19 Episode results for "Kermit Roosevelt"

BONUS: How The CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy In 4 Days

Up First

38:58 min | 2 years ago

BONUS: How The CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy In 4 Days

"Hey, there up first listeners it is Saturday, not a weekday. And we've got a bonus episode for you today. This month marks the fortieth anniversary of the Iranian revolution. Which led to the overthrow of Iran's head of state. The Shah a hostage crisis at the American embassy and Iran becoming an Islamic Republic. It is cited as the year, Iran, and the United States became enemies, but that animosity actually has earlier roots in this episode of through line new history podcast from NPR hosts rum, teen Arab Bluey and run up. Delfa ta explore the US's role in the nineteen Fifty-three coup in Iran, August fifteenth nineteen fifty three. Shortly before midnight, and Tehran Iran's capital city. The air was thick with anticipation something big was about to happen. The elected prime minister of Iran. Bahaman Mozelle was sitting at home waiting. He knew something was coming. And he had no idea still be prime minister by morning. So with each tick tick tick of the clock, he knew that the future of Iran without state one truck loan of presidential guard soldiers we're going to most ex house the midnight. Their mission was simple go to Mosul decks house in the middle of the night, knock on the door telomeres, fired most of them protests, undoubtedly say, you can't fire me I'm elected and at that point you would arrest him that failed because most had f found out about the arrest. News of it leaked out. Then there was a bit of panic among the army that was supposed to come out and support the arrest of Los Adam. The phone lines were supposed to be caught. They were not cod. So there were a number of missteps that took place and when the soldiers arrived at most of the house to arrest him other soldiers jumped out of the woods arrested those guys most desks forces had foiled a coup attempt. He would stay prime minister. But little did. He know that night was just the beginning of a much bigger battle to come. It would change the future of Iran and America. Iran. British Haiti brim of Mosser day arrived in Cairo. Most of the testimony three days of bloody rat. Time now and say has released on that show is. Nineteen fifty three coup. You're listening to through line where we go back in time to understand the president. Hey, I'm rob Tina of Louis. I'm Rhonda and welcome to the first episode of through line. I'm not gonna lie. I'm still a little bit shocked that they show. Here, but we're really excited and really glad that you decided to join us for this ride because Ronnie ni- have been talking about this for a while like a lot of you where news junkies, and we were just pretty frustrated with the lack of historical context around a lot of the headlines we were reading and we end up in these Wikipedia wormholes trying to figure out the history behind things. So we wanted to create a show where you the listeners and us could go on this journey every single week and become better informed about the world around us and do it in a way that wasn't boring. Exactly. So in this first episode, we're going to take you to Iran and the story of four days in nineteen fifty three. All right. Ron team you were born in Iran, and you've spent a bunch of time there. So I'm curious how much had you heard about this American coup growing up? A definitely heard stuff about it. Especially for my father who would remind you all the time. Like, the only reason we're here in the US is because what the US did to our democracy in nineteen fifty three. Right. And I would always just kind of like brush it off like whatever that could have happened. This is just like Iran and conspiracy theory stuff, right? But as I grew up, I realized that US actually did interfere Iran's politics in nineteen Fifty-three. Let me honestly, I didn't have much of an idea about this going into the episode. And it's like a a really big shocking thing to not have much ninety about. Because I always thought that nineteen Seventy-nine was the real piddle moment Ray that the Iranian revolution happened that year and the Husted crisis at the American embassy, those were the things that really set the tone for like this very tense relationship between the US any run. Yeah. I mean that makes sense. Like, why would you? You or any other American pick differently right because nineteen Seventy-nine was such an important year. But nineteen Fifty-three is really when it all goes down, doesn't it? Sucked bay here. Dad was right. Yeah. It really does. Okay. I wanna get into it. It's a great story. So we're going to take you back to that pivotal moment. More than sixty five years ago to understand what happened during the coup while the US made that decision and how this event redefined the US, Iran relationship and change the world. Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from discover who believes innovation and good ideas can come from anywhere. Discover is one of the pioneers in giving people cash back on their purchases. And now they're edit again at the end of your first year as a new cardmember, they'll match all the cash back you've earned dollar for dollar with no caps. And no catch because discover believes in taking a good idea and making it even better check it out at discover dot com slash match. Cash back match offer only for new card members. Limitations apply. Call you lady luck. August sixteenth nineteen fifty three. At times, you have a very unladylike. Running. Early morning of August sixteenth nineteen Fifty-three American agents were hiding out in a safe house at a secret location in Tehran listening to this song. Luck be a lady tonight. A lady. They were waiting to hear whether the CU the engineered had worked and the move was electric using blasting booze flowing everyone's celebrating a job well done. Now. Remember, this is nineteen fifty three. So there were no breaking news alerts. No email. No good way to deliver information fast. So as far as these guys knew the coup had gone off without a hitch. And there was one guy who was a specially happy Kermit Roosevelt. So Kermit Roosevelt was chief of the CIA Nerius and Africa division like many of the figures in the early CI. He had been born into privilege gone to Ivy league schools. His grandfather had been Theodore Roosevelt distant relative of FDR as well. He was called in to help facilitate this transition so on July nineteenth nineteen Fifty-three Kermit Roosevelt crossed over into Iran. This is Stephen Kinzer. He wrote a groundbreaking book on this coup called all the Shah's men and son them back near me. Can you hear me? Hello research, fellow at Chatham house in London where she leads the Iran forum project, and they were are guides through this story. Okay. So Kermit Roosevelt entered Iran on July nineteenth with a pretty big mission ahead of him say Juku to get rid of Iran's prime minister Muhammad Muslim, and we'll explain why in a bit. But the first question rose about how to answer your asked myself. This question was how so you're sent into a foreign country and your assignment is overthrow the government. What do you do like, what do you do on the first day nine o'clock? You get to the office. How do you start even though the CIA had devised a plan for Savell? No, one was sure it would actually work. It was suddenly up to Roosevelt to destabilize a whole country. Step one, seize control of the Iranian press. Basically buy them off with bribes turned out that the press was quite corrupt and soon enough Roosevelt had columnists editors and reporters from most of Iran's newspapers on its payroll, then anti theft propaganda began printing everywhere. Plus, it was Jew homosexual a British agent anything that they thought would would outrage people. There was such an appetite for these stories that Iranian journalists just couldn't keep up so Roosevelt had to recruit the aid back in Washington to write some of the articles for Iranian press. In fact, one of them later wrote a memoir, and he talked about how bizarre it was at the CIA, you had the people plotting the Iran coup, and then you had analysts on the other side of word aware the covert action. And he said, I would write an article about how the deck was an atheist and he hated God. And then a couple of days. As later a guy from the other side of the hall in the analysis division would run over to my office holding up an Iranian newspaper and saying, wow, you won't believe how the newspapers in Iran, denouncing most look what this article, and I couldn't tell him. I wrote that article. Step to recruit allies on the ground. Most importantly, the Islamic clergy or mullah's who held a lot of power in Iran. Kermit Roosevelt made strategic payments to a number of important Mola's in exchange for them delivering sermons denouncing most deck from the pulpit as against God. And irreligious step three get Iran's king the Shaw on board and convince the Iranian Shah, Mohammad Raza pot of the that must have that was a threat this part took some persuading though. Yeah. Because in theory, at least the Shah and the prime minister were meant to work together. But there was a lot of tension between them because for decades Iran's parliament in Shaw had a tough time sharing power. It would be a big deal for the shot to help overthrow the prime minister. But Roosevelt's on opening to turn them against each other. That included bribing the shot sister in exchange for help convincing the shot to sign on and their reports that a for cope was. Even part of the deal, but that tactic failed. Eventually Roosevelt took matters into his own hands and began meeting with the Shaw almost every day at midnight in a taxi cab, always in a different location during these late night meetings Roosevelt managed to convince the Shah that Mosa was at threat. And so the Shah agreed to the coup and finally step for go to most of house in the middle of the night arrest him and consolidate power in the hands of the Shah who was more friendly towards the west than most del but remember the coup attempt failed at this point. You're probably wondering why the US went to all this. Trouble sending Roosevelt Tehran having him Stirrup chaos in the country and ultimately trying to carry out a coup. Why were they so hell bent on getting most out of power will the truth is the US was dragged into the situation by Great Britain? All because of one thing. The world oil supply and nationalist feeling ran high against Britain and the western democracy. We sometimes say the countries are blessed with resources, but sometimes resources can be a curse, particularly if you're a country that's week because there are always strong countries that wanna come and take what you have an Iran was cursed with a lot of oil oil was discovered there in one thousand nine hundred eight and almost immediately Great Britain took an interest. And at that time Britain was the world's biggest superpower. So they decided to strike a deal with the Iranian Shaw. And they needed a lot of oil this deal between the British any run. I was completely one sided Great Britain was taking well over eighty percent of the revenues while Iran was receiving about ten to twelve percent of the revenues from its natural resource. Wait a deal. Like that makes no sense though. Why did he Ron agree to that will? Yeah. It makes no sense. Unless you're in desperate need of money on Iran's government in the early. Twentieth. Century was desk. Britt Iran during the early part of the twentieth. Century was still ruled by the old codger. Royal dynasty was a very corrupt dynasty and it supported itself by selling off anything of value in Iran. They sold off the transportation industry the tobacco industry the caviar fisheries. They even sold off the country's treasury and banking industries. It was basically a free for all. And the British were first in line oil was by far their most valuable acquisition. And here's a fun. Fact, the company that controlled all of that oil was originally called the Anglo Persian oil company, which would later become every day. The supplies the few the. Shirley, m. So this was obviously very lucrative for them very lucrative and during World War One and two Iranian oil pump life into the British war effort. So it was absolutely essential to Britain's future. Okay. This all really helps. Explain the next part of the story. Right. Because before he's even prime minister, Mohammad Mosa del got to work lobbying against this unfair oil deal hoping to get a better deal for Iran. He tried to negotiate a new deal with the British that would allow Iran to keep a bigger share of the profits, which I'm sure freaked out the British and when the Goshi nations broke down the British imposed the worldwide embargo on Iranian oil, eventually in nineteen fifty one most convinced the Iranian parliament to nationalize Iran's oil and a month later, he was elected prime minister, which really sent British through the roof. Handle the oil nationalization programme took his case to the United Nations where they remained adamant in the British decided only solution was to get rid of most idea and put in a more favorable government. And most side, they're sensing the British were up to something shut down their embassy in Iran. And here's where I'm assuming the US enters the picture, right? Right. So they called the Americans for health and president Truman said no not going to do it. He actually sent a a mediator to Iran. He had most that come to Washington to try to persuade him. But when nothing worked he essentially told the British there's nothing you can do you're gonna have to swallow us like we had to swallow Mexico nationalizing its oil industry thirties. We didn't like it. You just going to have to live with this. But the following year. Dwight Eisenhower became president and his thinking was a little different. Suddenly, you don't have an American president who forbids military action. But on the contrary you have a new team that's eager to show that it's going to roll back threats to the United States and that played right into the British hands. Plus this was right around the time of the Cold War was heating up and Iran happened to share border with the Soviet Union. So what can he do to show that he's fighting communists while you can't bomb Moscow? He's not going to invade China. You can't go after the real enemy. It's not possible. So you have to go after somebody else. Iran also in this period. And I think it's important to mention there was a communist party known as the two day that was active in parliament was supporting was said dad, even though by all accounts was that. There was not a communist himself. The US was still on high alert all these factors as the British wanna eventually convinced the USC muster deck is threatening the world it can get onboard. With Britain's plan. See we're desperate for victory to stage a coup and overthrow Iran's prime minister what how mad was that. This evening is all they give me the brush you mud. Six AM the morning after the attempt Roosevelt and his men. Tired from nine to partying tuned into the radio. But all they heard was silence. And Roosevelt knew something had gone wrong. Then suddenly. The radio crackles on. Military music started playing. And most Adele announced victory over an attempted coup. Could he noticed that the Shah was nowhere to be found? And immediately suspected that the Shah was behind the coup attempt. Meanwhile, the shot new this might happen and fearing most Adele would come after him half done is private plane and flew to Baghdad and from there. He went on to Rome where he told reporters, I'm probably going to have to look for work now because obviously never going to be able to go back to Iran. So to recap at the end of day to the Shaw had left, Iran. Most adults was still in power with no idea that the US was behind the coup attempt and Roosevelt had failed. But even though his boss is back in Washington told him he could go home after the coup failed. Kermit Roosevelt was not willing to give up that easily. I think it came a little bit from the old CI can-do mentality. The also sends how weak the Iranian political establishment was he thought he still had assets that he hadn't used. Most Adele, wasn't out of the woods. Just yet. Kermit Roosevelt had not given up. And actually it was having a plan b. This message comes from NPR sponsor REI REI believes that a live outdoors is a life. Well lived and they have for eighty years. So check out their podcast wild ideas worth living for inspiring stories of people who took the road, less traveled here from explorers, athletes, authors and experts in the field follow how they're taking wild ideas and making them a reality every day find that on items Spotify, Stitcher or wherever you listen to podcasts. August seventeenth nineteen fifty three. Couple of days after the failed coup it down crowds of supporters packed the streets. Chanting. The words has one and victories have the nation. It seemed like the worst was behind most of he survived a coup attempt and live to tell the tale. But this was the calm before the storm backroom dealings were happening out of sight and the threat to most was still very real. And we'll get to that during this momentary calm, you want to give you some insight into the man who was at the center of this whole thing. The man the US and Britain terrified. Madam ascetics? Get the feeling that this is a kind fatherly person who cares about the people, and he's very respectful of people. He talks to people would respect for the first time. That in Iranian politician advised him as dear fellow citizen. This is Abraham neuropathy. I'm retired physician. Dr nor is he was born in nineteen forty two in a town in Iran. Call Qasr Wien, and he's the most ideal superfan. He even create a website to honor him. Dr nor was he became very interested in politics from young age. I have no idea exactly why because we didn't even have radio and our house when I was a kid when I was in lamentably school. Maybe I was tiny and was bullied a lot. Maybe it. So I wanted some sort of Justice in the world, Dr noisy like a lot of Iranians sees most kind of a national hero sort of Gandhi for Iran. He's really become a mythical figure. But to really understand Moore said there we have to find the man behind the myth. So Muhammad most the deck was in Iran aristocrat again, Stephen Kinzer, his father had been finance minister for decades under the jar regime is mother was a Princess he held various positions at sun, Mbeki minister for an affair as minister finance elected twice to the Iranian parliament. He went off to be educated in Europe. He came home and began campaigning against the agreement by which the British were trying to subjugate Iran and became quite outraged at the injustices, he saw round and must had dad was known to be very dramatic. There are these anecdotes where he used to receive visitors in his bed in his pajamas. For example, most of was pretty eccentric guy prone to outbursts and dramatic speeches where he would cry even pass out and the US and Britain saw him as kind of erotic and unreliable difficult to negotiate with even if he was a fan of democratic ideas, very much believed in the democratic ideals on checks and balances that were necessary to curtail monarchical power at the time. And he came of age during a time where these changes also influenced the political system the biggest political tunechi witnessed happen when most was in his twenty s between nineteen o five and nineteen eleven Iran went through a constitutional revolution. This was a remarkable moment in Middle Eastern history. And in the history of the developing world, Iran developed a constitution nineteen hundred six there are countries in the Middle East that don't even have a constitute. Today. The revolution sought to make your on more democratic with things like parliament constitution and a free press see for centuries country had been ruled by Shah's kinks with power passing from fathers sons, but by the turn of the twentieth century as a turn of the twentieth century, the corrupt irresponsible business dealings that the shots which riding the running economy straight into the ground which made the Shah's really unpopular among the people. I'm this wasn't like normal corruption. We're talking crazy excessive spending he had like one shot had a harem of sixteen hundred people sixteen hundred one six zero zero and he and his many many sons would use the national treasury as their personal piggy Bank taking money out whenever they wanted to travel around Europe. You also demanded that people call him one of the following Hanes show show show. Shaw's audio mash Silom of the universe at Dhahran subdural climate nigga all night guarding the flock Saudi adult that rule you seeming or shadow of God on earth. I could see wanting to become guarding a block. Or would you prefer shadow of got on her? I personally like subdural climate. I don't know. But it just feels like. Right now, you're right anyway point is the shots were out of control and the constitutional revolution. United people across Iran against the Shah in favor of a more Representative government a coalition if you will of intellectuals people from the bizarre, the clergy coalition stood up to the monarchy violence broke out. And one of the most interesting stories that came across from team that I told you about yet was the story of this American guy who actually fought any Ron's constitutional revolution. Really? Yeah. His name was Howard basket rule. Howard Baskerville who was it. Graduate of Princeton University seminary school Baskerville wasn't American missionary and in this period. There was a lot of missionary activity coming from the United States. They went support education in various countries throughout the Middle East who came to own identified with plight and basketball and wanted to go and fight on the side of the constitutional. Exactly. But the US Representative in Iran, begged Baskerville, not to join the fight became to him and yelled at him. No. You can't do that. You know, you shouldn't get involved in civil war of other countries. You come here to help, you know, where he wouldn't listen. And then he threatened him that if you go and involve yourself in the war. I take away your pass food is. Okay. This is my pass it to him. He said, no, I just because I was born in America that doesn't mean I'm better than them. I'm like them. I'm going to fight for them for their cause. And this is a good cause. Unfortunately, he dies just the first hour of a battle. And by the basket will his sculpture was installed in constitutional hall in tabbies and his tomb is like a worship place so Iranian it's fabricated. These missionaries action to America as a government. So what I'm saying? Is that American left very good impression in Iran. Iran has loved it. I had never heard of the sky Howard Baskerville. Neither had I before this. I mean, it's really wild to think that this guy would have laid down his life for Iran's constitutional revolution. Like think about it. How many Americans that time even new way round was let alone go over there and fight? I and it's interesting because at that time, we're in the show were the bad guys. But America was kind of an ally our fight exactly until they got involved. The days after the cooler tapped, however, all that seemed to matter was that was that was a man of the people and that he was still in power, but out of sight, a new plot against most death was brewing. Kermit Roosevelt's plan b. Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from male chimp, it might sound like male champ just does Email marketing, but they actually do a lot more to help your business grow because growth looks different to everyone. Male champ helps guide you to the right marketing decisions for your business from audience management to ad campaigns automation male champ, they do more than male. August nineteen nineteen Fifty-three tension is focused once again on the Middle East where in Iran, I've taken a dramatic. Double twist during three days after the Shaath flat and Roosevelt's coup attempt failed Roosevelt set the state for his second quit and on August nineteenth. It began hundreds and hundreds of rioters filled the streets of Tehran and in a word. It was chaos. Three hundred hundred wounded is a conservative estimate and his plan was this. First of all higher gangs of Iran ins through people who controlled criminal protection rackets and pay them to go out on the street and cause chaos to Roosevelt actually paid criminals and gang members to storm into the city beat up people in the streets break, shop windows, shoot your guns into mosques. And while doing all that. Yeah, we love most the deck. We love communism. And then he hired a second mob to attack the first month which led to bloody violent clashes between the two mobs. And the really trippy thing was that everybody involved. Everybody involved in the battles was being paid to be there. But what they didn't know was they were being paid by the same source, the CIA and all of this was designed to create confusion as the signal that most is that it was a source of the violence in the country that he was losing control, which was becoming more and more true. Most decorated fused to send the police out because he said well there. Demonstrators people should be allowed to say what they want. He truly was too naive to grasp what was happening. And this brings us to the final part of its plan to get rid of most doubt once and for all. Roosevelt ordered both mobs to to most of those house. So a giant crowd surrounded? Most decks house shouting insults and throwing stones in potion show up but several police and military commanders including a couple with tanks. People who Kermit Roosevelt had bribed to participate. Those officers began opening fire on Muster's house while inside most NFU of his closest advisors huddled together tells them I wanna die here in house. But somehow they managed to drag him out of back window. They got him over a fence. He'd fled house was looted. And immediately thereafter Kermit Roosevelt went to get his savior general who he'd been hiding in a safehouse brought the guy who radio station and the guy proclaimed himself has a new leader. So this guy general saw was putting tower as a placeholder until the Shah who remember had fled to Rome could be turned was that that eventually turned himself in and just like that with a couple of chess moves Kermit Roosevelt's plant assured Iran into a new era. Shar who had fled to Rome comes home backed by generals. I hit military strongman who engineered is return to power everything was that was the Shah was not which isn't really surprising, given the corruption of the Shah's the Shaw then ruled over Iran like a dictator for twenty five years and the western powers, including the US didn't really care because give them easy access to Iran's oil during that time, the Shah did everything in his power to get rid of any trace of the most dealt era Mossad the name was banned again. Dr no Rosie. You don't hear anything Masada after the coup? I was that was the time. I was actually in high school. I don't remember anything, you know, much Masada the coup. They were off limits things that the running government wanted people to forget under these conditions must adopt became a sort of legend, a symbol of Iran's loss. Potential the CIA only officially acknowle. It's role in coup in twenty thirteen sixty years later in case you're wondering what happened to muscle. So he turned himself in in the quick shift of power was finally ended and awaits trial and was placed on trial who's convicted of treason and sentenced to a prison term followed by life under house arrest. A couple of his closest advisors are executed. There were hundreds of other executions of people who are suspected to be disloyal in the military and Masa deck remained almost taboo, figure almost for the rest of his life. As for Kermit Roosevelt, Kermit Roosevelt stayed in Tehran to wait for the shot to come back from Rome, and then arranged a farewell meeting with the Shah before leaving Iran. The Shah greeted him with a toast. And he said I oh my throne to God. Mike people in do you? He was right. Right. Although he might not be the right order. So Kermit Roosevelt went home. And of course, he was welcomed jubilantly back in Washington as kind of conquering hero. He went onto more years at the CIA, then later left became an oil consultant, speaking of oil, the holy grail of resources that started this whole thing as you might expect Iranian still ended up with a pretty bad deal. After the coup was set in done may again blow westward. Okay. So given all this fundamentalism resentment built up against the Shah declared martial law in most of Iran in nineteen seventy nine. Iranians reached a breaking point and revolted against the shot. This shelf fled Iran and the clergy assume control the country. That same year a hostage crisis unfolded at the American embassy. CBS new young Iranians described as students acting with the blessing of Atala Khomeini have occupied American embassy in regarding days of unsuccessfully. Trying to get the American hostages out of Ron the government of the United States is now trying to get the deposed Shaw around out of this country. And there is no signs that either problem is likely to be solved. So in nine hundred seventeen nine in nineteen Fifty-three coup was invoked as justification for seizing the American embassy. The argument was at the time that these diplomats these American diplomats inside the embassy whereabout to do what Americans had done in Iran. Overthrowing most I did and restoring show, and they were about to do the same thing. And therefore they justified to the public wide. I needed to shut the embassy down this Roya cocky on. She writes a lot about this time in Iran's history and the subject is. Deeply personal for her as someone who was born and raised in your own during the tumultuous years of Iranian, revolution and its aftermath and Roya challenged everything. We thought we knew about this story because up until now we thought the basic story was that pre nineteen fifty three US in. Iran are pretty chill. Brin is the bad guy. Nineteen fifty three coup happens. The US installs a dictator in Iran, and eventually the people respond with a revolution and hostage crisis and the US in Iran, become mortal enemies, so that is the narrative that was presented at a time. It was wrong for the US to intervene. But at the same time, this isn't the whole story and tells only a very small part of why Iran has been stuck in this place for so long Roya says that narrative, let's one group off the hook way too easily Iran's clergy of peace. That's missing from the way. This narrative has been told is the fact that Kermit Roosevelt. This is very wisely. Obviously to go pay visit to the grand Ayatollah Barani in Tehran. And you know, history changes course, after he does that. So remember when Roosevelt got help from the melas to carry out his plan B after that first attempt failed while ROY of things that moment was the real game changer. She says Iran's clergy has been conspiring behind the scenes for a long time to oppose democracy in Iran. She says they saw a chance to undermine democracy in nineteen fifty three and then in nineteen seventy nine when it seemed like democracy would be the result of the revolution. They saw another opportunity to take power, and they did this all on Boqing was idell Nate. Yes. Yes. It's really truly ironic because by nineteen Seventy-nine most does long dead, but his legacy is not. So while he himself was. Completely axed by the clerical powers at the time. His narrative his Lesi became very useful to the regime in other words, it's a mistake to put all the blame for Iran's problems on the US intervention in nineteen fifty three that the Iranian clergy have played a part too. I hear what Roya saying Iran's mullah's have definitely than a number on the country. And there's plenty of blame to go around between the US Iran, especially since nineteen seventy nine, and there's a long list of of back and forth grievances that have added to and fuelled attention, but you can still make the argument that the original sin of the US Iran relationship was what happened in August nineteen fifty three and that that set the tone for everything to fall. In the United States US Iran relations begin and end with the hostage crisis. That's the moment that is the key turning point on the source of everything from the Iranian perspective. Things are very different Iran. Ian and American perceptions they're like parallel train tracks. Just keep running parallel. They never coincide. That's it burst episode. Tina Bluey I'm read that you've been listening to through lie. I show is produced by me and Ramtane. Our team includes Jamie York, Jordan, Anna, Hopman, Lawrence William. It's Michelle land as minding Nigel Eaton, but you also to Larry cap low for editing help and Greta pitting her for her help backtracking. I music was composed by drop electric special. Thanks to on your grandma, Chris Turpin until PR and Seve Nelson for working so hard to make this show a reality. And now that Arab Louis promptings dad who helped us out with translations finally a big huge massive shoutout to guy Roz Jeff Rodgers Neva grandson us Michigan poor on the whole Ted radio hour and how I built this team for teaching us how to make radio. If you like the show, please leave us a review on I tunes until you're Brent's to subscribe. And let's keep the conversation going if you have an idea or thoughts in the episode. It has on Twitter a through line NPR or send us an Email to through line at MPR dot org. Thanks for listening. That was the first episode of through line new history podcast from NPR. You can subscribe to through line right now. New episodes will be dropping every Thursday. I'm Dave agreeing. This is up first and we'll be back Monday morning with all the news you need to start your day support for this podcast and the following message. Also, come from IBM to meet the needs of the world's growing population. Farmers are working with IBM and Watson to help increase crop yields. Let's put smart to work. Find out how at IBM dot com slash smart.

Iran Kermit Roosevelt Iran United States Shah prime minister Shaw Ron US Iran Britt Iran CIA Tehran American embassy NPR Britain Roosevelt Tehran Washington America Theodore Roosevelt
Operation Ajax Pt. 2

Conspiracy Theories

46:54 min | Last month

Operation Ajax Pt. 2

"Kermit roosevelt junior pace nervously in a small room at the american embassy in tehran. It was just after midnight on august. Sixteenth nineteen fifty three. He was waiting for a phone call to confirm the arrest of iran's prime minister mohammad mosaic. The call never arrived in the early hours of the morning. Roosevelt heard the rumble of tanks in the streets outside in crowds marching past the embassy. They chanted victory to the nation. Mos adak has one at seven o'clock radio to ron broadcast a special address from the prime minister. He informed the iranian people that he'd foiled a coup organized by the shaw of iran and so-called foreign elements roosevelt's struggle to piece together. What happened as reports from his iranian contacts. Board in the shaw was on a plane to iraq. Exiled romanians who had participated in the coup had been arrested. Mosaic was in full control of the country. Roosevelt had new choice but to prepare a report to his superiors in the united states. But he didn't send it to the state department or the white house. He sent it to the cia brief. And to the point roosevelt's report stated that the ajax the mission to overthrow the iranian government had failed. The reply from the cia was equally. Kurt as the story is told by some in the cia. It instructed him to abandon the assignment in lever ron immediately. They feared his life was in danger. Roosevelt these evacuation orders started to form a new plan. Perhaps all was not lost he disregarded washington's commands and gathered the few iranian contacts. He had left in the country. Roosevelt was going rogue the real coup in iran was about to begin. Welcome to conspiracy theories a spotify original from podcast. Every monday and wednesday we dig into the complicated stories behind the world's most controversial events and search for the truth. I'm carter roy and i'm molly brandenburg and neither of us are conspiracy theorists but we are open minded skeptical and curious. Don't get us wrong sometimes. The official version is the truth. Sometimes it's not. You can find episodes of conspiracy theories all other spotify originals from podcast for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. This is our second episode on operation. Ajax the cia mission that allegedly overthrew a democratically elected government in nineteen fifty-three last week. We explored what led to the oil crisis in iran and the rise of the country's nationalistic. Prime minister mohammad mosaic. His fight with briton. Petroleum rights devastated iran's economy in one thousand nine hundred eighty three. The shaw rallied. The common people who rose up and deposed. Mozambique this week will examine the theory that the coup wasn't engineered by the shaw and his supporters. At all instead it was the work of a single american. Cia agent to use bribery intimidation and violence to topple iran's government who we have all that and more coming up. Stay with us. This episode is brought to you by fan duel sportsbook. Don't just watch college basketball. Get in the action. Shoot your shot with the fan. Duel sportsbook app. There's more ways to play the bracket all tournament. Long new users. Get your i bet. Risk free up to one thousand dollars. Sign up with code upsets on the fan duel sportsbook gap and make your first deposit today. Twenty one plus and presence in virginia i online real money wager only for one thousand dollar risk brett refund issued as non-withdrawal site credit that expires in fourteen days restrictions. Apply see full terms that sportsbook duck fan duel dot com gambling problem. Call one eight hundred gambler. This episode is brought to you by. Cvs health if someone you love is at risk of a fall. The symphony medical alert system by cvs. Health can help support their safety at home. With twenty four seven emergency response monitoring it helps keep an eye on their wellbeing when you can't be their terms and conditions apply learn more about symphony at cvs dot com slash symphony or. Find it at your nearest cvs health hub. This episode is brought to you by wild turkey one to one bourbon. There's a time and a place to be both but when something worse watch it. That's why while turkey still made with the same recipe in nineteen forty to age longer for more cared there with a high content spicy. Wild turkey is the perfect four year old fashioned or should we say both fashioned wild turkey. One oh one bourbon. No apologies. Order on drizzly dot com never compromise drink responsibly. While turkey kentucky straight bourbon whiskey fifty point five percent alcohol volume one one proof copyright twenty twenty one. Campari america new york new york. After the nineteen fifty-three coup-d'etat iran's shah was welcomed home by cheering crowds. He announced that mosaics regime ended. Because he's lost the love of the iranian people. But according to american journalist stephen kinzer moses extra mistake was losing the favor of the british government in his two thousand three book. All the shah's men kinser makes the case that nationalizing the oil industry was possibly the largest factor that led to the coup that destroyed. Iran's democracy allegedly the operation was performed by the american cia which was confusing because in the nineteen forties. america's supported iran nationalizing. Its oil somehow the. Us turned against moses deck. This brings us to conspiracy theory number. One britain convinced the united states to stage. The coup against iran's democratically elected prime minister during the early days of the iranian oil crisis america sided with mosaic and his government newspapers in the us lauded the prime minister's statesmanlike qualities in passion to defend his people time magazine named mosaic man of the year britain was largely alone in its condemnation of iran in nineteen fifty one. British military leaders drew up plans to invade the country and claim it's oil by force. They reached out to their strongest military ally for support. The united states president harry. Truman though was alarmed britain was considering an invasion. He promptly called a meeting of his national security council to assess this growing global crisis. The news wasn't good. Truman staff warned that invading iran would have disastrous consequences. It was likely that mozambique would turn to the soviet union for help. He already had connections to the communist two day party. Which received orders from the kremlin. This could be the final push that would turn iran into a communist state at that moment in one thousand nine hundred eighty. One america was embroiled in the korean war. Meaning truman couldn't afford another country becoming a cold war battleground. He instructed the state department to reject. Britain's plans for invasion the iranian oil crisis needed to be solved peacefully. Even if that meant britain lost its primary source of petroleum. Truman dispatched special envoys to negotiate between the two countries. Britain's invasion plans were shelved in government officials worked with american mediators but secretly prime minister winston. Churchill disagreed with truman. He didn't think it would take an invasion for iran to fall to the soviet union. In fact it would require much less. Largely because of moses deck kinser claims that in private churchill called motza deck quote an elderly lunatic bent on wrecking his country and handing it over to the communists in quote convinced that the iranian prime minister had to be replaced. British intelligence officers reached out to motza decks political opponents muslim clerics and iranian gangsters they told these contacts that churchill was willing to finance a coup overthrow the prime minister. If successful the conspiritors would be rewarded politically and financially but in october nineteen fifty two mosaic caught wind of the plot in response he closed the british embassy and expelled its workers from iran by the end of the year. Churchill didn't have a single intelligence asset in the country again. british intelligence reached out to the united states for aid. They asked if america was willing to use their personnel to carry out the coup and again the truman administration refused to get involved but then the presidential election changed everything. Truman was succeeded by dwight d. Eisenhower who had campaigned on an aggressive anti-communist platform churchill. Hope that this new administration would be more open to intervening iran if he aligned it with. Eisenhower's priorities two weeks. After the election churchill sent a diplomat to washington to meet with allen dulles eisenhower soon to be cia director the british on voi- painted mosaic is a weak leader who would be unable to resist the inevitable coup by the two day communists and while dulles was easily persuaded the incoming president would be harder to convince like his predecessor. Eisenhower was reluctant to meddle in iranian politics. In january of nineteen fifty-three he met with churchill in new york and the president made it clear that when it came to iran. He thought all that britain had done was bully a weaker nation. However the situation in iran was growing violence even without direct foreign intervention on february twenty eighth nineteen fifty-three a mob attack the iranian prime minister's home. And ron the crowd was led by one of iran's most gangsters called chaban the brainless. Most front gate was smashed in forcing the prime minister to escape over the back wall in his pajamas. Though these attackers claim to be rallying in support of the shah they were paid by most addicts political enemies. This encounter prompted. Iran's prime minister to arrest many of his political opponents a move that angered the people but across the atlantic the attack on mozambique home had a more sinister affect. It confirmed americans suspicions that he was losing political support and would soon be overthrown. Kinser believes that eisenhower. I began to change his mind about the idea of regime. Change at a national security council meeting on march fourth nineteen fifty three there. He was shown bleak analysis of iran's prospects his advisors anticipated the country would inevitably become a dictatorship under mosaic. As long as the prime minister was in control of iran the country was stable but if he died or was assassinated the two day communists would take over an ally with soviet union. Other countries in the middle east could follow suit leading the soviet union to own more than sixty percent of the world's oil reserves. It could mean their victory in the cold war. If this was true is in howard had a choice. After that fateful meeting either he could order the overthrow of mosaic or the soviet union would is in our was sold in two weeks operation. Ajax was set into motion. His administration wired one million dollars to the cia station in tehran. About nine point. Eight million dollars today. The officer there was to use the money to bring about the fall of mohammed most deck well kinser narrative about the political intrigue behind iran's nineteen fifty-three coup is thrilling for nearly fifty years. Both the cia. And britain's m. i six denied it to say that they had a role in it was just another conspiracy theory that all changed in march of two thousand when american secretary of state madeleine albright acknowledged the united states role in the nineteen fifty three coup in a speech to the american iranian council in washington d. c. She said that. The united states played a significant role. Albright was sparse with details. She only claimed. The eisenhower administration believed intervention was justified at the time but the covert operations irreparably harmed relations between america and iran. That wasn't the last time. The american government was forced to address operation ajax in two thousand nine. Us president barack obama spoke of america's in iran during a speech in cairo egypt. It was the first time an american president had mentioned the coup and though he to the details vague obama said that defined future peace. Both nations had to acknowledge the past finally in two thousand thirteen. A research institution called the national security archive filed a freedom of information act with the cia. They wanted to see the documents about the one thousand nine fifty three revolution and they got them exactly sixty years. After the coup the cia released a trove of papers they explicitly stated that the military coup was carried out under cia direction as an act of us foreign policy given the extensive evidence provided from madeleine albright barack obama and even the c. i. a. itself. It's clear conspiracy theory number. One is true. Britain convinced the eisenhower administration to take action in iran on a scale of one to tan with ten being the most believable. I give this a ten out of tan. I also give this theory tan. The evidence for the us's involvement is overwhelming and it fits perfectly with american strategy at the time combat communism. However i will not that even though operation ajax was approved. That doesn't mean it went. According to plan and the unintended consequences affected us and iranian relations for decades coming up one cia agent goes rogue and change the course of iran forever high listeners. It's vanessa from podcast. When you think of a criminal do you picture a killer. A gangster a thief. I bet you didn't think it could be the little old lady down the street. Who murdered her tenants. Every wednesday on my series female criminals. Meet the unlikeliest of felons. Mothers neighbors and unsuspecting lovers with a penchant for dangerous behavior. Discover the psychology and motives behind their disturbing crimes and find out where their story stands today. But that's not all airing right now on. Female criminals is our special five part. Look at the world's most infamous fem vitol's women who were deceptive and deadly but not always the villain catch these episodes and more by following the spotify original from park. Ast female criminals new episodes premiere weekly listened free on spotify. or wherever. You get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by landrover. Don't follow the crowd blaze your own trail in the twenty twenty. One range rover sport with its iconic muscular design and six available powertrains including a high performance. Five hundred eighteen horsepower v. Aids range rover sport turns even an ordinary morning commute into an exhilarating driving experience and to deliver optimal control terrain response to with dynamic program tunes the suspension for greater stability and is ready for whatever road conditions. Come your way to experience. The range rover sport for yourself. Contact your local land rover retailer today to schedule a test drive landrover above and beyond now back to the story in nineteen fifty three. The eisenhower administration approved a plan called operation. Ajax which is overthrow. Iran's government one million dollars was wired to the c. I. a. station in theron a single officer named kermit roosevelt was essentially given carte blanche to depose the prime minister and install a new regime in iran while it seemed. The plan was foiled on the early morning of august sixteenth when it became apparent that moses debt caught wind of it somehow four days later the prime minister was imprisoned. Shaw was the undisputed leader of iran conspiracy theory number two stipulates that when operation ajax failed roosevelt went rogue and disobeyed orders from the cia. He sowed chaos in tehran. Which helped install the shaw's new regime actions that changed iran forever in one thousand nine hundred fifty three kermit roosevelt. Junior was a rising star in the cia. He was the grandson of president theodore roosevelt and shared his grandfather's enthusiasm for adventure and he had considerable experience in the middle east. Naturally he was the first choice to run operation ajax when he received his orders from washington. He was ecstatic. Roosevelt immediately flew to beirut then snuck into iran through the deserts of syria and iraq. He entered the country on july nineteenth. It was already a tumultuous time granted that several members of the iranian parliament had recently resigned in protest of motza decks rule the prime minister announced a referendum to dissolve the legislative body and rule via emergency powers. He was making himself a dictator. Iran was a tinderbox and roosevelt was eager to light the fuse. He assumed a fake name. James log ridge in rented a villa into ron soon. He was meeting with the current. Cia an m. i. Six assets in the country and recruiting new ones to carry out operation. Ajax is relatively simple and involve four main components. First roosevelt would stoke resentment in the streets of iran. He and his associates would bribe muslim. Clerics newspapers gangsters to undermine motza idex authority second they would use military officers to arrest mosaic in proclaim his rule illegitimate third mobs paid by the cia would fill the streets and sees important government buildings police headquarters and radio stations and finally a new. Prime minister would emerge and take control of the chaotic situation. That person of course was an iranian chosen in advance by the cia an m. i. Six the british recruited this new prime minister in nineteen fifty to a political opponent. Prime minister named foss lola zahedi but it was the cia who contacted him about joining this new ku operation specifying that he would be working with the americans not the british general zahedi agreed and received nearly one hundred thousand dollars from the cia to buy his loyalty but the rest of the plan was far more complicated. Roosevelt needed to create an intense psychological campaign against moses deck control of the press was critical. Also the cia used bribes and political connections to manipulate nearly all of the newspapers in iran articles. In these papers were written by operatives and functioned as propaganda designed portray motza dak a communist sympathizer and fanatic. This undermined the prime minister support among both working class and upper middle class. Iranians next roosevelt organized various riots and demonstrations against moses attack iranian instigators like chaban the brainless marshall droves of vicious mobs to fill the streets by the summer of nineteen fifty-three mozambique was isolated and unpopular. Now all the cia justify -cation to dismiss motza deck from his post. The prime minister dissolved parliament. The cia allegedly claimed that only one other office in the iranian constitution could legally oromo zadek to step down the shah of iran himself. However the shaw wasn't receptive to roosevelt's advances in fact the king sent away cia assets who approached him. Not only did. The shaw believe operation. Ajax would he feared mosaic would inevitably retaliate against himself and his family operation. Ajax couldn't move forward with the shaw so roosevelt persuaded in bribes advisors to join the cia initiative. Once they were on board they put pressure on. The king eventually worn down. The shah was ready to consider taking part in the coup on one condition. He must meet with kermit roosevelt in person in early. August roosevelt agreed. The shaw said accardo was villa which the cia agent climbed into the back seat of. He hid under a blanket. As the car passed through toronto various security checkpoints. No one could know that. The king of iran was meeting with an american when roosevelt arrived at the palace. The shaw greeted him warmly once inside. The cia agent explain the premise of operation. Ajax he assured his hosts that it had the full support of the american and british governments as proof. Winston churchill had arranged for a secret code word to be aired on the bbc the following night instead of ending the broadcast with the phrase. It is now midnight the station would announce it is now exactly midnight. This minor change would go unnoticed by all the shaw of on. It was clear to roosevelt though despite these assurances that the iranian monarch still had reservations about the plan frustrated. He offered an ultimatum. Either the shaw agreed to participate immediately or roosevelt would launch a new operation without him. The king was either with the cia or against it. It wasn't a choice at all. The shaw agreed to do whatever the cia required of him. Roosevelt covertly met with the leader nearly every night for the next several days is they ironed out the details of the coup. A few days prior to august fifteenth. The shaw would sign to royal decrees or firmin's return by roosevelt and his iranian associates. The first document would dismiss mosaic as iran's prime minister the second named generals a haiti as his successor. This would be delivered by the shah's loyal imperial guard. Their leader was colonel. Nasiri one of roosevelt's iranian contacts though roosevelt was confident that the plan would work. The shaw requested to leave to ron. Before the firms were delivered to mosaic. If operation ajax did fail he wanted to be far from mos addicts influence. Roosevelt agreed to his terms after months of planning and hundreds of thousands of dollars in bribes. Finally on august fifteenth roosevelt or the coup. To begin as agreed. The shaw had signed the firmin's and colonel nasiri was sent to arrest motza deck. Once the operation was in motion. There was nothing roosevelt. Could do but wait. He retreated to his command center in the basement of the american embassy. As we mentioned in part one and informant told mosaic about the coup. Colonel ann assyrian. Men were arrested. And the shaw fled. Roosevelt watched helplessly from the american embassy as his plans crumbled around him. Many of his fellow conspirators were arrested or went into hiding pro mosaic supporters marched in the streets chanting their support for their prime minister despondent roosevelt his superiors in washington informing them of the coups failure and the eisenhower administration immediately tried to minimize the damage in official from the state department. Sent eisenhower a memo stating that. The united states had no choice but to quote snuggle up to mosaic and quote in the wake of the unsuccessful operations mess the sent a short message to roosevelt though. No copy of this note survived sources. Say it warned roosevelt that his life was in danger he should evacuate iran immediately but as politicians in washington accepted defeat. Roosevelt assess his options. Mozambique himself believe the shaw coordinated. The coup with the king fleeing the country. The prime minister assume the danger was over. He had no idea that the cia was involved or that kermit roosevelt even existed his defenses. Were down and roosevelt's still had resources like copies of the shaw's decrees thousands of dollars in funding and general zahedi. The element of surprise was on his side. Disregarding his orders from washington roosevelt instead drove through toronto to the apartment where zahedi was hiding. He asked the general if he was willing to try again. Zahedi agreed operation. Ajax was back in motion. But this time roosevelt was in complete control the rogue cia agent then smuggled zahedi to another safehouse and told him to reach out to his military contacts soon they would be needed to seize iran's capital then. Roosevelt returned to the american embassy. He believed that the only chance at overthrowing motza deck lay with the iranian people. They had to be mobilized against the prime minister and side with the now exiled shah. He had to sow chaos. Roosevelt used his connections to acquire a copy machine a rarity in nineteen fifty-three iran however unwieldy and difficult to operate he nonetheless procured one and headed delivered to the embassy after printing. Copy after copy of the shah's decrees. They were distributed to newspapers muslim clerics in people on the street by the next morning the firmin's were on the front page of every major newspaper. In the country. The public began to doubt motza. Dick story perhaps. There hadn't been a coup after all the whispers of disbelief that the prime minister disobeyed a direct order from the shaw grew louder. According to iran's ancient traditions royal power was sacred and not even the prime minister was above it. It was exactly the narrative. Roosevelt wanted them to believe soon. New mobs filled the already chaotic streets. Theron they claim to be mosaic supporters and communists but they left a path of destruction. The people of iran were enraged. Which was the point after all. These weren't really motza deck supporters at all. These rioters were hired by roosevelt's if iran slid into anarchy. He believed that the populace would welcome military intervention in order to cause maximum destruction. Roosevelt then filled the streets with paid pro shah protesters. These hired crowds attracted real supporters from both sides over the next three days brawls erupted in the streets but roosevelt became concerned mostly deck resort to the police to rein in the pro shop protesters who needed a new tactic. That was win. The american ambassador to iran approached in an offer to help. Roosevelt knew that mosaic was at heart who valued etiquette and courtesy. He decided to exploit that weakness. Roosevelt told the ambassador to alert the prime minister that americans in iran were being harassed by his supporters. The ambassador leapt at the opportunity. He met with mosaic and claimed that american citizens were under serious threat like having. Their cars vandalized in their homes attacked. But this was all a lie and mosaic fell for it poor fide for how this would be perceived internationally. He ordered the police into the streets to quell the violence and told all of his supporters to stand down. He would not tolerate these acts of aggression against guests. in iran. this ruse worked mosiac effectively disarmed himself on wednesday august nineteenth. Only the shaw supporters took to the streets. They yelled death to mosiac long. Live the shaw as they destroyed promos. A newspapers government buildings and the central police station then generals haiti activated his military contacts sending soldiers and tanks into tehran. Mosaics home was surrounded and attacked zahedi announced victory on radio. Tehran in the shaw was welcome back to iran operation. Ajax was success. The shaw returned in met with roosevelt. One last time before the cia agent left iran the victorious king raised his glass and said quote. I oh my throne to god my people my army and to you end quote in one thousand nine hundred seventy nine kermit. Roosevelt published a memoir about his time in iran titled counter coup. It followed his life from the beginning of his involvement with project. Ajax to the return of the shaw. Many critics believed it to be self-aggrandizing and in ballast several of the parties involved including the anglo iranian company which changed its name to british petroleum company limited in nineteen fifty four called the libellous behind the scenes. There was pressure on roosevelt's publisher to recall the book in reissue. A new version one that omitted key details about operation. Ajax it wasn't until the cia released their files in two thousand thirteen. That official support for kermit's narrative ballooned. He did in fact play a central role in the operation and was critical to its success well. Roosevelt story is spectacular to the point of being hard to believe at times official government. Files did verify it. The slight gap information about roosevelt's evacuate is the only thing that doesn't align perfectly for me. For that reason. I give conspiracy theory number two a nine out of ten. I'm more inclined to give this theory a ten out of ten. It's undeniable that roosevelt. Use the resources of the cia to overthrow mosaic and install the shaw as the undisputed leader of iran washington us the nineteen fifty-three coup as evidence that covert regime. Change could work. it would be emulated. In nations across the globe in the consequences would be felt for decades coming up the nineteen fifty three coup. Iran changes world politics forever. This episode is brought to you by fan duel. Sportsbook march mania. Is here. you could choose to be a bench warmer and watch from the sidelines or you could get in the game and try your hand at fan duel. Sportsbook shoot your shot on money. Lines point spreads parlays more. It's up to you how you play all tournament long fan duel is giving everyone a free shot at one million dollars bet on the bracket and get a chance to win the million dollar bonus pay-out plus when you sign up you can place your. I bet risk free up to one thousand dollars. There's always more ways to win on. Fan duel sportsbook. Download the app and use promo code upset to claim all these offers. That's promo code upset to get started on. Fan duel sportsbook. Twenty one plus in presence in virginia no purchase necessary for one million dollar promotion. I online real money wager. Only for one thousand dollars back refund issued as non withdraw beside credit that expires in fourteen days terms apply sportsbook fan duel dot com for terms and restrictions. Gambling problem. call one eight hundred gambler. This episode is brought to you by. Cvs health are you worried about mom or dad. Falling the symphony medical alert system by cvs health is designed to help make them safer at home. Symphony works with both active ation or care about users can opt to wear along with smart sensors for coverage around the home with twenty four seven. Emergency response a streamlined app. You can monitor your loved ones wellbeing for enhanced peace of mind terms and conditions apply. Learn more about symphony at cvs dot com slash symphony. Or find it at your nearest. Cvs health hub now back to the story in nineteen fifty-three cia officer kermit. Roosevelt masterminded a covert mission to overthrow. Iran's prime minister supposedly this plan operation. Ajax was to prevent the middle eastern country from falling under communist control. Thanks to roosevelt's connections and improvisations. The mission was a success. The shah of iran became a close ally of the united states. But in one thousand nine hundred seventy nine he was deposed. By the islamic revolution iran became a theocracy ruled by supreme religious leader. That's relations with america deteriorated some claim the seeds of this revolution were planted in nineteen fifty three which brings us to conspiracy theory number three operation ajax crush democracy in iran in created strife that has plagued the middle east for generations after the nineteen fifty. Three coup d'etat. The shaw ruled iran uncontested. Like his father. He had complete control over the country even his secret. Police known as which hunted down. His enemies were allegedly trained by cia operatives. The iranian people chafed under his rule and in one thousand seventy-nine iran was wracked by another coup. This time it was. The shaw who was the one deposed the populace instead rallied around a religious leader ruhollah khomeini he preached at iran was being destroyed by the shah and his western allies. The only way forward was a return to strict islamic rule. The shaw fled the country. As khomeini's followers filled the streets in raided military armories. The king hope that america and the cia would help him reclaim his throne like they did in nineteen fifty-three unfortunately for him. That wasn't the case. Khomeini consolidated his power and created a new government. The shaw died in exile. The islamic revolution of nineteen seventy-nine caught american leaders unprepared. They believed the. Shaw would be able to quell the unrest. More importantly they greatly underestimated the anti american sentiment in the country. Tensions came to a head on november. Fourth nineteen seventy-nine when thousands of iranian students assaulted the united states embassy. They took fifty. Two american citizens hostage held them in captivity for four hundred forty four days. The hostage takers cited their reason. For targeting the embassy it was where roosevelt ran operation. Ajax in one thousand nine hundred eighty three to them. The building symbolized america's meddling in iranian affairs. The hostage crisis became a cultural touchstone of modern iran. It was the first time that the country struck back against what they viewed as american aggression. After the islamic revolution iran's government became increasingly repressive. It rejected all american and western influence and is funded terrorist groups throughout the middle east. It remains hostile towards the united states diplomatically. But in his book. All the shah's men stephen kinzer states that the revolution of nineteen seventy nine and all of the tragedies since were preventable if the cia hadn't overthrown mosaic iran could be a beacon of democracy in the middle east today kinzer argues that most addict symbolized the moderate liberals of iran. The prime minister embraced political ideals. Values and institutions common in the west his movement to nationalize the oil industry may have been inspired by britain's own nationalization of industries. Ironically britain was trying to stop mosaic. From doing the very thing they done themselves by overthrowing motza deck. The cia destroyed the political party that saw america as an ally to be emulated instead it pushed ronnie and politics to the brink and poisoned. It's people america and the other hand though. Most ex government may have crumbled. Even without the cia's as interference. Dr ray tocchet an expert on iran and the middle east believes that operation ajax only succeeded because the iranian people wanted the prime minister. Gone to k- claims motza decks handling of the oil crisis decimated. The country's economy many iranians didn't support the prime minister's resolved to keep the british out of the oil industry. No matter the cost that was more than enough to making deeply lower. Furthermore mosaic dissolved parliament and ruled iran with emergency powers well before operation ajax began. It appeared that the country was no longer a democracy. He was a dictator while mozambique may reinstated parliament after the crisis passed. There's no way to be certain. How or if fair elections would have resumed mozambique's actions sparked anger in iran long before kermit roosevelt arrived on the scene and though the cia paid many iranians to protest in the streets thousands of regular people. Join them operation. Ajax didn't create the movement against moses deck instead at amplified the sentiment. That was already there. One piece of evidence that supports this view comes from kermit roosevelt himself after his success in iran the cia asked him to perform a similar mission in nineteen fifty four. He was to depose democratically elected leader of guatemala. But roosevelt top superiors that the mission would work. Unlike iran the guatemalan people weren't eager to get rid of their president. After roosevelt declined to lead the operation. The cia went forward with mission anyway. It had disastrous consequences. The eisenhower administration contended that operation. P. b. success prevented communism from taking root in guatemala. Cia director allen dulles considered it a success of democracy but thousands of guatemalans were killed in the chaotic aftermath. The cia's actions were universally condemned by other nations. Finally it's possible that if the hadn't launched a coup in iran another world power might have the two day communist party was extremely powerful in iran knows deck was able to keep them in check but soviet backing could have helped them overthrow the prime minister and install their own regime if iran and other countries in the middle east had sided with the soviet union. The outcome of the cold war could have changed entirely. There's no way to know for sure. What iran would look like today if operation ajax didn't take place. It's possible that mozambique would have won his battle. With britain oil wealth would flowed into iran. And it would have become a prosperous world. Power or mosaic would have been overthrown by his own people or a communist-backed coup. In either case the outcome for both iran and the world would be quite bleak. Indeed with the evidence we have. It seems likely that operation ajax did damage iran's political institutions. And it's people. I give conspiracy theory number three a seven out of ten. If the cia state out of iran it would have averted all the death and destruction that followed on the other hand. It's impossible to predict the future using hypotheticals. I give this theory five out of ten. The evidence we've laid out does make sense. But there's simply no way to know where mozambique's government would have ended up. It could have gone either way today. The c. as intervention in iran is considered a grave mistake. It violated the sovereignty of an american ally and pushed its government towards extremism critics of operation ajax claim that the deciding factor in the nineteen fifty-three coup was kermit roosevelt. And the cia. In this version of events the iranian people were used as pawns but the reality is not black and white placing full responsibility for the coup on the cia discounts. The will of the iranian people themsevles kermit. Roosevelt may have lifted the curtain but the stage was set long before him. Thanks for tuning into conspiracy theories. We'll be back next time with a new episode of the many sources we used. We found all the shah's men by stephen kinzer to be the most helpful in our research. You can find all episodes of conspiracy theories and all other spotify original from podcast for free on spotify until then remember. The truth isn't always the best story and the official story isn't always the truth. Theories is a spotify original from podcast. It is executive produced by max cutler. Sound design by. Dick schroeder with production assistance by ron shapiro carly madden and travis clark. This episode of conspiracy. Theories was written by evan. Mcgahey with writing assistance by nicholas wart in mackenzie more fact checking by bennett logan in research by bradley klein conspiracy theories stars molly. Brandenburg and carter roy.

iran cia roosevelt Roosevelt shaw america kermit roosevelt britain soviet union zahedi eisenhower administration Truman kinser american embassy firmin washington tehran Iran mozambique Eisenhower
Four Days In August

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38:53 min | 1 year ago

Four Days In August

"Hey it's from team here and so like many of you we've been watching the recent tensions between the U._S. and Iran escalate and we've been thinking a lot about the origins of this incredibly complex issue so we wanted wants to spend the next two weeks exploring that history this week will revisit our first episode the story of how the U._S. overthrew Iran's democratic prime minister in Nineteen fifty three then next week. We're going to share a new episode focusing living on the last forty years of hostilities between the U._S. and Iran all right here. It is the first in our Iran series four days in August August fifteen team one thousand nine hundred fifty three shortly before midnight and Tehran Iran's capital city. The air was thick with anticipation. Something big was about to happen. The elected Prime Minister of Iran Bahamas Adele was sitting at home waiting. He knew something was coming and he had no idea still be prime minister by morning so with each tick tick tick of the clock he knew that the future of Iran with at stake one truck loan home of presidential guard soldiers. We're going to most of the house the midnight their mission was simple. Go to Moscow decks house in the middle of the night knock on the door telomeres fired most of them protests undoubtedly say you can't fire me. I'm elected and at that point you would arrest him. mm-hmm that failed because most had found out about the arrest news leaked out then <hes> there was a bit of panic among the army that was supposed to come out and support the arrest of Losada the phone lines were supposed to be caught. They were not cod so there were a number of missteps that took place and when the soldiers arrived at most ex house to arrest him other soldiers jumped out of the woods arrested those this guy's multidex forces had foiled a coup attempt he would stay prime minister but little did he know that night was just the beginning of a much bigger battle to come and it would change the future of Iran and American and ran the British Haiti arrived in Cairo out of new testimony. Three days of bloody jury has released on that show. It's three you're listening to through line where we go back in time to understand the present I ron teen. You were born in Iran and you've spent a bunch of time there so I'm curious. How much had you heard about this? American coup growing up a definitely heard stuff about it especially for my father Father <hes> who would remind you all the time like the only reason we're here in the U._S. is because what the U._S. did to our democracy in nineteen fifty-three right and I would always just kind of brush it off like whatever that could have happened. This is Iranian conspiracy theory stuff right but as I grew up I realized the U._S.. Actually did interfere Iran's politics nineteen fifty-three. Let me honest like I didn't have much of an idea about this going into the episode and it's like a a really big shocking thing to not have much of an idea about <hes> because I always thought that nineteen seventy nine was the real pivotal moment ray that the Iranian revolution happened that year and the hostage crisis at the American embassy. Those were the things that really set the tone for like this very tense relationship between the U._S.. Anyone yeah I mean that makes sense like why would you or any other American differently right because nineteen seventy-nine was such an important year but nineteen fifty three is really when it all goes down. Doesn't it sucked they hear dad was right it. It really does okay. I want to get into it. It's a great story so we're going to take you back to that pivotal moment more than sixty five years ago to understand what happened during the coup while the U._S. made that decision and how this event redefined the U._S._A.. Ron Relationship and changed the world. This message comes from N._P._R.. Sponsor N._C._R.. CR Let's face it as a small business owner. You wear so many hats every day. You rarely have time to focus on activities that drive profitability or bring in new customers. That's why you need a point of sale that does more N._C._R.. Silver delivers simple all to understand analysis and business building tools like email marketing and loyalty so you can get back to focusing on your customers N._C._R.. Silver Visit N._C._R.. Dot Com slash silver next time on rough translation the feeling feeling you get when you quit your job and try to start something new you allusive you. You're worthless. An entrepreneur from Mexico faces down that taboo and accidentally launches a global community that celebrates stories of failure mistakes making was part of my journey travel with rough translation from N._p._R.. Listen and subscribe. They Call You Lady Luck August Sixteenth Nineteen fifty-three at times. You have a very unladylike running hooks early morning August sixteenth nineteen fifty-three American agents were hiding out in a safe house <music> at a secret location in Tehran listening to this song luck be a lady tonight lady to night they were waiting to hear whether the coup engineered had worked and and the move was electric use blasting booze flowing. Everyone's celebrating a job well done now remember. This is nineteen fifty three so there were no breaking news alerts no email no good way to deliver information fast so as far as these guys knew. You the coup had gone off without a hitch and there was one guy who was especially happy. Kermit Roosevelt so kermit Roosevelt was chief of the CIA Nerius and Africa Division and like many of the figures in the early CIA he had been born into privilege gone to Ivy League schools. His grandfather had been Theodore Roosevelt distant relative of F._d._R.. As well he was called in the to help facilitate this transition so on July nineteenth nineteen fifty-three kermit Roosevelt crossed over into Iran. This is Stephen Kinzer. He wrote a groundbreaking book on this coup called all the Shah's men and sent them back can't hear me hello research fellow at Charterhouse London where she leads the Iran Forum Project and they were our guides through this story okay so kermit Roosevelt entered Iran on July nineteenth with <unk> a pretty big mission ahead of him stage coup to get rid of Iran's prime minister. We'll have met most of them and we'll explain why in a bit but the first question rose about how to answer I've asked myself this question was how so you're sent into a Foreign Marin country and your assignment is overthrow the government. What do you do like what do you do on the first day nine o'clock you get to the office? How do you start even though the C._I._A.? Had devised a plan for Roosevelt. No one was sure it would actually work. It was suddenly only up to Roosevelt to destabilize a whole country step one seize control of the Iranian press basically buy them off with bribes turned out that the press was quite corrupt and soon enough Roosevelt had columnists editors and reporters from most of Iran's newspapers on his payroll then Anti Mossadeq propaganda began printing everywhere plus it was Ju- homosexual a British agent anything that they thought would what outrage people there was such an appetite for these stories that Iranian journalists just couldn't keep up so roosevelt had to recruit the AIDS back in Washington to write some articles for Iranian press in fact one of them later wrote a memoir and he talked about how bizarre it was at the CIA. You had the people plotting the Iran coup and then you had analysts on the other side of word aware the covert action and he said I would write an article about how muster deck was an atheist and he he hated God and then a couple of days later a guy from the other side of the Hall Analysis Division would run over to my office holding up an Iranian newspaper and saying wow you won't believe how they newspapers in Iran or denouncing most look what this article and I couldn't tell I wrote that article step to recruit allies on the ground most importantly the Islamic clergy or Mullah's who held a lot of power in Iran Kermit Roosevelt made strategic payments a number of important Mulas <hes> in exchange for them delivering sermons denouncing most deck from the pulpit as against God and irreligious step three get Iran's king the Shaw onboard and convince the Iranian Shaw Muhammad Raza Pas de that must have a threat. This part took some persuading though yeah because in theory at least the Shah and the prime minister were meant to work together but there was a lot of tension between them because for decades Iran's parliament and Shaw had a tough time sharing power it would be a big deal for the shod help overthrow the Prime Minister but Roosevelt's on opening to turn them against each other that included bribing the shot sister in exchange for help convincing the Shah to assigned and their reports that a fur coat was even part of the deal that tactic failed eventually Roosevelt took matters into his own hands and began meeting with the Shah. Almost every day had midnight in a taxi cab always in a different location during the late night meetings Roosevelt managed to convince the Shah that Mussa was at threat and so the Shah agreed to the coup and finally step for go to Mosul does house in the middle of the night arrest him and consolidate power in the hands of the Shah who was more friendly towards the West Than Mosad. Ill but remember the coup attempt failed at this point. You're probably wondering why the U._S.. Went to all this trouble sending Roosevelt Tehran having him stirrup chaos in the country and ultimately aint trying to carry out a coup. Why were they so hell bent on getting out of power will the truth is the U._S. was dragged into the situation by Great Britain all because of one thing the world oil supply and nationalist feeling ran hi against Britain and the Western celebrity we sometimes say the countries are blessed with resources but sometimes resources can be a curse particularly? If you're a country that's week because there are always strong countries that Wanna come and take what you have and Iran was cursed with a lot of oil oil was discovered there in one thousand nine hundred eight and almost immediately Great Britain took an interest and at that time Britain was the world's biggest superpower so they decided to strike a deal with the Iranian Shah and they needed a lot voile. This deal between the British and Iran was completely one sided <hes> Great Britain was taking well over eighty percent of the revenues while Iran was receiving about ten to twelve percent of the revenues from its natural resource way a deal like that makes no sense though why did Iran agree to that well yeah. It makes no sense unless you're in desperate need of money on Iran's Government in the early twentieth century was desperate Iran during the early part of the twentieth century was still ruled by the old codger Royal Dynasty so as a very corrupt dynasty and it supported itself by selling off anything of value in Iran they sold off the transportation industry st the tobacco industry the Caviar fisheries they even sold off the country's treasury and banking industries. It was basically a free for all and the British were first in line oil was by far their most valuable acquisition and here's a fun fact the company that controlled all of that oil was originally called the Anglo Persian oil company which would later become every day the U._p.. Supplies the few that start the rich Shirley so this was obviously very lucrative. Credit for them very lucrative and during World War One and two Iranian oil pump life into the British war effort so it was absolutely essential to Britain's future okay this all really helps explain the next part of the story right because before he's even prime minister her Muhammed Maseri del gotta work lobbying against this unfair oil deal hoping to get a better deal for Iran he tried to negotiate a new deal with the British that would allow Iran to keep a bigger share of the prophets which share freaked out the British and when negotiations broke down down the British imposed the worldwide embargo on Iranian oil eventually in one thousand nine hundred eighty one Mossad convinced the Iranian parliament to nationalize Iran's oil and a month later he was elected prime minister which really sent the British through the roof grammy are most of the oil nationalization programme took his case to the United Nations where they remained adamant in Sudan British decided the only solution was to get rid of Mossad there and put in a more favorable government and most idea sensing the British up to something shut shut down their embassies in Iran and here's where I'm assuming the U._S.. Enters the picture I right so they called the Americans for help and President Truman said no not going to do it. He actually really sent a a mediator to Iran. He had most that come to Washington to try to persuade him but when nothing worked he essentially told the British. There's nothing you can do. You're going to have to swallow us like we had to swallow Mexico nationalizing. Its oil industry in the thirties ladies. We didn't like it. You just going to have to live with this but the following year Dwight Eisenhower became president and his thinking was a little different. Suddenly you don't have an American president who forbids military action but on the contrary you have a new new team. That's eager to show that it's going to roll back threats to the United States and that played right into the British hands plus. This was right around the time of the Cold War was heating up and Iran happened to share border with the Soviet Union. So what can he do to show that he's fighting communists while you can't bomb Moscow. He's not going to invade China. You can't go after the real enemy. It's not possible so you have to go after somebody else. Iran on also in this period and I think it's important dimension. There was a communist party known as the today that <hes> was active in parliament was supporting Masada. Even though by all accounts was that there was is not a communist himself the U._S. was still on high alert so all these factors. Hey the British want US eventually convinced the U._S._C. Musset deck is threatening the world it can get on board with Britain's Plan C.. Were desperate for victory to stage a coup and overthrow Iran's prime minister while how mad will sat there. This evening is all they give me the brush you much six A._M.. In the morning after the coup attempt jumped Roosevelt and his men tired from a night of partying tuned into the radio but all they heard was silence and Roosevelt knew something had gone wrong then suddenly the radio crackled on military music started playing announce victory over an attempted coup could record all notice that the shah was nowhere to be found and immediately immediately suspected that the shaw was behind the coup attempt meanwhile the shot new this might happen and fearing most Adele would come after him hopped on his private plane and flew to Baghdad and from there he went on to Rome where he told reporters. I'm probably going to have to look for work now because obviously never going to be able to go back to Iran so to recap at the end of day to the Shah had left Iran most adept that was still in power with no idea that the U._S. was behind the coup attempt and Roosevelt had failed but even though his bosses back in Washington told him he could go home after the coup failed Kermit Roosevelt was not willing to give up that easily <music> came a little bit from the old C._I._A.. can-do mentality the also sensed how weak the Iranian political establishment was he thought he still had assets that he hadn't used Must Adele. It wasn't out of the woods just yet kermit Roosevelt had not given up and with actually having a plan B aw support for N._p._R.. And the following message come from the Platinum Card from American Express conversations and civil debate in our society push us forward and connect us with the rest of the world with the Platinum Card Burns five times membership rewards points on flights booked directly with airlines or with American Express travel. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Don't live life without it. Visit American Express Dot com slash explore platinum terms apply to get the true story of what happened. Jim Reeve and Selma Alabama. We tracked down witnesses. We identified the attackers. We untangled the history from the mythology but once you've called ally ally what does it mean to live with the truth <music> from N._p._R.. This is white lies you can bench all seven episodes right now. August Seventeenth Nineteen fifty-three <music> a couple days after the failed coup attempt crowds of supporters packed the streets chanting the words most Adele has one and victories have the nation. It seemed like the worst was behind Mosa death. He survived a coup attempt and lived to tell the tale tail but this was the calm before the store backroom dealings were happening out of sight and the threat to most adept was still very real and we'll get to that but during this momentary calm you want to give you some insight into the man who was at the center of this whole thing the man the U._S. and Britain were terrified Mademoiselle. Do you get the feeling that this is a kind fatherly person who cares about the people and he's very respectful of people he talks to. The people would respect for the first time that Iranian politician would advise them as dear fellow citizen. This is Dr Ibrahim neuropathy a retired physician Dr nor is he was born in nineteen forty two in a town in Iran call Qazvin and he's the most ideal superfan he even create a website to honor him Dr Nor was he became very interested in politics from a young age. I have no idea exactly why because we didn't even have radio. They do and our house when I was a kid when I was in elementary school. Maybe I was tiny and I was bullied a lot. Maybe it so I wanted to some sort of justice in the world Dr Nor is he like a lot of Iranians sees most kind of a national title hero sort of Gandhi for Iran. He's really become a mythical figure but to really understand what's that we have to find the man behind the myth so Muhammad most the deck was an Iranian aristocrat again Stephen Kinzer his father had been finance minister for decades under the codger regime. His mother was a princess he held various positions at Sun Mbeki Minister of Foreign Affairs Minister Finance elected twice is to the Iranian parliament he went off to be educated in Europe he came home and began campaigning against the agreement by which the British were trying to subjugate Iran <music> and became quite outraged at the injustices he saw around and must adapt was known to be very dramatic. <hes> there are these anecdotes <hes> where he used to receive visitors in his bed in his pajamas for example most of the was a pretty eccentric guy prone to outbursts and dramatic speeches where he would cry even pass out and the U._S. and Britain saw him as kind of erotic and unreliable difficult to negotiate with even if he was a fan of democratic ideas very much believed in the democratic ideals on checks and balances that were necessary to curtail monarchical power at the time and he came of age during a time. Where are these changes also influence the political system? The biggest political change you witnessed happened when was Adele was in his twenty s between nineteen o five and nineteen eleven Iran went through a constitutional revolution. This was a remarkable moment in middle Middle Eastern history and in the history of the developing world Iran developed a constitution in nineteen. Oh six there are countries in the Middle East that don't even have a constitution today. The revolution sought to make your on more democratic with things like parliament constitution and a free press rest for centuries country been ruled by Shahs Kings with power passing fathers sons for by the turn of the twentieth century as it turn of the twentieth century the corrupt irresponsible business dealings of the Shah's which driving the Iranian economy straight into the ground which made the Shah's really unpopular among the people and this wasn't like normal corruption. We're talking crazy. Excessive spending one Shah had a Harem of sixteen hundred people sixteen hundred one six zero zero and he and his many many sons would use the national treasury as their personal piggy bank taking money out whenever you know they wanted to travel around Europe he also demanded that people call him. One of the following Hymns Schaal has shot Shove Shaw's Audio Mitch Salam of the universe at doc on subdural climate only Jeff Gordon of the flocks so you thought that route is seeming or shadow of God on Earth. I could see wanting to become guardian a black shadow of God on there. I personally like subdural climate. I don't know but it just feels like right. Now you're right anyway. Point is the shots were out of control and the Constitutional Revolution United People across Iran against against the Shah in favor of a more representative government a coalition. If you will of intellectuals people from the bazaar the clergy coalition stood up to the monarchy violence broke out and one of the most interesting stories that came across from team that I don't think I've told you about yet was the story of this American guy who actually fought any ron's constitutional revolution what really yeah his name was Howard. Basket will Howard Baskerville. Who Was it graduate of Princeton University versity Seminary School Baskerville has an American missionary and in this period there was a lot of missionary activity coming from the United States they would support education in various countries throughout the Middle East became too alone on him identified with the applied and basketball and wanted to go and fight on the side of the constitutionalists exactly but the U._S. representative in Iran begged Baskerville not join the fight he came to him and yelled at him? No you can't do that. You know you shouldn't get involved. You're in civil war of other countries. You come here to help you know well. He wouldn't listen and then he threatened him that if you go and involve yourself in the war I take away. Your Password is okay. This is my password. He toured that him he said No. I just because I was born in America. That doesn't mean I'm better than them. I'm like then I'm going to fight for them for their cause and this is good 'cause unfortunately he dies just the first hour of a battle him and by the way basket will his sculpture was installed in computational hall in Tabriz and his tomb is like a worship place so Iranian extrapolated rated these missionaries action to America as a government. So what I'm saying is that American left a very good impression in Iran Iran has loved it. I had never heard of the Sky Howard Baskerville Bill. Neither had I before this. I mean it's really wild to think that this guy would have laid down his life for Iran's constitutional revolution like think about it. How many Americans at that time even new way round was let alone? Go over there and fight. And it's interesting because at that time Brennan the Shah were the bad guys but America was kind of an ally in their fight exactly until they got him both days after the coup attempt however all that seemed into matter was that most identify as a man of the people and that he was still in power but out of sight a new plot against Mossad deaf was brewing Kermit Roosevelt Plan B <music> you support for this podcast and the following message come from Delta Delta Flyers two or three hundred cities around the world. That's three hundred cities where people in those three hundred cities think they're the only ones who know oh about that one place and three hundred cities where people miss someone in one of Delta's other two hundred ninety nine cities Delta is in flying at three hundred cities merely to bring people together but to show that we're not that far apart in the first place Delta keep climbing thanking nineteen fifty-three attention is focused once again on the Middle East where in Iran I've taken a dramatic double twist during the three days days after the shot flat and Roosevelt's coup attempt failed Roosevelt set the state for his second coup attempt and on August nineteenth it began hundreds and hundreds of rioters filled the streets of Tehran and in a word it was chaos the three hundred killed and hundreds wounded seventy advanced him and his plan was this first of all higher gangs of Iranians through people who controlled criminal protection rackets and pay them to go out on the street and cause chaos so roosevelt actually paid criminals and gang members to storm into the city beat up people in the streets break shop windows shoot your guns into mosques and while doing all that yeah we love most the deck we love Communism and then he hired a second mob to attack the first month which led to bloody violent clashes between the two mobs and the really tricky thing was that everybody involved everybody involved often battles was being paid to be there but what they did was they were being paid by the same source the C._I._A.. And all of this was designed to create confusion as to signal that most was the source of the violence in the country that he was losing control which which is becoming more and more true most deck refused to send the police out because he said well. They're peaceful. Demonstrators people should be allowed to say what they want. He truly was too naive to grasp what was happening and this brings us to the final part I plan to get rid of doubt once and for all Roosevelt ordered both mobs to head to most of those house so a giant crowd surrounded most decks house shouting insults and throwing stones in Ho should show up but <hes> several police and military commanders including a couple with tanks people who kermit Roosevelt had bribed to participant those officers began opening fire on that's house while inside most data and a few of his closest advisors huddled together tells them I WanNa die here in house but somehow they managed to drag him out of back window. They got him over a fence. He fled the house was looted and immediately there. After kermit Roosevelt went to get his savior general who he'd been hiding in a safehouse brought the guy to a radio station and the guy proclaimed himself as the new leader so this guy the general thought he was putting power as a placeholder until the Shah who remember had fled to Rome could be turned was that that eventually turned himself in and just like that with a couple of chess moves criminal Roosevelt's plant assured Tehran into a new era Shar who had fled to Rome comes home back by generals I hit military strongman who engineered is returned to power everything was the Shah was was not which isn't really surprising given the corruption of the Shah's the Shaw then ruled over Iran like a dictator for twenty five years and the Western powers including the U._S. didn't really care because you give them easy access to Iran's oil during during that time the Shah did everything in his power to get rid of any trace of the most adult era massad. Duke's name was banned again Dr Nauru's E. You don't hear anything Mossadegh. After the coup I was that was the time I was actually in high school. I don't remember anything you know much Masada the coup they were off limits things that the Iranian government wanted people to forget under these conditions must adopt became a sort of legend. A symbol of Iran's loss potential the the C._I._A.. Only officially acknowledged its role in the coup in twenty thirteen sixty years later in case. You're wondering what happened to muscle so he turned himself in in the quick shift of Power Mazda Deck was finally apprehended and awaits trial and it was placed on trial who was convicted of treason and sentenced to a prison term followed by life under house arrest a couple of his closest advisors were executed. There were hundreds of other executions of people who are suspected to be disloyal in the military and Masa deck remained almost taboo figure almost for the rest of his life as for Kermit Roosevelt Kermit Roosevelt stayed in Tehran to wait for the shot to come back from Rome and then arranged a farewell meeting with the Shah before leaving Iran the Shah greeted him with a toast and he said I oh my throne to God Mike People and you he was right although he might not be the right order so kermit Roosevelt went home and of course he was welcomed jubilantly back in Washington as kind of a conquering hero. <hes> he went on to more years at the CIA then later be left became an oil consultant Owen speaking of oil the holy grail of resources that started this whole thing as you might expect Iranian still ended up with a pretty bad deal bill after the coup was said and done may again blow westward given all this resentment resentment built up against the shah declared martial law in most of Iran in nineteen seventy nine Iranians reached a breaking point and revolted against the Shah shouted death to the show the Shah fled Iran and the clergy thirty assume control the country that same year a hostage crisis unfolded at the American Embassy C._B._S.. News Young Iranians described as students acting with the blessing of Ayatollah Khomeini Amini have occupied the American embassy in thirty days of unsuccessfully trying to get the American hostages out of Iran. The government of the United States is now trying to get the deposed shaw ran out of this country and there is no sign tonight that either problem is likely resolved so in nineteen seventeen nine the nineteen fifty-three coup was invoked as justification for <hes> seizing the American Embassy. The argument was at a time that these diplomats these American diplomats inside the embassy whereabout to do what Americans had done in Iran overthrowing Mossadegh and restoring Shaw and they were about to do the same thing and therefore <hes> they justified to the public quite. I needed to shut the MRI down. This is Royal Hicken. She writes a lot about this time in Iran's history and the subject is deeply personal for her a someone who was born and raised in Iran during the tumultuous years of the Iranian Revolution and its aftermath and Roya challenged everything. We thought we knew about this story because up until now we thought the basic story was this pre nineteen fifty-three U._S. and Iran are pretty chill. Bryn is the bad guy nineteen fifty. Three coup happens the U._S.. Installs a dictator in Iran and eventually the people respond with a revolution and hostage crisis and the U._S. and Iran become mortal enemies so that is the narrative that was presented at the time <hes> it was wrong for the U._S. to intervene but at the same time this isn't a whole story and tells only a very small part of why Iran has been stuck in this place for so long funk Roya says that narrative. Let's one group off the hook way too easily. Iran's clergy a piece. That's missing from the way this narrative has been told is the fact that Kermit Roosevelt this is is very wisely obviously to go pay visit to the Grand Ayatollah Barani Tehran and you know history changes course after he does that so remember when Roosevelt got help from the Mola's to carry out his plan B. After that first risk who attempt failed well Roy things that moment was the real game changer she says Iran's clergy has been conspiring behind the scenes for a long time to oppose democracy in Iran. She says they saw chance to undermine democracy in nineteen eighteen fifty three and then in nineteen seventy nine when it seemed like democracy would be the result of the revolution they saw another opportunity to take power and they did this. All enveloping was ideals name Yes yes it's really truly ironic because by nineteen seventy-nine must identify long debt but his legacy is not so while he himself was completely axed by the clerical powers at the time his narrative his lesi became came very useful to the regime in other words. It's a mistake to put all the blame for Iran's problems on the U._S.. Intervention in nineteen fifty three that the Iranian clergy have played a part too. I hear what Roy saying Iran's runs. Mullah's have definitely a number in the country and there's plenty of blame to go around between the U._S. and Iran especially since nineteen seventy nine and there's a long list of of back and forth grievances that have added to and fuelled fueled tension but you can still make the argument that the original sin of the U._S.. Iran relationship was what happened in August nineteen fifty three and that that set the tone for everything to fall <music> in the United States u s Iran relations begin and end with the hostage crisis. That's the moment that is the key turning point in the source of everything from the Iranian alien perspective things are very different Iranian and American perceptions. They're like parallel train tracks. Just keep running parallel they they never coincide <music>. That's this week show. I run out of blue. I'm random data and you've been listening to light from N._P._R.. Stay tuned for next week's all new episode. You'd part two of the Iran U._S.. Sada the show was produced by me and me and Jamie York Jared Anna Hopman Lawrence we'll Yoyo Michelle Lance leising Nigeri eaten but you also to Larry Cap low for his editing help and Greta pitting her for her help backtracking. I music was composed by Ramtane and his band drop electric. Thanks also to on your gunman. Larry Tableau Mattel P._R.. and Greta pitting also nodded Arab Louis Rantings Dad who helped us out with some translations relations and let's keep the conversation going if you have an idea or thoughts on the episode hit us up on twitter at do lie N._p._R.. Or send an email to through line at m._p._R.. Dot Org. If you like the show. Please leave us a review on itunes and tell all your friends to subscribe <music>.

Iran Kermit Roosevelt Shah Prime Minister Iran Bahamas Adele Tehran United States Washington Shove Shaw Britain Theodore Roosevelt Adele Moscow Iranian parliament Middle East Stephen Kinzer Mexico Iranian Shah Shaw Muhammad Raza Pas
Four Days in August

Throughline

38:09 min | 2 years ago

Four Days in August

"August fifteenth nineteen fifty three. Shortly before midnight, and Tehran Iran's capital city. The air was thick with anticipation something big was about to happen. The elected prime minister, Iran Bahamas, Adele was sitting at home waiting. He knew something was coming. And he had no idea still be prime minister by morning. So with each tick tick tick of the clock, he knew that the future of Iran with at stake. One truck long of presidential guard soldiers we're going to Musset ex house midnight. Their mission was simple to house in the middle of the night, knock on the door telomeres fired most of them protests, undoubtedly say, you can't fire me on elected. And at that point you arrest him that failed because most had found out about the arrest. News of it leaked out. Then there was a bit of panic among the army that was supposed to come out and support the arrest of Los Adam. The phone lines were supposed to be cut. They were not cod. So there were a number of missteps that took place and when the soldiers arrived at most of the house to arrest him other soldiers jumped out of the woods arrested, those guys most deaths forces had foiled a coup attempt. He would stay prime minister, but little Dino that night was just the beginning of a much bigger battle to come. And it would change the future of Iran and America. British hating brim of Masa day arrive in Cairo them. Yeah. Most of the testimony three days of bloody demento. Hi, now has released documents that show is. Eighteen fifty three. You're listening to through line where we go back in time to understand the present. Hey, I'm Tina Louis. I'm Rhonda and welcome to the first episode of through line. I'm not gonna lie. I'm still a little bit shocked to show. Here, but we're really excited and really glad that you decided to join us for this ride because Romney ni- have been talking about this for a while like a lot of you where news junkies, and we were just pretty frustrated with the lack of historical context around a lot of the headlines we were reading and we end up in these wicker pedia wormholes trying to figure out the history behind things. So we wanted to create a show where you listeners and us could go on this journey every single week and become better informed about the world around us and do it in a way that wasn't boring. Exactly. So in this first episode, we're going to take you to Iran and the story of four days in nineteen fifty three. I Ron team you were born Iran, and you've spent a bunch of time there. So I'm curious how much had you heard about this American coup growing up? A definitely heard stuff about it. Especially for my father who would remind you all the time. Like, the only reason we're here in the US because what the US did to our democracy in nineteen fifty three. Right. And I would always just kind of brush it off like whatever that could have happened. This is running conspiracy theory stuff. Right. But as I grew up, I realized the US actually did interfere Iran's politics nineteen Fifty-three. Let me honestly, I didn't have much of an idea about this going into the episode, and it's like a a really big shocking thing to not have much idea about because I always thought that nineteen Seventy-nine was the real piddle moment rating that the Iranian revolution happened that year and the Husted crisis at the American embassy, those were the things that really set the tone for like this very tense relationship between the US any run the I mean that makes sense. Like, why would you? You or any other American differently right because nineteen Seventy-nine was such an important year. But nineteen fifty three is really when it all goes down. Doesn't it suck here? Dad was right. Yeah. It really does. Okay. I wanna get into it. It's a great story. So we're going to take you back to that pivotal moment. More than sixty five years ago to understand what happened during the coup while the US made that decision and how this event redefined the US, Iran relationship and change the world. Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from discover who believes innovation and good ideas can come from anywhere. Discover is one of the pioneers in giving people cash back on their purchases. And now, they're edit again at the end of your first year as a new cardmember, they'll match all the cash back you've earned dollar for dollar with no caps and no catch because the scar believes in taking a good idea and making it even better check it out at discover dot com slash match. Cash back match offer only for new card members. Limitations apply. All you, lady luck. August sixteenth nineteen fifty three. At times, you have a very unladylike. Running. Early morning. August sixteenth nineteen Fifty-three American agents were hiding out in a safe house at a secret location in Tehran listening to this song. Luck be lady tonight. They were waiting to hear what the Kudia engineered had worked and the move was electric using blasting booze flowing everyone's celebrating a job well done. Now. Remember, this is nineteen fifty three. So there were no breaking news alerts. No email. No good way to deliver information fast. So as far as these guys knew the coup had gone off without a hitch. And there was one guy who was especially happy Kermit Roosevelt. So Kermit Roosevelt was chief of the CIA Nerius and Africa division like many of the figures in the early CI. He had been born into privilege gone to league schools. His grandfather had been Theodore Roosevelt distant relative of DR as well. He was called in to help facilitate this transition so on July nineteenth nineteen Fifty-three Kermit Roosevelt crossed over into Iran. This is Stephen Kinzer. He wrote a groundbreaking book on this coup called all the Shah's men and son them back. Research fellow at Chatham house in London where she leads Iran forum project, and they were guides through this story. Okay. So Kermit Roosevelt entered Iran on July nineteenth with a pretty big mission ahead of him say Juku to get rid of Iran's prime minister Muhammad Muslim, and we'll explain why in a bit. But the first question rose about how to answer myself. This question was how so you're sent into a foreign country and your assignment is overthrow the government. What do you do? What do you do on the first day nine o'clock you get to the office? How do you start even though the CIA had devise a plan for about? No, one was sure it would actually work. It was suddenly up to Roosevelt to destabilize a whole country. Step one sees control of the Iranian press. Basically buy them off with bribes turned out that the press was quite corrupt and food enough. Roosevelt had columnists editors and reporters from most of Iran's newspapers on his payroll, then anti propaganda began. Printing, everywhere was it was a Jew homosexual, a British agent anything that they thought would would outrage people. There was such an appetite for these stories that he running journalists just couldn't keep up so Roosevelt had to recruit the aid back in Washington to write some of the articles for the Iranian press. In fact, one of them later wrote a memoir, and he talked about how bizarre it was at the CIA, you had the people plotting the Iran coup, and then you had analysts on the other side of word aware the covert action. And he said, I would write an article about how muster deck was an atheist and he hated God. And then a couple of days. As later a guy from the other side of the hall in the analysis division would run over to my office holding up an Iranian newspaper and saying, wow, you won't believe how the newspapers in Iran or denouncing most look what this article, and I couldn't tell him. I wrote that article. Step to recruit allies on the ground. Most importantly, these Lama clergy or Mola's who held a lot of power in Iran. Kermit Roosevelt made strategic payments to a number of important Mola's in exchange for them delivering sermons denouncing most deck from the pulpit as against God. And irreligious step three get Iran's king the Shaw onboard and convince the Iranian Shah Mohammad res- upon the that must have that was a threat this part took some persuading though. Yeah. Because in theory, at least the Shah and the prime minister were meant to work together. But there was a lot of tension between them because for decades Iran's parliament in Shaw had a tough time sharing power. It would be a big deal for the shot to help overthrow the prime minister. But Roosevelt's on opening to turn them against each other. That included bribing the shot sister in exchange for help convincing the shot to sign on and their reports that a for cope was. Even part of the deal, but that tactic failed. Eventually Roosevelt took matters into his own hands and began meeting with the Shaw almost every day had midnight in the taxicab always in a different location during these late night meetings Roosevelt managed to convince the Shah that Mosa was at threat. And so the Shah agreed to the coup and finally step four go to most does house in the middle of the night arrest him and consolidate power in the hands of the Shah who was more friendly towards the west than most del but remember the coup attempt failed at this point. You're probably wondering why the US went to all this trouble, sending Roosevelt Iran having him stir up chaos in the country and ultimately trying to carry out a coup. Why were they so hell bent on getting most out of power will the truth is the US was dragged into the situation by Great Britain? All because of one thing the world oil supply and nationalist feeling ran lie Britain and the western democracy. We sometimes say the countries. Are blessed with resources, but sometimes resources can be a curse, particularly if you're a country that's week because they're always strong countries. That wanna come and take what you have an Iran was cursed with a lot of oil oil was discovered there in nineteen o eight and almost immediately Great Britain took an interest. And at that time Britain was the world's biggest superpower. So they decided to strike a deal with the Iranian Shaw. And they needed a lot of oil this deal between the British any run. I was completely one sided Great Britain was taking well over eighty percent of the revenues while Iran was receiving about ten to twelve percent of the revenues from its natural resource way deal. Like that makes no sense though. Why did he Ron agreed to that will? Yeah. It makes no sense. Unless you're in desperate need of money and Iran's government in the early twentieth. Century was desperate Iran during the early part of the twentieth. Century was still ruled by the old codger jar. Royal dynasty was a very corrupt dynasty and it supported itself by selling off anything of value in Iran. They sold off the transportation industry the tobacco industry the caviar fisheries. They even sold off the country's treasure and banking industries. It was basically a free for all. And the British were first in line oil was by far the most valuable acquisition. And here's a fun. Fact, the company that controlled all of that oil was originally called the Anglo Persian oil company, which would later become everyday supplies. The few pecans that start the how rich Shirley. So this was obviously very lucrative for them very lucrative and during World War One and two Iranian oil pump life into the British war effort. So it was absolutely essential to Britain's future. Okay. This all really helps. Explain the next part of the story. Right. Because before he's even prime minister, Mohammad Mosa del got to work lobbying against this unfair oil deal hoping to get a better deal for Iran. He tried to negotiate a new deal with the British that would allow Iran to keep a bigger share of the profits, which share freaked out the British. And when the Goshi nations broke down the British imposed a worldwide embargo on Iranian oil, eventually in nineteen fifty one most convinced the Iranian parliament to nationalize Iran's oil and a month later, he was elected prime minister, which really center British through the roof. Mosaic handle the oil nationalization programme took his case to the United Nations where they remained adamant in the British decided only solution was to get rid of most idea and put in a more. Favorable government and most they're sensing the British were up to something shut down their embassy in Iran. And here's where I'm assuming the US enters the picture, right? Right. So they called the Americans for health and president Truman said no not going to do it. He actually sent a a mediator to Iran. He had most debt come to Washington to try to persuade him. But when nothing work he essentially told the British there's nothing you can do you're gonna have to swallow us like we had to swallow Mexico nationalizing its oil industry thirties. We didn't like it. You just gonna have to live with this. But the following year. Dwight Eisenhower became president and his thinking was a little different. Suddenly, you don't have an American president who forbids military action. But on the contrary you have a new team that's eager to show that it's going to roll back threats to the United States and that played right into the British hands. Plus this was right around the time of the Cold War was heating up and Iran happened to share border with the Soviet Union. So what can he do to show that he's fighting communists while can't bomb Moscow? He's not going to invade China. You can't go after the real enemy. It's not possible. So you have to go after somebody else. Iran also in this period. And I think it's important to mention there was a communist party known as the today that was active in parliament was supporting Masada, even though by all accounts was that. There was not a communist himself. The US was still on high alert, all these factors. The British want eventually convinced the USC muster deck is threatening the world it can get onboard. With Britain's plan. See we're desperate for victory to stage a coup and overthrow Iran's prime minister while how mad was that there. This evening is all they give me the brush you much six AM the morning after the tempt Roosevelt and his men. Tired from a night of partying tuned into the radio. But all they heard was silence. And Roosevelt knew something had gone wrong. Then suddenly. The radio crackled on. Military music started playing. And most announce victory over an attempted coup. He noticed that the Shah was nowhere to be found. And immediately suspected that the Shah was behind the attempt. Meanwhile, the shot new this might happen and fearing most Doug would come after him half done is private plane and flew to Baghdad and from there. He went on to Rome where he told reporters I'm probably going to have to look for work now because I'm obviously never going to be able to go back to run. So to recap at the end of day to the Shaw had left, Iran. Most dealt was still in power with no idea that the US was behind the coup attempt and Roosevelt had failed. But even though his boss is back in Washington told him he could go home after the coup failed. Kermit Roosevelt was not willing to give up that easily. I think it came a little bit from the old CIA can-do mentality. The also sends towel week. The Iranian political establishment was he thought he still had assets that he hadn't used must wasn't out of the woods. Just yet. Kermit Roosevelt had. Not given up. And actually it was having a plan b. This message comes from NPR sponsor REI REI believes that a life outdoors is a life. Well lived and they have for eight years. So check out their podcast wild ideas worth living for inspiring stories of people who took the road, less traveled care from explores athletes, authors and experts in the field follow how they're taking wild ideas and making them a reality every day find that on I tunes Spotify, Stitcher or wherever you listen to podcasts. August seventeenth nineteen fifty three. Couple of days after the failed coup at town crowds of supporters packed the streets. Chanting the words has one and victories have nation. It seemed like the worst was behind most of he survived a coup attempt and live to tell the tale. But this was the calm before the storm backroom dealings were happening out of sight and the threat to most adult was still very real. And we'll get to that during this momentary calm, you want to give you some insight into the man who was at the center of this whole thing. The man the US and Britain were terrified. How mad you'd get the feeling that this is the con- fatherly person who cares about the people, and he's very respectful of people. He talks to people do spec for first time. That Iranian politician with advise them as steer fellow citizen. This is Dr Ebrahim neuropathy, a retired physician. Dr nor is he was born in nineteen forty two in a town in Iran, call Qazvin, and he's the most ideal superfan. He even create a website to honor him. Dr nor was he became very interested in politics from young age. I have no idea exactly why. Because we didn't even have radio and our house when it was a kid when I was in a mentally school. Maybe I was tiny and was bullied a lot. Maybe it. So I wanted some Justice in the world Dr noisy like a lot of Iranians sees kind of a national hero sort of Gandhi for Iran. He's really become a mythical figure. But to really understand what's that there. We have to find the man behind the myth. So Muhammad most the deck was in Iran aristocrat again, Stephen Kinzer, his father had been finance minister for decades under the jar regime is mother was a Princess he held various positions that sun Mbeki minister for an affair as minister finance elected twice to the Iranian parliament. He went off to be educated in Europe became home and began campaigning against the agreement by which the British were trying to subjugate Iran. And became quite outraged at the injustices, he saw round and was had that was known to be very dramatic there. These anecdotes where he used to receive visitors in his bed in his pajamas. For example, most of the was a pretty eccentric guy prone to outbursts and dramatic speeches where he would cry even pass out and the US and Britain saw him as kind of erotic and unreliable difficult to negotiate with even if he was a fan of democratic ideas, very much believed in the democratic ideals on checks and balances that were necessary to tell monarchical power at the time, and he came of age during a time where these changes also influence the political system the biggest political change witnessed happened. When most was in his twenties between nineteen o five and nineteen eleven Iran went through a constitutional revolution. This was a remarkable moment in. Middle Eastern history, and in the history of the developing world, Iran developed a constitution in nineteen oh six there are countries in the Middle East that don't even have a constitution today. The revolution sought to make your on more democratic with things like parliament constitution and a free press see for centuries country had been ruled by shahs kings with power passing fathers sons by the turn of the twentieth century, the turn of the twentieth century, the corrupt irresponsible business dealings, the Shah's which riding the running economy straight into the ground which made the Shah's really unpopular among the people. This wasn't like normal corruption. We're talking crazy excessive spending one Shaw had a harem of sixteen hundred people sixteen hundred one six zero zero and he and his many many sons would use the national treasury as their personal piggy Bank taking money out whenever they wanted to travel around Europe. You also demanded that people call him one of the following Hanes Shah had shot. Sean, Sean, audio Nash Silom of the universe at. Dhahran subdural climate nigga only javale flux Saudi dot that route is aiming shadow of God on earth. I could see wanting to become guardian of like or would you prefer shot? Oh god. I personally like subdural of climate. But it just feels like. Right now, you're right anyway point is the Shah's were out of control and the constitutional revolution. United people across Iran against the Shah in favor of a more Representative government a coalition if you will of intellectuals people from the bizarre, the clergy coalition stood up to the monarchy violence broke out. And one of the most interesting stories that came across from team that told you about yet was the story of this American guy who actually fought any Ron's constitutional revolution. Really? Yeah. His name was Howard basket will Howard Baskerville who was it. Graduate of Princeton University seminaries school Baskerville wasn't American missionary and in this period. There was a lot of missionary activity coming from the United States. They would support education in various countries throughout the Middle East became to loan identified with the plight and basketball and wanted to go and fight on the side of the constitutionalists. Exactly. But the US Representative in Iran, begged Baskerville, not to join the fight became to him. And he'll the Tim. No, you can't do that. You know, you shouldn't get involved in civil war of other countries. You come here to help, you know, but he wouldn't listen. And then he threatened him that if you go an involve yourself in the war. I take away your password is okay. This is my passport to him. He said, no, I just because I was born in America that doesn't mean I'm better than them. I'm like them. I'm going to fight for them for their cause. And this is a good cause. Unfortunately, he dies just the first hour of a battle. And by the basket will his sculpture was installed in country regional hall in Tavares and his tomb is like a worship place. So it only an expat rated these missionaries action to America as a government. So what I'm saying? Is that American left very good impression in Iran. Iran has loved it. I had never heard of the sky Howard Baskerville. Neither had I've before this. I mean, it's really wild to think that this guy would have laid down his life for Iran's constitutional revolution. Like think about it. How many Americans that time even new way round was let alone go over there and fight? And it's interesting because at that time, we're in the show were the bad guys. But America was kind of an ally in our fight exactly until they got him. Both. The days after the cooler attempt. However, all that seemed to matter was that was that was a man of the people and that he was still in power but out of sight a new plot against most deaf was brewing permit Roosevelt's plan b. Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from mail chimp, it might sound like male champ just does Email marketing, but they actually do a lot more to help your business grow because growth looks different to everyone. Male champ helps guide you to the right marketing decisions for your business from audience management to ad campaigns, and automation male champ. They do more than male. Thanking nineteen fifty three. Again on the Middle East where engine Iran, I've taken a dramatic. Double twist during three days after the Shaath flat and Roosevelt's coup attempt failed Roosevelt set the state for his second coup attempt and on August nineteenth it began hundreds and hundreds of rioters filled the streets of Tehran and in a word. It was chaos. Three hundred is a conservative estimate and his plan. Was this first of all higher gangs of Irani through people who controlled criminal protection rackets and pay them to go out on the street and cause chaos to Roosevelt actually paid criminals and gang members to storm into the city beat up people in the streets rake, shop windows, shoot your guns into mosques. And while doing all that. Yeah, we love most of the deck. We love communism. And then he hired a second mob to attack the first month which led to bloody violent clashes between. The two mobs and the really trippy thing was that everybody involved. Everybody involved in the battles was being paid to be there. But what they didn't know was they were being paid by the same source, the CIA and all of this was designed to creek fusion as to signal that most that was the source of the violence in the country that he was losing control, which was becoming more and more true. Most decorate fused to send the police out because he said, well, they're peaceful demonstrators people should be allowed to say what they want. He truly was too naive to grasp what was happening. And this brings us to the final part further else plan to get rid of most doubt once and for all Roosevelt ordered both mobs to demos sales house. So a giant crowd surrounded most decks house shouting insults and thrown stones in potion show up but several police and military commanders including a couple with tanks people who Kermit Roosevelt had bribed to participate. Those. Officers began opening fire on house while inside most of the NF you of his closest advisors huddled together tells them I wanna die your in house. But somehow they managed to drag him out back window. They got him over a fence. He fled house was looted. And immediately thereafter Kermit Roosevelt went to get his savior general who he'd been hiding in a safehouse brought the guy who radio station the guy proclaimed himself as a new leader. So this guy general he was putting tower as a placeholder until the Shah who remember had fled to Rome could be turned that eventually turned himself in and just like that with a couple of chess moves criminal Roosevelt's plan assured Iran into a new era. Shaw who had fled to Rome comes home back by generals. I hit military strongman who engineered is returned to power. Everything was that was the Shah was not which isn't really surprising, given the corruption of the Shah's the Shaw then ruled over Iran like a dictator for twenty five years and the western powers, including the US didn't really care because you give them easy access to Iran's oil during that time, the Shah did everything in his power to get rid of any trace of the most dealt era massad the name was banned. Again, Dr Nauru's e you don't hear anything Mussa after the coup that was that was the time was actually in high school. I don't remember anything, you know, much most that there the coup they were off limits things that the running government wanted people to forget under these conditions. Must talk became a sort of legend a symbol of Iran's loss. Potential the CIA only officially acknowle. Its role in the coup in twenty thirteen sixty years later in case you're wondering what happened to muscle. So he turned himself in in the quick shift of power Mazda. Deck was finally apprehended and way trial and was placed on trial who's convicted of treason and sentenced to a prison term followed by life under house arrest. A couple of his closest advisors are executed. There were hundreds of other executions of people who are suspected to be disloyal in the military and Masa deck remained almost a taboo, figure almost for the rest of his life. As for Kermit Roosevelt, Kermit Roosevelt stayed in Tehran to wait for the shot to come back from Rome, and then arranged a farewell meeting with the Shah before leaving Iran. The Shah greeted him with a toast. And he said I oh my throne to God. Mike people in you. He was right. Right. Although it might not be the right order. So Kermit Roosevelt went home. And of course, he was welcomed jubilantly back in Washington is kind of a conquering hero. He went onto more years at the CIA, then later left became an oil consultant, speaking of oil, the holy grail of resources that started this whole thing as you might expect Iranian still ended up with a pretty bad deal. After the coup was set in done oil may again blow westward. Okay. So given all this fundamental ISM. Triple resentment built up against the Shah declared martial law in most of Iran in nineteen seventy nine. Iranians reached a breaking point and revolted against the shot. This shelf fled Iran and the clergy assume control the country. That same year a hostage crisis unfolded at the American embassy. CBS new young Iranians described as students acting with the blessing of Atala Khomeini have occupied the American embassy in regarded as of unsuccessfully trying to get the American hostages out of Ron the government of the United States is now trying to get the deposed Shaw Iran out of this country. And there is no signs that either problem is likely to be solved. So in nine hundred seventeen nine the nineteen Fifty-three crew was invoked as justification for seizing the American embassy. The argument was at the time that these diplomats these American diplomats inside the embassy whereabout to do what Americans had done in Iran. Overthrowing most I did and restoring show, and they were about to do the same thing. And therefore they justified the public widely needed to shut the MRI down. This is ROY cocky on. She writes a lot about this time in Iran's history and the subject is. Deeply personal for her as someone who was born and raised in your own during the tumultuous years of Iranian, revolution and its aftermath and Roya challenged everything. We thought we knew about this story because up until now we've the basic story was this pre nineteen Fifty-three US in Iran are pretty chill. Brin is the bad guy. Nineteen fifty three coup happens. The US installs a dictator in Iran, and eventually the people respond with a revolution and hostage crisis, and the US and Iran, become mortal enemies, so that is the narrative that was presented at the time. It was wrong for the US to intervene. But at the same time, this isn't the whole story and tells only a very small part of why Iran has been stuck in this place for so long Roya says that narrative, let's one group off the hook way too easily Iran's clergy a piece. That's missing from the way. This narrative has been told is the fact that Kermit Roosevelt. This is very wisely. Obviously to go pay visit to the grand Aita owning Tehran and history, changes course, after he does that. So remember when Roosevelt got help from the melas to carry out his plan B after that first attempt failed. Well, ROY things that moment was the real game changer. She says Iran's clergy has been conspiring behind the scenes for a long time to oppose democracy in Iran. She says they saw chance to undermine democracy in nineteen fifty three and then in nineteen seventy nine when it seemed like democracy would be the result of the revolution. They saw another opportunity to take power, and they did this all on Boqing was ideals Nate. Yes. Yes. It's really truly ironic because by nineteen Seventy-nine was I did his long dead. But his legacy is not. So while he himself was. Completely axed by the clerical powers at the time. His narrative his Lesi became very useful to the regime in other words, it's a mistake to put all the blame for Iran's problems on the US intervention in nineteen fifty three that the Iranian clergy have played a part too. I hear what Royal saying Iran's mullah's have definitely than a number in the country. And there's plenty of blame to go around between the US Iran, especially since nineteen seventy nine, and there's a long list of of back and forth grievances that have added to in fueled the tension, but you can still make the argument that the original sin of the US Iran relationship was what happened in August nineteen fifty three and that that set the tone for everything to fall. In the United States US Iran relations begin and end with the hostage crisis. That's the moment that is the key turning point on the source of everything from the Iranian perspective things are very different Iran in and American perceptions. They're like parallel train tracks. Just keep running parallel. They never coincide. That's it burst episode Bluey. I'm ran that. You've been listening to through lie. I show is produced by me and routine. Our team includes Jamie York, Jordi, Anna, hope Lawrence will yell. It's Michelle land as minding Niger eaten, but you also to Larry cap loafers editing help and Greta pitting her for her help backtracking. I music was composed by trouble at Jack and special thanks to on your grandma, Chris Turpin until yard and Seve Nelson for working so hard to make this show or reality. And now that Arab Louis prompting stat who helped us out with translations finally, a big huge massive shoutout to guy Roz Jeff Rodgers Neva grandson, Michigan poor and the whole Ted radio hour and how I built this team for teaching us how to make radio. If you like the show, please leave will serve you on I tunes until your friends to subscribe. And let's keep the conversation going. 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Iran Kermit Roosevelt United States Hanes Shah CIA prime minister Iran Bahamas Britain Washington Ron Shaw US Iran Tehran Middle East Theodore Roosevelt America Iranian parliament Roosevelt Shaw Iran
Episode 327: Operation Ajax (Entry 869.PR2904)

Omnibus! With Ken Jennings and John Roderick

1:15:17 hr | 3 months ago

Episode 327: Operation Ajax (Entry 869.PR2904)

"This nothing we are jennings and john rodrick. We speak to you from our present which we can only assume as your distant past the turbulent time that was the early twenty first century during the great cataclysm that will surely befall our civilization. We began this monumental reference of strange obscure human knowledge. These recordings represent our attempt to compile and preserve wonders esoterica. That would otherwise be lost. So whether you're listening from an advanced civilization or just reinvented the technology to decrypt our transmissions. This is our legacy to you. This is our time capsule this is the you have accessed entry eight six nine dot. Pr to nine zero four certificate number three nine one three one operation. Ajax premier must've decks ruined houses mute testimony two or three days of bloody rioting culminating in a military coup from which the one time dictator of iran fled for his life. Now even though we had a little recording interregnum here in the fall. It's only been a few days since future links if they're listening in order Learned about kermit roosevelt's voyage on the river of doubt. That's right cast your mind back. Yes i can. I can recall this. This will be the second time where the second time that we've done somewhat linked episodes if not back to back then we just did baader-meinhoff because i thought it would be funny but instead people were annoyed actually funnier. So i'm i'm on board. I think people were more annoyed at my baader-meinhoff entry than yours. Well people were annoyed. I mean beyond any ideological annoyance which i still am not going to attempt to plum here. There were people who were annoyed that we talked about the bottom of king without mentioning the more internet famous but meinhof phenomena the frequency illusion. Yeah and then when we did. We didn't get credit. Yeah nobody was like. Oh can always one step ahead. They doubled down on being annoyed as their right. But are you suggesting that there's more to say about kermit roosevelt. I really felt like. I covered the whole. I really carpeted the topic. Well here's the problem with kermit roosevelt. Yeah that was a-. Maybe there's multiple problems with. I don't mean to cancel kermit roosevelt but there are a few problems with kermit rosen. He was sliding down the white house stairs cookie. That was cute but then but then leave right shot. Pandas untimely demise is. Maybe the the hardest part of his story. Did we discuss that in the river of doubt. Because it's alaska uh jason. Kidd is yeah. He he ended up taking his own life in alaska during world. War two officer. I do believe we talked about it. It's it's right at the end of the story. it's just been a few days for the future or possibly thousands of years who knows in what order. They're listening but right for us. It was like six weeks ago if you're listening in alphabetical order. Who knows what the last episode came. But but we should say yeah. You've been gone for the last month so so we had to learn how to use computers again. You and i were almost thinking we would have to do remotes entries which we have not liked to do. Because we've only done it once but yeah i reverted to a completely cottage core. Existence was making my own marmalade. Were wiggling a big Big serving spoon out of atwood. I came in. It's my only tool. Use it the sorry to scavenge. I use it to scavenge the dog food out of all the containers that i find around so not just a spoon. That's everything to you. It's well your spear and your chopsticks and your can opener that in my gyro copter. Did you also whittle a gyro copter. While i was gone was gone for a while. the yes. So i i have no memory of this but at the end of kermit. Some malaria from the river of doubt became a recurring health problems throughout his live. Dim liver problems which are exacerbated by his drinking which either exacerbated or were exacerbated by his depression breaking his drinking was to the level that he had delirium cremins mike but then also was given a command in the army because he knew somebody he was. Yeah even before. America joined the war. He was up rating scandinavia or something with with the british and was injured. But you know like fort. Richardson alaska during world war two. Maybe it wasn't the primised post larry's fort richardson. What richardson is right. There in anchorage there two giant military bases kind of within anchorage city limits. And you can live in anchorage. And i don't think you could not be aware of them. But but it's but it's possible to live in anchorage and not appreciate how big these bases are. And how much they really take up the real estate that otherwise would be part of the city of anchorage ruins. Just go around them. You're really i mean. It's the same as golf courses or or gated communities. It's you kinda don't notice because the roads are designed so you won't right but if you look at an aerial view anchorage is built on a peninsula and if you look at an aerial view of it. You're like wait a minute. One third of it is given over to these military bases that the road just goes around and you kind of look over the fence and you're like oh some trees and then i bet you there's a opens to the inlet on the other side and it's like yeah well it's they're they're as big as the city. I can't remember. I've mentioned this on this show but the longtime u s army post in seoul where i grew up. You know we often. For most of the time. I was in career. We lived just less than a mile from the base. And you went to the px to get get your cornflakes and stuff. And i'm sure you gotta go to the commissary for your cornflakes. He got to go to the exchange for your cds along eighties boxes car. Gene got to go to the stars and stripes bookstore for your marvel comics and your a nba magazines. Did you could you use the swimming pool and stuff i mean. Did you have that much access. Use the bowling alley. Let me see went went to boy scouts at the scout hut theater. I'm ben went to the movie theater every weekend about christmas trees at the tennis courts near the scout hut. No if i grew up on an army post even though we never lived there if someone was if there was a family like yours kind of doing the same work which was not military work. Your dad was a was a lawyer. I was just. My mom had a dod civilian job. And oh she did so that was what got you on the base. Where should i school. She was the beloved. Mrs jennings at seoul american high school for for. I don't know that. More than half a decade. I guess where my good friend kathleen edwards attended school. She and i were at so forth. So american was the dod school those were the. That's the wrong side of the track. Those were the bad kids. Seoul foreign diplomats cell phones. All the fancy embassy. An ex pat kids but so the base is a large presence. What i was gonna say is if you look on a korean map. And by the way they've it it's right in the middle of one of the most Fancy crowded fashionable parts of saw them. It's not your garden up. Well it's it's not that far from gong but it's no. It's it's near the han river. It's very desirable real estate between on mountain and the and the han river but the japanese had been there since the beginning of the twentieth century. And then then the un forces just took over and so wanted to back and finally as of last year most of the army and the un stuff is all vacated to out in the exurbs of seoul the former camp humphreys is now the new base. And are they a is soul. Reclaiming this Central greg right. After i left in the nineties they turned the golf course. The big old military golf course finally gave it back to the to the local government. It became a lovely park with a big cultural museum in it. And that's the golf course. Where i used to wander around and make trouble with my friends when i was a kid. And now it's one of the nicest perks and soul but now they're gonna. They're trying to decide what to do with the with the complex. I'm sure it'll be are calling. I think they're gonna turn into kind of soul like upscale condos and high-rises and retail and fashionable whatever. But if you look on a map of that part of seoul for many years on on. The korean online mapping engines it would just be like a weird polygon of blank forest right in the middle of salt because they did not want aerial views of any of the buildings or the facilities. So you just i. It was just this incongruous. We just cut and pasted. Some trees from siberia just dumped a weird polygon of them into the middle of soul. And if you didn't know any better you'd think there's a nature reserve right there right. No it was. Just where i bought x men comics The richardson is where so after his depression and drinking and his injury in his norwegian raid kermit kind of went off the map and His he had a cousin several times removed. Who was now president. Right and fdr had the fbi track down kermit and got an in some bar on the. That's what i'm imagining some. Fleabag hotel and drag him out and sober him up. And he gets stationed in alaska. And you you said. That was not a cushy colleen cushy sign of maybe it's just keeping him out of trouble i mean. I've been waiting for that to happen to me for thirty years. Like you think the president's gonna come some knock on the door of my fleabag hotel and they're like there's a helicopter waiting we. Your country needs you in the aleutians. The thing about the thing about fort. Richardson in the forties is that anchorage was just a you know. Just sort of a A railroad waystation. Anchorage isn't really. It's not a deep water. Poor it's not. There's not a ton even though it's called anchorage it just anchor there. Because there's nowhere else there no other mudflat that will hold your anchor. Does it have a trader. Joe's does now but it didn't then he didn't but but for richardson and then elmendorf air force base. You know they were big cold war installations. But i have no idea what it would have been like to be stationed there. Nineteen forty three. I can't imagine it was luxuriance. I didn't go great for him. He shot himself in the head and he's buried there today. Yeah that's crazy. I spent a lot of time on fort richardson. Because when i was a civil air patrol cadet. We had our meetings at elmendorf but they would take us over to fort rich to do trainings and they just had nicer whiteboards on the army. Post no they. They fired howitzer They they gave us all this crazy needs to actually shoot down planes. Sometimes i guess they don't know with a howitzer but they would you know. It was just sort of the russians. Used to think that the or rather the soviets used to think that the boy scouts and the civil air patrol where paramilitary organizations and. We always laughed. Like ha no. It's just teaching you how to whittle and start a fire but in fact looking back. They're totally paramilitary organizations and they would try to surround these military bases and kind of teak give us a glimpse of every job. So i spent a day embedded with the with the fire department. And you know it would give us these experiences. So i spent a lot of time over there and i had no idea that kermit roosevelt was buried there not that i would have been interested when i was thirteen but i mean they couldn't even get you interested in enlisting no. There's no way they're going to get you interested in kermit roosevelt grave. I was super interested in firing the howitzer the problem with firing a howitzer is you never see the shell land. You stand there. It's not the only problem with firing a howitzer. Everything else is kind of amazing. You know loading it is cool and then you pull a little lanyard in a boom and and you feel i mean a sense of power except the shell goes over the hill. You don't you don't get the fun of seeing you're seeing. No one gets fragments. The video game term. I sprayed be friendly fire. You never never get you. Never get to see the car blow up. There's some spotter who's looking at it through through a lens and and calling the co-ordinates well there's a certain kind of pleasure to being the person in the room who doesn't actually get to see the visceral thing but but whose machinations made the operation possible and. That's what we're going to talk about today. How segue nicely done the problem with Wait a minute. We're getting to the topic already. It's only been. I need to explain. Why why we did kermit roosevelt right. This was this was a request from a listener named ron. Woody and i said hey. This guy wants a show about kermit roosevelt. You sit and you read instead. River of doubt then i read his email more closely and what he wanted was a show about roosevelt junior. And i think. I had seen that. And i thought oh yeah teddy. Roosevelt son kermit roosevelt junior. Sure he's the president sons but that's not how junior works but his name is teddy. Teddy roosevelt son would be teddy roosevelt. Junior also. I don't believe that ron woody is a real name. It does kind of seem like a parks and rec character or something Suburban man calls his he or golf club or yeah or a seventy s porn name. Yeah that maybe. That's maybe ron jeremy's subtle. You wanna go with ron moody. So it turns out what mr woody. The sudan soroti had requested was a show about kermit. Roosevelt junior son of arbor and our on the river of c. And kermit roosevelt. Junior is most famous for his association with a nother american history event of the later twentieth century. Which is the nineteen fifty three coup. That took down the prime minister of iran. Oh also known as operation. Ajax was there not a shah. At the time there wasn't shah the shah of course had sat on had sitton had sitting on the peacock throne sitted had sit on the as we say in persian poetry. Come come sit with me underneath. Abou- d'arthur he had been the child's family. The philosophies had been on the throne of the peacock throne iran for for decades her. Let's say let's say decades. Should we actually get more than twelve. We actually give a date for the beginning of the pilot was the shah not installed at. I mean i know the show was reinstalled but was he not installed in the first place. Here we go so iran. What is today. iran has had shaw's going back thousands of years. It's just an ancient persian title for a king. The palavi dynasty the last royal dynasty of iran. Yes was installed in the twenties by european powers divvying up the region after overthrowing the ca- jar dynasty which the previous royal house yes but prior to that there had been a constitutional revolution in iran around nine hundred five nine hundred ten that had installed a that had led to the development of parliament and a prime minister. A parliamentary system in parallel with the royal dynasty. Wouldn't it be nice if we're still a few things. Went wrong after that. And kermit roosevelt or kim as he was called in alternating generations have been for generations now of kermit roosevelt and the odd numbered ones are called kermit and the even numbered ones are called. Kim that's been true in my family. The odd numbered. John's are called jack and then even ones are john and i feel a little bit rob to that. You'd rather be a jack. We'll know the thing about being a jack is that you're still john. You get both. Yeah right john. F. kennedy or jack. Kennedy i i think jack roderick would have been a cool name for me. But that's my uncle's name jack roderick except he gets to be john anytime you want his email addresses or was john roderick so kind of kind of feel gypped. If your uncle kind of feel rob if your uncle yeah. You can't say that. If your uncle jack has passed can you. Now be jack rutter. I think it's at fifty years old. It's a little late for people to start calling you jack. Jack's kind of a young sporty name also sound like you would see a analyst if your name is jack rodrick. I think i'm happy to still. That's a another knock on the door. I'm waiting for we need your. We need someone with your name and scancen of name. Well also undermined government's ability to ability to be ci analyst. I feel like kills. You think you have all the skills. Think so i could interpret an awful lot of foreign communiques communiques. I'd be pretty good at communicating. What about dossiers. I think i'm be great at it. Yeah are these things that kim roosevelt had to deal with assuming he had a lot of different kinds of paperwork with the french paperwork with a french name. That's say you know you're in. The cia has an as an you would say excellent. You think could be a cultural attache at a at an embassy somewhere. The roosevelt also did the thing which i don't think he. Yeah you do this in your family right where somebody pat when somebody passes away your numbers move up one like when somebody dies the third becomes junior. No we always screw it up by by giving people different middle atoms. So there's never a. I think my dad was a junior but he. He resisted it. He never if if someone ever called him junior he would fly into a rage murder that think kermit roosevelt junior might have stayed kermit roosevelt junior even when his father shot himself in alaska in the forties but now when a current passes away everybody gets a promotion. Kermit passes away an angel in heaven hell every time. A kermit sings with his banjo in the swamp. Can i for the longest time have felt like my hair was one of my strongest features impervious to the ravages of time. Neither you nor i have eyebrows. But i felt like a big thick head of hair really was my identity. But lately i've been feeling the top of my head. Thinning the hair up there. You're feeling the top of your head more than usual because there's less hair in the way you were texting me you were like. I think my hair's getting a little thinner up there. What do i do. It comes for everybody. You know and it's it's it's tricky because so much of your identity is i have hair and then it's perfectly normal as you get into your twenties thirties. And so on it gets more and more common that you're noticing a little lesser two or three guys experience. Some form of male pattern baldness before thirty five. Oh well i've beat the odds dodge. The reaper up until now in my fifties but still i'm not looking forward to having a a monk's haircut. There are still here lost drugs. That are prescription. Only which means you had to go to the doctor's office which was a hassle. Yeah but now. There's a better wage on film in keeps with keeps you get your doctor's visit on line and then you get your hair loss medication delivered right to your home. Every three months you get a new batch of generic versions of one of the only two. Fda approved hair loss products. Oh there are only two. Would you would think by reading the backs of men's magazines that That were thousand. There are only two that work and you may have tried them before if you're concerned about your hair loss but never at this great keeps price so why does keeps have more five star reviews than any of its competitors and why do more than one hundred thousand men trust keeps for their hair loss. Prevention medication graduate asked. I'm glad you asked these two very specific questions john. I would assume it's convenience and affordability. Their treatment started just ten dollars a month. That's seems reasonable and for a limited time. You can get your first month free. So if i were say for instance ready to take action and prevent hair loss would i go to keeps dot com slash us to receive my first month of treatment for free. That's correct keeps dot com slash omnibus month of treatment for free that's k. e. p. s. dot com slash omnibus. I'm headed there right now. kim roosevelt kermit. Junior was his history professor at caltech and For well at the time he was but he did join the os s in the in the Around world war tune at the beginning of the cold war he was running the near east and africa. Division of the us now the cia and he was an arabist. He was That was kind of block. Within the intelligence community that was very interested in the growing movement of arab nationalism. They had kind of showing off the yoke of their british and french oppressors because as we said after world war one the british moved in they got the shaw on the throne and got him to sign a terrible deal whereby you know britain purses oil revenue right. They founded the anglo persian oil company. Which you can still Gas your car. Today they'd put a little green on their logo and they call a. b. but that is the same outfit that was paying off the shaw that green means that it's sustainable and natural and good. That's why i go there instead of chevron i don't like the militaristic vibe of a chevron you want the little leafy vine i take my very efficient punday and i use the leaf gas and everybody's happy i mean i guess leaves eventually turns into gas sinclair's lying about the dinosaurs. Absolutely right. it's it's plant matter. It's algae probably. You need a little picture of algae on your gas gestation sign. That's accurate one. But the thing about the. The thing about the arabists is that that when the os morphed into the cia. They immediately converted into a cold warrior. Bastion right that the soviets and the and the americans were using the using the middle east as a as a proxy for their for their global power stroke. Without fear of the soviets operation. Ajax would never have happened. Britain got britain had cut this amazing deal where the they got kept all the money from around oil and the shah. Just basically enriched himself. They lived like kings. They live like shaw's better than king you know with the fanciest of ski vacations and airplanes and yachts and everything just because they got everything they wanted from the cookie jar impoverishing the nation and when a man named mohamed mossa deg hope. I'm saying that right claiming to be saying that a lot most dag. Maybe let's say most dake today seems better when he became prime minister in nineteen fifty two He immediately wanted to put a stop to this. He nationalized the industry. Well he he tried to negotiate a better deal with the country european partners and when that failed he just nationalized. The oil industry and britain freaked out so was the role of prime minister. A holdover from the one thousand nine hundred five constitutional monarchy that somehow the shah hadn't thought to eliminate. Yes he's still had. It probably wasn't that different from a european constitutional monarchy today where there's pampered royals with little actual political power living off the fat of the land and or in the case of britain living in chile drafty castles and complaining about it. Is this is this a review of the crown. I'm talking about dabor. Althouse allows cnn season. Four of the crowd. But you know. That's that's true today that there's a lot of talk about steady with these royal families but that's because of this memory of when they were just real sponges of public money it was. It was the parliament and most of the day that had political power. He should have been partners with the shaab. That relationship was in trouble because of these accurate perceptions of the palavi family as just being scoundrels and waste rolls. Right britain embargoed iranian oil everywhere and pled to the this is now britain and declined pled to the us for some backup and term and basically said. Look there's other you can do. This happened to us when mexico nationalized. This is just the twentieth century. You don't get your sweet eighty percent of somebody else's money anymore just because you have the howitzers right and that probably would have been the situation until the truman administration became the eisenhower administration. The dulles brothers took over everything. Fear of soviet expansion sorry soviet expansion was at a peak and now very easy for these arabists in the to say look the problem is not the the british are paying more for their pipeline oil. Now the problem. Is that these. Governments are getting up and they need to be doing it under the influence of our people and are not the soviet puppets because otherwise the soviets just expand toward the toward the mediterranean toward the indian ocean toward warm water. I know you talking about russia's never warm water ports. This big john john. is it not true. The russia lacks warm. water port. it is you assuming that you assuming that you don't count the baltics and kaliningrad. They do now in the form of kaliningrad but they can't. There's no overland ability to get in and out of there so so with the you got me started. That's what i wanted. And that's why you know that's why they invaded afghanistan. That's that's their whole. That's the whole game. They're always looking for a way out. And that's what the eisenhower administration. The dallas brothers were afraid of and that gave the arabists and opening to start their ca panky in the region. Of course the there's a long american tradition of overthrowing governments all the way around the world. I mean when the marines sing about the shores of tripoli. That's the barbary wars of eighteen five in his early as the madison administration. We were installing regimes overseas. That would be more favorable to our shipping right well and the barbary pirates are our future entry in the omnibus. So don't give way too much or if you've already listened to that because you're listening out of order a pass entry of us exactly if you're listening in alphabetical order. You would have been one of your early earliest episodes Most of the day was charismatic. Well like figure for having kind of democratized continued to democratize iran during this period and trying to take power away from these out of control. Fat cat pahlavi's but also this was an era of kind of secularization of the world of islam. Right he was not popular with the mola's as we shall see. The clergy was very skeptical of the movement toward democratization. Because it it you know it Weaken their own cold on the people right and what they saw as the correct way of living a good iranian life right and the and the the fun and age-old conflict between the shia and the sunni which seemed to be mucked up by this imposition of an overlay of well. That's what happens with the secular government can no longer fight in the streets with your religious opponents because stupid pluralism most popular figure. He's often referred to as extremely eccentric. And i was interested in. Because you know what's better than the eccentricities of some mid-century prime minister s like Helmi more but when i looked it up i was a little disappointed. It turns out that he would often wear grey pajamas to public events. He would conduct business in bed. He would weep openly and he would often complain of health. Problems sounds like john lennon. It sounds like john roderick. Who among us does not have these crazy eccentricities of liking to work in pajamas and complaining about your help. I since the pandemic i have found myself i have purchased now. Five pairs of pajamas identical. No we got. We got some pajamas for mar from our recent sponsor. Mac weldon pajamas. I got pajamas. I used my money on what henley's swell sweaters i think. No no we got. Jim i got. Pj's because i'm living in now. Why wouldn't you. i just haven't passed any legislation i had. I had to rent a rent. A tux for like a costume for video thing. I was shooting remotely. And i walked into a tux rental place and it was just the saddest year. I was like all. The problems cancelled all the weddings cancer. Of course and i said. I think you guys aren't running a lot of texts texas. The guy just looked around the empty men's warehouse and said buddy. We're not doing anything. Nobody's even buying pants from us. Oh where did you get that great. Smoking jacket that you used in that one ad must have just showed up at the set. that was. Yeah that was just wardrobe actually asked me. Hey how many three piece earth tone suits do you own for this. And i said you wanna be talking to my friend john. I do not own a single three piece suit much less in tweeds or whatever you want. But you didn't ask to keep that smoking jacket. It was it was very becoming. Thank you know. I don't know when i would have worn that again. We're not an pants working time around the house. And that's exactly around the house with your shorts. So i've been able to find any example of amazing eccentricities of mr mostly. He wasn't feeding his guards. Siamese fighting fish or anything but but he was. I guess he was thought his colorful and unusual figure. Maybe that was tempting to the arabists. You know there's something about a a white nineteen fifties male and a crew cut. Who thinks this is another continent and another race. Certainly not ours. The correct one. This will be easy pickings. Yeah especially like you kind of feel like he's western oriented maybe eccentricity automatically makes you feel if you're if you get crew cut ivy league la agent that i don't know easier to get to was a bright man. He was. He was well educated in the finest european school. He kind of tomorrow's iranian gentlemen But the cia still decided he would be easy pickings easy pickings to get rid of right. Where he's he picking for the soviets cigarette of you know so it really is like. Hey you know. We don't want to overthrow a prosperous regime but you know what you know. What stalin's going to do it if we don't sense right. A reformer is nothing but trouble. Really we're skeptical of reformers because we don't know what the reforms will be. You know we we kinda like castro taking out batista own now terms it turns out. We don't like those kind of reform. We don't like chase who nationalizing things. Who's we the tucker. Carlson show for easter euphoria. Nothing improper nobody so in july nineteen fifty-three kermit roosevelt junior grandson of former president. One of america's finest oldest and richest new york families crosses the border into iran with a. I don't wanna say a clever plan but with a plan as we shall see the plan is kind of basic. Here's operation h. Here's what you from working from a safe house in tehran. He decides first to bribe the press. He just throws money at local papers who it turns out local local journalists in tehran in the fifties Will do whatever you want for a very small check. Is he fluent in farsi. I do not believe so. He's got other agents with him. He's he's the mastermind from out. He did not speak arab. He did not speak farsi. But i guess he was good with people you know he would he would. He would make friends and tell people that he was america. And this is what this is what they wanted to hear and his his name was roosevelt roosevelt. And there was some memory of the us being good for around like during the constitutional revolution that helped install the parliamentary system around nineteen ten. There was some You know. American intelligence guy who just called an audible and decided he was going to go and fight and support the forces of democracy and he was immediately killed. But there's like statues of this guy baskerville now and so there was this cultural memory of how the americans come in. And they're a force for good and democracy. This was still the case. When i moved to korea early in the eighties that older shopkeepers would just be delighted to see an american because that was the face of liberation. That didn't last right in korea as a late eighties. There were already student demonstrations about correctly about the kind of military the downsides of american military fifty years of american military occupation and kinds of cultural imperialism. But there's a guy named roosevelt who is making friends right and so has money to spend. That's thing he's got a check. Can i probably didn't take. This is one of the most depressing things about this story to me. Is that you know within a week. He's every newspaper is angry about how awful the most of the government is and then he starts meeting with the islamic leaders and starts paying off all the mullets he could. He visits ground. A- tola babe. I'm saying that right in tehran and tells him look. I know secularization bad for business. I can help. Here's a fat check. And now the mullah's start preaching sermons in the mosques every a sabbath saturday. Pretty sure every weekend. Sundown thing no no no. They preach all the time. Twenty four seven. Well you gotta you gotta pray five times a day. So these sermons are also now about The devil it's funny how easily the mola's are converted by money. This is the saudi arabia problem to write for for a group of people. Who are you'd think they'd be above reproach sheraton's and ascetics because they're because they're hard hard-bitten desert religion well it just because they're sunni fundamentalist. Right you would think that that that would be a thing that insulated you from being manipulated by manipulating so easily and cheaply by the cia disillusioned about iranian tolan's principles but not guy maybe carson in the eighty should have been doing more told jokes about how they're they'll just do anything for money. Sure born in. Arizona moved to babylon his third step once. He's paid off the newspapers and the mola's is to turn the shah against the prime minister. Which seems pretty easy to do at first. The shah is resistant. You know the shaw and the prime minister is supposed to be a united front and there had been tension for years but they had not you know they were. They were part of the essentially part of the administration. You know right and but luckily again kermit got the checkbook and he starts writing checks and he buys the shah's sister for code and a few bribes later he's after a series of late night meetings with the shah. He's managed to persuade him that the shah family would benefit from a coup. If we were to get rid of most it seems like muscled dig hasn't done anything overtly to justify all this all this energy right. He's just we're wearing pyjamas. He has. It's not like he's instituted. Some crazy nationalization of the oil companies yet. No he no he. This is already. This is this is an years. After he has nationalized oil industry. I see and so everybody. But it's you know the that was only british money now. it's just now it's american fear of communism. It's true that he. I don't think he's made overtures to the soviets he hasn't given inflammatory speeches about international revolution You know there's i don't i can't see any sign that most of the day is is ready to be seduced by the comintern. Somehow the idea got into this group that supporting the mullah's was a way to To gain control over the region somehow that that exploiting religious conservativism would have been then. Luckily that will never backfire on. I can't think of any way in the last seventy years in which that's backfired on. That's the crazy peninsula about the cold war like we. We took out who you would assume would be. America's friends like people trying to reform put democracy in place. I mean that was the lip service paid. But we kept putting in these pinochet's right left. I didn't know where that sentence was going to go. We kept putting in these shays. Got you and and and poor muster of two evils. I guess i'll it's crazy. I guess if you're if you're liberal you're closer to being a soviet. That just seems weird. That's that's exactly right. A left-wing dictator is gonna be making concessions to the working people try and maybe accepting overseas help to do so On august fifteenth nineteen sixty three a truck as I don't know why detail in every account of this but as current and his friend sit in a safe house in tehran. Listening to the score of guys and dolls every count. It is one one person had a story to tell it somehow is the detail that that gives the color to the thing. I wonder if it's increments book. He later writes a book. And i wonder if that comes from his book counter coup but a truckload of presidential guard who have been paid off to turn against the president. They're not very good. Presidential guard anymore. Arrives at most of the expansion but what they don't know is that he is found out somebody has leaked to him and he's got a larger group of loyal presidential guard in the bushes. I love this The phone lines were supposed to be caught. And they were not cut and kermit's ambushers get amber she'd i guess and The coup fails and the next morning. It's a gloomy day in the safehouse The shah has been taken to safety. He ends up fleeing to baghdad. Oh the shots rolled and rivero. Yes i think. He knows that the tensions between him and such that. it's clear. well. I mean the the whole plan. Because they've got a backup ruler they get rid of most of the day they can just install the shaw and all he wants is a pipeline of american dollars right. So he's the new face of of the iranian government and that's nudity. He's already there right. Nobody likes him but he's already. They're hilarious baghdad. Would be his safe His like safe readout time. There's no Earliest maybe. That's the only. I didn't get on but iranian iraqi. Tensions are such that you can still get to baghdad. 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That's mac weldon dot com slash omnibus. And if you enter promo code omnibus you will get twenty percent off mac. Weldon reinventing men's basics. Or if you have a sister. That's super cool reinventing men's basics and also for your sister that should be the new slumming. Now wait the. The iraqi bath party or baath party started in Was founded in one thousand nine hundred eighty one so this would have been contemporaneous. Song was already in power but there is no war between the countries. I mean i guess. The iran iraq iran iraq relations started to go south in the late sixties with the shaw in power. Spoilers sorry just told you how crew is going to handle. Here's operation ajax is gonna come out you would think roosevelt would fly home with his hat in his hand right but but but that would that would have been anti quagmire and you know this is the era we really like to crack logan crag mark plus he's one of these as you say can do ivy league crew cut guys you know. That's not the american spirit when you're when you're coup fails it just means you didn't have enough guys in the truck right so he has. He has a harvard man after all. He goes to age x plan. B which is continues to be Throw money at people but this time he decides just throw money at local small time criminals. Oh he needs. He needs unrest in the streets. Good allies and there's no unrest in the street so he finds local protection rackets and pays them off to start shooting guns in the air and throwing bricks through the windows of things and beating up ladies understand why the world doesn't see america as the hero of twentieth century a and and he tells them the things we love most of the day we love communism that famous that famous thing that protesters always say we love communism. Most doesn't seem all that read right and you know. This is a tactic that you can see. Just in recent unrest in american cities. You see a lot of these. A lot of these masked figures caught on film. Saying i love antifa. This dairy queen must burn weirdly. They a lot of them later. Turn out to be proud. Boys or google brothers or whatever we have now. Yeah that's very hard to parse right because here in seattle we watched the The chop go from being a black lives matter. Protest to being a centre list's kind of unfocused protest which hard to know how many fifth columnists there were. And how many just regular oregonians you're saying. Regular organs are not fifth column but they were chanting we love communism or something confusing. When are all saying we love. Everyone's like wikipedia is that with two s.'s. And then so now. He's got his unrest in the streets from anti most day elements. Oh sorry sorry. Fake pro more today elephants. Who are who are just super into communism and meant to like that. This is the crazy thing right. He really has the idea that this is going to turn public opinion. It's almost exactly what happened in the streets of of the united states this past and it has worked right fox news. Shows you a guy in a mask throwing bricks at cops or whatever and you don't see earlier the whoever planted the bricks or so he then but this is smart. Book is so imaginative but go ahead. Tell me it's what. I don't like about operation. Ajax you want you want kermit to kind of playing forty chess and really. He's just writing bigger and bigger checks but this is kind of like this twist. He then pays a second group of people to counter protests the first group of people nice. He's now hired a second. You you see these guys out yelling we love communism. Well go get them that sucks. Here's some money. Go through bricks adam. So now they're genuinely is unrest and most today you know maybe. They want him to crack down but he won't. Maybe it would have been smarter to crack down. But for in this timeline. He did not send in the police. He says this is the kind of protests that you expect in a pluralistic democracy. Like he's still he's still a good guy you know. Yeah he's still attempting western pluralism and then kermit's titans the news here. He orders both mobs simultaneously to march on most of the house which is confusing because one of them is is at least right off extensively a pro most today army and pro-communist. They're gonna go to most house and just to shanta much. They love him right and the other is going to go there and may trouble. So he's bringing the conflict right to the prime minister's front door this is inspiring cunanan level of distrust. In what what something previously something you previously trusted implicitly in the fifty s. But i mean if you can create that much if it's just a checkbook just an open checkbook too because you can see the public opinion now believing that this is That this is grassroots and genuinely inspired feeling like you need to pick a side. Mothers and fathers screaming at their kids I'll say this right now. This is what makes the most mad about this is just that he doesn't have brilliant. He's not bringing american technology. He's not using amazing state of the art american surveillance or computing power. He doesn't have facebook. can he's not even using kind of brainwashing techniques early. All he is brought is a is a checkbook. He's he's got some kind of black budget for for his near eastern africa division. And that's all it takes. Apparently to de stabilize entire an entire fairly prosperous nation. What's crazy is that this best and the brightest generation didn't actually believe that the american system was could sell itself based on its own merits right like it. That's interesting the exploitation of nature of that of of mid-century capitalism somehow was the was the side of the argument that they that they lined up behind rather than saying greater freedom participatory democracy education. Like these are the clean water. These are the things that we want to bring to the world. Which would have been more convincing more stabilizing. I wonder if in the face of stalin era duplicity. The intelligence felt like they had to compete. They assumed that the russians were also. They're playing dirty tricks and so it was always the ends justifying the means. I guess you know what if they you know. So the the you know then. The soviet union is telling elaborate lies about the rosie -ness of their system. Right right. so if they're going to do that you know these. It's led by inspired by kind of colonialism and racism these these lesser people. They're going to believe that stuff unless we start telling our own unless we start spinning our own webs that colonialism extends to american citizens to the lesser people. Being anyone that didn't go to harvard and isn't working for the government. How strange journey generally an anti conspirists feel like. Most of the theories are dumb. Yeah but then you look at you. Look at this era. And i mean i know there are future links who are rolling their eyes and saying that they read all of this many years ago in in A people's history of the united states. But sure yes we we knew it too but also you just want to. I don't know because i still believe that. Education and clean water are the revolutionary technologies that the twentieth century did advance ultimately civil rights. But to find i mean. It's just so like colossally disillusioned. It seems like we didn't even try. Yeah right it wasn't like that failed. And i was like well. I guess we're gonna have to send in kermit and dulles you know like like the roosevelt named probably like woo woos all the cia guys to go. We'll send him in there. And i guess you know. Marshall plan in berlin airlift right. That was worked right right. So why why was that. Not the playbook right. i don't know why not. Just fund like commerce small businesses you know. Why don't we just invent microloans god. In fact so you've got two mobs converging on most days palace. His residence and apparently kermit has one check laughed and his final bribe is to the police and the military look. There's a riot in front of the prime minister's house. You're going to have to go in so now the tanks roll in and at that point. It's over robert mason. The action bias of the cops in the army. What are they gonna do. You think he could've just skipped the whole thing. Maybe he'd liked having this complicated plan. But what if you've just written a bigger check at first to the police and the army the that's an illegitimate coup whereas this appears to be. Yeah i mean we. We're seeing that. In the united states right. The the law and order crowd needs a justification and all and it doesn't require much and roosevelt apparently genuinely believe there was justification you know. He thought that the people were fed up with most of the day that there was a lot of grumbling and unrest in the you just had to bring it out The the the the number of czechs had to write maybe indicates to me that he was wrong about that. Well but or that. The cause of that unrest was that the shah was skimming the there's inequality and so forth right it's the people see the inequality and have the wrong. Blame the wrong guy. But yeah within the week. General zahedi has been installed as the new head of the government famously. He's a military strongman. Great the messed so good job. We just got rid of the democratically-elected elected guy who was standing up to europe. And now we've got a straight up dictator. The shaw is to come back from rome. Where so haiti's government welcomes now. This new continuity with the past most stands trial many at his His colleagues of his government are executed I think in order to move forward is a most of the life is spared. He spends the rest of his life under house arrest which is ideal for a guy who likes to wear pajama pajamas. Working bed complain about his health. And sometimes we openly. It's maybe he didn't mind. I do feel like sometimes some heads of got a role but but to have killed more sedate would have seemed illiberal whereas keeping him under house arrest. You know kills. Mark progressive the soviets. Kill jar exact. We just overthrew him biolo- counts. Eisenhower was surprised that there was a new government in iran. And in fact there's funny stories of as kermit is running this This kind of counterintelligence up The different part part of the part of the near east and african division knows about you know. He's he's planning these stories that the he's he's paying off the mola's but we're down the hall people keep running in the room and saying hey the whatever newspaper has just turned against most the day or now. The mola's are just like this is great. You know this is a good sign. Like the left doesn't know the right hand is doing course of course not. But eisenhower's pleasantly surprised. The forces the domino theory has been stopped at least at least here near the black sea at least briefly at least briefly and kermit roosevelt is given secret metal. Whatever the the equivalent of a medal of honor is right. The the intelligence star. Something like purity metal should've watched who stopped watching homeland after the second season And so kermit's big star because now we know how to do this and you know again. Us intervention in fort unwanted intervention and for government has a long history You know we were doing it in panama fifty odd years before this but this new model. Now there's a now there's a modern playbook and the ca starts doing it everywhere they want kermit to lead the one in guatemala and he turns down he says no Iran actually needed most dugout. Is i. i'm the one who read. The tea leaves the knew what the people needed. This guy in guatemala's popular. He refuses to stop the the from doing it but he but kerman ends up leaving the intelligence community. You'll be shocked to hear that. He goes into the oil and arms industries awe as a novel approach has an expert. Somebody somebody they can send in to the negotiating table and all these kinds of me that someone from the american government founded job in the arms and oil industry. It's shocking in nineteen seventy nine. He writes his book counter. Coup longtime later longtime later which is kind of his account of what really went down. And apparently it's very self serving and makes himself kind of a you know a debonair adventure you know. It's kind of like the ben affleck argo versus the real thing where his version is much more exciting and the readers who have to approve it just kind of rolling their eyes at this dime novel crap but the funny thing is he's been he. The book came out in august as in the show depose on the show is suppose an equal. He must have been working on this book throughout seventy eight and seven hour. Maybe he's been. He's one of these guys who had a book. He's working on his book and his study on weekends for years when he wasn't golfing by the time it finally comes out on august. The shah has been deposed back in april. So there's been five months of this new hardline islamist regime which she helped birth. You know by. By kind of empowering the tola and his mullah's against secular government he kind of created this new hardline movement and it led to the hostage crisis. And all of a sudden america's like. Whoa whoa whoa. What iran's a problem and a lot of these documents were released by the in twenty fourteen. It wasn't commonly known how much we were responsible for our own bed. Wow well right. That would make sense. I mean when you create that much dramatic unrest. You have no idea what people actually will do. What the response actually. You're just pulling a lever on howitzer. Don't see where the shelling right. It would be like a shell that was in the air for decades kermit. Roosevelt was not the last kermit. Roosevelt kermit roosevelt. The third formerly the fourth before his grandfather died. is a law professor at the university of pennsylvania. He clerked for david suitor and is now a prestigious writer of books about the law and also of legal thrillers. He he has written a couple there like kind of grisham style legal thrillers. But maybe with more of a more of a policy edge like they're a little more classy. 'cause you know his first one i think is about some dupont style. Clean water issue. His second one is actually about court. Matsu it's about the japanese interment camps. It's kind of the story of the legal battles over world. War two internment so. They're kind of grisham novels with a with a more with fancier written by a lawyer more highbrow. Whoa kermit roosevelt. The third is Between the two of us in age he was born in nineteen seventy one. So he's a you know. I would describe him as a young and then vital person in early middle age as decrepit quadruple. This guy had forty nine. Whoa but i guess. What i'm saying is at some point. Or if ron woody keeps keeps us supporting the patriots on we may have to come back and do a show about the next generation of kerma. Rose this may just turn into a podcast about people named kermit roosevelt. Yeah it may surprise you. That kermit rose kermit. Roosevelt went also went to harvard and also through a tried to overthrow the legal government of of iran so it's a weird thing in their family. It's a family tradition. They they sing christmas carols and they try to overthrow the shop and that concludes operation ajax entry eight six nine dot. Pr to nine zero four certificate number three nine one three one imia mna bus future ling's really amping. The world live here in the unlikely event that social media still exists in your era. It almost certainly is being used to manipulate you into feeling like you are either promos anti dig and to actually see through all the cloud and realize that in fact it is an underground market for drina crumbs. That is that is truly the motivator of the us government. It's the chemtrails that are making. You have these extreme opinions about muhammad the right. The plane's going north south are making you hate him. The plane's going east west are making you love him. I had an interesting experience. The other day. Because back when i was a real chemtrails agitator i used to tweet about chem trails and during that period of time hashtag kim's was yep was was a way that we came trailers stayed in contact with each other. And so i decided to sort of reanimate my chemtrails conversation for a little bit but hash hashtag chem and it has subsequently been co-opted by the but play community to mean. Do i wanna know. Don't know i. I've yet to figure it out. But if you don't do this if you're unless you want to you want if you want to get to the bottom of this literally but i had some people follow the hashtag kim's and it's a lot of a lot of bottom oriented action and and i don't know when that i don't know when that happened because two years ago if you take cans. It was all people spraying vinegar into the air around their house in arizona to protect them from mind. Control powder so jerry. Falwell is right like environmentalists or even turning the conspiracy theories gay. That's right it all it all ends up being. Lgbtq a training program g. q. On that's what i call it a low that's got to be alrighty. Let's take that and see what happens. I want to You hope the junior is alive. He's btcu and you can find us online at omnibus project. Social media just keeps getting worse and worse. I hated so much. There's no good side. There's no good place there really is. But let's refer people to the least bad places that's right. You can email us or tweet at us or instagram at ken jennings and john roderick you. Can you can d- d m me on instagram. with your lewd 's you can email us at the omnibus project g you can. You can find us on dischord and read it and facebook under the future. Llings moniker a delightful community delightful community until they turned against me with the ba- the baader meinhof gang. You are off the future of super paddock. Them still because it was such an incomprehensible problem that they had. My theory is that everyone had a different problem with the episode. And that's why it was incomprehensible because they were on online agreeing with each other but none of them shared the same opinion. I paid one mob to support that episode and a second mob to yell at them. I actually i paid one mob to attack episode from the left and one mob to attack that the right. That's what happened i got. I got messages for people that are like oh john roderick is an apologist for capitalism and then somebody else was like you know this. Podcast is turned into a into trotskyite information from the point of view. I got an email complaining that we because we were kind of talking about these coddled middle-class terrorist groups of the sixties and seventies that that constituted black panther and american indian movement erasure. Oh now and i had to explain that you know. We've we'll do about those. We've mentioned those groups perform. We'll probably shows about them again. But we were talking about a different kind of activists right to talk about the red army of germany in one thousand. Nine hundred seventy does not erase leonard peltier. That's correct that was my take. At least i don't know if i convince no i feel like that's odd. Take if you are superman and you want to send a bomb. Give him the address. This like a homemade bomb to to eliminate our voices from the national dialogue. You can mail that bomb to po. Box five five seven four four shoreline washington nine eight one five five hopefully with the awareness that you're bomb will kill a post office box party working postal employee. Ken is pretty adept at knowing which of the packages that arrive are bombs. They haven't haven't killed this yet. The male is kind of stacking up since we have another show for so long. What have you got over there. Bret has sent each of us a thing when he was a kid he loved. He's all he wanted out of life with. Gmc motorhome. He thought that was the future alarm. And i think he knows that this will speak to you this this hot wheels. Gm crv and a very another very apropos seventies toy for me. Because i've mentioned on the show before luke skywalker. Investment fatigues with the gun. Oh my goodness that is a very collectible. I'm sure it is. You know it's not meant box but look how good the paint job looks attractive. Belt isn't chipped or anything. I would've lost that gun in the first five seconds of owning this in nineteen eighty-one but it doesn't have a lightsaber. Well this luke does not even though this is the outfit liquid when he has his most what his his most. Memorable lightsaber duel. This particular. Luke never had lights because it was a design problem. The old ones had the little slice in the arm where you would hate it though you would thin soft plastic. That would bend. But i know your daughter is going to love. I'm gonna be luke investment fatigue. That is so cool. Your daughter will never join you. Thanks brett well this. Gmc r. v. has the palm beach paint job. And i always wished that my gmc rv had such a colorful paint job. It's not too late. But it really shows all the advantages. It's very nice rendition of a cool. Here's a couple postcards. Are trucker friends. Sparky recommends the best vegan burger in austin texas. Hey sparky no thanks. Come on austin. I'm gonna eat alpa store. I'm eating. i'm eating brisket. Not eating vegan burger. I spent too many years eating. Brisket in austin and then i realized that it's really alpes store. That's the that's what you get there. The listeners who are looking for the best burger in austin and if it's there your time he recommends plow burger a food truck parked outside. Buzz cafe thinks we may have listeners who are vegan hamburg sinti and hamburgers. So i hope these your ancestors getting shout out and john with an h. Sent us what he thought was the most omnibus postcard you've ever seen. It's some kind of field station in alaska but it appears that the transcript appears to have not just science but also a bear and an oil pipeline. Not just that is a bear touching the great alaska pipeline. Do you think you get is like a thing that your friends dare you to do. When you're young bear. I bet you won't touch the pipeline. Well the thing about the pipeline is that in order to keep the oil flowing they have to keep it warm so the pipeline itself is warm. Is that what the bears into. I don't know i'm being that bear. It's not like it can cuddle the pipeline. It's its way over ten. Who knows what bears are in into john. Indeed you probably do. I have one more thing to To remind our listeners. You're not done with your little read. This podcast is fans supported. And although. I know that. Ken is famously. A billionaire and everyone online knows that he's just walking around in three piece tweed suits but but But but wanted minute smoking jacket. The podcast itself is is funded by your support and patriotic dot com slash omnibus is where you can support the show. So please do. Ken doesn't get a penny of it. It all goes to the administration of the show star. Shell company jack roderick limited which operates out of the cia safehouse in odessa. But your support of the show allows us to keep doing it. because you know. Ken is a multimillionaire. He could be living on an aircraft carrier right now. I love your idea of what you would do. That's your default image of a multi millionaire. He's living on an aircraft. Living on an aircraft carrier with with moroccan houseboys. Doing all his work. But but yeah your support for. The show keeps. Ken interested in doing so. If you like it do you think that's a better or call to action than keep. Keep the show on the air. Keep john's lights on his key. Ken interested well. Because you've recently recently had a spate of job offers that i think are very excited and grammy nomination. That's right a grammy nomination. Which is the absolute twist of the knife in my breast but grammy nomination and then all these all these intriguing new jobs. Yeah i think. I get a lot of emails from people saying cans not going to quit the show or or other ones that can surely will quit the show and i keep saying cans got nothing going on really can is like desperate for human contact. He's going to keep doing the show as long as you support us patriot. I have no plans to leave. Omnibus unlike unlike kind of the for higher tv work. I've been doing lately this hours. That's right since ownership omnibus belongs to us and we are not workers for higher here. We didn't replace the previous hosts. Ira glass and chuck bryant right out flu. We are the small business people of this story that are keeping democracy alive in the middle east of seattle. That's actually we're kind of in the southern west of seattle but but But yeah this is. This is free enterprise here. We're the american story. Don't make a mob to your house. Can i was wearing my omnibus future. Rulings t-shirt the other day. And then i realized their new omnibus t shirts every month. And we're already halfway through january. So what's the store. We are running out of time for you to check out the two new january shirts and they are pretty good. They're both really. There's an eighty style. Eighties vibe black shirt. Which you and i are drawn in patrick. Niggles style awesome and they're both very good. Look it's it's really good. And then there's a white style t shirt in the style of seventies and eighties generic food packages in which we are. Generic podcast ingredients. Ken jennings john roderick wonders esoterica preservatives and a barcode right. I wonder what happens if you scan the code. Well one way waiting for you to be encouraged future links with barcode scanners to to order the shirt. There's also other merch available so go to omnibus project dot com slash store listeners. From our vantage point in your distant past we have no idea how long our civilization survived before probably. It was overthrown by foreign intelligence agents or chuck. Brian ira glass which podcasts. Do you believe we're going to overthrow are society it's going to be your airway and karen kilter. If it's almost certainly going to be. Joe rogan and it'll just be used corolla adam curle. We're going to send the pay. Jiro rogan descend one mob to your house and adam corolla and they're gonna fight and that'll be the end or they'll have girls on trampolines fight. We hope and pray. That catastrophe may never come because think how bad the traffic will be if the worst comes soon however this recording like all over these maybe our final word but if providence allows we hope democracy survives one more week so we get back with you soon for another entry in the omnibus.

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Shattered Presents: Mismatch

Shattered: White Boy Rick

27:44 min | 2 years ago

Shattered Presents: Mismatch

"Hey, everyone. It's Jeremy on from shattered. I'm here to tell you about another podcast that we do here Graham digital it's called mismatch. Where a veteran reporter Roger Weber lead you by the hand through some of history's most strange and surprising stories stories, you probably haven't heard before. And we're excited to play one of the new episodes from season two right now. Subscribe to mismatch wherever you get your podcasts. Somehow he had soldiered on through all of it. A bullet in the chest, a chronic illness that left him gasping for air a carriage accident that killed his bodyguard is survived charging rhinoceros and his own charge of San Juan hill. He had overcome the deaths of his wife and his mother on the same day. Theodore Roosevelt seemed invincible. Lynch. Little Lima on. But now feverish and emaciated he was ready for his life to end on the river of doubt. I'm Roger Weber. Welcome to mismatch stories of the incompatible the unsuitable and the out of step. We can debate who was our greatest president. But I think the greatest presidential story has to be teddy Roosevelt who died one hundred years ago in January of nineteen nineteen. This episode explores the last major chapter of TR's remarkable life, his bold and arguably foolish venture into an unexplored region of the Amazon a complete mismatch. Feel hundred miles of sweltering heat torrential rain, relentless insects, poisonous snakes man, eating piranhas, violent Rapids, and hostile native people red flags to be sure, but to the former president of the United States they were irresistible temptations. He's definitely close to death by the end of the trip. That's Kathleen Dalton historian and author of Theodore Roosevelt, a strenuous life. Tina Roosevelt was president of the United States from nineteen eighty one to nineteen oh nine then he runs for president again in nineteen twelve as a bull moose Progressive Party candidate and makes American history that he's the most successful third-party presidential candidate beating incumbent but losing to Woodrow Wilson, and is not quite sure what to do with himself. So in nineteen thirteen he cooks up this idea of doing a speaking tour. In Brazil, T are added to his South American trip along and reasonably safe journey on previously explored rivers, but after arriving in Brazil, he suddenly latched onto a crazy idea. He would canoe down an unknown river with Brazil's, most famous explorer Candido rundown. Helped bring the telegraph out into the Amazon and he is famous in Brazilian history. As a person who is respectful of native people and helped them be a part of the Brazilian state as expanded into their territory. Rondo and had appropriately named it. The river of doubt, he had no idea of its length or its direction. All he knew was word began getting their required. A trip with pack animals through hundreds of miles of the Arab Brazilian Highland. And it was a very hot and remote area. So even getting to the rivers dangerous. They didn't bring enough food and it was a badly. Planned exploration. Rondo knows very smart man and very capable. But I think he he was cavalier about the the food crates and TR was just so determined to have an adventure. He didn't really think about how serious they're they're bad planning would be in the long run. But writing on the long trail TR must have realized the expedition was already in deep trouble, some of the pack animals were dying and the supply crates. They had carried were abandoned Roosevelt wrote a book about the journey. This isn't his voice. But the words are his own continually as we journeyed onward under the pitiless glare of the sun or through blinding torrents of rain. We passed desolate little graves by the roadside, they mocked the last resting places of men who had died by fever or dysentery or EROs. We raised our hats as our mules plotted slowly by it's one month to reach the river of doubt. My name's Jeffrey Lehman, and I was on the Roosevelt Ron dawn, centennial scientific expedition down, the deepest of the Amazon. It was October of two thousand fourteen Lehman traveled the same river with three others, including a professor from UC San Diego. I've been on a lot of adventures Lehman hosts the public TV series, weekend explorer, and I knew that if I did it. It would be the most dangerous most. A challenging thing. I ever did in my life, and it lived up to that expectation. So here we are. First waterfall. It's been a rough day. And this waterfalls intense. No wonder Roosevelt was so odd by this. The river goes from as big as you've seen it. Two to three meters. Ten feet across had most. And at least the calendar. Two thirds of the mile, and this is the smoothest part of the whole river right here. Just spent the last two hours kind of scoping it out and putting up our tents after a long day of rowing hobbling. And. Tickets all day tomorrow. We'll make this happen. But we will. The jungle is so thick. It's like a prison and the only way out is the river. So no matter what you were thinking we had to keep going down that river. It was the only way out. On February twenty seven nineteen fourteen. Shortly after midday, we started down the river of doubt into the unknown. We had satellite imagery, we knew what we were up against. They were just paddling down river. They had no idea where the river was going. They had no idea Roosevelt's party of twenty two men included sixteen so-called Colorado's who did most of the backbreaking work. They made only six miles the first day because Colonel Ron Don ordered frequent stops to survey the river TR marveled at the dense jungle lining their route just as Lehman did at the start of his more recent trip. So here I'm on. What you can only imagine are described as like kind of the garden of Eden. It's the most primeval place I've ever been to and the light was just shining beautifully. And there's this pitch Black River, and you can just see the roiling and right in front of me. Ten feet in front of me. This pair of McCaw comes squawking flying right in front of me. I kept trying to take it all in. Because I thought you know, this is a once in a lifetime thing. This is an amazing thing. I'm seeing there's only a handful of people that have ever seen this. And I'm lucky enough to be one of those people at first Roosevelt could focus on his surroundings. The winding river was not too fast. Not until day three. At last the slow current quickened faster and faster than Tillett began to run like a mill race. And we heard the role of Rapids ahead. Roosevelt's team was paddling in seven heavy dugouts purchased from local Indians the expedition plan to use lightweight canoes that they were tossed aside when mules and oxen withered on grueling overland trip. So a dugout canoe is is literally chopped down a tree and you dig out the tree. And then you and you go in the in the canoe some of the more than a ton the dugouts road too low in the water, they were tough to maneuver, and they required a monumental effort to Portage them around Rapids. It was this huge undertaking. And so they would have to cut down. They would cut down some trees when they had to do that. And they would put the trees down. And then they would roll this thousand pound canoe by taking those rolling it along on those logs where there'd be some guy at the back that would grab the log that rolled out from under it and you'd run it back to the front. It was a bad time to be burning so many calories when their food rations have been cut the jungle was anything, but a natural cafeteria with abundant fruit and gain. Well, this is tropical climate in. Which you they they had no awareness of what they could find tropical birds are too small to eat. And you know, they might catch some fish. But would talk in Parana territory. The thing is there aren't a lot of animals in that jungle there just aren't and the the thought they would see a lot more wildlife than they did. You try to walk into that jungle even a hundred feet is a challenge. There's places where you can walk in, and you can find your way between trees and stuff like that because all lights of catered out. But for the most part, it is just a mass of of vines and plants, and they all have these thorns and stuff like that that grabbed your clothes and rip your skin. So it is it is just kind of beyond normal human experience. What that jungle is and making camp was a lot of work you had to cut it open space in pitch the tents and that that was tremendous amount of work. Plus, the insects would go after them so camping in a tropical area where everything molds over. And it's damp, and there's a lot of rain is not easy. Well, hacking away rush someone in tears camp. Disturbed a deadly. Coral snake it headed straight to Roosevelt. He stomped it. But missed the head. Luckily, the snakes fangs plunged, no deeper than TR's boot other potential killers lurked caimans Jaguars and piranhas a century later. Lehmann had a close call of his own while cooling off in the river. It felt like something jolted the funny bone of his elbow and about five seconds later. It hit me that that's an electric deal. So I knew I needed to get it out of the water. And the as soon as I kind of took a step, and I'm only twelve feet fifteen feet. Most from the from the side of the river. I get hit by a huge shock in one of my arms, and then I'm just at the drop off. So I tried to step up with one of my legs. I get shocked again and then being shot in the leg. Like that. That causes my leg to act in voluntarily. And it pushed me back made me fall back into the river. But then I was able to finally get onto the river and survived that. If Roosevelt was afraid of dying from animals or drowning or disease or starvation. He would never have admitted it before the trip he wrote to a friend that he had enjoyed a full life and was willing to leave his bones in South America. But TR was worried about the safety of the man in the lead canoe. His twenty four year old son Kermit Roosevelt. Did Kermit want to go on the sex petition in the first place? No criminal did not want to go on this expedition. He had just become engaged. He'd also just had an accident falling off a forty foot bridge and could have been killed and he had broken teeth and was seriously ill so to get letters from smother. Edith writing him saying, I know you just had an accident. You're just recently engaged, but you have to go on this trip to save your father's life. He's in a heroic mood, and it may be reckless. And he's got these underlying medical conditions. And you know, how he is. He's he wants to be one of the great explorers. And he's willing to die on this path to find this river. One of the fascinating things that you run into is Currence that you don't really expect. You have rivers feeding in from directions. You don't expect them to be feeding in from? And all of a sudden the bottom of your canoes getting buffeted by a counter current. That's going to topple you over on March fifteenth just over two weeks into the journey criminals. Canoe was sucked into a whirlpool and flipped a camaraderie name. Simplisafe disappeared in the raging. Current Kermit was also swept down the Rapids, so tears running ahead to find where the Rapids are. And he thinks his son is dead, but they pull criminal out of the water. His helmet is covering his face. But they're able to resuscitate him and he is alive, but some police ios body was never found TR realizes. That he's put his his son in harm's way in that. He doesn't really care very much if he gets out because he's so discouraged about his life and down, but to take his son into the wilderness and to have him loses will life because of bad planning. And unexpected danger is is is a really sobering. They lost kermit's canoe and the food had carried to other canoes had been destroyed after rising water broke them from their moorings. So they had to carve new dugouts and Portage them again. And again, more exhaustion more delays. They were hungry, and the insects were relentless our hands and faces was swollen from the bites and stings insect pests. Mosquitos horse flows. Fees giant ants. Termites invaded TR's tent. The eight holes in his helmet and even devoured his underwear. Theodore Roosevelt was pretty stoic guy. But the one thing he did complain about in his book was the insects about you. Yes. The insects on. I was getting bit about one hundred times a day. So I was I was just absolutely getting mauled, and they made so much noise and all of these time periods, I was typically hiding in my tent or I was covered head to toe and just part of my face exposed on the river. So even with all of that precaution. Plus using insect repellent. I was still getting bit one hundred hundred times a day. The day after kermit's accident Colonel Ron dome was walking through thick vegetation. And heard what he thought was a spider monkey he hoped to shoot it and bring back a meal to the men rundowns dog ran ahead disappeared from view and began howling in pain. He returned to his master fatally injured by two EROs. As the natives moved closer to Rondo he fired his gun in the air and ran away. So they knew that they were surrounded by native people who did not want explorers coming to their neighborhood. Do you think the natives did not attack them? Well, they tears party had guns. So that's very important. They had guns. And I think they would have been able to defend themselves at least for a while. And they stayed together. I mean, that's the other things being a party with with guns made them more formidable. Teddy Roosevelt had long been admired for his toughness, which he took to the extreme in one thousand nine twelve. A would be assassin shot him on the campaign trail bleeding from a chest wound TR delivered a ninety minute speech before going to a hospital a year and a half later. He would come even closer to death on the river of doubt on March twenty seventh canoes overturned and TR steps into the water and helps pull the canoes out. But he damages his leg just where his old leg injury that never healed from his carriage accident when he was president. So he's got a leg infection and injury. And then his malaria gets back, and he's feverish and delirious, he's got palpitation. Nations shortness of breath. He's always had a heart condition within a day. Roosevelt could barely get off his cot at the same time. The men's spirits were crushed by what they discovered ahead. The most punishing set of Rapids yet, including a thirty foot waterfall the slippery rock face on either side was nearly vertical. The river was now more obstacle than escape route. They seem stranded in this vertical mountain area of miles of Rapids. And steep hills run dawn panics and says we're all going to have to fight ourselves. One by one out of the jungle. Let's all just every man for himself cutting their way through the jungle would have been a death sentence for teddy Roosevelt and probably for all of them. They would easily have become lost. They would have been vulnerable to native people and to animals and Kermit steps up and says, no will only survive if we keep together. Back home in New York. Edith Roosevelt had no clue that her insurance policy was paying off. She had coaxed her son into joining the expedition now Kerma did everything to save his father. But could he saved TR from himself? No man has any business to go on such a trip as ours unless he will refuse to jeopardize the welfare of his associates by any delay caused by a weakness or ailments of his it is his duty to go forward. If necessary on all fours until he drops. TR bigs Kermit just leave me I'm a burden. Go ahead and people who are afraid that he'll take the company's morphine supply and kill himself. And so he has to tear has to be watched around the clock. And because he really feels as though he's a drag on party Kermit of fights with every inch of his life to keep his father alive. Kermit convinced the others that he could lead them through the gorge, they discarded more supplies and carried what remained over the steep hills. The dugouts were lower down the Rapids with ropes. It's four days for me. The hero of the exploration trip is Kermit Roosevelt. But they weren't out of the jungle yet clearly as they have less food, and it becomes more dangerous. They're living on half rations and just palm hearts. They're basically starving. Jeffrey Lehman during. His centennial expedition had plenty of food. He still lost a lot of weight. The exertion was similar to running a marathon every single day and over the twenty three days, I lost about twenty three pounds. Even with all that food. I was eating Roosevelt lost about a third of his body weight. He went from about two hundred twenty five pounds. If I remember correctly to about one hundred sixty five pounds, one of the comer autos named Julio was caught stealing food that enraged his supervisor who punched him in the face when the supervisor later accused him of laziness Julio grabbed a rifle and shot him. He lay in a huddle in a pool of his own blood where he had fallen shot through the hot. I feared that Julio had run a muck and intended to take more lives. Roosevelt, though, still severely ill helped place the body in a riverside grave. He was relieved to learn Julio had dropped the rifle during his escape as if there was any place to escape to three days later the murderer called out from the jungle asking to rejoin the group. He was ignored standing guard would be an additional and severe burden on the weary. Honest men already exhausted by overwork the expedition was in peril. Sent two men to look for Julio. But they couldn't find him. He apparently died in the wilderness. Nineteen of the original twenty two men were left struggling and wondering if they lived to tell the story at least half of them, including Kermit, battled fever, TR's, leg wound had been cleaned and lanced, but was still badly infected. He was giving some of his food to the hardworking Colorado's though, he desperately needed it for himself on April fifteenth, the expedition finally caught a break and they've find this rubber shack. And after all these days, they realize they've mitt civilization again, and they're able to get food and medical supplies, and basically get into the the main part of the Amazon it it's ver- Accurist that they survive this trip one of the locals pedaled closer and couldn't believe that the frail man in the canoe had been president of the United States when the fifty five year old Roosevelt arrived home in may Americans were shocked by his. His weight loss. Futile Roosevelt died. Five years later in nineteen nineteen did the river of doubts shorten his life. Absolutely. Because it worsened his fever hurt his immunities in the last years of his life. He was Macy. It'd he had he was hospitalized dealing with a lot of just general weakening. During the expedition the river of doubt was renamed the Roosevelt river, Kathleen Dalton and Jeffrey Lehman share one concern, deforestation and development threaten that wild place and it needs to be preserved. But they have different opinions about what Roosevelt did there. Improve that TR cared more about proving his masculinity and going on these boyish adventures, then he did about the social problems. He left at home. He was a major progressive voice in nineteen twelve nineteen thirteen. So what does he do instead of staying with the Progressive Party, which was did have people in congress and was trying to be a third party voice for for helping poor people helping workers helping women get a vote. What does he do? He has to go off and be an adventure. Because he has all this unfinished business, you know, what's wrong with a guy who does. I think it's reckless and self-indulgent you have to love Roseville. I you just especially as in explore like myself, you have to love Roosevelt Roosevelt, had some huge flaws that few people talk about and I'm very familiar with those. But I have tremendous respect for theater, but with that said, and and also with the backdrop of he'd been on a lot of fantastic expeditions in the past keep it off more than he could chew. But in typical Roosevelt's in manner never complained or said a word to that effect. And he just sucked it up and made it happen. Roosevelt. Made a lot ham in nineteen fourteen. A few months after his greatest ordeal. His greatest accomplishment was unfolding. It happened about halfway between that tras river and his home in New York. The opening of another waterway the Panama Canal. The same stubborn drive that put Theodore Roosevelt in harm's way. Also put him on mount Rushmore teddy. You should have the last word credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena whose faces marred by dust, and sweat and blood who strives valiantly who heirs who come short again. And again because there is no effort without error and shortcoming who at the best knows in the end, the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails at least fails while daring greatly. So that his play shall never be with those cold. And timid souls who Nye the no victory, no defeat. Mismatch is produced by Zach Rosen and written narrated by me Roger Weber much of the information. This podcast is from Candace Millar book the river of doubt, our thanks to Jason Cole Thorpe who supplied the voice of teddy Roosevelt, by the way. If you wanna see some great photos of that river, check out our website mismatch, podcast dot com. Thanks for listening to mismatch.

Theodore Roosevelt Roosevelt Roosevelt Kermit Theodore Roosevelt Rapids Jeffrey Lehman president Amazon Rondo Roosevelt river Roger Weber Progressive Party United States bites and stings Brazil fever Black River Kathleen Dalton violent Rapids tras river
Episode 259  The Jakarta Method

The Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove

1:06:35 hr | 10 months ago

Episode 259 The Jakarta Method

"We need to talk about ideas, good ones and bad ones. We need to learn stuff about the world. We need an honest, intelligent thought, provoking and entertaining view of what the hell happened on this planet in the last seven days we need to sit back and listen to the Iron Fist and the Belleville Glove. Dealers now. Heightening to saved. And are really high connaught. And I get really angry if somebody. Misleads or deceives me. When I should have now in Betta. I shouldn't be not a wicked eyup. Facility ease we've been told a story of ant, the United States and its activities around the world. The story was that they won the war. The help the countries I defeated. Along the way after the would. I defeated the. The Evil Communists and I. Encourage the will to pursue freedom and democracy. That they are initiative and drive created new industries and I deserve this success. The most of the seventy years we were subjected to anti Soviet propaganda. Is If that would devils who seated evil communism around the world. The demise of the Soviet Union. The focus has shifted to China. John is not perfect, is indeed deeply flawed and I certainly do not want to leave under a Chinese rule. But it is a mistake decided that the Chinese other bad guys. The Americans of the good guys and we should therefore support in the Americans. The truth is the. Bad guys. And we should follow my line path. Many people look at the US. I see his suing the principles of. Truth Justice, freedom and equality. But the opposite is true in the proof of this is in America's foreign policy I've lost seventy years. Today many people speculate that if unchecked China could flex its power and control and subjugates Mola, countries. That it could force, its will communist agenda onless powerful countries. That if necessary would kill gile and terrorize vast populations to achieve times. The listener the terrible truth is the for seventy years the US I. Has Been Conducting. The same sort of terrorism campaign that we fear, the Chinese will start. Mice people are on a way of just. HOW BADLY AMERICA'S HIVED! I've recently just completed reading a book cold the. Jakarta method. By Vincent Bevan's and In recent I lost fees offered some interesting books I think. Some of the most influential one of them would have been the shock doctrine by Niamey Klein. In the divide by Jason Hickel. And all right I write this book. The Jakarta method, but Vincent Bevan's wrought up. The with is on top handfuls of books. That's. That's. Extremely important at such an important story to tell in a highly recommend the go out and bought. One I'm going to do in this podcast is. He's basically. Look what he said in the book and rely a lot of that to you. And try and pint of picture of of exactly what the US has been up to. I've lost seventy years. Said hopefully, none of you listening to this podcast will ever again suggest the Erica stains for the principles of truth Justice Freedom, equality. It will necessarily be an account of of the bad things that the US has done. and. In the context of comparing the US in China for example. In this podcast on a list of all the bad things challenge done. This is a bit of a history lesson. I've a what the US is being up to. as part of its foreign policy for the last seventy years. and. We'll go into some detail of some of the stuff that we've really brushed ever in this podcast in the LAS obvious so pleased with this book that I'm going to be. Taking, what from the bottom? The Jakarta MIFID Vincent Bevan's? Please read it. Read it twice. Many join this podcast because you reject the nonsense of religious dogma, and you pride yourself on being rational enough to spot snake, oil, salesmen and clerical close. I'm asking you to. I've AECOM seventy years of pro US indoctrination. Just as you kind two thousand years of religious doctrine nation so. Again to emphasize I'm not saying you should be pry China. Um, sign that powerful manipulators piney picture of China and you need to constantly assists. What is likely to be tree in what is likely to be false and Aden things likely to be true. You need to say what is fair. Criticism in what is a beat up I. Have Nothing. And when you find real and terrible challenge behavior darkness that the Mirror of the American response. Is The answer now. The treaties that the Americans have probably already done something just as bad. The answer doesn't have to be America. So. Let's start. In this book. Vincent. Starts Bicycling Post will to. And the world's to. Go to new global. Europe Spain wakened badly by the war, and the planet is broken into places. We've got a lot of. Former, colonial POWs that have been broken badly so. They have got territories which they used to control. That were either taken by the Japanese and they want to regain control law. The case of the Japanese they controlled territory, and that's Nasdaq, and often. There's a lot of territory in the will that was previously controlled by colonial pals that sadly the people have got a sniffer freedom. In terms of the world we've got the first world, which is the advanced Western countries we've got the second world, which is basically the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc and we've got the third world, which is. People who with very few expects exceptions had leaped onto the control of European colonialism cy. In nineteen fifty, that was about two thirds of the world's population. So I. Will to. President Truman. Highlighted Communism. And he had a problem in grace. There was a civil war. As great communists who had fought against the Nazis were going well. In Trim and wanted to interfere. So. He came up with what became known as the Truman Doctrine. In, the Truman doctrine walls as he was quite telling Congress quite. It must be the policy of the United States to support free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities will by outside pressures. That's basically. The US is in toddler Guinea involved in other countries. So. That was his doctrine, which was used as a reason for. Taking action against the Communists in the Greek civil war. and. Allied to that at the same time as sort of anticommunist President Truman, we had Will, he had to get domestic support You've got a country that's already banged awards. Probably war want solids, boys I'm doesn't want to necessarily get involved in anymore and. Is the advisor trimming was that in order to get the American people inside? You need to scare the hell out of the American people about communism. Scare them enough then they'll come on board with whatever you want to do to bring it down. So this helped. Kick off McCarthyism. which was driven by the president in the FBI and nine after Senator Joseph McCarthy Who with the House UNAMERICAN activities commission. Led a wall search for communists in the US government. So. The Truman doctrine were allowed to interfere in other countries. McCarthyism let's look full communists wherever we can fall in them. And all night I mix. It became accepted fact that the cyber threats with pushing for revolution worldwide. That wherever communist with prison that will plotting to overthrow the government? And that we're doing so on the older of the cyber threats as part of a vast global conspiracy to destroy the waist. Now, when you actually look at the history, a lot of these countries. More often than not the Soviet latest, she was telling Communist groups in various countries to take it easy dined. Create, a revelation, trying lick with the government's trying to get a foothold as part of the the government intends of coalitions in not to actually. Create revolutions in in fact, they even told now that top to back off and dunked to just work with. The government of the die in any end. To different approach, but Vista, the notion that the was signed a little communist friends around the world yet, boys. Having in a revolution when the chains that is just not the case, but that was the theory. Now this book is entitled. The dichotomy and such can spend a little time looking at Indonesia and Australia and dealers and I'll have to face that until recent times on you nothing about invasion, history and unfunny at Fascinating Hynde. Darris at how little previously new the AD a country! That's an northern Aiba and obviously sound important side. WE'RE GONNA LEARN TO BE. Easier in this one. So. Early Indonesia Indonesia had been controlled by the Dutch the centuries in in mobile to Japan took control. After the war. The touch thought I could just move back in. So there a war of independence as you would expect with the locals said. And Gone Cold Sakano. He took power in doing so he. He sort of clashed with the Communists. and eventually expelled the Dutch in nineteen forty nine, so he was a fairly independent monitored guide side laced in. He didn't want formal alliances with Russia or America, but he had enough credit points from fighting the communists in order to gain power that Americans were with him. So, that's early Indonesia. We're going to move in a timeline here. D Listener. We're going to scoot around the world. Working out wide through the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, and end an inducting back and forth amongst these countries signed. That sets up early early Indonesia for. Let's move ahead now to nine fifty, three and Iran. and. We've got I new president at that point is and. WHO! Had appointed the Dallas brothers into significant positions Appointed John Foster Dallas said as secretary of state in tapped younger brother Allen, Dallas delayed. The Cei- and these guys are obsessed with. Finding and fighting communism wherever. They, sword, and. Basically. In Iran. I mean look at Iran to die in in what we've got with this Islamic theocracy that's in control. It all comes back to what happened. Naughty fifty three with US intervention. Bicycling. A duly elected Prime Minister Muhammad Muscle Dick. Had Control of the country. and. At that time the British oil companies head at righteous deals with. keeping all of the money that the Mike in from oil, our extracting from Iran and these deals that were done with with corrupt dictators from previous eras so. This happens a lot in developing the will. D Not where? You'll find that. You've got oil-rich countries while countries that are rich in natural resources that lodge multinational corporations. Cut Deals with corrupt dictators. Then duly elected, progressive reformers mean IVA Thri the dictators. And then talk to these multinationals and say that deal is not fair. We can't continue on that basis. We can come to a more reasonable deal. But you can't have that deal because it is just ridiculous. Andy Listener in. In Law if you make deals With people who are incapable because I don have authority. those deals get get. quashed. It's a similar situation here. These companies have got nice sympathy for them. They ny deals that were grossly unfair to the countries that I would dealing with. Dealing, they got them because of corrupt practices by. dictators at the time Cy. have sympathy for these companies at all. They did all this work develop stuff. And now it's taken off them. Anybody who enters into. Deals like this has to do so on the understanding eventually when the people gun control of the country, the going to cannon and want something different side. That's part of what happens when you as a as A. As a corrupt international company deal with a corrupt dictator and Mike a corrupt deal. You have to expect that some point. It's going to get either throng. Anyway back to Iran so most Dick. He! He basically wanted to cut a deal with with the British oil. Company and I just wouldn't come into by win prepared to budget all and initially the US was not interested in helping the British and basically like come on, guys. You know this is not. This is not a fair deal. You can't really expect to hang onto that but. They were convinced that. In fact. It was something that I wanted to get involved with. And now this is not conjecture. This is not. Fanciful stuff in some sort of smokey conspiracy that ninety really can be sure about like. This is established fact that the US. Through! Its CIA agent Kermit Roosevelt. Took enormous steps to create havoc in Iran, and he had a million dollars to spend Hey, and the CIA broad every politician that I could. Buy looked for a general willing to take Iva. Ending stole the Shah Tida. The CIA Pied Street thugs strongmen in circuits performance to wrought in the Straits they created pamphlets and Pastas, proclaiming that Mosig was a communist an enemy of Islam so. And, I hide gangsters to pretend to be. Members of muscle aches, party and attack a mosque so. They basically went around with a massive propaganda campaign against Moscow Dick and and in the end successfully overthrowing. What we end up with the shower of your? The Shah who they installed who obviously became unpalatable to the people we ended up with the I taller coming in, and we ended up with the Iran of today like it's all a direct result of the US interference. In that country and this isn't fanciful stuff. We know the case. So that guy, you've the US some sense of success because. I could say that they could change. The government of country. With with a few street thugs in a propaganda campaign and enough money. And tap the people on the Shalva. You could change government. So that was Iran nodding fifty three. Let's cross the will to Guatemala Prior to World War Two. There was a pro Nazi dictator. He corruptly five, the landed aristocracy and foreign corporations. In knowing forty four, there was a revolution. And more progressive government managed to get a tie hauled. Managed to get power, so that was not forty four suspected the time that the US government was too busy looking at the Dealing with signaled water sort of pie much attention to what was happening in Guatemala so any line rather progressive group gets into pairing nine forty four. In owning fifty to. The government, the democratically elected one. wanted to into a process of land reform. And what they wanted to do was. BACK UNUSED LANE IN PIE official value. So. They, basically signed two groups like the United Fruit Company. You've got land at it. Know you're not using in the books you've got it listed this baillieu. Way GonNa pay you for that lane because we want APP, peasants and people to be able to use it. Now the United Fruit company wasn't happy because it's been it in its books undervalued. It's lane in order to avoid tax. In. The government at the time Guatemala the Communists were part of the government coalition. But the government was clearly drawn to take. Guatemala to Fullwood as a modern capitalist state today it had. Ended Communist as part of its coalition, but. It was definitely on the track of being a modern communist. A modern capitalist state. Side but you not afraid company complained of a Communist threat. which was completely unwarranted? In this case with the United Fruit Company. That particular company had deep ties with Washington side. This is from wikipedia. The relationship between the Eisenhower Administration in the United Company demonstrated the influence of corporate interest in US foreign policy. So John Foster Dulles mentioned before. He was a member of a law firm which had represented United Fruit his brother Alan Director of the C.. I was a board member of United Fruit. United Fruit. Company's the only company now to have a CI Krypton. The brother of the assistant secretary of staife into near say is. At, once, being president of the United Fruit. And Its principal lobbyist was married to is in house personal secretary, so many people who directly influenced US policy towards Guatemala. Had direct ties to the United Fruit company so. The company said. They Communist and The had all these. People, in Washington who are deeply connected with them. and. That was enough. So, what did America do well? The basically my three coup attempts, and it was the one that worked so. What I really wanted to create a pretext for intervention cy. The! Really wanted some sort of excused coming and interfere in the country. So, The the president at the time uncovered the planes full the third coup attempt in even publish them in the Guatemalan price, but the see I was side, confident That they organized Tony. Rebel force around General Carlos Castillo Amas in basically. The US dropped bombs on the capital of Guatemala now these. bums nicknamed so foss will sulfite laxatives, because they job is not to do damage, but to make the president and everyone around himself ride. That would fill it paints so. This the US got to actually dropping bombs on the Guatemalan capital, and the president realized that the US was determined to to asked him said he contemplated giving in. and. At the time line, it was a twenty five year old Argentinian doctor living in Guatemala. City at the time nine to Shaggy Vera. Volunteered to go to the front and he'll. fought the rebels. But instead the president resigned in handed I of a payout to a colonel as who was head of the armed forces. And D has had said to the president that he had an understanding from the North Koreans that if he took Pale then it will be I think. So, he took pal. And What happened was. A few days after this general took POW say. Is Tyson chief John Dougherty? Set Him Dan, said let me explain something to you. You might a big mistake when you guy but the government. You're not convenient for the requirements of American foreign policy and this Jan was shot in the ASTA. The ambassador himself in the best, said not. You're not the main and. In fact, show Ds, a long list of Guatemalans who would need to be shot immediately? Indiana's the general said why. And the ambassador. said. because they call me this. This is the sign investor who had been transferred from Greece. So. Castillo Armas. The US five or took Iva. And Ran Up in executed between three thousand and five thousand supporters of the President of the likes of the president. We've got the US bombing the country in schooling. It's fine dictator. And giving a list of nine to kill. Can you imagine if? This is the sort of thing. People think China would do today. That's Guatemala. It gets worse for Guatemala, but we'll go on. Shaggy, Vera Lynn and listen from that he learned. He need to fight to. Our. He hit it off to Mexico. Let's trouble back to Indonesia. Kana was president. We had an on wheel parliamentary system with several coalition partners including the Communist. And in the nineteen fifties the Communist Party the P. Kyw. was improving all the time largely because they were the least corrupt in the nice helpful to the people. So. At that town. Sakano said was quite independent minded, and he didn't mind getting a bit of lip to the US and the US decided he'd made to be to for them say they decided to hold. He's the C.. I decided to hold cicadas to the fallout so. In nineteen, fifty seven. The US started arming reveals to create problems in Indonesia. Just tend to the wrong part of the book. Basically Bombs started being dropped pipelines on Indonesian military and commercial shipping village on vessels. On the fifteenth of mine explosions hit a market killing by morning shoppers. In Christians attending church. Actual bombs being dropped by real lines. And the US was denying that it had anything to do with it. Our rebels who doing it's not us. In fact. The New York Times at the because the the the Indonesians signing. US You can stop doing this. What are you doing in the US of science? Not Us then he'll times. Lambasted CICADA and his government in a mine on editorial fidel cutting. The issue is that the US would intervene in the conflict. Well. Nineties lighter. The Indonesians managed to shoot down one of the planes. Captured the pilot. Is Nine was Alan Lawrence pipe a CIA agent. The pilots taking off from Singapore and Obviously CI. Agents dropping bombs and helping the rebels against. So. At that point. The The US decided. Well we've been cool in such. An obvious fashion will pull back from this obvious method that we're using here with silicon and. What they realized was that the military was the why guy in a situation like Indonesia sight. To improve they. Their relationship with the Indonesian military. Sakano was in a juggling act he was. He had a communist. The PK I. Who will popular with the people? He was having to juggle a demands. He had the Indonesian Armed Forces. Who will largely? Anti Communist. And remembering that all of them I had been in the beginning very prior nationalist, they mind. Deal, at the beginning was to get rid of the Dutch side I rolled together at that point in getting rid of the Dutch and then the differences. So the US to saw to use. The Indonesian Armed Forces to construct an eighty communist front now. What I did was I started inviting Indonesian soldiers for training in the US I mostly at Fort Leavenworth. So? Non and fifty four over twelve soldiers trying in the US USI from Indonesia. Fifty eight at the time of this sort of bombing that I mentioned when the show town there was zero. A year later, there were forty one Indonesian soldiers trying in the US, I. In boy nine threes on to that there was at least a thousand. Indonesian. Soldiers training in the US. And they obviously being trying In warfare, but they will side being indoctrinated into. Americanisms and In particular anticommunist sentiment. So. Also that taunts Sakata had to give the military extra panelist deal with is rebels in those the military. As a result of that got involved in all sorts of other things, fishing farming in construction so military than. Got Extra, pay out. They had all sorts of businesses the Dow. A conducting in that becomes important lighter on in east team, or if we get to that in the story on the show if we will. But, basically the military were very to give away east team because they were making money out of these team will. site. That's the setup in Indonesia where the Americans. Dropped some bombs CEI-. Agent cooled red-handed interfering and the US. let's get with the. the armed forces and will spend a few years. American using them. That's bubbling align the background. Meanwhile nine sixteen, the con God. The congas I elected prime minister was Patrice Lumumba. Immediately faced with the breakdown of order. There was an army revolt wall suspicious groups from the mineral rich crumbs of Tanga. By then the in Belgium paratroopers. The colonial Powell returned supposedly to restore security. Sally wins in election duly elected immediately. Kyle is the caring. Mumba fight full mystic! He turned to the side Union. Fulfil this set of panic in London Washington. Who'd feed? The Siamese would get a foothold in Africa much the done in Cuba. In the White House president is now hill. The National Security Council meeting in the summer of nineteen sixty. In, which at one point he turned to his say I. Director News The would eliminated intense of what he wanted done with Lumumba. The CIA got to work came up with a series of planes ranging from snipers to poisoned to paste to get rid of the leader. By carry out because the CIA man on the ground Larry Devlin said he was reluctant to see them through in the end. The Mumba was killed by troops loyal to Joseph Mobutu. Who was the CIA backed I'm chief. this will happen. Three days before giant kind was sworn in. By Szekely. Lumumba was killed before the CIA could get to him. An army chief. Backed by the CIA. Mobutu took over the second largest country in sub. Saharan Africa stage public. of his rivals built a dictatorship became out of America's closest allies in Africa. These are the sorts of things that people are worried. The China Middle Day. America has already done. We neither did it's on. The record swam back nine sixty. Kita nineteen sixty one. Giant kyw actually inherited the by you've pigs, invasion plans. The mercenaries would training in Guatemala. SHAG AVERA was on its Munis in Cuba, and he wasn't a bad to allow a repeat of Guatemala. Side a by of Pigs was disaster. And the US I had taken such public hit on that they couldn't do the the same thing again so nothing is public as that so. ironically. Food is after the invasion SA-. Khanna Indonesia visited Washington But he didn't bring up the parallels with what the with what had happened to him to non fifty eight with the US bombing. He's He's on encountering. Stealing nine and sixty one Iraq. Outside of Indonesia. The largest communist party was in Iraq. The Iraqi communist contemplated Iva throwing the Dick Tida al.. Qassim. But the it's advised against it. Washington backed a successful coup by the anticommunist Ba'ath party which immediately crushed the Communist. slowed. UNTOLD NUMBERS With a chief torture of being Saddam sign. That across the world, stealing nine, sixty, one, nine, sixty to resume. My South American countries Had to try the Spanish, but Brazil was Portuguese. And the Portuguese rule family had fled to Brazil united nights seven when Nepal when Napoleon invited. The had been a long serving left-wing. Voss prison and cold God became president in nineteen sixty one he. He promoted such righteous things such as universal vibrating. Increased Literacy and landforms. He visited President Kennedy inaudible, sixty two and shortly afterwards Kennedy met the US Ambassador to Brazil and agreed to spend millions of dollars on anti Django plans for the election. To prepare the ground for a military coup, if necessary because I saw him as a Communist. So Money Porty in. More subtly than in Guatemala and Iran. That's the Blink Y. Ninety sixty three, Vietnam. Kennedy ordered the Ambassador in South Vietnam to facilitate the removal of President Diem. The scene I passed the would down to a local general. Said, damn was kidnapped and killed whereas giant CACTUS wanted him removed not killed. A few weeks later, jive was killed. Back to Brazil. So, there was a coup led by General Humberto Castelo Branco. WHO HAD TRAINED GATEWAY? Fort Leavenworth you signed. So? The coup was non sixty four Django fled to Uruguay. Began US State Department began operation dubbed brother. Same at my tank is ammunition and aircraft carriers available to the conspirators. These not needed. I mean Jenga was a Julie elected? Leader. In the US doesn't give a shit. Brazil was different in that the US interference was obvious than previous ventures, and it was my easier because Brazil had a unique sort of anticommunist culture as a result of its history back in the thirties. As. A result of that Brazil would not hall now the Democratic Election for twenty five years. Back to Indonesia, nine, sixty three. Remember? We've got the Has had at least two thousand soldiers a Yeeha being trained by the US. So known and sixty-three, nearly a third of the country's registered voters will pk all affiliates Communist affiliates. The peak by the PK I had been peaceful. The head no arms. And had my vice because at that stage they win. Any elections economy was was running what he called a God democracy meaning a dictatorship. The military was anticommunist and allied to the Muslims and was increasingly powerful. So I. Took on the United Kingdom. Either Malaria side the Yucai at created Malaysia but had excluded Singapore. The reason I did that was. They didn't want. Timmy Chinese Communist sympathizers in Malaysia so I- segregated Singapore yeah. So the US supported the Yucai. In return for the UK supporting the US in Vietnam. San Much for freedom Sakano became. Publicly Eighteen American and American I dried up. Except why kind of money for the Indonesian Army? which the Americans? That was flowing very freely so? At that time off, Vietnam. The US destroy maddox was in Vietnamese waters It violated the International Twelve Mall limit and Ivan fire on three. Vietnamese patrol boats. Two days lighter. Fought their iron shadows creating excuse for. Thousand Minds Johnson to start a full war in Vietnam. Imagine if we say that and had used China instead of Yusei. Chinese. But we don't seem decide the USA. So three lighter Sukarno established relations with high teaming government just so annoyed with the arrogance, and it was prickly, so he's he's signed stuff you. Can, you can start, but I'm to be bites with it mean. An actually most Indonesians agreed with Cana because they cherish the the idea of independence from colonial power. They recognized Vietnam. Having got rid of the. Well originally occupied by the French. With, fighting for their freedom in in the Indonesians had done exactly the same thing. The directly after the Second World War. Say That quite sympathetic to what Vietnam was trying to do. At the time the US. I had a really good guy ambassador. Cool jeans, who just can't seem to have been a decent guy who understood Indonesia? Into undestood the communists were actually just socialists who were progressive and trying to do the right thing within the system. So they really good. Guy John's because that ready to take action. And what they really wanted. the say, I m I seeks wanted to goad the Indonesian communist into a premature coup that could provoke an army response. We get to an event. The thirtieth of September nineteen sixty five in Indonesia. and. Australia New Nabi vent. I didn't know better until very recent toned. It's embarrassing. This story and This particular incident that I'm going to describe. I mean fifty five years later and we still be sure exactly what happened. I'm going to give you the version from. Vincent! Devon's book the Jakarta method. There are Outta versions at the make up your mind. So thirtieth September nineteen sixty five Indonesia. Six generals were captured and killed by a rebel group in the army. Tried to get seven, but got six. It was. Most likely. It was an internal on movement that the the PK. I the PK High Communists did not help organize. It's it seems very plausible. That Sahata Nazi. Kanye's a new character Suharto. Was General A lower ranking general in the infant in the Indonesian military. It seems plausible. It's hot. I planed infiltrated the group to engineer his rise to power. Because everything, Sahata, did you? Tiber suggests he was executing an anticommunist counterattack plan that had been developed in advance, not simply reacting crisis so. These rebels tried to capture the top seven generals. Got Six of them. The rebels would quickly captured dealt with. General killed intron down well. Even the reminding seventh general was high ranking. Sahata I just took control in the way that a man you. What was happening? in advance would take control. And, he blamed the communist straight up. It said it's the PK on, and you might fanciful stories. They awarded being done what the what the peak I communist were planning to do. Need demonized the PK AOI described. The generals are being tortured and have. Will be dealt with and described really gruesome things in and said this is what these communist going to do to the rest of us. And and. He beat up a propaganda, a bad communist involvement in that. Uprising! Siamese side to die Indonesians celebrate the anniversary as of an anti communist national ritual. If there were any communist involved. In that plot. Would have been the top handful. At most of The Communist leadership, and certainly not. A million Indonesians. Anyway, Very early on the us-backed. Sahata this incoming, general either CICADA. and. With the PK Communist pint is evil in CICADA. Basically they ran a propaganda campaign through the the media. Painting, the Communists is evil in Kana. The all guy had to support the military with its anti PKI rhetoric. Because emergence had been stood up so much that if if Sakano would sit all come on, it's not really the case. Nobody would've swallowed it and he's having to do with a military coup cohere essentially. He's trying to cling onto PR say. Bake high communist I can. Anyway. The army then proceeds to torture ripened slowdown every communistic good fine. Mass killings. Readers starting to bank up and be blocked by the number of bodies. Did in the rivers. People were arrested. disappeared. In, no one was sure what was happening. This is one of the things like people would be rounded up and taken ally in their families wouldn't know what had happened. That went short. I've dated what had happened to them. There was this there was a sense of just not knowing so. That was a big part of it. All, so the Muslim Youth Wing helped out. Now US officials might clear. That Sukarno had to be removed. And the attacks on US investments had to be halted. In Bali. Five percent of the population was executed over few months fulfill. With a political party that had been tightly legal in mind stream just weeks earlier. The Communist by the Kayak was a legitimate, just political party in Indonesia. But if you any links to that party after this event, your rounded up and disappeared. You could have been just an ordinary. Union organizer shop floor is to get better conditions here in the organizing. Sing alongs at said Dino. Function like just the most. Innocent of people would look up as a supposedly part of the plotters of killing these six generals. Anyone Sakata I was forced to resign and at that time the western press. was basically repeating the narrative piddle by the new government and just sign. It was inexplicable tribal violence that had broken out in irrationally outburst. Deal is. Between Five, hundred thousand and a million people were slaughtered. And? A million mole will put into concentration camps. All I view as trying. These military in modified the Mindy Communist, but yeah I didn't actually do it themselves to die, won't. US assistance snaps from Wikipedia Bradley Simpson Director of the Indonesia. East Documentation Project at the National Security Archives. Contains that. Declassified documents indicate that the United States provided economic, technical and military I to the army soon after the killing started and continued to do so long after it was clear, a widespread slaughter was taking place in northern Sumatra and other places. In the expectation, that US assistance would contribute to this. Thir- The evidence for this funding has been substantiated by cable was sent from Ambassador Grain after meeting. The say is who Tova. The Assistant Secretary of State Bill Bundy. One advocating full payments to be sent to Anti Communist fighter Adam Malik. Reading from the the cable. This is confirmed my. Concurrence that we provide Malik with fifty million repairs been ten thousand dollars. Fraternities of the Gap Gestapo Movement the army. But the civilian stopped group is still carrying burden of current repressive efforts. L., willingness to assist him in this matter will I think represent in Malaysia. Mind our endorsement of his present role in the army's anti PK our efforts. And promote good cooperating relations between him in the army. The, chances of detection, subsequent revelation of support in this instance are as minimal as any black flag oppression candidate. Other cables from grain to the State Department suggested that the United. States played a role in developing elements of the Anti Communist propaganda following the. Alleged ACC- PIQUIONNE activities. In a cable from October fifth quite we can help Shaik developments to our advantage spread. The story of PK is guilt, tree and brutality. He went decided it would welcome the awoke goal to blacken the of Pie in the eyes of the people. Side, the US was funding civilian murderers who carrying at Omni assassinations and admitted its help in this terrible propaganda campaign, the pilot a picture of p-a-k Communis. That then encouraged Indonesians to kill them. It gets worse again from wikipedia. In Minority Noni, the Stein used service published a study by journalists. Kathy Kettani we tied lauded significant US involvement in the killings. Kadena quoted Robert Martins hoodwinked. The US embassy assigned that Sane. US diplomats and Officials. Provided least of approximately five thousand nine of communist operatives to the Indonesian army, while it was hunting down and killing members the Communist Party of Indonesia. And alleged sympathizers. Martin's told Cadena that quote. It really was a big help to the army. They probably killed a lot of people. Probably have a lot of blood on my hands, but that's not all bad. This is Tom, and you have to strike hard at a decisive moment. In quite. Godina I write that approval for the release of ninth journalist kind from top US. Embassy officials. Marshall Grain and deputy chief of Mission Jack. Liederman And political section chief, it would cost. This stuff in the Shiites about this. Essentially this compelling evidence that the US provided the Indonesian. With a list to help them out. Because in the of the US, was surprising hail. The Indonesian army was in terms of finding the communist to kill Sally. The helped him out. Again. This is the sort of thing that we think China might get up to if. It's already happened. It's it's terrible. This morning show not too bad then. So. The incoming guy. He consolidates his rule. and. American companies like General Electric, American Express Caterpillar and Goo deal all explore business opportunities while one million Indonesians iron concentration camps. Comparable to what you'd find or imagined in the Soviet Union. Let's cross I have to Chile nineteen seventy. Salvadorian die one narrowly inaudible seventy. He was a socialist and amongst intellectual. Henry Kissinger. National Security Adviser to Nixon said. I don't I don't see why we need to stand by. What country got communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people? Are really more from. This book the. One thing about this book is. Obviously guys in a much more daytime, but he also paints pictures from ordinary people at the time and follows their personal experiences which Really adds the story and. This might be sad and just angry. The signed sign-on at what had happened to these people. Kissinger also said I want to work on this on military relations putting more money on the Economic Saad. We wanted to give him call ticky. We'll be very cool and very correct, but doing these other things. A real message to Allende now this knowing impression should be permitted in Latin America that they can get away with this. Now Impression In Latin America that you can elect a leftist government is what Kissinger assigned? This is from the country. Truth Justice equality. Anyway. They apply in economic squeeze. This is the template that's currently being used by the Lai in Venezuela Sandwich Law Combat Mature Act. This is the sort of exact. Chilean. Thing again. So the US. is encouraging the military in Chile. In I start with you on a plane. which cycle in within the military the Jakarta planned? To kill around ten thousand people. And in the capital of July. You start saying graffiti on the Wolves Jakarta's coming. So A is a real saints in the country the. Military tai-chi is is going to happen, and because I've seen it alive. I've seen it happening in these other countries. But the head of the military at the time was actually. Very sympathetic to the constitution. He was like Nye. The constitution says this is going to be president, so he is. While he was killed. Replacement was also sympathetic to the Constitution and let the end I continue. But? when he resigned, he immediately hopped to Buenos areas to get the country because he knew he was up. So, he left and went to Benetton to Buenos Aires. Lighter, he was assassinated. So inte-. General Pinna shy, who then becomes the hit of the military. We all know what happened September eleven nine, hundred, seventy three. I ends up barricading himself in. I think it was the pound Montoya or something like that and. Shot himself. And finish. I went ahead and killed around three thousand people. Known as many as ten, thousand died unusually planned on. Again enormous. US Hill offered to the military. and. You can just hear it in the woods that we've got from. Nixon end. Actually that last said before was from Nixon not from Kissinger. Let's move either to Cambodia. America organized a coup to a to get rid of Prince Sihanouk and installed lawn knol. During his rule, you is bombed Cambodia indiscriminately killing hundreds of thousands of people mostly peasants in a futile attempt to stop the Vietnamese communist moving through the countryside. United States three times the tonnage. Of Bombs on Cambodia as was dropped on Japan and would. That include the atomic bombs. Narrative organized a coup against Prince San okay, I said. The acid prince threw his support behind the Kamei Route Ninety. Anyone's faulting long on the US army. And, we all know. That! But did you buy? Genuine on seventy nine. Is after I'd started the Command Rouge Phil because the Vietnamese realized what was happening. And the Cambodians to cry their government. The US tries to recognize at the UN. The remnants of the Chimera Rouge rather than the Vietnamese allied government. Is Yon Back to the Kim My ruse wellm. Ding pain. Later of Challenger at the time was furious about. The Vietnamese, doing this in Cambodia Because the marriage was a Chinese Allen. And he threatened to invade Vietnam until prison encounter privately. Tell Prison Kata in prison. Inkatha privately promised help China if the sides threaten to help the Vietnamese. I will stay out of it, but at the of get involved China will help you. John you're invited. Vietnam nineteen seventy nine. But the Vietnamese would say good bye being fought and hard and long ninety five, so they kick. The CIA, but they thwarted the. Chinese attack. Needing on East Taymor nine seventy five. Non In seventy five. There was a Portuguese dictatorship. which fell. And the new Portuguese government. Decided to withdraw from its colonists. This included a team all. This is his team ward bicycling on the map is the fire east of. Indonesia clash two trillion. And SAHATA client he was threatened by the East Timorese Communists. Nixon. President Nixon Guide, Sahata. To tyke it to Tyke as team on an Operation Lotus, which killed three hundred thousand East Timorese. From nine to nine seventy nine. The Indonesian armed forces killed up to a third of the population. A high proportion than Pol Pot in Cambodia. This is by Suharto the. The US assisted. Military. Dictator He grabbed parent Indonesia. Back to Guatemala nothing racked by dictatorships. Since Jiji Vera left united on hdl Lia. The. Dictatorship supported by US Green. Berets conducts a terror campaign against any lift season subversives it can find. And uses to Cadillac. Tactics disappear tens of thousands of people. Nicaragua on seventy nine, the Sandinistas one. Ronald Reagan promptly begins funding the Contra rebels. I lean. Anytime lift ISH government. Popped up his head in Latin America the US kind Dan Hod Fanta military dictator. Guide systens, guiding the naked, the wink and the nod. We'll guide. The money will guide them a death list. Put troops on the granting foam of green berets. Help them conduct propaganda campaigns. Will scare the shit out of any left to see day to stay up to them. From? Just ruffling from seventy three, the Guatemalan military killed more than two hundred thousand people. The Salvadorian Civil. What took seventy five thousand lives? Argentina Killed Twenty thousand to thirty thousand. Eighty Communist extermination spread all across Latin America. Always with the assistance of the United States. Historian John Kites with concluded that from knowing sixty two naughty naughty. The number of victims of us-backed violence in Latin America. Vastly exceeded the number of people killed in the Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc I've assigned Tong. There's a quite for you when people talk about the evil Communist. Say Yes. They're evil, but hey. US Bank violence in Latin America vast leaks say to the number of people killed by the side of gets in the eastern bloc from nine sixty to nineteen ninety. Indonesia today. They still under the belief that the Communists can spot and plotted. Caused. A gruesome death of heraldic general's. Luckily. Sahata was around degree gun control quickly and help rid the country of the Communist threat forever. There's a museum. which must be somewhere in Chicago I think. And As she walked in on a bizarre series of darkened holes, a series of Diorama installations tighty through the history of the party. Is the Communist Party. Demonstrating agent every time by tried the nation or attack. The military applauded to destroy Dijon. Down to reproducing Suharto's propaganda narrative about events of October nineteen, sixty five. There's not reference to the up to one million civilians killed as a result. At the exit, kids pies is in front of a big saw him, it says. Thank you for A. dioramas about savagery carried out by the Indonesian Communist Party. Don't let anything like this ever happened again. site. Point of this sees. As I said earlier today. Many people speculate that if unchecked Jonah could flex its Pale in control and subjugate smaller countries. That, it could force its will and communist agenda on this path countries. If necessary it would gile kill and terrorize vast populations to achieve times. In the terrible treaties that facility the US is being conducted the same sort of terrorism campaign. We feed the Janis. We'll start. And Nice people on a way of just how badly America's behaved so. D Listener. I really highly recommend. This book the Jakarta Math Point Vincent Bevan's. Guys into enormous day tile. Lots of footnotes and references that'll side the personal stories of different individuals caught up at different points in these tragic stories and. It's a story. We need to understand and. And we need to keep that in law, and when we a feist what I see all the time at a moment. Of this eighty China rhetoric fine. But the response seems to be so we must saw with the Americans and I just hype. The this podcast gives you some reasons why that might not be a good idea. Aim Idealist next week. Episode two hundred sixty it. We will celebrate five years of having done this podcast. Happy can join us will be live streaming on a Tuesday nodded seven thirty home. See then. Fotheringham's here. Faced Glove. Congratulations Sean foyers of entertaining. And Informative podcasts. Twelve man. Feared not feel wise counsel. You'll come. Rides would have argued in ever decreasing circles until eventually disappearing their own.

United States Indonesia president America government China Guatemala Soviet Union Vincent Bevan Indonesian Communist Party CIA US State Department Guatemala Iran Jakarta CICADA Guy John Sakano Indonesian Armed Forces United Fruit Company
306: Pop Culture Conspiracy Theories 2

The Popcast With Knox and Jamie

54:22 min | 1 year ago

306: Pop Culture Conspiracy Theories 2

"'cause i do see billy from stranger things as being like you definitely got it will be hot for that in hoffer sign up for you i feel like it's on brand maybe not for everybody okay okay that's gonna do for this episode of the podcast guys matter where you go anytime you're doing shopping arizona remember anytime you over anytime okay just a little bit remember anytime river anytime you got amazon anytime anytime a low end walk on those number three hundred and six of the podcast i'm one of those are scores and i'm your host jamie golden calf his show dedicated to the life of seeing were committed educating you on the things entertained but you don't matter find out more about these conspiratorial tori all proceeds check us out and knox and jamie dot com you can find us on instagram and facebook at the podcast and we're on twitter at par cast by guys thanks for joining us this week as we will be talking pop culture conspiracy theory but before we do that problem that need solving we at the podcast are here to help you're dilemma can be about pop culture but it also not like anything like relationships are worker traveler money you're parenting are healthier intermittent fasting at cetera simply record of thirty seconds in her left voice memo an email at hello at knox and jamie dot com just start messaging we're real or fake name and in state you're problem will feature some listeners struggles and are owned solutions in a future episode again send her voice memo by friday july twelfth to hello at knox and jamie dot com we cannot wait to make your life better take color your hair at home to the next level with madison reed you deserve gorgeous professional hair color delivered to your door for less than twenty five dollars for decades women have had two options for coloring their hair outdated at home color or the time and expense of us one many madison reed clients comment how their new hair color has improved their life for the better women love the results gorgeous shiny multidimensional healthy looking hair this is great covering game changing color you could do at home an look if you just came from the salon what makes madison reed color unique is that it's crafted by master colorist who blended nuances of light dark cool and warm treat more than forty five gorgeous multi tonal shades find your perfect shade at madison dash reed dot com podcast listeners get ten percent off plus free shipping on their first color kit with code pop that's code pot hi jamie pop culture conspiracy theories before we do that we should talk like i feel like there's a good context here because this morning a we walked in arlington's office a wearing sunglasses i'm still wearing sunglasses and it probably a moment where you're like some gone here but you didn't know what i didn't know what's happening at first i was like why did this summer did this independence day released least you're gonna you're not okay now he wear sunglasses inside his interest in what i wasn't sure what is the first operation i know in air tonight it's like we gave a lot yeah to each other and then we were like you're great so it's good to know first of all we like he's going full dues canoe you're entering full everybody is at risk of going full dish literally like it was you're time subtly though that's not what that's not a high a add some trump apparently i'm allergic to hitch face eating their other shrimp that you're not allergic i mean i've had like i've dabbled in shrimp brea before is never have you had like fried shrimp like frozen fried chicken with this like grilled shrimp yeah like a you know we had a bag of like precooked frozen shrimp i thought it out rinse it out with some you know some seizing evening shower woke up couldn't see you know and i i don't know i just don't know what's going on like like stevie wonder can't see yeah maybe stevie wonder can see maybe that's making seventy okay we're gonna talk pop culture conspiracy theories but first before we get there is a ton if you wanna look a little bit i just some wild stuff they're a bunch of bananas conspiracy theories out there on the internet but why do we talk broadly about conspiracy theories and like what like when you're thinking about them what do you think the fascination is what these there oh my gosh i love of conspiracy theories although i don't really believe the most the time because i do you actually think almost everything in the planet happens by accident like actually often think there's a reason for that okay i guess just what it is what it is right but conspiracy theories she's it really i think it's people need to control the narrative and the idea that this could have just happened in in been this thing and they're like no it couldn't have been that saying it has to end this thing yeah and so suddenly i think people go nothing happened by accident thing is is that seems you can't trust anybody you can't trust what you're being told and i like conspiracy theories because of fake news are on the rise was and you're definitely right 'cause i think you know we think about a conspiracy theories commonly when when experts you're talking about then there's the three temple ideas of conspiracy theories right the one you talked about that's my favorite because it's counter intuitive because to suggest that a john f kennedy wasn't just like assessing by a person but that the a statewide conspiracy right that's that's kind of wild ride but oddly there's something comforting about knowing their z larger entity in control that in this chaos happened that gives you comfort over just generalized i'm probably not gonna be somebody that the cia wants to assess right yeah you know you're like if there is a reptilian race controlling this led by the way you justin bieber by justin bieber like this weird but someone is in control so yeah better about yes i think also like you know there's interesting they're exciting and i think you know my favorite part about american idol is that you're singing a song that i know you're singing in a different way so that's interesting that he's my it's like a cover yeah it's a camera in i think there is the cover of truth right it's a cover of a little different way so like you don't have to educate yourself you're just like oh yeah i didn't think about it that way so it makes it interesting in that way and then i think last let the last temple one that we are you know maybe more than any other generation generation seeing is that because there's there's a very powerful you know they've had the power to almost de legitimize the sitting president brock obama they have been used the deemphasize a benefit vaccinations they've been used orchestrate crews in police did you know there's a through line a through line podcasts i really like there's no episode our results grandson users conspiracy theorist overthrow the iranians prime minister joining his grandson was named petty kermit no kermit you might have been named teddy and they named you kermit kermit and like he actually did overthrow like the folks with their engines will accuse kind of unimpressive thing some conspiracy theories what i love is like yes some of them are are steeped in faulted and have no like inkling of trees but then there are conspiracy theories that my favorite ones are the ones ended up being true not because i'm glad that cigarettes now we know caused cancer but remember like people from the twenties had already started arguing that cigarettes called cancer and it's not until like the nineties that we start actually having a pet like i message on the side of a carton renault like it's like people have been saying for years and doctors like known don't look at the cigarette it's fine you don't get i know you can't breathe but it wasn't the cigarettes it like it it wasn't the cigarette and i think the everytime you ever consider that it's verified it gives treat cancers oh yeah right is like the the i mean to me one of the worst of all time is the ski experiment like that c d c and we're trusting them to tell us about swine flu and bird flu and other pet fleas like how can we trust them if they have a history of not being able to be tracked what would you want the least of all the pet please say hamster flew first that's what richard gear would say to ensure that their conspiracy theory anyway oh and make sure you go we go one at a no but to that point like you know probably one of my favorite ones that we all 'cause i think a lot of these conspiracy theories like you don't get to handle you know like it just kinda was like jfk like i want that played out before i was even alive but one we gotta see even within the context of the show was he infamous a twenty fourteen grainy black and white footage from elevator where jay's nonsense launch knowles are fighting or something of fighting for real fighting for real we don't know what a time in there so locked down they they never explained why i never knew why she was throwing punches says only limited comes out when it comes out and suddenly we understand what was going on and then it is the justification of the launch who may or may not be bianchi's daughter right another conservative okay sort of a lot of conservatives you're you have like just abroad example you wanna throw of oregon so one of my favorite like 'cause i grew up in my dad would always be like maybe they didn't land on the moon very casually at dinner like pass the peace jan maybe they didn't land on the man sure if that's what i always think of is like the first conspiracy theory i ever knew of which was that stanley kubrick creatively directed the moon landing because we were in competition with russia unlike in series i'm not gonna watch like apollo movies like you wanna watch first man i was like sure how this rocket would do in the space that's true what else in the space yeah we don't even have in my book stuff i argue maybe i don't believe i think we've been in the main now yeah i don't know that we had gone to the when they say there's a there's a youtube video a where a guy kinda just dismantles that idea and he talks about how it would be more difficult to stage the moon landing like video cameras in cinema then it would be land on the moon yeah so he's like the thing you're believing maurienne is actually much more you i don't even know you dustin w guy you took one film class oh my gosh narran extra a you know i think like what those like you got flat earth that's an example oh yeah just in a name one dinosaurs and exists that's a crazy one the jfk thing like what what happened when it happened is that what you're bringing up when i think that's to me that's the biggest concern that's the one that kind of bored this new agey mean it wasn't he it was done by the government of all ages all of it it's wasn't lee harvey oswald they act alone was he apache is that why you got killed afterwards with mafiosos things at a cuban thing they're not yes so well there's a there's some evidence that jfk slept with sam giancana girlfriend who is the head of the chicago i think he's worked with a lot of people a lot of women i tend to agree that's probably if you look in the footage there's the guy a it's one of the secret service guys and we have the kind of jumps on the thing he well the gun a gun shot goes off and he draws his weapon and i think he he excellent discharges whether you think it's like somebody playing the shooting but what happened was the secret service guy shot as what i think well that's boring boring and we can't verify so it's no fun more my favorite one you can't verify but i feel like it's really true is that truman capote he really wrote gilmore i hate it when you bring this i it's my favorite like you love this 'cause you're like africa tennessee and have no obligation of the state of alabama despite the fact that sort of here will newsflash alabama has very little claimed her and she is one of them properly is one of her only planes to like literate fame you're right and i think the case for suffers when you look at all the book she wrote posted go mocking bird in really proves her skill awaits us right now is the only book she wrote i every time i okay so why don't we talk about you're talking about some conspiracy theories like we think we might be real yes okay my first one is that a paul walker actor rights was murdered course okay so we know the he died in a car crash or super sad and he was hosting an event for his charity which was reach out worldwide which was benefiting victims of the typhoon in the philippines right well conspiracy theorists in jamie be golden believe believe that he had learned about plans by the government the filipino government to secretly terrorize it's people right they have no more business yeah right and so he found out about it and so if you look at the footage we will include a link in the show notes he's gonna finish it looks like a dry and hits his car right before it was i'm sure what's preview i haven't seen the footage what's also happening right before that drone strikes though i dunno he's driving like a million among our i don't remember announce a lot more now 'em i i do feel like you're yada yada the filipino government wants to sterilize the people we talk more about that they were hiding medicine in the food is that permitted government work to be like just what no more growth nowhere population yeah but like you like how many like they're hiding in the food as impoverished so the poor people gabby these rich people all the time now we've got a dystopia movie like that's a movie i wanna see i don't want a little bit but i wanna see it poll workers cannot be in that movie 'cause he's the same but while walker will be then diesel a one of my favorites is a this is again this is a fairly recent one which is why i really enjoy it 'em it's that mattress companies mattress stores they're not really stores transfer money laundering schemes have you heard that one but the idea was like why are there so many mattress and no one's ever asked them no one's ever asked them there's so many and like there'd be a lot of subways mcdonald's that makes sense greeting three times a day yeah how often would lasagna about a mattress i've never bought a master have never automatic have always had mattresses giving me i don't know what actually play in my mattress now see maybe i'll go in get myself a mattress in has some of those latino helped the black market economy laundered for well see the other cleaning tried many clean drug i watched ozark i know how about whether it's exactly exactly what it is 'cause like money laundering i know we brawley understand what it is but it's when you make money from illgotten gains you can't just pause and bank is they'll be like so we were just come from it'll draw attention suspicion you have to pay taxes on that money see run through a mattress store that is it's not turning overload a product like walsworth whenever i've never seen anybody in the history of ever coming out of a mattress store where the mattress although i do think they deliver them so maybe that's why they'll deliver it 'cause we bought one like a year and a half ago you buy from you by casper spur known they sent me a free pass on what that was about after we bought it but see that's the thing like you've got these online mattress company so why would you go anymore but yet they're everywhere they're everywhere you go they are and that's a good one really quick let's just check and how you how you feeling with sunglasses on feel like i'm intimidate you know i don't know what you're saying i mean i don't i like this i know it's but i don't like i don't know what you're saying you are not saying 'cause people talk with their on this is we've got a whole world series of poker vibe going in right now you get above right you're right but think about that vod is that in any way incandescent no it's the vibe of disconnect here's the deal though i think the vibe of mean you're not being able to see my eyeballs 'cause they're so small and shut that also in idaho i only see you're computer that's what you're fucking bad ass good nice okay my last one that i really like really thing might actually be true is that lewis carroll author was jack the ripper okay here's why the murder need like he liked took women's out in essence out okay let's let's go by bill like what is he right right so lewis carroll famously wrote allison wonderland which is basically about drug users very much right and he was a drug user allegedly he's dead so he does and so he math at oxford you only is you're you're you're drawn to be able to do that but several of his letters but he's written to his brother there is there a biographer had said he had a very tumultuous childhood he had very poor relations with his own mother that was very abusive wave and so in a couple of letters he's written to his brother 'em a he has one that says dear skaff his brother's name is scott turf name which is named all over that name and he said more not less now be abolished well if you rearranges letters it says ask mother about the red lion safer boys sled what's that mean i know i do and then my favorite one is in he published eight preschool like a like a book a version of the wonderland story meant for younger children okay so maybe only marijuana okay not using like lsd right end in it he says if i find one st hor like there's anagram of a passage where the anagram is if i found one st or you know what will happen to be off with her head all day does go that sounds like a god decapitating whores that's pretty incriminating salute terrell it is and then my favorite one is that a in in the same book that they were younger kids he has a passage about a dog declining dinner and so they called the dog dash into the house now dasher going happy birthday trait treat but if you come on the letters it's that whole passage it is we thomas paine charles dotson cut it into the slain nude body expected a taste taste devour enjoy a nice meal of a dead horse here as we may do found it awful wanna have like a warren dirty go hog we broke through it out okay all right so i hold on path let me just double by somebody you presumably rearrange all those letters into that weirdly very heavily biographer biographer lewis carroll lucero yet rearranged all those letters okay i don't hate i'll just say i'm just saying i'm not know it but it's like a specific toys that he made and again i can't come down with jack the ripper he killed five people calm down so what i'm hearing a lot better at murder and that's where i wanna get their god bless america right ranger bar britain's most impressive murder yet backing are my last one is my favorite one in this is this is so close to true said it's almost insulting dakota syria because it's we verified a this about michael jordan okay so michael jordan the second best basketball player relive as we know 'em in nineteen ninety four he retires some sort of basketball that offer run of three consecutive championships nine one nine two nine three great time they go out on top great go out on top but this is probably one of the most famously competitive persons we've ever known in her life he's so petty in competitive that is hall of fame induction a few years ago he flew in his high school basketball coach the same one that cut him when he's a sophomore to excoriate him in front of his peers and be like hey up i'm in the hall of fame now right liberate petty guy but he just leaves and he doesn't leave like so searcher maybe what about place he leads the kind of birmingham to play yes minor league baseball and and i think very wealthy the magic city do other things presumably but not hit the baseball really well right okay comes back in ninety five and then rips off three more championships nice six and i seventy eight so the theory basically the truth is that michael jordan had a gambling issue we know okay we know this because you're not tonight to after winning a second jim jim jordan what's called the testify in a criminal trial of james belair explain why this guy blair eight convicted drug dealer how they signed personal check from jordan for fifty seven thousand dollars today jordan's settles a business loan but then under oath admitted it was camping losses nineteen ninetythree a san diego businessmen so the he had one nine hundred thousand dollars from michael jordan golf getting a in i think ninety three michael drummer spot in atlantic city in the early hours of the morning of game two in the eastern conference finals this is a guy with a gambling issue in the theory is that instead of him being suspended publicly david starting the commissioner of mb i said you go away for a little bit and even come when i say it's ready so we save face and not have the skin just go away free year is that because that looks sketchy i think so i think you're suspension look so sketchy came back in march of ninety five any help them grow playoffs with limited by magic 'em but see i i think the context is important because it kind of sounds hyperbolic but you gotta remember major league baseball underwent the same thing with heroes in nineteen eighty nine is a big embarrassment for baseball so that the face of the league the face of fruit aloom the face of nike the face of nike be having been indicted in something this scandals an embarrassing it was a big yet another reason why lebron james is the best basketball player and it's one of many honestly but it just goes to prove how much better he is michael jordan hey guys a quick break talking about winter sponsors sponsors stamps dot com no one really has time together post office all that traffic parking lugging all you're mail and packages it's real hassle you're busy and it's also summertime there's so many other things you could be 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totally free again just text podcast to thirty thirty thirty standard message and data rates may apply now back to the show are joko no socialist do so those were 'cause there's there's we think a real right do you wanna do the ones we wanna be real oh yeah okay okay joining the take my glasses off their feel better i feel the veteran hard in i feel very drowsy right now i know it's just we're not gonna would you have those released one okay i think i think they're better better only about you but you were so dramatic on a reason they were won't shut this morning okay get on my face about how'd you drive here the will the podcast shaming bed 'em okay so we see these series wanna be real hate the start the first one off because it seems like a downer one theory but i want to be real is paul mccartney is dead okay great okay here's why here's why i want it to be a trio still living paul mccartney you want him to be dead well let's just well it probably truly i won't ring gonna be dead but if i have to like stick with the conspiracy theory i think this one is actually true okay okay so on the paul mccartney dot in nineteen sixty six on november ninth and he had ace car accident after a fight with the band end he crashed into a pole and he was decapitated while so complicated okay right and so what john lennon and george harrison entering a try to do is they were like oh we miss paul so sad and we need to keep this thing going on we all know that policy everybody loves the most like they all of them except my mother she loved george the most real tells me filtered number of jim so sad when he died so here's the thing so what they did is they found a guy named billy shares who is a look alike who even accidents on it apart and here's the thing if you get older photos and like even album covers it's always very suspicious that you can't get a full like head on shot of paul on most famously there is in their album cover the famous cover for abbey road right where their whole cross everybody has to go the abbey road and recreate this album cover so when they're crossing the street what you have is for them right paul he's the one that doesn't have shoes on he is his legs are doing something different than the other boys like he's out of step for some reason 'em an he's he's like looking off like he's not looking straight ahead like working ended up as well yeah he sure it's not even harrison and then john is wearing all white 'cause he's the priest enrico is dressed in black like a pallbearer hookah and then george is bringing up the rear because he's the grave digger they in his bleaching get a love is canadian tuxedo undercovers where it's just like look if you play songs backwards of course everybody knows everybody played there'd be those albums backwards and if not now you'll want to because of the movie yesterday on there and they call this paul fall okay hall no i got it i did it with thank you for checking a they fall in a and even be fall has been asked about it in interviews and his response is well the rumors don't bother me to the people's mind to preferred i think of them as rumors i'm never gonna interfere i don't wanna spoil their fantasy because he's not paul mccartney classic imposter lake he's not real and then when you listen to some of the album's backwards there's even like a like strawberry fields forever you could hear john saying i bury paul why he argues that he's saying cranberry sauce okay it clearly says when i play it i buried paul i don't know that if you gave me twenty four hours and like said someone of him will die i could figure out of place on backwards like with modern technology i never had yeah that's a weird ever listen to like say genyk language of listen don't get up and you know you could say i you're very overconfident now it's frankly off putting also in the nineteen sixty eight track revolution non if you play it backwards you can hear a car crash and you hear someone say he hit a pole guys paul is that i like i almost want the wikki called paul is dead wicked pedia i just like the listener i'm like how should we grieve paul i know will make a song and then we played play backwards aircraft they felt guilty and they were like we have to treat you always return to the scene of the crime they know they've done a crowd in november the crime jamie you told me you always return of the crime i think that explains this is a spoiler ultimately the move yesterday but i think they're off cruiser cameos did not happen like paul like you could have been that movie why would he have been and i maybe i mean why not like why not be in the movie so he's like i don't mean to be in this november make so much money off this maybe probably but there is some weirdness which paul mccartney has deployed just sometimes will show up like there's a great song oh i can't read the names konya riana and paul mccartney and yeah the for four seconds yeah for says like wait that's justin timberlake something there about the freak out in about four seconds at home corners on there why do you pick that spot to show up and show up all the time still gonna be like that's what my dad or maybe that is still a dad who sell is that it's not paul mccartney so is that a fatal really share together i did that race has really improved and appreciate like i did not but whatever hey what's you're next on a mind is that walt disney's head is frozen i like that's a conspiracy or you're like bats tree what do you think i think it's true see offer many years i did in my son challenge me he's like that that can't can't be true while she witnessed happy frozen frozen here's cremated that's how do you know they don't keep the well exactly that's why this theory lives on okay so back in the seventies after disney's death a rumor start is swirling he'd been cryogenically frozen a which if you are unfamiliar that process where it freezes you or your brain a at a temperature of minus a hunter thirty degrees celsius which i don't know how cold that we fahrenheit at this really cold just really oak hills is that way more cold and i think are may what's the temperature again negative on another degree so no that's super calls even as a matter of fact fahrenheit or self yes that's the real cold air podcast tip if you've got a negative by the by the temperature is very it's very cold bad things are happening for you so but the technology didn't exist at the time while disney die but he did a communicate enthusiasm for which is why this ideas attributed to walt disney because he expressed interest in it but the really juicy part justice real very juicy part jamie of this theory is that the disney exacts were sitting around looking at that as you look at trends like you guys we're getting a lot of traffic on walt disney frozen so we gotta take this analytic back we got what if we did a movie called frozen and that suddenly owned the no one will ever ask those questions anymore no one will ever think about it because those won't let it go do you get guys so the idea is it that's why they made frozen 'cause even like when you look at the name frozen like you've got new lawn or actually does make sense because i was gonna say brave untangled that's kinda like that they're actually just like five so whatever you need to have it done i mean it's not true life has holes sometime so he's got a role we shared but someone's talking about it sounds ridiculous that disney would do something like that but they were like think about in the context of this a like when you're matt scott on on disney grounds you can't take your head off and there's even anecdotal they'll evidence that someone on a disney cruise and a goofy suit was drowning and they couldn't take the hat off as even in the contract language that you comply with the idea that you're head even if you need to do cpr and you you'll be taken away from kids so they don't just see you're had been like you're you're not because you're not you're really mickey mouse today you have to you have to be that person and even when you think about a the the footage of the photos of walt disney smoking that's been scrubbed take the cigarette away so for some weight inscribed as antisemitic semitism astra benefits forever that's really in their deep but when you're so obsessed with image like that like it's somewhat feasible so you know about it i think you know i think that makes sense i mean the next one that's totally segway turnout is louis tomlinson in harry styles make up the couple full larry silencing okay lover named after a couple of maine here's the thing there have been like conspiracy theories forever but they have been a couple of since before twenty eleven and that they are still a couple of so much so that when he had eight quote baby right did not have any why because that baby becomes he well he went out and maybe this predicting a guy like oh no i'm married i'm gonna marry this girl she had my baby airbase look at those pictures that baby their baby feet don't look at that look at say why don't we we're real baby of america five and maybe it's not it's sometimes and see american sniper baby guy sometimes in is a baby but it's just been rented out okay why he is not into harry when you just be like why you just how true love here's where it starts to there's a tweet by louie that is up from twenty eleven and the tweet is always in my heart harry styles your sincerely louie wow how many times that's been retreated idle two point six million times that's a lottery twenty so retreats you guys modern press larry ellison there were just and there's a whole world on the internet of larry's tomlinson fan fiction and it was just brought to life on the tv show euphoria which we do not recommend that you are watching that movie eighty s j aaron all my humanity all of humanity but it was featured on euphoria an hp out does not lie so i literally there a couple which is why you baby that's i just i feel like you kept talking and i have like a lot of momentum for this blocked by talks like you rent tuxedos allah's gonna do yeah baby rental service were gonna pitch shark tank and stuff but then i kinda lot i i loved you rent a baby other i know like again life as whole so like i'm not everyday idea bad idea but yeah i if it is an interesting trope of boy bands i specifically boy bands i guess of partnering and couple of different aspects of this is just part of the nazi just couldn't be freed be attracted z but he was i did like all these questions just new jersey no you said you i dunno i wanna i wanna know maybe he is it either young attractive daisy that's a it's a powerful it sounds like a look that way but i like the audio collisions in that none of them had georgetown like this get over that one it was just like that that that that but patrick but you know i don't think that works yeah yeah but even like as you were talking earlier about 'em a replacement cycle paul mccartney that's a trip to like you got eminem you gotta have levine all these people having levine has been replay i mean we know that but i people might not know that so my next a conspiracy that i kind of want to be real is idea that fenland as a country not real did you know that it's unreal fresh off of are barnstorming tour of northern europe last week on her bachelorette recap for patrons supportive that's and the danes had been respected in every way by the podcast which i could totally tell you do understand now like just don't worry about i definitely get it now right especially after being confused and the women's world cup final of like wow i just don't i don't have a handle and that's why were they in france i happening where where is what so but the idea is that fenland is prism of understanding it doesn't actually physical exist people don't go defend filling isn't isn't real like it's not a place not a physical place and the reason is because during the cold war the japan so union spread the idea that there's landmass called finland a which ashley covered up stretch of ocean where the japanese could get really good fishing done and the russians were okay with this as long as they got a cut of the fishing loot that the japanese again so the trans siberian wrote way with built under the idea that is transporting wink wink nokia equipment and really who is just this week's we fish maybe not columbia maybe somebody my he apparently one from from plano in when jay not you get it i get it and certainly have to so it's fake we know that i also so what's the name what's what's in lens finland's would have been jamie fish exactly see do you get it we see key driving the russians i dunno i do i'll be honest with you know one i've ever and on instagram at this does feel like a basis for believing a conspiracy diarrheas drew no one in my instagram has ever been tough in that's the circumstantial evidence of sweden yeah people go to norway has the best red sox audition ever been held in finland no they've never gone defend it totally should have at this point which is costs were concerned oh i'm so sorry finland where you fat if i do we have any listeners in quote finland sarcastic air quotes finland's life you're listening from finland where you tell us where you really are picks or doesn't exist all right my next one is that unlike this one i believe in my heart and we already know the beyond saying jay z beyond say is so launches mom bright young things never pregnant with blue i correct we know the be onsite is and they eliminate audi of course okay we often it'd be onsite kidnap ceo wants to write songs for her absolutely absolutely okay so in twenty fifteen see it talked about in rolling stone interview working would be onsite instead it was quite like writing camp which if you have anything about writing which you do your written buckeye do book book you've just like on wednesday i'm right already books before the great yes right so if you know anything about writing camp that's code for yet is right and so she said he's very frankenstein when she comes to the song she takes bits and pieces says from different artists to create a song 'em and so to me all of that says like see it started posting tweets and one of the tweets was hope everyone likes pancakes but every word was capitalized you know what the hope everyone likes pancakes stands for but stone help one that's what helped we all wanna be being trapped by beyond say she even said that beyond say had twenty of her songs still under contract and she couldn't get them from that time that she was kidnapped and forced the reason that sia where's wigs is not because she doesn't want her face to be famous 'cause she still has the scars firmware beyond say be while with the typewriter like pencils herself like typewriter dummy stupid nobody uses typer i would say it wouldn't surprise me if you're using a typewriter you she's making like the swedish mafia used typewriters while they write her only the process that she adores while i'm just saying like if you wanna say any seattle has been kidnapped it feels like her wigs indicate that yes she has some what is it much much however my pregnancy no you got it now that they know that's not it that's when you're sick were you on look don't help will figure this out and we've got kidnapped and you fall in love with her kidnapper okay okay all right let's think here it's it's not the john snow syndrome to see if you would've put money down how long it would have paid and i said the over under ten minutes out of said to me it's hard to the odds right there right right there oh my gosh witchcraft that yes you're welcome a let's do our last one you wanna predict a conspiracy theory okay i think what's gonna happen is we were kind of dancing around it and we've mentioned it but i think it's gonna be proven true first of all i just wanna go on record that all rockstar they're soft until you touched that okay that's my first running love that i was so jay drive by t bone i wasn't ready for god bless you second way apple is really listening to us on her phone oh sure like i feel like they keep saying they're not and there is no way they're not sure what's amazing right now like us doing this right now and having this conversation means that i'm gonna have like finland ads on my phone yeah like tonight guaranteed i can't wait for that moment i mean it's gonna happen and i'm like screech i think all the fights her full you can't get there but when he's when he was one i think another pretty a rooted deep 'cause there's areas idea that pokey mongo was like a surveillance oh yeah operationally i eight from the cia and i read a lot about that not that's a really interesting theory on somebody talked about how it was less 'em warning to monitor you in that moment but more kickstarting b m anticipation algorithm like the machine learning because it wasn't even care what you were looking at or what pictures you were touching her looking at whatever oh wow it was caring about like you're patterns you're rhythm habits and that's when when they internalize that and they can predict that and then you predictive models that's where they completely pletely bother listening as long as they're not storing that they're not recording me problem with them really listening to me i just want them to record mean do you but if if if someone said like you can't you just can't be aligned anymore or drama underground listen recordings and keep it went through the recording keep it private tab you can't like where's it gonna record everything in keep it or you have to go off the grid what would you do i would i would let the record everything will be on a ride does everybody else it's like i don't love it but i think there are some people hear those those were the same people who are like chemicals they're mad like get out of here i love chemicals i wrote them ical chemicals that no i agree and i would be like you can record me okay if that's the only way that i can only imagine what stranger things well of course i think that see see the the negotiation were having a man gps how it's used maybe that's the thing when the lights go down world and we screwed 'em okay that's where conversation or conspiracy theories if you have thoughts and opinions on our thoughts and busy series 'em whether filling real life so nocturne accomplished three oh six a quick break to talk about one of are incredible sponsors bio clarity clarity is clean and green skincare brands with products that just work there skincare line offers easies regimens we could for you ingredients gradients will give you great skin what healthy eating does fear body bio clarity that's where you're face so i use these central's routine is for normal are dry skin they also have one for combo or oily skin an everything everything comes in the routine is what you need to nurture hydrate and restore your skin the 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slash p o p c s t stitch fix dot com slash podcast okay back to the show jimmy noticed why what is your relatives were okay my red light this week is the royal family specifically in regards to are cheese christening what do i want a baby rechristened and possibly dedicated to a life of service and love and affection whatever happens at british christening but i don't know and i see me got great godparents but you know what i don't know any of the facts no firm a brief statement released by the house of sucks do i know anything about what happened and i got to stoop pictures one in black and white could we thought that could we stopped the black and white like i need good occasion for black and white never done mugshots maybe it's really take the edge off i took this a million years ago here's a picture of it is a black and white no nobody ever i don't even know unless you're brand is black and white like you only do my my always heard that you can't just throw in a black and white like you can't just throw in a buy hold and that baby i wanna see that i wanna see that maybe move and i wanna see that baby to listen who's the guy parents is it is it serena yeah we don't know because we're keeping that information private you're the round baby serves almost piss you like you're you're you're in the demographic look i don't trick me with diana sisters being and they official portrait first of all that one of the i think it was the kensington house they don't even named the sisters right there were like no this one will you know who could probably name right charles 'cause he dated to have the surgery or whatever but you see williams awesome that photo they aren't smiling why because there is a huge fight going on that family and i think that's why they wouldn't let the public about but guess what if we did two million dollars worth of like remodeling to you're fraud more cottage guess what we could have access year family and not just to still thought that it does feel like the the deserves all the credit for i could just go in and kind of doing auto like a like a two out to the kitchen to see was you know it's not my taxes 'cause i love in america but still i think as i i i would say a world citizen i'm a world citizenship i'm a child of the british because i'm american just basically basic rights and i went to london last year paid back on lots of stuff no i'm just saying i don't understand what is 'cause harry's biological father james we he went there and they want there to be a kerfuffle while really fucked i wanna say i don't think charles is a conspiracy theory charles is not his biological father did you see the consider the queen elizabeth's is actually cannibal this house she says young who she eating well if i don't know but it's based off like a guy a repairman he's being in the military and he's like yo i'm not gonna do a british man i just i bet you would call me it's also the golden knights marks probably will because i think that's a free came out the wc you know win a free agent i saw i saw both people that one above the law the body parts in like as if this guy said let me tell you one thing i know about england is there fridges are tiny there is no room for arms and legs and gratulations like ice grades i know we get it and we're learning worn coke or no okay what you're red light marla is do little mermaid jamie there now you're never made to be a live action film at what no no i think i don't think you do i wanna see flatter i wanna see how they messed that up 'cause they're a mess that up 'em but person i don't know i don't know what they're gonna do i really don't might be a puppet i'd be fine with the being a pop housing sesame street public i don't know what they're gonna do but they announce a new era i love narrow that's great glad i'm glad it's the person it is i'm not gonna say her name howley bailey that's my problem it's why are you so close holly berry well after how but like i that's gonna cost me trouble and i feel like she wasn't thinking of me when she did that and i'm sure how he wasn't thinking right now when i'm talking about this and we do this and the more you know i'm gonna be like holly berry bail like i just it's a problem and i don't like get a highly be i'm thinking about bobby holly be cardi b i'm gonna do like that yeah but this is gonna be a disaster this movie is gonna be a disaster like guys the first time he's not that guy and i know listen i know y'all gonna come from me you come from me 'cause cause messier genders are blondes her coming from me 'cause they're very few burnett who don't get what i'm saying why do you have a sheet dog on the coast there is no longer if you're a voice you're a man and guess what me to you're not giving up your voice man why would you trust someone who looks like are slow with pet heels like he's thinking about porn fortunate souls and she's looking entire time creating an aerial get smarter a da a what you're doing some agri this week is the maybe spiderman spiderman chronicles crato far from home look i look i love marvel movies idea this win it just knocked it out of the park i mean tom holland i don't know if i wanna keep it in my pocket or lake sitting next him on a swinging hold his hand oh should we unveil errands conspiracy theory that she thinks tom holland an actor jamie bell however i would like the left and right now i'm saying like the old testament bay overjoyed sorry she she somehow in in jamie bell or breitbart she thinks they're the same person because she was so confused during rocket man that she doesn't understand how tom holland with rocket man like literally we get me in what men and to this day she's like you guys tom holland and jamie valor the same person here's the thing i feel like jimmy bill in ben foster the same person that's the ones i you know i don't i thought jamie bell bell is with a model is there isn't there james he was in he was in new jersey i know i know you're talking about that yeah but that's near and she has she doesn't want to keep those you're if you choose a coward about she won't talk about publicly you are a coward about it he's a snake in the grass or you're there is zero yes tom holland is so good in this isn't that kind just formally apologized on entire town yes you wanna you wanna get on the bus i mean i'm on the bye all right with that look i said originally when she's mj say it's like she doesn't have anything to do why she acting like she's got a good well she found somebody and it was so good jake jilin hall what a delight of a really good oh my gosh she's so good the worst part of the movie wow is the better the first one it's better than the first one that's high praise okay let me tell you what i really think so i think it's in my top five favorite marvel movies of all time what you're closer that's how far i pay thor ragnarok boom right fiber one descending order you know spiderman okay okay i'll go in reverse order spiderman captain america winter soldier wow wow guardians of the galaxy hookah a sore ragnar okay black panther oh interesting like that i'm like winter soldier but i like that you're which do you like any of the captain america is no no you don't appreciate chris evans and the way that very boring i don't need this but you do that for all my gosh this is why the fourth of july is all about perhaps he comes early rose by under are five because to sure he comes in we but under a flood okay what's you're gay by a migraine is the television program stranger things oh yes we blew through the season 'em i didn't think going back to hawkins for third year would be good a i didn't think his show that ride herd furnace doll john they ride hard and i don't know but i like it when you a leverage in well sure and they leverage and they do like even a the the mayor kerry yes whatever you always sale kerry l is gonna say i'm gonna say you'll that's how far off it's not your okay well for the princess bride yeah princes right guy a firm casting him 'em i am usually not hey hey let's watch a show about kid through puberty that's just not me oh wow yeah and we are deep and fury at this point but a man it was a really good season it was i liked what they did i liked a share hoppers just whole eat those his mood is fashioned the dad bod i can't get on it's literally it there were a lot happening with it but i think this was for me and you you could describe me if you if you think i'm wrong i think this had the most heart of anything they did know for sure and it felt like it was the hopper eleven connection that really drove together so i really enjoyed it i thought his great read it's a it's a it's a it's a groupie there's a lot of goofy wet gory miss oh that monster is legit phil jim answer it said don't eat dinner while you're watching this now a but it's a great show yes so led a okay that's conducive to the podcast guys of free remember anytime you shopping amazon amazon dot com slash shop slash podcast first sleepers these are feeling like a very wide person using that link this week was jimmy this is just says combing shaggy v confer donut color photo of like i don't know what this is like my word yeah very discouraging just don't know what's happening here would you like to clarify what this is this is eight donut cutler for eight dollars right it's fucking dog with matt with a hole in the middle so cuddles the dog like a donut i do wanna point to the questions this by the way has almost two thousand reviews and they're almost all five stars so you picked a good product hoover about them but i do wanna point out the person who asked the question i have a fat cocker her spaniel forty five got body shaming her right with thirty forty four ten or congress would admit it but now you're gonna tell me what thirty thirty be appropriate and kathy be answered while you're dog's question why congress being away forty five boundary question job all right you guys i'm jamie golden you could find me on twitter instagram and they said at jamie be golden i'm not going from socialism extra corrigan by

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Episode 326: River of Doubt (Entry 1076.PS7208)

Omnibus! With Ken Jennings and John Roderick

1:05:15 hr | 3 months ago

Episode 326: River of Doubt (Entry 1076.PS7208)

"This nothing we are jennings and john rodrick. We speak to you from our present which we can only assume as your distant past the turbulent time that was the early twenty first century during the great cataclysm that will surely befall our civilization. We began this monumental reference of strange obscure human knowledge. These recordings represent our attempt to compile and preserve wonders esoterica. That would otherwise be lost. So whether you're listening from an advanced civilization or have just. Reinvented the technology to decrypt our transmissions. This is our legacy to you. This is our time capsule. This is the paired you have accessed entry. One zero seven six dot p. s. seven two zero eight certificate number two seven five three one. Oh the river of doubt me see. You're not anyone i know. Now perhaps later on my hunting trip to africa. Yes look like someone. I might meet in the jungle. You've been to mount rushmore. I have it's a little underwhelming. It's kind of the plymouth. Rock of the west of the four presidents there. Who's the outlier well. Lincoln's the only one with a beard. Okay i believe washington last one washington went on the caller. The sculptor got lazy after that one. The only one with the loose leaf tea with the only one in las jefferson has something kinky going on not on the record not on the record. I can the obvious. Answer is teddy. Roosevelt's y glasses no glasses right because the other three were all decades and decades in the past by the time new century or or thereabouts in the past by the time. Not rushmore was sculpted Whereas roosevelt's more recent president probably. I don't know this for sure. But maybe just there on the strength of his emphasis on conservation and public parks in the west. It seems like he's right for mount rushmore. Even if that makes it a little less of a pantheon of everybody's forego two presidents james madison despite writing the constitution for example right. It's hard to. It's hard to judge like as we've talked. I think many on the on the show hard to judge in recent history who the legends are going to be. I think when obama was first elected we all. We all imagined that he was a he was a world historical figure and then nobel pri peace prize for basically redecorating the oval office. Yeah right and now. Now only four years later. I mean. He's clearly a figure but probably not going to be enshrined in the pantheon of the greatest people told the office and now we assume mount rushmore is a pantheon but that's maybe not necessarily true. I don't know if that's ever in the press. Release that guess. What we just sculpted the four best presidents and made them really big. I'm not sure whether the plan was to keep adding presidents to mount rushmore world. Fourteen fifteen days. But yeah i think part of the problem is if you include lincoln and washington and jefferson at any for any presence going to be ringo. Yeah you're you're you're going to fall prey to the. Is this pantheon question. You can't then just you know. Put up your favourite president but roosevelt in his time was considered one. One of the great presidents and i think the assumption was that he would go down in history as one of the great american presidents. Still i think on the list. The you know the list of top a five to ten and i feel like the conservation thing has to help you know like the dakotas has a theodore roosevelt national park. Yeah i think that's a big part of it. But but he was also roosevelt. Went on a lot of expeditions in his life and was kind of like not just somebody that can serve to the american men far west but but a paragon of a kind of american manley outdoorsy. Virtue he's a larger than life figure in a way that It's hard to point to another president. Not on mount rushmore. I guess maybe grant. Yeah right but you know grants alcoholism kind of puts him in asterix column but teddy roosevelt. Has i mean he got a military background right. Busted trusts but also harvard and then he was a bronco. Buster and i mean a lot of a lot is real person in a way that you wouldn't say about even popular presidents william mckinley calvin coolidge a well rounded person but also maybe by contemporary standards. He would be accused of being a dilettante. And i think was accused of it in his own time. Is that right. Yeah but at the time people were like hey you can do all this as a rich kid. It's it's one thing to go work on a on a cattle ranch in the west. It's another thing to go work on a cat on a cattle ranch as a rich kid. You're always going to be trying to prove that you're there as a as a you know as a real hard worker as a as a scientist dude. Not just a dude and i think there's a little bit of that that that maybe plagued him and caused an motivated him to excel at at the things. He tried just always kind of dispel the the suggestion that he's he's coasting that's nice. That's not just a modern invention. The suspicion of the of the trust fund kid always had it but this was also an era where i mean in the age of exploration who can afford to go chart uncharted rivers in in a in central america today. Who else can afford to take unpaid internships at vanity. Fair sure who can afford to go around the world in a dirigible. that has your name on the size. You can't tax the rich wind up with a dirigible poor civilization but roosevelt was a i think he exemplified a kind of frontier spirit. That's not really in fashion right now. In the sense that we're not lionising Science of wealthy families who go to foreign countries and kill a bunch of wildebeest and name rivers after themselves. Is it really lionising. If they shoot will the bee's It's wildebeest sizing shot live. Did yeah and he represents an earlier version of conservationism. If you should've willoughby's the gun is at new metal. If you should've ild the beast with a gun canoe middle but you know. He came back from a lot of these expeditions. With fifty to five hundred taxidermied animals to display in the museum of natural history. It's not what we would consider conservationism exactly but it was conservationism back. It really was. And i think what we consider. Conservationism now is a product of of a generation of people that went to the museum of natural history and saw those news. I still can't take my daughter to any natural history. That's more than forty years old because it will be eighty percent taxidermy. Dioramas right and she doesn't want to see that right right. My sister either doesn't wanna see a set of the bald eagle but that was that i mean before widespread nature photography. And that was how you going to see zebra unless you went to a zoo which are also somewhat questionable. But roosevelt was was larger and larger than life as we as we have established. An enemy mean. He's still the president from around the turn of the century that we remember best we have lincoln and grant. And then there's a period where we have a we have several presidents that only ah jeopardy contestant would be able to to put in order. He really is the exception between maybe between grant. Fdr we've got wilson grant. Wilson is right and and he. Yeah he does. He's he's the He stands between them. Kind of We know tasked because taft is hilarious. And also taft was was roosevelt's apprentice in a way don't fast shaped no no he's just weighs. What is funny. I mean he's wonderful after he was an athlete even even guy. He served waikiki. Taft had attempts mustache made him very dynamic something. That people don't know a lot of surfers today. Don't have that mustache but they should. They should they don't they don't realize that that's part of the game. You can watch your mustache and your board at the same time. We're actually mustache. That's not a euphemism. But roosevelt roosevelt ascended to the presidency Not by not by being elected but but because he was the vice president and his president died. Can you name the president. That president was in the form of a question. Who is william mckinley. Yes what do. I win that now. Are you saying teddy. Roosevelt shot mckinley. Tenley teddy roosevelt at the buffalo expo. Someone tried to shoot teddy. They succeeded later but someone tried to shoot teddy and he stepped out of the way and the bullet hit mckinley. No that's not what happened. he did. He did matrix bulletin thing. But mckinley mckinley was assassinated. Teddy became the president at the time and still the youngest president ever. Yeah not kennedy. that's right. He was forty two when he took the office. Kennedy's the youngest elected which is a little different. Teddy served out mckinley term. He was assassinated early on in the term and then was elected a second time so he was president from one thousand nine hundred one thousand nine thousand nine and then After he was sort of handed off the presidency. To taft his pal. But then got frustrated. With taft and decided to run again for president and even though he'd served as president for eight years because he'd only been elected once he still was able. I mean there were no were no limit. It was kind of an informal. Only washington gets to well. Washington established two terms and so no one should happen beat washington but he had. He had the asterisk of while. I only had one point eight terms and it was. It was his His cousin that eventually the broke the rule. So it's the roosevelt's that really are are trying to try and to exceed the two-term limit. Rich kids rich kids since the nineteen twelve election is interesting. Because it's taft wilson and teddy roosevelt. Three past president future presidents running against each other right and and roosevelt. And taft split the split. The vote running as a third party but yeah. He's cannibalizing republican votes from a republican votes from taft. And so wilson ends up winning and the and the experience was demoralizing to roosevelt. Who kind of hadn't hadn't experienced a ton of loss up until that point is is. That was a real moment of reckoning. When you run as a third party candidate he started his own party. The bull moose party. And i don't know if you liked the name like to him or is the progressive party. But but you know the people have spoken and they decided they were nicknamed the bull moose party because he told reporters that he was fit and ready to run again. 'cause he was fitted the bull moose so fit as a bull moose and that became is that the the the hung around his neck. Well it's kinda rough. Yeah he didn't he didn't keep saying it. It wasn't part of his stump speech and the progressive party. I mean that's fascinating nomenclature. Given our current use of the word. I mean during that age when progressivism was a sign of vitality in the future. It wasn't today we would imagine that as being a super strong social justice party and it was not. It was a little little livered on civil rights issues. But yeah roosevelt. Was i mean. Roosevelt was lionized in his time and wildebeest will beasted even up. He won the nobel peace prize for For kind of brokering a peace between the russians and the japanese but having lost the having lost the election in nineteen twelve he kind of fell into a somewhat despondent state and roosevelt had gone on adventures before and most up until that point most notably after he after he handed the presidency. I guess over to taft. He went on and just to be clear. There wasn't election. But i mean you know after he ever his successor yeah He went on what we think now. Contemporary critics would look at this At this adventure as a Vacation as a vacation and and a super. It's the kind of vacation that when the trump sons do it. Now they're just vilified on social media. It was a it was a safaris unless safari but it was a safari sponsored by the smithsonian so representing this era where. You weren't just shooting elephants for fun. You were shooting elephants to bring back shooting elephants to understand them better. It was kind of river ex president to do anything back. Then i mean even now jimmy carter's pry building a house right now while you and just farting around the fogcast but roosevelt on his on his nineteen thousand nine expedition to africa killed or trapped. Eleven thousand four hundred. And how long was the trip. What's interesting about the trip. Is that at this point. In time. The presidency ended in march all right he. His presidency ended on march fourth and by march. Twenty thurs had marched forth He marched forth on march. Twenty third Computer and began this this enormous safari that lasted over a year. Like three weeks later. If it's wow. Yeah like three weeks later. I think You know i would still be unpacking. Yeah i would still be packing if it's about a year and he killed eleven thousand four hundred animals. That's over thirty a day. Yeah and a lot of the animals busy is it like great one hundred year. He's got a bunch of staff collecting butterflies for them and patting his totals so there are a lot of birds and reptiles and fish. I mean they're getting credit for stuff he didn't trap. That's what i want to say Yeah the whole the whole expedition which which was which numbered dozens of people you know. They're picking snails up off the ground and putting them in plastic for putting them in kill jars and those snails counts against the total. It's not eleven thousand four hundred lions kill. That's how new species get found and that he's getting snails and cuddle crawfish or whatever you know that shows that east understood in the in the glamour of shooting things. Yeah it was a it was a. It was a fantastic fantastically successful expedition. In terms of its time. Oh he killed eleven. Black rhinos eleven. Black rhinos are black round. Talks to joe or for why are we are we. We could have some of those back but but you know he's at the he's basically therefore the founding of the museum of natural history and basically like all zoological exhibitions in museums are. Are you know extend from this kind of like. let's go to. let's go to africa. It's a collection and get a collection going. And and it's it's purely in the colonialist model of assuming that africa is an undiscovered place and unmapped place and in pith helmets spinning to to explore and catalogue and map and define the continents in european terms. I'm wide. I get to keep whatever i found. European euro american terms in other words. But so so he. There's plenty of precedent in roosevelt's life for for this kind of adventure and in fact. He brought his son kermit with him. On this african adventure kermit was a freshman at harvard and got a got permission to go. Take a leave of absence for a year. Do we think current was a common name back. Then i don't think kermit common name the roosevelt's Although although they're the most famous roosevelt's are named ted and frank they also have plenty of sort of waspy waspy weird names kermit kind of an upper and upper class name at the time. Do you think. I can't think of another kermit. Except kermit has a son named kermit junior. That will probably talk about future omnibus. Yeah we are. This is a kermit roosevelt series. Yeah we're we're going to talk about. All the kermit's of roosevelt's great grandson is named tweed really. I wish i had more. I wish i was more adventurous in a guess. If i had nine kids maybe i would maybe i would name them things like tweeden mcgeorge and and frankfurter whatever you know. Give them like give them some interesting names. you think. Smaller family sizes leading to death. Bad like you think. Smaller family sizes leading the less name exploration. Yeah there's there are so many elizabeths now because everybody has one kid and they just. They named their daughter something that isn't going to. I mean you don't have one kid and name them mick. George kermit peaked in popularity in nineteen thousand nine when it was the one hundred and seventy fifth most popular boy's name in america. What's it derived from where what is its. What's its history kermit. The most recent the last time current was in the top one thousand nineteen seventy eight where it represented point zero four percent of total male births. People were naming their kids after the frog. When did seventy hey right. When did the when did the was kermit. Roosevelt senior born kermit was born in eighteen. Eighty nine now okay. So ninety nine seven could be an echo effect of having a well known presidential kid. The way i'm sure there are more chelsea's in in one thousand nine hundred and there were in nineteen eighty eight. I think that's that's probably one hundred percent true kermit was. Was you know a a a kid that grew up partly in the white house and he was. I mean grew up in the white house he was he was a kid. Throughout roosevelt's two terms in office. Oh by the way say. It's a version of the manx surname kermode. Oh but i've never known anyone named kermode that's just kicking the can a little more. I guess if there is I guess it's related to mcdermott. I don't know why kirk if your name was current mcdermott. It was fun to be a roosevelt kid in the white house. I've read stories about teddy making sure. He took off an hour every day. And just having children's hour just play with the kids and they'd slide down the stairs on cookie sheets can imagine. They just walked through the house with blunderbuss. Just just shooting at the chandeliers. Every member of the family had his or her own pair of stilts which. I'm sure the last white house family where everybody had. I bet it was fun to be kermit although like a lot of Like a lot of children of famous people. I think he was overshadowed by his father. A lot of his biggest adventures happened at his father's elbow. That kind of wonder what that's like like. You're probably aware that you're getting way more pluses out of it than minuses. So you feel like it would be churlish to complain about being born into fame and privilege. Yeah you still think. Why do i have to be the the footnote. Yeah you wonder. I think we're seeing. What the trump kids right now that they're really trying to assert themselves within their fathers orbit as individuals and are being strangely successful. You know i think i think. Don jr. is becoming a conservative. Pundit star right. I mean if done senior died tomorrow. God forbid don jr. would still have a career which it was not clear he was going to have before his father became president and avante. I'm sure it's going to land on her feet. And eric. I think has to ended up balancing. The book might actually get his ged. We don't yeah who knows but that's not true of a lot of children of famous people and these guys have the ultimate platform. It's not like it's not like the trump kids did it through pure aptitude and ingenuity. No well not ingenuity. But the i guess different kinds of aptitude right. If you're going to be a demagogue and you could. You could have an appetite. I mean in a post trump. I think it'll be interesting to see if any of that kind of magical halo that you certain a certain part of populist america's conferred on the trump will actually survive the end of their movement. And the kids will become the new repositories for it or not. Yeah i mean it's one thing for done junior to to be like a sort of a pit bull on behalf of his father would. He does that translate to power of his zone. Yeah as it's really never happened before like even in the case of plenty of us political dynasties but even in the case. I'm john quincy adams or a or a george w bush there you know. They got name recognition from their parents. But it's not like there was some kind of halo of of marketability that they that they inherited from all the george h w bush fans who were like. Hey who who's got more of that right. He had to go through the wilderness. I so kermit was Was raised in this environment of sliding down the stairs on a cookie sheet in was expected somewhat to follow in his father's footsteps. He went on the big safari to africa. He went to harvard but he seemed like a more retiring figure like a a like a shire. Kermit the frog like kermit. The frog sesame street news he wanted to. We wanted to live his own life and he and he didn't necessarily want to live like a public life but he kept kind of getting absorbed back into his father's orbit and and so their next adventure after he. After roosevelt lost the one thousand nine twelve election. he was despondent. He was now in his fifties and was sort of casting about wasn't sure what to do next and was offered an invitation to go south america on a on a speaking tour to just i mean he was. He was known worldwide as as an interesting rock on tour adventure. The survived an assassination attempt during the nineteen twelve election cycle and narrowly right. Yeah famously like kept the bullet in his chest. He that's the that's the story. Where he he was shot and finished his speech But the but they never took the bullet out. It was still there so he was. He was a macho character. And of course that's you can. You can imagine him going to rotary clubs throughout argentina and being really celebrated. It's funny. We expect that from presidents today. But i guess it was an option in nineteen thirteen as well sure got to pay the bills but also have to keep busy and once he was scheduled to do this speaking tour of of south america a he said you know it'd be cool as if we did like a like a kind of safari a version of of the safari we did in africa will get a bunch of guys together and remember. Yeah go up the go up. The amazon will collect a bunch of red dad. Trying to recreate the fun family outing vacation the second time. It's kind of hard. It's a little hard right and it's especially hard. It's one thing to to start adventure in africa in nineteen. Oh eight having just successfully been the president for two terms. It's another thing to go on an adventure in nineteen thirteen when you just lost an election. It's just it's just got a little bit of shadow over it already. What's the what's the expedition. Does he do the speaking gigs. So he goes on the speaking gigs and his and his plan is to do a kind of a an outing. Where you could keep your white linen suit. On the whole time you know like i assume that was most of his adventuring. Yeah like like butterfly collecting like you ride an elephant and reporters porters who take who make sure that the camp chairs are set up before you just now. It just occurred to me before you get to the expedition to me that the appeal of lecture tours would have been even greater back when there was no really no radio or tv opportunity to to to cease a celebrity action to to hear and see a famous name. Like really. your only chance to this is before newsreels. Even write your only chance to hear. Teddy roosevelt would be to wait for him to come to your town and pack into the odeon or whatever at the exhibition hall where he rolls out of stuff tiger and tells the story of being shot. So that's why charles dickens twain or whatever spends their twilight years doing that because that's that's the only platform besides publishing and it's a. Yeah that's right. He's roosevelt famously published books about his adventures and so he would go on speaking tours. That were that. Were basically book to imagine getting in the book. Line for teddy roosevelt. How's it going to make this out to a but once he's in south america. He as he's planning this adventure. he's kind of He's introduced to one of the most famous brazilian explorers of his era and and the and he's recommended to roosevelt as his guide for this adventure. Why don't you tell me instead of asking me who the most famous brazilians explorers nineteen. Go ahead run down some some among you tell me this is i'll tell you if he's in my top ten. Okay it's a man named candido run. Don do you know do you know. Candied no can can dido. I just realized. I know his last name from the from the expedition ended up co leading with tr. Dido run dome. That's so run. Ken dido and there's little santa Over the in candido. What does that. What does that say about his pronunciation. Its portuguese fourteen. This is the same as spanish. That just means you put the accent. On the first sunday it would not be condo. It's condie your sunday. you're saying all right. Come around on and senior ron. John is a larger than life legendary figure in brazil. He's he's the son of his father was portuguese and spanish but also had a lot of indigenous forebears and his mother also was largely an indigenous like brazilian natives. And he's like an amazon explorer. He's an he's a. He's an amazon explorer but he went through sort of a traditional route. He became he joined the military. He was a surveyor and did a lot of the exploration of the brazilian interior in the sort of turn of the nineteenth twentieth century era. He he was a pioneer of the telegraph. So he would. He was the first person to connect brazil to peru and bolivia via telegraph that involved. Exploring tough routes completely uncharted territory. And this was an era when there were still a lot of contacted tribes and a lot of contacted tribes that were extremely hostile to outsiders like Rondon contacted tribes. Where every other person that had ever come in contact with them had been killed by poison. Arrows and run was the first the first european or the first representative of of the colonial power to make contact with these tribes and take a poison dart in the chest and still finish his speech in fact he will see in a second. That was kind of one of his models. I'll take a poison dart for you but this was a time when central south america was one of the last completely uncharted places. Yeah it's interesting that a brazilian explorers doing domestic exploration of his own interior. The way that would have happened in the us one hundred years earlier if you look at a map of south america and kind of make a big circle right in the very heart of it which is which would be in south western brazil. You make a big heart shape their That was a territory. That was a lot of. It is amazon river tributaries and and completely unexplored like thick jungle. It's it's flat country on the other side of the of the mountains but like very very i mean really far away i guess far away from the coasts and hard to access anyway so don was famous in brazil he This was an area called the mato grosso with was literally for think. Bush matt yes they simply thick bush and it was populated by by contacted tribes and crazy wild animals and a network of uncharted rivers that all presumably flow to the amazon. But isn't it ironic that back then The place that was called thick bush was brazilian. Today those are opposites when you think about it but that talk one comment deserves its own omnibus entry. He ended up serving all of brazil's foreign countries. And so he's he's this like great adventure and proposed to roosevelt as the as the guide for roosevelt's riverboats expedition to collect butterflies. Vip will get you funding. That's right this is an era where there are a lot of european explorers competing to To contact these tribes to discover the great the lost cities of the amazon. There's the There's the famous pursuit of the lost city of z which was The kind of like maybe fatal. Fascination of a of a man named percy fawcett. Right the idea that there are these giant mesoamerican cities in the in the lost in the rain choked by rainforests. And you can be. And the first person to discover it would be made a famous archaeologist. And sadly percy fawcett pursued the lost city of z until he got lost himself and died in the jungle in one thousand nine hundred eighty five only to have a plausible lost city discovered shortly after his death by others. The city of kooky kuku kuku but he did get his own. What netflix movie or amazon movie. So it's okay. Well it's good more constantly given the setting probably amazon all kinds of all kinds of things. plausibly existed up there in the jungle up river and so roosevelt in talking to in talking to run. Dome you can imagine the conversation where says shirl guide you on a on a butterfly or like. Oh god you on a safari. But you know. I've got some got some. Here's the real mystery. Yeah i've got some exploring to do. I've discovered the headwaters of an uncharted river in my telegraph line laying mission of last year. And we think teddy and kermit's eyes light up this or are are they more into their Their white linen expedition. So kermit's not involved at this point but teddy very definitely is light up. This is an opportunity to to go on an adventure that has a scientific basis. And that would be. He's you know. This is a very like livingston. I presume style charting uncharted land or uncharted by europeans. not something. he's really done before despite all his travels and and hard to increasingly hard to do even then And you know so funny to imagine an ex-president doing this at the age of fifty or early fifties to say like like. We're impressed when george w bush starts takes up takes up acrylic painting. Yeah this'll be more like I'm going to go into space or you know. I'm going to mars base or something right. It's precisely that like to go a in a ba'athist fear to the bottom of the ocean and lived there for a year so rosendahl decides yes. I want to do this. This soft mission that i went on. This is my last chance to be a boy. And i wanna i want to join you on your expedition to discover the the route of a river that That rondon had christened the river of doubt what what is the doubt. The doubt is exists that nothing is known about it. He found the headwaters and he knows that it connects to a tributary of the amazon Called the ari. Poo on ya river now in at the the little The arup on the thing that should be over the end is over the edge. The tiller the tilda. What does that mean so. It's not our report anya. it's are on. it's like a portuguese pronunciation. Those are nasal in portuguese won the in spanish. All that ever does go in right but imports. It makes it valid nasal to. I know how to say no ari one. That was that was guttural. All on me. I appear on pointing. I'm sure that's super close. So the so the river was it was it was known where the river connected to the larger amazonian so they get their tributaries you said nowhere wet and they well. They see. They found run. Don't found the headwaters which were far far out in south western brazil and the river flowed north okay so he has both ends of the river and but no idea where it went or what it did and if this is the big adventure right of exploring the jungle is what is there. No it could be the lost city of z. It could be a portal to or the entrance point of a hollow earth. It could be that there. Are you know they're still an advanced civilization living buried in the jungle They know that there are that. There are contacted tribes that want to remain on contacted and in fact once their adventure started for most of the time they were shadowed by tribes by By tribes though like in the night would shoot arrows at their dogs and stuff but never never revealed themselves and so there was palpable. Menace the entire time that they were being surveilled not attacked but not left alone either. The brazil witch project basically. Yeah that's right. The brazil which project so they mount this they amount. What is going to be a sizable and and considerably dangerous expedition. That's going to require a month just to arrive at the headwaters. Right at which point roosevelt's wife very concerned that her middle aged husband is embarking on getting in over his head. Re really like this crazy expedition. Roosevelt's full of of a bowl and blustered bully you. Bully and window knows stan when people suggest that this is above his pay grade he makes several comments to the effect that If his if his bones left to rot in the amazon than that's how he wants to go he'd rather he'd rather go that way. Then you know then die sitting in a chair now. He's in his mid fifties like he's not but he's not on his deathbed but that's probably you know cl- the fitness the life expectancy of sixty sixty something today. So yeah although who knows. I mean with it. Roosevelt does end up having a shortened life. But it's and and this. This perhaps played a role. Oh is that right. Is this take a toll on him. Yeah but so edith. His wife and kermit's mom suggests that kermit go with his father largely to look after him. Keep an eye and brought. What a terrible idea right. Put put your interest of them. They're like if something. It's not like whatever the dangers of the headwaters of the river are. It's not like your your kid. Harvard is going to be any better than your fifty year old husband but it's perhaps perhaps testament to their confidence in kermit that he has an older brother. Teddy roosevelt senior and teddy roosevelt senior isn't although he is an explorer and he and kermit do go on expeditions. Later on in life they have a son they have another teddy roosevelt son. Who's also an explorer. He doesn't get the nod Didn't get the nod here no Maybe he has. Maybe he has a wife and kids. Is that the issue kermit's stelling college unattached so teddy the younger and he's actually teddy roosevelt. Three oh really yeah. There's a teddy roosevelt teddy roosevelt seniors. Actually the old president is teddy roosevelt. Junior yeah he was by then. You're absolutely right. Established in in business and in banking and was a you know wasn't like going off on adventures with his dad as a as a kid in his twenties. Yeah he goes on to be the governor. Puerto rico and of the philippines and assistant secretary of the navy. So he was you know. I mean. that's why you can't tax. He was the political member of the family right but so they set off on this adventure they have a. They have naturalists in their party. Lots of lots of porter's and various other you know. I think they still did imagine that although this was going to be a adventure full of hardships and also real science that they were going to be able to maintain a certain amount of civil A certain amount of civility in the in the other sense of the term. We're not beasts right. I'm sure they packed. China service for freight. They may have but they failed to pack adequate food ants and And other and medicine. Oh so even. By the time they arrived at the headwaters of the river of doubt a starting point. It was already clear that they did not have enough gear and had had not run anything the scale before you know it was that run own i think was a was more rough and tumble i mean he was. He was hardy and and someone who had not just recently been. President of the united states needs three grams of goat jerky a day and a mouthful of dirty water. And he's good. Yeah and this party was i. Don't think that they were dilettantes. But they were not prepared for the scale of hardship. They were about to face and so even before they started down the river. A large portion of the party kind of broke off and said we're not going to be able to to follow all the way if we all go down the river. It's going to be. It's going to be a massive disaster so a much smaller party of around. Twenty people set off roosevelt kermit road on and and and assorted orders and And they're immediately sort beset by hardship. They're traveling in dugout canoes which are heavy and ungainly and part deportes. If you have to write extremely hard to poor taj and almost immediately they realized that this river is full of waterfalls an impassable rapids. So there's lots of and they're pulling those canoes out and carrying them around waterfalls multiple times a day. So they're making they're making very little progress at one point something like they're reduced to traveling seven miles a day when on a you know going on stream on a river you should be. You should be covering a lot more territory. And i'm sure the stores were the the food stores had. That had the river speed in mind. Yeah exactly right. And then there. There are besieged by gnats and mosquitos time. They stopped moving even for a second there covered with bugs They get malaria. Roosevelt gets malaria so badly That he ends up kind of at death's door. And then he gets a bad cut and infection on his leg and descends into a kind of delirious sickness where everyone assumes that he could die at any moment. And you hear you hear that a lot when you talk about people on great adventures that like he was near death and then recovered triumphantly marched down the avenue of heroes but in fact for for a lot of the adventure he was being carried on a litter he was he did not bounce back. He was insensible he. It was assumed every night he wouldn't live through the night and at one point he said to kermit you. Leave me behind. I'm holding back the the adventure and you know. Let me die and kermit said i'm going to carry your body out either way. Yeah and so. If you're dead it's worse because it will just make it so much harder so please continue to take your iodine and live in prague requena. Sorry that's what i meant a contender. Take your quinine an and and live. Because you're you're easier to move if you can you know at least lift your arms and roosevelt did You know they rallied. Is spirits kermit also suffering from from malaria but we could very easily had a us president. No president has ever died overseas. I'm pretty sure almost left. One left one in the middle of nowhere in brazil they did. It wasn't successful. They did gather a lot of specimens and they did chart the river of everyone in the party. Only ron don did not get sick and somehow he had just sort of natural immunity to the of years of those bugs. Yeah years in the in the bush there was even a a one point. Kermit's dugout canoe got caught in a world pool and went over a rapid and and kermit swam to safety but one of the porters like went over the waterfall and and there were actual deaths. Not everybody made it back. In one case one of the porters was caught by another one stealing food and he having been caught shot the the shot his his accuser and then ran off into the jungle and the the party tried to pursue him but couldn't find him and so left him so presumably he also perished. Or maybe he's the father of a whole generation of of mystique. Oh children yeah. He's still there one hundred and sixty years old preserved by whatever. We're amazon mushrooms. Preserved by mushrooms and amber amber agree. Probably not but they finally made it out. They did make it down river and were rescued at the sort of the confluence of the river of doubt and the ari pool on knew And when you know when roosevelt then received medical treatment by the time he arrived back in the united states he was just able to walk down the gangplank of the ship and which. I'm sure he was released. They were probably photographers impressed right. I mean he. It was one of those. I think were they. Lifted him up and put the handrail under him and he was able to walk. He was not feeling so bully. Not so bully. He he was. There was considerable doubt that he had can that. He actually traveled as far as he had that. This the considerable doubt in the popular press again accusations like the river doubt. Yes slurs that he had kind of. It wasn't possible that he actually charted a thousand miles of unchartered river. But he on another speaking tour you know. He wrote a book and and angrily defended his reputation. And i think convinced people that he had actually done what he'd done that does get the taste of his election loss out of his mouth now that he has a new battle the fight and this one can. He knows he can win. On the merits run. Dawn actually became a a larger than life figure in brazil. He was one of the first people to advocate strongly for the creation of parks and reserves. That would be off limits to people in order to present in order to to to maintain uncon- on contacted trotz. Teddy roosevelt brazil. In in a way he is in fact that whole territory that they They were Transiting is actually now the state of rondonia. Wow within brazil. America will name states after anybody. There's two states name for king charles that nobody cares about although yeah i mean. In this case it was the state of thick. Bush became the state of rondonia. Instead he was he was a this was an era. And i think it's kind of it's kind of may be true now where the philosophy of positive ism was was still sort of ascendant in in the world of of educated statesman. How do you mean it was. The kind of it was positive. Ism was the philosophy of science that That we could only know what we could see and measure and meta physics and You know the that civilization happened in three stages and the first stage was that was religion that you attribute everything that happens in the natural world to god and then the intermediate stage was a kind of post enlightenment. Metaphysical world where. You're curious about the world of poetry and feelings and humanism right and then positive ism was supposed to be the third world or the i mean the third the final evolution where where of that loosey goosey poetry stuff is is recognized as unquantifiable and a world that is that is quantifiable and deducible and Reducible becomes kind of the guiding that that is the that's the final evolution where where we know. We base our knowledge on what we can know. And it's a and it's a an era of individualism. It's a it's the the presumption is that government is necessary to rule over people who are living in a world where where they believe in the supernatural and a world where they believe in the poetical. But once you arrive at positive ism than each person can self govern. because there's evidence of their own senses there's no superstition and one and so so rhone his desire to create these. These preserves where the indigenous people can live on contacted was an expression of his belief that that they that those tribes were not inferiors. But we're simply living in the first of three stages and in in order to get them to the metaphysical stage and to the then the positive phase it had to be a process of attraction rather than promotion and his motto as as a foreshadowed his motto was in exploring the interior of brazil was die if need be but never kill and in all of his work in contacting and working with and for lack of a better term. I think he would have said domesticating making making a diplomatic making diplomatic inroads with the trial and they never. They apparently never kill violence. Yeah and that and it was That's what passes for enlightened in one thousand nine hundred eighty. I didn't kill a single indian. I coulda i coulda. It was the technique they used was described as flirting and we talked about it in subtler and con- you know where you you go and you leave a little pile of leaving nuts and then get out. And then pierre adam through binoculars passing out. Do you like coconut one. Yes no we can give you more coconuts so he runs on and i think i think of course all of all of that methodology in that way of thinking has been discredited. I don't think anybody really believes in positive ism anymore. It some because it's so insufficient to describe if you take all of the humanism out of arts and letters. I mean basically you'd be taking arts and letters out of your consideration and you might need some of those letters later. You're going to need them later. You're going to need to rip that letter off your letter. Sweater and turn bark into fork. Unfortunately the the the sickness and injury that teddy experienced in In exploring the river of doubt which the expedition was renamed rio roosevelt. I'll it's nice. Although rundown knows what side. His his tortillas veteran and roosevelt is apparently a difficult name to pronounce in portuguese and so super easy and english either. We're not crazy about our roosevelt weird dutch where dutch vowels. But so it's colloquially colloquially known as as rio teddy that's funny and there's actually a tributary that's also named rio kermit on just because sure. Why not always a bridesmaid whether kermit's can end up being president but teddy carries his brazilian injuries with him and dies a few short years later. Oh at the age of sixty. It like a complication. What's the cause of death. He was so weakened by By the by the malaria and the infections that he never fully recovered and And i think dying age sixty is premature for a man as hale and hearty it throws gets a real yeah. It's a real life lesson about how to manage a midlife crisis you know. Keep keep the downsides in mind when you say i need a fresh start which way to the to the mato grosso when you get to the headwaters and you realize that you're white linen suit isn't going to cut it. You have a choice like go back to the hotel. It's not a phase of your life for reinvention and that's the tragedy of midlife. Crises is people thinking. This is my time for reinvention. No sir you're you're in your fifties you you are now you you have missed that you are you right and i think i think you could. I think roosevelt probably saw his presidencies as times when he was off the market. He should have been out shooting elephants during that whole period that's true and He's still feels young and hardy and and But he didn't i mean he survived it but didn't survive. It never lived it down. So maybe your own did actually kill one person. He he assassinated president. I think that ron deng got away with the crime. Despite his motto and that includes the river of doubt entry one zero seven six seven two zero eight certificate number two seven five. Three one in the omnibus. Now just for your reference in the future if there's any cultural memory of social media obviously positive positive is and can no longer prove the existence of any particular social media platform or other to you true as we know. So you're going to have to rely on our word for it that we were at omnibus project that ken jennings john roderick on twitter and etc facebook instagram john abnormally fans. I think you could email us at the omnibus project at gmail.com com. Send us your portuguese. Princess in corrections. Your are eager to hear them. Yeah i just implied they tortillas there. You're not going to let that stand. Are you hoping. But but you're talking about egg egg-based tortillas those in brazil please correct me on which flat breads or starches are most appropriate to brazilian cuisine. And i couldn't think of which king charles north carolina was named for. You can tell me that you could tell me all kinds of things. I will read it but we're not sure will feel better. You can send us physical items. I don't know what that would be. But if you have something you need us to see coconuts senate floor with us. See if see if through coconuts. You can bring us out of our respective jungles. I have here something that. Jj for beano cintas. i'm i'm revealing. Because he goes by verbs. I don't know if his dj name but cut creator but he sent us a couple copies of his a split ep. he doesn't want to call it an ep. Since there's only three songs oh who did he split it with. I don't. I don't know why it's split. Maybe he means like it's a parcel ep. But i mean. I think a split. Ep is where the bands contribute songs to either side of an ep. Is he coining a new use of it which is just that it's three songs. Oh no it appears there is another name on the back right split. Ep front porch revival. Okay why are you interested in the non verbs band. I'm not it's just a split ep. I've i've a split seven inch with spiral stairs He says he is not able to support our patriot now but he enjoys the show and would like us to listen to his music and exchange and i think that's the same i wouldn't you know i liked cash but also like i also like when people give me a mix tape curfew free music. Same uh thank you. Jj and What else do we do it. Anybody send us their grandad's closed sadly maybe next time since i mentioned the patriot on if you are unable to send us a split ep. I'm sorry you are required then to become a supporter of the show or make a split ep at patriot dot com slash omnibus project. You will receive benefits like bonus episodes if like two to three hours a week of omnibus is not enough and once you hear one of the bonus episode. You'll realize it's what you were missing. It is if you don't think there's just enough of us dinking around in a regular show. We keep having to get back to brazilian geography. Imagine a version of a thousand brazilian geography to return to i. You know when. I when i was preparing that episode and i realized that that region brazil was called thick bush. I tried to anticipate what you would do with that. What what corny joke you would make. It's just one of these. These topics were always accused of doing. But then you think bush then you leaned into it and and i think really pulled it off and that's the kind of this. This show is is. So i think creatively success. Someone who has never like a single thing. I've said on this show that that actually means i liked it wasn't upon it was i mean you had puns around it but it was fun adjacent tonnage. There are another more elites benefit from supporting. The omnibuses is actually getting to suggest the topic of a show and In this case we have told the story of kermit roosevelt. So that in the near future we can tell you the story of a different kermit roosevelt. A story suggested by thirty bronze so that will be coming up soon. More kermit contact content to our kermit content to come are song podcasts. About kermit's you can Find fellow like-minded omnibus listeners. Of the future. Ling's on reddit or dischord or more especially facebook and boy. That's it. I feel like it is from our vantage point in your distant past up the amazon of history. The amazon of your own. Vm's on amazon up your amazon up. Amazon of Of a time when tonnes were still legal punishable by death. We have no idea how long civilization survived. Or if you could even call it that we open pray the catastrophe we fear may never come but if the worst comes soon this recording like all our recordings may have been our final word but it providence allows. We hope to be back with you soon for another entry.

roosevelt kermit taft teddy roosevelt mount rushmore bull moose party Roosevelt brazil africa amazon washington mckinley south america Harvard john rodrick las jefferson Whereas roosevelt theodore roosevelt national pa william mckinley calvin coolid percy fawcett
Winifred Sackville Stoner Jr. (Entry 1229.MT1125)

Omnibus! With Ken Jennings and John Roderick

56:59 min | 2 years ago

Winifred Sackville Stoner Jr. (Entry 1229.MT1125)

"I'm Dani Shapiro, my new podcast family secrets, just wrapped up its first season and it's filled with stories about the secrets that are kept from us secrets to keep from others and the secrets, we keep from ourselves if you've been waiting for the right time to binge them all now's your chance. Check out the episodes, along with bonus interviews and stories and keep an ear out for the next season in August. You can find out more at family secrets podcast dot com, and you can listen and subscribe at apple podcasts, or on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to podcasts on the buses production of iheartradio. Many. And. This message. We are Ken Jennings and John Rodrick. We speak to you from our present which we can only assume as your distant past the turbulent time that was the early twenty first century during the great cataclysm that will surely befall our civilization. We began this monumental reference of strange obscure human knowledge, these recordings, represent our attempt to compile and preserve wonders an esoteric that would otherwise be lost. So whether you're listening from an advanced civilization or just reinvented. The technology to decrypt our transmissions. This is our legacy to you. This is our time capsule. This is the honest bus. You have access. Entry one two, two nine dot M T, one one two five certificate number three, five, five, five, one Winifred Sackville donor junior. You wanna know the common element for the entire group like he asks, I'll tell you the answer up, seventy I had that one carbon carbon in Pennsylvania is from graphite in coal is mixed with other impurities and the diamond. It's in hard form what we really wanted to know was the coming out with Madani. But thank you for all that unnecessary knowledge kits head. So full of useless knowledge. Thank you. Thank you. And the book says we may be through with the past. But the past is not through with us. I don't think listeners of my time would be surprised to hear that. I was a universally lauded, self-proclaimed smart kid when I was in elementary school. I bet you were a smart kid, were you the smartest kid in your class? Jim number one class had a kind of generally understood smartest kid. Maybe that's still true. I think it may be. It is still true. There's definitely kind of I remember kind of a competition like you knew who the who's loses ones were vying. Right. I think in my case, it was a big part of my identity because my parents were really dead set on getting me into kind of a gifted kids program here in Seattle, public schools. So I had to go do tests where I would do puzzles, and was it the dig program? What was it called? I don't know if I can remember getting what did dig stand for something, something? I was in. I was going to ask if you're a smart. Kid because I assume you were also smart, and even though you have stories having to hang out with the middle, the junior, high principal, because you were such a I was disciplined problem. Right. But the only reason I survived to this day that I was smart kid. Although in elementary school in my elementary school. There were the two kids vying for like teacher's pet smartest. Kid status were Laurie, Baz ler and diminish or go billerica, two minute or two minutes or Filipino miniature on the show, and Dominica or was, I think the smartest but Lori was certainly extremely smart. And maybe just wasn't diminish had just that sharpness. And then I was third, and I was the loose cannon. The one that was maybe the smartest but not, you'll most likely to squander his talent. Right. That's exactly what it was. It was like they never knew when I was gonna come out of left field with. Like the right the big, big right answer. But most of the time, I was just sort of slack, but I think it was test scores test scores. I was the smartest. Yeah. Somehow like there's a series of like very specific tasks that if a kid just happens to have the knack for the establishment can just see. And we'll decide that they are the future of the species on the Iowa basic tests. I had ninety nine across the board to why was why is synonymous with Donna standardized testing of the seventies it really was. But, you know, the SAT like the whole, I graduate as we've discussed right last in my class from high school. I was absolutely. Like there were ten or fifteen kids who had hired GPA's than I did who failed to graduate, but I was a national merit scholar because of the SAT's. So it was always that the tension between those two things I was I was up, but also was gonna make it. Or if I wasn't gonna make it, it was, I really, I really had to work to squander. You're right. You're going to skate, Bion aptitude, which is, you know. Really laudable which are still doing, but you were top of your class, I'm guessing, not in highschool salutatorian, so severe runner up. I guess I like how our word for not a smart assed minute or so. It was you, you were second yes class valedictorian. Very young kid. I remember kind of having the curse that often comes with some of these markets having a very dutiful and doting set of parents. Right. So I had a mom, who was always the one telling the principal. Hey, even though he's in kindergarten. He needs to be a higher reading shuttled off to the highest classroom. The school, the third grade classroom, but that will destroy a lot of kids at it didn't destroy. You apparently not like the third graders were sports about it and was like, hey, it's this mascot kid and didn't seem to mind me. But I remember also my mom after some art teacher had kind of chewed out my work at some point, I remember a breakfast one morning. My mom being like where's that Hayworth that picture you do the other day? And I'm not knowing what she wanted to. Handed a tour. And it turned out she had gone to school and been, like look at this, right? Exer- drew of Hans solo in the cloud city of look at it. Look at the are you telling me that this is the kind of student who should be getting chewed out by the art teacher a little over? All. I don't know. Did you have a mom, who is ever hassle in your principle? A my mom did go down in the case of my sister, and say, because she the sense was that there was a teacher, that was just picking on, Susan, for whatever reason my mom went down, and had again, my mom all about documentation. She had a homework assignments, where Susan had been marked wrong on things that were demonstrably, right. Like just math problems stuff, the where mom could prove it. She had receipts. And she had and the teacher was, I guess, brought down to the principal's office censured in some way. But no, she never no one ever went to bat for me. Because like you were all right with your IRA test. Aptitude. Well, yeah, the assumption was that any trouble I got into I deserved. Honestly, my wife's cousins kid was one of these high school, screw ups and, but he tested really, really well. And they were finally told, hey, just let him screw up. He's going to have to figure it out. At some point, basically, he's got the test scores as backstop. Right. The kid eventually got into the air force academy on a fencing scholarship. I think they whipped him into shape, you know, these these kids generally end up doing okay? But I do kind of cringe looking back at myself, because it becomes such a part of your identity. When you're constantly told in a million small ways that, that you are the boy, you're the bright, boy, you're the shining, light. I got into college on a special program. A Jesuit school had a special program for I boys for bad boys. Father Flanagan's voice was. Yeah. It was bad boys that had good test scores that was their program, and I and I, I was never going to go to college. A long winters record called bad boys had good. That's kind of your, your rocky those two, but my sense of you is that you wouldn't have been a teacher's pet because you're a little bit more of a class, clown. Yeah. Do you realize smart kid is not the best social identity? Right. So you got to fall back on something else, and a lot of smart kids because they're quick. They can fall back on funny kid. Yeah. I mean neither Dominica door nor Laurie. Basler were especially funny. So I had that son got that so up. But did you ever have a true class clown to vibe with someone who, who only had funny who wasn't also gifted who, that's a good question. You know, I think I've said this on the store omnibus before, but in there was a class quantum. My first grade classroom, I think it was, I think it was Eric are Eric was kind of a mean one. Eric are we have three Eric's and the morning of may whatever nineteen eighty Eric are beans over to me during the? Pledge of allegiance. And he whispers about Saint Helen blue it's peanuts yesterday, and I started laughing star to the it's one of the funniest things anyone's ever said to me Ellen blue. It's peanuts yesterday. I never said that on the show. There were you'd remember I would. So there were kids who were just funny, who really made me laugh, but being the prodigy is a little bit tough like it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. So it probably pushes a lot of these kids to do good work. But aren't they always coming at you because they're coming at the king? I don't know how you mentioned elementary school, or it's not quite as adversary of that. I went to school in Alaska. It really was bare food. I think what happens more often? It's kids will hit the wall like they'll realize because they've been skating by with little effort. At some point, they'll hit the, the calculus class, or whatever it is where they cannot just skate. That's what happened to me. And then they're like, oh, well, screw this, or, you know, in my case, I don't I did hit that. But I guess when I constantly deal with is kind of waterdown kind of imposter syndrome, where I feel like I had all this early promise, and I did turn out, I turned out fine. But it kind of feels like like smartest boy in the world turned out five, but it's, it's all parlor tricks. I didn't found a company, right? The great American novel there were. No. There was turned out there was no genius in me. I found out how to leverage that my Iowa test abilities for good. So it turned out I was clever, but merely clever. And so in some way, I have not lived up to whatever the potential was that my parents than the big programs. Invent the Salk vaccine, right. Exactly. She did get a blue ribbon at the county fair. I got a blue ribbon on jeopardy, which is kind of America's county fair like a big pig. Now, did you ever have another bright kid who threatened to knock you off your pedestal? Yeah. A lot of kind of Grimes. There's your Fonzie. Ouch. I mean, and that's exactly right. And the problem with diminished, or, and Laurie Basler's. I couldn't really accuse them of being grind. They truly were smart. You should have gone to high school in Seoul, Korea filled with just these bright hard-working fresh prairie dogs of tomorrow. Rove these a lot of them Asian American kids, I was not Valerie Taurean because Chrissy co had a four point three GPA. How is that even possible not shouldn't it stop it for it does that she was at four point three, some, I think they waited if you took certain number AP classes, or something would you have gone to a I mean, would you have been accepted at an Ivy league school? If you had wanted to go, I got into Stanford, so I think I could have gotten it ninety and why did you go to BYU? Instead I went to you, Doug of high school because I wanted to come back to Seattle where I had always wanted to live in it never been able to get close to those mud. Honey shows that you'd never went. At two, I sent I sensed a dawning of a new kind of culture of here in nineteen ninety two and I said, I'm gonna go to Seattle and never go to show, you sense, the dawning in that it was on the cover of time magazine. I think it was more like these sub pop labels, will eventually start to turn out like power pop and folk fans and then I'll be more into. That's right. I was waiting for the second wave. But this, this thing of being child, prodigies very common. And I was I've always been struck by the story of one Winifred, Sackville Stoner junior. You've known about Winifred for a long time. I've known of one of her accomplishments. She did one thing that we still know today, which I will get to I believe it will survive in the future. Leagues era. I love. Well, I love her name. It's not a name, you would typically here, even the hipsters that are naming their kids like Beatrice, and we haven't got to Bertha or Horton busy, you'll Winifred, but you don't hear women for the red at the end. I feel a real disincentive that's right. To be a woman named Fred. That's the problem with Bertha. I'm sure someone listening to the show right now is either named Bertha or has named their child Bertha and they're thinking what's wrong with Bertha, but really it. The pendulum swung back ten times. Or one hundred times by the time anyone listen to this for a while all the Brittany's were grandma's, and all the babies were Bertha's, and then it flopped. And then flopped again, you know, so it just keeps the Heather's and the and the Winifred just keep changing places. My, my school bus when I was at YMCA camp in nineteen. Seventy five was named Bertha. The bus was named Bertha did set just go back to the the gun. I guess I guess, whatever the first person who said, big Bertha just ended Bertha events the thing because the gun was named somebody came up with that before the gun. Right. I guess you think big Bertha predates big birth as a gun. I think so. I think they named Bertha big birth of the gun. Well, we'll talk about big birth on a future omnibus. We'll get into this, the thing that interesting most her name is junior, we do not see junior much in true junior junior and senior kind of an Americanism, by the way, it's not they're not used that way. In other parts of the does it always, and three. Yeah. Maybe that's more likely or you know there's no laws regulating this particular, if you have the exact same name as your parent your a junior in their a senior dad was a junior, but he never went by that. And you're not a third. No. Well, in my understanding, I don't remember whether I read this in some miss manners compilation in the eighties, but your number reflects how many of those generations are alive. So if your name is John Smith and your great, great, great, great, great, grandfather was John Smith. You're not John Smith. The sixth. You're only either a second or third, if your grandfather is still alive. I know you said that on the omnibus before I have. Yes. And I'm still confident that it's wrong. Is that right? I think how many times do you, do you go to a law firm and the guy's name is John Smith. Seventh there. But there are people named John Rockefeller the fourth or fifth or whatever I mean I do they put that on their on their letterhead. Or do we just refer? To them, colonial because the Gilligan's island killed it like once it became a millionaire cliche to be have an awful number after your name. I'm the third and by your theory, I should be junior by now. Because my grandpa died in the ninth. Yeah you go up one. You advance until death do really in your family. The name Ken Jennings is such a powerful name that it's like we can't, we're not going to ever let go of this named your son Dylan. I could've been. He could've been Kenneth Wayne Jennings. The fourth. What a what a. Connects. So nothing about the definition makes it for boating for a woman to be junior named after her mother. You just don't see it a lot and named after her mother with her mother's married name. That's true as well. That makes it tricky. Yeah. So yes, so it's exactly as for mothers, but her mother's as it is now in her rest, the most famous junior woman in American history is probably Ellen. Our Franklin Eleanor Roosevelt, only daughter, who often went by Anna, Eleanor Roosevelt junior, interestingly, she was the women's editor at the Seattle PI for a while, with PI for post intelligence, which I did not know post Intelligencer, just didn't I just didn't know Eleanor Roosevelt daughter, edited their, their decor. Page recipes I didn't either not what she doing here and recently Serena Williams, named her daughter Alexis Olympia Owen, Ian junior. Named after whom no one for the father's name is Alexis or Hanin. Olympia is a new middle name belonging to no one Olympia. So she is Alexis. Oh, Honey junior after her data. I suppose although with a different middle name. Well, I mean, you're entitled to name your child anything you want Rosen. Hey, in this day, eight, like I believe, women can do anything, including have the letters j r dot after their name you go girl. Well, I mean, if you can, if you can be named Goodluck Jonathan and ascend to the presidency of your nation, I suppose you could I feel like it's easier to become president with a name like Goodluck Jonathan Jonathan, you could just name your your next child, which surely you and Mindy are planning or absolutely just name them. Like quiz winner Jimmy if we have a surprise baby in our fifties. It will absolutely be named quiz winner jenning. How would you. How would you vote quiz? Winter a great name for a wizard. It's spelled with a K W like Kwami it's like it's a nod to Africa, the continent, we all, but pronouncing home quiz winner. It's actually quiz. Weiner. You know, I've been feeling kind of down Ken. I've got some very high interest rate credit card debt, and I'm not sure what to do. You're looking to save a little moola so. Well, if you some liens. Smackers. What's your what's your favorite slang, by the way for money, clams, you want to save a few clamp? I do wanna save some clams. And right now, I'm paying a lot of interest on my debt. Let me recommend some AD, John, what are you refinance your credit card balances and save with a credit card consolidation loan from Whitestream. How would that work? They will offer you a fixed rate as low as six point one four percent APR. If you use auto pay so you can get a loan from five thousand to one hundred thousand dollars with no fees at all. How does that sound? It sounds good. But how can I know to trust light stream dot com their division of SunTrust Bank? One of the nation's largest financial institutions. I want to offer you a way to save even more. I want to give our listeners an additional interest rate discount. Tell me how, what do you think about that? Only one way to get this discount, John. He needed to go to light, stream dot com slash omnibus. You mean. L. I. G. H. T. S. T. R. E A, M dot com slash omnibus, lower your spelling is as good as your credit management offer. Subject to credit approval rate include. Two point five percent discount terms and conditions apply. Offers or subject Kinch about notice, visit rights dot com slash omnibus. For more information. Well, I guess, Winifred Sackville stone our junior implies the existence they Winifred Sackville Stoner senior. Right. And that in fact is true mother stone was kind of an educational celebrity of the early twentieth century. Where did they live? They lived all over her husband. When junior's father was James Buchanan donor, a US army surgeon Colonel. So they would move around to different postings. If as you follow them around the country in census records, you can see the Winifred Sackville stone or her by graphical details. Do not always line up with the newspaper accounts of her life. For example, her age keeps changing downward every ten years in the in the census. I mean it literally go down. But it does not go up ten years, either so still sell for aging three years between the nineteen ten and nineteen twenty cents, for example, she will claim in newspaper accounts to be the descendant of a landed British subjects named Thomas Sackville, or popular in America, or in one account, even the famous Lord, Lionel Sackville west, who is the, the emissary from the ambassador from the quarter Saint James to Grover. Cleveland's administrator remember him? Well, if that was true, she would in fact have been the aunt of. Vita Sackville west, the famous author and lover of Virginia Woolf. However, none of this is true. She was making it all up. Her name was Pauline, Winifred Stoner. Sorry Pauline, Winifred Sackville. So her daughter was not even a junior. And she had kind of falsified her whole past as she moved from town to town, including nine hundred ten port Townsend, Washington there. We are not far from here, where her husband was in charge of the military hospital as she moved around the country. She and her young daughter got very into a popular move into the time Esperanto. Oh, sure. I mean they sound like eccentric, their educational fattest for sure. And Winifred senior becomes the first head of the women's auxiliary of the Esperanto association of North America. She brings her young baby daughter winner for it to the very first US congress on Esperanto, which is kind of this utopian idea of how much peace. Brotherhood, there will be if we can all speak, this odd, Slavic, inflected language, identify a Russian Zamenhof, we will surely cover as Barranco in the owner of us. So let's not go to deep. It's hard to believe. We haven't considering the Esperanto poster. I have in my downstairs bathroom. Yeah. You do can confirm. In fact, we got a note this week from someone saying, Brenta's probably to obvious omnibus. We should do. Volta took oval book with an lot, which I guess, is a less successful internet, the hipsters, that's Toronto. I should say the Esperanto poster in your bathroom is not some thing that you got it. I ki- but is an actual vintage gathering of Esperanto, speakers in Montevideo. Uruguay. So great. I don't know why it exists, but I'm delighted that I found it for my bathroom, and so while mother Stoner's interested in these educational fads. She starts to put out a monthly pamphlet called mother Stoner's bulletin and a series of books propounding her theories of child rearing with names like natural education. That's kind of her, her school of thought educate sounds like one of those preschools where all the kids are naked, right? Playing with toys only made of natural fibers and unstained woods. We don't believe in children wearing clothes until the fourteen other books called arithmetic through play games with Ames natural education. Apparently by her own account was just focusing your maternal love so intently, on your one child that they could not help become a genius. It's be opposite of Montessori. Yes, you'd never sent Virginia to any kind of public school. In fact, she just poured her maternal love onto her. Yes. She was very angry. When teddy Roosevelt, who had a large boisterous, family would encourage Americans have large boisterous families because she knew the only way to raise up a generation of Esperado speaking geniuses would just be this laser like focus on your one amazing child. We'll also it would represent the death of the zebra. The world. If there were all these Roosevelt families. Think of all the all the animal heads on walls. We will talk about Kermit Roosevelt on the bus to he's on my list lot of lot of foreshadowing in this entry. Yeah, we're gonna get a lot of letters, do Kermit Roosevelt. You can listen to these in any order future. All these episodes were recorded the thousand years ago when she stopped right now. Listen to volume book. Listen to Kermit Roosevelt and come back should we pause while they do that? That's, that's like minstrels. Mother also has two patents which are delightful because you like old timing. Medicaments is for you. Are they are they ninety nine percent alcohol with a little bit of opium? And then she patented a kind of candy wrapper, which then sold to the Newark, parrafin, and parchment paper company is that is that the kind of candy wrapper you can eat to you. Remember those little Japanese candies. Yes, they were just made of rice fiber still a thing. I must be in the seventies. When entertainments I mean before, Nacho cheese, when entertainment was, was limited to, like banging rocks together that kind of candy where you could eat the rapper. Just thrilled us to no end. It turned into a glue mess in your mouth. Yeah. With tara. I feel like my parents levers it as a way to get us to go. Eat Asian foods, something that children in the seventies did not wanna do. That's true. I didn't wanna do it. And but the fact that you eat a candy with the wrapper on what a delight novelty really, really something very deep in kids. I think she I think she also. Patented some kind of skin powder. But anyway, her claim to fame and all these accounts is her amazing daughter Winifred junior, this, the winner for junior, confirmed all of her mother's weird teaching styles because she became a product. Yes. And always self reported by mom, so very difficult to actually pick out Winifred actual accomplishments from her mother's manipulations, because this is all very self serving. She's only gonna quoted in newspapers about the power of natural education. If Wilford is amazing, so Wilfred. Wolford sorry, Winifred, Sherry. I guess if Winifred is amazing, but she she's already been documented as only aging three years, every ten. So she's. Yeah. We know she's a bit of a Charlotte russe. I would take some of this with a grain of salt, but accordion, her mother's account by the age of one Winifred was not just walking and talking, but was reciting Tennyson crossing the bar, maybe you were walking and talking to one, but were you reciting Tennyson wasn't not even charge of the light brigade. Favorite poem? I was walking and talking by one, according to my own doting mother, but was do not have any Posey and was reading Virgil. She, she could read from the in need, and not really. She could recite the needs of the lines would scan. Wow, by the age of two she could read English speak, French. Could be a little awkward. You could only read English only speed for. Yes. She's, she's Canadian. She's like one of those speed limit signs in candidates. It's the opposite. Right. They can all read French, but speak English. A big part of her mom's method was to introduce her to educational choice. She also said that kids should have fun. You know, you should still be going on nature walks. Natural education means just being with your kids so much that everything you do becomes a learning opportunity, generous that kids should have fun, right? She's not she's not a stick in the mud. Does comport with Montessori a little bit? Yes. But, but she would also introduce her things that were clearly not toys, for example, a typewriter in her crib on bright cutouts of all the letters and numbers, and she would hold them up instead of reading he hated nursery. She would always talk about the frothy nursery, rhymes in crooning senseless songs that the culture wanted her to redo the kids, you know, full of bad examples, children jumping over candlesticks and whatnot as leaning over the crib saying ours is not to question. Why ours is but to do in die. Would also just be holding these letters and saying like Di Di Di Di Di dese nut and then she would say dis nuts. And, and putting a typewriter in the by the age of three, she can type. Fred could take dictation. She was on the typewriter. She was composing her first poems, by the age of five her mom was taking her to around to Chautauqua 's that should be an omnibus. My first band was named Chautauqua. Is that really true? It is that is very branch talk. What was my first rock band? There's a good to talk with joke. At the end of the new Coen brothers movie. Ballot posters scripts. And I love to talk with jokes. I should say the my first band was called the truly awful band, but my first band to have any recorded material was Chautauqua. There were also truly awful though. Notre taco was good. Oh, we never era. We, it was grunge rock air. So we were like, strumming Jiang Li indie pop at a time when everybody else Seattle's going, Jim Dunton down to dick, and we didn't see this is what I was waiting. I was waiting for the second wave grunge. And I just didn't know about to talk. We were there just jangling away. So stop right now, listen to John's Chautauqua show. That's right. And then we'll come back. They were. Just kind of traveling seminars. Hang out in upstate New York with the Reverend Mont Montague G for discussion. And he would explain his educational theories of the Roman, it's exactly the type of thing that people always say they want right Chautauqua and that you talk with shows were just what I mean. If, if you polled the omnibus you pull the future link radio listener. Yeah. People would say, oh, yeah, that's exactly what I wanted. And oftentimes, the promise of the internet was supposed to be that TED talks were. It's true. Ted talks Lazar, Ta-talk was, yeah. But people talk was it turned out people don't really want them that much as much as they want, Netflix and chill so Winifred senior, and junior would travel to the dead disappears, from the story, very quickly, by the way, you can only imagine the kind of drinking. Let's involved at home. This guy and his insufferable. Daughter. So they're going around in five year old winner for his teaching Esperanto. At these to talk to the learned men of the time, and she just trained in the temple that she can Klopp her foot and do basic addition or is, she truly is, she tested -ly smart? We don't know how much her mom's manipulating this, but she seems to be a gifted child. I'm sure she's getting pushed in all kinds of drugs by her to talk with stage. Mom, perhaps the only one in America. Right. But she's publishing poetry by six by the age of seven she's playing chess at a high level. That's when her first book comes out the book of jingles to which will return shortly by the age of eight you can speak eight languages, including Japanese, thanks to two zero Japanese border. She has a remarkable knowledge, says the times of history, Latin literature, geography, physiology, and rhetoric you have known someone that could speak multiple languages. I'm guessing. Yeah, I speak a couple everyone in my family. I think speaks a couple images. Mindy does a couple is not several us dabbling this. Okay. So what you're saying, this is not a couple of three I mean a couple too. I mean, Ken couple, John. Gobble what, what would it be press? You hear three six languages can have you ever met someone who could speak six languages? They don't all have to be like, geniuses academic have to be able to read 'cause they wanna read the text in their field, which means they have to piece together, French German Greek Latin Greek Latin, but I feel like speaking, Spanish pretty well. I can kind of peace together written Portuguese on Italian on the fly and sometimes French. Right. So maybe by these low academic associate professor standards, maybe I could claim this, if you can speak Italian, you can speak Romanian as long as you get your yourself Xs, right? You know who always gets asked this every commercial? Break while they will jeopardy stops down someone in the audience wants to know how many languages, Mr. Alex trebek's. How many does he speak? Well, you know, when he reads the clues he's always hyper correcting, he's always like in Giuseppi their today's you throw Tony. But it's all just a parlor trick. He doesn't speak any additional. He studies pronunciations every morning before he reads the clues. He speaks as an Ontario, and he speaks English French flute and says he always answers at the same. He says, I can speak English and French fluently, and I can mess around in several more. Yeah, I say that too. But well that means I can order a beer and get a hotel room. Revivals, skill fourteen language giving directions to cabbies and ask him where the ticket offices, but I have known people that could speak six or more languages. But it's it's German Dutch and Danish are there. But I mean you know, they they get one and then they can get the others and then it's French Spanish Italian. They've learned the adjacency. Yeah. Right. And then if they can speak if they can I mean, Slavic language would be hard to do. But if you could learn us lava clang as you could probably pick up five watts Bronco solve all this John or volume poke to a lesser degree. At the age of eight. She also, by the way, publishes her first Esperanto book, Patry, no on Sereno which as I'm sure, you know, as in front of speakers. Brenda for mother goose. It's the first ever translate into the mother, which her mother so hated, bright nursery rhymes? I think once they're Esperanto. See her mom hated rhymes, but she knew that he was always exposing Winifred junior to poetry, and she feels that was a big part of her success that she just had the rhythms in her the cadences in her head. Right. So the point is to make the poetry uplifting and fortifying so that instead of hearing about a kids, Tom the piper stunned stealing pig. What if we had poems that could teach us good things, we'll all of the nursery rhymes are all encoded stories of like the English revolution. Right. And that should be an omnibus entry to boy future links. You've got a lot of work. I think a lot of that is revisions, but I think I want to entry where I push back on all this twentieth century assumption that ring around the Rosie is about the on the play. I actually think a lot of that is not true. Do who do you think wrote Shakespeare's plays? I think it was not sixty. But someone else of the same name. Name. Did you have that line already? Dad, always says that I don't even know where he gets great. So this donors loved the rhymes as John RIA. They just thought it was a wasted opportunity to use rhymes to teach kids together, Winifred mother and daughter would compose her book of jingles is just a series of edifying poems, where instead of learning about a piper son, who steal pigs. It's like what if this poem was about the life of Yohannes Brahms, or about the human skeletal system, or learning the French alphabet? Oh, I have to say that they sound like terrible cocktail party guests. Yeah, absolutely. All educational fads to this time, you would want to avoid them at all costs. But I'm looking through the table of contents of her of a winner for nineteen fifteen Winifred stone or junior collection facts in jingles. She's pictured with her trained bird key Koos on the Japanese cropping up and. You know, it really is. It's, it's biographies of Hector Berlioz. And it's about the armadillos skin. How mother learned natural history. One day will sitting on the beach talking of child training with the most learned pedagogue from whose lips were raining. Great torrents of most wondrous Lor. Among upon most subjects known. My mother learned one, little fact, this wise, man did not own. So it was Winifred really writing the stuff is her mom, putting it in her mouth. How, how did these two not started religion? This was also the time when, when kooks like this would have decided that they had some divine understanding, they're just a little too. Maybe fifty years earlier, this would have become the fear Adventists or, or Mormonism, or whatever. But instead in the nineteen twenties in this new age of Ford, thinking, officiency, and our new future built on science, what you do is you come up with an educational theory ride. I see. Hey, I'm Andy, if you don't know me, it's probably because I'm not famous, but I did start a men's grooming company called Harry's. The idea for Harry's came out of a frustrating experience. I had buying razor blades. Most brands were overpriced over designed and out of touch at Harry's. Our approach is simple. Here's our secret, we make sharp durable blades and sell them at honest prices for as low as two dollars each. We care about quality so much that we do some crazy things like a world class German blade factory obsessing over every detail means we're confident and offering a hundred percent quality guarantee. Millions of guys have already made this, which to Harry's, so thank you. If you're one of them, and if you're not, we hope you give us a try with this special offer, get a Harry starter set with a five blade razor waited handle shave gel, and a travel cover all for just three bucks. Plus free shipping. Just go to harrys dot com and enter four four four four at checkout. That's harrys dot com code four four. Four four. Enjoy. While we're looking at facts in jingles, it contains the only work for which we know Winifred Sackville Stoner today, which is a series of couplets designed to help kids remember events in American history. This is it, this is her office, which accomplish their company composed at the age of seven or eight, but she didn't do this, where anybody could be certain that it wasn't her mother. Right. And I'm guessing quite a bit of the work is hers. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But clearly because her mom has turned her into this kind of weirdo, this book about American history begins in fourteen hundred ninety two Columbus sailed the ocean blue. I know this work. She's the first person to coin that little couple of school, still no today, but it goes on and found this land of the free beloved by you beloved by me. The salsa believable is the poetry of nine year old who has been listening to Joe in Tennyson since the cradle. Right where she can kind of mimic, the cadences of it, but it still sow. Sounds childlike. Yeah. And it goes on. So there's ver- couplets about Henry Hudson William Penn. Paul revere, and all with their dates in eighteen hundred sixty three each slave was told that he was free by Lincoln with whom few compare and being kind of Justin fair. So awful awful doggerel, but designed for a pedagogical purpose. Aha, her hundreds of other poems are sadly, forgotten today, but it wasn't supported by nine she was a classical pianist skilled painter. She had written three more books by the age of nine including her memoir. Which is called nine years of life. Years of life. But the thing is, she did have an amusing a really one of a kind childhood, her mother realized this was a path to fame in, in the new century and kind of wanted to be the face of the child prodigy industry. So it wasn't just going to talk with Hewitt. She actually started the organization called the league for fostering genius where she would go around Europe and the eastern seaboard collecting, the brightest kids, she could find, and this is the weird like anything after the end is going to be weird, like what is this gonna do? Inter breed them. Yeah. It's gotta be jenex, right? In this case, she wants to connect them with rich patrons, who might bankroll their future feet all can. How did we miss out on this? We could have been why didn't our mothers Horace out. I've been looking for a rich patron my whole life, and I'm sure the world is full of rich old men looking for eight-year-old brighter year old boy. Mike calling for one thing or another. So this is all part of this school that we still there's still a portion of the people in the world. Who think that we're all geniuses? We just weren't showered with a mother's love, or we didn't we weren't given the freedom to be our natural brilliant, sell referred is kind of an argument for that her mom had a had an idea she had theory and went for it twenty four seven and turned out a little Winfred senior. Maybe it's true. Like, maybe we are just seeing that the potential of each human is so great. But as a parent becoming apparent instantly changes that for you. Because, you know, if you have two kids, they're just different out of the boxer. And you realize that the thing that worked with him would not have worked with her and vice versa. And they have different. I will always say that my kids are both so smart. I love them equally. Yes, the deal but they're smart and totally different ways like my daughter has the creative project. She's always working on. And my son is very much. Do the assignment up the assignment, maybe while the teacher with a nice turn of phrase, you know, he can he can do it. I did kind of sound like you knows what he's talking about. Both of your kids are excellent at rolling their eyes at you. However, they still have you seen that I have, and they do it very differently. They roll their eyes in different directions. This one clockwise one counterclockwise, actually did have to children and one of them I experimented on by depriving them of healthy food, you never taught English to see if they would start to learn the tongue of eve left in dark silent route one of them could speak French, but reading, and then eventually, I realized I had failed in that experiment, and I sold him off to the navy, but Winifred, sexist or senior thought this was her mission in life. He essentially created a superhero team for child. Prodigies the league for fostering genius, and told the New York Times, Shirley, there's no better way in which to spend one's millions than for America's new tycoon class right to support these little lowering money on Lil geniuses. But, you know, I guess maybe she would bridal at the idea that anyone can do it. Because in, Brazil bristle at the she bristle and bridles early. How do you bridal at an ideal, you is this like flaunt and flout where people are always switching them incorrectly? Think do bridal at an idea. I don't know. Let's say she would Bryson Bryson's because she wants to believe that her daughter is special, right? Of course, this isn't just a thing, where any old kid who continues to breastfeed until she's eleven can be a genius. This was a vote for child prodigies at the time in America. I assume you know, going hand in hand with the new century and the optimism of the roaring twenties. Was our new sciences and officiant, sees will give us an amazing edge that will make this country even greater has there ever been a case, the. I mean, you would know this maybe better than anyone where a seven year old who wrote books in Esperanto, actually grew up to do anything as a grown, I met, I'm the only one here the one and I wouldn't I don't count blue ribbon at the fair. You know, Michael Kupperman, the cartoonist of snaking bacon. No, I don't know any of those words. One of America's few funny, kind of all cartoonist. I bet you've seen internet cartoonist. No. He's in newspapers. Yeah. Make and bacon. Tales design to three to one of the only guys who's actually funny to me, his dad. He just wrote a memoir this year, kind of his first serious work of his dad Joel Kupperman, who was one of the forties quiz, kids. There are so so many pictures of literal snakes with. Bacon, photographs of snakes eating bacon. Yeah. There's even a picture of a snail. That is a piece of income works. Naked bacon are cops snake always says, no matter what happens. You know, the chief will be like, we got a case for you. Stake will say and bacon will say, I'm crispy when fried and una chief will be like we got another body snake will say bacon will say, try me on a sandwich with lettuce and tomato. I have seen this work, and I do like it. His dad, you'll cover was one of the forties quiz, kids. So a child prodigy, and he, he just wrote a memoir about how that kind of brush with early fame, and being told you're a special little genius flower did not serve his dad, while his dad essentially became a recluse for the last fifty years of his life, just kind of teaching anonymity in Connecticut kind of deeply broken by but this was his. And also sneaking bacon is although considerable accomplishments, not assault. Fact, this is a no. This is a counter example of the of the young prodigy, although one of the quiz, kids kid named Harv actually be produced, the first, like, four the first five Star Trek movies. Oh, including the good one with the whales. Again, a medium accomplishment. It's true. In the nineteen thirties and forties. There were lots of media stories written catching up with these kids from the, the league of fostering Gina's, this prodigy, boom of the twenty because people could not get enough of reading about these kids who could read hieroglyphics in diapers and all these stories would find them kind of working in shabby offices, having sad live furring not too. And sadly, also, the case of with. Winifred. Sackville stoner. Are about to tell us that in the future Columbus was no longer worthy of a poem. And people felt like this was a crime against humanity. That's pretty good. How many of us, right? One couplet that every school child. There was the schoolhouse rock of the shirt of the nineteen twenty you remember when Columba sail the ocean blue or if you know the date what color the ocean was that what happened in fourteen ninety two. By the age of eighteen she's quoted in the New York Times as saying having been a ruinously classes genius. I'm always deeply in sympathy with young people who are dragged into publicity because they have accomplished a few things that so called normal children, have not how she hates her mother is already chafing. She hates her so much much. There is nothing more terrible for any shell than to be put up as an example of Perkasa and to be expected to shine and all things on all times. No so-called genius, or prodigy can speak more feelingly on this subject than I so true. Look how she wants to bring down her mom's whole tower of educational theory. Destroy your mother in order to survive. This is like the opposite of goodwill hunting. Just sneaking into MIT and drawing on the blackboard. A in nineteen twenty one when I buy my math, she's nineteen. But which the newspaper say she's sixteen or twenty four right? Is she says she doesn't hear this from her? Mom, isn't that true, though, that the moms who who bristle bridal Bryce, almost at their moms the daughters who who Bryce, most of the rooms have turned into them? Sure, lacquered hair. She has run away with count Philippe Clinton debris. A French nobleman composer, and poet, junior, a mere thirteen days after meeting. And so what she's thinking like this piss off when Aford senior, although I mean to marry a count. Well, that's there in lies, not really account a year later. She finds out from friends that he's actually Charles Philip, Christian Brucke also, great name a great name, but a penniless German with a long criminal record for con artistry and wiretapping who's one of these guys have been going around pretending to be French royalty, and is, in fact. Just bilking young heiresses out of their money. When I wonder about my potential that my squandered potential. I often think some of my squandered potential, maybe I should have been like bilko artist. You think you would be good at bunko? I'm sorry. Bunko artist bilko was a sergeant on a on a Bill card. You have a very good Phil silvers impression even trying to trot out bunko artists. Yeah. I think you could do it. I mean anybody who's a fluid raconteur and, or podcast or can can we man odd claims about themselves at parties? Right. You kind of a bunko artist. Wait a minute. No, I'm not all my stories are one hundred ten percent. So you can read a lot of her later life, not just rebelling against not just kind of having been broken by being in the spotlight. But really wanting to stick it to mom. There's a series of bad marriages. So at when she finds out that count Philippe Clinton, debris is not the counter purse at all. She's going to confront him and just that same month. She hears from a friend that he's died in a car accident in Mexico City. They weren't living together, apparently not off having adventures with new heiresses. So she in nineteen twenty five she marries, the nice man Louis Hyman, but divorces him two years later and everything she does makes the papers she's now in a bad situation. So when Louis Hyman tells reporter that he could not put up with her anymore, and she couldn't even make a good Cup of coffee think, how that goes over. You know, you can imagine the editor cartoon kid who could speak, Esperanto and ice, Landik, Koetting, or cannot make a decent Cup of coffee. George Bush senior doesn't. How much a loaf of bread is exactly. Maybe that's it being a bit of a child of privilege with this eccentric childhood that were certain life skills that escaped her after her marriage to Louis Hyman fails, she becomes engaged to the paper say to Bainbridge Colby, I think who is in Woodrow Wilson's cabinet, but during this engagement to mister Colby, she is suddenly summoned from her central park west apartment to a swanky, New York hotel, only to find that count debris is in the lobby alive. What and knows that she's a bigamist and is now engaged to a former cabinet member in seeking to capitalize on the situation foil alert, anything she won't go to the papers, but he has reckoned wrongly with our publicity crazy mom, shaming, one of her junior who immediately goes to the papers to announce her first husband's perfidy and to file for an annulment to try to get rid of this guy. She makes a pretty good little, like chubby cheeked flapper. You're looking at a picture, look and she's got the like. Red lipstick kind of done and into a little pucker. Like I surely temple kind of and a little Bob. Her last appearance in the papers as life gets increasingly sorted in nineteen thirty seven she goes to the DA to complain about another Bo who is apparently stolen seven thousand dollars in jewelry. She's easy to talk into stuff, this Winifred wall. She's they're making her complaint to detectives show up with an arrest warrant for her petty larceny and bail jumping for running out on our hotel bills. It's naked bacon. And the other one says crumble me over a salad. So it does not appear to be a good trajectory for young Winifred. He ends. I think she marries four times. I don't know if we're counting the big, Mr. not, and for the last thirty years, she lives until nineteen Eighty-three. Wow. But for the last fifty years of her life, she's essentially a recluse, not unlike Michael compliments, dad, speaking Barranco is land to herself. She's got back at mom. She has nothing left to prove maybe she's inherited a little money and she stays out of the public eye. But, you know, this is always the risk. When you tell us, Mark kid. They're a smart kid, and you make the you kind of make that their identity in light of this. I'd say you did pretty darn well. And that concludes Winifred Sackville Stoner junior entry one two two nine dot Mt. One one two five certificate number three, five, five, five one in the us. Fusion wings in the unlikely event that social media's still exists in your area. It almost certainly will be full of genius cows and chickens. Esperanza STS, fluent, Esperanto, all at some point, we're gonna have to put this in this Brown before you put the golden records into the Ryan capsule spoil bar. It'll be the only way that people will be. We wanna make sure that people have all cultures can understand this record when they find it. I heard that. And I thought it was you making snake and bacon sounds, but it was actually your diet. Dr pepper. Try me with cheese in an omelette that was me opening soda. My brother, does the signature move where he'll, he'll wait for a noisy part of the movie, and then he'll go. With the soda he snuck in dear brother. What a wag he's going to listen to the show. So someday, you'll hear that. But he, he wants to binge every episode of my brother my brother and me first. Oh. Well, that will only take him forty years. That's the problem. I said, you'll never get to my set. You can't. Four hundred something episodes, lot of podcasts. You can find us at omnibus project. You can find Kim at Ken Jennings. You can find me at John Roderick. You can find Winifred donor at win inference donor junior all squandering early potential. You can go to Instagram and find me at John Rodrick. You cannot find kennel though. He's there lurking. Creeping creeping on teens. We've talked about we've talked about what the what the line of being a man of our age. What constitutes creeping almost one hundred percent of online behavior everything. Or do our is now. Creeping, no matter what we're trying to do. Both reply guys. Online look up. See what we're what we're saying to the ladies today, just on Amazon trying to get some paper towels and it's it's creepy for summaries. You can Email us at the project at gmaiLcom with all of your great ideas for shows. You can go to Facebook and hang out with the future llings who are fund most of the time. And they seem like little prodigies themselves. A lot of them are a lot of smart. Like the correct us when we get stuff wrong, they have you have you heard of this, and I never have extremely irritated by my various pronunciations that cannot square the fact that on the one hand, we are compiling all human knowledge on the other hand, we cannot seem to master even the simplest facts that we don't know what the word couple means at bridal or bristle or southern accent. Sounds like foghorn Leghorn Paul's them, all this terrible Millis things that you think would be of interest to us at PO box, five five seven four four shoreline. Washington nine eight one five five listeners, we are sure you are very smart. I guess you're not supposed to say that. That's what they say. Now, by the way, tell them, there's Mark, tell them they did a good job Helen. They did great listeners you are doing great job. You have grit and determination, and perseverance you were living in a wasted. Lifeless earth. And you still listening to fogcast some of John you have too. I do you know our podcast is hard to listen to and you're doing job. You have somehow made it to the end of one from our vantage point here in your distant past. We have no idea how long are enterprise will survive, because we don't know how long our civilization will survive. We hope and pray heaven for the cataclysm will be held up. May never come. But the voice come soon, this recording. Like everyone of recordings maybe are fun. But if providence allows we hope to be back with you, Esperanto, speaker, soon for another entry in the on the. For more podcasts from iheartradio. Visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, it's Kim, Dasho, Beatle fans. Don't miss my podcast. Dash beatles. Revolution talking with other musicians. Like Lenny Kravitz, little Steven about how the Fab Four changed music forever. Listen subscribe at apple podcast or on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to podcasts piece of low.

Winifred Winifred Sackville Stoner Seattle America Laurie Basler Winifred Sackville Bertha Ken Jennings principal Iowa John Dominica Bacon Winifred Sackville stone New York Times Dani Shapiro Madani Ellen blue apple New York
# 451 - Maz Jobrani & ME

Bertcast's Podcast

1:55:04 hr | 2 months ago

# 451 - Maz Jobrani & ME

"Hey guys brand new podcast. Listen if you enjoyed the super bowl with me. Tom gura and warren sapp live streaming. Thank you and if you haven't seen it yet you can go to livestream dot. Why am eight studios dot com to enjoy it. I got nothing else to promote new bill. Burr comes out this weekend. New to bears is out right now and i apologize that this is late. It has been chaos in the chrysler household. We are starting allston. I should tell you. We are starting in person. Podcasts fucking saturday saturday. Were doing a first in person. Podcast doing and outside socially and guess what the fuck i got halston. I got a tester so we can do them. As soon as a furniture comes inside will socially distant but we can test. Now i lots to talk to you about buddy. We got all the equipment. We got everything. I cannot fucking. We've got a few of these zooms coming up. And i've a big project i'm working on. We will be having zooms from time to time. I apologize but i want you to know live. Podcasts are coming back. And they're coming back fucking strong. That's all i gotta tell you. Today's podcast is a banger. Oh wait. I should thank our sponsor the peacock. Whatever you're funny. Peacock scouted exclusively streaming tons of comedy hits from iconic sitcoms to brand new originals. Like my friend monster brawny. Who's on the podcast. Today has a brand new special streaming right now on a peacock and it's called pandemic warrior. He is a fantastic comic. But more importantly when it comes to peacock bears beats the office. They have the office. That's all you have to tell me. They have the office. I will sit and watch all two hundred one episodes of the office right now. Positive bonus extras and exclusive than if you're not new to if you're new the show trust me you're gonna find something you love you give you looking for more classics. You can stream every episode of an men plus every season of snl. Something new check out. Peacocks regional comedies like the amber ruffin show ap bio which. I'm pretty sure is patent oswal. Show and say by the bell with certified fresh by rotten tomatoes. Don't miss all these his plus so much. More like maggio brownies. New special pandemic warrior get started for free at peacock dot com and start streaming today. Let's get to the podcast. I'm trying to make these shorter. So the podcast lands right in your lap. Today's guest is mazda. Ronnie maharani iranian american comedian. That is important. Because i'm obsessed with revolutions right now a must do a great podcast called revolution revolutions with dunk neighbor like ten seasons. It's fucking amazing. But one of the things. I never really understood. Really wrap my head. Around was the iranian revolution in iran. Show took over mazdas. Jat dad was directed. His family was directly affected by that. And we talk about that. We talked about that. We talk about politics. Now if one of those people to get tossed. Because you're talking politics doesn't line up with yours. Then i don't tell you because we have a great honest open conversation about the fact that the majority of not the majority of it in large group of muslim men are big trump supporters. And mas is not more importantly in than all this. We have a great conversation. I really hope you enjoy it. And i hope you check out. Mazas special pandemic warrior streaming right now on peacock. He's a great dude. He's a fantastic meeting. He's an amazing actor but he's a better podcast guest ladies and gentlemen without further ado with his new special streaming right now on picot called pandemic warrior. My friend mazda. O'brien must balmy. Mas buddy man. Doing doing well man. I'm doing well you hanging in there. I'm fucking losing my mind to be honest with you. Tell me about it faulk. It wasn't wasn't bad when When it started. And then i was. I was okay. You know. we went on tour a couple of times. So i was okay. In between tours. Missile chunk has gotten to me. You know it's been crazy. Like paul go up and down in a given day like i just. I'm sick of washing dishes dude. How many god damned dishes got a ten year old and a twelve year old nitrile. I tried to get them involved in the washing. But it's like okay. They're in the middle class. Come down put it in the different cups and spoons. And i told my wife i go. We should just label. Everyone gets one item for the day and they got to get through the day with it. I think it's not going to happen in college. I did that in college We got us all one plate. One four one nice and then we painted our names on them so that you each had a color but we just ended up using the other person's shit it doesn't it. It's exactly in theory. It sounds good but you need to be surrounded by a bunch of law abiding nobody. I'm just every time i'm like. How do we get so many goddamn dishes and then the laundry and then anyway. That's the part of stuff that i've done with him. The comedy stuff around standing you've been doing but between zoom and driving and that stuff is not nearly as much as i'm used to your one i do it. It's like i felt good when i do more often. You know. I haven't been let me turn the volume controls. I haven't been I toured pretty aggressively at the very beginning of the pandemic did I did four tours. That were pretty that were pretty ex- pretty like legit meaning twenty two days in a row shows every night and We did drive in movie theaters and so so that was fun. And then you know an and it got but it was taxing because there was a certain point where you are. You're tugging on the tiger's tail on whether or not you're going to get the virus because you're driving around the country you're hitting the hot spots now granted i. I didn't realize at the time but we were probably safer than anyone. Because we were in our own bubble like we were all on a tour bus. We were never leaving the tour bus. We were never. We've never around anybody right. I mean ever. And so in hindsight. And i wish i'd had this insight during the towards would panic attacks thinking because you know this sounds silly but like our lives in comics Trash me because i was because i decided to do something different. You you forget. I know fucking go. You know that you know this probably more acute than anyone is the second you put your business brain on and you go hold on. I got an idea i wanna. I think i can do this. I think i knew that. Let me let me see. If i can the system's not working with me right now i want to shift. I can make my own way. And i think there's a respect for that if it does moderate. Or if it fails people go amana love that always trying but when you succeed you get some real dirtbags ago. Dude fuck the axis of evil tour. Let me tell you something those fucking like and you know that as i do in then all of a sudden people you're friends with like shitting on you or you're not friends with site guy you see store be bumped into and you say hi to. You don't really know and then all of a sudden the kind kinda like shitting on you and you're like oh because i tried to think out of the box and twenty twenty. It's been crazy regardless because of all the stuff that happened. And i don't know about you but i grew up watching the godfather films and yes frago is disloyal loyalty and i learned like no matter. What my friends do in the comedy world like be there for them and you know even if i have a beef with somebody if i disagree with something. I'll do it personally i. I don't know these people that get out there and they're like vocal about about bert. What am i. they know what. Wait till the next time. I see. burt. And i might say burt. You know i'll be honest with you. Made me feel uncomfortable when you were doing that. Shit but this thing you're right. It's been a crazy but and by the way good for you for this an i did. I did one traveling show. I went to arizona. Did the tempe improv indoors. I'll be honest with you. I was hesitant going. It was towards the end of last year. At first i was like man. This thing is getting worse. And worse. Too i go. i know. it's limited capacity. All of the above but party also was like okay. They've been doing it so you look at other people doing it. We're going to be doing it. And secondly i said i want to be able to say at least i tried it during this pandemic. Yeah and and how i felt in the truth is i went there and i felt uncomfortable the true because indoors. Those do only never looked at you guys as like infected before like just back the fuck up dude and you sit there and what's funny first of all there's two things first of all. it's comedians. our whole lives have been taught to be like promote promote promote. Fill the room fielder over time ever. I was like no. I don't want anybody knowing i'm here. I just want my guarantee. Get home to five cents up doing this. I talked to. I talked to. I won't say names. I won't say names by talked to comic. And he's a new york comic l just a little bit younger than us. And i called him. He's i called and i was like. Hey how's How's tampa and he goes. Who fucking told you know went. What elizabeth told you. I don't want anyone to know he goes. 'cause i think we get la comics and not being you almost immune. You is definitely not me and you but there are county. La comics all the sudden go. It's a little social justice. Either like so. You're doing stand up in independent pandemic really. Are they wearing masks. Are they socio. They all sudden came in. Everyone's going to have to run their own race. Look florida is. I mean i saw i see videos of people in florida. Just going out to dinner and thirty nine. Th they're like licking they're looking ship. It's crazy. I don't know what the hell's wrong people own on my buddy grandma buddy post fairly aggressively about trump on On instagram like to the point where. I texted him yesterday. I was like him. And you fall off the wagon like the rehab like no dude these fucking lib cards and i'm like okay. I love you. Brother caltex you. When this is over. I'll talk to you later but i lost. I lost friends because he this. Here's the thing is the perfect storm of. I was thinking about this. I thought about this a lot. Because the fact is for four years. It's like we were bombarded with trump's shift for four years whether you want it or not today burke you might wake up to and be like today i'm going to become a yoga You know guru. And i'm just going to meditate. I'm just gonna. I'm going to the mountaintop. And just relax and some dude with show up with like a maga- hat or a tweet or so we it was four years of bombardment. And and i'll tell you it's the craziest thing because like you said with your friend be fall off the wagon. I have intelligent. Intelligent friends who started in two thousand sixteen like not being trump fans realizing trump is this like a clown who is a reality show host. Who's always been the butt of a joke. I was thinking about. I used to do silly noxious trump jokes about his hair. That was it and people in the chuckle haha. Soon as he started saying racist shit at people like hussein. What's on my monitor. They got so passionate about it. And i've lost friends because it's a combination trump and then queuing on comes in and goes. Oh there's a deep state and the lip tards and the socialist and so then all of a sudden people go live free or die motherfucker and you're like dude. Just relax my buddy and this. We don't know this guy like whether it's trump or biden or obama. I don't care as make fun of the guy let's move on with our lives. Yes it's crazy i have. I have a weird. I have a weird stance about like a growing up in florida. All my all my friends are trump supporters. Not all of them but the majority of moral trump's borders and talked to them. I love them. I have no. I have obviously i mean. I don't really talk about my politics but i mean it's pretty clear i voted for And But i i don't talk about politics at all and so and it was the same way i used to wanna ready joke about this. It was the same way about like. I used to try to figure out like anyone who talked about any issue aggressively and just wouldn't let it down. I used to get turned off from like if you were guys like uber. Fucking chick's tonight were paying checks. Fucking push him. I'd be like all right. That's enough for me on the same flight. On the flipside of you're gay alma. I'm sucking cock sucking. It'd be like all right. That's enough for me like i was. I'm just a middle of the road kinda dude and so like for example I wanted to talk to you about this. A little bit But i know like anyone. breaking the law like when they were looting The stores in in california during the black lives matters not by looting but whoever was looting during that. I didn't like the idea that i am going to be very candid. I didn't like the protests during the pandemic personally. I just thought that's very responsible. That was kind of like kind of like what the comedians are saying about. You don't go. Don't go touring like broadcasting. These guys going shit. You're shit on me for doing oklahoma city. These are fucking protesting so and but on next exact same page. Those guys have stormed the fucking capital. I have just as much distaste for that behavior. As i do for looting footlocker that that i find that i i. I think i'm more. I'm more astonished by the storm capital. Like i'm i'm a. I'm like 'cause you've heard of insurrections you've heard of and i want to talk to you about that because because i'm obsessed right now with revolutions and I'm going through a big phase. Where i'm like says gray podcasts. By mike dunkin it's all about revolutions and so and so you were an actual part. I mean you you know. You're lucky in that. You kinda were in new york during during the fall of iran. But like i was wondering like how you felt about watching that and if that hit any old kind of emotions absolutely all of the above first of all i agree with you a hundred because listen i got. I have iranian friends. Who loved trump. I mean it's the craziest thing. Yeah right colored doesn't matter in this matter and what i say is a little. It's a little different than the way you put it. But what i say look. Let's just not lose ourselves in the cult of personality of anybody. Like i personally big fan of obama but if you come to me and go hey under. Brahma was more drone attacks than any president before an innocent people died in pakistan. I'd be like oh shit. That's a bad thing y- my my conservative friends now because i ended up on this crazy. What's app chat throughout the whole. The whole pandemic in the black lives matter into the elections. And these guys were so all of a sudden more like right. Then i thought on the right side and i'm very like on the left side but one of the things that was crazy was just the feeling like like we've lost you like when i when i talk about trump. I'm not making funnier grandmother. America's we should be able to make fun of our leaders and that's a big thing to keep in mind now. When when this whole black lives matter thing happened i actually went out to the protests and protested. I was there day one with my kids and my wife. Because i was like our kids need to learn. Let let me let me backtrack for a second. Trump goes into the office. Early twenty seventeen puts in the muslim ban. One of the country's number one number one rumour want one if they go to the airport the day that was annot travel ban. But i was at the airport the day. They stopped letting muslims of the country was that it was i walked. I came out of american airlines drunk and they were like protesting down arrivals and i was there. I was one of the. I protested that we i don't know if it was the same day you were there but i went down to protest because as iranian american. I was like look this. This thing is being sold to the american people. Keeping america safe for however none of the countries that are on this band have ever committed an act of terror in america and furthermore the people that are coming from these countries are vetted and a lot of them are like for example. Iran has a very oppressive government in. I'll get to the revolution in a second. But when that revolution happened this islam it republic came in their very oppressive. So now you've got a lot of young people in iran who go to university there. They kick ass and for the longest time there were coming to america to study and a lot of them would stay here and go work in silicon valley or whatever but at least he's guys had hoped that can get out of this hell and go there once. The muslim ban happens. These guys can't come muslim. The muslim ban happens Relatives of people. That are here. Can't come harder for them to come a lot of people. I heard a lot of stories of things that to me was injustice. So i went down. I protested and it was interesting because like that night of the next night. I'm listening to the radio. I thought america because there was protests. All over the country at airports. I was like okay americans at least understand that. This muslim ban is hypocritical. And it's really just it's it's all smoke and mirrors et cetera et cetera. However the radio goes a majority of americans support the muslim ban. And that's when had a lightbulb moment. I go wait a minute. I thought americans understood the plight that i'm seeing right now of people from my background and i realized i go the same way when like black lives. Matter protests were happening under obama. I always thought oh black. people got it. they're protesting. they'll take care of it. And that's when. I realized the next time there's a group that's being oppressed for whatever reason if i can go protest. I'm going to go protest so that was set in my mind so soon black lives matter happened. Went our family. Everybody were protesting peaceful. Really fucking interesting. And your children are multicultural indian and iranian right. Yes so my wife's indian. My i'm iranian but we both my wife been in america since she was six months old. I'm here since. I was six years old but i felt it was important for them to see this. And i'll tell you this interrupt for one second. Because i've said this before and i i'm trying to question or not if what i'm saying is accurate but like it's funny. It's funny when i. When i hear you talk about going down to protest for the sometimes i forget you know people say i don't see color sometimes i i definitely see color and know that you're not supposed to don't see color but like i don't think of i think and i know you came here when you were like eight but i think of you more american than i do iranian like i just think he was an american guy like like i understand. You're you're running your cultures there and you're probably more comfortable With with with that kind of food or whatever like that culture. But like i just see as of the one i understand. She's asian but like i'm not blind by don't see you more as an american dude then i do in ronnie and dude absolutely listen. I obviously hold onto the culture whether it's the food or some of the traditions party nursing day. I'm irish but absolutely no absolutely too. If you ask me like yeah. Of course like when i first america was dallas cowboys. Fan oakland as fan. I could tell you about baseball. Listen music wise. I listened to american music comedy. Wise american communist alcohol. There's audible so absolutely right about that. But what what happened with this thing. Wasn't we live in a multicultural society. And the fact is that they're people had a breaking point and again i'll go back to it like for example the the women's marches and stuff that were happening. The the you know the women's march happened in protests at trump. That was another. I was like you know in your mind. You go okay. Women got it. They got they got but then you know they got it. It's not until somebody pointed out like with with apartheid. It wasn't until the people in power started to put a hand down and go all right. We're going to help get rid of apartheid till apartheid went away similarly. It's going to take all of us. When we see injustice you've got to step up and show up and i felt like when i saw the thing with with a george floyd and just and i started hearing stories all of a sudden i started listening because one of the problems was taber going back to that. What's app chat that. I was on with my friends. Who against some of hardcore iranian but like conservative. There well off few more like well. You know the black people gotta pull themselves up by the bootstraps. You kidding me i go. You came here. You live in brentwood in a gated community. And i go. Us have any black friends and even talk to anybody. Who's black because i know for example there was. I don't know what the comedians name was younger guy he posted about like. He's like when i've seeing this. It's i'm having a flashback to things that have happened to me. And he told the story of one time he had a meeting with with Keenen ivory wayans and he was excited. He's going to go pitch some show and he goes on the way there. I get pulled over by the cops and the next thing. I know my head is on the ground in the oil etc etc. That's experience i've ever had but i go. We need to open our eyes experiences. That people from other backgrounds and cultures might have had and it's funny because when i said that my one friend. Who's in brentwood. You know what there is a black guy. I played tennis with. And he says once why it comes to brentwood. He gets pulled over. That's right motherfucker. What do you expect. It's still so anyway just real quickly. What i was saying was i went down to the protests. Going back to the guys who looted so. It's funny because i was there with the kids and it was all positive. It was right here. Down on fairfax third and it's interesting. Because at a certain point we got we got hungry. I'm like telling my let's get some food so we went to get food. And that's what her phone started blowing up. You're were like. Are you guys like what's happening. There's riots happening in the fire so i am one hundred percent with you. When first of all the looters who loot and go into the stores and shit they're just people taking advantage of a situation right now. They're not they're not there for the for the message. They're there for. they're either just kids. I don't mean to be. I don't mean to be dismissive of it. But i was a kid also and i've made a lot of mistakes that i would never want to come up and delight these days and And i think they're just kids or poor people. Listen to. my house is broken into two days ago. i don't blame. I feel actually bad for those people who their million dollar idea was to break into my house. That was their their fucking get outta there. They're like shit's not going well. You know what though burke crisis got a ton of pictures of himself. And so i feel bad. I know that's probably. I appreciate you for that. My grandfather used to say that all the time he used to say. I never judge anybody who was the guy who steals stealing. Because he's hungry your ass. His solution like you said so similarly these guys who looted absolutely wrong and but at the same time like you said you. And i aren't gonna be like you know what i i do need a tv. So let me go down and loot. I'm very lake in so that i can. You can sit in a room with a piece of paper and a pen and go. I want to tv and then figure out how to get a tv. And i feel bad for exactly so those. Those guys were wrong and anybody. Who did anything violent was wrong. All that stuff. I totally convinced. However i will go back because again when when the cap. The russia capitol hill happen at the capital. That was again one of my friends. Conservative friends was like this is wrong and if we do this then we are just like antifreeze and i was like no. No no. No no stop stop. These dudes are literally trying to overthrow a government. And if you don't believe me you need to go to the chat rooms. I had on my podcast. This guy named frank fig luciano if you know frankly lucy but he's always on msnbc and he was just on bill maher. He's crazy have money he taught. He's a He was a assistant director of the counterterrorism counterterrorism at the fbi. And when i had him on in the fall before this this this whole attack happened one of the things he pointed out he said look he goes. I'm a retired Fbi guy and he goes. Because i'm retired and anyone else who's in my community because we don't have to play by the same rules that current fbi supply so like current fbi wants to spy on. Somebody gotta get the right. You know we you know approval and this and that and get into chat. Rooms he goes. We can go to the showroom to see what's going on and he goes. I'll tell you what's going on is there is a group of people who are on the far right who think this is their day and their common and they want to overthrow the government and their weaponized etcetera etcetera etcetera. So when we say you know. Comparing the looters of of of of the nike store with the guys who stormed the capital guys at nike store are just doing stupid shit and it should be caught and arrested and pay whatever they gotta pay for for doing that. These funds were trying to overthrow government legit trying to overthrow the government. They were legit if they had got burnt. If they you tell me if they had gotten their hands on nancy pelosi wouldn't have killed killer. They would have killed her. and i don't think they would have meant to kill or maybe they would have meant killer. But i think what would happen is the same shit with washington. Guy get crushed. It's mob mentality and you you gotta understand. You know what i think. A lot of people who don't maybe won't own up to is their ability to participate in mob mentality. It used to have a bit that i was working on that. We're all karen's. I don't ever think you're not a karen black white mexican. Were all fucking. Karen's sometime when injustice happens to us small as it may be I remember i call the cops on a moving truck. I don't even know. The dudes were. But i had ice cream. Ice cream. chocolate is moving truck was blocking me. Am i gonna melting. And there's a for whatever reason that called urgency hilarious. I was using a bug a. Move the guys. Like lowe's salk my dick do say there is a sincere power in not giving a fuck when you don't give a fuck that is when you when you when you go head to head with someone that really doesn't give a fuck. You have never felt more helpless in your life. I was like msn move talking now. And he's like why don't you get out and suck my dick and now they're laughing at me. I go call the cops. Call the fucking cops on now. I'll call by the way this ten years ago. I was like i'll call up before. Mazdas is such a true story. This is before your cell phone will let you dial nine. One one had your cell phone. You dial nine one one. When this happened i would tariffs. But he's got that ability. Yes when they got a hold of nancy pelosi. I am certain that the first guy got her wouldn't have meant to hurt or just scare a little bit but the second guy would have been like grabber ponytail. Don't even know anansie blows. It looks like it would have fucked. They would have ended up killing her. Just that's the way that works. If you're looking to shave your balls manscaping is here to provide you the best tools for your grooming experience. I'm telling you that. S on the toilet. And i thought this is a mess down here so you know what i did. Grandma lawnmower three point. Oh tremors the best hygiene tool for the modern man because their ceramic played an advanced skin safe technology no more snags no more snowballs trimmer just waterproof to take a shower if you want. They've got the performance package. 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Twenty five percent off when you go to cd md dot com and use the promo code bert a check checkout once again that cbd md and use the promo code. Burt at checkout to save twenty. Percents off your purchase of premium. Cbd oil products from cpi md. So that's my point. My point is these guys. Were actually in my opinion much worse than the rebound guys because these guys listen. I don't think they're bad people like you just said i think that a lot of people most people you sit down with them face to face. They're good people. If they're you know of sane mind. But i think a combination of all the conspiracy theories all the stuff that's been added up. They really felt that they were saving the country by the way the kept calling themselves patriots patriots. Even von trump would a tweet. We need the patriots. Did you start calling patriot at some point. You think you're the superhero. There's actually a guy who's a gaming designer and he. He's been commenting on this. He goes cunanan is set up like a game in that in the game. You're the good guy you're going to save everybody. And here's all the bad guys. And he goes cunard's the same they tell you the bad guys are the pedophile and the deep state and the left wing and the dead at a a donald trump is the savior savior. And you're going to help him save everybody so these guys were there with bad intentions and so going back to the islamic republic of iran the the revolution. That happened seventy nine. I was a kid. I was six years old late. Seventy eight and what had led up to that. Revolution was at the time the king of the country. The shaw he had. Yeah let's let's let's let's. Let's take our time with this because this is so fat. I'm so fascinated by monarchy's. I'm so fascinated by by emperors and and all of that right now so the shaw the sh. I'm apologizing. i'm also stupid as fuck. So is the iranian. The persian word for king. Yes so let me let me take you back so saying please. Oh i'm fucking by the way. I got chill bumps. I'm so fucking fascinated by this. Well listen to first of all one of the things again as somebody who an and this is again. What blows my mind with some of my fellow iranians or other people who've come from countries that were led by a totalitarian a monarch and they weren't seeing that with trump because in all honesty the one thing trump did very very well was he took everyone's reality and turned it to the point where only he was right and i say i don't care who you are. There's going to be a time in your life when you're wrong right. You might be right six days of the week with a seventh day. Maybe you made the wrong decision on something so it really humanizes you if you come out and go you know what by the way guys. I was wrong about that thing. This is what's right well with him. You know what you know what also interesting about trump. I mean interrupt. You go ahead. What was also interesting interesting. Really really fascinating about the guy as he was preaching to a group of people that all took what he said is gospel and people felt like and i gotta admit this but then there was also these the centrists like myself who maybe didn't vote for him but would hear some of the shitty said and laugh hysterically. Yeah as if as if it wasn't real like just know like an texture body like did he call ted cruz. Dad the zodiac killer. And you're like and then you just sit. I mean when. I heard that. I laughed hysterically. Said you fucking serious that there is a there is a for whatever that is that kind of shoot from the hip style was so refreshing in politics. And when you hear. Joe biden just come back and everything go back into order. I guarantee there some people in the middle going like i look. I didn't vote for him again. So for this time. And i i. But i didn't vote for him in both forum. But i missed the razzle dazzle. Nobody listen i totally hear you. But here's the problem. Because it's i totally with you and i talked about this in my standup. He says all the shit where you think it's funny but there's enough nutty people out there who believe in take it and go one step further so even before all of this should happen in my in my special my netflix special. Actually i mentioned it. I don't know if anybody ever did a study to find this correlation however in twenty sixteen when he was running and part of his running. Was you know. I'm going to do muslim ban. And then he was like. I'm going to change the iran deal the iran deal horrible so iran was in the news. Muslims are in the news some dude in kansas. I think it was it. Kansas kentucky some like white. You know sixty year old white dude. He went to some bar. He sees these two indian dudes from india. Who are these are just sitting minding their own business and for whatever reason this guy confronts them and in the the heated argument he has with him he goes back into his car comes back shoots. Them both gets back in his car. Goes to another bar goes and tells the bartender. I just killed a couple of iranians. He thought they were iranians. There actually indians one of them died. One of them survived. How ever i guarantee you bert. This dude and kansas or kentucky where the fuck was had no idea what an iranian was. Or why should be worried about them until he saw the likes of donald trump or other politicians saying that's our enemy. That's our enemy our enemy. So that's where we go back to what you just said. Which is i agree with. It was a comedian. I saw the funny right calling. Elizabeth warren pocahontas okay. That's that's a fucking stupid. You would say you know some in a you know Was it called the Like a a an argument of some sort. You're having with you know you want to be funny with a a a a gross battle or something right when he says it and you and i laugh there are others who are watching him and going. She's the enemy. So put her on the list. Put her on their out of their fucking miles. It's heartbreaking you realize how stupid some people are. Did you ever see that guy that went into cosmic pizza pizza game and this is where it super confusing is an i. I understand i. I'm not a well thought out guys just realize that all my everything i'm saying it's kind of like i dunno whatever so people lose their fucking mind over this. I don't care vote for that guy. A little bit mobile stuff. The he's so stupid that he actually he actually was there to save. Children will see burt. Here's the thing. I totally agree with you because my heart breaks for these people as well and for the people who don't know that was off from pizza gate. Pizza gig came about because this whole and on thing. It's kind of part of the all the conspiracy. But when the when when they got access to john podesta's emails john podesta podesta was hillary clinton's campaign manager when they got access to his emails. There was all these orders going through this cosmic pizza place or ordering pizzas and who was was translating. It sat there and said. Oh what's really going on. And this is where the conspiracy comes in these guys are all pedophile because democrats are pedophile and pizzas represent the kids. So when their ordering four cheeses and five whatever's they're actually ordering four on a latino kids and a white kid whatever the hell was and this guy in north carolina believed that got in. His car brought his gun. Went to the pizza place. And you really believe that he really like and your heart breaks the that this guy was led. If someone just put him on the right path he'd be doing something good for the world instead. He really goes in terrifies. A bunch of people probably. I'm sure her. I don't know if you heard anyone or whatever but like you go. Oh the heat. Like i'm i'm i'm a little bit outside or when it comes to politics and like what's going on i really don't even know much about cunanan and all these things but like when you see a story like that you go. Oh my god that he he he he actually believe that actually believes it. But that's the bigger problem comes when you realize there's more people like that than we thought. So when those people go and storm the capitalist and you could be a trump supporter for a million reasons. But somebody would be like. Hey get on a plane. We're going to go change the vote. I don't know about that. You know i'm good. I got some shit to do you know like you know. It's my turn to wash the dishes. I'm not going but when you show up there. I mean there's more so i agree with you that i feel sorry for these people but i'm also worried by these people because i believe that were to get these people out of the rabbit hole. We're going to have more and more people believe like that's the thing trump did he made reality his own so he said listen if if any news organization including fox says anything bad about me. Fake news made it up. And it's like no motherfucker. We use setting years. You just said what we we have clips of us saying the pandemic is just like is is a fake hoax made up by the democrats and then we have an audio of you talking to bob woodward telling him how serious you know it is so how can you say that you never said that so anyway. All of that to say. When i see somebody like that it actually made me remember the cult of personality. That happened under told khomeini. Who's the one who took over for the shot. I'll let me take you back back. So what happens. Iran is this country that has had a lot of turmoil. All through the nine thousand nine hundred and one of the biggest things. I used to say this is the oil right. I always say if you're country with it's like being a drug dealer the cops are coming for you. Meaning america or in the west is coming to get you. You better be ready to flush that shit down the toilet because what happened was early nineteen hundreds. The brits go to iran. they're like oh they discover oil in iran within the brits show up and british petroleum bp that you know we all know they basically take control of majority of iran's oil so magin another country the the. It's have come now the way they you know they call an. Is there a lot of places they've company ron and they're like we're gonna take one of your most profitable resources and bp is going to own that you'll get a percentage but we're going to own a lot of what bp or when when england was like we're going to build the suez canal and And we'll run that and he's just like wait hold on hold on or was it egypt. Saudi arabia wait our land. And like i know but it's going to be better for us if we just run it because we're going to do there and then that was the whole beginning of egypt going. Hey fuck you guys were exactly. This is like it's like like this is like shook night just going around and taking shit and these other guys like wait a minute. I started my own company. I don't need your shit. So so iran was. That's what you ron had the. Be taking your oil and then so in the early fifties so you at the time had a king okay and the king is called the shah. Now a little backstory as well the shah of iran before world war two. The shah of iran was He was friendly with the west This is the the father of the guy who leaves at the revolution so really like in the early from the early twenties early forties. This guy is the king of iran. And he's helping modernize it and and one of the things that happens. Corinthians the word iran comes from the word aryan we come from the caucasus mountains. We are actually like the original white people so so the shah of iran as world war two is coming up. He considers herself area. And he's like well hitler's talking about an alien and he's like he's not discussing good ideas so exactly. There's there's an under. There is an understatement of a. How many people agreed with it back. In the day there was a lot of prince philip. Philip was like. I mean i met him us. Yeah you know he was all right. You know german peers delicious. So this guy. He's the king of iran and he sympathize a little bit with the nazis and mussalini. All that that's when the west comes to him and goes yup across america and the brits and everything go you can't we can't have this shit so you know we're can do we are going to send you into exile. We're gonna let your son become king and that way. Your crown will keep the thrown. But you know you've already said some shit we're going to get rid of you. So this guy he gets exiled and he goes and his stories like kind of tragic to like supposedly left ended up in south. Africa didn't have money in the sun. Was ascending oh. That's a whole other story. But his son becomes the shah of iran. And he's this is now early late forties early fifties and this guy is like twenty one years old. He is western educated. He was educated in switzerland. And they're doing all this regal stuff he's got the gown on the crown and he's like i am now the the king of iran right so this dudes there you know. He's not really qualified to be running a country but he is the person the west wind honey to grow. What were you doing at twenty two. I wasn't even doing comedy at comedy. I was still. I hadn't even graduated first junior year. Yeah you you're still in college. I was twenty two. I was an assistant at an advertising agency. I was working at. A stationery store was running no country so this dude. This dude is there now. What's going on. Just like in england for example. You've got the monarchy and then you've got the parliament right and now i don't know when this happened but for the most part. The parliament holds the power. The monarchy is just you know she. She blesses people and shit like dresses in yellow. By the way the queen of england is the only person i say can dress a full yellow outfit and not be a pimp. You know what i'm saying. I'm telling you bro so anyway. So the iran in parliament at the time has this guy in power. He's he's been democratically elected. His name is masa deb. mohammad massad deaf and he's intellectual older guy. This is early fifties now. He says he is this guy who is smart and he is part of parliament and he's actually a. He's actually inexperienced letter. He now can really kind of push his power on this young man right so when he comes into parliament he says to the country we are going to take back our oil and nationalize it. So what does that do what that does. He basically says to england fuck. You get the fuck out we're nationalizing our oil adios. No more no more this free shit you know you can still get a percentage but mostly it's going to be rs. Yeah so england. All of a sudden is like what the fuck so at the time is almost this. How can i. You're gonna agree with this. Almost one hundred percent. This is how to comedy specials. What's that managers were. And here's the deal. We got a grand poignant. Yeah we're gonna to you ten grand all right. Then we're going to appear on comedy central dory about anything you can sell your shows and we were like iran going. That's a great idea. So the and then one day netflix's like how about we give you the money to make a special like woah. Woo- who's getting that money before managers meant. I don't even know what you're talking about. What are you talking about. And then and then you. Now you own your special so i can sell it in perpetuity shadow that is a great analogy and the shah being young is the social media influence. Her who's trying to who's getting a stand up special you like. How the hell is this dude. He's only sixteen. He doesn't even avenue jobs you to give them a special him in this analogy all right so so most ideal mom and was death. He nationalizes oil now at the time. This is early fifties so as you know in the early fifties. The biggest threat to america was the soviet union and communism. That's why we went to war in vietnam that's why we're career every time you said communism we're like we gotta go and stop that country becoming communist so england being smart goes to come to the us and they tell the americans they listen. Iran is strategically located to the north of iran is the soviet union. And if we don't put our influence in their this guy massad deaf who just nationalize the oil. He's a socialist. And he's gonna take the country towards socialism and communism. And it's going to go communist and the russians are gonna getty ron. And that's when america's helena so under the eisenhower administration they organize a coup d'etat. So going back to this coup. That almost happened here. At the capitol america organized with the cia. There was a guy named kermit roosevelt. There's a book written by. You can look up kermit roosevelt and writing down so much during this by the way these are. These are the jokes i've written. Oh the middle east is like is like a hot checks right now. They're great with big tits oil and whatnot but when they get older and they're all dried up no one's gonna fuck. I want them areas number other stationery store. That's when that's when the windmills. become hot. start go ahead with the windmills. Become off denmark. All of a sudden denmark. Usa work this asian area store. And i almost said. Aren't all stores stationery stores Even joke right. Yeah but keep going. I'm sorry i'm i'm fucking so distracting on my own. I love you man. that's fantastic. So so here's one thing. I've learned and i. I think i'm like this. I don't know if you're like this at all but having done stand up for so long. I am good at like going going going then. Totally diverging from the story for like ten minutes and then going back. You know young. I think that's a standup brain. Yeah and i think. I do that with my like my family. Like they'll get because they'll think they got away from the story so like we'll start a store in the car and then we'll get to totally distracted. My wife probably like thank god. I have to listen to the bullshit story. We'll get home at a dinner. i'd be like so anyway. I'm sitting in the car. Was that like us motherfuckers. Not forgetting his shit. So permit is back. No prob interrupt anytime you want so the name kermit eisenhower kermit roosevelt roosevelt roosevelt. Roosevelt keep going. Yeah kermit roosevelt so cameras. What was the. I think the grandson or somehow related to the roosevelt. Anyway things grandson. He was involved with the cia. He wrote a book about it tells you a to z on how they did it matter of fact. Cia years later. I think under the clinton administration because it's all classified. But then under clinton he actually came out and apologized to iran for having done the coup and is one of the only times because every time people listen conspiracy theorists. Think that there's this well oiled machine somewhere running everything and i go. You know how much shit has to happen. Exactly and people gotta keep their mouth shut for all this shift that you're talking about happen it doesn't happen often. There's a plane full of people on nine eleven that got flown on a map. All that shit. So the cia has has said that the one time when it happens it was at the way they planned. It was iranian ta with more saadat. So what happens is the cia. Get some operatives to go into the streets to protest most of that debt now before this happens. The shaw who again was a symbolic leader. He saw the heat that was coming onto him. Because most of that has now nationalized oil lot of iranians. Like this is great. We're gonna get back oil so this twenty one years old so what he does he goes. You know what. I'm going to go on vacation a rome. So he's just takes off linkages a kid lease a carton of cigarettes and his like. I'll be back mac. So he takes off and most now is there. And that's when they go we gotta do this coup. So they're going to the streets and basically they get these protesters in the streets and go if this guy becomes the ruler iran's gonna communist and so there's protests yada yada yada go down to his palace the get them out they dragged him out and they take them and they sent him into exile and now the door is open again for the shot a comeback so the shore lands in his like had a great time in rome happened. She doesn't even like he didn't like admit i ran away is just i'm back. So he's back and he's and he is willing to play ball with the west now. Have you ever read. The book called by john perkins is called confessions of an economic hit man. Have you ever heard it nope up. It's a great book. This guy wrote this book and he basically goes into all of these government. Overthrows at america was involved with and also. You're saying this i'm going. You know it's not too far off for a country like russia to set up this this insurgency that happened at the capitol us where they start flooding. These they start running these chat rooms going like. Yeah yeah meet up at. What is joe borough okay. Japodlay arts But yeah you're right. You're absolutely right because that's the thing you don't know who's behind some of the show and so on this. John is his book and and in the book he says the way america has worked with other countries. He goes i. They will send in. Big corporations and big corporation will go to some of these countries whether it's like chile or guatemala or iran or whatever and they'll be like hey we're bechtol were halliburton or whoever you know what you guys need. You guys need an electrical grid so we will build that good for you and we will run it for you. And you just got to pay x. y. z. And then we'll rotate that money back into you and give it to your king or whatever it is and ultimately it's a foot in so the now they're dependent on america and eventually you go well now that you now that you've got all this wealth king of x. country you should probably get some american troops to protect you right. Let's get some american troops there on and on and on and he goes if countries play ball with the with the company's deal done. He goes if they don't play ball with his companies then they send in the cia to overthrow that leader. Who's not playing ball. And if that doesn't work then we attack so that's the three pronged approach of america right. This is our past now. Iran is there. The shah of iran is playing ball. Now he says a you guys can have you know the oil will make a better deal for oil. To the west have oil. He starts getting a lot of money because countries getting rich so he starts buying weapons and start building. His military iran becomes one of the strongest militaries in the middle east. It's an ally of the west By the way a fact that probably a lot of people don't know right now. The current government is a muslim government and their antisemitic anti behi- which is the biggest a group that they persecute on iran But the but iran back then and now has the second highest jewish population in the middle east after israel because there's jews living in an era of countries but iran. They were there. So iran is in the middle of that time between like the fifties until the seventies the shah's they're playing ball but also modernizing iran. If you see pictures from like the sixties and seventies women miniskirts they had you know me as a kid. The things i remember. America exports coming so as a kid. The first things. I remember was was seeing the movie rocky big fan of zorro. I had batman and spiderman comic books. I love muhammad ali. I mean these are all things as a kid. I remember and so iran is relatively westernized or is getting there now the problem so the shot did some good things shop. Modernize the country. The country was wealthy. The one thing that shot was being criticized for was because he was a king and a dictator he had a lot of enemies from different groups so whether it was like from the you know liberal intellectuals or from communists or from the religious melas the column there's all these groups that are against the shah and if you criticize the shaw back then she had a secret. Police called savak. And you could disappear so you get this all set up where you've got this guy who is almost like a benevolent dictator too many but there's also enemies of his. Yeah and as the seventy s go on these people that are criticizing him get more and more critical and what happens is there's a perfect storm of these people that are criticizing him and now going back to the iranian community. We have big conspiracy theorist so a lot of iranians thing that somehow jimmy carter was involved with Atallah khomeini coming back. I don't know if that's if there's any evidence of that. But i told the khomeini was a religious leader so imagine. He was like the pope for the muslims of iran and another thing to remember differentiate is the muslims of iran are shiites whereas a lot of arab muslims are suny just like catholic and protestant right but the fact is they don't get along either like they they hate each other like they'll fight the way like saudi arabia and iran. Fight the fight. But i told the khomeini at the time is the leader of the shiite muslims. And what's happened with him is like in the. I don't know the exact date. But let's say late sixties early seventies. He i think the shaw khomeini son for some reason. I think they were like criticizing the shower or something and usually the jail killed so khomeini gets sent into exile kick khomeini out at the time by the way look. This was a dictator ship so they could have killed khomeini like just execute the dude but i think that he had so much power that they said if we execute him his followers are going to get angry. It's gonna retail revolution. So let's just send him into exile and what he would do back then before social media he would do these like political sermons and they would put it on tape and they would sneak into iran and they would disseminate the tapes among all of his followers. So all these people he was from the outside he was iraq at the time he was criticizing. The shaw from iraq and his followers were hearing this and they're getting angrier and angrier and more in line and eventually what happens is late seventies. Some protests start happening in the streets of iran. And i believe the inciting factor was. There was a theater. A movie theater in a city called on q. u. m. which is the religious city of iran. So it's a very religious city so it's like saying like the vatican or something. Yeah i'm trying to like find. Analogies here was trying to think. I was trying to like knoxville. That's exactly like thanks somewhere. Like in the south right. So it's bible belt but it's so there's a movie theater there as called cinema rex and there's like three hundred people in the movie theater. Somebody sets on fire locks doors. People die now going back. The religious people. Blame the shaw's people a lot of people from the shah's side say it was a sat up to kill those guys to incite the protests that were percent the old school antique up. Flip flip flip. So i don't know who did it but the fact is this is so similar to what's going on here. I'm telling you so. The fact is so now in the shiite religion again. I'm not a religious. So i just pick up pieces and bits and what happens is forty days after somebody dies. They go and more than that death. It's like a ceremony and they go in the streets and they march while you have all these people that died there now. People are marching to mourn the people but that march turns into a protests and the protests are getting heated heated and heated and now the military is called in to to quash this protests and some soldiers shoot into the protesters killing some protesters forty days later. There's protests to mourn the death of the protesters escalate to the point where what happened was suddenly all of the shots enemies whether it was you know again the liberal intellectuals or the the the religious types whenever they all start going into the streets and protest and grow and grow to the point where it was when so iran bazaar in iran the is the marketplace where people go and you can buy anything and so the they called the bazaars people own shops in the bazaars and they're big part of the economy so when they decide to come on board joined the protests by closing their shops going into the streets protesting and then all of a sudden next to them are doctors and lawyers their offices to protest. That's when the shaw. I think saw the writing on the wall was like oh shit. This is this time. It's real so he ends up leaving the country in early seventy nine. He flies out the worker. Something i was in new york at the time so my family left. So this is taking you to my personal story late. seventy eight. My father's on business work your dad did was your dad. Like buddies with shaw. My dad was a businessman. he had Came from kind of a tough background and he worked his way up in an electric company. And what happened. He told me one time he goes like in the whatever mid-fifties he goes to the government. Decided they're going to nationalize electricity. So government owns like pg ni and whoever enron enron. You know what i'm saying. All these government's gonna own it. But he said they called a few companies and said we're going to subcontract to you. My dad was one of those companies so all of a sudden my dad starts getting these amazing deals of businesses. And so he's like. They're building the lights electricity from here to mammoth or wherever was and you've got imagine like that's a lot of money that you're coming in and my dad the best fictional character that i could compare my dad too. He was like. Vito corleone from the godfather by my dad was so he helped everybody. He was very powerful. He knew people like you know mayors and police captains and all that stuff. But i didn't use tell me stories about like you know helping people out. But i didn't believe him until when he passed away and i would just run into people and they'd be like are you host should job ronnie son. I was like your dad was the reason i was able to escape. Iran i'm like what he goes. Yeah you know. I didn't have. I didn't have a house and your father was owned a bunch of property and he told me living there and pay me whenever you can that kinda guy like tipping people always very generous so anyway. She is in new york on business before the shah has left before the revolution. He's in york. I'm business and i always tell people. Because the shaw had faced so much turmoil in his twenty some odd years in power and had been able to quash those protests in the past. I think everybody saw these late. Seventies protests as. He's going to stop this as well. Young it'll be over soon so my dad told my mom he goes listen. It's winter break for the kids. Want you bring me and my older sister. Bring them to new york For two weeks while they're on winter break and the you know the protests will die down. You guys can go back and to the point where we even had my baby brother. We left my baby brother in iran. Because we're gonna be back in two weeks. I was a week. We pat for two weeks and we stayed for forty years. You know and and that's a common story for a lot of people that left iran. At that time we thought were going to go back but we didn't go back and so when we come here a few months later the shaw comes and shortly after that i told the khomeini flies in on an air france From france because he'd gone from iraq to france. And that's again where the conspiracy theories go well if the west in what khomeini to go and ruin the country. They coulda kept him in france and ornament prison. But i think you know the west kinda was like all right. Well this guy. They're calling for him and they thought maybe he would actually go 'cause one of the things that this is. This is going back to what. I saw with trump one of the things that leaders like this charismatic leaders. Do they make everybody feel like they're gonna fix everything so khomeini's thing was look. The shot has made himself in his friends. Rich i'm gonna come in. Were all gonna get you know. We're all gonna share in the wealth. Things are going to be fine like at the time of khomeini doctors and there was a brain drain. People were leaving the country and he was saying he's like we don't need. Those doctors will train doctors in two months and be up running while the truth is once he comes in takes power. He is surrounded by a bunch of people and himself included. And they just start executing people that were part of the previous regime like straight up like firing squad ship so it gets dark fast and quickly. They tell women. Cover yourselves up. This is now an islamic republic so whereas women were wearing miniskirts. Now they have to cover themselves up now. You've got the religious police now. you've got that again. Goes back to a lot of stuff. That i worry when i look at trump and what you were saying like part of us laugh at him part of the or key part of His followers are just kuku. Think that like you know. They got to save the world with him. But there's a big part. Also that are these crazy religious types who think that this is all part of the big game. Plan to make america armageddon's come in trump's gonna stop abortions. We're gonna get guns. And jesus is gonna come. So that's the kind of thinking they started happening in iran to the point where like this religious police will be going around the streets and if like a dude as walking with a girl. Just walk up to and be like. What's your relationship. You believe my sister show me. Id's and if god forbid there's not your sister they'd like take you to jail and with you shit so crazy shit happen and and it led dark dark because under khomeini his mind when he took over iran. He thought okay. This is god telling me we're we're onto the right thing. And there's going to be an islamic wave around the world and quickly the neighboring country iraq with saddam hussein who'd been arrival of iran. There's a region between the two countries where there was a little bit of a debate. On who's oil was there. Saddam sees the turmoil iran and he goes. Now is the time for me to go in and get my oil so he starts doing that. That's when khomeini goes were ready to fight and that leads to the iran iraq war was last for about seven to eight years over a million iranians die. I don't know how many iraqis die. But it was so crazy this is how brainwash people were because again in the iranian religion of she ism there is they believe in martyrs so when somebody dies for 'cause they put their picture up on the streets like when you drive around the streets of iran. There's pictures of young people that have died in war and their martyrs and so what they would do under the war with iraq. A friend of mine who had gone to was was part of the military military's mandatory service. There he said early on the war with iraq. The iraqis would lime minefields and the iranians would lineup sheep. Go into the minefields to explode the minds and then they could attack well as you can imagine as soon as a bomb exploded the sheep with disperse so it was the stupidest strategy ever. So what did they do. They went and got these like like twelve thirteen year. Old kids like the boy scouts basically and they said. Are you really patriotic to iran. If you really believe in this god you have been chosen to be a martyr. We're gonna put this key. That's the key to heaven around your neck. We're gonna line you up. And you can march into the minds and detonate the mines. And then our soldiers will come and fight. And that's the kinda shit there were doing when tom got hurt. I asked everyone about crate him. And now we have a sponsor. I wanna thank keenum superior crate him. Because in this busy world people easily get tired and fatigued need a little boost will create them. Powder can help you out. A low dose can make your day energetic and fruitful keenum superior crater offers potent lab tests crate him at an affordable price. It's kind of like a. It's it's like a special alkaloid plant native to southeast asia. And they've got it all you want to try tinctures you wanna try capsules. 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And if you don't counter you can change counselors. It's super easy and free to change counselors of needed more audible than traditional offline. Counseling and financial aid is available in fact so many people are using better help that the recruiting additional counters in all fifty states. This podcast is sponsored by better. Health and bert cast listeners. Get ten percent off their first month at better. Help dot com slash. Burt visit better. H e l p dot com slash. Burt and joined the over one million people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced. Better help professional. It's crazy to me because it kind of like lunatic beliefs and things were like when you talk about Are you guys brother and sister I'm gonna fuck in. Or i'm taking one of your jail. That behaviors kind of been unleashed on the internet in america of like crazy laws. Where you go hold on. Did you just dead name her. And you're like wait. What did i do and like you. You don't you don't have pronouns on your twitter profile. How dare you. You're being canceled like you made a joke ten years ago. That's it we're done with. You know like it is kind of like that is just fascinating to because as a kid i only knew really knew about iran was as a kid was was these these are these are my takeaways that the embassy got stormed and there were hostages and then and that they wouldn't release the hostages until reagan was inaugurated. I they didn't like jimmy. Carter and then was the reason interrupt. The i mean. Listen there's they can be like a twenty part documentary about this whole period because the reason they stormed the embassy was so when the shaath fleas. I think i went to egypt. Were anwar sadat welcomed him but he was persona non grata because he was fleeing and the people that took control in iran were telling every country. We want him back. We're going to put him on trial. What do think think's going to happen. They're going to kill the guy in the worst way possible whereas we pause well so now the shot also we find out had cancer. He has said he went to new york didn't he where did he go. Maybe kettering he went to sloan kettering in new york so he goes to sloan kettering. Carter welcome that's where the hostage crisis happens because these students storm the embassy and they go we're going to keep your Embassy workers until you return the shah. So that's where all that was going on. And as you said reagan as he was running for president Struck a deal with the hostage takers. And i'm not quite sure what was given to them in return. But whatever was the deal was you will release the hostages when reagan is inaugurated which is what they did. I remember the day. They released the hawks hostages. I was in grade school. My mom was teaching. And i remember the sewing busted in the door and goes they released hostages and it was like hough see. I'll tell you as an iranian american. Because i do i do this in my stand up now but i remember because it's an with kids so we were kids so you forget certain things but then when you reminding oche it so i just remember. Ted koppel on nightline the hostage crisis is what made nightline because he would come on and be like day one thirty two when i was at the busy. Still going and you know. I'm caught in these two worlds because i'm like i don't support this but on the playground i got like you know people are gonna come at me for it. It call you fucking iranian back. Then that was a thing they call you fucking iranian. And i didn't but i got caught fucking iranian and and it was like i mean i never i'd never at that time. I had not to interrupt positive. I'd never met. I had no concept of iran at all except for what was on the news. I'd never met an iranian. I'd never i never met anyone. And so i can only imagine being a kid and then being brainwashed. It's us against. I said i said Dj vlad is Is a very popular Interviewer and i think he took offense story. Goes you wrote in your book that you miss the days when when when when we hated the russians and i was like yeah i was like kinda take you knew who your enemy was. So the and he was like yeah. I was rushing kid in america was really rough and i was like. Oh yeah didn't see it that way. I'm sorry man like you know like but it is interesting but keep going i apologize. That's the thing see. That's the thing that that's why again i got. I think the reason one of the reasons trump pissed me off as someone who it was almost like having flashbacks to back then. I had flashbacks the bully. Bing with. Call me fucking iranian when he would call anybody anything i was like you. You're saying and because now i'm old enough to be able to say that but when you're a kid you're like what did i do like i didn't do anything and is exactly what you just said. Look i'm in america. I like you know. I watch football. I played baseball like i. You know. I'm just trying to get by on my day and you're throw me in and that's the problem is like when you get leaders. This is the problem. I have when any politician comes in and goes. It's the china virus. It's the you know it's the muslims. It's the mexicans are rapists and and and and and and drug dealers the caravan. Well you as a leader might mean the government of that country you might mean the actual criminals from that country but the problem is there are a lot of astles in this world and a lot of kids are assholes and they're gonna end up in that school and that poor korean kid. That has nothing to do with china. Some dickhead is going to be like. What's up china virus and this kid's gonna be like are you kidding me. All i was born at saint. Joe saint john's in santa monica. Secondly i'm korean. You fucking idiot. I mean the level of interest that runs so so. That's why i like when you're a leader you got. Responsibility is one thing that come in. Look the chinese government is undercutting us currency of blah blah blah blah blah. They weren't honest and so therefore we're going to put some sanctions on them. I just want to remind people. This is not about any kind of you know. Asian americans or anything. They're good people we love you. Thank you always. You almost got an spoonfeed people. This kinda shit happens. And it's like i remember i again. I i talked about on my stand up. And i don't in all honesty. I don't remember if the if the incidents were the same. But i remember the sixth grader. Rows in the fourth grade and they will call me fucking iranian. And i remember coming day. I had a. I had a nice bike. Like back then was when bmx bikes. Were were happening. Oh yeah. I had racing inc.'s if you have a mongoose recent quote what was your mortgage so bracing over. Like really spoilt kid. My dad was well off so by me ship. i'd like nice pedals and all this shit and we would. We would park our bikes in a gated fence. All day at school and then You know come get your bike afterwards. It'd be locked and you come get it. Come to get one day in the fucking pedals are gone. Who took my fucking pedals. And i don't know who took him. I don't know if it was the guys who were going after the guide them. You know the fucking ariana who did it. Because i was the only pedals that were taken that day where my pedals but i remember walking my bike because there's no pedal i'm walking my bike to the bike to the bike shop and there was like one because i grew up in marin county northern california's very white one black kid who's in the fifth grade. I just remember him talking to me. Like dude you know could be fine and it might stand up i go. He's he's walking next to me on. Don't worry about it. i've been dealing with this shit for two hundred and fifty years. Let me tell you we gotta do you gotta get a therapist. Become a comedian. That's it a dude. I mean it was just was it. It's crazy to be a kid in those times when your people are the enemy and and there's nothing you can do but but like you said the parallels with today are insane. I mean i see videos. Burt like when when the president trump became president with all the anti muslim she. That was going on. I saw videos on twitter. People post invaded. There was there was a family and florida a arab family and was clearly there were and the and the mom had her hair covered. But they're at the beach and they just sitting there at the beaches hanging out and some fucking drunk dude shows up with his buddies. And he's like. This is america dot off this trump's america moth fokker and i'm like really dude really like what have you i have no. I have no leniency. For people who devalue devalue other people. I i have. I have a stuff like that kind of breaks my heart where you go what the fuck is wrong with. Someone can understand that Dunno is like that here. Here's that was in a movie you immediately. Hey if that guy that did that to her saw that movie heat immediately hate himself and go. That guy's a fucking asshole but then he was it and he just thinks Whatever goes back to what you said about feeling sorry. I you know a lot of times. These people who do shit like this come from an abusive home or something like that and my hope is you know i hope people break that you know. Break that chain like if you come from an abusive home then do your best to not be abusive. You know and i tell my kids all the time. I go guys if you're ever in a situation where your friends of yours are picking on somebody ago. I want you to step out of that circle and team up with a kid being picked on. Because i go. That's where you feel invigorated and you will feel good about yourself and this other shit is bullshit like i. I saw my daughter. She's ten so they're on like zoom and chatting and all this stuff and choosing using my computer so when it came up i saw some of the some of the discussion and i couldn't make out. They were leaving one of the girls out so very you know coyly walking with i was like hey i saw you. Guys were talking and that girl. What was she saying. She's like oh yeah she was trying to baba and i and i was trying to see if there were like leaving her out like so. Wait a minute honey. Were you guys leave him. She goes on. She was just having trouble logging on. Go thank you. I'm happy to hear that. And i go. I want to remind you if ever your friends are saying let's leave so-so out you get out of that front you get out of that group and you go. You know what. I'm saying because dude it again. I think comedians. We get to reflect a lot on our on our past. And i think having been having seen that shit when i was a kid. I think that really etched in my brain. And i've always been an impact like i always feel for people that are underdogs like i remember when we first came to america my Dad's friend had a stay at his house for a brief brief brief moment and they had a daughter who had dow syndrome. And i remember. We were all sitting at the table. Were all eating and she was kind of acting up and the parents like yelled or whatever so so go to your room. And she kinda was like upset. She goes through. And you don't even know. Do like i myself like five minutes later. Kind of moses over to her room and just be like hey you out i mean they they locked gotta gotta bullshit parenting. Snickers bar or like chunk agreed. File shit man. i'm like It's interesting bet. You and your wife had such different experiences as children were. Your children are growing up in a place. Where i mean i would. I don't know i. I like i said i don't know what it's like in the rest of the united states by only live here my daughters. Are they go to public. They went to public school but they were so oblivious of racism but they were acutely aware that they were white and they were not mexican or black or like they were. You know there was like it was almost like a like a really healthy dose of like of like hard knocks but with a bunch of privilege covered around it where there were like there's a very open about gender equality and transgendered rights and issues and all of that and and race and everything however they they also grew up in the yard at a at a public school where they were like. They're like oh mexican. Kids say the n. Word black where we stay away from that shit. Don't ever want to fight a black check. That was. I watched this one girl. Fuck this one girl up in the hallway like kinda world where you're like okay so you have enough to stay out of the mix but yeah no. It's great i. I really the kids. Mike kids give me hope for the future because exactly you said like they seem to be in the know and it's not a cancel culture thing at all. It's kinda like they're on it like my son is in seventh grade. And he's part of like the social justice group and they're talking about you know from climate change to the black lives matter too. I mean they're they're they're in the know and and that's why it always it it confuses me or puzzles me when i see young people that are like hard core. Republicans and again that has nothing to do with like again. I have republican france. I have democrat friends but like the bench. Shapiro's charlie kirks who are like in the early twenties. And they're like well you know we need to defend the liber and i'm like don't you have a rebellious bone but i think that they're rebelling now against the laughed but in reality it's not really rebellion. Because i think whether you like it or not. I don't care what side you're on. This country's becoming more diverse. This country is moving in like you know they say that the the the the ark of the social justice bends towards a of a mess it up bends towards justice basically so when you look at like whatever tech a few years ago gay people get married legally. That's so that was real right thirty forty years ago black and white couldn't do it right so we know maters me but yeah of course. I'm aware i'm aware bring up sensitive issues. There was a comic. I wish i remember this. That had a great joke about that. And i was like it was a long time ago. Keep going. I'm gonna fuck yoga. No but i'm just saying like these kids you're right like my hope when i see our kids and listen you're right and in a way they're still privileged where we're growing up Privileged but i do like to see our men. I love it when i see like young people who are politically active politically active. The fact that a hundred and what would be like fifteen hundred sixty million people went out and voted this time like the loser and the winner had the most votes. That's i think that's a world we need to be a part of. I think that. I think we need more and more people to care about these things because when you don't care about it then you sit back and then you complain. We go well. What did you do to change this time around. Like i'll tell you. I've become more and more political as the years have gone by so few elections back. I might be like. I don't a little bit of money. Then like the previous election was doing a little bit more money than this time around. I donated money. I did phone banking. I went to nevada and was a poll watcher. Like i was getting active. I was helping people. Fi- make sure they had the proper. There was a a nonprofit that that's also a non-partisan but tends to be more people on the left are reaching out but it was to make sure people have. The right idea is to vote in every state. So i felt like i was part of something and i think that's important. I think our kids your kids. My kids are are that. And and i think that they're not they're unapologetic about it. You know i i. I want my kid to come up and be like look. I'm organizing a protest or march or a fundraiser or whatever. I'd be proud of that kid. I'd be like that's you know. That's that's how because because you see people when you watch that girl. Amanda gorman give the recite the poem at the inauguration and she so she's twenty. Two years old. I was like holy shit like disk. Go how dude. I've been doing. Stand up for twenty two years on forty eight years old i keep trying to write an op ed piece about something and talking myself out of it but nobody wants to hear my pin forget i want to do you know or even like i wanted to rant on my instagram. I don't want yeah. We're gonna judge you know be proud. Stand up that person's a person just like you get up and fight for justice. And i think our kids are that yeah. I said to someone during the right before this election. I said i don't really you know. I don't really care about politics. I don't really follow it too much and it was a i. Maybe it's a black or black dude who has with. But i can't remember it was miss pattern. My bus driver ron but But they were like you don't have to. I was like yeah. I don't yeah and they're like yeah if he gets elected again. Nothing changes for you and if buying wins nothing changes for you like you know. You have no horse in the race. You just. everything's gonna be fine because you're white and never realized like i'd always just been like i dunno politics me off. It seems like a reason. People can't hang out or party or or beat a bar the second someone brings up politics. Everyone's shuts down. Oh fuck and all of a sudden you have to bring that up. He's right over there like let's just all hang out and they're like hey you don't have anything to lose. I forget who it was. It told me this. I wish i knew because i would love to credit them and i was. Oh fuck man now i. I don't have the luxury of being tied. Try to keep it out of my act. Because because i i definitely don't wanna polarize people who decided to come. See me from and i know that i'm not. I don't have all the answers nor do i have whatever opinion i give. You is going to be half informed. And so why would i like. I'm not but you know what that's a beautiful thing because you got to talk about what you're passionate about what you wanna talk about right and fact is that the your politics may find you. Like i was talking to debbie gutierrez on my podcast and she told me because she started getting political on twitter. And i was like debbie. What would made you wanna get political. Because she's just you know parenting stuff. Did you know our kids Both wanna or or or lgbtq. I think one of them is as she said You know the church. We went to was suddenly unacceptable of that would realize i got stop. It's my kid. And that's why i'm telling you it's like a cause will come your way where you're like. Oh shit like like for me. Look i've always been political for and there's been a lot of stuff where again i was a little more hands off. Political did protests like. I'm being antiwar stuff. But i did protest against the iraq war but this time around it was. I think part of it was that muslim ban realizing like this month. The focus coming after everybody. And when i say this motherfucker not just him. Just that mentality of you know what we're going to you know new. Muslims refugees are bad. I mean listen. I i could break it down for you left and right but i keep running into people. Tell me these stories. There's a group called. Mary's list this girl by the way as many as crazy like nut jobs as are out there. There's people doing the work of angels. So this girl. Murray is this white girl who All of a sudden got a message from a friend. Go and hand. You had babies recently. There's a syrian. Refugee family recently came to this area. Do you have any like any of their like car seats. Anything i could use. So they go to visit the syrian family. They've come to america. They got nothing. So miri what does she do. She puts a little post on our facebook. Page hey guys trying to find some stuff for this family. Can you help me out. And all of a sudden so long story short. She creates a a nonprofit called mary's list m. i r. y. Mary's list so she's been helping all kinds a refugee families from all these different countries. And these are people running away from war. And they're coming here and they got nothing so she helps them find housing get their furniture etc etc and What what's amazing about her is when i talked to her she goes you know before trump had taken over the. Us had a limited was like maybe like a hundred and twenty thousand refugees can come to america and she said that was the number that was set and by the way all those people are vetted to make sure they're legit all that stuff and she goes usually when they were aiming for one hundred twenty you would get like eighty percent of that would make it here and settle them in. She goes under the trump administration every year. That number's gone lower lower to the point. Where like this past year was like eighteen thousand rollout out so we were from one hundred twenty two eighteen thousand now. Why does that affect me. I'm not a refugee. But the reason affects me is because i'm an immigrant who left the country that was in turmoil and i landed in america and if i had landed and they told me no. You're not allowed. Go back to that situation. I go what the i go. How do i not sympathize with somebody who's in a war that you know. Possibly we had a hand in somehow causing you know what i'm saying so out of hand and any fucking war in this we had some. We have some skin in that in that game. always do. i'm getting contacts and your contact lens. Wearer you know ordering contacts can be a hassle. Now you can order your contacts even leaving the house and it's super easy to do with one eight hundred contacts. They've been delivering contact. Lenses for twenty five years and have your contacts in stock. Even if you have a strong prescription or astigmatism. It couldn't be simpler. You order the same context. You get your doctor. Just look on the side of your contact box find prescription details and you can order online order over the phone or with their app and they ship them fast and free to your home. You can even renew your prescription online using their express exam. There's award-winning four. 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I have is either to try to help. Somebody read a book. Write a joke but When you think about it like i got really bothered when I got really really bothered. Who's gonna sound so fucking white privilege but Like when we redid our house and the stereotype that you that that was being put out there about mexicans when you have any sort of construction going on that you're living through when you're living in a construction site you realize that is an extremely inaccurate There's a very inaccurate statement Every i i don't i can't say everyone but in my experience all the guys were latino most predominantly mexican. They're the sweetest guys. The fucking most fearless guys and fucking and the hardest working guys and they're working on our new house to i love these guys. They're kind of like family like you use anyone that knows it. They've done work. The people that work on your house kind of turned into family. A little bit you know. And so i got really bothered with any stereotype that was put out there about mexicans being. They're just coming here to rape. And i was like. That's not who fucking gets crawls through a tunnel from one side of the country to another side to that's not the kind of person who gets crammed in the under beneath of a truck to get his country. That's someone looking for opportunity. Yeah rapist is just gonna stay there like if anything if anything. We should not allow. Anyone have been any more american kids. Like like i'm gonna fill like that's his lazy. That's not doing shit. I say it. All the time i go. The biggest threat to americans are. Americans are horrible right off the bat and singapore. Listen listen listen first of all no apologizing because we're just talking one one of my biggest pet peeves by the way is when people come on on my on my social media twitter. That goes stick to comedy. I'm like you know what motherfucker you stick to accounting whatever the fuck it is you do. I'm a human being and i can have political opinions and this is my political opinion. And what you just said see. That's that's where you see these people and you know i guarantee you burke if one of those guys was working on your house you saw him out there one day crying. And you're like what's going on. There were like well. They deported my wife. Because xyz you would be pissed off and be like fuck this bullshit with deporting and blah blah blah because dude if you watched it they have a this documentary series on netflix skull immigration nation. And usually i get through. I go from episode one two ten. Whatever it is i watch it. Will this by episode two. I was like. I can't watch this anymore. It was so heartbreaking because it talks about this documentary filmmakers. Were able to follow around ice agents just at the time when trump became president and it would go round deporting people and it's interesting because at first the ice agents are like well. I have no problem doing what we're doing. Because we're deporting people have a criminal record. So i'm fine with that suicide guy. Says he gets a call and he's like he's well i guess we're just deporting people who Whose visas of visas have expired so he went from deportable criminal records to deport people. They did not have criminal records. And then you see. There's one story like just breaks my heart. There's a guy who was like a cop el salvador and there was a salvadoran gangs who were coming after him. And there's a new york cop who is talking in the documentary on his behalf and he's like yeah. You know when so and so eduardo. In salvador whenever i needed any kind of Information on the salvadorian gangs. I would call him. He'd helped me out in new york and then one day i was talking to me said. Hey listen man the coming after me. I need to come to america. So he brought his family to america now when he comes here. He's not documented but he sets up shop he becomes a plumber he. He pays his taxes. His kids are teenagers his living the american dream. Everything's fine and they show the cops show up the ice shows up. And they're like sorry buddy. We got deport. You and he's like but i'm here. I'm doing everything right. And they go well under this new administration. You're not get out and you see that and you're like what the fuck and so all of that to say you know. I think our lives are politics. And and i think that when we let down our guard you know you don't have to be on stage talking about it but there are times when going back to the bully thing you either step stand up for the for the underrepresented or sit back and watch it. And that's the choice right. So i choose to stand up and take a lotta shit for my people. I had so many iranians that loved trump on. They're calling me. There is a there is a huge swath of of of middle eastern dudes who loved trump like loved him and it was i was. I was very taken aback by that. I didn't expect that. But it's crazy. They love like they think that he's strong. And this and that and then the iranians thought because the problem one of the problems with trump again going back to logic like like when you talk about like this guy who's at the pizza place and doesn't think for a moment like why would they have a a pedophile ring. A pizza place. Like i used to do i try to joke about. It was kind of dark. But i was like by the way pizza. Places the worst place to have a child sex ring because you shop. It'd be like these. These kids are a little fat like given me any kids. Is there like a child. Sex ring a whole foods. Summer healthier kidney. These kids have been eating the pizza so something like that. I forget the joke but it didn't anyway. The the trump had said that he was he basically had put in the minds of a lot of iranians that he's gonna get rid of the muslim leadership the melas so a lot of iranians really bought into that. Now then go. What's his game plan. They're like. I don't know there's really no game plan. So i continue to be vocal And probably lost a lot of fans for it. But i was like i would rather have that then to be quiet at but this is me because this is just who i am you know then to be quiet and be like oh whatever i you know i i i kept all the fans that i'm lying to now because you know you know what i'm saying like but that's been my style for my entire career talk politics what Let's we pivot and talk real quick about your special. And i didn't get to listen to your podcast and i just was listening to the beginning of that guy that had the worst two thousand twenty. Sammy semi semi obey. What happened to his twenty twenty. Holy shit burt. First of all. I want you to come on my podcast love to. I'd love to love to have you on. This of sammy obeyed. Sammy's this sweet guy. So people that don't know my pockets. Go back to school with mazda brownie and the whole concept came because my son and daughter would ask me questions that i didn't know the answer for so i a senate googling it i'm going to bring on experts and will learn from them now. It's become basically an excuse for me to talk to people with interesting stories. So i've had people on like michael cohen. Who was donald trump's fixer. All the way to a guy who helped the The rover on mars to a woman who is a cave diver. she goes under glaciers. Just bought her book. It's amazing she's an father book. Yeah have her on your show. She's her story. The book is crazy. Her story is crazy but any his fellow stand up. Comedian and sammy is of palestinian descent. But he's american. And here's what's crazy as i have done zoom shows with sammy all through the pandemic He and i both went to uc berkeley. So we did a we've done shows for incoming freshmen uc berkeley for the past three or four years. He's this smart handsome put together dude. I'm on his mailing lists on email and one day he sends out an email. He's like i got a ms must muscular Multiple sclerosis in twenty twenty. I'm like what. I started reading it and basically the gist of it is. He started having these pains. And this weird shit and like he would like open a door and like his shoulder would crack and he couldn't figure out what's going on and then he emails his doctor to set up an appointment doesn't hear back from them and starts calling them. They're not responding and then gets in touch with four months later and they're like oh that guy has disappeared. We don't know where he went. He's like what so then he finds a doctor on google. That's in his insurance because he has obamacare as she's got one star on google and then she sends them to go get tested and it comes back that you might have ms and what so. She's basically telling me he's got this disease. That might kill him and then it falls on him to go and do further research to find out a wasn't ms but it was something else in the meantime he finds out that his father is cheating on his mother. And i mean it's it's the craziest story as he told me. This is a movie of what happened. You and in the middle of all that. He thinks he got corona virus. So it's like it's the craziest story. Ever i gotta i gotta listen to that podcast. I started listening to it. The other day on the on the treadmill and i was like i was like wait. What the fuck. And then. I was like i was just talking about it. It is crazy. It's one of those things that are like i'll tell you like under my covert like. I'll tell you as soon as kobe. Hit our dryer. Stop working so. My wife was sent me out to public laundromat. Dry the clothes. And every time i would lean into the dryers to get the close my forehead would hit. I'm like oh fuck. I got covid head so that happened and then we gotta fuck it. There was a mouse loose in our house and the exterminator could catch him so finally he gave me this thing. It was like the jaws of death. And he's like you set it up. You catch him. I caught the fucking thing at like three in the morning. But he wasn't fully dead. He was running around my house with his head in the thing is i thought i had a crazy. Twenty twenty like it just got a refrigerator. Stop working the house was falling apart. When i heard sammy story i go dude. None nothing compared to that. Nothing compared tell me about those specials on peacock right yes. The specialists called pandemic warriors. So what happened was end of twenty nine hundred nineteen i go to dubai by december twenty nine thousand nine. I shoot a special. I call it peaceful warrior because my whole point was. I'm not gonna get into arguments with anyone who is politically not aligned with me because that happened a few times where my show got derailed and i decided instead of arguing. I'm just gonna taichi that shit so the next time i say trump joke is somebody yells at me. I'm just going be like. Oh thank you for expressing yourself. What a great country you can do that like. There's actually a clip if you go on youtube and put mas job. Ronnie trump heckler. There's a lady at at Our stink our this video. Yeah it said What's it called What's the one in burbank called Not the ice house Fucking slappers flappers. It's a flappers. And the lady i do this very like innocuous trump joke and she's drunk. She's like i as a woman am offended and i was like. That's fantastic in america. You can be a woman. it'd be offended how. What a great country is. She just doesn't know what to do. Because i'm not like going like this. I'm touching it. So i called my my my tour peaceful warrior because i was like upset and say my shit but be peaceful film and in two thousand nineteen december thinking to myself. Ok twenty twenty. I'll go home. i'll sell it. I'm on tour. This is my year and then fucking locked out. And i'll tell you what's amazing burke is. I started watching some specials that came out during lockdown. And i remember seinfeld. You know. One of the best comics in the history of comedy. His special came out. i'm watching. It felt foreign because because it was like it was almost like a shot it on mars because there was an audience and he's talking about like how upset is about going out of the house and i was like what like it was weird and it wasn't it was funny stuff but it just was. We locked down so i realized since it was almost like a blessing music. Okay since mine isn't coming out now let me go back and shoot like three minutes at the top of me in a closet doing comedy to a computer and then tell people. I'm aware that we're on lockdown. And now here's the special. I shot in dubai. You watch it. And then i come back and do another three minutes at the end as the credits roll and i called it pandemic warrior and so it's coming out on peacock January twenty eighth people can stream it all the time. And i'm doing a run because i support a charity called It's called the international medical corps and they are doctors without borders But a actually go to places of disaster. The train the doctors to deal with those disasters and currently they've been helping with kobe. Relief all over the country. And so i was just in touch with One of the people there. And i said yeah my specialist coming out on january twenty eighth and she was like. Oh there's a run you can do and i go. You know what i'm gonna do. I'm gonna do a run hashtag. Run with mas and i'm going to challenge myself i've been running five or six miles. Oh the whole time. I'm thinking what clubs like a run of clubs and now i'm sudden i'm like wait. I'm running to keep going. Yes so. I've been running five to six miles like every other day. So what i'm gonna do. Is i set a goal. Thursday to twenty eighth when my special comes out. I'm going to run ten miles hashtag. Run with mas. And i've been telling people set a goal for the twenty eighth. You know one mile five miles ten miles and donate whatever you can to international medical corps. My hope and goal is to raise five thousand dollars for them that day. This is in lieu of like a premier party will do a run with mas and then i'm hoping people will then go and enjoy the special. Anybody wants to join me on the run with mas. They can go to my instagram at maggio. Ronnie and it's in my link tree right there. It just goes to run with mas on international medical corps and let us raise money for a good cause. Aren't i'll do it. i'm gonna. i'm gonna law job. I've been running five and a half miles every day. I'm trying to run two thousand this year have you. what's the most. You've ever run thousand miles last year. I ran a thousand. I've seen at one time. What's your biggest marathon twenty minutes okay. Okay i've never done half marathon. it did happen. Marathon did have marathon. And then i did I did the la marathon like two years ago if you ever decided to another marathon. Let me know. And i'll train with you have wanted to run a marathon. I didn't train. I just ran it. I didn't train it all. let's do it. let's do it like like legit. You know. Chris williams. You know chris. Williams is yeah. I think so. Yeah crazy is killer on On curb your enthusiasm yeah. He's my good buddy. He's run marathons. All over the world. He went and ran and rome. He ran all over the place. I heard i heard. I heard fucking eddy izard. Running another fifty marathons and fifty days. That's the guy to i. He told me about that. I mean i listen. I just want to run one. But i'd like to i dude. I didn't train for the half won. And i was like. I've never been that soar my entire life so but i would like to train for a marathon and if you're at all on board if you feel inspired i say we do it and like i said thursday. I'm going to go for ten. And that's the most i've run in the past. Maybe fifteen twenty years. So i'm going to both nice okay. Well i'll tell you what. I'll get you up gazon. I'll run on the twenty eighth. i'm already going to be running anyway. Might as well throw in another five miles. Let's do it dude. let's do it hit it man. I appreciate you doing that. And if you ever have something. You're doing where you got to raise money for some let me know i'll do it right back at ya ya i appreciate you doing. This is a great conversation man and congrats on the special love. The podcast and i gotta get on the podcast soon. We're going to do it. I'm happy to see you like this. I can't wait to see person. Hug it out. And i hope you're latino workers complete the house some time out. They they think. I am such a bitch today. I saw them. And i was like yeah. I'm a mask on while side. They're like looking at me like fucking pussy and they always cut back to the time and they'll go to you remember one time when they were building this house. They didn't know what i did for a living. They just saw me come back with men into my man cave for like two hours and then leave giggling and they said to leeann one night when they go. What does he do like. What do you mean. They're like he doesn't have a job like he doesn't work. What does he do just goes back in that room with men. They were making fun of me. Thinking i'm just back your fucking dudes and then a prostitute such a bitch all areas they. I'm telling you we had. We had a worked on our house to. When i see these guys do the things that do exactly like you said. I'm like oh my god. I got my game bro. I have no game compared to these guys up on the fucking roof. No fucking rope two stories putting in fucking roofing. And i'm just like oh my god it's crazy and it's funny 'cause like you'll be like oh good i feel like the guy said he's doing roofing. I'm like hey you know. This electrical thing is not working dory my friend and he goes over like he knows the fuse. He knows where my shit i'm like. How do you know wherever the him like. Shit i care like you know. My wife is so funny my previous house. My wife got sick of these light bulbs that were out. And was always touring. And i'd be like again them again. Them brutally screwing in a lightbulb. So one day. I show up. She's like i got a task rabbit coming into the light bulbs i go what you crazy. She's like you're always away. You never wanna whatever you already got the lady let dude this task rabbit girl comes. She starts walking around the house like a note pad to go. See what bulbs gotta by. She goes on top of this one. Like little a case where we keep plates. And there's a light coming off of it as she looks and she's like did you guys know that there's a book up here that's on fire. What had no idea like art. This task rabbits saved our house from funding going anyway. It's funny dude. Awesome brother i will talk to you soon. Congrats on everything man. Thanks bert in later brother. This episode is brought to you by the machine.

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Selective memory: The U.S. and Iran

Post Reports

32:59 min | 1 year ago

Selective memory: The U.S. and Iran

"From the newsroom of the Washington. Post this is Vanessa belief in Washington Post Washington. Post High Danzon. This is post reports. Hi Martine power. It's Friday January eighteenth today seven decades of history between the US Iran. And what that history could mean for. What's to come? So what do you think the average American knows about the history history of the relationship between the US and Iran other than the movie Argo P- shocked the civilized world. It's interesting you mention. Argo has been seized and more than sixty American citizens. The be held as hostages if we're going to go because I think that for the majority of Americans it was the embassy takeover on November Fourth Nineteen seventy-nine nine that most people think of as sort of beginning of are problematic relationship with Iran and I know some of those former hostages and I once asked one of them WHO's become a friend? What what he thought of that film he saw he said you know? I thought it was really entertaining but it wasn't assume based in any lived experience that I know shocking Hollywood Hollywood basically divorced itself from reality but I think that the reason that film did so well was because it was rooted in a moment of history that still lingers the American imagination. It's a wound on our psyche. That for better or worse has colored our entire hire relationship with Iran and frankly the Middle East ever since I am. Jason resigned on opinions columnist for your title. You probably remember Jason. He came on the podcast last year. Talk about his experience being held in an Iranian prison for a year and a half. But now I am a global opinions columnist for the Washington Post and and I was formerly are were Tehran bureau chief. I wanted to talk to Jason because he understands relationship between the US and Iran really well and as a news has come out over the last couple of weeks. Jason says that he feels like there's a lot of context that's missing a lot of moments in the history of this is conflict that many Americans don't know or don't remember and you have to think about more than just nine hundred seventy nine and the hostage crisis exactly. I think we have to first and foremost think about the WHO in one thousand nine hundred eighty three this was a coup Iran that was orchestrated by the CIA. Yea Right so in the early fifties the Shah was pretty weak leader. His father had been exiled after world. War Two he had taken over a very young man and the show. Is that someone who is who inherits this role and that his family had been leaders of Iran on or is it like a democratically appointed thing monarchial system. That's passed down from generation to generation but his father was the first in that dynasty. kind of a self created dynasty honesty. There was a vacuum of power in the early twentieth century. That reservoir razor-sharp Pahlavi. That's the family name sort of filled and created his own dynasty. That ruled for about sixty years but when he was exiled and his son took over the sun was pretty weak. There was a parliament in Iran. It was fairly strong and the leader of that parliament was a man named Mohammed. Mossadeq who had been educated in France was a Secularist who believed in democracy and in nineteen fifty one nationalized Iran's oil industry and as you can imagine in America and the UK are really upset because they were the ones who had control of Iran's oil industry up to that point so they thought to themselves. We really need to get yeah. This guy had the capability of infiltrating Iran with spies through the embassy in but it wasn't on something that the president of the time really wanted to do until he was convinced that Iran was under threat of falling the communist right the Brits got got involved and basically said hey look president of America. We're going to be in big trouble if most of their takes on towards Moscow right and that inserted the sort of been during the height of the Cold War tours and we're talking nineteen fifty three so a guy named Kermit Roosevelt and his name is his name in Kerman and he's also a Roosevelt one of that family concocts a plan to institute a coup in Iran the Oil-rich Kingdom of Iran on and it's pro western Shah Mohammad. Reza Pahlavi witnessed a contest for power beginning August sixteenth nineteen fifty-three between forces loyal to the Shah. And and those supporting the redback regime premier motor nick by most accounts. All sort of fell into place in last minute everything worked out. They were able to take take this guy out without taking him out. Meanwhile in Tehran itself all stood ready to welcome the return of the Shah after the dramatic development in events which I compelled team to free and then led to a royalist data in which must headache was arrested now everywhere. Supporters thronged the streets proclaiming their loyalty to the shop in return the the young Shah to the throne and the one who is previously Kinda weak and yeah and prop them up for the next thirty years. And that's how this animosity began and it's also how the US. I decided to become sort of involved in regime change operations throughout the world if you look at things that they did in Guatemala and attempts to take down on the Castro regime the blueprint was always the nineteen fifty-three coup in Iran. Because it went off so swimmingly exactly and so do we consider that sort of a a golden era of Kinda lovey dovey feelings between the US. And maybe not actual people in Iran the leaders of Iran at the time or people who are are allied with with the young shaw. WHO's put back and that was the beginning of this love affair and A sort of unshakable relationship that was built on a lot of transactions for oil in exchange for weaponry and we saw the shot somebody who was completely pliant and flexible supposed to Americans demands. He was pro western. He was frankly not that comfortable with his Iranian or Islamic constituencies and feel more comfortable in chalets in Switzerland than he did in Tehran and that was not a problem for America. I can see why that would be a problem for people. People in Iran right and during that time the American presence in Tehran grew and grew ruin grew American companies doing business there whether it was oil companies or a or aviation and military companies. You had had a massive American diplomatic core there so when we talk about the embassy being taken over. If you go to Tehran the American embassy compound powder which still exists is a huge piece of property right in the middle of town with a massive brick wall around the you could imagine the angst and resentment of people Seeing that this this big walled compound in the middle of the city was what they called with. The revolutionaries called the dent of espionage During that time in the mid fifties to the late seventies little by little the Shah started subsidizing the studies of a lot of young Iranians. It's coming to the United States so sort of The dream destination of Iranian students. My father was one of those people came in nineteen in fifty nine and ended up living his life here But the idea was. Let's get a large western educated population to come back can develop this country you mentioned before we sat down here that that one of the moments that people tend to not remember tend to not talk about is the moment when the Shaw aw came to the US to visit with President. Jimmy Carter in nineteen seventy seven. What what happened there in? What's this right behind that? So there was a lot of visits that went back and forth. The Shaw came a couple of times a year. Jimmy Carter that year travelled to Tehran in the New Year's with the Shah and his wife. I asked my wife. With whom would you like to spend New Year's eve and she said above all others I think with the show so we prep accordingly on on behalf of all the people of Iran. Welcome to our country. And this event was sort of a welcoming the Shah to the United States in solidarity karate with the US government. They had a ceremony at the At the White House on the Rose Garden and the Shaw reached out to community community leaders. All over the country and said you know we will pay for you as Iranian Americans to put together a group of people from your community to come and welcome the shah. I I know about this because my father was one of those people that they reached out to the the Iranian consulate and San Francisco. And at that time. There were probably half a dozen Iranian consulates. What's around the US Reached out to him and said we'll charge you an airplane bring you know. Eighty of your closest friends and relatives doesn't matter if they're on Interamerican the American together we want you to make signs to welcome the Shaw and all this and so you know my parents said I was year and a half old. I have pictures from from the occasion. Thank God and part of the motivation behind that too late demonstrate that there is support for him even though he was starting to face more unrest back home completely. That was the entire idea of it and at the time as I mentioned there were so many Iranian studying here My Dad was a older brother and a large family of siblings who he was bringing to the US little by little his youngest sister was in high school at the time. And she she said to him so you don't get involved with this. There's going to be a protest people already talking about it. People High School were telling me that you know they're friends in college are going to go in and disrupt OPTUS and and that's exactly what happened. I mean there was a couple of thousand people out there. This is at the White House at the White House. Right tear-gas when you you can. If you look in the Archives of nine hundred seventy seven you can find these images of Jimmy Carter and the Shaw on the lawn of the White House sort of covering there is from teargas. That's something that today. That sort of attack right on the White House grounds impossible to imagine so that should have been the kind of canary in the coalmine for for what was to come. Iran was experiencing a lot of turmoil in nineteen seventy seven seventy eight eight big backlash against the Shaw the monarch. Who was America's most important regional ally at that point We bought a lot of oil from from Iran and Iran military equipment for us was a stable relationship. Jimmy Carter who was the president of time so that we have no better friend in the world old than Iran Iran because of the great leadership of the Shaw is an island of stability doc and one of the more troubled areas of the world. This is a great tribute to you Your Majesty into in your leadership and to the respect and the admiration and love give to you so in nineteen seventy nine when the revolution really kind of picked up steam and they took down the Shaw for woman let Iran. His hostile was a huge surprise. To American policymakers it left them scrambling about what to do next. The person who co opted this this revolution which was a multifaceted. Acid many grouped attack on the monarchial system was the Ayatollah Khomeini who had been an exiled religious leader out of the country for about twenty five years. He comes back to Tehran in February of Nineteen seventy-nine mania with being helped down the steps of his Frans jet the federal courts on Iranian ground. For the first time in fifteen years I move and Swaran comfortable became increasingly no this it was the rallying cry brought down the shaw now to his followers leaking outside the implacable opponent of your gum in a sort of anointed as leader of this new regime they hold a referendum which which is basically yes to his llamas republic or not Islamic republic. It passes ninety seven percent in favor of yes to Islamic republic. There hasn't been another vote sense uh-huh and everything that we know about the repressive nature of the Iranian regime stems from that. Within a couple of days women are forced to cover their hair and their bodies in public the job becomes enforced any manifestation of anything. That's considered a Western or foreign non-islamic lifestyles outlawed blood. Alcohol and everything else you can imagine and so this shocking period of tumult in the country but still the US government thought that had a handle on things and that the Islamic Revolution in the Islamic republic would be short lived and would be replaced pretty soon by a more malleable pro American and state. That didn't happen. In November of Nineteen seventy-nine American Embassy in Tehran is in the hands of Moslem Salem's students tonight spurred on by American speech by the Ayatollah Khomeini storm the embassy. American inside have been taken prisoner and according to a student student spokesman will be held as hostages until the deposed Shah is returned from the United States. The American hostages were blindfolded handcuffed and marched out on the US embassies the front steps by the revolutionary students. And things have never been the same sense who captured the American psyche. It's bond The idea of late night news shows nightline originally ABC's nightline was was essentially sleep tracking the events of the hostage crisis. Good evening this is a new broadcast in the sense that it is permanent and will continue after the Iran crisis over there also be nights when Iran is not the major story was the US has president worried about what was happening in Iran. Did they see any have cracks developing. No if you go back and you okay read. What the president's in the seventies so Richard Nixon Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter had to say about Iran and those are three very different presidencies residencies all of them thought of Iran as one of their best and most important allies in one of the most productive and profitable relationships that we had in the world? Nobody saw it coming even if you read the cables leading up to the embassy takeover in November of nineteen seventy nine week or two in advance. The ambassador was saying nothing to see. Here everything's GonNa be alright. Yeah I think that's an important cautionary tale for right now because even when we had eyes and ears on the ground and presumably large intelligence presence in that country. We got it wrong. How now when we haven't had anybody there an official capacity for the last forty years and no states person? No American American states person has visited Iran in all of this time. How can we presume to tell ourselves that we have a handle of? What's going on that site? Yeah I don't think we can so one thing that I've always wondered about. The Islamic Revolution is like even the fact that it's called the Islamic Revolution. Like was it. It was it a revolution change of political leadership that was really driven by religious beliefs. End and how people wanted to see those beliefs manifested or was it more of a political revolution. I try and not calling Islamic Revolution. Because it wasn't it was a political revolution. It was the Iranian and revolution against the monarchial system that they'd been living under for very long time that it became the Islamic republic and was co opted by a a clergy was one of these anomalies of history. So when you look at the ship from the reign of the Shah to the Islamic republic were there actually some commonalities there like what is their common thread. There's a couple of comments reds in very obvious obvious one is that both were very repressive. Regimes that did not allow dissent noted as very strong Authority not figure in Iran. And yet you're extremely popular with the people. Somebody said to me if there were a referendum held tomorrow ninety percent of the people would vote Yes for the show in all his policies. Why then you need to be authoritarian? If you have this kind of popular support warmth it's more than ninety percents. Secondly what you call author talk to you to enforce the law to make your such fantastic drastic changes without without bloodshed shoe. Call this authority. I don't think that my people mind that they want taste. That's not uncommon in the world but in the case of the Islamic republic they were promising a much freer and more democratic democratic society. And that has not happened. The other commonality is extreme measures with which the two regimes went to to try. Try and stamp out forms of expression that they disagreed with the Shah's reign was sort of marked by a very pro western approach. That didn't really take into account a lot of traditional values so there was even a period of time when The Pahlavi Dynasty wanted to to outlaw the job entirely whereas under the Islamic republic. They've kept the the Ajab Mandatory At a time when you know increasing number of women don't want to have anything to do with that they wanna live and dress the way they wanna live and dress. They don't want to be told the they can't express themselves or present themselves to the world in any particular way so I think that those those are ways that they were. We're both not very representative of its population So let's skip forward a little bit in the timeline past the nineteen seventy nine revolution and to the eighties. How did the relationship between the US S. in Iran evolved from there the eighties were really tumultuous time in this relationship and a big part of that was the fact that Iran and Iraq or embroiled roiled and a eight year long war? We'll be he. Saddam Hussein thought that the Islamic republic was weak and that he had an opportunity to extend his borders into Iran so he attacked Souza's basically looking for Moorland. Just wants to take over and you know it was oil producing region and he thought it made sense. The wreckage of an Iranian jet fighter shot Donovan Iraq in the war that shaken the whole Gulf region and the wider world beyond the fighting begun by Iraq threatened to involve other Gulf states states and even the Americans and the Russians who both have deep rooted interests in the region and quickly. This this turn into protracted war with you know battalions of of Trench Fighters Hindi hand combat for For eight years AH along with bombing raids in both capitals and it was. It was a mess. Chemical Warfare Attacks Neither Lee Hsien Humana Loretta over. A million people died in in this war in the ugly realities that everybody supported Saddam Hussein right including the US especially US right. There's a very famous picture of of Donald Rumsfeld and Saddam Hussein shaking hands that they really poorly right. So we've we've sold Saddam Hussein all sorts of weaponry to fight against Ron and then little by little when the chemical weapons attacks began we were selling gas ask to Iran. I mean you know. It was very very callous and sort of nasty war where everybody in the rest of the world took advantage of the situation to make a buck but it left those two countries in tatters and I think it really solidified at least in the leadership of Iran's mind that they could not have a relationship with the United States because the United States had sided with Er mortal enemy ooh In the end the lines were were they were when when the war started. The only difference was the cities were destroyed. Roydon and many people died and I think that the appetite for continuing that war among the people was over in the midst of that in the midst of lingering tension between Iran and its neighbors and in July of nineteen eighty eight In a really horrific incident the US worship the US Vincennes shutdown civilian Iranian air flight flight. Six five five from its normal more out in Bandra boss which is southern city Iran to do by killing two hundred ninety people cruise passengers. Everybody else onboard ooh. I'm mortified that I hadn't known about this. I hadn't heard about this until honestly like a few days ago but what actually happened happen. I mean this is the. US shot down a civilian plane. The official line at the time was that it was mistaken on the radar for For military the plane headed towards the official response by the US has been a woefully underwhelming. I guess would be the word I mean. There's never been unofficial apology. Nobody's ever been held accountable for the commander of that ship was given a special combination and he said that the. US has not formally apologized for this You know they said that it was an accident but you know. There's never been a real reckoning reparations. Were paid to families after the fact that was a settlement between the US and and those people but it wasn't as though you know there's been an official recognition that we were at fault and taking responsibility is building. So there's one one last period that I wanna get you. It is the most recent period of the last four to five years period that you have some firsthand knowledge of because part part of the Iran nuclear deal is basically what resulted in your in your released from prison in Iran. But what I mean I think we were all alive for for that and I I think a lot of people understand basically what the nuclear deal was about trying to negotiate with Iran too that they don't develop nuclear weapons but what made that deal possible and why was it important in the end even though at this point it's kind of move mostly dismantled told so I think that the the idea that we were stopping Iran from being able to pursue echo weapon is really important one but I think that a large part of that crisis if we want to call it that was manufactured in another piece of the puzzle. We never talk about was a reimagining or realigning of influence in the Middle East. Iran was seen as the aggressor around the most dangerous country. In the Obama Administration thought to themselves. We should try and mitigate that threat the best way we can. How do we do that? And their assessment was you do it by engaging them and engaging them in a process with other allies with regional allies with NATO partners with the EU in China and Russia to create create a more secure Middle East. The process though was really interesting because for a year and a half on a near monthly basis high level meetings were taking place between Iranian and American officials for the first time in over thirty five years. Hasn't been that kind of contact since the hostage edge crisis since before the hostage crisis so you know. The the byproduct of this deal was a lot of human intelligence about the power players of the Iranian regime but also about their intentions in their their needs their desires their fears. I think a lot of that for better or worse has been thrown out the window in this process and the way that the trump administration and approaches they're Iran policy. It all starts with what they call the horrible Iran deal of two thousand fifteen. But you know the reality is. It's got thirty. Seven years leading up to that of a lot of back and forth of a lot of false starts a lot of missed opportunities a lot of close calls. We should have been learning from and we have been learning from collectively so that you know any administration. Republican or Democrat could make wiser decisions vis-a-vis Tehran moving forward Jason Resign is a global opinions columnist for the Post. We are announcing additional sanctions against against the Iranian regime as a result of the attack on U S and allied troops on Friday. The trump administration announced that they're hitting Iran with a new wave of sanctions. They target senior officials in the Iranian government who US officials say were involved in attacks on two bases in Iraq and they would extend restrictions on sectors of Iran's economy that foreign nations are barred from doing business with I. The president is issuing an executive order authorizing the imposition of additional sanctions against any individual owning operating the White House Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin and secretary of State. Mike Pompeo said the new sanctions are expected to cut off billions of dollars to the Iranian government. We will continue to apply economic sanctions until Iran's stops its terrorist activities in commit that it will never have nuclear weapons mm-hmm that's proposed reports. Thanks for listening. Our executive producer is madly Koska. Our senior senior producer is Maggie. PENMAN are producers are Alexis de out. Rena Florez Lena Muhammad Jordan. Marie Smith Rennie's for NAS key and Ted Muldoon who also wrote our theme theme music. The Post Director of audio is just all I am. Martine powers. We'll be back on Monday with more stories from the Washington Post Hi I'm Lillian Cunningham. A journalist with the Washington Post and the creator of presidential a forty four episode podcast journey through American presidential history. If one of your resolutions is this year is to become a more engaged citizen to brush up on your understanding of the nation's politics then I've got a suggestion. Take the Presidential Shaw Challenge in two thousand twenty each of the forty four podcast episodes of presidential tells the story of how a former president climbed his way to the White House. What he did there? And what's different about the country today because of his time in office if you start now and you listen to one episode you'd different. US President per week. You'll make it through the entire history of the presidency by Election Day. The episodes feature interviews Smith famous presidential biographers windows writing my biography of Clinton kept saying well. You've studied his whole life. What is it you like him or not? As we go to bat and with award winning journalist the day he resigned called all of his aides and friends and family into the West wing of the White House just before we left on the helicopter. You can find all forty four episodes of the presidential podcast at Washingtonpost dot com slash Josh presidential or on any of your other favorite podcast platforms.

Iran United States Iran Tehran Shah president Jimmy Carter Shaw Jason Resign Iran White House Washington Post America Tehran Washington Middle East Saddam Hussein Martine power American Embassy official
A Fateful Decision that Led to the 1979 Iran Hostage Crisis

First Person

35:17 min | 1 year ago

A Fateful Decision that Led to the 1979 Iran Hostage Crisis

"From foreign policy. I'm Sarah Wildman and this is first person this week. A fateful decision that led the one thousand nine hundred ninety nine Iran hostage crisis. The American air strike that killed Iranian military. Commander Your custom still money in Baghdad. This month brought the two countries closer to war than at any time since the Iranian Revolution in nineteen seventy nine we begin tonight with the US. Ron On the brink and the president alerting Congress tonight the US will respond with force. If Iran retaliates drone strike the trump administration. Tonight insist Americans are safer with solo money dead but security remains on alert both at home and abroad days before the assassination Iranian back militias led an assault on the US embassy in Baghdad. They brought to mind the Iran hostage crisis of Nineteen seventy-nine violent anti American protesters attacking the US embassy in Baghdad. This this morning guards reportedly have responded with tear gas and stun grenades. This week. We look back at the decision. US President Jimmy Carter made to allow the deposed was Shaw Veron into the United States for medical treatment in October nineteen seventy-nine that decision prompted to run in protesters to take over the US embassy in Tehran hundred young young people mainly students at Tehran University of taken over the embassy. We are not occupiers. They said we have thrown out the occupiers but instead of chasing all all the Americans out of the compound the Iranians imprisoned them in a building somewhere on these grounds. They've been hostages ever since they would hold hostage fifty-two Americans for nearly fifteen months. The ordeal forever tarred the relationship between the two countries. David Kirkpatrick a reporter for the New York Times examined documents related to that decision by Carter for recent story. He concluded. The David Rockefeller the chairman of the Chase Manhattan Bank at the time played a key role in the drama Kirkpatrick Electric his also author of into the hands of soldiers. Freedom and chaos in Egypt and the Middle East. Kirkpatrick is our guest this week on first person. Thank you for joining us yesterday. It's my pleasure we are going to focus on a piece that you wrote about the Chevron being welcomed into the United States for the medical care but before we talk about how that happened the Chevron was deposed in early nineteen seventy-nine. Can you tell us a little bit about his rain. And the circumstances stances that brought it to an end sure so by the beginning of nineteen seventy nine by January nineteen seventy nine to ran was basically boiling over the Shah had been previously more or less forced out of power in nineteen fifty three famously by an elected prime minister and fled the country. He was then restored in a military coup with American backing Resentment over that had never gone away away and by late. Nineteen seventy eight early nineteen seventy-nine they were riots and protests in the streets of Tehran there was a coalition of leftists liberals and religious conservatives. All out in force determined to drive him from power and the Shah himself was more or less dithering and so by January of nineteen ninety. It became clear that his rule was no longer tenable one thing that we often forget. Now is that in those early months of seventy nine when it was clear the Shah had to go It was not at all clear what was going to replace him. And whether the new government would actually be hostile to the US or not The Carter Administration broadly hope that it might be able to preserve Zurve the American Iranian alliance. which at that time was really the bedrock of American policy in the Persian Gulf and the region I mean people at that time referred to the Shah routinely routinely as the American back policeman of the Gulf? So all of this was up in the air and it I Carter tried to get the Shah to leave voluntarily by offering offering him refuge in the United States. And when did he offer that refuge in January of nineteen seventy nine I yes I believe. It was in around January. And even in February of Nineteen seventy-nine the Shah was still pretty explicitly welcomed to come to the US but having fled the turmoil in Iran the SHAWL was buying a return so we didn't want to go too far to go to the US. Looks like you're giving up forever. He tried to hang around the region. He went to Cairo so he went to Morocco. He wanted to be close by in case events moved in his favor. And in the meantime who is he closest to within the administration or the American government you know he was I. It's not entirely clear. I mean he's very close to the American ambassador. I can't think of who his the closest contact was within the administration but he was very very close to David. Rockefeller who was the chairman of the Chase Manhattan Bank which had become from the main banker for the Shah's government. Tell me a little bit more about the show on the road with his family. His children his wife. Where do they go? Oh and what are those months. Look like yeah. It was quite an odyssey because as you mentioned it's a pretty large entourage you know. He's got all the security people his retainers traveling with him from from the moment he left. Iran is a Republican political operative. Who has been sent him by the Rockefeller Family by the way what he's got this huge operation this huge household on the road? I they'd go to Cairo where he's good friends with President Sadat then he goes to Morocco. But he's told he's gotTa leave Morocco because there's an Arab summit coming in and not all the Arab governments WANNA be hanging around with the Shah and it's around that time in March that President Carter changes his mind about welcoming the Shah and and they try to send a message to him but he's got to find another place to go. They've realized that accepting the Shah into the US will look like the US glasses conspiring against the new rating governments still taking shape and anger all those Iranians in the streets. They don't WanNa do that to the Shah is no longer welcome. So that's when David Rockefeller and his friend Henry Kissinger get into the act and they begin scrambling with a team within the Chase Manhattan Bank to try to find a temporary very haven for the Shah while they persuade Carter to let him in and the places they send him include I The Bahamas and then later Mexico Mexico where they've set him up with whole household. His time in the Bahamas was especially wasteful. I think the resort that the government of the Bahamas had set up for him. Really Gouge the the heck out of the Shah and that became tiresome for the shot his entourage and at this point. Where are we in? They're running revolution. Is it becoming clear what that's going to look like. The new government is going to be. Well it's become clear by March that there's GonNa be a new government but what's important to remember is it was by no means clear at that time that the Ayatollah Khameini is GonNa be in charge or even that it's going to be a a religious conservative or theocratic government. There were people in in Washington who were worried the outcome might be left leaning. There were people on the ground who are hoping the outcome might be liberal so all of this was still very much up in the air throughout motion. Nine hundred seventy nine heading up to the eventful period of October November. So you mentioned several times. David Rockefeller before you tell. Let me that his role. Tell me about how you learned about his role. You know. It's interesting at the time. There was some grumbling on the part of the Carter. Ministration about David Rockefeller's role but it really reached my attention because somebody I've known for a while in a very different context. A guy named Charles Francis who gained national attention as has a good friend of president. George W Bush. Mr Charles Francis had as a young man worked in the public relations department of the Chase Manhattan Bag And he attended David Rockefeller's funeral a year or so ago. Rockefeller died at the age of one hundred one. And at the funeral Henry Kissinger spoke and Kissinger spoke at length about rockefellers relations with the Shah and that caused Charles Francis to dig around a little bit and it came to his attention in and he brought to my attention the fact that a trove of papers regarding rockefellers relationship with the Shah had been sealed. All these years until Rockefeller's death papers from inside the Chase Manhattan Bank and had just recently become open so I went to the Yale University archive to get access to those papers and they were. I thought really quite a revelation. These papers reveal something called project. Eagle what is project ill so project eagle was the codename. The the David Rockefeller and a handful of his top aides inside the Chase Manhattan. Bank the codename that they put together for their efforts on behalf of the Shah They call the Shah Eagle and they very much admired him and it was their efforts to find a place for him in the US to find schools for his kids to find an appropriate a state and then their efforts to lobby the Carter Administration to let him in when the Carter Administration didn't want to do that and arrange transportation for him to arrange visas is for himself and all of his entourage and really ultimately to continue advocating on his behalf even after he had come for medical treatment then left again. It was their umbrella for their whole all Shar advocacy campaign and really they. They became almost kind of defacto. American embassy if you will for the Shah was Rockefeller's coronation for that you know. He has said that his motivation was a public spirited. That here was a foreign leader. Who'd been a good friend of the the? US and it was bad faith of the US not to look out for him in his time of need that it was going to demoralize other rulers around the world who had been American allies when you read the papers it's very clear that he's getting frequent updates on the financial stakes for the Chase Manhattan Bank from the events hence in Iran and the Chase Manhattan Bank had a great deal to lose if the Shah left power. It was the main financial conduit for the the Iranian State Oil Company. It was the main lender to the Iranian government when it was running big state sponsored projects and it was the main a holder of a lot. A lot of that governments of foreign deposits so Iran had to be one of the banks biggest clients. So you have Rockefeller advocating for Chase Manhattan Bank and for the Shah CIA. But there's a dilemma in Washington as well and they're those were four and those who are against allowing the shot in who's four and who's against and why well the critical person here is president. Carter and President Carter was against leading the shot. In because that appeared to him to foreclose the possibility disability of productive relations with the new Iranian government still to form against that the main argument the argument in favour bring in the Shah was basically looked. This is our guy like Somoza in Nicaragua was our guy. We have to look out for our friends around the world remember. This is in the context texted Cold War and there were you know a pretty decent number of unsavory strongman around the world that the US numbered as its allies in the fight against this communism. You don't want to Spook all those people by turning your back on the Shah in his time of need the Carter Administration President Carter himself to this day is seen primarily as a humanitarian and in fact it became a bit of a knock on him at the time but his man on the ground. Advocated advocated for non measuring actions against the demonstrators. What did he advocate for? You know that's interesting so in the final weeks weeks of the shah's rule into Rahn President Carter sent over a personal envoy General Heiser and general heiser mission Shen has been widely misunderstood. I mean a lot of people in Iran have said Oh he was sent over to plot of couse in order to get rid of the Shah in these Rockefeller papers in these projects Eagle papers. There's there's a lot about general because he went to the Rockefeller team and he said Mr Rockefeller. You're very close to the shah. You're very close to the Shah's family. I need you to help me correct the record. I gotta get these letters to the Shah's family and I want to tell you the real story. I went over there to support the Shah my message to the Iranian generals generals and this was on what he believed was his instructions from President. Carter his message to the Iranian. Generals was killed as many people as you need to kill as many protesters as you have to as he put it in in his conversation with the Rockefeller team. He said he told the generals if shooting over their heads doesn't work move to focusing on their chests chests and the goal was not a military coup. The goal was for the military to take power to control the utilities to control the media to control all the streets to control everything in order to keep the Shah in power. So certainly there's evidence that President Carter was not sort of pussyfooting around humanitarian concerns. He was trying to do what he could in. Perhaps an ill-informed way to get the Iranian military to really stiffen themselves up and repressed the protests in order to keep the shot tower. So there's a debate about allowing the Shah in well before his medical. The crisis comes to pass but what happens to him he actually. His health begins to deteriorate. What's wrong so by the time? The medical emergency comes to light a number number of people eating ministration including Nash. Security visors a big new project. You had come around because the advocacy of Rockefeller and especially Kissinger had come around to be pre sympathetic to the idea of bringing bringing in the Shah. It turns out that the Shah had been hiding a diagnosis of cancer for some time the CIA American intelligence American diplomats. Nobody knew the Shaw is in Mexico and he begins to complain of of various medical symptoms. And nobody knows what that is and he's not forthcoming about it. He the Shah's not forthcoming about so David. Rockefeller team sends down one of their personal physicians. It's somebody who who who from New York whose expertise is actually contagious diseases. And that person goes down to Take a look see as they put it and eventually eventually comes to the realization that the shy has indeed been hiding cancer all of this time. And that's the critical moment. David Rockefeller Being David. Rockefeller is able able through his staff to get that doctor on the phone. With top officials in the State Department according to the doctor he later said Ed his conclusion was well. The shy needs tree and it could happen in Mexico. which can happen sued at has happened after it happened right away but clearly? He's very sick. What the State Department officials thought I thought they heard from that doctor and what they invaded? The president was the Shah is on. Death's door and the only place he can get. The medical attention he needs is in New York. And that was the moment when President Carter decided that he would allow shot in for strictly humanitarian reasons and very much reluctantly very much with many misgivings about the safety of the American personnel in Tehran. So obviously Americans remember the hostage crisis which went on for one more than a year and the scene of the American embassy. But it wasn't actually the first seizure of the embassy tells about the first seizure of the embassy well early early in nineteen seventy nine in February and I think this is one of the events that cause President Carter to change his mind about letting in the shah. There was a group of Radian demonstrators. Who actually actually stormed the American embassy in Tehran temporarily? Shut it down now. On that occasion the Iranian security forces responded relatively quickly quickly under the interim government and restore the embassy. You know kicked out the protesters and kept everybody safe. It was back open again in a relatively short period but from that moment on on everybody all the way up to prison Carter himself was very much aware that the American personnel in Tehran. Were at risk You know there were later. Reports that as President Carter ultimately allowed in the shah. He even said at the time. You don't blame me. When are people in? Tehran are taken hostage to the in the United States State Department did they pull back. Non Essential Personnel. After that or did they keep people in Tehran. They kept people in Tehran. The the embassy was open and functioning After that first seizure in part because the responsibly interim government had been reassuring. You know the the protesters were driven away after a short time and never ever nobody was hurt. So President Carter himself says if we let the SHY and we run a risk of our personnel on the ground in Tehran being targeted as a result according the subsequent reports by some of his aides. Yeah even as he was weighing the Shah's entry he was mindful that the American personnel at the Tehran could be at risk so now we understand American officials have come to know that the shot is quite sick. It's not an infectious disease. It's cancer he needs to be seen by a specialist. The specials to goes goes down to Mexico where the show is sitting with his family at this point after meandering from Cairo to Morocco to the Bahamas to Mexico says he actually could be treated in Mexico. But that's not what American officials here American officials here. No the only place he can be as New York City where there's the top cancer experts in the world. And so oh the Shah arrives in Florida. Tell us about the scene that you describe in the story of WHO's on board and what that looks like that arrival. What was so striking to me when I got to read these papers was the inside account from the debriefing the next morning? And the chase as Manhattan Bank. So what happened. Is The shah arrives at the airport. On a gulfstream jet arranged by the Chase Manhattan Bank. He's got his entourage. She's got a number of Iranian generals. He's got his wife he's got three big rambunctious and smelly dogs on the plane with him and as they're pulling into the the airport there's nobody from the American government there to receive them the only one there who's ready to receive them is actually an executive of the Chase Manhattan Bank. WHO's been sent down by? David Rockefeller and that executive is the one who tells the local law enforcement officials. Local customs officials the local immigration officials. That they've got a VIP on their hands. The Shah Iran is about to land so that was a complete surprise to everybody on the ground and then that executive takes charge starts barking barking orders to local officials. Make sure that nobody comes off. The plane loads himself onto the plane and they take off again for New York. Where Air Alarm Chase Manhattan? Bank operation is ready to meet the Shah at Laguardia Airport and Squire him off into a hospital. They try to stop briefly league at his Sisters Mansion. Big One place but they see somebody waiting outside then. I might be a photographer. So they scotch that and they they get him into the New York Hospital. When does the media become aware that he's there? I think almost immediately I think by the next day The media becomes aware and they're start being protests outside the hospital organized by Iranians in New York. And what's the response in Tehran when it becomes clear that the Shah's and New York Irate furious that's when things really kicked off in Iran. In retrospect it's the hostage crisis that becomes the moment when the Religious Conservatives when I took Khameini Amy is able to finally ceased power and consolidate his control over the nascent revolution. A group of Iranian students loyalty the IRA tola a storm. The embassy about a week later and as they did so they said very explicitly that they were doing this in retaliation for the admission of the Shaw into Washington. Because of course if you're on if you remember nineteen fifty-three if you remember the american-backed coup that restored the Shah to power the fact that she is taking refuge in the United States is going to have special residents for you so that confrontation becomes sort of polarizing event that allows allows the ayatollah and the religious conservatives to take power and consolidate their hold on the revolution inside to Ron and at the same time sets in motion this whole four decade naked realignment of the Gulf where the United States turns the other side of the Persian Gulf to the Arab countries in Saudi Arabia the United Arab Emirates to be their our new favourite allies and the contest for power between Iran and the United States becomes the driving force in so much around the region. I want us to go to the massive switch and we're the American alliances in the Middle East are but before we do that. Describe this period the four hundred forty four day a hostage crisis in the United States and the crisis that it becomes for Carter again looking back at that period in hindsight insight is fascinating you know during the first part of the hostage crisis. It didn't really hurt Carter politically you know. That was the period when he pioneered the Rose Garden Strategy. Satiety he looking very presidential there was a sort of rally around the flag rally around the president effect in the context of this crisis. It's only as it started to drag on and especially after a disastrous rescue attempt. You Know Carter. At what point during the hostage crisis authorized and then aborted a military raid to try to rescue the hostages by force that ended in a helicopter crash in the desert. That kill the number number American service members that was a real humiliation and in the light of that the whole hostage crisis looked more and more like humiliation for the United States and it became clearly more than the Carter Presidency could recover from. Now this was nineteen seventy nine. So we're heading into into the nineteen ninety election. The Reagan campaign was very mindful that if the hostages were released all of this could turn around overnight that Carter artor could look like a hero and instead of an endangered lame duck. He could be once again riding high so the Reagan campaign to was very mindful that card. His future was bound up with the hostages. He was in Reagan's best interest for the hostages to be released. Not under Carter correct and that gets into a very very sort of morally and ethically complicated question. You know if you are the Reagan campaign you find yourself in the awkward position of identifying your best interest with something that is not the best interest of the United States of America. You can't possibly say boy. I hope they don't release the hostages. The Greg Campaign did is invent the term October surprise. So the Reagan campaign. He deliberately started collecting information and spreading rumors about the possibility that the Carter Administration might arrange the release of the hostages before for the election deliberately for political reasons right. They serve as floating rumors. That suggested there was going to be some kind of a pay off some kind of a deal. Some kind of a trade to get the hostages out for Carter's benefit so that they were. The Reagan campaign were effectively. Preemptively tried to discredit a hostage. Release to sort of arm themselves against it. Who in the campaign was doing that? Disinformation so Richard Allen who was a foreign policy adviser to the campaign rain has acknowledged that he was more or less the architect and implementer of the October surprise or Antioch over Surprise Strategy. He's talked publicly including to me about the campaign's efforts to try to gather that information and spread it around to try to preempt or forestall the political damage image from hostage release. It's also clear from the Rockefeller papers. That William Casey who was the Reagan campaign manager and later the CIA director was part out of that effort and in fact the hostage crisis goes on there some notes that show. The the Rockefeller team was involved in gathering information through through their own sources. Around the world. Through the Chase Manhattan Bank and then sharing that information with the Reagan campaign as part of the Reagan campaign's efforts to get ahead of a possible. hostage release. The shot comes to the United States for medical care. But it doesn't stay here. Does he know the Carter Administration Bucking Advocacy Z.. From the Rockefeller team makes clear that the Shah can't stick around and he eventually finds his way back to the first to Panama and then to Cairo where he dies in nineteen eighty but the legacy of his time in the United States seems to linger on. It certainly does. How do you think things might might have been different? If Carter had simply not decided to allow the shot to enter the United States will. Isn't that fascinating question. I think we have to say day working from the inside outward Carter might well have gone on to win a second term. The Reagan Revolution wouldn't have happened happened. And it's possible that the ayatollah and the theocratic regime in Tehran may never have consolidated their power. You know many many people will say look I. In retrospect those were the most powerful forces maneuvering on the ground. They use the hostage crisis but they would have taken power anyway they would have found something else to be the precipitating event. The fact is the hostage. Crisis was the pivotal moment. And had there been no hostage crisis. We don't really know how events inside aside to ride would have unfolded see you feel that. The hostage crisis was very much precipitated by even took place because of the decision Asian by the Carter Administration under much pressure to allow the shot in for cancer. Care well yeah. Because that's what the Iranian students students said when they were seizing the embassy so you might say well. In retrospect we see a lot of other factors there. And that's true but you can't discount the fact that the people who took the hostages said at the time they were taking the hostages because the Shah had been led into the United States. I mean that's clearly a major factor. Obviously hey this is all now forty years ago and I wonder how large the hostage crisis looms in the minds of Americans and Iranians these days. How big of a factor do you think the hostage search crisis remains in terms of the relationship between these two countries? I think at this point. It's a big factor in the US. You know I think in the A popular discourse in Iran. They're still at nineteen fifty three. There's still remembering the American role in that coup. They're still talking about kermit. Roosevelt the CIA am who took credit for it later but for the United States that experienced the four hundred forty four day ordeal of the hostage crisis the humiliation humiliation of the helicopter crash out in the desert the yellow ribbons that we all war the nightly newscasts that we all remember that is still very resonant and we see it when president trump is talking about attacking fifty two different sites inside of Iran as a former retaliation and the number fifty the two he links to the number of hostages. You mentioned that. The decision of the Carter Administration to allow the to the United States the hostage crisis itself the the Iranian Revolution taking place as did and the realignment of US relationships in the region Turkey a little bit about that realignment. What takes place? Where is is that shift and how? How does the United States go to being at odds for the last half century? Well you have to consider it. One of the seismic events in the shaping of the modern Middle East you know the. US had invested very very deeply and almost exclusively in a military. The military partnership with Iran. Remember In nineteen seventy nine. The American military partnership with Egypt. Not yet taken place. The Camp David Accords. I had not yet taken place so obviously Israel was a very close ally but Iran believe it or not was at that time considered kind of a soft oft ally for Israel in a sort of enemy of my enemy is my friend logic. If Israel was squaring off against the Arab countries then Iran Persian country with its own Arab issues Hughes was a natural partner for Israel and that was the world at the start of nineteen seventy nine and since that time all of that has been fundamentally reversed I the. US In its efforts to counter Iran and protect the flow of oil out of the Persian Gulf has become closer and closer and closer to Saudi Arabia. The United Arab Emirates threats and the other Arab Gulf monarchies on the other side of that body of water and Iran instead of being a friend Israel and France has become its principal enemy in the region so the whole structure and pattern of the American alliances in the region and the politics of the region in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight has been completely reversed and the two events nineteen seventy nine the hostage crisis and the camp. David Accords really are at the center of that. So obviously we were talking about trump. A great deal because of the strike on Costume Sulejmani but I'm curious about how the Obama Administration's Iran nuclear deal fits into this history of animus and difficulty between Iran. And the United States. You know in many ways. I think that nuclear accord was an attempt to undo the legacy of the hostage crisis. I mean people off the record. People around the administration will often say look if we just woke up today and we looked at the Persian Gulf. Maybe we are. Most natural ally might be Iran if it hadn't been for the hostage crisis and that legacy and all that animosity. It doesn't make sense for us to to be in such an existential conflict with Iran at the cost of all of our other policies around the region and the nuclear accord was in a way an attempt to break out of that dynamic to at least take the nuclear threat the potential threat off the table but also to offer offer the government in Tehran. Some incentives to try to become less of a pride try to become more integrated into the international community. I think what we're seeing now now is in a way not just a reversion to norms but almost a reversion in one thousand nine hundred seventy nine. I mean what we're what we're we're seeing now in the new trump administration conflict with Iran since the killing of Qasim Sumani is a a level of animosity on both sides. which feels like it's November? Nineteen seventy nine right. After the hostages were taken one of the things that struck me about the trump decision. The trump administration decision to renege on the Iranian. Nuclear deal was the anxiety over humiliation. I'm curious about whether or not this is much about humiliation. And about the honor in some respects it is about actual military tactics on which side the Ryan inside of the United States side. I guess both I mean I think for sure the Iranians hide. I mean there was a great deal of talk about the delicacy with which the Iran nuclear negotiations took place and how there was a lot talk about making sure that people felt respected. You mentioned the helicopter downing in nineteen th the the failed rescue attempt And one of the things that happened there was of course. The bodies of those downed American operatives were not treated honourably. And I'm curious about that. The ways in which countries dishonor each other and how that plays a role an escalation. Well I think what we're really talking about is the legacy of history on both sides that these memories of the past slights are hard to walk away from it. It's difficult to simply shake hands and forgive and forget after you have memories seared in the public consciousness of either country than TV three coup in the case of Iran or the hostage crisis and those bodies ladies paraded through the streets in the case of the United States. So obviously there's A. There's a sort of tangled legacy here that we're talking about. One is the very specific legacy of the Iran American relationship and the way in which allowing the Sean to the United States the rise of the Iran revolution the radical rupture between in two countries that hadn't been allies And then the other is around American support for a thorough Teheran's and for dictators and I'm curious about how this legacy and the the legacy of our actions on the ground on behalf of the have a repercussions to this day. You know it came up great deal when I was the Cairo Bureau chief for the New York Times and covering the Arab spring American policy makers were again and again and again preoccupied with the American experience of the Revolution in Tehran in Nineteen seventy-nine. Nobody wants to be President Carter. Nobody wants to be accused of allowing a friendly strongman. A friendly authoritarian to fall and watching an unfriendly revolutionary power. Take hold and I think if people look back and understood would that in fact Carter done his best in a way to get the Iranian military to prop up the that almost revises the way that legacy is understood and clearly that legacy continues to cast a major shadow over American policy-making as the government looks out towards the foreign allies around the world. David thank you so much for joining us. Today it's my pleasure David Kirkpatrick. He's Porter for the New York Times. And the author of into the hands of soldiers freedom Adam and chaos in Egypt and the Middle East. First person is produced by me. Sarah Waldman along with Dan Haggerty are editors Rob Sachs and our executive editor for news and podcast Suzanne. Ephron if you like this episode please subscribe then come back next week. We'll have a new episode

Teddy Bears, Rhinos, Safari and Everywhere Else: A Conversation with Daniel Scheffler

Ridiculous History

41:48 min | 1 year ago

Teddy Bears, Rhinos, Safari and Everywhere Else: A Conversation with Daniel Scheffler

"This episode is brought to you by the Rolling Stone Charts Rolling Stone as the definitive outlet for all things music bringing you the latest news interviews and reviews rolling stone is your go-to source to learn everything about groundbreaking breaking artists and now rolling stone is going even further to show you what it means to be on the rise introducing the rolling. Stone Charts and interactive set music charts that offer an in-depth in the moment view of the biggest songs John's albums and artists in music the rolling stone charts are the definitive guide for trending breaking in popular music in the age of streaming his at rolling stone dot com slash charts or search. Rs Charts the ridiculous histories of production of iheartradio welcome to the show ridiculous historians thank you as is always for tuning in you could be anywhere in the world. You'd like to be but today you're here with us. I'm Ben Call Me Ishmael all right. You see what I'm doing there. Yeah ishmaelite whale. White Rhino just turn US making a connection there do my best how you doing Ben. I'm I'm doing pretty well. I'm doing pretty well. I am excited for today's episode. A speaking of rare animals we are joined as always with a a very rare and brilliant creature indeed our Super Producer Casey peg rim. He's like a gilded bird that you know you just want to see fly away. The actually is GonNa flow in a good way spread his wings and is GonNa do that about halfway. Through this session. He told us not to be concerned when he gets up and has to scoot out to another engagement. He's very considerate of any possible. Abandonment abandonment issues yeah but no you and I have a special guest today. We're not alone in this. Endeavour aren't least we won't be when Casey abandoned and so we are joined with a very special guest the friend of ours a friend of the show and host of our own travel podcast everywhere a ridiculous historians. Please welcome Daniel Shuffler Helu. Well let me just tell you when and Casey leaves. I am happy to tell you where he's going. I'm not gonNA tell you now. I will tell you when he leaves because I know exactly where things go and we maybe even don't so this'll be a surprise for us all at scale look forward to it Daniel. Thank you for so much for joining us on the show. Tell us a little bit about everywhere will i. I have to tell you that you did tell your lovely listeners that they could be anywhere but really they should be everywhere. Haha what I did there ishmail absolutely right so the show came from this place where I was really frustrated with travel as an industry promoting it in ways of just being either luxurious all backpacking and I felt that there was no in between I also felt that they would just all these endless lists of places to go eat here five best Baas Baas Celona ten best coffee shops and Melbourne like who can't Google can tell you that like you don't need a season travelers. Someone who's dedicated their life to travel to give you that so I wanted to create a show that was about inspiring people not want to do where to go but really how to be so termini. My producer have gone on this incredible journey of finding this donations that I have memories of incredible trips. I've been on and turning it into this. It's kind of narrative story followed with interviews with people doing incredible things high and low so there's you know famous people but there's also the baggage handler from Laguardia ample on my show so it's come from that place of Lake travels for everybody whether you're going to Disney springs dish springs with a you going to Denmark. It doesn't matter what matters is how you are doing this so that's really the kind of essence of the show in it's been like the greatest story of my life creating this in another thing you mentioned it being sort of about how to be and you have a set set of commandments that you sort of spouse as sort of like the I guess the mission statement of this show. Can you tell us a little bit about those. Well you know I felt that gaunt apparently needed ten and I just didn't think that ten would be enough for me so I- rallied up a bunch mall and the commandment saw a sort of way of holding the episode in a a kind of wink way absolutely people think that it come on with US necessarily religious religious but in this context they nantes it's tied to like a little bit of ethics and a little bit of moral imperative and I want people to take it with a pinch of salt out of course and you throw it out with your luggage and I use it as a guideline because it helped enrich my travel life but they not in the negative all my commandments on the positive thou shalt thou shalt shut the Cup and learn something small thou shalt be generous and that's been so incredibly beautiful on all my journeys when I think about these things. Sometimes they funny. Sometimes they've heart wrenching thing but it's the way of trampling that opens your mind and this this is fascinating to me. I personally enjoy the commandment idea and I I love that you hit on the fact that they are all positive role positively framed their vow shouts and I think people see travel is aspirational at times but if we're being honest good travel is inspirational right right and in your career as a travel writer you've been into over one hundred twenty countries. Is that correct that is correct. I have been doing this for a little while. I started off as a little boy. My parents big travelers and I started as a little boy my phone trip that I have a memory of a clear memory memory of was to Marissa's and I went to an aquarium and lost my favorite Teddy Bam and the story in my family in the kind of joke that started from that was I have been searching for the teddy bear ever since and one hundred in twenty seven countries later. I'm yet to find it but I have found everything else including myself so that's what travel has done for me. I lost something in I lost. I guess a pot of myself and in order to find myself poetic this leads into something that we wanted to speak with you about now for any listeners who are for some reason not yet aware of everywhere worked. We we want to give people a little bit of background. Daniel you are you are from South Africa's that correct well. I linked to say that I was bone in Africa GEICO and bread in Europe and now choose to live in America so I was I was born in South Africa. What's amazing about The name South South Africa is that some people don't know where that is. I think it's sort of obvious but I love to point it out. Though South Africa it's in the southern part of Africa Continent Africa the southern part of this continent Africa and yeah I I was born in in the capital and I grew up sort of more in Europe and also South Africa and I now I now live in America but I have a attendance for South Africa as so many people who go it gets under your skin whether you killing animals like Teddy Rosenfeld or whether you're colonizing whether you're kind of pondering about your your place there it is a very special special place because it's the beginning of humanity. It started there. Yeah whether it's Mrs Plaza whatever latest foots footsteps saw bones they found it all started there and I think that it's undeniable when you arrive them and some people behave in this fascinating way and I guess this is where you find that history so in ridiculous is that some people arrive in Africa and all all they want to do is protect it and build conservation rounded and hold it dear because that's how they understand the beginning of life beginning of humanity and then there's the other side of people who go and all they wanna do is take it and own it and control it and it's fascinating. It's interesting because we're talking about today is sorta somewhere combination of the two right so Teddy Roosevelt and his main claim to fame as far as we're concerned as a country a largely is that he was the twenty six president of the United States but he was also a well known outdoorsman and considered himself one of the great conservationist Sionist but the way he chose to exercise this conservation Wiz a little interesting and we're GONNA get into that but he is also what the teddy bear to go full circle here was named after right. That's that's correct knowl- Yes e- Teddy Roosevelt has a complicated relationship with animals. He's a fan of the safari. Some of our listeners may not know that the teddy bear that you search for that set you in your journey. Daniel was likely invented in honor of President Theodore Roosevelt's back in nineteen. Oh two to Theodore Roosevelt is on a bear hunting trip going back to what we said hunted animals in a place called onward Mississippi and everybody else in his group had success finding in hunting bears except for our boy Feo Roosevelt so so his assistance a corner a bear a real bear black bear and they tie it to a tree and then they summon Teddy Roosevelt to the tree. The bears tied up and they say okay here you go. We found you a bear. Go ahead and shoot. It and Roosevelt says no way that's unsporting. That's not fair. That's not how oh nature supposed to work. I'm not gonNA shoot this. Their first of all assistance tied bear to tree that is buried the lead there my friend these were some burly assistance since one thousand nine hundred and a black bear grizzly okay so there's a little baby. He's even less sporting right. Yes so teddy was having none of it so what happened. Here's what happens decks. So the media of the day loves the story. It spreads like wildfire throughout newspapers of note. They love the fact that he was returned. Downturn turn on the opportunity right. It was seen as a noble thing to do and when people started circulating the story the president of the United United States refuses to shoot bear. This is great. Pr Right there is a political cartoonist who comes into play a guy named Clifford Berryman Clifford Berryman reads an article in the paper about Teddy Roosevelt being a class act or at least not shooting cornered tied animals and he makes a cartoon satirizing the president refusing to shoot a bear. It's right. This is an audio podcast. We you'll have to trust us. You'll have to look it up and it's it's Teddy Roosevelt in his out in the field hunting gear and when this cartoon publishes The Washington Post on November sixteenth of the same year nineteen nineteen o two it inspires a guy named Morris Mitcham to make a little bit of coin off. This you see more says wife rose made stuffed soft animals. He owned a candy shop. She made stuffed animals could combo good great combo. You know peas carrots right there and more says you know what rose why don't you make a stuffed bear toy bear and will dedicate it to Teddy Roosevelt and we'll call it wait for it. Can you guess yeah I can but I want you to say a teddy bear nice so this piece of history. What's interesting is this one little story ends up becoming this this fundamental a piece of your origin story. Daniel and it also leads us to look more closely Teddy Roosevelt himself who as we he said was a complicated figure you and Noel and I were talking off air about this fascinating story of from the Smithsonian that you would send us you would help us to this called Teddy Roosevelt's epic hunt for a White Rhino right. Isn't that insane this man who so who known for what he's done for conservation is also in Africa hunting I guess at the time those animals would not has extinct all kind of needed to be protected as much as they are now but he he wrote executive orders that he got into trouble full all to protect forest and wildlife across America in fact some of these executive orders established a hundred and fifty million acres of reserved resolved forestry. He's a legend I mean I have been more interested in Roosevelt than before because I I heard Elizabeth Warren. Mike Candid did talk about how she loves him. That is her favourite president so I've been reading about him and kind of getting into his thoughts about almost all things but what I do find fascinating about that piece about the white wine is he meant well. He didn't know well in some way and that really is the African story you know. China's is kind of moved into into Africa and taking land developing land and it's amazing what's happening they giving people opportunity but at the same time they they leave and they take all this incredible natural resources with them so there's a shield in a sewn story. That's always been the African story and Teddy Roosevelt represents them until then problems. It's human nature to hate problems but why is that after all problems inspire us to mend things bend things things make things better that's why so many people work with IBM on everything from city traffic to ocean plastic new schools to new energy eighty flight delays to food safety smart loves problems IBM. Let's put smart to work visit. IBM DOT COM slash smart to learn more even today you know when people complain about hunting there is a certain amount of hunting that actually funds you know the the purchase of hunting licenses that money actually goes into wildlife conservation so it's a very interesting dichotomy and that's very much the same with Africa even today a lot of the big game hunts go into providing you know resources for some of these underserved underserved communities so it's a little bit interesting to kind of have to reconcile killing a noble creature with potentially saving them or their habitat and an and on in Roosevelt's safari the one involving the White Rhino they also were aiming for what they saw as the greater good right the bigger picture picture. They believe that they weren't out there just for fun just for giggles right. They thought they were conducting a safari for the purpose purpose of science which in many ways they weirdly were so roosevelt actually it was the last year of his presidency. He's a lame duck president in nineteen nineteen o nine and he was really hot to get out to Africa and do a safari so he floated this idea to a guy named Charles doolittle. Walcott Walcott love the name. It's a great great name who was in charge of the Smithsonian's Natural History Museum and they they didn't at the time have particularly robust collection of like taxidermied wildlife which is very much thing and it remains very much a thing today at the Field Museum in Chicago for example at the time Nineteen eighty-nine they were regularly sending out expeditions to these parts of the world to kill and stuff if these creatures and put them up in display. There's even I can't remember where I saw it but there is there are certain natural history museums that have like these libraries almost than in cataloged carcasses of different birds that are taxidermy stuff. They're not put on display. You can open up the drawer and there's like this bird carcass in there and their cattle catalog catalogue like library books. It's very strange but this is absolutely a thing and teddy. Roosevelt says all right. Walcott you guys are kind of like you know asleep at the wheel here when it comes to getting an awesome collection of these creatures that I personally believe are going to be gone soon another weird dichotomy which will get into he knew that they they were. GonNa be gone and yet he was still totally okay with contributing to that by killing hundreds of them yeah and Wolcott says cool because not only is this an amazing mazing opportunity for him to get some specimens what a PR coup right. I mean this is like literally famous type of person that could provide these specimens soms to him so they'll have like an extra add value right. Bam Yeah Yeah exactly so Theodore Roosevelt. We have some of the correspondents that he wrote to Charles doolittle do Little Walcott in just a quick excerpt here. I think gives us the lay of the Land Roosevelt says as you know I am not in the least a game butcher. I do who like a certain amount of hunting but my real main interest is the interest of a funnel naturalist funnel. Fau In L. Flora Fauna and then he says now it seems to me that this opens up the best chance for the National Museum to get a fine collection not only of the big game beast but of the smaller animals and birds of Africa America and looking at it dispassionately. It seems to me that the chance ought not to be neglected and then he goes on and explains that he plans wants to publish a book and then he will use the proceeds from the book to pay for a safari that he and his son Kermit Roosevelt. This episode is full of amazing name. Love them all that he had his son. we'll take they're going to take this safari to Africa to the African continent and they are going to attempt it's to capture as much big game again extensively the ways freezing it is not for some thrill of the hunt but is for the it's for the education of the masses right the greater good and this this Daniel I would I would defer to you you know here here in the states dates when kids grow up in the US you only hear about hunting in terms of like hunting deer or something right you don't really really in this country here about safaris or these big game expeditions and I I'm just curious when people who've I've never been honest with our even been to the continent of Africa when we see depictions of big game hunts in fiction or safaris you know in films homes and stuff. Is that in any way accurate. Is this the thing that still happens. Was it something that just happened. You know in days of your no in fact the trump children often go to Africa to hunt animals so it is still happening in fact recently a lion trophy was approved for import into the US and these things are still happening because tourist operators somehow manage to get around the rules they all of course incredible countries like Botswana where it's outlawed and not allowed but it is is happening. People like to kill its pot of all very humanities not we we establish ourselves insist on this planet in a way that we have have to kill to survive. So why would we be changing. You know we evolve but perhaps we don't fully evolve pasta these things so. I think there is still a fun fact if for some people but it is a real problem I think that Africa hasn't dealt with this particularly well because where there's money anything can be bombed and even nature and I recently interviewed the CEO of Conservation International in their quest is to look at conservation in new ways and to open up compensations and next week as climate we he can New York and I think it's important that we do look at what's the real important issue for all of us so the question really is is nature important onto like. Is it truly important to you and I don't think we have a unanimous thought process on that because to some people they ready to Yvonne Man's Elon. Musk is fixing that for us and for other people. This is the one life I get. I could live it up who cans so. I wonder if nature's truly important to you in a someone who's from Africa I I grew up looking at the stuff more critically because I was aware of it because my parents on big safari goes as if my husband would tell you that they on safari all the time if you need to speak to Daniel's parents they'll be on safari and part of of that as its conservation awareness my parents really take that very seriously and so do I and I think places like Singida two in Tanzania in Zimbabwe and South Africa and now in Rwanda a really really taking the safari experience to next level so not not only is it not the proverbial out of Africa Meryl Streep Experience. It is also one where by going your contributing to having nine hundred full time anti coaches on the reserve If you buy a villa in at Zinke to in Tanzania you are obligated to pay a monthly or yearly fee in order to contribute to anti-poaching and I think that that's spectacular and more places should be doing this. I've also been on safari in India and it's a very different thing they have much respect for the animals I went to parts of Rajasthan where the Leopard live open and free next to villages and they've never had any issues the leopard walks right up to and would never do anything because people would never kill them and they would never kill people and that's very different Africa. There's a the relationship has it's gone back so much to hunter gatherer and then to Teddy Roosevelt days yes and now to the trump junior days of hunting and when when we go back and look at Roosevelt's Roosevelt's hunting in Africa Roosevelt and Kermit. I'm just looking for excuses to say hermit win will do you think you're when when we look at this. We see that regardless of his stated aims. Roosevelt did kill a a lot of animals yeah exactly and it goes back to we talked about with Jack and miles from the daily. Xikai saw on an episode we did about Weird Flexes. We are distorted flexes. The fact that Charles Darwin again known in History Thought of as one of the great naturalists not really so much conservation but he but I I find those terms interchangeable at least in my mind that whether that may or may not be the case Charles Darwin would like eat every animal that he catalogued one of each but he ate a lot of like endangered like turtles and stuff definitely probably single handedly contributed to some of the species that he was studying becoming endangered sure sure yeah because he ate so many of them so that's the thing here with Teddy Right. He you know has a ball on the safari. he again. He's so preoccupied with this at the end of his his presidency that he admittedly can't focus on anything other than this. He's you know gathering weapons and ammunition and having maps charted and all this and all he needs from Wolcott the big ask that he's he's he's expecting from Walcott is to supply some personnel who can actually stuff stuff these creatures on demand in the field in the field and build taxidermist and naturalists who hit his job isn't to catalog. I mean he maybe catalogs the species that he kills for his Personal Little Journal entry which will read you a little bit. It's it's fascinating but he has to have professionals from the from the museum to actually do the real scientific antic work and he agrees because Wolcott knows this is a deal and a half and is not really causing a much 'cause. I believe Teddy Roosevelt financed his own trip with his own money and then because again he knew he was going to get paid back when he published this book which he did so the safari is a huge success in that he killed somewhere in the neighborhood of let's see five hundred twelve animals personally two hundred ninety hers is right between between he and his son and there is actually a fantastic article on Vox that has a page out of the book that he published in Nineteen ten one year later called African game trails and account of the African wondering of an American hunter naturalist that he lets coined his own little category here. He's not a hunter gatherer. He's a hunter naturalist. and it's the headline is list of game shot with the rifle during the trip so we've got it's like the is literally looks like a scorecard in like darts or something and it's divided by him in his son. Yeah and we've got tr on the left and K R. R Boy Kurmi on the right and Let's just go through them together. For a minute we got lion Leopard Cheetah hyena Elephants Square Mouth Nostrils Cook lived right authoress. There's the common zebra the big Zebra of course giraffe the Bongo the Bush buck. I'm sorry the Bongo yes. The Bongo Teddy himself didn't shoot anybody his son Kermit kill too. He got two of them the giant Eland. I don't know a lot of these animals them yeah. I've got to say you know not being a funnel naturalist list by profession myself. There are a couple of deep cuts on here that are new to me and you know it's so tough to try to ascribe motive or personal motivation to historical figures you know we we know only what was said about them at the time. Only what research search proves in only what they wrote write their own records so it's this is just me speaking personally. It's tough to your point point Daniel about the the idea of killing for fun that human impulse. It's tough for me to figure out how much of his his scientific interest was true. Invalid versus how much of it was sort of a facade to rationalize this. Ah this vast amount of death I mean his rhetoric is pretty yeah. I mean he says here quoted in this mental floss Article from the book Kermit and I kept about a dozen trophies for ourselves otherwise we shot nothing that was not used either as a museum specimen or for meat as as an interesting line here the mere size of the bag indicates little as to a man's prowess as a hunter and almost nothing as to the interest the value of his achievement so I mean he thought pretty highly themself and the the value of this achievement in this this expedition and it is true that the Smithsonian at the time didn't have the most impressive collection of fauna from the African continent. I believe they sent someone to explore Kilimanjaro in eighteen ninety one and they sent somebody else to the eastern Congo but those expeditions produced relatively few specimens as writers to other museums. This episode is brought to you by the Rolling Stone Charts Rolling Stone Stone is definitive outlet for all things music bringing you. The latest news interviews and reviews rolling stone is your go-to source to learn everything about groundbreaking artists and now rolling stone is going even further to show show you what it means to be on the rise introducing the rolling Stone Charts and Interactive Seta Music Charts offer an in-depth in the moment view of the biggest songs albums and artists in music the rolling stone charts the definitive guide for trending breaking in popular music in the age of streaming his at rolling stone dot com slash charts or search are s charts at this point. Wolcott of course is on board but we have to remember the there's a point you raised earlier. Daniel regarding resource extraction the idea of taking from a place. No one had the conversation at the Smithsonian in the halls the Roosevelt residents. no-one said Hey should we be taking these animals like should we be taking these animals stuffing their carcasses casses and transporting them across an ocean. Nobody said what does that mean for the people who live there you know and that seems like a problem that continues today. I think it's a big problem and I don't really know the exact solution. I do feel like they awesome progressive countries around the world like Costa Rica Rica that are really focused on eco-tourism and bringing awareness to this and obviously places like Bhutan but they small countries and I think a lot of this is much easier because of the size I think these these things are more challenging in places like China and Russia and of course America and and there's not a lawn of value put on this in this moment in our current political life in the world other things are kind of important so I wondered like what could be done. I mean I think legislation is important but I think it's the private sector. It's it's big tech that has to solve this and whether it's Elon musk go his brother Kimbal musk goal perhaps conservation international but those are the kind of voices that that's really really necessary because governments will come and change and evolve and they so slow moving but I and the U. N. is caught up in a lot of bureaucracy but but I think that these big tech companies could actually make a difference so maybe it's a call to them to be like. Let's start our own tech APP YEP. Let's call it. Teddy Free Free Teddy and we started conservation a wins campaign and what do you think I'm all I'm on board. Yeah I. I like the idea of Free Teddy do we. I guess then do we get to count as co-founders offers. We just want to be in the pictures man right. I think you you just co founded with me this. This is great this there's there's one one last thing that that we say no of course. Teddy Roosevelt went on to have many adventures and somewhere in this wide I world of ours Daniel Chef lers teddy bear is having adventures all its own and we hope that one day you too will finally be reunited. It makes me think of that part in on me where the GNOME goes everywhere and takes pictures and the the pictures we will maybe one day you'll start getting anonymous pictures in the mail from your teddy bear having adventures that would be creepy and harming the same time somehow oh. I love then Dan. That's so beautiful. I really hope that then teddy is still living on somewhere beautiful because I have have a very dear friend and she has a teddy ban cold little and he travels with her everywhere. He's always in her bag and little has a friend who wife's teddy bear called Moyen in fact at the moment they fighting but I always spend a lot of time. There's hundreds of photos does with me and little moyen all over the world so I guess I'm living vicariously living my life with my old teddy through the new new teddybears because history may not repeat but it certainly rhymes. Schorr does the right well. I have been thinking now. I'm on Teddy Roosevelt Roosevelt kick and this week at the met in New York they commissioned these incredible incredible statues by Kenyan American artist and she has done these female sculptures and she's put them in the Metropolitan Museum of Art's L. Codes they four of them and they all these sort of powerful women African queens looking out onto the world they called the new new ones will free us and it's part of the mets sort of shift in the commissioning and the natural history museums shook in how they re examining statues in particular the Teddy Roosevelt Statue which some people think should be toned down because some people have called Roosevelt racist towards African Americans and native Americans and it's fascinating thing because I think it was a different from time right like do we think of racism in the same way then as we do now probably not and he was he was a very complicated figure of course. I you know one thing we learn about history is that people are very rarely one hundred percent heroic or one hundred percent villainous. Roosevelt Roosevelt himself has some inherent contradictions. we know because he wrote these contradictory statements he said the game butchery. Torri is as objectionable as any other form of wanton cruelty or barbarity but then he also later wrote that creeping after game made eight hour veins thrill and he praises elephant poachers saying few careers more adventurous or more fraught with peril if you are keeping score of the animals calls at home. Roosevelt killed eight elephants yeah and we sort of teased at the top of the show the idea of a white whale kind of situation like moby Dick like he was in search of of this creature that he had yet to bag and that was the white rhinoceros which is a very specific species. That's much different from the very common black black rhino that he had been collecting for some time and it's it's not even the color that has to do with their difference. They're actually in different GENERA Z- so they are very very widely different the white rhino comes from the Afrikaans Word Wide W Y de which means literally wide so the name white doesn't isn't even refer to it's sort of a bastardisation an English bastardisation of that offer cons word and he did ultimately get several of these and they are currently on display in the Natural History Museum Smithsonian Institute in Washington. DC and they are called the Roosevelt Rhinos. Yes well. Do you know how to tell the difference between a black rhino and the white rhino now know how so what's funny is the major differences differences the shape of their mouths black rhinos developed a pointy lip which they use to pick up fruit and select leaves from twigs and white rhinos have a flat wide lip as you said why'd to graze on grass so that's how you tell the difference whilst you on Safari then you don't kill them. You just look at their lips. Exactly that sounds like a plan especially considering now. We have to wonder what would have happened if Roosevelt had not bagged that those Roosevelt Rhinos today the northern white rhino is extinct in the wild and I think there are only a hand few left alive what two or three now so we end today story with a look at Teddy Roosevelt that may be surprising to some of our fellow listeners he he would call it an adventure. This expedition of his is something that many people don't learn about today and that's that's a shame a Daniel. We want onto. Thank you so much for joining us today and for anyone who urines to to travel a little bit further further from their comfort zone geographically speaking for people who want to join you on your adventures as you literally travel everywhere. Where can they find the the podcast. Where can they learn more about well. It's definitely on the iheartradio APP but also anyway you get you. A pond costs we're. We're at everywhere podcast on instagram but I'm not a social media guy much so I'm all like listen to the show. Take don't see it just head. Knowledge Sita's hunt knowledge and I'll see you everywhere love. Thank you so much Daniel if you wanna find us on the social media is you can find us at ridiculous history on Instagram if you want to join our community on facebook where the ridiculous historians where you can connect with your fellow listeners and exchange memes in conversation and Ben and I even creep in there from time to time and get in on the fun if you'd like to follow us individually I am at how now Nicole Brown on Instagram you can see me you get kicked into and kicked out of various countries locales and locations on instagram where I am at Ben Bullet in a burst of creativity. I'm at Ben Bullen. HSA W on twitter thanks has always where Super Producer Casey peg room who by the way stayed the whole time made it. I don't think that was for us. I think we stay. Hey for you Daniel. He just didn't want you to know where he was going. Because I was going to reveal I should still do it. You can still tell you feel free yeah one here this. He's going to France. He's always gonNA be always popping off to France and alas. He's usually on Mike on the show today but we're having are. Are you on my on the show today I'm on. I'm on the Weird Mike Okay so it sounds might sound funky. We'll see he may or may not actually be in the show because we've got some Mike Issues in this new Studio Labus. Will Return Labus will indeed return a huge. Thanks Casey Pattern for sticking around big. Thanks to you Daniel for being on the show with us. Thanks to our accused some. You're so welcome become thanks to Alex Williams who compose our theme thanks to research Associate Gabe loser and thanks to research Associate Ryan Bearish thanks to the quiz for not dropping the end of this episode always love it when he doesn't drop enforced Christopher Haas Yoda's thanks nope thanks with some caveats and Asterix to Theodore Roosevelt and thanks to you man. I like your shirt today. Appreciate it but like your shirt too and the catty gym. We'll see you next time folks for more podcast from iheartradio visit the iheartradio. APP APPLE PODCASTS or wherever you listen to your favorite shows this episode is brought to you by the rolling wingstop charts. Rolling Stone is the definitive outlet for all things music bringing you. The latest news interviews and reviews rolling stone is your go-to source to learn everything about groundbreaking artists and now rolling. Stone Jonas going even further to show you what it means to be on the rise introducing the rolling stone charts and interactive set of music charts that offer an in depth in the moment view of the biggest songs albums and artists in Usak Jack Rolling Stone Charts are the definitive guide for trending breaking in popular music in the age of streaming his at rolling stone dot com slash charts or search R._S. Charts.

Roosevelt Roosevelt Theodore Roosevelt Daniel Africa US South Africa Smithsonian Teddy Roosevelt Roosevelt Roosevelt America president Africa producer Casey Pattern Walcott Walcott Teddy Roosevelt Statue Teddy Bam Wolcott Daniel Shuffler Helu Mike Candid
Operation Ajax Pt. 1

Conspiracy Theories

45:40 min | Last month

Operation Ajax Pt. 1

"The at midnight on august fifteenth nineteen. Fifty-three a young. Iranian colonel led a convoy of imperial guards through the streets of tehran. Their distant nation was the home of the country's prime minister mohammad mosaic. The carnal carried a royal decree. This document claimed that the prime minister had abused his powers and committed treason against the iranian. People the shaw or king of iran demanded mosaic. Relinquish his authority and be arrested. However the prime minister's power was so great that the shaw trusted only his loyal imperial guards to carry out this mission. It was a coup. The colonel and his men reached most addicts home and march tortoise. Door before the colonel could face the prime minister and present him with the decrees. Dozens of soldiers loyal to the democratically elected government appeared from the shadows and surrounded. The shah's man the ambushers became the ambush is the prime minister. Soldiers proceeded to arrest them upon hearing the news. The shah fled iran motza deck triumphantly proclaimed victory. The coup was thwarted before it even began but within a week mobs of iranians filled the streets in support of the shah dozens of tanks. Converged on mosaics. Now it was the prime minister who was arrested all while thousands of cheering running citizens greeted the shah as he returned home to his country. The monarch insisted that the love of the iranian people had forced out mosaic and return him to power but some believe that the shah success wasn't because of iran citizens at all the monarch should have been thinking the cia Welcome to conspiracy theories a spotify original from podcast. Every monday and wednesday we dig into the complicated stories behind the world's most controversial events and search for the truth. Carter roy and i'm ali brandenburg and neither of us are conspiracy theorists but we are open minded skeptical and curious. Don't get us wrong. Sometimes the official version is the truth. Sometimes it's not you can find episodes of conspiracy theories and all other spotify originals from podcast for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. This is our first episode on operation. Ajax allegedly this covert action by american and british secret. Agents overthrew iran's democratically elected prime minister nineteen fifty-three then they installed an autocratic dictator with western sympathies. This sophisticated coup involved bribing iranian officials paying protesters and even organizing false flag attacks. Some believe that operation ajax became the model for c. cia a. operations all over the world for decades afterward this week will explore the contentious oil crisis that destabilized iran and contributed to the nineteen. Fifty-three day talk this conflict. Devastated the country's economy and turned many members of the public against the government in the wake of it's chaos. Orion shaw seized power. Next week will examine. The cia's role in the coup one. Young officer named kermit roosevelt spent months. Fostering unrest in the country. He used millions of dollars in payments and bribes to tear down the government and allegedly. He berated the powerful shaw of iran himself into doing america's bidding. We have all that and more coming up. Stay with us. This episode is brought to you by. Cvs health if someone you love. Is it risk of a fall. The symphony medical system by cvs health can help support their safety at home with twenty four seven. Emergency response monitoring. It helps keep an eye on their wellbeing when you can't be their terms and conditions apply learn more about symphony at cvs dot com slash symphony or. Find it at your nearest. Cvs health hub episode is brought to you by wild turkey one on one bourbon. There's a time and place to be both but when something worse why change it. That's why wild turkey still made with the same recipe as in nineteen forty to age longer for more care with a high rye content for spicy flavor. Wild turkey is the perfect for for your fashion. Or should we say both fashioned wild turkey one. Oh one real bourbon. No apologies order on. Drizzly dot com never compromise drink responsibly. Wild turkey kentucky straight bourbon. Whiskey fifty point five percent alcohol value. You want one proof. Copyright twenty twenty one. Campari america new york new york. This episode is brought to you by xbox. Discover your next favorite pacey game with xbox game pass for pc for one low monthly price. You can use the xbox app on windows ten to play over one hundred high quality. Pc games and new releases visit target dot com slash pc gaming to start your adventure today. Today iran is a theocracy ruled by a supreme religious leader but in the nineteen forty s and early nineteen fifties. Democracy was on the rise. Though it had a constitutional monarch called the shaw his role was diminishing in the political sphere. The country was ruled by elected parliament. And prime minister but all that changed in the nineteen fifty-three day ta the prime minister was arrested for treason and held for trial. Consequently the shaw ruled with an iron fist for decades many questioned. Why the c. A. and m. i six would replace iran's elected government with an autocratic dictator but the reason was simple. They wanted its oil. Iran is located between modern day iraq afghanistan and pakistan though it was once the largest empire in the world. Centuries of invasion in corruption ushered in its decline. Iran entered the twentieth century relatively poor and dominated by the european colonial powers. This power imbalance was perfectly illustrated by the country's oil industry in nineteen. Oh eight. A british surveyor discovered massive deposits of this black gold in the western regions of iran. Soon investors from britain formed an entity known as the anglo persian oil company. They negotiated a deal with the iranian monarchy. The ca- jars and received exclusive rights to extract. Iran's oil within five years this corporation drilled dozens of oil wells and laid hundreds of miles of pipelines it built the largest oil refinery in the world on the small island of ombudsman in the persian gulf. Soon millions of gallons of crude were being pumped from beneath iranian earth and loaded onto british ships in nineteen fourteen. The british government saw the strings of a world war on the horizon. They desperately needed a steady supply of oil to fuel their navy and bought a fifty one percent share in the anglo persian oil company for two pounds. That would be over two hundred thirty two million pounds today. The british government's intuition was shrewd when world war one broke out. Britain consumed millions of barrels of iranian anglo. Persian oil company profits skyrocketed. However despite the corporation's name very little of this money went to iran the agreement between the anglo persian oil company and the iranian government only gave them sixteen percent of the company's profits. The corporation also refused to grant iranian officials access to financial records. It was likely they were receiving even less than the sixteen percent they were entitled to in nineteen twenty one. The ca- jars were overthrown by a soldier named raise khan who soon established a new monarchy known as the pahlavi dynasty. He became known as razor sharp like the regime. He deposed raises. Shaw ruled as an autocratic dictator however he also implemented many reforms he believed would improve the lives of iranian citizens. He modernized the country and outlawed islamic traditions. He considered repressive. Ultimately his goal was for iran to emulate the liberal european colonial powers especially britain. It was imperative to renegotiate his country's contract with the anglo persian oil company britain was reluctant to change their agreement. Iran provided hundreds of millions of barrels of oil each year some estimates stated that ninety percent of europe's oil at the time came from the refinery odd on and under the current contract. The majority of that money went to the british government. After years of resistance by nineteen thirty to raise a shah lost his patience he unilaterally cancelled the agreement that the jar signed decades before the british company. Now no longer had the legal right to extract iran's oil panicked. The corporation quickly sent negotiators to iran. Agree to new terms with raise shah anglo. Persian oil would now pay iran. A minimum of nine hundred seventy five thousand pounds a year about sixty nine million pounds today. This new agreement proved iran was capable of going head to head with the strongest colonial power in the world. Razor also demanded that they changed the company's name to anglo iranian oil company. His reasoning was that. Persian is what the british called them. Iranian is what his people called themselves. It was a small but powerful statement of autonomy while this was a victory for raise a shaw. The people of iran didn't benefit much from this negotiation. The lion's share of the money went directly to the shaw who's it to fund the military and buy land for himself. The shah's role only grew more complicated when world war two broke out though. Iran declared its neutrality as an autocratic dictator the shaw admired germany's nazi regime. He allowed germans to move freely through iran this alarm the allied powers greatly in nineteen forty one. The british invaded iran from the west while the soviet union invaded from the northeast together. They forced raise a shot abdicate. His throne british officials decided to place. The shah's twenty two year old son mohammed razor on the throne. They hoped that the young monarch would be docile and easy to control. they were right inexperienced in timid. The new shah wanted little to do with ruling the country instead. The job fell to parliament and the prime minister. Unlike when these institutions were tightly controlled under raise. Shaw now they had the opportunity to truly govern for the first time in the country's modern history iran was ruled by a democratically elected body reassessing. Oil rights was the first priority for decades. They had watched as their most. Valuable resource was pumped out from under their feet. International corporations and monarchs had fought over the prophets leaving little for the common people. Iran believed it was ready to claim what they were owed into do. So they'd have to go up against one of the most powerful countries in the world britain. Little did they know that this conflict would cost them everything coming up. Iran's prime minister challenges britain on the world stage high listeners. It's vanessa from podcast. When you think of a criminal do you picture a killer. A gangster a thief. I bet you didn't think it could be the little old lady down the street. Who murdered her tenants. Every wednesday on my series female criminals. Meet the unlikeliest of felons. Mothers neighbors and unsuspecting lovers with a penchant for dangerous behavior. Discover the psychology and motives behind their disturbing crimes and find out where their story stands today. But that's not all airing right now on. Female criminals is our special five part. Look at the world's most infamous fem vitol's women who were deceptive and deadly but not always villain catch these episodes and more by following the spotify original from park asked female criminals new episodes premiere weekly. Listen free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts google. If you're tuning in chances are you've got quite the imagination for the dark dangerous and deceitful. Cool for podcasts. But not so cool for your safety for peace of mind consider. Adt as the leader in home security adt provides twenty four seven rapid response monitoring from their nine owned and operated call centers. And they always put your safety. And security verse. That's why they're also taking all the necessary precautions to help protect everyone's health including contactless installation and using extra protective sanitation procedures with low flexible monthly payments. To fit your budget. Adt can help keep you and your home safe. Learn more at adt dot com now back to the story. After british surveyors discovered oil in iran in nineteen ninety eight. They spent the next four decades negotiating with countries monarchy for the right to exploit this natural resource but the new show that came to power in the early nineteen forties didn't wield the same power that his father had. The country began its transition to a democratic government. However the nation's greatest battle control of the oil industry was just beginning. The man who had lead that fight was mohammed mosaic. Mosaic was a respected statesman. Who had served in government for decades. He frequently butted heads with autocratic raises. Shaw now under the reign of the young new shaw. He saw an opportunity to shape the future of his country. The sixty seven year old politician was a fervent patriot and nationalist. He believed that. Iran needed to strengthen its democracy and limit the power of foreign nations to that end. He established the national front party. In nineteen forty-nine this political coalition had widespread support from trade unions civic groups islamic clerics and middle-class iranian workers. The national front party soon won several seats in the iranian parliament. Cementing its reputation in the months. Leading up to the formation of mozambique's idex national front party parliament attempted to renegotiate the terms of their oil contract with the british once again. The working conditions of iranian labors at the ogden refinery were at and the iranian government felt that a payment of nine hundred and five thousand pounds annually annually from the prophets of one of the world's largest fields wasn't sufficient copying the strategy of the previous shaw. Parliament threatened to cancel this contract and demanded britain pay more for the right to extract iranian oil. The company managers obliged and offered a new deal. This one guaranteed a minimum of four million pounds a year in prophets. They also promised to train. Iranians for more specialized higher paying positions debate raged for months in the iranian parliament. Many politicians especially those in favor of motza decks nationalist ideals weren't satisfied with the proposed terms. They wanted more of a voice in the anglo iranian oil company as well as the right to audit their financial records the political turmoil turn to violence on march seventh. Nineteen fifty one. When the prime minister was assassinated by a member of an islamic fundamentalist group parliament convened to elect his replacement to the surprise of everyone motza announced he would run for the position but unwind condition. The oil industry would be nationalized. This was an unprecedented suggestion to do. So meant that the iranian government would own every oil pipeline and refinery in the country. It would give them immense power and cut the british out of the equation entirely. Naturally the bold plan was extremely popular amongst iranians but when the british got wind of the plan they rushed to stop it. British officials met with the shah and demanded. He put an end to the nationalization effort. The shaw agreed to their request. He remembered how opposing british interests ended for his father. Who eventually been forced to abdicate. So the shah attempted to persuade members of parliament to lobby against nationalization but when the vote came the plan passed by an well majority thanks to moe deck and his national front party. Iran's oil would finally belong to iran citizens of tehran poured out into the streets dancing and celebrating. Mozambique was named prime minister over the course of a few tumultuous years. He become a hero in iran. But in britain he was painted as a villain since the british government owned fifty one percent of the anglo iranian oil company. The entity altogether provided the lion's share of the fuel for its navy losing control. The corporation wasn't just a political or economic disaster was a national security threat. They wouldn't let it slip away. The british foreign office sent a message to the shah and asked him to dissolve the parliament. Perhaps the shaw could overall decision to nationalize the oil industry. But the shah refused. Even he knew that standing against nationalization was more dangerous than standing against the british it could end in political suicide or worse. Assassination so the oil corporations leaders tried a different tactic. The wages of all the iranian workers at the aba on refinery were garnished. Thousands of employees walked away from their posts in protests oil production dropped but there was still overwhelming support for nationalization from the country's citizens in a brazen display of power in reply to the strike. Britain's sent five warships to the persian gulf. They weighed anchor. A few miles from aubin. Hopefully the tactic would convince iranians to go back to work. But instead of intimidating the refineries workers this naval action infuriated them even more. They were no longer going to be pushed around by the british. The time had come for them to rebel against this outdated colonial mindset over the next few days oil workers marched through the streets. Tensions between iranian and british employees were high. Several brawls broke out resulting in multiple deaths. Despite britain's best efforts they were unable to stop the swell of nationalism in iran on may first nineteen fifty one. The shaw signed decks nationalization proposal into law the anglo iranian oil company was banned from extracting the resource from iran. It was immediately replaced by the national iranian oil company. Reactions from other countries were mixed. Britain was furious but the us state department released a statement that america quote fully recognizes the sovereign rights of iran in quote. The british quickly sent an official delegation to iran in a last ditch effort to negotiate directly with mosaic. But even when offered additional royalties. The prime minister was resolute. This was about principle. The oil belonged to iran as iran fully took over the refinery. Britain ordered all of its technicians and managers to leave the country. They hoped that the inexperienced iranians would be unable to operate the oil industry without british. Help motza deck sent out a call to specialists. All over the world they would be welcome. In iran and paid handsomely privately the british worked to ensure and no foreigners would be enticed by this offer but publicly. The nation still hoped to salvage the situation. Soon though it became clear that motza deck wouldn't talk to anyone representing britain so the foreign office asked the united states to send an envoy to mediate at this time. Iran was on friendlier terms with united states. They some of the us as a country that broke free of british control and gained independence. Perhaps they would listen to what an american would have to say president. Truman dispatched and on void to talk to mosaic and convinced him that operating the oil industry without british help would be impossible but american negotiators soon realized that their task was nearly insurmountable for the prime minister. The oil crisis was moral. It seemed he would reject foreign influence in iran. Even if bankrupted the country even the legitimate danger of economic collapse wasn't enough to bring them back to the bargaining table with britain. On top of this the british hadn't anticipated one new development. The iranians were learning how to run the abedin facility on their own. British leadership was very concerned about iran's possible success if the nation was allowed to fight against british interests other developing countries like china or india might the same. The situation had to be contained by any means necessary. Military leaders drew up several invasion plans these varied from seizing the island of to occupy most of western iran. They were sure that a surprise attack could overwhelm the country's defenses. The idea of a fool invasion though was not very popular. Declaring war could cause iran to ask the soviet union for help ushering in a new dangerous battlefield in the cold war instead they turn to economic warfare. British diplomats worked overtime to ensure. No one would buy iranian oil. They convinced many countries that iran had violated their contract. Its oil was technically stolen. Goods oil tankers that approached iran were impounded by the british navy and when to american companies placed orders for several million gallons of crude oil. Britain asked the us state department intervene. The orders were cancelled. Despite iran's new control of the oil supply britain still controlled its customers as the economic news. Tightened britain took mosaic to court. They found a resolution with united nations security council if passed it could return power over the oil industry to britain. Mosaic flew to new york to dispute the charges himself in an impassioned speech he described how the anglo iranian company had taken advantage of his country's people romanian workers lived in terrible conditions. Earning far less than their british counterparts. Finally he showed how iran only saw fraction of the prophets. The company raked in the speech. Had a profound impact on the security council his emphatic condemnation of colonialism convinced many of the representatives in attendance that the situation wasn't as clear cut as the british so it would appear and the council decided to postpone any definitive ruling effectively leaving the oil in iranian hands. This was yet another massive political victory for mos adak. It made him a hero. Throughout much of the developing world especially in countries like egypt time magazine named him man of the year in king fifty one. The british were humiliated and angrier than ever however mosaic couldn't deny that his victories also exacerbated problems at home britain's economic sanctions were harming the quality of life for many iranians and the stream of oil money mosaic. Promised hadn't materialized. The prime minister found himself losing the support of the common people. As mos decked became less popped their with working class. He did gain support from members of another group. Iranian communists called the two day. This organization was directly run by the soviet union from moscow. They supported motza dak because his policies were causing a financial crisis within iran. The communists hoped that they could exploit this unrest in start a revolution. The two day became the muscle at mozambique's rallies and events the cheered for his speeches and fought his enemies as the cold. War raged mosaic support from the communist alarmed many potential western allies especially the united states if multidex crusade paved the way for a communist iran all of iran's oil could fall into soviet hands violence continued to escalate in february of nineteen. Fifty-three an angry mob surrounded motza addicts. After rioters attempted to break into the house and threaten the prime minister with a knife. Pose a fled. He was deeply shaken. He retaliated by having several of his political enemies arrested. This mass imprisonment shocked. The nation moses idex reputation had changed the man who had fought for democracy in the late nineteen forties. The face of free iran was incarcerating political opponents by nineteen fifty three iranians new this type of government and it's repressive tactics far too well as the months passed most deck lost support of many politicians in parliament including many from the national front. The party he created and prominent muslim clerics these religious leaders had immense influence on the devout iranian population in response moselle issued a referendum to the voters to dissolve parliament entirely. This would allow him to rule the country using emergency powers. Most this measure would also give him control of iran's military traditionally the armed forces had always been controlled by the shaw much of the military leadership was loyal to him not mosiac. The prime minister believed that this action would consolidate his power. During a turbulent time instead it appeared to be desperate. Grab for power. Mosaics measure was put to the iranian. People it passed with ninety nine percent approval. The prime minister now controlled almost the entirety of the iranian government. However after results were announced alarm spread through the country. There were many allegations that the vote was rigged. It began to look like the once. Beloved prime minister was fast becoming a dictator. Furthermore the attempted transfer of power from the shaw to dhec infuriated the populace for twenty five hundred years. Iran had been ruled by monarchs. It was a sacred institution and undermining it was tantamount to treason fact word spread that this referendum was treason. Unfortunately mosaic controlled the country. He had jailed as political opponents and the two day communists attacked any anti mosaic protests. There seemed to be few options left to the iranian people. There was only one man in iran who still had the authority to stand against mosaic. The shaw himself coming up. Iran is shaken by a struggle power. This episode is brought to you by while turkey. One a one bourbon. We'll make an old fashioned bowl. Fashioned is starts with your bourbon crafted from an authentic trust recipe the same want since nineteen forty two as longer for more character. Wild turkey bourbon. The one you can trust for delicious spiciness wild turkey makes classic cocktails with should be molded. True wild turkey one one real bourbon. No apologies order on. Jersey dot com never compromise drink responsibly. While turkey kentucky straight bourbon whiskey fifty point five percent alcohol volume one roof copyright 2021 bari america new york new york. This episode is brought to you by microsoft. Take your pc gaming to the next level with the incredible graphics placing performance and high frame rates on select windows ten from target. Then you're up with xbox game pass for pc for one low monthly price. You can use the xbox app on windows ten to play over one hundred high quality. Pc games like minecraft microsoft flight simulator or same day new releases halo infinite. You also get member discounts and deals on select games and game. Add ons the xbox game pass for pc library visit target dot com slash pc gaming to browse windows ten gaming pc's and to learn more about xbox game pass for pc now back to the story in nineteen fifty. Three iran was ragged with and economic turmoil. Taking control of the oil industry from the british came at a great cost the country was in financial. Freefall and violence was breaking out in the streets of tehran in response prime minister mohammad mosaic consolidated power by dissolving parliament and attempting to strip iran shaw of his military authority while this allowed him to keep control of the government infuriated. Many iranians saw mosaic turning into a dictator needed to be stopped motza. Decks opponents rallied. Around the shaw those who supported the dynastic leader argued that under the iranian constitution. He had the power to dismiss deck and install a new prime minister with the stroke of a pen. He could end the crisis. Newspapers printed articles that called on the shot to exercise authority in get rid of the despotic mosaic pro shah demonstrators filled. The streets and clashed with today rollers but the young saw was reluctant to get involved. What was it that could just his orders and then the monarch might find himself in prison or even in front of a firing squad but eventually his advisors and his western allies convinced him that unlike the prime minister he could end the oil crisis and bring stability back to iran the conspirators formed plan in absolute secrecy desha drafted to firmin's or royal decrees. The i ordered musset act to stand down the second installed a new prime minister who is loyal to the shah. Just before midnight on august fifteenth a detachment of soldiers devoted to the shaw known. As the imperial guard embarked on their secret mission. They were to present these orders to motza deck and then immediately arrest him however just as he was about to be presented with the shaw's firmin's mosaic signal to several soldiers hiding in the shadows to surround the shah's men and arrest them. Someone had betrayed the shaw and alerted moses to the impending coup. The prime minister new the imperial guard was coming for him and laid his own trap. While the informant's identity was never discovered. It's likely that the information came from a two day spy. This development made it clear that mosaics government had the full support of the communists and in reply western powers. Like america denounced the prime minister's actions they feared the two days would convince mosaic to ally with the soviet union iran would become a communist state. But they were powerless to act as mosaic prepared to retaliate against the upstart shaw. Had around seven. Am the next morning. Mozambique announced on the national radio station that there had been an attempted military coup. He claimed it was backed by the shaw and his treacherous british allies. When the shaw heard of this coups failure he immediately fled the country with his family. He wasn't sure if he'd ever be able to return to iran as news of the attempted. Coup spread furious promos debt crowds filled. The streets led by two days communists. They marched to parliament square theron city center. Crowd wrap chains around statue of raises. Shaw wants a symbol of the pahlavi family's influence in iran. It was paul to the ground. The monarchy's reign had ended or so it seemed soon this writing and destruction spread throughout the city. Perhaps because the violence was being committed by his supporters. Mozambique didn't allow the police to interfere. Tehran was thrown into absolute chaos as the violence spreads so too details about the coup iranian soon learned that mozambique had disregarded direct orders from the shah angered many especially military leaders. The shah was seen as a symbol of iran. Far older and more sacred than any prime minister sentiment shifted if mosaic didn't have the support of the shaw. His rule was illegitimate prochell supporters poured into the streets to counter the two day lead. Mobs the violence escalated suna foreign nationals. Were caught in the crossfire. The us ambassador went to mosaic and told him that american citizens were being harassed by the mobs the prime minister breaking point. Something had to be done before. Iran descended into complete anarchy mosaic. Told the police to crack down on the rioters. He issued a decree that banned all public protests and demonstrations and finally he told his allies including the two days to stay home. This final request would be a fatal mistake. While the pro mosaic crowds retreated the shah supporters. Did not on. August nineteenth nineteen fifty-three they stormed through the streets of tehran unopposed. They seized radio stations and broadcast messages. That denounced mosaic. The two day realized that mozambique's government was on the verge of being overthrown. Some called moscow for guidance however the soviet union was undergoing its own crisis. Stalin had just died and his supporters. Were busy jockeying for power. No one had time to think about iran. A few today leaders went to mosaic directly. They asked for weapons to combat the pro shaw forces. The prime minister refused. He'd never arm political party. Under any circumstances in the streets of tehran the military mutinied against their officers and joined the chaos the majority of them supported the shaw. Hundreds of soldiers surrounded motza. Idex home inside. The few elements of the military still loyal to the prime minister prepared for a siege. They barricaded the doors and set up. Firing positions a pitched gun battle erupted in the streets raging on for over an hour then. The attackers cheered as tanks rumbled through tehran and surrounded the prime minister's residence though mosaic supporters. Were heavily outgunned. They continued to fight. Meanwhile shaw loyalist smuggled general names. I hate to ron's main radio station. He was the man that the shaw nine prime minister in his royal decree even as motza idex house remained under siege. He declared victory on the airwaves. You called for the shaw to return home shortly after zahedi broadcast the attackers broke through and stormed the prime minister's residence. They found that mozambique had fled at the last moment. The victoria soldiers looted the residents and set it ablaze. The new prime minister quickly brought order to the city. The destruction was mind boggling. The conflict leftover hundred people dead. Nearly one hundred and fifty of the casualties alone were from the assault on mosaic. Home in the meantime. The shaw landed in rome. He expected to apply for asylum. Certain he could never return to iran instead. He was informed that the people had risen up and overthrow in mozambique. On his behalf they invited the exiled king to return to his throne as the shah celebrated his unexpected victory motza. Dhec ran for his life. He knew he couldn't evade capture forever. If he was discovered by a mob he would shortly be killed. He called generals. Id and arrange to surrender peacefully. The mosaic governments was officially over on august. Twenty second nineteen fifty three. The shaw made a triumphant return to tehran greeted by cheering crowds in a radio interview. He promised to repair the country and hold mosaic accountable. For the damage he caused the shah ordered that the former prime minister be charged with treason mosaic vehemently denied these charges in a fiery defense. The elder statesmen proclaimed his only crime was nationalizing the oil industry and freeing iran from british tyranny and the verdict was a foregone conclusion mosaic was found guilty however given his age and pass service to our on. His sentence was relatively lenient. He was to be imprisoned for three years. Then remain under house arrest for life. Others weren't so lucky. Sixty of mozambique's most vocal supporters were shot and broadly the national front party and the communist today party were banned from iran. Their members were marginalized and imprisoned as the shaw tightened his grip on the country. Well parliament was reinstated. The shah was careful to ensure that all future prime ministers were loyal to him above all else. He also installed a new secret. Police force called savak which aired it out political opposition to his reign however like his father he worked to modernize iran and build closer ties with western allies especially the united states negotiated iran's oil contracts with foreign investors this time the stakeholders consisted of an international consortium including several american companies. Under the new agreement iran would receive fifty percent of oil industry profits though iranian auditors would still be capped from meaning any accounting records to the rest of the world. It seemed like mosaic. Paid the price for being a nationalistic hardliner. He refused to negotiate with britain which brought on devastating economic instability for the iranian people. As the prime minister's power became questionable. His constituents rebelled. They chose the shah to lead them That might not be the truth. Many historians and government officials have evidence that events in iran in the summer of nineteen three were manipulated by shadowy figures. They claim that the coup wasn't the will of the iranian people at all it was at the hands of the c. i. a. next week we'll take a closer look at what really transpired. In iran in the summer of nineteen fifty-three what appeared to be spontaneous. Revolution may have actually been engineered by western intelligence agencies in efforts to reclaim the oil industry. That mosaic nationalized which sets up conspiracy theory number one britain held secret talks with american officials. Convinced them that mosaic needed to be removed unless the cia intervened orion might fall to communism conspiracy. Theory number. two is that president. Eisenhower approved a secret. Cia plan called operation. Ajax to stabilize most decks government where leads directly into conspiracy number. Three operation ajax changed the course of iranian history on an unprecedented political scale. If not for the program. Iran would be a liberal democracy. Today will dig into the evidence and see what truth lies behind each of these theories. Thanks for tuning into conspiracy theories. We'll be back next time with of operation. Ajax of the many sources we used. We've found all the shah's men by stephen kinzer to be the most helpful in our research you can find all episodes of conspiracy theories and all other spotify originals from podcast for free on spotify until then remember. The truth isn't always the best story and the official story isn't always the truth. Conspiracy theories is a spotify original. From podcast executive producers include max and ron cutler sound design by dick schroeder with production assistance by ron shapiro carly madden and freddie beckley. This episode of conspiracy. Theories was written by evan mcgahey with writing assistance by nicholas ward and mckinsey. More fact checking by bennett logan in researched by bradley klein. Conspiracy theories stars molly. Brandenburg and carter roy.

iran shaw britain Iran iranian government british government national front party mohammad mosaic iranian parliament Cia tehran shah parliament Shaw Britain us state department
The Friday News Roundup For October 5, 2018

1A

1:17:07 hr | 2 years ago

The Friday News Roundup For October 5, 2018

"Support for this podcast and the following message come from internet essentials from Comcast, connecting more than six million low income people to low cost, high speed internet at home. So students are ready for homework class graduation and more now they're ready for anything. This is one a. happy Friday. I'm Joshua Johnson in Washington. Judge Brett Cavanaugh supreme court nomination. Now comes down to one last vote today. Senators voted fifty one to forty nine to end debate over the nomination. The yes votes included three senators who are considered swing votes democrat, Joe Manchin Republican, Susan Collins, and Republican, Jeff flake Senator. Lisa Murkowski of Alaska was the only Republican to vote. No. She later told NBC news that she literally made up her mind as she walked into the Senate chamber. Now, today's vote does not necessarily reflect whether senators will confirm Cavanaugh that vote is expected this weekend. Having said that Senator flake says, he will vote to confirm you'll get full coverage on your NPR member station and online at NPR dot ORG. And by the way before we dive in today's Friday news roundup aired live at ten. AM eastern time that was before and during the Senate vote with that in mind, we'll dive into the round up the domestic. Our is up first right after this. Support for this podcast and the following message come from grow with Google digital skills are becoming more and more important in today's economy. That's why grow with Google is providing free online training and tools to help Americans learn the skills they need to succeed, learn more about grow with Google and get started by visiting Google dot com. Slash grow. You certainly had some variation of the phrase, be a man. Are you a real man? You must be gay man up. Manhood is something that's hard to earn an easy to lose. Masculinity threats this week on hidden brain man up man up warrants, a woman's job woman's job joining us this week to try to make sense of what's been going on and what may yet go on this weekend is Eugene Scott political reporter for the Washington Post Eugene. Welcome back. Glad to be here. Susan Glasser staff writer for the New Yorker and global affairs analyst for CNN. Hey, Susan, hi there, and joining us from WBZ public radio in Chicago is Steve Clements the Washington editor at large for the Atlantic. Steve glad to have you with us. Great to be with you, Joshua. Let's back up with Kevin off course. There were big developments in the confirmation process, including yesterday the day began with senators, reviewing the completed f. b. i. report into allegations of sexual violence in misconduct. The ones that were brought by professor, Christine, Blasi Ford. A few hours later, hundreds of protesters, including actor, aiming Schumer, were arrested at a big demonstration outside the US supreme court. The rally was against. Confirming cabinet. And as the day closed out, the judge himself published an op Ed in the Wall Street Journal, advertising his impartiality as judge and explaining why he was so volatile during last week's testimony before the Senate Judiciary committee. Let's talk about how the FBI report might influence the outcome. But first, let's hear from Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell here is part of what he told reporters yesterday flanked by other Republican members of the Senate. What we know for sure is the FBI report did not corroborate any of the allegations against judge Cavanaugh. And the second thing we know for sure is that. There's no way anything we did would satisfy the Democrats. They've always got a reason why the goal posts need to be moved further down the field farther down the field and nothing we could do, which out as five down there, Doug and you've seen it from the beginning that Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell speaking yesterday, gene, Scott, what do we know about the FBI report? I mean, what we know about what was in it, what wasn't in it and how it was received by senators on either side of the what we do know that how people responded to the investigation varies greatly based on the side of the out that they fall on. We certainly saw Senator Feinstein communicate that she just thought they investigation was incomplete and therefore insufficient and not getting to the bottom of what it was that was concerning her in lawmakers like her. And then we had Susan Collins who was pleased with it and who. I think voters are looking to hear from more later on today who will therefore try to share more about why she felt the investigation with sufficient many of the people that wanted to testify or share their stories with the FBI. Literally dozens were not able to get in contact with the FBI and definitely felt left out of the investigation. And so how much information this includes just seems to be not clear and therefore insufficient and most people paying attention. You know, we really don't have any public sense of exactly what was in it. There was one paper copy of the report that senators had to review in one room. So it was kind of intentionally kept very, very much under wraps. Judge Kavanagh published an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal, kind of defending his testimony before the Senate Judiciary committee on Thursday. I wanna read a piece of that Eugene, and I'd like to get your sense of one impact at might have if any impart judge Cavagnaud wrote quote, I testified before the judiciary committee last Thursday to defend. In my family, my good name and my lifetime of public service. My hearing testimony was forceful and passionate that is because I forced fully in passionately denied the allegation against me. He goes on to write quote. I was very emotional last Thursday more so than I have ever been. I might have been too emotional at times. I know that my tone was sharp and I said a few things I should not have said, I hope everyone can understand that. I was there as a son husband and dad. I testified with five people foremost in my mind, my mom, my dad, my wife and most of all my daughter's unquote. I know we have to pause in a moment, but you gene, do we have a sense that this op Ed will have any impact on the outcome? He certainly is hoping so. And that's in part because the conversation for many lawmakers shifted away from the sexual so allegations to his temperament, and I think what he was trying to explain that this was an exceptional moment for me. I actually do have the ability to display the even tone that it is that many people are expecting of me. If given this opportunity. And so perhaps he was hoping to sway some fears whether or not it actually will or not, we will. We will see soon. The president's been pretty vocal about this whole process in the last few days has been for some time, but it's been turning increasingly negative as the weeks go on on on Tuesday, the president held a rally and took the opportunity to mock Kavanagh's accuser, professor, Christine, Blasi Ford and question her account of events, thirty six years ago. This happened. I had one beer. Right? I had one beer. Well, you think it was? It was one beer. Good. How did he get home? I don't remember. How'd you get there? Remember, where is the place? I don't remember how many years ago was it? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. What neighborhood was that? I don't know where's the house. Upstairs downstairs we're was, but I had one beer. That's the only thing I remember. And a man's life is in tatters. A man's life is shattered. His wife has shattered. His daughters are beautiful, incredible young kids. They destroy people, they wanted to strike people. These are really evil people. Part of what President Trump said to supporters at a rally in Minnesota on Tuesday, Steve Clemens. We should note first of all, what the president said is untrue. Professor Ford did not say that the only thing she remembered was having one beer. Ironically, she said, the things she most remembered was being laughed at by Brett Cavanaugh and his friend Mark judge who was allegedly in the room when this happened. So there's a little bit of irony with the crowd laughing at her over the president's account. So we should clear that up. But I wonder more to the point whether or not the White House has addressed those remarks. Look. I was on stage just on the other day with Kellyanne Conway, asking her about these, the president's temperament and about her own revelations, about sexual assault that had happened in her life and why she chose to share that. And and she acknowledged that she didn't choose to share that. It just came out. The president's behavior is something that makes many people around the president United States today extremely uncomfortable. They have at the beginning of this process, we're trying to be respectful to say that Dr Ford needed to be heard and listen to that. There were important issues there and the president broke out of those constraints, and we're sitting is sure Susan Glasser, and Eugene will will comment as well in a very extrordinary moment where many Americans and their experiences at that have gone through with many other sexual assault victims in the past who've kept quiet and said this way, even Susan Collins who's now probably. In in a position to vote in in favor of of judge. Cavenaugh has has said you people do not talk about this. These are the the most under reported incidents. And I would like to add just two genes comment about Kavanagh's Wall Street Journal op-ed. That was written for one person that was written for not Donald Trump who was written for Senator flake. Senator flake at the Atlantic idea at the Atlantic festival. This this week said that we could not have the kind of temperament that cavenaugh showed on the supreme court. He says, we cannot have that on the court. We just cannot, and he was referring specifically to cavenaugh going after Senator after Senator after Senator after his very emotional opening statement. And that was a message to give flake cover to also for cavenaugh. So we're sitting here where people are walking away from the allegations and the tumult that many women and their partners and other supporting them feel about this being shoved under the rug right? While other. Are getting essentially fig-leaf send passes to be able to vote for cabinet. Yeah, he did have a lot of very sharp exchanges with Senator Amy klobuchar and Patrick layhee and dick Durbin and many of the Democrats question last Thursday, few more quick questions, and then we'll we'll keep going. Let me get to some of your comments as well. Virginian in Washington DC rights, democratic obstructionism, Merrick, garland, and Susan in Gainesville. Florida asks what on earth is the rationale for only one copy of the report of forty five pages being provided for review by one hundred senators. Susan clearly a lot of things for voters to carry in there. Not at all distant memories. When they go to the polls in November, go to the polls next month. Do we have any real hard, reliable sense there? Any evidence of how much this may affect the midterm elections? I mean, a lot of what voters vote on in the midterms doesn't have to do with what happens in Washington. Sullivan does. A lot of it has to do with what happens at home. So we have a sense of what the balance is looking like right now. Well, look, first of all, it does depend in fact on how this ends. And there is an interesting argument to be made that if Cavanaugh is confirmed, it's much more likely in a way to somewhat fade as an issue for Republican voters while becoming an enormous rallying cry for Democrats. And conversely where he'd go down, especially in such a spectacular fashion. So close to the election, there's already a sense and President Trump clearly feels this, which is why he's been Jinding up his his voters over the last week on this. He, you know that we're having ought to go down that this would outrage and in rage Republican base voters in a way that could prove beneficial, especially in some of these key Senate races in which is already taking place largely on a favorable to Republicans playing field this fall, what's unusual about this divisive fight? We've had many divisive fights before. It strikes me that this is coming so close to a midterm election, therefore, injecting a volatile note of uncertainty with just weeks to go to the election number one. Number two, it is a cultural war being ignited, arguably among Democrats and Republicans while both sides I, I wrote last week about the two America's that would listen to the very jarringly different accounts offered by Dr Ford and Brad Kavanagh and would process this hearing in a completely different way. We've all watched that playing out over the last week. Each political tribe in our increasingly tribally divided culture has a whole different fact set a whole different narrative, a whole different argument to make it's inflaming passions on both sides. Republicans have made a lot over polls in recent days showing that Republican voter enthusiast and which had been very low, very turned off in this midterm election year. Has sparked upwards over the last week. You could argue, well, that's just the the election getting closer noise. We're not sure how much it has to do with Kavanagh, but but my guess is that you know for different parts of the country, this works entirely differently politically. Let's move on to some of the other big stories that may news this week, including with immigration policy, roughly three hundred thousand immigrants from El Salvador. Haiti, Nicaragua and Sudan have gotten a temporary reprieve after the Trump administration threatened to revoke their temporary protected status or TPS this week, a federal judge in California put the administration's plans on hold for. Now, if the plan does eventually go through hundreds of thousands of people with TPS will be forced to leave the US over the next year. Eugene temporary protected status is one of these things that protects folks from other countries who come to the US under exigent circumstances. Like after the Haiti, earthquake, people who came to the US from Haiti were kind of insulated. Immigration enforcement because they came here as a result of of a natural disaster. For example, give us a sense of the Trump administration's argument for removing this TPS and how the court reacted to that. What we haven't heard much about it this this week given everything. But we know on Wednesday night, a federal judge, put a hold on the administration plans to stop renewing illegal status of of about three hundred thousand people from these countries and and all the four countries that we were talking about were already set lose this status. And if the immigrants who lived here for years, don't have the sense, they can risk deportation. I think it's just consistent with the president's policies related to emigrants in decreasing the number of people in this country coming from other countries because they're still plays into the idea that the Konami is is being taken. Jobs are being. Operated by. I'm sorry, the jobs are being occupied by immigrants from these places that are taking jobs from Americans and many of many of the people in his base, despite the fact that unemployment rate, it's as low as it is still believe that it could be lower if immigration policies were tighter? Yes, Steve, it's kind of what I was wondering about as well in terms of where this fits into the larger debate around immigration policy. I mean, you have the wall. You have limiting certain kinds of eases limiting legal immigration. This TPS thing to these all locked together as part of one larger immigration policy or do they kind of point in different directions. Now we have a sense that the administration wants to not only create a physical wall in the south, but a metaphorical wall around the nation and and to walk away from what the legacy of American success and what America is in my in my view, America has been in a way the world's brain drain challenge that the best and brightest minds in the world have come to the United States. Studied in American universities been here. Even at that higher end, the administration is raising doubts and casting itself against that sort of immigration. But I think broadly refugees and others, when you look at the evidence, the evidence is very clear that startups that businesses that get created in the United States are overwhelmingly from those that have come into the country recently from immigrants. And so we are undermined. What I find fascinating about this particular Edward Chen judge chanted the district court is he not only raised concerns about the racial bias and national origin bias that he sensed in the administration's actions, but he raised what who is being harmed that he went to various states in gathered in this a sense, there would be an estimated one hundred and thirty two billion dollar negative impact on on GDP, which is to look at the contributions of the of of these three hundred thousand other folks. And so I do believe to answer your question clearly it is. A part of the administration's efforts to throw up a wall around the United States and to move America out of that position of being a place that benefits from immigration and those come into this country. Earlier this week, the Senate passed the final version of a sweeping package of laws to deal with the opioid crisis in the US. It passed on Wednesday afternoon, ninety eight to one. The Bill also aims to change a rule that prohibited Medicaid from covering some patients with substance abuse disorders, Steve Clemens. Let me stick with you for. Can you give us a sense of what this Bill would do and what some of the timing might have been behind passing it now? Well, I think partly they want to reach out to communities that are in high stress. I mean, when you look particularly at at non urban communities, this is a play that many are are dealing with. And so I think it's when I, when I spoke again to presidential counselor, Kellyanne Conway to hear her enthusiasm for this legislation. I believe the administration thinks they need to. To do this in just before the elections, but it's it's, as you said is noncontroversial. It's ninety eight to one. We had Mike Lee of Utah's. The only opposition vote in this case and it creates an expanse, a a number of thirties that reauthorize is all the programs for, you know, sort of blanketing of various efforts to move forward on kind of responding on opiates because it is we have communities around the United States feeling like they're hemorrhaging. I have an east eastern shore of Maryland. We have a drive by the by the sheriff's by the hospitals by others, working out in in Kent County, queens county, places like that. But that's being replicated around the United States of efforts to highlight opioid response. So there's both the substantive side, but politically, this is one of the items that's writing very high for people who are feeling like they have no options and no support. If you checked out the New York Times this week, you might have seen the results of its year long investigation. The investigation revealed the President Trump received more than four hundred thirteen. Eighteen million dollars from his father's real estate empire. That would be no big deal except that the president has routinely claimed, but he only got a million dollar loan from his father and he's claimed this a lot. It has not been easy for me, and I started off in Brooklyn. My father gave me a small loan of a million dollars. I came into Manhattan and I had to pay him back and I had to pay him back with charge. Eighty dollars. I've dated back and I built a company that's worth over ten billion dollars, which is a pretty good return. Very gave me a very small loan in nineteen seventy five. And I built it into a company that's worth many, many billions of dollars with some of the. It was Brooklyn and queens real estate, and it wasn't a great fortune. But now what they do is they build it up like all he left Donald buddy. I set it off with one million dollars and now with over ten billion dollars. But that's only one piece of the investigation. Also according to the times most of that four hundred thirteen million came via tax schemes designed by the Trump siblings to deceive the IRS, some of them involved exploiting legal loopholes others according to the report where flat out tax fraud, Susan, this story is a little complex, and I think for some people, it's just a political roszak test. Oh, I knew that Donald Trump was crooked. Oh, I knew the New York Times eight of Donald Trump, but what's the key takeaway of this? What are we really learn? Look. There's fourteen thousand words an eighteen month investigation an extraordinary eight page print special section of the New York Times. It suggests that reporting old fashioned reporting facts. Truth can be assemble even if only a great cost in, you know, this universe that Kellyanne Conway, Steve's interlocutor called alternative facts. Well, there are still real facts. And ultimately, I think a lot of the rage that you hear around Donald Trump is around the question of whether he's ever gonna face accountability. If you can just lie with impunity as he has done over and over again, you pointed out on this issue of the one million dollar loan from his father as apparently he and his family worked together according to New York Times to create a vade the law systematically and purposefully. That's not something that the New York Times normally accuses anyone of an unvarnished language never mind the president of the United States. So I. It's been overlooked a bit in this cavenaugh fight. It's an extremely important investigation that's worthy of everyone's time, or there are other big questions that are still out there when it comes to the president's tax history, we still don't have his tax returns provided by him. For example, I was going to say, that's the biggest question. I mean, the reality is this was done over a believe. Eighteen months has happened since you know, the piece was published or perhaps the research and we still do not know they're more questions than answers because many of the answers could be provided if we actually had the tax forms, which Sarah Huckabee Sanders pretty much gave us reason to believe earlier this week we have should not expect. The reality said, this is not an area that Trump desires to be transparent about and many of his supporters. Don't demand that he is. I think there are people who have noticed how much wealthier he has gotten since getting in the White House in regarding specific businesses of. Hits some of the hotels have been rented out by international organizations, perhaps wedding to curry favor with the administration. And I think there's some people who are concerned about how that could influence policy foreign policy specific. Well, it's been four years since the fatal shooting of black teenager Lachlon McDonnell by officer, Jason Van Dyke in Chicago. This week marks the end of that closely watched trial has the jury deliberates. We're keeping an eye on the verdict come. We'll keep you updated on any developments on that before we continue with around up a quick word about next week, the black lives matter movement, which they Lachlon McDonald cases definitely caught up in focuses on police shootings of African Americans, and one of the most prominent voices in that movement will join us next week. Derail McKesson, his new memoir called on the other side of freedom appeals for police reform and remind supporters of black lives matter to keep fighting for awareness of this issue. We'd like to know what questions you have about the black lives matter movement today or questions for Duran McKesson, he tried to turn his activism into elected office when he ran for mayor of Baltimore in twenty sixteen that bid was unsuccessful. But what does it say about. Where the movement is and where should it go share your questions for activists, McKesson, you can leave us a voicemail, eight, five, five, two, three, six one, a one. A. What do you want to know about the black lives? Matter movement? Eight, five, five, two, three, six one. A one. A. You can also use our new app won a vox pop. We. You can leave us a radio quality message or check in on future topics. You'll find one vox v. o. x. p. o. p. in the app store and we will share our conversation with Duran McKesson coming up next week on one a.. Well, the vote on the Senate floor has just happened to final vote. Total fifty one. Yes, forty nine, no. And indeed as Susan said, senators, Collins flake and mansion voted yes to suspend the debate and move on Lisa Murkowski voted. No, but it seems like for the most part, this was pretty much a party line vote, Eugene Scott. I, I don't think that we really expected it to go any other way than being essentially a squeaker right down party lines. Absolutely. I think everything just leading up to this moment suggestive at even before the allegations against Cavanaugh became public. And I think there's a a larger idea that David Brooks tapped in to today in his New York Times piece about just how partisan did you dish. Oh, branch has become. We talk often about activist judges and concerned that people on the bench are not making decisions and partially, but we haven't seen that be the case for a while now. And this simply appears to be a continuation. That I mean, if I, if I may Josh one other element on this is that it was interesting to note that Heidi Heitkamp's brother tweeted that she has to look at herself every day in the mirror and thus chose to vote. No, even though he thinks it significantly increases the chances that she will lose her seat, Joe Manchin the last time there was a reasonable poll in west. Virginia's looking at seventy percent of west Virginians likely to vote support the cavenaugh nomination. So the broader side in terms of the tectonics and the parties as they look at trying to take the Senate with the Democrats taking the Senate is also hinging on this that if mansion were to be a no vote on Cavanaugh, I think it it very seriously could raise the stakes of him losing that state. So there are different. They're different issues here. One is what? What does the future prospects of the composite of the Senate look like with regards to this? And despite the many, many personal, emotional and deep issues related to the cabinet on nominations. Self and this lifetime appointment, but many people looking at height campus now in a much more endangered position. And this probably if if mansion follows through with his position on on the vote tomorrow increases the chances that he will survive in November. Susan, I would just, I mean, I think that that's our view right now, but if cavenaugh gets through as I think seems a tiny bit more likely after this closer vote than it did before because it seems to me that Joe mansion seems somewhat more likely to vote. Yes, on the nomination then we might have known going into this vote, but if cavenaugh gets through in the end, I think Joshua made this point earlier in the broadcast may or may not actually prove decisive in any of these individuals, Senate races, it's in in Alaska. For example, if Lisa Murkowski she's Republican votes. No, but the Republican governor and Lieutenant governor of her state have come out against cavenaugh there, particularly since not necessarily even. About the sexual assault charges, but about a ruling that that bears on native Americans that he made as a judge earlier in his career. And you know, so she has more political cover for example than Joe Manchin as you pointed out, strong polls in favor of him in favor of cavenaugh in West Virginia. So I just I would introduce that note of caution. And then there's the cultural impact of this women around the country have spent the last couple of weeks in an extraordinary display. I've experienced it. I'm sure that all of our listeners have to in some way of friends, friends, family colleagues, you know, parents, grandparents, I had a sixty year old woman tweet at me during the hearing last week, recounting sexual assault that she'd had that she said she'd never told anyone about. She's sixty years old. You know, this is a cultural moment that is going to affect our politics in ways that are very unclear, you know, sexual assault don't just happen to Democrats. They don't just happen to Republican. And I think that makes it very, very unclear to understand how this debate that we've had will actually affect our politics. Can we just step back for a second Eugene and just kind of think about the arc of this whole story. I mean, what a long way this whole confirmation has come, we started the debate was about, you know, Democrats, progressives being very concerned. The Donald Trump would be able to get to people on the US supreme court at all. And then with Brett Cavanaugh was about what about his time at the White House? We don't have these documents. It's very formative. Maybe we should adjourn this hearing postponed this hearing all of the the hoops that Democrats jump through and then the Christine Blasi. Fourth thing just the ark of this whole story is just it's dizzying. Absolutely. And when I think about the, I go back to the election when I saw dozens of white evangelical thousands, if not millions ho their noses to vote for Donald Trump because they really believe that he was going to get people like cavenaugh on, not just the supreme court, but the benches. Cross the board they wanted. So this is not even about just cavenaugh at. Aw. I mean, we've heard conversations about Gorsuch end this conversation as well, but it's about what will our benches to look like and what direction will the country move on certain issues and what role will Donald Trump play in it and the I, there's been a strong argument that his lasting legacy awesomely will be the influence that he's had on the benches. We did want to talk about the new law passed in California related to net neutrality. It would restore those internet access rules since they were rolled back by the FCC the Federal Communications Commission last year, the Justice department quickly filed suit against that asking the California's law which is supposed to take effect in January, be put on hold until the DC circuit court of appeals rules on net neutrality, Steve Clements give us a sense of what this would mean in terms of this fight over net neutrality? Well, California, like it has been doing on so many issues, whether it's immigration or climate change is saying, essentially, it's. Creating codes. We haven't discussed women on boards and other very interesting progressive law where California's stepping forward in passing legislation to protect as it says, the rights of those of the least powerful, the least wealthy and to make sure that that big broadband firms don't have the ability to throttle the the data and the the, the programming that people get. So net neutrality is one of those issues, which is a is a huge issue to the to the progressive base. And I think now they've they've come and do this. I think the the companies that are bringing this Ford and it's also the department of Justice, which is challenging. The law is saying that this is actually going to harm people because some of these firms have low income plans that allow people to get free data and whatnot, and it it in my personal view. I'm not sure that that's a strong argument, but it does bring back to the fore again right before an election. Net neutrality, which was a big rallying cry for many millennials and people across the the spectrum. So we have another paralysis, but but California's challenging the federal government on all sorts of fronts. And just to clarify that other love Steve mentioned, it's California's law makes it the very first in the nation to require that publicly traded companies have at least one woman on their board of directors. There have been similar laws in place in European countries for years, and this California law only applies to companies whose principal executive offices are located in California. Speaking of the Golden State, we will be there next week. One a will broadcast live a week from today from k. q. e. d. public radio in San Francisco. So we'll be doing the Friday news round up from their next week. Also, the Nobel prizes went out this week, all the laureates for twenty teen have been announced. One of the standouts was Donna Strickland. A Canadian physicist, the first woman to win the prize in fifty five years. And the third woman ever to be a Nobel laureate in physics. The first was Marie Curie back in nineteen. Oh, three, Susan's. Interesting. I read some of the reporting about her and she said she'd always kind of felt like an equal in her business, but this is still a pretty remarkable moment at a pretty remarkable time. Well, that's right. It's a reminder, of course of the incredible underrepresentation of women in science that we see. And you know, I, I felt like it was something that people could cheer about in the midst of this very divisive moment in American politics. You know, it's it. It's just a reminder. I think of, you know how very far we have to go, we're living in a country where there are more male CEOs named John women who run company, so I wouldn't declare victory just yet few quick comments on cavenaugh before we go leeann rights. I am so disgusted by all senators involved in this. It's all about winning not who's qualified, but Patrick wrote on our Facebook page. I guarantee if I was falsely accused and then people who don't know anything about the situation. We're calling me a criminal. I'd. Be ticked Kavanagh's temper tantrum was expected and excusable. Thanks to all our guests today. Steve Clements, Washington editor at large for the Atlantic. Steve. Thanks for talking to us. My pleasure. Thank you, Susan, Glasser staff writer for the New Yorker and CNN global affairs analyst. Thank you, Susan. Thank you so much and Washington Post, political reporter, Eugene Scott. Thanks, you gene. Thanks for having me. One as lead. Sound engineer is Jake cherry our digital team Gabrielle Healy and Katherine think to learn more about them. And the rest of our team visit the one a. dot org, slash staff. We'll dive into the international section of the Friday news roundup in just a moment. This message comes from NPR sponsor, ADT, America's trusted home security company can help protect you against the break ins fires and carbon monoxide. Twenty four, seven emergency response when you needed most more at ADT dot com. How often do people lie on dating apps in a robots taking over our jobs? I'm carpet Garcia, co host of planet. Money's the indicator where everyday we tell you a short story about the economy, get it on NPR one or wherever you get your podcasts. The Nobel peace prize goes to two people from two different countries for their work, helping victims of sexual violence in armed conflict. Also, a big election is coming up in Brazil. More allegations of Russian hacking vice president. Pence has harsh words for China and Iran, and first lady Melania Trump goes to Africa, joining us to discuss this and the big stories from around the world is David Sanger national security correspondent for the New York. Times and the author of the perfect weapon war sabotage and fear in the cyber age. David, welcome back to one a great to be with you. Joshua. Vivian Salama covers the White House for the Wall Street Journal. Vivian local and NPR national security correspondent, Greg, Myrick co, author of this burning land lessons from the frontlines of the transformed, Isreaeli Palestinian conflict, Greg, Greg, glad to have you back good to be Joshua America and other western governments hammered Russia's spy network this week yesterday the US indicted seven military spies with links to an Olympic doping scandal. Earlier, Dutch authorities said they had foiled a cyber attack against the international chemical weapons watchdog. Let's explain four men working for Russian military intelligence were caught trying to hack the computer network at the headquarters of the organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons OPCW. That's the group that was investigating the use of chemical weapons in Seoul's for England. That attack on the four, Russian spy and in Syria equipment was found in the trunk of a car. There was a wifi antennas hidden under a jacket on the rear shelf report suggests the set was working when Dutch security officers disrupted the attack, David Sanger, let me start with you what what's going on here? Well, what's going on here is that we're beginning to see that the DNC hack and everything that we've been obsessed with rightly so since the two thousand sixteen election was to the Russians just a small slice of how they have used cyber as the main way that they seek to disrupt and undermine not only foreign governments, but those who would be opponents of Ladimir Putin or those who are busy investigating other Russian malfeasance. So when you go across the indictment and the other data that we got from the British and from the Dutch yesterday and the day before what heads up to is as soon as you begin. An investigation into Russian malfeasance. You should expect hackers from what was formerly known as GRU the military intelligence unit of the Russian military to be at your doorstep, or in the case of the chemical weapons agency to be in the Marriott hotel parking lot right across the way and what they're doing is seeking day, get into computer systems, disrupt steel emails, undercut the legitimacy of the organization sound familiar. Exactly what they've been doing in Ukraine, what they've done in European elections and what they did here in two thousand sixteen. Great. So we have a sense of why they would want to go after these specific organizations like the anti-doping agency. I mean, Russia did get pinched for doping in recent Olympic Games, but does it really matter that much to them? Oh, I think it does. I think in in the Russian mindset they want to show, hey, you know, you accuse us of cheating. We're going to find others who are cheating. They. Released information on soccer players on the Williams sisters on a wide range of of athletes. So I think it follows very much in the way we've seen in trying to discredit the political system in the US. They went to discredit other countries athletic programs, the way they suffered all of the criticism for the doping and the twenty fourteen Sochi Olympics in Russia and the accusations that they've been involved in poisoning people around the world. So I think they're hitting back every time they're being criticized. They're being they're hitting back and the GR you this Russian military intelligence that we didn't hear about for a long time. It was not part of the old KGB which you may recall was broken up, but they've really been at the center for the past decade of of m- most or all of these big Russian hacking scandals Vivian. The department of Justice has brought charges against seven Russian officers. Scott Brady is the attorney general for the western. District of Pennsylvania, here's part of what he had to say. This is not spy versus spy. These were not passive intelligence gathering operations. This is a criminal conspiracy which caused real harm to real victims. When the g. r. u. publishes US athletes most private and sensitive medical information to embarrass our national sports federations. We are all made more vulnerable. That's Torney general, Scott Brady from the attorney from the western district of Pennsylvania. Vivian what we've mentioned this on the program before, it's almost feels like it was meant to be seen like some of this was meant to be noticed. It's if it feels very godfather to me like when there's a hit, you don't clean up the blood. You want people to see that something happened. And no, we did this and we can do worse. And this is the tactic that the Russians have used in time again, where they like to leave breadcrumbs when they do these kinds of tax and especially in the cyber realm where it might be a little bit harder to. To to detect exactly the source of an attack. You really could be completely anonymous in a lot of these cases if you wanted to be. But the Russians like to kind of Mark their territory and say, you know, kind of send a message to the world and say, we have the ability to do this and essentially put everyone on notice and on garden. So that's exactly what they've done, not just to the US but around the world. And just to clarify the title. Sorry, it was Scott Brady, the US attorney for the western district, Pennsylvania. Sorry about that is the Friday news round up with Vivian Salama of the Wall Street Journal NPR's, Greg, Mary, and the New York Times reporter, David Sanger David, you wanted to jump back just stink. Observation, I think on on Vivians point here, which is. Doing these indictments against people who will never see in US courtrooms publishing their photographs as the British. And the Dutch did is based on an assumption that there is a deterrent effect in embarrassing the Russians by revealing what they've been doing Vivians. Exactly, right. Since some of this is meant to show your power, it's not clear to me that Putin is embarrassed -able here. In fact, he made like the additional publicity that comes from this considering that there are no real penalties to him. Feign for their guys got thrown out of of, you know, Amsterdam after being caught thirty minutes into their operation. What does that tell you? It tells you that we still have not figured out the core issues of had a deter cyber attacks, and the old assumption that doing it in secret is the goal is wrong. And you know there was a moment when after President Trump met flat Putin in Hamburg a year ago, when I recount this in the perfect weapon, he came out of that meeting and he called me from Air Force One to make the point that flat Amir Putin had told him the Russians are so good at cyber that if they had done the DNC hack, they never would have been caught. It's. Vladimir Putin argue Donald Trump that that that we're so good at what we do that if we had done the DNC high, you never wanna know you never would've seen us and the president called you to tell you to tell me this and and he's since made this argument in public many times, then he called me to say. So that sounds about right. And I said, you know, Mr President, I don't think that was the intent of this hack. They published the emails of the DNC. They published John Podesta's emails. They meant to be seen did not seem ready, actually come out and push back on the notion that the Russians were behind it. He kinda casted as well. Maybe it was a patriotic Russian who did it and wasn't actually government official, and so he would sort of jump around and keep you guessing Putin I'm talking about Putin, of course is, is the source of the attack and and the motivation behind the president complied with that. And when vice president Pence. Out and gave his speech yesterday about Chinese influence. You didn't hear Russia mentioned other than to say, the Chinese are worse. I do wanna get into what the vice president said and just a little bit, but great contrast that what we just heard about the president with what we heard from Britain's foreign minister, Jeremy hunt basically saying, you know, hey, Russia. Who are you? Trying to kid has clear evidence of the Russian ministry trying to conduct a cyber attack on the very international organization whose job it was to look into those Nava chalk attacks. And why would you do that? If you want the guilty party that was Britain's foreign minister, Jeremy hunt now, spokeswoman for Russia's foreign ministry, Murray as Zakharova dismissed the allegations as a quote, delusional and diabolical perfume blend, unquote. I'm not sure I buy that, but I loved the imagery. I vary telling we don't get that a lot. It's florid what we're seeing is it incr- release of remarkable details. The intelligence agencies of western. Countries, the Dutch the British, the Americans are releasing details that we would never before see, passport numbers, middle names of the people doing this, you know, putting this out. So it's interesting the level of detail which the public generally has not seen in the past, but I think we're still sort of seeing western countries stumped on exactly how do you respond. They're showing how much material they have their naming and shaming, but how do you respond beyond that? And that's still the question were wrestling with. Maybe we can't like maybe that's what this means is there just is no effective international deterrent for these kind of attacks, at least not yet. That's a huge issue legally, the international who owns the internet. I mean, that's kind of what oil is down to is that nobody really has jurisdiction over the internet and cannot therefore like impose any legal restrictions as far as what people do, and this is something that's argued in the legal community all the time with regards to cyber hacking, Michael asks with the loss and resultant widespread dissemination of the two. Toolkit which allows one to spoof hacking from another country. How can cyber bread crumbs lead to certainty that another country is actually guilty? David? What do you think? Well, cyber attribution is something that people are getting a lot better at. Certainly there are lots of ways to make it appear that a cyber attack came from other places when the New York Times was attacked by the Chinese and it's computer systems years ago, it looked like the attack was coming from university in the southern part of the US. But the fact of the matter is that a combination of forensic evidence motive past use of similar tools can get you most of the way most of the time. So there are some pretty good ways to do it. The bigger question facing many governments is once they've found this out and perhaps decide to announce it has happened in these most recent cases, then the political pressure is on them. So what do you do about it. That's why the president signed a new set of executive orders in in August, we haven't seen them. They're all classified that pushes down into the system, the ability for commanders in the US to do cyber attacks back without having presidential sign off till. Now, that's been something that the only only the president could authorize the use of nuclear weapons and cyber weapons. Now, it's not entirely clear that only he can authorize use cyber weapons in retaliation, but you wanna make sure your attributions pretty good before you strike back, you know who to attack. Yeah, Greg Murray before we move on from this. First of all, that is no small thing that that the US military might have the latitude unilaterally to shut down a power grid or turn off a hydroelectric dam through the internet. But beyond that, do we have a sense that certain countries certain organizations are getting a better handle on dealing with cyber. Attacks the world clearly hasn't figured this out. Is anyone making progress? I think about the EU because I hear so much about internet regulations from there on a consumer level, but on a military level, is anyone making progress? Not that I'm aware of. The US I think is still the world leader in terms of, you know, advanced internet abilities and the threats are pretty clear Russia, China, North Korea Iran, but figuring out a response and how you want to calibrate that response. So it doesn't become this open ended esscalation and you don't know the capabilities of your rivals. If you respond, you're entering really uncharted territory Vivian, do we get a sense of countries beginning to kind of work together to figure this out to to figure out some kind of international response to cyber attacks or as Russia really got the whole world kind of running here on what we've seen in the last couple of days is coordination of indictments and raising concerns about spy. And otherwise, obviously there's a lot of discussions that are taking place where countries western allies trying to coordinate some kind of effort to counter this threat that the that the Russians posed. But at the same time again, you have so many restrictions and so many uncertainties as to how to approach the cyber world in general and cyber threats. As David said, the US trying to really formulate some sort of attack plan or something to counter into protect our infrastructure so that we don't have. We're not as vulnerable as we've seen ourselves in the past. But obviously, you know, the US is still trying to figure out a way forward. Having looked at what happened to us in the two thousand sixteen election. Still we're talking about the fact that we are vulnerable in two thousand eighteen. We could be vulnerable in two thousand twenty. So we haven't actually tried quite figured out how to protect ourselves yet alone, the world kind of coordinating on a global scale to do the same. It's it's, it's not an easy test, twenty kind of a deal. Decentralisation of the way that we vote that we have so many different kinds of owning systems might way kind of how it helps a lot. It helps insulate us from the fact that we've got all these different utility company, you know, but but the key element here is we've done a better job at discussing internally how we would do counterattacks. Then we have organizing the world in sort of digital Geneva Convention of what standards of what's on limits and off-limits. Let's shift gears and talk about the Nobel prizes, particularly the Nobel peace prize. The winners were announced this morning, Dr Dennis Mugabe and Nadia Murad one for their work combating sexual violence as a weapon of war. The announcement from the Nobel committee said in part quote, Denis mcquade Luqueno gay is the helper who has devoted his life to defending these victims. Nadia Murad is the witness who tells the abuses perpetrated against herself and others Murad is an Iraqi woman. She was captured and held by these laws. State escaped captivity after three months and told to her story in a book called the last girl Dr mcquaid gay founded a hospital in eastern Congo that's treated thousands of women. Many of whom are survivors of gang rape, Greg, my to pretty extraordinary people to be winning this prize, especially as we've learned more about how sexual violence is being used as a weapon of war and as for quite some time. Yeah, really has to individuals who seem really deserving. The peace prize has been a lot of had a lot of controversy in recent years. Very politicized, a couple of people who've really been thrust into dangerous situations handle that with with incredible courage and Dr mcquaid gay built this hospital in eastern Congo which is in the middle of nowhere just very remote region twenty years ago for maternal care. They're just as much healthcare that was his intent, but is the Congolese civil war. Metastasized rape became a huge issue. A huge problem. The various factions UN peacekeepers were involved in in rape there, and so he became the voice of rape being used as a weapon of war. And so he's been at this for twenty years, very prominent voice, but still operating an very dicey region of very deserving winter Vivian. I can really speak for the case of Murad who I spent a lot of time in Iraq in two thousand fifteen sixteen interviewing ZD, women who were released from captivity from ISIS and the impact, obviously psychologically physically the use of sexual assault and rape as a tool in war is obviously a huge thing. But you have to also remember that these women go back to their try to go back home. A lot of their families shun them because of cultural sensitivities to such things. And so their lives are centrally up ended by this, their families. A lot of times don't take them back home. A lot of these women were impregnated as a result of this. And had really know where to go because they were single mothers, which in Iraq is is just completely taboo. And so you know, it's something that you raising awareness for this something really, really important. You had a lot of people on the ground in Iraq trying to educate these families that this is not of no faults to the women that they have no say in the matter, but obviously changing cultural perceptions, it's it's it's an uphill battle. And so this woman, obviously trying to do that and it's a, it's, it's worth the the no- notoriety that getting. Let's shift gears and talk about China vice President. Mike Pence spoke yesterday, accusing China of trying to sway American public opinion and undermine the Trump administration to put it bluntly President. Trump's leadership is working and China wants a different American president. There can be no doubt. China is meddling in America's democracy. David. What does vice president Pence Amine by meddling? What do we know about what China actually is doing? Well, it's. Pretty fascinating, but because he is appropriate in the language of the Russian attacks from on the twenty sixteen election and transferring it over to a different set of activities that the Chinese are are involved in. Now, there's no question that the Chinese have used cyber before in for political purposes, but they largely haven't used it here. They've used it in Taiwan. They've used it in their arguments with Tabet. They've used it internally a lot. They've used it to some degree and Australia and New Zealand. But what he's arguing is that in putting together retaliatory tariffs, tariffs that are retaliating for tariffs the United States put on China, they are aiming at states and districts that are key to President Trump and therefore causing pain to workers there. And they're saying that that counts meddling. Well, if that's the case. We've done the same thing in foreign countries where we, when we impose tariffs frequently do it with a political goal in mind, you're trying to change the political baby of country. The Japanese did it to the United States, both in the negative sense with Taras, but also in the positive sense pudding, putting facilities mostly car plants in key districts where they wanna make sure they maintain some interest. So there's not a whole lot that is new here. What is interesting is that the administration is doing now a broad spectrum attack on Chinese activity today. The president is doing something involving the supply chain of parts critical parts to the military and others that the Chinese provide that was this encounter in the South China Sea are earlier this week in which has a Chinese military vessel came within. I think about forty five feet or what are you five yards actually have a clip from from. Vice president Pence speaking about this. He commented on that during his speech. Here's part of what the vice president said. The spite such reckless harassment. The United States navy will continue to fly sale and operate. Wherever international law allows and our national interest demand, we will not be intimidated, and we will not stand down. Greg Meyer, what was the big deal with this ship other than just such a close close call? Well, I think it's dad to pick up on David's point. It's it's pointing to military issues. It's pointing to political issues. It's pointing to economic issues. It's this full spectrum of of discussion. We had an interesting development this week. The Chinese ambassador sway t and Chi came to NPR. Very generous with his time to questions from reporters and gave a lengthy interview, and it was very diplomatic and talking about the difficulty of of reading this president saying, China wants to come to an agreement, but but the the president, this administration keeps changing its policy. So it was interesting to to get the Chinese read on this through the Basseterre. And he was very diplomatic most of the way. And then there were a few questions where he talked was asked about, well, why can't journalists go to bed? And he said, well, then he sort of lost it. And he sort of said, well, the altitude is too high. It would be risky to their health to go there. So we're, we're seeing a lot more at this sort of top level discussion and the. Altitude altitude apparently is, is the problem into have keeping journalists out of there maybe in what is your sense of what's behind this? I mean, you know, President Trump and China's president Xi Jinping had kind of an interesting relationship where you have China, this nation. That is definitely kind of feeling itself on the world stage and being kind of aggressive in its own neighborhood. And these two kind of frenemies in President Trump and president. She that seemed to want to have amicable relationship, but then there's all these, these tariffs, what do you think might be China's motivation here? There is something I think to this idea of dueling tariffs and this idea that two navy vessels can't come within forty five yards of one another unless they mean it. That's not a close call like what's behind this? Well, I mean, there's a number of issues and this whole thing we've seen growing since the campaign frankly, were the president then candidate. Trump used to cues, China, currency manipulation, and all kinds of other unfair trade practices. He hadn't really delved into the foreign policy sphere until really got into office, but obviously North Korea being one of the major efforts for his foreign policy agenda now and making progress with Kim Jong UN and having, you know, trying to achieve denuclearization in North Korea. He really wanted the Chinese on board with him throughout this process, and it really took a long time for him even to be able to achieve any kind of understanding with the North Koreans. And he was growing very impatient last year, asking China repeatedly to try to help in bringing North Korea to the table. Obviously, he kept on saying he'd do it on his own. He is frequently expressed his frustration with president Xi and China in general, on its lack of effort to really rain in Kim Jong Hoon in the process. And so you had that element. Of it. But then you also have the economic element of it, which is a very legitimate concern for the president, especially as we head into the midterms. This is he's, he's out there campaigning right now. This is the biggest kind of win that he brings to these rallies where he says, look at this, I'm, I'm fighting for you America's winning again. And you know, I'm I'm bringing jobs back and I'm bringing companies back to America and a big issue with for him has always been unfair trade practices with China. And this is something that his administration right now is heavily focused on as a way to try to come to terms with you, have these the two largest economies in the world. How do we sorta coexist in a way that we can mutually benefit. But in President, Trump's mind also have the Americans come out on top and so this these are the issues. So do the quick little Google search looks like highest point. It's got Everest base camp, which is seventeen thousand feet innovation. The highest. I think non Everest point is it about forty five hundred meters, which is just under. Fifteen thousand feet and elevations worth noting. California's highest point is Mount Whitney, which is fifteen thousand feet Arizona's highest point. Humphreys peak is about twelve thousand six hundred feet. Alaska's highest point. Mount McKinley Denali national park twenty thousand feet. So I think we could survive into just gas. I think I think we got like a mask or oxygen tank with some we can figure it. Let's be fair. Journalists are not the fittest group, but speak for yourself, Greg, Mary, not please don't don't don't impune me. I I would love to. I would be terrified, but I would give it a shot. Let's move on and talk about Iran after the Trump administration abandon that nuclear deal and negotiate. I'm sorry, actually, before we get to Iran one more comment, David that I'd like you to react to you regarding China, Chuck. You Farley wrote on our website, the one eight out org. Oh, it's China. That's meddling in our politics. Not the guys hacking and colluding Nova chocking that's a relief. Yeah. Well, that the the biggest problem with the pen speech. Was not what he said. It's what he didn't say. So if you go back to the national security strategy that the administration turned out in January, it referred to two revisionists powers, Russia and China. They're very different. Russia is a declining economy. It's got, you know, all kinds of of growth and survival issues of its own. But it's a huge disruptor. And of course, a major nuclear power in China, you have a rising power and you've got the classic clash between the rising power and status quo power. That would be us. It's sort of what we went through with the British one hundred fifty years ago. So the question now is, why does the administration just focus on the Chinese part of this and not on the Russian part? And that gets to all of your favorite theories about what what reason Donald Trump may have for not being critical of of Ladimir Putin. I agree with Vivian. The base issues that he's raising with China or absolutely, right? He's over invested in the personal relationship both in the case of Shizhong bang. And of course, with with Kim Jong on, let's talk about Iran after the Trump administration abandoned the nuclear deal that was negotiated during President Obama's tenure and reimposed sanctions, Iran took the US to court the international court of Justice, tech, Ron argued that the US actions violated the terms of the nineteen fifty five treaty of amity. Well, the Trump administration hit back this week, secretary of state, Mike Pompeo announced on Wednesday that the US is ending that treaty. This is a decision, frankly, that is thirty nine years overdue in July, Iran brought a meritless case and the international court of Justice alleging violations of the treaty of amity on six to challenge the United States decision to cease participation in the Iran nuclear deal into reimposed. The sanctions were lifted as. Part of that deal Arana's attempting to interfere with the sovereign rights of the United States to take lawful actions necessary to protect our national security and Arana's abusing the icy j. for political and propaganda purposes that was secretary of state, Mike Pompeo speaking on Wednesday, Vivian Salama. Some have said that ending this treaty is largely symbolic. Is that so yeah, it is. And a lot of ways I think in general, it's more just reinforcing the administration's standing efforts to withdraw from the Iran nuclear deal and crackdown on Iran and kind of show that they are not messing around. And so basically this was just one more step in that process. But as far as any real changes on the ground, it really doesn't do much. It's really just response to the international quarter justices ruling that essentially said that sanctions that the reimpose. Housing of sanctions. We're not fair to Iran bring my step back for just a second. What is this treaty of amity? I'm sure that was a question. If the State Department, I just had this vision of some, we'll level staff are going through the basement, looking treaty nature. Google. The whole thing through because we've heard about this the big acronym that JCP away via Ron nuclear deal. But what is this treaty of amity? Well, in one thousand nine hundred fifty three. The US helped orchestrate a coup in Iran bringing the Shaw of Iran back to power. They were US in Iran where buddy buddy at that time. And so two years later, it's yeah, you brought me back to power shirt, treaty of amnesty, great, and they were indeed good friends from fifty three until the seventy nine revolution. This is the shot who was deposed in these Longman revel in the Islamic revolution of seventy nine. So for thirty nine years, there has been no amity between the US in Iran. This again seems very symbolic. Just laughed little relic that somehow didn't get shredded after the revolution Seventy-nine. It was the last hurrah of Kermit Roosevelt grandson of Theodore Roosevelt CIA operative who almost singlehandedly stage. This coup. Do, and then they got everybody. We put in power to go sign the treaty port Kermit. He's getting no respect in the State Department. These a man's name is Carmen Roosevelt. I'm digging it. I, I like that name for for a man who had such a place in history Kermit Roosevelt and noteworthy American David, is there any real effect in terms of the sanctions that consequences to the US for refusing to lift them? If this treaty of amity is more symbolic, where might there be more tangible impacts to come? So the tangible impact is November when President Trump has said that he will impose the full sanctions on Iran, he's given allies warning this is coming and those sanctions if he does it as he has pronounced would say to any company around the world, but particularly European companies, if you do business with Iran, you're not doing business with the United States, and it's an effort to choke off the Iranians by making. The big aircraft makers Boeing's ready, pulled out the big oil production equipment makers all get out of Iran, and they are doing that. What's happening now though, is that the Iran the Europeans are saying, we're going to find a method to buy oil from Iran without clearing it in dollars so that the US can't affect it with sanctions. And a number of us went up and met with the Iranian Foreign Minister when he was the UN last week, and he made an argument to us. This was Saturday evening that he believed that this method was going to come together. So we're heading toward a conflict between the US and its European allies over Iran. Do we have a sense Vivian? I think I feel like the the big issue really is around nuclear program. And the argument from the other nations who are still signatories to this distill, the Iran nuclear deal is that it's, it's. Not perfect, but it's good and that it has done something to impede Iran's ability to develop a nuclear weapon. Do we have a sense of where we stand in that regard, setting the economic stuff? Aside for a moment, does this put us any closer on that path? Are we still kind of in a holding pattern, and what is that look like the Europeans as you say, they consistently say that they, they don't want to North Korea's. I mean, this is of course, before we became buddy buddy and President Trump declared that he and Kim Jong UN. We're in love we. We didn't want to North Korea's in the sense that we didn't want these two very active potentially Roque nuclear states, and so checked Iran was always going to be better than an unchecked Iran. And so that was the Europeans argument as to why the nuclear deal had to continue despite its imperfections. And so the issue is, is that as far as violations to the actual denuclearization. Does that is not something that's come up as an issue consistently, Ron has been found to be in compliance with those promises of the nuclear agreement. And so that's been a lot of the pushback to President. Trump's decision to withdraw from the nuclear agreement is if they're complying, why would you do it? So the administration has sort of catered its policy to instead really focus on destabilization efforts that the Iranians are doing in the Middle East, sending help to serious ending fighters to Yemen, excetera helping Hezbollah in Lebanon, all of these issues are what the administration underscores as the reason that Iran needs to be kept in check is that if you clamp down on Iran and the funds that go into the coffers in Iran, with the government, you know, getting rich and basically prospering off of this, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard prospering off of this nuclear deal. Then Iran is just going to wreak havoc all over the Middle East. And so that's sort of the way that they've case. Catered their argument to get around the actual nuclear issue. Greg, what happens next in this in this standoff now that the treaty of amity has apparently been torn up what now? Well, that's been the big question. The administration wants to put a lot of pressure on Ron. It's inflicting some real hurt to its economy. It's currencies falling through the floor. Its oil exports are already going down, but does the Trump administration really want to reopen the negotiations and perhaps ring out a few more concessions? And would it be willing to do that to get a a slightly tougher nuclear deal with Iran, it's not really clear. That's what they want. It's there's the clear effort to put the pressure on Iran, but just to get a little better nuclear deal is that regime change, which has been the sort of wish of every administration for forty years? What exactly does the administration want for all this pressure? It's trying to put on on regarding the Iran deal. Faisal tweeted, the US violated an international agreement done by UN Security Council resolution by Lee. Leaving the Iran deal. The deal is working Trump leaving is a violation of international law. It's been one week since seven point, five earthquake struck Indonesia sending a massive soon nominee over the island of Sulawesi and its capital pollute. The latest update from rescuers on the ground puts the death toll over fifteen hundred people. Many more are still missing the eighteen foot wave took many people by surprise. The earthquake caused the soil in some areas to liquefy causing buildings to collapse as the ground slipped beneath them. Some say part of the problem was that the Sonam warning system was out of service. We spoke earlier this week to you Louise comfort of the university of Pittsburgh. She's part of a team that's designing a new underwater soon. NAMI warning system for that area. You'll find that conversation online at the one a. dot org. First lady Melania Trump is spending this week and early next week on her first solo international trip as first lady for stop on her week. Long tour of four African nations was in Ghana. She got a tour of the historic Cape coast castle. The castle is this big four that served as a prison and an embarkation point for slaves that were sold into the transatlantic slave trade. It holds the infamous door of no return, which was the last place. Many slaves walked through before they stepped onto slave ships. She spoke to reporters after signing the guestbook, thanking her hosts for what she called a warm, welcome. A special place would never forget incredible experience. And the stories heard gentlemen, v. And. Dungeons that I saw. It's really something that people should see and experience and what happened. So many years ago, it's threat. This is also the same castle that the Obama family visited early in the presidency in two thousand nine after which President Obama said, the castle quote reminds us of the capacity of human beings to commit great evil, unquote. David Sanger President Trump has not had the best relationship with African nations. There was that moment where he referred to some of them as blank whole countries. The first lady started in Ghana flew to Malawi in southern Africa. She's in Kenya today. What impact might this trip have? He has been going out of his way to try to send emissaries ever since he made those comments. It also seems clear. He's not in a huge hurry to go himself. He did send a secretary of his secretary of state to Africa on. Out lengthy trip that was just before he fired his secretary of state that was earlier this year. What's I think been striking about Milania Trump's trip from just reading the reports of our own cars, bonded tour traveling along is she seems to be having a good time. She's doing her diplomacy by herself. She seems to be happy being out of Washington one can hardly playing or for those purposes. But she, this is one of the of the first times where you've seen her take up a pretty traditional role. First lady's role of goodwill ambassador, and finally this week, no matter where you are in the world politicians on the campaign trail, it's usually a new opportunity to set the mood to rally the crowd to drive home your vision for a better future. Usually something like this is preceded by a little bit of motivational music. Yup. Menotti. Here in the US. We stick to some favorites Clinton and Romney wheeled out this journey classic Mike Dukakis like America by Neil diamond. George Bush was a Tom petty fan with. I won't back down Barack Obama kept Springsteen basically on a loop and some YouTube as well. But if you're Britain's prime minister known for being a little stiff, little formal musical choices might be a bit more restrictive this week. You could say Britain's to resume found her Mojo. MRs may became the dancing Queen when she bounded on stage in the UK to close her party conference, dancing kind of Brexit is looming, but she wasn't afraid to make fun of her self. After previous video of her awkwardly grooving went kind of viral. At least she picked a good OB attrac- like one of these number one hits. I'm not even sure what to make of this. This seems to be a really rough time to be threes may right now to make cannot resist shaking her hips to music. She's done this before. Maybe shouldn't go so far. But you know, she's having fun. I guess that's what counts might as well might as well. Vivian Salama of the Wall Street Journal. We had fun with you this week. Thank you. Pleasure. David Sanger of the New York Times author of the perfect web. Thanks, David. Thanks for having me and NPR's, Greg, my Rico, author of this burning land. Thanks, Greg, thank you, Josh. Our senior team is Danielle night, Denise mature, Lindsay, foster Thomas and gay Bullard. You can meet more of our team online at the one eight dot org slash staff until we meet. Again, I'm Joshua Johnson. Thank you so much for listening. Enjoy your weekend. This is one.

United States President Trump president Eugene Scott Susan Senator Senate Wall Street Journal New York Times Judge Kavanagh Steve Brett Cavanaugh White House Washington Susan Collins Kellyanne Conway Russia cabinet Professor Ford Vivian Salama
Amanpour: John Kasich, Taghi Amirani, Walter Murch and Wade Davis

Amanpour

56:40 min | 8 months ago

Amanpour: John Kasich, Taghi Amirani, Walter Murch and Wade Davis

"Hello everyone and welcome to Amman for his what's coming up? It should be a party delivers a bounce and amid Kobe the first presidential nominating convention starts today online I speak to the Republican making the case for Joe Biden the former governor of Ohio John Casey then. One thousand, nine, hundred, three, the United States together with breath participated a coup in Iran. How did relations between Iran and the USA become so toxic a thrilling documentary coup fifty-three examines just how the CIA and my six overthrew Iran's budding democracy the filmmakers join me, and here we were nation. With two thousand people dying day. Discovering that we were living kind of in a failed state could covid nineteen signal the end of the American Century also, an anthropologist Wade Davis talks to hurry screen of US and about his latest work unraveling of America. Welcome to the program everyone I'm Christiane, Amanpour in London and we begin a week in which the fight for democracy is on display around the world from the streets of Belarus to the United States, where the Democratic Party is holding its national convention virtually for the first time in history while in Belarus hundreds of thousands of protesters come out again against Alexander Lukashenko. In the biggest threat ever to the man, they call Europe's last dictator they demanded do over weeks election widely viewed as rigged. It gave him a six term in office. After. Already twenty six years even his most fervent base is coming out on strike and the European Union is preparing to impose sanctions. It appears that leaders like Lukashenko or Brazil's both Naro being judged as much on their response to the corona virus epidemic as anything in the United States to president trump has been accused of failing that leadership test and the Democrats hope to capitalize on that all week during their first off a burst of a kind virtual convention, they'll be a roster of big names from the Clintons to the OBAMAS. Pelosi. And of course, the candidates, themselves, Biden, Harris but there are also Republicans in the mix, the high profile former governor of Ohio John Kasich there to make his case for Joe, Biden to four years ago he ran against Donald Trump for the Republican nomination from the key swing state of Ohio and John. CASICK joins me now from Westerville welcome to the program governor. So let me ask you why a high profile Republican is going to a Democratic convention to make the case for the other guy. Christiane. I. You know I. didn't endorse trump in the last election I was afraid he was going to be a divider and he's turned out to be a divider and I look at Joe Biden. I've known him for a long time and I don't see him as a divider I see him as a uniter and I think the very soul of our country and how we proceed is at risk here and I just been amazed and flummoxed in some sense and saddened by the Division that I see in our country and Christiane it's different. It's not just Division among politicians, but it's now division among citizens in America doesn't do very well when we can't get along and I'm disturbed that it's not just as I say the ruling class these elected officials but I see the people heading in the same direction and I don't think we do well is a country when we're fighting and I know there's nothing that's too difficult to solve if we're united and so I will be making appeal for people to put country over party and it seems like it's becoming increasingly to be able to do Christiane got to stop this. Is Interesting because you may not have endorsed trump as you said, but it's another thing to literally cross the aisle. So to speak and endorsed the party and you're not the only one, I mean today they announced former governor, Christie. Todd. Whitman as well as MEG. Whitman who once ran for president for the Republicans Susan Molinari. Former congresswoman. What do you hope to achieve a path from defeating trump? Well I really WANNA see unity again I want people to knock it off this clenched teeth communication with within families between neighbors and I want I'm trying to create a little space sometimes somebody's gotTa take the you know step out and and take the heat so that somebody can come behind him and and try to restore things I'd like to see a congress that can disagree without being disagreeable. I'd like them to be able to attack the big issues that we have in front of us issues like climate issues like what we do about the the wealth gap what we do about healthcare in this country these are things that. are very important but I also believe that change comes from the bottom up and long as we can't speak to one another or we hold it against somebody because they have a point of view that we don't have how community supposed to work how are they supposed to function? So what I'm really trying to achieve is to get people to say look I'm an American before I'm a Republican before I'm a Democrat where all made in the image of the Lord and we have to respect people we just can't cancel cancel people out. These are things that are very important. It's not inconsistent with anything I've done frankly throughout my entire career. Let me ask you this because you know everybody makes a big deal about swing states important bellwether states like yours Ohio. Last time around a president trump beat Hillary Clinton by eight points in Ohio, and now the race is slightly different. Biden has lead there. Everybody's I guess rightly concerned about reading too much into polls giving given what happened last time but please give us your expert lay of the land. What you think is going on in Ohio that very important state. But Christiane I governor for eight years. During that period you know we saw significant job growth plus we've also expanded Medicaid. So people had better health coverage mental health coverage. We've done a lot of things that we cut taxes for those on the top and also created the first income tax credit. So we had a period where it was a an issue of inclusive inclusivity. Everybody sort of felt most people felt that they were included and I I one, sixty, six out of sixty eight counties in the in the state of Ohio and I think people said why? Do, we need to change however because we've seen people in the suburbs particularly suburban, Women College, educated folks moving away from Donald Trump it's narrowing I still think trump I think he's probably still ahead he may win here but it isn't going to be a blowout election here in Ohio because Ohio has trended more Republican because of the success that people have seen on the ground one other thing. Is Interesting how does somebody go and support somebody in another party? I mean Abraham Lincoln? That book came out called. where he brought people in who he didn't agree with I mean that's what that's. What makes magic isn't it when you can pull people in and listen to him and grow and get new ideas and somehow we don't even WANNA listen I talked to a lady just before I came on the air and she said well, I vote Republican and I don't really care who the person is. The person means nothing to me it's all about the party and I didn't want argue with it because I wasn't gonNA convince her but I'm of like really is that the way we're supposed to function I don't think that makes sense. Well then let me ask you this because you know you are a conservative Republican at least you have. You. A PRO-LIFE LIFE PRO gun. Gun rights etc.. And yet you speaking on behalf of somebody who is once proper sensible gun laws and is pro choice to is used to. What I was saying, what are you gonNa see on then about the democratic, party is a big tent party that you think is right for the country right now. Know. What I'm saying is that I think Joe, Biden knowing his history and the relationship I've had with him. He's a guy think you'd get along with people that he doesn't agree with and what is essential is that we're able to come together a sit around the table. You know get to know one another and look I was involved in military reform with a very liberal Democrat by the name of Ron. Dellums he and I were extremely close I work with. Former, Democrat named Tim Penny when we did the first run at trying to balance the federal budget I was willing to work even with Ralph Nader and people in my party on the issue of corporate welfare. See when I got into Congress and even as a governor I never thought of myself as a Republican the Republican Party has been my vehicle never my master. So I I like to be able to work with people that don't agree with me or. Think like me look but I think the Democrats and therefore left is the Republicans on the far right you know it's a little too strident and I think that America exists in the middle and so what I'm trying to say is because I don't agree with somebody on everything if they can be reasonable and try to solve problems and for my party for the Republicans you know and for all really all Americans, the millennials and Gen xers are becoming majority. In this country larger than the baby boomers. So we have to be willing to accept the change that's going to come and work with those generations to tell them about the things that we think make our country successful. But the thing that we're going to go back to the Reagan years. Forty. Years ago or two ozzie and Harriet ain't gonNA work. So everybody's needs to realize that with change comes youthfulness vibrancy and we should embrace it not run away from it. Okay so I want to ask you about the actual logistics of the election. As you know, obviously, there's been a lot about mail in ballots and there's a huge Brouhaha in the United States about the sanctity of the US Postal Service. So today we learned that the postmaster general has been called and his volunteering and will testify before Congress. We hear that the Secretary of Treasury Steve Mnuchin says, some ten billion dollars will be given to make sure the postal service can operate under this extraordinary burden and pressure of of what's predicted to be. A huge volume of mail, the President says the following. Let's just play what the president said today about what he thinks about postal ballots. This universal mail is a very dangerous thing. It's fraught with broad and every other thing that can happen. And we have to be very, very careful. We have a very big election coming up. We're going to do very well and I wanNA. Make sure the election is not so. Okay so I want you to read through the lines and tell me what's going on on the one hand. He's definitely costing aspersions against the ability to have a fair election on the other hand. His Secretary of the Treasury is saying that he's going to pour ten billion dollars to stand the postal service up what exactly is going on and a you worried about the ability to have votes, cost and votes counted. Christiane era, you're a total pro and it's a pleasure for me to be with you but I and I'm glad that we talked about the convention on the upfront because maybe this is the president trying to create a distraction as the Democrat Convention starts with his people saying, yeah we can get this done with him saying this wouldn't be fair. What concerns me not just about the. Operation of the Post Office, and clearly they're gonNA need the resources and I understanding is this represents about two percent of all the mail they're going to get. But what worries me about this is the president drives it home an idea that the results of this election are tainted and you get twenty or twenty, five percent of the public that says, this was not a legitimate election. That poses a big problem for country. Now, Richard Nixon he thought that he had really not been treated in sixty and he said he wasn't going to put the country through a test Al. Gore the Democrat who lost narrowly based on hanging Chads in Florida and all that. He had his problems and he said, no I'm not gonNA put the country through that because they realize the. Legitimacy. The importance of the legitimacy of an election I hope the president will not continue to cast aspersions for me. I will tell people that you know I. Think it worked out fine and mail in voting will work and there's no evidence. It favors one party over another or that we would have fraud. I just don't buy I don't agree with it and that's all I can do. So beyond you saying that we understand that some states are trying to take legal measures or some kind of. Proactive preemptive measures to make sure that the ballots can be properly postmark probably sent in on I'm probably counted properly develop delivered. Do you have any reason to believe that the infrastructure will not be able to cope or will not that in in the in the correct way that it should be. I would think Christiane for anybody that has concerns these secretaries of state across the country. You know perhaps you need to get your absentee ballot in or your your vote in ballot and a little sooner maybe you extend the period of time at which they can count them in Ohio. I think it's ten days they have after the election to continue to count the ballots. I think the states need to get together and share best practices. Do I think at the end we'll have a legitimate election I do I do not believe this is going to be fraudulent and it look there were a lot of charges the last time. The president said that there was so much fraud and that he won the popular vote, it's just wasn't true. But you know we have a tendency in this country to take something and blow it into something big and I, just wish. That we all of us I happen to be in the media as you know as well as you would just take things with a little bit more of a grain of salt and not overreact or over hype. So president trump is taking out a huge number of ads, he's going to have public appearances appearances during the Democratic convention. I guess you know do what he does best which is. Hold the limelight he's accusing his. His opponents of being radical radical socialists how will that go down amongst Republicans and those swing voters or independence and things? Can he can you make that stick against somebody who? So well known as Joe Biden and somebody like Comma Harris whose hardly socialist not even on the left wing of the party? You know I think. Christiane that what is going to be important as for Joe Biden. To show a sense of strength, not just at this convention of course. But when he's out and about understand he's sitting for an interview with ABC News kind of an hour long question and answer. But as he goes through this campaign, he's got to convince people that he is not a pushover. He's not a sap for anybody he's not going to be overwhelmed and he's vigorous enough. To be able to carry out the duties of the Office of the president that is what I hear a lot from people. Well, you know I don't I'm not afraid of Biden but you know the hard left will take over they'll run things and he in he's not strong enough I think it's incumbent on him to be able to show that he can be in control that he is a good leader. Yeah he's older but I know a lot of people who are older. And they may not be as fast as it were thirty years earlier, but the brains work just fine and their spine is just too stiff and I think he has to show that. So that there is not this this sense that that he can't carry out the job and that will give Republicans disaffected Republicans and some independence greater assurance in would give them greater confidence to support him. That's what I think. One of the issues are. So, let me ask you final question because obviously Joe Biden vice president has to still mobilize. Certainly. Young people certainly maybe elements of the Hispanic Latino population younger black voters and you as I said, members on the on the left wing of the Party and not thrilled at a whole load of Republicans are going to be speaking at the convention. Let me read you what the nation says. Joe Biden is not going to win white men in Ohio in twenty twenty. That's your state. He's not going to win them nationally either unless John. CASICK has some plan to inspire women and black people to vote for Biden neither he nor any never trump republican is going to be all that helpful in the upcoming election. Your response. I don't really have response everybody's entitled to their opinion, and if if you know I'm sorry they don't think that I could get people to listen I. Hope I. Do my goals is get people to listen to this message and we're just GonNa have to see I guess the truth or or the truth will be in the pudding later and we'll see what effect but you know what I'm I'm pleased that I'm doing this I feel good about it. It's a matter of conscience for me and Just. See where it comes out you don't make look if you want to be a leader Cristiano. To Walk Lonely Road and I've sort of been that way mine tar life and I'm comfortable with criticism and and and praise and everything else. I just kind of do my thing based on what my friends, how they advise me and how I feel about it in my conscience and my gut, and then I make decisions and I'm happy with this one. So finally finally then are you concerned that more senior Republicans haven't done that we've had Republican strategist on people who writing books of Mayor Culpa and saying it was all alike Stuart Stevens who we had on and he's appalled that more upstanding Republicans have not come out and had an attack of conscience like you have. Well I'm more concerned. Christiane not so much about the politicians because they're always trying to measure what's in their best interest, not all of them and not always, but too much of the time. But I'm more concerned about the division I. See among the public, the families being divided friends being lost that kind of anger that's being expressed through this clench teeth. That is what really bothers me a great deal because you know the strength of our country is not the politicians. It's the people and if they don't get along with each other, then we're at a loss, we need to fix it. That's why I am speaking at that convention is part of an effort try to get that done. Governor John Casick. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank. Think about your home for a moment. It's where life happens. It's where you build that tree house or try that new recipe. It's where you rest and recharge work and play. You expect a lot out of it, and that's why home is committed to keeping your home up and running no matter what they match you with the best pros in your area pros who can get your home projects done right from. Unexpected. Jobs like appliance repairs, clogged gutters, leaky faucets to projects. You're actually look forward to like creating your very own backyard summer retreat or getting that new pool installed whatever it is they're here to help and the homeadvisor APP makes it easy use it to book and pay for more than one hundred projects with just a few taps plus if you're looking for local inspiration, you can see trending tasks in your neighborhood. So. Whether you need a last minute fix routine home maintenance or an exciting new upgrade homeadvisor is here ready to do everything to make sure everything download the homeadvisor APP and get started today. Now foreign policy hardly ever comes up during conventions, but it is a safe bet that the VEX relationship with Iran will continue to figure prominently. Biden says, as president he would restore the Iran nuclear deal. The Donald Trump has ditched our next guest filmmaker. Tacky Mirani, says that if you want to understand this poisonous relationship, you have to go further bag than the nine hundred, seventy, nine Islamic revolution back to the coup of nine, hundred and fifty three. Indeed. That is the title of this latest documentary uncovering details hidden until now about how the CIA and Britain's mistakes overthrew Iran's first democratically elected prime. Minister Mohamed Moussa. Here's is a bit of the trailer. Nineteen fifty three the United States together with Britain participated coup in. Iran. WHO's got swept from power in favor of generals hedy three, hundred, two, hundred. Seventy. The British government has never officially acknowledged its role in the coup but I don't think it's any time we really plan included up. These words have not been heard or seen for over thirty four years. Evidence that has the potential turn a dark chapter in history inside out. And Tagliani joins me now from London along with his co writer and the film's editor the famous Hollywood film editor and sound engineer, Walter Merge welcome both of you to the program. It is an amazing film. It's just just so jam packed. It's almost like a thriller that unfolds page by page down. Let me ask you first maybe not many people know about the coup of fifty three, but it's not a secret people. Historians do know the back in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, three this is what happened. What is it about the story then that you felt needed ten years of your life and work to bring to the screen? What is the you've uncovered? Well, it took ten years because there was a little research I wanted to do to get to the heart of the story. This story has been told as you sites out there. It's been told US television documentaries but never in such depth and such forensic analysis as you know the story, the coup itself is a national scar on the psyche on Iranians. It's Scott hasn't healed and every time thinks flare up between Iran and the West. Particularly in particular Britain and America that's that scab gets back for a lot of people. Iran story really begins to seventy nine and nobody knows the backstory and I'm saying to understand seventy-nine on what's happening since then under the turmoil that we're dealing with every day, you need to go to the original sin. Fifty three is where it's a lot. You need to understand that to know why we are in the state that we're in right now. The CIA. Role in it has been has been known for a long time, and in fact, the Secretary of State Madeleine Albright back in two thousand. Virtually apologized for the coup, I'm the the UK has never been publicly acknowledged the mix involvement, right? That's right. Decades you know this has been known as the CIA who on the Kermit Roosevelt Kunarac Athem shows actually started around Although as you say that Americans have kind of admitted released documents Obama's open about it. Bright. Britain has never officially acknowledged fundamental and leading role in the schools and what are filmed us the first time. Is really explode got a part in incredible documents amazing performance by Ray fines as the missing. Am I six operator who we've now revealed an indeed telling his own words from his own interview transcripts. So addressing that and we are shedding new light on this pivotal historical event. So let me turn to you Walter Merge then on the issue of ray fines and how he came to play a cameo role. In this film, you obviously have a an amazing amazing body of work the English patient apocalypse. Now, godfather to I think and on and on and on. You're the one I think who's instrumental in getting refined into this documentaries that Greg Walter. That's correct. We had a transcript of an interview that this mysterious. Six agent had given to a television program in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, three but for various reasons understandable because it was so inflammatory, it was suppressed. So we had the problem of how were we going to flesh this out in something that would have a visual aspect to it. And Tug and I were walking back from lunch one day and suddenly. Ray finds popped into my head. He had approached me a couple of months earlier about working on a film that he was going to direct. and. I turned the tables and said, well, why don't you come and? Be The character of Norman, Darbyshire in our film and. Talking, and I went over to the national theatre and pitched the idea to him, and he immediately got the idea and accepted. And he was playing at the National Theatre a different role I- combat it was, but he only had to do all year to do, but he didn't have to get out of. Costume. He was reading the transcript in a really dramatic way but let me ask you water as an American filmmaker. What was it about Mossad the overthrown Prime Minister of Iran. That interested you what was it about this story that made you wanted to come on board I had edited San Menendez Jar had back in two thousand and five, and that was where I learned about. Las. Vegas all history of the Iranian oil and the the UK's involvement and the US involvement. and. Working on this film what I learned was that this coup, this overthrow of LOSEC was the very first time that the CIA had gone off campus. So to speak and had to destabilize a foreign government in the eastern hemisphere and by their own lights, this coup was a huge success. They got everything that they wanted that cost very little proportionately speaking, and so it under the authorship of Allen? Dulles. became a template for how the United States could have its way in the world by destabilizing government after government to. Not have to fight a war like they had a hot war in Korea that was going on at the same time. So this this episode. Is a template that works its way through the history of our relationship with Havana with our relationship with Chile and particularly our relationship with the calm. And then they were coups. Elsewhere that would backed by the CIA in Africa and Central America and all the rest of it. So you're right this was the first of them I wanNA play a clip and this is you found and you've tracked down. The tatty Moussawi Matt Ryan who was most of their head of security at the time was amazing that you found him. He recalls the what happened on that day sixty, seven years ago the nineteenth, of August, nineteen fifty-three. Let's just play and we'll talk about it. How you? So I did. Shaw. Chaban Phanom. So. High Sch- trunk the funded author. Rats, enough. Fish I'm John. was. Shakes. Active Park? Appointment but. I. Wish. Clod with Meka that shot I mean to the Mommy a heart should desk was civil. As assorted but. Stats. Jones who? Go for. The. Oil took. So tally. It's very dramatic that you found him, and then you you have him talk about what happened on that day and the artistic rendition is also pod of the filmmaking. Is You recapture those historic moments? Tell people who most said there was I mean nobody really knows that there was a budding democracy in Iran I mean even at the beginning of the nineteen hundreds, it was the first in the region. That tried at least to have some kind of constitutional democracy explain is. His Relevance to history his importance. Well at was that that was elected on a ticket of nationalizing Iranian that was his sole purpose and that having an April nineteen, fifty, one and. Up, to that point, Britain was absolutely controlling Iranian own benefit of resources revenue wrong getting absolutely think retreating Iranians like second class citizens in Avocado oil refinery todd goes like a statement in State Yvonne was basically in their two point were doing India in Iraq. Must have liked immediate nationality running oil. He was representing a secular democratic sensibilities of. Iranians Iran. Rains Prime Minister Rules and does the executive office job. And so when he did finalized nationalized, all churchill didn't take very kindly to this it was. Running, all was Britain's biggest overseas asset anger Iranian was feuding in Britain. It was in the navy was converted from coal to oil. So they had to get rid of the. In fact, they say people in my film say British diplomat Sayer we had to get wants so as possible and they reached out to America and the CIA involved a judge integration to Truman said, no, he's right. You, have to respect their sovereignty do a deal he left Eisenhower came in much more receptive. The Dallas brothers it became a joint operation it was masterminded by the British. Land, written. Code written with Americans and Nolan Darbyshire was the ringmaster. He round the school neely Ron so well spoke perfect Persian. You probably knew better than I do now and and he he ran the operation and he says his own words in this explosive transcript that we have so much out. That was potentially the father of a future Democratic Iran? He, he put a little statue of Gandhi on his on his mantelpiece. You can see the link. And who knows had he not been toppled where Iran might go? Well you know I was going to ask you both. Water since you're. The American. What do you think might have happened if your country? Topple. As the democratically elected prime minister of this country with which it is on such bad terms now for forty years at least since seventy nine in the. Islamic republic. It's very hard to say with the as conduct things but the the. The chance is that the revolution of seventy-nine would not have happened that was the result of twenty five years of the autocratic regime of the absolute monarch. Backed by the of the of the shop and the pendulum. Swung so far in the in the direction of this religious fundamentalism, which was absolutely something that must addict was opposed to so It's it's quite possible that the revolution would would never have happened. I want to read a little bit of the review. In. A little bit of the article about it says, your film shows that it becomes increasingly clear that the British and Americans viewed Iran merely as a chessboard on which to play their power games, the prize controlling the oil supply and halting the march, of Communism, tally that you spoke about the oil supply and how that fueled a whole new energy. Dependent? British navy, etc. But the whole idea was that it was meant to be a bulwark against communism as well. Against Associates. Yes that was churchill's pitched to the Americans the British. We're not going to say to the Americas coming please help us get out oil back. It was coming help us stop Iran going communist I. Think I was a Communist, both man and that was represented as going to sympathize. In fact, they a lot of propaganda was Iranian press as him being communist all or some some sort of crazy socialist. In fact. Fake news was invented by the CIA six. We have an amazing CIA agent into some saying it would write copy at Langley against. And then he appeared in Iranian papers the next day so. I think the Iran at risk of becoming communism as an excuse for the coup is BS choose my French It was it was always about overreact so much other stuff that's going to be having document of an interview with an American. Politician saying we had to make a deal with the British that we're going to get a slice of this award is going to help me with coup, and in fact that turned out to be the case when when the WHO happened to shock came back was jail oil company was split, Angry Ryan and became VP. How many people be was born in? Iran and it was a consortium of which the Americans had forty percent, and then they became the dominant power in Iran asked the sideline. It was about the oil like Iran was about the lack Venezuela's about the oil, but it's come to the Middle East. It's always about the oil and there's an American bumper sticker that says, why is our under their sound? Tally I want to play another clip because this is really interesting. You told me about the CIA here you are getting access to some of the a archives and documents of the time. Here's this clip. For who's new was essentially. This page. Host, the military coup that overthrew most of that of national front cabinet was carried out under CIA direction. They had never to my knowledge officially acknowledged their role. In the coup and you see here the the first part of that sentence that as an act of US foreign policy conceived and approved at the highest levels of government it was not an aggressively simplistic solution clandestinely arrived at, but was instead an official admission by both the United States and United Kingdom that normal rational methods of international communication. And Commerce had failed. He must have was in the way and even acknowledged the British role, right? So very quickly, Terry because I want to get give ultra last word as well. They have now. It's the transcript has been published by the National Security Archive at George Washington University in the US. That's a bit of a step forward. It is It's a little minor accruing itself. The National Security Archives have been amazing Malcolm. Brown. Who Features in the film or Deputy Director of Research using incredible source of a material for us and we are delighted that his name he's been finally able to share this document, which is the smoking on it's it's the closest. You'RE GONNA get from 'EM I six to admit that it was their crew primarily bringing Americans in. So in absence of an admission official mission by the British government got transcript stands in on. What I hope that had a bit more time to talk to both of you. But listen we're out of time but that was really really interesting. Walter Merge Tally Mirani. Thank you so much for joining us. And now with protests on the streets global pandemic and polarized political landscape, you might wonder if the age of American exceptionalism is coming to an end, our next guest Wade Davis believes that it is he's professor of anthropology at the University of British Columbia and in a recent article for rolling stone, he wrote about how covid nineteen signals quote the unraveling of America, and here he is talking to a Hari Sreenivasan about how even great empires have their day. Thanks Christiane Wade Davis. Thanks for joining us. This has been a popular concern among critics of the president. This idea that the American Empire is unraveling and I want to start with just a little quote from the essay that you had pen for rolling stone and you said in there no empire long indoors. Even if you anticipate their demise, every kingdom is born to die the fifteenth century belong to the Portuguese sixteen to Spain seventeen to the Dutch France. Donald. The eighteenth and Britain the nineteenth. Why do you think that? This is the end of the American Empire or the American era. Well I think you know off on these that's not something I'm looking forward to and I think if the era does slip away, we're going to be very the staubach four. Particularly of the is a way history moves to China with with that political structure, I was really at peace trying to look at it through the Cultural Lens. You know it's interesting. The the argument's always been about morbidity and mortality as if it was a medical story united one side saying that these figures are really a desperately terrible the other side Santa were exaggerating and so on and it struck me that the real issue was what this pandemic meant in this. Moment of time you know the black death of course, changed European history by wipe out half the population of Europe in transforming the economy. But we also had other pandemics. We my own grandfather died in Spanish flu in one, thousand, nine, hundred, nineteen millions of people died yet that didn't shake history because it happened in a time when the world was already numb from death, you know catch and people forget that for example, in the summer, of Woodstock when five hundred thousand kids swam around together in the mud in New York state there was a major Hong Kong outbreak that left people in Berlin storing corpses in subway stations because the hospitals. got over run. So what's different? Now I think what's different now is I obviously the global reach of both technology to disseminate the story and the global reach of travel to to disseminate the virus remember that when Woodstock happened the vast majority of Americans had never taken commercial flight. So these things have come together and it's it's credit changes in our lives but people are always adapting. You know we're always dancing with new possibilities for life look at us to work from home we'll get used to having theaters, shudder restaurants this that and the economic sounds will hover over the economy unless total collapse we'll be all right on that front as. Well but what has changed is the absolute stunning impact. This had on the reputation, the United States, and the myth of American exceptionalism. Here we were nation with two thousand people dying a day discovering that were living kind of in a failed state ruled by kind of a dysfunctional government led by someone who clearly intellectually not even begin to understand significance of what was happening all around him. So is the critique more about the specific government response and perhaps the president than it is about America in general are those to the same? No, they're not I think I. Think I say, in the article that the election, the president trump twenty sixty. WAS NOT. was was not a symptom or clause of decline it. was indication of the intensity of sent innocence. You know. We. We forget what's become of America and again I want to stress. As you know, I've often described since his piece went viral as a Canadian commenting on America I married an American I. I became an asteroid. American. Is Love America got my education there I my entire career could never have happened in Canada. My Own son-in-law's serving on active duty in the US forces right now overseas. So famous let out of love. Yeah it's you know what I think it is it's like a family intervention. You know if you have an intervention, the first thing you have to do is hold the mirror to the person to show you where they've gotten to. One of the most remarkable correlations of this whole crisis is to look at a difference in performance between the true social democracies of the world whether it's Canada New Zealand Denmark or the Scandinavian nations compared to the United. States? And I've also had some criticism. Of this article, by Canadians, who keeps all it's not so great in Canada. Well, of course is not so great in Canada we're not perfect place, but the data is the data and on July thirtieth when the United States announced fifty, nine, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, nine new cases of Covid in all of British Columbia there were five covid patients in the hospitals. The measure of success in a civilized nation is not the currency accumulated by the lucky few but the strength of social relations, the bonds of reciprocity that of bind everybody one way or another into a common purpose mean people in the United States. Is Forget what they did. They save civilization the Ford Motor Company more industrial than it. We're popping up liberty ships to day the record for building a liberty ship was four days four days, twenty nine hours and seventeen minutes from scratch. No mean literally industrial might of America together with the blood of Russian soldiers literally save civilization. You know we ended up spending six dollars since two thousand and one on Military Adventures we've we've China's never gone to war since the nineteen seventies we've never been peace, and in that time China, every three years poured more Smith in America in the twentieth century is a built their. Own Country One pull up a paragraph here. It says the American culture of the individual denies not just community but the very idea of society no one does anything to anyone all must be prepared to fight for everything education shelter food medical care whatever prosperous and successful democracy deemed to be fundamental rights universal healthcare equal access to quality public education, a social safety net for the week elderly and infirm American dismisses as socialist indulgences as if so many signs of weakness how did the United States go from a place where we were building? Ships several ships day we all collectively sacrificed as a country for wartime effort. To this cult of individualism. Well the cult of individuals has always been one of the great strengths and wonders of the United States, of course, going back to the founding fathers. But in the wake of World War Two, don't forget the with Europe and Asia, and ashes the United States with but six percent of world's population controlled fifty percent of the world's economy. We built ninety percent of world automobiles and that. Affluence allowed for a truce between Labor and capital it. Gave rise to the middle class and you know when I was boy a relatively a man with relatively little education a could readily own a home on a car could his kids in good schools and and and we kind of nostalgia for that era. But we also we forget that the America the nineteen fifties in economic terms resembled Denmark more than it does the America today remember that marginal tax rates on the wealthy were ninety percent. So the rise of of affluence in what was often seemed to. Be the. Golden Age of American capitalism, lifted all ships, and since then we've we've we've entered a place of such almost grotesque income inequality. I mean, you know a democracy cannot thrive and it certainly can't realize its ideals if the top one percent control thirty, trillion dollars in assets, but the bottom half of the entire populous in the United States has more debt than assets right and so this kind of social safety net that we take for granted in a place like Canada universal healthcare access to good. Education Social support for the elderly, the infirm. Of the impoverished you know that sort of looked upon as in the states as sort of so many signs of weakness know when people go out to bars now or and we've seen this in the in the upsurge of cases or go to the beaches or go to conventions or or protests the use of masks that that's not a side of freedom. That's a sign of a of a people, a weakness of people who lack the stoicism to endure the the pandemic, the fortitude to defeat it. was talking about article the other day and he kept hammering home that hey, don't give up on the United States. This is still a place with a tremendous amount of resilience. There is no better. Container Right now of. Some of the best talent in the world, some of the best capital institutions of higher education and research that doesn't go away with one election or one pandemic I. Agree One hundred percent and I wish with all my heart that your uncle's absolutely right as I say in the essay, you know th the decline of America's no time to gloat. It's no time for celebration a at a moment you know. When all of civilization could have gone down a raffle of unimaginable floors, the military might and the industrial might of the United States literally in the lifetime of our fathers Save the world, and that's not I personally, and certainly if the hinge of history turn to an Asian century dominated by the current regime in China, with their two hundred, million surveillance cameras in their treatment of various minorities and so on. Treatment of the people of Hong Kong we will certainly be nostalgic for the American era but again, I think that if America is to heal the bonds, you have to have some kind of sense of collective communities some sense of benign collective purpose. The the talk of polarization in the states is always seen through the lens of of the political immediacy a few. Will in the states but the in historic terms it is so deeply sad and it's so deeply corrosive and no matter what happens in November whoever is elected whether the president is resoundingly defeated or whether he wins again if America can't begin to bridge the gap between itself, that kind of prosperous hopeful future that your uncle visions may just not happen. The society's know when they've peaked or how long till they figure this out I mean it's not like an athlete. They can just back at their split times and say, yeah, you know what? I was faster five years ago you know the fascinating thing is The British Empire few people realize it reached its greatest geographical extent in nineteen thirty five is you know long as to the great, war. But we now know, of course, the empire was absolutely bled white and bankrupt by that war. In fact, probably its height was back in the eighteen eighties and yet there they were nineteen thirty five still having their gin and tonics in all corners of the world and the map of the world was read but the torch history had long before past the Americans, and so you know. It's. The first thing you read from that article again, none of this is something I wish and certainly I did not write in any bitterness or any desire to hurt my American friends and family members But the reality is that you know empires rise and fall eras come and go. That's the truth of history and and if people can't see. What's going on onto themselves? That's awesome. Sure. Sign that the that the dangers on the horizon. What's so wrong about? Pointing in word and saying, we have our own problems to fix, and perhaps we don't need to be on the world stage in the same way. What is the impact of you know having global leadership or a society standing if you choose to do that where I don't think there's necessarily. About it's it's more a an issue of you know the American presence on the global stage. Do we look back over the last fifty or sixty years and believe that it's been for all of its problems fundamentally positive or negative force in the world certainly the idea of turning back upon ourselves you know improving our infrastructure looking after own people is probably long. But I think that the bigger question is the the integrity of who we are. How do we? How do we bridge this divide me? How do we get back to a place where in part of part of this is just you know sociological want people always talk about how great schools were in the nineteen fifties often left out of that equation is the fact that the only opportunities for women in that decade were, of course, nursing or secretary alert teaching. So when we grew up I grew up on. You know our teachers were women who today are on the bench there surgeons they're they're they're running for office or running corporations. So some these things just you know and the idea you know that that a family be solid middle class this with a single wage is simply no longer the case of some of these changes we just have to adapt to, but I think this. No nation can stand when it's. It's like Lincoln said no nation can stand when it's you know at odds with itself and until until America I think looks in the mirror and sees how how crippling this polarization has become not simply as an artist as of political. Discourse but jeep cultural divide a really unprecedented since the divide before the before the civil war. You know. Besides the pandemic the United States also seems to be beginning very difficult reckoning on race I won't that result in real change that moves the. Country forward that sets an example. Well, if we could somehow in the United States resolve the challenges of of race that would be a fantastic thing but it goes hand in hand as Martin Luther King, the very very beginning of his his crusade a you know he never separated the racial challenge from the economic challenge and it seems to me that the key thing in United States is not just overcoming the the the the nightmare of Rachel discrimination but. Also economic discrimination. One thing I tried to explain to my American friends to try to the difference between Canada, the United States or any social democracy in the United States and and again, I'm not saying that we don't have enormous problems here in Canada but I, I call this the Safeway Grocery store test. If you get your groceries at a most Safeway's in the United States, the tends to be educational racial cultural clough's class. Economic Chasm between you and the checkout person that's very difficult bridge. And you don't really feel that at the Safeway in Canada not that you necessarily interact as appear, but you do have a sense of being part of a wider community and that's powerful. You can sense it and I think the reason for that is very simple as that you check out person's getting a decent wage because of the unions you know that probably your kids in their kids go to the same public school of Safeway's are based in neighborhoods but more importantly, and this really is important think. Healthcare is not about medicine alone it's about social solidarity. It's a message you send citizen that you matter and that person at the checkout counter knows that I know that they know that I know that their kids get sick they will get much the same cares my kids but the care of the prime minister. So do you think that it is possible I mean here you are. You've you've you've written this this love letter intervention to the United States in a way millions of people read it. So do you think America has the capability to turn on a dime again to try to figure out how to build these bridges and maintain its leadership? Whether, it maintains its political leadership or whether we even want that to be the case I'm not sure. But whether America itself can reinvent itself as a better heart of rain nature, the spirit of Abraham Lincoln absolutely, and my my my my hope is is not that I I I want to be critical of America I just want America, the America, my dreams as a boy growing up China's that was the America of Walt Whitman Abraham Lincoln, the grateful dead that's what I want America to be again. Way Davis. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. and. Surely, that is going to be very hard of what the two contenders a fighting for come November and finally this Democratic Convention will highlight the achievement of women breaking the glass ceiling like Kamala Harris, of course, making history as the vice presidential nominee in the first black woman on a major party ticket in the United States. But this weekend here in the UK swimmer chloe mcardle broke the. Watery ceiling all the watery debt by breaking the men's record for the most swims across the English Channel Yes it is a thing. It took the Australian native nearly eleven hours to finish thirty fifth crossing beating the men's record, which stands at thirty four, and also as a survivor of domestic violence Mugabe said that she hopes of victory will raise awareness for women who've been suffering abuse in lockdown. That is it for now you can always catch us online on podcast and across social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

United States president Iran Joe Biden Donald Trump America CIA Christiane Britain Republicans Ohio Europe Wade Davis prime minister Congress Kamala Harris Walter Merge China CIA Walt Whitman
Debunking the Left's Lie of a Socialist 'Utopia'

The Charlie Kirk Show

54:18 min | 4 months ago

Debunking the Left's Lie of a Socialist 'Utopia'

"Hey everybody is super important episode. If you want to support our program. It's charlie kirk dot com slash support e. Mail us your questions freedom. Charlie kirk dot com. And if you wanna get involved a turning point. Usa go to teepee usa dot com buckle up everybody here we go charlie. What you've done is incredible here. Maybe charlie kirk on the college campus. Won't you know we are lucky to have charlie. Charlie cuts running the white house. I want to thank joe. He's an incredible guy his spirit his love of this country's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful organisations ever created turning. Usa embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries destroyed lives and we are going to fight for freedom campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Truth is so important to me. Pursuing truth is a huge part of who. I am and what i stand for when you look around on. What's happening to our country. You can see why. Many people are experiencing real frustration with the news media along with feelings of uncertainty and a lack of hope for the future. How can we know which news is true and wear or in whom can we place our trust. The only place i found unwavering truth and peace is in my faith in jesus christ if two thousand and twenty has beaten down your spirit. I'd like to recommend a book to you called reflections on the existence of god by bestselling author richard simmons. The third reflections on the existence of god is a collection of short essays. That tackles the big question of does god exist. This book is well researched and easy to read former. White house aide. Wallace henley says quote. I've taught apologetic for many years and have read every scholar mentioned in this book of all the books. Unapologetic simmons is the best. I've ever read if you want to challenge yourself to spiritual and intellectual growth. The me willing to ask yourself. Life's toughest questions. I challenge you right now to get your copy of reflections on the existence of god by richard simmons the third goto reflections charlie dot com. That's reflections charlie dot com. Hey everybody welcome to this episode of the charlie kirk show. I am personally super excited for this episode. I'm excited for all my episodes but this one in particular. I have my note pad and my pen ready to go because this man. I have learned more about history from than i can say anyone else bill federer. Welcome to the. Charlie show officially charlie great to be with you. You run american minute dot com. You are the walking encyclopedia of western civilization and of history. I've learned so much from you. I read your email every morning. And some people say charlie. Where do you get your information to know what's going on today. Just go back in time a little bit and we've known each other for years but just in the last eighteen months in particular. I've just really grown an appreciation for the research. You've been doing so bill. Tell us about the book you just wrote. And then we can go from there into current events or any direction. This takes us. Yeah well i tell people. History is not prophetic but it is predictive. So past behavior is the best indicator of future performance so we can look back at the past and get it trajectory of where things are going and that sort of what i do in. This book called socialism. The real history from plato to the present For those that are not familiar with the book Plato live three. Abc acids it was A democracy but he didn't really like democracy in passing. Plato mentions several times of atlantis. This highly advanced civilization than it sinks in the seat and but it was structured and he liked that and he considered a democracy in unstructured society and he says the chief characteristic of a democracy is tolerance. Everybody tolerate each other. He calls it. Charming like an embroidery patrick. Lots of colors like a bizarre marketplace recombining and then they tolerate people that are a little bit off and then they tolerate people that are a lot off to finally. They're tolerating crooks and crime and fraud in broad daylight looting and nobody does anything about it and then it creeps into their handling of finances and it's democracy so they vote to spread the treasury out and now the treasury's empty and then they vote tech. Take the money from the rich people. Now there's rich people left and then there's a shortage may begin to bicker and finally turns into chaos and people begin to say. Can't someone come along and fix this mess. And that's when some governor comes along and says i can fix it. I just need some emergency powers and he says it first. They're all smiles and charming. But then they finally stand in the cherry state the reins of power and they're revealed as the tyrant and if you know objects to their will they have a pretense of destroying them and so. Here's the the plato's scenarios that democracy without the people having morals and virtue ends in domestic chaos out of which some tyrant usurps power and. So that's the the beginning model. Then he says it's inevitable because he says people really don't have morals and virtue says if you give them a choice of giving up their life or giving up virtue valoise always give up their virtue to save their life now. Ancient israel's model had a big magnet in the sky called god and so people were virtuous for a little bit longer went on a couple more centuries but it finally a crater but the then they got a king a king saul but in a plato's time the people really didn't believe their deities. Were these fickle greek personalities that nobody really believed in and so it wasn't like you're accountable to god it it was. Plato said it's just a matter of time. This democracy experiment is gonna end this social chaos and said the best. You can hope for a nights tyrant. He called philosopher. King he is the head of gold and is administrators. Deep state political crony enforcers. They are the arms and justice silver together. They make up the ruling class and everyone else's the abdomen of iron and bronze and they are in the ruled class and so socialism is a structured society of a ruling class and a ruled class. and plato. plato's on. He says the ruled class own no property they have no privacy The the government decides who gets to have kids. The government takes a kid away from the parents before they've been affected with the habit to the parents they bring them into the city and indoctrinate them with lies actually calls them lies. He says we want lun grand lie which will be believed by everybody. Plato said that plato said that right in in the republic we want what one grand live which will be believed by everybody and and so. That's the origin. So when you study all socialism it all goes back to plato. The structured society. I'm so glad you mentioned that bill. So a mentor of mine. Also mentioned he said that the line of socialism. It's not a complete line. Went from plato. To research to mark's that's probably a good summer ization of it. It's not total. you know. it's not a perfect through line. But plato is one of the first thinkers who of course learned under socrates socrates was killed. plato then taught aristotle. Aristotle taught alexander. The great just interesting kind of history that i learned from. You not telling you anything. You don't know him to sing it for the audience's own their own benefit but plato was really big into the abolition of private property and the destruction of the nuclear family and really creating. Could you argue bill. I guess i'm saying this. Ask myself. the question was he trying to create a utopia. Was it an idea of trying. To create almost heaven on earth aspect it was his ideal ideal structured aside and he lived in athens as you mentioned Socrates lived when there was a war and the Athens navy Fought and the ships ahead. Some sailors fall in the water in the middle of the battle and the admiral was not able to rescue all the sailors and they get back and the people of athens. Were so upset at this admiral for not rescuing sailors. It fell in the water that they got with two into a frenzy. And then kill. The admiral and clinton socrates saw this at basically just turned to this lynch mob and so socrates view of democracy was this mob rule. And so that's like. Plato did not like it. And he said it's just gonna it will work for a while as long as that. It's in to be virtuous in. He goes through five steps. Because i it's indeed virtuous the city state will be run by lovers of principle and virtue And these are people that know how to run farms. They know how businesses maybe they know how to run really big businesses and And their lovers of principle and truth and they do a good job. The city gross then at second group wants to get involved in politics played. Don't call them lovers fame. These are people that have no real experience running anything. They just somehow got famous. Greek actor or a greek olympic athlete. Or maybe like a hollywood action hero. That gets to be governor of california and you think you know what what the arnold run before. He became the governor. Uh nothing you was just famous now. Plato says these famous people. They love fame so much. They hate being detained. So these you can manipulate with public opinion. The first they're going to do what's right no matter what you say. About the second group belt bend. Would you say things about them. And so since they don't know how to rest off they end up yielding to the temptation of avarice or selfishness and they can't help but funnel a little money to their friends a little money to their supporters. Little money to some brother-in-law's company before you know it. It turns into a two tiered society of the insider click and then the outsiders and then plato again says that they'll throw the bums out set up a democracy in its charming and then finally the democracy gets taken over by a tyrant and but if we fast forward from plato two thousand years we go to columbus discovering america twenty years later sir thomas more rights island of utopia. It's a were. Utopia means nowhere where it's a fictitious island off the coast south america supposedly discovered by amerigo vespucci and It's written as a greek dialogue right. So so plato rights dialogue with socrates. Well this is a dialogue with the guiding davis which means header of nonsense and so this utopia told by this peddler of nonsense is structure to side of a ruling class and ruled clash and the The ruled class again own. No property everything stored in a communal warehouse. They have a no possessions there so everyone lives in identical three story houses. There's no locks on any doors. There's no ale houses or coffee houses or tea houses. No places for private meetings. There's no privacy none whatsoever. The government tracks everybody everywhere. You go with an internal passport if you're caught without it's a lifetime of slavery and the government decides who gets to children and then the government takes the children away from the parents and indoctrinates them with lies in chooses their careers that they have to work the entire rest of their life. this is utopia. This is the island of utopia. Now that was fifteen. Sixteen answer thomas. More wrote it. As a veiled jab at henry aches who was wanting to rule everyone's lives he switches from being catholic protestant and anglican. And then he and so sir. Thomas more was killed by henry. The ace so Anyway but then we fast lord another century and you have sir francis bacon. He the new atlantis. So he's directly referring to plato's atlantis. This is a fictitious. so this is the time of shakespeare. The queen elizabeth that period beginning of the scientific revolution and francis. Bacon has an island in the south pacific off the coast of peru and It's highly structured little more scientific careers and everybody's working but it still structured society and Someone wrote a satire on it. Jonathan jonathan swift's gulliver's travels right. Gulliver is washed up on this island of lilla put and it's a structured society with this ruling class and then everybody else that has their fates determined by the and Now why is this important. The pilgrims so the early sixteen hundreds of pilgrims were originally a company colony with bylaws written by investors. That looked back. To plato's thomas borchert francis bacon and blown. Behold the pilgrim bylaws said everything would be owned in common everything would be gained by cooking hunting fishing trading. Juggle into ye common stock. And everyone's livelihood comes out of ye common stock and william so they almost starved to death. He says the young men objected to doing twice as much work as the old guy but didn't get paid more. The old guy considered it an indignity indignity to be classed labor with the young men and then he says the women objected to having to wash other men's clothes and willie bradford's almost starve to death. But we had to come up with a fisher plan. They give everyone their old plot of land. He said this made all hands more industrious. The women now it willingly into the field and took their little ones with that. Where before they would ledge weakness and to enforce them would have been great oppression so here we have It believe it or not. William bradford the governor the pilgrim's rights. He says that this experiment of communal service was tried by good and honest men and it failed proving. The emptiness of the theory of plato applauded recently by scholars in europe so the pilgrims knew they were trying to act out this theoretical and so that's what would socialism is a theoretical proposition. It looks good on a chart chalkboard but it fails miserably. It's the eternal bait and switch when running a business. Hr issues can kill you. I can tell you from turning point. Usa that wrongful termination suits minimum wage requirements labor regulations. They can really add up. Hr manager's salaries are never cheap. they're an average of seventy thousand dollars a year. Look you've heard me talk about bambi before they're terrific. It's bambi spelled b. n. b. e. They were created specifically for you the small businessman. You get a dedicated. Hr manager craft hr policy and maintain your compliance. All for just ninety nine dollars a month with bambi you can change. Hr from your biggest liability to your biggest strength. Your dedicated hr. Manager's availed by phone email real time chat from on boarding to terminations they customize your policies to fit your business and they help you manage your employees day all for just ninety nine dollars a month month among there are no hidden fees. Cancel anytime you didn't start your business because you wanted to spend time in. Hr compliance let bambi helped. Get your free. Hr audit today. Go to bambi dot com slash kirk right now to schedule your free. Hr audit bambi dot com slash kirk spell band to the b. e. dot com slash kirk. And that was the big contrast between plato aristotle and it is wonderfully summarized in that famous painting by raphael Where plato is pointing up and aristotle was pointing to the ground almost like plato is dealing in the clouds in the ideal and aristotle saying. Let's look what actually works. Let's be more realistic. That where we get that word from. Let's see what actual the data shows us really what's happening aerostat being a scientist Plato had the academy and aristotle had the lyceum is that right. Yeah my history right there. We're aerostat uil being better versed in the actual applied sciences. A lot of our scientific method can be actually too what aristotle combined and you can see the kind of divergence here in a lot of different ways in the west of how we process the correct way to govern ourselves. It's not a perfect fit. But plato dealing much more in the theoretical much more than the ideal. You can see why so. Many university campuses are places of people that are filled with ideas that would never have any sort of applicable in the real world but almost doesn't concern them. It would be much more the worry much more about. What would almost the. I wanna say narrative but what what they would consider to be working on a chalkboard or in this kind of idea and would you consider that to be correct some Yet yeah and it goes. It goes for being a benign error. Too dangerous aunt. Now when the cova just happened. Couldn't help but see an article where some nature people had planned to go to panama and they had some spots along the beach and they sorta like that survivor program. You know who's back to nature and they were going to have this wonderful time will then. When covert hit panama's would not allow them to fly out of the country and they were trapped there and then it got to the place where they begin to bicker amongst themselves and fight and say no. Don't take my stuff and you know and this is my they would end up you long shortage this beautiful experiment. Let's i'll go live back in. Nature turned into this gang of people bickering amongst themselves. And so that's where socialism is this. Promise dream that delivers a nightmare. It's the it's a cultural bait and switch. It promises. heaven delivers hell but it's always there. It's the sirens so when ulysses leaves and sailing through the island greek islands. There's an there's one of the islands where there are women that sing and they're called sirens. We think of sira today on an ambulance but back then these were pretty women that stood along the the cliffs on the shore and would sing in the sailors would get close to hear them only to crash on the rocks and then all the villages come out get all the stuff that was lost on the rocks and so this was the siren's song is this always sounds promising but it ends up delivering death. And that's a socialist miss now. We fast forward to the french revolution. So we have a revolution franchise revolution. They helped us during our revolution. And you know what they got in return nothing but they here they help us and they don't get any special trade rides. They don't usually a fight a big war. You get something. In france got nothing and then they had a couple of years where crops failed. And the people blamed. King louis the sixteenth and his wife re antoinette. She's the one where they told him that. People didn't have a cake or bread. She said let them eat cake. You know i quote is debated but yeah that yeah and so. They decided to if they could just chop off. The king and queen's heads problems will be solved while they chop them off. It doesn't get any better than they decided they can. Chop off the heads of all the royalty. The problems will be solved. Doesn't get any better than they chop off the heads of all the wealthy. They have money we don't they're selfish doesn't get any better than they chop off the heads of all the business owners and farmers bay of food supplies. We don't doesn't get any better than they chop off the heads of the hoarders the people that have extra stuff you got extra hundred have enough yourself and they chopped off the edge of the preachers. Who in the clergy and whole orders of nuns. They were speaking out against the head chopping off stuff then. They chop off the heads of the former revolutionaries. The ones that used to chop off hits got tired about some other to blink. Forty thousand people in their heads chopped off in paris france and then they sent their army to the vendee and killed three hundred thousand the first modern genocide. And so here. We have this model for the french. Revolution was liberty egality fraternity liberty equality fraternity fraternity. Was the french word for. Socialism is the collective. It's the group. It's the fraternity and so equality can be understood to ways in america. It was equal treatment before the law goal opportunity in france. Everyone having an equal amount of stuff and it's a fraternity. The group thinks you have too much stuff. It can use the power of the state to take away your stuff and kill you. And so. that's what happened. The chopped off all heads and killed everybody. In and then what democracy without world virtue ends in chaos and out of that napoleon arose and then to polian copiers across europe in the six million people died and one of the places. Napoleon conquered was russia a german kingdom and the king afterwards said. We can't let that happen again. We need to strengthen the state and so he gets a philosopher named hegel at the university of berlin and hegel says the state is god walking under the state is our mortal god all the work that a human being has he has only through the state and so a student at the university of berlin was our marks karl marx. And so now. This is the sort of the second phase of my book Hagel said he wanted to concentrate power in the state so it won't be conquered by another police. And so he comes up with something called hagelin or gillian dialectics. And it's a triangle. And we've talked about this before in our program but it's very complicated but if you can explain galleon dialectic. God bless you. please. As i'll i'll i'll learn alongside our listeners. I could join a job of it. So it's a triangle. One corner is a thesis. The opposite corner is an anti thesis or antithesis and the top corner is the synthesis. It's really simple. You start off with the status quo. You create a problem. That's real bad. And everybody's happy to settle. Fear answered the tap is bad and that becomes the new ceases starting point and then you create another problem. It's real bad and everybody settles for your answer. That's half his bat. Now becomes the new starting point you could create. Another problem is real bad. Everybody settles for the answer. This happens bad. You keep doing it. And at each crises people surrender a little bit more of their independence their freedoms that rights in exchange to have this real bad crisis. Just be a semi crisis. Right and And so karl marx out. Who was a member of the young gillian's at the university of berlin berlin. Karl marches will. How do you create an antithesis. You send in agitators agent. Provocateurs community organizers labor organizers. Their job is to identify groups of grievances. Stir them into rioting and it was be the proletarian against the bourgeois. Which is the working class against the business owners. They organize the blacks against the lights. The muslims against christians the catholics against the products. Even the hutus against the tubes in the congo and rwanda they really don't care who the two sides are and they really don't care what the issues are. Their goal is a destabilising crisis. Makes everyone panicked that they give up their freedoms so that some dictator can usurp power and so this model. It was used over and over again. And it's interesting interrupt me anytime. That britain used a variation of this take over india so seventeen fourteen british lands and bengal and they opened up a trading post. It turns into a ford. That's fill full of guns. They give guns to one kingdom then they give guns to another kingdom than they stir ancien animosities and the two kingdoms fight and beat each other up and when they're all worn out the bridge committed conquer boat and they did it again and again and again until they took over all of india. A quarter of the world's population came under british control through this. They tried doing it in america when they would incite the natives on the frontiers to butchered the people on the the the frontiers during the revolution the war of eighteen twelve. And so this idea that you go in identify groups with grievances and you stir them up to write it and that's and that's similar to what's happening today in america. They the the left. They are trying to kind of re embodied. The teachings of the young galions maybe a little bit antonio graham she and their two of cultural marxism but there definitely is an idea of trying to turn people against each other intentionally and then try to have a new starting point and hegel was intentionally hard to read. I have not read. Hegel i i understand some of what he said. I admit to it I have no interest under say interest. I have no capacity or the patient to read the phenomenology of spirit. Not exactly something that you've probably read it and you probably can read it in the original german but hagel was a huge inspiration because he was a systemic thinker similar to immanuel kant similar to some of the kind of really big Kind of just landscape altering thinkers of the post renaissance period. He introduced a new system of thinking. And so can you. Now bring us to so mark's learned under hegel rousseau also really impacted marks as far as valuing the primitive over the civilized. The infant adult the collective over private Jean jacques rousseau being a french philosopher. Why believe was before the french revolution. Am i correct right. He's actually called the father of the french revolution. And you got your stuff down great. I'm very impressed. And i i read the american minute. That's why i'm not. One of the quotes were rousseau. Is he said. This is jean jacques. Rousseau in his book the social contract he says if the state says to an individual it is expedient for the state that you should die that individual should die because his life is a gift made conditional united states. So say that again. So this is jean jacques rousseau and he says in the social contract if the state is to an individual it is expedient for the state that you should die that individual should die because his life is a gift made conditionally by the state. And so there. Yeah it's really important Because there are different ways to view the social contract the three big thinkers when it comes to social contract would be thomas hobbes than it would be john. Rousseau and john locke they all had a different opinion of what our social contract would be. But this actually applies to today's politics because the left in america they would agree with russo's opinion. They would say if the state deems you unnecessary. Of course we can eliminate you yet. You know it's interesting. When you look. At four steps the first step is the pilgrims so after they scrapped their company bylaws They instituted a covenant form of government. Now what's a covenant. It's like a triangle in the sense that it's people in agreement with each other but it's more than just an agreement it's a commitment to each other so people committed to caring for each other. Why because they're all individually accountable to god and they get their individual rights from god so it's like a triangle. You got god the top you get the guy. Giving rights to individuals people are committed to carrying for each other because they're personally accountable to this guy of the top. The next century after the pilgrim's is b. e. h. statement and this is where covenant turns into social contract and it's just people in agreement with each other and if god is there he's distant so this comes out of the scientific revolution where you have Sir isaac newton sir isaac newton discovering laws of planetary motion laws of and kepler's laws of planetary motion and robert boyle laws of pressure and. Still some theologians will g baby. God made everything with laws and like a guy winds up a clock and set it on the shelf. Everything's just following these gears laws. And so if god is there he is distant he's impersonal. He's not involved in our lives. And the ultimate of this is god is some impersonal force in the universe. So we go from this pilgrim covenant where you're intimately committed to carrying for each other because you're personally cooked accountable to god in the next century coveted turned into social contract with the distant got next century turns into the french revolution which is social contract with though god intentionally got. They actually didn't want done in the year of the lord so they made seventeen ninety two of the year one basement one at seven day week with a sabbath rest could went to the bible so they came up with a ten date. We called a decade week. Day had ten each hour had hundred minutes each hundred seconds They said the ten was the number of men with you. Count with ten fingers. So they made every measurement in france divisible by ten. They called it the metric system. Maybe that's why i never really liked the metric system. But we're gonna ten that really how they came up i didn't know that was the origination of the metric system. Yeah they made every measurement divisible by tank. That's number of man because you have ten fingers that you can't with and then Napoleon spreads us all around europe and so for for fourteen years. The french republic is using french revolution time. They renamed the months. They renamed the days of the week. Because you've got these decade weeks and and so france is they turn churches and temples of reason. Robespierre that you know who was the head of their million robespierre and a. He put a prostitute in notre dame cathedral covered with a sheet. So this is the goddess reasons worshiper. I mean they intentionally wanted to erase god. They dug up the bones to saint genevieve The young woman that got all of paris to fast and pray back and forth for fifty ad when attila the hun wisconsin europe and this is run by jackson's right. So the jacob beans were like that the antifa blm. I mean they were comparison. Bill that out everything down here everything down to everything out. And then somehow miraculously some goods gonna come out of this mess. You just made when in fact all that happens isn't a polian seizes power or some dictator or tyrant. And and so what we we see. Is we go from pilgrim covenant with a personal god to the age of enlightenment social contract with a distant god to the french revolution social contract with no god to marxism socialist where the state is got that such a perfect compared. That's a great way to lay that out so all the social contract stuff is great but they always get rid of god and now why is important that we have gotten there If there is no god then your rights come from the state and what the state gives us. The state can take it away of and there's a great quote from eisenhower. He said in some land. The state claims to be the author of human rights if the state gives writes it can at inevitably will take away. Those rights he goes on our founding fathers had to refer to the creator in order to make the revolutionnaire experiment make sense in other words. We had to go above the king said we want above the faeroes head above. Caesar said we said we have rights that come from a creator that no government on earth can take away as a matter of fact. The government's job is to protect our god given rights. But if there is no god you don't have any right to give you and and then the state becomes god. So what would your account. What would your argument. Then be to the counter as someone would say who would be more in the Let's say david hume category. Were they would believe in alignment enlightenment. They'd say no. Your rights are based in nature. Not nature's god but this is kind of a. This is a new kind of belief that has really taken root in some atheist communities. But they say it's not the state it's just who you are in the natural condition. John lockwood sympathize with this. But john locke being a christian disagree with it. Can you can you reinforce only a rights giver. That could give you rights. It's not an accident. And how imperative that is to keep our civilization intact right so natshi. Who's the god is dead type of philosopher. He criticized the other atheists in england. Saying that. you're you're basically living off the fumes of christianity that you're saying he was talking about hume basically right. Yeah he was saying that that. You're saying that if you don't have a god that you'll be a moral person. But he says the morals that you're holding up our judeo christian morals and why are you bothering holding up those judeo-christian mortgage there is no judeo-christian. There is no god. Why are you so do the fact that you even identify good as a doing to others. You'd have them do unto you. You're you're you're still following the residual leftovers of judeo christian culture so even went. And then i keep going back to plato. If someone says a will be could it's like okay. I'm going give you a choice. You maintain your goodness or you die right. People will give up their morals. They'll give up their virtue if their life is on the line. They're going to say okay. I'm i'm holding these personal values. But if i'm gonna die for forget the values where as in the judeo christian model your gonna keep those values because your accountable in the next life to this. God who wants you to be truthful. That want you to be honest. And what should be fair. You're trusting him with your life right. And so so when they say well. We don't need. God we'll just be good is like no if you get rid of god if you really believe that go to an inner city take that take out your wallet and set it on the sidewalk and come back. You know the next day. See if it's still there most people if there's no consequence for their action they won't yield to their self side and the this goes all the way back to kane kill enable just parts selfish human nature though selfishness is the default setting for human nature and And to pull away from that you need it. We're we're consequence of don't wanna get to philosophy. Philosophical lift. A monarchy was a french political philosopher. Who's a french judge. And he was the most quoted of the writers by the founding fathers of anybody other than the bible so this modest you had a big impact on the founders and he divided governments into three And i was inspired by cicero. A lot and and so different philosophers divide governments differently but montesquieu's model was republic monarch despot. So he says republics are based where the people are the king and the people have to have virtue. He calls it a spring. But it's more or less the the electricity that runs through a republic that makes it come alive. I is the people have in virtue goes. This is most prevalent in the northern protestant countries of europe. He's a monarch He says that they motivate people through honor and shame. Honor shame culture. You do it. The monarch says you get to be sir night and he gets land. You don't do what the monarch said he strips you of your titles and you're ridiculed and ostracised and and he says that virtues not necessary for for monarchy that You will do. What would brings you honor even if it's a little bit of legal if you get honored for it it's okay and he says that the monarchs are most visible in the catholic countries europe because of religion with visible ahead is more likely to want to have a government with the visible head. Now what's the difference between a monarch in a despot. A monarch still has strings attached. He still can be accountable to god. That wants him to be fair. Because you know he's gotta be judged in the next life and so the king still. He's not totally free but a despot. According to skew is a strict is a king with no strings attached and he just rules by winds caprices. He can wake up one day decided job. Somebody's head off. Wake up another day. Decided to take somebody's life and he says desktops are most prevalent in muslim countries like the ottoman empire and he says that the electricity what he called the spring that makes the despot work is fear. Fear is the motivating factor why everybody obeys the desktop. And if you think of it. The the republican monarch guest bought mal. It's it's almost like a spirit. Mind and body. So so the the republic the people are virtuous. You feel safe because everybody has virtue and you're doing right because you're going to be rewarded or punished in the next life. The the monarch is Through shame and honor That's more of a mental thing or the solis realm and then the despots motivate through pleasure and pain. You do what he says. You get a harem. You don't do what he says you get your hand chopped off right and so it's sort of a spirit minded body but its positive and negative emotions Went in the next life ones in the middle rail but once in the physical room. Does it make sense that the company who controls half of online retail eavesdrops on your private conversations at home. What about the idea that a single company controls ninety percent of search results runs your email service and gets to track everything you do on your smartphone. Big tech and big data there more powerful than most countries are and they profit by exploiting your personal data. It's time to put a layer of protection between your online activity and these tech juggernauts. And that's why i use express. Vpn look they're spying on you right now. We talked about this a lot on the charlie kirk show. You want to protect yourself from spying thieves than it's express. Vpn think about how much of your life is on the internet. Sadly every site you visit video you watch and message you send gets tracked and data mined boiling you express. Vpn your device the software. Hide your ip address. Something big tech can use the personally identify you. This is camouflage okay. This is the invisibility cloak. Harry potter style. The hide yourself from xpress feet express. Vpn also encrypts one hundred percent of your internet data to keep you safe from hackers and eavesdroppers on your network and express. Vpn does all this about slowing your connection. That's why it's rated the number one. Vpn service by seen it and wired what i like most about express. Bbn i use it every day. You download the app on your phone. One button protected. So stop handing over all your personal data to big tech the monopoly that we talk about a lot on this program so do something about it. Don't just complain protect yourself express. Vpn the only vpn trust expressed vpn dot com slash. Charlie e. x. p. r. s. s. vpn dot com slash. Charlie to get three extra three months free go to express. Vpn dot com slash. Charley right now to learn more incredible. And i think that. What if you if you read the federalist papers. No person was more influential to the founding on the formation of government than monte skew. And maybe john locke from a philosophical standpoint maybe but monta skew in spirit of laws. I think is the name of the book that he wrote. was a french judge and madison. Had a great quote about montesquieu saying he called him the oracle madison called monster skew the oracle. And we're getting very philosophical which is very important but Can you bring it back to kind of what we're living through today. What parts of history you think are most instructive to make sense of what we're living through today. Well if we pick up with hegel and then we had karl marx ant then. Let's go to germany and we'll go to the nineteen twenties and we have. It's a republic weimar republic and to bottom up form of government. People are involved in their government and then yes almost started political party. It's called the national socialist workers party or nazi and the head of it as adolf hitler and he has his brownshirts which is abi l. l. antifa type of Kkk group that goes and does the violence and abuse brownshirts or nicknamed stormtrooper. Ch- sturm title which means stormtrooper and they would storm into the meetings of hitler's opponents and shot down the speakers and disrupt the meeting and then they would lock arms and block access to buildings. You can even see pictures of and then you know. Could you make people locking arms of blocking things and then they went into the cities and they smashed the windows and looted and set on fire over seven thousand jewish stores in the downtown cities in kristallnacht. The night of broken glass and in this confusion the people panic right so you have a republic without moral virtue in this panic this cast and they what someone to come along and hitler usurped power declares himself the fuhrer and And then what happened. Is their government. Transitions from a republic to a dictatorship. So this idea that you you have your group go. In there and create the crises so in times of crises people automatically give up their freedoms and this model is. Let's speed it along by intentionally create crisis and then it comes a little bit closer to home after world war two. You have germany. France england give independence to their former colonies and they start brand new countries with brand new leaders and they're climbing out of the postwar crisis. And it's a promising world except the soviet union decides it doesn't just want communism to run itself. It wants to run the world and so they began to send kgb agents into these brand new emerging countries and they would identify groups grievances ethnically croats and bosnians tighter rhodesia. Yeah religiously with sunni-shiite worth inox or racially or economically doesn't matter they would break them into groups of victims and oppressors haves and have nots and they would stage protests that they escalate into riots and violence and then they would go up the media with bribes and threats to blame the new leader of the new country for all the problems and then they would cultivate weak links in the military and when the country got panicky enough they would do a coup or a rigged election and replaced the leader of the soviet puppet. And then the the violence would stop for a while until the dust settles and they realized they just gave up their bottom form of government republic and now the rule top down by soviet dictator and and they they would even coop the media and have it release false polling data cryer to a rigged election showing the popular leader unpopular so when they would do the coup. Nobody would question it. What are some examples of that well. Lithuania and poland and hungary and bulgaria and romania and syria and So forty five countries fell to communist in this way. Now truman does nothing. He thinks the united nations that helped form will will bring world peace but the next president. Eisenhower he's faced with a question. Do nothing and let the communists takeover or fight fire with fire and so iran sides with the soviet union and nationalizes. Our oil and you think will be deal. Wait a second. Britain has no oil. There's no oil fields in britain and so in nineteen. oh eight. They formed the anglo iranian oil company. Right got you sorta arts of arabia right the british over there in the middle east and you know the angle iranian oil company better by that name. Bp or british petroleum british petroleum the angle iranian oil company and so in mazda the leader of iran's side with the soviet union in nineteen fifty-three nationalize the oil industry. Britain's out of oil. So they appeal. The eisenhower who approves the first. I operation to overthrow countries later. It's operation ajax and they went over and Since kermit roosevelt junior the grandson. A teddy roosevelt. He's an expert in foreign languages. He's the cia. Operative goes to tehran and he recruits mobsters and gangsters radical imams e stages protests and riots. At the begin to attack mosques and co ops the meeting with bribes and threats and cultivate weeks legs in the military and when the country got panicky enough they they marched input mazda under house arrest locked away for the rest of his life where he died in the installed. The shaw and the shaun loved america's we helped put him in and the cia. Did the same thing in guatemala. Nineteen fifty four the congo nineteen sixty dominican republic in chile. Nineteen seventy three and the kgb. Did the same thing with brezhnev helping yasser arafat to start appeal brezhnev hugging castro and helping him take over cuba and gaba mugabe in that farc in colombia the the venezuelan latin south america they had over a hundred different coups goo attempts in african countries in the chinese doing the same thing in the far east. This is called the cold war and the only difference this time around is these tactics seemed to be taking place on our own soil under the previous president not just was the irs co-opted and used for political purposes with lois lerner being in the president's office. A hundred forty seven times and then she turned it into this agency to go after conservative groups. It wasn't just the using of the lgbt agendas drive traditional valued people out of the military and coopting. It wasn't just coopting. You know the doj with era eric holder doing fast and furious getting guns to drug gangs and mexico. We to see that there are people in these government agencies that do not like president trump. And they've been working for four years to try to get rid of him with a false russian narrative of false ukrainian extortion narrative and and it. It just seems like they've just stepped it up one notch higher and used this. You don't have pallets of bricks being dropped off right where they're going to have. I spoken emporia kansas. I mean and they said they were going to have a peaceful protest and someone dropped off pal brick right and there was no construction going on in that area. Somebody just happened to drop is a tremendous amount of coordination. That happened all across the country and You know i'm from saint louis which is Thirty miles from ferguson. Actually spoken ferguson. Quite a number of times and The first baptist. Church in ferguson and And ninety nine percent of the people riding ferguson. we're not from ferguson. They were they were brought in by moore m. o. r. e. missourians organizing reform an empowerment. And you can google it more. Got thirty three million dollars from george soros and they had their trainings and intercity churches and they trained them. How to you know how. Lock arms and block highway. A you know forty four and they would train them how to give emotional. Tear filled addresses someone shoves a camera in their face. You know we were just standing in the middle of the highway. This car rammed into as a and Anyway after the rioting they were promised five thousand dollars. A person for trashing ferguson. And they weren't paid right away so they took over the board headquarters office and they started a hashtag. Cut the check campaign and began to get legs. Even the city council and saint louis condemn them for doing this and everything and then before the story went national. They hurried up and cut the check and pay them up. It was a rent them up. And they look the same people in a ball though. You know a bow charlotte north carolina at milwaukee and and You know these different things but here you have this model that we've seen being used All the way back to the brown shirts and all the way back to the kgb and so forth These tactics under the previous administration have been Seem to have been co opted by the deep state against the current president and so what piece of history do you think you'd be most instructive for us. How to solve this remedies exposure is one of the first things that That the first thing is to shine light on the problem in all the cockroaches runaway That truth is the antidote to the lies and So that's the first thing i think is important The second thing is realizing that it's the people that are the king A republic where the people are king ruling through representatives so we pledge allegiance to the flag into the republic. Were basically pledging allegiance to us being in charge of ourselves and so two might protests the flag. What they're saying is. I don't want to be the king anymore at protest system where i participated ruling myself. It's like really right. We have to remind ourselves that we are in charge and the politicians are our servants. We hire them. We fire that we both men we both about. They need to obey us. And when you look up the word usurping usurping is where somebody does something. They're not authorized to do and people let them get away with it and if you let them get away with it for long that becomes the new gopals. It's like sandlot football or you're out about none another Here right you'll you play that you know and then there's okay okay. That's the new then the next time none other boundaries over here they keep moving in that's called usurpation and it only happens when people are apathetic and they don't get involved like i completely agree with all of that and so How can people learn more about your american minute by the way bill. You're and be coming up on our program many times. But how can people subscribe to american minute and get behind what you're doing. Well thank you charlie. First of all honored to be on with you. And and you're brilliant and you're articulate and i Trying to learn that's all that's all. We have sixty three now. And i can tell that what i listen to you. Talk especially in an interview with you and ben shapiro's like man lightning fast back and forth. Man how can you think so. Fast so So it's a real honor to be on my website. American minute dot com. And i send out little history Things to try to bring focus one of my favorite coaches from arthur schlesinger junior and he was a pulitzer prize. Winning historian on john f. kennedy staff and the quote is history is to the nation. What memory is to the individual so if you can imagine an individual who has lost their memory. Maybe they have alzheimer's it's an older person. They forgot who they are. If forgot who you are really sad. Anybody can take anything away from them. We sort of have national alzheimer's here we are the his country. The planters the has ever seen with more individual opportunity and choices and and we forgot how we got here. We forgot who we are. And we're blindly staring off into space. Walsum you know Nursing home person just begins to take all of our is out of our hands and sometimes when we tell these stories and you're a great at it It's like little flicker comes back into people's eyes like oh that's who i am. That's who you are. That's what america is all about. That's well said well bill. Thank you for your commitment to our country and for explaining this history for us and we're going to have to have you back on very soon. So while is an honor to be on the people. Kiss repeat itself really. Just human nature repeats itself and history is the record of that so he studied human nature. And and you can pretty well Just all technology does his magnify. You get a good person like yourself. They'll use it for good. You get a person that's Is not good. They'll use all this fancy technology for something rob. So technology just magnifies what's in the human heart and histories the record of that. So amen bill. God bless you american minute. Dot com citizen. Thank you thanks so much listening everybody if you want to get involved a turning point. Usa go to deep usa dot com. Email us your questions freedom at charlie. Kirk dot com. You wanna support us. Go to charlie kirk dot com slash support. Thanks so much for listening. Everybody god bless speak using.

plato charlie kirk charlie university of berlin richard simmons hegel Charlie kirk Wallace henley bill federer Charlie francis bacon france Athens navy america europe coast south america Jonathan jonathan swift thomas borchert karl marx
SPECIAL: The Assassination of Iranian Maj. Gen. Qassim Suleimani

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1:34:59 hr | 1 year ago

SPECIAL: The Assassination of Iranian Maj. Gen. Qassim Suleimani

"You're listening to the podcast visit. WWW DOT past detroit dot com for information. I'm Calvin and you're listening to leading questions with Calvin more. This shows experiment incivility gathering people who disagree to sit down face to face and having them discuss their disagreements. Do we ever arrive at consensus. Sometimes what's most important is we've got. The conversation started well. Everybody thinks so much for tuning into another episode of leading questions Coven more or an unexpected episode of special episode If you've been paying attention to the news Some crap went down. We're three days four days into into the New Year into two thousand twenty and The trump administration has Ordered the killing of Major General Qassim Suleimani and succeeded and succeeded. WHO's an architect of Iran's regional security strategy and also killed Abdou Madi? How do I pronounce his Mahanta? Hunters Mohandas was a powerful Iraqi militia. Commander government official so The World Kinda tense. Right now is there's interesting at my job I kinda look Numbers of the market and I could see the stark drop off beginning on Thursday. It was kind of interesting because people don't know what's going to happen so Because things are happening in that particular region of the world who wanted to bring one of our great friends a Professor Seyyed Khan It's been a while since we've seen you for for coming in Sorry it's under you having to talk about this. Thanks for having me and you know my family always says that when you get busy usually means something's going Oh and wrong. Yeah let's go wrong with the world. I of course you know Steve or here you know Kinda went off script normally how I start things off but let everybody know. This is a special one off episode but Sade professor of Islamic Studies Islamic history at Wayne State University so well versed in in the history of of the area the region and new Director of global studies their promotion all right same. Same offense okay. Yeah so so next time things come somebody give him an air freshener though now. So what does that no but if anyone would like one of these a little Stick on sleeves that you can put on the back of your phone. I have got a half half an office full of him so Joel also the closet also comes as another broom otherwise known as is the phone booth what does that mean. director of Global Studies. We now have a global studies major within the classic and modern in Languages Literatures and Cultures Department at Wayne State and so with the The wonderful Commandeering of the First Director Dr. Laura Klein who who is now got quite a few things on her plate. He asked me if I would go ahead and take over the helm and so she's going to help me look out for icebergs but I think We've got a voyage in front of us all right realistically how long until you would be school. President Dean in Pan wanted to be. Okay okay well I mean right. Now we've got 'em Roy Wilson and from what I read in the newspapers. It seems as though there's quite a few cross fires that the president of Wayne State it has to deal with so I'm comfortable being ensconced in my office with my little credit cards and credit card. Thank you for teaching me what they're called and at that point. I mean leaving the the classroom completely new dealing with the grown-ups all the time seem to be a little like. That's not the reason most people get into it. I wouldn't think yeah I mean you know you have to kind of curb your profanity. Probably but I be able to say I know the president of Wayne State University universe. Let me call them up real quick end up so let let's dive right into questions here. Assayed a can you. Can you give us a brief in basic history like five minutes or less here. I've sat in your class. I know you mean usually what it takes me fifteen weeks. Yes yes For the purpose of the PODCAST. Can you give us a brief and basic history of Iran. Right well and when you do that can you go back to Burke's on going back to succeed. Yes thank you. So while we here in the United States count and our history in something less than two and a half centuries The Iranians can actually count it in Millennia two and a half millennia to be exact It is a very very storied civilization Known of course in the antiquity as Persia The dynasty which can speaks Goes back to yes. I do not know the speaking of you and for anyone who's watched the movie three hundred or read the graphic novel The old Great Shahs of not sunset but zirk sees Cyrus and Deriez Were in fact. The great emperors of a dynasty in an empire that spans across Asia minor well into Central Asia down to South Asia. And of course into what we know now is the Middle East so where did the Prince of Persia take place in all that. Oh they had the dagger that can make me go back in time and stuff. Yeah you know those kind of orientalists movies. Just treat that entire area as one conglomerate summer just like. The big country called Africa east of Europe. I believe in kind of a video game. I and east of Eden next to the land of nod. The derisive of which you speak is that the the figure in the book of Esther that is in the book of Esther not of course Mr Rucker from who the blowfish thankfully Gotcha Asia and so what we find then is a civilization which was Very sophisticated and one that had at its very base piece of political structure the notion of an emperor now fast forward into roughly is the About the sixth seventh century of the common era this is a period of time after a tremendous level of transition in conflict with Western empires both Greek and Roman at various times the Islamization cassation of Persia takes place starting around the seventh century and then continues Ever since in more recent times we have to take a look at how Iran has played a vital role in geopolitics during World War. One it was essentially split into zones of influence for Russia and Great Britain. A part of the reason for that is because the Russian empire and the British Empire didn't trust one another and when the war began Although they were until nineteen seventeen allies They wanted to keep Iran as a buffer zone but an area still which could help control when oil was discovered The British really jumped in In the early part of the twentieth century extracting from the then Iranian shaw an oil concession which essentially meant they had a monopoly on On the oil in fact the Anglo Iranian oil corporation although it sounds as though it was a partnership it was kind of like when Daimler owned cry or had a partnership. With Chrysler Chrysler was silent. Yeah and similarly we have that situation in In Iran now when World War Two began Iran played a vital role all again because it was essentially the only way for the allies to get supplies to the Soviet Union after Germany invaded on the Soviet Union's Western western border. So when the supplies we're going through this is where we find America's first real contact with with Iran. In fact a man by by the name of Schwarzkopf was commandeering and supervising the supplies. His son then becomes norman shortages or talk. Okay from the first Gulf War or you kids who remember that thing and The idea then of Iran being a vital cog it's growing Petroleum Economy and Industry Was a vital importance to the British particular because they had their. I'll see back then. The United States did have a footprint in the petroleum industry but it was really limited more to Saudi Arabia fast forward to nineteen fifty one and it's important remember that really since nineteen o five Iran was a constitutional monarchy. It had a parliament. It had prime minister In fact the government. It was very much fashioned. Like what you'd find in Great Britain except that unlike The crown the emperor still had more power than the legislature. Sure did in one thousand nine fifty one There is a new prime minister about the deck. Most of that comes into power on really a a mandate and and he made no secret that one of the first things he wanted to do was nationalized the Iranian oil industry now. According to international law any country has the right to nationalize any the industry within its borders provided pace fair market value for that asset now for the British. This of course was untenable. Because when you pay the the fair market value it is the present value in. It's simply cuts you off from a constant An ever-growing oil sector so what ends ends up happening is When Churchill comes back into power in nineteen fifty one? He tries to persuade the United States to do something about this and tries to leverage the idea. That mosaic is sympathetic to the Iranian Communist Party. Today party there Every country tree even in Europe even in Western Europe had some element of a Communist Party. So these things weren't necessarily dangerous well anyways At the time Truman was a little bit busy around the thirty eighth parallel in Korea. So he says I'll talk to you later but in nineteen fifty-three there's a new administration in the White House. And that is the Eisenhower Administration and more particularly particularly you have a secretary of State John Foster Dulles who is incredibly anti-communist with airport soon after this is the approach is named after outside Washington and Churchill gets another bite at the apple or at least the British too and he's able to persuade Eisenhower that something needs to be done about mosaic. Because if not it's going to create a domino effect where a lot of different colonies or former colonies might start to nationalize their respective active industries. And what the verdicts were particularly concerned. About which then ended up happening anyways. Three years later was when Nassir nationalized the Suez Canal in Egypt and At the time British oil had been nationalized by Britain. So they were okay with it as long as it was. You gotTa love the irony of that. So what ends up happening is John Foster Dulles was operating State Department but across the Potomac. His younger brother was operating out of Langley He was a director of the CIA. And this is Allen Dulles family dynamics over the years here well. Here's where it gets more interesting Allen Dulles Then dispatches the grandson of a a former president Teddy Roosevelt guy by the name Kermit Roosevelt distant cousin Franklin a distant cousin of Franklin over to Tehran with two briefcases with about one hundred hundred thousand. US dollars and in four days they're able to orchestrate a coup d'etat. By which subject is removed the shot comes back into full power and essentially becomes it comes then The puppet on a string for the United States okay and under the pretense that the Shah was staunchly anti-communist and would never ever look even look toward the Soviet Union The United States gave him carte blanche to go ahead and suppress any and all political dissent within the country and and in fact would aid Iran to do so by way of the CIA now fast forward to the Arab oil embargo of Nineteen seventy-three which quadruples the price of oil L. and makes a lot of the countries in the region incredibly wealthy. Well there really wasn't any demonstration of all of this influx of wealth. Both to the common man in Iran was benefiting just a few people who are very close to the Shaw. There was a lot of corruption dissent really gets going in the mid nineteen seventies. There are some secular educated intellectuals who have now come back to Iran taking the ideas of revolution and revolts To try to liberate the country there is a dissident who is in exile in Paris by the name of Khomeini he is a Of Rather Avant Garde thinker even within she slama as to. What is the role of the cleric politically and he is then making king proclamations and his sermons or getting smuggled into Iran on cassette tapes? Well by nineteen seventy eight. There is a real fervor of demonstrations nations in the streets. Things are getting very very volatile and the Shah's also having to deal with A personal crisis. He's been diagnosed with terminal pancreatic cancer. And and so now he starts to equivocate. He doesn't know exactly what to do. Should he leave and get treatment knowing that there may be a chance that you cannot return. Should he stay. And try to clamp things down and leave a legacy for his successor which would be his eldest son so he's really of two minds. As these protests intensify at the same in time the Carter Administration in Washington is less willing to defer to the shah to use brutal clampdowns and in fact they than mm used their influence on him to say. You need to pledge for reforms and you need to go easy on the people when the Shah does that it actually empowers the protesters turns to say if we can make him flinch then we can get Washington to lean on him more and so this then. Escalates it culminates. In December of nineteen seventy eight and finally after many in the army and the security forces have clamped down on unarmed protesters killing them and injuring them in the streets. The Shaw relents and on January sixteenth of Nineteen seventy-nine. He leaves Iran for good and he's essentially a king without a country and really king without a home and he is looking for someplace particularly to land and also to get medical treatment. Interestingly his really good friend the head of of the Chase Manhattan Bank David Rockefeller tries to have the shah. Ross John D.. Rockefeller this would be. I believe the great grandson. Great great grandson of John D. Rockefeller Who then uses whatever influence he can? Along with a personal note from Henry Kissinger another friend to try try to get the Shah into the United States on humanitarian grounds for treatment. That doesn't go too well with Iranian people. Two weeks after the Shah has left I Tyler Clemente returns victoriously to Iran and interestingly along with the secular intellectuals now forms a new government the the people of Iran want the Shah back to stand trial they feel as though the United States is blocking the ability for that to happen although the Shah doesn't spend very very much time in the US Carter says you need to leave He then tries to gain sanctuary in the Philippines of Ferdinand Marcos ultimately ultimately he ends up in Egypt Anwar Sadat takes him in and this is where the shod is a year later the Iran people also are demanding from the United States eight that they unfreeze the assets and allow the money that they feel that the Shah has in his personal bank accounts which they feel is property any of the state of Iran to be returned the United States Refuses in fact Chase Manhattan Bank had a lot of these accounts there and then as these protests intensify One of the targets is the. US Embassy in Tehran and the demonstrators. There get more and more agitated. And ultimately they are able to breach the walls and the fences of the embassy and they go in they detain several dozen Embassy officials. But what really riles them up. Is they find the CIA Bureau Office Inside the embassy and they've see shredding campaign going on and so if anyone has seen the movie the ARGO. You are familiar with this whole process the Iranians painstakingly reconstitute. These shredded documents to find find out the depth and the extent by which the CIA was helping the Shah and his secret police force the Savak so suppress the penguin and Batman Returns Peretti match which I thought without the flipper and shredders have gotten a lot better. They nineteen hundred those fireplaces work pretty well too much But this of course riles up the Iranian people they then free The Infirm D- The old and the pregnant staff of the embassy and they hold fifty two American Officials there hostage essentially for four hundred forty four days they are released least Interestingly enough and with no coincidence On the day that Ronald Reagan is inaugurated okay. There are no diplomatic relations nations since with Iran but there have been some really interesting interventions The same Reagan administration was involved in a four country deal to circumvent the Boland Amendment To sell weapons to the Nicaragua business partners course business business partners when it was a matter of convenience and in fact than Iran Played a very key role in allowing the Reagan administration to get. The weapons is to Nicaragua with the help of Israel and Saudi Arabia. My grandmother loved Oliver North. Loved him she was on his side the entire time. We'll do you remember fawn. John Hall Hurts Secretary and there were these really salacious parts of the The the Congressional Committee hearings where where she actually had to concede that she was smuggling documents out of the NSA in her underwear and seeing a bunch of grumpy old son rather live in. Briefs Yes get quite get quite enthusiastic about that was Was Kooky theater at. Its finest I find that there. There is only be because of the the Plethora of information in the world. I only have room in my brain for either fun hall or Jessica Han of the PT Et L. Scandal. At any one time. They're kind of the same person to me. Yeah yeah it's kind of like the genus so the relationship ship with with Iran has has been really no relationship since in nineteen eighty. Saddam Hussein declares war on Iran Hoping to exploit their distraction with getting their country back on track and that wore last eight years. It is one that Cost one point. Five million lives lives Iran eventually essentially wins because Iraq is not able to take over Iran But there's a lot of toxicity as a result of that because the United States on the the Arab states all backed Iraq quite explicitly in one thousand nine hundred eight summer United States shot down Iran Air passenger plane that had taken off from Iran heading to the United Arab Emirates crossing the Persian Gulf killing over three hundred passengers the US claimed that The plane's transponder was off and therefore they thought it was a hostile presence that has not been corroborated and to date the United United States is still not apologized either for that or for the role they played in ousting Mossadeq and fifty three. So you can tell. All of the tensions are fairly high between the two. The more recent issue with Iran though happens to be the proxy war that Iran has would Saudi Arabia And the other Gulf states and what we find is that when it came to the Obama administration he was looking to try to bring a little bit more balanced to the Persian engulf prior to nineteen seventy-nine and even Nixon said this that Iran and Saudi Arabia. Where the twin pillars of American foreign policy there and Iran had been author of the had been allowed to buy any non nuclear weapons in the US arsenal. We'll think certainly changed after seventy-nine but Obama was trying to level the field and to to allow them through the nuclear deal not just ending Iran's purported nuclear weapons program which again it's it's a question of whether they even I had one or the intention to have one but to be able to have. The United States exerts some leverage over Tehran. which hasn't in the last forty years? The problem is with the new trump administration He has decided to double down on the Gulf states of Saudi Arabia. The United Arab Emirates and Israel all of whom have a very hostile attitude toward Toward Iran and then brings us to the current situation and what happened with the the assassination of Sulejmani. All right let's back up about a year though Kent I wanted to ask a third questionable bypass number two because so it's pretty through it. I think most hiding most importantly that came out of that was that What happened this week that happen in a vacuum and I think people so often jump to conclusions based on what it means today without looking at where it's banned how we got to where it's going and I think it's extremely important to add the context? The text was that the contact you say bad man was killed. Let's move on but there's a lot more to the story knowing the history behind the context around him absolutely Stephen. I mean I think that again again when you're talking about a country and a people who measure their history In far more Zeros than we do and not only have a memory about that in a history about that but an identity that is based on that You're you're looking at things in in multiple people dimensions of complexity and nuance Something that the sound bites of today from many of our politicians and even our media really reduced used rubble. I think unfortunately we did the same thing with are in a relationship with Russia till is that there is the there. Here based on a very difficult tickled history in when you look at current leadership by today's is without looking at the last thousand years you don't get the whole story. Yeah I mean the the sum total of American military deaths In All Battles and wars that have been fought is under a million people well under under a million people. The Soviets lost more than ten times that just in World War Two twenty. Six million I think is because the first countries easy invaded. Let you can go back to the Mongols. I mean look at this destruction. Yeah give time less spring during the White House. Issued a statement from then National Security Adviser John Bolton saying the US has seen a number of troubling and escalatory Tori indications and warnings tied to the Iranian regime threatening the United States and Their interests we then sent an aircraft carrier strike group and land based bombers to the Gulf in response but Tensions have existed between Iran an and America for. I'm just saying forty of sixty years about forty forty years Why do you think the sudden escalation since the trump administration took over? Well I think we need to take a look at a couple of major Sure that are happening in the region one is that Iran essentially Outflanked the United States When it came to its client in the region Syria It was able to assess quite accurately that the United States had no stomach to really follow through in in Trying to bring about regime change with the Assad regime In in that particular country the Obama Administration recognize that the US And the American public really fatigued when it came to any kind of a war in In the Middle East as he was trying to withdraw from Afghanistan from from Iraq both of which were abject disasters He did not want to commit a to a third one in the area and as a result. Obama's Obama's strategy was to defer to America's so called allies in the region while the problem was way so called just so I understand sure. Well all I mean. Generally when we think about alliances we think about people swimming in the same direction or at least There swimming Within a certain linear you're a key kind of conformity and here. We had different players. WHO had different priorities? As to why they were in for the Saudis and for the United Arab Emirates they were involved in in Syria for a couple of reasons they wanted to stick it. To Syria's patron Iran This this is how proxy wars are fought the second Priority that they had was to ensure that if there is a transition of government in Iraq and in Syria sorry that it would not be a democracy The country is majority Sunni Muslim governed by very small minority sect called Ollie's which by the way aren't even the sect of she ism in Iran but Iran was pragmatic enough to say that they're there. She is enough for us right. Excuse me for for What were their regional strategic objectives? So for the so these they were fearful that The Muslim Brotherhood which was going to be bringing in a faith-based democracy was going to then be the standard in In Syria in a post Assad regime because given the overwhelming majority of Sunni Muslims there that would be the kind of government that came in. They saw that as being untenable. Because because it could create a chain reaction which could then spill over into the Gulf and people might have an appetite for faith-based democracies there and start checking out the monarchies one of the things that the Gulf monarchies have done very well is trafficked in the rhetoric of saying we provide stability and we also provide simplicity. Eliciting that you only have to deal with one dictator. As opposed to a million small dictators as Churchill might say when it comes to democracy so that was the prioritization position for the Saudis for the United States. It was trying to first of all. Stay out but then they got dragged in and then to deal with the extreme Extremism of Isis that was their main concern for the Turks. They weren't as concerned with Isis. They actually wanted to prevent the possibility of the Syrian Syrian Kurds being able to then cozy up to the West do west bidding on the ground there and then a create an opportunity to sue for for an independent Kurdish state at the expense of Turkey so Turkey actively then fought against the Kurds who are fighting against the the Isis forces over there. They really didn't care much about whether Assad was in power or not. That wasn't a big deal for them. So when it comes to that it shows how convoluted American policy. He was toward Syria. Didn't really know how to react. Trump was very much risk averse to get involved more deeply into Syria beyond the retina. The rhetorical flourishes and by then Russia had really entered the fray as In an unprecedented way in the Middle East and in many ways trump for whatever whatever reason has decided to hand Syria over to Russia. The problem is that in doing so. He's also handed it over to Iran that of course his the boss told them what to do and as an employee of Russia. I'm sorry which became problematic now at the same time. Trump is very close to Prime Minister Netanyahu in Israel and given the lack of knowledge that That trump has about well about anything but particularly about sophisticated indicated in complex Geopolitics and how he's famous for Listening to the last thing he says and then implementing that he he was getting an awful lot of pressure from Netanyahu that you need to do something about Iran Netanyahu was persuading Trump that Uh Iran was an existential threat To the point that Ken made Bolton was saying that Iran posed a threat to America. And its is interest. Well I think we need to Parse that even secretary state pompeo yesterday conceded that Iran posed no threat to America directly but when you're looking at concentric trek circles particularly in the area Perhaps there's more of a threat to Israel and to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states again. Nothing that would be seen as imminent Iran is simply too sophisticated and To methodical to do anything rash and what we then find is interestingly enough to politicians who are addled with an awful lot of domestic political nickel Conflict trump when it comes to his impeachments and Netanyahu with his indictments it will get to a little bit Let's Steve. Let's go to a question for real quick so last week. Orders from the president the US military dispatched drone killed General Qassim Sulejmani The architect of Iran's regional security strategy they also killed Abu Madi Alma Honda's a powerful Iraqi militia commander in government official given the current designation of the Iranian military as a terrorist organization. Should these killings be designated as assassinations could be considered warcrimes or is the killing of terrorists like Osama bin Laden. Well I think that Steve the United States will claim that it is the ladder. Her they will claim that that money and alkaloids forces as a whole are terrorist organizations. It's interesting getting that The United States three days ago designated Khattab Hezbollah Those who are allegedly behind the attack on the US embassy in Baghdad ugh debt to be a terrorist organization and the PM which is sort of the umbrella group of militias in the region similarly now have been designated as a terrorist I organization which has justified then the more recent And subsequent attack on militia positions by the United States military As of this morning. So this is an incremental increase in. What's going on but at the at the end of the day what we're really talking about semantics we call them militias is In that part of the world are known as resistance fighters Perhaps what's more important to understand is what is the reaction on the ground not not just to the killing of Sulejmani. There's a lot of symbolic symbolic value there but more from the standpoint that What does the United Estate's really want to present itself as being in the region I think the idea of being a benevolent piece Desiring Protective Force has completely gone out the window right now and in many ways the resentment that you see happening in Iraq arguably would be the same way that people in Turkey feel about in the killing of Jamal Kashogi which was an assassination in the sense that the Saudis decide to do their dirty work on someone else's soil and so the fact that the United States decided to use Iraq a country which from their estimation the US destroyed dismantled sold and created and put into disarray. Now is still lurking around and acting with impunity of violating sovereignty in order to Exact Act whatever our its strategic needs particularly with the president who seems to play hard and fast with the truth and whether the rationale that he's claiming is in fact even even true invalid This is not a good thing for the United States there. Who here's a question for me on this he said? Hey it's it's semantics but I guess I'm a brass tacks guy. People are looting are losing their lives. You know people are being killed. And when the Nazis did what they did they were country redetermined that the Jews were bad people and they needed to be exterminated yes combatants of any kind but this country made a determination. It's a sovereign nation. They made that and they started. Connolly's all these people. Then we put those. The Nazis trial wants to beat them. Right we knew what you did was wrong and you knew what you did was wrong and we put them all in jail. The ones that we could find and then we continue to hunt them. Today is still around and put them in jail so my question on this does it go beyond semantics. Who May is there an outside organization that determines is because we just depending on where you're standing we either assassinated this guy or we just killed another terrorist right but is there like when we put some people on trial now? for warcrimes. Hey Great So is there an outside governing body that can look at the United States and go or the trump administration and say we're any administration that comes along after this does anything along these lines yet. No that's a war crime and I don't care that you're the president of the United States dates. We're GONNA put you on trial because you're the head of state you're the one who ordered this. That's a war crime. We haven't had to happen. But is there an outside organization that cannon would ever Verdoux this or does America can have this place in the world. Where doesn't matter what we do so big? It doesn't matter we'll look I mean first of all the axiom might is right really is in play here and the way that we see it For the question that you're asking is that the United States is not a party to the international criminal courts. So they're gonNA say you can go ahead and send us a subpoena. We're not showing up anyways. Which is kind of eerily reminiscent about how this White House feels toward the its own congress so that let's be fair though I think that's it's every administrations ever existed in? The White House not subjected themselves to The Hague yet. So it's nothing new and and I know I'm just finding this out right now. I I think it's also I mean to be intellectually honest and fair. We have a former presidents. I mean the prior president in fact President Obama who ordered the assassination assassination of US citizens on. Were lucky. Who Kim can made okay? He's an enemy combatant. He's a terrorist but I mean he was certainly deprived of due process rights but then Or also ordered the fascinating well not even the assassination the murder because he was not a political operative of his sixteen year old son it was also a US citizen so I mean this idea that using extrajudicial killings and flouting the rule of law is then the exclusive province of those who are in a stronger position to do that. But I think it's important to recognize that the United States is no longer the only power on the block who can act with that level. Live impunity China and Russia are in that position. They act just as brazenly and so the idea of having any kind of moral indignation over over them from an American standpoint is is really not not an option but it also is important to recognize that the Russians and the Chinese are now the patrons of Tehran and as a result of it. It's probably the only kind of guarded optimism that this thing is not going to get out of hand because Russia and China are not going to allow it to get out of hand but the fact that the domino effect of trump pulling out of the nuclear deal in order to mollify Netanyahu Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia Mohammed bin Zayed out of the United Arab Emirates is a catastrophe of a proportion that. I don't think I've seen in American foreign policy in a longtime longtime including Vietnam because we have essentially now given Iran completely over to China and Russia. I think related to that last question We haven't talked about what the definition of terrorism is now. They differ in depending on who you're reading but it was always my I'm interested in what your definition terrorism because mine has always been a non-state actor with an ideology that's being promoted in this case. This was an employee of Iran. So when we say we call this person a terrorist If you mean it I think we're watering on the word terrorist of the point doesn't meaning they because this is a state after doing the work of the state. If it wasn't this person was going to be the next person. So what is your you know. How do you define terrorism? And is this. Does this fit whereas this this just like Ran The word Communist in the fifties. I think I think Steve. The point that you're making is so important because I think the word terrorism has become like the term pornography in the estimation of former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart. He couldn't define it but he said he knew it when he saw right. And it's dangerous. I if the United States now wants to brand Selemani to be a terrorist because if you're pointing the finger you've got three pointing back at you and if they wanted then go ahead and expand the definition to include the actions of state actors then raining down Shock and awe or hell on people through drones or by whatever other means certainly than allows others to use the same moniker when it comes to American action and and of course the idea that people are not necessarily immune maybe legally immune by not showing up at the Hague but impractical terms. There is nothing to stop. We did them and given America's receding position in geopolitics today. It's not a good idea idea whatsoever. It's it's it's somewhat said finding this out that we don't. There's there's almost no accountability. I mean there's there's accountability ability within but that's like the police investigating themselves after shooting. We investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing. I I think that there is accountability. Calvin that's the problem though is for all of us who grew up on schoolhouse rock And thought that this is the way the world operates and that there is a certain. I'm kind of structure and one can have a reliance on on the system and particularly the rule of law. I think what we realized that we were watching the wrong thing. I think that this is not so much schoolhouse. Rock as it is. Orange is the new black for judge. DREDD or judge. DREDD the idea that we're we're essentially using prison rules now and And the the idea that whoever is the king of the of the of the yard is going to prevail and given how things are shifting right now I mean one of the things. He's a nobody is talking about at all is the fact that the new Belton Road Initiative which is China's super project of resurrecting the Socorro. Right from China all the way to Rotterdam in the Netherlands don't call it Holland anymore The Netherlands it's going through Iran and so the idea then that China will allow anything to jeopardize that is absolute folly so it has more than just a little bit of skin in the game. They are going to go ahead and double down on protecting it. They have many more clubs within their golf bag bag by which they can push back on the United States. And so it's going to be very interesting to see what the discussions are going to involve when President trump goes to Beijing Asian whenever he goes to Beijing for phase. Two of these these trade negotiations because Iran is definitely going to be a on the agenda as it is with Russia. So I I I was just going to be before we get to the next Published question one situation in world history that came to my my mind as soon as this As soon as jumped up and admittedly the biggest difference is the fact that it's a declared war is there seems to be a parallel here between and this and in nineteen forty three when we located and Admiral Yamamoto and killed him. We Killed Yamamoto about say. Inside and what killed jury to how how was how oh was how was that any different Better or worse than what happened a couple of days ago. Well I think that There are those who you're going to in fact invoke Yamamoto Because for them they're going to look at this fina typically as saying well we're in a state of war with Iran Except we're not Word we've watered down the war again a term that almost has no meaning anymore or it goes into these abstractions like the war against terrorism terrorism. or The you know. Nancy Reagan's war on drugs the last time anybody declared war on anybody and it doesn't happen. December December eighth nineteen forty one right but but then from our in. Our wars have been declared around the world why other nation but but I just think that it then behooves the United States is to either change its rhetoric when it comes to this or go ahead and pass the necessary legislation which would require congressional amendments to then say that an article one Obligation of Congress and right no longer applies. And you're giving that over to article two and the executive Because right now you're absolutely right on a very cynical note All of these are not only Casaus subject to the war powers act but in many ways even the war powers act is being followed the idea of congressional authorization. The idea of congressional no notification is really not even occurring and that's problematic enough but when it comes to Sulejmani it also has to do with the fact that many of our allies allies who have skin in the game in the region including European allies weren't notified and consulted either so speaking of Cynicism Skeptical Cal's cales skeptical You know there's a little bit earlier in kind of cut you off because I wanted to dive deep into this but the the timing of this for some seems a little off not to air or legitimize conspiracy theories but we're going to give Aaron legitimize some conspiracy theories. When President Clinton was embroiled in political sexual scandal scandal? There was a military action to distract from or it said to distract from his impeachment now the bombing of Kosovo. Yes and there was also the The bombing of Khartoum and the Baby Formula Factory. Yeah So now both the president trump and Israel's Sir Leon who are embroiled in scandals and we have another military action from countries that are quote unquote Tough on Iran is is the timing suspect or do world events. Just keep happening despite our scandals and this kind of comes out of the conversation or a meeting that I posted yesterday a day of trump's twitter posts from when he was when I think Obama was running that Hey you know rest assured Obama's going to start a war with Veyron to get reelected and you fast forward now we've got a re election year. We've got trump you know under you know essentially indictment by the House of Representatives and and Vendor Yahu caught up in his own scandal that we've got this going on I'm going this looks like wag the dog if you remember that movie And then I wanna I wanNA say the fourth season of House of cards where they just decided to make everybody fearful by starting a fake war. So what are your thoughts on. This is is this to distract or does the new cycle keep going to world events. Just keep going and you got to address them. Despite the fact that these scandals are happening at the same time well first of all the beauty is that. There's a tweet for everything we we got that in the archives. You WanNa know what happened next. Just scroll forward if Obama blow up the White House to win in it then you should be afraid and rally. Move Your Office on the White House. What's IT GONNA take? We say Mitchell play converse to get out of this world but missile take the issue the issue of proportionality or shall we say the lack of it when it comes to what just happened with Sulejmani brings us more into conspiratorial way of looking at it because if this was in fact an imminent threat then it seems as though we would go after the threat itself not the architect of the threat because the architect has already planned the threat but there was no Action taken against whatever this. The so-called threat is so that seems to be extremely circumspect at the same time you've got Sulejmani who is creating mischief with various Proxies on the board whether it's Hezbollah whether it is the p. m. f. in Iraq or a great guy not no not at. Aw but when you do the math he was sixty two years old. I believe when he died and he actually outlived his life. Expect he was sixty two. And when you when you do the math it seems like there's a high probability if not proof you would know better than I that he may have been guarding the embassy in Tehran. In one thousand. Nine hundred seventy nine or eighty. Well what we do know is that in nineteen eighty. He was fighting in the Iran Iraq. Guar there are photographs that show him tying his sneakers On the battlefield which first of all amaze me that they wear sneakers on the battlefield in faster sir. Sir can run faster but also that he wasn't wearing any socks and then I realized you know that that was the Miami Vice era which he's about to the sleep the cat down the camel why he was wearing -til on the battlefield. That's really weird. You know we can go ahead and see all that footage which now through the Lens of the Soundtrack of Yon Hammer but but Getting back to the point of Of of money. This is an individual who ironically enough did more to neutralize is in Iraq than donald trump ever did And in fact there is quite a bit of indication. That Sulejmani was Working with American forces in in painting targets on the ground so that the United States could then strike In in Iraq. So this is this is a complex individual and the kind of binary by looking Adam is whether he's good or evil just again in a postmodern world just you. You really can't apply that kind of architecture To to the debate. But it's it's it's it's curious isn't it that You've got a guy sitting above the thirty eighth parallel With quite a few nuclear weapons and yet His recklessness closeness and his imminent threat is is is seemingly non existent just because he writes love letters to president but he's also got nuclear weapons and as opposed to trying to get nuclear weapons right agreed but at the same time can learn on the world isn't it. It's I don't know if it's the second largest arsenal because I mean I think it's still not bigger than China's and China's gotta be bigger than his and. Yeah but I mean it almost impossible for the size of their country. Well how many do you need. Every we don't do that up. North Korea's second. That's rush limbaugh rushing Israel Israel does now the second largest source. I think out of it. It got us the United States. They get the first against Russia and I believe after that is Pakistan. Okay Yeah when when you're getting into the hundreds not two thousand the first country you get is Pakistan and India's and far buying that India's not far behind that has a lot to do with But but the idea you're right point taken that they already have nuclear weapons but there's all kinds of things that can be done to destabilize North Korea but here we've got just a tremendous bromance going on there It it astounds me as to why. There's this obsession with Iran except again to see that the deals that trump has is the relationships and the kind of almost Benghazi influence that some World leaders have over the president Have then helped perpetuate the demonization of Iran and Really I think clouded the thinking and the judgment that that should be used here so Iran on just a recently not sure exactly how recently but yesterday oh yesterday just announced another huge find of crude oil Does that does that have any Any bearing on the situation. I think that the fifty three billion barrel caches is actually a little bit older news in that There was a discovery for a while. It's it's a sizable amount. Hit The news cycle yesterday so I mean there. There is for some particularly Louis. The truly delusional that Taking out Sulejmani will create enough upheaval within Iran and among the Iranian people people. This is the first step toward regime. Change that is a spectacular misreading of Iran's history The anthropology of the people and the the political landscape if anything situations like this caused people to circle the wagons and double down so Khamenei already has his successor picked as the supreme leader. Most likely it's going to be his son. The status quo regarding President Rohani and Foreign Minister. Zarif will stay unless US hardliners. Now call for more action instead of what they see as a tepid one from Ronnie from Zarif is how many son also and I appeal. Oh Yes yes yes yes he. In fact he'd be aggrandize holder. They they will not allow somebody with fewer chevrons to tell the turban to take over. Okay so That is just a again mystifying. To think that this is going to topple it and again the people around president trump people like John Bolton people like Rudy Giuliani. who were on the payroll of a formerly designated terrorist organization? The majority may help out of Iran. He seems to have drunk that cool. Eight quite Quite well who's upheaval. Good for anyone. Yeah actually arbitragers It's really good for stock speculators leaders who make money when it's going up and down but don't make money when it's just sort of flat one great for my smart people make money when the market's it was to do it was too. I was very busy at work yesterday. So there's a lot of fear right now obviously Various countries are advising their citizens not to travel to the Middle East or to get out entirely. Only Iran is vowing revenge for these killings. There are rumblings of war what can or should people realistically expect in the coming days. Well I think think that if they are fearful of visiting places like Iraq and others it may have less to do with what would be an Iranian response. What's there than it would be from a Western response? I think what the Sulejmani episode has demonstrated is that There there are no circuit breakers the United States and and its its allies will will strike wherever they feel. It's necessary and with impunity. We saw this happening with Even the United Arab Emirates a few years ago when a an Iranian nuclear scientist was was killed in what was a fairly botched up job by By the Mossad It really upset the Australians because they were using fake Australian passports in the process so I don't really see there being much much of a threat other than to gin up this world war three. He's been overstated. It has been very overstated And part of the reason for that is is that contrary to the framing of how Iran is as an irrational Wild eyed uncivilized an unpredictable force. There the exact opposite of that they are cool customers they They know how to play the long game. They have time on their side as mick would say and In many ways they're not only going to wait out The United United States. They're going to wait out the west. They are very much positioned for the new future. One that is Tilting toward the East again. Thanks thanks to China and Russia being their patrons thanks to the The the belt and road initiative Thanks to the idea that we have now a president who either doesn't really know what he's doing. and Or is taking cues from people who have different agendas than what is best in in America's national and TRAE. I mean I've always looked at international relations as Jenga move. You know it's it's all related to each other from the best of your ability do in the United States operating under the old ideas of Realpolitik or do you think that The people who think trump can't look pass tomorrow are right in that United States here is just acting really narrowly. Or did they have a long game too because it's not just the person in the White House that makes these decisions. We we give blame. And we give praise to the person sitting in the Oval Office but at the same time. We've got a lot of people who know a lot of information about the region Who you know can recite the same history? We've been discussing today and can kind of look out over the next ten twenty years We talked about Barack Obama early. I think he was a person who who played it by one hundred the years not by one year To the best of the worst he was a pragmatist. Not In so there is a lot of realism there. But as far as you can see I mean do you think that. There's that realpolitik that kissenger sort of You know looking forward idea or is this really an administration that's looking to. WHAT'S WE'RE GONNA work today without a consideration? What's GonNa Happen Tomorrow Ma? Well first of all I was just trying to recover from mental image that trump doesn't play Jenga but twister. So I don't WanNa see that we're putting that in your head trying to get that one out let let it. They don't I think Obama was unfortunately and may unfortunately be the last American president of Rail L. Politics because trump certainly isn't that he is beholden to ideologues and he's also beholden to people who may be pragmatists within their own respective countries but that doesn't necessarily aligned with American interests. The second thing is that I don't see anybody on the other side of the political aisle demonstrating mistreating. Anything that would remotely represent or reflect row politics with the possible exception of Maybe Biden and maybe clover Shar are everyone else is into woke culture which seems to be much more visceral than cerebral much more short-term than looking at the long game so so things don't bode well for the future of American leadership when it comes to this because I don't think that they know that you have to spell rail politics with a K.. Well professor say Yukon. Thanks so much for for coming in and enter questions today. Hey glad to talk about such a cheerful subject. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah yeah the yeah the Yeah uh-huh yeah yeah the uh-huh yeah Yeah the yeah. Yeah the the the uh-huh uh-huh yeah. Yeah uh-huh yeah. Yeah yeah the thank you of our guests. Ask for being here tonight Love Your your stories your vulnerability especially my God like it's all up in my chest right now. So thank you so much for all of you being here tonight and for those of you listening. Of course Thanks so much for listening to leading questions Calvin more make sure you check on our website leading questions now dot con where you can find Oliver episodes from this season and the previous five seasons at this point BIOS calendar upcoming topics and even suggest topics for us to talk about you. You can send US emails at hello leading questions now dot com. We'll get back to you. Don't forget you can find us on apple podcast Google podcast soundcloud and of course the podcast APP stitcher pitcher please usually says well. That's right. That's the alcohol leaving things out our pockets straight out please review and we will see you next week.

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