20 Episode results for "Kim Wexler"

Better Call Saul | Season 4, Episode 6 + 7 Recap

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1:14:43 hr | 2 years ago

Better Call Saul | Season 4, Episode 6 + 7 Recap

"Okay, everybody what's going on. Josh Witter here filling in for Rochester, Nino on the better call Saul podcast on Poche show recap smoo- four. We get into talking about episodes six and seven pin yada and something stupid. Let me say a little something about our friends over at truecar. Your some useful car tipsy might not be aware of a coffee filter and a little bit of olive oil can clean your interior, removing excess weight from your car will improve gas mileage, and you can place your keep up to your chin to increase its range. Isn't that strange? Well, here's another tip you might not know about. Truecar also helps people get used cars. That's right. Truecar's and just for buying new cars with their certified dealer network and a nationwide inventory of nearly one million used cars, you enjoy real pricing on actual inventory and a simpler buying experience, whether you buy a new or used and with truecar users can see what others paid. So they know if they're getting a good deal before buying. They're also more likely to enjoy a faster buying. Experience by connecting with truecar certified dealers. So when you're ready to buy a new or used car, check out truecar and enjoy a more confident car buying experience, some features not available in all states. Call saw season for episodes six and seven are over, but we are just getting started here on push recaps. It's the better call Saul podcast. Here I'm Poche recaps and if you are a normal listener of the better policy, Paul typecast and not the other podcasts we do here on Bush recaps you're probably like, who's this guy saying something stupid? Well, it's me, I'm Joshua. I'm filling in for the great Rob's Esser Nino, and I'm here as always is here on better call Saul with the great Antonio Massaro Antonio how you doing befriend I'm doing okay, Josh. I'm very sorry to everyone that we did not have a better call Saul podcast last week, rob, his family of suffered personal loss, and our hearts go out to him. Rob is unable to make the podcast this week. Hopefully he will be back next week. So Josh, I just I just wanted to address that from the top that I'm really my heart goes out to rob in his family. Our hearts are definitely out to rob to Nicole the whole family, and we're, we're picking up the torch. While while he is away, like Antonio says, hopefully, rob is going to be back in action for episode eight. If not, I'll stick around if you guys don't shout me away with torches and pitchforks or whack me over the back of the head with a bag of sandwiches who hit someone with a bag of sandwiches. Exactly who does it. The guys guys listen to big mama. Oh, man. Salt Goodman to Rob's Jimmy McGill here. Oh my God. So I'm the evil. Rob is what's going on here. I'm deadly. Like the rob that wears flashy jumpsuits. That seems to be my thing. Yup. The rob that sells burner phones. Yeah. So here I am slinging burner funds in in Rob's absence here with Antonio, wake, you said there was no podcast last week, so we did not get to wack into in yada, which was I thought, really fun episode of the season. And I know that we certainly I think if this had been another episode here in something stupid that was going at the normal pace of better call Saul this season, I think we probably would've done like a real beat by beat, blow down of blow Dan cheese breakdown yet. Area's been yada, but I think because of what happens here in something stupid, like the action is getting fast forward. It so much. I think a lot of pinata fuels what we see here in something stupid, but I think sequentially we should be. We should really be talking at through the perspective of this latest episode. I've got copious notes from both episodes what I was going to talk about on the previous podcast, so we'll make sure we had everything that we import. Why not start with at least like a general conversation of pinata of the episode that got us to where we were because it was a great episode. It's directed by Andrew Stanton. Famously of the Pixar mold. He is the director of the, I think, unfairly maligned. John Carter, I think that's a better movie than it's given credit for. It's not the best movie, but it's not the worst movie. And here he is directing an episode of better call saw where Jimmy was taking steps towards becoming saw that seemed like really big steps in the context of that sowed. Then this episode is really slammed it on the gas really did, and that's what a good time jump will do for you. But we saw the break-up essentially in pin yada, at least professionally of Kim and Jimmy, and that professional break-up, I think precipitates very personal one that is approaching or seemingly approaching from the incident, so something stupid. So the professional break-up is not as emotional as the something stupid one, but we see, I think more of what is playing out in Jimmy in that moment when Kim brings him to the restaurant where they've had so many fun antics together, portraying different personnel. Ladies and tells him of her plan to work at Twyford and coke leeann by the way, misrepresents the fact surrounding that plan seemingly. She doesn't say I went there with the pitch. She says it was offered to her right seems to be real real lawyer ball with the facts there and. Given the scope of the lies that are circulating around this world. I'm willing to give Kim Wexler pass on that. Oh, for sure. I think it's just more Representative of where they already are in their personal relationship that she's not really being truthful with him about that scenario. And I think it's in part because where we see in what we see in that episode is that she's looking at his no pad while he's asleep, and she sees his little drawings of Wexler McGill and she sees Kim Wexler banking law, Jimmy McGill, and every other kind of law listed under the various integrations of his name. So it's clear like she has a plan. He doesn't have a plan, the only plan he has to link up with her and she does she in about that life. Josh doesn't want to go back to that style of life. And it's in that moment. I think when she gets that then when she sees that note pad that she forms the plan, it doesn't help. That Jimmy is is actually honest with her in the moment and tells her it's a no go on therapy. And they have that that discussion and Kim says, you have to do what. It's best for you. That's what she says Jimmy. And I think we see that that's later echoed in this episode when Jimmy gets his bearings. When Kim is pitched that she's going to go to Schweickart and Coakley and take Mesa Verde with her. There Jimmy comes out of that kitchen lurches out of there, and he says, like, you have to do what's best for you. So he's just parroting back to her what she said to him. This is not a break-up or this is not a relationship that seems to have huge moments of tumult. It's just there's a breakdown in their emotional connection, and there's a breakdown in their intimacy from a communication standpoint, and that's at seemingly is on display in pinata a little bit with the events. But it's fantastic montage from the beginning of something stupid that really sums that up. Yeah, I was going to say, I think it's the, it's the slow disintegration of this relationship that we have been seeing here over the course of this season. But especially as escalated in the first of the toothbrush montage was what I what I have labeled it as in my notes, but it's so much more than that. In this first sequencer of something stupid where just slowly but surely Antonio. The leg has been slipping away from Jimmy's side of the split screen line, right? Like, you know, she's been this disintegration between this relationship that has that has been such a driving force of Jimmy and Kim here on this on this season, and it's it's looking. It's looking bad, but it's good for the show at the same time because this is this is what you need to get him to Saul. And I feel like the gentler it is the easier it is on my heart because you know that some sort of horrible moment is going to occur between these two, but if it really is just sort of like the slow parting of ways that's at least an easier pill to swallow. Yeah, they're going to have to put their issues on the table and it's coming up. It's coming up to really unfurl that the big dramatic scene is coming for sure, but it it's foreshadowed already in pin yada in that scene when they're in the restaurant fork, I think it's called her. Perhaps it's called forte. I'm not sure how that's pronounced. Chad believe is a real, a real restaurant in maybe the height regency or a nice hotel in Albuquerque, Kim says, Jimmy, you know, are you sure like? And he says, yeah, you have to do what's best for you. And then Jimmy says, I can't ask you to wait around for me who knows ten months, a lot can happen and what we see in that ten months nearly in the montage or a long period of time is nothing really happening, right? Like nothing significant happening. It's this slow slide into the separation that we see is a montage. I think that is we joke a lot on this podcast, Josh about the montages on better call Saul and how they have such fun with them. There's been some great ones this season specifically like the street life montage, where the with the neon and the puddles ever. All that was shot was really great. But this one I think is is their best maybe the best on better call Saul and up there with the best in this entire catalogue. I thought when I first watched it, it's hard to keep your eyes on what's going on both sides of the screen. But when you really go back and watch it. It's really heartbreaking because you see them drifting apart in subtle ways like she's getting into bed and they're at the same time. They're happy. Then later on she is getting into bed separately than him and she just puts her leg over him. And then later on she is getting into bed separately than him in her side goes dark. I think there's a lot of anyway of, yeah, wakes up and he doesn't do anything, right? Yeah, there are a lot of those little subtle moments. Yeah, you see them like eating dinner together, they're having spaghetti and wine. He's pouring her more wine at dinner, and then you see that they are having dinner completely apart. You know he's feeding the fish while she is that wording right. I there separately reading while they're eating at the same spot, and then she's just eating in her office and he's eating with the fish. So he's pretty soon. Maybe someone will be sleeping with the fish. Who knows? I mean that in the mafia, why not all don't wish that upon Kim Wexler. Yeah, who knows? But no, anything can happen, Josh, ten months. There's a lot of time, but anyway, it's it's just a really good too. Good signaling. We've talked a lot a lot on this show about the need or the desire of. Have a time jump, and I thought it was really nifty the way they accomplished. And this one, maybe a little sloppy in other respects that we'll talk about that on this podcast because we had been boiling some of these other story lines that seemingly we are not addressing yet in the events of something stupid. But time jump is great for the better call saw universe. And I think right for where we're at with these characters, and I think they covered what you would wanna see during that time in integrate a great piece of filmmaking there. With that, montage, reminiscent of citizen Kane, there's a breakfast relationship going apart montage and citizen Kane. That's very, very famous. And I'm sure influence the events of this in some way, but the cover of something stupid, Josh, there's a really detailed story. Have you heard about it through to get this? So I don't know. They edited it originally to the famous Franken, Nancy Sinatra version of something stupid, which is the only one I'm familiar with, and then they decided it was too long or didn't work. They couldn't get the Clarence or something to that effect. So this is a specifically commission to cover. They sent out like a bad. Signal to all these artists and got dozens and dozens and dozens of responses. They narrowed them to fourteen. Then they narrowed those fourteen to two. And this is an Israeli duet Israeli group duo from Israel that they worked with specifically beat by beat to commission this cover for this sequence. That's amazing. That's incredible. Yeah. Well, it paid off because I fully back what you just said. I think that this is one of the one of the high marks of better call Saul. Certainly. And I do think that this montages is right up there with some of the best that we saw on breaking bad. And I think not the least of which you know it reminds me a lot of the crystal blue persuasion scene that you see in and bring bad without spoiling that any further for people who don't know. But I've seen nice. I just don't even by, I know on the guest new here, I don't wanna. I don't wanna like farting. You're in your office. Okay. All right. Well, everyone's dead, no, but you know that that that time jump sequence, I think like any time that the action is being fast forwarded in a way. I think your probably excited. And I think especially with this show with this season, I haven't had the chance to deliver my takes on better call Saul here across the way. But I echo you guys and many of the masses at this was this has been a very slow go and here in the back half it seems like it's really starting to pick up. And I think when you realize that not only is this is this wonderful song playing this wonderful music is playing and you know that we're in for some some fun as you're sensing the fact that one of the driving ideas behind this montage is the parting of ways between Jimmy and Kim. It's also once you start seeing time passing once you see that it's it's June third, and then you see it's independence day, and then you see it's Labor Day. Like I think more and more you're just getting kind of excited by the fact that in a very short bursts of time, a lot of plot. It is moving forward. A lot of things that we don't need to see to understand what is occurring their lives. It's just kind of getting yada, yada, yada, through in a beautiful way so that the bulk of the rest of this episode and now with three episodes still to go in the season. We are in that post crystal blue persuasion mode, whereas that was the back half of the final episode of the first half of the final season breaking that has a lot is a lot of I'm impressed that I was able to do it, but I think that there's immediately with the passage of time, there's a lot of goodwill that's bought here with the montage, aside from the fact that it's just constructed beautifully. And if if you don't get the sense of. What's going on with the with the parting of ways of Jimmy and Kim. In that montage, you're going to get it a little bit later with the neck scenes that you're gonna see with Jimmy and Kim. But before you even go there, you know that Jimmy is getting very close to the point where he might be able to be practicing log and he has not lost his enthusiasm for that with this another great sequence where you're in the perspective of somebody and you don't know who's head you're in as you're walking around this guided tour of Jimmy's hopeful new law firm, his new office, and it's all from the perspective without of you'll, I think, especially given where we know that the rest of the episode is gonna go with, you'll where he is going to be in so much trouble for whacking a cop and the head to start the the proper episode outside of the montage inside the head of he will is just particularly delightful. Very, very funny that had of you'll was world famous. No, it is certainly read it famous and this is. It was a great place to be. I really like, I think what what's happening on this season better call saw they are bringing in some first time directors to the show, and they're bringing in people with different background. This episode was directed by Deborah Chow Joshu directed an episode of something. We podcast about mister robot. One of the few people who can say, at least that gives me with, there's about eight of them or nine of them that they directed a mister robot episode. Now that has taken the helm for every episode since season one, right? She directed season one episode, five, brave, traveler, and yeah, she's got. She's got. She's a, she's she's got a lot on her resume. And so I thought this was a really clever way to shoot this scene as well. Just the the point of view. We've seen Jimmy deliver this pitch before we've seen Jimmy delivered to Kim in season one when he was first pitching her on the idea of the two of them forming a law firm together. We've seen her him leading her through another site when it actually worked out when it was Wexler and McGill, not Wexler McGill when they were separate legal. Practices under one roof, the dentist office, and he was showing her that building. So of course, the assumption is that we're gonna turn and we're going to see Kim, a good laugh that it's you'll, and then heels response about the high rise in the boat. Made me laugh a lot too, but there's just something heartbreaking in the fact that you're right, Jimmy SPD's seems to be done and he seems to be completed with everything he had to finish in terms of the actual legal case. We see that in the montage that PD file goes into close cases. So he's done with what he needs to do for the court. He's now just waiting out his suspension running of the clock. Yeah, running the clock and he's, he's he, he sense of how long he's got left hitting a month left what he says at some point. So he's about one month away and he he's not in a position where I don't understand. He's he later is seen measuring Kim's office at Twyford and Coakley, but I don't think that he can reasonably believe that he's going to be able to pull him out of where she is in the montage. We see she is experiencing a lot of. Professional growth and success. We see you're putting literal trophies up for every new Mesa Verde branch that she's opened. We see her with clients and the PD I believe we see her moving from office to office in Schweickart and Coakley getting bigger offices and building up files. So she really has done clearly a lot in this in this time jump and he's done nothing except cell cell phones. So I don't know why he expects that it would be fair to assume that that she might want this. And maybe he knows the pitches DOS which is why is giving it to heal to begin with. But it's really, it's really bittersweet and sad that we see this autumn. It'll even though it's funny because we've seen a make this pitch to Kim in the past, and we know he doesn't have Huel in mind when he's making this pitchy certainly seemingly would want to be partners with Kim at that point. It's very funny when he asks you all this is if this is what the this law is would be good enough room and he'll heels. Responses are spectacular. I saw no more cell phones. Four. And so if he was a lawyer, he would want a big glass highrise fortieth floor. And that's where he would be when he's not on his boat. I love his idea of a lawyer and like just the idea that like if he was a lawyer, he would be such a bad ass lawyer so that that just on its on, I thought was very funny. But I think to your to your point, one of the things that I was reading into the scene where we're skipping past the Hector stuff a little bit to get into this scene where Jimmy goes to, we'll get to Kim's office party and at Kim's office party. There's the moment where as you say, he's like stepping out across the room, she's got ten steps as opposed to his six steps. And then he goes out and he starts making an asset of himself and really like causing a scene in trying to get under Kim's bosses. I'm blanking on his name to get under his Weicker yet to get under to get under his skin skin. And I felt like this was. An attempt on Jimmy's part. Maybe you know, like early shades of what he's talking about doing later in the episode to Kim, like in conversation with Kim or he's like, we can try like some social engineering to get. You'll out of trouble to me. It almost reads, in retrospect and even a little bit in the moment that Jimmy's like trying to sour Kim's reputation here, not affectively because the business has been able to bring to this law firm, but I think still trying to do it where maybe he can like make things uncomfortable here. Maybe he can get her to backslide into their situation here a little bit. I think that we have met Jimmy at the moment where he is more than willing to do this kind of stuff. And I think that it it really draws a lot from his own bitterness that we have seen him engaging in over the course of this season. You can only imagine how that would be heightened over the course of these ten months. Yeah, it's his own bitterness that I felt drove that scene for sure. I think you make a great observation that I hadn't really thought about that. It was actually perhaps manip-. Bula tive action. I think you're right that he's certainly capable of that, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was part of his motivation. I had a slightly different read on it because he comes into the party and he's making nice with everybody. He's laughing it up. He's talking about meeting these all the famous and the more famous. You know, he's meeting all the people that she works with, and he's being the affable Jimmy McGill. Then he goes into her office and he sees the awards and he measures out the distance and he looks at that award, or I should say, just the things she has framed from a PD client. And the note says, you believed in me when no one else did. And I think that's when his self loathing is just pulled to the surface because that's exactly what Kim has done for Jimmy throughout. She's believed in him when Chuck didn't. She's believed in him when Howard seemingly didn't. She's believing him when no one else did she made the case for him to get the job at Davis in Maine, she stuck her neck out for him repeatedly and believed in him when no one else did she was his his better. I mean, she was everything that he wanted to aspire to be an represe. Rented in flash that that's what she was to him. And I think that note really centers that that guilt or that feeling in him when he reads that known since you were the only person that believe me when no one else did he thought that same same for me, and that's when he emerges from that office and we see import giant drink and then always see that bitterness spilling out. So I think it's probably a cocktail. That's a mixture of all these things right? Like that's what he's drinking down. Maybe they're bidders in the drink, but this is something that I don't think that's how bidders work. Maybe no, read that right on one of those like Douglas steno, whatever. Like ads. Misunderstood, but. I'm not. I'm not a bidders man myself, but yeah, I don't know. I think that I think that that's a huge part of it is that he's, he's got that self loathing like you're saying. And I think that's really ultimately a huge part of what unfurled on rich Wichert. He's clearly just being jerk. And the aftermath of that scene is brutal because Jimmy has pushed Schweickart into a corner with their retreat. And so yeah, start, it starts Intel, you ride, right? And it starts with a bus ride to tell you ride and ends with the plane trip to Aspen with having matching year telluride on Sarah, it's yeah, exactly. So when are we getting Poche recaps parkas by the way. Listen, let's put that on the list. You tell me buddy. I'm ready. All right. I'll look into it. I will wear forever. Nothing else. Yeah, Donald Duck. It. Let's get off this time. Yes, yes, there's things to say, and we don't want to say that they end up in the car on the way home and they don't even have anything constructive to fight about that. This is a huge part of why I know something bigger is coming, right? They don't really sort this out what they do is Kim says that was something Jimmy says, Yep, and turns the radio on, and it's rough. Like it's just the Ohio's own. The breeders come on radio, and it's just loud music. And then we go to commercial, at least when you're watching it with commercials. So not not the best moment for their relationship and they didn't. They didn't sort it out. This is a breakdown in communication. She didn't say, why did you do that? He didn't say, I'm sorry, none of that happened. This is a wound that will faster for sure. Among many Festa. Yeah, I think for for me what's so upsetting is Kim has every reason in the world to especially by the end of this episode to tell Jimmy. To just shove off in, like, get away from this and just break it off and she's not doing that yet. And she's clearly still feeling emotionally tethered to him whether or not that's. You know, I mean, it's not a healthy thing the way that he is acting the way that he is the way that he's treating her by the way that he's lying about his life. What he's doing to himself is very, very difficult for her to whether very clearly, but she's been so ride or die with him that she's not even. She's not even piping up about it and you can understand where she's coming from with that. She's got her own life. She's got her own situations that she has to deal with. But I do think when you're in Kim's position in relationship and the other person that you're in the relationship with is is in such a bad way and is in such dire straits. You just want to give that person so much space to process their grief or whatever it is they're going through, whether it's in her perception, still Jimmy's unreconciled feelings about Chuck's death or whatever it is just wants to treat them Mike, he's an adult and he can handle it and then like the transition from getting to like how you just let the person be their own person and deal with their own stuff. And. Then when is it time to like, say something or when is it time to do something for yourself? If you're already past that point where you no longer can say the thing that's productive to help bring that person back. Feel like that's where Kim is in, and I just, I wonder if the type of confrontation where in between Kim and Jimmy much in the way that their relationship has kind of been might be a little bit like, I don't know a little mundane and maybe not as violently dramatic, at least on Kim's part. Like maybe not even in the way that she likes screams at Howard in the office earlier in this season. I can imagine her very calmly being like Jahn done. I'm out and like Jimmy has just pushed her away at this point. Yeah, you're right. It could be like leading to a fizzle. But these are two lawyers who like classic films. So that would be very anti-climactic sure for their characters. But I think you're right in terms of the nature of the relationship. It's circling the drain, and we've seen that imagery in this season of better call Saul. We've seen the circling the drain imagery and. I think that's exactly what's happening with the two of them in the other tethered together by some unassailable force, but that unassailable force will pull them into a position where there are eventually separated. And so that's that's where they are. I, it's unfortunate that they're in these throws because we talk about opinion, and we talk about how NPR Kim was not completely honest with Jimmy about the PD work are I'm sorry about the Schweickart and Coakley job, but she also wasn't honest with him about the PD work. She did not tell him. I've been taking these PD cases. This is something that I've been doing and it's important to me. So this is a communication breakdown that's been happening for a long time. He does not tell her since similarly in something stupid about the cell phone work, and I'm not shocked that he doesn't tell her, oh, by the way, I'm selling burner cell phones from an old burnt-out shoney's or wherever that is living in a van down by the river. Right. I with this guy, this pickpocket named you'll who I contacted through veterinarian who runs the local underworld connections. No, this is not something that he's been honest with her about. I thought it was a real seemingly like the just the imagery is sets up a says, a lot more about the relationship when he goes and he makes this great pitch to Huel because of course, Hewlett gets arrested for the sandwich incident. That is something that Jimmy feels responsible for Jimmy has been. He's he's, he's just been really facing off with police officer. So the police officers not gonna cut him a break. Any feels like it's his fault. He will goes down hills going to flee, and Jimmy says, let me work my magic. I'm a magic man, magic man, not a lawyer. Don't worry about me as a lawyer. A magic man, Jimmy has no magic is only magic is to go to Kim, and he doesn't call Kim and talk to her at home about this or anything. He's sitting in the lobby of Schweiker Coakley waiting for an appointment with her, and that's rough man. Like he's now on her weightless like he is not somebody who can just walk into her life. He's somebody that has to talk to an assistant or wait in a waiting room before he can. See her and he's almost like a client in that respect. And when he tells her about the cell phone stuff, your right that the real heartbreaking part of it is she says, like you've been selling burner phones out of the back of a whatever. And instead of like them being that being an issue, she swallows, it should just gone and she says, all right, I'm just going to confront the case. It's fine. Yep, it's good. And then the moment where that CNN's is very godfather, like at the end of the godfather where the doors she slams the door Jimmy's face like, don't ask me about my business, Jimmy. Like in the door shuts in his face. That's something we've seen on this show before too. It's in season one episode nine when Jimmy and Chuck and Howard are sitting in the conference room and they're talking about why Jimmy can't work on the Sandpiper case. And Kim has asked to leave the room mates, Kim leaves the room, the doors shut in her face, and the shot is is blocked and stage very similarly to this one Kim has she's occupied a different space. Now, and that's teased in pinatas. Well, I'm wondering, how do you feel about. Kim occupying more of a Chuck like role in Jimmy's life at this point? Yeah. I mean, I think that's very, very similar dynamic where Kim, Kim, as ascendant, you know, even as the relationship is circling, the drain Jimmy is falling and Kim is rising and it's not unlike where it was for Jimmy and Chuck where Chuck was rising through his career in Jimmy, was slipping Jimmy and not selling phones on the street, but you know, dropping other things off in people's vehicles of your. No. So you know, it's a, you know, he's certainly at this moment in time. He's in a better spot than he was there. When he's confronted by the cop, the cop isn't like even questioning the legality of what he's doing. So at least there's that, but he's still he's still lying to the closest person in his life. And I think as much as there is a self loathing in Jimmy, and I think that that is very, very real. It's impossible not to detect like some sense of. Loathing toward Kim's success. And I think that that is absolutely how he used to feel towards Chuck in this feeling of like, oh, you think you're so much better than me. And I don't think that that's how Kim views Jimmy at all. I think Kim, the feeling that I get from Kim is Kim is consistently heartbroken by Jimmy and surprised by the lies and kind of taking it as as a matter of fact deal because she's very rational and that's just how she's dealing with it. That's how she's processing it. And I think she's denying herself some righteous fury towards this guy. But I think she loves Jimmy and she wants to help him out. And I think that she doesn't. She doesn't view herself as as better than him. But when he comes to her and he says that he needs his help about everything that happened that you'll like there's an I've been. I've been hugging. I've been huckster in cell phones on on the side. Like I think she's got no choice other than to just like kind of snap into that business mode. And I'm so eager to find out how she is going to then address him. Wants this whole deal with you'll is over because you can tell that she's kind of just in tunnel vision mode right now. Right? Just trying to carve her way through this current situation. Right. And I think you're right that she doesn't see herself as better than Jimmy. This is seated very properly at the beginning of pinata with that flashback from nineteen Ninety-three where we see the time when Jimmy and Kim both worked in the mail room together and Kim was a hotshot, right? She was already in law school. She was three, oh, she was impressing Chuck with her case knowledge, and she was kicking out over the case that Chuck had one seemingly with his knowledge of only obscure precedent and Jimmy couldn't care less. He was making jokes or he could care less. I guess I couldn't care less. He doesn't care at all. He he's making jokes about acids and platters and not really caring about the result, and Kim was very different and when Chuck and Howard walk away from that scene to meet Mr Bush mills and Howard's office, Jimmy says to, Kim, that's going to be you one day, and I think that's. Fascinating to think about when we are in this position that we're in with something stupid where Kim is occupying this ascendant role as you're observing that she's already in that role like Jimmy has said it in one thousand nine hundred ninety three when they were running the Oscar pool, and she was the hot shot in the mail room. And here she is like he predicted it. He was right, but the other real killer part about that scene is it was her being impressed by Chuck's legal acumen that seemingly caused Jimmy to want to become a lawyer. We see almost immediately after that Seaney dry. He takes his mailroom card by the law library, and he enters the law library seemingly beginning his hero's journey to becoming saw Goodman, entering that law library, crossing the threshold and picking up the legal materials and accepting his role in this drama. So that is the moment where he decides to become a lawyer. And if you buy that, then you buy that he, he probably decides to become a lawyer to impress him Wexler much the way his brother Chuck did and having Chuck removed from his life. Now in part because of things that. Jimmy and Kim did to him and both feeling partially responsible for that and her now occupying that place of superiority doesn't really matter how she feels about him. It is own self loathing that's getting in the way and that's causing him the problems that he's having. And I think in the spirit of giving a fuller picture to continue pushing through this Jimmy and Kim storyline, keep wanting to say Jimmy and Kimmy it's very hard tongue twister on in the making. You get, you get this. She goes to court, and she's trying to tell her adversary like this is this is there's, there's there's no history of violence here and the people that you've personally you try to pass. Are you barely through the book at them, all of this. And then this person's like our only witness is a scumbag disbarred lawyer who peddles drop phones to criminals. And when you put the picture of Jimmy in in that light and throw it back at Kim, that's a, that's a really tough pill to swallow. And she says something to the effect of like, you don't have the full story and then she walks away and like that's the thing that causes her to back down. And for me, that's two fold. The first reaction that I had to that was her being faced with the reality of of what Jimmy looks like to other people. If not necessarily the reality of who Jimmy is to her, and now having to consider that that is Jimmy McGill is. So there's that one read, which was my I read. And then I think the second read here that really had an. Occurred to me until you were talking about it is Kim zone guilt over Chuck's death and the role that she played in that and that the reasons why Jimmy is where Jimmy is at Kim feels like she probably shoulder some of that burden. Definitely, definitely. And she's not. It's the whole idea of my brother's keeper. That's fantastic. When you look at the drama between Jimmy and Chuck, but I think Kim, whether or not she's occupying the Chuck role in Jimmy's live, she does feel responsible for him and as you're observing responsible for his situation in some way, and she understands the full story that Chuck was persecuting Jimmy. She had that huge blow up against shock in a previous season where she said you've rated him and his whole life. You've done all of these things to him. Did this and you did that and you never give him a chance and you never took them seriously and the whole Shakespearian drama that played out between the brother. She was an observer of a lot of it and she had a pretty intimate. She ended up pretty intimate view of how that impacted Jimmy. And so she does have a lot more sympathy for the. Guy, but that I can only go so far. And I think the fact of the matter is she's moved on emotionally. He's no longer the support system for her that he was. She is built her own life and it doesn't include him. He's just meeting the people that work on her team for the first time, seemingly ten months into her job, and they all live in the same city. And she goes to work every day, and he's a lawyer with nothing else to do like Adam shocked that they've not met before he's not met any of her colleagues. And so this is odd because it is such a small town and because he is a lawyer and I, it just shows I think that he's not playing a very active role in what she's building Schweickart and Coakley. He's very separate from all of that. Perhaps by design perhaps not. But I think she has. She has separated him from her life already. I before I even saw this week's episode in last week's episode and pinata I had in my notes that that was a break-up seen in that in that hotel and four k. that they choose breaking out with him professionally if not personally. And I think the two, maybe at. At least in this case are perhaps more linked that when we're then we would have realized last week and at the saw that play out this week, for sure, it's, it's really heartbreaking. They did. They've done a good job. I had said with rob, Josh, on this podcast that took two and a half seasons for us to get to the climax in Chuck's trial and chicanery insurer Jimmy's trial with Chuck's testimony chicanery and season three episode, five or six or whatever that is. And we said this show is slow before that. When's it going to become Saul? Goodman? It's so slow, but we got to that episode and we said, wow, that was so good. I didn't care about anything else in the show I was. I was reimb- wrapped the entire episode best episode, a better call Saul. Fantastic. Well, that's because it took two and a half seasons to build to that moment. And I think the Jimmy and Kim story, if you re watch better call Saul, there are a little bit at arm's length. They clearly have some kind of relationship in the in the first season. But season two does the job of immediately reseed. Everything between the two of them as the central issue for Jimmy's character other than Chuck. So they've been building that throughout season two throughout season three. And now here we are in season for two and a half seasons later with a lot of that story built up. So this is coming. It's a slow Bill, but it's build that I think is going to have devastating emotional results because they've taken the time to build it. So it certainly was on display in this episode between the two of them and you got to imagine it's coming very, very soon or at the very least some other major conflict is on its way between Jimmy and Kim that you've got to imagine. It's going to lead to the break-up the official break up between these two because Kim tries to do her thing. As we mentioned before, clearly the the other lawyer is not going to budge. This is not going to work out, Kim is not going to be able to get you'll into a situation where he is not facing jail time. He's going to at least be facing a little bit of jail time. She thinks it won't have to be two months or two years, rather eighteen months whatever it is, but it's she's going to she's going. She's not going to be able to just complete. Get him off and Jimmy, having talked to Hugh Hewitt was like, I'm not going to jail. I'm gonna run. I have places I can go. I will walk. What does he say? Like you're going to get pulled over in three years Brits. And he's like, I, I won't bust until house just fantastic. So so we know that you'll does not want to face any jail time. And so when Jimmy, here's from Kim that he's going to have to face a little bit and you're going to need to back my play. He's going to call you after I see him and you just need to back my play and Jimmy just at first is trying to yes, her to death and kind of talk to her ambiguously to leave himself enough space to do his slip in Jimmy thing. Or I guess his saw Goodman thing as he has been going by Saul Goodman in these intervening ten months when he's approached by the police officer is because he found a Saul Goodman business card in drug dealers wallet when he busted him. So Jimmy is in this in this montage has become Saul Goodman. I mean, we know of course that that had happened earlier in the series, but he's resurrected that alias again. So this isn't even slip in Jimmy. At this point, he's he's good meeting it up. Goodman in this clearly shows, I think he's building a name on the streets. This is a built-in way for him to auto. Any goes back to the practice of law. Why be Jimmy McGill? He's known as Saul Goodman with xactly wants to represent. So here we are. Yes. So we're already there, so that's really fast, and that's really great. Like we're in that where in that place of momentum with the with the salt Goodman stuff right now. So we're in a very exciting point in the story, but I think that the fact that he's trying to be like, yeah, okay. That makes sense. I'll I'll sure we'll see. We'll see what happens. There's like, what do you mean? We'll see what happens. You're gonna back my play. Right? And that's when he gets like a little more specific, but still they, whereas like you do your thing, I'll do mine. What does that mean? He goes, don't worry about it and then he drives off. So at this point it's almost like Jimmy has revealed to her. So nonchalantly, the fact that he's been selling street phones on the side, Kim had such like a com detached reaction to it that he may have been expecting to get his head bitten off potentially. And that did not happen that even now it's almost like he's got like the. The arrogance or the confidence that that went over so smoothly. So now I can just be the most alpha version of myself, which is this all Goodman character. And you can't imagine that Kim is going to abide that for a long. The thing that makes me nervous is the end of the episode with Kim when she goes, she's buying all the office supplies and she desperately calls Jimmy and says, whatever you're doing, don't do it. I have a better way. Is it some version of one of the more trickster things seem Kim do with Jimmy before? And so is she being sucked into the vortex and this moment? I think what we're going to see ultimately next episode is that Kim, we'll have taken something positive from Jimmy. I don't think it's going to avoid Tech's sucking negative moment for him. I think it's going to be Kim what what she understood or what happened. What we see in that same, what she understands is that Jimmy says, I'm going to do it my way and Kim starts driving away. And I think what's going through her head in that moment is what is his way? What would that look like? What do you think he could do. Who is he? He's a flamboyant showman. He's the kind of guy who makes a scene who knows how to knows how to Turkey tick and make a PR stunned or something to that effect. Right. I really think that's that's where she's going with this. I don't think that's a vortex moment for her. I think that's her realizing there are things about Jimmy McGill that are positive, and that you can use that are traits that can actually have a positive impact on what you're doing. It's on questionable that he was good at some of the things that we've seen him do in the past. He was a good commercial. Like the guy knows how to how to tug at the heartstrings of what he's doing. Like we know that he's good at that. We've seen him do it in multiple instances. He was pretty successful with some of his endeavors in the past, the billboards not worked very well. And yeah, those are a little bit out of bounce in there a little bit ginned up. But on the other hand, they work. And so I think knowing what we know about Kim and her love for to kill a Mockingbird and Atticus Finch and knowing what we know about the unfair treatment of you'll Babbit. No, I think she's going to make. A big deal out of this. I think those markers are probably for some kind of signs or protest or something to that effect. And I think we're really going to see her do the Jimmy McGill thing and create a controversy here surrounding this incident bring bad PR to the police department. I really touch on that incident to to win her client, some some sympathy. So I think that's what she's doing. I think that's what is Gil play and what's the motivation behind that is purely because she loves Jimmy and wants do right by him or is like, I'm going to do this last thing for Jimmy, and then it's it's water under the bridge. I am absolved of any debt that I owe this guy like, where do you see that aspect of this going, I think is tequila Mockingbird thing. So I think she wants to help you. I think that's part of it. I think she wants to help a client because she has this warrior complex that has led her to nearly give up a multi million dollar seemingly now, banking client and throw that businesses side to pursue helping the persecuted. And she sees this as a true. Early on fair case she she knows she's done our homework as she said. So I think our motivation in part is to win this thing and to help you'll and to really help this particular client. I think the Jimmy way is her way of saying like, okay, I can give into this a little bit, and I think your way might actually work. We've seen in the past that she enjoyed some of the Capers that she ran together with Jimmy. They had a lot of fun being different people are running seemingly harmless cons on people like Ken wins to just just really just a tug at their strings a little bit. No other reason, they never profited other than a little bit of tequila from what they did. So we've turned her really embracing enjoy a lot of the Jimmy Mikio life when it's appropriate. And I think she thinks that this is probably an appropriate time to do it. I don't think this is a one last hurrah thing. What I do think is that you're right that she's tunnel vision on this and that once it's off the table, what's going to be left is this thing where she has to confront Jimmy about everything that's come before. Right? That put them in this position where she. Had to or she ended up in this in this particular case, I don't think this is gonna tanker. Legal could ride she could stick our neck out in a way that Schweickart and Coakley could want no part of, but I don't see that happen. Yeah, that's not quite the nightmare scenario. The nightmare scenario for the reason why Kim Wexler is not in the breaking bad portion of this story is something unspeakable as far as I'm concerned. But one of the nightmare scenarios could be that Jimmy is going to directly lead Kim, who is at the height of her success into her own vortex of doom professionally and I, I really don't wanna see that. I just feel like at a certain point. You know, through through everything that we saw in this episode like she really needs to process the fact that Jimmy was doing something in his nine to five day to day life that was completely different from what he was claiming to do. And I cannot imagine that sits well with her, and I can very much see the scenario where this is she washes her hands of this case, and she really takes that to task. And that could be the end of this relationship. Like I could see it being as simple as that could be, but who knows. It is definitely we're, we're building to that for sure. Some kind of moment between the two of them and Jimmy is nothing if not one to set up professional downfall we saw what's what? Pinata we saw what that looks like with regard to h h like that's not going well for Howard, and it's not going well for Howard because of everything that happened with Chuck. Now, some of that is Howard's doing for sure, but Jimmy put himself in a position where he was able to pass a lot of the guilt off to Howard and went Howard blame himself. And we end up with a Howard that is disheveled, Josh address a hard f- bomb on Jimmy and his office. Jimmy calls him a shitty lawyer, but a good salesman, which is not the worst way to describe Jimmy either. So there's a great scene there in that episode. One of the casualties of the time jump is that we don't see where Howard Howard ham when is ten months later yet that is definitely a big question. I mean, there's there's a couple of characters we don't get to check in on. Yeah, Nacho being the other big one where that that's got to drop at some point is what's been going on with Nacho this season in these past ten months, what's going on with Howard in these last ten months? And while we've been seeing so much success on Kim side at the line and for for Schweiker like you've got to imagine HMO whenever we check in on them, you can certainly imagine this area where Howard who was already in dire. Straits is beautiful platinum blonde hair might not be there anymore. Oh my gosh, a bald, Patrick Fabian no way this is money maker that is his tar, Gary unlocks? No, it's not going to happen. I won't let it happen. Yeah. His trademark hair that we saw Jimmy mimic in season one. No, that can't happen God. That would be terrible. But I mean, he's already loosening is tie and not having his like tyrod and stuff like that. So what's next for Howard Hamlin. But yeah, we've seen Jimmy have create a negative professional vortex. In this series already. So it's not shocking to think that it might happen with him. I think she's too smart for that. I think she understands what she can and can't get away with Jimmy created his own negative professional vortex with Davis and main put the commercial out there, knowing that he didn't have approval to do it and shot first and ask questions later, and Kim knows the consequences of what happened with that. I don't see her making that mistake with regard to Hugh Ababba now I think she's got latitude had Schweickart and Coakley. I don't think she's going to put herself in a position where she harms herself with Mesa Verde. I mean, it's possible that Mesa Verde might have a problem with her actions. We'll see how this all plays out. I don't. I don't. I don't know. That's only assuming that that's what she's going to do based on her to kill a Mockingbird nature and the fact that she's buying all those office supplies for all. I know she's going to donate those two boys and Girls Club in her plane is separate. So I guess on how this plays out. But that seems to be very in keeping with her character. And I don't think it's so sideways that it's something she. Can't get away with. So we will see, but I agree that once you'll is out of the way, this is a problem. Speaking of things being out of the way, though we talked about Nacho Varga. I will say, this is a criticism I have of show where I was desperate for a time jump. At many respects, we had Nacho on full boy like the guy was dying in pa-papa's living room, Josh. And now we've skipped ten months and we don't know. I guess he's just recovered and he's under gushing. Thanks is fine. I expect he's physically okay, and I imagined that the ark for for nachos, Eddie is continuing to to be in the employ the secret employees of Gus, but but you've got to wonder like how far along in terms of his psychological recovery after the shit storm. He's been in through season four so far. But I mean, I think that the answers to those questions are coming. I just think that there's so much business that has to be attended to here with the process of this final thrust for the Jimmy and Kim relationship potentially that that has to be the vast majority of the focus on on the story this week. It's just weird because Nacho wasn't NPR either. And so sure he's got a couple of time. You've got a couple of times where now it's an issue with win better, call Saul, right? I mean, sometimes they backburner these storylines in the show per Mike's not season finale or whatever happens happens, but yeah, that just it's just something that's out there. He's in the employees of Gus fring. The cousins went back to the went back south of the border. Seemingly because the heat was too hot after everything that happened. So yeah, I mean, maybe he's just been laying low and working with Gus fring in some way, shape or form and running some local drug stuff. And that's at so I guess it just seemed like he was so close with everything that was happening. He was like right at the verge of falling completely apart. And then we've put that on the burner now for like nine months span. So I guess we'll just we'll just meet Nacho where he is, and we'll see where that takes us. And that'll be that. I mean it just it's just a shame. I don't know if you had to guess because we had a hint in pinata at the beginning, one of the movies that was suggested was a real movie from nineteen Ninety-three Howards end Josh. If you had to guess, would you, would you say it was character is more likely not to survive season for Howard or Nacho? I think not to survive season for not to survive. I feel like nachos got more story ahead of him than Howard Hamlin does that Howard while Patrick baby and is great as that character. I feel like. His role in the story feels like it is. It is diminishing like he's a, he's a character where I understand why better call Saul has not found a ton of us for Howard Nacho, like you said was in full blast for so much of this season so far that I'm still very curious as to where things are going with Nacho. Whereas with with Howard, I'm fine with him being used fairly sparingly because it really does seem like is it's we're at Howards end or at least very close so gun to my head and please don't do that. I'm going to pick Howard to leave the show before the end of season four sooner than Nacho at the very least. Yeah. The only potential plot armor that he has is the flash forward to breaking bad time line seen from this season where Jimmy and Francesca are shredding and are about to go to the vacuum cleaner salesman. And Jimmy gives Francesca very specific time and says, if I'm if I'm not there do this and he, he gives her a legal referral. Says, tell Jimmy Sanchia. And so I do wonder if that legal referral was was h. HMO Howard or maybe that was Kim, we don't know yet, but if that's Howard and then that may be as a little bit of armor for Howard to survive. But we have you said, Howard hasn't been sleeping, he's falling apart. And now we've jumped forward ten months to Howard Hamlin that we see a hairless Howard would not be crazy. So around Howard, perhaps around Howard like Ron Howard, but rounder. I don't know exactly where we'll see Howard, but I'm not looking forward to that. Hopefully they don't go the way Josh misses Strauss MRs Strauss normal. All right. The very sad for MRs Strauss, very sad for Jimmy, right. Like this is I think he took this death harder than he took the death of Chuck. He'll out himself. So Mike emotionality in on that phone call. Yeah. And going home and watching the tape, you know he was upset about what happened with Strauss. He was also asking about the alpine shepherd boy, perhaps not because he wanted to know about Clarence and if he graduated college, but perhaps because he wanted to get the alpine shepherd boy, but he had his left in left to interpretation. I chose to look at charitably, but they're certainly in fact, rob would not. I human rob. I knew I was thinking I was like, rob is going to say, Jimmy, wanted to go rip that old ladies wake off and that alpine shepherd boy from morale while he was asking immediately. But I agree with you more charitable. He was just curious. That's what he remembered about her. She brought humble into his life, so that's that. But I mean, you're right open to interpretation for sure. But this is a Jimmy McGill who's dealing with that, and he's feel he feels this somebody that played a moment in his life, not just in that first season, but in the second and third is well, she was at the disbarments trial. She was in Volve with the commercial for Davis in Maine. This is somebody who played a role throughout all three seasons. So we're shedding a lot of these things behind with Jimmy McGill. We're leaving behind the Jimmy mcgeough life and he is fully becoming Saul Goodman, and this is part of it as well for sure. All right. So there's two other storylines from something stupid that we should talk about. There's everything that's going on with Gus. There's everything that's going on with Mike, which spikes engine is going on with Gus, but Mike is more directly involved. Which one do you wanna talk about? There's only a couple of scenes between these two storylines let's talk about. Let's talk about Gus for a minute. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. That's what I wanted to talk about to. I was trying to subtly drop some clues. That is what I wanted you to check out. Were you knocking glass off of a. Trey table, and that's you wanted me to bend over and pick it up. Is that what it was ridiculous stuff going on here with with Hector Salamanca who is clearly improving to the point that we see him in better call Saul where he or in breaking bad, rather where he is able to communicate by tapping his finger on a table. But we were not appreciating at any point in time until now or at least I was in. I don't think that the show had ever made it clear that Hector could have improved potentially a lot more beyond. Ends up in breaking bad and Gus is the one who is he's very closely monitoring all of hector's progress, and he really watches the tape and sees hector's spilling the Cup over so that he could check out the nurse. And he realizes that Hector is still in there and Hector is trapped in there. And if he no longer has this rigorous work towards making sure that Hector is at least some semblance of himself. Now he can really have Hector in hell, and that's incredible. I, I don't know about you. I definitely did not see anything like that coming. No, it's great, but it's also an without spoiling it. It's such an achilles heel for everything that happens with with between the Hector and Gossen all the characters and breaking bad. This is we're seeing a great story and it's great character stuff. Giancarlo Esposito can barely hide his glee and he realizes he has Hector alive. And he has Hector in present in the moment brain wise, but completely ruined physically such that he is a complete prisoner events. He can barely hide his glee, and yet it is this torture is glee that will cause problems for him in the future. So this is not something that that is joyful story. This is not something to celebrate. What we're seeing is, is the early seeds of something that will cause problems as I said later on down the line. So this is all great stuff, but it's really dark man. Fisa Gus fring is a monster, and we saw him like a tiger shark earlier in the season. When are they are Turow nachos, buddy gets got by Gus fring and that dark parking lot. But this is some dark shit for sure like this is some serial killer stuff from Gus spring. But I mean, it makes sense in in the light of what happened in the previous week in pinata when he when Gus goes, and he tells Hector though, Hector cannot hear him the story of the animal that he trapped, you know about of pure spite. This injured animal who. He kept alive because he had like stolen from his fruit tree or whatever. And like it's very, that's very much certainly in the large scheme of things foreshadowing his relationship with Hector. But I think that there was no way to know that was also setting up the fact that Gus is going to elect to have Hector in this state forever when he could have chosen to have Hector get healthy for whatever reason. So those instincts that have been lifelong within gusts not only being somebody who is prone to vengeance, but somebody who is prone to creative vengeance, that that is something that's been within him for a very, very long time. And now I think in in the wake of this episode, we are beginning to appreciate the extent of that creativity. The extent of the creativity, as I said, a serial killer stuff. Yes, it's the stuff of legendary madman. So good for Gus fring I guess great television man h h Holmes here, like this is terrible stuff. I think it's a great character note. I think for for that to be, you know, we certainly know that the how the have Agusan Hector stuff is going to bear out if you if you made it that far through breaking bad. And I think for this added layer, this is this is the kind of thing that I really enjoy better call Saul foreign. How enriches the other show that we have seen. I really. And it'd be it pays off. You're right. You're right to connect connected to the monologue from last week. It is almost two convenient in a way that ten months later or wherever our long time jump was. We have a moment that really shows exactly what Gus was talking about in that monologue, but the two are very directly connected for sure. And this is somebody that he has ensnared now, and it's somebody that has emerged broken from the snare and that he will now choose to fight to the death essentially. And that's where we renew. These two characters are pitted against each other. He's going to let him suffer. And we know that this is a, this is a Gus fring who is a monster in that way. Very fascinating to see that play out in real time in a similar dinner, Josh, too. When he asked Walter white to guess in the at the end of season, three of breaking bad, I think it's an advocate episode very, very funny stuff, but also very dark. He's handling a knife in his kitchen, making the exact same meal and. Firing a doctor in the middle of conversation because he realized when he catches the eye acting of Hector Salamanca and peop- sash that he's in there and he's alive. Heck, Gus, Gus is he's so good. He's just as tension to details, just incredible. I mean, was that you know exactly just like shades of him, knowing that he should not go to his car. You know what I mean? Like it's it's so great. The other thing that we get from the ten month time jump is the the progress on what's happening with the meth lab at the laundromat and how verners crew is acclimating to life at this secret headquarters that Mike has pimped out for them with basketball courts and pool tables and all the brother. He's built a German, big brother house, Josh, and of rob were here. That's what we'd be talking of course, but I'm here and we don't talk about big brother when I am the jury house. Right? It's it's Ponderosa. Sure. Sure for them. Fair enough. But no. I mean, if this is big brother, I have to imagine what that even really watch. A lick of big brother that this is the hardest version of big brother. There is ten months, big brother. That's a lot of big brother. Yeah, it's pretty bad so you can see you can tell these people. It's really wearing on them, like the stress of this job that they have not seen the cold light of day since we last saw or known the warm touch of a woman, Josh. Indeed, they're in need of some are in our, yeah, that's what they call it. The military clearly Reich is Mike understands what what's being put down there for sure. It's it's rough. Yeah. The big brother house. She would at least have the potential for show manses. This is this is a guys are just drilling all day long and then they're coming back home and watching soccer and getting drunk. It's like not a great life for them. At the end of the day. I don't know. I feel a little angry about this though, in some respects, because there's a scene here, a great scene where Mike is learning that his name in German has some meaning like what was it again? It was willful strength. There's some world strength there will will world-class strength or something. Strongest man in the world. Trout. So he's learning all that and he's there. But then Werner is is like you have to understand these guys were heater. They thought it was only going to be eight months, and I wanted to say, we'll lose fault. Does that of course, like why? Why do they think it was going to be eight months? You said it would only be eight months, like it's your fault. Werner you jerk. So this is your fault. You put all these guys in this position, and I know you think they're such nice boys, but they're causing all these problems. Now, Josh, I'm teen KYW though. Like I don't blame KAI for this situation whatsoever. Some other dope caused a construction accident. Why getting blamed for this? Mike does not like KAI like Mike doesn't like him. KYW has really stuck in Mike's craw from that one time. That was like kind of rude to him. But I mean, we don't know what Mike has observed from KAI in ten months. You know, he said, keep an eye on that guy. Keep an eye on that guy, and that guy is exactly what the actor's name who plays sky is Ben Bella, boom. Oh, I love that. Ben, Bella boom. There's name my favorite line from the fifth element band, boom. Yeah, but he doesn't like this guy. He's not a fan so he hasn't been a fan for ten months, and so he's just gonna. He's gonna scapegoat him. I, I wonder, you know, certainly, we've seen Mike kill outside of the context of being a police officer at this point in the show already. But do you imagine Mike killing KYW? Like is that something that we are building towards like Verner doesn't want to lose this guy, but Mike really does. And can you imagine that being something that is pushing Mike closer to being sort of like the RAD hitman that we're going to see him be breaking bad? Certainly possible possible. I think that we will see we will see Nacho have to be put up to that. That's another person that you could say. Maybe he's in the realm where he has to pull that off. I don't know the truth of that. I mean, obviously, I don't know because I haven't seen it. I'm wondering who did we see him kill on better call Saul besides the cops, I'm trying to remember your memory of it would be much better than mine. 'cause I was saying. That I'm not sure that we've seen that he wanted to kill Hector, so he was ready to kill. And I think that's the distinction, right? Is that initially in season one going into season two, he was not willing to kill. He wanted to beat him up rather than do what Nacho paid them to do, which is kill to go exactly. Wanna take him out because seemingly he didn't want his hands dirty in that way. He's gone out of his way to not kill in the desert as well. When he pulls off a lot of these complicated Capers to rob trucks and to set up other trucks. He's not shooting into the sky, not at people, but he was ready to kill Hector Salamanca for the crime by the way of killing us, civilian. Killing a guy who just seemingly was trying to be a good Samaritan with a truck driver that makes it up in the desert. So he was ready to kill Hector Salamanca for that. He did not ultimately do that. And I don't know that we've subsequently seen him kill, but I think you're right that he's crossed the threshold in that we've. Seen that he's willing to do it. So if he's willing to do it, what maybe the story from Mike at this point is that guy is really not a guy who's in the game, at least not directly. And if KAI had broken him down over these months and to the point where he's willing to take some action to protect gusts interest, we know that that's something he's more than willing to do later on. So he's got to get there. And that's the breaking bad story of Mike trout in the context of better call Saul him actually breaking bad. We're certainly seemingly on that path whether that will happen or not. I don't know, but I think you could see that it could happen for sure. I think one of the things that we need to see with Mike is that like we've seen him kill out of a need for vengeance with the killings that happened in that flashback and season one that has already been done, but we've seen him shy away from contract killing so far. And we know that that's something that he is going to be comfortable doing in the future is that kind of wet work. So I think what we need to see is. That we have yet to see is when does Mike urban trout look at killing as little more than a business expense where it's really nothing more than just transactional and just something that's part of his gig that hasn't really connected yet and the simmering feud between himself and KAI. I wonder if that is something that we are building toward and maybe even something where especially because we know that Bernard thinks that this is a guy who is essential to the crew. He's a good boy. He's part of he's one of my best that if Mike is going to try and extricate this guy from the situation, he is going to need to do it in some way that is anonymous. So is it going to be through the are and are like, is there is like this is the aren't are going to provide some level of cover for him, waiting in the shadows like the Batman that he is and like bowling a page out of the Gus spring playbook and putting a bag over this guy's head or something like that. A spixii eight him. Those are the kinds of things that I'm that I'm thinking about in terms of what might could do to KAI just to to make it look. A little more accidental, but still be very business oriented in his mind that this is going to get things back on track even though I think you're right. I think his anger is misdirected towards this person, especially that it does. I mean, we we probably are going to see some are in our, he's probably going to take him out to some of the CD underbelly of Albuquerque, but it's not. It's not something. I mean, maybe does something at that point that makes it impossible to let him just skate like maybe he commits a crime or draws unwanted like thorns, our attention to the circumstances that means that Mike has no choice, but to do that. Otherwise the whole thing is shot and he's got too much loyalty to the operation and he feels like it's part of his job at this point that you could foresee that circumstance for. Sure. I don't think he's ready to just take off the board, but he certainly is is heading in that direction for sure. And it's rough. I mean, Coggin killed by bitter jury. That's pretty bad to lose chairman, big brother. Your anything else from these two episodes that you went ahead on before. We close out, it's it's. It's fascinating to me that that that we've got the position. I mean, we had Mike apologizing to Stacy and we have Mike, we saw two of before this. The big blow up that he headed Mark Jackson therapy where he said, this guy's fraud, I can tell, you know, and he's apologizing to Stacey for that, but he's still clearly is carrying around so much guilt about what happened with his son and they're, they're in that position. So we don't really know what's going on inside my head, but apparently at some point he'd learned to yell in German boys stop. Yes. Well, you know, ten months is enough time to learn boys, stop in German dodgems early, sees working on it. Yeah, he's definitely working on it. And then the other thing is, are there really and this is I'm speaking for rob here. So shout out to you. My boy, are there really that many criminals and Albuquerque, Jackson Johnny could sell that many burner phones? Yeah. I mean, he's at a very. A very lucrative time in these past ten months, and you just have to wonder how big that market is barely decently big. It's certainly sizable. I think there's probably some repeat customers. I think that in the last impera we had a, we had a statement of some sort that these these only had like three hundred minutes on them or something to that effect. So I think that's probably part of it for sure is that there's that, but I definitely know that rob would have highlighted that because there's your so many who seemingly is selling hundreds and hundreds of these burner phones. And I just got a lot of repeat customers. Maybe that has to be. I'm trying to think if there's anything else. Is there anything else you wanted to highlight? No, I think that we, I think we touched. I think that there's, there's a lot of a lot of different possibilities up in the air. I do feel like we're just at that breaking point for for Jimmy and Kim, which is upsetting. I'm not looking forward to that, and I keep trying to hope that it's like going to be some sort of mundane thing. But obviously it's not going to be that it's going to be very terrible and I don't wanna see it. I mean, it's some kind of head and they, they do. They have in the past in front of these issues. They have talked on some level, so we'll we'll see what this looks like they, she really was giving him a lot of latitude. She had rich Weicker in pinata, say like these things are all different. Gotta take them day by day. Like could be anybody. You've had a lot of people asking after Jimmy, so I'm not sure she knows necessarily how to proceed. One of the things I'm not seeing though, and I thought I would see more of it as I'm not seeing a lot of the guilt in Kim over what happened to Howard. She seems to have back Bernard that herself, and maybe that's why, because she's doing she's in the good deeds club. Like maybe that a huge part of why she's giving back to the community because she feels she has to put some good karma into the universe where everything that happened a with Chuck, but I just don't see her carrying around a lot of that y'all right now. No. Well, that's why I wonder like just how bad of a situation is Howard in right now. Probably not to the point that it is very obvious that he is just like at the edge of his at the end of his rope, open. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, because he certainly is carrying that guilt around, but we have seen, we saw her shout him down, but we haven't seen much else, but I feel like she fell. She was responsible in part for what happened to Chuck a lot last season. They're just haven't seen it as much this season. So that may be something that comes out when they do potentially have a confrontation that you like the there were two montages in this episode. How about the big rock candy mountain? The hall. I loved that that song with second my head for good couple of hours after watching the episode, the cops have wooden legs, Josh. Now I want to know more about the lemonade fountain. It's also great like the chickens leehar soft boiled eggs, like there's good stuff in Hobo heaven. There take me to Hobo heaven, heaven, Berl lives. We're going to have great stories to tell feel like, oh heavens, not a bad place. You gotta know the Hobo code to get in there though. Hobo code. I've not learned lives. Here's what I saw in chalk on the outside of your house. One time I don't wanna talk about that. Yeah, that's really this is one little Easter egg that I've got in my notes here. The other guy that was busting the pinatas with Hewlett pinata previously seen on better call Saul in the episode where Mike confronts the guys in the parking garage where he shows up for job. The first time he ever meets Daniel worm learn or worm Lund price, the guy who he represents with the drug deals with Nacho when he first shows up. There's that big mouthy guy who's got all the guns and he's ready to show off everything. And then there's another huge guy in the corner there. And Mike gets all the guns off the mouthy guy. And he turns and looks at the big guy in the big just cheeses. It runs away down into the parking garage. That's the guy who was busted up the bananas, clearly a guy, a regular member of the vets like roster of just criminals for higher incredible. I think on the show that call him man mountain. I think that's his character name. So that's where we've seen that guy before. Or for sure that feels like a fair name, man, mountain men miss a little bit like an NFL often looks a little bit like Andrew Whitworth, Cincinnati, Bengals, and LA Rams. So all right. I mean, obviously, if I don't know if this is the other thing that I'm, I'm just have, I'm officially lost. Pain is very special. Whoa. Is us alot? Whoa, is me. All right. Well, I think that that's good for our coverage here of better call salt. Thank you guys for during me in the absence of rob again, Josh sending all of our best to Robin his family and and hopefully he will be back next week TD on exactly how that will play out. But of course better call Saul. We'll be back and podcast will be back as well, at least with Antonio Massaro hanging in there and Tonio. You know, it won't be back next week is our coverage of USA networks, the center because it's about to wrap it is about to wrap. We add another similar delay with that show due to just shake ups behind the scenes here, but we will be back to recap the final two. Of the center. The finale will be airing Wednesday evening. We'll be back before the end of the week with coverage of the final two episodes of the center. I'm certainly ready Josh to talk some center with you looking forward to how that all wraps up if you not aware Josh. And I have been talking about that all season long here at Poche. Oh, Rico's, Josh. How can people get our podcast EPO show recaps post show recaps com slash itunes. That's yeah, that's a you. Songa fight it. That's great. You can also send us feedback, Josh. How can people send us feedback show recaps com slash feedback. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. And do you know what the Email addresses for the sh- isn't it? Boehner call saw pleasure. You guys dot com. I think it's BC. Dot com. I didn't want to say something stupid, like I love you that that that's it. That's all I got. I want to thank everybody for their patients in this. I know a lot of people tweeted at me or center thoughts in for Robin, we certainly appreciate that. We certainly appreciate everybody's patience and understanding at this time. So thanks again, everybody and Josh. Anything else? No, just ain't Karen. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it, please. You were great. Thank you again. Thank you. Everybody by.

Jimmy Kim Wexler Wexler McGill Saul Josh Witter Chuck Jimmy McGill Schweiker Coakley Schweickart Howard Howard ham Salt Goodman Jimmy SPD Jimmy Mikio Rob Antonio Massaro Antonio Pixar Andrew Stanton John Carter Truecar
Better Call Saul | Season 5, Episode 9 Recap: Bad Choice Road

Post Show Recaps

1:39:56 hr | 10 months ago

Better Call Saul | Season 5, Episode 9 Recap: Bad Choice Road

"Better Call Saul season. Five episode. Nine bad choice road is over. But we're just getting started here at post show recaps. Hello again everyone. I am Antonio Navarro and I'm joined on this good choice road by my friend. Josh Winkler Josh. Our you until you tell me that again. Just tell that again. We're on well. The road of good choices car died on the road and I just here I am just one more time would be great if you could just tell me like all of that just one more time you know. I was going along the road. It's a it's a good choice road There's a lot of good choices longer. I made good choices. My car broke down because they're bullet holes in this podcast. I don't we definitely need to talk about Jimmy McGill versus. This is the Wexler versus McGill. That scene at the end a so tense so tense. I finally unclenched here a couple of days later and I'm not even going to say what I was clinching because it's bad I mean a lot of a lot of pain episodic K. goals. This is very difficult this episode the end of it very difficult We've been saying it's difficult for a while. At what point Josh. I want to ask you this right up from the jump. At what point do we say you know what Kim Wexler is made her own choices? She's in the game now and she knows what what she's doing and why she's made her own choices. It's time to stop being nervous for Kim. Wexler like she some Damsel in distress and start saying Kim gets what she gets. This is her choice at this point. I mean that that that can be true simultaneously with. I don't want anything bad to happen to Kim. Wexler like in the same way that Jesse pink man made bad choices in God and really deep. He Killed Gale Becker. He made that choice split. That's breaking bad. We talk about breaking bad here. Not GonNa Tower spoiler alert and breaking bad. It's fair game. All that happened already. Why are you watching? Better call without breaking bad knowledge. He killed he killed gale. Shot him in the face and like I still didn't want him to spend a year in Nazi torture. I still didn't WANNA him watch Andrea get shot in the head. I still didn't want to see all of the terrible things that were happening in his life. And I don't want any of that to happen to Kim. Even if maybe Kim should be heating some of the wisdom from some of the other people around her some of the people who maybe are sensing that Jimmy is is no good and maybe she is sensing it a little less easier than than she should be. I think she knows though I mean I think there's the sense is definitely there. I we have to talk about Kim. Wexler in the context of the choices that she makes for sure she loves loss. 'cause Kim Wexler. She loves a loss. 'cause she will pursue a lost cause at her own expense pro bono by the way. This is something that she will put her stake in so it is no surprise that we've talked at length this podcast or that she would be interested in. Mcgill the way that she is be there for him as a partner the way that she is when she tells. Lolo in this incredible scene at the end of the episode here that by the way he didn't lie to you he doesn't lie to anybody he doesn't lie to his clients. She knows that's a lie. J. Knows that's a lie. But lalla knows that's a lie to wallow has just seen Jimmy the whole dog and pony show for judge by the way about las fake family so Llanos that McGill is a liar and what he knows when he hears that out of Kim's mouth. Is Kim as a liar as well. So Kim knows everybody in the room knows that the Jimmy McGill is a liar. That's all goodman is a liar. No matter that Kim says the name and actually says he saw goodman she knows the truth about. What's going on there so I just? Her eyes are pretty wide open. I don't think at this point anyone's pulling the wool over her eyes about. I don't think Jimmy comes home out of the desert alive. And she finds coffee. Mug with bullet holes in it and she gives them the opportunity to come clean and even says I don't need you to and then he tells her a half truth. She knows she knows who she is. She literally in bed with I. Don't at this point. I don't feel like anyone was being pulled over her. Is she starting to pull the wool herself? Yeah but do you think that that equation changes by the end of this episode? This is very quick baiting Lee but also accurately putting the headline for my interview with Tony Dalton who plays Lallo that better call Saul just had its very own. I'm the one who knocks moment that it's not just Heisenberg. Who has the monopoly on being the big bad boogeyman here comes? Follow the monster in the House as Tony Dalton described it to me in his in his interview with me where he's talking about how this is like temple sacred space. It's Kim in Jimmy's apartment. They've had fights here but they also eat ice cream and watch westerns and atticus finch is going to trial and all sorts of stuff. That's you know very much their lives in very closely connected to just what they've got going on and now a cartel ban is in the Spanish seemingly ready to like rip Jimmy's face off if if he doesn't like what what he's selling like you feel the danger in this moment you talked about the clenching. Antonio you did. He'll never forget that you discussed the clenching. I couldn't watch the scene. I had to listen to it. I was listening to the scene knowing that. Mike is across the way with the sniper rifle knowing that Kim keeps walking into the into the shot knowing that Kim is not on breaking bad for whatever reason that is and constantly afraid that this character. Who even if she's making horrible choices. Somebody who I loved dearly in terms of my lake fictional family might fictional character family. I Love Kim. Weser what to see. No harm happen to her. And it's largely thanks to racy fantastic performance in the writing of her and it was one of the worst things that I had to sit through on television in quite a while and I've watched the news recently So it was. It was just recently and I had to look away. I have like my headphones on so is literally staring at the ground. Emily was in the room with shows. Like what are you doing? What is wrong with you? I can't talk to talk to me right now. Things are happening. Pretty sure someone who I care about. It's about to die so what it's a TV show. It's going to be fine. And that was the feeling that I had. And by the end of it after. She gives the performance of her life. And convinces Lallo to leave. Allow does leave that look. That's exchanged between her and Jimmy. Is that not a look of recognition of okay too far too far. I'm getting off of bad choice. Road exits here. I know it's a little late. But the the best time to leave was yesterday second-best time is right now possibly the thing about it is in that moment what it felt like to me. Is that Lolo? The Monster and the house was very slowly. Chipping away at what Precious Little Sanity Saul Goodman Aka? Jimmy McGill hat When we saw the scene earlier in the episode Jimmy McGill is having very serious issues with. Ptsd with the problems. He's experienced from his time in the desert. He talks to Mike. Certainly not the best therapist about this problem. Although Mike is able to regurgitate some wisdom that he heard it one of the support group meetings that he goes to was Stacey Mike does not. He's not the most sympathetic here. Let's just say this. Jimmy says what like billions of people on the planet earth and I had to be stuck to you as the only person I can talk about with this So Jimmy has certainly suffered this episode and when Lalla was applying the pressure it seems like each time the Jimmy starts to tell the story he tells it a little bit differently. I than obviously on one level the writing is suggesting that the Jimmy Gill Way to do this is to try to talk his way out of trouble by changing the details a little bit not changing the heart of the story but adding some details like oh. Your cousins. Were very nice. Oh Yeah and then I did this Oh just trying to embellish slightly to hope by embellishing slightly. The thing we'll change lava eventually cuts to the point. Says they're bullet holes in your car. What do you think it sounds like? Jimmy's about to crack he has previously. Said you want the money if you want the money back. It's in a bag in the other room. You can have it. What we know also is. What else is in the bag in the other room? Is the Coffee Cup with bullet holes in it? Kim knows this as well correct because Kim knows this as well I think at that point what she standing up and doing is saying. I'M NOT GONNA get US killed like I'm going to stand up and say no no money. No bag you get out of my House. Lallo like you get your own house in order. I think her intervention there is is to protect their necks. I don't think it's To basically th that she is I think she is in that moment displaying. The ingenuity that is needed to actually be a friend of the cartel to actually be the kind of person who can work this year. What I want to know from you is God by the end of that episode. You're talking about the look between Jimmy and Kim As like I'm out my question for you is lola leaves. We don't know what his agenda is. He's going to go to a different place in Mexico. Whatever the conversation that he had with Kim when Kim really gives them that come Jesus talk the same talk. She's given Kevin Wachtel The Saint Talk to an extent that she's given rich Schweickart We see this come to Jesus talk from Kim to Lolo it has some effect is Lal impressed by this. Or does he see her as a threat Where do you think is Visa Kim at the end of this episode? And where do you think Kim is allow? It sounds to me like you're saying that she might look Jimmy and saying that's the last Straw. I think she might be going further down the rabbit hole here. Oh God I hate that but what you put in my head Antonio and I. I don't know how you get there. So if you can string theory this out for me if you can get like all of the get the blackboard up We're trying to figure out we're trying to figure out why Kim isn't on breaking bad. Is it because breaking bad? Just didn't show us. Any more of Jimmy McGill other than the Saul Goodman Veneer. And she's not associated with that. Is it that simple. And like she's still in his life but we just don't see her. Is it worse is it? Death is worse. Did she get disbarred and she wants nothing to do with Jimmy. Is it worse? She went with the vacuum cleaner. You know and got Ed Galbraith data town and is going to pop up in a future gene seen Hashtag no gene seen or and this was one that had never even occurred to me until you talked about how this is Kim showing the ingenuity of what it would be way to be a friend of the cartel is there a world where Qin becomes cartel lawyer or is she running yeah or she running Saul Goodman like as she basically the boss of the boss right and I say that because the the shell company that Jimmy Uses Esau Goodman in breaking bad is called ice station Zebra Associates. It is has been seen throughout the Better Call Saul Universe as a nod to Kim Wexler and has a nod to his relationship with Kim. That was a reference to of her father's favorite movies a reference that is mentioned in better call Saul and it is something that when she and Jimmy run a scam on one of the marks that they meet the hotel. Maybe the Tequila bottle mark himself. They have the him make out the check to ice station zebra associated so the question is is there a through line not just in name only or not just in some kind of loving connection to Kim? But she's the one who brings up to low at the end of the scene. Have you never heard of shell companies? And you've never heard of the Cayman Islands. Considering the fact that she mentioned shell companies. We have the shell company that is named in reference to her and as a thing that she is that she is connected to and considering how she calls. Lolo fully out on the carpet there. I don't think by the way that anything she said. Other than the fact that's all good man doesn't lie. I don't think anything she said was untoward or undeserving. A Philip loud. There's a possibility Lila walks away from that conversation. Saying you know Goodman's fine. He's good at what he does but she's she wears the pants in this relationship. Yeah I just had never really considered that as a possibility. That could be what he's walking away from it with. I I get the sense that a lot of people literally la literally dodged a bullet. Maybe Jimmy Kim did as well by Kim doing what she does and getting out of the room I think Lilo leaves and Jimmy and Kim are not really thought to him anymore. I'm sure that he will reverberate in their brains for a good deal longer. Yes and I am. I am you know. I would not be surprised if they've remained factors in his thought making his decision making but I I don't think that they are the most pressing thing like when he says to Nacho going back to Mexico. But they're not going back to two where they just were going somewhere else that. I think he's got something else in mind. He knows that. Like something fishy is going nine. And he wants to regroup whether or not. That's because he specifically wants to like dig into Jimmy and Kim more. That just doesn't feel right to me as far as his next step. It doesn't to me either. It just what made that enter into my head? A little bit was wondering like how in response to what he just experienced in that room. How does he know to change his plan? And what does he change it to? And of course part of my thinking in that regard is does he change it to something? That is terrible for the people that we care about for Jimmy and Kim like does. His pivot here means that those two are going to be even more endangered than they. Just were like. He walks out of that room and saying she's trouble like she has her head on straight and he's traveled because he's weak but he's good enough to lie to me and he's dogged enough to drag seven million across the desert and by the way there were bullet holes and I know neither see nor hear what pulled him out of that desert with those bullet holes so he's working with someone else and if he's working with someone else and I can't trust him either like I have to watch my back and they're part of what I have to watch and that so that's the biggest concern but my secondary concern or my secondary wonder is like maybe he walks out of their thinking. Man She just read me straight to fill like she knows like all the worst things about me and she called me outright on the carpet and she had the guts to do it. That's the kind of person I need on my side. These are my lawyers. This is my legal team. Beathy reaction that people get from. That's like tends to be the reaction to Kim. Yes like when Kim Wexler Spradlin? Yeah but like when Kim Kim dresses people down like often like either like you know. They're shaking in their boots afterwards. They're like impressed and they want more of that right so you can. You can see that beam take a lot to get lallo shaking in his boots great boots so they may be but I think for him to be impressed by her Yeah I could see him walking away from that interaction like I like her. Yeah already sort of was right. Even though I think he had the upper hand against her win she came to the jail to try to get the information from him and they have that great shot of course of him standing behind her slightly out of focus while he stretching out looking like a serial killer. I mean literally like some Hannibal Lecter. Shit like looming over her shoulder and the look on racy. Horns face just petrified She really played that well like okay. She was ready to come in here and she bucked up and got her self prepared to have this conversation with this killer but she was scared by the end of it but this time she says let's face it. Everybody knows you killed that guy like she is not intimidated in that moment at all. Jimmy is stammering and he's about to give up the shop and she is ready to step up and shut it down and provides I think in the moment very quickly a very plausible explanation by the way Kim able to sweep that up almost instantaneously. Mike. Victor no-one on that end was able to sweep it up without an instant like they had time to clear that car away in the didn't like that's a major fumble isn't it. Yeah for sure for sure unless it's like how did they get back there? Did they not know exactly where that was anymore? Like the reason why Mike was able to track that before was because he was literally tracking Jimmy. They don't have that anymore. They don't have the ability to go back to that exact spot you know. It was on the road so because it was on the road. I feel like that's how lawler was able to track but the risk of like having somebody who going around there bullet he did have the flat flat flat of other cars away. Yeah very very good seasons fifty two level really really good but I did bring the flatbed out. They say like all the cars are gone right so they just left. Jimmy's there to yet. That does seem like a big oversight well and it was the other part of this is this is certainly not let. Let's nitpick better call Saul but I was thinking about it when we were back in the desert this time because what we have is. We have a lot of watchers watching. We have a lot of people. We see scenes of gusts men at various times. Following Nacho around Mike just seems to know that Lilo is on his way to Jimmy and Kim's so there is on these people constantly right and it made me wonder like how in God's name what what happens like how did Mike know exactly to get on that Ridge at that time. How did he get into position so quickly and be able to draw a bead on those people in the middle of the desert where there's literally very little cover like? I don't understand how he was on that Hill. We didn't talk about it last episode because we were just so in all of the way it was constructed. But just looking back on it now with Lallo. And Nacho in that Desert Anoxia Lolo having a sort of six cents himself saying lawyers said his car broke down. We just went through that entire area. I didn't see a car. Where was it like? Shouldn't I've seen it by now so I do think it's interesting that that Mike is able to just draw beat on lallo constantly I don't know when the man sleeps but he is seemingly on high alert watching every move when I say this because I want to transition slightly. We'll we'll we'll talk about more about him and Jimmy for sure but I want to transition slightly and ask you like Laos has. He's going to Mexico. He changes his plan slightly. He was always going to go to Mexico. But it's going to deeper Mexico. Whatever that is because it's different than New Mexico Bush. We don't talk about deeper Mexican. We don't talk about Mexico. That's all we talked about. Nothing happened happened in deep state Mexico. Please don't say deep state you're going to trigger me speaking of triggers The the situation with Lalo there some plan in play we talk last week a lot about who could have set up Lolo To have that money stolen like who would have had to beat on that. We found out this boy. One BOLSA Bolsa. My boy won't balls golf stimulating his way through cartel life Just just living the good life lock vida loca the crazy life and he's just hang down there and Gus knows right away when Mike says these guys were hired out probably Colombian Gaza's like I know who it was and he calls them up immediately and all but says like Oh. Yeah that's too bad. That LALLA was coming South here. I guess that means your problems are going to stop now. It doesn't seem to. You is your read on that one. Bolsa tried to intercept the bail money because he wanted Lallo to stay in jail because he wanted everything between gus and Lal Stop and this was an easy way to do it. Yeah that makes sense that tracks right there. That's a pretty tidy explanation that he could sell Donald Donald Patio. We know that he loved Hector Salamanca at the very least so I could see. Probably a big wallow guy. I would expect that. Make sense right so to kind of like cleanly. Get Out of the picture. Just take that money out. Bailing him out isn't an option. We don't have to go nuclear yet and like get him killed in prison. That's going to cause a lot of problems. This seems like a fairly reasonable bloodless way at least in terms of major players on the board. What's one dead lawyer right? So yeah it makes a lot of sense at that and he likes working with gusts that will ultimately be to his detriment in again despoil. Breaking bad won't work out well for one Bolsa there you know because of his continued working relationship with gus but for now he sees guesses like the rational guy to work with the actual profiteer will. Yeah Gus GUS EARNS GUSTS EARNER GUS is really generating that revenue and that sort of what bought one. Bolsa says is okay. Chicken the chicken man and the chicken makes it says. Oh baby like he says. I guess now that you know your problems gone. You're fine you're going to be okay but it seemed like Juan Bolsa Lallo on the board. I'm wondering do you think that's Lalo? His sniffed out. Like who would WanNa take me off the board if it wasn't a chicken man if he if he wasn't coming at me and he wasn't involved in this. I would imagine that lawler would probably think okay. If somebody tried to steal my money it was probably the chicken man but to the chicken know where my money was coming from and win like this is their or was it more likely. It was someone associated with the cartel. Right does he. Does he know for sure. It's not gusts is. He's still thinking about gusts as a possibility there. That's what I'm wondering like when you when you're getting back to like when we get back to whereas Lallo headed and what his plan would be. I think it's at least possible that he's considering that it's someone other than us but he has to figure what happened was okay. Someone tried to get this money. From McGill they shot at him. He got away did he. Get Away with someone's help. I don't know who could have gotten the money from him. And who would have tried to get the money from him and not my cousins like I don't know he's probably that's where the worker and his head and he may. What he may be doing is he may be saying. We're going further south because he may wanNA weigh it ought to. He May WanNa lay it all out to Juan Bolsa. He may want to say. Can I kill the chicken man life? Somebody tried to to seal my money like I had all these problems with him. Can't I just take him off? The board. The chicken man is like front and center in his brain. He goes and sees hacker. Salema probably the last time that he will ever visit with his uncle and he says like we're going to find ways to take the chicken may down. Don't you worry about that? Everything that's his will be ours and we know that that's not true But it seems like he has not lost sight of that so he may be going to the cartel to appeal and say. Can I take this guy off the board? I'm sick of this place and we've been talking last little while about envisioning scenario where. La doesn't make it out of better call saw when Jimmy shaking in his boots in breaking bad in his first episode and Better Call Saul and he talks about Lolo and Agnosio that he doesn't know that Lallo is gone. The deck is set for that right now right like it makes a lot of sense for for us to be going into a finale next week where you could imagine that. Lalla just scared the shit big bad wolf to his way through Jimmy. Kim's apartment left leaves them? I'm sure we're going to deal with the huge fall out of that will be a big piece of the finale. How that shakes out for their relationship. I expect to be a huge piece of the finale. And you can imagine a scenario then where they're terrified of Lolo forever even if they never see him again and it's just enough that the specter of Lalo looms large after something like that and those going south to make that pitch to Donald Addio one balser or both and in the process just like eats a bullet sandwich instead so that could be. That could make a lot of sense like if he goes down there and one ball says there and he's making the pitch to Donald One balsa about choose me. It's near chicken man. Well of those four people that were talking about three of them make it to breaking bad for sure right. So yeah it's you're right about that and it was like we were just saying like the chicken man's at earner and we already know from this season of better call. Saul that one while he seems to like Lallo knows. The lawler is a bit of a liability. The travel wire murder low hanging fruit. Do you see it. Yeah go for it. Lalo ability Lau ability sounds like a musical genre. Interrupted Intelligence Continue. It really does sound like a musical genre liability. This is but no this is this is something is already considering like even though he seems to like the guy the travel wire murder alone the very thing the seven million dollar bail was four is something that also has already sort of said to follow like. Hey look we don't do things that way on the side of the border and I think part of Gusts Strategy. Because Gus clearly has one with. Lalo is some kind of rope a dope. It's like you know what will help them get out of jail like we'll let him burn our place. We'll burn it down for him We'll let our dealers get arrested like we'll make it clear that he's really screwing with us so that we are just quietly taking the punches. Were not responding. We can't be seen to be responding is what he tells Mike but my question is like what is gus ultimate plan. That's what I was saying last week when I said it was possible that gus was involved with the money being stolen. He has some plan and the plan wasn't simply. I'm going to get Lalo in jail and then whoops I'm going to have to change my plan in reading bailed out like he was okay with getting him bailed out and it seems like his plan is to throw them at the mercy of Donald Audio and Juan Bolsa. Is that what it is well? If that was what the plan was it there has been. There's there's you know you got a little fly in my appointment. Right by the fact that one in my Biz we call this scooping. You got scooped right like you know. Basically one one Boston beat them to the punch that he decided to make no surprise the volume with which Lallo makes his announcement to the world that he's going to draw the attention of a couple of people who would like to turn that. Dial down that Gus Springs Plan for however he was going to counteract. Lalo is now aligned with one. Bolsa FOR SURE. They both clearly want a similar thing but it it based on the interaction between gusts and Balsa and by proxy of Gus Mike and one Balsa being in that equation. It seems like they were not you know in cahoots on this thing. So whatever is that. Gus was initially planning for. Lalo if he had a plan. I think now we'll just get it. Theoretically anecdotally right like whatever it was he was planning now significantly railroaded. That's interesting. I feel like it's still in play like that's that's the problem that I'm having. This is a I mean. I guess not because he does get bailed out and if that's what he wanted he wanted he wanted him to just build out so the thing that he wanted to have happened has still happened right. That's that's the thing is I? Gus fring smarter than I am at this point especially with regard to murder plans. And what he what he has been dealing with all season. Long is the Lilo Lilo low problem right the Lalu conundrum like what do we do about this guy. He hates me. He's coming after our business. He's a lot more aggravated and aggressive than some of these other people who just wanted to take the money off. The table right in front of me were pushed me a little bit or have problems with our deliveries like this is a guy who is significantly putting my business in jeopardy diming people out. I'm losing billions of dollars. Of course he's going to do something about it. Here's what happened so right now in post show recaps. We have some special edition. Final fantasy seven remake coverage happening here on the podcast. Japanese ROLE. Playing game remake of a classic. It's fantastic guy that many sleepless nights playing it and I've beaten it already. Hit me up in my instagram. Dm's if you WANNA talk spoilers there's another game in the final fantasy series called final fantasy eight Antonio and finally final fantasy eight Antonio. It's called final fantasy. Eight Antonio and Helena and in final fantasy eight Antonio as all the other final fantasies that are not named Antonio you get like summons like you can summon creatures to join your battle to to fight your bad guys and fight your fights with you in battle and typically since the word summon indicates it. You're summoning them. You're making the active choice to bring them to your side of the battle. But and final fantasy eight Antonio the Odin someone who is a recurring character franchise he trance. He's played differently in this game. Where rather than summoning Odin what will happen is? You're in the middle of a battle and obviously in the battle your goal is to destroy the bad guy and at the start of your battle without you choosing to do anything. Odin just shows up and he just rolls through the battle and apparently his goal that is completely uncoordinated with yours. And you have no control over. He also wants to decimate the bad guy but he just is choosing his own timing and he's choosing his own method. So Gus Spring is the player us in final fantasy Antonio and one Balsas Odin charging through the battle and he wants the bad guys debt as well. I believe the same mission accomplished the Lalas out of jail. Lawa's getting handled. We both want the same thing ultimately. We're fighting for the same team. I'm wondering if by getting the events set in motion to get low put in jail and then putting him having put in a position where all he can do is skipped bail so he has to go back to Mexico. If Gus is in basically saying I'm going to serve you Laos Lamonica on a silver platter and then Odin if you WANNA take him out go for it. This is final fantasy eighty Antonio. You're certainly in your bounds of doing that. Like this is the thing that you do in this game So you take him out little. Do you know Odin that. Even though that's different in this game I actually summoned you like even though final fantasy puck this little low hanging fruit. Odin Kirk Own Kirk yes. That's the Star Trek Crossover Yeah this I think is a thing. I think his plan was to make Lalla Salamanca a liability and to to let himself get beaten up to show that this is bad for business overall right because that's what they wanted to do. Lalla wanted to say the chicken man's bad for business and we gotta get rid of him. That was Lao's plan and Gus realized that was his plan and said they liked their money. So I'm going to make it clear that follow is the one. That's bad for business. That Lalo is the bigger liability. How do I do that? I'm going to put him on the hook for that travel wire thing then. I'm going to get him bailed out and make it so that he is in Mexico in that the heat is on him and he can't come back here at that point. I know we don't do things a certain way on this side of the border. Maybe we can do them differently on the other side of the Brian. What he says to Mike in this episode is after he gets back. Our actions must be unimpeachable. Basically saying like I can't be seen to have come at this guy but I'm gonNA come at him. I'M GONNA make sure that he gets taken off the board. Nobody can know it was from me though like nobody can so. He's trying to guide with his hand. The goal that he wants he's got. He's getting people to do what he wants them to do. I think that one Bolsa is not just intervening with his own goal. I think the goal that he's having has been accepted into him by Gus fring. At least that's what I want to read. It is because the other way to read it is gus wanted to be in jail and then pivoted because why. Lolo decided to have Nacho burn down on L. P. H. Like I just don't see that as as likely God has a plan. We're going to see in this final episode. What the execution of that plan is. I don't think there's any reason not to make gus out to be this monster. If you're going to have anybody take Lallo off the board. That's who you have do it. You don't have one bowls do it? You have if you have to do it. It's because of framing. That's your big bad. That's the guy that you want to spend the time building up so I just feel like we're still going to see exactly what that plan is and I don't know what the final act on it is but it does involve a lower being in Mexico. What about a wither Agnosio Josh? Just along for the ride. Unfortunately Worki- we in a position where agnosio comes off the board in. Do you think in this next episode. We've been talking about it forever. Have we reached a point where that is most likely or? Does that still less likely. Now I still think he has to be fearsome in a way that Jimmy is concerned for Agnosio in breaking right. And he's he has not hit that level for me so the fact that he is going down to Mexico and if he is with Lilo and we're also saying Wallo could be dead as soon as next week if he goes to Donald Audio and says hey him or me and he gets his ticket punched. Do we just kind of like. What's the continuity explanation? Do we care about that. How much do we care about that? If agnosio gets burned as well as a part of this I don't know it's it's a little murky for me with with Nacho. Right now I would be pretty disappointed to lose him soon. I think that he should Feels like there's a lot more life in the character and a lot more story potential there for me. What do you make of the conversation between Gus and Mike were? Mike actually makes the pinch like Nacho Varga. He's done what he said like. Can we get him out now? And and of course we talk about. Gus has the dog metaphor which is not great. What do you make of that whole conversation? Is Mike GonNa go to bat for nacho anymore? Or did he lose this battle and thus the war is over and nachos. Just kinda screwed at this point yeah. I think it makes sense to me for Mike to lose the NACHO battle that Gus will consume the Nacho and Mike is left with some lesser snack in that lesser snack is Jesse Pink Man for example because we will see Mike have kind of Investment Jesse in a way that like maybe that is born somewhat out of like him feeling like he didn't get to stand up enough for Nacho that he didn't get to go to bad enough for NACHOS. Something bad happens to Nacho. This is a good argument. I think. For NACHO getting getting got relatively soon that Mike wanted to pull Nacho out they did not pull Nacho out Najah gets pulled in deeper Nacho gets killed and Mike feels awful about that and like has has it out with gusts in. I don't know if he's going to have that with gus again. But if there's some level of you can assign some of that like residual leftover nacho regret onto. His relationship had that by the way that the leftover nachos regret. You take these scoops. Some of that molten hot cheese is and you. Place it on the pink plate and that that explains partly at least some of the energy that might cast words Jesse and breaking bad. Here's another young man who has gotten in the game for sure but like I don't WanNa see this kid like throw his whole life away for this and especially if he's like seeing it happened before well it's fascinating because you're right about that and I think there is that connective tissue there and I think it's it's not even DNA that That you have to dig deep. It's not that ancestral like Generational like The DNA where they have to find your relative and track you down that way. This is a direct hit because gus in this scene and Mike talk about whether fear is an effective motivator throughout breaking bad of course even though especially with episodes like box cutter Fear is an incredibly effective motivator for Gus fring. He repeatedly talks about how he doesn't believe. Fear to be an effective motivator. This is the thing that got says throughout breaking bad a lot and the fact that he doesn't say that that is not his default to have fear being an effective motivator and he straight up. Has that quote. I don't believe to be an effective motivator. And yet he talks about Nacho being a dog that needs to be disciplined to put down That's that is specifically talking about using fears. Motivator the fear of Papa and the problems there when Mike is saying you have a gun to his head. I think there's a chance at least in. I don't know I haven't given thought about how this plays out. There's a chance Mike wins this by losing right. There is a chance somehow that Mike is Right that they should have pulled Nacho out and that gus is the one who changes his tune on whether fear is an effective motivator or noticing interesting because I think I remember watching breaking bad and talking about podcasting with rob assessor Nina here. Podcasting about that final season. I was thinking about. We didn't get a chance to talk a ton about Gus fring. But his specter sort of hung over the whole series specifically how Walter White became molded into this sort of kingpin. Character after was taken off the board spoiler alert and now I'm doing it And it's that leftover it's at residual Nacho guilt that I have At that point what I think is that I thought about who. Gus fring was In his tactics and whether what was employing all of them or some of them ended always seemed to me like what we knew about. Gus from breaking bad was that he behaved the way he behaved. Because of Max because we that flashback we found out what made him tick to that extent and that maybe fear wasn't ineffective motivator because that's what had been used on him at the poolside with Max That's why he was working ultimately With the cartel the way he was on with Donald Audio throughout there's because he was afraid because of everything that happened with Max so he didn't like it in his own life. Well better costs. Also Prequel Gus. Fring year clearly does not buy into that ethos the way the GUS fring of breaking bad does so what changes between the Gust. We know. Now Gus we meet and breaking bad. It isn't something to do with Max. Maybe it's something to do with Nacho or something to do with this situation because Nachos the one in the crosshairs I also thought it was interesting did you. There's a scene. After gus in micro talking about this where we see. Nacho call wind gusts gossip guy tires I think might have been victor and he wants Nachos basically saying like hey once Lalo is put down. That means it's over right And tyrus I think might be. Victor says to Nacho. That's none of Your Business and hangs up on it. I don't know why that scene was there like we already know. That NACHO was Kinda screwed. It was just there so that he would know that he was screwed that he would know that he was under the thumb. I'm just confused as to what his role is in all this if he's going to pull a fast one if he feels like he can't get out anyway. He's not getting the answers he wants to get on so he's going to pivot. I still think there might be a move to be played there and it might be a move backfires on Gus. One thing that occurred to me as you were talking through those those character dynamics and those possibilities for for motivating future character actions although they are technically past character actions because it happened on a show that already aired is with Kim reading Lolo for filth in this episode. Can you imagine a scenario where where Mike who has been told earlier on this very season in fact I would pick your next words very carefully and basically just as I quit I quit? I quit Mr Frayne. And he walks away. He doesn't like give him like the big monologue. Is there something that can happen to Nacho? And then Mike points at that and it was like if you're not gonNa hear me and if you're not gonna see that like you get like point to pause grieving process for example like what it is you're fighting for is not good enough if these are the kinds of ramifications that are happening could so yes could something like the FBI resonated for us. Yeah I think so because it you have to keep in mind when he says and breaking bad when says I don't believe fear to be an effective motivator and he's articulating the opposite point here and better call Saul the person who is saying to him? I don't believe fear to be an effective motivator. Is Mike Mike? So Gus picks that up from Mike I would think and what you just said resonated with me because when you talk about if if Nacho is is is killed and he's caught up in the crossfire somehow he gets exposed and law takes him out or whatever it is. And it's Papa grief that is in play here boy. There's no going to understand the grief of Papa better than Mike like at the grieving father who loses his son. That's something that's really going to work with him and now Mike are already did. Walk away from costs. He's done it a couple times really but this season we saw what that looks like In this time it's a Mike who has remembered that he doesn't have to remember like he has learned that he has been able to articulate. I'm better now like he knows that he doesn't have to let that get him down. He has put in his brain Some way for him to be able to compartmentalize everything that he's been involved in and gus maybe help them with that a little bit. He took him away. He took him to that villa. He took them and put them in a position where he had to get better and maybe hit his bottom there. But the Mike that walks away from gusts if that were to happen now is not Mike. That's bottomed out and that's going to need gus fring And what's that? Revenge is executed if you will once Lolo. Salamanca is taken off. The board wants us on a move is made against the Salamanca's at where's Mike? Motivating factor to continue to work for Gus at that point when revenge was the word that brought him back in if revenge is executed. Especially if it's executed with Nacho in the crosshairs you might walk away now that said the Mike of this episode is also the Mike who articulates to Jimmy this monologue that I do WanNa get into a little bit more here. We're Mike Talks about the bad choice road and he does it in a much more eloquent way. Jimmy's is definitely road. And one of them is good. What are the roads bad? You're on the bedroom. So funny for a man whose Bolivian ship usually knows. No bounds is really finding himself at odds with something to articulate here and Mike Guy not known for his ability to talk. Doesn't much better job of explaining this and Mike of course has been talking about there in the game like they were in the game. It's fine there in the game. Certainly Nacho Varga is in the Game Mica said that to Nacho so I do wonder even though Mike is trying to get him out. How big is Mike Sympathy? Going to be considering what we know about. Mike? S- belief in roads and bad choices and good choices. Yeah Scott Question Man. I don't know I think I think we've talked about how gus saying. Revenge and now Mike being fully team again like something's missing. There's a piece of it. That's just not fully there and we got a really compelling speech from Mike in last week's episode and that was really good and I and I really liked that but I still feel like I don't feel like the argument is done or however you want to phrase that I don't feel like I don't feel like Mike and his perspective and the agency that he brings to the equation with gusts. That doesn't feel satisfied to me. And so I think that gus needs to probably like win in the big scheme of better call Saul at least like in terms of like this portion of the time line but lose in a way that is less about like his mustache twirling plans and more about wow. I've really lost myself in this to a certain degree and Mike needs to be able to point that out to him in some way. And that doesn't you know Mike's not a man of many words so it doesn't have to be a big long speech even the Big Long Jonathan Banks speech is Great You know the more half-measures psychotic and what we got last week was really good and you can imagine a really good one with him by telling. Gus something personal from his own life. That lodges deeply within Gus Spring. But it could be as simple as nacho dying and gus seeing the ramifications of that and Mike and giving him a look that all bets as I told you I told you. And Gus like having to stare in the mirror and see that like metaphorical charred half face staring back him. That becomes a liberalized in the season. Four finale of breaking bad one. Half of his face blows off. That actually happens spoiler alert but in the better call Saul context looking at himself for who he is becoming who. He's become what tactics are working. What tactics are not working? What tactics are working? But are they worth pursuing? Obviously everything with Bernard. Ziegler was not impactful enough for us to like back down from his methods. Could something really terrible happen? That like blows back on Papa and gets Mike to like articulate it in a way that gets gus till I come back down to Earth to some extent not enough that he's not gonNa you know out of blind rage. Try to inject poison into Hector Salamanca and get blown up in the process but like enough. That will get him to calm his tactics for at least a little while. Yeah I there's something you're right like we we. There is something here and I thought with Mike Speech. The the bad choice road. I thought really that he was encapsulating. A lot of what you could say about almost all these characters. You could say it about Kim. Wexler for sure. And the second time I watched the episode it really resonated with me that if you took Mike speech and applied it to Kim in the articulate way that Mike gave it not in the way the Jimmy tried to give it There are reasons to to actually think about the Ice Station. Zebra associates at all. But it isn't just Kim. We talked a couple of weeks ago. How hilarious it would be if when Jimmy was talking about how he had a client When you mentioned this to Kim that wanted to him to be a friend to the cartel if Kim said like how did you ever get this client to begin with? Jimmy's like well long story. It involves some guys and some skateboards involves the CATTLEMANS. Ida Falls a guy who was in a van. It involves me using the sex robot voice in a paper towel holder. All those things. You're familiar with because Uber on season. One yeah involves all those things. All those things are the little choices that might talks about in his bed. Choice road speech When he says we all make our choices those choices put us on a road sometimes. Those choices seem small but they Put you on the road. Do you think about getting off. But eventually you're back on it. Nothing can be done about that. That's Mike's Short of his speech And NACHOS made those choices. Everybody in the show Jimmy all of them Kim but Gus fring has certainly made those choices as well while is making those choices and everybody is on the road there in the game and they could try to get off the road mike and try to get off there. We know by breaking bad. He's back on the road right and my concern of courses that Kim can try to get off the road. Kim has making these choices. She's made some big choices in this episode Josh I thought it was hilarious when I watched the episode D. You remember what Jimmy and Kim said The morning which wakes up and puts his feet in the ice bath. They're going to sit there and watch. Tv All day long. Do you remember the exchange between the to me? This is the same day at Kim quits. Mesa Verde she quit swicord and Coakley puts Mesa Verde behind her and then comes home and the monsters in the House. The boogeyman shows up. Kim Says I really need a day without some trauma. That's what she says in the thing is she makes them little choices and she's made some choices in the past so even though she wants to get off the road like even though she needs a day without some drama. This is what can happen by the way we saw last episode. What happens when you get off the road and it's not great not bad down the road you went back on the road anyway. It's interesting because she says that. And then she goes on to quit. Schweickart and Coakley. She's she's done with Mesa Verde she's like very very calm about it like there's just sort of like this serenity about her of like just like yeah. This is right. This is correct. It's time to go. It's time to leave. She's choosing to go about it calmly but it's your matic life altering choice so for beginning. The day craving no drama. Forget Lalla Manca you you blew up your day. You blew up your life in a single day. That was without the cartel so big day for Kim Wexler on ripping it down on the badge. Ways wrote it's It's just. It's a big day for her and the thing is she can. She says that she could really use a day without drama but first of all she lives with Jimmy McGill so good luck but second of all. I'm not sure that that's really what she needs. We talked last week Or maybe it was two weeks ago when you get into her upbringing. And you see the drama. That was inherent in her upbringing. And she's talked about it in the past with Mr Aker this season sometimes people in that scenario. They don't actually not crave the drama. Drama is all they know. The drama is their routine. The drama is sadly and unfortunately Where they find some measure of familiarity and comfort and that's why they have a lot of problems they seek to recreate it. They see they seek it out whether they mean it they do it consciously or subconsciously people repeat and seek to repeat these patterns of behavior because it is in the patterns that they find comfort so it is possible that Kim can say she wants that. I don't want drama. But then when you know keep in mind. She says that the next thing that they talk about is she says Jimmy. I know you're lying. I'm here for you. You can tell me no judgment. This isn't a better deal. I just know that you're not telling the truth and Jimmy's after that he tells her of course point is I dragged my own p. That's the detail I drink by. Yeah just like the the the sun. Caked Jimmy McGill the. Make up in this episode off there. How about Mike like? Oh my gosh caked. Mike earnings to part ways with sun moved them. Which they're damned jewels and Vince Vega Looks Fiction. They're looking dog shit So funny with Mike. Teel t shirts. There's a there was a great photo. I saw flooding around. I wonder if maybe you even retweeted it but I saw someone posting it. A photo from the costume department on Better Call Saul. Jonathan banks like flipping off the camera while he's wearing the the big yellow t shirt that he gets at. The gas station looked amazing absolutely incredible. They love giving Jonathan Banks. Shit on the official better call. Saul podcast the producers podcast. And it just sounds like there's a lot of fun that has handed Jonathan banks but his response to things generates a lot of laughter among people so he's reputation I think is like he'll he'll really like much like Mike. Urban shout very thorough. Like stab really necessary. I really like going down the line on a point of like. Are you really going to make me do that? If so please like really articulate. Why Fair Enough? They asked him to do a lot here in the in the better call. Saul well in some of the best actors certainly are people that really put that level of thought and work into their craft. there's I think their stories. I've Richard Schiff Emmy Award winning actor from the West Wing and He will tell you that he he can be tough to work with but he he he he. I've I've heard him say like it's because I really care like I am not saying actress who don't put off that. Same VIBE DON'T CARE. I'm just saying like this. Is I think probably mark of why Jonathan Banks's process works the way thus Ram Because he puts a lot of time and effort and care and into it. And that's the same with you and me like we're very well known in our method chester. Barrie difficult to podcast with so because we care. Yeah exactly. I make people read like six books before each test Sounds like something you would do something like someone would think like? Antonio does that? He doesn't actually do no. I don't I don't even read them before you haven't made me read anything. I'M GONNA recommend you start with the Bible. God who good stories in there speaking of a lot of good stories The situation with with Kim I. What is the motivating factor? Do you think in why she leaves. Mesa Verde is at the stories of her pro Bono clients. She looks at the photo and it is that photo at the same time the she's dictating yet. Another inane letter about nothing about a six foot extension of some Bullshit Mesa Verde Bank whatever That she seems to formulate the plan that I got to get out of this place and I gotta do it right now but is that the reason because later in the episode. She talks about the clarity that she gained when she thought Jimmy was dead. So what do you think is the most the real motivating factor for why now? Why did this happen right now that Kim walked away speaking by the way on behalf of Rich Schweiker? Her boss played wonderfully by Dennis boots. We Love Dennis and I hope it's not the last time we see am I. It is true. Trust that they put in an actor when they let that scene between racy Horn and devos's play out the way they did a almost silently right. We only saw through reaction what was happening and we knew from the way that scene was played. Exactly what was going down. My question is why. Why in that moment was was what happened. What happen life this short and I think that's gotTa already be brimming on her mind in the last year or so of her life given everything that happened to chuck given the very you know given the lives that they lead in the aftermath of that haven't even really talked about some of your choice to present that scene of Kim tendering her resignation silently. That we just watch it and like you. Just you can a what's happening. You can just kind of like you can feel what what just occurred. Some great filming choices in this episode The montage at the start right. We didn't even talk about something stupid. That was wonderful. Tie tying that back to last season just showing how. The two of them are going about their days differently. She's you know she's rinsing her mouth out as she's brushing her teeth he's Gargling Piss. Let me jump in there because I think there is. There's a parallel that occurred to me in the something stupid. Montage that occurred last season Where we we talked about IT I. It's one of my favorite. I think it might be my favorite better call. Saul montage and it's a time jump. It's what it shows more than anything is the two of them growing apart We see them slowly going in and out of frames of each other's We see them at different times of their days eating their dinners. Apart not together we see the bad and the line drawn very clearly down the middle and yeah there's a little bit of overlap but that's what that is meant to communicate in my mind. Is that over time? These two are growing apart. And if you listen to the song and you listen to the lyrics of this classic Song The specifically wanted that song on the commission. Did they had a specific artists that they targeted and said. Can you perform this? Want to see if we can use it. One of those was low. Lamarche the band. Low the marsh Who then had to a another version Lola March to another version this episode and it seems like a tiny speck together with what we were just talking about. It seems like maybe what has happened is the idea at least in Jimmy when he's wandering throughout that desert is all. I care about his right to get back to Kim coming closer together even though they're separated and it's the something stupid montage that was about growing apart before this is showing they're coming closer together and it is this moment. Perhaps where Kim is like. I really don't want him to be dead and the fact that she thought he might be dead as told her like. You just said life's short. Go Out and Change Your Life. I don't think it's any coincidence. That she pivots when she's leaving Schweickart and Coakley and goes back and gets that Tequila Lid Because that is I think. Her Talisman for what reminds her of the fund that she and Jimmy Half together and that side of her that brought them together in the way that it did The first night we ever saw them spend the show together. I don't know if that was their first night together or not. I don't think that's ever been made abundantly clear but it seems to me like at the beginning of this episode Jimmy. Actually being absent brought them closer. Together it was bringing them closer together That made him realize I'm out of this Mesa Verde life and it does. It is Josh. What makes me wonder if she's going to buy in more to the criminal lawyer side of Saul Goodman more -at's crazy though bad choice road? That's the thing right. That's the monologue you you might be thinking that you're making these choices but you're always going to end up back on the road Once she put herself on the road to to be with Jimmy McGill and she really put her ball in his court. If you will I. And she and. She pushed her chips behind him. She staked him in terms of what he was doing Jamaica. She got on the road. She's in the game now is Mike would say and what she's in that game. She's on that road. She could make choices and she can think she's getting away like she can think moot leaving. Schweickart and Coakley and going and working for her pro. Bono clients is in pursuit of good but in reality she still the person who takes that to kill out of that office. She's still the person that did this. Because of Jimmy McGill and it's fascinating to me the part Jimmy. Gill makes me very angry throughout this episode. But the part he makes me angriest is when Kim tells him that she quit Schweickart and Coakley. And Jimmy's like well. That's a pro bono. Means for free. So you're not gonNA make any money. What's your plan like mother Fucker? Pardon my friends. Oh you just brought home one hundred K. for your bullshit. That's enough with the two of you for the year. At least so why. Don't you slow your roll a little bit here? And maybe Kim will continue work on for her pro Bono clients because we know she robs Peter to pay Paul so maybe we she will continue working for her pro bono clients as she's running ice station run shops Peter. Gould Pay Aaron. Paul yes that's exactly what it is. Yes Yep you figured it out you crack the code practice code but I mean it's it is it is kind of in some ways. Turnabout is fair play and and even though it's not Kim who gets like put Jimmy back in his place. It's more the universe right universe man where Jimmy is coming at Kim. So hard you hypocrite. You just like you're still lying. Even though she has given you every reason the world to like tell her like the full stuff and Shit and you're still allying you're still telling like she said like she. She knows something else happened in the desert like she's given you every excuse man and your choosing to still be this guy and you're judging her career choices a and now you're inviting the monster into the house and this is when lawler shows up right so it is it is and then. She's the one who drives him out. You're paying paying off that you don't save me. I save me. She's the one who gets them. Jam Call. I think that's great. I think that that that works really well for me in terms of everything that we're coming to understand about this relationship between them. I think Jimmy doing everything that he can't be self-important transform himself and be the king of his universe but when the consequences of that really come home he's not going to be able to stare stare down and it's came. Who's going to be the one who's able to untangle all of that? I don't know there's a lot there just the scene construction of that vinyl seen the episode. I haven't felt that tents very long time just watching something. This is really really massive. We'd done great character work. Great just great cinematic choices having like the specter of Mike being in the room that Mike could be in the room a flash in a manner of speaking if he needed to be it was just all the set pieces on all of that really expertly crafted really great a really great sequence in in better call Saul history really across both of the shows. This ending here really kind of knocked my socks off. I wore the other one. It stands to reason than it would be with the DNA the cross DNA Because the writer director. This episode is Thomas Schnauzers Thomas has directed A couple of episodes of better call Saul in the Passy also directed The say my name episode of breaking bed but he worked as a producer on breaking bad and he's been involved in the DNA of that show extensively and has been involved in the DNA of better call Saul throughout as well. I believe I'm not sure but I believe he has directed an episode in every season. A Better Call Saul or at least most. If he hasn't gotten every season he was on the producers podcast week. He's always really funny. He's speaking of Rascal. He's just he just says whatever the hell he feels like. He doesn't have much of a filter so he's always entertaining to listen to for did not recognise before I know they were. They had talked about it on the podcast in the past and I couldn't remember but yeah he it makes sense of the DNA would be there because this is a guy who understands these shows really really well. And I just all this all this cross pollination all the people that are involved in working Having worked on breaking bad and having been involved on breaking bad Throughout the course of the show it just does make me wonder what. Kim Wexler Role in breaking bad could be and what a season six of better call Saul could be if we want to jump into that time line like if we if we want to do what they did with the scene with Jimmy and Francesca where we had some of that I would say there has to be a break at some point even if Kim Wexler is involved with Ice Station. Zebra even if We are seeing in this episode. The possibility Because of the depth of the writing and because of how good everything Is is brought to the stage by the actors The possibility that Kim could be involved in this I think that there is clearly a break at some point when gene goes to Omaha genus alone and so there he is not with Kim Wexler throughout all of breaking bad say and I still think it's most likely that that's the call he places when he's going to take care of it himself instead of the vacuum cleaner salesman. He's GonNa Call Kim Wexler and he's going to have her get him out of trouble but the break is coming. I think the question is will. It happened in the better. Call Saul Timeline. Which I think we have been anticipating Possibility of her being the first person to be disappeared and so on. I think it's possible that the the break could have occurred sometime in the breaking bad timeline and season six better call. Saul. That spends time in that. Timeline might actually let us see that. Play out yeah. We'll we're we're running right up to it right we got. We got one hour on the clock here on better call Saul and a lot to tidy up you know before we get into the final season. I don't think I don't know if we know for sure what. The episode length is for the final season. If it's following in the breaking bad mold of splitting a final season up into two smaller seasons or if it's going to stick to the tried and true ten episodes a year that better call Saul has unfurled thus far. We don't know but we are theoretically staring down. The barrel of and I know barrels are triggering in this universe of eleven episodes left. That's a lot of time and yet not a lot of time with the way in which this show moves through plot that cares less about plot and more about character but there is a lot of plot to accomplish still so I. I'm I'm really intrigued about next week. Because this back portion of the season has been pretty momentous things have been moving with with with such a velocity that it's been kind of breathtaking and really intense on a weekly basis and way that breaking bad off and was better call. Saul is not normally on the regular like dependably intense. In this way in these circumstances you know what I mean like. It's usually intense on like sort of on another character levels not not on this level What's going to get accomplished in this? Finale what kind of tone is that? GonNa set for the final season of the show. What is going to be resolved here and what's going to be left on the board to be resolved next year like if we if we resolve the Lalla thing this coming week the way that you and I think expect where does that leave the MIC and Gus Story to go in the final season. Lots of lots of these types of questions. I'm really curious to look at the finale next week as a bit of a compass towards what to expect from the final season. Same and you know that I have been saying that what I would like to see you. I hope we will see. I think we will see is a scene involving gene in the finale that we're going to break the format a little bit that we're going to do what some of the best TV shows have done in the past Which is in a season. Finale changed the format. One of the things I will say is that there's been at least one death in every season. Finale of better call Saul sometimes major characters like Verner chuck Sometimes minor characters like truck drivers or Marco people that were major to certain people in the show but maybe not major in the context of the entire show. But there's been a character death in in every one of the finale episodes I I'm guessing they're not going to break the form on that but you're right with as many episodes they have left and actually season six thirteen episodes not ten so some more length More opportunity to I think tell stories in that breaking bad time line. If you want to get there more more opportunity to tell stories in the gene timeline. If you want to get there and you don't want to do just to scenes with gene you don't want to do just a beginning ending a way to split the season seven at six. If they WANNA do that we have no idea how the world will be better call. Saul returns keeping in mind. I think it was eighteen months or so Between the end of the last season at the beginning of this one. So who knows? I've seen you talking about our world now because exactly talking about our world. Yeah we're on the road right now. Brother own choices and they're coming chickens. Gustav here's the good or bad road on the bad one other bad one. My friend together. We're into bad choice. Road is due in the bad place. Yes we had a feedback. Email that I know we wanted to read David. Upper can pull it up. Let me see this is this is from Watches Hi guys in the end of this episode reminded me of the end of Wexler v Goodman in that we are once again left wondering what Kim will do next. I think that Kim is fully committed to the criminal lawyer lifestyle by this point. Kim knows that Jimmy is not being straight with her about what happened in the desert but rather than push directly for full disclosure. She decides to take action to clear her plate and show him that she is willing and able to follow him down. This road leading Schweickart and Coakley and Mesa Verde is the first step of that plan. The second presents itself in a moment of necessity when low decides to play. Shave Wexler McGill. A visit is clear to her. That lawler was not buying Jimmy Story. And when she finds out why she takes action to rationalize. Aaron facts build up Jimmy's Alabama and character and undermined the judge executioners owned position. She must be feeling strong. Terror anger and betrayal when all this is going down but she does what she always does and pushes those pesky emotions out of the way at least until the danger is out of their immediate presence that she continues to be so effective and command such respect. Despite the emotional depth charges lying underneath is how she got his foreign life. It is not a good long term strategy. But it's the best. She's got and makes her admirable short-term tactician of course. It's also possible that Kim comes to her senses and leaves Jimmy. Which would set up a final season of gene searching for some closure with Kim but given that she just agreed to marry the Guy. Odds are that. She's down to ride till the end. Hashtag two thousand four Bonnie and Clyde. Yeah this is the bad choice road right right. This is her making these choices. Small in the moment. I'm just going to push that aside. I'm not going to deal with it. I'M NOT GONNA. I'm not gonNA really stick my neck out here. But all those little choices that she's made They pusher in this direction. That she's headed. I just I feel like in. I think this email encapsulated I I feel like I'm more likely than ever to accept that Kim. Wexler isn't taken off the board that she is in control of the board at some point. And that's I think perhaps more terrifying proposition than the former proposition and a credit to all involved. I think for putting that as a possible scenario here whether it was even really intended or not. That's where I'm at with for sure I don't know where you are. Yeah I don't know man are. You just feels like you're feels like what's the worst possible outcome for Kim. Wexler at this point is that she does that. She dies where that she lives that way. Something happened in the last hour or so. Antonio and you incented me with the idea of Kim becoming a cartel lawyer and I hate that not in terms of its unearned by story. Unfortunately I think it could be earned by the story. That's the thing I hate that and I hate that for her. I hate it and like I'm having a hard time thinking about Tim's future. This episode was very effective. In and again I do think it is important. That like these are Kim's choices and she's making bad choices and she's making the choices to stay with Jimmy but I can you know in the same way that like Jesse pink men makes bad choices sticks within on breaking bad and I still love that character and I still want better for him. It's exactly how I feel for Kim Wexler and largely because of just a remarkable performance in right. Now it's hard for me to see a lot of options where with now we're talking about fourteen episodes remaining on the board because of the thirteen in the final season at least theoretically for now. It's hard for her. It's hard for me to imagine her making that healthy choice to walk away from Jimmy Anytime soon. Maybe maybe it's a still to come at some point further down the road but we're still talking about the bad choice wrote at that point. You know there's a too much drama in the Jimmy and Kim relationship and just enough time on the clock that she probably not GonNa make very good decision about this until a lot later and one thing that has occurred to me over. The course of this past hour of conversation is Oh God. What if this really is Kim's breaking bad story? Yeah we thought we were getting the story of how Jimmy McGill breaks bad and become Saul Goodman. But we're really getting and what it became was the story of how it happened to Kim. Wexler that's fascinating possibility that it wasn't for you and I hopped on so if I sound like little far away in distressed about the whole thing because I don't want that to happen man but but I'm feared of it the bad choice road convoys made me feel some type away like it made me feel like what are what are who is the speech really four because just thinking about like him saying. I don't want drama today. And all the drama. That happened that day she also She said I. I won't see la again like that's what she says to Jimmy early in the episode. When Jimmy's like you don't see below icy Lalo? You'RE NOT IN THE GAME. Comes back in the game and clearly? Kim is better at dealing with Lallo. Jimmy is she's better. She's better suited for this. And when we know what Jimmy McGill does in as Saul Goodman one of the things that that we always saw Saul Goodman doing Was We saw him Being sort of low end right like his reputation wasn't like I'm this kingship Shit kick ass cartel lawyer His reputation was. He's the guy you hire when you're guilty like he's a criminal lawyer and his his lobby. Waiting Area was filled with a lot of personal injury. Type clients It was always portrayed as very low end stuff that he was asleep that he was not like this king. Heavy hitter the guy who's like buying vineyards that has like all the money in the world from the cartel the hundred thousand dollar a year cartel lawyer guy that wasn't Saul Goodman but could it become wexler at least possible like who is the Mesa Verde of the of this world that she's representing cartel exactly see worked for a Wachtel and now she's going to work for cartel because just just to add a little bit of something to this. Mike was listening. Mike heard that whole conversation. Mike Heard Kim shoot lalo right out that damn door. Mike watched as she stepped in front of him. She literally stepped into his crosshairs. All and there's so much bait by the way she's playing with oranges. The whole episode she stepping into the crosshairs Thomas. Now's the producers podcast. Oh yeah this was like I guess. It's not schmuck. Bait if you're bathing last film nerds but it's like nerd bait so they were clearly like baiting. The audience would be hip to that. So it's a very effective because I'm very concerned about it the entire time. I'm watching that scene to the point that I'm not watching the scene listening to it. Yeah you know. I can't look so it is Mike. Here's that he he. If anybody in that room standing up to Lolo I it is not Saul Goodman that. Here's a good that makes walk out of that place. It does not Saul Goodman that allows Mike to drop his gun It's Kim Wexler Mike. Here's that Mike has to know a Guy. So it's it's always. It's always clear from breaking bad that that Jimmy does not know who gushed is does not really know. Mike's Connection Holy knows that he has one but maybe Kim does know. And that's something. I think that we should be tracking more of course when Kim is unfortunately killed in some sort of explosion next episode of this will be the for now it is very interesting possibility and I'm glad we talk about it. What else did we miss that you wanted to hit before pope? Let me look at this an episode again real quick. Just looking at my notes while you do that. I had that in my notes for shore that Mike was listening. And the Kim said I won't see Lau again It's interesting when Jimmy tells Kim to go in the other room and find the Mug Mug and she looks through a law. Looks through the bullet hole of the car She's looking at it and Jimmy's like did you see you see it. And she says yes. And Jimmy says that's what it's all about and it has he's saying that's what it's all about. She's looking at the bullet holes the lie all of that Chicanery. So what it's really all about is not just the money it's about the fear. It's about the violence It's about the lies. It's about all those things and she knows that she's going in with is open. She is not. She's being lied to but she no. She's being lied to so she knows who she's dealing with this is. This is not a surprise to Kim. Wexler any of this stuff. Yeah so there is one thing that we did not talk about that. I think we absolutely do need to talk about and then I think we're probably good. We gotTA talk about Bill. Hope TALKING ABOUT BILL OAKLEY. How do we forget it? Yeah Deputy District Attorney Bill Oakley I forget him simply just like trolling hard jimmy and just like relentless relentless assault I thought was over and then he pops up in the window of the door. I this is like street fighter. You're playing against a guy who's commanding eat. Honda and just doing a thousand armed slab from the start of the fight before it even says go. That's the kind of astle you'd ever WanNa play against. But he knows that he made never get a shot again. Jimmy Shanley chicken boys like he's really just digging it in he LE. Yeah this is great. This is to change your name again. Really really funny. I'm so glad a loan in a moment to be physically like in pay in pain from all this and then we just pan like a window. Still Yeah I was watching. I texted you a screen shot of that because incredible I loved it so much so legitimate belly laugh from the big. Yeah really just great stuff during the season. The seasons but great. I love this so much. I think that they've they do all the things that they do really well anyway. And they're doing them at at in peak form. We're GONNA have robbed. We're GonNa Have Rob Sesser Nino. Who ipod casted with a better call? Serb abetter call with for all the seasons. We're GONNA have him on before we wrap up our podcast about this season. Better Call Saul. I'm curious to ask him but I'm also curious to ask you. Do you think and I'm not trying to toot my own horn in any way. I'm just curious from a process perspective. Do you think you've enjoyed the season more because you're podcasting about it because you're thinking about on a deeper level in that way. I don't I don't know I listen. I love talking through this stuff so as long as I have somebody in my life to talk through better call Saul with on this level. I think I'd be good so even if it was just you and shooting the Shit and you're still doing the podcast with rob and you and I are not getting together and doing this weekly. I know that you and I are friends. And we're going to be having conversations about this stuff no matter what but I do find that. I derive a certain amount of enjoyment when we are through this. This is some like sausage making stuff you could throw it on your Nachos if you want later is like I do find that when we're thrown into that space that we seem to occupy when you and I are on a podcast together Antonio where we go about an hour to an hour thirty somewhere in that range of your locking down. You're going into the room and you're chewing on a story for that length of time. I often find that I walk away from whatever it is. We're talking about with a deeper relationship to the thing whether or not that's for better for worse it's worse this week but often it's much more often been for better than for worse. You know what's not talk about Strigoi but like the the examples of like shows that we've gotten to synchro teeth into in this way That we've both like formed like a special relationship with far vastly outnumbers. The show is that we haven't so. I think it's not that I it's not that I was not loving better. Call Saul Anyway. Breaking Bad's one of my favorite shows of all time and I love better call Saul and I certainly love it more right now. having done a rewatch of it and getting to have like a much more like a a closer more current sense of the scale. If the thing right now I feel like I'm above it and I can look down in a way that hadn't been looking down on it before and I do think that there is something about the process that exists within the show itself when you're tearing a car apart to find the bug and it's in the cap in the gas canister that when you allow yourself to chew on better call and no part at the animal goes wasted. Everything is used. Everything is stripped down for parts whether it's for consumption or to turn the bowed the bones into Bowen era. I don't know what kind of warriors stuff would occur. It's obviously not my field. I it makes more satisfying experience. And I'm definitely feeling that this year better call Saul but I think that's the personal side of it. I think the more universal side is much like breaking bad. Was a ramping up game so has been this. This is a bad esscalation. It's just the speed is different. The the place you're going is still the same your head. You're on bad choice. Wrote doesn't matter whether you're going one hundred sixty miles per hour. You're going the speed limit which you know better call. Saul tends to abide by more often than than breaking bad I think or maybe the better analogy is the vessel the vehicle with which they are driving down. I don't know I keep talking about. This is a slow motion car wreck and I think that that's I think that's right but a slow motion car wreck and like somebody wake ripping down the highway towards a very very bad call. You're still driving towards a bad call and that is at the point where it just because of time on the clock. We're about to crash into the wall and there is something that if you're if you're firing creatively on the right cylinders you're ready to make the pivots and the choices that needs to be made to push you through the top of the toothpaste tube and out into the point of no return. Crass you cross that Rubicon at the edge of the toothpaste tube. There's going to be something. Very weak uncomfortably pleasurable about that experience. That is that is definitely personal in terms of like the lean aspects but it's also undoubtedly a resounding resounding credit to the creators for on of levels. Not just the Peter Golden Vince Gilligan's of the world blessed though they may be but talking about you know full writer's room full editor sweet costume designers. A location scouts obviously cast music choices scoring all of that. It's it's symphonic when it's at its best and I think that better call Saul is in that place right now and thank God because it'd be really sad if it wasn't but we are here in the penultimate hour of penultimate season and I think it's exactly where it needs to be right now. Even if Kim Wexler is not yeah I I completely agree and I don't mean in any way too slight people involved with making a show of anything. I think it's a credit to them that there are certain shows. And we've we have been lucky enough to talk about some of them choice like we picked him out but there are certain shows. I think that really reward that level of deep dive and reward that level of thinking on that level of commitment and I think what we're seeing in an episode with Kim where we spent the entire season for example loud ing the work of Racy Horn praising The just the writing on the situations that the character has been but being concerned that we're heading down a bad path and and worrying from moment to moment we're now in an episode episode nine or we can spend. I don't think wasted time Really digging into the possibility for this character that she is not even a fork in the road that she's already too far gone that she's made those choices This is a show. I think that rewards that level of thinking there are too many shows like that on on in history really that that reward the level of thinking on that level so I was curious because you haven't been doing this with better call Saul. We've talked about the show in the past. But you weren't sitting here with me every week We weren't sitting together every week. Picking this over there shows that I've podcast in about And I know you have where we say you know what I think I enjoy the show more from talking about it because I'm not going to invest the same level of energy in it I'm going to just be committed to sitting back and letting it play out in front of me and not really thinking about it. This is a show. I think that rewards that level of commitment I sense that from the people who listen From the people who participate. Who tweet at us? Who have talked to us about the show. Offline not on the PODCAST I think people are really feeling good about better call Saul right now And I haven't always felt as all the on the show the previous season so it is. It is a testament to a lot of things time. Certainly being one of them Having the ability to know where your end is coming and having a plot in a plan to get there But at this point I have no clue what could come others a lot of things we can talk about. And I'm fascinated by all of it and I think that's a true testament to what they have done with this season of better call Saul even though there have been some moments where like okay we. We spent a lot of time finding a bowling ball. For what reason like all these things I I still think we can thread those needles. There will find a way to make Bill Oakley come in And matter and make it not just funny but a terrible moment for such that he goes out and reflects to Mike of all people and we see him in that great moment when he gets out on that street. I think it's a straight we've seen in this show many times before where he meets Mike there so it may even be the ice cream corner just a great show just a really realizing I can't tastic show. Yeah I think I think it's very good that they've earned their way back to Jimmy and Mike being in scenes together and obviously that's a fairly recent development even though they have the phone call in the quote Unquote Tunnel earlier in the season. But I think finding a way to get those characters back in each other's orbit in a more meaningful way and it's hard to imagine deviating from that moving forward. I think that they're back together in some capacity now as as we're crossing through to the finish the proverbial walt and Jesse of the series. Which is is obviously not a one to one you know. They're they're the two leads in in many ways certainly the holdovers from breaking bad. That are that are anchoring so much of this story but another piece of it to this year has been like there has been this like unstable rogue agent in. Lallo who I know you guys had a lot of questions. Rob had a lot of questions about the character like coming out of season for you know. He's I think through ceilings. It back down but I actually think that these nine episodes of season five that we've gotten to spend law so far at least one more you'd think unless he just disappears into the night we don't see him again until the final season which I guess is not impossible. That would be kind of. It'd be a choice. We're going to see him. I pretty confident we're going to see him. I'd be surprised if we didn't that he's just. He is just brought this energy to the show he reminds me of a lake the dangerous like quote unquote friend. Everyone knows this like Ross. Or I'm talking about Gunther. No He is a dangerous is full on stalker. What I mean like. There's the person that you're connected to in some way shape or form of use you as a friend you have to see them in social situations but wow that person's dangerous the way they carry themselves is is frightening and you know if you get too close that is composed. That's a combustible situation. You got real careful around. That person Lolo has that very wild energy about him where he goes through the show with these zest in life and sort of just like laughing Daniel Craig Road to perdition style. It's also hysterical to some degree like book kind of like a like a jackal like is like sort of like the animalistic approach to them whereas there is something. That's much more careful and methodical about gus spring. And that's scary but there's something really scary about having a villain Lalla Salamanca who embodies tone of better call. Saul writ large that sometimes this show is deeply funny and sometimes this show is deeply troubling. Follow is really wears. Both of those colors really well and that he is like sort of like this this this operator who exists across lake. He's he's kind of like what Jimmy is describing himself in the episode. A couple weeks ago where he's like. I walked through. And all of this like that's Lal. Allow the operator in the two tones of better call. Saul and now he is. He is crossed over in. He's at the center of the Ven Diagram of the shows story so to remove that next week is going to be no big thing if that's where we end up going no small thing that's where we ended up going and I will. I will mourn that loss. We're right if we are going to lose Lalo here soon. I oh I I kind of hope. We're wrong because I think that the energy he brought this year kind of transformed the show for the better. Yeah driftwood drifts at take underscored bring her on twitter tweet at US and said I'm predicting Lallo does not die out. That's correct to write. I feel like it's over but like don't leave the defense or the reasoning behind Griffin drifts. Take that was brought by take. Underscore bringer is in my opinion. The character and Tony Acting are as good as anything. The breaking univer break bed universe has done and I could see the writers realizing the absolute gem they have in the writing and portrayal and it's fascinating because you brought up how rob maybe had some misgivings about follow. And when I asked you if you maybe saw part of the reason that you've enjoyed the season Moore's because we've really spent the time to luxuriate an break it down. I suspect though. I can't confirm and we'll bring rob on to validate this having nothing to do with any of us. I suspect rob may be enjoying the season more just letting it play out and watching it and not really spending the time worrying about whether he understands lawless motivations or any of that I think there are probably people in the audience who are really just letting enjoying watching letting things play out and for those people They may not want while taking off the board. It's funny My friend Mack. Holman shout out to my friend. Who's a big fan of better call? Saul? He was watching this episode with his wife and he said his wife was screaming at the TV. Just shoot him. Just shoot him like she wanted Mike just to pull the trigger so there are definitely people in the audience who want Lilo gun but Lallo. You're right occupies that space where you can entertain. Us and scare us. Great performance great show the fact that the show was able to do that itself and Lolo in the way that you put it encapsulates all that really good stuff here. Yeah good stuff as yet anything else you WANNA hit before we wrap up here Josh. We've gone hour and a half. So were you know. We're in that spot that we that we tend to fall so I think it's time to turn down the lights close in. Oh my gosh wonder too bad Joyce Road. Yeah. I don't want to take me home in its myself. I'm going to say thanks. Everyone for listening How can people get out of if they want to? Send US feedback. We're going to do a full feedback. Show right Josh. Let's just talk that through real quick? You know we we kinda casually. We've in feedback here and there on the recaps but we will have a dedicated feedback. Bonus special after the season. So we've got the finale of recap that's GONNA come up next week and tell you and I are GonNa take that down and plan as it stands. Rob will be back for our big feedback. Show that will do some time shortly. After the finale you know a week or so at most something like that you can send all your feedback in for us. Bcs At post show recaps dot com is our email address. You can hit us up there. You can hit us up on the twitter as well at post show recaps at Ron Howard. That's me like Howard Hamlin but rounder. Antonio's at AC Massaro several different ways to get in touch with us for both next week show but just as importantly maybe even more importantly so that we have things to talk about for for our season five feedback show that we will do the week after all of that and right now. You're in this the Halcyon days if you will the beauty times when we still have as you like to put Josh. The what three three or four days before the finale of caller the best three or four days because we still have not yet experienced it. we're still in the gloaming if you will so if you want to get your predictions in About what gusts plan is will always survive the season. What will become of Kim. And so on Go ahead and send those in if you nail it on the nose. We're definitely GONNA shut you out but I'd be curious to read some of them. I'm curious this jerk about it. If you're like I told you well listen. Hopefully they'll do that in the email where they're making the prediction if they do that. I'm going to be scared of future man or future woman and say I get out of here. You Demon so. I don't think that will be the case. But yeah feel free to singer predictions in if you nail. We'll definitely give you credit. I'm curious as to what everyone is expecting out of this finale where people are. I'm no longer necessarily feeling like we'll definitely get a gene scene because there is this propulsion of nature. I still think we will But we're not in a position where I think it's as likely because we have this huge piece on the board in Lala that we haven't dealt with an feels like that's the thing that we're going to do in this finale to me And the idea that you've given me that he could possibly not show up or possibly survive it Arlene are things that I hadn't considered as likely so. I'm curious as to what everyone else thinks. Definitely hit US up We certainly appreciate the feedback that we got this week as every week Shoutout to those. Who helped behind the scenes Josh? You want to give anybody a shot out. The people who helped put this podcast up together. Whole hundred percent from Steve's Panty to Alex Rubino Sam more. We've got a great team. That's working to make sure that all these podcasts are coming your way. Of course we've got a lot beyond better call Saul on pusher recaps push. Recaps is bump in these days killing eve. Recap just launched with Jessica lease and myself talking about killing eve. I always love walking dead ending. Prematurely was really sad for me mostly because it meant Jesse. We're not going to be talking zombies every week. Now we're talking about a show that is just like objectively really fun and good instead of just like we can make walking dead fund so really looking forward to spending all season long. Talk Matt Those characters with Jessica. We had a really good start to the podcast this week. So check that out. We'll have a feet up for that specifically but if you just subscribe to push a recaps generally you'll be able to get her killing. You've podcast the season premiere. Was this past Sunday. So we've got eight weeks of that show to look forward to also got Westworld Lake. Better call saw getting really close to the end of the line. Joe Garfield tonight just released our recap of that. We've got our marvel podcast. Everything is super. We're going through with the Marvel. Cinematic universe that's myself and Kevin Mateo. We truck through the incredible hulk this week. That was a time a lot of time to be alive while the time to be alive. Indeed thing killing a good example of a show that I'm just happy to sit back and enjoy for sure for sure and killing eve is a good example of a show that I have been really really grateful to like. Get the chance to lean into more interesting. It's been it's actually been really fun to dig into some of those characters On a on a more granular level. And where they're all at. Psychologically that's you know that's my stuff. That's my favorite stuff so really fun with that loss. Down the hatch with Mike. Bloom still happening. We're up to fire plus water this week. My least favorite episode of the whole show. But I've been having a hard week and I often say that lost to beat you where you are playing. Watch the yet so. I wonder if that means I'm going to be extra down on it or will lift me up in some ways so so it's coming up the fire plus water. It's the one where a. Charlie flashback and season two. He's in diapers commercial. I was going to ask you if it was the driveshaft diapers see. I think I might like it. I think I might have a good time with Josh. You are everybody. Probably we'll find some residents. We'll see we'll see and of course the final fantasy coverage if the final fantasy eight Antonio a compensation dinner there got you excited in your in your in your ready to roll with some some more final fantasy content. We've got you covered with some bonus final fantasy podcast coverage coming your way later in the week suppressor recalibrate a lot of stuff happening. Hell Yeah you are very very very busy man Josh. I'm tired and podcast the hell out of this team. There's a lot going on it and I and I actually have gotten the take and I appreciate it because certainly I'm having a hard time keeping up with all my podcast but I assume that people were not listening to every single podcast that that's being produced and what I want is. I want people to have options. You pick you pick off the menu you can have the chicken or the princess or the Avocado Salad. Whatever it is you want. What are you chicken fingers? You can have those as well Mozzarella sticks. I've been working almost every podcast this week. So food The only thing. I'm podcasting about right now. Besides this is top chef with yen. Lovely wife Emily Fox Haley strong. Kurt Clark and Mike Bloom Were special guests throughout. We're having a really good time doing that. That's over at reality. Tv WRAP UPS. But if you can't find that hit me up I'll director there but You I think I just. I know that we talk about the top chef. Podcast that we all have a good time doing that But don't work too hard man. Don't don't overwork yourself here but it also has fallen off the map here. Oh no no no no no no. We're okay we're doing all right okay. I played a lot of final. Seventy beat it in a weekend like obviously. I'm taking care of my mental health to Helena started valley. Yeah Yeah I think I'm just GONNA play final fantasy seven again. That's about to happen you better start. Yeah I'll That's going to be impossible. Dr King's Mid Guard donut me. Okay okay okay. We're GONNA work my squats and my Chin ups but a dark game is unbeatable. Everybody that's it for the better. Call Saul podcast. I'm calling it. I gotTA finish my Spanish lessons for today. All right bye take you everybody. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.

Jimmy Kim Stacey Mike Gus GUS Jimmy Jimmy McGill Nacho Varga Saul Kim Wexler Lolo Lalo Antonio Navarro Lallo Saul Goodman Agnosio Josh Lallo lalla Mexico lawler Jimmy Gill Kim Wexler Spradlin
Better Call Saul | Season 5 Finale Recap: Something Unforgivable

Post Show Recaps

1:18:43 hr | 9 months ago

Better Call Saul | Season 5 Finale Recap: Something Unforgivable

"Better Call Saul season five episode ten better call Saul season five overall is over. But we're just getting started here at post show recaps. Hello again everyone. I am Antonio Monteiro. I am here to talk about. Better Call Saul season to season five episode ten. Something unforgivable. With someone forgivable Josh Wigs Josh. Our you what did I do? That requires for nothing. You're forgivable your eminently forgivable like curse even if you did transgress in some horrible way like for example you filled my pool with chlorine or you caused me to Rub Nair Oliver my body and like my name was Mike. Bloom be fine. I think we would be fine. Someone forgivable have you ever done the trick to anybody know nor nor have I seen it done but I suppose it is something that has had a legendary right lives in the realms of Saran wrap over the toilet seat or whatever I never seen that in action either but you gotta Imagine Jimmy. Mcgillis put the put the narrative some use and it sounds like Kim Wexler curious to try the narrowing or something even more unforgivable than that as yeah. We've got a lot to talk about here on what's GonNa be our first pass of at least two passes through the season. Five finale and season five overall. These are kind of our quick from the hip reactions to the season. Five finale with some deeper materials and deeper dive into do still with your boy and mine. The Great Rob Servino. Who will return to the podcast? Up or feedback show. We're going to do a little bit down the line looking forward to that. Definitely he's looking for polls show RECAPS DOT COM said. You'd be back in that way. We're GONNA HAVE ROB here to be a good time. And I mean obviously there are big headlines to talk about. But as far as the season finale goes. I think this will be one that generates a lot of feedback because it is sort of A. Where do we go from here moment? that we see for a lot of the characters what we didn't get of course we didn't get our. Hashtag gene seen so we know we're probably going to get one of those to open next season and then we've talked about especially you've talked about. We probably will see more of those maybe throughout the course of next season because where we're leave the characters right now. Josh. We're at a path. We had speculated throughout that what we would see from gene would be gene reaching out to Kim. Wexler who made it was in her hometown. Maybe had been Hoover D- somewhere by disappearing artist. Kim Wexler we see at the end of season five does not appear to be a Damsel in distress in any way. No doesn't seem like she is going anywhere unless she doesn't have much of a say in the matter. Right and Kim Wexler without a say in the matter is unrecognizable. Kim Wexler as it stands. Kim Wow I mean if if better call Saul was kind of pitched as Jimmy MacGill's breaking bad story right this is how one man becomes Saul Goodman. This is how one man breaks bad all the way from. You know kind of like a lawyer. Who participates in some some unpalatable activities here and there but still a far cry from being the the area of the Heisenberg family. If this has been that story I think what maybe has been somewhat? Sneakily certainly has across this season. Been taking me by. Surprise has been that yet. This is Kim. Wexford has been breaking bad bro and by the end of the season. Some of the stuff that. She's talking about here with what she wants to do to do something that Jimmy describes as it would be something unforgivable. Howard Hamlin in order to to loosen the strings on that Sandpiper deal right and free up some of that money so that she can then use that money to. She's like she's talking about like Robin Hood. If Robin Hood did some like really up to the rich people he was feeling from instead of just like loosing some pouches of gold like also like pooping in their in their bedrooms. Horrible things like she is talking about. You Know Robin Hood whose broken bad. And it's just such a stark image. The end of the season. I guess really the end end of the season as well as Salamanca miraculously for him terrifyingly for for everybody else unscathed physically at least from the assassination attempt and walking out into the unknown and that in its own way is sort of a hank schrader taken a crap and having a holy shit moment at the end of season four. I believe it was or the midway point. Sorry season five heading into the home stretch of breaking bad. This belt similar to that in that like the Boogeyman is coming back. Whether whether or not it's Burge Jimmy and Kim. Or if it's for gus or if it's for Nacho or if it's somehow the perfect swirl of all of these people the Boogeyman is coming and that is something that we have to contend with in the final season but that final image before that. Is this final conversation with Jimmy and Kim in the hotel room after Jimmy has basically tried to break up with Kim. Not Having it Kim as not allowing that to happen and indeed she wants to push this idea of like basically. What's that Sandpiper money? What's Ruin Howard Hamlin? Because he had the nerve to come to me and and try and look out for me and when Jimmy is the one who's saying like you're not really seriously considering this are you and she turns it him with like the finger guns the POW POW. And then she goes back into the bathroom and the way that the cameras. Lingering on Jimmy. If this isn't the funhouse mirror of the way that we ended season four thinkers you know with the way that Yeah Saul Goodman lingering on Kim. I talk to Jimmy who is horrified of Kim and that is kind of horrifying prospect. It is for me. It's funny because I know we've talked about and you just mentioned that better call. Saul is the story or has now become a part in part. The story of Kim. Wexler breaking bad to a certain extent. A lot of these characters are facing up with this. We've talked about how that works with Mike with Jimmy with Nacho with all these characters getting further and further into the game as we're seeing in the prequels we can't really forget though that this is a Kim Wexler who can season two episode nine the nailed episode where Chuck is really facing off with Jimmy over whose client Mesa Verde will be in. Jimmy's already pulled the old switcheroo at at the copy. Place and Jimmy and Kim are sitting in bed and Kim gives Jimmy. The Lady Macbeth thing and she basically says like Hey lady Macbeth Macbeth dictionary. When I get the Lady Macbeth thing yes everywhere. Very difficult treatment. Yes let's kick them out. She basically says your brother is a smart lawyer heat. Make quite an adversary and Jimmy's not picking up on what Tim is saying. And Kim says the kind of adversary who would find the smallest crack in your defense Maybe going against him. You wouldn't what you would WanNa make sure you had all your I's dotted and all your T.'s. Crossed and then she all but looks at him and says go to that copy shop. Shut that guy up before chuck gets to him. She says nothing for him to find. This is the Kim Wexler that we have experienced throughout better call. Saul I just think that version. It's mask off and I know you had a conversation with Ray. Seahorn about this about the masks and whether it's mask off or whether it's putting on masks moment to moment what. Her thoughts are in her process and the way she looks at Kim Wexler but clearly this is something that is in the DNA of Kim. Wechsler the character. We're just seeing it really sort of emerged. She is awake Josh and she's really spreading her wings. Wake exactly yeah that soon as she starts celebrating her birthday with Bacon numbers. Then I think that's the point where we know we're really the BNB D. N. But I think that one of the things. That's really effective about this finale and I'm kind of a measuring it engaging it myself as saying the words because the Lao Salamanca stuff very explosive the text exchanges between Antonio night. These are two hundred thousand patrons for for these texts exchanges It's my watching better. Call Saul or my watching SICARIO right. Now have saluting like it really. It really took a turn with the big action scene at Lawa's likes of which we haven't seen on the show since. Oh I guess two weeks ago starting to become a little more common. That's obviously explosive. And that's obviously very external but a lot of the needle moving in this episode was very internal and subtle and Amorphous and still of shape and end physical quality. That you can't quite put your hands on it yet. I think that this is going to require a lot of conversation. A lot of deep thought as we're starting to Suss out what? The final season of this show is going to look like I mean look. This isn't like chuck knocking over the lamp. At the end of season three in his house goes up in fire. And you're left to wonder. How is the death of Chuck McGill going to weigh on Jimmy and everybody else at the time a little bit of debate of what or maybe he didn't die? But like Schmuck. Bait was the term that came out of the writer's Room. Better call so. It's not like this. It's not like that. It's not like season. Four's finale where where Jimmy Become Saul Goodman in name where he says. I'm GonNa Change My name legally and now you know what that means because we've seen Saul Goodman before so that is the that is the world we're dealing with is we're we're one step closer to the promise of the show. There isn't really a name to put on this. There isn't like a fancy you know there is not like some sort of like bright colored though you put on the season five finale. There isn't like a secretly recorded conversation here. I think that the much like you mentioned. I spoke with Ray seahorn. That interview is up at the Hollywood reporter in that conversation. We talked about how she played that moment to moment. Oftentimes she was playing that stuff in this episode. Line by line to try and see what was the truth for him at that point even for the actor. It was very intangible. It was very up for interpretation. That's the quality of finale. We are left with. We're not left with like Kim's going to become some super genius. Evil lawyer were not left with Kim's going to do something to Howard Hamlin. We're left with two sort of nebulous finger guns. That's she's shooting at Jimmy. And we now have to debate. What are the ramifications of that going to be and what will the ramifications of that a in tandem with this monster? Who has just been deeply wrong? Something unforgivable has happened to Lao Salamanca. And how is that trained? GonNa come colliding with the Jimmy train as well so a lot of dread but I think less tangible dread than maybe we're used to. Which almost makes this finale a little scarier to me. Do you think the general consensus will be one of fear and concern for the subtleties or do you think people will be let down. Because they were expecting more or something different. Probably Yeah probably would be my bet. I think I don't Wanna I don't WanNa spoil other shows other than to say like I think often you find certainly not in breaking bad breaking bad's big exception to this because the season four finale is so explosive and even if you consider wake the final season of breaking bad being cut in half as two seasons than that midseason finale is very explosive as well in its own right depending on the quality of what was happening in Hank's belly but also in terms of the size of the reveal that WWF waterway. But a lot of a lot of the shows that you and I really enjoyed that have deeper runs. I'm thinking specifically of justified and thinking specifically of the Americans have ultimate seasons that are maybe West celebrated than some of the other seasons and largely are like bodies of work that exist to like move the greater body of work into the end game. Like there's almost a sense that like these penultimate seasons are almost like chess pieces moving seasons and I think it's funny that I think that we can probably when when we're at the end of this we may be able to say something similar to that to that effect about better call Saul and its penultimate season that this was a season that pushes better call. Saul the place that it absolutely needs to be so that a lot of the things that you and I have been talking about this season the danger surrounding Kim whether or not we should be afraid for him or afraid of Kim that these are things that I think that we have been expecting to come to roost within the context of the season. But why is that the unit of measurement? Why isn't why isn't the unit of measurement something different episodic especially when there is still a full season of TV still to go? I think that because of television structure you are the royal you as a TV viewer. You are trained to expect massive movement in a finale and I think often that is rewarded and often. I think that expectation is fair. But I don't think it's. It's unfair for Finale. To give you something that is that is different and darker if quieter the way that. I think this one did so for me as somebody who is as we talked about last week. I'm just leaning in more and more and more into better call saw. I think what they're doing here is really really mesmerizing. And I actually think that even if this is kind of a chess pieces season I still think. After this finale the position holds for me that this is the best season of the show for sure and I actually think that maybe when we get to it like the whole show is chess pieces. You know the whole thing right as soon after all you know the whole thing. It's that slow motion car wreck. Everything has been that piece of the van falling off the bridge and inception and like it's all happening very very very slowly and so much is happening within that fall. That for me this Bonaly. I found to be as delicious as a Green Chili Burger at whatever the brick hotel they were staying at. Which by the way. That Burger sounded awesome. Generally good but I can totally understand if it leaves something to be desired for a certain sect of fandom and I am as I often say in these moments my heart goes out to those people and I'm very glad to not be among your number because I'm really satisfied by this well and we have to keep in mind a year from now until the end of eternity whenever that is in two years or three years or fifty years or never starting a year from now until the end of time everyone else who watches the show will go from this episode right into the beginning of season six. We won't. We are the ones who are in this moment thinking about the complications or the implications that are brought by this season of moving these pieces around the board keeping some of them alive like Lallo having some of them get further. Maybe moving to the front of that van as it's falling down. I like we saw with Kim. We are the only ones for the next year. We're going to have to deal with the weight. Everyone else is just going to go right into season. Six and this is just going to be another point of marcation just going to pull out of the menu. You'RE GONNA go from season five to season six. It may play the next episode for you automatically. You may not even have to press a button. So you're right the way. Tv is structured. Now it's very unusual and creators have to serve two masters. It's something I've talked about a lot on these podcasts. Here at post show recaps the very difficult job that people have to do when it comes to carrying water for the moment but understanding that the vast majority of people are going to drink. That water will not be drinking it. In the moment they'll be drinking it over time and so this will hit different on four twenty to those people who know watch later. We'll different because they right away. Old Josh Ridler. Who could really use it. Josh quickly you went by the initials just OJ. Oj DUBS ARPITA OJ. We're not breaking news on that but yeah so it's going to hit different to those people and so it is. It is very difficult task. I think to meet all those expectations for me. I I would be interested in feedback and we can't really know until we watched the entire series. If we would agree that having a gene in the finale would be different than having at the beginning of next season where we should move the ball on that. What secrets were being kept by moving the gene along? Maybe Kim's not involved at all. Maybe we've been. We've been tilting at windmills. With that we we have no idea it makes sense. I think that some of the major characters survived that. We didn't get a wrap up with Nacho and Papa for example and that we have we have instead we are instead of dread going into season. Six we're pushing a lot of these pieces further down the board knowing their fates are probably not good but we are dealing with a lot of that for me. There's a lot of fascinating that in the in the front of the car. Yes put it in the Franck exactly. Donald Audio's favorite part of the car for me. There's a lot of fascinating stuff just in the moment to moment and I thought what you're talk that you had with racy horn. I just thought she was really really revealed. A lot of you know. She doesn't know as they're going through. What the full arc of Kim is going to be. The writers are letting essentially that play out. they're letting the story find itself rather than writing toward clear. Endpoints Gilligan talked about this with regard to breaking bad right. He said his only real big regret was putting the gun in the trunk at the beginning of those in the final season because then they had to get to a point where they had the gun in the trunk and maybe they didn't feel like they needed to get there by the time. The actually got there so I think it's interesting and I think. There's a lot of great mirroring in this writing when tim previously in the in the series you've cited a lot her saying to. Jimmy. You'll save me. I save me and what we're maybe seeing a little bit and Kim story is you. Don't ruin me I. It's the inverse right. If Tim is the one who saves Kim Kim has also the one who ruined him. And I think this goes along the lines with Mike's bad choice road speech from a couple of episodes. There's a there's a road and there's a road road while it goes right along with that right like the. Tim Set these events in motion long ago when I was pointing to season two episode nine with her complicit treatment of the Mesa Verde Heist. If nothing else she felt like she earned it. She deserved it. She the reason she left. Hhs to begin with because she worked her ass off to get out of out of the Agatha fields at and back into the control and where she got instead was Howard kept her in the dark mushroom even though she brought Mesa Verde and this was a great sin in her mind and it was such a sin that she was ready to part H. M. No she didn't listen to Jimmy. Go into a law partnership with Jimmy. She knew that wouldn't work but yes she said. I'm unhappy H. M. I worked my ass off for that client. You didn't give me any credit for it. I'm done done so I. I think the Kim story has been a story. This is not something where they're just pushing these pieces on a board in the fifth season so that they can get to a point in the season. I think this is a natural evolution that we're seeing from this character. I think the mirroring is really really good in terms of the you. Don't save me save me. You don't ruin me. I ruin me but also the marrying terms of the manipulation Yes she does the finger guns at Jimmy if she gives him a very similar gesture to what he gave her at the end of the previous season but there are there's the manipulative moments that I think we would credit more to Jimmy McGill. I mean look. Let's talk about Sandpiper. She wants to reopen the Sandpiper case. Where she wants to get it settled. What I say reopened. I mean she's trying to tread on the same ground. Jimmy mcgeough Lardy. Did she laughs. Josh such evil Giggle when she says he yeah. You didn't do it right though like I. I would do it better. Okay so this is this is going back to the same places but with different characters and in different ways and I just think that's really interesting from a writing perspective and I don't need. I don't need the big moment of Kim being swept away by the by Robert Forster here to get that interesting level of saying man. This is fascinating and I don't know the parts of Kim Wexler. That are coming out here that this dark breaking bad push that all the way to the end of the line basically right. I mean like the episode that people walk away from breaking bad. Feeling like it's the best episode of the series or at least it's it's it's an episode that often mentioned in that conversation is the one where the chickens do come home to roost. And that's Ozzy Mantius. But that's you know there's only two episodes left after that so you know the types of things that you're mentioning that could be kind of ethically satisfying or like culminating at least if not satisfying. I'm GONNA feel satisfied if Kim gets relocated via at Galbraith. The vacuum cleaner. You know sucks up and spits around Omaha or whatever. I don't know I'll feel satisfied. But that'll be a culmination of a lot. And that could be pretty far down the line if we're following a breaking bad blueprint and that's not necessarily something that's going to happen here. In the season five finale that could be material that is coming up much further down the line. I don't know it's just it's it's fascinating stuff. Man where where we've left these characters what we're pushing towards heading into a sixth season. It's just it's very it's very wrenching. It's very unnerving and I'm really excited about it in in a way that I think as you is going to be different from how people are going to feel about it watching it note to note you know being able to go in and read this whole book wants. The whole book is available. But I do think I'm appreciating it on a different level because I had read the you know the first you know you know the first four books in this in this In this series in such rapid succession with going through one through four so quickly. It's a different show succession rapid succession. It's succession on like to explain. Oh it's not worth doing because Greg would be really funny. I said something else. I'll try and remember what it is I wanted to react to you. Had you had something else that you mentioned that triggered something very very real within me and I and I've lost it so hopefully all back up because I am curious. The just generally when we talk about Kim moment to moment mask on mask off and whether she's have we tried hair down glasses mask the mask. We tried lights off podcast on keep the mass gone. Yeah good point good point so she distance my my question in the spirit of Abigail Bartlett from the West Wing. How long has that been up harass? Like how long has Kim been thinking about the Sandpiper? Settlement is this something to you in your mind. That just occurred to her as she was talking to Howard him on a couple of episodes ago when she quit Mesa Verde. Jimmy said. What's Your Plan. You know what's your plan that's a you know you're GONNA PD cases doesn't keep the lights on what your plan. And I thought he was a real dickhead for saying that. Just risk life and limb to bring home a year's salary but I- Kim's plan. I wonder when this was her plan. Like I wonder how long it's been something that sticks in her crawl. Jimmy Scott this one to two million dollar honeypot. That will come in. When the settlement comes through and that that would enable her tapping into that money would enable her. She's the one who brought up getting married. She's the one who brings up Sandpiper in this episode. Is this something you think. She just thought of when Howard pissed off at the courthouse. Or is this something you think that she's been thinking about a while vis-a-vis her pro bono practice. She had that plan right away. I don't I don't think the listen there aren't. This isn't a comic book. There aren't thought balloons popping up over the character's heads. This is not get that version. No this isn't you know sex in the city. We're not getting like Carrie. Bradshaw I ask monologues about like what do you do when you come into one point two million dollars? There's there's nothing like that but with that said there isn't on the show that connects to me that she's been thinking about. Sandpiper all the way through what does connect to me. Is that Kim and Jimmy have fairly legendary pillow talk. They have fair fairly legendary like intimate moments where they talk scenarios through all the way down the line and that Kim is in a moment right now where and this is something that racy Horn spoke with me about is like. She's been trying to do things by the Book and look at where. It's gotten her if she tried to do things fully by the book. The start of the season was a big contrast to where she ends up at the end of the season if she tried to do things by the book and just let this guy take himself to trial he'd be thrown in jail and instead she goes with like the Jimmy Plan of like convincing this guy to like take. The deal was super upset about that like she was sick time time at the time and I think where we're at with her now over the course of the season and something that has been so gradual as to like not even like fully know that this is what's been going on is I think her accepting that the way that Jimmy does things gets results and we even had a conversation about this. I think in the season. Four finale or very close to the season for endgame which is like. I don't want to do anything like this ever again right when they're at the diner together so I don't WanNa do anything like this and I don't WanNa do this anymore for no reason for. There's no reason I wanna do it again. And now. She's doing this type of stuff again. She's talking about doing it on a very grand scale but for herself she has kind of come to grips with like there. Then it's Maquiavelian. The ends justify the means and if she is going to to dunk on. Howard Hamlin in this way. Then she's going to put it to good use but I don't think I don't think it's been like a long simmering premeditated thing anymore. Then the way that she stands against Laos. Salamanca is a premeditated Take Down I think for her. It's in the moment. She's taking the pieces that are they're assembling it into an effective weapon for the moment. You know she doesn't know what law is coming to the house where she doesn't know that law is coming over. She reacts in the moment with all the skills that are at her disposal and she comes out with something very sharp. I think that that's where she is right now. That lake morally ethically. She's at the point where she's willing to apply willing and ready to apply some. Jimmy style tactics to something. Pretty big involving Sandpiper. That's an ingredient on the table. That's been on the table and I don't think it's necessarily something that she's been thinking about for a long time so much as they're talking this stuff through for her she's like. Oh yeah well we could do that. That's the thing we can do it. The thing is for me like I can't forget that she's still the Kim. Wexler who did the Lady Macbeth thing in season two that she still the Kim Wexler who when she wanted to even though afterwards in the diner after they were in Lubbock or wherever it was and they pulled the scam with the breast milk and the additional plans and switched those documents out that she still that person who came to Jimmy and said. Let's do this She still willingly participated in what she participated in with. You'll sometimes her ends are noble like it was with Hewlett. Sometimes it's just to make a bank picker but I think she's always been involved in this sort of action as just a thing that she likes to do. And as we've talked about and we see it in this episode just the mere idea of these sort of shenanigans is a turn on to them. We see them talking about the things they could do. Howard Hamlin and we have a jump cut to them being in bed continuing the conversation. We got through the best part but it happened and it happened right after that conversation with full bellies. Mind you with full bellies which everyone knows. It's not ideal but they had and they jump right into bed smash smash ended. After they smashed. They continued their conversation. They had dessert later but still not ideal and get it. Was that conversation that led to it just like it always does for her. And this is a Kim who is talking about when she's tracking when you're talking about the end justifying the means and you're talking about her accelerating this and trying to create a pro bono practice with all this money and her saying oh well you know those seniors who maybe they'd lose two to three bucks whatever it is. They still get all their money sooner. They'd be able to actually enjoy it and spend it. She is talking against justify the means but she goes across the line a little bit and she trolley problem way says. I'm going to save all these other lives by costing the wine and she's clearly pumping gas on the trolley. That is headed at the one life when she says we're talking about a career setback for one lawyer when she's talking about Howard him and I can't help but be reminded of the Kim Wexler who several seasons ago when it happened to chuck in season three when they did it was so wracked with guilt. And get maybe seemingly is over that now that she's not reminded of that in any way so I just think this income Wexler is somebody. I've never killed a man but we're supposed to talk that. Well yes man what I what I understand upstate New York Sergei. Don't talk what I understand from fiction. Fiction likes to tell you this often right like whatever like sort of like murder show whether it's a thriller or it's like a game of thrones or whatever you always have some weary mercenary or some weary bad guy. Tell you like it gets easier. The more you kill Chuck mcgillis or I kill so has it gotten easier as a gotten more palatable. Walter White was pretty shaken by what he did to crazy eight. He without blinking. An Eye Since thirteen guys to believe that. Yes exactly in the Godfather one style. Yeah you're right. It's possible that that is that is the case with Kim. Wexler I just. I'm not sure and I thought again. I thought your talk with racy. Horn was great on this Friday. I'm not sure she knows moment to. I think are coping. Mechanisms have always been to throw herself headfirst into the task at hand whether it's staying super late and burning the candles at HMO to dig yourself out of a problem whether it's making all those calls posted notes all over the staircase in her spare time skipping lunches crushing those documents. For what was it Gatwick oil or whatever. It was getting in the car wreck on the way there. She has always gone super headfirst and pursued. These things are often at her own expense. And I don't think we're in any different territory in that regard here. She sees the goal. I think as as pro bono thing in wanting to help these people out and she's willing to do a lot to get there My question is like if those goalposts could be shifted like because she she seems to be shifting her morals in that regard vis-a-vis you saying I killed Chuck McGill and all of that pretty soon. Does it does it. Stop being in the way that breaking bad day with Walter White cooking for his family and then getting to a certain number that he made up in his head hitting that number and blowing past it and still not stopping is it. Is it going to be for her? Thing where okay. Yeah I get to focus on. Pro Bono Nava. Good pro bono practice going. That wasn't what it was actually about really enjoyed doing things. She was doing She'd liked it. She felt alive. If that's the story we're telling with Kim Wexler. I think it's important to look at where the where the goalposts have moved previously because I think they can instruct where they move in the future and so. I'm just not sure that I know how in her head this sandpiper thing was. She was able to pull it out very quickly and able to do the calculus on it so quickly there. I think at least whether even she realized it or not. It's been part of her decision making a along the tracks of this process. It is not something that just occurred to her out of them. She did look at an old person and say sandpiper. It's something that I think has been part of her mental calculus whether she's realized it or not and I think that's the fascinating part. She may not even realize what she's in the middle of it may take till the end of the series did with Walter for her to realize I liked it. I did it for me. That may be where we're headed with. Kim Not quiet out loud stuff. It's like the sandpiper thing was something that like in her head like she could do that. Math quickly enough to be like. Oh if we had that money this is something that I could do with my life but never really entertaining the thought. Because maybe she's at a point where she's either ethically and morally opposed to going down that line or she's not ready yet to admit to herself that like no. I would actually probably be all right with that. In fact indeed Lo and behold I enjoyed it. It's fascinating because it season to talk about season two episode nine but I know earlier in season two like episodes like Bali Hai and some of those first three or four episodes of season. Two when Jimmy Kim I get together and then our part. Kim is very upset because of what happened with Mesa Verde and because of happened with the cattlemen's it because of everything that happened H H. She's in the Doghouse. And she's very upset with Jimmy and she's not taking Jimmy's calls. They're not living together. Jimmy's working Davis and main living in the company housing. Jimmy's calling her answering machine leaving her messages. One of the things she says to him I something to the effect of. Let's see if you can just go like one day without breaking the rules of the Bar Association of New Mexico. Let's just see if you can do one thing. And that's when she gives that speech like you don't save me. I save me. Her problem with Jimmy at that point is how unethical he is. And I think what we're seeing out of Kim Wexler at best now is situational ethics at best. It's the trolley problem. Y'All ruin Howard Hamlin but I'll save dozens and dozens and countless other lives so it's fine. Her ethics are situational at best. Now and I think I think she's pivoting to situational ethics just as her only shield. I think re- in reality. I think she's using a sword to cut through a lot of the bullshit that she had built up around herself and she has emerged from her Christmas there in the darkness of HIV. And she certainly a different person than she used to be. I think we saw those notes before and those notes that we thought were back. Notes are in fact the dominant notes of the character. At least for me that seems to be coming to the forefront. Because it's complicated even in this episode. We have that weird sequence where she talks to the public defender lawyer and then he takes her into essentially where the bodies are so. These are all our case. It's take twenty. These are the bad ones. And she's saying she's looking for something specific but she can't really seemingly articulate what that specific thing is that she's looking for because I don't think josh she really knows. Yeah I think that's fair. Yeah and I think to that point like I think that there may be a piece pert. That feels like this has been. This has been a gun on the table all along that I could pick up and use for this cause and I can. I can take whatever doing the things that Jimmy does but doing them for a greater good for something that is not about like getting the Nice House like Jimmy says you know doing something that is like getting a shit ton of blunt of money from a ton of money and loading up and driving off with it and starting a pro bono practice getting like a closet at the courthouse to work out of so that she can do this that for her that she may be feeling like. I'm now at a point where I'm ready to take on like the Karmic toll of doing the things that I have to do. In order to get that done for for the betterment of people but that there is this visceral enjoyment that she gets out of this type of behavior that she herself is not willing to admit is like the driving thing. I don't think she knows yet. I don't think she knows the answer to that one. Either I think that that's outrageous. Seahorn that's a racy. Warned describes the character and her process with the character is she's not given the full arc of the character. She's playing its script by script and sometimes scene by scene in sometimes a line by line within the scene as in everything that goes on in the hotel room at the end of the Cayman Jimmy Story Line and I think notable that this massive turn for. Kim is coming outside of the home because that's been discussed as like the apartment at Jim. Jimmy and Kim share is sort of this sacred space while they're awake sort of like in this unholy ground there in this lavish hotel room because of this dark activity. That pushed them here. Great Room Service slurping soupy ice cream. I'm just assuming it melted You know and and coming up this this this dark incantation on Howard. Hamlet May as well be like dropping some of his hair into a cauldron. Talk about the Lady Macbeth. Believe that's what it's like. Some four there are four rooms in that hotel and this is the witchcraft one. Yeah this is. You're right like I think that's interesting to highlight that space. The way that the episode presents these events of course it gives them that sort of level of unholy inter cuts instead of having an sequence at the end with everything at La Salle lamarcus compound it inter cuts the drama of Lalla literally life and death drama where people are being shot and burned with hot grease and other things like that it inter cuts that story with Jimmy and Kim talking about Howard Hamlin so it puts it on that same level in that way. That is so dark in. It's interesting to me. That Jimmy McGill. And we've talked about this and we'll get into how it impacts the law and Nacho Vidal in a moment here but Jimmy mcgeough as we've talked about in the better call Saul opposite of breaking bad and season two. He mentions Agnosio in hollow. Everybody knows about this at this point. It's been talked to death ad infinitum that those are the names. He comes up with when he's worried that he's been kidnapped and put in the desert. What that is said to us is that we believe Jimmy at that point. Esau believes that Lilo and Nacho are alive and those are the guys that could do this to him but tells me Josh. Is that from wherever we are now until the beginning of breaking bad which. We don't have the exact timeline on this. But it's a couple of years I think to get out of jail. It's budgie right to get out of jail. Eleven months he's going to be out of jail from some for some undetermined period crazy. It's going to be out of jail. They're going to get their business back up. They're going to be in the game to some extent the Salamanca's are going to be there. But we don't know how much time is going to pass. But in that time that does pass it seems to me like the conversations that are had in this episode about. Jimmy Sang like one. Would Kim says you know you did this? It's not going to happen again. And I'm thinking on one level. Yeah right it's not gonNA happening and everyone in the room knows that's a lie on on the other hand that is true how that plays in the with the scene but on the other hand if Ignasio in law are the names that Jimmy immediately goes to when he's taken out to the desert and that already happened on better call Saul than. Is it really going to happen again before breaking bad? I'm not sure that it is. It's GonNa Happen again with Walter White and Jesse. There's no doubt about that but I think that it might be that. Jimmy is so upset and scarred by what happened with Lolo and everything that happened to him in the desert that he's not going to go back there before we see him do it and breaking bad. I can think this might be it for him and yet I feel like Kim has a long way to go before. She's at the end of her rope in terms of what she's capable of. I think we are only scratching the surface on. I don't think she knows yet. I think Jimmy actually knows. And I think it's going to take him to some nebulous point in the future as Saul Goodman to get to the point where he's comfortable making these comments to Walter White. I don't think it's going to be because he does a lot more business with drug cartels before. Then he's a low end kind of guy who has connections. His connections are Mike. He already has all those things. And the the Jimmy McGill. That's a personal injury. Lawyer in breaking bad is not the Jimmy McGill who is GonNa get over this and continue to go onto a downward spiral in the context of better call. Saul can wexler on the other hand. She is definitely headed that way. Wallo already called her. Mrs Goodman So I think that she's got the name she's going to get the reputation here. Pretty quickly We have thirteen episodes in season six. I think it's going to happen. Will specifically ask Ray seahorn. I know about our speculation about whether she could be a friend of the cartels or a cartel lawyer and she said it was great. Laugh about that by really won't translate to print that could have been construed as either like Like Oh my God. Yeah that might be where we're going or also like a band boy quite tells. I did push any deeper on it. But yeah she. She did meditate on idea of what happens if Kim's going deeper into the cartel and I like her big takeaway on it was eight The writers have as much respect and care and protectiveness over the Kim Wexler characterised. She does as an actor which is a really nice thing to hear a not anything that I disbelieve for. A minute and that the ending for that character is going to be pretty pretty spectacular. Basically no matter no matter what but the other thing she said is like. I used to think that the tragic thing that would happen to Kim. What if she dies? But isn't it worse to like? Watch somebody erode in front of your eyes like the erosion of somebody in front of you. And that is what's happening with him in it is like it is harsh to watch. And just like masterfully executed as well. Antonio you mention thirteen episodes left in better call Saul and whatever distant bureaucracy? Thirteen right whatever time that is for however long productions are able to get up and running right back to work Josh. Don't you worry about that? I'm not talking about that. That at some point in the future presumably better call Saul. Stop it. We'll get back on track with this at some point down the line and and when we do that. Kim Has a far far way to fall whereas Jimmy is kind of in a place. Where if he's a booking agnosio low in that moment that he gets taken by Jesse and Walter Has. He had too many other encounters since then and. I think that that's a good call that you know some years they're gonNA pass and if those are still the two names then either. He hasn't had much association with a situation like that since then or Agnosio and Lallo are still active threats per Jimmy. Which based on. This finale seems unlikely. Seems like that's something that has to explode relatively quickly in the timeline of where they're at right now not necessarily in terms of like amount of episodes that could take ten episodes to unravel but in terms of like the distance from that that moment in time to the moment in time where where where Jimmy is taken that it doesn't seem like it's going to be a lot of time but that or does that seems like it'll be a lot of time but that's what I'm trying to drive. That is like in the same way that maybe we expected something sharper to happen to Kim rather than something like deeper and a deepening the dread a deepening of the of the descent. That Kim Wexler has found herself upon. Can we deepen the Lallo? And Nacho of it all for Jimmy and I think we ought to pivot into talking about that stuff because it's always been like a split brain show to a degree that it's been the Jimmy Story and the Mike Story it's been the Jimmy Story and the Drug World Story and sometimes those two overlap. In this year they overlapped a lot and that was very deliberate. Feeling felt very intentional. It felt very much like the shows are combining into show is one now for the final image of the season to be la La Salle Monka who has just had his life. Threatened in the starkest of terms has lost tons of people many of whom he was close to others he was just you know giving like massive shit too and he used as a human shield credible incredible that. Lolo take operation human shield my full tactical elite assassin squad. Guys who are best at what they do right with nothing more than hot oil. Some some razor-sharp nighttime thinking and a bathroom tunnel and their own weaponry against them that the final image of the season is that fricken guy marching off into the darkness. Having said don't worry I know who is responsible for this. Yeah and having looked at the drinks and seeing his toast with Nacho and not seen Nacho he knows everything that's involved it is brutal and give the greatest moment to where the sound gets distorted as he's walking along and all the sound drops out just to clarify. Is it as simple as yet? He knows Nacho did is in. Now he's gotTa get Nacho. Is it as simple as yeah? He knows that Donald Audio maybe gave the thumbs up on this or at least spring was involved and now he's going after Gus fring. Does it verify his suspicions? That's some shit. Went down that Jimmy was evolved in and does he want to come back to Jimmy. Jimmy very pointedly learns from Mike who may regret speaking too soon that lawless Salamanca's not going to be a problem after tonight. Jimmy is talking to Kim about how that's a thing and maybe they're moving in boulder direction than they would if they knew that the boogeyman still exists. Yeah it's Super Super Dangerous. Is he marching off to see Mr and Mrs Goodman like? Is that still going on? Because I feel like the show has merged the show is itself. Now the tone at the at the at the at the counter wooden Jimmy and Kim are trading impressions of each other and Kevin Walk Dell and the tone of the show is is being embodied or La Salle Amok himself as a single entity is embodying. The tone is personifying the tone of better call. Saw Is that guy not still somehow someway on a collision course of Jimmy McGill. Yes of course. Those are the two you squeeze. Those are the two that you squeeze even though came was able to buck up her back and push back a little bit. Those are the two that you squeeze. You know exactly where they live. You know that something went down with Goodman. You probably know that you've got something for him now. It can't just be goodman. Obviously you know Nacho Varga is involved in this you know you've been coming at the chicken man so you know the chicken man is probably involved in this as well and so you're trying to figure out the connections here and you're trying to unravel that upward. You're going to squeeze anybody you can get. You're GONNA Squeeze Papa you're going to squeeze Kim and Jimmy you're gonNA. I'm by squeezing. I mean probably extract information from them through torture and kill them if you have to Because they have already died from torture so that is probably the thing that we have to be very concerned about as we're going forward. He of course has covered his tracks to by using the elite squad. Guy To say Oh yeah it was tough. But he's dead. Everything's fine we're down here. He May in fact. Fine Nacho right away right like how far. Away Nacho really be. What was there a car waiting for? Not Show was there some ability to get away from the compound waiting for Nacho. Was there any of that or did he just run out the gate like get exactly opened the gate and go and leave? But but you know. He's not calling an uber like this. Is Dan Choice Road? For NACHO for. He's on the bad choice. Road it you're right about the tonal shift and I think it's fascinating encapsulation of this title. there's another breaking there's another better call. Saul episode with the word something in the title. Right something stupid stupid and now we're not. We're not doing something stupid anymore now. We're into something unforgivable things stupid. Yes forgivable exactly. And it's unbelievable. We have transitioned. And that's a scary thought for sure and it should be scary for all of those characters. Lalo is already concerned about Michael Michael. He knew Michael was involved in the travel wire. He can probably put those pieces together but he has to know that the chicken man is involved. What I don't think he realizes and I think this is an interesting thing to talk about here. We have this whole scene this extended sequence with Donald Audio very entertaining character. It's always a party there. Donald Audio's Josh. There's also ongoing shooting at the pool. He's really wearing a shirt and a shootout. It's just a good time Donald Audio meets Nacho and we have an extended scene with Nacho and Donald Audio Donald Audio essentially signing off on Nacho becoming the new head of the Salamanca family in the United States boy did we have this scene. If it's just going to be that nachos world blew up on him. Why is Donald Audio involved in this at all well because Donald audio is a fun toy in the toy chest green and so you play with that when you get the opportunity and I think that what matters is much less? That Nacho survives the Donald Test and much more that Nacho tells us what it is he wants that he wants to live a life where he has respect but moreover that he doesn't have to look over his shoulder anymore which is all he's been doing for the better part of two years or so now outright working for freeing or even before that when he was trying to kill hector so that he could save Papa and I think to have that on the board for us emotionally because I think a lot of us have already started feeling more emotionally connected to Nachos a character. I think that the show has recently started to do some really really strong work in pushing the people who weren't already there to get to that point and I think to some degree like maybe it's GonNa be hard to get people closer to like empathy with Nacho than than they currently possess if they don't if they don't possess it yet short of like making him watch Papa die the way that Jesse had to see his girlfriend die in breaking bad which is a spoiler from breaking bad. Which you should know because you're listening to call that That to put it out there in in a scene where where Michael Man. Who's just been fantastic as this character as not joe has to survive this moment you know he has to pass the Donald Audio test because as Lallo puts it right. He's like what happens. What happens if dot does it like me? You'll be five socket wrench which is great where it's like. Let's talk about that possibility because it really won't be a concern if he doesn't like you you'll be dead. You know you're not going to be here anymore. I think it matters so much less. That agnosio gets the bump up because clearly knows what's up with Nacho now and what matters so much more is that Nacho wants nothing more than to live that life where he doesn't have to worry about people like the Salamanca's coming for him or Gus Spring coming for him or any of these people coming for him and he can just be free and man much like Poor Jesse. Pink men getting shoved into that hole in the pit and being forced to Cook Meth for a year. Who knows what the Todd Lallo to to nachos Jesse might be a in many ways. Nacho will be lucky if all he gets is like a swift shot to the back of the head definitely that might not be. What's coming up? My Bet would be. This is a show that really likes to make a meal out of tormenting the characters existential. I think that nachos world of hurt. But I don't know that the pain and suffering and swiftly for him and that is a horrifying prospect. I think that that's what the scene is for and you have Donald addio there. Because that's fun. Let's put put together. That's Donald Audio being. There makes a lot of sense because I think the underrated part in its credit to the actor into the editing a better call Saul to see one Bolsa who even in these like just snippets where the camera lingers on him? Maybe a half second longer than what you would expect. But it's enough for us to realize Juan Bolsa is hard out on Lala Salamanca. He is not a lawless of the MANCA fan. He's bad for business. Here's a fan. Because freeing makes that money Josh Frank Stacks paper for Juan Bolsa. Like no other and he is very low. Risk Lawless ullmark is already he is all Glitz and Glamour and of Course Donald Audio love this Donald Audio in previous seen. We've seen loves money. And he likes the money. The took in man brings in more than actress. Lamonica BUT LALO. Salamanca is a hero at that party people. Oh He's just walking up kissing babies. We'll know babies but he's kissing anything he can shake hands. He says Charles Manson. He's just happy to see everybody. That's there poolside in Donald audio loves Lalo Salamanca. Juan Bolsa does not and so it will be fascinating. I think to see how that bigger hammer in the actual cartel plays out vis-a-vis. What's those revenge going to be? Is Juan Bolsa? Going to back. The chicken man is going to back whiloe. How will that really blow back on? All these people on fascinating stuff I think for sure and I just seeing those moments with Juan Bolsa and Donald Audio I am. I'm just. It's very clear to me. That one does not like Lalo but the Donald audio loves him JUST BIG TIME. Fan Magnum. Pi Everything there was really really really fun. I love everything with law this week and like even like it got me really thinking about the types of people who do their best thinking at night. You know what I mean. He talks about how I don't sleep. I sleep maybe two three hours a lot of people. Think like that's gotTa make you feel lonely but no it's the only time. I can think I get my best ideas this late. Because everything's so quiet. I mostly sleep through the night Antonio. I tried to. Tuck away around eleven pm ish somewhere in that realm maybe midnight but definitely had those nights where like they've been sleepless and I've gotten out of bed at like two thirty in the morning or three in the morning. And just like gold strands of gold from the brain out into the world at least at the time. It feels that way and I thought that that was just such an interesting take on Lal Monkey that really humanized him in a way for me and it serves this dual purpose of like it both kind of deepens him as a human. It's a triple purpose as I'm thinking it through more dimensions beyond that but it's humanizing humza person of like putting him in that space of everybody'd many people most people would think know what that like that insomnia brain feels like if not like on a regular basis and at least from time to time. It provides an element of horror because here is the monster by the bonfire as as nachos trying to do the Eric. Cartman thing where he is all but naked invisibly trying to escape the Salamanca compound and then the third purpose is it gives you sort of like plausible belief in Lonzo Salamanca's ability to turn this shit around against the whole hit squad. No wide awake. I'm wired and I know exactly what to do right now because the shit is year and I've prepped for this and it's nighttime and it's my time to go to the bathroom get underneath some go through the tunnel maybe take half a segment about how all these people I love are definitely getting wasted. But then I'm GONNA come back and no one's going to expect me and I'll get the drop. Everybody and I think very cleverly. The show gives us the escape but doesn't give us the return and just like allows us to kind of imagine what most of that looked like. That almost makes him so much scarier that if if we watched the granular ways in which he has prepared his way out of the situation. Then you really believe in his genius and then if you just sort of see like some of like the horrifying ways in which he. He overpowers people but just like a couple select examples. That's just enough like him. Like taking the aim at the person further down the tunnel in just like without any remorse spraying bullets down the tunnel The way that the way he engages that final guy if you weren't already petrified of follow this episode really. Does some great work at getting you to to really feared this guy in. Fear whatever's coming next for him and I think it is very compelling to consider some of okay. So he is. He's down here in Mexico. He's close enough to To to Donald Audio and Juan Bolsa that you imagine it's likely that there's some further scenes between the two of them between the three of them. But what does that look like? Those characters are both going to survive to breaking bad at least Sophie as an ax to grind against them. How did they get off? How does that happen without it? Just being well Osama Kaz dispatched very quickly. That happens if he's alive through the finale. I think that that's with intention right. We're keeping that piece on the board so that he could be meaningful in these next thirteen episodes if not all of them at least a chunk of them even three. That's still they still want to move him that much. Further down the pike that there's he has more business to do on bad choice. Road definite I'm glad thrilled that we were wrong. I'm I'm so happy we were. I'm very happy we were wrong. That Lonzo we fought. Lawler would die in the finale and everything about the finale was like okay so this is like the La Salle Manca exit story and we didn't get that and I'm psyched about that. Because now we get to see more. Tony Dalton. Who's remarkable in this role and we get to see? What is he going to do to some of the people that we really really like? And that's going to be horrifying to watch but he just brings such a different energy to the breaking bad universe than some of the other villains that we've seen he's like he's like smart. Toco you know he's like somebody would like that sort of giddy danger but also like gus spring levels of intelligence and I think they've really. They've earned that with this character and the portrayal of the character. She's sakes his death now. At this point he will get away last. How much time does that by him? This is what I want to know. Do you think there's a chance that Lonzo Salamanca was also then still alive in the breaking bedtime line in hiding somewhere somewhere deep in Mexico. He a loose end. Is there a possibility Josh? However remote that we saved the saul character for a BA- a breaking bad prequel. Are we saving Lalla Salamanca for a breaking bad sequel and like not dealing with him in better call Saul Right? He's not he's not going to be dealt with he's going to. He's going to do something. And maybe disappear and we won't know his fate in breaking bad. We won't have resolved that in better call saw. He's off the table. He's in hiding somewhere in Mexico. He's not involved in the events of the chicken man who Heisenberg for various reasons. Reasons that we will find out Josh and breaking Lilo or better call low or while those your uncle. Whatever it's called I don't know what's called your Lolo. No ballo now. I HOPE NOT. I want to see a breaking bad. Sequel centered around Tony. Dalton Law with the character is good but not that. Good more from this run. We're going to deal with the story. You think in the context of better call Saul hope so episodes maybe not all of them include Lalo but some of them are going to any station of the show. He he he's he's he's become a really excellent poster man for the the bad choice wrote it. Oh he is. He is the one who knocked last week and he was summoned by Jimmy. He was summoned into Jimmy's world. He represents in such a literal way all of these things that Jimmy has brought upon his house. He's the perfect better call Saul Villain in the way that your protagonist on better call saw is funny. You're in many ways. He's still tragic character. Much like Walter White. But he's funnier and he's lighter than than Walter White at times. This is like if the adversary for Walter White was GUS fring Who is like this cool? Calm collected business-minded hyper intelligent meth overlord. Like that was the perfect person to pit against Walter White because it was just like a mirror version of him. It was just like two two of the same. And that's what made that battle so powerful throughout season for that like totally at least Lalla really matches Jimmy It's meant to be part of this show. I feel pretty strongly about that. I know that like like there's the temptation to do the neagh thing and this is going to be like the spin off. That Robert Kirkman has threatened with like the walking dead comic books. Can you spin off? Yeah that could be. Fun is a very fun character. But it's so much more satisfying. It's such a better choice. If you just bring that story to its rightful end here with these thirteen episodes. Don't hold him out. Don't hold them for the next thing. That's why these shows have been as as they are. They don't save anything for the swim. Back they keep it they keep it in play here. I would be really surprised if he doesn't play a massive role in the final season. And I'd be unless they can find like a really strong way to do it. I would be pretty out on the idea of a spin off. I'm not saying I'm in or out. I understand what you're saying and I agree with it. I I do wonder when you talk about not saving anything for the swim back. I do wonder if it's opposite if maybe there's some regret for some of the choices that they've made and by making a prequel and by realizing that they're put themselves in these situations. We've talked a lot. I know I gotta move on man. I know I have friends and families in New Mexico. At this point they have crews that live there. They love being there. Maybe they want to continue to work to work there. Come up with something. New Vacuum Falter White. And Gus fring or from the Albuquerque drug trade in the world of better calls in the world of breaking bad natured. Horsa vacuum. Somebody's gotta fill that so I don't know I'm not saying it's likely I just think that it's interesting to think about as a possibility like I said part of me is I agree with you. Guys they have that everybody should move on whatever I mean I agree on that level at least somewhat as much to joke about it a lot. They joke about like all. We're GONNA do this next. We're going to do that but I do. I do just think that there is. There is at least some world where the they're leaving cards on the table. Lou. Who who knows what happens. They're leaving cards on the table. In that regard one of the things that has bothered me about the more we get to know about gus ring and I know you're not on the same page with me about this. Is I feel differently about the events of breaking bad in light of everything I know from better. Call solid this point not so much about the Jimmy McGill part like yeah like like I said. He is experienced a lot of what he's experienced. Now to be. The Jimmy McGill better. Call Saul. The slide is not that drastic at this point. Yeah he's a ski easier guy especially in public. We don't see his private moments as Saul Goodman. But he's much ski easier guy in breaking bad and he's gross and he's just kind of a slime bag a lot more especially publicly but as far as that goes. I don't think we have that much to go in that realm. We have to separate him from Kim or we have two more clearly compartmentalized this all goodman law attorney from Jimmy Gill with Kim Wexler. But what I don't think we have done is I think what we've done now by personalizing and humanizing some of these other characters more. Is that the story with Walter. White hits differently now And I don't know they don't know how I feel about that and I'm not sure how the creators feel about it. They're the ones writing it. But I bet if I bet if they had their druthers. They wish they had save some for the swim back. In some instances and I'm not sure then maybe I know but again what will you do for money or what you do for the opportunity to shoot in New Mexico On film like what will you do for these opportunities to do these things? And is there a possibility? A lot of people when breaking bad was made said the better call Saul shouldn't exist so here we are. I would never rule out the possibility that they could continue to make compelling television with these characters especially if they weren't painted into care by outcomes that were predetermined the way to do that. I don't I don't think follows necessarily the way to do to base show around him but I think the you you mentioned something that's interesting to me is. The vacuum nature loves avoid It's gotta fill the void and what comes after. Heisenberg could be a compelling story depending on the characters that are thrown in there. If it's gotta be largely new cast. Can you do that in a satisfying way? Is there a Skyler White Story to tell? That's really cool. I'm open to that but I would. I would much prefer them putting their very very well honed energy into a totally different universe. That could absolutely still shooting albuquerque. Because I think that they know that that world so well and they bring it to life so gorgeous I would. I would love to see more of that and it's just an I mean you talk about the walking dead Robert Kirkman Spin Offs. What have you? Amc is in the Vince. Gilligan in gold game. Amc's in the walking dead game. So I'm not saying that. Amc AMC would be open to. It sure was so. If it's Gilligan's deal with Sony that really matters more and I think that they would be inclined to just do whatever it is he wants to do. Yeah if Gilgen wants to do another. I don't know how involved in Battle Creek. He was was like mega involved in that. I don't know either. We're getting winters. But we're getting pretty far afield with mayhem there. But it's just it's fascinating to me because these shows echo each other so much and there are these sounds that that are made in one scape in resonate in another And not only in the context of their own shows but in other so I can't help but feel there might be when there are ripples when Iraq is thrown into the water in better call Saul that there's ripples can can go into breaking bad we already know that's the case. I'm they can certainly outlasts breaking bad and that's a question of are there any ripples here that they could revisit? I think Tony Dalton of course is a character. Of Course Kim. Wexler is another character that we could. We could really continue to mine out depending on where we put her where she ends up. And she is one. Whose echoes our resident here. I thought it was really fascinating just emptying my notebook very quickly as we wrap up here. I thought the conversation if you think about I was thinking about the conversation with equal by the way that I am here for it. Yeah so it could happen like there. Are these characters who you know if you're saving things for the swim back like that Thing that you save and that you didn't swim on the way over you know you saved it all there. That's a thing. But that's what she's like. She's a line like the lines shooting up. Yup that's continuing. I think that I think that you can have very satisfying hearing metaphors there once. I don't know what you'd Meth. So yeah you smoke it. I believe is the name way of of ingesting that but I was reminded of the conversation in season. Three episode seven expenses Where Kim Jimmy are? Jimmy's had some real issues with chuck. It's right after the Chuck McGill Trial And they're at a bar and Kim a little unsure about how she is treated. Chuck Jimmy is all in. And He sees a guy that reminds him of chalk and he goes to a very dark place and he says you know what we could do to that mark is. We could sell a scam credit card. All you'd have to do is look at him and he'd be all in and the Jimmy goes off on off the Rez. And he goes to a dark place and Kim's like we're just talking about this right. We're not really going to do it. They have almost the same conversation with their legendary pillow. Talk as you called it in this episode when Kim is talking about what to do to Howard and it is really Jimmy. Who's basically saying like? Hey we're just joking right like we're not gonNA really do this to Howard like he doesn't deserve it like so. It is fascinating to me the way these things echo and the way that you can have something happened. In one season of the show that echoes and in his is mirrored or it is resident in a different way in a later season of the show. And I think of course that's happening across the shows and it really just echoes throughout the stories of these characters. So I think anything's on the board. I think they can continue to back reference themselves. I think they can plant seeds in the prequel that that are fertile for the the actual breaking bad. Of course they're going back and they're they're a crossing a lot of t's and dotting a lot of is that they hit introduced and breaking bad like how. Amelia became an informant and things like that. So they're they're really cross pollinating a ton as we approach the final season of. Better Call Saul. I got to imagine when you talk about saving things for the swim back. They're going to white whatever they've got left on that board and say whatever we had left that we wanted to talk about in better call Saul because of the things we talked about and breaking bad. We're doing it like we gotta get that done so I think as we look forward to a season six a better call Saul. We should probably consider from a prequel standpoint. What do we think there still is on the table? And I'd love to hear feedback from people about what people think. There is still on the table. I was GONNA say that we've got that coming up from the context of better call saw from the contracts are breaking bad. Like what is there that you think better call Saul still needs to hit or are we on? Its own at this point. Do we only have to close up our own loopholes from better call Saul Josh. My question is are we to the point with the darkness of this show and Laos still being around. Are we going to see the makeup crew? Makeup TV film crew again are. We're going to see Jimmy's film school. Kids again Dun Dun Dun Bill Oakley. We're getting more Bill Oakland over getting all of these people. Yes you have to right yeah. It doesn't matter if Lolo is marching around. Take everybody's scalps like. You still have to board if they can come up with an inventive way to bring those people back into the mix. Those are those are all still people who are still on the board of staging some kind of large event that includes the makeup in film crew and includes. Bill Oakley Rallo kills all of them right right. I mean I think I think like could Jimmy like fake Kim Wexler death on TV or something. You know an interesting question for me. I mean we hit always speculated that Kim would leave Jimmy because of his antics and Jimmy leave. Ken wanted to in this episode. It was ready dead. I think we're I think we're headed in that direction. I think so too. I think Jimmy's the one who pulls the plug not Kim. I think that's likely wealth. There's anything else that people want to get to us or feedback or thoughts of a final sees a better call. Saul how how should they reach out to us? Josh and advance our final feedback. Show and we don't have a date yet scheduled on recording that so that means you definitely have days to to send stuff in. I can't imagine we're talking. We're talking solved until at least the weekend. Maybe next week. A little bit So plenty of time. Bcs At post show RECAPS DOT com. It's our email address you can. You could send in your feedback there. You can also hit us up on twitter at round. Howard like Ron Howard. That's me or at Zara. With how many how many ours. Tuesay's one are and one unusual connection to that will make Donald Audio very skeptical but also laugh Absolutely favorite moments of the episode. So a lot to still chew on think like I definitely don't feel ready to put this all to rest. I'm really excited to get rob steak and everything. I know that Robson watching along. He's been listening to the podcast as well as he can. So I think it's GonNa be really fun to get his take on everything from the season and also to do that in conjunction with with people speed back and I think coming up with ways to think about like sequencing the breaking bad universe the more and more we talk about it the more more open at least entertaining the conversation. I am tease stakeholder. Swayed you in like five minutes. Like you're going to be all in when they actually come up with the people who are paid to do this. Come up with a good idea for him. You know I am. I'm a person who. Id to sit with an idea for a while. I'll probably tell you something very declarative in definitive about something and then three days later even three minutes later Hank schrader style where I guess. It's Michael Boston style. I'll have a totally different. Take notice this about you. Really this new. This is definitely not something that you picked up on so like. That's happening right now. So I'm thinking about some of the ideas and the more I think about him the more I think that they're all probably bad and then I'll think about him again. Think that maybe some of them are actually good. So let's dig into that. We got that feedback show. Don't dig into the psychology of me and decision making in my my my fickle nature. But let's dig into the possibilities of what could exist beyond both breaking bad and better call Saul. I'm open to that discussion. I think the feedback would be a great forum to do that. Especially with with rob on the horn. I'm excited about that And as unexcited and worried as I am about a murderous Lolo rampaging through our characters lives here. I'm excited to talk about the possibility of that. With Rob and everyone's feedback. I. We're so thankful to everybody who listened Throughout this season and we're very excited to talk about what your thoughts were everybody about the finale and about this show as we stand on the precipice of a season six a better call. Saul hopefully not eighteen months away like the break between seasons four and five whenever it comes we will God willing and shall be here to talk to you about that anything else. Josh before we wrap no not a thing nothing from me either. Thanks again everybody. Look forward to talking to you. Get on the feedback show by.

Jimmy Kim Burge Jimmy Kim Wexler Howard Hamlin Saul Jimmy McGill Josh Ridler Saul Goodman Nacho Mike Salamanca Jimmy Kim Wow Ray seahorn Jimmy MacGill Jimmy mcgeough Lardy Walter White Jimmy Plan Jimmy Scott
Bonus Episode: Rhea Seehorn

Cinephile: The Adnan Virk Movie Podcast

30:03 min | 10 months ago

Bonus Episode: Rhea Seehorn

"All right a special guest here in. Sinophile long in the making I saw her and her husband. Graham Larson is a great guy. Last year critics choice awards. We ended up doing a video. Me and my buddy Max for raise kids and that's why racy Hornell is kind to join us. You know her playing Kim Wexler and better call Saul which is nothing short of the best drama right now on television and for my money. She's as good as any actress working in television. She's been so good playing. The role of Kim Wax particularly the last couple of years in the last two episodes have been as good as dramatic. Television gets racy Horn joins US now. Thanks so much for the time. Thank you and there's more reasons than just meet bribing you into making a video for my boys. Well they're big sports fan so I appreciate that. Hopefully life will go back to normal. At some point your boys will be able to watch sports like all the rest of us and I'm sure right now. They're so proud of his mom is entertaining all of us before we get into the show. How are you doing how I couldn't imagine what it's like in California a lot of friends there but just day to day obviously with your boys and just I mean home schooling? I'm sure there's a lot of challenging adventures right now cabin fever how you hold it up. We have. We are holding up mostly taking day by day And you know we're still going back and forth the boy's house to our house and that's about the extent of any traveling doing but it's we're we're thankful you know we try to sit in a place of gratitude most days. Of course it's nerve wracking. Stir crazy It takes a lot for families and parents that are trying to do this distance learning at home and all that but you know I was telling the boys the other day. There's tons of kids that have no Internet. No ability to have any of their education continued right now and not. That's a thousand times worse. You're absolutely I was thinking about that as well. I can certainly rural communities impoverished people. Don't have computers you know. There were relying on schools. Actually giving them meal. So you're right. Listen ride home. The cable works. The food's good with their loved ones and I couldn't agree with you. I think you're right is that you've got to look at it day by day if somebody said you. Hey Ray you can't go back shooting for six months or you know what kids you're not gonNA go back to school until two thousand twenty one. That's too overwhelming so I'm with you just take day by day for now. Data time at the end of time. If you have the means to give you need to give to the people that can't make it through today. You know when I saw those pictures of the Food Liden for people who just need to eat tonight. That's a lot different than me worrying about. I won't be able to go back to work in two months like if you can if you can give today then you need to give today and then we'll all take tomorrow when we get to tomorrow no question and a lot of celebrities who have been doing that and pitching fourth and listen on its own level. You're giving us a lot by giving us. The entertainment of better call Saul the last two episodes in particular mean. I noticed Vince. Gilligan directed the episode. Two weeks I said okay. That's why this episode is so unique in the angles. It's beautifully shot for those who don't of the show. Jimmy's in some real trouble. Now he's out there in the desert and barely surviving and You've got that great scene there. Were trying to kind of lobby to find out how he's doing but particularly last episode. Ray I mean. I'm still getting chills right now. That the tension in that land sea and the way your character stands up to the bad ass. And I'm like Oh my God please came. I hope you're going to be okay. Oh God oh God. Oh Mike's cut your in your sights. Oh no what's going to happen for audience. It's so nerve wracking. What was it like onset? Like how are you guys able to ratchet up that tension because obviously we're so invested in your character and Jimmy and what's GonNa happen but we don't know some curious for you guys? How are you able to bring that tension to that scene? I mean if I read it I was like. Oh boy here. We go and Tom Schnauzer wrote and directed at He wrote not seen that. Michael Moore direct episode before that where What would be a break-up argument that keeps ratcheting up? And then I turn stay or we could get married so tom likes to spend on a car over a cliff and see what and this is one of those things but I was like homeboy. This is That's what it's about for all people Obviously I had the great fortune of contracting and then getting to perform with any time. I've been the room with Bob Corker. Now Tony Dalton his tremendous as well I knew they were going to bring it so it was about all of us homework. And then we had the luxury of a Full rehearsal before we shot it because they do need the heavy lifting performance wise. We usually get lots of takes and run the scene and and really find the best about Path to navigate through the roller coaster ride scene. Because they're not always an obvious arc And in this case we knew he needed even more time for all of us came six at the day or one or two days before I let Marshall. Rtp Watch what. We ended up organically finding on walking wires in town. That's my of how to shoot it as well but Yeah you just had to go in with She comes she comes out of the cannon with the Confrontation to him after being completely silent for a long period of time. So I knew that my homework would have to be in those moments and figuring out. Where do you go from? How'd you land on that being your only choice? How does she get back against the wall enough? And I think it's from watching I want And the scene. I watch told me and I watch Bob and and figure out she knows. There's a part of the story. She doesn't know yet and she gauging. How bad is it and when when Lolo gets more menacing and Julie's not giving she re I am for my for my money. I thought that's when she starts to do the math of other something very bad but he's keeping an. It's a secret he thinks is worth how dangerous. This just got so. I've got to help him. Keep whatever the secret is to let me know what it is is besides the point beside the point and then and then though the thing you know how thing Tony does. I went to what I think. Tim Can actually handle emotional difficulties very well. She suppresses them and chooses pragmatism work How do you logic yourself out of the house? How I came to that decision as well. She's got A. She thinks the only way she can deal with. This is like it's in in court. That's the only superpower she has right now and and I talked to the costume designer. We about do we think. She's taking their shoes off. Like what's definitely have her shoes off earlier in the scene because I wanted Tony to be even more towering over me I wanted for her to physically be small so that So that the monologue can shine even more. What what Tom Brokaw she what she says and I take it a time. Common both came to the conclusion that I really don't think she planned the whole thing. Planned like one or two sentences hoping it would be it would end and it's not an then two more but that's a great point ray. Because I got that since. We're watching you play. You know what I mean like. This show is visual. It's so cinematic. I mean that's shot of you looking at the Cup in the bullet hole and recognizing like there's there's not a wasted emotion and you guys don't use dialogue if it's not necessary when Kim just sees that and nosers a bowl hall. She knows some stuff went down. And that's it and later on when she she's not even confronting Jimmy she just says hey. Listen in a very nurturing manner. Hey I know some stuff went down out there and if you WanNa tell me like I'm here for you. And of course he tells me drank which is true and he hadn't told her that Bart but she knows he still hiding something. I'm with you that this isn't like one of those monologues. It's not like you know long days journeying tonight like Oh my God. Here's this big like he's GonNa come through. I don't know I. I think you're absolutely it's incrementally building. It's almost like somebody who has used a chemist so straight laced right always picked you the hair pullback in the bond and the business soup and it's almost like you're starting to get unfurled a little bit and it's like I agree with you. It felt like it was coming in waves. And you're going. No no no no stop. He's GonNa kill you. No no no stop steps up but it's almost like you're gaining strength with each delivery which I thought was amazing. Thanks good good. Good thank you I I mean I I especially I think when I look at the show like I said the the cinematic nature of it and just how visually strong it is like you? I was looking back at some seventies movies. Obviously if someone's going back to I was watching like days. Heaven Paper mcdonagh film and I'm looking at just like shots of like you know the the rustic landscape and it's amazing when I watched better call Saul because especially in a time like now we're all of us are cooped up and dealing with the prison of our own self-isolation like that show is so dreamy. 'cause I literally feel like I'm in Albuquerque. I've never been and it's not even just like wide lush shot it's unique angles have a sense of that. When you're on set how it's all GonNa come together. How are they going to come together? Not as much because our our don't have I wish I did. But the talent of our post production people as well. It's just so much of what they're doing is is what's on screen as well editors Go a little Chris Michaela And SKIPPING DONALD ALL. These people are the footage In an entire it has been said before but the the they say like Shows or films are made three times once in the ones on the writer's room then once when it's actually being Filmed and performed and then the third time is in post production when it's edited and it's really true and so seeing the beautiful archery of what people are doing. After the fact Is always the pricing and awesome to me while we're shooting. I'm aware of additional coverage and the hair into not just the angles and the shock. But what's in the art department An everyone costumes props everyone involved with the compositions. That are very specific. Where where the pens are what color? The chairs are What our autumns look like next to each other what they look like next to this wall. But what color about walls painted Everything is a decision that's made In Service of the storytelling in creating these these visually stunning paintings in their own right each one of And for any of your viewers don't know what I mean by the extra coverage if you thought of in the most simplest of terms uber shooting scene and you thought okay you always have to geographically. Let us know where we are. Where people are so. That's going to be your wide Three people in in an apartment and and they're moving and I need to see that they sit down on a couch and then Tony in the middle. Then you're going to start doing Mediums and close ups of the person talking and then the person receiving that Dialogue and speaking back in these kind of things. Those are the normal ways to go about it. I'm aware when we're doing specialty. Shots Shooting Coffee. Pot shooting through the Fish tank Through the aquarium on shooting my for the bullet hole. Certainly the montage split-screen seen both times. They've done those when there's this imaginary line down the center. We can't see the line so Marshall has to come up with how to get the Lens to How to have be on screen in only up to the line that they're going to be creating later and post because it's not there while we're me so they've got like cage down the center of the screen trying to figure out what. Where is my half of this montage offer completely aware of but it's not laborious? It's exciting being part of that. Because I know the visual language of this show is a whole nother character unto itself and And and has to be serviced. And it's exciting and fun to watch how they do it. It's a great point. You made it but how it's put together in three steps so let me take you back to the writer's room then in that just the essence of unpredictability because I think this season in particular and better call Saul. It's so unexpected what's happening. I was so shocked that I'm pretty sure Kim's going to break up with Jimmy because she knows he's lying instead she says or we can just get married when you're throwing beer bottles after a long day on the balcony. These scenes are so memorable and they just party says well. That came out of nowhere. I couldn't expect that happening but if you know the show as well as I think I was walls. Everybody who's watched every episode. You got it does kind of make sense that Kim and Jimmy. We'll get married yet does. GonNa make sense. Chuck Beer balls out the window and she is Kinda more like in than people realize what did like for you when you look at the pages and go okay. We're going in this direction. Sounds cool. It's it's exactly what you're describing as a viewer. We got the scripts only one at a time. I don't know what's going to happen in the next episode. I'd never do when I'm doing one one episode. I have no idea where they're going with the next one So you just have to play the moments in front of you. And when I'm even just reading them. The first time in their joy to read their so exciting. I mean they give me agenda. But that's exciting I'm flipping the pages bring what and then what and then even when you get seems like you're talking about the the Usually written and Churkin's episode where it starts with a balcony beer bottles seen that has some dialogue. But it's minimal and it's very strained. And she put Georgia's Lee called him saw for the first time An end with showing the essence that they still do have of this relationship where they can silently be with each other a million. No you get me and I get you I. I know she's still holding onto the Jimmy that's underneath and he. I think she feels seen by him and known by him In a way that she doesn't really believe of other people and they can just sort of be there for each other and they used to. We started the whole theory with one cents in a parking garage sharing cigarette and I have half the sentence he has happens and I the half the sentence and I never forgot like okay. If you compare someone sentences sentences then you. You're you do know each other extremely well. You've been around this person for really long time A now here we. Are you know in five seasons later and we don't even have to talk. We can finish each other thoughts without speaking and throw and realized. Like we're gonNA throw these bottles and I get excited when I read all of this and the are we going to get married Or or Confronting follow on doing an impression of Kevin Walks l. with Statue Statue Statue. And He Jimmy doing impression of being A really great episode as well. They're all surprises to me. And as an actor I go. What's what's happening. And then you take a moment you step back from it. And as soon as I go into Kim Pat and trying to do my homework on the scenes and breakdown. What is she thinking? Where did she come from before this? And what's happening in this moment Then it doesn't feel like a shocker. It never feels manipulative of the audience. Never feels like it's just a grab or something to for shock value in mean. I don't own yeah. I see why this person would be a big play and I understand. I mean we're so we're as humans in real life. Were very bizarre. And we have bizarre reaction. You know the the most common one is like you know somebody who starts laughing at a funeral. Very non linear reactions to things in life. All the time and It's it becomes such a fun puzzle for me to take the things they pick. That are not the most obvious thing like Oh clearly you behave this way when this happens because that's not real life anyway. Not to mention this heightened poetic universe that we're living in on better call Saul so it's shocking and fun as a fan and then I start to do my work and I go. Yeah no I got it all. It is very complex humanity. Humanities is the perfect word for it because one of the great tricks of the show is this ostensibly. It's about a show. That's a prequel to the breaking bad universe and it's about Saul Goodman. Who's funny likable guy? And Bob Odenkirk is so clever and quick witted and actually no. It's a tragedy. It's dark show it's about Jimmy. Mcgill went to the dark side and I loved Michael mckean Guy. We could talk with him for days. I thought he was so good as Chuck Machiavellian character but but the show went from being about Jimmy Transportation Saul Goodman to really about Kim Wexler and I think you become the MVP the show. I'm not the only one saying this. Scott farmers been saying this from the Hollywood reporter Alan separate walls been saying it rolling stones and go and I can actually typify ran one moment for you because this was the moment like. Oh my God. This show is really about Kim. Because we are Kim. It's heartbreaking for all of us. You know it's like Shakespearean Right. The is the windows to the soul your the window to see him. What's happened to Jimmy? And here's the scene. It's when Jimmy reads the letter from Chuck. And he's so flippant and he's so callous about it and your character starts crying ice at all my God. How could you not get swept up in that kind of emotion I remember? I asked you about this senior year ago but for our audience explain. Why does Kim in that moment gets emotional That was a wonderful Gordon. Smith wrote that and Dan directed it and We I know some people forever and I kind of Love I. We have such avid fans that they come up with multiple interpretations of things sometimes. And there's really no wrong or right to some people's theories I will say in that moment what was being played and what was intended was that she did not write this letter. This was not a manipulative thing. I don't think she actually knows what's in that letter on so I had to give it a lot of thought of like because she's we see that Kim is not someone who breaks down easily. She really fights to keep her emotions in check And not just being vulnerable or like you know being a crybaby at all of her much. She's still person who tries to compartmentalize and suppress any kind of extreme emotional response to things And obviously we're seeing that erode now in the current season as well even with anger she just can't keep things down anymore but Not Seeing I talked with Gordon and I talked to Dan Why why this much emotion? Now what is it that? What is the lump in her throat that she can't swallow this time and we really thought it's a lot of things and that kind of scene is difficult to play not to pat myself on the back but just to speak technically about it. It's difficult because your character needs to Respond to something that's entirely internal because yes. Jimmy's callousness with reading. It is part of what affecting her But she's having an entirely different internal or interior monologue hopping of thoughts that he's not participating So you have to take off yourself and come up with what is its interior monologue. That's happening and for me. It was about It's about the specifics that are happening in the room. Which is Oh my God. Chuck actually did say something kind about you but you are. So you mean Jimmy. You are so Removed and distant and unreachable right. Now that it's not affecting you in any way and it's a little bit horrifying to watch but I think ultimately it's incredibly tragic to her because she's afraid that her partner has fallen down a well that she'll never get along enough rope to send to him And it's a much bigger picture of the the tragedy of the two brothers and the tragedy of chuck the tragedy of how he went out and what they did their part and not And the fact that this this relationship will forever scar to me and it's going to be even worse now that it ended this way and the final result would be a positive thing that chuck should have said years ago. Not Wait till you kill yourself and leave it in a letter And the whole I think she's crying over the entire tragedy of the Jimmy McGill story and I do think that she loves him And is desperately trying to be a good partner to somebody that's grieving and that was a lot of that season had to do with navigating somebody's grief and most of us have been there in our lives whether you're the person grieving or you other support for someone. Grieving grief is a very weird thing. And so that's why. I decided Kim would immediately excuse yourself physically from the situation. As soon as Jimmy sees her crying she abruptly trying to get out of the room. And it's because I saw. I thought Kim with you as a selfish I do too. I don't want him to take care of me in that moment. I'm supposed to help you through grieving. The suicide of your brother And so I think it was important for her to immediately want to be out of the. That's amazing I mean that answers always is seen which is really a testament to how much effort and work you put into it all right more from racy coming up right after this. Here's a new podcast MC say to share with all of you it's by Malcolm Gladwin. It's called go and see produced by the team. High revisionist history go and see a six part series focused on Lexus and the philosophy again cheek and boots or which means go and see for yourself then idea that stems from the belief experience. Something yourself better understanding people and how to create something for them in this series. Laxest invites will to Japan to discover their unconventional thinking and processes firsthand find out. How a Japanese tea ceremony influenced engineering of a car window. How the sound of an engine is to make a musical composition to elicit certain emotions. How Understanding Samurai warriors is led to a suspension innovation? Gladwin learns that. No detail is left behind and that a car company can learn more cars by studying people go inside. Lexus headquarters in Japan right along the top secret test track of the master driver. Sit in the expertly designed seat that actually lowers to walk into the vehicle. Follow glad will on his journey which started march fifth wherever you like to listen visit. Lexus DOT com slash curiosity for more stories like these. I have a couple of dreams of a couple of wishes for you. One is God. Please can the enemies not even just nominated you? Can you win for God's sakes because the character is so indelible and I hope to show now that we're done with the game of thrones monstrosity? Hey all due respect that's great. Okay can better call Saul plays win. Best Drama can you get nominated? A Win can odenkirk Incan. Jonathan Banks finally win play Mike Urban Trout. That's that's my main wish you and I have no control over. And here's my other wish for you as somebody who loves your work. I WanNa see you because this character is you said you nailed it. Cam repressed holds back emotions. I WanNa see you in like a Raunchy. Jut Apple Comedy. I WanNa see you with your hair down. Just acting goofy and silly reminds me. I was Jason Bateman. A great actor right. You're the movie that change up him. Araya rentals normally. He's always a straight man and he's laid back and that will be he got to be the wild guy. That's what I WANNA see. A Ray seahorn wild outrageous comedy. So unlike him Wexler happen. I don't see why not I I came from comedy. Most of my casts did I did come and drama on stage but Once I started doing television was on it was are all comedy. Love doing comedy. I D A blast to Play something totally different in a in a film on Hiatus or after the show ends either way I it it would. There's your kind ring of the. Mvp stuff I gotTa tell you. It's it's my it's my whole it's also the writing. It's the direct being It's it's incredible To be to working on that on that level there'd be challenged and to have Writers directors and Seen Partners. That all believe you can You can throw this ball even further than you thought you. I guess what you do you do when that many people believe in. You cannot wait for the season finale. Which is coming up on Monday. And with me one more season of courses the penultimate siesmic can wait for the other season but in terms of other projects last month for a ray things heard and seen upcoming American horror film and immediately I recognize the names as Jerry Springer broker Robert Pechiney. They did one of my favorite movies. Of course American splendor with the Great Paul Giamati. So Hor move. Yeah I mean it's so good so I'm looking at this cast now it's got you Marie. Abraham deciphered what? Can you tell me about this? I'm assuming the release date like everything these days. We don't know what it's about but horror movie. That's something different Norton whose brilliant you know. James Martin Luth Janesville no. He's the male leading it to I if any of your viewers or listeners or you haven't seen happy Value Happy Happy Happy Valley now James sit down A number of other shows That he's well known for it here in An England but you've got happy. Valley is one of my favorites Crimes I think. Only two seasons and Sara. The lead woman is so phenomenal. And I think there's only maybe like twelve or sixteen episodes total so it's an it's an easy watch during quarantine times but he's he's phenomenal. It's a great. It's it's the we had so much we did that. We shot things hurting seeing which is based on the book when all things to appear and it's on the outside An awesome haunted house like Amityville. Kind of thing like Suspense Horror Film. But it's But it's psychological. It's actually this this whole secondary thing Fanatically of I don't even know what I'm allowed to give away. It's very cool man answer. I'm totally couldn't be more different than Kim. And it's not like a goofy body comedy like you're saying which I would love to do but I play A Hell I don't even want him a lot to say. I look very different and I play a sort of second wave sending a weeding instructor. Very kind of Miriam Schapiro Judy Chicago this thing we had so much fun and and Barbara. Sherrie are the best. The Best I loved working with. I love care you were as far as applied so I'll read the synopsis. We should be okay with the synopsis. I haven't been given any notes yet about what I got to spend fall. And the beginning of winter in Upstate New York which I'd never done before Hudson Valley and Rhinebeck in Pine Plane. Kingston is just gorgeous. An artist relocates. The Hudson Valley begins suspect that her marriage has a sinister darkness. One that rivals her new homes. History you're not GONNA get in trouble for for me saying that because that is sufficiently by big thanks to racy orange his unbelievable you know her from. I'm with her Whitney Veep and of course playing Kim Wax knocking out of the park on better call Saul. I can't think enough for your generosity. Not only your performance which I think is giving so much of pleasure during this uncertain and surreal time. The show is always great but particularly this season. I think it's gone to another level and I think we all appreciate having that escapism that entertainment and I hope everything gets back to normal as soon as possible and I hope you get all the rewards deserve best to you and grandma and the boys and let's get that Raunchy comedy to happen sooner or later all right. I like it. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Jimmy Transportation Saul Good Jimmy Kim Kim Wexler Chuck Beer Kim Wax Tony Dalton Jimmy McGill Ray seahorn Hornell Marshall writer US Graham Larson California Saul Goodman Bob Corker
Better Call Saul | Season 5, Episode 3 Recap: The Guy For This

Post Show Recaps

55:11 min | 11 months ago

Better Call Saul | Season 5, Episode 3 Recap: The Guy For This

"The check this out. I got word that. Who through this crazy party in Beverly Hills with literally all of the biggest reality TV stars? I'm talking about all the Bravo. Lips Candy Barris Barsha Williams. James Kennedy. Jack's Taylor even capped in the League and Kate chastain. Here's the genius part. If you want to find out what happened at the party you have to watch the commercials. Yes I know I'll be tuning in and then signing up for a free trial to get my favorite reality. Tv SHOWS AT HULU DOT COM better call. Saul season five episode. Three the guy for this is over. But we're just getting started here at post show recaps. Hello again everyone Antonio Monteiro I am not the only guy for this though. I am joined as always by Josh Josh. How are you well not as always but as of now as of last week and now and now moving forward at least for the season what's up Biz natch? Please don't call me that. My APP ALITA would not like hearing that word. Yeah Rob Sister. Nino has joined us for if you if you're just joining if you're just tuning in Rochester. Nina was here for the first two episodes. We covered them here. Oppose show recaps we talk about TV and film. And that's what we do. We're GONNA talk about all season of better call Saul but Josh is going to be you and I all season here rob sesame. No when I covered the first four seasons rob a very busy man. You are also a very busy man. But you're very great Graceful man graceful grave gracious. Grateful Yeah I'd Say I am neither of those. I'm not any of the things Chris Right now. Your gracious if you say so if you say so I'm just the man I'm just a man you're the guy for I'm just I'm just the guy for this. I'm the guy who had a mint ICE CREAM. Mint chocolate chip ice cream cone dropped and has since been devoured by a bunch of insects and those are the takes that. I'm going to be dropping for you here on the better call Saul pockets. Yeah that's our cold. Open is just ants the ant because that's not warm open a lukewarm sidewalk. Aunts invested opens a gutter sidewalk aunts open. Yeah this is this is. This is not the best way I guess if you're specifically triggered by insects or this show started on a on a heart note this week. Another podcast is as well but no Antonio. I'm thrilled to be talking. Saw with you all season long. Certainly you and I are no strangers to podcasting about these prestige. Tv shows together. We've got a bunch under our belt at this point to chart forward in the in the breaking bad universe. Just you and me don't tell rob but like I'm I'm excited about well. Although I will Miss Rob's Mike Gherman trout quite a bit. Oh my God. None of us are going to be able to do this. I'm not even going to try. I mean I'm sure I probably will try. But hopefully we'll get rob before the end of the season to weigh in on everything that happens throughout the course of the season. I'd like to. I'd like to do that. I think rob would be open to that at least once more so I don't think Mike is dead Mike is may be in a bad way. We'll certainly talk about in this episode. Mike is rob is not gone. You and I are here and we are going to talk about better. Call saw all season long. We're always open to your feedback on these episodes. Were on the show itself. Better Call Saul. You can email us at B. C. S. at post show RECAPS DOT com. Is that correct Josh. Yes that's correct. Could also always tweet at me. I am at a C. Massaro with two and one are Josh. You're at around Howard which is like a Howard Hamlin but rounders. I write that that is correct. Like Howard Hamlin but rounder. I was GONNA say but like Hank schrader but Howard instead of Hank that's Has Return returned? He's shown up for the first time in the better call university character schrader brow and all is well. Go me into house and like this has been announced. We'RE COMING BACK. But we didn't know when they were gonNA come back and I don't know about you but I was really surprised that they were kind of just dropped in the middle of the episode. Like I would've figured that like Hank would be like an ending of an episode set up a Hank Arc or even at the end of like Like an act break and said it was like it was an entire Hank. Act IT WAS GONNA go me. Pony show is fantastic. Oh Two faced lying pony soldier. Yeah this is great. Yeah it was. It was really good and it was. It was sort of reveal that this show really rebels in when you're doing a prequel show and you're introducing beloved characters. I mean we had what like three or we had a whole season of episode titles leading up to Gus. Fring with the frings back. Titles reveal of season two. We had the note that said. Don't at the end of season two with the car alarm and Mike Stopping From Shooting Hector Salamanca and then we went through that entire long sequence that lasted literally all night. Our Mike went to these very dead drop sites and followed people throughout and follow them around town and ended up with these slow. Pullback to the low spoils or mono sign So we have a show recruits. Jimmy to go Toyota Gus Spring cleaning in the back. The back right. They're very very lake. I would say like casual but calculated in how they bring. Game of thrones characters. Bring creaky bad characters back into the call universe. I felt like that was the very very much in line with what they did with Hank and Gomez return where you see a car pull around you see. It's a New Mexico license plates as government on it. You see someone wearing like a salmon-colored buttoned-down t shirts of Gut with a bit of a little bit of A. But just like crossing the back of the car armed bucks sauntering in your wack. Aw here he is like even before he presses the badge up to Myrna has just it was so so fine. The whole reveal with Hank it just to plug some of my own stuff as you're listening to this checkout. Hr DOT COM. We've got an interview with Dean Norris that I was very happy to do about this. This return to better call saw and I got I got on the phone the Norris and I was like I said I started off with some sort of Jocular Josh. Wigley tone of like Oh my God it means the world to be like Hank is is alive and well and he just like immediately like before saying a single word just like burst out with the Hank horse laugh a jolly guy talking about the return of Hankyu so ecstatic to talk about it. Which is a little surprised because I thought that he put the character to bed. That had been like the last that I had heard of it that he really didn't want to reprise role because he felt like they had told the story. You didn't want to do anything. That was just sort of like spinning the wheels and it's just fan service and his feeling on it. Antonio. Was that like. This isn't fantasy now. Hank is like part of like is an integral part of the salt. Transformation that like Jimmy as saw is getting deeper into the to the To the crystal Meth seen in New Mexico with his first. Brush with Lallo in this episode and hooking up crazy eight with being a criminal informant or should I say Domingo's quite crazy it yet and hank being that guy that this is all part of that search your process that is plugging Jimmy into Saul and charting that progression. So he felt like coming back and being part of that act of evolution for that character was a meaningful reason to return to the show. Did you ask him about his twitter? Use thought out. It wasn't courageous enough to do it. I did think about it. It was on my list but I I just walked in nineteen fans clamoring for it or something to do it. A good aware of the joke or making I think the tweet is still up. Just look up a dean norris gifts. Gif Esser gifts. However you WANNA turn out on twitter. You'll you'll probably get to this at some point but yeah this was a it was the show really loves doing this. Obviously you're talking about a show where we found out like we talked about last week. How crazy it got his name. They love filling in the blanks of these stories. So from the breaking bad universe we did know that Domingo had worked with the DA that he was a criminal informant and that he was somebody specifically that had worked with. Hank schrader that he was hanks informant and so it is about that. Yeah because it's such early breaking bad stuff that it's it all blends together. It's very easy to to miss miss out on that. But that's that's a great puzzle piece that they're plugging in and I listened to their official better call Saul podcast and they go into granular detail about their process from the filters they use uncertain lights to what type of cameras they were using to. How the writer's room works and talking about how they've got these big board of ideas and things that they know from breaking bad that were up. There are things that they essentially essentially established with the character. Like Jimmy. Having an off handed lying I guess saw in breaking bad about how convincing a woman he was Kevin. Costner started a relationship and we actually see that of course in better call Saul by the end of season one. That's a thing where they they knew that that was said in breaking bad and they wanted to find a way to close that loop so there are these things in Domingo once he was put on the show As somebody who was working with Nacho working for this organization It's just always been that you know is going to end up in an informant. So how do we get there and it makes sense that we get there by bringing hank into the mix himself? I think that's a valid point about how it's not. Just on the fan service level it is on a solid goodman becoming Saul Goodman level You're talking about Jimmy McGill as Saul Goodman that we saw last week. He's churning and burning through these clients. He's doing all the things that we know. Salkin men can do. He's on the the Bluetooth had had you know head space. But he's not necessarily working very with. Yeah it's very low. Great exactly where he's GonNa go right. Yeah so it makes sense that we would. We would end up there through his own actions ultimately. Do you WANNA trace. I know you re watched as did I. Can you trace the through line for everyone on exactly how Jimmy I came into contact with Nacho? And how that all played out so so you'll have to help me a little bit but I but my memory of it having watched it really quickly is you know the Jimmy. And nacho stories are very linked in the first season that Jimmy and Nacho brush pats because Jimmy's got like the skater boy twins. They've got the big plan and they're going to. They're going to get the money from. Oh my gosh. What's the what's The cattleman. They'RE GONNA they're gonNA try and get the cattlemen's involved with Jimmy and they're going to scam her. And instead they cross paths with Toco Zap. Alita and Jimmy's able to negotiate. Don't kill the kids just break their legs. It's like I for an eye and to go initially thinks that he's going to that. Means he's GONNA take out there. Which is all good That's where we get the famous business because they call his apple lead to a business. Which is referenced in this episode? The show has a long memory Peter Gould and the team have a long memory as you say for For what they've put on the show very smart structure that they're doing inside the writer's room But NACHO then gets involved in Cattleman of it all because he. He's caught wind of that through the to go interaction. He's going to get busted because Jimmy is going to try and save the cattlemen's from getting killed by Nacho. Or so he thinks is what's going to happen. He then has to work overtime to get Nacho out of the legal jam. And Nacho doesn't like Jimmy at all through any of this and I think that that's their final interaction. I don't think that we've seen them cross pats and season one is that right. I don't think so either. That's my memory. There less interaction and it was ten like they left it on a bad note. And like Nacho then became more you know crossover with the Mike Storyline and then sort his own storyline. He started develop a little bit more in season three and now make sense that they're back as we talked about with with rob last week that we are charting towards some future point where Jimmy has saul is going to be taken out in the middle of the desert by Walter White and Jesse Pink Man. He's GonNa talk about Agnosio in Lilo So for him to Hook back up with those characters and to meet lower for the first time feels like it was an inevitability it definitely does. I think on that note feels like it wasn't inevitability. I think it's important from a moral standpoint to trace the through line here as well you highlighted it. It's it's not that Jimmy. Accidentally Cross pass with Toco and Nacho. Although it was an accident but it was an accident that he rigged. It was an accident that he was doing from a morally corrupt standpoint to try to convince a person to sign with him for a much bigger case he was used putting on a scam and it was a slip and Jimmy Scam and he hired these two guys who he happened to come across who tried to run a scam on him to do this game and it just turned out that they picked the wrong person. Unfortunately but it was his own moral enact inaction or just essentially going morally sideways with to try to get the cattleman account that put him in the crosshairs literally of to go and put this whole situation in motion. He doesn't meet Nacho if it wasn't for his own bad action to begin with and I'm drawing that line because I think that's a huge part of this ice cream situation and it's a huge part of tying this altogether. It's it's Jimmy's actions that he is that. Essentially the chickens are coming home to roost because of his own activities. He's a guy who on the surface on the outside. He's ice cream. He's not very far from being aunt. Ridden covered lying in the street. Really Dirty The the the Jimmy we know in breaking bad. Yeah and it's because of his own actions ultimately and where where he goes. He leaves this kind of a mess. This is something that he's been accused of by characters. Along the way everything he touches turns to Shit you know everything he touches goes to rot and decay and Fester FESTA and no diff no different with the ice cream here and one of the things such a joy about about better call Saul and can sometimes be. Maybe just like a little bit frustrating. When they don't do it well they will stop down and do these montages. That really are just like their sole purpose is to maybe a dual purpose one because it cinematic and cool we could just stop down and talk about how it was gross but was very effectively. Shot and looked amazing. They loved to try new tricks But the other is always just like drilling really deep into the theme and the theme is always relatively stable and the theme of what we're charting with Jimmy. It is that slow motion car wreck you know. We know that just like calamity is coming and like what? We're watching every single piece of the final destination style highway pile up and this is just like another aspect of that. Yeah it's I mean it really is the ice cream in the gutter is the Jimmy Thing. And it isn't just that he does these everything he touches turns this way or that there's decay lurking so close to the surface of much like. I don't know like a Lynch Ian like a blue velvet kind of thing where you pan from the idyllic suburban atmosphere down through the ground and you see the answer right under the surface this is the the the thing that's lurking for all of us knowing that he is to become Saul Goodman in the breaking bad world and what that looks like. This is that that in why it's interesting. Of course we know he's not ultimately a bad guy on a lot of levels like we've seen him throughout sacrifice and put himself out because of Kim and do things that are ultimately against US interests if it if it's turning in hundreds of thousands of dollars of money or it's doing things like that because he cares about Kim Wexler and he wants to help her That has always been a thing that is happening throughout. He gets himself arrested with his brother because he's upset about Mesa Verde and what chuck did To get that client from from what he thought. Kim Rightfully deserved Jimmy goes through this great scam and switches. The numbers ultimately ends with him getting arrested But that's all really for Kim. It's certainly to get one over on chuck but it's really because Chuck's trying to get one over on Kim and Jimmy is part of that. So the thing is he's totally aware of a lot of this. He's not the guy who drops his ice cream in the gutter and that doesn't see the ants it attracts. He gets put back in the same spot and he sees it. He knows that his ice cream. He knows he attracts the ADS. When for example Lalo is recounting the story that you were just talking about right with the twins in the desert and Biz natch and he says. Hey you know what the to go. I know it would've killed those guys. And they walked out of there and Jimmy says well they didn't walk out of there like Jim knows that his actions have consequences even as the fables of Jimmy or the stories of Jimmy. Maybe don't tell the story that way. Jimmy has the humanity still. He is aware of these things He certainly is afraid of IGNASIO and Lallo Even though I you're right in that Nacho was never really happy with Jimmy he came to the Nail Salon and he left a matchbook with his number on it because he was impressed with Jimmy the first time because he was impressed with how Jimmy was actually able to negotiate with a wild man like. Oh that was something that impressed. Nacho and Nacho was that when you know I I think Nachos onto Jimmy something like when you realize who you are. GimMe a call. I can see that you're scumbag if you're not ready to admit it yet when you are we can work together. And so now he doesn't give Jimmy that choice they just pick them up off the street. Yeah I got it before we. I've loved wallows. Interactions with Jimmy in this so fun. Now that Rob's not here I think we can just say I love La la I'm I'm I'm lolling at Lallo. He's cracking me up. He's so dangerous like he's got like this this swagger about him that I think is Super Fun to watch. That's the best moment of the episode for me. Aside from seeing Hank and go me back in action was when when Jimmy realizes that he's not here to be killed. It's like oh I thought I was going to have to swallow a balloon with heroin and allow allows maybe later so Chris. It's both a joke but also so real you know if you go the right way on this maybe later. That's GonNa that's GonNa go and even when when Jimmy trying to like a high ball him on the price and buy his way out of having to do this because of what you say the moral repercussions like there is still some of that here for Jimmy. It starting to fade away Starting to be devoured much like ants. Destroy a Sunday Or an ice cream Sunday but if it was on a Sunday that Sunday is pretty gross in and ruin that he was trying to be like. You can't afford me and little. Did he knows low. Balling himself because loud was happy to to boost the pay and even later when. Jimmy's like yes so Keep Domingo alive. He's my client. I am invested in his continued survival. And Hey if you got other stuff like maybe don't call me. I'm just very very busy. I'm not going to have the time to do this. And just like laughs at him you'll make time And Poor Nacho. Who's like it doesn't matter if you WANNA be in the middle middle of this or not is just the way it is and that's like coming from like a very dark place Nacho? Where he's really caught in between a few worlds. Yeah we'll definitely get into that because that's another key part of this story. Obviously so that Wenatchee does say to Jimmy and the desert after the last lawler. Seen that you're talking about where. Lalo is a madman and just racing his car around the Desert Allen Notch. Says you know it's not about what you want when you're in you're in any saying that to himself as much as Jimmy unfortunately in that scene and I just like I said I'm reminded of that that moment were Nacho does visit Jimmy in the Nail Salon and says to him like when you realize who you are. Give me a call Jimmy. Maybe is going to have to accept who he is. Maybe it's not a matter of realization So much as it's a matter of acceptance like he may not be the Guy Who He thinks he he is. He may be the guy who thinks that when a bunch of Guys from a cartel. Pick you up off the street. They're GONNA kill you. That's not the case. They actually think that you're a scumbag and they can use you and you're right and there are those moments for Jimmy. Throughout if you'll I'm thinking back to season one where Mike needs a similar thing where he needs a shady lawyer. Mike is under suspicion of murder on. This is around the time of the five. Oh episode season and Mike gives Jimmy a call basically knowing that He solicits Jimmy as his lawyer knowing full. Well he can trust Jimmy to spill coffee on a cop so that might conceal the guys notebook and see what he has and Jimmy assessed. Some point like says to Mike at some point throughout this caper. Like how did you know that that I would do that was going to do it? Yeah and Mike. Just kind of looks at them come on. I don't know who he doesn't even need to know the word slipping Jimmy to know. He's slipping exactly so and this is I mean. This is obviously a central part of the show is people's various levels of acceptance of WHO? Jimmy McGill is a chuck called it out from a mile away right and chuck new at his core. What he wasn't chuck was so obsessed and so dedicated to the moral correctness of the law that he never wanted Jimmy anywhere near that. He wanted to keep Jimmy under his thumb because he knew he was a chip with a machine gun as he said when he became a lawyer. Kim I think is at a different level of her acceptance of this and we see that throughout this episode we see for example after the beginning of the episode. Tracker Dogs. Mr Acuras later Jimmy Kimmel Jimmy on the balcony and so happy there's no Mesa Verde tomorrow and Saul Goodman. Just had his best. Jimmy says and Kim doesn't say good for you. She says good Saul. She doesn't want to really accept that they're the same person and it isn't there yet for her and it's just I am. I'm struggling with this to be honest. I'm struggling with having a lot of sympathy for for Kim and this was a really good episode to expose that a little bit. I don't know so. Let's talk about Mr Aker. Kim Kim situation is what that she she is working for these pro bono clients but she still has. The master's voice is Mesa Verde like they're the pay the bills and when rich Schweickart her boss at Schweiker and cokely calls and says Hey Kevin Wachtel from Mesa Verde really wants you out there. You have to drop everything you're doing to drop the good cause and go out there and it's just already played the card where she's like fully ignored that and help. That did not go over. Great so she she. She's like run out of being able to do that. She can't do that right. Yeah so then she goes out there and it doesn't go well with Mr Aker. It doesn't it doesn't end to me. It's so so this is where they are right now and this problem where. Mr Doesn't want to leave the House. And he's like the only person who's holding out. Is this the same plot of land that she and Jimmy did the big ruse a in? I think it was the penultimate of for where they go and they switch out the blueprints and everything like that. Is this the same place? No I don't think he is That was for that was in Lubbock. Maybe but that was specifically for a different style of one particular bank basically Kevin Wachtel had noticed that a particular design of bank was doing really well and getting better foot traffic and he said Hey. Is it too late to go? Change Design of this other proposed bank and page from Mesa Verde said yes it is and she wanted him to back her up and Kim did but then Kim Jimmy of course Did what they did to change it. I don't know how we never saw how Kim was able to explain that to page. By the way that felt like a loose enemy that page might ultimately become. Cognizant of what Kim is doing my td on that but this is a different. This is just like a neighborhood. That they've essentially bought all the properties out of that. They want to build a call center in not a bank specifically and there is the one the one holdout. I do think like where I was going to go with. It is still thematically linked even if it's not like directly linked to where we left him in in the end of season four is. She's been taking on this pro bono load because it makes her feel better about herself tragically even if he gets many of the details wrong. Mr ACKER is not entirely incorrect about his assessment of Kim. Wexler that she is taking on these pro bono cases I think in large part because she's good at it. Sure a but the being good at it means she feels better And she also feels like it takes some of the moral stain off of what she's doing With with you know the big bank work that she is doing for Mesa Verde and you know a brooding people's lives like Mr Acker and doesn't matter that Mr Akers a bit of an ass clown which he absolutely is like know the way that he's talking to Kim very uncall- but like she gets it from the perspective of this man who is being asked to completely change. Dramatically transformed his life with no real say in the matter that he's been like actually ordered to do this in a court of law now at this point and all he's GonNa get or it. Is You know you know fifteen thousand dollars or whatever. It was eighteen thousand dollars. I think you can buy a mansion with the pool. You know he's not gonna be able to do much with that so she's doing good work for certain people but her. The bulk of her income is coming at the expense of human beings is coming there. Is this Karmic toll. That I think is is weighing on her. And especially when she's taking that home with her and all she can do about it to relieve the stress right now is to throw beer bottles into a parking lot alongside Jimmy. She doesn't realize that like she's she's Party to somebody who is also sort of spreading that level of destruction with his own work with with with Jimmy and I think that there's probably like some base level at which she understands that. I think that she knows she's like she's one of those people who's like she's too far into the process that to unplug. You know to to to walk away from what she's doing. Both in her intimate relationship with Jimmy and also in her professional capacity with Mesa Verde would be to completely be like felicity chopping off off her hair in the beginning of season two. It's a radical makeover and it's nothing to do Antonio and I understand why she feels like she can't. I think that there is some level of Stockholm Syndrome to these altars at which she is in service. But I thought that this episode pushed the ball. As far as what we were talking about in the premier recap of imagining the scenario where. Kim Is back in her small town. You know she she goes home. You can see like from these interactions with Mr Aker. That like even when she goes back to him to try and help them pick out a house and like maybe we can do this together. I will take off any day this week and help you move in that. Still not enough that she she may get to a point where even separate from Jimmy or maybe like sped along by Jimmy but maybe not unlike the massive blow out that we're thinking but it could still be of low at we're thinking feels like you know what screw off this. I am going to chop all the hair off and I'm leaving New Mexico and I'm going back home and I'm going to fight the fight for the little people you know and I can imagine that and I think this episode pushed her in that direction. Which is something that you want for her. If you want Kim Wexler to survive better call Saul definitely there. She and Jimmy are both in in many ways Struggling with their of being the guy for this They call in the Hammer. They call and Kim Wexler to talk to Mr Aker. Because she's the one who can get things done and pages so happy when she snaps at the Guy Kim snaps at Mr Acker and Kim says something that she could easily be saying to Jimmy or maybe to herself. You don't get to make up your own rules. Put your big boy pants on face reality. No one's mistreating. You here is what she says to Mr. Acker and page says like you ended it. That's what we needed Kim's the guy for this I mean that's what they did from her and she. Jimmy are at similar place by the end of the episode. Where Jimmy's not happy about being the guy for what he was. The Guy for In Kim is not happy about being the guy that she was she was the guy for so they were very much in that same place throwing beer bottles at their anger and at the world. So you're right to say and I think we talked about this last episode right that you could foresee a circumstance where Kim leaves the story that she leaves behind everything New Mexico. She goes back home. She does fight for the little guy on that. Maybe she does come back into contact with gene at some point in the modern. Or let's say post breaking bad time light on the show. The black and white timeline. I could see it happening and I've always thought it's a possibility so I I do agree that the more the Kim gets into this position where she has not happy with Mesa Verde and her role in the world and the more the Mr Akers of the world. Call her reader on this Completely just everything that is bad about how she feels bad about. What's happening? I think the more likely we are that she could take a powder and get out of town. She is she. Jimmy both are fully cognizant of what the show. I had an episode titled. 'cause sunk costs. They have both quoted the sunk cost fallacy. And the idea that just because you pursued all this thing our pursuit all these things that you have to keep doing it essentially continuing your behavior That Because you previously invested all this time and effort. That's I think a lot of what Kim Wexler does not. Just what Mesa Verde? But of course with Jimmy is well and but there's this other side to it and this is where I have less sympathy as I do think that she has enjoyed The pushback I think for the first time in this episode whether it was sincere or not we actually really got a full accounting of why Kim may be the way that she is with regard to fight the power and we got that with the story that she told to Mr Aker about how. When she was growing up she had moved from house to house and sometimes in the middle of the night own. Any say blue brilliant performance it was. I'd never to be understated. How brilliant What she is doing with Kim is but if it had been Jimmy McGill delivering that monologue. We've seen it wouldn't have been sincere. I actually think there was sincerity. There I think ultimately what ACA realized is that you know you're set. You're being sincere but you're being sincere because you wanna get what you want in the way that you're doing this you're allowing yourself to show vulnerability so that you can get what you want in. That is a form of manipulation. Whether or not you're sincere about how it made you feel or not. It is a form manipulation. And you're trying to build a bond with me so that you can get me to do what you want. I don't Care Lady I don't care who you are and I don't care what you're doing and I think that was really difficult but for Kim. The the motivation has always been questionable. Like I said she was the one who got really excited by the CAPER. They pulled with Huel the Kasahda caper. They pulled with. You'll last season where they started the fake letter writing campaign and the phone calls from Louisiana to get you out of the legal trouble that he was in and she that was the most passionate I've ever seen her be with Jimmy when it worked and then she said let's do it again and that's when she did the Mesa Verde thing so she I think the part where I'm a little more sympathetic for Jimmy as she's looking down on Saul Goodman but she has always enjoyed these capers. I and she has in fact that the legal rules herself on occasion and I just don't know where her real looking down on. Jimmy comes from except for say on some level. I think she's looking down on herself. She's looking down the decision. She's made she's looking down on The the sunk cost That she is pursuing with Jimmy McGill. And she realizes she she should be doing better and she has said about. Me Verde for example. What did I do? I made like a state bank into a regional bank. Big Deer like Oh so great you know so. I get why she's upset about this. It does make me wonder like what's the snap moment like. Where are we headed with her? In terms of leaving town or in terms of Hogan's in terms of someone snapping their fingers in half the population of the better calls disappearing and Eric Lee balanced is all things should be just as blind yes. That's exactly what I mean. The thanos thing that's happening now. What I until. Heisenberg shows up. Anyway. Just look we. We had been wondering what would push Jimmy to become Jimmy. Miguel Saul Goodman to become essentially Salka character. That was the central question of the first few seasons. Were they are now so I think the question now becomes like what happens to Kim? Wexler in this in this time line where Jimmy is Saul Goodman that pushes her out of the story wide as Jimmy Assault Goodman. Why is he different in breaking bad? Yeah he's funny. He's acerbic but he seems like a real scumbag. And where does he get that scumbag? Where does that come from? Because he's such a nice guy and breaking in better call Saul and I got to imagine the stuff with Kim is huge part of the and I don't care about it just as it informs Jimmy. I'm all in on the Kim storyline at this point through her own merit and through the work of Racy Horn. I just. I'm very curious as to what the moment is. It's going to cause her to get sideways with Mesa. Because because the money's really good for Jimmy Right now saul just had his best day ever and like it. Was you know very morally objectionable work that he had to perform. But we know he's going to perform a lot more of it and that money eventually is going to start talking but does that money talk loudly enough if if chemists dylan the picture. I don't know so so it. Would you know it's not like he hasn't kept secrets from her in the past? So it's it's not impossible that he just like drills down so deeply into being saul goodman while being connected to Lala and Nacho while Kim is still in the picture on but I can imagine it's even easier for him to just go all the way in on that. If he's just even more embittered at here he is. Jimmy McGill once again. Never gets to have a good thing and you know he gets so bitter and he takes it also personally and he feels like he's constantly being done wrong by the world and I think that regard actually to what you said about how he sees the ants on the ice cream. I do think that there are times when he doesn't and I do think that there are times where there are certain ways in which he feels like The law is unfair. The law does not work for him. So he's going to make the law work for him like the book. The law is unjust. So he's going to bring justice to the to the to the world and I think we talked about that in with the season. Four finale and how he has a big. You know what I said was a pump up speech but really was very dangerous. Words that he's that he's doling out there and are very very protective in terms of his own experience and I can imagine the realm where Kim is the person who has like the clear the clear eyed moral break. We're just like what I'm doing is not good. What I'm doing does not sit well with me. Certainly like the like questionably. Legal things that we've done. I can't keep doing that. I have to rid myself of that behavior. And that means a break up with Jimmy. A departure about from Albuquerque. Whatever it is you can imagine Jimmy responding to that very very callously very very bitterly the way that he responded to chuck basically abandoning him. So I think that that's something to keep an eye on. I don't think that Jimmy can go all the way in on being Saul Goodman until can take some kind of stand like that. Yeah and it just seems to be coming because she said she got called on the carpet by Mr Acker and it definitely her to the point where she's throwing beer bottles by the end of the episode but like I said there is this aspect of her character that I think he enjoys bending the rules or sees the value in it. So she's going to have to switch is going to have to go off. We're you're right where she's going to draw the line in the sand and not the sand in Mr Akers front yard Because ultimately these characters are having to deal with the consequences of their actions and come to grips with who they are and that's so much of what better call Saul. Is it certainly happening with Mike and in this episode to Josh Mike Does Not like Sydney Opera House and Opera House? Dave third one. Yeah this is this is a very. It's a very deep cut. Ties back to Verners Ziegler in in the last season Mike Verner and the boys cut loose a little bit when they are stressed out and they went out to a bar and I did some dumb shit Verner started telling just some locals about project. He was working on locally and he went into great detail about the architecture and it causes Mike to alternately yanked out the bar but before that he and micro sitting at the bar and they were just swapping stories and verner pointed to that postcard or the Sydney Opera House and he said you know my father designed that he built that he was an architect and he built the Sydney Opera House that was his And so Mike Is Remembering. That is he. Sitting go to another bar might click. There are other bars albuquerque. Not that go to the same place that you have these bad memories referring to. He's trying to atone and he's trying to like look at the I or maybe he can't escape looking at the. I think that there is this piece of like. Oh God what have I done Whether it's mindful were mindless is hard to say you know. I don't think Mike is I. I don't think he could really accuse them of being like the deepest thinker not to say that he's not razor-sharp obviously he is but I think he sees things pretty black and white. I think what he's seeing is like. So what I've done in killing Verner Ziegler's committed to being a horrible person and because I'm a bad person now because I'm officially a bad guy. I have to sit in that. I have to live in that. I don't get to take myself off the hook. I wouldn't let anyone else off the hook on this. I have to sit in being a bad person and I think he was already like you know taking on You know certainly out of love for his granddaughter and his daughter-in-law getting more involved in Keighley's life and everything but I think also because he felt like moral responsibility to do that because of what happened to his son in the role that he felt he played in that here lake. Who Does he have to like? Pay That forward with with verner like to to step out and like comfort anyone associated with that would be to to blow up. Covers would be to make things very dangerous for his family. There's really no and he can confide in for any of this stuff so he has no choice but to drunkenly Wallo or to potentially drunkenly brawl with a bunch of people on the street. So he's like he's getting all of this out of his system in very unhealthy ways though. I'm glad that he got it out of his system the way that he did this week because watching him tool on. That punk was was pretty amazing. These people were coming after him in. Here comes old man. Mike just like knocked. The guy's arm clean out of its socket. Yeah and you're I think you're right about whether it's conscious or unconscious in terms of his own desire to atone. He knows exactly what he's doing by antagonizing these guys like he knows he's GonNa get a fight and he wants to get in a fight and they are not up to it. I mean he obviously is ripped. The guys are out of the socket and says like well anyone else you know like. He's ready to go so it is. It is a is a man who I think is willing to accept his fate. Whatever comes of it. He's not going to even says to them. Like I got a lot more money than twenty dollars. He is willing to say like bring it on. Come at me. I'd love for you to beat the shit out of me But they are not up to the task so he is definitely seeking atonement. But it's on that sunk cost fallacy. Right where he's already far down the road you're right. I think too call this out on last podcast that he gives the speech to price. Daniel wormald about. You're already a criminal. Now it's just a matter of like what kind of criminal you are. Mike has crossed the line and the acceptance of that brings back all the guilt that he already felt about five. Oh and that. He had a little bit in his rear view. Mirror with what he was doing. An Albuquerque in terms of not doing that But he acted out of guilt with regard to Stacey He. Didn't you know he's he's a very smart guy? When it comes to investigation. He knew her story was bullshit about the fact that her house was getting shot up and all this he stayed up all night and he knew there were no gunshots and yet he did not do anything to intercede. He let himself get further down that path where he had to financially support her because he felt guilty about what happened to his son and he still dealing with so much of that. So so much of that. Father and son guilt is their. That's their with Nacho to write like it's there in the story of Nacho in nachos inability to get out or nachos inability ought to be defined by his decisions or not defined by them as the case may be Nacho. It seems like Josh has tried to pull a caper whereas getting his dad out of town by by a business out for other Papa patrol patrol. Yeah yeah he wants to basically come up with a scheme to get his dad. Think that he's got this great offer. And it's not anything attached to Nacho. But Papa knows his son and he knows he knows what's going on. They've got the history. He knows that things have been dangerous in the past and you could smell. What's going on here? And he does not like it at all and guess what Antonio I don't like it either like it either many. There's awful news for Papa I know. Imagine can't imagine he's going to be okay. I think this is bad. He should take the deal of this game wheeler no wheel. He should've taken the briefcase and gotten out of dodge. This is bad from study says mirror me. Los Ojos like look me in the eyes you know. I know that you're full of it. I'm not running. I'm going to stay. And the thing is like key Papa. Mix are really good. Point here That NACHO could he could go like I know Nacho is under like Nacho is in the game and Nacho has a lot of responsibilities but we know Nacho has the passports like Nacho could get out of town there isn't really heat on Nacho. First of all like it's not like he's under federal investigation or it would be hard for him to cross the Border Dylan people. That would come after him are the Lamarcus I gotta believe. They have bigger fish to FRY. Than if Nacho Varga just disappears is never seen or heard from again. I don't think that that's going to be a big problem for him. Why is not show not getting out? That's the question that I have like. Why is he not run? His Dad won't run. I think that's the main reason Nacho won't get out he's Never GonNa skip town and never going to bowl while his dad is still around because he knows if there is going to be any blowback. That's where it would be if he can get his dad out of town. However maybe Nacho can get out and I don't know why not too. It doesn't say that to his Dad. Like Hey if you leave. I can leave and I will leave with you but right now. We're not at a point. Where Nacho I guess wants to take it on the run even though it is something we know. He has contemplated He is just in so deep with with gusts. Never mind never mind where he is of the Salamanca's Of course this episode What we see ultimately is that Nacho. Let's Gus know the plan. Because of course he has to And Gus is very unhappy and gus is basically. Gus is in a position where he has to either decide whether he's GonNa let this happen or not and nachos essentially pleading for his life. You saying I'M GONNA I'M GONNA be Bert if if you don't let these dead drops go they're going to know somebody talked and Lalla. We'll take me off the board so Nachos very difficult position right now and. I don't think it's going to end well for Papa and that's upsetting to me. Knits very upsetting as well. Yeah I'm I'm not looking forward to that at all you'll have to. You may have two podcasts Solo. That week We can or we'll just have to start podcasting as if nothing bad happened to papa and we start living in some sort of alternate better call. Saul time line here on the PODCAST. We can change it to the podcast. Yeah that's what we'll do the podcast. It'd be all papa all the time Papa News. We'll talk about like embroidery and like seat coverings for cars and stuff like that. Yeah good. It's very occupied space. But I don't think there is a car embroidery podcast up. I don't think so not that I can think of I feel like as we're looking towards wrapping up. I feel like we haven't given nearly enough credit to obviously great to have me back on the show but the scene itself was so wonderful because this is something that I I love like the play acting within the world of better calls where Jimmy like slides. The thing over to Domingo's is How are your memorization skills? And you're in the scene and like you're not entirely sure at first like is this an actual disagreement between Jimmy and Domingo. Is this all of us? And then it becomes pretty clear that like they're they're in cahoots together. It definitely does seem That that's that's clear that hank is onto this and that they're cahoots are very exposed. But I I love the Meta of it right. Because they're cahoots are exposed. Hank sniffs out. Hank GOES TO THE DOOR. Bangs on the door says we're out of here and then. I think Jimmy does a thing where he is. This is why he's the guy for this. He pivots and unbeknownst to Domingo. This is not part of the point. I was not really playing his role very well even though he was playing his role. It was very funny where he was saying. I don't WanNa do I WANNA talk. I wave my rights. I don't need a lawyer like it. It just was so obvious but I think he's very scared. When Jimmy says contingent like he looks like what are you talking about and I think that does ultimately take hank by surprise. Jimmy is pivoting in that moment and I think it is Jimmy who was not part of the plan it is his humanity that says I wanted to be protected informant. Otherwise he ends up bleeding out on his mother's front lawn and Jamaica's like what she was like. Don't worry it's not going to happen. So I I do love the Meta the whole senior right the the the song and dance you will the just the back and forth of how that all plays out in. That scene is really fun and it is just. It's very classic Hank for sure just like I'm not here for this. I don't want any part of this bucket up his back. He's a silverback Hank and so to see him behave the way he's behaving It takes Jimmy mcgeough actually pivoting away from that plan For it to actually work. So he's that's the reason he's the guy for this he's he's really quick on his feet and very good at talking his way out of out of problems. Yeah and did you know that Gomez was the guy to eat expired Vanilla frosting? I was GonNa ask you what what's up with Marie. Food safety procedures. Why is this something that Hank Hank being like disgusted by go me eating frosting like slightly expired like sugary frosting very judgmental coming from hang? That feels like that's something that hangs himself would do. It definitely does so. Maybe I'm projecting because I did just like within the last two months crush thing of of chocolate frosting expired. No very fresh very happily. My wife works at a kitchen now. She works in an event space and often gets to bring food home. Issue brought like this big tube of chocolate Ganesh Antonio since last much longer than a week straight to the belly. Josh McCann Nash. Nah Josh the Gosh. That's Gami WanNa mini name Sir. Hanks hanks powder is always going to be funny. And that's a fundamental aspect of the character that it was on the show for the long haul but I I don't know what what the level of commitment to better call. Saul. We're getting from from D Norris and Steven Michael Kazaa moving forward. I think the fact that it was under wraps for as long as it was suggested me that this is a fairly brief turn. I don't expect we're going to get to see them like all season long. We may get to see them throughout the season. But I would expect like a smattering of appearances. Here and there at the best but I I would love to have I love. I love the world in which Hank Schrader as a series regular on on better call saw. I don't see it. I think that we're going to be a special guest star status with D Norris. Anytime we do get him did not special guest star for for de- norse seem Michael because out of just a guest star. What's the deal is special enough for you? I'm not a SAG after guy. I don't know exactly how that works. So I have a feeling that those different credits mean a different level of compensation or some different level of guaranteed base minimum data rate or whatever. It is so that's it has to be and I was wondering like Yeah Special Appearance By. What does that credit mean? Somebody out there can probably tell us. But there are those levels That means something throughout so you don't get you. Don't get that for by accident. You get that Because you have a good agent and because you work your way into this. And so he's a special guest star for now we'll see if this morphs into something more my gas going forward right as. Gus. It seems like by the end of this episode is in is in a place where he's GonNa have to let this dead drop thing happened and he's GonNa lose some larger sum of money to cover this and that's just what's going to happen and he's going to have to respond to that. Does his response necessarily involve the DA? If you'll recall of course when the breaking bad time line Gus fring is a guy who's in very good graces with local law enforcement. That's part of his cover so you you do wonder if he's going to if there's going to be a counter response here that involves him working against the Salamanca. Somehow is going to be this cold war whether diming each other out It remains to be seen but I could see where if that sort of thing doesn't merge then there is some ongoing action between the two parties. That's something that could involve hank right and it could involve Domingo's an ongoing informant. And there are ways that we could see hank in this series more or he could go the way of gale and Lydia and other people from breaking bad who have appeared in the show once or twice and then we know they're available to the extent the story calls for them and I think there's just it's just as likely that we see that with Hank but I don't think we're done with hank for this season anyway. I think we're GONNA see him. A few will for sure for sure for sure. I one of the great pleasures of Better Call Saul. Is You know this is ideally. What any good prequels GonNa do but there are not many good prequels But just this idea that. So many of the people were watching here are all dealing with their torment. Their existential dread Some of them are not some of them are like decently. Happy like Hank Schrader at this point in time. But they're all headed towards the same storm right like they're all headed towards Hurricane Heisenberg and so watch them. Make all of the choices that they're making right now When there are all these opportunities that present themselves along the way trap doors to get out of the lives that they're leading right now and the inevitable decisions that they're making to resist that call to reason right like the resist that all like but it away. Don't do this anymore that by resisting. That they're headed right into the maw of this rogue agent who you can't imagine that better call Saul can get away without bringing walter white literally onto the show at some point relatively soon if not like as a season five cliffhanger than certainly in the final season unless they leave us with the understanding that is like the buzzsaw that they are all headed towards It's just it's just great stuff to watch and I thought that this week bringing hank into the mix just like hell kind of crystallized that for me that haul christly blend in some way shape or form are heading into the buzz saw that crystal meth empire. It's true and the we there are people like Papa in Kim specifically who we are very concerned about as a result of that but we are. We are much further down that road than we have been and it makes sense. Because the end is nigh We know that are better that breaking bad and better call Saul will come together in some way because better call. Saul is ending after season six. And so with the end being nigh It makes sense that we would get speaking of the end being nigh. Josh anything else you wanted to hit before. We wrap this podcast. Good Antonio Check that D- Norris interview if you'd like to read some more D Norris action up on T. H. R. dot com. And if anybody wants to talk to me about the possibility of eminent domain why that wasn't in play from a legal standpoint in this episode. I'm always available to discuss that on twitter at a C- There's there's a very notable eminent domain case. Josh that takes place just a couple years after our timeline here better call Saul. I think that ultimately is why we're not. We're in a position where they did not go under that realm. But there's there's that aspect to talk about if anybody wants to talk about. It asked me about eminent domain. Get eminent domain. Twitter is is lit. I'm sure it is unfortunately somewhere saw. I also do think of this. Podcast as His Eminence is domain. His Eminence being yourself. Oh thank you I appreciate it and I'm just I'm thrilled to be here. Is Your court jester. Doing my best to to make make it sound like A. I know what I'm talking about that across all while if you want to subscribe to our podcast And and and hear all of this chicanery go to post show recaps dot com slash. Bcs itunes I will get you to the direct. Feed for this particular podcast. Of course there's always stuff going on across the Board Josh at Po. Show recap you guys are talking about lost every week down the hatch podcast but there's also star Trek Picard podcast. Josh fear the walking dead. Is that right? What else in the mix it main walking dead right now? Curb your enthusiasm also happening right now. Westworld is just around the Bend News on that front coming your way within the next week or so as it has to because the show comes back on March fifteenth. Maybe you'll just get the news when when a show comes back but we're going to have podcast posted recaps. It's definitely going to be a thing. yeah lots going on curb your enthusiasm walking dead better call. Saul lost down the hatch and Star Trek Picard. What a time to be alive on push what a time to be alive indeed and. Let's hope that time continues for papa for Kim and for everybody else in the universe Thanks everybody for tuning in. We'll be back next week to cover episode for a better call Saul.

Kim Jimmy Saul Jimmy McGill Guy Kim Nacho Varga Saul Goodman Hank Hank Josh Mike Josh Josh Domingo Mesa Verde Kim Wexler Hank schrader Miss Rob Jimmy Scam Jimmy mcgeough Antonio Monteiro chuck Jimmy Right
#48: RHEA SEEHORN | Kim Wexler, COVID Exceptionalism & the LAX Butthole

NICE WORK! A Super Nice Club Podcast

1:34:59 hr | 2 weeks ago

#48: RHEA SEEHORN | Kim Wexler, COVID Exceptionalism & the LAX Butthole

"Welcome the nice work. Podcast of the super nice club where we're just trying to make the world ten percent nicer. I'm your host todd. Brilliant and this week's guest this this week's guest is super nice human. Ray seahorn ray is a stage film and television actor best known for playing the strange mysterious. And funny attorney kim wexler in amc's smash show better call saul she's also appeared in nbc's whitney Franklin and bash on tnt. I'm with her on. Abc and dozens and dozens of other shows and films. she also co stars in collin. Wests soon to be released. Sci fi comedy linoleum to that right. Now your watch list. 'cause it's going to be an awesome movie linoleum got it if you're interested in or engaged in the pursuit of success of of mastery in your craft and your career or or even just your hobby. This will be an hour. Well-spent ray reminds us. That success is in the eye of the beholder. That is even the most talented actors and ray is certainly among the most talented actors working today. They worry that their careers could be cut short at any moment. Just like the rest of us and as you'll learn that fear is a double edged motivator. Real talk about covert exceptionalism. Talked a lot of stuff. Covert exceptionalism animated tv graphic novels. What yellow light means. You think you know. But i bet you don't i bet you know the lax butthole talk about him and of course her wonderful character cam wexler and the upcoming final season of better call saul. What's going to happen to kim. Inquiring minds want to know but before we get into the talk. I'd like to thank you for listening for supporting this podcast for supporting the super nice club for getting behind the the real simple idea of making the world a place because dammit we really need it if you knew to the podcast and the super nice club. You can learn more about us on instagram facebook. We're skipping we're skipping tiktok at at super nice club just type it. In at supernova dot com you can get details about our mission to make the world just ten percent nicer and that's just the start right. That's just that's where we can get quickly pretty sure also with website. They're super nice. Merchandise like shirts hats stickers and other cool stuff to make to make no to help to help us spread the word in your community around the simple idea of making never go. That's where the may comes in of making the world nicer place. If you're nice. Merchandise doesn't help starts nice conversations with strangers. You get your money back no problem you can also text Linoleum you can text linoleum right now to three one zero four two one zero three nine three three one zero four two one zero three nine three to join our super nice club insider community where you'll get invited to events giveaways giveaways and cool stuff not always super nice club. Stuff weird stuff. It's a great super nightclub insider community texts linoleum to that number. And you like this podcast. We pretty please subscribe and pass it on your friends. Posted up on your socials awesome. Thank you all right here. We go turn off everything else to not the rest of the world and drop in too nice work with ray seahorn racy horn. Welcome nice work. I'm honored to have you on. Hi hi thanks for having me course. Hey where are you right now. I'm in my partially converted garage. That is also mike. Kids hang out area but this half is and this is my desk and my art studio and this is where i do most of my self tapes on. Yes that's like an old crap Window unit a c. And it's very clearly a you can still see like the comfort unlike the garage doors still there. This is like that show lifestyles. The rich and famous peaky in there would be under lifestyles of the rich unit and my garage door opener. When did you come out to la. Have you been out here. i just got here. I'm always fascinated by when people got here. And i know why a year ago who a year ago like almost a year ago to the day. No december twenty seventh. 'wow from close. Yeah i always feel like. I just got here but i got here in two thousand and two very weird to me because i always feel like an east coaster and it's not about having Ill will towards los angeles which has an east coaster. Often you come here and you just keep comparing because it's a very different city than any other Had been working and living in washington. Dc for years and years and years in the new york and so you can come here with a real plush like snobbery about what it means to be metropolitan city and i still miss commercial and residential mixed more. I like that feeling. I like having to shut up against all different swats of people in life. I miss public transportation. Also forward that does for the mind. I miss change of seasons now. I sound like. I am bitching about los angeles but i had to put it aside to say you know for every time you're like where's the old history and the old architecture it's like well actually love mid century modern architecture. And it's gordon's out here. Because because of the weather like many of those architects came to seven california. You know to build the case. Study houses. And the i and all of that so once i decided to love. La for what it is. You realize that it's Is really a lovely incredible place to live. I mean i. it's not lost on me. That during quarantine and lockdown in this terrible time. We're going through that i have. I can go walk the beach. I go hik-. I can go take a walk and it's not snowing or raining almost ever you know. So there's there's a lot to be sad for what we get out here. I'm still getting used to that. I know it's december seventy degrees out right now. I was outside doing some vitamin d and take my jacket off. Get more skin exposed. This is amazing but no seasons snowfall. Yeah range because saying i like that. There's no sense of hibernation renewal and you know yes it's an entertainment industry town and the entertainment industry has been sort of youth. Obsessed historically some of that is changing incrementally which is nice but at any rate that it kind of makes me laugh that you do see people here in this not everybody under stereotypes and terrible people in every city. There's also pockets of lovely incredible wonderful people here but yes sometimes you see the stereotypes if you're walking around in certain neighborhoods up the crazy amounts of plastic surgery and the sixty year old dressing like twenty year olds and just people refusing to accept age. And don't get me wrong. Like i'm not saying i would never do anything. Those years may may be coming. But i'm just saying like that that vice grip on like i don't want to just look five years better to look twenty four ever. I keep right that and compare it to the fact it's because there is no honoring of time moving forward here. We're stuck in one season. Three hundred and sixty five days a year. There's no like it's spring something new now. That is a great way to put it. The refresh and renew cycle is sort of missing when you get down south far enough where an odd another trip around the sun and four seasons going by also means another whole year of investigating empathy and and becoming wiser and falling down and getting back up and coming out of tragic circumstances or having beautiful ones and understanding that that will have its own ebb and flow the next year like sometimes. I miss that actually being presented as weather. Well until the last ten years or so. I think that l. a. had seasons they were just television. Seasons right falls right now. It's just all year round so you've lived all over right. You are a navy. Kit moved around a lot. I was not. I was not a navy kid but We were civilian. But my dad worked for naval intelligence and that it instinct are moves correct arizona japan virginia beach norfolk in washington. Dc was of my own accord. I went to george mason university in started becoming a part of the theater scene in dc. Pretty early on and then professionally worked there for twelve or so years And then moved to new york and and then l. a. I like to meet people. I think it's selfishly for my own ongoing self therapy but people who moved around a lot when they were younger. I did ten schools three different high schools. Just mom all over the i know. But overall euro related or no. No my dad was was in the navy but world war two way back when submarines whole different things now. My mom just moved around for for work over. Although i love the experience i feel it had some. It was difficult and school. And you know that kind of stuff. The new kid all the time but would you have rather had it any other way or do you feel like it did something for you positive. I mean i think that's it's impossible to answer with a different road. Have i've got meet somewhere. You know i. I gotta be a going and thinking that i wanted to be an art visual artists in paint for career secretly harboring this intense interest in acting and took an acting class and switched because you had to take an elective in the arts. That was not your major so it was like. I took some dancing antics acting. I was eighteen and georgia's is a great school but it by no means was the these incredible conservatories for acting All of which i coveted and secretly was like. Oh my god we will be such a dream to go there and i would still feeling given a whole given enough time in another live in another and enough money. I with one hundred percent one a master's degree at nyu or yale. or something. if i could get into any of them but that being said does is my long answer of. It's one of those things where i think. Well i have a career and a life and what i have is is has to be result of exactly the choices. I made not that. We are only a summary of our choices but kind of hard to sit around wishing like if i had grown up in one place i wonder i don't know i have anxiety issues so maybe i would Who knows maybe. I would have less anxiety. I definitely have issues with ever feeling like it's okay to completely be settled. But i didn't move as much as you. i think. That's actually more attributed to my vocation of them instant fear of like well 'cause you hear all these stories of likes so and so bought a ferrari when he got a pilot and then it was cancelled. What i'm forever like Camp by extra flops. 'cause you're just going to jinx it and you're going to be fired on monday and be homeless so that's a separate tail but i think that moving around a lot did make me And i'm always getting this wrong word wrong. Am i adaptive or adoptable. If i am quick to bloom where implanted like. I can figure my shut out wherever you wherever i land so that does that make me adaptive or adaptable right. Mean you can adapt me all right. Yeah yeah right. i'm quickly. that's what i would say. And i think that is from moving around. I'm very very curious. And interested in people and places. Wherever wherever i am i went to. I'm not very good at small talk. I have needed. Lee want to find the real people in the room and the real sources of light and humor and then figure out like okay. How do i how do i. How do i succeed here. do i flourish here. How do i function here. And not in a overly like having an agenda everywhere you go but just in a comfort level quickly grounded rooted in the new space. I think that's been that's been the most common answer that i've gotten when i talk with people who moved around a lot Especially if there were military kids because that's just a classic way of moving around a lot people are just like. Yeah i for all the difficulties. I did learn how to get my bearings really quickly among the new in the new city at the new school among the new peer group. Things like that doesn't mean necessarily. We're like those popular kid but no but you can actually end up being quite chameleon which has a lot of pros and cons. You just have to be careful because you can feel sometimes like you. You're not entirely sure of what your real voice. It's because you're so adaptive to like oh. This situation requires this of me. So i'll be this person not. It's not fake. They're just like. I think all of us have so many different sides of ourselves and we speak differently. If we're speaking to our partners verses were in a work environment or whatever but yeah i. I think there can be some drawbacks from being incredibly adaptive. Here's to adaptability which is kind of a segue into just what's going on. We can't can't do a podcast right now. On december whatever it is seventy. I think seventeenth without talking a little bit about cova because i just read it. What did you hear about this thing that we are now. La the global epicenter and two people are dying every hour. Which sounds crazy. I mean is it is. It's fifty people a day but we've had to adapt and readopted this and try to figure out what the the appropriate responses are what we're supposed to be doing. Should we go grocery shopping. She we have one friend over all these kinds of things. What's your are you getting tested all the time. What's your sort of. There's a microbe in the air. And maybe it's on my male maybe to my email You know what's your level of paranoia on the ten for covid. I mean it's just devastating to sit here and think like i'm not going to go visit my my mother and sister back in virginia and that is upsetting to me So i'm trying to figure out like mailing them stuff like a shipping is ridiculous blah blah blah blah blah. But fact that to two families at least are losing loved win right now just in la just here maybe it was just like it's i can't even imagine all of the anxieties in the issues that i'm going through mc families mccain's having to do a zoom learning on none of us. None of us suspect none of us is dying. None of us is not able to go. Hold our grandmother's hand while she has the last couple of minutes. It's just it's it's overwhelming. I am towards the More conservative risk of verse among the people. I know scale but not the most extreme like i i do have two friends that have not left their home this entire time and while one does the grocery shopping. But she's doing the whole thing where you come in through the mud room and all closer taken off and going in the washing machine and you're taking a shower before you touch your child or your husband And they're still clorox encounters and all that pretty your phone in the milwaukee the any friends no backyard ten feet away cocktail and then i've got some people that i know in my life. That are really pushing the boundaries of. What's a backyard safe gathering people. You know it's just. It's so hard because everyone wants to Everyone's thinking they're little thing doesn't count. Look you're being totally totally safe. I was talking to this woman the other day. She's like you know. I mean i literally don't go anywhere except to get a pedicure. I was like i'm sorry. You know or. I had a couple of friends over in my backyard and we ate at a at a table but it was but it was all outdoors and they all super safe families. They're all being really really safe. And i'm thinking yeah but each of them has their thing that not accounting. I mean i just. I just came from s and a war. A mask and i did hand sanitizer. I didn't wear gloves. I think i was. I think it was very safe. But i'm not i didn't have to go. I went to buy christmas cards. I could've done like said like forget it. I'm not going So i think. I'm being pretty safe as far as paranoia level. I don't walk around. And i can be a massive worry work. I don't walk around constantly. Terrified them get a get. It and i don't walk around constantly terrified that my family is going to get i. I wish certain members of my family would be a little safer and that bothers me but that discussion goes nowhere. Everybody believes that they are doing. What's right for them. And i have not found anybody that was really swayed by guilt on. You know. I'll try to point out like well. You know there's a big spike so whatever you were doing. Two months ago. That was enough is currently not enough. I'm doing a little more now than i was two months ago because it was like one in twenty. I'm making this up. But it was something like one in seventeen. People are one in twenty-six people. Now have it and you realize you have to take this seriously like everywhere go. Probably someone has the exceptionalism exceptionalism that you were talking about earlier and i've been guilty of it especially earlier on when it first hit. I feel like we were all way more paranoid. We're leaving our groceries outside for like seventy two hours or what some people you know what i mean all that white now ariel boxes till they were like disintegrating and now it's actually everywhere and we're much less. So the exceptionalism. I ever make you feel like the jerk friends. Want to hang out in your. Because i've had this year fred's wanna hang out and you're like yeah no because cova now and you kind of feel like maybe you're being dark cloud where everybody else's just happy and carefree. Well there's i missed. I missed a friend's fortieth birthday. Were she had a girlfriend who had a really large yard that could handle six people literally being six feet away and i felt bad and it probably was safe. It was knowing got sick. But she was lovely. When i just said like i just. I'm just uncomfortable. Because i tried something like that. I tried to do one little party. Staying and i don't mean party like the ones that are being broken up police i just mean for more than four people and You know was supposed to be outside but then if you need to go the bathroom you go inside and then suddenly some. Whoever went to the bathroom ran into another friend. Now there's some groups that are now hanging inside and this that and the other and i got so. I don't think they were doing anything wrong. I just realized. I need to not give a shit about thinking if i look like a jerk the truth that i realized that night as i'm uncomfortable and these people love me enough. They'll be okay with me saying that. Because unfortunately i kept hiding in corners and like walking away from people who were talking to me like. Oh my god. I tell you guys. I'm just going to refresh my drink. And i would go. They have like a bar. And i would do it to get away from people while cut two hours later. I'm like in a dark corner with a plant now like drunk. Because i've been like so freaked out the time. When i was like okay clearly i need to just come clean with people because i haven't i haven't done it since i don't feel like the jerk. I feel more that. I need to watch my policing of other people up. I'm very quick to like go. Can you believe so. And so did blatty like. I don't know it's it's hard for me that we're not all wanting to just do this together. I had a weird one on the trail last week. When i tried to hike thing got up there. I don't remember where it was temecula. Canyon and was like whoa. There's just way too many people out here. i'm not feeling comfortable. People are having by without masks. We're insured this is. This is a bad idea. Thought it might be a bad idea about it. Yeah so we're walking back. And i know this isn't very super nice club but this is what i struggled with all the time like doing super nice club and not acting nice. It's it's a. It's a daily battle for me. The fact there's the thinking about it and wanting to reflect is working on it working on it wasn't my so this couple is is walking bias. Really close pani heavily and i and i said i seriously i said it really nicely. I said guys might want to think about wear masks because this was both anti said i said it nicely and it and she turned around me and she said elon. Musk what she said elon. Musk yeah and i just said is an idiot question. Mark know well because he is a is a pretty known. I know regulations. No i kind of fully a kobe. Denier he somewhere on that scale. I guess i mean maybe more than i thought if that was her return simple right. You're full of shit. Musk anyway i thought was kind of weird. I think in saying that people worry mass. There was a great article today. Where was it. I can't remember that was talking about like after nine eleven. Can you imagine like groups of people going like. I am not taking my shoes off at the airport that that's a that's taking away my civil rights now. We all decided we all identified a threat. So here's how we're going to solve. Were gonna pull together. It's like oh okay but like no you know. Mass like can't figure out. And i had to fly recently. I was very scared. But i with to do a job. One of my first jobs have since the pandemic actually being on a set. We all getting tested every three days. We were put in a bubble in this hotel and it was very safe with. Nobody gets sick. We're very proud of that tiny tiny crew in Hudson valley the flight. Jeff lewis lovely. Their air filter system is one of the best kept a mask on but they have this incredible. Hep a filter. that's like cleaner than read in my living room and everyone was very nice and very respectful and everyone remember mass and nobody was angry. The airport on the other hand. Lax was like the security line Lax employees are bring absolutely incredible lovely. But they've got these little footprint stickers everywhere right and these signs saying here's what six feet distance looks like. Now i going back to the times of like loving legos. I love to follow directions. I actually feel like empowered creative in free with boundaries. That's who i am so So i'm like loving my little sticker with the feet mark on it and i'm making sure i'm exactly on removing of winning long but as soon as we get to security at putting your stuff in the been. The guy in front of me wasn't done doing has been so even with no. I don't ram up people's butts. I don't think it's a kind nice thing to do. So it waiting. And i do think this person could be a little better organized. But i've had my day. So i'm just like it's fine. We're all we're all gonna be five and the guy behind move up move up move up and he's like breathing on my neck like so close as it sir. I'm just trying to get him some distance in the be great if i had some distance in he goes. That's ridiculous. I don't think that's clearly there's n- there's this is not a conversation to engage in because if that's your response to me like we're not going to get anywhere i ignore him he's continually shoving up against me. I get myself a bit. It comes out the other side. And i had three bins of stuff because it was like a jacket and then the laptop stuff you know has to be separate and then the shoes. They were the tinier. But i'm just trying to wait because because otherwise they are everybody knows you've gotta massive logjam. And then everything goes flying and hits the the right thing away from his he but whole grabs. I'm the wrong person for your podcasts. Google he touches all of myself. He's scoops up all of my stuff and puts like practically tosses it in the extra visitor the basically to make like hurry up and get out of the way. Please touch myself. He's i what did he say. It doesn't matter either of these two are maybe the worst thing you could say to me anyway. And it doesn't they're interchangeable. It was either relax or calm down despite an my fiance grandma always tell me. He's like be careful. You snap back at somebody. Like what did they put it on. Youtube and i have such a long long fuse that i i told her. I said honestly the times. I have said anything to people. I wish they would put on twitter. Because i feel like everyone will be on my side. Yeah set that guy. But instead i'm bitching six weeks later because in real life all i said was a and then moved. He's he's probably listening. You probably just put his plate. I'm sure will will lead with that. And all the marketing is this. You does this describe you were you at. Lax on dollars. At least some people listening though that are like oh. I know that guy. That's probably uncle jim totally. He's always like that gets by the airport. My my my sources at wikileaks wikipedia. Same thing different things wikipedia. Tell me that you are a big fan of absolutely amazing. The arthur so. I just wanna ask you because we'll get into it like what is it that fired you up about her originally before you knew anything about her. Well when i was growing up on. I used to sneak watching tv late at night. Get up and watch. After i was told to go to bed and then i would do anything to earn. Tv time like if you got straight as you could do homework watching tv. Like i would do anything to earn. Tv time i was obsessed with storytelling and that at that time nick. At nite was not children's programming. It was old usually half hour programs. It was mod and Hazel and mary. Tyler moore show. I can't think of all of them. family circus was at the trump. Right the one where they're like. The girl has a doll named be and they have doors to an apartment. What was sam. I was obsessed with these shows. And i think part of it was there was a wire represent even though there was some you know fifty sixty s ideals but mary moore show. I remember 'em rhoda and mod. I know that. Even at that age. I think i was probably twelve or thirteen. I i recognize that this was a different broader representation of women that i was seeing on at that time. Eighties american half hours. You know that has go into that land of women all looking a very particular way and i loved. I probably wasn't old enough to understand. There was the famous abortion episode they did. I don't remember thinking heavily about the politics. I just remember thinking that her timing. I didn't even know the where timing. But the fact that i would start laughing at something that i would start laughing at. Vr reaction the anticipation of what her reaction was gonna be to somebody doing something stupid before she even entered. When you're like. Oh my god my god she's gonna come in on my god and you dying laughing and me realizing that there has to be in. I didn't know enough then to note the craft involved with it. I just knew some people are more believable as this character and some people are so believable and so finely tuned telling a story that that every week i come back i am cumulatively. Getting to know you to the point. Where i'm laughing thinking abstractly about things you might say or react to now. I was fascinated by her. And then you know good Golden girls she's brilliant and every everybody in golden girls is brilliant. By the way. I got work with betty white wants and i thought i was gonna pee. My pants the entire time she sobre. I made her tell me on a mary. Tyler moore story and it was about ted knight which thrilled me because i also a massive ted knight fan. He apparently oh. I'm probably help any white story. I will let betty tell her ted knight story. Okay buddy her. I you know i should have. I have a golden girls. Zip up that i should warn for this instead true story. That hasn't seen story. that totally stands up. There are some shows that don't completely stana. Golden girls does. Taxi is still a god his derek. It's burr real brilliant. We talked a lot about andy kaufman in the last two weeks ago. Podcast on play right. Well what about. Why may blanking on his name. That was later famous for back to the future. The the alcohol the professor. What's his name though. but Yeah when when he tries to get his driver's license and the whole he he's so nervous taking the written test. He asked everyone to go with him to the but they're like we can't help though we can't cheat and it's like john hirsch and mary lou. There i think the whole cast there. But he's a little like dust trying to take. And i mean he's an alcoholic. They fully made this a character and he's whispering over to them What are you supposed to do. It's either a yellow light or a yellow yield side. I forgot what do you what do you do when you when you pull up to a yellow light. And they're like stop it quite. We can't we can't help you. He keeps asking so finally jeter says he goes and he whispers. Slow down other guy answers. What do you the joke goes on. Look it up on youtube. It goes on back and forth maybe fifteen times until he is going is floyd his. Name's jim on the show. For loyd christopher you had to you had to do that stuttering talk for me to get it so yeah. There was one of the first people in mary. Tyler moore. i was like how Madeline kahn for you're just bake. What makes me wonder about this person when they exit their seen. I'm still going. Like i wonder where she went. I wonder what she eats. Wonder what shoes she an. I was like they're making three-dimensional people and my mother was a is a great storyteller. My dad wise a great storyteller. My sister is that might. Just be from being from the south but just those people that can spin a tale and you know and you know as a writer when you can really just build a car and put people in appoint a and drive them to point in there like watching it happen. How did we get here. And those performance were just some of the early ones. That i i cherish. They stood out. They were not the dumb girlfriend. Who's most interesting trait was the do she standing next to. That's that's well put yet. My mom was a big fan process. A kid she would. It was mod and mary. Tyler moore. Before the i remember mary. Tyler moore probably now three or four years old that show. That was her jam and then reading that. That was one of your. Inspirations brought me back all of that and Like you said and not everybody knows but you mentioned the abortion show. She was like a super nice early champion like she would talk about drug use. Menopause zm Women's liberation gay rights. Use a big. lgbtq ally. he's pretty awesome. And we norman lear for all of the writing including all of that in the in the shows. Yeah but it's a bummer. Because when was that when was maud and we're we're pushing forty years on now. Yeah i mean. I said nick at nite was reruns. Any of these shirts why we still have a hard time having adult conversations around any of these things meter or there was an article that it had to be ten years ago. Talking about the rise of great writing and animation could have been fifteen years ago and like brad bird is interview. The people in simpson's interviewed articles about. Why do you think some some. And now i think as many do there's a golden age of clinical golden age of writing going on television and has since changed but this this was honestly fifteen or sixteen years ago it was soon after l. a. And they were talking about. Why all the best writing going going to animation. Now and one of the people it might have been bradford and viewed set. If i pitched all in the family tomorrow i could never get it on the air and less it was animated. And he like that. That's why you can not only get something produced. That is pushing a sin provoking us to think but actually got audience people just preaching to the choir but somebody who might not have thought that way if the person is animated they'll some they sometimes somehow don't feel an affront. I'm not being made fun of my views. Not being made fun of. But oh but oh. I do see why there's something wrong with what netted saying or homer is saying this kind of stuff i think it has changed on as as plots and characters have begun to be much more complex than cereal lies in. There's a lot more access points to them rather than them. Just two dimensional but But yeah at at the time. I just like i was like oh i never thought about that but i mean how long ago was all in the family. And they're like old talking about seventy s. Yeah and that was that was episodic. So it's not like they had all this the seasons to build into these big issues. Everything right they just had a mental liner to yeah. I don't know i don't know what happened. What you're talking about with the animation thing. that's interesting it's kind of reminds me of that. You know that uncanny valley thing you know you get too close. I'm going to butcher it so anybody out there can just laugh. But it's this idea with I think it is when they are doing like. Ai renders of of people. Making them look like when they were doing animation pixar and everything they get really close to looking people that it'd be too close it'd be and people be out and then they had to back it down a little bigger and you know about after my polar or polar express came out poetry that kind of thing. You can beat a realistic before it freaks people out so i'm thinking like the parallel there which is how close you can be to to having people ask these big questions of themselves. I close to home. That looks too much like you. Let's animated instead over simpson. There's also a sort of an extension of something being of fable leising making up that word but it's going to be a word now something because like reading reading animal farm. It's like all right even remember like looney tunes if you watch looney tunes foghorn leghorn lake i had no idea all these like massive political like nixon things. It read hoover going on. You know. you're just watching it as a kid and think it's funny but that's sort of like small story big story that's going on I'm speaking more about. I do think that animation on is is close to almost like anthropomorphized. You know when your wife when when we made animals will sometimes just stop being so defensive. Stop defending our and our ego. Because it couldn't possibly couldn't possibly be talking about me. That's a fox right. No you're thinking of fantastic. Mr fox right now. Yeah yeah which i love. Love love nothing scientific to back this up. But it's just what i'm is just what i'm thinking. Is this interesting to me. The people that i know that have much more conservative. Lines of thinking ideologically than i do back in my hometown will watch the simpsons and laugh their heads off. And i'm sometimes thinking do you know what not like. They're dumb at all. they're not the people i'm talking about. They're just people that have very different political views than i do but they're laughing at the same joke that i'm laughing and i'm thinking are you laughing for the same reason i'm laughing because i don't think you would. So what are you like bridges. It's the same thing as your parents with fog gorlenko. When you're a kid right. Are you laughing at the nixon put down. Yeah isn't about like them. Not getting at they're experiencing in a different way. I'm that maybe just doesn't feel preached to where they can laugh at some things. I don't know it's interesting. I find the same thing with the resurgence of graphic novels over the last ten years. So it's a place where some great great writings happening. Great fiction. writing from. Use mapping artistry. Which i absolutely was connected to the rise up gaming. Oh no i don't know gaming is getting better with the writing. They're actually putting a little budget in hiring decent writers. I i don't game. But i don't at hearing over the shoulders of those who do like. Oh this isn't as bad as it used to be. There's a story to this now. That's that's plausible. And that the coder is not also the guy making the the dialogue. You can kinda out right but the graphic novels are. I've gotten back into him. Part of my steady diet. Did i was not a comic book or novel person growing up but i am interested in what they do with a story on because it's not unlike a short versus feature length film on or a short story versus a link novel and i don't mean that like the story has to necessarily short in a graphic novel but when you're distilling down your writing to the very few phrases that they do. I know some graphic novels have full text in proportion to The images. So i might be getting my terms wrong but the ones that i'm talking about have a more comic book layout where you're you have to have a real economy of language to get this network across and i think that when that well done. It's amazing. I read fun home before it came out on broadway and I i was just astonished. Not not only. Is it. Brilliant and a mate just absolutely amazing it is it is so apparent when you read it that this had to be graphic novel that you're like thank god. She made the choice to do this as a graphic novel The the drawings she's choosing to do and the way she is illustrating it is part of perspective of your narrator. So it isn't a situation where i'm they're just a picture of what she's describing it is. It is an extension of the character. What is drawn how it's drawn wyatt's ron when it's drawn It's a it's a beautiful use of that medium when talked about this story and story is so i. I love reading stories. I love telling stories. I love analyzing stories. Tearing them apart looking at the the craft of story arcs all that kind of stuff word on the street is and i think. Maybe it's our mutual friend. Dana that you really really really love craft the craft of acting. I'm just kind of curious is it. Is it the story that really fired. You up originally is embodying these characters. Where where does it satisfy you sort of most deeply will part of it is what we were talking about As far as like i i recognized the how much i enjoyed a great story and being taken on a journey whether it was sitting around with someone who's just a great tale spinner orator or watching Great television shows everything from escapism. To i was obsessed with going to key theater and the biography in washington. Dc sadly now no longer existing And taking the metro in to go see foreign films to see petra moldova's films and kieslowski's blue white registered blew me away and celebration in breaking breaking the waves and just realizing understanding The in my opinion the incredible benefit to also watch stories. That are hard that are tough and that make me think happiness. I remember could not leave. The movie that are could not get up was just so stunned by like. I don't know what to do. With all the thoughts in my head right now and they're conflicting punching each other and the storytelling to me was some first provoking of abstract logic and comparative reasoning. That was going on where i had to really wrestle with. Like how do we feel about this. Is that okay. Going on this experience in this journey and i i loved having a story told to me and i want to know if i could tell stories and i was painting and i looked at painting as a sort of narrative journey And i was writing a little bit. But i wondered if i could do that when i took that first acting class. The thing that was keeping me from saying like you guys want to try acting. I actually think that's what i wanted to do. There was there was a couple of things one was My adult my. My teenage years were mostly in virginia beach virginia beach and there was a lovely classical theater downtown. I did not go to an understanding. Acting as a craft was not available to man. I apologize to anybody out there in the eighties. In virginia beach was miss. Oh and so who may have been holding an acting class. I didn't know about the whereby. It wasn't a thing i mean. We had a drama club at school. But you know they were kids putting on my fair lady with a white paint in their hair and stuff and it was just not. Nobody was actually talking about the craft. So i'm then watching this. The eighties television shows and american film at the time not seventies american which is my favorite genre but like eighties america thumb. And i'm thinking clearly you need to look like a model and or no famous people that's it. Those are two lights. And i don't know anyone in entertainment not not a soul not anybody who's even like my cousin wants blah blah. When i was in arizona there was a girl on a on the other side of my street whose mom's sister cousin i think was pam. Auber and morgan mini was on at the time and pam. An mideast where the the big giant seventies brown glasses sweep down the sides and she had multiple pairs for the show and gave them one that they could keep on a bookshelf and knee. Much for the kids would stand in line in a yard to be allowed to come in one at a time to touch. Pam dovers sunglasses on. I went over there once. I want you to know the dawson. Virginia beach was not. I didn't even know pam. A pam sunglass spot in virginia beach. Nothing and i also began to not look at all. I didn't and i know a lot of people are sitting. I understand that. I i started with a leg up being white blue eyed blond at that time to get into my career and i don't want anybody out there to think that i don't understand that I had some obstacles completely removed from my path that others who are people of color did not. And i get it. But i at the time when i was like god i'm going to be a professional actor was about forty pounds forty to forty five pounds heavier than i am now and had crewcut jet black hair and there was a lot of body image issues about what people thought i should be allowed to play and what roles i should be allowed to play and turn out to be all great. I came at acting from a character actors point of view and was trained that way and those are the only parts anybody would let me near and it's the best thing that could have ever happened to me. I was never called in for the the the girlfriend. Role i i. They wouldn't let me play the love interest in anything he was the crew cut by properly grew out but by then it was like and then i lost weight just because i was so tired once i started working i was thrilled with it and i guess i should say the magic happened when i took this. First class with lenny rebac and And she uses the The practical handbook which is the atlantic theaters. It's called practical aesthetics. It's a particular methodology technique for breaking down a script breaking down a character and it's a very practical as as is noted in the title approach to acting. It is not a magical touchy feely approach. I've since taking classes. That are in that kind of stuff. And i've got a tool bag of lots of different things but this kind of initial breaking down Of a work horse type of act. I find the magic in the details. i find. it's the same painting. I find the magic in the work and that the sun will be greater than the parts and that you just have to keep you know like re staining sanding down would and refinishing like would piece of furniture to me is religion. It's just meditating on non and taking it step by stop so when somebody was able to show me that getting to a place where you could ever tell a story where they're gonna wonder about your character when they leave the room because you've made such a three dimensional person is not chance it's not lock. It's not magic and it's not your physical appearance it's doing. The work was for some people. I think they wanna be famous. If they want a lot of other glamorous parts of the business and that they probably don't like that part. I was thrilled. That was what let me up was finding out. Oh i could. I could study my way into becoming incrementally better every year. I'll do that because i can control. I don't know if anybody will ever high meet hire me. But i can definitely control that part of it And then i noticed that people frequently been their senior in college and right out of college. Had this big issue with. I was the star in all my college theater. Plays a now higher man seeming to have this. There seemed to be the bridge. That wasn't being built between academic and professional. So i started early on in college asking my acting. Teachers like many of them had acted companies or groups on the weekend. That read lenny did with small beer theater company where they're just reading new plays and it's no money and it's in a basement on i was like what can i be the stage directions. Sure yeah i mean yeah it's not kadima's like i don't care net kind of professional actors. There was a professional director there. I was watching them and learning. And then in dc. You can also on volunteer at many centers. I don't know if you still can't. I volunteered ushered at woolly. Mammoth one of my favorite theaters in one of my greatest accomplishments that i've ever had was becoming. They made me an acting member of their company eventuate. After i did volunteering volunteer running props volunteer running through a box office but i got to watch the same play with the same brilliant cast twenty five nights in a row and watching these tiny little changes in nuances Unlike what's the architecture of the story that has to be there and then how many different ways can you slightly say this light. Oh she said that lime barely different. She decided to do this big intake before she spoke. She didn't do that last night. In like watching the domino effect of that made her seem partner. Reexamined his line reading back and the volleyball and how how much that made it. Totally real it was so populating to watch pacing Alter in the moment and and intention getting altered in the moment and understanding that there were still great. Honor being given to the writing. I mean when i came out and i show and people were saying stuff like i. Just don't think i'd say like that. Can i change this. I was like you would never way right. Are you kidding nearby. You have that same eye for detail in the in the rest of your life or is that just because that's your passion is are. Are you noticing everything like the neighbors. If the neighbors changed their window across the street do you notice it. I'm quite observant. But it's not. I wouldn't say 'cause i'm always asking my script supervisors like. Are you just like a nightmare at home. Do you notice. Someone moved to fork symbol or at a continuity people editors all of that. But i'm very present. And i am that way in my work as well. I think you have to leave your homework at the door. When you get there so that you can be organic and alive and it pains me when you work. It doesn't pay it harder for me. And i feel a little bit sad when you when you work with an actor and i have very few times in my life and it's been a long time since it's happened that you can tell. They pre arranged their performance in their trailer in their car and they are going to do their damn lines the way they plan them no matter what you do they don't care if you cry on your head or whatever that's kinda sad. I'm like well. That's kind of missing the point of a collaborative art form But i i mostly just pray i'm messy. I think it's a good question. Because now i'm thinking i think i'm actually the opposite like i. It has to be pointed out to me that i've accrued a pile of papers as tall as me in a corner. And i don't even like what right because that's not where you're passionate is right but where your passion is. You're fully engaged and mask off at two went off. It's okay you're not supposed to. Multitasking is a myth. Being good we'll tasking myth. Every study shows that multitasking only slows. You down in the long run even in the short run every time you distracted from your main task. Women are better at it than men. But yeah no multitasking. Stay focused on your task so going back to when you decided to engage you said a little while ago about you know i'm going to do this guys. I think he'd become an actor. Was that a singular moment for you did you have. We always try to get this. Did you have a moment or period of time where you had to risk everything to do it. You're gonna leave painting behind or you're going to be a an archaeologist in or just. Was there a moment. He had to take the risk. Think lots of small moments there was being okay with saying it out loud and being okay that some people laughed I i operate better from an underdog position anyway. always have in all areas of my life So i was okay that some people were like that's not gonna work out and some people said exactly that that's not what you're gonna do for olympic. It was like me. I am because i decided. I wanted to be an actor then decided that i'm going to be a professional actor and then i decided this is. I'm gonna make my living. And i said like i might have to have five other jobs to string together how to pay my bills. I hope not. I hope it can make my entire living from it. But i'm definitely going to professionally. Be an actor as my career I set it pretty soon. I just thought that there's no other option now. I have many many day jobs after to piece it together. But i had. I was willing to take that wrestler. My painting teachers on some of them were quite not like Dubious that i would be able to do something else. They were sad. Because i i had some wonderful painting mentors. That truly believed in me in that for that career. That's what i should be doing. And so they were sad. And i had skeptics and i had a couple of i think control remember for me. I i my dad. My dad died. When i was eighteen. And i had his life insurance to split with my sister and that was pretty much all the financial game got from that. Not that i would want any gain if i could trade it for him. But that's what we And so i decided to just pay for my college in cash of like. I don't want any. I don't want any school debt. I constantly hear from people that like that that role in that ruined all of their dreams and they couldn't get out from under this rock forever. And i'm like gotta get rid of it so i had that support system so i think that allows one to take a little bit of risk. I wasn't thinking. I knew that i could support myself with like a little part time. Day job for a couple of years. While i tried to act. And that's that's a that's amazing Gift not live well. I was fine with needing and and you're in. Dc at this point. Right i was. I just would go excited to just be all in one of my first jobs. I auditioned for at that time. Auditions were sometimes additions. That were allowing nonunion. Because i was. I was non-equity at the time would be in the newspaper sometimes and the city paper. Yeah city paper. So i showed up for one and There was no script they said. If you come early you can read the script. So i did and the director was there and he was like there was just i. I guess i was so early. But i don't think a lot of people showed up anyway and he hadn't yet printed outsides. Because it didn't even say the parts you were supposed to show up and the cold rates. And i did and he. He said we'll just start reading the play out loud then read all the parts so i did and i made of different characters for each of them on and we got about halfway through and he said his He said you're really really great I was so excited because it was the first thing that had nothing to do with skull. Not a teacher calling for me on an academic program. Whatever and i was like oh my gosh thank you. Which which role do you think you're interested in and i wasn't looking for size of roy was a committee adele tape piece and i wasn't looking for. Where do i need to be a leader. I need to be the star of it. I dislike if it's a comedy. I i'm a laugh hor- wanted the. What i thought was the funniest that i the character. You could build and still own this french. Cancan singer who is revealed has a horrible frenchaccent. An isn't even french And terrible in ridiculous and it's just It was a very madeline. Kahn role and that's why i wanted. It was very good lazing samples and stuff and so. That's why i wanted it. But i was in the body that i was describing a little while ago and he looked at me was such shock and he said well of course not that role and he was like the i mean the lead male has to be attracted to her and he said it so matter of factly that it hurt a million times more than if he had. You'd think it was. Just i think i wi- teen because i started going to do things that were not affiliated with school early because again i was very fate of that weird bridge where people get out of school and think like the world owes them something like star before that so i i was like And can you do some other role. And i thought that's so rude. It's so awful. I hate you but i want to be in this play and and okay like i can accept that. I don't look like whatever you think is attractive to a man And that is your choice. Another there was another part that i thought well this is funny and he said well. I'm playing that role meeting himself. And i was like. Wow this is not going well and you know what i just don't want to start my professional career this way and feeling this small so i put on my backpack and i was just like please. Don't cry until you get outside. Please don't cry until you get outside. And before i could get to the door. He called me back and he was fine. Fine i mean if you're that commit if you're that committed you can have the professor role and i did and he and i had a. We had a great working relationship. And i did a great job with a raw and i was very. I was very happy. That i at least nineteen you know. Now i probably would've said how dare you about like the the other comment but at nineteen. I was pretty proud of myself. Like i i. I stood up for myself as best. I could at the time the most been really hard. It's probably something that at this point in time. He probably regrets. Saying i've had i've had people in i've been in los angeles auditions where they're like will she had no. We mean like she has. she's an attractive Like yes they're like. I mean like hot hot. You know we may like hot like super hot hot. And i'm like i can't believe i god damn conversation but that's that is not super nice. That's not super nice and selling a lot of men who aren't attracted to this one tiny thing. They're talking about right exactly. That's that's their fantasy world. They're creating how long how long did it take for you. Once you got into. It went through out there too right away that with somebody said what do you do. He said on an actor or did that take a longtime before. He felt comfortable saying that. I said it right from the beginning. Did you like what like working on. Something and i would say auditioning auditioning i would say You know. I did a lot of non union theater community theater. Anything to learn. Like i said assuring for free one of my best friends. Chris walker and i would just read scenes from other plays and work on our shit together on my front porch You can always find a way to act. You can always find a way to be paid for it right away to act so i felt comfortable telling people like him an actor because i mean six and seven days a week i had. I had iraqi. I like that was in my on my porch. I was acting and you know people people made fun of me. And i just. I just didn't care an almost anybody. That was making fun of me. Some day job. They secretly hated. And we're just doing acts on the weekends like you know why you're just. You're just sad that you didn't take the road you want it to take. Yeah i think it's a good piece of advice. When people are deciding that they want to do a career or dumped the career take on a new one is to own it right away just a. I'm a painter. And because i know on but how do you feel about like how do you feel about anybody. Who self publishes a book that they wrote over the weekend is now saying i'm a i'm a writer your professional writer. Do you think that's okay. That's a tough one. And i would have said i mean it's tough. I've had no problem saying that. I'm a writer for years and years. Because i made my living writing. All kinds of things might be a treatment for show here ad copy their whatever over the years i have written. I've written and gotten paid decently written. Haiku for carpets. No kidding no kidding. I think i've written a couple dozen haiku. Fifty thousand dollar carpets. I mean i've written anything. And so i was very comfortable them right or you know what a year ago when i moved to la. It got different. Because i'm in la everybody's writer and when they say you're right i'm like well. It fell funny for the first time. That funny doesn't mean. I don't say that i'm a when people ask me but i'm like all writer i've got this thing called the super nice. You know how. Do i feel about somebody saying that. A writer if they. I think it's okay because i don't know if they self published some whenever there's no great self-published out note. Yeah no no. I did because i don't know if someone just there are people that are especially you know with the internet. There are pe- there is a lot of ways to call yourself an actor and a writer these days where you're like okay. Well i guess it's kind of the same thing is anybody can call their art art. Yeah i think it's on me or you or anyone else to discover what they mean by that great goes down sometimes is not pleasant on the other side either because even if you are a working actor will qualify it as that you get asked like and i'm sure you get this to really written anything i've i've seen or i view have if it's me it'd be like we'll have you been in anything that i that i would know especially as easy for me. I just say 'cause that's true. I don't know you have shown you taste. Let me out. Because you're gonna position where you're listening your resume and then you feel like an ask boob right. I know i didn't see that one. I don't like sitcoms well across the physically. Get there like when you say anything trying to help them. So they don't keep asking they'll be like oh no no no. I meant film that kind of they kind of touches on during my teams the the nice work podcast teams existing thanks team great exhaustive research for this show They found something. You're staying in podcasts. You did with that. That other big podcast. Marc maron guys got into imposter syndrome. And that really really resonated with me. You know this idea that whatever you're doing no matter how good you are at it. You just don't feel comfortable. You feel like you're kind of fake in somebody's gonna find you out and this this has come up quite a few times on this show. Probably because so. Many of the guests are exploring creative careers. And it's something you know you're never really necessarily where you wanna be not quantifiable you exactly right or not regardless of whether someone hires you as a mathematician by yeah so. Somebody's gonna find you out that you're not actually as good as you know that imposter syndrome thing. I don't know it haunts me. It always has even in a new classroom. I always like I'm not one of you. You know that kind of thing. I don't know if that's quite the same thing. But i found it interesting that you guys got into that and also that i think i think mark said that he sort of had around it to like my god of all people who you know the guy who just seems so much like he's only life right right and it's such a great reminder that maybe maybe most of us maybe most of us feel that way at some point. Feel like we're kinda faking it till we make it no matter what we've done in the past life examined in any way and are interested in self reflection on for growth hopefully but occasionally for torture. Then you would have to at some point encounter elements of imposter syndrome because even to the highest degree. There's this existential quality of it. Where i sometimes am hybrid aware of myself outside of the world not like floating out of body experience but just like i said i'd like is that what i like. What if i just been waking up saying night oranges for twenty five years. I don't actually like oranges. Have ever considered this. Like i have these thoughts all the time. And i i when you're acting like you're right when you're in a creative profession on but a freelance a profession and unquantifiable talent of some sort. Yeah you can judge yourself by saying like well. Let's listen people who have hired you todd to teach coach or write something for them Do you think that the majority of these people you would categorize as and mac dead. And i'm sure your answer's going to be. Yes my answer for my stuff would be. Yes but then. I started playing this game in my head of like. Don't possibly think that they're on a ton of talented writers and talented actors. Who didn't get the job right. So should they be sitting at home thinking they suck just because they didn't get the jobs that i got will. No that's not true at all so then it cancels it out. Then my brain the equation is not getting hired means. You're good right. It's like all right okay. So it's not so what what does good and you just just awards. That's the only thing that matters rhyme screwed people out there that think that you should. You should have a shelf full. There's a should very lovely to me. We should add actors and painters and writers to yelp. They just yelp out there. Are you know be amazing. I'm kidding i'm kidding. But there's imposter you guys also touched on and it's funny imposter syndrome and here. I am kind of riffing off. Another podcast with marc. But i adore mark barron. He's great he's fantastic. I just you know. I'm sure you're listening. Mark big love to you. Glenn shall the whole just anyway horrible but you also talked about this fear of waking up and living in a cardboard box right and god damn. That's been a lifelong fear of mine. Like stop working. You know or second what you're doing and you're out you're done you're on the street. I mean mind you. I lived in a car when i was in college. Earn him enough hours at tower records. So that could be kinda where. But it's nice. Yeah yeah. I know right. It's anybody remember how writer. I couldn't get but i worked at hill records. And can you weren't enough of an asshole okay. They only hired households at tower records. That's the truth. Because i think customers expected to me to be demeaned the little bit. That was the whole thing at tower in. It's not as bad. I look back now and kind of go. I've done some cool stuff. I think i'm okay for now. Right right. There were living. You were saying. Oh well that was college. That's why part of me is like. I can never be secure enough. I always still have these flashes of gotta might be homeless time right right right and i do think that most of us are no matter. How much money you have. There's no such thing as a permanence of wealth. You know like. I just watched the. Did you ever watch the imelda marcos documentary. She lost oliver shoes overnight. Senate shutter up my spine right. Anybody can lose it all in a minute and when you really know that and see that happening it's it's a scary thing is that propelled you at all or you think it's more helpful for you. You're sort of fear around that you think it's destructive. I think well what are we talking about. Like a life examined yes. I think that's helpful. I think a healthy level of my Making sure that i understand that. I need to continue to strive to be better and better at what i do. Every single scene. I'm handed and if i'm not being hired than work on something else that will make me a better actor for the day that has been true. All twenty five plus years that i've been working that is concrete thing that is untouchable and so that grounds go like put your head down and do the work. I and i don't think it's good for need to think that it's a fluke. I don't think it's good for me to sink the lottery I don't really like the word luck. I do understand that there is luck. Involved with which opportunities are afforded. There's also some Privilege as we talked about with the way. I look didn't come from didn't come from an entertainment place. Though and was my point. I guess like i think i have to. Why think i have to watch it to not dip too far in the. I don't deserve to be here. 'cause that's where i can go starts. I think it's good to think about those things to understand. There's a million brilliant authors a million brilliant actors that we will never see their work. Maybe not a million but certainly one hundred thousand you know of like i think about that. All the time like books that we read You know there's a poet out there somewhere that we might not ever hear musician and a rapper and we might not get to all of them and There is some luck involved with and just some chance sending luck. It's just chance who was wear one day when they met so and so and and this rapid. But i know there's an old saying and i forget who said it said You know anybody. Opportunity is the door opening. But if you want to be able to stay in the room you better have done your work beforehand cause. Yeah that was me. So because when i start when i shop to set unlike saul and i'm working with people that to my mind the actors the crew and the writers and peter gold invinci- gilligan are the top of the game in my The doesn't agree. And you know. And i'm watching bob odenkirk and i'm watching giancarlo esposito and jonathan banks and tony dalton michael mando and patrick fabian and every single guest star on their you know at bigly junior. The brilliant michael mckean for season seasons like you're learning. You're not learning your idiot like you didn't take and then i that they also thought that they always thought this but i began to let myself absorb the they also believe that i'm value added there. I'm not showing love phoning it in and can't believe like i said that i won the lottery. I'm going home and doing the same amount of work. I did when i had to prove that i could play the professor because because it's the part of the job i love and i want to help tell the story i want. I should be making the scene better. Not just not destroying it right. I should understand tom. Schnauzers He's one of our brilliant writer directors The way he punctuates things and the phrasing and all of these things are keys gifts. And i don't mean to say that the usa do i do does it. Does it fuel me these days. It's fueling me more and it's it's it's late but better late than never to consider with humility that i'm value added to a project It is is more worthwhile. And i have found in the last two years as i've started to talk to people about development and Talking about new stories that and even helping people with other projects and being asked to give notes on scripts and realizing like oh right. I've helped people with scripts for twenty five years like it is respectful to to act like you like you have a right to be at that table to act so like. Oh gosh not me in some ways disrespecting the choice that person made when they hired you right. I remember yet in theater when i first started working on equity theater. Big theater willy. Mammoth eater was very important and might curtain calls were ridiculous. I was very squirmy. And i wouldn't do like a normal bowel. I was kind of like. I know your audience can't see me but it was like shoulders up and kind of like no. Forget elle's dabs that in this business. And i thought i was being true to my sort of embarrassment. Level to have people clap for you and Howard shall what's his one of my favorite theater mentors The the creator Theater he said randy to talk about your curtain call and it was like. I know it's so hard for me. I don't wanna i don't wanna dislike stand out there and be like look at me. Look at me. I thought like. Isn't this an incredible amount of humility. That i have. And he said he goes. The curtain call is not for you and he said it much nicer than i'm saying it now but in my head i heard he said the current call is not for you. The curtain call is for the audience for them to have the grace and the dignity to be able to thank you for performance that they have enjoyed and for going on this journey. Please don't take that away from them. And i was like oh and that was twenty eighteen to twenty years ago and i've just started thinking about it again in the last two years of like have some respect for the people that hired you are working with you and ask for respect for all the people that have hired before that that you have cumulatively become value added in the room in your rotation what i like about all of what you just said is it touches on something that that i believe in this. Simplicity of that your your competences your confidence or the other way around. Your confidence is your competence. But you know to to trust your abilities because you done them right so no matter what you're doing but it's really easy to second. Guess yourself but if you put into work going to hinder your work then you are disrespecting the person that employed you and your disrespecting your scene partner because we're closing yourself off doing some great work if you're gonna wander around like wondering if you should if you should be there vincent. Peter say all the time confident enough to collaborate. Those are the only people they want to hire because they also are like. If you're really good you're open two great ideas from anywhere in the room and you show up prepared and you know your stuff and you don't have an ego about it and i love that. So that's just kind of like do your work and work your ass off and then get there and be open to this being collaborative art form and i used to think that feeling and i'm by no means ever gonna walk around with a massive ego and like bloviating about my brilliant idea but there is definitely a healthy middle. That's different than me just like like we started thinking like i don't know how i got here. I do know how i got here. I do know writer. You put the work in and kind of related to that just in the larger community creative community. I've hired a lot of photographers and things as over the years is a creative director. And if you're creative out there don't cut your rates for people curate if they come to you and say hey i want to hire you to do this project understanding. I used to be there. I still and they're internally but externally to you kind of want like oh. You know sure. I'll do that and i'll i'll give you a deal on my day rate or my hourly. You're on this project. don't do that. Because it just reeks of of a lack of confidence in the quality of what you're gonna stick to your guns stick curates. I think maybe people say yeah. But i wanted to make sure i get the job. You'll get the job if you're good you'll get the job so you did mention saw a minute ago. Better call saul. Tv show. Maybe some of you heard it. Haven't go watch it and for now that you're calling card role can wexler. That's the one that most people know in have seen. I'm sure there will be future characters. That will eclipse kim. But just because she's your biggest this year favourite so far. She is my favorite. But not because it's the biggest Now i've done like there's a lot of comedy in salt that i have to say like i busted comedic roles that i've loved this. It's hard for me to compare roles like i fall in love with each of them individually. Are i play this character. Gail a ups driver in corporate. S- the big slam directed by casey stangl at willy. Mammoth and its couldn't be more opposite from kim wax and is one of my all time favorite roles but there are similarities about both of them. They are completely different. Gail had of extremely limited vocabulary and is constantly mistaken for just an airheaded ditz and then it's revealed not that. She was faking that but that she has an incredible intelligence. In other areas people had not thought about and so. I'm now thinking like on the surface very very different but they are both characters that people second guessed or not aware of the power that they have and i do love that and those are probably two of my favorite characters Kim's journey i have loved to this character from the very very beginning. Even when i knew very little about her other than what i was making up in my head but the writing they supply me with the support system. They supply me with for me to investigate the beaten. We do our scripts word for word to the letter. I don't find limiting. I find it very freeing because they will really let me play with where the beats are their scripts. Don't some extremely clear like oh this is to people arguing and than it actually became Flirtatious and then it went somewhere else and they became despondent. There's are harder to read in a good way. There's a lot of complex humanity in the scenes that you can discover by where you put the pauses on whether or not you say aligned with a smirk or you don't Whether or not. I say it to someone's face or walking away like it's it's It's a tight rope. That's really fun to work on and really fun to play. And they encourage doing fifty different ways which is so much fun as an actor and such a fantastic exercise intellectually but in addition to that another reason that i love her is because i've i've gotten to grow not as an actor for sure but i'm talking just the character i've never gotten to Play six years of someone's life. Do you know what i mean. And and something where they're allowed to change. she keeps evolving. She reacts to what happened and then this happens on everything is cumulative you don't get that very often. It's very new in breaking was one of the first ever that allowed your main characters to actually change and be extremely different where the allies alike. A lot are so. You know whether i've done a two hour play or other series that i've done for that have gone one or two years. I guess franklin and went longer than that. I was recurring on that but the level of evolution and i love my franklin bashkir. That was another one that i absolutely loved but the level of evolution that i'm allowed to explore by nature of the way they write the storytelling. Amc and sony are supporting vincent. Peter doing and the number of years we've been on those things all come together at the. I've been able to keep peeling on your layers on this very strange mysterious. Funny weird isolated. That's just like fascinating to me and that so she's by far my favorite so i know this must come up a lot but for the fans that are out there that listening to get nuggets. Kim has one season ago. What's it like now. Being able to see the shows horizon for you will. I can't i have. I have yet to predict accurately what they were gonna do for new season once. I but you know you have one season left. Are you kind of like. I am not ready to get out of the sandbox. Not one bit. yeah we're gonna shoot thirteen episodes. I don't know how many men i don't know what they're doing with the character. I don't have clue. i know. They will she. She will remain as complex as she always has been to. I mean the good news is were not a show that the network told you you're over before everybody scrambling right a finale. That's not sitting because they are defending because they didn't know we were ending. We they know and they always have known the they didn't dry out a whole bible. They'll tell you that like there's no specific bible that they've known on all episodes from the beginning but they've had advanced knowledge. They themselves vince. Peter chose they wanted to end it at this number of episodes. So they're getting to write the finale that exactly as they want to and amc and sony are so fantastic in in their Allowance of that an and support of that an encouragement of that. So i at least feel three hundred percent confident that my character is in no better hands than do you know what i mean like. Whatever they deem is the best ending for my character. I i will know that it is. I will note that it is and i. I'm looking forward to it. I'm not looking forward to say goodbye to her. But i'm looking forward to see what they right Amc's president sarah barnett. I saw this. Kim cross his quote from her that i just love. She's talking about 'cause you just referenced how much you have faith in. Amc allowing the story to be told best right but she's talking about the whole sort of streaming wars and the the this world just voluminous content that we're in right now right. She said the magic is in what the algorithm can't find what data doesn't touch. We don't think the only working business model is massive global scale. We don't wanna make tons of things just good things. I love that. We don't wanna make tons of things. Just good things. And i'm hoping that hollywood abides by that or that. Amc dominates enough. That they have to. Do you think it's even possible. That's about my pay grade. I know just being wishful. I think i wanted to talk about linoleum a little bit because science fiction comedy drama. That's right up my alley. That's how amazing beautiful film. It so is so great. Yeah when is it. Wednesday coming out when colin west wrote and directed. I hope it comes out soon I'm sure they're gonna do the festival circuit. It's so great. It's a beautiful story. That is very hard to say much about without giving away some beautiful twist and turns in it because there's a there's a time travel element to it. I was just sold a science fiction comedy drama. Okay so real. Quick super nice challenge. Do you have a challenge. You put out to the members of the super nice club. There's something they can do to make the world a little nicer. Maybe the word of the nicer anything. I've been hearing this challenge. Voice different ways not as a challenge but last week there has been. Oh i know what it came from chapelle 's monologue on now and then there was an npr today talking about gratitude and the the the bullying Humans get from giving to someone and that person brought up the same thing that chapell brought up in that monologue which is try doing something great for someone that doesn't deserve it quote unquote deserve it and and probably will not show any gratitude. Wow okay that is a. That's a big challenge to even think of find someone around me that i could even Well when he doesn't deserve it he's talking about like when people want to gauge which in his case he was talking about you know A black person of color but also like you know when some people are like with a homeless person. They're like well. I don't want to give money to the ones that are just gonna use it for drugs and it's part of what they're gonna use it for. Just just just give us give that guy that you really wish wouldn't hang out at the gas station. Give him a sandwich. Just be nice. Just be nice okay. Challenge accepted and if you do it out there and you have an interesting experience. Please message message me. Folks were posted up on the socials would love to see some examples of what y'all came up with and then lastly lastly real quick question for me. Anything i don't edit these you can just fire away. When did you say i wanna be. I wanna be a writer. When were you comfortable with just announcing no professional writer. It took a little while. It did. Because i had to sort of say my my dad was a writer but he was never know he made his living as a writer he was a writer but he was also had a big years of just sort of being this recluse that i never saw that was a writer. But what did he right. We don't know so. I didn't want to be that guy. I didn't want to be like my dad. Who's sort of this bohemian writer. But then right her. After he died i went through all his papers and found that he did right. But i would say that i was. I was in my thirties. Probably and i would often couch it in. I'm a writer photographer. I don't know it was a long time before i've just yama rider. I was in my thirties definitely before that happened. Sometimes i still struggle with it. Depends on. I think pretty much if i've been getting paid lately writing so sometimes it feels more genuine like i said earlier. Moving to la. Oh boy it's a different kind of thing especially now you know i'm forty nine and say on writer and they say we'll have you done anything. Well not necessarily that. Although yes i've written scripts have a pilot scripts that have written. But i'm not. I'm not that writer in behind the scenes of developing stuff for people and helping you know it's a conversation that i just feel really awkward about having sore and i should get over it. You know this is a good reminder to get over it getting over here in la especially with some of the peer group. That i have here. I the impostor syndrome kicks in in a really big way. Yeah it does a good writer people that you actually are posers and shit and thinking in the back of your head like dude. I don't wanna be like that and just to be clear. I'm very good writer. I'm a very good right arm. A very good writer wins. Very good. scriptwriter good anything. Anything at all my ego is not small at all when it comes to my writing. It's more just when you say it like. We talked about earlier the expectation of the ensuing conversation. Just kind of is a little deflating to me. Sometimes and that's not for a lack of pride in my craft. It's just because. I'm not used to la yet. And i love it here for the for the record all right for the record i mean i only know what during covid but from what i've seen of my house it's a it's a great city. Yeah right thank you for being on thank you for all of your time and your wisdom and hopefully inspired some folks out there to get into what it is that they want to be doing or to double down and what you're doing it'd be more more confident about how good you are at it or if you're not what can you do to get better. You yeah yeah put in some work crews actually all right. Thanks a lot look forward to the last. I really look forward to the nolan. I'm going to be honest. The only the one that. I'm the most excited about. I can't wait burke museum. It's so great and you're you're calling us is going to blow you away and jim. Gaskin is brilliant in all right. Well hey have a good one. Thank you tortilla soon and there you have it a super nice conversation with the super nice super super nice way seahorn. She's funny and silly smart and absolutely dedicated to craft which really inspires me to poor even more of myself into mind when i said hopefully you had it mean for you to pour more of yourself into mind. You know what i mean like me and mine you and yours okay. I just want be clear. Because i'm not always clear i'm often. I'm unclear on a murky dude. It's just how goes probably have podcast. It's just satisfying. Isn't it to get better and better at what you do. Most of the because that often requires getting better and smarter and more informed at about many things for example Let's say you're a chef. You're going to learn a lot about what history agriculture even things like how knives are made pretty soon. You're going down a rabbit hole about like feudal japan and ancient forging techniques and. It's just great. Maybe maybe a realtor to be the best. You wanna learn about human psychology. You want to master reading body language. If you really want to master being a realtor these are things you want to know when you dive into something really dive in pretty soon. You find out that. Get this everything is connected. It's amazing this big web of ours. It's really it is. It's amazing. I love it. I love you for listening to this. Podcast for putting up with me and the next week next week we have affiliate chong aka the short yellow gnome. She is a wonder and she's going to be talking to us about her passion. Which is mushrooms all sorts of mushrooms but especially magic mushrooms. We're going to have a great talk if you're into psychedelics and the medical applications of psychedelics that's going to be your podcast a right so until then stay nights stalled past jobs. The you laid this stone.

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Better Call Saul | Season 5 Finale Feedback with Rob Cesternino

Post Show Recaps

1:28:14 hr | 9 months ago

Better Call Saul | Season 5 Finale Feedback with Rob Cesternino

"Better Call Saul season. Five is over. The whole season is over. But we're just getting started here at post show recaps. Hello again. Everyone I Antonio's Zara and I am thrilled. That is thrilled marks at right now. Thrilled to be joined. Not just by Josh Winkler this. That's me Josh is here. It's me but also by the Donald Audio Himself Sister Nino Rob Sister New rob. How're you thank you so much joining us for this feedback? You both for having me. I wanted to come in and be the Lilo to come in here and really mix mix up this dynamic that you guys have such a nice podcasts. Everything's going so great. I'M GONNA come here and bring chaos favorite character rob much under reported last season your biggest long ago less season. I'm excited to talk about human season. Five what a great season. I really appreciated listening to you. It's a joy to get to listen to you to break down a show. It was I. I was not sure it's GONNA be able to keep up in the real time but I didn't WanNa miss the podcast no you I remember. I think it was like episode seven or so we were doing like some pre wiggle room banter over at our AGP in. I'm all caught up. Yeah Whoa it. Was that kind of a season. I think got better calls credit and Antonio and I like the last few weeks have just been like kind of in how good the season's been. I think it was that kind of year. We're like you wanted to like every week like that was for you. You wanted to watch the episode. Did you rob listen to several episodes in a row as a montage so I think I had fallen like three or four episodes behind one point. We did the finale. I think I watched the one after that in real time and then maybe had fallen behind like episodes like three four five. Which in hindsight was kind of like the low point of He's not bad but sort of like the slower part of the season road. Where like loading dock for the mission at that point like some big asset Mike Winter Mexico you know not not a ton of the big things going on and then I just come out of the gate real quick here with just a Mike impression for us. It's been too long. You're telling me Josh. Neither of US can really do it as well. But yeah very excited to come on here and talk about This wild season a season that I think when in a much different direction than I think that we anticipated when we were all together to talk about the premier definitely. We're we're as I said we're so thrilled that you would take the time to join us and talk. And we're so thrilled with the amount of feedback that we got from the listeners who emailed us at BCS post show recaps dot com. Who tweeted at us? Who found ways to get feedback to US smoke signals? Whatever we've really appreciate all the feedback and very excited to get into that but I rap. You're giving some overview thoughts on the season as a whole. I think you're right When we felt the same way about SORTA slower points when we're down to carry and I meeting Mr Acker and stuff like that a throwing bowling balls around. But how did you feel specifically about the episode that they were so heavily touting from the producer's standpoint bag man Though the walk through the desert Vince Gilligan episode. Was that one of your favorites. Yeah it really was and I didn't know anything about it like I wasn't coming in like this is going to be any sort of particular special episode and I actually had heard from somebody who had watched it. I said Oh how is better than they said. It's pretty boring. Pretty Bad S I really like with like no expectations and I was really just blown away that night. I was riveted and it was so exciting. You Know is very reminiscent of the Pine Barrens and I had no idea how it was gonna turn out Pine Barrens. I think is is definitely a good sign post. These were like most of us. Some could use some ketchup packets instead of real blood. But yeah we can use. We could use a lot worse right. We could use an interior in the in the trucks and the tier decorated for. Sure all that stuff instead. What we got was obviously classic. My classic Jimmy Those those long nights Whether sitting around evaluating any other high points of the season for you rob or things that stuck out to you from an episode standpoint from a memorable moment standpoint before we get into some of the specific feedback about characters were. We're going from here. You had nothing that you guys have uncovered a very very very interesting where I think Antonio you were probably I on the podcast. Sort of like a plant. This idea of that Kim really Could be rather than where we came into this season really with a sense of dread Kim's non and breaking bad while she she going to die as possible as possible that there could be a happy ending and the gene time. Line town the road where it does not seem like a happy ending is out there in the cards and it's starting to seem more and more like a kin isn't dead or if she is it's not like she was an innocent victim any of us. Yeah perhaps not. Surprisingly we have a ton of feedback Kim because we leave the season with Kim during the double finger. Point in her is actually turning them into guns which is not what. Jimmy did his cell good so she takes it a step further. And I think you're right. We we didn't necessarily expect it or we had some concerns. Brennan Fitzpatrick Degree Vet Brennan. Fitzpatrick wrote in and asked if there was any part of us that was kind of rooting for that ending for Kim. A little or we shocked and remorseful of quote unquote. Your works just as Jimmy was in that moment. Anybody feel better about Kim. And where she's headed going into the sixties and the final better call Saul. I think I'd feel less like I'm still anxious about something terrible happening to her. Because I love Racy Horn performance and I love Kim. Wexler character but I am now feeling more like the show can can. I have a lot of faith in the show to do whatever the show feels is right for the character right now and. I think that it's such A. It's such a treat that prequel gets to pull this off because I think that this is a really difficult thing for the Prequel as a format when you know the fixed end point. It's going to be hard to build a lot of suspense for a lot of these things and a better call saul being like a rare example of a prequel that's largely working and at the time for much of it. It's because we don't know what's going to happen to Kim and we're concerned about what's going to happen of Kim and it's a bit of a magic trick to me. The premier's called the magic man. And I think there is like a magic trick. That's played on us when you get to the end of the season. And it's really you're now starting to see like the cameras pulling back in that same way that it pulled back on Cameron. Jimmy said better call Solar Saul Goodman last year. That wake no this is this is like the Kim. Wexler breaking bad story as much as it's Jimmy's and that's just very exciting story. Telling me that like I think that the shock value of it even if like Antonio you were starting to track a lot of this stuff I still think that there's this piece of you that's like I don't want to believe it. I want to believe in better for Kim. And so you don't believe that the show is really going to go there and the show starts going there in a way that really works. That gels that makes sense. I think more than anything. I'm rooting for it. Only in the sense of like I think it's really really sharp and rare storytelling and I think that they did a good job. This year primarily with the Kim Mark Rob The great David Lipkin wrote in. David said Kim was talking almost directly to the audience in this episode. She isn't stupid. She isn't a mark that Jimmy has tricked into being with him. She is an innocent in need of saving. She's in the game because she chose to be. I didn't see this twist coming to Joshua's saying but it feels completely earned. The Path sulk admits moral bankruptcy. Finally seems clear. It's not from something terrible happening to Kim. It's from Kim encouraging him to do something terrible. Do you think rob that. We're going to take that next. Step that Saul Goodman really becomes assault. Good when we know not because he feels guilty about something that he did That caused harm to Kim. But because there's something he and Kim did that caused harm. I don't know I don't really get the sense of the saga that we see and breaking bad is a song in that feels bad about something that he feels You know ashamed or trying to right. A wrong definitely seems more broken and I wonder maybe you know. Could this be as a result of a break-up a you know a split from Kim and maybe going in a different direction where maybe she knew. She ends up going off to you. Know have bigger fish to FRY. Maybe she feels like that. He's ultimately like to small time and ends up leaving him and that ends up the state that he's in going into the breaking bad universe. It seems possible. Because you're right. The small-time part really is the part that that is interesting to me that. Jimmy McGill himself. And I've said this on the podcast a few times so he ends up a personal injury lawyer on some level he ends up a guy who is just CD and really has a waiting room full of the worst people that our clients like the place that beetlejuice is in the house waving. Horrible Shrunken head one. I would love to watch but breaking bad. You'll see that in the background and sells waiting room. It's a terrible place to be. It is not the kind of place I think that is full of covert criminal kingpins. He seems to be a very low end. Small-time Guy Spencer. Why wrote in and said he can? Could you spent your pointed out that could make a U-TURN and go down to good choice road perhaps maybe moving back to Nebraska on her own terms and practicing law as their own little version of atticus finch. But Spencer also said Kim could go down the bad choice road and maybe become a hyper competent. Likeable version of Saul Goodman in Albuquerque. Perhaps even becoming a queen pin of sorts as long as Kim is still alive almo in for a potential spinoff series called adjust request. Wax Spencer ends by saying. Do you think there is any way Kim gets out of unscathed and without suffering some sort of Karma. Come UP ON MAN. I think some sort of Karmic come up and says yeah inevitable and I think like even like when you think about what what are the happy endings from breaking bad. So were there any you know. I think is the answer's probably no happy. Ending is like skinny. This what do you think about L. Kapito. It's getting beat. You're my hero Jesse. Yes to the man up you think. Skinny probably has the happiest day of success or at least since Camino Robert Forester is the ultimate winner in the breaking bad universe. Yeah I think that's good content with his life. He feels like he's got some purpose. He's got very very clear lane. Made these guys he's made. He's made a lot of money. He does his business in a very cautious way. He doesn't take risks. That are GONNA get him into trouble. And I don't think that we're GONNA modify that story any further unfortunately given Robert Forces passing. So yeah he probably will Max out as the most winningest character of the two shows but I think like even like Schuyler like she gets to live but she's now having to work overtime like she's working harder than their situation is more destitute than when what was working the car wash and now she has like the stigma of being heisenberg widow. Maybe Marie seems like she is like finding some strength and resolve and breaking bad at the end of it but she's still like estranged with her sister and she's been widowed as well like those are the happy endings so I don't think unless this is a very different show when you think about who the main characters are on better call Saul one of them blows up one of them gets shot in the guts and gets liquefied in a barrel and one of them get sent to Omaha Cinnabar's for the rest of his day and those are the ones we know about sure to think that Kim is going to get any fate that is at least Sunnier than skywards bait. I think at this point is setting yourself up for disappointment. Rob Sunnier. Scholars is that is that is that something I I mean the Kim Wexler Journey. I think is definitely like an interesting what it feels like that. This show started off as Jimmy. Mcgill story but I really feel like that. The eclipse of the Jimmy Storyline with the Kim story line. I think was complete here in season five because I think that this character is probably more akin to Walter White in terms of where she started what her intentions are. And where it might go than Jimmy. Where you know that that the nobleness of purpose. That Kim has where she wants to work with all these people. And you know protect these people who you know. Be a defender for those who have no defense. And she wants to be the she wants to do this. And now she's all saying that the end justifies the means. Which is Walter White? You know this is my family. I have cancer. I have to do all this. I'm going to break the law and I'm doing these things and you know who cares if you know. These people get addicted to drugs or or whatever and again the the ends justify the means and I think that where what we saw breaking bad. You can't do that just a little bit. It's sort of that. Gets you have an ego when it gets harder and harder to walk away and I do feel like that. That's more Kim's trajectory than it ever was for Jimmy. What was Jimmy's nobleness? Of purpose of he just wanted to be with. Kim Right Right. That's really really good. The comparison I think like when you think about like Walter White wants to cook the cleanest purist method town. Kim wants to conduct like the cleanest purist line town. She wants to champion for the people and their mechanisms of doing this stuff. He's doing it for his family. She's doing it for people who deserve her talent who deserve her quality but think about the lives that are being ruined in the in the pursuit of that certainly for Heisenberg eight is a deep deep pit of bodies that he left behind for Kim. There have been some footprints along the way the type of shit she's talking about doing to Howard. Hamlin is is really really dark and that is like her crazy is in the basement crazy in the basement. Rather crazy is a different show. I don't think she's in the basement. Thinks she's elsewhere. The new blue to do math so I think that that's a really good comparison and again speaks to why. I'm so impressed with this season. And the way that it turned a corner in this way of like you just didn't think that you were watching breaking bad for Ken You start you. Were watching the breaking bad origin story for Jimmy and yeah that's still true but like the surprised it's all it's all been a lot of surprise along the way 'cause you keep thinking like I don't want Jimmy to turn into Saul Goodman. I like him. I want better for him. All of this stuff but like you know that. That's his destination and you just. You never really quite think that with Kim but I think now that we know that that's the intention that the show wants to get a little bit darker with this character that the road map is there and as you really astutely put it rob. I like the track of how Heisenberg and she is is very very plain to see now and her moral flexibility. That's the thing is she was seemingly rigid at some point and she didn't even want Jimmy's Halpin digging her way out. You don't save me. I save me. She was really doing it with hard work and it seemed to me like if you look back over the course of better call. Saul there's the switch that flips that causes her to go out on her own. I later going in in house Schweiker Coakley but the the switch that flips is when she secures Mesa Verde and she thinks she has done enough to get the praise that she so richly deserves and Howard Hamlin keeps her out in the fields and does not allow her to come back into the fold. That is a breaking point. Four Kim on on on some level and that breaking point has led her down this path. Now she isn't making these bad choices on bad choice road. She doesn't get into the game right away but she starts dipping her feet into the water I think and she starts feeling on some level like well is the hard work really worth it. Because where does it get you? Maybe you need to get an edge. Maybe you need to work smarter and harder. And maybe you need to do things a little bit differently. And maybe Jimmy McGill is the guy that's showing me this that you can work an edge or you can do these things to get ahead and as long as you keep this moral code. You're fine well now. The moral code starting to go out the window and she's justifying it by saying like I said it's some like steroid version of the trolley problem where instead of letting the trolley diverting it so that only one person is killed instead of however many people are on the tracks. She's pressing the gas down on the trolley to run over that one person and that's not a good deal right like that isn't just moral relativism or her trying to be flexible with that. That is really going all in saying. I'm going to make this choice and I'm going after it and we had an email from Chris from New York who observed that. It isn't just Kim that that this show does that in rob. You're I think you're right to point out the Walter White if at all But Chris also pointed out that Mike is digging himself deeper and following his own choices. I think Mike calls applying the handout. Goss can't see past his own selfish goals and revenge to avoid his eventual ending in breaking bad. So it isn't just that it's with camera Walter. White these comparisons are there. I think just overall this story better call Saul. Breaking bed is about these choices we make and Mike spare choice road speech really encapsulates a lot of that so I think that's a really good observation. Speaking of observations a lot of people were observing. That maybe it wasn't maybe Kim is not going to be vacuum cleaner way. And maybe that's not. The ending is coming for her MATT FROM. Newfoundland wanted to know if it was possible. What we thought about that still at this point. If we thought that was possible pat a from Maryland. Patty observed that maybe just maybe be if if it is gene calling Kim at the beginning of this season. If that's how gene is going to handle this then how could it be that? Kim was vacuum cleaners away. Gene wouldn't know where Kim was so rob. What is your thought? What are your thoughts in this? Do you think that we're going to see him? Being Robert Forster see. I don't go to the red. It's of better. Call Saul or anything like that but has been talked about where to go back to the flash forward that we saw from last season Antonio where that Saul is with his receptionist. Francesca Francesca Right. And in that scene we see him like getting ready to call Robert Forster but he also gives her the number of his lawyer to call. And we had speculated at the time like is this Howard is it Howard. And I'm bill no way this is Howard at this point. Howard's not gonNA help out Jimmy in a tough spot but could could the information that he's giving to. Francesca actually a be Kim Wexler. That's a good question. I think his exact quote was like Something like where. Are you going to be a November twelfth at some time and he basically says I'm going to be there but if nothing she says I'm going to be there but like if I don't get a phone call from you all be gone so I don't know exactly yeah? He gives her some kind of instructions. They had some sort of plan worked out. There was an. I think you remember that we that we talked about whether it was going to involve Howard. It could be. It could be Kim but she knows. Kim. So it's a little weird because she worked as Kim's assistant as well obviously. I don't know I don't know if Kim could be in that role but I think we have plenty of reason to believe that Kim hasn't been disappeared. Josh where we we don't really get into the back and forth about this in the finale. Where do you stand on this now? If you expect that Kim will be vacuum cleaner it away. At some point now you expect the genus reaching out to her or will reach out to her in the future if she somehow involved in this Francesco. What are your thoughts on the? I think I'm I'm on board. Still an was and remain with Howard. Hamlin being the person that Jimmy is referring or maybe Schweickart is also a possibility but like someone from from that level. I think we've gotten enough material on the board that Howard Hamlin is actually a relatively decent guy if flawed in significant ways but as often like trying to look out for people's souls to some extent and I think rich reichert you could say similar stuff for. He seems like he's always been trying to do things above board. Now Jimmy has some measure of a of a relationship with him. I think that would be less satisfying than sending Francesca to Howard Hamlin. Obviously right now Jimmy has very little love for Howard Hamlin but if Kim really tears him apart and if if Jimmy has like if Jimmy looks on Kim's works and despairs the way that maybe Kim Auto of looked at how Jim Jimmy was taking on Chuck back in the day that some measure of empathy whether or not critical. Whether or not like well think about who you were a couple of years ago. I was like well that was then. This is now that he may have a different point of view on Howard. Hamlin so I think that that's probably coming. I think with the direction of the ending. I think Kim getting sucked up by the vacuum cleaner doesn't feel right to me right now. I think that the show really is. It's funny Anthony. We recorded it before. Dan Fienberg interview with Peter. Gould came out on the Hollywood reporter about the finale. And you're the one I think as you and I were chewing on it we were talking about. It's not just you don't save me. I save me. It's you don't ruin me. I ruined me and completely independently. Feinberg bust out the same line with Peter. Gould and I think that that's very much in the air. And I think that like the vacuum Cleaner Guy. I think Robert Forester coming into the mix for the endgame of Kim Story. Dak- find a way to make that work for sure especially if like it's something that's kind of emulating the car wreck and how she walked away from that maybe like could have actually stopped down and change some things up instead of digging deeper into where we are now but my instinct would be no. I don't think that that's that's going to be at peace and just. I don't think that that's where we're going either. Because what could happen it gets. It's so hot for Kim. That she's like I gotta get Outta here. I can't be a part of this like it's not safe for me. I'm leaving here. I'm taking my money. I'm getting out but for the Jimmy can remain in the same city with associates. That there's no mention like how could they be so intertwined and then have there been none of this blow back onto Jimmy where he's able to operate independently and that. Kim is able to just get out of there. Scott free. Yeah it doesn't seem likely that's a really good point because obviously there are. There is one major loose end that made his way through this episode. Perhaps unexpectedly although we we did get an email from Adam Balabagn who said when Mike told SAUL MID EPISODE. That lava was going to die. You just knew he wasn't going to die. Reminded me of the confessional on survivor right after an immunity. Challenge whatever's said. He doesn't usually happen right but LALLO did make it through. Episode is going home tonight. He's gone he's gone. You're done. We're going to split the votes and then unfortunately construction worker comes along and ruined that plan But yeah when Lala made it through the episode I it becomes very clear that this is a major threat at this point. Not just to Papa not just to the chicken man not just to Michael but also to Jimmy and Kim for sure. He has to believe that they were in on this some point. That is the beginning of the weird things that happened that ended with his entire Hacienda. Being shot up so those are the people is going to come after. But he's not just gonNA come after one of them he's not GonNa Leave Saul Scott. Free when you know hidden and and just target Kim. So it doesn't seem as likely that Kim would be gone. It does seem just speaking of that. Francesca call hadn't thought about it much but it does seem like he's telling her to be there at a specific appointed place in time on a specific date to answer a phone call. That is the sort of thing that maybe could be like. Some kind of signal between Kim had been removed. Kim placing a call at the same time to the same place every year so that she can just check in and say. I'm still alive even if it's nothing on the phone even if the phone just rings and you pick it up and you know by virtue of the phone call happening. That things are still good on her end. Maybe she doesn't give vacuum cleaner. Maybe she's just in personal hiding. I don't know but that scene. I think we're going to close the loop on that scene. I would imagine what are the things. Do you guys think we need to close the loop on and I see this up Spencer. Y as wrote in and said do page and Kevin ever find out about Kim's baby formula on the blueprint shenanigans or anything else. She did toward with Mesa Verde. I don't think we're going to find out. What do you guys think about that? I think we're done with Mesa Verde. I don't think that page in Kevin throwing a fit about the milk on the blueprints would be like revisiting Shannon's inhaler in the final season of lost which they did which was in advisable so like that's inadvisable. And I think the writing is smarter than that like. I think. There's one of the things that's great about these shows They move forward with with a knowledge of things from the past but they will only lean on the stuff from the past if they can find a way to really cleverly baked that maybe they could maybe they could break the milk into something something to listen something. Good in the. But I wouldn't bet on it and well. Okay so so Spencer also has lists several of these. Spencer wants to know if we think we will find out who. Francesca was instructed to me with after solid. Left town for Omaha. We're talked about that. Do you guys think we will close the loop on that. I do This is not a season one thing. It's a season four thing and it's also the only time that we ever went flash flash forward into the breaking bad time line in the history of this show and we wondered at the time. I is something. They're GONNA do regularly. It was not. That's why it makes me think that Kim is somehow involved because I feel like that it is some sort of like it's a significant moment and I still don't think we have clarity as to why we saw that my I don't remember what other circumstances happened in that episode of it was sort of like dealing with the theme of that particular episode. But I think just the fact that it was in there I feel like brings like significance to it more so that it was in season four then if it was something that just happened in season one. I definitely agree and it just seems like that was distinct choice that they made. It's interesting to me that they haven't revisited. That not the specific scene but just more scenes from that time. When I don't know why we crossed that Rubicon randomly in the fourth season. And then have not gone back. It does feel like maybe they have a plan Josh what about you? Do you believe we're going to get a loop close on that? That's like infamous Cork Board. They have in the writer's room right like I think that that one is dangling. I think that that one is very much on their awake. GotTa answer that like. It's not quite as like half to answer that as wide as Walter. White have a machine gun in his trunk. It's not quite at that level. Certainly but it is at a level where it's like that was the one breaking bad flash forward. We've got if you take aside all the genes. It's the only one and that's not a nothing deal so that has to be satisfied. I think they are keenly aware of that. What about this one and this is one? We talked about a lot on the podcast. Will we find out in better? Call Saul season six what life defining event happened to us and hair. Shuler in Santiago Chile Raby. What are your theories about Santa? Iago what happened? What happened in Chile? I don't think that that is Michigan. San Diego stays in Santiago. Wanted those loss things where no matter what the answer is. It will not rigor as just the that there was something about that. I don't think that that's going to be something that we need to know to complete the time. Like you know for me that you know just sort of like trying to crystallize crystal meth my thoughts before the podcast of like how I was feeling and I just feel like the the nachos story to me like where is this going. What is the story? They're trying to tell with with Nacho because I physically in terms of like where him is the character that we could see her more on the Walter White Journey of that. She was like completely good egg. You know like positive I'm trying to. I don't know like the chaotic good lawful. Good too chaotic evil. I'm not that Josh helped me out. I'm not a I'm not a law. Good neutral good. There's not sure where she's going. But the Nacho journey that I feel like that while we have gotten to see his family relationship like has the Nacho character really evolves from the season one Nacho and I wonder could he ultimately have a is his story not one from like being on the wrong side to even being more breaking more bad could he potentially be the person who ends up having the reverse of this could could NACHO B. The person who ends up going down good choice road at some point. Is it too late for an interesting? It's interesting we've already seen the passports With he and Papa and we already know that that Amelio is working with the DEA. We learn obviously that that was a ploy that was by design that was not unknown to the people that he worked for just how he stayed alive but there are obviously a multiple possibilities. With Nacho. Lolo is an immediate threat to many of those. I guess it's just a question of what happens with Papa won't leave so papa won't leave. It doesn't matter what passports you have. It doesn't matter what plans are abilities you have. I just think that. That's that's GONNA be. Nacho does not choose to leave the area. I think everything goes badly for him and I think that's that's just what it comes down to for me. I don't know he's clearly not in the Solomon Picture By the time we get to breaking bad Toco is out of jail. Toco is back. The Salamanca's don't really seem to be that great. It seems like us has all the upper hand of the third floor of like you know whatever building their operation like. There's nowhere any morning and delivery. Jay pointed out. The GUS had power over the cousins in breaking bad. I think that's because Gaza is all the stick with the cartel by that point clearly gusts probably got the backing of one Bosa. We're seeing those lines be drawn so I just don't think there's really room for for Nacho in that story. So in my opinion he gets out or or he gets got and I think either are as likely When you talk about no happy endings and we talk about the KARMIC retribution. Not just in a lot of bad things so and just now. He opened the door to the Hacienda. And people who work quote unquote in the game. I guess but who really adjacent died as a result of his actions including an older woman. Who was probably about as innocent as papa here so the KARMIC retribution? For that is probably not going to be that Nacho gets away unscathed. I don't think it ends well. For Nacho high just wonder is is not show. I don't care if you guys have talked about this. A ends up being getting like the Jesse Pink men treatment where in some way he pays for his sins in that we he does lose Papa but because of this journey that he's been on through the first season and we've been Fr- with Nacho the whole way through that I feel like that he is a principal character in the show the story. They're telling this show. Does he ultimately suffer a huge loss but because of that ends up being the person who was able to get off bad choice road? That is another one of those happy endings. Right Jesse. Pink Men Lives Jesse pigment escapes but he also Watches Andrea Di Right. Like it comes at great. He also spends a year or so like the better part of a year in an underground bunker And only being allowed out to to make crystal Meth is Nacho. Who has not gotten far? You would assume from wallow by the time that Lallo has taken down an entire elite squad singlehandedly. Is he going to get thrown into Lao's trunk and driven around in like brought along as a pass like our right? Show me everything that's going on. Push me closer to Gus. Spring like we keep thinking that because we're at the final season we have to like speed things along. Close the gap on the time line to get closer to breaking bad but could we actually just like kind of like tortuously draw out a pretty condensed period of time right now so everybody is really on like overdrive on bad choice road right now that how do they not just immediately smashed into a wall. But I think that like Nacho getting out of this in some way shape or form where like papayas dead but he also goes to Alaska and get to hang out with Jesse Pink men. And that's the sequel to both of these shows. Golden and point out this feedback from the Upright Man and the upright man said the biggest thing to the upright man. That is still on the table from breaking bad is when Mike Tells Jesse that he jesse is not the guy. Mike says you are not the gun robbed you. Do you know this quote because you could probably read it better than I can. But it's not the guy you're not capable of being the guy I had a guy had a guy but now I don't you are not the guy and the upright man goes on to say. I think the guy that my cat has to be Nacho. Mike says to gus that he doesn't believe fear is ineffective motivator. Gus Doesn't listen to Mike in the moment and better call Saul but now in the breaking bedtime line he will say those exact words back to Mike in Regards to Walter White. Something is going to change buses mind so much that he alters the way he manages his subordinates away. Mike keeps going to bat. For Nacho in the way that Nacho demonstrated in the finale he and Mike see eye to eye on who is an acceptable target makes me think they will form a strong working relationship that will impress even gusts of course if Nacho is the guy that doesn't bode well for future hopefully as Papa will be okay though what you guys think after that feedback? Is there a possibility that gus? And NACHO become closer even if it ultimately means that Nacho has to take a leave either chooses to or or is forced to well it could be. What if you know? We've seen Mike Advocate for Nacho with Goss what if Mike ultimately wins out here In which is what keeps like Mike in Gus is working relationship so strong getting into the breaking bad universe where like gusts eventually gives in to to to Mike and Mike is the one that helps Nacho get out maybe post some sort of revenge on papa he he gets gust to agree. Fear is a bad motivator. Let me let me bend your suggestion and let me get this guy out of fear and let me save this this kid and his dad and he gets them out of there and is a gesture like that of not just doing a good thing but also being willing to be an active listener and flexible enough to listen to like not just want Mike for Muscle but to want Mike as a sounding board as somebody who is going to speak to him because he has such a clear code is that is that. Because we've been talking about this Antonio like what's the thing that's GonNa put Mike and Gus closer together? I think like that is not not out of the remote possibility for me. Yeah we got that exact question from transi although Trenton not frame it in this context betrand said that I like an appreciate the craft a better call Saul at the same time. Some of the slow-burn Persians portions of the show frustrate me recent episodes excluded of course transit. The prequel is answering the question. Out of Jimmy. Become the person we met in breaking bad along the way we're being treated to other progressions. Including how did Mike? The ex-cop become Mike? The cleaner in breaking bed. Jimmy story has been complex as it should be and is finally starting to feel earned for me. Mike Story doesn't feel earned. For some reason. Gus appealed to Mike by saying you want revenge which is likely true but does that justify Mike becoming an organiser hitman for someone like Gus fring. Something isn't clicking quite yet to bridge Mike's gap from the show to breaking bad Josh. I know we've talked about that. I think you might be onto something that there's a very good possibility. The trench question in our question about that is answered by something involving Nacho and it has to be something a little more positive right for us for Mike to say you know what. I'm really going to back this guy going to kill for this guy. I'm going to be all in for this guy because he help blank because he helped Varga because he helped vargas dead. That could be a possibility for short. I think so too and his fine. Because we've had so much of not just Nacho on the show but there was a great period of time on on better call Saul where. We weren't getting much in the way of Mike and Jimmy content. But we were getting a ton of Mike and Nacho content so they go back a long way that would be really satisfying for me if Mike if his if his better call. Saul storyline is really hitched to like getting a guy out of the game. That'd be really really nice. I would like that a lot rob. Do you feel like we need more to justify Mike's role in breaking bad compared to where he is now with gus yet because I think that Mike has not really had an arc in breaking bad like as we're approaching the end game. I think that it's important to the creators. Do this show who I think we. All agree are some of the best in the business. What they do that I think especially in terms of a prequel like new. Okay well what is it? Like breaking bad the idea they started with okay it was going to be an arc of taking a guy. Try TO TURN MR chips into scarface. I think that they do want to see like at the start of the show. This character is at point. A and how do we get them to point? B. and Mike has not really had much of a progression from. He's gotten a little bit more involved but he really has not had a story that you can track other than he got more and more caught up in what was going on but I think that Mike at Heart. He's always been about. How can I do? What's right for my family? I WANNA make up for. You know he has these paternal relationships with different people. You know he wants to always like Make up for what went wrong with his son and if he can sort of like have that sorta father son relationship with Nacho in sort of like be able to get Nacho out in a way he was not able to get his son out of what ultimately did him in. I think that that would be an arc for Mike. Erma trout over the course of the series until the agree definitely and I think it would have been a wealth red needle for sure. Because how do you do that when we're talking about the point to point? B. Like in the things we know. We talked earlier in the podcast. Tonight about Kim Wexler and creating a new character and giving that new character arc but in certain of these characters who who need to stay out of the sun and who you can't necessarily completely count on Having the ability to tell the story you WanNa tell with them. Or you're putting poor Jonathan banks through a lot and you're asking them to plot around through the desert. It's not great so maybe there's a better way to pay all that off and you do that by saying okay. We're actually going to tell we. Don't just tell Mike Story in five. Oh which we did. We talked a lot about Mike and five. Oh that we had never had enough better call Saul head and lasted six seasons. We only had one or two seasons that they had originally book from Better Call Saul Five. Oh would have given us a ton more information about Mike than we ever had from breaking bad. But now that we've got the six seasons and we know it's happening. I think it makes a lot more sense to plot out an art like this which is a lot more nuanced and in the bad choice. Road doesn't mean you're always on it. A Mike Own Observations are that sometimes. You think you're off of it. You're doing these other things. Maybe you're headed in one direction. Even if you're taking these side trips. And maybe helping Nacho out will be one of those side trips even though we know Mike ultimately ends up where he ends up. We have thirteen episodes next season rather than the standard ten Spencer. Why said was? Six episodes are was season six tentatively planned for thirteen episodes rather than a standard ten episode order like the First Five seasons received. How great would it be? The final three episodes of better call Saul formed the equivalent of a two hour movie to fully flesh out jeans fate after the taxi driver incident as well as explore his potential post breaking bad relationship with Tim assuming she's still alive instead of jeans. Viewer would get full on gene episode comparable to how Al Qaeda was basically the Jesse Pittman epilogue in a post breaking bad world. Do you want the same treatment? Rob Given for Saul to see extended content for his own epilogue and get this narrative closure. So I'm not sure and You know I enjoyed parts of El Camino but I think I ended up coming down on the camp of. I'm not sure other than like being fan service Like white needed exist. I'm not exactly sure if G is gene. Running from is this. The cartel is running from the police. Like is this going to be some sort of action. Like like Jimmy and Kim on the run one more time I thought that feels like a different show to me than ultimately you know what we spent six seasons learning about here in better call Saul and I get the idea of maybe doing it for some balance on the idea of the book of bad right like because breaking bad had show and then it had the movie sequel. And now we've got the PREQUEL which has become its own thing and should the pre get its own movie sequel and I really hope they resist that. I really think the book bad ought to be breaking bad. They've got El Camino. They've got better call. Saul put that in hardcover and put that on your shelf. And that's good. You WanNa say it. All for the Lolo Sequel Franchise Josh. I know we talked about that. I'm very low but like no I mean yeah but I don't I really don't think so I really don't think so. I don't know I want to know more about rob's relationship with Lilo and how that's changed because you didn't like the law when you were doing that when you were regularly when you were in my seat here opposite Uncle Tonio. You weren't the number one lawless Dan and to be honest It's not easy to remember what I was exactly Australia. But he's very totally jarring and I think that's probably yeah and like you only get him for those two episodes. Here's this new person who's just showing up and I really was like why. Why do I care about Lalla like just here to sort of like what is? He's the new big bad. It just seem very forced when he's coming down from the ceiling tiles like what he's like this superhuman figure here and he just seemed like a a menace. That was out of nowhere and I felt like that this season though they did a lot more with the development of and they manage to outside of the season finale make him extremely menacing without having to say or do much There were several scenes in the course of season. Five where I mean Notably when he comes to Kim and Jimmy's apartment. He doesn't races voice. He doesn't threaten them in any way. Just like a tell me again. Tell me again just that. He was a really really great just in terms of how you know when when he is alone with Saul Goodman so there there's You know basically like Thailand talking to him about going to get the money so I thought he was really really great in the way that they used him this season Especially his scenes with Nacho as well so I thought that they did Much more with him in terms of the quiet in the silence and not having him be as crazy was in season four. He'd be a great survivor player. A very athletic. So you'd win a lot of challenges. Probably but he could psyche out. He'd be funny. He's a lot is very. He does his best thinking at night. Yeah Yeah you could bury your car and some kind of ravine and he would find it. Despite his best efforts he's played by an actor. Literally named Tony so there you go this. I think you're right rob but I mean part of that. Is You have the guy slithering through the ceiling and jumping out and murdering innocent person at the end of season five. You don't have to do much else with that guy to make him a menace after that like it is very clear. Yeah he's A. He's a bad dude in that same episode when Michael Blocks his way out of that parking exit with the gum in the slot. Because Mike knows so much about parking. Lalla just rams his car through the car in front of him that's who this guy is so he? He is not a guy that you have to do much more with once. You've already crossed that bridge with him for sure So they I think they benefited because I agree that was so Ott. But I think they benefited from that for sure By by having that already happened with Lallo so that he is easily more menacing. Now he's Lamonica right so on some level you're worried about all these dudes because we've seen what the cousins have done. We know what hector is like and how horrible the person he is. We've seen the insanity of Toco so anytime Asala Manca shows up somebody with that name shows up. You are just naturally worried about them I think and of course the actor trees on a lot of great stuff. I love your show earlier in the season just like with Jimmy goes out to meet him for the first time or one of the first times driving around in the desert just doing rally laps just flooring his car around in the dirt like that's what he's excited to do. This is a guy who does that for fun in his spare time. That's what love that guy that Guy. I don't know about a spinoff. I know. Obviously we talked about that Some of the other things getting back to what Spencer wrote in about. Do you think we will see how Jimmy I learned of the vacuum cleaner service? Is that an open end that we need an answer to one way that. I think they could do it. And it would be totally acceptable for Jimmy later on in in breaking bad to have knowledge of this in the same way that he knows what gus spring is all about is for Gus and Mike to Vacuum Clean Nacho and so because Jimmy is aware of us in the sense of I know a guy who knows a guy he could be aware of the vacuum cleaner in that same sense of I know a guy who knows a guy and I think that that that would be totally acceptable to me. I think that some sort of loop on the vacuum cleaner guy is probably likely of like. I'm going to send you to somebody who's going. Take care of it but it also might just be like now. This is just crime. Shit you get deep enough into crime shit and you know the vacuum cleaner guy. No I think that's a good point. I think that that could be a good way that Mike advocates for Nacho to the point And then got you know. How do we how do we make them disappear and then? Mike because of his whatever veterinarian underworld that he has a can do I know again. You're right. Yeah exactly to see the Robert Forester. He gives us once he says like like you know he tells he tells. Jimmy that the you know he's he's got a way to do it. Ju- leads to be connected enough that world to be aware that Mike and Mike those a person who can do a thing. We only need to see one half of that phone call which is important if we see it at all right so maybe it'll involve Bill Oakley in some way that's all we can hope for. Bill Oakley will be involved with With vacuum cleaner answer. What about speaking of Comic Relief? What about finding out? How saw indoor met Bill Burr's character Patrick Kuby and how he became part of their crews since he very memorably participates in breaking bad and good. Yeah I don't think we need to know that although often I felt like that things we don't need to know what the criteria they use to decide like how we get things like crazy eights backstory. Good point that's a card on a board. Speaking of cards on a board is the WHO FINISHES BUILDING GUSTS SUPER LAB? And if there's anything else with that is that something that's a card on the board. Are we pretty much? Did the Germans the Germans leaving the that put put a pin on the super? Lebron are we really not going to revisit the Super Lab Again Better Call Saul? I don't think we need to. I think that better call Saul now across. Five seasons has shown that it doesn't need to satisfy all the loose ends from breaking bad in order to be compelling and even though we've got just one final thirteen episodes stretch left like. I really don't think that like I actually do. Think there is definitely a way that this show can be very compelling in the end game without a trace of Walter White or Jesse pink man and if that's the case then they don't have to do anything with the Super Lab. I think it's enough to know that it was something that Gus was interested in. We know that some years are going to pass between where we currently are in better call Saul and where that super lab exists in breaking bad and I think the intention is enough to just assume the creation and invention of the thing. I'm fine I don't need the super lab any further than that. They've got it hollowed out. We've met Gail. I think it's reasonable to believe that Gail in conjunction with Goss is able to you know. Tell them what parts to order and get. Get everything in there. The construction work is often done. We also know that there are delays because of the meeting with gusts and her Schuler with Lydia that the lab can't be finished because gusts is trying to do this in secret. Obviously and not have the Salamanca's find out because this has gusts and around to not having to work with them into not having to work with the cartel in the way that he did so. This is something that has to be kept secret and as far as that goes. We saw that tension with her Schuler. And Lydia about how the lab can't get back to construction because Lolo Salamanca got arrested. Hector Salamanca still around there. There are still problems delaying that. So I think until Goss has fully dealt with Salma problem which I think we will see obviously more of season six. I don't think you can put the lab to rest. The lab is is an afterthought once that's done I think the real gris. There is how Gus Deals at the Salamanca Problem. And how gus gets the upper hand with the Lotto and won both in the cartel and everything there so I think that's the story we're going to tell but David Peak as our David Peaks Mix a interesting observation. David wants to know. Do you guys think will there be any breaking bad scenes in season six of better call. Saul that will be from a different point of view for example gusts reacting to finding out that tobacco is dead. What do you think rob? Are we going to revisit? Breaking bad from different points of view will the GUS fring content or other content Dennis there? I don't know I don't think we need to think that you know better call saw that. I think that really in this season I think has been able to stand on. Its own legs that we don't need to trade on what was going on from the perspective of the breaking bad time line. I think as Josh was saying well we need Walter White or or Jesse and if there's like some fun way to do it that's something that's going on in season one of breaking bad is somehow coinciding with the you know the time line of this great but I really don't think that we need to force it especially because I think there's something so iconic about just go back to Jesse and Walter specifically there's something so iconic about about Cranston and Aaron Paul in those roles that like there was like an uncanny valley quality about seeing them together in El Camino and I think like to jeopardize or like even like you make jokes about how some of these characters look a lot older even though this is a prequel. We'll that's just life folks but I think to have to have walt and Jesse show up and it not look like exactly right. Wake Cranston can't put on a bald cap. It doesn't look right. I mean it looks close. But there's an uncanny valley quality to it like you gotTa Get. Cranston COMMITTED ENOUGH TO SHAVE HIS HEAD. So that would mean like you would need to actively get him onto the show for good meaningful stretched time. Do not just going to go bald for nothing. I think they're not going to do that. I think that they've proven to themselves that like we have compelling ingredients on the table. We've got more than we need in the cabinet. I think that a lot of that energy and a lot of that menace and a lot of that sense of danger that would be suddenly infused into the better call. Saul endgame by the arrival of Heisenberg is here by the transformation of Kim Wexler and by the inclusion in the continued survival. And the very real danger of Lalla Salamanca. I think they've got that stuff. I think they've got the energy with the ingredients. They already have. It does seem like that I I still think there is at least a possibility taking away. We don't need while Jesse and I think personally that they could still do breaking bad scenes without doing without doing that. I think gosh reacting to finding out to goes dead is a good example. It's also possible that will see the back end of Gus with the twins or some other elements gusts story. That don't involve Walter it out because gus is not a character. In his first three seasons breaking bad he becomes a character obviously in the third season but he is not especially until the end of the second season right. I guess when the deal maybe goes south and then the money's not going to happen. He's not there in those first couple seasons. I was a little shorter but I think we could see some crossover there. I do think some of that depends on what we're doing with Jimmy. Are we into Jimmy and Kim in breaking bad in some way that the salt goodman that we meet in season two episode? Seven if we get to that point. If we're walking right up to that point before Walter Jesse. Come into that story. I think we could try it on some of that territory. I don't think we could go much further than that because then it is too much of the Walton Jesse story but I think we could fill in the blanks of. What's all and what Gus we're up to? Before they came into the breaking bad story with stuff from better call Saul having three. Extra episodes is interesting from a lot of perspectives. We talked earlier on this podcast about whether we would want to see an El Camino like episode three episodes stretch. Were just doing gene. What about though one of the things I think people aren't realizing maybe as they're watching depending on how they're watching is a better call. Saul has used as far as I know from the beginning of the series the same ten credit sequence scenes. We have the falling Coffee Cup. We have cell phones in a drawer. We have a urinal with a better call. Saul matches. We've unfortunate incident with Iraq. Unaided TIE which I don't want to talk about all these familiar better call. Saul opens are only ten of them. How do you stretch that out to three extra episodes in does it give them the latitude to do something a little differently? In terms of how they open their episodes in how they structure their episodes in general. Yeah I think they could do gene epilogue. I think you could do as effectively. You can do the El Camino idea of like there's a movie sequel by doing like the final three episodes of better call. Saul because you have to satisfy Jimmy's story. In a way that is creatively fulfilling at least and also do the same thing for people like Gus and Mike who's actual deaths are going to occur on a totally different show unless we're just GONNA get a reverse angle on that and that doesn't feel good to me but like if you if you cut it at a certain point in episode ten of season six and now the final three episodes about Gene Kim Wexler Deep Bring Howard Hamlin back into it that that's all hanging there for me. I think you could now have a show that looks and feels a little bit different in. Its in its stretch and is like an expanded thing and it's something that we've been waiting a long time to see that. I think the payoff on. That would be really worthwhile also. I hope they don't do that. I hope that they continue to pay off season the show. We've been watching for five seasons and you know complete. These arcs as much as they can. In the time line that they are in and then you know maybe like have like a story beats over the course of the season that you want to spend in the in the gene timeline. But I just think that it's it's going to be such a hard thing to execute. Well I think that the more time you spend in that universe the I feel like there's GonNa be like diminishing returns where we have like a couple of scenes in that time line. I think that that's good. That could go a longer way to answering questions where we can fill in a little bit more of the gaps as opposed to just like spending like two whole episodes there and then say like in some ways we might have to rush it because we're jamming more in there. If that makes it makes sense it makes sense I there. There are some natural things to connect and one of them. We've talked about a lot. Which is that scene from. Season two episode seven with Saul being taken captive by Walton Jesse. Taken out to the desert. When he doesn't know who they are. He exclaims if you'd think Castro wrote in Said Hi Josh Antonio and Rob. I know that this has been talked to death at this point. We're not dead yet. You know but I re watched the scene in breaking bad with Walt Jesse and Solomon Desert after the finale last night and it got me thinking saw specifically says to them. Lolo didn't send you and it wasn't me. It was Agnosio. This suggests to me journal at some point during season six a better call Saul Jimmy and or Mike will learn about what went down at. Lola's house in that lawler survived whether or not Jimmy has lalla will ever interact again. I'm not so sure. But the mere idea of Wallo still being out there somewhere would be enough to terrify saul forever and always looking over his shoulder for Lallo as you've discussed before look definitely dead during breaking bad and Saul was unaware of this fact when he encounters walt. And Jesse or perhaps as you suggested during the recap episode. Lilo could be alive and in hiding during breaking bad for some reason but I'm not sure what narrative purpose this serves other than setting up a potential spin off or the character. Anyway I know none of this is necessarily new information but I wanted to get my thoughts out while I had them so. I have not necessarily been reading the scene that way. That's all is basically saying NACHO did it. It wasn't a and he's being concerned that specifically Lolo this. I cast different light to me on what we might see out of the story here in season. Six in how it's told Jimmy does seem like probably he finds out that Nacho is the one who set up and that is not news to him at that point because he didn't know that it was at this point in season five so he's going to seemingly learn this ad ceases always right about this one thing that that occurs to me is that Lolo he the easy money and we've been talking about it for a while now is that like Lalas Not GonNa make it out of this show alive. We thought it would be this season alive and then we talked about well. What if they're keeping them alive for the sequel? They're keeping them alive for the gene scenes. You know what? If what if Lalo is somehow a participant in that in like a better call Saul epilogue because rob? I think he did a. I think you're you're right to observe that it's not exactly clear who gene is most concerned about being on the run from it seemed to me at certain points that it was probably the cops and the DA When he's worried about his social security number being run through seeing cops at the mall it seems like she's more worried about the cops than he is about his life. In general but the beginning of the season we had the scene with the cabdriver. That guy's kind of a menace. I just feels like he's not there by accident. Not The way he behaves and not what he says like. You'll get it right the next time. It's like he's there for a reason. He's got muscle with him. Who just wanted to come along and see what was going to happen. It just seems like there's at least a possibility that follow could be involved in us but Jimmy does or does not seem concerned about the threat of Lalo throughout the course of breaking bad. Not sure why all these years later when he gets spotted in Omaha that he might feel like. Oh this is the work of gallow La lows on my tail. Lama was on my tail and he hired a cab driver. That was most recently. Seen in the DEUCE. Yeah good point. It's definitely a good point. I I don't know I just it. It does feel to me like they will get into some of the breaking bedtime line in season six. I don't think that's a screaming hot. Take I understand what you guys are articulating about whether we need it or not or how much we need our things. We definitely don't need it. I'M GONNA agree that we don't need to. I also do think it's instructive to think about how did breaking bad and in how how a lot of ways like people who walked away from being being like Oh they really forgave Walter White and the storytelling right like like that kind of storytelling in the disembarkation of a of a show like this could be like. Oh we got back on breaking bad. That's what the fans well and as far as that goes. I mean you talk about Karmic retribution. Or Got Away with it. We know the fates for so many of these characters one of the ones we don't gene. It's a matter of like. Does he get away with it? Or is Jimmy. Ultimately the guys we talked earlier in this podcast maybe his greatest sins aren't the things he did in breaking bad. But maybe something happened with Kim We had feedback from Andrew. Who said I hope that next season isn't the season of them screwing over Howard? I was happy to be done for the most part with H H and Chuck and was hoping this story would keep moving forward and not have to go revisit Sandpiper etc. I'm sure they'll do an excellent job with whatever the story goes though but do you guys what what's your threat. Level is threat level midnight. For Howard Hamlin. Is it something different? We're going to get them going through with some horrible plan to take our down. Rob I think so. I do wonder if this culminates. Maybe in doing something terrible to our. And then maybe you know something like you know something terrible like He commits suicide or something like that. And that You know living with That blood on their hands. Maybe Kim as the wanting to be like come on. There's no big deal and maybe for for Jimmy. It's you know a lot to handle and that could be something. That sort of like accelerates the split up between the two but I definitely feel like something bad is coming with Howard a Howard somehow has been part of the main cast and the promotional materials. So I do feel like an arc for Howard is going to be a big part of the combination of the series. Yeah and I think that You know we've gotten on the show before of Howard saying that Kim and other people but I think it was the Kim was. The conversation is a lot of ways I envy you. He inherited his role in. Hmo right like nepotism that brought him to the to the head of this company and he's talked about how like Kim you've got freedom you can go out you can bootstrap yourself like there's parts of him that like envy that and I think a lot of bad stuff happens to Howard Hamlin over the course of better call Saul and the appearances that he has had where he actually comes out on the other side like a little more whole like he goes to therapy after the chuck stuff and suddenly kind of cares about like making things right with Jimmy and then when Jimmy is like doing all these various things to Howard like Jimmy. Bike is actually like why should but why. I really just want to know why and then like trying to go to Kim. That's a toxic guy. And not because he's vindictive towards Jimmy. I don't gather but because he's like be careful. This is a vindictive guy. He's a little tattletale. I didn't get that. I didn't get that from Howard. I think. Maybe it's just 'cause around Howard so we Howard to stick together but I think that Howard could be taken down horribly lose. H H am and then emerge on the other side of it not like in a better position necessarily but able to make lemonade out of lemons. That are going to be squirted into his open wounds from Kim and Jimmy eviscerating him and not copious amounts of assistance into him. No hopefully not Davison. Dan Lemonade it. I just yeah it. It's a thing that I know. They continue to want to work with the actors that they like. I love that about the show because I invest in these smaller characters become bigger characters. I WANNA see the Bill Oakley's of the world. I certainly make no exception for Patrick Fabian. And I loved if you listen to the producer. Podcast Patrick always had these interesting takes about Howard and they have been his takes about the care throughout. Its you guys are articulating here about whether he's being a tattletale or not being a tattletale. What is his role? In all of this there has seemingly been some the takes. Patrick Fabian has about who he thinks Howard Hammers have not always been who the audience think Howard. Hamlin is and I think there has been a lot of interesting stuff to revisit there and I do think it's good that he's a good guy that he's trying to do the right thing that he's trying to do the right thing as ultimately been his undoing with these horrible people that he keeps trying to do the right thing for. I think there is some room for them to revisit. The what what the result of that is and I. I wouldn't say that we're done with that. I think you guys are saying. It's no doubt about going to happen. I think there's a possibility that everybody that we've seen before from page and Kevin certainly to rich wichert to all the people that have played a role in this story for these characters. I mean if you're going to send him down a road. I think that road inevitably leads her to run over some of those people to treating them badly. It's one thing to say we can expose Howard. We can get that money. We can do good things with that money but then it's another thing to say. What is that? Look like as you're pursuing it? And who do you involve in this caper? And how does that go? Cliff was already brought up by Kim as somebody who would react to negative way to Howard Hamlin being having his professional reputation besmirched. But I think there's a possibility that you work all these characters in if you're going to send him down a road that leads in negative places. Those are the people that have helped her along the way. I think those are the people she could really hurt along the way as well and I think it would be easy at good way to show how far she's gone. Joe Has had for example really good positive mentor mentor relationship with Schweickart. We saw it come to a head a little bit in this season but I think they parted ways amicably. She wasn't cursing his name out the door. We could see a very different aspect of their relationship next year. Air Next season. If Kim is a different person it's an easy way to show that all of a sudden she thinks rich is a terrible person. Which is what Jimmy's been saying. All along or all of a sudden she treats him differently or treat people at that firm differently or treats page and Kevin differently instead of kissing their ass. She says horrible things to them or does horrible things to them. I think all of those things are possible. If you're telling the story of what a different Tim. Wexler looks like in Howard. Hamlin certainly plays a role in that as well and so. I think we're definitely going to revisit it. And they were going to revisit it in in the ways that you guys talked about and and more probably Evan g wants to know just generally speaking with regard to Jean. Do you think they'll utilize the wizard of Oz Motif at some point and turn genes world into color? I've seen other people Sent this as well so rob you. Were scoffing a little bit. Do you think we're going to see a color? We did see a little color jeans world. Don't forget the beginning of the series one of the very last segment we see of gene. He's watching his ads on the TV. And the only color in his world are the ads reflecting off of his glasses and seeing the colorful saul goodman world reflecting in his black and white lenses so they have already played with that. Do you think they go all in with gene and color and Kim. Maybe next boy I don't know I think it really depends on how much time we spend their. You know if we're going to full episodes I think we probably have to go full color. I don't think we wanna go like completely. New are in the for multiple episodes if it continues to be like vignettes or snippets that I think we'll continue with going with the color scheme you know. Color theory is so big in the breaking bad univer so I think that they'll continue to go with that Josh. You think we're going to switch colors at gene at some point at some point. Yeah I think so too I think our or it could be A. It's hard to know if the color is in the way that we saw Josh on. Cms meals homecoming on Amazon where there was a visual Motif. That told a story. Maybe what was not the reason? We're not seeing color jeans world because gene doesn't see it and if Kim comes into that world in some way that's where Jean sees color again like maybe that's part of it. We're seeing it through his eyes and it's rabbit boring livens up when when something changes so it could be that kind of stylistic choice speaking of stylistic choices we talked you talked about Josh lease characters looking older As as their aging Johnny Diesel Vera wrote in the great johnny desilva and Johnny Diesel Vera. Said is it just me or does Donald Audio Look? Older investor calls all that had breaking bad and that's because the actors older. You're not having this at all this complaint Josh. Johnny knows I love them but yeah is the actor got older. Yeah and so did Jonathan Banks and so did Bob Odenkirk asked about just using Johnny Murchison. Ray Ray seahorn is an in breaking bad. Brian Matching that. She's older now than she was. When bringing them filming. Is She going to look younger? And if they do the scenes in the breaking bad timeline. How do we keep up consistency? Do we have to make her look younger. Like Mike looks younger. Like Gus looks younger. Like Jimmy looks younger. Do we have to make racy Horn? If she's in the breaking bedtime line look younger. I Dunno I'm such a fan of chicanery generally but I don't know why I'm just not I'm not having it with this one. I just don't want this one. Get this off my plate. Jada what else is on your plate. Josh or ROB. Did you guys have anything else that you'd like to talk about with this season. A Better Call Saul start with you Josh. We were a week out or a little bit more from our thoughts on the finale. Does anything from the conversation. We've had tonight or anything else occurred to you in that week that you wanna get off your chest before we wrap up a peace of me. That's like Oh man I don't want this show to and they're just starting to lake activate Kim Wexler in this way and I want to see a lot of that and the other part of me is is the one that I think is. The is the correct instinct which is like get out of the party. Before you overstay your welcome and I think like Kim before she turns into like a rage monster doing keggers get her out of your take her home so she's not too hung over in the morning. I better calls doing the right thing in wrapping up. I just feel really hyped on the story right now and really baked into the details and I know it's not going to be unless I do the full rewatch again like I just won't feel quite as fresh on it when when we get there so. I guess I'll probably have to do the full rewatch again. Once we get there and so to listen to the whole season of podcast. You know I try not to do that. Because it makes me feel weird. I look forward to that. Because that's probably like what a year and a half from now? Something like that at the soonest would be my bet. Maybe a year from now seems really soon. I think it'll be really ready but I'm sad to walk away from it right now till then. Yeah you know so. I'm looking forward to getting back into it. I'm sad to hit pause on it now. 'cause we're cooking with gas and gases is where it's at really really happy with where the show is at at the moment. What about you rob? What are your your ultimate takeaways or anything else? You'd like to talk about coming into this. I wanted to mention that. We have touched on a lot over the years of that Kim and her fandom for the Kansas City royals and I thought that inhere like maybe most important scene in the series. She's wearing that. Kansas city royals shirt. So I kept probably not a coincidence and I wonder if that's just like another big client towards that she might not be that far from where Jeanne is and maybe I I. I do feel like that. We end up seeing her in that You know Epilogue that we get one of these days. Also the flashback. To Kim this season I always thought that was a super important thing and it just like sticks with me still that line. Her mom drives away like you. Just don't listen. I have to feel like that's also like one of the most important lines in the five seasons of the shell that we're gonNA just like go back and like the you know that Kim. She just didn't listen. Listen to what the bad choice road story. Chuck Howard like who is that. She didn't listen to all of the above. I share my horse had written in and said the same thing Kim starting to head down the same path that her mother was on when Kim said that to her. So I think you guys are on the right page there. Yeah and Cavan and also then finally I want to give a shout out to my buddy Roy. Wood junior who in the episode Akiva Roy Wood Junior that he was the person who does the fellow defense attorney public defender at the courthouse. Who handed off of the files to Kim? Wexler and brought her into the vault so very excited to see Roy junior who I used to podcasts. With once upon a time way back when he's gone off to do really great things on his career on the daily show and Stand up work. But it's great to see him making what I believe to be his dramatic acting debut here. Better Call Saul with. That could be a road for you right. I think rob sister turn dramatic actor. Podcasts return dramatic actor would be fun. I think that makes a lot of sense. I if I recall Robin those days podcast with Roy. Wood Jr. none other than the terrel Owens said you were one of L. A.'s. Great up and coming young COMEDIANS. So yes sure. Is it just mirrors? Rob Look older on this podcast Robinson right now on this podcast and when we started the podcast and he did years ago. This your loved Roy. Wood on the producer podcast. He's funny if I'M NOT MISTAKEN. I think they specifically said you know we were. I think this story was that one of the writers was talking it over with their spouse and their spouses. Like what about Roy would like because they were a big daily show Fan And said weekly. Why don't you get Roy? Wood on the show and they were like well. I don't think we can get really would book image shot and the Roy. What specifically trying to get Roy. Would it was not one of those open. Call like your agent tells you to go. They wanted Roy they got. I'm sure he was a fan of the show too. He watches like a ton of TV. So I I think that he was probably like I don't know if he's like publicly said that he was a fan of the show but I'm sure that he was thrilled to be part of the universe. I didn't want to spoil that for you if you didn't know that it has. Oh my God what's good we didn't we didn't give him as good of a shoutout as we should have on the finale podcast But they they I I I thought of you when I was just like. Oh Rob is going to love. The fact that he's boy Roy. Wood shows up here. That was really cool. Roy Junior Roy. Wood A it's a Roy. Wood Jr. Type. Won't you know what was shot almost completely ancilla wet and so it was a little hard for me to like like the way the way that that scene was shot in the stairwell like it was so the there was the light the light coming through and I don't know like stylistically what that was supposed to represent but it wasn't like the best lit scene so I was like? Oh it's like it's a rubel junior. Yeah it was. It was not only. Did they specifically try to get for that scene? One of the other things. They remarked about pleasure by the way to keep hearing. You guys say the words would junior over and over again just like. I love the way that it sounds coming from you both junior. They got Roy Junior. And what are the other things that they did was for one of the very first times? the piece of music that was used when Kim was wondering throughout the room looking at all the cases as Roy. Wood junior was going over the types of cases that we're in there that was one of the very first time they had ever scored directly for Kim that they had ever given Kim her own music or her own themes that is something certainly to keep an eye on. I think Josh that goes with what you're saying or what you just said recently. Which is that Roy? Wood Jr. sounds coming by the way that Roy junior sounds. It sounds exactly melodic like that music. They scored for Kim. I know it goes with what you're saying about how the show is really picking up steam with Kim Wexler Mike. They're really getting to a point in it. Not Be that just request. Rex is somewhere where we end up. but we have a really fascinating thirteen episodes to look forward to. Has We got to that point with Kim Wexler? I think you know Josh. You said you may not. You may be losing a lot of these details if you don't go back and rewatch one of the things that occurred to me last time. Mary watching it and I may have said this. At some point on the podcast is that after season one better call. Saul they very clearly in my mind. Now that we know the full story of being the story of Jimmy and Kim they press a hard reset button so that by the end of season two episode wine weather. Jim Eh Jimmy and Kim will be a thing and to what extent and whether Jimmy's antics will influence that one way or the other. That is the central story that they put right at the heart of the beginning of the second season. It is to the point where Jimmy is driving away at the end of season one and they turn around at the beginning of season two and they have them at Davidson main by that. Second Season's second episode or so so Jim Jimmy. Kimmel put right there on center stage and since then I think their relationship being so central to the show how they relate to one another where the negative energy we're the negative energy comes from in that relationship and where those interactions lead them has been so clear to see that art doubt and where is going right. Now it's really really cool to see and you're right. It's hard to say like I'm ready for it to end. This is a show that at the end will break. We'll better call Saul have run longer than breaking bad by the interest right around the same amount of time crazy close. Yeah absolutely crazy rob. Would you have predicted that when we started podcasting about better call Saul seasons ago? No I mean I think I was certainly vocal over the course of podcasting and the first time it felt like that they were meandering but I also think that they were and I think they did finally figure out what they wanted to do that. I think that the great thing about this writing team is that they can ultimately take an idea of like all right Walter White. Has the machine gun in the back of the car? What is the story to ultimately get there and so they started like writing this show and I don't think that they had a clear idea in mind of what it was going to be as we're talking about now like they did a really big re-centering of what the show is going to be about into the second season and I think that they ultimately found like this Really Compelling Story to tell and now that they know what they want the story to be. They're going there and they're firing cylinders but I did think it took them probably a long time to figure out what the story was. They wanted to tell yeah agreed. So it's it's going to be sixty three episodes on better call saw. It was sixty two on breaking bad plus out Camino. So yeah we're going to we're going to net out right around the same amount that is crazy to think that it's also crazy to think about. This is going to be our last podcasts. At the season as far as we know Josh any further limitations before we wrap up here no but now I'm just thinking about on Nigger 'cause he says lamentations and Conan a great way but no intentions. Lamentations of the women is what he says. I love this show and I really loved this season. I thought this is the best season in the show for sure. And I'm really glad that I got a chance to weigh in on it rob. Thank you for pulling me into this Internet's world it's been. It's been a pleasure to do the thing that we do here on your show recaps which you say at the start of this podcast. With broke down we break down the episodes. It makes you feel like a butcher right like it makes you feel like you're like you're like surgically like getting into the Under the hood of a show a Franck into the front of the show and that is that's my stuff. I really love doing it. And this is a show that really rewards that kind of work the leaning forward of it and it was just a blast to do so Mad Props to you rob for pulling me in and Antonio for all the tireless work. You've done all along the way here. Property You guys for sure rob thank you so much for coming on the couple episodes that you did this season with US I. I'm so when you have texted me a couple of times out the season. I was so thrilled that you were keeping up with better call saw because like you said I know. In the past couple of seasons the show L. Felt more meandering and it's not a thing that feels like appointment television but I'm so glad that you stayed along with us. So many people did Throughout the season I'm glad show is rewarding that investment that people are making it. Yeah it's been really fun and I love listening to you guys. And it's a tree to ever come on and talk with both about a show and of course we remain thankful to everybody behind the scenes at post show recaps who've worked with us throughout the season Josh. You know more specifically about every person that does every job than I do. I Know Brennan. Fitzpatrick has done a lot with the social media aspects Stevie and Alex on the back end with the production. Am I leaving anybody? I is huge for everything that we're doing here. Organizationally Stevie Z. Outsor- beano so huge props to everybody and and the fits who's who's making everything happened for us. Socially literally in terms of my my social appointments taken care of. That's why I have to get in touch with. Yeah you gotTa Talk to fits told her quarantine quarantine better called Fitz. Lots of great people making all this happen all right. Well if we find another reason to we will be back to podcast but we will certainly plan to return for the sixth and final season of better call. Saul until then stay. Stay safe and we'll talk to you thank you.

Kim Jim Jimmy Mike Saul Nacho Kim Wexler Saul Goodman Josh Winkler Walter White Jimmy McGill Antonio Guy Spencer Rob Sunnier Francesca Francesca Right Howard Hamlin Camino Robert Forester Papa Jesse Saul Scott Mike Story
10-Mile Runs: Reading Frasier's Wikipedia page & talking Better Call Saul

Brunch

44:45 min | 10 months ago

10-Mile Runs: Reading Frasier's Wikipedia page & talking Better Call Saul

"Yeah I mean like I. Don't feel bad anymore like I don't i. Don't feel anxious. I. Don't feel depressed. I don't feel like branch. Hey the risk of getting all challenge of the week. What have you been doing? Work Allies during this. Guy I worked out once this weekend. For about twenty minutes and I just did some push ups I use the resistance bands. Did some setups did some mountain bikers? And that was it. That's all I've done over the course of like this month month and a half, or whatever it's been I've worked out one time for like twenty minutes working out inside the home has a very. Who are we kidding? Kind seriously? Yeah, so I can drop. I can do the I'll do. Push ups in my in my home other than that. I've I've I've I've started running. which is good, which I'm probably way overdue, but I can't do like a and it turns out. Everybody can because these places are doing like these great workouts. He can follow from your phone. I? I just. Anime I feel like I'm qualified or something. I feel like I can't do it. I mean I feel like even if I bust my ass. Still GonNA lose gains I'm still GonNa like I'm still going to like the best I can hope for is reverting to somewhat of Jesus Bah. So like if I'm not gonNA. Go lose all this muscle. Anyway. I'd rather just I'd rather just commit to the bit man and steer into the not work out and just fucking play video games all day, so lose gains means not gain as much as you would normally, or you're saying you're. You'd be losing mass by doing cardio base things I would just be like. I'm going to lose mass. No matter what, because there's no way that you can replicate like weight training by doing body weight exercises at home, so like I'm GONNA lose mass, no matter what. So I, just figured I'd should shouldn't even bother and it's a bad attitude to have that stupid, but it's just the way that I look at it. I've done three ten mile runs the past week. Though lamb, I mean it's something to. Look forward to or or I don't know you feel like you're accomplishing something so I feel like I feel like I should I hate running fucking. Hate running so much and I hate running outside even more than running on a treadmill so I feel like maybe I should just go on a walk just for like more. than the than the workout aspect, yeah! I've done walks. That worked I was I was just going to try that out. I was going to volunteer and lie. That I was running. You can definitely lie about what you've been doing. Work at wise during this just did it. I went for one run at the beginning of this Iran less than a mile felt like I was going to throw up. It was the worst thing. Wendy you run fucking ten miles I to run ten miles back in the day bag. Probably for as long as you've known me, I've not done any ten mile run. Then and stuff so if you wanted to run ten miles, it probably like almost kill you, but you probably be able to do it. Yeah I do I'll tell you man I could really use a spin class read about now. Not just for I mean I'm I'm eating horribly it is. I've had some bad stretches in my days. In my day, but this is a hall of fame. Awful treatment of one's body performance for me for a while, so I could just use it. To. To reverse the flow, reverse the just pump the brakes on what I doing. Also I. Just can't imagine sweating right now. Other than I had in the middle of the night in a sweat from now. As well I mean I. Feel like now if you if you come out. Yeah, I've been waking up with like night sweats and stuff and sure why just could be like a mental thing stress, so it probably is yeah by sleep schedule is totally fucked. I went to bed at six am last night. so like things are bad right now. I feel like if you if you're coming out of this in better shape than you entered it, you're fucking asshole. I. Know People that are like that and. They at least in the very beginning. There like I'll tell you what? I've never taken such good care of myself. Eating right exercising? I like my mind feels good. That was again. That was the beginning of all this. The beginning like I. WE talked about this last week. I took. I took my opportunity to freak out in the as soon as it started. Yeah, yeah, and now I've I thought that last week I was like I. Not to compare the anxiety that comes with all this to the actual virus, but I did kind of feel like. Hey I got it early. Now. I've gotten over it and now I can't get it again so now I'm Kinda. Cured from freaking out. Like chicken it's like chicken, pox, right or monitor like or like corona virus. I thought that last week when everyone was having their freak outs that I was like. Well I'm sorry I've already had it and passed it so I can't commiserate with you right now, but now I'm fully understanding that this is just never good, and even if you feel like those stretches where you're not freaking out, it just means that you've turn your brain off because yeah. Any you're anxious and you're stressed about something in. You're taking it out on the wrong thing like I've gotten like every now and then I'll go text for my friends like stupid shit and I'm like Oh. They're just being nice. Yeah, I'm different, just mad. Yeah, I, mean like I. I don't I don't feel bad anymore like I. don't. I don't feel anxious I don't feel depressed. I don't feel like. No I think. I think maybe if that happens, it's because I just have turned into such a piece of shit like again my sleep schedule terrible and waking up at one pm every day, so like my bad feelings are based off of like my life, just losing all structure, and not like the not the like anxiety surrounding this whole thing I. I feel like my entire. Presence of structure and like and everything that that keeps me aligned is out the window, and so that's what's really fucking me up right now. Yeah, I I agree with that I still I work. Kind of the same hours as I did before obviously working less and adding to travel less like. The the work process is I. Put on a shirt. One Minute before we tape if I want maybe ten minutes before we taped is make sure slightly. Put together before we get going, and then as soon as we're done recording, there's no kicking around talking to co workers busting balls catching a hockey game catching a west coast hockey game in the newsroom. It's just okay now. It's done so even though so even though we're still working and we might be keeping similar technical work hours. Is really not like that, so that gets to me and a gown on I. Just my body also has no idea when it's supposed to be ready to go, and when it's supposed to be it kind of peak performance, because they're really nobody or a lot of people. Who aren't. Doctors Nurses Grocery stores. Service Industry etc, etc, a lot of people's bodies during this time. Never really have to be on. So, I find that a lot of the time, IT'LL BE A. Six o'clock and I'm like. I have to work soon, but if I have coffee now I'M GONNA. Mess this whole thing up and then I'm really going to bed at two. And then I'm like well. It's your job. You gotta be gotta beyond so I'll drink some coffee, and then I'll fall asleep at five and I'm also I'm definitely not sleeping through the night. That's been a while. That's been an issue for me for awhile or I'll get up. After two three hours and I'm just awake and it sucks, so that's been a hundredfold during this, so it's either. Sleep paralysis, waking up in the middle of the night or stret when I wake up, it's one of the free every night yet. No real nights of sleep. It's brutal and also every morning on oboe you when I finally get up for the morning. Do not fuck with me I am. My Body is pissed. Every morning it's. Brutal I've like I've actually become one of those. Well I shouldn't check like my texts or any. I shouldn't talk to anybody before I have I've had my coffee which I've always thought. It's lame stupid thing that people say. Over jubilee. By those shirts from An. INSTAGRAM advertising it's like don't talk to me until I coffee. My coffee you go, you still shut up. Initially have my third coffee with all the funds that are like clearly taken from like. Like, Microsoft paint Oh yeah. The Lux. Shirts my other job is a cup of coffee beating them trying to get to work shelley. For Sherpa come one of, those, people, That sucks. I can't wait for you to become like a wine like the the wine. Mom because that's the next step, like I think. Ten years ago. But I think when you get when you buy those coffee shirts. Don't talk to delight bad. My my Third Cup of coffee. It's like Oh, would you also like? It's wine o'clock somewhere shirt. I think that we should just make. An honest sure about that specific to. What you were I may be experiencing like mom would say. Hey I've had some sleep issues for a while. It's also manifested itself in some. Like. My legs will get twitchy every now, and then because of it and it's it's. It's really annoying and I just never I never feel. Like I'm really going, so I I'm sleeping horribly and I need coffee before I'm even the slightest bit tolerable and there was like an exclamation point the end of it l.. Let some cursive font night I'll one that says like it's three in the morning and I definitely don't need this one beer, but I kinda lonely, and I need something to do while I try to finish my work and I have beer in the fridge. And so I'm just GONNA go for it Ha- with an exclamation point at the bottom. Oh Yeah I've definitely been doing that. I've. Yeah the the beer. Things Gotten Weird because I WANNA longtime with A. Beer or any alcohol in the in the CRIB and now I've gotten into a pretty good habit now of not doing it doing it during the week, but for a while it was like every night. I'll have like a couple of IPA's to just like. Make myself a little tired. At least yeah, that's so stupid. Bad to every night and I've been doing that, but I've been haven't been doing that with Ip. As have just been doing that with like shitty beer. Nice I just want horse zero on. Horst on Sunday. And then watched insecure because really excited insecure was back, but I was quite drunk, and I couldn't really pay attention and I was just texting my friends about. What a Haughty Andrew Andrew in that show! Yeah, he's the guy the guy yeah. He has long hair and scalp thing with molly like get out of town that couple I don't even know. Broken! Steps owed, but I was just like Oh my God this couple. Everybody in that show is just the most beautiful person we've. We've talked about that that. May need to do some casting. Make a mix in ago once in a while, please. Stop. Making us believe in this fantasy world. Isa is in contention for most gorgeous person on the planet. We've talked about how Jay. Ellis is the mass of. Intention just running away with it. Onto a honestly I agree with that. Jay Ellis just ridiculous. A penny shirtless amazed on that guy and go come for him wearing a shirt. Stay for him, not wearing shirt. That's how I would describe jails, Molly Absolute Babe, and then Andrew like what are we doing here? This is it's absurd i. don't know what happened to the show. Though because I just got distracted by Hot Andrew was yeah I haven't watched either through a little Andrew Party. You gotTA gotTa. Tell you once once better call. Saul goes off the air. One more episode left this season. I mean I'm going GonNa feel real empty because that has been like the one. There's nothing better than looking forward to like an hour of TV per week. I very much looked forward to curb your enthusiasm when that was on like just for turning my brain off and getting to watch, Larry It'd be an idiot for like thirty minutes. But I mean. Just an hour of Prestige TV. Per Week in like waiting for it and waiting for that to play out, and has been such a like a beacon of light in these times for me and I'm GonNa. Miss that so much wants better. Call Saul gone I agree, and also did better call Saul these screw around with the time, right? Every now and then. I'll DVR and it'll be like an hour and forty minutes or something like that or an hour and twenty. I think I could be wrong. Might J. D. V. are like my. Your dvr settings because my life for like an hour and twenty five this past week, but I think it was a forty seven to like a fifty minute episode. Interesting, so we? We have not talked about better. Call Saul during this stretch right I. Don't believe so, so we've got plenty of thoughts there. One. The overarching thing is this has been the best season of it. It's been one of I think we both agree one of the best seasons of television which you're allowed to say, nowadays, because it is the golden age of television so when you say. This is the best people there really isn't a really you put it up against this nineteen seventies. Think yes, because television is better in twenty twenty than it is in the nineteen seventies, so it's similar to have you say hey. This current athlete is the best of all time. Athletes now are better than they were years ago. If, you said Alexander Veterans the best goal score of all time it'd be like. Because, he would light up Gretzky. Yeah Ara- justed so yeah, I agree. But I still feel like, and maybe this is going to be a little. Contradictory I still feel with better call Saul and the discussion around it. There is a very strong. pull in need to be almost hyperbolic when talking about it. Every every time. Somebody watches an episode of Better Call Saul they. Run to twitter and make a massive declaration and I did it last week. I did it after this past episode. I forget what I said, but I was something I probably stand by, but everybody every you know what I'm saying. Everybody thinks it was like the one of the best seasons like a TV. Ever right and I agree with that. Do you agree with that? I think it's. It's likes certainly up there, I. Why does he need to do that? Why like why did I do that well? I think I think a big part of it is I still feel like better call Saul Saul is slept on by a lot of people like the watch. It fucking love it and they all they WANNA do is talk about it, but not everybody's watching it. Correct, Gret I get that because like the I've said this. A million times I've said since season one was like this show has no business being interesting or good. It really doesn't other than the fact. That Vince Gilligan's doing it which apparently, he's not even doing it anymore. We talked about that, yes, so. Discovered this yeah I was talking to a friend about the other day or maybe a couple of weeks ago. Time doesn't exist anymore and. He was saying. You saying what you were saying, which is like? It, even in season one you're like what's this show going to be and wait? It's great, even though I'll say season. One was not great. Mike was Great Season One, but it was enough to definitely hold you. Write! The chuck stuff was tough. And that's what I always say. When I recommend the show to people as like, it's a slow burn. If you get past like the first two seasons once you get past the chuck stuff. The show becomes extremely good, but I do think. Just an unlike a grand scheme thing like taking a step back from better call Saul like because we're so invested in it, and we know what it is, but like when you recommend it to somebody so like they're like this is a spin off of a breaking bad secondary character, and with a lot of people that we don't know and he's lawyer and it's like. Yeah, yes. Was a hit. Like spinoffs can be can be huge the Jeffersons. Frazier had to have been a spin off right. I don't know of cheers. Is was frazier character from from cheers. Let's look this up. I'm pretty sure he was. So I know a lot about like the cheers. Cheers and Boston, but I know nothing about actual. Cheers like the television show. Frazier! So I think I, mean I, it doesn't really make sense because it doesn't frazier. Take place in Seattle. Hold on, let's say. The program was great. All the series was created as a spin off of cheers, continuing the story of psychiatrist Frasier, Crane, as he returned to his hometown, of Seattle and sort of building a new life as a radio advice, show host while reconnecting with his father and brother, and making new friends Frazier Start Kelsey grammer Jane Leaves David. Hyde Pierce Peri Gilpin in John Mahoney. The show was critically acclaimed with the show itself and the cast winning thirty seven primetime. Emmy awards a record at the time for a scripted series. It also won the. The Primetime Emmy Award for outstanding comedy series for five consecutive years as of Twenty nineteen, the possibility of revival was being discussed to air in twenty twenty overview psychiatrists, Dr Frazier Crane Grammar returns to his hometown of Seattle. Washington following the end of his marriage and his life in Boston as seen and cheers, his plans for a new life as a bachelor are challenged when he's obliged to take in his father Martin a retired Seattle Police Department detective who has mobility problems after being shot in the line of duty during a robbery. Frazier Hires Daphne Moon leaves as Martin's live in physical therapist and caregiver and tolerates Martin's dog. Eddie Frazier frequently spends time with his younger brother Niles Pierce. A fellow Psychiatrist Niles becomes attracted to, and eventually falls in love with any notwithstanding his own marriage, but does not confess his feelings to her until the final episode of the seventh season fucking spoiler Jesus. do you to keep going you? WanNa, take you WANNA keep rotating. You do frazier hosts and I'll wrap it up. Frazier host. The doctor Frasier Crane show a call in psychiatry show on Radio on Talk Radio Station K. ACL his producer. Roz Doyle is very different from frazier. In many ways, she is working class direct, and at least early in the series has superficial relationships with many men, however rose, and frazier share a professional respect and a wry sense of humor, and over overtime they become best friends, frazier and the others often visit the local coffee. Coffee Shop Cafe Nervosa the cream. Brothers who have expensive tastes intellectual interest in high opinions of themselves frequently clash with their blue-collar average, Joe Father. The brothers close relationship is often tense and their sibling rivalry intermittently results in chaos for a pair who make a living solving other problems. They are often comically inept at dealing with each other's myriad hangups, other recurring themes include now's relationship with his never seen wife later, ex wife Mar Mariss Maurice. Frazier's search for Love Martin's new life after retirement, and the various attempts by the two brothers to gain acceptance into lookout Seattle. That just means high society so spinoffs can be big. Frazier was a spin off. The. Jeffersons was was a spinoff, but getting back to the. Actual Gilligan involvement. This was fascinating, so I was texting with the friend. About better call Saul and he noted. Yeah you know. The the show actually slept on because it opened with such a huge number this massive number. And then it's just routinely not gotten great rating since so that made me kind of revisit the okay. You can call better call Saul. Underrated people aren't watching it, but then we are talking about how good the show is, and how like? Wow, it's crazy that Gilligan is bringing it just as hard in this as he didn't break bad. and. This was after last week's episode. My friend was like I. Think this the only episode this season that he directed. So I went back and. These this is Vince Gilligan's writing and directing involvement and better call Saul per-season season one. He wrote one and directed one season two. He wrote one and directed one season three. He wrote one directed to. Season Four. He directed one season five. He directed one and that's not counting this past weeks, so I don't know if If he did last week, but basically he does may be one episode of season. That is nuts. At least Brennan is working on. Yeah, at least credited for one show per season like. I still think that he's. Running the show I still think that he's of course. I show show runner here and. It's hard for me to believe that he doesn't have heavy involvement. especially with how good it's been, and how how similar a lot of the like the execution has been in terms of just building up the story, and like the shots and stuff so. I. Don't know if it's just like him. Be Spreading the ball around in letting. Some other people get get love in credits all over the place. But it's not like getting to believe. But it's not him saying. Hey, let's get some love because. People are contending as they watch this that this has been skill best work. So if he's spreading the ball around, he's letting. He's essentially letting Kendrick. Lamar onto his sung. And saying like Hey, this is my thing. Come do a better job than I'm doing which is wild because Vince Gilligan has obviously earned this reputation as one of the Great TV. Writers and directors, but if we're going to say that, this is at times better than breaking bad, which it is I think that overall breaking bad still better, but if we're going to say that, this is at times better than breaking bad and this season, certainly better than say season three of breaking bad, then we have to say wow Vince Gilligan assembled a team that can do a better job than he can do on his own I mean I still think that it's. Yeah okay, so he can assemble better team that he can do on his own and I think. That's like criticizing beyond safer using a bunch of producers. The. Still beyond. Talent and like why would you? Why wouldn't you get some of the best? Around to do that. I am always on board with getting many producers and doing whatever you can to make something the best. I'm just saying that. Nobody says while beyond say wrote this great song they say Whoa. This is a great beyond song. She killed it. Let's look the credits. Let's see who else is involved. WHOA, Father John Misty. Ronin Shit like that, but with Vince, Gilligan, it's more everybody. Everybody rushes to give him credit it. I've done it I've been guilty of that in the past. Because like I, just didn't think that I didn't realize that. His attachment was so loose at least credits, saying no I was saying the same thing and. I do buy interesting now because when everybody's whenever somebody puts out that hyperbolic tweet about like. Wow, this. This sort of better call Saul was the best episode of television. Ever someone always responds and says it's wild Vince Gilligan is doing better now than he was however many years ago. It just really interesting it to your point. It just shows how whenever Vince. Vince Gilligan does anything or whenever something involving Vince Gilligan POPs up. The natural instinct is to say, Vince. Gilligan did all this. This is amazing. Hell, even when people talk about how much they love Kim Wexler. They're like wow. He was writing Schuyler in season in breaking bad. which scholar is great, but Jesus Kim so is one of the great television characters ever. So everything everything goes back to Vince Gilligan I. Have this question on Kim Wexler. Do, we think. I'll put it this way. We know two things going into this last episode of Better Call Saul. that. Kim Wexler is out of the picture, and that Lilo is out of the picture by the time up to breaking bad right. Yeah, we know that these two guys are these two characters. Do not last. PUTT. Is Kim Wexler a Jesse Pink men. In that the plan all along? Was this going to be the character that's lost along the way and that shapes. Our main character in some way, shape or form. But the character like in Jesse's case proved to be so good. Teddy said all right, never mind. This is now the co-lead of of this entire series. I wonder if the plan was always. For Kim to crash and burn. No Pun intended because she. We thought that maybe she was going to die when she got in that car crash. Get killed off in some way shape or form. But. She was such a good character that now she's. Stayed around a lot longer so much so. Positive? She dies in this finale. Yeah, I, don't know it's A. It's a good question. I just I think that like. There's there's not a lot to suggest that that Kim was going to go anywhere I. Guess like they built her up as a big piece from the very beginning. Nobody nobody knew the whole time watching it like she's GonNa die, or she's no yeah yeah. Like maybe keep her around for a little bit longer, but I don't think that Vince Gilligan or whoever's run on the show, I as we just mentioned, we don't. I don't think that there's a ton of pressure to keep her around. For just for the sake of keeping around, I mean she is extremely important to the show. in like has been. Great on this show, but like obviously you don't need to keep her around for the sake of breaking bad or whatever like I think she could easily. Get written off in a way that. Could attr- like contributes to the betterment of the show? Yeah the there's been Jimmy. Sa- go to one. There's no hard time where we need to be caught up to breaking bad by a certain time, so theoretically they could string along the Kim and Lilo and the picture for another two seasons I'm sure it would be lovely television. But I don't think. I don't don't think they get that that the show. Has that intention though like Gillian. Ever want to stretch things out for the sake of stretching it out, right. That's like that's a walking dead. Move where they're like okay well, this is working. This is making money so now we've got A. WE'VE got to keep this exact same thing going for as long as we can. The other is if they kill off Kim. There were. There's obviously reason to think that she wasn't going to make it through. This, past episode. If they kill her off. The show can continue to be awesome and like you said it can serve the show which is wild because she's. Out Oh! She's a Lotta polls. favorite character on the show but I'm glad that we didn't get to talk about the last two episodes. Because now we don't just have to hit on stuff. That happened the last episode with all the stuff in the apartment, but. I think the I tweeted. This is Mike Hyperbolic tweet from that episode. Everybody likes to try to pinpoint one Walter. Becomes Heisenberg I think that. The! Two weeks ago, the one that was basically four days out. It was just a reprise of that breaking bad episode. That was the episode I think the Jimmy officially fully transitioned to Saul. I saw that tweet. It! I wanted to know why. Just, but. He wasn't fully calculated. Always was up until that point, but now he's like getting himself involved in such high stakes stuff that he actually he has a lot more. Oh Shit! I've fucked up moments than just the straight all right. There's a plan behind everything in the early seasons of this show. He's constantly putting stuff over on people he's. Clever Shit, but in breaking bad. That's really not you could understand. How at one point in his life he was like that, but in breaking bad, he's in so over his head, and he's really hanging on by the skin of his teeth and a lot of his endeavors like he's getting pulled out into the desert thing and he's GonNa. Get Killed God knows how many times in this was more. Also he's also. Yeah he's extremely paranoid. Breaking bad I think that's a that's something that's easy to forget because Jimmy so Katcher a lot of the time in in better call Saul like when you go back to breaking bad. He's he's ready to get the fuck outta there like any time. Something goes wrong. Right because he's he's, there's there's. No, we watch the beginning of better call Saul and we know that like. This is going to be some sort of tale in as to how all these sins that eventually catch up with him themselves out. And now they're actually starting to. They're they're actually starting to happen. He's actually starting to to commit those sins. Where prior to the? Rebel unforgivable things he was actually doing he was more kind of. Derek, like he was more like white collar crime shit than this, which is now, he's getting involved with for real murderers and. Do. That was so brutal the scene in the court when he's talking to Lalo. In Laos has who those people and he said. That's the family of so and so and all those like that. That's like one of the last seconds you see him. Be Human, and obviously he's human this past episode where he's talking to Mike and being like we're getting this. This guy is the worst and our job is to get him to jail. It's. It's been an incredible incredible. season. Do what did you think of Kim leaving her firm? I didn't totally get it, but Me Neither Yeah. I didn't totally get it especially with like the timing of it, but. yeah. I, I really like the the element of like her trying to hide shit from the guy who's on tour at the firm. Who brought her in and I think that is a really I. Don't know what it is about that guy, but here's a really calming presence on screen, and he's just like a fatherly figure, and I wish that there was more of that like I. Don't know. Maybe maybe it comes later. but like him sort of coming or not coming onto her belly. Figuring out that that she's in bed with Jimmy both literally and metaphorically was an interesting aspect that I thought we should have got more of. Yeah. Do you think that she do you think she gets through the finale I mean her in Lala are obviously the two the two biggies. I throw Nacho in there to who survives between those three because nachos. Diet some point, yeah! I. Think Nacho is like getting. is experiencing a little like fatigue, but he's getting kind of pushed out a little bit I feel like Yeah I know, but like nobody just like pushed out of the plotlines because you know, he's caught between both sides, and they're both Jerkin him around and like he's sort of just running in place because he's. He's ready to go, but he can't do anything so I think something has to happen with Nacho yeah and Mike. Driving that to right so. It's either like shit or get off the pot with Nacho at this point, and Honestly I I'm sort of hoping that he's the one to go at the end of this at the at the finale here because it's been building up to something and there needs to be something drastic happens, and I think that there's going to be something drastic. That happens in the finale, and if it's Nacho that I think that that's good for the show, because obviously, Kim is in a new place and there's there's. Areas for her character to go in for like the show to explore especially now that she is like fully in. This world with Jimmy and Lolo in her room. I could be really interesting because there obviously butting heads early on and she's way more like adversarial towards him than Jimmy is. Yeah the the here's the thing the also have to follow with like. These dramas. Whenever. They're about to kill somebody off. There's either some like grand thing. Be Do where there's a redemption ark or something think I mean I made the reference of walking dead was. Who who's the the brother played by? Michael Rooker. He's the. Merle! Is that his name Merle. Something like that. He's like. He's. All these terrible things and then there's an episode where he's like. You know what? I'm going to do what's right. And he helps them out in like three different ways, and then at the end of the episode he goes to kill the governor and he gets killed, and you're like well. We should have seen that coming. When suddenly we dedicated a lot of time to him and made him do this kind of thing. and. It's Michael Putting pressure on gas for Nacho like that's a sign. That's like okay well, then they're going to get rid of Nacho or Kim. Confrontation with Lallo. Okay well, then. Someone's going to kill Kim. or I for some reason I think that Lallo gets through this I. I hope so because that's been a fucking always. Great character and he's. He's so great because he's so fucking unpredictable. He a in like he is extremely unpredictable and extremely untrustworthy for anybody involved. Yeah so like he's. He's an unbelievable villain to to add into the mix. I just think that there's more places to go with Kim than there are with Nacho at this point. So I would like to see Nacho go, even though if in love him. Yeah I just had his time. Yeah. Should we do a Uh. Maybe it'd be too much. A Nubia pain in the ASS. Should we do like a? Season Finale Watch along thing. To do we should? We should do a post better. Call Saul twitch. Okay, we can do that. I was GONNA say maybe during commercials and Shit like that, but. I, don't know. I I don't I wouldn't want to do that, I don't think. I WANNA like be in locked in on the show and then maybe discuss it afterwards. Ok, well, we'll, we'll do something. Off of that anyway. Let's get. Sonos always thinks I'm talking whenever I'm working or casting or doing anything. Sonos is like it starts. It says on back to me and then I don't know what it said and I said. What did you say Sonos and it does? I got a disabled. Those mics God. Let's get to the challenge of the week or this week and challenges the this weekend challenges, so there have been two. They both involve pictures of yourself. Shocker one is a senior. And one is picks from when you were twenty. The senior pictures thing is apparently, not apparently, this is a fact. Seniors are not going to have their graduations, and they're not going to be able to do. The the pomp and circumstance that accompanies graduating, and and that's that's sad, so people are posting. Their own senior appears to make them feel better. People are posting their like their actual senior pictures like I'm done. Yes, they're all. Seniors feel good I'll tell you what it doesn't. It looks like it's like other things about yourself. How could that honestly? Hey Hey sorry man like sorry. I won't use the I was going to use the example of like hey. Sorry your dog died. Here's a picture of my dog, but that's exactly what I was just going to say but I don't. Here's a picture of my dog. Here's a picture of my dog who is still alive. Open may feel better. I don't WanNa tie definitely, but like that's like the easy and now like. Oh, sorry you've. Sorry you you your your home checkout job. I stand by you. Here's a picture of my home. You can't live here. Yeah Seriously If I didn't I didn't I. Don't think I'd seen people posting the senior pictures, but. Now I'm glad, and I certainly keeps post an old pictures of themselves, and they're like who this one's embarrassing like. You didn't have to do it. Do that. Why are you? So the other one is people posting pictures of themselves when they were twenty, which I got tell you. Why would anyone do that especially? Got I'll use the example again? Like a lot of men look better as they age than they do when they're young. You're not seeing Jon, Hamm do that. When I was twenty challenge, people are going to say okay. I think we're out on Jon Hamm then the as you looked Grossman you were twenty, but I think that's the point. Nobody is like posting like when I was twenty to be like I looked better here in everybody's sort of embarrassed with the while they looked like when they were twenty. Can, you don't have to do it? WHO's. What is anybody winning or gaining from it very stupid. They're stupid. You've been doing masks. Like a face mask or like a like a skincare, face mask or like a A mask. Sound like I'm talking about skin care but I. Mean Pandemic Mask Yeah Ellen sister made me a mask and I'm pretty excited about it. It's a it's like a cool pattern and I'm just I just I need a mask I don't want to go outside until. I have a mask and so I'm excited to get it MC. Cited to put it on, and hopefully be able to avoid the coronavirus out there. Yeah I know I'm just I'm just cover my face though I'm doing I'm doing a lot of scarfs I've got a couple of dope scarfs. Celtics one. I've got a prince. One Prince Ones Dope. I haven't used that yet. I just keep using the Celtics one because I don't want to. Get my mouth all over this awesome print scarf that I have, but yeah, that's that's becoming a when I when I go for my walks I went for a walk A. Maybe earlier in the week and I felt like an Asshole, because I was the only person on the street, not wearing a mask and I was like okay. This is over I. Did I'm not raw dog in this anymore. Tossing something on my face whenever I go out and honestly it's a good deal. It doesn't change that much. It's weird, but then again it was weird the beginning of this when you walk into the grocery store and you'd see a bunch of people wearing masks. It's an unsettling thing, but. For the better buddy, so everybody do masks do challenges. If you can, I'll tell you. This was kind of an underwhelming week for challenges I think the challenges are losing steam, which is maybe a good thing because I'll tell you what these. Definitely none of them have been good, but the one industry that is to. Thrive off of this. Are All these like facial recognition software things? Because now they're like okay. We have one hundred pictures of you from every angle. We know what you look like. When only your eyes are exposed, and we knew what you look like at age five ten, fifteen twenty, so now we know how the average person ages and like what features change and people are going to man. People are Gonna be able to make videos if you do horrible things like when you were ten years old. Something like that because we're just walking right into it so. Cover your face. Challenges. R.I.P NACHO.

Saul Saul Vince Gilligan Jesus Kim Nacho Kim Wexler frazier Mike Hyperbolic Jimmy Andrew Andrew Eddie Frazier producer Emmy Award lamb Wendy Iran Seattle INSTAGRAM Microsoft Jay Ellis twitter
Better Call Saul | Season 5, Episode 6 Recap: Wexler v. Goodman

Post Show Recaps

1:20:19 hr | 10 months ago

Better Call Saul | Season 5, Episode 6 Recap: Wexler v. Goodman

"Call Saul season five episode. Six Wexler v Goodman is over. But we're just getting started here at post show. Recaps better call Saul Recap podcast. Hello everyone i Antonio Massaro and I am thrilled and a little bit scared honestly to talk about what happened a better call. Saul this week with a my main man Josh. Wigley Josh our you. I'm feeling like either. We need to stop doing this. Podcast or we got get married. Should've I should've known that that's where we're going to go. That's the marriage. Marriage is what point. Assegai brings us together to us that that was that was say man and wife was this man and was this something that you did this. Come out of nowhere left field for you. It feels like a left ending for a lot of people all right so obviously we are in the thick of it. Now we're kind of talking about the spoiler stuff in a bit of an abstract way. But we're going to get right into it. I think because how can we not that this episode largely centered on Jimmy going full saw gibbon on assault Kidman Goodman on Jewish given? I could say that I am Saul Goodman on Kim. Wexler and Man. It was ugly and it was awful and it was horrible to have to watch and sit through. That is one of the worst feelings I have had watching television period. Let alone a show set in the breaking bad better call Saul Universe and we got to that. Final scene and Kim is kind of like gearing up to give Jimmy the. What for like fucking like Jimmy me like you sold me like you cannot do that when she. She went and like really dug into him. You're dropped hard fs and everything. I actually said out loud as she was taking her shoes off and rolling her sleeves up. I said out loud as I was watching the Oh so. She's about to beat him up that she was literally Szekely. Going to kick the crap out of Jimmy and that almost no beat down in the history of television was more deserved and then instead she basically proposes to him so that was not on my radar in any way shape or form there was zero universe in which I believed she was going to say. Let's get married to end this or we get married and I'm grateful to have this podcast as a vehicle through which to work through our better call Saul psychic harm that has been inflicted upon us. Because I'm I'm not entirely sure that I understand where she's at emotionally. I'm I'm struggling to figure out if this is very left. Field or if this is very tragically right where she has been for a long time. Grateful to be here talking to the master to to get it through so I duNno. I Dunno uncle Tonio but this episode made me feel bad. Call me the mess racing. I look like the guy from the strain. Hope not no. This is not a thing we look. It wasn't it was left field but I think what we should talk about is whether we feel like it makes sense. Even though it's coming from the outfield instead of the infield out and of course start the episode with a little bit more drips and drabs of information about Kim that may be helps illustrate where her head is at or how cooked it might be. She probably would be safe to say that. She is the adult child of an alcoholic at this point in her life and there are twelve step groups for that specifically ACOA and others Alanon is a support group for people who live with alcoholics. Because you pick up your own Situations you pick up your own mental health problems through living with that disease sometimes it's PTSD. Sometimes it can just be learned patterns of behavior whether it's codependence or some other kind of sickening thing that goes on in your life we have. I think throughout the series seeing these little details filled in about Kim you and I before we were on the podcast. We just said the words Red Cloud Oklahoma are was red cloud Nebraska Right Nebraska. Red-clad Nebraska's where where we meet her in the beginning of the when she's much younger obviously when she's not the first time we have connected that little town to Kim in her first interview with the full on partners at Schweickart and Coakley Right after the interview she of course calls rich Howard which is very awkward Bus In that interview. She talks about why she left that town in part of why she laughed was she didn't see much of a future herself. There may be getting married to the cashier at the Hinky. Dinky was her best option. Believe is what she said and she talks about her background a little bit. She has also talked in the past about really liking. Atticus finch from to kill a mockingbird and seeing that sort of Crusader in herself. The first scene of this episode clearly shows that she has been this bull headed Person who has had to deal with a very irresponsible parent Since she was young. That's where we get with that scene. It was uncomfortable and it was unfortunate to see him wexler like that. I thought that actress did a phenomenal job of really that look like Kim. Wechsler the look on her face. A Katie Beth Hall is the name of the actress who played young Kim. What she did such a good job of really channeling the speech patterns the halting speech patterns of Kim Wechsler the physicality of time this bail so hard right like when you try to present a main character as child and you bring a child actor in like oftentimes. I have no belief that this person will grow up to become the character. Josh suffered enough that he had to retire. I don't want a bag on Jake Lloyd any further than has he ever heard. The tale of darth play against the lies. Is My question to you. But but but the casting here was really really great to the details. That you're talking about the mannerisms. The way that she speaks really felt very Kim. Wexler to the point that you know before the word Kim is uttered there is zero doubt in my mind that we are watching Kim. Wexler as a kid definitely and what we're seeing in Kimbler as a kid is. Is this psychosis or whatever you WANNA call it. That has put her in the position. She's in Where she's seeking to repeat these patterns of chaotic behavior with Jimmy McGill or sell good if you will and I will she she. We see sort of the genesis of this that her mom had the one. Honey get in the car. She smells it. She refuses to get in the car such that such that. She will not only walk three miles in the snow at night. But she's been waiting. We got an email from the Great Alexander. Chester the men in black himself says why there's a young Kim at least put our bags in the car. Hashtag friends don't let instruments ride drunk Pitched at least put her instrument in there but she's proving point very clearly in this moment when she is carrying the instrument home. Mom is saying like you never listen. You don't learn like these. Are The things that she sang about? Kim Kim listens. I well put it this way. Kim. Here's Whether or not it sinks into the point she actually listens is definitely something we can. We can unpack with her Jimmy. I think there are probably some people in the audience who are thinking that on the the TV show level. She just wants to get married to Jimmy to preserve some sort of legal marital privilege That is not at all from a legal standpoint They're not married so anything they've done up to now is certainly fair game and then when they are married it only works if the person wants to assert it so it's no real protection in that regard. I just don't think that that has anything to do with that. It has more to do with the fact that we've on this podcast talked about. How the capers between Jimmy and Kim are when thereafter most connected are when they're out there most you know just a fervently energetic from a romantic standpoint. This was a huge violation and yet it gets a huge response in return to you. See these as the two choices like break-up or get married as why. Why are those the two choices in Kim's Mike? Do you think I think one of the things that are starting to really come to light about Kim. And how long has this been kind of baked into the premise of the character versus something? That is kind of like seized upon recently in the writing. You could split that difference. However you'd like but the season is really making a point to stress that a lot of Kim's life has been built on impermanent and not having home literally as a kid bouncing around having apparent who she can't trust feeling like she's the only adult in the room all of these different things that are so difficult for a child and as I have learned in my life your kid and you think some day. There's going to be the magic button that that flips NAM an adult now and none of the things that happened to me as a child will matter anymore and I will just have a new set of experiences and none of that existed anymore and I'm just an adult and that's how it's always been and it doesn't really work like that. You know what happened to you early. In your life it follows you. And you incorporate hopefully in ways that are that are healthy and and good but certainly there are things that you're gonNA incorporate in ways that are your deeply scarred by something and I think that she carries this impermanent around in a way. That is making more sense to me. As far as how it's manifesting now that I think that a big piece of the betrayal from Jimmy. Right now is like how could you do that to me? How could you do that to me? You're my home. I've stuck by your side through so much. You have been home to me for so long longer than the year or so they have been in. A row is longer than more than a year right. It's like the better part of two years that they've been in a relationship at this point but they've been close for what a decade like that you know. This guy is home to her to somebody who doesn't have like an extended family. She cares about the the fact that the that Chuck McGill. Somebody that she admired such a big way to go up against chuck was not a nothing deal in in a way it was like going up against a father figure. Almost it felt like so the McGill family has been home to her in so many ways and when she when she turns. Jimmy's offered down to work together. And things like that along the way over the course of the show. You always do get the sense that it matters a lot to her. That she's not breaking that tie that that bond between them stays even if she's making the choice that she thinks is better for her own personal career. She's always very hesitant as far as like. How is this going to impact us personally and I do think that this season for me has really clarified? That idea that for better and for often for worse and it's probably only going to get worse. Jimmy McGill is her home and in this moment of real desperation rather than readings the room and rather than finally succumbing to the weight of who? Jimmy McGill obviously is and what being in a home with Jimmy McGill obviously means. I think she still feels like she has finally found something semi-permanent and she doesn't want to let it go so those are the extreme options. It's like either we destroy this thing and you let me do it and you agree with me that we need to destroy this thing or. I'm going to go deeper into it with you and I'm heartbroken over that choice but I actually do think it makes a strong measure of sense in the context of that definitely does in the context of all of that in when you consider that she did leave h. m. that that she broke that with Howard in that was a major break for her as well and she was very cognizant of what that meant. She did that in part. Because of Jimmy's encouragement she always had jimmy default back on even if she went to Schweickart and Coakley even if she moved away from h. h. m. which had brought her up out of the mail room just like Jimmy and paid for her to go to law school and done all that for her. She still had that to fall back on. She still had Jimmy and the other thing about that. Though is there are two sides to that coin. Not just the two sides of the scale of we either below this upper we get married but the two sides to the coin are yes she had that to fall back on and you can see that as a positive but she is also like vividly aware of the sunk cost fallacy. She even says at some point a call at the sunk cost fallacy or call at some cost and that is of course the same thing I think people are saying. It's not quite throwing good money after bad but it is basically like you may see the value in an investment differently because of how much money you've already put into it not what future value might be. You're not just looking at if you. If you take from this point on how much money you could or could not make or how valuable and investment may or may not be. You are Instead of looking from that point on you're considering everything you've put into the thing already and it might not actually be a good investment but the fact that you're considering that so I think there's that aspect of it as well as even if it's not coming from a positive place like hey I know from a security standpoint and from a comfort standpoint and from these things that make me feel good in a positive way. I always fall back on you. I could also be coming from a well. I've put a lot of effort into this already. I've done all these things in pursuit of this. I'm going to continue to pursue it but that what that means is we're going to have to go to the next level on this because I can't just continue to tread water here either. We're GONNA get more serious over going to completely ended and I. I'm okay with either one but we have to make make the decision what we're doing and I think that to me the negative aspect of that that comes from a place of insecurity that comes from a place of fear that comes from a place of a person who moved around alive so it's the two sides to that coin that comes from the place of a person who has had to deal with the negative relationship with her mother when she was young. And she's putting that into that relationship and realizing like. I've done all these things I mean. I think the key thing for that to me. Is she still waiting at the curb side like her mom is late? She knows what this is. She knows what this is. What the situation is she knows. It happens before she ever smells it on her bombs breath. She knows exactly what's coming around that band and yet she is still waiting for that car after school. She could've walked hours ago. Presumably or however long. She was waiting and yet she didn't and she didn't because sunk cost because she's already invested in dealing with this because this is a thing where she's going to walk away and prove her point But she's going to wait till mom shows up to prove that point. I she's GonNa be starting about it but it's going to be clear. She's put a lot of effort into this relationship already. Says he's going to get something out of it by walking away when she dies waiting for mom to show up and then walking away so I think that's a huge part of it for her and I think it's also important to remember that this whole thing with her and Mesa Verde it starts because of her hard work in her hard work starts because Howard has put her in the doghouse over the cattleman situation all the way back to season one and cattleman situation member of the catalans. I'm an her Mrs Cattleman specifically Heo but the but it is not a situation that that she has entered into just quickly she. She worked her ass off to get that client and it was meaningful to her to get that client because she was in a bad spot because of the cattlemen's wasn't her fault. Jimmy helped get the CATTLEMEN's back. Howard still was treating him in a negative way because of what happened with the cattlemen's even after she got him back and even after she got Mesa Verde that ultimately I think led to the breach between her and h. m. and she comes to Schweickart and Coakley. Eventually she does all this stuff with her. Everything that happened between Jimmy and chuck that leads to Chuck's ultimate untimely. Demise is as a result of Kim and Mesa Verde. It's because chuck tries to take it away from her. He does his thing in upsets. Jimmy so much because off chuck records that Jimmy admits in that conversation to chuck like I did it for Kim. She deserved that client. It has of that so they take down chuck together Kim for there's all of this history wrapped up not just Jimmy and Kim but in Mesa Verde and so when Mr Aker reads her after is so vulnerable to him saying like we moved around from place to place. We did all these things and he says you know. You'll say anything to get what you want and I think you're one of those people who just tries to do a little good to make to make amends with themselves for what they feel is there. They need to do in their life. Make themselves feel better. And that is the action that causes her to bring Jimmy into the mix to begin with. Let's not forget even though it is. Jimmy's ultimate betrayal in this episode. He is so oppositional to her in the meat as you called saw she called Saul in the episode is called Wexler Goodman Not Goodman V. Wexler Sol's so's not the plane of here. Kim Is the plane of. She's the one who set this thing in motion. Jimmy defendant even though we had a really good conversation last week. I thought about whether or not he he was really trying to encourage her to pull the plug. We got the the backside of that here. She pushed it last week and he said there's another way we go after Kevin. Wachtel this week She goes to the Nail Salon and she says to him. I don't want to do this and get Jimmy's the one who really kind of pushes it. And so no right back out. But then he he of course flips pulls the plug and then he does the total a whole thing that he does Stallard Talk. He gets his juices going in the in. You know he gets his mischievous kicks on and he wants to. He wants more and it's what pushes him to do what he does in the meeting in what's supposed to be the end of it all and instead it's just like a quadrupling down probably more than that. It's it's disastrous. It's calamitous end born off from Jimmy so there's no kind of about it like to me his actions in this episode. I don't know for you really cemented for me. That like He. He was playing her last week too. I really do think the play. He likes to play more than he likes the result. And or at least as much He likes to do what he did. He likes to put on the show that he put on. He likes to get titles. I did it 'cause I was good at it and I did it because I actually and so there. There's no doubt that that's what he wanted this whole time. I do think it's interesting in terms of her culpability. Though she knew who she was calling she knows who she lays down in bed with and even though he can take her by surprise when he says saw good man at the end of last season she knows who he is at this point and she even read them at the end of the episode. And says you can't even look me in the eye and tell me that because I know and you know it's not true She knows who Jimmy McGill is so by getting him involved in running this play. I play as much as his place she. She pushed it too. I think her culpability is certainly more questionable. I'll say We got a lot of feedback about Jimmy and Howard and Jimmy Street Howard. No feedback about Jimmy's treatment of Kim none And that's telling because Howard is more innocent in this whole affair than Kim is. Kim's hands are dirty even if she wanted to walk away or even if she's taking half-measures here she is certainly culpable because she involved. Jimmy McGill and I think she knows that but like I said it. Is this whole codependent relationship. It is this relationship that is so based on just negative energy and whether it's a sunk cost or whether it's the fear of leaving home and the need for whatever kind of stability and chaos Jimmy McGill provides That is similar to the stability and chaos that she might have lived with growing up. It is from a place that that is negative but it is a place that she is in. Howard is not inviting this in any way. He tried to do a good thing but it didn't work out for him as we'll talk about. But as far as Jimmy and Kim Go. She was definitely surprised in that meeting. The anger was real. Jimmy talks about how that had to be the play to protect her. I'm wondering do you think there will be fallout from? This is rich Schweiker GonNa say look. I told you this is why you can't be on this account What what level of fallout is going to be from what happened in that meeting in terms of teams professional life? Waiting for it to be destroyed. I think that you you threw out a really good call that like the. I'm I'm less concerned about like Kim. Wexler actual life like. I'm less concerned about Kim Wexler dying. I don't think that that's the fate that awaits Kim Wexler But I think really crystallized what the great realistic fear for her is that she loses the law. You know she dies the death of a lawyer that she's not able practice anymore than her licenses. You know revoked. You destroy what is the? What is what happens like she's not going to be able to practice anymore. I think that that's coming. I think that this is not helping and I think that if they look rich schweiker a not that bad guy and be a smart guy and he he. He caught her. He didn't even have to like beyond a toilet reading the Walt Whitman passage. You know like he caught her. He knew he knows and I think he doesn't have to hell that far backward and frankly once she's hip to it. I don't think page is going to have to look that far backwards either to start putting some of this stuff together and once that starts getting together and if there can be like real tangible evidence details that they can cobble together we know how much Jimmy cobblers us I could. We could be in for a real cobbler of disaster for for Kim's professional life and then that has serious ramifications for her personal life as well. I expect this to blow up completely by the end of this. It definitely seems like it will happen by the end of the season. And I'm I'm pretty sure of that or at least I'm sure that I think the blowback will be to her and not to him as much because of course we know what happens with Saul Goodman and there are some personality blowback. Of course. He becomes a worse person in breaking bad but professionally. He's still a lawyer so it doesn't happen in that way but what we don't know the thing that's interesting is we. Don't know what he's like when he's outside of Caracas. We don't know what he's like when he's not deeply tied up to Heisenberg to that operation. So what is he doing Thai food for one? You know like you know sprinkles like what is his life looked like when this is going on and I think that this is something worth talking about here is is he going and getting tie for one is he. Having those internal debates Thai food or or Sushi tonight is he or is he just getting to choose for himself or are Jimmy and Kim about to get married and Kim is around for all of Breaking Bat. Like where are we going with all of this? I I believe in breaking bad. It comes out that. Jimmy Jimmy Esau says he has multiple ex wives at this point in better call Saul he has already indicated. He was married once. If I'm not mistaken don't remember that but I believe I believe that's the case I couldn't tell you specifically where but that is that is strong in my memory. Someone someone can chime in and let us know for on or off but if we're taking him at his word in breaking bad it's multiple exes so it would indicate that he and Kim will likely get married in. The marriage likely will not last or the other possibility. And this one might really shock you said Saul Goodman's fricken liar. Whatever he's talking about about his personal life in the breaking bedtime line is just not. H- you'll but just like a load of crap and Kim could be around for all of this we just don't know. Oh you know what I would just you say. We just don't know when she could be around for all this. I was looking up Jimmy Macgill's marital status. His first wife was someone who existed in the show. That is we performed. The Chicago Sun Roof on was this guy who was the one who ended the relationship with the in his first tiny chat this low-life so that's who got Chicago. Sun just happened to be kids in the car Yeah you're right. She could be in the breaking bad time line. He mentioned two ex wives so she could be. That could be a thing that they're that they're finally breaking into this But there's but the way the day button all that stuff up. Is they do it so thoroughly that? They're probably like well. We promised on breaking bad that he has multiple ex wives. So we gotta marry Jimmy and Kim and then we got an unmarried Jimmy. Yeah and that's the part that I'm a little less. I hope that's not. Why if we get there. I don't feel like the show has forced. Sometimes it feels like that. Sometimes he does sometimes you. Here's what I'll say when you go back and rewatch better call Saul one of my big takeaways. Each time every watch a couple of times now. Is You watch season. One and Jimmy and Kim are friendly. They clearly have had a relationship in terms of knowing each other. There's some may be spark there. There's definitely a like what their deal. But it is not super strong. It is certainly not the center of the show at the very beginning of season two. They hard reset it and Jimmy. Straight up ask him. Is this ever going to happen? Is it going to be impacted by my decision whether I'd take this job? Offer from Davis in Maine or not. It is in the first episode of Season. Two that they've placed that relationship front and center in the show and then that becomes a huge thing for both characters throughout obviously and so I don't know at what point they decided to make that thing. It is definitely clearly the thing now such that at this point. I've talked about it in this podcast a lot. I'm positive positive. You can. You can mark this blood on the wall positive that Kim there Ed Kimball show up in the story line. I'm positive that this is going to happen. that is the only I think. She's we see her in red cloud at the start of this episode when she was a kid that is according to usual maps. I believe is how you pronounce Jewish jurist maps. Google map says three hour and four minute drive from Omaha Nebraska where certain gene the cinnabon maker? So you can see you can foresee a world where in a world where Jimmy McGill calls. Where Jeanne calls somebody He calls Robert Forster Robert Forster is offering Jimmy urging the the removal service. The beginning of the season and Jean says you know what I've decided I'm going to handle it myself. You can foresee the world as we've talked about already in this podcast. Where the next call he makes is to Kim and says you know what we really screwed up. We hate each other but I need your help. I'm desperate and then you can also see a world where she has to finally decide whether she's going to help Jimmy Gill or sell him out and turn them in and I think that is at least a question that we could have in the air in if she is in the gene timeline that I think it's interesting right because it will play on their entire pass. It will play on everything that we haven't yet seen from whatever is to come between the two of them and if however it goes south if she loses her law license because of his actions for example unless you blame him for that if she ends up back in red cloud because of him does she become a substance abuser. Does she leaned into the drinking a little more? I don't really know. I don't know where that is going in that regard. Alcoholism is genetic so into the disease. That's genetic disease so this could easily be something That that we see from Kim if go really poorly we probably need some more something stupid style. Time jumps were were periods of months pass in their relationship. We're going to need that. No matter what at some point I do think we could be headed. I think I definitely think we're having legal collapse. We could have a something stupid time jump. I think we could we get married. We could push forward. You know a year or two years down the road and things can become undone per Kim like I think they can Yada. Yada us to a point that is still like emotionally momentum wise connected to the current momentum of the show. Well there's another outcome obviously and even though I said you can write it in blood on the wall. The other outcome also involves blood on the wall. And that's Jimmy's interaction with the Salamanca. Specifically we see in this episode. Mike throughout Is On this plan with Goss. Involving Nacho learning Lilo is up to in. That law has to be stopped. Mike essentially goes undercover as a private detective. Who Will Plant plant evidence and get Lallo in the crosshairs of the police for everything that happened at the Western Union while it's not Western Union? But it's whatever they call. Western Union last season in the episode. Where verner meet his untimely demise a Lalo and when he jumped through jumps through the roof. Yeah it's it's terrible ridiculous and amazing at the same time All of that happens and Lallo reference this season. I think When Juan Bolsa shows up and says hey we don't. We don't do things like that. We don't do this side of the border. Like this is GonNa this is GonNa come back and haunt you and sure enough if you go back and watch that episode you can see. There's a witness who comes up to the window when lawler was in the back looking at the security that you can see a witness kind of knocking at the locked door and she says it's through to panes of glass and sure enough. That's the witness who mike talks to this end zone. Lalo ultimately being stopped in in. I guess taken into custody by the police. Even though multiple police ready to go out shooting had just been the one. So he's going to get arrested. You have. He's going to get arrested with a gun in his exactly. You have to assume Jimmy McGill is going to represent him right. Oh God my brain hadn't even Gagliardi already worked for was a lawyer right. Did the fan for him with regard to Dominguez. Oh yeah and we also know from breaking bad. He is in deeper with Lilo in agnostic. Actions them taken out to the desert with Walter and Jesse so my guess is possible. Gender will represent Lalo but if he represents Lallo four Lallo his representations going to be different than if he represents Lalo for Mike and I think that's the concern I have is. He Represents Lalo for Gus fring and he screws it up in some way on purpose. Mind you he gets Lalo in a position where. Lilo is screwed by his attorney. That puts Jimmy a little more in the Salamanca crosshairs. We know they threatened family. How Realistic Possibility is this for you? If we're headed to a position where Jimmy Represents Lalo but for Mike and gus and not for Lonzo. How realistic of position is where Jimmy could end up in the crosshairs and then Kim could end up in the crosshairs. I be such a terrible way to treat the Kim Wexler character. I think there's been such delicacy to the to the character development that I think that that would be a real schmucky to use a word that they like to use in the writer's Room I real- schmucky way to write out Kim Wexler. I severely hope that that does not play out. I think that the tension of that of Kim being endangered to some degree that like certainly like with with Nacho in his father being like threatened constantly can the threat loom. They're sure I guess to some degree but I just think it's going to be a really a really unsatisfying way to write out. Kim. If they choose to smoke bait way right like they'll they'll us into thinking that it's possible that Jimmy's representing Lonzo Kim's not in breaking bad it's the Schmuck Bait because they're only bidding the people that aren't looking deeper into the fact that it would be really shitty way to ride out the Kim Wexler character and that's not the show as you just observed like though the way they've treated Kim is much more delicately she's as much main character is just about anybody else in the show to treat her like that at that point would really not fair. You mentioned Papa you mentioned Papa. Everybody's Papa as somebody that Nacho brings up and says they have a gun to my father's head Mike says to Nacho. Like we'll talk about it. Is there a possibility that Mike pose a trigger? Good Point yes. Of course yeah sadly yes. Sadly very possible We talked last week about needing more For Mike He'll turn Back to gus. We really didn't get Like we Kinda just got right back in the in the Mike being fully on board with gusts. I don't know if it was enough for me. Certainly very fun to watch him operate on the level that he operated this episode. Kind of always great to see Batman Mike Batman trout is a fine care Batman trout hat half man half trump. Yeah exactly by draw super serial. I'm super cereal guys. I just don't know if I got enough of that. But like the Mike I mean I still even think the Mike of Breaking Bad. He's not just going to kill Nachos Dad guy so I'll I'll dial it back. I don't think that the Mike who dies in breaking bad you know by the by the stream has like pa-papa's death on his hands like I did have we have. We seen anything to that level of severity from Mike across either of the shows. I really don't think so like the closest to an innocent was burner and burner had agency in signing on for an illicit operation and even in breaking bad. When people are in the game he does not want them the thirteen dealers or whatever he wants them paid he does not want them taken off. The board like they ultimately are In a very godfather one Kind of moment knows no christening of sons going on Is able to do something like these guys. Is he able to able to turn Nacho into like one of his able to do something that is such a solid for Nacho and Papa and get spring to be like on board with that and to realize the other way we can do this rather than just killing papa is to like turn Nacho to our cause like as their way for him to do that? That doesn't involve killing dad like is that a way that like Mike can eventually feel better about being part of the gusset bring operations. The PS like feeling like he's being listened to to answer. I think so I do think so. I also think it's possible. He could go behind us back. And just help Nacho Papa abscond at once he gets what he needs to out of the Salamanca's and once they've got them under their thumb and once frank is the only game in town in that regard or the main game in town in that way and Mike has helped him. Cement that Maybe Mike just helps Nacho in Papa abscond and that is the end for Nacho is that he gets away and he gets away with the help of Mike such that the Mike we meet him breaking bad who wants to help Jesse. That has a soft spot. A little bit or the Mike won't let those guys get taken off the board even though it is the right thing to do from a quote unquote business standpoint So that they can't flip on you. Maybe that's the Mike who helps. Nacho abscond maybe that's his price that he extracts for what happened with Verner So have all these things are at least possible. I don't think it's as clear as you know thinking that we agree that they're not going to take him off the board with violence in that way. I don't think it's as clear. What will happen with Mike? And NACHO? I think it's still more especially. Because nacho seemingly is still a factor in better call solved the episode right. The least. Jimmy's guilty at least in mind. So whatever happens with Nacho if Mike does take them off the board if he doesn't help some abscond if he doesn't if he's working for gossip he's not Jimmy. As far as Jimmy's concerned he both he and Lallo are still possible. Revenge characters here. It doesn't necessarily mean they're still alive just means. As far as Jimmy's concerned they may still be alive. So yeah I don't td on everything With with Mike because I think it's less likely you really activated something when you mentioned Jimmy representing Wallo at that feels so obvious and it just wasn't really even on my mind. What was on my mind is Lolo going to jail? You know. Could theoretically vault US forward could provide a way to vault US FORWARD IN TIME. Line to deal with the low and Nacho problem with with gusts feels like. It's gotTa hit a boiling point here pretty soon because gus is only going to be able to suffer these losses for so long and we know that gus is still going to be like the guy in the game by the time that breaking bad rolls around which is what like four ish years in the future from where we are better call. Saul so lawless. Spending some time in jail would help ease our path towards that if we're already talking about a possible universe where like Jimmy and Kim. Are you going to get married? And we get to like live with that for a couple of years. So that's where my head was at and maybe there's a version of that. Jimmy is also representing Wallo and he gets Lalla like better a better sense than he would get like. There's no way lower just gets off now and I just the reason I think that that he will represent Lallo from Mike and not for Lonzo is just had. Even though we didn't need it we had that little phone call where Jimmy Calls Mike with Kim and Mike is reminded of the fact or he is in framed of the fact that Jimmy is a lawyer again. I and that little fact that little that little notion it may be enough we could also be in a situation by the way where Mike Asks. Mike S. Jimmy to represent Lilo and Jimmy's well. You know little thing about that. I've already worked for the guy like I already. I've already worked for him. It's going to really blow up if if he if I represent him again. It doesn't go right. He's going to know because I'm already kind of under his thumb a little bit but I know another lawyer. She's my fiancee now and she can help you out with this. So there's always a possibility that Kim gets involved in this somehow. It Jimmy drags came into if we're circling the drain as I've said And even though you said it's a car crash slow-motion I think both metaphors really work for this show but if we are circling the drain and Jimmy and Kim just linked together Like you know the two things that are pulled into the same force then. I don't know how we can separate the two so easily. If something like this were to happen. I don't think Jimmy would put Kim in the crosshairs like this. It's at least possible. And so I that's I I don't. I don't think it's likely but I think it's something that I think about. When I think about who's representing Lilo and for whom and how Jimmy will be a very interesting one to represent because Lalo would accept him as a lawyer. Lalla would say like. Oh yeah this is the lawyer. This is the guy I used. This is the guy that's without knowing that you know. He knew Mike before he knew. Lalo so we could absolutely see where that goes in. That could be trouble Certainly not a bad episode from Mr Aker. Though Joshi's seems to get everything he wants even though we don't see him on the deal. What's the deal? What does he wind up with? He wants he's GonNa get a is He. He's going to get seventy thousand. Something forty five thousand. At least I can't remember the the spit handshake between Kevin and Jimmy got. Somebody is keeping his house to call centers go into the other site. He's getting a public apology. Big Win for Mr Aker. Big Big Win Big Win for Mr Accurate. But that's not why. Jimmy does it. Jimmy Jimmy wants the PR right. Like he gets the big win for actor but he brings the photographer into it to. We're going to get credit for the photographer as well. We're going to. We're going to do that without settling like. You're gonNA give the photographer some cash for the photo. And you're GONNA you're going to credit that person and this is all because like Jimmy loves to screw the man and now it's also with the side benefit of Jimmy's getting further forward momentum outfit. This is to tie this together. Just start getting into this side of the conversation to like the screwing. The man piece is why he is. That's what he told Howard screwing the man. Ps You know this is why he he sends the ladies of the night to go talk to how e which is such an unbelievable terrible scene in a great way. A there's just like there's a guy like Howard Hamlin who is like an alien you know who is who is like such an alien on his best day is just like but like very deeply human internally but like is so uncomfortable in like the day to day life. I think like he's he's very like palpably like uncomfortable in his skin his existence. There's just no way for him. To like artfully deftly. Maneuver his way out of this. Incredibly these incredibly bad optics of going to like his favorite restaurant with the Dover Sole Lunch Special And having these two ladies cost him and call him how he and no details about him because they've been bringing host mad real mad and And it's an Jimmy's only doing it because he just wants to like. Further Duncan Howard. He Yellen because he's the man and he wants to screw the exact feedback from Alexander Chester Chester said. I know we're supposed to root for Jimmy or are we and Howard is mostly a comical character for us to dunk on but I need to take offense to how geometry towered and now you guys discuss on the pod but Howard. Not a fundamentally bad person. He was born with a silver spoon. Mouth but for the most part he seems well intentioned and Jimmy humiliates him and abuses him unfairly. Obviously Jimmy is the bad guy with how he treats Kim but in a sense I feel even worse for Howard because we're supposed to laugh at him and I feel the same way. I texted you as soon as the episode ended and I watched the episode. And I you know everything with Kim Shore. She in the way that Mike says to Nacho you got in this with both eyes open. Kim knew what she was getting into with Jimmy mcgeough and she continues to know but Howard was just trying to be nice to the guy and he felt bad for how he treated him and he was trying to make amends. He does not deserve. This does not deserve this justice for Hassles for Howie from one Howard to another. I am scandalised by all. It's funny because like I said. We didn't just get feedback from from Chester Brennan Fitzpatrick Road and he said seriously Jimmy and I saw opening my phone. I see the first line or whatever and I see why is Jimmy trying so hard and the email says to get Howard to hate him or push whatever. It feels so unearned. I know we're supposed to Jimmy. And his turning into Saul but this is just so mean and sad. It's just really icky but it sadly it's not unearned right like Jimmy's good hate on Howard for variance. The first episode in deeply earn fucking in term in terms of Jimmy's character it's earned Does Howard deserve it as a questions? Fair question I I would say no I would say no I would say much like rich. Schweiker I think that Howard Hamlin is a better guy than maybe you would expect them to be and asked the question that we had been batting around. Recently of like. How much does how we suspect that? Jimmy is the Bowling Ball. Barron probably suspect a lot more now. I think add a certain point. He's got a suspect like this. If it if it if it quacks like Jimmy McGill if it flies like a Jimmy McGill. It's probably a Jimmy McGill and this wins the Jimmy McGovern and is he. He's getting good. Foaming watch shame on you. Fool me twice. He can't fuller can't be fooled again. There's a saying in Texas. I don't know if they have it in Tennessee. But they have it in Texas Yeah I that. He's in a position where he should know by. Now what's going on here and it probably should come as no surprise to him. He's sitting there with cliff main Person who understands what it's like to work for a Mr Bean bags manakin. That is who it is and and he knows even In a in a in a sort of a a nod to what this is going to be like for how we now. They're making the jokes behind the judges back from two tables over about his twenty one year old assistant and his briefs his one and all of that imagine the kind of talk that will be going on now about poor Howie ladies. I don't not go. What does he say. I don't know of Joe Dog. I don't know a tugboat. I believe I believe Howard. Hamlin never leaves his home unless it's for worker Dover sole like I believe that there are no other reasons that Howard and yet but that's were at all the good point that's a good point. He doesn't work I think he would go for Dover sole even if it wasn't for a lunch meeting I think he just loves the Dover sole but I think that's the only extracurricular he has told me why don't expect he has any other extracurriculars that isn't born from likes the white motown cover band from Delaware Dover sole you don't want to know what that is Jimmy McGill. Xactly don't urban dictionary so I bent over so sense that like that. You know that Howard doesn't have like relationships outside work so this whole thing is probably just like such a massive disaster. Is He a sexual in Howard? Hamlin doesn't strike me as I mean we've got the hose and the picture I don't it doesn't seem like he has any romantic interest in any way. We don't sense that it all about him. He seems so part of his life as far as he's been painted he's a career woman so I feel like he's I think we've talked about this to a degree that there is this feeling that I have anyway about Howard Hamlin that he's like a man child key is speaking of like you. Don't shake things from your childhood necessarily unless you really work through them as your as your in the process of growing up you know just because you grow literally into being a legal adult who is in your forties or fifties or however old Howard. Hamlin is at this point. A thirty seven doesn't meet attempt thirty-three doesn't mean that like your bullshit from when you were eight isn't still a humongous part of your life. And the fact that like he has his job virtually by his own. Admission THROUGH NEPOTISM. Right like that like he got it because his dad was the first hamlet and he got you know you know. He kissed the ring and now he's part of the part of the deal. He's not like a great lawyer and he's like a decent businessman but that's because like all of his life has probably been dedicated to feeling worthy of this great thing that he inherited right so there are ways in which Howard Hamlin feels very childish. Like not that. He necessarily like behaves childishly. Immature Li like to Jimmy. But like there are times. I feel bad for him where he's like when he's like wrestling with the anxiety and guilt that he feels over. What happened to Chuck? Like I think that there's a real young quality to like the pain. He's in in that moment. Like a real like a really like like a kid who is wrong and wasn't like hugged enough wasn't like told like goat. You're going to grow up to be a strong person. You're going to grow up to like be in the world and this is how you're going to do it like somebody who wasn't parented as what. Howard Hampton reminds me of it. I mean. He's a very sad character. I have a very soft spot in my heart for Howard Hamlin and so when you see him in a moment like this it's not even just like that he's like not a sexual being. It's like sometimes you just like feels like a kid. Feels like he wake. Is Tom Hanks from big? He's been trying to keep that secret for a long time. I hope nobody finds out that I'm secretly. So sometimes he has that quality about has got to be. I'm not going to say what I was. GonNa say but it was GonNa make a Dick Joke but the thing is when you grow up when you're a little boy and you grow up and you are the second Hamlin in Ham on Hammond. Miguel your your fiefdom Your everything the light touches yours is is that your birthright. It's put in front of you from the jump A. You have no choice but to be the second Hamlin and Hamlin Hamilton McGill. And we know this is something at. Howard carries along with him. He has said it to in many ways. I admire you. I wish I could do that. But such is life like he basically says like I was born in. This was my lot in life and this is what I had to do. I had to be the secondhand one that was me. This is my thing so in that world. His professional reputation is everything that is all he has. That is what he trades on his identity. As I think you hilariously put it is just work and eat the Dover sole that's it that's it because it's you know it's really terrible because like it's it's it's you call this type of thing it's a hit job it's character assassination but like even the way that it's framed in this where you know. Howard is just trying to enjoy his dover sole when the two ladies show up and start like wrecking his life very publicly attacking this thing that you're talking about being like the beating heart of Howard Hamlin his as professional reputation and there's Jimmy in the car watching through binocular creep like watching through the sniper. Just HAPPENED TO HIT HEAD. He's he's killing. Howard Hamlin right now. It's disgusting. It's one of the reasons why it's disgusting on one of the reasons why This show is so affecting because it simultaneously really funny it simultaneously like well presented in a way where you can't help it like dog and tugboat. That's not knocking look. You can't help but laugh at the scene but then like you do take this step back and she just got this like brain matter on the table like that's like he shot from Denver Arts. Exactly you've got some how we knew. So that's the secret sauce of this show and it's a I I really really love better call saw and I often do think that it is know the some is is better than the than the parts like I like. The grand fabric of better call. Saul is often better than the individual components but this is an example of individual components really working in harmony together with an episode that that we talked about even the other week that scene with Kim and Jimmy making fun of Kevin and like doing impressions and how that scene is both really really funny but also really really dark. This is another really great example of that and a big piece of this magic trick of why Better Call Saul as successful as it is is. It's these writers are just able and not just the writers. But the filmmakers the actors the editors like everybody who's involved in how this show gets crafted are really weaving together a tone. That is so hard to ace. And somehow they're able to do it somehow. They're able to come up with a scene. That is both hilarious but gutting at the same time. It's it's really. It's really impressed. Embrace bed walk that high wire as well exactly sometimes in the same episode. You'd have the most horrible things you could think of or the most undue stress and just hilarious moments like Yeah Bitch like our magnet cer- robots or whatever it was like had those moments of comic relief moments. Were both of those things. That's the brilliant. I think you're right in this particular scene with Howard and there are people that probably don't read it in the same sort of violation way that are just like. Oh it's great. I love it when Jim. Getting Howard's go that guys a dick you're such a punishable face. Whatever and I think there are people that could probably watch it and feel that way but I think it's very telling that we get the feedback. We got About this episode with regard to Howard Brenna Fitzpatrick actually said Fizi wants to see Howard hit back in some way before the end of the season. That would be great. I love that. Say Not for nothing. I in terms of I think it speaks to your point. About how routine Howard's life is but not for nothing Both of these instances the bowling balls and the the hose mad prank Both of them come from just nothing. Jimmy is just in a moment decide. You know what let's go fuck with our today When in he goes to carry he talks to Mr Acker. For THE FIRST TIME HE GETS MR acker to agree And then getting back in his car he sort of ponders for second. And that's when he goes and buys the bowling bowls he doesn't even know. He wants the Bowling. Ball's he thinks. I'm just gonNA throw something over the fence. Howard House break his car. That's what he's thinking. He has no plan. He checks his watch and see if he has enough time to do it and he does it. And in this particular instance we see him leaving court with the aforementioned hose They get out into the hallway. They're offering to take care of him. He Says No. Hey don't go right back to work. And then all of a sudden inspiration strikes and he has to run down the hall so he is putting very little thought into the The implications of all this. Or whether it's right to do it or not. It's just you know what I feel like screwing with Howard. I'M GONNA go do it. And that's I think the worst part for me is this is not like the contemplated act of somebody who's really weighing. What Karmic Wait Howard? Hamlin has deserved to fall down upon his head for all the years that he did the bidding of chalk and kept Jimmy under his thumb He has just thinking on a whim today. Today's the day. I'M GONNA go screw with Howard. Here's how I'm going to do it. I'm going to have these show up and I'm going to watch and I'M GONNA laugh with the kill shot as it's being delivered so not for nothing. I think that speaks to how how how not serious. Jimmy treats this whole. It's just a caper for him. And it's not even a caper. The EH suspended tea time with. They do spend a Lotta time you mention the sum of the parts. We have another montage in this episode. Which is nothing but not a some parts. These montages a very funny one And I think we're getting to see Bob. Boden Bob Odenkirk in his most. Mister show formed here as director of these commercials and really probably seeing a lot of Improv. I would guess with Bob Odenkirk and these community theater actors that you enjoy this montage or were there any particular parts of it. That really stood out to you. I love the mystery show quality. I love like the Tim and Eric of it all And that's something that's a holdover from breaking bad as well I think once they brought Bob Odenkirk into the into the menagerie of cantors back of it all but it's it's another great example of how this universe does such a great job of like both like cracking you up but then like you're you're like simultaneously you're like this is hysterical. This is ridiculous. The things that they are saying ridiculous the presentation style of Jimmy over and over and over again going through the Green curtains. And just like breaking through like you say the Lo fi quality but then like you take a minute and the episode will often do it for you and in this case it did where like it'll be coming back to Kim and it's the power of racy Horn just being such a tremendous talent that it's all over her face the horror the horror of. What's happening that this isn't funny. There's nothing funny about this. There is also about it. Does that is the contrast constant contract But I love this montage and I liked watching like the setup of it like the montage of like all the bits of it when you don't know what it's going to be yet sometimes. That's not always very effective on this show for me. In this case it was where like you see all the actors filming their stuff out of context and then you get to see what it was. They were making often like an example of of one. That doesn't work so well for me is. The bowling ball is having that cold open bull in a China shop and he's just like touching all this different stuff and it's clearly to figure out what's going to cause the most harm to Howard Hamlin's car ends up being fodder for the bowling ball scene later on. That doesn't really pay off so well so whatever it is. You're setting up their better. Land with via th- authority of a bowling ball against a car and I thought that maybe ironically that example didn't work out but here did hear it really really did getting to see like the mister show sequence was very well and not just seeing the mister show sequence but seeing an actual actor who is so heavily involved in the DNA of Mister show. Jay Johnston Somebody who is in some of the very best mister show sketches if not watch Mr Show. I think it's on. Hbo Right now. Maybe it has been an air to recently and then I know there's David reliable right. You can see a lot of sketches on youtube but you have probably seen or heard Jay. Johnston other maladies sores. The song they sang on Mister show once upon a time was a regular part of my childhood as a song that would pop into my head. Freia there's some. I definitely have my favorite sketches as well but the I believe one of the lyrics was losing. A child really hurts. It's like a mouthful of source. And that's no fun. I would just like play on a loop in my head for very long time. I don't think that that's exactly right. But that's how it always played in my head. Maybe you've been here worms as well Jay. Johnston is also known to some as a cop on arrested development. Johnny desilva wrote in and said to be sound like Tombo debt from Motel six Andrew. You wrote in and said Did we see him as a cop on arrested development? You might know him as the Voice of Jimmy stow on Bob's Burgers Jimmy Pesto is across the street there at all times so Jay Johnson really fun to see him. I think hard not to laugh at the original Mesa Verde commercial but really hard not to laugh as you said even though it is that secret sauce Where it's the laugh and painted the same time really hard not to laugh at his repeated. Yup as it's edited into the commercial I also really just like seeing in this particular instance. You saying you're not sure how it would come together. We don't get the community theater actors shooting their scenes and not being sure how that will come together. We have the first scene with the film crew who they just love leaning into the student film crew and using them as much as they can and the show we have makeup guy care makeup girl camera guy and the Sound Guy. I think in the Camera Guy Schlep Bergh Now his his other nickname and I love his like wanted when His Very Hollywood or very director. Oriel attitude that he has. The camera is an extension of his body. Jimmy remarks to Kim at one point I really like the attitude is my favorite. One is the makeup girl though she has the most humanity about her and I really liked her performance. The one who's the real asked the other. She went essiet screen earlier in the season where she was like the yard with a blowout with the update is great. She also remember her like when they had the horrible moment with the sklar brothers. They were refusing to pay on. Jimmy was clearly at the Lowest Ebb. Trying to sell commercial time before it aired or eat the money They had such paltry daily some for whatever money they'd made and she tried to give her Jimmy Just there's a lot of humanity in her I think and I think there's more nuance in her and her performance than the other two so I always look to see what she's getting into and she here was playing the bank victim. Who had been around black mold? I think it was itching up and down so I I just I. I did not know when they originally saying that they needed a certain style of the original commercial. A certain look. I thought they were going to the point. Where like they were going to do. Some ads from the past. Because of course we have this intellectual property through line With the photograph and the photographer. I thought we were doing that and I was like. There's no way they could pass off some old commercial and pretend that it's old like there cannot pull this off of no. It was just that they wanted to do exactly what we ultimately saw which was really really fun. Man Get episode. This is a good episode and you had said recently that our best Raya seahorn scenes were probably still ahead of us and I think that like we got some of that stuff probably here but I think that the statement still holds. It's brutal to watch. What's happening with Cam Right now? And she's she's she's she's very human character she's one of the she's one of the most. She's such a human. You know where she somebody who you want. You want her to make better choices than she makes. You know that she's remarkably talented. That she's very smart that she works so hard that she wants the right things but she's like any of us. We all have a hot stove. We can't stop touching. You know whatever that is for you you've got it. You're listening to me right now. You know it and now you feel really awkward because you're thinking about your story. People are actually touching a hot stove. You know like we all have our hot stove like that doesn't make you a terrible person because you touch it makes you a human being. You know it's it's it's your cross that you have to bear sadly we all have them sadly we all have like that that button that has like in very clear bold text emblazoned on it do not press but you press it anyway And we're watching. Kim. Push the button and it sucks. But it's very very very real and I think it's it's very telling who you are for for where you are with Kim. As a character better call Saul is a show that like really Sits in your. Jimmy's you know really. If you really just can't macgill's you know I think where you're standing on Kim. Wexler today is is pretty telling about how this show interact with you. I think for for me I am Mad Kim. I feel very sad for her and I fully understand where she's coming from like the more we talk it through and I hate it but I don't think that it's earned. I think it's tragically pretty. Fiercely earned probably more so by the acting than the writing but certainly by the writing as well and I want so much more for Jimmy. I want him to be so much better than he's being right. Now he's being such a turt- he's like king turned right now and we know that. That's not could've stop anytime soon. And it's heartbreaking And so this show could be both like very very funny. And very very heartbreaking at the same time and when it's when it's on that tight wire and you're not sure that it's going to be able to handle you know. Walking from one end to the other is is when the show is at its best and I think where we are midseason a little bit past midseason now on season five for this show. That much like breaking bad. Breaking bad was a show that really improved as it went along. Better call saw you say the same thing or at least I feel that way and the season for the most part with a couple of Mrs here and there For the most part is continuing that same level of momentum it just also sadly that spells if not like literal physical doom for these characters Certainly not great. Bob Definitely not great Bob because the portends are poor as we as you're saying And where we end up breaking bad It is a crutch or it is something that they have used back them in a lot of respects that they can bring these characters in but it is also there painted into some corners and it is delicate how there are painting around them or painting through them. That is certainly the task that they had to undertake when they decided to make it a prequel. They had to say themselves. Like how are we going to handle this? We're in the end game now. So we're starting to see where the lines are going to be more clearly drawn on this. I still think we're going to get another gene. Seen by the end of this season I could have gone but I do think that whenever we do get gene again. We're going to have some greater inkling that Kim is going to be involved and we're gonNA look at his. Kansas city royals launch box from season. Three in the gene seen are GONNA say. Oh my God it was there all along because it was on because Jimmy and Kim once they press the reset button on this at the beginning of season two has been the story of this show. I have always thought as I said That the best Kim Wexler moments are ahead. I'm not sure that we've not seen the best. Bob odenkirk moments vis-a-vis his scenes with his brother with chuck. It was such a big part of his story. But the story is Jimmy and Kim and even the story with Chuck I. It is at this point just informing the way the two of them relate in the things that have happened to the two of them because we left that story behind at the end of season three. So here we are now nearing the end of season. Five I and we're dealing with everything That all the characters have experienced in their lives up to this point all of their baggage all of their hot stove as you're saying In what they can and can't keep touching and for Jimmy. It is the action. It's the play. It is the ability to get one over on somebody because he always wanted to get one over on his brother and his brother was constantly putting him in his place and so he can't just help when there's somebody who feels like they know better or who is in a position of superiority. Likey told that poor girl after the scholarship meeting last season. Like the what we're GONNA DO IS BE H. We're going to have back harder like you're going to prove to them that you're worth something. Every one of these actions is a big middle finger to chuck so chuck does loom large but he looms large over relationship with Kim and Jimmy that is occurring in the present time I in May occur in the future. And that's something that just like him in her relationship with her mother he cannot leave behind And so it is his hot stove in that way as well And it will be fascinating to see how all of that toxicity hall of that Negative Energy and all these characters in their own orbits orbiting each other individually cascades and collides To the point that we're going to see whatever happens on fallout something to chew on is in about some but something that you on cinnabon and I would like to. I'd like for you to eat the cinnabon in the following way. I would like for you to consider the possible. Better Call Saul Future where we've got episode seven eight nine and ten of season five still here right right in those four episodes. Can we resolve enough action that we can vault into a full final season of the gene machine for the final season of saw? A place right now with where. Lallo is at where Jimmy and Kim's relationship is at that we may be able to go and spend not just a series finale in the gene timeline. Not just like another like final scene. This season not just like another cold open next season. And then a finale heavily devoted to gene you know three more spots with gene. Could we be in a place where we could vault that far forward? I think I'm GonNa give you half a loaf answer and say the only thing I I then I'm just going to close half answer then What I would say is I think where the we have that material to mind. Do we have enough for a whole season. I don't know what I do know is if you wanted to say you're going to mix that with more scenes from the breaking bad timeline. So we're going to sort of slip in and out of time. We're going to see some scenes from like we already did. We already jumped into the breaking bad time. Line with Sol An Francesca Shredding papers in a previous season Jimmy setting up as you. I think your equalize have observed Francesca to call a specific person at a specific time. If Jimmy wasn't there and how that could relate to Howard Hamlin If you leave Jimmy and Howard on bad terms at the end of this season let's say and you wrap that story. I still think we could get another senior to from the breaking bad time line. Were they run into each other in town or the access of the hatchet is buried such that? It makes sense that Jimmy would tell. Francesca call so I think we could. We could do gene and we could do scenes from the breaking bad time line. I don't know that we can do all gene. I think there's still a lot of especially if we're going to do a Jimmy are together and then they're an apart- thing. I don't that we do all that. In three episodes we could. We could but I think it. It makes a lot more sense if you've got the thirteen next season to do what you're going to do with some breaking bad time line type stuff in that in that scene in that season so. I think we're more likely we'LL HAVE. We'll have more of that content as well then a full season Jean. Yeah but there's just there's there's there's much much chicanery ensuing here on. Better Call Saul Magna Carta one year. Different one even here yeah much Tinari. Chuck's shadow hangs overall But we will. We will certainly be here to talk about episodes as they occur in this season. How many have left? We've got four left on the Board. Seven eight nine ten tease. For what next episode might be called in this season? Yeah you're ready here see if you can figure it out by this clue. Jim From Jim is the name of the sorry. It's J. initials that Kim put on the briefcase Jetty Jim. We're going to the gym going for a workout. Justice matters most but what else could it possibly stand for in the context seven? Is there an I? F T equivalent to me. I don't WanNa go there. Yeah I don't know that's a good question. That's a good question Judge there was a judge in this episode Things I don't know what the M M could be though Judge Making Baby. This is an idea. What if it's just Michael Mando Episode Episode Peach apartment the whole time? Yeah it's just it's just Michael Mando. It is a solo not jokes about y'all just the one show so we'll see see. I'M GONNA put my money on jam and being retired man. That'll be our last episode of any podcast because we'll be rolling in money at that. Maybe the Amsterdam mail boy which Mike was at the police station harassing the mail boy. By the way not for nothing make no sense to me. Like the male boy's GONNA know everybody in the police station and he's just going just going to listen to Mike this guy he doesn't know. I just might have just dropped the filing basket and been done with that. That how Batman show trout Operates in half man half trout. I'M SUPER CEREAL SUPER serial. All right how can people get in touch with the feedback? All right well. There are ways. Certainly you can you can tweet it myself. Matt Round Howard like Ron Howard. Hamlin but rounder. Antonio they can find you as well I believe. How did they find you? What is the? What is the way to do so? It's just occurred to me. That Howard is a Ho- Ward H. O. W. A. R. D. Wow Okay but that doesn't tell us how you can tweet me at a C. Massaro Tuesdays and one are. You can email us your feedback. Bcs At post show RECAPS DOT com. You can subscribe to. Uh however you get your podcast. Ratings and reviews greatly appreciated. And of course you subscribe to our sal- specific fee. But we also have a ton going on and push a recap. We've just wrapped our curb your enthusiasm coverage here myself Arab sister Nino keep a winokur. We've just wrapped that up so no more curb but that was a really fun. Ride walking dead is looking towards the end of the line a little bit earlier than expected. Amc UNABLE TO FINISH POST production on the walking into reality shows. Now know I'll be. I'll be sad to lose a week earlier than than we were expecting Jessen. I've been having a lot of fun talking about walking dead and I actually do think. Walking dead has been really really fun this season. I hope it. There's no post production woes for the late stages better call Saul notice forever. They were certainly would hope so. They were recording the better call. Saul insider podcast like literally almost like months and months and months ago when they were doing post on on these episodes. So it's such a thing happened to Antonio and I will come onto the podcast and we will enact our better call Saul Justa. We'll just we'll we'll call rich Filiberto and we'll roll play it out Speaking of whom the Great Filly here on the Internet was joining. Mike Blum in myself over on the down. Down the hatch podcast. Recently we did another. Rpg episode of our lost podcasts. Were Mike and I played the part of Billy Wallace at Rodney. Sesto to background survivors from the crash of oceanic flight. Eight fifteen and chicanery did ensue. It was weird and murderers in this. Now good stuff. It's it got really really really weird. We did very bad things and I now. Actively rooting for our characters at this point are characters. Are you play? You gotta stick with it man. You can't just be doing the GM. I if if we have to reenact we'll get mic on here You can be Jimmy. I'll be Kim and Mike can be gus. Okay Sounds Fun. We also west row podcast. Interior your favorite show. Westworld podcasting about bad Joe Garfield and I are having a lot of fun. Really love talking to Joe every week. And we're having a good time and every once in a while we're having bonus podcasts in the Westworld beat including one that we did last week. Antonio with great robot scientist himself Christian cubic me that his favorite show on. Tv right now is none other than bedroll salt. Hopefully so hopefully he's listening as well But I I assumed it would be all right with you. Extended the invitation. If you'd like to join us to talk some solid at the end of the season I think that would be great. The more than all right with me. That would be true us. I'll knock on his door and see what we can do. And if you're listening to this knock on Christian storage something you'd like to hear That don't get him in trouble. Listen He's going to save us all with the program some robot. That's GONNA protect us. I Trust Christian with my life so robots matter most Mike and jess are wrapping up star. Trek Picard probably pretty soon here. I'm so far behind. I hear it's good. I'm really far behind. I still here. There's pizza and I still haven't indulged in any of the pizza service. I guess it's out there out there and we're top shopping here at the top of the chef We will be talking about top chef episodes recording the weekend after they air up in your feeds Sometime hopefully late that weekend or early the beginning of the next week they are on Thursday nights. So if you're a top chef and you weren't aware Myself Josh. Joshua's lovely wife Emily Fox. Who is the expert on the panel of the Great Haley? Strong Great Kurt Clark and Mike Bloom. It was also great. Who is also? We will have a rotating panel where we poked podcast over at reality. Tv raps about top chef. A great season of top chef. All Stars really really stacked a talent in that cast for top chef. So if you're a fan of that show a. Hopefully you're watching that season and check out our podcast. Antonio what's The podcast you and I are doing in your dreams. Right now turned to speak this into reality. I woke up the morning. And I with the idea that we had recorded a podcast called characters and it was just about character actors And they're famous that they done. In the first episode we recorded was about M C gainey. mister friendly from lost but I specifically remember talking about the scene from sideways. Where you see his junk. Oh Wow I don't remember sideways well enough to remember seeing MC gaining nearly end of the film And it's pork edible. I remember him as the security expert. In Club dredd various showed up. I was watching you just after the one apple high. That knows how to I was re watching. Bosch which is a show. I actually really like From Amazon and he's randomly showed up and Bausch and I thought MC gainey getting paid. I love it And so I don't know why but I dreamt that we had recorded a podcast called characters now where we talk about character actors. We also talked about The character the actor who plays Don Phoenicia in Godfather to Who must have been a character actor? Sure one of my favorites so I don't know why those are the two. We talked about But if I dream anymore by any podcasts I'll let you know all right. Just give us a recap of what happens in characters the dream podcast that only existed. Antonio's dreams now maybe in your dreams dear listener as well. That's my idea anybody. Yeah don't know God you can even be. We're going to do it if you any of you out there still that idea. We're coming for YA. We're we're we're so so that's not the kind you sure you know figure. I know all right you WANNA wrap us. What do you WanNa you can now? Everybody can pack your knives and go no. That's not what we say. What do we say? We don't say a thing around here doing pack your GM briefcase. We don't say that Joe Dot we'll be back next talk better call. Saul here Po. Show recap thanks for. Listen everybody thank you wash your hands.

Mike S. Jimmy Lonzo Kim Jimmy McGill jimmy Saul Kim Wexler Duncan Howard Mike Jimmy Jimmy Esau Jimmy Gill Nacho Papa Chuck McGill Howard Hamlin Kidman Goodman Jimmy Street Howard Jimmy Macgill Lalo Jimmy McGovern Wexler Jimmy mcgeough
Rhea Seehorn - 'Better Call Saul'

Awards Chatter

1:36:36 hr | 1 year ago

Rhea Seehorn - 'Better Call Saul'

"Yeah. Hi everyone. And thank you for tuning into the two hundred eighty seventh episode of awards chatter, the Hollywood reporter's awards podcast, which is brought to you by lifetime lifetimes groundbreaking documentary series surviving R Kelly captivated audiences, and spark global conversation for the first time ever survivors, and people from our Kelly's inner circle shared their full story. Lifetime, thanks to survivors for coming forward. Surviving are telly for your consideration. I'm the host of awards chatter. Scott Feinberg am. I guess today is strikingly beautiful and enormously talented actress best known for her work on TV over the past twenty years. She has appeared on series such as ABC's, I'm with her NBC's Whitney and TNT's Franklin and bash, but she is best known and prime to land her first EMMY nomination for her portrayal of Kim Wexler. A lawyer, who has a complicated relationship with Bob kirks, Jimmy McGill, aka saw Goodman, on AMC's break. Bad prequel better. Call Saul racy horn over the course of our conversation at the offices of the Hollywood reporter, the forty seven year old than I discussed Evelyn from a character actress to a leading lady with a character actresses approach, what she learned from the various short lived TV series that preceded better. Call Saul how she landed the part of Kim on that Vince, Gilligan and Peter goal drama series and came to play the character of the way, she does never better than on its most recently aired season. It's fourth what she suspects the future holds for Kim. Who unlike Jimmy Mike or several other better call Saul characters is never seen or referenced on breaking bad, plus much more. So without further ado, let's go to that conversation. Breath. Thanks so much for joining us to have you. We always begin with just a few basics on this podcast. Where were you born and raised in what did your folks do for a living? Oh, interesting. Okay. Norfolk virginia. That was not the question expecting. And I have listened to your Norfolk Virginia. And my mom did many, many jobs with the government Norfolk's big naval base. And we moved around a lot with my mom working on several bases in different capacities. But my dad we were civilian, but my dad was an agent for counter intelligence stuff. So we moved for that reason. And I asked national and toll, what's national naval intelligence, and I think that's changed to someone out there will correct me. I'm sure I, I wanna say the acronym now stands for naval investigative but, but at the time it was intelligence. So you're moving around throughout your childhood. How do you think that affects a kid? I think you learn to adapt pretty quickly. I'm sure there's all sorts of studies that having to change schools in change, friends, and all of that, that often I didn't move every three years, like many people that have to for the government to we. Moved every three years for a while. And then it's and then we came back to Virginia Beach, and then we're there for a long time. But that being said, I would guess that the pros and cons, probably end up being awash as far as like if you stayed in one school in one town K through twelve there's gotta be pros and cons to that. And likewise, moving around. Yeah. You learn how to adapt. It's very possible that it's part of what I do for a living that ability to just figure out how to read a room and blend. What's your cognitive Lille? Yeah. Blend in or stand now pending on the circumstance. Yeah. So people might assume because of your professional, you were one of these, you know, theater kids that new from, as far back as you can remember that. This is what you wanted to do. My sense from prepping for this. That was not the case, it was sort of a different form of the arts. So what was the yes, our did fine arts for a long time? I still do it just for myself, but I don't do it for living or try to do it for living anymore. Sort of family thing. My father, my mother and father are both my father wise. He's passed away. My mother still they're fantastic storytellers and very, very funny people and very smart people. So that was always going on in the house that kind of performance plus being from the south, my mom, Maryland. My dad Tennessee like seven hours on a porch. Do some good storytelling. But in addition to that, yes, my father, also painted and drew charcoal drawings, a lot that he learned from his mother, my grandmother and far back as I can remember both my sister, and I. Were sort of given that taught that and encouraged to do that drawing and sketching as a with a self soothe it was very much something that you did alone and didn't need an audience for an that's a great thing. And it turns out to still be a great thing with, with my current profession to just I think, to have the ability, whatever it is that somebody wants to do as a hobby to, to have the ability to self soothe and to process, things alone, without a need for a committee's approval or to be over stimulated, I mean, it is stimulating doing art, but it's meditative is very meditative, the hand eye coordination, and I still am attracted to when I'm trying to learn lines. And then when I'm really trying to sometimes I refer to, as like cracking scene. It's the it's the math of the I can't there's a million ways to play it. But if I can't find my way in yet, I'll go over and over a night tend to gravitate towards. Doing activities that are very Masada hand eye coordination when I'm trying to figure it out. Yeah, we'll all the way through high school, then we're talking no acting classes. No school plays. None of the stuff that people might assume now. So now you go off to George Mason University. What happened there that changed that? I was doing a BA in fine arts there and you had to take another elective. That's not what your major is. And I wanted to eits secretly. I was obsessed with television and film. Particularly older stuff, because when I was growing up Nick at Nite was not children's programming at all. It was all black and white on older television shows and. Oh, yeah, I thought I thought be Arthur hung the moon, as far as I'm concerned, I was obsessed with Maude and. Anything with Madeline Kahn and it. Watching older Saturday night lives. Gilda Radner and Jane curtain in Lorraine Newman, and then also watching a lot of foreign films and French films. And I had I was so in love with it. And there was there was definitely when I look back on it this part of me that wanted to be a part of that. And I would write stories and do these many monologues and impressions of family members for my sister constantly and, and I wanted to be a part of that. But I thought that maybe not wrongfully. So looking at American television and film, particularly in the eighties, and nineties, I thought you had to be from, from Hollywood from a family, that's in Hollywood or look like a model. If you're a girl, I thought those were your options, and they didn't fit the Bill on any of those are up here because I couldn't believe this one, I. When a you know, read it but, you know, we know the way you look from better, call Saul and the way you look today out in the world, you're saying it was like majorly different at a certain point. Right. Can you describe I started acting? Yes. I was. Well, I had taken an acting class. I had I think I just enrolled. And maybe it started my first year of college when. And I looked pretty much like pretty much like me, plus the, you know, the lovely freshman ten. And but I was very unhealthy. I gotta say, I hate horribly, and I know one exercise did not grow up with family that I don't. And I don't know if that was just my family or suburbs of Virginia or the decade, we're talking about. But I grew up with like we all knew the one weird mom on the block who jobs and isn't that weird. She jogs. And we'd look at her out the window. So. Yeah, I came came into it pretty unhealthy. But then my father passed away during my. At the very end of my first year of college, and I went through as you might guess, a lot of searching and transformation and expected Ellian. Yes. No, he was he died of alcoholism. And so it wasn't like any of us were surprised that the road ended that way. But you also. We're talking about as a child of an alcoholic. I think a lot of people would agree that is you almost start to just think the end might come and any moment. So then you get a nearer to that. And so then in a way it is surprise when it's like, oh my gosh. Wow. It really happened. Okay. So I did what I thought was so rebellious. But apparently, a lot of people do this. I've I later read chopped all my hair off. I had long straight blond hair and eye chopped it off. And then buzz cut it was crewcut. And then I died at jet black. Who's this was like Sinead O trying to think I don't I don't know. What wasn't? I wasn't even like holding a magazine picture of someone idolize it just I don't know. I look back. I was eighteen and I think I think. I think your limit you feel limited in how how to express the chaos, that's happening. And so maybe changing your appearance, dramatically, I mean, cutting off really long blonde hair that I'd have for had forever was was fairly dramatic to me at the time and, and then I proceeded to eat and rarely leave bed the bed for for that summer. And so I say all of that, to say that got very unhealthy and gained a lot of weight. So by the time I was telling my college teachers and friends that I wanted to act for a living I just was in love with acting the first time I took a class because it was first time, and they were teaching Linney Rebac, one of my favorite and most beloved mentors. She her class. She was teaching practical, aesthetics, David Mamat on Atlantic theater kind of approach. It's the first time I heard about object. Gives and obstacles and given circumstance and. That what happened in my brain was, you took the magic of storytelling. And the fact that I loved the idea that someone's job was to tell grown adults stories, and that we still like children will sit around waiting to be total story and waiting to be taken somewhere from point. Eight point be. And then if you're good enough at the storytelling, you can take somebody anywhere on blackbox stage with nothing. You can tell me that we're on Mars sci-fi French films film Noir, dramatic things. I put myself in someone else's footsteps for a beat and come out the other side thinking differently. And so that when that magic met what I found out was actually a craft then that hand eye coordination, part of me that, that loves math. I mean, not well, the math of the craft of acting of that makes sense to, to, to break down a script. Yeah. Those and oh you can apply yourself. It's not just magical fairy. That some people are better at this than other people. It's, it's work. It's something you can apply yourself to it's something that's bigger than lock and more important than looks. It's it's, it's a thing I can study. So when those came together, I'm mmediately, what's hawked? And then I went through this period after my dad died that sort of altered appearance that first acting class preceded your dead dying, or it was a receipted. Okay. So you were already heading in that direction. But okay. But telling people that I wanted to do this for a living because I went to George Mason near Washington DC, because I actually thought I wanted to do exhibition curated an exhibition design. And so I thought I would in turn the cork or the Smithsonian or something like that, looking for a way to, like, how do I. How am I gonna financially make it has a painter? And then I just immediately fell in love with, with acting and. I just I have to do this for light by half to. I love thinking about what makes other people tick on obsessively and I'm people watching all of it, and so any with the appearance thing just affected me in that. And listen, I look back and I look at those pictures and. An I think we should be accepting women of all different shapes and sizes, and I think I was cute as a button, just a little bigger and a little more androgynous looking because my hair and stuff like that. But the sorts of castings I mean so, so you're taking the acting classes I guess are you also in college productions and stuff while you're still George Mason or was that only afterward. I was in a few but not many. I there are really, really great acting teachers and art teachers, actually, George Mason University, primarily, because a lot of them are adjunct there. It's a commuter type school. So there's no coddling. Most of your teachers have a gallery show tonight or going on stage tonight. And so. There's a lot of pros and cons back to the good of that you need to you need to figure your shit out cursing. You're shit out. And for whatever reason trying to remember, they do a type of on samba acting thing, where the same group of kids moves up together, and for whatever reason I think it was because I was coming too late. It wasn't my declared major. By, then I had a for whatever reason I needed to make it a minor and not a major. And so I sorta got left out a little bit of their, their normal curriculum the way they do it. And so I did a lot of independent studies and didn't end up in college productions because I was a little bit outside of that loop, even though it got the benefit of all their wonderful teachers, but I started going downtown and. Sorry, going into DC and. At that time you. Shoot. What was the city paper? Which is sort of like the village voice for, for DC recipes. Unloved choice. But. I was looking for community theater production anything, and I started volunteering to, I would read stage directions for new play in a church basement anything. Just because I felt acutely aware that I needed to figure out how to make this a profession that I could make a living from. And it felt to me that many people in the arts around me, not just my school sort of. Either end up like my dad relegating it to a hobby because you can't make it a profession or, or sort of dreamy. I'd think that you're somehow just gonna leave school and get hired professionally in forgetting to to bridge that gap in some way. So I kept trying to actually volunteer in professional settings instead of my school, and I did get some thoughts about casting bacteria, which question my apologies. But yeah my appearance, I didn't think it was that different and I gravitated towards theatre because I started to go into DC and watch shows at, and if anybody out there has not seen theater in Washington DC. It is amazing. It is amazing one of my greatest compliment compliments to this day that I'm acting company member willy mammoth theater. And they are they're phenomenal. And so as a renewed stage and used to work at a studio theatre and source theater. They are often doing, especially willy mammoth, and to some degree arena, doing productions that are taking bigger risks, like we had NICKY, silver coming to do stuff in Doug, right, and Amy Friedman and. Diana son, and Paul Vogel, was working on a piece at arena, and often, the playwrights would actually work out new things and take even bigger risks because it is a professional very literate theater audience there. And the Washington Post is reviewing you and it is a big deal, but they could sort of really jump without a net before taking that production to New York, and it didn't mean that the New York production, was necessarily better or worse, which some people might think that about New York theater versus other places. It meant that we really like, really worked workshops some of these characters and the lines and try to see how far can we push the audience in what's provocative versus shock and? It was amazing. It's amazing. After you, graduated, you're saying area doing those twelve years in DC, well, and so had it, so, so I think you hear it. Sorry, my early on. I got slapped in the face to find out like that. This apparently this package doesn't work for all the roles now in theater. Thank god. It's a little more fitting than on camera at that time. On cameras gotten a lot better now. But. But what happened is they wouldn't let me I didn't realize no one was gonna let me play any Andrzej new roles. I didn't really some of them. Yeah. In some place, that was clearly, the most interesting part to me, not because they had the most lines over the leads or anything like that. But just they often were given the most to do or whatever at first and I ended up actually being wrong. I think because what my what my packaging appeared to people, and I also was very I was always I always had this voice, which lower register is off to some people coming out of young person call. I wanted to I wanted to ask you about like when that came along, because that's, that's always been very forthright. And I make eye contact and. While I. Fight deep insecurities, and self esteem issues, and always having certainly was then I still can hold my place than a room. And I'm okay to take up space of always felt fine about that. And that Jackson position with my appearance on my forthrightness to people. They were like you're a character. You just you're just you're only allowed to play the character parts. Some pretty awful things were said to my face when I attempted to addition for things that we're not the character like. You know, well that role we have to get somebody that is attractive to men was one of the reasons that I was not allowed to read for one role. And yes, I have seen that person's. And yes, I did bring that story at an award ceremony because I'm awful. In being the greatest gift, I played all the strange friends and the people who have deep secrets on the people who are. Fighting addictions and the crazy friend who's in an aside. All these fantastic parts and the reliance was deeply on I need to make myself a better actor somehow, someway, every single day. 'cause because apparently apparently my looks are not going to carry me. Well, and slow at what point did you? And why did you then Aben in that? But sounds like sort of more Butch is that the word. It just didn't look commercially. Like, what we think Ognjen news. Look like I was probably forty pounds heavier to which, again not not horrible to look at or anything like that. But just wasn't finning certain packages and. It changed actually just because I started started getting work started professionally working while I was still in college, and even though it was non union theater, but it was professional as long as somebody's buying a ticket and my school didn't get it from me. That's professional to me. And I was so tired. I was doing school and a day job. And then rehearsing, and I realized pretty quickly, like wow, for every hour, you're rehearsing you can count on at least another hour at home that you should be working on your stuff and studying and tired, and part of it was skipping meals thinking that, that was a good way to lose weight ridiculous. You know, and, and then eating pizza or cheeseburger at two o'clock in the morning, and going straight to bed and not exercising. And I was just tired so tired. And I thought I gotta get some energy and I. I know it sounds like crap, but I honestly started they are I think I need to get healthier because I want to do this for a living, and, and I got, like eighth grade health books and relearned, what portion was that's not what she's cake factory putting plate. And I did really small things like the whole first year I just told myself. Oh, apparently, I'm supposed to drink this much water. I don't drink any water. I don't even drink a Cup of water. That's weird. So all I did was add water all the water is supposed to drink. And then and I started to feel a little bit better. And I also had a lot of anxiety and even depression stuff after my dad passing away. And luckily, I had parents, my mom was great. She was very supportive of me doing doing whatever she still as she there was. No, there was no blinking for my family about what you're going to be an actor. It was more like, well, whatever she says she's gonna do, she's going to digger hills, just letter. You're telling them at the or your telling her at that point, that your dream is you're gonna be a forget about just I'm gonna be a theater actress. It's not screen was not in the equation for awhile, right? I didn't. Yeah, I wanted to because I grew up. I didn't grow up going to theater, we I think we had one field trip to go. See Julius Caesar, and it was not good. And it's too bad. It's too bad because I've. When did a workshop with some youth at risk, once I was trying to tell them like I swear to you, there's plays that will affect you make you laugh make you cry. Make you think make you a reexamined some things as much as any television show or movie that you seen you just need access to it. And DC does a lot of that pay what you can and free for students coming in on certain days and stuff like that for these for the Newark into it. They're not that the classics aren't great. They are. But, but I wanted to tell these kids, there's even stuff that you wouldn't guess what? Speak to you. So I wanted to do on camera because I grew up watching film and television that I was obsessed with. I got you know what? I'm not sure when I look back on. It's an interesting question when I look back on it, I'm guessing it was just another thing that I thought was just outside. My reach first acting seemed outside my reach than getting on stage was and then. And then and being on camera, I think, at that point, and all the time, not the time I was losing weight and getting healthier, but also becoming a better actor with every job. I did. And so I started being offered a wide variety of, of parts, but I still approach them the same way that from the beginning and then that became a casting issue and it wasn't television as well. That. Now, people were like the opposite thinking, well, okay. So she's a cute blonde, but she refuses to just be the girlfriend. I constantly infuse everything with subtext of, like, oh, no, no whole life going on here. While I sit and smile at my husband and not everybody wants that in their story before I think any screen acting under the picture as you said, there were these many years of theater. And one of the things I have to ask you about because you said it was in DC, but it seems like from late two thousand one to early two thousand two there was also a little Broadway experience. Yes, I acted in New York for three years, while before I came out to LA on, and I was an understudy to Julian, who spent tastic in Neil Simon's forty five seconds from Broadway. That was his love letter to the Edison theater. And I was her understudy, and I got to go on. This is my Broadway debut. How far ahead of going on? Did you know you're gonna get go? I'm like, could you tell people come? See me, because tonight's the night or whatever. Two days notice because she got food poisoning. I feel like they knew over the weekend that I might be going on. I might be wrong. Maybe it was the Monday. And I went on Tuesday, I'm not sure and oh my gosh. That cast was I was extremely prepared because Jerry Zaks was the director. And he insists that all under studies watch all rehearsals, everyday you must be there for every hour, and you all must be in the building, not with a get this pager or cell phone down the block during performance. We all an entire second cast lives in the basement during production during hanging out. Yeah. And you're listening to the speaker because he used to tell us if an awesome by back then it felt like tarantula terrified, but it's it was amazing. Because first of all, it was a master class, in acting watching these, it was David Margulis and Alex Cora and Louis Zawra ch and Louis Staten Island, Bill more the fabulous amazing Marianne cell is it was all Tony award winners up there were hurting. So I was perfectly happy watching Kevin Carroll who's now a friend of mine, and a huge TV and film, star himself, but you had to beat it on there, and he would tell us Jerry say if you hear on the speaker on the PA system that you hear somebody fall, I expect you to be able to complete their line without the audience knowing obviously, not possible. But that's how on edge. We were thinking we might go on. But that must've felt pretty great to be like, at, at that point. What could be better than being on Broadway? It was it was mazing. It was. And this was we were previewing on during nine eleven. And I was living in Brooklyn at the time. So it was a very weird time. Maybe that's why didn't even go didn't go it didn't go along the, the hardcore subscribers were still trying to prove that we're still going to theater, and we're still going to carry on time square. There was tumbleweeds going by and there was also the anthrax things started right after nine eleven. So then no one was on the subway and everyone was telling people don't go to large gathering places like Times Square. Don't ride public transportation on. And we're doing all of that. I think we resumed preview rehearsal. Maybe. Maybe only like a week after nine eleven and I hadn't even I hadn't even gotten on my pajamas terrified, and my boyfriend at the time in Brooklyn. We took turns leaving NPR on all night on their alert channel too, because you still didn't know like is this done, or we are they bombing? Are they gonna continue bombing? What, what nobody knew? And, and I watched the twin towers go down out my window and, and then I remember getting the call. And I forgot his name, my stage manager saying, okay. Come on tomorrow's. And he was just very matter of fact, tomorrow rehearsal, you know, ninety blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then we're going to do a preview and I was like, what are you insane? We're not rehearsing a play rehearsing a comedy this crab. No way. And I hung up the phone and I just thought it was ridiculous. And I gotta tell you the next morning, I was, I just started crying because I realized how thankful I was to be told, what? To do to be told put your pants on put your shoes on you're going outside, and you're actually getting forward. Oh, yeah. You're getting on that L train, and you're going to rehearsal, and I was so hot there was four people in the subway already ways at each other. It's weird. It was so weird and then we got there and the and Jerry this beautiful speech about God. I wish I could remember it's from someone. It's not Mark Twain. Hopefully somebody out there knows you have to call me when you find out who this author, but it has to do with when the world is at its worst, and, and chaos at its is its greatest. That's when we need the arts, the most and have you was thrilled to have any purpose at all in that moment. So how much how long after that was it that you moved LA? And what was that brought up? But why did you do that? I was doing a play at the wonderful mazing player rises and audition on videotape. It was video tape everybody would always say, like if you wanna do season if you everyone tells and you have to go to LA for pilots and. Obviously everybody knows that I'm sure it's the same in your profession. It's the same in every there's no always never anything. There's all different pats grant, the likelihood of being seen in a casting room for television show at that time was more likely if you were physically here, but I was afraid I was working by that time I was working in plays. Blissfully a lot. I worked constantly and felt like I was always making myself better with every play every scene, and I did want to do television and film. But you know back to what you asked a while ago. There was something about it that thought like will never accept me. Anyway, so what I going to go there and get off a bus and be like, who needs a Caucasian blonde? You don't have enough of those. I just thought that's ludicrous. Their satiated. They're fine with that. And when did you get the town well, I dish in on this videotape. And then they wanted to do a screen test. I was not sorry, a studio testament network test, which at the time I didn't know what those words my agent. I'm like, what? So I went in it was for this great role on, I'm with her and it was to play. Teri Polo's, little sister, ABC sitcom. Yeah, she Marco peanut based on Chris hunches, real life of dating when a regular guy tries to date a celebrity because he married Brooke Shields, as amazing lovely, and I've met her as well. Yeah. And I was literally, the, the early on upon arriving out here. That was one of the first things that was the thing I got it, and then it got picked up. And they moved me here. I came with I can't with the job, which is pretty much the best way to come. And that was, I think basically a lasted a season. Twenty two Soad's you. But I mean, we should remind people that maybe it was not that dissimilar to doing because you're doing front of a live Autorite it wise. Yeah. It was a multi Cam live audience show. So you were hearse. Rehearse the whole week leading up to whatever your show night, as and then on show night, you sort of do this for anybody in theater. It looks just basically tech rehearsal on all day, and then not not you do a live performance, and I tell us one story, I think it was given for charity thing. But I they people were a little concerned, two producers, not in a crappy way, but people were trying to make sure that I was okay with anything that was not familiar to me, like a camera beacon received camera this that and the other, but a lot of the staging the presidium style staging, I'm very used to and for some reason, though, they kept warning me about show night, like just not me live up there. And so, I guess a lot of people that only on camera acting like get freaked out. I'm not really sure I was like, right. Yeah. And they're like, like all of those seats are gonna people, okay, I got it. And then they told me but here's the thing when we do. The live show. We're going to do it. It's almost like a play, right? We're going to do the whole thing. And then if they're stuff we have to work on, like, scenes, not working. We actually let the audience go, you don't want exhaust them. They'll go, and then we'll stay and work, it out if if something needs to be done over and over, and I thought, oh, okay. So what I so I thought I thought they literally met, we're gonna do with thirty minute play without stopping. There will be no second takes anything. If you need a second, take if you miss anything up we're going to do it later tonight. So, so was in, in, in, in sitcoms staging these sets if you if you I'm sure you've seen live one, but anybody at home listening hasn't almost like little shoebox stages, and the cameras are sliding the three to four cameras, usually for is sliding up and down and moving on location location. And so in the script, I think I'm in. Yeah, I'm in the first scene, and it's at home. And the second scene. Takes place in a cafe. I think it was a cafe. That was the stages at the that was the set that was at the end of the stage, the furthest away and just different day, and I'm in a different costume. So I spend the entire week rehearsing looking at that going and a number of these came up, and I kept thinking, like that's an insane quick change. And I was used to like, you know, at arena stage, you know, I had these fabulous dresses that like they basically ripped your clothes off that are velcro and throw things on you and you run outside and it's run back on stage and it's amazing. But I didn't notice any dressers. There didn't seem in. We're not even doing like a rehearsal of that, watching the other actor's day cliff, Danny, and Teri polo, who are all very, experienced television, people, and Ted wass was the director and everyone's like he's from blossom and I was like forget that he's from. So that's what I want you and. I thought I'm waiting till someone else asks about their quick change. I don't wanna be because I I'm thinking the whole time I'm gonna get tired. They're just gonna realize like you know, she's good, but she cannot pull this off. So I don't say anything about anything the entire week. I'd never asked for anything and I was like, somebody'll ask eventually, right? Because that's not possible nobody ever asked. So then we went to I went to my fitting asked the costume designer if all of my things could be changed velcro, and like whole on, like elastic things, and she's looking like what is going on? Yeah. Are you? Disabled like, what's why can't you like they gave me tennis shoes? Can you make them pull on? No can change it to elastic laces. So they're just pull out my jeans. I asked change us, an elastic, waist really that she finally get why, you know, I never talked to this day, I've never, but I mean, I had a button thing and everything became slip on grandmas. I was like a toddler which the did actually because I think they were thinking, I don't know, maybe she's just weird address, and I don't want to upset or like maybe something's wrong with her. She has no territory. I don't know. So I get all my clothes change to children's. You can still watch. I'm wearing sweat pants and I changed the blocking in the first scene like I'm supposed to be talking. And then I exit but I kept changing it to the line is actually on the exit because they might have just trying to plan. How many seconds I could do this quick change? And then at Warner Brothers, you're dressing rooms are above the stages. They're in the same building. They're not like a trailer somewhere. So they set your custom changes up there, because for anybody who doesn't know out there, the end of the story involves, like when you film, this show, you stop one hundred thousand times, and then you go change causing you come back down and someone reduce your hair and makeup. So I took my they start my costumes up there on Shona and I took them down. And I hit them behind all this. Insertive. We do the first take of the first scene. I'm literally, you can see if you can find the show, you can see, I do my last line with just my head sticking out of a doorway, because I am ripping, I am taking my clothes off, while I'm speaking door. And then I bolted down behind all the stages pass lake the exact cer- back there and people's invited guests busting asks running ripping my clothes off go flying over a C stand bloody shin all over the place. I get my clothes back on. I'm sweating. And. You go into the cafe. And I'm ready. I'm ready with my first line. But it's pitch black. And I hear them you'll. Like let's go again. Where's ray? I'm like. Only then to look from the audience side all the way down the sound stage. And I see like oh, wow. They're going to go again. Okay. Yeah. And he's like, what are you wearing bloody shin different, costumes? Sweating. I never told any of them, I think they just think. I think. I have never told anybody that works there. That's larrea. Well, yeah now with all the TV experience you can really laugh at that my God. Well, okay, so that show was two thousand three two thousand four the unless I missed something, the next real like series, regular was Whitney, which is two thousand eleven to two thousand thirteen. So what was going on in the seven years between that was that good on paper, it looks like I, I'm not saying you didn't do anything. There's a lot of hits. Okay. So that's didn't make including a couple of shows. I did. Shoe, single table, which brilliant, I love that with them. John show. Alicia silverstone. That was Mike, Schiff and Bill Martin. And that one we did six episodes for five. I wanna say FOX writer strike happened and it didn't air. Head cases. Bill chase this show. I did. We did six six percents of that. And I think they aired three of them, but yeah, I was actually continually wasn't over like you were struggling to get a job or what? But is it the moralizing when you get invested in a new project, and then it goes three episodes of that? And I mean it's not uncommon a lot of people that not we talked to here. But I mean, I would still think it beats you down after a while you think that this is gonna be the one that takes it to the next level in the right. Well, we'd guest are on things that were on so, but it did feel after a while, like is all my work in vacuum like what's happening. And then some of them, you know you just love to buy loved head cases. I particularly loved even Adams Kevin falls pilot that I think now would get on. But at the time was just to odd. It was a remake of an Argentinian show and I was playing. It's a, it's a misogynist man who has a curse put on him one day and wakes up as a woman, and he's sports agent. And so it was me playing will our net trapped in my mind. And it was so much fun. But they just didn't. They were struck the network was like what was the this was a while? Yeah. They were like what is the love interest going to be like either way? It's gay. Right. No matter. She's a minimum. And we were like, yes. Isn't that fantastic? But they weren't ready for at the time. And also, like okay so, and that was my first lead a tischler lead on camera. And again, back to how we started the whole thing, it was character. It was the first time that they've figured out, like, oh, what's cool about her looking one way. But her personality being another way, is this? And so I I it was it was some of the first meetings, I had where the network couldn't say, what does she was wearing lower shirts or because my character had no idea how to dress herself. And she's walking around in sweat pants, she doesn't. She uses the new the rubber band from a newspaper to just get her hair out of her face. And I walked like a guy and I taught it was, it was so much fun. And then also the sick of it. I did with Michael Mckee. That was Christopher guests. That was the American an Mitchell Hurwitz based on the British in the loop and that of it. Our chief, then eventually becomes the that one that one crushed me that did not go back for saying, though, to something you just about, you know, notes from the network about lower Cleage or because you were obviously quite active in this pre metoo era of network television. Where again, they're very specific things that they're looking for sort of stock characters often and not and things that, you know, this could appeal to this demographic, and we've got to get young males. And we gotta do all this. We're you encountering bullshit like that, not necessarily even like reaching the level of of, you know stuff that's come out in the last. Yeah. But just like. Stuff that again, maybe the word would be demoralizing, they're not seeing past the surface here. Somewhat. Yeah. I'm I'm super grateful that I can say that. I am a couple of things I'm grateful for many things, but. I'm very proud of all the sitcoms, I and I did a lot of sitcoms aired and some didn't. But I, I li- I did ten years of sitcoms and. I think all of them were interesting, intelligent, great bounces, if and they were almost all broadcast networks and balancing wide demographic appeal. And then having the smart jokes threaded between that only like little niche will laugh super smart writers just quickly mention so with Ney's an NBC from two thousand eleven to two thousand thirteen then Franklin and bash was on TNT. I guess overlapping to, I guess start on that for six seasons. Yeah. And they were and that was Kevin falls, and Bill chase. And they were lovely to me that. I could it be a series regular with them because I was tied up in other shows and even some shows that didn't air. But the contracts never worked out. And I love working with them. And I'm I'm very proud to say that. I think they love working with me. Hopefully, they'll do so we, we constantly a way to make that work. I did. Yeah. I did that overlapping with many shows, but you're saying, so you had pretty much positive experience. Did you know what I encountered more seem like the people whose job it is to make? Network shows a business I feel like some of those people were concerned and you'd catch wind of that, even if they tried to keep it behind the scenes, you could tell you could tell that they were concerned with. Not just appearance of the female characters. But like ability, and that, that bummed me out because a part of me understood. Well, it's a commercial business in the and I understand that you need to not offend people in cert- on certain networks at certain on insert timeframes, but, but at the same time, the, the, the definition of likeability and the parameters of that felt a lot tighter than it did for the male characters. So it wasn't so much being harasser demoralized as much as feelings thwarted creatively. Sometimes when the writers producers directors totally will were all for what I wanted to do. And I'm watching the male character next to me be allowed to push those limits to do things that they seem like a no brainer. But they're not to be allowed to get angry and a scene and not let everyone know it's okay at the end most of the females end up having to an believing. Now, I watch sitcoms, there's all sorts of people that are breaking the rules. I'm talking about. And for whatever reason are impositions. Where they're allowed to do that. And so there's, there are very smart women. Sitcoms on right now. But yeah, I did feel. I felt that pressure in, in a way that seemed seemed gender-based. And then there were also times where I felt like. Every now and then it's not so much. What said to you? It's that you're spoken to differently than your male counterpart. I sometimes felt like directions seem more. More craft based to the mail and more. Not all my by Ted wass me. I can listen, I've had far more amazing dressers, but just since we're having this discussion there were times that I felt like the direction and you can even see it in review sometimes, and they've gotten better but theater reviews consum- times and actually any activists can sometimes tend towards the legs. She has a magical quality. She's just she's a few sieve in has that, that certain thing, and then they're describing the. Yeah. The'real quirky, blah, blah, blah. And then the male character that actor they're describing his abilities, what brilliant choices the, the skill involved with XYZ? And then the woman comes on and they're just like just gorgeous just. I mean just that in unspeakable quality, what can you? So sometimes the direction that I got over the years also felt imbalanced in that way. So, yes, the stuff stuff like that. So all right. Whitney ends two thousand thirteen Franklin and bash two thousand fourteen and seems like right about the time you get an audition for a show that I don't even know if it was yet titled better, call Saul. But this is a story that I want to kind of prompt, you tell because I think it will make every actor who is working hard and not yet really getting the chance to show fully, what they can do feel that the daily shrug of that is worth it because the, the story of your addition process is just kind of awesome. Right. In the way at all, can you? I mean who addition for in what was your feedback? Sharon Bialy, Sherry Thomas. Russell, Scott Bialy Thomas casting in. They like a number of casting director Allison Jones. There's, there's a handful of cash doctors here in LA, who. Who are so great at their job. But also took the time to be encouraging of me, whether or not I got the job labor helmet years that you've been seeing them for Bialy Thomas. I had addition, it had to have been ten years, and I was working and I do want to say to because someone else asked me about the story recently and I wanna say. I am aware that what I was going through, and that struggle is not nearly as debilitating as an actor who's not getting any more. I'm simply saying for them, I never got cast. But I was as we've discussed I was in show that went or didn't go or guest starring. So I do understand that. It's the few times of my life where I've had a dry spell, where there was no outlet for my creativity is it's horrible. And it's as I said debilitating? So I'm not saying it was that, but it was a situation where I wasn't aware coming from theater doing just as much dramas comedy. I was not aware that I would get pigeonholed as a sitcom actress, when I got out here, just because that was my first show, and then I got another succumb, and you can only be so lucky that people are even thinking thinking of you for anything succumb resolve means kind of like bubbly fund pretty, but not necessarily that which also, by the way, not fair US anybody to name their favorite shows and cheers, all in the family and Seinfeld. And all these very character. It shows that are very smart come up. So if you think comes or dumb, then you watch sitcoms, I don't know. It's although. Maybe in the sense of the amount of depth that like those shows that you just named were sort of pre real rise of cable and streaming and all where, you know, if feels like the edgier character characters that can have more nuance are more nuances are now not necessarily on the broadcast networks doesn't mean that every actress who's Ana broadcast sitcom, or whatever is, is not also excellent. But if feels like there are limits people doing situational one day at a time black. And then there's the rise of single Cam ones to which are not smarter, but allow you creatively to go, I think life in pieces was really, really smart. And that was, I think a hybrid, maybe it was just single Cam. But. Yeah. So I hear you was naming the classic ones. And in some ways, maybe we took more risks. Rest on, you know, you go back and watch Mary Tyler Moore, or even all in the family. It's like we got if you tried to pitch all in the family right now, I know it was just on live. But nobly we had a white old racist of your lead. Like what? Like what we just a couple of weeks ago. Head Norman Lear on this podcast. We were talking about the fact that like in some ways there they were edgier than you could be now but, but so you're you though going into this audition, though, after ten years, had in a lot of people been pigeonholed as mattress and people like Siri, Bialy Thomas and casting, and as I mentioned John's at a few others, were calling me and for dramas and, and really dark comedies instead of lighter fare, and they did it once or twice. And then I guess liked what they saw what I was bringing this stuff and continue to comment for things that I sometimes there just wasn't a chance in hell that I was going to get it. I even went in for some things for. Sharon, where I was aware acutely aware like on someone had already has an offer for the role and sometimes they just went backups. You know, if the contract doesn't work out or whatever and not only was I willing, but I was so excited. That they kept believing me for this theory wide range of roles really, really, really pushing against my limits of even things I'd done on stage. Size of roll type of role physical packaging of the role calling you in for things where they only want names, and I wasn't, but that so what we still want to we just went this director to see your work or whatever not only were they call him for those, but I was so thrilled to do these little mini three minute blackbox performance for these three super supportive, people who also gave me direction all the time, they do give direction and casting sessions, which is awesome. And ask you to do it different ways and make adjustments. But they would also tell me don't change the way you attack roles rate, the right, people that you're supposed to work with and it wasn't. It wasn't so much like the right the perfect roller come for you. It was additionally, letting me know that it's okay that I keep adding subtext to the girlfriend that's standing there. And making an trying to at other layers to things. It's okay that I take up space on a room and the people. I should be working with that will make me a better actor and a richer artists for it will come along. And if somebody in that room does not like the way, I work shouldn't be with them anyway. And it'll be okay. And so, yeah, they told me later that by the time they cause. Vince, computer gold were already scouting locations in our perky when the casting session started for my role. Tons of people were there in the hallway waiting the it was huge, it was huge. And I had the pleasure of operate better from an underdog position. And so I was kind of, like, well, obviously that will just be an offer to any anybody that they want get. So I'm going to do another three minute blackbox performance percents valley times. And maybe they'll see it in there. And I know Patrick Fabian has said the same thing about his audition, we both kept singing. Well, do really, really well do your bring your game who's in the room when you're dishes. Just video camera. I just thought, well, maybe if I do good enough job, they'll call me in for like the waitress and set seven or something Patrick felt the same way but I also just the way I had been approaching my roles for those guys for ten years, meaning casting that you have to love an I know it sounds corny. But I say this to actors when I've coached them you have to be in love with the actual work that breaking on that script that stuff that I told you I started with I fell in love with as much as the magical result, you have to be in love with making up characters. You have to be in love with staying home when everybody goes out on Friday night and thinking about this scene. Over and over and over again. And an asking yourself to break it down. Do your homework and now push yourself to make the less obvious choice. What's a more interesting take on that line? What do you actually think the characters thinking about this in this section where they don't speak at all? Why don't they speak? What was that choice about? And if you're not in love with that part, you're always going to be in a situation where you're. Auditioning only for the result. And of course, I wanted the job and nerves will get a hold of you because of that. But it is a tremendous weapon against those nerves to fill up your head with the energy at takes to make a little three minute portrait of someone that you love this little sketch this little painting. It took up all the Rams base in my head that day, so that I didn't have room to be built Chem at that point, nothing. And by the way, they gave us fake sides, which happens a lot in on dishes, because they don't want the script floating around their insides up down the hallway and in a trash can somewhere. So I knew nothing. I did not know she was a lawyer, she had a different name, and every call back I had was a new character. That also was not Kim. So. Addition for a character when it's not even the character auditioning for. That's the thing you ask yourself. I and I sweat it that out for a while going okay, I'm gonna try to guess, like what they actually want the character to be one day. And it's like that's ridiculous futile quest. So what you need to do is you need to play the fake character. They may not the best you can and it turns out every time they had this characters, they were qualities that they wanted to know that you were capable of should they arise in Kim, and you'd have to ask them how much they knew what she was going to be in where she was going to go beforehand. I don't I don't know. But yeah, I just applied myself to the character. That was that was there. And then had a callback and applied myself to that character which was new. And then by the by the time we did the network test slash chemistry read. Yeah. Upset bob. And then I was given real sites and it was the it was the scene. I think is up three of season. One. When he calls me at home, and you're still very unclear about what their relationship is purposefully. So, and I tell him to do use the robot sex voice, and he's trying to ask me about the cattleman case, and, and it's not exactly kosher. So that was my final scene feedback you got was well, first of all Vincent, Peter, did it at the Sony a lot with Tom schnauzers there, an Melissa Bernstein, Mark Johnson EP's, and they gave you direction, which was so fun. A lot of network tests most network tests have done and I've done. I've been lucky enough to many of them at this point. It's so terrifying. You're going into sometimes the conference rooms with a bunch of couches or something, and you get one shot. And if you mess up, or you just had an off-day or you got really nervous for some reason. I mean one dish ruined it. Just because I realized, I, I was sweating from Europe so badly that. The sweat stains were so bad that I ended up having to do the whole additionally, t Rex didn't wanna little arms. And I'm sure they were like what is wrong with? I did not get that part. But it's just stuff like that, where you're like Hugh, could've easily missed the best person. Not always the best actor not. It's not even meritocracy some days. But most days but. Somebody could have just been often. Instead, Vincent, Peter, they taped it, and you got to do it many times that you wanted to until you felt good about it. Although for someone like me, I eventually told them what we're gonna have to cut this, if we wait till I think it's a great sake. We would not be filming right now. But it was it was a really supportive room and the casting directors. What did they say they were lovely on my on my first edition with them, they said, I did a great job. And they later told me Sharon later told me that when they showed these tapes to Vincent Peter when they were narrowing down, who was going to be in the final tests. They said, we've got to tell them, here's a tape of her, but also listen to her range, and they, they were she's like we were able to speak about a body of your work for a decade that no one has ever seen, and I'm gonna get Terry now I 'cause when Sharon told me I teared up just because on paper every single one of those additions was a failure because I didn't get the job, but actually they weren't. They were all successes because I even when told you can't get the role brought my a game, both because of my work ethic, but also because I love making up people and, and doing it in front of people that are supportive that want you to be great. Sharon, and, and Russell want you envy, computer for that matter, the energy in the room was always, I bet this is going to be off. Let's go instead of dance. Dag nab, a dance you know with a gun at your feet. And so they. Told me. Yeah. They, they said we were able to speak about your work ethic, and your range, because they didn't totally know where can was gonna go or what she might be one day. I guess about work that, like I said is, is technically all failures so that now that all tribute to L. I think it's a great thing to know into remember that staying on that Friday night and being great every time it does matter the universe is hearing it somebody seeing and hearing it. And also you embolden the part of you that loves the part of this job that you have control over every time you feed that part of you that does what you do, because you simply love, it would do it alone for no money in your basement. Every time you feed that it gets a little bigger than the part of you that feels like I have no control over this. It's all up to everybody else. I have to wait for my big break. No one's helping me. I can't do this, you know. And I mean. Do you make you can make a web series this week on your phone when people like you know, it's so crowded out there. No one's ever gonna see, you know, know what I'm talking about is making something make work that you're that feeds you. I know it's super hard business to make a living. And I know that I sit in a place. Great gratitude for being where I am. But I do think it's important to. To love the work part of it because you can control that too. You get the part. Do you remember specifically just your reaction that moment because just just for seconds ball? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, really long time after that network test screen tests, and I don't know the ins announce, I know that it wasn't to be sadistic manipulative, I think it had to do with sending the tapes to some network, people that couldn't be in the room that day and the for item at any rate, it took a while. And I thought I actually thought it took so long that this is this is done. Sometimes a call back and take a really long time to here, but to have the screen tests and not here. I was like, and I knew they were beginning shooting, like so I tried to push down, how devastated I was. Because by that point, of course, the hope had arisen. Yeah. Only five people screen tested, and dammit, and then Peter Gould started following me on Twitter freaked out. My fiance was like he wouldn't do that, if you weren't gonna hire somebody would you think it's a sign his Hon, if we could be helpful. And then on my birthday was out on my actual birthday may twelve grand my fiance was taking me out to dinner at my agent called and, and manager and said that I got the job, and we were getting ready to walk into a restaurant in Venice, and I almost collapsed on the sidewalk was just because I knew the level of storytelling that these guys do, and I also knew. The amount of character development that they write encourage, and enable in an actor an I just thought they're just there can't be a greater gift. And I wasn't wrong. We'll saw on, on the one level, obviously, as you're saying, there's great excitement anticipation on the other hand, were was there any part of you. That's as it sinks. In thinking, I'm joining a show that is almost on paper set up to fail a spinoff of what some people think is the greatest show ever. How can anything whatever it is. How can it live up to that? And our people just salivating, you know, do you get flashes of Joey the from friends all these ones where it just for anyone else? Yes. But like you know, I would think there's that as well. Oh, sure there's there's gazillion things to be terrified, you know. And I'm talking to game on your podcast. And then I go and cry myself to sleep out of fear about everything everyday. Yeah. No, I was I was scared for all all sorts of reasons. I actually going to be able to contribute, like, okay you wanted to be on this team. So can you are you going to hit like, what's, what's happening? And then also the show itself. I mean, obviously, it was set up to have backlash like, oh my God. There's going to be even if we're great. There's going to be people that are just mad that we exist because you shouldn't have touched the original blah. But a couple of things I thought Bob said this is well even though he was a character from breaking band. If Vincent Vincent, Peter did not need the money or the notoriety. So we, you have to assume that people that smart, not talented if they wanted to do it. They must have a story that they really wanna tell, and I'm sure it's going to be great. What the audience decides to do with that or trends, or backlash can't control. I can't control any of that. And then I kind of had in some ways, I felt less pressure that I was not one of the original characters, and no, honestly, I didn't know at that point can was in it, some a little just recurring will. Yeah. Because I mean at the beginning, it's not even clear what the nature of a relationship Jimmy is. And I don't know if you knew because I know you're saying, you've said, that you would get scripts not that far in advance of about three to five days before you start shooting them. So you know we do at. In early up that there was some some history there. Right. But they weren't, you know, making out there wasn't clear that they weren't talking about, you know, this what the history. What's so anyway? That was interesting. But I additionally now you've got up route your life for at least chocolate time and go to Albuquerque four and a half to five months for enough five months. You're joining group of people who have worked almost a large portion of the people in front of and behind the camera have worked together on breaking bed. They have history with each other. Was it encouraging, or frightening to join that kind of a group people that are already sort of Miller with each other in a place, that's removed from everything else, or you know, because I'm thinking on the one hand that that's is slating enough to be with a group people that no other new don't and now top that you're in the middle of nowhere. But on the other hand, what else is there to do, but get to know each other and work with each other? Yeah. More the latter. I think, and as soon as I started getting the first couple of script site. I. I realized, oh, this is of the fabric that breaking bad was made. But it is it is its own story. I think it would have been much more terrifying. If it just felt like breaking bad season seven or something, you know what I mean? Like it felt like its own thing. And so I felt some relief from that. And then the crew and the cast was immediately embracing of me and very excited in, there was never any, but there was never any vibe of. You're the new person just try and catch up with what we're doing. It was more like we're making a totally new thing together, and the people that are doing origin stories because they are characters that existed in that they have particular type of job to do. That's very interesting. But they were equally excited and Bob being one of those people about, like Europe blank slate, right? Like, what who is this character? What I what is this? And so, I think people extremely inviting from the beginning and me, not knowing what that relationship was turn out to be some of the of the cooler. Little gifts. I had to start trying to make Kim. I'm like, who is this person? She is extremely specific about what she says she says very little, she shows very low. So I started letting all of those things be clues to me. We share a cigarette in that I sewed he takes a cigarette out of my mouth and puts it in his that was written into the script, and I thought, okay, well, that's a level of intimacy. That's deep. You don't do that in the lesser known. Someone I don't know. I was like, I don't know if they are dating have been dating. But how long will you something? L sort of grew over time. They said you guys have ten they told us they said, we think you guys have tenure deep history, each other's confidants, extreme close friendship. We're not sure what else it is. Or what else it used to be? Or what else it will be? But just play that. Yeah. I would think because I don't know. Maybe I would think you behave a little differently around someone who you have a past intimate relationship with them. But so I had to just take what's there and ended up making this character. That I'm so find of now. He also said, we only have one line together, and Jimmy says, couldn't you just and I say, I you know, I can't and he meant like helped me upstairs, starring Ned Beatty model. So to me, I was like, okay, she has boundaries. They know each other well enough to finish each other's sentences and smoke the same cigarette but she will cut him off in a heartbeat. And then in the script it said she throws a cigarette away walks away. There was no like looks back with Google is thank God walks away. And it says without looking writes the trash can that he kicked in the beginning of the episode and gets on the elevator. And I thought, okay, so he does this all the time, and she cleans up his messes. That's a great without being sentimental about it. And for me that was a lot of information. Actually, another thing. That I read, you know, was helpful maybe kind of from the lease affected place. You go to your costume fitting, I guess, to some extent it tells you something about your character. But in this case, it really did. Yeah. Jennifer Brian is are amazing costume designer and I went and I had some ideas about the character at that point. And a lot of it was deductive math working backwards. Like if this is who you are. What do you think makes you that way, if you're someone that's that careful about what you say, then you're probably somebody who keeps things in and what's happening there, and she told me, we think that she met Jimmy starting in the mail room later in life, and then worked her way up in a law firm, very quickly, I was like, okay so to me this person seems very concerned with trying to get a single finger in the crag of middle class to somehow pull yourself up and don't let go for fear of God's d like hang on. I was thinking that and I go into the costume fitting and Jennifer Bryan, the first thing she says she goes so have your suits here. Just like you know, we're all gonna learn grow with Kim. And who she is together? Like it's not like I've been told a bunch of stuff that you don't know. But there's just something about her that to me feels like she still has to shop at Marshall's for separates. She can't afford the designer suit yet, but she's trying to blend in and make it in this world. That's a little bit outside of her reach. And I totally just tiered a crybaby on this about. But I just started tearing up because I thought, oh my God. Okay. So we're actually going to have costume, and makeup and hair was the same these discussions that are deeply character based, and it's something that I feel very protective about Kim over the journey of the five seasons. Now, Jennifer Bryan fills the same that the women, I grew up with that were desperate to pull themselves out of some situation by being at least lower middle class to middle class that fear to not backslide and the energy. It takes. Specially as women in the shows in two thousand two Albuquerque in a law office, which is male dominated. You don't change your purse. You don't change your jewelry. That's how that's how we came about these decisions at, like she doesn't even change her jewelry, and then it turned into she doesn't change your hairstyle didn't have time for that. And so, yeah, my clothes my suits specially season one and season two and they've grown they've now, she's evolved, a little bit of she has money for Mesa Verde, and all this other stuff, but they would look. Like a navy blue suit, but they would actually be blue in black. And they were repeats. It was like two skirts one jacket like on rotation. Yeah, it was great. It was all part of it. And, you know, some people look at these two characters who are at the center of the show, and they say, what could they possibly have to do with each other so different? But the reality wanted just rebut couple quotes. And then, as reaction but you've said that in season. One, quote, I would just look at his loafers. No instantly. Why Kim loves Jimmy? He's fucking holding together with a paper clip close quote, and then she's also this out sider who in her own ways barely holding it together. You said, quote Kim's an incredibly tightly wound character who is, but in down and keeping together with incredible willpower, close, quote, basically, there are these core similarities, even if she may be can hide it a little better than him. That does answer that question of. Why would these people ever want to have anything to do with each other in the first, which is pretty important? But one of the things I wanna ask about UN Bob. 'cause you have so many of these scenes together, which are often long takes with long back and forth. Do you guys work together? Learning the dialogue. Are you allowed to veer from it and improvise? I know he has this whole history in improv, a part of me thinks you hire Bob Odenkirk, you wanna make use of that skill set. And therefore now, you're gonna be doing with them that you can dance a little bit. But I'm not sure she'll just learning and executing these long back and forth. Yeah. New, we don't the scripture done to the letter Bob has said that he actually finds it to be this great relief that it's not his job. He's not writing the show and it's some of the best writing ever seen. So he's thrilled to be doing that. I think they've told him maybe a handful of times or less like when he's doing, bingo, at the senior citizens home, and he's supposed to be working the crowd. I think they told him he could add a joke or two if he wanted to and sometimes early on. When you get your first draft of the script, you can ask about if Bob wanted to add a line or something, but I. Even think he does that much. We do them to the letter. So in order to have the freedom to explore these four eight ten page just two people talking scenes that gloriously do not have a obvious arc. They're not. Oh, so it's two people talking and then they start flirting. And then that thing comes up and they get enough, huge argument. And then it's done. It's the twisty tale that I find so accessible. And so, thank the way we talk to people that we've known very well. We'll rehearsed aligns Atma's him over and over and over and over and over everyone in the cast dust because you don't wanna use your takes about lines. You wanna use all the time. We're given to perform to explore especially with like the Jimmy and Kim characters. Bob an I love, we've had these fantastic blow up arguments. But we also love the really quiet ones, 'cause they are in some ways more challenging and it starts to be about. There's what you say. Say but when you are with a partner for that long, it is so much about what you don't say. And also what you say between the lines and the slightest doing that bathrooms Sheen's if one of us looked away, when we said the line, it made the other one in character. I'm in you immediately perk up going. Why can't you look at me when you say that? And, and that alters the way. So you're next thing, does it hurt more that somebody can't look at you. Or are they lying? It's suspicious. What is it or to get close to someone to act like he might get up and leave and all of those tiny things start to matter as much as the lines in performance? You've got to know them for two backwards to do that. I think you said, though, the it's sort of your favorite moments are the ones where it's just to them together. Whether it's the nail slaughter the parking garage, whatever. Because when else do we ever see them actually either of them? Let their guard down and be their actual authentic selves. They're the only people that they would do that in front of. And then I guess as we get in masks of sort in public. And I don't with each other. And then you get to season for, and as they're growing apart, who does she have to be honest in front of except the audience. Yeah. And I said that last season season for Kim believes it's out of grief, his grieving that he is just becoming further and further distant and his history of the awful relationship chart yet. She's increasingly alone and you're right. She's without the even one person to let her guard down in front of an it did feel like the audience became her closest confidante, they are frequently in season for even the wonderful seen by Tom schnauzer that Michelle MacLaren directed up, so to where Kim, let's Hamlin haven't over the state in that instance I am talking. I'm not being silent, but I still was the audience is the only person that actually knows what all this is about and why I'm losing it on him. And he's taking the brunt of years. I've heard issues with Chuck and what Chuck did to Jimmy and the injustice and the unfairness of. So many things in the world and her coming up against the fact I think him desperately for whatever she came from. I think she thought legal and illegal would be the same as good and bad and moral and immoral and they are not turning out to be at all. It's deeply distressing to her that she cannot make order out of that. Public. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know it's another reason why she's with Jimmy in the beginning people thought that that was more than they do now. But I thought what the pillars of Justice in her life, the Hamlin's, and the chucks are the most duplicates and lie to her face and squishy down and don't give promotions and aren't fair and aren't ethical and are not moral and are terrible. People. I mean hamlet didn't turn out to be terrible, but she thought he was at one time, a Chuck terrible person. I love Michael McCain, he will. I know he to play him Chuck is right. But Jimmy, who's supposedly conmen, totally upfront and honest, totally tells her, yeah, and then, you know, some of that eroded last season. And I think that's when we saw Kim get blindsided, we'll so season for is the one that we've most recently seen, and as we move towards the end here, I've got a ask you about a few of them. You anticipated the first one season for up so to where you're confronting. Howard about this treatment of Jimmy, just I'm going to hit a few of these so just maybe Senator to about each just what don't let me limit you. But I'm just saying, like I wanna hit a few of these and let's start with that one just what it was like the prep for it to do it. Whatever stands out, as you think about it. I love that scene. I love Patrick Fabian. Michelle MacLaren and Tom schnauzer. It was a great scene. And Michelle, and I worked on it coming from a place of what did Kim intend to say versus what took over, when she started to try to tell him something, I think she meant to confront him. I do not think she meant to do what she did. So we approached that scene from one of your most basic acting things always, which is, it's, it's more interesting to play against. So if you take bile coming up in your throat, and for me, I made it about that paper as soon as she got that paper, she felt vile rising and her throat. How long can you keep it down? And it makes you breathe differently and it makes you swallow differently. And it makes you very intentional. When you are trying desperately. We've all been there were you're like do not let me cry right now because all lose all my power. Don't let me Barve. I don't wanna scream. I don't think she likes giving up control and so the push it down. Push it down. Push it down ended up making my body literally vibrate through it, and I'm never totally happy with my work, but I was happy with the response that fans felt like it was a tremendous amount of pain going on in that scene against looking with these are all season. Four episode eight Kim helps Jimmy to get you'll off joining him in a con, of course. And then at the end, when we think she might tell them off for having made her do this instead, kisses him and says, let's do it again. Right. So now it's like past the point of no return. The scripture page-turners. I didn't see that coming. But there's just so smart on the show because it never feels like a stunt. It doesn't feel like oh, you're making me do something you never expected, just to make me do something. You never expected. It's more like a. Right. That's always been there. Oh, right. And even you yourself didn't necessarily know exactly exactly. But if you go backwards, you're like, okay, yeah, they're relax episode nine of season for this one, I think, is the let's takes the cake, the rooftop scene directed by Vince Gillian and basically written by John Hutchinson. Brinda Johnson and Jimmy and Kim. Both basically lay out all of their grievances. Basically say everything that's been pent up. And you wonder if this is a breaking point, right? Yeah. They do such a great job on the show. The writers of frequently if not always making arguments where you can see both sides as audience on Bob, and I had to go to a place. And if he was here, right now, he would argue to the debt that Jimmy is actually completely the only person who's right in that scene. And I felt opposite as we should she's the he's saying. You don't support me enough, and she's saying, I give up everything for anytime. It's office. You are shitting on me by refusing to slum it to have an office with me. And she's saying, I do everything else, how could it possibly be about this office? But what I do understand. And I do like an it starts in the diner seem before that rooftop, right after the scam is that I like it when they do let you see commission on a martyr nor Saint and it isn't just about, like he infected her and taints her, it is stuff. That's in her. There is a need for control and Bishen and to be the crusader, and the hero that is flawed in its obsessive nece. And, and when she's saying, we only use our powers for good in his how is that? How is anybody deciding which so that Khan was go to this? And she shut them down. We're not talking about it in the rooftop. Her argument is a sound argument, except for the fact that if your partner tells you that every time you bring milk cartons home, it causes them, intense pain. Pain. They conversation about why that's ridiculous is not the whole picture. And anybody who was in a relationship knows it. Like you still have to address the fact that they said it causes them pain. And what are can we talk about that? And what is actually going out, and she refuses to she refuses to acknowledge it because I don't think she wants to answer that question either. And at the end of it, he feels that maybe for the first time she lets him see it, I don't know, losers to shrug word. But I mean Jimmy Earl is down that was hard line. That's got a shipping him. Yeah. We played it couple of different ways. And Vince is such a great great director. And then he said, no, I think she 'cause I was wondering, like she's saying this to hurt him, or does, she believe it. Or is it something in between what it is instead for me in that moment is, it's just simply the truth. If you're going to tell me excuse for your bad behaviour is because you had a shitty day. Then we have to do something about. The fact that you seem to continue to have shitty days every single day. Otherwise your behaviors gonna stay the same. And I think that's what she's saying in the moment is, is what you're blaming this on your whole life of being stepped on. You have to make some decisions about that because. Yeah, you're right. You do keep getting stepped on. So what do you want to do about it right now, fourth of the four that number to about season for of so ten the last time, we saw him onscreen, this whole sequence of Jimmy at his reinstatement appeal and making such a convincing plea? And then with Kim afterwards revealing that he was acting. And as she processes both sets of information, the, the contrast sort of rock her to the core, which is the last thing that we see in the season, as we know have to wait for she's five so just playing that there's a lot of ways you could have played the way she response. And she's mostly silent. I went in Washington this morning just to be. To be like, really up on it, and even so you're in whatever the room is where he's making his reinstatement plea. And again, as you say, you're not saying anything but even like your, I don't know if it's swallowing or gasping. But like your neck like bulges, when he says you start to believe what he's saying. And so therefore, if it has that affect on you, when you believe it, you then have to have the counter. Right when you realize it was bullshit. Yeah, it was very complex series of scenes on Bernstein direct at that time and Peter Rohde. And I felt like I needed to leave space when he's doing the reinstatement hearing to be surprised by obviously, she surprised these changing the game plan, and I was very worried about that because she orchestrated majority of how she was going to get him reinstated. Yeah. And you know, buying the library in checks, name and fake crying at the cemetery. I think that Kim's constantly trying to. To justify and compartmentalize the scam. She will be a part of, and they're a little robinhood complex about doing the right thing. And in this case, I think she believes he absolutely does deserve to practice law, and therefore, the tiny notion of whether or not they think he's sincere is neither here, nor there. And so the means to the end, let's wash button dangerous thinking, in my opinion, but so when he changes the plan, I think, she's very worried. But then when she thinks he's being sincere I left space for my self as an actor in that moment to let Kim be surprised by why she has an emotional reaction to that. And I think it has to do with how long she's been missing having a partner that was emotionally available and present. And as you said before somebody to talk to, and I think she wasn't aware how much she misses that kernel of Jimmy until she sees it and just relief for your partner that, like, gosh, maybe you can heal. Now, if you'll like let it go and to, to then. Shift to the hallway and they did such staged perfectly that Jimmy does not see me cry behind him, nor is he facing me for the beginning of the same ones where out in the hallway because he does not seem reaction shift when he starts saying. Did you see that idiot in their shed a tear and all this and again audience, the only confidante I have in that room. They know how crushing that would be embarrassing as for your instincts on your emotions to be wrong. There's so many things going on, there of only got who is this person? And then also to be the sucker to be the person that you scammed me and you don't but he doesn't know it. So she's rendered speechless for a million reasons that it's like, well, how do I explain how you hurt me? How do I even explain how you hurt me by the end of the Jimmy is gone? That's all good. So that's I guess where we've left but yeah. And then they do that wonderful pullback on the camera. Marshall Adams did that leaves her alone on an island which. It's more alone than she's even felt for the whole rest of the season and to a lesser extent. I kept thinking about those times in our lives when someone that you care about deeply wants to join an activity or join a club that is without you, and you wanna be happy that they seem like they really found out what's gonna make their life great. But you're thinking I don't know what do I go to that club? I'm going to be a member in that club or like are you where are you going to fit in that story? So looking ahead here. I mean, it's not totally official. I guess yet about how much more better call. So we're gonna have I think there's been one suggestion from June. Carlos Zito that will get the fifth and sixth or whatever, but that there might be some symmetry in the number of episodes between breaking bad in better. Call saul. But one question that's always been. We assume because it leads into breaking bed that we know where Jimmy ends up, we know where my ends up and few others of these that guy. Who come in and out Gus Gus fring? Yeah. We don't know about him if she even exists in the breaking bad universe. And so, I guess my question is, as we look ahead to the weather. It's one or two more seasons of better call Saul. I mean, do you personally already know where Chem ends up now? I just read the script sex, and I don't know what happens in seven. We know they don't do nobody's coming. And then, again long those lines it really. I mean it seems like there's only so many. I can't even tell you if I'm insects or seven I'm just yeah. I'm not allowed to. But I mean okay so, but in the longer term in terms of as this eventually feeds into breaking bad, you're either dead or you're alive and with Jimmy, but we haven't seen you because we don't know much about Jimmy now. Sol's home life or you're not you're live. And you're not with. Yeah. So in your own view, what would be the best and worst case scenario knowing your character. What's infinitely interesting? Is that all three of those could be considered a tragedy? Yeah. I've kind of given up on guessing, or even hoping the good thing is that the one guarantee as in Peter gold and Vince Gilligan whole writing stuff's hands. They haven't disappointed me for one second yet of making the perfect choices for to keep evolving keep growing. And she is not talk about, you know, going from point A point B Kim's, not the same character. She was when we first met her, and what was there before that? And what what's coming up that was always there versus what's now happening in real time in his new does she effect Jimmy or does Jimmy affect her, or do they fact each other? Somebody asked me wants to like would Jimmy becomes all and Kim end up wherever Kim's gonna end up if they had never met what is beautiful creatures where it's the combination of the two of you. And what is independent paths that couldn't have been altered. Anyway. And I never know in any way can't. But I think I think that any versus eight and destiny vs free will are questions. They play with a lot on the show and yeah, I'm sorry. They don't have a specific answer other than like I've become a little more at peace with if you're going to die on a show, it might as well be this one, 'cause it's gonna be tax if she's going to stay that's so complex. And I can't possibly figure out how you would write that. But thank God. That's not my job. And if she's going to go, it's she's alive. But she leaves what is that about? And still what will she become like you wonder if to shreds her or such a free basically, because or does she destroy yourself? Yeah. Or center cell free don't know or does she straight him, right? Well, we see that he's got his issues and breaking. That's Saul Goodman is a man man with some. Last two this has been quite an interesting year. I don't know chronologically when things were shot, but beyond better call Saul. We saw you as Michelle who is the Amy of Hugh Laurie's presidential candidate, Tom James, on veep, the last season of, which is great as well. And tactics terrific Riddick. We saw you as a woman fending off men who have gone nuts in the aftermath of a meteor shower in the not all men episode of the twilight zone, reboot on CBS all access, and Ginette the trashy cousin Patricia Arquette's character on Hulu is the act limited series, that is going over very well as well. So how did this all happen in one year, and any other? Yes, I also did. And independent film written Android bright, Christopher winter Bauer called werm, w y that was the feature links film based on his extremely well received short from Sundance, and it's so beautiful and funny and strange and interesting and unique. I love that. And then I went to Cape Town, South Africa to film, the sequel to inside did inside with who's the record. It's still spike Lee's property, but m j Bassett directed it, and it is universal fourteen forty for net flicks. Okay. Amila mean and Roxanne Mckee or the other. Yeah. It was great. It was great talking a lot of stuff in. It was a lot of variety in John Rowe and tone to which was fun. Yes. All right. Last question, just sort of looking ahead, one thing that has got to be nice as I feel like your performance better. Call Saul has gotten more pre for this season than maybe not that it wasn't appreciated for the earlier three. But like my senses, they've stepped up in recognize it more the season. And it's interesting because speaking of parallels with breaking bed. It wasn't until the fourth season of bring bed that Anna Gunn really started to get not only EMMY nomination, but was actually sort of getting that same kind of. Well, she's, we need to pay more attention. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I guess I just wonder I thought she was brilliant from day one, but she took a lot of shit. I remember from that character. And anyway, just this particular moment in time for the where you are in the show and the career and all of it picture any thoughts. That kind of. Well, not about the attentions just like that. This is where this whole thing that we've been talking about for this conversation has led. You know, how do you feel about this moment really grateful? I mean, there's also what four hundred shows on the air now so you could be doing the best work of your life. And no one knows what channel it's on. There's I mean you can get lost pretty easily. So I feel incredibly fortunate that Vincent Peters, names and people wanting to follow whatever they make, and then the mothership breaking bad being one of the best shows of all time was our launch pad. There's no doubting the fortune that we gained from that because people bothered to watch. So we're not in a vacuum. And so I don't forget that I know that there's great work on that struggles to have on it. So we're very lucky to have that. And then beyond that, I just feel I guess, even more more and more gratitude season. Forbes challenging it was really challenge. Aging in the way that I hoped the craft of acting was going to be, when a very first started it makes me dig deep and it makes me have to really test myself and to get better. And then I get to work with people like Bob Odenkirk can Patrick Fabian, and the whole rest of my costs. They're just generous and genuine and I don't know what to gratitude. When people start talking about, like, oh, she deserves critical claims. She deserves a wards. I'd be lying if I didn't say that, like fills nice after doing this for twenty five years. Yeah, it feels amazing. But also a dangerous thing to, to feel hopeful. Or to think like oh, was I crap when I wasn't being? There is all the this all while cardinal. But, you know, I mean I'm being challenged to be better and better make myself better and better actor. And then I'm being given tools that are these scripts. So it kind of doesn't get better. And so if the result of that really is grabbing some people and people are so responded to my character. People wanna talk about my character like she's a real him being on time, and that I gotta tell you, that's an amazing experience will thank you for doing so appreciate okay? Thanks for having me. Thanks very much for tuning into awards chatter. We really appreciate you taking the time to do that, and would really appreciate you taking a minute more. Subscribe to our podcast for free on I tunes or your podcasts up and to leave us a rating as well. If you have any questions comments or concerns, you can reach me via Twitter at Twitter dot com slash fiber. And you can follow all of my coverage between us odes at T HR dot com slash the race. Finally, be sure to check out the other podcasts that are part of the Hollywood reporter's podcast network, all of which are excellent Lesley Goldberg, and Daniel, Feinberg, TV's, top five set the branch and chip pope's. It happened in Hollywood Carolyn Giardina 's behind the screen, and Josh wiggles series, regular on behalf of all of us at the Hollywood reporter. Thanks for tuning in.

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Better Call Saul's showrunner tells us everything about the show's amazing finale

I Think You're Interesting

1:05:22 hr | 2 years ago

Better Call Saul's showrunner tells us everything about the show's amazing finale

"Support for this podcast and the following message comes from smart water, not satisfied being like other brands. Smart water looked up at the clouds and said, I wonder if we can one up mother nature for a pure crisper water and guess what? They did smart water vapor distilled for purity, electrolytes for taste. Hello and welcome to. I think you're interesting. I'm Todd van der. If the I ninety interesting and the guest we have on today his show I wanted. Want so badly. I don't know. I didn't want it to be bad, but like I was so skeptical of it going in. I think a lot of people were, but let me set the scene, the show we're talking about is better call Saul. It's a spin off of breaking bad, breaking bad as a beloved television classic that people love people watch people devour. People watch over and over again. It was the show where I, I loved it all the way through. I felt a little less excited about the last episode than some people selected. Didn't like make me stop loving the show. But definitely it was like I'm ready for breaking bad to be done. And then you find out there's going to be a spin off in its better call Saul on. It's about the lawyer song Goodman, and there's all these sort of complicated layers of he some other person, Jimmy Gill, and like I was skeptical. And if you go back and read my very first review, like it's a positive review, skeptical, positive review, but over the course that first season and then the second third seasons, especially like, I really grew to love this show. Oh, to like really think of it as one of the best shows on television, the best dramas on television and a show that digs into big questions about morality and why we are the way we are in psychology and philosophy in a way that is similar to the series that birthday breaking bad, but also very different, their companion series. I think in the best possible way, which is that they're examining some of the same questions, but they look at it from perspectives that are just sort of diverse enough that you get a full view of these big questions about like, why do we do good? Why do we do that? What is doing good? What is doing that? And the show better call Saul just finished its fourth season. I'm hoping it runs for a couple more, you know, maybe even more than that, but it was really terrific season of television and ended in a finale that I'm not going to spoil for you, but really just like everything about it was so satisfying to me and if you've watched it, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't put our. Are you doing? So we have the show runner and the co, creator Peter Gould on today, he worked on breaking bad, and then he co created and show runs better, call Saul, but we're gonna be talking about just sort of the show in general. So if you've never seen it before, we're going to be talking about the show and some of these higher level questions at digs into. And then at the end, we're going to get into a spoiler discussion of season four. So if you don't want to be spoiled, you can tune out at that point. We'll give you ample warning, but this is a really great discussion about one of TV's best shows. So even if you haven't seen it stick around because Peter's a really thoughtful guy, and I think you're going to have a really fun time listening to our thoughts about better call Saul, and then you should go watch like this, go, go, pull it up and watch it. What else do you have to do. Heater. Thank you for joining us now is a pleasure. So this season we just completed season four on Monday of this episode's going out on Thursdays then kind of is how the time line works. So we just completed season for and one of the things that I find interesting about the show is like you are increasingly having to write to what we know about these characters from breaking bad, the show you spun off from and I'm wondering how you determine that sort of that delicate balance of, yes, we need to fill in this blank spot in their back story versus this. The audience can probably just figure out on its own boy. That's a that's a great quote we, that's you're talking about one of the main things that we argue about. I don't argue about but Rangel about in the writer's room. How important is it that we hit this point or that point? And I think one of the fun things about the show is the way we fill in some of the questions that breaking bad raises, but. I don't think that's the focus of the show. I think the show is really about these. These characters, Jimmy McGill and Kim Wexler, and Mike Roman trout. And we try to make sure that everything that we put in the show has to do with their journeys in their progress and that we're not just throwing in breaking bad stuff for the fun of it. You know, you do though have to like, you can't just be like this is a parallel universe where breaking that never happened, you know, like, do you have you ever been? I don't wanna say frustrated, but if you ever found yourself at a place where you were like, you know, we wanted to do something, but the original series contradicts at something constantly constantly. There are so many characters that we'd like to bring in. You know, is it possible that saw meets or the Jimmy meets this person? Ted Benecke. Could could Jimmy meet Ted Benecke well, no, because on breaking bad, there was a scene between Jimmy and Ted, and it was very clear. They had never met before more low Jimmy actually saw and Ted. So it's a yet constantly were coming up with ideas that we get very excited about briefly. And then sometimes they get shot down that happened on breaking bad too. You know, we had just thinking back, I'm breaking bad. We had a scene between te'o and te'o in the cousins and the Gus fring. And then later on we decided we wanted to delve into the backstory between these characters. And so we said, is it possible? Is it possible that Teo Hector head shot max who is of course on breaking bad, of course, if people have much breaking bad. It'd be incomprehensible to them. He was ended was a character we had to look at because we were doing a scene that took place before the scene that we'd already shot we had to think about is, is this possible. So sometimes we end up assuming things about the show and then watching the scenes in the writer's room in finding out, wait, that's not true. Or in one case, there's a a bunch of dialogue that actually wrote for for breaking bad kidding. Thank God dropped. That established all sorts of things about salts background. Oh, well, you got lucky there. That's true. But the question is delete. Do we have to adhere to deleted scenes? Yeah. What do you think? I don't think so. I feel like if Frazier can get away with him saying his dad was dead on chairs, and then his dad's very much alive on Frazier, and he's just like, I just lied about it because I was mad at him. I think he can get away with anything. Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, that that's a hell of a show. So it's good, never Frazier, it's good enough for us. One of the things like, how do you, how do you keep the all straight because you don't have like game of thrones levels of mythology like you don't need to remember what happened five thousand years ago in this universe. But I mean, maybe you do. I don't know, maybe like the pre Columbian like whatever is important to the history of this show. But do you have like a? Do you have like a whiteboard to have like a like a guy who remembers everything like how? How do you keep straight now? The two shows that where the timeline has to sort of roughly match up. We have a lot of brilliant people with very flexible minds. Especially area Levin, who's our writer's assistant an aerial, can she has an encyclopedic knowledge of the show and she can also call up. She has all the scripts for both shows and so she can do these very fast searches looking for things. And it's very rare that we have to wait for more than a couple of minutes to try to see, you know if we've mentioned something before, we've mentioned how old Mike son was when he died. We can find that out pretty quickly and it gets very confusing. I mean the now we're in a situation. It's like rubik's cube. It's we're in a situation where we've also established things it in different timelines, dabbling things in the during the time line breaking bad that actually take place on better call Saul. We have this gene storyline which takes place after breaking bad, which is when Saul Goodman becomes gene, tack, Vic. And he's he's a scapegoat to Omaha, Nebraska, and it's really hard to keep all these things straight. But I think one of the pleasures hopefully of watching the show is the feel that the world of the show works that it has a consistency and that we're not going to take back things, say things and then take them back or change the rule. Suddenly we do our damndest to play by the rules that we've established are ready and and so far we've been able to, but it gets really confusing Nino when lost find landed somebody edited it so that it was in chronological order. And I hope somebody does that was the whole Assago because I think like like some of the start, like I believe that better call Saul would both be the first scene you saw in the in the breaking bad talk. I end the last seen probably I don't know. You know, that might very well be what's true right now. Yeah. Yeah. One of one of the things I wanted to sort of ask about is I'm interested in the development process of the show in unite talked about it before, but it was long. It was strained for a while. You guys kinda thought maybe it was a comedy, you know, and yet for as funny character as Jimmy slash, Saul can be this show is and I don't wanna call one of the saddest on TV because that's going to turn a whole bunch of people off, but there's a real weight to it's tragedy that you won't find on a lot of other shows. So tell me about kind of finding what the show is going to be in then finding the tone. That's right. Let's not forget to mention that it's funny in action pack, not just not just a profound slog. Yeah, hope. Yeah. I hope there are a lot of great jokes. There are a lot of great action sequences, but yeah, like like when you walk away from a season of this show, you feel that way. You know, you know, I think the key for us has been to follow the story and to follow the really defile the characters, and to be honest as we can about who who these folks. Are and what they wanted a particular moment and not try to shove them into things that we our preconceptions. And I will say that, you know when we started, I think we used to say that you know breaking bad was eighty percent drama and twenty percent comedy was going to be eighty percent, comedy, twenty percent drama. Boy, did that turn out to be. Having said that we have some secret weapons and one of our secret weapons not so secret really is that Bob Odenkirk is one of the funniest people around and the fact that Bob can switch from scenes that are actually kind of silly. And I mean that a good way there funny in light and playful, and then he can go to very dramatic scene, very abruptly. It's remarkable. I don't think anybody else can do it quite the way Bob does because he has those sketch comedy chops, but it's he's not doing sketch on the show. He never is. He's always Jimmy, but he can layer on top of Jimmy, this sort of this. This almost sketch comedy element in. I don't know how he does it. We right to it. And I think that's the other trick is that we, we try to write to not just are ideas about the character. But the characters as we've actually seen seen them on the show and we've learned so much about them. Now having said that going back to your, I think what was your original quake? The original question was the original question was about how how the show was conceived. I think it was faded from the beginning just because Vince an I and you know, lucky enough to get a bunch of the other riders from breaking bad. There's not a preponderance anymore, but there are a few at the beginning who were on breaking bad, it's kind of inevitable that the chemistry between us and the universe that we were working in. It was gonna have a tone of its own. Having said that, I think the DNA of both breaking bad better call. Saul is all wrapped up in the main character. And I think that's what makes specially breaking bad unusual. You see a lot of dramas which are conceived originally as on psalm. Bulls and Vinci's idea for breaking bad was always that would start out very much as wall story and then branch out become on samba will. And I think that everything that happened in breaking bad really grew out of his conception of the character of Walter white and the things that we learned about Walter white as we went, I think the same is true on this show except on this show if course we have two characters. We have Jimmy McGill. Well, actually there's way more than two, but but two characters who were, I would say, carry the DNA at least at the start. It was Jimmy. And then of course, Mike played by the fabulous Jonathan banks. You mentioned, I want to kind of go back to something you talked about, which is, you know, Bob Odenkirk has these sketch comedy chops this cast, and the castor break met are just full of people who are great at comedy, like racy horn has done so much great comedy, Michael McKean, of course, even Patrick Fabian stunned some really funny stuff over his career. What is it about putting people known for comedy. Dramatic roles that you think works because this has been this has been a truism over time. Is that like people who are good at comedy can often be really great drama too. I think it's as simple as that. We just said. I think it was always Vinci's theory on on breaking bad because if you can do comedy, you can probably do drama and no one's better sample than Bryan Cranston who went from Malcolm in the middle to breaking bad. And I think it was a great creative leap, and it was also very courageous events and also of Sony AMC to to cast Brian. But he's, you know, it's in arguably a fantastic actor and very funny. I just think that's been baked into our approach right from the beginning. I think there's a magical thing that happens when you add comedy drama, because the the comedy makes drama. Feel deeper and drama makes the comedy funnier, and it's we're not. A comedy, not in the sense of veep are jokes are not those kinds of jokes, but I think the show is funny and I think that a lot of it comes from the moving back and forth between the two tones and thank God. It's worked so far. I just see so many TV dramas nowadays that don't have any levity, and it was worth a couple of years ago, but, but now you know, I feel like we're coming out of it a little bit, and I think about like there was a time when I was having huge fight with my wife, like one of the worst fights we've ever had and I was cracking jokes like I was a character in a sitcom and like she was too. It's like, I feel like there is that that thing that when we get into these dark places like sometimes are most human responses to try to be as funny as possible. But I think that's, I think that's completely true. And I hope you guys you're getting along better now. I mean, that was like ten years ago still hanging out together. That's good. If you have the it's true. I mean, comedy, laughter is part of life in sometimes the only response you can have to. The most disastrous things to smile and make a joke and that you know, we always see that in people who are under the worst circumstances. You know, obviously everybody's different. Every circumstance is different, but I agree, I think, I think, well, I always thought the sopranos was incredibly funny. Hilarious is not really, you know, the wire too. Also, I delayed for years before watch the wire. We my wife and I only watched last couple of years because people said, well, this is this the great work of dramatic art of the twenty first century, and it is so entertaining. And so funny. But this is the lad for the wire right here. Watch if you haven't watched it. You should. I think that we TV critics have a tendency to like, you know, adjust our ties and make everything sound like very serious in like a lot of the time, the best dramas are also the best comedies in kind of vice versa. Like I look at a show like, I don't know if you watch us the good place and they turn out plot twists like some of my favorite dramas in just like so many. Exciting ways like we have this weird Kadhamy between the two and television that doesn't really need to exist. Sometimes I, you know, it's it's hard to write about things, but I think we get mixed up between thing saying that something is serious and something as dour and I to me the the literature in the movies that excite me the most have a mixture of tones. Right? And you know, so that's we aim for, I think, yeah, I think there are things that have serious themes but have levity, you know or not. And I think I think that's really smart. We said about the difference between series dour because like you can have a serious conversation, you know, full of jokes like we were talking about, but I want to sort of talk about you co created the show with with Mr. Gilgen Vince Gilligan, and you know he's involved this season while, but he's kind of step back now. And when you go in on any TV show, taking over the show, runner is a daunting prospect, and I want to know what you learned from him that made you sort of moving forward. On the show made you feel comfortable like you knew what you were doing even as it's a job that nobody can ever know what they're doing. You know, I think I learned everything from Vince, you know, working on breaking bad, he is was the greatest Showrunner training program anybody could ask for because Vince he's got a vision. Let's use that creaky term. He's got a very specific way of looking at things, but he is complete, opened hearing about other ideas and he ran the show and we run this one very much for writer. Producers, the writers on this show go set the the writers produce their own episodes to a great degree. Although we have a wonderful producing staff to the fun for me. The thing that I always wanted to do from probably before high school on was just to be involved. I didn't know what I wanted to do in film. I just wanted to do everything. And the wonderful thing about this job is that you get the stick your nose into everybody's business. You get to play. Play and to have fun and to experiment with the greatest cast the greatest production designer. The the, the greatest sound team immaturity, and it's, that's the fun of it was incredibly daunting and Vince Gilligan, I don't wanna use any overused terms. He's a very unique guy, and he is he is brilliant and also very generous and seeing him do the job. One of the things I realize that you don't have to be an asshole to do good work, and that was one of the things I think always worried me about getting into a job like that because I don't want to be an asshole. It's not something that comes easily to me. It's not in my is not in my easy vocab. I'm sure I have been asked hall too many people, but it's not myself image anyway. And Vince is somebody who is very, as I said, very generous and open at the same time as is a terrific leader and so getting to work with him on breaking bad. Was incredible. Of course I started off on breaking bad. I had never been in a writers from before. I'd only ever written by myself or with a single writing partner. I never worked on a series before. I'd only worked on longer pieces and it was just wonderful. I just loved every bit of it. And then since we created salt together and we ran together, we were joined at the hip in the first two seasons, especially. And so you know, you just gain these things through osmosis or us. I don't even know how you say. There you go. You you gain, you gain a lot of that. And of course we put together along with, you know, the producer's like Melissa Bernstein put together just a wonderful team. And part of the part of the trick to show running is to have an idea about where to go and have have an idea about what the show is, but to also be open enough that other people can bring their own creativity to it. And that's how we run the writers room. It's how we work with directors. We try to. We try to have a very specific idea of what the point of every scene is, and we have ideas sometimes about the visuals of every scene, but how the director gets from point eight point be or from a to z is is something that we work together on, and it's so it's like to think, I don't know. It's a long winded way saying, I mean, look, I had insomnia, nights sweats, terrible nerves, but also the fact is that Vince is around, you know, if I need his input. On something. He's very, very valuable for that. You can just text I can text them or call him or sometimes he's in the office. Yeah, yeah. Talking about that. What's at time when sort of early may be in the show when you had kind of an idea of something you wanted somebody else came in and said, I think this would work and you're like, yes, that's better. I know it happens a million times on every TV show, but like people are often thrown that happens. Well, one of the best examples I can think of is episode to await LaRussa Kondracke easy was the director of that episode. We had as an opening a scene wonderful seeing that Tom schnauzer had written a very visual scene, which was about one of these ice cream trucks coming over the US border, and it gets examined and taken apart and nothing's found. And then it gets the other side of the border and the driver gets out and recovers a gun and you realize, oh, this is a guy who works for Hector Salamanca and LaRussa contract. He came in and she pitched us. She said, what if this is what if the whole sequence at the border is all one shot? And I don't know if she brought up touch of evil, the Orson Welles film. But that was on that was on our minds and I was a little bit nervous about it. But we said, you know. It's pretty cool. Let's do it in the wonderful thing about having a director like that with a such a wonderful. I said, just stronger. To'real sense is that inspires everyone who works on the show. And so we had the whole crew got very excited about doing this immense single take the goes that goes over the Mexican border that goes past all these trucks in you end up seeing inside the truck. It was very complex shot. The took an entire day to do and also, you know, we had had some digital trucks and whatnot and take some things away. But that's a perfect example of a director, having a great idea and topping what we had in the script, things like that happen. Literally, it's wall to wall in the writer's room because when you ask the question, my first thought was something that happened like two hours ago that I can't talk about because theoretically it's going to end up in season five, I don't wanna do any foil all. I don't want to do any fourteen month premature spoilers. But you know, that's the thing about our creative collaboration is that you venture something that's not quite finished. Sometimes the example that I always think of with this is actually on breaking bad because breaking bad. We knew we had this character Tortuga who was going to be a decapitated and then said how we're going to reveal this decapitation and Vincent. I have this just this image of the head moving through tall grass. And then somebody else said, what is this? This head is on top of tortoise. This is all a d. a on and we're all very excited. And then George masters, one of the other is that and then it blows up and we all said, no, that's too much. But no, it was right. Yes, exactly what that's exactly what happened on the show, and it's. A feeling of that's the thing I love about television is that you feel like you're on a team and it's everyone's working together and for a writer, it's a wonderful feeling because as I said before, you get to have your say in all the different areas of filmmaking somebody who had previously written by yourself and writing is, you know, the stereotype is writing is a very solitary process, which it is to some degree. You always have to work with an editor of some sort. But for most writers, it is you sit in a room and you type somewhere words up in. It's very different in television. So like how quickly did you sort of adapt to enjoying working with a bunch of people immediately the sim walked into the room. It was terrifying actually the first week because I was not sure what was expected of me and Vince walked in the first day and he had the second episode of breaking because the first episode of breaking bad or have been written shot. They had the first episode of the season or card in on a board, and Vince has this. Extremely precise handwriting, and he had it laid out on this this cork board, and it was beautiful. There were some changes made after that, but it it all made perfect, lucid sense. And it was exciting. It was. It was a really thrilling episode had great act out s- great character pieces in dialogue and everything. It was all there on that board. And my first thought was, oh, I'm going to. He's going to send me home for the weekend supposed to come back with that, and I didn't understand that we were all going to work on these things together. Once I understood that it was just a blast. I think the part that wasn't a blasted I was writing the actual scripts which because the other scripts were. So I wanna say fucking. You can say they were so fucking good. I remember reading the the pilot breaking bad is a great great episode. But then I remember reading Vince wrote the first three episodes himself and reading those scripts it you just couldn't put them down and then petty Lynn wrote the next one after that. And then George masterless who is just an incredible writer wrote that episode that introduced to go Salamanca and I felt like there was this train coming down the track. And also as time goes on, one of the things that happens in television is the later you are in the lineup, the less time you have to write the script, right? So early on, it's just the way it works. You end up with less and less. So I kept on looking at the calendar and how many days I was going to have to write my first script. And I, you know, I started shooting my nails a little bit. So when I turned it in and Vince was happy with it and ended up being the season ender for the first season, which was not the intention, which is another story altogether, that was a real thrill in a was was very affirming. And boy, I'll tell you as a screenwriter, nothing beats writing something on Tuesday and having them shoot it on Monday just to get to see Bryan Cranston dean Norris do a scene performance seeing that you've written. It's just it's a thrill. I, I heard once a Vince gave a talk or something. He was saying that early in the show, you know you, the only one has the idea of the show in your head and you kind of need to teach all the writers how to do it. And then gradually, that becomes the rubric. Everybody operates under Enna's. New writers come in that can be taught, you know, whatever. I'm wondering what I'm better call Saul, like what is the thing that, like if I was going to join your writer's room, I might think, okay, this is how they write the show that like is sort of the opposite of that. Like what's a, what's a rule of writing better call Saul that maybe you haven't even had to articulate. Oh, what a great question. I think the thing that would surprise you about the writer's room was how little time we spend thinking of cool stuff and how much time we spend trying to understand what the hell is going on with the characters and how to express it. That's the big hurdle. And right now, this is airing this podcast is area after season finale. Yeah. One of the things that we're talking about a lot is is what's going on in Kim Wexler head. How does she interpret who. What just happened at the end of at the end of episodes, four, ten. And we thought we knew when we, by the way, when we wrote the episode, we thought we knew, but then you always go back and then reexamine it. You know, it's funny, I it so much of it is trying to understand people and to relate it to your own experience and you'd be surprised at how much you know we, we were just talking about your fight with your wife, how much we ended up talking about things like that and think about things in our own lives and how we feel attached or how we think Jimmy feels attached in what his reaction is to her. It's a, it's a lot of that. It's a surprising amount of of just trying to understand the psychology not in some big, broad sense, although there's that too, but just a moment to moment. What is she thinking? Right this second. What is he thinking? Right this second. And then once you know that, then you start saying, so what does he do and or if he thinks. This is the way forward, what's his plan? What's going to happen? And those discussions are actually go a lot faster usually than the psychology problems. Usually if we don't, if we get stuck, it's usually because we don't understand the people fully. So that's that would be I know that sounds kind of airy fairy, but that is that is the fundamental of it. And the other thing is the most useful thing in the writers room for us often is to somebody coming up with some idea out of left field, especially if it's based on something that's already happened on the show. Yeah. In other words, it's fun to talk about. I'd love to see this happen. There are scenes that I pitch every season between specially Mike and Mike and Jimmy, there are these elaborate sequences. I'll say this happens and that happens in this happens in that, then we'll, we'll smile about that or people will smile and nod. You know, some respectfully or forbearance, and then we'll get back to the real, the real nitty gritty, which is how to get from point a point be and what is what is that the greatest thing is when somebody says, you know what? I always wondered. I mean, I think the big breakthrough on our on this particular show was when we said to ourselves, well, we know what Chuck is Jimmy. We know what it's like being Chuck's brother. 'cause Chuck is kind of overwhelming. He's brilliant and he makes Jimmy 'field. Small. Jimmy also feels like he wants to take care of Chuck and we we understood all those things very, very quickly. But then when we saw Michael McCann playing the part, we wait a minute, what does what does it feel like to be Chuck and what does he think of Jimmy? Because we didn't know. We didn't know. We didn't know when we started the show that Chuck had sandbag Jimmy's career. We didn't know that it was there in the pilot. If you look at it now it seems really to me, it seems very. Clear, but we didn't understand it well. And so a lot of what we do is going back and somebody saying, you know, I wondered what you know what was happening in so-and-so's head when he or she did that. And sometimes it'll be, you know, a character will of done something and maybe it was short shortcut for us. We'll say, well, why? Why? Why? And those are. Those are all the great questions. You know, TV in some ways kind of spoiled me when I go see movies because I saw the new star is born and I really want like I was like, I wanna see every step of her career, and that would take forty five hours like they need to skip over the stuff the but on TV you don't have to, but on better call Saul. Obviously, you do a lot of that process stuff. A lot of that revealing the character slowly, but also you do take these leaps. Sometimes you do jump forward in time. How do you decide when something can sort of be set off to the side? We don't need to see that on a win. It's going to be like deeply revealing of character. I think it's especially if we've seen it already move. We've seen something happened already. We try to short handed the second time around if you've if you've experienced it once and we always ask ourselves, how is this time different? You know, of Jimmy is scamming if Jimmy Kimmel scamming. Why are we doing this again? What? What is different here? Why does this move things forward? And hopefully we come up with answers that makes sense to the HUD, but that's that we think about that. We think about that alive. Also, what's interesting to us in what hasn't been done before. When we started the show of inside, we're both really worried about doing the legal show Necas we're not lawyers plus there's so many great legal shows written by people who have law backgrounds and so many wonderful courtroom scenes. And the way we kinda placated ourselves was they will. It's not a law show. It's a crime show, but it's it is a law show to sometime. So one of the things that we try to do is to find the parts of the law that you're not seeing as much of. We, we've all seen a lot of wonderful courtroom summations, but the truth is as we did our big research trip to downtown LA and we, we all sat in court for I sat in court probably a pretty much a week and a lot of the writer's room. We all sat in for a couple of days. I think what you find is that you know most the time in court nothing's happening. It's a lot of the actual transactions happen out of the courtroom or out of sight or backstage, and we wanted to show that part. And so that helps us when we think about process. That's what we think about. And we also think about what does it mean to this? What does it mean to this character? Now the working theory is that something is very, very important to the character, then it can be very, very important to the audience if we dramatize it right. And I think that helps us because it keeps us from chasing stakes. You know this, one of the things that you hear from sometimes notes that people give is one of the. Stakes want steaks, and if you're constantly elevate you raising the stakes, you know you quickly get everything has to be life or death. You know, we have to. It has to be the hero's life or death. Oh, that's not enough. It's gotta be the hero, small family. No, that's not enough. It's going to be the country. It's going to be the world and you keep topping yourself in until it loses humanity loses our ability to really get under the skin of the character. So I'll tell you that's one of the things that gratifies me the most is that I hear more about Kim Wexler really than any of the characters in what she has at stake is not life or death. It's her career that she's worked so damn hard for in his so important to her. And I think it might prove the point because that's an example of operating with stakes that are just very important to the person, but you won't like shootdown that may become has to diffuse a nuclear bomb in season five like that could be a really great. I'm looking, I'm looking well. I'm looking well, you know, we do have a very, I haven't taught. I haven't. We haven't talked about it, but very Connecticut side of the show with a lot of action. And didn't you do wonder what will happen if some of the characters you don't live in that world get involved in that world? Oh, no, no, I. So we're going to head into the spoiler discussion soon. So if you're not wanting to hear that, you know turn this off of five minutes or so. Yeah, I'll I'll give you a clear warning. One of the things that's interesting about this season is you have a lot of characters in your Shoghi. You used some of them very sparingly, and I'm wondering, you know, when it comes to somebody like Howard who doesn't necessarily overlap with everybody all the time or Nacho who doesn't overlap with everybody all the time, how do you sort of decide we're going to work this person in this way? You know, that's what a great quite the truth is that. If we had our way, we'd have a lot more a lot more Howard ham and a lot more Nacho Varga. You know, it's really because we follow the story, the story of of Jimmy and Mike and Kim, you know, into some extent, it is the story of Howard Nacho and certainly Patrick Fabian and Michael Mando are just powerhouse actors and they they can do anything that we can dream up for them, but it's it's, you know, we wanna keep some focus to the show. I think that's one of the reasons why the show works. So it's it's, it's always a balancing act in television. Sometimes you can get into the situation where there's an obligation for whatever reason that we have to have a scene with each character in each episode. So it always becomes sort of a round Robin, and that I think is is just not gonna work for this show the truth. Is that we hope we give. I think you tweeted this. I did. I think you tweeted as wait a minute. We hope we give them good juicy, challenging material that's meaningful to the characters and hopefully actors to into the audience when they do have seen. So it's a balance. It's it's, it's not easy because also the other thing that happens is that you have this great feeling of affection for these actors and you wanna, you know, I always wanting to give give these these actors something great to do in a good reason to be an Albuquerque. Every once in a while, you know, there's, you know, producers will say, can we tell this actor that they won't be needed? You know, for x episode or why episode in it's, it's great for the actor to know that because they, you know, they can take another job or or or do something else with their time. But I hate it like if I had my well, you know, I guess the alternative is to have like ninety five minute episodes. It just doesn't. It just doesn't seem to work for us. Right, right. Typically, we end every episode we're gonna do this in the middle. So people who are to never the spoilers can hear it. We end every episode by asking some of our guests, some of the same questions I'm gonna ask you one of those and then we'll go to the spoiler. So when you finish answering this question, we'll get despoilers and it's a very off the wall question for you. I'm excited to see how you answer it, which is it's the month of Halloween. What is the greatest costume you've ever worn either for Halloween or for some other purpose? Like you were in a stage show in college? I don't know. I am not a costume person, I guess not. I'm trying to remember. I think when I was a kid I was well, I when I was a kid, I was a robot probably my best. My best costume took her. I grew up in Manhattan and so you couldn't really trick or treat at the time. New York is now much more kid friendly at the time that I grew up. It was basically it was madman after that, but it was Manhattan was for was for adults. Kids were barely suffered, so you would go to a friend's apartment and they would maybe making arrangement with a neighbor. So you could. You could go knock on a couple of doors. I took a large box that was an, I drew a robot on it, and and I had a light that blinked that I could push a button, whether it was, I thought it was pretty slick at the. It's amazing. You should take it out and wear it again. Yeah. Support for this podcast on the following message comes from smart water, not satisfied being like other brands. Smart water looked up at the clouds and said, I wonder if we can up mother nature for a pure crisper water and guess what they did. This is the kind of water that regular water gets jealous of. It's the water that refreshes like no other brand, try it. Smart water vapor distilled for parity electrolytes for taste. Hey, folks. Let's listen to a message from our friends at the eater podcast start to sail. Hi, this is Aaron patinkin CEO of of unle an I'm Natasha case CEO of cool house and together or the co hosts of start to sail. We talk to entrepreneurs about what it takes to build a business from launch to exit will really talk about the experience in the trenches, the most valuable lessons learned to get them out of there. Don't miss an episode subscribe to our show today, and thanks to smart water for being the founding sponsor of start to sail. So we're doing the spoilers now we're talking about spoilers tune out if you haven't seen season four and don't want to be spoiled by everybody. I want to start with the very end of the finale which is, you know, Jimmy sang, he's gonna go practice lawn under another name. I wonder what name it could be and you end on Kim, you don't. You don't end on his decision. You end on her standing there, all alone. Sort of like forlorn is the word I wanna use, but maybe that's the wrong word us. Tell me about our finally arriving at that moment of, okay. Here comes Saul Goodman lawyer. I think Kim is for Lauren. I think she's shaken. I think she's. For us. The big moment in maybe the biggest moment in that episode. I don't know. One of the biggest moments is that the scene that comes right before that which is Jimmy statement to the, yes, the bar and he Jimmy gets very emotional. He makes his speech which I find very sincere in real and about his brother in a way that he's never spoken about truck ever. And the board is one of the board members who get teary eyed and Kim, unbeknownst Jimmy, 'cause she's sitting behind him. Kim also gets gets teary eyed. She gives misty eyed and he gets choked up in. He has to has to end the speech, and then she finds out. And I think in that moment, at least for me, Kim feels really close to Jimmy and they've had a lot of trouble lately. There's been. They had an argument in the previous episode that was. Just last rating it was. It was a really tough one. It was one where a lot of things that had gone said, get sad. And in this moment in the bar meeting, I think she feels that he's made maybe some kind of breakthrough or at least that he's back to the Jimmy. She fell in love with and then they leave the bar and he reveals to her that it was an act. This is what he tells her. He says, was all an act. I saw the matrix. I, you know, I made you see that idiot crying. And of course she was crying too. So he he, he deceived the board least this is the way it looks. He deceived the board and he deceived her to. And then she immediately finds out, wait a minute. He's gonna. He's he's calling the clerk Honey. And he's, he's going to do business under another name and it feels like I think to her like he's made some kind of shift that she doesn't quite understand and I almost feel like she's got a premonition and of course, anybody who's watched breaking bad has a premonition too, but I don't think she knows any. I don't think there's anything extra dia jedinak about it, but I think she she feels she has the sense of something big, his changed in him and that was that was a moment that we were working our way up to for quite a while. It didn't become clear to us at that was where we're going until pretty much mid mid season, but the more we talked about it, the more it felt like that was the right moment for him to seem to deal with with his feelings about Chuck. Having said that, I don't know that he's, he says, it's all an act. I, I don't know if I believe him. Yeah, Jimmy has learned to. A us real emotion to his own nefarious ends at which is after all, that's, that's what acting is, isn't it? He's, he's a great actor like he's dry. I think he's drawing on something real Jimmy. Jimmy is. Yeah, I think so too, especially it's so inter. It's so much fun in the episode that we start off in the in act one in the graveyard over Chuck's grave. And he literally says, boo, and he's, he's, I think that seems very funny, very dark and very funny. And Bob is hilarious because he's he's doing a put on of grief, but he seems like he's discovered a new ability inside himself as this as this episode goes on, that's how it looks to me. And boy, I think you gotta hand it to Bob Bob Odenkirk and Ray seahorn and Adam Bernstein who directed the episode. And of course, my my co co-writer Thompson house who just. Just knocked this one out of the park now. Yeah, I gotta say he got me Jim Jimmy. Got me. Like I really thought that was sincere like I was like, I, you know, I know he has to become solid some point, but we got five more years Jimmy, trying to be good failing. Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's the other thing that we tried to do is to help you think because there is some real emotion he's having in the episode. He breaks down by himself in the car. Yeah. And so you know, something's going on with this guy and I think his, there's, there's room for argument over over what's going on with Jimmy McGill. This season really established Saul Goodman as a performance in some ways. And I think that's a really interesting direction to take the character. Tell me a little bit about like arriving at that idea of him being performance layered on a real person. I, that's I love a level. You put that. I think that's absolutely true. We. Can't help, but think about this show sometimes in relation to breaking bad and two in breaking bad. So much of what you know Heisenberg was seemed to be Walt feeling like a bad ass. But Saul Goodman is so distant from Jimmy McGill still in some ways that he feels like he must be a character who has devised. And in fact, you know, the first time we meet. So back in breaking bad, he says, you know, the real name's McGill. I just do the Jew thing because all homeboys anyway, visit, he said hall. He has a whole. He has a whole rap about it and you. He's basically saying he's pulling the mask aside and saying, this isn't who I really am. As I was saying earlier, a lot of these things. The answers are often tucked inside episodes and writing that we've already done that. Maybe we haven't looked at carefully enough, right? So it's it's, it is. I think Seoul Goodman is a is a performance. Bob likes to say, Saul Goodman is a ah punk rock choice, which I think has a lot of a liberty to it. This season was really tough because I think for Bob and for us because we made the choice that Jimmy didn't fully understand himself and Jimmy acts out quite a few times in ways that only make real sense if you think will this guy has has things going on underneath the surface that maybe he doesn't fully understand himself. And that was very tricky. That was very tricky because I think it was tough for all of us to understand understand fully what was going on with Jimmy. And I think we hopefully I think I think he got more complicated this season. Billy is what happened. And I think he had to because only complicated person would devise this. Crazy ass character. He becomes, yeah, yeah, we know what happens to Jimmy to some degree. We don't know everything, but we know he ends up Saul Goodman. He goes off and lives in Omaha. Now, presumably, we know what happens to Mike. We know what happens to these characters. The big question hanging over the show is what happens to Kim, and I know you leave room for improvisation, but like do you have in the conversation about like kind of senses of different endings? She could how? Absolutely. We've, we talk about it all the time. I mean, when I say that we it's, it's hard to explain if you're not there because there is. I'd say it's improvised moment to moment which is true some somewhat, but we spend a lot of time talking about, well, what where's what's our end game here has at where does this go? And we have a lot of ideas. But I think the trick is that we're always willing to throw the ideas out and and we're not going to adhere to something just because we had an idea two years ago and we haven't earn. And it or the characters not ready to go there. So it's, you can't lay anything down for sure until you get there. But we definitely have a lot of a lot of very emotional interesting ideas about what's going to happen with Kim, but you know her fate weird thing to say about a fictional character to some extent, her fate is in her own hands. Yeah, I, I had an argument with a friend who's certain that she's gonna just completely destroy her career through the things. She the choices she's making. I was like, no, that's the person that Saul tells Francesca about an episode just know it because there's a flash forward. In that episode, the Mike corner of the show is it's not catching up to breaking bad. You still like four years. I think in the timeline before breaking bad starts, but it is like putting things in place for breaking bad more overtly than I think the Jimmy corner of the show is told me about approaching writing that and how you sort of decided where to end it in the finale with the the final. It feels weird to call the showdown, but the final showdown with Verner. Yeah. We started the show. With a question, I don't think we knew exactly how we were stating it, but the very first episode of better call Saul states a two pronged question one is how does this guy who's Jimmy McGill become Saul Goodman? But it also the question is why for so as banker, trout in a booth? Yeah, parking booth. But then as the season goes on, you start understanding who might Mike is and why he's in Albuquerque and what he's what he's all about. How does that guy become the right hand band to a drug Lord? And how does he become gust Frings button? Men. It's an, it's not as extreme as Jimmy because he doesn't put out a new identity in a new voice in a new way of speaking in moving. But he in a completely different world, but he is a former cop who has we know he has killed for for revenge. And we know he was, he's been war and we know he's, he's taken money. He's been on the take, but he still has a moral code. He still sees the results of his actions pretty damn clearly and takes responsibility for them, which is unusual in this world and on this show. So how does he end up working with christova ring and what this friend need him for and how does that work? And that is what like with Jimmy side of the story. That is the problem. Um, we've set out for ourselves and this season we found out the seemed to have a rejection. He seemed to feel that he couldn't lead. A civilian life in some ways. And he, he ends up working with gusts, but what he's doing with for us is suited to his unique talents because this is a guy who is brilliant at deception and detection, and he's not just a hired killer. Gus has plenty of hired killers, and so the question became, you know, we're still we're still trying to figure this out this question, but he makes a decisive move. It is season because he does. He does kill this guy. Werner Ziegler who is not blameless his like they say, he's in the game, but he is a for all that he's a fairly decent guy in somebody Mike likes, and yet the situation. And I think if you asked Mike, he would say Mike was that he created the situation at his Mike's fault. Mike takes responsibility for the situation and in. In some ways, it's almost mercy killing because he is by killing Werner. He saving Werner's the life of Warner's spouse so it it takes a decisive step forward. And you know, we had a lot of fun with the the super lab and with. I, I, I'm fascinated by how you could possibly build him structure like this. I mean, you're this in may. I may be a lunatic, but I'm fascinated by things like that when I was a kid, I would watch the JAMES BOND movies and you'd see, oh yeah, it was amazing. Ken Adam sets and you say, we'll, how did how did how did lowveld hollow out of all kaneohe and we're all those guys who are working there. And I, I wanted to know how that happened, and that's one of the things that were exploring. I, I once worked at a newspaper job in the town where they're carving the Crazy Horse national monument which is in mountain. They're blowing up to make it like mount Rushmore. And like I just was fascinated with like that whole process and like, could you build a house inside if you really want I get, I get where you're coming from a love. It Lolo kind of comes in. The last few episodes is really establish his presence to see him as a really important force going forward in the show while it Lalla play by Tony, Dalton, these amazing how just he comes in like. Hurricane, and he seems that boy, Tony has such chemistry with Michael Mando and he has such chemistry with with with all anybody anybody encounters. I think I think he's gonna play a significant role on how this works out. And of course, when we first met saw Goodman way back in breaking bad, he was terrified of somebody named Lalo and now we've met him in, I think you see why he'd be terrified of him. So one of the things that I I'm hoping for I'm hoping we can achieve is that his path is going to cross with that of Saul Goodman. How do you think about using gusts? Because I always want more gusts and I realize you don't want to like kill that characters. The characters vibe is kind of mysterious, but like I especially want more gusts hanging out with Mike, you know, that sort of thing. So how do you think about approaching? We got this character. There's a lot of mystery. Around him. We want to preserve some of it, but we want also use him. You know, I couldn't agree. I love Giancarlo Esposito you know, you just watch this guy who couldn't be more different from his character. It's it's kinda miraculously to see how lively and funny in human insensitive Giancarlo is he is a real artist and then to see him become Gus fring in the blink of an eye is it's sort of a magic trick. He is. He is a remarkable actor. It's a great character. We you, you put your finger on. One thing that we always think about is how much do you wanna know about gusts background in his inner life, and we've had we've a lot of ideas about that and there have been hints throughout the show. But the question is to you, you know is exciting. Is that the right thing to do to fill in all those hints in I, I don't know the answer. It's one of those things that we play by ear. We learn more about him. This season. We learned more about how important actress. To him in the things he's willing to do to keep Hector under his thumb. And we learned, you know, tell us that that great story in an episode, six Jenny Hodgson road about, you know about his childhood, which sounds pretty bleak. He is a fascinating actor. I wanna see more of him. You know, it's an embarrassment of riches on this show. It's an embarrassment of riches of characters a performers he is. But I, I will say, John Carlos one of my favorites, and I just love working with the frankly when I'm directing, he's I just love directing him so much fun to work with on the set. So I, I'm all I can say is I think I'm going to direct this coming season. I'm sure hoping it works out. I get a bunch of Gus fring scenes. Maybe he drives across town. There's like a house. He goes in the house. We never seen the house before. There's a live studio audience in there and like six precocious orphans, and it turns out he's also like the dad and a multi. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. We writing. This. I, I do want to ask where it we're coming into the end here, but I do want to ask breaking bad, ran five seasons. You're coming up on season five. Do you have a sense of, obviously you could just run the show forever as as you know, salt takes case of the week, be I, I would watch it. I would watch it, but do you have a sense of like we're bless you? We are approaching some sort of end game. I, yeah, I think it's the similarity with breaking bad, I think is that this is a story with a beginning, middle and an end. And I think we're probably closer to the end into the beginning. It's a different kind of story because I always go back to that saying, I heard when I was a kid which where there's life, there's hope, and we know that Jimmy Saul gene lives. And so I, I wanna know you know, what is the end of this man story? And I don't know. I don't think the end of the story is Walter white walking in and his whole world falling apart. There seems to be more. To it than that. So I, I think we'll we'll have to see. I'd like to see more gene tack. Also, I'll tell you that and you know, of course, breaking bad ran, what sixty? Two episodes. We just we just premiered our fortieth. It would be great. I mean, boy, it would be wonderful to have this box set in, you know, you turn it one way and I'm just talking about like a Blu Ray. You turn it one way and it's the RV from breaking bad, and then you flip it around and it's the esteem, it's Jimmy's esteem from better call Saul. And you know, we have, we have this row. This is actually an image play. I, you know, I just realized where I more I had this image before I had this image. Brian. I Bryan Cranston I were in in his trailer wants, and I said, wouldn't it be great if we can finish this story and you can have a row of DVD's and you know the first one was the the, the pilot of breaking bad. In the end. We did it and Vincent Brian. All of us did it together, but led by. Vince course it would be wonderful if this show too had a beginning, a middle and God willing satisfying ending, and that it has a relationship to this other show. It seems very unusual to me is the, I guess, maybe it's not as unusual as I think because people talk about extended universes, but I don't really think of this as an extended universe. I think of this these stories about very specific characters. I don't really think of it as a universe. Maybe it is. I think it'd be fun. I think that'd be great. So I mean, my hope would be that we run roughly the same length is breaking bad. I wouldn't want the one thing I don't wouldn't want to do is to tread water or to to feel that we've overstayed our welcome churn. And finally a interview invents before season one, I went back and reread it and I asked you. So I sort of had thought of breaking bad as show about a man. Everybody assumed was good, who deep down was not that good. And I sort of thought about this. Show for a long time as a man. Everybody assumed was bad, who deep down was not that bad. You know, he had a really good side to him now that we're at the end of season for now that we've seen all this water under the bridge. Would you say that because at the time you thought my assessment was was pretty accurate, but would you say that's still accurate? IRS has says, all of is Jimmy sort of selling himself out in some ways. You know, I think any everybody has potential to go any which way I think it may be. It's mechanistic way of looking at things, but I think of decisions, the choices people make. It's the the difference you make in the world that says, whether you're good or bad. I mean, I know there are other ways to look at it. There are other ways their religious ways say that you know what's good or bad is how you feel inside or relationship to to the terminal, and those are obviously legitimate ways. But as a dramatist it's that's too pretending and as as a television writer, I liked. Think of it as the decisions that people make and you add up the decisions and that's who you are. And that's a very uncomfortable way to look at it sometimes because it means that we have to stand behind the things that we've done in life or the things that we haven't done. But I, I have to say, I think it's a, I think it's a productive way to think about it. And it's also part of the fun of part of the fun of fiction and of narrative fiction is you get experienced different kinds of lives and you kind of imagine what would my life be like if I had made these decisions or if I was in this person's shoes and it's, I think that's the, you know, it's the glory of being human as you can. You can project yourself into someone else, and so that's that's those are the things that I think about more than is the essence of the person good or bad. If Walter white had made the decision to stop cooking meth. After that, I adventure when he made all that money, maybe you'd say, well, was he a good? You know, he might have been a much better person. He had a lot of opportunities to change his ways. So I, you know, I think a lot in terms of, I think we all do in the riders from thinking a lot in terms of character tests, which is, you know, you always hope that you don't have too many of those in your life because you you don't wanna flunk them. Well, the show is better call Saul. It's on AMC. Older seasons are on Netflix, if you're not watching it and you should be Peter cold. Thank you for trying all thank you. Talk. If you've been following this podcast episode one, you'll notice that I've been slowly descending into depraved immorality, and that's because I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Todd Vander producer of this shows bridgette Armstrong. Our editor is Griffin Tanner. The executive producer of audio at vox media has Nishad. Kirwa are sound designer as miles our logo design. It's thanks to Victor wear crystal Stevens and Georgia Kelly, our production managers, Alex. Alright. Our production coordinator is Carrie Clements our audio engineering and our studio this week. Thanks to the rebel. Talk network, and our recording engineer was William broken. Please remember to rate review and subscribe to this show on apple podcasts or Spotify Stitcher, or wherever you take a look at fine podcasts helps us get the message out about the show, helps the skit great guests. You can Email me Todd at vox dot com. You can Email the show. I t y podcast at FOX dot com and tweet at me at TV OT to voting. We're going to be. Back next week with another guest from the world of arts and entertainment, media and culture, I'll spoil you. It's hardly Smith. She's the voice of Simpson. It's a lot of fun. I think you're gonna like it, but until then remember for all your podcasting, Meads better call, Todd doesn't work. It doesn't work at all really. Support for this podcast and the following message comes from smart water, not satisfied being like other brands. Smart water looked up at the clouds and said, I wonder if we can one up mother nature for a pure crisper water and guess what they did. This is the kind of water that regular water gets jealous of. 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Jim Jimmy Saul writer Kim Wexler Jimmy McGill Mr. Gilgen Vince Gilligan Seoul Goodman Mike Bob Jimmy Gill Bob Bob Odenkirk Chuck us Omaha director Albuquerque Bryan Cranston Peter Gould Jimmy corner Saul Goodman
Better Call Saul | Season 5, Episode 4 Recap: Namaste

Post Show Recaps

1:20:56 hr | 11 months ago

Better Call Saul | Season 5, Episode 4 Recap: Namaste

"The check this out. I got word that. Who through this crazy party in Beverly Hills with literally all of the biggest reality TV stars? I'm talking about all the Bravo. Lips Candy Barris Barsha Williams. James Kennedy. Jack's Taylor even capped in the League and Kate chastain. Here's the genius part. If you WANNA find out what happened at the party you have to watch the commercials. Yes I know I'll be tuning in and then signing up for a free trial to get my favorite reality. Tv SHOWS AT HULU DOT COM off. Better Call Saul season five episode for now. Stay is over. But we're just getting started here at post show recaps. Hello everyone I am Antonio Massaro and I am so thrilled to be talking. I haven't inner peace about this episode. I'm here to be talking about better. Call Saul with Josh Twitter. Josh how are you? Oh my God what an incredibly weird episode of better call Song Nama Stay Jimmy and Mike and Hank and Gomez and Gust traveled back to the Nineteen Seventies. And here they are in Dharma. Ville JOSH RYAN TO FIT IN SHIMMIED. GonNa just like how Jimmy's going by. Leflore OUT. Down the hatch podcast. I think you're I think you're lost got. Can you think your loss so sorry so sorry? So sorry. You're right. You're making reference to the fact that there is a there's a lost episode called Nostalgia. We have a better call Saul episode now called animosity. What is it about the concept of this word what it entails? Josh that you think is gold to TV writers. I think I think zen state is always fascinating to explore creatively. Because it's bullshit to some degree right now I it is. This is zen state real in the same way as altruism real kids these are these things that are like real like that you can get close to the Zen state I think he can get close to altruism but there's always going to be at least some underlying motive whether or not it's you know it doesn't have to be various underlying motive. It could be wake doing good. Feels good to me. But that's not going to be something that you shake You know I think that you can reach Zen state to the point that you're mostly You know calm and fearless as you're moving through the world. But you're always gonNA have like my stomach's grumbling. I'm ready for Milan. Ch like something's going to sneak in at least that's my experience. I guess I have dot achieve true Zen but I think that it's fascinating to explore from a creative standpoint and from a television standpoint because like you have somebody like Jimmy Right now who has achieved a certain level of Zen in his mind. He has now activated as Saul Goodman. He's he's really fully in on that right now and he's unshakeable in that attempt until he has lunch with Howard Hamlin and until like the ghost of his brother is brought back into the universe and the irritation from the past is brought back into his world and he has to act on it so. I think that there's a piece of that. That's at play and I. It's just an alluring idea of is is some level of like full peace and satisfaction. Actually possible. Do you need to get to that place or is it an illusion? That is a trap. So I think that that's something that Tv writers have have clearly been keen on exploring well and it certainly fits in works with a show like this right which is definitely about the soul in about these moments of the characters experience where they're reaching into the depths of their of their psyche or of their being they're very being and looking for the divine. Which of course is what a lot of that spiritual practice where you might encounter the word. No Ma stay in that in that realm is all about and certainly the soul-searching that's going on throughout the course of this season call. Saul is front and center especially with Kim and Jimmy because of everything that Kim is experiencing with Mesa Verde and figuring out role in the universe and trying to find the divine or trying to find the spark in inside herself that is leading her down a certain path. And we'll certainly talk about where that path leads in this episode Jimmy's character. That's been history throughout the context of this whole series. That is I think maybe one of the mission statements of making better call Saul. Is this guy. Finding the opposite of that within himself. Finding what is truly down there is not good or that being in conflict with itself is certainly the Jimmy McGill story and we find Howard hamlet at a different part of his spiritual journey. I having passed some time in him. Having clearly confronted a lot of the issues. That Jimmy has not Or at least respond to them in a different way. And so then the NAMA. Stay or the greeting. If you will the context that you'll sometimes encounter in the soul to soul this evening. They're seeing the divine in someone else. It is interesting what these characters are seeing in each other and I think coming to grips with. That is certainly a key part of this episode. And they're you know maybe there's a lot of stuff that that we could talk about. That seems like filler. On I would certainly not defend a lot of that in this episode. It doesn't mean it is not enjoyable to watch especially the first time through for the craft of it all but for me the episode really centers around the relationship between Kim and Jimmy. And what she's accepting of now because of where she's at and certainly the relationship between Howard Jimmy or Howard and Saul unfortunately Howard has really started to meet Saul Goodman and what that means for those two characters that to me. Is The crux of the episode. Along with maybe the scene with Saul Goodman with the fifty percent off guys in jail really says the most about where our characters are at right now and I think that's what this episode was mainly about but Josh we also got more Hank and Gumy We got the cleaning of a FRYER. We cut some very unfortunate stuff with Mike. So even though it doesn't seem like a lot happened we certainly have a lot to break down in this episode? Where would you like to start so obviously we need to do a like a forty minute? Deep dive into Jimmy as a bull in the China shop at the start. So that's that's one of the filler moments for me. I think we need to talk about. I mean other than there's just another example of better call small small better for the reason I said that Dr Freud well I was going to get a hold this back but I guess now I just have done bail it I was going to say better call Saul likes to smell its own. Sometimes it's got this thing where it's very craft oriented and very procedural and sometimes it's like really mesmerizing like the melting ice cream and the ants attacking last week. Which I thought was a really such a key piece of filmmaking that I really enjoyed watching but then you get a cold open like this when and where we what we're seeing here. Is this Jimmy. Like finding the best object to trash our Hamlin's car with did we need this. Did we actually need this? I think this is the reason why we're we're in season. Five of better call Saul in. Jimmy is just now becoming Saul Goodman and I know for some people this stuff. That's the bread and butter of the show. And I think on the filmmaking side some filmmakers really really enjoy exploring. It's just like what they can do it in the craft of making the show but sometimes for me this is like okay so. I probably can just like iphone my way through the through the through the montage it about this one if it wasn't abundantly clear if you only watch the episode the One time and you're listening to podcasts are reading recaps to try to get some clarity on things that happened welcome. That's certainly something I do this. This episode is not in continuity. It does not begin the episode. It would have taken place somewhere near the end of the episode after Jimmy Meets with Mr Acker. Who for me was the MVP of the episode? We'll talk about that later as well. But Jimmy meets with Mr Actor Accoring Carey. He makes the proposal that he represent him against thing by the way. I'm so sorry to interrupt like the way that he who is Mr Accurate. Jimmy has done across the way like. He's just so fowl. It's incredibly effective. Mind you and Mr Aker describing. What's in that picture? Just my favorite moment of the season on rotten dot com in the two thousand. That's true steak and cheese. Don't those sites do not outlets ladder one and I'm done it still operating it'll be real check it out. It's a food that I enjoy so I don't want to say I do not per would've occurred after Jimmy meets with Mr After. Jimmy goes on steak and cheese And then gets a picture. And then with Mr Aker. Aker hilariously describes it and then Jimmy's feeling himself and he talks to Kim. Then he takes a little breath outside his car. Right there outside Mr Akers House. And he looks at his watch and then he goes to the cold open scene and he picks a bowling ball because it is that moment where he is decided that he is going to Vandalize something that is near and dear to Howard him when Jaguar with anonymous stay license plate. So that's where this cold open. Scene would've occurred just after that and before the moments of the bowling ball really nothing to cover in the cold. Open other than yeah. It's it's all process. It's fun it is. It is what it is. It's funny because there's another scene in this episode that That I'm that I'm reminded of what the original idea for better call. Saul was when they first conceived of a spin off of breaking bad featuring sell goodman. They weren't sure if it was going to be a half hour sitcom if it was going to be an hour show. They did not have a full grasp on this idea. And of course one of the things people thought was going to be a lot of hijinks with with sulk minutes going to be like a half hour sitcom featuring him and his goofy clients. Bob Odenkirk a comedian. Like this is what we're going to do. And so I think that stuff like this just hijinks with Saul Goodman. It definitely feels like it's part of that. The later seen in the courtroom where Jimmy pulls the old switcheroo with the client net to borrow a phrase from Star Wars. The Phantom menace character. Is that legal? Crecy who is was that was that like these hijinks the shenanigans that he pause where he has somebody. Defendant is not his defendant and his defendant is deeper into the back of the room. That's the thing you can do. Well look Jimmy if your shit head maybe right to kill has is one of the ones who will take every single rule that's in criminal procedure and I don't know what their local rules in New Mexico and honestly the way that a lot of court rules work you have your federal rules. And of course they may or may not apply there most likely just a guideline for the state to create their own rules and then the state has their rules but even local judges will have their local rules about things like this and so it probably was bending the rules if not breaking them. I don't think every jurisdiction has a requirement that the accused sit at the table with the lawyer. It just depends on the nature of the case and certainly where the case is I'm not sure what the local there wasn't New Mexico. Jimmy was certainly bending if not breaking in a but he got the outcome that he wanted and so mission accomplished for that and he wasn't sanctioned that's the other thing is the judge didn't seem to punish him for it so it doesn't seem like what he did was technically illegal but it was certainly highly outside the bounds of what was appropriate. And we saw what happened as a result So yeah he's definitely bending rules if not breaking them and I think that's what you'll see throughout with Saul Goodman is. He is cognizant of what the rules are. He's not really super concerned with ethics. He was that way before he was solve. In as you remember he would go. Mississippi Jimmy right like he would go and he would solicit clients directly in person by paying a bus driver off to break their bus down outside of in Texas. You know just so that he could go and solicit these clients person to person and he would find a way to say. Oh I had reason to be there in person. I was meeting with the client who had already filled out the card but of course everything. He did surrounding. That was highly irregular. If not unethical but this is not who. Jimmy McGill is so yeah he. He's bending rules to the point. Most lawyers would never and certainly it's causing problems. Such as the trial has to be called off. But is he breaking them now he's not seemingly running afoul of enough to be sanctioned again so? I think that's the dance. We're going to see what? Jimmy McGill throughout this. I'm going to talk about I. I I really WanNa talk about how he's reconciling. Being Jimmy McGill still and becoming Saul Goodman. And how that spinally challenged by the arrival of round Howard Hamlin. Because I think that the I think that this is really. This is really key to the entire episode. Like I think that this is the beating heart of the episode. This is our first real chance to talk about Howard handling in any kind of detailed this season. We are almost halfway through the season and once again we're finally getting Howard Hamlin in in the in the in the picture. Really the series regulars on this show often. I feel like it's not always the greatest deal for them well financially at work. It's working but yeah in terms of getting their screen time. That's for sure. So it's it's curious to me why Howard comes to Jimmy. He has this. He has this pitch to him of. I've been thinking about this for awhile. I always loved you Charlie Hustle. I WanNa put you back. We need a McGill back. We want it to be you charlie. Charlie Hustle like. This was the thing that he always wanted to do. He should have stood his ground earlier. How much did you read this as like him? Just kind of feeding Jimmy. A line versus this is his authentic truth. Because I think that I'm inclined to maybe give Howard a little bit more of a pass than the average bear. I think that Howard has proven time and time again like yeah he could be an a hole and he could be a shark in a suit but I think one of the great complexities about Howard. Hamlin is I think like he is somebody who was wracked with guilt over the death of Charles McGill. He's more of a tank in bear. Just I think he is. He is somebody who is like. He was wracked with guilt over chuck. He was wracked with guilt over. How chuck treated Jimmy Never liked. That he really did always authentically like Jimmy. I Howard Hamlin is maybe a pretty good guy. Is that a crazy take no? I don't think so and honestly I think he is he out of touch guy like he's superwealthy like he's born into a he kind of got like a force onto like the company path his father was here. There's an element of nepotism there. What is Jimmy? Say about him like he's a lawyer but he's a Schmoozer or something salesman. Yeah great salesman so like maybe he would have done better in a totally different enterprise and I think that those are all things that actually to me like. Make him a sympathetic rich character. That a lot of this is circumstance that brought him here and the same way that I think that Jimmy can be a sympathetic enrich character on the other side of that spectrum. These people who are kind of like in these positions that they probably wouldn't have necessarily pick for themselves if not for who they are and who they were born into what they were born into. I think that Howard is somebody because like he has this weird veneer about him there is like sort of this gloss to Howard that I think like he can he can read. Just like a full-on douchebag. But I think what he's coming to Jimmy to me it read as authentic and he was actually he's actually representative of the flip side of what I was saying earlier about the idea of Nama. Stay and then all of that where like he has not achieved that full thing but I think like you said like he's somebody who's maybe like grown a bit in the past year that we haven't really gotten to see him too much and he is somebody who in the past year has probably actually looked inward on some of that anxiety that he'd been feeling some of the insomnia that he'd been suffering and I think like Jimmy looks at that in this episode and it's like screw that he's weak. He's he's he's you know he's two d. like he's not living his life and he's not somebody that he's he's the enemy like gyms reaction of that is because like Howard's actually moving forward to some degree but is he moving forward insofar as he still keeping one eye on. Jimmy is this something that he's just trying to do at a charity or is this because he thinks it's authentically in the best interest of everybody involved. I think those are questions. That people from the writer to the actor to everyone involved with the show is probably saying are all on the table. And I know Patrick Fabian. The actor who wonderfully plays Howard. Hamlin has his own take on things He was on the better call. Saul insider podcast this week so If you WANNA double dose of very inside baseball conversations about The specific aspects of how the bowling ball scenes were crafted. They used by the way Josh Air Cannon and if you WanNa talk listen to Patrick Fabian. Talk about his thoughts on Howard Hamlin. That is certainly on that. Podcast It is. I think open Howard. Hamlin is a person who in my mind is haunted by. The Dole goes of chuck and his own father. I'm recalling the scenes that you are loosely. Referencing In what you're discussing in the past where Howard for example says to Kim I envy you. I wish I could be you like he's talking about leaving. Howard is very jealous. He eats feels like atwoods told you. That's the guy was talking about. He was like backed into this and he had no choice. But to become part of Hamlin Hammond Miguel because while he is the second Hamlin the first Hamlin was the began when he was the king and Howard was the prince. So Howard never felt like you had another choice and there are times when you you have seen I think the slightly behind the veneer of the veneers of Howard Hamlin. You have seen that. He has tried to make his peace with this gradually throughout. And it's something where he's as. Well we all have our old play like he just is is is accepting of what he's doing now. We have seen him at his lowest ebb throughout season. Four better call Saul in the aftermath of what happens with Chuck Howard blames himself. Jimmy is more than happy to let. Howard blame himself he says Howard. That's your cross to bear and he does not provide him any recompense or any knowledge that no Howard. It wasn't you who pushed chuck into this. It was more likely me who did so I mean he lets Howard take all that on he encounters Howard in the courthouse bathroom. Howard hasn't slept in days. It makes Jimmy think. Therapy is not a good option. But here we have as. You're observing the beginning of this podcast. A more zen version of Howard Hamlin of the day license plate. Howard Hamlin and the question I guess is is is twofold one. Is this true for Howard. That's what you're saying. He seems so desperate. The first time I watched this episode. I thought I don't know that. Howard this guy who's so calculating and so smart and so business oriented and so like actually in terms of wanting to be above board buying chuck out of the firm like trying to do the right thing by Kim. He seems like he's just all focused on business. I don't know that he would be going for Jimmy McGill. He has to know how bad of an idea that would be. He seemed this guy. It didn't necessarily ring true to me. The first time I watched the episode of the disc would be an offer that Howard would make but as I sat and thought about the Howard him when character and the Ark of him and where he has come from and what he has been through. I think you're right. I think there is a little bit of guilt there. I think there is a little bit of admiration for Jimmy there. I think he is carrying around a lot. That maybe these. This offer isn't coming from the healthiest place. Maybe it's coming from a place where he's trying to right wrongs where he's trying to do right by Jimmy but maybe also do right by chuck or do right by himself and considering the situations he was placed in so it is a fascinating conversation for sure and it is capped by the vulnerability where he just can't not say Charlie Hustle. He just can't not Jewish that's his. That's his voice catches like that's when he really is emoting in terms of like he really mired this about Jimmy and he really felt that way and he really does feel guilty about putting his foot on Jimmy's throat in service of chuck the way he did for all those years he has no way of knowing of course how late. This ship is sailing right. Like how far out past the Docs Jimmy McGill is? He doesn't know that Jimmy has just done business with Lalo the DA and felt so alive that in this episode with the fifty percent off guys. He's I'm Saul Goodman like he is all in his four pop in this episode. Howard doesn't know that that's who is dealing with anymore. Jimmy McGill as we know it is basically gone. You can even watch the scene between Jimmy and Howard and see the physical moves between Jimmy and saw and watch that in Bob. Odin kirks performance. This is not. Jimmy McGill anymore in all intensive purposes. Yeah there's some Jimmy McGill left. Put the Charlie Hustle that Howard. So admired yet. That characteristic is there but not in a good way anymore now writing used for bad and Howard just does not realize where he's gone now he probably will realize it by the episode. Do you think he will associate the bowling ball activity with Jimmy and I wonder I wonder but I think I think it's very likely and I think that like Howard will might guess would be that like Howard will move on with his life fairly quickly but I think that Howard won't like sue Jimmy to the nines. That's a bitter chuck move and I don't think that that's going to be like a Howard move. I think what Howard will do is I think he'll he'll probably like I expect what will get from. Howard is like we'll get some kind of commentary from him. That is very incisive against Jimmy. That is like a real. Take down if Jimmy. I think I think we are owed that. I think that Jimmy really like took a grapefruit spoon to Howard soul back in season. Four and I think that the favor needs to be returned so expand on that if you can let let's talk about why you think it was. The Jimmy decided that the proper response to this ernest job offer was to throw the bowling ball's through the car. Because I think he thinks Howard he the feelings that he has towards H. Hmo are the feelings towards chuck in the way that he feels about his old life and now he's doing something new and he's going to be successful his own. Right Howard just gets lumped in that Howard. Just part of the enemy. As far as that goes Jimmy has already laid bare his true feelings about Howard even though Howard had always been in Jimmy's Corner Howard was the original scapegoat and Jimmy's never really allowed. The new wants to see that maybe Howard wasn't wasn't the enemy here. Why why I think the favorite needs to be returned in kind of Jimmy needs to get to a place to see Howard in a new light to even. It's not something he's GonNa recognize immediately because I think thinking back to. Is it in season. Four where we have the breaking bad flash forward as a cold open where Jimmy as saw and Francesca shredding all the documents and he tells he tells Francesca to call. This person called this lawyer. There's a lot of speculation about who that lawyer is. Francesca is being instructed to call. And if you and I are thinking that that Kim Wexler is going to be in small town wherever and is going to be available to gene in the future then she's likely not available in this moment in the in the breaking bad time line so I would expect it. That's probably Howard. I expect that Howard is the person that Jimmy is telling. Francesca to call. So I think like even if there isn't like a real reconciliation between Jimmy and Howard. I think that there has come an acknowledgement on Jimmy's part. That's probably too little too late. That Howard's a good dude or at least a decent dude somebody who can protect you in this moment and especially somebody who has some level of the stodgy fondness if not find us at least some level of the stall gic obligation to the McGill clan. That he would take. Francesca in under her wing. Yeah that's a really good call because in in that in that same scene that you're referencing. There's this mysterious date where Jimmy and Francesca are to be at an appointed place in time. And Jimmy's not there. You know what to do like you're talking about who to call and those sorts of things it is interesting. That is reminding me you referencing. That is reminding me and again plays into this whole like where are these characters on a spectrum that they're moving all over on the spectrum on the is not clean Ark for any of them last season What before the scene. You're talking about where he said you're a great year shit lawyer but you're a great salesman Jimmy sent the client. He sent The the Alpine shepherd boy When she passed away that lady he sent her Relative who was needing some kind of will and estate Executory privileges or their situation with that. He sent them to him on him. On a McGill. He referred the client over. There said they have a great estate department and it was. I think coming from that place that you're talking about the fondness the realization that okay. Maybe I do owe these people something or especially this guy who really did care for me. And maybe he shouldn't bear the brunt of this and I think that if I have to refer a client anywhere that's where I'm them. That is what we saw them. But when Jimmy is in the office to deal with that Jimmy is is very upset at Howard because the firm is having a problem. They've brought in consultants. They've downsized they've had a bad go of it and Jimmy. That's when Jimmy gives Howard to pep up speech that ends with him really kind of eviscerating soul with a grapefruit spoon like you said the question. I have then is what we have after. That is referenced in this episode. We have the scene with the scholarship committee where Jimmy is at. Hhs with Howard going over. All the scholarship recipients and Jimmy of course is upset because a lot of people in the room although not we don't see Howard doing it. We see a lot of people in the room Judging the one of the applicants because she had a shoplifted Jimmy feels like that's a judgment on his character. I'm not sure why he takes it out on Howard and why we're at this point with Howard. I think a lot of what's happening is true. Self loathing like Jimmy Howard seeing something good and Jimmy would end that. Jimmy has to acknowledge something good at Jimmy. Yeah and those past that. At this right yeah. He's wealth well being even. I'm not sure if he's passed it or if it's just that like he acknowledges or knows that leading that in that letting that in at all we'll make the house of cards crumble. That he's doing right now. He's building up this house of cards. It makes him feel good. And letting any kind of option in there that will actually make him confront what. He's papering over with all of his behavior. Assault Goodman. He's putting the Rita Hayworth poster on the wall in a reality. There's a big hole behind it. That big hole is everything. He hasn't dealt with via chuck everything he hasn't dealt with via his own feelings in terms of Just squaring away like his own feelings of responsibility or lack thereof or just in the way that Howard has clearly done. So I think Jimmy has not in his paper over that Salk Goodman in these loud suits and the behavior that he's that he's in engaging in and it's making him feel good it's the classic self medicating that's making him feel good. But it is not addressing the underlying problem on some level. I think he's cognizant of the fact that acknowledging that I have worked outside of this means acknowledging this huge elephant in the room that I haven't dealt with with everything with my brother so the fact that this guy it's the same thing that he added. Davison main right but it's at a different time in his life at Davidson main. He says in in references in this dinner like ask Clifford main. What kind of person I am to work for to work with and I think at that time no I cannot be in a place where they see value in me because I don't see value in myself and I only exist best when I'm fighting against that when I have a chip on my shoulder and I'm saying how dare you undervalue me. That's when I do my best work. And we see what he does with the fifty percent off guys in that way in this episode. Where he's saying. How dare you undervalue me? Compare me to. He says a public pretender which is the same exact work that he used to do. Throughout the course of these first several seasons he is openly and horribly. So by the way there's a very good people that work in that system throughout the country. He is openly being hostile to the to the very thing that he used to be with these guys turning his nose up them and saying I am Saul Goodman and I think that's by means of not having to address all of his under addressed issues so that comes out in the form of a bowling ball directly attacking the car with the license plate that triggers him and certainly the person who owns it that triggers him as well And like I said that I think is the central part. You said the beating heart of this episode. I agree but I think the same things or the same. Let's what what's in. The soul of Jimmy. Mcgill is going on between Kim and Jimmy. But I think what's happening there and I think I'm sure you'll agree with me. Is that Kim is sort of embracing the darkness in A. That is probably not good for her. She's heading down Saul Goodman path and that can't be good for her well. So here's here's where I where I'm forecasting this so so obviously Kim goes to cabinet page and is trying to get Mesa Verde to build on a different lot so that they can turn to come Terry into like a full Mesa Verde town right and like give rocker. Maybe some time to to actually be convinced to leave like. She thinks that maybe she could still do some social engineering on that front and Kevin is not having you know this is. Our land is legally our land if he wants to fight. It's a fight hill. Have we'll take the sheriff to him on Friday? All of that stuff and she she tried you know tried to convince them and because it didn't work she can't let go of the fact that like what she she she's letting the little guy go and she can't do it she just she can't. She can't have herself so in her mind. Leaning on Jimmy come in and represent Mr Acker and cause a fight that way is going to be worth. Maybe saving this guy but what's going to happen as a result of that is it's almost a little bit of a miracle that Kim hasn't been dumped by Mesa Verde yet becoming right. I think it's coming. I think it's coming. I think it's through this. I think it's because she's enlisting Jimmy to do it. And then Jimmy will probably take the fact that like Kim leaned on him to help her out with this as like a free rein carte blanche to do it his way to do it. The Saul Goodman Way and he may do it in a way. That is really dastardly. That Kim can't abide. That really reminds her of all the ways that she has compromised herself in leaning into the Saul Goodman tactics. And I think we'll finally be thing that pushes her and Jimmy away and Jimmy will be bitter about it because like I was just helping you and Kim will be. It's not that that's to me like that. Is the queer source of the break-up I think could be a season long arc again worth reminding that like we're almost halfway through the season already. Yeah show show moves slow fast that I think. By the end of the season this blows up Mesa Verdes no longer in Kim's possession because Jimi showed Mr Aker something happening between a man and a horse that I shall not repeat a man and it's going to take a horse and is gonNA is GonNa take those tactics to Mesa Verde and Mesa Verde will pull out and then it's not gonNa work well at Schweiker and Coakley for Tim. Moving forward from there so yeah. I think that her days here are really rightfully numbered. I think you can see the bullet points on that path Freddie plainly and I think it'll be the thing that Kim needs to sober up right. I think that that's the thing is like I think we're seeing with Howard. Howard is a guy who if he's not like you know sobriety is a path. It's always a fragile thing. But like he's he's sobered up you know like in. His soul has sobered up to a certain degree. Kim is not there there are moments where she is is doing things for all the right reasons but then she goes back to the Jimmy stuff and I am careful not to cast aspersions on her. Because I think that she's like she's got like a little bit of a problem. But I think that one of the things I feel like the show is going to make clear one of my feelings about the the Maddox of the show. Anyway is you gotTA sober up. You gotTA sober up on this stuff like you can't just let yourself like be deepened. The Vortex of all this bad effing. Shit like you can't. You can't just take the easy way to grow up. Do you have to be an adult? You have to do things a more right way. Wait there is no one hundred percent right way. But you can't spill baby milk on a blueprint as part of a con to gladys you know. You can't do that stuff and I think that a lot of people were very concerned about Kim Wexler State. Because she's not in breaking bad and I am maybe setting myself up for extraordinary failure and but I am. I am really concerned about Kim from the perspective of like she. Jimmy aren't going to last like she and Jim. You're definitely going to break up a show that kills Kim Wexler. I don't think I think that this is a show that allows Kim. Wexler to know that. Like she's crossed a line. She's GONNA suffer consequences for it but will be able to rebuild her house of cards in a right way and I think for her. That will mean going back to a small town and doing good locally there and I think that the stage is really set for all of that based on coming back Perhaps gene saying look. I know we didn't work out. Or maybe they will. But I need your help. Like here's where I'm at with this and helps him or she turns him in right. You know both of those could potentially be satisfying. Actually like they're like. Oh God like the Schuyler white mob will come out in full force. Talk about that mob. I know they'll come out against Kim Wexler and when that happens I'm going to war. That is not something that I will stand for. You do not Besmirch Kim. Wexler can would be well within her rights to be like I believe in justice. Injustices you Gago Jail Buddy. Or there's enough history that she helps them out. I think like both of those are earned ending. I for me. We are in a situation where we are right to analyze. Kim. Her on the story of these Avi Jimmy. I certainly liked to think of hers and individual. Absent Jimmy McGill influence. But there's such intertwined people at this point that it is difficult to separate one from the other to give her agency certainly does a great job of that and I would like to see that one way or the other what I will say is. It's not I know that the we're talking about like how and I agree with you that we're probably in the midst of a season long arc that ends with the two of them breaking apart as a result of what happens with him and Mesa Verde and pushing them away and maybe losing them at Schweiker Coakley pushing her way. The thing is I don't think the show should and I don't feel that it is presented. Ara- should be presented as a bad outcome for Kim that she loses a bank client. I think what we're seeing out of Kim Wexler and what we have seen from her talk of Atticus finch and to kill a mockingbird on up is she has the soul of a compassionate lawyer and that her working with a bank is something that maybe she thought she wanted but when it came down to it is not why she is meant to practice law. And you're right and observing that. That's why a good outcome for her as maybe ending up back in a small town and really helping everyone in that small town right That's why it is not a bad outcome for that. But that is not a fall from grace. That is an ascent into the position that she is meant to occupy. And so I don't I I understand where that would cause a break up between the two of them but in the end I think it's a good thing for her not to be working with Mesa Verde. I think she thinks it's a good thing. I think this is a from a legal standpoint. This is the thing a lot of lawyers struggle with obviously Is this idea of what is my role in the the call out that Mr Aker read her to filth for was ultimately like really accurate right. It's like you're one of those people who you work really hard for a corporation like this and then throw some money charity every month on you feel better about yourself and I think that is not why she helps her public defense clients but I think that she can understand why that might be an appropriate read and why that is. Maybe why she's still not a good fit for Mesa Verde. We have seen that sold her throughout. She feels bad about what happened with Chuck. She doesn't like making regional or local bank into a regional bank. She doesn't feel good about these accomplishments. Yeah she's a person who we've seen stacking trophies in her office of all the bank. She's opened but at her core. That's not who she is in to the extent that Jimmy is helping her Reach that point. I don't know that that has to end their relationship because it is ultimately I think a good thing for her that she not be trapped in this Mesa Verde Position It couldn't worse for her. She could end up in trouble with the bar. That's the thing that I'm worried about you. I think are really right to pull out the gladys in the milk situation because I still think that. That's an unresolved thing. I think that that's one of those things. Where if you're let's say you're a page from Mesa Verde you're certainly capable of putting all these pieces together. Wait Goodman isn't that McGill and wasn't McGill. The guy that you were helping to do the thing against the other McGill in. Isn't there a connection between the two of you? Oh and by the way I've never really. I've never really figured out. How were you able to get that branch in Lubbock change there are there? Are All these eleventh hour things like? I'm starting to wonder what matches comes from. There's there's a moment that you can imagine coming up. That will be like I mean like page is going to have her moment where she's sitting on the porcelain throats dedicated to W W S G look at that. I know a guy but like you could imagine a less dramatic Hank coming to Jesus moment realizing that. Walt is Heisenberg of realizing that Kim to some degree assault goodman right way to realizing to some degree. What Kim has been able to do in order to to move the needle on on certain things not just for Mesa Verde but also for Jimmy the fact that Jimmy is being brought in to the accuracy of the fact that Kim has if Kim had had I mean even if she had a Kim having that that meeting with them in this episode about like what's billed elsewhere into Terry clearly because it is just like another thing. That's going to pay on their radar so I don't think there's any way that this ends well in terms of the continued relationship between Kim and Mesa Verde. I don't think that she's run out of chances. Where pages like you have. It's Jimmy or it's us. I don't think that like that option realistically. I don't think that option should exist at this point. I think pages given a lot of rope and Kim is great what she does and everything like that but she has shown from from pages perspective on multiple occasions that she prioritizes other things above Mesa Verde. And that's not what they're looking for in their in their representatives So I think especially if she loops. Someone like Jimmy into this situation. It's not going to be good that it is but the thing is like I said I still am left with feeling like it is ultimately a good thing for Kim to have this situation separated to not end up being the Mesa Verde attorney to not be on that side. I don't know that were. I think she realizes this. I think she knows this. I think when rich wichert gave her her little come to Jesus talk about who's paying the bills and keeping lights on a couple of episodes ago. she's not stupid. She understands that this is where the bread is being buttered. Just don't think she likes the arrangement anymore And she is taking affirmative action clearly in this episode. If it wasn't clear enough. She's the reason Jimmy goes to to carry. She's the reason Jimmy New to solicit Mr Aker directly And it is a plan that she's going to make to work against Mesa Verde. She's probably going to be representing. Mesa Verde against Jimmy Which is going to be interesting. I just don't see how page ultimately doesn't blow all this up or rich wichert. Who clearly knows who. Jimmy McGill is as well. I just don't know we've seen that throughout rich white card saying. Hey how's Jimmy? I wanted to see Jimmy like we. We've seen him talking about Jimmy mcgeough. He had interactions with the man he has had. Some bad interactions demand. He'd knows who he is This is if we to actually a a a situation where Kim is oppositional as Mesa verdes council with Jimmy as Saul Goodman There's no way that that doesn't ultimately pull the plug for Kim via the back channels of rich Schweickart and page I just don't know that Kim will be upset about that. I think the more likely scenario is she may be gets in trouble with the Bar Herself. And that pushes. The Jimmy McGill away. She seems to be embracing the salt of it. All she knows how to use Saul Goodman. She knows he's the man for the job. She knows he's the guy for this and that's the difficult thing is maybe if she just only sees that in him anymore. I don't know we. We begin the episode of course between the two of them They are. They clearly have Had A ROMP. They are not in Flagrante. Delicto as they say about peer Directo But they are nude in bed We do not see a lot of that between the two of them. This is not a show that leans into that angle so even seeing the aftermath of it. is certainly Saying something without show showing something saying right like it. Lets US know where they are in their relationship and keeping buying where that physical interaction came from what they were doing in the immediate moment proceeding that with the beer bottles? They're not on a healthy place right now and I don't know where that ends but you have to also keep in mind fun night. It seemed like a fun night. A Fun night even though. Jimmy says that's why you pay the rent Kim's still feels the need to sweep up the glass but it does seem like a very fun night for sure but they have been at odds like he's thinking of the refrigerator thief and the beginning of this season. Jimmy's a ploy and how upset dirty that made Kim feel and yet here she is. She by the way knows who she's dealing with. We see her. Watch the the the matlock moment or the courtroom drama moment The Better Call Saul one point zero. Beta version moment Where Jimmy switches the clients? She is takes that all in we see it almost from the back of her head. We watched the court disappear and she sits in wasted out. She knows exactly who she is getting when she brings Saul Goodman into this. Mix Off to work with Mr Aker so I I know that she can probably lash out against him later and be angry at herself for all of this she's a willing participant and again. I don't think it's that bad of a deal for her. Not Work for Mesa Verde anymore especially for her health and happiness so it has to be to be something more than it just goes bad. Half a day professionally. Yeah but I think that I think that certainly the audience loves Kim. Wexler and I think that the show loves Kim Wexler and I and I. I don't think that this show is GonNa give her a dark ending. Do you know what I mean like I agree. I think that this show is going to is going to give him wexler adjust ending and it's not going to be an easy path. But I think that Kim. Wexler is the kind of person who throws beer bottles and breaks them on cars but then cleans glass and I think that whatever bottles are about to break. She's GonNa Clean up the glass and she will. She will find something something to do. That will be productive in good and powerful again. Call me an optimist. I'm not that concerned for Kim in the long haul. I'm not either I'm not either and I'm certainly not concerned if Two weeks you're right like they're in this whole this whole enterprise is the way you treat other. People says a lot about the way. You're feeling about yourself at the time And the the bargains that you strike a as a result of that really are being exposed. That is certainly what we see he. Can we talk about poor lyle? Josh and everything that's happening with poor lifestyle in this episode. I'll on my God. It's still working at polio. Hermanos breaking bad to good question. I don't know the answer to that and I. I don't know that we ever see. I think that there's a way to find out because this is a guy. He clearly has risen to the level of Mr Manager. He's assistant manager. He is the he is clearly a guy who is very much in all of and desiring desperately to please Kosovo which is certainly in Gail Beker in that way and we see that gust clearly knows this and hit can really the cruelty of Gus. Fring clear here if he if he's working for gus into breaking bad time line. I don't believe we ever see him so I think it may be like eventually lyles. Just either GonNa get fired or he's just going to have it up to here with that. Was going to get them Josh. Yeah I mean Celaya. Justice is just a great name. Don't meet enough vials anymore. I think we've made just enough sardine lyles in the audience just enough just enough. Yeah this is a this is gossiping neighbor. Video game characters name. Was Lyle yet green hair he was a bad ass with. What does this fantasy star? Three fantasy start three. The I I only played the first two off malign fantasy star Sequel Fantasy Star. Three is the four story driven non. Mmorpg's fantasy stars. They made people are pretty thumbs down on three but I like it is spelled with an F. or a Ph Ph in the case Chelsea star. Yeah I mean it kind of represents the fantasy series to an extent. It's a little bit like final fantasy. Knockoff so lyle he has a fantasy star character. He is an assistant manager. He is somebody who is desperate to please. Gus Gus fring knows this. Lets HIM SUFFER? And you let them suffer. Why because God himself is suffering with the stress of figuring out if this dead drop plan is going to go off. He's sitting there waiting by burner phone and so if Gaza suffering someone else should suffer too right like I shouldn't have to suffer alone. What let lyle prostrate himself at my feet in the form of cleaning this Fryer to the point his hair is gonNA fall out And let me do all of that Because I'm I'm a little peeved that I have to give up seven hundred thousand dollars to DA. Yeah it's such 'cause like lyle is the most loyal loyal. Lyle a lyles very loyal to gus ring and he wants to do a good job and gusts making him like work until his nails. Fall off you know until his hands are bleeding. Not Be sanitary in any day and age. But certainly I'm glad to saul takes place in the past. Have been a little nicer than saying it was acceptable. Yes why do we have to continue what he was doing? Because that's what you said. He's pissed off right now and. I do think that we have seen when when gus has had when gus gets angry. Certainly when he gets his angriest he roars with fury and then explode. It's like you'd literally explodes Eerie but like usually like. His version of anger is quieter and is more resentful and he is very passive aggressive in his rage. This is yeah. This is a guy who quietly knelt. While he was taking out all of his rivals. With Boise yes yeah. He like very very casually like robotically knelt down removed his tie folded exactly like to make sure everything was going to be neat and clean a so he is maybe to some degree like a Germaphobe right like he made the to some degree true. Need breathe. Good timing exactly so like your hands. Everybody absolutely so he man like in a in a very real way be like. The Friar isn't acceptable to his standards. But usually he's just going to let it go or usually he doesn't like look closely enough. But I mean this is a guy who I think both like to maintain some level of cover but also probably because he enjoys like the the mundane nature of the work is. He likes to clean up polio. Surmount US you know. We we see him make doing with the trash. We see him sweeping the floors. I think it's both to maintain covered but also because there's something like mechanical and methodical about it and this is a very mechanical thoughtful guy and I think that like seeing the Fryer at a level that if he were the one who is cleaning it is not good enough for him and maybe to some degree. It's almost like get out if you're reliable. I want to clean it myself so that I have something to distract yourself with as I'm giving away all of this money to maintain a ruse. There could be an element of that. And it's a testament to lyle that like he got spring instill such loyalty. Even somebody who works at the chicken restaurant is going to put in that level of work but it was brutal brutal to see to see Lao do that. It was it was intercourse with the scenes of while gus was a undergoing his personal rage and quiet anger. it was intercut with the disappointment. Ultimately that Hank experienced we had Hanky Ghomi again in this episode Josh talking about the majestic covert of Spain. They're nice and relaxed throughout. But it is ultimately the hank a good character not is the kind of guy that concedes three hundred thousand dollars in arrest three people and still be very disappointed but then still pep up the troops with a rousing speech afterward. I think a very good character moment for character that I don't know how much more time we're going to spend in this season with of better call. I know earlier. This season on the podcast. You talked about We're hand could or could not fit. Do you think that this is the last? We'll see of Hank and go me or do you think we'll see him a couple more times. Or how do you think they fit in in this whole grand scheme going forward? After the disappointment that Hank suffered in this episode. Yeah I don't know so it. It seems to me that the company line is that like it was just like a quick flash in the Pan Cameo for for Hank and go me but like if this is still going to be ongoing with with with Domingo as a CI with crazy eights for four for hank and go me. Like I feel the kind of have to be here to some extent. I can't imagine like we're just totally done with them or at least maybe it's phone calls and stuff like that. I guess it's possible but I feel like the doesn't it feel like the story isn't done for them and I know the story continues in breaking bad so you know maybe they can just kind of like dip around it but I feel I feel like if this is it for Hanko me. I'm almost. I'm glad we got him like. I'm glad that we had two weeks of hand can go me on our screen but like just doesn't quite feel like enough the the question. I have really is. It's twofold one. What will the fallout? Be In terms of One BOLSA and Don Hector and all of the other involved parties don audio with gusts with the seven hundred thousand dollars going missing and Lalo. This was Lao's plan. Like what will the foul out be via via gus? All of that and is that something that the DA will be involved in well. There'd be violence That evolves as a result of whatever happens in this in this way. I don't know if that's something that we'll see but I feel like that. She still has to drop and that shoe dropping and whatever activity changes as a result of the seven hundred thousand dollars and whatever gusts revenge is right because that's the thing we know what causes ultimate revenge is in terms of Donald Audio and one Bolsa. But we don't know. Gus Is Revenge for this act will be and how? Gossi- response to this will be in terms of taking out of the mix. Whatever that is could easily involve especially with Domingo Getting his ear to the ground. What are you know? What have you seen? What have you heard? So I'm not sure we've seen the last of Hanko me vis-a-vis that But I feel like that's the next step in this. We have to see more of gusts now and what happens with Gus. As I said earlier in the season I still feel like the reference to what happened in Santiago and whatever gusts background is that makes him an outsider between he and the cartel. I think that's something that we could get into. I just think we're going to. We're going to encounter hank and go me vis-a-vis gusts and the ground that we still in this prequels. Breaking bad can cover with Gus. We have not seen it all. We will see it. All my thinking is and the more we see of Gus. The more likely we're going to invoke the DA even though he's a guy the DA never really had their eyes on He did he. I'm sure goes to great way. Meets GUS breaking bad? They're not as in. The office is known as a guy who is like great to the DA. All they had never met before so. I think that that closes a door to a certain extent I hang out but what I do. Think is that whatever. The aftermath of that with gus in this moment is will invoke frank all evoke hank and Gomez to an extent Gusts is not a guy who makes moves in a vacuum He clearly did not just do this without a plan I know has an idea of where this where this goes next. And what his next move will be. He's like a like a Kendall. Roy Josh what's your move. What's your next move like? He's got the moves on the board and he's always thinking about them. I think that's what happens with Mike in this episode. We on the same page about this Mike. Of course we don't see a ton of Mike he has an encounter with stacy trying to Babysit with Kaley. Like you're not right. Not Okay with you and Mike. I'm Fi- I would be more comfortable so you didn't sit for Kelly tonight okay. Go Away and get marry done. She says Mike you're done. It takes out on himself. I he's in that classic position we have seen from TV and film characters where he thinks he deserves punishment he knows. He deserves a little punishment. He invites the trouble. He invites the danger. He invites five. So it's a draw right now right like there's gotTa be around three. We gotta we gotta break the tie or these guys. Were on the wrong end of Mike last time. He's on the wrong end of them. Now when he whenever he makes his way back Albuquerque. We got to see round three assuming those guys are still alive because what happened is there is some sort of intervention. After Mike was staff might not remember that is round three Mike Seemingly Mexico I think just based on the way that was colored in a shot and everything is trailing Mike progress that would that would seem to be it right gusts. Head is on Mike. The whole time like this guy might be a liability. He's a loose cannon right now. I don't trust where he could end up. Just let's see what happens and yeah I think around three ended with some sort of victory showing pop up exactly And running them over with an Aztec and then ultimately taking Mike into some sort of recoup situation Mike will probably be encountering the doctor gusts Mexican doctor clinic where Mike has been bright. Yes exactly Mike obtained the drugs from them from that doctor last season when he was there to seem to go. I think when he was doing the thing with the shoes with the setup so I think that's probably where Mike will end up. I think Goss- was involved in that. I don't know I think what we're trying. We're we're trying to figure out right now where from a story standpoint and I don't know if you have any thoughts on this is how does mike end up back with gusts. Does this involve Mike Accepting some negative aspects of himself or does he see the good in what gusts is doing. How does Mike end up back in good graces with gossip or is it always going to be a relationship? We didn't realize and breaking bad. Which is that. Mike was just under gusts in a bad way the whole time. No I mean like when when when Walton Jesse pull off their plan to kill. Gus and Mike is Furious with them. You know we had a good thing with fraying like you. You rest up. You messed up a good thing with frame. I guess there's a read of that where like Mike was White. Knuckling his way through the spring enterprise but I always got the sense that he respected him and didn't have an issue working with gusts. So I think that there's certainly a sustained element of self loathing that Mike. Herman Chad is never going to recover from Because we know that he ends up being liquefied in a barrel doesn't end Welfare Mike. There's no universe where that where that shakes out in a different way. So I think he could he could. We could see him get to a place where he just resents himself so much that why not just sink lower why not just go. Further and further. Dan. I'm already at the bottom of the barrel. Let's see what's underneath that I that that's in play but I do also think that depending on where he is right now depending on who he meets you know if he's about to see like some of the generosity of gus spring what gus is able to do with the money. He's making like if there's some sort of like philanthropic effort that Gus really does care about like in terms of helping people south of the border and trying to make their lives a little bit better if there's if there's something like that that resonates within Mike if Mike is able to have like some kind of like you know wild west hero type of like saving a small towns sort of situation some some better call. Saul version of that type of the story. I think that you can imagine you can imagine Mike. Maybe building a level of respect for gusts that he currently does not possess so I think we got. We got to see where this story goes from here. I think it's it's clearly not you know. I think that it's very clear to me. That Mike is is out of Albuquerque and in a position where he is going to be forced to get a new perspective on the entire suffering. Enterprise and based on how breaking bad plays out. I feel like he's GonNa walk away from this feeling better about gus. Yeah and the doctor certainly helps with that right and seeing that aspect of it and some of the good things that gusts doing at his core though gusts bad guy and he is a drug dealer and he is the inventor of the show's all about excuses. You make a good person you know what Mr Kim Reich. It's like you're the kind of person donates to charity and make you think that you're a good person well. Mike doesn't have the perspective that Lydia has really kind of tried to force on him in even better call Saul when Mike says like. What are you doing all this for a drug dealer? Whatever HE SAYS TO LYDIA LYDIA SAYS LIKE. Listen if you'd think that all. Mr Frank is a drug dealer like you have no idea who he is. And so I think you're right him. Being out of Albuquerque and getting that perspective is probably worthwhile. It also probably helps to have a common enemy. I in terms of the Solomon because that's what brought them together. And so to the extent that something bad happens with Gus vis-a-vis the Salamanca's Mike might feel more connected in that way or Mike might feel more connected if he learns more and this is where my you know. My thought of Gusts backstory coming into play more may provide Mike some perspective that he's lacking right now. Maybe they have more in common than Mike. Realizes and maybe there is. There is a matty In Gus life or something like that. That W- vulnerability or some perspective. Really Change Mike View. I think that's Mike Story from this season. I have talked a lot on this podcast. Generally about how. It's funny that the the show breaking bad was very much following in the mold of its title that it was about Walter White Breaking Bad. It was about how that played out in Schuyler wide and some of these other characters around him even as other characters like Jesse Pink. Were finding redemption. This show better call Saul for me. It's about almost all of these characters breaking bad it's about almost all of them ending up in a worse place because that's where we find most of them the ones that are in it at the beginning of breaking bad in it is certainly the story of Jimmy. Miguel circling the drain. We've talked how it is. The story of Kim I think on this podcast and certainly other episodes of this podcast. We've talked about how it doesn't have to end that way for Kim. It can end with her in a better place or at least a place that is not so negative like it is with Saul Goodman. But from in Mike's case I think the greater story is him coming to grips with everything that happened with Mattie finding his peace with that such that he's able to be a cold blooded killer for Gus fring and not feel guilty about some of these things or at least find a way to channel that guilt in a negative way With you whether that's bad or good Is certainly up to your interpretation. But that's certainly where we're headed with. Mike so I think it's it's worthwhile to say. Where are we in terms of signposting that in right now? I think it's going to involve might not selling out some aspect of his personality but whatever that aspect of his personality is that feels bad about Mattie a finding some way that that can resonate or that that resonates with whatever it is. He's going to learn about the GUS. Fring organization that's going to him feel like he can work with this guy. I don't think it's going to mean compromising himself entirely. I just don't think the story of the Mike Character is going to be selling out all of the humanity and himself. Maybe it is. Maybe that's where we're headed. I just I find it more likely that it's going to be that he finds like you're saying a way to buying that humanity to some part of Gus fring story. That's human as well so I think to you talk about how breaking bad is about people breaking in is better call. Saul like how do you apply the title to better calling Saul but but actually I do think it's certainly not as elegant clean as breaking bad because Saul is is hanging on the the the hinge of specific character. But I think that the idea for me that you could broadly apply to the main characters of the show. Is this notion of summoning a persona. And what you can do and what you're capable of for good and for ill when you are not operating as yourself you are operating as a fiction your operate your wielding a badge. You're behind something. There's a shield it's got a name. It's not always Saul Goodman for everybody. There's for Mike. Can he operate differently? If he is able to maintain like I'm gusts guy. And that's not who he should be. But he summons that up within himself for Kim there are these moments where she summons this side of herself. This persona where she's willing to to work in a different way and that's calling that's calling quote Unquote Saul for Jimmy. It's obviously a lot more clear for chuck is he. Is He summoning this persona in you know the electromagnetic phobia that he's concocted for himself concocting this persona that he is. He's the older better wiser brother. And so I think that permeates better call saw and I think that insofar as like breaking bad is about a how different people do unforgivable things and can they either. If you can't quite come back from it can you stop is more the question for me. Can you stop? Can you stand against it? No I think and I think it's a similar question for better call saw a is. Can you be authentic? Can you be can you can you ditch the persona can ditch the bullshit and I think that different characters. We're going to have different answers to that question. Savvy I think for Mike. It'll come too little too late And I think that the jury is still out where it pertains to folks like Kim and Jimmy where we know you know you would think just based on the ending of breaking bad that we've got our answer as it pertains to Jimmy and Jean Story. Line is very bleak right now but is there a way that Jimmy can cast even the gene persona away? Is HE GONNA be able to tear that stuff? Up and become Jimmy McGill again and all that that entails which will be pleasant. I think that these are the questions at the show asks definitely and I think that's very eloquent way to look at it and I think they would be the people that make. The show would be proud to talk about the show on this level because that is what happens. And that's the position they're in because of Making a prequel right. Because they're they're in in certainly dealing with some cave even talked about Nacho in on this episode because he wasn't in it but he's in this same boat right and so there are a lot of these characters that are facing these questions and it's just a matter of how it all gets resolved And I think when I do you know from a production standpoint when they were making these episodes in the middle of Susan five did they know do they know that they were ending with season six. I'm not sure I don't. I don't think so but I don't know for sure because that's obviously those are very different things. They suspect. I'm sure I'm sure you know. I think there are certainly not building season. Five thinking this is the final season but I think that they got a imagine that you know with with ratings the budget and contrasting that. They've got one more season if that yeah so I think that they probably are into the point where they know. They're they're close to the game. Now I've seen all the possibilities they know which one will work And they know who has to die and who has to live for that to be the case so I I think my thinking is what the gene they had they have. At least I plan in mind when they're saying I'M GONNA take care of it myself. I think that know that this may be a black and white Kim and Jimmy Caper. And that's what we're GONNA get or it may be Jimmy trying something that's going to end up in a certain way that doesn't involve. Kim. I think they have. The is what. I'm saying with that with regard to the rest of this stuff I'm not sure but it is It is an episodes like this in the middle of this season can feel a little wheel. Spinney like we talked about The the the bowling ball of all the cold. Open the smelling of the farts But they're from a character standpoint. I think they are moving these pieces around knowing where they're going and how much time they have to get there. I just wanted to hit a couple of more a couple more things a little deeply as we wrap up here on the scene with Jimmy and the fifty percent off crew that we reference He's got a lot of salt goodman bluster in that scene It works it works. He pulls the trick did he just watched. Hank poll with getting up to leave the room and knock on the door. I did not like this all goodman. This guy's an asshole and this is I think the most Saul Goodman we have seen from Jimmy Gill in the course of this series. Would you agree with that? Yeah yes it's not good right like doesn't play well on this show because we know Jimmy McGill and because we know everything he can be. This is the salt. Come in from breaking bad. And he's an asshole and I hate him. I don't like seeing him. It's so funny. The magic the show has been started off being like. Oh man here we go. Let's find out. Oh he's too Jimmy McGill. This is so weird. What a strange transition and now as he's transitioning to solve Goodman. We're like I miss. Jimmy McGill. Well it's funny and the next thing that I want to talk about a little bit more is at the lunch. It's funny because at the lunch when Howard Asks Him who is Saul Goodman he gives. Jimmy gives that big speech about you know he's a David. Yeah he's the David right exactly. He's the last line of defense for the Little Guy. He's a writer of wrongs and a friend to the front list. That is not the guy that we saw in that previous scene so he that is not who Saul Goodman is that may be who. Jimmy wants to package assault Goodman Howard is right to assume like why? Couldn't Jimmy McGill. Do all that like. He's right to observe that but I think the juxtaposition of those two scenes is fascinating to me because that is not Saul Goodman is that might be who Jimmy thinks he wants to represent Esau Goodman but when the doors are closed and no one else is around? Who saw goodman is is who we saw in that previous. He's a real Dick Sucks Sucks Saul Goodman's the guy that's thrown the bowling. Ball's into your car for having the audacity to offer him a nice job. Yeah Yeah Yeah to apologize to you to see worth in you like Saul Goodman's the guy that throws a bowling ball at you for that. That's who saw goodman is. He's not the guy even though Howard is eating soul by the way Every time someone orders soul fish I think. Oh they're eating soul. I remember in two thousand and four on election day John Kerry was running for president against George W Bush and they said on the news like John Kerry had his normal lunch today. He ate soul. And I'm like he did. What some souls exactly supposed to stay sane in politics exactly. Yeah you had to get to sell your so you may lead someone else's but but yeah Howard normal launch eat soul but this is this is just what it is. He has the audacity to see value in. Jimmy McGill to apologize to. Jimmy McGill to Jimmy. He's Goliath so long. Get A slingshot. I'm going to throw a rock at him right exactly. Yeah in the form of a bowling ball. That's what I'm GONNA do. I maybe I am Charlie Hustle. And that's the thing Howard like. I'm not reds fan. Through and through I grew up. Pete Rose my favorite baseball player. Charlie hustles not a good guy so like you know anything about him so it is. It is admirable to say Pete. Rose played baseball really hard. His nickname was Charlie Hustle. Like it's very admirable to say like you work very hard you somebody walks when you run to you sprint. To first base you try to turn every single into w run as hard as you. Can you play harder? You're the guy that does the headfirst slider bowls over the catcher in an all star game. But you're also the guy who bet on baseball. You're also the guy who has all sorts of other criminal allegations the guy who didn't pay his taxes and went to jail. You're the guy who will write anything including kill JFK or I was the Zodiac killer on a baseball for one hundred bucks. Like you're not a good guy and I think that's the problem is that Howard is Charlie Hustle. He's not seeing who saw goodman is which is pete rose. And that's the that's the real problem with with Howard Hamlin here Charlie Hustle maybe not the most aspirational thing including the haircut. So at the end of the Charlie Hustle. Here just look at Pete. Rose Haircut that the best but he rose haircut. Take a look at the the thing I want to finally end with is it. Sometimes he looks like Frankenstein. Sometimes you like the sixth beetle you got like a Dutch boy. The little boy not the page haircut from page from Mesa Verde but a page boy not great and it's just so chunky and got a chunky kind of hair it's thick it doesn't work bad. Look send it back. Yeah colored problems in the kitchen sink. Area Jimmy mcgleish though. Be careful what you're doing there but at the end of the day It is it the Charlie. Hustle has reputational risk And that's the final thing I wanted to go with here is. Kim Is really hammering. This as her selling point to Page and Kevin Wachtel at Mesa Verde by the way if you want to be in the background little Easter egg the Mesa Verde billboard that is visible and took them carry has a phone number. You call it. You can hear a little personal message from Kevin Walk. Tell so if that's what you're dying for go ahead and screen shot that call that number and you can hear the dulcet tones of one. Kevin walked out. It's fun talk to you about Mesa Verde but the reputational risk scenario that is that is her pitch and I think she thinks that to a to a corporation that will be the good pitch. But I think it's fascinating that she thinks about that. She is cognizant of reputational risk in the same episode where she is literally and figuratively lying down with Saul Goodman. You WanNa talk about a reputational risk like that. I think again speaks to where this story is heading reputational risk. If she's really concerned about that she should not be associated associated with Jimmy McGill point blank and the period right. Yeah bad bad good bad. It's bad and it. The the way that the Mesa Verde scenario is set up to look like a setup to the torn every house down in this neighborhood already like the whole. The whole scenario is is weird like if they wanted to build a company town there. I don't think the solution would have been to buy every house that was already in the neighborhood and tear it down like they are in the midst of what looks like as I said last week. Some kind of eminent domain battle. Even though it's not because there is a landlord involved in there is a deal already in place and they're just trying to essentially now to evict the guy it is. I don't know why they did all of that. Tearing down of things and they wanted the visual on the show clearly but Mesa Verde is not in the This was a hail Mary by him. I don't think we are meant to think that this should have worked. It is a Hail Mary. It didn't work. That's where we're at and so she goes to a different. Hail Mary and Mary She. Hails is not a Mary. It's a saul. She better call Saul. It didn't work. It's not gonNA go well. I don't think so. We'll be back with. Certainly we'll be back about the fifth episode especially as things continue to go sideways now. The glacial pace of this show sometimes maiming that we don't go fully sideways on this until episode. Eight or nine of the season but we seem to be careening in that direction Kim No stranger to car wrecks. I think we could be headed for a figurative line By the end of this season for sharp in five season five episode. Five dead. Kado Max. I'm accreditated to Max. I think that's my Spanish so hip thing. I've been trying to teach myself the Spanish so that it's fun. I like the scenes in this show. that are in Spanish Sometimes characters who should be speaking Spanish adult and that always makes me laugh but but yeah I I'm enjoying that dedicated to Max. I don't remember if there's a Max in the breaking bad timeline or not just going to quickly look. This will be a spoiler But Oh okay so this. This is a big tip off Do you want me to say who it was. Yeah sure of course. Max was The other polio. Hermano was the He was the CO founder of those closer to medicine. Okay okay okay. That's exciting so maybe we're looking down the barrel of some real gus spring backstory next week which. I don't know if that will help her or hurt ultimately Mike but that we could get it via the Mike situation like we were talking. That's interesting I mean I think if Mike comes to understand not just like maybe forget like the humanitarian aspects of Gus. But if he's able to find a way to relate to gus on the same level as he relates to himself right now that he's become worse and worse and worse because of what happened to his son. Is he going to be able to relate to gus once he gets a little bit of a glimpse at Gusts as personal tragedy? That's fascinating to be cool. Now I'm really hyped. I'm really hyper preps at five. This is GonNa be all right. Well we will be back to talk about episode five Josh. How can people reach out to us? If they want to send feedback to the PODCAST. They could send feedback on. Twitter is is a good way to do it at ACS ZARA. How many how many hours are at round? Howard at post show recaps at pusher RECAPS DOT. Com is an email address that is available. If not it's better call push recaps dot com and you can subscribe to us. We've got the better call Saul feed. You could find us on your podcast APP choice if you like the apple feed post show recaps. Dot Com slash. Bcs itunes is my belief that that is the link. So finest any one of those number of ways. And I'll just take a quick plug that we've got so much happening on post show recaps right now. Post show recaps very very busy at the moment exciting times as looking for more and more digital content. We've got you covered. I'm looking at the schedule for next week. And we've got seven podcasts on the board West road coming back. So we'll have our westworld premier recap. We're also having if not weekly than at least frequent bonus west role of podcasts. Coming back we've got a really fun special guest lineup for the first of those two episodes coming up next week. Curb your enthusiasm we're reaching the penultimate episode Rob Akiva and myself spoke with. Alli this past week. Which was aren't they got a word in edgewise areas. Really really fun so we're going to be back. We'll be talking about the pen ultimate curb next week jess and I were continuing full steam ahead on walking dead. I've actually seen Sunday nights coming episode hot tape best episode of the season so far by a mile. I'm really excited to talk to us about that. Jessen Mike bloomer talking about Star Trek Picard which I think is actually getting. It's right at the same spot I believe I think it's at the penultimate of star. Trek Picard right now. Which I'm sadly behind on but I know that Mike and jess have been having a blast on that podcast and Mike and I have been having a blast on the down the hatch. Podcast where we were talking about lost one episode at a time. We are at the very end of the spoiler alert. If you never watched lost I'm gonNA spoil the thing from season to you can just skip ahead thirty seconds. We'll be done. We're at the end of the ANA. Lucia kills Shannon trilogy. We'RE GONNA to be talking about collision in the next episode of down the hatch. So that's seven. Count them seven because we'll have a better call Saul podcasts. Next week as well seven podcasts on post. Show recaps if you're bored if you're locked down right now if you're trying to just minimize the time you're spending outdoors. You could just hang out with us. We've got you covered. Where in your ears. We are here for you. Please stay safe we are. We're trying to do our best to keep entertain in occupied during what is arguably very difficult and weird time existential for us in our in our lives right now and if there's anything that we are doing on the podcast side that's helping you push through the pain. It is truly our pleasure to bring that to you. It's obviously not an altruistic pursuit because it's truly pleasure truly is and we will be here. Hopefully as long as the lights stay on earth ever abiding are crazy schedules. Antonio and I were trying to record much earlier in the week I had a technical malfunction. Answer you've had some happy news in in your life recently cast cast money Massaro House. My nephew caches Leon Cannizzaro born this week. Right on your birthday Josh. So lots going on in addition to global pandemic stuff. So it's just like whatever can happen is happening right now but that includes finds a way for. Forgive some lateness in the schedule. But we're we're hooking you up with the podcast so we're hoping we're hoping that you're staying. Subscribe Push recaps because we got you covered all right anything else. You WanNa hit Josh. That's the stuff all right. Thank you guys. Thank you everybody for. Thank you to everyone for listening and for tuning in and thinking about better call Saul in your time of need We will certainly be back to talk about episode five dedicated to Max a week so I look forward to that. Thanks everybody take care. Wash your hands.

Howard Jimmy Chuck Howard Jimmy McGill Saul Goodman Besmirch Kim Howard Hamlin Saul Kim Wexler Jimmy Right Mesa Verdes Mr Aker bowling Jimmy mcgeough Ville JOSH RYAN Hank Charlie Hustle Jimmy New Beverly Hills Mike Mesa Verde
Episode 1174 - Rhea Seehorn

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

1:33:33 hr | 2 months ago

Episode 1174 - Rhea Seehorn

"Pay people documentary filmmaker and self described anxious new yorker. John wilson serves as writer director cameraman producer and narrator of the all new. Hbo docu comedy series. How to john wilson in a uniquely areas odyssey of self discovery and cultural observation wilson films. The lives of his fellow new yorkers while attempting to give every day advice on relatable topics. How to john wilson and hbo original is now streaming on hbo. Max a right okay. Let's do the show all right. Let's do this. How are you what the fuck. What the fuck buddies. what the fuck knicks. What the fuck tablets with those. What the fuck top. What's out there. I choose to obsess on the little things. That's how i ground myself spiritually. The relief was short-lived. It's still there. I think there's a bedrock of relief about what transpired in the national election here in the united states of america but now not surprisingly we have to deal with whatever the fuck this god. Damn manic narcissistic compulsive delusional. Fuck is is going to put out there in the next couple of months am eating crappy. I'm festering. i'm getting obsessed with the the little things the cast iron obsession has a reignited. And that's not great. I'm not excited about that. But this the way i've always been. What is your spiritual discipline. I'll tell you. I find something to get obsessed with something specific whether it be learning how to do something on guitar. A particular band who's records. I need Cast irons and other one fucked up a cast iron pan so now that could like that's a whole rabbit hole that i've been down. I don't know if i needed could just buy another pan be at this time. Investing like we'll get the seasoning. I put on it. but it's like it's fucking gunk and it's fucked up guys start over how do i get the gunk off. I don't know. I scraped it all off. And then i received in its sealed some of the gunk in now it's got this texture to it so now i'm trying to decide. Do i commit to this plan. This twenty five dollars lodge cast iron pan. Defend him break. My brain caused me frustration. Give me a go are. They're bigger yes. I i'd like to help out. Did i mentioned that. Racy horn is on the show. Racy horn the lovely racy horn. She plays kim wexler. I'm better call saul. We talked before the election. Who's a lovely talk. I'm just trying. I'm trying not to get too obsessed with my fucking cat you guys you know. It's like. I got one cat a malone here in the house so that poor guy he gets too much attention and i'm constantly like okay. Everything all right. Why are you sleeping all day. Why are you sleeping on. the couch. Don't usually sleep in the chair. Yeah right you sick. Why are you sleeping on the couch. do you want something. Do you wanna snack. See no matter what your cat is like. Giving them dry treats actually is a great way to show affection. However if you want to do more for your cat give them delectable liquor table cat treats the best tasting wet treats that cat series. We can't get enough of. Delectable are the first and only wet cat treat. Were the meat and sauce are mixed together. They come in a variety of textures and flavors plus senior formulas for older cats. Your cat will whip the bowl clean every time and love you back for doing more for them. Look for buster pretty much. Anything is better than him biting through my hand as some you know he did but your cats treat them the best with delectable livable treats find delectable is online at chewy amazon shop at your local walmart and other stores that sell catch rates. Okay i'm trying not to freak out got. It's got focus on that pan but is it cognitive dissonance. If i know the reality yet i'm choosing to focus on my life and choosing to focus on what i can do within that life and all lives are limited now because reality is limited because there's a fucking plague running rampant on the planet but insanely rampant in this country. No one seems to give a fuck really. We've got a president quickly eating himself to death and feeding a fucking delusion to sort of eighty ninety percent of his hours that somehow the election was rigged with no proof whatsoever believe what we believe is real despite evidence of the contrary. Break your fucking brains forever by taking big heap and shitty spoonfuls of cognitive dissonance provided for you by this administration. Fuck man. I get up. I put my shoes on. put my pants on. I dress like a day is happening. And i do shit i do. This got racy horns can talk to talk to her today. I got the bowie movie coming out. That's the other thing fucking eat me a little bit. I made this bowie movie stardust. It's called with johnny. Flynn i play. Music publicist name overman. Johnny plays David it's not a bio pic. It's a small swath of david. Bowie's life but this weird pushback that this idea that this movie has to be garbage without seeing it or knowing anything about it because the family didn't sign off on providing or allowing songs to be used that it was against david bowie's wishes david bowie was an artist. He created art for the public sphere for decades and decades. David bowie had has sought and has been and made himself available to be reckoned with as a fucking artist of the highest degree on many levels. You know you can write books about bowie. you can criticize or appreciate his. His music his acting ovid. There's oodles and oodles of articles. Written pictures drawn books written. It's open for interpretation so the idea that the they didn't want to sign off on the rights to music for the film fine it gave our director. Gabriel range more freedom. But the truth is every artist seeks interpretation. This is an interpretation of a story based on a true story. That happened to david bowie. That was done with nothing but love for the guy yet. The weird sort of contempt prior to investigation. You'll holding this line that you can't make an interpretive piece of art about one of the biggest artists of the twentieth century fucking grow up. Don't go see the movie then. Jesus christ is the man angry. I'm not angry just had enough of some things. All right it's different. Maybe you haven't always thought of socks as the perfect gift or the perfect way to give back but bomba's socks were made to give literally when you give a pair of super comfortable bomba socks. You're not only giving someone a gift though. Love your also donating a specially designed pair to someone in need. Because for every pair of socks bomba cells donate a pair to someone experiencing homelessness across the us. Bomba's are specially engineered to be the most comfortable pair of socks. You everyone on your gift list has ever worn. They spent years perfecting every detail. Eliminating those annoying co seems making sure their socks never swept and creating a special mid foot support system bombay's coming tons of different colors and styles including athletic performance socks women at addition holiday socks dress socks and socks made from merino wool. I know it seems like socks or socks. But i'm a true believer in bama's they really live up to the hype. They do from comfort to kindness and everything. In between bama's aren't they were made to go to bomba's dot com slash w. t.f today and get twenty percents off your first order. That's b. o. M. b. a. s. dot com slash w. t.f. They're good socks. I'm excited to get some more bomba socks Racy hornets here. You can watch episodes of better call saul amc dot com or at the amc app. And again. I need to preface this by saying we talked before the election. This is me and right. Seahorn who i love Holding up okay. I'm i'm in my garage where i hide. It makes things. What do you make in the garage. Well i can't. I designed a piece of furniture with built in shelves in a desk to hold all of my different supplies to do things whether it's pretend that i'm gonna write a script day or a ton of supplies. Lot arts place here. I sculpt and paint just got back to oil painting. Thanks to the pandemic. thanks really soon. So is this. Is this structure for the garage. This structure wise. I have only rented in los angeles and this structure was built for my last place. And actually it comes apart. It has Coming from new york and dc and being only a renter. My whole life. Everything i do has to make minimal wall damage so i built it to interlocks and pieces. Wow so i mean you have a future in furniture design and stay jobs in. Dc flat out lied to someone. When i was asked to help. I went to school for art and understand. Color design and composition and stuff But had not done any carpentry craftsman stuff and I was dating this guy who was looking for Someone to decorate his his new basement apartment in dc. And i yes liden. So that i had done it before as so many days at home depot in the front where they have all the books and it was like like it was like early barnes and noble style just sitting down and reading all of them and not paying anything. And did you Would you successful in pulling off your scam as a phony decorator. Two and a half weeks to do something. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to take so wait. Did you grow up in dc. No now but i was there for a huge chunk of mine. Budding i Born in norfolk moved to japan immediately. Then era zona than virginia beach. And then i went to school at mason and i did theater for twelve years in washington. Dc before moving near. Do you remember japan idea. Even though i was young i was do you. Some people act like they have crystal clear memories and other people have none. I have a couple of memories from like h two to five. I have one of being Hit in in a face with a can and but the next thing. We're going to say. I have never remembered anything again but i i was i was. I was very young for that. I think i have a couple of memories but nothing like bits and pieces. Why were you. Where'd you go to japan. My dad civilian but my dad was Naval intelligence agent. What is that and i s and i s i s that like the tv show Yeah now it's ncis but at that time it was nis yes okay. He was an agent for thirty three years. I think the last five he was a superior adviser not in the field but he was in the field. When i was younger. But that's a that's a civilian gig. I guess so. I mean he was He was urgency and then he was a rate He was rotc for army. And and Went to virginia tech and then was recruited as a ranger and to vietnam really and switched to by the time he was in vietnam. You work and he was in tech offensive holy that. There's not a lot of stories that i would here but we definitely moved. We've moved to virginia five family. You remember that in one thousand nine hundred crazy Kinda do what was that about right right like yeah they were. It was like two brothers and one of the brothers. Why one was navy. Cia the wife was kind of They sold schematics to navy ship. And like all the way to prison said like. I didn't get anybody killed. This isn't but they were selling schematics. That show where the weak points are on the ships. Like if you were to bomb them. Here's how to take to wear to russia. Yeah i do remember that so your dad was on that case. Yeah but like in in terms of like his he was an army ranger that went into intelligence and i mean he sounded like a pretty so he was in the forces impressive guy he was in the army he was but he was not enlisted. And i know get some of the terminology. It was not enlisted in the navy. Not and we were civilian by the time. He was an agent. So you're telling me that all the information you have about his experience in vietnam you just gave me. I have a few more things. But they're as secretive as animated show. Now you mean tell me that you might have to kill me that kind of thing. You know he died. He died when i was eighteen. Oh he passed away when your way. It's all i was going to say as i am aware now. I'm hyper aware. Now that i would that we mythology is the dead and sometimes on so i'm of my memories are probably conflated with The lore of him and other people's tails and other stuff about him movies probably not so mice goes on stories were weird and at the end. It was pretty Pretty paranoid and Unfortunately died from alcoholism. So i'm not entirely sure of the stories towards the end. What were true. And what were muddied. Oh he had gotten himself His brain started to go fifty fifty tail so it wasn't dimensioned. Oh wow that said yeah but did and your mom she's awesome. She's super finding both of my both my parents Very very funny. great storytellers. in what did she do. She was a paralegal and different high level Assistant and secretarial and administrative quality control stuff for the government also has civilian For many many years and retired recently but she still inactive avon lady and she is good important. American needs him. it's. I'm glad i thank her for her service lesson. She's seventy seven and still like loves to get her little lipstick samples out and i love it. Oh that's hilarious. Where is she worshiped. Isn't chesapeake okay. So all right stepped up. Also when you're old man died were they together. There were not and there was no love lost. There was not a to shed from her. they were. We're your are your are your parents around. Where they are they are. They're around. they're not together. No they're not together and my mother's with a lunatic down in florida. My father's with a saint in albuquerque and My mom's like seventy something and my dad's like eighty one or eighty two and they're they're kind of hanging in are they've even got quarantine. Yes i mean. I don't know if my dad's wife is per se. It seems that she may be going to church. But my mom and her boyfriend had definitely being good and my dad doesn't go out anyways. They're being safe there. Okay right now you know how about your mom. My mom is very similar to the moms. I'm hearing about from a couple of friends and some dads that there it's not just assigned to her age bracket either there's some adults my peers in my life. People people have a different definition for what they think is playing safe and it's a pretty big range. I kind of leeway late. my mom says suffolk. I'm not i'm not. i'm not even going out. I'm complete i. I literally go to like walmart twice a week. And maybe three or four grocery stores and that's why are you going to five shopping. She lives with her husband. And as many people from that generation do. she's a full like bunker of food. The second freezer the second. Fred right right. She could live and she does this on purpose for sixty days out of her garage. Second kitchen So i'm like well why you're only cooking for you in kenya. What do you what's going on there. well right if i have coupons and let's say one grocery store has beans on sale and the other grocery store has bread on sale and the other one has green beasts hats. Go to all three. I'm just like can you please save thirteen cents and your lungs. She's she's still needs to have her hobbies. And chasing coupons at is when it is not willing to give it up yes yes and she also she. She talks to everyone. She knows everybody at walmart. And so. I think it's partially that she just needs to go. See what france doing you know like. I know that's like it's dangerous to some degree that she wearing a mask she me and she wears one glove to grocery shop and keeps the other one behind your back. She's like don't waste to gloves. My gloves are gonna lasts twice as long. I think he got. I think you have to do calculated risks to maintain your sanity. Do you know what i mean. Yes i do honestly to admit though. I mean like i'll go through three supermarkets basically i'll go to. I go to ralph's down the street. I go to whole foods. Now go to fish king. You know we didn't even why why just because it's like helpful because if if coupon yeah if i have a crew no i i go to ralph's for the watermelon and acquit. If i need some organic veggies. I'll go there quickly in and out. Quick whole foods. A couple of things that i stock up. But i'm going there less and less because there's just a tornado of fuck activity with the people that buy shit for other people at whole foods. So you never know what day you're going to be caught up in this world wind a weirdos with these kim foil bags running around and just working for like postmates an instacart. Not the right. I don't know who they work for amazon. Or what no. No it's it's it's a service. But it's and i've also got now. I've got like an n ninety five mask and a face. Shield that i will wear. Yeah wow sure sure but yeah to. I am so in order for me to go out and use my coupons. I will wear space helmet. Because i don't want to change my life. I've had i only recently had this couple. That are best friends of mine and my fiance's over and we did the hall but it was just four of us total at a pin table. That's eight feet long and one couple on one and we're on the other end and socially distance and the whole thing and we ordered food in eight outside. It was nice. It was really nice to see someone in person but then someone else had a going away party for somebody and has a huge enormous backyard minds like postage stamps size but this person a huge huge yard and there were like eight adults all sitting at a very large outside table and i freaked out. I thought it would be fine. And i went and i freaked out to the point where i had to apologize either like texting. Call people to apologize the next day. Because i didn't understand what was going on and instead kept just drifting away to other areas where there were it was like a bad game. As soon as the right to talk to me would move to the cluster of two and then moved to the cluster. It's horrible feeling was really strange. Yeah i was just wildly uncomfortable. But i was so curious as to why couldn't just say it like why i felt embarrassed to just say you know. I think i made a i think i think i'm coming and i'm gonna go. Yeah right 'cause i can't handle it. I think part of me wanted to be okay. Yeah me too. It's weird that there's this moment where where it's like. Why am i the one feeling shame. I'm the one scared and doing the right thing. Yeah i don't know what i mean. Everybody was lovely. When i you know said sorry. The real good. You gotta deal to do exactly what you're comfortable with and other things. I'm so terrified. I don't wanna be a hypocrite. But i'm also terrified of looking have like massive imposter syndrome anyway my whole life. That's just like. I'm always not sure like this is who i really am. I secretly like awful. And it's all a sham that they pretend that i'm not an absolute terrible person and so i'll see pictures on the news of people having massive parties or clustering on the god damn it. Don't they realize and then the second. I even have two people in my backyard. I'm like oh. I'm one of those people one of those people. I'm on the news this. Yeah we should all be in an above ground pool with twenty other people act like the helicopters are going to break arnie with three people. So like what do you like. Is that a real thing. What is imposter syndrome do i. Haven't you have to know listening to you on our great. You had a great. Npr interview where you were talking about that. You're sort of regular aisling. Place is is discomfort right. No i do live but like the impostor syndrome is. It's not just about being a fraud. And what you do like creatively or for job. It's literally like no one sees that. I'm a monster i'd i mean i'm sure some people have it in their job but yeah Of of don't match your outside. What's really inside us. This fragile awful thing but everybody thinks there's something else you unanimously. If you get to a place where people perceive you as added value in the room at your skill in actor or a writer. Interviewer or god help you as a human than it makes me back up even further and go who full full. It's one scene away from being found out. I'm glad that that for most of my life. I was never considered added value. I would say. I would say for about forty years of my life added. Value is not on my resume the opposite like let's rethink the merrin invitation. So that's where my is but people will tell you otherwise and the the more intelligent and more lovely. The the people which you at this point in your lights in for years now are surrounded by inhabitants. Run by very intelligent. Lovely people who seem to really know what they're doing so are they idiots that they've invited you to join the project not in your head. I get it. I get it but you know what that i've also realized. Oh like in terms of like why. I wasn't successful for a long time. Or whatever is that you know they're going to understand the part of you that you're making available that they can use so on some level i mean there's a truth to it like because for years people would try to box me in. You know you're the cranky guy. You're this guy did this. And i'm like i'm much broader than this and you know and a lot of levels of cranky right a lot of it's completely out of control and unattractive and but like you behave in relation to your expectation that their expectations of you these particular people but a lot of them don't know you really right right right. And it's a certain amount of ego to even think they care. Why do they they. Don't cry in the corner late at night. It's our job to be professional. We can't lean on them as if there are lost parent right exactly and don't get me wrong. I am not someone that shows up to acting. Where can i get that. You are either and treating it like therapy. That isn't that's that's not freaking break from the i. I thought i'd do what we're doing right now for therapy i do. I do stand up for therapy acting. I'm just surprised anyone buys it. I mean it's like i wasn't an actor. It came so much later. I just like know. I i learned to listen and i can show up and turn things off in my personality but you know acting is like it's definitely not therapy. I wins the first time you did acting like that. You would not consider your stand-up. Oh you didn't like you weren't doing schtick you're actually acting in a scene i guess I guess almost famous was probably that little bit. I did in there. But i never even had an agent forever. I didn't know. I don't even know if i was represented. I just realized early on that in terms of what comics were available for which was like one or two line parts in movies or tom roles. You know there's really people that i didn't give a fuck about one or two line parts. It was just silly. Do you go in for these things. And you're like it's coming from the sky that thank you you know so but then get that part. No thank you. But but then there's the sitcom parts where it's just like their guys better than me at this. I don't want to do this. I was casting a movie recently to play this sort of beat up like you know cheesy lawyer guy and it was in two scenes and it was in new york. You could hire a guy. That's really this guy. So i just you know what i mean and i felt bad that take you even going. You know making myself available to take away from From actors on that level. Because i was really fundamentally comic i always wanted to act but i didn't pursue it i just. I just didn't. Because i was not confident enough and i just always assumed that in the tv world. There were people better than me doing it which is trying to can't. That's not an immovable. Object no no no better obviously. I'm okay now. But i'm still because i got nothing to lose. I don't give a fuck you know. I haven't seen glow my apologies. But i've seen you in sort of trust and you're amazing. Oh yeah i love the. I love you and lynn. For the first time together at the spirit awards. She loved you. I mean she would like you know she would like you know we'd watch saul and she'd be like i gotta do somewhere. It was like she really wanted to do something. I know on my my condolences to you. Thank you thank you. Yeah i wrote her. After i saw i was very late to your sister's sister and a watched it and sort of trust was just coming out and i and i followed her on twitter and she was tweeting. Something about sort of trust coming out. And i wrote Oh my god you're works amazing. I'm so excited to see it and She ended up. I forget if it was the. Dm right away or was a regular tweet but She she started talking about saw. And i was so excited that she watches it. Because her her proclivity for finding the smallest intimacies in scenes and Coming storytelling from a character from a character base instead of a plot base Not that there isn't a plot in her movies but that's the in always with so beautiful. It's something that i strive for in the show. I'm doing now and and would then we immediately like we have to do something together we have to have to have to then the pandemic and Yeah i have. I have some lovely tips from her when she would watch episodes of salt she We want shoes. I burst into tears if i. I think i was sitting there when that happened. So but like you know in terms of acting with you like it seems like you have a lot of other interests. You're painting doing things. You're building your high. Have because what's going on right now. I'm i'm quite. I'm quite restless playing myself right but it's but you like did you come out. Like was acting always thing or we just like generally expressive person that ended up doing the acting. I mean was there another plan. Yeah my my much to my parents chagrin. My backup plan was to be a painter lucrative pursuit either but at one point it was flipped growing up in mostly in virginia beach. On by the time. I started thinking about what i wanted to do. Got to ask you real quick. I forgot to ask you about japan. Would you remember. Oh i'm i remember. I remember being in a quonset hut at first and my mom brealey getting aggravated that. My dad wasn't a pushing too. We were supposed to get a house in a regular civilian neighborhood instead of staying in quonset hut in and i think he was dragging his feet and playing barbies my room and my mom coming in extremely constantly and saying i have one sister girls Pick up all your stuff on fire. We're gonna we're gonna wait outside and it was like wack and she was super calm and we waited in the street and lake. She had a bag packed already. I've never asked her about it but I'm pretty Pizza box that was in the oven and they got turned on anyway. We moved to a house immediately. And what else. I remember feeling my first earthquake huge. I remember feeling that. In alaska. When i was like i was probably seven. How old were you in japan. Two to five. But i totally remember what czar sensation through worse. Still a bizarre absolutely. Yeah it's it's it's it's literally your world shaking and the only time that that's not a figurative statement there yes like it's like it's a real brain fucker you're like no there's no stability anywhere exactly and the moment before you registered that. That's what's happening is also super weird. That like mel which has happened to me. Now in california to where you're like am i that something happened to my own. An earthquake like that little second people are. It's so lost it what's going on. I also remember hating there. Was there's a thing in on a traditional japanese cultures that when you go to visit house and you're trying to pay respect to his position in this situation would be my dad at businessmen were coming over on. You are supposed to give the most lavish gift you can to. Only the eldest daughter i am the youngest of two and i is to scream bloody murder. My sister has beautiful. You got no dory festivals and that's about it. It's a beautiful place. I'd like to go there So like how did you got out from under the curse of having an alcoholic parent without getting alcoholism. While i i That's a deep question. I don't consider myself an alcoholic. But i do pay a lot of attention to When i drink and why and in trying to make sure. I am trying to make sure i pay attention to that because i've never drank like my dad in my life And he was at falling out my dad high functioning alcoholic shirk wait till the second year off work and all of this but Definitely drank every day. Definitely his most irritable as five to seven before he can get the i drink right and all that stuff in. I have never drink like that. But i pay more attention to have had depression problems innings. -iety problems most of my whole life and Have been on an off medications for those. And when i'm not on them. I try to be very acutely aware of like medicating drinks and set up to you. Don't run right right so you have to kind of self self police yourself because yeah i yeah. I have anxiety issues myself and i have. I don't know if i you know i. I really thought about it a lot. But i don't think that what i've had is depression. I think it's more. It's a higher level of anxiety that manifest itself in dread. so like. i'm not. I'm not like i can't get out of bed guy you know i don. I don't get no no probably of only very short periods of my life that were always attached to an actual thing that happened like a death. Sure yes appropriate behavior for until you have to put the pants on meter no but you know depression anxiety and dread and catastrophic thinking. Oh yeah and all that that is. I've been told i don't know like a type of depression depending on like how really fast in your life. So yes i'm with you. There's not there hasn't been a lot of like. And if i have a job i will. I don't think it's a good has never been. Yeah but that's a little bit of the problem as soon as stuff is still like right right Don't take that stuff to work. Yeah right that's why. I am painting and trying to write and You're writing sculpt. Yeah yeah great you writing a lot now now not fucking writing anything like it's just like there's like this weird thing where like when wind passed away. I mean it's been almost four months. Where like kind of now. I know i know but it shattered everything but the thing is like there's party. I keep a journal about this and i'm like i can't do it and then i was like sort of wondering like shy pressure myself to right and i'm like don't do fucking anything dude. Just fucking do it if he attitude to deal so i haven't really been because there's no standup really i'm not really making notes compulsively but it's starting to come back a little bit in terms of like You're having a widow freedom from the daily you know quicksand of grief but like but like i'm starting to be okay. Yeah and maybe. I'll start writing. What are you writing on trying to write a script. Good yeah yeah. I'm i'm so happy. Because i am surrounded by so many brilliant writers in my life that i get very nauseous trying to sell like writing script. i've been asked to help people with scripts and and take a look at like karaoke voice or repeated beats and a lot of that stuff for a really long time. 'cause i In theater i was doing almost all new play development or you work with the writer to flesh out the play or draft and so yeah. And so i really really love writers and i really loved the relationship of Interpreting their words and figuring out how to how to highlight their voice. Instead of mike voice interesting so that is kind of making me. Think i wrote a short that i co directed that was part of a trilogy. That was all about in praise of quitting that. I think people should embrace quitting things more in. Yeah i'm trying to write another one And i'm also trying to write down just some essays slick short essays It's good to see you know what's interesting about writing. Which i 'cause i hate writing i fucking hate it Yeah and i've written books hate it But the one thing i know about it is that when you get going you will learn things about yourself Like you will put things together differently than you would have thought you like. There is an element of discovery to even writing about like an essay or about yourself and then more of a sudden it's like. Wow that's exactly. What i what it is but i never knew it that we know there is. I like that part of it but it takes too long to get there. Can't fucking deal. Were you writing more pros before you started writing stand up. Were you reading your standup act. I i usually work through most of my stuff. Onstage i to improvisation and then kind of it becomes something over time hammered. I write outlines ideas. I write like a lot of different one line things. That aren't necessarily standup poetic things. Little things like yeah right. I used to write that kind of stuff constantly. But it's just an active brain and eventually things that would make it in would just make it in over. Repetition was not always feel like what you were writing when you started writing. We did it immediately. Feel like oh i think i have i think value added or did i mean did did it feel like i think. This is a niche. Where where i can contribute this. This is what it is worthwhile for me to write. No i always think that like this is like this is a waste of time. No one's going to read this. There's no real money in it and it will change nothing okay. Do one of those commencement speeches. That was beautiful. i have done. I did that this podcast festival where. I was a keynote speaker and it was such. It was all a racket and once. I realized that it was a festival. Put together by old radio hacks who are just trying to sell people on an entrepreneurial fucking yellow teaching weekend to bilk people at a money to think they that podcast is some great business idea. I got up in front of all these people i said. Look man. it's probably not gonna work out so it's very hard to get people to listen to your thing like it was hilarious so anyways so the times were supposed to mentor or coach. Actors young actors actor wannabes. Whatever the majority of the time. Or even if i just coach a single person like an audition which from time to time the majority of the time someone was asking something about the business they actually want to know how to get a tv show How to work with. Vincent going to peter gotta before this it. Was you know how to get in a sitcom and they and i know this is They want they want. What are the steps. Do you ever albie. They want to be famous. And even if it's not about fang their idea of success is extremely narrow definition of it 'cause people in here even when people say phrases like When you made it or is this the big thing that you like when you made it well. I mean the first time. I did a play at Dac a small theater in adams. Morgan which was my first theater. Production that had zero to do with college. It was not an academic saying it was not a teacher making phone call. I showed up into my backpack. And i read lines got apart five dollars. No pay for rehearsal five dollars a show as a non-equity performance and multiple times. We could not get on. It wasn't equity house. But i was. I was a nonunion performer performing there. And there's a equity rule that if there are more people on stage than in the audience the cast can elect to not go on to not do the play. It was only a two hander and we still had to have that vote many nights and i not well. It was very very early on in my career. I perform my heart out for solo people all the time. And i bring all that up to say like to me. That was that was that was making it And even if there hadn't been a play to decide that. I want to not go to the party that everyone's going to because i love reading and re reading and rereading and re reading a script and a scene and breaking down and trying to figure out why this person behaves the way they do and everything that everything that's going on internally while the external is happening is endlessly fascinating to me and still is and i tried to tell these actors that is actually the majority of what being an actress writer. It's book signings. Even if you're wildly famous you're mostly alone writing right right and i love to be on set. And i'm i'm i couldn't be more grateful for the best part of my career in some of the best people i've ever met working with right now but i still spend ninety percent of the time alone reading and memorizing and trying to figure out the tnt different version of that line how to say it and then and then as you well know how to. Then let all of that homework. Go and just be present when you got to somehow. Just write you there there. You love the craft right. So i can withstand up. There was no choice in my mind or in my heart. As to what i was gonna do and add nothing to do with making a living really a you know there was like doubt this was my this shows me to. This is how i was chosen to do so. I don't know what shows me. But but there is a generation of people. And i guess there always has been that just think like well i just need to apply my ambition to this set of steps that will enable me to be a success monetarily and fame wise. So help me with my ambition. Please right yeah and creativity. That's not passion. That's not. It's just there and i see it all the time and you know some people are just sort of like they. Some people are better at hiding it than others. And there's nothing wrong with ambition but if that's all that driving you it's a little disconcerting. I think so now are you. Do you feel like you're ambitious enough. No see i don't. I don't either but i'm good. I i just want to make a living and have health insurance. I'm you know. I just you know and like i it. It happened so late in the game for me. Like i'm happy that i can save some money. I've health insurance for what it's worth until the health insurance that we have goes broke because no one's working and You know like in you know. I can kind of eat at any restaurant that i want to win. There's places to eat so that's good. You know yeah. I mean i. I wasn't like i'm not a guy sort. I need more need to win. I need another house and his day job. And how long i mean. That's my one thousand. Nine hundred eighty eight mike. Yeah mine's nine eighty four but there were some lean fucking times man. I mean. I didn't have a day job but wasn't living large. Yeah no believe me. Every dislike when i first got a sitcom i came out here and abc. You make good money. but i also had spent. I had no savings and was broke by the time. Ain't got here. So i wanted to save it all number one. 'cause early stories that like what if the pilot doesn't get picked up. Don't be that person that goes and buys a car right That happens so many times so did i. it's a real story And i also You know its version of the impostor syndrome but it's actually more catastrophic thinking that we're talking about. There's always a part of me that thinks any monday. You might be in a cardboard box. This might all up in smoke And so it's about constantly saving money but in reality it really is. Because i don't want i had some lean times too and i was like. Oh yeah. I don't want to wait tables and god love anybody that can do that. But i'm purposely saving every penny and belaboring whether i should get new shoes at marshall's because the old ones are fine because i don't want to have to take a day job not because i'm above it but because i want to spend that time always constantly towards the next acting job and the next creative thing we i've got the same brain guy. It takes me a lot to spend money. But like i'm getting a little better at it because like the world is ending. So i'm like i'm trying 'cause i'm kind of like i think it's weird that i don't own anything like your romantic idea. I didn't have credit cards for a really long time. Because i watched people in debt come on college and my dad's life insurance is what my dad didn't leave me money. He didn't have money in an Near the i'm not saying they're poor but there was no like here's a bunch of money. Now take care of yourself. So i used his life insurance policy to pay for my college in cash and was done that no so no student loans or any of that. Men reach yeah. I mean huge massive gift. I would have rather had him. But i think he'd be happy that that's what i spent on And so i'm coming on. 'cause i'm not having any debt i keep watching all these people sink if i had to actually figure out how to have three jaw at the time to day jobs and rehearsing theater at night and then i had massive debt. my head would explode in millions of people are dealing with that So i was like. I'm not gonna have any credit cards. I'm never gonna owe anybody. If i can't afford the thing right now i don't get it and that's the way i lived all the way to and i constantly sublet apartments and i finally got to a place where i was the sole renter and had to sign paperwork. And i remember it was dupont circle in dc. And the guys for this like hovel little Studio efficiency apartment and he said why have to run your Run run a credit check. And i said oh go ahead. I couldn't wait. I thought it was gonna be like go off and they'd be like this is literally only person in the world who doesn't know a single sent to anyone not lunch money from sixth grade like nothing. I'm and now he comes back and like i can't rent to you you have no you have no credit. Go well no. I don't have any debt. You have no credit i. I'm embarrassed to say. I think i was. I think i was twenty eight twenty eight years old. He gets you. That's the fucking game is all shit. You're supposed to carry it a little bit of debt just to show that you can pay off things. The superintendents gentlemen. Who had no time for me and also had to like the janitor in this apartment building sat me down on the curb in august in dc and explained credit into me and said you've got to get a credit card and you gotta you just don't pay off like two dollars a month just always leave dislike slight running balance until you have credit and then just out of his heart rented me parked because i had i had nowhere to go. Oh that's nice so he gets so going back there so you you you were going to be a painter but then at some point you decided acting. was it yuban albuquerque. Right i did so did you have. And this isn't a facetious question. John or a mocking question did. Did you have any outlets where you're like. Oh that's a viable career to be a stand up comedian or to act. I didn't have anything like that anywhere near me. No i didn't think about that stuff. I dislike at some point because i was somewhat entitled in my heroes. Were all you know intellectuals and artists and everything else. I just knew that i wanted to be you know educated. I did photography for a while. And i you know i kinda wanted to act in college but no i never saw any. Making money was not part of my big plan. For some reason. I just wanted to be educated. You know. I just wanted to like. I just wanted there to be salons with gertrude. Stein parker that would be good. Young people's dining rooms read and do the whole thing. I i just wanted to be an arts and Grew up with Souther earners as parents. That were really. Great storytellers my dad. If he tells you that he got stuck in traffic on the way to seven eleven or my mom wants to tell you about picking up eggs. It's a great. They could win the moss. They should they. My mom should try. And so i was just used to that like being taken on a journey and and and I remember my dad very long. Thin lanky guy and He would very slowly shift his way left or right and cross your legs and switch the other one to the other side and that was this pause and it was literally about drama in the seven eleven parking lot you and then be like a big shifts and it nothing. Nothing happened but didn't matter was riveted. It's a good building device on it out right My sister hysterical. So my dad did. As far as i can tell. I mean there's just no way around it. My agrees had to have had massive undiagnosed depression. And he had this job where he couldn't tell people including us in any close friends mostly what he was doing at any given time and never talked about vietnam. i know. He said that he is hearing was bad in one ear because of someone trying to shoot him in the head and the gunshot was so close that it damaged his hearing maybe. Ps ptsd. he could have. I don't know there was also stuff where i mean. His main job was finding out that one of our own including in his own office had turned turned the other side. And we're spying for the other side. So i can't imagine you could maintain friends. He was very. He's very well liked what he was extremely private. Very funny. very ri- super dry sense of humor that to this day love when people are good at that. Like the kind of thing where you don't even care if the person ever gets that you're kidding like he'd drive home snickering knowing that you did not get. It's super dry. And what he would do when we come home. Sometimes after doing we don't know wipe for a couple of days is yeah definitely drink bourbon. But he will go to his what was supposed to be his office but it was not filled with a bunch of light government stuff. That was all on base where you had that stuff. It was filled with supplies. His his mom was An expert drawer and oil painter and taught it And he painted and drew with her and that is what he did to self soothe to get his feelings out and it was all escapist art it was all very americana Wild west staff pieces from when he was in vietnam they wouldn't let him take his sketchbooks and everything because it was extra baggage that's not necessary so he stuffed charcoal in any pockets of any of the uniforms and little charcoal nibs and Then when stuff when there were bombs and stuff in the street he would take the pieces of cardboard and paper that would go flying and drew from memory. The cowboys on horses like very like old west americana stuff and then. He framed them in these irregular shapes. He kept them that way. And so i grew up watching him and that was a very normal thing to do. When i were being out of control we were told to go. Draw all the time and so we did. And then he would. Correct are drawings Shaded by like he would do like anatomical shading on my holly hollyhocks coloring books. My sister and i were always horrified. Really made her look older weird but it was extremely normal. And i and he also he and my mother expected my sister night to be. Well spoken articulate. Add when some very powerful people. I'm sure Their intellectual people were coming over. Not as much like you're It wasn't like artists and musicians. Were coming over. The rumour government people. But they're very worldly and having these very adult conversations and my sister and i were always expected to participate and As my fiance sets his dad used to say that they needed yes. It's going to be interesting but you need to be interested just as much. And this whole swirl of things made me think oh it would it be in the arts. I need to be an artist. I don't want to be able to discuss ideas and then go into my studio and paint now. Loves painting. And i was good enough at it that i started getting sent to a gifted school for painting after regular school from a pretty young age and went all the way up going to college and the whole time i was obsessed with. Tv and movies I fully on that. I was raised by the television. Snuck the television got restriction for watching television. Nick at night at the time was old. Old sitcoms children's so i'd watch old black and white stuff and Later it was the art house. Movie theaters watching french films and i wanted to. I was like oh. That's that's actually how. I want to tell stories. It's dat but american at the time and films everybody either seem to already have parents are in the business or they live in hollywood or they look like models. There was just not a lot of room. And i didn't. I was at the time quite chunky and It just seemed i. I felt sure that would be laughed at in my face if i said i think it'll be an actor so i went to school and i was gonna major in painting and i was majoring painting and you had to take an elective. That was not in your chosen major. Sto there was an acting class than i took it and Lenny roebuck was my teacher. And i'm very very lucky that That first class was not a feel-good Emotional non disciplined kind of class. It was it was practical aesthetic handbook. Which is the atlantic theaters Craft and and and techniques in the script on the script yes and objectives motivations tactics super objective the given circumstance. All of these things and to me. I was in love instantly because i thought oh the taking away it being just like an ethereal magic thing that you may or may not possess wasn't so some people that's like d romanticizing and as an art form to me. It made it an art form. I was like oh. I get that. I know how to sit. Down and work is a practical system tools. Yes right yes the fact that you and it was so relieving to me coming from a lot of chaos in my house and it wasn't just my dad. Liked it a lot of stuff going on Surrounding my sister. And i and almost was like psychiatric. Louis really big gift to me to start actually thinking about why people behave the way they behave and what's going on internally even though they're saying something else. We had people with anger issues around us. We had of course the alcoholic. That's not making sense. Sometimes in other times not remembering what. They said and other times apologizing for what they said. I had a lot of southern relatives. That smile to their teeth. But they stab you in the back in a heartbeat. But it's all very very polite and so it was my sister. And i spent a lot of trying to figure out what the hell anybody actually believe mint at all times and still the acting thing i was just like oh that is how you make a character. Feel human that even when you want when you're watching somebody. And they have decided some internal choices and some internal motivations even the ones that you'll never see that are not script related to rob objective of. They will come alive more real to you. There's something you will feel tactical about it. It's like that's that's more real and so it was that and then i tell them that i just couldn't. There was no chance. I would do anything else i didn't i didn't say did not have no idea if i could make a living on it but it didn't matter and so after college you just started doing the small theater stuff. I started getting involved with professional tutors before i even left college. I noticed a lot of kids you know. And it's like you gotta take you take the the hand you're dealt of course. I wasn't looking for the silver lining the time but i look back and i think how i was really kinda own in college And paying all my bills myself and trying to figure out everything and that made me keenly aware that there are a lot of kids there who thought they'd wait till they got out of college to cut a figure it out and then right. Maybe you'll go intern and there and there seemed to be this gap between academic and professional and And because my school had a lot of adjunct teachers we had almost all professional pre professional painter teaching painting who had a show that night at at a gallery and professional actors. Who were working this weekend in play. And they didn't have a lot of time to coddle anybody. It was very matter of fact a lot of a lot of speeches. Like you gave to the podcast. People like listen. You'll probably never make it but here's how you can actually learn how to act. I don't give a shit if you figure out how to make a career out of it and so they. I pushed myself to volunteer to read Stage directions for new plays down Going taking the metro into washington. Dc where there's some. I think the best theater in the world like the most amazing theater happening there and i would volunteer read stage directions in a basement for a new play or volunteered volunteered. Backstage props food crops anything just to be around people professional doing it so by the time i was dishing. It was a much smoother transition because people are denuding while yahoos. Fa- i talked to someone who's mom used to run a theatre jason's zimmerman's mom theater. She ran though in dc but it feels like it was. I bet you and she ran studio theatre there you go. How'd that i had a class with her. How interesting what were you talking to jason about. Well he's the comedy critic for the new york times get out. I didn't know that. Yeah i never. I mean i've read articles by. But i never even connected that like that joyous this funny. I acted in her theater. Yeah so it was all about theater and that was the thing and you had no idea how you were going to get out here or do that. I didn't really care. I mean i. I wanted to do because i. I found the with acting watching things on camera. I knew that. I wanted to try that as well but it was. Not like theater was a stepping stone to get to that I love them both equally a lot of the place that i was doing especially the ones that were new play development would then go to new york and then i loved dc theater as you play. It's sometimes take really big risks doing the dc opening because it matters in the washington post matters and they're very savvy theater audiences there if you fail your career isn't over like it is if the new york times says your socks So they would try a lot of stuff and it was really cool and then those plays are transferred to new york. And sometimes they transfer and i wanted to go and they didn't a lot the theaters. They're in now they have to. They have to sell tickets so they either do. New york juilliard people or they do new york named people say i started traveling up in addition and little by little ended up. Just saying you know what. I'm just gonna i'm going to move up there for a beat to try some theater there and i did and got cast in a couple of things and then i was doing a play for playwrights horizons when i auditioned on videotape for a sitcom that brought me here to la and people were saying all the time. You know if i if you ever want to start tv you have to go out to file for pilot season. But i'm on the way to thin-skinned did you do it. Yeah they used to send me out for pilot season but it was a joke. It was just a fucking joke. I mean i've had. Tv deals over my career. But you know what i mean but the the goal for the standup really was like you want to get a show. You want to get a deal and hook up with a writer who will create a show around you that was always the big thing because the the models were like roseanne. Ray brett butler You know that was the model. You your comedic persona was so honed that you know it was just a no brainer to make you the center of a show and i don't know why at that age. I ever thought that i would be that. I mean i did one on. Ifc no one watched but but it was a good show for four seasons but it was almost a lot of what i've done lately in my life is just sort of like y always wanted to do this and now i can't so i'm just going to do it to check it off the list. I don't give a fuck but let's let's get it done. Yeah well that's pretty amazing that you can. No no and i was able to do it on my terms and everything like everything worked out good. I'm good but like for you. Like i would go out there but it would just be like i didn't know what i was doing. I didn't understand how show business worked. You know like you know. I did not. I did not were you when you came out here. Thirty two planning like twenty two and most things. I look younger so you were doing theater for like a decade before you. Oh yeah like twelve twelve years before you even came out here and i am thankful for it. I i firmly understood what i was doing. And what i loved about what i was doing and so yeah i wanted to do television and films but it wasn't because i thought that's what i'll finally make me think that i That i love this or that. I'm any good at us. I mean i'm still evolving. And you know. I always think like shame. Shame on you. If you don't get better with every single scene you do but But i knew at the time. I was like well. I know i know what. I'm doing enough that i will show people this snapshot of a character that i came up with a neither. I fit the way they're telling the story or or i don't now that doesn't mean to say that i didn't go in. Have my heart broken a couple of times. Where i was like they are wrong. I definitely was the right person to tell the story and a lot of people. I have a way it goes back to what i told you that. I saw him when i was studying acting. And that's to have an internal life to have a fully. And i've done sitcoms that i'm totally proud of sitcom i'm get a bad rap and they shouldn't Especially multi camps as far as like the quality of acting or whatever and it's ones you ask anybody. What their favorite sitcom hasn't they're gonna tell you sign that al cheers all in the family all these ones that are actual multi counts. It's just about how smartly they're rittenhouse. Smartly people who favorite sitcom from when you were growing up drying up. Maude or i've modeled two characters life completely after be arthur and i'm not sad Which ones The my first one. I heard there is so much. Be arthur in that. It's like be arthur in a trapped in a punk naysayer saying but hold little sister. That's what i was playing. Well that's because there was an aggravated jewish man trapped and be arthur. Exactly her timing. Anything seat did or madeline kahn. Or gilda radner dead. That's that's i gotta learn hundred that great timing great comedic timing. Yeah so great. And so i they. I was working in brooklyn living working in brooklyn at the time. Doing a play. And i did this videotape and like i said a lot of people didn't want much to do with my acting because even though i started chunky and crewcut shaved black hair by that time i was had long blond hair was thinner and fit and that shouldn't matter but i started getting called in for parts that were Girlfriends that do nothing. And i would en- would make up whole lives for them like well. Clearly there's a reason why you're standing here quietly so i'll be a crack at it or whatever like i like have at the end. It wasn't about. I promise you. I wasn't trying to steal the scene. I just wanted to be active in the scene and People did not care for that a lot and then all of a sudden. I got this call about this part and i had made up this character. Sharee that i loved would've done in my driveway for no one would would have done it on the subway and they my agent called instead they wanna They want you to come out. L. la to screen tests for us I was really. that's amazing. And she said listen. The only so. I just need to tell you something and it's not going to be funding here. But they're telling me just going to tell you i said okay. And she's a it's it's they kind of need in the studio network tests. They kind of need to have some people for people to say no to so that they look so that the network feels like they chose the person themselves. So there's basically some filler around them but you have to be good. They don't want to embarrass themselves. But there's basically no way you can get this job. The network wants a star because it was definitely it was like the meghan mullaly part of the part like all the zingers like so they wanna they wanna get a big name and they've got some people on hold people interested and then also. The so-and-so has a friend that he wants to do and it went on and on okay since she was like. But you'll be in front of lake asking people and abc people in You've never been to la all of these. Things are great. I was like yeah. And then i asked if we had to stay overnight. I said even. If i don't even if i don't move over doing it to stay overnight and the reason was because everyone at the time was watching sopranos and i didn't have renewable. I just wanted to know. She's like yeah. I was like okay salon. There'd be cable in the hotel. Yeah let's do it And a man and they brought me in and they flew in it. Like i want to say i got it like ten o'clock at night. The studio tasks was supposed to be the next day at nine. Put me up but the sheridan over in city wok. Yeah yeah no one. Yeah i remember waking up around five. I didn't even get very nervous. And i was like okay. I got i got gotta get some sleep. Two o'clock in the morning to thirty in the morning. And i'm trying to make myself go to sleep and i thought okay. Okay i'll i'll i'll just and i was still in my clothes trying to conduct down And i thought well. I'll just even though i was told i couldn't get the job. I was still very nervous. I thought everyone would see me as not belonging which is right. Now you'll everywhere. And so i was like i'll just get up in the morning. I'll take a shower and overview and Set you know so. I set my alarm and then around five like a little after five. The hotel phone was ringing. And the woman said Maybe it was five thirty. She said you're cab is waiting downstairs and i said okay. Well okay. that's great. I have like three and a half hour still right. This woman starts yelling behind her. I forgot to put the facts. Door would sway what they had something where they needed to fast tra- activists so they made the network test that was supposed to be a day later. The nine and it meant the studio tests now had to be at seven which meant the work through with the writer had to be at sex so they needed to make an cab now and i'm in my co like three hours of sleep deep. Trench mark sheet marks on my face. Which apparently are on. Cameron the audition because marco pendant told me that he has tape of it And i am greasy And haven't eaten and trying to wake. I calm agents like this is not feared. Who's like okay. She finds out. They're basically like lex. Sorry i mean she. She was kind of the filler. Anyway like we can't change the city of network test for her on some agents said. I'm so sorry but what you want to do. And i said well. How much time can they give me. She said you gotta be downstairs and ten minutes so i decided i brush my teeth. That's all i got. I was like you can't take a shower ready at that point. It'll be worse. Just look like this instead I was like. I'm just going to brush my teeth and try to be calm and i'm just gonna go to this little part and there's nothing i can do about it and i went and i was so tired and so hungry and so not understanding. What a studio test network test was. I just didn't understand the process in a room in front of thirty people. No no idea. As a matter of fact. I and i now know that this isn't normal. They told us right than there. They had to go so fast from studio network that they told us rate in the hallway. Like you can stay. You're going you stay ugo ugo and and so so. I ruined swedish. Pretty bad so i and and they were by the way that the people there were so nice. I don't think it was. Abc's fault they think was timing or something went wrong or whatever. So i kept asking. Apparently i barely remember the chris chris henchi and marco peanut story it was credentials. Sitcom based around his real life of him dating brooke shields And teri polo with playing the like famous celebrity the shields part and Apparently kept asking people when we would be allowed to eat so hungry and falling asleep and were like I'm not sure. I bet you just made it to the network test is like that's so great. Do they have food there. They did not understand at all. And i realize like wow there was like twenty people in another four okay and then we were in the holding room and then they told us to go in this other room they said. Can you go in that room and the room was the abc testing one. Where it's a theater but you're entering from like the back of the house and you're down the stairs and where people just filed it. But i didn't know that i'm going to stage. I thought like oh the next room. We now wait in his this theater like set in the but they had a tape ball setup which i guess the networks like breakfast it was like bagels and locks and a bunch of stuff so i just went to the table and started making. Yeah i was literally supposed to be the person who comes in and goes straight to the stage. So i started making like vega on some cream cheese. That the an kelly. Abc casting last name so nice. She's sitting right there right next to me in the aisle and i just remember her whispering and she goes for you. You're supposed to be on. Stage was a kelly. Ely was it like. Yeah when i go. What and she goes at. That's to be on the stanford i said can i. Can i keep this. And i like my bagel on the edge on a little plate and i remember thinking like i'm getting it on the way. Fuck them out. I don't fucking care what anybody says. And i go down and i still like. It's the same sitting. it didn't understand the business. I did give a shit. There's no way. I could say. I don't give a shit. I just didn't know the game right. And it started to read. And i realize i looked up and i realized like oh shit. There's like thirty people in here with the house lights up and it made me very nervous. And i was like i did not come all the way to not do this little portrait that i like and i don't care if you like it but i like it and i'm going to do the one i want to do so i stopped and go. Whoa that was weird. I got weird there. We gotta start it over. Everyone's like when i was like. Yeah hang on. And i just like sat down and i went again and i did and i laughed and went back to my hotel room in about a half an hour later. It was very fast. My agent called and said she's like crying. She was like what what happened. I was like why it was like. I know eight the bagel on stage. And like she goes. No they're all calling and saying like the nerves of steel. Nothing affects her. She blew everyone away and she got the job show got picked up and they flew me. They're like a month later. I didn't know anybody. I said the oakwoods the oakwood apartments. That's a great story and that started you rolling but like yeah but it looks like when i look at the resume with stuff you did. I mean after you did. I'm with her. The and that was nice. You got your health insurance. Get your cards. You got your marshall shoes you get your money but like and then like you were just kind of like kicking around doing way things here. And they're right. I actually that a lot of i did a lot of pilots that weren't picked up. And some of the things i was working consistently there was wanna say the following over the following ten years you know. A couple of them went for a while franklin bash. I did for a long time. Whitney did that. There was a lot. Yeah there was a lot of pilots. I mean some were just heartbreakers. I did Mitch hurwitz in christopher guest's The thick of it which was the original american interpretation of in the loop that later became veep right and thank god. It did because julia. Louis dreyfus genius and i'm so happy that all of that happened but But at the time that was a heartbreaker for. That's where i i worked with michael mckean. It was christopher gas in all his people And me. And i felt like i was like a make a wish. Foundation kid couldn't believe. Wow that's great so you know it's interesting looking at all the stuff you have done. I forget that people do those things that you get you. Shoot a bunch of stuff. That doesn't just doesn't go pilots now but you get paid. No i didn't do i. I you know. I was You ideals over time to create shows for me with writers and none of them ever even made it to pilot over the decades. That i was doing that kind of stuff. He wants to create would you. Would you create work for someone else. Nah nah nah. I didn't know i. I did my thing. And i was never really in the market to be a writer. But but i did have several sort of deals in development deals in. I worked with writers over the course of my life before we did maranon. I've seen i probably generated for five pilot scripts for me. That didn't go with you. Know different networks. So i was around but not as an actor was always like your comic. You know what's your idea for you. What's your persona going to be doing. What are you going to be doing this show and be like all right so here it is. He's a chef. So do the performance like we love it. Let's give him a deal and have them meet some of the writers and lets you a script and then what do you owe them for the deal. The script and like five ary rights. Or you know usually again like you do the script and then once they decide whether it's to go it's not it's done. How many of them did you actually shoot. None none zero so but you do all this stuff and then how does how does saul happen. i got as a sitcom actress and i was very aware with an bash in that stuff every all the pilots. That didn't go to a were. All sitcoms and franklin bash was a one hour but still it was a comedy and i. I was thrilled. I had a ton of friends that weren't getting called for anything. And i was consistently called in for stuff so i i knew i knew that a lot of gratitude for that but i was also very confused because that was not a thing in theater. You did not say. Somebody's a comedic or dramatic actress. Sometimes people split up. Who's classical and who's contemporary sometimes unfairly but had not really seen people split comedy and drama except to the degree. And i don't know the science behind the yes there. I didn't know any comedic actor who couldn't do drama. But i did know some dramatic actors. Who could not do comedy right. Doesn't always go both ways But i just wasn't prepared for. I would read a dramatic script. Or here's something that was going to be on knew that i was right for it and they wouldn't see me. Sometimes they would see me. Get to a call back stage in the producer discussed nervous. Because they'd seen me in a sitcom common. There's like no. No no no no. We need like dramatic actress But the whole time there is a number of casting directors Sharon bialy sherry thomasson russell. Scott among those that do not see actors that way and they I owe them a lot of gratitude. It because they they have seen a body of my work. That's larger than has actually ever been on screen big right called me in for tons of stuff that i never got I don't think i actually booked anything for sharon ballet sherry thomas in the ten years. I auditioned for them before. Saban high years before. I saw And i was just like they're clearly going to stop calling me in. And they did not and they would call me. And i used parts and lake deep. Dark monologue occur difficult challenging indie role any like and then abroad and all of that. Yeah they would And so by the time i adjusted for saul better call saul did a wide casting net. It was not just calling people thankfully you know if they had just done some offer only thing for five actresses i would have never met them so I went and i addition and they were able to talk to the computer about a decade of a body of work of mine that no one else had seen. And how did this. And how i did that. And how i adapt this and this that and the other and It really like it. I still get goose. Meant so much to me. Not just because it is part of how i got this part. It is because all those auditions i prepared for that. I didn't have a chance of how chances of getting i still. I still went in with my a game. Because i like to and because they liked the character that i made up and you think they're just going out to the ether and they don't matter but collectively collectively they do and they did. It's great. it's a good story. I mean and and working with bob. I've known bob you know since we were. You know i've known bob for years like probably thirty to thirty three years. You know. and he's always been a collaborative worker. Yes and you know. And i knew him before he was like a serious actor. Like i've watched him sort of evolve into this acting and i imagine you have as well over the arc of the show. He's actually gotten better as time goes on. It's sort of fascinating. Because then i think part of that is the writers. They're seeing like there's nothing he can't do so the keep giving them more and then he challenges himself and he rises above that challenge. You know what. I mean to keep giving it more and more layers. Because he can do it. He's very hard on so very very very very our first season. He and i know he wouldn't mind me. Say he would say all the time lake. Because i would ask we'd have seasons together and say we would rehearse we were ad nauseam on and i would talked about this the other like in the scene like try it that way or that way he would constantly say like. You're the you're a real actor. You tell me like so are you and i i if you ask him how he breaks down. It's exactly like mine but yeah you're right. He's very hard on himself and in his head. Has this idea of like. I'm a sketch comedy. Yeah whatever I don't think he feels that way now but he has yeah. He learned on the job. Yeah yeah he's you. You know very well he's got a self deprecating side for sir right and i think that the relationship and the sort of depth of it over time between you guys on the show has been really kind of amazing. 'cause like there's this weird tension to it where you know as you learn more about kim wexler and her sort of like Kind of weird side the not self sabotaging but the sort of dangerous seeking pushing you know that you you start to understand how they fit together but you don't really know you know what she comes from you sort of know what he comes from so you must have put together some inner life. For that character i did. I did from the very beginning even when i was like. Oh i don't know if. I'm going to be dead in the next episode. Did that every episode season one. I mean literally. And patrick fabian. And i both were just flip and then we text each other. I'm not dead. And so everything was everything was a gift. But yeah they're so smart at writing and they hired me and they know the way they knew how i was going to approach it so when when the pilot had me having two lines i say we got it. Brenda or something to the receptionist when he breaks in the You will atone speech. And then there's the the garage smoking scene and we share one sentence he says but you just and i say you know you know i can't And then it says she fixes the trash can that he kicked without looking which i thought was very important i was like oh he does this a lot. And she always cleans up after him But you know from the very beginning. Yeah i put together a whole back story. I didn't wanna have myself in too tightly. Because i wanted to be able to take in information but there had to be a reason all of her physicality for me came from wow. She's very specific about when she speaks. And what she says. And i don't think it's a position of weakness. I think it's a position of power. So if you're somebody. Who is that specific. I didn't have contractions in the first blake eight episodes. And there's a part of me that wanted to ask you. Don't mind if i say wanna instead of want to or ghana. Right and i was like. Now let's see if maybe this'll unlocked something and it did. I was like this person is so controlled. What she wants you to see. And what she doesn't want you to see that maybe she also doesn't really Let people see what she's thinking on her face maybe she's also extremely still in her body which is hundred and eighty degrees opposite of me. I never win at poker. And i'm an an utter spas and so that was fun and that was cool to try to figure out how tight i could get a fill. Those starts to constantly have a reason why she's not speaking A lot of times. It's because she's waiting for people in the room to hang themselves their own words just like kept going down that road and and the relationship with jimmy made sense to me. They're both outsiders. They are both misanthrope. Sent away and still very awkward And they both put on masks. His is a very flamboyant clownish mask and hers. Is this armor. The suit curled ponytail. But they have no friends right like only honest with each other right but they. But they have this weird vulnerability with each other to that that that has to be unpacked every time that it's going to be expressed almost. Yeah exactly the most frustrating thing about this pandemic outside of the world possibly ending is that you know we have to have to wait so long for like you know at the end of last season we thought you were a goner. And you weren't. Yeah my now. i don't know if i was either. Although i was like well they would tell me. Events have always said they would come back to come but now it's like setup for coli. Fuck now what's going to happen. I don't know. I don't know i don't know they're in the writers for my think they've broken episode fi. I wanna say oh well. I just interviewed Giancarlo esposito interesting man isn't he. Yeah he is great. I just wish there wasn't this fucking plague. Because i was just out there i drove to toss could have probably had lunch with them and just been like kinda hung out but like i can't like you don't wanna ask anybody to weird and i sit down. Yeah well maybe we'll maybe we'll get through. Maybe we'll all be okay. Just be thankful you're painting and you the great thing about you paintings that you know how to paint so it must be nice. Do you know what i mean is it is nice. It's nice to have something like that. Where like. I'm gonna learn how to paint during this like i play guitar and i played okay and i haven't you know when i'm sitting around. I can do it. So it's nice to have a skill that's creative and meditative. The you actually know how to do so you can get some pleasure out of it. Yes i already great. You can just of meditate. It was great talking to you. Finally you too. I hope. I hope we do it in in person when they soon. Yeah i'm i'm in like some day when we don't have to wear masks exactly but thank you for having me on all right. Take it easy. Okay ratio watch better. Call saul on. Amc dot com or the amc app. What a lovely lady. And don't forget if you want to do more for your cat gives them. Delectable treats the best tasting wet treats the cat series. we can't get enough of they come in a variety of textures and flavors. And your cat will lick the bowl clean every time. Treat them the best. With delectable zwickel treats f- find electricals online chewy amazon or shop at your local walmart and other stores that sell cat treats got damaged in the to the world around. My beltline can peanut butter. Good though it's healthy right play this itar now. Play it huh. Berlin Film our lives monkey fonda. Miss you cats.

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Better Call Saul, The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, Patrick Gallo

Cinephile: The Adnan Virk Movie Podcast

1:07:02 hr | 10 months ago

Better Call Saul, The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, Patrick Gallo

"The new season proves better call Saul remains one of the finest shows on television with visually ambitious. Storytelling used to depict complex characters headed for a tragic that's arrogance of NPR Better Call Saul is one of the shows. Were talking about this time here in the file again and more TV slanted version here of cinna files right now. Everybody's Self Florentine everybody's safe and at home right now. Also we talk with the Marvelous Mrs Mazel season three or six episodes in a better call. Saul watching that in real time but was able to binge-watch Marvelous Mrs Mazel and I'll have a review of that coming up also. I'm not exaggerating here. This is one of the best. Guess we've ever had of the show. Patrick Gallo who is in my favorite movie or the Irishman was in my favorite scene of the year. When Pacino and Stephen Graham Jimmy Hoffa and Tony pro go back and forth trying to reconcile Tony Jack. Is Patrick. Gallo the actor. Who's GonNa join me today? In Senegal. He tells them unbelievable stories about being in that scene with Al Pacino and Robert Deniro eight hours. It took them to do the scene stories. About Scorsese how he got the rule I can't undersell enough trust me. It's one of the best interviews who you'RE GONNA listen to Patrick gallow histories of the Irishman Al Pacino and Bob De Niro and so much more plausible to our Mount. Rushmore is always and total recall. The movies of Nineteen Ninety seven which is nine hundred ninety eight Academy Awards. The reason I want to do this as I talked about. Julie's gold last week and I kept thinking like how the Hell Do Peter Fonda not win best actor so I wanted to go back to that ear. Because Fonda won a litany of awards in critics groups prior to the Oscars. Ah for gyulay's Gould but didn't end up the Oscars so we're going to Redo that year of nineteen ninety seven. You may remember it because of another major name. That would be James Cameron and titanic. We'll get to that just a second but first let's do some reviews folks better call. Saul one of the best shows on TV. Isn't it in season? Five critically acclaimed show Jimmy Macgill's decision to practice laws Saul Goodman creates unexpected in profound ways of change Albuquerque's legal and illegal circles. Kim Wexler Find Yourself at a crossroads is their connection with Jimmy. Deepens wracked with guilt and regret. Mike Trout hits rock bottom. Meanwhile Nacho Varga tries to survive as gusts frings cope worn the cartel becomes a life and death chess match with the material and relentless Lalo Salamanca. This was such a big risk. I mean this was such an enormous risk of you. GotTa have a pair on you to do this Vince. Gilligan did you put together breaking bad. Which is one of the greatest dramatic shows of all time and then see you know what I want to keep going on this. I love the locale. The image that we're going to spin off with the comic relief character. Jimmy McGill and it's like well hang on a second Bob. Odenkirk is amazing on breaking bad. Because it's a small character. It's comedic doses. He comes in for five ten minutes. He's amazing he steals a scene steals the episode. But then that's it. Nobody wants to see this guy for an entire episode. Like he's a clown it's it's a one note joke. He's a huckster lawyer. He's a shyster lawyer and odenkirk plays brilliantly. Because he's such a fast talker and SMARTER THAN PEOPLE REALIZE. But he has no scruples. He has no moral upstanding. He'll will help criminals Like Walter White and Jesse and help anybody. Because he's in it for himself now. Who THE HELL WANNA watch for an entire show but Vince Gill. We got something here. And that's why Mount Rushmore is going to be the greatest spinoffs of all time. Because I think it was just so smart of them to realize that there was storytime Jimmy mcgeough whereas I like many others. I think were skeptical. Skeptical excuse me of how well it was going to work out and from the beginning it hit the right note because Jimmy McGill as I mentioned. Breaking bad is funny is an entertaining character and he still has lots of funny moments on better call. Saul but this is not a comedic. Show this dramatic show and whereas breaking bad. His character was light and funny. And twisting all around and able to circumvent all the menace. That was around him. This is a tragedy like make no mistake. This is about a guy who had integrity named Jimmy McGill who then is beaten down by life and more into a crook named Saul Goodman. And it's to Odin kirks credit that he's able to play the character with such subtlety UAW comic actors who can do drama so well and Odin ad that list of Jim Carrier Mike Myers. There's so many others Tom Hanks. Of course along the way. And that's why Odin Kirk succeeds in the show. Because he's unafraid of where the journey is taking him he knows where. Saul Goodman ends up. Because he's already played the role now. It's a matter of showing the little steps along. The Way and season five in particular has been really strong out of the gate. I thought season three and four. We get a little wayward. At times. It is slow pacing and you could kind of read this sucker up a little bit but I do appreciate that Vince. Gilligan does not waste any time visually. It's astonishing I mean you watch episode of better call saw. What's the budget on this thing? And it's just so unique the way these shoot it and they see a long lenses and that beautiful New Mexico landscape. They'll always look for unorthodox moves with which to begin industry and this is just visually speaking and the writing is always so smart. The the episodes end not on a cliffhanger but on a surprise. Note whether it's Kim and Jimmy throw a beer bottles off a balcony or the episodes just happened Monday night in which she suggests they get married after saying. Maybe they should break up and end this thing. I mean it's he knows that in an episode to keep his audience hooked for Gilligan. Assist a master storyteller. Those respects the one aspect. I do miss for those who have not seen the show and you WANNA GO BINGE. Watch it first of all you should and if you do you realize one of the best aspects of the show which I really miss a lot was Michael mckean. Dockland another comedic actor playing Jimmy's brother and he played him so well. I mean this is an older brother that Jimmy reveres and the way that McCain plays him is he's brilliant but he's also ruthless and mean spirited towards Jimmy as cold and bullying at times and contemptuous of his little brother. He does not take seriously it was not at his level. And yes there's love there because they're brothers but at the same time you know. Jimmy's affection for his older brother stronger than the brothers for his younger sibling. And amidst that emits that tough outer. Shell is heartbreaking vulnerability and mckean's characters suffers from this terrible melt mental illness and the fact. He's terrified of anything with electronics. And like you know. You've wraps himself foil paper when he goes inside the House and the way they should. I mean that character is one of the most underrated characters ever. I think at TV show Michael mckean was able to do playing Jimmy. Macgill's brother it's amazing and I remember my brother. Tony Vince Gilligan. Said that the inspiration for is my favorite which is called crumb Robert Crumb who is a famous underground cartoonist. Who have these just tormented upbringing. And it was able to mind some humor of that and put that into his art and this underground connoisseurs became a huge sensation. He's got these brothers just so demented and twisted and I guess that's were Gilligan. Found some inspiration for it. The rest of the supporting cast is also uniformly strong. Natalie mark. Mike Cameron Trout. Of course that character is so good. Jonathan banks as the actor who plays them again. You remember him from breaking bad Jim Carlos Zito who was so good on breaking bad. He's back once again. But the real find. Here's Racy Horn as Kim Wexler. I think she's flat out on the best actresses working in television right now. I could watch racy Horn do anything I think. She is so perfect in that role with that hair pulled back in that bottomless business suits and such icy reserve. I mean maybe just because I love will boost much but I swear she reminds you like Kim Novak's Vertigo. It's amazing watching her performance. Because you know she's attractive but she's also very buttoned up and very repressed and you could feel all this emotion bubbling under the surface and tried to keep it there and she loves Jimmy. She loves him more than anything but realizes that they're conscious in the better of firm that she can't keep going down this path of trying to evade the law with the smart moves eventually. It's you know when you're in trouble eventually going to catch up to you and that's what her face is actually that all the time but again she's got genuine emotion for Jimmy especially after a brother passes after his brother paths. Excuse me on the Steamer. Cheats crying the letter. I mean that's that's about as good as screen acting gets. The first season has an episode just focused on Mike and his backstrom which happened to his son that episode. Great stand alone episode. If you haven't seen it go back and watch that I've stranded of a film the War Mike going back into his former life so listen better call. Saul. It's as good as it gets and Television. Giving four maple leafs. I'm just amazed or able to pull it off and it's a must see television. Joan my opinion. I'm glad you're beating the rea- seahorn drum because after the twenty nine thousand nine hundred. Nominations came out shoes. The number one person. Everyone's saying how could you not give a nomination? Touristy Horn for better call Saul. She's the best thing on the show so I'm glad to hear that confirmation for me I agree man like it's tough to top own groupies so likeable and so in theory but I I will echo. Those sentiments racy on is the best part. Better call so. I think she could do anything I SORTA got. If I could buy stock in an actress I'd buy her. I think she's so good at playing that role. I mean it's and you're right. I took crime at this point during the season. Five for God's sakes they're only have one more season after this penultimate ear and she's never been nominated for an emmy. I mean she did our boy find Brooks podcast. Hollywood Hollywood chatter for the report. Excuse me awards chatter which you should all listen to and I remember Scott you're right. He was appalled afterwards. That racing was snubbed. As just it's It's shocking. But she's great. The show is great to check it out if you get a chance. Next show to talk was a marvelous. Mrs Mazel She's in three ages binge watched again. This is a real awards. Favourite won the Emmy Award for best Comedic show procedure one. I believe season two lost a fleabag a lemay one. Preseason to Joe will fact check me on this the Emmy history here of Marvel's Mrs Mazel but Rachel Brosnahan has won for best actress. She's amazing is I talked to find previously incentive file Al Pacino. Ball people my favorite actor to hunters. You really know much Amazon prime so they gave him a marvel species. Mazel to watch and he loves Rachel. Brosnahan like literally was saying this defy fiber as it goes like what are what are you. What what what does Al Pacino Watch? At night. He watches the marvelous. Mrs May zone is brought girl. She's Great Rachel Dad. He's just raving Rachel Bras. Dan and his upper west side apartment But she's amazing against speaking of great actresses. This should be the great actress and a foul. Not only is it ray seahorn but Rachel Bosnian. I think as gifted as comedic actress right now on television. She just beginning what I think is going to be a wonderful career because again for what that show is about. Mazel for those were unaware. Listen she is his nineteen fifties housewives. Okay she's stuck behind a life that is frustrating but then realizes her gift is in comedy and after her husband's cheating on her and wants to leave her she goes into stand up in becomes a huge hit. And would that unlikely premise? It becomes a really endearing. Show season three specifically Megyn. Suzy discovered that life onto shy as glamorous but humbling they learn a lesson about show business. Deliver forget Joel. Struggle support major pursuing his own dreams husband Abe embraces a new mission. That's Tony Shalhoub. And Rose Learns that. She has talents of her own. A couple more blurbs and WanNa read them better call song going back now. Better Call Saul from Richard Newman Ferguson of the Observer. Better Call Saul continues to be the consistently underrated best thing on Netflix. Since the start of its penultimate series if you weeks ago. It's bowling along with slow. But unstoppable momentum and Ben Travers of India wire all of these consistently astonishing formal touches combined created value outweighs. The pain yes better call Saul the double edged sword of reward and loss. But it isn't too sad to watch because you to invest it to look away. Well this isn't good blurbs. All right back to Mazel which is a completely different show. It's light it's fairly. Listen I WANNA shows you have to find some personal affection for I. Love the era of the nineteen fifties despite the virulent racism. I wish I could have been alive. At that time. I loved the songs I love. The cars love the clothes and marvelous. Mrs Maes more than anything is tremendous. I candy eight episodes Binge Watch and I just look at that and I marvel at the production of they must put so much effort and money into the meticulous nature finding all the details right literally the color of her clothes. Mrs Maes alike. It's just so bright frilly The Steady Cam. Work is amazing. I mean you talk about great directing on TV shows. Watch an episode of Marvelous Mrs Mazel and look at that steady Kayla. These are like orchestrated shots. They must do take after take. Rehearsal in many ways reminds me of a play because especially when the apartment Cambridge's swoops in and watches them as they go off and on and the dialogue. So rat. Tat TAT tickles. Neil Simon play lost in yonkers or something helped by the fact of course is New York Jews in one thousand nine fifty. But it's got that whole rhythm towards I think it's amazing and I think that rhythm that energy translates on the screen Mike Concern with it. Is I think at times. It's a little bit light much. Like candy is real. Much substance to it in the first few episodes. I think there's really not a whole lot of meat on the bone but episodes four five six seven and eight so the second half which is to say is very very strong and I think it's smart because it starts to look at commentary not only about this housewife whose become unshackled as new wave of women independent woman. I mean the husband's raising the kids. She's off on tour doing comedy but also for African Americans that character shy Baldwin the Great Sterling K. Brown who Join I love? He plays the manager for shy bald. Who is the lead singer? The constitution that maizels on Sterling K. Brown can do no wrong as well. He's awesome the show which she actually got to do more to supporting role but he's always tremendous and the rest of the cast. Alex Borst is really funny. She's on family guy believes she does the voice of Meg. She plays the manager Suzy. She's got a handful of great lines. I mean at one point. They're putting a face mask on and she goes. What is just sits in your face like a French. Or I mean she's tossing out one line up to one and I like that and of course. I haven't even mentioned yet my favorite part of this show. Tony Shalhoub one of my favorite actors. Big night when the all time classics. I've ever seen monk and then I just love Tony. Shalhoub from Green Bay Packers Fan. This season there's not a whole lot of him. That's my only criticism of this season. It's not a lot of Chalupa. His his storyline. I don't think had much meat on the bone him. The character rose Weisman is wife Merran Hanko but Chiluba if you watch the first two seasons amazing and again Joel verifies definitely one at least one. If not two EMMYS for his performances. Eight weisman definitely will make a SAG award as well so ultimately. I like the fact that now looking female empowerment but also racism and just the emptiness of Showbiz life but again back to the energy and the style. There's one episode starts the first ten minutes for ten SORTA. There's no letup there's no cut. It's just her. There's no there's cuts editing. I mean in terms of the rhythm and the movement there's no letup as far as Mazel to supplement. Her income starts doing voiceover work and her and suzy start going to all these different Places I mean. The cavs are flying around the music role in the cameras. Rolling the music automate. It's just it's like a symphony for the senses and it really is an example of just how the people are who make the Marlins Mrs Mazel. It's available on Amazon. Obviously I love the music made a ton of Louis. Prima you got Sinatra Amy Sherman Palladino and Daniel Palladino are the executive producers. Amy Sherman Palladino is the creator of it. Some reviews a little bit Tepid Matthew Gilbert the Boston Globe. It can be a fun. Diversion sweet and it's Willful. Irrelevancy and alluring jovial rhythms. That's pretty good so if the Atlantic it's frustrating because the show keeps hinting that it's edging toward more substantial fare only tobacco at the last minute I think in the first few episodes that's accurate later on. It does actually have more substance and Ben Travers of Indie wire season three could rebound and its back half the focus shift. Real problems could arise and browns begin sterling K. Brown could get that juicy arche deserves even without all that the first five episodes insured. Please die hard fans okay. Well he is in the first five. I've seen all I can tell you. It's a show which is worthy of watching end to close up Joe. I often get criticized rightfully so my shows in my Interest are so male dominant. It's nice to have a show which is a female league but you can watch with your wife or girlfriend significant other marvelous. Mrs Mazel three and a half maple leafs I dig it and just to follow up Tony Slough. He won outstanding supporting actor in a comedy series. Twenty nineteen thousand nine Emmy Awards last fall and Rachel Brosnahan one in twenty eighteen and the show in two thousand eighteen won outstanding comedy series. Gotcha the second season didn't do as well. Shalhoub won supporting actor but Bosnian did win for lead in. The show won for best series. Yep Yeah and I will also mention that Alex Bernstein one four supporting actress at the Emmys last year as well but yeah definitely the cleaned up in two thousand eighteen thousand nine hundred and they had a pretty good showing but not nearly as dominant. It's twenty eighteen. I've fleabag coming along for the ride as well. Yeah Alright One more movie before we talk about some news which is affecting all of course corner buyers in the entertainment World Bobby Walker Ben. Affleck movies called the company maintain your anniversary of the moves. I WANNA check it out. Never seen him before. And about Ben Affleck Living. The American dream great job beautiful family shiny portion the garage when corporate downsizing leaves him and Co Workers Phil Woodward Chris Cooper and gene McClary. Tommy Lee Jones jobless. The three men are forced to redefine their lives as men husbands and fathers Bobby soon finds himself enduring enthusiastic life. Coaching job building houses for his brother-in-law played by Kevin Koster which does not play these executive skill set and perhaps realization that there's more to life than chasing the bigger better deal. I mentioned the way because Tommy Right now. I think we all know we're facing a real economic crunch. Could be on the verge of another recession and this movie came out just after the great recession and focused on you know the white collar white man older losing his job and then realizing what she's supposed to do with his life and just how bloodless and how cruel the corporate world can be Caryn James of Newsday with heroin realism. The companyman captures the rob personal impact of the economic meltdown. Also student hold of the New York Times. Ben Affleck and Chris Cooper Play Characters. Who learned that in a company concerned about the bottom line? Almost everyone is expendable this movie. Maybe a little too close to home right now. I'm sure a lot of people right now. Are Feeling the economic pinch. But I'M GONNA give it two and a half maple leafs. I liked it for the cast of Affleck Jones and Cooper and Kevin Costner. Plan this real a hardworking laborer. I just found that quite honestly. It's tough to have a lot of sympathy for a bunch of affluent white men. I mean athlete at one. Point is going for a job interview and the woman tells me how much remaking is always make a one twenty with bonuses by willing to settle for one ten and he says the smarmy look on his face. And I'm like listen. How can you build around mood on these guys and by the way? He's the cheapest Chris Cooper's by making at least two fifty and Tommy Lee. Jones is one of the very rich rich executive multimillionaire. So it just think it's tough to build a movie around. Those guys were hard to be sympathetic. For as good as those actors are and as much empathy you can ask for anybody who loses her job. Of course no matter how much you're making it's very sad to go through. Couldn't imagine the depression and especially for these men who really see themselves and their self worth through their job which is why still I do recommend it but I just think ultimately it's tough to rally around these guys in so many others have it so much worse off Joe. I couldn't put any better than what you just said and I'm realizing right now today. It's Kinda Ben Affleck. Centric show much like last week. I'll say much more but stay tuned all right exactly. Well the good tease all right. So entertainment news to pass along networks picking up Johnny Isa. Raise the lovebirds a week after being pulled from its April third theatrical. Release BECAUSE OF CONCERNS ABOUT CRONY BARS. Lovebirds going to net flicks. It was set to be released via paramount. But it's denouncing Annapolis as directed by Michael Showalter. I recognize that name because he directed the big sick Kamaluddin Janis breakthrough movie. This is about a following a couple on the brink of a break-up and then become embroiled in a bizarre and hijinks filled murder mystery so Hollywood grapple the closure of US theaters. You got many movies now. Being sent to digital services weeks early speaking out I saw. The hunt is now available here on direct. Tv IN NORTH JERSEY. Bergen County. I also saw the invisible man with Elizabeth. Moth is available. But it's like twenty bucks come on movie. Movie theaters movie chains like listen. I'm I paying twenty bucks. We give it to me for ten. I know listen. The North Jersey price of jive discuss fourteen twenty five to see a movie so I got to pay more for this. I guess the thought is. You're watching it with a spouse or with a partner so twenty bucks ten bucks each now. Normalcy movie solar. Come on those movies should be ten bucks right now. Like I'm not going to pay twenty bucks to go see the hunt. At least in this case the lovebirds is going to be on Netflix. Coming soon really like Janis work speaking of the edge off which I had just been seen in theaters and was robbed of I. It's now going to be released early. Digitally paramount announced on March thirty first on Vod in America's of scientists we'd get accelerate toward the home market in the wake of nationwide closing. This is footsteps. Movies like bloodshot. The way back and Pixar's ladies classic onward which also going to be available so it's interesting right now for movie theaters deal. Wait to just release the movie you know in October of November. You know what the bond movies doing our quiet place to or D- released the movie on. Netflixing the lovebirds is doing or just trying to put vod especially if it was just in theaters definitely tricky time right now. It's there's no right answers here. Joe None whatsoever and I guess whatever effect through bottom line the least and so I guess if these production companies can make more money now by putting out on the Odeon sacrifice in the theatrical run. Then that's what they're aiming to do but good for us. I'll watch sonic the HEDGEHOG. I liked your review a few weeks ago. So I'm I'm excited to WATCH THAT ON THE THIRTY FIRST. I love it. Goes Jim Carrey other news? This year's Cannes Film Festival's been postponed organizers announced march nineteenth new dates being at the end of June on the crown jewels. If you're a movie Fan are the seventy third edition was set to take place may twelfth the twenty third the event and it's modern history has never been cancelled so the French government is now trying to go to late June for it. They've branded gatherings of five thousand or more people in confined venues which came organizers. Insist would have no impact in the festival. The largest venue the Lumiere Theater seats twenty three hundred people but the country leaner up the band two thousand people or more so therefore that would impact as far as movies being seen and also harassed for Netflix. They're pledging one hundred million dollars in relief to out of work production community. This is going towards third parties in nonprofit providing emergency relief so I know NEP elicits a lot of criticism. But it's nice to see the fact that they're giving some money Towards people definitely need right now. Now it's time from Tony while the Evanston Club Patrick. Gallow master storyteller right now. Here's a new podcast. I'm excited to share with all of you. Go and see hosted by Malcolm. Glad well produced by the team behind revisionist history go and see is a six part series focused on Lexus and the philosophy of Ganci Buso which means go and see for yourself and idea that stems from the belief that if you experience something yourself you have a better understanding of people and how to create something for them in this series. Lexus invites global to Japan to discover their unconventional thinking and processes firsthand find out. How Japanese tea ceremony influenced engineering of a car window? How the sound of an engine is to make a musical composition to elicit certain emotions. How Understanding Samurai Warriors is the dewey suspension innovation? Glad well learns that no detail is left behind that a car company can learn more about cars by studying people go inside. Lexus headquarters in Japan. Ride along on a top secret test. Track master driver sitting the expertly designed seats actually lowers to walk into the vehicle. Follow glad well on his journey which started march fifth wherever you like to listen visit. Lexus DOT com slash curiosity for more stories? Like these a pleasure bringing Patrick gallow. You can follow me on twitter at Patrick. Gallo a guy who is a graduate. The prestigious American musical and Dramatic Academy Adamy New York City acting musical theatre dance. He's done it all and the reason I wanNA talk to is. Because he's a part of my favorite fill of two thousand nine hundred. Which is the Irishman? And he's part of my favorite scene in which you're going to dive into here in detail. Patrick first and foremost thanks so much for the time. Welcome to sinophile eight. Thanks for having me Adnan. It's a real to be here brother Patrick. I have seen that seen at least a dozen times. I saw the Irishman three times in theaters. I saw at the New York Film Festival twice. I saw it the Friday night when it debuted in September and then I saw