18 Episode results for "King Faisal"

The Rapid Transformation of Saudi Arabia and the Feasibility of Vision 2030

The Men's Room

29:02 min | 1 year ago

The Rapid Transformation of Saudi Arabia and the Feasibility of Vision 2030

"Hey this is a heck Awadhi production. Hi there I'm not a Michelle and this is the men's room if you like this episode be sure to subscribe to the show so you can listen. Listen to all of our interviews with thought leaders from across the region. Today we're talking about Saudi Arabia. Everyone seems to have an opinion about Saudi. In fact it's probably the most controversial country in the Middle East right now from Tom. Schuman Rice to women's rights to massive economic reforms. There's a lot going on in the kingdom and we're fortunate enough to have our guest today. A senior your fellow at the King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies in Riyadh Dr Joseph Kennedy. Show Dr Cash Shell welcome to Tim. Thank you all right so it seems. Saudi Arabia is always in the headlines. These days in early November of course they announced that Aramco. The national oil production company is finally going public. It's been a longtime coming The plan was proposed back in two thousand sixteen and the Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman had set a target valuation of two trillion dollars and the actual valuation. Now looks to be about five hundred million dollars less than that And they're going ahead with that of course so was. NBS being overly ambitious assists in your opinion or did the value. Go down. And if so why well. Everybody is ambitious when it comes to the world's most important tint company and whether it is two trillion or one point five trillion dollar is really semantics at this point because over the of course of several years and decades the company will be re evaluated several times perhaps it was ambitious to start with two trillion and the investors will probably estimated to be less. But that's a matter of time and they will not be a shortage of investors into a Aramco. Saudi Arabia is determined to raise as much as they can and they probably will be successful the initial shares that will will put on the the market will be more than sufficient to raise plenty of money to address the questions that Saudi Arabia needs to address financially. Yes so well. Let's be be honest. Five hundred million dollars is not nothing. It's quiz significance a significant difference but the plan is to use the money to basically further the vision twenty thirty goals which include diversifying the economy away from oil so they're investing a lot in arts large real estate projects like those super futuristic city. They've plan called NEOM. Do you know anything about that. Well let's let's separate this. Let's divide this into several parts because obviously AMCOL is is a huge company and only less than maybe five percent of its of its value will be put on the market so therefore this is just part of a larger scheme of Mega Investments that Saudi Arabia is involved in. NEOM is one of them. But there are also several other major projects like a Khadijeh for example which has an entire entertainment city that is being built outside of Riyadh? Saudi Arabia is involved in massive transformation and and and as someone who is constantly observing. This first hand I can. I can vouch to the fact that the dynamic make environment in which the economy's moving with is going to be. It's going to take a long time for this to to To come to fruition so to speak it will take longtime to bring everybody on board. But it's a it's a work. In progress it will take. It will take years and decades to bring all of these investments together so we should not really look at Aramco as a one shot deal. It is not. It is part of a larger package off a lot of very sophisticated investments the country's changing and it's changing for the better because it needs to change for the better. It has lots of young people that needs to find work Creation of job is a priority creation of wealth is a priority as well so that future generations don't rely only on oil income but actually creative and dynamic to transform the economy into something much better than what what many people have dreamt about and brought so forth so the next step is to see whether or not all of these projects will materialize. We'll take time but what has to be optimistic so we were talking before the interview about the book that you just published specifically about this topic you you are expressing your ideas on how it may take much longer than what's expected so they have this target of twenty thirty and they have these sweeping changes. Is it feasible. I mean they're changing. A lot of things are building. I work as a managing editor as Mike at a lifestyle magazine and I get a lot of press releases about all the arts things is that they're investing in and also for example the they've allowed now concerts and Nicki Menaj was one of the Performers who was invited in June. I believe Is kind of ironic. Considering how women are expected to behave and dress in that country. And what's even more ironic as she's the one that decided not to perform so so this is just an example of how they've gone from zero to one hundred and very short period of time. What are your thoughts on and how it will progress from here? Both transformation as you said is dramatic a less than two years ago. The country was an ultra conservative society within two years. Norms are changing and even though the dress codes are still there but for the first time you see she actually Saudi women wearing normal dresses without the abaya. Now let's go back to us for second before one thousand nine hundred seventy nine. A KABAYA was an optional garment. A lot of Saudi women did not even bother to wear them only the wealthy could afford to wear says and they actually ward on their on their sleeves in not not the whole it. It was a fashion garment. Abet after one thousand nine hundred ninety nine and the events that occurred In that year where in attempt was made to take over the Holy Mosque in Mecca. The country became much more conservative. And until recently There were lots of social pressures. Not just a woman but also on men to behave in a certain way it was very dogmatic all of the sudden change overnight and for example. Let me give you one simple example example before two thousand seventeen you would see in the streets of Saudi Arabia. Lots of them would align the so-called religious police. Will you don't see them anymore. There are about one hundred twenty thousand of these men who used to a spread havoc throughout the country now. They're they're at home. There are still getting paid eight of course but they're not working because obviously the country no longer tolerates society no longer tolerates that kind of ultra conservatism. That doesn't mean that Saudi Arabia Abia has become a Western liberal democracy. But it is changing and that's one very important development. The other example that I could give you is the fact that segregation was a enorm- in the country men and women did not mingle especially. When they don't know each other today you can go to a restaurant and see couples pulls that are not Related mingling coworkers for example in the workplace who are essentially Having a meal and exchanging ideas India's so if the lot the very famous FDLR mixing that was that was a nominal in Saudi society. All of a sudden has changed dramatically. tickly now it is allowed so therefore lots of social changes are underway in the country. But having said all of this. The question that we have to ask ourselves tells is whether this is enough to satisfy the ambitions of young people and young people in the country about thirty forty forty percent of of society Less than twenty five years old. I mean if you look at the statistics of Saudi Arabia you will see that about fifty percent of people in Saudi Arabia. Abia less than thirty years old in those about forty to forty five percent are less than twenty five years old. These individuals have grown up in an entirely different in violent. This is the what's up generation the facebook generation. There are very much aware of what's going on the rest of the world. You cannot isolate them. And they're very ambitious ambitious. They'll want to change lots of things in the kingdom so therefore the challenge is to find out whether they can be satisfied whether their ambitions chance can be satisfied and the onus is on senior government officials and the bureaucracy in general to actually make sure that all of those was young. People's ambitions are met that is going to take time. It's not going to happen overnight. And this is really everybody's wish that it will occur ver- it will occur as fast as possible but people have to be patient to but let let's go back to the issue of women's rights of course is changing changing but there are still laws. I believe that women cannot leave their house unaccompanied. No that's that's that's not that's really propaganda. Really you don't WanNa you don't WanNa believe that kind of stuff. Women are unfortunately Arabic so I can't look at their actual let me assure you let me assure you looming can move around. They can get a passport. Passport passport can get passport now. They can have their pictures on the passport They can drive arrive now. They can do lots of things that they were not allowed to do. Just a few years ago. There are still restrictions in place for example in in divorce situations Shetty law are still very much applied so preference still goes to the male in that kind of society however however what is interesting is that for the first time you actually have female lawyers able to actually go in a court of law. Remember that this Sharia courts talking about Islamic legal proceedings where women were not allowed women lawyers were not even allowed to present cases and defend their clients. Now this is changing and you have young female lawyer sought allowed to actually go inside accord again. This is the long term process but the ball started rolling already. Yeah that's interesting because now you have the voice of a woman you know an opportunity for a woman's voice in those kinds of cases so it may change you do and I will not supplies for example that in the next phase you will have several of these female lawyers the venture to be appointed as judges too. I mean all of the legal system in the country is challenged today Shetty Aloe has us certain specific rules that must be accepted by everyone. This is still a Muslim country and it still follows the rules in place but again embarrassing evolution in the process. All of this is good. It will take time. So let's go back to this kind of investment in Arts and culture that's kind of that's part of also their diversification vacation and trying to boost tourism and the long term of course tourists enjoy arts and culture it gives a reason for them to visit But Arts Arts by definition is about self expression and we all know that Saudi Arabia is not especially tolerant of everyone having the rights is to express themselves in any which way they want. Of course. We're all familiar with the horrible. Assassination of Hush and of course There's also recent recent news in the US With twitter employees who were apparently paid by the Saudi government to spy on dissidents that were posting posting on twitter One of them actually was paid three hundred thousand dollars. A twenty thousand dollar gold watch just to be specific you know when you. Here's the numbers you ask yourself. What would I do that? And I'm sure a lot of people would say yes but the point is that they don't mess around when it comes to criticizing the regime despite all this opening up What would you think about that? Art is about self expression. There is no doubt about this but don't assume that this is not going on in the past. There were lots of Saudi artists who expressed themselves very clearly. But they did it in private differences. The difference is that now. They're allowed to be in the public eye as well now. You've asked me several questions at the same time. Put them together so let's separate berate them so that we can at least try to analyze them in a in an intelligent way. A young. Saudi artists are in the process of making themselves making themselves heard not just by outsiders by Saudis themselves now as I said earlier this is a very conservative paternalistic paternalistic society. So when you have. Let's say a young man. I'M NOT GONNA I'm not GonNa even touch a young woman situation although there are several Saudi women a a filmmakers who are now in the process of making films and so on but let's say a young Saudi artist a painter. Let's say or a sculpture a male who is trying and to present his artwork. Now this has to be accepted by society very conservative Society for him to Actually Express Express his artistic of US and beliefs. It's going to take some learning process as well on both sides. He has to learn how to express themselves l.. Conservative society and that Conservative society audience has got to accept the creativity that this young artist is presenting. This is a difficult process Let us not forget that in the previous songs. Gop Environment Lots of artists were also all burned at the stake because they were not accepted mental. Many paintings were burned along with the artists themselves. Into into and Pre Renaissance Europe. We have the same problems. The renaissance came as a change everything. Saudi Arabia is going through a new renaissance right now. It's not going gonNA happen overnight but already. There is enough fulfill room for for people to express themselves. Let's sorry to interrupt. Let's not forget that you. They've already executed a lot of people this year. Under which more than in previous years I believe actually does not very true. The executions are going so in very much down and again the executions are the result of Sharia Onnell and Sharia law is very specific for thieves for murderers and lots of Criminals who engage in activities that are that are judged by lawyer by by a judge That in fact this is the punishment but again. This is not as prevalent as people assume. In fact there are more executions in Iran and Saudi Arabia and nobody talks about the fact that these are taken place in Iran Human Woman Rights Watch and Amnesty International regularly. Publish these numbers. Thanks interesting to look at those numbers absolutely absolutely and if I'm not mistaken. Saudi Arabia has executed about one hundred fifty people in the past year according to the two thousand eighteen whereas Iran has topped up to one thousand figure so therefore I mean again. The comparison is silly. I'm not trying to make a comparison but we we have lots of anti-saudi audie propaganda going on around the world and I don't dismiss the fact that Janelle Hustle. She was assassinated in Istanbul onto October. Two thousand eighteen. I mean this is a fact it occurred and the Saudi government has actually acknowledged the fact that one of its own citizens was executed in. Its own a consular office. They're not denying it and they've arrested a whole bunch of people and several of them are on trial. It's going to take a while for all the evidence to come through. It will come up. We'll see what happens. Well what's most shocking about that event I don't think is just the fact that he was killed but the fact that the reason for which he was killed which was his criticism of the regime he was in fact a very prominent well to journalists. That was just doing his job and expressing his opinions. which is you know in the Russell? In many parts of the world part of journalists duty and it's accepted by society and its comes par for the course for most governments were. So it'd be something that would be Part it should be part of this kind of developmental process that they're going through. It is part of the development process. But I've devoted to chapters in my recent study Eddie. Can you remind us the name of the Book Abia in Two Thousand Thirty which was published by the US on Institute in Seoul Korea available online for anyone to download. It's GONNA GONNA come out in Arabic very shortly. King Faisal Center for Research in Slavic Studies in Riyadh Devoted to chapters Kashoggi's case in this particular Asia minor was a friend of mine We worked together for a while. I'm normally very well And and I know that he expressed his us but there was a lot more to Jamal story. Laurie than people assume the fact that he worked for the Washington Post and and he wrote a total of twenty articles for the Washington. Post over the course of one year for for which he got paid ten thousand dollars five hundred dollars a piece and Jamal was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood living. Can I discuss all the details tails you know. Lots of lots of questions about his fiancee about his Egyptian wife about his divorced wife tremendously complicated fellow and usually. That's not a reason to for country and I'm not saying that okay. I'm not saying that was the reason. But I'm saying that was much more than people assume and even though I am a champion of Jamaa as well but one has to also understand the political environment in which she operated he called literally for transformation formation of Saudi Arabia and he worked against the government of Saudi Arabia to a certain extent taking money from other countries again. All of these details are in the book. I'm not trying to justify his killing by by any shred of the of the imagination. It was a horrible murder but there is a lot more to the story than people people assume. And I invite everyone to actually go to the ASSAN. ASEAN US on institute webpage and download the report and read it for themselves. Of Of course there always is more to the story is death is a loss And I'm fortunately it happened. There is nothing can you can do about. It is too late now for him but Saudi Arabia will continue to prosper. Okay so the book that you were just talking about. That's your latest book you've written extensively about the kingdom and you you're Armenian originally do you spend most of your time in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia and Lebanon now. Of course I've lived most of my life if in the United States but now I commute between Saudi Arabia and Lebanon and The also teach. I believe I don't teach anymore. I stopped teaching. All I do now is right right and And think more importantly so my family members tell me you do three things in life you read you think and you're right right. Why don't you do a fourth thing and I will eventually? What do you think that will be a gardener? Probably when I retired so as a as a fellow at the KFC are how do you call it. The king between farce holds onto search on Islamic studies. So you always name it with the whole with all the words you don't shorten it. Not just the King Faisal Institute or will sell center is a world world known institution despite the King Faisal Foundation that it was established after the king was assassinated in one thousand nine hundred seventy five. It's a it's a philanthropic organization. It is a nonprofit organization and We there are several researchers who are trying to do good work As much as we can. What is your mission there My mission is to write My mission is to give opportunities. He's too young Saudis as much as I can share my knowledge with them and to do research underground And I have written as you said several books on. Saudi Arabia allows me to have a home in the kingdom and I can interact with both members of the ruling family what society at large what intellect intellectuals university members I attend conferences and Write papers write books. That's what that's what I do. And do you feel that you can be critical in that role because you're kind of in you know inside. The country and interacting with the inner circle are can be critical. I when when I was hired for the job obviously I was aware of the fact that I would be working in Saudi Arabia but in the Pasta. Several years I've been there since two thousand eleven. No one has ever told me. Don't say this or don't write back I am careful in terms of what I write but it doesn't. It's not because I'm afraid I am careful because I don't want to write something that that will be proven to be totally wrong. And I want to base my writing on credible information that I gather without having either a pro all or anti-saudi prospective my interest is to actually think critically about Saudi Arabia. NC transformations that are going on. First Time I went to Saudi. How did ABO was in one thousand nine hundred eighty three and I have seen in my lifetime? Many many changes in the country. So it's my duty as a scholar to actually look critically to clear the country and see what's happening. And if I can present this message in my writings that would have been an accomplishment already and hopefully it is so the kingdom has these incredible ambitious plans With Vision Twenty thirty so by twenty thirty were expecting to see the big plans come to fruition including NEOM and Keita's that we do think that they will be able to complete these enticing they will be as Incredible as the plans indicate. And do you think they'll be able to To staff these with Saudis. Who are not not necessarily used to these kind of very ambitious projects will those are the challenges that the leadership faces to be able to actually deliver on their promises says and there is a great deal of work to do ahead it might not all come to fruition by twenty thirty it might take longer but that's your objective that people have have sit have set for themselves now? Let's be clear about something. Saudi Arabia is part of the G. Twenty it is a global economy. GDP is almost almost seven hundred fifty billion dollars per year. We're not talking about Zimbabwe. We're talking about a real country. And it is a a major oil-producing it is one of the world's most important it holds one of the world's most important reserves of about two hundred fifty billion barrels of proven reserves and oil over. The years is going to become even more valuable because it will not be wasted to produce electricity and transportation. It will be used for important things. like like medical facilities and and that kind of stuff so we will see what happens. The challenges however need to be addressed in total. They cannot be addressed in isolation the as far as I can tell they are three major challenges ahead for them. The most important is the the legal system. The Saudi legal system has to be updated it has to be adapted to the environment in which the world expect Saudi Arabia to be the second important. Let me stop you there. Do you mean by that that you believe that they should no longer have a sharia law. That's impossible because sustain a Muslim country but that doesn't mean that Sharia law is Not opened for UPDATES and reforms if you would like but but that's not up to me to decide that's for the the Saudis to decide the religious clerics and leadership they will have to address dramatic transformation Sherry. The law is not written in stone. It can be. It can be adapted as it is in many Muslim countries around the world. The second challenge that they face is to make sure sure that the socio economic environment that people live in and grow up and is able to accommodate all of these young demands. Young People's olds demands so that they can address them in a very frank and open way and the third challenge. That people face is to allow a free enterprise is the creation of wealth. That's very important. People have got to express themselves to be able to have the abilities to create wealth without the creation of wealth. Saudi society as part of the global economic system will not be as successful as people assume. I am optimistic. Stick I mean one can one can look at at the glass half full or half empty And and and reach some kind of conclusion one has to be optimistic. Addictive leadership is aware of these challenges and that they have the onus to actually deliver on what they're talking about maybe it will not all occur in twenty thirty maybe it will take longer but the transformation has already started. The train has left the station and there is no turning back. Okay this last question. Considering the current events in the region including what's happening in Lebanon In Qatar and Yemen give us a brief overview of what you think. The geopolitical situation might look like ten years from now Quite different from what it is. Today I think the confrontation that we see between de Out of world and Iran will end by twenty thirty The the the attempt by Iran to hijack data world is going to fail it. It is not going to succeed for a very simple reason and Iranians have not greedy. I'm I'm surprised that Iranians because their good students of history. But somehow they have they seem to have forgotten that Ottoman Empire try to rule over the Arab world and after five hundred years. They showed that they could not dominate me. Nate data world. It was a total failure. Ottoman Empire collapsed and the ad world reemerged for what it was previous to the autumn empire so therefore the the Iranians are not gonna be able to impose their will on a massive five hundred million people from the Atlantic. Today Arabian Arabian Sea. or the Indian an Indian Ocean so therefore we will see the transformation occur. It will be bloody. It will not be peaceful what we are seeing in studio what we're seeing in an era what we are seeing in Yemen and now in Lebanon are this country is going to be able to tolerate the kind of interferences that the Iranians are constantly constantly. Doing my view is that the Iranians are not going to be able to deliver on their on their wishes and defeating that Iran now controls four Arab up capitals and the sinking of the fifth. One down the line. That's not going to happen for by twenty thirty. I think we'll be home. They will take care of themselves and they will leave the Arab world at its own pace to transform itself as best as possible and already as we speak today We are seeing demonstrations restarting in Iran. Just like it wasn't two thousand nine because the people of Iran as well are very much opposed to what the the clerics are doing so wait and see what happens in twenty thirty. I'm optimistic that they will not be able to dominate the ATTLEBORO. Well these are certainly fascinating times. Thank you so much for your insights your very valuable insights. That's all folks if you enjoyed your time with us be sure to get yourself the free subscription to t- M._R.. On whatever platform you're on we love Heiko Dot Com of course and you can also find us on instagram and on twitter. Have a good one.

Saudi Arabia Saudi government Saudi society Aramco NEOM Iran US King Faisal Center for Researc Riyadh Middle East twitter Michelle Actually Express Express Schuman Rice Salman Tim Lebanon But Arts Arts
One Example of Fighting Back

Tribe Talk Connection

09:41 min | 11 months ago

One Example of Fighting Back

"This tribe talk through podcasts. Such as this one webinars interactive online forums and firsthand experiences from current college students about what campus life is like today. Dr talk provides students with everything they need to know before they go to college. It introduces college students to the myriad of opportunities to build a meaningful jewish life on campus. Try talk also provides rising college students with an understanding of anti semitism anti zionism and anti israeli sentiment that they may face on campus. Hi there jordan rich and with me today dr. Rachel fish founding executive director of the foundation to combat anti-semitism. Rachel as a student at harvard. Some years back you encountered just what it is that we're talking about these podcasts. A series of incidents that clearly needed to be addressed. So please share that story with us. All there's a lot here to be learned when i was a student at harvard divinity school which is the oldest graduate institution at harvard. My first day of orientation was september eleventh and as you can imagine no one knew what was going on. We knew there were planes. That left from logan airport and that this horror happened in new york city and right outside the pentagon and pennsylvania area but we didn't have details and the divinity school which is a school that brings people from all over the world all different ethnicities all different backgrounds. We all came together for our first day of orientation and what we heard from the dean was that we really didn't know what had happened. But we could assume that. This had something to do with israel and i was taken completely aback. Now i'm a. I'm a girl from. Tennessee and boston was totally new to me at the time and in my mind harvard was this idealized place that no one could touch and i was shocked to hear someone say something. That was completely unfounded particularly in front of people who knew nothing about what he was suggesting. After the events of september eleventh there was a huge uptick in anti semitism coming from the arab world. If you recall there were television shows on state-sponsored television from egypt bringing together protocols of the elders of zion there were discussions that the israeli intelligence forces were the ones who were behind the attacks on september eleventh and because of the increase in anti semitism. I thought that the divinity school should organize a conference on global anti semitism and that there should be a place in which you would have this conversation. We had the conference. We have variety of individuals. Come and speak from a few different jewish organizations in advocacy organizations and from professors from within harvard university as well and one of the individuals who spoke mentioned that harvard had accepted funds from the president of the united arab emirates and that he was promoting anti-americanism in. Tim and i remember sitting in that room and looking around and most students weren't doing anything they didn't really seem to pay attention to what was said. And i recall that a physically sat up and wanted to know more and i went to the individual and i said can you tell me more about this and said we're trying to do some research and maybe you can do some and see what you learn. I actually remember on my way home that evening. Calling my parents. And i told my parents what i had heard and my father's response to me was. So what are you gonna do about it. And i felt a sense of responsibility then to do something and i began doing research and i wanted to understand what the relationship was between the president of the united arab emirates guy. I never heard of shack zayid bin. Sultan al yon and harvard divinity school. I pursued research for several months. And what i learned was that harvard had accepted funds from the president of the united arab emirates to create a professorship a position to have a fulltime faculty member who teach about islamic studies and teach about the arab world. I can tell you as someone who's studied this that that was a much needed position. I was extremely excited for that position. But i had now concerns about who would be hired. And then i began to do research about president of the uae. And what i learned was that this was not a democracy. He had ruled the country uncontested for you know three decades now. One of his sons rules the country that this was a place that had major human rights violations that this was a with migrant workers camel jockeying with children that were being stolen from bangladesh that this was a place That the government controlled every aspect of society and there were major inequality in terms of wealth and education. The ziyad center which was the major think tank of the arab league and supported by Zaidan one of his family members was also promoting anti americanism and anti semitism through their think tank and think tank for all the high school students. Listening is a place where you actually engage in thinking about ideas that could be used in order to make the world a better place but this place was actually inviting anti semitic professors from king faisal university in saudi arabia calling for the resurrection of the blood libel of jews. Using the blood of non jews for their holiday pastries they also invited individuals. Who suggested that the mossad. The israeli intelligence was behind the attacks of september eleventh. And they Presidents of the uae. saieed also gave the financial defense to a holocaust denier in france where it's illegal to deny the atrocities of the holocaust and he provided the money to support his legal case. So this was not the kind of place that was promoting positive change in the world and everything that was being done at. The center was being translated into a arabic to be disseminated throughout the arab world for educational purposes educational in air quotes with highly problematic. I brought all of this information to the dean of the divinity school to the university administration. And i asked them to return the funds. It was five million dollars and to seek reputable. It was going to be a total five million dollars was two and a half million dollars that was given and i wanted them to seek reputable funding in order to create the position. And i have to tell you. I had very little support. I had a couple of friends who are willing to help me. But that's really all. I needed the best advice i ever received was from one of my professors ruth weiss and she said all you need is a gang you need one or two people who care about this as much as you do and you just it your mission. So that's what i did and i led a campaign To have harbored return the funds and seek reputable funding and put a lot of pressure on them in order to do that and the ultimate end to the story is harvard. Returned the two and a half million dollars after about a year and they never took the remaining two and a half million dollars. That would be coming to them from the president of the uae and they sought different funding to create the position which they did and they now have a professor who heads position. Often is the case. Rachel it's follow the money in terms of institutions. Like that rachel. It's truly an inspiring story. What lessons can impart to upcoming students and students in college right now. What lessons from your own experience would you like to share. So i think the lessons learned really are starting with what my father said to me. What are you going to do about it. It was the sense that i had a responsibility. If i cared enough to actually have. It caused me physically to sit up or to stir something inside my gut that it was my job to figure out what to do about it too is that it really is a gang effort. You don't need many people but you have to make this your mission and you don't let go of it and i think three is that every individual has the ability to make that difference. Nothing i did was extraordinary. Anyone could have done it. But it's the fact that i was willing to do it and i think young people today need to remember. They have that potential and capacity inside of them. Rachel can't thank you enough for your expertise your time and most importantly our heartfelt concern for students. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for me. Our guest on the podcast. It's been dr rachel fish. Founding executive director of the foundation to combat anti-semitism. We invite you to subscribe download rate and review our podcast. And please tell your friends about us. Send us your questions and feedback. We'd love to hear from you. The website is tribe. Talk connection dot com. This is jordan rich take care.

harvard uae divinity school harvard divinity school jordan rich Rachel fish zayid bin Sultan al yon logan airport ziyad center Rachel Zaidan king faisal university pentagon saieed new york city pennsylvania dean
NPR News: 07-20-2020 11AM ET

NPR News Now

04:39 min | 10 months ago

NPR News: 07-20-2020 11AM ET

"Live from NPR news Korva Coleman Congress returns from its summer recess today at the top of the to do list another corona virus relief package it will be the fifth piece. Of Legislation Congress may pass to confront the pandemic NPR Susan. Davis reports. It's likely the last before November's elections Senate. Majority leader Mitch McConnell says Congress will pass the legislation before they adjourn on August tenth for the rest of the summer back in May, House Democrats passed three trillion dollar package that included one trillion, any two states Senate Republicans opposed that bill and its price tag, but have yet to offer a counterproposal. McConnell's expected to. To unveil it this week, he said the Senate bill will prioritize jobs, kids and healthcare. He'd like to keep the cost to around one trillion. McConnell says his proposal will have a heavy emphasis on additional money to help. The Nation schools reopened this fall with in-person learning Susan Davis NPR news Washington more than one hundred forty thousand people have died of coke nineteen in the US. That's according to Johns Hopkins University more than three and a half. Million people have been infected with the virus in New York Governor Andrew Cuomo sharply warned young people. Crowds of people congregated especially in new. York City over the weekend. You can get sick at in your twenties. You can get sick. You can die in twenties. The governor said failing to socially distance during the pandemic as a reckless move by anyone including young people. Georgia Democrats have until this afternoon to decide who will replace John Lewis on the ballot in November after the congressman's death last week as Georgia public broadcasting's Stephen, foul reports state. Law makes the timeline very tight. John Lewis is a man who cannot be replaced, but the Democratic Party of Georgia has the name another fifth congressional district nominee. The State Party put out a call for interested candidates who would almost certainly win in this heavily. Democratic district covers it lands. And thirty people applied notable party leaders including Atlanta. Mayor Lance bottoms and former gubernatorial nominees Stacey Abrams. We'll select a handful of list who will make their case to a larger committee today? State Law requires a decision to be delivered to the Secretary of State's office by four thirty, PM Governor Ryan Count must also set a special election to fill the remainder of Lewis's term through the beginning of. Of January for NPR news I'm Stephen. Fowler and Atlanta federal marshalls are joining the FBI investigating a deadly attack on the family of a federal judge in North Brunswick. New Jersey on Sunday the son, of US District Judge Esther Solace in the door to someone dressed as a delivery person yesterday, and was shot and killed her husband was shot and injured judge solace was not wounded in the incident. On Wall Street the Dow Jones. Average is down sixty seven points. The Nasdaq is up one hundred ten. This is NPR. Saudi Arabia's king. Salman has been admitted to a hospital in the capital Riyadh NPR's Bruce. Sherlock has more. Saudi Arabia's royal court says the eighty four year old, King Salman has an inflamed gallbladder. The statement carried on the country's official press agency says he's undergoing medical tests at the king. Faisal Specialist Hospital in the capital Riyadh. King Salman acceded to the throne and became the Custodian of Islam's two holiest sites in two thousand, fifteen, his eldest son, the Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman is next in line and has been the country's de facto ruler in recent years wreath, Sherlock and PR news fame. Chinese legal scholar has been fired by prestigious baking university NPR's Emily Fang reports. The professor has been a strong critic of China's handling of the pandemic. Pandemic she jungmann was detained in early July and held in police custody for six days, says now he has been released, but his employer Tsinghua University says it is fired shoe setting a two thousand, Eighteen Ministry of Education provision that forbids teachers undermining China's ruling Communist Party. She is a fierce critic of leader Xi, Jinping decrying the country's departure from wool of law, and it's growing authoritarianism NPR's Emily Chang reporting from Beijing. The US East. Coast will swelter today. The National Weather Service has issued heat advisories from South Carolina stretching up to Maine there are dangerous heat warnings now in place for Delaware parts of Pennsylvania and much of New Jersey Heat indices according to the service could rise to near one hundred nine or ten degrees today. I'm KORVA COLEMAN NPR news.

NPR Mitch McConnell King Salman John Lewis US Congress Senate NPR Saudi Arabia Susan Davis Judge Esther Solace Riyadh Atlanta Stephen Democratic Party of Georgia Governor Andrew Cuomo Pandemic professor Prince Mohammad bin Salman
03 | Dangerous Circus

The Eleventh

43:07 min | 1 year ago

03 | Dangerous Circus

"This is an ABC podcast. Just a warning. There's some strong language in this episode Kendra is dailies foggiest city in fact you can find funding. Canberra about fifty days of the year and being number one on the foggy. Cd least has some really knowing side effects like in particular huge delays. At the airport there was some fog so the planes were delayed it was during one of those delays that Genie. Morosi found himself with nothing to do. She'd been working in Canberra as a political stuff and she was hitting home to Sydney for a break. I will around the airport toward bookshop because that was my favorite show and looked around for something to read when this book fell into my hands. What do you mean literally? Well I was looking at this thing fell and you call it a call. It was the client revolution. Jim Can't judy knew him was he. Was that bookish. Charismatic Labor Impe. Who'd been a permanent leader of the antiwar movement? I have always said if I were twenty years old replied to going to the army under conscription in relation to like Vietnam. I would not go now. That Whitlam was elected cans was a government minister and journey was holding his book. She took this as a sign by believe in synchronicity and it obviously was the book I was meant to read from page. One just took me and I went. Boarded the plane when it is ready. Got Home and stayed up all night reading. This book was so fascinated by the book that she became consumed with curiosity about the man who wrote it and so I definitely needed to meet him when she got back to Canberra. She arranged a meeting with Jim. Kittens as a political staff as she made lots of meetings with other ministers. But this was the first time she'd made one for personal reasons. Jimmy Walk David Cans office and found a disorganized row of people lined up in chairs waiting to see him. No one has a definite appointment. It's like Frisk. Come first serve and I arrive and they waved me in. Jim Cans had been sitting behind the desk but he stood up quickly when genie walked in a very attractive man which is unlike most of the politicians had seen before a youthful demeanour journey. Pepe Jim with questions about his book and Jim asked her questions to instantly the to hit it off. Our conversation went on for an hour. I was a bit concerned about all these little waiting to see him eventually. Jeanie said she had to go but there was still so much more to talk about so Jeannie went out on a limb and she asked him to have dinner with her like straight off to work that night. I would say I'm fairly assertive. Jim said yes. What he didn't know was that he was about to embark on a spiritual journey a private psychological and sexual awakening that would coincide with the peak of his political power and his elevation to treasurer and Deputy Prime Minister of Australia energies. The Life Force and opened up a whole different university kind of blew his mind but while Jim cans was discovering himself. The government was beginning a descent eating hails. Greatest know why you got Jon. Demands for energy ought to be Mitt. Drastic new steps must be taken. He was booed and heckled. All four learn is imminent. I'm Alex Man and this is the eleven so you've heard how the Whitlam Government was off to a rocky start in terms of its relationship with the US and in terms of its relationship with the security establishment but Whitlam didn't get elected so that he could please Nixon the CIA. He got elected so that he could implement his big program of reforms for Australia. But he is the thing about Gough Whitlam. He was good on the vision thing. In fact he was so good on the vision thing that sometimes it seemed like he wanted to avoid the realities of everyday politics. The compromises the concessions. Paying attention to the optics. He wanted to rise above it all and you can hear this in the stories that people tell about him like the one about the time. He was approached by a young media. Baron on the rise. A Guy Code Rupert Murdoch. Rupert was left inclined in those days in my early association with I was. I'd Martin John Men Judy Rupert Murdoch. Well you actually heard from John minutes you in episode one. He was there outside. Parliament houses his family arrived. Whitland delivered that famous speech but at this point now story. Many years working for Rupert. Murdoch running his fledgling national newspaper Cold Ds. Riley what he was doing that The establishment of these straight win a national paper a different Soda Voice in the country Woman wasn't part of the establishment of it was quite refreshing to be working middle. At least today Murdoch's name is associated with right wing news networks like Fox News in the US but back then things were very different then mimic was an outsider trying to shake up the conservative establishment and when Whitlam became a chance of winning the nineteen seventy two election. Middlesex are an opportunity he saw woodland and was anxious to ride to pack with him in the lead up to wetlands election. John New took it upon himself to become a sort of match. Mak- the Whitlam and Murdoch. He wanted them to spend time together but Whitlam wasn't very interested in striking up. A Brits Job Nine to golf and say we want you to be socially nice and pleasant. Come along to this to three on the habit with Rupert and Golf said. Come right on to fucking busy. I'm too busy. And they said well Margaret do migrant was golf's wife and I said no Margaret will do. You've gotta come. I've told migratory. Said she understood. She understood gough as well. Anyhow he came along on it. Was it worked? Well Ruben threw his lot in in the campaign. He gave us free advertising. This is Eric Welch. Whitlam's Press Secretary and he was a part of the campaign team that got whittling elected. Nobody outside the live Nepali Albuquerque balloon inside the body did as much as Ruben. Eric Walsh was convinced that keeping miracle inside would be useful like John Managerial. He tried to ensure their relationship continued. He advised Whitlam to nurture the friendship. Walsh tried again and again and eventually he got Whitland to agree this time for dinner so I rang. Ribbit Ribbit said that John Wheeler dealer for three million ruble laugh but on the way there whitland bump into someone else he knew so he ditched report and went to dinner with the other guy instead re realized he was never. GonNa get anywhere. It seemed like Whitlam had decided. He didn't need medics help. So the attempts have matchmaking. Never GonNa Work Often. Lock him at all. Skeptical of in keeps his distance. And you said to me. I'm not going to be beholden to anyone considering. What lay ahead a supportive news. Baron could have been handy but we didn't care you know. He was the crash crash through politician with the beautiful arrogance. Paper used to say I look at it and it almost seems like he was so focused on implementing his program of reforms that it was is he didn't see the need for a strategy to ensure his own political survival up until this point it had worked well for him. I mean he was the prime minister after all but that was about to become a huge problem because Whitlam's mission was soon to be interrupted by two huge scandals of his government's making on top of all of that a global economic crisis in late nineteen seventy three an economic trimmer began in the Middle East and started rippling towards Australia. And it's one year old government. The price of oil and therefore petrol was skyrocketing. They called it the oil crisis. You'll experts warn that if demands for energy ought to be Mitt. Drastic new steps must be taken otherwise. The crisis would hit disaster level in Australia. Unemployment and inflation started rising. The next few months will be quite difficult. We're all in this together not just as Australians but as members of a world community all experiencing times of profound difficulty to get the long post war boom years were over the nation shaping suite of policies that Gough Whitlam had created during the good times was now facing serious economic headwinds but the program was the program and Gough Whitlam Press on regardless while the opposition started to press their advantage. Inflation is latest greatest. It's right for twenty years Yup. The opposition blocked Whitlam's agenda in the Senate where they have the numbers to knock-back legislation. The government couldn't get anything done so Whitlam decided to call an early election but this time there were few people in his Corna the business establishment to others vishwa getting highly critical of Whitlam at the Nineteen seventy-two Election News Baron. Rupert Murdoch had almost been an extension of the party's campaign but now he was running straight down the middle. He didn't make a final decision on at the time he was getting a Bob each way it was left reasonably say. They're running. A little. Bit is fifty percents which is an election nineteen seventy four began promising wife. Whitland and once again half destroying naval at least for the life out in the House of Representatives but as the count wore on it became clear that the election hadn't quite worked out the way Whitlam had planned Wieland. Did Win the election. But this time by a small margin nonsense down to five and in reality the wind simply laid the groundwork for his final demise because while the voters had reaffirmed his authority to govern he still didn't have a majority in the Senate and the opposition was as determined as ever to block his agenda. It would lead to style night. That would eventually cause a constitutional crisis. Willem did something else. After the election that would have big consequences down the track he elevated Jim cans the socialist leaning Librarian type from Labor's left to Deputy Prime Minister and eventually treasurer. Congratulations on your new portfolio. Thank you very much obviously going to be a very difficult time ahead for a very difficult. Yes the fact that a Socialist anti-vietnam war activist was now one step away from the prime ministership caused panic in some quarters. He was the guy that Nixon and Kissinger one most worried about. But JIM CANS had bigger problems. Close to home. Domestically he was in charge of an economy in freefall business. Prophets were collapsing. There was a housing boom on the verge of bust an industrial disputes and unemployment. On the rise and it was now up to Jim Cans somehow navigate all of that and implement Whitlam's program. Are you hopeful that you will be able to cure the problems? Besetting the economic climate here. Well I think it's my objective to contribute as much as I can the carrying of those problems. Yes but jim cans seemed to have other things on his mind as well he'd been meeting regularly with journey Marucci. The woman had come to him about his book and the two had grown close so close in fact that he decided to hire her as his principal. Private secretary that's equivalent these days of a chief of staff and the media went off. A great deal has been made out in the press about your friendship with Dr Games. Were against you. Taking the Arbat shocked at the reaction which which was relentless back then. Australian politics was even blow Kia and whiter than it is today and at that time. This certainly wasn't anyone else like genie. She was born in Shanghai Vistas. She was toll and she was a woman. It seems. That's all anyone wanted to talk about. Well forty-one Miss Junie. Morosi looks more like nine teen tall. Slim and stunningly attractive. She has the blood of nine different nationalities Anna veins and have looked anything to go by. He thrives on the mall wherever she went. She was confronted with Tay Bulletins and newspaper headlines Screaming. Her name was bit unnerving to drive cross Sydney and see my name on posters and pretty soon the scandal surrounding her head. It's very Morosi affair now looking back. It's like an allison wonderland you know. It was so ridiculous from my point of view on this too heavy. Whatever the media reaction to genie's appointment Whitlam himself didn't seem to worried. I have never mentioned The suitability of Miss macy's employment to any of MY MINISTERS. Whitlam said it was Jim's business whom he heart but his office is staff. Hate me with stuff. Eric Walsh was Williams. Press Secretary very good looking to dip such a senior position was immature and hopeless by Jeannie and Jim were married and Jim denied that the relationship was sexual. Whatever the case at a time when the treasurer was supposed to be busy trying to address rising inflation and unemployment. Whitlam staff were worried that the whole thing. The government look silly the idea. It turned this racy into his principal. Private secretary when he's deputy. Prime Minister was plenty ridiculous as you might have picked up. Eric Walsh has a pretty salty. Turn of phrase. I'll tell you what they give us this but I remember mentioning Golfers Blur. An embarrassment was go said. La Mans constructed sixty six. It was embarrassing for the government. Your deputy prime minister as we. I be like a schoolboy when Jim cans actually was a schoolboy. He leaves a kind of spot in life. Cans grew up with an absent father and a mother who avoided physical affection. His relationship with his mother was sort of functional cans inherited a strong work ethic and a healthy dose of self repression. He dedicated himself to public service at the expense of his own desires. He'd spent his life doing the right thing being a good Christian being kind being helpful and he was well rewarded for. I mean you know to get to being acting prime minister. Where do you go from there? The answer to that question. Jim Cans was a deep psychological journey with journey moise as his guide. She helped him realize that while he'd spent his life studying social movements and class struggle he'd been neglecting another struggle. The struggle going on inside him. Junie Moose the only person that I can talk to. Who would develop my thinking? Now what I learned from her line with psychology unless you understand serey of human character and behavior you can understand nothing. She was the only one who brought that to me. Then when Junie? Morosi started teaching jim how to embrace those parts of himself. That he'd repressed. That's when Janine Jim started going deep and Junie introduced him to the philosophy of Wilhelm Reich. I realized I had the discovers in life energy. He discovered that the function of the orgasm is to maintain an energy equilibrium. Reich was a psychoanalyst. Who WORKED WITH FREUD? His best now in his attempts to trap orgasmic. Sexual Energy. In boxes as you can hear in that Recording Reich wasn't out there than journey was a big fan of his work well tex full energies to life force. It opened up a whole different university fuel luck to him kind of blew his mind but there was more to write than just six in a box. Junie says it was Reich psychology that got Jim thinking about his own childhood. Yes there was a whole part of his life. That nola job through Reich's writings Ginny Toilet Jim. That there was room for him to think about his own psychology. He's desires even while dedicating himself to public causes once. He opened his mind to that possibility he flew. It was the beginning of an immensely transformative period for Jim. I think he felt more liberated from a cage. She did not know he was in case he was still wondering decades later cans admitted in a radio interview. What everyone had suspected that he and Jeannie did have a sexual relationship? Outside the German and Jeannie bubble. The economy was tanking notably despondent for the third month in succession unemployment has again increased economic crisis. Like this should be priority number one for treasurer some Jim. Kansas colleagues urged him to sack Junie. Morosi and concentrate on his work. But Tim cans basically told them to get stuffed. He said this is terribly unjust. And it's my business whom I appoint as far as Jeannie and Jim. What can send. The uproar was because genie was a woman in a powerful position and to give into it would send a message to war. The height is that they'd been right so instead of folding Jimmy Jim Double Down. Instead of avoiding the media which obviously hadn't worked Sipho. They went on the front foot. Journey did a fate shared with women's Day and GM spoken data with a reporter about the nature of his relationship with genie. He denied again that the relationship was sexual but to work with people closely. He said you do need to have a kind of love for them. We love each other. This got to be Love in enough his if it is to work. Of course you've got to love your work. Little Love the people that you were and to me. The sexual overtones of the whole attack on me was convenient for them. It's not their business joining Jim. Were making this sort of ethical point in the abstract that in in a gala -Tarian Society. One must have kind of love for one's fellow human and GM had that genie but the nuance of that argument. Got Kind of lost in the media coverage then the headline in the Sun newspaper just had the words my love for genie with an image of genie in a swimsuit. That's the sound of a research file that we have here. The office of all of the articles written about Jeannie Monroe see from the seventy S. The kind of sexism and racism to be honest three a lot of these stories. Just like it hits you in the face. They publish these fighters of hair in swimsuit. They call him miss. Jeanie it is. I mean it's totally outrageous. And the fact that this file is a thick gives you a sense of just how frenzied the media coverage was at the time you know people would come up to me and insult me to my famous street in public people would come up to you. What would they say slut? No or some Asian Bitch. That sort of thing. Even I couldn't couldn't believe the the intensity with which they handed me you'd think all of this would have been enough to wedge the two of them apart but no matter what the newspapers were saying about them how bad the economy was tanking. Or what problems the government was having. Genie decided to tough it out. I lived through World War Two in the Philippines. I'd had to go for days without food. This wasn't going to threaten my life. This was a piece of cake journey. Decided that she wasn't going anywhere There was another scandal that would eventually make the cycled Mirai. Cfl Look like a minor distraction. But before I get to that we need to talk about Whitlam for a second because in the end all of this comes back to him in some way. The thing is Whitland gave his ministers a lot of room to move them all some people. So this is a good thing. By the end of nineteen seventy four. The government was really starting to look missy and at a time when. Whitlam needed all of his ministers to be working towards the same goal. It felt like the opposite was happening that they were pulling in different directions. Instead of acting as a cohesive team and Whitlam same-day the powerless to stop them or tidally indifferent to the damage they are causing. Golf wasn't all that good. On personal relations and testing people. Whitlam needed some help and he got it from John Mini Jody. He had very strong ideas. himself but he wasn't good particularly good at managing stuff. That was my experience. Mitchell had been working for Rupert Murdoch but he gave it up to work for the government. He was hired not on wetlands personal staff but as a senior public servant. He was installed as the head of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet. He said about trying to improve the way that the ministers interacted and made decisions but he basically walked into a burning building and not only that John Manager was about to witness the beginnings of this other big scandal and for the government. This scandal never really went away. This second scandal started with a big dream for Australia's future it was like nineteen seventy four and the man with the dream was a guy called. Rex. Khanna ERECTS CONNOR was administered resources. And he hit a grand vision was a big man. Physically politically was described as a strangler. And what does that mean? I think many people decided that wouldn't physically tangle with rex connor rex connor told US Riley of that. The government was going to take back control about natural resources and mineral wealth full on the ship and control of coal oil and all other fuel and energy resources to do this. He wanted the Australian government or at least Australian companies to control the resources industry. He was convinced the doing this would help. Protect the country from global crises. Like the oil shock boost government revenues and help fund the. Government's ambitious social agenda. He had this vision frustration that few people had then and Berkeley. No have today basically. He believed that we should be getting a better return for our sources. Energy is the kate of the future. It will be the major economic issue of the next twenty years rex. Connor wanted the government involved in doing it. All Developing Mont a major gas pipeline electrification of railways and rail access to ports nuclear waste processing. Facility was very expensive ambitious program. The government was already spending a lot of money. The government was embarked on a very ambitious social welfare program costing money. Housing Education Medicare improvement of pensions legal pie increasingly golf kind to the view that couldn't sustain that level all public expenditure and then add on top of the funding of major projects rex. Connor realized that he needed to find the money elsewhere. So we thought maybe some private individual or company would lend money to the government at a pretty good right. He was in the market for loan a huge loan and it was around this time. That ONE GOVERNMENT MINISTER. Who was close with REX? Sniff of someone offering a very big loan and this minister clip the same at the nineteen. Seventy four gration. You not gone to that me and my wife an aspiring property developer. Jerry courageous was working the crowd and across the dance floor. He saw the government minister. Whose name was Clyde Cameron Win. And you'd better come home. Put a coffee tonight. So Clyde Cameron turns up for supper at Jerry's house after the bull they get chatting Jerry says he knows a guy he has a sped two hundred million he wants to invest Jerry. Says it's a pity but that's a bit too much money for my business to handle huge too much money for Roy and clan. Cameron is like you know what? I know someone who might be interested. And then it's like midnight at this point. But he asks US. Jerry's phone rang about twelve o'clock said Munich. That'll look the initial mirrors and manage. It caught rex complex. Call Jerry Haridas was about to get caught up in REX. Connor big dream and Jerry had no idea what he was in for within a couple of days. Jerry Carita was on a plane to Canberra. What was kind of like when you first met him or I will. I was thirty seven. He was about sixty or sixty three tough united. Jerry was struck by Rex's vision to create a secure future for Australia. He was totally on board but that Adelaide loan it actually fell through and Jerry still really wanted to come through with the goods by now. He felt like connor was relying on him so he started asking around but no one in. Ustralia had the kind of money that connor was looking for. So Jerry started to talk to contacts overseas. He basically embarked on an international quest to fund Connors Vision we went to Hongkong journey filled with dodgy. Characters is a book and bums deers. He'll around but eventually Jerry Korea's found his guy a Pakistani loan broker by the name of Thira Kim Lonnie. It's a name that even now is synonymous with the Whitland governments worst decisions but at that stage for REX Connor. The name symbolized hope because this loan if it came through it could fund the dream. How much was he saying? He could deliver all four billion dollars. Full billion dollars now. I just want to pause here for a minute. Because while four billion dollars is a huge bomb. Nail in one thousand nine hundred seventy four. This was astronomical in today's money. It's about thirty two billion dollars. So not only. Was it a huge amount of cash but no Australian government had ever tried getting money for government programs from source like this normally treasury would source wines from big USO European banks. Some guy called tariff. Kim Lonnie was not exactly the usual money Linda. So light in nineteen seventy four connotates this strange proposal to Whitlam Mating Composing Corner With Lem- Murphy and cans was held light in December to authorize rex. To raise four billion dollars through came Lonnie. This was another opportunity for Whitlam to intervene before things got out of control but incredibly Khanna got the green light stupidly ministers and Gough somewhat reluctantly into the lawn. Agreed that it should be pursued. Were sent back to Kim listening to say. Let's do it. Let's seal the deal but in response Kim Lonnie started getting flaky and every time Jerry sent him a message to try and locking the line. Kimani would ask for more time. All the time was asking for more time. Yes and then. The media got wind of the plan and things went rapidly downhill and we begin again tonight. On the controversy over the government's handling of its overseas lend Nicosia's we make no apologies for the land do today unconventional sources tomorrow traditional thought they were now competing affairs the Morosi fail and the loans affair both front page news. And they were changing the way that people thought about the government when it became public that this can Lonnie. That would put a lot of people off the sort of trigger that you'll get an Australia. Today is from the Middle East. Kim Lonnie foreigner misses all suspicious and they had good reason to be suspicious of of Kimani as it turned out. Not because his name was Kim on Rix Khanna's socialist dream was feeling further away than ever Kim Lonnie. He'd been flaky. To Stop with was now being slippery. He always had excuses for. Why couldn't finalize the line? The allied property developer Jerry. Kurita was determined to find a solution. He felt like he'd given connor his word that he could deliver the money by now he felt close to connor and felt it was up to him to go and get it. That meant crashed me and for me it was like more than if I had to my shoe washing the money anymore for me would honesty honesty that you promise something to rex connor and you wanted to keep that promise. That's right determined to keep his word Jerry. Kariya's boarded a flight. Not this is where things got wild because this is where instead of messing around with middlemen Jerry decided it was time to go to the source. You say Kimani wasn't rich. He was just a guy who had connections in the Middle East. When many countries were flush with cash on the back of an oil boom Jerry decided to visit the Guy Kim Lonnie had been trying to do the deal with the guy who had the billions and that guy was no less than King Faisal of Saudi Arabia. So Jerry got on a plane with four thousand dollars and no visa instead. He just had a personal letter signed by Rick's Khanna saying please let this guy into your country. He was bound for Beirut where he was to meet with King Faisal King Faisal of Saudi Arabia Shoddy Arabian at a stopover in Bahrain. He found someone to show him to a hotel academic papers and of course he took me to hotel. Jerry WANTED TO FRESHEN UP. But he was worried about his bag of valuable. Documents are going to go down the like you read on TV. You know to not pinched papers with the bag back to make sure you never lose out right little jerry. He had much bigger things to worry about than someone's dealing his bag because something terrible had happened to the king of Saudi Arabia. The Guy He'd come to meet and then he knocked the door. By the way the killed King fighter King Faisal had just been shot and he was assassinated. King Faisal leaves the Arab world without one of its most senior wealthy and powerful leaders and have dinner with him. Jerry had one last hype his contact in Lebanon so again he got back on a plane and as he landed. He saw a commotion on the Tarmac. I look through the window and I can shoot. Black Limousines calming the right left and centre with machine down on it and everything. So Jerry was wondering who the welcoming party was full and then realized it was Fahim. Literal perceive the official. Masha prize Bush. Me They'll official was me that had been worst for me but then as he was being escorted through the streets he heard machine gunfire at dawn on him. He landed right in the middle of a war zone. I was your body water. He needed to get out there. His search for a line tuned into a dangerous circus ending. You it so he bailed now the handed Jerry Haridas had to go back and see REX. Connor why not gone in. I wasn't happy man. I saw a different REX. GonNa he had his legs on Hugh Stable Coffee Table. He's is horse raid. Rex Kana near that. His big dream for USTRALIA was starting to fall apart. He felt defeated and he said to Jerry. I want to delve or something. I don't want it on the pipe I'm gonNA shine. Jerry couldn't believe it this guy. His nickname was the strangler giving up not on his watch. I'll put my hand on a table and a bracket about no way you're going to sign the weaning. You done nothing wrong. You're done shopping for your country angled people not for your benefit and computed after your pep talk. He decided to resign not so rex. Connor just like kids decided to stick it out not even widespread media outreach political scandal and the risk of extreme damage to the government's interests nothing would get in the way of him and his grand mission. For better or worse. These guys would termined so this stuff is happening. Light seventy four early. Nineteen seventy five and the government is beset by these scandals the loans affair and the Mirage affair and none of the main players backing down and as if things couldn't get any worse right in the middle of it all at Christmas time in nineteen seventy four a cyclone was cutting a path towards Darwin is imminent. The cyclone made landfall three thirty. Am on Christmas Day. It was one of the worst tropical cyclones Australia had ever seen. Leg was crushed in baby was hurt. Romantic we just have to get out and that's nothing here our house. There's there's nothing left of. Is this flat downstairs. At least ninety percents of homes in Darwin demolished. Oh badly damaged sixty five people died. John mingy fleet deduction to survey the damage hours. Just a new scene. Aside like doll houses. Demolished Telegraph Wise Telegraph. Poles just screwed up Like pieces of string. By this point there was so much going wrong for Whitlam. Inflation was running at twenty percent to huge scandals the Morosi affair and the lines affair brewing and now Gough Whitlam was about to take a huge hit to his popularity cyclone tracy had killed dozens of people and flattened. Alan and people really wanted to see the prime minister. Gough Whitlam Tyke charge getting the Gumboots and show everyone that he kid but it took him a while to get to downtown because instead of keeping a lead on the scandals and fending off the growing criticisms of his government. He was in the middle of a five week trip through Asia Europe and the UK and at that moment he was listening to Christmas carols at Cambridge hours on the phone to to him in the in the UK and described it to him. As Best I could and one of my objects was to try to persuade him a huge return. How are you managing that argument not well? He was reluctant to come back. He eventually agreed with Minju and decided to come back but when he got there. The welcome was nothing like it expected. It was booed and heckled because it was big news. It destroyed what had happened. A narrative was developing about Whitlam that he was out of touch that his ministers were off the leash and his government was totally dysfunctional. Now that he was back he took care of the reconstruction if it but his next move did little to change the narrative because instead of staying at home and getting things under control he was itching to get back to his overseas trip. And once again we Had to go to work colleagues and I to try and persuade him that really he should stay. Whitlam had returned to Sydney to deal with some other government business and was at home at the PM's residence. It's summer at this point and I remember I went down. He was sitting on the long on a Lilo. Curability underlie the prime minister's residence on a Lilo an eye when down and my gray flannel suit and preps the last attempt to persuade him. That one out stay here in Sydney good weather. Everyone's on holiday. You have a holiday as well on a lawyer but stay in Sydney pleased. I and he said Common Chord. If I'M GONNA put up with as fuck rich in the library body I've gotTa have metrics and off. It went those around Gulf Whitlam. We're beginning to see his weaknesses. His reluctance to whole his tame into mine his inability to since big political risks and he was about to miss the biggest risk of all to his government came in the form of an ambitious man. Who just been installed as the Queen's Representative in Australia? We're broadcasting from Parliament House. Canberra John Roberts. Do Swear I will and truly save and Clean Elizabeth. I didn't know the seat that was being conjured up. So don't meet God in the next episode of the Eleventh. We hear allegations about the governor. General said John Kerr that have never been in before even listening to an ABC. Podcast if you've got an interest in how history can help us explain the here and now try Rio vision. It's a podcast which promises to put. Contemporary events in their historical context answered the question. How exactly did it come to this? What's really behind the riots in Hong Kong? Does Donald Trump really want to buy Green Lance strategic? Way It's interesting to exactly is Boris Johnson. Leaving on the thirty first of October. If and how did he become Britain's Brexit leader? Revision gives you the story the background that makes sense of the news headlines. Revision wherever you get your podcasts or here now on the ABC listen APP.

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Episdio 11 - Agosto, ms do desgosto?

Ouve Isso

18:37 min | 9 months ago

Episdio 11 - Agosto, ms do desgosto?

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All the King's Men: Tribal Leadership in Modern Jordan

The Tel Aviv Review

25:50 min | 2 years ago

All the King's Men: Tribal Leadership in Modern Jordan

"The this is is to be one. Vitelle Aviv review. Welcome to the Tel Aviv review. Brought to you by the Jerusalem institute, which permits humanistic democratic and liberal values in the central discourse in Israel. If you're like us, please join our community of supporters by giving to a patriot pain. You'll find all about it on our homepage. Please consider giving Tel Aviv review depends on your support. I'm your host get out Halpern. And my guest today is a professor of Middle East. Studies at Tel Aviv university. He is the author of the shape of shakes myth gal phase and tribal leadership in modern, Jordan. It was published recently in English by Stanford University press, professor Avalon. Hello and welcome to the Tel Aviv review. Hello, so myth gal. Fires is that. How you pronounce his name several ways you can the way he put on his own gal gal that the bedouin way. Who was he and why does he deserve bail? Graffiti when Mikhail was one of the greatest shakes of Arabia in the twentieth century. He was the leader of big tribal confederacy, which lead in the areas that. Now, Jordan, the Hashemite king of Jordan. He was very influential leader who was to power in the late nineteenth century early. Twentieth. Century played an important role in the first World War in the twins to Jenin four as an ally of Ottoman empire, by the way, then he played a very important role in their starving of Jordan in nine twenty one under the auspices of the British empire, and then he led his tribal confederacy for nearly fifty years, and he lied. I didn't ninety sixty seven even today. We can see his legacy in Jordan his descendants. They play poem in troll into politics to stay here. For instance, his grandson is now, the president of the Senate upper house. So when you thought about writing this book was it because there was virtually no one else more important in the formation of Jordan other than perhaps some kings or members of the Royal family. There are several things why such right about infest of all there is. Nearly nothing written about tribal leaders in the Middle East and those people were willing potent figures, and they played a very important world for centuries in many ways still do today. So I want to feel that lacuna and also Mikhail attracted me because I stumbled on him in the archives in the central tiny arc of Jerusalem. The very early stage of my democrat. He had very interesting relationship with the Jewish Agency in Palestine, thirties and forties. We'll get to that. In. I realized that a lot of historical material about him usually the problem with writing about tribal leaders of his Tuchel is that they did not invite. So that didn't leave any historical records. But he was someone who happy because it was so influential and powerful he trusted many writings, and there's a lot of stock records about him written by British officials Zionist officials Americans and many explorers who visited his camps. How did he rise to prominence was just the right man at right time in the right place? No festival. He was born to the family. He was born to a family of shakes, his grandfather and father confederacy of tribes. Is it like the biggest one in Jordan in the area? How you know? What is the way politically? Yeah. Well, when he started his own career, it was one of the most powerful tribal confederacy in the Syrian desert. Had something like eight thousand people for warriors today. They number something like one hundred fifty thousand people in Jordan, tribal confederacy is a political alliance between several tribal units tribal units organizations were the members assume the have blood relations, the trouble confides, confederacies, usually more like a political lines. But then they add to it. Some kind of a genealogy that allows them to think about themselves as one family today. It's the third largest trouble confederacy in Jordan. And at the time was Jordan, but it was certainly in terms of its power. It was one of the most fearful tribal confederacy in the seven doesn't. So that, you know, open doors for him even before he started. Yeah. So he was born in the family. He was born to what we call shakily family. So he had very good starting point. But he had many brothers and cousins, so. So there was actually a tough competition on the position and partly he managed to become shave because he was so he was wise. He was very courageous. He was a famous leader of rates and also the the context of circumstances. Played to his hands used to power, the time of the first war, tribal leaders or tribal leaders with military experience where need and he knew how to take advantage of that situation as you said the first in the service of the Altman's and then shortly afterwards, he basically switched sides and form this formidable Lyons with the with the Hashemites how how did that take place? What can you tell us about the beginning of relationship with Hashem? Oh, yeah. That's something that correct to is his political strategy. What is his life? He didn't hesitate to change allies and patrons when it suited him and his drives June the first World War the. Art before that was part of the war. The Hashemite would him and try to move him to the sites, but he became a remained a loyal supporter until the very end of the war. Actually, he was the only person in what then became Jordan who could boost the title of Pasha the highest rank in the Ottoman empire. And it was very part of it throughout his life. But when the Ottoman empire was dismembered falling the war, and ultimately withdrew from Jordan from Palestine from entire he had to recalculate his moves, and he had a chance to, cultivate, the support of King Faisal the lead of the befall for short time. The king of Syria before he became the king of you, and Faisal gave clemency to all the tribal leaders who fought against him during the war, and Mikhail became one of his loyal supporters. And when the second son of the. Of our revolt show for maybe we maybe you think too many names. But I founding fashion. Came to Jordan twenty and Carl was one of the first supporters invited him to come to man and country from there he promise to protect him and support him. And in many ways, he helped darla to establish roots in the country and to persuade the British that they have to recognize its power, the there's a fine line between political students, and the petunias where would you integrate is him in the in this very specific context of switching sides, so effortlessly, yeah. Important point because usually portrayal of tribal leaders in the Middle East emphasize, the fact that the greedy fickle untrustworthy, they lacked any ideology and dispute that description, I think he was an astute political leader he had a strategy Cleese torching tribal leaders, switch sides all the times, and they did have an ideology and ideology was not nationalism. Mm-hmm. Religious ideology, it was the benefit of their own tribal leaders. They had to prove to the leaders that to their constituency that they were the best people to lead the tribes and therefore the head to already think about the Ben the interest of their tribal members the kings Hussein and writer of the trust him or was it just a marriage of convenience because it was so powerful. So they, you know, would prefer to have it on their side. I think that between him and King, Abdullah the first they found out, Jordan. I think there was some kind of friendship, but it was of course, also political friendship and each party new the interest of the other. I think they respected each other. Maybe the field each other. They cooperated with other. Sometimes they fell out with each other. But I do think that the head some kind of deep friendship king who said when he came to power in the fifties with carbos the twilight of his life. He was an elderly, man. He was in his eighties or the frail and ill. But I think the king probably trusted him respected him. And I think this Carl. Gal. Probably liked him. Also because it was so young and his relationship with British who at the end of the day calling the shots in the area in throughout the twenties, thirties and forties. I mean, three three three and a half decades. Least was it similar as pragmatic as it was earlier on with the ultimate s-. Of course, he WAS FG Matic. He had to be Matic. But he was also very tough nut to crack. And he was a rival of the British in many ways, he's opposition to the first attempt to rule the country in the nine twenty even before I came played a very important role in the slobby establishment of Morton, Jordan, pretty frustrated. They tried to make him an NL get his cooperation the failed, and when della came he supported dollar and creator great position to the British even after within the twenties and thirties because it was so powerful because he could muster the support of his twice because. Was he enjoyed the support of the British disliked him. I think they like to more when it was weakened in the late, thirties and forties. But he knew how did he become weaker? He became weaker because tribal society become we especially in medic society between the two worlds mardi society. Went through an economic crisis. The bedouin the pastoral economy was no more normal vital vivid the June late twenties early thirties. Jordan went through an comic crisis severe drought Lakos attacks and bedouins were especially hurt and needed the help of the government and then Mikhail needed goodwill of the government, Abdullah in the British and therefore he became weakened. But he could already muster it because he had established good relations with the Hashemites extent with British. Yeah. And the British knew that also, although he was weaker. He was still strong. And they didn't they wanted to, cultivate, his loyalty or support or his collaboration. Did they know in real time? What did they think that they owe their power to his support to extent was really instrumental in guaranteeing the longevity of the Hashemite rule. And what extent to you think that he was as a researcher looking at it and respect eighties, mice -ment that he was willing to mental -pecially in the first decade of their stubby establishment of modern, Jordan, what was called the way of Jordan a think without him. It seems really difficult to see. I'm Dallas managing that project. Unify few years. Miskelly was in many ways of stuff. He didn't have the king did not have an army or the army was functional and skulls, people defended the capital Amman, again specially against Saudi coaches. Gave up the local base of support. And I think he was willing potent that we got an also mentioned he was important in opposition to the British the British didn't want up there. But they realized that he had too many strong allies in the country's first and foremost Cal and therefore had to accept the reality. Would you say that he really shaped Jordan in his image over that exaggeration that would be ration-, but he was willing to mental in stoppage -ment of Jordan, and it's a mergers. And again, I think putting the focus on him corrects the image of Jordan as only Hashemite entity. There was a society before the Hashem came. And with is a good Representative of society. All right now for the moment, we've all been waiting for his relationship to the Zionist leadership that also in this arena, his nuance as a politician, and it's rudeness really comes into play. Yes. Completely. He was one of the first local leaders to identify the scientist interest in Transjordan in nineteen thirty. I want to remember that in is honest ideology. Both banks of Jordan form the land of Israel and the promised land the land that was supposed to be missed by the ball for declaration. So from in the vanish magician Palestine head to banks and the kingdom of Jordan Transjordan was for design is part of the national nine twenty two when the British excluded that eastern part of Palestine from the ball collision. It was a big blow to the export in the late twenties and thirties designees try to revive that option. Also trying to take advantage of the crisis. The economic crisis in Jordan Palestine, then prospering mainly thanks to the immigration from central Europe falling vice of Nazism teams. There's a lot of capital and Palestine and the people in Jordan looked Palestine and with Quetta with jealousy and envy, and they thought that might that might be an opportunity in the when dishonest star to send delegation of servers and engineers and immediate of Carl understood that might be an opportunity for him. And he sees it, and he cultivated tuition friendship and political lines for the next five years. The most senior people he had closed connection with a high model. Also, then head of the political department of the agency he made several times vitamin Sokolov who replaced vitamins, the leader of this organization, then after this nation of a loss of humid many times with mush let and he knew the moral, and he was coming and going into Levin and Jerusalem Zionist officials visited him in Amman in his camp somewhere in the desert, and they talked business. This too was very instrumental alliance was really nothing more than that. Completely those Nali ideology in that alliance. He again, we tend to project the the concentration of our country -ality to the past. But in the thirties there was no nationalism in Jordan. There was no conditions for the spread of nationalism so dealing with Jews from skull was like dealing with any other. Force in the region, they were business partners partners. And that he didn't see Palestine or the west of the Jordan river's part of his sphere of influence. No, he was always an his tribal tabs will always try to was always in the east. They did have sometime in court upon the some of the you could find heads heading in the valley in Gaza, but mainly the were in the area, which is today a man and east southeast of among maybe some of your listeners know, Amman international airport. Managing international airport was built on the land of Cal in the seventies. Right and making his family, even more. What was his perspective on Palestinians, the Arabs to the west of the Jordan river? Again, he was looking for a patron like most tribal leaders did. And some point he and actually the first people he put the Palestinians. He was the largest land owner in Jordan. He owns seventy thousand genomes, which is seventeen seventy acres, but the land was mostly uncultivated because of the use of trout and the consequences and he wanted to sell lease the land to someone anyone any I put the Palestinians, and he came back empty-handed, and then he saw an opportunity with scientist. And therefore he offered them that project you said in the beginning of this conversation that was his tribal confederacy, and he personally where among the most powerful tribal leaders in the Middle East. Would you say I mean, it's really interesting to look at Jordan. History and days seen for very good reason as one of the weaker countries in this area, both politically comically demographically. It's very problematic yet, it is to the best of my knowledge. One of the only Middle Eastern countries that never underwent a major revolution of civil war. And it kind of strife that would endanger its political system. Would you say that people like garland, maybe he himself laid the foundation put in the infrastructure that allowed for the longevity of the today political system. Yeah, I think you hit it by the nail. That's exactly the parts of Jordan on the one hand seems to be weak and dependent on phone support on foreign allies on the other hand, the one of the most table countries in the millions, and especially when we look at the Middle East today since in the last decade, or so I think that to a large. Stent they're lying between the Hashemite family and people like Miskel, namely, the heads of the tribes and the tribes themselves. Explain why Jordan so stable I think the Hashemite through that alliance meant to create a large base of support for the regime and for the country. Tribes see in Jordan the homeland. They see the existence of children as the prime interest. And they defended and each time Jordan face the question. He did of course, like every other country, they came any support. And I think that explains why Jordan's stable why the Husham regime is one of the only actually the only resume that survived the last century in the Middle East among division that created under corn rule so did shape Tolan in his image myself to exaggerate. No, you're absolutely I think we can clearly distinguish why dentist by McCall Leggett. In today's and the world that his family still plays today testifies to that. Because we are will be running out of time shortly. I like to ask you another interesting question that isn't a bout with got himself about you as a researcher in urine Israeli coming from NewsRadio university and part of of Yarmouth dodgy was also interviewing people in his family's tribe. I mean, having personal access not just, you know, not just a high will work how difficult was it? I don't think it was difficult took some time. I had an advantage at the early stage of my research that I came from a British reversed that it makes it easier and actually also when I started my research Jordan was different period was the late nineties and the use of the peace process everybody, especially in Jordan was very hopeful and optimistic actually I was more pessimistic than they did. But I enjoyed a window of opportunity. And when I first to Jordan, I found lots of goodwill and people were curious to meet an Israeli. Sometimes I felt that I was in zoo. Really want to see who this is rarely guy who work. And in Jordan, if you have the white connection, you can get nearly everyone, and I happen to meet to colour who knew one McCall sons. So I was going to interview it was very short. And then he told me that we should continue that at home over dinner. Unfortunately, two three weeks he died. So I lost contact to the family, but then I managed to resume it by that time, the family had already read some of my writings, I was invited to meet them. They have questioned me. But they I think they understood that I was a bona fide researcher that I really took interest in the founding father, and they wanted to think to give their own perspective because it's interesting it's not just because there is rarely any country when the someone coming from the outside to write about one of the national heroes. They treat him with spin, regardless of these rare. The Arab conflict. You feel that this was more. Like, what impeded you from getting access to them necessitated the time that it took more than you know, Yubing is ready. Yeah. Most researchers western researchers when they come to Jordan, probably other countries that sumptious is that somebody sent them always after time. I was asked who sent me who paid for me. And of course, I said, you know, my investment, but nobody to notice I'm sure I'm sure the thought that I was sent by some kind of intelligence agency, I think with family they realize that was really an economic. I was established academy by the time. They knew where I was they so my writings and sent me, and I think they were flattered by the fact that I'm interested in on history. And they also realized that I know about the father or grandfather so much more than they did. Yeah. So I think they really took interest in in my and what about working in our archives. I mean is it really different from working in archives in the west not though, the only thing is that the access is more limited. You don't have Jordan liking of the British national archive of American acts of all even these Israeli wants most of the political material is kept in the palace. Very few people in see I did work in the national archives, and I actually benefited from what of the materials, but of course, everything do they have like a sense of history. I mean. Oh, yes. Very much. So and many committed today nations who try to preserve history specially all history. All history is a big thing. Enjoy now, and it's really important thing. Yeah. Because there's really a viable alternative because they many of them as side where illiterate and didn't exile. Why do you think the until you have a loan this young Israeli researcher came along? Nobody thought about writing momentus book about Mika first of all not many historians vote about tribes or tribalism, not mention shakes. I was fortunate to be educated television versity with great professor the late professor Costinha who open for me this world of tribalism in the Middle East political science sell. Jeez stones tend to think the tribalism was dying phenomena that the more than area would raise tribalism that the state would be replacement for the tribe. And therefore, it was not an important theme for inquiry for many, many years Costinha. And I was convinced new realize the tribalism is an important phenomenon that actually collectors the Middle East until this very day, and we should studied. And I think that's my one of my contributions in this in the book. So this book is dedicated to professor Costa's like I say almost as much as it is with gals like, of course. Absolutely. All right. Professor you Avalon Middle East caller at Tel Aviv university. The author of the shake of shaves myth gal phase and tribal leadership in more than Jordan. Thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you. And also big thanks to give them the mere sound engineer to tie Sholomo producer and to the Vannier institute for the generous support data, Shannon. My trust co host will be back with us shortly. And now we've got a request many most via listen to us on the apple podcast app. And we would like to ask you this. Please consider writing review just launch the app select. Podcasting live section scroll down to ratings and reviews and press right review. And then of course, right one. You can't support us by Goto website. That's still we want him slash Tel Aviv review and subscribing onto a patriot compaign we've got gifts and perks and other things for you. Check out our archive with almost five hundred interviews if you're here, you can also like us on Facebook page is called the Tel Aviv review, podcast ideas from Israel and follow me on Twitter. And of course, join us again next week for another edition of Talavera review. And until then good. Could.

Jordan Middle East Jordan Mikhail Jordan river researcher Palestine Tel Aviv university Tel Aviv Israel Jordan a Jordan Palestine Jordan Transjordan professor Stanford University Amman scientist Jenin
Irineu Toledo conversa com Samy Dana  Dilogo Nutritivo

Feliz Dia Novo

28:13 min | 2 months ago

Irineu Toledo conversa com Samy Dana Dilogo Nutritivo

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Episdio #229  Ahh o Natal e o final de ano

ChupaCast

56:14 min | 4 months ago

Episdio #229 Ahh o Natal e o final de ano

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Unpacking Mohammad bin Salman and Moderate Islam in Saudi Arabia

Policy Matters

20:24 min | 1 year ago

Unpacking Mohammad bin Salman and Moderate Islam in Saudi Arabia

"In October two thousand Seventeen Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman and that he would return Saudi Arabia to moderate Islam his policies since then have eased restrictions on gender segregation in public spaces including allowing women to drive yet. These have also been accompanied by a crackdown on any type of descent including the imprisonment of countless individuals activists in clerks. What is one to make these changes occurring within Saudi Arabia and what implications do? NBS's CBS moves have for our understanding of religious and political authority in the kingdom. I'm Colton Cox Policy Assistant to Baker Institute Director Ambassador. Edward Djerejian in today's host of policy matters points and perspectives from rice. University's Baker Institute for Public Policy. Our guest today's doctorinal. She line she. He is a non resident scholar the Baker Institute and currently a research fellow at the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft and is an expert on religious authority in the Middle East. I welcome and Al Franken firstly. Could you give us an overview of who exactly Mohammed bin Salman or. NBS is how did he rise to power. Yeah so Mohammed bin Salman is the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia. The son of the current King Salman he is King Solomon's age son though he is the oldest child of his mother who was the third wife of King Solomon. He's thirty four years sold. His father became king in Twenty fifteen and initially Mohammed bin Salman. NBS WHO's he is often referred to was the crown prince however he the previous crown prince was ousted and NBS was appointed crown prince in two thousand seventeen and and again MBA is thirty four years old. His father's eighty three years old and as our listeners may be aware we've heard a fair amount about what NBA has been up to. Although in the end his father is still in charge. NBA has been credited with moves like allowing women to drive allowing L. Ing Women to occupy public space in a way that they previously were not permitted to doom and even to obtain certain documents that that allow them more freedom than Saudi women have previously been able to exercise. Also things like imprisoning well-known Saudi businessmen businessmen even members of his own family in the The Ritz Carlton Hotel in Riyadh in late twenty. Seventeen early two thousand eighteen As well as doing his famous charm tour where he toured the US and Europe drumming up support for Saudi Arabia's new image all of which was very much undermined and tarnished by the horrible and brutal murder of dramatic Shoghi in October of eighteen At the moment he's involved in trying to drum up investment for the IPO for Saudi Aramco. which isn't going as well as he hoped given that? Saudi Arabia has spent decades invest resources on promoting being an exporting and deeply conservative version of Islam. WHY WOULD NBS decide to promote so-called moderate Islam? That's a very good question and I should. I emphasize sized that. This is what a big deal this is because I think a lot of people think of Islam and they think of the way it is currently manifested in much of the world as traditional so women in black men in their stashower long robes And it's just important to remember member that Saudi Arabia has really transformed Islam as a result of their huge oil resources and their control of the holy sites in Mecca Medina as well as their sustained efforts to bring Muslims from around the world to study their form of Islam which they frame as correct Islam as the correct interpretation. The rest of the world often describes as hobbies them to distinguish it. However again they've they've really transformed and what is seen as the the Orthodox the correct form of Islam all over the world and such that people think of it as traditional when in fact it is very modern and this transformation formation of Islam has been carried out through Saudis Religious Authority through their vast resources? So I think it's useful to think of it. If the deeply conservative puritans for example in the United States had discovered oil and then spent decades spreading their form of Christianity to the rest most of the world and declaring all other forms of Christianity to be illegitimate so the ways in which that would have undermined sort of the the different interpretations of Christian religious plurality that that we might recognize in the American context so again the the reason he's in his doing this I think is essentially because Saudi Arabia can no longer afford to maintain this very conservative form of slum in particular because so much of it is built around the the prevention of women from engaging in public spaces so so essentially the Saudi Arabia historically has been able to provide sufficient government resources to its male population that can allow them to both earn a living working for not particularly demanding jobs as sinecures for the Saudi government but to also provide for all of their female dependence so that could be wives daughters mothers cousins because none of these women were permitted to work almost at all and at this point. Saudi Arabia can no longer afford good to have half of its population. Be Completely Absent from me. The economic sphere Saudi Arabia is increasingly consuming. Its own energy which is also eating into its finances and in addition Saudi Arabia has historically employed employees non-saudi external workers to come in and do much of the actual Labor takes place in Saudi Arabia. So when I was there in March it was fascinating to see things like the every uber driver I had was a Saudi man. For example and there were Saudi women INCR- little by little increasingly increasingly being employed in spaces like the think tank that had hosted me Especially some of the institutions that Mohammed bin Salman himself himself has been involved in running or promoting so it is starting to change. But they're given. This is such a long standing nding centerpiece for Saudis interpretation of Islam. It is very difficult for Saudi Arabia to change so quickly as NBA is trying to do. Do this interpretation of Islam that for so long they said it was the only correct interpretation. They've really given themselves no room to transition the narrative the NBA has been trying to promote is sort of this idea that the past forty years have been an aberration that previously Saudi Eslami was more liberal and he is trying to return to this authentic Saudi Islam- and he's blaming the the transition away from antic Saudi Islam- KLOM on Iran which is inaccurate historically but is fairly clever from his perspective because he's aware of the sensitivity for many Muslims regarding Saudi Arabia's sort of the center of Islamic Religious Authority and especially for Saudis themselves who are sensitive to to this perceived external pressure to alter Islam to moderate Islam. So it's smart that he's going about it this way but I still don't think it's necessarily going to work because they've invested so much in in such a different form of Islam that to try and change it this quickly. It's going to take more time looking at the history of the Saudi state. Have there been past attempts to change. The state's approach toward religion are are there other important figures who advocated for protested against religious reform in the country so yes definitely so for example The rebel to hey man who led the Seizure of the Grand Mosque in seventy nine. He was opposed to sort of what he says as liberal liberal reforms going on in Saudi Arabia prior to that again when girls education was a authorized for the first time in the mid twentieth century there was a Saudi prince who was opposed to that who was actually killed and some years later his. His brother avenged his death by actually murdering his uncle or a close relative King Faisal another so again just examples of the fact there has been this historic resistance to changing what is seen as as the core of Islam in Saudi Arabia. Yeah another important development in the nineteen nineties. After Saudi Arabia accepted that the United States would send in troops troops in order to prevent the possibility of Saddam Hussein from continuing his invasion going past Kuwait and into Saudi Arabia. Which is what the soad feared so I would ask the US to to help and the US station troops in Saudi Arabia which not only pissed off actors like Osama bin Laden but also a whole generation of clerics many of whom were not necessarily core members burs of the religious establishment? Some of them were but I think it's important to keep in mind that when as Americans we hear about a cleric doc was imprisoned or which I mean an MBA has imprisoned many clerics. But there's a there's a difference between sort of these core members of the religious establishment. Many of whom are in the family who are descendants from up the and sort of the the rest of of the The imams these these various individuals some of whom are very famous on. Twitter are seen as very prominent. But it's important to keep in mind who's actually part of the mainstream religious establishment really powerful institutions like the Council of senior scholars for example and so during Misawa movement or this this move this sort of awakening as its referred to of Saudi clerics who were very much opposed the stationing of US troops and they rose up in opposition to this and started to call things like an actual constitution wanted and more political rights. They were Suppressed and even subsequently it's been interesting to see how some of them have remained figures that are seen as threats to the Saudi regime but in the end they also have always been been willing to throw anyone in jail. Who who got in the way of what they needed or what they felt they needed to do? You traveled to Saudi Arabia earlier this year. Can you describe some insights gained by your interviews with key members of the religious establishment. Yes so this. This was very interesting because I was curious to speak openly with these individuals. Israel is about the shift in religious discourse that Saudi Arabia is implementing in particular. I was curious to know if they had any concerns sounds about the way in which shifting Saudi religious discourse could undermine Saudi religious authority and they did not express concerns for the most part Obviously it's difficult. None of these individuals would probably feel that they could speak totally freely. All of them are are members of the religious establishment bushman suits in their interest to speak the language of of the state that they are in charge of disseminating But I did think it was was interesting. So for example I had an interview with the Minister of The the Ministry of Religious Affairs who is a member of that Family and when I asked him about the possibility that this could potentially undermine Saudi's religious standing he said we'll all Muslims face Mecca five times a day. We're always going to be the center of Muslim Religious Authority and although although he personally may have some doubts or concerns he was definitely replicating. The idea that Saudi Arabia is the center of religious so thority and that is never going to change but there wasn't a lot of recognition of the ways in which Saudi has invested so much in this very particular interpretation reputation of Islam. Which is itself quite intolerant of alternative interpretations so if Saudi Arabia this whole time had been a little bit more pluralistic they would have given themselves more room to maneuver now? But it's difficult because they have staked all of their authority on sort of being this manifestation of true Islam are people buying into the narrative of so-called moderate Islam that the NBA is pushing and this goes for the Saudi public and the international community alike. So it's interesting because in Saudi Saudi Arabia. The the reason. I think that we have not seen more resistance. A is the huge amount of repression Russian. The Saudi state is implementing so anyone who could potentially be a source of opposition is pretty much in jail or worse however behind that. It's very important to keep in mind. And this is what I was told repeatedly while I was there that although NBS taking credit for many of these changes ages that are currently being implemented their only possible because of the King of the scholarship program we're in hundreds of thousands of young Saudis received received generous funding to go and study abroad mostly in English speaking context in the US and the UK and in Australia and so it's this generation ration- of young people that have now come back for the most part to Saudi Arabia and they're very excited about what NBS is proposing because he it has come out as being against corruption. He's come out as saying we're going to transform this country and so I think for many Saudis they they are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. They may have some questions about this idea of moderate Islam itself. Or what exactly that means. But I think in general they're mostly concerned about the economic prospects and we haven't mentioned it yet but Mohammed bin Salman plans Flagship of his his whole approach is called vision. Twenty thirty which again is is not necessarily a set of policy prescriptions but it is a vision for where he hopes and wants Saudi Arabia to be by the year twenty thirty however he's potentially set himself up for a lot of disappointment because he's raised expectations so high the less time you're on this podcast you spoke about how the US should approach this phenomenon of moderate Islam across the Middle East East how should US policymakers view the social changes happening under NBS particularly at a time when Saudi Arabia's facing more international scrutiny. So I think it's important for the US to keep in mind that moderate Islam is generally seen seen as a Western import as the result of Western or external or non Muslim pressure and so if the the US really would like Saudi Arabia to be more successful in promoting moderate Islam. We should probably keep away from it as much as possible which is sometimes difficult because the US Americans like to see ourselves as standing up for democracy and Human Rights Hover It is important to keep in mind that this image has been very much tarnished especially in the Middle East and so the. US is often seen very cynically. Weekly so in general. It's best to to not necessarily stop promoting human rights or working on the ground impractical Toco ways but but sort of standing up next ten BS and saying you know we're so excited about you. Promoting modernise lawn isn't going to be helpful the ways in which we probably could be of greater help to Saudi Arabia and its transition one thing in particular would be ceasing. Any kind support for the war in Yemen. I've spoken with Saudi colleagues who say that if that were to happen if the US were to stop providing any material support or sort of discursive support Saudi Arabia would have to to get out of that situation already. The UAE is is reducing its involvement and we saw also for example. The way this played out after the attack on the Saudi oil facilities in mid-september where aware initially tensions rose. It looked like there may have been a a a conflict right around the corner with Iran but then when it became clear that the trump administration was not going to go into the region guns blazing and attack Iran outright we saw Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf countries countries working to defuse tensions and in general I think via the The further that the US goes towards making it clear that we are not going to fight Saudi Arabia's wars for it or the worst of any other country in the region including Israel that that part of the world is going to have to sort of figure out how to manage their disagreements themselves kind of based on their own certain nineteen about their own military capabilities. Other things would also be to stop selling arms to the region to the extent that we currently are. I think it's it's very important that the US think really hard about what we want a role in the world to be as we are dealing with a more multi-polar international national system. And how American resources can be spent to protect our own security and quality of life. Well Nell this has been a very insightful. Discussion that has spanned religion politics and international affairs. And we thank you for coming back on policy matters. Thanks so much. Thank you for joining us for this. Episode of policy matters points in perspectives from Rice University's Baker Institute for Public Policy. The Baker Institute is one of the nation's leading resources for nonpartisan uh-huh Public Policy Research and dialogue for more information about how you can engage with the Baker Institute. Our fellows are events. Please visit our a website at Baker Institute Dot Org. If you enjoyed the podcast. Please subscribe and rate us on Apple podcasts. Stitcher or wherever you go to get your podcast.

Saudi Arabia United States NBS Saudi government Saudi Aramco. King Salman Saudi Saudi Eslami NBA Mohammed Baker Institute Middle East MBA Edward Djerejian Al Franken Baker Institute Director Ambas Ministry of Religious Affairs Muslim Religious Authority Iran Israel
As it Happened: The Archive Edition - Former Lieutenant-General Romo Dallaire

As It Happens from CBC Radio

28:14 min | 1 year ago

As it Happened: The Archive Edition - Former Lieutenant-General Romo Dallaire

"This is a C._B._C.. PODCAST in the fall of nineteen ninety eight an elderly woman known as the Cat Lady went missing she had a very <hes> very distinctive silhouette and very recognizable and you'd see you're walking into town a handkerchief on her hair long overcoat like somebody that lived on the street. All police could find were thirty cats shot dead. I always knew something had happened to her. Digital disadvantage like that uncover the Cat lady case from C._B._C.. podcasts is available now good evening. I'm Chris Bowden throughout the summer. We'll be taking a look back at some of the more notable interviews for more than fifty years of as it happens this is as it happened the archive edition <music> tonight another installment of our as it happened back to the feature series when past is present twenty five years ago left ten General Romeo Dallaire witnessed unspeakable horrors as the commander of the failed U._N.. Peacekeeping Force in Rwanda during the unfolding genocide you literally relive it some mornings. I'll wake up and for a few seconds I'm actually back in my office actually actually hearing the sounds of the fighting going on. It's real absolutely completely real we revisit General Dilemmas 2016 Studio Interview with Carol about his memoir waiting for first light my ongoing battle with P._T._S._d.. G._S._T.. As it happened the archive addition radio the Chines alight <music> one hundred days eight hundred thousand people killed a relentless massacre of staggering swiftness that began in April April nineteen ninety four and ended that July but of course even after the killing stopped the horror did not not for the hundreds of thousands of survivors of the genocide whose physical and mental scars could never fully heal and not for Canadian left-handed General Romeo Dallaire who led the doomed United Nations Assistance Mission for Rwanda or Yun Amir the U._n.. Peacekeeping force in the country here he is speaking to as it happens at the onset of the massacre in April nineteen ninety-four. If you the stated that all hell's breaking news thinking galley that would be a reasonably fair statement during the night mostly the presidential guard <hes> have gone on a rampage killing destroying massacring mutilating relating and a few other in the twenty five years since the end of the genocide general delay has dedicated his life to recounting the horrors he faced in the hopes that it might never happen again but only in the last few years has he begun to discuss the immeasurable terrible trauma he has suffered due to his experiences in Rwanda in two thousand sixteen. He published a memoir waiting for first light my ongoing battle with P._T._S._d.. In October of that year he sat down with Carol in the as it happens studio to talk about it here. Now is a rebroadcast of that feature interview General Romeo Dallaire welcome to as it happens. It's been a long time you have been on this show many times even talking to us from Rwanda yes with your predecessor Michael and Michael you continue to try and tell the story of what happened after you returned. You have told that story of what you saw what you encountered hundreds of times if not more what I've learned in this extrordinary book is what was going on in your head during all that time can you just describe for us the sounds in the images that play in your head from that time over and over again since one thousand nine hundred four terrible thing about this when your mind is injured as gets to be because of the horrific traumas that you go through sounds and so on as you ask. They come out often unexpectedly when I'm watching just normal news from Syria or somewhere and talking about refugees are talking about a bombing and so on. I don't see it as images. I hear them there. I go back and I hear the people in the compound in the King Faisal Hospital area with James Have Linski where <hes> over one hundred were killed by by bombs and splattered all over the place in the screaming and yelling I smell the smell of of the cordite and smell of blood in of the Dung and everything that's around rounded. I feel the warmth and I feel the fear this reality show comes back digitally clear every time you find yourself facing facing one of these types of events either newscasts or simply reading on something you literally relive it their morning some mornings I'll wake up and for a few seconds I'm actually back in my office actually actually hearing the sounds of the fighting going on and then it dissipates it's real absolutely completely real and the best you can do is try to control that the nights are the worst times yes <hes> because there's nothing to stop anything from invading you and what is it. What do you actually what is the replay? What is the actual events of that when you triggers that and you you're back there again? What is happening? What happens is that you become physically we see emotional but physically engaged because a scene will reappear <hes> once in Sierra Leone of crossing the street and there was a vendor with a machete chopping up a coconut and I went nuts and was trying to kill him because it had launched me into a five six minutes teleprompter of the whole the whole slaughter of Rwanda and I was seeing it there and I couldn't control my body from stopping going after this guy and people did ultimately stopped me so there are triggers that happen at night by sounds smell or just invasion of light that open up these drawers of events and then you relive them they don't dull this stuff does not dull it stays vivid and powerful viewer continuously vulnerable and the ultimate vulnerability is that the nighttime can be very long and so you can go and push yourself to the extremes of suicide and and it hurts but I wonder you know one part of the story that needs to be retold? It's not just that you were in the middle of this genocide. You're the one in charge of the peacekeeping forces you are the one trying to cope with all of these people who you tried to protect and while others are being slaughtered but you did mutiny you did defy the United Nations and what it wanted to do. They told you to get out. They told you that this is not peace. There's no peace get out you stayed you took as many people you could into your protection and you did everything you could for this one group of people you defied orders ordered. Does that ever replay for you a moment when you realized in the midst of all the impotence you felt that you did take charge of something do you do you get any satisfaction from remembering that my response to the secretary general on two occasions of refusing direct legal order. I mean I I was a career soldier thirty three years by then it was something unheard of a legal order being refused so my defiance of of that order I find no particular great sense of value in that because it was instinctive it was who I was it. Was it was being Canadian. It was my upbringing was it wasn't doesn't tactics. It wasn't strategic. It was wrong however it's rather interesting question. I've never had that before where I might find the certain <hes> maybe satisfaction of having taken that decision is what I. I went to my deputy rate. After who is a Ghanaian general it was a lovely man and the bulk of the four hundred soldiers I had were from his country and I went to him and I said I have refused a legal order but I said the order is immoral because we've got all these people were protecting and if we left they would all be slaughtered but ethically I can take that decision but I can't impose it upon you and I said Henry sorry you have to decide whether or not you WanNa stay with me and your soldiers and he said Sir we are not going to be defeated in Rwanda and his response was the greatest greatest feeling I I had of that whole period I mean the number of these types of things but the pale in front of the failure we're already knee deep in bodies and we can't even read the air because it's so recent with burning bodies with area see a pile of bodies burnt with these are loyal because that's the only stuff we had left and there's not only the site but the smell you know it's not a smell. It's like <hes> it's like a fine rain that enters your pores and your your body smells it and so you you live in this constant atmosphere of death and destruction and you can't get away from it and so so it's a it's a real bubble in which <hes> it's difficult to find positive you're listening to as it happened the archive edition. I'm Chris Bowden tonight. As part of our back to the feature series and encore presentation of Carroll's 2016 interview with Canadian left Hannah General Romeo Dallaire about his memoir waiting for first light my ongoing battle battle with P._T._S._d.. I must say that this cannot and will not be a normal interview in the sense of having distance from you from from the subject from the author because as you know I have was involved in some of the stories than you told in this book and I was meeting with you. During these times I was interviewing. You and I have to say that when I now read this memoir and understand what was going on in your head what was going on in your whole being. I don't know how you did it. The man I spoke with was yes troubled. Yes going through a great deal but you were doing so much work. You were accomplishing things. You were doing things within the Canadian Forces that were very large files to me. You seem like somebody lady who was despite everything keeping it together and I think they phrase you heard as you say in the book your back in the real world now. It seemed to me that you were but you weren't. That's what I find so shocking about this book. All I was doing was camouflage as really just trying to kill myself by working. Does it had been unsuccessful other ways. It was the safest place to be saved us in the sense of having a focus by just honorably driving myself into the ground often hoping that I'd have a a stroke or something that would turn me into a vegetable and I wouldn't have to hurt anymore. I remember a few people asking me. Why are you so busy doing things I mean Elizabeth my wife and so on pupils start working slow down and so on and I and I came up with this phrase I used to say you know it hurts less when I'm busy and working and it was true do it created a defensive mechanism to all that memory and all that guilt of Rwanda from simply overwhelming me but in so doing it required so much energy and so much time I'm that I was actually <hes> realizing finally during my therapy came out that all of us trying to do really is camouflage also trying to get rid of myself but this work you were doing wasn't? Wasn't just a business you're involved at a time the Canadian Forces it wasn't when it was in crisis. This is a time when peacekeeping which we consider ourselves to be preeminent peacekeepers. There was no peace to keep we we were sending Canadians into situations in Africa and former Yugoslavia and these men and women were coming back seriously damaged the same time as you write about in this book they your bosses wanted to keep insisting that this was not a mission problem that this is just people going through things and they wanted you to confirm that and you didn't what is it that you wanted people to know about what you understood these soldiers the Jews were coming back with you know if you've ever the first book shake hands with the devil yeah it was a time when I was actually suicidal and attempting as I was writing lenient and <hes> I mused the long time on the first phrase. How do you start a book and I wrote that my first love and real love is the army and so when the uniform came off was one of the most horrific times of my life the love for the army guided the energy and the drive and so I felt the pain of many of the soldiers who were crashing I was answering phone calls from prosecutors and judges saying how the hell did this guy end up in my court you know when he was a good soldier but he came back from a mission and and he's into booze and beating his wife and families breaking up I lived these soldiers who are dying a suicide from the injuries? I went to even to the Governor General one point when I was a senator because as I wasn't getting any satisfaction from the command and he's the commander in chief and I asked him to help me influence the chain of command to say that we're losing guys and girls because the chain of command is not taking care of them. They've advocated advocated it to the medical people and the medical people there simply to support the chain of command that there to take care and to love those soldiers and so it it was that overriding factor I I know nothing else but the army and to love the army and but it is it's it's a profession that has an ethos and so on but it to me it was it was a life it was a vocation and you were ordered out of it yeah. That's a very polite way of saying it was done. Delicately modest betty was chief of staff. I remember him crying over at when we were talking about it but it was seemed to be for my own good and one sense because I was told you either keep on this Rhonda stuff I was going through tribunals and everything else or you you concentrate on work but you can't do both because you're crashing and I said I never abandoned Rhonda so they said we're going to have to let you go. We can't deploy you as a general because you can't command troops anymore. Due to the state of mind you're in so is thrown out medically and that's exactly how you feel no matter how nicely they do it so you leave having done your duty and paid that price and your family but you you feel as if the patient has thrown you out and that's why I'm so adamant in veterans. It's Kinda becoming part of national defense not a separate department. The soldiers must never feel that that covenant that that loyalty that we instill in them that they they put that uniform on that that stays for life. It doesn't disappear because all of a sudden the uniform comes off but when the uniform comes off it's a break by the institution to that loyalty and you're not allowed to do that not when people commit themselves to unlimited limited-liability when they commit them and their families to the risking your life and the rest of the life of your family and so there's gotta be a way that you can continue to make them feel that they're still part of an entity last summer. I hired veterans to be trainers of trainers for the work I do on child soldiers overseas. I getting veterans who have served three or four missions who are now going to be my trainers. There must be a cradle. To grieve of commitment and so it's not a contract not a social contract. It's not a workmen's compensation. It's a covenant. My Dad told me the night before I left for military college he had been a career soldier and he'd done six years of war and he said Romeo he said you're never be a millionaire which is right for the did. Tell me one thing he said you're joining a service and don't ever expect act to serve with people saying thank you. Can I say on behalf of many many people this country thank you thank you for what you did. Thank you for not just what you attempted to do. In Rwanda which you succeeded in doing in Rwanda and what you have attempted to do by declaring your own post traumatic stress disorder but putting yourself out by exposing yourself in order to help other soldiers. Can I say on behalf a half of Canadians thank you. Let's hope this stuff in the book will help them and their families and we might even save a few lives one thing that struck me personally reading this you describe grab the distance you had with your family and that you were not living with them and Quebec City because you had to work first of all and because then you were in treatment and sometimes they just didn't entirely understand why you weren't with them and when I saw you whenever I saw you you were always with people you're surrounded with people and I learned from beating this is that you were incredibly lonely viewer so alone. Why didn't you tell people that how much you needed them? The injury does it as one of the facets of this terrible injury. You don't seek people to communicate with on the contrary you try to avoid them and <MUSIC>. I was public because I was doing public things in moving stuff but I go back to the hotel room. It was totally isolation and it was not self protection but protecting affecting others. If you started to talk about what it was people would turn off or they'd ask a stupid question or they be <hes> so emotionally roth that you know you feel terrible that you create that the atmosphere and that was the dominant element with my family <hes> yet seen some of it and particularly when I crashed in ninety eight for six months they they saw this this person who would let's sit there alone just crying or never able to read or do anything you just who aimlessly walked around and they didn't need that Beth was controlling the family anyways they were in Quebec City and they were in their schools and their family and Beth ahead her family and so they were safer so it was more keeping them safe although my youngest son about a year or so ago said you always said that maybe maybe would have been better if we had been with you and that really caught me by surprise. You did have friends there. Were people coast you one of them Brent beards. You've mentioned deer man who has been with Yuzu. Everything another person you write about in the book is is a mutual friend is was my friend Sean Canfield and when you were looking for someone to help you with your book shake hands with the Devil I recommended her because she had worked with me on the book I wrote about you and she she met a tragic end and it must have been difficult for you to do perhaps you can tell or less my case of why you don't want to bring people in to this totally overwhelmed and we spent and hours and days interviewing she she was outstanding interviewer and we the of what had happened and she was living nearly smelling the horrors of of what we went through in the TRAUMAS and the decisions Asians and so on and she'd established a link with me that was so powerful because she was living what I was living. She had become an altar eagle in life and it consumes. So much that it in the end overwhelmed her and I do I saw it was she needed just some time to rest away from this and catch your breath like I did with the number I soldiers they were overwhelmed. I pulled out for a couple of days and let them see the real world and then come back in refreshed and she never came back. Sean jumped to her death. Yeah the Bloor Street viaduct yeah. I can't stand going by there. You and I were both at her funeral and at her grave did her death change you change your perception of something that you were wrestling with which resume own suicide urges did that alter your view of suicide at all no because of the four real attempts three of them happened after that unsuccessful only because there were people who were around and I was too stupid to know how to do it properly so no it didn't all except for the fact that did I closed in more. I locked out people more because that price was already too high and the only guy that I felt would be able to handle it is because he lived with me was Brent and in the last summer he ran our veterans program for us at Dalhousie and it was so powerful the experiences of those veterans as we worked through our program and so on Brent completely broke down and he's now in a another rebuilding of of himself. That's twenty two years after so you don't you don't WanNa bring people into this. You want to tell them about it. You you want to help them avoid falling into in this book he wrote Rwanda will never end and I will never be free. I know there is no remedy for what I saw what I did and did not do during those US three months in how it's clear in this book that you are not going to be able to heal. Is there any way that you can find hope oh well that I think is the optimistic perspective as you go towards the end of the book and I spend most of a chapter on the Child soldier word that you're able to find something particularly if it's helping helping other human beings. I think that that is something that helps you. Come out of it and that's why I've I've committed all my money for the books and stuff and my effort and helping these kids I was in in South Sudan with my executive director Dr Wittman and UNICEF had called us in because they couldn't move on the military side who were all recruiting child soldiers by the thousands and so <hes> we arranged that I go just one of the eleven major rebel leaders and try to see if there's room there for an old general to talk to a general still in uniform and maybe influence them and after not quite two hours of discussion on all kinds of stuff I was able to get the last three hundred kids that he had under his command at of his command and Hannah more with the U._S._F.. So that's the hope that I actually might be saving kids. There is light in waiting for first light. Well remember first light means. There's going to be more after it. Thank you Carol Your Lovely Lady. Thank you from October Twenty Seventh Twenty sixteen that was left Hannah General Romeo Dallaire on the release of his memoir waiting for first light my ongoing battle with with P._T._S._d.. It's published by Random House Canada general delay our joint Carol in the as it happens studio <music>. That's it for this episode of as it happened the archive edition the show is produced by Kevin Ball with help from technician Rhonda Williams and Keith Hart in Radio Archives. You can find all the episodes on the as it happens website just follow.

Rwanda General Romeo Dallaire Carol Hannah General Romeo Dallaire Canadian Forces Chris Bowden Rhonda Williams Peacekeeping Force army United Nations commander Africa US Sierra Leone Yun Amir United Nations Assistance Bloor Street viaduct Sean Canfield wrestling
The Siege of Mecca

Throughline

44:32 min | 1 year ago

The Siege of Mecca

"The morning of November Twentieth Nineteen seventy-nine would have seemed like any other Mecca wore. The Sky was clear and much of the city was preparing appearing for budget. The first of five for the day off the season of hedge had just ended and and pilgrims from around the world gathered slums. Holiest site the mustard. That cut him or grandma. Ask a massive compound surrounding the Gaba an ancient chint black cubic building that sits in the middle of a vast courtyard Muslims. Call it the House of God. The earthly place. They direct their prayers. Ah in the Islamic calendar who was the first of Mahara in the year fourteen hundred the first day of the new century you when the people of Mecca make their own program each to the shrine around one hundred thousand pilgrims filled the courtyard lined up in concentric circles facing the Kaaba for Prayer uh just as the prayer shots ring out. This wasn't a sound. Any pilgrim expected to hear violence. This is strictly forbidden in Mecca before the pilgrims could figure out what was happening a man followed by three gunmen emerged from the crowd right and began walking fiercely towards the mosques among the crowd part as the man charged them in butter or pulpit and snatched the mic from the terrified among demand began to speak Arabic in Fiqh better when accent. He was tall and steam with brown skin and long wavy hair. His name it was John Hayman. The hundreds of armed men commanded scattered across the grounds mocks yelling orders at the pilgrims Arabic tape in which some of the men snipers climbed the seven minarets surrounding the main grounds and took positions overlooking downtown Mecca. Johanna instructed them. Eight John Kapoor Fire Dot Com. If you see a government soldier wants to raise his hand against you I have no pity and shoot him because he wants to kill you. The Saudi police protecting the mosque were armed with little more than batons. It's two guards. Were killed immediately. Many others ran for their lives. In many of the Pilgrims Moss began chanting. Llahu Akbar or God is the greatest. Something Muslim often do trying moments soon. The militants it's also joining the chiefs and the chaos reached a climax just as Johann announced that he and his men were now in control and with that it was. Clear Islam's holiest site and one hundred thousand. People have been taken hostage the siege of Mecca and event that would forever change Saudi Arabia and the Muslim world had begun. What was Saudi Arabia like before? Nineteen seventy nine Denver. Uh we were living a very normal life like the rest of the Gulf countries. Women were driving cars. There were movie theaters. In Saudi Arabia. Women worked everywhere. We were just normal. People people developing like any other country in the world until the events of Nineteen seventy-nine Saudi Arabia is in the news constantly. It's a major player in the affairs of the Middle East and the US is closest ally in the region region other than Israel for decades. It's been one of the world's biggest exporters of oil but that's not the only thing is exported Saudi Arabia's religious authorities have actively spread their interpretation of Islam while Hab is through these efforts there ultra conservative. literalist version of the faith has traveled around the world and inspired hatred and even violence. Saudi Arabia also has a poor human rights record. Especially when it comes to women until you'll recently women could not drive or travel about a mill relatives permission the country's de facto leader Mohammed bin Salman whose voice we just heard a moment. I'M GONNA go is a thirty four year old prince of the Saudi Royal Family who has tried to reverse some of these trends by loosening restrictions on women social media and public mingling of the sexes. Bin Salman has often cited the year nineteen seventy nine as a turning point for Saudi Arabia when the country's clerics begin to exert more more power in the fares of the nation his interpretation of history and the sincerity of his efforts are up for debate under his rule. Saudi Arabia has targeted. It'd journalists imprisoned dissidents and bomb civilians in a war against his neighbor Yemen. But he's right about one thing when you're heyman and DB and his band end of militants took over the Grand Mosque in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine they inadvertently opened up opportunities for Saudi clergy to grab power so in this episode. So we're going to take you back to the fifteen day siege of Mecca that chain Saudi Arabia continues to shape the Muslim world. Perfect and this is Jimmy Lane Wesleyan. I'm listening to through line. which is an awesome podcast? Show thank you Berkeley support for NPR and the following message come from Exxon Mobil which is growing algae for biofuels working working with its partners synthetic genomics. Exxon Mobil is researching and field testing algae. That could one day power. The trucks ships and planes that helped drive the economy with fewer greenhouse gas emissions keeping transportation humming while cutting emissions find out more about biofuels at energy factor dot com news breaks and big stories change range every day. That's why we're giving you. NPR's ten minute morning news. PODCAST ON SATURDAYS TO I'm Scott Simon and I'm Lou Garcia Navarro up. I start your day with us. Weekdays at six eastern and Saturdays at eight a bit later to suture weekend from. NPR News every Muslim. Who can afford? It is expected to make a pilgrimage to Mecca. Once in their life while they're pilgrims this will spend a lot of their time in the Grand Mosque a massive facility that covers over four hundred thousand square feet. It's a sanctuary where violence even its smallest. Form is forbidden so as you can imagine many of the pilgrims who were there in the mosque on the morning of November twentieth realize. Just how all serious this situation was. Most people were horrified by what had happened. Most people that were inside the mosque were besides themselves this joke. Oh Keshishian and resuming fellow. King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies and Joe says as the rebels delivered. Their manifesto chaos erupted in the mosque. The militants blocked all of the gates to prevent hostages from getting out. Once the chaos. Die Down there were tens afoul of pilgrims trapped in the mosque being controlled by hundreds of armed gunmen. Initially there wasn't a major response from local authorities it appeared appeared as though the entire city was in shock. But at this point you might be asking. Who is Joe Hayman? Then what motivated him. And how did he end up staging this attack before we answer any of that we have to go over some basics about Saudi Arabia. And get a sense for what was happening there. In the years leading up to nineteen seventy-nine these are the treasure. Houses of an ancient distant isn't kingdom a land the size of western Europe where the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is named after the family event. Starting in the eighteen hundreds they try to unite Bedouin Edwin tribes to take control of the peninsula. They captured and lost control of some parts of Arabia but never fully controlled it for long periods of time but after generations of struggle they were finally able to become rulers of Arabia in one thousand nine hundred thirty two. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire. They established a country treat and named it after themselves. And by controlling Islams to holiest cities Mecca and Medina they became credible haramain. Shetty fan and out of which means the custodian of the Two Holy Mosques an incredible responsibility but in order to achieve this position. The House House event solid enlisted. The help of conservative Muslim fighters called the when or brothers. The plan were followers of the Wahabbi interpretation of slum what hobbies reject any attempts to modernize a slum and proselytize and often historically inaccurate cure technical view their religious fanaticism awesome made them extremely effective soldiers for the Saudi army. The country that the Saudi family controlled was poor and extremely underdeveloped developed. Most people lived as they had for centuries but in nineteen thirty eight. A major resource was discovered in Saudi Arabia. Oil a land of too little water and too much oil. That would probably describe the dilemma of a country. which is only just realizing its importance in the twentieth century? Those treasure by the late nineteen seventies. He's revenues meant that the kingdom was slowly but surely ising was developing. It was opening up to the outside world which irked some of the most conservative elements in the kingdom. This is Yaroslava Trofimov. I've been covering The Muslim world's for needed to cates for the Wall Street Journal. He's a longtime in Middle East reporter. Who wrote the book? The siege of Mecca things like television was still very controversial and the attempts by the royal family to bring the country into more more than eight women Went to beach wearing swimsuits Their War DABAYA but Dow by it was not any post item but this this apparent betrayal of Wahabbi principles wasn't the only thing that angered many conservatives I can make progress in the country wasn't happening everywhere And many small towns and villages Bedouins didn't always have the same access to resources as their fellow city-dwelling citizens so many of the man who fit in in that second group felt not only disgusted by the modernization in the country but they also felt left behind by it in a monarchy obviously they're always injustices We're not talking about the democracy or democratizing society. So they're always individuals that are left out of the system awesome and one young Bedouin. The son of an Ecuadoran fighter felt both of these slights. His name was Joe Hayman and our Dany. Aw Man debuted comes from one of the most prominent tribes of Saudi Arabia and and he was at the beginning destined to become a foot soldier in the National Gar- Jehan served in the National Guard. Saudi Arabia's army for many years but eventually he became more and more interested in studying slum he started studying slamming University of Medina under Shaban Buzz. Who who was a leading cleric and then later become the mufti of Saudi Arabia and he became enamored by be teachings of several prominent an aunt clerics he started getting the following that he had at these Lincoln University in Medina Baron started to proselytize as much as possible all the potential changes that he wished to bring to the country? Trauma tabby opposed the presence of foreigners the presence of western an embassy to humor anathema and other things like television women on television. He rejected the establishment. He thought that there was an alternative certified and that there ought to be an alternative to do Rick Family Jiemin really opposed any non Muslim non Rajavi penetration of Saudi Arabia's. We didn't you like the fact that the Western embassies he decried the fact vice the flag of the Cross finding of buildings in our country and what he calls is for justice he calls for for the rule of law and that he himself is going to go ahead and put everything back in order. He's going to save Saudi Arabia from these bad rulers. So here wanted to sort of to to create a pure Islamic state which is not the only different from what for example Isis. A one or two more times Kahan was a true believer. He lived an austere pious life. He refrained from modern luxuries like television and he was an excellent recruiter for the conservative active movement. He wrote and shared his thoughts widely and began to organize his followers. He created the spent. Let's say of individuals at some point win that alarm the Saudi authorities dozens of members of Joe Hayman's organization were detained and Heyman enlisted. His former teacher shift bin. Baz has to help and then shaping buzz intervened. All of the detainees were released. This could have crushed the movement but but instead John Hayman's group continued organizing at this time. Jackson was just one of many emerging leaders in the conservative movement in the kingdom but then something happened that set him. Apart as he was going on this path he had this dream about his brother-in-law in decided that he was could be the Moxie. The mattie is debated mysterious concept in a slum. It isn't mentioned the on but basically the idea's this at some point a messianic figure called the method who according to some traditional interpretations reputations is going to come from the same Arab tribe as the Prophet Muhammed and even have the same physical features and name. As the Prophet overturn to usher in the a day of Judgment Johann became convinced that his soon to be brother in law Mohammad bin Abdallah was the Mattie. She looked at him and looked at the descriptions of of how the market should look in the eighth in the sayings of Prophet Muhammed Physical descriptions the name You know it all kind of seem to match watch for him to the best of our knowledge. It appears such a Haymond genuinely believed his soon to be brother in law was the Mattie and that led him to a serious conclusion preaching and winning followers wasn't enough action needed to be taken. The Saudi government had to be removed but. Interestingly this is where he differed from other religious conservatives like his teacher shift Bin Baz NBA's really at the time endorsed a lot of the criticism the true human head against the the state of Saudi Arabia. At the time I would say well. Yes this is wrong with that is wrong also wrong but we should not Weasel Zubay the king because the king is the guarantee that our way of seeing Islam our way of doing things we preserved against the infidels. Who for the most Carla be clerics would be any other smirk ultimately? Even bin Baz is disapproval. Wouldn't be enough to sway James determination to get rid of the Saudi royal family and his ability to wage. An attack got even stronger. After he started attracting foreign followers to his movement he won followers from all all over the Middle East especially Egypt. Some of these followers had come from the Muslim Brotherhood. A well organized Islamic political machine. And so you really had this marriage of the Saudi Wahabbi zeal with Japan and the ready. meads Islamic militancy That came from Egyptian and some other foreigners who came to Saudi Arabia. So you had the the the the fusion of the theology with the organization skills skills and and violent extremism by Nineteen seventy-nine Joe Hayman's group grew to include hundreds if not thousand or more members they were motivated needed and capable of a well planned attack on the Saudi regime. Johanna and his followers had a radical idea. They were going to attack. Islam's holiest site site the Grand Mosque of Mecca which is blasphemous act but heyman came up with his own religious interpretation nation to justify it he figured it would be a strike right at the heart of Saudi legitimacy. After all if couldn't protect these holy sites should they be in charge Arja them he hoped it would gain the attention of the world and usher in Islamic revolution and the Dave judgment they planned the attack for the first day of Mahendra in the year. Fourteen hundred Saami calendar which happened to two seventy nine. The Mecca Mosque is a huge which facility and millions of people go in and out every year so the doors are almost never locked. Giannis people prepare pretty well. They drove pickups full of weapons into the tunnels In becomes below the Holy Shrines theories are they were able to do this despite bribing guards and by using dark but ingenious technique to bring weapons into the mosque. People bring him dead to perform lost lost ritual sprayers and so on so the plot of the spanned was essentially to introduce weapons in coffins. Jon Heyman and his Molten stresses pilgrims they grab their weapons and and emerged from the underground mixing in with the pilgrims and they took over the facility shutdown the doors and Hamon stepped up. Bent ripped away. The microphone bounced up. The mattie had returned and liberation of Saudi Arabia would start one might say that most of the pilgrims at the time in the mosque were not fluent in Arabic people from Pakistan from Indonesia from Turkey from Africa and so and even the ones who need Arabic Ah good necessarily understand months Bedouin accents fusion and going on until fighting starts and when we come back the siege of Mecca turns into a battle. You're calling from Akron Ohio and you're listening to through line this message comes from. NPR sponsor. Xfinity some things are slow like snail races. Other things are are fast like Xfinity X.. Fi you get fast speeds even when everyone is online xfinity has the goal of maintaining coverage all over your house with reliable service for all devices so everyone is happy. You can even pause the in Home Wifi to bring the family together working to make WIFI simple simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions. Apply with your friends by mid morning on November twentieth. The scene in downtown Mecca was chaos. Johanna and his followers is had seized. The grandmas taking nearly one hundred thousand scared. Panicking hostages were began spreading throughout the city that there was an incident at the shrine cried. At the time there were construction crews working for the Saudi Binladin Group A company owned by the father of Osama bin Laden renovating parts of the mosque. Those workers workers immediately alerted authorities. Police were deployed to end the siege. But when officers tried to approach the mosque they were shots from the minarets massacre for anyone who dared enter the mosque grounds was shot and soon Saudi authorities. They start to send more troops but the troops refused to fight now. The soldiers and the National Guards knew that it's forbidden to even you know harm. Birds in the holy precinct Latte along bringing bringing weapons let alone shoot weapons. Initial assaults approved to be very costly because the facility is like a fortress who are very high walls and you have to climb on top of them and they'll sharpshooters or shooting on the soldiers basil and you realize that you cannot keep people in there because because they need food that he toilets water so the short period of time pilot Muslim go once the Saudis understood the seriousness of the situation Asian. They realized they had a problem. As the custodians of the holy cities they were embarrassed by their inability to keep pogrom safe so they tried to keep the news of the siege from getting out of Mecca. Saudi Arabia Immediately cut up phone lines to Mecca. They really mash suppress it for several hours. And nobody you go now. The the news really see where the David Bar there like in the company was where he for one day after the siege ended he. We're really a Fiji matter. She had this is Adnan hoop he lived in Saudi Arabia at the time of the siege. Each he explained a local people knew something was happening in the grandmas but nothing about who was responsible. There was a lot of confusion Lyonnais avid easy. For people of information there were even some people and outskirts of nectar. We did not no what was happening it was a totem news. Blockage and God only knows we did not know what the true you really want a lot of the United States one of Saudi Arabia's closest allies also didn't know oh who was responsible so when President Carter gathered his advisors in the White House the information. They had that this must have been. They work of the Iranians. The Islamic Revolution overthrew Iran's Shah or king earlier in that year and the new Iranian government was immediately antagonistic towards the house of Saudi. There were still holding hostages at the American Embassy in Tehran when the siege in Mecca started so the US government within hours of the attack concluded that Iran must have done. Something must have stirred trouble in holy mosque and so administration officials actually blamed around the time and and sent aircraft carrier to the Gulf in response. Iran's response was denial and then to blame the US for the siege but how Khameini obviously went on the air and said no no. It's the Americans sending Jews to desecrate Holy Site. This message made its way all over his Islamic world and many people believed Khomeini's assertion this conspiracy theory about the American movement spread much much faster around the Muslim world than really fueled island China. Thousands of Pakistanis enflamed by rumors that the United States had invaded Mecca burned the US embassy embassy here trapping about one hundred Americans and embassy employees for five hours and the heavily secured top floor code. One Marine Guard was shot and killed during the attack and Pakistan took over and burnt American embassy and the rights in India was Writes the American Embassy. Trooping Libya about two thousand demonstrators stormed the United States Embassy in Libya today shouting slogans in support board of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini he's anti American policies and even Mohammed Abbas yet. The Turkish militant tried to kill the Pope latrone was was also motivated by this. The Saudi government made a couple of announcements the days after the siege began. They knowledge that there was an ongoing crisis in the Grand Mosque mask but offered little beyond official Saudi comments on slide disturbing Appeared two years later. As word of the siege began seeping out of Mecca. The Saudis realize they needed ended quick and to do that they had to stage an actual full-scale military assault but remember it's forbidden in a Slob to commit acts the violence in Mecca so the Saudis needed a religious decree or fatwa from the Kingdom's clergy or ulema to go ahead with the assault. So they the need fatwa From the religious authorities would authorize the operation and the fatal wasn't forthcoming because Luther. She's one at the extract a price for it. Okay so remember shift Bin Baz Joe. Hayman's teacher the guy who helped get his men out of jail. So Shaping Baz was the Dean Dean of the Adversity Islamic University of Medina. So he was probably the most respected scholar at the time and the want whom their Aurigny it felt like they had to listen. After days of frustration the Saudi King Collared Some Unshaven Baas and the leading members of the Ulama to the capital for a sit down and it was a very difficult meeting because bin Baz and the others were saying. Well you know there are problems uh-huh in our country now all this. The morals are very lose. His soul is forbidden. Things happening must do something about what were the specific demands but the the demands were for example more restrictions on women's rights. But most importantly what they wanted is that they wanted to burst out of Saudi Arabia. Because they had this global mission of Dowa of spreading the view of Islam to the rest of the misguided to Muslim nations and And they needed the backing of the Saudi state for that. The support of the Saudi government allowed the Lama to open schools mosques and charities all all around the Muslim world from Nigeria to Indonesia. We have to stop for a second here and emphasize the importance of this moment. Up until nineteen nineteen seventy-nine. They had made a very specific arrangement. Deal with the religious establishment. There is no interference in each other's business. The Saudi's feared that this arrangement could be in jeopardy if the Allama were able to extract these new demands but Joe says even knowing the risks. There really weren't many options for King holid- and the Royal Family. He had no choice but to acquiesce to the demands. This was a great bargain between the Obama and and House of Sodium which they said Okay we will support you and is critical moment. We will authorize the military operation in holiest on his this but in exchange you know you will allow us to use the resources of the Saudi state to further our cause throw the Muslim on Muslim nation. where the clerics involved at all in orchestrating this siege I have seen no evidence that the activity and apt this by the surgeon took advantage of this To further their own ninety S. It took took three days for the clerics dependent allowing for Saudi authorities to use violence to take back the GRANDMAS ask. The Saudi forces made preparations and while the clerics have been negotiating the fatwa the Saudis had finally done another thing. They made public statements acknowledging that their own people were responsible who for the attack while the Saudis had to make this declaration because the Americans but Presi them in the US government. Saying hello. Mike you have to say it's not us and and so the House of so did make these statements and the blame miscreants this is audio of a message. Saudi authorities blasted into the mosque over loudspeakers pleading with the militants to end the takeover. It was on fire and murderous on the Muslims by these renegade. Kahan didn't end it. So within hours of the fatwa being issued the Saudi forces began their assault to take back. The GRANDMAS her server assurance conducted Saudi military brought in armored vehicles commandos and even tanks to dislodge Jon Heyman and his fighters Jay Heymann has spent the week digging in. Initially they fail but after taking heavy losses Saudi security forces finally made their way into the grandmas grounds. You had armored personnel carriers out the M one one threes driving into into the holiday precinct and firing hiring. There was a machine gun position of the rebels just behind the COBB others elliptical wall just in front of the Saudis made progress but at a very very high cost the fighting was intense and dead bodies littered the grounds of the mosque but by the end of the first week they managed to clear out the surface parts so the mosque Jehan was prepared for this. His fighters retreated along with a small number of hostages to a place beneath the Grand Mosque and Kaba for their last stand and under the mosque. there is war of Labor in Center catacombs ancient storage areas that was really hard to penetrate. Because how do you go in and sell booby-trapped the pressure with continuing to mount on the Saudis to end the siege and so They really couldn't clear it on their own and so they had to ask for help so there were two countries that That could help was the. US and was France. France Promo the. US was that after the Vietnam War after a congressional hearings and the position of restrictions on the activities Cassia and all the leaks that out The salaries digitally trust the US and so the Saudis had a very good working relationship with the French at the time because the France then was led by conservative government much more hardline than the cadre administration. They're much more WIG action. The French sent a small detachment of officers from elite counterterrorism. Force will guess the French Special Forces this proposed. Using a non lethal gas to force out your Hayman's militants was supposed to knock out the militants and then the Saudi troops in gas masks would come in and kill them or take them mount when we come back the brutal ending the siege of Mecca and how it changed Saudi Arabia. Hi My name is Eddie. Morandi you're listening through life this message comes from. NPR sponsor. Xfinity some things. Things are slow like snail races. Other things are fast like Xfinity X. Y.. You get fast speeds even when everyone is online xfinity affinity has the goal of maintaining coverage all over your house with reliable service for all devices so everyone is happy. You can even pause the in Home Wifi Hi to bring the family together working to make Wifi simple easy awesome more at xfinity Dot Com restrictions apply November twenty eighth nineteen seventy-nine over a week into the siege. Most of the militants had retreated under the mosque grounds. Only a few of the most hardcore militants remained remained above ground to fight. One of those people was the supposed Mehdi Mohammadzadeh. They're stuck there Louis. Tear Gas us is firing their staff. There is no medical care but there were guided by belief. And the Mati itself the supposed Mattie and I would go onto the bullets behind by them so was courage that comes from inability you will be harmed. The militants fought fought back hard. Shooting a hail of bullets at the soldiers. As they approached there were fueled by a belief in Mattie until he was harmed and killed and then suddenly eh started to crumble. This was the guy who was supposed to usher in the end of the world. The militants couldn't believe he was dead and that that demoralized ranks ranks Jehan had to convince them to stay on and fight. Things were about to get worse for the militants. French troops arrived a few days later. mm-hmm the friendships themselves did not actually go to McAfee. The debris the gas that trained the Saudis and they stayed in the hotel and tough on December third. The Saudi commandos began their final assault to end the siege the released gas into the underground chambers. They were instructed by the French a firefight and see it was very chaotic. It was an environment where everybody was was panicking. And in the darkness and crossfire militants and hostages and soldiers all killed by the end of the day. Many of the militants were dead and dozens were arrested including John Hayman himself pure extract out his soil clothes and smoke in his face and spread around the cameras. It diplomat Egeria man even if an RT also been syphilis not be one of the leaders of this wishes. Gang of renegades looking ready and mumbling now that he's captured in a way to fake the photos of the captured militants are haunting there. They are dressed in long robes. Some with beards others as young as teenagers covered in dust most of them had a look of shock and confusion on their faces. It was over. The the siege had failed more than sixty people were arrested including may not be a doer all tried and then they were all beheaded. The executions did not all take place and Mecca. They took place throughout Saudi Arabia. In order for the government to send a clear message I won and all that the justice of dull sound would be impost in total. The hostages were killed. Civilians were killed troops were killed. Nobody knows exactly how many because of us all the numbers that come out from the Saudis after the facts are highly questionable. And the real death toll much higher than than if you had her they say this was a horrible event. Weeks of daily warfare sometimes hand to hand combat. So you can imagine only you can imagine the damage that was done and part of the Kaaba were damaged. The door I would. This says that went inside the mosque immediately. After the assault and the DIG ration- of the facility the the blackened walls slip the burn smell of flesh and it was also horrible site on December fourth. The Saudi Saudi government was back in control of the Grand Mosque and they immediately proclaimed a great victory. Now the extent of the the damage was not not. That's world they actually managed to keep quiet tatler not to reveal just how bad things were just how much destruction was just many housed housed. There were the Saudi government. Did their best to try to erase the event from the memory of its citizens the was a book published shortly after the teach that continual officials statements and declarations and official narrative. That book was sticking out labs and destroyed then. Suddenly it was forbidden. Didn't mention that this has ever happened was wiped off history. Books shameful admits that in such a major failure occurred. Aw also because punch not so long ago older people who ran Saudi Arabia. The time we're still in power saying the Ministry of the Interior Ministry of Defence Offense. The head of National Guards The were all I didn't see positions or Kissel had national guards. who was the king up until just a few years ago? So what are the ramifications of this event on Saudi Arabia and the world by the certification was that it stopped the modernization of Saudi Arabia Society for a very long time. Saudi Arabia became a very conservative country. After nineteen seventy. It became very much interested in puritanism for example movie theaters were banned. The condition of women became much more difficult pickled the wearing of abayas even the broadcast to close their their faces became much more prevalent. The liberal rural approach was essentially in abeyance. So dark chapter really started in the country and at the same time it empowered the conservative clerics of Saudi Arabia to know just controlled the social elements in kingdom but to export they very and was cheer conservative vision of Islam around the world where it was really very marginal up until then the religious establishment gained a great deal of power. Our Day They received large sums of money to build much many more mosques to gain control over the curriculum for students in in universities universities and schools so there are lots of popularity suddenly became mainstream suddenly young illiterate people going to see some Islamic guidance education and all over the world in the village in Negeria. You know or Java with anything. This is what Islam is tree gave the salute. This massive soft power in the world and something that really fostered the development of Jihadi groups and and extremist groups from Najib Indonesia. Even though John Hayman's mission ultimately failed his actions and his apocalyptic view of Salaam's future has had a lasting effect on other extremists. Diamond was an inspiration to many extremists over the past few decades. Messianic Addict Vision that since you haven't had was adopted almost worked by wards by slamming state and inspiration There's no way that Japan and his followers is could have understood the impact they have. I mean no one really did but the fact is those fifteen days pushed Saudi Arabia and many parts of the Islamic world in a new direction. It allowed what was a fringe ideology Wahabism to have more of an influence globally in some places places. It completely reframe the faith and in others it pushed people towards a militant apocalyptic view that's had profound consequences And today we still live in the shadow of the siege of Mecca. That's this week's show. I'm Ron Bluey. I'm Rhonda a new listening to derive from NPR. This this episode was produced by me and me and Jamie York Lawrence. Lane Kaplan Levinson blue all county. Niger Eaten Brock. Turkey for this episode episode was done by Stephanie Days. Thank you to Muhammad Albert. DC Alex Curly Nikolai Hammer. And of course runs dad not for his voice over Work Butler. Thanks also to on your gunman and Jason fully. Our music was composed by round teen span. Drop Electric if you like something you heard heard or you have an idea for an episode. Lease right is a through line at MPR DOT ORG or hit us up on twitter at through line NPR. Thanks for listening

Saudi Arabia Mecca Saudi government Saudi Joe Hayman Saudi Saudi government Saudi Royal Family John Hayman NPR United States Saudi army Baz Joe Jon Heyman Saudi Arabia Society Saudi Binladin Group Middle East Grand Mosque Saudi Wahabbi mattie
A Message To You Rudy

The Bugle

46:27 min | 5 months ago

A Message To You Rudy

"Bugl audio newspaper for visual world hollow buglers and welcome to issue four thousand one hundred and seventy four of the bugle order newspaper for a visual world for the week beginning. Twenty third of november twenty twenty. I am andy's altman. You're just gonna have to trust me on that if that's okay if you're still not convinced asta person currently nearest you. If they are. Andy's osman they won't be even therefore rule them out making statistically more likely that i am andy's ultimate the dump numbers dot. We are recording on friday. The twentieth hundred november twenty twenty not long ago now people just forty one sleeps until we're not in the shittiest year of our lives old you respect to our older listeners zuma flip through two world wars the black death the flood and the asteroid. Anyway it's going to make a nice change. Forgot buddhist like hopefully two thousand twenty one complacent and stop showboating after the first month also now joining me to cough the events of the past week into the indelible audio marble slabs of history. We have this more and for the first time on the bugle since giving birth. Watch and learn. That's felicity ward. Hi andy niche. You should watch lend. This is a give a heart. We do it in the next couple of weeks right. Roll the tape for us. Great great great to have you back. How's how's mother treating it. He's one he was one about two days ago so Look motherhood is very complex on the one hand. I love my son more than anyone. I've ever met no offense. He's my favorite person. I've ever met. He's my best friend the same time. Postnatal depression can suck an absolute d.c. Really can just take it in the back of the throat or the i. I don't mind which one and get to. Can we swear on the show now. It feels like a light. Tom to ask the question paul with it. The interestingly enough ordinarily i would be bleeping out but not the goatsucker dick. I are inconsistent. No i think intuitively. That's correct kris has spent too much time working with the baby say censorship policies are confusing and contradictory. Sounds like he's been working with sabe as if you know what i made. You grow a pick. My mother claims that she's been suffering from post. Natal depression for thirty five years fairly squarely blames that on my duel. I don't want to take sides with your mom know now. Motherhood is very good but there was a long time that it was very hard but there was some other things going on as well. I'm sure we've all had cracking twenty twenty and so this was very much. The icing on the cake is basically born almost on the day that the corona virus came into existence. How they he is. The corona virus is fashion. He is a bat refund. League as the truth of this news exclusive. My son is a bat house flick. Oh yeah head. She gave birth to a chinese bot really really charismatic lady. She's unpredictable i get. It sounds on brand. I mean i've met the father. And from what i can tell a chinese bats so i'm not really sure that's the frustrating thing. He looks my my son. Is named frankie. My husband chris. I'm not entirely sure that he's my son. Except for the fact that i distinctly remember him coming out of me early on in the bugle told the story of delivering my own My own child In the bathroom guest you you didn't. You didn't go for that option. Now that i did have a moment where if you've done a An anti-nato klaus prenatal class. Which is somehow the same thing missing. anti neidl sounds like i'm not having a baby so they all those classes they tell you about your water breaking like look in hollywood films. The water goes everywhere. It's these huge deal sometimes. People don't even know that they water is broken sometimes they. The doctors have to break the water in hospital to give birth so the baby can come out and so that's what they like. It's just you why. I wake up at like three o'clock in the morning all go to go to the toilet. The water broke and then it just kept breaking until the baby was born in in waves in undulating wives. It doesn't go all the waters breaking. Oh you're gonna have a baby soon you can just be like brady on contractions okay and then like six hours later just like. Is this supposed to keep my like my dying. He told me nobody told me. Just a heads up for anyone. That's pregnant and listening of said it before enough and i'll say it again. It's a truly disgusting miracle so many miracles are you sure. Seen the state of lazarus. I'm guessing when what was Running point on the birth of our second show was he's to. I'm assuming to this was number two number two number one. I was very much What an an advisory capacity sort of fact finding mission more than in the Very much Just standing in the corner of a delivery suite weeping and what i'm mostly remembers. How much birth can disrupt one's Enjoyment of a test match on the radio really. Yeah just a spare thought for all the partners out there that can no longer enjoy test cricket. Because you've really hot not covered in the anti nine o'clock today. November is absurdity type as well absurdity day Created to mark all the ridiculous things in the world the off the wall the baffling and the bunkers. And we'll be celebrating obscenity as you heard the bugle by just looking at what's been happening in the world for the past week. I'm not sure that's supposed to be the point of world's upset but it seems entirely appropriate as always a section of dealers going straight in the ben this week Christmas tech gifts section. The new apple eyelids the new smart tech accessory for the insides of your eyelids. That mean you can still consumed social media. While snoozing sleeping blinking squinting into particularly aggressive sunset in tacoma or dead and an particularly Typically witty apple design feature the smooth edges obsessed tech design giants of picked up on the ira parts of the products Title and designed the eyelid in the shape of a pirates so it is functionally unbelievable but an uncomfortable. where for the. I also propose gets Of i've got a new piece of kit was he was leading makers of knows tech over the last few years with products such as the proposed skit facts which sends a principal description of what you're currently smelling to friends family and work colleagues and just launched the new Controversial pk celebrity. Snouts the smell. Exactly what featured partner celebrities are smelling at that very moment. And what's not necessarily an an enjoyable thing depending on who you chosen. Liberties that section in the been and nearly made the ultimate freudian slip of this entire. Podcast stalked podcasts. By saying at this section of the been is going straight in the vehicle. Top story this week. Rudolph giuliani's face now. This clearly is the most important story. I don't just this week about maybe of of all time and we choose to lead with a story buehler's not because it was the most important thing in the world this week fall from it. I mean that'd be like focusing on a fly repeatedly hurling itself into a closed window over and over again until it can cost itself to death in a documentary of growing biodiversity crisis in the natural world fundamentally that relevant we chose to leave with a story not because it was the funniest because at its heart it just all about the willful deliberate. Shameless desecration of the already repeatedly violated husky of american democracy. Which in itself is not laugh out loud funny although obviously the giuliani faces and it was in itself hilarious. No we chose to leave the story. If i may quote john f. kennedy not because it is easy but because it is hard not to It heads rolling down sweating bid. Stupid king faisal. It's like did you expect us to do. We choose to live with a story. Because i would argue this moment. Nash and state or argue. This moment summed up trumpian america more than any other. And that's also summed up planet earth thermally and phase one better than anything. A desperate flailing man's head are being so disgusted with bring in proximity the to the words spewing out of his mouth but it might a break for freedom it said i cannot be on this any longer now. Comics no doubt very smart app but he did failed to foresee a few things. The main two being that people would not overthrow the shackles of capitalism. Because even as it ravaged their lives. Mcdonald's simply tasted to delay number. Two beard-trimmers also failed to foresee sabic very important bill on. Hey goes idea in quite this often misquote attributed to him because it's missed misquoted as history repeats itself first tragedy as fast but it wasn't actually talking about history itself. He's talking about historical figures. There's often a person who is a sort of tragic figure and then another person comes off to them who fulfills a similar function initially but then turns out to be a bit of a joke right. What he did not foresee is that rudy. Giuliani himself bus tragedy and lettuce i. I wasn't tragic. Vigorous squandered his post nine eleven goodwill disasters presidential campaign. They'd become apologised for a racist gameshows presidency and then the last six months. He is descended into a fast but not classy. I like malaya or particularly bookie episode of frazier about a drugs bust. I'm talking about van wilder liaison dumb and dumber pet detective where he gets tricked by the books warehouse next to us sexual for a speech about the presidential election and then makes another speech where the head i runs down his head and makes it look like a bird diarrhea on his face bird. I'm not that it was not regulation diarrhea that bird. Industrial quantity of hot sauce covered bran flakes. And then wash the whole thing down with a glass of prune juice at human shit. I have heard of donated organs rejecting their host. I have never heard of a head. I reject gets out. I didn't think it was had. I just thought it was black. Blood streaming from his ease. He's scheme came into contact with delight. Surely we're done as human beings. Aren't we don. I know the biden. One over trump. Obviously that's a great thing. Everyone but blood is definitely the list of two awful awful people been shooting every press conference re guiliani. Does they should be three people still asking. I know you talking about some hugo chavez madness and you scout seems to be melting but can we just clear up once more why you went into the hotel bedroom of a minor for cocktails and then talked your shirt in in a master batori way and only stopped. When borat entered the room number one imagine borat being the raisin you. Stop behaving crudely he. He is a moral compass. Absolutely with and listening to giuliani read. The whole thing rudy giuliani reenacted scene from my cousin vinny as potty wanted. Just like that wasn't just a weak argument. It was as painful and boring as any person trying to describe a movie. They want soul. Never that's never a cogent argument that's never want to blow. It was like you know that one My cousin fizzy no vinnie. He held up two fingers from brooklyn. That's why i'm like him. The lady couldn't see the fingers anyway. The people were further away than that. What the glass of war mop halon while you there plays also nor sure if you saw the whole press conference but the lawyer who was on before giuliani. I'm assuming she's a part of the elite strikeforce team is talking about. She's talking about how communism is tearing down. The american vote is blah blah blah blah. Anyway she looks like carol baskin from tiger king. And that's all. I want to say on the matter with that. That was the sydney powell. Think that the trump attorney who mites summer extrordinary suggestions essentially hugo chavez. The light lunatic leftist. Back as blackie fiji quite prominent in the early years of the bugle before doing the decent thing and dying in two thousand fifteen but not before he had won the twenty twenty. Us election for joe biden. It turns out because according to giuliani and said powell voting systems. And i'm quoting dr. Hey the dominion voting systems the smart matching technology software and the software that goes into other computerize voting systems here These are the words of sydney power. Not just a minute were created in venezuela at the direction of hugo chavez to make sure he never lost an election after one constitution referendum came out the way he did not want it to come out now. Let us emphasize that the watts sydney pow said is partly true. It's true up to the words were created and then it very much jumps. Off the fracturing into a disused canal dominion has no links to venezuela smart matic was founded by venezuelan entrepreneurs based in the usa who have been critical of the venezuelan regime and the companies are competitors with no corporate links. I mean in terms of the lunatic conspiracies that we've we've enjoyed if that is the right word which which it isn't recently. I mean this is. This is spectacular getting most artistically create. Don't think most conspiracy theories would even seen a spanish midfielder picking out policies. That don't even see her own. Grab your bear is everyone. Ll cool j. don't call it a comeback. Who else is in league with in london. Princess diana only time and indeed reduce giuliani and welcoming trump's new vice president. It's elvis yes. The presley shuker tickets for the republicans twenty twenty full. He's not the president. He's the president. Welcome back welcome back thank you. Can you can rely on a bad pun coming from this guy. I'm never gonna leave you hanging as one of the many extraordinary things about the by cousin vinny reference. Is that giuliani. sort of. He says the likes it. This is a direct quote. Did you watch my cousin. Vinny gathered there was thinking. Yes in nineteen ninety two all you all you about las favorite episode of the fresh prince chat up. Are we misinterpreting it. This is not just an awkward. Shut up lighter bomb. He says it's one of his favourite law movies which first of all is interesting subcategory but also talk favorite movies because the character is from brooklyn. That's his entire reasoning for his ability. But my favorite detail about is the scene that he's referencing is when joe pepsi's character holds up two fingers and move further away to try illustrate that witness claims that they saw the cri- big it couldn't have seen it because they were too far away. Right but illustrative that saying rudy. Giuliani said these people referred to the poll observers. Were further away than my cousin. Vinny was from the witnesses. Now this means one of two things. Either rudy giuliani believes that he is related by blood to the character. All rudy. giuliani doesn't understand. How films work. The main character of inception is a man called inception. Imagine that. bang your favorite low movie. Let's get back to that like he's not gonna pick legally blonde a man come on this. So many law movies to kill a mockingbird. Choose that one. Is he a black person. Jaki twelve angry men the coal target demographic for the trump campaign rudy giuliani's favorite law movies. The first twenty minutes of tequila balking at the sydney palaces mother extraordinarily Extraordinary things she claimed that the software's most one of its most characteristic features is is it's ability to flip votes it can set and run an algorithm that probably she said ran all over the country to take a certain percentage of votes from the and flip them to biden which it did apartment the fact that it did not Not in reality. Anyone dimensions that operating on at the moment. I'm and i don't say it wasn't the other really can blame. The you know an algorithm for flipping votes from trump to buy i think the reason votes flipped from trump to biden as trump Being an enormous vote flipping could be a factor earlier in the week Household fox business. She was going to release the kraken. The kraken is a legendary giant squid like sea monster from ancient norse sagas and to be honest. That was the most believable thing anyone in trump's legal shit squad. how said since the election. I mean there are more likely to unveil a gargantuan. Kill a scandinavian mythical octopus than find enough evidence. To overturn the election results. It might even be assigned of a willingness to roll back on some of their more outlandish claims. She also claimed that trump had beat beaten biden by a landslide by a landslide reminiscent of when pompeii beat mount vesuvius when absolute pyroclastic surge. Even tucker carlson on fox has blasted julie audio for lack of evidence. At when you're getting criticized by tucker carlson you know it is time to put your fishing. Wrote back in the back. Pack up your sandwiches fold up. You're still police back in your bag. Climb one way. All other of the whales intestine and admit that you're fishing trip has not gone. Well it's like being accused of unethical. Business practices by lex. Luther king of baseless nonsense. I think you'll slightly legally shaky ground. I think tucker. Carlson was able to legally defend himself in call by claiming that no one takes anything he says. Ask chris by need to check that stuff. Us from getting sued indeed factcheck. This and kid is nothing else to do. And indeed is correct. And you'll find at least one link in the show notes. I can't believe trump's legal attempts to overturn election result of all being stymied when his principal lawyer is a ban who was tricked by barra and whose entire legal education seems to be from the film. My cousin possibly happen. I mean twenty. Twenty two to return to the more important is the heads are running down his face. I mean i thought. I'm gonna tectonic hotline opening in rudy giuliani's cheek and if so the thing that would symbolize this millennium. So was he sweating. Pure duck guilt. Oh was ever roic. I'll be of ants marching down his face to crawl across to his mouth and somehow shots with their ads corpses. It was truly extraordinary. But an old man verbally thrashing against reality a half wit houdini trying and failing to escape from a perfectly normal overcoat that he's deliberately put on back to front with one single bug button. Done up giuliani's now completed his gradual determines metamorphosis into a visibly melting manned mirage cocooned in an inescapable prison of his own explosive delusions manure in the fertile sort of demagoguery with the mammoth shit of confected conspiracy apart ghost part manifestation of the floors endangers of our politics media an economics with hats. I running down. His face fights. Everyone fights hughes down his furious cheeks. Weeping physical metaphor for modern america so that this was the top story this week i would also say that as much as obviously it's intrinsically larry's at everything about it is ridiculous and offensive and disgusting. It could still work out the last four years. I am slightly amazed when i see people saying. Oh this is. it's biden's won the election. What's the big deal i. I'm old enough to remember al going to lay around a gang. It turns out you actually lost even though you got the most votes so there's no reason to assume that when it comes to actually selecting the electives because the process by which they could steal this election effectively is by having the electors who get sent to. The electoral college replaced by republican favoring state legislatures. And if you don't think that could happen you have not been paying enough attention to the last four years. This is a critical moment for american democracy. I'd like a storm cloud shaped like an ass or a mild burning sensation. When you pay. Just because it involves things brackets butts and penises. They're inherently and seem ridiculous doesn't mean is it something about which you should be deeply deeply concerned. American democracy needs to go to the clinic and get its dick checked. Be about to be in a lot of gig. Trouble could be patriot or it could be the death of democracy quick breaking news before we move on a slightly related to that story. The international association of fact checkers has announced a global strike and called on the united nations to impose a maximum allowance of fifteen lies per leader per day plus an optional. Extra twenty lies to be perpetrated by official spokespeople and or lawyers They've complained about inhuman working conditions and brutally long hours so Ah thoughts with all of them. Britain news now and we're back britain as back britt. Sonya is going to rule the waves again. Thanks to our glorious king. Boris johnson announcing a new plan to mike britain. Once again europe's foremost naval power nash. You are of course. The bugles a naval warfare correspondent role which are extremely seriously now. Yeah i do i do. I do take incredibly seriously Yeah it's absolutely unbelievable. News because boris johnson has taken one. Look at the things that are threatening britain. Today he's taken one. Look in the year of our lord brackets asks for the polytheists amongst us twenty twenty. And he said you know what we need is a once in a generation modernization of the armed forces lost. We are going to be arming ourselves. And why guess what we're about to shoot the kuroda virus right in king mouth for too long this virus this i'll say piece of shit been running roughshod over us and it's time for us to tool up and strike back. It's time for us again. Uzi turn sideways gangster style and absolutely unload a clip full right in this airborne viruses. Goddamn fight it's an absolutely inexplicable of Of jingoistic dick swigging. That helps absolutely no one unfortunately couldn't have been worse timed given the this morning. There's a breaking story that the chancellor rishi sue nyc is a potentially about to announce a series of cost cutting measures by pay freezing public sector workers including the keller because that quite literally keeping people alive but at the end of the day. You don't need that if your arms to the headache how better to cure in the by your head blown off by a of shotgun. Problem solved problem. Saw econo- headache if you don overhead think through liberals you say that they can't spend money on defense although it's not where i would spend the money. Some people believe that you should but the if you go to spend money on defense then you have to be able to spend money on other things as well. You continent cut of the things and go. Oh sorry 'cause because it's not we don't need it right now. Think so. What i'm saying is i have proposed a list of things that they should fund instead or at the same time till march. Yeah no because. I love christmas that because winter and the darkness is very hot in the first three months of the year and twenty twenty has somehow been worse than the year. That rickman prince. George michael and david bowie died so a little bit of extra light isn't going to hurt anyone and also make them sad lights as in seasonal affective disorder lots because depression is real and long now number two more animal shows on tv. Yeah member in the eighties and the nineties and they were just always just random shows favoring a very nervous vet as a guest and in some ray endangered animals. And everyone's like yeah. We're gonna put it in front of a live studio audience with two hundred screaming children and unregulated lighting. And then that year. And i don't everything in the house would be like getting tetanus we don't want loss. It's just a bit more of that. You know that's what. I think these units and finally i'd like the government to invest in a campaign to make the phrase. Sorry the places such a mess when you're not actually a mess illegal. I have been to people's places a long time ago. Who had three kids under five and the house was spotless. And they were embarrassed or pertaining to be embarrassed and they're like oh yeah. Sorry the places a mess. Well you know what my flats is shit hall and i have a cleaner. Think it's is. Money spent a metaphor for britain. The other government spending news. Due to budgetary constraints government backed projects tackling. The bullying of lgbtq plus students in england schools have their funding pulled. Thera funding was four million pounds over six years to put that in context. Eighteen hours worth of detroit nuclear deterrent. And that's just the annual operating cost of trident not the the whole out light or even usage of it. That's just the existing but we can't afford we can't afford four million pounds to prevent bloomberg's consistent isn't it if it it government's bullying strategy. They've kept pretty patel on his home secretary who's found who have bullied civil servants. It would be hypocritical to pretend that. Give a shit about being schools. Look a thing if one group of people had it too good too long. Eighty s l. Take you our children. When are we gonna stop supporting them. We we've thrown every main. They're in high school. They know how to write. What else do you want. Some onto his down a peg. Yeah i think. I trust anyone more with that. The the prime minister who wants use the phrase top bub boys to be fair. If there's one thing. Boris johnson knows about it's bullying. Lg takes the eighth to catch a thief. Yes the league story has also as also cover read its ugly head and let me tell you as someone who has spent thirty five years being bullied by women of south asian descent. Let me tell you. it's no fun but in my case at least my mother also used to make me dinner for me. There was at least some carrot sometimes quite literally to go stay when i read the headlines about her bullying. I'm like a telling me the woman who looks like she post coyly rips the head off a sexual partner has been trolling people. But sounds very unlikely. I watching tv this morning. The health secretary matt hancock stared down the barrel of the sky. News camera and said miss patel was incredibly courteous. Hey must've been relieved that he had to lie about the government's covid response for so long so it made it really easy calling. Pretty patel courteous and respectful. He almost made it. Looks on unsee. Jacob race mugs on itta not quite understanding the coal to rally for pretty support. Cold her formidable. I think that's the problem. Jackie boy. She is formidable and she's been repeatedly described as being demanding. Now the idea of somebody being demanding is not know a bad innov- itself it just depends on what your demanding because if what you're demanding is the highest standards possible from your coworkers. Then it's all good. What you're demanding is your co-workers lunch money on threat of getting a full wedgie not fine. But boris johnson city will standpoint patel and leaked text message. That's doing the rounds of the british papers on their websites at the moment said that the government needs to protect the perimeter. Now i'll be honest what i heard. Boris johnson had described a high-ranking south asian member of his cabinet that was not the p. word music a- the thing the reason that she's not being fired is because they're saying her bullying was unintentional will. Unintentional motor is still cold manslaughter. There's still a penalty involved is code nuance. Look it up boras. And while they get can. Hey kat star just but just the shit. Cherry on. The cake of all of this is that it's also anti bullying week of an education initiative by the department for education for less bullying. So that's britain. What a week. The country in other. Boris johnson news Boris johnson has told scotland to go get self not not quite in those words but he has been told a virtual meeting of conservative. Mp's that delusion has been quotes a disaster in scotland. I mean there might be a subtext of these coupla complicated word i mean i guess the point he was trying to mike maybe tangentially as that he is a career buffoon who shouldn't be left alone and unattended in charge of a kids looking spill alone whole country reading between the lines there of course but i mean competitive where thing to say he bangs on about how much he loves the united kingdom and he has a conservative and unionist party. I guess if you really really care about the united kingdom and want to keep it together. The best strategy is firstly to leave a mutually beneficial economic powerhouse court for detroit. Look against the wishes of of your four constituent nations causing potential decades of economic turmoil and then tell people of those nations that they can't be trusted with their own countries and need some tweet from eton to tell them what's good for them. That is rock solid tactics. The snp member pollen drew. Henry describe burst johnson's comments as lying. The contempt that he has for the people of scotland. Well don't think you're so special. Scott boris johnson has contempt for everyone to hear that rebulk to see. Boris johnson would have been like thank you. What's what's behind me in my virtual backgrounds. Oh since you. Oscar is very much luck. Twenty twenty vision bugle. Christmas jumper of which there are still some available of believe. Chris has also some new lines in the Hugely extensive much range coming outs a talk. Talk through it. Yeah i was. I wondering if you might pass that over and as he appears already forgotten what you saw in guys the toad the ease with which you guys segue from the sort of chat into the heavily scripted advertising guitar stuff. Go to the bugle podcasts. Dot com and from black friday. You can get a beagle scarf and bugle hat and a half a glass of audits asia. Ed's all your christmas shopping silted. i'm going to get jump. I love it oranges. Not michael up. But i want to kind of look like christmas and halloween at the same time. This is a real holiday jump. School thousands household uses australia news now. And there's been some well a little lockdown issues in australia lot of Confusion and people started hotels getting increasingly agitated. And it's affected the australian cricket team. Now felicity we did Done creek podcast over the years On suv anglo australian cricket. I know you're in very close contact with the australian cricket captain. Tim pain yeah it's Look self madness ahead of the one day international and test some series coming up your friend and mine. Captain team pain has been asked to go into self isolation ahead of the games as adelaide his head a surge of new covid cases the restrictions of the toughest enforced australia. Saw for sixty lockdown is leaving my house for the entire time. No exercise mosques are imperative if you leave the house for food. Shopping medical essentials and only one person can go to do that The south australian premier. Stephen marshall said the most aggressive and australian message to people about why. We're doing this. So this is an elected official said this. He said that the state was going hard and going early and then he said we cannot white to say how bad these becomes which could be easily misread as we can white to say how bad this become. Very important to look at inflection. There isn't that the government's policies to the environment as well isn't it becomes joy very exciting stuff on the edge of their say so they've had a surge and and you can't imagine how many is ten thousand day scholley. Is it a thousand. A day as the population is much smaller than it can't be that big. Let me just google it. Well that must be a mistake. It says he then. The number of new covid cases has ballooned to twenty two twenty two thousand nine. I mean must be twenty two well. That's a slightly different approach to the you know. H so due to my very close relationship with tim tam I have an excerpt from his upcoming autobiography slash diary slash coal. It how i say it. No hold bod expose called no pain. No gain d. May i am writing these from my hotel room in adelaide or is the rest of australia. Corlett rat light. Or as i'd like to dedicate it to my parents mom and dad alight. The news has told me that they've been contagion. Breakout of the corolla virus. And it's true. There are many toyota corollas in adelaide. I hope people can afford 'cause soon but it's always hard with the economic downturn of a pandemic. The news was so boring. So i watch contagion to get a more accurate picture of. What's going on really surprised. How many monkeys involved saying as though the only ones i've seen since bane he wanted adelaide zoo but come to think of it. They did look suspicious wondering how the is will affect the upcoming one day. International and tessema series. It shouldn't be a problem saying as though sponsored by toyota but everyone seems to be getting sick from it maybe they just need a tune-up of been sitting in my apartment for three days now. I haven't seen anyone. I have watched grace one and grace to and the backlog of god his world with monty don. I really got into it in the. Uk lost ashes series. You're a member when i opted to ball at the even though that was a king stupid thing to do. Yeah well. I finally came to that realization on day. Three and i decided to dissociate from reality by watching gardening programs. While i'm happy to report that my rhododendrons are an explosion of kalat around my humble garden. And i still haven't revisited the emotional repercussions of that career decision. I'm sure it will never come up over too. Many bees and being cold timbo the bimbo one too many times by middle management bullies in crooked australia. Because that's the hot tag candy. Well it could see soldiering soldering out of mom and data ridiculous decision. I mean of dumb. That's absolute mad behavior. That's the mad as on behavior. Like like if you asked to six year. Old like eva. Okay you can play cricket. What do you do you want. Beto ball bat the bat always bat. You always bat and this one where we combat and it was good data bat. We should've embedded andy. I'm sorry. I will be back next week. If you've got any shows or a other podcasts that you'd like to tell us about might taught damage. I had a baby. nothing laugh. if it's not written down it doesn't get say okay. I dunno check with my agent paying me wondering me with questions. A on december the third. I'll stand up show of mine. Cold ruben nations on the nature of subjectivity is going to appear i believe. That's the word on amazon prime right onto amazon prime as part of the soho theatre which is a wonderful comedy in london have recorded a bunch of specials in this this this great shows going on. They're lazy susan show one of my favorite shows are the metal bugler valuable globally wonderful question. No idea in my experience of the audience of this podcast that is not an impediment people interacting with this. You seem to and this is said with love. Be a pack of kim criminals loose That's might be show the end of the year as well. I haven't fully decided so we've got. We've all plugged something until next week. Goodbye we will now play out with more lies about our premium voluntary subscribers to join them. They bugle podcast. Dot com and click the donate button to make a one owner karen donation to help show for flushing and independent levine. Daniel gersh was delighted to triumph in a competition to win a year's supply of fish however he was subsequently disappointed when that year's supply fish was delivered in one go on the first of january dumped off the back of a lorry outside his front door. The novelty of rotting sardines had definitely worn off by. Mid-march confirms daniel. Some more thinks that nations should appoint an official or jimmy. Sam explains we have arch bishops. So we know who the bishops bishop is so one off enemies. It would help us prioritize all general geopolitical and social concerns as well as defense budgets. Tony cook often wonders what today celebrities would have done. If they'd been alive in the past he thinks that nine thousand nine hundred ten stall pam shriver would have been a sculptor actor. James woods would have been an exorcist but not a particularly good one and rostock keith. Richards would have been a very badly behaved. Pope eli lama is disappointed about how few lentil discoveries have been made in history whilst penicillin microwave ovens velcro. Great says eli. It seems a shame that no one has accident. You discovered a type of bread. That makes you love it or a self warming shoe rob. Hamilton has been thinking a great deal about alternative non-custodial and retributive sentences for less serious crimes to ease pressure. The world's prisons rope theorize. Reckon if it would be criminal knew for example that they have tv remote controlled by the victim of their crimes. For the next ten years they would think very carefully before nicking that temptingly steelers garden. David cooper is much taken with the idea. Of irritating robin custodial sentences and adds that he thinks a ban on using any form of cup gloss would be really crime preventing the irritating as would being forced to use light bulbs program to blow off the twenty five minutes use and a legal obligations use cattle. That beeps loudly for half an hour every time you boil it. A correspondent known as dr crazy cat lady regrets that life has become less spontaneous and believes that the government should launch an official new program to reestablish spontaneity in society through various well organized schemes to train people. How to live more off the cuff. Louis over perhaps ten to twenty year period. You're right. It is a bit counterintuitive. Says dr crazy cat lady but i reckon it could work. Just give it a bit of time. John spratt managed to convince a credulous work colleague that amongst his many legacies in the english language shakespeare invented the phrases few scorcher. Good golly miss molly and pull my finger as well as writing. A character called corporal crap head in the first draft of a fellow gaetan boy who surname is frankly absolute mess of vowels in the letter. L the phrase. You pay peanuts you get. Monkeys is not actually valid. Gaetana explains i once tried to pay for an original nineteen sixties vinyl of lost train to clarksville by the monkeys with top of dry roasted peanuts. To what i thought was the equivalent financial value of the record. And well let me tell you did not get monkeys a strongly worded invitation to leave the shops quickly as possible and finally steve terry had an almost equal and opposite experience. I found set of keys in a hedge when walking near a monastery relates. Steve don't ask he adds anyway. I took into the monasteries lost property office and they were absolutely delighted. Yes they said. We can finally get into our player again in gratitude. They gave me in exchange for the keys a book of charlie brown cartoons so effectively. I paid monkeys. Got pay knots. Here end this week's lies to the bugle. podcast dot com and click the donate button.

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Feliz Dia Novo  O Seu Primeiro Programa com Isabel Maral e Rachel Aon

Feliz Dia Novo

1:07:08 hr | 3 weeks ago

Feliz Dia Novo O Seu Primeiro Programa com Isabel Maral e Rachel Aon

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Mecca Under Siege

Throughline

44:57 min | 11 months ago

Mecca Under Siege

"A quick warning before we start the show, there are several scenes depicting violent events in this episode. The morning of November Twentieth Nineteen seventy-nine would have seemed like any other in Mecca. Warm, the sky was clear. Much of the city was preparing for. Fudge prayer the first of five for the day. The season of hedge had just ended and pilgrims from around the world gathered in slums, holiest site, the measured that hud him or grandma ask. A massive compound, surrounding the Gaba, an ancient black cubic building that sits in the middle of a vast courtyard. Muslims call it the House of God the earthly place. They direct their prayers. In the Islamic calendar, who was the first of Mahatma in the year fourteen hundred. The first day of the new century when the people of Mecca own pilgrimage to the shrine. Around one hundred thousand pilgrims filled. The courtyard lined up in concentric circles, facing the Kaaba for failure prayer. Just as the prayer ended. Shots rang out. This wasn't a sound. Any pilgrim expected to hear. Violence is strictly forbidden in Mecca. Before the pilgrims could figure out what was happening. A man followed by three gunmen emerged from the crowd and began walking fiercely towards the mosques, mom. The crowd parted as the man charged them in Bud or pitch, and snatched the mic from the terrified among. The man began to speak Arabic in Fiqh Bedouin accent. He was tall and thin with brown skin and long wavy hair. His name was John Hayman tape. The hundreds of armed men he commanded scattered across the grounds of the mosque, yelling orders at the pilgrims and Arabic English and do. Some of the men snipers climbed seven minarets, surrounding the main grounds and took up positions. Downtown Mecca Joe Heymann instructed them. Eight June Demon Kumai. You're fired. WHO THE DOT COM RELA? If you see a government soldier wants to raise his hand against. You have no pity and shoot him because he wants to kill you. The Saudi police protecting the mosque were armed with little more than batons. Two guards were killed immediately. Many others ran for their lives. Many of the pilgrims and the mosque began chanting Llahu Akbar, or God is the greatest something Muslims in doing trying moments soon the militants also joined in the Chin and the chaos reached a climax just as Johanna announced. He and his men were now in control. And with that, it was clear. Islam's holiest site and one hundred thousand people have been taken hostage. The siege of Mecca an event that would forever Change Arabia and the Muslim world. Had Begun. What was Saudi Arabia like before Nineteen seventy-nine? We were living a very normal life like the rest of the Gulf countries. Were driving cars. There were movie theaters in Saudi. Arabia women worked everywhere. We were just normal people developing like any other country in the world until the events of Nineteen seventy-nine. The Hajj is an annual multiday pilgrimage to Islam's holiest city Mecca. Muslims are required to perform hajj once in their lives if they can afford it and are physically able to participate. Some people save their whole lives to be able to make the pilgrimage. And normally it's an incredible gathering of different cultures and languages. Last year close to two point, five million people from dozens of countries around the world traveled to Saudi Arabia for Hajj. Recently the Saudi Arabian government announced that hedge would be restricted Saudi citizens because of the COVID nineteen pandemic. The News sent shockwaves through the Muslim world. Instead of millions there'll only be around a thousand pilgrims this year. So we wanted to revisit an episode from last year about another time in recent history, when Mecca was in crisis, and hedge was disrupted as you heard at the top of the episode in one. Thousand nine hundred seventy nine militants violently took the holy mosque hostage. A two week standoff ensued. That would impact multiple countries in startling new era in Saudi Arabia and the Muslim world. Before nineteen, seventy-nine Saudi Arabia like much of the Middle East was experiencing rapid economic growth from surging oil prophets. This often also came with technological modernisation and cultural reforms, the militants who stormed the grand mosque like many religious extremists in the region. Felt that the reforms were going too far so when Joe Hayman. and his band of militants took over the Grand Mosque the inadvertently. The opportunity extremists already clergy to grab power and what they did without power has shaped the world. We live in today. This is humiliating. Watson and I'm listening to through line. which is awesome. podcast show, thank you. Support for this podcast and the following message come from wondering with murder in Hollywood land. It's a true story about the murder of the most famous film director of Nineteen Twenties Hollywood. The list of suspects was as long as the Oscars red carpet, and just as star-studded, and the investigation uncovered some of Hollywood's most scandalous affairs, backroom deals and shadowy drug dens to find out who killed William Desmond Taylor subscribe to murder in Hollywood land from wondering on Apple podcasts spotify or listen ad free on the wonder Yep. Why are honeybees dying? What was the key to finding the Cure Free Bola? And how do the invention of the light bulb changed the way we sleep? We have answers to those questions. Thanks to some amazing black scientists whose work we're celebrating all this week on shortwave the daily science podcast from NPR. Every Muslim. is to make a pilgrimage to Mecca once in their life while they're pilgrims will spend a lot of their time in the Grand Mosque a massive facility that covers over four hundred thousand square feet. It's a sanctuary where violence even in its smallest form is forbidden. So as you can imagine, many of the pilgrims were there in the mosque on the morning of November twentieth. Realize just how serious the situation was. Most people were horrified by what had happened. Most people that were inside the mosque were besides themselves. This is Joe Keshishian senior fellow at the king. Faisal. Center for Research and Islamic Studies and Joe says as the rebels delivered their manifesto. Chaos erupted in the mosque. The militants had blocked all of the gates to prevent hostages from getting out. Once, the chaos I down there were tens of thousands of pilgrims trapped in the mosque, being controlled by hundreds of armed gunmen. Initially there wasn't a major response from local authorities. It appeared as though the entire city was in shock. But at this point, you might be asking who is Joe Hayman. What motivated him? and. How did he end up? Staging this attack? Before we answer any of that, we have to go over some basics about Saudi Arabia and get a sense for what was happening there in the years leading up to nineteen, seventy nine. These are the treasure houses of an ancient desert kingdom, a land, the size of western Europe. Where the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is named after the family of God starting in the eighteen hundreds they try to unite Bedouin tribes to take control of the peninsula. They captured lost control of some parts of Arabia, but never fully controlled it for long periods of time. But after generations of struggle, they were finally able to become rulers of Arabia in nineteen, thirty, two after the fall of the Ottoman. Empire they established a country and named it after themselves, and by controlling Islams to holiest cities, Mecca and Medina, they became credible remains shetty fan in Arabic, which means the custodian of the Two Holy Mosques and incredible responsibility. But in order to achieve this position, the house events, our would enlisted. The help of conservative Muslim fighters called the when. Others. The Hawaiian were followers of the WAHABBI interpretation of Islam. What hobbies reject any attempts to modernize a slum and proselytize and often historically inaccurate puritanical view. Their religious fanaticism made them extremely effective soldiers for the Saudi army. The country that the Saudi family controlled was poor and extremely underdeveloped. Most people lived as they had for centuries, but in nineteen, thirty eight, a major resource was discovered in Saudi Arabia. Polio. Land of little water and too much oil that would probably described the dilemma of which is only just realizing its importance in the twentieth century, those tragedy by the late nineteen seventies, oil revenues meant that the kingdom will slowly, but surely modernizing was developing was opening up to the outside world. Would CH- urged some of the most conservative elements in the kingdom. This is Yorislav trough him of a been covering the Muslim world's for nudity cates for the Wall Street Journal. He's a longtime Middle East reporter who wrote the book? The siege of Mecca things like television was still very controversial, and the attempts by the royal family to bring the country into more and more than age women went to the beach, wearing swimsuits the war, the Abaya, but Dow by it was not an imposed item, but this apparent betrayal of Wahabbi principles wasn't the only thing that angered many conservatives. Economic progress in the country wasn't happening everywhere and many small towns and villages, Bedouin didn't always have the same access to resources as their fellow city-dwelling citizens. So, many of the man who fit in that second group, felt not only disgusted by the modernization in the country, but they also felt left behind by it in a monarchy obviously They're always injustices We're not talking about a democracy or a democratizing society, so they're always individuals that are left out of the system and one young Bedouin. The son of an and fighter felt both of these slights. His name was Johann and Dany. Man. From one of the most prominent tribes of Saudi, Arabia I'll. and he was at the beginning destined to become a foot soldier in the national. Guard James Served in the National Guard Saudi Arabia's army for many years, but eventually he became more and more interested in studying slum. He started studying the University of Medina under Shaping Buzz, who was leading cleric, and then would late become the mufti of Saudi Arabia, and he became in hammered by be teaching teachings of several prominent. Clerics he started getting the following that he had at the Slam University of Medina and started to proselytize as much as possible. The potential changes that he wished to bring to the country to Hama Taybe opposed the presence of foreigners, the presence of Western embassy humor, anathema and other things like television women on television. He rejected the establishment. He fought back. There was an alternative and that there ought to be an alternative to reformulate Johanna and really opposed any. Non, Muslim Non Wahabbi penetration of Saudi Arabia's. We didn't like the fact that a Western embassies key decry the fact is the flag of the cross flying of buildings in our country, and what he calls is for justice. He calls for the rule of law, and that he himself is going to go ahead and everything back in order. He's going to save Saudi Arabia from these bad rulers sell. He really wanted to of to create a pure Islamic state, which is not different from what's for example Isis. A one or two more modern times. Jaymon was a true believer. He lived an austere pious life. He refrained from modern luxuries like television. And he was an excellent recruiter for the conservative movement he row and shared his thoughts widely and began to organize his followers be created the span. Let's say often individuals at some point. That's alarm. The Saudi authorities dozens of members of Japan's or Were detained and Joe Hayman enlisted his former teacher Xiaobin Baz. To help. And then shaping buzz intervened, all of the detainees were released. This could have crushed the movement, but instead. Group continued organizing at this time. John Hayman was just one of many emerging leaders in the conservative movement in the Kingdom. But then something happened that set him apart as he was going on this path. He had this dream about his brother in long and decided that he was going to be Mattie. The mattie is debated mysterious concept in a slum. It isn't mentioned in the good on, but basically the idea is this at some point? A Messianic figure called the matthey. Who according to some traditional interpretations is going to come from the same Arab tribe as the Prophet Muhammed and even have the same physical features and name as the Prophet. Overturn to usher in the day of judgement, Joe Hayman became convinced that his soon to be brother in law. Mohammed bin Abdullah. was, the Mattie. Looked at him and looked at the descriptions of how should. In the head eighth in the sayings of Prophet Mohammed. The physical descriptions to the name You know it all kind of seemed to match for him. To the best of our knowledge, it appears set your Haymond genuinely believed his soon to be brother in law was the Mattie, and that led him to a serious conclusion, preaching and winning followers wasn't enough. Action needed to be taken. The Saudi government had to be removed. But interestingly this is where he differed from other religious conservatives like his teacher shift in Baz. Buubas really at the time endorsed a lot of the criticism that to him had against the the state of Saudi Arabia at the time. Buzz would say well. Yes, this is wrong. That is wrong. That is also wrong, but we should not. disobey the King Because. The king is the guarantee that our way of seeing Islam our way of doing things we preserved against the infidels who for the most Harlan how clerics would be any other Muslim? Alternately even bin Baz disapproval wouldn't be enough to sway Joe Hayman's determination to get rid of the Saudi royal family. And his ability to wage, an attack got even stronger after he started attracting foreign followers to his movement, he won followers from all over the Middle East especially Egypt. Some of these followers had come from the Muslim Brotherhood a well organized Islamic, political machine. And, so you really have this marriage of the Saudi hobbies zeal with canceled, Johann and the ready mades Islamic militancy that came from Egyptian and some other foreigners who came to Saudi Arabia so you had the of the fusion of the theology with the organization skills and violent extremism by nineteen, seventy-nine Joe Hayman's group grew to include hundreds, if not a thousand or more members. They were motivated and capable of a well planned attack on the Saudi regime. Johanna and his followers had a radical idea. They were going to attack Islam's holiest site the Grand Mosque of Mecca. Which is blasphemous act but Janine came up with his own religious interpretation to justify it. He figured it would be a strike right at the heart of Saudi legitimacy after all if they couldn't protect these holy sites, should they be in charge of them? He hoped it would gain the attention of the world and usher in an Islamic revolution and the day of judgement. They planned the attack for the first day of Moghadam in the year fourteen hundred days somma calendar, which happened to be nineteen seventy-nine. The Mecca Mosque is a huge facility and millions of people go in and out every year, so the doors are almost never locked. Janis, people prepare pre well. They drove pickups. Full of weapons into the tunnels. in the catacombs below the Holy Shrine Akaba. Theories are they were able to do this by bribing guards and by using a dark but ingenious technique to bring weapons into the mosque. People bring him bed dead to perform lost ritual sprayers, and so on so the plot of this band was essentially to introduce weapons. In coffins. Jamie and his militants dressed as pilgrims they grab their weapons, and emerged from the underground, mixing in with the pilgrims, and they took over the facility, shut down the doors, and human stepped up to Ripley. The microphone announced up the Mattie had return. And the Liberation of Saudi Arabia would start. One might say that must've programs at the time in the mosque were not fluent in Arabic, because people from Pakistan from Indonesia from Turkey from Africa. And, so and even the one swath wounding Arabic. Goodness, it understand Hamann's bedroom accents. A confusion and and people doing this thing was going on until. Fighting starts. When we come back the siege of Mecca turns into A. Battle. Calling from Akron Ohio and you're listening to true. Support for NPR comes from Newman's own foundation, working to nourish the common good by donating all profits from Newman's own food products to charitable organizations that seek to make the world a better place. More information is available at Newman's own foundation dot org I'm Gregory Warner with NPR's rough translation, so there's a holiday in the Netherlands where every year thousands of white folks where black face some people are trying to end that tradition, but in a very Dutch way, you talk, you talk you talk you talk you talk until you reach consensus. Can you fight racism in a way that brings the whole country with you? That's on NPR's rough translation. By mid morning, November twentieth the scene in downtown Mecca was chaos Joe Hayman, and his followers had seized the grandmas taking nearly one hundred thousand scared panicking hostages. Word began spreading throughout the city that there was an incident at the shrine. At the time there were construction crews working for the Saudi bin. Laden Group A company owned by the father of Osama bin Laden renovating parts of the mosque. Those workers immediately alerted authorities. Police were deployed to end the siege, but when officers tried to approach mosque. Were Charlotte's. From the MENARDS MENARDS and massacre. Anyone who dared enter the mosque grounds was shot. And Soon Saudi authorities they start to send more troops, but the troops refused to fight. Now, the soldiers and the and the National Guards. Knew that it's forbidden to, even you know. Harming birds in the holy precinct let alone bringing weapons. Let alone shoot weapons. Initial! Assaults approved to be very costly because the facility is like a fortress or very high walls, and you have to climb on top of them, and they'll sharp shooters are shooting on the soldiers basil. German realized that scene he cannot keep people in there because they need food that he toilets that heat water. So, we appreciate period of Time Hewlett Muslim go. Wants the Saudis understood the seriousness of the situation? They realized they had a problem as the custodians of the holy cities they were embarrassed by their inability to keep programs safe, so they tried to keep the news of the siege from getting out of Mecca Saudi Arabia. Immediately cut phone lines to Mecca they really mashes. Suppress it for several hours. And nobody knew what is going on. Say. Yeah and Really. Worth dictatorship there. Like in the company was ready for one day. After the siege ended, he was there really a siege in Mecca in my opinion shit. This is Adnan Rube. He lived in Saudi Arabia at the time of the siege. He explained that local people knew something was happening in the GRANDMAS, but nothing about who was responsible. There was a lot of confusion. These. Were easy, for people. To their, information. There were even some people in outskirts of Mecca would not know what was happening. It was a total news blockage. And God only knows we did not know what the true really. Why a lot of January Caspian. The United States one of Saudi. Arabia's closest allies also didn't know who was responsible so when President Carter. Gathering his advisors in the White House. The information they had at. This must have been the work of the Iranians. The Islamic Revolution overthrew Iran's Shaw or king earlier that year, and the new Iranian government was immediately antagonistic towards the house out. There was still holding hostages at the American Embassy in Tehran when the siege in Mecca started, so the US government within hours of the attack concluded that Iran must have done. Something must have trouble in holy mosque and so administration officials actually blamed Iran the time. And Sant Heff carrier Golfing in in response, Iran's response was denial, and then to blame the US for the siege. It'll Haney obviously went on the air and said No. No, it's the Americans sending. You know Jews to desecrate Holy Site. This message made its way all over the Slavic world and many people believed Khomeini's assertion. This conspiracy theory about the American involvement spread much much faster. Around the Muslim world and really fueled island, which China thousands of Pakistan's inflamed by rumors that the United States had invaded Mecca burned the US embassy here trapping about one hundred Americans and embassy employees for five hours, and the heavily secured top floor courtroom. One Marine Guard was shot and killed during the attack in Pakistan mouths. To cover and. An embassy. Near the rights in India was the rights. And the Italian, American Embassy in Tripoli in Libya about two thousand demonstrators stormed the United States Embassy in Libya today, shouting slogans in support of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini anti-american policies. And even Mohammed Abbas yet that Turkish militant who tried to kill the pope play Tron. was also motivated by this. The Saudi government made a couple of announcements the days after the siege began. They acknowledged that there was an ongoing crisis in the Grand Mosque but offered little beyond. Official Saudi comments on slightest. RBIS AMAC only appeared to he as later. As word of the siege began seeping out of Mecca. The Saudis realized they needed end it quick and to do that. They had to stage an actual full scale military assault. But remember? It's forbidden in Islam to commit acts of violence in Mecca so the Saudis needed a religious decree or fatwa from the kingdom's clergy or Ulama to go ahead with the assault, so then he had fatwa from the religious authorities that would authorize depression and fatal wasn't forthcoming because religious authorities. WanNa extracted price for that. Okay, so remember shift Bin Baz, Joe. Teacher, the guy, who helped get his men out of jail. Toshiba's was the dean of the adversity Islamic University of Medina so he was probably. The most respected, Islamic scholar at the time and the want to whom their family. It felt like they had to look. After days of frustration, the Saudi King holid- summoned shapes, bimbos, and the leading members of the. To the capital for a sit down. and. It was a very difficult to me. Because bin Baz, and the others were saying bit well. You know there are problems in our country. Bowl this, the morals are very loose. Solis forbidden things happening. We must do something about. What were the specific demands? But the the the demands, where for example more restrictions of women's rights, but most importantly what the wanted is that? They wanted to burst out of Saudi Arabia because the had this global mission of Dow of spreading. The view slum to the rest of the misguided to Muslim nations. And and they needed the backing of the Saudi state for that. The support of the Saudi government allowed that Wilmot Open schools, mosques, and charities all around the Muslim world from Nigeria Indonesia. We have to stop for a second here and emphasize the importance of this moment. Up Until Nineteen, seventy nine, the outsold had made a very specific arrangement deal with the religious establishment. There is no interference in each other's business. The Saudi's feared that this arrangement could be in jeopardy if the Ulama were able to extract these new demands. But Joe says even knowing the risks. There really weren't many options for King Holiday and the Royal Family he had no choice but to acquiesce to the demands. This was great bargain between the Lima and and house of Saudi which they said Okay we will support you and is critical moment we will authorize the military operation in phonies, but in exchange you know you will allow us to use the resources of the Saudi state to further our cause. Throw the Muslim the Muslim nation where the clerics involved at all in orchestrating this siege. I have seen no evidence that the actually up to this, but the surgeon took advantage of this. further Oh night ideas. It took three long days for the clerics depend the fatwa allowing for Saudi authorities to use violence to take back the Grand Mosque. The Saudi forces made preparations, and while the clerics had been negotiating the fatwa, the Saudis had finally done another thing. They made public statements acknowledging that their own people responsible for the attack while the Saudis had to make this declaration because the Americans, but Presi them and the US government saying Hello Mike. You have to say it's not us, and so the House of so did make statements and the blamed miscreants. This is audio of a message. Saudi authorities blasted into the mosque over loudspeakers, pleading with militants to end the takeover. Was unsaid with fire and Merg respect on the Muslims by the renegade. Joe? Hayman didn't end it. So within hours of the fatwa being issued the Saudi forces began their assault. Take back the GRANDMAS. Service assaults were conducted Saudi military brought an armored vehicles, commandos, and even tanks, this lodge Johanna and his fighters. John has spent the week digging in initially they fail, but after taking heavy losses, Saudi security forces finally made their way into the grandmas grounds. You had. Personnel carriers in the M one one threes, driving into into the holiday precinct and firing in other words, a machine gun position of the rebels, just behind the cab others an elliptical wall, just in front of it. The Saudis made progress, but at a very high cost, the fighting was intense and dead bodies littered the grounds of the mosque. But by the end of the first week, they managed to clear out the surface parts of the mosque. Jehan was prepared for this. His fighters retreated along with a small number of hostages to a place beneath the Grand Mosque and Kaba for their last stand under the mosque, there is Warren of flavor in center and catacombs since ancient storage areas. That was really hard. To penetrate because. How do you go in and sell booby-trapped the pressure with continuing to mount on the Saudis to end the siege and so They really couldn't clear it on their own and so that they had to ask for help. So, the two countries that that could help was the US and was France Promo the US was that after the Vietnam War after all the congressional hearings and the position of restrictions on the. Activities of the CIA and all the leaks that come out the Saudis digitally trust the US and so the Saudis had a very good working relationship with the French at the time. Because the France, then was led by conservative government much more hardline than the administration in much more. Wig Take Action. Than the French sent. A small detachment of officers from the elite concentrated enforce. Will Guess. The French special forces propose using a non lethal gas to four South Hayman's militants supposed to knock out the militants, and then the Saudi troops in gas masks would come in and kill them or take them out. When we come back the brutal, ending the siege of Mecca. And how it changed Saudi. Arabia My name is editor Miramichi. You're listening through life. Support for this podcast and the following message come from the Walton Family Foundation where opportunity takes root. More information is available at Walton. Family Foundation Dot Org? November Twenty Eighth Nineteen seventy-nine. Over a week into the siege, most of the militants retreated under the Maas grounds. Only a few of the most hardcore militants remained above ground to fight. One of those people was the supposed Mandy Hamadan the. inner. They're stuck for the tear. Gas is firing those death. There is no medical care. But the were guided by belief and the Mati itself the supposed Mattie. And I would go onto the bullets and not be harmed by them. Saw was courage that comes from inability. Be Harmed. The militants fought back hard shooting a hail of bullets at the soldiers approached. Their fueled by a belief in the Mattie until he was harmed and killed, and then suddenly started to crumble. This was the guy who was supposed to usher in the end of the world. The militants couldn't believe he was dead and that that really demoralized. Thanks John Hayman had to convince them to stay on and fight. Things were about to get worse for the militants French. Troops arrived a few days later. The French troops themselves did not actually to make the they brought the gas that trained the Saudis and they stayed in the hotel tough. On December third the Saudi commandos began their final assault to end the siege. Be Released gas into the underground chambers. They were instructed by the French. A firefight soup. It was very chaotic. It was an environment where. Everybody was a Spanish. In the darkness and crossfire militants and hostages and soldiers were all killed. By the end of the day, many of the militants were dead, and dozens were arrested including John. Hayman himself pure dragged out. His soil clothes and as smoke in his face. and spread around the cameras. It. Diplomat, issue. Here for not be. Fitna Ezra. For one of the ringleaders of this wishes gang of renegades, looking really grim mumbling now that he's captured in a way to freight. A photos of the captured Milton's are haunting. There, they are dressed in long robes. Some with beards others as young as teenagers. Covered in dust, most of them had a look of shock and confusion on their faces. It was over the siege had failed. More than sixty people were arrested including draymond debut door, all tried and then beheaded. The executions did not all take place in Mecca. took place throughout Saudi Arabia in order for the government to send a clear message one and all that the justice of the also would be imposed. into. Hostages were killed. Civilians were killed. Troops were killed. Nobody knows exactly how many because I. The numbers that come out from the Saudis. After the facts are questionable and the real death toll may be much higher than than if you hunter that they say. This was a horrible event. Weeks of daily. Warfare! Sometimes hand to hand combat, so you can imagine only you can imagine the damage that was done and part of the cowboys were damaged. There were eye witnesses that went inside the mosque immediately after the assault. The degration of the facility. The the the blackened walls of the burn smell of flesh, and it was a horrible sight. On December fourth, the Saudi government was back in control of the Grand Mosque and they immediately proclaimed a great victory. Now. The extent of the damage was not not. That's world. They actually managed to keep a tight lid. Not, to reveal, just how bad things were just how much destruction? There was just too many casler. The Saudi government did their best to try to erase the event from the memory of its citizens. The was a book published shortly after this each that continual officials statements and decleration and the official active. That book was digging out of libraries and destroyed then suddenly, it was forbidden to mention that this has ever happened. was wiped off history books. He was shameful to admit that thin on such a major failure occurred. Also because up until not so long ago. Older People Haram Saudi Arabia time where still in power, saying the Ministry of Interior, the Ministry of Defence Head of national guards. the were all I didn't see positions, or in the case had national guards. who was the king up until you know just a few years ago? What are the ramifications of this event on Saudi Arabia and the world? By. The biggest vacation was that it stopped the modernization of Saudi Arabia Society for a very long time. Saudi Arabia became a very conservative country after nineteen seventy nine. It became very much interested in puritanism. For example movie theaters were banned. The condition of women became much more difficult to wearing of abayas. Even the Burkas to to close their their faces became much more prevalent. The liberal approach was essentially. In abeyance so. It dark chapter. Really started in the country, and at the same time it empowered the conservative flags of Saudi Arabia to know just control the social developments in the kingdom, but to export they very. Was Cheer Conservative vision of Islam. Around the world where it was really very marginal up until then. The religious establishment gained a great deal of power day they received large sums of money to build much many more mosques to gain control over the curriculum for students in universities and schools, so there are lots of peculiarities, suddenly become mainstream, suddenly young illiterate people going to see some Islamic guidance education all over the world in the village in Negeria you know or Java. With anything, this is what Islam is. Tree gave the Saudi establishment is massive, soft power, and the world and something that really fostered the development of Jihadi groups and and extremist groups from Najia Indonesia. Even though Hayman's mission ultimately failed his actions, and his apocalyptic view of Islam's future has had a lasting effect on other extremists. Was An inspiration to many extremists over the the past few decades Messianic Vision that issue hyman had. was added almost worked by wards by slam state. and. Refund is bracing. Oh. There's no way batch Hayman and his followers could have understood the impact. They would have I mean no one really did. But the fact is those fifteen days. Push Saudi Arabia and many parts of the Islamic world in a new direction. It allowed what was a fringe ideology while Hamas them to have more of an influence globally. In some places it completely refrained the faith, and in others it pushed people towards Milton apocalyptic view the Tad profound consequences. And today. We still live in the shadow of the siege of Mecca. That's it for this week's show. I'm Ramtane Louis I'm Rhonda Fateh. And you've been listening to. NPR. This episode was produced by me and me and Jamie York, Lawrence, lane, Kaplan, Levinson Lou Olkhovsky Niger Ayton Dr King for this episode was done by Stephanie Aids. Thank you to Mohamed Al DC Alex, early Nikolai. Hammer and of course runs dad. For his voiceover work, thanks. Thanks also to on your gunman and Jason Bullet I music was composed by round teen and his band drop electric and one last thing. We wanted to ask something of teachers thinking about next school year. Would maybe like to sneak in Summer Simon. Are there episodes of through line that you'd like your students to hear. Are there particular episodes that you found useful in teaching history that isn't in textbooks or doesn't get the treatment that deserves. If so love to hear from you. please. Leave a message at eight, seven, two, five, eight, eight, eight, eight, zero five again. The number is eight, seven, two, five, eight, eight, eight, zero five. If you have an idea or something on this show, please write is a through line at MPR dot org or find us on twitter at through line NPR thanks for listening.

Saudi Arabia Mecca Saudi Arabian government Joe Hayman. John Hayman Arabia Grand Mosque Mecca Saudi Arabia assault Saudi Arabia Society Johanna Saudi army National Guard Saudi Arabia Mattie United States Middle East NPR Grand Mosque of Mecca Mecca Mosque Saudi royal family
#hottakeoftheday podcast Episode 79 w/Ellen Wald, Author

#hottakeoftheday

1:19:04 hr | 6 months ago

#hottakeoftheday podcast Episode 79 w/Ellen Wald, Author

"Wage what is going on how to take Nation? It is drw here. Ellen is not used to my engaging personality and overwhelming excitement when I get to host the last time her and I were together was on a Shale sort of webinar learning teaching the basic. It was just really uplifting right so long but nonetheless, I am so excited because I'm a big fan boy and I have Ellen Walt who is among other things author of like literally a phenomenal called Saudi Inc. So we have so much to chat about but first Ellen, welcome to the show. How are you other than the jammed finger from the medicine ball incident. Thanks. Yep. Great, actually, it's it's a good week. So can't complain. Well, so so I don't know. I mean how many people tell you this but I woke up to you this morning because now that I'm banned on LinkedIn Twitter has become my new like thing and your post from the Forbes article today on Biden's position of fracking was the top thing in my feeds. I know it was like it's almost it's almost like social media is connected to my calendar knew that I was going to be interviewing you today and then fed you fed me your article in Forbes where you are writing about Biden's on-again-off-again confusing fracking picture and I want to set the record straight at least in your opinion. What is biting a position on fracking should he become president of the United States? Items position on fracking is whatever works for him. I think he is he I think he as a person has no opinion on fracking other than what would be best for him politically or you know for an in terms of the part. I think he's he's actually in a really tough position and same with with, Let Em about this on Forbes. Also after the vice presidential debate where she basically completely dodged the fracking question. I mean, it was put very very straightly to her and she basically just completely damaged it and and I actually wrote it that was it wasn't a bad move for her because she wasn't going to be a little win either way. She was either going to piss off the progressives of what she is absolutely one who want people to come out the yes, we're going to ban fracking we're going to end fossil fuel use and then the moderate Wing which says hold on like we need low energy crisis. As we can't function without that fossil fuels at this point. Let's be more pragmatic and she just dodged the question which was the best thing she could have done buying it on the other hand doesn't Dodge the question. He just says completely makes completely contradictory statements all the time. Like we're not going to ban fracking. I am absolutely going to ban fracking. Well, we're only going down a new fracking on federal lands. Well, we're absolutely going to phase out fossil fuels. Well, you know, you're talking about phasing out fossil fuels and seventy years. Okay, you could people people could buy off you talking about phasing them out in the next four years in a bind Administration. You're not going to get a lot of people getting behind that. So and it's so it's very interesting because like so the state of politics today, obviously, I mean social media is everywhere, right? Even if you just have a random rally someone films you post it if you're catering to a base like everything you say is there forever and so on the one hand job Some of the pushback that I've got from people on Twitter as well. Biden doesn't really mean it so, you know, we have to hope that that there and there's a lot of like voters are being asked to speculate what they you may or may not do and I have friends who are in the oil and gas industry who are like, well, I don't like Trump and I know that by might be bad for energy, but he probably won't be bad for energy. So I'm going to vote for Biden anyway, and I'm wearing my home not a plan t-shirt today because I mean it seems to me that that the Democratic party really wants to push for the green New Deal and stimulus spending to be specifically spends on wind and solar and Renewables at the expense of fossil fuels regardless of his explicit position on fracking. I'm curious. Do you agree with that with that stance? I I absolutely do and I think that there's some people who are saying well, I don't think Biden when do X are probably right, but I think the real issue is is Biden in the actually be would he actually be running the show and who actually birth His Environmental Policy because I think he'll sign off on whatever his team comes up with. And so if he's got, you know, Alexandria ocasio-cortez and you know, the next ingredient deal running energy policy then bide it is absolutely for Banning fracking. And so and and that's a question that really would have to ask it when you're looking at a Catholic so old who is clearly not totally with it. I mean if you watched older videos of Biden and you watch the videos of him now, I mean, there's definitely a mental acuity loss and you can see it is obvious. Yeah, you know, I don't want to sound mean because like he's not a young guy and this happens to people we get older we forget stuff. I mean I see it in myself and you know, I'm still young as as you know, we we measure these things so you can't fault them, but you have to when you're looking at him as a kid. That you have to say well who is really going to be running the show and and I don't think that it's going to be him. I agree and I think while we're on that topic, I wrote a post it's January and nineteen about retirement ages and then I can't remember the exact stats. Someone will have to fact-check my own writing because it's been eighteen months and I'm getting older so I can't remember all the stats but there was something like forty one or 50% of S&P 500 companies have a mandatory retirement age on their board and that the median age is something like seventy two. I'll post a link to it in the show notes that people can can confirm but it's amazing that like businesses know that mental acuity drops and yet like some of our justices are over seventy-five or at least were, you know, the people running for president at least, you know going into their second term Trump will be over 75 Biden is over seventy five Nancy Pelosi, although she does look amazing fog. Like however old she has I think she's like seventy eight and and maybe Schumer's or the Shady I mean for if I look like that at a t like she does look I don't love her. I don't even like her mom. She looks good for an eighty-year-old but like shouldn't they be retired in like going on cruises and catching the coronavirus or something? Like what are they doing? Still working at this point? What do you think about retirement age or politicians? Oh, I I think that it's actually something that should be considered. I really don't like putting a lot of like rules and regulations other than term limits, which I think are good because I'm a journalist. So term limits, I think like the idea that someone can just keep getting re-elected for twenty, you know thirty years. That's a serious threat I think to you know to come to our country and to our democracy and and and in general sometimes, you know, you vote these things like, oh judge. Do you want to like reaffirm that this judge anyone who's been there before Thursday? Like if I don't know anything, sometimes I'll just say you know what they time for someone just because you need turn over and so I think that we really do need to consider the age of people. There's something to be said for experience and wisdom and you know, like I've interviewed a lot of older people especially I did for my book. I interviewed a lot of older men, you know, some folks were in their eighties about they're using their experiences and these things are very valuable, but that doesn't mean that they should be at the Forefront of policy-making. So, you know, there's there's a use for I think that is demand knowledge gained through age, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they should be the ones having to you know, respond to things and be in the thick of negotiations. Now that being said Disney exclusive home all that much. I mean, we don't really know how much these people actually how much time do they actually spend working and how much is done by their staffs and they just like, you know, prop them up in front of the T camera occasionally and Save Okay speak right. I mean it is a great question and and I truly hope that coming out of this cuz I remember going into the 2016 election and I had a strong opinion that neither candidate was good. And I remember definitively standing in line to vote and I was like has anyone new declared that they're running that I could vote for today so that but I don't remember the nervousness around like oh my goodness what happens if my candidate and it goes on both sides doesn't win. I really hope that politics at some point comes back to I don't know where I mean, it should matter but it's the staff that ultimately run things but it seems like our two policies on both sides of parties are so different. Do you do you have any wage hope that in 2024 or 2022 will will like have a come-to-jesus with ourselves and say like let's stop putting 75 plus year old white men and eighty year old like leaders off. All the positions and let's like have a Changing of the Guard. You know, it's interesting because I was really like interested in the Democratic. I am not registered with any political party. So in Florida, you can't if you're not a member of a political party can't vote in the primary, so I didn't vote but I wasn't very interested in following what was going on with the you know, the Democratic primaries because I was like, wow they were real opportunity here because the clintons are gone that Obama's are gone. Like let's see where like who have they got who are the like who are the rock stars here, you know where the young people and it was like a is there like there was like no one there and I was I was like kind of disappointed like looking to see like, you know, what what's what's going on here, and I was just like very unimpressive people and you know early on I really did think that, was going to be the nominee. I was very surprised that she dropped out. I know, you know, I could see what happened. She wasn't she wasn't home. She wasn't impressive. I just assumed they were going to go with her simply because of the like the the you know, she was a woman the re the woman raised plastic. Yeah, and things went with them for VP. You mean right except that she's still got a lot of the same issues that she had she's not inspiring she turns people off. She laughs about everything which I think makes people feel upset because I think Felix not taking things seriously, whether that's why she laughs or not but you know, it's interesting because when I first started, you know going on T and doing me off the the first piece of advice I got was whatever you do. Don't laugh don't do that nervous laugh and it's a thing that a lot of women do and it makes them seem unserious and as soon as it's like someone said that to me and I noticed myself doing it. I started to really like stop myself from doing it and I just want to let you know when say it back to her. It just comes across has a dog. Is not taking it seriously when I don't know why she does it but to me it's a huge turnoff. I you know, the other thing that like again and I I am I am not registered with either party. I think people know that I am seeing right for sure fiscally, although the party that used to be right of me is now somehow left of me. I'm not sure how that happened. But so I to watch the Democratic National Convention with with interest and if I'm honest I thought the two most impressive candidates if if we were truly a merit-based political system where we're trying to get new ideas and fresh people who Inspire same thing. I thought Andrew Yang was pretty impressive and and but the one I would have picked for VP is Pete buttigieg, like really I was so turned off by him. I love that. Why why why was that? I mean I think cuz again, I mean like let's be clear and this is not a race or gender bias thing but clearly the Democrats pick the black woman and there were to her wage. See Abrams. Those are the two choices that they were going to go with that doesn't feel like Merit to me. So if you're going to go with like trying to break barriers, you know, the game are from Indiana who was an ex military veteran well-spoken seemed like a good choice, but you didn't you weren't inspired by him. That's great. Tell me tell me about this. Yeah off to me. He came across as a guy who like has always been planning his run for president. And so everything about his career was curated as such down to, you know, like home like even though like extended McKenzie and so I just saw this another one of these like kind of the guys is but like just like who wrote the guy wrote hillbilly elegy. Soon as I was like that guy wants to run for president was like I bet he runs for governor of Ohio and then he's going to run for president because it's like they're preparing for it. And that bothers me see I like Tulsi gabbard. I thought she was really willing to tell like it is too too and stood firm in her beliefs. So you know what? I I also didn't mind Tulsa. She is Hawaii if I remember correctly wage and so you know and again but and I do get especially in an election year like this. I don't know why they would have picked a California where you're as blue as you could possibly be when you need help in Pennsylvania or Michigan or wherever and and I know we're not talking about politics. But but I do I do finally but it comes it's so important in the context of everything in the same way that correct virus was and is you're in Florida and I remember we were talking about this on the last thing and I have lots of friends have just come back from Florida and the vibe in Florida is very young. For an edit seems to be attracting a lot of visitors because people are like I'm over my state. I want to go hang out in Florida. And then also it seems like a lot of people from New York hedge funds Etc are deeply considering the zero tax moved down there. What's your perspective of the virus being there? And then also, you know comparing the the media cuz you're you're very welcome ected with all that life. What's going on with Florida? So the first of all I live in North Florida, which is like a totally different state from South Florida. So to give you like North Florida is like basically life South Georgia because I say so I wouldn't say work quite like Panhandle. I mean cuz I'm right on the Atlantic coast in Jacksonville, but so not like Panhandle Panhandle is Morgan like, Mississippi Alabama like their it's it's different. I don't know how to explain like Panhandle Florida is different from just part of North Florida, but it's like we're busy. City and it's very I mean things are like very tense. I mean I would say in general like we're also a Navy town we have to naval air bases around here. So a lot of the population is somehow affiliated with military but in generally like it's a very Republican area, although we've had a Democratic mayor. In fact, I was once I'd like a community is a group thing and he came to talk and one was like why aren't you running as a republican? Like he said everything like that did this mostly republican-leaning group was interested? And so now we have a Republican mayor and I I don't really like him. I met a lot of people don't like him at all. So it's it's a little bit bit odd here, but it's I mean, I there's a lot of enthusiasm for Trump not to say there isn't enthusiasm fraudulently assigned game in my neighborhood has gotten really strong, but it's also a very very like fast growing area like you talk about hedge funds moving down to Miami dead. And you know Palm Beach and stuff like that. Obviously, that's where they're going to want to go. You know, the airport situation is better if you want to travel to New York and stuff, but st. Johns County which is right next to them where I live is just exploded. I mean the the amount of just building and growth there is insane and I'm sure it's due the fact that we've got no state income tax low property taxes. There's also something called the homesteading where the first home and that you buy can basically lock in your property tax rate. So and our property taxes are low compared to I mean, I've looked at moving to other places and it's like this is a great example of no state tax. But like if you're not working if you're a retiree paying $35 for $55,000 a year on property tax you can you can't run that very long. So it's not Texas is a great place to work and live in Florida is a great place to retire and live for that. Yeah the prom Texting is huge and especially if you're in the military or you have been military or military spouse there a lot of big brakes and get on property taxes utilities are a little bit higher than I think because the property taxes are so low that utilities tend to be a little higher but you know in general it's like I mean, yeah, you need your air conditioning but in the back at least here we can get it cold in the winter. It can freeze here. But you know, it's generally like there's only like two months out of the year and would you say that people in terms of their views of coronavirus the national media would certainly say everyone in Florida is being very glib about it. Is that your your take on it? I don't think so. I think that I mean I think that you know, there are people who take it very very seriously and then there's a lot of people who just I think go along with what everyone else is doing. You don't really know what month. The feel and private unless you you can talk to them and you feel comfortable talking to them this city that I live in had a mask mandate that is apparently supposed to expire tonight. Which it was supposed to expire in in September, but they were nuded. I don't think they're going to renew it. But I'm not totally sure about that but supposed to expire in general though. I say like wage I think unless you like go into like Costco or Trader Joe's which are really kind of militant like no one will ever give you a problem. Like there'll be a sign that says wear masks. They'll be people in the front standing there with like Bob's of Hancock Sizer and you can walk right into a store without wearing a mask and you will smile and greet you and never say a word. So it's more like a y to do this. Please follow the rules for not going to give you any problems off and I've never had I've never seen anybody ever harassed by another person or an employee or anything for not wearing masks people do not wear masks outside. It's also log Hot and muggy still like I have so it's I think you know, it's it's I think people T it seriously in the fact that like there's a lot of messaging about it, but people go out to eat in restaurants. Now it flop you can see I'm not sure that restaurants generally have been philosophy NC but like there there are people that there's no restrictions that govern what it is people anymore Choice. Yeah. Yeah and and they're a lot of people who are going on. I mean, I'm out to eat on Sunday and it wasn't packed but it was there were a good number of people now like I'm saying normal number of people for like a Sunday night after a football game, so I don't know how this would work. But before we pivots your book cuz we have a lot to talk about with Saudi Arabia, but do you think the country is too busy to govern and I just think about the local differences and I have this Meme and my I don't know how to make memes cuz I'm too old, but if I could make a meme it would basically be like a little blue guy who lived. New York in California who are running away from the state because their taxes are going high and they're going to Arizona and Colorado to places I love and when I one of which I live in and one of which I own in Iraq and then Florida, but then all the red people start like each inching their way to the to the border and and then they flee and you basically have this Mass migration. Ultimately Republicans are going to end up living in New York when they drop the taxes and try and bring bring back productive people and all the Democrats have just trashed states with policies and voting in proposition 50 billion are now in the states that used to be so good. And now they don't understand why everyone's leaving in the problem like and that's to me might have running around in my head. So that's true too big to govern. Well, I think that there's a point to our Federalist system and that's that people, you know, it's very community-based and what works in for, you know, Manhattan birth. Ever is not what's going to work for Florida or South Dakota or or you know, Colorado or Wyoming. I mean if I if I could live anywhere right now, I probably live in Wyoming probably live in Laramie, Wyoming which is like one of my favorite places on Earth and you know, like if I had lived in probably a DeCamp for Wyoming a while ago and but you know, even you know, and you asked me about you know, who do I think could could come out and in 2024 and I think that Governor Christie gnome is clearly gotten a national Spotlight and there are a lot of people out there who really see South Dakota as a model for you know, how they dealt with these challenges in a way that was right for their state and I I wouldn't be surprised if you see a lot of growth heading to that statement if you look at the economies of I know they're like red States vs Blue States. I don't think it's red State versus Russia. I think it's it should be more in terms of how different states dealt with wage. Anomic lockdowns employed had an extremely brief one and the Florida economy compared to other economies is much much much better. And so I think South Dakota you'll see is the same and and I wouldn't be surprised if you see people like, you know, if I would consider moving there if I didn't like the way Florida was going and you know, there are a lot of reasons to go there and I think people will just try I wouldn't be surprised our country where it's not that hard to pick up and move especially now with all this work from home business. You you don't like that your kids aren't in school. You don't like that you you know can't go out to eat. Well, you can remove to a state wage ten, you know State maybe like South Dakota or you know or Florida or or whatnot and and there's also more to Florida than just Miami. I get an Tampa. There's a lot of very nice places out there that you know are are less populous basically, so so let's let's pivot a little you're you're a very bright cookie. And the first time I I came across you actually it was dead. Before Judas I was on Bloomberg and we were talking about the sight of Saudi aramco IPO and a secret little story that I doubt. I have never shared before but thought I was chatting with with Alex and we've been talking about larger Shale issues. Clearly. I'm a US Shale guy and Alec Steele brilliant really great at what she does and she said well, hey if you're in New York, why did she come on and I was like, well cool. I think I'm going to be there like first week in November. She said, well, what do you know about Saudi? Aramco and I was like nothing right? I didn't say this but in my head I go nothing right now, but they have a 656 page IPO and I can read it. So by the end of three days I had read the entire i p. Oh, wow. I don't even think I read em, and I learned so many fascinating things so that when I went on for my 3 minutes, which is, you know, you you literally prepare for like all these questions and then the questions they asked Are really interesting but like you have like literally 45 seconds. And so the reason I bring that up is because they were asking you your view from the day before and they showed a tape of what you had said as the lead into me and my friend that became my friend then Marcus a know who was also on with me at the same time and he and I ended up not surprisingly talking for like an hour and half by the free coffee they have in the Bloomberg thing, which was awesome. I think I think that's one of the things I miss the most about not playing I'm going to like it's like a Bloomberg office like all the snacks. I'll like go, you know, three coffee the coffee bar. I'll like snag, you know, like a whole bunch of you know, granola bars for later and stuff. Oh Mom. And and so then I that I mean Mark who's like an extreme guy? I've had him on the podcast a couple of times but he's so smart and at the time it was November 2019 and he was like man, there's so much oil. I'm so bearish and I was dead. Bullish oil because I was like, well you are sales going to decline to the world is going to be and he's talking about tankers and moving and I said, wow that was fascinated and that night was the night that I ended up at a Vicki Holub Thursday the financial times sort of like with the CEO. Wow, and so it's like a really good day for me. I threw in a Massage Envy on the walk between a and b and then Vicki was standing at the front and people always ask like, how did they get to know me that? Well, she was standing alone getting ready to speak and I went straight up to her and I was like, you don't know me but I want you to know I'm a huge fan and I do this little thing called hot chick of the day. There's no real have ever heard of it. She's like I've heard of you and so now I even love her more but I will the reason I tell that story is you set it up. So I followed what you wrote down. And then after we were on the the seminar because you actually know a lot more than I do about Saudi. Aramco. I just read the IPO you wrote Saudi Inc, which I'm going to tell you. I mean this would like this is a Phenom. Will read like it's it's it's true. It's like cuz what I love about it is you've done it in a story way that that even though it's like real characters the character developing a sense of of the Kings and how they're dealing with their brothers and how they're negotiating and then like the one of the ones that I wanted to start here was in nineteen seventy-three with the Embargo that they were negotiating the price from like three dollars a barrel and the salad the Saudis maybe wanted to push it to 6 and they had OPEC and then they were going to embargo the us to like show their pricing power and ultimately Thursday traded up to $15 a barrel and I think so many people forgot about how influential that moment in geopolitics and political time of taking the US influence out of Saudi aramco ultimately and then the OPEC putting its grip on the world economy, which was so taken with oil. I wanted you to talk about that as a start. Yeah. I I love that that dog. Um that chapter chapter drove me a little bit crazy because there is so much going into it, but it it it took me a while. I think to really understand what was going on in this embargo off play because there's been so much assumption. I think almost like this information and finally, I think I figured out where it comes from and and it's this idea that you know, the Saudis heated is Jill therefore they wanted to embargo the Allies Israel and the United States was supplying weapons Israel and this that new thing and everything. I've learned about Saudi Arabia and present. This was all the way back to school as an undergraduate writing my you know, undergraduate thesis and I came across this document. It was like within nineteen Forty-Eight the Americans right to say to the master and stuttering like, you know, we think Israel thing is it probably going to happen and they're going to declare a state like what's sad you are you going to do and the Bastards like he talks to the King and King essentially says to him. We're not really dead. Care if the Jews declare independence, as long as they don't try to expand their territory into Saudi Arabia and and as long as and by the way America, you're going to keep developing and selling oil and making us money. Right? Like I was like, that's all they really care about is money. They they don't really care about this is real thing. I was like well, so how does that play out in this story? Because it doesn't really fit with Narrative of it was all that Israel and when I looked into it or you know in in more detail and I found out that it coincided exactly with this impact push to raise prices wage and that it was essentially, you know that and you're dealing with a lot of different players are you don't sound is really the Iranians you done at the Iraqis eighties and the Saudis are basically the the Saudis and most important players at this point. And so it's it's a Kia Vonnie and jump seat in music are who are doing the negotiations for OPEC with these companies and that's how we used to work because log The oil-producing countries whether or not they control their oil they were basically just selling all their oil to the big companies. Who were that who had the marketing Outlets to sell it. They were else they would go she ate a price and it's you know, the seventies and the Saudis realize that they finally have the upper hand in terms of wage in terms of the United States because the United States can no longer increase its oil production to accommodate growing demand they have to now import and that gives them the power to be didn't have a 1967 for example, and they know that but Zaki yamani and and also the king of Saudi Arabia the time we're very concerned they always working out for the long term but bigger picture and they knew that they needed to have a price of of oil that was good for them. But there wasn't too high because if you go too high then demand starts to drop off and they were real. Concerned about this particularly in long long and that's why you my name is like we want to you know, double the price increasing it from like $2 to like 4. I mean, it seems like crazy nowadays. There's a z these companies were like, well you really can't do that. We have to go and talk to our government and and they were negotiate negotiate finally, you know the size of like look, No, yes, or no. Like we're not going to just keep doing this like yes or no. Give us your and they're like we can't we just can't we got to go back to talk to the government's these countries and and they're like five negotiations are over and there's this scene where they actually end up in the hotel room late at night. The the the two guys who are doing the negotiations for the American British companies involved in that hotel room of documenting. I think he was staying at the Intercontinental Indiana and and he's like trying to like Steve the most like appeals an apple or he orders his boss. He squeezes the line just got body calls the Kuwaiti oil Minister who comes in his room in his pajamas and they're like talking some finally like in their life and and the oil company guys are like, well what what's going to happen and money is like listen to the radio tomorrow and that's when they went they left. They went to their Arab OPEC meeting at the club. In Baghdad or create a Camry which one and they announce this embargo and I've met that and I was like, you know what they kept saying, we're not going to do this or not going to do this and then they did it. Why did they do it? They did it because it is it convenient cover for basically economic Warfare. They were like, we have the power to raise the price unilaterally but that looks like basically like economic Warfare. So they use this at least four or Saudis. It's an excuse. This embargo is an excuse as a way to raise your price and it went up to high and yeah, that's what I went from fifteen to eighteen cuz and that was what caused all the panic in the US and the rationing and I mean, would you also yeah. Well then a bigger squash. Okay. So then so this is see my says we're doing this embargo. Well, you got us, okay, but Americans are running their own country. So you're going to say to the CEO of an American Oil Company ryoko, you are not allowed to sell oil to America not allowed to ship it literally ship it now dead. And so the guy who's ahead of America the time he basically is like well, how is this going to work? Anybody says you're going to do it. And here's the interesting thing. He just did it and that's what like a Sound of Music. Why did he just do it? All in other parts of this relationship or we've got always push back on what the same thing? Like? Well, we can't really do this. This is a really good idea. You might want to think about this. We don't know he's just like went and did it and he did it. So well, he like over-compensated. And how long is it was Frank jungers? And so he's actually he's still alive. So I called them up and I got an interview with him and I asked him about it and he continues to be the same answer it which was that like that's what the king wanted as we did. But the truth is that he never pushed back and so I and and there was he there was a lot of like a shady stuff going on with this guy. In fact, I talked to a guy Tim Barger who is the son of a former CEO at, since he's ten minutes since passed away actually passed. The way before it was history. I remember in his son also worked there too. Right he when he played a pretty prominent role in the first half of the book Tom Barger. That's the father. So I talked to his son who who grew up in in in in a funny story. Tim's sister is actually a fairly prominent. I think hedge fund owner and and who who may and a lot of a lot of oil stuff. She was profiled in the Wall Street Journal at one point. I just recognize the last name and also because of his stories. He tells a story about her dog Saudi Arabia, but home, so he said that actually youngest is younger saying gets fired shortly thereafter, and he said that they say that he was fired because he, you know, did this Barbara thing but really he was involved like maybe Shady malfeasance business and they fired him for that but so it's kind of interesting that like I put I mean, I would really like if you want to know who to blame for this I would blame junkers because he never thought Pushed back. Well, and and so so what I found I found a lot and so fact is Stranger Than Fiction number one and and the way that you talk about the story and I hope listeners can appreciate like the book is written as though it could be fictional but you know, it's real and so you kind of get to know the characters and you see you see the challenges the family and and I can't remember it was in the sixties when the two sons took over and the one guy was running it and the other guy was sort of not and like he kind of like deposed his brother, but he couldn't fight with them. I mean there's just so much interesting stuff in the book. But the thing that I found really interesting was the overlay to that was the Saudis were producing so much is the oil that they thought that they were going to have to start water flooding and that ultimately the oil price didn't support that and so if you had a view that you could get three versus 6. And obviously we didn't know where the world would go. I mean I wouldn't blame jungers because they probably all were saying well oils three if oil were fifteen. Our companies are five times more valuable. My stock is 5 times more valuable and the only way I can create this problem is through a geopolitical machination and the Saudis actually wanted to shut down production because they had some challenges with the reservoirs. Can you talk more about that? Absolutely and this actually didn't come out until there were Senate hearings on it Senate and House hearings on this issue and see it didn't come out until then and they brought this guy in they got a petroleum engineer from aramco to come and maybe not for micro from I think so Cal which was a one-room post parent companies to come and talk about this and he says that there are actually serious issues that the Saudis were over I mean not Saturday. Sorry that aramco was over producing its fields and yeah, they were going to need to start doing this wonderful. And so they really did they needed both to to to restrict production both for the help of the fields at that point. But also in order to do all of this this work that would then enable them to get the pressure up and so it was a very like fortuitous time to have this, you know, this this production of these production Cuts basically to have this embargo wage and you know, I don't even know so much that the Saudis like engineered this geopolitical that because this was something that a lot of the that like Egypt and and these other Arab countries have been pushing for they've pushing for OPEC to do an embargo like they prefer in nineteen sixty-seven when OPEC had no power so they've been pushing for it for a while and it it happened to coincide like the the 1973 arab-israeli War happened to coincide very well with these negotiations. And so I think they latched onto it as like a cover for or moved they had do and you can see home. Cuz later like in December when they go to sit down and OPEC goes to negotiate a price. They're negotiating now with each other. Forget the oil companies. You don't get a say now. This is just OPEC with within itself wage and they're negotiating. I like okay, we got it actually set the price. We can't just let you know let it be with the market ones cuz that's crazy and his hobbies are pushing for lower prices and the Iranians are like no you want the home price in in the end the Saudis got them down a little but they, you know still too high the kingdom want that high. They couldn't reach the king. They managed to reach the like the Crown Prince who was basically like yeah. Okay, that's fine kind of just okay to it. And and then the Iranians went announced it on T. But and and the Saudis were not happy about that wage. And so it ended up being a bit higher than the Saudis wanted but not nearly as high as it Ronnie inside wanted. And that's basically where like how and that's basically what OPEC then became well and never let a good crisis go to waste right and and and and I again, well, we're going to talk about 2020 in the rushing in the Saudis cuz obviously there's a tie but again, you might not have created a crisis but once a crisis presents itself, like it's sort of like what it's a little different but I've learned from horror movies if someone breaks into your house and you like stab them they're going to come back and get you unless you get them when they're down and so like never let the crisis go to wage going to Pivot to 2020. But before we get there Matthew Simmons wrote a book and I remember it was my first introduction to Saudi Fields the whole concept Twilight in the desert was what it was called. It was given every employee in Anadarko by Jim Hackett who was my favorite CEO notwithstanding what happened with Altamesa? He's a great spiritual great leader. I mean he was dead. Able to work for always loved them but he gave it Matthew Simmons talk to us. I read it and I was like, wow, this is crazy like oil is going through the roof that really set. I mean I would say until your book that Ross is set the way the world viewed Saudi Arabia's oil fields, and it was like, they're all on water flood. They're all going to water out. Like we're going to have this massive issue. We need to push American oil and then we found the Bakken give me your feedback on the Matthew Simmons viewbook Etc. So I read it was one of the books that I read. I think I read it even before I started off, right so young one of the interesting things to my background is in Academia. I'm a historian and the full first part of the book is actually comes directly from my education research Administration was a lot more focused on never letting his dissertation. Go to go to waste. I mean if you can put it in a book you got a hundred and fifty pages in there. Well, it's dead. Testing because yeah, I don't let a good a good character go to waste. I just I couldn't let see Stripling Snodgrass go. He was just too too strange and bizarre over person that I am discovered. But anyway, so so, you know, the distribution was much more academic obviously, but that's really weird. Like the Genesis of the book comes and one of the things that I realized were writing. It was that the Americans kept under estimating the Saudis constantly. They were always under estimating that they thought that they didn't know what they were doing that they were like, you know bombs in the desert or something like that and they're they were at a serious disadvantage especially in the nineteen forties and the 1950s, but the Saudis knew what advantages they had and they used them very well and they were always extremely good at negotiation and I think that that but that mindset that like under estimating them up at the Saudis don't know what they're doing. I think that that dog persisted into Simmons's book and you know, he makes a very strong and convincing argument and I can understand why a lot of people believed it it also I I think personally I think his book helped this this idea of peak oil not what we talked about today is V coil that speak with Adam and I'm talking about like the month club curb the the peak oil supply and you know, and so he played into that I wouldn't be surprised if his book actually help push up oil prices even more because it helped, you know create this idea that like well Saudi Arabia is running out of oil then you know, everyone else is too and so I think that that perpetuated isn't actually helped them the price of oil but it's interesting so Ali on that you me who I had have had the occasion to meet and speak with and but he wrote in his memoirs Rude about cement this book. He actually wrote about it and that they disagreed with him that they felt that he didn't have all the information and I think there was also a big this idea that she cuz aramco was so secretive and they didn't ever share any information about anything that therefore they must be hiding something and I think that that doesn't that suck you into view say say you were working for aramco. Okay. Aramco you have to understand is basically at least especially that time basically like an American company that happen to be run by guys who have Saudi passports. I mean, these guys are all trained in America. Okay, speak English perfectly. The company is run in English. It's just go there. You're like, it looks like you're in a California suburb. I mean this is they Pride themselves on basically saying our management structure is like Exxon, and so I think people didn't dog. Understand that and then have this idea that okay. There are private company. They basically have free reign within Saudi Arabia as long as they Supply the country with all the oil and electricity and gas that it that wants they do whatever they want like their company. They run their company how they want. Why would they ever share any information with anybody? So if you've got to think about it from their perspectives, they're like, why should we care that people think we're running out of oil we know we're not running out of oil. Why would we bother proving it to them? When all they're doing is just jacking up the price War for us. So, so if you think about you have to like think about it from their perspective, they're not stupid. So I think that they said they didn't engage and they they have never shared any information that more than I think is absolutely necessary. And so but I think that people saw that as a tacit as a table That admission that it was this way as opposed to Saudis where they're sitting they're they're basically sitting there in sconsin this like great amazing place and they're like looking on. Why why why bother why should we bother with this? We know we're going to keep breaking in the money. All we have to do is make sure we make enough money for the king and you know, that's that's that and keep doing our thing off and that's that's why I think that the book is so important is for people who work in industry and and you know, I I would I don't want to use criticize cuz I think it's maybe too heavy a phrase but I think that people in our industry who get in conversations with their peers who can't explain like a friend of mine yesterday texted me and he said it was some article and like popular mechanic that said solar panels are now cheaper than and all forms of energy and I went off on like a night he and I turns out he was baiting me but but I went off on like a 19 line like here this here Thursday. If you're using solar you have to have backup and you don't have the batteries, you need a natural gas and they never include that cost and tended it. And and and so but the book is so interesting cuz it lays out the whole historical context which leads to their IPO in 2019 and December and they'd been thinking about it. They wanted to have the world's biggest valuation that that even though they have been notoriously private home. They had to disclose to meet guidance to disclose what their numbers were. And so what I started looking at them having the Matthew Simmons, everything is a trouble problem. They're going to pull out and to call you McNaughton and people can debate observe audits versus not but they go in they do a pretty thorough job. It's a trillion-dollar company and they show that they have a 53-year Reserve Life index of oil producing a ten million barrels a day now, obviously, this is the the lifeblood and people talk about the societal cost and your book dog. Really good job about talking about scholarships and sending Saudis to America and thinking about how they Revitalize the economy and that at least as I interpreted. It's they take the oil revenue and try and turn it into something that like, you know, get the flywheel going and I'm curious how you think the Saudis given covet given Global demand given the change of the green policy. How did they view their 53-year Reserve Life index at ten million barrels a day Visa Vie peak oil demand. I think that the Saudis are very skeptical of these peak oil demand, you know estimations that they look at BP and they're thinking they're looking at you know, BP's based them world's oil Outlook and they're saying BP is saying this because this is what the government and the company has to say or what Europe wants to hear and this outage there thinking that yes demand. There may be some limitations to demand but they are looking for a small building. Primarily Europe. I'm sorry. The Saudis were looking primarily Asia. That's where their ship most of their crude oil and they're seeing first of all, I think I think there's the the the Navy Outlook is still very strong and maybe writes about how long he he's the one who really turned the company from we produce oil and Saudi Arabia to we are Global Energy company, and he went to China Club. Like the early nineties and he went to China airport and there was a row he describes there's a road like a single-lane road going to the airport and most people were on bicycles and he said who is going to buy our well in China. These people are all riding bicycles. And that's when they he's like we want to sell to China but we need to put this on hold we're going to sell to like South Korea instead of their first Asian, you know, the first deal in Asia was in South Korea and not China but I think that's they're still looking at it. They're still looking up there like, okay, when is the net you know, how these are developing nations who are coming out of poverty. So they're looking to India and they're saying, you know, we see oil demand rising and India next thing they're going to be doing is in Africa. So I think they're still seeing that there's a lot of global development yet to happen wage and that the alternatives to fossil fuels are still too expensive for these people and I know you know, everyone's like solar panels are so cheap both great. What are you going to do with a order or so long? All in the mail and what are you going to do with it? It's not going to run your car. So I'm going to you know, get you to the supermarket. And so I think they also see a lot of huge markets for products and Plastics. And and so this is this is where they're going and yet at the same time. They do see that this is finite, you know, these are I have a lot of skepticism when it comes to Mohammed bin Salman, but if we're kind of taking him more out of the picture and we're looking at kind of the the whole of the Saudi monarchs. They have always looked at the big picture and even you know, how that someone if he becomes king he could be king in he could be king in those fifty years as he's like, he's he's in his thirties if I remember say yes. Yeah. Yeah, he's young. He's young and you know unless he died of a heart attack. I mean, these guys are notoriously long-lived, you know, so he did the no booze and the in the relatively Easy Mac officially know we all know that King fahd at the very the Kings so King fahd had a stroke actually and thought he was like officially came for ten years that he was totally incapacitated. But he was he lived a large lifestyle at least before he officially became king the brother that took okay. For him Abdullah was much more of like on the straight and narrow and it seemed with King Faisal he and it's when you talk about the Subaru showing Red King Saud and King Faisal. He was like gluttonous wanted everything came Faisal was like very austere like, you know had a single bed and like was super seated totally visualized the characters in the way you wrote about thought. It was like it was almost like this Aladdin like cartoon where the big brother wanted the fun and didn't want to fight and then the other guy was like in the Federal Reserve and yeah, it was it was great job. He was great. Yeah, I say enough about oh I loved yeah, that's that's one of the things that made it so much fun with the characters and like like how these people were real characters and dialogue. That's the book is actually like real dialectic indirectly. They're all direct quotes taken from documents where I think they used to write a lot more in the state department in those days where they would actually log Right like and I said that such as to him and he said this is such back and like now they're just like, you know had conversation decided this war. We're we're on the subject MBS and I think I'd be remiss I don't really want to talk about the khashoggi thing cuz I think that that's just it's just doesn't really get us anywhere but my favorite MBS moment if I had one was off and Donald Trump and he were sitting in the Oval Office and Donald Trump was explaining the military equipment that you buy and he hands him back as the Whiteboard thing with like Sticky's from like literally from your kids and he's pointing to what they're buying. He's like spending all this money in our country life and MBs is the best his face is the best. He's like, I know you're a billion and stuff but I am like like more than and what we thought You one of the greatest clips of all time. Oh, yeah. I thought that that to me like defined the relationship to me. This is how I saw I see it. So I was like, you know, he comes in he thinks like home and he comes in he thinks he's like in the Oval Office and everything and Southern and he's going to get you know, and this is going to this is huge for NDS. You have to understand that like to the Saudis the relationship with America is legitimacy like the Saudi monarchy thinks that the most important of foreign policy move that America has ever made was wage and FDR net with it and sewed on the great Bitter Lake during World War Two. They think the dad is like the pivotal moment in American foreign policy ever like that is so that that is like the most important idea to them because it gives them so much legitimacy. If they knew that like that event would never have even been recorded had not been for this month. One guy who happened to write like a tiny book about it. Like no one would ever know about it in America. So for Envy has like coming to the Oval Office was a huge like legitimacy thing off there. He's like and you're spending all this one and he's like this and he could see us as saying like this is not going the way that I thought it was going to go. It was like to me like that. That was all like wow how many people have had meetings with Donald Trump and then like left and were like that meeting did not go anything like I thought it was going to probably everyone but it's it's kind of Donald Trump thought was talking with someone about it yesterday. Is that like he's so sometimes and mostly unlikeable by the things he does and I think a lot of people hate him, but if you were in a room with him for like 30 minutes, I bet you would leave being like, you know, he's actually like a pretty good guy like yeah, you know, and and I don't know if people have spend time with like big athletes or big politicians wage. Like they are by there if you spend time with Kanye West Kanye West is not super interested in hearing about what's going on in your life. And his Aura is so impressive cuz of was done that you basically spend the whole time listening to him tell stories kind of like when he was on Joe Rogan and didn't say anything for three hours. But if you were in that room with him, you're just like wow, but it's so different when you become the leader of the Free World where now all of a sudden you're supposed to have like the the most presidential moment. I thought Trump had in his entire presidency was when he was doing it from the medical center that tweet he sent out for like five minutes where he thanked everyone for the well wishes and he's feeling better and he's you know staying on top of it and like he had this sort of humility yet Donald Trump notice that was like if he could have harness that for the last four years there wouldn't be anywhere near the level but the MBS moment was definitely the moment. That was like wow. Yeah, and I think I mean, I'm very like a dog Very skeptical with the way the MBs is dealing with aramco because I think that aramco has always been this like incredible Jewel and it's like it's it's done incredible things for Saturday would be its Westside Arabia is Saudi Arabia and not like Iran or Iraq. I think I mean not you know, like from a fiscal perspective in in many senses and because they changed the oil men run things and the oil men and and these guys are and like, okay when the IPO perspective came out and everyone's like Ahmad Nasser makes nothing. They were like huge to CEO of the largest oil company in the world and he like his salary is nothing like these other CEOs and it was like people were stunned and I was like, it's a different like my name say, I don't know how to explain it. It's not like he doesn't have a lot of perks. I mean, you know, but you know it's and and it's not like they don't make money other ways and things like that and some of them go on to become government ministers wage. And such but it's there's a sense that like they are stewards of this Incredible Gift right and that it's their responsibility to to fax to erode it with an eye towards like fifty years in the future. And so like when aramco makes its its large, you know plans for the future. It's planning for the really like long long range and I thought that the way that this IPO was done is really hampered that and in particular like you can see it now in this period of low oil prices that they are basically forced to be so committed to paying out dividends to funding the Saudi state, which also by the way takes not just the regular dividend but gets extraordinary dividend which is basically whatever they want which ends up being about sixty 50% of their budget. That's how it's it's ended up being and so they're they're scaling back on all of these things that they want to do. They want to describe to chemicals thing. That's basically completely dead. Now, yeah, and and I I wonder you know, I wonder if in you know twenty thirty years we'll look back on it will see the effect of this. It's both the IPO change and the covid-19. Well, Russia, we can flood the oil Market that's their their last-ditch kind of power play. So so I have one more question about Saudi then I want to talk about Iran and then we're going to close it up. So the last question is so when I read the IPO similar to what you just said at ten million barrels a day, they have a 53-year reserve life if they increase production actual production to thirteen million barrels a day. That's 30% above the 53 drops 238 roughly Exxon is a 17-year Reserve Life index. And so if it was a pure capitalist American company, it would have the goal of tripling production because it would want to bring the Reserve Life down when you overlay that with how Europe feels about crude, you know, potentially we have to move to nuclear. Like what is the window for oil that Saudi can meet all of its objectives if it were simply to Triple oil production job. So I'm curious how you think about that because when I saw like again, I was never in the camp that Saudi in 2014 was trying to crush the American Shale Linda South, we didn't know what it was like the Permian was barely started barking and eagleford were quite frankly irrelevant to Saudi. I think it was the US government through the clintons who wanted to sanction Russia because their Invasion and Crimea there in a whole bunch of economic sanctions, and that oil and gas was one of the huge exports of Russia that brought in currency and so very crushing hundred thousand Royal. It was the way the clintons and the Democrat Administration could hamper Russia as part of the Crimean punishment, which then overlaid in 2016 when Hillary miraculously didn't become president and there was talk of the Russians meddling. So to me I draw a line between it and I also draw a line that the Russians have continued to push and fund anti-fracking off. And emotions and and inertia in the US because they produce 34% of the gas that goes to Europe. So if you crush America's hundred b c f a day by Banning fracking which to 67% of all natural gas in this country requires fracking boom all of a sudden there's this Mass deficit and Russia gets five six seven dollars an mcf gas and they control the gas market so I see them related. Oh, I'm so so in terms of the Russia, I think that I think that both I think definitely Russia is without a doubt rooting for Biden because they they would like to see America's gas oil and gas industry curved anything. Oh, absolutely this whole idea that based on how want Trump seems to me ridiculous, you know, and and I said that I think that Savage I should also want they should also want Administration the US that will put more restrictions on American oil production, although people argue and they say, oh it's not so important to Saturday. It actually is going to study. I think the real reason that that the market crash, you know from the end of you know that OPEC made that decision in 2014. It wasn't really a decision. It was basically now you me saying Saudi Arabia Navy's experience in this I think was defined very much by this time when he was CEO of aramco and during the eighties and Hamas and then later his from Nazareth, but mostly documented who was the oil minister of Saudi Arabia Imani was a really really good negotiator. He was not very good at reading home and he had this idea that Saudi Arabia was going to play the swing producer for open. So OPEC would basically keep you know other countries could all keep their quotas and Saturday. We was going to swing low in order to get the bulb or what happened. So do you believe that down to two million barrels a day of production aramco is suffering. They laid off a lot of people they had to mothball their facilities until basically the Gulf War came around and some your mom. Could you please wrap up production a lot so that you can help the Americans defeat Saddam Hussein and I think ninety me was very much like his experience was very much defined by this idea that Saudi Arabia cannot be the swing producer when it comes to swing Angolo use happy to increase production when there wasn't you know enough but he did not want this because he saw it it did to the company and so and he was also defined by this time when they tried to make a deal with Russia and Russia's said, yes, and they went along with it and then immediately Russia turned around and stabbed in the back. So he had no trust from Russia at all. And in you know 28th 2014. He saw you know production in the US was Rising prices were starting to come down just a little bit and it was so much pressure, but nobody wanted to cut they all wanted Saudi to cut it. He's like, we're not doing it and I remember I mean, this is really where the whole Genesis the book came out was. I remember being on an airplane. I was going to, New Jersey Chuck for Thanksgiving and I was like, it's not like in a great place in my career per se and I was trying to kind of think about like what maybe I wanted to do with myself next and and I remember watching like CNBC on the airplane and they were talking about and OPEC was meeting that it was a day before Thanksgiving and they were like OPEC, you know refuses to commit to quarters and if she goes I was like and they're showing, you know Saturday. I'm like, wow, I'm like, you know what the Saudis did this because they know that they're going to withstand this way better than anybody else because they are the lowest cost money. But this is a move and they want cause them pain. They're they're okay with with low prices. Now, the question of course is like how long the Saudi blast and everyone's like, oh they're going to give in they're going to give in and I kept think there needs to give him yet. They're not going to give in yet. They've got, you know, like eight hundred billion dollars in foreign currency reserves. Like they they can hold out for a while here. And and I do think I think God Getting Russia in was a big deal. And I don't think and definitely switching up leadership and bringing in hot all Folly. He was extremely proactive when it came to negotiate with them. I'm not sure that ABS is really as strong of a personality when it comes to that and you could see I think if Russia wasn't motivated right now to off the curb production that they'd be in a difficult situation. I think that this whole Corona thing is basically like it's basically put the Saudi Russia what we were growing Saudi Russia issue on hold for a little bit, right? But it's it's common March well in this and we talked about this on the panel, but March 6th was so important because the Russians said everyone be themselves and I I mean, I'm on record I was bullish oil because OPEC was constraining there were sanctions on Iran there were sanctions on all these years. Says and the US was going to decline cuz we were running out of inventory. So all else being equal that was going to be bullish for oil prices, which was good Russia walking from the table and then Saudi responding the way they did now all these oil bulls that are talking about. Oh, yeah Opex back together to me is totally missing the point of what happened in March and the second Saudi feels any level of threat, you know, they're just going to crush whatever they whatever they want to do. Did you not do not find that in 2016. I'm in three weeks after Trump won. The election was when the Saudis cup action. So they we ask how long did they last they last that and that's why I sort of go that the USA Department had something to do with it because they were applying pressure to Russia who then wanted Hillary not to win even though Trump was going to be a wild card and then three weeks after the US election was when they cut and that was when prices started coming back. Yeah. I think I think I wouldn't be surprised if that was a month. To pushing Russia Russia's position because there was OPEC I was at that meeting and it was clear that had Russia not committed. OPEC would not have been able to agree. So they they portrayed as OPEC decided this and then we called up our friend Russia and they would put together to make the Yelp app was deadlocked. They called up Russia. Russia was like, okay. Well commit this in fact was like, okay now now that Russia has done it. I guess we'll all great but there was a been no agreement without Russia Russia had not if they version come in there would not have would not be even an open agreement. OPEC would have be collapsed. So let's talk about Iran and then and then we'll close so the USS had sanctions on a ram and at least as I understand sanctions, the intent is to bring about change at which point you will take the sanctions off because you have accomplished what you want. So for example, if you are fighting with your spouse they say go home. In the basement until your behavior changes at which point you're then allowed not to sleep in the basement Iran, we seem to be talking as though that four million barrels a day which they produce 2 million which is the internal need and they smuggle and we can talk about that but it seems like we always forget that the the goal of the sanctions at least to me is to incite regime change. It feels like we're very close to regime change at which point Iran then re-enters the the global world. That is the neophytes non geopolitical experts view of the situation. You are the experts. I'm curious where you go come on. The Iran part of the problem is that we don't really know what the goal is. I think that there were definitely some people in the administration or people who are not ministration but back sanctions whose goal is regime change that that was the ultimate goal is to pressure them so much economically that they raining people rise up and overthrow their what is actually dead. Leave their democratically elected government with a constitution that they themselves voted for back in the seventies. So I think this is a lot it's not Iran is dead. People say it's a theocracy. It's sort of its sort of democratic. I teach actually teach whole class about Iran and my favorite thing is doing the Iranian Civics lecture because explaining like based on their constitution how their governments actually supposed to work because if you think our government is convoluted, you know, how that can read all the tree branches and a triangle their government. It's like a team lead and like an overlay triangle. It's it's it's crazy but it technically is a government that they established themselves. And so I think I like I think John Bolton wanted regime change the administration at least Pompeo is always saying, you know until they behave like a normal country. Well, this is also dead. Do they mean stop being at stopped, you know sending their their militias out to interfere and like the government of Iraq are they talking about that? They tell me that terrorism they are talking about the nuclear bomb like they're not there aren't necessarily specific benchmarks. So I think I don't think that the Trump Administration is trying to create regime change. I don't think they they want to do regime change. I don't think I want to do I think if it happened to happen, they would support it. Although there's a big question of like who would be the new government and I don't think that that this m EK group. They're basically like a long lists. Who are kind of all so crazy like a crazy cult but also like from the palavi, so that's that's not going to fly. No one no one thinks that they're going to go back to the shop as a government. So so I mean in some cases, I think that if President Trump wins re-election, I think his goal is to do a new package deal and that deal could look a lot like the jcpoa. I wouldn't be surprised if it looked kind of similar to see which is original Iran nuclear deal and I thought okay he walked from one. Mm. Yeah, and I would and and I don't think it was a particularly good deal to begin with. I haven't read the whole thing, but I read parts of it was very very long deal. So I but I think I think Trump's goal is to push them into a state where they're they're realized that they need to renegotiate and and do it with the US and I don't think Trump cares about the U and all dead. He'll be like you I think you should sign on to this but I don't think he's going to do it in like a p 5 + 1 State that's not the same as until that's a different objective from Iran until Iran behaves like a normal Nation from regime change. I don't think sanctions work to create regime change. They can work in conjunction with other things as well. We haven't seen them work to create regime change how it works yet that the best thing they have is if Trump gets another Iranians are basically waiting it out to see if Mom s Trump gets booted out of office and then they get someone who hates trumps policy so much that they'll go full-on reverse. That's what they're hoping for if Trump wins, they're in a different situation, but I think they'll be much more open to negotiation. That being said it's like I talked to someone actually about how these sanctions are administered and it's like insane the way they wage. To go after these people it's like but they can get a lot of money out of it like the amount of money that they have actually ended up collecting from companies that have violated the sanctions as like it's actually walk quite a bit of money. They just sanctioned a tanker company about trying to export the million barrels or something like it is it is crazy. So so tell people what you're doing you are you are the smart PhD I've ever talked to because I mean for a lot of reasons but you you articulate things so well and and your depth of knowledge and range and topic and the way you communicate so what do you do now? How do people follow you? How do people connect with you? And and what can we expect from you? Are you going to run for governor at some point? Oh God now I could never do politics like that. I just I couldn't I think politicians are awful anyway, so what do I do? Okay, so I have a consulting company. Actually. It's called transversal Consulting and we do Thursday. We're more like a boutique consulting firm. We do projects for various companies ranging from oil services companies to other management consulting firms to you know, PR firms. We do a lot of different things connected to oil and geopolitics a lot of what would you kind of you kind of noted which is who do a lot in terms of helping people communicate these ideas better. So sometimes people will they'll have these they want to explain where they want something well explained so that everybody can understand what they're talking about in terms of oil and geopolitics and energy markets. And so we do we were very good at producing material and and explain things. I also give tops in person. Although now mostly online about energy Market politics geopolitics, you know, kind of what to expect we don't really do like wage. Here's our Target price of oil kind of thing. I don't believe that that's a very useful thing for me to do, but we'll talk about what are the various factors so that you are or whatever busy earn-in help make a more educated decision about where things are going. So so you can find us a transversal consulting.com. You can find me particularly. I'm very active on the Twitter in the Twitter universe. So you can definitely follow me there. I write in a variety of different places. I write a weekly column about kind of more focused on creating and and oil prices for investing.com. I also write for Forbes about slightly less technical issues. And then I also sometimes right on Bloomberg if you're interested in hearing more about the ramp or IPO. I suggest you check out some of my op-eds in the New York Times because I wrote a couple of op-eds about about the IPO there on Twitter. Yep. Follow me at energized economy. And that's the economy and definitely give me a shout out on on Twitter. If your Your Life podcast. Well you you are you are a rockstar. I am I am a fanboy but I just I my favorite thing about hosting a podcast and I always say that I wish I had hosted it earlier because you become such a better listener now might not be the greatest listener of all time, but I promise you I'm better than I used to be and I get to talk to really really smart people like yourself. So my advice to myself if I could go back twenty years ago would be start a podcast learn to listen better. It'll make you a better leader. If you could go back to your twenty, you're twenty year ago self and give yourself some advice. What would you tell yourself? Oh gosh. Don't waste your time on the academic job market cuz it's not going to happen. I love it. I love it song. They'll become a PhD and then use it in the private Market. Yeah, and I'd also say like I'm glad I got my PhD mostly because I never would have gotten into the things that I've gotten into life since then I never would have discovered how interesting oil is but a PhD is really not all that useful in the private sector. It's just not and I you know, I did enjoy the experience and I love teaching and I love that I can teach college students and and but do you teach now do you teach them? I'm not currently teaching but I have in the past taught like one or two classes at a local University. I'm not at the moment, but but it was really like eye-opening. I I hit the job market at the worst absolutely worst possible time when they were absolutely no jobs, and I I think I would have told myself I would have said, you know, like get the PHD or or like go to business school or something at the end then and and dead. Look elsewhere cuz it was it was a demoralizing experience and there's so much else out there in the world that's interesting and and interesting things and people to talk to and I've like I love this world so much more than the academic world that I was in. Well, I I think you're Rockstar for everyone for all the listeners. Honestly. This is a really really nice optional books Audi ink is the name Ellen wall. Does the author thank you so much for joining us on the hot take of the day podcast. I look forward to staying in touch with you and I always really respect and appreciate what you're doing. You get the book on Amazon Barnes & Noble anywhere books are sold. Yes, and there's audio book to for those who like that. Do you read it? No, I do not get a guy with a British accent does Patrick Stewart which was very sad because I really thought he would be best. I've had a lot of people asked me to read what the f is wrong with everybody else. And teach you in business school, which is my book because everyone says I write exactly like I talk and so if they've ever met me once they can hear me talking the entire book so that like you should just read it. I haven't done it yet, but it might make sure you have the voice for it. Well, I appreciate it. I've had I've had a lot of fun with this. So elen thank you so much. We'll be in touch until next time be safe be good. Have a great day off and

Biden Florida OPEC Panhandle America Saudi Arabia North Florida Aramco South Dakota Ellen Walt Saudi Inc. Wyoming Alexandria ocasio 50% eighty-year New York Ellen eighty year Andrew Yang Pete buttigieg
Great Sporting Rivalries

Head In The Game

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Great Sporting Rivalries

"Okay. I got a question for you. Yeah. I I've been reading Treasure Island. Oh, yeah. Do you think if I go vote together? Yeah. We go hunting for gold and actually find it be honest, where we think we go into the channel and just look gold. Yeah. That's a really good idea getting work. What you get job. John. Okay. Everyone. I'm Jamie laying in this his head in the game. You're central to the big sporting event of the week. It's a challenge to get the low down from varada guests who know more about sports than I apparently do so with this weekend's double whammy of Jews between England Wales in the six nations and Man United and Liverpool in the Premier League. This week's episode is of course, devoted to great sporting rivalries alongside me as a man who's no stranger to survive. He's an action comedian after all, it's Mr. Alex. I hate you. Oh, very clever. I know what you're doing there. That's very funny. Okay. Good. Yeah. I do who was your rival at school, Jerry, Charlie Davies. Oh, yeah. Really why that was a go. I kissed a heat his tires. Well. I like to. Yeah. He had the cool backpack. He had the coup trousers. You know, he even had that pencil case opened up on the side. He didn't have Pence cases Eddie now, we had a quill. Carried a Sach was anyone allowed to kiss on without a former introduction for a parent guardian or some of them, local council sporting rivalries. I explore of course, are, but we offer onto epic events this week and Man United versus Liverpool and wells versus England. That's right now, we're delighted to have with us in the studio ESPN senior sports rights, Tom Hamilton, Tom LA, chops Thome sporting rivalries, come in many forms between countries clubs individuals fans. Would you agree that these great rivalries are one of the main reasons we love sports so much? I think it's one of those things you grew up with you always hood these stories about the traditional rivalries some of that comes from your parents in psalms. Spoiler is not in terms of rivalry between your parents, ROY is on sports and depends on where you grew up. I grew up in bath, the big rivalry there. It was actually rub your Gloucester just on a road. So that was sort of thing which look forward to every single year. And it's there is something to look forward to. Something which happens outside, the sport almost inexplainable. But quite fun. Now, we're gonna talk more about the weekend's biggest showdowns between nights and live born, of course, England as well as the rugby. But I I wanted to ask you the sixty four thousand dollar question. Now, we've run a pool to gauge when our listeners think and more of that coming up, but what do you think is the greatest rivalry in sport to cut to the chase? It's actually really hard question to deal with. So I told Jamie can get this is what I have to put up with every single week. He's like he's like my Mike Grimm. I agree. Visit tough question to start with us. We could split this into different categories teams. Individuals and countries. So let's start with lovers between clubs which robbery Stanzel view are think for me as classical what versus Luton China. Yeah. Not quite one boss line. Real Madrid's peixe heads been thrown at Figo the reasons behind it, the money, the drama messy Renaldo all, but every club has big rivalries. But it's usually like the local Darby also versus Spurs on Newcastle versus Sunland, isn't it? There're still their thing. It's Northland Darby gets very excited about that. The monster is will in the Old Firm Rangers Celtic something still which goes back to this little of medieval things of wanting to be better than the next village next door to your thing. All rivalries as intense when one of those teams is in decline thinking about ranges against Celtic when Rangers weren't in Scottish, primarily being that rivalry had to be put on hold and Scottish football in my opinion, suffered as a result of it. Look awesome. Monday nights, for example, that bulled over nicely back ten years ago with pizza gates and Martin van Nistelrooy, then that was a nice Roveri of Ferguson vendor for the next ten years. That's probably been down this. But now that time law firm, so you just mentioned this of managerial Rory what are the sorts of reasons there for team fans age, some rivalries might be sporting robberies only one hundred years, but in terms of a historical background will go back thousands of years. So India Pakistan is one which is a one of the great sporting Rovers, but that's more perhaps than just cricket this arrivers. Transcend sport the to ice skaters Tonia Harding and Nancy Kerrigan the two of them competing, those skating for America ended up with a think I haven't seen the film ever seen the ESPN thirty thirty on it where one of them ended up sort of people around her ends up caving the other person's knee. What's physically damaging them in a rivalry way? Yes. Absolutely. She wouldn't be doing triple sell co with one hanging off. Also, we cannot forget our lessons. Across the pond big up to our American people out there as we ought to hone in on the great American rivalries. So I'm thinking about Boston Red Sox versus Neil Yankees. They really done very well back to nineteen nineteen when Babe Ruth went to the Yankees. I mean just last year sparked up again in two thousand three hundred seventy two year old bench coach thrown to the ground by one of the Red Sox play it properly of two thousand four was when the Red Sox broke their Babe Ruth curse, which loss of nine thousand nine hundred transfer. So that's been a nice one coming to London. This year really limbic stadium in July now rivalries in boxing. It's been a lot of individual rival reserves. Muhammad Ali against Joe Fraser out of the ring as well. With Ali basing Frazier over his his various views, and then if you look towards the nineties, you bang, Ben Tyson, Holly, forty the blokes ear. I'm now, I suppose great spokesman wherever patio overs. Maybe weirdly, I didn't know why I have this. I still have the newspaper cuttings of Tyson biting Holly fields. Air any reason for no reason have it for some reason. Bizarre. What other countries do you have got one in the drop kick Jonny Wilkinson did it for the World Cup? These two biting air and while Cup Laurie. Do you think some sportsmen genuinely hate each other or taking the case of boxing? It's awesome Schanche last two pounds. Now is the time. I mean, the books ROY is now seems to be more social media based. So if say one box alikes picture of the other boxes, MRs on Instagram, and suddenly all hell breaks loose. So on pokes personal Facebook, if poking still thing, but it seems to be a bit more manufactured, but Emma, may for example, that seems to be actual hate there between John Jones and Daniel corny, but Patrick Vieira, Roy Keane. They weren't exactly best mates whether mutual respect there. I think to them playing the same position they didn't know how to wind each other up. What about missing Renaldo? Do they like each other? They know whether it will plays LAC each other tool at the moment because they seem to be in little bubbles that big jealousy. Overtime. Isn't that the balance rules Messier Onoda will still disappearance objective? He prefers them. And the two of them seem to they never said anything about each other just like sit one-seat away from each other. What about your era missed Alex Borg McEnroe McEnroe was kind of impetuous bratty type of you cannot be serious. I am he was bradtha sort of. And yet today like each other you ball and back Leroux probably not the same as veteran, Adele. But I think the us that ROY motivate them selves as well. So if my corona can get hey being far before a game on the he might turn unlivable now just to Jerry was slightly taking the Mickey out of me there. But another one for my hero was co an overt, and it seemed to me that you would side with over. He was slightly more sort of a maverick kinda person. If you you're into sort of as a classic example into Sebastian Coe, an either being on the wrong side of the tracks with Steve over. Why would I be into Sebastian Coe? Because he was a sort of pure chariots of fire type he was that was. That was a little bit more rough and ready the underdog who don't get running one of the big rivalries for me is both Gatland. I mean, incredibly to amazing sprinters. You're not finished firm in London, of course, at the world championships with Gotland pleasing both hundred meters. And then bolting hamstring in the full by one hundred as well. So that was the perfect tragic end the Hollywood ending to a bowl career, which will make a lovely movie. One day later will be focusing on this weekend's big gains remained United and Liverpool and Wales versus England. Now last week. We asked you to vote for your biggest sporting rivalries, and we had a huge response. I thank you very much for that. So here we go with the top ten sporting rivalries as voted by you voice. Yes. Are you ready? Of course, you the music number ten Floyd Mayweather vs Conor McGregor. The biggest person sporting history between them they made over four hundred million dollars. Now, my nine prostate Senna Formula one speed kings clashed on and off the track. Jack, number eight, welcome juniors and Ridha plate. It's known as the super classic. Oh, a rivalry. So intense it often leads to rioting and attacks on match officials number seven the nineteen eighty Olympics ice hockey showdown between the United States and the Soviet Union. A one of clash that produced a dramatic finish the Americans when the the last second number six, it's the ashes England and Australia. One of the longest rivalries in sports goes all the way back to eighteen eighty two India-Pakistan was just outside the top ten by the way. Number five. One of American sports faces rivalries. The Boston Red Sox fee New York Yankees famous for the curse of the Bambi. No when Babe Ruth was sold to the Yankees, number four, Leonov messy and Cristiano Renaldo the two dominant footballers of the millennium have been competing for the title of best player in the world for over a decade, number three federa- and Dowell possibly the two greatest players all time going toe to toe baldly McEnroe also got a few votes as. They've Chris Evert versus Martina Navratilova number two Celtic v Rangers. This was almost the winner. The Old Firm Darby more than justifiable match and number one lever. His Frazier the boxing trilogy that culminated in the thriller in Minnesota also known as the fight of the century. And that is your top ten sporting rivalries. I can't believe the Ryder Cup didn't make the list. Hey, ho, what about the small print voice? Oh, yes. Thanks, everyone. Feel contributions. Join the conversation on our Facebook page head in the game podcast, terms and conditions apply. Always with label. Sorry. That's something else. I was doing voice right here. So Tom, what did you think is that top ten any glaring omissions laws? No classical my favorite sporting Roveri, which unfortunately, didn't make the cuts Kaas Brogan steep. Blue Jamie line against brought phone as a few in the. Right. Then that's focused on this weekend's big game. Yes. And with us on behalf of the respective teams. We got writer and broadcaster. Neil Atkinson who host one of the most popular Liverpool podcast the Anfield rap which is as including two Wicky has over this, right? Twenty eight million downloads worldwide load, unfor- balanced, we must have caused Manchester United supporters while his Ed Barker from the United rent podcast. Okay. So guys, I'm this is up to kneel. First of all the little Monday night rivalry is unusual because most British clubs biggest rival tends to be from the same city. Why is this the exception rather than the rule? Well, it sort of business salsa, visions, threes Everson, Everton do exist. They are think there's nothing sweeter in the world and spawning a one nil win against where the ball bounces off the crossbar goalkeeper palms on. So let's just bad in mind before we get stuck in here. But United says, this is a rivalry transcends. Football to be quite honest with you can Roussy, right? The way back to the ship canal. If you won't so you can go all the way Boxster nineteenth century industrial revolution. Liverpool-manchester two cities. That have a lot in common to fantastic cities. The two cities of the north of England really stage, but culturally economically, especially Manchester station, that leads to the being a genuine rivalry between the two we want to do each other every possible opportunity on it's fair to say that all the football that masters in England's happens between Liverpool among Chester practically every other chief by every other Clovis boarding on the contract like it will take it seriously the concealed carry about little pool among Chester United much more than a cares about Chelsea Manchester City was the big rivalry before Liverpool's success in the seventies. And eighties yet the rivalry was ongoing throughout that period. That Suchart of the has been, you know, football rivalries, change massively anyway, Mark at least, you know, since the nineteen fifties sixties. Postwar later and so on. But there was a rivalry between Liverpool month just United. You know, they have been the to call clubs of English football. I would argue pro these since since World War Two so that rivalry is dead. And that's the thing there for this. The two cities to live through and understand. And enjoy the best thing about this. I'll say it again is the, you know, the world's eyes will be on Old Trafford for this game physical final the same day. A no one cares. The game that matters much. Just united. I liverpool. Vacs. The game masters. It's the game. I will always matter. That's the that's the thing that the rest of the country struggles with it's why people don't wanna see little pool. Oman United win anything. It's why the minute the people in the confederacy Manchester City win the league the middle. If it was my United up there with Muncie. Instead of those people rather see Manchester City when the league among just United. That's the reality of it. There's two clubs that matter and the two clubs face each other ultra I almost fully agree with everything Neil said, but in terms of the history, and why this fixture matters. And what it means? Manchester United fan. So we're in a weird position of of routing city on the season because no one at all Trafford was little too in this league MS really strange Polly's because we don't take city that seriously. They weren't a particularly big club before have we w came along and gave them millions and millions the magnitude and the seriousness of the rivalry with loophole Israel. So that's why we're hearing city on to this fake share the two biggest features of the season is is what matters to everyone at United States with the clubs is one. We really want in. We're coming to this Fisher in good form for once because he's been pretty miserable over the last couple of seasons. I mean, I I should one last season. But the performances earlier this season under jersey marina and last season to be honest when she started the season. Well and winter and field in part the bus. Have been horrible. Now. We're playing good football. It should be a real game as a Manchester United fan. You're actually saying that if it came down to new force to pick you would pick ma'am city to win the title over Liverpool. Yeah. They not real club. They don't count. Points. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they look city wouldn't be anything in title race without outside money. We know that all the sponsorships are, you know, highly dubious when they come to report their revenue figures. Yeah. No, one takes him particularly seriously loopholes on matters challenge there, of course, because I've city doesn't count and win the league does that make little factor champions in ninety five months. No, definitely not. But it's I mean know we we've talked about on on our part anyway. Yeah. For sure United fans who'd rather city won this league. I mean that's kneeling. Switch it over to you. Now. So other you heard what Ed said are there any circumstances where you would support United playing? Yes. Final final against the United United to win the league not support much of the United States. You know, if United facing Avidan, I mean, most games if you're not nice to play an evidence tomato, probably be quite. I mean, it depends probably quite like evidence to get a fortunate victory of the United. But if side to win six months, just the United States what about Champions League final United final if they would against Everton. Yes, science fiction. Not really, isn't it. Let's be honest for the French knights facing any other football team in the Champions League final. I would almost certainly won't the conflict of an opponent's. I wouldn't want to win. Okay. So how did you react in one thousand nine hundred nine when United defeated by? I was actually devastated by ten events. Fist vestige treble while the fish travel before we did it. It's worth remember not the only reason little to shovel in seventy seven is kitchen is win the Cup. Final little season won the league in the order paying political final Jesse and ISIS. So yeah, it wasn't great. When United what I'm sure, you know, I'm sure that the medical of estan Paul did not raise shared among Chester. This is what it means football's tribal, and it's meant to be about location. It's meant to be about all those things that are messed up and sometimes dockside sides that Ed what about you? What about when Liverpool came back against Milan? In two thousand and five I watched in a bar in London. I would say ninety nine percent of the ball was supposing Liverpool in that one. And I had my head in my hands. So that wasn't a great moment. But you know, I guess I've lost thirty years or so little fans needed the bright spot. Because of course, they haven't won the league in coming up to thirty years and. I'm sure it'd be plenty of people United celebrating the thirtieth anniversary when it comes up in mayo side. Okay. So Ed how about this one? If a Liverpool player scores for England World Cup. Do you celebrate as much as any other place? Going Freeland surprise, I this is an odd one because United fans have a an odd relationship with England. So I think have been a number of incidents over the years where United kind of fell the FA hadn't given United affair shake things. I into Gary Neville and referred an end and a few others. And the fact that you're not is just so much more important to fans than England that context. Yeah. Sure. I mean in the summer, I enjoyed worsening Lynda. Actually, I think that hasn't always been the case in the last twenty years or side and that that's kind of an enjoyable experience and the country are. Along with it. And so I actually remember to my head rather loop of players scored in tournament. I'm sure I would celebrate it. But it's in the context of not really being much of an England fan, generally. And I think quite a lot of United fans feline turning to you nail is really interested about this this rivalry with Everton because I've I've been out there. And of course, it's just across Stanley park. Isn't it the Dr begins? Everybody's known as the friendly Darby. You didn't tell particularly friendly talking about just now that's another unusual phenomenon in football. Why is there less animosity between those two clubs into the pool? There was a period of time with that was the case circumstances have changed a little bit. There's still the the pools are thrives upon solidarity. And I think that that's the case. And I think that little Walton does come together in times of need in crisis, and that's an ongoing thing and this will deflect on around the food banks three to clubs which is looked after by little pool whenever supposes together. I think it's you know, an ankle. Actions made the mole Liverpool Lebo closer situated. So I think that remains true. But the Darby itself Dhabi day itself and goes on around the Merseyside, I don't believe it to be any more or less friendly than for instance, the east Anglian Dhabi, or for instance, the potteries Darby don't think that that's you know, that's any longer the case. And I don't think that you can quite quite stands old anymore. Tons of reasons for that Liverpool is a city will still stunned together. But will do it will still do show in the context of football? But that isn't exactly the same as acting as though we all skip along the road together before the Darby and skipper on along the road together afterwards studies, most definitely not true. Let's go back to the reason why we'll head this weekend's game. Now, there's a lot riding on this. Ed Liverpool have never wanna primarily title. They've had a few chances in recent years. United can't win the league right as a huge opportunity to stop the rivals. Again. It's pretty tasty. Isn't it? Always as always tasty. I guess when jersey was United manager. He did his very very best to not make the games, very tasty. But he's gone now. And we can look forward Nazi not just to the game and the context the title race and yes United card way while about. About maybe we'll win every game from here on in. But it seems still still wouldn't be enough now. But and yes, you can put a dent in loopholes hopes and all matters. But we're actually going to enjoy watching this United team again. And I can't tell you how much how important is the producer ranker's. Tom said today. It's alright talking about goals and passing matrix X g and stuff like that. But the only thing that matters XP expected buzz because people care about the football, again Josie was a dark really dark cloud hanging over United. And it was a joyous occasion Rooney's fired. And we've got we've got a United manager. He was a former player in a hero ninety-nine earlier who's who's immediately turned team around not into not just winning games. But winning by playing really good exciting football. Guess people feet. So you know, there's the context of the title race is the rival relive opponents. We're actually playing good football against all of that matters. Okay. Nail much is being made liberal being bottlers. I've been listening to Klopp recently. And he did have slight with of the old Keegan I would love it. This is a chance to prove the doubters wrong, isn't it? I just absolutely argue with the premise of the question the first place, I think cops attitude towards all of this all the way through the seasons being that it's a sport contest, Stacey games. And you gotta get as many as you come to them. And he's been very consistent on that. The and you know, are genuinely do argue with with the premise shootout. And I don't think this liberal side is anything to prove. I don't the Manchester City side. Anything's approve taught them any approve these three of the best sides that are played primarily football, the Manchester City Cyclope de aside. I was primarily football this every chance they finished the season with a hundred ninety haven't got one hundred ninety points from the seventy six league games average in to ninety five point seasons. That's that's what the probably going to do. The idea that what we're gonna do is. We're going to reduce this title about lens or some notion of I'm Butler's. Oh frauds is frankly, discuss stint on it doesn't speak to that. They ability that these football is shown on the pitch so far this season. So no one's gotten ethan's. Prove not these three sides who right now, we're going to rate of nonsense of number of points. That is being so rarely seen throughout the whole of top-flight English football district on the way back to the nineteenth century. So I think it's important to say that it's important to frame at Liverpool. Don't beat Manchester United, and I think they will by the way. But if they don't it won't be because someone's bottle, they'll something's gone, you know, someone's being proven not to be anywhere near as good as we all he'll be because this is a really good by the United size. They were able to take three points off livable. And I think that's I think that the shooter we get that of language out the schools, not elite sports people to be honest with you, and we show them the requisite respect the deserve. Chickens. Jamie. Yes. Now what about the game itself? Now the last time you wanna Old Trafford was in two thousand fourteen in three no win. Yeah. Stephen Girard school t penalties. You could do the result like that can you? Well, the time before that we want to Old Trafford thousands of nine and we beat them four one on the time before that we want to Old Trafford may not be a wanted to. But we will man as well. The reason I'm touching on those seasons is there are three most recent attempts to tell the title and on the whole one of the reasons why Liverpool beat them in the legal through with an Old Trafford in the league. But we have to go through across the two legs on on. All those occasions Liverpool. I would argue if being better football team the munched United on. That's why I think we'll win this game. Because I think what a better football team, Manchester United's of that was still in dispute around this time last season when we went to Old Trafford, I think that this was a little site that was still finding it's feasible right now it's a liberal site that sits top of the Premier League playing some fantastic store from his demonstrates the coast. Campaign the absolute business. This is a really good money. United seem really go players. But I expect liberals Stangl becomes it's play the football that we know the get the results because that tends to be what happens when Liverpool a better the Manchester United and right now Liverpool on a loss of points. Better the Manchester United's, listen edge. Would you swap a top four place for livable? Not winning the title love. You know? I think it was dry feces in it and the obsession top for Israeli just about money, and I I know the champions ladies, really important, and it's the prestige competition why the clubs care about it is because of the revenues now on no show. We would I think United with swaps winning Europa league couple of seasons ago for place in top for that season toll. So fortunately enough as far as the your overly came with a Champions League place isn't not dilemma to Neal's point. The game. I mean, clearly this is flying the best little side in the last twenty years. Also, I guess. And playing great football. I believe in the nation of bottles their pressure points in adult clubs in across all seasons and foam comes and goes, you say they've had some difficult games in recent times and jobs in points. I think they'll be few surprises in terms of how United place this is a team that's playing from the front the mouth ball recovery's United getting the permanence attacking third is huge is complete change of system. So it's definitely a softened the belly. You know, I am not quite sure he played at the back. But there's vulnerability and manages the problem in defensive midfield. So. I mean the tankers knee wardrobe. Yeah. And he's three years passes is best and as a problem for United. But in the system always decided if I was on the string sushi's folks attacking football for exam. Getting the ball is earliest possible from the opponent and been interesting clash because it's definitely not what Marino is doing. When he was manager. He was gonna marina was still in charge. This game. We'll be setting out in a very low block with with probably five at the back and to covering those and it'd be miserable miserable of win one nail base. There wouldn't be a great game for. Why thing I have got a real hope? This can be really good game football as well. Mark markets. United performance. Where to hey man of the match Potter's thirty minutes of the game where United with the best in those thirty minutes to the goal in the game. And if strung from surprised that shot on the still not a lot of evidence for anyone's coaching staff to go on to gonna sell shies going to do and big games on big occasions. You still got a few question marks around. I think Liverpool might find a little difficult to region is it before kick-off letters suspect. So Shire is analysts could pick nine if not ten if not even eleven little star eleven after the bye, Munich games depends on who's fit. Everybody boys. Right do colors when you get away Dhabi game. Or just you're lucky pans, be honest. I never I never close to the game. It's subjects goodnight's outs. Turn up. They hid. Knowing where colours. Fatness extracts. And have you gonna message to opposite number here? Keep it very clean. Yeah. Good luck. Get like for the rest of the season. Just not too much luck. And I I'm really a positive moods. And being generous. I'm just so looking forward to this game. I I cannot tell you how much of a relief it is to have only in charge and for this to be good team again. And I to be actually played nice football moving me, happier than go and tosa toe-to-toe next with Manchester United when they try to win that twenty first title, and we tried to twenty it's. Lovely nice. Thank you. Thank you. So much nail Atkinson at Balka, boys. Thank you very much. Good luck. Need their stuff Tomita? This is a huge rivalry a huge game. Isn't it? I think so I think based on not nails one. Neil. I think we'll. Tell you rooting for this weekend. All in bar, so reminding fun and makes no sense. So nights. But is there part of you that wants to win because it's livable. There is the best quite romantic, isn't it? Yeah. It's the stories the Hollywood ending the subplots as well, we're gonna social trying to get a fulltime contracts. Live pool haven't won the Premier League, many years the hatred still there, you know, Jamie Carragher, Gary Neville, Easter loved to have a each other to the place where you stand think socia- shortly certainly for me, though, it's going to be really Riddick. Sizing and I think Monday nights just about exit but liberal Mike on win the Premier League. Tom. Thank you very much. If you don't want stay with us. But for now, we're gonna switch bull shape and talk about this weekend's other big game Wales versus England, and with this is jed Colley priest from the attacking scrum podcast and Dan would from the England rugby pot. Hello, boys. Yeah. I have a question for you. Now Jedou I'm assuming you're wearing a Welsh top. So you're an England fan. Why is it such intense rivalry between England Wales? How long have you got put in a side, the cultural rivalry and the political history? Go back hundreds and hundreds of years. There is a fantastic rivalry on the pitch as well. Now, you look back to the seventies. And the great size of the chat. Then I really feel in those days it was a proper way of the Washington express themselves through which three planes. So it's fantastic. Rugby fast forward many years England had lots of lots of dominance. And now we find ourselves in a position where you've got to pretty well match sides over the course of the last ten years. And would you say that's the biggest robbery amongst the home nations. Yeah. I would I guess because because of my family, my upbringing, I would say that. But I'm sure if you asked if you ask discussion, and so in Ireland was, you know, it's you listen to the fear the the the other week, and it's very hard to argue with that as well. But from my point of view Stanley, and what does it mean to be England? It is everything. And there's a bit of a thing in Wales that people talk about getting away from the mentality of long as we beat the English which was very prominent here in the nineties when we had a pretty poor side. But for me, particularly living in London is just a gut wrenching time for me the week before the game art struggle to enjoy it. I just. Yeah. It is. It's the one fixture a fan of sports. But it's the one thing that my stomach turns. And I feel absolutely sick until the final whistle guys and win sticks with like some hideous hangover switch the question of what does it feel like to beat Wales? Beat while. I love Welsh PayPal. I love the country while football. I wanna see. Wiles win if wildfire against anyone I want to see them lighted to me. They England's biggest game. I want to be Lyles moving. I wanna be any other country. Unlike jet, I kind of get what you mean. I love that week love I really embraced. I really look forward to it probably on the plane. So I don't have to deal with that side of that. But I I love a build up just for ferocity of it this year screaming, I think England absolutely dominant in Cardiff. They're just so good right now, I've got I've got massive respect for the team for that coaches. But I can live. Linda moment, she knew I love them. I love driving in that pulling my car opened up the baton and having a picnic called Navarre my favorite pin. This. That Roy Jones when they're representing the English plays in Welsh pleasure represents the lion's cheer them. All not yet completely different. One hundred percent hundred percent below inside country from the poverty lines supporting them later. And that's a great thing about rugby. Right. Is that? Yes, there's this huge rivalry whether it's England whatever it is. But you still have respect you still have that kind of admirations towards plans when they play together, you still sort of support them and like them if the plane for lunch, which I really like let me go to you. What is your favorite win ever over wells? It has thousand three quarterfinal bag when why have started SARS strong like Wales not much of a team then in Venice. But they started so strong in. It's like man what's going on. Like could we lose this with so good? And then the boys came back Johnny took it in his hands drop-goal just slightly when I think Robinson carved apar- for Greenwood's to score that one. Was that was a men's and at the time. I didn't understand how bad it was. It's not till you hear the injuries afterwards. Every English guys were saying hard time. They like this could be the worse scenario go out to wiles when with favors win the World Cup and search your jet. What about you? What is your favorite wins over England? It'd be between two rarely. So Scott Gibbs going the last minute Wembley nine thousand nine hundred nine to deny the grand slam that felt very good. But I think it's been taken by the winning Cardiff in two thousand thirteen England coming into into time with the opportunity to to win a slam Wales. Then not only ninety to deny them that. But giving them a pretty good hammering and taking the title as well say that that one's definitely say. What is it about Wales that makes England won't beat them so bad done? What is it? It's love. Hey, lie down by any means hates the Welsh lie. I love the Welsh sounds like you hate the world. I hate awhile truck. Sort of inbuilt like I say if watch football or any of spore all support them as long as planning land. But when it comes to rugby, I think it's just because I night. So I do podcast. My best made every time England play regardless of replying. We will get Welsh people messed in telling us how rubbish England I'm not made. We just took the friendship you any just beat the Italians. What are you doing just focus on yourselves, and they just are intense? It's good rivalry. It's like in right way. I think jet what about you? What makes what makes the English where he would have beat them? So bad. I guess my hatred of English point teams extends to football as well. That whole is coming home nonsense. The whole summer was driving me mad. It didn't even make any sense. But I think it's only these things that kind of feel that just feel that desire, and you wanna see wanna see them kind of get done over. Yeah. For me. It is anyone, but the English whoever they're playing so in that case, there are no circumstances of thinking about you. In which you would to England no other team which you would back England. Again, England were playing a Saddam Hussein selects tation fifty. Guys. I would still have to the garden, right? You're the opposite. Right. Because you. Oh team. I would support the Welsh again it really. Yeah. I've massively respect the players, and I've got enough like some of the players brilliant. I love watching play but against the stem Hussein fifteen give me some combatants and give me a Tashin guys. Got the g that jet is brought up to be. Gonna play rugby. Yeah. Can I ask you is? It mentioned football just then and you hate to coming home business or jingoism. Is it more gentlemanly rivalry in Rugby Football? A hundred percent. I think I went to twenty fifteen I went to England at Twickenham for the World Cup where England and Wales. One we were sitting next to some Welsh guys we had a couple of beds afterwards surprise, your Bantu and a not stung that. Stunks lose out. Hire me up. I think it's done in the right way. Like, I passionately won the Welsh to lose. But I also passionately to have a bear. But also, that's the other big thing. Right. You rarely see fights rugby. Don't you because it same kind of like boxing because everyone's knocking seven bells themselves in the pitch that whenever the new audience. They didn't really fight do. They know. I I've never seen any problems arabica as Jedi like a fight. Knuckleduster in the crowd. I am an it's worry. Lied math. And shall shouts? I done identity. It's always kind of in the moment. I'd like to think that the language into blue. I was I was a rugby match wants Africa. And it was so Africa says I think it was tri-nations game in New Zealand, everyone shouting all these things players, and then one guy stood up and shouted something to the referee about his mum and everyone offering. He's a classic run become examples of self place. Boundary game has got the best songs. I mean, his swing low. This the only one the English one England has icon saver bus going the other way. Oh. Our? I feel like the. Yeah. That's the only problem. I think that we're not going to Twickenham, and I listened to the chance it's very much swing low. And that's it. But I feel like the Welsh have more songs, Geno. Yeah, potentially. I think the problem is is it has been getting big Wasser evening now, and again identifies time to the pricing and traditional rugby founding price Diabate, it's definitely bit quite a six nations on his different. I think it is different for that. But you look at the games in the autumn. And there's not the singing there. Once was not obsessed me that is really sad. I mean, that's what wells is unbelievable. The post Trump beaten. Okay. It's now set up for the big decider pretty much, isn't it? This is this is this is what it's going to be wells in England. Whoever winter is gonna win the whole thing. Do you think I think definitely? Yeah. What about you? Yeah. I think witness they've they've got relatively speaking series games to to finish. If England be Wales they will not the slime if Wales win I think will win the title, but not necessarily the grand slam. He's still got on and Arlanda Highland Scotland away. So I'm not quite as bullish about it. But right now, all I can think of is England game or NFL's a betting, man. Okay. Dime. Mortar school can be done. I dunno diving England by twelve or more really England applying silo at the moment while contain of good players, but they've been poor. I jet unshowable disagree. But but I hope against FRANZ was lychee schoolboy stuff against Italy. They just weren't precise. If they do that against England will absolutely punish them England, applying some really good rugby, man. I'm of course, going to say that. But I think it reflects in results and jed you just lost quickly. Whereas nineteen England something thank you so much for coming in a good luck this weekend to fight on the way out. Right. Appreciate it voice. Thank you very much. Thanks. Tom. What are your thoughts on the clash? Well, those two go rather world low packet seventies. Phil Bennett, Premark speech. He hollowed to all the things that in his own words England dunks the world with a few more explosives, including the fact that English people by holiday homes in wells and only lived there for two weeks. So it got quite heated in that regard wells. We're gonna win. This was a golden era in the late nineties early thousands. It was more fiber wells were party poopers because they're team was inferior to England's there. But now that to really evenly matched teams. But some ROY Warren Gotland bought Eddie Jones, a courage just before the six nations tournament up from lowest Butler read. So I think between them to the ROY is not really they're the players on the lines every four years, again, the rivalries perhaps been list bit looted the on the pitch. Eddie Jones team fired up gotten is going gonna get his team fired up. Expect few yellow cards expect called Sinclar to continue chopping awareness. Crumlin he has been doing an fun. Tell them how. Thank you so much for coming in today. Make really appreciate it. Thanks. So here's where we get to exercise all rivalry again. It's time for the weekly quiz. Yes. It's their head and they game quiz, ready, boys. Route one true of os first question to Alex truffles when the Brooklyn Dodgers moved to California in nineteen fifty seven owner, Walter O'Malley convinced the New York Giants to do the same in order to continue their rivalry. Definitely true. You're right. The teams became the LA dodgers and the San Francisco giant. Thank you, Jamie. Gophers Arnold Palmer, and Jack Nicklaus's rivalry was so intense that caddies once had a food fight at an after game Buffy, easy, folks. Correct. One apiece. Alex the banjo bowl an annual CFL grudge match between bitter rivals. The Winnipeg blue bombers and the Saskatoon on rough riders started. Because Troy Westwood of the bombers call the rough riders banjo picking Enbridge in two thousand three definitely true Kerr. Correct. Jamie bubble match was the term coined to describe the friendly atmosphere at liver bulletin Everton Darby's force, it's false term coined by the police to Sean troublesome away fans around the country around to genuine Dhabi or fake -ment of my imagination. Alex, tricky switches f c versus Monte tiger. Absolutely false. That's right. It's a fake -ment. Jamie. A Sentate a taco versus King Faisal babes. It's going to be false. No, it's true. It's a new job in Ghana. Alex eastern lions vs. Mighty blackpool. It's true. It's a big job in Sierra Leone, Jamie turf. Blasters Goldstar is Chuck me fly with fake -ment of your imagination days of my imagination. But I pay to see that game in my backyard round three final round multiple choice, Alex in their professional bouts. How many rounds Alleyen Frazier fight in the ring a hundred and forty four B forty-one see twelve easy twelve it's forty one. Okay. Jamie questioned to step cone Stevo bed only race each other six times when they first met in the nineteen seventy eight European championships eight hundred meter final who took the glory. Hey, Sep code the Stevo vet see all if buyer all it's going to be a subco- know what it was other a total unknown causing over to say Toco after the race. Was that Alex is third question at the hydrogen Cold War. Bobby Fisher from the United States took on the USSR's Boris basket. Chess Bobby came from a country of thirty five thousand chess players, how many people play chess across the Soviet Union at the time eight forty thousand be four hundred thousand C four million four million. That is correct. Final question, Jamie. It's all on this. Oh, come on come on Snooka as his Ronnie O'Sullivan and Mark Selby produced some classic hunter's, but was rookie nickname. His never say die rivaled the Selva be the torture. See the grinder all see the grinder. It's torture. Congratulations. Thank you voice. Your friends? So that's all we have time for this week drivers for an episode, but roof friends now hosts we are one ever, please. Subscribe and review if you haven't done ready and join us next week as we get putting up again for the NFL combine until then keep that head of yours. Italy gay ESPN in the game. Good. Wasn't it this these what's your real name? Not station. I'm not when we're doing the show. What's your your real name? So real life, Jamie lane. So this this persona. You do hear that? That's the real year you joking. We you all Shuli.

England Football Liverpool football United United States Manchester United Wales Everton Darby Tom Jamie London Manchester United Alleyen Frazier Mark Selby Rugby Football Alex Borg Rangers
Source: Saudi Intel Officer With Ties To Crown Prince Oversaw Khashoggi Mission; Details Emerge As Saudi's Prepare Their Explanation Of Events; War of Words; Death Toll From Hurricane Michael Rises

Anderson Cooper 360

50:10 min | 2 years ago

Source: Saudi Intel Officer With Ties To Crown Prince Oversaw Khashoggi Mission; Details Emerge As Saudi's Prepare Their Explanation Of Events; War of Words; Death Toll From Hurricane Michael Rises

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We begin tonight with breaking news, new account of the disappearance of US-based Saudi journalist, one involving his killing inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul at the hands of a team organized by high ranking Saudi intelligence officer with close ties to the inner circle of the kingdom's crown prince Mohammad bin salon. One of our sources described what he or she says, may have been an accidentally lethal injection followed by what is described as an amateur cover up, which included according to another source efforts to keep the Saudi government in the dark it even as chilling and damning as that sounds the question remains is that just a cover story for something far worse and potentially more damaging on the world stage was Jamal Khashoggi murdered by a hit team. And then as a Turkish official told us today, was his body cut into pieces to be disposed of in ways as yet unknown or unrevealed. There are certainly a lot to raise. Suspicion. Remember yesterday CNN saw cleaning crew entered the consulate before Turkish investigators went in remember also the Turkish investigators. Once they got inside said, they found evidence of some kind of cleanup including painted over surfaces and toxic materials, unquote. As you know, the turfs also say they have audio and video evidence of what went down, including because Shukshis death. Also today they released passport scans of seven Saudis. They suspected of being part of an alleged fifteen members, Saudi hit team, which is reported to have included an autopsy specialist with a bone saw any or all of those things argue against this new botched abduction and amateur cover up story, whatever the truth though, and we don't know at this hour, President Trump appears to be ready to cut the Saudis. Plenty of slack ready to go all in with it speaking with the Associated Press today, the president compared the situation to allegations of sexual assault level against supreme court, Justice, brick, Cavanaugh. He said, and I'm quoting here we go again with. You know, you're guilty until proven innocent. I don't like that. We just went through that with just as cavenaugh and he was innocent all the way as far as I'm concerned, he also told the AP that his belief that rogue killers may have been responsible was informed by what he called his feeling when speaking with the Saudi monarch, and here's what he told FOX business news earlier today. Turkey's looking at it very strongly. We're all looking at it together, but Turkey and Saudi Arabia, looking at it very strongly and it depends whether or not the king or the ground prints knew about it. In my opinion, number one, what happened but whether or not they knew about it if they knew about it, that would be bad. If they knew he says, now this new account of constructions disappearance leaves open the possibility. They did not and make that what you will. But as you do remember it, Doug tales neatly toward the president. This morning signaled was a willingness to believe. And remember just yesterday the president said something very similar. I just spoke with the king of Saudi Arabia who denies any knowledge of what the plays with regard to as he said his Saudi Arabian citizen. I've asked any firmly denied that you believe children. Mike Pompeo is leaving literally within an hour or so he's heading to Saudi Arabia. We are going to leave. Nothing uncovered with that being said, the king firmly denied any knowledge of it. He didn't really know. Maybe I don't wanna get into his mind, but it sounded to me like maybe could have been Rogie killers Bruno's. Who knows? He says, row killers, keeping them on. He, he probably does now either through Turkish intelligence assets or other allies, or perhaps by way of our own capabilities, we, the public may not know. But the commander in chief likely does at this point yet even based on our own limited knowledge, the notion of rogue killers or some kind of accidental murder. It doesn't really add up. For starters, the two are contradictory rogue killers and overzealous interrogators. Now, if they were interrogators, they would be there with the kingdom's blessing on the kingdom's orders, presumably is former c. i. director. Michael Hayden told us last night with the knowledge of crown prince NBS as he's known. He is after all the defacto head of an absolute monarchy who's already known to take a direct personal interest in security matters, and this would have been a high profile target. Now, if on the other hand, if as the president speculates shook, she was murdered by what he described. His robe killers were they let into the consulate by rogue members of the security team. Were they given rooms in the Saudi consulate to do the deed by other rogue officials did rogue intelligence officers posted to the consulate. Look the other way while a murder was committed on the premises, while the human being was screaming and perhaps being dismembered being butchered, did a rogue cleaning crew then come in followed by rogue painters were these rogue cleaning crews. This latest account were now being given. It doesn't answer those questions. Frankly, it only adds more questions more now from c. n. n.'s clerks award who help break this new development and joins us from encore with the very latest. So what more have you learned about this operation closer. Well, the most crucial component that we're learning about is the idea of who allegedly directed at three sources telling us this was a former military officer, someone high up in intelligence, someone close to the inner circle of Mohammed bin Salman the crown prince, and I think that's really the crucial point here Anderson. The person who ordered this operation is close to the inner circle of the crown prince. Therefore, it becomes much more difficult to believe that this kind of an operation which is bold and brazen, even by Saudi Arabian standards could be carried out without at least a sort of tacit nod of approval from the top. Now, we're also hearing from these sources that the operation went wrong. One source saying that apparently the operatives tried to tranquilize Mr.. Cooke g they gave him an injection with a tranquilizer. The presumption being that there was some. A reaction or at went wrong. Mr. Cooke, she died. They then made the determination that the best course of action was to carve his body into pieces that we do not yet know what happened to those pieces. And we're also hearing from our sources that the leader of the operation then made the determination that the best course of action was to try to cover it up. We heard that substantiated as well by president or two on himself today saying that, you know, there appeared to be areas that had been newly painted inside the Saudi consulate. You, of course, mentioned the infamous cleaners who arrived before investigators even got on the scene and there's just a broadening sense of skepticism about the ceremony narrative, which, although is not official yet seems to be based on the idea that this was some kind of botched operation rogue operation and that just doesn't dovetail with the reality of the way the Saudi power structure works. The reality is that in order to pull off an operation of. This brazenness you would ideally need to have some approval from the very top Anderson. I mean, the idea that some rogue killers would be able to just waltz into the Saudi consulate, you know, get her a couple of rooms and torture. Somebody ultimately dismembering them and then leave, and then they would clean it up. Others would clean the whole thing that doesn't seem to make much sense. And even the idea of judge just being an interrogation, I can understand why your doctor, you know, doctors are often present during interogations, but I assure jn a friend's ex surgeon with a bone saw that just seems like an odd detail or an odd piece of equipment to bring to something. If you're not planning on song something or somebody up. Indeed. And why would the operation be taking place in the first place? Why would they be interrogating and potentially trying to abduct Jamal Kush shook, Jay from Turkey to Saudi Arabia? If this wasn't something of vital national security importance if they didn't see this or if they didn't see because shook g. as dissident who pose some kind of existential threat, why wouldn't they have gone to the top? Also another important detail coming out from Turkish authorities today Anderson. They shared with CNN passports scans of seven of the men who were part of this operation. Lo and behold, one of them has been seen on state television alongside crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman. Everything seems to be pointing to the idea that the men who are involved with this operation. Indeed, the men who organized it or the man, I should say, organize it had a close relationship were often in close proximity with the man who is the defacto leader already of this country. Cush award appreciate the details. Now to that point, more new reporting on on just how closely connected the alleged killers are to NBS Mohammed bin Salman by extension, the level of deniability he has. It comes in the pages of the New York Times. David Kirkpatrick is on the byline. He's also the author of into the hands of the soldiers, freedom and chaos in Egypt and the Middle East. Dave, what can you tell us about these four suspects and their connections to crown prince Mohammad bin Salman. Whether it's really by suspects of interest here, four of them, we have identified as security men essentially the travel with crown prince Mohammad. So basically, these are members of his security detail who Turks officials have also said, flew into is temporal in participated in what they say is the killing of Jamal for showing in addition, the fifth one is the now famous forensics doctor who brought his bone saw to the to the events in the consulate with a. The notion the president put forward yesterday. This was done by quote, rogue killers. Does that make any sense given what you're learning? I mean, if if the close security personnel, the crown prince are there and you know, the top friends surgeon is shown up with a bone saw flying in on a private jet. That doesn't sound like a rogue operation. It becomes harder and harder to believe because you you when you realized that these guys at least one of these guys. We have photographic evidence that he is with the crown prince again and again in city after city, you know, looking on a like a goon really. And so you have to picture these guys saying, hey boss, I'm going to be gone for a few days. I'm gonna go over to Istanbul. The take care that they would Shoghi. How does he not know it's very hard to believe, and yet that's what we're told the Saudis are going to try to suggest and this forensic doctor. I mean, one typically. I don't think brings friends Dr to an interrogation. Yes. Sometimes people wanna have a doctor president at interrogation, but not one with a bone saw. Yeah, that's yes. You might think, well, you bring along doctor in case the person you're questioning needs medical care, but this doctor specialty is people who are already dead. And in fact there dismemberment so it's, it is stringent as you say. He's a high ranking figure in the Saudi medical establishment. He may have been the foremost forensic specialists in all of Saudi Arabia. So not just any old person in the security services could recruit him from mission like this. Can you just explain what exactly the connections are between these suspects that end and a crown prince having you said that that several of them you've identified as close like a close protection security detail that travels with the crown prince. Yes, that's right. And we've done that in different ways. The most interesting one is mister moot, traveling of who we found in photographs with the crown prince. You know, he's getting on planes with him in Paris and Madrid, and he's in Houston and Boston, and at the United Nations when the crown prince is also there. Interestingly enough, a few years ago, he was listed as a diplomat at the Saudi embassy in London, probably a cover for intelligence operative of some kind of others. We've corroborated in various ways, one through an individual human source of professional in France of knew him as a member of the security detail. Another one from a news reports in Saudi Arabia that described promotion in the Royal guard and a third through a combination of things, including a kind of a database of phone numbers and phone identification. In Saudi Arabia. It's fascinating, David Proctor, I appreciate it. Thank you too. Thanks a lot. Well, now how all this new reporting and all these new developments are being received at the White House. You know, Jim Acosta is there for us tonight. So Jim, the president tweeting and talking about dramatic a lot today, what what's the latest. That's right Anderson and perhaps the most profound thing that happened today in terms of how the the White House was was finding all of this is when the president spoke with the AP earlier this afternoon, and the president was asked about what he thinks in terms of how the Saudis have handled all of this and the president is essentially leaping to the defense of the Saudi kingdom saying, here we go again, in his words, the Associated Press with you're guilty until proven innocent. The president went on to say Anderson during that interview with the a p that he sees the Saudis and sort of the same way he sees report nominee now supreme court Justice, Brad Cavanaugh, who face those allegations of sexual assault. The president essentially saying that the Saudis can relate to Brad Kavanagh. However, you're supposed to make sense of that. I suppose that's up to the viewer, but that's how the president made the comparison. He also said that he spoke with the Saudi of the Saudis earlier today, the Saudi Crown prince and tweeted that this Audis are totally denying all of this. Once again, accepting their denials. The prisoners vote to the crown Princess are rated, do we know much more about about that conversation? And because also searchers, Mike Pompeo was in was in Riyadh today and is heading to encore tomorrow. That's right. The president tweeted that he spoke with the Saudi Crown crown prince Mohammad bin Salman while he was with the secretary of state, Mike Pompeo there in Riyadh in that essentially, what Mohammed bin Salman reiterates Mike Pompeo. He reiterated to the president. The president says, Mohammed bin Salman told him that he had no knowledge of these events that took place at the at the Saudi consulate in Turkey Anderson. What's more is we should point out. Mike Pompeo told reporters according to a readout of of the secretary of state's comments. I think this is interesting. He said during each of today's beatings of Saudi leadership, strongly denied any knowledge of what took place in their consulate Anderson. The secretary of state went on to say, my assessment from these meetings is that there is a serious commitment to determine all the facts and ensure accountability, including accountability for Saudi Arabia's, senior leaders, it it is rather breathtaking that the secretary of state would make that kind of comment Anderson given the fact that the Saudis have. Have been lying about all of this for the past week and a half to two weeks. Keep in mind they were putting out statements Anderson is we've talked about denying any responsibility whatsoever, having any knowledge or any ties to what happened whatsoever that is that is starting to fall apart as a story for the Saudi government and the secretary of state when he was down there appear to be taking their word for it. It is. It is starting to sound like no matter what the Saudi government says, this White House, this administration sort of taking their word for it and Anderson we should point out. That's not why we don't go back to the comparison have on that is not where a lot of Republicans are up on Capitol Hill right now. Lindsey, Graham Senator from South Carolina who was on board with president, Brad Kavanagh is not when it comes to the Saudi government and he wants to see the Saudis give more answers than what they're giving right now. Anderson. Yeah, Jim Acosta priest from the White House. Thanks again, our breaking news raises the question of whether this new account of disappearances a true one or a cover story. And the president's handling this is of course subject unto itself here to talk about all of it is Mike Duran, senior. Rector of the national Security Council under President, George W Bush former c. i. officer, Bob Baier in Washington, Post columnist max boot. Recent author of the new book, the corrosion of conservatism, why I left the right mex-. It seems like there's two separate issues here. There's what the US should do about this, which maybe we'll get to a little bit in a moment, but just in terms of what actually occurred and trying to aspertain what actually occurred. I'm the Saudis, their initial story clearly was not true. They were. They were saying, this man left the the the and they had no knowledge of what happened to him after that. It seems like that that has changed. Do you buy this notion? If if their story is going to be that this was a an interrogation that just went bad that a guy die while being interrogated. Does that make much sense to you? Given what we know thus far about who some of these people involved were? No, I mean, this this cover up doesn't make any sense Anderson. It's clear that the Saudis have been lying like crazy. And they're trying to figure out how to get out of it and they're floating. These lame cover stories claiming it was an interrogation. I got out of control as if it's okay to kidnap and torture a journalist, and that's somehow makes makes it just fine or claiming that it was road killers when we know that the people who are involved as was just being reported or actually very close to the crown prince. I'm b. s the only thing that's more incredible than the Saudi cover stories is the fact that Donald Trump and Mike Pompeo are pretending to believe what the Saudis are saying. I mean, this is the most embarrassing appeasement of a dictator since the Helsinki summit in July Mike. In your opinion, does it make? Is it possible that the crown prince Mohammad bin salon, who is the power who had detained people in the Ritz Carlton, you know, Saudi officials, even some members of the Royal family for some time would not have had knowledge if in fact, some people involved in his close protection detail. One of the top forensic surgeons in the country who's affiliated with the government was involved in this. I would find it unlikely, but I would also like to notice skepticism about everything that we've heard because most of our information about what what happened there is coming from the Turkish security services and Turkey has very bad relations with Saudi Arabia and his crew using this to get gained some advantage over them. I think the the Saudis probably played into their hands in in this regard, but I don't think we know exactly what happened inside the consulate. I, I think that I think that's absolutely true. And and you know, they're the some of the stuff is publishing a pro Turkish government newspaper that reporting about the the the, you know, the the apple watch Bobby discounted that or early on as being probably some sort of cover story for perhaps Turkish intelligence bugging the the consulate, Bob, the reporting from the New York Times, at least several of the suspects were part of the crown prince's entourage. Is there any scenario in European Underwood's the crown prince would know what happened Anderson? No, he runs the country. He runs the police, the ministry of interior, the security services, anybody who's not loyal to him has been removed. They're no separate power centers, including in the national guard. He clearly, I mean, it's almost certain that he ordered this, whether it went wrong or not. We still don't know agree with Mike. But what we do know is the evidence so far that they've produced the pictures of the. Planes arriving, the painting of the consulate, the fifteen that come in the the Saudis have provided no sculpture. Tori evidence to suggest these people were terse as they're claiming. That's just silly. I mean, seriously Anderson. You don't get better evidence than this and for the president to say, it's a rogue operation. I, frankly, he's covering up murder and so's Pompeii when we should worry about that. Because if this goes without any, you know punishment of Saudi Arabia, we're going to see other dictators doing the same thing, whether it's Russia or any other country. Mike, do you think this is covering up murder? I think that other countries are doing things like this. We know what the the Russians did in in in in Britain. And the most important thing for us is to think about what our strategic interests are and where we want this thing to come out in in the end. And I would hate if we rushed in a fit of righteousness and. Took action against Saudi Arabia that that endangered our larger strategic interests in the region. And the number one interest is in my view containing Iran, we've got the sanctions on Iran coming coming due on November. Fourth, we need the Saudis to help us substitute their oil for Iranian oil around the globe. There are massive interests involved here and to rush on the basis of this horrible event. And I don't mean to suggest it isn't horrible and and destabilize Saudi Arabia or imperil our relations with them, I think would be a mistake. You know, actually, what about that? I'm double doubles. Bargains are made all the time in the world of, you know, real politics around the world is this one of those cases where the the larger interests of of our country and Saudi Arabia mandate turning a blind eye? No, we should not sacrifice. Jamal kashogi on the altar of you. Saudi relations. The Trump administration has already made a grave error by giving NBS a young man with very little knowledge and very little judgment and how he conducts fares, basically, a blank check to do whatever he wants, including kidnapping, the prime minister of Lebanon, including bombing Yemen, including blockading cutter, the crown prince's made a lot of mistakes. We need to hold them accountable because it's pretty clear that he was responsible for this operation. And that doesn't mean we're going to break with Saudi Arabia, but remember NBS has only been crowned prince last year. There are a lot of other Princess who could easily take place who are not implicated in this murder. And if Donald Trump does not insist that there is some accountability for this murder of an American resident in American journalists that will send a very grave message to the world at sends a message that the United States is abdicating its moral authority and beat. It actually sends a message a weakness on the part of Donald Trump because he is reinforcing the message that he bullies the week. People like stormy Daniels or Christine, Blasi Ford. But at the same time he. Simple and cowers before the strong, whether it's Kim Jong, honor Vladimir Putin or m b s? That is not a message. The president of the United States should be sending Anderson. I want to pick up this conversation. We gotta take a quick break. We'll also get reaction to the breaking news from Kuchis editor what colleagues and the Washington Post make of the latest reporting and the war. Some pretty ugly words between President Trump and stormy Daniels, which max just re reference would each is now calling the other ahead on three sixty. You know what's not smart job sites that overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes, but you know what is smart, ZipRecruiter dot com slash DD see, unlike other job sites, ZipRecruiter doesn't wait for candidates to find you Zip Recruiter finds them for you. It's powerful matching technology scans, thousands of resumes identifies people with the right skills, education, and experience and actively invites them to apply. So you get qualified candidates fast, no more sorting through the wrong resumes. No more waiting for the right candidates to apply. It's no wonder that ZipRecruiter is rated number one by employers in the US. This rating comes from hiring sites on trust pilot with over one thousand reviews. And right now, listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive web address, ZipRecruiter dot com. Slash d d c. that's ZipRecruiter, dot com. Slash c. ZipRecruiter dot com. Slash DC ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. A breaking news, new account of dramatic Shukshis disappearance and presumed killing three sources familiar with the case, say that it was intended to be a Saudi mission to interrogate impossibly duct him that something went wrong. He died and it was poorly covered up. Now earlier today, CBS news is Earl Burnett, found himself on a flight with Jared Kushner, who reportedly has a close relationship with the Saudi Crown. Prince tried to ask them about Saudi Royal families, denial involvement in cook, she's disappearance and that didn't go well. CBS on. Don't put. Secret service agents blocking Burnitz phone people, Washington Post one answers as well as Jamal cook. She worked joining us for reactions. The breaking news is his editor post global opinions editor, Karen t. Karen doesn't make any sense to you given all this new information, why the United States isn't taking any real action on this yet or why the administration seems to be at least publicly buying Saudi Arabia's version of events here. You know, all we can at least hope for and pushed for here. The post is that the administration take this seriously and the administration pushed their Saudi counterparts advisor Saudi counterparts to give us the truth thing and and to give us the truth as quickly as possible of the reporting that the Saudis suspected ha having ties to cut our and that that may have been why they wanted to interrogate him or at least in part to your knowledge, did he have any ties with cutter. I mean to my knowledge, I, I don't know about that. I think that ultimately sto this is a case of a journalist who all he wanted to do is to write the truth as he saw it who was who went into Saudi consulate and never came back regardless of views. Regardless of ties anything that he wrote, at least with me at the Washington Post was patriotic to Saudi Arabia was evoked a sense of wanting Saudi Arabia to be better was a man who wanted to advise the young Saudi Crown prince. He loved his country as so, you know, reports of of smearing him as some sort of trader, I think is grossly unfair and distracts from the question of what happened to him and what we're demanding from the Saudis as far as answers and truth. And certainly just in terms of, you know what the Saudis have said and may say, I mean, there were, you know, we're this reporting from from several sources that they may say that this was an interrogation gone bad. I mean, even if this, if that becomes a story that they were trying to interrogate him and bring him back to Saudi Arabia, that in itself is just, I mean, even if it's true, it's just startling that they would be grabbing somebody who enters their consulate, interrogating that person with his plan and then trying to bring them back to to Saudi Arabia. Right. I find this notion that that is somehow more acceptable. I find it ridiculous and still, frankly, a bit disgusting. It's still kidnapping. And if we say interrogation, if the interrogation was so violent that it causes death. I mean, that sounds like torture and that's still a flagrant violation of international. Shnell law. And you know, for you know, an interrogation to to have a team to have a bone saw present during an interrogation or to to fly in a team with the an autopsy forensics expert. You know to me doesn't sound like a team that expected to bring back somebody alive. So, but regardless, I think a horrific crime happened to Jamal castrucci and we need answers or fighting like hell here for answers. Okay, on our procedure time. Thank you. Thank you Anderson. I want to go back now to Mike Duran. Bob Baer and max boot Bob. Mike made a, you know, a valid point which is there are, you know, strategic concerns. There are national security concerns. There's a relationship, larger relationship with Saudi Arabia. Max was saying, you know, something has to be done. Where do you stand on this? If if we do essentially, if the US essentially, you know, turns aside and and accepts whatever the Saudis come up with. Is that acceptable? Well, first of all, I agree with Mike Saudi stability should be foremost in our national security interests. If that country went under, it would be a complete disaster for us in the world and the Gulf and everybody else, the Royal family there is no substitute. No one else can govern that country, but worries me is you have a king who's clearly incompetent. If you let his son go ahead with this, he either has. Alzheimer's or as he's got some sort of dementia and his son that doesn't know what he's doing. Resting Lebanese Prime Minister head of state holding it for two weeks. Seizing. His property is a flagrant violation of international law. It's Saudis its way out of their character. So we have two people on the throne who are very, very dangerous. And if I were sitting in the White House, I would find a way to talk the Saudis into getting rid of them. This has happened before in the sixties when it king hit, lost his mind and King Faisal came in and and took over and removed them. And I think frankly, that's one needs to happen now, Mike, what do you think about about that essentially separating, you know, relationship with Saudi Arabia from relationship with NBS? No, I think that history has taught us that it's dangerous for the United States to think that it can micromanage the states of the Middle East, and we start reaching into other countries and saying, who can rule and who can't rule. We're going to get a lot of consequences that that we don't intend. So I would I would counsel caution. I, I would want to find out what exactly happened. And then I would want to try to work with the NBS and the Saudi government to get a more stable policy process and to get more reliable partner. Part of the reason that that that they have become somewhat erotic is that they're in a completely new environment with the rise of Iran all across the all across the region, which was we have to be honest facilitated by the policy of the United States. So we have kind of created this unstable environment around them, and we're not, they're giving them the guiding hand we have in the past. I think we have to understand the broader strategic context here we're not good. No, go ahead. No, I was just gonna ask you under. There's understanding the broader strategic context as my talking about. There's others concerns that if there are no ramifications for this, then then it gives other autocratic rulers kind of encouragement to, you know, kidnap reporters in their consulates in torture people and and the US isn't going to do anything about it. That's exactly right Anderson. Donald Trump has basically given every tyrant on the planet, a license to kill. I mean, just on Sunday on the sixty minutes interview, he was asked about what Putin does which includes trying to kill dissidents in Great Britain and and Donald Trump base. If he said, well, it's not in our country. So you know, he doesn't care. This basically gives a license to the worst elements on the world. And I think is contrary to American interests and I would sight to you. The example of Ronald Reagan who did not look the other way when American allies and the Philippines are El Salvador or South Korea were committing human rights abuses when there was a people power revolution against Marcos and eighty six. Reagan sided. The protesters, and I think that's something we need to keep in mind in the case of Saudi Arabia. We can keep our alliance with Saudi Arabia, but I agree with Bob, I don't. I don't see how NBS stays as crown prince after this erotic reckless and humane behavior. Next boot, Mike Duran, Bob era. Appreciate a good discussion. President Trump did not have anything on his public schedule today. And one of the first tweets of the day was a an attack against Daniels after he judge's decision yesterday dismissed her defamation lawsuit against him. We'll tell you what the president said, what she said and the fallout just ahead. Support for Anderson Cooper, three sixty comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by Quicken Loans. Let's talk about buying a home for a minute because of rising interest rates. There's a lot of unpredictability when it comes to buying a home these days, it's causing a lot of anxiety with folks. Well, our friends at Quicken Loans are doing something about that. They're calling it, the power buying process. Here's how it works. Quicken Loans will verify your income assets and credit in less than twenty four hours to give you a verified approval. This gives you the strength of a cash buyer. Then once you're verified, you qualify for their all new exclusive rate shield approval. I, they'll lock your rate for up to ninety days while you shop. Now, here's the best part. If rates go up your rate stays the same. But if rates go down your rate also drops either way you win. It's the kind of thinking you'd expect from America's largest mortgage lender to get started. Go to rocket mortgage dot com slash a. c. three sixty rate shield approval only valid on certain thirty year purchase. Is actions. Additional conditions or exclusions may apply based on Quicken Loans, data in comparison to public data records equal housing lender licensed in all fifty states and MLS consumeraccess dot org. Number thirty thirty. Quick viewer alert this next segment contain some graphic language. So if you have kids in the room, you might ask them to step out for bid. It has to do with the president and stormy Daniels, the woman who claims she had sex with Donald Trump just months after his wife Melania Trump had given birth to their son. The president denies having an affair yesterday, defamation lawsuit against President Trump brought by Daniels in her Turney. My club Nadi was dismissed by federal judge. So early this morning, the president went on the tax over Twitter quote, federal judge throws out stormy Daniels lawsuit versus Trump Trump is entitled to full legal fees. He wrote citing Fox News. He went on great, he continued now I can go after horseface and her third Ray lawyer in the great state of Texas. She will confirm the letter. She signed. She knows nothing about me a total con- presume United States called her horseface. Now, before I tell you how MS Daniels responded, you should not recently released a book in which she details quite graphically her alleged sexual encounter with Mr. Trump. With some very personal descriptions of him without about with that out of the way here goes, she responded, quote, ladies and gentlemen, may I present your president in addition to his shortcomings, he has demonstrated his incompetence hatred of women and lack of control on Twitter again, and perhaps a pension for bestiality game on tiny, happy Tuesday evening. So just tonight, in that interview, the president was asked about the use of his word horseface. He told the AP quote, you can take it any way you want joining me as a former adviser to several presidents who didn't have Twitter, David, Gergen, and USA today columnists Cureton powers. So curious when the prison says, you can take the horse phase comment any way you want. I'm not sure what other way there is to take it other than as an insult, right? It's obviously supposed to be an insult. And I think a lot of people would say, well, he insults a lot of people. He, you know, makes up names for men, you know, our low or or jab or or whatever it is. But I. I think the attacks on women's appearances, which she has a long history of is different, and it's different because men are not as affected by attacks on their appearance because men are not as valued for their appearances as they as women are in our society. And so it's a very, I, it's it's a much more harmful personal attack for a woman to receive that kind of attack. And I think that he knows that and I think that it's particularly humiliating in a way that it isn't for a man. And so you can look at a stormy Daniels and say, well, she doesn't have a horseface. She's actually a beautiful woman, but so what if she did you know that that's the point the point is you don't have to be a beautiful woman, but in in in the the world that Donald Trump lives in, you actually do have to be a beautiful woman. And if you aren't a beautiful woman, then you're not valuable and you don't matter. Dude, I mean, did you ever think you'd see the president United States call the woman whom he allegedly had an affair with horseface. I mean, I, it's called never call anybody calling anybody horseface. I think it's a sad night, embarrassing for the country Anderson. I, we've got this cover up that's emerging with regard to the Saudi situation. And now this, this, this craziness of the yet another insult. I don't know what the totals are, but I think that he is now publicly insulted just about as many women as have accused him of sexual misconduct. It's a close call, which one which which bucket has more people in it, but he continues to do this. I, I agree with Pearson, absolutely. That he goes after looks more than anything else. But he also talks about people's low IQ q. He did that against a minority woman. You know, he talked about people bleeding and where that's coming from, and you know, sort of like what you sort of gasping, you know, you have to encourage people to leave. I, I don't know there's any. This is. Just what where we are as people, I don't know that he's ever going to change we. He is what he is, and it's embarrassing in, but some people still like him because he's got a good economy. I, you know, it's a, it's a very, very odd tradeoff these days. Yeah, I just want to play some of the things that can they Trump has said particularly about about women that some of the David reference. Let's just play this. So you can see there was blood coming out of her eyes blood coming out of her wherever she would not be my first choice that I can tell. You don't know, that would not be my first choice also said about Carly Fiorina, quote, look at that face. Would anyone vote for that retweeted photo comparing how crews to Maloney Trump in an unfavorable way? It's, I mean. P cursing people. It's become normal that this happens and this is what the president United States does, and there are plenty of people, you know, at a rally who laugh and applaud and are right there with it. Women included. Yeah. Yeah. It's typical not normal and but yeah, it's become something that we've become used to hearing. And I think that the reason you see just it's not just men her laughing at it. There are women that are laughing at us because of what I was saying before, I think that this is very ingrained in our consciousness and the way we think about things. The idea that women's highest value comes from the way that they look or the idea that they're not as smart as man. So they have a low I q or if you're a racist person that you believe that a black person has a lower IQ. He is tapping into things that people think and and I and unfortunately people are going to get mad at me for saying that Trump. Reporter Trump supporters, think this way. Well, all I can say is, why are you laughing at this? Why are you supporting this? Because people who find it totally repugnant and recognize it for what it is, don't support him and don't want to be associated with him. Well, there's a basic lack of manners. Yeah, Dave Gergen, Pearson powers, appreciate it. Thank you. That's back to our breaking news on the missing Washington Post columnist President Trump claims. He has no financial interest in Saudi Arabia, no reasons to be sympathetic to them. We'll check out that claim when we come back. You know what's not smart job sites that overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes, but you know what is mart? ZipRecruiter dot com slash AC three sixty. Unlike other job sites, ZipRecruiter doesn't wait for candidates to find you. ZipRecruiter finds them for you. It's powerful matching technology scans, thousands of resumes identifies people with the right skills, education and experience for your job and actively invites them to apply. So you get qualified candidates fast, no more sorting through the wrong resumes. No more waiting for the right candidates to apply. It's no wonder that ZipRecruiter is rated number one by employers in the US this rating comes from hiring sites on trust pilot with over a thousand reviews. And right now listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive web address ZipRecruiter dot com. Slash AC three sixty. That's ZipRecruiter dot com. Slash a. c. three sixty ZipRecruiter dot com. Slash AC three sixty ZipRecruiter the smartest way. Way to hire. Returning to our breaking news on Jamal Shukshis fade in President Trump's complained that the Saudis are being assumed guilty until proven innocent earlier today, the president tweeted about what some have reported a complicating factor in this whole affair. Namely his multimillion dollar financial ties over the years to various Saudi citizens. But here's what the president tweeted quote for the record. I have no financial interest in Saudi Arabia or Russia for that matter. And he's suggestion that I have is just more fake news of which there is plenty. No financial interest in Saudi Arabia is the key line there. What he doesn't mention is the millions he's gotten from more than a handful of Saudis, CNN business and political correspondent Cristina Alexi. Saudi Arabia, and I get along great with all of they buy apartments from me. This spend forty million fifty million my supposed to dislike them. I like them very much Trump's financial ties with the Saudis date back to the nineteen ninety s in nine hundred ninety. One when one of his casino projects was faltering under a mountain of debt, a Saudi prince purchase Trump's two hundred eighty one square foot yacht for the hefty price of twenty million dollars ten years later, public record show Trump sold the forty fifth floor of his Trump world tower in New York to the kingdom of Saudi Arabia for four point, five million dollars in recent years since Trump took office, his hotels have benefited from Saudi business between October twenty sixteen and March twenty seventeen. A Saudi lobbying firm paid Trump's Washington DC hotel more than two hundred seventy thousand dollars for food and accommodations. We don't know really very much about his efforts to open other properties in Saudi Arabia. We don't who is. Earners would have been, we don't who would finance them and we don't know if you could restart them again down the road. Trump's Manhattan hotel on central park, west solids, revenue increase during the first quarter of twenty eighteen in part because of a visit from Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin Salman according to a letter obtained by the Washington Post in the letter. The hotel's general manager wrote that been so men didn't stay at the hotel himself, but said, due to our close industry relationships, we were able to accommodate many of the accompanying travelers. Of course, the public doesn't know the full extent of Trump's business ties to the kingdom because he is not release his tax returns or other financial information would certainly be very easy for foreign officials or people close to them to drop a whole lot of money without us knowing about it unless or until we see the business records and conceivably tax returns as well. We do know from his 2016 financial disclosure. Trump had one hundred and forty four registered companies with dealings in more than two dozen countries. Eight of them were Saudi related companies. All of those companies have since been dissolved returnable situation as the cries for the president to take action against Saudi Arabia grow louder. Americans are left to wonder what's driving Trump's decisions. Now, of course, the larger political question is, are, is this relationship or these business deals part of the president's consideration when it makes decisions about how to go forward. Christina. What's the Trump organization saying about this Trump's spokesperson responded in a statement to me Anderson saying like many global real estate companies. We have explored opportunities in many markets that said, we don't have any plans for expansion into Saudi Arabia, but Anderson when I pressed further and asked about Saudi purchases of Trump condos or hotels days, I did not get a response Anderson, Christina washy. Appreciate it. Thanks. I want to check in with Chris, what he's working on for prompt time. Chris, all we got good stuff for you tonight. My friend Anderson even you're gonna have to smile for there. It is. So we're gonna be talking about what's going on with Saudi Arabia and the president's disposition toward it that it's like Cavanaugh. He's guilty until proven innocent. Why would he say that? Why would he call a woman horseface what is going on? And of course, the big headline about Donald Trump our president saying that Michael Cohen, his former personal attorney lied what. An interesting position when he has to know Anderson. I'm a command away from playing a tape that proves that he is lying and we'll do that tonight. All right. I'll be listening five minutes from now. Chris. Thanks very much endorsement. Yes, I'm government there. You had me you had me at Hello. Up next more serious stuff that the death toll from hurricane, Michael, it has risen in Florida. I wanna tell you about that just had the very latest from region where more than one hundred and thirty thousand customers are still without power right now. Hello, everyone I'm unleash malaria and the host of the film struck podcast. A show for love is of great cinema on the latest episode. Oscar nominated screenwriter and director Temer Jenkins tells me about her film private life, which is partly based on her own struggles with facility and how it took her some time to see the entertainment value in the story. I had a friend who when I would tell her my stories about what was happening from, you know, like a girlfriend confident. She said, you should write this stuff down and she said, because it would be good material for movie. And I said, I have to. That's never going to happen. Of course, I did. And here I am talking make sure to subscribe and listen on apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or whatever else you get your podcasts. It's more grim news out of Florida tonight to tell you about a thirty said the death toll there has now reached nineteen as more people continue to be discovered in the wake of hurricane, Michael discovered that dozen of those alone were in bay county, which took the brunt of the storm across four southern states. Twenty nine people are now confirmed dead most of the residents of hard head. Mexico beach haven't yet been able to turn to see what's left of their homes that's going to change tomorrow. Wayne residents are going to be allowed back in more than one hundred thirty. Eight thousand customers are still without power in Florida. Quick reminder, here's your chance to pick the stories that we cover. You can join us for full circle which is our interactive daily newscast airing on Facebook, you can see weeknights at six, twenty five pm eastern Facebook dot com. Slash Anderson Cooper full circle. If you haven't watched it yet. Check out. It's a lot of fun. The news continues right now when a handed over Chris got a great show Cuomo prime time starts. Now, Chris, are you interested in learning how enterprise scale companies drive. Organic traffic to increase their online visibility than download the voices of search podcast. From the heart of Silicon Valley here, search metrics Inc, CEO Jordan Kuni as he delivers actionable insights into how was data to navigate the ever changing blends gave of Google apple, pin Emerson, the voices of search podcast arm search engine marketers, and business analysts with the latest news and insights. 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Let It Roll: The Pre-Punk Seventies - Ed Ward's History Of Rock & Roll

Rock N Roll Archaeology

1:00:38 hr | 10 months ago

Let It Roll: The Pre-Punk Seventies - Ed Ward's History Of Rock & Roll

"Welcome to let it roll the podcast about how and why popular music happens hosted by Nate Wilcox. Follow the leader role podcast on twitter at let it roll cast, and check out our website at let it roll podcast dot com. Let it? Roll is a Pantheon podcast, and you can listen to all the other Great Penn podcasts at www dot campion podcasts dot, com. Today Edward and nate talk about the bloating of the music business in the early seventies in the feeling that everyone was waiting on something to happen. Pop in those ear buds and enjoy. It's time to let it roll I'm your host Nate Wilcox and I'm very happy. Welcoming Back Ed Ward for the final chapter of our discussion series on the history of rock and roll volume, two, nineteen, sixty, four to nineteen, seventy, seven, the Beatles, stones, and the rise of Classic Rock Ed Welcome back. Good be here. And, so you titled Chapter Eight Waiting For the renaissance, and it's got a picture of the New York dolls in chapter header, and you cry. This quarter attributed to banks. What's he talking about? Well. You know. You're at this point was. Living in Detroit and working for Cream magazine and cream was the snotty teenage start to Rolling Stones Granville, man and Lester believed that a lot of. A lot of what was being hyped whether establishment was. Not really rock and roll. It wasn't really useful it was. It was just product and. A lot of people agreed with which is one reason. Cream was was such a a successful magazine at the time, but. The idea that this wasn't rock and roll this plotting. A lyric oriented. Slowed down music was was not. What. We Jordan. What we had planned for as teenagers you know grew up. What is it to have some complexity true to our? To Our music, but Really. A rethink was necessary, and that's what Lester was talking about it was. The idea that things were reaching a lot of different kinds of dead ends, and it was assigned to shake it up a little bit, and let's talk a little bit more about the music. The business of journalism any you summed it up. Basically we've got rolling stone out of San, Francisco, which is a big tabloid side size magazine that is very ensconced with the new rock and roll establishment, and by seventy, four, seventy five. This is a big establishment. They are selling gazillions of records. Concerts, their stadium tours now bans like crosby stills Nash and young, and led Zeppelin Even Z. Top are packing stadiums the Beatles. Old Records are being shattered all the time, and this is big big money FM. Radio is on talk, rock and roll getting on TV, and we'll talk about that in a minute, but I think it's important to emphasize for people in Twenty Twenty when magazines are at best an afterthought. How important magazines were in the seventies and cream is a slick smaller magazine that I can remember seeing you know at seven elevens and gas stations. It owned the field. There was really nobody else talking about hard rock and roll at the time. And there was no social media then. I mean nowadays if you're. If you've got an enthusiasm, you can post it on twitter and facebook and instagram and everything. There really was. A feeling that. People needed to be in touch with each other, and so a magazine was the cheap and dirty way to do that. And that's why there are so many rock wagons. It wasn't just creaming rolling stone there was. Many many times have been. Thankfully Forgotten liceu world name rock magazines zoo, world's he did. Yes. There was circus magazine. Weird sort of semi teeny BOP magazine and Yeah, that's correction is I remember circus and it was like a slightly dumber version of cream, but I. Frequently I at the time thought they were published by the same people. The way that my pro wrestling magazines had two different versions that came out in alternating weeks, and it was only later when I got older that I realized. There's an enormous gulf between what was going on at cream and circus was doing. and. It's also the recruit New York. DETROIT! Yes! Detroit were inordinately proud of their roxy up there and and they they were contributing something to the national conversation which they were. Yes, and that's that's the same that we talked about in previous episodes it really I. Don't know you can say. It started with the MC five of the grand ballroom, but that definitely brought to a head, but then produced a series of acts Ted. NUGENT amboise Dukes. Alice Cooper although he came from California Arizona. He broke big intimate West, grand funk railroad broke big in the Midwest they had established a really sort of meat and potatoes, rock and roll style, and were making an impact, but I'm glad you brought up New York. Because two of the most important acts of this period are coming out of new. York, coming from Kinda similar places, surprisingly in retrospect, headed very very different destinations. I'm talking about kiss and the New York Dolls Right they were. Well See. Having Roxie scene in New York was something of A. An Innovation New York had not. Had a good live music scene because of the Cabaret Laws You de Cavalry Card in order to. Appear. In a places served alcohol, and the cops were really news. The York Police Department the issues cards, and and they were going to keep things pure. There's a famous story about so on this monk riding in a car with bud. Powell but Powell, gets. PULLED OVER COPS Discovered, the he is in possession. Powell is in possession of. Of? Heroin and Locke crews in possession of nothing except Miss Talent. Loses Cavalry Card. He's, but he's just about every nickel he made. Trying to get. His cabaret card back just so you play piano in a bar. And so this was obviously not an attractive root for a rock musicians. Your no clubs I mean it was something of A. Of a Revolutionary Act. A bunch of old fogies like the loving spoonful to have a gig at the night owl, which is bar in Greenwich Village where they played amplified music. And you had some other bands in the suburbs like Vanilla Fudge and others that came out of the Greater New York, the rascals under the rascals came out of that same suburban long. Island scene, but when the New York. Dolls start doing gigs at the Mercer Arts Center. It's a very different approach. Well, you know what that's all about is having a music scene in Manhattan, the bridge and tunnel people. That's one thing. I'm in that. That scene has always been there and was continuing to be there. You twisted sister in your in your. List of bridge and tunnel bands I mean they had an immense fan base. RUSSA's surprised to find that out that a friend of mine made a a film about twisters. Just that ends at the moment. They get their big recording contract. Yeah, and and other bands like the dictators that come along this a little after the New York dolls followed that route to, but the dolls are in Manhattan and they're also. Almost unique among American at this time, very hip to the glam scene. That's going on in England. Well also were too, but. That's how I was trying to. The dolls were the ones that were they leaders of American Glam. You you you never Indo. Into and how they were dressed just by listen to other records their records. You know sound like in the greatest tradition rolling stones. Absolutely and as a kid I can remember milder brother, who is probably a high school, freshman or sophomore, and a diligent raider of cream and circus, coming home one weekend with the first aerosmith album, and the first New, York dolls album, and at the time they seemed exactly like very contemporary here or two bands, playing hard rock and roll modelled on the rolling stones. The same fans are going to be into him, but history shows that their fan base is took very different paths, and I love how you describe the new. York dolls as Becoming yet another in a series of very influential failures. Right, exactly what they were they, they didn't really solid records at all. and their management was completely. Disastrous the rhetoric company didn't know what to do with the the. And the of the fans didn't either because they The dressing up. Factor. Serve. Miss misdirected the fans it absolutely did and and I know from personal experience in the Texas, panhandle well into the eighties. When my redneck heavy metal friends would see and I'm a redneck to I'm using that You know I'm entitled to that Slur, but. They would see that album cover, and totally reject the New York dolls, even if they were slightly may be open to some hard rock, sounding punk, but just a couple of years later poison comes along in his openly dressing in drag, and thereby knows cassettes by the million. Right well. They. They learned the industry learn how to market. Maybe a little better, and also because of video of another. Yes, and we should mention that the New York, dolls heroin problems were also a big a detriment to their career, but let's hear a little bit of the New York. Dolls jet boy I out. Ever this. A. New York dolls jet boy from my dollar. They're out the AUTISTS. The peak apotheosis the peak of new. York Dolls Dome, David. Johannesen vocals Johnny Thunders on Lead Guitar so vain on rhythm killer. Kane on Bass Jerry. Nolan drums I. Don't know why I'm giving them the full. Shout out, but I just love the new. York dolls in AD definitely don't think they got attention that. That they deserved some of that due to their own fault, but kiss is another a group of young musicians an in New York City, and these guys are sharp I mean. Gene Simmons is riding his graduate thesis on Kabuki Theater and black face, and how to incorporate that potentially into a rock and roll act when he sees the New York dolls. It all falls into place. In the DOWSE had. Even auditioned Peter Christly Kisses Drummer. And rejected them when they needed to replace original drummer. but his. I don't know. Kiss was smart in they. Didn't promote themselves as a New York phenomena the name of the New York. Dolls tells you exactly who they're who they thought they were. They were from New York, but kiss had their eyes on a bigger price I think and although they weren't particularly. Skilled as musicians they were. They had something. that. Attracted vast quantities of people. and. They had a record of new head Arouse Perot that and that was Casa. Blanca, which is making big money and disco, but took time out to invest in kiss, and it was a hall. The first three albums came out to very little attention in my older brother, the rock and roll snob was indicates and tell they got popular with kiss alive, and and just blew the doors off, and that's when me and my third grade friends became devoted members of the kiss army I mean any gen-xer male of that era is overwhelmingly likely to have a passionate on this kiss from their child. Right but see. Kiss was They were really slandered by the Rock press in a rolling stone. Wouldn't give them the time of day. And that's that's what cream picked up on was answer. was these were? They were dolls. You know they they were. Funny looking things you could. Really relate to as as. As an act as opposed to just a bunch of guys in you know flannel shirts and jeans. Staring at their shoes and moaning about miserable, they were. Absolutely and I sold mine. You summarize for the State of the Industry and seventy five, and he talk about the way that even though there hits their hit singles and hit albums and they're selling a Lotta records. There's no real dominant sound in this period. The number one albums don't set top as long as they had in seventy, three, seventy, four, definitely, not nineteen, seventy and same with the singles. There's just a sort of Malays on the. Right, and that's what lesser. intuited that if. Anything shook that up. That it would, it would rule it just completely. Take over. And he wasn't quite correct. Could it was? It was a good insight. Yes there's definitely something comment just around the corner takeover. It's definitely GONNA, make its mark. Let's talk about a couple of pieces of unfinished business from the last episode that I wanted to get to didn't and the first is what was going on with soul. Re talked a lot about funk and and. Jazz fusion and many other forms of African American music a couple episodes ago, but we left out people like bill withers. What's gone on at Motown and gamble and Huff in Philly? Right. Gamble have had a long history of. Doing. Record production and and. Helping out, Philadelphia, bands, and finally they. They joined together. As a business partnership and got themselves. A label. And with the money that they got for that, they were assemble a really amazing house grand. which provided them with their own sound you? Could you tell a gamble? And how production immediately when you heard it on the radio and you did your radio because they were able to move a whole lot of records. Villains. I know all. I know nothing about the weather except he was part of a very small movement of Acoustic oriented. Black Sochi almost so writers who were? Very close to to vote, he's and then. He. Is, career, in the last long, nor was the all would chill at the time that he was an important figure wall was career last, and he had a long term influence, and yeah and people like Terry Collioure. I would throw in Donny. Hathaway is another one that didn't quite coalesce into a move him, but there are definitely a bunch of sort of semi eccentric. African American musicians Taj Mahal. Maybe even could be lumped in that category, a little bit but even Rodriguez, who later becomes famous from the searching for sugarman documentary is is right in there with them. There's something going on where not every black musician is following James Brown down the funk rock are, but let's hear a gamble and huff production. This is one of my favorites. This is Harold Melvin Harold Melvin notes doing I. Miss You. Road. Mess. swept. Went Away. And that's Harold Melvin, and the blue nuts and I miss you produced by gamble and huff without incredible philly band, backing him up, and that sound is very close to what's going to be known as disco. Well. ALLOCATES COMMON The rhythm section is Is One. That will be copied a lot. More era, mechanical disco records What was different was that they were? There's an actual band playing there. And they were. Going for. A disco hit. They were going for a hit where we came from. And now able to penetrate am radio. I can remember hearing a number of gambling productions on any radio. When my sister was tuning into here Jim Croce or whatever she was into at the time, and that was pretty distinct at the time. Not a lot of black artists were breaking through. Right is true, they they. They had a a a new formula. You know they studied how motown had become successful and apply to their own work without being imitative. Broke through big, meanwhile, another mainstay of African American rhythm and blues over the past decade or so stack records axe records is in its death throes. Yeah well that that was bad, bad, financial management and Basically getting screwed by the establishment. Stacks also has had more or less lost their identity when they After after Otis Redding, said they, they turned away from using booker t and the M Jesus their core to their studio band, and as a result they whereas turned their back on on the rougher Gospel Blues Oriented Stuff had had made him famous so they they lost their identity although they change so record for a while. and. I got quibble a little bit. Because I had big hits with the staples. Singers Johnny Taylor and others. They were still recording with muscle. The muscle shoals guys will just sort of anathema for stacks to go down in recorded the swampers, their biggest rivals, but yeah I see what you're saying on the big win, but the Clive Davis Steel tell us about Clive Davis. Columbia records and how Clive Davis Kids Bar Mitzvah ended up. One of the death will have stacks records. Dave was a hotshot young lawyer who manage the? Way Up to becoming the head of CBS. CBS RENDERS CBS music and He. He definitely put his his fingerprint on what they were signing, and he was also looking for deals. Where you know, you could get a label and us. As a profit center in stacks was definitely potentially that as was you know philly international the international gambling hub. Operation so he wound up getting all those, which was a real boon for in Columbia because Columbia had never been a major force in black music for Columbia and Warner Bros. for whereas white and and. You know as corporate as could be and for clive to do this coup by acquiring Philly, international and stacks. Not, owning stacks, but running its business through Colombia giving. Access to Colombia's excellent distribution network. That that helped them out at a time when they really needed and they'd also become. Not I don't know that. That is identifiable as they'd been. There wasn't that that. Stack out there to change that and. They did. and Clive gets arrested and part of the charges are that he's funneled record company money into paying for things like his kids Bar Mitzvah. He claims it was a legit business expense, because everybody in the record industry was there, but he's taken out, and it's essentially revealed that they had once again like they had with Jerry Wexler Atlantic back in the day a deal with a person more than a company, but this time it's not written down. They can't get out of the contract and it ends up by the end of the war between Colombian stacks taxes destroyed, and it's revealed that. Columbia had filled their warehouses up with stacks product that it never sold never even tried to ship out so. And that was also the death will not only for stacks also for a big star in the other white bands and assigned to that that. Operation and two more things I wanNA bring up for a close the door on stacks, and that's the almost simultaneous or the near contemporaneous deaths of Paki accident and Al Jackson Junior. Tell us about those two guys and why they were so important to stacks, and what was lost when they died. Will Paki action was the reason. Sachs came into business in the first place he he had a band which he called. The marquees and they recorded a record. Named last night and his mother. Was a running record store and. Her brother. Was a country fiddler who decided to that. Remove Blues was a profitable thing to get into so from the very beginning Paki was. Knee deep in in stacks records even though he was. Out of Control Alcoholic, and in the process of drinking himself to death. What happened out, Jackson? This is still a mystery to me. Some guy came up off the sidewalk and shot him dead. This was a tragedy, not only for stacks also were Memphis, other record labels, gold wax and high, because L. Jackson apparently never slept. He was always playing on session. He was that good. Yeah there's there's bottomless mysteries to this as I've discussed Robert Gordon previous installments show. Some people think his wife was involved. It's it's very sad. Berry unknown, and just you know at the end of the day, another brilliant African American musician Dina violent deaths in America and the IT happens in the context of stacks in one detail that I did now Robert Gordon Book that they you know Alabel was a very very resourceful business manager, and he almost nailed a hail Mary pass to save stacks with a financial deal with the House of Saud. That's undone when King Faisal is assassinated in Riyadh. Educated Hustle you expect from Alabel. that. You know I just happen to have a shake in my back pocket. WHO has trillion dollars to pour into our record company? And almost pull it off if not for a stabbing by one of his uncles, I thank our brother half brother, who who wanted the throne instead. Let's move on to what's going on in television right now. They're still struggling to find the perfect home for rock and roll on TV. Dick Clark still out there with American bandstand, but it really hasn't advanced at all since the early sixties and you've got a number of people working on sort of a holy grail the late night concert show. That was. That was because nobody really knew where to put a live rock and roll show you. Putting in Primetime was not a good idea. They noticed that FM. Radios getting numbers after midnight. which was? Not a place where? Television was Particularly active you know. They put all movies and stuff overnight and so late in the evening was was. where? A rock and roll performance television show would be. would be a good idea. They went up against against late night. Talk shows and one for awhile. In concert on ABC, and you've got the midnight special on NBC and Don Kirshner the famous king of the Brill building in the early sixties. Rock concert in syndication, and they're all doing pretty well, but can't quite get the sound right and really king biscuit flower on FM radio was a much better sound for music. Fans will because they had you know. As somebody during this period noted. Nobody did television for sound. There was just no way to do it. The speakers in your best television sets were tiny little things. They weren't made for music. But and some people went to the silo, cast model where you tuna in your your FM radio, and then just turned down the sign the sound on your television set, and then you'd have you know the picture and Stereo, but it took two machines to do it so. They were just getting getting. It figured out. And at the same time, writer companies are starting to begin. What's GonNa? Be Thirty year war that in some ways they ultimately lose, but record companies are very concerned with home taping. Home Taping is killing music and it's illegal. Newsreels statement grew, but that was the ad that you are A. Put in music, magazines and trade magazines and even billboards. I? It was ridiculous. Nobody believed it. Like being told the marijuana leads you to heroin. But enough people tried it. They knew it wasn't true. And also the are a suppress their own report that people who taped most music bought the most music. Underage their narrative. Yeah, and they're gonNA have. Repeated rounds of this. Throughout in the seventies, it's home taping killing music. Meanwhile, we've already talked a little bit about some heroin casualties. Billy Mercier, the original drummer, the New York dolls was one also killed a Robbie. McIntosh Drummer from the brilliant wight. Scott's front band average white band, but there's another drug on the scene. Cocaine. What's it doing to the record industry? Oh. It was weird. The word on the street was cocaine was expensive. But. It was not addictive, which was a total lie, and what it's doing is encouraging people to to use it because they weren't gonNA. Get Right, but it also had a bunch of. A bunch of side effects besides being addictive, it was I'm trying to think of how to how to put his best. It Changed People's. Personalities, and made them far more abrasive also for the record industry. One thing that seemed to do was. Affect. The frequencies that people could hear so records came out with very low base and very high treble All of the sudden you got these cocaine mixes a on on some of the records that. I mean getting played on radio one thing. What do you take their records home listened to. They really did sound weird. But There were all kinds of coq. Jokes are where the classified ads in the back of the rolling stone. Jewelers were selling over coax from mail. It was a big fad and. I guess. People. People learned their lesson too late. A lot of people did. and. Let's hear one artists who was dramatically influenced by his massive use of cocaine. Unfortunately, it didn't result in terrible music like it did was say black Sabbath and some people say fleetwood MAC's tusk album talking about the thin white Duke David Bowie his ready, changed away from Stardust got into funk and saw with young Americans then he comes out station to station and has a new persona and a new direction. Here's the title Song. Stay. And that was David. BOIES station the station, which is reasonably commercially successful album. We talked to the last episode about how had blown up enormously in England was start us, and then had some difficulty solemn himself in the states, but over the course of multiple tours multiple times he's breakthrough. He had a number one hit with fame co written with John Lennon and station to station establishes. Him as an artist with room to move artistically. He was but it was also affecting his. His personality he He had this flirtation with fascism and and Nazi imagery and stuff like that. It wasn't until he sort of settled down from that he became. More popular in the United States. It for a while. Yeah He. He gets into some dark personal roads, not just Nazism, but cocaine. The cult is well. He's hanging out with a glint news. The Bass player for Deep Purple Mark Three and and definitely goes down. Some very dark roads and many musicians are about John, Lennon, Harry Nelson. cates main out there in L. A. But meanwhile. There's a businessman in La. I'm talking about David Geffen. WHO BECOMES THE ABSOLUTE KING? Have the scene in California. Well he had been in partnership with Elliot Roberts, who was a manager of so many of these west coast singer Songwriters Joni Mitchell. That that crowd, and he saw hole in in the in the Bob Landscape. To fill with well made. almost machine. Made singer-songwriter records, and so he He moves into that. At and Shit big units and you talk about. The record the first record that he did with Bob Dylan asylum records after Dylan leaves our Grossman leaves Columbia records, and the joke was that the album shipped gold and returned platinum. What's that about? Well? That's that's about this. Plot that he had to get the top five albums and billboard. In one week He. He had a bunch of records that were selling very well and the the deal with them. With, the. Remember? The name of the records show planet waves plant Weisbaum by Bob Dylan, court and spark by Joni Mitchell on I can't remember the carly Simon Album, but he pulled off the one two three at least. Yeah and yet that was achieved. Many people thought by. Semi illegal. Process called transshipping in which the album's themselves. They're fell into the hands of actual consumers let. Record stores were buying them and and receiving them, and then returning them for for full credit, which was the record companies? deal at the time you could. Return Record. And and get full credit. Another title. A record store so these these records were winding up with the large quantities records that they either did or didn't order, and then sending them on through the distributor to yet another destination in the record may never have been. Picked up and sold an actual actually. Played by consumer, so the the numbers that were flooding around the the record industry where suspect. And wh, what are what are the artists there? That's in the middle of this is Bob Dylan and he. Does a couple of tours around this time that I. Think are very representative of the business in two different directions, one is a mega tour. He does with the band in Nineteen, seventy, four and other as a much smaller thing in a very eccentric thing called the rolling thunder revue. Right that was. His idea at this point in his career when Bob, Dole decided he was also, GonNa make films and so. Rolling Thunder which was. A bunch of. His friends basically and hairs on and a central band. Toured the toured the country, and filmed their adventures on the road in hopes that who turned into a film I. Don't think it actually did but. I think or just last year maybe. Recently they put it together, but you know he. He had these ideas that what he was doing was worth. Making film out of so he He did and and. Shown the spotlight as old friends like ramble Jack Elliott and Newtown like Running she was in in. Robert Altman's horrible Phil Nashville. But she actually did have town I mean. She could play and write songs, and so she she was on the rowing on your tour Allen Ginsberg was on the rolling thunder tour it was it was a strange, little thing and Mostly fell apart, but. It was, it was what Donald was doing that at that point and the fans were always interested, and it was a big. Contrast with the stadium tour where he's doing gigs to fifteen twenty thousand people with the band, just the four. Talk the band in their sort of career in the that seventy four towards Kinda comeback for both Dylan and the band, and the band had been used in sixty, eight, sixty nine, and and had sort of petered out in a way over the years. How do they put a cherry on top at the end of it all? Though. Robbie Robertson who was the the band's guitar player decided that it was time to break up the band they. Had done what they were going to do and there were. Drug problems within the band so. He decided they would. They would retire publicly. I by doing a big. Concert and Winterland in San, Francisco and showcase some of the acts. They'd worked WHIZ. Wondered whether. It'd be one of them was a handy way. Of packing the joint Bill Graham, who owned the? Land He. decided that he would do on Thanksgiving and provide Thanksgiving dinner for people willing to pay a large amount of money to come to the event and sit down. This is an era when. A lot of the particularly the west coast. A lot of the promoters had the this idea dressing up rock, fans and Tuxedos. I mean. There was a dress code blue for the? Last Waltz are remember I was not privileged to. Eat Dinner and sit on the flora. Hadson bleachers where they had cleaned by hosing it off the seeds for so wet, said. There was this is classes them coming by? skaggs was a real a real pioneer of he he. Held concerts where there was a dress code to go to a theater in Oakland and watch him and his band perform. It was it was ridiculous. I I was supposed to go, and they said a limousine. And since I dress code, I didn't get to show I was heartbroken. Glad you survived that. And meanwhile there's a phenomenon of Oleg Zayn and something old something new going on that. The Rock family tree becomes a phenomenon where artists Peter Frame. Makes a career of drying elaborate family trees, a witch rock bands were connected to watt rock, bands and groups like free of the late sixties turned into things like bad company, and the small faces spin out into the faces with Rod Stewart and Ronnie Wood x the Jeff Beck Group, but they also turned into humble pie with the original lead singer of the small faces and Peter. Frampton who goes onto become very unlikely superstar when he goes Solo. He in. Trenton is odd. He had his own band the heard but. All this recombinant DNA rock bands during this period He wound up with humble pie for a moment. I hope I was not exactly your most stable collection guys I'm sure he'd had a lot of fund them in the family trees and Eventually Frampton. had his own band which is named after him. Nobody really can name WHO and his management decided that thing to do would be to. Capitalize on the fact that he had really sold the whole records, but do way and do a live out because the performance or so good so he did a live recording again at. At winterland and Grandma is obligated to have him on for I. Think two weekends and he kept. Shifting opening acts to get people into the house. I remember I went to a couple of those. Performances and He really was not. Nobody was looking forward to the headliner. Practice. Santana they had met the hoopoe they had this Welsh fan club man, all of whom were quite popular. We're landing. That's how people got through the door. And since they were there, they always stayed for the headliner. I believe that mostly applause on Frampton comes alive was. Was Dug in didn't keep it from becoming the best selling album of the time loan it was. It was a massive hit. Add, let's hear Peter Frampton on the midnight special. This isn't from the lab at this. Frampton Frampton Frampton comes alive, which sold zoe copies, but Appearing live on the midnight. Special is integral to the promotion. This is, do you feel like I do? Now as Peter, Frampton live on the midnight special during this hit. Do you feel like I do and as big as out album was? He was never able to follow up on. Right. Well he he apparently didn't have the chops to write. Those kind of sauce or he the band together. I don't know what it was. He there were so there's so much talent at that point as defined by the record industry that you know. It was all disposable that the guy didn't go up with another. Smash it and of course Frampton. Had sold so many units and a double album, which was twice the retail. You know it's the same as by to records. As far as the money was concerned, but you know if an act like that couldn't follow up, forget it, you know. Lose them. Go onto the next thing. The kids will buy whatever you thrown front of them. And there's tons of records. Van Sold a new. You briefly mentioned sort of a new wave of heavy rock group. Queen Aerosmith. Party talked about Rainbow Spin out of deep, purple and Bob Seger what's the commonality between those groups? Together. Well mainly, and they were hard rock. They were loud and They were popular. Queen maybe not so much initials. Even they became popular. aerosmith had. Chart singles and they also toured relentlessly, so everybody got to see aerosmith rainbow was a heavy banned from The I think they date back to. The Moody Blues Originally And, some of Ritchie blackmore came out of deep. Purple and Ronnie James. Dio had his own band called Elf. But was otherwise unknown in a very old. Thing is in his mid thirties before he joined up with Rainbow and it was an American. was. Releasing singles in the fifties. He was a lot older. Anybody knew he was in something that he shared with in hundred. Of. You know these guys weren't teenagers. And, and yet he's got a totally eccentric style hit deep in swords and sorcery, and all kinds of nonsense again and artists that Gen xers just love all of the baby boomer critics at the time hated this stuff like Queen. In particular was just lows by the critical establishment. The time I mean what's that all about like kids? Keep your mind to millennials Gen. Xers and millennials queen is on this absolute pedestal of all time. Greats I know that might be weird to you, but that's the fact. What is it about in? The boomers hated so much. Are some rumors. I I don't know I. Mean there is so much talent you could. You could ignore somebody like that if they didn't. Meet your checklist of acceptable rock behavior and you know I mean. It was pretty evident to a lot of people that Freddie worker. He was gay and. Also their Their songwriting wasn't very pop. Although I. It's. Heaven knows what they were trying to accomplish. They would sound different every single and. Then they came out with this thing. Called Bohemian rhapsody which. I never got it all I never get to see. Had any structure in Oh, so I guess a lot of people. That was cool. It was they were loud and they were flamboyant and. They toured a lot. Yeah and I can tell you as a third grader at the time. I spent the entire summer of seventy, seven or seventy eight. Getting up every morning, play monopoly with my Buddy Stan Cooper and listening to Quyen over and over again unless we popped on kiss, and and they locked us in Neon, and definitely the homophobia was an issue I mean it was a much bigger deal in the seventies to be gay than it would become than it is now thankfully, but Freddie Mercury was definitely penalized for that by cognizant, but nonetheless made his mark sold out stadium sold platinum records and the rock critics were basically they were influential. They were unable to stop somebody like Kwena Order. They couldn't kill right anymore. If you if you had told you know anybody in the rock. Press back then that someday why I mercury would. Make for a big hit movie. Role laughing you know just it'd make them. Crazy will really come on. This is true. Yeah, I. Mean it's just a and it's very weird thing I mean acquaintances. Of Like folk, classical influences, choirboy singing an obsession with the Beatles over dubbing studio techniques i. think in some ways. They're the true heirs to the Beatles along with electric. Light Orchestra. In the way they structured their music in the studio, and yet the overall package just seemed very alien, threatening to to the boomer critical establishment, and there's one other guy at the time that you are in there. Who has some left field heads, and goes on to form to amass an immensely huge cult and I'm talking about Jimmy Buffett. Wrap this up Thomas attack a deal, a Jimmy Buffett. Jimmy? Initially appeared on the scene as country rock, and he wrote really catchy songs, so he was considered to be. You know a country rocker with a a weird. overlay of the added an image that was very well crafted it was. In south. Florida and you know that was an aspirational thing. Just like living in Laurel. Canyon was win buffet knew what he was doing, and the fact that he blew up to the said that he did maybe couldn't have been foreseen, but he was very definitely use affair I had a couple of his albums myself and it was it was fun to listen to. He was a country rocker in in the way that. Plot of the other country rock urged were. Maybe to country to Interact to too close to the horror that was Nashville. and. Let's to stop by going back to the other piece of unfinished business from the last episode, and that is what is going on in Nashville or an hour, and a hit on billy, Cheryl and the country, polyps and sound. Waylon Waylon Jennings, and the nascent. Austin rebellion as well as eccentric songwriters like Shel Silverstein Tom t hall. Yeah well, see the thing is. Nashville, controlled country, music, and yet country music was a nationwide for Nominarion so these. These odd songwriters. Were you have to look at them? You have to know that know shelves, overstatements Weirdo, who wrote children's books and live on a houseboat? You know it was. He was making money for the publishing firms as we're the other guys. You mentioned Thompson Hall was He. He, he will Harper Valley PTA. He wrote these these. Stories songs as they. Call at that point they were. You know nothing more than ballads which are staple folk music, but it was considered a weird to do that. Instead of the you know I I love you. June you know the. Hockey drank in song, and you've got to mention a boy named sue a Shel Silverstein massive massive hitting, he also wrote cover the rolling stone for Dr Hook and the medicine show one about Billy Cheryl and his production acumen for artists like George Jones Tamwe net johnny paycheck. He had this this idea of combining a string section with country music, and that seemed to work out pretty well, not only that it put country music on the pop charts for the first time since the days of Ellison. Call Perkins so The money machine was the music industry suddenly had is. Unhappy Little cousin perk up and started grinding out more money, so that was what? Billy was about about I. Mean He'd started out at Sun Records as an engineer and Realized that he had had good ears, not only in terms of engineering, but arrangement and production, so that's why he went into, and he got hired by Columbia records, which in those days still using only house produce. They didn't allow you to. Pick her friend, George and having come in the studio. Peruse your record. You know he couldn't do that without passing an audition. This official Columbia recording. Producer or engineer? A. And that's the very system that people like Willie Nelson who had to sign with Atlantic and their attempted country, venture, which failed to do a couple of albums and his buddy. Waylon Jennings is breaking from that studio system as well and cuts in album. Of all but one song by a guy named billy, Joe Shaver, which is a complete break with billy sherrill country politics stuff. Right knew these guys who. Staw aband- as as being the backup orchestra. They they had fiddles had violence. They had pedal suit stars. In their bands and and that was. That was very traditional, but very radical. Same time it also doesn't hurt to both waylon and Willie. We're from Texas which was kind of at the bottom of the bottom of the list for. For Nashville's country music. Establishment I mean. Texas had never been popular in Nashville, and even when was making lots and lots and lots of money, and when some of their top bax in in Nashville were from Texas people like Ernest job in Georgia domes. Birds Jones say. That that aspect of them was pretty much ignored. The, they were expected to conform to the national way of doing things and when when Cheryl had his. Revolution was acceptable to the suits in Nashville and the public. Now that that was an formulas, it was gonNA make a lot of money, so he discovered a young woman named. PUGH Y net. Sorry why Ned Pew name and she was a hairdresser, and she had a great voice, and so he started. Developing her as an axe, who could exist in this became known as country pardon sound. The idea. Soon escaped Columbia and Columbia Nashville and news found on the. Records by are seeing another huge presence Nashville and also from other maverick. people like Kenny Rogers who'd been A. Folk in Houston and had been. Pro Psychiatry your pop classic. In late sixties. Checking out with the first edition just checked in check out the condition. My condition was I think. immortalising the big Lebowski. What Condition Micron conditions and He used her musical family. His brother had record label where the thirteenth floor. Elevators, record And he had been mooching around Nashville, trying to make it and. Finally decided to. Do a country Paul Approach, and that catapulted him to stardom. And that pretty much wraps us up and and almost finished up the book. The history rock and roll volume two, but I don't want to come back and we'll talk about. The epilogue tacked on, which is the death of Elvis and that's the reason the book is titled Nineteen Sixty Four Nineteen Seventy seven. Even though as we've discussed nineteen, seventy four might be better, but add look forward to having you back onto discussed, one of the darkest days in rock and roll history death of Elvis Presley. Follow the, let it roll podcast on twitter at let it roll cast and check out our website at. Let it roll PODCASTS DOT com. Next week Yuri Campbell returns to ask what did we learn from Elisha walls, escaping the Delta Robert Johnson and the invention of the blues. Let it. Roll is a in podcast, and you can listen to all the other Great Pantheon podcasts at www dot pantheon podcast dot com. The history of rock and roll volume, two, nineteen, sixty, four to nineteen, seventy, seven, the Beatles, the stones and the rise of Classic Rock, his published by Flatiron Books, please support our show by ordering via the Amazon referral link on our website. Let it roll podcasts, Dot Com.

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