1 Episode results for "Kenneth Copeland Joel Osteen"
Justin Peters and Word of Faith
"Welcome to Romans road. The podcast of me Eddie. Roman this is where we talk about. Evangelism and apologetic then all kinds of Christian stuff today. I'm coming at you from within the Great Corona virus plague. I'm hidden away safely. I have a interview today with Justin. Peters Justin Peters is a man who has done a lot of teaching and investigating on the subject of the health and wealth movement. Some call it the name it and claim it basically the teaching out there that says if you have enough faith in God he will give you what you want. Be that wealth or health or basically solving all your problems and so people in this movement would be guys like Kenneth Copeland and Bethel church up in Redding California. They're kind of like the new version of of this movement and as I go on my facebook recently. I'm seeing a lot more of this kind of teaching out there. So for instance an article. Not Too long ago. It said Charismatic preacher Kenneth Copeland tries to heel corona virus through the TV screen. And you might have seen this video really creepy looking guy. He is a tried and true. False teacher been around for a long time scandal. A Lotta people. He still manages to rip people off all the time and so his latest thing as he is looking at the TV screen and he's got his hand up and he's basically saying if you touch my hand through the TV screen. You will be healed of the corona virus so Not sure they're going to him from hospitals yet to ask him to help them out. But so yeah. So Kenneth Copeland is a You know well known false teacher. Unfortunately he is also believed to be a real teacher of some sort by lots and lots of people and then another article on the Sacramento Bee. So this is S. A. C. B. E. DOT COM SEC be dot com a recent article of. There's a headline California mega church cancel services and trips to local hospitals to faith. Heal the sick and this is talking about Bethel Church and reading and think about that headline so. The church is canceling their trips to the hospital to heal sick people because of the crow virus. Some kind of wrong there you know if if if these people really have the power to heal the sick all the time then. What's a little Virus GonNa do. Stop them so anyway. Articles like this just kind of prove the ridiculousness of people who claim that they have power from God to heal people whenever they want and this kind of thing so anyway this is the faith movement the health and wealth of Prosperity Gospel and so. I thought this would be an appropriate time to unleash this interview with Justin. Peters I actually recorded this a couple of months ago but Now is better time than any to release this if you are not a Christian and you see articles like this where you have all these people like Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland Joel osteen all these different people who claim that if you believe in their version of God their version of Bible teaching if you believe that if you have enough faith and you're going to get what you want whether it be money or health or whatever and you look at the looking at the stuff and you're saying this is kind of hard to believe. Well it is hard to believe. It's not true it's unbelievable. The Bible actually talks a lot about false teachers. Jesus Christ himself talked a lot about wolves in sheep's clothing in their desire isn't for your good. It's for your money. It's for your destruction all kinds of things like that. So so yes. These teachers do exist. Yes they do. Call themselves Christian teachers they actually use the name of Jesus bought. Unfortunately they are wolves chiefs clothing. And we're going to let Justin tell us more about that. Just two quick technical note this was recorded in the middle of a convention hall during a conference for the most part. The people in the background aren't too noticeable but at times they got pretty annoying. But anyway you'll be able to get through that. The first thing I mentioned is an experienced I had with a faith movement person. I wanted to get Justin S- thoughts on that so I asked my question and he took it away from there so here we go more often. The NAH I will run into someone who agrees with me in all the main doctrinal points of Christianity but they will be very into something else you know I was. I was preaching a little while ago and I was at the bottom. I was kind of next to appear next to me. There's this big huge structure and this lady's their opener preaching. She's a many. She's agreeing with me and then at the end of it she says Do you do any miracles? And so I said no. I don't I don't and she said well. You should be able to do miracles because because Jesus said we're supposed to be able to do these things and I have seen that kind of thing in certain areas if I know there's like a big pentecostal church around all kind of see more. There's people around there but you know this is something that you are dealing with all the time and so for the people who are listening. Who might not be familiar with your your seminar yet. The teachings done. Can you give us just a little? A little overview of what it is you do. I have a seminar. That's entitled Clouds Without Water. Which is a reference in the book of Jude Verse Twelve? It's one of the ways that he refers to false teachers. The picture that Ju- draws is that false teachers have the appearance of having some nourishment but none ever falls from them. They they leave the ground below them dry in parts but my seminar deals specifically with what's called the word of faith movement that's the proper term given to a movement that's more commonly known as the health and Wealth Gospel the Prosperity Gospel Naming and claiming Gospel. The teaching that. If you are a Christian it is always God's will for you to be wealthy and it's always God's will for you to be physically healed You should never be sick or if you do get sick then. Physical healing is guaranteed. As long as you have enough faith as long as you sow a seed in some preachers ministry. So you can reap harvest As long as you make the right positive confessions. Then you can activate hailing God obligated to respond to whatever you confess The money that you so and It's our it's our birthright if you will as Christians to be wealthy into be healed It's led by people such as Benny Hinn. Kenneth Goi Copeland Jesse duplantis dollar Joseph Prince Joyce Meyer Joel Osteen. These are just some of the more prominent names and and Unfortunately Eddie this stuff was created here in the United States we in the United States of America. We created this this false gospel and we have now exported it to the rest of the world and it is the face of Christianity around much of the world today. Now for many of us we've seen tbn we've seen different channels where you know. It almost becomes like a comedy among Biblical Christians and they see these things that kind of joke about it. 'cause stuff is so outrageous that people could possibly believe this stuff yet for a lot of people. It's not a joke. This is a real experience and I know for you. You came out of a background and you actually. We're we're in a time of you in your life where this was a very personal real thing to you. Can you tell us about that? Yeah I was born and reared in southern Baptist Church That's mob the logical background. I suppose but when I was at a teenager a neighbor of mine came up to me by the way I guess I should preface I. I have several palsy. I was born with cerebral Palsy Walk on crutches and use a scooter for long distances but When I was a teenager this neighbor of mine came up and he said Justin God has spoken to me and he's told me that he's going to heal you. Wow as long as you have enough faith how did that make you feel Well you know I I had no I thought I was Christian at the time I wasn't but but when I hear this guy say God spoke to me. I didn't have a biblical theological framework to say. Now wait a minute are no. He didn't right I just thought he did. I thought that God spoke to this guy and He told me about a faith healer. Who is coming to my hometown named Nora? Lam L. E. M. Chinese lady who's dead now but I was very very expectant on. I wanted to be healed. I wanted to be free of my cerebral palsy. And free of my crutches here wanted to be able to run and jump and play like all the other kids you know and do do those kind of things so I was very hopeful about it and Long story short went to see Norrland Fully expecting to be healed and obviously it was not he'll so that was my first exposure to the movement and Let me also say real quickly. Though that some have made the accusation against me that the the reason that I do these seminars is because of that like a revenge right revenge yeah bidder of. I get that a lot but I I think I can honestly say that. Nothing could be further from the truth. I understand now that I'm actually am and I have a much healthier understanding of the sovereignty of God Healthier Theology of human suffering and the purpose behind that that There's not a bitter bone in my body about not being healed I accept this. God's good providence in my life It is it what he is decreed and His grace is sufficient for me is strength is made perfect in weakness and in if I have to live the rest of my life with several palsy. It's okay you know. I've got all of eternity to live without it. Well the amazing thing and the sad thing about the faith movement. These teachers you you. You listed as they present a view of Christianity that basically says any kind of suffering is out of place and he kinda suffering shouldn't be there and so in in that kind of theological background. It would make sense that if you're sick or any any kind of things wrong with you. It should be healed. That's the way things should be. But when you study the Bible for yourself and just read what it says you find a very different picture. You find suffering if you find suffering all over the Bible yes and it is. It is part of the fallen world we live in so so that alone is just. I think the big tragedy of this this movement in that it doesn't allow normal people who have their faith in God to just go through the normal suffering that happens in in human life that's right told tragedy that's right so so obviously you're someone who comes from a background it's more than just. L. Let's make fun of these crazy people on TV. This was a personal thing. Just from hanging around the the exhibits arena. I've met people who kind of looked over at unit. That's Justin Peters and I learned this this this woman. I've actually talked just yesterday. I talked to a couple of people who basically were saying that because of your teaching they came out of the faith movement. And so. That's that's A. That's a beautiful thing. How often do you talk to people who are still in it and going through it and dealing with this stuff all the time Eddie All the time now here at this conference llosa's doctorate sound convert so we don't really have a lot of people. Walking around that. Are that are following Benny Hen or Joel. Osteen here but tons and tons of people. Tell me that they were in it. God delivered them out of it. And that's what you would expect from a Christian. A Christian can be in serious error for a season. But once he sees the truth from God's word if he's truly regenerate he's GonNa been the need to that truth And and God pulls people out of that deception of the Holy Spirit is not a weakling if he's strong enough to save us a strong enough to deliver his out of deception. Yeah I mean all the time. I get emails every single day now Eddie from people all over the world that Tell me that God by his good graces in providence have has pulled him out of this deception you know and now just so. I don't forget if someone wants to get a hold of your your conference that's on DVD or any kind of your teaching. Where can they go? You have a website. Yeah they can go to my website. Justin Peters Dot Org. Okay Justin Peters Dot Oregon I feel kind of funny about the name of our website. I promise I'm not trying to be narcissistic. I'm just not I is Eddie. Roman DOT COM. Oh I feel better now. I can relate so whether you have friends and family in this in this movement or not. So what what what do you call? I called the faith movement. What do you call this? Yeah Oh the technical term word of faith but I usually say word faith or okay New Apostolic Reformation. That's kind of a twin movement toward a faith. It's and really what we're seeing today. Is that word of faith in a are are just blending together. Just kind of becoming one monolithic stream. Ar It seems. I kind of look at it as an old heresy in new wrappings with new graphics and just kind of more catering toward the younger crowd. You know so. So yeah whether you have someone that you know personally in this movement or not you need to get Justin's materials and check this out because this will affect you at some point if you talk to people because it's growing and there are probably people around you who are in this very sad and yet very important for Christians to be ready to help. People Guide them out of this movement suggestion. One thing I'd like to do here is tell you about an experience. I had when I was out witnessing and I'm going to get back to this peer story. I started talking about a little bit at the beginning. I don't WanNa go through it and just get your take on why she would believe the things she said. And this this kind of thing so I get done preaching a sermon. And there's a big pierced next to me. I'm the way it's set up You're you're on the kind of on the street. And then there's a peer next so you're right next to the base of it and this lady she you know applauds my little sermon. I did there on on the street and then she asked me why. Why don't you do any miracles? And I didn't know what to say. So what is she thinking? So I'm a Christian in her eyes. I just preached a Gospel Message. And she's thinking whereas America's like is it she would say that yeah well She's clearly been influenced by word of faith. And my guess is she's probably in it. Hook Line sinker from what she's saying but see has the same basic fundamental. Herman flaw that the word faith New Apostolic Reformation Bill Johnson Bethel Hill Song. All these guys make they take things that they see that are described in the Bible and they think that all of those things are prescribed and not everything that is descriptive is prescriptive. I believe that everything that is recorded in scripture as having happened happened. I believe the Red Sea parted. I believe that God made a donkey talk. But you know what those things are described. But they're not prescribed I. I haven't seen any red parting sees today. I haven't seen any talking donkeys today if you have seen any talking donkeys. You probably need to spend some time. He's in chapter five and lay off the sides. These things happen but they're not considered they're not supposed to be normative. They're not supposed to be Prescribed as normative the apostles had the ability to perform signs and wonders. They had the apostolic gifts To Be Apostle you had to meet three requirements. You had to be a first person eyewitness of Jesus. He had to see. Jesus Reyes from the dead. You had to be directly appointed by Christ to be an apostle and you had to have the ability to perform the signs and wonders of an Apostle heal the sick on occasion. Raise the dead young cast out demons. The apostles did these things Eddie but Christians at large did not do them not even in in the in the Apostolic Age. You don't see believers at large going around performing signs and wonders in fact you can look at acts chapter to acts Chapter Five. Both of these chapters say that the paraphrase here the both of the tax mini signs and wonders. Were taking place at the hands of the apostles among the people So you don't see Christians. At Large. In general performing signs and wonders postles did And just a couple of exceptions of that with With Stephen in Philip. But that power was conferred onto them by the apostle. So but we're well past the Apostolic Age. There are no more apostles today and if there are no more apostles today than there are no more apostolic gifts today right now as I say that I want to be careful. I do believe that God heals people today but only when it is his sovereign well-to-do. So but I do not believe that somebody actually anyone. Today possesses the gift of healing. Those are two different things. This is a good thing to clarify. What would be the difference so there? I believe healings still happen today. As as do you buy what the difference between God healing someone and someone having the gift of healing what what is? What's the difference so if if someone had the real apostolic gift of healing which they don't but let's just have fun here? If they did they would be able to go up to a sick person. With one hundred percent success instantly verifiably. He'll that person right on the spot. No psychosomatic healing no gradual healing over time. Grad slow recovery know a real healing. So it'd be like what you see in the Bible based it would be what you see in the Bible people cone up behind the apostles trying to touch them just because they know they're going to get right right. Yeah you see them. You would see them raising the debt. Nobody's doing that today. Nobody's doing now. You know this is such a great thing to know not just towards the faith movement but also sometimes an atheist will be criticizing you and making fun of you say why. Why can't you only? And there's actually an argument out there among atheists. Why doesn't God heal amputees with but just knowing this I mean it just? It's such a simple explanation. It is yeah. It is prescriptive versus de script. That's just a great concept to have with everything in the Bible. You know if the error is thinking since so and so did this in the Bible that means God wants me to do that. Same thing too and like you said. Nobody's parting the Red Sea's today because I was a one time event first specific purpose and we shouldn't assume that God's going to allow us to do those same drains that's right yeah and tangential to that are related to that Off I hear charismatic. Oh will Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. So if he healed people in the New Testament New Testament his ministry of the apostles healed and Jesus has not changed then. The same thing that Jesus did in the states should be happening today. The GOTCHA got you without one Yeah Oh yeah. I've heard that many times but that's that's bad logic because they're logic breaks down very quickly in with a very big in clear and obvious example. Okay he's the same yesterday today and forever so he does not God does not change so you know we should be doing things that were happening in Biblical Days Right. All right Are we still sacrificing animals? He's the same yesterday today and forever great does not change well. They were slaughtering millions of animals in the Old Testament. Why aren't we doing that today? Can we still not mixed fabrics in our clothing and all that Yummy just ad Infinitum here? So it's their logic. Breaks down what they don't understand is at Yes it is true that God does not change Christ does not change immutability of Christ immutability of God. But God's revelation has progressed and through the centuries culminating in the person of Christ so it's not that God himself has changed his character and his nature's on change unchanging but his revelation has progressed. You know that's why we're no longer doing animal sacrifices and the all these old testament laws and rituals and things and feasts and festivals. We no longer have to keep an observe his revelations progress and that's a fundamental harm neutral error that That charismatics may we'll even with the miracles of Jesus and the disciples wasn't the purpose of those to mark the coming of the Messiah. It's right so I'm GONNA move on with my my lady at the Pierre Story so that was kind of found foundations. Or you know I I said I don't do miracles and then and then I basically said well. We don't do miracles anymore because Jesus has already come. I'm not here doing trying to do miracles to mark the sign of his his coming by very quickly. She basically started saying well. According to the Bible we should be able to do whatever we want. We should be able to move mountains right and and so I actually asked her. I said there's one over there I did. I said there's a mountain over there Can you move it and then I looked around. I said actually I don't see him out and I said how about this. Peer this peer standing next to me. Can you move it? And she kind of looked at it and I said I will get a piece of chalk and mark where the base of the peer is. I just want you move over an inch. You don't have to move it much and she actually said I don't WanNa do that. 'cause there's a lot of people around here and I don't want to hurt anybody actually said that. Wow and and then I basically just stuck on that I said you really picky could move move that and then after the law she goes well. I don't think the Bible's really talking about moving stuff literally and it was. It was interesting because one minute. She was very adamant. And then the next minute it was like because if it was if the first time in her life she had actually thought about. It's like well maybe it doesn't really really mean that. Now that's a verse. That's another verse that they use. You know we can move mountains so I I know you had to deal with that one. Probably a million times saw. So how does the faith faith movement used adverse? Yeah well it. Yeah they use that as as basically a blank check. You know whatever you speak to Will will come into physical reality. You can create your your own reality by the words that you speak this is doctrine of confession but in that same context from Jesus talks about moving the mouse and he says whatever you ask Whatever you ask in prayer believing you'll receive. The context of that is prayer. We're when we ask for things prayerfully when we go to God in prayer and ask for things that are in his will they will be given to us when we pray for things that are within God's will they are granted to us. This is not a blank Jag. It's not saying you can speak to whatever mountain is in your life and and It is obligated to obey your words. That's not at all. The whole context of that is prayer going to God in prayer. When we pray for things that are within his will God will grant him if we pray for things that are not within his will. Guess what. It's not gonNA give them so so. The Great Commission isn't for all Christians got into the world and move every huge object. You can find on a just a bit. Just keeping that in mind. According to his will I mean that that really is the key and yes? I've actually seen faith teachers. Say things like to say it has to be done. According to God's will that's wrong right yeah and I know I hear this all the time Eddie you and they say you should never pray if it be. I will well. Jesus did if it be. Your will let this Cup pass from me. That's a good example. Dafalla James did go to James Chapter. Four James. Now have in front of me right now at paraphrasing here James said come now you say we will go to this city and do business in Make a profit. He says you don't even know what your life has tomorrow. Rather you should say if the Lord Wills we will go to this or that city and do business make a profit. Yeah so I mean James. Right there says No. Don't don't presume don't presume upon God's say if the Lord Wills we will do such and such. Wow so Jesse. Know it's it's. It's very easy for Christians who are reading the Bible to find all these errors. It's pretty simple actually yet when you live in that when you raised like you when you raised in and you have this this nice person come to you and they generally want. WanNa see you healed and and you're in the middle of all that it's very easy to just think this way so why I don't want to do is to give people listening this the idea that. Oh you know if I know these verses I can just shut these people down and show them that the wrong. Yeah we're definitely supposed to refute error but the more important issue is these are people these are. These are God's created people who are lost. Maybe they're caught up in some false teaching and when I talked to someone my goal isn't just a to shut them down. Make them look stupid. Show them that the wrong. I want this person to come out of this teaching and to to find the truth the truth of God's work so knowing that you talk to people in these situations all the time what is it just kind of in general that you point them to or or how do you. How do you help a person to just be begin seeing the error of the teaching and just pointing towards the Truth of the Gospel? Yeah any one of the things I like to do with people I start with something very simple and very concrete For example physical healing. If I'm talking to someone who's in this movement or influenced one degree or another by it. I'll say do you believe that? It's always God's will be physically healed in if they're in this movement one hundred percent of the time they'll say yes because that's the theology. Yeah I say okay. So you believe it's always God's Willoughby he'll and then I'll go and I'll show very simple clear. Cut Examples of faithful servants of God. Who were sick in the Bible in the Bible? Yeah that's Great. Ex- chapter four verse. Eleven God said Moses who has made man's mouth who makes him dumb or death or seeing or blind as it not I the Lord Elisha Second Kings Chapter Thirteen Elisha died of an illness. David was afflicted David was sick. Timothy take a little wine for your stomach and you frequence the Apostle Paul himself and I don't even go to the Thornton Flash. Second Corinthians Twelve I go to glacier chapter four the thorn in the flesh that could be taken and I personally don't even think the thorn in the flesh was a physical illness. I don't think that that anyway. Okay but go flip. Over to Glacier. Chapter four verse. Thirteen Paul says. But you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I came and preach the Gospel to you. The first time very clear. Yeah in fact just a few weeks ago a couple of months ago I was at Andrew Woman. He's another prosperity preachers at his Kerris Bible College now talking to a young man. There named Tom and I I had this conversation with this. Is I ask people to to look at these tags because I just want to get a feel for how willing they are to been there nita scripture and I asked Tom Saint Question. Tom D- believe it's always God's will be heal yes of course so I had him flip over to exodus chapter four verse eleven. I said please read that. He just stared at it and I'm going to paraphrase here I went to. I went to Galatian chapter four. He didn't like that went to glacier for verse thirteen. I said Tom read that. He just stared at it now. He's holding his own Bible. He was sitting there reading his own Bible. And I I said Tom what does that say and he just sat. There stared at it silently and so I read it. I said Tom Right here. Paul says that he had a bodily. Yomas and Tom Finally looked up at me. He said to me he said that's what you say. Why all know Tom? That's that's not what I say. That's what the Bible says. That's what you say Eddie. I literally could not get him to admit that what he was reading in. The Bible was actually in the Bible and it was his own Bible. I mean he literally could not admit that what he was reading was actually there and so all of that to say if someone is not going to bend their need to what they see in plain black and white right in front of him right out of God's word there's no other card to play that's that's that is that is it that is that's it you know there. There's nothing else you can do. Talk about. The weather talked about. Who won the ball game? But if they're not going to be in their native scripture. There's no other card to players nowhere else to go from there however if you get a response more like wow well you know. I've never really thought about that before. I I'm not sure you know if you sense a little tenderness if he wants a little willingness on the part of that person to to have their theology corrected from scripture. That's good that's what you want to see and you get that response. I do as well and I get. I get both of those responses. Yeah but I I do get that absolutely so one of the main things you do. You show them places in the Bible where it's very clear that a servant of God someone their faith in the true and living God. They were sick you know. It's not a guaranteed thing. You're going to be healed. What would be another thing you do to to kind of try to get people out there? Yeah and like I say that's just that's just a little kind of diagnostic thing again to kind of see where they are so if they are willing to do that then we're going to go into some deeper things and we're going to talk about. I'm GonNa Give This Person The Gospel. I wanted to see if they understand what the Gospel really is. What repentance really is Christians looking at people in these different movements we miss that step? We just assume this person is Christian but there are a little bit confused on this issue you know and so we miss just a very basic step one question. Is this person even a Christian? It's a lot of cases. I found that they're not the reason they are acting like an unsafe. Person is because they're an unsafe person. That's right so I think that's that's great wisdom just to want to do the diagnostic. See basically see how willing they are to look at scripture. Then you take him to the most important thing in scripture which is a jobs bill and and I gave Tom The Gospel as I left him. he never said another word to me. After that I but I gave him the Gospel he was planning on enrolling at Care S- Bible College This was in October. Actually when I was talking to him so he told me he's GonNa be enrolling this semester and I pleaded with him. I said Tom. Please don't please don't and he just stared out the window and I left so I don't know why So did you go to this college in your outside trying to talk to people or what? What were you doing? I was preaching at a church in the area and Since we were so close to cares we went in. I just wanted to see the facility so I just go in on my scooter. You know and I'm two around in there and Boy You just can't imagine how massive this this facility is unbelievable. And so I. I wanted to talk to some people and I talked to. Several of the students asked invited them to come to my seminar. The detergent town and None of them did. The weather was really bad a lot of big lizard but none Kenny. Couldn't they just bring one of their professors and just make the weather go away because some of them teach that too? Yeah they do. Yeah they do. They teach that you can control the weather but They they have. They have very little luck at doing. So you know I. I watched your win clouds without water. I watched it a while ago. I let them borrow. I never saw it again. So if you're the Christian new borrowed that you need to give it back but anyway I watched that that video and even though I'd seen little things on throughout the years heard about Benny Hinn doing some crazy antics. When I watched your your video series I was shocked at the level of craziness and and just deception and claims that these teachers make about God. I mean they're they're part in there where where where the couple. They basically claimed that when they're flying in their jet They control the weather so they'll have a good flight. Who who was that? Yeah that's Kenneth Copeland Gloria Copeland technically one who said it but She and her husband both claim to be able to control the weather and But it's not just the Copeland's I've heard Jesse duplantis say he can do it. Pat Robertson believe it or not a couple years ago he tried to rebuke hurricane. That was coming in to the East Coast and so we actually talked about it before it came in. Yeah before I came in so what happened when when it didn't happen. Yeah I know. The hurricane came on in slapped predicting and They when stuff like that happens they just ignore it. They just pretend like it never happened. They just move on they. Just move on. Because that's that's one of the things I've always been fascinated with. They'll make these great claims of you know it's kind of like the people who predict the end of the world on this day it's GonNa end and then the next day they're like okay. Open your bibles to chapter whatever and it's like life just goes on like as if nothing happened. How is it and you coming from a background of this? At least you know when you were younger what what does a person in this movement. Think of when. They're promised something from their prophet or their teacher or the person who basically says if you do this then this will happen when it doesn't happen one they think and and what. I've seen a few people I've talked to. They basically think oh man that means. I'm not good enough. That means I don't have enough faith. Is that basically what happens? When people don't get their their amazing dreams fulfilled by the false teacher. What happens that's right. Yeah it's their fault Because if you begin with the premise that it is always God's will be healed a person prays for that healing for days weeks months some people for years some people for decades but the healing never comes then. The question is well whose fault is by definition. It can't be God's fallen Bhagat's I gotta be your so guess who's left cheerful. Somebody asked you this when you were when you were young Is that what she is? That how you took it like when this guy said if you go to the Miracle Healing Service and then you leave the next day you know. You're you're still the same. How did how did that affect you at that time? Yeah I did it. It It it threw me for a loop in fact even tried to. I was so expecting it to happen. And then it didn't happen. I even tried to convince myself. Oh a little something happened I I think I think I can. I think I can move my right hand a little bit better now. I was just grasping at straws thinking. Like certainly something happened But of course it didn't you know When when Jesus healed someone in the New Testament it was a full complete total irreversible irrefutable. The whole town was amazed. Yes right and Non Of this stupid psychosomatic stuff that we see from these faith. Ealing charlatans the video that I've seen going around a lot is the guy who who's in in his what he calls evangelism. He's going up to people and saying you know. Do you have one leg shorter than the other light. Yeah and then he makes the thing grow using. I think it's like an old old school. Yeah trick it's an old trick. Yeah huckster have been doing that for for decades. Fifty seventy five years. They've been doing that. Maybe longer. Tons of people follow these. They fall for it. It's a total it's sleight of hand. It's just. He's slowly manipulating the angle of one of the feed. As compared to other one like he'll he'll pull the he'll out a little bit to make it look like it's growing or or even swinging the legs very slowly to to the side and I. There's there's kind of expose videos on YouTube. How he does this. But but it's it's total and so based on the fact that the person want so much to be healed just like you and your experience with well I think my thumbs moving a little bitter. That kind of thing they they just fall into a tight. That's right it's it's so sad when my wife and I when we were expecting one of our sons we have four boys and so I think it was on the fourth one We were expecting boy and one of my one of my wife's friends was asking her Do you want a boy or a girl and wife was like well? It'd be nice to have a girl I have no idea what that'd be like and this woman basically said well. Here's what you do you get you go out and buy a little red dress. You hang it inside of of the room that the kids are going to be the kids room and you just tell God that you want a girl and you will get a girl and we were just dumbfounded. I thought it was a joke. But then now she really thought that this lady in that movement and she was basically saying you can get what you want if you tell God what to do like to me. That's the most offensive part. Yeah we're telling God what to do. He's right that's right it's just. It's it's blasphemous it's crazy. Yeah and here in just in the last few weeks as of this recording you know the the whole Bethel thing with that little girl all of Who died girl? The girl is all over the news where yeah girl at a church. She is and the people in this church. Bethel basically was one of the leaders who said. Let's pray for her that God would raise her from the dead. Yeah so I'm sure you were following. That story what happened there. Yeah this little girl Two years old or so tragically died the girl. Little Girl's mother Callie. I I think I'm saying this right highly. Gall was there last night but Kelly is one of the lead singers on in Bethel music that comes Bethel Church Bethel music so wildly popular these. Yeah and Beth Laura in Redding California okay. So she's one of the leading singers and Bethel music and so since he was kind of in a place of leadership in the church. You know this became a big deal. Her their little toddler little girl died so they started having a series of meetings where they were literally Eddy. They were they. Were not just asking God to raise little olive from the dead. They were actually commanding. All live to come up out of the graving. See this on Youtube video of it. They have this chant. Olive come out of the grave. Come out of the grave in Jesus Name Olive Come. Out of the grave. They're literally it's they weren't humbly asking that I mean he resigned. Twenty-seven pointing man wants to dine in your judgment. If somebody dies I I've never asked God to raise anybody from the death. Yeah you just believe God's word you just believe is already trust in his providence and sovereignty when someone dies their their dad and they go to wherever. They're you know prepared to go but I mean that would that would be weird enough but that they they took it a step beyond they weren't asking God. They were commanding just like Jesus commanded Lazarus come forth. They were doing that to olive expecting it to happened and of course it did. That's tragic you just like first of all that is that is weird. You know for it and so much the stuff that comes out of Bethal. It resembles something more attuned to some weird new age ritual. That happens out in the desert somewhere to some weird stuff yeah And yet this is something that happened this was all over the the American news like PTO unbelievers all over. The world are writing at this. And I'm sure some of our thinking is going to raise this kid or not like. Is this really going to happen? Is it stopped in their mind. Is this stuff really true? And yet here's this I'm biblical group doing a totally UN biblical thing. And of course they didn't get the result. They they wanted because it was the whole thing was just off a million different. Oh Yeah and you just think about the people who were in that church who are wailing and commanding this girl to to rise from the dead and making their demands on God like when it didn't happen what are they thinking so many of them think well something wrong happened. We'RE GONNA go ahead and keep on believing this this stuff but I'm sure a lot of them are like am I in the right place and you know and what what a what a horrible horrible thing and yet this is. The kind of person does the kind of situation you're dealing with all all the time and so so many people here in this conference me included. Just really appreciate the work that you're doing. It's an important work. It's a messy work because when you start getting into people's lives and seeing all these relationships you get a lot of opposition. I'm sure you've had a lot of people who don't exactly love you. Don't exactly has list. We really just appreciate what you're doing again. If you're listening this I would encourage you. Please go to the easiest website to remember for Justin Peters and that's Justin Peters Dot Com. Check out or ORG. I'm glad you're here to direct my error. Justin Peters Dot Org man just an ice. WanNa thank you so much for coming on this podcast and I just wish you. All the best in your. There's a squeaky chair here. Let's it's been dry. I if if we had an a faith that squeak would just begun right if we were heretics at his back. Anyway I just WanNa thank you so much for coming on the show and again if you haven't heard Justin's material yet you gotta get a hold of it and if you have if you're expecting a child don't put a red dress in your closet. 'cause it ain't going to do anything so again. Justin thanks so much for coming Eddie. I appreciate you present you brother. Thank you for your work and I love you guys at living waters and keep it. 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