20 Episode results for "Kennedy Library"

Summer of 69: The Apollo Missions Pt. 2

Parcast Presents: Summer of '69

43:55 min | 2 years ago

Summer of 69: The Apollo Missions Pt. 2

"On November twenty seconds nineteen sixty three a single gunshot changed the course of American history when Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated President John F. Kennedy this horrific day is notorious not just just for it's tragic events but also for the numerous conspiracy theories that have swirled around it the Grassy Knoll the magic bullet Zapruder Zapruder film. These are just some of the terms associated with the idea that there was more to Kennedy's death than the government has led on but one item that many people aren't familiar with is a document referred to as the burned memo like many other J._F._k.. Assassination theories the the burned memo hints that the C._I._A.. Had A hand in Kennedy's death but it wasn't because he was weak on communism or had botched the Bay of Pigs invasion it was because he was going to reveal the truth about what the American government knew about U._F._O.'s. Are we alone. Have we been alone. Will we be alone. Stories of alien visitation have been ingrained in human history alien life may not be confirmed but our obsession with it can't be ignored. Welcome to extraterrestrial apar- cast original. I'm Tim and I'm bill every Tuesday. We visit the Marvelous Arvidsson strange stories about our encounters with beings from another world. We're aware that some of these tales may seem completely unbelievable others. I may seem all too real but these stories shed light on human nature. Human beliefs and human psychology and each story has garnered hundreds if if not millions of true believers and for that reason we think they're worth exploring welcome to our second and final episode on the extraterrestrial theories surrounding the Apollo missions last week. We examined suspected U._F._O.. Encounters that occurred during the Apollo Ten and eleven moon missions nations. We discussed strange events such as the outer space music the Apollo ten astronauts Thomas Stafford Gene Cernan and John Young heard over for the far side of the moon the also examined the unidentified object the Apollo eleven astronauts Neil Armstrong Buzz Aldrin and Michael Collins saw as they flew towards the moon and how it spawned demonstrably false stories about lunar bases and powerful monoliths this week we'll be going back to the origins of the Apollo missions and examining whether John F Kennedy's desire to put a man on the moon may have been fueled by the pursuit of alien technology and whether his ideas of cooperation and openness with other countries may have led to his tragic death. Both this episode is part of par cast summer of Sixty Nine Event July twenty second through August ninth. All your favorite podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate great the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark summer in American history the summer of nineteen sixty nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing. We're diving deep into the summer. America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals. We'll be digging into the fallout of M._l._K.'s assassination assassination a wide reaching l._S._d.. Colts and rumors of a Kennedy family cover up you can find these specials and more all on our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do it. We love let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoyed today's episode the best way to help is to leave a five star review you wherever you're listening get really does help from the outset of America's foray into into outer space. The government was concerned with the possibility of encountering extraterrestrial life when NASA was founded on July twenty ninth nineteen eighteen fifty nine one of its core objectives was to study the longterm implications that peaceful space exploration could have for humanity to to that end in the late summer of nineteen fifty nine NASA commissioned a research group called the Brookings Institute to write a report identifying a wide range of studies in the social sciences that could be made of the potential benefits and problems arising from the peaceful use of space after about about a year and a half of research the report which became commonly known as the Brookings Report was delivered to the White House in December nineteen sixty one of the sections in the one hundred sixty page document covered the quote implications of a discovery of extraterrestrial life according to the report it is conceivable that there is semi intelligent life in some part of our solar system or highly intelligent in life which is not technologically oriented and many cosmologists and astronomers think. It's very likely that there is intelligent life in many other other solar systems although the brookings researchers thought it unlikely that contact with an intelligent extraterrestrial civilization would quote occur within in the next twenty years unless it's technology is far more advanced than ours qualifying it to visit Earth artifacts left at some point in time by these life forms arms might possibly be discovered through our space activities on the Moon Mars or Venus furthermore the report added that quote if if there is any contact to be made during the next twenty years it would most likely be by radio which would indicate that these beings had at least our own technological the logical level the reports writers hoped that the knowledge that life existed in other parts of the universe might lead to a greater unity of men on earth but they were also concerned with how the discovery of extraterrestrial life would be released to the public the Brookings Researchers asked how might right such information be presented to or withheld from the public and for what ends what might be the role of the discovering scientists and the other decision makers regarding release of the fact of discovery however due to the change in presidential administrations between between Dwight D Eisenhower and John F Kennedy the Brookings Report wasn't released to Congress until April eighteenth nineteen sixty one about a week after after the report's release Kennedy made his thoughts on the possibility of withholding information very clear in a speech known as the president and the press we decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which cited to justify although Kennedy's speech was addressing the recent Bay of Pigs fiasco during which a us-backed rebellion in Cuba had failed in his desire to have as much open communication as possible with the American public could just as easily apply to the recently released brookings reports but in the very same speech Kennedy tackled the apparent hypocrisy of needing occasional government secrecy when it came to national security nevertheless last every democracy recognizes the necessary restraints of national security and the question remains whether those restraints ain't need to be more strictly observed if we ought to oppose this kind of attack as well as outright invasion here the potential invasion Kennedy was describing was by the Soviet Union but some ufologists have interpreted his words as priming the American people for the dangers injures of the U._S.. As impending foray into space less than a month after his president and the press speech Kennedy announced his desire desire to have a man walk on the Moon in an address to Congress on May Twenty Fifth Nineteen Sixty one to most observers Kennedy's announcement was a direct challenge due to the Soviet Union which had become the first country to successfully send a man into space just over a month earlier on April twelfth nineteen sixty one Kennedy Kennedy seemingly backed up this sentiment in meetings with his staff on November twenty first nineteen sixty two. He told NASA Director James Webb that this is whether we like it or not a race everything we do in space ought to be tied into getting to the moon ahead of the Russians but Kennedy's Kennedy's private actions indicated that perhaps there was a greater reason to go to the moon than simply winning the space race on on June third and fourth of nineteen sixty one Kennedy met with the Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev in Vienna Austria on the surface. The purpose of this summit was for Kennedy was offering an olive branch to Russia his reputation might never recover and his administration could have been effectively over before it had even begun but perhaps Kennedy was more focused on the greater good of humanity than on his own political career. Maybe his offered a Khrushchev was fueled by the Brookings reports conclusion that if an alien civilization was discovered it could be a unifying force for mankind Kennedy. May Hey have agreed with this conclusion but apparently Khrushchev did not on the second day of meetings Khrushchev told Kennedy that the Soviet Soviet Union would not agree to conduct a joint mission to the moon with the United States. His reasoning was decidedly earthbound Khruschev insisted insisted that before the two countries could go to space together. They had to come to an agreement regarding nuclear disarmament. He had a point it would be difficult because for the U._S._A.. And U._S. are to unite forces in space if they were still at odds on earth. Maybe Kennedy believed joint lunar mission mission would be a good first step towards eventual peace between the two superpowers or maybe he thought that the threat of whatever was on the moon was so great that it transcended earthly squabbles. The general sentiment from the Vienna summit was that Kennedy badly bungled his meetings with Khrushchev shortly after the the summit ended Kennedy told a New York Times reporter that the summit was quote the worst thing in my life. He savaged me J._F._k.. Himself admitted that he had been under prepared for the meetings. According to University of Southern California Journalism Professor Richard Reeves Kennedy didn't listen to his own advisers. He had no idea how tough it would be. Perhaps Kennedy's proposal to combine moon missions was a moment of weakness against a powerful opponent or maybe he believed that cooperation in space could lead to cooperation on earth regardless this of his intent Kennedy had to abandon his idea for a combined moon mission to deal with the incredibly complex political maneuvers of the Cuban Missile Crisis News on October Fourteenth Nineteen Sixty two and American youtube spy plane photographed Soviet S. S. four medium range nuclear ballistic missiles being constructed in Cuba with Cuba located only ninety miles away from the Florida coast. These these missiles represented a huge threat to the United States. They could reach over two thirds of the U._S._A.. Within three minutes if they were unleashed the missiles could have killed up to eighty million American citizens Kennedy knew that for the moment he had to put aside his goal all of working with the Soviet Union in the interests of the American people no matter how great the threat of Alien Technology on the moon might be to American citizens. The threat of Soviet missiles in Cuba was even greater after a week of deliberations Kennedy announced on October Twenty Second Nineteen nineteen sixty two that he had ordered the Navy to blockade Cuba to stop the Soviets from delivering any additional weaponry two days later on October. The twenty fourth Russian ships approached the blockade ultimately they decided not to attempt to breach the American line nuclear nuclear war had been avoided for the moment coming up John F. Kennedy continues his push for a joint joint American Soviet lunar mission hi there if you enjoyed this episode on the Apollo Missions Search extraterrestrial on spotify and give us a a follow to find more episodes now back to the story in the autumn of nineteen sixty two both united added states and Russia were gearing up for a diplomatic and military standoff over the placement of missiles in Cuba the situation worsened as as the year neared its end on October twenty seventh an American reconnaissance plane was shot down over Cuba after this act of aggression Kennedy ordered the military to prepare the necessary forces to invade Cuba Khrushchev blinked first he offered to dismantle the missiles shows in Cuba and in exchange the U._S.. Privately agreed to remove their missiles in Turkey. Although the negotiations were short they represented some of the highest stakes diplomacy the United States had ever faced it was a decisive success for Kennedy and got him the respect from Khrushchev if he believed he deserved the Cuban missile crisis may have been the most significant conflict in the Cold War but it also represented a turning point in American Soviet relations on August thirtieth nineteen sixty three a direct line of communication was established between the U._S. and U._S._S._R.. Are symbolized by the iconic red phone. Although the Cold War was far from over Kennedy was prepared to once again propose a joint white moon mission between the two countries despite the clear hostility the Soviet Union had shown during the Cuban Missile Crisis Kennedy was still prepared to who work towards a joint lunar mission. Whatever was out there? was that important to him. The only question was whether Khruschev felt the same way. After the Cuban missile crisis in late October nineteen sixty two relations between the United States and the Soviet Union began to improve by August nineteen sixty three Kennedy felt comfortable enough to once again privately proposed a joint mission to the moon between the two superpowers even even though the U._S._A. and U._S._S._R.. Had almost gone to war the year before Kennedy was committed to working together in space on on August twenty six thousand nine hundred sixty three four days before a so called hotline between the U._S._A.. And U._S._S._R. would be installed Kennedy met with the Russian Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin in the Oval Office. The two men discussed a wide range of topics including China nuclear testing Germany allows Cuba trade civil aviation agreements and space once again Kennedy suggested a joint lunar mission between between the two countries according to a nineteen ninety seven interview with Khrushchev's son Sergei. The Soviet premier was seriously considering accepting Kennedy's Andy's offer before moving forward Kennedy wanted to be sure he'd have NASA support in the event that Khruschev accepted his proposal on September Eighteenth Nineteen nineteen sixty three Kennedy met with NASA chief James Webb and they briefly discussed Kennedy's desire to conduct a joint mission of course Kennedy. She didn't need Webb's permission to combine forces with the U._S._S._R.. But it was important to have web as an ally rather than an adversary when Kennedy broached approach the idea of cooperating with Soviet Union web indicated it would be alright with him. Two days later on September twentieth nineteen in sixty three Kennedy finally made his intentions regarding the lunar mission known to the public in a speech to the U._N.. General Assembly finally in a field where the United United States and the Soviet Union have a special capacity in the field of space. There is room for new cooperation her further joint efforts in the regulation an exploration of space. I include among these possibilities a joint expedition addition to the Moon Kennedy had made good on the resolution to be more open with the American public that he had made in his president and the press speech over two two years earlier. Perhaps with the Cuban missile crisis firmly in the rear view Mirror Kennedy finally felt comfortable publicly discussing his true desires for or cooperation with the Soviet Union but there was still a limit to Kennedy's transparency. If the reason for the joint mission had to do with alien the and technology on the moon he remained silent about it for the time being. If there really was alien technology on the Moon it could cause widespread panic accuse Kennedy divulged everything he knew or maybe he didn't know exactly what was on the moon and preferred to stay silence until he knew the extent into what the Apollo astronauts might encounter there according to Sergei Khrushchev his father was fully prepared to go forward with Kennedy's plan and despite opposition Kennedy was facing at home he was fully committed to moving forward with it as well on November twelfth nineteen sixty three three Kennedy issued a memo to NASA Director James Webb titled Cooperation With The U._S._S._R.. On outer space matters in the memo. Oh Kennedy instructed Web to quote assume personally the initiative and central responsibility for the development of a program of substantive of cooperation with the Soviet Union in the field of outerspace Kennedy added By the light of a communist moon by the time Johnson was in office the U._S._A.. Had pulled ahead of the U._S._S._R.. In space technology he I felt extremely confident that America would get to the Moon I and as NASA inst- closer to developing the technology needed to get there they had to to decide where the astronauts would land on November sixth nineteen sixty six NASA launched an unmanned spacecraft called lunar orbiter to to to photograph potential landing sites on the moon the photos the orbiter took were available to the public and on November twenty third nineteen sixty sixty six the Washington Post ran an article describing photos that contained quote six mysterious statuesque shadows according according to the article quote ranging from one about twenty feet long to another as long as seventy five feet the six shadows were hailed by scientists scientists as one of the most unusual features of the moon ever photographed scientists said they have no idea what is casting the shadows the largest the shadow is just the sort that would be cast by something resembling the Washington Monument on February first nineteen sixty seven a member of Boeing's things biotechnology unit named William Blair told the L. A. Times that if the structures had been discovered on earth it would be assumed that they were artificial official in nature and may have archaeological significance when Blair analyze the structures further he discovered that they formed what appeared to be a geometric pattern pattern made of right angle and isosceles triangles in his mind. This pattern indicated that there was some purpose behind the structures lay out and and that they weren't natural formations these structures which became known as the Blair cusp bids were located at the western edge of the seve tranquility about three hundred kilometers from where the Apollo eleven astronauts would land in the summer of nineteen sixty nine although oh the Blair bids certainly had a strange appearance most scientists agreed that they were nothing more than interesting formations on the lunar surface and their proximity comedy to the Apollo eleven landing site was merely a coincidence additionally three hundred kilometers isn't exactly walking distance the farthest this Neil Armstrong and buzz Aldrin went from the lunar module was sixty meters furthermore the astronauts didn't collect any photographs of the Blair air cuss bids from orbit however ufologists such as Ivan t Sanderson continued to believe that the Blair cuss bids were part official structures in one thousand nine hundred seventy Sanderson wrote an article in Argosy magazine describing lunar structures he believed were the work of intelligent beings. This theory seemed to be supported by stories like the mysterious space music. The Apollo ten astronauts heard and the alleged U._F._O.. Encounters encounters Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong had when they explored the lunar surface however concrete proof that the government ornament was hiding something was elusive in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine though thirty years after Neil Armstrong became the first man to walk on the moon the proof that the government was covering up what it knew about U._F._O.'s finally arrived and even more incredibly it was tied into into the assassination of John F Kennedy coming up we investigate the possibility that Kennedy was assassinated because of what he knew about U._F._O.'s and now the conclusion of our story in late November nineteen sixty six ufologists discovered photos of what could possibly be artificial structures on the moon three years later the Apollo eleven astronauts landed less than three hundred kilometers from where these structures known as the Blair cuss bids were located although NASA insisted the Blair cusp bids were natural natural formations and their proximity to the Apollo eleven landing site was a mere coincidence many within the U._F._O.. Community continued to suspect the government was concealing the presence of alien technology on the Moon but on June twenty third nineteen ninety nine a ufologist named Timothy Cooper received a package that would change how the U._F._O.. Community viewed the lunar missions for ever the package sent by an anonymous honest source claiming to be retired C._I._A.. Counterintelligence agent contained the pages of charred nine page memo in a letter accompanying the memo the anonymous agents said the papers had belonged to James Angleton the director of C._I._A.. Counterintelligence from nineteen fifty four are two thousand nine hundred seventy five after Angleton died in nineteen eighty seven the anonymous agent claimed responsibility for burning his top secret papers verse however there was one document in particular that the agent couldn't burn a memo that revealed Kennedy's assassination was connected acted to U._F._O.'s according to the letter the agent literally grabbed the papers from the fire before they could become completely consumed. Cooper couldn't believe his is the anonymous agents letter that accompanied the memo didn't explicitly state why they had chosen cooper to receive this information but cooper suspected it was because of his long standing interests in both the Kennedy assassination and U._F._O.'s for a little over ten years ears cooper had been making freedom of Information Act requests for documents on the Kennedy assassination passed in nineteen sixty seven this act requires wires federal agencies to disclose any information requested by an American citizen unless it could be harmful to a governmental or private interest with much of the information regarding the Kennedy assassination still highly classified Cooper's requests had gone unanswered. Cooper was also involved in the a U._F._O.. Community and his request for information on that subject had also gone ignored Lately the results confirmed that the ink dated to sometime around the time Kuprin would had estimated the memo was written nineteen sixty three however would has never actually made the results public and they have never been confirmed while it would be thrilling if the burned memo was authentic all evidence points to it being a hoax the biggest indication that the memo is probably fake is the extensive references to M._J.. Twelve the supposed secret government organization in charge of keeping U._F._O.'s and other extraterrestrial information hidden from the public as we mentioned in last week's episode and have covered in other podcasts M._J.. Twelve is almost certainly not real although the F._B._i.. Officially confirmed M._J.. Twelve was fake in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. Many ufologists have deep distrust of the government and still believe that the shadowy do we organization exists however it's not just the mentions of M._j.. Twelve that indicate the burned memo is a hoax. A major tip off is that the memo M._O.. Refers to Kennedy as Lancer while this was his secret service codename the C._I._A.. Designation for Kennedy was G.. P. Ideal additionally the fact that such a memo would even exist is highly unlikely although there have been instances of top secret information being leaked because because it was put on paper such as the Pentagon papers putting a plot to assassinate the president in writing is on a completely different level also if by some chance the burned memo was authentic. There's almost no way Jim angleton would have been foolish enough to keep it in his files else and not destroy it immediately after reading it but for those who continue to believe that the burned memo was authentic. Their case was bolstered in two thousand eleven eleven when paranormal researcher William Lester revealed he had obtained another memo that confirmed Kennedy's interest in U._F._O.'s unlike the burned memo which was supposedly sent by an anonymous counterintelligence agent Lester claimed he had obtained his document from the C._I._A.. Yea via the freedom of Information Act. The memo titled Classification Review of All U._F._O.. Intelligence files affecting national security was was written from Kennedy to C._I._A.. Director John McCone on November Twelfth Nineteen sixty three the same day Kennedy ordered James Webb to begin researching ways to to conduct a joint lunar mission with the U._S._S._R.. In the memo Kennedy wrote I have instructed James Webb to develop a program with the Soviet Soviet Union in joint space and lunar exploration. It would be very helpful if you would have the high threat cases reviewed with the purpose of identification shen of bona fide as opposed to classified CIA in U._S._A._F.. Sources it is important that we make a clear distinction between the knowns and end unknowns in the event. The Soviets tried to mistake our extended cooperation as a cover for intelligence gathering of their defense and space programs uh-huh although Kennedy didn't explicitly refer to U._F._O.'s by name Lester believed he was trying to figure out the distinction between Authentic U._F._O.. Cases and accidental sightings of classified American military aircraft Kennedy was also planning on sharing that information about the U._F._O.'s with the Soviet Union. If this was the case then this new memo could be the so called missing link that supported the theory that the C._I._A.. Eh was behind Kennedy's assassination. However there are reasons to believe that this memo is also a fake according to a research technician Shen at the John F Kennedy Presidential Library? There wasn't a copy of the memo in the archives and there's little chance that the archives are incomplete the technician who wished to remain anonymous told journalists Natalie Wallover in two thousand eleven that J._F._k.. Kept carbon copies of all his letters the even those that were classified furthermore the technician pointed out that the memo was quote sanitized in very odd places the director's here's name the top heading of the document which usually distinguishes which agency is generating it and the tiny top secret print at the top of the letter uh top secret items are usually stamped in large dark ink on the letter. Finally the signature on the memo is redacted. Although oh Kennedy's printed name was not if the point was to conceal his identity then all mentions of Kennedy's name would have probably been redacted additionally nationally if the memo was obtained through a freedom of Information Act requests. There's little chance that it could have come from anywhere other than the Kennedy Library. Any document procured through the freedom of Information Act has to be through an official source which in this case would have been the Kennedy Library. The most is logical explanation regarding. This memo is that it was a fake unfortunately in the end. There's no concrete proof that that John F Kennedy's death had anything to do with alien technology or U._F._O.'s however that isn't to say there wasn't anything strange about his behavior when it came to arranging joint lunar mission with the Soviet Union the fact that he would I propose the possibility to Khrushchev shortly after the brookings the report was released was definitely somewhat odd and Kennedy's continued efforts to arrange the joint mission show that it was definitely an important goal role for him but aside from bizarre formations on the lunar surface and the false stories about U._F._O.. Encounters Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin had during their mission. The question is if there are any legitimate incidents that astronauts had that can point to any extraterrestrial activity on the moon June one event that particularly stands out is the moon music that the Apollo ten astronauts heard in May nineteen sixty nine as they crossed crossed the far side of the moon as we discussed in last week's episode the strange event baffled the Apollo ten crew but after returning turning into communications range with mission control they decided not to say anything although the audiotapes and transcripts from the mission were officially declassified fight in one thousand nine hundred seventy six they were somewhat difficult to obtain because they could only be accessed at Nastase official library in Washington D._C.. But but in two thousand sixteen NASA digitize the tapes and released them online making it incredibly easy for anyone to listen to what the Apollo ten astronauts heard with this accessibility came the explanation of what caused the mysterious music apparently the sound was caused caused by radio interference between the command module and the lunar module the reason that the astronauts had anticipated this happening was that Apollo ten ten was the first time both vehicles were orbiting the moon at the same time with that question answered the only unexplained events relating relating to the Apollo missions was the object that the Apollo eleven astronaut saw on their approach to the moon although Buzz Aldrin was certain that the object was just a panel that had separated from the lunar module during separation from one of their booster rockets. There was no way to officially verify what the object I was therefore even though the object probably wasn't a spacecraft it remains an unidentified flying object in the truest sense of the term with all the information available to us. We can also rate the believability of the extraterrestrial elements of the Apollo missions on a scale of one to ten ultimately. There just isn't any evidence that there were any actual U._F._O.. Encounters during the Apollo missions additionally there's no no real indication that John F Kennedy's assassination had anything to do with aliens although his desire to conduct a joint lunar mission with the Soviet the Union could have been motivated by the Brookings reports conclusion that the discovery of alien life could unify humanity. There simply isn't any any actual evidence to support that theory in the end. The believability factor for this case is a one the Apollo missions were one of the most incredible feats in all of human history when all is said and done adding aliens to the Equation Vision almost cheapens the achievement of putting a man on the moon but with new discoveries being made in space every day such as the recent photograph graph of a black hole. Maybe someday humanity will make

Professor Richard Reeves Kenne Soviet Union NASA alien technology Kennedy Kennedy Library John F Kennedy government director Sergei Khrushchev United States president James Webb Soviet Soviet Union Cuba John F Kennedy Presidential Li Neil Armstrong America
Robert Cialdini on the Psychology of Influence (Podcast)

Masters in Business

1:07:02 hr | 3 months ago

Robert Cialdini on the Psychology of Influence (Podcast)

"Bloomberg's masters in business is brought to you by interactive brokers interactive brokers charges usd margin loan rates from point seven five percent to one point five nine percent rates subject to change. Learn more at ibkr.com/savemore. Compare this is masters in business with very rules on bloomberg radio. This week on the podcast. I know i say this all the time. I have an extra special guest. But man. I have special guest. Professor robert chaldean author of influence. The psychology of persuasion is back. Professor cheltenham's books have sold more than seven million. Copies influence is on autonomy. People's top book list including none other than charlie munger of berkshire hathaway. I wish we had another three hours. I had so many questions. I was taking notes furiously here. Me writing and typing in the background. We wanted to circle back to so many things he brought up. There's so much to talk about really. It needs about eight hours. We we were lucky. We had him for well over an hour talking about you know most people when they expand the successful book they they do a light touch this new book. It's double the size of the original. It absolutely is practically brand new book. Look for the blue and gold cover if you wanna make sure you're getting the twenty twenty one addition. I found the conversation to be nothing short of of fascinating and spectacular. And i think you will also You'll hear my thought process of. Do i just stay with this topic. Do i get to the next question. Let me circle back and of course you run out of time. There's there's i literally had forty more questions to ask him. Plus all the my notes and and unfortunately you know. These aren't nine hours long. But you will find this to be absolutely fascinating. He's an intriguing person and just so knowledgeable about why people do what they do. And how we influence each other including some of the ethical considerations of that let me stop babbling with no further ado my conversation with professor robert shell dini author of influence the psychology of persuasion. This is masters in business with barry ritholtz on bloomberg radio extra special guest today. Is dr robert towel dini. He is the regents professor emeritus of psychology marketing at arizona state university. He is the author of books that have sold more than seven million copies including influence the psychology of persuasion and pre suasion a revolutionary way to influence and persuade his new. An expanded version of influence is just out robert. Shell dini welcome back to masters in business. Thank you very good to be with you again. Same i've been looking forward to this for a while and and i have to start with you. Know my my nineteen eighty something version of influences the skinny little dog eared. Paperback the new book is. It's probably double in size. It's bigger it's expanded. it's more in depth. How much of this book is is new and different compared to you the original or or any of the prior revisions. We added two hundred and twenty new pages. Wow that's a lot so it's almost like A new book. It's we didn't just append two hundred twenty pages we Integrated the new material into the existing material because the existing material steel Fortunately stands and we wanted to emphasize new directions new information new examples and specifically new ways to harness those principles. One of the things we got as feedback. I'm previous editions. Is you know Professor and we we understand those principles of influence we. We see their utility and business. But can you give us the exact words that we can use to ignite them to activate them in a particular situation. So there's a lot more of Specific things to say specific scripts to use specific sequences of information to provide that. Allow you to to be the benefit of those powerful sources of change quite quite interesting. I have to go back to the original book and ask you a question that you know just grabbed me when i first read this and in in the beginning of your research for influence which really dates back to you as a grad student. You spent a few years working undercover at places like used car dealerships or telemarketing firms. Tell us a little bit about the genesis of influence you know. I started working as a academic research. Psychologists social psychologist studying my passion which is persuasion and social influence. You know laboratory using college students as my subjects for the most part and learning some important things i think by being able to structure An environment in which we were able to test exactly the Question that we were interested in In a rigorous way. But i quickly began to see that i was limiting myself in recognizing how we jim realize the results that we got from college students in a laboratory to the influence wars that are being fought all around us every day in which people are trying to move us in a particular direction. And we're trying to move others in a particular direction. What's the evidence of what works in naturally occurring interactions between people. That 'cause one person to say yes to another and it seemed to me that there were professions whose business it is to get others to say yes to them right. They must know what works otherwise they would go out of business so i began to take training undercover in as many of the influence professions as i could get access to buy Signing up to be a trainee. So i would learn what they had learned that got people to say. Yes in a variety of these professions. So i learned how to sell automobiles from a lot. I learned how to sell insurance from a desk. I learned how to sell portrait photography over the phone. But i didn't stop sales. I learned how advertisers and and copy writers get people to say yes from An ad they right. How how Charity solicitors get people to give funds and donations to particular causes how recruiters get people. Not just arm service recruiters or business corporate recruiter get people to move in their direction. What do cult recruiters do right and Down the line. I looked for. What were the commonalities. That worked in each of these various professions. That everybody said do this do this. Thing because it enriches off if you do so tell us some of the commonalities what phrases and thoughts and influence programs of for lack of a better word because i think sales training is the wrong description. What was the common thread in. All of these different entities. I i was shocked at how small the footprint was. I only counted six universal principles of influence. That were recommended. Each of these Influence professions The first is reciprocity. People say yes to those they all so one thing you can do is give i give something of value to people and they will stand ready to give back to you when you ask for something not necessarily directly in return but down the road if you give them information that's a value for them. You give them something A or service for free and then They it's their turn. They're much more likely to say to you in return i. There's a a lovely little study it done in a candy shop. I if the manager gives a little piece of chocolate to people as they come in as a sample their forty two percent more likely to buy candy. Wow now the key is you might say. Well maybe they just like the chocolate so they bought some more. If you look into the data the great majority didn't buy anymore chocolate. They bought something else be wasn't what they had received. It was that they had received. So i always advice if you go into a situation where you want to be more influential. Let's say you're in the new situation. Maybe a new organization or Setting and there's a group of people you wanna be influential there. The first question to ask is not to look around that room and say Who can most help me here. The first question is can i most help here So show up with donuts and coffee the first day and and it will pay dividends goes people will stand on the balls of their feet ready to give back to you. I'm remember a couple of years ago. We started getting solicitations through the mail for some charity where they included a dollar bill in the mail or and you say that looks so expensive. I remember they used to do. It might have been the the hard sociation used to send return receipt stickers for you to put on a piece of mail you sending out so you had your name and address but this was next level and then you stop and think about it well between the stamp and the envelope and the printing and putting it together a the dollar may be the cheapest part of it but still that has to have an impact on people who opened up an unsolicited letter. And there's a dollar in it right. Here's the thing you can't send the dollar back right right so you keep it. And as soon as you've kept it the rule of reciprocity that's been installed in you from childhood that says you must not take without giving them return kicks in and the american Veterans are Association gives that little pack of gum address labels ryan there Right it increases donations by fifty percent. That doesn't surprise me at all. Because not only does. My wife used them but i imagine every time she pulls out that role of shiny gold return addresses and pulls it off she remembers. Oh this came to me from this group and it has to be. It has to be a nagging motivation. That i should really reciprocate the generosity. You know. I get these pens at various conferences and so on that have some sponsors name on them and so on and and you know The they're so trivial. I i hardly pay attention to them. They usually go in a drawer with fifty other pins right but i went to one conference. I was a speaker so they knew who i was in the put mining. The geez berry. What was the impact on you. So that's one of the ethic celery tres of the proof. not only. Should you give. I which is kind of different from the usual business exchange where we say people you buy our product you sign our contract and we will give back to you exactly what you hope for that. Means they have to go first roof. Reciprocity says you go first anyway. And if you give something. Personalized to the individual the rule for reciprocity immediately becomes more muscular pin. I carry it around with me because it's got my name on it. And every time i look at it i've seen my name on one side of the pen and the sponsor's name on the other side of the pin just like your wife remembers. I remember that they gave me this pan personal gift. Not just a a universal gift to give to everybody. That's one of the keys to accelerating the power of this portfolio analyst powered by interactive brokers help sophisticated investors understand the health of their complete financial portfolio portfolio. Analyst is free and easy to use personal finance software that creates a consolidated view of banking brokerage and credit card accounts compare your consolidated portfolio against more than two hundred benchmarks or create customized benchmarks for analyzing performance calculate time in money weighted rates of return and use portfolio analysts were forecasting sign up for free at portfolio analysts dot com. You know after our first conversation. I think that was two years ago. I got a lot of email from from different people but the one that really stood out to me was from a fan of yours. Bob and he said you were burying the lead in your insight about reciprocity. And he believes that reciprocity is even more powerful than you suggest so. I have to ask you two questions about this. I have you ever heard this concept. Has anyone ever told you. Hey you're not emphasizing. Reciprocity enough and what are your thoughts on on this idea of his. Yes i think he's right It is so fundamental that it appears in every human culture. There's not a single human society on earth that feels to train its members in reciprocity from childhood. You must not take without giving in return. You must not take without giving in return in every language very nasty names for people who don't abide by that rule. We call them moochers right. Who take without giving reject or or or We we can call them at various things like that. Spongers or takers or ingrates or teenagers. nobody wants to be labeled like that so people always give back to us and in keeping with what your listeners said I have in the new book. Got language to help A help us employees. The situation in places where we used to drop the ball. How many times have you heard somebody say berry. Thank you so much for this. That was really great. You really helped me out. And what do you put in the moment after genuine thank you. We're the rule for. Reciprocity dominates that situation. I'll tell you what i used to say. Don't worry about it. Uses big deal. Right would have done it for anybody right. My pleasure your pleasure. You went beyond. I know that i went above. And beyond i went to some effort to do it and then i just slap it out the window with the back of my hand. So here's what i say. Now one of two things. If that individual is somebody who i have a long term relationship with i say of course i was glad to do it. It's what long term partners do for one another. I put it on the map. I don't deny it. I don't dismiss it i don't diminish it. I say it's what long-term partners do for one another. And now when i need something from that individual you know to turn around more quickly so i could whatever the issue is right for you. Yeah they'll now. Let's say you don't know that the first time and you've done something above and beyond the call for this person they say thank you. There was great very. Here's what i think. I would say in that moment. Look i was glad to do it. I know that if the situation had ever been if the situation were ever reversed right. You'd do the same for me once again. We don't diminish it. We just say you play by the rules. i know you. I know you'd play by the rules. And let's be careful not to say if the situation had been reversed you would have done the same for me. That's in the past. It ever happened in the past in the past. What i say now is if the situation were to be reversed. I know you would do the same for me. So you're planting the seed prospectively as opposed to referencing already took place in the past. I'm planting the seed. And i've cultivated the earth before i plant it's almost like it's pre suasion. Exactly right so we're talking about. Reciprocity on a micro level and some of the examples that you reference in the book social etiquette gift-giving handshakes the golden rule Things like collaboration or even collusion. But what about reciprocity. On a macro level and some examples include the marshall plan or open immigration policies. How does macro reciprocity work. It works Remark it goes back to the magna carta in fact where you know. The the the british statement of how we govern now one of the one of the features of it from the twelfth century said if we're in a war with another country is our People are re representatives who are selling our commercial representatives are people who are selling in their country or you know if they are protected than we have to protect their foreign citizens who are in our country. It explains something that i'm old enough to remember the the Cuban missile crisis back in the early sixties when the world was on pins and needles because the us had found That russia are no soviet union at that time had sent guided missiles and put them in cuba and pointed them to the united states nuclear missiles. Well john f. Kennedy was president at the time confronted co cruise jeff head of the soviet union at the time and demanded that they be removed. Otherwise there would be war and said we've set up a blockade so any soviet ships that are currently coursing to cuba to continue to add to the nuclear stockpile. there they would be stopped and khrushchev. Just said if you do that. That's an act of war. It's not any war. It was a nuclear war that was an estimated to eliminate one third of the population on earth. How did they get out of it. Well the the story was that kennedy was so steadfast so steely eyed so resilient that he refused to back down and eventually khrushchev blinked and removed his missiles from cuba and the us one kennedy built his reputation as an anti soviet leader that increased his popularity. Would there have been some new documents released recently from the kennedy library. That showed that it was not that it. All it was reciprocated. Oh really kennedy promised to remove missiles from turkey that were pointed to the soviet union if crew jeff would remove missiles from cuba and required that cruise. Jeff not kill anyone about the rest reciprocal exchange because that would weaken his political. Kennedy's political position at home as somebody who compromised with the soviets and so what happened was the rule for reciprocity was suppressed as the true reason. Instead stubbornness was elevated the thing that actually would have created a war was elevated to prominence. As the reason we got out of it was the opposite it was reciprocity that exists in all human cultures. That's what got us out of the cuban missile So there's a whole nother conversation to be had about why politicians have to hide what really happened and present such a strong face. I'll hold off on that. But i have to ask you a question of bad biology because you said reciprocity and a lot of the rules of influence show up in every single culture on earth. So is this a learned behavior or is this really written in our genetics. As social primates. This is something that only humans have in terms of future. reciprocity there will be some exchanges. Cooperative interactions between infra-humans in it within their species. Right they'll they can cooperate but the idea of getting something and having an obligation to give into the future only we have that and it's mostly in my view socialized into us rather than evolved into us now. I'm not gonna take a clear stand on that. But for the most part in my view the reason it exists and we have those nasty names in every human culture for people who violate the rule. Is that if we have a society where people give and take and cooperate and exchange the society thrives it flourishes and so that's why it's socialized into us. I think primarily quite fascinating. I have to start with a quote from the new version of the book that that i found quite fascinating. Quote a central assertion of this book. Is that our choice of what to say or do immediately before making an appeal significantly affects. It's persuasive success. But there's a related choice that occurs even before that one it's weather on ethical grounds to try to attain success in such a way. That's the beginning of chapter. Thirteen discuss why you felt. It was important to dedicate a big chunk of the book to this because the principles we talk about in the book are dynamite and we've got possession of dynamite so we have to use it ethically we can use these principles for ill or we can use it for them for good and the clear recommendation is if we use them in an ethical responsibility way. We build relationships. We build long turned sustainable. Exchange Histories with people and that continues into the future if we use it to to exploit or deceive or course people into change We may get that change in the immediate situation. But we've we've essentially Created an adversary Somebody who resents Being pushed or tricked into sent so In fact richard sailor nobel laureate in in One of the endorsements for the book. Here's what he says about the book. There's dynamite here please. What use what you learn with care. And that's a very wise thing for him to say not surprisingly nobel prize winner. It's the ethics of the process. That are so important to producing long term relationships that continue to pay off for us. You know. I mentioned earlier that you had gone undercover at car dealerships and and charities and insurance sales place th. There's a line that has always stayed with me from the book which is quote the number. One rule for salespeople is to show customers. You genuinely like them. Why is this so important for a salesperson to demonstrate faction to a customer or client because people like those who like them and now we're into the second principle of influence laking that Allows us to be more influential if we can arrange for people to feel a sense of reports since of liking for us before we begin the process. We're halfway there already to assent before we even deliver the request or the recommendation or the proposal and So one way to do that is to turn the rule that i always heard in every one of these training programs on its ear. They we were always told. If you want to get somebody to say yes to you for your request or proposal get them to like you right and then there are various ways to get them to like you but one thing i recognized. Is that the way you the best way to do. It is to come to like them and show them that you like them and down the barriers to change because they know that if you like them you're gonna steer them correctly. That's what we do with the people we like. That's what we do with our friends in the in. The fact is they will be right. If you truly come to lake somebody you will try to give that person the best possible arrangement because of that sense of rapport and affection. You have for that person. So that's what we can do because we can control how much we like other people more than we can control whether they like us or how much they like us. So let's work on ourselves. Find things that are genuinely praiseworthy about that person. I it may take a little longer for certain people in other people but you can do it. Focus on that and let that person know. Give them a compliment a genuine compliment or find things that are genuinely similar between you and that person not only do we like people who who like us. We like people who are like us members of the same tribe. That's right you referred recently too. I forgot who you were talking about. But they were a fan of the same team that you're a fan of and suddenly everything about that person is hey they were smarter. Their books were but everything about them took a step up and and that's just because they're members of the same you know they like the same things their members of the same trimbe. They have similar affiliations. It's that powerful social proof. It's that powerful. It's that powerful. And i mean and i i'll give you the exact situation. I grew up in wisconsin. The nfl team. That's the home team. Wisconsin has always been the green bay. Packers i read an article a few months ago. That said that Justin timberlake and little wayne and then these two musical celebrities right. they are both avid packer fans. Very i immediately thought better of their music. And i wanted them to succeed into the future because we were members of the same tribe and you are not what i think of as a little wayne fan from the outset but right now so since we're talking about ethical considerations in questions it raises a really important issue. How do we protect ourselves from people who may not have your level or dick taylor's level of ethical recognition and how do we protect ourselves from unscrupulous users of of these psychological techniques right so At the end of every chapter in the book. I have a section called defense how to say no to somebody who's used these principles right. So let's let's take the liking principle For example and let's say you're shopping for car or you've got somebody who wants to partner with you on some a business deal and you find yourself leaking that person more than you would have expected for the amount of time that you've spent together but let's go to the car salesman and and if you recognize that looking is there in the situation added to an extent that's inordinate more than you would expect step back from the situation and recognize why. Why am i liking this Salesperson oh yeah. He gave me donuts and coffee. Oh yeah he says that his wife grew up in the same place that i grew up. Oh yeah he complimented me on my Interior choices for the car and then and then separate that sales person from the car. Because you'll be driving the car off the lot. Not him quite interesting. You know before we get into some specifics. My favorite story in the original book is how you met. Charlie munger tell us about. How your relationship with charlie monger came about one day. I went to my mailbox to find an envelope. A big Envelope and i opened it to find a note from charlie monger appended to a single share of berkshire hathaway stock. The note. said you don't know me but we have used the material in your book influence to make so much money here at berkshire hathaway. I'm sending you a share of a a stock out of reciprocation. Your first principle. You deserve something in return at the time. That share was worth seventy five thousand dollars. This was like the most. Is that what we're talking about. Yeah yes and today. That's worth about four hundred and thirty thousand dollars exactly and let me tell you. The reason i held onto that share all these years with great benefit was because of what warren buffet. And charlie munger do in there in in warren's letter to his shareholders every year for berkshire hathaway. We're warren establishes his credibility on the front page on the first or second page of text of every of of those Of those letters. He does something to give me a sense of his credibility his knowledge and trustworthiness. He mentioned something that went wrong that year. Something that didn't go as expected. And then he says of course we've learned from that. We will never do that again. And then he moves onto the strengths of the year. All the things that went right berry every year. I say to myself. Wow i'm dealing with a straight shooter here. not only is this guy knowledgeable. He knows you know what's what went right and what went wrong. He's trying to fool himself with this. He's trustworthy he's willing to tell us what went wrong before he tells us what went right. Right he establishes his truthfulness which makes me believe in what went right to truly process at deeply and believe it fully because he. I was willing to tell me what went wrong. I now believe the knicks thing he said. I recall reading something about that in influence. Someone who is honest and humble. Exactly so i have never thought about selling that unit of the st- share of stock because every year i see how honest and knowledgeable. The man is on the front page of the text that he sent. The there was a couple of years ago. Berkshire did so well. That year. there wasn't anything they did wrong so you know what. What what Warren did he told us about a mistake. He made in nineteen ninety-three with dexter shoes error. Just so he's making clear to us. Look i'm not trying to claim that i know everything. Look i make mistakes and once again. I'm astounded by the The honest the transparency of the guy and then willing to follow him from there on so It's it's brilliant. It's brilliant tactic that it's not a tactic in the sense that he's doing something phony. He is an honest guy. He's showing us his honesty by doing something i recommend to. I would recommend to all your listeners. To make an all cases of course have strengths and weaknesses. Mention a weakness relatively early in your case. Because that establishes your credibility for what you say next. And that's the moment for your strongest argument immediately after you've mentioned a weakness if you're saying you know i i think we ought to move in this in this direction for Your investments. Let's say you're a an adviser But there let's talk about there some tax consequences of this and this may take a little bit longer. But i think it will be well worth for these reasons. People will listen to those reasons differently. In the moment. After you've managed mentioned a weakness and you will allow those strengths. Just wipe out the weakness klein interesting. The other story in the book that really cracked me up. I guess we should have talked about it when we were discussing. The ethical considerations is the story of the to taylor's. Sit in harry where one of them pretends to be hard of hearing t tell us a little bit about that story. 'cause it's just unbelievable that these guys figured this out and used it so effectively. The do brass story of the who. We're ran a men's clothing shop back in the nineteen thirties. The depression and When a person would come in man would come in to buy a suit He would be In front of that three pane mirror. You know you stand and be getting Trying on a suit and one of the brothers Would call to a across the room to the taylor his other brother. Harry how much four this all. This beautiful all will Suit right and harry would call back. thirty nine dollars and the other brother would say He would cup his ear to hear and then he'd say he says twenty nine dollars is he didn't hear it correctly and the guy would jump at it right getting a bargain suits and hustle out of the store a thinking he had pulled something over on the doobie brothers in fact to do big brothers. Pull something over on him which was to say. You're getting this deal. They're getting this at a at a big discount. In fact the twenty nine dollars was the true price of the suit. So here's the that story raises and that i'm fascinated by it so in the traditional world of behavioral finance folks like failure or congressmen would say the by or they're the suit buyer was anchored on thirty nine dollars and suddenly twenty nine looks relatively inexpensive so so kinda raises. A couple of questions is this. Just anchoring is this is. There's some social authority about getting thirty nine a more valuable suit. What's going on with this. And then i wanna ask you some questions about behavioral economics. Why does the buyer think they're getting a bargain and by the suit and run out right. You're correct about the anchoring process. If i give you a high number now initially if i ask you the distance to the sun very and then i want to sell you a bottle of mineral water. The price of that bottle of water seem smaller to you by the process of Anchoring and so you're more likely to buy it. I it's crazy but that's the truth. That's the way we work. It has to do something called perceptual contrast anyway right in in that contrast that the twenty nine dollars suit now seemed less expensive than it would have if he hadn't heard thirty nine dollars i so that's one component. The other is. He thinks he's getting a great deal on this The fact that it it seems less expensive. It seems like it's a thirty nine dollars suit that he's getting for twenty nine dollars so both of those things are are working. So let's talk about behavioral finance and the book you know. I kept having in the back of my head parallels to behavioral economics. Your first version of this was nineteen eighty four. Did you have any idea that you were operating in parallel with people like conman into vergerski or richard. Thaler a robert. Schiller or thomas guillevic. How aware were you of that fields. Which really wasn't recognized for at least a decade or two later. I had no idea. But i think i understand why it turned out that way. So for example the influence the book has been called the bible of of e commerce of Digital marketing well. When it was written there was no ecommerce. There was no digital marking. There was no internet and people. At how could you see a hid so far in the same way that you would say. How could you see so far ahead into behavioral finance behavioral economics. It was not by looking forward at some sort of four cle. It was by looking inward. What are the things that have always moved us as a species toward change. What are the things that have always counseled us correctly as to. It's time to to act in this way versus some other way it were. It was the sixth universal principles of influence that had always driven us into change. And so. that's what i did. I didn't look forward at thirty years. I looked inward to the factors that have always moved us as a species. So let's talk about some of those six. We talked about reciprocity. We talked about social proof. What other key drivers do you think are worth mentioning. We've also talked about authority degree the extent to which you you you want to say yes to those individuals who have showed you that they are credible sources of information. They are both knowledgeable and trustworthy. We talked about that Another is of course scarcity that. Let's talk about that. Because that is such a key issue in economics and finance in psychology. Why is scarcity such a giant driver. It turns out that the key to scarcity that is The idea that people want more of those things they can have less of right is that they're afraid of losing their afraid of losing that desirable opportunity. They're afraid of missing out on this This chance to move in a productive direction and so on and as daniel conham has shown us Loss aversion the idea of losing something is more powerful more motivating than the idea of gaining that very same thing right and scarcity so loss is the ultimate form of scarcity. It means you can't get it anymore. Right so the thing that makes scarcity so powerful across the widest range of situations is the idea that we will lose something and that loss drives us crazy. To an extent that gain doesn't benefit doesn't make us as as satisfied as a loss makes us dissatisfied with the very same thing right so it's almost a two one ratio. We feel losses twice as intensely as we feel the pleasure of gains and my pet theory. On that i wanted to ask you about a feels that gains are temporary. You get a windfall. You could go out and you know. Spend it freely in. It's gone but losses feel like their permanent and never to be re recaptured again. Why do you think. The loss factor. The scarcity factor is much more intense. I have my own opinion. But i i i really like yours as well so my guess. Is that if you ever see something with a big effect. It's never caused by one thing. It's always really multiple caused. So here's what i have thought And it's an evolutionary explanation if you are if you are Operating at a a level of survival right and you have a chance to gain something. Okay you'll get an increment upward if you get an increment downward you may be gone game over right. You're gone so you have to pay much more attention to the idea of losing something because you eliminate you right. Existential ads are more significant than a few. I always think about this question in terms of las vegas. Not that. I've been to vegas and it seems like years but right outside of the casinos is very often jewelry shops. And you watch people come out with winnings and by you know crazy expensive jewelry and stupid expensive watches but the people lose the rent money. They're really in dire straits. And that's not for people on the edge survival if you're if you're just above that subsistence level man. It's an existential threat to suffer a loss. Existential is precisely right. You're gone so you have to be alert to it. You have to be suspicious about any situation. You have to be willing to move against encounter the possibility of loss to a much greater extent than The probability of game makes a lotta sense any other of the mean principles that we didn't get to that you think is is worth mentioning before. I have a one more question. I have to ask you. But i want to stay with the principles. Yes and there's the new one the one that i call unity. I've actually added a seventh for this edition We and we've kind of talked about it already. it's that the willingness of people if if as a communicator you can arrange for people to see you as one of them right as of the matt just like them in tastes or preferences or styles saw that. That's what that increases liking. But if you can get them to see you as one of the category of individuals that you consider a we group and us group everything inside that category Becomes easier to influence your more cooperative. You believe those people more you trust those people more you say yes to those people more really. What's key is you have to bring to. Consciousness that unity that exists and i'll give you a short example of something that worked for me. A while ago. I was writing. A report was due the next day. And as i was Skimming it before putting it in an envelope and sending it off i I saw that there was a section of it that was not really compelling. I didn't really have the evidence To make that case in that one section that i that i i wanted to be persuasive about but i knew that. A colleague of mine. Let's call him tim Did some research the previous year. He had the data that i needed. But i didn't have them. He had the data so i sent him an email. said tim. is explained. I have this thing. It has to go in the mail tomorrow to the granting agency and I don't have the data. could you go into your archives. Get that data out for me and send it over to me. So i could get it into my report and and get it off by the end of the day now. I said i'm going to call you To tell you about the specifics of what. I need well. I called them and to was known to be an irascible kind of sour guy he just was a negative guy so he picked up the phone and he said bob. I know why you're calling and the answer is no i can't. I can't be responsible for your poor time. Management skills i. I'm busy to very before. I knew the research about unity and dean raising consciousness the the category similarity between people that defines that right i would i i would have said come on tim i need this thing is due tomorrow. He already said noted that. Here's what i said. Instead tim. we've been members of the same psychology department now for twelve years. I really need this. I had the data that after. I imagine not a lot of people. Say no to you and get away with it. Well my kids well. Reciprocity doesn't always work with kids for for reasons expected. So let me ask you this question. The last time we had you on the show. I asked you a question. What made donald trump such an effective communicator. Given the fact that we now have a new president and there's all sorts of of Going on around that. I wanna ask you this question about president biden. A large percentage of republicans don't believe he was legitimately elected. They believe president trump that the election was stolen given everything you know about tribes and influence. What do you think president biden can do to influence this group of republicans that he was legitimately elected. I'm gonna suggest something. It's a little used very underused strategy from persuasion science. The convert communicator. This is somebody who used to believe what you believe what you currently believe. He's one of you or she's of you and then has a new piece of information that you don't have. That changed his or her mind. And tells you y you can't dismiss that person. This is of your tribe. this is of you. this is one of view now. You've got a communicator. Not speaking from outside of your group but speaking to you from inside of your week group and providing piece of information you don't have so let's say it's about getting vaccinated and you're just not convinced that you should and it's not necessary. And then you have somebody who says i used to believe that and then my mother got. She wouldn't wear mask. She wouldn't socially distanced she wouldn't get vaccinated just like me and we buried her last week or if it was it's about measles vaccinations and you say and then my daughter got measles and she's deaf all right now. That's a piece of information you don't have but it's coming from one of you. That's what i would recommend. I know i only have you for a limited amount of time. let's do. This has really been absolutely intriguing. But let's jump to our favorite questions that we ask all of our guests starting with. Tell us what you've been streaming this past year under lockdown. What are your favorite net or amazon. Prime shows podcasts. Keeping you danes. I've been re streaming breaking bad. I love this show and these days. The crown i've been i'm still in the middle of the crown right so those two i've been Entertaining myself with when. I haven't been writing this Expansion to the book quite quite interesting. Tell us about your mentors who helped influence your career either as a professor or or an author yes so bear three individuals in in graduate school and in my postdoctoral fellowships One was my major adviser chat in school and other Famous psychologist at my graduate institution. Unc chapel hill. John tibo and then My post doctoral fellow adviser stanley schachter at columbia university. But i'll give you a mentor. Who taught me something that i think saved my career Before i went into College i was a very good high school baseball player. And i had an offer to play niner league baseball from a scout for The white sox. And i was gonna be in. I don't know level d baseball. You know way down below and to start and He came to my last game and he had a contract and he had he wanted me to sign. It and i was the center fielder. I wanted to be mickey mantle. Willie mays and His pen wooden work and the way to the car to get his other pan. He asked me. Hey kid you any good at school. I said yes. He said good enough to get into college. Yeah good enough to finish college. Yeah do you like school. Yeah he's a go to school kid. You're not good enough to make the majors. And he was right. I couldn't slighter. I couldn't hit a good slider. I was going to see a lot. More good sliders as i went up to and he and i went to school instead that man i mean if i had wound up in you know class a ball i moved up to middle or maybe class aa baseball and then just couldn't get any further after four years. Let's say trying by four years. Maybe i'm married. Maybe i have a child. I don't get to go to college now. You know what i get to do. I get to be the assistant manager of the pizza. Hot right in the last city. I wound up in and berry. We're not having this conversation probably not. That's amazing did you ever get a hold of who that guy was. Do you know who he is. He passed away. His name was bunny. Brief i remember him. Did you have an opportunity to thank him. Play for detroit Back in the forties and thirties. But it was a scout in milwaukee where i grew up in. Yeah did. Did you ever have an opportunity to to thank him for his. Did he passed away before. I had the chance to recognize how important it was for him to tell me. Look don't just follow your passion which everybody else says right right. Follow your passion that you're good at. That's great good at right right. That's an unbelievable story. So let's go to books. Tell some of your all time favorite books. And what are you reading right now. So in terms of fiction remains of the day by Issue goudreau And underground railroad by colin whitehead for nonfiction. I'm going to go to the things that are influence related aristotle's rhetoric my god. It's the first time anybody tried to systematize the process of of persuasion. He did it. And then my Nobel laureate authors You know daniel katamon for thinking. Smith fast and smoke. Slow nudge for failure and sunshine. and what i'm reading now is Sapiens by yuval. Noah harari brilliant. Brilliant book really really interesting. Let's talk about you mentioned. Don't always just follow your passion. What sort of advice would you give to a recent college graduate who is interested in a career in in psychology or academia or in writing or any of combination of those three. If you're really interested in a career in psychology. There's a little secret that you can employ. It's called independent study credit. You get credit for working on a project with one of the professors In in in say in psychology department or in the communications department or in the marketing department. Whichever one you want to go to and you get experience working as a professional on a project that they have that tells you whether you really want to go further in this but it also gives you somebody who can write a letter of recommendation for you to the next step to the master's program or mba program or Phd program to be in a psychology related career. Quite quite interesting and our final question. What do you know about the world of psychology today that you wish you knew back in one thousand nine hundred eighty four when you were first writing influence. Here's what i wish. I knew about the influence process back. Then that would have Made for a better Environment for me Going forward it is when you are going into a situation with people. you don't know right. you don't know much about them at all. Think the best of them think that best about them. It allows you to be generous with them in here. There are three downstream consequences of that generosity. I by the principle of laking. They will make you more for being a generous person. Second by the principle of reciprocation they will give you that generosity back third by the principle of commitment and consistency when they recognize that. They are being generous with you. The are giving you things. They're working together with you. They will want to be consistent into the future with what they have already done. And now you have a set of people you like. Who like you who are exchanging favors gifts and services and information into the future. If i had known that thirty years ago i would have done it immediately. It took me a long time to recognize that quite fascinating bob. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. We've been speaking with robert sheltie author of influence. If you enjoy this conversation will be sure and check out any of our previous of four hundred such interviews You can find those at tune spotify wherever you feed your podcast fixed. We love you. Comments feedback and suggestions. Write to us at m. i. b. podcast at bloomberg dot net sign up for my daily reads at ritholtz dot com. Check out my weekly column. It's on bloomberg dot com slash opinion. Follow me on twitter at ritholtz. I would be remiss if i did not think the cracks staff that helps put these conversations together each week. Morale is my audio engineer. Michael boyle is my producer. Atiku val braun. Is our project manager. Michael bat nick is my head of research. I'm barry ritholtz. You've been stirs business on bloomberg radio. Climate change is at the center of everything. Bloomberg green is at the center of solving it bags by powerful data and a global news room. Bloomberg green is focused on solutions and the greatest opportunity of our generation bloomberg green solutions for a changing climate in partnership with general motors. J. l. l. and standard chartered visit bloomberg dot com slash green.

charlie munger berkshire hathaway cuba Professor robert chaldean Professor cheltenham charlie monger professor robert shell dini bloomberg radio dr robert towel dini Shell dini bloomberg american Veterans are Associat khrushchev kennedy kennedy library barry ritholtz
Episode 226: Ernest Hemingway

Newt's World

33:22 min | 6 months ago

Episode 226: Ernest Hemingway

"Do you think our nation's economy is going to be insulated from biden's plan massive tax increases. Think again there's only one way to protect your savings. Do what over ten thousand other smart investors have and convert a portion of your retirement accounts into gold and silver with burke old when inflation hits and it will gold and silver a your safe haven call birch gold they will help you convert an ira or eligible 401k and to an ira backed by gold and silver and listen to this now through april thirtieth on qualifying purchases when you purchase precious metals with birch. Gold they'll send you a free home safe tech new two four seven four seven four seven for your free information kit on precious metals. Ira's or to speak with birch gold representative today with ten thousand customers. They have an a-plus rating with the better business bureau countless five-star reviews and they can help you to text. Newt two four seven four seven four seven for your free safe with qualifying purchase. Hi everyone. I am so excited to launch my very first podcast the truth with lisa boothe with iheartradio gingrich. Three sixty the truth with lisa. Boothe is a podcast. Projects crusade rejects fake news and never bow down to the political correctness. Poisoning this country from with it. You're ready to step outside your comfort zone and join me on this wild. Ride than buckle up and tune in on march twenty fourth. Right very first episode. The truth with lisa boothe every single wednesday on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. On this episode of newt's world last night on pbs was the premiere of the new extraordinary documentary. About hemingway a film by ken burns and lynn. Of the documentary covers hemingway's entire life and six hours over three nights. Part one is entitled a writer and covers eighteen. Ninety nine to nineteen twenty nine hemingway's childhood early youth and life as a young man of world war. One red cross ambulance service two marriages and two children. I'm looking forward to watching party tonight at eight. Pm the avatar from nineteen twenty nine to nineteen forty four and then part three on wednesday night at eight pm blank page from nineteen forty four to nineteen sixty one. It's hard to imagine with the filmmakers. Go through when taking on a subject. Like hemingway his largeness of life is bravado and spirit. How do you capture the nature of the man. The myth the writer revealed in six hours. Well i'm really pleased to welcome to guess today. Who will describe the process. They went through and researching writing and filming this extraordinary biography. Lynn novick who directed the film and sarah bot stein who produced the film along with ken burns Welcome and i should mention to our listeners. That if they happened in this part one heavenly last night they can watch it on the pbs app or by going to pbs dot org slash. Hemingway and they can watch it online. Before we get to hemingway's writers. I am about that. Tell me about your partnership understand. You've been working the other florentine films since one thousand nine hundred ninety seven. That's amazing run. Yes this is linh. And sarah. And i have together with ken and our writer. Jeff ward an incredible team of producers and editors since came in nineteen ninety-seven seven. I came to florentine thumbs in nineteen eighty nine when ken was finishing civil war series. And we've had just an incredible experience of learning about subjects as far ranging as jazz prohibition the second world war and now hemingway and vietnam war action. Forget that so we throw ourselves into these subjects sort of headlong their long-term research and production effort so we got to know the people we get to know the historians and we enter into worlds that we would never have access to. And it's been incredible privilege to do it together. Sarah so i'm cursed because of your prestige because of the extraordinary achievements. You could cover almost anything. So why of all the things you picked. Why go to hemingway. I have personally been fascinated by kind of obsessed with hemingway. Since i was in high school. And that was in the nineteen seventies. When i first discovered the sun also rises in school and then read a farewell to arms on many of the short stories as a young adult and found like many people his life and his work completely fascinating and in the mid nineties. I went to key west on vacation or went to his home and saw the rumor. He worked and really felt an epiphany of if we're looking for iconic american subjects and important stories to tell. How could we not do. Hemingway and i went back to walpole and talked to. Ken burns in jeopardy. And they said yeah hemingway's great. We've sort of thought about it before. Let's think about it. It's more and we thought about it and thought about it and it took us a while to get there because of other projects we're working on and finally in around mulan working on our vietnam serious and jeff in san decided yes. We're going to do hemingway. it's time to tell the story to mazing tribute to the prestige. You bring to documentaries that the voices you had for hemingway and his four wives me jeff. Daniels meryl streep keri russell. Mary-louise parker patricia clarkson. That's really quite a group. How hard was it to draw them together just to say it is. One of our favourite aspects of our work is to find actors to read well known and lesser known. Important people in our history and this film certainly has a great cast. Jeff daniels inhabits hemingway in such a miraculous way. he not only reads the works of hemingway. But all of hemingway's personal letters. And he's hemingway young and hemingway old. Hemingway sad hemingway angry in every iteration. And he's truly truly brilliant so you know we thought of him for many many reasons and he's also from that part of the country and that wasn't why we chose him but it was a happy coincidence and i think he did bring some understanding of where and how. Hemingway grew up in his reading. And then meryl streep and ken have gotten to be friends over the years and she was an extraordinary. Eleanor roosevelt in the series. That he did a few years ago. And i think whenever we can we jump at the chance to work with her and she actually recorded martha gal horn during covid all alone in los angeles. We weren't able to be there. Because of covid ingested a miraculous job bringing her to life and then linen i had. I mean one of the most fun. Three days working with keri russell and patricia mary. Louise parker each of hemingway's wives were different. Strong independent interesting women and all of those actors brought something to the women and we feel very very lucky to have worked with them. In terms of use. A sense of reality you are actually able to film in hemingway's home in cuba. How did that come about well. We were very lucky in that. There's a foundation. The home is called the think of the hia and the think of foundation which was based in the us is dedicated to preserving that incredible place and so they helped us to make contacts in cuba with the government agency. That runs it because the home it belongs to the people of cuba and so we were given permission to go into the house to scout and then to film for several days. The curator's really want to share the story of this place and hemingway's life there and what you can glean about him from being there and as tourists if you go to cuba you can't go inside the house. You can just look in the windows. We were able to go inside with our lights and our camera crew for several days and nights and really inhabit. That place is remarkable. This if you went out to go get a cup of coffee from where you live right now and you just never came back. Everything that you left in your house would be there. You know your toothbrush and your cell phone your shoes. I mean literally everything he had. Is there from the newspaper. He was reading to his toothbrush. Everything and so when you walk in. It's like he just left. Who's he warned or did he just have an instinct. That time had come. It was over several months. He was warned. Ultimately castro came to power and he sort of thought maybe he might be able to stay there and kind of just be a neutral party and the pressure became too intense anti-american sentiment and also. Our government wanted him out of there. They had bought a home in. Idaho is kind of a safety valve and went there but they didn't know they weren't going to be able to go back to keep us so after the bay of pigs. He never went back again. We must have been a great cautioned him because he truly loved being there and he loved the caribbean now. You also got permission from hemingway family to film the original manuscripts which are at the jfk. Labor way does showing the original manuscript. Enhance the story. It's amazing that hemingway capped every version of so many of his great works and he was so phidias and enormously disciplined and would go over and over both with his written hand and the typewriter and change commas words to semi colons names of characters titles of works and all of those are kept in very pristine beautiful condition at the kennedy library and there are high resolution scans and lower resolution. Scans that academics and people interested in hemingway can access and go see and at one point. We thought. Maybe we don't need to film the original manuscripts we can just use the scans and that's fine but we went there just as we were about to finish filming and we were trying to decide whether we should do it or not. And i remember the sensation of being given the folder and opening his actual pencil of the farewell to arms and calling lynn. and calling. kenan saying you know. It's a little bit like being in a museum and actually seeing the work of art or being in a concert hall and hearing the piece of music or looking at the actual sculpture there is something truly magical to it and we brought our cameras in about a week later and spent a couple of days just reveling in the fact that we could show these documents in their original quality and the pencil feels different and the paper looks different. And it's pretty amazing. Remarkable the being done with a pencil. Yeah those of us who now live in an age. When we'll be very hard put to be able to write they will. Your story reminded me of good friend of mine. Daniel silva who's a novelist who was down in the basement of the vatican museum where he had written a things about mysteries investigating and they liked him at one point. The guy turns to him and sincere. Hold this for a second. And he's holding this unfinished painting and he said what is this he said. Oh it's a da vinci. 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Healthcare and start moving. Your health forward visit go forward dot com today to learn more. That's go forward dot com Things it makes hemingway in a way timeless. I think that he creates this mythology about himself. There's some historic hemingway hidden in there somewhere. But there's also somebody who had seems to me is virtually for his entire life self promoting and trying to have you believe in a hemingway. He would like to believe him. Did you find that kind of tricky to go through and distinguish which hemingway you were dealing with you know in a way. That's part of him to right. So one of the first things you'll hear in the film as one of our interview experts saying. I hate the myth of hemingway. The myth of hemingway obscures the man. And it's absolutely right and as you said. He did that himself because he wanted to keep part of himself private and not lay himself bare all the time and he also was a great self marketer. He understood very well that this persona that he created sold a lot of books and he was very very famous for being a great artist but also for all his public escapades in making the film we wanted to show that was part of him and that he created it and that it kind of imprisoned him after a while and maybe got in the way of seeing his art and also in the way back into his work at some points in that. Very salubrious ways you know. So some of his works that are not perhaps the greatest. Maybe are just infected by this macho persona on the printed page rather than the deeper more vulnerable complicated characters that he does so beautifully at other points in his life. I get pressure moves. Well he grips into commercialism and he writes in order to get paid so he can sustain the myth which then allows him to right so he can get paid and then occasionally even late in life. He suddenly breaks often. Does something like the old man. See and it's a totally different experience and away a totally different haning way. Yeah you have the privilege of interviewing hemingway's only surviving son. Patrick did that give you a different feel for him away very much so it gives you chills when someone says. My dad always used to say his dad happens to be ernest hemingway and yet. Here's patrick in front of us. Very human relatable down to earth person and he was eighty five. When i first met him. He's now in his early nineties. Very much with us and his father is a vivid character to him but also a complicated character and he's not shy about revealing some of the really deep and devastating family conflicts that they experience but he also is very generous in sharing. What a wonderful childhood he and how much he loves his father and how sad he was that they became sort of a strange of the end of hemingway's life so where he is in his life or where he was when we first started talking with him was that he wanted the world to see an honest portrait of ernest. Hemingway and he said often he trusted us to tell a story that would be fair and true and let the chips fall where they may. And that's a very generous thing for him. Knowing all the laws that hemingway had and he knows that as well as anyone to be willing and eager to have that story told so long as and we made this very clear from the beginning. We were interested in hemingway because of his art so centering the film on his work. That's what was important to patrick to essentially because hemingway himself had route. All you to do is write one true sentence right. The trailer sentence i you know and then go from there in that sense. I think hemingway would probably take some comfort in the idea that you were trying to find the true hemingway and not just fall for whatever the mythology this year. Is you have a hemingway esque voyage. The you guys have taken. That's true. And patrick wanted to help us. On that journey. I was really surprised. Is to sign a my own ignorance. I guess what. I had no idea. How challenging hemingway found finishing farewelled harm and the fact that apparently he thought he had written thirty nine. Different endings will apparently all discovered that. If you go and look at the material at the kennedy library there were forty seven different and knicks. that's willing extraordinary period of aggie to sit there and say well. This isn't quite right. Let me go at it again now. I've written a fair amount of my life. But i can't quite imagine the intensity of that kind of commitment when you look at that material would have been a significantly different book. Had he picked one of the other end well in one of the endings. The baby survived so he experimented. And what's interesting is that we had to try it out on the page. Just in his head you write it down and the description of the baby's fine so sorry about catherine you know that sort of took him down a rabbit hole. That didn't go where he wanted to go but he had to try it out. And some of the endings are frankly. Kind of modlin. Some of them are overwritten. Some of them are kind of ridiculous and then he hits on the perfect one. So i'd love the fact that he agonize so much. I wonder whether i'm sure. Report his heart and soul into everything he ever wrote. But this was. I think in some way he knew this was going to be big. That was gonna be at belk was going to really make his reputation. And so he self-imposed pressure perhaps but also kind of an artistic exigency to get this right and not to let it go until he was really satisfied. And that's so beautiful always struck me that it is in a very real sense. The sheer impact. Both as a literary event and a popular book of the sun also rises also became a burden. Because now you gotta figure. What am i going to do to stay in and not necessarily to transcended but what i do to stay in the same league as this book which is one of the transformative american novels of the twentieth century. That must've been in his head. A great deal. The time i can't now slide back into mediocrity and have been a one novel writer that sense when you look at his material. Oh definitely i mean. I think early successes hard for anyone daunting for anyone. Then he had early success obviously with some of the short stories and then with the sun also rises. Which is you say. it's transformative looking at generation. Lost in different. You know the world has blown up. And i think he knew that a lot was riding on a farewell to arms and it's an extraordinary book that will withstand the test of time. No question in my mind. I wanted to give my wife. Callisto the perfect anniversary gift. I was looking for something meaningful personal and something. She would cherish forever. That's when i discovered paint your life dot com. They take any photo you provide of your family a special place or a cherished pet and turn it into a professional and painted portrait. You can even shoes team of world class artists and work with them until every detail is perfect. Get a professional hand. Painted portrait created from any photo at an affordable price in about three weeks. If you wanna give a truly meaningful gift you got to try paint your life dot com paying your life dot com. There's no risk if you don't love the final painting your money is refunded guaranteed and right now as a limited time offer get twenty percents off your painting. That's twenty percent off and free shipping to get this special offer. Text the word newt to sixty four thousand. That's newt to sixty four thousand text. Newt to sixty four thousand paint your life celebrate the moments that matter. Most terms apply available at paint your life dot com slash terms again texts. Newt sixty four thousand. Hey everyone lisa boothe fear. And i am so excited to let you know that. I am launching a brand new podcast. The truth with lisa boothe starting march twenty. Four as a former pollster political adviser now a television commentator. I ever your trust by telling you the truth. I can make this promise to right here right now. I will always give it to you straight and guarantee that we're gonna learn something new and we'll also be entertained with each episode whether it's just me on air leaving no stone unturned to get to the bottom of the hottest issues. Impacting your life. Whether i'm interviewing some of the biggest names out there. I will always think for myself. You should to look. You don't always have to agree with me but if you're tired of being talked down to this is your podcast nigger. You're tired of hearing the same tired talking points and you want some fresh takes. This is awesome cash. You want to know what's really happening. Or a country without the spend without the b es and this is a podcast for you. Listened to the truth with lisa. Boothe every wednesday on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. Sign up and subscribe today Age of colin infant. An all in all these things will be nice to have a new hemingway ca somehow captured for us the spirit of make sense which is what he does with. The sun also rises. We were talking earlier about the book. Everybody has badly. Which i think is a terrific. Leslie terrific buck. Highly recommended what. I'm intrigued worth when you look at. All of that is was at the moment was an entire population. Sorta was waiting for somebody like hemingway to capture for them their own thoughts and it's a combination of the topics but also this new writing style which cuts through what had been the classic american literary genre to that point when you look back on that. Are you surprised. How gigantic and impacted. It's hard to say. Because i can't imagine american literature or literature of world war one without the sun also rises. It is so important and yet it's not even directly about the war. It's about the generation. Like sarah was saying and how people were damaged by this scale of loss and trauma that they had all gone through. And how do you keep on living. How do you keep on finding meaning in life. And it's such an unusual way to approach it for that time. I think it's very idiosyncratic. It's very particular to the circumstances he was in and the people he knew and the things he saw what he was interested in. So it's hard to even imagine. I think it had a huge impact on his life. That's for sure and it also was away that he showed and leslie bloom. Shows the so beautifully in her book he was willing and eager to use any everything his disposal to tell the story. He wanted to tell even at the expense of people who had really helped him and good friends that he portrayed in the book and not terribly positive. Light especially herald loeb. Who was a good friend of his and it helped him in his career and then was portrayed in the novel has robert cohn who sort of an anti hero or the villain of the story and a lot of ways and so. Hemingway didn't care he wanted to tell his story and he would take whatever he could around him to make great literature. And there's a price to pay for that and that's so your depression that he was a dangerous friend very much so very interesting very exciting but also like being next to ally him. He could bite you at any moment. So that and he was driven by hemingway. He wasn't driven very externally in that sense. The other part of that though is that hemingway also seems to me. And i'd be curious because you've been so immersed in this the clean simple short narrative model that he developed where the senses are easy to understand is driving. Momentum sorta paves the way for dashiell hammett and others see an entire american genre of a kind of clean storytelling. That's profoundly different from what went before does that fit as you look at his impact on writing and his impact on would be authors of the future. We did a series of conversations about hemingway with different experts and writers and people who had perspective and one of the people who join us. Those rachel kushner. Who's a novelist in la in her forties or fifties and to read her. You might not necessarily see the echoes of hemingway per se. And she said she thought. Her generation wasn't directly influenced by hemingway. But they were influenced by the generation that came before that was directly influenced by way so in a sense. His fingerprints are his. Dna is passing through many removed. And i think someone writing one hundred years from now will be influenced by hemingway but they may not really realize it. it's unavoidable even with six hours. Which is a remarkable documentary. Builder owen person. You must have left really interesting things on the cutting floor i guess nowadays digits. We don't actually cut anything anymore. This is a leftover from the age of film. But i'm curious. What do you think is the biggest thing you regret. Not having been able to include good question. I mean we always say that the stuff that's on the cutting room floor virtual or not is never bad stuff. It's just i mean. Ken is famous for saying this. It's too many notes. Just one too many threads for our audience to follow you. Know one of the challenges of the film. I would say is that so much of hemingway's greatest work was done in the first decade of his writing career. I would say from his early time in paris through the farewell to arms or even into the early thirties. And so we could have made six hours just on that because there's so much to explore and so in particular. The short stories has first rate burst of short stories and those are often overlooked because the novels we tend to value novels over short stories as markers of literary genius or whatever but there are many short stories that we were not able to delve into deeply in particular. I have my favorite. Which is soldiers home. I think is an extraordinary work about a young man coming home from world war one and trying to reintegrate into society after all kinds of horrific experiences and ending really not being able to do that. Fam- understanding him her. It's a beautiful story. It's very short. We don't open up and tell you about that short story and that i wish we could have done. You may not be allowed to answer this question. But i'm curious now that you have this great achievement heading to your list of great achievement. You have a notion yet of what the next one is. Aria lynn cannon. I are making a film about the. Us response to the holocaust looking at what our country knew when we knew it and what we did about it in relationship to the immigration and refugee crisis that we are still feeling the effects of so that film will come out in twenty twenty three. It's another six hour. Look at that time. ken is working on many projects. Another one that. I am directly working on is a big series where making on the american revolution. So that's a very interesting time to be doing. That and lynn is working on a big series on the history of crime and punishment. You made the book or you mean the process. Now the history. Right crime and punishment in america so the book is fascinating novel but this is really going back to the earliest european presence here up through the american revolution and the penitentiary system and then all the way up to mass incarceration and beyond over twenty years in prison reform. Very important topic. We're grateful you for that and we actually want to say. Sarah together made a film. Two years ago. That came out called college behind bars. Enough you've heard about it. But it was exploration of men and women in prison enrolled in and really remarkable college program called the bard prison initiative so they earn college degrees and they experienced the transformative power of education. And the film opens with a starting moby dick and then it goes on from there to linear algebra and mandarin and advance economics. These are incarcerated men and women are marginalized communities who are some of our most brilliant scholars that you could possibly imagine so we and we very much aware of your very important work on criminal justice reform lemay shown to both of you. As each of these new projects comes to fruition. If you'd be willing to come back and talk about a we'd love to have you come because it's absolutely fascinating you you do world classwork so it's always a great tribute. I feel great being in your presence in knowing how hard you to have worked and cans work to build this entire genre of material would love to so thank you very very much for joining us. Thank you for having us. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much as a great conversation. Nobody concerned about san. Thanks for joining me today. And looking forward to watch hemingway part tonight at eight. Pm eastern on my local tv station for our listeners. Who missed watching. Hemingway part one. Last night you can watch it online for free on the pbs app or by going to pbs. Dot org slash. Hemingway it's an exceptional film on hemingway's life and i highly recommend. Thank you to my guests. Lynn novick and sarah bots. You can get a link to watch their new film. About hemingway on our show page at newt's world dot com neutrals produced by gingrich three sixty and iheartmedia. Our executive producer is debbie. Meyers our producers garnsey. Sloan has rachel peterson. The our work for the show was created by steve finley special. Thanks him again. We sixty if you've been enjoying newt's world. I hope you'll go to apple podcast. And both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about right now. Listeners of mutual can sign up for my three free weekly columns gingrich three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt gingrich. This is new twirled. Hi everyone. I am so excited to launch my very first podcast. The truth with lisa boothe with iheartradio gingrich. Three sixty the truth with lisa. Boothe is a podcast and rejects. Ruth checks fake news and will never bow down to the political correctness. Poisoning this country with. You're ready to step outside of your comfort zone and join me on this wild ride and buckle up and tune in on march twenty four th my very first episode the truth with lisa booth every single wednesday on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

hemingway lisa boothe Hemingway ken burns cuba kennedy library Newt keri russell ken iheartradio gingrich Lynn novick red cross ambulance service sarah bot stein pbs Daniels meryl louise parker patricia clarkso hemingway young martha gal horn patricia mary Louise parker
The Apollo Missions Pt. 2: Global Conspiracy

Extraterrestrial

46:15 min | 2 years ago

The Apollo Missions Pt. 2: Global Conspiracy

"Hey bill. Did you know that extraterrestrial is part of an incredible collection of stitcher premium offerings. Yes i did. That's that's where everyone can find ad free archives of extraterrestrial episodes that are more than six months old but did you know that in addition to add free archives of every podcast or cast show you get original stitcher content full length comedy albums bonus episodes and add free archives of other exclusive podcasts. If you find yourself i'm listening to more and more podcasts. A subscription to stitcher premium is a great way to get content. You can't get anywhere else for a free trial. Go to stitcher premium liam dot com slash podcast and use promo code podcast that stitcher premium dot com slash podcast and use promo code podcast on november twenty second nineteen sixty three a single gunshot changed the course of american can history when lee harvey oswald assassinated president john f. kennedy this horrific day is notorious not just for its tragic events but also for the numerous conspiracy theories that have swirled around it. The grassy knoll the magic bullet was approved film. These are just some of the terms associated with the idea that there was more to kennedy's death than the government has led on but one item that many people aren't familiar with is a document referred to as the burned memo like many other j._f._k. Assassination theories the burned memo hints that the c._i._a. Had a hand in kennedy's death but it wasn't because he was weak on communism or had had botched the bay of pigs invasion it was because he was going to reveal the truth about what the american government knew about out you f. O.'s are we alone. Have have we been alone. Will we be alone. Stories of alien visitation have been ingrained in human history alien. Life may not be confirmed but our obsession with it can't be ignored. Welcome to extraterrestrial podcast original. I'm tim and i'm bill every tuesday. We visit the marvelous in strange stories about our encounters with beings from another world. We're aware that some of these tales may seem completely letelier unbelievable others may seem all too real but these stories shed light on human nature human beliefs and human psychology and each story worry has garnered hundreds if not millions of true believers and for that reason we think they're worth exploring welcome to our second and final episode sewed on the extraterrestrial theories surrounding the apollo missions last week. We examined suspected you afo encounters that occurred during the apollo ten ten and eleven moon missions we discussed strange events such as the outer space music the apollo ten astronauts thomas stafford gene cernan and and john young heard over the far side of the moon the also examined the unidentified object the apollo eleven astronauts neil armstrong buzz aldrin aldrin and michael collins saw as they flew towards the moon and how it spawned demonstrably false stories about lunar bases and powerful monoliths this week we'll be going back to the origins of the apollo missions and examining whether john f kennedy's desire to put a man on the moon may have been fueled by the pursuit of alien technology and whether his ideas of cooperation and openness with other countries may have fled to his tragic death. This episode is part of par cast summer of sixty nine event july twenty second through august ninth. All your favorite podcast shows does are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark summer in american history. The summer of nineteen sixty nine from the manson murders to the moon moon landing. We're diving deep into the summer. America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals. We'll be digging into the the fallout of m._l._k.'s assassination a wide reaching l._s._d. Colts and rumors of a kennedy family cover up you can find these specials and more all on our new new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts at park cast. We're grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know our our doing reach out on facebook and instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy today's episode the best way to the help is to leave a five star review. Wherever you're listening get really does help from the outset set of america's foray into outer space. The government was concerned with the possibility of encountering extraterrestrial life. When nasa was founded ended on july twenty ninth nineteen fifty-nine one of its core objectives was to study the long term implications that peaceful space exploration could a half for humanity to that end in the late summer of nineteen fifty-nine nasa commissioned a research group called the brookings institute to write a report identifying a wide range of studies in the social sciences that could be made of the potential benefits and problems arising from the peaceful use use of space after about a year and a half of research the reports which became commonly known as the brookings report was delivered to the white house in december nineteen eighteen sixty one of the sections in the one hundred sixty page document covered the quote implications of a discovery of extraterrestrial. You'll life according to the report. It is conceivable that there is semi intelligent life in some part of our solar system or highly intelligent life which is not technologically oriented and many cosmologists and astronomers think. It's very likely that there is intelligent agent life in many other solar systems although the brookings researchers thought it unlikely that contact with an intelligent extraterrestrial civilization would unquote occur within the next twenty years unless it's technology is far more advanced than ours qualifying to visit earth artifacts left at some point point in time by these life forms might possibly be discovered through our space activities on the moon mars or venus furthermore the report added added that quote if there is any contact to be made during the next twenty years it would most likely be by radio which would indicate that these beings had at least our own technological level the reports writers hoped that the knowledge that life existed in other parts of the universe might lead to a greater unity of men on earth but they were also concerned with how the discovery of extraterrestrial life would be released to the public the brookings researchers features asked how might such information be presented to or withheld from the public and for what ends what might be the role of the discovering scientists and the other decision makers regarding release of the fact of discovery however due to the change in presidential administrations between dwight d eisenhower and john f kennedy the brookings report wasn't released to congress until april eighteenth nineteen sixty sixty one about a week after the report's release kennedy made his thoughts on the possibility of withholding information very clear in a speech known as the president and the press we decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far far outweigh the dangers which i cited to justify although kennedy speech was addressing the recent bay of pigs fiasco during which a us-backed rebellion in cuba had failed his desire to have as much open communication as possible with the american public could just as easily apply to the recently released brookings reports but in the very same speech kennedy tackle the apparent hypocrisy of needing occasional government secrecy when it came to national security nevertheless every democracy recognizes the necessary restraints of national security and the question remains whether those restraints need to be more strictly observed if we ought to oppose this kind of attack as well as outright invasion here the potential invasion kennedy was describing was by the soviet union but some ufologists have interpreted his words as priming the american can people for the dangers of the u._s. As impending foray into space less than a month after his president and the press speech each kennedy announced his desire to have a man walk on the moon in an address to congress on may twenty fifth nineteen sixty one to most observers kennedy's as announcement was a direct challenge to the soviet union which had become the first country to successfully send a man into space just over a month earlier on april twelfth nineteen nineteen sixty. One kennedy seemingly backed up this sentiment in meetings with his staff on november twenty first nineteen sixty two. He told nasa director are james webb that this is whether we like it or not a race everything we do in space ought to be tied into getting to the moon ahead of the russians russians but kennedy's private actions indicated that perhaps there was a greater reason to go to the moon than simply winning the space race <music> on june third and fourth of nineteen sixty. One kennedy met with the soviet premier nikita khrushchev in vienna austria on on the surface. The purpose of this summit was for both sides to discuss the many issues between the two global superpowers according to a two thousand fifteen article on nassar's sa's official website by john. M logged in on the first day of meetings. Kennedy pulled khruschev aside for a private talk during this brief exchange exchange kennedy suggested that the u._s._a. and u._s._s._r. should combined forces and send a man to the moon together. This was a shocking king departure from his public stance on using the space race as a way to show superiority over the soviet union. Many ufologists believe that kennedy these secret proposal to khrushchev meant that there was something threatening enough on the moon that it warranted working together with america's greatest enemy and whatever it was it was enough of a danger to lead him to keep his plan secret for the time being however there was also another more or practical reason kennedy might have wanted to keep his suggestion under wraps his young presidency was off to a rough start the failed bay of pigs invasion in had been a huge embarrassment and to kennedy's opponents it was evident that he was incapable of going toe to toe with khrushchev and the u._s._s._r. If word got out that kennedy was offering an olive branch to russia his reputation might never recover and his administration could have been effectively over over before it had even begun but perhaps kennedy was more focused on the greater good of humanity than on his own political career. Maybe his offered a khrushchev was fueled by the brookings reports conclusion that if an alien civilization was discovered it could be a unifying force for mankind signed kennedy may have agreed with this conclusion but apparently khrushchev did not on the second day of meetings khrushchev chef told kennedy that the soviet union would not agree to conduct a joint mission to the moon with the united states. His reasoning was decidedly. Earthbound westbound khruschev insisted that before the two countries could go to space together. They had to come to an agreement regarding nuclear disarmament. He had a point point. It would be difficult for the u._s._a. And u._s._s._r. to unite forces in space if they were still at odds on earth maybe kennedy hannity believed a joint lunar mission would be a good first step towards eventual peace between the two superpowers or maybe thought that the threat of whatever was on the moon was so great that it transcended earthly squabbles. The general sentiment from the vienna summit was that kennedy badly bungled his meetings with khruschev off shortly after the summit ended kennedy told a new york times reporter that the summit was quote the worst thing in my life. He savaged me j._f._k. Himself admitted that he had been under prepared for the meetings. According to university of southern california journalism professor richard reeves kennedy didn't listen to his own advisers. He had no idea how tough it would be. Perhaps kennedy's proposal to combine moon missions was a moment of weakness against a powerful opponent or maybe he believed that cooperation in space could lead to cooperation on on earth regardless of his intent kennedy had to abandon his idea for a combined moon mission to deal with the incredibly complex political maneuvers <music> of the cuban missile crisis on october fourteenth nineteen sixty two an american youtube spy plane photographed soviet s. s. four medium range nuclear ballistic missiles being constructed in cuba with cuba located only ninety miles away. Hey from the florida coast. These missiles represented a huge threat to the united states. They could reach over two thirds of the u._s._a. Within three three minutes if they were unleashed the missiles could have killed up to eighty million american citizens kennedy knew that for the moment they had to put aside his goal of working with the soviet union in the interests of the american people no matter how great the threat of alien technology oh gee on the moon might be to american citizens. The threat of soviet missiles in cuba was even greater after a week of deliberations kennedy announced announced on october twenty second nineteen sixty two that he had ordered the navy to blockade cuba to stop the soviets from delivering any additional weaponry two days later on october twenty fourth russian ships approached the blockade ultimately they decided not to attempt to breach the american line nuclear war had been avoided for the moment coming up john f. kennedy continues tin use his push for a joint american soviet lunar mission. What if your doctor didn't know what was wrong with you. Medicine addison isn't always an exact science. Sometimes it's a guessing game when the world's most renowned experts can't explain what's wrong. We're left with a medical call mystery every week. The podcast original medical mysteries explores the bond formed between real life doctors and patients as they race to find the cure for unknown and often fatal elements medical mysteries uncovers a mysterious disease where patients symptoms included sudden bursts of maniacal laughter and then ultimately death you'll learn about a baby who had a tiny half formed twin sister growing inside her abdomen and you'll hear the heartbreaking story of a girl with a rare genetic condition that caused her body to age at a rate eight times faster than the average person. How how do you cure what you didn't know. Existed follow medical mysteries for free on spotify and wherever you get your podcasts or visit podcast dot com slash the medical mysteries till listen now now back to the story in the autumn of nineteen sixty two both united united states and russia were gearing up for a diplomatic and military stand-off over the placement of missiles in cuba. The situation worsened as has the year neared. Its end on october twenty seventh. An american reconnaissance plane was shot down over cuba after this act of aggression kennedy ordered the military to prepare the necessary forces to invade cuba khrushchev blinked first. He offered to dismantle the missiles missiles in cuba and in exchange the u._s. Privately agreed to remove their missiles in turkey. Although the negotiations were short they represented did some of the highest stakes diplomacy the united states had ever faced. It was a decisive success for kennedy and got him the respect from khrushchev jeff. He believed he deserved the cuban. Missile crisis may have been the most significant conflict in the cold war but it also represented a turning point in american in soviet relations on august thirtieth nineteen sixty. Three a direct line of communication was established between the u._s. and u._s._s._r. Dr symbolized by the iconic red phone. Although the cold war was far from over kennedy was prepared to once again propose joint joint moon mission between the two countries despite the clear hostility the soviet union had shown during the cuban missile crisis kennedy was still prepared a to work towards a joint lunar mission. Whatever was out there. Was that important to him. The only question was whether khrushchev felt the same way day. After the cuban missile crisis in late october nineteen sixty two relations between the united states and the soviet union began to improve by august nineteen sixty three kennedy felt comfortable enough to once again privately proposed a joint mission to the moon between the two superpowers even even though the u._s._a. and u._s._s._r. Had almost gone to war. The year before kennedy was committed to working together in space on august twenty sixth nineteen sixty three four days before a so called hotline between the u._s._a. U._s._s._r. would be installed. Kennedy met with the russian ambassador anatoly dobrynin in the oval office. The two men discussed a wide range of topics including china nuclear testing germany any laos cuba trade civil aviation agreements and space once again. Kennedy suggested a joint lunar mission between the two countries according to a nineteen ninety seven interview with khrushchev's son sergei. The soviet premier was seriously considering accepting kennedy's kennedy's offer before moving forward. Kennedy wanted to be sure he'd have nasa support in the event that khruschev accepted his proposal on september eighteenth nineteen sixty three kennedy met with nasa chief james webb and they briefly discussed kennedy's desire to conduct joint mission of course kennedy. Kennedy didn't need webb's permission to combine forces with the u._s._s._r. But it was important to have web as an ally rather than an adversary when kennedy broke the idea of cooperating with soviet union web indicated it would be all right with him. Two days later on september twentieth nineteen eighteen sixty three kennedy finally made his intentions regarding the lunar mission known to the public in a speech to the u._n. General assembly finally in a field where the the united states and the soviet union have a special capacity in the field of space. There is room for new cooperation her for further joint efforts in the regulation and exploration of space. I include among these possibilities. A joint expedition expedition to the moon kennedy had made good on the resolution to be more open with the american public that he had made in his president and the press speech over two years earlier. Perhaps with the cuban missile crisis firmly in the rear view mirror kennedy finally felt comfortable publicly discussing his true desires four cooperation with the soviet union but there was still a limit to kennedy's transparency. If the reason for the joint mission had to do with alien alien technology on the moon he remained silent about it for the time being. If there really was alien technology on the moon it could cause widespread panic panic. If kennedy divulged everything he knew or maybe he didn't know exactly what was on the moon and preferred to stay silence until he knew the extent sense of what the apollo astronauts might encounter there according to sergei khrushchev his father was fully prepared to go forward with kennedy's plan and despite opposition kennedy was facing at home he was fully committed to moving forward with it as well on november twelfth nineteen sixty. The three kennedy issued a memo to nasa director. James webb titled cooperation with the u._s._s._r. On outer space matters in the memo komo kennedy instructed web to quote assume personally the initiative and central responsibility for the development of a program of substantive antef cooperation with the soviet union in the field of outer space kennedy added quote. I would like an interim report on the progress of our planning running by december fifteenth. Tragically kennedy never got a chance to see webb's first reports on november twenty the second one thousand nine hundred sixty three ten days after writing the memo john f. kennedy was assassinated in dallas texas after kennedy's death jeff his successor lyndon johnson scrapped all plans of a joint lunar mission with the u._s._s._r. Cooperation with the soviets was out the the window. The space race was officially back on although he had been kennedy's vice president johnson had a much more hard line approach. When it came to the soviet union since the late nineteen fifties he had been extremely concerned with the possibility of the soviet union placing placing weapons in space. If there was alien technology on the moon johnson wanted to be sure the soviets didn't get it shortly after winning reelection election in november nineteen sixty four he said i do not believe that this generation of americans is willing to resign itself to going to bed by the light of a communist moon by the time johnson was in office the u._s._a. Had pulled ahead of the u._s._s._r. In space technology he he felt extremely confident that america would get to the moon. I and nasa inched closer to developing the technology needed to get there. They had had to decide where the astronauts would land on november sixth nineteen sixty six nasa launched an unmanned spacecraft called lunar orbiter to to photograph potential landing sites on the moon the photos the orbiter took were available to the public and on november twenty third nineteen sixty six the washington post ran an article describing photos that contained quote six mysterious statuesque shadows according to the article quote ranging from one about twenty feet long to another as long as seventy five feet. The six shadows were hailed by scientists as one of the most unusual features of the moon ever photographed scientists said they have no idea what his casting the shadows the largest artist shadow is just the sort that would be cast by something resembling the washington monument on february first nineteen sixty seven a member of boeing's wings biotechnology unit named william blair told the l._a. Times that the structures had been discovered on earth it would be assumed that they were artificial official in nature and may have archaeological significance when blair analyze the structures further he discovered that they formed what appeared to be a geometric a pattern made of right angle and i saw some of these triangles in his mind this pattern indicated that there was some purpose behind the structure's layout and that they weren't natural formations these structures which became known as the blair cusp ids were located at the western edge of the sea of tranquility about three hundred kilometers from where the apollo eleven astronauts would land in the summer of nineteen sixty nine although although the blair cuss bids certainly had a strange appearance most scientists agreed that they were nothing more than interesting formations on the lunar surface and their proximity similar to the apollo eleven landing site was merely a coincidence additionally three hundred kilometers isn't exactly walking distance the farthest or this neil armstrong and buzz aldrin went from the lunar module was sixty meters furthermore the astronauts didn't collect any photographs of the blair cuss bids from orbit however ufologists such as ivan t sanderson continued to believe that the blair cuss bids were part official structures in nineteen seventy sanderson wrote an article in argosy magazine describing lunar structures. He believed were the work of intelligent beings. This theory seemed to be supported by stories like the mysterious space music. The apollo ten astronauts heard and the alleged u._f._o. Encounters buzz aldrin and neil armstrong had when they explored the lunar surface however concrete proof that the government was hiding something was elusive in nineteen ninety nine though thirty years after neil armstrong became the first man to walk on the moon the proof that the government was covering up what it knew about u._f._o.'s finally arrived and even more incredibly it was tied into the assassination of john f kennedy coming up we investigate the possibility that kennedy was assassinated needed because of what he knew about u._f._o.'s and now the conclusion of our story in late november nineteen sixty six ufologists discovered photos of what could possibly be artificial structures on the moon three years later the apollo eleven astronauts landed did less than three hundred kilometers from where these structures known as the blair cuss bids were located although nasa insisted the blair cupboards were or natural formations and their proximity to the apollo eleven landing site was a mere coincidence many within the u._f._o. Community continued to suspect the government was concealing the presence of alien technology on the moon but on june twenty third nineteen ninety nine a ufologist named timothy see cooper received a package that would change how the u._f._o. Community viewed the lunar missions for ever the package sent by an anonymous nona source claiming to be a retired c._i._a. Counterintelligence agent contained the pages of charred nine page memo in in a letter accompanying the memo the anonymous agents said the papers had belonged to james angleton the director of c._i._a. Counterintelligence from nineteen fifty four four to one thousand nine hundred seventy five after angleton died in nineteen eighty seven the anonymous agent claimed responsibility for burning his top secret papers tapers however there was one document in particular that the agent couldn't burn a memo that revealed kennedy's assassination was connected connected to u._f._o.'s according to the letter. The agent literally grabbed the papers from the fire before they could become completely consumed. Cooper wbur couldn't believe his is the anonymous agents letter that accompanied the memo didn't explicitly state why they had chosen cooper to receive this information but cooper suspected it was because of his long standing interests in both the kennedy assassination and u._f._o.'s for a little over ten years ears cooper had been making freedom of information act requests for documents on the kennedy assassination passed in nineteen sixty seven this act requires requires federal agencies to disclose any information requested by an american citizen unless it could be harmful to a governmental or private interest i with much of the information regarding the kennedy assassination still highly classified cooper's requests had gone unanswered. Cooper was also involved in the u._f._o. Community and his requests for information on that subject had also gone ignored but judging by the content of the agents letter although cooper's freedom of information act requests had been ignored. They hadn't gone unnoticed as a private investigator cooper had worked on on many u._f._o. Cases including research on the roswell incident of nineteen forty seven when many ufologists believed in alien spacecraft had crashed in the new mexico mexico desert. He believed he was on the government's radar. Which is how the agent had chosen him. Cooper's hands trembled as he gingerly flip through the crisp pages of the nine page memo which was written by the director of the c. i. a. john mccone one phrase in particular nearly made eight cooper's heart. Stop quote as you must know. Lancer has made some inquiries regarding our activities that we cannot allow now the reason this phrase was so significant was that lancer was kennedy's secret service codename clearly the c._i._a. <unk> director was concerned about kennedy learning about something. He shouldn't apparently that topic was u._f._o.'s. Another page of the memo was labeled. Directive regarding precedence is only it read quote in the likely event that at the subject of unidentified flying objects or unconventional aerial weapons is a subject matter under discussion with the chief executive under no circumstances stances should a member suggest that the subject is classified as a national security threats and quote so there was implication here. That kennedy didn't yet know everything that the c._i._a. Knew evidently kennedy was not privy to whatever the government knew about u._f._o.'s us and the cia was desperate to keep it that way so desperate in fact that they were willing to end kennedy's life the memo's ammos final page contained a cryptic message quote when conditions become non-conducive for growth in our environment and washington cannot influenced any further. The weather is lacking any precipitation. It could be wet on the surface. This message seems like complete nonsense however to a train. I its contents are all too clear. The phrase wet works is spy jargon for assassination facination. The insinuation was that if kennedy couldn't be convinced to stop looking into u._f._o.'s the c._i._a. Would have to assassinate him. After reading the memo cooper called his ufology partner robert wood a retired physicist who had worked as the aerospace manager for the contracting firm mcdonnell douglas after cooper told him about the memo would quickly made the two hour drive from newport beach to cooper's house in big bear lake california looking at what they dubbed the burned memo together cooper and would estimated that the document which was not dated was probably written by c._i._a. Director director john mccone sometime around september nineteen sixty. Three kennedy made his stunning announcement to the u._n. About his desire to conduct induct a joint lunar mission with the soviet union on september twenty second nineteen sixty three in the first page of the memo the author asks the recipients to submit their views on this proposal no later than october so cooper and would concluded that the memo must have been written shortly after kennedy speech. Perhaps the month long gap between kennedy's u._n. Speech and his directive to james webb to begin pursuing avenues for joint lunar mission and was because john mccone and his fellow conspirators were trying to convince kennedy not to look too deeply into u._f._o.'s but then when when kennedy decided to go forward with his plan and presumably share whatever alien technology they found on the moon with the soviets the c._i._a. Decided guided to take drastic measures according to robert wood a forensics company had tested the ink on the memo to determine its age apparently differently the results confirmed that the ink dated to sometime around the time kuprin would had estimated the memo was written nineteen sixty three however would has never actually made the results public and they have never been confirmed while it would be thrilling if the burned memo was authentic all evidence points to it being a hoax the biggest indication that the memo is probably fake is the extensive references to m._j. Twelve the supposed secret government organization in charge of keeping u._f._o.'s and other extraterrestrial information hidden. I'm from the public as we mentioned in last week's episode and have covered in other podcast m._j. Twelve is almost certainly not real although the the f._b._i. Officially confirmed m._j. Twelve was fake in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight. Many ufologists have a deep distrust of the government and still believe that the shadowy data we organization exists however it's not just the mentions of m._j. Twelve that indicate the burned memo is a hoax. A major tip off is that the memo refers to kennedy as lancer while this was his secret service codename the c._i._a. Designation for kennedy was g._p. Ideal additionally the fact that such a memo would even exist is highly unlikely although there have been instances of top secret information being leaked because it was put on paper such as the pentagon papers putting a plot to assassinate the president in writing is on a completely different level also if by some chance the burned memo was authentic. There's almost no way jim angleton would have been foolish enough to keep it in his files else and not destroy it immediately after reading it but for those who continue to believe that the burned memo was authentic. Their case was bolstered in two thousand eleven. When paranormal researcher william lester revealed he had obtained another memo that confirmed kennedy's interest in u._f._o.'s unlike the burned memo which was supposedly sent by an anonymous counterintelligence agent lester claimed he had obtained his document from the c._i._a. A._a._a. via the freedom of information act the memo titled classification review of all u._f._o. Intelligence files affecting national security was written from kennedy to c._i._a. Director john mccone on november twelfth nineteen sixty three the same day kennedy ordered james webb to begin researching ways. He's to conduct a joint lunar mission with the u._s._s._r. In the memo kennedy wrote i have instructed james webb to develop a program with the soviet union in joint space and lunar exploration. It would be very helpful if you would have the high threat cases reviewed with the purpose of identification nation of bona fide as opposed to classified cia in u._s._a._f. Sources it is important that we make a clear distinction between the knowns and unknowns in the event. The soviets tried to mistake our extended cooperation as a cover for intelligence gathering of their defense and space programs grams. Although kennedy didn't explicitly refer to u._f._o.'s by name lesser believed he was trying to figure out the distinction between authentic u._f._o. Case as an accidental sightings of classified american military aircraft kennedy was also planning on sharing that information about the u._f._o.'s with the soviet union. If this was the case then this new memo could be the so called missing link that supported the theory that the c._i._a. A yea was behind kennedy's assassination however there are reasons to believe that this memo is also fake according to a research technician mission at the john f kennedy presidential library. There wasn't a copy of the memo in the archives and there's little chance that the archives are incomplete. The technician who wished to remain anonymous told journalists natalie walsh over in two thousand eleven that j._f._k. Kept carbon copies of all his letters. I even those that were classified. Furthermore the technician pointed out that the memo was quote sanitized in very odd places the director's actor's name the top heading of the document which usually distinguishes which agency is generating it and the tiny top secret print at the top of the letter her top secret items are usually stamped in large dark ink on the letter. Finally the signature on the memo is redacted. Although although kennedy's printed name was not if the point was to conceal his identity then all mentions of kennedy's name would have probably been redacted additionally additionally if the memo was obtained through a freedom of information act requests. There's little chance that it could have come from anywhere other than the kennedy library. Any document procured through the freedom of information act has to be through an official source which in this case would have been the kennedy library. The most most logical explanation regarding this memo is that it was a fake unfortunately in the end. There's no concrete proof that john f kennedy's death had anything to do with alien technology or u._f._o.'s however that isn't to say there wasn't anything strange about his behavior when it came to arranging joint lunar mission with the soviet union the fact that he would i propose the possibility to khrushchev shortly after the brookings things report was released was definitely somewhat odd and kennedy's continued efforts to arrange the joint mission show that it was definitely an important goal for him but aside from bizarre formations on the lunar surface and the false stories about a phone counter as neil armstrong and buzz aldrin had during their mission the question is if there are any legitimate incidents astronauts had that can point to any extraterrestrial activity on the moon one event that particularly stands out is the moon music that the apollo ten astronauts heard in may nineteen sixty nine as they he crossed the far side of the moon as we discussed in last week's episode the strange event baffled the apollo ten crew but after returning into communications range with mission control they decided not to say anything although the audio tapes and transcripts from the mission were officially declassified safai in one thousand nine hundred seventy six they were somewhat difficult to obtain because they can only be accessed at nasa's official library in washington d._c. But in two thousand sixteen nasa digitize the tapes and release them online making it incredibly easy for anyone to listen to what the apollo ten ten astronauts heard with this accessibility came the explanation of what caused the mysterious music apparently the sound was caused housed by radio interference between the command module and the lunar module the reason that the astronauts had anticipated this happening was that apollo ten was the first time both vehicles were orbiting the moon at the same time with that question answered the only unexplained events relating to the apollo missions was the object that the apollo eleven astronaut saw their approach to the moon although buzz aldrin was certain that the object it was just a panel that had separated from the lunar module during separation from one of their booster rockets. There was no way to officially verify what the object i was therefore even though the object probably wasn't a spacecraft remains an unidentified flying object in the truest sense of the term with all the information available to us we can also rate the believability of the extraterrestrial elements of the apollo missions on on a scale of one to ten ultimately. There just isn't any evidence that there were any actual u._f._o. Encounters during the apollo missions additionally there's no real indication that john f kennedy's assassination had anything to do with aliens although his desire to conduct a joint lunar mission with the soviet the union could have been motivated by the brookings reports conclusion that the discovery of alien life could unify humanity. There simply isn't any actual evidence to support that theory in the end. The believability factor for this case is a one the apollo missions were one of the most incredible feats in all of human history when all is said and done adding aliens to the equation equation almost cheapens the achievement of putting a man on the moon but with new discoveries being made in space every day such as the recent photograph the graph of a black hole. Maybe someday humanity will make contact with an alien species. They just probably will be further away than the moon. Thanks again for tuning into our extra terrestrial summer of sixty nine special if you enjoyed this episode checkout park has continued retrospective into the summer of sixty nine from july twenty second can't through august ninth the summer of sixty nine will feature twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from vietnam war protests to these zodiac killer. We'll be back with a new episode of extraterrestrial next week. If you're interested in learning more about the summer of sixty nine be sure to check out our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and instagram at par cast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. Extraterrestrial was created by max cutler alert. It's a production of cutler media and part of the podcast network. It's produced by maxon ron cutler sound designed by andy weights with production assistance by ron shapiro hero and paul molitor additional production assistance by maggie admire and freddie beckley. This episode of extraterrestrial was written by alex benetton and stars bill thomas and tim johnson. Don't forget to check out medical mysteries each week. It follows a different patient as doctors race against the clock to diagnose the most mysterious ailments they've ever seen from the bizarre into the terrifying. How do you cure what you didn't know existed. Follow medical mysteries for free on spotify and wherever you get your podcasts or visit parkhouse dot com slash medical mysteries to listen now.

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Rejoining The World

Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump

45:43 min | 6 months ago

Rejoining The World

"The people have spoken. They delivered us a clear victory tonight. We're seeing all over this nation indeed across the world an outpouring of joy of hold renewed faith in tomorrow bring a better day. Imagine things had gone a bit differently. But if joe biden had won the election. But that's it. No georgia runoffs. The senate majority no american rescue plan. No long debates over budget reconciliation or the filibuster or voting rights the gulf between that world. And this one is almost too vast to fathom but we came so so close to living in it would be biden's presidency of looked like then well for one thing we probably wouldn't be talking about biden's legislative legacy with congress gridlock biden would have had to make more use of his executive powers and democrats would probably devote more resources to trump accountability. The only part of the story that might have preceded unchanged is in the sphere of foreign policy. That's where for better and worse the president's powers our greatest and least reviewable and with much less news on the legislative front to absorb we would have taken greater notice of some pretty big developments biden rejoin the paris climate accord. He's begun the process of trying to salvage the deal to denuclearize iran. His administration has said about exposing international corruption and hopes to establish a global minimum corporate tax depriving multinational firms of the powered dodge. Civic responsibilities. in the countries where they operate biden may even join a multilateral boycott of the twenty twenty two beijing olympics in a global mass protests of the weaker genocide and other human rights abuses less auspiciously biden declined to sanction mohammed bin salman for ordering the murder of washington. Post journalist. jamal khashoggi the administration rolled out new visa restrictions and some new sanctions for those close to the crown prince but no punishment for the one person we now know was behind kashogi. He's murder. He ordered an air strike in syria and has slow-walked promised withdrawal from afghanistan. Hard to meet the may one deadline instant terms of tactical reasons hard to get those troops out but it is not my intention to stay there for a long time this only scratches the surface but all of these developments and others fit into a larger story and more abstract series of challenges can biden restore america to physician of global leadership. Does he spire to make that leadership. A worthier thing than it has been historically. What does the world look like without it. Biden has talked a lot about the importance of conducting foreign policy on a multilateral basis. I'll be president will stand with our allies in france and make it clear to our adversaries. The days of cozying up to dictators is over. And i'll always stand for our values of human rights and dignity working common purpose for more secure peaceful and prosperous world. But we're only a few weeks beyond the trump presidency and nothing is stopping trump from running again with that looming in the back of their minds will other leaders partner with biden did their experience with the trump years shake their faith in american commitment to allies to western democracy very notion of representative government. I guess this week is tommy vitor. Before he was pod saving america in the world he served as a spokesman for president obama's national security council here to discuss whether american global leadership salvageable. How biden can save it. Whether it's worth salvaging at all i'm brian boiler welcome to rubicon. Great to see you you too buddy. I love the conversation with With perry bacon in particular was that last week. Yeah that was last week. He's so smart. The kind of the lack of certainty came through in a way. That didn't unlike some other writing about this. You know what. I mean humil- if you got a pc wrote probably a couple months ago all about that is like the problem with certainty and trying to be a predictor in punditry like a good analyst in politics starts with the assumption that you have no fucking clue what's going to happen and go from there. But don't get the clicks that way though right. So i wanna rewind a bit by thinking back to the democratic primary Do you remember what you thought. The foreign policy stakes were particularly. I guess between biden and bernie sanders. It was so under emphasize that that you know. Do it was more the stakes more narrow and specific on issues like the one that really jumps out to me in my memory is the willingness to put pressure on the israeli government over annexation of the west bank. The whole bunch candidates came out and said they would be willing to consider conditioning Aid to israel if annexation occurred I think biden was unwilling to even suggested they would consider sort of a carrot and stick approach that would involve conditioning. So i think that was something that stood out to me pretty clearly. Yeah well so biden wins. The primary with i guess you could say more conventional in dc terms anyway view of global politics and then the general election. What did you think of is the foreign policy stakes of that election. I mean i thought the stakes of the general election were really like the continuation of us democracy or not. You know what. I mean it it. It felt that fundamental just in terms of our commitment to our our our own values and our democracy. Here you know what i am. I'm the nationalists. Okay look we have to stand with hong kong. But i'm also standing with president xi. He's a friend of mine. He's an incredible guy. We have to have great confidence in my intelligence people. But i will tell you that. President putin was extremely strong and in his denial today and what he did is that you also had people that were very fine people. On both sides you had people in that group. Excuse me excuse me. We were sending the absolute wrong message to everyone around the world and you starting to see countries you know invade places that they might not have actually had pressure Do things that were crimes against humanity. Like trump basically stopped talking about human rights abroad right like john. Bolton is former national security adviser wrote in his book that donald trump told president xi jinping of that building concentration camps for like a million plus leaguers and reeducating them Which is the santa down version of. What's happening there. It's cultural genocide. You told xi jinping that that was the right thing to do right so it's not just like Rights issues were under emphasized. So those are the stakes to me so it sounds like the proposition table is something like if biden wins he gets to pick up the pieces of a bunch of shattered alliances and a corrupted foreign policy and have to convince the world that the us hadn't fundamentally changed despite everything trump did whereas if trump had one you know who knows where it would've ended but we would have been further down the line of the us forming a partnership among global autocracies in in rivalry with european democracies which are kind of in their own fragile state. I think that's exactly right. I mean listen. We are all accustomed to the post world war two global world order where you know. The un has been a key actor and a lot of debates and conflicts where nato is a global line structure that we value in lean on In nc is critical global security. We have all these alliances in asia and for some reason trump just slowly walked away from all of those alliances right. I mean he refused to recommit to article five which is The provision in the nato charter. That says an attack on one country is an attack on all basically the the fact that us would come to the defense of nato country if attacked which essentially just unravels the entire line. So yeah i mean he. Basically was walking away from the key. Alliances that every president since world war two has leaned on and he was oddly A big fan of berating leaders of democracies especially women. Right so like you could see that. A lot of countries whether we're talking europe or asia. We're trying to figure out what a post united states path might look like for themselves. They couldn't depend on us anymore. I was kinda raised on a on a sanders. Ask critique of us military hegemony. I still hope that in my lifetime someone with sanders is doubts about the way. Us wield its power in the world. Institute's a more humble confident approach to To us global leadership. But i i kind of think that in practice. What trump showed is that the proposition on the table. Right now isn't whether america will be a big imperial power. Not but whether will use imperial power for the most base corrupt purposes At least some higher values will be driving things and when you serve that choice. A lot of the higher minded critiques of us foreign policy kind of drain away. Yeah me like you. And i kind of like came up in politics during the iraq. War or the run-up iraq war right. And i think you know. Wait when you look at the damage. That conflict did to the region into the entire world. It's hard not to Have a ton of sympathy for the leftist critique of us hegemony in us foreign policy when you really dig into the things that the cia was doing in the fifties and sixties and seventies and the coups. We're fermenting and the dictators propping up. The guy. I think i'm kind of like a elizabeth warren domestic policy brain and then more of bernie sanders foreign policy brain which might surprise people since i worked for obama. Who's called the liberal. But you know. I think there are areas where the united states has and will continue to provide indispensable leadership for example. I think that if the us is not out leading the charge on climate change we will not any targets. We need to meet to prevent the plant from melting. I think of the. Us is not in front leading the charge on developing nations vaccines in improving vaccine equity. Then no one will do it. So there's a clear role for the us to play in the world's that doesn't have to be militarized one though. That's kind of the key distinction. Yeah so biden. Talks a lot about foreign policy as a as a matter of relationships and specifically about his own longstanding relationships with a lot of global leaders today so as relieved as some of them have been to to see biden win into now. Have a familiar face charge in the us. Do you have any sense of how rattled. They were by trump and whether the experience of living through the trump presidency is complicating binds efforts to work multi-laterally with them like. Are they suspicious. It's a great question. I've wondered that myself. I would imagine that there will be countries. There will be partners who feel sufficiently burned by the us. Walking away from promises. Or or alliances that del rethink like forging ties that close. I'll be honest with you. I would be surprised if there are that many countries that feel that way i mean most countries understand that like us political leadership changes And and that you know our approach to foreign policy can change with it. I do suspect that. There's a lot of relief among traditional you. Partner countries like australia countries like Germany who like for no reason. Donald trump just loved kicking around markle. Who has been the stalwart leader In europe for like a decade or more. And so i. I assume that set will be relieved. I think a lot of allies in asia will be relieved. I kind of interpret everything we've talked about thus far too. That biden has a couple main overarching tasks. One is convincing purely eaters that he specifically is a trustworthy partner with sound judgment and the other is convincing them that. Us democracy is healthy enough. That while party will may change in the us. We're not inexorably on a road to kleptocracy. And they can look ahead to the future with the us without wondering if we're going to scrap alliances with democracies and forged them with russia china saudi arabia. Yeah i mean. I think there's a couple of ways you can quickly summarize. Maybe the trump approach right. It was it was capricious one day. He would just get mad in tweet about something. And all of a sudden we'd be in a tariff war with china. I think countries like moving on from that. But you're you're right to flag this kleptocracy piece. Because i think some countries quickly figured out that The way to his heart was was through his wallet that they could offer personal favors and that would be kind of a new and exciting way for them to do business and get around Traditional hurdles that they dealt with when to share with the us all right so then. Let's talk about what biden has done. So far into extent day advance his goals and to what extent that cut against him. It seems like the big faith restoring steps. He's taken are still works in progress like he rejoined the paris agreement. Which i i kinda took as a bit of a gimme but beyond that. He wants to reenter the iran deal. He wants to reform the two thousand one Military force authorization He says he wants to withdraw from afghanistan and more recently he's his administration has talked about reviving anti corruption as a foreign policy goal. So what do you make of that list. And how hopeful are you that he'll accomplish those things. Yeah look i agree with you. The rejoining the paris climate accord's was both a gimme and also i think probably largely symbolic We need to tighten down those targets if we're really going to prevent some of the most devastating consequences from climate change. That said i mean. We went from having a president of the united states. That rhetorically was to the right of the president of basically every other country When it comes to climate change to that is actually committed to it and that is trying to embed Climate change in all parts of the us government in all policy making. So i think you know ultimately that's a really good thing and there are some reports yesterday. Brian that the the us might be considering essentially doubling the targets for for emissions reduction. that's true or not but it's like a headline i saw yesterday. Yeah i saw that too. And i made me excited about it. Is that the whole knock on biden if you want to call it a knock is that he setting goals. He knows he can beat so that he can. You know take a victory lap and it's like if he's setting this goal and he beats it. We're going to be in much better shape than i thought we were going to be in. Yes agreed i mean and obviously like you know setting goals that you can you can beat by just being competent and and you know having people who are like good at logistics is very different than getting the entire world to switch from using fossil fuels. But i i'm with you. Like i wanna see him said a big ambitious target and do our best to meet it right. I mean what else what is government for if not that kind of that kind of work. Okay so what about the more like warren peace the deal and the in particular were like the big big early ones. I think yes. There's finally some progress when it comes to the us. Reentering the jcp away. The iran deal. Hey it's brian here. To bring you a quick primer on the iran deal before timing. I get into the details. Jcp away stands for the joint comprehensive plan of action. It's an agreement between the us iran china and other global powers. The took effect during the obama years to stop iran from developing nuclear weapons. The us initiated the deal and really led the charge to get him to sign it so it was devastating when president trump pulled out of it seemingly just to settle scores with president obama while justifying the decision with lies and propaganda in iran off the hook and as you'd expect iran went right back to enriching uranium trump. Replace the iran deal with brutal sanctions on the country which ultimately hurt everyday rains. Not their leaders. President biden wants to revive the iran deal. But he can't just do that without acknowledging one way or another the we're the ones who blew up in the first place. The deal can only survive in an environment of mutual concessions which trump and his loyalists site to try to weaken biden politically at home. While vowing to blow the deal up all over again if they get back into power. The challenge for biden is all the usual suspects in washington. Dc all the gulf country. Funded think tanks and right-wingers like tom cotton and all these folks are making all the same arguments which is that The bill the agreement is flawed. It doesn't do enough doesn't deal with the fact that you know. The iran supports terrorism. It doesn't deal with iran human rights record right so they're trying to lard up thing and naked so complicated way can pass it. I was a little worried about The the delay that you know the biden folks had in terms of getting back. The talks with iranians. There has been this dance about who goes. First when it comes to re entering the deal like the biden folks want to see The stop certain enrichment activities. The iranians say they want sanctions relief. I all dissensions have to be removed. The united states must gain reentry to the j. c. is not automatic is not a revolving door. It seems like these talks started this week in vienna where the europeans weren't intermediary it seems like they've negotiated at framework to get both sides to move simultaneously. Which would get us back into the deal. And then once you're back in the deal once. Iran is in enriching more nuclear materials You can try to negotiate a follow on agreement or you can try to negotiate about some the other other areas that the right wingers wanna talk about but the key thing to know for all the listeners. Here is like the maximum pressure strategy. That trump put forward where he just you know pulled out of the deal and tried to crush their economy with sanctions hurt a lot of innocent people in iran and now iran has more enriched nuclear material than they did in the deal so it was a disastrous failure. So i'm glad to see biden's finally moving forward in and trying to get back into the thing part of the question about who goes first and how quickly you move is about domestic politics here in the us. Yeah but there are domestic political considerations in iran to like as you mentioned the other day that they have an election coming up later this year. How does that cut. Do you think that the election looming there is something that should speed things along or is it an impediment to reestablishing the deal. Oh it's a good question. I mean look. This is the question that we're all trying to figure out which is president ruhani is like. He's not a moderate in any way but compared to some of the hardest hardliners in iran like the g. See the generals. Right he is. He is more moderate than them. He's termed out so there will be a new president. Elected in june in the question is who is that person do they support any talks with the. Us does the whole country feel sufficiently burned by the us pulling out of the jcp away that they won't do business with us again right so that to me creates a bit of a time crunch in squeeze here where i'd like to see us be back in the deal before those elections occur so that you know the easiest part of the problem at least feels managed coming up. We look at biden's plan to stop corporations from cheating on their taxes by using overseas tax shelters and we tackle the biggest challenge of all the rapid spread of autocracies around. The world can biden style of democracy. Beat back that tied when we return. Rubicon is brought to you by bev. Bev is female. I can't wind brand. 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You can learn about that period in history with the kennedy library. Foundations podcast. Jfk thirty five. This season's episodes look at the power of the president's words and the history of voting rights in america with our guests stacey abrams and if you've ever wondered how ernest hemingway's papers ended up at the kennedy library. Listen to our episode featuring lynn novick as she talks about her hemingway documentary with. Ken burns coming out this spring on. Pbs it's jfk. Thirty five podcasts. Find it on apple podcasts. Google play spotify or wherever. You get podcasts. We'll come back to rubicon. My guest is crooked. Media's tommy tour. We're talking about the steps taken by the administration to right the ship on the global stage. One thing we haven't talked about yet is biden's plan to clamp down on international corruption. He wants to tax big corporations that shelter their money overseas and his administration is sanctioning foreign officials for corrupt practices. You look at someone like vladimir putin or viktor orban. These are autocratic leaders that are propped up in part by massive corruption right like corruption becomes an antidemocratic force. So i think the thinking is if you can crack down on global corruption You can reduce the power of some of these leaders who are using money and and using carve-outs and special favors for their friends to to stay. Charge you know. There's also frankly the legal corruption right. Which is us companies Inverting their corporate structure in pretending they exist in ireland or whatever to skirt taxes. In you know Janet yellen came out in favor of some steps to crack down that kind of activity. I'm glad they're putting this forward. It was something bernie. Sanders talked about a lot in the primary which was great. I'm not exactly how sure how will take shape. But i think it's an important plank. Is it doable. do you think like it. I i never been closer than a newspaper. Article a global initiative like this but negotiating global corporate minimum tax sounds about as complicated undertaking. Anything i can think of like like kyoto but for taxes or something like that. I mean that was my exact reaction which was a great idea. Janet yellen you're a hell of a lot smarter than me. Good luck with that. I have no idea how this works so on the other side of the coin things that i think. A lot of people root for biden found disappointing where airstrikes he ordered in syria. Us president joe biden ordered airstrikes on buildings used by iranian backed militias in eastern syria. The action was retaliation for the militias strikes in iraq last week. That wounded you. His response to the kashogi murder president biden chose not to punish mohammed bin salman. The administration rolled out new visa strict. And you know his general continuation of the status quo in the us relationship with saudi arabia. Yeah what was your view on those things and what what do allies. How did they respond when they see the sort of continuation of how things were under trump. Yeah i mean listen i. I'm glad that biden released the the intelligence report on jamal khashoggi murder. I'm glad we named the. Us name solomon as being behind that disgusting attack journalists dissident That's add the fact that he wasn't punished was extremely disappointing. I think that we really do need to right size. Our entire relationship with with saudi arabia. Part of that has started. You know biden. Said he was gonna cut off support for offensive military operations in the civil war in yemen. That's the saudi led coalition against the hootie rebels. I i'd like to see biden even more specific about what that means because this is a conflict in yemen that has led to just humanitarian catastrophe. But you know. I think stepping back like trump's entire middle east approach was cozying up to Autocrats right and places like saudi arabia. The uae cutting deals with them and it does seem like biden is very quickly backing away from from that approach. That's good by the time. I left office vice president. I had spent more time. She's than any world leader. I spent hours upon hours with him. My interpreter and his going into great detail is very very straightforward doesn't have a democratic with a small d bone in his body. He's one of the guys like putin. Who thinks autocracy is the wave of the future. Democracy can't function in a complex world. Biden seems fond of this sort of fdr ask argument that his domestic success or failure will have a big foreign policy implications because democracy is in such a fragile state. Internationally that if someone can't prove that it works to help people Then the world would just keep backsliding towards a more you know authoritarian or storage motive leadership. I predict to you. your children. Grandchildren are going to be doing their doctoral thesis on issue of who succeeded autocracy or democracy because that is what is at stake not just with china. Look around the world. We're in the midst of a fourth industrial revolution of enormous consequence. Do you think he's right about that. Is that how tenuous. The situation is in the world. I think you you can trace back a lot of the problems. We're seeing today from the global financial crisis so we can get the global economy cooking again. I i do think that will help improve things generally but you know like i'm wary of simple sounding rhetorical ties. I i do think this is a long game and there's a lot of complexity here. Yeah i mean. I i think i'm sold on the like the historical analysis that the new deal was an important part of the ideological victory over communism and fascism crush. The army's you had to prove that instituting democratic governments around the world would be better for the people lived in them And so. I feel like in theory. You could end up in a situation like that again where you have a rise of these nefarious forces around the world and you need to show. The better system works But it's just unclear to me if you can draw a straight line between you know the The american rescue plan passes. America has a glorious comeback and everyone says hey that's a that's a better model than what we got going in russia. it can't just be. That biden has to oversee a high level of gdp and people in the united state's feeling optimistic about the future like he needs to govern well and then also he needs to be rewarded with reelection. The democratic party needs to be rewarded with good election. outcomes So do you see consequences if the united states having just been through this sort of crisis of democracy elect someone like biden who's got real liberal democratic commitments. He governs well but because the us doesn't have a perfect democracy at all you know. His party can't hold onto power despite governing. Well so like is the question okay. So in the next few months year plus republicans and a bunch of states pass voter suppression bills. A gerrymander the shit. Out of the bunch of districts and we lose the house in twenty twenty two. Does that have an impact on the state of global democracy. Yeah i feel like that's a hard argument to make you know what i mean like i think were. I think that there's probably a bunch of think tanks in in dc. That might think that way. But i i don't know i i'm not sold on that. What about twenty twenty four hand. Look if trump wins again. I think it. It's it's the worst possible signal about you know where america is heading so that makes me very nervous. Yes know how important is trump to that equation. I guess is what. I'm trying to ask like whether or not biden wins in twenty twenty four. Is there a difference between trump coming back and winning reelection versus another republican. That is part of this. Very trump party now or would president tom cotton or something be salutary in some way and in not continuing trump's more kleptocratic tendencies the a good question. I think probably depends on the person like i think that trump is a singular Official in terms of his authoritarian tendencies. His brazen corruption is total disregard for human rights. His racism right. I think that makes him like a singular danger in in our politics right now. That said i mean. It's not like tom. Cotton being charges a good thing it would just be bad for poll. Bunch of different reasons right Throw more people in jail. Invading more countries like calling for us to attack iran every day. there's a whole different set of disasters. Yeah okay so it's a show about biden's first hundred days there's at least a few days left before the end of that What would you like to see him do that. You would put him on the most promising course Leaving the world in as good shape as possible whenever his torments. I think getting back in the. Jcp away the iran. Nuclear deal is a big one. I think that there's a conversation that started about the forever. Wars twenty years into afghanistan war How the The us conduct counterterrorism missions Wear that's allowed. What congress's role is in providing authority for those strikes. I think that's a big challenging but important conversation that that's one of the most important things biden is gonna do and that sort of encompasses some of the areas where progressives are frustrated like The fact that we're not gonna meet the may one deadline to get all. Us troops out of afghanistan. Like this serious strike that we saw a few months back That that raised a lot of eyebrows right. So that's that's a key critical thing that you just don't think they've had time to take on so maybe just a little bit. Beyond the hundred days or isan once you get the overwhelming majority of americans vaccinated. We have surplus supply here that. By as many good reasons to want to be at the forefront like leading the global vaccination effort. Yeah it's absolutely in our interest to get the whole world dachshund. Did i mean i. I read a story. The other day that said kenya was aiming to have thirty percent of its population vaccinated by mid twenty twenty three which is just so far outside of the time ranges that horrified me and kenya is like a big bustling economy right. I mean they should be able to buy these doses. So i think the us has to take a a major role in making sure that all these can get access to vaccines. I really think we can sell that argument to the american people who might not otherwise you know cara or support foreign assistance right. You just have to tell them. Hey this virus is going to change a comeback. If we don't get everybody protected And i think you know the way you do. That could involve the us purchasing distributing lots of doses and giving them to people it could involve lifting intellectual property rights on vaccine manufacturing or treatments or testing and allowing other countries that have the capability to manufacture them themselves and the good news is by just named woman named gil. Smith used to run. Usa id to lead lead this effort. She's dog it she's great. I worked with her Chill chill approach job well. But it's gonna it's gonna require americans getting past like traditional opposition to quote unquote foreign aid We have to be willing to help our neighbors. Yeah i take things from that one. Is that like you know the. We've been so hungry for optimism in the news as the the the us vaccination program being Like finally firing on all cylinders and being like the model for the world is good and it feels good but we should realize that the flip side of that coin is that that's because we have the supply and others don't and that was like a highly contingent thing that you know has questionable moral aspects to it and then separately. I think the implication is also if we don't someone's going to sell or give vaccine doses to other countries right and that can either be the united states or it can be one of the other countries that developed their own vaccine and you know between a soft power situation where the us is giving tons of vaccine away versus china and russia. It seems like a no brainer to me. Yeah i mean. Look and i first and foremost i am thrilled. That the russians developed a vaccine. I'd like to see india. China every single country developed A vaccine domestically. But you're absolutely right like the russians. The chinese they're this diplomatic opportunity to get vaccines to other countries. We need to be doing the same us. Look at a country like brazil. Brazil is headed day. Were four thousand. People died from cova. Four thousand people. I mean it is a catastrophe. The healthcare system is about to collapse. End the president of brazil. Gyro bolsonaro is a guy who openly pines for the day of brazil being a military dictatorship. He just like fired a bunch of his senior generals. He fired his defense minister. Like you you could see You know a health disaster from covid becoming a pretext to locked country down going into a state of emergency right like. There's a lot of horrible horrible outcomes. they could destabilize the entire region the entire world. Not you know. And i don't mean to like skip past the human suffering in brazil right now. I mean that's like the thing that we should be thinking about the most but there are geopolitical implications. Brazil has porous borders with its neighbours so infected people are going back and forth and i. It's hurting countries in the region. So just like we gotta get a handle on a handle on this problem then. I think it has to be a focus. That's paired with a really Deliberate in loud. Messaging push to make sure that it's not something. That's that's demagogue by fox news. Like i guess. I i'm not entirely sure how sean hannity would Would demagogue this is like you know. All these guys are flirting with being anti vaccine. Anyway and you know if you're an anti vaccine a united that us giving your way you're vaccine. I don't know anymore places care. Yeah that whatever. Yeah there's going to attack no matter what you know like when when when obama came into office you know. We spent the first several years. Clean up. shit. That bush did I do think that the. Us is utter. Failure uncovered. requires a little clean up in. And we'll we'll see our we'll have to do a better job of trying to help everybody else skipping gareth yet. It's a good one to put pen. And i think i think the good news is that like biden picked a release strong chief of staff for seeing that big picture. Yeah i mean look it's it is. It is quite lucky for the entire country for the world. For joe biden. Ron clean was the guy who led the ebola efforts in two thousand fourteen. I mean like he someone who really gets the the nuts and bolts of pandemic response. I can't overstate. How great it is that someone would that kind of brain. In that experience the oval office like several times a day. All right. well let's leave their tummy beater. Thanks for coming on rubicon. Thanks for having me man. I'm i'm a fan of my listeners. Subscribe spanish unsubscribe. Until your friends. Give them a five star review. Please keep sending your questions. Our email address is rubicon. Crooked dot com listener brad rights assuming it becomes federal law. What parts of hr one would be most vulnerable to a potential sco. Despite the loss still be active in elections to take place during the legal battle. These are such important questions and part of the reason. They're so good is because they're so hard to answer. We know the roberts court conservatives have been profoundly hostile to voting rights but they haven't been particularly principled or consistent in their actions which makes it very hard to say which provisions of hr one. They'd be most likely to invalidate. Or why if i had to guess i'd say i worry. Most about hr ones independent redistricting 'provision campaign finance disclosure forms and its provision to reinforce ranch people with felony records. The roberts court has been a handmade republicans on similar issues in recent cases. And it's not hard at all to imagine five conservatives concocting arguments the congress doesn't have the power to dictate to states how they draw their congressional lines or how they determine who qualifies to vote or that any regulation of political donations violates the first amendment as to whether these provisions would remain in effect through the judicial process. It's impossible to say for sure but we know if conservatives have their way friendly courts will join the law preventing the government from enforcing it in the hope that the supreme court either throws it out before the election or runs out the clock so that it can't be implemented until it's too late that's why in my view. The biggest missing piece of the democrats democracy reform agenda is court reform. The judiciary is inherently undemocratic. And this judiciary. The one stacked with partisan republican loyalists despite decades of democratic. Popular victories has been selected precisely to block the popular will. Hr one isn't exempt from that and without embracing court reform. Democrats are setting themselves up to learn this lesson in a particularly painful way. Rubicon is written and hosted by me brian. Boiler it's produced by andrew gardner bernstein. Veronica simonetti is our audio engineer. Production support from brian symbol. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week. I played half court basketball. That's another thing that's changed half court basketball. You could not pass the centerline. The half court lives. You had three people on each side line. You had either defenders or scorers and you could not cross the line and you could only dribble three times and we were told it was because women's hearts couldn't take it. I mean you can't make this stuff up my friends. hi there. Rear hysteria hosts aaron ryan. Annalisa astra monico and you just heard our recent interview with secretary. Hillary clinton. 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Fredrik Logevall discusses the pre-presidential years of JFK in his book; "JFK: Coming of Age in the American Century, 1917-1956."

Coffee and Books

57:00 min | 1 year ago

Fredrik Logevall discusses the pre-presidential years of JFK in his book; "JFK: Coming of Age in the American Century, 1917-1956."

"The following podcast is an embassy row production. Hey everybody I'm Marc Lamont Hill. bobbies, coffee and books. I'm a professor, a scholar and most importantly Buchner. Buchner because I don't just love to read books, I'm the person that loves to read about the Book I love hearing all this talk about how would why they wrote the book and I love talking to other book nerds about their favorite books. That's why I started coughing blood to podcast all about books every episode I sit down for a cup of coffee with the world's biggest authors to discuss the most interesting controversial fund and important books, and sometimes we just hang out with experts, fans, and other special guests talk about some. Of the greatest books of all time and today I am incredibly honored to be joined by a wonderful writer a brilliant historian. He's the author of a wonderful new book. It's called JFK humming of age in the American Century nineteen seventeen to nineteen, fifty, six Frederick logo of all. Thank you for joining us. It's a pleasure to be with you not plus it's my I guess I should mention you teach at a an institution somewhere in Massachusetts it's What is the name Harvard is is that is that what it is? Indeed I have a joint appointment at Harvard I'm in the Kennedy School of Government. And by the way, I should say since I'm a little defensive about this, I signed the contract to write this biography of JFK before I came to the Kennedy School. So I don't want people to know that there's any. Sort of connection there, right. Right. I'm also a joint appointment in the Department of history. It's quite nice. It's quite nice. So I can't wait to talk about this exciting book. But before we do I, love to talk coffee I, and as I was reading this wonderful book, all eight hundred pages of it I decided to have a cup of a all black lock hello coffee I do just a nice medium or dark roast very simple keeps me energized how about your writer you go in the archives Do you drink coffee I live on the stuff? I'm originally from Sweden. and. As you may know is it is a coffee culture over there and we always have it black and so that's what I do. It's always strong and I suppose if you said, well, give me one that you like I. Think a Nice French. Roast is pretty tough to beat I had some this morning I'll have some after you and I finish it's just critical isn't it? Oh, it's absolutely critical one thing I have to say though while I was drinking coffee reading I didn't need the coffee to sustain my interest in the book it was incredibly interesting. So you've written a book on somebody who people think they know in your estimation after all of this research after all of this writing. Is. John. F. Kennedy I. Think He is a hugely consequential figure in twentieth century, American history and indeed in world history. I think he's an important figure. He's of course somebody who became an iconic figure by the way not only in the United States but elsewhere, I'm from Sweden and my little corner of Scandinavia John F. Kennedy he was a very important figure two Swedes and when he was assassinated, Swedes of certain age can tell you where they were when they found out. That he'd been killed. So he was this figure quite unlike anything we've seen and therefore I think we need to understand them and I think he was a serious student of public affairs from an early point I. Think he was a flawed individual no question makes them in my view more interesting. He was flawed as a person he was he made mistakes in policy terms that we need to reckon with this person, and that's what I'm trying to do in this and this. Book I gotTa Say I walked into the book with some assumptions I said to myself. What could I possibly learn about JFK? We know everything there is to know about JFK you know we have an idea of who is a figure we know who he is as a kind of American icon. We have a sense of the lore surrounding him, and then I, went through and I look for other biographies of JFK and I realized that aren't nearly as many as I thought. that. There's actually a fairly limited number of amount of writing on JFK I saw really fascinating biography of on his father Joe I saw some other things but not what I expected is that what brought you to the book to the project? Well, there are surprisingly few what we might call full-scale biographies and not one I would say that really takes advantage use archival materials that are available at the Kennedy Library, which by the way are superb and puts this extraordinary American life. Into this historical context, which is what I also tried to do in this in this book. I read your earlier work particularly on Vietnam. There's a very different project going on here. There's something very different about being a historian and being a biographer in some historians of wonderful jobs David levering Lewis. Did an amazing job with WBZ Boys I've seen it done well, and I've seen it not done as well. What does it mean for you to take off the historian had at least a little bit and put put on the biography had or or are they? Different heads. Now, I think they are different hats and I think you put it well I. I. Don't think it's the same kind of writing I think I probably since this is my first biography I, probably missed at least to a degree the differences between them that said, I'm approaching this project as a historian and I thought when I began again talking about this with my editor and we were chewing over different book ideas I thought I can bring my historian training. My historians approach to bear on this biography. Nevertheless I think you're quite right to say that now I'm writing about a life. It's a contextualized life, but nevertheless, it's a life. And I have to think about the reader if JFK disappears from the narrative for five or six pages is that okay we'll a reader become impatient if young Jack Kennedy is not there every two or three or four pages that I had to think about that's not the sort of thing that a historic this sort of thing that historian ever has to think about so. There's a I hope by managed it but there is. There's a challenge in integrating the biographical dimensions here with would historical. One of the things that the book does quite nicely I think is that it parallels JFK's life particularly this part of his life the early parts of his life with the rise of American Empire with the birth of the American. Century in essentially as K is coming of age America's coming of age as the henchman why that parallel the lots of there are lots of ways you can drawing this narrative out why that one well I was I was walking in Harvard Yard one day this early on so a few years ago. And I thought you know maybe the way to do this is to tell basically twin narratives to how should I put the map onto Kennedy's life the rise of Kennedy. Map onto that the rise of America, you say to to great power status to superpower status because it occurred to me again, of course that he was born in nineteen seventeen just as the United States is entering world. War One. Hugely, consequential moment. And he dies. By an assassin's bullet in nineteen, sixty three, which in some ways is kind of the Pinnacle of American power. So I thought. Maybe. There's a way here to use this dual narrative approach and in a sense, understand both stories better. Not only do we get a better sense of Kennedy but in fact, through the lens of JFK's life. We can understand better how it is that the United States became this incredible global power during the course of his life. I think you can hope you can put the two of them together in that way and you do that you put them together. Let's start with the Kennedy part because again many people feel like they already know him their biographies we open up and we want I remember reading a Robin Kelly's wonderful biography of thelonious monk and thinking okay now I know much more about the loan smoking when I started because I didn't know within the expectation I knew that on monk was but from. Popular Culture from movies from all the kind of books and biographies in analysis of particular moments connected to JFK I feel like I. Know Americans feel like they know did you feel compulsion to say I gotta I gotta dig up some stuff here that Americans don't know. Yeah I would be lying to you. I guess if I said Oh I felt nothing like that I probably did feel a need to do that but I also said to myself and to my wife and others you know it's less important for me here to have new stuff new revelations than to tell this story while and I felt. Mark that. The early Kennedy. Hadn't really been told there's a there's a quite marvelous book by Nigel Hamilton, which was which was going to be a three volume biography but Hamilton decided to stop after the first volume and he that was a really useful book. But nevertheless, it wasn't quite where I was going and you know I suggest in the preface to the book that all of us. Human beings or let's say almost all of us are really shaped by our teens and our twenties it isn't to say that we're a completed individual by the time we had thirty or in our early thirties but we're substantially shaped by those earlier years. If that's true then I think we need to pay a lot of attention to Kennedy. At that point, he serves in World War Two is father is ambassador to Britain, which is important part of the story for me. and. I didn't feel that that totally fascinating story in my do had really been fully told and I could tell it here. Wow will you definitely begin to tell it again just so people know this is the first of two volumes and again you begin nine in nineteen seventeen, you take us to nineteen, fifty, six, four years before he would assume the presidency but you begin with a a kind of understanding of Kennedy as someone who had a very particular set of political preoccupations and a very. Particular vision of what the United States is role should be in the world which I thought was interesting. Particularly given his father's politics. Maybe we should start there who was John F. Kennedy in relation to his parents father in particular in his politics and how how did that play into who he became? Yeah. He's very much. It's a great question. He's very much his father's. His mother is also important in his upbringing she. She doesn't Rose Kennedy often doesn't get the. Attention that I think she should get as the matriarch. Nine children let us remember, but there's no question that Joe Kennedy. The father is the principal figure in young jet Kennedy's life, and what's fascinating to me is the kind of diverge instead occurs on in or about nineteen thirty, nine, Forty Jack is a is an undergraduate at Harvard. His father is ambassador to Britain. He is an arch appeaser. He supports Neville Chamberlain's efforts to prevent the war after the war begins he is adamant that the United States should stay out of the war. This is none of our business, etc.. and. Little by Little Jack Separates himself from his father. He begins to see that intervention is probably imperative for the United. States. Certainly helping the allies imperative. And one of the things that I think is interesting which I talked about in the book is that Joe Junior who the older brother? And is the golden child in this family. Joe Junior is never willing to separate himself from his father. He parents his father's position right to the end. He's killed in the war in nineteen, forty four, and then Jack becomes the the apparent. But Jack Shows I think I think compelling evidence for this shows this willingness to take a very different position on the great issue of the day, which is, should the United States intervene in the war? What should the American posture in the world? And I think he holds that view fundamentally through the end of his life in Dallas. In November nineteen sixty three that is to say that the United States needs to have a leadership position in the world it needs to work with allies, but nevertheless, it needs to be that leader and his father never accepts that position that's a difference between them but never goes away you hit on something. That I think many people don't understand about John F. Kennedy that I don't want to cycle analyze them. But I would imagine that it shapes how he navigates the world and how he navigates basements political life and that is that he in some ways he was like the replacement child in the sense that again junior was the one who was beloved even in the book I was struck by. There's a moment where they IQ tests and in Jackson is higher and yet the mob doesn't believe it. No no he has to be the smart one. He has to be the talented one that there was an expedition he was being groomed for the for the greatness that the Kennedy family could produce. Not John F. Kennedy was I think again when we look at him through the Lens Of Sixty three, right before he dies, he's the striking handsome smart articulate political leader in a generational figures like how could you not see that coming? Right? It's accusing Tito. Jackson over Michael Jackson you know it's like how could this possibly happen and yet it does what is it just because he was he was the namesake how did Jack Kennedy not get the love that and brother did. Such a good question and I think you know I to like you I I want to resist too much psychoanalyzing I'm not trained in that for one thing I think there are a few things. He is the firstborn he is the namesake of his father. He is Hollywood handsome I mean he is straight from central casting Joe Junior. If you've seen photographs, he's very ambitious. He's aggressive to a fault I would say that there's nothing that's going to stand in his way and his parents have built him up all those years he was kind of surrogate father when Joe Senior was away which he was a lot. Joe Junior stepped in, and so maybe on some level, it's quite natural that the parents would have this. Nevertheless as you also say. It's pretty clear if you look at their prep school papers if you look at their undergraduate papers, if you look at the letters that they wrote that there's an imaginative intelligence that Jack has the Joe Junior. Does not have and other people by the way who interacted with both brothers thought from pretty early point. So nineteen, forty, forty, one, forty, two during the war. No. Jack. Is the one who has something special and the parents either didn't WanNa see it. Maybe some part of them did see it and they just didn't want to admit it but they never shook that idea that Joe. Junior he's the one destined for greatness. And that idea of sort of resisting the idea that Jack was special to me in many ways the twin narrative with this idea that he was a late bloomer that he's somehow came into his greatness, the possibilities of his greatness much later than we imagine that there were no signs of precociousness or talent prior to sort of maybe the late stages of Harvard seems to be an idea that we have which almost understates how extraordinary he was throughout his life. Yeah I think. So I think what I suggested it's a kind of theme in the book he was actually not really a late bloomer. I don't deny for a moment that he loved to have a good time that he was especially interested in in girls. There was that side of his life which we can discuss but I'm struck by the fact that to some extent in prep school even at showed but certainly at Harvard, he's already deeply interested in for example, democracy can democracy survive in the current environment of the late nineteen thirties and he asks questions by the way as an undergraduate that. Seem I think resonant today about democracy and the challenges of democracy he says and I'm paraphrasing here. But in one of his papers and less democracy can produce able leaders. Its future is is in peril. So he's interested in this from an early point he publishes his senior thesis as a book not many undergraduates do that at age twenty three it becomes kind of NFL minor bestseller and we could say that Joe Kennedy senior help in terms of the sales. But really this is a book that stood on its own and so. Yeah I think there is a seriousness to this guy from an early point he treated as I put serious things seriously and We should make note of that. No absolutely talk to me about John F. Kennedy and Harvard his days Harvard in some ways was sharply contrasted to his father's Day's at Harvard where the the gentlemen see I think you mentioned was entirely reasonable and acceptable. You talk about the different Harvard's that were there than there were. You know there are different communities different ways you could be at Harvard from working class to the athlete to the socialite to the politically connected, etc.. Joe Kennedy goes to Harvard largely through Miracle Divine Intervention. It almost looked like baseless schooling records. John Kennedy enters as the son of a powerbroker or powerful family at least in a very different kind of set of possibilities in opportunities in front of who is he at Harvard? He is somebody who still faces at least to a degree. The kind of prejudice that his father faced to a lesser degree that is to say Irish. Catholic. GonNa be acceptable to the top final clubs, final clubs at Harvard War and are elite sort of universities within the university or entities within the university, and so Jack faced some of the same kinds of discrimination that his father phase. But it was a different time as I think you're suggesting and he was able by the time you get into the late nineteen thirties to make his way in a way that I think his older brother even couldn't just two years before Party of Personality Jack was just more charming. Had A better social antenna social intelligence than his brother but certainly as compared to his father and so by the time he becomes I would say a junior and certainly his senior year after he has this extraordinary excursion through Europe, right before the war, he's a serious student more serious than he had been maybe in the first two years. Kind of obsessively interested in the senior thesis that he's GonNa write is actually made a member of a final. Club. So, you can see there how things have changed that would not have happened in Joe Seniors Day that an Irish Catholic would would be tapped but still some of those prejudices, some of those closed doors and I, think it breeds in in JFK a certain detachment that we see that's characteristic of him. Later on where he he wants to observe rather than always be a full participant, he russell observed rather be a full participant and yet post college. He embarks. An incredibly quick liberalized he wants to get into the fray. He wants to get into the mix of civic life. He wants to be part of this democracy in an invasive -nificant fashion does he always want to be a politician? What's his vision for this? While you know there's a there's a suggestion in some books that it's only after Joe Junior is killed in nineteen, forty four. Kind of mindless ridiculous operation over the coast. Of suicide really he's killed and some people say, Oh, it's asking that the Joe Senior Says Jack it's your turn you're GonNa do this now. I think I showed that in fact he's using. Is Thinking about politics already at least as early as nineteen forty two. So this is a couple years after leaving Harvard graduating. It's the year before before he serves in combat in the South Pacific already then he's telling a girlfriend of his Inga Arvada, a dangerous girlfriend. They're talking about him running for office and so I think he's interested in this from an early point has grandfather. We haven't mentioned honey Fitz Fitzgerald on his is. Notable sort of legendary Boston politician I think he was partly inspired by his example. So I think it develops over time I. Think he flirts with the idea of journalism a flirts with the idea of academia. There are other career options for him and it's interesting to speculate supposed Joe Junior had not been killed. Had returned from war alive would the JFK that we know Jack Kennedy and nevertheless ultimately have become a politician we can't know the answer to that but I would say he had his own reasons for running. It wasn't just his father's pushing absolutely I. Love It. I get historians to engage these kinds of historic counterfactual it's. It takes them out of their comfort zone and you know what? Let me just let me just tell you right there that I do a lot with counterfactual said my classes here and I have some colleagues and I love them. But some colleagues who say, what's the point? We have enough difficulty Fred explaining what did happen in history? Why should we waste our time on what might have happened what I say to them and what I say to the students Oh contraire we can learn a lot by thinking about. Alternative by thinking about the avenues that could have been taken it adds to our understanding. Absolutely I live on the those things. So he goes into politics. We know for certain that he has a passion for certainly he has a gift for it. We'll never know what would have happened. He had his brother survivor. What we do know is that he had his own vision for what his political life would look like he he's elected to the House of Representatives one, nine, forty six, is that right? Correct in has a successful three terms before going to the US. Senate. Those campaigns were not examples of daddy pays the bills index traffic and just gets me to the end zone right? I. Mean this is a case of someone who had their own political vision in their. Own. Idea of how to get there I think that's another thing that people don't appreciate about JFK because again I didn't I saw him as almost like if Donald trump junior would to run neck in two years. I. Would imagine what that would look like if you know the children dynasties who kind of walk in God forbid if politician passes away in their spouse kind of slide into the seat I, I sort of see it as a kind of pro forma thing. This was a real campaign, a real vision enter in a real set of strategies that diverged from those of his father. No Yeah. No, that's exactly right and there are people respected. Who will say? Oh, daddy bought him his house seat or you know it's all about daddy's money. I won't deny that you know he was better funded than his opponents when he ran for the Democratic nomination in nineteen, forty six by the way the nomination battle was all that mattered once you win the Democratic nomination, it's all over. So was that one that mattered. But what we see there he's this skinny emaciated. Twenty nine year old running for the House and what you see is his work. You see that he's willing to go all day and into the night, and this is not as dad he's having to do this. We have these buildings all over Boston the triple deckers he is scaling these triple deckers. You know night after night talking to voters. So you see that willingness to work hard. You see that he our tickets as I think you were suggesting. A Vision. Quite different from his father's, which is a kind of Compati- idealistic vision of what he thinks America or at least in this case, the eleventh district in Massachusetts should be about and what he should be about and it proves, I think over time and when he runs for the Senate, he hones it further a winning message, which is about public service. It's about democracy. It is about the obligations that we have to those who are less fortunate. I wouldn't say he's particularly liberal. He's kind of a centrist Democrat, but it's a powerful vision that this young JFK articulates and that he then carries with them really to the end of his life. WHO IS JFK in terms of his his humor relationships obviously people to tawdry stuff which is sort of the easy place to go. But I'm actually more interested although I have a little interesting in tawdry stuff. I'm more interested in sort of who he is as a connector who he is as part of a community who was he as a friend often times when you read these biographies You, if you come to the people were cutthroat disloyal, they loved humanity. But hated humans that kind of thing he was different in a few of those ways. Can you talk a little about who JFK was at the interpersonal level I? Think there was a certain emotional reserve. He got this at least in part from his mother. He was not a back slapper he was not in some ways all. Sociable. Maybe that's the wrong word but that's the one all us. There was a certain reserve. He was actually quite shy in some ways and you wonder there for how he became successful politician. But that was that was kind of hard early on because he had this shyness. What he showed however was deep loyalty. To his male friends I wish I could say the same about the female friends but I don't think he showed that as much to his male friends from college for the Navy. He was very loyal and they were loyal to him. There's lots of examples of this. I show in the book of that loyalty and is getting ahead of ourselves, but I think ultimately and the some of this will be in volume to. Even the problems in the marriage Jackie some extent I think they were able to at least work through some of those, and that is in part because he came to recognize what he had in her and how important she was to him. It wasn't as evident early but that's a little snapshot I. Hope of the Personality if you will. No I think that's that's important. You went exactly where we're Kinda hoped you'd go, which is partly those gender distinctions in how he navigated. The world again, the private life of JFK is probably the thing we know most about what makes that stand out I think is the time period of we. We know lots of Bill Clinton lots about Donald Trump I. don't know if there's more to know about Obama or whoever comes after, but there's something about in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, and soon after having this much information on him, that sort of positions him as an outlier in terms of everything from philandering to. All the kind of stuff that happens to not politician to be successful can talk a little bit about that I. Mean He gets position is exceptional in that way in he may not be yeah. I've thought a lot about this and. I realized that I can't have it both ways if I'm gonNA say on the one hand which I do. That he was his own man. He was his own master when it came to politics and to career choices and to world. Philosophy what he wanted to do in terms of his life. He was not under his father's control. If I'M GONNA make that argument on those issues, I can't very well say, well. He just learned from his father and his father. You know his father was a philanderer. He sometimes brought Mr home to the dinner table. If you can imagine a and of course, both Joe Junior Jack learned from the father and by the way he also made very clear joe senior. I expect the two of you to carry on the way that I do. Basically, you're seeing women as objects to be conquered, but I can't very well say well. That's explanation or it's the mad men age whatever because lots of men were not that way and if he can break free from his father on other issues, he should be able to fee on this. So I think this is a problem I will say that I don't think that the womanizing which is which begins early and is chronic and he cheats on Jackie. He cheats on her before the wedding and she took her after I don't think it's I don't think it's predatory in a certain way and in in in volume two when he's in a position of real power as president of the United States. I think that shifts but this is an unsavory part of his persona from an early point It's pretty clear though he finds women interesting He finds it interesting that the way they the way they think the way they reason Ingar who was in some ways the great love of his life he loved her in part because she was so intelligent she was so knowledgeable about the world she spoke many languages. It's also impart attracted him to Jackie. So it's a complicated view of women. He's certainly objectified women in a way that I think is is deeply regrettable. Who is Jackie Kennedy to him I think Jackie was somebody who he admired respected. He could not get over the fact he was terrible with foreign languages and the fact that Jackie had fluid French and she had excellent Spanish and also German was something that he thought was just incredible. He sensed that she had more style than he had. He became worthless rice. And she she by the way had very important. He became a natty dresser and he became to have an interesting clothing and furniture at in all kinds of things because of her I think they shared a similar sense of humor both were really humorous. You know Conan O'Brien in the marvelous essay. Over Ryan says that we've had to funny presidents in our history Abraham Lincoln and John. F. Kennedy truly funny. Presidents and I think he's right about that. We haven't talked about his self deprecating sense of humor he had it and I think he was attracted to Jackie. 'cause she had the same kind of sense of humor. There's an absurdist quality to the humor that I think they shared all of that said, he did not treated very well in the early years of their marriage and I think she suffered a lot some of that comes out in my first volume. Some about will come out obviously in the in the next one but I think he always respect to her and her intelligence. Great. The American Century. This idea that America. Would seize control of mobile power that military the level of economy the level of culture even that the United States would emerge as A. Superpower. Maybe ultimately, the power various moments the singular power. Is, one again, as we talked about earlier, the kind of parallels rise of JFK a wise important for us to chart that I. It seems that it's not just an interesting chronological coincidence but there might be some interesting developments that are emerging on both sides to make this a story worth telling talk talking about why was the storytelling I think? It's it's the case that understanding how it is that the United States came to occupy this singular position. By many measures, the greatest power in the world and in military terms in economic terms basically smack DAB, in the middle of the century that's an important historical story, and of course, historians have been and other scholars have been engaged in telling that story I don't mean to say that. I'm the first. But what I think is interesting. I hope I. pull this off readers will have to tell me is I think one can better understand that rise. How it is the US came to occupy this position greater. I think by many measures by the way much quicker than even the Soviet position. We in some ways, we have really one superpower in one, thousand, nine, hundred, forty, five not too. But we better understand it by looking at the Kennedys by exploring for example, this schism between father and son that we discussed earlier because there's this debate as you know before Pearl Harbor between isolationists so-called isolationist and interventionist if we if we look at that through the Lens of the Kennedys I, think we understand it better I. Think World War Two And JFK service in the Pacific helps us understand how United States becomes this colossus early Cold War where he's a cold warrior at his father is not McCarthyism we haven't talked about that family is close to McCarthy. And so what we sometimes called the second red scare. This kind of domestic ferocious anti-communism I think we understand that better through the lens of JFK and and by the way particular thing there. JFK who savvy, he's a shrewd politician from an early point. I think he understands and I write about this that the smart political position in the United States, if you're running for office or if you're running for re election is to be to the right of your opponents that is to say to be hawkish on the cold. War is smart position to take he takes it. So those are some examples of where I think. Telling. These two stories together. Helps, US better understand both helps better understand Kennedy, but also America that's incredibly powerful talk about your process little bit with regard to this book there's no shortage of archives and records in in recently we've seen the declassification of more stuff with regard to canton in particular. What's the journey liked to go from book idea with the editor to producing this book with regard to getting his? Archives getting records figure how to piece together these stories. These letters is incredible lenders. How do you get all this stuff? It's a really great question and I love talking about process and we historians and biographers we probably all hub certain similarities than than we do certain things differently for me. It was about spending a lot of time at the Kennedy Library, which is just down the street. I can get on the red line in Harvard, square and at the other end, take a shuttle bus and there I am at this marvelous facility. So it's about immersion in these sources which you say are great little by little a picture begins to emerge and I can then outline I can do kind of rough table of contents I can begin to outline individual chapters folded into all of this, and this is where historians and biographers will sometimes. Themselves, is the secondary sources, the existing books and articles. I'm one of those as I get older as deeper into my career I tend to. I tend to jumble it all together. So I'm reading books I I'm seeing what you know Bob Dalek said in his biography and I see what David Nassau you mentioned the biography of Joe Kennedy senior I look at what they're doing even as I go in the past that was basically trained in graduate school to to do the archival work I. Do some writing, and then maybe look at the secondary sources. Final piece, which I think is really important to two quick things. One is the Kennedy. Library has a marvelous oral history project, and so I made heavy use of these interviews that were done. Many of them right after the assassination. So you have to use them carefully because of course people are. Distraught at that moment in time. But nevertheless, there really valuable and then newspapers mark newspapers I tell my students are underutilized. Source by historians. So to go back and see what both major papers say, The New York Times and more regional papers or overseas papers, what they had to say about the issues. That I. Fold in as well and little by little a book emerges to begin to draft chapters and then eventually you have a book. One of the things that comes up your works quite nationally is the use of letters and whenever he many interesting biographies, I was reading a biography of a written by Imani Perry on rain hands. Berry and they're these fessing alleged between Baldwin in her I. Think About I just read any logs new book beginning again on Baldwin and he's writing fabulous letters to all sorts of interesting figures many miracles book you know on. Their writing letters, Malcolm's writing letters to from Mecca to who you know listen to certain parts of of this moment he was in Lillian is such and and I think about but the next century will look like for historians. Because we don't do that. Are we losing a vital source of insight or is there another kind of unit of analysis that will draw on that will allow us to write these kinds of books for the next generation of great figures it is such a good point I am acutely worried about this not so much for me but my graduate students and the graduate students that come after them or people who are don't go to graduate school but who are gonNA write history. I think you're so right about this we are losing probably have begun to lose already. A. Hugely Valuable Resource and it's not just think you make a very important point here. It's not just government documents that are a concern to me. A bigger concern is frankly what you discussed, which is letters. People, writing to one another. You know I've been I've been married a good long while now my wife and I in the attic have boxes of letters that we wrote to each other. That are they're not sure anybody will open the maybe our kids grandkids at some point will open but the point is we were writing letters. I relied heavily in this book on the letters that the Kennedy family in particular wrote to one another I wouldn't have been able to write the certainly not the same book without it. So this is a real problem I think even for me if I may one more thing. Even for me in volume two. I wonder if this is going to be a problem and what I mean by that is the young Jack Kennedy. Teenager. Guy In. His twenty s wrote all kinds of letters and they're wonderful. As he becomes more prominent. And then as he begins to run for president. We see fewer letters and maybe that's common among all politicians or many of them is that they begin to. You know maybe they'd take more care or they don't have time maybe there's no need. So I, think I have lots of sources more sources than I need frankly for volume two, but the letters specially from him. Or there won't be as many and that terrifies me you know I I'm going to have apologised, and so I think much more about sort of. I was thinking the age of Kobe what happens if we can't travel anymore, right? What's lost if all of my participant observation is to skype or zoom right? It's it could be a disciplinary crisis. I don't know if letter writing amounts to level of this crisis but if we lose kind of spaces of of engagement or you know suddenly twitter and text messages. Become the space that we now to kind of replace the letter I think we lose something really valuable in terms of intimacy in of the performance of dimensions of those technologies versus other things I just don't know what's at stake and honestly I'm not a historian or biographer genuinely scares me Oh. Yeah. No, you've just put it. So well, I would concur with Everything you've just said and you know. It's even possible that it's not just about let's say if we're talking about history for a moment. Unless. Limit to presidents for a moment, which is a small slice of history. But just for the for simplicity sake, it's not just about the let's say the Obama years and the trump years I'm hearing from colleagues who are investigating. The early part of the century. So you know they're they're looking at Bush or they're talking maybe even further back the Clinton years maybe even the Reagan years. That, you're not seeing the same kinds of source materials are certainly this is true. Let's say. If we go from two thousand forward and it scares me to and I worry about it and I think it's probably a progression regression meaning we see fewer and fewer materials for say Bush forty three. And then still less for Obama and even less now, this is a real problem I. Don't know what the I don't know what the solution is. Well the next time you come on with your new book, you'll also have the solution to. This. epistemological crisis. From. Talking about your actual writing process you derive every day. I, do when I'm working hard on the book, I tried to write every day now. As you know yourself this to some extent dependent on does one have a sabbatical for part of this is teaching a heavier load one semester that different semester is it a new class that requires more prep lots of things as you know, can enter into this but I think it's really important. For me maybe not for others to try to write every day especially big book like this and I try. I don't always succeed. In fact, maybe most of the time I don't but I think it's helpful to have a kind of benchmark. So I often say I want to get a thousand words down today on paper. I may revise them the some of them will end up in the been the in the trash bin so to speak but at least if I get words on the page, I say this to my students as well because they say professor I'm looking at this blank screen. And I've gotTA start writing and I say, just do it start writing and then you can revise but I have a good day if I'm feeling pretty satisfied with. Thousand Words eight hundred words whatever and one of the things that I've learned often I don't know if you do this but somebody said to me. in fact, I, think people have said this when you get to whatever that number is stop yes, and I think wait I'm just I'm on a roll why should I stop but there's actually something to what they say because if you stopped at say suburban hundred words or a thousand words whatever it is then you the next day if you're midstream, it's actually a good thing because you can keep going. So I'm trying to stop rather than keeping that's. Great, advice is a wonderful book out there for anyone listening by Paul Sylvia it's called how to write a lot. It's exactly what it sounds like. One of his arguments is you you said appointments you right over block of time and when you hit that moment whether it's the to our market or the thousand mark, whatever it is you stop and you wake up the next day with the same momentum energy to keep going in I have done everything. I can to follow that rule and I can't say I can't say that I do it well because when I had the energy I just keep going except I'm not convinced that I have this idea by the morning no matter how no matter how many notes I'd take. Let me ask you about the about deleting because you write large sections of texts which diverged from maybe the central theme but are central to understanding the book right. So so you`ll Tell us an entire humane, devote ten pages to giving us the back story of what's happening in. Ireland right and so I may learn about potato famines a more than I ever thought I would need to know, but it's for understanding the Kennedy family. Do you ever find yourself writing stuff when you say you know what I probably don't need this, but it's already on the page and I can't delete and I give you a quick example. I I wrote. When I wrote nobody Oprah's Book I wrote in Twenty Sixteen about what was going on in Ferguson. There was a moment in the first chapter where I spent and I'm not a historian. So I I spent my weeks studying about the world's fair and learning about sort of architecture housing to figure out how Saint Louis became Saint Louis, and before I knew what I had written, maybe twenty five pages on the world's fair housing in Saint Louis and my editor was do not need more than four pages of this but it became a two week battle because I wrote this and I really did a lot of work to find his like. There's no other place that I'll ever need this. There's nothing I can save this for my next book, which won't be on this at all and so I found struggling not to go too in the weeds but once I right I find it very difficult to delete not not a very good judge of that. As I mean, you're right you're right in to eight hundred biographies mid. So point you have to say hang enough right delete backspace don't go How'd you manage that? Yeah, it's hard I. Think I think cutting cutting one's own pros. is just like pulling teeth at least I. Find One I've written something. Let's say it's three or four paragraphs having to do with. JFK's naval training before he went off to war. and. My editor says, you know what? I. Don't think we need this or maybe I myself will begin to wonder is this do we really need this because that is an important thing that that authors should always ask themselves almost every paragraph how does this relate to my broader purposes and if I don't have a good answer to it, it may not belong but even when I asked myself that question. So I have some doubt it's just hard to cut I. Think I've gotten a little bit better as as my career has advanced at both avoiding the problem by knowing up front. I don't actually need twelve pages on the world's fair or you know twelve or for the four pages on this part of the naval training. So I, I, think this is less of a problem for me now than it used to be. And I'm more conscious of the need to. Sometimes slow the. Narrative down. Sometimes speed it up I. think that's important. Part of writing is to get the pacing, right? But nevertheless even now in this happened with this boy JFK it was not a hugely longer book. But it's about six hundred fifty pages of texts in the finished product about eight hundred total as you said but. Six fifty texts. Probably another fifty pages there. But at some point ended up on the cutting room floor. There's no easy way to do. No easy way. To have a file, just have a word file somewhere with a with sixty pages of of random for any fear if I I'm not sure. I ever do this but I say to my students, save it in a file and then you can produce an article on it or you can do some other piece. You can come back to it. I don't know what that I ever do it but at least I say I do save the stuff that I could. With rare exceptions obviously if it's A few sentences and I'll just cut them. But if I have a little section, a discreet section on something, you never know I put it in a I, put it in a folder. Then maybe at some point, I'll come back to it. Well that's great advice for all the writers out there inspiring story keep a file, save stuff you don't delete or rather that you don't use but but it's better to have stuff on the cutting room floor into have a book with too much stuff in it because the book reviewers will remind you of why that was a bad out of here. I who who, who do you read? Obviously historian you try to read in your area and in your field in southfield but helping thinking about biographies are they biographers Bagger, Fay's you that you love try an for maybe obvious reasons. Lately, I've been trying to read to see what biographers of political leaders do how they approach this a Harvard historian who I never got a chance to meet because I arrived after he had retired is David Donald who wrote I think quite marvellous biography of Lincoln as that was one that I read not too long ago. Of course, one has to read Robert. Caro and even though Carro on LBJ is is a different kind of beast it's going to be. If you know when he finishes, it'll be five volumes and It's a longer life. But nevertheless, as you know from Kiro it in-depth nevertheless, we can all learn from from Bob Cara and so he's somebody I've been reading a late. Jean lacouture French journalist I guess as a two volume biography of de Gaulle that I thought was really helpful to me again in thinking about out to make choices as a biographer. Added to look at the public to Gaul, and then also make some room for the for the private to call the marital relationship and so forth. Those are three that come to mind that I've been thinking about and I will go back to but there's just so much as you know your your book Love Yourself. There's just so much out there to read on. It's marvelous. No. It's a good problem to have that they will never read everything that's on our list or that we that we'd love to read. You're going to write a biography of someone else in your in the future I'm predicting this who will it be after done these marvelous volumes on JFK figuring deserve this type of scrutiny just have analysis. You know I actually don't know I've begun to think about that a little bit I do think that your prediction may well be true and that is because I have found biography really pretty enjoyable and satisfying intellectually and I think this model that I'm following or this approach that I'm taking which is to conceptualize. To tell in a sense twin narratives put it is one that I've really enjoyed. It's been challenging but I like I like that but the subject mark, that's an interesting one. I. Do think I've thought long it's the same era. It's a little too close frankly. Along I've long been fascinated by Robert McNamara secretary of defense under Kennedy and then Johnson and have written a lot about McNamara as a secretary of Defense as one of the architects of the Vietnam War he's also a very emotional person. If you ever saw McNamara in action, you think the opposite that this is a a number cruncher. SORT OF BUREAUCRAT PAR EXCELLENCE There's very different McNamara underneath that veneer but a couple of other people are now working on McNamara I don't think I would be doing it in any case. That's example of somebody who was close to power. In fact, was at the top level of power and yet I think has been misunderstood among other things. He had these early doubts about the Vietnam War even while he's a champion of escalation under Johnson even while he's an architect of the this disastrous military adventure privately he's saying I. Don't think we can do this I don't think that. We can win and that's a really interesting sobering story to be able to tell. But it's for I. Think for somebody else someone who definitely tell that tell that story I worry sometimes that in the age of like sort of market logic that too often publishing houses will only take the story of the JFK's in Robert Kennedy's in and we don't sort of interesting nuance analyses of people. Who may not they may not be the sexy subject of, but they may be the ones who give us some insight into the moment that that particular moment I think it's so true. You know I did an event earlier this week with George Packer and he was the host. So we talked about JFK and the ask questions, but we also talked a little bit about his biography of. Richard Holbrooke right and holds a great example. It's a good example and you know Georgia's a very distinguished author and maybe somebody else would not have gotten a contract for what turned out to be. I. Think a really illuminating biography but nevertheless, I think you're quite right. We need those books as much or more as we need the books of our political or cultural leaders no question. Okay. So it's time to play a game that tortures guest, but Green's brings me great. Great Pleasure. It's called borrow it or burn I O named three books. One you can buy when you can borrow the other gets bird, and of course, this is all in the metaphorical sense. We wouldn't burn any books we love all books, but this is the game that that we have to. Okay. The first book is Lincoln reconsidered by David Herbert Donald. The second book is a nation under our feet. By Steven Hahn. And the third book is the Metaphysical Club but Lumina. So. We got three books I believe all Pulitzer Prize winners. You can buy one bar one in burn one. Oh. All right. So here's what I would do. I would buy. The haunt book. Because, it's long been on my list on my to read lists and has not been read there. I would borrow David Donald formerly of my department because it's a very important book that I've read about I've lost a little track of terms of Lincoln reconsidered and. What we can gain from it. So I WOULD WANNA, go back to it, but I'll borrow at rather than buy it. And Manas Book I would burn old Lee because. One. The three that I know the best that I have on my shelf in fact I dare say it's probably behind me as we speak. So if it's possible to praise the book to the sky because it's a marvelous sort of group biography, we could talk about it that you're GONNA burn. That would be the one I'd choose. Okay. That's it's a bit of a CD's essentially saying I have the book essentially memorized. So he'll walk the world like socrates doing. This is why your guests hate this particular game you realize. That was that was agony. Pure pure pure agony for the record I would have. Because, what I've found now is that the audience and my guests have asked me to make the same choices, which is a lot less fun by the way I'm totally like it when. It's no fun when the rabbit has the gun right but I will say I would have bought the metaphysical club for me it is there are few better writers. Out there to me than non and. The Metaphysical Club tells tells the story of such an important moment in. American. Intellectual History as we think about American pragmatism in how central it is not just to American philosophy is going to have the nerve reinhold this but it's a fabulous book that tells the story of every formative moment both at Harvard but also in our American intellectual history in the history of American philosophy what we what we could call the evasion of. epistemology centered philosophy admits it's a very fascinating book I would. I would borrow a nation under our feet in subtitled but for those that don't know his political black political struggles in the rural south from slavery to the Great Migration I i. Knew Stephen a graduate student at Penn. when that book came out, it was the first time I saw professor gates killer surprise as academic. So for me, it was like a window into the idea that you could write a book that people would actually read and it also was the first of I realized that historian seem to have the market quartered on those types of awards but what I look at people from Heather Thomson to Stephen Seeming to I mean hopefully you very soon this book there's a way to. You don't see anthropologist win these prizes nearly as often in probably for good reason, I think it has to do with our ability to write a clear inaccessible pros and then Lincoln reconsidered I would burn despite the fact that it is an extraordinary book. The reason I would choose that is because there are so many books Lincoln that I feel like if we lost a book Lincoln, even a marvelous wonderful field changing intervention like that I? Feel like we could sleep bill k. see the fact that you're a veteran of his game I can just tell is Makes it really unfair because what a great point to conclude with I'm not going to revise my list would be that would be really cheating, but I will say to you that last point if we have nothing like metaphysical club right or we have the obviously, it has spawned its own literature lots of other important books but it's marvelous. They all are but No I. Think you you busted me in this game. No Push. I never saw it as a competitive thing, but I will claim victory. And you can claim victory for writing really an important probably the most important book Brittany. JFK. Today thank you for hanging out with his. We can't wait for you to come back when the second volume comes out when will that be well hold me to this but I'm hopeful that perhaps in three years you'll have me back I will need some. Sabbatical time if Harvard is listening. To make this happen but but I would love to come back on whenever it is. How about that? That sounds like a plan and people in the meantime wants to find your social media at all I'm the rare creature who is not on social media, but I am easily findable ought at Harvard obviously on the on the website and the book by by Random House so that the book is easy to find sounds like a play it again. Thank you so much. This is such a pleasure. My pleasure to thanks so much. Thank you for listening the coffee mixing. You follow us on Instagram with the handle coffee and books show. Also, you can buy all the books that have been discussed here on bookshop dot org slash over Bobby's, or you can go to uncle bobbies dot com. That's. B. O.. E. S. DOT com.

JFK John F. Kennedy United States Joe Kennedy Joe Junior Jack Jackie Kennedy Kennedy family Kennedy Library Joe Junior Harvard America Harvard Kennedy School of Government editor Joe I writer F. Kennedy Massachusetts Rose Kennedy Boston
A Conversation with Radio Legend Jordan Rich! Part 2

Voices of Hope’s Cardinal Cafe

27:27 min | Last month

A Conversation with Radio Legend Jordan Rich! Part 2

"Welcome back to episode of our conversation with jordan rich. please enjoy. we're talking about jordan's book. My fifth year love affair with radio which you can get anywhere especially on amazon order. It's a great. It's a great read the love the party like why would anybody want to read my life. You talked about. Tom brady writing his by twenty five. I think he's i think he's done a few things since he was twenty five. We read it again. But it's a it's a great read talk a lot about some of the celebrities. You've interviewed ed. Our friend roy asked me to ask jordan. Who was your favorite interview. That's not hard. I've got a few but interestingly enough two of them were nonagenarian. in their ninety one was stanley of marvel. Comics light just adored and he was the most affable wonderful guy. The other one was the amazing. Carl reiner comedy. God and i spent hours on more than one occasion with those guys and really had a great time. I'll take a funny story. I listed about two hundred in the book. There are hundreds more former cousin of my white carson. My late wife. I saw him recently and he said hey. I thought it was really great. One day when you interviewed gucci gucci girl. Charro and i thought. Did i do that and son of a gun i did. I totally forgot. How do you forget something like that. I must've been hung over or something. Did all these people come through boston or did you were you on the road at all. I did a little bit of everything. Greg some would come into the studio. I remember the late. Great comic norm crosby. Would he came in once with a couple of other comedians. Comedians are always up. So they'll come in anytime you know letting clark goes guys arosa most of the stuff. I did a lot of. It was prerecorded. Because i couldn't get at two. Am somebody from civilized coast. But i would do pre records. And i i love producing and production so i do a lot and occasionally i would go one time i went to the kennedy library for sit down with caroline kennedy and there was no other way to do it except to go there. Another time I met one of my all time. Heroes roger moore from 007 land. Yeah that was another. You know certain people you just have to accommodate them which is ply with me so yeah mix it a mix of styles while stanley is gonna make grow very. Since he's a huge marvel fan. I was gonna say roy was more excited about. Ask him about william shatner. Oh i love shatner. And i'll tell you well not a funny story but an interesting story shatner is a machine. He's ninety years old. he's the hardest working manage. show business. never stops. I've interviewed him three times over the years. Once in person and the middle time was well twenty years ago and he probably been on a media blitz where he did fifteen or eighteen or thirty interviews and he's answering the same questions over any was really tired. it was on the phone. I could just tell it just went flat so over the years when i got a chance to meet him talk again. I was just hoping and praying that one of my heroes would come through and he did with flying colors. You know twenty years later in his eighties. A star trek is one of my passions as most people know so. I got to meet an interview. Most all of the original series cast powwow lost all of them and that was that was fun too bad they didn't have cell phones back there for the selfies. You know yeah. Did you have a pina collado with rupert holmes. That's what i wanted to you. Probably the other name. Very funny man and very prolific. He's actually broadly known as a broadway writer. Terrific those kind of people that you don't hear on radio one of my favorites was a guy that i never thought i would sit down with. Because of the crap he took because the music he may. Kenny g you know getting g. r. that's an alto sax or With jazzman and he turned out to be one of the finest guys in a very very self deprecating. And i said don't my said man you must take a lot of grief from people is called beautiful music and all that and he was great. I mean kenny. Rogers i goes on and on. I think it allows. I'm talking to you. Do the listed. The end of your book is just incredible. Dick van dyke. I listed them as characters to i said. You've interviewed freddy kruger. Mr conard moses. One of my favorite mode moseley was was a thrill end the expression the bigger they are the nicely. Our is pretty much true A very few uncomfortable experiences in my entire career but really so many of them attained one. This is interesting. It just dawned on you guys are bringing out all kinds of memory. You ever frank gordon who played the riddler ow on shore. He was a great impressionist to. Y'all yes brilliant impressionist and a this is another example of dwell not prejudging but but having an experience that didn't go well then having a much better one at the north shore music theater which is home to you guys right right back in. This goes back to my days at wr ko in the late. Seventies shows only ten years or so out of batman. He was doing a play or appearing. And i was just a kid. I was twenty one years old. Had a real to reel or small. Cassette-recorder went up there. And i said offers the gorshenin sits an honor to meet you a big fan and all. Tell me about when you did your first impression. And he looked at me and he said i'm an actor. I'm not an impressionist. It was the worst interview ever and that might tell the to flash forward thirty years thirty years four. He was playing a one man. Show george burns okay and he got a great a a lot of applause in accolades for that. Truly before he died and i interviewed him and he was terrific and he didn't have any problem because he was imitating somebody. He really wasn't he was earlier. So it it's interesting how people react and you have to give them some breathing room. I think at some point you might have had a bad. They did the best. Burt lancaster i think of anybody. And kirk douglas enrich little. I used to watch all the time. holiday carson. show yeah kirk. Douglas was was amazing. Yeah he he was. He got a rubber face which is really doing impressions. You know at one more celebrity question. Because i read a to. How old was mickey rooney. When he slid down the banister at the wang center mid seventies or so while show was called sugar babies. Do you remember that yup. Did he make that movie too and he was reprising sugar sugar. Babies was an old like nineteen thirty s or forty. He's an old vaudevillian kind of he. Kind of thing and it was really fun. And you know it was in the show was and miller the great mgm. Dancer and Harry the night court judge who was magician. How harry harry and are so. It was a really fun show. But mickey rooney was above the most insane. Human being i've ever met. I have one more celebrity Celebrity a comment question for you. You've interviewed and i was a huge science fiction buff when i was growing up. I couldn't read enough. Isaac asimov was was my favorite. But one of your interviews was raped bradberry. How old was he when you when you interview was. He was very old in his eighties and not well. I did meet as often school. I escorted him to the auditorium and he was really doing a talk. And of course half. The kids didn't really know or care. But i thought my god. This is the most prolific man on the planet but ray bradbury. I worked with his daughter in setting up the interview and because he was very hard of hearing extremely hard of hearing in all tie this with one more story about a celebrity. He was extremely fearing i said. Well how can i accommodate that. This was a telephone interview she said. Is there any way you could send the questions in advance. This is the only time i've ever done that. And i said of course so. I sent the questions in advance. He was on the phone. He read the question and then he would give the answer. I then subsequently put my questions in afterwards. I did that because of amazing respect for the giant this huge job the other guy Two more quick. Thanks arthur. c. Clarke wrote two thousand one. He was on the island in indonesia somewhere and we got him live on a sunday night and that was a thrill you know this is the guy basically made movies come alive in two thousand one but the other story. I think i read about him. I think is listed as kirk douglas. At one hundred and two years old and he had had a stroke twenty years earlier. Whatever or fifteen years. I got the only radio interview. Because the publicist knew me and thought i would be handling sensitively and so forth will. We had a terrific time. He wrote a book of love poetry. That was his last book. And i did a nature. I take the view and edited so that he was audible and understandable end sent. He sent me personal. Thank you note that. I still have from colonel. John kirk douglas station. How amidst a class act so. Those are some of the favorite moments. It's always good to hear that in nice to hear that the people like like you said the bigger are they're nicer. That truly happens because this day and age. All you hear is like you know this guy did this. And he's a terrible person and don't don't listen to his records anymore. Whatever but it's so nice to hear when people are just generally good people. And but i also think you bring that out in them to just the way you talk and now you made me look like a good guy the i it was. You couldn't find the station. Well i didn't know the back roads. I was a newbie. i. I gave a aaa membership. After that. he doesn't know you know it's true the way you treat someone. Oftentimes is is the way they're gonna treat your back. I'm not going to suggest that this is foolproof. There were times when as nice as i am in his as conscientious of their situation. They still in a bad mood. But that's okay but for the most part people are people are pretty generous sitting in a room with someone who's been in on interview tour on a junket a movie person in there. You're the fifteenth guy. That's gonna sit there for five minutes and get some sound. You have two choices. You can ask the same old question. You can try a different approach. Try different approach. Sometimes sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't we won't talk about your green room eminem's that yours you know brown and grabbed the only two colors otherwise you throw tantrums. So we'll we'll leave that for next time. That's the other side of jordan. So i know you left the nighttime in doing some of your own podcasting. Which you philip people in where they can hear you now. Sure thank you. I've been loving my sort of renaissance because of my experience in radio. Doing the kind of things we've been talking about the podcast world is opened up like a flower and i'm able to dip my toe into a lot of different ponds so With the gentleman. Who's working with you. And i introduced you to dan. Dan tibo and my business partner. Ken We've been going gangbusters with podcast. My own personal is very simply on mike with jordan ridge's available everywhere and i have done pretty much what i did on the air only. It's on my time. And with the people i want to have on so Got about two hundred twenty episodes in that range in. It's just fun as heck to pump amount every week. Yeah and still doing voice work and teaching and occasionally asked to come out and be the ryan seacrest. The cheap end of the ryan seacrest. Never no no no. I met dan at doing your pod. I did one of your first ones i think. Yeah that's where i met. Dan really candy. Was there because. Dan works on candies. And yeah that was put out candy. When you're there right greg snacks. It's payday candy that it's not a payday. I'm not coming. Just a cross between ryan seacrest and checky green will. I thought you were going to say jackie mason. I would just love jackie. May he rest respect. This is the week the jackie pass. It takes schmuck like you to take it up on. I've memorized is entire the world according to jackie mason routine the entire thing. We won't do it tonight but someday that'll be part two of the podcast that you're going to do. Love lines with dana as jackie mason. That would be love letters. But that's okay. I love lines is what people buy when i put the program together for the show was a game. Show love lines. I'm gonna look it up. Chuck woolery yes. It was c- love lines with chuck rule. Thank you for saving me jordan leisure. But you're also doing. Aren't you doing lunch podcasts. Or i don't know what they're called actually anymore. Well facebook live and it's every went every other wednesday for the most part. Dan is the genius by keep touting him because he so sharp any work so hard. Dan is the sort of sidekick and more important than that he produces the whole thing. And i haven't opportu and you guys will definitely be guests in the near future as we wanna have you positioned probably when you're going to do another show. We'll we'll have promoted but it's great because you might get a five hundred people live watching it but then you get thousands in the in the reruns and last week. We had loretta laroche a pistol in so much fun. So it's it's as close to doing a live television shows. You can get without having to you know. Have the cameras in all the nonsense. So it's really fun. It's really great. Yeah they've been great yet. I think loretta dyess Music theater few times. Oh yes she's she's amazing. She was great and We've had others musicians in non and it's it's it's been a kick been really fun. Yeah you're busier than ever. They say retirement is is quite time. I mean all i did was give up the the weekend late night thing that consumed me than i love but as you why not retirement is what you actually get to do when you don't have to go to work for a living you're absolutely right. I said earlier. How curious i am a more curious now than ever about a whole bunch of things because they have a little more little more time and You saw the stack of books that i'm going through and yeah it's just great awesome. Well now that you have all that time and you know you do. Have this theater bug. What is the one role at this point in your life that you would love to do on the boards i. That's that's a great question. I always wanted to play georgia. Am cohen and have to learn how to dance. I know you don't you see you've seen onstage. You don't know. I would also love shot at harold hill because when i was in high school i was in the chorus of them. According to tat barbershop quartet. But i memorized every line of harold hill. Because i think he's one of my favorite characters. I don't know actually One of the things that i can just tell you guys is that starting now. I guess i'm starting to work on it. I'm developing a one man show of sort that'll be based partly on the book and some of my experiences but really about radio working title is radio nights not to be confused with radio days and the goal is to have a show that's multimedia that'll just be me playing different parts of me and people in the bid so that's what i'm working on my audit. Nobody will hire me so why not. Well you got to self produce the cash me. Yeah we did our first Radio show at halloween last year. Since we couldn't perform we built that studio that we got a grant for we did our signal lace and it was fantastic. We're thinking about doing it again. Was honored to be to play the announcer in there and eye. Radio's still magical. I mean what we're doing now. This podcast people are imagining you. Know the the environs in how it looks and all that. Actually i must say greg has got a great backdrop He's got all the shows right. All the post judges from voices. And ed what do you have bowling trophies. What the hell is yeah. Yeah those are all of the programs from every single show. We've ever done all. I just can't see that far. Because of my i say oh there you go all. That's fantastic look at that. That is actually a quilt from every t shirt from every. Show that my friend. Diane early made for me. It's gorgeous. That is terrific guys. That is great. Yeah so we're we're thinking of doing another a halloween radio style. Show again so we'll have to be chatting I would love to do of the world's i love that show. And i think it would be fun. We have the capacity. We have the studio. We've got you know just And we've got time on her hands still because we're not doing a live show yet. We've actually done that together. Greg we did. We did need that was at the little theatre up in the shoba like love letters. Not love line like love letters. Wore the world is one of the best shows to do on stage. Because you're actually reading the real script so you don't have to learn the lines. Yes that's the nice thing about radio places in it and it's great I've done a lot of them over the years it you know what it is. It's it's corny to say this but it's the imagination that is kind of stilted now in a lot of ways because of everything being in your face a somebody went to angels game. They were telling me the other night in anaheim and said it's like being in the middle of a video game you just over sensitize As opposed to going to save. Fenway where you guys have performed many times. That's different experience. I think the beauty of the the sound in the audio. Which is why. I do what i do and you guys doing. This now is the imagination. Yep one of my favorite movies is Woody allen's radio days in my favorite my favorite part at it cracks me up. Every time is when the wife yells at the guy goes. He's a ventriloquist on the radio. How you know. He's not moving his lips favorite. See they love that. Hawk i hear the cannons raw cannons raw. Actually my favorite thing in high school was Robert desert area did a radio show at midnight on w. c. o. z. Ninety four point five. It was the hour of the wolf matinee and he would just do he would create his own own. Sounds his own characters but he would also play old sifi radio shows. It was just incredible. Now robert doesn't areo has his own joe. He's going on to do great things. My dear friend jerry. Goodwin duke madness was also be c. n. and he's a dear friend in he is to create characters bits and talk about that just cain. He's legend john boston. The great norm nathan who was a mentor. They just didn't with his magic. They didn't have to build a set. They didn't have to put on a wig. They just didn't with their voices. So yeah that's that's why we do what we do. You got to interview on my mile time. Heroes garrison keeler grew up listening to Prairie home companion. Our i saw he was in your book too and i actually got to meet him a couple of years ago. He did a One man act that the cabin up in beverly. And i actually got to meet him in just for like a minute and i was just like its garrison keeler. Yeah he was our voice in the midwest. When we were listening to radio we always look forward to his people that would was the powder milk biscuits yes powder milk to get guy war. Robin williams was on his show. But the singers everytime he gets robin williams. Like oh it's going to be comedy and it's robin williams. The thing i'm like okay. Well you're from the mid west. And i think some of our greatest rock on tours johnny carson. Obviously but my favorite person on the planet is gonna be dick cabinet. He's still at this point. Since the renaissance man having interviewed people like groucho. You know it's a dig cabinet. And i had him interviewed him several times. And just a fascinating human being you know. So bright and witty and urbane and goofy. That's why like skew guys in the mid west or goofy. Yes we are. we are very goofy. I can tested at his drove out there and drove back through the midwest. I can tell you a lot of goofy people and if you go to canada your goofey goofy you betcha not as many jokes. I thought we'd have it end with that. One which added joke. I i might have. I can't thank you enough for coming on. It's it's kind of I was intimidated. Interviewing the guys interviewed me for the last ten years in continues to do so. You still gonna give us Airtime on busy on the weekend new england weekend. I'm busy and when we got things coming up making truly appreciate all the time that you give us all the love that you give us some we give it back tenfold for everything you've done for us for the past ten years introducing us to people we never would have met teaching us this medium. How to market ourselves a little bit. Better introducing me to dan. Try has guided us through our little podcast minefield. That we're doing now. Like i said you've been in everybody's homes for the past fifty years but we're so glad you joined our home so we're very happy to have you with us. Which would have made me the greatest cat burglar the history of cry on a kick. Go without saying that. I became my wife's mother's hero because i was friends with jordan ren she was your biggest fan and a close with this. I say to my wife. Roberta i say you know you don't have to worry. I have a lot of rabid fans. But i can still at my age outrun them because most of them are no walker driven and the writers. No actually i love. I love the the seniors They're they're the most loyal audience we wouldn't have any radio audience without. She gets so excited when you fill in for dan rae. She goes jordan's on dan rate. And i thank you very much just friendship in all your professionalism when you're doing our shows and we're just coming on your show we can't thank you enough for being a part of our family and we can't wait to have you back on our stage we're going to be a. I can't reveal the show. We're doing this spring but we'll talk to you about it and you never know. Maybe there's an announcer role. I don't. I don't remember if there's something we might be able to put you in so you can get back on the boards for a little bit. You know dana creates yeah dana. Thank you this was a code. I really love having the tables german with such good friends who was great. Thank you thank you very much ed. Thank you again for another great podcast. Yep you too. We'll be back next week with another guest. I just want people know to go to. Vh boston dot org. Check us out and see what we do. We raise money for cancer research through our theatrical performances for the to mir center for targeted therapies of at the mass general cancer center this year in last year. We've not been able to do our live events so anything you can do to support us through donation via wage. Boston dot org up in the right hand corner of your screen. Click donate one buck five bucks ten bucks it all that million. That comes in every once in a while we would love to have so again. Thank you thank you. Dan for your engineering thunderstorms jordan again. Thank you for being a guest in. We will see you soon tonight everybody.

jordan rich jackie mason white carson norm crosby kennedy library mickey rooney pina collado ryan seacrest kirk douglas jazzman freddy kruger Mr conard moses frank gordon north shore music theater jordan wang center roy harry harry bradberry Dan
JFK and the Secret Tapes

Moonrise

46:00 min | 2 years ago

JFK and the Secret Tapes

"The Moon Rise podcast is sponsored by Lighthouse from the Moon to Mars Lighthouse is proud to support NASA and the space industry with the right tools technology science and innovation they need for their most critical missions learn more light owes dot com slash space the President John F. Kennedy entered the House of Representatives and walked down the center aisle. It was may twenty fifth nineteen sixty st one. He was getting ready to Pitch Congress on going to the moon his vice president and the leaders at NASA better have been right. This better be a genius plan. He climbed the steps to the lectern and then he turned to face the Sea of lawmakers. He leaned toward the microphone on and he started his speech. These are extraordinary times and we face an extraordinary challenge our strength as well as convictions at imposed upon this nation the role of leader in freedom's cause was is a speech to a joint session of Congress. This is space historian writer. Alania and it's got all kinds of stuff in the congress a negative to establish a breakdowns and enlarge disarmament agency but the big centerpiece of this is the Moon Landing Kennedy left the moon announcement until last fast and he worked his way up timid by saying we ought to win the battle but is now going on around the world between mm freedom and tyranny the dramatic achievements in space which occurred in recent weeks should have made clear to us all as did the sputnik in nineteen fifty seven the impact of this adventure on the minds of men everywhere in other words and what I'm about to propose to you is something that can help us win over the minds of people across the world convince them that Democrac- Z. Not Communism is the better way forward since early in my term equity space have been under review with the advice of the vice president who is chairman of the National Space Council. We have examined where we strong and where we are not where we may succeed and where we may not now it is time to take longer strive. I'm great new American enterprise time. I'm for this nation to take a clearly leading role in space achievement which in many ways may hold the key to our future on earth she forward the plan big idea. I therefore at the congress above and beyond the increases creases earlier requested for face activities do provide the fund which needed to meet the following national goal famous words are I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth her no singles faith project in this period will be more impressive to mankind or more important for the long range expiration of space and then he goes on to talk about this is something that will be hard to do and non-mobile so difficult or expensive to accomplish yeah. I think we should do it. Think it's the right thing to do but it's going to be very expensive is going to be very time consuming and if we do not commit to doing doing the full thing. Let's not start now and ultimately it's you congress has to decide on whether or not we do this. He had he had a paragraph in speech that talked about let it be clear and this is a judgement which the numbers of the Congress must finally made let it be clear. I am asking the Congress on the country to accept a firm commitment to a new course of action a cost which were lost for many years and carry very heavy cost five hundred thirty one million dollars in fiscal sixty two and estimated seven to nine billion dollars additional over the next five years. If we OUGHTA go only halfway or reduce off sites in the face of difficulty in my judgment it would be better not go at all at the end of the speech. He Ad Libs again with the same thing. This is going to be hard. It's going to take a longtime cost a lot of money and if you don't want to see it through tell me now. Let's not do it and there's no sense in agreeing lien or desire and United States taking a survey position in outer space unless we are prepared to do the work and bear the burden to make success we are not we should decide today if Congress clapped while a little bit. It didn't sound very enthusiastic. He didn't get a standing ovation when he had just asked Congress to fund sending a spaceship to the moon and they were applauding like like they couldn't really care less he left. Capitol Hill ducked into the presidential motorcade and headed back to the White House. Wondering what on Earth have I done. million came with the Washington Post to miss is you is British explorer. George Mallory was to die on Mount Everest was asked why did he want climate. You said because it is ah basically and we're going to climbin and the phone on the planet and new to hold phonology doubts. It was the first public announcement Kennedy made about going to the moon and already doubts were creeping in. Maybe it was a bad idea. Didn't they see his rationale. We went to the moon in the nineteen sixties for very specific geopolitical a your political purposes absent those geopolitical purposes. We probably wouldn't have done it. Kennedy didn't announce the moon goal because he thought the science sense of it was important because the dream spoke to him in some profound spiritual way no he was committing to it because he wanted to achieve something thing right here on earth. It was because of global alignment to win the hearts and minds of the public. They were competing for global influence. They were in front of an international audience. That's an essential part of what made the space race a race why we were in it in the first place. This is teasing them. Um We're harmony curator the Apollo collection of the national air and Space Museum often when people think of the space race or project Apollo they focus on the competition between the United States and the Soviet Union without asking about the nature of that competition and what they were competing for in the wake of World War Two hard power so like invading countries and conquering them into submission that had fallen out of favor in fact many countries previously under colonial rule had recently gained into their independence Algeria Nigeria Senegal Uganda India Malaysia just to name a few all these newly independent countries were choosing what kind of government they wanted to be and what allies they wanted to have. Kennedy wanted them to choose democracy and America Project Apollo is one of the prime examples of soft power. You're the United States or the Soviet. The Union and you want an empire. You want to rule the world. Don't force these countries to bend to your will entice them put on a show. The idea of sending humans to the moon was almost deliriously bold but it would prove that the united rated states had the technology the money that firepower and the determination to be a superpower the superpower the ally ally of choice and Apollo is the perfect story to support look bad idea that is if the United States could pull it off. Kennedy was already starting to wonder if he she had just totally politically miscalculated. How is he going to win over the hearts and minds of the planet if he couldn't even even get his own congress excited about it. Ted Sorensen the president's speechwriter had sat on the sidelines and watched Kennedy deliver the address to Congress and Ted Sorensen was a brilliant word Meister He's the guy who wrote ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country from Kennedy's inaugural. JFK had come off a little uncertain. Sorenson thought and plus the president usually never swerved from his script. It seemed like a sign of his doubts that Kennedy had thrown in that extra unplanned emphasis at the end about how if Congress doesn't want to do this. Just tell me now they left. Capitol Hill together on the way back to the White House after that speech to Congress. He's in the Limo with Ted Sorensen writing the two miles back to sixteen hundred Pennsylvania Avenue on this Spring Day. The weather was climbing into the eighty s but they both were full suits and ties. Sorenson had black framed glasses. Kennedy was despondent. He tells Sorenson. I think these guys are going to go for this. you know they didn't exactly we stand up and cheer when I now we're going to do this and and Sorenson says it'll be fine. Mr President Lyndon has got everybody everybody under him under control and Vice President Lyndon Johnson did have it under control. He was a master of the Senate. He knew how to he knew how to manipulate people. Before Kennedy even stepped foot on Capitol Hill Johnson had made the rounds in Congress sealing up support in advance advanced for the Moon Project. You start buttonholing the leadership and saying okay. Here's what we WANNA DO WANNA. Do you know can do we have the votes. He had it all lined up so maybe. Kennedy didn't know that her fully realize it or maybe thought they changed your mind when he was concerned that they might not support poured it but there was never a question. Johnson had an all wrapped up before they gave the speech whether Kennedy knew that or not or believed it would work or not. He arrived back at the White House that day worrying. Something had gone wrong. He was thinking about what to do something something clever that could get him out of this spot. Khrushchev greeted at the station at the arrives Babel's. President Kennedy is next time this team at flies in from the rival the bigger than the American embassy and the first problem only about a week later Kennedy met with Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev. They had a summit in Vienna to try to diplomatically resolve some Cold War tensions. The mean discussion was the fate of Berlin. It was the first and the only time that these two heads of state would confront each other face to face but Kennedy Kennedy still had the moon on his mind this is somebody brought him the number. What's IT GONNA cost Perrin mccurdy author of space in the American imagination back back then twenty one to twenty five billion dollars a huge part of the federal budget. His budget director tells him NASA is going to break the bank with this moon program it would just plant the economic development agency and all of this the Working WanNa do an education and cities would eat up all that money it was the largest civilian alien technology program in the US history outstripped the Panama Canal. Manhattan project was just such a massive scale so Kennedy's thinking King of the United States to do. Can we figure a way out of this. That's the crazy thing Kennedy's trying to get out of the commitment. He had an idea ball Kennedy he was here in Vienna for the summit. What if he invaded Khruschev to go to the moon with him turning this into joint project with the Americans and the Russians doing this together together it would save the US a ton of money it would look like a diplomatic breakthrough and frankly it would eliminate the risk of failing publicly Likley so Kennedy gave it a shot history has mostly buried this fact but he actually proposed opposed to this Roy Kirsh off aside and say you'll is discovered this. Let's go together together and and initially Khrushchev says was something with talking about but the more he thought about it. The more Khruschev reasoned wait a joint program would give the Americans a real good understanding of what we can do and can't do in space and by by extension what we can and can't do with our nuclear deterrent that seemed problematic plus so far this space as competition have been great for Khrushchev these he's finally going to Tooley. Can you beat the United States and the Soviet Union look good and embarrassed the United States with within. That's the one thing he really needs. Barry chief NASA historian a crucial soft through Kennedy's. The Kennedy's objective was to take the embarrassment of so his one S in space all time off the table and it's really his objective so okay we he's a beach it to the moon moved the goalpost to the end of the decade and that's one way we can end it or other ways. Will you know collaboration in so it's a race anymore. It's working together in space. F- either either one of those things is great for Kennedy horrible for so we had no real incentive to do nonetheless. Kennedy did raise it again the next day and and Khrushchev says well over again. It's something we're talking about but I really think we need to do something about Nuclear-test-ban Treaty and maybe some sort of Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty before we go down that road so Khrushchev Killed Kennedy's hopes of joining forces to go to the moon and that was the end of it joint lunar program never gets off the ground. Kennedy felt he had blown it and Vienna. All of his diplomatic tactics at the summit had actually gone pretty poorly the discussion in about Berlin included two weeks later back in the United States. The Soviet ambassador paid a visit to the president of the White House. He had something to give Kennedy from Khruschev. It was a puppy in the ambassador said your wife the first lady she asked Chairman Khruschev over dinner in Vienna about one of the dogs we sent into space. This is stroke gus puppy. It's a gift Kennedy had no option but to take the puppy its name was pushing the Russian word for for fluffy and it was fluffy. It was a fluffy little mount with wait for and gold tipped ears and it would live at the White House in the humiliation was piling on he was barely into his presidency and already Kennedy had the Yuri Rica Garen fight the Bay of Pigs the moon announcement he regretted the botched meeting in Vienna and now this a fluffy queued you'd mortifying reminder of the Soviet lead in space and a reminder of Kennedy's failed summit with Khrushchev which Kennedy me had called the worst thing in my life in nineteen sixty one was something of a rocky first year for Kennedy. When it came to space he committed to the moon he tried to get out of it. Alan Shepherd became the first American to go to space but he only went up and down. He didn't orbit like you're a Garin had already done plus Gus Grissom who was the second. US astronaut to go into space he had a nearly disastrous landing in the summer of sixty-one shortly after the botched Vienna Summit Chris flew up to space briefly then when his capsule landed in the sea the the hatch blew open prematurely and the capsule and GRISSOM's spacesuit flooded with water and he nearly died but as nineteen nineteen sixty-one turned into nineteen sixty-two the Apollo programs started to rev up in one thousand nine hundred thousand one in Congress had given NASA budget of almost seven hundred and fifty million dollars to support the new space flight program by nineteen sixty two congress increased it again to more than one point two billion and by that February John Glenn successfully completed his orbit around Earth conquering hero John H Glenn. He left his star agreements white as pathways the President Kennedy who was getting more comfortable embracing his commitment. We have a long way to go in the space race and we started late but this is the new ocean and I believe the United States must sail on it despite. JFK's initial concerns concerns public enthusiasm for the program was growing John Glenn Sloan Jr had been watched on television screens across the country. The networks Steven Prime I'm coverage and Saifi figures in particular were eager to help the space program alone L. Ron Hubbard the former astounding magazine writer and the scientology founder he wrote Kennedy a long ladder in nineteen sixty two. He offered to provide ride scientology counseling for the astronauts to further improve their accuse. The government did not take him up on that offer. Ray Bradbury the author of Fahrenheit four fifty one also wrote Kennedy a letter saying that he'd spent his whole writing career thinking about space and science fiction and he would love to help the administration in any way needed. Kennedy need did respond to that letter and he thanked him. ooh. The Kennedy Library up in Boston has a large archive of these presidential letters as well as old White House tapes heaps and oral histories and one of the old interviews it has is with Rocketeer Werner von Braun the details and his interview interview gave me this ferry vivid picture of how Kennedy interacted with the Apollo Program in September of nineteen sixty two so almost a year and a half after his moon speech to Congress Kennedy decided to visit a number of the space facilities around the country and his I was NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville Alabama von Braun gave the president a tour for a few hours along with Vice President Johnson and NASA Administrator Jim in Web. He showed them the Saturn rocket under construction in and the Saturn five was enormous. Just this first stage of the rocket. It was one hundred and thirty eight feet high. It was so tall that it couldn't stand up in the workshop. It had to lie on its side. Von Braun walked the president passed it and they looked like ants when the Saturn five was complete it would be taller than the Statue of Liberty in that interview von Braun gave he recalled that Kennedy turned to him at one point during the tour and said. Do you think we've bitten bitten off more than we can chew. The scale of this undertaking was hitting Kennedy von. Braun said no Mr President if Congress keeps up the funding. I think we have a good chance of getting to the moon. The Moon in writing podcast is sponsored by Lighthouse Deep Space is calling and lighthouses helping the Space Industry's innovators answer the call for modernizing Nasr's enterprise. It Eh to processing over thirty five thousand pounds of mission critical supplies each year to keep the international space station fully operational lighthouse delivers the it engineering and science to advance today's most important space capabilities learn how at lighthouse dot com slash space after a few hours von. Braun was supposed to bid farewell to the president who is headed straight to Florida to get a similar tour of Cape Canaveral but von Braun had gotten to chatting with vice president and right before they were about to leave Johnson asked Fawn Brown. Why don't you hop aboard Air Force to tag along with us for the rest of the trip. Von Braun was not one to say no oh so he climbed aboard the vice president's plane no toothbrush no change of clothes of course no cell phone at that time he left behind his staff at the Marshall Space Flight Center and he jetted off on this multiday adventure across the other space centers of the South it down in Florida at Cape Canaveral. They walked around the Massive Rocket Launch Complex Kennedy Eddie wore a pinstripe suit and he squinted up at this skyscraper scaffolding of the launch pads then he'd slip on his sunglasses before taking them off again they looked at mercury capsules they met with large crowds of site workers shook hands with astronauts. WCHS US based capital the president or the long chat with Waldron. 'em Shera Center our next men and Kennedy had set all of this in motion. It was hard to tell if he was proud or afraid of this thing he had unleashed. Maybe both the next day they arrived lived in Houston. It was a blazing hot day for a speech especially with the humidity von Braun road in in an air conditioned Cadillac limousine as part of the presidential entourage but he was still sweltering President Kennedy on the other hand road the forty minutes or so to Rice University stadium in an open convertible the strong Texas Sun beating down on them. Kennedy delivered his speech from the field of the stadium. No she'd gene insight we meet at a college noted for knowledge and they said he noted for progress mm-hmm noted for strength and we stand in need of all three opening lines might not be too familiar but this would become one of Kennedy's means most famous presidential speeches and that's because of the part he said about the moon why some say the move why choose this as our goal and they may well ask why climb the highest mountain why thirty five years ago fly the Atlantic it was crafted by his speechwriter Ted Sorensen Rice Lake Texas but that line was a last minute addition from Kennedy. The speech had the grandeur and the poetry and the delivery that was missing from the one he gave Congress choose to go to the mall. I think we choose to go to the MOV-. We choose to go to the moon and this and do the other thing not because they are easy because they may call that gold will serve organize. Johnson sat right behind him listening his sunglasses on. He unbuttoned his jacket. He wiped the sweat off his neck with a handkerchief. Spectators flapped their hats in their face like fans but if you watch the video of the speech and you keep your eyes on Kennedy you never know it was scorching hot. He had come a long way from the attended senator announcing his presidential run in the Senate caucus room because that challenge is one that we're willing to accept one we are unwilling to both bone and one we intend to win the others the soaring hopeful pros of Kennedy's speech may give the impression that he had been won over by the Grand Promise of scientific achievement men to the moon shot represented not exactly later that fall of nineteen sixty two JFK they had a meeting in the Oval Office that laid bare his views on space. There was a secret recording made of this meeting reading and it's incredible. It's so cool. It's like you listen to. It and it's like you're a fly on the wall for Kennedy's moon conversations in the White House it took about forty years from the conversation for the Kennedy Archives to find this recording and make it public. Good things come to those who made the the whole process of declassifying information is is is complex. This is Jamie Roth the deputy director of the Kennedy Library. We didn't know about the tapes until after the Watergate scandal happened. Nixon talked about how presidents had taping system but once they were found and then declassified and finally released the audio gave a really amazing window into Kennedy's Kennedy's views on the moonshot particularly this recording of the Oval Office meeting in the fall of sixty two. The tape is a bit hard to make out clearly in spots but I'm obviously going to play it for you anyway because it's so fascinating this is November twenty first nineteen sixty two at the White House and Kennedy is arguing with NASA administrator. Jim Webb about the progress of the Apollo Program. You know I do not. I think you were okay so JFK's asking Jim Webb here. If if the Moon Program is Nastase top priority and web actually says No. He says we have a bunch of top priorities and Kennedy. He's like Whoa stop right there. Clear Kennedy political the region work. The president is saying like it or not. We are doing this for international geopolitical reasons and we are in a race here. Web starts to push back on him saying listen soon. This is hard. NASA might need more time and resources to pull this off web says that live under the condition addition and the President's science advisor Jerome Wiesner cuts in the service and we're making the wildest guess sure they're all going back and forth and they're getting kind of riled up. The scientists are like we need you to support all all these other space science initiatives that will help us get to the moon we can't actually land there unless we put some time and money into figuring out these related space. Speiss challenges and Kennedy's Lake. Let me be very clear. There's only one reason we're spending this kind of money and even going to the moon at all to beat the Russians that we do order to get all of the ball every time. They believe that we've told people were preeminent in space. No one believes us. It's like what we need is to just get to the moon. It's fun to listen to the dynamic and the tension and seeing the president asking questions and and and really discovering what he's looking for and web giving it back to the president on bit saying you know what you're talking about and can use your right. I don't I am not interested enough. Now should be sending money because I'm not that interested. Statement gets good. We ought to know about it. Reasonable to whip partner by in Asia is to be damn where I'm not that interested in space. That's the big takeaway. Though the only justification to do it is because we hope to be them Kennedy as real from conversations that happened in the White House. It's that they're on tape now. We Kennedy really didn't care about the space program Nasa Bill Barry again but Web saw the space program is a is a very different if you did just what the president asked you to do which is sending people are GonNa get back. All you're really doing is a political spectacular which really has has no basis in reality and you so web is making the argument throughout the sixties whenever he meets the president that you know we need to have a robust based program we need. We may be studying the planet's. It's we need to be doing research. All kinds of things not just building a rocket. This in three is to the moon and Kennedy's not interested the tension between Kennedy Mighty and web kept bubbling up over the course of the following year Kennedy's a Boston. Your Democratic Democrat politician and web is an old southern boy who's used to talking a lot and explaining things and making his pitch and so they really roussel oil water in many ways by this point Kennedy's fears all along about the moon race look like they're going to come true. Congress was starting to lose interest in spending all this money. The program schedule was falling behind and Kennedy was now going into an election year with this albatross around his neck L. and it didn't help that his predecessor in the White House had been publicly criticizing his decision to go to the moon. He's Gone Eisenhower out there. WHO's constantly talking talking about how this is a stupid idea and he never would have done it himself and it is just an example of this rich playboy who's not very bright and who has no strategic ability to understand what's going on and he makes bad decisions and all that stuff imprint so if every Republican looking running for office uses as talking points against Kennedy it could be bad in September nineteen sixty three Kennedy and web had one more difficult meeting in office about the moon race. Kennedy was blunt with him that there haven't been any recent program achievements which which was a real problem for his reelection campaign. Then Kennedy Tells Charles Webb that Congress is probably going to reduce the funding and Kennedy asks him will the timing of the moon landing slip if that happens. It's for the year. We we running in just in case you had trouble totally catching. That Kennedy asked him point blank. Even if I get reelected acted we won't be pulling off a moon landing before him out of office. Will we and Webb said no no. We won't while this was just great. Kennedy had been convinced to pitch this wildly expensive utterly ambitious idea and and now congress was drying up the funding NASA couldn't make its deadlines and Kennedy was facing down a reelection bid looking naive and wasteful Foale and ineffective. It was time for one last hail. Mary only two days later Kennedy went up to New York to give a speech each of the United Nations it was September twentieth nineteen sixty three and he gave an old idea one more try he stood before the UN and he proposed once more to the Soviet Union this time in public the idea of healing they're cold war rivalry Tori and going together to the moon. Why should man's various flight to the moon be a matter of national competition. Fi should the United States and the Soviet Union in preparing for such expeditions become involved in immense duplications of research construction and expenditure. Surely we should explore whether the scientists and astronauts of ought to countries indeed of all the world cannot work together in the conquest of space. There is room for new cooperation a joint expedition addition to the moon but the thing is then nothing happened. The Soviet Union didn't respond with a resounding yeah. Let's go. It actually didn't respond at all. It was as if the president hadn't said anything. Kennedy was just left in limbo wondering what to do now keep pushing for a joint project abandoned the whole thing press on alone own autumn said in the trees near the White House changed their colors and they lost their leaves November member sixteenth nineteen sixty three Kennedy went down to visit Cape Canaveral again he was thinking through what in the world to due Brown was there. The president sat through a presentation on the launch vehicles that NASA ASA was building for the Apollo Program. There were charts and models of the various rockets on display. Kennedy got up and walked it over to them. He reached out to a model that was about a foot tall he said so. This is the redstone it was a replica of the rocket that had sent the first two mercury astronauts to space in nineteen sixty one he took it in his hand and he held it up next to one of the other models which was taller than Kennedy and are these models to the same scale. He asked yes they were that was the Saturn five rocket rocket. That would send three men to the moon. He looked around at the engineers and said Gee looks hike. We've come a long way. Brown remembered this moment and years later. He said there was something like a boyish enthusiasm about him. At the same time D. he please sincere afterwards. Kennedy boarded a helicopter here at Cape Canaveral and he viewed the launch complex from the air concrete bunkers and metal towers and giant rockets that started the coastline alongside the reads and the crates uh the helicopter turns and it flew out thirty miles over the the ocean. It landed on a navy ship and the president got out onto the deck. He watched a Polaris Missile Launch from a nearby submarine submarine. The ocean rumbled and then a rocket shot out from beneath the waves and into the sky it was late. November and the air was chilly but blue Kennedy had the wind in his his face but was smiling. That was the last time Werner von Braun saw him and he had an invitation to the White House von Braun and his WII for supposed to have dinner with the president and Jackie Kennedy but the dinner there was scheduled for about a week later Monday November twenty fifth that would end up being the day that John F. Kennedy Eddie was buried on the next episode of Moon Rise. Lyndon Johnson takes over the presidency and the Apollo program program and Sergei Korolyov returns. Thank you so much for listening to the Moon Rise podcast. We're nearing the final final few episodes in the series. If you want to support more of the journalism the Washington Post there's a special subscription discount for moon rise listeners. I just go to Washington Post. com slash moon rise offer moon rise is a Washington Post. Audio podcast is the result of the amazing work of producer Bishops Sand Project Coordinator Alyson Michaels our designer Courtney Con Director of audio install and the editing help of Carol Alderman. Our podcast launch event was hosted by the Adler Planetarium in Chicago. The experts who appeared on this episode were Bill Barry Chief Historian of NASA Roger Llamas a former chief historian of NASA Howard Howard mccurdy a space policy professor at American University Tisdale Moore Harmony the curator of the National Erin Space Museum's Apollo collection the author of Apollo to the moon and Jeannie Ross deputy director at the John F Kennedy Presidential Library archival recordings in this episode came from the John F Kennedy Presidential Library the United Nations NASA critical past. I'm William Cunningham the Creator and host of moon rise. Thank you so much for listening and we will be back next week with chapter your ten a great leader is Dan. A great nation must move on yesterday is not hours to recover but Tamara is ours to win our to Lou. I am resolved that we shall win tomorrow's before so I asked you to join me that abso- determine from this who are you the more

President Kennedy Kennedy president Congress White House Vice President Lyndon Johnson NASA Kennedy Library United States Kennedy Eddie Jackie Kennedy Werner von Braun President John F Kennedy Presidential Li John F. Kennedy Eddie Soviet Union Kennedy Archives vice president JFK Apollo Program
A new frontier

Moonrise

47:59 min | 2 years ago

A new frontier

"The Moon Rise podcast is sponsored by Lighthouse from the Moon to Mars Lighthouse is proud to support NASA and the space industry with the right tools technology science and innovation they need for their most critical missions. Learn more light owes dot com slash space It was two years after Linden Johnson's sputnik hearings the same are all hall of the Senate Caucus Room was now our ringing with activity again reporters clicked up three flights of stairs by the Rotunda of the Russell Senate building they filed in through the heavy wooden doorways they snatched up seeds and spots along the wall of that grand `and room television cameras were stationed in the back corner that were huge and loud and took several people to operate so there was a different senator now standing behind the long Mahogany table a little shorter than Johnson thinner younger in the American flag hung off to his right side. The cameras started rolling reporters held their pens over pads of paper waiting any me moment for it to start. I am today announcing my candidacy for the presidency of the United States January second of nineteen nineteen sixty John F. Kennedy then senator of Massachusetts announces the he plans to run for president of the United States. This is Keith Scott of the Senate historical office office. The presidency is the most powerful office in the free world through which leadership can come may more vital life for all of our people. She seemed seemed not very polished. He seems a little unsure of himself. Is Looking is no cards and this kind of uncomfortable fidgeting and he's so awkward in it are scented the hopes to the globe around us freedom and a more secure life. He doesn't exhibit any the of the vigor and confidence that I think of when I think of historic. JFK speeches don't win the presidential nomination. Will you accept the vice presidency. I shall not any condition the candidate annotate vice president. If I fail in this endeavour I shall return and serve a in the United States Senate and yet ten months later she would be elected the next president of the United States he beat out Lyndon Johnson for the Democratic craddock nomination Johnson a fellow senator more than that the Senate majority leader a man who commanded this marble room during the sputnik hearings with charisma and sheer force of will I think that from Johnson's perspective he saw jfk as a political rival. I think that they both recognized in the other that they had ambitions political ambitions for the White House and so they were rivals to fairy different individuals with very different backgrounds which brought them to the United States Senate and I think think that some of those tensions caused by their political rivalry probably carried over that is carried over when Johnson became vice president and those tensions carried over to when Johnson pushed Kennedy to the moon. I'm Lillian Cunningham with the Washington Post. I want to say that there. We're not be under any conditions. The an intervention in Cuba United States on fourth basically when Cuba is not one in the United States and take it is from south on us to be found out there asking themselves if life exists on any of the planets tenants provide as irs questions is one of the major missions of NASA the National Aeronautic Sense Space Administration There's a myth that's grown up around President Kennedy's decision to go to the moon. We've memorialized his bowl golden inspiring moonshot speeches. We've credited him almost as the architect of this idea and yes he did as president commit the United States to that goal but the question we've been working our way towards this whole time is why somebody gave him that idea he she didn't dream it up on his own who and what made JFK say let's do it. We have come finally to the part of our story where the wild sci-fi fantasy of sending humans to the Moon becomes an actual government program and to understand that last piece of the puzzle requires picking up here two years before the election of John F. Kennedy when NASA was created the National Aeronautics Sense based administration NASA officially got up. I've been running on October first nineteen fifty eight so almost exactly a year after the Soviet Union launched sputnik it actually wasn't even referred for two as NASA at first. Everyone called it that NASA Dwight Eisenhower was still president at the time he ordered NASA asset to absorb a bunch of different space related efforts from around the government and military branches NASA absorbed the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics six it absorbed Aeronautical Research Labs Lake Langley and aims the Jet Propulsion Laboratory that was being run out in California for the army it also absorbed a human spaceflight program that the Air Force was planning they came up with the idea after the Soviets launched like the dog and when the space lay program turned over to NASA they named it project Mercury there were already atlas and Jupiter rockets named from from classic mythology so they stuck with that name concept in myth mercury was a fast winged messenger and the grandsons of the Deities Atlas in Jupiter her they also decided to call the men and it was all men that would be trained to fight a space astronauts. The word had appeared appeared in an obscure Sci fi story from nineteen thirty called the death's head meteor but of course the word astronaut also had classical roots meaning. Someone who flies among the stars to to be cleared these men were not training in in any way to go to the moon. It was a group of seven men whose mission was just to test humans ability to orbit around the earth NASA decided to call these astronauts the mercury seven the agency had only been in existence existence for a few months but in April of Nineteen fifty-nine when they unveiled the mercury seven astronauts this is former chief NASA historian Roger Lonnie CBS and when they were unveiled it was a circus like atmosphere these man nations project Mercury astronauts which which of these men will be first to orbit the earth. I cannot tell you won't know himself day of the flight. It's amazing and to watch the old footage of this news conference first of all tons of people there are smoking through the whole thing including half the astronauts but what's really wild old is just how thrown together and informal the event feels thank you all. I really am here. You can tell them. NASA is so this us the ballroom from the dolley Madison House. Where did this press conference and they never seen so many people? The journalists were in from every media that you could think of television cameras movie real footage. Everything was there and it was uh circus like. I don't think there's any other way to characterize it. Competitive real honor gentleman you're right Malcolm S SCARPA NTER They Roy Roy g cooper John H Glenn Virgil I grissom while her sherlock big shuttered the seven men all white all under five foot eleven all between between thirty and forty years old ladies and gentlemen are the nation's Mercury astronauts of the mercury seven were so similar looking that they took to occasionally lining up in alphabetical order when pictures were taken of the whole group so that the newspapers would get the captions correct because people looking at the picture couldn't necessarily figure out easily who was who this is Margaret Way to camp of the Air Erin Space Museum and these seven men up on stage under the bright lights of the news cameras. They looked the part buzz cut hair military physiques. Here's mercury seven astronaut Wally Sheera answering a question during the event about what got him interested in go into tate's can answer that simply all of us in this room probably read comic strips such as Buck Rogers Flash Gordon Jules Verne routines and if we interested in reading things like this obviously we had intentions following something like this in our lifetimes listening to the rest of the the news conference the responses of all seven of these men seem to play right into the tropes of those science fiction tales of the nineteen thirties and forties to the the hero heading into a new place jokingly of course said that I got on this project because it probably be the nearest to have ever get I had no one to make the most of it a love interest with a lot of Moxie as a matter of fact when I was notified that I was to be considered I was at sea at this time and so my wife called Washington and volunteered for me a kind of older figured scientists of some sort who's advising the young usually blonde muscular male hero I on an perfect killed which one of you John John Lewis. That's easy. They're all above love normal. Yes right now for the announcement. At NASA headquarters they were wearing jackets and ties but for their spacesuits well it seemed obvious what things look like. You've got a whole generation that really grows up in the nineteen fifties with these dreams of spaceflight that are very much connected to silver lemay suits and kind of militaristic style uniforms with giant lightning bolts on them. These were basically the costumes on the popular sci-fi. TV Shows Space Patrol and sure enough soon the astronauts would be photographed in their shiny silver space suits silver helmets silver boots and the blue logo of NASA with a red swoosh across their chest. They were ready to take America on an adventure to space they really were very useful. Sort sort of public relations people as well as being highly technically capable pilots and they just captured the imagination of the of the American public in ways that nobody had ever been able to do previously fiction blurred into reality reality blurred into fiction and before nuclear nightmares had come true so maybe now another Sifi prediction was about to be realized the dream of flying through the stars that said keep been mind. This was still the tail end of the Eisenhower Administration. JFK had an even announced his presidential run yet so for now the chances says seemed pretty slim that product mercury would turn into anything more fantastical than simply aflaid around the Earth Nasa of course makes everything thing about the positive side and NASA has been very effective is sort of selling that argument the military which has the piece of it that is really about terror error and destruction they don't talk about that too much. I would contend that that duality has always been president still was I in terms of space we we think of it as this positive opportunity for us to get off this planet and go somewhere else to explore explore it. That's sort of a hopeful future approach but there's just as much about this. That's about it sort of a negative side to as project mercury began. Dan and NASA came into its own. It's not like the military efforts stopped if anything the military branches now had more bandwidth for our programs that focused on the defense aspects of Space Werner von Braun was still part of the army he watched as is NASA chose astronauts and photographers clicked their cameras and the public laughed and swooned at an idea of spaceflight that foam brown own had been pushing all along around the time the mercury seven were announced von Braun's group the Army Ballistic Missile Agency. They had an idea they came up with a military reason for extending space travel beyond project mercury it was called hold project horizon and the plan was that they would create a military base on the moon and the chief authors of it where staffers who worked for Brown their proposal was more than a hundred pages long and it's full of diagrams ends and cosmic drawings and amazing technical details of why and how we would set up this main base under this army plan they would start delivering cargo to the moon by nineteen sixty five and then there would be a task force of twelve soldier astronauts living on the moon army base by nineteen sixty six and according to the report the benefits of the space would be almost uncountable first and foremost it would give the United States the ultimate highground. We'd have a prime spot for surveillance of the Earth we could build moon based East weapons that could destroy enemy targets. The proposal argues that this might even be the best way to avoid war and to ensure peace on the planet because because WHO's going to attack the United States if we have a base on the moon we can retaliate from embedded in the proposal was the idea that the moon and all this peace between the earth and the moon should be considered a military theater which ran not only only should we build a base they said but we also needed to create a US space command basically a new military branch for space von Braun's group wrapped up this report by June of Nineteen fifty-nine the proposals proposals big point was that we learned our lesson from Sputnik about what happens when we're second. We have to raise to catch up. Let's not repeat that being second to a satellite launch that's not great but it's not catastrophic the being second to planting a flag on the moon and claiming it with it's a military base. You can't be second. You're either I or it's came over they. They put this whole big proposal in front of Eisenhower and Eisenhower rejected it as in Harris Philosophy was I don't see any reason to pursue a moon program or any of that kind of stuff we have no enemies on the moon he rejected and he got these guys and their space proposals calls out from the army and over to NASA it was almost like Eisenhower's on NASA as the place to put all the dreamers and schemers who are are interested in space travel so they would stop money being serious defense objectives of his military von Braun's rocket team stayed in Huntsville Alabama the same place that had been for the army but they became part of a powerful new NASA operation located there called the Marshall Space Space Flight Center and on Brown was named its director just like that von Braun finally became the head of the US rocket program for space. The Moon in writing podcast is sponsored by Lighthouse Deep Space is calling and lighthouses helping the Space Industry's innovators answer the call for Modernizing Nastase Enterprise. It he to processing over thirty five thousand pounds of mission critical supplies each year to keep the international space station fully operational lighthouse delivers the it engineering and science to advance today's most important space capabilities learn how at lighthouse dot com slash space from the White House in the office of the president of the United States. We present an address by Dwight D Eisenhower. This is the farewell address for President Eisenhower who's eight years as chief chief executive come to an end at bloom writing. Mr Eisenhower has chosen this time for his finest speech ladies and gentlemen the President of the United States good evening. My fellow Americans Eisenhower left office in January of Nineteen Sixty one and the council of government we we must guard against the acquisition of unwanted influence whether sought orange zone by the military industrial complex his farewell farewell speech was full of warnings. The potential for the disastrous rise up misplaced power exists and will persist mornings about communism. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic process. We should take nothing for mm-hmm mornings not to use national security as a justification for over militarization only alert and knowledgeable citizenry can't compare the proper meshing the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security security and liberty may prosper to get Eisenhower also gave a warning. That's less remembered today but it's right there at the heart of his speech in holding scientific research and discovery in respect as we should we must also be alert to the equal equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become captive of a scientific technological elite in other words. He said be careful that these pushes space scientists don't steer government priorities. He gave this speech at eight thirty PM January Seventeenth Nineteen Sixty one from the Oval Office his image pulsed across American television screens in black and white and at the end of it he took off his glasses he folded in his hands. He leaned back in his chair and he just said it began a new era on the Radio Etta James and Chubby Checker in books Robert Heinlein had published what would become his most famous starship troopers about a future war between humans and aliens and the rise is of space soldiers on television programming was slowly making the switch from black and white to color and in the Oval Office Office John F. Kennedy was president forty three years old. The youngest man ever elected to the office Kennedy had talked during his campaign about closing the missile gap and beating the Soviets but when he got into office he saw this seem intelligence reports that Eisenhower had at which point jfk then realized what Eisenhower had been trying trying to convey all along at the United States already did outpace the Soviet Union when it came to ballistic missiles those satellites were just effective Soviet propaganda stunts you know when when Kennedy came into office in January of nineteen sixty when he had no special interest in space Roger Lonnie us again he had used the idea of a missile gap that the Soviets had capabilities the greater than ours in terms of ballistic missiles as a as a hammer in the in the political campaign but beyond that he didn't really really know or care very much and and and by the way we know he didn't really care that much because NASA comes into his office right after he takes office and wants it's more money to work on a larger rocket and they couldn't get anywhere inside the administration on this. They were having the difficulty getting to see the president even on it but finally Jim Webb who was the NASA administrator found a way into the Oval Office Kennedy Says Okay you can have about half the money you you want but not all of it and and so if he was such a Gung Ho space enthusiast he would have gone on for this with no trouble at all he didn't and he sort of went away from that not paying too much attention to a after the fact until guarantee launch on the twelfth of April now that change angel things century outside of his first Yuri Gagarin's launch questions that have arisen the West asked about the validity of his life have no place here today as the House while Lola. I never would have a boy pool. I would is Sam unusual them on April twelfth nineteen sixty one so just a couple months into his presidency Kennedy had his own version of a sputnik moment the US was in the process of training the mercury seven to fly into space when news came that a Soviet rocket had lifted off from Earth carrying the cosmonaut Yuri Garden the Soviets had retrofitted a spy satellite into a module that good garin construction self into and orbit the planet newspapers around the world the next day carried images of Garin headlines marked this historic moment great success in space. When the Russians pushed a man across the Rancho he was Eureka Garden the astronaut the Russians lionised as the first to orbit the earth it was the propaganda the crew of the year and there were boastful quotes from Nikita Khruschev like let the capitalist countries try to catch up the Soviet Union had now beaten the United States to every spe- stunts so far I satellite in space first animal and space now first human in Space Khrushchev the Soviet premier was very adept at using those space spectaculars killers as sort of ways to beat up the Americans? Look at how good we are and we can do this stuff and apparently you can't then he gained a lot of world prestige. Dj's a result of this so it's sort of soft power I jeff was able to use it. I mean he immediately sent Uruguay Garin world tour and good Garin they could not have found a better more personable more charisma matic individual is sort of the John Glenn type as tens of thousands horrid events where they got a glimpse of their hero and and had that attraction that people liked and so he becomes really affected. Pr Guy for the Union year behind Garin success of course was Soviet chief rocket engineer Sergei Korolyov he had pulled off yet another remarkable feat even more remarkable actually given that he had suffered a heart attack just a few months before quo yeah of was still experiencing having health problems from his time in the Gulag plus he was feeling the stress of some new friction between him and Khruschev on top top of the stress of his demanding work but for now he had another win to celebrate less than a week later the newspaper headlines turned even grimmer for the Kennedy Administration in the Bay of Pigs invasion went horribly wrong. It was supposed to be a covert. CIA operation to overthrow Fidel Castro's astros communist government in Cuba. It ended up being a very overt cold war failure for the United States. We intend the profit from this lesson. Community has to stand up and take the blame for it publicly. We intend to intensify our efforts for a struggle in in many ways more difficult than war disappointment will often accompany us and that Soviet success with Garin and that American failure at the Bay of pigs creates an environment where Kennedy says in essence. I have to change the subject. How can I get out of this mess mm-hmm and at that point he signals to his vice president Lyndon Johnson? What can we do in space that we can beat the Russians served? Let's first or foremost thing Eisenhower had rolled his eyes that what he saw as the false hysteria over Soviet space spectaculars there's and dramatic headlines Not Kennedy Kennedy didn't personally know a lot or care a lot about space but he understood understood that images mattered that they were possibly even more powerful than the reality behind them and that lead suspect to the moon in most telling of the space race. This is where the story begins Kennedy's decision to go to the moon is the opening line but there is a narrative track classic mythology calm in media race. That's Latin for in the middle of things it's when you start a story right in the midst of the action. The ILIAD starts in the middle of the Trojan war. The Odyssey's starts with Odysseus held captive partway through his voyage and now perhaps we realized that our American myth the the Apollo story starts in medias race to Kennedy's Moonshot decision looks like the beginning but it's actually Salihi the very middle of the moon tail so much has led to this moment so much that often gets obscured and not talked about going to the moon was not a foregone conclusion. It wasn't obvious it wasn't inevitable up until this point in the story. No one in power not even Kennedy was thinking of moon travel as a real option at all so why when Kennedy is battered heard by the Bay of Pigs and by jury guarantee flight is the idea of going to the moon the thing that gets into his head. Why did Kennedy decide that should be the goal well? He didn't at first on April twenty first nineteen sixty one so a week after guarantees flayed and in the midst of the fallout from the Bay of Pigs Fiasco Kennedy gave a news conference he had to answer reporters questions about the space race and Kennedy actually came off as surprisingly pessimistic the president's don't you agree. We should try to get to the moment before there. I suppose if we can if we can get to the moon before the Russians that we should doesn't it your responsibility to apply the the vigorous leadership to spark up this program. When you say the program I have to make a judgment based on the best information when we can get whether we can be ahead of the Russians to we're now talking about a program which may be which many years away and I just say to you regardless of how much much money we spend on the sat and the sat going to put us we still going to be second? Question is whether the nuclear rocket or other kinds of chemical rockets offer us a better hope nope of making a jump forward but we are second in the and this added will not put us first so in other other words. JFK wasn't sure there was any point investing further in a space program at all and yet something was happening behind the scenes scenes that would change his mind in private. He sent a letter to Vice President Lyndon Johnson. He said pulled together immediately a recommendation of what we could do in space that would actually give us a win on the world stage now. I really wanted to see this letter letter. JFK sent to Johnson firsthand so I went up to Boston to the Kennedy Library and archives so this is actually the letter that John Kennedy sent so you can see his signature here. I met there with Jamie. Roth Madonna di director so this is what he sent to the vice president. Do we have a chance of beating the Soviets associates by putting a laboratory space whereby a trip around the moon or by rockets to land on the moon or by a rocket to go to the moon and back with a man is is there any other space program which promises dramatic results in which we could win and that right there is I think a very he idea for the president a dramatic result which we could win and then Johnson had weep to find that information out and report back to the President Johnson with his big Texas drawl when over to Jim Webb Edmund new head of NASA which meant walking like a block from the White House Johnson goes out begins to talk to the people at NASA and says okay. What can what can we do here? Guys told me everything about where our space program stands. Tell me where we're behind Tony. If you have any great ideas for something we could do where we could actually beat the Soviet the Union we need some great space publicity right now so webb who's really new to all this stuff turns turns to his number two and NASA Hugh Dryden who'd been working on aeronautics for the government for a decade guys youngest. PhD's Johns Hopkins ever NASA's Chief Historian Bill Barry PhD Like Nineteen and Yours PhD dissertation on Supersonic Flight Hugh Dryden is this smart space guy with round glasses and pursed lips knows the INS and outs of everything the government could possibly due in space interesting guy. brilliant character does all this great stuff but he apparently annoyed a number of people borne Congress and he had some enemies on the hill which is why Johnson and Kennedy didn't consider him for the very top spot at NASA anyway so web turns to Dryden and says what could we suggest the president to Dryden says what could we suggest you'd never ask ask turns out. The scientists at NASA knew exactly what they wanted to convince Kennedy to do. They had just been waiting for an opening. They wanted to go to the moon. NASA had already been working up its dream plan with the help of internal leaders like Dryden and von Braun step one was to put up space capsule with personal board just to see if you can survive in space and that was essentially project mercury their second step was to build a winged reusable Zabol vehicle that would make it relatively easy to go back and forth to Earth the third step was to build a space station in Earth orbit that that winged cleaned reusable vehicle a space shuttle if you will would go up to rendezvous and dock with and the next step beyond that was is to dispatch from that space station a mission to the moon and ultimately to Mars in an oral history that tried in later gave to to the Kennedy Library he talked about how these plans had been floating around NASA even before Johnson came to speak with him in fact they he had tried selling Eisenhower on the idea a couple years earlier without any luck these studies channel internal acid. I thought that perhaps a new principal reverse president Eisenhower's project mercury and when you're trying to get at some position make proposals basis for optimism that that would be reversed at his bio. Was it coming through sales pitch so but fast forward to April and suddenly it looked like the moon shot might have a chance after all Johnson was is there specifically asking them for big ideas the workers that NASA had convinced Dryden who convinced Webb who then delivered the following recommendation condition to Johnson about moon landing and we can do that but we have to set the deadline so far into the future that the Soviets is can't sign can't use big rocket and beat us because they had a bigger rocket so we have to do something else and so that's where they hit up on a human landing on on the moon by the end of the decade that we give them enough time to be successful as long as they put the effort into it Johnson wrote in his recommendation and week later to Kennedy. You really need to consider a moon mission. Mr President Kennedy Library has the actual letter that Johnson wrote pushing this moon idea so here's a memo for the president was written by Vice President Johnson only rape great before we yes. It was high-priority markings that we're seeing about fifth so this is this could be the president's copy. He did like to doodle so it wouldn't be surprising if he he made these types of little squiggly lines but the other the other markings of you can see that this was really confidential and of course it was a declassified document this this was classified at the highest levels because it dealt with space and Kennedy had asked are we leader. Are we moving fast. Are we doing everything takes takes that we can to be leaders in the space program and Johnson's response was no. We're not doing everything we could. At this point he also. I goes on to say that it's GONNA cost five hundred million dollars to jump start the program that we are behind in the technology we are working on different ideas about the fuel whether we're going to do nuclear or liquid could feel those things but he's really saying to. The president were far behind where we ought to be but then he addresses Kennedy's question. What can we do about it? In Johnson's response he specifically mentions that a manned moon landing tonight be just the thing to get ahead Johnson points out that it would have quote great propaganda value and also that it is quote food is essential as an objective Johnson was sold but Kennedy got this note from his vice president and he wasn't as shore as you'll recall Kennedy and Johnson had different backgrounds and different political instincts so they decided to have a meeting in the Oval Office to discuss it. Jim was present as an acid administrator. I I think there is at least one person from the DOD and and they talked about what are the options and and Johnson laid out the Apollo. What became the Paul Program helped by the NASA folks who were there Lyndon Johnson by personality was very determined person Dan who was a political force in the White House Margaret Way to camp and so when he had something in his head that he really really wanted it was hard to dissuade him of that what if Johnson and web were leading the president astray this was a really big gamble Kennedy listened and he weighed the costs and benefits it was an ambitious goal but it was something something that NASA and his science advisers were telling him was achievable and that could be done with the technology that they had so he's thinking thinking about the international stage? She's thinking about national prestige and he's thinking about that worldwide reaction. What could we do get the world's attention person Kennedy give a hoot about space exploration? What do you care about was beating the Russians Nassim Spill Berry and this was kind of his desperation hail? Mary pass the the Soviet propaganda on that issue by moving the goalposts. Everyone's there in the room telling Kennedy. Look look what this does for us it helps us save face if the Soviets beat us to any more incremental space achievements it puts the US goal post host at the end of the decade which means we can brush off any stunts the Soviets do between now and then of course something. We're you just go see if the Russians do something we just go so what we'll see you on the moon Yuri Gagarin's flight the Bay of Pigs Disaster Kennedy was this one two three only three months into his presidency and already he was facing down a massive image problem he he needed an escape hatch diversion something to change the fate. He saw barreling his way see are you on the moon. What a crazy idea was it inspired inspiring in ninety see also strategic it was forged of pressure and anxiety and necessity in war and saving face and competition all the ugly things that make us human it was born of all things good and bad a month later? Kennedy arrived at Capitol Hill in in his presidential motorcade walked into the House of Representatives the largest room all of Congress he walked down the center center aisle to a full hall of Clapping Senators and representatives he climbed the steps. The lectern Keach Linden Johnson's John He shook the hand of John McCormack Speaker of the house then he turned and faced the huge crowd a giant American flag draped from the press gallery behind him he set down his papers. He leaned toward the microphone preferment and he started his speech hang on the next episode of Moon Rise. Kennedy's doubts grow Oh he thinks what have I done and he tries to undo it. Moon rise is a Washington Post audio podcast. It's the result of the work of producer Bishop Sand Project Coordinator Alyson michaels those are designer Courtney Khan and director of audio. Just stall extra. Thanks for the editing help of Carol Alderman. Our podcast president was hosted by the Adler Planetarium in Chicago. The experts who appeared on this episode we're Bill Barry Chief Historian of NASA Asa Roger Alana's a former chief historian of NASA. Jamie Roth the deputy director at the John F Kennedy Presidential Library. Sorry Kate Scott in associate historian in the Senate historical office and Margaret White Camp a curator at the national air and Space Museum Ziam archival recordings came from the John F Kennedy Presidential Library the Dwight D Eisenhower where presidential library NASA the Russian History Audio Archives of the Wilson Centers Kenan Institute critical past and the United States Information Agency enjoying the podcast recommended to a friend. We'd love your help spreading the word about it. I'm Lillian Cunningham. Dan The creator and host of moon rise. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week with chapter nine. Be One important thing for me who had bothered

President Kennedy NASA Vice President Lyndon Johnson president president Eisenhower United States vice president Kennedy Soviet Union United States Senate Mercury Kennedy Library Marshall Space Space Flight Ce JFK White House Lighthouse Deep Space Werner von Braun Jim Webb Washington Post
September 8, 2019: Watergate

Today in True Crime

14:00 min | 2 years ago

September 8, 2019: Watergate

"Today is Sunday September eighth two thousand nineteen on this date in nineteen in seventy four. US President Gerald Ford announced his decision to grant his predecessor Richard Nixon a full free and and absolute pardon for all crimes committed while in office ensuring that Nixon would not be prosecuted for his role in the Watergate scandal. Welcome to today in true true crime podcast original every day. We flip back the calendar to this date years ago and recount one event from true crime history. Sorry I'm Vanessa Richardson and today were covering President Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon before we unpack the ramifications of the pardon. Let's go back to the morning of September Eighth Nineteen seventy four just before eleven. Am Carl Bernstein typed the last sentence and hit the return key sending the carriage flying back to first position without waiting for the ink to dry he snagged the freshly written article from his typewriter grabbed his coffee mug with the other hand and pushed away from his desk. The thirty year old reporter wound his way through the expensive maze of desks and filing cabinets that made up the bullpen of the Washington Post by the time he reached the desk of city editor Berry Sussman. He had finished proofreading meeting. He deposited the pages on top of a stack of other completed articles and looked around only now. Did it strike. Bernstein that the bullpen was oddly quiet to be fair. It was a Sunday but like Bernstein. Many of the post reporters had long since abandoned and and the antiquated notion of things like weekends only minutes earlier the office had been a buzz with chatter but now there was no one in sight rounding column Bernstein found his colleagues crowded around the small TV in the corner as they often did whenever there was a game on Bernstein hadn't paid much attention to sports for the past two years but he thought he deserved a break on the TV screen President Gerald Ford Sat behind his desk in the Oval Office addressing the cameras by the sound of the things he had already been speaking for several minutes and by these presents do grant a full free and absolute pardon onto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he Richard Nixon has committed for a long moment after the broadcast had ended Bernstein continue despair at the television screen. He was vaguely aware that his colleagues we're watching him and wondered if his expression betrayed his rising blood pressure but before any of his colleagues could speak. Bernstein unturned and strode back to his desk. There was only one person he could talk to right now. The phone rang six times before Woodward word finally answered. Bernstein's partner sounded as if he had just woken up. Did you see it. Bernstein asked Woodward hadn't and he asked what Bernstein was talking about. The SOB pardoned the SOB Woodward didn't ask Bernstein to clarify which Sob's Oh bees he was referring to there was no need the reporters had spent the last two years covering the Watergate scandal for the Washington Post they had been responsible for some of the biggest scoops early on when virtually every other newspaper was ignoring the story it had all started on June seventeenth nineteen seventy two when five men were caught breaking into the offices of the Democratic National National Committee with bugging equipment by tracing checks deposited in the bank accounts of the Burglars Woodward and Bernstein discovered that the men and had been paid through Nixon's own reelection committee the break in and ensuing scandal soon became known as Watergate after to the DC building complex that housed DNC headquarters Nixon of course vociferiously denied that any of his men had been involved even when Woodward and Bernstein discovered that Nixon's top aides had approved funds for the break in Nixon continued to deny that he'd lead had any knowledge of it but nearly two years later a Senate investigation and special prosecutor forced the president to release tapes of conversations recorded at the White House revealing that he had been lying the whole time beginning within days of the Watergate break-in Nixon had orchestrated vast cover up of the scandal he had personally squashed and FBI investigation into the break in and I paid the Watergate burglars to stay silent about the White House's role facing certain impeachment Nixon finally resigned on August ninth nineteen seventy four and Gerald Ford became the thirty eighth president of the United States that had been one month ago since Nixon's resignation Bernstein had walked into the post each morning hoping to hear the news that the former president was being indicted now that would never happen after a moment of silence silence. Woodward asked Bernstein if he thought Ford and Nixon had made a deal. Maybe Nixon had only stepped aside because he expected a pardon. Bernstein thought Woodward was being naive. Of course there was a deal. This was the final perfect corruption of Watergate dozens dozens of Nixon's top aides and advisors were going to jail over the scandal but the man behind it all would never be held accountable. Woodward reminded Bernstein that according to a nineteen fifteen supreme court decision by accepting the pardon Nixon was technically admitting guilt old sure said Bernstein technically but it wouldn't stop him from denying any responsibility for the cover-up just as he had all all along there wasn't much else to say Woodward asked Bernstein to let him know if there were any more developments and then hung up for a moment. Bernstein sat staring at his typewriter since they'd started working together two years ago talking to Woodward had helped Bernstein clarify Fayaz thoughts but now he wasn't sure how he felt. He was still angry to be sure but he also felt somehow lighter. Berry sussman poked his head out of his office shouted at Bernstein. The editor wanted to know if he had time to take on a developing developing story. Bernstein grabbed his jacket. Maybe Ford was right that it was time to move on for the past two years. Watergate head had hung over Bernstein like cloud coloring everything in his life. Maybe it was for the best that it was finally over. There would always be other stories to chase coming up. We'll discuss Ford's just occasions for issuing the pardon and the the political ramifications that followed now back to the story during his address to the nation on September Eighth Eighth President Ford explained his decision to pardon Nixon by saying he believed it was the only way for the nation to heal from the wounds of Watergate. He also said he believed that. Nixon and his family had suffered enough. Whatever his intentions the fallout from President Ford's decision decision to pardon Nixon was immediate and intense his press secretary biographer and close friend Jerry Ter Horst resigned in protest later that day within a week of issuing the pardon his public approval rating had dropped from seventy one percent sent to forty nine percent. Many Americans saw the pardon as a statement that the president of the United States was above the law others suspected that there had been some kind of corrupt deal between Ford and Nixon one month after issuing the pardon Ford was called before the House Judiciary Committee to explain his decision responding to questions from representative Elizabeth Holtzman he stated. I was absolutely lutely convinced then as I am now that if we had had an indictment trial conviction and anything else that transpired after this that the attention of the president the Congress and the American people would have been diverted from the problems that we have to solve and that was the principal reason for my granting the pardon despite his insistence he'd made his decision with the best interest of the country in mind. Ford grappled with a suspicious and hostile public for the remainder of his presidency in nineteen seventy six when he lost his reelection bid to Democratic challenger Jimmy Carter. Many political commentators cited the Nixon pardon as the moment Americans turned against the President and Washington Post Reporters Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein were among those initially actually infuriated by the pardon several decades later their opinions on the matter of changed considerably in a two thousand eleven interview on MSNBC'S ABC's morning. Joe Bernstein stated that he had come to see Ford's decision to pardon Nixon as the right thing to do and an act of courage courage today. Many historians have come to a similar conclusion in nineteen seventy four the United States was facing a flailing economy Konami and was still mired in the Vietnam War as well as the Cold War with the Soviet Union Americans were understandably exhausted from two years years of Watergate without Ford's pardon they likely would have faced at least three more years of a highly public and divisive investigation nation and no one could predict how the country would react to the conviction and imprisonment of former president in two thousand one. Ford was awarded the profile in courage award by the John F Kennedy Library during the award ceremony Senator Edward M Kennedy said that time has a way of clarifying past events and now we see that President Ford was right his courage and dedication to our country made it possible for us to begin the process of healing and put the tragedy of Watergate behind us for more information on Watergate check out the episodes episodes of conspiracy theories as well as the espionage episodes on deep throat which all covered different aspects of the Watergate scandal. Thanks for listening to today in true crime. I'm Vanessa Richardson. If you enjoyed this episode you can find me hosting the PARKAS originals serial killers cults and not guilty among other shows today in true crime is a podcast original. You can find more episodes of today in true crime and all other podcast originals goals for free on spotify not only does spotify already have all of your favorite music but now spotify making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like today true crime for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream today in true crime on spotify. Just open the YEP and type today in true crime in the search bar at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing gene reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at park cast network. We'll be back with a brand new episode tomorrow. In in true crime today and true crime was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media and is part of the podcast network it is produced by Max and Ron Cutler sound design by Kerry Murphy With Production Assistance by Ron Shapiro Paul Muller Maggie Admire Carly Madden and Travis Davis Clark this episode of Today True Crime is written by Andrew Kelleher. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

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Uncovering Boston's Hidden Gems, From Sacred Cod To Sneaker Stores

Radio Boston

22:17 min | 4 months ago

Uncovering Boston's Hidden Gems, From Sacred Cod To Sneaker Stores

"Support for radio boston. And the following message come from the peabody essex museum presenting the pem cast conversations and stories for the culturally curious from meditative art to the origin of sea shanties. The pem cast expands your world. Find it on your podcast app. Or at p. e. m. dot org all right so the first holiday weekend in our new normal. Is this weekend just around the corner so we want to know greater boston. What are you gonna do. Where are you gonna go if you need ideas. We have just the thing for you. We have two guests who know the city inside and out from fake vikings. And there's such a thing to a sneaker store hidden behind a vending machine. Heather plow and kim window are two local travel writers the authors of the new book. One hundred eleven places in boston that you must not miss and headline. They're not all in boston. Heather kim welcome to radio boston. Thanks for joining the show having us. Thank you and listeners. We want to hear from you. You have a sneaky favourite hidden spot around the city or the region that you wanna share. Do you have questions about oddities that you think your guests might know. Maybe you're looking for advice on where to go. Call us one. Eight hundred four two three eight two five five. That's one eight hundred four to three talk. You can also tweet us at radio boston. Okay i am excited to dig in. This book is chock full of really cool stuff right off the top. One of my favorite things is the fake. Viking memorials heather who knew we had that. Tell us about them. Well i will say that. I did not know that we had that. But actually wb you are did and you guys should give a shout out. We're one of my resources in this. So a a writer. A journalist named megan mcginnis wrote a piece about the mcguinness. Yeah two thousand eighteen. And i used a lot of different resources but that was one of them. And i feel like i should give credit where credit is due but She's appreciate that so There are a series of memorials to fake alternative history. I guess That boston has which was sort of started in the eighteen seventies where some very wealthy folk including baking soda magnate Under wrote An entire series of monuments Ah tower in western mass. But in boston we have a statue of leif eriksson on the common mall and in cambridge a marker for a house where leif ericson supposedly lived in one thousand eight but didn't didn't at all so kim. Let me turn to you for a minute. Because i'm looking at the book it's page one ninety seven. There's this picture of a cod. I got the biggest kick out of this. The sacred cod at the state house. Tell us about that. Yes so actually. This one was also heather. She wrote the chapter so she can speak to it more than me specifically. So how do you want to or do you want to tell us about one of yours. Yes sorry so my favorite ones actually the puppet free library which is all. This one's very cool. Yeah chapter ninety in the book. It's a kind of hidden tribute to the lost art of puppetry. It's actually in the basement of emmanuel church In back bay and it's run by a puppeteer named sarah pd who she actually trained and performed with bread and puppet theatre if you've heard of them You basically go through and allison wonderland like door. As i mentioned in the chapter. And it's kind of it's by appointment. Only since it kind of doubles. As her studio. And for several years she had an informal practice of lending out puppets to people in the community to use them for events Which she still does today. But she kind of formalized the process of signing them in and out hence the name library. So they're used you know in parades like honk fast Throughout the year and some of them are just huge twenty feet tall and just really cool to see all right. Let's go to the phones. One eight hundred four two three eight two five to either ask a question about your favourite regional hidden place or share an idea. We're going out somewhere or not all of us but many will this weekend step outside and try something new. What do you recommend they try. We've got an online. And i think you're in the car and foxborough right. Yes i am. Thank you I just would recommend it's outside the city but a wonderful place to visit that allowed people. I don't know about the fruit lance museum and the whole complex in harvard massachusetts. Wonderful place for people visit. So it's a museum and open space in. is that right. Yeah yes it is. Isn't it has a A shaker museum. As well as the fruit lance themselves visit utopian commit community that was started by lisa a male cup father and some of the other transcend cranston. and it's. It's a really nice place to have a picnic and they used to have concerts. I'm not sure what they feel. Right right thanks for the recommendation. And i appreciate it now. There are more calls coming in. We'll go back to them. But heather is still think that is really cool so now that we've heard about the public museum which was on my list. Let's come back and talk about this sacred cod at the state house yeah. I'm happy to talk about this. This was sort of a weird oddity. That i really had no idea about the super excited to find out about it so i guess boston lake other places in the world. But the the Cod fishery is like critically important to boston's culture massachusetts culture in general and so there is a giant more than four foot long. I guess maybe probably almost five foot long wooden fish like very super hyper realistic. We painted hanging in the house chamber in the massachusetts state house. And it's not the first one that's there now. There have been like an official cod since seventeen eighty four and the cod itself like has had some kind of major trial To get us to the current cod including One that was burned down and one that was called napped by the harvard. Lampoon were also in our book The the charles river was dragged in in search of that one before it was returned. And there's trouble. I don't know i'm assuming they did. The police dragged the whole charles river so But i i think the most important interesting thing to me about this is that there are a ton of ritual surrounding the so like when the cards had to be moved from one place to another. There's a a sergent at arms carries it on. Its escorted with messengers like a coffin of american flag over it and there's a ton of legislative paperwork and committees who talk about how the symbols to be moved so they really just a beautiful thing that we've decided to put like the labor fisherfolk i Centralistic way all right. Let's go back to the phones. One eight hundred four two three eight two five five to share your hidden and favourite place. Let's talk to andrew and brookline andrew which got There's a secret garden in harvard yard behind out library and The only way to get through it. You know how. Harvard yard is surrounded with these brick and wrought iron walls There's a door. A piece of the wrought iron is hinged And you can't really see it unless you look closely and it's usually padlock but sometimes it's not and you you hinge that open. There's a little path that takes you back to this card and behind the library and I'm told that mark halperin author of winter's tale and he was an undergraduate at harvard us to sit back there and And right place. You can find some peace and quiet. Well that sounds lovely and these are the fun things to go. Look for the andrew. Thank you for that. Call so heather in kim another one that i just found fascinating and i don't know which one of you wrote this one so you can tell me and talk about it. Who's gonna tell me about the bodega because that was kind of incredible. Yes so Bodega is basically a sneaker. Speak easy and it's also you know A secret kind of passageway i love. I love kind of secret and hidden places. Definitely drawn to them When when researching for the book so it's basically a convenience store facade though you can purchase convenience store items there and you go through a fake snapple vending machine to get to this Super curated really cool. Sneaker shop they have no sign edge. It's all really word of mouth advertising. They've relied on they've been there. I believe let's see probably close to fifteen or sixteen years now And even if you're not a sneaker head or super into sneakers it's definitely worth checking out. So i gonna ask you. I mean i notice in the book the only picture we get the bodega part not the secret. Part behind the fake snapple vending machine. If sacredness secretively right is part of their cachet did they. Okay i guess they must have been okay with being in the book. But i thought that was a little bit interesting. Yeah that's true. yeah. I our photographer. Eliza kind of worked her magic with a lot of the places that aren't necessarily typically You know accessible to the public right away to get some of the shots which was also really interesting so i'm not sure what transpired. Or if they didn't didn't want her to get back there for the shot but you know. I think that's part of the fun so listeners. We're talking about secret places hidden places surprising places down secret passageways. But maybe this weekend you're just going to go back to one of your favorite places. Maybe it's the ducklings maybe it's the swan boats it's park in lexington or concord. Where you're gonna go this weekend. Where do you think other people ought to go one. Eight hundred four two three eight two five five one hundred four to three talk. That's the number so You guys talk about now. The omni parker house which was the historic parker house. Hotel which really has a deep history. I knew a little bit about it but you surprised me with some pretty famous revolutionaries who have been on the staff there over the years. Talk a little bit about that one. Yeah this one falls in my pile again This was i mean. I've had some pretty close contact with omni parker house in the past and distill took me into depths that i had no idea So starting i think in terms of revolutionaries in nineteen eleven hoochie men worked in the kitchen there and you know left behind a marble countertop. That still used to this day. I'm sorry but we have to stop. I'm sorry ho che-min cook in the kitchen of the omni parker house. Yup incredible. sorry i just. It's amazing and then we also had malcolm x. Did a little bit of stint there as a busboy and And then a lot of famous chefs and writers have spent some time there plus. There's a few ghosts ghost okay. Don't stop after the word. Ghosts does little more about that well. The most prominent ghost is harvey parker. Who founded the hotel and actually he had. He's very kitchen focused person So who's in. The kitchen does matter in the culture of this hotel. I think but also i should say that the omni parker house is the longest continuously operating hotel in the country Because i don't. I don't know if people know that but think so it was founded by harvey parker who is famous for the parker house. Roles it's also the place where the boston cream pie was invented. And he had once had a cafe and they turned it into a hotel and apparently he still checks in on guests on the tenth floor can make sure that they're comfortable and happy and enjoying their stay his control against apparently rooms the halls from time to time to yes and dickens actually Wvu are we do a reading of a christmas carol every year. He did a reading there and there is a mirror in hallway. There that supposedly is the one where he would practice when he was going to do a reading. It really is quite incredible. Economic christmas. carol was there right at right and don't want well I think the. I think the mirror is there now. Yeah so. there's a lot of a lot of dickens lower loading around that area so cool one eight hundred four two three eight two five. Join the conversation. Peters got a place to share peter's calling from west and go ahead. Peter i there. I've tried this place is really great. It's called bed-and-breakfast float. It's the place to stay on the harbor in invoked article. Yes it's it's. It's at constitution marina a fun way to spend the weekend there you go. So what about the other kinds of things we liked to do on the weekend. Heather and cam like eat out or see a movie Do you have favorite places for those things in this book. we do. Have the specifically midnight showings at the coolest corner theatre with Which just reopened. I believe Last week or the week prior And that's one of my favorite places to see a movie personally just the history there And the you know was the shot in the book we have. One of the theaters is just gorgeous. So that's one of my favorites. How good i would say for movies I it's not quite the season for it. Yet but films at the gate in town is sort of a really special way to see a movie and they haven't done it since two thousand nineteen because of kobe. But it's been going on. Since two thousand six i think and And was founded by. A group is no longer base in boston. But the the Asian community development center still runs it and it's curated by an amazing like historian of both film and martial arts so there are kung fu films and you bring a folding chair and everybody eats like takeout food while they watch the films and scream along and you know like clap for the heroes. It's it's a completely unique way to see a film. It sounds fantastic so communal and isn't that remarkable that we've been so separated now for more than a year and we're beginning to be able to think about having some of these communal experiences again. Let's go back to the phones here. One eight hundred four two three eight two five andy's calling and e. You're calling from boston. Harbor area yourself Tell us what you want to share. Their two places. One is outside of boston in rockport. It's the paper house the entire house which was built around nineteen twenty or so with made by ruled and shellacked paper. The owner of the house was an engineer. If everything is made out of paper including the piano the grandfather clock all the furniture inside the exterior everything is made out of paper and the house is still there. It was closed during the pandemic. But i mean. I went there as a kid with my parents and i bring friends. They are all the time when they come to this rockport. That's in rockford. On pigeon cove in rockport cove road And the second one is the villainous schule which is the oldest standing synagogue in the city of boston. It's right on phillip street and beacon hill and it's part museum and part working synagogues still So but it's on this residential street in this beautiful neighborhood and it's just a little tucked away but it's a gem and the museum part of it. Tell the whole history of the end which at one time had as many as forty synagogues in it and the ville new zealand wants still standing. Thanks for those andy. Those are hidden gems as well. Andy thanks for the call. I'm going to grab another call here From sarah and jamaica plain because it has to do with the parker house. Sarah go head. Sarah are you here but yeah can you hear me okay. Now i can't go ahead okay. Yeah this may have been mentioned already. Because i came late into the story. But maybe not when. You're talking about the parker house but there's also in the dining room I don't know if it's on it or not. But i don't think they'd let people sit there Corner table where. Jfk actually propose to jackie Can't who became jackie kennedy and that's where he That's where he proposed to her and all right. Thanks sarah the and and and having. Kim you guys have something to say about that right. Yeah there's a little bit of controversy about this issue There is also a restaurant in dc that claims that this is where This proposal is made so pretty deeply into the archives and the microphone. Shefa jack kennedy library and we have been unable to ascertain which is true. And then there's also third theory which seems also very plausible based on just the time line of the news reporting. Which is that. The proposal happened by phone or telegram while Jacqueline lives in. I believe rhode island with her fingers. Newport rhode island. Yeah with her family so we can't. We can't do that one but we can go. Ahead and claim provenance in the region at the very least descending certainly in my second in row yet had many many many meals at that table so excellent so sarah. If you're still there does that change your mind about how cool that table is to know that. That's actually a story in disputants. No because even if he didn't do it this more than likely that they had dinner there at some point. So you know whether you did the proposal there or not who cares. It's significant and there are a lot of significant sites in boston. Obviously have to do with the kennedy. So you know. Actually i'll take. I think if it was. Dc maybe more more than likely 'cause she was working as a reporter when she Initially originally met him. that's how she met him. She was doing an interview but you know it was some time before he proposed and she was actually engaged somebody else. She broke her engagement in order to marry him. So yeah sarah thanks. Thanks so i. I want to note. Marquees neil our engineer in parasol stem. One of our producers want to throw in their favorite spot. Which is the area four arcade in the back of rock seized on mass avin cambridge between kendall and central square. It's a great place to check out. And walter wolfman neither one of our producers says swim off the pier at the charlestown navy yard on a really hot day. He says it's fantastic and the harbor is very clean now. All right so Heather in kim any place. That didn't make it. You wanted to put it in the book but for one reason or another. You didn't yeah for me. That's actually norman. Eleven hall park and post office square in the financial district. It's such an oasis in the middle of the city. And when i worked downtown. I used to go there frequently. you know. There's a beautiful Cupboard traumas and fountain and it just feels kind of worlds away from the city. And i was really kind of sad to part with that but i think we. We probably had too many parks and green spaces in the book already. So what about you. what's yours. I mean i have so many but i i really. We weren't able to include the mirabella pool with just a city pool city owned pool. That is has this beautiful. It's in the north end and it's got a beautiful view of the atlantic ocean. Kind of just out over it and You know very very cheap to get a membership very cheap to go with day pass and it was under construction and we didn't know the final Completion date at the time of publication. So we describe it and But it's a beautiful place. And i hope people look for it in and swimming it all right so before we let you go. There's one more that i just. I just have to ask about got about a minute left. And it is the memorial or lack thereof depending on how you look at it. to king philip's war. Yeah This was a risk we took. I think to include a few sites that aren't quite places But i think this is important because you know. The colonial history of boston also includes Some colonialism that oppressed and and harmed many other people so king. Philip was a lead a rebellion in the boston area and was assassinated. It was a year plus long rebellion was assassinated and kind of drawn and quartered and Parts of his body were hung On spikes in boston common for many many years so there is a movement to have a memorial for him There is actually a gravestone for him in rhode island. But there's a movement devil memorial for him in In boston comment and for now we send people to spot where a lot of other native americans were hung To to sort of reflect on the history until there's a formal memorial so and to know. He was a member of the tribe right alice. So many rich and interesting and fun and serious places. How kim wyndha- authors of the new book. One hundred eleven places in boston that you must not miss and you convinced me on all hundred of and eleven of them. Thanks to both of you for being with us. Thank you so much. That was fun.

boston parker house leif eriksson heather Heather plow kim window Heather kim harvey parker megan mcginnis sarah pd allison wonderland massachusetts charles river Harvard fruit lance museum boston lake Cod fishery
35. Fredrik Logevall on John F. Kennedy

This American President

57:56 min | 8 months ago

35. Fredrik Logevall on John F. Kennedy

"Support for this. Podcast comes from progressive. What would you do with an extra eight hundred dollars. Buy a plane ticket paid on your student. Loan treat yourself to those shoes. You benign with progressive. You could find out drivers who switch and save save an average of seven hundred ninety six dollars on car insurance get your quote online at progressive dot com and see how much you could be saving national average annual car insurance savings by new customer survey who save with progressive in two thousand nineteen. Today we have a special guest. His name is frederick logo. He is a professor from harvard university. He's lawrence belfer professor of international affairs at the john. F kennedy school of government. He won the two thousand thirteen pulitzer prize for history for his book. Embers of war. The fall of an empire and the making of america's vietnam which is Really one of the most read on that subject and he's now written a book on one of our most iconic presidents and important presidents of the book is called jfk coming of age in the american century. Nineteen seventeen to nineteen fifty six and that book covers basically much of his life up until about four years before he ran for president professor logo. All we're very pleased to have you. Thank you for your time and being able to share your insights with us. Oh i'm so pleased to be with your thank you for having me one of the most interesting things about your book is that you use president. Kennedy's life and his life span as basically a lens. Kind of like a window into what was happening with america and americans foreign policy especially with respect to its its rise to geopolitical dominance. And you point out that he was born in one thousand nine hundred seventeen the year of us entering a world war one and the soviet coup so did president kennedy ever noticed that that he ever talk about kind of the significance of his birth. And what led you to use this approach. Well i don't know that he ever spoke at least to my knowledge specifically to the fact that he was born just a few weeks after world war one started for the united states. The us entry was just a few weeks before. I'm guessing that he did. He was a he was a student of history. It's one of the seems in my book that he had a kind of historical sensibility. And i think in the second volume which has yet to be written but which will cover his presidency. I think we'll see some evidence of the fact that he had this historical sense and that it mattered. I think what what mattered to me or what. I thought that. I wanted to do and have tried to do is to tell. His story is a remarkable life story. But also as you say Map onto it the story then of america's rise to really great power status and then superpower status because in this respect his half century of life a little bit less than half a century is pretty stunning when you think about it because again as nineteen seventeen the united states is kind of a member of the great power club but as sort of junior member of that club if i can put it that way and by the time he dies. This is the greatest military and economic power that the world has ever seen. How did that happen. I think we can better understand that story through kennedy's story and it's fascinating because essentially when you make that connection you show how the seeds are planted for what he'll be dealing with as president in the actual year he's born and i thought that that was very insightful. Kind of something that you pointed out. Yeah i yeah. I mean i. I'm glad to hear you say that. I do think as i was drafting chapters or maybe as i was kind of laying out chapters it did occur to be one day. Yeah one can do. This one can one can Date quite independent of this project. I think i would date the beginning of the so-called american century really from nineteen seventeen We also have the bolshevik revolution as you pointed out earlier. I mean remarkable events that occur just at the time he's born and i could describe that to the reader as we then go as begun begin marching through his life saying right and one thing i thought was very interesting. They're often when people look at his father and they talk about their been books written about his father and some of them. Are you called the sins of the father and the ideas that he kind of made his kids in his image. But one thing that you pointed out that i think a lot of people haven't thought about was that he while his father was such a big. You know important person in his life he was his own man and i thought that was very interesting. Now what was what kind of father was he did. He kind of facilitate that in in president kennedy or did he was that just an intrinsic to kennedy himself No i do think. His father helped to cultivate that that sense of independence ironically enough because he was a very powerful figure. Joe seniors We often refer to joseph kennedy senior because it was joe junior. The oldest child supposed golden childs and we can talk about him. But i think that the father One of his great traits Complicated figure problematic figure But we're going to focus on his positive attributes one of them. It seems to me is that he never insisted that is kids sons or daughters follow in his In his footsteps in the sense of a career career path a world view. A view of politics. he really did insists that they could take their own path. It's nevertheless interesting. It's one of the themes in this first volume that jfk the second son proofs. Oh so much more willing and able to take his own path to be his own master than was excuse. Me van was his older brother. Joe junior really interesting difference between the two brothers in this regard because joe junior Ever willing to separate himself was father his father's us really till the end till he's killed in world war two and you talk about how president kennedy was much more introspective than his father. It was just kind of a. That was a trait that he had. Yeah i think so. I think i think in this respect. He was a bit more like his mother is like i guess. All all of us are to some extent zero. You know we're we're both our mother and our father. And i think in this respect jack was a bit more like his mother. He was more of a reader than his father was. he had A greater sense of history. As i suggested before kind of interested in the world that i think came mostly from his mother and i think also. This more introspective side. This more reserved side that he had I think his father was more abundant. His older brother was also more like his father. In that regard jack somewhat more shy Somewhat more reserved as you were saying And that's more of the mother's side. I think coming out right now. One of the things that i thought was interesting. So people have talked about. How president kennedy was was not a very serious student in college. And yet he really. When you in your research shows that he really became his own person intellectually and that he was a serious student of world affairs. He was very intellectually curious. Was there any turning point. What kind of led him from being to kind of coming into his own intellectually. It's a really good question you know. I think that there is a certain turning-point but it's all in all come to that but it's also the case that we do see evidence of this from an early point because he's sick a lot as a child and is often in debt. Misses a lot of school He becomes a ferocious reader. Shows an interest in serious political questions because he's drawn to history books books on state craft especially european And becomes fascinated by these important questions concerning warren peace wide. Wars begin hard. We end them. That's there from an early point. Nevertheless is not a very serious student. you see flashes of his potential. But he's not particularly serious. And i think the turning point comes probably in his junior year at harvard. Maybe even turning point is too strong because what we see his junior year. He said he begins to apply himself. He's done on some travelling. He performed better in classes And then it's really as a senior at harvard when he has to write a senior thesis which becomes his first book. That's that's when the turning point is can been completed if i can put it that way. Maybe it's a kind of long the takes takes about a year. They can never take that long right right. I thought it was fascinating learning about his trips to europe and you talk about his trips in nine hundred thirty seven thousand nine hundred eighty nine. I mean the these years it's fascinating because these years are so studied and yet to imagine a young twenty something john f. kennedy kind of picking up knowledge. I it's pretty fascinating. So what did he see during that. Time you mentioned. He actually did some diplomacy for his father. I mean what. What was that like. This is a part of the story. That i don't think has been told that much iphone complete interesting and i'll just interject your by the way that the materials at the kennedy library. Just down the street from where i'm speaking to you now Are so good and the letters the family road load. They were really good. Correspondents in this period so you have so many letters From the kids to their parents and vice versa and then diary entries when he has these So this part of the story. I think is great. I think he learned He was fascinated by the developments in european politics. The war clouds were already beginning. I think to gather he and his good friend lem billings and thirty seven of traveled in many of these places that would later become the heart of the war and so they included a stint in germany which i write about And i think what we see is a young man. Twenty years old at that point who is not only interested in these affairs but Making i think premature judgments about them. And interestingly enough season more complex world A more crowded world than does his father and then of course right after that trip or soon after that first trip and thirty seven his father becomes bad acid or to to to and is a sort of arch appeaser. He's very supportive of never neville chamberlain efforts to avoid war. And even after the begins. The father remains this opponent of us intervention. And that's what we see this separation between father and son which ideal deal with at some length But that comes in part from these trips. That your that your Asking about the trip in thirty nine Just stunning he's in berlin about a week before the war begins and i opened the book about actually that little vignette and learns a great deal on those trials. Yeah that's amazing and you talk about how he initially did have some of the isolationism of his father. It seemed that that was kind of the default position of most americans and yet he begins to question this and this in many ways kind of parallels with president roosevelt was doing at the time educating america towards a more internationalist perspective. How jfk make that transition himself. Yeah other good i am. I think it's it's little by little. It's partly through interactions with his professors. I found it pretty stunning in my research that the harvard student body steeply isolationist overwhelming numbers of harvard. Undergraduates would say we have no business fighting this war. This is after the war began. So this is thirty. Nine and kennedy's last jackson last year at heart. We have no business fighting this war. We should prepare to defend the united states that we should certainly not intervene in this war. Professors i think are much more apt to say no. No we need to aid the bridge in the french and it's necessary we might need to fight and i think it's partly through. His interactions with these professors is own. Travels that we discussed his own assessment of the power politics that causes jfk. I would say certainly by the spring of his senior year so when he's just filing this scene pieces to really shift in a way that's quite fundamental and then i think it continues right up to pearl harbor and by that point. He is confirmed intervention before pearl harbor. Where his father is not. It seems like his father seemed to encourage even if they didn't agree on that issue. He still encouraged his son to kind of you know he didn't. There wasn't any tension in that respect. They're not there wasn't and i think he's already so ambitious for both of his sons. Let's remember that by forty one say early. Forty one so before Pearl harbor his own. Political prospects are basically shot. Because i think i can show other shown. The joe senior wanted to be president himself the first catholic president while because his his ambassador ship was so disastrous. I think he understood by early. Forty one that he wasn't going to get there. He was not going to get into politics So now began to focus on joe junior in the first instance and then secondarily Jack and i think i think you're right. I think that he he understood that. His own Ripley isolationist position was joe junior opted to maintain what was not necessarily the one that jack should follow that in fact in terms of his political future it might make sense for him to be a bit more open a bit more in tune with where fdr was and works or a prevailing sentiment was by forty one And certainly did not stand in. Jack's way when he separated from his from him from his father so as we know. President kennedy was a war hero in world war. One thing i thought was fascinating was a the way. His military experience impacted his foreign policy views and his views on using the military. And both of these have important implications for later on when he's president. So how did how exactly did that affect his views. Did that experience. Yeah i mean. It's almost a kind of contradictory pair of assessments. If i can put it that way. Because on the one hand after his experience in the south pacific in the solomons Including a remarkable. I would say her roic. Effort to helps sick sukru after their boat was rammed by japanese sunk by japanese destroyer But i think when he comes back to the united states at the beginning of nineteen forty four. A pair of on the one hand. I think he skeptical about military force on the use of military force. And i think he has been less than impressed by the decisions that he's commanders in the pacific have made and also to some extent by the broader The higher up decision making strategic decisions that have been made and i think he will for the rest of his days right up until dallas in sixty three. I think have that kind of those misgivings about about military force. Used to solve political problems but on the other hand second conclusion that he draws not entirely contradictory but its intention with the first one. Is that the united states. Must be a world leader in in terms of global politics. It must commit itself after the war ends whenever it ends. This is nineteen forty four inch thinking. This it's gotta be In a leadership position in international affairs working in concert with other nations. He's always a believer. I think collective security. But it's got to be an interventionist activists united states because the future of the west of the nation's in western security is going to depend on that. I think those are the two conclusions broad conclusions that he draws ming. If there's a third one that he draws from his wartime experience is a certain amount of confidence that he john f. kennedy has leadership potential And can't perhaps step into the arena himself in some fashion. I do think that the his his experienced commanding these Fellow sailors Is important for his own kind of electoral development at his conference. And i thought it was very interesting. Many of the people of his generation that served probably with him or in in world war two ended up becoming those leaders. Those military leaders the generals that he presided over as president but they had different view of military force than he did. It sounds like the. I think to some extent they did. I mean some of them might of in nineteen thousand five. Sure if we can trace their views they might have shared some of his cynicism some of his skepticism about the decisions that had been made even though the war was of course ultimately successful. But you know being career military man I think they did see things differently. And as you point out this'll be something. I deal with in volume two at key points in his presidency in his abbreviated presidency He would come into conflict with these senior military officers about respond. Maybe most notably in the cuban missile crisis in october nineteen sixty two so that is part of the story still to come And vietnam of course and vietnam. There were differences. I think with military leaders about what should happen vietnam This is the part of the kennedy story that i've probably written about the most previously but in volume to any indeed in volume. One indochina as you know anderson to the story but in volume two in particular on and a half to sort out what kennedy sought to do in vietnam. What were his hopes for that policy. What he believed could actually happen. And where things stand when he died in late. Nineteen sixty three so Two topics that The public has learned and talked about so much since he died. I his health Second just his his love life essentially and so much has been written about those topics. What did you discover about those topics that may have been missing in scholarship since well. I think that the health problems that he had really throughout his life or real the most important one of his ailments was the addison's disease wasn't initially diagnosed. He was ultimately diagnosed in in the late. Nineteen forties with that illness by british doctor. Actually who said you've got addison's disease and treatments were becoming available to make addison's disease more more manageable. You could survive it so. He benefited from from advanced in in medicine at about the time. He was diagnosed. But i do think that those ailments that he had from a young age of wide variety of them shaped him as they would shape any of us. I think on a on a on a positive side. I do think they made him more empathetic. He could put himself into the shoes of other people at least in cognitive since In ways that i think mattered So they affected him in that regard in a different way. Maybe they didn't affect him as much as some previous scholars have suggested some previous by arthur sub. Suggested what i mean by. That is that i find it so striking the he could campaign if we just look at the campaigns for a second in forty six his first house race in fifty two is i senate race in sixty of course running for president. I find it so interesting that And remarkable really that he could go sixteen seventeen eighteen sometimes maybe even twenty hours a day on his feet. Campaigning often door to door knocking on doors in boston. In in that house race for example or in the senate race not complain about it he would often. His aides would be exhausted. And there's jfk. Still willing to do more. All i mean by that is that you know we shouldn't. We shouldn't assume necessarily that. He suffered in terms of his ability to be the driven fellow. He became do the things that he needed to do to try to to win he was he was driven. Any was ambitious with respect to to the womanizing It's an important part of his life. And i show that in this first volume it will be an important part of the second volume You know here. He was in many respects. His father's son Seeing women more as objects than anything else objects to be conquered not always on their lots of exceptions to this that i talk about in the book but that's a feature of of and he's is not faithful to jackie either before their wedding or after so if i'm going to say that he's empathetic in some areas. Here's an area where he's not empathetic. he's not able to see how this might This must be perceived by his own his own wife But no question that that is. That's part of who is no question right and from what you write. It seems that the two women that really stick out our inga. Arvada and of course jackie and There's something about those to kind of stick out above beyond the rest. Obviously with jackie since he married her. So what about those two were different in his eyes. I think you know. I think he thought that they were both beautiful so that's one point. More important i think in terms of the the depth of is is love for them. Both is that he found them interesting He found the mini often in life. Both men and women had relatively little patients with people that he couldn't talk with who who not interesting people. He was fascinated by both of them. and inga's intelligence her facility in multiple languages. He thought was just was absolutely amazing to him. her sense of humor. I think the other thing that these two women communists that they're both very witty. Jackie was to the. She had a kind of absurdist sense of humor. That i think he kind of shared and he respected and he loved the fact that jackie could speak fluent french and was excellent awesome. In spanish she could get by german. He was terrible with language. And so i think the fact that these women were anything by. I think just appealed to him a lot And i think both also had a certain love of gossip least sometimes like to talk about other people. He certainly loved to gossip so there was that that they have in common. They're also s- lots of things that with jackie in particular he didn't have in common so one should also talk in terms of their relationship and marriage about the fact that they were in some respects quite different people And both in volume one but more so in volume to still to be written I'm going to delve into that. I have to talk about the nature of that marriage. Its strengths and its weaknesses The evolution of it. Because i think it does evolve that as you point out. These are the two i would say. The two great loves of his life. So president kennedy being a democrat in some ways he falls into that democrat internationalist type of thinking but at the same time you get the sense that he was an independent thinker especially when it comes to foreign policy. So what did he think about wilson and fdr and truman. That's the great democratic presidents in his lifetime. The major ones. And what did he think about their Types of progressivism and their types. Their thoughts on internationalism. Yeah he was. There's a lot there is a really good question He was a committed democrat of course throughout his career. Probably don't need to state that but it's worth at least underscoring i. He was ultimately very much in the heart of the democratic party. If i can put it that way in terms of his own positions A centrist broadly. Speaking on some issues he was quite conservative on fiscal issues. For example he was quite conservative on foreign policy. He was really as i suggested in the book and i think showing the was an early early cold warrior But i think if you look at it. Sort of broadly speaking. I think he is in. The heart of the democratic party is quite liberal and other positions with respect to these presidents. i didn't get the sense. This was somewhat surprising to me. Actually that didn't get the sense that he connected in any kind of deep way with fdr which is only surprising in the sense. That fdr was president for so much of his youth growing up his early sort of adults years at his father worked closely for a long time with fdr. Then they had a kind of falling out so that may account for the fact that i don't think jfk ever felt that connected to roosevelt. But i do think the broad outlines of the deal which truman then of course retained. Jfk fully endorsed fully accepted. The idea that governments fundamental role is not to help those who have a lot already. It's detroit to build up those. Don't have much. It's to try to to to support those who are tougher position. That's one of the core functions of of the federal government. I think that that's something. That kennedy completely embraced. So ultimately i think he follows in. The tradition lay down in particular by fdr she are. There's also a kind of wool sonian to go back a bit further. There's a will sonian. Quality to kennedy's foreign policy is idea that united states has has to play an important role in leadership terms To make the world. Safe for democracy as wilson would have put. That's also there so all three of these democratic giants before he himself becomes president I think leave their mark. I think he comes to respect. Harry truman even though i think initially he's a little skeptical in state forty five when this unknown relatively unknown missouri politician becomes all the southern president. I think he's a bit skeptical. We on that. Truman has what it takes was not alone in that some and there's some friction between them later on. I think treatment is a little slow to warm to jfk. To be quite honest this deal more with him too. But yeah even truman. In his own way. I think kennedy sees himself as following in a certain sense at least upholding elements of the fair deal and continuing the new deal policies right. It's very interesting. Because he when when he looks at the cold war and kind of formulates. His views on containment he. He focuses a lot on the third world and lonely elation and those kind of things. How did he get interested in. How did he start pointing that out as a major element of containment well. I think it's a it's it's fascinating to me Richard in that he is. This cold warrior is really sharply critical of the treatment administration on certain issues for example. He's inclined to believe those or or to agree. With those who say that. The truman administration loss china At least is critical of the administration's handling of the chinese civil war so there's that aspect of it and yet somehow over course of maybe a year or so nineteen fifty fifty one. He begins to say. I think to himself and to others. Wait a minute. This cannot simply be about communism versus anticommunist that as we as the united states becomes more involved in world affairs. We've gotta give people in the developing world. These former former colonial or in some cases still colonial peoples colonized peoples but who are working to try to get independence and freedom. We've gotta give them something to to to believe. Got to meet them where they are. He says time and again. So he becomes interested in and knowledgeable about decolonization and the efforts underway in that direction. And i think is broadly supportive. And what's ironic about. This of course is the outstanding example in some ways indochina. He travels to the far east in nineteen fifty one with his brother bobby and his sister pitcher and among other places they visit is attack the phnom hand. He sees what the french are doing. He's not impressed. Doesn't think that they can win. I opened my last book War that you kindly mentioned at the outset of our discussion. I open embrace at war with the kennedys in vietnam. What's ironic about. This is that he asks all the right questions about the french and what they're doing is appropriately. Skeptical that they can beat chee. Men's revolution and yet a decade later as president is going to oversee unimportant expansion of us involvement against that very same revolution. If you will And that's the conundrum. I guess that in the second volume of this biography. I'm gonna try to sort through. Because i think he is in many respects still the same he has. The same view is fundamentally intellectually. And yet he's making decisions that seem contrary to to those views fascinating story. Yeah that's going to be quite a project to sort through looking forward to that. What what was he likes legislatory. I think you quote his sister eunice saying that at times he wasn't super engaged but at the same time this was his political schooling before becoming president what was his tenure in the senate and the house and the senate i think. He was not a particularly notable legislator I think he was pretty impatient from day. One in the house to to move on or maybe that's a slight exaggeration but certainly he had his eyes on the senate from an early point. I think he you know he realized what many first time congressmen and women realize. Which is i'm one of four hundred and thirty five people. i'm the low person on the totem pole. Here it's going to be years maybe decades before. I can really make any sort of difference. So i think he does not really apply himself in a Energetic way to a lot of legislative business on the other hand he picks moments. He shows that he has an ability to affect public debate. I think from an early point it becomes more and more able as a as a speech maker in terms of giving lectures he becomes a better orator He's popular among his colleagues. Because i think he's a respectful in personal terms. There's a kind of graciousness to his sort of one on one behavior. And i think all of that matters and i think in the senate in particular where he feels more at home it's it's There's more decorum in the senate and that appeals to more old school it's more tradition-bound. I think he likes that more. So in that sense it's not the legislative stance but it's in terms of being a ultimately ineffective member of the upper chamber I think he acquits himself quite well. Now again i'm stopping. The book stops here in fifty six. This first volume. So it'll be interesting to see as i get into fifty seven fifty eight and us. He's running for president if my assessment changes. But that's that's how i would put currently so one thing that's been written a lot about. His senate career is the whole situation. Well house and senate. Is the whole situation with joe mccarthy and it's well known the kennedys have a lot of ties with mccarthy and he kennedy gets criticism for dodging the issue. What would you find out about that issue. That maybe hasn't been talked about much. I think this is. I could have written so much about this. I just found this totally fascinating. I think that you know a few things we could say here. One is that mccarthy is close to the kennedy family. This was something that surprised. Me the extent of this When i when. I got into the research. His father in particular joe senior re the likes mccarthy even likes his attitude is antics. His is his demeanor. the kind of aggressive side of joe mccarthy I think. Joe kennedy. Just sort of lapse. That up bobby kennedy. The younger brother. We haven't talked about him yet. Bobby also becomes close to mccarthy and in fact mccarthy takes out a couple of kennedy sisters on on dates so the point is he's pretty close to the family. I'm not sure that. Jfk himself ever feels all that close to mccarthy because he the sort of senatorial good manners. I talked about a few minutes ago. Which kennedy prides himself on and believes a really important mccarthy. Of course doesn't have. I think he thinks of mccarthy as crude bully but he's also not willing to really distance himself from mccarthy because this is the other point to make. There are a lot of irish catholics in massachusetts. Jfk does not wanna get on their bad side. and so he kind of bob's in waves on mccarthy. I would argue for too long. I think he never really comes out in firm opposition to mccarthy Even in fifty four when the senate votes to censure mccarthy and he's really now by now on a downward slope kennedy is really not willing to to. He's not willing to cast a vote for censure. He's in the hospital at the time but he could have instructed his eight to ten sorenson to register vote in his absence in in in his absence but he chose not to do that. And he he said plainly that he wanted to dodge this particular issue. And as i think as a result richard he. It caused problems for himself with liberals in the party including eleanor roosevelt That will dog him in a really up till nineteen sixty annakie made. He made life harder for himself Through his as put his bobbing weaving on on mccarthy. But it's part of it's part of the second red scare in the united states of the thing that i would just add here quickly is that i think as an ambitious politician kennedy understood that what would respect to communism and how to treat the soviet union but also communists potentially within the united states the safe political the savvy political position is to be on the right to be hawkish be aggressive So there's that element of too. I think our kennedy thought. It was better for himself to stake out a position That was quite uncompromising with respect to both foreign and domestic right. And you just brought up his brother bobby. One thing i thought was interesting. You mentioned i think you you wrote something to the effect that is his brother. Bobby was actually a lot like their dad. Joe senior in many ways. And how was that the case. What was his relationship with president. Kennedy how did it change. Yeah we should remember that. They're pretty far apart in age. So at eight and a half fears. Different between Jack and robert. Bobby so when they're little and i'm i'm eight years younger than than my brother in ten years younger than my sister so i have a sense of what's involved here When they were little. I don't think they were particularly close. And there's also it's also a huge family so there aren't as many opportunities for them to really get to know each other. He's playing with joe junior most of the time. Probably that's right. yeah exactly. And i think that You know joe. Junior is kind of surrogate father figure. He's often the one that the younger kids including bobby spent a lot of time with more so than with jack but i think when they have a trip together this trip i mentioned before nineteen fifty one over many weeks. Twenty five thousand miles that covered on that trip. I think they really bond and jack comes to see that his little brother is intelligence is dedicated he's going to be loyal to the nth degree He's cheerful. There's just a lot of attributes that he sees. Maybe for the first time in bobby And then the next year when he runs a for a senate seat and has this epoch. Victory which i write about at some length in the book against henry cabot lodge incredible in some ways one of the one of the perfect senate campaigns in at least modern american history It's bobby who takes over a floundering campaign. He's twenty six years old and he takes charge of this thing and shows to go back to the other point. You made some of the same attributes that are often attributed some of the same attributes that of that joke joke senior is thought to have bobby can be ruthless is determined. He's not concerned about niceties. He's not concerned about you. Know diplomacy his only eight. Mm is to do whatever helps his older brother whom he worships. Basically when this when this senate seat. That's all that drives bobby kennedy and he's really effective and they become really close. He's kind of like your your dream campaign manager. Basically the guy you want in your corner completely. I think that's exactly right and of course. Come nineteen sixty Jack basically that bobby has to be really involved here. And i'm going to rely a great deal on him and and so he will so we will do so. There have been accusations that profiles encourage about the level of authorship. He had he. Had you push back against that. So why do you think that this has become a controversy. And what did you learn in your research on this. Yeah i think. I think profiles encourage became controversial only because it was awarded the pulitzer prize in nineteen fifty. Seven headed not won that prize. I don't think we would be talking about this. I think it was common at the time for politicians to have help on their books in fact it was route and even then for there to be lots of assistance on these books but because it won this prize understandably There's this controversy. And i don't think by the way that it should have been awarded that prize so when i push back against some of the arguments made about profiles encourage. It's not so much that. I think this was An important work of history It was fairly thin in terms of the research. At least compared to other is winning books of this kind. The rioting i say is is kind of average or at least it's and miss in part because it is a kind of committee product where i pushed back though is on the notion that jfk at minimal role in the enterprise that this thing was just written for him mostly by ted sorensen and by two or three professors Yes no question that they were involved. No question that the case studies that form the the bulk of the chapters were mostly drafted by sorensen in particular. But i think the evidence is pretty overwhelming like present. This evidence that sorenson was too young. Twenty six was at the time to have any sense of what the themes of the books should be. The architecture of the book The main arguments of the books to conclusions I think he had as he said himself. He had really no clue about any of that. So the those are all. Jfk's i would also say that in terms of the introduction and a conclusion which are the most important part of the books and i think the ones that matter the most historically kennedy is on in involvement in those chapters was terrific was was very significant. he was principal. I would say on those two and then we also have evidence that in the middle chapters the rest of it He is throughout a heavily engaged. That's where i push back a little bit. i think it was a collaborative effort And it would not like a book that it is without kennedy's heavy involvement while by the way recovering from this very serious surgery that he had in the late. Fifty four So he's doing this partly on his back in florida in recovery with sorensen's assistance and also by the way jackie's assistance. We don't often talk about the fact that his wife. Jackie helped out in certain ways with respect to the book that i were important So you write about the famous story of young congressman john f. kennedy young congressman richard nixon. These are thirty something year old men. You new generation. They're taking the train of pennsylvania What what happened in that instance. And what were his relationships. Like with the future presidents with johnson with nixon. Maybe even with ford. Well he you know one of the things that's interesting at broad series that he is. He's not very partisan in terms of his relationships. And maybe this is a lesson for our very deeply partisan moment today The age in which we now live. I think it's useful to remember that. It was not always so and so one of the things that jfk did is a kind of salon in georgetown home. When i became a congressman and various lawmakers were come to the house for dinners long. conversations would have been great to be a fly on on on that all when those conversations took place the point is he had as many republicans at those dinners as did democrats. And i think that's something we see really throughout his career is that he's not a he's not deeply partisan in that sense I think with respect to nixon. He respected him Excuse me from the time that they come to washington together. He says one of his aides. Keep your eye on that guy. He he stolen places so he could sense that nixon was going to be a formidable player. This incident that you mentioned is when they travel to pennsylvania to to a small town near pittsburgh and have a kind of debate. Congress us to do that in those days. They had a short of traveling kind of road show. Lawmakers will go out into various parts of the country and Speak public forms and they debated basically the labor legislation labor rights. And i was more or less a draw. I think on that particular evening but then they took the train back to washington together and even shared a A sleeper car can imagine. So you've got these two presidents to gather one in the upper bank one of the lower bunk. It's pretty interesting. And they talk for much of the night and so i think they have later. I think they're relations will sour When they when they face off against each other in nineteen sixty although there's even then level of respect between these two presidential candidates that i think is notable would johnson. I think it's a complex relationship but i do think that johnson is critical to his victory in nineteen sixty. That's something i'm going to talk about And you know. I don't think at least as of now. I sense particularly close relations with gerald ford per se but but the nixon the nixon ties in particular interesting in this period now it yearbook ends in nineteen fifty six. Obviously that's the year where he Really starts to break through nationally. Why did he run for the vice presidential slot. And what impacted. This have going forward on him and his career You know his father didn't wanted to run for that slot as father said jack. This is a disaster. You're a bleep bleep. Idiot for doing this. He basically set joe Because he was pretty certain that if he became adults stevenson and it was clear the students a be the nominee by this point. Joe senior felt if you become stevenson's running mate you're gonna lose is gonna lose regardless and they'll blame it on the fact that you're a catholic and your career might be finished jack. While he again defied his father he decided he wanted this nomination He he became a kim so close to winning it. I think it's a very dramatic story. That i tell toward the end of the book when stevenson decides to leave it up to the convention. Open it up to the convention to decide on their white vice presidential slot and as a result you have one of the most dramatic certainly dnc democratic conventions For the last say seventy or eighty years. I was really tense. And he came up just short which for him in the end was a plus and the reason it was plus. It is because he was a star of that convention. Jack kennedy was now a household name in a way that he had not been before. Senator kennedy With the whether beautiful wife was eight months pregnant the time she would actually have a stillbirth shortly after the convention. It's another story but the point is he came out of that convention because of the speeches that he gave because of this vice presidential contest as the new face of the democratic party. And i think it did a lot of good. I think it helped convince him later. Fifty and this is. Why end the book. That i'm going for the big prize next time around and and by golly i can do it. I'm in a position ear. Even as a catholic maybe in part because our catholic to claim the democratic nomination for years from now. And that's what he then set out to do but the point is that this effort to become stevenson's running mate in some ways couldn't have been scripted any better from his long-term political perspective. It seems like going for the nomination but not getting it so you kind of have the best of both worlds right you get the attention of running but you don't get the blowback of losing in the general. Why did he think it was worth it. I it sounded like he. I think one would have to imagine that he felt eisenhower would have been very hard to beat. But why did he think it was worth it way. His father didn't. You're good to your good to press on this. Because i think that's an important question Because he couldn't have known in hindsight we can say oh he had this brilliant insight that this would happen and this would happen. And then this would he have known that and in fact he wanted that nomination very badly to get it And you know came came up short. I think he. Department was just sheer competitiveness All the action in fifty six was on on this question of who's going to be stevenson's running mate. He was mentioned as a candidate. And i think it kind of wet his His his competitive appetite and so part of it. It's just that this is where the action is. I one in on the action. And then i think he said quite revealing as in a letter to his father that i quote. This is probably june of sixty six. He said if nothing else. It's good to have my name churning up in so many words to keep all of this churning. I think is what he said. So some part of him thought while regardless of what happens I need to be in the discussion about the vice presidential slot. If i get it maybe we can win even if we don't I think i can overcome any kind of stigma that is attached to the fact that i was on the losing presidential Ticket i think that's that's his basic conclusion but there's no question that is again and that in fact at the time i think. His father's position was probably the sounder one politically than his own Before they knew what's going to happen he may have also been thinking of the example that president franklin roosevelt set being the losing nominee or the in one thousand nine hundred twenty vice president still ended up winning in nineteen thirty two so that might have born actor then. He was a student of history so he might have had that in the back of mind. It's a point So l. Ask one last question. And not wanting to do any spoiler alerts or anything like that but however far you're into your second volume what is it starting to look like in your head as far as what it could end up being. Well it'll be it'll be a long book Looks like we've lost a bit of It'll be a long book. because of even though i'm only covering seven years in the second volume it's nineteen fifty seven obviously to the end to assassination and late sixty three. There's a lot to do. And i'm going to devote a fair amount of attention early onto this long campaign for the presidency. One of the secrets of john f. kennedy success as a politician at all stages is that he starts earlier and works harder than his opponents. So there'd be a lot they are but of course. Most of the book will be The campaign in sixty and then of course the presidency itself. And you know. Richard i need. I need first and foremost for the archives to reopen. I'm not able to dark. In the doorways of of various archives around the country most notably of course the kennedy library right here but also others. I so we're looking at that at and then obviously obviously writing the book itself. It's going to be with me for this is going to be with me for a few years. Still but the good news is. I'm having fun with it and this ambition that we talked at the outset about which is detail not only kennedy story but america story I'm looking forward to continuing that in volume two. That's wonderful and i'm looking forward to that and the book for our listeners. It's called jfk. Coming of age in the american century. One thousand nine hundred seventeen to one thousand nine hundred thirty six. By frederick logo vol professor logo. We appreciate your time and just being able to talk about your your research and your best best wishes with the book. I'm sure i mean it's a great contribution to kennedy scholarship. Well you're you're kind to have me on him delighted to know that you're doing this podcast and and to be part of it is is a privilege for me. Yeah thanks so much. This american president is produced by myself. Richard lim and michael neale. If you like what you've been hearing you can help us by leaving us. A five star review on apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to our show. We are proud partner of evergreen podcasts. Checkout evergreen podcasts dot com for more shows you might enjoy. i'm richard lim. Were back next time with more this american president.

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Roger Sametz -143

On Mic Podcast

26:09 min | 1 year ago

Roger Sametz -143

"Two on Mike with Jordan rich first and foremost. I hope you're doing well. I hope you're safe. And we certainly hope and pray for all of those who are battling Kobe. Nineteen and for all of the frontline healthcare workers doing amazing job. We all oh them. A huge debt of gratitude. I WANNA focus on this podcast in with several more in a series A. Not Justin how we're coping with the current pandemic but thoughts and ideas and creative directions. We might need to take when we come back and we will come back today. We're GONNA be talking about branding. Why is that important? Well businesses everywhere are shut down and branding and rebranding will be critical to the recovery. Joining me is the CEO and founder of Samos Blackstone Associates boston-based brand focused strategy content design and web consultancy Rogers sandwiches respected nationwide working with cultural organizations research corporate and professional and financial services clients clients that include the Boston Symphony Orchestra the Lyric Opera of Chicago The Sydney Symphony Orchestra Harvard Medical School. Mit Sarah Lawrence College. Brigham and women's Hospital in so many more he also writes and speaks widely on brand building messaging and design. So I invited soak up some creative wisdom energy and ideas from our guest today. Let's go on Mike. With Roger. Salmon's Roger Welcome. I trust your well and safe and doing as best as you can in these circumstances. How're you doing fine? I'm actually currently out in the Hudson valley watching the Turkey chase deer around the field or worse things to do and worst places to be At any point in time well thanks for joining us. You know we're GONNA come out of this in some shape or form still to be determined as we record this podcast. But we're going to focus the importance of branding on developing the brand and more than ever on on sharpening and and really refining the brand and being consistent and being so you've been in this business a long time how is branding changed in the last couple years. And how is it changing right now because of what's going on well? I think there's probably a little more consistency in the last couple of years. We go back a little bit further because we deal with a lot of arts and culture organizations and a lot of educational organizations you know brand was kind of a nasty word that was way to retail associated with all star busts Suburbs on toothpaste tubes or something or you know the thing on the back of your jeans or Bachelorette car right. You know it's up to be just retail. And then everyone decided they needed to have so schools have one certainly every politician needs to have on but I think that that certainly changed but I think the mistake in all that is that you can just go get one and our approach certainly over the for decades doing this is that you need to evolve your brand and needs to be authentic needs to come out of who you are what you mean what you promise what people can expect of you what you can expect them your value and values and while you can actually define some of that in a conference room it doesn't exist until it gets into the heads of your constituents. The deeds are important. The actions that people take well. I think you know how that then gets expressed Is through if you're saying a nonprofit organization Arts Organization your content and offerings. You know what what are your programs. What are your products? What are your services your behavior you know? What's your customer service like? How do you treat toners prospects and then importantly You know the communications that you make so those can be print that can be digital humping social environmental so. Those are the communications. You can control that then influence the ones. You can't control like social media from some other channel you haven't been expecting so people serve think about content behavior communications. They can control influencing the other ones based on the sort of attributes that they want to have associated with the organization in other words. You know if you're an opera company in people think you're stuffy you would like to probably not associated with stuffy. So how can you communication sort of manage that or workers from the country that you know people think everybody there is old or maybe you have to dress up so if you wanna be thought of as innovative and You know a cool place for date night. Those are attributes that your communications would have to or card to associate with you. Which with Rogers? Sameth's he is an expert in. This area has been working with organizations. And we'll talk about some specifically for for decades now and helping them develop their brand in their success. I mentioned the word consistency and I want to get into more detail in a second but consistency is so important in radio or I`Ma born frequency frequency over and over again reminding people who you are and what your messages that holds true would imagine for any organization looking to expand and strengthen their brand. Well sure in so far as you know if you're making an email you're making your brochure. You're making a website. You have social media to the extent that these different vehicles reinforce each other which goes back to your work consistency in every dollar you spend on communications Israeli buying you a buck thirty in recognition an awareness and comprehension. If the stuff doesn't go together every bucker spending is giving eighty cents worth of communication. And then you have to work harder to understand who you are and why they should give them so. Consistency isn't just a you. Know a concept for the for the hell of it. It's a it's a way to accomplish your goals. It is April twenty twenty as we sit down together with a lot of separation. You're in New York coming Boston None of us have ever lived through anything like this. The economic impact is just unwieldly. Let's put it that way at this point. We don't know how it's going to unfold but y. Are you focusing on brand now more than ever? Kobe nineteen language. It's it's so critical. Why I think you know. Lacking some of the ways that people could make content and contact people brand becomes more important so you know a couple of examples. I mean students you know. Rising seniors couldn't take the usual spring trip to go look at schools Default can't sit in a concert hall in the sort of overwhelmed and feel connected. You know you can't have the in person events that you had you had so brand then becomes very important in decision making whether the tickets that you bought for concert will be donated or whether you you think you're gonna ask for your money. Back has a lot to think about an organization you know. Will the donors come fill the inevitable financial hole because they feel connected to what your brand is and what it means you know or not You know we'll people stay or become advocates for your organization. You know even if you're taking more corporate sphere now if you're an online shopper. And you're looking for something quickly I was looking for a crescent wrench yesterday I want to spend a lot of time. But you know given the choices on the lows website craftsman still meant something to me whether or not it should something else but in bought and sold a few times but you know so. Click craftsman crescent wrench. If I was in the store I made you know. Pick up the thing and really. You're make a different decision but brand was really dictating my decision. Let's talk about some of the folks you work with. And WHO's getting it? Right in your estimation particularly the new arts area. I also work with folks like the Boston Symphony. And that's one of your clients with how. How are they doing things to keep the fans if you will and the clientele involved and connected? It's really a challenge. But what are they doing right? Well obviously they have you know in-person now become trans screen or something like that. Yeah onscreen You know I think all the you know all of the orchestras are certainly finding ways to stream content that they have but they're also going beyond that I mean they'd be. So has a series where they're showing what you you know. The members of the orchestra do at home in some of them are not playing violin. They're doing like dance things with their kids. So they're building connection that is in consistent with music but not necessarily the same thing you know a thousand museums around the world doing virtual tours at some of the more creative ones are doing things like. Let's do a tour with the security guard who's been standing next to the sculpture for like thirty years. What is what is he out. So you know you can. You can develop a sense of intimacy and connection If you try some different things that otherwise wouldn't happen as you. Just you know. Walk through some Cavernous Museum People are certainly pumping up their educational offerings. So you know W GBH also client. Who Lead in children's programming has set up a distance learning resource center because certainly not every parent out there. Who knows how to do home schooling? So they're giving them and teachers resources. some arts organizations are setting up more interactive opportunities? You may have read about the getty on the West Coast. That's asking people to use household things like peas and carrots and whatever can openers to to recreate works of art and in Cincinnati. So there is an opportunity even though. You're not in person to do some things that are actually pretty personal and to remind people why they were connected to you in the first place and people do reflect. Remember very strongly when when things happen that are crises or unexpected and organization. Step and do. I'M GONNA put quotation fingers around this. The right thing and then there are examples in the news where organizations like the Kennedy Center. And you can maybe site that get bad press in a bad feeling arises after what happened with the Federal Grant Money Again. I think examples lead the this discussion. Branding WanNa talk about the Kennedy thing. And why was I mean? It can be summed up in a headline the Kennedy Center. Got Twenty five million dollars Your mark partly because Manja Trumka's board chair on the board or something and then while that money elsewhere and other organizations is helping those organizations to keep people on the payroll they immediately furloughed seven hundred people so putting bringing this back to brand house that could make other donors feel. How's that GonNa make people who might have donated their tickets? Feel it being terrible stewards of this. Beneficent that he got or you know to get stay cultural beginning through the prophet side of things Ticketmaster basically said if you had tickets for shows being canceled tough luck you know. Lots of other organizations have said well either. Move it out when we have performances. You can donate it if you want your money back okay. They they gave choices or something. I read just this morning in the Times. REESE WITHERSPOON. Have this idea with her clothing. Line she said we're gonNA teachers are working really hard or get a donate dresses to teachers and you have to sign up and this could be some sort of raffled. Whatever she didn't give the number so I got a million people who signed up they had two hundred and fifty dresses so it was perceived as you know as a cynical marketing ploy which was and you know it probably long-term brand damage but at the same time there are so many organizations doing it right in one of the things you talk about in the notes. I'm reviewing is a staff that you employ for whatever organization it working as you and I are from home and why it's so critical now more than ever right now to To make sure that you're treating your staff well and you're communicating with them so they can communicate with the public expound if you will well there's certainly the possibility or the inevitability that communications will get a bit more disparate as people get dispersed. You know they're they're not in the office. They may not have their templates. Take their their little more on their own. So do the extensive Organization with its brand does a good job of providing dealer. Who were working remotely as we are you know with you. Know what are the attributes? We want to reinforce so that if you're writing a letter even if sort of tacked up on your bulletin board and you keep them in front of you. What is storylines and concepts that? We want to get across if you're talking to a donor or doing an interview or something You know what what are. Even if you're making emails. What our colors our thoughts. Of course you had. The organization has to probably provide those. But you can keep going back to your word consistency. You can keep a sort of unified brand presence if you've done some training and you provided some tools otherwise you're kind of asking for brand entropy and brand intervenes as you said at the top of this some point they're going to be another side of all. This you know brandon remains that you're going to have to start back several squares at at some point even if you haven't done any extra damage like the examples we talked about but just sort of you know pulling it altogether. Whereas in an organization that provides guidance and tools and training can can keep on going is a very important aspect all this that. I'm so glad you raise. And I'm a big believer in being judged by action and behavior in regular times in normal times. Oftentimes it goes by the wayside but when people are under pressure as we are now behavior becomes magnified. Let's talk about the positives when you when a company or an organization on arts group whatever employs the kind of code of behaviour that the public is really going to latch onto such a big difference can be named. We've already pointed out. You know you mentioned the Kennedy Library. I mentioned the Jacobs Brothers at the Boston. Tea Garden. Not Paying the folks who run the TD Garden. You know the boot purveyors right It took a while two or three weeks and that just sits with people talk about behavior and why it's critical brandon like right so I it it sort of extended we're talking about what they see Kennedy Center and Ticketmaster. Behavior is both internal and external. So how you treat the people who are partners staff as opposed to playing seven hundred at the Kennedy Center At how you treat the wider community again brand is made up of people's understanding of how you behave in the world so whether it's close as you know how you talk to a donor or a prospect and Relations are putting much more emphasis on that. In fact I can the Lyric Opera Chicago also a client of ours. Marketing people are being deployed to talk to people who have tickets to get them to donate back so they're essentially fulfilling a fundraising function. Because they're not you know going out in hawking shows because there aren't any shows but people are being put to new uses and they're all of course willing to sort of dig in So there's this internal and there's no external Certainly you want to behave in ways. That maintains contact So whether that means keeping people informed beyond covert nineteen information you want to come up with ways that they feel like you know. There's there's still part of the family so whether that means you know video chats or webinars or at a higher level the CEO is doing something special even hanging out. What I think is probably the most effective a handwritten note. His everybody's means the old school. That's old school but if you think about all of this in thinking about the brand more holistically yes. There are new shiny balls in terms of communication vehicles. That are out there all the time but if you bring back to what it's really all about which is creating connections and nurturing relationships there are lots of ways to do that that are not necessarily technologically based. I think we're seeing it with hundreds and thousands of healthcare workers who are going above and beyond in the line of duty but also are connecting with patients and their families by using a how many nurses and doctors have used their own cell phones for facetime ing with the patients and and those kinds of stories resonate with people. There's another aspect to this whole zoom revolution. All that's going on out of necessity and that is as you call them. The digital natives the generation Z. and younger millennials. This is an audience. That's already hip to this kind of technology in a sense. It's incumbent upon all of us in branding to recognize this group and realize we have an opportunity here to really fine tune this kind of approach in crisis in ticket on afterwards maybe develop a bigger audience right. I mean this is a group that you know all arts organizations are trying to get more of you know everybody moans from the stage of of whatever you see gray hair So if you're dealing with a group that's digitally native anyway and your tools are all digital and you can come up with content. That's often to way as opposed to just broadcasting at them. You know you may get them engaged so that they're actually going to try and go to a concert or goodwin opera because it was cool. I didn't know you know behind the scenes that you know. It takes wigmakers shoemakers and painters and whatever to put on an opera. Or It's the Combo of music dance and theatre and magical stagecraft I didn't know any of that because I was put off because I thought operas you know old inexpensive. I had wear Tuxedo. So there is an opportunity to use the media that we kind of have to use to engage people who are already engaged with the media with new content and for everyone out there asking them us the public. The consumers kind of what we're looking for via social media is a great vehicle. Isn't it? I mean you can gauge the sense of the public a lot easier now than ever before without having to Kyra polling group just by sending out the kind of social media requests to get information I would imagine. That's a big component. Yes you can do that beyond the likes in that kind of thing you can actually ask you whether And then do it. I mean if it's not inconsistent with your mission so there's a there's a two way interactive nece and some were getting more interactive than I mentioned the getty example asking people to make artwork with cans of beans and stuff. But there's a way to break down that audience stage wall that we as you said we could then learn from going forward. Your work in this area is going to be vital people in your field trying to help rebuild not only arts organizations but non providence profit businesses. Where do you see yourself you months from now when God willing things get better outside and we can actually visit with each other albeit a few feet apart well again? I sort of go back to the basics. Which is that. Some organizations have figured out and they've been inform you know their communications their behavior their content and then other organizations is certainly come to know. They don't have it figured out so there. Then there's a project that starts more at at at square one but you know if organizations are in crisis communications now. They can't stay in crisis communications right. They have to be delivering content. That's valuable and that connects to why people were interested in them in the first place or why people might be interested in them in the first place so you know helping them to come up with their attributes in their story lines and how they present themselves verbally initially is important. And it's going to be important. I mean there are plenty of organizations who way before this you know underrepresented under presented who they were. I mean it could be a great organization but if you get something on your kitchen table that looks like schlaug direct mail. It's kind of almost doesn't matter what they're doing. Because you know nineteen sixties direct mail. Is You know it's not a chevy. Bel Air you know. It's not cool in. You're probably not even going to look at it in especially with websites. How ended especially if you're younger. You know prospective audiences have a website. Behaves is as important as what it say. 'cause you know if you're trying to be innovative showing it you're doing you work. You're trying to get in younger people. And it's clunky and his jet ends and you can't get back to where you want to get back to. It doesn't move or whatever that's a message at that they'll never gets the words or the sound or whatever that's on the site. It's used in a clunky backward way so all of that you know both coming collaboratively coming up with you know what those components have. A brand are and then coaching people on how to use it. You know hopefully stays important or gets more important as we get over this because it can't be about crisis well in summation we're all subject to As consumers were all subject to the marketing of organizations and individuals but we as individuals can carry our own brand as well. You mentioned political figures. But I'm thinking about entrepreneurs single entrepreneurs authors. I mean everyone has the ability now to step out there and present brandon. These same concepts we've talked about would apply to the individual I would imagine. Oh absolutely I mean it's comes back to content and behavior. I mean they were examples this week and don't think it's probably probably named names of celebrities who have brands who were putting out the notion that no five. G. Cell Towers were responsible for the virus. it's hard to see how that's going to help their personal brand. Yeah but even go away from your coming around celebrities and stuff. There is a sense and it's probably people who are not as old as you and I are who think of themselves as having personal brands. I mean they express themselves. They dress how they talk with the hang out with with channel communications they use so the goal of organizations is to have a brand that resonates with those personal brand so that people can see myself as part of that family so it's the same thing that schools have always been doing. Which is the goal when you visit a school in the spring and talk to students and take a tour with the goal of that. School is for the student to say. I can see myself here. Well I can see myself here goal. You know equally applies to any arts organization especially if that particular person hasn't been able to see myself here and when you look at arts organizations writ large. Nobody has to go to a museum. Nobody has to. La no-one has to win orchestra. So the the job that brand that a strong resonant brand can help Jew is moved people from well you know. Maybe that's an okay idea to. I really want to do that and you can accomplish that and you really well. You've done a lot to fill us in on your philosophy which is born out in practical success for many many years Roger. Thank you so much and I know when things settled down her gear up again. You're going to be right there in the hunt helping. Harlan helping organizations who could certainly use it. Thank you so much for sharing with us on the podcast today. Needless to say stay well stay safe and keep up the great work. Well thank you for your time and interest. Find out more about the work that Rogers doing go to Salmon's dot com that's S. a. m. e. Salmon's dot com and to stay in touch with us. You can reach me. The email Jordan at chart productions dot com on twitter it's at Jordan. Wbz and on facebook. It's the Jordan rich show. We will continue to podcasts on a regular basis. Keep IN TOUCH. Keep content flowing and remind each other that we're all in this together. Thanks for subscribing downloading rating and reviewing the podcast and to all of you out there as always be well so you can continue to do good. We'll see you next time.

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The history of libraries from before stone tablets to printed books

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50:54 min | 7 months ago

The history of libraries from before stone tablets to printed books

"This is an abc podcast. While back on compensations. I read the great british author jeanette winterson and genetic grew up in the north of england with an eccentric mother to say the least and her mother strongly disapproved of her reading any book. Really aside from the bible and this is how genetic doesn't explained how she made her own library in secrets. When i was working on the markets i used to spend my money on buying paperback books. Bring him in. And if you've got a single bed standard size and a collection of paperback standard size. You can fit seventy four per layer under the mattress and of course my head was rising visibly the princess and the peanuts getting close to the ceiling and the floor. She going around with the flashlight. After nine o'clock she came in saw that the bed was there a door to perched on top and pulled a book and it was really bad because it was d. h. lawrence women in love so that was the beginning of the end. Mrs winterson was right to be suspicious of books. Because they're dangerous things you buy a couple of them and they seem to multiply almost without you knowing. And then you've got a library. Stood kells pretends to conversations. Today and stewart has brought his library obsession with him one day while back stewart picked up a very rare and beautiful book and that was the beginning of his own library and he's dedicated his life to the study of rare and precious books. Stewart's travel the world with his family to explore some of the most fabulous collections of books on the planet and he's written a book. Which is this lovely and delightful history of the library. And it's simply called the library a catalogue of wonders. How stewart harsh and hey going. Well thank you sir. Now just tell me the story of how you'll library started with. The purchase of this one book plays while i was already someone who went to book sales and and and trash and treasure markets and second hand bookshops. Those already probably primed to find something interesting. But i went to this book silat ten million university at trinity college and i was one of the first people to the door like the kind of you know take sales thing we bust through and soon as i went through the door i saw this all the were standings or spine upward on trestle tables as they do and i saw this nice leather morocco leather spine with double raised bands. Light kind of glinting on it across the room. And so i was there in a micro second in grab this book and it was bound with this beautiful full morocco binding but it was a bit of a mystery because it was anonymously published an anonymous offered and something from another world big was this book was at auto so it's it's about squarer than a normal sort of novel about the same sort of size and what was the title. It was called pieces of ancient poetry from unpublished manuscripts and scarce books and it was published. It was written by someone who's initials where the name of being was in why i thought well that's very interesting. And you turn to the back of this book and it actually had the disposition of the copies so where all the copies are gone and six of them were on blue paper and this was one of the six. What does that mean on blue paper. Who's actually printed literally on paper. So there's this part of the affiliate thing in the nineteenth century in particular is the having special editions and special copies. So there'd be the run of the mill copies maybe on a smaller page or with just plain white paper and then there'd be specials the lodge pipe copies or the blue paper copies all the you know the the stein colored paper copies with the pink pipe. Copies specially bound ones one's facsimile leaves inserted so part of the whole sort of debris mania was his flowering of different editions. And so this was one of the special ones and if you look through the subscribers people who actually bought these. It was the main who'd actually founded the roxborough Society in in england. They they were uber. Bibliophiles that with the lived for the book and it was a society that was founded at this incredible auction that the roxburgh sale and it included the The roxburgh to cameron. Which was this amazing edition of the cameron. There was the most expensive invaluable book of the nineteenth century. So these guys in their enthusiasm sit up what became the most exclusive bibliophile society in the world. And this book had a really strong connection to them and it somehow fetched up in millburn. And how much was it. Unsilent foil kind of wince. When i say this but it was it was three dollars. And and obviously i was quite happy to pay that to go back to my studio apartment living with my fiance. Who's now my wife and we've suddenly had this. Vip guest at our house and so we thought well. How do we look after this thing. Do we do we kind of put it in an archival box or is right to touch it. Should we do the the white gloves thing and researching how to look after that book and researching where it came from and it was an amazing journey to find out about that book and really opened up a whole world of and billionaire. And how should you handle such with white gloves. I'm definitely one of the handling people. Said not wycliffe and the way we think about these things now is actually really. It's gone full circle two or three times but the best sustenance for all leather bindings is actually the oil in your hands. So you should. You should fund handle the books regularly. And i do that. I have a large right now. And i actually go regularly around and run my hands over spines and pick things out. I haven't touched for a while. So yeah the white close things not that important. But how you're storing. The books is incredibly important. So avoiding big changes in humidity keeping the temperature k avoiding direct sunlight. That kind of thing when you saw the initials in why on the bulk initial thought was published in new york in the early nineteenth century. But ny identified the author but how'd identifies the terminal letters of his first and last name so the author was actually the editor he wrote the preliminary matter and then edited the manuscript content. Was john fry and he was a young bookseller in bristol at this early part of the nineteenth century and he died in his twenties. He died around twenty seven. That's intriguing and it is an answer this. Why wouldn't he identified himself as j. f. If he was going for initials. I wonder could question. And one of his lighter books and was also anonymously published and it's j. dot dot in if dot. Why not very minimus at but the reason why this was published anonymously us sort of pseudo anonymously was because it was body So sexy right. Wow so it's sort of ballads and poems from the time of shakespeare but there will be raunchy and not the sort of thing that you'd like to publish in the nineteenth century without getting into trouble so out of the story. There's just so much in that one story pick literature the other thing. That's might have moroccan leather. Which really needs to be handled. And you know this brings us to die. Suppose the thickness of books a librarian. She likes to many books at home and she says why. Don't you just get out of a library when you want them and return them and i said no no need to hand one. What do you think about all that stupid. Well i think a lot about it and and a lot of what appeals to me about books. He's that physical side and it's the sensation of ownership and having a connection with john fry. I tracked down a lot of his books after that i find. I think i've got the best john. Frankly in the world not. Many people are actively collecting john fry. So it's a free open field but beautifully bound at their. He's personality really comes through the books they beautifully printed. And it's a project to actually protect those books And you know it's it's fragile. Nature of graffiti the so many different tales halley printed. How they're bound where the copies of bain. That aspect of provenance research is incredibly important. And now has taken over your life a bit and it wasn't this. What's this library of rare books. You've got black now. It's pretty big. We bought a house from a chapel was bookseller and he had renovation which was specifically for the library. So it's got twenty foot tall bookcases and we actually took some of the bookcases out because it was. It was that bookish but the still around two kilometer bookshelves in how does that mean you have leathers. This flyovers mezzanines at cow. One of the main lund libraries at has these narrow tall kenyans and then every every floor. There's a sort of a metal slowly transparent at ledge and so it's it's really something else. It's incredibly great. If you're in the mid forty s. It's absolutely if you're one or if you're four and so i have two daughters who grown up with lots of baby gates and lots of no go areas. I love that idea that you can look at the library and sort of read the spines and read because of come from and actually know something about someone in the same way. I guess you can read. Someone's sort of kindle selection and say the same thing but go to housing you see the collection of books you can see a lot about the person either in the history of the world. Who's checked out. Someone else's kindle addition. And i i this twenty. You know you can't people's libraries and you do make judgments about them as a result that's another no that's terrible but the show them is fantastic library in place meant to read but haven't gotten around to reading the kind of thing that really they make these important statements about about who we are so he was. I seduced by watts library. And then she's pretty good looking with that was number one off that but it didn't. It certainly didn't hurt that. She had this amazing library. Yeah you have to be careful about that though because there are stories for example from from france about the aristocratic taboo approaching his death. You know he's looking back on his life and looking back on what is going to leave behind and he is terrible for comes into his mind on. People are gonna look at my library and it's terrible so he quickly sent out people to say build me a decent before i die so that people will think i was educated and you know the thing is that's how we wanted to be remembered but here is all these years later being spoken. Podcast is a fight that terrible terrible for what you just had respectable books board from that he'd never read. Easily debris falls have had that for a long time people. Walk into your house and say yes but have you actually read all of these books and saying well fumbled some. That's not enough now. i've scribbled audiobook. You'll caught my copy of your book steward. What do you think about that. I mean i'm you shocked into paul. I guess you famous so it of added to it. The definition i can't be famous. But but i've scribbled as you can see one of my producers just heights. The side of me doing this might have to do it at out of line of sight because he thinks i've desecrated something lovely but it's kind of helpful for me. What do you think about that. Whole idea of making notations in the margins and all of that is acceptable or unacceptable. Well obviously helps the earlier back. The comments are the more helpful it is but it's related to that point. We were talking about before around providence. A each physical book has its own story and marginal yet the pointing finger in the in the margin that kind of thing but this is kind of interesting in the history of libraries. Does this disconnecting values multiple values. There are people who a bit like me handbooks very reverently and thinking about how to preserve them and then there are other people who are completely unsentimental about the book. It's it's just a kind of a means of carrying dot or whatever and charles. Darwin was one of those and so if he had a book and parts of it were boring or not quite on his subject he would just tear it out and throw out. The other beats will give them to someone and keep the bits of the book that he thought were important and he would write extensive notes. A conversation with the author page. now obviously. That's incredibly useful. Now when you look back through the the the darwin material because you can see thought processes so yeah it can be useful but yeah the guys that sort of you know tables apart and the with just fragments of books and that's a big horrible. The closure was was. The chappie was behind the folger's shakespeare library in washington and he was vacuuming texts like crazy but he wasn't very discerning in the cons of books that he bought and so some of the volumes have been scrawled in by children. Some of them are just missing plays or missing preliminary preliminary matter and some of them are made up from other editions of shakespeare. So it might be sir. Forty percent of first folio and sixty second volume third failure. So you're in a pretty important. That's pretty unsatisfactory. I am with stuart kills. He's the author of the library catalogue of one this threat to spoke. He traveled all over the world with your family to look at the libraries. Some of these famous and beautiful libraries exist right across the world. What are some of the libraries. You went to and the like so. This was a grand tool. We did earlier this year with the one year old and the five year old interesting. Yeah and so. I think the some kind of points earned from that. Not just one points and yeah. We went through hong kong to to zurich and visited some of the major libraries in switzerland including sanguine which is just amazing Brock lobby which started off as an irish monastic library in dhaka ages. And is now this incredible Brock library constance and we visited some important libraries in london including lambeth palace library. Which is the sort of hate of the anglican church and and some of university libraries the british library but library in oxford into we had a wonderful tour of the bodleian and end saw some really important shakespearean content among other things and then we did a very big tour of america because americans do lobbyists very well. There's things that the americans don't do well But they do libraries incredibly well and so We went to boston and a lot of the important libraries in harvard. So boston itself has got a wonderful public library. And there's also the boston athem library which is wonderful but harvard has credible libraries including out and read books library. What what's the most spectacular. These libraries all the houten really blew on all sorts of wise the endowment at howard at the amount of money that to the bank really means you know quarter practical wide. They don't have any limit to how wonderful that libraries and got more money than a lot of nation states. Yeah i you know. Maybe i should send some of that town to some of our institutions. So i'm being they've got something like thirty eight billion dollars in the bank so if you had to kind of dream library what would it be like. Well a bit like the hat and it's a Sort of played install an english style building not very large. You walk in and this is wonderful. So the spiral staircase up the middle and branching off the staircase there these themed rooms and so one ramos. Same johnson johnson material and its first class johnson material but it's also furniture artwork and the fernie the actual physical rooms done appropriately for the period. The next room is emily dickinson room. And it's a herb oaks. It's artwork it's furniture. It's done in iraq kanna style and it's almost like a dream place and i went through there with the five year old and The the the librarians they were incredibly welcoming to her and to me and so she's she's been sharing stories around town That she was handling a book which was signed by shelley and inscribed to keats and americans do books very well but they also children's libraries incredibly well and so they'll they understand the role of books in awakening in children a love of literature love of learning so the hounded harvard was was mind blowing. Plenty others morgan. In new york is incredible and also two different ways. The library of congress. Everyone should library of congress. Washington is a strange place and we were there in the middle of some of the trump and comey stuff so it was a strange time to be there but the library of congress is such a united. It's an ongoing space. I suppose that you have to begin by asking. What exactly is a library. It seems to me like what you've concluded libraries in some books means really it's kind of a storehouse of of knowledge stories information belief systems philosophy. All that kind of thing your first library that you wanna talk about is a library in central australia. Tell me about this lottery and a lobby with no books. It's still has. This is talking about the sun lines and the air inter library in central australia which is a very contested library and also to wise The but a wonderfully rich and important library and I've analyzed that library in the same way you would think about a physical library. There was a physical counterpart to the song lines in the toronto stones and in the landscape and other aspects of of the first. Australians live but the stories were held primarily through word of mouth and through dance through song and that would curated that were incredibly palpable in part of life. They're incredibly incredibly important. Part of how the landscape was experienced and how generations engage with each other and there were there curated in in a very meticulous way and one of the tragedies of of the twentieth century study of those libraries. Is that there. Were there were Retrials and arizona curation that library the way that people came and probably thinking that i would study. Those lotteries actually did things to to damage that the lottery. Taking away the stein's and by betraying secrets and by misunderstanding. How that line. These libraries the like the one in central australia from preliterate cultures. Right across the world. Such larry's tend to hold all not stories but daughter as well inscribed into the land by the placement of things within the. I was talking about this with lynn. Kelly when she came on a while back. It's her belief that stonehenge stonehenge is a similar kind of thing. We're we're in the same area here. The people place things in the landscape and traveling through these monuments or objects or natural phenomena. That's the way you memorize pneumonic. Stay little memory drinks to help you remember these stories and then it becomes very important that these stories are remembered by route word for word so they passed down in tech from generation. So you don't have that chinese whispers effect where changes and so there's elaborate patterns of recitation. An elaborate tobu's about who can no water and how certain types of knowledge He's treated on thursday like this like dante the fruit from that push this one. He'll kill appropriately properly fun. What how we had to dig. And that's a wonderful example of that human connection between libraries and ourselves because fundamentally. Why do we have libraries where we have libraries. Because because they serve serve our interests we get into the ancient world we have the first physical books and in the libraries of book seen by says like mesopotamia egypt and china. What are the earliest books if you like. That's the word from made from talking about initially Books made from stone or clay tablets. The very first kleiber tablet libraries which are talking sort of three thousand b. See a little bit earlier. Were very humble. Essentially your store in solve financial records and who paid what to whom and who earned what But very soon after that you see the emergence of the first illustrated books again clay tablets but with with pictures and more and more elaborate wise of of fan of storing information and not long after that you see the emergence of hieroglyph ix and and the first and scrolls as well and leading obviously to some of the amazing scroll libraries in the classical world including great law. Burell alexandria you note that. In twelve hundred say the pharaoh ramesses sickened symbol to library of books of scrawls papyrus just. I'm just even trying to imagine what that library would have. Looked like when other materials as well there was stone. Books might from stein. Books made i think from from other other plant products even ivory. I think i'm so incredibly rich library. And a lot of the the classical library builders had very universe lambie visions. I wanted to actually assemble every book and every kandebow so misbehaving taming libraries had this ambition. The great lobby of alexandria was was sort of book. Voracious machine and so whenever ships would come into alexandria carrying scrolls librarians. The ptolemies would say well you know. Leave here and we'll send you a copy. We're not going to copy your version. We'll give you the copy of the original someone so in a ship would come into port into alexandria. Then then there would be an audit or order twice as someone like will soldiers from the faroe. Whoever's in charge of the time we go out to the ship take scrawls. Bring it to the library syncope spec and send copies back. They'd keep the original in the line. Evil people wised up to end. So there's only be and people would only be willing to send things to alexandria if there was a big sur bond gold bond state and but even then even the lottery would still take the take the scrolls and pay the bond. Lose the bond scr scrawls. You know they have that Has technology they work the way they were. i suppose. How would people read on those kind of like like polls on either end in these other rods and you could roll along but very very impractical and also because they're quite long sort of nine meters long or so thirty feet roughly and the with hundreds of thousands of as in the library of alexandria with curated they. Would we know anything about that or just sort of thrown into a gripe behave somewhere. Definitely word integrate be and we do know About the history of that library and how they were co curated so there were corridors niches in proto. Shell sweet have the scrolls. The scrolls were libelled But even then there was such diversity in such a multiplication of scrawls. There was a need for people to navigate through and to help people and help scholars. And so you see the first emergence of librarians. We know the library was destroyed quite famously. There's lots of different conversations and theories around what happened with And all of them quite moving and dramatic lots of different fires and were blind and then the story of keleaf oma taking over and saying well. This is the none of these koranic texts so we don't really need them. We can send them off and use them to to the bath waters in the in the in the bath houses which is which is a great story. What's most likely going back to our conversation around curation and around conservation. What's most likely is that they were fragile. Papyrus scrolls in a river delta without a painstaking program of copying and curation and conservation. They simply faded away. Oh my god you. The loss seems to require drama. Though doesn't it it's a requires a dramatic story dimension of a kyle four pagan revolt. Or something like that. But the most likely story is i just went. They just went looked after and they faded away. The thing on the at the story of alexandria is the side story in the back story. And so this this this and this evidence that there's a lot going on back and forth between the library and local booksellers local. Forgers and things refuted front brackets being run. One was basically skirling books out of the library to make unauthorized copies. And but also given that Appetite of library to acquire texts then unscrupulous entrepreneurs would commission dodgy aristotelian treatises socratic dialogues. And so here's this thing you've gotta have front and the lottery by them and for centuries after that scholars would take seriously so some a lot of what survived from alexandria are these bootleg copies and clandestine copies. You're listening to conversations. With richard a can change world. We come to the great storehouse of place much beloved by the city of constantinople now known as the stumble but was the second round the second capital of the roman empire which stalled a lot of those strolls and great works of of literature and mathematics and science from the ancient world in their own credit libraries. How important was that to your mind. The fact of constantinople stored these great works of the classical age is incredibly important and wasn't just storing scrolls actually and transferring content from scrolls too early empowerment and to codex books as well so when you said cut x. You mean like the book squarish with pages bound one side of it. In printed on both sides actually so after in the christian era and that book format gradually became dominant set people stopped relying on papyrus which had also issues. We've already talked about and instead instead used an animal skin pages text and in later on obviously paper mina standing of the great libraries of content police that their their function was primarily one of conservation of texts and help preserve a lot of things were lost. But the help preserve lot of what we now know from the classic period and that's a fascinating wipe pointing history where you've got this meticulous preserving and copying of texts that then nourish the renaissance. The first woman historian that we know of this woman anacom nina. Who was the daughter of an emperor in constantinople and she wrote a classic book called the alexia essentially about the right of father. And it's still available today. And she begins by writing as a kind of a bit of a humble brag she says i was not uneducated in the works of homer escalate and the great poets like she. She's clearly access to this library. And she's read everything and the way she writes about them. She is hume's that her readers aristocratic graders have already it to the stuff was being kept and read and was known throughout the middle ages in constantinople yes and then passed on afterwards to the rest of the world. Can you just talk a bit about how that happened. Well at the fall of constantinople. There was this incredible rush to capture the contents of the the great libraries and the imperial library and others and it was imperfect but a lot of texts to get through this wonderful stories of greek and italian scholars going to constantinople and one of them says that he he traded his clothes so he could take codicils back and there was something he wasn't ashamed of now. I don't know whether he was fully nude when he returned to greece so whether he just meant somebody's more expensive clothes book way. Yeah and so that. That moment in history really now reached venice as a center in the of greek manuscripts but also it really nourished roman and florentine and other italian libraries and ultimately and the rest of of western europe. So how we get. The renascent relief flickers into life at that point. Meanwhile throughout the middle ages in western europe western europe is really probably seen as a bit of a backwoods did have a dark age constantinople. How is knowledge preserved in the libraries and monasteries of western europe at the time end in in ireland and scotland particularly well. You're probably was really really was a dark age and all sorts of ways there were there. Were as you as you indicate. There were major libraries in the middle ages but they tended to be in these last world or in east asia in or in the byzantine empire in the typical monastic library of that period in europe. If you're lucky for large library there would be two hundred volumes. Nothing like what you see. In game of thrones or inverted echoes. Game the name of the rose where you see eighty eight seven thousand volumes and so there was this barely keeping the lights. On and one of the stories. That i love is reentry into almost a of scorched earth europe this re entry of irish scottish scholars and others and monks and sitting up monasteries sitting up libraries and helping to keep that tradition alive but in the light millages. And yeah this. We've talked about this difference in values and there's quite excruciating moment where you've got an italian scholars and others really understanding value classical ticks and really appreciating the need to copy and conserve. And then you've got this kind of almost neglect in some of the monasteries where books to sort of thrown into the bottom of sort of moldy towers and this hoary genre of classical scholars and humanists going into monasteries and discovering these these sort of young neglected texts and taking them back or bribing amongst to get the take sad order sort of putting them under their coat and taking them away. One of the things you show in your book. Is that the codex the book we read it now. The wind squabbled format with pages and binding. That comes in hand in hand with the development of the writing disc needs to that involves into the into the bookshelf. As we know it too with all the way right back to the beginning of books has always been this intimate relationship between books and furniture. So the way you would read a scrawl sometimes is you'd shove the roads into your desk and in kind of roll that way and the emergence of the codex form in light room in an early christian times was partly to do with the use of of square desks and then in those monastic libraries would have lichter because there weren't that many books so you didn't really need cases or anything like that you have the slide down on electronic scoring in a cupboard and then gradually towards the end of the middle ages and into the into the renaissance you have this multiplication of books particularly with the advent of painting of fm printing end of paper and and so this is wonderful moment of evolution. Where first of all you can raise the top of your electron disk and have a few more books there. And then it hits the ceiling as you add more shows and then you fill in the bottom and suddenly what what was a lectern and was sort of a holy place of of manuscripts limitation etcetera has turned into this little bookshelf. And then it multiplies. And you have these little book spaces within within. What what. I've become libraries. The paper and the printed book originated in china. Head of they make their way over into into europe from them. Lots of different ways. Through through through trade and through conquest they're primarily through the islamic world and through the middle east and in it's it's partly for islamic spine that that paper comes into into europe and partly through italy and around you talking sort of thirteen hundred fourteen hundred you start seeing and paper mills and it's really the the kind of That nas accident where printing and piper arrive in latter part of the fifteenth century the this incredible flourishing so the number of books and night in europe saying in a century after gutenberg was larger than all of the manuscripts that have been produced in thousand years before then the story of kind of quite tragic really in a little ways we meet berg bible good printing printing press. We must now the story of that It's it's essentially a refinement of block printing invented by the chinese. It's refined by gutenberg to move proper movable type but what happened to good berg. I mean eat spent years and years and making a viable printing press. What happened once. He invented it. Here's a gem cutter jewel and so you can see that refining happening because you so meticulous but as an entrepreneur. He's he's kind of a really interesting exemplar of two ways to fail and entrepreneur. One why he filed was essentially kit coming back for money and refining and refining And he had the chappie was lending. The money was was pretty mercenary. But also beware of your partners when when you're when you're entrepeneurship. Essentially the debts were called in Chauffeur and i and took over the technology and took over the project and gutenberg was out and ruined and then the next bible and the next bomb. The next didn't actually mentioned in at all. And it's not until i think fifty years later that he was acknowledged as the one who had actually made printing viable not quite invented printing been made it made it viable on a large scale. The vatican has got a famous library coming right back. We'll the white back to three eighty five. I d. that's before the fall of the western empire the roman empire. I mean because that far back in the. I think you say the book though its collection. Now come from much much lighter of that and in that of course. Was there ever a secret library in the fits stories about this but was there a secret and is there a secret library of books to for certain people for a long time access was hard in the library anyway but yeah literally. There is a secret archive. I mean all of the correspondence in the vatican. It's called secret. Archive netscape separately from the main collections. But my my sort of perception of the vatican libraries that as indicated is relatively new to product of the renaissance. And the enlightenment as much as it is from the early church but they always have had a at least a scholastic scully function and athos of excess and willingness to hold potentially problematic texts from the classical era and they're wonderful stories of discoveries of scholars working in the library and making secret discoveries prokopiev's takes to she will know Is is an example of that but also amazing letters relating to henry the eighth and others under a chair or between shelves so on one hand the vatican collections. And they do have this or off antiquarian and secret secret secrecy and exclusivity and on the other hand. The only make discoveries. Because you're allowed in there to have access you. You mentioned copious there. This was this was a history that he'd he was a historian rotting in the time of justinian. The great so this is early sixth century he was an historian that would been well nine for running quote respectful books about justinian and he's conceptual achievements as a proper court here and then more than a thousand years later in the seventeenth century. Seventy seventy six hundred thousand six hundred twenty a secret history of his was found in the vatican library which was which was essentially he would go home at night and pour out all of these hydrogen ball towards the emperor and the empress and rod scurrilous things like the the emperor was nine to be a creature citing he was seen walking around the palace he detached head and tucked under his arm. Was saying walking around herodes skyros things about the empress theodora suggesting that she performed naked a parody of leader in the swan which we should have a this. No one here been hard to explain but he he wrote the apparently theodore would appear naked in front of an audience. Lie down on tablet. Have a slave. Come out and and sprinkle breadcrumbs on the bathing suit. Area of her body and then trained geese would be introduced to the stadium. Which would then pick the breadcrumbs now when you read. You'll have to put in my book when you read that. I'm going to put this in my buddy who is just like tekken easy. It often walking around. This is a problem with these stories. They present themselves and their so bizarre and interesting. You can't ignore them. How can you resist a story with sixty gays and the most interesting imports of the history of that empire. But i just love the idea that these things have been discovered still like slipped between the catch it and couch cushions if you like. Oh under a desk some win and yeah it's it's the lives of stories the that fascinating. It's the scandal. That's the the mystery and the sense of discovery for me Fundamentally libraries are six places. Yeah because of the quiet and the personal side of it and that sensor of discovery in in my of searching for for interesting stories about libraries. It's amazing the number of people said they lost their virginity in the stacks or really differently and any librarian. He told he will say the mile high club. But it's it's league. It's the six one three point nine six club or something like that and it's an interesting to mention. Well i suppose if you're reading something above your feeling emotional intimacy. They're quiets staring all of that going on flirtation flirtation. That's right which brings us to these of these secret collections. That gentlemen in france and italy in the eighteenth century head of of erotic tracks. I want to these lotteries could actually get of this. This kind of illicit literature are. They're quite large and this this this. This is a huge aspect. Particularly in the printing era was a huge aspect of of from people awfully to collect erotic and pornographic collections and and there were assembled in all sorts of unlikely places at by clergyman teachers and realtively humble working men and put together these collections but also public libraries so the new york public library had a wonderful erotica collection and it was locked in cages and mocked very very discreetly in the in the catalog with triple star code and the british law. Had a wonderful collection has a wonderful collection of erotica and there are great stories of people going to the british library. And saying you know wanna have look at this particular book and the you know the superintendent saying are you a psychiatrist or policemen and i say well. You can't have been collecting stories about australian booklets and this is all. This is about digressions on digressions. Right and he's he's a digression for you and it's a wonderful story of a collector in astrology. Glenn ralph who collected erotica in the middle part of the twenty century at a time. When it wasn't cool to do that this came to light and came to the notice of the sensor and the trade authorities in sitra and he went to court for for for importing erotic literature and they. They're socialists to assign a psychiatrist. Because why would you be interested in erotica if unless you were a little bit off. So they sent the psychiatrist to same. And the cy conscious first question was what have you got in this wonderful library. And he worked at arrangement with a psychiatrist where the cars were paying ten shillings per book to borrow the books from this library. And then when psychiatrist we know see he would books in europe and london this guy to enhance his library Have to report back to. The place always seem to be making progress. We're making wonderful progress. I love that aspect of subverting. What a stupid law and was a terrible regime and two people coming to completely subverted redmond berry famously the judge kelley trial way back in the late nineteenth century. Tell me about his library. Which eventually became the by the collection. The state lottery victoria. And he's he's on personal nuts. Well the state lotteries my local state library. Second riddick tori. And i'm afraid of the library and it's a wonderful place and and looking from the outside. It's very solid institution with his wonderful down to trump. Does what john nash. But one of the one of the foundational texts of that That institution is a set of what Barry colty books and these are very candid account of his conquests with them mistresses prostitutes and married women and he he writes his a scoreboard in a very practical way. Lie can went to paramedic misses ten times and then went through the river. Mrs s. two times. What's what's the time. I'm not sure what the time is other times what you might think of time. What was i think it might be something. Smaller than thanh is a whole hd and just in trying to pick so from my point of view. It's wonderful that the library has kept having barrick. Berry was a very interesting bachman. He wrote in a lot of his books. And he's left behind this incredible documentary record and the way we think about berry now. Yeah that's an important part of it. So this is terrible. Trend in particular in the nineteenth century when people are barring and hebrew and others head Our sexual books or pornographic books or or things that were Heretical in some other way and the the executives would burn them and so this is talking about the loss of books in the destruction of libraries. That was one one aspect of why the documentary is not one. It might have been so. It's wonderful that we do have barry's even though there are a little bit salacious and kind of a bit surprising. It's an it's part of the picture. We do have a bit of a horror of burning books. I mean i know you do. I have one spoil. It seems to be like anytime you see. The active burning books take place in the modern day that's always canopus. Pictures of the nazi spending books seems to be an understanding that there's a civilizational line. You don't cross when you when you burn books. Nonetheless books are burned. Told me the story of sylvia plath thinning ted hughes's manuscripts this. This is a really good example of of this sort of trends this sort of crossover between bibliography and human biology When when sylvia was unhappy with one instance of of ted's adultery and it's reasonably well documented. About what ted with up to. And she made a bit of a bonfire in the backyard and it was Ted's drafts and notebooks and works progress but she sprinkled in in into the into the flames sort of witches brew of fingernails dandruff that she'd collected from the bathroom. And so this is ted. Ted's ted standard and so it's not just destroying the books as a way of getting the person but it's actually burning part of the person as well and i love that story because of the passion behind it but also because of that crossover between us being almost physically present in books. It's like a bit of roaring black magic. Engulfing this these letters these in bits of the enlightenment re consuming banning benny paces and what about the state of libraries and books today. I mean there is the books which now seems to be going back to. Gnassingbe began back to the principal. It'd be more actually on the physical book rather than the the e book What you see with libraries today stewart talking about that disconnecting values in in light millages and the renaissance where he had that sort of two different ideas of the value of folks. That's really in house. Well so books are an. There's people like me. You and i who who love their books and books have had a bit of a resurgence. In the last few years they build a building private libraries and Valuing the physical book but at the same time. There's a whole bunch of people were saying well. This is an all technology. It's been superseded by microfiche by digitization by kindles just get rid of it and so books are actually being destroyed an incredible right right now by libraries and by individuals and they're being thrown out and so it's it's only. I think the last time this happened was the last part of the dark ages. We had that incredible disconnect and part of bad if if the information is being recorded otherwise just not on the printed page. Well okay one example. this this recently documented where a lot of public library society well for example with periodicals newspapers. We don't educate that because someone else's keeping it and so A throw them out and the other library will make the same judgement and now the locker room at the same judgement and then suddenly you just don't have the physical copies now. Digital versions are incredibly useful than a practical y. You can use them for research and you can share them and all that sort of stuff but things are lost when you have the physical version. Because there's uniqueness in the in the newly created or this uniqueness in the way that they've been stored unused and so yeah there. Is that sense that we are actually losing something by rushing to rely on digital versions. We rely on the hardware itself to be able to read the digital product at the end to like i got lying around my zip disks from the nineteen ninety s with falls on a nigga again rate again even if i could find mas zip travel and be able to plug it into my computer problem. There isn't the story of the doomsday book in in the eighty s. Which was a bbc initiative to to store a snapshot of britain at that time and they use to particular kind of. I think it was like a laser disc and as soon as ten years fifteen years after a computer that would actually read those disks and yet the original doomsday book was still wear. It always been in the in the in the archives so they did actually work out how to raid that that text but it was an incredible effort of on picking your hexa decimal daughter and recreating how they thought people did digital directories at that time. And so yeah. Digital daughters is fallible and but also even if it weren't fallible and there's nothing locked that kind of relying on the technology that we've relied on for a long time if using a person as the reading device as much as using a computer near books straightly high tick. that's the thing that they contain. Vast amounts of information quite a small space that's easily accessible. And you don't need an operating system to run it other than the the human. It's actually reading it. You mentioned the americans have gone libraries and when every president complete system. Lsi they built a giant library. I've been to the j. f. kennedy library in boston and You know it's pretty impressive. And it's really a temple baddies presidency really all these papers and stuff. Inevitably the americans will in the as the mesopotamia in kings used to do that will rise quite fair on this means that will very likely almost certainly be donald trump presidential library. We know one thing about that library already. We know it's going to be the very best. It's going to be a beautiful library. It's going to be done even if it's not will be. They'll only be the out of the deal a pretty much arranged these cost. There's also this is the bogus time. Time magazine covers. It'll it'll be. It'll be possible in the foyer. A lot of gold. golden bilas. if you're headed a mental picture ruined ultimately did this tour. You went on change idea what a library is for. It did it. Did it changed changed. My family is a life changing experience for all of us except the one year old who's oblivious But yeah i it. Did this really strong. Since in america that they value libraries as places for facts in education particularly the children's side of it and conversely a really strong sense in the uk that municipal libraries around the threat and this loss of these non commercial spaces in in in towns and cities and a loss of a pathway to a life as a writer or as a life as a scholar or alive. That's that somehow lifted up. So yeah. I came back really with a really strong sense that we're incredibly lucky in australia. Because there hasn't been that same disinvestment in libraries here people still building libraries and still funding libraries. And we still understand in the same way that people of athens and the people of alexandria understood that a library is an important part of civil society. If we could just get the children's entertainers out of them. I'd be happy to be my thing. It's been such a pleasure speaking with you and thank you so much. Wonderful richard this conversations with richard fidler. That was my conversation from two thousand seventeen with. Stuart kills as selected by you students. Delightful book is the library a catalog of undis- honored five. Thanks for listening. You've been listening to a podcast of conversations with richard fidler for more conversations interviews. Please go to the website. Abc dot net au slash conversations Discover more great. Abc podcasts live radio and exclusives on the abc listen app.

john fry alexandria europe Mrs winterson stewart harsh roxborough Society morocco harvard stewart watts library chappie folger's shakespeare library stuart kills cameron Brock library lambeth palace library boston athem library
Badges Beyond Borders w/ Stuart Schrader  Ep 74

Fortress On A Hill (FOH) Podcast

1:10:23 hr | 1 year ago

Badges Beyond Borders w/ Stuart Schrader Ep 74

"Look the fortress on a hill I'm Henry I'm Danny I'm Kagan. Where we left US veterans that into the reality of the US military's multiple wars abroad and illuminate the damage military service does American American presidents out US history have used American military and diplomatic power to force regime change democratically elected governments around the world most veterans come from families vested in Prior Service and American generals choose their own ensuring diversity of thought never interferes with American warmongering. How can we stand by and do nothing while our military kill and destroy lives the world over while telling Americans, that the death and destruction protect them from terrorists when nothing could be more all? Fortress on a hill aims to change that. will welcome everybody to another episode of fortress on a hill. We are really really excited to have our guest today Stewart schrader. Stewart is the. Of Badges Without Borders how global counterinsurgency transformed. American. Policing. Before before, we get started just a little intro here give you a little a little bit of background, a stewardess, the associate director of the program, racism, immigration and citizenship. And a lecturer slash assistant research scientists at John Hopkins University. He's also affiliated with the twenty th century Cities Initiative and received his PhD studies, from N. Y. You in Twenty fifteen. before coming to Johns Hopkins, he was a postdoctoral fellow at the Charles Warner Center? At Harvard University and the Center for the United States and the Cold War at Tenement Library New York University. At Johns Hopkins, he teaches courses on police and prisons lack social movements and critical race theory. Well Stuart, welcome to you for being here with us today. Thanks for having me. So. Before we before, we get started with a little more details, could you give? The listeners kind of a brief overview about your book in kind of your goals with writing it. Sure. Batches Without Borders is history of the program of. Police assistance to other countries that the United States developed during the Cold War. The book focuses on the period from nineteen, forty, five to about nineteen, seventy five. With with the the main. Interest in in the decade of the nineteen sixties. The United States in this period. Provided assistance to police in fifty two countries around the globe. Some of those assistance programs were short lived some of them lasted for. Two decades. the assistance consisted of three primary domains. What was called technical assistance, which means helping the aid recipient countries you know build up new capability. So a classic example would be a crime laboratory or or or a fingerprint fingerprint data management system. So, technical assistance with one. Training was the other the United States trained police from the fifty two countries that I mentioned. As well, as another twenty, five A. Where they never actually had had assistance programs on the ground. For the training police would come from around the world to the United States and the academy that the United States operated was called International Police Academy in it and it was in Washington DC. And then finally, the third component, the costliest in largest component in some ways. Was the provision of of material assistance. So what that meant was that the united, states, who in other countries, all types of. Goods that they might need. Some of these were totally mundane. Handcuffs. Cameras Radios and some were more sophisticated, and of course, it included you know weapons obviously, firearms and bullets is well as tear gas. So I look at this program of police assistance across the globe in Asia Africa and Latin America. And I. Analyze how? Assisting police in other countries. involved. Police you'll leading police experts from the United States who are the type of people who would write the textbooks police in the United States who would Lead. Classes at at academies in in in colleges across the United States who were police chiefs in important locales. These these folks went overseas to assist police but of course, they also came back home and so a big part of the book is in addition to looking at how the United States or with police across the country than to look at how this affects who leasing in the United States in particular in the nineteen sixties how the political protests San upheaval associate with the civil rights and black power movements was met with new forms of aggressive types of policing that were shaped by the this overseas program. And I go into a number of dimensions of influences I look at. Training in in riot control I look at the introduction of the chemicals. For riot control also known as teargas. I look at the development of the SWAT team. And I look at the Development of new bureaucracies in the federal government to to wage war on crime using the phrase war on crime was used by the Johnson and Nixon administrations in this period. And there's there's a number of other things get in the book that we can talk about. So I'm I'm curious. Having a book came out fall last year, and the last two or three months many of the book subjects have been just. Swirled around as to what's what's happening in our country of mass protests against police brutality. I'm wondering. What has really struck you or maybe surprised you about this moment in history you know the the heavily militarized police presence and Response unmarked. federal agents in military uniforms What what do you think about all that store Well. I would say that in some ways I am. You know, of course horrified but I'm also not totally surprised I do think that it's important to recognize that. Twenty twenty is is a long way from the nineteen sixties. A lot has happened in in between. So I would be hesitant to say that you know what I what I write about in the book, which which concludes around nineteen seventy five has has a direct and decisive role in shaping any individual story that isn't news today on the other hand I hope that my book shows that it's impossible to understand the development of policing in the United States from the sixties forward without contextualising it in relation to a US empire. Were overseas and in the the. Really. Strong ideological component you could be saying which is about. Quelling political dissidents and Constraining. Social Movements and collective action for for Change in in the United States, in and around the world. I think that what we're seeing right now in in the United States would. Be. Both recognizable and somewhat surprising to some of the historical actors that I look at it in the nineteen sixties on the one hand. They were wary of the ways that. Police response to protests could intensify in worsen protests. That's a key theme that I examined in the book which has interesting consequences But. I. Think. So they they would understand and recognize how police have have made things worse right now I think they would be a little bit taken aback at the Administered the trump administration's unwillingness to to try to. Rain this in on in I think it's more than just unwillingness I active effort to to provoke and and incite. Violence. So I think that some of my historical actors would recognize it. I think they would be a little bit alarmed and surprised but. They. Would also be quite surprised at how different the funding landscape is for police in the United States. In the nineteen sixties, it was challenging for police to. have. Enough resources to to to accomplish their everyday tasks says, well as their kind of emergency in crisis management tasks and a big focal point of the book is looking at how police. Used their experience of of being enrolled in the. Protective of assistant police in other countries have used that experience to then make new demands on the federal government. To get funding for for law enforcement, which ultimately was successful. In his typified in the Nineteen Sixty Eight. Federal Anticrime Bill. Fast forward from making sixty eight to twenty twenty, and there is a lot more money available for police coming from the federal government and certainly a state and local levels so that that kind of challenge of figuring out where will the resources come from that I think police fell. Hinder them in in police experts felt hindered police in the sixties is now much less of a problem. Now, police have basically all the resources they need at their fingertips. At the federal level and just the one last thing I would say on this point is that the other thing as I raised the police, the federal level the other thing that would be quite surprising to my historical actors that I look at is the the. Willingness even eagerness of the trump administration to use federal law enforcement. Officers to you engage in policing of of non federal offenses at I think it in the nineteen sixties. police local police wouldn't have stood for that and police experts were operating kind of at the national. level. Would have been very wary of it because they they would have worried about the ways that it. Echoed the what they consider totalitarianism of of the Pre World War Two period, and of course, what they believed was true. The Soviet Union. So, they would have been wary of this surprised by and I think that is a a a distinctive difference. Now, of course, it's certainly true that there were federal law enforcement agents agencies. In the nineteen sixty s the FBI most prominent among them. But they did not. Operate in in quite the way we're seen police are operating today in in cities like Portland. Now I've so many. Questions in places. I I WANNA take it. But for sort of like honing in on some of the stuff that you're talking about here because I think that this is really important to your book and you know it's been described in the reviews as smoking gun book right? which is pretty cool and I think rare. overused. But in this case, I think totally accurate. So one of the misunderstandings that I think maybe help clarify. It is often here while the police have always always been this way we bought the police have always operated this. Whitewater. WanNa change it. Now, how can we defined or abolish what does that even mean? and. It's understandable if you don't know the background, but my question is based on your research and obviously you know. You'll focus more on your specific area temporarily. But how old or new is sort of the contemporary policing model we're seeing and what changed most about it in the period specifically study. into good question, I mean I. I do think that one of the takeaways of my book should be that in terms of function police it we we we can point to a lot of continued continuities for police, but in terms of kind of institutional organization police have changed somewhat significantly from the beginning of the twentieth century to the present. Understanding police function as. Being really static of course, even as many things are changing in American, society I think is crucial. The the key. Function that police maintain. Has Been to a support and uphold capitalist social relations to maintain. The. Easy Way to put it would be to maintain the color line, which of course, has geographic dimensions but has many other social dimensions. to to shoot to protect private property. to in as I said, earlier to. Quell political dissidents in various ways, all those functions have been persistent but the ways that police accomplish these goals has shifted in part in response to transformations in the broader. society. And certainly in response to changing you comic situations in economic fortunes in the country. When we look at the early part of the twentieth century police at the municipal level in cities you know generally were were connected to local political machines. And as I show in my book through the Middle Of the twentieth century, those political machines. Were mostly mostly dismantled in and a lot of the corruption that was associated with them. A was was eliminated. Police. The way that the transformation of of police occurred with the dismantling of of the political machines was that police were professionalized. This is a term that I use a lot in the book and it's a standard term that is used among historians of policing. What that means is that police became independent from political control. They became. Answerable more to the internal hierarchy of police departments than to the political whims of elites in in various areas professionalization of police saying You know meant that they would not only be politically independent, but they would also change the criteria through which police were hired if it previously police were hired. Because of their political loyalties and literally police would just writer a letter to a political boss in say you know my my grandfather was a democrat. My father was a Democrat I'm a Democrat and I will work for for for for the Democratic Party city Ex. You know as as hard as I can please make me a police officer and they would get the job something like that. Now under the professionalization, Schema police would have to pass an entrance entrance exam. They would have to fulfil certain types requirements in terms of education they would have to be literate, which was not always the kiss for. and then they would go through a somewhat rigorous training process. I, don't want to. Indicate that it was too rigorous, but they would go through a training process and a probationary period would become police. In when they did their job, they would be influenced by. Advances in in in Criminalistics, which was a way of describing the process of investigation using forensic technologies to to to to to track down suspects in in crimes, and so forth. All of that one hand-in-hand with professionalization and this this process I show in the book was global process. The leaders of the professionalization process took their experience in their knowledge around the globe and what what became crucial during the Cold War as I sort of hinted was that. These policing experts looked at other parts of the Globe and they saw analogies between the corrupt political machines in the United States and the. The. Political situations in other countries where they felt that democracy and a kind of more liberal political situation had been hindered by the close control of the police by a political elites in leaders in many countries, and so they thought well, if we could institute administrative and technical reforms in the United States to get police out from the political control of the machines in the city's surely, we can do the same thing in other countries. Now they were they were somewhat mistaken. In their in their belief that it would be easy to just. Kind of break the political control that other countries leaders held over there police But nonetheless, that was at least that was at least the effort. And that professionalization project as the kind of defining feature of policing in the United States. I would say lasts. Until. The nineteen eighties it continues up to the president. Of course, there is certainly a deep effort to you know use the latest technologies It engaging in large amounts of of training for for police both both before they become officers also at inservice training, I'm all that continues but I do think that there is a shift which I don't really go into the book because it's after after the book is concluded. Shift. The begins around the nineteen eighties and really. It's perhaps in twenty twenty. I mean that will remain to be seen, but which is the the development of police as a kind of political force in the United States once they're no longer under the control of the machines in the Early Twentieth Century by the Mid Twentieth Century when they they emerge from that controls as independent, they then become a certain type of political actor. I would argue where there now if anything I think we can say they're controlling elected officials in many places they are threatening to withhold their labor if they don't get what they want. Their bullying mayors on social media or other elected officials on social media. They're making their their political choices very clear and often times their political choices have to do with. Well, what type of resources will will will police receive how they will the budget be. Whether contract be a good contract and so forth so that that kind of you know using their political independence to get get what they want. To to diverge a little bit from from the the functions of policing that we were talking about a minute ago. Of course, it still remains the case. The police are are involved in quelling political dissent. We see that happening of course right now before our very eyes but I also think that the flavor of it is a little bit different. Of course, it's no surprise that police. Are you know cracking down on protests against racism. They're cracking down on on on on what they perceive as left-wing protests. But I think there's a very specific flavor to what's happening right now, which is that. Protesters are They're they're focusing their protests on police budgets. They're focusing their protests on the political power of police and I think that's inciting police to be in some ways extra vigorous and more cruel and aggressive in their response to the protests because they are seeing, there are kind of political project of of using their their power to to. Be well funded being targeted directly through through the slogan of defined the police, and so I think that you're starting to see the police response to these protests. Diverge a little bit from what we might normally think of as police control of protests, which is really just about. Maintaining order keeping the streets clear song and so forth I think there's a a different kind of ideological or political flavor to it that I think is important attention to. Just, as a quick follow onto that I think that that was one of the things that was most interesting to me about you know a bunch of your writing that I've read even non academic staff about this professionalism theme because we do a lot of military interviews, obviously, we're both veterans and write about this sort of stuff but. The military as well of course I think you're going to be held at bring up a lot of linkages year than and now. The military is well has had this sort of like coal to professionalism that really particularly. Becomes the way when you get rid of the draft, right? So we sort of go towards this volunteer we're going to be professionals we're going to be warriors. This is this is a profession right? This isn't a citizen-soldier anymore, and in some ways while there are difference does that appears to parallel some of the policing development and the politicization that comes from that despite the fact, for example, notes, they claim to be apolitical right which is, of course, never truly been the case, but you know someone will say the word professionalism. And the immediate assumption is that's that's that's gotta be a net positive right and so I think that's what's interesting is that you're you're pointing out not enough you can expand at all on. The dark side of that professionalism but also perhaps just a touch or intro because I'm sure we'll go in a lot of directions on some of these connections right between the institutions of the military and the police in of course, will there's a lot of operational stuff as well. Yeah I think that's a really interesting point I hadn't quite thought of it in exactly those terms. Know in part because. I'm mostly thinking about the the military in my work in the period of the draft but I would say that. The. Professionalism as as as you indicate, it is kind of double edged swords. So to speak on the one hand, it has this kind of technical aspect and I think that if anything the professionalization of police in the twentieth century, if we think of that as a new multi decade trend I think is really inherited from military many of the key figures who who are associated with the move to professionalize policing are themselves military veterans of the Spanish American war in and various campaigns after that most famously August fulmer who's the grandfather of professional policing? He's a veteran of of a counter insurgency in in the Philippines although he wouldn't have used that term. He you know he he adopts military manuals and that he had. Experienced in his in the training that the he underwent in the military, he adopts this had manuals in the police department that he runs in Berkeley, and then ultimately he he opens A. A division of the University of California in Berkeley that is dedicated to educating police. So I think that that we can see that that technical side. That has to do with say expertise in shooting your firearm and expertise in in in patrol Memphis, we can see that coming straight out of the military experience. But. Then the the other side of the sword is I think what you're referring to, which is the way that professionalism. indicates at a certain autonomy from external oversight. Professionalism means you know. Just, the same way that I as as a as a college professor you know I would say. I should not be subject to the oversight of You know any random person who doesn't have a? PhD. I should answer to other people with PhD's who are also called for pesters who have some sense of what this job entails on when they evaluate me. Or you know a a medical doctor would, of course, say the same thing? In, this may be breaking down for is in the pandemic but medical doctors would say the average person on on social media should not have any say in medicine professional medicine is is operating would answer to people who are similarly trained. So I think the police and military have a very similar attitude and it makes sense I. Don't think that it's it's particularly surprising but in the case of policing particularly, it becomes dangerous potentially when police use it as it used their professionalism as a way to resist any type of oversight or control from the public. Who of course you know according to the slogan? They're they're supposed to be protecting and serving When when they say you know look, we should only answer to our internal hierarchy, our internal modes of discipline him. There should be no civilian control, and in fact, as they said in the sixties You and I think this is kind of latent in in what is being said today civilian control is basically a communist plot to weaken the the police You know if that's where professionalism. Becomes somewhat terrifying because it it's meant to insulate end and allow police to in some sense get away with whatever whatever they want to try to get away with, and it has grave political consequences certainly We can't understand that the history of of racism in policing thout without looking at unwillingness to to be held accountable for for a abuses end illegal and unjust acts. So. I'd like to shift gears just a little bit You heard you make a comment on episode of the dig you were on recently where you were discussing about. Cops desire to. Be sent to the big fight. You know to have the feds sent into have been a win win quote Unquote Shit's real. For ways that US soldiers would say. and. After that it reminded me of years and years ago I was on a ride along a small sheriff's department They only have two deputies during the night shift and I asked one of the deputies you know generally all the other times that I had been working the road whether as an MP or as a reserve police officer. There were lots of other people around, but he was going to be by himself and this very, very large county and I was curious. You know what would he do if he came upon a situation with no backup nearby? And he calmly said, he would either wait to arrest someone or possibly distract them in some way until backup was available. But then he said that the most important part was that he went into his calls understanding that backup may not be immediately available. I feel like. Police officers have that mindset that because they know that they're in an area where multiple agencies might respond to something if they happen to to really really call for help. But. How does that mitigate the risk factors of? Of of being in that dangerous situation without immediately reacting to violence. And especially when it comes to Swat tactical teams, cops know that if they don't have their team called out, you know it's possible that the budget could get reduced or the team downsized not so much these days. But like you were mentioning at one time, it was much much harder for them to go on these little projects. And that by large SWAT teams are used for drug busts in high risk warrants not the super difficult work of rescuing hostages or maybe removing barricaded subject. But the the being unleashed you know this immediate move to violence. You know it. It shouldn't be a strategy. You know Mr Burns saying release the hounds can't be seen as a solid strategy to control crime even if they want it to be but the reality is that being unleashed, whatever we want to call it is a police tactic that they're very defensive about what happened to Martin Gha Gino in Buffalo with the SWAT team there You know the the the avenues forty-seven officers resigned from the team. That's the response to the slightest bump in the in the swat road the slightest procedural inconvenience they would rather ignore the assault their comrades caused than fielder team status diminished. Assuming the cared in the first place. As I say all of that to see this. Stewart what do you think this mindset? This desire to go to the big show it'd be unleashed says about where American policing is headed in terms of accountability I. You know I asked myself about it why there were those reports that police departments actively recruit less intelligent people You know we've seen that with the military that they you know that it not specifically that they want dumb people but they don't want people beyond a certain type of intelligence is this why veterans are desired so much. So what what do you think about this mindset and where do you think it bodes for the for the future of police accountability? I think that the way you've laid it out in some ways, you answer the question in agree with what you're saying it's it's it's hard to envision a way for accountability to be compatible with A. with, this kind of aggressive attitude this desire to be unleashed. Over the past couple months. Has Been. Watching the footage that so many people have been posting on social media from protests. So often it looks like police are. You know in some sense, they're cracking their knuckles and getting ready for a fight when they approach protestors and you know the of course we'll we will hear the justification that protesters are being abusive. that they're saying awful things and potentially you know they're they're throwing. Bottles of water at the police lines in various other things like that. But in general. The the idea is, is to to confront peaceful protesters. Who are essentially exercising constitutionally protected rights, which you know some question whether whether we can actually say that such a thing exists given what's happening? You know it's it's it's it's hard to imagine how how we could develop a mechanisms of accountability. that. Would not just be completely submerged by this attitude if what ends up being the legitimate approach of police Being this this deep form of aggression this this sense of which I think is is combined with fear the sense that any encounter could. A spin out of control in interment to a fatal encounter, a shootout or or some other type of violence. This this notion that the police in in any situation might be under attack might come under attack. Is. He gives a lot of license to to their behavior and and so figuring out how to how to rein that in through accountability mechanisms is quite challenging. Obviously, lots of people are trying to think this through right now, but I also think that. The the the public willingness to believe that accountability can be instituted has been exhausted certainly after the first round of black lives matter protests twenty, thirteen, twenty, fifteen. The Obama Administration tried to mollify protesters by saying that they were going to institute procedural reforms. They'RE GONNA create forms of accountability. There was going to be oversight from the department justice. Five years. Later, the effects of that have been nil and I think protesters generals as well as a wider public. Are Not. Really. They don't really believe that it's possible to for this of reforms in mechanisms accountability to have any major effect. That's part of the reason why on one hand the the protests are so vibrant in an widespread because people are so frustrated. In on the other hand, he explains why the protests have taken up the the. Language. Of defunding dismantling because because people are fed up and they just don't believe that that that the liberal reform mechanisms will will have the types of effect needed and certainly it's it's been. It's been my experience you know watching again you know watching videos and even being at protests and experiencing the police reaction it's it's been I I sense that of course, many police officers at these protests don't do much of anything. But some extremely aggressive and violent. I just don't see how you know accountability oversight could could actually do anything about that because there's no way that anybody would behave that way unless they believed that there would be. A strong levels of impunity if if an an and without the. Maybe maybe it's just to say that it becomes a little bit of a chicken and egg kind of situation that requires some much more thorough. Transformation of of the entire institution, it can't be solved by. Hinting that maybe there will be accountability. Or that, accountability. Will. Go beyond just. kind of nibbling around the edges. The guys and I love doing the podcast. Being, able to share experiences in the military with allies and supporters means the world to us. But we can't do all the work. We need you to share an episode of ours with someone anyone who you might think might be affected by it. Young people looking to join the military or parents advocating for one. Conscientious. 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So let's bring out these honorary producers and they are will rn's Fahim Chirazi. James Oh bar. At bellows. Eric Phillips. Paul Appel. Julie DuPrey. Thomas Benson. Emma P.. Janet Hanson. Lawrence Taylor. tristen Oliver Marwan Marwan and the status quo podcast. Your contributions are wonderfully helpful to us. Thank you so much. However if Patriot, his ear style, you can always contribute directly to us through pay pal at paypal dot me forward slash force on a hill. Or please check out our store on SPRECHER DOT com make sure you check for Promo codes before he order and now. Let's get back to the PODCAST. That's all I've been designating just the. Dibley around the edges not even attempting to get to a a a substantive place with identifying the problem. Let alone solution One one area of hope that I have though is There's been some court cases recently that have where courts have made. Have have made police officers more accountable. Because, they're department regulations required them to be and said, you know if this if your organization told you, you were supposed to do this and you didn't do it. Yes. We can hold that against you and so. Maybe in the interim to a certain point. because without fixing qualified immunity, this really doesn't do anything, but maybe there's a chance for people to advocate more for regulations of a specific department and that can have kind of a cross chatter between at Inter in illegal terms. I think that's right and I, and I think That you know police. Worried about. You know. Individual municipalities. Making changes and starting a kind of a wave of of changes. And the reason I think that that they're worried about that is because they see how so many trends in police saying you know happened in these kind of waves where where you know technology will be adopted or a certain practice will be adopted in one place and eventually you know sweep across the nation because police even though there are so many different police departments in the United States in they're all functionally independent They actually are deeply intertwined through all Thir- both explicit institutional networks and can you know hidden hidden? Social social interpersonal networks. So I think that there is a fear to some degree that out once once the ball gets rolling cliche that it'll be hard to stop and so that that that indicates why there is a a very strong amount of resistance to what seemed like very mild reforms in in many cases and I certainly am not oppose to mild reforms. I just think that we need to recognize that mild reforms are not going to fix this. You know the this this problem that is of such a a great magnitude. I think we need to in some sense try everything. We need to have a wide range of of methods to address the problems of. Policing in in racism and inequality that go in hand but. We also need to keep in mind that that the the small the low hanging fruit or that the easy for some reason I'm full of cliches today the the easy reforms are not solve the prong of even if it might. Still be a good idea to to to do them nonetheless. You know. I really think it's interesting what you're saying about how? The two thousand fourteen sort of initial black lives matter wave. Was Not, you know mollified by the promises that weren't kept or didn't have the facts and and Henry's question is so interesting and you know I'm GonNa flip mood in particular. But this whole idea that like the you know the the progressive left is like the snowflakes and the cry babies but you know so much of what we're seeing in that buffalo incident or in so many other cases of like Blue Wall Solidarity. Or resignations or pulling back right and just like not doing jobs you know or as like petulant protests I mean this is in some ways like the ultimate crybaby sort of status and and I do think it comes like we talked about earlier at least in part from a a notion that you're separate from society and are you not a citizen soldier not citizen police you're professional or your re become Pretoria in guard. And As we talk about this, really like sort of a preface jumping in an might first involvement. In this issue at all I'm embarrassed to say was in two thousand, fourteen I'm from Staten Island and the Garner case resonated for that reason although it shouldn't have been the reason and then you know I was teaching at West Wind start come down. Do like the moonlight as avert band it was interesting but it got me thinking about this empire come bomb thing right which we all is now cliche on Blad it finally as one but we couldn't even say empire ten years ago right in public the But, I guess I'm thinking about your your specific book, right the time period you've on and that of course, it reflects in today and that always interests me but. One might look at you know what you're studying this idea of counter-insurgency abroad and home and these police training programs, and they might say that there's sort of like to coincidental origins you know too many coincidental things. Were happening, say in the early sixties and song thinking Oh you know Kennedy forms the Special Forces counterinsurgency theory gets big for the first time, and of course, betrays brings back. This is the height of the civil rights movement, the cost of drug war in the onset of like the US role in Vietnam military. So that's all happening. So I guess you know we've touched a little on it, but if you could give us a bit more on what sort of like the takeaway or or consequences of these merging. Currents in context right I mean that seems to be really interesting. All that's happening at once in your story. Absolutely and and and I think you've you've laid out a a number of the key coordinates. In some sense, all of the ingredients preexisted the Kennedy Administration and originally when I started working on the book, I really thought it. It was going to start on on in January of Nineteen, sixty one. But then I realized that had two two draw drawback further because all of these elements are are pre existing certainly You know there's there's a special operations in the military You know before the Kennedy Administration there is police assistance to other countries before the Kennedy Administration what the Kennedy Administration calls, counterinsurgency popularized that term of course, many eight many of the ideas that go into that. Are already in existence and some some aspects of US military experience provide. Quite, a lot of Historical Kind of guidance although although the in the nineteen sixties they weren't so good at at at looking backward at previous experience but it was there. And then of course, the the struggle of of African American people against racism in the United States is not new in the nineteen sixties, but it is absolutely the case that all of these things as well as some other factors that I look at the book in including some intellectual trends they all converge and. Part of why they converge is, is that the Kennedy Administration has this orientation toward the so-called Third World, which is about. which is about economic and political. Development. and which is about you know rolling rolling back communism or at the very least containing in may be. Rolling. Back. Communism. And this is in the context of of the continue continued nationalist in decolonization struggles around the globe. Crumbling of of the the French and British in in other empires. In the fear that know both Moscow and Beijing, are are soliciting support among these these new newly emerging nations. So the Kennedy. Ministration does dedicate a number of resources to to the special forces. You know the creation of the green and so forth, and that's that's important I think. In general among among historians who who looked at this period and certainly with with portrays the way that portrays revived a certain set of beliefs and theories about counterinsurgency. There was a lot of focus on the green berets. There's a lot of focus on on special warfare but when I went into the archives, what I found was that in fact The the idea of using kind of special forces as as a kind of. Offensive. Offensive guerrillas let's put it that way On the one hand, this was not very successful and on the other hand of the people who who advocated this this approach fell out of favor in the Canadian attrition. One of the reasons they fell out of favour. was, of, course, the pays invasion which was kind of message tackler failure of this type of activity, but it was also happening in Vietnam there were you know a black operations? Across across the border in from the sea into north, Vietnam where in almost every situation Arabic case the you know the the guerrillas that that's US courses trained who are typically from home. They would. They would just get killed outright they had very little success. So so so these operations are happening they keep failing they create these kind of PR disasters in the case of the Bay of Pigs and all the while the police assistance program is ongoing. and the police assistance program. Is A at during the nineteen fifties, it basically starts officially at the end of mentioned fifty four. By. The end of the fifties, it's called the overseas internal security program. as. As it continues to operate. It seems to be having some success in a number of countries around the globe in. Preventing rebellions or revolutions by. Various forms of of militants whether whether they're actually. Officially officially consider themselves communists are not the police assistance program seems to be effective at strengthening the police in other countries, they're able to put down rebellions able to. Interfere, with with smuggling contraband. They're able to track down various incendiary figures that are either criminals or subversives or some combination of the two. So, there's there's a guy in the in the national on the National Security Council whose name is Robert Comber. And he has a he has the ear of of John F., Kennedy and he says, you know look at you're interested in in counterinsurgency you're interested in preventing revolution in Third World countries this approach of using a special forces to to train guerrillas sneak over the border in and you know run amok is just not really up to the task Because countering insurgency means preventing it from breaking out in the very first place in the only really effective tool to prevent insurgents breakout out in the first place is is modern well equipped police forces, and that's what we're doing with our police assistance program. It's cheap as a small footprint like let's make better use of it and ultimately he's able to convince. A number of powerful figures including the president himself to dedicate more resources to nineteen, sixty two, they opened the office of public safety and that becomes the kind of centralized directorate for these police assistance programs, which until that point had relatively dispersed and kind of you know it's too complicated but they were they were not under. Centralized oversight. So now they're under centralized oversight after sixty two with public safety PS. The director is a guy named Byron Engle who had been with the CIA. In the nineteen fifties in in in in engage in this kind of police assistance work around the globe going back to the end of World War Two. So Angle Shepherds the office of public safety as it as it grows, and they start offering this please assistance to a number of countries, and again, they are quite explicit that what they're doing counterinsurgency, the use that term. even as some of the kind of elites of the counterinsurgency world whether it lands sale or some of the the French theorists you know they they keep a little bit of distance from from angle in the public safety they're certainly aware of what's going on. But you know they, they want they see their expertise as as having. A somewhat more military flavor although arguably what they're basically trying to to introduce his military forces that can engage in police like activities So so everybody wants to protect his own turf and certainly for angle he feels if there's too much overlap between what he's doing and what some of the other agencies within the the government government are doing well, then he his budget might be first on the chopping block. So he tries to create a little bit of space between himself and again fingers like figures like Lansdale, and so forth. Ultimately Lansdale falls out of favor and then when you go into his papers. Which I've done an and you see kind of his his behind the scenes correspondence well, he he's talking a lot about policing and the people around are talking a lot about policing in fact. Lonsdale's closest collaborator is a guy named Charles Bohannon. Charles. Bohannon closest collaborator is a is a guy from the Philippines new Napoleon. While ends up the you know this this Guy Valeria no, he is actually not working with. So public safety so When when you see the full picture and you step back a little bit from the kind of romantic vision that the Kennedys. Put forth in in terms of the Green Berets or you step away from some of the kind of celebrities. WHO cultivate their own Arab mystery like Atlanta style you see that At the practical level where the resources are going and who has the greatest amount of influence is the office of Public Safety and I would just ask. The way to understand that as I as I mentioned at the outset, the also public safety is operating in fifty two countries on three continents. the the the when most people today refer back to the sixties in counterinsurgency they think of South Vietnam. South Vietnam, of course, a huge amount of resources from the United States were dedicated to to counterinsurgency there But but but in fact, if you go to the Kennedy, library can go to the Johnson Library and you look at the files that are labeled counterinsurgency. They are not just talking about the they're talking about you know the entire the entirety of the global south, where where many countries they feel are at risk of of hosting a a communist insurgency in upgrading the police in those countries is the only way to prevent that from happening. So. So that's that's one one kind of historic goal. Through line that tried to to to. Both both unearth in and then trace in in batches without borders. So. Henry if it's good I'm gonNA. File follow on with one one last kind of question of mine. Before turn it back to you. You know. You. Your answers are so interesting because they they touch on. So many things that I could go into and there's a lot of opportunity for connection there, which is one of the strengths of really. Just they work in the analysis and thesis general but you mentioned how you know it wasn't all about South Vietnam. And I think there have even been some policy and foreign policy analyst generally of the more interventionist Ben's who've even gone so far as to say, well, did the United States really lose the Vietnam War because the real prize was Indonesia right and and which raises a whole bunch of questions and so I was thinking about this I remember when I was teaching freshman at a at West. Point you know teaching US history in you fit into forty lessons but. I really liked paintings and partitions in does you know as as just kind of let a gospel tools and I used to show them a lot of Soviet propaganda from the era that you're riding in. You know in its lynching propaganda, it's police brutality against African Americans it's usually racial is. An showing some of the flaws right in the American model and I used to ask them. You know about this what do they think and of course, most of the students you know these are freshman than well, how dare the Soviets say that they were murdering all kinds of people? Correct. You know and I would say, well, you know they may be hypocrites but they strictly wrong on of course that would raise a whole bunch of questions. So that leads me to. Sort of the lack of or what appears to be correct me if I'm wrong, the lack of sufficient union rights preconditions for caveats with the many of the fifty two regimes right or governments that we're talking about and. One thinks of Central America course probably parts of Africa especially, Asia. And You know what I guess what are the? Unintended consequences short and long-term. Or. Maybe intended of. Supporting the police, right supporting the military's the paramilitary in these countries you know and and then, and of course, we'll talk about ethics aside perhaps you know. Try if it's possible to sort of answer, the cynics. The. Whole doesn't matter right. It's all about strategy really politics. Don't really no one really cares about ethics anyway. So that's kind of a broad John but. I think it's an important question because it's thrown. So often at us. To dismiss this as three of working with you know terrible regimes. Yeah I think it's really important what you say I mean certainly. you know on the ethical level, we can look at Indonesia. And know So there's there's a new book called The Jakarta method by Vincent. Bevan's which review of in the Boston. Review. In this book does does really fantastic job of kind of synthesizing some of the latest scholarly knowledge about the genocide of Indonesia and pinpointing the the US role. In one thing I wrote about in my in my review was to extend some of the analysis that Bevan's does based on my knowledge of police assistance, of course, ultimately. And the genocide that occurred in Indonesia beginning in nineteen, sixty five. was led by the military. And paramilitaries took took part in it. Least Assistance Program also played an important role. And The US since the program insofar as it. Created a you know very, highly capable police force that was focused on. Politics. You know in in. Really that was that was the purpose of it and. And the the the skills that the US cultivated among this police force were about keeping track of of targets intelligence targets. And so when we only Kinda step back and think about. Even situations that don't ultimately culminate in a genocide the way that. the the. Aftermath of the coup in Indonesian eighteen sixty, five did. At other countries what we see is that the enhance the enhancement that the police program allowed of the the counterintelligence programs in in various countries. It enabled political crackdowns on people who? In some cases may have been outright subversive. They may have been trying to overthrow the government but in many cases they weren't they were just merely political dissidents because I think the logic of counterintelligence is to. Make Associations that might not be political associations between people, but just might be personal interpersonal are so full associations make them into political associations and so the web of kind of suspicions is always growing. Everybody, who's caught in that web is is is treated as potentially subversive goes in. In. Grows and grows and grows and grows wider and wider erections. Certainly, this was the case with with anticommunist counterintelligence within the United States during the Cold War and it's true in all these places. So the United States builds up the capabilities of police around Globe to an investigate and ultimately neutralize various ways. People who are communists webs of suspicion, which are ultimately always growing in size always growing reach. The result then is, of course on the one hand you mentioned is it is an ethical problem. which leads to massive amounts of violence by the state. But on the other hand, I would also argue that it was ultimately politically ineffective for the objective it was trying to achieve if the objective it was trying to achieve was lessening political dissidents lessening political subversion. Weakening the appeal in in public support for for left wing political movements, it didn't affect. It had the opposite effect. It increased the sympathy people had for the left as as they saw people who were you know trade union leaders or or leaders who were never engaged in violence you ended up getting disappeared by security forces that increased the sympathy. So ultimately, I think you know even if if the if if somebody wants to take ethics. An refer only to the strategic geopolitical goals. It is absolutely true that during the Cold War United States. Shot itself in the foot repeatedly over and over and over again in in terms of actually achieving in schools because what it did was incite or provoke the very political movements that it was afraid of in the first place I mean I've been looking lately at at the ORG like case or you know in the early part of the nineteen sixties was considered quote unquote Switzerland of Latin. America or something very peaceful, relatively prosperous place. Nearby countries were engaging in greater and greater amounts of political repression including Brazil in Uruguay was open to political refugees from other countries coming in. but at the same time. Or Guay started to see some some political protest growing because there started to be economic stagnation. The police respond to these political protests Pacific. And ultimately, the Office of Public Safety, starts at Police Assistance Program or why And they are able to clamp down on demonstrations and when once a kind of authorized. Typical demonstrations that we might expect to see in any democratic country are vented from occurring will what does the left do the left goes underground and it starts to try to find other routes to manifest it's. All dissidents and ultimately that that leads toward you know Brazen Acts Bank robberies, and then ultimately kidnappings and some other forms of political violence I think that we can pretty clearly argue looking at the history of the public safety interventions in Uruguay and based on the evidence from from what the leftist militants themselves said is that the repression created the resistance right and so you can find this in in a number of countries across the globe in in in the Cold War period and interest to me is a really strong indicator that. If somebody is willing to set the ethical questions aside which I don't think they should. But if they are and they wanted to focus on on the Jewish strategic goals, the United States was unsuccessful in ended it really am. Provoked a lot of what it was trying to prevent an interested. You know bring it up to the president in twenty twenty. That's absolutely what's what's been happening with a lot of these protests is that the in the guise of controlling the protests? Police have have. To, put it charitably have overreacted and they protested more widespread, more intense and more resolute. So I think it's I think the history provides a. Cautionary lessons even for people who might think of themselves as kind of cold-blooded in sober in their minds are unclouded by ethical considerations. I think if you if you do that you, you find that I'm actually the history is one of a repeated failure. I WANNA. Thank you for that answer I mean. It was it's a leading question that sort of build on frustration with a bank. What we've kind of wealth agree is a tendency to. Divest sort of the ethical on the strategic when in reality you're pointing out that in some cases they are linked and. And like America's imperial wars some of this has often been counterproductive. For these countries in terms of its boomerang back home and and all that end up before I bow over to Henry I just want to say that I I read your. Review of the Jakarta method and I will say it was it was excellent and I have like one bone to pick with you which is that the Jakarta method is sitting on my shelf right now and the review was like so excellent and just kind of like an analysis. So comprehensive I'm like man. Maybe, I won't read the book I will I, will I promise should it's actually Seven should know that I totally am reading a book. So thank you for that that that was awesome. Well. Think that's a great place for us to wrap it up today. Stuart thank you so much for coming on the PODCAST. Thanks. Having was a really great conversation I really appreciated hearing your perspectives because of course, you have a very different set of life experiences from mind but but I think that it's it's it's great to to hear that my work has been helpful for for making sense of this. You know the the the book is amazing. I really enjoyed it will you let listeners know real quick where they can find your work? Absolutely. You can pick up badges without Borders from from any bookshop encourage you to use a independent bookshops. You can also pick it up from the University of California press the publisher. If you go to the University of California press website and search for the book, it'll take a page that lists list the book, and there's a little thing on the side of the page that says something like. Click here to create a flyer and you would probably look at that and say, well, why would I want to create a flyer in the reason is because there's a thirty percent discount could get on the flyer if you click on there and so that's the cheapest way to obtain the book and you can find me easily at through trader dot com or on twitter at s t schrader. And the number one and I I'd be happy to take your listeners. Thanks for doing the store and I hope that you'll be against again. Thank you. We're on twitter at fortress on a hill. And also FACEBOOK DOT COM at four on a hill. You can find our main blog page and our full collection of episodes at www dot fortress on a hill dot com. I tunes, Stitcher Google podcasts Patriots on spotify. You name it almost anywhere. You listen we're already waiting for you. And Hey we're always in the market for more Patriot supporters please consider becoming a patron patriot dot com. and. If you're not into give us a monthly payment is about giving us a couple of books pay. Link is in the show. Skepticism is ones best armor. Never Forget. We'll. See. Oh. You're.

US International Police Academy officer Stewart schrader Asia Green Berets Johns Hopkins Philippines South Vietnam John Hopkins University Harvard University federal government president associate director Stuart Twenty twenty
Bob Katzen -213

On Mic Podcast

52:50 min | 2 months ago

Bob Katzen -213

"Hello this is on mike with jordan rich. No i've interviewed thousands of folks in my career and every once in a while something a little different happens. Today is one of those days. I invited bob cats. Join me a freelance writer or reporter. A broadcaster a proud baby boomer. Who's been an entertainer in the new england area as a disc jockey both on the air and at parties for decades each hosted all kinds of music programs trivia and nostalgia shows and he's a really fun dude. I thought hey. We talk about his career about some of the interesting experiences. he's had Not quite bob turns the tables on me. First time it's happened. Perhaps ever and it was a lot of fun responding to his questions about me. So is the victim of an interview. Ambush gives you a chance to learn more about me and catch some of my snappy comebacks in any event bob cats and is a terrific guy loves people loves to laugh and it's great to have him join us as he takes me for a little trip down memory lane right here on mike so before we get into the business show business. Which is your life. Let's talk about the bagels. What's going on When you're a kid in the tough streets marblehead. Bub thing means streets of marble meaning elevation. Of course it's a paper route. I had a paper route. Actually to back mrs parks at the twelve. Avondale road still owes me three dollars and fifty cents from nineteen sixty three. Do you know what that would be worth in today's dollars. Wow what should i you know. Nineteen sixties go. Yesterday june thirteenth was the x. amount of anniversary of my barmitzvah june thirteenth nineteen. Well you know what mine is may fifteenth so we were pretty close. Are you a gemini by any chance. Leo okay. All right like uncle. Leo from seinfeld that just about all right. Let's go back to the bagels here. What what's going on so my brother. I would call the bagel voice. Jewish obviously grew up in a jewish neighborhood in arbel head and we decided. Let's figure out a way to start a business and we started delivering bagels. went around. The neighborhood took orders bagels low. It'd be delivered on sunday morning and people said well. That's an interesting idea. So we took orders than my mother. God lesser would drive on sunday morning at like five in the morning to cates his bagels in chelsea bagels. We pack them up by the number that the people boarded this one word. Half a dozen. This is in. Somebody would have just a couple so push with deliberate Five cents a bagel. I think it costs us three cents. A bagel and there was a ten cent. Delivery tried so little wagon. We were rich kids. I was. I was going to ask where the bagels come from but cats is more cases as you say. Excellent excellent choice. They're not around anymore. That particular store are they You i'm not sure we. I grew up in chelsea. The first couple years of my life was right around the corner so we would quite familiar. I'm not sure if they are around well if they are then it's you me in them. Well you've got a very interesting career That is still going going strong. And i wanna talk to you about your youth and upbringing in the fact that you sort of had this show biz thing. Going on at a very young age am my right. I was thinking this morning. Really not interesting enough to be wider stored margin to me what i did instead. You're gonna love this instead. I read proud of your book again. And i decided although at your show. Nobody's ever interview you on your show. Not on this podcast. No real go to interview on this able turned. Let's turn the tables or i'm becoming the host now. I just left my show. At w amex can say on the call online. Yes yes i'd left the the show. You actually had a year over there. We had our one year anniversary show. We're doing a talk. Show on the stahl in fifties and sixties w were on a guy loved it. It was a great experience and a wonderfully entertaining show by the way it was fun. And we're looking for a new home for those of you where radio station executives were listening number two two five four five six seven eight. Wait a minute. That sounds familiar. That's the old easy number before the The area code was necessary anyway. I'm three one thirty number two. That is what we call affectionately the contest line But let your. You're you're in the right ballpark. I think the new ones two five four ten thirty but people are wondering what the hell are we. Talking about. That's the fabled phone number two. Wbz talk shows but what you want to interview me okay. I'll give you a few seconds to to do that. I show wmu x. Up until june six and that was the show where looking for new home. As i say you were guest on the show and i slashed sunday was the first day i didn't do the show for a year in the thirteenth. Yes the Thirteenth which was the anniversary of my mitzvah. I was so excited that we can have a show on the anniversary of the station. Like i don't know how to break this to you bob. But june sixth is my birthday. I saw that way. The i feel terrible. Now that on my birthday your show ended. I just don't know how to deal with that. I also ask you to be a guest on the show since you kenny guests on the show several months ago i wanted to have you on for the bursary but you pull played the old birthday cards instead. I yeah ten people are taking out some thing. What would you do. I did nothing. I stayed home and went to bed early. Because i just didn't want to be involved with you. Know i'm kidding. I just did the usual things. I had dinner out and had a great time before you asked me any questions You are a wagon a jokester. So i'll i'll try to cut through a little bit of this at least for the introductory portion of this podcast. You also have a serious side that will get to talk about the beacon hill roll call. You did briefly before you ask me anything. Talk about talk radio because you did it. At of course M. r. e. which is fifteen ten in the old days are ko ami as you say. What was your favorite stint doing talk Corruption understand the meaning of. Turn the tables you. I'm going to interview you all right. I'll shut up my show. But i'll just shut up now the beginning. And here's the opening. Jingle all played league play play cling. You'll have to this pope's then i'll put it in post all right so at the jingle jingle to the show here we are in the bobcats show on the jordan rich higest but whoever thought that we'd come together like that i feel like an emt i'm sor- helping you survive another day. That's great all right so you're way more interesting than i am. And of course. I read your book from covered colored. My fifth year love affair with radio by jordan rich with stephen. A white and forward by peter. Casey stephen eight white is the same guy. Who did the paul venos- book the threat. He did and he's doing Another friend of mine. You may know him. Allen dines very five photographer. He's doing his brooke And he's He's he's a workhorse in a great guy. Yeah i should be writing a book. Bob you have so much material in that head of yours in that cranium of yours so much material and so many experiences which is why i feel sad that i can't ask you any questions because i'm on the hot seat so go ahead ask me any very okay now so fifty years radio that makes you how old you're eighty seven years old. And i discovered the the tonic. The fountain of youth actually tonic. It's cots orange soda. I think it's a call. I was going local. Their fanta was the beds are Manto the best arts fifty years in radio so the first one was going to ask me is. How do i get interested in this business. How far back ago. I your book startled at the high school in also doing a sort of show on your own your bedroom. Everyone that i know has done shows in their bedroom by themselves But they're not all necessarily related to radio We lost control of this thing. When i said hello to bob so why not go for no. I probably like you. I'm bringing you back into this whether you like it or not. I got the bug by listening to radio At night under the covers trying to get to sleep and unlike Some people i. I wasn't listening to the disc jockeys doing the the rock and roll. I was listening to the folks talking. I thought that was fascinating especially those from other cities powell we then. Oh seven eight eight. I had the the radio from from japan. Whatever make it was with the little earpiece from radio shack and i was set to go ballgames. Talk shows things like that. Radio shack is celebrating. Its one hundredth anniversary. I get emails from them all the time ago. If that's the case where can i find one. They're just online. Oh the just celebrating. Okay still selling stuff. Because i have a battery card still trying to get that filled out for the month. It might be able to do it because they are selling online. You can buy up. They still have all the old school stop. They send me you know. Am fm radio. Oh that's cool. I did not know that. My goodness i did not know that soldering kids that at all that stuff so when you were seven you're listening to talk radio they sign your friends on your back. That said endured You know they might of 'cause. I got kicked a lot and i never looked back there. I don't know whether that was the case. But i didn't i. I hid my nerdiness. If you can say that way my nerdiness. that's it And the way i did that was By playing around with my voice. I am my voice. Dropped at my bar mitzvah and i was able to Vaguely impersonate teachers and other students. So i got myself out of a lot of trouble so didn't get kicked as much as they could have Right your toilet paper of the bottom of sneaker walking around. I thought that was the way you're supposed to walk around. I still have. What are you talking about isis. Isn't that the the fashion style. Isn't that the fashions you've seen some of these twelve paper ads on tv. It's like they have the Sherman bears or something is just gone too far with advertising toilet paper. Well the mr whipple. There's is long gone to shame. Because of course he'd be arrested on all kinds of flagrant charges today. Just just for being who. He was So you broadcast around. Your house told me about that. Oh yeah. I had a tape recorder. That i i wrote about. It was with green stamps. And i used to record everything Did you have a tape recorder when you were my age at that point. Had a real to real wallin sack there. You go or wally as we call them right. The best the best. So could you broadcast around the house. I had a little crystal thing. We're actually go on radio around the house. That would make my friendly listen. No that's the one thing i never did. I never built my own little radio contraption. Because i can't build anything and i really rely on engineers to do that but but i did get a kick out of all if you remember this bob using and and this is the term alligator clips. Do you know what those are worth. Because later on not that. I use them but friends would use them as roach clips. Later on in life. I see that i. I'm such an innocent way. I never knew that. But but alligator clips would allow you to send sound on a tape recorder through the phone usually a payphone and yet unscrew the mouthpiece so that leads me back to you for a second. Just for a moment. the beacon hill roll-call the serious side of bob cats. And tell everybody what that's all about because it you did that for years. Got your started curry college. You don't wanna talk me agree. Don't wanna you really have turned the tables completely on you. Okay all right but your participation stick by keeping your continuing to join attorney. Well i'm just. I'm just acting the professional but that's acting so so yes curry college. She's that what you wanted to know. College isn't it w met connery yes. Ken is mentioned him on. Every podcast. 'cause you know we're romantic no not more magically connect He's my part exactly these days it they can't believe we're not but We thank you but we are very much A team and we've been a team since the late seventies Longer than martin lewis or rossi and martin whatever rossi and martin rossi and allen allen and rossi so anyway you got me all for mitch. Here bob i wanna tell you really did a great job so yeah we've been together a long time doing production doing Radio work and marketing and so forth having a great time still enjoying it very much. But i got the started curry college where you know you were able to work hands on as a freshman and how about you. Did you have higher. Ed in your past that helped you at w. m. l. n. Which was the curry cohen station. Guys wait for national enquirer. I read your book. is that true. Oh yeah we stole from everybody. I mean wouldn't wouldn't you at eighteen But i as as an old soul. I mean i really enjoyed old showbiz so the stuff we were doing on on air at a little. Ten watt radio station was vaudevillian compared to what the kids understood or wanted to hear so You know we weren't too popular on campus also to go along with your nerdiness from when you were something. You had a classical music show the right. yes. I i love classical music and kami kami goofy nerdy. I think it's a mozart is still being heard. I don't know if demi demi demi lovato is going to be around for three hundred years but i did. My first show was a classical music and what was great about that. And and bob. Who will not comment on anything. I ask him Knows what it means to run a control board and play records and be a disc jockey. it's very difficult to be disc jockey first time out when they're forty five spinning around so quickly ending so quickly so when you're playing symphonies that are twenty minutes long. You do everything in slow motion. So that's how. I learned everything about running the board. And for those of you who aren't old annoyed forty five is. That's the forty five records the smaller version of the album. The has the hole in the middle right. Not one you fire off and And cozma hem. That's different kind of forty five. But by the way do you still have. do you. Still have the adapters floating around in your desk drawers. You won't answer that debate. You do question. I'll tell you a story first of all what you can't see me on the xuemei concealed of the we call it. I have a necklace. That is a forty-five adopter is silver. Forty five dr. A great conversation piece that i imagined today would be because so many people are living for. The moment wasn't happening while i was alive. It didn't happen that kind of thing. Yeah i think it. Is that a star wars or shape but some religious thing. And i say no no. It's a forty five after the kids. Say a what yes. It's hopeless. I think you should go. With the orthodox jewish symbol of the. I think you ought to use something like that way jordan as we talk about you as well. You worry Mobile disc jockey trinity year. Doing what we called record Yes what we call record ops. Because bob cats who will not answer any questions from me. I says here in my notes was Doing this mobile destructive thing since nineteen sixty six. Which means you weren't even there doing them with attracts. You are so You're such a pioneer. But but yes. I did Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of gigs as we call them and Learn a lot about human nature. Don't you oh absolutely absolutely now. You'll you'll love this story. I told you in kansas story when you were on my show but make believe i'm telling you for the first time in case you very good at absolutely gut it. So this was back in the sixties still plan b the seventy s or eighty six. We're still playing some forty fives is not everything was easy to get on on tape state to the So the kids used to steal did a lot of the kids would still the forty five adopters for their home stereos fourth and one night. We were packing up when we looked around. We were all the extras. They stole the extras they. The regular ones and we had a gig the next day and you can have all the expensive equipment in the world. The mobile discharged if you don't have the forty five adapter. It's all over thing. Just gonna swim around the dern jape. Yes so. I called the tower records at the time and a young woman in her twenty s Our records and i said hi to carry forty-five adapters and she said services not a gun shop. We don't he actually went with the gun motif. Okay and i said you're kidding right. She said no she hung up. She actually thought. I was asking about some kind of attachment for forty five revolver. I said she's amelie real old or she's really young but both ended up at skippy whites. Where you could buy all five. I would want we bought about one hundred of them and we never run out one story on that We lost an adapter as well and the gig was about to start and we couldn't find the adapter so we fashioned an adapter out of a paper plate. We cut paper off circle in the paper plate and sort of created a three dimensional. Little tabletop and son of a gun. If it didn't work you know. I mean maybe a few of the tunes were a little wobbly. But we got through the gig. And no one knew grassroot said where were you when i needed you like today. Of course not doing forty five adapter building actual guns out of xerox machines or yes yes Predates three d Manufacturer of everything. So will they d. manufacturer phonograph a needle. I'm sure they can do that too. Absolute so tell me your funniest record hop story gas store around a lot of my funny. Well mine's embarrassing story. But they're funny. Because i can laugh at myself and this has happened to To a great many performers in. Maybe you have a comment on it as well bob. I was doing a I think it was a graduation party for a big family hundred people indoors at a kfc style. Place I worked every casey as you probably have and Jomon comes up and says could you play the anniversary waltz for my My aunt and uncle aunt bessie and uncle ned or whatever. I said sure i'd love to wear. Are they sitting. He said well there in the corner in the back. So it okay. So i put the song on and as its queuing up. I did a very nice tribute to the fiftieth wedding anniversary of ned and sophie or whatever their names were and i said This is for you from your family. And i start playing the song the anniversary walt and no movement from from the two of them and i said Come on now. Let's let us get up there you can. You can ask him if you'd like if it's easier. I mean just a few seconds on the dance floor. I went through forty five fifty seconds during the song trying to get them up. And i start to see people whispering to each other and then finally a woman sorta pointed in their direction. I got the idea. Something was up the The wife of fifty years was legless. Oh my god yeah and nice of them to tell me nicer the guy who set me up to me by the way. Don't ask them to dance. So that was embarrassing. It happened to the current president when he was Vice president he did the same. Come on stand up out there. What's the matter with you do. I've seen that clip. Well mine was a similar one but hearing yours makes mine. Sound like it's. it's nothing. I was digesting the wedding of our mutual friend. Alan tolls oh i know how of course love him and He was the second marriage fit. New wife's name was debbie. And i did the gig and i had a couple of drinks. I guess and somebody came up. Probably the same person who set you up ban said Play some oldies. I said sure and she said would you play sherry by the four seasons. I should show. I love loved the foresees. Put it on and the new wife. Debbie screaming up to me. Because i forgot sherry was. The name of allen's first wife is getting married to a new life. And i'm playing sherry dedicating to allen equally embarrassing and perhaps the dangerous if that's yeah that's you get stuck in those situations and you can't go anywhere you're stuck right there in the middle of the floor But that's the that's why we sign on for the tough assignments right bob. We're a job now. One of my favorite party book is working out of the closet at the airport elaborate on that out of a broom closet. I'm very proud to say I was a meteorology not a meteorologist but a an assistant to the meteorologists at the airport. Working for a wr ko radio in boston. And i was allowed to gather information on whether from the weather prognosticators the guys who knew it was going on where we actually get all of our weather still from from the national oceanic and atmospheric administration and my job was to relay information directly from them to the radio station and started out Pretty easy gig just taped three or four pieces and sat there for three hours. But then i became more involved but the the structural setup was a supply closet. I call it a broom closet. There was a broom in there and They wired in A microphone a sure mixer. You know what that is. Bob you've seen enough of those. And i literally had that same year piece that i used when i was a kid in my in my bedroom listening to far off radio. That was my headset plugged it in. I was off to the races and every once in a while. I'd beyond live with the dj back in boston at at the radio station and one of the weather guys would come in. And i'd hear this. Hey where'd you put the three hole punch you know or something like that. They were looking for supplies. And it didn't matter i was in there talking. They didn't know or care so zone. It was but it. It was a humbling experience. But a very good one. Because i actually learned to Really ad-lib pretty quick on my feet. Because i had to and it was it was a thrilling experience to be anarchy. A big fifty thousand water back then and you were promoted after that you got into the studio. Doing i was promoted. I ended up working with some of my radio. Heroes that i wrote about norm nathan and others back then and ultimately That led to me going north When that ended up to almost the new hampshire line and then making it back to boston to wbz about Twenty six almost twenty seven years ago. How were you at Wish called young adult contemporary station there. Fifteen years three owners Six general managers maybe seven or eight program directors. It's kind of like a baseball player. Who sits on the bench and just outlasts. All the managers was great de. So we're gonna find out anything about you or you just a guy who shows up and asks me questions. I'm just showing up and asking a question so now then you need the big time at. Wbz let's talk about that because that was really the big chi. Well you hero norm nathan. My hero and i had several others. I had For those local listeners. I had heroes. Gary lapierre where i ended up befriending and david of very famous local talk show host and so many others and Yeah i got the gig like anything else. Faded by accident and ended up working. And when you tell people you work the overnight shift at midnight most people would say why would you do that. Isn't that a step down work. Those hours Quite quantum Oaklawn rare it was absolutely fabulous to work those hours because busy signal traveled to thirty eight states and canada. This is pre internet and it was like living a dream to so much fun. What year what did you go too busy. Ninety five nineteen ninety five and it was i. I actually said at the time. If i just work one night and say i did it. I'll be happy. They said that your jet. That's all just to say did it. Because growing up in this area It it was these station of of not. I mean for the school announcements for the news breaking for the for the music. Let's face it for the dj's who are your dj's listening who. You're listening to bruce bradley back then. within jordan rich well come on. You don't have to be freaking self-serving bob over the food they've Those are probably two of my drew. My favorite are well. we'll go ahead. Say i worked at our. Ko for many years in there were just a wonderful group guys in in a few ladies to who breaking away with their Mike adams who just retired a few years ago. fell by the name of scott burns out on the west coast. One of the most actually a former guest on the podcast and a brilliant voice guy Fella named dennis jon bailey or dj beef. Was i think from kentucky real southern boy and the great charlie van dyke who In radio circles is considered one of the top ten of all time. So i had a really terrific group of individuals to to learn a. That is a great Filled jerk america. No not when i was there. I don't believe so nell norman. Dale dorman left to go to. I think was. Wbz bef at the time fm station about a month. Before i arrived. But i got to know dale a bit later on Towards the end of his days. And what a nice man he is and we were able to get a studio His his home studio equipment which was top-flight donated to mass destroyed college and online his name. So it's now there is a living sorta testament to him and it's a working functioning studio suite. Got which leads me into your your work with charities over the years in fact your book which is available kids on amazon dot com. That's amazon dot com. It's my fifth year love affair with radio. Mike jordan richards a great book. I read it before. I had jordan on my show about six months ago Great rape book very warm and funny and serious parts as well. All all the profits from the book for instance go into children's hospital. Yes that's right. I mean i. I'm happy i don't need the money. I'm very happy to To do something to continue to support this great institution. I did it while. I was on air at busy for for a couple of decades. It was the station's charity. And i sort of became the unofficial ambassador and i loved it absolutely loved. It saw the good. That's done there every day. So yeah Listen all kidding aside and we've been getting a lot this hour this segment if you if you have the your health and if you're in good shape and you can give back. There's no greater feeling in the world. You know this. Bob you've done so many events yourself so it's it's a small service that we can offer those of us in this business. We have big mouths we can promote stuff. Get people to get excited about a charity or foundation and Just to know that you leaving a legacy that somewhat more grounded england has more actual concrete results is is really very very self-satisfied. A story from Children's hospitals from your work. Their personal story. Oh man we used to do the telethons every year. The radiothons and that was that was always great fun but no i visiting the hospital On occasion not often thankfully because my kids were healthy are healthy but visiting the hospital on occasion walking the wards and seeing the tiniest of babies you know in nick you that were probably not going to make. It had been anywhere else. I mean they were very unlikely to survive but for the incredible talent of the doctors and the incredible equipment in research so it just It reassures your faith but it also reminds you that The most innocent among us are oftentimes victimized by things that are totally beyond anyone's control. And if we turn our back on them and the parents oh my god. I met so many parents who Gave up their lives for their kids. And who wouldn't right if you really love your kids so very very moving experience. And i'm thrilled to be part of it again. The breaks your heart. When it's it's kids might lives late. Mother would always say. I'd say i'm having bad day or some. She said you want to know what a bad day is. Go spend an hour children. Trust day that's true I only only add to that. That bad days often become better days because of children's hospital. But you're right right about that through just stuck in my head for a long long time. So i'm looking at all these things that i never talked to you about. Don't touch that dial about You winning the induction into the new england. Newspaper impress association hall of fame. Forty six years late you say blah blah. You know just a trick for you to have the on again. Try respect a man. Who's wiley crafty like that. That's right now. We're going to do a quick lightning round at the end of jordan's book. The book is great but he also read the list of guest that he's had in the sixty seventies eighties nineties. Two thousand basic window a quick lightning round. I'll just mention the actor or actress or sports. Figure whatever and you give me a quick united nice. We have time for that. Yeah okay so let's start with. Ns draw people have been enjoyed. Ryo crusty Very very snarky but a sweetheart teddy bear. I interviewed him even recently in the last year. Or so and If you play into his game if you're afraid of him he doesn't appreciate it if you play his game and give it right back to him. He's great love. What would like to lou grant coward very much like lou grant very much lou grant all right the a icon kirk douglas. That was one of my proudest moments. Because he was a hundred years old. He had the stroke ten years prior and he had come up with his last book of love. Poetry is very fine writer and I got the only radio interview. And i did it knowing it would be difficult for listeners to to hear and understand him so i was very patient and i taped it in advance and then edited it And worked a sort of creative approach to it so that it it made perfect sense and and he sent me a personal. Thank you note which was really nice. How did you manage your snag in radio winter. A one particular publicist. I work with a lot of them. thought of all the people out there. I would be the the one. Because i knew i knew everything about him but i also have that sort of hard to believe talking with you. I know but i have that. Very sweet and sensitive side and and understanding and i respect for somebody that age. So it's extremely well hidden. Yes pharaoh mash who played bj. Oh mike farrell Introduced me to father john. O'donoghue i never met the late father. Duck john o'donoghue but became a fan of his philosophy. A great guy very Active in terms of causes and so forth and quite frankly. I don't agree with all of his views on all subjects. But i respect him and by the way a married to you know he's married to yes i actually do. He's married to valley. Our now made that. I know shelly february. i believe. Oh yes you're right and valerie harper is not on the list. I don't think but another doll. I met her and interviewed her. I don't know he's on the list as high sierra. She stilian wave i recall. Okay yes she has sadly nafta break Shelly who's married. people. Internet shelly for braid. The younger one. I think his niece of net or something and she was in The donna reed show. Yes i believe. You're right yep. In a huge hit the name watch was all see. This is where. I i show my weakness when it comes to music. You can edit this outpost. What is johnny angel. Oh johnny angel. Of course yes yes yes. He did sing at all. They said we're gonna make good bad record with They said we could be use. Must be right like being gonorrhea show. She said yes they said. Well you'll be singing this song insurance a away. Donna reed in my estimation sexiest one of one of the top three sexiest women. In hollywood i would agree with that. Just on. Throw it out there absolutely. She was a great All right more. We're doing a lightning round with the jordan rich on the about cats it boomer genetic show on wfan act. But i'm not gonna make believe. I'm i'm this is like make a wish for you bob. So i'm happy to do it. Liza minelli abe was on your show. Tell us about life z. Liza with a z. going in. You expect somebody like liza. Minelli be total diva somebody to be challenging absolutely opposite one of the sweetest kindest people at least in terms of interview i i'd ever met i've we instantly clicked and i loved her loved her. Wow i would guess we've just the whole dating thing. I guess that was my thought going in so. Don't be judgmental. You can't really tell funniest lies of minelli joke this out and post if you want. It was jaylen jay. Leno did it so it can't be that bad jamison a. risk-taker member. She was married to david. Somebody oh yes yes for about a week and yes wrote a week and a half and the rumors were around that he was gay when being gay was like. Oh my god somebody who'll be back then anyway. Jay leno said people are asking if he's gay of course he's gay. He met her at a liza minelli concert. I can see jay telling germany and mineralogy minelli that not a bad impression. Leonard nimoy now. You're talking real hero worship. Because i'm a huge trek fan. And he was very nice to chat with very in thoughtful guy. And of course. You being from boston me being from boston. There's that connection that leonard nimoy in and we have and That was always good in the other connection was he actually knew my dad growing up and they appeared together on an episode of community auditions star of the day. Who will lippi. So they knew each other as as youngsters as young late teens. And that was a real nice can actually but he was great. I ended up interviewing just about everybody from the original star trek cast. How cool take. Oh my goodness you kidding me. The danger is you don't want to become like superfan and start talking about Episode details that any actor would forget as soon as he did it. You know there was a saturday night. Live sketch i it. Shattered himself was on it. Classic star trek convention yup instantly from the audience. Said you know in episode three. What was on the side of the thing thing in the thing and what number and shatner just says matter with you. The tv show move out of your parents may not just girl can alive to famous famous. Snl skit in one of the best exactly Now all right now. Tell me about mickey rooney. Big mickey rooney said well. Mickey rooney appeared with an miller in a show called sugar babies in boston. And that's where we met. We met mickey word. I was not one on one with him. There was a several reporters and interviewers so as sort of a group thing but he made the greatest entrance of anybody. I've ever met in my travels. There's a long staircase at well used to be. The wang theater announced the bok center. It's classic old standard classical theatre with beautiful marble everywhere. And there's this long Staircase with with a staircase railing. Of course he slid down the banister. Basically i know. And that's was in his seventies at the time and he was crazy he was totally off the wall and the show called for that so maybe he was in character. Mickey rooney love love Dick van dyke one of my heroes. I loved comey. Need to and i actually had a dream before. I interviewed him a year or two. I actually the only person ever dreamed about actually interviewing and i never wore. I didn't pursue it at all. I just thought. Well that's interesting. Because i think the world of and then a year later he was doing some kind of promotion for something and i was able to get him Terrific he's ninety five now. I believe still active still performing when when he can and You know he was a he is alcohol and for years he hut hid that. And it's remarkable when you look at the show. The dick van dyke show. He did perform oftentimes hiding his problem. But a just a great warm sweet guy And yeah that's my dream came true. You tell you dreamt about into as a matter of fact i did. I said i said. Please don't take this the wrong way. Mr van dyke but and he. he chuckled. I thought it was. He thought was killed on speaking. The dick van dyke show. You interviewed another one of my ears. Carl reiner will did many things but on the dick van. Dyke show played allen. Brady your Carl reiner was one of my highlights. And i actually talked to him twice for different projects and it would be like sitting down with a great philosopher a greek philosopher of some note. Because here's one of the kings of comedy and and such a thoughtful guy. That's an interesting guy who wrote a lot of books for kids Certainly directed movies talking about a renaissance man. And i it was a thrill and a half. I always said to myself. I'm this close to the guy. Who is that close to mel brooks. How could you not love that. I never talked to. I've not yet talked. Mel brooks carl. Reiner was was amazing. We did a two hour show with him just nonstop. let him go well now. I'm feeling close to melt through to colorado to mel brooks roy. Yes six degrees of jewish separation is what this is exactly. Hey we got no not we but you've got time for maybe Maybe another three minutes or five minutes before the clock runs out. I just want to let you know since this is your show. Thank you very much. You the producer I could do a couple more than a couple of quick. Don rickles fascinated richmond versus. Are you on here. You wanna hear a don rickles impression. Dumb hockey puck now. Is that Everyone knows don rickles and what he did in his stick and all that everyone who knows anything about also knows he's not like that at all but a A thrill as thrilling as it is to have a sandwich named after you at a deli. And i would imagine bob cats and cats ins delhi somewhere is a sandwich is to have don rickles in so step don rickles insult you so i did two things with him. I did a phone interview with a couple of phone interviews with them over the years and he would throw the typical donnas. What are you some kind of our schmuck that kind of stuff and then At the celtic music circus in cohasset it was a setup. And i didn't know what i did i. I'd interviewed him a couple of days before for the radio and get to the show and apparently what they would do is tell don to. You know who's in the audience pick a name. And here's the section. He's in so in the middle of the show. Don rickles is killing just falling over. I hear west jordan wretch and i And i stand up stand up any just insulted me for sixty seconds and it was the greatest feeling in the world. I loved him. He was a a pioneer of comedy. We'll never see the likes of don rickles again and they weren't cellphones around for. I don't have the sunshine. I don't have it on tape. I don't have pictures. Nothing but just approved be insulted by rickles and the question i always have for myself is can would don rickles survive in comedy today with the world so hung up on words and Insult comedy. I know if the best rickles story of a herd but she told it on but which is the sinatra. One of them will anyway. Apparently don was dating new women. This was years ago and he went into a restaurant date with sinatra's there until he's he sits down in his day he says excuse me goes over. The doctrine says prank new date here. I really want to impress her. Would you mind coming over to the table. A few minutes saying hi. You'll be really impressed. That i know not frank said shore gun. I'll be happy to though weeks. A few minutes frank finally comes over. Ghana's data reading training says don rickles says frank. I do not to bother me while me yet. Get out of here frank. Isn't that beautiful. Isn't that so perfect or the story. But that joe laugh every time. Every time i see it all right the That johnny mathis and then one more after that. Johnny it'd be better in medford the place. Oh named after the frenchman. I can't remember the name off the top of my head. Were we're old here bob. The chevallier chevelle. Lia johnny mathis is one of those guys. He's totally ageless. I mean he's been doing this since one thousand nine hundred fifty three and I have no idea how old he is. He's he's definitely up there but he's He's just the way he appears. He's a very mellow guy. And very sweet guy and his voice is remarkably similar. The way it was back in may not hit all the notes but he's he's darned good You know. Willie nelson's another one. That just never ages really. Of course it's a lot of marijuana keeping him going but age with the funding caroline kennedy. Here yes that was an interesting one. i i had the opportunity to do that at the kennedy library and it was a lot like interviewing or being in the presence of royalty in the sense that you know everything was set up very delicately and carefully and and i think the reason is obvious because she's a kennedy but also because she is delicate and fragile liked her very very much he was very sweet but I could have gone in there and and slugged it out and ask questions. That would've gotten me tossed quickly about the kennedy curse and the kennedy scandals. But that wasn't my intent. Was i was not there for that reason so we had a great conversation about things she really wanted to talk about is only like maybe ten of the justice. It's not from the people who are of the end of jordan's book which by the way is called my fifth year love affair with radio by jordan rich use available at amazon amazon dot com and all the proceeds. This is the kind of guy. George did i wanna marriage. But he's match is getting all the profits from the book to children's hospital in the authors. Do that just mentioned telling you. You're it's the least. I can do for for people to read it as is a real honor and and for me again. It's i. I didn't do it because i needed the money. I did it. Because i wanted to tell the story. So bob A this has been a really interesting Deal i actually studied up on you. And i read your bio. I interviewed people to get the full story. And i got none of it out of your interview. People who winter. Oh i spoke with sarah several of my sources at the fbi. I talked with various Restaurants tours from the north end and south end I talk with a bagel manufacturers. I the president to brewers bagels to get the full story on the bagel thing. And i got nothing. Well you know whatever rim shots Pulse but i did deliver bagels. But my brother and i got tired of ball whole business. The business come down cd to me. i don't know. I don't know we made a lot of joe. I'm sure you did. I'm sure you did and You were as you were raising yourselves up from the. Let's stop right now. All of a sudden. I realize everything i've done to this point in my career has come crashing down on this podcast now would like you to do is. This was a funny moment on jay. leno show. Why should do the same with me. he had steve martin as a guest. You probably saw this. So and steve was the first guest on big huge time and then jay says as he often did the. I guess i know you have to go Movie or something and steve. I gotta go karts carts. I say leno was carsoup. Sorry carson go to break in. Steve martin comes out and just start crying this with the matter. I don't have to go anywhere. I just wanted to say they going to make a movie and the the whole show. John's you can stay for the whole show. If i could do that would be like bob. We know you gotta go. Gotta put thing if i could reach through the the portal known as zoom in pat. Your little keeper. I would do that but those who don't know look it up. I would definitely do that and This was fun actually. I didn't see it coming. That's the best part. Absolutely love it or jordan. I had trouble mailing down a date. Then i'm old and jordan's almost as old as i am. I think i mixed up in this that and the today i just said you know this'll be fun would just turn the tables on jordan and then maybe on bite me back and i could talk all about myself. Anything you know once sufficient joy of big shots on we have big shots all the time absolutely twice. Because you're a you're a good good boy. You're a good little boy you really are and you brought in all seriousness folks He won't like me saying this. I'll say it anyway. Bob's been a very very Dependable entertainer in boston market. For many many many years and a lot of people have a lot of fun when they get to know you and you have a lot of fans out there so i hope that they enjoyed. Let's call this a bonus episode of your show. Well i you know not on next sunday either because the show was with we get next. Yeah we won't tape it. But i'll let you talk to me for an hour and and we'll just bucket list. Yeah while i'm doing the dishes or you know my stamp collection. I'll just keep the phone open and W whatever you wanna hear it's fine all right you little man. You're the best really are your true magic. I don't know what mentioned means. Google it and it will basically say see rich. George your bob cats and thank you so much jordan rich. Thank you very much. Thanks again. I think to bob katzen a man of mystery who turned the tables on me and it was a lot of fun. He continues to make a lot of people very happy. Thanks as always dante boa fast. Which media ken carberry and all the folks at trump productions in boston where the podcast is produced and of course a hearty. Thank you to all of those. Who subscribe and download the podcast. We appreciate that very much and you can find out more about me. My book on air my fifty year love affair with radio with all proceeds benefiting a great charity. Children's hospital in boston. Find out more at jordan. Rich dot com. Till next time this is easing as always be well. So you can do good take care.

bob cats Wbz bob jordan rich rossi norm nathan don rickles mrs parks arbel jordan Casey stephen boston Sherman bears mr whipple sherry chelsea lou grant martin rossi allen allen
JFK & Jackie | After Camelot | 3

Even the Rich

46:00 min | 6 months ago

JFK & Jackie | After Camelot | 3

"Join wondering plus to listen to even the rich ad free in the wondering app. Download the wondering app and your apple or google. Play mobile app store today. This episode contains descriptions of birth trauma and violence that may be distressing for some listeners. Please be advised heads up. We're gonna swear. Yeah that's why they're here. It's two pm on air force. One jackie staring at the clothes laid out for her on her bed. A white dress simple jacket and black shoes ever since she became first lady. She's put so much thought and care into each of her outfits she's always had six cents for look. Each public event required first. Ladies might not be elected. But it doesn't mean they don't have power for jackson augural ball off white silk chiffon gown paired with a regal kate. She designed herself when she visited india. She wore bright oranges and greens contribute to the country's love of vivid colors. It was diplomacy through fashion and she played her role very well. She chose her current. Look a stitch by stitch reproduction of a design from paris fashion week. Because jack wanted her to one of the society ladies at lunch they'd be wearing mink coats and diamond bracelets show them what good taste really. Is jack winked. They picked it out together. A simple but perfectly cut skirt-suit in wolf klay but now everyone's hinting that. She should change that. Her next stop will require something different but jockey's not so sure if only she could think straight but she's exhausted her mind is buzzing her thoughts. Feel as well as the hub of the jet's engines and just as loud. She wishes she could just turn things down off. Even maybe then have a moment's peace. Maybe then she can make a decision vice president johnson's wife lady bird nox than pokes her head in. Can i send someone to help you change. Jackie shakes her head. No that's alright. Lady bird gestures to the bed. We've also laid out some towels for you. Jackie nods just enough to assure lady bird that she's heard her. The door closes with a click. Jackie takes a blue hand towel from the top of the stack and takes a few shaky steps to the bathroom. She studies herself against the wall. Then continues its so hot on the plane. It's like she's moving underwater and the bathroom. She flicks on the lights for a moment. She doesn't understand what she seeing her reflection in the mirror might as well be cubist painting her face makes no sense. The colors make no sense. She slowly brings the towel up to her face and wipes away one long streak of read. It feels wrong very very wrong but now she knows what she's going to do. She's not going to change she. Lets the towel. Drop to the floor. Lady bird sticks her head and again. Jackie we're ready for you. jackie knots. Her stockings are stiff with dried blood. It's caked onto her jacket and matted into her hair but she knows that these next few moments are going to live on in history. The world needs to remember what happened to her husband. The unjustness the violence of it. She takes a deep. Breath straightens the navy collar on her pink suit and strides out to the main cabin. She takes her place next to lbj. He holds one hand up and places. The other on the bible flashbulbs pop. But jackie doesn't flinch. She keeps her head held high even though her thoughts are miles and miles away because even though her heart is breaking. Jackie has worked to do. She has to make sure the world remembers him. She has to find a way to hold onto her jack from wondering. I'm a recess. Get more williams and brooks different and this is even the rich in our last episode. Jfk and jackie made it to the white house and began to turn it into a proper home but just as finally learning how to live together. Another tragedy will tear them apart. This is episode three after camelot. So arista have you spent time board shopping or even anxiety shopping during quarantine and occasionally asked yourself. Why did i just buy that. Or who have i become okay. You definitely know the answer to that all right. Well then i have the podcast for you. Add to cart from lebanon media is a super fund series that explores modern day consumerism. Each week comedian kuepper lisek and journalists. Suzan pock unleash their unbiased opinions on products fads celebrities philosophies and anything else on their mind add to cart is all about the things we buy and the things we buy into like those can buccio have staying power are we over tiktok yet. Add to cart from lebanon media has new episodes dropping each tuesday. Subscribe to add to cart on apple. Spotify stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you ever question what you eat where it's from if it safe at consumer reports these things keep them up at night then they get to work. Their team exposes toxins in food and even water than demands change from all brands. It's only fair that you know what's on your plate so make sure what you eat is safe and healthy because food should fuel us not make a sick and if we are what we eat it better be good learn more at consumer reports dot org slash my food that's consumer reports dot org slash my food. It's may twenty third one thousand nine hundred sixty three in new york city another birthday gala for the president. The grand ballroom at the waldorf. Astoria is a buzz. with women. In gowns and men in tuxedos they drink from crystal glasses filled with pinot noir and nibble on fillet of beef. Asparagus holidays the food is elegant. But the mood is tense as the waiters. Come to collect their plates but guest brace themselves for this year's young starlet to shimmy out and sing happy birthday to the president. No one's forgotten maryland's performance as the mc announces the special guest. The crowds is moved from the stage to jackie. Seated right next to jack audrey hepburn glides up to the mike oh shit jackson fling up but jacqui just smiles and it's not a fake smile. either i imagined. She leans into jack and takes his hand. Maybe she whispers something teasing and jack laughs under his breath. Jackie isn't worried about audrey. she's not worried about any other women. Her marriage is stronger than it's ever been since she refused to leave. Dc during the cuban missile crisis. To stay by jack side everything's changed. Hey speaking of missiles does that mean. Jack is finally keeping his in his pants no actually but he is a lot more discreet than he used to be. he started to realize what he's really gotten. Jackie a true partner. When jack gives his advisors silver-plated calendars from tiffany's to commemorate the thirteen days of the crisis. He makes sure to order one. Extra any gives it to jackie. The person who did more than anyone else to get him through. Jackie keeps that calendar on her desk for the rest of her life. Oh that's sweet and sad. Yeah it's taken almost ten years of marriage but she finally feels seen so as audrey hepburn starts to sing. Jackie just hold her husband's hand and places the other on her growing stomach. Wait he up. Jackie's pregnant again and life feels full of possibility. Jack is feeling hopeful to. She always thought he would die young but after the world could have ended but didn't he started to finally let himself plan for the future. You can even hear it in his speeches. I want to read you part of a state of the union speech from that year home. I mean i want you to read part of the state of the union speech from that year of figuring thank you. I'm sure nobody's sick of this yet but we cannot be satisfied to rest here. This is the side of the hill. Not the top. The mayor absence of war is not peace. The mere absence of recession is not growth. We have made a beginning but we have only begun. See it's like he's finally realising how much more he can accomplish if he allows himself the possibility of future and how much more fun he can have to so during the workweek in dc. He tries to stop nuclear proliferation and head off future crises and on the weekends if is back to hyannis port and takes everyone for ice cream. Just like jackie. He feels like he finally has it. All he's managed to accomplish nearly everything he set out to do. Which is why what happens. Next is so painful. It's wednesday august seventh. Nineteen sixty three in cape cod. Jackie beams with pride. She watches caroline jumper. Pony over cross rails. Jackie enrolled her kids horseback riding lessons on pretty much. The day they started walking and she can't wait to do the same for her unborn baby. She laughs as john. John is lifted up to a horse. And his little legs dangle over the side but as she watches her children ride she suddenly feels a cramp. her body goes clammy with fear. She's five and a half weeks before her due date. Then another cramp comes. Jackie turns to the secret service agent nearby and tells him they need to go now. Jackie's rushed from hyannis port. To the hospital at otis air force base by helicopter. I'm scared to ask. But where's jack. He's in the oval office working on a speech that he's going to deliver to congress. But when jack here's that jackie was taken to otis. He drops everything. He jumps on a helicopter and books at two massachusetts. It's night and day from her pregnancy. With arabella jack racist to jackie side to be with her when he arrives. She's just coming out of surgery so he meets their son before. Jackie does patrick. Kennedy weighs four pounds ten and a half ounces. Oh he's so tiny so little and so sick. He's immediately placed in an incubator because he's having trouble breathing. His chances of survival are fifty fifty. Oh jack consults with a pediatric specialists. Who tells them to send patrick to the children's hospital in boston sent him now. He says you don't have a moment to lose so jack flies with patrick to boston without jackie. She still recovering from surgery and can't be moved. She never even gets a chance to hold him poor. Jackie she's been through so much too much and the world is watching every step of the way. This is the first pregnancy and the white house since eighteen. Ninety three and america's had front row seats to jacky's entire pregnancy. So when they hear she's gone into labor. The media scrambles to cover the birth. It's jackie's worst nightmare. She such a private person. Exactly jack tells the medic back at otis to disable the tv and jackie's room. So she can't even turn it on when the medic can't figure out an easy way to do that he pulls off the back of the set and smashes a random tube. That does the trick. Jack scared that if something happens to patrick the press might find before jackie and he doesn't want her to learn about it on the news. That's actually a really smart move on his part. When jack arrives at the hospital in boston the doctors tell him that the next forty eight hours are critical. There's nothing jack can do but wait. So that's just what jack does he waits and he prays and he waits and he praised some more early friday morning. The doctors tell jack that they've tried everything. There's nothing more they can do. They let him hold his newborn son in a dark quiet hallway. Jack holds his tiny fingers. just after. Four a m. Patrick dies in his father's arms a few moments later. A nurse takes the baby from him. Jack walks away into an empty room closing the door behind him. Then he sits on the side of the bed and weeps. Oh this is heartbreaking. It really is and patrick. Staff is a watershed moment for jack visits. Jackie twice a day at the hospital reads to her and tries desperately to cheer her up and by some accounts he even decides to stop sleeping around way. Is that really true. The romantic in me wants to believe that this whole experience knock some sense into him. But we can't know for sure i'm guessing. He realized how much jackie means to him and that she needs him to step up and be a better husband. A week later jackie's finally released from the hospital but as she leaves. She's confronted by a mob of photographers and is right there. Next to her he reaches out for her hand and she holds onto it tightly. Jackie forces a smile as the photographers. Snap away inside. She's hiding more pain than she's ever felt before the last thing she wants to do is share it with the world. It's her pain. it's her loss not bears. She wants to grieve privately. But as the first lady that's almost impossible for the summer and fall jackie's mood darkens. She isolates herself from almost everyone. Jack does what he can. But jackie pulls away even from him then. Her sister lee invites her to join her on her. Boyfriend's yacht for few weeks in greece to jackie. Getting out of dc where her loss is still front page. News sounds pretty good. Lease new boyfriend is none other than aristotle onassis. One of the richest men in the world is yacht is as fancy as you'd imagine the bathroom fixtures are plated in gold and the rods are made a blue lapis. There's an olympic sized saltwater pool a ballroom and a private screening room. there's plenty of space for jackie to get away from the relentless media coverage okay. That's baller status. It's perfect for jackie. And she loves the idea of a trip around the mediterranean. But jack begs her not to go. Aristotle's made some shady dealings with dictators and he has connections with organized crime. According to jack this guy is an actual pirate. Okay i'm trying to think of a good pun about booty. Just come back to me okay. Jackie doesn't backed out. She's put up with his ship for years. Now it's her turn to do what she needs. in october. She takes off on her trip and the air does help. Jackie turn a corner. it also doesn't hurt that. Aristotle or airy for short is a very attentive host. He puts her in the yachts nicest cabin and make sure. There's plenty of champagne on ice. Because he's heard it's jackie's favorite drink. He tells her the will go wherever she wants. Jackie and ari have actually met once before back when. Jackie was just the senator's wife but she made an impression after that first meeting eri remarked to a friend. She wasn't conspicuously friendly. She had a way of making you look at her. He went on to say. He suspected that she had a carnal seoul. Okay so then. He starts dating her sister i know. Now the jackie's on his boat he's very happy to spend time with her which leaves lee seething with jealousy but the whole cruise is exactly what. Jackie needed she. Water skis eats caviar and sunbathes she drinks dom perignon and let's lose two bazooka music on the yachts mosaic tile. Dance floor in fact. She has such a good time. The press starts taking notice and not in a good way the boston globe this sort of behavior of fitting for women in morning. I'll fuck them. Yeah but jackie decides that a hit to her. Image is a small price to pay. Especially if it means she gets to be a regular person for five fucking minutes jack pleads with her to come home but she basically tells him listen. I love you. But i'll come home when i'm good and ready. Yes queen. Jackie finally returns home at the end of october and cheat instantly. Regret staying away so long. Not because of the bad press but because jack looked so much more gaunt and tired than when she left over dinner jack is much more quiet than usual normally. He talks through their meals. But lately jackie's the one who's been filling in the silences tonight. Jack hasn't spoken in a while but then he leans towards jackie and tells her he has a question for her. Jackie puts down her silverware and listens. I imagine he says something like look. I know you're going to say no. But i thought i'd ask anyway. You know. I need to get my numbers up before sixty four will you campaign in texas with me just three days and then maybe we can take a small vacation off. The grid. jackie's never actually join jack's presidential campaign before after chicago. Jack's always known better than to ask she tenses up around big crowds and squirms when she forced into small talk by she studies. Jack's face his eyes look so sad. She's left him alone too long so she takes his hand and she gives him an answer that surprises them. Both she says yes we get support from hellofresh and my mouth is watering. I know. I absolutely love hellofresh. They make my life easier by sending premeasured ingredients and mouth-watering seasonal recipes. Right to my door. yeah. I love it. I can skip all that stressful meal planning and those trips to the grocery store and count on hellofresh to make home cooking. Easy fun and affordable. It's probably why it's america's number one meal kit. They offer over twenty five recipes to choose from each week from vegetarian meals to craft burgers an extra special gourmet options. If you're planning on having an extra special evening are you trying to ask me over to cook me. Something really special. Because i'm fine with that. Yup that's exactly what i'm doing now. Okay i'll hop on a plane I love hellofresh and it's been so much fun cooking with my parents. We recently made the mozzarella pesto burgers. And oh my gosh. It's hard for me to choose my favorite part about hellofresh because it's so easy to follow. The food is amazing and have food delivered right to your door is truly the easiest part about cooking. It really is i. Honestly i have not had a bad meal at hellofresh. they've all been dilemmas. So you guys can go to hellofresh dot com slash even the rich twelve and use code even the rich twelve. That's even the rich one. Two for twelve free meals including free shipping. One time that's hellofresh dot com slash. Even the rich twelve code even the rich twelve months. Jackie will always remember the puzzled. Look on jack's face after the first bullet hit like he's stopping to consider a difficult question and then he's in her lap. His eyes are open their pure blue as she cradles his head. Her white gloves become red. She the hardness of the floor against her knees as she praised. The doctors keep shouting. Get out get out. But she won't leave the room when she finally stands up. The ham of her skirt is wet with blood at one pm. The doctors paula white sheet over his body. One of jack's feet pokes out and she kisses it and then she pulls the sheet off him and kisses his leg his tie his chest and then his lips. No one says a word ninety minutes later. Jackie is still wearing her blood. Stained suit on air force one. She wears it standing next to lbj. As he takes his oath she wears it on the plane and she wears it while. Jack's coffin is carried through the white house. Oh that's a long time to be covered in blood. it really is. She doesn't change out of her suit until four. Am november twenty third but keeping that sudan was just the first step. they're still a lot of work ahead including planning. Jack's funeral okay. There have to be people who can do that for her. Oh there definitely are. But jackie knows. She has to be the to do it. It doesn't matter that she never wants to see another soul again. The funeral needs to be as big and public as possible jackie's exhausted but determined she models it. After the funeral of the most famous assassinated president in american history abraham lincoln on the day of the funeral riderless horse polls. Jack's casket to saint matthews cathedral. White house officials urge her to ride behind it in a cadillac but she insists she'll walk world leaders from ninety two nations. Choose to walk behind her she wants the world's is on her husband. And they are more than a million people lined the street. They watch an almost complete silence as jackie cloaked in black walks by them. The only sounds are the rhythmic drumbeat of the marine corps drama and the synchronized clump of their feet. As they march at the gravesite jack receives a twenty one gun salute. Jackie flinches at each shot but keeps her back straight and her chin high house aide later. Said we were supposed to be the tough ones. But this frail girl turned out to have more strengthen any of us frail girl. Okay that's a straight up warrior. Yeah and she's about to go even bigger. Just because jack became president doesn't mean history's going to remember him. Not every president stays a household name especially when they haven't even served a complete term to make sure the world never forgets him. Jackie needs to appeal to myth. Not history. She needs to turn jack into a legend. It's the day after thanksgiving four days after jfk's burial the sky is slate grey and a cold. Rain is tapping against theodore h whites car window. The journalist is on his way to hyannis port summoned by jackie herself. Life magazine is holding the presses at a cost of thirty thousand dollars an hour for whatever story. He'll be filing. Wow he's probably thinking this better be good fucking story. Yeah he is so but he's not even sure what the story will be on. The phone jackie's voice sounded urgent but she was really vague. She said she had something. She wanted to tell the nation but she wouldn't say what it was when white arrives at half past eight jacky greets him at the door. She moved slowly like she's in a trance. Within a couple of minutes. They've taken seats opposite each other on low. Sofas in the living room. Jackie lights a cigarette and barely seems to know she's smoking. Wow she's smoking in front of a reporter. Yeah she's pretty out of it. Our girl is going a lot for is are vacant. White tries to get her talking. What did she want to tell the nation. He has his no pat out and his pens at the ready but jackie's not really listening instead. She starts reciting every detail of the day. Her husband died. She describes the oppressive heat of the texas son. And the sound of the shot. It sounded like a motorcycle backfiring. She describes the look on. Jack's face after the second shot and the of his skull fragments. Oh god but her words come out in calm even monotone. yeah. I mean she's got is still in shock. Yeah today she might have been diagnosed with. Ptsd which tracks for shore white dutifully take notes. But he knows life magazine won't be able to print any of the details. They're way too graphic to upsetting. But then. Jackie remembers where she is. She collects herself and makes eye contact with white. Here's what i wanted to tell you. She says she sounded like herself again. It's become almost an obsession with me on jack quoted something. It was usually classical. But i'm so ashamed of myself. I keep thinking about this line from a musical comedy. Hey no judgment for me. I'm always thinking about musical comedies. I mean big hamilton. Fan over here. So i get it. But jackie's eyes flick down to whites pen to make sure he's writing. He is so. Jackie continues before they went to sleep. She and jack would throw open the door between their rooms at night and play records on their old victoria jackson. Favourite record was the cast recording of camelot. About the legend of king arthur and his roundtable. It was an age of daring and romantic deeds. An age in which england briefly existed in perfect harmony. His favorite moment on the record came near the end when richard burton things. Don't let it be forgot that once there was a spot for one brief shining moment that was known as camelot. Jackie waits for whites pen to catch up with her then continues. That's what jack's time in office was wasn't it. It was camelot. And while there will be great presidents again there will never be another camelot. I see what she's doing making her man a legend At midnight white takes his notes into a spare bedroom and types. His story forty-five minutes later. He presented to jackie. Who takes it to the kitchen table. Jackie and her pencil then get to work she slashes out sentences and reorders lines she adds words and changes punctuation marks at two white dictates his story to life magazine from the kitchen while phone while jackie sits next to him and listens once she hears his editors pushing back against the camelot beam. Jackie shakes her head at white. No that needs to stay and in the end. Jackie gets her way eventually. Jackie returns to the white house. It was the place she made into a home for jack and the kids and after renovating the family quarters. Jackie had finally started working on the office. The grand reveal was up for the day they'd return from texas. Oh no that's awful right. Jack never even got to see it. Jackie visits but it's lbj's office. Now she has to quickly pack up jack things as she's cleaning up. She empties. jack's desk and finds to yellowing newspaper. Clippings both are from april nineteen sixty to get your tissues ready. Brooke okay at this point. I'm out of tissues. I'll just use my sleeve. Both clippings are about jackie. Not jack. The first article covers jackie's goodwill trip to pakistan. And how sad. She was that her husband couldn't join her and the second article praises jackie on her trip to india. She absolutely dazzled the foreign dignitaries. And the press. But jackie doesn't have time to find. Tissues are even used her sleeve. The countdowns on for getting out of the white house she needs to keep moving. Can't lbj and lady bird. Just let her crash a couple more weeks. Yeah they're not monsters. They tell her to stay as long as she needs. But sleeping with a view of the perfectly trimmed south lawn feels like very fancy cars surfing. So jackie immediately gets to work packing her kids belongings and sorting through jack stuff. What does she say for herself. In what does she put aside for. Posterity i mean i probably just be like throwing a box and maybe i'll get one day because i cannot handle it right now. Yeah i've got a lot of boxes. I have yet to handle. But jackie keeps busy. Like her life depends on it. She meets with lady bird to give her the ins and outs of living in the white house she responds to sympathy cards which have been flooding the mailroom. She writes handwritten notes to everyone in the white house who served her and her husband including gardeners the kitchen staff and the switchboard operators. She makes a point of thanking everyone in person to now that is a class act. Yes she really is. On december six nine hundred sixty four two weeks to the day of jack steph. Jackie dresses carolina jan in matching blue pea coats. It's the same ones. They wore to their father's funeral. She takes their little hands and walk them through the west wing and out the door. They passed the rose garden that she lovingly designed and then they climb into a black limousine waiting for them on the south lawn in the quiet of the backseat of the limo. Jackie finally has a moment of stillness debris as they pull away from the white house. She realizes it's the last home she'll have shared with her husband with her. Children held close jackie barrels towards an undetermined an unknown future and she realizes that she has no idea what comes next. Have you ever said to yourself. I love the fact that. I've had the same few pairs of sheets just after college. And i never liked them then but i keep washing them every week or two and putting them back on the bed like it's totally normal Know exactly. Nobody says that everyone wants a better more luxurious sheets. And we're about to make that a whole lot easier for you. Richie's that's right. It's time to get to know brooklyn brooklyn and is the first direct to consumer betting company. They work directly with manufacturers to make luxury available directly to you without the luxury level markups. They've got a variety of sheets colors patterns and materials to fit your needs and tastes plus. Their name has broken it. And that's just one of my favorite words. I get it because my name fairy sweeter asia so we actually just started redoing our bedroom so these sheets could not have come at a more perfect time. And i absolutely loved them. I got the cream color. They look perfect with my comforter. Soft them hello. Pieces are soft which is super important to me. Because i have sensitive skin. Yeah i absolutely love the feel of these sheets. I'm super particular. About how many sheets feel in. These are just pure cotton and i love it. Yes definitely ritchie's all you have to do is go to brooklyn and dot com and use promo code rich and you'll get twenty dollars off when you spend one hundred dollars or more plus free shipping that's b. r. o. k. l. i n. e. n. dot com and enter promo code rich to get twenty dollars off when you spend one hundred dollars or more plus free shipping brooklyn and dot com promo code rich at checkout if you love grey's anatomy and station nineteen as much as we do that. You've got to check out rebel. The bold new drama coming thursdays to abc. I for one cannot wait. Same it starts fabulous. Katy seagal is inspired by erin. Brockovich is life today. I mean is that perfect casting. Or what yeah. Katie plays rebel. A smart and savvy legal advocate. Who isn't afraid to stand up for the people who need her most no matter how many rules she has to bend or break along the way and it's from an executive producer of grey's anatomy and station nineteen. So you know there's gonna be lots of juicy twists and some series lead good drama between rebel and the men in her life. And i am here for it. Rebel premieres thursday at ten nine central after grays on abc mama. It's the spring of nineteen sixty. Four jackie's up every night thinking about the number three. Wait why the number three. That's the number of seconds between the first bullet struck jack and the second cheese. I'm gonna stop asking questions now because the story is just way too depressing. It gets better. I promise just not yet okay. Can we just do like a quick summary. Skip to the happy part. I can try vodka cigarettes. Nightmares vodka cigarettes nightmare. Okay stop just go ahead. Dallas story okay. So obviously jackie's hurting she's obsessing over jack's death trying to figure out if she could have done anything differently maybe if she'd recognize the sound of that first shot maybe if she'd pull jack down after the second shot maybe if she looked left instead of right she keeps trying to move on. But it's hard to do in dc. She's living in borrow townhouse in the middle of georgetown and every night crowds. Gather outside to stand vigil. That's sweet but also really unhelpful. Oh yeah i'm a crowds. Just keep getting bigger at some point. Jack's grave and jackie's townhouse become legit tourist attractions tour buses. Keep on rumbling up and down the street and to you're right we have the grieving widow. Who's now justifiably scared of crowds and loud noises. So let's scream our support as we drive by ready exactly and when jackie leaves her house. She's hounded by reporters and photographers. Finally she says enough is enough and tries to start over new york. She scoops up a penthouse apartment directly across the street from central park. It has a private elevator that opens directly into her own foyer which means less chance of running into people in the hallway. Exactly this new pad is the perfect refuge from the world and bobby. Who's maybe the one person in the world feels. The of jack as profoundly as jackie does is now living in new york to. She leans on him for support and bit by bit. She starts to feel more like herself. She starts to go out of the house again. One morning she takes a walk through central park a few days later. She checks out an antique shop. She has lunch with one friend than dinner with another. She goes to a polo match in westchester. A fox hunt to new jersey and then water skis on a trip to mexico. She travels a lot almost like she's afraid of staying in one place for too long. She updates herald book. No more conservative. First lady suits or pillbox hats. Now it's mini skirts cropped white jeans and black turtlenecks. Okay steve. jobs could never. oh never. it's summer nineteen sixty five when the tabloids catch on they publish pictures of the grieving widow having fun attending events even gasp dancing at a club in one picture. She's walking through rome barefoot. One headline screams for mourner to swinger judgy. Totally for the most part. Jackie doesn't care but justice. Jackie is starting to get her groove back. Her world is once again turned upside down. Bobby's shot oh my god. I know bobby was running for president. Just like jack. In fact he just won the california primary and given a brief victory speech jockeys in london when she hears the news and she immediately takes a private plane to california when she arrives. Bobby is still hanging on by a thread. But he doesn't live through the night show. I said it was out of tissues. I know i'm sorry. Bobby's death froze. Jackie into another tailspin. And it makes her wonder if she'll ever be safe. She tells a friend if they're killing kennedys than my children are targets. I want to get out of this country. I mean after all this. I feel like jackie deserves. Her own desert island agreed. And that's also a jockey things so she makes a decision that a lot of people won't understand and really won't like she marries onassis. The greek shipping tycoon. Whose had his eye on her for years. Finally that pirate gets his booty. There's the pun there. It is worth the wait. Since jack's death jackie's been courted by frank sinatra phillip roth marlon brando. Basically every bachelor but ari has something that none of those other men do a security force to rival the secret service and his own private island. Skorpios scorpio's that sounds like the name of a bond villains layer. It does jackie's friends and family think it's a horrible idea. Ariz in his sixties old enough to be her dad and he's made his fortune by cutting deals with fascist leaders. The press those in for the kill. Let me read you some headlines from right after their wedding america has lost a saint. Jackie how could you and jeff kennedy dies a second time today harsh. Yeah it's gross privately. Though jackie pushes back she tells her friends that this is exactly what jack would've wanted. She's keeping her family safe. And for a while jackie's new life seems to be exactly what she needs. She hosts parties under the stars. She finds solace in the sea air. She learns how to speak greek. of course she does. Maybe a part of her thinks she can live on an island forever but life doesn't ever work out that way. The marriage is pretty much. Doomed from the beginning ari wants to go out to clubs and show off his new wife. But jackie just wants to curl up in bed with a novel and ariz. Kids hate her. His son refers to jackie as gold. Digger is daughter calls hurt. The black widow is that I think i'm detecting some flavor notes. Sexism i'm picking up to ari ignores their jabs until his son dies. In a plane crash an ari starts to unravel. He refuses to believe the crash was an accident. And when he can't find the culprit. He turned superstitious. Maybe his daughters right. Maybe jackie brings death wherever she goes. Maybe the crash is her fault. Okay those top notes of misogyny are really coming through now Ari actually re writes his will leaving almost all of his fortune to his daughter and he has his lawyer to drop divorce papers but before the lawyer gets the chance ari collapses and a few weeks later he dies. Jackie loses husband number two and of course his money are revised will gives her a yearly stipend. But it's not what she expects. And almost all of jackie's own wealth is tied up in real estate and art clothes and jewelry. She's what's called cash-poor god one of these days i really wanna be cash. Poor you and me. Both new york becomes her home base again and she starts showing up at clothing. Resale shops with her arms full of her fabulous couture to sell off finally during a round of afternoon. Tea and manhattan. One of her best east suggest. Jackie try getting a job. Jacky's skeptical at first. She's like who me work. She spent a housewife for two decades. What could she possibly do. Her friend has an answer. She tells jacqui she has a good brain and she's organized. She's seen the world and done interesting things. Why not work in publishing. She encourages jackie to get in touch with a mutual friend. Who runs a large publishing house. And jackie starts warming up to the idea. It's the second week of september. Nineteen seventy five when jackie shows up for day one at her new part-time editing job with viking. Press in new york city wo- full circle back to her vogue internship totally and jackie's determined to be just like everybody else in the office no special treatment but that's easier said than done. Suddenly everyone in the world knows exactly where she is while she settles into her cramped one window office and gets to work fans storm the waiting. Room with manuscripts. She just has to read reporters ring the office demanding interviews people call in bomb threats. But jackie ignores it all her co workers get used to seeing her in the break room making her own coffee and waiting in line at the copy machine and getting tipsy on nog at the holiday party Best part of a job. Yep slowly she starts to think of this job as a refuge the one place where she can totally be herself girl who loved to curl up with a good book. Maybe she can help create books. Other people will love and it turns out. She's a natural at editing. Just like she knew how to shape the story of jack's presidency. She knows how to shape other people's stories to her part. Time gig turns into a full time job and after two years she ends up going to another baker publishing house. Jackie never writes her own autobiography but if she did these years would probably be her favorite chapters. She's no longer jackie. O or mrs john f. kennedy or even queen deb. She's just jackie. Got enough for me. Neto and this. Jackie is all the things she's always been smart capable and pathetic stubborn and stylish. But she's doing it all on her own without a man in fact jackie's publishing career last longer than both her marriages combined. She helps bring more than one hundred books to publication and continues to edit manuscripts until the final days of her life using her own money. Jackie designs and builds her dream house by the sea. It's just a short boat ride away from the kennedys place in hyannis port. But it's far more private and more importantly it's all hers there. She can dig her toes into the sand. Swim out into the surf and breathe the ocean air. She's finally found the freedom. She was seeking as a girl at the beach all those years ago. Now she can sit back and think i did this. This is the final episode of our three part series jfk. Jackie if you like our show please give us a five star rating and review and be sure to tell. Your friends subscribe on apple podcast amazon music the wondering app or wherever. You're listening right now. Join wandering plus in the wondering app to listen ad free. You'll also find some lincoln offers from our sponsors in the episode notes. Please support them by supporting them. You help us often you this show for free another way you can support. The show is filling out a small survey at one dot com slash survey. We used many sources when researching this episode like the new york times the washington post sanity fair and the john f kennedy library but we especially recommend jacqueline. Bouvier kennedy onassis the untold story by barbara. Leeming these few precious days by christopher anderson. Jackie as editor by greg lawrence and the death of a president by william manchester. I'm arista skidmore williams. And i'm brooks different. Elizabeth cozinne wrote this episode editing by alison rhymer our audio engineer. Sergio and rica's sound design by james morgan. Our producer is natalie shisha. Our associate producer. Is kate young are executive producers. Are stephanie jen's jenny. Lower backman and marshal louis for wondering time david brown the host of the business wars podcast and author of our new book. The art of business wars the art of business wars features. Great stories from history's greatest business rivalries and the stories are fascinating. That's for sure but the lessons. We draw from them about determination ingenuity patients in all the other traits of the victorious. Enterprise are invaluable. Whether you're just coming up in your career or are already a ceo to order your copy today. Go to wonder dot com slash the art of business wars.

jackie Jackie jack Jack patrick hyannis white house jackson augural jackie knots kuepper lisek Suzan pock tiktok jack audrey hepburn caroline jumper otis air force arabella jack boston otis lebanon
Mayor Janey's Attempt To Fire Police Commissioner White Put On Hold

Radio Boston

48:32 min | 4 months ago

Mayor Janey's Attempt To Fire Police Commissioner White Put On Hold

"Support for radio boston. And the following message come from the peabody essex museum presenting the pem cast conversations and stories for the culturally curious from meditative art to the origin of sea shanties. The pem cast expands your world. Find it on your podcast app. Or at p. e. m. dot org. This is radio boston. I'm donna during the ongoing battle between acting boston. Mayor janey and dennis white the police commissioner. She's attempting to fire has become kind of a standard bearer for how cities can and can't move forward on police reform and police oversight. Now we've been following this story closely here on radio. Boston and the legal battle went two more rounds in the last twenty. Four hours with results. That kind of telegraph where we might be going on this. Wb l. manning's here to catch us up allie. Welcome back thanks for having me all right. So ellie. This is kind of this is gnarly. We know there are a few big picture legal gray areas whether mary. Jane was justified in trying to fire the commissioner weather. The mayor has the power as acting. Merit to fire the commissioner so dennis white had asked a judge to basically say you may continue serving and not be fired while these legal questions get sorted out. He also asked for a hearing where he would be able to call witnesses and try to clear his name. We got a ruling from the superior court judge on this request to stop things from white yesterday. What did the judge say. Yes so in short. She said the city can move forward with firing white. She says white can always pursue monetary damages going forward if he thinks the firing was improper but she did put a hold on her order today. While white appeals it. So that's going to slow down. His expected firing widsom. Jim sorry wait. So she made a ruling yesterday and then today suspended her own ruling because he's appealing yesterday's ruling right. He's he's appealed it to a single justice of the state appeals court so we need to wait for that justice to say yes he does have a case. This can go forward. Or now i'm gonna just affirm the lower court judge said so i. It's pre as you said it's gnarly so what the judge did not do at all and her decision was wade into any of the political questions that have been swirling around whites firing like whether former mayor marty walsh knew about the domestic violence allegations against white. When white are when walsh tapped him for the post in january. Okay so the places where white is pushing back one. Is this appeal to the decision from yesterday. But he's saying some other stuff to tell us about that. Yes so to get a little nerdy about the city charter for a minute. Janey is required to hold a hearing before she fires white janey jeannie administration says this has to be very informal basically here. We're going to fire you. He has a chance to defend himself but not a big drawn out thing in. Typically those are done behind closed doors but white once that hearing to be public. He's calling it a what he wants. A trial like named clearing hearing and he wants the city to bring forward the witnesses they're relying on to justify is firing and he wants to be able to cross examine them. And so. here's what whites attorney nick. Carter said about this during last week's court hearing the level of defamation that has taken place here is so extraordinary that dennis white needs to an entitled to a robust hearing while he's still commissioner when the public is still paying attention to say to the public. Here's what really went on. Okay and for the record. I am all for getting nerdy about the charter. That's good stuff all right. So acting merging. He must have something to say in response. Yes so yesterday. After the decision was issued janey statement saying she'd schedule a new hearing with white pretty quick league now of course. that's on hold. Because of white's appeal and stay janey says though it's time to move the city and police department forward and that echoes what the city's lawyer k hodge said at the hearing last week. Let's take listen about austin deserves. A police department that is consistent with their janis vision of integrity and accountability. It has to move forward. Okay so allie help our listeners remember janey decided to terminate white his employment after the release of an investigative report that dug into allegations against him from the nineties remind us what the big takeaways from that investigative report were right and so this goes back to before mayor janey actually took office. This was under the the walsh administration so this was triggered by a boston globe report that detailed domestic abuse allegations against white levied by his estranged wife in the late nineties and so Marty walsh brought in this outside investigator. The outside investigator also uncovered an earlier altercation with whites. Nineteen year old niece in nineteen ninety-three white was accused of punching her and throwing her down the stairs. In both those cases the police department did investigate at the time and cleared white and white denies the accusations now and and then Genius said though the behavior that white admitted to is enough to terminate him. She said he wasn't cooperative. During his recent outside investigation either so elliott as we said at the top to some extent lots of cities and towns are going to be watching this because it has to do with how american execute site over the head of police. So you've been covering this. What are you gonna watch most closely from this point forward. Yes so. I'm interested to see how this latest appeal goes of course but i'm also really curious to see if white gets his way to have the hearing public in some shape or form and i should say that this this city charter is unique to boston. It differs in other cities and towns about whether you can fire how you hire the police department. So it's kind of a weird very massachusetts idiosyncratic thing that we have here But really this is all part of a much bigger issue of what's happening with the boston police department. The department has really been the set by scandals. Doesn't have a prominent leader in place and it's supposed to be acting all these reforms that we've yet to see any real movement on so i'm wondering how much of is a scandal in legal limbo gonna delay or halt any of the promises that have been made over the last year and really. What kind of difference will that make for. People affected by policing boston all right. Wr's alley manning elie. Thanks thanks for having so we're gonna turn now to the legal pieces of this and get a little clarity with nancy. Gertner retired federal judge senior lecturer at harvard law school. Wbz our legal analyst judge gertner. Welcome back good to be back. So thank you for coming alley. Just gave us the rundown on. What's happening did anything. Jump out to you from what you just heard from a legal perspective. Well i was not surprised by the judges deficient yesterday saying that. She would not intervene to stop Lights termination because she had to make a determination about whether he was irreparably harmed by not being in the police commissioner job and it's hard to say that he would be irreparably harmed. It's not like he's losing his position on the fourth losing a prestigious command So that wasn't a surprise. And she also said that she didn't think that there was a likelihood of success on the merits which is legal language. Essentially looking at the facts now. She doesn't think that he has a likely winnable. Claim and the ambiguity of the legal issues are really part of that. This is nineteen sixty two statute of the under which white is proceeding that calls for a notice and a hearing. It doesn't describe what it has to consist of And there is no case law under it so the judge fairly says. I can't say you're likely to succeed. We're all on new territory here Okay so underlying. Yeah so just just two questions there one. You said no irreparable harm from from the cut. That allie played for us. It sounds like whites. Attorney is arguing that there is severe reputational harm and that should count. Am i understanding that correctly. And does that count well. His reputational harm comes from his having been dismissed and if there was a legitimacy to the dismissal in the reputational harm comes with the territory in other words. If i fired you from your wonderful position. Which i never would do and i was right to fire you. You're harmed by it but it was be legitimate. So the underlying question here is whether or it was legitimate to fire him. That's the underlying question. And for that he wants a hearing that would be public And again we're dealing in a very gray area. There are rules about hearings when you dismiss a police officer. Civil service rules their collective bargaining agreements but with respect to a police commissioner. There really are no rules in the statute says notice and hearing mayor janey says i'll give you a hearing The content of which will be determined by me. There's no law regarding at one way or another He's reputational damage is troubling. There's no question about it here. But that's a little tied up in whether it was legitimate to fire him or not at tidal legitimacy of this report will we likely see another legal battle. Come out over what happens in the hearing. So you've just laid out it's not really codified really clear what does or doesn't have to happen in the hearing mayor janey says what has to happen in that hearing is whatever i want. Whites attorney says what we want in that hearing are witnesses to testify publicly a chance to cross examine clear name is there could be more fighting the courts i mean. Is this going to drag out a really long time. Well not my prediction here. Is that the supreme judicial court will do exactly what The superior court judge did and ny any enter preliminary injunction which means the court would say. I'm not going to intervene. Let this proceed as it is if there's an issue here if there was a mistake about the kind of hearing then there will be damages after the fact but right now. I'm not going to stop his termination You know there's an irony here. Which is the white case began with an internal affairs investigation of the accusations made by his wife against him. that of course was completely confidential. No one had what nobody had any problem with that being confidential And so the counter to that the investigation that was produced just recently came up with other acushnet another accusation of of violence and a more elaborate description of what the issue was with his wife. was essentially with an investigation on the same terms that all the other investigations have been. And why didn't object when he was exonerated by the by the internal affairs department and to the way it was done now he's objecting because it's become public. There's a little bit of a double standard there So i doubt very much if the mayor will make this an open hearing so one of the other questions that i wanted to ask you. The mayor has the acting mayor. Mayor janey has made it very clear it seems that her intent is to fire him after the hearing. Now with one supposed to have some sort of. I think the word you use evidentiary hearing but the person holding the hearing has set in advance with the conclusion of that hearing is going to be. Is that a problem again. We're what they're all. There's a whole continuum. Let me let me sort of us even more nerdy where this continue right. The the big blue ribbon hearing is a trial with witnesses appeal etc. but they're all sorts of informal hearings. that are sort of that That take place under different kinds of circumstances. And what mayor danny is saying is the typically this is an informal Proceeding at which witnesses may or may not be sworn but at least the proceedings confidential. The law doesn't tell us where we are in that continuum it really doesn't There are reasons to keep it confidential. Which is there may have been people who came forward against white. Who came forward on the condition of confidentiality. Now they actually have no entitlement to confidentiality if the truth is So but on the other hand. I said these proceedings done informally. There's no answer here. I wish i could give you an answer. But there really isn't an answer their reason to make it public so that he could clear his name on the other. Hand the witnesses who testified on the condition of confidentiality maybe troubled. It really could. So i wanna i wanna the the team telling me a statements coming from mir kim janey on the injunction ruling for dennis white. I'm just going to read it. I respect judge. And i'm afraid i don't know how to pronounce the judges last name breeders decision to review her ruling and as such. I have postponed the hearing for dennis white. I stand ready to move forward on behalf of the residents of boston in the boston. Police department as soon as the court allows i am grateful for the continued professionalism and service of our officers during this time so last question than should acting mayor janey be able to do what she ultimately wants to do. Which is fire the commissioner the city charter. We're getting our geek. On and all kinds of ways today comes back into play and says that acting mayors quote shall possess the powers of mayor only in matters of not admitting of delay but she'll have no power to make permanent appointments and quote. If you fire someone you've got to put someone else in their place. can she hire a replacement. Well she could again. We're we're in The gray area she could hire another acting person and arguably this is an issue that does not admit a delay right. There has to be leadership in this department particularly at this time. Let me back off against. There's a hearing issue. And if she is wrong about the hearing wrong about the ultimate outcome here then white will get damages for his debt for the ways in which he was damaged but will he get the job should he get the job in my view. Not but that's just one person's view all right. Nancy gertner retired. Federal judge senior lecturer at harvard law school. Wbz our legal analyst. Thanks we're going to talk cannabis now. What boston other cities and towns and the commonwealth do now will determine whether the decision to legalize marijuana building industry that is rich in black and brown business ownership which was part of the intent In making the legalisation decision. There are a couple of proposals on the table in boston to change. How the city does business with the business of cannabis and they underscore the issue. Boston city councilor li add. Lydia edwards is pushing for reforms in licensing joins us now councilor edwards. Welcome back to radio boston. Thank you thank you very much for having me so. I wanna mostly focused here counselor boston's zoning board of appeal you want to move the zoning board of appeal out of the licensing process for cannabis businesses. I know this sounds dry probably to our listeners but it turns out. It's a pretty big deal. Why do you want to do this. Well just to be clear. They don't grant licensing and they're not part of the licensing process safe for any of our alcohol establishments. I just want consistency and i want the new board that will be. I think a year old in june to be able to function and what's happening is people are. Establishments are getting licenses after community meetings after going back and forth at justice security plans after doing traffic studies. And they go back to the community. And they're getting the license from the board and then going in front of his epa and the cba with no standards. No real no real. Understanding i think of the cannabis law or the program is deciding. Yes or no as to whether that entity can go to the state or not. And there's some clarification as to why they made their decisions. I'm just going to pause you there for a second. so there. is the boston cannabis. It makes a decision but then there's this step that you're you would like to see eliminated where the boston zoning board of appeal also makes a decision. Correct a boston zoning. Yes born appeal and their decisions predominantly deal the fact that this is a conditional license in commercial areas. And i would just want to make an excuse me a conditional use and i just wanna make it an allowable use in commercial building entity or wherever zone and that's it and that would get rid of his. Epa zeba has backlogged has a lot of cases on. Its own right now. It's up is dealing with enough issues. And trying to enforce boning laws on the books was thrown on them and before we even had the cannabis board we now have a board of experts Picked based on their understanding security and traffic and equity and public safety and health and workers rights. That board can do this job and that was a. I wanna play a little bit of sound here from kobe evans. We talked to him earlier today. Co owner of pure which is a cannabis business in the grove hall area. Talking about how this change could help. It's a great idea. I guess the hard part is why. Didn't someone think about this earlier. It would have been helpful because then you don't have to bend the extra month or two presenting in front of a canvas board and for every month that you are waiting in this pipeline. You're spending money so if you can remove any of those requirements along the way that's an attorney. I don't have to pay rent. I don't have to pay. He estimated something like this could have saved his business about forty thousand dollars so two questions coming out of this the first why. Why is this proposal only happening now and second. Are you confident that the delay issues would be eliminated if if this goes through so why. I think explained the reason why it's happening now is we didn't have cannabis board when we started We had just the va and the opposite emerging industries. Hey and then out just started really hearing and working in june july of last year and so i think after a year of seeing it work and getting the licenses and denying some licenses and then making people come back and do all the work we've watched the board move row and create an efficient process to get or not get a license and we're there now you're later and i think you know where we will always come up with additional regulations and different standards but the zeba no longer necessary as the neatest gear. Sit yes so now. The need is clear. And there's an alternative. That's possible is what you're arguing. Okay okay do. I want us. We've talked about unicef. I'm thinking this phrase from the old children's show confusion and delay but there's also it sounds like an element of capriciousness. That is a concern. Here i i want to bring up a story from back in two thousand and nineteen. We spoke to you about the debacle over to cannabis stores in east boston. They were berkshire routes in east boston. Bloom they came to the one applicant Before the other and the first one got approved and then because the first one got approved happened to be earlier in the agenda. The second one didn't so it was a problem like that be eliminated. If only the boston cannabis board were in this process or would because that was about citing that caused the second one not to get approved because it would have been too close to the first one. So talk about that yes. That's that's that exact examples. One of the inspirations for that this particular zoning amendment is the fact that where you stand in line should be the ultimate determinant of whether you have a business for not I also would like to know. There's so much tension between a What they now consider themselves each other's competition because he might be too close to each other. And i know som- Entities want to keep zeba involved because their first in line and they will absolutely us the buffer zone to kill the competition. That's a misuse. I want to be back to why we have this buffer zone. Forget why we have as yet. Why do we have the upper zone. Bumpers was to permit concentration of cannabis stores in any particular neighborhood. That's it nothing to traffic nothing to do with equity nothing to do with competition. We just didn't want any one neighborhood to have all of the candidates stores and to be clear yet proposed new regulations that would give the cannabis board power to grant exceptions to that half mile buffer zone. You want you want to also reduce that or have the option of reducing correct. I want them to be one. I want to be clear that half mile buffer zone will exist and there will be time with the cannabis or says won't be given an exception to this. It doesn't make any sense to do that. And there may be times for example in the east boston. We're talking about. Maybe a hundred feet difference right. We're not talking about like very close to the other entity we're talking about. Maybe one hundred feet out of the half mile booker's own two different sections of east boston. And that's what was used to kill the competition so those arguments should be able to be made to the board and the community will be able to come in and say absolutely not we disagreed. I'm not saying the conversation shouldn't happen. I just don't make acura ball. Back and forth organization. At the boston cannabis board the can come in and say okay now. You don't so one of the pushbacks to this. Proposal is in fact concern from some that. The zeba listens to community in a way that and push back in a way that. Potentially the boston cannabis board would not as made up of representatives from a bunch of different industries that make up the city. They have a process for listening to the community. What do you say to that pushback. I i'm trying my best not to laugh at you had heard at. You have heard anything about the that they reflect community need want desire have you it's laughable amount of reforms that are being thrown at the cpa because they grant variances like candy. On everything apparently cannabis it is it is laughable that someone is actually saying that they are more consistent hearing community on that than will anybody that the outrage that i have from the va and how they literally do. The exact opposite of what. The community shows up to to to to advocate for it laughable. Is there something structural that you think needs to happen differently when equity is at the core of an emerging industry basically. I think well. I think we are doing that. I guess what i'm asking you is. Is this in part. These changes are they in part. Because i mean we have an unusual situation here in the commonwealth in that the legalization of marijuana from the get go was expressly stated in part to be done in a way that would improve equity right. Some of the wrongs of our previous criminalization and create an industry rich and black and brown owned businesses. Is this forcing looking at. There's a whole lot of different ways. We need to just do business differently. If that's the goal so this is. This is not the goal of adding to that conversation. In terms of equities at anything we have built in other structural pending including the back that we want dispensaries to one for one ratio. We want to maintain that. But we don't want it to be dispensary and say delivery That is compared as a one to one. Because we felt that was gonna be lopsided and allow for lada non-equity corporate entities to be able to use a delivery. Which as you noted state has a a first licenses to equity applicants. We didn't want to use deliveries equi applicants as their ability to get the one for one ratio so in short we are looking at seeing house. Systems could be lopsided and we're trying to make sure that we are always centered in this. This is about consistency. this is about efficiency. this is about making eight. I don't know a business. Arash visits out that that says opera. Bumped all this impede all these lawyers that i to want more bureaucracy. I think it's time that we'd really acknowledged as epa not has a role space or miss like need in this conversation and that is boston city. Councilor lydia counselor. I appreciate you taking the time today. Thanks and all right so the first holiday weekend in our new normal is this weekend just around the corner so we want to know greater boston. What are you gonna do. Where are you going to go if you need ideas. We have just the thing for you. We have two guests who know the city inside and out from fake vikings. And there's such a thing to a sneaker store hidden behind. Vending machine heather ca plow and kim linda to look travel writers the authors of the new book. One hundred eleven places in boston that you must not miss and headline. They're not all in boston. Have their kim welcome to radio boston. Thanks for joining the show and having us thank you to and listeners. We want to hear from you. Do you have a sneaky favourite hidden spot around the city or the region that you want to share. Do you have questions about oddities that you think your guests might know. Maybe you're looking for advice on where to go. Call us one. Eight hundred four two three eight two five five. That's one eight hundred four to three talk. You can also tweet us at radio boston. Okay i am excited to dig in. This book is chock full of really cool stuff right off the top. One of my favorite things is the fake. Viking memorials heather who knew we had that. Tell us about them. Well i will say that. I did not know that we had that but actually. Wvu are did and you guys. I should give a shout out where one of my resources in this so A writer or a journalist named megan mcginnis wrote a piece about meghan mcguinness. Yeah two thousand eighteen. And i used a lot of different resources but that was one of them. I feel like i should give credit where credit is due but She's appreciate that so There are a series of memorials to fake alternative history. I guess That boston has which was sort of started in the eighteen seventies where some very wealthy folk including baking soda magnate Under wrote An entire series of monuments A tower in western mass but in boston. We have a statue of leif on the common mall and in cambridge a marker for a house where leif ericson supposedly lived in one thousand eight but didn't didn't at all so kim let me turn to you for a minute because i'm looking at the book it's page one ninety seven. There's this picture of a cod. I got the biggest kick out of this. The sacred cod at the state house. Tell us about that. Yeah so actually. This one was also heather. She wrote the chapter so she can speak to it more than me specifically. So how do you want to do kim. You want to tell us about one of yours. Yes sorry so one of my favorite ones. Actually the puppet free library which is all. This one's very cool. Yeah chapter ninety in the book. It's a kind of hidden tribute to the lost art of puppetry It's actually in the basement of emmanuel church In back bay and it's run by a puppeteer named sarah pd who she actually trained and performed with bread and puppet theater. If you've heard of them you basically go through and allison wonderland like door As i mentioned in the chapter and it's kind of it's by appointment. only since it kind of doubles. As her studio. And for several years she had an informal practice of kind of lending out puppets to people in the community to use them for events Which she still does today. But she kind of formalized the process of signing them in and out hence the name library so they're used in parades like honk fast Throughout the year and some of them are just huge twenty feet tall and just really cool to see all right. Let's go to the phones. One eight hundred four two three eight two five five to either ask a question about your favourite regional hidden place or share an idea. We're going out somewhere or not all of us but many will this weekend and step outside and try something new. What do you recommend they try. We've got an on the line. And i think you're in the car and foxborough right. Yes i am. Thank you I just would recommend outside the city but a wonderful place to visit that allows people. I don't know about the fruit landing museum and the whole complex in harvard massachusetts. It's a wonderful place for people to visit. So it's a museum and open space in. is that right. Yeah yes it is isn't it has an A shaker museum as well as the freelance themselves that utopian commit community that was started by a male cups father and some of the other transcendence cranston. And it's a really nice place a picnic and they used to have concerts. I'm not sure if they still have concert right. Thanks for the recommendation. And i appreciate it now. There are more calls coming in. We'll go back to them. But heather is still think that is really cool so now that we've heard about the public museum which was on my list. Let's come back and talk about this sacred cod at the state house yeah. I'm happy to talk about this. This was sort of a weird oddity. That i really had no idea about the a super excited to find out about it so i guess boston Lake other places in the world but the the Cod fishery is like critically important to boston's culture massachusetts culture in general and so there is a giant like more than four foot long. I guess maybe probably almost five foot long wooden. Codfish very super hyper realistic. We painted hanging in the house chamber in the massachusetts state house. And it's not the first one when the to there now. There have been like an official cod since seventeen eighty four and the cod itself like each cod has had some kind of major trial To get us to the current cod including One that was burned down and one that was called napped by the harvard. Lampoon also in our book The the charles river was dragged in in search of that one before it was returned. And there's trouble. I don't know i'm assuming they did. The police dragged the whole charles river so But i think the most important interesting thing to me about this. Is there a ton of rituals surrounding the so like when the qods had to be moved from one place to another there is a a sergent at arms carries it on escorted messengers like a coffin with american flag over it and there's a ton of like legislative paperwork and committees who talk about how the symbols to be moved so i think it's really just a beautiful thing that we've decided to put like the labor fisherfolk i Centralistic way all right. Let's go back to the phones. One eight hundred four two three eight two five five to share your hidden and favourite place. Let's talk to andrew and brooklyn andrew which got well. There's a secret garden in harvard yard behind the library and The only way to get to it. You know how. Harvard yard is surrounded with these brick and wrought iron walls There's a door piece of the wrought. Iron is hinged And you can't really see it unless you look closely it's usually padlock but sometimes it's not a few you hinge that open. There's a little path that takes you back to this card and behind the library. And i'm that mark halperin author of winter's tell when he was an undergraduate at harvard us to sit back there and and right it was a place you can find some peace and quiet. Well that sounds lovely and these are the fun things to go. Look for the andrew. Thank you for that. Call so heather in kim another one that i just found fascinating and i don't know which one of you wrote this one so you can tell me and talk about it. Who's gonna tell me about the bodega because that was kind of incredible. Yes so Bodega is basically a sneaker. Speak easy and it's also you know a secret kind of Passageway i love. I love kind of secret and hidden places on definitely drawn to them When when researching for the book so it's basically a convenience store facade though you can purchase convenience store items there and you go through a fake snapple vending machine to get to this super curated really cool sneaker shop. They have no sign edge. It's all really word of mouth advertising. They've relied on and they've been there believe let's see probably close to fifteen or sixteen years now and even if you're not a sneaker head or super into sneakers it's definitely worth checking out so i was going to ask you. I mean i noticed in the book the only picture we get a bodega part not the secret. Part behind the fake snapple vending machine. If sacredness secretively right is part of their cachet did what they okay. I guess they must have been okay with being in the book. But i thought that was a little bit interesting. Yeah that's true. yeah. I our photographer. Eliza kind of worked her magic with a lot of the places that aren't necessarily typically You know accessible to the public right away to get some of the shots which was also really interesting. So i'm not sure what transpired. Or if they didn't didn't want her to Get back there for the shot. But you know. I think that's part of the the fun so listeners. we're talking about secret places hidden places surprising places down secret passageways. But maybe this weekend you're just going to go back to one of your favorite places. Maybe it's the ducklings maybe it's the swan boats maybe it's a park in lexington or concord. Where you're gonna go this weekend. Where do you think other people ought to go one. Eight hundred four two three eight two five five one eight hundred four to three talk. That's the number so you guys talk about now. The omni parker historic parker house hotel. Which really has a deep history. I knew a little bit about it but you surprised me with some pretty famous revolutionaries who have been on the staff there over the years. Talk a little bit about that one. Yeah this one falls in my pile again This was i mean. I've had some pretty close contact with omni parker house in the past and distill took me into depths that i had no idea So starting i think. In terms of revolutionaries in nineteen eleven hoochie men worked in the kitchen there and left behind marble countertop. That's still used to this day. If i'm sorry but we have to stop. I'm sorry ho chi minh cooking in the kitchen of the omni parker house. Yup credible sorry. Sorry it's amazing and then we also had malcolm x. Did a little bit of stint there as a busboy and And then a lot of famous chefs and writers have spent some time there plus. There's a few ghosts ghost okay. Don't stop after the word ghosts to us. Little more about that Well the most prominent ghost is harvey parker. Who founded the hotel and actually. He's a very kitchen focused percent So who's in. The kitchen does matter in the culture of this photo. I think but And also i should say that the omni parker house is the longest continuously hotel in the country Because i don't. I don't know if people know that but i think so. It was founded by harvey parker who is famous for the parker house roles. It's also the place where the boston cream pie was invented. And he had once had a cafe and they turned it into a hotel and apparently he still checks in on guests on the tenth floor can make sure that they're comfortable and happy and enjoying their stay. His charles dickens apparently rooms halls from time to time to yes and dickens actually Wvu are we do a reading of a christmas carol every year. He did a reading there and there is a mirror in a hallway. There that supposedly is the one where he would practice when he was going to do a reading. It really is quite incredible. Including of the christmas. Carol was there right at right and don't want well I think the. I think the mirror is there now. Yeah so there's a lot of lot of dickens Lor floating around that so cool one eight hundred four two three eight two five five. Join the conversation. Peters got a place to share peter's calling from west. Go ahead peter there. i've tried. This place is really great. It's called bed-and-breakfasts afloat. A place to stay on the harbor in in a vote. Yes it's it's it's a constitution marina a fun way to spend the weekend there you go. So what about the other kinds of things we liked to do on the weekend. Heather cam like eat out or see a movie. Do you have favorite places for those things. This book we do. Have the specifically the midnight showings at the coolest corner theatre with which just reopened. I believe Last week or the week prior. And that's one of my favorite places to see a movie personally just the history there And the you know it was shot in the book we have One of the theaters just gorgeous. So that's that's one of my favorites. How about i would say for movies I it's not quite the season for it. Yet but films at the gate in in chinatown is sort of a really special way to see a movie and they haven't done it since two thousand nineteen because of kobe. But it's been going on. Since two thousand six i think and And was founded by a group. Whose longer in boston but the Asian community development center still runs it and it's curated by an amazing like historian of both film and martial arts so there are kung fu films and you bring a folding chair and everybody eats like takeout food while they watch the films scream along. Know like clap for the heroes. It's it's a completely unique way to film it. Sounds fantastic and so communal. And isn't that remarkable that been so separated now for more than a year and we're beginning to be able to think about having some of these communal experiences again. Let's go back to the phones here. One eight hundred four two three eight two five. Andy's calling andy. You're calling from boston. Harbor area yourself Tell us what you want to share their two places. One is outside of austin in rockport. It's the paper house the entire house which was built around nineteen twenty or so with made by rolled and shellacked paper. The owner of the house was an engineer. If everything is made out of paper including the piano the grandfather clock all the furniture inside the exterior is made out of paper and the house is still there. It was closed during the pandemic. But i mean. I went there as a kid with my parents and i bring friends there all the time when the and this is rockport. That's in rockford on pigeon cove in rockport 'cause cove road And the second one is the vilna show. Which is the oldest still standing synagogue in the city of boston. It's right on phillip street and beacon hill and it's part museum and part working synagogues still so but it's on this residential street in this beautiful neighborhood and it's just a little tucked away but it's a gem and the museum part of it tell the whole history of the west end which at one time had as many as forty synagogues in it and the vilna zealand wants still standing. Thanks for those andy. Those are hidden gems as well. Andy thanks for the call. I'm going to grab another call here From sarah and jamaica plain because it has to do the parker house. Sarah go head. Sara are you. They're not but yeah. Can you hear me okay now. I can't go ahead. okay yeah This may have been mentioned already. Because i came late into the story. But maybe not when. You're talking about the parker house but there's also in the dining room I don't know if it's on it or not. But i don't think they let people sit there. ah corner table where. Jfk actually proposed to jackie Can't who became jackie kennedy. And that's where he That's where he proposed to her. And all right. Sarah the and having kim. You guys have something to say about that right. Yeah there's a little bit of controversy about this issue There is also a restaurant in dc that claims that this is where This proposal is made so. And we've done pretty deeply into the archives and the microphone shiva jack kennedy library and we have been unable to ascertain which is true. And then there's also a third theory which seems also very plausible based on just the time line of the news reporting which is that. The proposal happened by phone or telegram. while Jacqueline lives in. I believe rhode island with her for rhode island. Yeah yeah with her family so so we can't we can't that one but we can go ahead and claim providence in the region at the very least descending. Certainly in my second row had many many many meals at that table so excellent so sarah. If you're still there does that change your mind about how cool that table is to know that. That's actually a story in disputants. No because even if he didn't do it more than likely that they had dinner there at some point. So you know whether you did the proposal there or not who cares. It's significant and there are a lot of you know significant sites in boston. Obviously have to do with kennedys. So you know. actually i'll take. Yeah i think it was. Dc maybe more more than likely 'cause she was working as a reporter when she Initially originally met him. that's how she met him. She was doing an interview but you know it was some time before he proposed and she was actually engaged to somebody else. She brokering order to marry him. So yeah let's sarah thanks. Thanks so i. I wanna note marquees neil our engineer in parasols in one of our producers. Wanna throw in their favorite spot. Which is the area four arcade in the back of rock sees on mass avin cambridge between and central square. It's a great place to check out and walter weltman. Neither one of our producers says swim off the pier at the charleston navy yard on a really hot day. He says it's fantastic and the harbor is very clean now. All right so how any place that didn't make it. You wanted to put it in the book but for one reason or another. You didn't yeah for me. That's actually norman. B leventhal park and post office square in the financial district. It's such an oasis in the middle of the city and when i Worked downtown. I used to go there. Frequently you know there's a beautiful cupboard traumas and fountain and it just feels kind of worlds away from the city and i was really kind of sad to part with that but i think we had. We probably a too many parks and green spaces in the book already so heather. What about you. what's yours. I mean i have so many but i really. We weren't able to include the mirabella pool. Which is a city pool. City owned pool. That is has this beautiful. It's in the north end and it's got a beautiful view of the atlantic ocean. You've got kind of juts out over it and You know very very cheap to get a membership very cheap to go with day pass and it was under construction and we didn't know the final completion date at the time of publication so we had to scrape it and But it's a beautiful place. And i hope people look for it and swimming. It are so before we let you go. There's one more that i just. I just have to ask about. We've got about a minute left. And it is the memorial or lack thereof depending on how you look at it. to king philip's war yeah. this was a risk took i think to include a few sites. That aren't quite s- places. But i think this is important because you know. The colonial history of boston also includes some colonialism that oppressed and harmed many other people so King philip was a rebellion in the boston area and was assassinated. It was a year plus long rebellion was assassinated and kind of drawn and quartered and Parts of his body were hung On spikes in boston common for many many years so there is a movement to have a memorial for him There is actually a gravestone for him in rhode island but there is a movement memorial for him in in boston comment and for now we send people to spot where a lot of other native americans were hung to to reflect on the history until there's a formal memorial so and to know he was a member of the tribe right. There was so many rich and interesting and fun and serious places. Caputo kim wyndha- authors of the new book. One hundred eleven places in boston that you must not miss and you convinced me on all hundred and eleven of them. Thanks to both of you for being with us. Thank you so much. That was fun all right listeners. That's our show for today. Radio boston is produced by jamie bologna. Chris siddiq parasol. Ston and walter wolfman with help from stephen gelman and half soccer. Our engineer today is marquee. Neil our executive producer is attached hockey. I'm john deering. Thanks for listening. Join us again tomorrow for more radio boston.

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1:10:54 hr | 10 months ago

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"Goes see the cubs. And you've got understand. This is a time when the cubs were not drying very many people. They never won. This was peak lovable losers cubs and in fact. I just looked this up. He was born in nineteen forty eight. The cubs did not have a winning season until nineteen sixty three so until he was fifteen years old he never saw them have a winning season. Steve started getting into music when he was pretty young. He sang in the choir at his temple. He was a boy soprano. He played guitar kind of high school. Full been you never highschool never saw him without a guitar went off to college but didn't last very long because he didn't like to go to class. You'd rather plays guitar and right around this time. He's twenty years old. he is not feeling very well. he goes to the hospital and he is diagnosed at age. Twenty with acute lymphoblastic leukemia very scary diagnosis the prognosis for people. Who got diagnosed back then. Was maybe six months. You know there wasn't really an effective treatment. But they were just starting to develop these new cancer treatments and he signed up for an experimental treatment and after several months of that the cancer actually goes into a remission in the summer of nineteen sixty nine. And that's really when he decides he's done with college in he's just going to focus on being a full-time folk musician. We get these little signals in our life. It's sort of like being at a light in the light either turns redder. It turns green steffi. Wait for the light sometimes. Pretty quickly he could make a living just playing songs singing songs in a handful of bars around chicago. There were all these clubs And they were really just kind of like bars like places where you know. Maybe get fifty sixty seventy chairs. There is the url of old town which of became his home. Our own steve. Good some performers. Just get up and sing their songs. Steve would do that. He was a virtual guitar player but he also was a storyteller. Wrote this song. After i walked to the bottom of the grand canyon in one thousand nine hundred ninety five just got back. He talked about the cubs a lot. And how terribly they were doing. That was kind of a theme because they haven't wondering my lifetime. I'm not that young. Charmed everybody okay. So by the early nineteen eighties. Steve is making his living as a folk singer as a musician. And he's pretty successful ends. Lived you know ten years longer than the original doctors would have predicted in his early thirties but he still has two goals. There's still things that are him. And one is that he's never had a hit song on the charts where he's the performer. In the singer other people have recorded songs he wrote and had hits You know maybe most notably arlo guthrie. The son of what he got three at a number four easy listening hit with the city of new orleans. The country singer. David allan cove had eight country. Hit with you never even called me by my name on it kind of makes fun of country but it made it onto the country music charts. One friend of mine name. Steve goodman wrote that saw he told me it was the perfect song but he was never the singer on those hits up to that point. And you know it's clear that he may have been a little frustrated about that. Why didn't he have hit well. There are a lot of possible reasons. But his biographer klay heels has a theory back in the nineteen seventies. he was discovered by the country. Singer kris kristofferson goodman was being handed the brass ring you know. Would you like to come to new york to start a a a recording contract most anybody in that circumstance which say gee yes thank you thank you but the first thing out of goodman's mouth was well. If you think. I'm good you got to hear my friend john prying he had this instinct towards generosity. And i'm not sure that always worked in his favor. That kind of generosity is more of a great life lesson but it doesn't necessarily translate into becoming a household word. Nice guy. yeah yeah maybe too nice to have a hit so that was number one and moving onto golden number to remember. Steve loved baseball. I've been trying to write a song about baseball for four years. And i get about three quarters of the way through it and then i walked somebody and take myself out. You know. I never get to finish the damn thing you know. It's basically means failure. It's true i i get about three quarters away through it and then then i'm struggling. You know it's a hat afternoon. I'm looking to the bench and the manager comes out so he's been trying to write a baseball song for years and finally in one thousand nine hundred one. He wakes up in the middle of the night. This vision this dream and from that comes a song called dying cub fan's last request by the shores of old lake michigan. What you're seeing is a video of steve playing the song. Live an old cub fan. Lei die. he's a rooftop guitar. He's got a bright blue cubs head on see wrigley field in the background. You can even see the infield grass nice and green. They knew his time was short. It's about this lifelong cubs fan. Who is dying. you know. i'll never see wrigley field anymore before my eternal rest. And he's telling his friends and family how he wants to give me a doubleheader funeral in wrigley field on some sunny weekend day and the song also really makes fun of the cubs for losing all the time. But what do you expect when you raise up a young boys hopes and then just crush them mike. So many paper cups year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year until those hopes that are just so much popcorn for the pigeons beneath the el tracks to eat. He said you know. I'll never see wrigley field. That's intense actually. What's intense about it. Now that i know about his diagnosis it feels like it's autobiographical. And that he's talking about his death yet it does. It sounds that way but you know when he wrote the song he was in remission he had been more or less cancer free for twelve years but between the time he wrote the song in this video was shot. The cancer had returned. And i think you can actually see it in the video. you know. even though he's smiling and he looks happy. It looks like he's lost some weight and he probably knows at this point that the leukemia's back and it's it's pretty serious jaw man. So that was steve. I baseball song and pretty quickly becomes a crowd crowd-pleaser at his shows and kind of a local favourite in chicago and in fact the local tv station wants to film him performing it at wrigley field but the cubs wouldn't allow it They said no. And the reason was the song pokes fun at their propensity to lose and they. They didn't like that. This was a time when they were trying to rebuild a team and they were focusing on winning and they just didn't want that lovable losers crap in their stadium. So this is where dan fabian. Okay comes into the story talking into the receiver dan. Fabian was a radio producer at wgn. Yeah radio and one time while he was at work. He saw steve goodman on the radio. You know like doing an interviewer performance and mandalite vote went on baby had been looking for some bumper music for the wgn cubs broadcasts stuff to play in between the innings and so he saw steve goodman there and he had this idea. What if steve goodman writes a song. I literally ran to the studio dribbled. The little note win slipped it to him during a commercial. Hey do you want to write another cup sung dying cubs fans last requests. Would you like to read a happy cubs song. That was on a tuesday. Eighteen back thursday with the to the song and the following. Monday night tuesday morning. We had a party little studio just south of wrigley goodman just like rounds up a bunch of folks singing friends a couple of the cubs. Were actually part of it. Too and they knocked the they knocked the song out in. What was your involvement with the recording. Were you were you producing. I'll have you know high squeaky voice in the background. Saying i told you it was a party. We recorded it and three weeks later and the cubs liked it and this year the cubs thousand eighty four. They're actually doing really really well that year. And they say you know what if we make it to. The playoffs steve goodman can come and sing. The star spangled banner dine cubs fan song. But well let's even come in saying you know to kick off the game because we love. We love this song and the cubs actually make it to the playoffs for the first time since. Nineteen forty five. But steve goodman dies of leukemia. Four days before that. But that's actually not the end of the story so you remember. I told you he wanted to write a great baseball song and you know arguably he wrote to do you remember. His other. Big goal wanted to have a song that he wrote himself that he performed. That would be a hit exactly. That song go cubs go was used by. Wgn for a few years but then it kinda got forgotten you were talking about the cubs playing it at the end of every game. That's relatively recent tradition. That started in two thousand seven which was also a big year for the cubs somebody at the cubs organization said. Hey remember that. Old song from the eighties. Steve goodman all that. Why don't we just that often play it after a home game win and we'll see if people sing along and they dance they sing along. It caught on became this big tradition at wrigley field. It also caught on in the bars you know they would. People would sing along and then in twenty sixteen this is gonna be a top go cubs go down. A lot of attention seasons marine a couple of become sang. The song and saturday night live cast of hamilton in chicago saying it and you know hundreds of thousands of people. We're seeing it in grant park at the victory parade. There's something like two million streams on and it went up on the billboard charts well and that's like what thirty years later. He finally gets a hit that he sang. Steve goodman fans would say it's kind of ironic because go cubs go is not what they would consider to be one of his best songs but clay heels and other say goodman would have appreciated the situation and yeah. It's sad that he didn't live to see it. But if you think about it. It's also kind of the perfect story for this song. Because you know. For most of steve's life the notion that the cubs are gonna win baseball season's here again you know. It's time to start a whole new day. All of these lines are about optimism in spite of all the available evidence and i think that resonates deeply with chicago cubs fans. And i think that sorry. I'm getting emotional. I think it's also even though it's a pretty simple song. It is also kind of the essence of steve. Goodman to. And i think you know in that clip. I played for you. And you see all those people singing the song you know full-throatedly and they've got signs that say this is for grandpa. I think steve tapped into that. Yeah no i think you're right. I mean i think there is that Dream that somehow they'll succeed some day and people not giving up on that dream. I do think it's real. And i think it some kind of like the spirit of the city a little bit chicago. Were not new york. But we're going to matter to. I do think it's a part of the spirit of the city itself that's captured in that idea. So maybe you know you could see why it might be a little bit difficult for the cubs to think about rewriting or reforming the song. Yeah okay yeah. I see why now. It's not such a simple thing. So what are they doing well. They have said they're going to continue the tradition but according to klay eels. Steve goodman's biographer. It doesn't actually matter what the song is going to survive any ownership change any radio change because the fans will be singing. The song no matter what mean go cubs go. I think it's forever links to reporters. Jesse dukes ellen sandra solomon of wbz this episode for their curious city. Podcast was produced by stephen jackson a steinway adopting with us. We'll hear steve audie prejudice aliens we review program year. But they're still more to come but first misinformation about covid nineteen as sometimes spread faster than the disease itself chase. Cavanaugh looked at some of the reasons. Why in this report when it emerged earlier this year the world had limited knowledge of the coronavirus. And it's full effects. Doctors and researchers work to better understand the disease but countless rumors also circulated peter adams with the news. Literacy project explains like self tests if you hold your breath for ten seconds you don't have it in. That's entirely false or you know if you gargle with water you can wash the virus out of your throat. That's false so so. Those kinds of false claims circulated quite a bit. These small-claims can escalate too much larger concerns when somebody gets sick including how they seek treatment. That's what dr. Brian extension hospital is. Medical director at dome. Hospital is seeing people who are waiting and delaying routine. Care or urgent care are presenting with more advanced problems that perhaps may have been the case pre covid expert information on covid. Nineteen may appear sporadic and contradictory. This says post engine is a factor of time. Typically you've got months to years together ada on with kobe. You've kind of been operating on a much much smaller timeframe to to determine what's best what works for patients you know what may not be as effective confusion and can also come from a misunderstanding of how scientific research is done. Nicola do is a professor at northern illinois university whose work includes training future science teachers. She says issues can arise when people are presented with news reports of studies that contradict each other when there's new findings that is often picked up because it's exciting but in the scientific community you would find that if there's one finding that's quite unusual that the risks defined civic community would be pretty skeptical of that finding do emphasizes that science is an iterative process skepticism. In this case prompt further study they might change a particular variable. And they might find. You know that finding while it was true when we put it in this new context we find out more information. Contextualized is that. I finding but even with a proper understanding of research. They're still the matter. People trusting the information that they find adams with the news literacy project says over the past decade people had been consuming a greater proportion of opinion content that has caused people to just echo the talking points that they're hearing all day every day and people are really failing to distinguish between opinion journalism and straight news reporting. That's not to say opinion. Journalism doesn't have a role people who know subjects very well who engage in honest debate. Who you know take positions that are well reasoned fossil that plays a role in the national conversation but we still need a shared set of facts about which to have a debate. Liu says the should also be taken into account when judging suggested courses of action regarding covid nineteen there are a lot of economic consequences and personal consequences to following the guidelines presented by scientists and when we group those things together that makes it a point to the sciences. There the problem. They're not the problem. The date is the data what we choose to do with that. Data is different question. Ultimately a large part of combating. Disinformation comes down to distinguishing opinion versus fact liu says this can depend on the nature of the research behind a report. I look at who has done a study. Is that study funded by a company. That's profiting off of results. I look at did that. Finding have a control group or comparison group so did they vary a variable and how information is presented trustworthy. Information doesn't actually ask you to trust it. It shows it shows you why you should stingy in northwestern. Medicine says patient knowledge is improving now. Fortunately sometimes people just don't know how they were exposed or when they gave acquired from but we see various spectrums very little knowledge of any in about kobe. Nineteen to kind of people who really do a good job reading on it and the hope is that greater scientific and media literacy can help fight the flow of misinformation. I'm trace cavenaugh. This past week marked the fifty seventh anniversary of one of the most events in. Us history the assassination of president. John f kennedy. It happened in dallas texas in nineteen sixty three. But what i know about is an incident here in illinois in springfield just a year earlier. The president writing an open vehicle when a rifle was pointed out of a building above crystal thomas a former reporter with the state journal register and twenty eighteen. She wrote an article about that incident and we talked with her then and today on statewide. We revisit that conversation crystal. Thanks for being with us. And let's start by explaining kennedy's visit to springfield. What was his agenda here. Well also kennedy was visiting springfield as part of a stop during a campaign tour The midterms were in a month and he was in springfield to stump for democratic candidates Namely representative sidney eight. He was here to give a rousing speech to a crowd of thousands of people in springfield urging them to vote for his candidates so he comes to springfield in a motorcade ensues once he leaves the plane at the airport. How did this come to your attention. How did you find out that there was something that occurred during that motorcade. Well so on the fifty fifth anniversary of president. John f kennedy's actual assassination with the washington. Post ran an article by a professor stephen. Not this professor actually got these declassified documents from the john f kennedy library in boston that explain this incident. He was the one who found that. This incident actually happened We didn't know about it for so many years because sitting in that document that was still classified until two years ago in your newspaper at the time just had a brief blurb that something had occurred. Well i wouldn't even call it a blurb because it was two lines on page seven it was part of. It wasn't even part of the main story it was Part of a story called kennedy sidelights was explaining kind of the police presence. It took to protect a president kennedy and to secure the motorcade and two lines Didn't talk about how There was a rifle pointing at president kennedy at one point in the motorcade it all it said was that two youths were arrested and that they were held for secret service there is no follow up And no explanation for why they were arrested. So talk about the rifle itself in somebody of course witness this. Do we know who saw it. And what did they say. What did they describe seeing and And of course. What did the investigation up ali now about this incident. So far is what was found in that biweekly report. That was declassified Two years ago the report is about It's about twenty pages. But the brief about the motorcade is about paragraph in what it says is that there were two young men. They were in a second story floor of a building somewhere downtown and as the motorcade pass by that building once it left in illinois department of public safety employees saw a rifle scope sticking out the window and From there on a local police went and got the two youths arrested them and brought them to secret service. They were questioned by secret service. They admitted that they did. Stick the rifle out the window at the presidential motorcade but their explanation for doing so was that they wanted to see if they can see the president through the scope of the rifle so that when he came back through the motorcade thirty minutes later they could see him better. They weren't prosecuted. They were however their rifle and the ammunition was seized. There was never any follow up that we can tell. No information was given by the police or the secret service to the local media. Not to the local media. And it's pretty curious. Because i couldn't find anything in any of the illinois state journals pages Following the incident. There's nothing about it according to the declassification archivist at the jfk. library in any of the documents. She's looked at There also isn't a trace of it in springfield lore. Which is what i kind of find the most interesting part because there were locals. Who are involved in that arrest. There were police. There sheriff's deputies things like that Maybe people who are on that motorcade route that saw something and yet somehow this. This incident didn't trickle down to some kind of rumor or some kind of farfetched story that people tell their grandkids with crystal thomas a reporter for springfield st journal register. And we're talking about gfd's nineteen sixty two visit to springfield some new information. That's come out regarding an incident during the motorcade in which a rifle was apparently pointed at the president when we mentioned two youths believe sixteen and twenty years old. Were taken into custody eventually not charged with this. You were able to track down at least one of these people. Yes he actually still lives in the area He was sixteen at the time but now obviously he's much older. I paid a visit. His house on saturday. Because i couldn't track down a number for him and knocked on his door He opened his door his Small dog came out and we chatted for a bit. I there's no way really to Begin the conversation about whether you try to assassinate president fifty six years ago so i mostly just asked. Two question. showed him the brief. he didn't really want to talk about it So what you see in. The paper is pretty much everything. He told me that you know stories. Right there in the In the brief and He grabbed his meal and then closed the door and you did not identify him because he was never charged with any crime. No he was never charged a secret service declined prosecution. We took a look at his Local criminal records to see if that cave any kind of indication one way or the other That would talk to his motivation about the incident. And didn't there was nothing who's pretty clean when it came to his record and so we just decided not to name him although he is named in the brief well. It's interesting to me this incident even though we can't prove that there was any intent to harm president kennedy at the time it sort of foreshadows the events in dallas just a little more than a year later and apparently though it did nothing to stop the president from writing an open motorcade. Or at least that. We're aware of a word that the secret service started becoming more concern because of this one incident where they were. They realizing that he was much more risk in something like an open. Motorcade seems interesting to me the the close proximity of this to the actual assassination. The actual assassination was thirteen months after the springfield incident and there are a lot of similarities. president kennedy In dallas was in an open-top limousine Similar to how he was in springfield You know he was shot from above so there were a lot of similar similarities between the two trips And one thing we can't know at this point was what kind of conversations the secret service had Or president kennedy had after this incident in springfield If there were any conversations they're not in records that we can see or have been declassified. But i will say that one thing to keep in mind is that president kennedy himself didn't enjoy bulletproof glass. He wanted to be out in the open. And one of his most infamous quotes. Was you know if i'm paraphrasing right now. But if someone wanted to kill the president they would find a way to do so so Whether they took lessons from this springfield incident or not. There's no way of knowing if that trigger had been pulled in springfield if something had more aggressive had happened in springfield Whether that would have prevented dallas. I'd still to hear from people who were in springfield during that incident I think there are so many more stories to be told. I'm sure that there are witnesses seeing The two men either being arrested or seeing the rifle scope themselves or the illinois department of public safety employees I think there's still a lot more to learn about this incident. That interview took place two years ago and not much more has been discovered sense crystal thomas the reporter who was then with the state journal register has since moved on but we do have a link to her story about a rifle being pointed at president kennedy during a visit to springfield in nineteen sixty two. That was just a year before he was shot and killed. You can find that link at our statewide show dot com this past week. Mark the fifty seventh anniversary of jfk's assassination in dallas. That's all the time we have on statewide. We hope you're enjoying your holiday weekend. Be with us next time. We'll have more reports conversations from in and around illinois also like us on facebook. Keep up with the show each week. If you wanna find any of our past shows you can head over to the website. Statewide show dot com. Enter weekly podcast is available through the npr one crawford statewide as a production of npr illinois with her mother illinois. Public radio stations. Driving has rhythm all its own don't wreck with a text before you get behind the wheel. Silence your phone or better yet. Designated texter for more text. Free driving tips visit stoptextstopwrecks dot org brought to you by the ad council and the national highway traffic safety administration. I'm bobby with car clinic minute when it's raining. Do you hold your breath as you car. Struggles to start or run rough when it does. There's a simple way to locate it. Parts that act up with the weather. And when i come back i'll tell you all about it. Your battery goes dead. Everything could come to a stop. Don't take a chance on getting stranded. Stop by o. Reilly auto parts and get your battery tested free of charge. If your battery does need to be replaced o'reilly auto parts can help you find the exact superstar battery. That fits your car or truck at guaranteed low price o'reilly auto parts better parts better prices. Every day auto parts in doubt whether in your car runs rough until it warms up the problem might be moisture shorting out warned. Ignition wires to trouble shoot shops. Use a twenty five thousand dollars scope but you can use a two dollar bottle of windex. that's right windex. Here's how with engine idling. Ac on spray. Each spark plug wire with windex. When the windex hits the bad wire the engine will miss fire next spray the distributor cap coil wire coil with each part. Listen and look for the engine to stumble a shape when it does. You found the coke. I'm bobby liken likeness radio. It's nothing new. It's been here all along with free. Entertainment news sports music and information. It's not just part of life. It's part of who we are. You know which station is going to tell you the score of the game which one is going to give you a laugh in the morning which one will give you something to sing along with. You know where to turn when the weather gets round and something big happens good or bad you know where to go because radio has been here all along. 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You know invite you to his plate land or whatever it is. He has nine months later. The virgin birth happened again. We're happy ironic. That he could resurrect by me. Golden did jackson's baby. I'm i'll have michael. Jackson listened to free talk. Live seven nights weeks six to nine. Pm central time heartland newsfeed radio network and heartland newspaper dot com. Been saying to your friend. Get a different face and posting on their feed. Ugly thing online are cruel and they're not true. So tell your friend. i'll stand up for you. Don't worry i know to do know someone being bullied online. You can be a witness and make a difference by letting the world know. It isn't cool. Am i letting your friend know you care. Learn more at. I witness bullying dot org brought to you by the ad council keyboard cat hamilton. The pug and toast meets world. These are some of the internet's most beloved pets and they all have one thing in common. Their stories started in a shelter. Start your story. 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Cdc guidelines keep customers and their staff safe during the pandemic jessica compost with the center for rural affairs says even if the allure of low prices at corporate chains can be tempting. Most nebraska's realized that small businesses are the backbone for local economies as soon as we lose a small business not only do we lose an employer. We lose a school sponsor. We lose our neighbor. We lose a friend. There's a lot aside from economic damage that happens when we lose a small business. Small businesses have had to pivot how they do business during the pandemic including converting. Social media sites virtual storefronts adding curbside pickup options and contactless delivery nearly half of all small businesses in the us surveyed by american express. They need above average holiday sales to keep their doors open next year. I'm eric gladys cnn reports. The president-elect joe biden's victory of president. Donald trump in wisconsin was reaffirmed sunday. After recount was completed it would of the state's largest counties the week out and gain county which was requested by trump. Actually now of the president's lead by forty eight votes. Cnn says he completed recount along with. Friday's we count in milwaukee county leaves biden poised to be these certified winter when wisconsin elections commission certified. He state's election results not supposed to happen to moral and six months of passive the police killing of george floyd and people calling for social justice. Hope the movement doesn't fade away. In minnesota one organization is working to fund projects to help improve health equity for people of color and also for women. The american heart association is warning grants to minnesota women who are social entrepreneurs with a strong interest in closing the gaps in health outcomes. It's also creating a one million dollar fund to invest in community led solutions to health disparities. An underserved areas the tricia veto with the north point. Health and wellness center. Applauds the efforts way behind on when it's hell we need to do so much more that particularly in communities of color. I mean there's very little to go by For women of color and the more we get the more we know how to treat these things and know how to spend the money she says. Women often put family members. Health needs ahead of their own. Don't have as much access to female physicians veto says. Since george floyd's death the focus has been on police accountability while other social justice issues. Also need attention. I mike mohan fisa. Pms a new poll shows low income. Americans overwhelmingly support government programs that could add poverty and hunger spoke with more than eight hundred adults earn less than fifty thousand dollars a year and found those living near or below the poverty line face multiple barriers to getting ahead. Barriers made worse by the economic impact of covid nineteen according to joel berg. Ceo of hunger. Free america more than half of the people polled faced three or more such barriers and said they want to see government policies. that would make it. Possible to thrive policies that would guaranteed living wage jobs for all adults make quality housing and healthcare affordable and eliminate the benefits that penalizes people. When they work extra hours he knows the heroes act would provide relief including raising snap benefits. It was passed by the house in may but hasn't yet made it to the senate floor for consideration. I'm andrea sears. Reporting senator kirsten gillibrand points out that with so many businesses closed by the coronavirus. Dasa's board yorkers are now lining up at soup kitchens and food pantries to get enough to eat with the twenty twenty election behind them. The next political event in arizona and other battleground states will be the once in a decade redistricting process in arizona. Some observers anticipate major changes in boundary lines based on the growing number of latinos in the state over the past decade however lisa sanchez who teaches political science at the university of arizona. Orange zone as much anticipated. Blue wave may not have arrived just yet. The idea that arizona went blue during the last presidential election. I wouldn't interpret it such that. The politics on the ground in particular the partisan affiliation of individuals in arizona have shifted fundamentally sanchez says while arizonans did elect democrats in the presidential and senate races. It was business as usual for republicans in congressional seats and the state legislature. She says the state's electorate remains almost evenly divided along party lines mark. Richardson reporting finally are very sherman. Tells us more than a dozen groups banding together now to make sure. Ohio does right by his kids. In the state budget cycle the ohio children's budget coalition is ramping up efforts to maintain protect and strengthen public resources that support children coalition on homelessness and housing in ohio is among the organizations involved and advocacy director. Gina wilt says they'll use their collective voiced outlined policy priorities in the coming months. And sometimes we get into the silos and we can't afford to be silent right now. There's a potential two billion dollar shortfall. The governor he's gonna have a lot to look through and we must be in sync. This is by clifford. Four public news service. We are member a listener supported. Radio stations vigorous fall and online ads. Public do service dot. Org good sunday and welcome to the sports overnight. America nfl rewind. Now live with a call from phoenix. Your host andy door good evening. Good morning good afternoon. Like i always say to you people. I got absolutely no clue what time it issue i just know. It is the nfl rewind and sports overnight. America for me. Andy door. Welcome in everybody week. Twelve of the nfl rewind camera. Leave a man every week you hear say but each and every week i can't believe it more and more to be quite honest with you that much closer to playoff football meaningful game starting to happen and speaking of that some really stellar performances Like i always do the opening rant for ya. Green bay packers get it done. Emphatically aaron rodgers four touchdown night. I'm passing fifty thousand career passing yards. What a tremendous performance from that dude unbelievable performance from patty mahomes over four hundred yards. Four hundred and sixty two. Believe to be emphatic. And then tyree kill what a performance from that guy just a record performance performing performance from that guy two hundred sixty nine yards three touchdowns on the day the thirteen catches Just just miraculous day stuff happening on the football field forty niners not ready to lie down and say we're done in the nfc at all. They get a nice victory over the rams. Gotta like what the saints continue to do with or without drew brees in that lineup tastes some hill. Gets it done one way or another more often with his legs. Not and probably a good thing. When i think about that brown's again another team with a great running game. They keep continuing to pound that ball on the ground. Rightfully so great running attack. dolphins A win that they gotta get cardinals. They lose a game where they got to win a little bit disappointing in that one. Titans they flex their muscles man. What a performance. From derrick henry to that dude was a beast one hundred and seventy eight yards on the ground for him. The three touchdowns So much to get into. Obviously it is the nfl rewind. People andy door for hanging out with me here on sports overnight america. i'll be back. Oh funny hey travelers. Do you want to save money on your next flight. Then pick up the phone and call. That's right call because the best prices are not online. They're with smartfares. See smartfares has special deals with the airlines. When they have unsold seats they use smartfares to fill them. So you get airline tickets at ridiculously low prices. Our prices are to low to publish online with the extra money. You'll save you. Can book another trip or treat yourself to dinner or shopping so stop searching all of those travel sites to find the lowest price on your next flight. 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Right here on sports overnight. America andy door hanging out with you. Get at me on twitter. It's your phone sports and check me out on facebook or fund. Sports there and instagram. The real on sports and man. Oh man what a performance from aaron rodgers seriously just another one of those nights where you're saying we're watching one of the best fifty thousand career passing yards now putting himself in some pretty impressive company and this guy doesn't need a lot of games to do it either i think that's the theme and think about dot devante adams as well Wow think about what he's done in ninety five games five hundred catches. That's a little bit over. Five game five catches a game and this season. I think he's already got seventy seventy receptions and has missed a couple of games so couple of guys doing some special things for the green bay packers for. I'm going to run through the games. Give you the scores from the day. But before i do that just real quick. Wanna finish my rant. Vikings had an unbelievable comeback. Like kirk cousins was flat out amazingly navajo all game and the vikings wind up stealing. A football game doesn't always make me happy. Because i'm a huge green bay packer fan but got to give credit where credit is due. Bills men look josh allen. Just keep compiling victories and let people keep talking about whether you're gonna performer. Not because you're you are performing. And then the falcons. Feeding the raiders. Man the raiders really they laid a dud when they couldn't lay done so there's a little bit of a theme that i'm going to have for you throughout the program and one of them being for sure that certain teams that needed to step up didn't do it just in do it. Flat out and the raiders. You're one of them. If i could go back to a few days ago the cowboys you're one of them lions. You're one of them. If you want to be relevant at all had win those games the bills you had to win this game and you did like that giants who had to win. You did it again. They're not impressive. The foreign seven but you know what they had to wear because their division stinks so they got a shot. The titans and the colts both had a big game for both of them. One was gonna win. What was gonna lose. I guess i'm just kind of surprised with how easy the titans rate will do. not now. now. Let me run through the scores from the day. Packers do win. Big forty one. Twenty five over the bears a lot closer than it really was packers. were up. Forty one to ten at one point chiefs twenty seven twenty four over the buccaneers and again Another game that winds up sounding closer than it was buccaneers had to score fourteen points in the fourth quarter to make that a game rams a blown opportunity against the forty nine or team. That was ripe for the taking nick. Mullins once again does enough to figure out a way to help this team continue to compete and the rams you let one slip slip away. Twenty three twenty final their forty niners get the win saints. Thirty one to three. They just continue to march with or without drew. Brees brown's twenty seven twenty five. That game became a little bit. More interesting. i believe my glenn Doing it for the jaguars so nick huge game. One hundred and forty. Four on the ground touchdown baker mayfield to fifty six couple in the air a couple touchdowns so a solid all-round performance from cleveland. Dolphins go back to fitzpatrick. so more fits magic happens. Twenty two three they beat the jet s jets sheds jets patriots. Twenty seventeen they steal one from the cardinals. If you ask me cardinals up ten nothing to start that game no offense. Second third quarter fourth quarter. They get a touchdown but they're up ten. Nothing in you know what this was a game. They're gonna wind up saying we needed to win and they didn't do it so a team that needed a victory ending. Get it the cardinals. Vikings twenty eight twenty seven magical comeback over the panthers bad for teddy bridgewater because he did everything possible to put his team in a position to at least have a chance to win this game late and then the kick was just awful. So goodwin for the vikings twenty eight twenty seven colts gatt run all over by derrick. Henry forty five to twenty six behind those three touchdowns and one hundred and seventy eight yards and twenty seven brutal grueling touches and carries from jerick henry Bengals vega down to the giants nineteen to seventeen and the kid local kid finley for the for the bengals gets the start because obviously joe burrow's out and then my man daniel jones for the giants they get the win bills twenty seven seventeen over the chargers. Justin herbert really hoist the ball up time man. That's all i can say they're Do throws a volatile fifty two attempts converting thirty one of them three hundred sixteen yards and just the bills. Just a better team falcons. Forty three to six. Maybe one of the biggest shocks of the day to be quite honest with you The raiders potato for them for crying out loud four fumbles from them just really a disaster of a football game when you think about it when you're talking about late in the season man it's week twelve. You're playing a team that before. This game was foreign six year. You're obviously six and four and you need a victory. you don't get it they do. And i like derek carr and everything but never seems to like blow you away with his numbers. I do think there's something that may be a little bit of cause for concern with that. Because i i kind of wonder if this dude can win when he has to and this is one of those opportunities and i think you failed the test so it you have the answer right now. This was a bad loss. bad loss. There's going to be some bad losses in some good losses that that's that's maybe the theme for today. And the falcons beating the raiders. Bad loss for the raiders. Really bad loss for the raiders. Titans just just a nice win over the colts who were probably riding a very emotional high after coming back and being the packers huge win for the vikings. Got to be honest with you. He huge win for the vikings painful loss for the arizona. Cardinals huge win for the new england patriots That desperately like absolutely desperately needed to get a victory so again. Yeah that that's going to be the theme for today. Goodwin's and bad winds as we are coming late into the season. Dolphins goodwin win keeping them within striking distance of the bills. They're seven and four bills eighty three a browns again. It's twenty twenty. You know it's twenty twenty. When the freaking browns are eight and three are tied for the fourth best record in all of the nfl and saints again that they needed to and the broncos i feel bad for them to talk about that on the other side Four of their quarterbacks unable to play because of covid that was just kind of brutal real really kind of brutal for them. And you see what the nfl does for the baltimore ravens. So i kind of scratching my head questioning that one and chiefs in and obviously tampa tom. That was tough loss for them. Great win for the chiefs. I gotta break. I'll do it. Comeback continue rapping about the nfl man. Week twelve of the nfl rewind door. if it's the sports overnight america program. i'll be back. What scrap touchdown is sports overnight. America we are the debt destroyer network. Any debt you have credit card. Ted's student loan debt call now for free information. That helps you destroy your debt. It's great advice plus when you make this free call now. We have debt destroyer experts. 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Will your text design your book pages and create an appealing eye-catching custom cover loss our authors benefit from custom but promotion marketing campaign. That makes your book available where people buy books like amazon and brick and mortar bookstores. This free call right now to claim your free author's guy to publishing don't wait another day take one step closer to realizing your dream of becoming a published author and seeing your name in print. You've already written a book so the next thing to do is make this free call right now to doorns publishing and get your free guide to publishing call right now. Eight hundred four eight five six zero zero three eight hundred four eight five six zero zero three. That's eight hundred. Four eight five six zero zero three. This is a potter's field. When can't pay for their funerals they are buried here. It is a lonely desolate. Place littered with unmarked headstones. Were no one visits. No one leaves flowers but it doesn't have to be that way for as low as one dollar a day you could ensure your family will have the money to pay your funeral expenses. We offer burial insurance plans. The pay up to thirty thousand dollars considering the average funeral costs more than ten thousand dollars. That's peace of mind for your family are no medical exams. Your rates increase and your policy cannot be cancelled as long as you make your premium payments call now to get approved in minutes and ensure your final resting. Place is more than just a popper grave in potter's field. Eight hundred five one. Six two four nine nine eight hundred five one six two four nine nine eight hundred five one. Six two four nine nine again. That's eight hundred five one. Six twenty four ninety nine paid for by final expense direct. Four morioka could work out of the gun with derrick henry to. He's left mario pups that left leg. Scott the football gives hit repick twenty five yard line. Twenty cotton ten to the five to the zone touchdowns thirty five guards derrick henry to this is the game now more of a reward right here on sports overnight a barrel. Damn yeah you know. I think that that's kind of what he calls her saying. About one derrick henry as he just kept running all over him twenty seven times hundred. Seventy eight yards and three touchdowns later man unbelievable performance by him Just just remarkable. You know and i'm just kinda curious where he is when i think about the mvp race for the nfl because leaders patty mahomes and then russell wilson's behind him and aaron rodgers behind him waiting to see what russell will do because aaron was fantastic and obviously patty was fantastic as well so i don't think either one of those guys are going anywhere. Where's can cannery though like that dude. Just a handful there. There's eleven dude's coming after him and he just plows you over like a mack truck. Nobody wants to give that guy's way and rightfully so. I wanna take a little look at the standings and give you kind of an idea of what the playoff picture is right now buffalo. Who's eight and three and miami who is seven and four. They're both in new england. Five and six on the outside looking in for sure jets own eleven i through the question out there and it still goes are the jets go winless and are the pittsburgh steelers gonna go undefeated both. Have a decent chance of happening okay. So that's the scenario. Their bills in miami and right now i believe so. That would be two teams pittsburgh in obviously their undefeated. The brownies man again. Twenty twenty is freaking nuts. Because i'm not quite sure. Whether or not the cleveland browns are this good. Or it's just a little bit of luck and it's week twelve and they're eight and freakin three man. Cleveland browns eight and three in the postseason baltimore six and four on the outside looking in tennessee titans now that big victory on top of their division but the colts were seven and four. They're in kansas city ten in one therein vegas six and five costly loss. If i've done my math correctly on the outside looking in so that's what's going on in the afc and obviously still just a ton of things to be determined. Nfc east his joke. But it's going to be a joke. I guess that's maybe the way to put this. It's it's atrocious. The giants might be playing halfway decent football. They have won three straight They have looked decent on defense. Still don't trust daniel jones. Obviously but okay. Here's the situation. Four and seven four and seven them and the The washington team the giants and the washington team eagles still to play. Obviously monday night against the seahawks which must win for the eagles. Going to be tough. I don't think they're going to do it. So going to assume that the giants in washington will be a top that division packers eight three on top of their vision and big loss for the bears. Big win for minnesota but both teams basically three three and a half games behind the green bay packers three games in the win. Three games in the loss so that that's and we got five to play. I think the packers are winning at division. That's what i'm saying. Twelve and four. Maybe i've looked ahead a little bit. They have the titans down the road that that's maybe the one game i think could him trouble Lions i think bears on that one more time. Not a tough schedule. If you get what. I'm saying but the one game that does look a little challenging would definitely be the titans so the packers eleven five if they have a hiccup twelve and four if they lose to the titans thirteen and three if they went out all possible scenarios new orleans nine into kampe seven five taken ahead that was losing a kansas city. That was one of those bad losses. Bad losses good losses unbelievable performances. That that's kind of the theme of week. Twelve derrick henry was sick. Patrick mahomes was unreal. Tyreek hill was flat out nasty. Aaron rodgers passing fifty thousand yards and four touchdowns later davante adams getting to five hundred catches and ninety five games. Guys guys played some major roles today. Man gotta give. Those people shouts out new orleans. Like i said ninety two tampa town seven and five that that that lost might be costly seahawks seven and three ram seven four cardinal. Six and five again. They took a costly l. However tampa and arizona both in the post season right now again now. It's about how you finish about how you go out there and you finish you gotta finish. Strong can't let this be something that lingers like if you're in arizona cardinal team you just got to go back and get back to the drawing board and say okay we. We'd really blew it but we're not gonna let it linger when a move right on fastest thing you can. Do i think when you watch some of these things that make a guy like aaron rodgers and patrick mahomes so dynamic is that they can beat you it in a couple of different ways like aaron still can get. He can still use his legs but now he's known a little run pass option and he. He's obviously seeing things at the line and changing things last second. I just think when you watch guys like that you really get an appreciation for how well they understand the game. And how will they see the field. Patty momzette same thing man. I love watching that guy. Go out there after operate that. That's what i would call it. The aaron rodgers at times. He's out there. Operating patrick mahomes at times the majority of the time out there operating picking you apart like surgically just going through you an slicing you up making you look kind of silly. These guys are fantastic. They've they really are really really really good football players. I think if i had if i had my choice right now watching what i've seen so far for super bowl matchup. I do think roger's mahomes right now. It sounds really sexy dorfman. That usually like a guy that is into that kind of thing but.

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BPR Full Show: Calculated Risk

Boston Public Radio Podcast

2:45:26 hr | 7 months ago

BPR Full Show: Calculated Risk

"Support for boston. Public radio comes from mclane middleton a regional law firm with over one hundred attorneys and locations in woburn and boston serving clients for over one hundred years in the areas of corporate law tax law litigation and estate planning mclean dot com ahead on boston. Public radio congress's pests another round of stimulus paving the way for most americans received this third direct payment check while americans are overwhelmingly supportive of the stimulus. No republicans in favor this time around. Nbc political director. Chuck cobb will join us. And whether the gop has made a losing bet. Demel take your calls on the new special vaccination dates for teachers five jersey now seated in the trial of derek chauvin for the death last spring george floyd of women of color black man and three white men all appear to be under fifty years old had been selected so far then ken burns and lynn novick will join us on their amazing three part documentary on the turbulent life of ernest hemingway. All that's ahead and more on boston. Public radio eighty nine seven. Gp h magyari and. You're listening to boston. Public radio eighty nine seven. Gp good morning. Jim seventy degrees daylight saving coming vaccine websites. All i need is a doesn't pigs in blankets and i am all set. Let me tell you turn around. It's been a year since covid. Nineteen was declared a pandemic president. Biden's making primetime address tonight reflecting on the challenges in a way out of devastating year. Donald trump is marking it with a statement saying he hopes people remember his presidency when getting immunized against covid nineteen. Maybe bob woodward should ask trump to remember that you also refuse to act on the fact that he knew corona virus was deadly joining the line for this and other political headlines is chuck todd hugs the moderator of meet. The press switching kept sunday mornings at ten thirty. It's on nbc. Boston channel ten on most providers. Here it's also the host of meet the press alien. msnbc and the political director nbc news. Good morning chuck. Todd well happy march. Three hundred seventy six tackling. We are right at the march eleventh and sixty five. We got it all right. I no we just had to leap day. So you got three fifty three seventy six seventy six. Okay thank you so so so jet. Todd i'm done. I know what you think about. The kobe relief package. I think is supposed to be signed. On friday polls show overwhelming support even among huge chunks republicans one is highest fifty nine percent in other one forty one percent support so i. I'm wondering what it means that there was absolutely not a single republican. Vote here For going forward on this or anything else you know. it's funny. I we today. And i read our political newsletter. We did get a little reverse engineering right if you look at the sort of the big bipartisan. You look at sort of the things that have been very. Partisan that presidents have taken up versus. What's been bipartisan. And there's a there's a there's two patterns eddie merge number you know number one you know like no democrats supported. Trump's tax cuts republican supported clinton. I remember the clinton ninety three tax hikes. Or you know you only had like three republicans on obama's stimulus you have five democrats on bush's second bush's tax cuts but on nafta a bunch of republicans for on welfare reform. You had a bunch of republicans. No child left for privacy. I had a bunch of democrats for push if you take an issue that the other side has as a priority as a president. You can get bipartisan votes. But when you try to do your what you care about more you don't you don't get it you see the partisanship growth. It's obviously more concerted on the right than it is on the last And it certainly looks. It's a it's a strategy. For sure. I think on the right In this case With the spending bill. And i think it's risk. I think it's very risky. Because this is an economy that could be in great shape in an election year next year and people got their checks. There's there'll be things that people know they got. If you work for american airlines you already know you know this right with that. That's an email yesterday. Is the tariff your furlough notice. So i think that's the the riskier is that the republicans look like they weren't there for voters twenty twenty two and then the republicans got away with us in two thousand nine because the economy was still taking economy. Wasn't in good shape in twenty ten so it didn't look like the stimulus worked in the minds of people actually worked pretty well but it didn't. We didn't feel it deep direct checks. We're feel it you know. I agree with every word you said. I've been spending the last twenty four hours figuring out so assuming it does play out as you suggest and families with kids under six. Get three hundred dollars. A month with promises from democrats were going to make it permanent. What is the republicans say on the campaign trail my favorite. I'm sure but he's heard this already. Roger wicker the senator from mississippi tweets out praising in amendment that he and senator cinema filed the got twenty eight billion dollars to restaurants. He fails the mentioned in his tweet. Wally celebrating his success that he voted the damn package. So what are they going to say. I love fourteen hundred dollars. Did vote against it. But i mean seriously what are they going to say if it plays out positively as you suggested probably will mcconnell trying the the economy was already poised to take off. I did see that ed. You're like okay. you know. By the way by the way there are a lot of democrats. Donald trump had a great economy in in twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen that gave him some pretty and who and who created the foundation for that obama and how many democrats said that but who was getting the credit. Push getting the credit right. You can try that argument mitch mcconnell but you know democrats try it. Hey this this good economy is because obama left which was true right. it's like george. h w bush. He handed bill clinton growing economy. But it was in you know and we're just come out of recession but we didn't feel it yet. It this is you know it. Welcome to welcome to recency bias in the american public. It happens all the time. And i just think that. Good luck mitch. With that one well the economy is already gonna take off okay. This mean that there's going to be more and more pressure to get rid of the filibuster because clearly there's not gonna be any unity. There's not gonna be bipartisan voting. If they can't vote on this on the voting rights at sarah. What do you think. I don't know i look. I think a lot of this will be. How does biden approach The next big thing. He tries to do with congress. I think he's going go china. I think to if to to go to what i talked about earlier. If you reverse engineer How how presidents get deals done with bipartisan support. It's usually when you take up something that the other side is passionate about two in this case. Getting tough on china is Put it this way. If he can't get cooperation on getting tough on china from the right which i think he will. But let's say he didn't it actually would make then. Suddenly it's a lot easier to make the filibuster. Kc they won't even work with us and stuff. We all agree on And i happened. But i think the other way to look at it as if you want to sort of calm the waters a little bit. Try to prove that you can't do a big pipe partisan do it on china you know the interest are left and right are line right now and it's issue. The big bipartisan vote. Gets the big victory before the summer and he set up. Infrastructure is your is as the test case on. You know. I think what will happen. I'm pessimistic that there'll be bipartisan. Support for infrastructure. Even though on paper there should be. But i get won't be there and that democrats end up doing going alone on this but i also think the popular bill and it's worth going it alone on that but i think i wouldn't if i were them. I think you want to space that out. So you wanna show that you know how to bipartisanship q. China as being the next thing to do and set the fall up for infrastructure cops but if interest if there are a lot of democrats that want to actually pay for the infrastructure bill is opposed to this two trillion dollars. Then they're not gonna even get fifty much less republicans support right but the pay for on. This is going to be very difficult right. We already were seeing. I mean i. I don't i don't wanna get into the total weeds of transportation policy here that you know the toll between toll roads and the gas tax write. Cars are not gonna take gas. So how the hell are you gonna. you know. we're going to get that fun you know. We're we know that that is a diminishing way to fund transportation so that has to change but as the toll roads are not the panacea that some some in states have thought they would be and we've seen a lot of toll road problems of financing. And all this stuff. So i i think that is why they end up going it alone. I think the best argument you have in doing a big infrastructure package. Money's cheap right now you know zero percent borrowing that that's you can make a case of doing this with with with with a smaller chunk of tax increases so chuck how we want to get to whether or not donald trump is going to spend july fourth in jail in the second. But before we do that. I wanna stay on biden for one more minute and extend my lifelong streak of never having made a correct political prediction. I came around to the notion. That biden was the right choice for this because he was the most likely person in great part because of the bipartisan thing to be donald trump but i never saw an fdr like first hundred days with this guy. Did you see it coming and whether you did or not. We're did it. Come from it to me. It was more of i. I've been joking about this with my staff. I said you know. Joe biden to me. There was a lot of parallels to ronald reagan. Nineteen seventy eight. Seventy nine with joe biden two thousand eighteen two thousand nineteen. You know there were starts at the time and we forget reagan at sixty seven sixty eight sixty nine was the equivalent of being seventy eight or seventy nine today right and you know and i i remember a lot of looking at and i joked i said everybody. Thinks biden transitional leader. What's going to happen when he's a successful term president and he and he becomes the democrats reagan right. And and you know. I'm not gonna sit here and say that's that's a but it's more possible than i think people realize i think number. There's a few reasons number one accident of time right. You know reagan. Reagan came into office at a time when the country was desperate for a little bit of stability. And in a little bit of just calming of the waters. Well when you think about reagan's persona and biden's persona it's very similar right. Everything's gonna be okay. There's this grandfatherly aspects of thing and we just got out of just a very tumultuous twenty years from nineteen when when reagan. So there's so you have a country that kind of is open to it right. And i think that biden in that sense makes that moment. He's got the he's got the ability to pass a couple of big things here to do it too so i do think it sort of timing is everything on this and i also think that biden. Fifteen years ago wouldn't have pulled this up in some ways he needed to have his own political failures of the last twenty years to prepare for this moment. Just like ronald reagan. Who in some ways took twenty years to finally get to the presidency when you look at his career starting in the early sixties talking to chuck todd chuck on michael cohen course used to be the lawyer for donald trump who would not who would not tell tales wound up going to jail. He's now out of jail and he but he spent two and a half hours. He said for the seventh time. In a meeting with the manhattan. Da's office in manhattan da of course has Donald trump's taxes in one of the people he met with was this expert on white collar crime and put away john. Gotti the mob boss so this is looking troubling for the president and his taxes. I think it sure is. I mean my look. Michael cohen on. That stuff knows you know he may have. He is implied that he may have helped. Draw up papers. That sort of lied about you know lied about certain asset values right which is what got him certain ability to to get these whether it's a tax abatement or our. They pulled it off. So i i in these loans so it to me. This looks very precarious because he is somebody that even though you can claim that. Hey he's he's a proven liar and you know now he's cut a deal and all of this stuff he just keeps to me. He's a fact witness. He can point people in the. You know it's sort of the way. Remember rick gates. How just devastating. He wants to manafort 'cause he knew. How manafort operating right. So in this case cohen cohen can tell them yeah. This is how he did this and by the way that's how he does all these deals so then suddenly he can tell you how to point out the pattern and then see the pattern here. That's what i think makes them such a dangerous and i think trump knows it. I think he knows it. In this case cohen calling can be really the most devastating to him in manhattan than any of the other criminal cases. So what happens today. What happens to the trump loyalist super loyalists constituency when either sivan's or some county prosecutor georgia announces a criminal indictment of the former president of the united states. Say that you think he just plays the deep state card like i do. Think that trump i. I'm actually a if i were. I would be shorting trump's For the next two years. I would be shorting and maybe i'm an idiot. You know maybe i'll i'll be. I'll end up going bankrupt like the guys that shorted game stock. But i do think this stuff. I think this is like and i. I think i describe this to you before where we i think trump trump is like a riverbed you know you don't see the erosion you don't see the erosion if you look every day right but if you come once every six months you can see the erosion you know Of of how river can wrote a bank. And i think that trump's. I do think the things it costs them a little bit on the edges each time. It's a little bit more in the edges. It's not going. I don't know if it's going to totally shake the large chunk but it but they're slow erosion and and that's what you know that that that to me adds up into the go somewhere or do they just wait for the next trumpian figure to lower the man i mean. I think some don't vote. I think some don't vote. I do think the more you study the the who trump brought into here. You know those that leave trump's block. I think are more likely not to vote the next time than they are to. Just you know for that. Yeah well as many people have pointed out. Chuck todd this not everybody that had a show that was topping the ratings and did quite well for quite some years. It made you an international international but national celebrity apprentice. He had unique qualities. That i think are very hard to replicate even at this don juno. I yeah no. I think it's i think that that now the question i think we all have is is how many more celebrities do get more serious about running for office. Matthew mcconaughey I believe what meghan markle i think. There's one meghan markle for president. Recently i just report you decide But the point is all of this but the fact is i do think celebrity empowerment has never been greater and and the the sort of the power of celebrity and using celebrity for for pull up for a using politics to get famous. You know that's the other thing. A lot of celebrities have figured out how could make them more famous and can make them some money here. And i think that that's been. This has been to me that the the thing that i feared the most over the last twenty thirty years more people have figured out how to monetize losing campaigns for president. And when you can monetize your own personal success mike. Huckabee is to be the poster child for this. Mike huckabee became multimillionaire simply for losing campaigns for president and other people realize though. There's money to be made here. There's talk shows to be getting. There's book feels. There's there's tv contracts. There's podcast just start. You know there is a lot of upside into getting involved in politics win or lose. There's money to be made and the griff is so i do. Fear that that that that movement is is only gonna accelerate the president. The rock just doesn't flow off your tongue. You know just careful laughing exactly. Donald trump on there would be president either. Chuck pleasures always. We'll talk to you next week. Thanks thank you very much. Chuck chuck todd is the moderator of meet the press which you can catch sunday mornings at ten thirty. Nbc boston ten most providers. He's also the host of meet the press dan and msnbc and political director for nbc news. Thanks again to chuck todd joining us. Okay coming up. We're opening the lines. Eight seven seven. Three one eighty nine seventy three. Pr w. g. b. h. Dot org asking you about teachers and other school staff now able to get their covert vaccines as schools. Prepare to reopen. teachers parents. Kids anybody wants to call. We are open eight seven seven three and one in i seventy s next and boston. Public radio eighty nine. Seven g b h. Welcome back to boston. Public radio jim brown madrid and before we continue mardi. Just you know your first question about. Is there a bipartisan way forward. You were talking to chuck about come and go while we were talking in. The house passed a an expansion of the background. Check law you. How many republicans voted for this thing. That only ninety percent of the american public supports oh eight. Oh i'm surprised i would. Argue eight is almost nothing for a for a measure again. That nine out of ten americans support so i think might taylor green pull out long long long weapon debate. So is there. bipartisan way. Forward the answer. I think that in any case a year ago when krona viruses declared a pandemic thinking was solution getting over. This obviously was vaccine now that we have three three. It's amazing in under a year turns out they are creating problems as the state continues to reprioritize who gets one and win now. The teachers and other education staff have been moved up the line. Today's the first day. They're eligible for a vaccine. They also get a total of four days. That are dedicated to them. Only at the mass vaccination sites is great news for students parents educators it will also accelerate the weight or the rate at which the economy can reopen. It also means though that i i don't know a healthy twenty five year old teacher we'll be vaccinated before some eight year olds before some other older people with only one komo orbiting could be cancer We want to know what you think about that. We're taking your calls. Can you make peace with baker's plan and how the state is prioritized teachers and school staff. Do you think this is putting more vulnerable. People at greater risk. Are you resigned to the reality. There's not a perfect way to do this. Particularly in light of the fact that starting tomorrow a far fair and far less anxiety provoking centralized pre registration system is going into place numbers. Eight seven seven three zero one. Eight thousand nine hundred seventy four hundred thousand teachers and other educators moved up the priority list which obviously by definition means that other people are being moved down the priority list. They're just going to have to wait longer. Our schools And getting these people vaccinated so critical that charlie baker following joe biden's lead make the right choice. Eight seven seven three zero one eight hundred nine hundred seventy by the way despite this. If you do the numbers by the way i was wrong yesterday i was saying we were selling only getting one hundred thirty thousand dollars a week. We're getting close to two hundred fifty thousand quarter-million week but even if you do the math based upon what marylou sutter's is running this operation for the state of covid operation for the state at all the teachers and other schools that are not going to be vaccinated by the dates of reopening under this new power given to the education commissioner but at least it will be a start but i have to say if i was one of those eighty year olds who still waiting for an appointment or a sixty seven year old or something. I care about the kids. But i care about myself too so You know it's a tense off. Don't you think yeah. I think it's a ten straight off but it was obvious that the vaccines were not having everyone vaccinate going to hold up going back to schools. I think the the unions have made that very clear. And i think a lot of these every day. We read another terrible story about kids not going to school struggling mental health issues. I mean all these problems. I think getting kids back to school is huge. Just not for the kids but for their parents and for teachers will probably pretty sick of having to do remote learning and in classroom learning at the same time. I mean you still have the option to stay home If you want to. But i think it's major kid with their parents yes. I think the teachers are going to have a much easier time being back in the classroom where they used to. I mean so. I'm down with the with the vaccines for the teachers. Even though it's going to upset a lot of people and i can understand. We get these emails all the time for people that they're elderly themselves or their kids. I've been trying to get vaccinations for the elderly parents. And they can't do what you said. The pre registration site should should fix things. I think the fact that the teachers are getting special deals with with pharmacies resolving shot for them Through the end of march and these four days and the mass vaccination sites reserve them as pretty good. And i would think doing it because the reason you mentioned they're doing getting quotes special deal as you put it for the very reason you mentioned so that there's less conflict about re entry into the schools. I have to say we should be clear about this. Charlie baker says every day the issue was supply. Obviously there are some priority issues. He's making those decisions you can agree or disagree with this centralized pre-registration thing. I know we've talked about everyday. It's huge it is. He's not going to get you an appointment faster in all likelihood but it is going to allow you not to have to go to bed saying getting up at four. Am tomorrow morning to hope that there's an appointment available somewhere in massachusetts so it's a development and i have mixed feelings. I'm pretty much with you on this teacher. Slash educator thing but i'm trying to put myself in the position of somebody else who feels pushed aside rosary workers. I don't know if you yesterday thirty. Some legislators signed a letter to the governor about grocery remember how much we love them at the beginning of this thing and out critical they were. Workers googlers at your. Here's the thing you know. I'm gonna get deluge. I always do from people sending me emails asked me why hate teachers. I do not hate teachers. I just want to go on the record. I'm not fond of teachers unions. Because like award. Look i did not get the presents warlike. Jim did very similar to police unions. Who make it exceedingly difficult to get rid of teachers and they fight tooth and nail against reforms. Really we're not ridiculous. It's ridiculous if you've got the if you've got the award for the police department would you still have the same position on. Getting rid of bhagwati did not award from the police department. I don't answer hypotheticals. let's take some hold on not doing teachers. No we're not doing. But i do think it's time for the head of these unions to stop saying things like you know we shouldn't have to go through these websites like everybody else because we have to be at work all day. That's not a good pr kind of thing to complain At this stage of the game about the special deal. They're getting eight seven seven three zero one eight nine seventy. Let's start some car somewhere. Where michael is there michael. Welcome good morning guys doing today. Debris well thank you so. I am a full supporter of Teachers being prioritized. Now i mean. I like you guys say totally understand the frustration on people that are now having to delay even further that are in the current that were already in the eligibility group My thought processes these people. These teachers educators. They're molding and nurturing are huge their minds their behavior their how they treat people on a day-to-day basis for a large portion of their day And their lives. so they're making a huge impact on them that we should be keeping them safe for sure because even though we don't know yet if you can still transmit after being vaccinated. There's not enough on that yet You're still keeping them safe so they can continue to help. Educate our youth to mold than into the adults that are going to become to take over the world. one day. You know michael. I agree with you. But the counter argument to that and by the way mass dot gov just tweeted about four minutes ago five minutes ago due to high demand very limited vaccine supply from the fed's federal government will all have forty thousand i those points at mass vaccination locations for next week. You've been booked the response to you. I think i know is teachers over. Sixty five have been eligible before this teachers under sixty five. The science suggests are not a great risk and while i'm sympathetic totally to their fears regardless the science and we all say all of the science suggests the classroom is a safer place to be than outside the classroom and so one can argue. We've already protected that part of the educational infrastructure. That was most in need of protection. Do do you know what i mean. Yeah that's that definitely makes sense. I know it's a much lower risk in the classrooms especially if the schools are able to you know properly distancing math etcetera. For sure i. i'm yeah so again. It's one of those it's frustrating. I'm glad that we're you know protecting the teachers. I see what you mean. They'll follow the science. I've been a follow the science very beginning of this. I don't understand how people can't but michael having said that the political reality is also strong. And i think is margaritas point. And i think your point. And i'm i'm with you michael. Thank you for your call. Appreciate it eight. Seven seven three zero one. Eight hundred nine seventy others going to come a point relatively soon easy for me to say since i've had my first shot is going to come a point with we went. We were at one hundred. Thirty thousand doses. I think is recently as two weeks ago. We can half ago. We're now up to a quarter million almost a week almost twice as great a number the numbers. We're going to get to a point in the next few weeks where the finally surprise going to begin to catch up with demand or at least get a lot closer to demand saw i ridicule politicians when they say be patient but the answer is mentioned obviously the issue with the teachers to get these kids back gore many as you can back before they have another year with. We talked about this yesterday with no graduations. No senior year hanging out with your and stuff like that plus people who are really struggling. So that's the thing we're running out of time here. School gets out what road. We can june or something like that. We don't i mean we don't know what the summers are going to be. We should ask paul revelator. What is this summer. Plan in districts around the state. I don't know if there is one in boston. Your next one. Boston public radio. Hey there hi. i can't believe i got through. I think you taking my call. Sure so I have a couple of things first of all Back when Old people were allowed to have somebody bring them and that person was allowed to have a shot. that was They still are as far as i know. Yeah so. I think that's a good thing because who is taking care of these old people. It's their younger relatives. Which brings me to my second. Point is that Family caregivers which i am. One of family caregivers have not been prioritizing along with other caregivers. We should have been Prioritize because we are the people who are standing between our loved ones in my case my sister in an institution So we are the ones who are keeping them at home caring for them at home and i've awesome said if i get covid me and my sister are screwed because who's gonna take care of her. You know more go. That's a good point. Your second point is a powerful and the only place. I disagree on the first one about the buddy system. Thing is who is able to take time to go with someone over seventy five years old and the data suggests it's not people to use your word who are getting screwed by this vaccine access thing so far people of color who are for the most part lower income in this state and they get shortchanged by that buddy system which is one of the reasons that so many people talking about equity is. They should all the time. Say the most important thing. And the governor's doing more of this now is to bring the shots closer to the communities in which people live in addition to the vaccination sites margaret. Good luck with your caretaking. We appreciate you know as we said before. Everybody's got a good reason why they should be almost through. This is this is this is from deb. She's i don't feel it's fair. That teachers are getting bumped up just because of a powerful union. It's not fair. i've been lucky to get a vaccine for my mother who's ninety seven but it was very difficult. I have worked as a dental for months since onto with people who are not wearing masks. Obviously because they're in the dental chair and just using proper p p was enough to protect us so the dentists dental hygienists. That's funeral people people that ride the t- the grocery workers clerks at stores. I mean everybody's got a good reason. But i again. I think that what how we started by age is because older people are most likely to die. I mean that's the reason so it's a pretty good reason. Don't it's pretty good reason or get very very sick. I mean that's it. That's it is not going to get your vaccine because we got that you're not gonna get a vaccine because you're probably not going to make it and from an island. Thank you for calling guys. Sorry today could well. I am in a very unique situation here. I live in rhode island. What's happening here is not dissimilar to massachusetts the governor. Our new governor has announced that teachers are being prioritised here as well so I'm full of consternation Over that i'm a sixty one year. Old guy who four months ago had heart valve replacement surgery and and invited and it came out of the blue is never a smoker I'm in reasonably reasonably good shape This is background. that's relevant. i think and they they just called idiopathic. Sometimes you don't know why contract heart disease and I did have high blood pressure. I was taking medication for that anyway. Sixty one years old I have now A condition with a new heart valve where my surgeon says. If you catch kobe now you're a dead man and those are those are his exact words. And so i cannot get an appointment to get the vaccine because i'm only sixty one and i you know i've got all this other stuff. Other states are are rewarding bad behavior in their smokers and prioritizing them. Those are you know. And that's that's definitely not me and here's another thing to rhode. Island is a small state so a lot of our teachers actually come from massachusetts. So the governor has announced if you're a teacher regardless of where you live You can get the vaccine here. In rhode island so people from massachusetts are now getting vaccinated before me and so had are you in the lowest county in massachusetts in the lowest tier the lowest priority group. Are you in lowest priority. Grew up in your state. It depends on what you buy low i. I think they're they're doing sixty five over now. But i'm only sixty one knowing understand that some saying got you don't qualify on that level you have a i guess a single co morbidity in our state you'd be in the general population and which is the long wait and i'm sympathetic state as i'm sorry go ahead go ahead in our state. We've said this before. If you i always hesitate to say this quote if you only have cancer and that's not have the second co morbidity You're not eligible until the bottom tier. So ed you have sympathy here. But he do had good luck and stay well and stay inside. I would argue if you can until your time comes. Eight seven seven three zero one. Eighty nine seventy. You said so right margaret. Everybody has a compelling reason. I don't mean a healthy twenty seven year old but virtually everybody else really has a compelling case all right from west which i won't read the whole email. He does make a good point though. Mass teachers is much wider than the general population. We're talking a lot about vaccine equity. This means that you're going to be vaccinating. A lot of white people but anyway he's is the way it's going. I won't be eligible for vaccine until twenty twenty five. Well i mean it's actually that's not true. Well he's exaggerating. But i think that's certain gestures stoughton. Yesterday was talking about how she said. She's a thirty eight year old. Stay at home mom. And she says her neighbors also in their thirties and lower situations have really recently gotten vaccine appointments by fudging their status claiming to have co morbidity because they smoked in college or put on a few pounds since the pandemic she says some of the research of workers so she doesn't begrudge them but she's in the neighborhood we're all very liberal and progressive. So i'm surprised they try to jump the line and take doses away with those with higher needs and less access. I'm a little disappointed and disgusted decision to do this. Where were those two women who were young women who had wigs looking like old people florida where they did trying to get caught trying to get in any case. The vaccines are coming. They're coming greater volume but they're not coming quite fast enough. So we're talking about vaccine vaccination day for teachers asking you. This is a good day for parents students. Educators or a bad day for people who are getting pushed down the line. Listen eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio a wreck. Welcome back to boston. Public radio jim brady and modrica dwell on this. But i think they're two hundred and eleven republicans in the house that means two hundred and three of them thought that expanding background checks for guns was not a good. I just this country and disgrace. It's great disgrace if you're just tuning in. We're talking today about today. Being the first day of teachers other school staff other. Educators are eligible for the vaccine they will also have four days specifically dedicated to them only to get vaccinated mass vaccination sites asking if you think is the right things rub you the wrong way or is it good because it's gonna make the reopening schools a much more peaceful exercise by the way you know we have governor was with a couple of weeks ago. I think he made pretty clear obvious to me. How much cares about this. Even if you don't agree with all his decision making. I think he became clear again yesterday here. He is getting pretty emotional at this press conference on the anniversary of the emergency order and talking about the strides have made in fighting the pandemic with respect to things like ppe manufacturing. Obviously the rollout of the vaccines. Here's a little taste of Governor baker so this is the one year anniversary of the signing of the of the executive order here in massachusetts. This is really in some respects a very special moment in a happy anniversary in some ways for the commonwealth massachusetts by the way that six second pause was not because he was fumbling through his notes. He got really emotional. If you didn't see it. And i think i mean i wouldn't would you want to be making these decisions about nowadays margaret. It's it's there's like. I said there's no i i don't know if there's a fair way to do this. I don't know if there's a fair way to do it. Our number's eight seven. Seven three zero one eighty nine seventy with today's a big day for teachers some will be getting vaccinated today because The some federal shipments are going directly to some pharmacies for which they are eligible and They can start signing up today by the way remind people again. The new way site will be operational tomorrow. And that's the one where even if you're not yet eligible everybody can register. They'll be putting the priority order and you will be notified. You don't have to go through the daily or hourly travails of trying to get unemployment hitting refresh thousand times. You'll be notified so It's probably should have come earlier but the fact that we finally have a centralized pre registration system starting to mars a really good thing. He's mariette with another good point. Students in classes required to wear masks services and restaurants have to wait on people who are not wearing masks. And you know she feels. The service in. The restaurant should be moved up the line as well. There's a lot of people dennis's you said dan. Dennis saturday morning. I mean it's hard to get your teeth cleaned with a mask on various sort of the problem. And i'd be very nervous if i were dentist or dental hygienist as well so gentle hygienist just email tom from framingham. Thank you for calling tom. Hi thanks for taking my call and happy corona versity. Thank you the you know how. The first year of an anniversary traditionally paper yup. I'm so i'm getting rolls of toilet paper for all my colleagues at work. Sure they'll enjoy that. For this reason i'm calling is unfortunately. Our healthcare system is based on competition. And so there's always gonna be winners and losers. It's hunger games out there. I feel so sympathetic towards all the That i'm hearing for people But you know. I am not sure what what else do about it unless we really sort of are able to somehow overhaul how we do how we do healthcare wait. What are you talking about the equity issue in particular talking about the whole picture. I'm talking about equity yes for most but the fact that not every single person we've spoken to about equity or inequity in the healthcare system said has said without one exception that the inequity in as a result coronavirus people of color dying higher eight getting vaccinated at a much lower rate is just a continuation of what has been with us in terms of healthcare delivery in this country for years and years and years and the hope is that since the light is shining this farmer brightly than it has in the past because everybody's covid nineteen obsessed that we come out of this not simply talking the talk about fairness in the healthcare delivery system but doing something about it so And i were clearly not doing enough now. Because you look at the numbers and the percentage of people of color who have been vaccinated compared to white people and comparing that to their percentage of the population dom as i'm sure you know is pitiful. It is yeah. And i hope that we can. I hope that we can fix it. Little sore tom. Thank you for the call. We appreciate you also read stories about people that have that so called concierge service where you pay extra money in your care that they were able through their physicians But i have not heard that much locally. I've heard that more out in the west coast. And i've also heard that. There is a of disgraceful story. Down in florida where the big donors to garages santa's campaign. We talked about this the other day where they were getting a prioritize because they donated money for a million bucks was well. You know you've also heard about a lot of wealthy donors on hospital boards when hospitals were getting any i think an even greater share of the vaccines A lot of massachusetts they were getting a huge share then they were getting nothing and now they're back in the mix but the notion that because you're a wealthy philanthropist who chooses to give money to a hospital that you'd move ahead of somebody who is eligible before you is is just it's totally a predictable but completely unconscionable to chance in cambridge. Thank you for calling a jones. Hi i just wanted to say that teachers are frontline workers Children do get cove it and they do. Pass it on l. Make a little announcement here. That teachers and children basically in this country are often relegated to the bottom of the list The teachers spend their own money on supplies already. I don't think they should be expected to risk their life All front line staff. Nineteen the vaccination Ice and teachers who are responsible for the next generation the salaries comparable to what they do They have the ability to teach virtually whether it's optimal or not is not the point here the way they excuse me janice they don't as of the new rule power that was granted to the commissioner of education. Jeff riley he can order the schools open and has starting early april. And i don't know what will happen. If teachers or reset of teachers choose not to come. Parents cannot their get out Teacher cannot opt him or her self out. And i think that's one of the reasons. Why sort of going along with that at the same time. The governor was supporting that move by his education. Commissioner it made sense if we're going to mandate that they come back then it makes sense. I guess baker would argue. I'm sure he would argue. Governor baker would argue they be vaccinated for They return and not here. You genesee make a good case for them and thank you for the call but his marty one thing. Why do you think teachers a. I don't think teachers are in last place. I mean an certainly not. Maybe in west. Virginia but i think teachers are held in high esteem around here certainly in boston and surrounding communities teachers do very well Financially and benfit wise. I don't think they're in last place. Let's to ashley in boston. You're next on boston public radio. Hi there hi how are you doing. we're very well. Thank you So my point is that I work at a college and We're not harvard or the schools that could be fully remote that we've been in the classroom since last semester every single day mass to mask or face to face with students and we're not even part of the conversation about educated. We haven't had the opportunity to be fully remote because again you know school. The worried about closing down until they have us in the classrooms teaching students every day. Well i would add to your argument. The evidence is such that a teacher in a lower grade. Let's say k. Through four is working with the student population which generally is under the thumb of their parents. And it's likely that they'll engage in safer behavior when you're dealing with someone who's eighteen or nineteen or twenty years old. The evidence suggests they're going to be much more irresponsible which puts you at greater risk than even that k. Through four teacher so actually. I'm glad you brought that up. I have not understood. Why people in the higher. Ed business are not in this group. But they They're not so. I wish i had an answer for you but ashley. I'm glad you put that piece of information into the conversation. Thank you for going you know. Here's a great email from lorraine from new hampshire says almost everyone could consider themselves to be in a priority group if everyone is a priority not much changes. I don't have a solution until we get enough vaccines and that that is the bottom line is the bottom line but i think well it's half the bottom line the other half the bottom line is we're not gonna adequate supply and the governor says every day and he is factually right of course then. Your obligation is a leader is to make. This is unstressed while people are waiting as humanly possible. And i know. I'm a broken record. And one of the ways to reduce the stress is implementing. What he's doing tomorrow. It should have been done a long time ago. I celebrate that it is finally going to happen tomorrow. But if you can't give vaccine than do something to deal with the psychological pain that people are suffering through. Because they're on a long waiting list. Kathy of new hampshire. Thank you for calling kathy high. I'm really walking fast. They're still from out of breath since mile for about twenty minutes but anyway i am a retired educator with many family members still teaching and some have been teaching in the classroom right from september on i think we i don't know if this has been mentioned or not but because i didn't hear the whole decision but when you think about a year ago almost overnight. Every teacher had to pack up everything in their classroom. Go home redo. All their plans. In start remote learning every family was impacted. Mostly women and the people who are least able to get to internet broadband. where even more impacted so then steph. Teachers were taking it on the chin. If you're not going to be in the room still get paid blah blah blah. All that stuff so then now you get them in priority to be vaccinated and everything could kind of fall into place for the mostly. The mothers who have to go back to work they can get back to work. Teachers commend be in the classroom on a more consistent basis. Because while you're talking about follow the science one of the things. I i'm not sure. People pointed out the social science beyond the impact of the kids is the inconsistencies. You get every day with so and so has been exposed to covid. You have three students who are pouring team and then they'll be three teachers out because they were exposed they don't have it but they have the corn king so then you're scrambling within the classroom to get coverage. You don't have enough substitute teachers. You don't have to you arrive. I mean we are so much time here. Be sure you're you're saying it's a good idea. Now to get the teachers prioritize and get them vaccinated right because then you have a whole a whole. It's like a domino effect. Right they can be in there. They'll be safe. People can get back to work. Kids can be in more consistently and you get back to normal kathy. I mean i can't even talk when i'm walking so thank you It was very impressive. Thank you enjoy your rest of your stroll. we appreciate it and don't forget we. I think we said this is the beginning. President biden is really pushed. This you gotta get these kids back in the classroom. You're gonna get the teachers so you can get the kids back in the classroom. He's the reason Baker push this up biden. Did i say president biden. I'm just saying that. The governor baker is explicitly said. I did it because President said to do it and in light of the fact that we're about to get many billions of dollars from the federal government thanks to the president's initiative might be a good time to For the governor to say. Thank you mr president. What do you want me to do. I'm doing it and so okay coming up. I'm gonna talk andrew abroad for an update on the derek chauvin trial. He of course is on trial for the alleged murder. George floyd we're going to talk to her about what has happened to the biden's misbehaving german shepherd all that is next on eighty nine seven. Gbh boston public radio had them boston. Public radio cabrera will join us on the start of the trial of derek. Chauvin for the killing of george floyd then for a man who strove to write with clarity and truth. Ernest hemingway's life surrounded by myth and legend documentarian. Ken burns his has collaborated. Part series about hemingway's turbulent wife will join us to discuss the collaboration which will air on. Pbs starting april. Fifth at the state unfrozen new bridge bridge station process with covid nineteen vaccine if also announced a handful date set aside for educators to get ears. Stand ficials want all elementary students in the classroom by april leaving teachers concern. They won't be vaccinated in time for education secretary. Paul rebel joyce's gusta latest in school reopenings and morehead boston. Public radio any nine seven. Gp you're listening to our number two of boston. Public radio eighty nine seven gp h logan. Jim i just want to follow up on one thing that henry santoro to said he's talking about the resolution was filed by senator warren and sheila jackson-lee on the th anniversary of the massacre in tulsa. Which we've talked about a lot and how little we knew about it in advance. I had carmen fields. The who used to work here many years ago carmen fields on. I guess a couple of weeks ago on tv. She's responsible in great part for this fabulous film that was made in the early nineties. That's now available. Online called a gone back to town which describes the whole situation that greenwood community. It is brilliant and heartbreaking. Same time. But i would really check it out. Gone back to tear down and her father by the way you wrote music or play the music. I guess that is part of the film. It's brilliant and worth seeing any case joining us line for this week's edition of law and order zander. Kerala anders a former suffolk county sheriff former secretary of public safety for massachusetts and now the ceo of a. Hello there injured cabal. I watched that interview. You did with common and it was fantastic fantastic. It really was. Wow you know it really was great and it just covered All of her work on the film and You know like you said her. Father did the score It was it was fant if people should at least pull up the greater boston segment on demand. Watch the interview and then go watch. Go from my guys thank you. It's great broadcaster to attach it. Broadcasters a great candidate for mayor. I thought she really ran a great campaign and she didn't win but she ran very gracious woman. I think talent in any case. Hello andrew how were you very well very well. So derek chauvin strauss is beginning. They're picking jurors. You can probably explain this to make your lawyer andrew. Good bra supreme court out minnesota just tonight. His lawyers petitioned resolve what he'll faces other charge. A third degree murder thing that. What does this mean that. I'm going to apologize in advance. Before i try to explain what's going on in this trial because If i end up sounder sounding like a you know a blithering idiot. I'm sorry but so. I'm trying to make this. Is this possible. So the trial judge K hill had Well let's hear the attorney. General in minnesota is the one prosecuting this case. It's keith. ellison who used to actually be a congressman He filed us third degree murder. Charge against show that was among the charges. The murder charges that were filed the trial. Judge dismissed it because there's a lot of case law a long line of case law in minnesota around. What third degree murder. How it's defined right. It's considered to be depraved heart murder and in the vast majority of cases that has always been defined as when the the murder. That results is not The result of that person being targeted. And you know it's it's this weird so essentially you can be charged with depraved heart murder if murder results. But it's not because you picked out a certain person or you were targeted. A certain person traditionally you can't charge depraved heart murder if the the object of the murderer is someone that you intended to harm or kill yeah right. So the judge who threw it out actually threw it out based on finding The nor case and off people might remember the case. That was where a woman who is an australian national was shot by a police officer in minnesota and there was a lot if you're around because a police officer was a person of color And ultimately depraved heart murder was charged in that case when nor went up. There was an ended up with a divided court opinion on depraved murder. The majority held that You could not charge Depraved heart murder. If the person who was murdered was targeted I'm sorry it's three. I i told you this is going to be hot. Said that the majority ended up holding that you could charge. Deprave talk murder. Even if the person who ultimately died was someone who was targeted. That was the individual the descent and it was. I think it a split decision said that the opposite in what k- hill did is the trial. Judge's he agreed with the dissent enor- any any held that because noor hadn't completed its appellate journey up to the michigan the minnesota supreme court It wasn't of any precedential value. What happened to today. Was that the minnesota supreme court Declined to clarify anything with regard to third degree. Murder declined to hear the case which meant that. The appeals court ruling stood which said no no no. The nor case is precedent. You can charge depraved heart murder under these circumstances. And that's why k. Hill had to reinstate the charge. Would you know really. But that's essentially what happened. And so here's why it matters. So here's here's white matters. Ellison is charged chauvin with something they have in minnesota called second degree unintentional murder which sounds completely opposite massachusetts and he's also charged him with second degree Involuntary manslaughter so these things matter. Because it's about the intent requirement. The reason why ellison wants the third degree depraved heart murder charge to be reinstated is that it adds something for the jury to consider. So if you're going to consider someone Someone's guilt on second degree involuntary murder. It's murder committed during the commission of a felony but carries a specific intent requirement. Right and if it's third if it's second degree involuntary manslaughter. That's almost like saying that. Chauvin put george floyd at risk that he was negligent and most people. Don't have that reaction to watching those eight minutes of him. Kneeling intentionally on this man's net third degree murder is depraved. Heart murder which means That essentially you approached it with a depraved top. Your your conduct was so either reckless or wanton That you put traditionally in minnesota a bunch of people a at risk versus just the one and that will be the issue that goes up so they. So i think he's choosing this because he's not sure ellison isn't sure where the jury is going to fall between intent And you know people always think in terms of the potential penalty and the facts of the case which are further complicated by the defense in this case which is going to be that he's died because he had of a drug overdose and that essentially chauvin kneeling on his neck and compressing his His chest and back for eight minutes wasn't the actual caused. So i think listen wants to charge the upshot of all of this. Is that after all of this of tea dismissing the third degree murder charge putting it back in when it goes up to the minnesota supreme court the minnesota supreme court could overturn the decision in the nor case and it may end up getting thrown out altogether. Can we go back to defense and it does. Yes i'm a little confused. I must admit. I won't belabor it. I'm totally don. Not totally confused. Talk about the drug thing for a second. That is going to be their defense. He didn't die. Based upon the behavior of chauvin he died of a drug overdose and that is just not just. That's an expert witness thing they're going to all these people are going to be called by either by both sides. I assume one side suggesting he may have had a drug issue but it was not the cause of his death and the other side obviously arguing the opposite is so potentially since the video is so incredibly damning. I assume that's what this case is gonna come down to right. Yes i mean. I think that. I don't think that the defense has a great shot and walking around. You know that in even certainly in civil cases you sort of take your plaintiff as you find them. So if you hit someone with your car because you're driving recklessly and that person has Some pre existing head injury to benefit from that. You can't benefit from that and you can't say that it's you know it's the fault of the the of their their conditions they existed when you did whatever it was you did to them. So i think that that's that's a real steep hill for them to climb but you know. Trials are about more than a lot more than logic. Sometimes they're not about logic at all or facts at all And if you look at it and they know that if they're anybody if there's anybody on the jerry looking to exonerate this police officer which gives us video i would think would be really difficult And looking for a different reason they could hang their hat on that. And that's what this defense is looking for something to hang their hat on warning for. Its disagree that this could have been an overdose at all said that it just just didn't have any of the the look of an overdose even the amounts in his system of sentinel were insufficient To cause an overdose. Oh but i'm sure they'll find one or two experts. That will disagree with that. By the way people don't know what the status of the cases jury selection started and as of the end of yesterday. I don't know what's happening today yet. They've seeded five people. And i think they're looking for fourteen in my right about that. Twelve plus two alternates is souther a third the way to Impaneling jury what's the highest profile cases of recent time. The way engine. We know that they're going to be expert. Witnesses that are kind of said. This has been qatar across steam on fox news. This is all about setting now about in a knee and neck but They hit medical. Examiner formally declared floyd's death a homicide and listen called cordier cardiopulmonary arrest. Now are they going to undermine the credibility that medical examiner has to do mystery. Yes cardio cardio pulmonary arrest caused by right. They're going to try to argue. That whatever neck compression agreed to which any any drug in his system contributed to that. It's that jury should take that as determinative versus cutting off his ability to breathe. Okay she's the most direct way to kill someone when when he is clearly intentionally dealing on this man next like i said i think it's a very steep hill to climb but there have been cases against police officers where Rodney king comes to mind. Where you kinda think you know. How do you not see that. But we're talking to andrea cabral andrea. I don't know if you're watching. Cnn last night. john dean of nixon. Famer infamy was talking about the fact. That michael cohen yesterday. The former fixer. We discussed this with chuck todd in a legal way. More of a sort of a cat. You know just an observer kind of way. His seventh made his seventh appointment seventh. Visit yesterday's resume yesterday with prosecutors in manhattan around the issues of trump's tax returns and related. Things it's not too strong characterization with dean had to say to suggest that he thought seven visits is generally and you're a former prosecutor for those who don't know when the prosecutors want to wrap up every single detail make sure they're witnesses ready in that sort of thing he thought it was a prelude to an imminent imminent indictment of the president former president and possibly others the agree with his analysis. Yes that's entirely possible. I think the other possibility though is that they may have Gotten additional information from weisselberg a matching it to what they've seen in the tax returns finance collins. Help on yeah. I think that's a possibility as well. But i mean john dean could be right but we do know that the tax returns were just turned over and that is you know just volumes and volumes of information and we do know that weisselberg has been cooperating and that cohen Was involved in a lot of that. So you know it could be doubting is and crossing t's just before but it could also be Looking at additional charges or shoring up the ones. They've already decided. On one of many other potential criminal prosecutions of former president may be facing could be out of this county prosecutor in georgia. I assume most people have heard this that the came to light yesterday. Courtesy the wall street journal. Here's a another phone call made by then. President trump was december twenty third. He's speaking of francis watson. Who's the chief investigator for the georgia's secretary of state's office. Let's just play a little piece of this everything but georgia georgia by a lot and the people allah tapping into something bad happened when you be praised people will say lake twitter about that ability to check right because everyone knows it's wrong so you have to explain to me. We just discuss what the defense of dark show. Wtn's going to be in the killing of george floyd. What defense is there to these phone calls to this phone goal to the coal to ravensburger the secretary of state considering the power differential The public statements of the president and then these private phone calls that were taped. What defense if he's charged as donald trump have here. That's a really good question. i'm sure that he ultimately will mount one. I mean i you know. We've we've become so a nerd to The the the insanity of his behavior and how I just really out words enough to describe the level of corruption. And all of that. But this is the president of the united states calling a very local elections officials and coercing them openly coercing them brazen election interference. But as you say the power differential is just calm. I mean she. The woman francis watson actually says. I'm quite frankly shocked You know that you would take the time to call me about this. And it's such a study in how desperate he is to hang onto the presidency But it's also to. Adam shifts point made during the first impeachment trial when the senate decided to ignore the fact that he was also on the phone. Extorting a foreign leader to get dirt on joe biden. He's only going to escalate his behavior. And this is exactly what he did. The call to rapids. Burger the call to watson. I'm sure that there were other calls. Made in this case. He sent mark meadows down to georgia to soften her up before his phone. Call and there. There's some indication of the phone call that mark meadows might not have been particularly Persuasive because as he says on the call mark wanted me to call so whatever whatever you know advance work does did. He must have come back with a report from watson that he wasn't sure she was going to do anything. Because of course you know the first line would be to get somebody like meadows to go down and convince her to do it. That i think maybe that wasn't working. So he placed the call himself knowing full. Well we should know full well all that that implies but that's what he intended. He did the same thing to brian. Kemp he did the same thing that the governor of jordan so yeah to me it's it's brazen election interference. I think it's you know he certainly can be prosecuted. And i think it's right up. Rico's allie you know. I know the voters of maine reelected her by a big margin but members a susan collins saying how after the first impeachment trial the president clearly has learned his lesson he did learn his lesson that it could get away with anything he just right right around the opposite of what she was implying by saying that he'll be he'll be chastened he won't do this kind of stuff again. Talk about another injustice. Though do you want to introduce this. Because i know this matters a lot to you marguerite as well as i'm very upset about this. That poor major in champ have been banished from the white house and apparently they're still missing their mommy and daddy because i think champs that was only three years old out of a shelter bit somebody. There's this glowing defense. I think is from cnn of the dog. Saying of course. Poor champ was its major cam. Sorry sorts because his whole life admit is rooted when he left the delaware a house and was brought to the to the white house new people new environment terrible abuse the dogs to be sent away from their mommy. What do you think thanks see more often. I mean i side with no matter. What the edible is involved or i am always gonna take the side of the animal so you know whatever whatever major did whoever he did to come and that's my that's my position on all of that but yes they're changing their environment People who handle them really do have to know how to handle them and then people who approach them. I mean you know you see kids all the time the doggie and they run up you know without knowing but They should have been i. I'm sad that they're back in delaware. I hope that they're coming back to the white house because this is a big deal to have the first rescue dog. It's a big deal to have dogs back in the white house You know. And i don't know the extent of the person's injury it seems it was described by jen psaki is a minor incident. But they need to adjust like everybody else needs to adjust. There are a lot more people now around the people that they protect and so anxious. I'm sure they're anxious about that. And someone may have you know gotten a little bit too close or you know. Made the made major nervous but he should come back because he knew should both come back right geriatric come back and they and they're getting a cat supposed to be two things about this if i may One my understanding. I've heard this from reliable sources. What the president biden had said to the dog was go get mitch mcconnell and he misunderstood the name and so he got the wrong okay but putting them on a serious for a second. I know we're treating the semi lightheartedly the reason we wanted to do it. Beyond the fact that. I know you love animals now. I love dogs after a lifetime without them and now my kids adams i get to see them quite a bit is this sends a horrible message. It seems to me the dog owners. It basically says if you have a misbehaving dog even if it turns out it's not the fault of the dog which almost never is but as you said andrew the fault of changing circumstances which you weren't sensitive do. The solution is to banish. The dogs from apple tablet joe and biden and his wife and the notion that their exile exile their mommy and daddy. They don't see their mom just fun. I think it's terrible. I think it's the biggest misstep joe biden made since he got to office and i think he'd been rectified. Bring them back from delaware they should impeach him right marjorie. The story says dogs feel pressure and stress. Imagine a level of chaos poor champion major experience. Well they're being ron too but i don't really think i don't think it's worthy of impeachment. But for office we could be doing some additional sort of training and some could be happening. I my when i'm waiting for is for them to come back if they were if they left permanently And you know because of and not based on the need to put them in a less turbulent environment but i mean other other presidents have had dogs. They've had cats and and they've been none the worse for wear so. I'm just hoping that this is Very temporary because people were very excited to have major and champ someplace person. Listen this is a great email from robin. Robin says major the megan markle of german shepherds uprooted and like meghan. He fights back. of course. you can't really fight back because he's back in delaware but you know he's exiled exhau- but it's absolute right makes german shepherds look that and it. Was this story points out dog bite. Usually because they're afraid or they're threatened they get excited or they've seen all these new people and they're playing around and talking shelter. Did he ever says that part. Sometimes people coming sometimes dogs that very justified and it's not about their own anxiety. It's about the person dogs sense things about people that other people don't sense. That is so true what they're doing. Try to tell you something you know by the way speaking of his. I don't know for say owner anymore of dogs but whatever. The relationship is between joe biden. One of our colleagues says we mentioned earlier. I think we're talking to chuck todd. That joe biden was scheduled to sign this this historic bill on friday. Cnn is reporting that he will sign it in an hour today. I don't know what they'll go so obviously is going to sign it before his speech tonight at Eight o'clock andrew. It's good thanks. You waited on major champion on my god. You me really really. Was your dog margaret. You would not be making light of this. Let me tell you. I i want. I want them to be back. I don't. I don't think the only thing i could make feel different is if they should be brought back immediately immediately. Yeah the only thing that would make me feel differently is is if they went to a house. It was more pleasant for them. Maybe maybe they're close with one of the kids. I don't know apparently oprah sitting down with actually a really good me on twitter. Okay we're gonna get to the bottom of this. Thank you thank you days in a row like we do other things here. I'm telling you right now naked. No major we're not talking about majoring champ day. Just not doing okay for done. We covered it when they come back. You can announce back. Let's see about that. This story could be evolving. Could be evolving. There may be new. Twist tomorrow involving mitch. Mcconnell who intricate broad join us every week for law and order she's the former suffolk county. Sheriff and secretary public safety. She's now the ceo of send. Thank you very much andrew abroad coming up. Oh my god. I can't wait for this latest film series. Ken burns and lynn. Novick take on the legend of ernest. Hemingway tell us all about it up next. Eighty nine seventy gbh. Boston public radio. Welcome back to boston. Public radio margery. Eagan and jim brown in their latest collaboration filmmakers. Ken burns lynn. Novick take on it. In american literary institution ernest. Hemingway hemingway looms large in our collective conscience. Great writer as he was a wild man. Macho man a misogynist. The big game hunter and a drunk but was his public persona one of his greatest burdens has it subjected as writing to unjust criticism. Making it a challenge. The work transcend the man burns novick excavate all this and so much more than three part film series hemingway anyway on pbs and streams april fifth through april seven. Starting at eight pm check your local pbs listings. You can also catch. Ken burns and lynn novick next tuesday. That's march sixteenth right. Yes at an event sponsored by gbh and the kennedy library to sign up you to pbs dot org slash hemingway events lynn. Ken congratulations in great to talk to you again jim. It's great to be with you. I i going can be a total groupie here for the next twenty minutes because i've been mesmerized from beginning to end by this thing but just just tell us Let's start with you. Spend obviously years Putting these these documentaries together. And i'm just wondering and we can start with you can. Why did you pick hemingway well. We've thinking about it literally for almost forty years. I've found a scrap of paper recently. That in the early mid eighties. That said you know. Do hemingway then do baseball into the so. He's shown up on our radar and lynn began to champion it towards the end of the arts. And we said yes about six and a half years ago and saying yes means going to the deep end diving off and trying to contain as much of the contradictions as possible. The most important thing before you dive is to leave all your preconceptions to leave all the baggage all the conventional wisdom behind. Because you know that's going to be a rearranged and you don't wanna give your audience. Here's what you should know about hemingway. Rather than here's our process of discovery you'll never believe what we learned and that is liberating. I don't even remember what i felt about him. I mean i remember being a kid reading the killers and an old man and the sea and in high school and all of that stuff and i and later reading various novels but the person that worked on this with lynn and our team. Sarah sign is over a senior producer. Jeff ward the writer. We're just it was. We had to be kind of completely clean. Wipe it clean in order to dive in. He is one of the most important writers of the twentieth century. His style is enduring. Transcends gem of that nasty stuff in many ways and yet we were unwilling to give him a pass on any of that nasty stuff and to dig into it and try to come to terms with where it came from and and why it happened and all of that and some surprising things tumbled out. You know the misogyny that you you're used is true if it's being cruel to a woman. But in his literature there are so many pieces in which he actually is able to occupy an endogenous. As an o'brien says in our film or maybe get under a woman's skin in a way that she said is revelatory and sort of strips away that particularly short stories up in michigan and and and hills like white elephants and and yet this is a man possessed by so many different demons trying to outrun them all that it becomes this unbelievably shakespearean tragedy that has to account for the art but also has to account for the person. I can't remember what. I was thinking about forty minutes ago. Much less forty years ago but you know speaking of discovery by the way i read hills like white elephants just last night Speaking of that because margin. We're talking this morning and you know we go into your work both. You're wondering what will learn that. We didn't know. But in in hemingway. There were so many things that we're both convinced we did know that we were dead wrong about whether it's hemingway his father how he treated women and the one that i want to start with if we can for a second. Is the magazine cover. Image lynn of a man's man and who knew the gender fluidity was part of the story. Can you fill in some of those blanks blaxland. Yes thank you for asking that. It's it's such a fascinating dimension of him and like endless saying there's so much below the surface and that that myth is so encrusted it's hard to break through and he didn't want people to break through. That's why he had created this around himself to protect some inner life and sort of vulnerability and it turns out that he was very for all his macho posturing and for all the super hyper masculine things. He loved to do like hunting and fishing. And you know Just boxing and brawling all of that. That's part of him but another part of him was that he was very drawn to intimate relationships. In which the gender roles were reversed the simplest way to put it so he writes in a moveable feast and he alludes earlier to fascination with hair which i think is a representation of gender and he wanted to grow his hair long and his partner. Grower cut her hair short until they matched and he's fascinated with women who don't present as super feminine and playing the roles of the woman in bad and all of this is a lifelong fascination that he alludes to in his work sometimes published a lot unpublished and more of it has come to the fore you know since he died and more of his work has been not declassified. But you know made available all about kins- word my god. I'm sorry no no. no. I think that's exactly right. It's it helps in an age when we're so kind of hyper about people particularly in the past who might appear to be an acronym all of a sudden with this ability in up in michigan or hills like white elephants or the information about this gender fluidity and curiosity that lynn is just described all of a sudden. You can approach hemingway new. And of course. Isn't that what it is isn't isn't classic writing all serving every generation now. It's not to say that he'll fall out of favor or that they'll be a forgotten in this way but i don't think he'll ultimately be forgotten. A lot of it has to do with the fact that the writing is so good it is so spare. Most of what's good about it is what's unsaid like in hills like white elephants jim. You've felt that last night what's not said is air. What's what's the part of the iceberg. That's not shown. And that he's addressing elemental human things. Yes we can go to the headlines of gender fluidity and things like that but he's also talking about how men and women relate. How wars happen. What happens in war. How you beta hook you know. What a bird in flight looks like. He's an enormous observer of the natural world and the human world and so what he what he takes back what he captures and brings to us or what captures him is extraordinary pie to do that. Will i think be forever interesting. Even as we find out new things and reconsider new things and and are stunned as i think i are after all these years of digging. We're talking to. Ken burns and lynn novick about the new documentary. Hemingway you know. I mean when you talk to the macho thing i think most of us knew but the the bull fighting and the big game hunter and the fishermen and all that kind of stuff but one of the things i really loved in your documentary may i used to be. Reporter was third wife. Martha gal horn in the voice was meryl streep i she did. She did that voice. She's yeah up and coming. I think she's gonna go someplace bladder. And we used your. We think she's going to go someplace. I but the fact that he in your in what you learn was so jealous of her and she was one of the great war. Correspondents of all time and in fact beat him out as you point out on the day story where he gets stuck in the boat and she actually made it ashore with a hospital team and how jealousy was and how her career he apparently want women to wait on him and be there in his bed all the time even though martha such much enjoy being in his bed but That that he was so threatened by a woman of talent. I found interesting. Well written everybody of talent. It wasn't just women. It wasn't just martha he. He seems good looking over his shoulder from his earliest age and being concerned with fast and his immortality mutation before you would have thought anyone in his would've worried about that and it gotten more and more successful seemed to worry about it even more and that speaks to a kind of underlying security which of course all that posturing you have to figure you know. is covering up for that but then when it comes to martha she is the most fascinating of all his wives because she's so much her own person and chafes under his kind of control. But you know. When i fall in love he respects and admires her for her career and her ambition and her in her courage in the spanish civil war being out with him on the front lines and really being that war correspondent like he was drawn to that but then ultimately he couldn't deal with it and and that's so sad i love letters or so beautiful and then it just all falls apart in the most horrendous way we can talk about being threatened by other people. You have this incredible Section there about what he was asked to give a blurb for the book from here to eternity and he just tell us about his reaction is first of all. We're a family network here. We are so we can't do. The details leaked can even quote a phrase from it. It is so hard it is the beginning of the time when the madness or whatever it came from the family. History the ptsd from world war one many concussions. He had that probably produced the cte. The alcoholism and the dementia. That comes from that that paranoia. Whatever it was he inherited all of these things. You know. you can't make a diagnosis. It's beginning to overtake him. But it is an an insane extension of what. Lynn was talking about this being so threatened his own hero of his great great great novel. A farewell to arms deserts from world war one but he's intolerant of from here. Eternity hero who also desserts as if he it never had happened in in his his story. And i think what it is is his own world. War book is not going. Well it's not well written. It's real drag for most of it and it's uncharacteristic of hemingway and and i think he is terrified that the world is passing his by but the things that he says about. James jones are are beyond the pale unprintable. We'll be blurred on pbs and we'll beat on on understandably because it is so it's it's really crazy. We're talking to. Ken burns and lynn. Novick the latest. This hemingway it starts april fifth however a margin. I've watched every minute of six hours and trust me. Count the minutes lynn. One of the places where i was so way off it's embarrassing was about hemingway's treatment of and understanding of women one of my favorite observations. In the whole thing is this thing by writer edna about hemingway's androgynous nature in his book. A farewell to arms. Here's o'brien part of a farewell to arms could have been written by a woman. I regard that as a compliment. Hemingway mice regard. It doesn't it. But i don't because is the android in a man or a woman that allows them even if briefly to be able to put themselves inside the skin of the opposite. Gets the boys stuff. The man stuff. He gets the horror of the war when people put that book down there remember in childbirth. Boy who can even think like that spontaneous that was. Did you go into this. Like we did with a different perspective on how he dealt with women both in his writing and his life in which came out with a little bit. I think if i'm fully honest. I think i too was stopped a little bit by the facade of his public persona behavior and knowing you had four wives and all the things we've been talking about and even though i had read most of these works ahead of time i wasn't thinking about it in that context. And having edna help us see his work new among the other great writers that we also benefited from to really go back and reread these tax. And think about okay. It's really critique of toxic masculinity as much as anything from the perspective of a woman insofar as he could go there he knows he's a man he's not pretending that he is he's not censoring the book the female character per se. He doesn't do that i think. He knows his limitations as well. But it gives us insight from a woman's perspective of what it's like when a man is bullying you when you managed take advantage of you when a man is not treating you right or you know speaking down to you. Just he understands very very well and you sense that sensitivity in such a profound way edna. I mean why can't say better than her in by the way for the fourth time to mention it. Maybe because it's so fresh my mind. If you don't buy that read hills like white elephants like we've i think you'll ever different view when when watching this and talking to margarite margarite is not stop talking about this by the way like any missile. We're not on the air just so you do know which i think is pretty good. Sign is when we watch the two of you get so close to a figure like this from being all his houses through reading and touching all these letters which is so intimate and great. Starting with you can't. Do you feel when you finished a project like this that you know having. I don't mean know everything about him. I mean like you know like i know ernest hemingway. Do you know what i mean. I do indeed. And i think jim that all biography which is the constituent building block mostly of everything. We also do big big topic. Things is failure because if you think about the people that are closest to you in your life. They remain inscrutable. So how is it that you could. We could reach back a century and try to make someone so there is always a sense of failure in a good way right. We're obligated to try and so yes. There's there's what there is is that you see is lynn. Just described it. He comes off as that person who is unaware. But when you read a farewell to arms or in michigan or hills like white elephants or or almost anything you see how aware he is. Even of his own foibles so his great gift to us is not the complexity and the contradictions and the big larger than life boldfaced junk. It's his ability. See that and understand it. And so what develops over. Time is compassion. You do not you hold his feet to the fire for these many many failings you chart with an unblinking. I some of the more difficult things like the letter about from here to eternity other things and you revel in the extraordinary art it's created and you don't try to average it out you just say i can at the end of the day. Have a great deal of compassion linen. I made a film and you know a thousand years ago on right. And i love the film. It's a really good film. I think and yet i don't like right. And he had disagreeable aspects if frank lloyd wright came up and said hey wanna be or hey wanna get in the car and travel across. The country and hemingway did the same thing. It's hemingway one hundred out of one hundred times right. I mean you want despite all of this stuff. I think you feel like somewhere. There's a crack where the light gets in and it with him. You know the gifts. They don't outweigh anything. This is not you can't. This is not about scales. This is just about how you have compassion for an incredibly complicated person. It'd be great for the for the fact that it is so outside that we can see these things writ so large because they're ridden us as well only a little bit subtler and a little bit smaller. And that's the great gift of literature at wakes us up to our own possibilities to our own selves and i would suggest in hemingway's writings to our own failings. We're talking to lynn. Novick and ken burns the new documentary. Hemingway airs on. Pbs and streams april fifth through april seventh. You mentioned the letters and Maybe we can juxtapose here. The the cruelty of first of all people probably know that his his father committed suicide. And i didn't know about this incredible cruelty. I thought of his mother toward him in the career when she wrote him a letter basically saying he was disgraced to the family. And then you interview. These hemingway's own son patrick. We're going to play some sound of this about Hemingway really being pretty good. Father juxtapose the cruelty he received from his own mother. Here's patrick hemingway speaking about his relationship to his father as a boy. He didn't work all day after lunch. He enjoyed himself and so he was a strange person in the sense that he was inaccessible in the first half of the day over accessible but i really enjoyed the fact that he was always game for something in the afternoon and that we were included. Unlike some artists that i've heard about my dad was a very good father. Lynn you point out. He never reconciled with his mother even though he supported her didn't go to her funeral etc but juxtapose that his relationship with his mother and then his relationship with his own three sons. I mean his mother is a very important figure in his life and he was very tough on her and she was tough on him but they definitely had a lot of characteristics in common love of the arts grandiosity a lot of things but he was very bitter towards her and resentful. That didn't appreciate his are and that he felt that she had driven his father to suicide. Which is a very interesting conversation that we can of sidebar. For the moment but hemingway's family was extremely important to him. He was a dedicated father who was also hard a tough father. He had very high expectations for his kids. I think it's very hard to go up in the shadow of hemingway and you know find your own identity and your own place in the world and he not sure in the totality of his children's lives that they were all successful in that because of that shadow but they loved each other and there's enormous Joy they took and shared experiences. The kind of things the hemingway's father actually had shown him love of nature hunting and fishing being out in the world. He brought his own children along in that same way and and those are some of patrick most cherished memories of his father. So it's complicated like everything else to do way and patrick. Patrick migrate away from his dad. To and find it intolerable. And so there's both there's both the love of the doting afternoon. Dad who will do anything when most ads are saying not right now. I'm working and then later on a kind of impossible. Father whose beset by all of the demons that we've described that has to force patrick to to exit to get out of harm's way too little the family also. I mean. they didn't really understand how ill he was at the end. So patrick he knew his father was very unwell for all the reasons can spoke about earlier and they separated and he never saw him again after a series of events that happened in the mid fifty. But he didn't know how sick. Hemingway was and so that has to do with the taboo of mental illness at the time and now and the lack of real recognition treatment that he could have received which is also get another element. Tragedy and relevance for. Today i would say. Will you document that very well. The end of his life with the paranoia. The fbi was after him. The visits to the mayoclinic allegedly for a blood pressure problems but really for mental health. Tell us about that ken. Well i think that's it. This is a period. In which i think for him particularly but i think for the era. The stigma of mental illness was much much greater than it is now and now we're struggling to do this and we want to make sure that people who are watching the film understand that this is not a way out That there is help in many different directions but There's a lot of denial going on within the construct of the family particularly with his wife. Mary and a lot of not knowing as lynn said on the path. Part of patrick end and other siblings. And so yeah. He's he's gonna not go to where he needs to go which is a psychiatric institution. He's gonna go to the famous mayoclinic to get you know the the checkup. And and in fact not going to be treated for whatever it was not through any sort of malfeasance on their part but just because how difficult it is to treat somebody like this at presenting an with new forms of of various diseases that we were only beginning to get an inkling up and so the tragedy of the demons is compounded than by the inability to figure out how to look for the lifelines. That are there or could be there. And and that to me just magnifies it all your in the last minute. We have a we talk about you to for a second rather than hemingway. I think we know that. Bernie taupin writes the lyrics and elton. John writes the music. You guys. i'm serious. How do you work. What do you do. What's the division a response. How do you work together. I don't mean like how do you work together. I mean how do you work together. I mean i think it's a collaboration at a very deep and profound level of trying to figure out how to solve all the problems that filmmaking presents. A lot of that happens in the room where we're going with editors and our producers thereabouts senator. Jeff ward kind of shape a story because sarah an i will go out and collect an enormous amount of material. Along with our producers interviews archival material jeff ward writes in incredible script of. What are the half times too long. And that's great though know we have to basically as kennedy said subtract and in that process of subtraction is where are like most intense collaborations comes as really just figuring out. What is the story. And how are we gonna tell it. And that involves a million decisions from start to finish So it can be very f- oregon wonderful experience when we're sort of sharing ideas and some of them are good and some of them are bad but you have to try out to see what works and to recognize when things do and don't work and then to come up with new solutions to those problems will be worked here big time. I know i speak for the two of us. And i'm sure everybody else in a couple of weeks. Congratulations you to and really. Thanks so much for your time that we appreciate. Jim thank you thank. You is great to talk to you both. Ken burns and lynn. Lynn novick three part film series. Hemingway airs on pbs streams april fifth april seventh. Starting at eight o'clock check your local bs listings. You can also catch. Ken burns and lynn novick. Next tuesday march sixteenth and an event sponsored by gbh in the kennedy library to sign up for that could appear bs dot org slash hemingway events. Okay coming up. You're look at the return to the classroom with former education. Secretary paul rebel. Keep your down. Eighty nine seven hundred baltimore. The radio. welcome back to boston. Public radio jim brady and marjorie and i have to correct a couple of errors i made about eligibility for vaccine's in massachusetts thank local cantor for tweeting me in correcting me. One i said the denison hi Were still not eligible. Of course they were in phase one and kanter also. I'm not sure she's right about this. She's right about the facts. She said that. I also said that someone who has only one health condition. Not i don't know what. The singular of co morbidity is is not eligible to the final group. I meant to say and i may have said incorrectly. They're not eligible until after essential employees there at the bottom of phase two so thank her for the corrections and my apologies to you. Because that's pretty important stuff in any case joining us line. Talk about all the ways. Krona viruses is putting a huge strain or education infrastructure. And if the burden it's placed on what. The teachers students and parents could be coming to an end. Schools across state returned in person. Learning these hopefully in april is paul. Rebel paul's the former secretary of education in the state professor at harvard. University's graduate school of education. We also runs the education redesigned lab. His latest book co author with lane weiss's broader baller. Better how schools and communities help students overcome the disadvantages of poverty. Hello paul rebel. Jimmy mercury and you taught you paul so starts with his with kids Getting back to school jeff rally. Who is the education commissioner here in the state on friday. He won his effort to get kids back into the classroom. Full time Kids is going to be in person instruction five days a week. Beginning april fifth for kids. Pre-k kindergarten through grade five middle schools. Kids will follow sometime after that. We don't know yet. I guess if high schools will be forced to reopen before the school this courses overriding local authority was was the vote. Correct is is jeff riley correct as well. I think he is. I certainly would have voted in that direction. Had i've been a member of the board at the time i think that All the signs are positive pointing in positive directions. Now i mean the the rate of vaccination just as we see in the case of for example ramping up to the point where you know by april april. It seems that virtually every teacher who needs to get a vaccine to get back in. You'll be able to have that opportunity to do that Furthermore we know a lot more than we did six months ago even about the effect of spacing testing how to do that economically The social distancing. The air quality That so many of our school systems have been working on it. We've got a lot of data that show. We can do this safely. And so i think they're in the right place to call it back. We know that not. All parents are ready to send their children back. I mean people have been traumatized and people are nervous about that. Not all teachers are ready to come back. you know. so there's some resistance to this change but i don't think we can Simply go to the lowest common denominator here in wait for the perfect situation before we call school back and i'm proud that the commonwealth isn't just i think the easiest course of action here would be sort of You know right off the rest of the school year and cruise to the finish line. June and said we'll start over in september and that's a substantial chunk of real estate between april and june that the students really need to get back and get started. And i thought the commissioner awesome made it very compelling case on the mental health issues. I mean this is one of the driving Concerns in the state in addition to the federal government pushing president biden pushing governor pushing But the mental health issues and the rate of mental health problems. That are springing up in the incapacity of our states mental health system to handle all. These problems is one more reason to get students back together in school. Over with all the preventative and diagnostic advantages. Schools present a on mental health issues. So i think it's high time and and i'm very hopeful about. You just said it would be horrible if the decision was to just the right off the semester and go from june to september and that made me nervous because you jumped over a couple of months right there in the middle and i have two thoughts. Two questions. One is serious planning being made. We've talked about learning loss before using the summer and to since we don't have a traditional january to june i don't know if they're called semesters semesters why don't we have in april to august semester. Give kids a week off and then come back in september for the next semester. Well it's a great suggestion. Our our sector is not known so that kind of flexibility And so i'm not sure it would be very easy to negotiate the agreements. You'd have to negotiate in order to do that But it makes all kinds of sense. I mean i think we as i've said many times before i think summer august entitlement now it ought to really be part of our system. We ought to have a third semester fifth quarter. Whatever you wanna call it. And and and students really need it in an ordinary year without dependent now with the pandemic. you know. We've got kids who we know have slipped way behind and need much more time and much more attention from adults much more instruction and then obvious place to go with summer because it's wide open and at the same time. A lot of our school districts particularly those serving low income eric's which are about to receive and have been receiving some money from the cares act and now with this new bill coming down the pike. So they'll have resources to do it. And i you know. It's a highly decentralized approach here But i hope that. And i hear i hear signs in certain districts that you know planning is going on to take full advantage of that and incidentally not just for student enrichment of but also for teachers teachers need the help and support necessary to get them up to speed in terms of using the kinds of new tools that have been introduced into the education sector of the tools of technology and software. That goes along with that as well as rethinking how they're going to interact with students when they come back and how they going to respond to the sort of deep personal needs that students are bringing in the need to restore relationships. You know that timidity that a lot of students are suffering from having been sort of closeted at home for a year year and a half really by the time we get to the fall. So there's a lot to be done. We've got resources we've got time. I hope that the various constituents in the education sector can find a way to make common purpose here and take full advantage of the summer. Know one of the things we've heard cependant pandemic began was about a lack of planning parents not knowing teachers not knowing What's going what's going to happen finding out things last minute. It would seem as though in march. I mean we. We knew you know way back when that kids are going to be out for a big chunk more. I'm surprised there isn't planning already. Wh what's the hold up. Well i mean. This march is quite different than last march last night. I submit that we didn't really know what was going to happen. We've been we noticed that. Certainly december that things were. Yeah no i. I agree i i. I think there's You know you're absolutely spot on. I mean District's have got to have multiple plans. It's not an easy job being a school administrator or a school policymaker a local school board. It's a really tough job right now because no matter what you choose to do you're going to be second guessed and you're going to have you know vocal opponents who think you're moving in the wrong direction i you're also operating under very changing conditions the rates of illness or changing the advice. That's coming from a certain upper levels on certain topics is is shifting the mandates or shifting so people are very caught up in the president understandably because we're still in sort of a quasi emergency response mode at the local district level and that sometimes gets in the way of taking a step back and thinking longer term about what we're gonna do. You know three months from now. Six months from now so forth. So i'm not. I'm not making excuses. But i'm rather explaining why it isn't as visible or high priority because it demands that the present are so urgent and so rapidly changing. I mean districts are really sort of almost overwhelmed now by these new mandates to come back much. I applaud them as i did. My earlier comments are there are a lot of complexities associated with doing this particularly. If you haven't been in this modality up till now. So a lot of the districts are trying to you know it involves everything from changing bussing routes transportation routes trying to match up the number of teachers that you'll have coming in with the number of students that you're likely to have coming in doing surveys of parents which is a mandate in part of this to to find out what parents are inclined to do and i. It's a very complicated situation there in at the moment so i think one of the things that the state can help with and some of this new funding can help with this is to buy the additional time and help that's needed for people to do longer term planning because it's it's very difficult in this emergency response mode to to take a breath and step up on the balcony and take a look at the future and makes them plan g. e. wonder whether we just don't run things the right way in general that kind of like turning around the titanic any iceberg enterprise. He the bureaucracy has gotten so big. And there's so many rules that here. We are on the face of this emergency meeting how long we've been talking about getting the correct ventilation in these classrooms and you couldn't figure out why it was taking months and months and months to come up with a plan for that that we that the the way we operate schools is just not the idea way. I mean that's a big question. I know been cons. Their their economies of scale to have large school systems. And on the other hand you know as we see a crisis like this. It's been a smaller school systems or the individualized schools whether they're independent schools charter schools or parochial school system. Know the small has been generally speaking. I'm generalizing your. It's not fair but A general observations the smaller institutions have been able to be more nimble and responsive to current circumstances than the larger ones because the degree of complexity for example in running the boston public schools can be overwhelming. I mean you just look at the transportation and school choice algorithm and plan the way that works out in every time you make a change apt tinker with that and that involves all kinds of complexity multiple unions all kinds of bus routing and negotiationms. That need to go into that. And then You know and teacher assignments and and complex and powerful teachers. Union that you're working with it makes it more challenging to do it now. At the same time you know there's a richness and diversity and and increase capacity that you have on a larger school system so we got to strike the right balance we just. I think this crisis has proved that You know we're we're just overly sorta sclerotic and bureaucratized in our larger system. So the point. We don't have the necessary flexibility to respond to a crisis and this isn't just true in crisis situations it's also true in the day to day normal quote unquote existence of school systems. So speaking of. I'm sorry mark i'm just going to say how big announcement on on friday was postponed. The cast tests. I guess they're they originally going to start earlier now. They're going to be postponed Back to may and june in some cases and then some of the unions are argue that they should not be done at all this year. So where you come down. The cast testing for this spring. Well it's just another chapter in the eternal testing battle that has gone on ever since the introduction of of accountability in the nineteen ninety-three reform. I mean advocates are Yeah well my kids still blame me for that. That's great but i was only part of a big team. But in any event Anti-testing advocates have been hoping that the pandemic a beginning of the end for standardized testing period. Not just for this year but forever. I mean there are on record as opposing Any form of standardized testing and they bring nervous about any form of what town ability whatsoever. I think it's an equity strategy. That's about this from the beginning was why it was an important part of the nineteen ninety-three act. Is you know you can't make progress in terms of getting where you wanna go with children unless you measure how far. They've come and how far they need to go and what kind of health and need to get there. So it's it's basically to me a civil rights issue if we just say. Hey let's just leave it up to you know well intentioned schools schools will figure out how to do it for the kids will. That's what we had before right and we had gross inequities in the system that affected black and brown were children kids with disabilities and english language learners more than anybody else and they'd unquestionably be the losers if we eliminated m. cast test so it's not to say that everything that's happened with respect to 'em cast is good for example you know what the commissioners proposed is not doing any grading of schools or having any sort of accountability consequences attached to this administration. They're also the department is committed along while we go to making the tests shorter and easier to administer and things of that nature so we can do better with 'em i'm not saying it's perfect by any means but the idea that we step back and say well don't measure at a at a time of profound learning and huge and growing differences between kids. It'd be like a doctor saying well. you know. i'm not gonna do any medical tests when you come into the office. Just go ahead and imagine what treatments you need an anti standardized test guy and i totally agree with you in this instance. I think it's got to happen. You know paul you wrote a my no you know this. You wrote a piece with the former national secretary of education. John king junior not our john king. But barack obama's john king right. I learned if you made some recommendations we've talked about children's cabinets before with you. I think you mentioned last time you were here one time about every kid having an adult navigator and if we have time i'd love to talk about that but what most intrigued me amongst your recommendations with king was this Creation of this national tutoring core would assume everybody would agree the flesh it out a little bit for us and is it a pipe dream. Or what's the deal. no. I think there's some decent possibilities on this i i you know i've been inspired by you. Know programs like city year and americorps members who come in and work in the schools and connect schools and families very effectively in this crisis can help students with technology that They they in their families have had to learn how to use and find the hot spots and set up some Pandemic pause and things of that nature. We need extra help. We need the connective tissue between the school system to families and the children and And what better source than than young people. There are so many young people of You know high school graduates in college graduates. Who are suffering from Underemployment these days. Who wanna do something for the civic good And there is a bill in congress now You know as we pointed out in the article that senators chris coons of delaware and Roger weicker republican mississippi have put together to create a substantial. Don't tutoring core to help with this kind of emergency. We've had now with respect to learning loss. I mean learning losses is the number one issue. That's on the minds of most education leaders right now is the and it's so widely differential. I mean some kids have done fine. Thank you very much. i mean. They're proceeding at about the level. They were at. These tend to be kids from affluent backgrounds who've had a lot of You know support and resiliency factors injected into their lives and other kids are slipping behind. And we're going to have to do extra we're going to have to do more than we've contracted with teachers to do for these kids and so we need more hands on deck and This is a great way of doing it at a relatively modest caused. And it sort of i think elevates the 'cause you know making a civic contribution for young people in our society which i think getting the concept national services a great idea anyway so i hope it will move forward. I'm told that has some reasonably good products. But we'll say by the way if people wanna read this piece by the former national secretary of education. The former massachusetts secretary paul It's called this. Could be the moment to help the poorest among us our nation's children's in education week and you can search for it and it's worth rid pauley only have a little bit more than a minute left. But i'm wondering who i if it's not a big money thing who would oppose this is be like a great idea. Unions actually might be an issue. Are there. I was in city. You're in boston public schools. And i don't know the answer to this. Our unions okay with with supplemental nonunion young people providing assistance number one. I don't know i'm with I don't know much about the opposition to this bill. I don't even heard. I haven't heard in a union voices raised against it. And i think if there're pretty clearly defined lanes so they're not taking up on jobs which i don't believe is the intention of this. I think the intention of this is to be complementary to To assist teachers in reaching particular teacher is going to be faced with kids coming into fourth grade. You know from third grade. Some of whom are way behind there maybe level and others who are at sixth grade level and to try and teach all those children simultaneously. Just not gonna work. You're going to need help. So i think teachers would be inclined to embrace. This is just the kind of support they need to go be. I think it'd be a wonderful thing because having a lot of kids need the help. I mean boy trying to to my kids in math. I didn't go very well. I couldn't really so you should not join monaco or morning. Yeah we get beyond second grade math. I was out of my league. Paul is pretty pathetic but thank you very much. Talk to you joining us. Paul rebel joins us regularly. He's the former state secretary of education a professor at harvard. University's graduate school of education where he also runs education redesign lab. His latest book co authored with elaine wise is broader boulder better how schools and communities help students overcome the disadvantages of poverty. Once again the peace he co wrote with john king junior is called This could be the moment to help the poorest among us our nation's children a great piece is again. Paul rebel up next czech writer. Andy nocco joins us to talk about a bunch of things including whether it's time to dumb down your smartwatch and do not go next on eighty nine seven. Gbh possible the gradient. Welcome back in boston. Public radio jim rowdy margery eagan join us go over the latest headlines at the intersection of tech policy and commerce is andy not going as a tech writer and blogger. You can find his work at a not go dot com and you can follow him at. I h nato ko and do not go good afternoon. Hey hey hey great. Utah engine nocco. So apparently a t mobile customer better get their privacy settings updated before april twenty six because he mobile says they're not going to sell customers personal information. Like your names and your phone numbers to advertisers but only harmless anonymous data. That will help target the so. What do you think about this. T mobile plan anytime one of your data companies as a promises you that. Oh well the data. We're going to be selling to to fell. Ads is harmless anonymous. I want you to imagine. Air quotes like four sets of air quotes around that raise. Yes oh they're changing their policy settings for all for affecting all customers so that they can just like. At and t. Two just like verizon does start to like package and so information to target ads now. It is true that they're not gonna so antioch goes name and address phone number. And hey here's here's where he was. And here's the site that he's visiting using his t. Mobile account but the problem is that It's it's no. It's no secret that any marketing company can take this anonymous source. Big data combined it with other data. They have access to and figure out exactly who. I am and lincoln real name to all this sort of stuff. So it's really really important that you go into your user privacy settings account and look for look for the little button says no please do not do this 'cause everybody gets opted into this automatically unless they opt out and it doesn't start to trigger until april twenty six but that is good in from that is good advice for everybody eighteen. And you're probably already involved in this sort of advertising to begin with and my policy is you. Just don't give away that sort of stuff for free you're paying these people for service you know if unless they're cutting you in on some of the proceeds then no they. Don't get that stuff free almost every time. We discuss a topic like this. I ask you the same stupid question and so let me repeat the same stupid question. Unlike the big fixes to the tech dominance of real people. This is a little tiny thing. Why doesn't congress mandate that. The default is that they can't use your data and if you choose to opt in reverse of what is to allow them to use your data. You can do that. They can try to persuade you. That can do ads. They can do whatever they want. But the default is no use of your data. Why doesn't congress just do that like tomorrow. This simple simple reason is lobbying. There's just there's no way that that the congress would possibly Fight for that kind of a right. When there's so much money being put into fighting against it has to become a national mandate and that sort of thing that were creeping up on especially as we're entering into a period of more and more regulation upon tech companies but it's not gonna happen without a national mandate now to If i have to play if i have to cover both sides of the argument there's also the if the if this law were to be put into place we would have to define what constitutes personal information and what constitutes like commercial use of it because there's data that they actually really have to have access to in order to maintain your account in order to make sure that they're giving you service when you go from one zone to another a lot of that stuff gets a little bit tricky if you have a blanket statement that says that all the day of the generated by your phone belongs to you and cannot be sold unless he was explicitly. Say was but yeah. You're absolutely right and we have to start demanding better from these companies. Andy since i met you through the radio here i have been craving the day when we could talk about. Non fungible tokens. I've said the marguerite can we discuss. Non fungible tokens with andy this week and she says no not this week. She finally said this week. We can. I want you to explain this whole notion about digital fine art and i have to say that there are many things. I can't wrap my mind around. This is near the top of the list. So take it away okay. It's actually very very simple at all about when you're when you're trying to sell something that's collectible whether it's fine art whether it's baseball cards whether it's like a historic letter from one person to another from a couple years ago there has to be scarcity and demand and to this date that's been hard to do with things that are digital be it like a piece of digital art or song or a digital collectible because it's a it's a j. peg can simply copy it everywhere there's no rarity so there's not gonna be bragging rights thing i own the one thing so This is a tech. This is a a combination of technology that kind of creates the scarcity and creates the demand. let me let me let me illustrate how big a thing this is becoming because just this morning there. christie's set a new auction record for the third highest auction price for piece of art by a living artist behind. Only jeffrey koons. David hockney this morning. A j. peg sold for sixty nine million dollars. As a non fungible token it's a digital collage by called himself a people. And it's again it's the only. The only thing makes this different from salvador. Mundi is that it's only. They're only have to be one of the things. You can't have multiple copies of it. So what nonfunctional tokens Sort of do is if creates a sort of a digital contract digital record the digital A digital laws of the transaction on the theory and blockchain and this is the same sort of technology that that powers cryptocurrency. So that You can you can always track here. Is this one. discreet item. Here is who owns it. Here is like how much it was sold for in theory. It's also a platform you can control your the rules for selling it or buying it. So by christie's generating one of these. Non fungible tokens again just like you're generating crypto currency and adding it to the ethereal blockchain. What they're doing is they're planting a flag that is that can't be changed. Can't be modified can't be tampered with that defines that this person who bought this piece of artwork for sixty sixty nine million dollars is the owner of this physical as it were artwork. They don't own the copyright two. Don't own the trademark. The can't do t shirts again. Do a movie based on it but in terms of again that copy of that original salvador mundi. You're hanging on a wall somewhere. You are the one owner of it. And because you are registered via this non fungible token or nf t that means that you can sell it you can hold onto it or you can simply have bragging rights to it okay. So i'm gonna hazard to ask one more question. Which i'm sure i'll regret but i will try. And by the way we see an example as the people in reading about jack dorsey a first tweet from six which was quote just setting up. My twitter is apparently self two and a half million dollars. If you tweet if you have a fine piece of hard art for example a we know the original thing that is of great value and then they make a million or zillions of copies. This is the reverse which is what i don't really get. Everybody had access to jack. Dorsey i tweet for example or anything else. You mentioned a minute ago. Technologically create uniqueness. After the fact and to see what i'm saying and so i don't know i'm right about that obviously right. Don't understand it but no you've got it absolutely. It makes no. It makes no rational sense the same way that it makes no sense that a painting can be worth four hundred and fifty million dollars. It's just a mutual agreement of lots of people with money. Who want to be able to say that. I learned of this piece. I have this physical object. And so that's that's why. Although nfc technology has been around for a few years past few years now it was actually created as sort of an experiment to see. Can you create scarcity and demand for For for digital creations. We still don't know whether this is An exciting new way for artists who operate in the digital domain who are legitimate artists and creating things that really will never having a physical presence. Like imagine of a three d. sculpture that you can only see when you've got When you've got the virtual reality goggles on that will never be a physical thing but someone is gonna want to say that. Hey i and also someone's going to want to want to support the artist by making sure that hey you're you're you're artwork is selling one hundred thousand dollars each. You could actually support yourself doing this. Three dimensional art. So is it that or is it. You know pogs is it beanie babies a couple of years from now. Is this j. peg that sold for nine million dollars just going to be a a piece of trivia is one of the reasons why did go for sixty nine million dollars is that this is the first time a legitimate respectable auction house auctioned. He's this way so it does have some historic value in and of itself. But we don't know what any of this is going to be worth a year or two. That's andy nocco. talking about. Non fungible tokens so by the way we're recording is going to be released on. Fungible bidding starts at eight thousand dollars. Yeah that'll be a big market for that. My friend so so india not go last. I've read about these massive hacks going after military people are industries are trying to get some inside dope on something defense contractors. Whatever when you were talking about this before the story about that. Hundreds of thousands of email service worldwide worldwide and many in the united states have been hacked was supposedly by this chinese hacking group. We know what they're doing here because if the talk was described as indiscriminate so why was it just to show that can do it or what is it. No it's this is this is the problem. It is a huge huge hack of affecting hundreds of thousands of of microsoft email servers worldwide including thousands in the united states. There there's very little that we know for sure microsoft and other people who've been at this forensically have tracked it down to a chinese state sponsored hacking group but what was the purpose of this unknown They found a unpacked problem in the microsoft exchange mail server. So there's a possibility they said that while this is an incredibly valuable hack that probably microsoft is going to discover and close any day. now we'd better attack as much as many servers as possible for it gets closed and we can't use it again remember. It's not if it's rarely a case where they want to actually The what they're after with this one first action is to grab email grab contacts and and names. It has actually if they have access to the server they can install back doors and moshe software and future ransomware code. So that any point in the future if they want to pull down the server if they want your Your hospital your research group your school system To get x to be able to get access to all of its records gets what you're being held to ransom for. Perhaps dollars or sometime in the future. They know that if they there is a person or company of interest operating on something that there's data that their bosses really real organizations boston's really want to have and they know how to get back into their very very easily because again they installed this back door right. Now this is. This is only been ongoing since january In of the discovery and the propagation and they aren't really even the even the department of homeland security the organizations that pursue that are responsible for cybersecurity. Say that they don't know exactly what the point was of this yet. The they're just at this point trying to make sure that every single organization government and next extra government that's running a microsoft exchange server immediately apply the patch and then assumed that this this server has been compromised. And do what you have to do to make sure that there is no malicious code there That's where we are right now but there's going to be response to this because this is this is the The national defense national security policy change of the twenty twenty twenty. Twenty one to start taking these much more seriously than any administration ever has before. Well you know. Also a lot of experts are saying. Today it's an email hack. Tomorrow's counterfeiting of non fungible tokyo. If you don't stop it now the we're talking to andy nocco our tech guy you know. There's some things i feel like. I don't really need to know that. Much about non. Fungible tokens is one of them. Because i don't think i really be you. Might you might know. Jim not sure it's a word. It's a very very great word. We had a discussion a couple of days ago. On one of my podcasts. With the people. I do it with and someone's asking what's should we call it Neft neft and i said we should call because it needs for ever meet needs to rhyme with the word gripped for sure so a a couple of minutes left. But i'm very happy that you have you. Were apparently you were having trouble keeping your smart. Watch on your wrist now. You found a much less expensive substitute that you really fond of. Yeah yeah and i and the message here. I sometimes have problems Following my own advice where. I am attracted to the apple watch and i own an apple. Watch 'cause i write about this stuff. So i have the i have really really nice. Expensive wants to try out. But i've never been able to keep one on my wrist every single day and usually it's because all of these fancy word computer is only lasts for about a day on battery right And so i i. i'm in. I'm trying to envision a day when it's post cove and can take walks every single day. And i can't just like sleep three hours a night and then take a four hour nap. I've wanted to get this this thing. This this fitness stuff on my wrist again. So i took another. Look at fitness trackers. You know the the just the simple little bands that don't run a million different apps and don't have a colour screen and it turns out that the modern ones actually do everything that i want. A modern fitness tracker do twenty four seven heart rate monitoring blood oxygen saturation sleep tracking which is really important for me. Gps tapped to pay customize. Your your watch basis And the thing is because they're not supercomputers on your wrist. They actually lasted entire week. Without charging has always been my. He'll and so. I bought this. It's called a the latest version of fitbit charge which is just a narrow band. Very nice. Black and white screen charged. You can pick it up for about one. Hundred thirty dollars are pretty much our. They often go down twenty or less but i but the the big thing is i bought it in january and it is rarely off my risk since including wearing it overnight so again it can keep track of my sleep so i can figure out. Yes you did. In fact get the six hours of sleep last night. It was getting to the point where i could not remember was it. Did i sleep ten hours last night or was that like three hours that back to sleep to work three hours. I mean really. I need to see that and and steps. I really do need to that number. That reminds me by the way. The because all that incidental walking doesn't happen anymore. If like you have to remind myself that. No you've only been like walking three or four hundred steps around the house. It's time to go out and get your five thousand. Get your ten thousand. Remind yourself that it's time to get on the bike again. And this and the fitness tracker of Twenty twenty twenty twenty one pedigree can do all that stuff used to be kind of exclusive to the more expensive ones but like i said figure out what you absolutely need a device to do pick up suitable for purpose. Don't try to talk yourself into thinking that will just because The the apple watch has the great pixar animated watch faces. That doesn't mean that it's probably better than something that cost a third as much that you're actually going to use. I don't even need that. Because i've already counted seventeen steps to the couch. Fourteen more to the kitchen twenty-seven in the bedroom and that's sort of that's my day. Andy nocco is always a pleasure. Thanks much time antioch. Nocco joins us regularly. He's a tech writer and blogger. You can find his work at a not go dot com and paul him at the nocco. I h as in harvey and is nancy. at k. o. Coming up rope you'll is asking you. How many other risks are you willing to take as our post covid society from not post caveat yet but are soon to be i hope. Post covert society. Opens up listened to any nine seven. Gbh boston public radio. Welcome back to boston. Public radio jim brady and marjorie in society return to normal and we know we're not there yet but as we begin to return to normal. How many more perceived risks are you willing to take. Can you see yourself cramming into a car on the red line. This is even vaccinated. We're talking about crowding bar your drink order singing at a church about plunging it into a bowl of guacamole at a super bowl party have a riding an elevator. Full of people are being in a human sandwich on a domestic flight. The numbers eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seventy link put another way. Are you okay. Will you be okay with taking these perceived risks. Have you now been conditioned on the other hand to avoid people in crowds and that's going to be hard habit to break the numbers. Eight seven seven three zero one eighty nine seven. I started thinking a lot in the last few days. Maybe because what we've done on the air about the transitional period everything i've read. We talked about that great piece by ellen cushing yesterday in the atlantic. I read another piece in the washington post this morning. Your intellect i think is going to be overtaken by the habits. You've developed a in the last twelve months and i don't think it's so easy you know people may be listening to me and say well of course i'm vaccinated. I'm going to be fine getting on the red line or sitting in a bar. You'll always talk about going back to a bar and having a drink. I'm not sure that's the case. I guess what. I'm trying to say. Is i think we're going to continue to be much more risk averse even when we're intellectually convinced that we're safe than we were before this pandemic don't you think or do you think i think it depends a lot. They quote this woman in the story. She's from roslindale. She just had lung surgery. And she saying you know she. She's is very very nervous understandably because often affects your lungs. Most of the time affects your lungs. But i think you're vaccinated person and you're young or you are not someone that's got. You're lucky you don't have any more. I think that's going to be the determinant. Because you're the guarantee. Well ninety five percents so i suppose could be that small percent but the but the beauty. The vaccines is that you are not going to get very. You may get it but you won't get very sick and probably not going to be hospitalized. You're certainly not gonna die one those of people though there. It's totally understandable. I'm talking about the rest of us that aren't in that situation. We get vaccinated. Were not for other reasons. It particularly great risk. I'm just saying it's going to be hard to break the risk averse habits that we've developed for the last twelve months you don't think so you think it's only i think if you are young and you don't have co morbidity or even if you're fifty or sixteen you don't have commodities that high now do you want to all be sharing the same guacamole dip it a super bowl party as you just said maybe not. Maybe you get a little. You know skeptical about that goes in. We used to do that all the time to party. Average got their potato chip in the dip which got on the green line. That goes right by your house. Once you're fully vaccine would you get on the green line of his back car. I wouldn't maybe really paccar. I be nervous but a you know full car. That wasn't packed. i don't think so. Okay so it'd be breathing down. Somebody's neck usually in the green line. But it can be recently. And i think a lot of people know situations north going have masks seven seven three zero one eighty nine seven. I hope i'm going to be more like marjorie. I worry that. I'm going to be a not like that. I'm worried that i'm gonna take the habits. I've developed into post pandemic of more than the science would you. Are you know as we know you have the award for the most use of mri in the last fifteen years thing that is true. Say you may be a little bit of a nervous. Nellie when it comes to health issues i'm not. I'm not a hypochondriac. I'm careful there is a difference between those kind of things. Eight seven seven three zero one. Eight nine seventy. If you thought about this ordinary typical situations that had no problem with before you get vaccinated. You get double vaccinated. If you're a pfizer maderna's single vaccinated. If you're a jay. Jay johnson and johnson. Are you going to be able to return to normal or do you think you're still going to continue some of your risk averse behaviour. I think i will. And i wish. I wouldn't and marjorie apparently is a little bolder. At least believe she will be bolder risky willing to tolerate. I guess that's what it comes down to. Some people are risk averse and some people We're gonna look at the gym. So you're going to look at the greenlawn you're gonna be standing out there on beacon street and saying let me just see their seventy one people. If it's under sixty nine mean you know if you need like japan where they had the pushers ever seen video those people. Yeah they ran right. Well they stand outside the subway system there. I don't know what it's called. Shove you in so make sure. Every person is in there like over their shoulders crush together and people breathing down the neck. I i don't think that. But like i said before i think for a long time people. I can wear masks. I would wear masks in crowded situations. I wear masks on an airplane. If i were gonna take one. Which if we're gonna take one. Which is a big if kevin in brooklyn your first on boston. Public radio welcome. Hi be your friends. How are you good. Fine thank you good. I'm calling because it's honey. I am fortunate enough to to have gotten the pfizer vaccine of both doses. Odd because i do work with clinicians that work with kids that have gone through trauma. Which is every kid these days And and i'm fortunate enough that i'm gonna be traveling with them to do some training and work with kids. Also teach an improv cory. Curry college one. Jesus this is our kevin. Hi kevin. i'm so sorry i don't get. It always takes me a few seconds through. Were we have a long relationship. Urban improv and vanden boston and all that wonderful kinds of kevin's a wonderful sell. Go ahead kevin. I no as mentioned yesterday. We all kobe brain. Don't we do And so i. I was lucky enough to fall into teaching an improv course occur. Were they test the faculty and the students weekly and there's been great and they take. Oh seriously but it still eat. Whether i'm tested every week and it comes up negative and i've been doubly back down very fortunate that it's still unnerving just to and i'm i'm double mask wherever i go and i think about like you're saying i don't know how i'm going to feel at ease ever again. You know what you're describing exactly what i was trying to say but better. Unnerving is the word that i was looking for and it's not intellectual right. If you sit down you understand where the risk is and where it isn't but it doesn't mean you're willing to wait into it because of the habits you develop. Yes i feel for everybody around me from you. Know i feel for for all the people gone through things and you know and there's no sign around my neck that says hey i actually get tested so they have as well muscle memory. Let's go kevin. It's great to talk to you as always always lead to hear from you. Thanks so much for your call. Eight seven seven three zero one eight hundred nine seven. You look disgusted margarita. You look plunge jin when what are you know. We pledge and i was just looking at know some of these examples in the story that we know riding in cars is very dangerous. We do it anyway. We do a lot of things that are kind of dangerous lavas are. The flu is obviously doesn't kill obviously nearly as many people whereas fifty or sixty thousand people. Year congratulates young half a million now. But i think a lot of us. Aren't that careful about those things. People are just different about what they're willing to risk. I mean for example jim. I don't see myself jumping out of an airplane. Would you jump out of an airplane. Don't think so but some people do it a lot of time. Why wouldn't i do it again replying. No no but those kinds of things are like time. Tom brady of agree. So paul the jumped off one of those very high look at this guy risking his His how the differences what you're describing is somebody doing a normal times calculation of risk of a particular behaviour. Am i going to do this and might not do this. That's totally different. With all due respect to whoever wrote the peace here you're coming through a year of great anxiety about risk in every single direction. You have to shed something. It isn't like you're coming in neutral as you are if you decide. I'm going to get in a car. I'm going to get into plane jump. You know what i mean. And that's what i think is. That's what is the big element here. It's hard to lose that. I hadn't thought i did believe a couple of weeks ago. Was a switch on and off once people get vaccinated kind of thing. I don't believe that anymore. I hope it doesn't take long. But i think it's going to be a slow path. It's unnerving as kevin said marine wooster high high so to pick things two years ago i went to key west. I'm a nurse. My husband's a doctor. Somebody on the plane needed help. We jumped up turns out to me and had the flu. I got the flu twelve hours arriving in key west and was in dead in the hotel because the dog didn't think i was going to get home so you know that was like okay. I gotta wear a mask on a plane. And then i'm vaccinated but i've been nowhere for a year just came home my dental cleaning. When i turned on the radio i was laughing. I first time. I've got my teeth cleaned but i said to them. This is my outing. This is it good to see you guys. I'm not going anywhere doing nothing It's you know it's frightening. This is it is not gone. And that's the mistake we're gonna make we're gonna we're gonna delude ourselves into thinking. Oh you know. We're all vaccinated. It's we're good to go. We're not we're so not so. Will you know. But marie you describe me perfectly to kevin. Did but i worry about almost the opposite. You worried they were going to be to erase sponsoring. I worry that we're going to be not just to responsible that we're we're we're gonna be paralyzed. I mean you're a good example. I'm doing the exact same thing. Saturday morning that you did i decided my one outing. I'm not double vaccinated. But my one outings the dentist. Because i've now gone a year plus without having been there and i decided that's a risk i'm willing to take but i'm not willing to take other risks that day and it's sort of like you making that calculation so in any case that was good story. Marie thanks for sharing with us. We appreciate it thanks. Listen to this from caitlyn She says she's a huge concert. Junkie eagle wayne the return to normal She's lived in. Dc in new york city never in a life before bothered by cross. But lately i find. If i'm a store that feels too crowded out up and leave. I live alone work from home. I think my year of near total isolation done some more psychological damage than i realized. That's what she sounds like. Exactly what you're talking about. And then there was one down here as we said something similar. Oh jody i'm going to have no trouble sharing food and drinks post vaccination but i do think my personal space bubble is going to stay about six feet permanently. Wow and other people are talking about how they're going to keep washing their hands a lot more than the original remember. Used to make fun of our producer. It was running a little pure on his pocket. Always carrying the piero. The same kind of thing maybe put. That never would have thought of that. Now here's another good example. I'm a big hand shaker. As you know both on my television show. I liked the physical contact foul. She said a couple of months ago which is another example. This we may never shake hands again. He doesn't mean it's going to be illegal or people barred from doing it. But people's risk aversion made lead them to never engage in the behavior. Do we were told we couldn't do for these twelve months. Gonna put one of those big bottles of the pure all right in the gym. So people can shake is they can wipe off your churn. The handshake is going to go by the boards. I think that's horrible human. That kind of contact is not the cuomo kind of contact the handshake and important. You do the bill. Clinton freight variation with bill clinton got the hang right for the elbow or the upper arm or wherever you want. I mean what's up book that opens with that collar colors the opening paragraph so nailed bill clinton even though the hand moves up. Yeah that's exactly right. Seven three zero one. Eighty nine seventy. We're talking about whether or not even when we are technically free to re enter the world post full vaccination if some of the risk aversion that we all wisely developed during the pandemic is going to stay with us deb in new bedford high. Hey it's dead in bedford but deb in bedford. Welcome deb in bedford. It's a it's a beautiful place in new bedford as well. I've worked for the department of public health. I have a master's in public health and sixty four. I haven't been vaccinated yet. Luckily i don't have to comb abilities. I wanna say that. People's behaviors will adapt and evolve. And some of it. We will study the cultures in in asia. That have been mask wearing for very very. Yeah how how they have adapted and evolved and each of us will continue to have access to more healthcare because wonderfully. It's all ella telehealth. So people's logic and ma rational mind will ultimately get a lot of attention and they will then make choices hopefully based on as much rational thinking as they can but they'll be incremental changes just like they were incremental changes to get us to do what we did now and i will continue to have an inner circle of people that i know what their behaviors are and then the next rim of people around me in the next room and i will adapt in each of those circles dependent upon how much by and i've had from them all along and then going forward and some people will be Risk averse and be out at the outer edges but the psychological burden will be big and I'll be double masking. And i wish shields. I go to a restaurant where shield. I'll be wearing a shield for the long time but we'll also have more access to frequent testing. We will have more knowledge. That's developed as we progress from the science. And it's also a thing that is very socio-economically related We're really going to have to devote a lot of resources to help those who are risk averse to having vaccines and who have already limited access to healthcare resources. Hey deb deb. Deb in for your shrink or something public health degree. I didn't hear that. I'm sorry it's so clear. You know so i have a umass. Undergrad public health. Bu masters in public health worked at the department of public health and have a comprehensive generalist attitude about all of these factors. That i'm bringing up in terms of how we're gonna go to hell of coal. Thank you have a call to me. A lot of it is that you're not gonna die. You probably not going to die. I mean nobody wants to be sick for two weeks where nobody wants to get the flu. Especially if you've had a really bad flu but the scariest thing about cove it to me was that yeah. I've found that really scary to or that. You would be so debilitated that you wouldn't recover or you would become you know someone that the heart disease the blood clot kind of things those think you can think your way through it emotionally difficult situation and you may be able to but a lot of people. I think i'm among them. Can't you're sort of saying. I'm going to weigh the pros and cons. I'm gonna look at the risk. I'm gonna look at the the the the unpleasantness of not taking the risk and reentering society. I wish that was the way all of us live their lives. I wish it was how i think. There's a huge emotional component right. Well at several people said it's a real psychological damage has been tremendous. And it's gonna take us a long time. I think i think that that's true. And i'm not saying the right attitude. I'm just saying that the scariest thing to me was being really really sick. Not recovering or dying obviously is so many people have and it's just devastating. I think we're out of time. And by the way i guess tonight who is a doctor who wrote a piece in the washington post. I just realized this is humiliating. Most exactly this point about reenter society. So you might wanna watch. Actually tim i i watch every night. If i don't watch. I tape it. And i i think out of bed in the morning dulcet tones. I find exactly what you're talking about taking great risks by the way that is way up there. Okay thanks a lot today. We really appreciate it. Hope you can tune in again tomorrow when we are joined by our friday. stars callie. crossley. Sue o'connell the media maven and emily rooney with the famous list. Want to thank our crew chelsea mercer matthews yooglie aiden calmly and mackenzie farkas. Our engineer is john. The claw parker the engineers keep our remote studios running our miles smith and dave goelz. You've just told me about one guest yard. Tell me a little bit more about well. Actually i looking at her name. Is lucy mcbride and she has a question in the washington post. I've been yearning for an end of the pandemic now that it's here a little afraid. Which is exactly what we're talking about. Jake hawkins congressman succeeded. Joe kennedy voted on this historic package. We're going to talk to him about what the future holds for bipartisanship. If there's any future at all and somebody who's political courage. I admire lot. Lebron james was a role model people. He's not going to be on tonight if that's what you're excited. However the great howard bryant whom we both love. And we're gonna talk about the fact that lebron is announced publicly that he will not tell the world whether he gets vaccinated or not. That's a personal decision for him and his family and we're going to discuss whether or not that is the right thing for him. He's doing. I know it's his obviously. It's his right to do that but considering how he is is he giving up a huge opportunity to be a model for people on an important issue vaccine hesitancy case. That's all tonight on greater boston at seven o'clock and by the way we had a ken burns in lynn. Novick on today do not miss. Yeah as brilliant. I'm jim geraghty. Thanks again for tuning in hope. You have a great day see letter.

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