20 Episode results for "Ken Williams"

Minisode: Ken Williams

Forgotten Heroes Podcast

05:26 min | 10 months ago

Minisode: Ken Williams

"So in one thousand twenty two as I said Hi Buckets Collie hit four. Sixty four or five homers twenty is. That wasn't the best April. It was not the best April. Nineteen twenty two. The Best April belonged to a young man who's also now dead can Williams who hit nine home runs which is still fifteen all time and all fourteen ahead of him had at least twenty games only had fourteen and Ken Williams had a great year that year. Just like George. Kelly led the National League in Twenty One With the giants. This is the like this was the year that Ken Williams led the. Al In home runs beating out babe. Ruth proving further that can Williams is also better than Babe Ruth There are a lot of people who are way better than than than the babe. But there's a little caveat to that A couple of caveats to Ken Williams Story Babe. Ruth was suspended. The first month of the season for barnstorming but cars Lee. During the off season he went around to various little towns staging his own baseball games and getting more money that way for people to come watch him like play against local people and miss some of his friends and the natural. Yeah the commissioner was like juvenile duties. Anyway Ken Williams so the reporter he hit thirty nine homers with one hundred and fifty five. Rbi's that year he hit three thirty two with an opium of ten forty However for the Saint Louis Blues he lost two and lost the MVP degeorge Sizzler Which was I mean it was fine. Sizzler hit four twenty that year which was insane and so like you can kind of tip your cap to that me. Like he was a little bit better but he didn't get a single vote for MVP And this is a year in which the third place vote. Getter was raised shock. Who I think. He's also a candidate for worst player in the hall of fame And he had four homers sixty. Rbi's and hit two eighty one and he sucked fuck. You raise shock so I thought that was interesting. Ken Liens also twenty two. He was the first member of the thirty. Thirty club ever Racial I heard was partially responsible for the stock market crash. He was the catcher white sox. Yeah but I'm pretty sure. He also was speculating in a Reckless ways and he Helped lead to the Great Depression. Yeah I just want. And that's another reason. Why Racial Sucks? Also Ray Shaw was. His career ended when he was being in the head by pitcher Jim Eraser. What a loser. The eraser ended the shock. Yeah well you know what? He deserved it tune into our long running series of why race. Shaw sucks exactly. This is now the race salt. Ray sulk memorial forgotten heroes podcast So He's also candidate for worst player in the hall of fame. Anyway April Twenty. Second Williams became the first batter to hit three homers in a game in the major leagues. Prompting a local newsman in Saint Louis to rate the following poem which. I can't imagine I don't know why this hasn't been inscribed in the National Library. I'll read it for you. Whose name is on every tongue. Ken Williams whose praises on now daily. Sold Ken Williams. Who is the routers joy in pride who gives the Pesky Hill right? That's the baseball and separates it from its hide can Williams. Who is our most admired? Youth can will you? Who MAKES The van? Forget Babe Ruth. Now you see why you shit. Ken Williams who was the guy so calm swings is rusty batting and knocks the pellet but also the baseball four. Nobody writes them like they used to. They really don't they don't use pellet pill or Google G. O. L. Never heard of that. I've heard of the other one. Yeah so I think this guy also wanted to Ken. Williams for his part can wins was super classy at the end of the season when he beat out. Babe Ruth People were like so now. Better Babe Ruth And he's like well babe. Ruth hit twelve home runs while he was suspended. So no-one is as good as he is. And I'll go further to say. I am not anywhere near as good as he is. So and then day. Ruth paid him to go barnstorming within that next summer. Yeah and they played basketball with Thai pockets. Kelly pockets Kellyanne some aliens and the Photo Nineteen Twenties. Louis Louis to called the Zany to. They were all super racist. It was just the black crowes from Dumbo and lake That singing guy from that other one.

Ken Williams Ken Liens Ruth People Ray Shaw baseball Ruth Kelly Ken lake That Lee Louis Louis Sizzler giants Saint Louis George Photo Nineteen Twenties Jim Eraser National League Getter commissioner
Internet Voting in Indian Country (ep 208)

MEDIA INDIGENA : Indigenous current affairs

37:14 min | 10 months ago

Internet Voting in Indian Country (ep 208)

"Who From Winnipeg this media indigenous episode to wait on this week's indigenous roundtable twenty-first-century voting nineteenth century colonialism? First nations feels frustrated by the fact that just weeks away from its June election. It's still hasn't gotten a green light from Indian affairs to hold their own vote under their own rules. Rules that include online voting system day say is critical admit concerns of covert nineteen in a moment. We'll discuss the delay and whether turning democracy digital in Indian country is a good thing or not but first let's take a moment to thank those who cast their own kind of palate our way every month our patrons on patriots patrons like Elizabeth. Who'S NEW TO DOLLAR MONTHLY? Pledge came with this message. I've been a listener for over a year here in the US. And I love the quality of the podcast and the amazing dialogue like many. I've paused moments of motion to laugh. Cry Smile rewind and share episodes but a deeply touched me your complex conversations challenge previous constructs and emboldened my own intuitive feelings about what is wrong. They dream ways changes can work toward seven generations in the future. Thank you Elizabeth. Thanks to everyone able to support while we do which in turn enables everyone to enjoy this podcast and back around a once again are in Edmonton. Ken Williams Assistant Professor With the University of Alberta Department of drama. Hello Ken Hello Rick and McDougall Ontario Associate Professor of indigenous studies at York University Brooke piddle on a quad. Hey Brooke Steichen Brooke our topic. This week takes us to northern Ontario specifically the ticket MEG. Shang first nation a relatively short drive west of Sudbury also known as Whitefish Lake community leaders. There claim its upcoming election is in limbo thanks to indigenous services. Canada according to the Sudbury star quote unlike standard elections dictated by the Indian act. Take things custom. Code provides the ability for members to vote online on quote. Now they're election code is somewhat knew it was ratified by ban members in late. January of this year but the star reports quote approval of the minister is still required before they can be exempted under section seventy four of the Indian Act Unquote the paper also reports that the first nation is now being told that the process involves another review. This time by the Justice Department before the minister can sign off now Brooke. We obviously live in complicated times. But I'm wondering. How far does that go with you? As far as what whitefish obviously feels is federal foot-dragging. As you mentioned I mean there has been a lot of disruptions like I think there's been quite a bit of attention paid to the Primary the Democratic primary in the United States with different states making the decision to cancel The the caucuses or the primaries in different places. So I think it's very reasonable for the ticket machine first nation to want to make sure that there's a safe alternative mechanism for their upcoming vote. My understanding is that This process of online voting has been going on in different first nations for some time now or they've had mail-in ballots so it seems like they're definitely Options that are available for the first nations to not do face to face type In person votes so I. It seems like Inevitable that this is going to be a shift that happens and yeah it was. I mean Kennedy was ratified in in January late January. Thirtieth the absolute latest. But still In your mind does that give Their respective departments Indian Affairs and Justice Canada Time to get this going. I mean wouldn't it be a fairly straightforward process to to move this along to move them to to to a new regime while the flaw in your statement there rick was straightforward? Yes yes stress. The pandemic is affected my logic but yeah I know it's it's You would think okay yes you would think it would be enough time you know. Maybe covet is a is responsible for Things slowing down at digital services candidate who knows? Maybe it isn't a it's let's just put it this way. I if anyone ever talked about if there's one kind of consistent complaint about what was them in affairs now Indigent Services Canada. Any number of government organizations that handles indigenous people being efficient than swift and clear is not one of them That's been a constant complaint so I don't know I would imagine the kind of oversight needed to make sure that the election is fair and regulated. I can understand that and without knowing honestly I can't say this As if I have any information but I would assume justice Canada's very very carefully because just as candidate are the government's lawyers and they gotta make sure regulation is safe Legally for Canada. If you know what I mean and I bet that's probably one of the one of the things that's holding everything up in you know again to put it back onto Cova. Maybe that's slowing things down now. This vote is supposed to be happening in in June and it seems like they're in a bit of a a weird space because of as we know. There's a recent extension of any ban council. The WHO's WHO's next scheduled. Election was going to come up during this pandemic There were sort of given an extension if they wanted For a certain amount of time in order to extend their term by the minister yet again. Another thing that's dependent on whether the minister allows it or not and so this is also complicating this but in any case Bracket so you claim that there are other first nations. Who already do this. I didn't realize that so to me. It almost seems like well. If that's in place elsewhere didn't should that should almost be a again. My logic may be too reliant on things being straightforward here. But I would think okay. It's been done once already. At least why not just copy and paste as it were. Yeah but my understanding is. It's the entire Custom Code Right. We're just talking about the distance voting provisions If the Justice Department has reviewed the entire code. I don't know what else might be there like. Ken mentioned the might require that review. So it's okay so what one can't just pull out one piece. Yeah Gotcha okay but I mean how. How big do these custom codes get? I mean I have to admit I have not seen the particular custom code in this case but surely they aren't thousands of pages. No but it's just that in terms of the government's own liability if they allow that to go through and why they probably want their lawyers to go through every piece of it to make sure that they're they're the federal government's protected at once. The custom code kicks in. That's all I. I don't. I don't know in terms of the actual process of review. What Okay. Here's the dumb question protected from what what's the exposure here for the fits. The exposure is that they're always One okay look. Let's sort of back up a bit and look at the whole idea of a custom code and the fact that is still has to be approved by the federal government. Yeah you get to be self determining what once we once we approve it. Yeah it's it's kind of like the running joke about. Her candidate became a country because it was an active legislation by the British government. Made made us country separate unto ourselves. SORTA seems to be the continuing paradigm. The governments of Canada been following. Ever since. Yeah it's it's just to make sure it's legal. Make sure it follows all the laws because I think this still exists. Okay in you can correct me if I'm wrong and I'm willing to admit I'm wrong. But as far as I know no matter what law like custom code that a first nation passes it still has to be compliant with the rest of candidates federal legislation. Am I correct on that yes? That's my understanding. Yeah yeah so I think. That's why the Justice Department is is looking over to make sure that is compliance with it doesn't discriminate against people based on gender you know disability In the rest of the rest of it Listed in our charter of rights. So I think that's one thing they look at you. Know 'cause access like for me Access it elections are about access right so if you go online does that mean. I don't know how they've written their online Voting regulations but you have to look at how people can access the right to vote as and if if it's somehow violates something in the Charter of rights than that's why justice candidates involved So I'm I'm reading the Sudbury Star article and it says here that according to the leadership the election code was reviewed prior to the community vote. Okay we're given permission to proceed to vote. The officials from indigenous services candidate also approved the ratification process and were made aware of the timelines for ratification. An election under the custom code according to Take Mixing. Okay so that kind of throws everything. We're talking about the window except for the part will now they send it to the Justice Department? That's where I'm wondering whether there's something they're kind of like what you were a suggesting can about there may be a charter. Issue that arose. And so maybe that's where indigenous services wants some other oversight or review of it but. Yeah that's IT I mean I. I can understand the first nations frustration for sure that they've been given the signal that yes. This is good to go. They ratified it as a community. And now there's still a with the election looming. Yeah and if just as Canada is the one has to oversee this remember. That's that's not just the only job justice. Canada has right there there overlooking every piece of legislation coming up. I bet you the new gun. Legislation League new gun ban is definitely something. They're examining very carefully at this moment. You know and I bet you. It's all hands on deck with that And so again I can get. I'm only speculating. Please be aware. I'm only speculating. Furring anything about anybody's character or willingness to work. But you know I'm just trying to see. Wept would be getting injustice candidates way from ratifying what seems fairly straightforward. Okay another dumb question but I would think that this is not the first issue that just Canada would need to look at On behalf of candidates with regard to first nations matters is there not a wing or an arm or a branch or Insert Metaphor here of Justice candidate? That only looks at this type of stuff and and thus would not necessarily be pulled into the coverted. Response Yeah I don't know I. I don't know enough about how Justice Canada and Indigenous Services Canada collaborate. Okay we'll leave it as an open question. I mean and just to clarify further though that again according to the Sudbury Star article the situation. And and this is perhaps. What makes it? Unusual is that as I mentioned ratified their new code in January but they had to finish out their current two year term as chief and council under the existing act and so they were left in this odd situation where they have this upcoming election. They're supposed to have a turnover In July and so there were facing kind of a double whammy this so called governance gap that we have been hearing so much about with with regard to a similar first nations whose term came up during a pandemic and but then they also switched their code. So I don't know I'm I'm I'm trying to see it from both sides here but but I think everyone would agree this is. This is a pity way for first nations to have to operate after. Go basically and get permission from Daddy. Meanwhile hanging in the air of course is Some introduction of legislation with regard to trip which of course was supposed to affirm the rights of indigenous people to determine their own political affairs. I Dunno we'll again. They are corrected is you know paternalistic it. Is you know still colonial thinking. We're still subject to the whims of the crown. Know Even when we do get our own as we as it seems to be a sort of an implied that we get some sort of essence of self-government by their own custom code but it still needs federal. Now just because I don't want good research to go to waste. I'm curious about how you both feel about. Online voting in terms of its its reliability. Because I have to say I'm not getting a great sense about it because so even though I think on the one hand this is really interesting and I suppose in air quotes innovative that that first is looking at online voting. That said it's not seen as as reliable by a certain experts anyway. Looking at an article from the Washington Post from thousand sixteen voting online is growing. It will be in place in more than thirty states. For the presidential election primarily for for voters living overseas or in the military but at least one homeland security officials said we believe online voting introduces great risk into the system by threatening voter expectations of confidentiality accountability and security of their votes obviously leaves it open to malicious actors to manipulate the results. Npr last month had a story. About how in response to the pandemic some? Us states will soon be turning to a quote unquote relatively new untested form of Internet based voting for people with disabilities as well as those overseas and in the military. Delaware's GonNa have its primary election next month on that basis. West Virginia was the first state to allow some voters to use an APP to vote in the two thousand. Eighteen midterms and New Jersey may follow in their footsteps. Despite quote grave warnings from the Cyber Security Community. That technology doesn't offer sufficient safeguards that that's on a much bigger scale. I mean what do you feel about those concerns as they may or may not apply to first nations votes conducted in that way? While I'm not I'm not an IT specialists by any standard. But what believe it? Or not. I I can build a computer but no I can't program. Academically like in in within organizations like the University of burn it whenever we have elections for various administrative positions that served the faculty using online voting system. Just to give you an example. What it is. It's tied to your university email. You have your pin once. You've registered that pen and used it the activates it and therefore you voted now. That's based on the fact that there were using a system that identifies the users that is unique to that institution. So that's you of a male We each are given a specific kind of ID that students staff and administration faculty so within a closed system. A small system of it is safe it is effective and is very fast and efficient and I think most first nations would mimic a small system. Because we're not talking about millions of votes were having to deal with only talk about thousands At the most so as long as it would it would involve the damn treating form of identification process. That is reliable to them And that's the far as I can say about that. It's it's no better or worse in in terms of security than any other kind of voting system. Mail in or even going in person really. We have scrutineers elections for that. Very reason right So it's it's it's depends on the system. They set up. We'LL BE AS EFFECTIVE AS SYSTEM. They set up. You know that's I know. That's kind of a bland thing to say but it's not any better worse. I believe than traditional walk in at the ballot box. Drop your vote. So you're not. You're not spooked by CYBERSECURITY experts. Well not not. You're not spooked by those cyber security experts. Who who feel that. It's too open to abuse. I wouldn't do it for a large federal election. Wouldn't do it even for a provincial or city election but something like it We're talking about limited number votes. There's only so many votes are they're funny. You should mention provincial. Because again in my previous research I I was surprised to learn that. N W T became the first jurisdiction in Canada to use online voting in a provincial territorial election for its nineteen members to the deputy legislative assembly. You could vote online as early as three weeks before Election Day as long as you registered for what they call an absentee ballot. Hand so again. This is still That I could see why. That's effective because the deputies a massive amount space right you know it's a huge territory of course most populations live within Several small cities but they are spread out. So I don't know again. I think it's because it's on that scale. It's it's it gives me less concern safe. It was a national election. What about a county of over a million voters? Well because that's what's happening in the state of Washington King County for the first time ever in the United States. All eligible voters there were able to cast ballots via smartphone. Yeah and that includes the city of Seattle and I think that's when you start getting into issues again and of course he looks the election issue. Two Thousand Sixteen the whole idea of voter machines. That were hacked. Yeah you know. They were already in person voting machines again. It could get you could get Threatened Your Your. Your security is threatened through no matter of many number of ways to That you have so. It's a matter of how well you can protect yourself. That's that's what I'm saying that I'm not saying anything's perfect but nothing is perfect right so okay. Now Brooke This is interesting so I take Kens. Point that you know we're dealing with a smaller population. Let's let's stick with A White Fish Lake. It has according to its website as of last spring thirteen hundred members one hundred thirty eight households. Here's the interesting thing for me though. of those members four hundred thirty three or on reserve eight hundred seventy are off reserve and as. We know there's differing practices across. What is now Canada when it comes to first nation's being more or less inclusive of off reserve voting and I'm wondering to the extent that first nations who online route if they don't also allow offers or voting that would be kind of an incompatible thing or at least raises the question of Well I if I can vote online. I can be anywhere. So why would it be consistent to disallow offers or voting than if you had online systems have made them more complicated than well? I think they're not allowed to disallow right. They're not allowed to disallow now. I'm carrying on with the complications getting into law. There's a corbiere exactly. That's what I was thinking of too. So offer of members are allowed to participate in unreserved elections. We know that when's the last time either of you got a email or a postcard or something or vocals egg. Hey did you know the votes cut like what I was? Just GonNa say. My reserve is actually right next to thick shake so there's white fish lake and Whitefish River first nation and we do online voting than so legis earlier this year. I that's exactly what happened. I got a mail package from my reserve. There's a ballot that can either be mailed in or you're given a pin that you're allowed to do an online vote so it's my my reserve sexes. Which are saying I'm saying it's terrible And actually I just while we were talking about this. I went on the website. It's a private company that runs the runs. The online voting indigenous are not indigenous. Run to my knowledge. It's non-indigenous Park. I I mean I'm not trying to promote them by any means as just I know that it's it exists. I've participated in it and it seems to work my very active in finding their members and reaching out to them and constantly reminding them know the election days coming here the people who vote running And now be with with the Internet and stuff that we can. We can do some online sort of The forums candidate forums and stuff like that they. They're very aggressive in using so. I feel they're doing a very good job in making sure that I'm informed in. I know when elections happening and if all else fails my mother phones me. Jesus I gotta get on this. I got a I got a phone. The Band is now interesting. Though I take according to the Sudbury star is also planning to stream their nomination meeting and the counting of ballots as additional safety measures to protect their community. So all though counting about like what would they do I? I don't get that I mean we. We all watch the screen together anyway. I also share some of those concerns though about I mean not having paper ballots and an I think back to. I think it was the you know the Mexican presidential election in in the early nineties there was widespread a belief that the election was rigged. After people voted in terms of the the the the counterbalance this was supposedly done by computer system and it seemed like it was trending a certain way and then supposedly the system crashed and then when the system was restored the person who had been living in the election fell behind never seemed to be a chance to really verify whether there had been some kind of electoral fraud. Although it was suspected nice and I I remember hearing the same thing in the Bush Gore election in the United States. In two thousand there was concerns than to that Somehow certain. Us states had because they had different systems for counting ballots. It seemed that some were predisposed to Selecting certain outcomes at least that was one of the rumors so I I can see why people would be nervous about the shift to online. I mean it seems I guess that's kind of what I meant in my opening statement that to some extent this feels inevitable like certainly like twenty five years ago so many of the ships we already see like virtually all of our banking like so much of right now. Virtually all of our commerce that were engaged in it's happening electronically so that's that's sort of the inevitability of this that I see too but I I share that concern about the the ability for people to really deserve scrutineers to actually make sure that those are legitimate ballots that are being cast and they're being properly counted. We've all sort of talked about okay. We have our fair share of concerns about this system about the integrity of it. Canada has a dedicated arm's length body. Called Elections candidate should first nations pursue the same? Let's leave to the side. The question of where the money would come from for this. But wouldn't that make sense to have sort of a a standalone independent electoral oversight body that administers elections and protects its integrity including online systems. He asked leading well. There was an attempt to. Oh boy not exactly what you're describing. But just in an Ontario with National League Nation Governance Agreement. There was an attempt to bring in sort of Not even oversight per se but it would just be a an organization that would to some extent represent a niche Shabat. First nations like band councils at a what would look like a tribal counselor regional level and even though they were quite clear at least in the promoting of this and that it would not supersede local first nations that was a concern and the a Nj Was intended to at least provide technical support for election codes and that type of thing and it didn't really resonate like there was many first nations who voted on it recently and Ontario am I understanding is the majority of them did not support the G. I think I'm sure you guys can of many examples. Do this often seems to be a concern that local first nations do not want to lose control over their own programs or any any sort of mechanism really and so that the likelihood of first nations signing onto some kind of electoral authority. I. It's interesting to contemplate. I just having just watched that that vote last year it sort of crashed and burned at least at least for the Abbot Nation Governance Agreement. Yeah we intertribal federated coordinated approaches to other things on. This is why thought aloud. Why not this too but but I take your point. It seems they local communities really want to hold onto. That was there. Wasn't this one of those aspects of the first nations. Governance acted that would be like an electric electoral commission oversee all. First nations elections man. He's got a good memory early. Two thousands now. Yeah that's two thousand to two thousand three exactly at but I think that was one of the things that one of the really sticky points for. Everyone was that you can't you couldn't have one organization looking over it. Overseeing all the first nations elections just it just sort of went flew in the face of understanding like individual just the regionalisms and also the different nationhood in different traditions in this country. so yeah to that point ric think that's this. This was already considered once just before the idea of online voting was a thing and it kind of brings us full circle because once again a straightforward idea is anything but in practice and But I also remember. I seem to recall. Former leader of the Assembly Manitoba Chiefs suggesting that first nations look at coordinating their their elections at the same time as a way for administrative efficiencies or something like that but that that hit the ground. Pretty hard with a third. Now okay before we go. I just a couple more things I mean again. Don't want my research to go to waste The National Conference of State Legislatures apparently five states currently conduct all their elections entirely by mail Colorado Hawaii Oregon Washington in Utah for some reason. Maybe I'm just too analog or whatever but I sort of feel Mellon elections mail in ballots and using you know these sorta technique of sticking an envelope inside an envelope. So you don't know who in you only get registered a a ballot? If you're on the list it gets mailed directly to your house again. Yes it could be open to to abuse but it seems to me. I don't know my gut just tells me that that's less potentially open to abuse than than online voting and obviously it's in Houston state so it's quote unquote tried and true My question is and I have a sense. I know what you're GonNa say but yes people who are overseas or people who aren't on reserve like people who who are quote unquote absentee they get to vote. That's one thing. That's a minority voters. What about Whitefish Lake or any other first nation doing their elections entirely by mail and not bothering with the Internet? I mean what about that? I mean would that be a stretch to do why I think it's just about people? Wanting to take advantage of the technology that's available and they probably see it as being more efficient than easier and less onerous on people like you are reliance again reliance on something external lake with the Internet you reliant on the Internet. Whoever your Internet provider is mail in ballots? Your reliance on Canada Post. But maybe it's cheaper. Maybe the cost of printing ballot Cost of mailing it out the cost of mailing it back. is going to save the money. Maybe that's another thing they're looking at as long as they can afford insurance security Then you know for me. That's that's the thing is that maybe they're looking at cost. Maybe THEY WANNA see it move forward. And maybe people get more of a sense that they're participating if they could actually press a button and then like they're saying a stream the counting of the ballots. Afterwards I would be very interesting to see. Yeah or or maybe maybe a hybrid. I mean if you're mailing it. Then the male stays in the community and then you the scrutineering the the key counting once everything's stripped out of its source envelope is counted online again. I don't what they're they're how dependent set that up like I said it's not a huge shift. I don't think and how we do things I think it's just a matter of ensuring people in it and that's That's my big question. That's my only question is do. I have the confidence that this is a secure way of casting my ballot and knowing that it's going to be counted fairly okay. And that's the problem with anything right. It's problem with you know have you ever. Have you ever been part of an election? Where you you? I mean the actual mechanics of the election. We're counting ballots MELTZER. You'd think you can count to ten confidently all Norman but then because because so much is on the line you actually you know starts wondering if the cow to dead over and over is really quite funny. The self doubt that that starts to kick in on such a basic easy thing but when the stakes are high you just like you start doubting yourself and it's really funny. How don't get me started on hanging? Chads now held Jazzman Poor Chad. Okay all right I wanNA leave asking you guys whether or not you'd think if this pandemic continues long enough let's say it goes to the time that the offense supposed to have its next election. Let's say it goes to twenty twenty one. Could we see the idea? Floated of the Assembly of first nations conducting. Its next election. This is total speculation. How much buying do you think there will be among chiefs at large for that to happen by mail or by Internet? Yeah I mean I this whole thing. That comes to mind right now. Is the parliament sitting by zoom by Zillow? Whatever is hard for me to imagine that far out I I would suspect that chiefs who deal all the time like with electronic meetings and teleconferences and whatnot would probably make it work. Yeah I do think that this is. That's what I meant earlier. By the inevitability of this this is just a trend that is almost impossible to resist in terms of relying on electronic voting systems. I I think in large part the question will be how to make those systems Seem legitimate and the security is important but also just for people that have confidence that that those systems aren't going to be hacked or corrupted in some way you know just the AFN's the it's not even if they don't have a an election for the national chief. They do vote on a variety of things during the annual general assembly and they have a tradition of using proxies people who because of the again taking into account the size of this country and trying to locate every single chief into one location. They've been using proxies for years. So you know what's the difference between that's just the physical person who votes on your behalf. If you have internet capability in your in your allowed to vote I think it's just I think they'll find a way to make it work. I think the thing that specify specific in special about how the though elects national chief is That need sixty percents right of votes. And as we've seen though sometimes those things can go quite late into the night So you constantly. Voting voting and voting As he has each candidate gets eliminated. I think it's I. I would agree with Brock. I think it's inevitable. I think it's just a matter of just making the system work. I don't think I don't see there's a massive overhaul a real a real seismic shift in thinking at all I think it's just a assuring people that the security proper security things take into account in inner done because I don't know how many people based off the Internet with their credit card. You know you're if you feel confident doing that. Feel you can set up a system. Where people are confident voting? But that's a totally fair point about the proxy voting system so But I also wonder as these work arounds of using tools like zoom and whatnot to conduct meetings. Maybe they'll build in the capacity to instantaneous voting as well Wow what a brave new world. We're in or ninety. That's not quite a FRAC- one but it's certainly a changing one and I want to thank you both for sharing your thoughts on this. I vote. This was a very interesting conversation. I sent my vote by email. Did you get it at the three and Brock? I think you majors in. So we'll we'll find out what you thought of today's discussions and a couple business days. For thank you lads. That's it for media and digital episode. Two hundred eight recorded the early afternoon of May Ninth. Two Thousand Twenty. Thanks again to Ken. Williams Assistant Professor at the University of Alberta's Department of drama and Brock Pittawan quote associate professor of Indigenous Studies at York University. I'm Ricard thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again. Soon will say our theme is nesting bureaucratic.

Canada United States Justice Department Ken Williams Sudbury Sudbury Star Whitefish Lake Indian Affairs Ontario New Jersey Justice Canada and Indigenous Brooke Steichen Brooke Winnipeg Indigenous Studies Edmonton Elizabeth
Scoping out Indigenous reaction to Canada's weapons ban (ep 209)

MEDIA INDIGENA : Indigenous current affairs

25:12 min | 9 months ago

Scoping out Indigenous reaction to Canada's weapons ban (ep 209)

"Hello from Winnipeg this media and digital episode two. Oh nine on this week's indigenous roundtable weapons and exception liberal government's recently announced ban on fifteen hundred types of assault. Weapons is not going over well. As certain gun owners could the exemption for among others indigenous hunters make them a target and along. We'll cover which weapons ban covers and whether Canada always walks. Let's talk concerning violence. But first let's thank the people who make this podcast possible our patrons on Patriots and among them newer patriots. A whole bunch like tests. And Maya each now pledging one dollar every month kyle pledging to meanwhile coming in at five dollars a month. Each are Peter Eric. Victor Marcel Mandel. Mary Kina and Janet Lindsay and Andrea. Now pledging ten dollars every month along with Douglas and John. Each now contributing twenty dollars a month. Thanks to everyone in a position to support what we do. Your investments enables to enjoy this podcast and joining me back at the round table back to back round tables with the boys our Edmonson Ken Williams Assistant Professor with the University of Alberta's Department of drama. Ken Hi Rick. It's to be back and McDougal Terry. Associate Professor of Indigenous Studies York University Brock Pedal WanNa Quad Ken. Our topic. This week takes us to Ottawa. Where according to. Ap National News. The prime minister announced an immediate stopped. The use transport buying and selling of assault weapons saying their only purpose is to kill other people to protect law abiding gun owners from criminal liability until they can take steps to comply with this new law. There will be a two year amnesty period. And we will legislate fair compensation Justice Minister David. Lamidi added the during the two year. Amnesty no one can use their weapons except for one emission. There will be an exception for indigenous peoples exercising a section thirty-five hunting right as well as those who used the weapon for hunting to feed themselves or their family. They may continue using firearms that were previously non restricted for these purposes until a suitable replacement can be acquired. Todd Lebron Survey National News with that report. Can I ask one of you to try and explain something to me and I know I'm a big thick air? David Eddy the Justice Minister he Indigenous hunters may continue using firearms that were previously non restricted for these purposes until a suitable replacement can be acquired. I don't understand what that means. That essentially means that the gun ban is now gonNA make extra research at so. That's yeah essentially like an incomplete grandfathering. They they will become restricted. And for the next couple years they are able to continue using them yet they will no longer be able to use that all in two years time and the minder sending to anyone who hunts for food will have like a two year phase in of this. So I definitely want to get your reactions to this but My first reaction upon reading the story was so there now exist in this world. Fifteen hundred different types of assault weapons. Are you kidding me? Essentially you know. There's one basic type enders modifications to it. That's what that that's about. There's not like what well you can modify the barrel. You can modify the trigger. Mount you can modify the grip you can modify the butt stock. You could modify a bunch of things and within Canada. All extremely restricted and limited. But you can still do it you know. Some of the motivations are purely cosmetic okay. I'll another grip underneath you barrel. You put a different scope on it or whatever. Yeah it's it's It's multiple variations of still. It's it's a bit of a mind boggling set of set of modifications that you can make fifteen hundred types so Would it be helpful though Ken to demarcate what an assault weapon is while see? This is where you get into some really interesting semantics where you'll get the people who are in the pro gun lobby say there's no such thing as an assault weapon or an assault rifle. They will say that does not exist And now you're GonNa ask me do a deep dive into what that actually means not just deep enough to make you know for our purposes. My understanding that was there was a change that happened in the twentieth century where rifles which had generally been semi automatic. That something that a single person could use in Kerry Were switched over to become automatic. Weapons that could carry say magazines of twenty five to thirty rounds and so they became much more lethal than a rifle. That say would be a pump action where you'd have to. You could have the magazine but only be firing one round at a time. Once they had automatic weapons you could spray an area and injure many more people are potentially kill many more people for military purposes. Not for hunting or harvesting. You wouldn't want to spray. You know animals or livestock With an automatic weapon. And then just you know. Clean up the mess afterwards because they're also Intended often to not believable but to injure because military grade weapons it was discovered there in some ways more effective when you injure somebody as opposed to kill them outright and so that's part of the reason why the Canadian military did this as well. They used to have very powerful rifles that would essentially punch a hole in a person. And and you get shot with that in your you're dead overtime. Like many other militaries around the world. They switched to smaller Bullets essentially they were designed in a way that they would move within the body essentially like ricochet inside you and caused extensive harm but would lead to a slower slower death and I. I'm the advantage of injuring. Somebody as opposed to killing them. Is that if you're a soldier on a battlefield and you're in a firefight of some sort and your fellow soldiers are getting injured you're going to try to extricate them. You'RE GONNA try to recover them and help them get removed to the rear whereas if they're dead you're gonNA leave them and so from an enemy's perspective the more soldiers that you can take out the fewer will actually be able to be engaged in the fight against you because you're going to have fellow soldiers trying to come in and assist wounded soldiers and pull them back and so that was some of the logic is like if if you're in a fight the more soldiers you wound you're actually going to take out one or two extra for anyone. You wound as opposed to kill because those soldiers will from that point on be involved in essentially not quite stretcher burying but doing whatever they can to get their wounded comrades back to a safe spot so there was a shift where you saw this Emphasis on creating weapons that can harm as many people as possible. And that's essentially what we have with. Automatic weapons is that you can kill or injure many people at once and that that shift really just took place. I mean I'm thinking in terms of the Vietnam War really when you saw. Every single soldier in the field was equipped with an automatic weapon prior to that like Second World War. Automatic weapons did exist. That could be carried by an individual soldier but for the most part were they were still being issued with rifles. So it's only been in the last fifty years. Can we say that we've had these types of weapons proliferate? The other thing about the smaller bullets was. You could carry more bullets but the other thing was I carried that big big old rifle. Fm Battle at some point. Six two. And I still remember two days ten pounds. A little bit without ammunition. Reminded US why you would have that opportunity because I was in the army when I was nineteen right but each box of each each magazine. Only carry twenty bullets as whereas the magazines for the M16 style rifles. Carry thirty. Well I've learned a lot about Guns today Let me try and lay out. What the differentiation. That that matters to our conversation is broadly. Speaking super broadly speaking either two types of guns one those that can shoot one bullet at a time and those that can shoot a lot at at any one time. But I don't believe that you can actually buy a rifle that can go fully automatic in Canada. That's my understanding as well because there's semi automatic you can fire those pretty fast with some training and discipline but I don't think you can actually by fully automatic rifle. Or It's illegal to have a fully automatic rifle in Canada. Okay all right now anytime. Indigenous people are perceived as getting differential treatment can a candidate it can raise eyebrows and it can raise hackles and the like and help people understand why and how I guess. Indigenous hunters are being excluded from this ban on assault weapons well as temporary excluded right right right for two years. Jan. Yeah Yeah Yeah well okay. One the reason why they're being excluded because section thirty five guarantees Editions right to hunt yet. We are not subject to certain regulations in terms of hunting. Get the UNFOR- subsists subsistence all year. Round on Crown Land So just you know. That's they they would see that as an infringement now this was interesting because I try to find some data wear if there's any actual numbers on the number of indigenous people who own essentially these weapons that are eventually going to be banned and I couldn't find any kind of data one of it I think. Is there Sumi that those numbers are relatively smaller? The other thing. Is that the the Canadian Rangers. I don't know if this is part of the whole issue are mostly indigenous. People and there are no longer issuing the Leeann feels. I believe they're actually getting brand new rifle Battle rifle and and and for those who don't know remind us. Through the Canadian Rangers are and what their mandate is. Rangers are a Is Not Exclusively. Indigenous largely indigenous What's called a reserve unit? Hard time soldiers. They live full-time in the community. They are responsible defensive north responsible for scouting they're responsible for identifying enemy. Everything else I got in the north. That's their position and you usually see them with their traditional rent but it sweatshirts with the Rangers insignia on them. But they are. They are considered integral part of the Canadian Forces operations. Because civilians soldiers they live in the community. They're given their issued a battle rifle the rifle or allowed to keep it at home and they're also issued two hundred rounds of ammunition per year to us one for training and also for hunting subsistence. So maybe that's part of it. That's what I'm assuming Have you have you seen pushback from from any cohort of gun? Owners against the the exemption for indigenous hunters. No I I I know one of those people who actually very actively against this thing and he's never brought that up not even once. He's just against the ban on principle. So that's that's is. That surprises me a little beyond well. I think it's because you know they. They just maybe they understand the numbers as well. I don't know but it doesn't seem like I have not seen that as an issue and I've been sort of beating trying to look for it and I have not seen that. Come up as a point of concern from the pro gun lobby so we talked about fifteen hundred assault weapons is. They're kind of a a standard grouping of Weapons that are used for hunting or do they also have a wide variety of options? Like you look at type of bullet that people use for hunting in that sort of tells you the different types of variations that are available out there like you can have seven magnum thirty thirty. Three Eight You know there's various. There's various grades of shotguns from everything from four tend to do. I have to say Ken this. This is GonNa like betray city Indian but I have no idea what you're talking about really okay. I really don't but here's my point if I want to go hunt. I have probably dozens of options of guns. I could choose from many yet. Okay hundreds you have hundreds of now. The thing is okay. No going through those kind of you know statement. You don't need an AR fifteen to go hunt deer. I think he said isn't it? You wouldn't use an ar fifteen. It's the bullets too small. The round is too small. You actually have to the you when you. They're they're hunting guides. And you have your caliber rifle and then when you buy your bullet you have to buy the proper grain size and charge for the animal. You're hunting if you hunting. You need a larger grain round and charge because you need something big much more punch to kill the animal quickly. An air fifty. Unless you're unless you get a really precise shot at again. It's not like you can't do it. One shot the object. Is You kill the Animal. One shot you kill the animals quickly as possible so you you hunt the Moose. You're looking for a bigger grain round. Okay so that's Yeah. You have hundreds of variation you can even use black powder rifles. That's another one. You mean like the ones we see at the time of American Declaration of independence. Yeah yeah there's there's there's there's a whole group of people who love black powder hunting. They one shot. You GotTa get close. Okay well be accurate man and then just bow hunting crossbow hunting like there's all things legally yeah are credible huntings not legal Canada. But I know it's legal in the state so let me ask though about the politics of this. Do we see at any point. A trajectory whereby there may be some disagreement about this. I mean the devil's in the details is GONNA play it over two years. Could there be a point of contention where Canada wants to go. Really hard on restrictions and first nations pushed back for whatever reason? That's what I'm trying to get at again. I think for me it. It depends on the actual numbers of restricted. Were talking about in first nations communities right. I don't know what the hard data is that. My Dad has said is my family going based on that. I don't know any of them have restricted rifle. They're all hunting rifles. They're all shotguns. There's none of the resemble military great weapon okay so same with you. Brock. Many in your family. Yeah I do I do think I I know someone who has like a a military type breifly that they had kind of boasted about having and I so I can see some people who would feel that This would be taking away a prize possession of some sort but I kind of go back to Chen's point earlier about like the certain weapons have certain purposes. You'd say you you have like rifles for hunting deer versus hunting Moose versus hunting and God forbid and elephant but and so like there's also clearly weapons that were designed to harm and kill human beings and As many human beings as possible in a shorter period of sinus possible. And there's no confusing the two in your mind. Not really because like you look how many people are going to try to take out a whole. I mean dearer quite solitary as it is but like a whole herd of I dunno Caribou or something. I once like. I just think the situations where somebody would need a a single individual would need a a rifle that would fire that many rounds in that short a period of time. I I don't really see that as being a for the purposes of hunting and so I actually think This would be one instance where I do agree with Trudeau on his his point about you need an ar fifteen to go deer hunting lie. Ken said it wouldn't even be an ideal weapon in that regard and so but this is one of those things that I feel really get spun like there's something about the hard right gun lobby and I even wonder like some of these people who are protesting here in Canada. Whether it's almost like they've been drinking the Republican kool-aid notching crappy shows from the US for so long that somehow they've got brainwashed into believing they really need these types of weapons and it's somehow become part of their somehow part of their identity and unfortunately like with co vid going on. I think in some ways. It's almost feeds into some of that paranoia that this you know. There's a government conspiracy and people having to hand over firearms somehow an attempt to disarm the population. I that's where I think the the timing for something like this never ideal but and some ways I feel like it's long overdue. These these weapons should not be circulating in any civilian population. And it's it's a global problem like I mean it's not just a Canadian problem by any means like there's just too many too many weapons in the world that that's that's obvious and navy if there is pushback would be from weapons makers who they want to sell as many as they can they love gun collectors because it means they can keep pumping out more prophets and again Canada. Has You know. Canada has twenty million guns as it is. Oh my to a website called the gun. Blog DOT CA which is very much against the new gun ban. They say fifty to twenty million guns are owned by individuals in Canada or protection hunting recreation competition collecting Predator control and other beneficial uses uses. That's nearly a gun per as you know. It's a gun every two thirds of the population for every adults or sure. Yeah definitely forever adult and we have a very low rate of gun violence in in Canada. We trying to bring it down to zero. I think is is a worthy goal. I believe it's a hobby. Hobby is not a right. If four-fifths of the Canadian population don't want these types of weapons available than they should not be available. That's that's just democracy and action. It's understood that the motivation for this is in part due to the mass shooting in Nova Scotia. Recently twenty two dead including the shooter. Australia also had his own experience with a mass shooting. And I'd be curious to know if there are any exemptions for indigenous hunters or how first nations are received the ban themselves any. It's something to think about something to compare. Well I think the real issue women looking at that kind of violence is access to to to look at. Look at me on violence right. I completely agree nuts. The issue the underlying factors of male violence. I think we have to look at those underlying issues and address that just as much as we're gonNA address access to the gun in some ways trying to use guns as the way to stop. You know this type of violence is the same way of trying to the war on drugs. It didn't stop the importation of drugs Because the Halifax shooting started up with a spousal assault and a spousal abuse so it. These things tend to go hand in hand. Yeah and I think I believe. That's you know just as much needs to be done if not more in that area will lead to less violence than simply banning particularly data gun. Absolutely this is. This is as much about social questions questions of gender questions of sexism as anything else and I guess you know my bread election in looking at these types of questions is always to imagine what it would be like. If an indigenous people was self determining in this regard the far. I've not heard anyone clamor to say first. Nations can regulate guns themselves. Thank you very much. Maybe because as we've already discussed you know the the extraordinary obviousness about not wanting to machine gun a moose. No absolutely but I will say when I hear Justin Trudeau is say words like every single Canadian wants to see less gun violence and safer communities it. Is it just me? Who's mind? Hearkens back to Ohka the Gustafsen Lake when we look at the images the video coming out not once but twice out of the anti coastal gas link activism there and the rate on the owners Stoughton camp RCMP heavily paramilitary forces coming in so the dissidents. Jarring I you know. I know this drum beat all the time but Canada is a questionable actor in the world when it comes to aiding and abetting repression even violence you know. Bolivia the role in the Lima Group regard Venezuela Canada Canada's sold or will sell almost six billion dollars arms over twenty five years to Saudi Arabia including these light armored vehicles which are equipped with Some of them cannons two man. Turrets thirty millimeter chain guns like I don't know it seems they're fine with exporting violence or aiding and abetting that but at home the. I know I know maybe I'm pushing everything into this brain salad. That doesn't belong together but it is. It is food for thought. I do appreciate the point about the hypocrisy of this of talking about the importance of keeping people safe By reducing the number of firearms within the country while candidates still allowing for weapons to be exported And especially in the case you mentioned of Saudi Arabia a country that has a absolutely brutal human rights record towards its own citizens and especially towards women in in that country. I feel like this is a conversation where we're just marking the starting of it and we'll see what our thoughts look like two years hence so. I appreciate you guys taking me to the gun. Show showing me walking me through all the various types of Tools of destruction. I did not know that there were that many thunder sticks out there. So we'll have one more opportunity to speak before we go on our summer. Hiatus not in terms of episodes but in terms of our conversation so I look forward to checking in with both of you again then. Great sounds could take care. Guys you to take care. That's it for media and digital episode. Two hundred nine recorded the early afternoon of May Ninth. Two Thousand and twenty. Thanks again to Ken. Williams system professor with the University of Alberta's Department of drama and Brock Piddle. One o'clock associate professor of indigenous studies at York University. I'm Rick Harp. Thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again soon. I go say is missing.

Canada assault Ken US Winnipeg Justin Trudeau Indigenous Studies York Univer Edmonson Ken Williams Assistan Department of drama Canadian Rangers National News Brock Pedal WanNa Quad Ken Justice Minister David Victor Marcel Mandel Patriots prime minister University of Alberta McDougal Terry Rangers kyle
Yves Bergquist on the Forthcoming Explosion in Creativity Around Media

Mission Daily

56:59 min | 1 year ago

Yves Bergquist on the Forthcoming Explosion in Creativity Around Media

"Didn't see their don't mind me just typing on my quirky typewriter keyboard for anyone who doesn't know this is a keyboard that was inspired by typewriter so it has actual keys a return key spot to put your ipad type on and it's been so fun to play with and we have one quirky keyboard to give away in our giveaway this week emission dot org slash giveaway. You can enter for a chance to win or you can just listen to me type. We also have a second product to give away this week in our giveaway. It's the Muse to brain sensing headband. I really like catchphrase. Sitting down is just the beginning which really cool about this headband is if anyone has ever tried to meditate before and you're like man. I'm just anxious about this. I can't stop thinking about the day so many things going through my mind calm down Stephanie honey. It's time to meditate this headbands really nice because it actually has sensors that provide real time feedback on your brain activity your heart rate your breath and your body movements and it helps really guided meditation experience so we're giving away one of these one of the quirky keyboards good emission dot org slash giveaway for a chance to win and good luck. I'm Alec Baldwin and you are listening to mission daily selected as best of twenty eighteen by apple mission. Daily is the number one podcast for accelerated learning on today's episode we have used Bergquist an A._i.. Researcher and director answer of the A._I.. And Neuroscience Media Project at the entertainment technology center where he and his team are focused on researching and developing next generation applications drawn from a and neuroscience for the media and entertainment industry eaves is also the founder and C._E._o.. Of A startup corto which leverages deep neuroscience in research to surface what attributes of media content resonate with audiences and how those cognitive alignment are driving content performance in this episode Chad we need to discuss how the entertainment industry has traditionally evaluated new entertainment projects and how eases changing this with his deep neuroscience in A._I.. Research where are you based in Los Angeles and is your startup keeping you there or are you traveling all over the world. I try to to be very disciplined with my my travel because I have a family and I just WanNa be traveling all the time but yeah there's or going to Norway <hes> in two weeks for a conference this conferences all over the place I I try to be. It's always hard to to to say Noda to people 'cause I really loved the stuff that I really love talking about it. But you know that's the way it is for sure and defined a lot of emerging information or new memes in theories at these conferences. Obviously there are some but how much <hes> yeah basically how much new Intel and new discoveries are you encountering so conferences for me or mostly of tool to find new clients. I try not to rely on conferences for new information because otherwise you know I would be constantly gone and there's nothing more mind numbing than to attend conferences for for weeks and weeks on end so as a matter of fact. I have a principle that I don't i. I don't attend conferences. If I'm not speaking there Gotcha just because otherwise I would spend my life doing this hard already managing so many I have so many balls in the air between my lab and my <hes> my research in in in the stuff that I write and my startup. It's it's really difficult so I try to limit conference attendance and then you know the the really really interesting stuff you know I have a few people really trust that I follow on on twitter and I that if it's not bubbling up to their feet it's probably not worth my time very cool so that's I guess a good overview of how you view information curation and how you're going about getting your your Intel there. Are there any other sources <hes> that you prefer whether it's like scientific vic papers or databases or subscriptions where where you going there. I think the O'Reilly a newsletter Scher really outstanding I think I don't think they are covering anything thing. That is a waste of my time and I don't think that there's anything that's substantial. That's not covered <hes> I think between that and <hes> M._I._T.. Technology Review <hes> you're basically covered with serious serious things that are happening across the you know that are noteworthy because there's just so much going on that is really hard to to curate everything very cool and could you talk to us a little bit about your work at <hes> A._T._C. or the entertainment technology center and how that came to be sure <hes> so how that came to be as I walked into the Office of Ken Williams I knew about A._T._C. before but I walked into the office of now my boss Ken Williams. WHO's the Executive Director Had C._O._P._D.? The N._S._A. You're the temperature hosie center there's A._I.. and machine learning is this really big category of tack <hes> That is very relevant entertainment but at the same time very complex and there's a lot going on so do you want let me to create a track in your in your institution. That's solely dedicated to machine learning and you know you don't have to pay me. I'll get funded all flesh it out. Just give me a business card an email address in an office and I'll just take it from there and to his credit. He said Yes 'cause he's. That's is the kind of Guy <hes> but <hes> and so there are three years later <hes> you know we we've done some incredible work during breakthrough research <hes> we're are fully funded and which exciting stuff so it's really one of the things that actually have been probably the thing that I've been the proudest of <hes> it might be. My professional career is to take this thing from from zero to one hundred with <hes> with cans leadership. I think what's it's exciting to is that the <hes> backers and the people that are funding this are some of the biggest names in technology and media and entertainment <hes>. Could you talk a little bit about how you chose to put together that group of funders and what may be some of them bring to the table that <hes> is important for for your group Yes so I didn't put them together. These are members of the technology center that are funding the center in funding might work by way of by way of that <hes> the came to the center really by by chance <hes> I became aware of their activities and who was member in at the level of representation at the center is is insane so the more it is all the C._T._O.'s of all the Hollywood studios and you have very very senior executives from companies like Cisco and Microsoft and in Technicolor of Neo Nagra Kudelski <hes> ubiquity Gray Snow Nielsen et Cetera et Cetera and the most senior executives imaginable in the technical recall in the Technical Organization for all these organizations and the conversation is right there about you know what problems do they have and what a pretend these they would have to develop something that would solve these problems at a massive scale. If you look at his studio uh-huh studio will spend billions of dollars marketing movies right. If you make a ten percent improvement on that across five studios you can imagine how massive your impacted right so sure you have a one stop shop for the problem definition and then you go and prototype solutions and you have a one stop shop for applying these solutions to the industry as a whole was really amazing because he has one foot in academia and one foot of industry where you have the freedom of academia where we can turn things and push should limits and and draw on all the resources that are across U._S._c. now just at the school cinematic arts which is part of but also the Engineering School <hes> the neuroscience school etcetera etcetera that philosophy's cool <hes> and yes so when fund academia you have all the reason with all the all the freedom active and then you have all the accountability industry where if you develop some things are really interesting and disruptive for the Ansari that solve a real problem then you have the opportunity to implement them at the level of an industry which is really amazing and so it's a very special place. It's really the the highest level conversation about technology and media and and it's just it's just fun. It's like the most exciting sandbox in media as H._e._c. and I think what's so exciting about this space to is that the frontiers and the rules are being written right now so as a market. How do you view the total? It'll addressable market for maybe like we could call it like new or emerging forms of media <hes>. There's there's original content. There are all these different <hes> new mediums. I are there a couple of names or is there some language from the industry you can provide provide us to talk about this so I'll I'll push your argument a little further what the media industry is about the the the product of the media industry is stories and narratives. You're in marketing advertising news certainly entertainment telling stories and you're telling stories that you really hoping or going to resonate with audiences and what you really sending his brain states and so I like to tell people that media has neuroscience without neuroscientists because you're making and selling brain states without any kind of notion of neuroscience and so what we're doing is we're like hey we what happens if we try to really understand what is essentially neuroscience in terms of neuroscience artificial intelligence and that's disruptive. I think very disruptive way to think about it. Because you really going back to first Chris Principles of the media industry which is you know science and an storytelling and so when you do that then you sort of re completely factor the way you think about about storytelling and so the total addressable market of stories. What is this really interesting question I it's it's a cross media at attainment advertising marketing politics everything I've been relationships <hes> healthcare <hes> the the biggest thing in in human civilization? That's what the total addressable market is human civilization for me and that's kind of really deliberately how we think about it <hes> we we don't just optimize try to optimize stories for a teammate really try and figure hi what kind of narrative structures native domains emotional analogies get people to behave in specific ways so we can better understand the stories that we're telling the consequences of the stories that we telling shoe and really try to tell stories that help people in a better way so I'll give you an example conspiracy theories spread faster times further than the truth and it's because we'd see conspiracy theories or a much better story than reality L._A.. I WANNA find a way to tell the story of reality as exciting more exciting than conspiracy theories if you look at violent extremism for example also violent extremism as basically when some type of mental illness meets a really really good story and you see it across Isis Neo Nazis malicious like that it's really the reunion of mental illness meeting really really good and compelling story and so that's you know we look to to make an impact there as well so the way so obviously we're thinking a lot bro more broadly than than the auto industry is thinking because you know they're corporations and they need to <hes> you know they have shareholders and they need to have their own agendas but really putting this at a very very high level of Hey. How do we understand stories as a narrative from a purely cognitive standpoint and how do we understand what kind of stories resident inlet way with with kind of people and generate what kind of behavior that's really what we're trying to do? We're really getting close now. Yeah I think this is a great segue way to start talking about de risking <hes> media investments if we think about stories and what they do for us as humans they kind of de risk the <hes> the learning process right because we don't have to then venture out on the on our own and get a similar experience we could live through the experience of others so how how are you thinking about de risking the learning process or the process of creating new blockbusters. I can tell you what we're doing right. Now can take some very concrete examples. I can't name the studio so I can name the Property But oh sure yeah just an anonymous version. That would be awesome yeah so for a very long time. <hes> new entertainment projects were evaluated through. What's called a COMP system? The COMM system is a bunch of bunch of people reading the script and and getting to a meeting and say well this movie or TV show is life these four or five movies T._v.. Shows that we know of <hes> we're gonNA average the Nielsen Ratings or the or the box of us which of these five movies or T._v. shows that it's like and then we're just going to give us a target for our <hes> <hes> for how much money could make this project by you and I realize that this is not a very good thing right about things and I think with this really misunderstands is the fact that audiences this media audiences are any radically radically difference situation now than they were even fifteen twenty years ago because fifteen twenty years ago the entertainment industry you had a strong hold on people's entertainment type you had to handful studios heroes and a handful of of of cable channels network cable channels and there really wasn't any thing else than watching T._v.. or go to the movies with theater you could do with your time so it was all intensive. Purposes is an awfully fast forward to now where you have virtually just tens of thousands of options for how to entertain yourself at any point in time and most of them are free. It's a completely different market for the entertainment industry right so if you think about about us from an audience perspective you're really dealing with an audience of experts so you and I and everybody who's watched T._v.. or or gone to the movies or absolute experts in <hes> because our brain has been trained <unk> over thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of hours of watching contact about that includes advertising marketing content in trained to recognize the good stuff from the bounced off and so when that happens something interesting happens cognitive the what happens cognitively heavily is you have a very strong desire for novelty and so a lot of the risk models that are still applied today really worked very well. Fifteen twenty years ago really aren't working very well today and so what we're doing <hes> in in an environment where <hes> the key success factor Israeli how much novelty you're going to bring to a certain genre or sub aura or character type that would just measure that mathematically way we look at similar to like less per minute. I think is a metric in comedy where this would just be a different metric right. Yes so so hopefully it's a little bit more sophisticated again so so we extract all the attributes and those of character attributes relationship attributes emotional Tonelli's and we have database of about ten thousand scripts that we go out to and we look at intrinsically what are so it's metrolink which processing application that just goes out on his own so machine driven application he goes out and say hey. This script that you gave me is like these five or six scripts on these dimensions. It's like well. The characters are have sort of the the main characters have these similar emotional journeys overall descript has this tonality the care to relationships that matter most have this tonality so it's really measuring everything that the human mind and will not gravitate to give me an example we're working for a studio and their producers comped that spy movie with other spy movies which is very natural spy movie bonding Oakland Burnett and stuff like that the problem is it doesn't really that doesn't really capture what the story is that captures what the genre is. What type of film is and that's substantial? It's not meaningless nice but this was an enormous amount of attributes about that script. They have nothing to do with the spy genre that are have to do with the flavor of the script and whether it's like in the flavor of the characters that is very very important because it's going to draw an audience ends that isn't necessarily a core spy movie fan on Inspe- but is gonNA vibe with the characters if you're going to buy with the film about and so when you're doing comps without us you're kind of really limiting yourself instead of going to see every single spy movie out there because they're really big fans of the spy. They're really ignores a lot of audience segments that are going to gravitate towards certain movies based on extraneous <hes> attributes that have nothing to do with genre and so what we do is we then then so he have something machine representation of the cops and then go out to social media and we look at okay. What are the audiences for these? Cops it's very kind of three hundred sixty degree view of what is your addressable audience. What is the cops for this script? What is what are the audiences for the comps and we go to read it twitter facebook? Go everywhere we can to look at how many are there. How passionate are they about these kinds of attributes that are in your script and how do you talk to them in a way that convinces them to go? Watch your TV show or see you're moving right so we're really trying to be at scientific as possible. It's granular possible in really nailing down very granular audience segments and that includes by the way <hes> geographic audiences. We can give you a list of Zip codes where your movie movie or your TV. Show is <hes> predicted to do very very well and you can look at you can do out do a lot of modeling based on that okay. What is the size of my decibel audience? What is the size of the audience that we know have a ninety nine percents going versus? Does that have a sixty five inches of going and then you can do some financial modelling around now but as a whole the much better much more scientific way it's not perfect obviously but it's much better much more scientific way of looking at an addressable audience in copping project very cool and that's are we talking about Cordo your platform there or are we talking about a separate research. <hes> we talked about quarter okay very very cool and yet for for people who are just joining us or who are not familiar. <hes> CORDO is startup an early stage startup that is building a very comprehensive platform to help media makers understand the story that they're telling and predict how much the story is is going to resonate with different audiences segments and to essentially create a microscope into media audiences for anybody telling any story vehicle and obviously you don't build something like this unless you're deeply passionate about a space so where did your interest in in stories or technologies or really anything in the space <hes>. What are your earliest memories so I grew up on film sets my <hes>? I was raised by single mom that was doing wardrobe <hes> for films in France and so I grew up on film sets which as kid is there's no better environment to to grow up because it's just the most incredible the place film set as one of the most incredible places you can. You can go to still now. I go on Moody Lots. Movie lots are just magical. I mean it's a completely magical environment as really think that's what the film never left me. Although I did various things <hes> was always a film fan wanted to be an actor at some point to be a director at some points has always been very very immersed in that environment and and I also <hes> very early on gravitated a lot towards psychology and in cognitive science and so it's really a way for me to kind of bridge <hes> to bridge the two also did a lot of research on on terrorism back ten years ago and <hes> actually lived in Pakistan for a little bit and did some research on on militant networks and militant groups and it really struck me that a lot of the question asked myself. How do you get get someone to want to become a suicide bomber and in the course of doing research around that or unless I called you the ideology of is really interesting to kept coming up on on narrative just powerful Nervo compelling narrative meeting certain mental situation that is in search of a narrative structure and identity as I really got me thinking about about narrative and then <hes> you know if you if you start reading about stories and and especially stories in film you start realizing that there's a very authentic structure two stories a set of steps to solve the problem? If you look at every single story the Hero's journey in Hollywood is really is that a focused on <hes> solving a problem and sometimes there's a personal problem and then a collective problem. Sometimes there's just a collective problem. Sometimes there's just a personal problem but it really is very algorithm. Automatic is a set of steps to solve problems also how you define a mathematical. They're more software algorithm and so you know the two are very closely linked so that got me to really try to understand <hes> are there you know expressions. If a story <hes> that are equivalent to expressions in mathematical algorithms and sure enough there are and just yet question for my own selfish interests here but how big is the space in terms of researchers. How many any other researchers are there out there that are you know many researchers and practitioners where yeah who would you consider to be in space are very few that I know of <hes> there is less than five and and and less than five <hes> mostly less than ten <hes> some are still in the space <hes> some I know oh there's someone at the University of Vermont that stick about this <hes> Disney research has done a lot of Disney has a research center Zurich Sun a lot of work on this <hes> Josh Heisenberg give the University of Florida? Eh now is L._A.. has done as P._G.. Recently illness but really very very good. If you think about take it once they're further and think about the neuroscience of narrative. There's virtually no one yeah I feel like with some recent <hes> pop cultural phenomena with sapiens and things like that it's it's only a matter of time before <hes> the tech community gets excited about that. <hes> and most most of them already are it's just I guess in the periphery. It's not in there <hes> the forefront yet but I'll tell you what it's also really interesting because if you're studying it from an A._i.. machining standpoint <hes> the the way they I machine learning as being approached today which is through mostly neural networks. <hes> is almost entirely inappropriate to to study narrator <hes> knowing that works very powerful doing a lot of things they're not good at all at and methane low level data in this case in words to <hes> symbols could represent the structure of a story and in fact the task of mapping low level data so words in there sort of in their semantics of words to symbolic representation is one of the most difficult but also most foundational parts of building artificial intelligence because when you start building machines or machine applications that can truly understand <hes> speech human speech or human narrative at a symbolic like level which is the level at which the human brain really understands that and they have been does that really well <hes> then you'll be they'll be a major step toward sound official dental intelligence and so that's kind of all what also so energizes me from a research point. Is that the problems that we're finding ourselves trying to solve our some of the biggest problems that A._G._I.. <hes> the interesting side of that is <hes>. There is such a focus right right now on a neural network based I that in I'm pretty confident this is not the right track to to to build what I'm talking about. We have a completely different philosophy where completely different set of tools that includes many many different methodologies including neural networks to try to create this sort of symbolic representation that through which machines cannoli process taxed but also really understand taxed and and really going from machine to machine understanding when you have that when you have the ability to map a low level data to symbolic representation at manipulating symbols. I'm going to see how these symbols exist within an era do and then you'll have the really big step towards towards Scher and so speaking of I- A._G._I.. And as we move towards that <hes> is one of the things that we can do to prepare <hes> just creating better human centric Eric Narratives <hes> and then putting them out there and basically creating more more positively in our narratives <hes>. Is this something that's like a <hes>. You know if we don't do this fast. Enough is a G._I.. Just going to be horrible for it's a difficult question to answer. There what I will say is <hes> the capacity to articulate a narrative which is what you will he talks about that ability will be the monopoly of humans for a very long time. If you look at the different kinds of knowledge you have declared of knowledge is basically fact Paris was the capital of France has his a piece of declared a village and for that we've realized I go a Lulu is is is <hes> a very good example of how now declared of knowledge is the monthly of machines and and thank God for that because there was really a stupid way to spend your life to just accumulate random facts and information so I'm really glad we've got that outsource because that was a completely meaningless <hes> way to spend one's life to accumulate facts now the second part the second type of knowledge is procedural knowledge. how We build a rocket? How do we how do we do things <hes> in that field humans will have an advantage for <hes> a certain amount of time as I'm technically how long <hes> eventually machines won't get better than us but for now <hes> human still have the advantage of as a third type of Knowledge College which I've added which is narrative knowledge which is <hes> once? We are trying to figure out something to do if we let's say let's say we have an idea for probably going to start a company. That's procedural knowledge. How do we how do we start this company? How do we build this product? That's procedural knowledge but then narrative knowledge. What kind of story do we create? Get people motivated to build this product is ultimately the most valuable and hardest to replicate the most valuable symbolic and is going to be a monopoly of humans for a very long time. Now doesn't mean that machines aren't going to help along the way but it really means that any of the day <hes> build something and sell something are going to be to skills the skills that are the most valuable in an Air A._G._I.. Future I learn how to build something learn. How tell a story that gets a lot of people excited about this thing? Those are the two things that we can be confident are going to be the monopoly of the human mind for for awhile very cool and so I'm very curious about this. What is your take on? <hes> narratives and their ability are narrative something that can heal <hes> may be generational trauma or trauma <hes> I in general in someone's life and where what's the research say about that narrative. Let's just go back to the to our definition of story narrator. <hes> we see narrative is an object but most importantly we see narrative is a process narrative is the process of taking the enormous complexity of the world around us and compressing it into a set of steps that we can into a view of the world a very compressed summarize view of the world's that is a procedural view of the world that helps us understand what to do in this context so <hes> you know your your the way you dress is a story right. Y You you <hes> the way you approach someone. Whether it's a stranger or someone the very short interaction with or someone who's really meaningful in your life you really creating a compressed narrative compressed representation presentation of that person and that representations going to dictate how you act with that person and so understanding that process we think we'd be very very important in <hes> changing changing people's view of the world's for the better right <hes> a lot of the times I mean if you think about racism racism is a type of taking the complexity of the world around you compressing it in a in a in a certain way that is going to guide your views to different people different races different genders etcetera etcetera if we can understand that and if we can understand what <hes> on the process that goes into that and the variables that go into that then we can change maybe we can change the narrative around it and you can change the narrative in news for example in a way that <hes> <hes> disempowers racism of its cognitive arguments that makes it his sure sure yeah the so we are really trying to figure that out right now where or that fits in the <hes> in society and health care frankly. I don't know <hes> We'd love to find interesting things and then talk to people who would be in charge of applying them about how all applicable they are and how to apply them and and how to be accountable for it because if you think about what we're doing it's potentially very disruptive and so we really work on debate and accountability and transparency around the stuff that we do because we think that <hes> only through community driven dialogue. Can we make sure that we're doing the right things were applying. These are very powerful tools to create good society. Yeah and I think that the <hes> a lot like open. I used to be open source. Maybe there should be something <music> similar like that where there's some open research about. Maybe mind brain interfaces or what people's <hes> brain does in inside an M._r._i.. When they're given certain narratives or something like that maybe maybe there's like some core body the of research that could be available to the public or not? Do you think it's not appropriate and would only like slowdown in industry that still tune isn't where it for it to matter I go back and forth on that. I like open source because it's the most accountable and transparent way to create disruption. <hes> what about open sources that it's available to the guys and the bad guys right. Would I prefer to open source is community driven <hes> accountability around the a meaning that we are giving this to a group of people and researchers that are accountable to the that are held accountable to the larger community to use it for good through <hes> <hes> the democratic process <hes> that's kind of what I prefer to open source. I mean it's a very complex question and very multifaceted question <hes> <hes> you know she think about you know social media social media was was can be weaponized for good and it can be weaponized for to stabilize communities and anti countryside so should we make of you know the the reason it is being so disruptive in positive and negative ways because it's available to all it's open source quoted so the whole open source debate to me <hes> can maybe needs fear factor a little bit. I think I would love to have a wider conversation about hey. What is open source mean and what do we make open source and why do we not make sway and I think it they conversation naturally moves towards well? It would be nice if we could like price. The have a fair price and then psych well. A market is pretty good at doing that so <hes> yes. I think it's <hes> it's definitely an interesting debate and it's an important one to have <hes> so wh what else is going on right now whether it's in the industry or in your research that your like that is top of mind right now you keep thinking about stuff that I'm real excited about is stuff that we're doing with categorizing content and audio we are building A._T._C.. Application Vivek which is gonNA take any input video video and audio and extract every single attribute about the idea is to create supercharged content personalization models content recommendation models <hes> if you think about ah your favorite movies and T._v.. Shows Right and I ask you you know what you like about those movies and T._v.. Shows are you gonNa give me an answer. That's very high level <hes> because <unk> even in your consciousness you're limited in assessing things like well. How much does the Look of the Godfather account for how much I liked the Godfather? How much does the Music Dick of interstellar account for how much I love interstellar in how much allot if you think yeah no obviously did a great job and music actually is is one of the most GonNa Deliberate and conscious attributes but but there's an enormous amount of subconscious attributes Scher <hes> you know camera angles <hes> color schemes <hes> you know in how all those lineup with emotionally of characters of moments in the film or or how does it how does cinematography and in color and editing and music how do they stack up to represent a specific emotional tonality of character? It was preserved Momeni movie. Nobody understands that today. All right we're well on our ways to create a system that is going to extrapolate that in an extremely granular manner so that suddenly you have a giant liar and since we are you know we're the A._T._C. and we have access to the entire catalogue of the entire entertainment industry we can train it on every single movie ever made and <hes> we are going to be able to represent <hes> any kind of video and it kind of film and it kind of media products across the hundreds of attributes that the has it's what we're doing is if you have time codes for example for each time cove. It's called the meaning code what then this could lead to is creating extremely granular contact gross personalization content recommendation models looking at <hes> <hes> color schemes and and you know in character emotions layered with cinematography in edited pace and in a musical Tonelli's and things like that and really try to really understand us how these moments that really resonate with us cognitively that are so powerful for us. What do they have in them? What is the D._N._A.? Of these moments what is the chemistry of these moments and that's what we're doing today and we're doing this sure I think that would be very disruptive and pretty amazing because if you think about it if I'm a movie maker filmmaker media maker and shooting bar scene for example if this system can pull up all the data about the bar scenes that were shot in the same context as mine and give me that information from a planning standpoint. It's so valuable what's valuable but what I'm what I'm hoping what happens is. We're not delivering data to create to tell them what to do. We're delivering data to creatives to push them to not do what everybody else has done before so maybe if you're shooting a bar scene and we're pulling data about about you know this is how bar scenes have been shot then. Maybe it's challenge. It's hopefully it's going to challenge the creatives to do something different and maybe you already planning to do something different. Maybe you were planning to do something you now realizing is very canonical Poland and traditional in that in that kind of scene and then it's pushing you to try to innovate and that's really what we're trying to do and and <hes> the we're we're very excited about that. <hes> we're very excited about creating conversation from within the creative community we're spending most more time listening into than than talk it we realize because we really want create something that contributes to artistic diversity and creativity and does not constrain it but but just unleashes creatives yeah and that's that's second part is uh so exciting to hear <hes> <hes>. Where do you think the world is at for creators in terms of making a living online whether it's through nonfiction or fiction storytelling I see that world as being dynamic and really exciting place with a lot of opportunity <hes> but I'd interested to hear what you think from your vantage point? I think we're standing on the cusp of an explosion in creativity around media. Frankly I think if you think about the kind of story stories the kind of character is the kind of topics that have been explored through media in the past fifty years. You think you'll see that it's really small spectrum of toys and characters in situations that have been depicted a fairly small. I think there's a there's a whole other world out there. There's a much wider spectrum of stories and characters and situations that can be told than we even are aware us <music> but in so if you can create a <hes> a representation data driven representation of that narrative field you can then again challenge only challenge creatives creatives to go outside of that but also demonstrate mathematically that there is a market for extreme innovation in Hollywood just in Hollywood but across media sure our goal is to make sure that AH films like get out more of these films get paid not less and so we want more of these films that were or T._v.. Shows or products that really push the limit that really tell different stories to different people and that can also create a language where we're trying to create a language that creatives can speak to the people who are funding them to tell the people that are funding them that the risk is not in innovating the risk is enough and trading because audiences want novelty and if you give them novelty today is the surest way to make money in media lose money in media is to create something that's been said before that's been seen before that's been done before and that's <hes> I think what's what's very exciting because it can feel because of our limited imagination and because of what's happened in the past and are you know all we have is the data sets that we've gone through before <hes> at this point so when we look to the future we don't see that the opportunity for new stories might be <hes> you know ten ten times a thousand times what we think it could be so yeah it it could be so much bigger than we <hes> think right now <hes> so in terms of <hes> mediums uh-huh. Are there any type of mediums right now that you're really excited about. Is it just video streaming content. Is it interactive video V._R.. A._R.. All of the above what I'm most excited about right now is reality so the things that we're doing A._T._C. is we're having this conversation across the media industry. About how do we leverage the Internet of things. How do we leverage all of these devices that we have innocent around us and on us and throughout <hes> you know our environment to tell a story at the scale of a city <hes> high and how do we integrate that story with linear content with T._v. and and <hes> some content A._R. V._R.? They all of these channels are incredible there incredible opportunities to tell really completely mercer really amazing stories and what we think about a lot not not seeing what we're really trying to do research and prototype is this notion of telling the story at a scale of an entire city and as you moving through the city the story changes based on who you are what you want <hes> <hes> what what other people around you or feeling what is going on in part of the city of their particular moment in time and has you moving through it you really the city talks to you in the narrative way and you talk to it in a narrative way and what does that look like and how does that project in a marvel cinematic universe for example how do you then how do you extend the avengers universe at the skill of the city. That's the stuff that we think about that stuff. That really really excites me because it's it's it's way way more than than data and machine learning. It's really about interaction relationship. How do you create these relationships serve that are very nurit negatively driven? That's what we talk about this over we do any to see yeah and I think what's so exciting to is this offers an opportunity to go outside of the outside of the the walls of social media basically soak it outside of Plato's Cave and <hes> or at least this offers the ability to turn social media into something that <hes> catalyze experiences <hes> basically yeah just look up from your phone at something like I just it's it's I mean we all know that experience where you're in the getting coffee or your third grocery store at the bank and everyone's looking down and you look up and you'll be looking at you like that's kind of want other people to look up sure I think I'm hoping I'm hoping we can sell that. That would be really really really good thing and I think if we can sort of create these I think as as we <hes> get rid of that sort of mobile phone screen interface and we try to attend dead the story on the content all around us it gives us a lot more opportunities mobile phones have made this kind out of an either or proposition. It should be both if I could you know I mean you have kids I so if we could like play video game with our kids can have in the same space together or consume and you know or or throw a story back and forth between us and them you know and and and went up each other in kind of a narrative tennis like this possibilities are endless and I think we definitely need this to to get back to kind of societal fiber diaper that we're more content with definitely. I think that there are abilities to connect and then empathize with people in in whole new ways right because there's something very intimate that happens when you're just watching a movie with like say a couple of people or <hes> something like that so I would imagine that the nostalgia or whatever feelings catalyze of meaning and there there's going to go through the roof right absolutely but else but also a lot of opportunities for manipulation in. The dark side of that is very oil and we we definitely shouldn't <hes> should we decide what should we talk by Shukri institutions around that yeah and is that something like the creation of those institutions <hes>. Do you think that's going to happen like inside the community or do you think that someone outside is going to pay attention because I I don't see any regulators paying attention to this. Basically you know I can tell you the way I wanted to to to happen yeah. No I'd love to hear through the community I think <hes> you know it's really interesting what's happened in the past fifteen twenty years and then with the introduction of the of the Internet is really that try to itunes disappear replaced by networks so things like the corporation corporation the nation state the government the church even the military has sort of disappeared as institutions at the really been replaced by networks and we can't really deal with networks because they're too complex and we do he needs institutions. We don't need the same institutions than we had twenty thirty forty fifty years ago but we need some kind of institutional framework that isn't that is in between the network level and the government and the nation shovel in those institutions our communities and I would really love to <hes> you know I would really love to have a more fleshed out more systematic <hes> ability to create communities communities at the local level <hes> or the city level or at the state level <hes> even at the national level that the government the dot aren't individuals <hes> to to really <hes> Organiz around it and <hes> and drive the dialogue both within the community also between communities. I think that's something that I would love to see in a more structured manner. Yeah I think that <hes> do you think that that emergence will happen happen around a shared data collectives where groups of people band together and they all own their own data or they take maybe they joined together and get like a joint income share agreement or some type of like nick economic package like that. Do you think it's going to become very tribal and fractured like that. Or what. Do you think the future is there of <hes> local collaboration yeah. That's the risk right so the big risk is is that notion that you know communities these get created with the specific identity specific flavor in that unedited includes rejection of the other communities <hes> and there's definitely a risk of that and so in regards to data sharing thing. I'm a big fan of looking at data like taxes. Would I n meaning that you you have a responsibility to share its contribution this society <hes> because you know my health data I would like my health data to be used to <hes> have to accelerate cancer cures and things like that <hes> so data is somewhere in between a and a complete obligation and but complete publicity frivolous contribution to society it is a substantial contribution to society but I think everybody should be in and we shouldn't necessarily monetize it or we should only monetize certain uses of it. The solution that I see it's it's very simple very elegant is <hes> we we have an obligation to share data because therefore the common good just in the same way that we have an obligation to pay taxes because we decided as a community that you know that we're going to put in the hands of someone that we've loaded for and then we democratically elected then that you know they will be in charge of spending the money <hes> once this should be the same thing with data with the caveat that we we should be in full control of what did we decide to share what they say not in what we decide to share the data four by so I definitely want my data to be used for cancer research. If if it can help I'm not sure on data to be used <hes> by corporations to sell me more ads or or two semi political ads or things like that so that we should have that ability frankly the big the issue that I see with that and really is the number one issue for me in artificial intelligence and especially when you think about artificial intelligence ethics is education. We all need to be better educated about data to be better educated about how they did. It is used about what data is how it's used who uses it what it's worth because it's really not worth much. Sometimes it's worth alive and what kind of value is created by that data at a societal level. I think the challenge of today <hes> is not a technical challenge as much as it is an education challenge because if we as a society don't understand better we're on a horrible decisions about it and and it's just not going to work but and so the <hes> the best way we scientists and researchers can contribute to society is by Educating Society Society into what is what data is what it means <hes> in in trying to create a baseline of understanding that we could make better decisions collectively about what it is very very very curse topic because it's very complicated and is very important and it's also lends itself to fantasy very well so these three factors <unk> adult contribute to very good public perception of but we really have to make to put more emphasis to educated peaking educating people are <unk> are educated about data and is part of that education. Does it start with maybe correcting the media's portrayal of A._I.. As being negative in almost every instance or what's what's that process like ill yeah I would say one of the things that I would love to do is apply the research that we do to telling you about a story about a very minute but but in a nutshell I think it really would help creating baseline of of knowledge about what actually is you know. It's really funny because anytime I talked to people about a I see the same thing and I think it has to do in. Maybe there's something about the human mind that's really interesting that people have seen the highest. They've read the hype but in their heart of hearts they know that it's wrong. They can spot cognitively. They can spot the B._S.. In in the Click Bait and so <hes> it's not necessarily having to walk them back from there Kerr understanding of A._I.. As driven by click beatty it easy about a I. It's really <hes> taking them by the hand they already. They're not really convinced by right they know in the media is trying to scare them and when it's like when they should pay attention when they show people are smart they're intelligent they get click bait generally not not everyone obviously but but a lot of people and certainly the more people than than we think are completely aware that they're being spun and they're being taken on a walk and so when I come in and I talk about no actually this is what's going on in this book predicted to happen. <hes> people already no what I'm about to say and <hes> so I think there is you know so if we can strengthen that with a baseline understanding of data and A._I.. I think we're doing really well because people are already prepped for that. They're not convinced by the hype they're not convinced by that. Just you know stupid declarations in in in clean beatty headlines I think they really know that that's wrong but they don't necessarily know what the baseline and bill and selling so we know what the reality is being very forceful about that is very important. Well said thank you so much for being generous with your time. This has been awesome for everyone listening. Where can they learn more about? You your work and your company A._T._C. Dot org and Corto dot awesome. Thanks thank you mission. Dot Org is a media company with a daily newsletter network of PODCASTS and brand studio designed to accelerate learning head to mission dot Org to get award winning podcast like the mission daily the story I._T.. Visionaries Education Trend's marketing trends future of cities. He's and more mission studios has worked with companies like salesforce Twi- Leo and Ca- Tara to create custom media channels that drive results make sure to subscribe to the missions daily newsletter admission.

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Resource Resistance: Part 1 (ep 222)

MEDIA INDIGENA : Indigenous current affairs

1:02:40 hr | 6 months ago

Resource Resistance: Part 1 (ep 222)

"Hello. I'm Rick Harp. This is media and digital this summer of twenty twenty addition. On this week's collected connected conversations resource resistance. It was a struggle too big to ignore punctuated by striking video of back-to-back raids by militarized police raids against small indigenous encampments in a mostly forested area of what's now known as the North Western Central Interior of British Columbia. Yet, these dramatic events of Twenty nineteen and twenty twenty whatsoever and territory are but part and parcel of a much bigger picture. Their resistance to resource extraction pushback on a pipeline that if built would move two point, one, billion cubic feet defrocked natural gas per day carries loud echoes of battles across the world. Battles against. Fossil? Fueled climate. Catastrophe. For us to properly paint this bigger picture will need a canvas. To be stretched across two episodes. Given. Its global scale. It only makes sense we begin at the United Nations more specifically with the UN Declaration on the rights of indigenous, peoples. Also known as under it. It's an international instrument that Canada like so many others, settlers, colonial countries dragged its feet signing for years. The fear that endorsing, it could be interpreted as supporting an indigenous veto over resource development. So it was no great surprise in two thousand sixteen when a senior politician with the liberal government hinted, they were looking into a so-called Canadian definition of the declaration. Joining me in April of that year to try and explain what the Hell that even meant was Hayden. King. Decorative director of the Yellow head institute at Ryerson University. We pick up our discussion with the distinction between free prior and informed consent and the Canadian government's duty of consultation. Well the duty to consult, which is a legal principle and effectively section thirty five. aboriginal. In the Constitution means. That governments federal provincial governments have an obligation to consult with indigenous peoples who have asserted or establish treaty right that may be negatively affected by some development might be a highway might be transmission line might be a gold mine. And if negatively affected, then they must be accommodated. So this is a duty to consult and accommodate. Peoples who are effectively in the way of development. Now Free Prior informed consent is a competing concept and much more rigorous I guess or or or allows for indigenous peoples to say. We approve of this development or we disapprove of this development and the free part of that means that there's no duress and making that decision. The prior is that all the information regarding the development of prevent presented before development begins informed means all of the information is provided, and then of course, that consent is the your name by indigenous peoples so much more powerful than the duty took insult. So with that in mind, let's turn to to last week when the Liberal Natural Resources Minister Jim car He was speaking before the House, of Commons Aboriginal Affairs Committee. Where he said that his government is quote in the process of providing a Canadian definition of the declaration on the rights of indigenous. Peoples. Unquote. So According to ABC in national, news car was short on details but alluded to something greater clarity of these definitions in reference to free prior and informed consent. Now previous liberal comments about the decoration haven't been nearly so coy ambiguous. What significance do you attach to two cars comments? I think it's significant I because it comes from Jim Carla, Minister of natural resources. So this is the minister that is essentially responsible in part at least for pipeline. So this is this is a minister that has a is is is GonNa you know his portfolio would be affected pretty dramatically if concept like free prior and informed consent where adopted and implemented in in the and context so I that that's significant but maybe it leads me to be a little bit more skeptical that Canadian definition of the declaration would actually honor the spirit of the declaration. You know and again, significance I'm not sure is the word that I would use here. But Jim cars kind of echoing similar comments made by. Chuck stall by John Dunkin to a lesser extent by Bernard, bellcore. Each of those federal ministers when asked about the declaration said. Things that you know, we have section thirty five, and we'll make sure that the declaration corresponds to section thirty five and the declaration is aspirational and and I think that there has been a tr- continuity in the approach by governments liberal or Conservative that they can make the declaration fit in the Canadian context and Bhai Canadian context I mean fit with their interests. To do things like build pipelines. The comments to me, and of course, as you said, they were tourists indicate that the Canadian government or at least one minister is not committed to fully implementing the spirit and intent of the declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples. So that's concerning. The declaration if the spirit of the decoration were adopted, would would give indigenous peoples in Canada fairly significant degree of power. And that power would determine what happens on the land, which may or may not prevent projects that provincial and federal governments believe are in the national interest. So the declaration is pretty threatening. I think to both levels of government and I think probably some Canadians would perceive at the same way. So I think it's just this this clashing of perceived interests. I think that you'll see I think you're gonNA see this relationship deteriorate very quickly and I wouldn't be surprised if we begin to see more local organizing and more people on the streets in the land and really pushing for pushing for that transformative change the liberals promising and haven't yet shown signs of delivery. Now. There's something of a caveat to all this according to critics however, much on drip may complicate governance for states in the end it's ultimately non-binding on them, which may explain the move last November by the government to pass a law that it claims would implement the UN Declaration as the framework for reconciliation and set out process to align and bring provincial laws into harmony with Andrea over time. It was part of a promise new Democrats made when they won power some two years prior in coalition with the BBC Greens an election we parked over back in May twenty seventeen with to BC based journalists Angeles stare to CBC Vancouver, and we'll make ten whose work has appeared on CBC and Discourse Media. We pick things up at the point when I asked how much Andrea mattered with the indigenous electorate in that province. A Huge from the from the people that I talked to you I mean anything that has to do with economic development on the land whether it's diversifying the economy whether it's sustainable development whether it's having more green energy whether it's you know in in the northwest and this decline in the scheme people talk about an economically depressed region were. Has Been in sharp decline There's been a couple of mining projects, but people aren't seeing the jobs that they were promised. So the the New Democratic Party I think stood out for people because they had that promise for respect development on first nations territories, which is something. The drip has a commitment to I know the BBC Green Party and their platform they promised to recognize. First nations as equals in land and resource development. So it's similar, but they don't have that stolid commitment for its part. The BBC liberal says it support partnerships between first nations and industry proponents to improve economic development opportunities which of course, you know if you read the platform of the BBC liberals, it's very focused on jobs and employment opportunities and an industry. Well, it's interesting right I. Mean, we spoke earlier about indigenous not being explicitly addressed however, issues that are of great concern to at least some first nations I'm thinking of sight see the major hydro dam development and kinder- Morgan Trans Mountain pipeline expansion. They seem to be very much on the election agenda throughout that campaign and in a way I mean those are almost like proxy issues as if aboriginal. Issues. became mainstream if you will. Yeah. No I think I think aboriginal people have always been a part of the platforms and especially now because our populations of the fastest growing. NBC But if you read their platforms, you know even if you just do a search for aboriginal first nations, everybody has a platform specifically that pertains to indigenous people and those includes you know areas where there's. Where they're sightsee people are addressing in their platforms, specific areas where indigenous people are important like in in childcare homelessness education. So I think we do see those those issues I think it was interesting that so many indigenous people were being courted by parties. Especially, the liberals in those key writings that were normally end ep that was very new we see. The most indigenous people emily's you know headed to Victoria. Now then we've ever seen in history how many we'll have been elected four I believe and I think there were seven candidates and they were candidates for all three main parties that we've been discussing so far liberal EP and Greens. Yes three from and EP three liberals and one from the Green. It's interesting to note that four indigenous candidates have been elected MLA and well, that's a sign of progress. So as to say. There have been only six in total NBC's history. Wow. So we'll me sometimes especially outside observers make the mistake or the assumption that. Indigenous people tend to vote in a in a block of a monolith when it comes to their politics how did this election potentially give the lie to that idea? It depends where the depends when Sh- I think they're all over the place much like it has with the federal election here you see indigenous votes with the EP UC. Indigenous votes with liberals I don't think this was too much different. It's interesting. You know some of the communities there is a community There's a fellow that I talked to Robert Dennis who's achieve on the island in Banfield who talked about you know he has a they have a proposal for an Ellen g project on in their community and. I think for some of the communities that you know there's an. Alliance that care. Noga up in the North West and I I think for some of the people who do have those interests and do you have those steaks that of course they're gonna go for liberal I think for people who are more focused on things like and there are a lot of people. That's why they voted. They voted because their former foster kids were there. You know they work with they have a socioeconomic position at hand, and so I think for for different people, it's going to mean different things I was surprised at the bold statement weaver made in a interview after the election results initial election results were announced. Christy Clark addressed media first, and then he addressed the media briefly afterward and when asked a question about Ellen G Ellen G, of course, being liquid natural gas. He very plainly said this being Weaver Ellen G is debt. Let's face. The fact is dead and I had to wonder in that moment what first nations communities that have put their eggs, the Ellen g basket, thought of that statement, and we'll think of that statement. Going forward, people do do think an even myself going oh? Is there an indigenous swing vote will know because we're all very individual people. There's two hundred more than two hundred and eighty eight first nations who are distinct distinct languages and communities, and we all have different and within those communities you know we we also don't all think the same though you have to keep all those different factors in mind and deform your. Basis of understanding that that indigenous people are are individuals we are part of communities but that doesn't mean that we're all thinking the same or that we're all on the same page. So so let me ask, will it matter all that? Much to the current trajectory of things like sight see and Kim Morgan Trans, mountain pipeline expansion who gets in? Should we be that cynical or are you hearing people say no, no, a this is. A big deal and it will matter a lot if the liberals are no longer in power well, I'll I'll say that that was one of the questions that I had from speaking to voters people who were voting because they you know a lot of people did vote for Justin. Trudeau. And and for some of those changes implementing Andrea was a big one and to see you know emails coming even with in recent days that. Indicate that they're not going to push forward under ratify it that you know those broken promises You know a lot of people. There's a lot of distrust, and so one of the one of the people that I interviewed had said you know if if this. If you're not voting for somebody at least send a message with your vote what going to the polls and physically people seeing indigenous people there that were here that we matter that our voice matters the platform. Let people know how many of us there are be. The candidates that I've heard from. They're very passionate about what they stand for and a lot of the candidates the indigenous candidates they weren't running on indigenous platforms per se. Right. So that's another thing to consider. I didn't hear the same kind of sort of enamored hope with this provincial election as I did during the federal election. We've seen this before and I don't think it surprises. People think disappoints people and I'll say we knew it. But I don't think it's surprising them that what was said during the election promises that are made the right kind of chords that are hit don't come to after the election. Well as I read on twitter because that's all I do is sit around all day reading twitter People reference how the end ep they were the party in power when gusts US Lake House, which is probably inch history for for a lot of voters but at the different time though I think absolutely. You would see that now I remember the dog shot someone injured military equipment brought in. that. was a crazy time. Get very different time very different times but yeah, you're right I never thought about that. That's an interesting point that did happen. They're also the party that brought the BBC treaty process into being. Like the the jury in the nineties were. Most, closely aligned with indigenous people with indigenous interests and really ultimately in retrospect with the do just using the treaty processes, at example, two treaties tops. Yeah and for the BBC Treaty protest trees are just languishing just waiting for stem to be processed and it's different tone for a relationship right and I think that's always the challenge for BBC and that's just a language that I don't hear since I've been back as we're all relatives we're all treaty people. There is still a very big divide people always think, Oh, you must be treated so badly and it's like well, no, we're just kind of ignored. We're treated with indifference. Cares you know, why should we talk about that? So a lot of people that I talked to during the election they talk about that reality being a reflection of not having treaties. People don't want you to just a fraction of land. You're just selling your land for peanuts, but there's people who think they make a difference in in a relationship between indigenous and non-indigenous people. So all things for the candidates to think about moving forward, right? What kind of relationship or you can have with indigenous people and and then on engineers, people and making decisions moving forward. There's there's a lot of reasons why indigenous people don't vote right? We didn't get the right to vote. NBC? Until nineteen forty nine you know after the Chinese vote after the women got the vote, you know we were not able to participate in politics with against the law people don't have that trust people feel that there's no care for us in the province but you know if you want to be recognized I, think you need to do that. You know we're we're intelligent people. We we have thoughts were in powerful positions. The WE'RE GONNA, see more and more of indigenous people in. Political platforms moving forward. Or measure your closing thoughts I think about a couple of things what kind of a world awaits the indigenous as when they get Victoria and are in the legislature. I wanted to go jodie Wilson rebelled the federal minister when she was elected and that's this. What happens. When your party line on indigenous policy clashes with indigenous lying on that same policy, and possibly it could involve your own people there is. A lack of knowledgeable indigenous people and indigenous issues within the legislature and trying to move trying to move indigenous issues is trying to roll a rock uphill. Hof are have really come and what do indigenous MLA has walk into once they get into the legislature what are they going to do? How are they going to respond? What are they gonNA. Do when they hear catcalls that they don't like when they come up against policy. Issues where indigenous policy toes the party line or it could be and EP party light it could be Green Party line and it's not necessarily consistent with first nations aspirations first, nations views on what that policy should be in the clash. What are they going to think it's going to affect them differently as emily's who happened to be indigenous than other emily's those are my parting classes. You know what great unknown are they walking into? A? And of course, those unknowns got known pretty quick after the EP took power especially on the question of resource development and indigenous peoples because it's not just natural gas that has flared up in BC. Another source of contention has been hydro development and they don't get much bigger than sight. See An unassuming name for a mega project that once built will further ravage and reshape the ecology of that region forever with it the fates of the indigenous peoples. Who Live there and yet believe it or not. There was a point where construction could have been halted by the then new and EP Green coalition government, spoiler they did. But but the Lineman you say I, know, I, know trust us our minds went there to back in May twenty seventeen and by we I mean round table regulars Ken Williams Assistant Professor of drama at the University of Alberta and brought. Pittawan. Aquatic York. University associate professor of Indigenous Studies. End EP government claims it's going to study very seriously sightsee before making its decision in the coming weeks. First, nations in the area are trying to fight it. Adding their two sense is a report from an organization called or at least a sponsored by the social science research. Council are s are see. The name of the study is first nations and hydropower the case of British. Columbia's site C, Dam? Project. Now it it talks about how sightsee is the largest infrastructure project ever undertaken by British. Columbia originally budgeted at eight point three, billion dollars Canadian. It's now estimated at ten billion with further cost overruns likely. It's in its early stages of construction. It's designed to produce eleven hundred megawatts of capacity fifty, one, hundred gigawatt hours per year of energy starting in twenty. Twenty Four. Now over the past eighteen months. According to this study UB C program on Water Governance University of British Columbia. How thick reports on sightsee made a number of submissions to the British Columbia Utilities Commission This article the one we're talking about today. Is Some of those key findings with the goal of contributing to the ongoing public debate on the project and they say that they believe are research feels important gap because the previous provincial government that is the liberals exempted sightsee from review by the British Columbia. Utilities Commission. which regulates B. C hydro this this exemption occurred despite the fact that the federal and provincial governments own environmental joint review panel recommended review by the Utilities Commission. It's not super long. It's it's really worth reading talks about how indigenous communities have repeatedly highlighted how sightsee would severely impact treaty rights by flooding large sections of the Peace River valley, which is already extensively affected by previous hydro development. However, the question of treaty rights infringement was excluded from the. Of the Environmental Review Panel appointed by the provincial and federal governments as we just heard this forced affected treaty eight first nations to pursue the matter in the courts trying to apply for judicial review of a this particular decision. That didn't go very far. Yet, to be an approach in terms of infringements of Aboriginal Rights, Brock, this reminds me a lot of what happened in Muskrat falls in Labrador which was controversial from the start. As you know I, I'm just seeing this pattern and maybe it's backed super entrenched by now where Governments corporations they infringe first. And then apologize later. Yeah that's one of the criticism raised by indigenous people talking about this project among others as well that essentially this is a mega project that British Columbians do not need that the projections provided by the Crown Corporation. ABC Hijo are. In some ways incorrect in terms of forecasting, what the electricity demand will be, and that it's more likely that this project will end up costing money over the long term as there's GonNa be a surplus electricity that VC will have to sell at a loss or even recoup some of their costs. I. This was a an election issue in British Columbia. And it's going to be interesting to see how the minority government in your horrigan plays this as the government is committed to determining whether it's going to proceed with the project or cancel it at first local first nations tried to. Become more involved in terms of the consultations. They also looked at court action as civility is well, and of largely been denied, which is very much. In. A conflict with the federal government and the British. Columbia. Provincial governments stated commitments to the United Nations Declaration on the rights of indigenous people free prior and informed consent for resource developments, and certainly it Kinda flies in the face of a reconciliation rhetoric coming both from the provincial end EP NBC and a Liberal governments in Ottawa. Ken I talked about infringe I apologize later in this report that we're discussing now from the SRC, they actually have a nice line that talks about that as well. It says, indigenous leaders have condemned this bill I litigated during and compensate after approach as failing to honor trees and a betrayal of the honor of the crown as as a government interest or business interests will will create a fit accompli or an inevitability about something. This goes back a long way the Manitoba Hydro flooding the first nations communities there the great whale project back in the seventies that led to. Like a matthew, coon comes rise in national prominence because of how they protested great whale project, which went ahead anyway and late nineteen eighty s we had no Berta River dam project that was going to infringe on the lands of the again in the blackfoot and it went ahead and historically know historically what's going to happen is this damsel be built. It's GonNa Cause Damage at some point commission somewhere down the road maybe unit auditor general's or or a court is gonNA. Finally agree for stations concerns about infringement and say that you have to have consultation like meaningful consultation. Within affected indigenous communities before any major product supposed to go on, this has been hammered at the federal government. And also all developers for close to twenty years. Now it's almost. Like again, it's just going go to the Supreme Court. I think again at some point is. and. A bunch of money and nor apologies and or some sort of settlement is the be made on years down the road. Yeah. But here's the thing though it's one thing to build infrastructure like this. And make some money off of it. There's at least a justification for somebody on in this equation. But as this report points out, there's there's going to be or there is a glut of of energy they're going to have to sell it a loss which brock underscored. How are these things still going ahead brock do you have any insight here? Is it's the construction it's the perception of government acting in order to develop. Jobs and create infrastructure for future jobs, and it is a difficult situation to be sure for the government to project the expected lifespan for this site. C Dam is one hundred years and so for them to try to project even ten fifteen years ahead, what the electricity needs for the province will be what the market's going to be a British Columbia the last year. In some ways gambled on natural gas and sale with the attempt to create a new resource based economy in northern BC based on natural gas, and then prices dropped and the investment didn't really show up and I think that's part of the reason why previous government though is Christy Clark really was pushing hard for site see go ahead as an alternative to the natural gas. You know it's in the way we are in the way of this development and the only way is. is they got to start accepting that this I in digits concerns are legitimate concern and I know I say that way but that's something. That is like it's obviously not. We are obviously not a concern. They are just someone who has to be dealt with sue some regulatory commission or some sort of. Legal. Maneuvering and then development habits. And we page. or so I guess really what's going on right now one assumes is some kind of political calculus. It's not a question of whether whether the end EP will offend anybody or lose friends it. They just have to decide which friends CAN WE AFFORD TO LOSE MOST YUP But but once again, indigenous peoples are Kinda just left on the sidelines waiting to see dynamics play. Oh, where decisions are made. Hearing that again, I'm reminded of just how complicated the settlers side of the equation and get but frankly so can the indigenous side as here in this February twenty seventeen pairings of Brock Mitch on how the dynamics of hereditary systems of governance factored in to these thorny debates resources in another part of what we now call BBC. Our next topic is based in British Columbia but at its heart, it's a story playing out in some form or fashion within indigenous communities across the country. One that embodies a key challenge facing many first nations, how to practically an act and enabled traditional indigenous forms of governance especially when they've been marginalized for so long by outside forces in favor of Indian. Act Band Councils. Now meets the story came to our attention via the globe in Mail in an article entitled Hereditary Tribal Chiefs Matriarchs Challenge Pacific Northwest L. N. G. Critic it's lead paragraph reads as follows. A group of more than twenty hereditary chiefs and Matriarchs in the luck Williams first nation is crying foul over an aboriginal leader whose battle against A. B.. C.. Liquefied Natural Gas project includes a lawsuit. What would you add to help our listeners understand the basic conflict here including distance battle over over natural resource extraction that if it didn't quite precipitate this internal conflicts certainly inflamed, it will spark ignited if memory serves me correctly honor about. Close to the summer of Twenty fifteen if not, the summer of two, thousand, fifteen years ago. That's when. The protest camp went up. Proposal. Project is planned to be built. I think it's called blue. Island and there was a member of the first nation who set up a protest camp at the site that summer. He was raising among other things environmental and cultural concerns impacts actually that the. The Ellen G project would have in that part of the tribes, traditional territories and The matter has gone or his yes. Later to go to court. she is a member of the first nation he holds. Or says, he holds a hereditary title within one of the houses in the first nation. Is You've got another group headed by another man from the same first nation who says stop? He's not who he says he is. He doesn't speak for the nation. He doesn't speak for our house there lies schism we're talking about if you will one camp headed by Donald Wesley on the one side and then on the other Carl Sampson senior. and to be perfectly honest by interest in this story was not to kind of try and adjudicate these competing claims. Obviously, it's not our place to do so we won't go there, but that actually segues to the point I do want to discuss, and that is, how is it that members of an indigenous people engaged in what amounts to an internal dispute? have found themselves turning to an external body like courts to work things out. You have in some cases competing or complementary governance system certainly for how. People, you'll have a traditional longhouse in the band council in some cases working together on specific issues and others in quite similar sort of situations where they they may disagree on on of course of action for their communities. This has also happened for bake people the Roseau River community in southern Manitoba comes to mind where there is a traditional government alongside aband- council government. The key issue here is a lot of these tensions would be dealt with outside of public scrutiny at least in terms of the globe in Mail, they're taking these claims of authority to speak on behalf of the community or act on behalf of the community and actually putting them before federal court. You know this wouldn't be the first time that a nation has turned to the courts to. Settle, a traditional matter for a tribal matter. I'm sure there are internal processes with respect to their tribal laws that they could resort to, but instead the turn to the court. So it doesn't surprise. We did in this matter, but I'm sure it's not gonNa Lausd that the tribe is resorted to turning to the courts. The one part I agree that makes it challenging here. In this particular instance, there's a huge amount of potential investment and at play certain hereditary leaders are aligning themselves now with. The cooperation with the Pacific Northwest Helen g group and the federal government and the provincial government as a way of trying to strike down. Donnie Wesley. In his groups attempt to block the development. So I again, normally, the stakes in terms of tension in the community would probably not reach this height if not for the enormous potential investment that the terminal would represent for the province also for the country. It's good in a sense. And I careful how I say that Because it took an issue like this to awaken if I can say, don't the. Law Hereditary title to to awaken assert himself whether that says they fall on one side of the issue or the other but I'm seeing more and more communities where the traditional lawn traditional people people with traditional title hereditary title. Are beginning to cert- themselves. Yeah. I mean lest anyone think that there's an automatic equation of hereditary governance. With an anti pipeline agenda or an anti resource extraction agenda that that's clearly not the case here although I think a lot of people do kind of make that equation don't they. They do it again, the the matters become you know, but a lot of different things including this but what are the incentives that are being provided to these hereditary chiefs to? Criticize Mr Wesley and essentially make Kim seem as illegitimate as spokesperson and a representative of his nation. So again, this is I, think it's a very fluid. Situation and I I actually feel a lot of. Sympathy for Mr Wesley in terms of trying to be a guardian essentially for the environmental protection of this of legal island and the and the banks around. And yet, he's going to be coming under tremendous pressure where he seeing his own community Turning on him and joining with the federal government, the provincial government and the corporation to attack his attempt to protect that area, and that's where I think really the interesting conversations be happening at the community level about moral authority who at rests with whether it's with the elected band council chiefs with the traditional chiefs and whether they have received like respective of jurisdiction that the community accepts and how those are challenged when you have billions of dollars at play, and again, that's why I keep coming back to what really thrust this issue into into the into the public mind is concerned overbuilding eleven billion dollar Liquefaction terminal at. On this we will island. Money is a big issue here if not the linchpin issue you shake. In front of a community that suffering from abject poverty edited going to upset the social order that was your the way things were. The. Other thing I wanted to mention was that this issue is recent. But it doesn't surprise me that this come up this will probably come up again because number one the luck. Williams. Aren't the only first nation NBC that are buying for an L. N. G. project or vying for some piece of Ellen G project. There are others that are in the queue and this will likely come up again you often hear in situations like this that they appear demise that phrase divide and conquer. Do. You think that is here. Know, it's not like the divide and conquer issue. is something that was colonial and foreign and brought here and foisted upon us. that it was something new. I, think we divided and conquered in amongst ourselves long before the colonial Scott here having said this your insofar as the definition of a divide and conquer issue. This certainly fits that bill that issue your the way that it was sold you know it was going to be the best thing since sliced bread communities we're going to be a wash and resources jobs we're going to be plentiful there was gonna be chicken in every pot and a car in every garage. I think people foresaw but didn't talk about. The strife that would cause. Strife indeed though that no doubt feels like an understatement for those who went through what took place in January of Twenty nineteen when that first rcmp took place against a with SOA to campsite set up to resist the further construction of pipeline owned by the coastal. Gasoline. Corporation. A grassroots effort led by a cohort of hereditary chiefs. They're modest camp was overwhelmed by the paramilitary actions of the state taken to enforce an injunction obtained by the company. Actions are roundtable. Try their best to put in context at the time including Ken. Williams. Kim Tall Bear, associate professor of Native Studies at the University of Alberta and Candice Call US associate professor in the Institute for Critical. Indigenous Studies and the School of journalism writing and media at UB see. Candice where two things currently stand and what other information do people need to know. In order for them to to properly put this all in context. Without, going back through. Well, it's not that long actually I mean, that's the truth right? It's It's really believe eighteen hundreds when you start seeing settlers come to British Columbia and instead of continue to make treaties are such as they were across the rest of Cannibal. You can look at the number treaties and they stop basically at the border of what's more British Columbia a little bit of tree goes into the north. That's really the bigger context for British Columbia and there have been many court cases that have come out of the sea that have supported in business title and rights and said that treaties need to be married One of the most important is Doug. Began in Nineteen eighty-four when it involved to get signed on with. People who are for stations right next to each other it's important for two reasons one, the Supreme Court did end up affirming indigenous title and rights and need to make a treaty but also brought in oral history as an important form of evidence on end part of that oil history was explaining how land was. Divided, according to houses and clancey can look back and all of those documents and they would help you understand what's happened. In the last few days here in what so attained territory where there is a to different clans who have been defending a part of their territory but also reoccupying, it's not a potent -instinians. A lot of people have been have been careful about saying this is this is not these are not protestors user people actually exercising their indigenous right when that is you know has been reaffirmed by the courts. So this pipeline you know It looks like the elected chiefs had signed onto the pipeline by the hereditary chiefs who are very much presence in food in with certain territory do not support the pipeline and You know the the people who are at a very important juncture on the pipeline. This area is called the house in. STOUGHTON is how a lot of people say but I've learned from looking at Angeles Jarrett's twitter video that is actually UNICEF. Dodd in that Yuna, started house has set up at long term encampment there in. So this week we really saw it come to the fore where. Are Supe- came in and Allen Chidren move at least one of the checkpoints arrested fourteen people eventually the RCMP and the hereditary chiefs from what sites in hereditary chiefs negotiated. For some kind of or when call it a truce. But you know the RC NPR understanding down this is not Is Not an end to what is happening. There's going to be I think more negotiation needed. That court case, Doug, which is so huge in terms of its spillover effects. Coup were the people who were litigating. Was it the elected councils? No, it was the hereditary chiefs, the same type or if not the exact same group who are leading this fight now. So the story is almost I think in in many ways a microcosm. For where we where we've come in this relationship. Yeah I mean, it's powerful. Good. It's happy here where you know welcoming relief making indigenous law like what's so attend long at San Law and practices and clan systems and houses under like that is all very legible like I said you could. You know dive back into Duncan move and figure out. What the system is that governs what so in practices in? Terry chiefs are a well-defined. They were the ones who brought the case before the Supreme Court so that this would be happening in this territory is, is just like a a moment huge history of. The funniest. You have have any of you. Ever I'm sure you have candidate to step back and said. Could there be a more colonial name for province than British Columbia. You've gotten the British part, right but then you've got combat which I presume is named after Columbus but So it's just like what anyway know it's also one of the most densely populated and there's eleven different language groups in what's now British Columbia I mean because you know the the coastal area had was very densely populated and you know there's still very robust for stations along there but also through the. Interior you know this is a province that was rich in in people and resources so that it would not have treaties that it will have this name British Columbia, pretty thick I mean BC. As a unified jurisdiction is is a false jurisdiction in terms of all the diversity just basically collapses away the whole overriding issue. What sort of grounds all of this is, is that the assumption of ownership on the Canadian State enforces these like incredibly complex societies and you know try to educate gains about the fact that there's is there's a form of governance that still exists in territory within Canada that predates I don't know how far can we go back like it predates Vikings at predates the royal family in Great Britain, which that has been the comparison as well that I've seen on media. Tying into the assumption of ownership. The assumption that this is that this is Canadian Land Damn Canada. Has the right to do it, and it's also like the assumption that we are also going to be extinct. That we would not here anymore. They carnell tickets coming home to roost. It's a reminder that the colonial arrogance that was at play when by this point in the westward expansion. Of Of what became Canada? They felt what? Why do we need to make a treaty with disappearing people's right I mean that if you're looking for a thread through all of Canada's early policy The knock on effects of which were living with today is that the assumption was we were going to disappear. We're going to be washed away over the dam. Indians just won't die go away. So inconvenient. Yeah. I was interested in I. Think you you in Scott to this a little bit in the difference between hereditary chiefs and elected band councils. We don't really have that formal division of traditional and elected governance in tribes. Last, we have certainly traditional people in community that are cultural leaders and might have lineage among traditional chiefs, but it's not it sounds like it's more formal appears. So that's that's really interesting to me. But. We certainly have the same kinds of. Debates within our communities. We might have elected tribal leaders who are really interested in institution building in bringing economic resources to the tribal community making decisions that are more collaborative with resource extraction than we would agree with right so that that's interesting to me. So the hereditary chiefs system is not in all nations in BC it's it's really very prominent among Northwest Coast Som- along the southern coast is not many of these systems in the interior first nations. The way it works is through the nation is divided into clans and then the clan have houses and. The chiefs are from lines of chiefs and They are tasked with carrying for the land and caring for the people in their clowning in their house and a lot of the the governance structure is undertaken with the fee system right alongside. So the pot latch is away for alliances to be made for wealthy redistributed but also for these forms of governance for names to be passed on names, which are a part of the hereditary system as well. Also, if you were at chief, you would inherit on the name of an older chief who had passed on you You would inherit the responsibility. You know that that's the big thing. Right? Is really about responsibility on lake. Say. Monarchs in Europe words about wealth and so what happened when Indian Act came in is than a voting system came into place and Indian. Achieves have generally coexisted with a hereditary system mean you know it's really different. Everywhere. In terms of how good a shape, the hereditary system is in how strong and influential it is you know most INDIANAP- chiefs don't also have hereditary. Chief and so sometimes, an attorney chiefs have also ran for election I mean that's happened in in many first nations and that's always really interesting right in BC. What they did is they really learn for what happened in the rest of the country in the south in the united. States and so what they did is they check first nations in divided them into as many barnes is they possibly could, and so then you have these Indian act band chiefs. are still part of the same language group are still part of the same for station or even still part of the same heard Terry governance structure but basically, it's like superimpose different structure according to however the Indian agent decided that the bounds should be divided just just prior to their disappearances they get washed away by the superior Canadian civilization, of course. My husband is from the insult comic nation. They were considered the really contentious people there in the Interior sailors. So from around the suspension bridge merits area and they divided them into thirteen bans like the smaller, the better because then they could play off of each other, they could manage them separately. So it's really about making things legible making manage borough ends potentially being able to play off each other. Before I hadn't conquer what? There are many reasons underlying the opposition to resource development. One that may be less discussed than it should is the threat posed by so-called man camps, a long standing and common feature of all construction sites whatever the resource or mega project involved a topic I unearthed with. Ken and Brock back in September of two, thousand eighteen. Let's begin this week's program in northern Manitoba Site, extensive hydroelectric development, and correspondingly the site of extensive controversy. Not least a recently released report by the province's Clean Environment Commission which contains allegations at construction of at least one of these dams coincided with years of sexual and physical abuse against the local residents of Fox. Cremation abuse said to be perpetrated in the nineteen sixties by some of the literally thousands of outside mostly male workers brought in to construct the mega. Project and you know brock despite the efforts to promote hydro as clean green source of renewable energy. I think it's pretty clear from an indigenous perspective that that the imposition of such hydro dams in their territories have been devastating ecologically to say the least but I'm not so sure that this aspect the social impacts have been so publicly and broadly discussed. And again most of the news coverage is focusing on this one community and this one dam and I wonder what we would find if we dug deeply into most if not all hydro-dams, your thoughts and all. This is something that's been coming up most recently around pipeline construction and other resource extraction projects. The phrase I've seen refers to man camps and specifically what happens to communities. When there's an influx of workers for whether it's mining or again my oil and gas work. And a lot of these men are single away from or away from their families and I mean the potential for Problems to develop. Concert arise through drinking, and in the specific report you mentioned they talk about. Issues arising where. people were coming into the community in abusing community members, attacking men attacking women treating children discriminating against them when you do have outsiders come in on mass and if they're coming in without a lot of. Respect, or understanding about the indigenous peoples of that area. It seems that these types of occurrences would be frequent sadly and continue to the present day Ken where does your mind go with this story? I know from my time when I was still working with the average of people's television network I did a story about the Churchill River system and that damn was right down the river like you throw a rock and you could hit the Sandy Bay community in the Sandy Bay first nation and the damn wreak havoc with the environments and they had no control when that dam was going to release water or hold water and affected their drinking water and affected their fishing. Heavily affected their hunting, and so it's just these everything that that this project involves on the have no local indigenous consideration. Of course, leads many different types of abuse and you know you have economic abuse, of course, sexual abuse, and if you just look down upon people who are your neighbors and you create a stressful situation particularly with man camps, it's just inevitable. That's that's proven. Wasn't there poster going around about the transplant pipelines in the worries but the man Kam Coming in. I think justified. Now does it go without saying that the bulk of these workers are non-indigenous at bet you the vast majority of them were non local just like they weren't substantial. You know it really does cement links between ecological and social disruption and destruction by an outside force I mean four thousand, Manitoba Hydro, workers, I mean that's relative to a few hundred folks in in in the region it it really paints a disturbing picture. Yeah. For me that one of the first times that I've heard that phrase man camp in relation to of violence or exploitation of of women girls as really been. As part of the broader social movement around missing murdered indigenous women and girls. So I think they've been very effective in making that connection and this is well documented. Historically, we can take back to its especially parent in instances where there's been some kind of resource rush look I'm thinking in terms of mining in northern Canada or anywhere with the certainly in places like Yukon. Northwest Territories really across across Canada. If there was a discovery, you would have prospectors move in and absolutely there were lots of instances of abuses against a local indigenous communities and his Ken mentioned earlier. Most of the time indigenous peoples were not participants in whatever. Sort of economic prosperity followed from that resource rush intend very much. The opposite tendency was for them to be driven away in order to allow settlers to monopolize whatever that new resource would be and I, I think in terms of the approach that hydro has had in the north, it has been in many ways a similar approach where they're the, we've heard many instances of this where you have these massive hydro projects set up. And then local indigenous communities aren't even connected to the grid. So they don't even benefit from the very basic resource that's being exploited there, which is the creation of electricity that stuff for the ship South the phrase man camp is something that has has been very powerful for me in terms of focusing. On how indigenous people are specifically exploited. When these are resource extraction projects moving. There's a phrase I've heard an IT's coming to mind definitely hearing both of you speak about how essentially you know the northern hinterland quote unquote is rendered a sacrifice zone to the benefit of people who live in the city. So they can have power, they can have water they can have all the the raw material that's extracted from indigenous lands converted into all the things that that city people enjoy. And then we you know the thing we have to really come to grips with is this something they know is going to happen in other words. Do they know the exploitation of resources expectations of people around him or like they want to paint this as just unhappy incident I. Think we are on the verge hopefully finally looking at this and seeing that the. That, the exploitation of resources without adequate input local indigenous population is another act of genocide. Thus concludes the first half of our longer look at the bigger picture of resource resistance as seen through the battle lines drawn within wet SOHAN territory. In partout will revisit the return of RCMP this past February the Canada wide blockades and rallies in its wake and how media frames worked to contain audiences understanding of it all. Thanks for listening to this summer twenty twenty edition of Media Indigenous Episode Two hundred, and twenty, two edited and produced by your host. Rick Harp. Thanks as well to everyone who appeared on this week's retrospective. They care everyone. Say. Rid of Commons music. This episode includes headway by angle time by Petro, Santiago time to go home by anonymous four, twenty habit binoche term or T. R. M one march day by smaller tied and Aurora by Kevin Hart. Links to all of these works maybe found in our show notes.

Canada BC BBC federal government liberals Ken Williams Brock Mitch British Columbia Indigenous Studies Canadian government Supreme Court United Nations Ellen g NBC Columbia UN Ken twitter
Ep. 197: Gauging the Gatekeepers

MEDIA INDIGENA : Indigenous current affairs

47:07 min | 1 year ago

Ep. 197: Gauging the Gatekeepers

"Hello I'm Richard. From Winnipeg this media and digital episode one ninety seven on this week's roundtable gauging the gatekeepers tired of how the media covered it's event in recent years and all indigenous basketball tournament in BC has decided. It's had enough with one exception. A radio station. That broadcasts games live other reporters hoping to cover the denied access. Meanwhile a Toronto playwright went out of her way to discourage non-indigenous critics from reviewing an indigenous work. There's the rub all right in a moment. We'll discuss what these two attempts to influence. Who says what about whom May or may not have in common but first we want to thank our newest supporters support that comes in multiple forms for example by check. That's what Kimberly did to the tune of one hundred and twenty dollars adding this note. Dear Rick Panelists thank you for another year of Media and digital your discussions continue to educate and push my thinking time and willingness to share your knowledge and perspectives are much appreciated looking forward to episodes in twenty twenty gratefully Kim a white settlers from tree for territory. Thank you Kim. We're also grateful to our continuing support from people on patron including the newest patrons Christian at five dollars and bridget at ten meanwhile using our interact e transfer option. Mary Jane Sent US two hundred and fifty dollars. Adding thank you for the great podcast. Thank you for the Great Contribution. And we've had a number of contributions via pay pal to acknowledge trevor sending US five dollars. Michelle Andrea sending US ten dollars Marjorie Eighteen Mary and James sending US twenty dollars respectively and thirty dollars via Giulia ads. Thanks for the wonderful show. Thank all of you for the wonderful vote of support for our work to learn how you can join their ranks head over to media digital dot com where you click the pink support is by and back at the round table this week are in Edmonton. It's Ken Williams. This is the professor at the University of Elbert is department of Drama Kenneth. Eric Guy was hanging there too long. I just couldn't live it all right man to think we were hearst. This okay added Toronto. It's associate professor of indigenous studies at York University brought to WanNa Quad Brock. Hello guys all right hanging around. I'M GONNA leave that in there and so Quite the pair of stories this week That wasn't the intent but just sort of emerged around the same time and each with clearly different starting points and yet on the surface anyway. Similar motivations that is attempts to arguably restrict speech or at least restrict. Who GETS TO SPEAK? And you know. I put in quotation marks around restrict. You know as I'm sure we'll get into Similarities may be deceiving once we Scratch the surface so get your claws. Ready Gentlemen let's start in BC according to a February seventh report by CBS's Angeles starret first nations basketball players. Say they feel silenced. After learning most media outlets are banned from covering the long running all native basketball tournament in Prince Rupert B C Following critical news coverage of the Games now underway as we speak play started February tenth. We'll wrap up on the sixteenth. It's an event that began in nineteen sixty in the north coast community and features dozens of men and women's teams and thousands of players and fans from across British Columbia now in previous years of variety of media. Got To cover those games not so this year citing concerns that coverage has been to political and us to negative organizers of banned all but one outlet cf and are an indigenous radio station based in terrace. B C and they've been the exclusive broadcast rights holders for a real long time brock. What do you make of all this? I mean you have kids in sport right. Sport is supposed to be apolitical. It's supposed to be the one the one zone of life where you know we just get to enjoy the game man. How yeah I mean I guess my my my first impression was that Being a community regional provincial recreational event. I didn't really see the decision to not allow median to necessarily be A A significant issue but the hearing from some of the athletes who attend that. They were Disappointed or frustrated by that decision. I can see how it it might be a concern for in terms of even like the long term success of the tournament because if the concerns from the previous year which I remember talking with you about was the critique with one particular athlete a not being allowed to to participate and how that a lot of critical attention to the tournament itself. You're talking about the haitian-born basketball player. Who had been adopted into a family but not allowed to play. Yeah because the tournament decided well if you're not connected by blood quote unquote that they drew the line at that right and that seems to be what they were trying to avoid with his political stances that they would just focus on basketball and have the one. I guess radio station covered the event. So I I I can. I guess I don't know how to how to come around to this. I will like when I'm thinking of like media blackout right now The the thing that's really on my mind is what's happening in northern BC. Not and I don't mean Prince Rupert. It's Not At this basketball tournament. It's what the RCMP. Exclusion Zone with wet Sullivan. And I know that's something you talked about with candace and Kim recently as well but I guess this is one of those situations where I i. Don't want to dismiss anyone's feelings. But I this isn't sparking outrage with me. Does that make sense while it makes sense to you I? I'm hoping it makes sense to you as well like I if I I do think like the I can see how how. This unfolded right But in terms of like my impressions on it. I I don't I guess. I don't really have a strong opinion on it either way being a recreational basketball tournament. I it's it seems kind of Did you just switch or have an empty net? Are you air balling brock? Actually I I sorta that that is that is a fair. I but again like I. I don't know maybe can can bring some more drama to this story. I just I guess what? I'm trying to save a hard time. Getting really riled up about this with in terms of the scale of other things going on right now fair enough however I mean the the example. You just cited. I mean they arguably active politically by overriding. What some people feel absolutely legitimate way to to bring people into kinship with each other they take money from Ellen g from resource companies. They don't have to take that money. I mean you could argue that. There's nothing political about it. And to sort of pretend otherwise is to. I don't know just just sorta look the other way on the other hand. The international no less than the International Olympic Committee has just recently said that any athlete at this. Summer's Tokyo Games. Who engages in any form of political religious or ethnic demonstrations on the podium for example kneeling like Colin Kaepernick? You know did famously. Or infamously at the. Nfl has been basically banned for it Officially or otherwise. If you do that you'll be forbidden. Did for the opening and closing ceremonies so so the only the only political actor lots to do at the Olympics actually like standard salute your flag. That's not political at all can come on. Geez that's not political at all Yeah exactly Stanislav your plaque patriotism cheese. Yes Oh no political acts so they they're going to ban national anthems to and National Symbols as well. There's nothing political there I mean. Can you not to paint you with a cliche brush? But I mean what are Sports By this point even at that level if not the actual in some respects you wanna be not performance. We talk about Performance on the stage we talk about performance on the ice or the court or whatever I mean in some ways doesn't that give us a hint that In a Lotta ways I mean sport is cultural. It is Seattle. It is it and us. It's it's justice eligible and just as right that politics enter the into the fray. I mean when hasn't sport been political? Well that's yeah I don't ever believe. Politics has never been a excluded from sports. You know as much as they try and save up great ideal coming together in peace. You know friendship right and you know sport. Binding us I you know I it was. It was like how we fought the Cold War that was our expression of it was You know the Russians versus the Americans East Germans versus you know everybody else. It was definitely full of that. Patriotism and shining trying to lift a torch about what's political or cultural system was better. There's there's no doubt about that was You know when when we played Russia in any number of hockey series is always about who was better like an. It wasn't just like Canada's as a team. Canada story as a nation that has a system that develops hockey players and has a culture that developed like no. It was all about how we were better than them. Because we had a different political system. Now this this attempt to kind of de-politicize the tournament failed pretty quickly From what I understand. I saw a picture of one team all women's team. They had a read a handprint painted on their face. Overtop their mouth to connote solidarity with missing and murdered. Indigenous women and girls That's something I've seen on a number of athletes. In fact there's a runner in the United States who does that every in in tribute to to a relative. So you know I'm just. I'm having a hard time imagining if there was let's say Although it's of course is this might be comparing apples and oranges because this is an all indigenous tournament But there are times where We've heard of indigenous players being Catcalled racial epithets thrown at them. I mean we would not think. Oh we can't cover that because that's not technically having anything to with sticks pox or goals or deeks or breakaways right so I mean if we have to cover it then doesn't follow them. We have to cover it everywhere brock. Sorry I don't follow your question there right so if if a player is treated in. We don't thought the question you. I thought the question you originally asking me was. What is my impression of the organizers trying to have just a single media covered yeah and if if that's the question I and again not having ever attended this tournament and not knowing exactly what they're trying to Ford in terms of Attributed to what happened previously with the case you mentioned of the the one athlete Not being allowed to participate in how that seemed to draw criticism. I didn't interpret it necessarily as them trying to Thwart Athletes themselves wanting to make solidarity statements with Whatsoever ten or with as you mentioned the example of among I w g the the inquiries work or the the broader movement. I don't know I I did miss. I did Miss Speak. I mean but that was covered. I the only reason I know about that is because he was. It was a tweet by Angeles Derek. So in that sense it did get covered right So yeah I mean Yeah I kinda mixing The the issue here And I guess. The question is should organizers of sport. Be Allowed to to ban media folks. It's a cover anything but what it takes place on the court. I guess I'm having trouble trying to say yes or no to either one of those because it's like let me former thought here talking. Just do another example here. Maybe we can get to this somehow by doing something that you and I were somewhat either directly or ten gently in involved in Remember when Abe T. N. broadcast the North American Indigenous Games? The first time we do that as a network all right and they gave it to the news department to do it right. The problem was no one in the department was really Sportsperson sports journalist as well as We didn't have the resources or the technical in our. You know larger ability to do like a clean feed direct a live to air broadcasting any event. So what we were what happened. Was You released a bunch of journalists who had unlimited access to the to the athletes and journalists as journalists they went in and covered stories right now some of them some of them were kind of Ross stories about this and how but member there was at that boxing story but how everyone was getting these metals because no one else was showing up to compete against them. And the organizers. Were really upset that this happened and it was because there was sort of it was definitely miscommunication. Going on between the network and the organizers of the north of the North American indigenous games because I think they were expecting us to go in there and just broadcast whereas these people who are reporters were doing their jobs as reporters. They found interesting stories that they felt needed to be covered now and they were. They were covered in broadcast now. Why is this relate to this? Because they beat navy was having trouble getting any kind of media interest from anybody and we were the the first broadcaster of television and so it seemed like a good fit but there was again sort of a cultural misfit because we ab tm provided reporters and not sports people not broadcast not sports broadcasters. So I think in one sense because sports tends to have that mutual broadcasting relationship with the radio and television networks that they tend to think that they can go they can control all the media who access the event like this case got an indigenous radio station that has the broadcast rights to the Games. But maybe they're seeing that as as a way to extend that no other media's allowed on site is what I'm suspecting they're doing yet because NHL is only broadcast news sports net now or something like that and remember when CBC was the sole broadcaster of the Cana but they never precluded Like some other network picking up a news story about hockey if it was happening you know what I mean like that can that can. What does block it blocks you access to a site. But it doesn't block access to the stories if people want to other stories well. I was captivated by the story of the tournament. Banning a player because they made a determination that this person wasn't eligible they weren't indigenous in there is Something to note and the story. The most recent story definitely notes. It is that the head of the organizing committee Peter hogging is non indigenous so the optics of that at the very least are interesting and so it's an overlap between the game who gets the play and something quite political self determination of identity and and so. I don't know I guess. The open question is are these kind of contracts and corporate arrangements with regards to broadcast rights being used as kind of shield for Exempting a cultural institution from from scrutiny. And get the sense. None of us have a definitive answer. But I think it's important. I think it's important or you know maybe have bigger fish to fry in the scheme of things of what's going on now but you got to think that so it is definitely on on people's minds there and how that will manifest and determine we'll actually those those women. I mentioned earlier. The ones who had the red hand paint on the face. Also wearing t-shirts saying what's so attend strong. So why don't we just awkwardly slide then to the next time and compare and contrast unless you have more to Saybrook? I don't know I'm ready for the new dance. Move the new dance move. So recently came across my radar. Notorial from a arts reviewer from the Globe and Mail by the name of J Kelly struck and The headline of the op-ed was how should media respond when an artist limits reviews to critics who are indigenous black and people of Color. And I'll just read a little bit of an expert by way of a by way of introduction. It's a basic principle of mainstream cultural journalism. That artists should not pick which critic's review them but should artists be allowed to choose which color of critic? Reviews Them. That's the hot potato. Throw into all the Toronto newspapers magazines and online outlets that cover theater this week by your land. L. An up and coming into snobby and South Asian playwright and performer on Tuesday night. Her play bug which had a short run in two thousand eighteen at the festival. recently opened for a two week. Run at Okay how do you say that name theater? Pass morale announcer underpass Mirai. Okay which recently opened for two week run at Ti Quick Pass Mirai Feeder Pass Marai Deandra p theater to a two of the three. Words are French. I know all of them be not this long running Canadian theatre institution. You better keep this part. Yeah let's just keep all let's just do warts and all if we're going to say sports tournaments should be wide open and we'll do that with US okay. So it's opening for a two week. Run AT THEATRE PASS. Marai but only certain critics have been invited. Ken Can you fill that out now? And for full disclosure. I am lendable. Banal is a colleague in a friend. Oko yet so if anyone wants to accuse me a bias I can. I Will Not Dispute. I am biased. Feeder Pass Mariah. And of course native Earth Performing Arts the other two co-producing theaters and I know the I know everyone involved their personally as well. So they're all friends and colleagues so yes. I'M GONNA lay down on my cards openly. Everyone knows where I'm coming from Having said that Let's let's clear a couple of misconceptions up one of the things that's been floating around and I know you didn't mention this in your intro. But one of the things that seems to be coming out of this is that a sense that she's banning right banning white critics and she's not banning anybody know what she has done is she's Asked it is a request that the if you are going to review her play please send a black indigenous person of color to do so and the other thing too but the invite is. Is that what it's going to mean? Is that though if you're going to send like killing start is the reviewer for the Global Mail as well and. Who's not at all at all? No not one not even a drop. But he'll just have to buys on ticket because normally what happens with the invite is given a free ticket. You're giving a press pack given access in media call information like that usually giving pictures and if you're if you're Tv broadcaster or TV news agency given video. Okay you know. There's a certain amount of involve the invite and so it's not that you're not allowed to go. It's just that they're not in not in not being invited to go to come. And it's a request see simply request The thing the reason why she's doing this and it's it's it's she's not the one who came up the idea. I actually Kim Cyclic Harvey is a theater artists. Who have worked with as well as also another friend started this kind of movement or like this kind of political thought within indigenous theatre. Because she was saying they weren't getting it. People who are not indigenous. Or you know. Didn't have the touchstones to follow. What indigenous people were saying in the art and thus the the white critics specifically would dismiss it. Completely we don't understand it therefore it doesn't make sense therefore it's bat and that was what you know the call the colonial gays or the way it was that you know these were people who just were dismissing important work. Because they didn't understand it and it happens has happened over and over again and Just the sense of we want people who are going to write and create the critical thought and stuff that is going to be like permanently out there because the Internet to be people who understand where this work is coming from and the best kind of comparison I can make is. You wouldn't send someone who didn't understand opera to review opera and if they sat there and listened to lead to know what's going on but it was okay didn't fall asleep you'd be you know people would rise up and go wisest person writing about it. But his but they're fine with white people going you know this play with some elements that were primitive head. People were wearing furs and they. They sang funny. You know it's sort of been capsulated at briefly. What you know with these kind of reviewers like so. This is where it's coming from and it's time for the artist. Say We if we want good critical feedback we want. We want knowledgeable critics. I what you're taking all this Brooke. Oh Yeah I mean. Ken shared the vice piece by the playwright just before our conversation. I thought she really clarified that. It wasn't an attempt to avoid a negative critique. She's quite up front that she would actually invite that but it was exactly as Ken just explained a concern of people. Not even being in a position. I should say critics. Not even being in a position to be able to understand it in order to provide and Affair an insightful review of the play. So yeah I think there's a lot of reasons. Why are her invitation or I should say her. Targeted invitation should generate some critical reflexive reconsideration and then that was what the globe in. Mail piece did is at one point The Globe author is looking back on previous reviews and noting with some regret that there were times that that there hadn't abandoned a fair assessment of of a play. So I thought the point was really well-taken and it's interesting that whole gatekeeper role which may be seeing its twilight in the larger culture so The funny thing is in the past yes. A good or bad review could make all the difference for a Theater Company. But the but the call him talks about how theater comes used to live in of critics. Now not so much. So in some ways this is a reflection of of that point in where the artistic community out as well And I have to say I'll stick with you. Brock I mean. Is there any part of you? That feels similar sentiments. When you hear some of the things non-indigenous political commentators are saying about. What's so it did. I mean yes I especially when I look at an. I try to look at a range of of media and I've like just glancing at the National Post yesterday. There were two columnists that were both using the the rule of law. Billy club suggest. Make the claim that any sort of indigenous resistance should just be bulldozed and The sooner the better and so yeah I mean absolutely. I think that there's these situations where there's a I'd say a failure even to attempt to engage the other the other side of an issue and I I mean it makes complete sense that this would happen in the arts world as well as it happens in the political economy as well but I mean if people are entitled to their opinion. Aren't they entitled to have an ignorant opinion? Yeah wasn't academic that's essentially what I'm trying to Challenge that that. Just acceptance of ignorance as a point of view and and that's the thing is that they come at this with a perspective of That it's not an ignorant opinion right. That's the part where it gets kind of going is that they come at eyemouth each person. I understand theater and therefore you're in this house. Were all the same. We all have the same background and I I can. I can express my point of view however I have very specific examples. A friend of mine. terror Bagan Was part of a cycle of plays that were produced in this historical location. Toronto call the mill and the reviewer completely screwed up the nation from which characters came from. She called them anyway. It's an Enu because if those two things were interchangeable the characters were here on when dot. When I read the reviewer's this is absolutely gulling like these people are are just not getting it. How come you allow this to happen if that if you if you're doing that badly then you you shouldn't be reviewing and this is back when they still had a lot of influence and could kill ticket sales and that's not the that was not the worst of the of the kind of really harsh reviews at she received that for felt were like from coming from a critical and cultural misunderstanding? Of what the work was. And if you know it's I I again. It's like expertise of anything you go to people who know people who know what they're doing what they're talking about. You wouldn't go. You wouldn't ask me for financial advisers. Put it that way. Let's really example right A. You wouldn't ask me to for stock. Tips say Ken said we should do this. I think he's he's gone to something right and like no. That'd be the worst thing you could do but if I went out going say hey I'm a stock tip adviser and started writing a column. I got paid to do it by major newspaper and people Went and followed my tips and got harmed that I can say well. It's just my opinion but it's funny. I mean this all seems pretty straightforward to me and and and yet I I can't help but slip back out side of the Artistic Realm Right. May- maybe I'm making the same mistake Decried by others in the in the context of sports. But it's just why don't we talk like there's more often about you know if we're saying who reviews the reviewers who critiques the critics when it comes to? Charles Adler saying take five minutes to look at. How a real Canadian. Prime Minister Behaves when people choose to threaten the country he's sworn to protect. And he's basically linking to a youtube video from the CBC archives entitled. Just watch me from the year. Nineteen seventy when at the height of the F. O. Q. Crisis Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau's confronted by the media about him declaring the war measures act and basically restricting a lot of civil rights. And you know calling out the army and I just like holy smokes talk about A hyperbolic and be inflammatory rhetoric. Coming from here I mean so 'cause he's been really what's is funny but Adler is he's been super super ally recently the Lgbtq community. But he's still. He's still baiting yes I if if he was trying to review a play I mean he he'd basically say burn the theater down as God like I don't know I don't know it raises to me. In both cases the the question of you know there is a price to be paid for some people's ignorance but who pays that price? Not The reviewer not the critic often now that's one of the things I was I got after another reviewer back in Saskatoon many many years ago because I felt that reviewers writing was absolutely pathetic and I and they were like they were ruining actually the they were so bad at the gate keeping responsibilities they were ruining it for the Cedar Artisan in Saskatoon. And I and I made the point. If you write a crappy review of a play you get to go home and you're Ranta still paid. Your job is still going to pay you. You're still going to get a check. It doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever but it can really seriously affect the artist and again. I'm not saying that we should be trying to avoid bad reviews but what we should be doing the reviewers know what they're talking about and are capable of having a valid intellect intelligent discussion about what they're seeing and so they can have serious implications and impact and actually shutdown artists to the point that they're not did not working anymore. So that's why yeah reviewers have to be knowledgeable. I think there's nothing wrong with insisting upon a basic sort of like how. How would she say people are are capable reviewing her place which was well what someone with? Combat Experience. Some common exprienced me. Who has my skin color? There's a lot of people can say they don't see race bikes. Sure I'll tell you. They see skin color right so that I think when when she's a cute when she's accused being racist for saying that because she's the you know supposedly denying white people something what. I don't know what she's denying them. But you know it's not a racist statement. She's saying very clearly. I have experiences based on the color of my skin and other people who have experienced the same thing. We'll know what I'm talking about and you know she's definitely correct brock. Have you ever heard the expression You see sometimes it's Hashtag. This is not for you. You know this idea that Sometimes certain cultural productions are are meant for a specific audience. And if you don't connect to it and and and you know kind of in a knee jerk way say well. I feel excluded. Well how does that feel to have the shoe on the other foot? I think some people have said I mean. We're what are your thoughts on that? Yeah no it's it's a good point and and certainly I've I've seen it happen. I've felt that experience of realizing that I gotta step back that something that what people mean by that is it's not specifically for me but I've also seen other people use that as a way of creating an inclusive space safer for in this instance it could be for indigenous people for black people for other people's Color. I in terms of how that works in in terms of the the art world. I really appreciate cans points about just the the impact of like and you mentioned it to wreck the commercial impact that can have that can essentially sink. Someone's work if If they receive a negative view from somebody who isn't even willing to make the investment in terms of understanding the context from which piece has been put together. So I think the stakes are raised in this instance in terms of the The Art World and people's ability to appreciate it engage it. I I do I guess I appreciate that You Landa Banal who I don't know by the way but who Emphasized that she wants everyone to come in and see the peace like she. She went through pains to emphasize that it's open to everyone in terms of to attend It was specifically Making sure that as you mentioned the gatekeepers don't slam the gate shut before people have an opportunity to to see her work. And what do you think of the analogy? I'm tentatively drawing between art critics and critics at large like Charles Adler journalists. Who you know. I mean the price of ignorance is him suggesting that we should look at the war measures. Act in the context of all these blockades I mean the price of ignorance there of the full context that he's either unable or unwilling to contemplate Man Talk about stakes there. Well I think too like He he completely has sort of missed it. Or He's he's looked at through very very narrow filter You know the history of indigenous people the past fifty years like what is he missed. He's missed OHKA. Oh let's bring in the army. It was the largest military operation by the Canadian armed forces. Since the Korea. You know What else do we have you know? So they were how many officers were involved that justice and Lake Yesen Lake April wash pick went what happened in in Newfoundland what's happening in New Brunswick it's just where has he been? But what's interesting too? Is I mean that show. I mean he is his. It's part of his stick right. It's a talk show. He's supposed to provoke. He's supposed to get people riled up and in that sense it has one foot in entertainment so called. But he's he's getting people riled up like it's like yeah that's the that's the part you gotta walk for and like when you comfort the ignorant than they stay there right you got to confront it and it's it doesn't lead us anywhere. We have when we have to do this kind of work where we have to explain to people. What what's what's so it is like why why? What's a hereditary chief the end and then seeing all those ignorant of analogies hereditary chiefs are like kings in England like the divine right of kings? I don't think we want to keep that kind of system in Canada. And it's like you're completely equating to things that aren't equal this is not what hereditary chiefs about you know the they they completely missed the complexity of any kind of indigenous culture that has checks and balances built into it previous to the great white democracy showed up on our shores. Well I guess Brock and I will be in the audience. Can when you write a play about what so attendant and we'll invite Charles Adler and then we'll all my pleasure. Boats in there isn't an indigenous playwright. Who's not writing about colonization and its effects on. Can you have a basketball player? Involved somehow or early plays about basketball to slam dunk baby slasher journalists were the first characters that ever got the my place produce that was under stinking. Bannock republic. Look them up kitties all right any final thoughts do these stories bear any resemblance or was that just a cheap ploy in my part at the start of the show to get people interested. I don't know man. I don't answer that this shows. Oh Man Bill I I think I think there's totally a relationship. I think the whole idea of how you're going to like the whole idea of decolonizing space is still something that the Canadians are having trouble. Come to grips with But I'M GONNA BE POLLYANNA here. I am going to call myself out on it. The amount of outside support the amount of allied support these protests are getting from non indigenous. Settlers folk is amazing. It's not just you know. Just people who've been fighting for a long time now. We're seeing some results. We're getting more people on our side. I'm just you know regardless of what Charles Adler said. I'm seeing more pieces in mainstream media floating around about how Canada's overstepping its bounds and not obeying rule of law which throw around at and. I'm finding that that's a you know from over to now. That is a complete shift. There is a huge shift happening in this country That is beginning to understand it as people and it's our histories here. Well I think what's interesting? Is You know we talked about gatekeepers and gatekeepers usually their power resides in what gets talked about not so much what is said and they have no choice but to talk about it so in some ways. They're they're they're they're on their heels trying to spin corral the framing on this and I suppose to those predisposed to hear what they have to say you know. Not Much interchange growth or engagement is happening but at the same time I guess what we're my mind went to is with regard to two situations. You're not so much restricting speech restricting to Speaker of that speech. Do you know what I mean. And some may say that's a distinction without a difference. But I mean what happens in the? It's entirely possible. There's an indigenous person who has absolutely no connection There on the lighter side of the toast If you will like me and so you know may not be privy to The everyday experience of discrimination and a play like Yolanda nells just go over their head too. So I mean what would you rather a really woke review from a white person of that play or a really clueless response from an indigenous person a genetically or whatever. It's a rhetorical question yes brock. Your final thoughts take us home brother as always who? Well I I mean I. I think this is a really I do. I do like the way that you juxtapose. These two instances I think kind of like looted two in the opening comment right now. It's it's challenging to not think of Of Sort of like a media blackout without thinking of what Canada and I'd say the rcmp directly what the RCMP are trying to do with suits and and it reminds me of the the film that that you did the the idle. No more documentary The powers with us the focus and the one point of social media and how I think it was a Hashtag that rose called idle. No more resistance and so in this. This is an anti idle. No more yeah. That was that was on the Hash tag that you guys mentioned in the famous facebook. Facebook group idle no more resistance. Yeah that was my understanding so it was actually against the movement exactly. Yeah Yeah and and so that. That part for me is especially alarming. How I don't know how deeply you're able to probe while you were making that film in terms of how legitimate this was whether I'll no resistance was something that was funded by like some kind of equivalent of Jason Kenny's like oil and gas war rumor that that kind of I do think that this kind of contestation over public opinion is only going to increase especially in a social media age where people are getting messages from so many different sources so I think any time that I fear of like a media blackout of some kind. It's absolutely concerning but these two. It's it's interesting to have the two comparisons because the situation of having like a a recreational events and a media blackout. That seems to be intended to stop any kind of criticism similar to what happened previously and to my mind which was legitimate criticism about how they define who is indigenous and who was eligible to participate. I is this instance of the bug. Play yeah I I just think it's very nuanced approach that you're presenting us. With in terms of how how do we discern when it is appropriate to essentially a critique the gatekeepers as you mentioned critique the critic's so? I definitely don't feel like I don't I don't have any simple answers to it. I do appreciate all the all the people who've been drawing attention to what's been going on with Sullivan I. I'm driving into work hearing on the radio. Like the the lead story's rate now are all focused on what's going on with the CNN. Rail Line and the the blockade Between Ottawa and Toronto and as of today the the rail network has been shut down and across the country into to my mind. I mean that's the kind of solidarity action is just so powerful and the fact that the media has to still be talking about what so ten days after the RCMP. Went in I mean to me. That's that that's really that's really important and so Definitely I'd say. Indigenous movements are are going to be dependent to some extent on mainstream media. And that's why I even though mainstream media often doesn't get it is still important to engaged. Strategically it well. That raises an interesting question. I mean what what is worse a clueless commentariat who doesn't understand what's going on and we don't hear from them at all. In other words the issue is not being discussed Or they are discussing it but in such a self interested reinforcement of the status quo. Way that it you know what I mean like. What does more harm silence or ignorance when it comes to this so? We're NOT GOING TO RESOLVE THAT DILEMMA. Today but I will vote ignorance. What does that mean? Ignorance does more harm. Okay okay. So you'd rather no- not indigenous person talk about it then talk about it in a or almost. I'd rather have distorted. Take the no take at all if that makes sense and then I could critique the distorted version whereas if I have no information that I have nothing to work with a man so we have people on either side. Gosh how does that? I thought were a monolith though that we all speaking Brothers okay. Well let's leave it there. 'cause you know. I gotta go fix the gate here and get this out. Get this out the door. Let's just keep going with these puns and we'll talk to you both again soon. Good sounds good. Have you Valentine's Day Guy? That's it for media and digital episode one hundred and ninety seven recorded the afternoon of Friday February fourteenth. Two Thousand Twenty. Thanks again to Ken. Williams assistant professor with the University of Alberto's Department of Drama and Brock. Pit At one o'clock associate professor of indigenous studies at York University. I'm Rick Harp. Thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again soon. steam mystic bureaucratic

Ken Williams Toronto basketball Canada Charles Adler Kim Cyclic Harvey RCMP Brock BC US hockey York University associate professor facebook Landa Banal Eric Guy Mary Jane Edmonton
Seth Dailey, Operating Partner at Keller Williams Gateway

The No Limits Selling Podcast

23:46 min | 2 years ago

Seth Dailey, Operating Partner at Keller Williams Gateway

"Are you ready to become awesome? Hello, everyone. This is Martin meet your host and welcome to the no limit selling podcast. Where industry leaders shared their tips strategies and advice on how to make you better stronger faster, get ready for another episode. Today I'm sitting down with set daily, the operating partner for the daily group and Kenny Williams gateway. Welcome to the program. Thank you to be here. So Seth, how did you get into real estate? How long have you been in this career? So about thirteen years been in the real estate industry. My wife and I moved out here in two thousand five from Chicago to where we now live in Baltimore, and she got a real estate relatively soon after moved out here. She was in HR in Chicago. I was a CPA so I came out of public accounting. And when she went to real estate, it was actually one of those conversations of we both knew we wanted. Well, I knew I wanted to be in sales even more than she did. She got into real estate. So I was kind of like, well, if you're gonna have the fish, all of the the steak and so so I wanted to mortgages. So for about three years, I was on the mortgage side, five to two thousand eight. And so if we were helping a buyer would be very likely that she would help him find the house and and I turn around how get the mortgage and then in around two thousand eight as as the economy was shifting, we realize that it's like we were in the middle of the ocean in two little life. Votes and we're both paddling and we're like, why are we in two boats? One of them might get a leak and it's like well better. Just again one boat being pal twice as far twice as fast. And so I joined her on the real estate side. We continue to to build a team and and the team. It's just a vault from there. And now this point we have a team as well as brokerage. So tell me about the team. How many people in your team that is a constantly moving target. Approximately right now, there's about five administrative so five operations members and then five sales team members and then and then Allison, myself were more removed from production inside of the team currently. So so five and five right now, but it's team about twelve kind of me guys doing sure. So that team will probably do around one hundred fifty hundred seventy five units this year. Nice. So, yeah, the what made you come a practice owner like Ken Williams gateway chore. And what's the correct term assure so so. Kellerwilliams brokerages, they call market center that's with with language for almost everything. And so the primary owner, there's there's an ownership group and yet the primary owners called an operating partner. So that's my title or an operating principle. And so that's that's my role inside of the office. And that's effectively holding the leadership team in the office accountable, bringing capital envision to the to the enterprise. So talk to me about that. So kill Williams has a culture of what they want. But also when you have an office here in white Marsh, it has, I suspect would have a different feel than let's say, the killer Williams in San Diego like they've got the, would they be a different field shore. Sure. I'm, I'm sure like every organization they're going to take on the flavor of their leadership team to a degree. Right. And in some ways that that's, that's going to it all cascades down from leadership. So absolutely like. My approach towards real estate, my approach towards my view of keller-williams like that's going to cascade into this office to I'm, you know, you and I know some of the same trainers in the industry. And so there's no doubt about it like like who I've learned from his going to be infused into this office. And yet we did joint a company that has an amazing track record. And so that's the track record. We want to promote here. It's it's like if you buy an apple product, you wanna run an apple operating system on it. It's gonna work better anyway, and that's true. When you have a culture that you want to strengthen the new agents coming in, how do you instill this easy to give them a pamphlet? But how do you instill that culture in their hearts and minds they operate with that spirit in mind. That is a, that's a question that hits hits heavy because all my brains are to go there all the places that I'm not doing that to the level that I want right. I'm reminded of this idea of anytime we want to change a culture. It's it shifting the frequency of the conversation and the nature of the conversation. I say, I feel times more -ffective on that inside of the team. Right? Changing a culture of team of twelve. Yes. It certainly easier than changing culture inside of a a brokerage of one seventy in some ways. Somewhere in that line, there's there's a, there's almost shift where a team you feel like you're attracting people to a team and a brokerage at that size. They can feel a bit more like clients, yes, right. At the end of the day, like who are clients, whether the agents in this office at you and I are sitting in right now and I don't know exactly where that line shifts. And I know that a breakthrough for me as a leader is is how lead larger larger groups in casts more and more of a vision. For me, it started what's true in both the team and inside of the brokerage is this idea that that what we're about empowering people to to deliver successful life as they can. And so so it's taking some of the, let's the Kellaway stuff, right? So Callaway says that they want to help people have careers worth having and businesses worth owning and lives were living than we're kind of at a local office level. It's like we're playing in between the space of the notes, right? If we think about music, like, yes, we're in the space in between there. So what does it actually look like to have a career worth having here in the Baltimore suburbs, right with with what our cost of living is what our transaction price points are Serling. What does that look like and given the makeup of this market? Like what is a life worth living? And so really going into those conversations, my life has has consistently been about empowering people like if if was to choose a life word, her life, where we'd be connection. My life were being powering. And so between the two of us, like what were at doing in the world is in power. In connection with that, looks like in the office is making our office almost taking some pages out of the playbook of our team. So our team for for decades been doing client events. Well, couple years ago we started picked up at the office level. So we do like thanksgiving pie event. I mean, that's that's something that we brought from our team into the office and other people in the office of done it. Absolutely. And yet Arta was like, how can we take some that's work welfare at team level and empowered so that any agent in the office, even if they just have three or four plants that they want to invite to it that they can. It's all about helping people build community with their own sphere of their own database. It's actually one of the reasons why I'm next door neighbors with one of the agents in this office. You and I both know well, and, and it's, it is possible to have a great friendly relationship and a great cooperative relationship. Because at the end of the day, we have different databases, we have different spheres of influence that going back to the pie reference the pie. Is bigger than any. One of us zero. It brilliant people have heard of is his name was Calvert. He started the NSA the national speakers association. He started at when there wasn't anything as a professional speaker. So his goal was what we need to do is to we, we need to make the pipe bigger. So whatever knowledge he had, he freely shared it with anybody this, how you do this, this is how you get a contract for my contract. Yeah. And he started this organization and the cool part about it is this the guy has been dead and buried probably for twenty five years. But you go into any NSA chapter around the world and you've got a million dollar speaker and somebody that's just starting out in the million dollar person will open up their playbook and share it with them. So that's creating a culture that transcends the leader is already dead, but it's still living and it's just very much how do we empower people to become awesome and those guys rocket. That sounds fantastic. Wow. I need to look into that. So. Seth, tell me this many agents here and you probably had a lot more through the years. Paps, don't name the agent, but think of agent that came in that had such great promise and you'll looking on saying, you know, this person could be a rockstar, and they're still struggling. How did you help them figure out what the roadblock was and overcome that? Like do you have one of those kind of real practical? You know, it took a while, but we figured out what had him stuck yet. It's I can think of a couple agents. The common theme right? Is it is mindset, right? I mean that that's that's where it goes to an and you said something earlier about the size of the pie. It's amazing when we just simply think about scarcity versus an abundance. Yes, mindset. And that shows that everywhere shows up for agents in the feeling about scarcity of what they're what work they have to do. So they don't hire a team because they're stuck in scarcity mines. They, they think of employees as a cost rather than an investment it, they. Their approach to bring on buyer's agents. It can be mired in the scarcity. Watch limiting beliefs just show up for people again and again, and and it's amazing kind of the stories that we tell ourselves, like I was, I was in a conversation today with with a couple of agents at a different office. And yet it's a common theme and it's like, it's like if I asked you if we've ever tried to lose weight, some we'll show I've tried to lose weight. Right. And and did you did you succeed or did did you fail? I fail. Okay. And was that you didn't know enough now? I, I knew plenty. It wasn't a knowledge issue like, and we're so quick to think that we just need more knowledge in the answer. When reality we probably have all the knowledge we need. It's an execution thing and our industry. I certainly observe that it's like people belonging to a gym. Yes. And thinking that if they would just go to a different gym with the new way to quit or maybe with the old school way to quit -ment trainer bills or the new Chinese the trainer. That's right, right. And they just think that if I've just I've just go to the new Jim, then I get different results. And meanwhile, it's always pulls back to the fundamental. So. So it's the rewiring of like living with empathy? Yes. Role. So how do you, how do you transform that? Well, it's one, it's being in Vallejo. Enough with an agent like that to say, like, let's actually unpack what you're doing poll, pull all the stories aside and just get back to what's the real issue. And the real issue is is using come down to a couple of simple fundamentals, but it might have been covered over by years and years and years of like flawed thinking that just gets into this really gung up space in their head. And that's exactly how beliefs work. You could have somebody in a loving relationship with their father. They're five years old. They've got a million examples of their father doing amazing things, and this one thing they do wrong, they father flips out. And in that moment they get a belief that I'm worthless, which actually is total bullshit. Yeah, but the way beliefs work is like, okay, if that's a belief that have got now the look for evidence. Oh, he spoke to my brother before he spoke to me that must mean and all of a sudden we start building this guk around it because it's bullshit. And the only way we can make it real or Reeler is to collect evidence to make it so scary. Don't go anywhere near and we just operate with it. Yeah, and unpacking it. When you finally get down to the last threat and you look, there's nothing there. Yeah. And the question is, how do you get to that fifty? Do it on your deathbed when you like ninety five? Or do you have this conversation with someone that cures, you realize, oh, my God. All this time. I thought it was other people, but it's me holding myself back what's teaching course on negotiation last week and even their right. Like like anytime you can help people separate out what actually happened with the story. Like what did we make a mean? If we just we go through like just kind of asking ourselves, what did I just make that mean right about about three thing that happened like, you know, what is something happened? Somebody hung up on me or somebody said this or somebody did that, and and what did I tell myself which true based on that because it's whatever's there. That's the programming and we're we, the prime is that our program and it so quickly between when something actually happens and when we make up a story. Absolutely. And it's the speed at which that occurs that the we think it's the same thing in. It's like it's back to the movie, the matrix, right? We in slow motion, kind of dodging the bullets, and it's like if we could take our lives and when when interaction occurs with a co-worker or Kleiner or whatever. Might be, we can slow down, kind of like the matrix and see the difference between the client just said x. and I made a mean x and y and z and n it resonated with the other bullshit I carry within myself made it more real sure like my ridiculous activator. Anytime somebody says acts, I really key into that. Yeah, what's amazing is I'm not sure if you've ever been in a near traffic accident, but if you have you this something called time, distortion where time slows down. So I'll tell you this one story. I was going to pick my mother up at work and it just snowing. It's like in in Canada snows a-rod, and there was s bend in the road and just as a hit, the first part of the s the radio went out of tune. So I took a young driver like eighteen or seventeen, and I took my hand off the wheel to hit the radio and my hand yanked on the other side, the car went into out of control spin and. Me time slow down and I put one hand behind the seat. The other one I was just using my finger to stare and did this amazing thing cart ended up going backwards a little bit, but nobody got hurt. Then I just did a u-turn went to pick her up and nobody had come down the street and that we would driving back. My mother looks at the tarmac says, oh my God, look what somebody did. Yes, mom somebody like totally insane. Point is is I was in total control because the adrenaline and the fight of flight response, and they just slow down time to basically see what you needed to do. Yeah. And so we have that ability and what you're doing in your training is getting people to mechanically unpack this slow this down and see that a happened and you made it mean this when that's your stop, not anybody else's. That's a gift giving people that ability. Yeah, it's. Slowing down in our minds. I mean, I think a lot lately about, you know, an and I got it from from Tony Robbins, but just this this idea that it's what we focus on. Yes, and it's the language that we use. And then of course, history component is it's our, it's our physiology like you. You hear the exact same statement from somebody with your arms folded or sitting down slumped in a chair versus standing up and and you'll hear see differently. Absolutely. And. And it's amazing. I, I'm a pretty cerebral person feel like for most of my life, I've been successful. Through. I got places through my thinking, yes, and I realized, you know, over the years, like actually into shift that to realize like all of my beam needs to be involved in a decision and mean. Yeah, the our breakthrough is is as close away as a quick shift in our thinking, and sometimes even just shifting physiology. And it can transform one conversation at a time. Brilliant. And I think we can do that for the negative things in life, but we also need to do it for the positive things when something amazing happens unpacking that and going, wow, that person really cares or how they said this, and I could have gone down that path, but I chose to go down this path. Yeah, because his wisdom everywhere is just, you know, we've heard that old adage of you know this the past future, but there's only one present and most of us being -cluded do not live here most of the time, the time living somewhere else. And if we can actually be present for the person you're with, there's ton of information coming over that you can use to to strengthen the relationship the the. That's beautiful. I don't know if you've heard of a concept called appreciative inquiry, but it sounds. Yeah, probably have a book somewhere in this office on the topic, but appreciative inquiry while it's in some ways. It's a symbols of sounds right. It's inquiry. So it's question. Yes. That are appreciative, right? Outta lenses, you look positive and and I recognize that I again, I told you I was coaching a team of agents earlier this morning, and when I started the meeting, I normally my normal disposition would be going to and say, well, so what's what's what's broken in the team? What what do we need to work on? And I, I mean, that's my normal looking for like a swat analysis. You wanna fix it. What weakness zero in on it. And in started with the question, like, what are you appreciate most about your team like like like it's actually and it took him a little bit to get started on that, like it was actually hard for them to engage in the appreciative side of the conversation and then just shows you like how wired we are naturally to go to to fault or blame or finding something negative. It's a muscle. We actually need to work at humans as business people as as coaches, people leading teams work the appreciate muscle in inside of our world. It's huge tomorrow. I'm going to be doing a workshop and I'm asking people. To tell their partner with their awesome. Yeah, I'm gonna ask after they've done that, how many people here felt really uncomfortable doing that? And about eighty percent of hands will go up telling people where I'm screwed up. That's much more comfortable than telling them where I'm awesome. So it's all that kind of internal baggage filters. How we see the world. Sure. The way we filtered the world is the way we validate the world. So it becomes like this ever tightening circle of BS like, what have we think we're looking for evidence and we get stronger instructor more rooted in it till we basically can't get out of that blends in and and yet understanding that filters exist is like so much of of the breakthrough resolutely once we understand they exist, one thought is we can change the filters. So I'll give you good example of that where we understand it deeply. You've got kids, right. How old are you children? So we're just had a birthday, so we got fift- so four daughters? Yes. Fifteen, thirteen nine and six. So I bet you every. Single one of them on a particular issue, whether it's boyfriends or going staying up late, whatever the issue is, if I ask them, what would you dad think about this? I bet you with a high degree of accuracy. Did say my dad would say this and my mother would say this, the know which want to go to or so a lot of times we don't see our own filters clearly, but we can see others filters with quite a bit of accuracy. Yeah, yeah, which is kinda pass ending, how he can do it for other so easily and our own stuff we're blind to. And that's why God invented spouses. 'cause they tell us. Well, I'm super grateful for mine because that's true. And it's funny because we say that Tang cheek, right because they do. And yet whether somebody's in a committed relationship or just has a coaching relationship religion with business partner. The reality is we are as humans like we need community, yes, in a powerful way. And sometimes it just it just actually asking people crushing. There's there's an author, Brennan Brown. She would say it statement this Rashid say, send her husband should say, hey, this just happened. And the story I made up about that puts our marriage risk and and but so just thinking about brilliant, that is right. She just g knowledge is, hey, this happened right? Like in now I'm giving examples from our team. Right? You showed up late to a meeting or, or you said this or or your postal social media was like this and, and the story I made up about that, which is great because now owning it's like knowledge that you've got a filter and then just actually speaking into the. Conversation. I made it mean something else in actually just by saying that you start to separate out for yourself, what actually happened versus the story, then you can take ownership of that. Like there's so much change that can occur this for us is how when we watched a culture transform within our team or even inside the brokerage, it transforms because people get responsible for their own filters and start to live in in in relationship with people in a different way. Right. It causes more authentic. Absolutely. I've seen the other side of that coin where when Seth, when you did this, I thought it meant this. Did I get it right? Yeah. And sometimes for the other person instead of Seth, you did this and you bastard, this means that, yeah. Yeah. Other people get defensive when it's like, Seth, I saw you do this and you can only talk about what you saw, what you heard or something physically touched. So there is no nebulous nece, and I thought. This meant that you disrespected me and then you go, yes, I did or no? Yeah, I did this because and if we could have those kinds of conversations with selves on that side of the coin, the other side of the coin, this the meaning. This story I told myself, wouldn't it make the world a simpler place? And even even just that that quote, you know, we judge others by their actions, judge ourselves by our intentions and imagine if we would just flip it right, and we judge others by their intentions and only assume positive intent. Yes, right. Just just only a symposium intent ever with something because how could you actually know any different we make up all these these stories all the time. I'm sure you've traveled a lot. I have two in the one thing I've noticed is no matter where you go. People are nice. People want to help you. People go out of the way to do amazing things, and if we can just realize that in our work setting, yeah, in our families that the intention is positive one. I mean, that's a testament to you because there are going to be some people who travel, and that's not their experience because they see what they're expecting to see. Right. And yet I love that right. Like like there there are. There's enough goodness in the world that when you're on the lookout for it's amazing how it will show up. Brilliant, Seth, this was a delightful conversation. Thanks down with me. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. If you enjoyed this episode, please go to issue of five star rating. And if you're looking more go to my website at no limit, selling dot com. Got a free mind. Training course there that's going to teach you some insights from the world neuro linguistic programming, and that is the fastest way to get better results.

Seth operating partner Baltimore Chicago apple Martin Allison Williams Kenny Williams Ken Williams white Marsh Tony Robbins Callaway Arta Calvert Brennan Brown
All Together Now: Fridays with The Moth - Anne Moraa & Caroline Hunter

The Moth

24:25 min | 6 months ago

All Together Now: Fridays with The Moth - Anne Moraa & Caroline Hunter

"Hey all I'm Catherine, Burns artistic director of the moth, and we have exciting news for the first time. In our history, we're helping launch a new podcast about ugly confessions from beautiful people. It's called the confessional and it's created and hosted by beloved moth storyteller and friend Nadia. Nadia describes the show as a car wash for people's shame and secrets, and it includes confessions big and small. We're so proud to be a part of this collaboration between Nadia, your producers at House of pod Denver and our longtime partners PX the confessional with Nadia both Weber is available now. Welcome to altogether now, Fridays with the moth. I'm your host for this week when McNeil as the Moss Digital Media System, my work is primarily seen and not heard I'm so excited to be on Mike this week. But if you really want to see what I do, follow them off on Instagram moth stories are on twitter and facebook at the moth. This month altogether now is all about connection. Here at the moth, we believe empathy the ability to understand and share the feelings of another is a great way to inspire to connection this past summer shared feeling of anger towards systemic injustice, connected me to fellow protesters all across the world. Today August twenty eighth March three months of daily protests in New, York. City. So we're bringing you stories about anger and its power to heal and sparked change our first story. This week is from an era and came to us through the Moss Global Community Program when she told this story to workshop for women and girls in Nairobi Kenya. An live at the off. Okay. It's two years ago. I'm driving home from work as you should and. It's narrow be. So on a three lane road, there's about ten lanes happening, which is fine. It's normal and as driving a car which is overlapping hits, me hits the car it's my car and it's a very gentle love tap. It's just like just a whisper of an accident and. I was GonNa just brush off is a kind of thing where you know he's not even really going to scratch but the man driving rolls down his window I start shouting at me like women drive as why can't you keep the? and. I'm furious a key he did that he was, and then he hit me and he's screaming at me and is driving past slowly and traffic still shouting obscenities at me and I'm so angry my handset shaking holding the steering wheel. So what do I do? Nothing. I just sit. And a memory comes to mind. When Since I was a kid I used to be the Tantrum throwing kid I was a kid to adults were scared of. and. Something you learn very quickly if you're an angry kid, particularly an angry black girl is that you should not grow up to become an angry black woman at best you'll be irritating at worst you will get killed. So right from an early age I was told how to sit up straight how to be quiet to barry that anger down and keep it within myself and I'm nine years old. and. My mom brings home sauces a packet of twelve. And I I need to clarify that I love sausages. I know you're laughing no. No, I loved sausages. And I have two brothers one older by eight years one younger by two. And wants the sausage was brought home as growing up? You know to be a lady of Decorum. We called a referendum about the sausages. Read Long Discussion. And we decided collectively that all the twelve I would get to they would get ten would get up at eight. AM The next day on. Sunday morning to make them together and then watching cartoons it was very clear agreement and I go to bed. And wake up and they smell sausages. Excited like my brothers. Love me so much. They decided to make the sausages for me I don't even have to cook they go downstairs and they're sitting. Full. Hurtful on the table. And they're looking at me with the empty plates in front of them. And they feel the reach. My hand is shaking but I'm. A Lady of Takura. And ask. So. Ways with my sausage. And my brothers just look at me they like. Nights over. Nothing else. This is when my memory fades to white. I. Remember Only, that I found I had a wooden spoon in my hand. And my six foot. Seventeen year old brother was running away from me and I am screaming. I am. I hear my mother running down the stairs she comes out and she's like, Hey, what are you doing? She gives the threat. You always give us a siblings zone we fought like. Whoever wins. spank. Then I'm GonNa Spank the loser next. But I don't I don't even care so mad and look at her and in fits of rage being so upset we agreed the IBA sausages that it's not fair and it's not right in them. So furious and my mother listens and when I find a common for her to understand she pauses looks at me and says Okay. Haya. Do it. Yeah. The Joy. The Joy of the Lord granting you the gift of might your enemies of the righteous anger? Our was so happy. I was chasing them round the house and they could do nothing to me because I knew I was right on my mother said so so there. And I'm back in the car. Shaking with rage. And looking at this guy who's driven past. After your shouted at me and to hear it again. Okay Do it. Get Out of the car? I, walked down the highway, my door's open. My bag is hanging out money atom care and they go to his car window and they grab it like Hey. Where you going, can just hit me and drive off. The man is like what is happening like? No, you can't do that puck that. Starts Screaming instructions, spelling everybody on the road what to do how to watch him. Watch my car get the police. Jack. We get off the side of the road and he tries to shout me down. And at that moment I was not a lady of decorum hours that angry nine year old girl being like you will not talk to me that we excuse I have been doing this since I was born you want to have a shouting match Lego and we shout at each other and to he finally pauses he's like okay. Okay. Okay. Fine. Fine Madam what do you want? and. I. Wanted the same thing then that I wonder where my brothers took those sausages I wanted an apology. And just like them. He looked at me and said okay. I'm sorry. Thank you. That was an era and is a Kenyan feminist cultural worker who writes edits and performs. She's the M. L. Am Sisterhood an award. winning. Story Company that feels the world was stories for African women to feel seen heard and loved, and she's at work on her debut novel all while eating copious amounts of lemon crisps. And told the story with us a few years ago and when we asked her how she feels about it now she said I'm seeing more and more that rage is a lighthouse. It guides me in knowing this cannot do and then revealing what must be done. By lying myself to feel it as a child and now better at harnessing my anger and speaking into the world with empathy and firmness young me was always right. Our last story today is from Caroline Hunter. Caroline told the story at a main show on Martha's vineyard where the theme of the night was occasional magic. Here's caroline live at the mall. I was born in one, thousand, nine, hundred, forty, six, the fourth of six children onto Marian, and Stephen Hunter in segregated New Orleans. The. Six of US walked five blocks to Corpus Christi Elementary School for our formative education. And we were kept busy very, very busy. When Corpus Christi's summer camp let out. To local, public, library to. Sign up for the Summer Reading Club. And soon in the cute love of books in reading. And I think I read every book in Naveh Public Library by the time I left New Orleans. For High School I went onto Xavier Prep, and we had to travel across town on segregated public buses. Have set behind the colored sign. I've drank a lot of colored water. I even shop that the wolves word five and dime where you could not try on clothes nor sit at the counter and eat. In High School I had missed the vulgar who we called, missy He taught us about the civil rights movement and chided us to get involved. But we live in the protective bubble of segregation. We had black everything we needed teachers, lawyers, doctors, retail businesses have every time seamstresses, auto shops. So. While the civil rights boom was going around us we were not involved, but there was one thing that's the vulgar. Did that reached me? He introduced us to cry the beloved country. The story of the lives of blacks in South Africa under apartheid. There were many things in that book that resonated with my segregated life. And I was so deeply moved by the suffering and the pain of the Africans in that story that I recited passages of the book to my family and friends. Little, did I know that that book Kreider Beloved Country With Changed My Life I went on to university and graduated in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, four with a bachelor's degree in chemistry. In my junior year Robert Kennedy was assassinated. Months after I graduated the Civil Rights Act of nineteen, sixty four was passed. I was hired by the Polaroid, Corporation at the filling out a brochure. A recruiting brochures center the historically black colleges I arrived in. Cambridge fulfilling the dream of a young girl I was a working professional at the Polaroid Corporation. I integrated the color labs where I was hired. There were other black workers but I was the first professional research scientists. Are you there? While at Polaroid I joined the boss motivation program. It was corporate effort to donate workers to go into the Boston public. Schools. To motivate the children. But. I was troubled by some things when I entered the classroom. When I mentioned this in the group's follow-up Group leader said Oh no, we can't do with us. We just have to go into the best job we can. There was one of person who was equally troubled to that as I was. That was Ken Williams. He was a polaroid photographer and we developed a friendship and eventually a relationship. On the day of the historic moment when I went to pick up for lunch, he was in the back lab, and so we had to walk through the rooms. And for some reason, on the way out, we notice an ID badge. Maybe it was the picture of of the black worker the only other black guy in the shop that was on the ID badge that caught our attention. Below his name was the phrase department of the minds. Union of South Africa. I'm sure refroze for awhile. Looking at the cart. Ken took it off the board. And we examined it to see if it was real. and. Then he said I didn't know polaroid was in South Africa. And I said. I know it's a bad place for black. People. And all the memories of Mr Vulgar and cry the beloved country. And all the memories, the stories. That I read of the pain suffering of the African masses. Came rushing back to me. That evening we went to the library looked up South African encyclopedia and checked out tons of books. Mon. South Africa. Researched and read the more we read the more we wanted to know. The more we knew the more horrified we were. We learned of the rules and laws of the system of apartheid, the legal separation of people by race and skin color to deny the right to vote and the repression. Often caused by not having a Passbook, a sixty page document that every African had to carry on their person at all times and Polaroid was making the photos for those passbooks. And we decided that as black workers at Polaroid we had to do something. Ken May. The leaflet using polaroid's favors slogan. An instant picture in a minute. The leaflets said Polaroid imprisons black people in sixty seconds. They sold their system to south. Africa. They'll sell it to Rhodesia Alabama Mississippi and Georgia to seize. The Times. We went to the office of the old mole radical newspaper in the site for many organizing groups in Cambridge and used them mimeograph machine to reproduce out leaflet. And then we headed to my workshop the color labs. Signed into the building with our own polaroid idea work cards. And proceeded to put out a leaflet neatly up on every bulletin board. On the back of restroom stalls where the corporate people parked and we signed out and left the building. On Monday when we were reported to work tar respected places. The polaroid police and the Cambridge police will looking for us. They let us go to work while they tried to figure out what to do. And when we arrived at our job sites, Co workers who are very angry at US polaroid couldn't be in south. Africa. It's a liberal corporation. It has good policies. So we asked our unbelievably co workers to call human relations to see if we were telling the truth. And when the phones were taken off the hook and no one got a response, the anger shifted away from us. That evening, our little group gathered and we decided we would have a rally. To let the rest of the workers know what was going on. We went back to the old mole office to look for a South African speaker and they found Kristen Ted, afforest a young black South African divinity student who just arrived to be educated in Cambridge with his young family. On. The day at a rally. We had planned to have it outdoors in the open green. We found out Ken found out. That the cab drivers have been replaced by FBI agents and police officers. And there were snipers on the roof. So. We moved our rally under the trees. Can spoke about the laws in history of South Africa. And then Kristen tell the spoke here was a young black South African to say from his own person I had my passbook photo taken by polaroid. He talked about the lives and details of blacks under South Africa's repressive regime. And he talked about the role of Polaroid Corporation's in supporting. South Africa. We had prepared three demands. We wrote them on polaroid stationary is an internal memo and called ourselves. The Polaroid revolutionnaire workers movement. Those demands said that polaroid should withdraw immediately from South Africa. that. They should denounce apartheid in the US and in South Africa and that they should turn over their profits recognize liberation movement. I rally drew a lot of attention and it made news. Following the rally, we had a contentious meeting with polaroid. Executives. Where we presented three demands amid their denials. The following day Ken was fired. But he was. Vigilant. And vowed to continue by any means. I continue to work leafleting before and after work. With, many speaking engagements around the area building a coalition of students. Civil rights organizations. Church groups, work and labor groups to continue the fight to get pulled out of. South. Africa. When they decided, they would not recall for an international boycott. And that coalition local coalition grew nationally and internationally. In nineteen seventy one. In February, months after are beginning. We testify before the United Nations Special Committee on apart. Shortly after that, I was fired for conduct detrimental to the best interests of a corporation. Organizing a boycott up. And although I had many regrets about losing my first professional job. gave. Me Twenty four seven to work on the boycott. For Seven. Years. Despite many trials and tribulations. The boycott campaign led by the Polaroid revolutionnaire workers movement continued. And in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, seven. Polaroid withdrew from South Africa. It was the beginning of the end, of apartheid. And the beginning of many US corporations leaving South Africa but the first to leave due to international public pressure and a boycott. The. Real moment of triumph came many years later. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety. When in a broadcast studio and Channel Seven TV in Boston I sat making commentary with my husband Ken Williams and the Reverend Chris Tadayoshi. As we watched Nelson Mandela walk out of deal. It was the culmination of a story. The end in the beginning of chapter of a book. And a connection to the harmful messages and lessons from the older and it really was about a book. Thank you. That was Carolina Hunter. Caroline was born and raised in New Orleans since her anti-apartheid work began she's received numerous awards for her longstanding commitment to the fight. Now Caroline lives on Martha's Vineyard and leads the polar bears the historic African Americans swim in Water Aerobics Club. I think a lot about the stereotype of the angry black woman and the words used to dismiss and shame black women who challenge societal inequalities. This week stories remind me of my favorite speech by Audrey Lord about the use of black women's anchor. She says when we turn from anger, we turned from insight saying we will accept only the designs already known deadly and safely familiar. I love the way and Caroline don't shy away from their anger, but instead use it as fuel to make their lives and the lives of others better. I've seen a lot of people choosing to use their anger for positive change. These last few months I've marched chanted and even meditated alongside some of them in my favorite weekly protests meditating black lives. I love those quiet moments where we check in with ourselves and sit with are heavier more difficult feelings. As protests continue I. Hope we stand firm our anger. It means there's something worth fighting for. If you're inspired to think more deeply about our stories this week here, a few questions to get you started. What is your relationship to anchor like? When was the time you stood up for yourself or others? You can also find these prompts in the extras for this episode on our website, the moth dot org slash s, and remember you can always pitches a story of your own right on our website. That's all for this week until next time from all of us here at the moth have a story week. Quinn mcneal is the digital media assistant when she's not making graphics with the moth, she likes to spend her time in her local ceramic studio making plates bowls and platters via extravagant well-attended Dinner Party of her dreams podcast production. By Julia personnel the moth podcast is presented by PR x the Public Radio Exchange helping make public radio more public at pure x dot org.

Polaroid Corporation South Africa Africa US Caroline Hunter Ken Cambridge The Times Nadia Boston Union of South Africa New Orleans York South Africa Ken Williams twitter Kenya
Coping and Commiserating in the Corona Era (Ep. 205)

MEDIA INDIGENA : Indigenous current affairs

55:11 min | 11 months ago

Coping and Commiserating in the Corona Era (Ep. 205)

"I'm Rick Harp from Winnipeg this media and digital episode tool five on this week's indigenous roundtable corona commiseration. It's the topic on everyone's mind. All the time which itself can be a challenge for us included inundated with infection information. How much might be too much for our mental health? It's a real question one for which we invite your feedback with so many media already covering Ovid should media and digital our thoughts on exactly that in a moment along with a discussion on coping with these uncertain times including our efforts to promote the positive amidst it all and speaking of positive permit me this quick nod to those who keep this. Podcast going. Our patrons on patriarch new patrons like Aaron and an Lau each now pledging one dollar every month. Kalem at two Stephen at three along with Chelsea and lay on each pledging five dollars every month thanks to everyone in a position to support what we do. It's your investment which enables everyone to enjoy this podcast. Alright and joining me back at the roundtable this week are in Edmonton. It's Ken Williams Assistant Professor at the University of Birds Department of drama. Hey Ken Hey Rick McDougall Ontario. It's associate professor of indigenous studies at York University. Brock Pittawan acquired Brooke. Hi Rick Chaikin. Abrar so guys. It's going to be a little different this week. I think In some ways it's going to be perhaps more personal than it's ever been kinda sharing where our minds are adware are. Our lives are at in terms of trying to to cope with this uncertainty. That I that I'm sure a lot of people are trying to to confront in their own ways or perhaps not confront the other day the other day yesterday funny time continues to be elastic. Last night I was Binging on Netflix show and thought I tweet out what I was using this. As kind of refreshments and snacks and I don't think I've ever gotten this much social media love in a long time. I just tweeted out a picture of of red wine and cheese. So that's kind of gives you a sense of how I'm coping but any case. Lots of people seemed to approve of that choice. You know the pairing I guess is what they thought was Quite apropos but in any case so guys I gotTa Confess I. I wasn't As you know one hundred percent certain that we should go back to a corona discussion. But is it worth talking about? Rick how you were kind of worried about co vid. Fatih term? I think that's interesting in itself. Both of YOU SORTA How could we not? Yeah I just find it so hard not to talk. That's why would mean. We're looking at other topics and I. I did listened to. The podcast did with candidates in Kim last week. Yeah and there was a kind of one point you all three of. You're laughing because you kinda come around to. I think it was. Kim was the one who's making the connection between the topic that you initially picked up And you mentioned that because you had the previous three podcasts. Ralph covert focus. He wanted to go a different direction than economic guys review. Kind of came around again and it becomes a struggle because this podcast doesn't exist in a vacuum in some ways it's unstated mission is to deliver an indigenous reality check on what mainstream media put out there or fail to put out there when it comes to describing and framing our realities. So I don't necessarily want to. Just add to the deluge of content. But at the same time this virus the disease is affecting people differentially inequitably. And and it's important to to to get a handle on that it's just it really. Is The elephant in the room. You can't you can't get away from it because it's just been so since sweeping in terms of the the impact. So Yeah I. I'd be interested to know a little bit more about how you would manage that. I guess or how you would like to provide alternatives or whether you were worried about kind of just like joining the pile on in terms of people's public anxiety over west going on and you're trying to provide an outlet instead to be on. Yeah I'm just. The thought has crossed my mind a few times. Is that what we actually need is respect? We need to know wastes away from this. This this is you know if everything's on fire around us this is. This is a tiny bit of mountain. That we've climbed up to that we can just go. Okay let's take a break from all of this. So for example just having some fun activities of various cayennes still involving all of you but something that just. I Dunno might help take people's minds off of this stuff and so that in a sense it's addressing cove without going down covert rabbit holes which you may may may see people spiral right. Yeah I don't know I mean we come up against this too. I mean in some ways. It's just a different version of the question of like. How do you do indigenous studies without just telling tales of woe? You know what I mean. constantly that deficit model yeah colonialism fatigue. I totally agree and as we talked about a few shows ago. You know I mean if we're constantly hammering away at our victimization while then people start to in all. That's the that's the argument. We shouldn't Z. Ourselves as victims on the other hand as I've said ten different ways before I mean it's important to understand what's going on otherwise will succumb to gas lighting haw. Yeah well it's it's there's a classic kind of dilemma that they talk about in both storytelling filmmaking theater like can you decry violence but still show. Violence does not by the act of showing violence in itself. Endorse it or make it tractive that whole thing about anti war films wall if you show a war film hasn't anti-war film. That's not that makes no sense Your glamorizing it inadvertently in. You're relying on thrill that that visceral thrill of it anyway to to you know to talk about it your Creator. I mean we're all creators. Were all telling stories of a kind but in terms of this Pacific vehicle for the production of information and understanding and insight like just enough content. Okay maybe this analogy gets us out. Gets you the answer? You're looking for okay. I'm trying to formulate the question. I think I know where you're going with your question. Okay when it was Eddie. 'cause we worked at the C. TV offices at the time because of the arrangement we had to see TV So I was working on the local one in. Saskatoon is one of the one of the creative people that are kept going why? Why is snow in Winter News? Why do we? Why don't we make that part of the news? So why do we talk about? The weather in. Canada is a common denominator. I think we need to talk about it. We need to we need to digest and I think we need to interpreted an offer. Our opinions freely. Because there's a certain sets of commiseration that is healthy We're not wallowing in this. We're showing our commonality with our listeners. About however all trying to cope with this massive crisis because we can't ignore it if we ignore it pretending it's not their humankind needs to talk about stuff. I don't think I when I'm thinking of coming to is. I don't think if you have if you have pandemic fatigue I'm really sorry It's I have no way of saying how to help you out of that because we're going to be. This is resisting the beginning of this. It's that's the thing we have to realize again. Sometimes it can be helpful to say I feel too and we're all feeling it and you're not alone in that feeling and all that needs to be said well then there you go. Yeah so listener. We feel you saw the point of this was to to to assess. What's on your mind to share that with each other to connect to reach out to familiar voices. Ken Let's start with you. I mean where's your mind? Been at since we last spoke since we last spoke I I'm glad I have a very solid Internet connection and Excessive bandwidth because I totally binged through red dead redemption which is a video game which is available on the xbox not that. I'm playing xbox but it has been something I've been like keeping myself saying with But Yeah I just It's it's really caused cannabis shift in how socializing with people how connecting with people still and home connecting with students So that's that's been where I've been. I've been trying to essentially do work as professor and then do my other creative work. I need to do for theatre which still have a project that is going on which I'm very fortunate to have and staying inside as much as I have to rock. our Thanksgiving you. How are you dealing with things yell like? We spoke about a couple of weeks ago. I think the challenge is Ben for Post Secondary For College and university students that it's been extremely disruptive and same thing for K. to twelve in terms of Sort of forced home schooling on a mass scale so I think for people who are working in education. It's been a you know a total malchow few weeks. My both of my kids have been out of school now for months and seven and nine and I as more or less feels like they slipped in the summer Summer holiday type of routine but without the opportunities to do sorta usual excursions like day camps or sports are just friend visits so I think It's yeah it's it's been it's been different than I. That's one of the things that has been interesting to see how How families have been adjusting in terms of Trying to get into Ah COMFORTABLE ROUTINE THAT. Keeps the kids feeling safe and Not just feeling safe but actually a healthy too so so those of sort of been the things that have been top of mind for me Over the last month and something you mentioned just before we started recording is the challenges you're facing with Internet which is something you know. There is a digital divide when it comes to urban versus rural or remote you found that difficult to navigate absolute which has has implications even for us here right. Yeah will have running off my phone data for the most part because we do live in a rural area that seasonally sees a big jump in population and were about two hours north of Toronto. And so there's been an issue here Many other places as well. I've seen it be see elsewhere. But of people to some extent trying to practice the social distancing protocol by going to rural remote areas to to ride out this This time period and so it just means that there's been a lot more people around and The services that will usually have whether it's for you know getting grocery is going to the pharmacy And and and something like Internet for example. There's a lot more strain on it as well as teachers now and I mean like K. To twelve teachers trying to stay connected with their soons and sending assignments online. So my my daughter. Who's in grade two She's getting online assignments or guidance from her teacher And in our case of something. We're really struggling with because we live in a rural area That relies on satellite Capped cap data plan. So you can only have so many gigabytes of download per months. And even then it's it's just been proven totally inadequate and and it's not working as it normally would presumably because they're just so much more demand so do people have cottages. Yeah exactly in that area exactly. That's a that's exactly it? I thought that was being sort of pooh-poohed and discouraged it is. Yeah Oh my goodness so and that was one of the things that I was thinking about too. I know Rick I believe you. Raise this as a possible Topic for our discussion today is how many reserves are closing off their boundaries for people that would be coming in often Like there's been lots of reference to Francis people who just come in to buy gas or tobacco products but also in Ontario and again elsewhere lot reserves have lease land where people own cottages and My community also My my my kids community They've shut down both to anybody who's non-resident and that would include cottagers. Uh so they've In some cases even tried to set up barricades to try to prevent people coming in Something I've been. Mindful is myself is just awareness of my privilege of being a able to work at home be having comparatively easy access to the Internet. And like I mentioned it really underscores the digital divide and just reinforces for me. The frankly that the idea that the Internet should become a public utility grounded in the concept of it being a human rights because consequences are similar to other types of what. I would call essential infrastructure. This is the interesting thing too. I mean we've talked about it on the program the inequitable and differential impact of this disease. So that's where my mind goes up. I'm also concerned for all of the roundtables. Frankly because you're all in academia and not to add to your stress mental stress load here but I'm hearing rumblings in Manitoba that provincial cuts are on their way. Everyone's being asked to figure out where they can slice and dice and pare back and so I mean provinces fund universities and. I'm just wondering what the implications are for everyone from from executives to support staff to faculty. It's not good. I'm very fortunate situation Where I'm literally sitting right now. I have like downtown in Edmonton. It's a well serviced area. There's a grocery store. Just two blocks away from me. That is the pre pandemic. Was you know wealth will start? It's en it's mostly well-stocked like it's there's nothing the shortages are those ridiculous shortages stuff like toilet paper and cleaning supplies that You know if people didn't horrid. We wouldn't have a problem but in terms what you're saying about universities wreck the government Slash universities budget Slash some of it retroactively Retroactively which means completely up ends any budgetary planning REC- had last year And now they have to like also assess what their plans for next year. And one of the things going to your your other two about the Internet as a public utility is they really are trying to push us to get out of the classroom but get more students. So we're looking at you. Know instructors who have to teach remotely so that requires yeah ineffective Internet that requires effective Internet for everyone involved a request for me as a professor at the university. Will I know for a fact? University will provide. They will go out of their way to make sure. I'm well equipped but there's no equal guarantee for the students if if they can access Internet. We assume that everyone has the same amount of gear going in. But you know we're going to require higher tech Kind of computers And that means there's another barrier you know such as the building barriers. Now there's other things that purchasing of consumer electronics and having the proper kind of equipment and having making sure you have access to the wireless or whatever can internet is going to be essential for any kind of learning outcome and we have. There's no guarantee that everyone has an equal playing field there. At least if you have a classroom and you have a full of students it can get all the students in the classroom. That level things out right. But if you're dealing remotely and you don't know what the home situations aren't dealing with students. Who HAVE PUFF SIBLINGS? Who need the Internet as well at the same time if you have a week. Internet in rural areas and sometimes they have weak Internet in cities It's it's just GonNa be a barrier that has that shouldn't be there some barrier recreating. It's not a barrier. That's essential isn't a barrier. That is part of sort of involving situation. This is a barrier. Were setting up and not not. We don't need to do this. We can find ways around this. I mean it's the same in Manitoba. I I know people are freaked out. About what the. Palsson government's GonNa do to universities and colleges there and then we have the Ford government which changed the Post Secondary Funding Formula. So it it seems like this is something that a lot of places are going to grapple with. And I know that's been. The fear is that there's going to be fewer faculty teaching more students and there's going to be like a huge and growing pool of markers or sort of people who are doing a lot of the critical labor that's required for universities and colleges to function but without the benefits and and salary that fulltime faculty members would have and that's been a trend that's been going on for a very long time but this disruption. I guess in how we live is going to exacerbate things rather than improve them right. Well we're supposed to have fun in this when we're well we're GONNA try. We'RE GONNA TRY. We're we. You wanted to explore coping. Strategies can yup so talks about that but but bearing in mind that because. I know some of them are going to be predicated on decent Internet access. So Oh they're going to be all predicated on decent all. Okay now you see. This is the thing I am not GonNa do. I am not going to say Ken does this. Therefore you do this and you'll be happy. No that's just that's not how this is GonNa work. I'm just going to tell you would be doing if you think that's a good idea. I I ask you to embrace it. Things were all built differently. Roll mostly built differently. And the stresses I'm dealing with are not distresses anybody else's dealing with because I'm what I'm saying is I'm not telling you I'm not. This is not an advice column from Ken. What's this is not this amazingly? This is not me giving advice. This is me just saying what I did. I'm in a good environment. I have sort of like built in personality. That doesn't mind being isolated for long periods of time. It's totally fine with me but also have access to stuff that allows me to cope right and I don't have children so I don't have that stress. A children have two. Cats are noisy and bug me. But they're fun and they actually you know they're they're fun to have around so my coping things have been like playing poker online with friends. Not for real money doing socials with friends and Also like I. I'm old school dungeons and dragons player in. There's a group of my friends who have play Variation of IT AND. I've been getting back into that. That's actually a lot of fun. So I have these things that allow me to get through this Relatively mentally and psychologically unscathed. So I'm I'm doing okay so you know that's what I've been doing and also I play video games. I play lots of video games. So that's something. I like doing a lot so I don't mind that. Yeah no I've done. I've done some zooming. I mean I am a little concerned about all the talk. We'll talk the the the discoveries that Zoom can actually be hacked depending on how public Publicly you share Access codes to it and the like but Seems to be all right. How about you? Brock what gets through through the day. What keeps you grounded while I think. I'm one of those people to that has had relatively minor shifts in terms of my daily routine as an academic many of us split time between the office in the classroom and working at home and this is the time of year that I'd be mostly at home. Anyway you know hold up Marking final papers and exams and whatnot So just in terms of like my my work There hasn't been too many adjustments. Other than the you know what our other topic about the unreliability of Internet access which has been a problem and in terms of coping. I for those of us who have little ones. I think like that is definitely part of trying to somehow keep optimistic and keep hopeful and not download too much of the scariness and all this onto our kids And that that can be Can be a bit of a challenge. I think because I for instance the last time I took my sign out shopping with me which was before It was already announced that the schools were going to close in But I didn't realize how seriously things were going to be shutting down. But he was standing with me at a Grocery Store and reading a tabloid headline that more or less proclaimed that. We're all going to die. And I noticed like just in terms of his body language. He wasn't facing me but you could just see him stiffen and stand there really rigidly and. I just followed his ailine and realize what got his attention and we were able to talk about it and I was trying to explain to him. What a tabloid was that essentially? That's exactly what it does is. Try To shock and and Sensationalize you sensationalized. Thank you and and that was helpful. I guess I. It seemed like that that moment pass. Yeah for those of us who are still in like caregiving role. Either to older people who I suppose would be have reason to be especially afraid right now or two young kids who to some extent hopefully Do not fully comprehend or need to comprehend what what's going on. I think that's a big part of it is like you'd kind of keep it together to make sure that those around you don't don't have to suffer and the other thing I'd add to. I mentioned it a couple of weeks ago when we spoke but Reading DOTS Denard Book. That I I saw also linked to our REC. The American Holocaust that that really talks about all those different epidemics to some extent at least intellectually. I've always been thinking like something like this could happen again. Like the way I interact with the world. I don't see a huge adjustment there. Yeah I mean I I certainly fear. For people who are elderly have compromised immune systems. Those are the folks that I think I I really hope are able to stay safe and aren't getting overwhelmed with with all the news we're getting bombarded with while. I have to ask on a personal note here at laughing because my mother if she hears this is GonNa be angry when this first started happening and she has rheumatoid arthritis so she's immuno-compromised because of the medication she has to take She was taking it seriously and my brother and I had to get mad at her and tell her like you've got a shelter in place. This is not a joke. There's a state of emergency and You're one of the people really at risk here. She it took a while for her to finally acknowledged that Change change that behavior and she's not GonNa let me telling you this story I did. I didn't know your mom listened. She does aikins mom man so well. You know as we've talked about in previous episodes the media it's role in all of this. I think is is a Certainly up for scrutiny Mindful that you know like everybody else. They're trying to grapple with with the novelty of of all of this. This is precedent at least in our lifetimes. But there's much about cove in nineteen that humanity's never faced. You Know How do you? How do you work that balance between keeping people up to speed without you know falling back on that all those old news values of trying to freak people out and use fear as as Click Bait? It's basically about getting your attention and sensational. Tabloids are in my opinion just in the most extreme version of that impulse of that imperative. And there's a lot of. There's a lot of information to juggle. And there's a lot of public health concept that the general populace and the media are just coming to grips with and I think they're kind of making it up as they go along in terms of how to be responsible purveyors of information I think an equal analogy is like when we watch mainstream media Try and cover anything indigenous. And how they kind of flail around you know pick on SORTA take put anyone in front of a Mike who sounds like they think has a valid opinion and they get the get messed up and the other thing too. Because there's like with indigenous history and stories and everything else there's complexity to it that you know by frustration with any media. Is that trying to find a way to articulate with what are the most important points without getting too bogged down with the details? At sort of aren't so black and white and with an evolving situation like we have with covert nineteen is. That's the exact same thing. We have to People media consumers say will what am I supposed to do and they get upset when you have scientists and health officials saying? We're you know we're still figuring this out. For instance the the the mask no mask debate. That raged early on is now being used by certain elements within within political elements to say ha the. Who does not know what you're talking about. They told us not to wear masks. telling us to wear masks and if everyone remembers correctly a back it was actually wasn't the mass. No mask was like if you're going to wear a mask where it properly. These are the proper way to do it. And there's really And the other thing is you're GONNA don't horrid mass. That people in the health field are going to need to protect themselves when they're start treating people with this like this that was the complexity but it's been dissolved down to whol said. Don't wear mass all these doctors. That don't wear masks then. That's not entirely the truth. I think there's an expectation that the media will have the most correct information available on the other hand like you say what is considered correct is evolving with the understanding of how the disease itself works. And so what's right yesterday? Could be not quite right tomorrow. And so how do you try to tell that story? When it seems we've been primed to expect things to be cut and dry and this is this is anything but you're absolutely right. Can I mean there is a proper way to wear a mask? Chances are a lot of people will do it. Improperly making things potentially worse if only because people go around thinking oh all I have to wear a mask and I'm good and it's like no. It's actually a mask plus continuing social distancing that is key here like I mean it's not it's it's not as if one takes over from the other the the to have to work in tandem yes completely exactly but but I do want to in terms of media sources. I mean. I'm still working for them. So I guess I have to do a disclosure But it's extremely part-time ABC News. I feel they've done a great job of trying to tell story. I mean all journalists To varying degrees are are are putting themselves in harm's way I mean they and I guess that's an that's an interesting discussion Maybe not here but you know it is information. Essential Service in terms of media sources. Anyway they have a dedicated portion of their site. Abc News Dot ca slash covert nineteen and They've been responsive to questions and answers from their audience and so since. This is an episode about coping What do we talk about the question? What advice you have for people who are having trouble coping As I say part of the QNA here from APN so they spoke to Dr Knell. Wyman the first ever indigenous psychiatrists in Canada and So what why? Don't we test this out if you don't mind Brock here's here's Dr Wimax answer and we're going to a week. We can each do it. You ever find yourself in a really panicky moment. There's a couple of different grounding exercises people can do and the one she talks about is five four three two one and what it's supposed to do is it just takes you out of your mind and just grounds you on on your feet so to speak. So what you do. The five is name five things brock that you can see in your immediate environment. You answer them right now as we go through. Sorry I didn't make that clear. No no it was. It was kinda clear I just. I wasn't sure if you're going to read through the whole list. I Dunno knowing you do it sequentially all right so I wanted to take the load off you and in terms of reading the rules and I'll be your master of ceremonies here so frocks. I want you to name five things. You can see in your immediate environment okay. Hopefully the through the window counts as immediate and so I see maple trees. Snow covered hill laundry hamper my computer and my phone okay. I want you to name four things that you can feel or touch G my I guess the clothes I'm wearing you'll be glad to do this. Podcast in the nude avenues. Anything I'm sitting on the corner of the bed and I can feel the floor and I got a headset on for the podcast. Was that four okay. Last wore the Bali divorce. That's what's happening now and the and the headphones okay. I want you to name three things that you're currently hearing can rick and then the Internet the soft buzzer the Internet to two things that you smell the floor. Perhaps most likely my own breath. I noticed when I went out yesterday wearing a mask that I could totally smell my own. Breath out wasn't so pleasant breath met with you. Yeah I'm just in the bedrooms. I guess it'd be like betting like for Breeze. And Yeah that's it. I can see toothpaste sense. I know that has its. That's good you have a sense of smell because it's one of the symptoms isn't it? Yes yes those that are. Symptomatic is a loss of a sense of smell. And then finally say one thing about yourself that you feel positive about. I can breathe I. That's something that's been on my mind for sure is when you hear the accounts of people talking about how the yeah the only affects something. That part sounds really terrifying and So just to finish out the response by Dr Wyman This five four three two one exercise should only take ten seconds. Unless you're doing it on a podcast and as long as people do some deep breathing at the same time it just takes people away from that peak anxiety or distress. You may be feeling so. That's just an example of of some of the great QNA's driven by the audience Other examples include. Where should I get my information about? Covert what are some ways? We can reduce panic anxiety and fear. How can we maintain mental health and wellness through this period What are some ways? People in the North can prepare is bleach just as good at killing corona virus in the absence. Lysol questions like that. What do you think can are you gonNA are? You GonNa do the five four three two one now no well. I know what those exercises are are fortunate. I'm very very fortunate. I don't suffer from panic attacks but I know that those those exercises are very helpful. I tend to like a can't 'cause I guess because it's my other career as a playwright. I'm a procrastinator. The worst of the worst nine so I've actually developed over the twenty plus years have been at this business Many many effective ways of distracting myself and CAN TMI. Here Buddy No. I'm worried where this is going to do dishes. I'll I'll I'll say something other than the project I'm supposed to be writing on. I'll read a book that you know is not even relevant to what I'm doing or it's almost like I've done a created. A sense of how does not get the how to go around. The job must be doing just doing the job. I'm doing so Again at comes from a point because I am employed. I am privileged that way and I am privileged to be in a very service while service the part of the city. So part of coping I think is focusing on the positive Something that that I'm optimistic about is Still ON ABC. Incite the headline of a story. Health Canada proves new rapid test for cove in nineteen basically. What's great about the test? Is that it self contained. You don't have to send the sample off to a lab. Probably Winnipeg in order to verify one way or the other positive or negative. The thing too is though it from what I understand it. It's a rapid test from the perspective of sending something away and having a comeback a couple of days later but the test in and of itself. you can only do one at a time but since most communities are on the small end what is it still seventy percent of communities are under five hundred people so the question of course will be how many of the tests are ordered. How quickly they're ruled out. How many communities? Watch get them in short order. So it's it's one of the three t's right testing treating and tracking to me. That's that's good news that that technology is going to happen again. The Devil's in the details and roll out is the big thing so well. My pick for a positive story would be an initiative coming out of Quebec Jane's bakery and it's a an agreement between the cree trappers association one of the local regional governments to provide funding for families to go out on the land and and participate in Goose Hunt earlier than usual and then also to stay out longer with the expectation that it would help protect them from infection and so I think that's something I'm looking for in terms of like sifting through all the news. Not just the you know how many people are getting sick. Which is extremely important. But I think that's being quite well covered but some of the the creative ways that also fit in with other attempts by our communities to indigenization decolonize. Whatever get back to the land like those. Those kinds of initiatives I find really heartening. And maybe that's something that we talk about in. The future is like some of the ways that indigenous people are not just coping but sort of taking proactive initiatives and I've I've heard other people. Anecdotally talked about spending more time outdoor spending more time with their families. Like I mean again. That's that that's relative privilege. You could point to 'cause there's a lot of people who are suffering the opposite like if you live in a high density urban area you. You actually are more restricted terms of being able to go outside but for those of us who live in are more. Remote places certainly. There's an opportunity to do that. You know get out When they were still ice get out ice fishing or TAP. Maple trees go hunting. So I think those are things that I'm looking for is being sort of positive signs in all of this my Theater friends have been like right now. as we're recording this Mike good friend Herbie Barnes is performing a solo show. That was written by another friend of ours. Darrell Dennis and he's doing live online Wow other cedar friends who've been doing monologues and and posting them the theater community is still trying to create theatre even though like our buildings have been closed and and a lot of projects that a through line that a lot of people are writing. Lost a GIG rights is lost. Another GEIC lost another gig. Because that's how they string together any kind of income over the year and we you know we just lost the fringe theatre festival this year. So people are trying their best to find ways to keep each other's spirits up by performing plays and you know the National Arts Centre has committed money to Having Artists Perform and then they upload in in the National Arts Centre broadcast it essentially over the Internet so these are the things that keep me like positive is that creative people are still being creative. You're finding ways to respond so there's a sense diary to this. There's a creative diary to what happened. And I'm part of a tip because the Senate L. Theater here in town is doing a series of short videos for Youtube goal stuck in the house and they're asking the theater artists that they work with you. Just explain what your day is like now right that we're still a community even though we can't physically see in touch one another that we're still connected and that to me is something that is positive because I you know. These tools to talk to people have been around before the pandemic but I've relied upon them quite a lot to reach out and stay connected with people who normally would only see once or twice a year Only time really see them. And so this is Ben in that aspect I think reaffirming a lot of strong reaffirming strong connections and make them stronger through this. Well we might even say a whole new genre emerge of a play like performance. That's done completely on zoomed for example. I don't know if you remember that Episode of modern family. It was in the sixth season. Evidently yeah where everything was was entirely shot on on mobile devices or the the screen of a Mac Book. So that was the that was the facetime ad brought to you by a total product placement. Yeah I know some people hate that. It's like Oh look it's the costco episodes. Yeah exactly right. So yeah I'm I'm actually There have been some positive things coming out of that. So so why don't we Can I you know when we're banding about ideas for what we might talk about. A question on your mind is. It's very tempting especially for for a kind of wild imagination like mine to kind of make broad almost hyperbolic statements but we was going to be living in an era where no hyperbole can keep up still. I would like to say this changes everything but I I I. I'm not so sure it will change quite everything. It may change some things and leave intact others thinking of our current Economic System. We call capitalism Some are like it's done. Oh it is so done right and and others are saying no this is actually opens the door for getting worse but every day that goes by with this Corona Normal. It makes me wonder if it brings us a day close to something else. Predicting anything is is is fraught at the best of times but with so much uncertainty and so many things we still yet to learn about covert. I'm just wondering where we go from here. Wherever here is one of the things. I'm thinking is a good possibility of happening because we do see the criticism of public health officials Happening now is that the success that we attain from not spreading the that spreading the virus because we all sheltered in place. We all did these things as a group like society answered the call I think largely most Canadians are are like following this willingly And then we see that the infection rate doesn't go as high while it's because we did the right thing. We saved ourselves with this mass behavior. Yeah but you're GONNA see criticism. The the the postmortem of this whether it happens in six months or a year or two years they're gonNA go while scientists didn't give us the right answers right away and I think what we need. What I hope happens is that we get a more comprehensive discussion about how science works. How Public Health Works? You're right. I think that needs to be a discussion of everything that we sort of rely upon like Kobe. Nineteen doesn't care what's going to happen elsewhere. We we still have the regular stresses happening. We started we solve climate. Change to deal with. We still have an economy that has devastated By the by low super super low oil prices Which are GONNA REMAIN? Low covert or not So we need these other discussions to happen. And it's going to center around double guessing in triple guessing armchair quarterbacking later on what we did to save ourselves as as a as a country and just be just going to be that inevitable group on one percent like we can afford to lose one percent. I'm this and I'm going. No NO WE CAN'T. We can't think like that. We think that it turns into arguments about eugenics and that to me is that I hope we avoid that But economics wise. I can't say that we're going to we didn't smarten up after the two thousand eight collapse. We've never really challenged neoliberal capitalism. Maybe we'll get a new deal out of this like they did after the depression. But I'm not banking on it. You know cutbacks to health care because they talk about one of the struggles with with Kovic is a surge in cases will that surge has amplified when you've cut the capacity of your healthcare system right now that's the whole point. I think you know. What does an economy look like? If public health practices are four fronted and prioritized can capitalism and rigorous public health coexist? That's what I'm curious about. I mean an end. Where do indigenous interests shakeout in all of this and as we've talked about before the whole fight against Trans Mountain the fight against all these fossil fuel projects covert has been a a killer of these projects? Well Yeah see that was. That was one of the things I remember with back to. Other what was affecting the oil industry in this country concerning pipelines and stuff and that was actually shocked that it wasn't my activism leading the way those isolated just Economics you know. I guess my mind sell spinning where it was two weeks ago the last time. We did our our recording together. Because I still feel exactly the same like I'm still sort of sitting here in shock. I'm waiting for this to end. I keep thinking that what's happening. Now cannot continue indefinitely and and there's just little bits of Fear that creeps in every once in a while when you hear about Like food supply for instance Just there is in the news that apparently like for North America. The need supply Whether it's for for beef or or pork products like both of those are under strain and they've been predicting the same thing for a lot of vegetables and fruit production because that many of the the labor forces that are used for that may be restricted. Like because so many of them are undocumented workers coming from the south that they won't be available so you're actually looking at the the food supply so becomes something about food insecurity in places where it's been more or less taken for granted now a lot of indigenous people. I think we've become accustomed to that in terms of northern remote communities also people who struggle with poverty wherever that occurs urban areas included. But the the thing that I was reading about this morning was a breakdown of the tax breaks that were passed in the US. And I know one of the stories. Oh Gosh like when they're saying for people who had incomes of over a million dollars they're looking at these massive attacks deferments that would be retroactive as well so it looks like that two trillion dollar package as was feared was just like a disgusting giveaway of wealth. Another story that was kind of connected to that was the the trump white house was initially refusing spending any money that would be a dedicated specifically to Indigenous people like to tribal governments in the United States. So it seems like this is like this is really going to take months years to track and uncover exactly what's going on and and so in some ways it's almost like this is going to accelerate and worsen those disparities or inequities that we've talked about so often before I mean that potential is always there. I mean I guess what gives me hope. Is that the essential nature of the Labor performed by people who work in the food industry. People work in health. I mean these people have have had have been pummeled when it comes to their wages when it comes to cuts to their sector and everyone's had a complete sea change. I mean you know. The Sea change of events has has changed people's outlook on that. And I guess the question is can that be leveraged and leveraged in a way that that people organized together collectively to push for better working conditions and safety and and redistribution of wealth? One of the reasons why. I'm so am kind of skeptical of this is that there's going to be massive changes. Because have you ever lent anybody money? But they really needed it. Sure Hell often thank you afterwards. It's like that's what essential workers did they just they they. They sacrificed and let their bodies to this thing. And there's there's going to be no big thank you there's GonNa be no big heroes. Welcome to them. There's GonNa be no parade unless there's a massive shift and I don't send a massive shift yet right And I think what will happen is. We're going to run into shelter in place fatigue. I Yeah I'm usually Usually a more positive guidance but just kind of cynical boat. Help people are Mass situation and you know I am not saying anything truly unfortunately very original right this moment but There's a push for normal. There's a push to go back is always make things the way they are. And that's coming in and it's not just coming from you know wealthy elites it's coming from a lot of people who just are used to normal. They're used to that right. It's what you're used to is the devil. They know when they want that double back because the devil they don't know they got it's going to cause a some kind of upheaval and people will stress and push for. What makes them comfortable before they accept? What makes them uncomfortable as being a better solution? That's just the way it is you have a satanic outlook on things say havoc while the the devil you know is okay business leaving. Satan so calm down conduct Ken. I want you to name five things you can see in your immediate environment Jason Kenney literally on my computer screen right now. Oh Gosh that's unfortunate. You might have to name ten things just to compensate. I can see the ledge from where I live raise. It doesn't really help the legislature. The government of old Berta owed better. Okay so all right well boy. Lots to think about a different kind of show. As I've been saying Kinda repeatedly in some ways we're all in the same spot. I think anyone who tries to speak authoritatively and confidently In some ways is exposing just how little they may know. It's a it's a time of great uncertainty and I think we need the requisite humility. I think to go along with that and will leave it as a question. Rhetorically as to whether politics lends itself to that type of approach conversation Or whether the media's is fit for purpose in that regard to I mean that's a phrase that keeps coming to my mind. Frankly is fit for purpose or unfit for purposes. The case may be and I think. Gosh whatever you're talking about in the social economic realm I think everything is everything's being cracked open but it will probably be re threaded back together. You know this kind of ungainly unseemly way but as you mentioned can I mean we're living in Satanic Times no no but Thanks thanks fitting that on well. Let's hope a little bit of having we got there somehow someway. Are you GONNA Hughes Corona Virus? With Your Voice. Right Reverend Rick. Expect fire and brimstone from Heyman. All right folks you have. A what day is it today. I was GonNa say have a good weekend. It's Wednesday to have a good rest of the week and we'll talk to you in a couple of you guys. That's IT FOR MEDIA AND DIGITAL EPISODE. Two hundred five recorded the afternoon of Wednesday April Fifteenth. Two Thousand Twenty. Thanks again to Ken. Williams assistant professor with the University of Alberta Department of drama can to Brock Pittawan aquatic associate professor of indigenous studies at York University Creative Commons music. This episode includes Surreal Forest performed by the artist. May Dan. I'm Riccar. Thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again soon Our theme is nesting by Bureaucratic John.

Rick Ken Winnipeg Edmonton Brock associate professor Manitoba Grocery Store Canada Netflix professor Ben Kim Dr Wyman Rick Chaikin Ken Williams Assistant Profess
Leisure Suit Larry w/ Eva Anderson

How Did This Get Played?

1:12:07 hr | 1 year ago

Leisure Suit Larry w/ Eva Anderson

"And a lot of our fan mail has said that they want to know a little bit more about you. Oh how about that okay. Let's see i've been divorced three times. My personal heroes ronald reagan and my favorite movie is porky's revenge. Oh then what's your favorite video game. We play lewd grown and click adventure game leisure suit. Larry reloaded this week on out of this get played <music> <music> <music> welcome to how to this get played the show where we discussed the worst i and weirdest video games of all time i'm nick wider alongside heather and gamble. I'm fucking heather anne campbell this is <hes> matt <hes> poor dot com hi everybody any boy would just completely different moods from you guys today like this one will well we got. We got other things we can discuss. We don't have to completely stew in just this game. Which is the first entry in the long running leisure suit larry series the full title leisure suit larry in the land of the lounge lizards is a graphic adventure game designed by al lowe and first published by sierra online for home computer in nineteen eighty-seven is an adult themed comedic softcore porn game where the player controls the titular leisure suit larry horny thirty eight year old virgin attempts to have intercourse with an array of digitally rendered women and <hes> the medically. Maybe we can understand why you might not appreciate it but i'm wondering what our guests thought is a tv writer from your the worst and briar patch will just coming soon to a u._s._a. Eva anderson high eva guys thank you for being here even know that you are that you are a gamer and best specifically regarding bad games is which is the mostly the topic of this podcast you own one of the most reviled systems ever as a kid the philips cd. I did wow now. I also had a sega cd. Hold on. That's a good system. That's a good system yeah. That's a good system with bad games. What are you talking about. No no no no sonic cd snatcher heart of the alien psychic detective why dracula unleashed play oh. I don't know those one there was some garbage and sega cd on all platforms but the cd. I it feels like was like all garbage right. Were there any good games on the cd. I well the one that the the one that launched the system that i did be was called burn cycle and remember there was like commercials of where it was like a dead beat on a bus harassing harassing people about plane burn cycle and phil hartmann. Did the commercials wow yeah. We're phil yeah. I love that guy. He played all these as different characters in the c._d._i. Commercials burn cycle was like their bladerunner go into like the cyber say yeah it was fine. I mean it was as good as things could be with like at that time but <hes> but yeah and it was like a very very blade runner he rip off right. It was actually more of a strange today's rip-off sickly so like first person rape sequences you plug into people's memories and stuff like that that's wild yeah. We did have the zelda one of the games which is still like my brother and i would just watch the opening cut scene over and over again right and it was like before you to you had had something like that you're like i can't believe this exists and i can't talk to anyone about it because no one else in the world has the system or this game so these terrible zelda l. to cuts so crazy they were. They were like these fully. They were like two. D animated very crudely in. It sounds like you're lying yeah yeah. There's no way that other kids who believe leave here. That's my dad go house as my dad you put a c._d. In it like a like a music cd plays okay. It's bad zell though okay. It's just a weird king ray man i was watching some of those the other night and they're just very very funny and then the game play which is impossible so i never even got past the first the first ah cussing because i couldn't move forward in the game at all because it was so hard to play so you had there was there was wonda gamble on and you had the sequel was it faces of evil faces of evil and they're both like like just a wretched and the art style is so owners are usually beautiful games. These games just look like absolute shit one of the worse looking games i've ever seen it's <hes> it's amazing that nintendo who is so protective of licensing their intellectual property actually may be part of part of why they became like like that was because of the c._d._i. Probably the one two punch of that in the super mario brothers movie jesus christ to be careful. They must've thought every other a country that took on like. We're just nuts right. His phillips is a <hes> is a dutch company. <hes> <hes> i know this because i lived in amsterdam for a short while i was the voice of phillips in europe. Whoa something new every time we do the podcast. Did you have any tagline commercials you remember. I <hes> the phillips new pixel plus flat t._v. seymour something like that that's crazy. I want to now because you told me to tease old now you don't need to did you get a philip free philips cd i out of the deal. No i didn't and i also didn't get a phillips flat screen out of the deal a new recurring a recurring advertising bit on this show is going to be how i helped sell products. Let's lebron now too. <hes> too graphic adventures the genre began being called point and click adventures. The mouse injured the picture but but that was a the sierra was a big developer lucas arts. Where was the other big developer of the time. There were other ones but do you guys played point. Click adventures sure you did you play those games growing up at all almost exclusively almost exclusively wow okay. I was a hardcore adventure gamer. I went straight from like infocomm text based games right into the first like hyper card games that were adventures and then right into point and click as soon as i could and you're playing like the early sierra ones where it was or or like i think maniac mansion to is like text parsing adventure where you're typing to <hes> to move your character. I liked the tea so i played sierra games was also and i liked the text entry versions and when it switched to point and click. I disengaged oh interesting but i can't tell it what to do. I don't wanna i just point at something like once. They remade kings quest. I was out. You felt like that. Your options were more research. I mean you had the same number of things you could do you but it felt like your options were more restricted because we're being given parameters to operate within yeah. I mean like there's like pickup. Rock touch right pushed jewish rock instead you had like a hand cursor and you would just interact limiting the other side of it though i think the first game i be that was appointed. Click or an adventure game. Graphic adventure game was police quest one also written by owl low and it was a part where i got uh. I got stuck in it. I was probably like eleven ten eleven years old and i had to call the hint line which was a nine hundred number off expense and the reason is an i couldn't move forward in the game because i had to tell a guy was typing kind to say hit. The dirt hit the dirt at if someone you get you get killed by them. She's and so. It's like okay so you're supposed to. They'll usually just guess what words are supposed to type into it. It's not intuitive then it becomes the hardest game in the world. That's how so like. I had one friend who had one french. I had one friend who also played kings quest and we would like get in touch with each other and be like. Have you tried this. Have you tried this and we would make we were like doubling up our lists of like how to beat a thing yeah. That's awesome great. Yeah i mean those. I mean the the days where you would make a physical map app like on graph paper. You know those are the love that stuff is just part of the game's interface our or menu screens but it there was a there was something that to having to like actually right co write things down on like whether they were codes or whether they were clues or whether they were just like <hes> it was just a log of your actions on actual paper to track what you were doing so. It sounds like you're both in the sierra camp because i was very much in the lucas arts camp. Those are the games. I was playing. I loved lucas more. I thought oh okay. I mean i mean once. I got access to those i was like. This is the real the real shit right here right. It was like 'cause you know it's kind of at the same time. The console wars were happening. The nintendo ndo versus sega side of things there was in the p._c. Gaming in that in the the adventure genre like there was this lucas arts versus sierra sort of thing like the lucas arts. It's games were maybe a little bit more cartoony and accessible and the sierra games or a little bit more adult and like you could die in the sierra games which you really couldn't in the lucas arts games yeah <hes> but <hes> do you have any favorites from that era <hes> monkey island when i think the gold standard i also liked loom which was another very odd lucasfilm game and and i liked the first indiana jones and the last crusade on the other end of things on sierra. I think the best yard game was gabriel knight. Oh yeah okay the first one yeah real good and that that got really bad really fast also just 'cause i was like i liked history. There was a gold rush sierra the game where you <hes> traveled across the country and dug for gold die of cholera a lot of the time or or just other diseases <hes> yeah yeah and i i play police quest one. I played several of the kings quest says and <hes> yeah. I love the monkey islands as well. I loved. I loved left maniac mansion to tentacle. Those are my favorites. I couldn't play the lucas arts games. 'cause my computer couldn't do it. <hes> i was stuck with like the the original text entry rate sierra games because my computer's terrible yeah that was it you do if you were hardware limited in those days <hes> yeah. There wasn't a lot you could play. I had a there was a game that also was an aloe sierra game called freddie farkas frontier pharmacists that do you had that okay because that was a game i wanted and i tried to convince my dad because my mom was a nurse that we should buy it for my mom for her birthday. Ah yeah it didn't work scheme. That scheme did deny scheme failed <hes> but yeah i like. I do really like this genre and it is something that it kind of went away for a little bit and then i feel like now in the kind of <hes> in the air where you have like steam games and then also there. There's so many touch interfaces races you know what a tablets and phones obviously it's kind of had something of a resurgence like you see more of these games or just like that's basically the only your activity no. We're not allowed to talk about good games. Have you guys played. I think it's sword and sorcery or just maybe it's sorcery. It's an ipad game like a touch a touch based interface. That's looks looks like a sierra game old one and it's fantastic. I recommended now yeah. It's like it's the first thing thing that i got when i got my ipad. Okay mark that out of the episode because yeah no sorry. Did you play them but we park the new game by the guys who did monkey island. Oh that's right and it's great. It came out last year or two years ago awesome. Let's kick started. Oh yeah hey hey and speaking kick-started. That was how leisure suit larry reloaded the remake was funded in fact they said it was the first successful they advertised advertised as the first successful major video game to be released with funding from kickstarter but the original leaders suit larry was released in one thousand nine hundred seven the version and this was the the the graphic adventure that this is the one that used text entry text parsing all also by the originally suit larry was a remake of a nineteen eighty. One game called soft porn adventure. There was a text adventure. I have that you have soft porn adventure yeah. Oh my wow they have it on boxer. I down. I found it on some abandoned. Where site have you hide it. No i haven't i just sitting in my little f- <hes> file the cover of that game features <unk> a naked roberta williams really yeah they shot. I'm serious. They shot the kleiner sub. It's the yeah one of the designer like one one of the famous and then roberta williams sierra and they had like a hot tub in their apartment or house and so it's like three women one of them is roberta williams topless and then they got a waiter from around the corner to like come come over and he was like standing by the hot tub and they show like a friend took the photo and that's the cover. That's insane as true. I was thinking about this because i don't know if it was like they were. We were in the packaging for sierra games or if there was some sort of magazine but i knew these people like i knew roberta williams i knew aloe was my whole life. I knew he had a beard. I really had to played a saxophone and i knew he was like a kind of a fun guy and i just had a picture of him in my head even like engaging with this game. I was like oh yeah aloe. Oh yeah i remember there. There was well. I mean a lot of times. I think that was part of the of computer gaming specifically as they put someone's name kind of front and center because roberta williams was kind of all over the packaging the sierra games that she developed and <hes> <hes> you know sid meier obviously off the civilization series but then also like like ron gilbert for for lucas arts. Tim schafer shaefer like those are yeah. Those are also like names that you would just know it was like oh yeah. These guys made these games which is kind of rare in video gaming the guy who did <hes> doom and went onto make dot dot cgi tanya dot co <hes> john romero. Yes the first one that i remember being like oh. This is a name rate yeah. <hes> roberta williams uh-huh thing is so crazy 'cause like the that makes me also think like oh. The kindle roberta williams hot tubs stories just like these some of these video game developers way that were just like dorks. Were just like weird like swingers swingers that imply. I think they just needed cover up. Can you pull of the cover art for soft porn. Adventures played as soon as i get com parody series called fuck west. Oh the quest. I played all three questions recently or as a kid the last ten years it's like getting an emulator. See this photo of this thing. That's that's that's where we're currently looking at the the hot tub okay so they they honestly like the the art direction action is pretty good for something that they just shot in their house. It looks like a real location. Well it was it was their house. Nobody means. It doesn't look like a house you fucking imagine going to like a computer game in store and seeing you you topless in a hot tub. That was your house like on the shelf rate. That is fucking crazy. I'd be disoriented. I guys remember the days when you were always ready to go. Increase your performance and get that extra confidence governance in bed with blue dot com blue. That's blue. The colour brings you the first shula bowl with the same f._d._a. 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Have you played the leisure suit larry games before we here's the thing i played all those other games but leisure suit larry was like a weird forbidden in game right. I feel like the only way you could get close to it. When i was a kid was you'd have to go to the house of somebody whose parents were divorced and their dad usually had it there. Big brother are you had hoped for a horny dad or big bro like the the horny dad who like the odd horny dad playboys in his desk. You can look at <hes>. I i <hes> yeah. I i remember my memory of leisure suit. Larry was there was a video rental store. A chain by my house called the warehouse the house and they had a small computer game section and they had leisure suit larry there and it was just sitting on the shelves for years but remember i would use to go well. My dad was like browsing using for video for videos and i would just like look at the box for leisure suit larry because it had like a a still of that scene where the one of the women is in like a hot tub job and like her breasts are just like covered by bubbles which is like look at it and imagine playing this game yeah but knowing that i could i would never get a chance to i recently found a childhood diary of mine in where i was going to go to a house that had leaders larry the next day and i was scared and i wrote about it. I was like i'm i'm going to play the game. What am i going to do and i just had this guy corrupting this feeling of there being like a corrupting influence it was like pornography or anything like that and i did end up playing and beating a few years ago and i also played the sequels shape up or slip out okay which is at a like a club med type place so yeah like the original. I didn't play reloaded. I played the original. I downloaded like a rom played it all the way through wow yeah so we we mentioned <hes> we mentioned out low <hes> this would this game like kind of came out without a lot of fanfare but then ended up being the sleeper hit and and as you mentioned it had a a bunch of sequels and number spinoff games you know the thing that you mentioned about like nobody having it except for dads and brothers and stuff like that was like there were more pirated it'd copies of leisure suit larry than there were actual copies sold and they know this because at one point they were <hes> i read an interview this week and and <hes> i think it was also said that <hes> they were selling more guidebooks than they work hobbies of the game and then additionally this is nuts. That's one of the pirated copies of the game had a virus on it and the banks in switzerland and germany got hacked in the al now because if you beat the game wipe the bank account and they didn't so there's a there's a there's a old uses several newspaper articles on the topic from the united kingdom are the new accountant and financial times and here's a little bit from that is <hes> mr mcleod explained that the virus is contained in the code of leisure suit larry's program when the diskette would the game is loaded into the computer the virus copies itself in the hard disk after predetermined time or certain amount have used the virus obliterates all data stored on the hard disk and they had to make <hes> an announcement that it wasn't the actual edition of leisure suit larry the virus on it. It was only the pirated version. Oh my god that's so crazy yeah and it was only if you beat the game. It looks it yeah yeah. I mean there's just so hard to do. A leading london merchant bank said it had called in computer security consultants to check its network. The bank knew of a number of employees is playing leisure suit larry but no problems had yet been found <hes> wow man that's crazy <hes> yeah so it had the so after the so the original version was just sixteen color color graphics and then they had a remake in nineteen ninety-one. That was a big graphical step up <hes> v._g._a. Graphics so two hundred fifty six colors and we mentioned reloaded which ed came out in two thousand thirteen kickstarter funded h._d. Graphics voice acting for the first time in that game in the series and i will say that like having played all love reloaded and having watched play throughs of of the virgin and the b._g. Remake and i'm sure you can comment on this too but the script has been tweaked and a quote unquote punched up with each entry like the game. The game is a little bit different. There's i think they just crammed more jokes with each iteration yeah but then there's other things like i was playing it and i was getting to the part where you had a drug the girl to make oh yeah and i was like it's not gonna be spanish fly. This is like two thousand and whatever and then it was spanish initiative so they didn't come up with a new drug girl with now and no one's talked about spanish fly since nineteen eighty seven yeah. It's not like like you would think thing like oh. Maybe they'll get. It'll be like a party drug or something and not something me yeah not something with the connotation of like oh. This is going to knock somebody out or but what is that what spanish play desert just make you horny. Let's make super super horny okay. The craziest fucking joke for me was when the in the convenience store they they made harvey weinstein joe. Yes that's insane because that was one that was obviously not in the original game. I was like i was like first off to pull that dude's name. It wasn't a sex joke. It was like the there was a wine called harvey stein or something harvey weinstein wine yeah but like of all the names in the world to pull if fell if felt pointed and joe like yeah it felt like hey we know some stuff. I have a clip of it because i and i titled this clip. Welcome to the come and go. Please keep your hands where like this is just my life. Do i hope to smell anything again as file as your present exhibitions and then so that's the commune star guy now he's looking at wine party stein wine. I don't like it as much as napa valley out house but it is a brilliant and syrupy so yikes yeah very strange choice. Do is this the equivalent of like hannibal burris calling out bill cosby onstage like this. This knocked over the offers domino leisure suit larry made it known that harvey weinstein was a bad man. We stand a woking. Did you guys look look into. I sent you a link to this aloes comedy club because this is what made me think he he knows a comedian yet could be because he he dropped an a <hes> like an i._o._s. App called aloes comedy club which has been taken off the store and i couldn't find but it's just it just says it's veteran comedian chuck myers and just doing like four hours of jokes or my god and you could kind of go through them by category teaches teaches you how to tell them the right way and i was like i was wondering if maybe he was the guy in the nightclub. That was just telling really long. Rambling joe could be that could very well. I'll be the case because i wonder if if if that is that same comedian boy that is that really bums me think about that sad. I wanted it so so bad as soon as i read about it and we'll go with. I'd never existed. I was like did i. I have it here and they're like no. We don't know that go away yeah. Oh man it's really bad. I feel like if if if you've never played leisure suit larry or kings quest game that you may not have any understanding the of what we're talking about your so i feel like it's important to describe that the screen you're seeing is like a little dude onscreen whether it's the reloaded version of the original version and you walk doc around in the world and you interact with everything like there's like eight to ten different ways to interact you can touch taste smell. Everything look at everything like that's. That's the way it's been peon thank p._m. Things one of the one of the ways you can interact as you take out your dick like this the zipper you click zipper and he takes out his dick so the first thing you can do in the game is just take your dick out yeah but that's what the game is gonna get the fucking see it also like the lewdness is like immediate like his like. What do you call the cycle where somebody's just just like waiting to do something like sonic tapping idle animations <unk> idle animation is adjusting his crotch do anything he adjusts his crotch and then you go inside out of a bar <hes> one thing that struck me playing this game and having played a lot of lucas arts games i play. I played one of the kings quest. They didn't play a lot of sierra. Games is but i will always disoriented by how easy it was to die. In these games now arbitrary it seems and that's definitely the case in leisure suit larry you can you can just walk like walk off screen green in the wrong direction all of a sudden. You're an alley and you get beaten to death. Just like there is no. I was just exploring. The environment had no idea that this was going to be like. It's not like a pit. It's not like there's a clue. Do you go down here. Something bad might happen just another part of the environment to explore if you pay the cab driver or the convenience store worker which is a cumbersome thing that you may not think to do if you played modern games where these transactions take place automatically you have to actually click on your wallet and then click on the guy to give him enough money before you get out of the environment they they will kill you murder you or the worker will shoot you in the face. That was the only time i laughed. Ah let us know shoots like yeah. It's fucking gnarly can also die by flushing the toilet at happened camelia shit water yeah. Did you have sex without a condom yup and diet committee wait wait. I thought so you get get like a isn't there like a like. A what do you call an achievement screen. That's like wow screwing without a condom in the eighties. It's real risky. Larry like which is an h._i._v. joe lake. It's a joke about like hey it's the eighties so now you're gonna a die of the and that's the funny part of the joke and all the most of the jokes are in the pun area so the way the game starts off as you get age verification quizzed that i think was very novel at the time it's semi fun where it's just a bunch of pop culture questions to make sure you're actually eighteen me you know reverend seeing like beer commercials and and movies of <hes> of a certain generation you love homework though so i love homework so i struggled added i had to use a fact doc for that and then you and then you get then larry is in sturgeon general's warning. That's like that's like the first fun you get yeah and you start a new game and then larry is in the city of lost wages so man just ain't it the truth. You're just cringing immediately. The <hes> the thrust of the game is an a. Use thrust with purpose you you try to seduce a series of different women. They're four of them. In the original game aimed they added an extra one in reloaded. I guess they hit their kickstarter or whatever their benchmark was <hes> and you're basically walking through wages to going to all these different locations lefties bar are is where you start off. There's a casino a wedding chapel convenience store which we mentioned by the way the convenience store in the original game is called quickie mart which is just the name of the simpsons mm since late. Oh fuck come doesn't come before they came before the simpsons but it just called quickie mart so coincidentally or simpson's ripped it off simpson's ripped it usually usually at simpson's did it but it took it took it from leisure suit larry is it like quickie quickie the sack and in the in reloaded they renamed it the come and go now by the way the casino reloaded they called they called it's like caesar's palace caesar's palace and the disco tack they call clubs sixty nine and and just a series of single entendre yeah why not just be like here's the foot bar drink. Yeah i mean fuck. The legend is back. Get ready to return to a lost era of danger and also glory world of warcraft classic lunches. Globally on august twenty-seventh blizzard entertainment has been hard at work restoring and recreating the original world of asraf as it wasn't his earliest days just as you remember it right right down to the last painstaking detail whether you're out to reclaim past glory or sitting out on this journey for the very first time <hes> how i envy you you'll be able to relive the stories stories and adventures that shaped fifteen years of as a roth history gather up a party to explore the depths of black rock gear up to face the fire lord in the molten core and choose your side in the endless player versus player conflict between the horde and alliance in hills brad. 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How did this get played so when you interact with one of the women and there's basically like kind of how you go <hes> you progress through the game when you were acting with one of the women that that larry is trying to sleep with you get like this very very detailed up-close first person shot where it's just kind of like you're just seeing them like from the chest up and these these very these very bosomy women <hes> <hes> in all versions of the game rendered in impressive detail for whatever era they were being made and it's this is clearly like the developer spent some time on on this. Oh yeah they're very. I mean in every version of it. I remember in the eighties version. They were shockingly rendered for the time. Everything else was just so eight bit and chunky looking and these women were very pretty. I read there's an easter egg where kaz because the last woman you have <hes> to larry ultimately as sexual congress swift has a sorry what larry has sexual congress with women. You didn't like look for that. No those were just words available he yeah he loses virginia eighty two the prostitute that doesn't count doesn't count because you really wants to have an emotional connection with someone and yeah it's it's feels kind of oddly judgmental towards sex workers <hes>. There's a there's a so like there you can turn. She's in a bubble bath thir- she's in a hot tub and there's an easter egg where you can top type in turn off bubbles else and you can see more of our bosom ooh but you you can't do that in reloaded this game more than any of the other ones. We've played was demoralizing. I ah i was so depressed but like the world is ugly. Everything you interact with is described as either smelling like shit or come rate like it's like like you if you accidentally like taste the chair when you go into like the bar you're gonna leave. It clicked licked like sense or you know the sensory button which looks like a nose and mouth. He'll he'll talk about like how it tastes like fecal matter like it's just it i i was like this is the worst place ever hung out. It's fucking discussing and larry is not like he's not super likable like they try to make him kind of like oh. He's like a nice guy. I but it's also like this is like a proto red. Pill type like this is a guy who has it gets tries to like. I'll give women gifts and then they fucking they have oh boy friend larry's for sure and instant. He is voice. Acting also sounds like air being squeezed out of an earth wind uh-huh and everyone's constantly remarking on how bad is breath smells. Fuck control this guy to knock all the time yeah yeah. It's so weird it kind of reminds me of just in terms of tone this spoiler all the games are about giving women gifts men. They relieved achieved to masturbate or something and it's kind of like that show hello ladies. Maybe okay sure it's like like the idea of like you understand. The guy just want they deserve hot chicks and it's such a weird confusing right. I ah just throwback idea and the whole game series was based on it. You give girl presents supposed to fuck you yeah. There isn't like there's like self improvement or self reflection that larry has to do is just like accumulating enough money playing casino games can buy enough things <hes> to impress women. I thought what i thought it was creepy when he described one of the characters as smelling like clean skin and new carpeting which to me means do say fucking serious like nobody ever is like oh. You smell like skin carpet. That's an insane. Persons zhang said he's like oh. You smell like perfume or soap or deodorant. I'm like clean skin clean clean flash hon unbound unbound skin laid across my carpet. He was also. He's a software salesman. Yes so is it supposed to we like this is a guy that al and the guys run into when they go to conventions yeah see based on someone they know. I thought i read read somewhere in doing research about that. It was based on a dude who bragged at sierra about how many women need slept with like it was a personal dig and then like the password to the club is ken sent me which is like a ken williams off like there's a lot of like in in world sierra joe write a joke. You look like you sprained your fingers making those air quotes yes so so and and him just wearing a leisure suit in nineteen eighty-seven like that was like a thing that was popular during the disco era so it's like meant to indicate that he's lame and a little out of touch like this is. He's not supposed to be a cool guy so you go after the <hes>. Serena says it is interesting. You say that what we're like. Who's fantasy is it to play a loser. Definitely a loser like there's no like wish fulfillment. There's no like it almost feel also from a i mean if you wanna <music> get link feminist for a second that it was that you were more likely to play different variations of men than you were to play a woman until kings as quest for that you could play as rosetta. I think her name was blake before that you could play secure dudes loser dudes space dunes. There is a leisure suit larry spinoff where you play as perilous patty. Oh yes is a woman who's trying to fuck leisure suit larry. He's not into it. I don't know our problem. We gotta play it. Yeah we tackled this entire series fucking way so you get you start out in left these bar you sort of go through the first women women. You're the first woman you have. I mean you can kind of go things in a in a semi non linear fashion but if you're kind of progressing normally you you might go after the prostitute. I you get the ken sent. Let me note to go. Backstage are backstage to go in the back room of the bar where there is a pimp character very sensitive. Yes acidly portrayed. It looks like it's it's about as sensitive as a jeff a jeff dunham puppet. It's really a ah but you know if you look at the very first game. It's just like a fat guy in a tank top like turning in the it was the v._g._a. Remake where they kind of turn this guy into huggy bear you know where they turn them into this the stereotypical pimp character <hes> but <hes> yeah and then you have to trick him. This is the like the adventure game logic. Sometimes this feels like it's written to sell his books which has talked about because it's just like wait the way i have to get past. This pimp is to change the tv to a porno so he'll be so so horny that he'll be distracted from guarding the stairwell as as quickly get enough money money to like have sex with a prostitute. It's just that like i distract this guy and tricalm uh-huh yeah. That's what you gotta do yeah somebody. I as i was playing this. I realized that like be playing of bad. Adventure game is like being in a relationship a codependent relationship with alo. We were just trying to anticipate like his mind like what does he want me to do. What would he want me to do right now and just like you're. You're just so at a disadvantage yeah later on when you're trying to make perfume perfume yeah. You have to poison awale. That's the new so that's the new element that was added for the remake and that puzzle is makes no sense that was like i i just had to look at a guy at that point because i had no idea with fuck was going on with that you poison oil perfume oil poison. Yeah you pour hot sauce down his blowhole. Oh whole easy because like all the staff just like the obvious thing so you have the sex with a prostitute yeah. You have to have a rubber else. You'll die or a lover rather which i think is a weird accent joke <hes> and then what you have to get for the convenience store and then after you do that you you go after the second woman the first woman that he's trying to have some sort of oh by the way did you guys also like exit the room without taking off your condom. Oh no if you don't do that if you forget to take off your condom. After you have sex with these sex worker you get murderous hurt step outside the guys like why are you still wear economist beats. The shit out you're wearing under under your pants doesn't make any sense lizard yeah so so weird. God damn that's funny others a woman unfond you go after who's at the casino you go in our emissary. She's at the disco and then you have to sneak your way into their blonde. She's the blonde blonde woman she <hes> who you are giving a bunch of presents to that. If you give her enough presence she wants to marry you so she'll have sex with you. Go to the quickey chapel to get married. <hes> this sequence is weird. 'cause like here's the weirdest part about the sequence to me is that you go up to the honeymoon suite with with fawn and you have to <music> get the number for wine delivery service. Even though you can buy wine at the store line harvey steve harvey you can buy harvey weinstein or harvey stain wine rather at the store war but she doesn't look like want that you have to get wine from a wind delivery service but to make a phone call to get wind delivery. You have to go to the convenience store and use the pay phone outside. Ah even in the eighties there were phones hotel rooms and then she fucks that wind delivery guy offscreen the wind delivery guy and then she george castanza's yushi you she ties you up takes your wallet but did they just did ninety sitcoms just steal from leisure suit larry this every day we like is cancelled. The only in every writer who had a job in the nineties must've played this because they had computers ready waiters. I i took <hes>. I took issue with one of the lines said in front of the caesar's palace casino. Which is <hes> that you look at the statue. There's like a statue. Yes the devil woman she's naked and the narrator who i assume is the voice of god. God says you finally found a woman who will never never press charges. Oh my god yeah and i was like oh no because that is the other women have pressed charges against larry larry which means you're playing a somebody who's sexually assaulted multiple. Women were god. It's fucking depressed. Art is really dark. We don't stand larry. We don't do that no now. You can't take it back. Man just said the original one mechanic that i really hated in in this game is how much gambling you the only way to get money to grind like really shitty versions of a really really slow shitty unfunded on slot machines or just shitty versions of blackjack that seem like even more unfair than normal blackjacks with payout is but it seems like i would lose twenty s a lot i it took me like a full four hours of playing before i realized i could save and load. That's the only way to do it like don't bother playing this game legit. Just just save max bat. If you lose reload your save don't fucking bother to be honest. I didn't have this problem. No one hold them. You're good larry. Ah we're going to have to play the whole series this <hes> so yeah this the woman faith is is the security guard who give you steal a spanish fly from the cod. This is the fucking. The spanish fly is not like in the hookers room. It's in a you you have to go outside on the fire escape and then see a window in an adjacent apartment building and then swing over there using rope and smashes open the window with a hammer you find inside the dumpster her and if the ropes too long you died it's too short you don logically so tortured to figure this shit out and that's how you get the spanish fly which which makes this was horny woman not have sex with you or want to have sex with her boyfriend stole a pill for you. You sound like you're describing being very emphatically a dream that you a <hes> so this opens up the elevator which you i can go up to the penthouse suite and this is the this is how you get to the end game in the original version you go straight to this last woman but in the reloaded version they added this woman jasmine who is is the woman who swims under she swims in the fish tanks and you can go she'd wear a bikini and you can go seduce her and this is the bananas utterly bat shit shit wale. A sort of a side quest here was the main question. You need to do it to progress where you have to. You have to steal hot sauce from the buffet. Put in the whales blow blowhole. You have to steal a squid from the whales feed and y- and feed that to a cat outside which the cat like randomly family appears. You have to hope that there's a cat out and then you have to worry about oh. There's a cat you have to order vodka from the you by us. The i guess you use the squid to trap the cat and then drain. It's like glands. Is that what it is. It's really fucking mosque. It's disgusting. If you ever get in the cab with vodka in your hand yes yeah the cabdriver drinks. It and kills isn't a drunk driving accident carrying booze totally fair. Uh yeah but yeah you have to get vodka and you have to mix everything together to make a perfume for this woman and then she oh she's upset that you heard her whale and so she swims away so you don't get to have sex with either with a woman you do get to have sex with is named eve and she wants an apple. It sucks hoping that one in the hot tub right she's immediately to she loves you yeah. She loves you immediately and by the way in the in the remake it's at least semi jeff. I mean not really justified but you can li. It'll they at least try to do some work where it's like. Oh you float over in a hot air balloon constructed from a fucking the blow up doll yeah so it's like like like she's impressed impressed by that in the in the original you just walk out you likely break into her apartment and then just walk out onto her balcony and then she just likes you instantly yeah yeah no stranger to blow up. Doll you get yeah you can fight it all yeah. It makes it makes a farting sound. That's gross yeah. It makes a farting sound because your dick nick. Isn't it funny like that sex so it's not funny. It's also it says something. Do you have do you have the screen shot matt because the copy is fucking in discussing the one that i sent you my other computer. I'm i'm assuming here that i know somebody involved in this game that there's going to be like some writer writer i worked with and that like i'm gonna they'll they'll listen to this and they'll be like wow they're really thinks. My writing is terrible. Fear going into this did you you see who did the soundtrack who austin win tori who did journey oh wow the soundtrack for reloaded the the music is actually great and that's actually a high point like like the the song the music. Here's here's here's a screen shot that yeah journey the game that i constantly rag on in this room. Yes she's crying. Here's the here's as the screen shot matt sent. This is from the original. When you try to have sex the blood doll selecting your own personal favourite from the three available openings shyly. Try out the dull. This has to be the key thing you've done the longtime larry a faster and faster you until suddenly there's a loud flatulent sound god. It's so fucking gross. That's the that's the voice of god because it's not larry saying oh i've <hes> this is. I haven't been this kinky in a wild yes. It's it's you larry. I'm watching you so i'm a blow up doll and i'm nisshin narrator has a this is god's judgement so you talk with a eve is in the hot tub. She's cover. She's completely naked and <hes> you have to talk to her a little bit. She loves you immediately yeah. If you give her the apple she wants to have sex with jio in the remake. She has sex with the top in the original. She takes you in the bedroom and has sex with you in the original the and this is the end of the game. <hes> it it. You know there's not that much to it. It's just just like you spend a lot of your time. Just trying to figure out what the fuck do but if you actually play through it if you know what you're doing it's not that long of a game and then you had cameo a fourth wall breaking cameo from either ken williams uh-huh in the original sierra online or in reloaded aloe pops out of the hot tub where you're having sex with o'brien shirt with a saxophone. It's so fucking i mean i guess he was just down there hanging out yeah. He's he's blowing larry before for the girl he really does. I i found a like an article about how he was on stage at some sort of european game convention yeah and he played the lead larry theme on his saxophone dot rules so oh that's kind of charming. He really does play saxophone. He really feels like a character from <hes> ready player. One like feels like specific classic eighties developer type you know with all his quirky specifically kiss hawaiian shirt and his saxophone feels like in the future when we're all like killing each each other for credits in order to solve this future puzzle like that'll be one of the things it'd be like. Did he have a beard or not. Of course he had a beard. You know he saw the feeder puzzle. Pour some hot sauce. The whale's blowhole honestly that's the kind of both i you know what i don't like that book either last ready player one. If it would sort of mark ryan wants it was aloe allo and it was just a bunch of shitty adventure razorbills and then you've got to turn off the system or whatever at the end yeah like that puzzle is the gabe is the third gabriel night game where you have to like use a duct tape to get hair off a catsuit. Give yourself a fake mustache and draw moustache on a picture new drama cash on an it was a really great article for extent that it's like the worst adventure game puzzle of all time so confusing both sound like talking about nightmares well. Here's a nightmare so in the original game. There is a ticking clock whereas you're supposed you're supposed to have sex by five a._m. And part of the reason you have sex sexual. The prostate is to buy yourself some more time so you can. You can have sex or the other women but if you don't complete the game if you are sorry if you don't have sex by five am i am larry. Commit suicide takes out a handgun. His head and closes brains man. I wonder even even running just to see that yeah yeah under the sun is smiling. Yes i've in the morning. It's a new day and he just kills them to the no yeah. He's not looking forward without awesome. He's like this is the end for me when he turned forty. Is that why he turned forty as a virgin a could be i mean i think it's because he's an in cell like that's like that. That's the thing right yeah you know. They you kill a bunch of women and then he kill yourself. He should go to that plastic surgeon. That would give him a scourge shit dude. I read that article. That was a nightmare. You can fix this problem wary. You just need to be more of a chad. That's why yeah that's why he has to spend all that time grinding on the video poker machines so that he can go get disfiguring plastic surgery killed marching here killing. I grinded before i understood save so long on that machine and then i kept running out of money going outside and that one guy would give me ten dollars. Go back in anyway. I we did it so i could buy a round at the bar because i thought that would matter and it didn't know yeah. No one cares issues like an easter egg. It sucks and you can you can weigh so much your money just on cab rides 'cause cab rides. Teacups live twenty five dollars to go to go from one location the next if you're just trying to explore a little bit yeah <hes> yeah it's a bummer. Nothing like a game that punishes you for moving anything else. I missed unleashed larry. I mean it was so it's so depressing. It's still like it's it is this is the problem that i have with grand theft. Auto games too is that link the the image of america that both of these things presents. Yes is so negative america's nightmare place now but like <hes> ah unbelie cynical. It's really an all the the voice acting in the narrators like well larry. Look out. You're gonna get your dick dick stuck in a fucking knife. It's so s- like like slimy and yet yeah no. I didn't like it. I wish there was a way to die with getting your dick stuck in the pocket knife. You get from the the homeless guy. I thought i was gonna have to fish something out of the out of a drain. Oh yeah there's nothing no. The knife is just a cut yourself from the thing that tethers you to the bed the woman who are the bad not the woman the ropes <hes> but hey it's time for their view crew it so here's what we'll do. We'll see something positive about leisure suit larry and then give this game a numerical decimal decimal rating. Here's my positive thing. I mentioned the soundtrack and on reloaded. There is one sound q. in particular that i enjoyed a hearing. It's when you get an achievement this place maybe for that reason. I'm going to give this game a how point nine heather gamble oh my god i liked interacting when that drunk and guy on the ground <hes> yeah there's a guy there's a there's a wino- sleeping on the carpet room like that. You could just piss on the fucking floor like i. I think the game's gonna present us with this like nihilist world. I can take out on the street and the punishment for it. The first sound i heard was a cat dying buying and then you go and you piss on the fucking ground. You drank fuck. It's like this. This is hell world bleak nightmare and if if that's what you want this game provides it zero point zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero one komo score yeah matt your thoughts. I mean yeah the <hes>. This isn't stuff just because it is yeah it's it's pretty bleak and like. I don't like larry when i played video games. I wanna be like spider man or something something cool. I don't wanna be. We don't want to be a loser so i will say it. Was it was a nice. It was nice to see how the the other half lives. I guess as a as a as a regular guy like me. I get to have that experience of being someone who sucks right so <hes>. I'll say yeah like just take out your dick and fucking giving us score man. I guess i got it. It'd be like a pun or something. It'd be like oh this this. This score is so small right. I it's point zero five sucks out yeah. The the pun would be like yeah the waco the score so small lake leary's day and it smells like his brand uh-huh smells like his dig eva your positive thought your score i enjoyed the presence of the three men who had first and last names james rate the guy gives you money the guy wearing a barrel and the guy i was at the guy laying on the ground. I think that's the guy yeah and what did you tell me about them. They we're all guys who pledged. I think five thousand dollars to the kickstarter so they got their likeness and full name used in reloaded see just the fact that they that there's people bowl that love research larry that much yes makes me happy and i really had a hard time playing at this time but those terrible game. It's a bad game. I don't wanna cancel culture leisure suit larry right boy oh boy it really didn't age well but on the other hand. I feel like adventure. Games are my friends my friends. When i was lonely we would play them and leaders. Larry was always he just always was there. In the back of my imagination is like this sinister friend and and i can't punish him i gave it five stars wow five point zero <music> five point zero out of ten wow well without a millionaire but yeah pretty score by our senate and then a play another one yeah yeah play a good one. No plan at that leaves me. I'm gonna play another one now. You wanted to kick starter for soft porn adventures to you. I'm gonna play that right away <hes> well. Those were our thoughts but you know what heather there's a possibility that maybe we're on <hes> god. God what's good yeah. Maybe we are gay dick for on the street. Here's a hammer found in a dumpster dumpster. I'm walking into a casino the ham nightmare game. Maybe we're wrong and <hes> i have a i have something here that blew my mind. This is rachel angel presser on medium <hes> wrote. I was disillusioned. When i came of age because a significant number of men i'd eventually interact with totally lacked act larry laffer positive outlook on sex and romance leisure suit. Larry taught me about boundaries consent and healthy ways to process rejection long before other mediums did in most games that center sex and romance. It's considered a failed state. Do not have a date or sex with an n._b._c. or pursuing but in laugher case rejection served as a game mechanic. She said that this game was feminists. You can find any take on the internet. You can touch a woman's leg in the game before talking to her. That's bad you have the says. Don't do that and then you don't do it again. I don't know you could you do and it saved. She says it again. I guess the if you're going to give him any credit. It's that he had no point through all. This rejection grows violent so i guess that's good. He's real happy yeah. It's another quote from this pieces. Leary serious relationships are worth bringing up in this context because even in the first game he expresses a desire for emotional connection after sleeping with a sex worker. Yes fuck this. Here's a here's one. This is from the september one thousand nine hundred sixty edition of next generation magazine that ranked the top one hundred video games of all time number one super mario sixty four number two tetris us number one thousand nine hundred doom number forty nine command and conquer and coming in at number eighty five the leisure suit larry series series series series next this next generation magazine yeah here here's what they say graphic adventure with campy adult themes and breast press is not technologically groundbreaking the themes never get much past the level of playboy party or an episode of baywatch but the designers have managed to working enough campy humor and bad puns to keep the game going through five installments over nine years memorable moments explained to mom. That's not pornography this was this game was really really like i think as import it was may probably important to a lot of teenage boys who grew up to be men and you know maybe teenagers of all genders and and use it as a master batori aid time when the in a pre internet age when maybe things were not as available i that's the only thing they for the staying power of this franchise. You said exact same thing though about <hes> dragon dragon slayer. I think a lot of games master batori aids for for kids who yeah yeah it was like you said in the dragon's lair episode really hard to find ways to jack off it was yeah and if you had to do do it till i fawn and leisure larry. That's suck awful yeah yeah. I do leon alexander <hes> she writes but you know i never stopped loving leisure suit larry i never lost my empathy for that comically height disadvantage greasy quaffed little dude who wants sex the only until he learns that the manufactured candy and roses vision of sexual sexual success is just a media generated vehicle to true love <hes>. This seems very positive yeah. These two women that i found were like this is a this is kind of a feminist triumph this game yeah because he gets rejected objected but he blows his brains out i guess if they all had sex with them for like flowers and stuff and perfume yeah yeah then it would be were really worse rate. Yeah i guess so and he doesn't there isn't quite a moment where he is just like he gets mad or anything or there isn't a moment it worries like oh god what bish you know like a guess yeah. If you wanna make that case yeah. That's that's one of the cases that they made was just like you yeah he doesn't isn't. He doesn't blame them right. He just got his like well. Maybe onto the next was put my dick in the doorway. I don't have a second review but what i do have is a link on aloes humor site aloes comedy club may no longer be available in the app store but alos cyber joke. Three thousand is still going strong what this is a randomly generated. This is a joke service that has a repository of a bunch of different jokes. I it's it's like a google search except instead instead of i'm feeling lucky it says i'm feeling funny and then you can you click on it and it will tell you it will come up with a with a joke randomly. Here's one this joke number number. One seven seven four what's the difference between a woman in church and a woman taking a bath. One has hope in her soul. I don't understand. I think the reverses i want has opened her whole yeah. One has so oh i get it so the church one has hoping her soul and then the the bath one. It has been her home just supposed to put that together in your brain. I mean i did it. I could not that's a puzzle is the guide for i got it right away. They both worked in as a journalist games and you worked obviously for games made. The things that i had to review is aloe the funniest game designer designer of all time. No is the fuzzy as funny as he would. He be the funniest guy anyone new. <hes> probably not no. I i'd say the portal writers. I mean of his era era people get convinced like by being the funniest guy at the barbecues and stuff that he was hilarious could very well be the case okay so i mean it could have just been that these were a bunch of people who maybe didn't have i yeah i don't know he seems like a nice enough man. He seems like an affable guy but i don't know about his comedy chops. Here's there's another one randomly generated from now aloe cyber joke three thousand. I clicked on most popular here so this is this will hopefully be one that that is well received. A lady's is car leaked motor oil all over her driveway so she bought a large bag of kitty litter to soak it up. It works so well that she returned to the same store a few hours later to buy another bag. The clerk looked at her and said lady that were mike catt. I'd put him outside okay. Do you know i think that there's a kind of comedy writing which may not make you laugh out loud structurally sound right yeah and there's a kind of cosmic butter that there's like a comedy writer classic it kind of comedy writer who appreciates just joke structure like math and i feel like that's what kind of comedy writer this guy sure he's not. He's really good <unk> at coming up with puns. Yeah just not what we celebrate often also to the experience of playing like a quote unquote funny video game came back in the day was and i'm thinking of secret of monkey island is like you're reading this. I was like secret of monkey island eight hundred funny game but i don't think i laughed out loud once because you're just reading text heck's to yourself like with no audience and that's how you're processing everything it's kind of. It's like reading a book the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy or something like that your gut laughs right yeah. They don't feel like even the funniest book laughing that hard because you're just being presented with text <hes>. Have you ever laughed out loud. You know what it's time for the question. Block matt feta some questions like tokens in an arcade machine. Oh boy just jam channel minutes ago. Oh so this first one is from at dc one one eight anyone have access to the leisure suit larry age verification questions that were built into the original game. I guess they're asking if we didn't homework. I remember working an encyclopedia with my buddy and when we were eight to try to get past those so well they were card because it was the eighties and they were about like they're about like nixon and stuff yeah well here. Here's some of them. <hes> <hes> okay here we go. Hey let's see if we impasse the age verification fun okay <hes> johnny carson is a a singer be david letterman sidekick see ed mcmahon sidekick <unk> de an actor see it see me put your dick and here we go appears. Dora is a sexy be a singer see short d all of the above no fucking idea it is d and also any of those answers will work. Wow wow weird that verifies nothing. All politicians are a hardworking be honest. <music> seem ethical d on the public payroll see right. Oh matt you are so naive. These verify anything no. I should say there are supposed to be kind of fun. Your attitude you know they're on the take iran under the piracy thing that you had there was a big wheel that came with a video game <hes> and you had to like it would be like connect blue and purple triangle or something and then you would like spin the wheel around until they lined up and there'd be a little window with a letter in it and that's how you got pass pirates. I thought this was going to be low. It's like an actual quiz. It's like it's it's meant to very. I don't think it is something that i don't think this was a piracy prevention measure <hes> so yeah we do have some of those original questions and they're bad okay. <hes> this one is from. I'll be right then on twitter is leaser suit larry effective as comedy as sexy game as both no no no no. I mean i probably would have been horned up if i'd gotten to play this as a kid but as an adult i was like well i as a child shot. I thought the number sixty nine was terrifying like i was saying i was with you. I was like oh my god. What genitals are near. My face like that's a nightmare. I would've loved to have seen a computer drawing of boobs in a hot tub. I would love that. A lot of the questions. Were about like with the game. Being like horny horny is the game is this game jack audible and i'm like no i think because he sucks header gave it look i i would say something about my views on humanity but i think that you could probably jerk off to any that's true. Maybe you're your ended. Larry ticket a shit and then not washing or l. Emerging from the the only time i <unk> got really aroused this. This next question is okay. Could something like leisure suit. Larry return to the gaming scene given the environment armant. We currently live in oh boy. Yes guy. This came out in twenty thirteen. They're thinking there's like a gigantic gap. Between twenty thirteen thousand nineteen. I mean there is there is could be could absolutely be a horny. There's a way for them to do. There's an american pie kind for sure yeah. That's somebody his bathing. They won't let us have all that is an interesting point of view on this question because the next half of it is also how would a gender swap go over for in your opinions god well that is the that is the patty patty patty ones era which is playable. I think in the in the second or may i think the fourth one she's the the main player character follow up back and forth kind of like maniac mansion follow up question guys do this game work because women don't sexist excellent. Don't enjoy they want so. They've how the puzzles be so now that you just can't say anything. You can't do anything like like that was unnecessarily. Mean of me and i'm really sorry i want to apologize to that stranger out there who listens and subscribes to our show and i didn't really actually make fun. I mean mean. I made fun of you but i feel bad about it immediately and sorry <hes> leisure suit larry four is actually the fifth one leader suit larry five passionate patty does a little undercover work mark because as an inside joke leisure suit larry four was never released. It was just called leisure suit larry for the michigan. The missing floppies was the one that larry made in the he's. He's a software guy who the game leisure suit larry four. They just never released a four never released it not a funny joe from three to five so just to confuse. These people i guess so or fourth was in the works and they decided not to come up with it. I hope somebody had to come in on a saturday so alcatel them to his idea for not make the eve anderson. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for discussing your passion for the leisure suit larry franchise face stanford adventure games. Thank you for enduring this. <hes> this adventure in this year twenty one thousand nine hundred <hes> plugged watched briar patch in twenty only twenty nine on u._s._a. And guys just want to say thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I love this podcast so much and it was such an honor. God bless you. I want to say that i've never <unk> heard. No guest is ever had so similar a purse an a you said you were lonely and i really connected with that. Yeah i was like oh. I know that feel. The game is my friend. I knew that that was really nice. Matt keeble leave this. I i mean it's a classic coup guy. I don't know i'm always hanging out with friends. Do kick flips and stuff. We'll take a break from being cool for one second and tell us next week game right next. Week's game is nintendo sixty four r._p._g. Sixty four. I can't follow we're talking about.

larry larry sierra roberta williams larry developer lucas arts writer nintendo sega harvey weinstein maniac mansion phil hartmann ken williams heather anne campbell amsterdam philips cholera ronald reagan
NAISA INDIGENA (ep. 213)

MEDIA INDIGENA : Indigenous current affairs

1:23:05 hr | 9 months ago

NAISA INDIGENA (ep. 213)

"I'm recovered from Winnipeg this media and digital episode to thirteen. On this week's indigenous. Roundtable Nacer indigenous. And just who, or what is a Nisa, whites, it's the native American Indigenous Studies Association or as they put it a professional organization for Scholars Graduate Students Independent, researchers and community members interested in all aspects of indigenous studies. A lot of students of the indigenous many of whom gather every year share and discuss their scholarship and this year that included us all of us fact together in one place for the very first time in Toronto even and then just like that Covid, Nineteen took out Nacer Twenty twenty. What's roundtable to do well lemon? Stu make for great lemonade, so get ready for some. Some bitter sweetness as stage a round table about the round table right here on the show, but before we do, let's thank the people who make it all possible patriots who's ranks now include Emily Giselle Charlotte, Michael and Michelle each now pledging five dollars every month Katie Ashley. Alexandra and Alex Zet each now pledging ten dollars and k contributing fifteen dollars each and every. Every month then there are those who show their support via pay. Pal like Valerie recently contributed seventy five dollars as well as colleen who sent us twenty five, the same amount as kyle. Who added this message happy to support my favorite podcast. Robert, Kim Candice Brock and Kenneth Eisenson early. Thank you for all of the knowledge. Pass through this podcast, but wait, there's more. More one time investments via INTERAC- from Kate Send Us, Twenty Five Dollars Matthew and Christopher each contributing fifty Alexandra at one hundred, and then there's Nancy. Who recently sent us a whopping five hundred dollars, what there are no wirtz, and yet it's precisely because of supporters, new and old that are words continue to flow, and we're immensely grateful to those who make it possible. And joining me back at the round table once again are the fearsome foursome proceeding from East to West in McDougall Ontario associate professor of indigenous studies at York University Brock. Brock Rx on to Edmonton home of Ken. Williams assistant professor with the University of Alberta's Department of drama. Kenneth Eric has gone. Good good also in Edmonton, but of course socially distanced Kim Tolbert associate professor in the Faculty of Native Studies also at the University of Alberta Kim. Hae Rak and finally in Vancouver, Canada, Collison, associate professor in the Institute for Critical, Indigenous Studies and the Graduate School of Journalism at BC candidates. Hey, rick, this is a rare a rare thing for all of us to get together the five of us and as I noted at the outset. It's lemonade being made of some unfortunate lemons, but we're going to do our best here so. Kim I thought we'd start with you because from what I gather. You're the one who has the greatest experience with Neesa. The native American Indigenous Studies Association and I thought you know the first place to start is just what and who is NASA, and why should non Nisa types care? How good question why should they care? Mesa is I'd say the biggest and main organization at least in the English. Speaking world for indigenous studies it's called native American and indigenous studies was a lot of US leadership in the in the beginning, and still is so Nisa was founded officially in two thousand eight, and we've had academic meetings, which also do a lot of community engagement every year at different locations, although we had a preliminary meeting in two thousand and seven to organize it. Yes, I. I have been at every single meeting until are in. Toronto got canceled this year. Yeah, so and we've grown every year. I think. Maybe there were can't remember. Maybe around four hundred participants in Oklahoma, the very first meeting in two thousand seven, and in the last meeting, we actually held in new, Zealand and Twenty nineteen. There were well over a thousand and it was. Our largest meeting may have been around fifteen hundred, so yeah, every year we grow. It's it's great. Now on its website NEESA describes itself as international and interdisciplinary Candice I kind of makes it unusual that most. Indigenous. Studies associations are are very much tethered to their nation. If you will or focused on their nation anyway, and don't necessarily go out of that silo of indigenous studies proper. Yeah I only started going to Neesa in twenty seventeen. I think I meant to go before, but it happened to be at UB. See that year so I really have just started going to it in the last few years and I'm amazed actually at how many people come from all over from the Pacific. Islands from New Zealand Australia Also candidate US also other parts of the Americas is. It's pretty cool, like and very interdisciplinary. I have to say like for me. I'm kind of one of those rare birds who crosses a bunch of different disciplines. I I tend to go to conferences for journalism and science and Technology Studies and anthropology so coming into NATO was like I. Don't know if coming home actually I saw tons of people that I knew from other sectors of my life, and and and really felt like were talking across and about and critiquing disciplines, even whilst they also had a foot in other disciplines, so it's really it's really great that way. Which raises an interesting question that I'm only thinking about now. which is I mean to what extent. Are All the indigenous studies programs around. North America, let's say. To what extent do they owe? Their existence to native people themselves, or to what extent are they about native interest? Because we've talked about that before? Right I mean in some ways. Most indigenous studies programs are about how colonial governments treat. Native people I mean obviously people are trying to expand that and push beyond that, but in a way it seems like NASA's saying well. Here's how we'll deal with it. We won't let ourselves be silo or or hemmed-in yeah. I think one of the main conversations that we've been having it. NASA and in the broader kind of what we call critical indigenous studies as balancing that critical global indigenous studies with our commitments to our regions and localities, and so we are very clear about that in the Faculty of Native Studies at the University of Alberta and I think many other indigenous studies programs are that we have an obligation. Obligation to have relationships with the indigenous peoples in whose lands we are working and living right and many of our faculty are from This territory here entreaty six and in close by territories but we also are really clear that we have really benefited in our intellectual work as indigenous peoples in specific parts of the world by this critical global conversation that we've been having that preceded, Neesa. That sparked. NASA has also really been nourished by the existence of an organization like Mesa so I, think both of those things are happening in a lot of the indigenous studies programs around the world. Okay so a show of hands here so to speak I. Mean who who who here has been to NASA. 'cause I haven't. Ken I haven't either okay, but the other three. You have Right Kim. I guess you've been to the most. Yeah and I and I was on the council NASA Council from two thousand and ten to twenty thirteen, so you're Jean. Jacket is covered with patches from each each one. Yeah, it could've been you know I. Wish we had patches? Or stickers for our laptops. This over again, how many have you been? I've only been to a couple I went to L. A. Anti BBC and I was hoping to go to the one in New Zealand but also the one in Toronto, but other things intervened and I was able to go so I find it is. It is honestly one of the most exciting academic conferences that I have ever been to. I've been to a lot. 'cause I I'm a part of a number of of different sort of disciplinary conversations and interdisciplinary conversations and I continually tell people like the only time I truly get excited is going to NASA. Brock does that comport with your experience? Yeah, very much, so I think I came in Kansas. Describe it really beautifully. It's a nice gathering in that you do get to reconnect with all. You know people from all over the world. Who are working in related fields, and so it's a bit of a homecoming, really in terms of getting a chance to reconnect with people that you met a graduate school or different career stops so it. I think you actually if I remember correctly you were. Aware of Nason and kind of agreed with the possibility of Media Indiana doing a a some kind of related event, so we started talking about this a couple years ago, now about the possibility of having a gathering part of it was really appealing is that I've heard many people. Who Work in academia have made comments to listen to different PODCASTS, and so it seemed blake, there was already. An audience there and it would have been neat to have that dialogue with. An alive audience and to get questions and comments in terms of. People use the podcasts in terms of their teaching. Because I know I. Know for certain that people have. Recommended or in some cases, put it right into. The course outlines for students to follow as part of their learning. So just would have neat to see that kind of exchange between the PODCAST and people working in that. May academic field. No. I'M GONNA cry. So I mean in some ways I don't know how to frame initially. I wanted to frame. The question is let's talk about the association per se and let's talk about the gathering the annual gathering, but they kind of bleed into each other. and. I don't know how fair this next question's going to be an an and anyone who wants to jump in jump in Just how nee? Is NEESA that is to say, native, American and indigenous curious. What's what's the rough ratio of indigenous to settler members? Ken Ryan US Right. Yeah, that's a good question. I mean I don't have any numbers we do ask for people's Tribal or or first nation or other indigenous affiliation and join, but we're not asking obviously about citizenship or membership or anything like that, but we do one of the things that I think is a really nice hallmark of Mesa is that we do actually have non-indigenous participation, but it's very much controlled in centered on indigenous people and we've discussed this in the Faculty of Native Studies that you have as well. We are comfortable having non-indigenous people as part of our work. Because we're controlling everything, so so we don't. It's NASA's not exclusionary and I think there might have been conversations of that. I Oklahoma meeting about whether we should be non-indigenous membership and we very quickly. Many of US came. Came to the consent, not while gets a ton of consensus. If it's not everybody but many of us kind of came to the conclusion that no, we weren't going to do that I. mean first of all. If you decide, you're going to include exclude non indigenous people. Then you gotta go. The identity police and run around and say who is is not indigenous, and secondly there are non indigenous people who will have really contributed important scholarship and activists and community work to this project who stand in alliance with us, so we've in fact, we've had a nonindigenous president. Mark Rifkin who did a fantastic job as a as a president of that organization that said it's not that there wasn't any. critique or little bit of lamentation about that in some quarters, but you know. Again were controlled, and largely by and for indigenous people so I think we're pretty comfortable with that also who wants to run for president of an organization like that like that's a lot of work. I'm so grateful for every great president. We have because it's so much work. You know no now just to be clear. Can anyone be a member? Do you have to be academe? Your or what or Doing scholarship like? No we have different levels of membership. Simply go to the website you can see we and we have different prices. We have prices for students for community people. I think we might have some conversation about employment and seniority, so it's very open and inclusive for membership. Yeah, and last question I? Guess I'll stick with you. Kim because you have the longest history and seemed to be the most plugged in in the back end of things. Why not just call? It is a or Eissa. HAVE THE NA? Doesn't that have you ever been critiqued that? Yeah, it's America in the front again. Total. No totally so. This is a big conversation that we had it Oklahoma and I'm going partly on memory and partly on conversations. I've had since then with people. I think outside the United States. Most people were comfortable with indigenous. Studies Association of course. That's a US. centric point of view have to put native American and I still don't I was the person who said indigenous studies is good enough I don't think we need native American indigenous studies now I will say. and I've just had this conversation with a non native friend in the US today in the United States I think the word indigenous circulates less frequently in community I think to a US American ear it can sound like an academic or an urban Indian type term not like something people in community would use an I've had people back home in South Dakota say that to me and I say well yeah, in the US, but I think in Canada for example or in other settler colonial countries indigenous is used more by people in community. It's not just a Falutin. kind of term, Roy so. I do think that history as part of w-why. Part of why they wanted to have native American up front, but you'd have to ask those us-based scholars who who really argued for that I was against it, even though I was at Arizona at the time. And do we know what low fluting is? I should never looked up Falutin is that a real word? Is. Ken Did you have any questions as the other member of this roundtable. WHO's never been? People may be wondering why I haven't been to Nacer. Because only recently, just Dan a full time academic I was eight a sessional for eight years before this and You don't get a lot of support. Supporters Essentially funding support to duty, traveling to attend conferences or anything like that, so it's only recently like I've only been full time as a professor for three years and. Honestly nascent was wasn't tie on my list of things to do because I was actually quite busy. Couple years with the other research. Things like that and again it goes to show that just how? Much we really need to connect with each other as indigenous academics at again. I really had no idea about it. I knew there's something like it existed, but I didn't know much about it for him. So. Yeah, that's then so this is my first opportunity to go was actually the summer and then of course we got Covadonga. Now I WANNA shift. We already have already, but I want to shift to the meetings. Proper a little bit more in terms. Talked about how long they've been going on since two thousand seven around three hundred fifty, then over thousand now I'm curious about it. In terms of atmosphere is a kind of a Coachella vibe or More. Or less south by I'd say. Actually being around majority digit scholars, which was has been my experience at most you panels I've gone to at NASA is really like a moment to kind of breathe in and breathe out together like it is really okay so now we're having a different kind of conversation. Terrain feels different. You know the fact that community members can come to necessa conferences and participate. That is a real difference me. When the American ethological association came to Vancouver this year, I was a huge You know a bit of. Of A I, don't know if you call it a scandal, but it was a huge problem. Right how to get community members in. You know they're such a barrier to entry. There's a huge cost associated with it and you know there's just despite anthropologists saying work with community. There's still so many problems with getting people in and NASA's like a totally different experience in that respect, so you know in some ways you're just getting a really different academic conversation. That's just much more indigenous indigenous informed communities welcomed. It just following up on what candace said one of the main things about NASA. That's really great as you have. As she said much more sophisticated conversations I think around indigenous politics studies when you go to non native focused meetings. It's really basic right. You're always trying to get included in the dominant narrative. At at NEESA, indigenous issues worldwide are the dominant story, and so it's much higher level conversation, and in any of the panels go to I, really agree with like. candace was describing in terms of having community members attend. It tends to be. Like a probably, this is true of a lot of academic conferences, though but a lot of the side conversations that you have outside of attending the actual sessions. They usually have some really beautiful. Reception events and they also have sort of affiliated. Like evening events like Kim I know you've talked about the work done in terms of the TV. Confessions is an example that was also going to be happening this year again. So, it's really like a whole series of events, and in some ways, the actual academic conference itself can kind of fade into the bathroom of bit because it's just an opportunity, take to reconnect and and meet people again for somebody who's a bit of a a bit bookish nerd. Ish, whatever you want. I just the opportunity to yet so like actually meet the people whose books or articles or people that you've seen Provide commentary in the media it's really needs. To be able to meet them. Faces to names, so those are those are all things that I really like about the conference also I completely agree with the point of the difference when it's a majority, indigenous versus where you're kind of like one. Session in a much larger conference and It just it's completely different feeling. All right I'm going to direct this to candidates, but anyone else can can jump pin. If we were to s Nagasaki of Nisa. What would you hypothesize about going in? To ethnography you, you walk in with open questions, right? So It's less about what you think is going to happen more like being open to what might happen and and imagining sort of who might be the the main people that you would wanNA talk to follow up with a more in depth interview. I find it really refreshing. How many young scholars are really moving forward with work with theory with taking indigenous studies into a disciplinary fields to me? That is some of the most exciting work I've seen which I. Get a lot of profiling support I feel like at Nacer that they might not, if they were at the asa or the triple A.'s right, all of these big sociology around policy conferences or science conferences. So I feel like they're such a They're such a network building. Feel to it where the scholars are young. They're doing really important. Innovative work and everybody kind of wants to support and participate together. It's really it's quite a good feel. The I guess it's just like a different character field than. than many of the conferences I started going going to and I started out as a scholar which were somewhat alienating the people who were big in the field were really hard to approach You know really. It was really different for me when I started out as a scholar going to other conferences and I'm sorry. I didn't get to NASA earlier. Actually. My career I wish I had of. Do? We see any kind of clustering, or maybe even clicking I I mean. Don't want you to name names, but. Do all the cree. Get together I mean. To Go together by nation, or we know which nations are represented typically is probably mostly created think. Cousins beat up. You know that's a good question like I. Don't I don't know that they've tabulated different nations. A there are people do accuse people are being cliquey sometimes i. do think it's because for people that have been going so long. You know you know so many different people and you only see them at NASA. They're coming safe from new. Zealand versus candid irate. Would it be fair to say there's a NEESA nation? Everyone attached nation to everything and I wanNA give to this. A Meta culture of some kind see that makes them good conference swag to say that, but then on something I. Hope you're writing this all down. Kim Patches Branding Mason nation. Yeah, totally tattoos. Here's a lot of tattoos at Mesa. Presentations about texture. Cannery more convinced than ever that. Absolutely you have to be at the next NASA whether we're. There is around table or not. Definitely WanNA. Go as one of those things. I think I need to go to tops. you know when you're cannon new to university at men, university politics university kind of day-to-day life professors good to like to find out from other props. It's just good to commiserate or just to celebrate the two things that usually happens at these expense, so yeah I! Think it's necessary. I think it's sounds good. Might you know I'm also a working group at university to Lake We're kind of nuts to bolts examining its relationship. Indigenous people into the land and we're. We're doing what we need. What we're trying to do is. Change the climate, the university to make it a more positive experiencing space religious people. Let's get into. What would have been a roundtable about the roundtable? It's entitled Oddly Enough The media and digital roundtable independent interactive indigenous media and intellectualism and chaired by Ken Williams with the rest of us as panelists, but you're also a panelist. And just a quick excerpt here from the description that was in the program. This roundtable discusses both pragmatic and conceptual comes of independent indigenous podcasting for both media and the academy. There is overlap on this roundtable between media, makers and academics academics who are regularly asked for media commentary on current indigenous topics, several of US work or work within indigenous in mainstream, print and broadcast media. We will explore. The impact of social media slash new media on research, teaching and public intellectual output as well as how producing for a primarily indigenous audience compares to a mass audience that is to say producing for that mass audience. All right. Were you the actual chair, Ken or do we just put that in the application I'm trying? Because if you are, you should start. A yeah yeah unprepared. All these mud that we found out that it was canceled built up. So if you had been chair, how would you have gone about this? Well the thing is is because unite both have a more direct media experiences in terms of the ones who reached out to people for expert opinion. Both reporters producers, right and and so I think you Kinda made because you're the one producing the this podcast half I was there to ask you questions. Such CETERA! What are the things that Unite Again Unite We were there in day one, the a brand, a brand, spanking, new, and the first ever aboriginal controlled. Television network was created in. We were the very first news team ever in the world that was by an average a controlled. Entity yeah entity. Yeah so. We were there at the beginning of things and I think part of my approach would have been some some similar to to how you're not the very first, but you're darn close at secreting a specific for indigenous people about indigenous people from indigenous people podcast and you know that that would be where I'd begin everything like how do we begin there? And how do we speak to our own people? But things, and how do we? How do they in the other? We would have to do the comparisons. How do we speak to the mainstream as we speak to? Our old people speak about the same issue. Mr Williams. Eric question in there yet no. That was a lot unpardonable. The question was educating the politician who didn't know anything about what he was talking about. Sounds like a medium Falutin question. Yeah, okay, the question is how do we speak to? Mainstream is both had we speak to our own people. Do we have different ways of talk each other? Well. I would say yes. Just to fill that out a bit short answer. Open ended. Questions can open. No. Yeah. That's why I set it up. I mean the podcast. The intent there from the beginning was I wasn't hearing discussions of indigenous issues in the way that I wanted to hear them primarily, because there were being discussed by people who either have their own agenda discussing them, and or were utterly ignorant about them, so it. You know at the same time. I thought Jeez. That feels like a bit of an arrogant proposition I. Guess the only way to find out. If there's there's any teeth to. This is to actually try and do it and and see if it's even doable. on a weekly regular basis kind of you know doing media criticism on the fly, although it wasn't meant to necessarily be just about mainstream media takes, that's how it's kind of evolved into this indigenous lead reality. Check on what settlers are saying about or doing to us this week. So You know I think just like NASA's sounds. You know we address indigenous people I, but not in a way that's meant to exclude or harangue settlers except maybe in a teasing way and if they're willing to be at that table and sit and listen Great. I'm not the chair, so I'm just sitting here. Waiting for or would say okay, Thank you very much for it. Could you mike to Kim? Second. Let me. Just get over here. Kim! I'm sorry. What's the question? Do we took? Kim was tweeting out. She's sitting on stage tweeting. Roundtable. Taking southeast. Seen some audience members at the back, getting up and walking. Be Like let's get down to the starbucks before the line. Table Open, bar. You get a little stamp just for being the first five minutes the. First Class up now. So. What's the question you want me to answer? That I'm assuming that as people who the media reach out to. Both mainstream in indigenous that we speak to each group differently and I was just wondering how you feel, you can articulate. That is like. When you when you speak about the same subject. How do you approach talking to media? Mainstream media as as as different to indigenous media. Yeah I mean I think it is similar to the conferences? Right I've got to be a lot more basic when I'm talking to non-indigenous media, I have to explain terminology I have too often explain why the why terminology is political and white changes over time and space so I ended up having to spend a lot of my time doing context Versus indigenous media I think you can often jump right in on the indigenous politics stuff I'd say if I'm talking about science. Or even the sexuality stuff I do if I'm talking about the. the technical details of something. I. Probably do have to lay that out for both audiences in similar ways, but the indigenous politics level is different depending on who I'm talking to yeah. Do you shorthand of candice? I'm GonNa ask you this. Do you see a shorthand? Amongst indigenous journalists talking to digits people. That's less tangible I think so I I think it depends on the issue, but I feel like there's still so many explanations that are needed when you're talking to a mainstream media when you know certainly teaching journalism school so. You know there's just so much history that hasn't been taught. That hasn't been really understood how it impacts. Events that are ongoing that journalists are reporting on so when it comes to indigenous journalists talking to digits people. There's just. Not those kinds of things to explain like you don't have to give the short explanation for residential schools. You don't have to give the short explanation for idle no more. You don't have to give right like you don't have to first of all. Make a distinction when it comes to land defense versus protesters. That was a huge issue in mainstream media when those inland defense was going on. Should we call them land defenders? No, why don't we just call them protesters and like the kind of conversations you saw on twitter between journalists about that in the stories that came out of it really showed you the distinction whereas a fan when it was reporting I, don't think they. Considered what? If. What people are calling themselves? Land Defenders will. That's what they are right. That's that's what we're calling them so at that kind of stuff matters. I think they were the first use water protectors. Santan, yeah. It's so. I'm. GonNa, give you the last word on this thing. and I'm trying I'm trying to mentally unite haven't seen each other in years going. It's one of these things where I can never met you in person yet. That's the six this would be the first time we'd actually all get together as room visibly on space, right? That's the main issue. That's the loss on feeling right now. So Am I and. Now a really feeling now that I think about it, I've actually not really feeling it live and in person during the middle of his podcast getting the fields. Take a moment. Continue them on the rock what? You have extensive experience is scheduled. And one of the things we were united. Talk about quite a bit is the undeniable off denied racism that exists in this country. Have you seen? Anything shift in how you talk to, or if you have spoken to mainstream media, abouts say any kind of indigenous issue that there had never reached out to you about. What comes to mind with with that is. In terms of NEESA. Part of the community engagement and I think the commitment to not just. It's kind of like answering delores I I'm used to. This is sort of like delorean challenge to anyone doing academic studies of indigenous people is make sure that it's relevant to communities that communities themselves benefit in some way and one of the like, for instance, just thinking back to last year's Mesa conference one of the most powerful sessions that I went to was when Tasha Hubbard. Showed her film her documentary film, we will stand up and there was also a member of coulter Bush's family who were in attendance, quite a few family members, and they showed the film, and then had a panel, and it was very emotionally powerful to be in the room, and hear directly from from from Hubbard is the director in terms of the experience of making the film, but also the family members in terms of why the the film had. Sort of a galvanizing. Effect on on on those dialogues about racism in Saskatchewan and so I. I think that's something that stands out in terms of NASA's sort of. It's kind of go back to your earlier question about the shorthand is that? There's an opportunity for people to showcase the work that they have been doing, and it can be really inspirational like I. I think it. Kim mentioned there so many new. Maybe it was candidate so many new graduate students, or or people who've recently finished their degrees. Who Come to this conference and you can just. Sometimes I'm just blown away by how much it grows exponential growth intellectual growth year after year, so I've been going to the conference since two thousand nine I. Think was my first when it was in in Minnesota. And I've been trying to be a regular ever since so hopefully. Hopefully, there will be a chance to get us all together. In twenty twenty one so that we can do the roundtable in person because the same. I haven't I met Kim for the first time at last year's Mesa and candice. I've never met before so yeah. I can't wait till we can all be the together working on something like this together. In a throat to the floor. Although Brock I think we were in the same room. ally. And I was I was really moved as well by that panel. It was really I think that's the other thing. Is that in a lot of other academic circles need talk about we all need to be engaged scholars and with indigenous cultures. Let's just really not a some kind of conversation you ever have to have. Games yeah, exactly we're already engaged with. Our own. Communities were constantly called on to speak in a in a variety of settings. We choose our our engagements really carefully. It's not a question of if or you know whether you should. It's it's What kind of engagement do you want to do? YOU WANT TO BE PART OF MR MR CHAIR IVO if I may Joe sure. The chair recognizes. I'm just curious about those who've been denise If you notice every year is slightly different. I mean or is there an attempt? To invite research clusters around a theme or no, because I know some conferences do that does does NASA oh shoot good question if they have themes, I don't take note of it. There's always there's always the local or regional cultural. Groups that are hosting and featuring their own stuff. Yeah. I have to say after the New Zealand meeting and their entertainment night I'm sitting at my banquet table Say d'Almeida saying I'd hate to Toronto Man. I would not WANNA follow this. Yeah it was, it was but. They had great stuff planned for Toronto like our TV confessions. Anyway? I, don't know. Is there a theme I don't know that there is. There's always there are special events, and there's you know I. Think in in a sense. The theme is the the local and regional people's and their their their cultures and history for sure. Right I'm in. We always look forward to that. Being featured to actually this just popped in my head I mean there's only so much space in an event like this are there are typically a lot more proposals than there are room to showcase them? I do recall a program committee. People sang emails over the last few years. Our number of proposals are increasing and You know, please don't take it personally when your panel or your paper is not accepted that it is getting, it is getting more competitive and the other thing I've noticed in the last few years. Is You're seeing? Scholars show up from especially non indigenous scholar, showing up from other associations that that I've never seen I'm like what are you doing here? That's kind of interesting right like so I think Mesa is getting much more visible and and people that are active in Mesa and its leadership and and are eaten as our Grad students to. It's not just the senior people right younger people to. They're really taking intellectual leadership positions and their other respective academic associations. and so that's probably helping. Draw people to NASA's I think of Grenoble graduate students. They're still Grad. Students and they're already sitting on big panels at AAA. You know. The American Anthropological Association Literary Festival Conferences and things like that, so so the fact we made the cut with our roundtable is no mean feat. Yeah I was pretty happy. can are you gonNA ask us about? The impact of social media slash new media on research, teaching and public intellectual output as outlined in the program of NASA's. I was okay I'm sorry. I'm so I'm so excited you're GONNA, get another question there. I think I did yes, just repeat what you just said. I don't. Know I don't I can't remember everything. You just spewed out there Paul. Thank you. That's what I did. Some slow words strong together. I don't remember that was a salad. Mostly remain lettuce really Gosh I don't know I'm just curious about the now I forgot to. Moving on, let's just move on. So I, guess I still have the floors. Is The chair still oak? Yeah, well, you know it's kind of hard for me to chair this thing because you know we're. We're not in a room. Look anybody else ourselves and for me I'm doing this a recording while fending off of my cats, WANNA keep an interview by computer. Outside. Yams roasting in her. UNAIRCONDITIONED apartment because I'm in the basement. How are we handling this like I remember doing the check ins earlier like this summer handling what Hadley, covert handling this you know social distancing and everything else like that handing the revolution underway in. So with office, pertinence to candidates will race relations and police brutality pretty much. Yeah, we know one time I broke. I broke. I broke ordine. Quarantine to our black lives matter. demonstration actually sorted I. You know it was. It was something I was. I seriously considered it I was like I didn't go. I would have gone without thinking about it. previous cove, but the young with Kobe was like seriously going okay, I really WanNa be there, but am I am I in danger more than I'm meeting points and I figured okay. We'll do our best to. Mask up, and the have to say. The organizers were super surprised at about everybody else, but in Emerson we fifty thousand people talk about the same in Winnipeg. Yeah, it was quite something. Yeah, and it was quickly, and it was like silk with the organizers has I think this. The spontaneous reaction sort of indicated that sort of underlying anger and everyone was. Everyone! was there was Raga Mats and if they weren't, there are people out. And, the amounts made sure that everyone was. You know protecting themselves as much as possible while having the need to express themselves about the. Credible large issue. This is a this a genuine question I mean. Is there a way to integrate all of these developments within within the topic of of this roundtable. I mean we have on the podcast talked about What's going on in the United States said it's obvious echoes and Canada with regard to police brutality We raised the idea of defunding the police. In fact, abolishing the police, which was funny, because at the time we said, can you imagine a sustained serious conversation about those things and we're like? NOPE, can't and all of a sudden it's everywhere, and and of course we've been talking about. Cove Creek quite a bit. The disproportionate effects leave the data deficits with regard to the impact on indigenous peoples. How does that fit into the overall discussion about podcasting impact on? Research Teaching public intellectual put I'm just trying to understand your question. I'm looking at the at our roundtable overview again. Independent interactive indigenous media intellectualism and you're asking about how Ol- How podcasting is is working within current social movements and upheavals can't Ken brought up this. He wants to check in and I thought I'm going to try and a takeover. The chair duties here and say well. How does that relate to what we're doing? Because I think yeah, in a way, the question is how can podcast. Like ours seized the moment and illuminate the moment makes sense of the moment, and to what extent are these? Both of these things I mean Ken may just have been like how you guys doing just checking in, but I've co-opted his impulse here now. I think that Senator Dole Tha- that's where my mind goes. I think that's a question. So in addition to PODCASTS I. You know I've been watching a lot of live streams to communities I cannot stand mainstream media. They do not have a clue about about the kinds of critiques and analyses that Black People are making the black lives. Matter is making that that other communities like indigenous communities are making an end critiques of the State. They just don't get it and they always water down. What people are saying because they can't get beyond the US white supremacist state as the default. Thing, we need to change change. It cannot be reformed just like the police can't be reformed so the only place I'm getting news that is. Not Making me WanNa. Scream is like Unicorn riot. Live feed life feeds from community members of South Minneapolis because I in Parker up there so I got a lot of people on facebook, so I I'm getting a ton of news of there what the communities are doing to support one another materially. so in podcasting comes into that right like you shared with me that champagne sharks analysis of the Obama what I'm calling the Obama Manatee town halls. And I've been feeling that way about Obama too, but like I didn't do with two and a half hour analysis like. What's his name? The Champagne Shark Sky Trevor Bolio. Yeah, he's awesome. Right so. T, though just by heard people condom Mt Anyway so I. Think it's incredibly important because we're not going to get this from MSNBC CBC CNN. You know all those not to mention the the right wing news channels, but I kind of view mainstream settler. Quote Unquote Liberal News is conservative news anyway to so. have any of you ever gotten feedback? When we do kind of on the fly analysis of events like those that happened at what so it in have you ever gotten feedback? Wow, like you really helped. Put it into a bigger picture for me in a way. That wasn't. So obvious On CBC TV or global, or what have you? I definitely got a lot of that. After this shows, we did on land defense. It was interesting both from like students, but also other working journalists people who? Were concerned and trying to think about how to think about it right and I think that's really a big challenge. When like Kim said like mainstream media just really often don't have clue. They don't have a deep historical understanding of what's going on. They can't make sense of alliances. They can't make sense of wetland offenses, and so I think you know the kinds of conversations we have give a feeling for how to language what they're seeing and what they're experiencing and and I think it's important to have some. You know historical. Quiz academic indigenous frameworks to really think with when you're trying to understand what's going on in a particular situation, or or why the mainstream media covers just feel so wrong and and that really comes to head. When you when you know these big events happen, I mean now that we have our this constantly changing context that we're all living working thinking in its has been really great to have these conversations with all of you because I. I don't have any indigenous colleagues in journalism school, and certainly with Cova. We haven't been in like any kind of elbow. Touching moments with anybody else right like sort of you know you're sort of Maroon. So having these conversations has been great, and you know I've listened to the podcast that Cannon Brock and Rick have done that. I haven't been part of those conversations in the ones you did within indigenous historian Mary J., mccollum with. Indigenous medical people to it's been really great actually. Know, this is interesting. I came across a tweet on my timeline from from Zoe. Todd and she talked about how prior to Grad School. She had kind of been a small l liberal in a lot of her ideas, and she said she was really radicalized. By Grad School and and when I think about it. I think in some ways. This podcast is radicalized me like the basically and I blame the four of you for doing that. And because I think if if left to my own devices I, Kinda I kinda find myself veering towards a liberal type of take something, and then I get slapped and snapped back into reality by my conversations with you, and and you know I mean just the concept of white supremacy right just framing that setting that up. Helping people understand that I. mean most in the liberal media would say well what we're. We're all Nazis here now right like the kind of. and. It's like well. There might be more in common than you think so all this to say I all lead up into is. How has the podcast? Effected your thinking whether it's radicalized, you more arts fortified. You're thinking more, you know. Let's start with you can. I think is Kansas. like I learn a lot from from you people. You people you. Try that again I. You people. Okay I was going to make a point about how Canada's is. It gives people language. Lane what they're thinking feeling. And for me. That's been one of the things I've been educated quite a lot. I've learned so much of doing this podcast because my colleagues at around here as well like they have expertise in the areas that I I thought I knew much about and I. Find Out I. Don't know as much as I thought I knew and it's. It's great like in terms of radicals. E meet at a I think was. China fully radicalized beforehand I've been. Timid for you can okay glad. This isn't like my politics. Hype Politics Said had shifted quite a lot when I started again. It comes from being educated about something that you thought you knew. Then you find out you know little or. I started as a treaty land claims research. That's when things started hitting me about the true history of this country. And what Canada is how it sat. You know the effective dismissal horatio of indigenous people. It's just it's one of these things where you keep learning more and more and finding ways to explain it This I've actually learned from this podcast out quite a lot in that area. So for me. It's been I. Love doing these things listening to because there's been so much intellectual and emotional by Lega terms of how I structure my teaching. Growth in those areas. Will they say wisdom is is understanding? How little you truly know! Something I prove every episode Brooke. What about you? How has you know this is part of the description in the program? How media indigenous controlled media influence research teaching intellectual output for the public. In what ways might that have happened with you? One of the. One of the first. Observations I had was that I have a tendency to focus on mainstream media. And similar to what others have described. Less with a ceiling that the coverage is inadequate or problematic. And so I often find like I. I'm quite immediate consumer as a result like I go through multiple media outlets in terms of trying to keep keep on top of what's going on in the world. And, so because I do that I'm especially. Intrigued with the types of conversations, we tend to have so I like. candace mentioned I also listened regularly when. I'm not part of the roundtable for that particular week. I make a point of always listening to tendency. Usually be Kim and Kansas. Who Alternate? So I guess, I'm just I'm intrigued by the content, I find the stories meaningful I find they in my own thinking as well and I do like the accessibility of of the podcast formats, and that it is audio, so it's something that I've listened to while on my way to work, or if I have time sort of bit of time to myself to. Do whatever I can I can put a podcast on, and just kind of get caught up in the in the issues and usually have that kind of feeling. Of of getting perspective that I wouldn't get anywhere else. So. Those are those are some of the key things that I find in terms of how I would related to my teaching I teach at the introductory level and For Indigenous Studies and that's one of the things that I. Looking ahead I do want to try to do do more new media in terms of and making it available to. I think it's for me. It's a little bit awkward because I. I I think that's kind of thing. It's like you don't WanNa. Be Necessarily although I think there are circumstances where it's warranted. The prophet assigns their own books. But? That's always something that seems but i. think absolutely there's instances when that makes total sense that people should do that, but there still as kind of like sheepish feeling about recommending the podcast to my students who are more or less Required to go along with with those types of requests I much prefer, and that's part of the reason why Nieces Fund is because that's when those conversations just happened organically when people will just mention Hey, I listened to your podcast. I love it. those types of feedback. I have to say I love the sound of whatever is that a bird behind you Brooke? That came in in the last little bit I'm working outside. It's scorching. It's like forty degrees with the humidity, so how long? Right now. A Beautiful Day. We live in the woods so like we get we. A black bear walked through our yard two days ago. There's. A beaver this morning. La Firefly's are out as of last night, so no, it's a beautiful place to be your grey owl over there. Dr doolittle anyway. Kim Candidates. You know what's interesting about Youtube for me. I knew can and I knew brock. For. Quite a while as as we've discussed. I cold called both of you. And you both agreed. I don't. Know if I had a reputation to proceed me and nothing good anyway, so it was very. You know when I think about is like what are you? What are you doing? You have so many claims on your time. Probably so many requests and this Yahoo from Winnipeg says wanted to be part of podcast and you're like. Yeah, let's do it. Always. I. said, I don't know Sir. What did you say your name was again? But I'd be curious to know based on what you thought going in and based on where things have ended up I mean. If the reasons that motivated you to do it other reasons why you continue to do it. And to what extent do they have to do with anything, intellectual or research or teaching related who I asked Kim I, so she can answer for. Oh. Why did I decide to do it originally? Yeah. Well. I Google I to make sure you were some Kinda on. Know I don't remember because that was in my first couple of years up here. I think it was like what early twenty seventeen or something yeah yeah. Well my main reason was because I wanted to get to know more about indigenous issues up here in Canada, because you know, it's really hard to avert your gaze from the United States. And I wanted an incentive right to not just focus on news from down there all the time and then also the you know into avert my gaze to the rest of the indigenous world more so that was my main reason at first and and now. has has that borne. Fruit has oh totally. Yeah, no I mean because every time we record I've gotta go. Read the news on and I am like I totally get up every morning I. don't even get up I wake up. I grabbed my phone and lay in bed, reading twitter for an hour before I even get which completely messes with my fitbit. Sleep score because it's getting more sleep. But anyway, so that's what I do right but yes, it guided me AG- again, and it still does I think to take a broader view at different news stories out there which has been really good for me, and then the other thing candice said to you know when I I give a lot of talks or I used to before the lockdown and every single talk. Talk I give I. Hear About Media Digital and many more people say to me I listened to media and digital. Listen to you on podcast than I then read my articles and I love to write, and I love to publish, so that's fine, but you don't have nearly the reach and academic writing as you do with podcasting popular writing, and that's really rewarding to me because I. I'm I use it a plan, or before I was an academic, and I want to reach a broader audience than the Academy for sure. Candice, what about you? What was the appeal for for you going in? And how does that compare to? Things have ended up. I think he emailed me and I maybe didn't reply the I. Apologize. but when I when I when it when I answered, it came at a at the right time for me, so you know I had recently been tenured My kids were old enough that I was sleeping through the night most of the time, and you're just like it came at the time when I was ready to kind of do something besides the the daily grind of of life, mother, Hood and work And I also was really craving conversations with indigenous people who were thinking about media. Had been the journalism school Dunkin accuser well known adjunct teachers, reporting and indigenous communities, but you know he works at the CBC. I I really felt very much on my own. And I was teaching media ethics, and having these really in depth conversations with students. It was the first to really bring in a whole three hour class. On first nations, issues especially. You know the situated NBC where we have you know obviously the what sorta inland defense, but a lot of other really big ongoing issues. and students are having to get out there and report so I really wanted to have a much more in depth conversation, and you know I went online obviously, and then I listened to an episode. I was like okay. This is great. I can get into this Brock episode. Also Kim tall is a is a big name in science and Technology Studies. You guys maybe don't know that because you're not in the discipline, but my head obviously known her per work I mean ever since I came to. SEM is a few years ahead of me, but people would say oh. Dino Kim Talbot because you're native, so you must know the other person. That's. We were the only two. So I mean I was really also looking forward to being in conversation with Kim and three of us have really did a lot of episodes together and I mean the first episode I. Don't Know How you guys were when you first started doing it, but I would listen afterwards to my side of the recording. Be like. Did I say anything really? And I finally stopped doing that after like three or four episodes, most because I didn't have time, but also because I was like okay well, Rix are really get editor, and hopefully don't come office. Saying something stupid, Slow Down Kansas I don't know why. Save Fast enough people don't notice. But it had it has made it into my research and teaching me. We had a few of the episodes in the book. I did with Mary Lynn, but also I've you know this is one of the rare of resources we have a teach within journalism that really goes after mainstream media representation comes out with a really thoughtful indigenous response as to why. Coverage isn't good enough and how it needs to improve, so I think for me. It's been a great resource to teach with, but also point students, too, but it's interesting, because as we've discussed before and I don't necessarily bring this up. For us to go into it again, but you know one of the. Components of this of this particular roundtable was to talk about how producing for a primarily indigenous audience compares to producing for a mass audience. Brock. I remember we talked about this so I try to remember who exactly I spoke with about it. I knew brock may have been also Ken, but. Isn't that settlers studies at one point. Chris okay, yeah yeah so how much of what we do on the show? In a sense relies on. Settler actions and reactions and ideas and thoughts, representations and misrepresentations. And therefore arguably focused on what they do or don't. Do you know what I mean and so I mean? Maybe that's ironic. I don't know. Maybe that's a welcome. It is a welcome corrective. We all enjoy. These conversations helped. Sorts are thinking out But Yeah I guess the ultimate indigenous podcast would. have nothing to do with with with settlers, but you know we live in Canada and. When do we get a second or millimeter of an opportunity to imagine that? As I've discussed elsewhere. Settlers almost part of the deal they get by being settlers. Is they get the luxury of ignorance? We don't have that luxury so I don't know maybe that contradictions built into the podcast. I wonder, too. If that's built into Neesa as a whole, if a lot of the research that is done is. Here's what Whitey did to us this. This time in this place at this time. You know what I mean. I raise it in kind of A. Floating. BALLOON UP THEIR WAY. I wish I had the article in front of me because Brennan Cocoa Fit. To who is Mardi scholar at University of Waikato? Who hosted the meeting last year and he's a among the leadership of Nisa. He writes about this actually quite pointedly, but I. Don't have the article in front of me. where he basically says we spend too much time and indigenous studies talking about the colonizer and he has a response to that, but. I'd have to go get the article and. And and go through it I. Mean I basically that you know. We focus too much on the colonizer, and we spend too much time. I think he says. Focusing on tradition, or what is authentically indigenous, versus just how do we? How are we living as indigenous people? I think he wants to get away from. Conversations That are holding up notions of anticipation and really just wants to look at how you know. How are we living as indigenous people? He puts it in a much more complicated than that, but that is kind of a good challenge for us right like. Is it possible for us to talk about issues without always gazing up at Whitey as you say? You, can we can we do start doing episodes where we're looking at what are we doing? But of course, ingenuity, itself is in part. In we can have a debate about this is in part defined by settlement right. I mean do you have indigenous people without settlers right, and so this is why probably focus on our people hoods specific stuff which I was going to say way back at the beginning I. DO think at some point the the word in the term. Indigenous is going to also lose traction in favor of what I don't know I. Don't know specificity like we'll talk about. Specific people specific mission we we already do that, can we all we already are very clear about that that that are people hood specific relations matter perhaps most to us, but we've learned a lot by global indigenous organizing and I was a late comer to accepting determined to Genesis. I think I've talked about on the show before, but a lot of that had to do with the fact that I realized it helped it helped us share lessons of decolonization, right globally in support, one another and But of course, our people had specific identities and relationships are most important. I, think! But so you can't replace it with that. I worry a little bit. The way that digits gets thrown around in this really vague way is going to evacuate of meaning, and it's going to lose traction eventually, but we're not there yet, so it's hard to say. Can you hear me thinking? Thinking very hard on. I'm just. I'm just listening to the people throbbing music out there. You know how it makes. CARS THROB LITTLE JASPER! Know to what extent is like. You say a pan indigene t that becomes so generic. It counters the whole point that we've been trying to make all along that. We are different. We have different priorities and seller. Colonialism flattened that. Occurred Sern I have. is beyond that it's. I think one of the main contentious points we can discuss in the term. Indigenous is the degree to which it's about ancestry. Among the quote, unquote original peoples of a place. And the degree to which it's about I. Don't think that's enough actually. I think relationships are important to on going relationships, not just as you will expect for me some genetic ancestry somewhere and not only ongoing relationships among indigenous peoples and with indigenous peoples, but ongoing relationships, and this is the contentious part for some people with our ancestors homelands. And you have big conversations and indigenous studies about what about diastolic indigenous people, and so, and there are people who really right within that area within the indigenous Dayaks Bre I wonder at what points. That no longer constitutes an ongoing relationship, and then we have conversations about reconnection and all of that, but I worry and you know there are a lot of people who would have a lot to say about this and I'm really interested in this conversation. At what point does diaspora simply too far away disconnected? and so that's where I worry. Indigenous is being pushed towards as a term. and I always want to center. Not only are ongoing relationships with one another as human beings are as duck, hunters crear whoever you are, but also our ongoing relationships with with our non human relatives and those places that produced us as indigenous peoples. And I'm not willing to give up on the ongoing part. And I would say there are people who disagree with me and their use of indigenous, and I worry that if we push it too far towards that, it's going to completely evacuated of meaning. You change in relationship to the to those places as well. I mean our people's change in, but their relations are what are important to me ongoing relationships. I didn't say static. Yeah. I'm not sure I'm not communicating this very well. This could be a whole other round table discussion. We can leave it. Rick and go to something else. This is a controversial conversation. It just so, what's what's the controversial part of it so that if we make it about ongoing relations than it excludes some or Yup so in in my critiques of Elizabeth, Warren for example people automatically conflated with not helping adoptees reconnect. These to me are completely different issues right there. If there's somebody or something to reconnect with, that's important, I think so. That's one of the directions that it gets taken in where people are disagreeing with what I'm saying and the other one is the centrality of land. I spoke at a conference was an indigenous conference was a conference at University of Tennessee a couple years ago on refugees and Migration, and people completely missed the point as far as I could tell. They were when I said I. Think you need to have ongoing relationships with land. And they were talking about what about displaced people will you're up here? Make some relations. You know make some relations, and that means with this place, and not simply in there's a conflation of of settler states with the land as well that happens by people who come into you know this this continent or anyplace else when I talk about this place. I'm not talking about Canada. The US. I'm talking about the land in the water. And all of the relations that live here, and that's really hard to get through to some not quote unquote non indigenous people. Anyway that's twice said. This is a much bigger conversation. There's multiple parts of what I'm saying. That are really controversial from different perspectives and different disciplines. Well, I I've always been attracted the concept of Diaspora because to me built into there is this idea that an outside force intervened and broke apart people and that you know you could apply concepts of migration describing his people's refugees from their home territories like that's what appeal to me because it, because I I'm trying to find language and I'm trying to get rid of the innocence can't always seems to or the blank slate that Canada always seems to trying attached to itself Oh. We're not like the rest of the world. We don't have refugees. We don't have displacement. Migrants? We don't have with internally and it's like Canada's. A big place got a horrible history. Got All those things, but. Yeah No, it it. It would be a very rich discussion. Maybe a whole conferences worth. To talk about indigenous Diaspora. And whether it's meaningful, or whether it's not or somewhere in between. For me anyway, listening to what cow him thinking about it like I I don't know how to describe to define being indigenous without talking about. Connection to both. The land that my ancestors. Are. One width rate and. my connection to the my current place of residence which. Also is indigenous land so. Yeah, so I'm having. Trouble thinking about feeling the word in any other way. Ken Brock. You're your thoughts. Kim The way. She speaks about relationships I. Find Myself. Re Examining House phrased connections. Using the word indigenous in the word connections in those kinds of things in you know in how she talks about good relationships, you know maintaining the sense of responsibility, but also rigor towards each other as really helped, and also there are things I'm still learning about from her. That I can't right now. babbling Wayne can't articulates clear. In this moment that I'd like to. Say something, and maybe I don't believe it, but I kind of believe it I think bad relations are better than no relations. Oh! If you're going to claim to be. Connected you know like I have I you know we all have a lot of contentious relationships in our home communities I mean. You know it's not easy to move home. childproofing Albert No. I'm, NOT CREATE Yeah. Professor, PEDAL WANNA to. You have. Those are thoughts for me. He's one of the things I find especially for. Dakota Niche KNOB relations. We have our own histories of displacement. And War. In some cases, where indigenous peoples have become usually recent recent history have become involved in in larger sort of settler politics as well and so like for instance in in Minnesota. The very first name that I attended to. There was I. Remember Somebody. Kind of making a joke with me, about will welcome to your traditional territory because there are initial Bacon Minnesota now. But. That is a fairly recent development, and and well the initial eight moved into that area. They were dispossessing in displacing other indigenous people, namely the Dakota, and so I I mean I I'm thinking really carefully about what Kim just said because that's something that has been on my mind for for a long time I, liked Ken. Also indicate is struggles or -tated, but that definitely influences I mean there's a reason why. Why. I'm in it I I'm living in this territory now and one of the things I was going to mention like. If I'm invited back for next fall, rick on the podcast again. I no longer want to be i. no longer want to be introduced from McDougal -Tario. Because while teaching treaties class this year, I, realized this rural township by living is actually named after one of the colonial treaty makers own. Andrew McDougall who went around and he actually as as that job wins. It seems like he wasn't that bad. Still I thought it's a little bit ridiculous to name this place after after him, and so I was thinking okay. I need some more time to think about that whether it's like going back to language. So I mean in terms of like her her. Reminding of the importance of place identity in relationship, those are all things that there are still very much fluid because I also count myself part of that diaspora. Ken mentioned earlier that I'd spent time in Saskatchewan that's where I grew up like on the very sort of periphery Shabi, territory whether there were art nationality people, but who come like Nicola walk who have like a different tradition, so they're like very close relatives, also a speaker, virtually identical language, but I i. just that's one of the things I. I'm sensitive to. Because like for creepy people. Furnish snobby people. If you WanNa talk about territory, their vast like. Just finish topic you're looking at. There's even a national community all the way into BC Soto first nation just like. On on the other side of the rockies I believe. And so you have National Bay communities almost to the west coast all the way out east, whereas like I think of nations for e c You have so many indigenous nations in now in that, but is now a province and for them to have. That sort of I don't want to call it a geographical restriction, but I mean just in terms of our relationships universities. It means that they have very few home universities, and so for an academic who is restricted to their home territory than any. Sort of any indigenous scholar from that area would be looking at only a handful of universities like University of British Columbia UNBC Simon Fraser. University of Victoria Roads I'm sure they're like Thomson River They I. Mean it just means that it has different meanings. Depending on on the the the person in the nation that they. That claims them and that. They identify with so anyway. I agree deep thoughts for service, a whole other podcast, no doubt Yeah and This is probably as long as the roundtable would have gone. At Mesa and one thing I'll say though is Brock, if if if the statue of McDougal on the town square gets taken down. I. Think we'll know who. Your way. I'll let you know if I find the statue not aware of. Okay. well get to all the questions. We get all the questions Oh. We certainly did accept accept It says in the program description. After panelists respond to questions posed by the chair. We'll take questions and comments from the audience. I think we've Gone Long. So which can often happen, and so I'm going to defer those two later hearing any objection, the sorry chair I've taken over your role here. Chair recognizes chair beans usurped. One more question though. How hopeful are we? That Ojok Nacer Twenty twenty one is going to happen through five. Announced the date yet. It's usually mayor June right. This one was early. May. You know they'll I know. They'll have to the problem with these big hotels. Is it I? Assume. This one's a hotel. We have both campus meetings and hotel meetings. depending on the capacity of a local campus to host, and it's a problem because our conferences so big now that we often have to do these big expensive hotels, and then you get into contracts. And you have to cancel sooner rather than later in court we we have insurance for that, but that's GonNa. Be there. They won't be able to make any obviously for anybody's schedule any last minute decisions about it. I'm I'm only fifty percent hopeful. It's going to happen. Okay? Okay I didn't know what others think, but maybe I'm being overly cautious, even less than that like Be examined second waves of pandemics. And Third Way as yeah, we haven't seen the second wave yet. Second is almost always worse so. Suggest some places have not even seen a true first-wave so. Yeah. So all that to say. Maybe they'll figure out by then how to do a virtual meeting. I've already seen a four s the other meeting the candidates and I sometimes go to the Society for Social Studies of Science they're moving. Their meeting was supposed to be remember where it was the year. Candice Somewhere in Europe in Prague Prague and they've. They're moving it online. Yeah, well. We have a huge fan base in Mexico so I'm sort of sad that we might not get your fat. Know! Very many at all, never check the data, but that was the big along with not being able to have all of us together in one place I was looking forward to. There's a lot of listeners to media digital in Toronto and that would have been We'll I guess we'll just have to have our own event whenever we can have yet and event of our own. Well Kim Candidates Brock and Ken I WANNA. Thank you all so much for. For everything. This I think was a pretty decent approximation. Reasonable Facsimile of what we would have had a discussion about it in Toronto. Yeah, the questions would have been great though and I didn't get to tell Neesa gossip stories, which is good. missed. And you're involved in none of them. Some of them. Man Well! We could've generated our own gossip to boy. But thank you all. Thank you all so much and This is I mean candace, you and I and the CO author of Your Book About Journalism reckoning. We're going to be having an extended conversation, but that's it for for a regular type of episode until September. So I hope people enjoy the third ever summer series. All of you will figure prominently and all those episodes so. I hope you enjoy the summer and such as one can given all. That's going on in the world. The world is on fire. Some people put it. But. I'm hopeful fingers crossed that weakened in some way connect. Over the next few months before the fall comes back. Keep the connection going. Keep our relations. sounds great. How do you like that I? Tied it up pretty good, didn't they? Discuss tape. All right take care you all. Thank you take care. Bye. And that's it for media and digital episode, two hundred and thirteen record, the early afternoon of June tents, two thousand twenty thanks again to Ken Williams Assistant Professor With the University of Alberta Department of Drama Brock Pitino Qua- associate professor of indigenous studies at York University Kim. Talbert social professor in the Faculty of Native Studies at the University of Alberta in Canada research. Chair in Indigenous Peoples Techno Science and environment and Candice Collison Associate Professor in the Institute for Critical Indigenous Studies and the Graduate School of Journalism at U. C.. Me I'm your host producer and editor Rick Harp now as noted, there's a couple of episodes to go before our third ever summer series, but this will be the last quote unquote for boarding until September. I think you'll enjoy are compilations of conversations dating back to the beginning low four plus years ago from genocide to the arts data to drugs we've interwoven of. Discussions that together are greater than the sum of their parts. Thanks for listening and we'll talk with you against. Agassi. Steam mystic. Recruiting.

NASA Kim Indigenous Studies US Ken Canada Neesa Kim Candice Brock American Indigenous Studies As Toronto Oklahoma Winnipeg Mesa Ken Williams WanNa For Indigenous Studies science and Technology Studies Faculty of Native Studies
Talkin Tech, Dabblin in Data (ep 221)

MEDIA INDIGENA : Indigenous current affairs

1:16:45 hr | 6 months ago

Talkin Tech, Dabblin in Data (ep 221)

"Hello I'm rick hard. This is media and digital the summer of twenty twenty edition. On this week's collected connected conversations, we get down with data and tight with tech. And we begin in a space many of us know all too well. Social media specifically facebook the walled garden produces more than its share of ambivalence one. We can't live with one we can't seem to live without. A feeling Kim tall bear associate professor of native. Studies at the University of Alberta Echoes here in this January twenty eighteen conversation with myself and fellow round Taylor. Ken Williams System Professor of drama also that the. You, know I've been thrown facebook twice because my name is Talbert and they thought it was spank. So when they were throwing off while the. Drag performers with their quote unquote fake names they were also throwing off native people a couple of years ago I it was a whole bunch of rigmarole I had to go through to get back on facebook but what that issue taught me this one teaches me is that they really need to hire somebody frankly at facebook to do global indigenous relations because they do not know what they're doing. His facebook is huge and indigenous communities right I. Mean it's a it's a double edged sword for us, but it really has enabled. A lot of global indigenous networking and communication, and you know, and in one sense I was happy when I got thrown off because you know it's I spent too much time networking with people on the other hand. You know I don't know what's going on at home because everybody at home on my reservation is on facebook. I hear tribal news, I, share syllabi and information with junior colleagues. You don't like to use e mail. So there's a lot of real work I think that happens there as well. So it's you know we we need it I mean it's really become. So central in an indigenous lives and relating I think. Although, you know my mind it also goes to the place of why can't indigenous people just have their own social networks under their control I mean some people have tried to frame this as a question of sovereignty of course We don't necessarily have the resources to mount a social platform like facebook on the other hand. There's lots of open source options out there. Then dishes people could corral together and utilized for their own benefit can have you ever looked at it in those terms while you look at the other kind of social platforms that do try to compete with facebook and they just cannot it's It's so ridiculous it's become a monster unto itself and No. I'm not saying that that that's not a bad idea to some. You know it's just something that has been tried by other other entrepreneurs and other major platforms like Google like how many people use Google plus like to use Google, plus you got to get people to dump facebook and in that's the first thing and I don't think that's going to. Until something better comes along that the knee meets our needs and different way. But could you make a similar to to land claim? Could you make a a cyberspace based claim? We have claims to land. We have claims to airspace right I mean that's territory of. That does not follow maybe I. Just kind of through this abbey but I wouldn't say, no, I wouldn't say that's not a possibility but then you'd have to say, well, what is facebook would essentially does facebook do is. Service. Even. Though it's a private company are therefore you can say that it must do certain things can what the CRTV says that the cable companies have to do in Canada. I think it's I know it's fought regulation in a Lotta ways, and maybe that is something we have to look at that. When something becomes this massive has to become responsive to consumers in a different way. So I think it's in the realm of possibility I don't know how successful it would be, but I think it's possible agree with Ken to like when I got thrown off. FACEBOOK I. I had all these I was tweeting about it and I had a bunch of heck types on twitter respond back to me about what the other options were but they basically said the same thing. So ellos out there and I got on L. O. but like there's almost nobody on that, your true none of my friends are on its yet the Google plus I never use. It really was very difficult to meet facebook's like a nation, right? That's why some people call it a nation the only way it's going away when there's a revolution and it implodes and something else emerges from the ashes and I don't think we can purposefully designed an alternative but it but it does raise questions. Does it not about if something becomes almost that essential almost kind of like a utility like status, but it's in private hands. You know it because there are people who are saying access to the Internet is a human right or should at least be seen as such. Discussion that will be happening in the future because. Yeah you're right facebook. The Internet is absolutely essential. No, that's what we're seeing why the big fight is happening in the in the United States about net neutrality what it's going to mean to developments of anything because it is because become. An essential communication, service? From one platform to another week. Oh, now take wing to the so-called micro blogging site known as twitter. All sorts of people tweet all sorts of opinions, not least indigenous people. So. Let's go back into cyberspace and what some people are calling native twitter. In fact, there's actually a Hashtag Hashtag that frankly I haven't seen used all that often lately, but it did catch. Your eye can end. You wanted to talk about it. As. Something that was a something more than just a Hashtag. What what? What's giving you that sense what? What else might it be? What is represent for you? Well I. Think this is where when you're talking about. Sovereignty on in Cyberspace I saw a a It was I'm not going to say specifically who this was about because I don't know for sure of the information passing accurate than the person but the person passing it is pretty darn sure it is but it was one of those cases where of pretend Indians people who posed as indigenous people in this case posed as an additional person for the sake of movie and TV roles, and this is something that's been going on for quite some time. is a in Hollywood and Canadian television dwell unfortunately, and than. I saw the Hashtag native twitter and it was like it was a coal. It was like native twitter do this. This is something as a group we have to get ourselves involved in and I found it very interesting because it kind of reminds me a bit of island more for me I don the more was the continuation of a resistance has been continuing for ever and it was just it entered the twitter with a really great hash tag and now I think this is kind of like something more generic, but it's kind of I. Think it's a sense of community building. Is Well as activism. This is this where. Like you were talking about sovereignty in the sovereignty it broadband sovereignty in cyberspace. Is this what this is going to look like that we we take these claims and we identify our people this way and It was just something I found fascinating as an evolving kind of de issue about additions, people being more assertive about who they are and where they are. Now the interesting thing about twitter I suppose this may apply to native twitter as well. Compared to facebook it doesn't I think enjoy as much quantity of participation but of course, it does seem to attract certain types of professions like journalists, for example, Politicos and including politicians obviously people like that who almost make make a living trucking in opinions if you know what I mean oh. Yeah. I mean I. I would say the majority of the threads that I follow in the news that I pick up on twitter it's got to do with indigenous issues and so most of my favorite twitter accounts are indigenous people. There's also a few black studies scholars race scholars and science studies scholars I follow as well and then people involved in those conversations. So actual scientists journalists maybe indigenous up pipes I follow activists artists so. Yeah. I mean every morning when I when I wake up, literally pick up my phone and I checked my twitter stream and some mornings I get stuck laying in bed for an hour reading news and this is how I keep up on what's going on out in indigenous world's have you ever done what I do accidentally dropped the phone on your face lying in bed looking at tweets Yes. Yeah. Yeah Terrible but really it's like it's how I keep up. You know I in I'm really grateful to all the people out there especially women there's been a lot of indigenous women you know with the me too stuff out who really push back against things and I feel like we've got there's kind of this frontline defence of Indian. Country that that is. It seems to me it's disproportionate women to a few man, but it's mostly women that could just be my own bias but. That's my perception too. I will confirm that bias I will confirm it I don't know I I think it seems like women are have more of a stomach forgetting it that kind of fight in arguing these points yeah I think you're right I think it is mostly women at this point but my question is how can we say whether it's influence is actually felt off line as Opposed to simply being a case of tweeting to the choir. So I think you know just like anything else it's going to be who uses it who makes it, and who you find in her we follow, does it lead to great substantial change I think it leads to change different. I think it helps people mobilized and move and find things that they need to know and and Other happening off twitter that it's a great tool for organizers in addition to facebook live and all the other types of things that we use. I, think the other thing about twitter is it's for me. It is real life. It's not like separate from real life. So you've got to manage it in the way you manage your real life and so one of the images that always comes to my mind you know I could be having a really great conversation with some other indigenous thinker on on an issue that we both thought a lot about working out your. With your threat on twitter. Then some Bozo comes in who doesn't know anything about the issues in tweets stupidity at us and usually a white guy you know it's just like real life but you can have great conversations there and you can get a lot of group thank don and I for me. That's what happens on indigenous twitter and that's why it's so important that people are are blocking and getting rid of the people that are adding nothing to the conversation that are not ready for prime time that don't have the background inability to really be in the conversation. The other teams I find on the positive side of that is as well as that you know it's I've I've run into. A, bunch of authors never would have found about any in any other way and and people who are thinking and and really quite critically I find quite fascinating. I never would have found them if it was twitter with, it's Kim came on my radar. Now, would we say native twitter is a specific roster of people or is it? Is it a vibe? Is it? Do you know what or is it both I mean I? I'm just curious about the the contours. Now why you think about that let me answer the question I posed not not too long ago about the real world import mindful of of Kim's belief that that distinction is a false or shaky when. I would say the appropriation prize. Brouhaha. Started on twitter is a bunch of non indigenous intelligentsia laughing about appropriation and suggesting that far from being an actual thing that we should take series we should make fun of it. In fact, give out a prize for the best version of it and people came down fast and hard on and I. Remember like this was I I was up late one Sunday night early morning dropping the phone my face in bed a few times and saw this unfold in real time in front of my eyes. and. It was wild to see, and then then it became a story, right? Know I'm really happy that we had a largely positive conversation around this though said, there's so much. There is a lot of negative negative kind of impression of twitter I. Think I think it doesn't have to be that way as much as it turns out to be. I'm just glad none of us the word Twi. Bible. You just did you know what? Not At this does people use that all the time they to do? That I didn't even know that well, the more you know, Kim For all the good it can do that digitalization of life can. Just make bad things worse that includes punitive welfare schemes that stigmatize and shame poor people for the poverty and as well here on this roundtable from August twenty seventeen. Australia found a way to make such judgment high-tech. Dear again, Kim and Ken. Thirty second topic now, why critics say a new way to distribute welfare in Australia maybe reinforcing some old prejudices known as a cashless welfare card, the federal government wants to expand its use after testing it out at two sites, both of which it turns out our regions with significant indigenous populations, twenty five percent and seventy five percent respectively according to the government's own website. The debit style card is designed to limit people's access to cash withdrawals to just twenty percent of funds provided. Meanwhile, the other eighty percent can only be used at approved retailers and cannot be used to buy alcohol or to gamble. Former Australian prime. minister. Tony Abbott under whose watched the trials were launched recently defended the program saying quote if you're working age person on welfare particularly if you've got kids why shouldn't very significant percentage of your tax payer income be quarantined for the necessities of life End Quote but Pat Dodson the senator from Western stratum who also happens to be indigenous told The Guardian Australia newspaper that the cards are quote simply a public whip to make people comply. Through the Jakonen measure of controlling their income unquote Kim, some clear dividing lines there, and you know as usual it, it can be tricky territory who championed the state subsidizing people's drinking or gambling habits. But on the other hand really isn't poverty stigmatizing enough without the state paternalistically telling you where you can shop and what you can buy. I'm wondering how you come at this. Well, one of the things that struck me about that story was The nature of the local cash economy that clearly the people designing these policies don't understand because that's not how they live. So the. Way in which these communities also are cash economies in. So people actually would have to spend more money going to an approved merchant to use those cards to buy the quote unquote necessities of life versus going to a place that sold them more cheaply but only accepts cash right? Going to garage sales and things like that, and and in purchasing a lot on the second hand market that's how I grew up right garage sales. That's how we got a lot of stuff for for our house. Sometimes, you're going to have those cases I'm sure it's a minority of cases where people are spending a disproportionate amount of income on alcohol and so it it just strikes me that seems like a very blunt tool. That's not exactly right for the problem I. Guess You could. Say to kind of automates the whole process. It takes people out of it kind of offloads out onto the onto the card onto technology. Well, do I mean there's there's a lot of intellectual work though and policy work that goes into making those kinds of changes within those bureaucracies right so it may just this is not an easy change sure and I should say that I think the the handling of this card the administration of this card has been contracted out to a private company so. If I'm not mistaken well, it would it. Comes to mind is when the Hudson's Bay stores with the only place, you could buy anything in a lot of remote communities and when they would control the economic life of indigenous people. In the North this is the twenty first century version of the same thing. If this is only for approved store, you can guarantee those stores are going to ensure that those prices are maximized for themselves for their prophet, and if it's a private company running it, you know they, of course, they're gonNA WANNA see profit on how this works. There's not they're. Not Worried about people's personal welfare they're worried about how can they maintain profit on this on the system now a piece this week ABC News Shared Anecdotal and contradictory reports of on the one hand a decrease in drunk bodies lying on pavements versus an increase in binge drinking fueled by the growing sly grog trade. Now, Grog is their word for for alcohol and sly production and consumption of alcohol can clearly wrestling with this practical issue on the one hand versus important philosophical considerations. Is there a way forward that can help us knit together that? If it doesn't make everyone happy makes the fewest number people unhappy That's a big question I got time. You know I was I mean I. do think that that people do the best they can do in terms of coming from different perspectives about which policy or or rule is going to actually make a difference in the problem I mean I think everybody most everybody in indigenous communities can agree It's not our individual failures or pathological that are. Ultimately the problem I think everybody knows this is our I would hope they know this is a structural problem seems like it's really hard to get policy making bodies to make to attack the structural root of problems versus attacking the really egregious symptoms you know down the line, right? I do think people make the best policy they make with a set of The information that they have but then you kind of have to see how that's going to change what's happening on the ground right and then these other kinds of circumstances come up that you didn't plan for the the thing I want to add to the cashless welfare Cardiff cash what's needed for an addict to get their substance? then. They will find ways to get that cash yet or they'll find an alternative substance. It's not looking at the roots what causes the addiction EST it's they look at controlling the substance and not understanding why the addiction exist in the first place because an addict will find something else if it doesn't work as a way to help people, what does it work as? It could be mostly government politics two it's base of voters, and that's perhaps the most cynical aspect of all. Now, I came across an article from the Guardian from May of this year, the headline cashless welfare card trial costs up to eighteen point, nine, million dollars, and that's for fewer than two thousand people who are forced to use it. Oh my God are you go? It's caused the department two point six, million dollars in administration costs and the private firm providing the cards Indu- or Ju I. N. D U E. Is One. Hundred seven point nine million dollar contract holy smokes. This is out of control while. while. I did promise to get you some numbers in terms of what exactly is the welfare rate there in. Australia according to the Australian Department of Human Services Website. when it comes to unemployment benefits, most single people can get around five hundred and thirty five dollars and sixty cents every two weeks, two hundred and sixty dollars a week the equivalent of just under fourteen thousand Stralia a year put that in perspective though the median weekly rental for a one bedroom flat in Melbourne or Melvin. As they said, they're three hundred and forty dollars a week and in the northern territory. Median weekly rent three, hundred, fifteen dollars. So this doesn't even match your weekly Rent as you folks may know there seems to be a lot of back and forth in terms of inspiration if you will for policy ideologically inspired policy between Australia and Canada And I don't think it's a remote chance of the Conservatives could return to power. I would not put them to try and implement such a card one day at least for on reserve income assistance. Of all the APPS I use I'd say Google maps is up there as far as utility goes not least when I'm in unfamiliar territory. So for Google to add indigenous places into the mix of their maps with him, a slam dunk. But as we discover in this June, twenty, seventeen discussion such cutting edge cartography may hide as much as it helps something I explore with Karen as then executive director. ABC News and current affairs plus Lisa Girban Shimshon, broadcaster and podcast. Turning to our second story, some seemingly good news from Google because they've announced that more than three thousand indigenous communities in Canada have been added to Google maps and Google. Earth this from a CBC report which notes that the updated sites include first nations, reserve lands, but also treaty settlement lands belonging to indigenous communities they site, for example, and urban reserve in Winnipeg where often go to gas. Up My car but I know there's some places like they've had the google trucks up in some places in nunavut where they've started to take pictures and satellite map it are they just like plain map or they going to satellite map thumb but you can really see the diversity in reserves of they do that because you'll see the reserves that are doing really well, and you'll see the Reserves that are still really suffering under the third world conditions. Yeah. Well, that's what I thought too. Maybe for the first time, people can actually see what reserves look like. That could be real eye opening experience I think for a lot of people. But then that kind of asks the question what is the threshold like where where does it become an invasion of privacy for communities like would? People like essentially outsiders than see aspects of reserves that you are that you wouldn't find in a a quick Google search like do reserve communities want the public to see abandoned buildings on reserves should people be able to see the yards that are overrun with bushes? Do Communities want to share those images of rundown facilities or maybe even the absence of facilities on some reserves so I guess this Would be decided by individual reserve communities in thinking about Google maps and like in your phone basically that you can access. I thought it was interesting because like well, Google maps does outline the streets of luck lambs. Luck Williams, itself doesn't have cell service there's no three G no L. T. you have to really rely on Wi fi but even then it's really difficult to find reliable hot spots in the village, and so I think that's a hindrance to creating online mapping. That's reflective of indigenous communities because you can make the maps. But then how useful is it to the community that you're going to be representing in an online mapping system? So you know even if you have the ability to provide the services online I, guess the question is, can you use those services? Practically is the flip side to that while that segues nicely into a discussion I wanted to have in of who are these maps four, who and what are these maps for? This reminds me of how maps really are stories right and behind every story is a storyteller who works to impose a a narrative on reality and how that can play out here I think. Is is the choice that's confronting whoever maps out these indigenous communities. So for example. Have they just decided to go with the boundaries of just reserves or was there thought of including the boundaries of the traditional territories of I. Man. You'RE GONNA get into you're going there. Right well, we hear a lot about cultural appropriation presumably map. Sir There are a form of cartographic appropriation. Right? Have I coined a new fraser. I think. So right I mean why he? It's such. It's such a problem I. Mean we get asked the Salat in. Why we use the Canadian map with the provinces in the cities, instead of using like territorial map of the origins of our of our land and what the land used to look like an just refer back to my own nation of the land that we were on changed over time. And I think there's a lot of disputes between us and the haudenosaunee still over where that border is. So. Depending you're talking about politicizing things that's pretty political where we draw that line and. Whose territory. There's always been problems withdrawing that surround traditional ends even before they were electron Iq I. Think I totally agree with that. I. Think also if you look at it from particular indigenous nations, views of their own territories, like you can see within the Simpson territory that there are different tribes that have specific territory within that territory and that's contested all the time and that plays out in. Everyday interactions like whose territory you're on even though you're in the Shan territory, you could be on another host groups territory, which further defines where like whose territory you're on, and so how do you map that and you're you're asking Wrigley maps for and that's a really interesting question because the probably not for the people who live there because it's not like I mean everybody knows where everybody's houses and they know where the band offices already and they know where the school is like like people know their way around their own communities so. It's interesting. I might be really interesting opportunity for first nations to sit there and to some of the points that Lisa raised to sit there and say, yeah, we're mapping out our community. We're taking control of that and we're deciding what the outside world like what we're going to show them. About what we want them to know or in our community like it almost becomes a way for them to develop their own story and communicated using new technology. I see possibilities in it more than dangers. Well, it's not a possibility actuality people are doing it. They've given it a name, it's called the counter mapping movement. It's definitely been taken up by indigenous peoples. Still if a map is not drawn by us, it will be drawn for us and maps tool to power I. mean they're meant to inscribe power on the landscape. When it comes to indigenous rights most their sights set on the lands and waters they hail from but in New Zealand, they've taken their fight to new heights, joining Kim and I for this March. Twenty nineteen conversation is fellow around Hitler Candice Call US Associate Professor in the Institute for Critical Indigenous Studies and the school of Journalists of writing and media at UB. Our topic. This week takes us into the future where new technology known as five G. promises to make our wireless lives. Painless ones to the global mail enthusiastically puts it when Canadian wireless carriers roll out five G, the fifth generation of wireless technology, it will offer faster speeds, higher bandwidth lower latency it will open the door to life changing innovations. Sounds Great. Right sounds lucrative too which is why I caught my eye on twitter recently that Marty in New Zealand have asserted a tree right to the spectrum that undergirds five G. but it's not the first time they have asserted this right as far back as the days of two g remember them. Eventually taking their claims to the country's Treaty Tribunal, which nineteen ninety nine ruled that the crown I e the New Zealand government must quote suspend the auction of g frequencies until it has negotiated with Maui to reserve a fair and equitable portion of the frequencies for modern. Long Story Short that didn't happen not for three G or four G FLASH FORWARD TO TODAY WITH THE government hoping to auction off rights to the five G. Spectrum early next year according to a news that is once it's worked with Maori to address Radio Spectrum Related Treaty of why Tangier Issues The foundational treaty on which this fight for the right is based. Now it seems the New Zealand government here wants to go to the same arrangement for five G. that critics say it imposed on Mari with three G. and four G. quickly walk us through what the government did in those cases in lieu of recognizing their total or partial right to ownership of the spectrum. I was really fascinated with this case in general just because this is you know decades of his unlike already with two g Murray were you know working very hard to make arguments about how important was to their communities, how much they were already using it and what they saw as the future. And they took the New Zealand government to court and the court actually sided with the mice. It was a tribunal and they agreed that the Maui had a quote prior interest in radio spectrum in other words according to this article in Spin Spinoff, which was written by a Maori person whose mother was really active in the original fight They they had. A right to this as a kind of natural resource, right as part of their treaty you know just like they would have rights to rivers, Flora, finest embed, etc.. And so the crown. Took this decision and said Oh well, actually, we don't really WANNA give you ownership over this. We're GONNA give you five million dollars and put it in a trust. So then you know my understanding is that they continue to do this with four G. where they gave a bigger settlement and you know added it to the trust money. But as they're approaching five G., they're saying, Hey, actually that's not what we wanted originally, and that's what we want now and this becomes that much more important because they've. Worked really hard to develop projects that take full advantage of. Five G. and five is really important in rural communities right where there isn't fiber where satellite connections are not always great. So Five G. is important especially when you have communities who are now really active using online resources people are using. The Internet as a means for cultural resistance for persistence you know for you know. So many of the things that indigenous people have been doing all along they take new technology and use that to support themselves going forward. The back in the four G. fight days the previous national government according to whatever news created a thirty million dollar fund. So they went from what was it? FIVE MILLION TO THIRTY MILLION RIGHT? Maybe they'll give one, hundred, million, this time or Even though you know, of course, what's at stake are billions and billions of dollars like this. If the hype is to be believed, five G. is just going to take us to the next level speeds for things like driverless cars quote unquote. For things like streaming and this is a technology that will become the backbone of those kinds of things. So some pretty simplicity, high stakes and I have to say I mean, this fight is. For me as well pretty fascinating, just the way it extends the concept of sovereignty to a realm I think most people don't readily think of as as relevant to indigenous rights. But but then again, the bulk of US have no idea how smartphones themselves work not intimately. Anyway. So maybe that's a factor here one I'm sure the state takes advantage of at some level but so in any case, I could see people rather challenged by this notion that this invisible radio spectrum deserves to be in the same category of rights as those connected to visible entities like landon water as you just said, Kansan, it's like it's almost as if radio spectrum by by virtue of being untouchable is an abstract construct and therefore a stretch. To claim as a right, but then it occurred to me when you really look at it, how would that be any more fundamentally abstract in the concept of property rights are those not justice constructed and contrived an invention? That have been rea- fide to impose a certain logic and order on the natural world. So to me, there's a, there's a a lot of analog between this conversation and other conversations about. The need for equity on resource extraction projects you know. So when it comes to resources and infrastructure those sorts of conversations involve bringing indigenous people in on as owners but they're actually very recent right that's only been in the last twenty to thirty years and you know it's much I think it's much more accepted now that Andrew has come along and there's been some big examples of Indigenous People. Running, you know major infrastructure projects. So to me I see this as more similar to those sorts of conversations than property. But I think you know all of that is still under the umbrella of the treaty rights and sovereignty because it seems the New Zealand government is relying on this idea that well, you know come on now you guys didn't invent the radio spectrum. You didn't invent the technology to come up with this. So this is this is preposterous almost they seem to be saying. So you're saying that the the New Zealand government is making an argument that. The technology used to take advantage of things found in nature were not invented by Maudet. Right We'll let me say to you Kim the words of the Communications Minister in place at the time in New Zealand in the year twenty ten when the when the four G. Battle was was being waged according to an article from news hub. Communications Minister Stephen. Choices pouring cold water on Maui Council claims for fourth. Generation telecommunications spectrum. The Maori Council said it was entitled to One hundred percent of the new fourth generation spectrum because the white donkey tribunal ruled spectrum was A. I, e treasure making it oury property under article two of the Treaty of White Donkey. But Mr Joyce the communications minister said, successive governments had not accepted that spectrum was a Donga. He says quote because spectrum was not in use at the time that the treaty was signed and was not known at the time that the treaty was signed it's difficult to argue it was die young. So nothing had. So I'm always saying this nothing has changed since the nineteenth century. So you guys weren't using all these quote, Unquote Natural Resources. You don't have the civilizational capacity to develop value from natural resources. Don't they get tired of telling the same ignorant. Colonial stories like their story never changes and they never learn. It's like it's still eighteen fifty five or whatever. You know. God the colonizer never moves on they don't learn anything. Yeah. Same same story, Same Old Story, which is predicated on a view that indigenous people are civilizational backwards now, they use much more liberal great language now than they used to use, but it's basically the same story I understand it. There is a specific specialities to the resource otherwise, why would New Zealand presume itself to be in the position to auction it off the can't have it both ways it seems to me. Yeah I mean there's some there's some I guess analytical. Challenge here right in considering it either as pretty or as infrastructure or as a treasurer or or were territory, right? Yeah. It's really interesting right because if you think about what it actually is right what five G. is is it's a it's a way of providing communication for a community. And you know if that's a big metropolitan area, will we kind of take it for granted communities along British Columbia's coast have just been getting fiber and when I've talked to people from those communities they've said you know this is really major infrastructure for us. We hope that this will. Allow people to come home to our communities and work from here. you know. So they see it as very much like a new highway a you know in the nineteenth century railroad, right? Of uses word before but it's it's a nexus point right of so many dimensions because if you look at it through through the prism of a treaty and a treaty is ostensibly supposed to be to the mutual benefit of of all the parties involved and I think that's what the the white tangy tribunal when it ruled back in nineteen ninety nine that Maui deserve a fair. And equitable portion of the frequencies they went on to say that such an arrangement is preferable to some form of compensation by the crown in lieu of the frequencies because Maori must have hands on ownership and management if they are to foot in the knowledge economy as we believe, they must in the coming millennium. So there's there's almost like an economic rate logic there as well that. It again, the treaty is about mutual benefit and by extension mutual prosperity but. It's also as you say. It's essential infrastructure. You know it's like electrification it's. A bottom line utility almost set. That is needed in order for people to take part in in in the quote unquote twenty-first-century economy the fact that the radio spectrum is Isn't what we would normally think of as a place. at least in the way, it's talked about in everyday discourse I. Think I do think there is some sort of you know mischief to put it mildly to to try and fog the issue. Well, it's not only place though it's also the animate things that inhabit those places whether their animals whether they're rock stars spectrum whatever I mean I don't know enough about spectrum but I imagine you could do a really interesting indigenous materialist analysis of what that means so and and that's not the way that I think the nonindigenous state will view it right view basically debut resources as non amit and subject to the absolute. Control of human beings and then I mean you've got conservationists who would say, well, you know we steward things. You've got the exploiters in the conservationists among settler thinkers. But what they share is their view that that that anything non human to be controlled by humans whether it's an kind of conservative way meaning conserving or whether it's a more exploitative fashion. So this is there's a really interesting conversation to be had about again the relationships between indigenous people and non humans in these places, it's not only the land. The land is not some static thing. That's it's also very much alive right and and comprised of many living things. This next discussion is also about a fight for control over what and who counts when it comes to data. Disagreements with many dimensions as we'll hear in this excerpt from our lengthy, sit down with Jennifer Walker Canada. Research Chair in indigenous health at the ranch in university, as well as core scientists and indigenous lead with ICS North Aka. The Institute for Clinical Evaluative. Sciences. Who? Data doesn't collect itself. There's a human being behind making choices about what to count, how to count who to count. Is that always well understood by say mainstream governments and authorities. Oh I would say it's not well understood I. Think we tend to take data at face value and say, okay, this is the you know the numbers tell the story. Speak for themselves. They speak for themselves exactly yet data are there steeped in assumptions the way that data are collected the assumptions that are made about the priorities for data collection, the types of things that are assessed who's in the data who's out of the data. These things are not benign and they established the base for story that would evolve a very different way. It's like the the soil that a plant grows in. For example, you know like it, you could plant that same seed in a different soil and you'd see different plant like it really does matter. The assumptions that are made about data collection can you give me an example? As it applies to indigenous population. So for example, there was there was a long period where first nations were saying, we want to collect the data about our health in our ways right? So in the early nineties, there was a lot of conversation about the way that Statistics Canada was measuring health and was collecting health data in first nation communities, and this evolved into not only a set of principles about first nations data. Oh Cop the ownership control access in possession, but also an entire initiative to collect data in a different way that talked about wellness from first nations perspectives that collected information that included you know things like residential school attendance or. Harvesting on the land or things like that that made sense from first nation perspectives, you're able to tell different stories with those data when they're collected from first nation perspectives, you talked about a cap ownership control access and possession can can you go into those? A. Little bit more in terms of an indigenous data I mean. Again this whole idea that data's neutral in some ways, a corollary to that is like, why does it matter who owns it? There's so much discourse about open data and the importance of data being you know sort of liberated for anyone to use and draw conclusions from and be innovative with, and I get that I get that those points. But what's equally important is ensuring that the stories that are told with data are told from the perspectives of the people that are about. So if the stories of first nation people or may t people are being told by other people. An hour by governments or by well intentioned researchers who don't understand indigenous data indigenous context don't maybe haven't spent the time understanding colonialism and the and the impacts the intergenerational impacts. Then what happens is the stories are shaped by assumptions and biases that continue to tell deficit based stories. They continue to drive that disparity and the narrative of difference that aren't that helpful. Actually did you I don't know if? The right word. But there go to specific example of what you're talking about I work with ICS data so that data covers all of Ontario health services in Ontario, what happens is that in northern Ontario and particularly some regions of Northern Ontario have very high percentage of people who are first nations. The stories that those days are telling are actually first nation stories but. They're being told by scientists sitting in Toronto or elsewhere who want to shine the light on on problems and I'm putting problems in quotation marks because they think by shining a light on them then something naturally will happen that will that will change things that will that will help. But what what actually happens is that increasing narratives about the sort of dispossession the disparity. Contributes to a narrative of these first nations. People can't take themselves or these people living in these remote communities. Have all these problems we need to take care of them. So this this idea that it actually takes power away when you keep shutting light over and over again from your narrative from your understanding about what the important messages are. So when I connect with those first nation regions and first nation communities about what the important messages they want to take from the data, it's rarely the same things that are priorities for people who have access to the data. If, you think about diabetes, it's rarely surprised to communities that their rates of diabetes or high right so they might need those data to show to advocate for funding. So sometimes, those deficit based if it's needed by the communities, sometimes those deficit based on negative stories help right actually can help, but it only helps if it's being used that way. Like knowing the rates is one thing but if the data are used the way that communities want to use it, it's usually to look at what's working what's working in our communities and those those data are not often even captured in the large data sets those stories behind the data and understanding where are the rates low where the where are things working? So one example is a, there's a diabetes foot care program remarkably. Successful anecdotally but doesn't have the sort of backing data to prove it and to advocate for more funding. That's where people want the priority to be right not in complete completely describing the problem you're after year after year it saying what is working? What do we? Where do we need to invest? So getting beyond describing and getting to asserting governance over data and determining the priorities for data use, but also using that data for governance right so if if decisions community decisions decisions at a policy level made based on data, that's where the strength lies. The strength doesn't lie in further depicting the problems. To pick up on another expression, nothing about us with us what extent have indigenous people become drivers and owners of their own data, which I think is kind of connects to a larger concept called data sovereignty. Do. Indigenous peoples at any level community level, regional level, national level, enjoy any. Real sovereignty over what information collected about them, the design of that, and then the ultimate fate in place. Repository of that data. So I think there've been a lot of people working hard hard hard at the Hudson's the early nineties right and I think that some progress has definitely been made. There are there are surveys So for example, the Mateen Nation in Ontario just did household survey that they're linking other data sets to be able to form a good picture of the nation and Ontario for example, regions across Canada are are doing this. I think though that for the most part, it's still requiring years of working in partnerships and probably compromises to be able to actually see this in practice. So you know it requires establishing data governance agreements, data sharing agreements with governments. That is not really sovereignty, right? That's not saying these are data. This is what we're gonNA, do with it in indigenous nations are working with provinces and the Canadian government and others to try and make this happen. They do require things to be done in a certain way plus there's all the legalities of these very legal agreements right that that have to be in place. So for example, at ICS. We try and have data governance agreements. We have one with the Mateen Nation of Ontario, one with the chiefs. Vantera. So for the for the one that she's fun -Tario, talk about being an embodiment of okay like this is how We adhere to oqab with the ICS data, but that P is possession. We can't legally. Out of ICS Sunday to first nations, we can't that's outside of the legal framework that we operated. We prescribed entity. So, in Ontario all the data come together we are prescribed entity. We can't just transfer our data out. So the data we are sort of a steward of data. But the data are collected by the Ministry of Health. It was like a privacy. Next time. Yeah it's through. Our privacy legislation, we can't just be sending. Raj, a record level data out. Can you concretize why this matters? So for example so really concrete thing is the Sioux lookout first nation South Authority had a a resolution passed by their chiefs that said, we are asking I. See us to give us possession of our data. They came to us and said, we require that you give us possession you send us our data we want to deal with it, ourselves WanNa Lincoln to our own data sets. We want to be able to do with it what we want and we want to control who can tell our story on Saturday over our data. Right. So you know they have a hospital there they could potentially do with their hospital data, but once the data from that hospital comes to ICS. It actually goes through the Ministry of Health I. It's not data that can be sense. We can't say all the members of those communities. Here's all your data and you can take it and go. So we have to work in partnership so. While in communities, what we would want is to be able to have that complete sovereignty. We're not there yet. We're somewhere along the path, right? So we're I could safely say we're in work around territory right now. I mean, do you think under the banner reconciliation or as a as an interpretation of instruments like the United Nations, declaration on the rights of indigenous people that that maybe we should be framing. Data as a human rate and thus funded accordingly. I absolutely think that data his originating question. It's not a stretch to interpret the United Nations Declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples that way it's not a stretch at all. There's articles in under that directly tell me that this is an important thing and also If we look at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission calls to action, there's calls to action directly about measuring health and these are really fundamental to self-determination. It would be a big stretch. I think have nation-building without also the data to be able to make decisions to set priorities to continue to build. Our nations in good ways and so I think that as we build ourselves to be able to use the data ourselves and demonstrate that the things are making change that we can use data to make a difference. We don't just have to use data to report on the money were receiving right 'cause I think that's the that's the cycle wherein in is to say we collect data to feedback to the funders so that we we continue to get the money for the programs we're running in our communities. What was what was a Little Nugget, the auditor general one time the office of the auditor general shared like first nations. Communities have something like a hundred and seventy-five five reports they have to allow I'm. Just. A. It's a paper processing thing you know but we're not using the data. We're not actively deciding what our priorities are with this data that we're collecting and we're just giving back and we don't even get the access where we. Built. For All the Info Canada demands of first nations glaring gaps remain about key aspects of life on reserve. That according to then Auditor General Michael Ferguson who back in twenty eighteen issued a scathing report chastising federal government for their lack of quality data. Joining me in June of that year to Parse the details, Kim. Who? According to a story on I. Politics Dossier socio-economic gaps on first nations, reserves, Indigenous Services Canada details departments three main incomprehensible failures. Ferguson said, the department fails to one obtain a comprehensive picture of the Socio Economic Challenges First Nations people face. To fell short on data management and three dropped the ball on reporting socio-economic gaps to parliament. The upshot of all this seems to be the very real possibility of a grossly distorted picture of wet living. Conditions are really liked on first nations where the feds have come up with a set of unreliable measurement mechanisms that first nations had no part in creating and seemingly want next to no part in utilizing Ken is based on that article on politics. Are there any gaps in what I just laid out about the gaps flagged Ferguson? You know this data gap I feel like I've been talking about this for twenty years in formerly 'cause every dia person I've ever met. You know they're so convinced that they know what the right thing is to do and how to fix the you know what we referred to earlier as the so-called Indian problem. Right. Everybody recognizes that there's these widespread statistics and if we just did this this and this and my question has always been well, how do you know that? How how can you make policy across the board when you know the the diversity of indigenous experience is so profound. In. Different regions even within regions, right? So I mean I think this is just highlighting a problem that indigenous people have known and experienced for a long time. It think about the housing the original housing problem. Right? They would put up housing that was great for southern Ontario. In you know the northern parts of. Other provinces and and it didn't work. You know this is this has been a perennial problem with dia from its very inception his they sort of think all indigenous people and all regions of the country are similar, and therefore we can just dump our policies on them without kind of having more fine grain data. said that aside from Dia, being a problem in and of itself, but this data problem has been persistent right from from the get go from from the beginning of this of this department and certainly even in the modern era where you see. People relying on old data I thought the the high school data was really fascinating actually that they're not even counting people who have dropped out between grade nine eleven. When it comes to calculating graduation rates they've omitted a huge chunk of people who who withdrew like they don't their data doesn't go far back enough in a student's history or trajectory to account for them like I mean. The. So they're overstating graduation rates and underestimating dropout rates isn't this like bread and butter stuff? It's not like some arcane algorithm or something like this, i? mean. Kim What does this tell us about the mostly non native bureaucracy in charge of all this the immediate benefits right to tracking and measuring indigenous people in all of their woeful inadequate progress who's getting the benefit of that right? Who's doing that bureaucratic work? That's the immediate benefit that I mean those nicely paid jobs and job security that a whole lot of non indigenous. People have to measure poke prod and gaze upon indigenous people and track their lack of success. Really. Well, I, mean my my of the whole ethos of the Indian Affairs Department is that it was meant track our descent our demise, and they just wanted to have the most accurate numbers possible as to our disappearance and you know, I, guess we're not playing along we keep. Living. Well. This is interesting right? The the what gets measured gets managed, but it's really how you measure determines what you manage. It's all baked in. It's it's just a hot mess. Here's the thing to me to. This is what crossed my mind as well. Is it just me who infers a bit of a double standard here on the part of the federal government you know as listeners may recall, first nations must produce and submit something like a hundred fifty reports annually to the feds and if the numbers and those reports are deemed to be inaccurate or inadequate, the feds can just drop the hammer and threaten the ban administration with third. Party management. That is the seizure and transfer of control over their internal affairs to to some outside firm. But. What recourse to first nations have concerning these imposed incompetent, incomplete, Indian affairs numbers. Right like none none whatsoever, and that is what they're being measured against at some level and meanwhile. As, we discussed off the top Canadians form and truck and opinions ignorant of the sloppy policy regime. and. The overwhelmingly non-indigenous architecture set it up like it's just A. And we have one last data discussion to download for you. Once, again, it's a story of what isn't be counted the disproportionate impact of covert nineteen on indigenous peoples. But as Kim reminded candidates and I this past April, it's who you count doesn't. That still matters most. Does go without saying that Presenting as a case of Covid confirmed cove it that self identification should not be a means by which to. Determine Disney. Yeah I know definitely I was thinking about that with the with the city statistics, for example, PHOENIX. There's tribes all around Phoenix and I think they probably do a much better job of understanding the interplay between urban indigene city and tribal citizenship and you would have a lot of overlap in a place like Phoenix Phoenix between tribal citizens and Urban Indians quote unquote my point is I just think if they ask for self identification alone say at a hospital in New York City or La, you're going to get a whole bunch of people self identifying as native right who are of dubious native affiliation. For, you know we've talked about that issue on on this program before people self identifying not necessarily their definitions of indigene or not always in agreement with indigenous peoples definitions, which which would undermine any value we might draw from keeping these numbers, right Just to stick with that example you cited though, I, mean you say that the region of Phoenix is surrounded by tribes there if someone. Goes into the city gets covert while they're there is in a hospital should it be made public knowledge that they're from? Reservation ex should the reservation be identified I mean is there 'cause this is where we start to get into the ethical quandary I, mean whose whose business is it to know well, I do think there needs to be good communication between different governmental agencies. So for example, I think it would be really good for the tribe at that person is from to know. Right So what is the level of communication between a city hospital and the tribal government and their health authority were their name them? Would they say it is Joe Blank or were they say a member of your tribe? Getting silly but yeah, I don't know it's a good question I would but I think it would. I would be more. I. Would assume people might be more comfortable with that. Then with that, you don't naming the person in a newspaper obviously because we've read some other articles were one of the northwest. health authority person is comparing disclosing at nineteen cases with disclosing STI cases and respecting. Anonymity of patients. So. Yeah I. think There's a difference between publishing something in the media and letting tribal health authority. No, but you know, yeah, those are good questions and. unfortunately, there are no good relations sometimes between tribal governments and states and cities. Nearby because there are always struggles over resources and governance rights, right? Yeah at Super Fascinating I mean this is always a challenge though with any kind of data like you know, how much does it benefit the systems that it gets fed into and how much does it benefit the people in the community who are giving up their their privacy in a way? Right so I think the larger questions for me around indigenous communities is sort of what's their sovereignty over The data, how much access to they have to it? How much control do they have over which dated Sharon which data not to share anything those larger questions really come into to sharp focus around something like cove where there is a lot of anxiety and there's a certain amount of panicked about you know whether not communities have the resources that they need whether or not they have access to information in the healthcare, but also to the data and so. It always see the conversations around carrying for the data are pretty important. When you also consider that indigenous people should have sovereignty over their data. It's not just sovereignty over data, its sovereignty over our health. The integrity of our bodies gets to make decisions about what gets done, what gets disclosed and I mean I'm not going to put too fine a point on it the Canadian government and their subordinate governments do not give a flying about us as victims only as vectors and. To the extent that we may be carrying a disease that infects settlers. That's when the rubber hits the road for Canada, the provinces, the territories I mean. That's going to affect I think how data's collected and held onto I mean there may be. A negative flipside tracking data by race and income right because then it becomes an efficient way to discriminate not to elevate. The interests of indigenous people I. Don't know I'm just putting that out there. Yeah, I mean. That's an important consideration. Especially when you're seeing as the as the kind of locked down and pandemic fears grow, you're seeing conversations about contact tracing and then about really trying to eradicate it just by. Creating. Barriers between those who have it or who've been exposed to it and everybody else, and so that really puts a lot of stuff on the table for communities who are already perhaps more rural already Don't have the resources that they need. You know. So I think I think that's the right sort of questions to ask about when it comes to data and when it comes to health I feel like what we're talking about. Is the concept of need to know. In, different in different flavors or different variations I mean on the one hand. We're talking about the need to know which populations could be suffering disproportionately from covid as a group. But what about the need to know where the virus is spread and possibly running the risk of stigmatizing individuals or even whole communities by naming them right and then just for good measure throwing in the complexities of colonialism. If say a first nations person gets covid while off reserve, which section gets the final say in what Info is released when and to whom And I. Mean. In some ways this is an overlap with with some of the ethical questions you wrestle with in journalism candidates because. We. Have the first nations health authority, for example. Saying, it won't release the names of even the communities were cove positive tests for covert have been discovered. Meanwhile ABC National News is sharing whenever and wherever a first nation authority that a chief says cases have been discovered the question I always ask is in whose interest right so in whose interest is it for this information to be out and is it in the community's interest in community leaders interest and sometimes we we all know like community leaders interest is not the same as community interests I mean you hope that they're absolutely in sync, but they aren't always this is the challenge when we have national media or media and urban centres making those decisions about you know these remote or rural communities that they're covering. Bets a the surreal ethical question. Right is figuring whose interests are served by these kinds of stories and and certainly I mean the the story that I think we've all read for today by Angeles Tarit. There are a lot of community leaders who are asking for data to become more public so that we know where the virus has been found in. A lot of the remote rural first nations communities in NBC. So, I think this is the real challenge you know because you don't want stigmatization to set in you don't want necessarily policies to be made without indigenous people indigenous leaders at the table at the same time you know journalists do have a broader set of accountability and how they figure out who they're accountable to and whose interests are being served by their stories like the you know these are really relevant questions will among those. Interests or the questions of interest to must be, what's the greater harm done to right right and and that's that's not something that a lot of journalists really think about right because. So much of the the news values that are are dominant in any newsroom are around you know high impact novelty timeliness you know and this greater notion of of being in the service of the public or being a surrogate for the public when. It's not always clear which public is being served but what does it say if anything? I'm not trying to ask too much of a leading question but what does it say that the first nations health authority? Is Pretty much doing the same thing as other health authorities. When it comes to? Naming where? Cases have emerged from because they don't want to name people. Yeah. I mean maybe in the silly sloppy way I always assume Oh, if it's first nations run going to be different. But then you have a chief in the N. W. T. from the denon equate first nation. Expressing frustration with the public health officer from the W. T. who just like the? As saying I'm not going to name a community. Because they're too small. They're too small. It's obvious. It would make it too obvious as to the the actual source. But then the chief went on facebook. And, said, here's who an shared information that made it pretty obvious who was. And indeed. So angrily and said like we have a right to that information. So. It's funny right I. It's almost like free prior and informed consent. How how does that square with the First Nation Health Authority not. But again as as a distinction, you made Kim is well, it's one thing to tell it to the leadership. It's another thing to tell it to the broader public through the media through the instrument of of the media. Because we know it will be stigmatized and scandalized and weaponized it just it goes back to the idea that indigenous communities are not really in control of their own destiny in many ways right? Like if You know there's a different ethical framework at play at the level of a territorial health agency. You've gotta deal with conditions on the ground. Sometimes, what's ethical in one situation is not ethical in another situation because it's different. So. Different ethical frameworks differently operative giving on given people's local materials, circumstances and given their world views I think and because indigenous communities are not in control of data dissemination of research of healthcare application, they're world views are not and their local context is not going to get to determine the response. Maybe, I made that more complicated than I had to. It's funny. I am overthinking thinking it. Wow there's a shock but you know on the one hand, I see the value of disaggregation within the urban context because there's larger population. So there's less room for individuality, the information but. To the extent that it becomes more fuel for the pathologies ation pylon of our populations. Anyway I don't. Maybe I'm like, yeah. Yeah. That information's going to do something different out in the broader settler world that it will do within the community right? Well, I think also like listening to Kim talk about. How information gets shared, his is really about how community operates right like. We. Kind of think about information data's separate maybe even ethics as separate, but it's all cultural. There's a cultural frameworks for thinking about what data is okay, and what's not there's no sort of one way of of of thinking about what the right way is to circulate information. There are so many different relations between first nations and the governments of their area whether it's territorial governments, our provincial governments because there's treaty and non tree, there's modern treaty and old treaties. I think those differentiated relationships really matter when it comes to health policy really matter when it comes to access to resources really matter when it comes to who has control of the information and whether or not that matters to communities. And thus completes our high. Tech. Retrospective. On our summer series an extended look at the bigger picture leading up to and surrounding the conflict at would Sohan. Thanks for listening to this Summer Twenty Twenty edition of Media, Digital, episode two hundred twenty one edited and produced by your host Rick Hard. Thanks to everyone who appeared on this week show, and of course, thanks to you for listening. Grit of music this episode includes headway and Harbour by angle. The Institute laboratories and careful now stocker by Roz coal. Render me single by knock term or NC T. R., M. robot is chilling by Frederick Martin Black and blue by breath before the plunge and sector vector by little glassman. Links to all of these works may be found in our show notes.

Indigenous People twitter facebook Kim Canada Google ABC News Australia New Zealand United States New Zealand government Ken Williams Ontario CRTV Maui Maori Lisa Girban Shimshon twenty twenty rick University of Alberta
Apoplexy in Alberta over Native Nomenclature

MEDIA INDIGENA : Indigenous current affairs

44:51 min | 4 months ago

Apoplexy in Alberta over Native Nomenclature

"Hello. From, Winnipeg this is media and digital episode. Twenty eight. On this week's digital roundtable, new sounds of the city, one of Canada's. Centers could be on the verge of indigenous the nomenclature of its political subdivisions drawing on languages such as blackfoot creed. Of newly proposed names for Edmonton's twelve wards were recently voted on by city council with a two-thirds majority favouring the switch but there's still a ways to go before it's official to mention those critics could like these new names nullify. In a moment the word on the street from a pair of Edmund. Just happened to be on the round table. But first, we want to name our appreciation for those who make our podcast. Awesome. Our patrons on Patriots. Not includes new patrons like Braley Chauncey and villain. Now, play June five dollars each every month as well as Peter and Adrian now coming in at ten dollars every month. Thanks to all of you who lend your support to US each and every month it's because of you that everyone gets to enjoy the program. And join me back at a round table. Once again, our misquakees was sky that is in Edmonton as we say. To Extraordinary Edmund Tonens and I'm not sure what ward he's in but I know his name Ken Williams system professor with, the University of Alberta Department of Drama Can Don say boy Oh, the morning Talarico. Manado egg we. She was GonNa she too is in Alberta capital city. It's Kim tall bear associate professor in the U. OF AS Faculty of Native Studies Kim Hi Rick. I don't know what you guys are talking about. Real basic cre-. Six three basic I i. Hope I started here saying because my pronunciation was way off. I'm an embarrassment to the faculty need to take some. So this was a topic tailor made for the three of us because I lived in that city for almost two years while at CBC and still have a very soft squishy spot for that place so to speak. That's GONNA sound weird. But anyway. So when this came up it, it had to be done can given you have the longer history with the city. And thus have your finger on its pulse. Possibly other spots I thought we should start with you. How did this proposal even come about? Okay. Well, the city of Edmonton regularly like examines its population density in its neighborhoods end look at the boundaries for the wards. Now, for those who don't know Emerton right now currently has a city council of thirteen people one mayor and twelve councillors and there's one counselor Ward. So this is a regular thing that happens right the city's constantly looking to make sure that that award is equal sized to. Has the same at geographic cohesiveness to represent the city fairly so that no one ward has say has fewer people in it, but it's still gets one vote, etc. The redrawing the boundaries, the redrawing the boundaries and did in order to maintain democratic fairness. Okay. This is a regular thing that happens all the time. What was a different? This time was the included a naming committee of all indigenous women to give the city with the new names for the war. So instead of being known by their numbers, they'd be known by names that would reflect the indigenous history of the city. So that's different and that's what's really seem to be causing a lot of the concerns happening right now about the new names for some reason that the shifting of the wards is not is not the issue or the the new boundaries is not are not the issue. The fact that now they have these new names and the old names, the number one through twelve. Okay. It would reflect your I'm in ward six currently the on that was the name of it and that's it, and of course, every Emmett Tony knows exactly which ward there from right? Oh? Yeah. Yes. was because we all pay so much attention to city politics. But Jesus says being super guilty. Of. Now, this this committee, which is called the committee of Indigenous Matriarchs and they're composed of seventeen women from first nations representing treaty six, seven and eight, as well as May t- an inuit representatives. So let me ask you have you heard of any US city proposing a similar thing never mind actually going through the with ward? No I mean you know we Did we did the show on day, mccaw sky the changing of the Lake County right and the lake and the names around the lake in Minneapolis and near downtown Minneapolis and that was such a huge Brouhaha because the white people were all freaked out there. We're going to have to pronounce to duck two words which are a lot easier than these crean black ones. So. Is it Brouhaha Dakota word for angry subtler skip? It's probably it's probably racist. You have to like reexamine all of your own racist or. I don't know. Anyway. So that's the only. Yeah I. Don't I haven't heard of them doing something like this anywhere in the US, but that's a good question. So before we go any further I, think it's important for people to know what these names sound like as Ken mentioned. There are twelve wards. So why don't we go through each one Maybe what I'll do is all I'll be the guy in charge of making sure people here the names, and then we'll alternate between cannon Kim terms of the the tiny little one liner explanation. Alright. So this is this is ward one LAKOTA. CODA east. Kota Go. Okay Kim what's that about? Well. You know I have issues with this being a Dakata and they say stuff strange up here. So like you don't knock like the when they pronounce their tea's like a d we don't do that. So but and then the other thing they say, the indigenous language of origin Assu we don't use that word anymore either the meaning the people, the Alexis knock, knock Kota I would say but they say not quotas Sioux nation is the most northwestern representative of the Sui and language family. So as dot co two, this is a little uncomfortable to me but. I but I don't count as much because I'm not from these parts. I'll adjust I'll just. All right. Let's Let's move to ward too. Because KENNESAW. So in a fluent with nuked, the should be there should be a breeze. Okay. Here we go. Unknown. Are. Akin, what's the deal here? Yeah. This is in reference to the hospitals where of were flown into Edmonson. NASA Charles Cancel Charles Cancel Hospital was one of the very famous what they used to call the Indian hospitals and Yeah. There had a lot of people from there were a lot of people from the north were brought into and unfortunately, and very sadly many were abandoned here. So that's that's the references for and Emerson has one of the largest southern based any weed populations in Canada along with Montreal and Winnipeg is up there as well. And of course, the football team which I think this is going to be the new name for my right yarded here I really the Emerton Anina. No. No No. Not at all. Okay. So that's word to let's go to ward three. This is another word ready for it Kim Yep. The the we know walk best we know Ach that's the we newark. That's not too difficult. Thus, the We know ACC- yeah, I think I can manage that and you think this could be your ward right word three, the new, the new worth three I think that's what Ken said. So I'm I'm currently in Chrome Dale. So I hope I'm in Testa we know arc is that I say that and the meaning of this word would make you happy was on. because it's the in between people honors those who move between gender roles, the LGBTQ community. So I like that I mostly hang out with queerest find straight people kind of tragic sometimes. It was on team. TESTA. Work. I am. So. Either you're going to be in that neighborhood or you're gonNA move to that neighborhood. I already am because I like Ri- live. Okay. Let's go to ward four, which has a super complicated multi celebic name one, Sec Ken Are you ready? I'm ready? Danny. Then they. Denny. Okay. DENNA. What's the story there can well it? We're we're here for you now in still live here have been here for thousands of years so I think that's fairly appropriate that they. It does kind of like sort of give though one name to a plurality of people. So I think you know 'cause we tree get there a few other words here but yet just update. It's all of you. There you go. For the whole group. But I like that I like the meaning there. So it says on the city website people of land and water refers to the various tribes that settled along the nurses sketchy when including Edmund Tony who have settled in live here. Now Wolf I wonder if people would like that or not. That's interesting. I I can't imagine referring to an ambitious person you're settling. Oh. That's true. Well, also in and calling other people DNA. Yeah lots of politics in these in these little summaries that was word for is word. Five. Oh. Damon. Oh Day men. Oh, Damon. Okay Kim Damon. That's initial Bay Moen I believe and what? What? That's ward five what story there. Well, I only can read off the city descriptions but it's Strawberry or heart barry the heart through which the North's catch when river runs historical hub for many nations to meet and trade. Maybe that's where I am 'cause I'm right across the street from the river. That's beautiful. Heart Barry I like that. Okay the next one we don't really have to play because can I think everyone knows what ward six is now to say it, but perhaps, you can fill it out a bit building off with the city sense of the Word GonNa Call as May t- and the way the city describes given the history of the area in the use of the river lot system in this ward, the Mateen name was chosen May trace their descendancy to both indigenous. North American. European. Settlers ECORSE that's again the the. The race lies ation of what may t means has always been an issue with the make people and I. Think you know 'cause it's a I, know there there's obvious to meet settlements Longhair, but I was thinking, why is this word? Six is what's the word I am in? The university should have been called that because that's where they garneau the the name of the block. Arnott's they never very famous. May T person in the land of the university either got by abbreviation or something appropriate I got? So it's like let's go to ward seven team batting again here. The New New York Okay Kim Are you ready yet. SEPIA WE KNOW ACC-. C. B. We know. CPI Newark Okay. See peewee NORC what's this about? It says it's Enoch cree I don't know it is that they have their own form of creating knock we'll just regional. Like any other language but yeah. But this sounds like what I hear around. The Faculty of Native Studies, I'm so I don't know what they're saying, but I'm getting an ear for how it sounds right? So it says it references the people of the not coronation being river cree in the past they were known as River Cree by other tribes. Okay. So hence, CPI that's river. As in Mississippi, right? Yeah. So Oh yeah right. That's true. Today I learned. Anything to add there can about the Iraq No. I i. think it's a perfect though like it would be ridiculous not to have that because they are physically the closest first nation to Edmonton okay. All Right This is Again. More crea- go. I. Have No complaints about this especially because I am six okay. Here we go. Ken get ready. Bought by still. By by Stale. Bypass they're. All Right Papa still what's that all about? Okay will there's there's something funny here. There's the language origin puppets chase POPs chases the band the was the leader of puppets cheats. Right. So it's like the policies are cre- their language would be you know almost identical to the inaugural. So I don't know why indigenous language origin is Papa, she's that's Kinda. Funny and translation correct large Woodpecker I believe that it is. Yeah. What can you tell us about policies while Papa States is the land that if people know Emerton if you know south. University drive and then that cuts diagonally and then dinners big chunk going straight south under that used to be all posthaste land when they signed treaty six that was the land that they were that was the land they chose for their reserve and due to the usual candidates. Sneaky dirty tricks that the Indian affairs were known for back then they got they've managed to. Get. A get a surrender of the entire reserve when most of the members were away on a hunting trip and so they papa sheets people suddenly found themselves that land basin, most of them were. Absorbed into surrounding for stations, there's a large number of. descendancy in you knock. Okay. Dumb question. But we'll. We'll that ward eight be inclusive of land. Traditional ancestral your actually it will actually that makes a lot of sense that's GonNa be university area down to mckernan in those areas there. Yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah I'm surprised city lawyers didn't say don't do that. You only encourage them. Okay. Let's go toward nine you ready yet again for some more crea- Yep. So, win. BE HESSE WHEN BE ESA Win. What should we know about this? This is a really cool one at says, pays respect to the thunderbird this. Yeah. This word from an view is shaped like P. has say, how do I say Pierre Su ps soup Thunderbird and contains a ceremonial sites. That's pretty cool. I like that too. Okay. Oh. Ken gets the easy one. Alright fitness. Good luck. EP. EP, Caen Ability. beat. Caen Bill. Be Sound area. BEACON EP Otzi. Job Guys. You're just put putting harder. K. In the second the Yes e. p. need. Beacon. Epcot E. P.. E. Piazzi there is. So tell us what that's all about their meaning they have on the site traditional edge, blackfoot nation performed buffalo rounds. Oh there's no. The Bison would migrate up to three hundred north of the nurses catching river to the safety of the Artesian Wells together for the winter and for those who don't know what a buffalo round is I don't know what is the buffalo what's about two tons? I'd assume it's a migration following the buffalo, but I don't know. Google that for you. Maybe, they meant buffalo pound is what they're actually trying to say and said Buffalo Round. Anna. Buffalo. Pound is well founded in creed terms anyway that was is like a chorale dues you chase the you would sort of lured the buffalo into this chorale area close it in your tire them out, and then you kill him. Okay. Was a method of hunting Buffalo Henson impound maker. Yes. We're filmmakers gets his name Hoodoo today I learned again. Okay. ooh Look at this small Hawk for Kim. You. Ready. And then when we just heard his word ten, this is ward eleven. Got A. he'll. Guy. He. Got He. Oh. I'm sort of hearing gotta he'll yet and what is the city claimed that that means a tall beautiful forest in the Mohawk language. Is it Michelle is that I urge communication of Michelle. CADA, he'll was the chief of the Michelle Ban that was in franchised in nineteen fifty where the town of Cala who is now located. Will there we go how did he get a Mohawk name? Doesn't know how does Mohawk people? What's Yup? How did the Mohawks get out here that came out here they came out here just got in the number two bus and said. They were brought out here the. Is. There's a long story behind it, but they were there Mohawk people here they. They were granted reserve. I've been wondering about this because I've heard some what Yup. Who which is very common name in in Alberta is not Like a French butchering than an English butchering of the French butchering of a of a word but it was actually no, that's a Mohawk word. It's kind of a badly pronounce Mohawk word. got. Hoes, so I can say probably. That's the original word at worded of. It's the way people heard that was CALICO. Okay, just goes to show you how things get lost in the translation speaking of let's do ward number two. All, right. Here we go. This is also blackfoot. Are you ready Kim? SPO- meet that be. Meet that be. Spur meet that be. Curse for Mitt Up. All. Alright. What does that mean? SPAMMY toppy means star person and was and was given an honor of the Iron Creek meteorite or the men to stone. The stone was shared by all tribes and was a place. The blackfoot would travel to and perform ceremony before the Rock was taken in the eighteen hundreds by missionaries. It today is located at the Royal Alberta Museum and not without controversy. Am I right Ken. Oh. Course. Look at many other things there is like the the necessity in in Saskatchewan which was blown up. To make way for Damn you know, which was a gigantic rocket was sacred to all people in that area as well. So this is yeah this is kind of typical where the missionaries or explorers were known for seizing meteorites that that indigenous people were using. There's another one another caisson of the in I think when in Quebec had a had a meteorite taken from them as well. Wow. Okay. So boyle boy so I I think you know just going through these discussions of over these twelve names it's clear. They do have a connection. To the geography. or at least a huge step in direction an attempt to do so. Is that fair? I would say so yeah. Yeah it's I mean it's a lot of it's very thoughtful and it's a lot of work. You know this is a relatively speaking small attempt to. Unsettle said a liberal vision is history l. over the land and it's still a lot of work. Right? I'm sure tremendous amount of work went into this even though it seems like justice, start. Yeah Yeah, which I mean the mayor to be fair seemed to sort of acknowledge there's a quote of his saying we have a small opportunity to write some of the wrongs of residential schools which you know try to destroy indigenous languages by embracing the languages of this land without caveat, with asterisks without footnotes, and as he goes on to add behind each one of them is a powerful story. which which prompts a kind of reflection we're doing now. This of a few times actually feel encouraged something a city government does and they did it in the way you're supposed to do it you you name the objective, but then you get out of the way and let the indigenous people do the naming and do the research and explain why and I think you know I find this quite encouraging and to be honest I feel like I actually learned something today everyone is freaking out about statues going down of of early settlers and whatnot you would think that'd be like you know getting behind this for for the very reason that built into it is this generative discussion. You told you would hope but I know of at least four people who think otherwise. Maybe, I'm putting words in their mouth. No Pun intended. That's maybe they're critique stopped shoving these words down my throat I'm talking about, of course, the four councillors who voted against going forward with these names. This is Mole bang-up Mike Nichols Tony Katerina but the last one I actually need some help with its John. I'm going to spell it D. said is a D. Y. K. Kim say that from me you'd have to spell it slower de said or or. D. C. I A. D. Y. K. I have no idea the Dick what did I have? No idea like that's I'm thinking that Ukrainian could be something else I think that'd be a great name for award I. Know that sounds like a foreign word to me. It's a foreign to me. So John Go back to where you come from. Well when ward thirteen created will name it after yet side CDC. Jerk. Man We reverse racism maybe here guys maybe I. Don't know I've tried to pronounce the name. Lizards. Felt in English to me those John. Deere Dick Disea- Dick I duNno. Anyway John D is not happy with it. So he voted against the motion to to carry this forward. But what was his reason we wanted to include numbers next to the indigenous names. Inventories are confused. But which word is there as I can tell you right away a Lotta Tony's are confused but which are there. A So I guess we've already slid into the negativities much as we tried to avoid it. I think, Mr Nickel perhaps marshaled most of the arguments against the renaming. And as you'll hear, he's not necessarily quibbling just with the names but the whole renaming per say. Why don't we take a moment now to take a listen to a local podcast local to Edmonton that is entitled Gross Misconduct by Emin Comedian, and former radio talk show hosts Andrew Gross. This is from an episode entitled. That's how we do it in his Suan So we did mention off the top that we have a guest word eleven counselor Mike Nickel. We're GONNA talk about new ward names but when the proposed new word boundaries were first discussed direction was to rename them by. Geographic area but that all changed after a push from a local indigenous community group to honor the history and culture of the land where Edmonton is now formed, the committee made up of seventeen women representing first nations and yet maty was given a budget of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars to choose indigenous names for Edmonton's newly amended wards was I. The only one detected a slate guffaw there was like a father Ga p one, hundred and fifty thousand, Oh yeah, that's what you mean. Yes. And I mean they're all experts in their field that is to say their linguistic experts. Yeah. I, don't know. Yeah. We're supposed to it for free indigenous people are supposed to work for free now. Let's the location, their bench. That wasn't just you know the budget was also to look into research. To be examined, that's That's not that much money in the end for process. Yeah. It's a size of three. F.. One fifties. which is all they drive in Edmonton. Actually I would say that's two F. One fifties. Only, to see 'em so outta touch I, drive a Toyota fully loaded f one fifty yet bouzis. Okay. But you know the thing I was surprised was just how well he pronounced all the names. The twelve new proposed names are NOCCO TA e Sky. Network Nick. Tostao win e walk DNA. Oh Damon. Matey CPA win e walk paw paw stay O P Hayes. So win ep coca knee is side by yeah. Gari he oh and Spoul. ME. TA P. Was a mere two that sound like someone playing a tape backwards. Super Gringo. Wolves what Walk. You know if he if he tried like you know we that's but he wasn't trying. It was quite literally just he was right out of a man called horse is that was Knows, that movie while he is a comedian. Really. I just don't have comedic effect is appropriate in that space but. I don't think he was trying to be funny I think he was trying to be purposely stupid. I look at me I'm a dumb white man be have trouble speaking your language. Okay. Well, perhaps, mission accomplished well, look these easy did ease looking at the site and he's he's using the pronunciation as spelled out. He's not even bothering to listen to how they're sounding like he could have done what you did. He could've played them. Yeah. But I guess he's dead technologically comedic as well. or he could you know I mean this subsection of his episode, it has a special invited guests on. He could have just as easily I dunno brought on a speaker to. Let's continue on. Joining me now is Ward Gar, e He oh counselor. McNicoll Mike Thank you so much for doing this. No problem. Is this the appropriate time for the city to be spending one hundred, fifty thousand dollars on renaming wards well. Let's start with this premise I've seen them spend money on worse and on. I supported spend the money because I was curious as to the outcome, and I'm curious because we were talking the indigenous while we are talking about some very sensitive issues around. So I I, you have to sit back and try to be objective and say, okay, what can they come up with? The indigenous file since we're talking about the indigenous by. Was a little known sequel to the X. Files but tone. Yeah. Exactly. Indigenous. File. Let's sit back and see what they could come up with came up with names that were in their language by God. We can't pronounce it yourself. I mean would I be going too far or would I be misguided and saying like the dog whistling is starting because very sensitive. We have to be objective in it's like, who's we? Who who are the objective? We White Man. I would like a definition of the word objective throw that around what is even mean. We have to sit back and be objective. So I have a picture of a white guy in an easy chair sitting back in passing judgment is that our definition of objectivity now it doesn't Canada okay. Thank you for clarifying Ken. Okay. Here we go and in the end after talking constituents in counseling on myself in were twelve and I'm in Warren Eleven. A lot of people know millwood's happens to be very, very diverse, ethnically diverse. So millwood's Ken quickly tell folks who aren't from Edmonton where Millwood's in because I have some interesting information about it. MILLWOOD's is in southeastern Edmonton. It was a fairly big developments used to be the outskirts of the city when I first moved here in the late Seventies. When I moved here in Twenty fifteen when I was looking for a house to anti look down there and it looks like the Brady. Bunch neighborhoods in that TV show from the Seventies. That's what it looks like to me but it is very diverse racially diverse over there. Now, here's the thing. There are portions of Millwood's which contain neighborhoods with. Names. It's interesting right. So you have communities which comprise neighborhoods. So the mill hurts community comprises two neighborhoods in the south portion of millwood's according to a wikipedia search. I. Did which I'm sure anybody could do yoga. Which means good water in Cree S- ago, which means wooded area Lakewood. Part of Millwood's the West portion thereof includes the following three neighborhoods, Camille. The. Beautiful. Munich ideal spot. Also incre- to pass gun that name to pass gun means a reserve. Language and recalls, and again, this is from the city's own website. The millwood's area was a cree Indian reserve between eighteen, seventy, six and eighteen ninety one to be later developed in the seventies and eighties. So here we have the counselor talking about you know that a lot of people know millwood's happens to be very, very diverse. Apparently, they don't know that it used to be a reserve your net. You'll yeah because the other thing too the neighborhood that we've moved into. Development area was called CASCA Tayo and what they had done was they had with the help of Dr Anthony Anderson. appropriate. CREE names for the area but it was named after like people. So we had blue quail urban skin. Hey, when sky rattler steinhauer sweetgrass are all named after people So it's you know this is already existed. This is actually one of the funny things like this already happened why were you like freaking out all of a sudden what your sense of why summer freaking I just you know typical kind of a white guy angst. Okay A lot of that going around these days. What's what's it's just not bill woods. This entire city is ethnically diverse you know. It is it was implicitly saying Oh. This is where all the Brown people go. When they move into the it's like. Well you'll hear he's dropping bread crumb. You'll hear why he's doing this. He's setting something up here. So let's let's go back. And we both loaded not to support to rename the wards or variety of reasons. But we heard pretty loud and clear from America's issuance that. They really didn't want to see this issue of identity politics getting raised when it came to the boundary issue. So I'm I really respect in understand what people are trying to achieve here but there is a larger macro kind of overlay on what's going on Kim Kim yet there's a larger macro kind of overlay on what's going on here so. We don't WANNA see identity politics getting race I think like the word objectivity they don't know what identity means either. Just. Throwing that what what identity politics are involved in this he already said. That, we're dealing with geographic place names, Meta honorable history, and the land where Edmonton is now formed. This is very much about. Land and geography, and also the relationships of the people who live here who happen to be indigenous only for quite a long time to this place. Right. So this whole naming thing seems to be about reinforcing the relationships between humans and place. So I don't know why he's talking about it the he's just throwing the word identity out like it's the ten zillion dollars, Zinger word that undermines everything and he doesn't even know what it means Gotcha. I think don't you think I don't see identity politics here the totally agree with you on that. You just had it better than I would you can. Can you decipher what a larger macro kind of overlay I think he made macaroni overlaid these saying. It's all about all the cheese he's been eating lately and it's been bugging him A. It's it's to me. That's just you know again Buzzword buzzword jargon Buzzword Buzzword I really have no idea what I'm saying I just don't like the fact that indigenous anything is being considered is being is being promoted fronton center like the whole thing is not renaming the city. The city isn't getting renamed its the wards for the elections and the only time people are actually really be seeing these things is when they get their voter card and it will tell you where to go vote. It'll tell you what words you're in and where to go vote and. I have this vision they out of these lost white people Good. The idol where this is, Oh my God I'm voting in the wrong country. You know this is what is this what they think they're voters like it doesn't alter the map in any way the street signs aren't getting torn down. Their children aren't being aren't being subdued and kidnapped to go to schools to learn how to save his win is such a little tiny thing that they're makeup big freaking Bela about. Alright well, we should find out if there's been pushback. has there been pushback yes. Yes. There has been pushed but getting texts and emails and so on but that's for the people who are paying attention. Part of the problem is, is that given the short time constraint? We kinda ran this through without what we would call what a lot of us would opera community engagement from at the city level. So here we go. You know we're going to be putting in these names in a what just take out the indigenous names say we're we're just gonNA rename with something else. And we start from that principle and once we started saying it's going to be you know something else in along as you if you don't properly engage the public on it, you're going to get pushback. You know the the two central new wards both start with the letter P and council resigned properly pointed out today you don't think it's going to be confusion on that one and literally. I think there might be right. Holy. These guys stupid. We can't have to be works you get up to pee words. With this is always God I. GotTa Say Puppets Stay Oh EPA. Size you might have a point. I always get over Brunswick and new Scotia confused all the time can't they get these provinces there's twenty six letters. There's only thirteen provinces territories come on what are the best responses to this you wrote a tweet that just fit this that just really late capsulated the how stupid the pushback like firstly, self a couple of questions where do cars cost less? What river was our city built upon? What is my capacity to learn many languages have many syllables now that first part. Word cars cost less than is well-known added that is played in in Edmonton for generations and the AD is cars cost less in with Tasca win, right. So this place we have been saying cree names overdose scheduling you can save puppets Tayo. NOCA- WE HAVE ULCERS DIGITS NIEVES ALREADY TECH com on. The problems with this I'm I'm. Not. GonNa learn another Ukrainian name ever again. So let's take a step back. I just I would argue just keep it to the numbers. So we can be consistent everybody understands numbers, and at least I understand numbers and and that's where I fell down on it in I just said no, this is too short of a timeframe to do it right if we're GONNA do it right and they really didn't answer the question. For example, we have people who lia in my in my ward and we have Muslims in my warden and Start. Going down this road. Now you're right and where does it stop? I'm just not a big fan of fixing things that aren't broken. What Road Are we going down? Where does this Stop Kim Oh? Well, implication is you're supposed to leave everything like white guys want to don't WanNA learn some new words that's the implication. I mean so he just tells on himself, right? So I'm not a big fan of fixing things that aren't broken. It's the host, the host too. Yeah. White supremacy settlers, supremacy settler norms for language work for you. I get it's not broken for you. It might happen to be broken for some other people. After, the part you played, then he starts talking about the average Joe and Jane and Edmonton, and he says talking about the average Joe and Jane Aren't really carrying about things like this they're cutting their grass making supper taking care of their kids. So what he's saying is against either telling on themselves the the average Edmund Tony in who were all supposed to listen to and look for what they think. You know the real man or woman on the street are white probably cause their names are Joe and Jane Heterosexual they live in a nuclear family like this is basically we're supposed to look to white normativity as the average Edman. Tony were all supposed to look to? It's just a reinforcement of white supremacy. I know he doesn't realize he's doing that, but but that's what he's doing. So why are we listening to these the indigenous file? This is a minority file we need to be listening to the Real Edmund. Tony's married white people with grass. That's what should be on the Edmonton City Hall flag. I. Think Married White People with grass cutting their grass. Now. Here's the thing though guys it's not just settlers who seem to be upset about it were still with the same city councilor he tweeted out recently that is Mike. Nickel tweets he said, you know we've had almost ten years to move other indigenous concerns forward in our city, but we somehow settled for virtue signaling. I am now hearing from many indigenous voices who are not okay with these changes and cultural appropriation. Goodness and then he goes on to say we just change the name of our Edmonton football team for almost the exact same reasons. So why are mayor and friends heading down this road again and the the so-called indigenous voices he's quoted he created a graphic these are the things they're saying total waste of money. I am a first nations person totally disagree with. You. The colonial people do not have any right to use these native names that is for first nations. Only another person said I'm cree and can't pronounce some of the word names. So I know the mayor couldn't it's another fine mess and finally someone said as a first nations man I find this kind of virtue signaling racial pandering nauseating appropriating my culture isn't your electoral boundaries. That's kind of a false equivalency though because people were objecting to that word for the Edmonton football team because it, it's no it's considered a slur right? None of these words are considered slurs Niro. So that's just doesn't make any sense, but it also reminds me of both the broader mascot conversation and like the the pretend conversation like we don't really know who these people are. That are saying that number one, number two also they could be really indigenous people, but it's that's kind of attention policing like we can't spend time on this issue because we have other issues when all these issues are connected and it was a council seventeen indigenous people came of these names. How is it appropriate? Well and also they're women. So I was noticing that to the first nations man all like okay. But you know I think that's interesting. That was a group of women that took this on. Well, my one of my favorite replies and I mean, you know in kind of a hate reading sense was. Somebody named Archie I'll read it verbatim sooner or later the indigenous will be want the land and start charging non-indigenous rent give them an inch they'll want a mile it's in their nature sink the white man owns them everything. So, I think they meant to say sooner or later For. Him. He wrote it don't don't spell it out. Ramdan. Of. I know when I read when I read that I was thinking people it's always opposite day for them. They're always accusing you of doing what they do. Right project every every every accusation is an admission. Man. So one thing for sure I think the counselors who are against this they should be happy they don't live in our tail. Roy. Otherwise known as New Zealand where the New Zealand Geographic Board has made as, of Twenty Nineteen Eight, hundred, twenty, four Maori places official. They're all in common use. Yeah. They open up, they open up all kinds of. You always always have poppy our white people down there speaking the language it's kind of interesting. You know they'll open up all these big things and government things and they're speaking the language. It's one of those things where the pushback is indirectly good in some ways, it almost makes the case for doing even more. It's a good educational moment I mean I. Like going through and learning, you know what a great class exercise to go through and played a pronunciations and then think about what they mean and you know you could have students thinking younger kids right like, Oh, I live here I live there and talking about those neighborhoods and what makes them interesting what it's a great readymade classroom exercise Oh. Yeah I. Just for Orange Orange. Shirt day I got a chance to speak to a bunch of young people who were between grades four and six and We're no longer in the age of denial of residential schools. We have children who are asking very precise questions about it. So I think this kind of like the you know the the the blockhead white group. Kinda always say that this is too much for as the handle right now the children are easily adaptable nobody picking up on this. In fact I think they'll be quite as just said intrigued and interested in why why waste word's spelt differently what's what's that about and they'll look into it? Yeah I'm glad you referenced residential school because you know the the subtext all of this is how dare you force these non English words down my throat and like yeah, that would suck to be forced to speak another language. Is English has really clear pronunciation rules either at spill up tough S- pillow does Philip Plow is still cost. That's enough or is that he knows. He knew. All right well, Ken Kim I want to thank you for this. Very special. Edmonson addition. Media and digital. Something thank you so much. I can and ask them to now. I. Thank you. Thank you. It was funny. That's from media and Digital Episode Two hundred, Twenty, eight record the afternoon of October first two, thousand and twenty. Thanks again to Ken Williams Assistant Professor With the University of Alberta Department of drama, as well as to Kim tall bear associate professor in the Faculty of Native Studies at the University of Alberta, and Canada Research Chair in indigenous, peoples, techno signs and environment. This episode was edited by Stephanie would as well as by meet your host and producer Rick Hearth. Thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again soon. Steam is nesting. Bureaucratic. Law.

Edmonton Ken Kim Edmonton Canada Millwood US Kim Damon Ward Gar Edmund Tony committee of Indigenous Matria Winnipeg Alberta millwood University of Alberta Departme Y. K. Kim newark official associate professor Jesus
55: The Polaroid Revolutionary Workers Movement

Household Name

41:17 min | 7 months ago

55: The Polaroid Revolutionary Workers Movement

"This episode of brought to you by is brought to you by Cambria hotels. The upscale brand greets modern travelers with approachable indulgences to help them be at their best when traveling. This is fantastic. Add Pink. Everything about it kills me. It's for this affordable poor camera sold in the nineteen sixties. In Black and white, and you see these young good looking white kids dancing on the beach jumping in the ocean and especially flirting. And that Oh so subtle name. The swinger is very simple. Instant camera has a strap you hook around your wrist. When you want to take a picture, you swing it up Click Presto a few minutes. Later there you have a black and white snapshot. Polaroid. had a real knack for creating great ads for its instant cameras at technology company created completely owned like this one from the nineteen seventies. Then you can see a picture developing before your eyes. Blue minutes into a protocol as real as life itself. To grab hold of. Yes my friends that is the master Thespian Star Stage and screen Lawrence Oblivion. Simplest selling the heck out of Polaroid's latest revolutionary and really cool looking new instant camera the SX seventy that t g of instant photos the white border on the bottom, the image slowly emerging before your eyes this is it the start of it all So then what about this other ad from Polaroid in nineteen seventy that ran in newspapers it wasn't to sell instant camera. Instead the headline read what is Polaroid doing in South Africa From business insider this is brought to you by. Brands, you know stories you don't I'm Charlie Hermit. Donald. Polaroid is instant photography during its heyday millions of people to billions of instant photos around the world. It was the apple technology, the original instagram without the filters, but up to the nineteen seventies polaroid was also doing business in South Africa. When two employees discovered this, they called for a boycott until the company withdrew, it was one of the first anti-apartheid protests against a major corporation in the United States and the beginnings of the divestment movement that followed as polar tried to figure out the right thing to do its founders summed up the world is watching US right now. Stay with us. Ken. Williams and caroline hunter or the polaroid workers who led the protests against their employer they met through a company program began dating, and then in the late seventies got married Williams has since passed away and hunter. Now seventy three years old spitzer time between Massachusetts and Louisiana. I am happily retired and people asked me what I do. I generally say my job is to do nothing well. Are you doing doing nothing? Up Try to be really good at, they're trying to be an expert hunter was born and raised in New Orleans I. AM number four, six children, four girls, and then two boys grew up in a black Catholic environment poor working class neighborhood. My father graduated high school. My Mother did not she grew up in the nineteen fifties and sixties in the city's seventh ward which she put it was a segregated bubble. kind of black everything we needed within our community segregated community that you went to the bike after the black dentist, the cleaners, the pharmacy black-owned pharmacy that what we call the drugstores back then but hunter attended high school across town and had to get there by bus or we had to sit behind the sign behind colored sign, and if a white person got on your seat, you had to get up in the tenth grade. She had a teacher who inspired her to see the world differently, and if you're lucky, you've had someone like that in your life. And you know what that can mean for hunter. It was Mr Valda a young white teacher who taught current events encouraged us to get involved in the civil rights movement because it was not what we did it was around us. So as a teenager, she looked for ways to stand up for her rights in her hometown myself and my friends would go to the dairy Queen Order at the colored window and when our food come, we say we want to sit inside and we refused we walk away in protests that was the most that we ever did. It was also Mr Volva who introduced hunter to the novel cry the Beloved Country By the South African author Alan. Paton. It's a story about a Zulu pastor who goes to Johannesburg to search for a son who's been accused of murdering a white man published in nineteen forty eight. It was one of the first novels by a white author that detailed the inhumanity of apartheid, Hunter said the story removed her and made her more aware of the suffering of black people in South Africa she still remembers her favorite quote from the book. There's a man lying in the grass. There's a storm gathering over his head people passing by not knowing what's happening to him. Why did that resigned with you so much that passage I. Think the book resonated with my life as under segregation it move me. To the point marked. And then life went. After high school hundred went to college and graduated with a degree in chemistry. She then accepted a job at polaroid and moved to Cambridge for the company was. You start working a polaroid what was your job research chemist in the color lamp? Ironic from here on out. Compared. To other companies in the nineteen sixties, Holroyd considered progressive. There were several women in leadership roles in hunter decided to work there because in part the workforce was integrated though in truth, many of the black employees worked in entry level and low paying jobs. That's how Ken William started out as a janitor. But Williams was also an excellent photographer who really understood how to get the best out of polaroid film over time. He worked his way up into became a photographer at the company one day in the fall of nineteen seventy hunter met Williams in the photographer studio at Polaroid to go to lunch and I went into the shop. It were any other people around and at the memory is coming from one room to the other and looking back at a bulletin board and seeing the picture of the only other black guy in the shop. On an ID bench and we looked at it and it said Department of the Mind Jillian the South Africa we froze. What did you think when you saw that? Well, I froze we froze and he said I didn't know pull the right was in South Africa and I said I didn't know either. But I'm not a bad place for black people? And all of cry the beloved country, all of this, the Volva all of that stuff coming back to me. They left the building when to lunch and couldn't stop talking about what they had just seen. What did you do that evening? We started looking up south. African, the World Book Encyclopedia. And then the next day I. went to library and checked out tons of books on south. Africa. And each evening for a long time. After we got home from work, we researched in research research the research. Apartheid, the word comes from. And means partners or separateness starting in nineteen, forty eight, the white minority government in South Africa has two series of laws to separate the races and create a divided society white people on top and black people who made up nearly seventy percent of the population on the bottom as hunter and Williams did their research. They learned that a polaroid instant photography system called Idee to was being sold to companies in south. Africa. Now, the ID to made instant photos for identification cards and they concluded it was being used by the government as part of a program to enforce apartheid the discovery of that ID for the. Unveiling for us of pull ritual in South Africa was really really significant more specifically the to system could quickly create the photos necessary for a twenty page document as a passbook that black South Africans despised under South African. Law Blacks had to carry a document called their pass book similar size out passport. However, this passbook has everything about you. You must have it on your physical person at all time. So if I. Police came onto me right now my passport was in the coat rack on the door, but not on my person I could be arrested it has to be updated a half. Have it signed? The permission for me to move to exist and is considered the handcuffs of black people. was without question, a symbol of all of the ills of partied because it did separate people by race and it also controlled your movement. This is Eric Morgan, a history professor at the University of Wisconsin, in Green Bay he studied and written about South, Africa Polaroid apartheid, and the role of the passbooks it controlled who you are allowed to associate with it controlled your entire existence if you didn't have your passbook with you or if the stamps or the permissions or incorrect, you could be detained for very long time. In nineteen sixty several thousand black South Africans demonstrated against the passbook in the township of Sharpeville south of Johannesburg police responded by opening fire on the protesters killing nearly seventy people and wounding nearly two hundred more including dozens of women and children. The Sharpeville massacre as it's called shocked the international community it showed how violence was integral to enforcing apartheid. South. African government however responded by implementing even more. Measures and by the early nineteen seventies, apartheid had reached the peak of its power first and foremost the major resistance movements are all either imprisoned or exile south. Africa's economy is also incredibly powerful. So the investments of the Western World United States Great Britain Cetera are very strong, and if you're doing business in the country you had to comply with the. Laws apartheid and all. So that was the situation for Polaroid in south. Africa, when hundred Williams stumbled across that ID card after thinking about it and talking about it they decided when evening to post leaflets around the polaroid offices on bulletin boards and on restroom stall doors throughout the building was done on typewriter and at the top Ken had written in an. Polaroid imprisons by people in sixty seconds and at the bottom assist sees the time and it's got a lot of great rhetoric. Yeah folks bull run were not laughing. So on Monday when we show up for work. The polaroid police and the Cambridge police are looking for us. They news you what was I assigned? Come on this is the no protest. There's some discrepancies in the timeline of what happened when but what matters is that after some back and forth between hunter and Williams and executives polaroid the company put a statement that said Polaroid has not sold its idea equipment to the government of South Africa for use in the apartheid program hunter and Williams though weren't buying it. So along with Third Co worker they decided to organize and protest Polaroid's business in South Africa we called ourselves the Polaroid Revolutionary Cause Movement Pr Wm we put the protests document on Polaroid Stationary Again. I had it I. got it. From the company writing to the company. Right. There you go. Polaroid put out another statement also on polaroid stationary quote polaroid has consistently refused to sell the idea to identification system directly or indirectly to the government of South Africa. Now compared to other US companies, like General Motors, IBM coca-cola, Polaroid's operations in South Africa were small. What business it did have in the country was through a local distributor called Frank and Hirsch technically polaroid had no employees no factories there all the prophets came from this distributor and they weren't much polaroid said sales were less than one half of one percent of the company's total global sales. It was this local company. Franken. Hirsch that sold the idea to system two parts of the South African government like the State Run Bureau of Mines and the Army, and the air force is hugely problematic because polaroid's technology was being used directly for the purposes of separating blacks from whites in South Africa in early October nineteen seventy the newly formed workers movement held a rally right outside of Polaroid's offices more than two hundred people showed up most of them are. And along with the speeches, the group presented polaroid with three demands recall for polar to denounce apartheid in the US and South Africa simultaneously that Polaroid immediately redraw South Africa that the turnover the prophets to the recognize the barrage movements fighting for the freedom. We saw salves as David. Helping the people fight Goliath shortly after the protest Ken, Williams stopped working for Polaroid and put his full attention to. The workers movement a few weeks. Later they held another protest this time calling for an international boycott of Polaroid Products Close Two thousand people attended hundred Williams waiting to see how polaroid would answer their demand that it withdraw from South Africa and they weren't the only ones. So did the CEO's and executives of other US companies doing business in that country several of whom were on the board of Polaroid This is a major moment in not only the history of the anti-apartheid struggle but I would say the history of of Labor History of American business. It's an incredible demand because it's unprecedented at the time no other corporation had been pressured by its workers to do something like this. What polaroid decided could ripple through the rest of Corporate America. That's when we come back. In the wake of covid nineteen, the topic of travel has been many people's minds including Cambria, hotel, senior, Vice President Janice Cannon. Here's what she has to say about how hotels are adjusting guests needs will helping them relax and be at their best. Today's travelers are looking for reassurance when they're taking a trip and Cambria hotels understands that. We've implemented or commitment to clean initiative to put guests health safety and comfort I with enhanced best practices to promote cleanliness and social distancing. It's why we're also introducing our CAMBRIA contact concierge service. So guests can easily order room service request housekeeping and check out. These initiatives are crucial to us because we our guest to unwind knowing we have their wellbeing in mind whether that's enjoying me time in their guest room with a podcast playing through our bluetooth mirrors in our spa baths sitting on one of our amazing rooftop decks with a local craft beer are getting a taste of the city with some authentic cuisine. Cambria has over fifty locations across the country and we're looking to add more. We've just opened the Cambrian Madeira Beach Hotel in Saint Petersburg Florida, and we're about to open two more in Napa and Sonoma, and one in downtown Savannah later this year. Our goal is for every modern traveler to fill restored and energize during their stay at Cambria. And to understand that, we're listening to what you need. To Book your next stay at Cambria hotels visit choice hotels, dot com slash Cambria. We're back. Before we go any further I wanNA talk about polaroid and its founder. At the moment the workers movement called for a boycott at the time polaroid was a brand known and admired all around the world. I. Think of it as an absolute ideal of a technology company that tries to stay ahead of any competition through real creativity invention. This is Christopher Bananas, the author of instant, the story polaroid in the early two thousands holroyd filed for bankruptcy twice, and eventually the brand and its intellectual property was sold to another company. But when polaroid was at its peak in the nineteen seventies if you're looking for a modern day parallel, well, that's pretty easy apple. And Google and in particular apple because the only thing about Florida's FA really really braced industrial design they one of the products to be fantastic objects that really really wanted that you would call it and the person at the center of Polaroid was Edwin land he started the company in Nineteen thirty seven and ran it until the late seventies during the company's Heyday Polaroid was land he was an inventor with over five hundred patents to his name and one of them was for the instant camera when he unveiled the first one in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seven, a New York Times editorial described in saying there is nothing like this in the history of photography. Land was visionary. He wanted to make products that changed the world in a documentary about polaroid made in nineteen seventy called. The long walk land reaches into his coat pulls out his wallet and pretends to take a picture with it, and then puts it back in his pocket. Sound familiar land says this new camera would be over the telephone. Something that you all day long whenever. An occasion arises in which you want to make sure that you cannot trust your memory. Or when you want to. Record any object of great interest. Ko are any beautiful sane but for land polaroid wasn't just about making cool gotta have products. He also wanted to change lives starting with the people who worked at Polaroid land was known to say Polaroid is people he really truly believed that the plenty provided by capitalism afforded an opportunity for normal people to achieve greatness again, Eric Morgan professor at the University of Wisconsin. These values he absolutely believed in that a company like polaroid wanted to give opportunities to African Americans to women to contribute to spreading democracy to creating a more equitable and just world. You see this en- lands response to the assassination of Martin Luther King Junior in nineteen, sixty eight. The morning after land stood in front of a group of mostly white employees and told them that the nation was in a moment of crisis land said that polaroid was a leader in corporate America and as such he asked if there wasn't something more, the company could do to hire and train black workers at all levels of the company at numbers equal to the percentage of black residents in the Boston area. Land at vision of himself and his company as progressive and enlightened. That's how many of hordes worker saw things too. So when Caroline Hunter and the Polaroid Revolutionary Workers Movement revealed the company's involvement in South Africa. While employees were confused and embarrassed and they began asking what does polaroid really stand for I? Think there is general shock and discomfort with the connection. Whole raid and partied. From the Workers Movement perspective though that's all lies the company tried to explain its business in south. Africa. But with each statement and put out with even more disclosures were sometimes contradictory. It just created more questions in the meantime the Workers Movement honed its message it didn't have to be able pullback worker to buy boulevard didn't have to be black to eight apartheid. You just had to be right thinking and identify with the inhumanity what was happening in south. Africa. Now a thing to keep in mind is what was happening across America? At this time this was one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, they were ongoing sometimes. Protests against the Vietnam War this was the year four students were shot and killed Kim state by the Ohio National Guard in addition women and gay people were demanding their rights and there was a growing anti-apartheid movement especially on college campuses like the ones near Polaroid places like Harvard and Mit and other Boston schools. The Workers Movement got support from those students as well as an important boost from the American Committee on Africa and National Group focused on African issues. As much as polaroid might have said, it would not answer the demands of the Workers Movement and also couldn't ignore them. Polaroid's hand was forced Edwin Land said I've never been bullied and pushed around in my life. I'm not going to be now but there is a clear connection between the workers movement and what happens around this time land been laser focused on developing a new instinct camera years later would be described as magic but as the protest grew and got more media attention, he recognized that he needed to answer the question. Is it right for Polaroid? To do business in South Africa as a former executive, put it land knew that an attack on his company was an attack on him. So one of the first things he did was an interview with the Boston Globe Land told a reporter that he was unaware of how polaroid products were being used in south, Africa but it turns out others polaroid were aware and no action was taken. It confirmed that Franken Hirsch was selling it to organizations that were connected to the South African government absolutely not even selling to organizations but selling directly to the South African government. holroyd eventually conceded that nearly twenty percent of the film it sold to its distributor Franken Hirsch ended up being used for passbook photos. So Polaroid announced, it would immediately stop selling any products that could be used in the past program. Next the company created an executive committee that included seven white and seven black employees to figure out what polaroid should do with its business in South Africa land spoke to the group and told them quote the world is watching us right now polaroid. Is considered a great and generous company shouldn't we use that power but almost immediately, the company had a Snafu what did it mean for Polaroid to get out of south? Africa remember it had no employees no factories only deal with a local distributor Franken Hirsch it could in that relationship but then Franken, I could just as easily by polaroid products from say company and then resell them in South Africa simply withdrawing didn't mean polaroid products disappear from South Africa so what to do? At one point during to long days of meetings, a black member of the committee stood up and said, he was leaving when asked why he replied for one Hundred Years Whitey has been telling black people. What's good for them. Now, we're sitting here trying to do the same thing for blacks in South Africa I. Don't think we should be doing that. Will someone asked him what he thought they should do and he said quote, we should go over there and ask them what they WANNA do. With that inside polaroid had a plan for what it would do next and it decided it would tell the world again Eric Morgan November twenty fifth. It's place advertisements and major newspapers all cross the country the pose the question what is Polaroid doing in south? Africa. What is Polaroid doing in South Africa? This ad this question pretty remarkable for a company even caroline hunter couldn't quite believe it. What did you think of that ad? Oh, we loved it. It was like we bought all the newspapers would only. Let's be clear. The AD itself did not impress her but the company had just given her and the workers move in a big boost. The ads started off with polaroid describing its business in south. Africa it talked about the workers movement and its demands, and then polaroid stated very publicly. Quote we abhor apartheid Pori becomes the first major American Corporation as far as I can find that publicly. Imprint denounces partied, and that's important. Right? Because it sets a precedent someone has to do I and polaroid is is the first one to do that the ad then went on to ask a series of questions should we stop doing business? There would have put black people out of work. The company didn't really offer many answers, but there was one to that first question what is polaroid doing in South Africa answer we don't know. So to find out the company announced, it would send four employees to white to black to south, Africa, to investigate and when they returned, they'd make a recommendation for what polaroid should do they go to South Africa for about ten days they basically want to talk to South Africans both white and black alike, they want to go to the distributor Franken Hirsch and see what the working conditions are for blacks they want it's hot to blacks and whites. The distributor as well, the men from Polaroid talked with over one hundred and fifty South Africans they learn that Franken? Hirsch had been paying black workers less than white workers and nearly every black South African they spoke to they said, they heard a common refrain don't leave use your influence. When the foreman got back to Cambridge Day presented unanimous recommendation Polaroid should stay in South Africa and do more to help the black employees. In January of Nineteen seventy-one, the company announced that's exactly what it would do in yet another newspaper ad this time in the New York Times Washington Post the Boston Globe in twenty newspapers in black communities under the headline and experiment in South Africa Polaroid said, it would work with its distributor Franken Hirsch to raise salaries of black employees, offer workplace training, and provide financial support for more education and Polaroid hope that other American, companies would join its experiment. Question was. Can we have an influence incrementally or do we need to to destroy this all at once and that's ultimately what it comes down to? In many ways though the experiment didn't pose much of a risk for polaroid again, it had no employees factories in South Africa and the prophets were small instead polaroid state because it and its founder believed it could make a difference if a corporation has a conscience and I think I'd woodland would believe that a corporation does because INC is not just profit its employees right? It's values. And so if it does have a conscience. It. Should act upon its conscience. But Polaroid's experiment did not meet the demands of hunter and the Workers Movement. They saw the decision to stay supporting apartheid because it did nothing to challenge the laws of the white government polaroid is using the American standards for people to think that apartheid is a little light segregation. And so we're GONNA, make some improvements for our workers when her argument was. You're impacting the whole the African asses richer product. When we come back the lessons, the polaroid experiment come into focus for everyone. Brought to you by uncovers hidden stories of brands, we love here Cambria hotels director of Brand Operations Rick Her Tan will give us a behind the scenes look at how Cambria offers guests and authentic experience with beer and food that is reflective of the destination and relaxing spaces to enjoy it. No to Cambria hotels are. Each property is reflection of the destination itself at camera you want travelers to get a feel for the city. Even if they don't have time to leave the four walls of the hotel. This comes to life in particular are carefully crafted food and beverage program. We work directly with our sister up our certified beer expert if you will to hand select locally crafted beer for each camera location. Giving example Asheville North Carolina. 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Polaroid's experiment in South Africa got away and because the company had been candid about its thinking and what it was going to do some time thought the polaroid came off looking progressive again, Eric Morgan no matter what caused the polaroid experiment whether it was pressured by the Workers Movement whether it was actually a decision by polaroid itself just the acknowledgement of Polaroid's complicity in a partake and its willingness to bring this story to the forefront of American consciousness that alone was so important, right? Other. Companies like GM Ford and IBM were paying attention. They had much bigger operations in South Africa and bigger profits, and in the late seventies into the eighties when they face demands to withdraw, they responded by copying the polaroid experiment they said they could do more by staying in improving the lives of black South Africans to the opportunities for South Africans. However, the response to the polaroid experiment was mixed. Some praised the company while others called the experiment tragic instead polaroid had done exactly what the South African government wanted supporters of the government said the company was giving into radical black employees. As for the Polaroid Revolutionary Workers Movement, they definitely were not impressed. They called the experiment in insult and said, the company was lying to hide support for the South African government. The boycott of Polaroid would continue. Was There any merit at all to the experiment? No, no, we didn't buy disarray at all. We never did all along. We knew that the the prize was poor out of South Africa. So all of these steps along the way, all that stuff was just a diversion to keep us from our focus and for our goal a few weeks after Polaroid's announcement hundred Williams testified at the United Nations before Special Committee on apartheid up to this point hundred was still employed at polaroid shortly after testimony the. Company sent a note to all its employees reminding them that calling for or supporting boycott of polaroid could be grounds for dismissal. Then the next day at the very same hour a week from the day of protests I'm called into my manager's office and give him my lead off suspension, which shy I accept it but I write my of my protesters on a letter, and I'm told to take my things and leave the building. So when you were suspended from Polaroid, what did that do for you? Gave me twenty four seven all day to work on the boys common. So it kind of backfired for them because that was more speaking events more protests more everything. She and limbs continued to gather support from more groups upset with Polaroid and it's experiment that included the African National, Congress numerous faith-based groups and college students. Especially from Harvard, they held teach INS and protested Edwin land speeches but despite the outcry and more people calling on polaroid to withdraw the experiment continued for another six years by nineteen seventy, seven SALESA polaroid products in south. Africa reached around. Four million dollars still insignificant compared to Polaroid's more than a billion dollars in global sales. But then again, the company thought it was doing something more than it was doing good South Africa in fact, wages did go up for black people working for polaroid's distributor and nearly half a million dollars went to scholarships and other programs. It looked as experiment originally to last for year would keep ongoing. That is until slight problem wasn't covered and the experiment failed. The Polaroid Corporation distributor Franken Hirsch is found to still be distributing. It's eighty two and other technology to the South African government in one, thousand, nine, hundred, Ninety, seven, the Boston Globe revealed that the distributor was shipping polaroid products in unmarked boxes, unmarked vans to various government agencies including one that issued passbooks part of the operation even included submitting false invoices from a pharmacy in downtown Johannesburg to hide the. Sales as part of the deal to stay in south, Africa Franken hearse was barred from selling polaroid products directly to the government but that's exactly what it was doing and when polaroid found out, it was left with no choice and announced it would withdraw from South Africa. So not only polaroid become the first company to speak out against the partied in one thousand, nine, hundred seventy becomes the first company to. Enact positive changes from within but now becomes the first American Corporation to withdraw from south. Africa. But it didn't do it because of the boycott and it wasn't because polaroid suddenly changed its position on doing business in South Africa it withdrew because Franken Hirsch had lied. For Caroline Hunter and Ken Williams Polaroid's announcement not mean the end of their campaign. In fact, the withdrawal was not even something they describe as a success after seven years of boycotts and protests Holroyd had still not met their demands. They save now we're going to pull out and we say that we still don't believe you because until a part that is disbanded and the parents book is ended your technology is critical and it's still going to be there so you're feeling that even when they announced that they're pulling out you, you believe that they still had business in south. Africa. That's right. That's right and we're saying we want them boycotted until all the demands are met turn the Prophets of liberation movements and all a multinational withdraw from stuff. So. We continued the campaign beyond that we there was no applause from you not at all. So you didn't see this as a victory when polaroid seventy seven said we're pulling out of South Africa. It was a symbolic victory for the sake of the movement symbolic from the sense of the power of the people that finally got them to say what we said was true all along. That their role was significant in apartheid, South Africa and they leaving. Even in the nominal sense is significant because now is the beginning of pressure being applied to other corporations say you to Shit Redraw. When polaroid left there are about three hundred fifty American companies doing business in South Africa companies like general, motors, Ge Chase, and Citibank. The financial stakes for them were much greater with investments and loans totaling close to four billion dollars after polaroid announced its withdrawal, the growing international movement against apartheid put enormous pressure on them do the same. In the nineteen eighties, these companies faced a moment of reckoning just like polaroid. Yeah. It's not only the I. It's a microcosm of the struggle. It's a precursor doesn't capsule eight all of the debates over strategy way before the larger movement gained momentum and steam. So yeah the polaroid story kind of sets the tone for what is to happen in the movement over the next decade and a half. US companies tried to justify their operations in South Africa along the same lines as polaroid, but in the face of protests and boycotts, international sanctions and a failing economy in that country more and more, US, companies began to invest in the nineteen eighties eventually apartheid came to an end but in nineteen seventy, this was all uncharted territory for Polaroid in corporate America and for protesters like the Workers Movement it was revolutionary and unprecedented to employees calling on their employer to sever ties with south. Africa over apartheid. Polaroid and it's founder Edwin Land thought experiment can help black South Africans living under apartheid even if the benefits were limited, what responsibilities do corporations have to support, social justice and Democracy and human rights to me that's larger takeaway of the of the Polaroid story it's the influence that individuals can have in the case of the Workers Movement and its supporters in putting pressure on large. Powerful organizations and then the the questions at polaroid itself raise what responsibilities did it have and what responsibilities do corporations have in promoting equality and justice and human rights in a global. A. In the article Professor Morgan wrote about Polaroid and South Africa he quotes an executive who described the experiment this way the effect was like a spoon in an ocean a very small effect but for us it was the right thing to do. But there was only so much polaroid could do as long as apartheid continued. So that raises the question was the job of polaroid to end apartheid. No it wasn't, but it was it the job of polaroid to profit from time was our question and our answer was no. No. This episode was produced by me was Sarah Wyman enjoy press. Thanks to clarify Darus, Tyler Murphy and insider also a big shot out to Sarah softness for the tip and always pays to tell your friends what you're working on. If you WANNA learn more about this story or polaroid, we've got links in the description for this episode and at our website thank include documents. The Polaroid Revolutionary Workers Movement Eric Morgan's paper. The world is watching Anna linked to Christopher Bananas Book instant the Polaroid Story and a programming note we're about to take a short break while we work on new episodes. But if you've been enjoying the show and want to support us, here's what you can do. Spread the word to your friends I. Know You hear this on? podcast all the time leave review on. stitcher apple podcast spotify, get your podcast. But really honestly does make a difference and it helps more listeners find the show. Also, if you want to support the kind of journalism you find in this podcast, then consider subscribing to business insider just go to read dot the I forward slash podcast and there you'll find a discount subscription. Finally for you our listeners, what do you want to hear more of what recent episode did you love? You just couldn't wait to share with your friends tell us or e email is bt Wi be at insider dot com on twitter you can find his at bt Wi Pod, and then of course, there's are very friendly facebook group just search brought to you by podcast. In, the meantime we'll be hard at work on the new fall season wasn't intentional but there's a bit of a theme. We're excited share with you. Now for the very deserved credits for the summer season are sound. Engineer is Bill Moss. Music is from Audio Network, John Laura and Casey Holford composer theme. Our editor is Michaela Bligh. Dan Bobkov is the podfather. Sarah. Wyman is our show runner brought to you by is production of insider audio. This episode has been brought to you by Cambria hotels.

Polaroid South Africa South Africa Polaroid Revolutionary Workers Africa Caroline Hunter Workers Movement Africa Franken Ken Williams Franken Hirsch United States Africa founder Cambria Franken Hirsch Edwin Land Johannesburg Cambria
Ep. 188: The Burden Bureaucrats Bear at Indian Affairs

MEDIA INDIGENA : Indigenous current affairs

36:54 min | 1 year ago

Ep. 188: The Burden Bureaucrats Bear at Indian Affairs

"Hello I'm Richard From Winnipeg. This is media and digital episode one eighty eight on this week's indigenous roundtable. The bureaucrats burden. Could there be any job tougher than bring Indian affairs sources at Indian affair? Say No wow. What a scoop. That's right in a global news exclusive senior officials at indigenous services. Canada wish Canadians better understood. All the great work they do something they say has been difficult to communicate effectively and they think they know why spoiler thoughts on the web. I told you in a moment will dive deep into this departmental dismay and diagnosis. But first we have some people to thank part of our drive for five hundred supporters by twenty twenty on patriot and as we hit the home stretch. Here are the newer patrons getting us. Oh so close to our goal new patrons like Allison Janine Claudia Wall Samantha. Toby Isabel Maureen Violet and Robin all each. Now pledging one dollar every month Matt Ginger Drew Aurora an amber each two dollars Andrew at three Kira at four at five dollars each harp and Jeremy Archie. Clint Nina David Daniel Denise Lisa Kendall Holly and Ricki Lee at at ten dollars a month each are derek cat and Eric. Thank you all thanks to you. We now sit at a record. Four hundred and fifty eight supporters. Forty two pledges away from our target. Be Among those who help us get there? Go to media and digital dot com and click the pink supporters and joining me at the roundtable. This week are in the mountain time zone of Evanston. It's Ken Williams Assistant Professor with the University of Obama's Department of Drama Kenneth. I everyone Ed. In the eastern time zone of McDougal -TARIO associate professor of indigenous studies at York University Brockman Oana Quad Brock. Hi Rick I can all right. Our topic is one of struggle and sadness this week story of beleaguered bureaucrats who feel much misunderstood and maligned. Well at least that's the picture painted by federal documents obtained by Global News chief political correspondent David Aken and according to a story officials in the Indigenous Services Department believe they've made significant progress improving the lives of first nations in you. It and may T- people but seem to suggest OUGHTA was not getting enough credit for the work gets done on issues. Such as boil water advisories and providing some but not all remote indigenous communities with high speed Internet access. Man Can when will the white man's burden ever see lifted from those carrying colonial shoulders when people give Indian affairs affair shake I mean. Do you think it's easy? Under-funding nations education child welfare and infrastructure. Course it is. I fear humanity has yet to invent a bom or SAV capable of soothing. This open puzzle wound to the heart of Indian affairs. Managers seriously though. Can what got you interested in this story. Because you're you're behest that we decided to tackle this topic this week. The one of the things that stuck out for me when the story came out was references to fake news and twitter bots where the reason why a just services count was having trouble getting their message out. I was thinking to myself No that's not the reason Okay before you go any further winter pots for the uninitiated. What what is it? Twitter bought it right. Yeah right now while we know the phrase fake news has been Trump pretty much trademarked. It has attack on the media and it's become it's unfortunately becoming far more issues more often but twitter bought is an actual isn't actual thing that is threatening both do communications into Journalists into democracy everywhere and these are automated Automated trolls in people. Need to know what a troll is. Please go google it because I don't have enough time to explain all that stuff but Yeah twitter BOT is an automatic. It's an algorithm fits into it does a keyword search and then it already has a preset message attacking or setting up a new narrative that sorta counters the the narrative. You're trying to say or it. It does kind of shifting of the perspective by making fun of it. Okay so if if not for these Twitter twitter bought accounts. Everyone would be loving Indian affairs. Right is that can't that's that's exactly what they're saying. While according to the according to the article that David Aken Road it's And I was like laughing when I heard that that this is the reason why they think their message. All the positive things that they are trying to accomplish is not getting out Because my reaction to that is like you know every time your child comes home with a a ribbon. That says participant. You're supposed to to the refrigerator. This is what you know. It just disservices. Canada isn't getting the praise they feel. They deserve and my point of view anyways because whatever they accomplish is still like such a low bar In her to the mountain compared to the mountain of problems and issues that let's put it also honestly on them they create So it's not you know I'm GONNA go. Hey Yeah you've got got one more reserve. That now has water they. Drink TAP Ray Okay let's get to the rest of them. Let's get the grassy narrows and that's just not an aggressive is the epitome of the mercury poisoning is not the only mercury. Pois- so there's just so much rage me that they don't get the the hugging the hero biscuit for him coming in just finishing the race. Like Jesus. Yeah No. It's it's sorry I swore you're gonNA bleed a lot of that That's that's all right. That's all right I mean it. It is sometimes just stunning the the goal of wanting pats on the back if not more attention for getting digits peoples to the baseline enjoyed by the absolute majority of Canadian celebrating it. When you're literally doing the least the bare minimum. Oh yeah it's it's fantastic. That to me is Yuk way to go. Yeah yes this is. Why your messages of successes of success are not getting out there? Yeah Gimme a break. Yeah so just to put this in larger context so again. This was Obtained through a freedom of information request. Where you basically asked the government. You know I have an interest in particular area. Extra why please send me all documents related to that and then I guess what came was basically a kind of like a powerpoint presentation forty six pages long and Yeah it was mapping out. I guess the terrain of of accomplishments but also challenges including Communications Challenges Brockett you you had some interest in this story to what what grabs you about it. I think what stood out to me was. There is a difficulty in terms of any governments communication strategy. Because ideally they're seeking to self perpetuate right so the liberal government is thinking had in. This was a document that was prepared for the minister. So how do they get credit? And I ideally avoid accumulating too much blame or negative attention that would actually deter. Stop people from showing up in voting liberal. That's that's kind of the way I interpret this and so I I do see why. There's a communication challenge for the department. Because so often I think certainly coming from our perspective We see any investment in indigenous communities. As as good as it's it's necessary long overdue and as Ken mentioned and you mentioned Rick were still talking about bringing so many indigenous communities up to a minimum standard that other Canadians take for granted so that I do understand. I agree with that sense of frustration. I I I think the in terms of the sort of the political aspect of this for the minister for the Liberal Government. The challenges is not to be perceived as being too hard. I say this soft too beholden. Yeah exactly too. Soft on indigenous issues and the government did like at least rhetorically. I. We've talked about this. Many Times. Trudeau said the most important relationship in Canada was the relationship between his incoming government. This was four years ago and indigenous peoples. And that's part of the reason why I find. This story is interesting as well. Because the the government has promised so much inconsistently under delivered and yet the public perception will be somewhere in the middle. I think. And that's what I'm I'm kind of curious to to get a better sense of there was another story that we looked at a couple of months ago wreck that you were proposing to us and it was showing that the reconciliation wave has started to crash. Do you remember. This was the globe in Mail story and there had been a survey done and it showed that broad public support for reconciliation was now showing that It was receiving it or yeah so affected peaked. Yeah it peaked in was starting to come down and so I think in some ways like being alert to that is important as well and I it just because I mean I'm old enough now to look back at how certain governments have come to power in large part almost by campaigning against Indigenous issues than the one that comes to mind right away would be the BC liberal party right around the time that the final agreement was being negotiated in the BBC treaty process was still being set up by what was then the the end ep government in BC and the the Liberal leader at the time. came out so strongly against any concession of while specifically against the initiative agreement but also against BBC treaty process in principle and he won an enormous one of the biggest electoral majority governments in in the country's history. So that's I I am interested in that I am have been for a long time by sort of that idea of political marketing. Essentially how how do governments and politicians specifically craft their message for their electorate? And I think that that is in. Some ways is always going to be a challenge for for governments in Canada when it comes to indigenous issues. And it's unfortunately they're reaping what they sowed because for so many years they've made it sound that You know indigenous peoples have great that They have All kinds of benefits whether it's in housing education that really the list you just provided us in terms of child welfare education housing and that's unfortunately that's become fixed in the broader public a conscience of what What indigenous people receive and so in some ways like they're they're victims of their own propaganda Okay it's interesting right because this is a document an internal document it wasn't meant for for public consumption so what I always think about now is who was it written for is a is written internally but it was also written In terms of spin as you say towards the larger general public which is absolutely predominantly non-indigenous. So they're they're just trying to think. How can we sell? How can we spin? How can we present what we're doing in the best possible late Which I mean. That's what every bureaucrat is. Trying to do which away just as a quick los ice of it makes me wonder. What's the news value of this story? This this is an age old orientation of the federal bureaucracy. Why would we report on? Well what do you know? Senior Indian affairs officials feel. They're doing the best job possible. Say Senior Indian affairs officials like? Wow what a revelation. What a scoop but we. We investigated ourselves and we are innocent. That's not quite but you know this is about right. This is about you make a really. I think you make a fair point bracket basically you know if we were to give federal bureaucrats the benefit. How do they sell something that for the longest time they themselves worked against? Yes thank you. That's sums up to the contradiction there. Yeah and so now they have a handy. Fake News. Bought Accounts Spreading disinformation on social media. That's literally a quote from this document in terms of one of the challenges in the communication's sphere the militias spread. Disinformation often targets polarizing issues. And this kind of activity increases leading up to an election according to a CBC article about twitter trolls. I'm reading again from these F. Wide Freedom of information requested documents according to a CBC Article About Twitter Trolls Troll campaign of twenty one thousand six hundred tweets directly targeted Canadians last year. Many of these messages were critical. Canadian pipeline projects which is an inter- like why would you insert stuff about pipelines when we're talking about boil water when we're right when they're otherwise talking about ball water advisories and education? Anyway I'm amazed actually. I'M AMAZED RUSS DIVA's name didn't come up specifically I WANNA see a list of these trolls that the troll Indian affairs specifically well. That's exactly it right. Who you know okay. So you mentioned the pipeline thing that interests That's but that's not specific to indigenous services. Canada know exactly yeah. I would like to know from Indigenous Services Canada which trolls they're talking about which Which fake news. Which twitter boss. Because you know I follow this stuff rather extensively and I see very little amplification if that would make me think that there's a twitter bought involved because you know twitter bots amplify things into the millions very quickly By you know by recycling repeating and then getting other people to recycle repeat what they're saying That I see happening with Anything involving indigenous services candidate. I don't see them getting millions of hits on their tweets. I don't see them getting millions of hits on their stories I see them getting. Maybe thousands and I see a lot of the perspective usually when it's negative comes from us you know as three Candice and Kim as well We're fake news Ken. We're victims. Yeah we're fake news. Yeah because we have to have no idea what we're talking about you know. God forbid and indigenous person has perspective. But you know that's the thing is that we don't have I don't I? Don't see the evidence in that claim. That's a pretty. That's pretty far-reaching claim to make that our message is failing to be received positively because of twitter bots that just I would like to see the numbers on that if they could prove that yes. I'll gladly take that. Take that back but Again I'd have to run an extensive search in whatever you know but I I do follow this stuff very closely. I do not see that as a as happening. I see hundreds of repeats. Maybe maybe tens of repeats but not the millions or hundreds of thousands now. Now what about Brock's Point Which I'll I'll I'll bring up by citing again this. This document Communications considerations it talks about the challenge about how communicating effectively about indigenous issues can be difficult. These issues can be complex subject to different interpretations by different audiences and may lack immediacy for the general public also. The public environment is crowded with other issues making it challenging to sustain focus on indigenous concern. So I mean are they trying to tell us that you know that they're concerned? Canadians aren't picking up on all the good they're doing. Is that what they're trying to say or that there's issues involved at all like yes. It is complex but it's complex Because this is a fundamental this is the foundational relationship for this nation. It doesn't exist without indigenous consent. So yeah that's that's the very beginning of the whole thing and they've been trying to erase indigenous consent and and Nationhood Culture from the very beginning and now all of a sudden they want to change their minds but again focusing on the fact that it's an internal document. Sometimes I feel like this is just meant to to spin within because this was going to be part of a presentation for the then Indian Affairs Minister as he prepared a brief a key. Federal Cabinet Committee about results to date and key achievements by indigenous services Canada. And I think of it like that I it almost seems like you kind of boilerplate. Well guys things are complex knows. Turn that sentence around. These issues can be simple subject to complete agreement by all audiences and have urgent immediacy for everyone in Canada. Like such sentence exists when it comes to communications. It's saying it has the beauty of saying something and absolutely nothing so I dunno I in a weird way. I've started to come over to brookside where like let's give them the benefit of the doubt. They're not very competent. They don't really give about Indians. They're just trying to sell this to the people they need to sell it to and I don't know maybe I'm Planning Bra. That's probably true. That's probably true. I would actually take that if in yes definitely was not meant for larger public and it started comes across as you explain it that way. It's starting to make me think. Please save our asses like we're trying to do a good job here. We must be. We must justified to the prime minister. His own idea of splitting the Department of Northern Affairs separate departments trying to sell it to to their boss. Yeah whose idea was to create in the first place like yes. We're doing a good job. Mr Prime Minister. Your idea was awesome. But we're having problems making it look man but you know still I it. It's obviously not for us. And and it just comes across ridiculous to hear this to basically get the message. Look where decolonizing. Fast as we can alright peak decolonization and and it's the racism of of lowered expectations Really coming to the fore now something else. I'm also reminded of though in consuming this story and just trying to put it in its proper. Proper place is something that Cindy blackstock wrote actually a couple of months ago in the Toronto Star it was with reference to senior bureaucrats. The kind who produced document and I it was in the context of how the federal bureaucracy once again not necessarily indigenous services. Canada's probably justice candidate that that was leading this but basically pushed to quash compensation to first nations kids hurt by the on reserve child welfare system which has been chronically systemically underfunded for forever. So let me just read this quote. Now she's talking here about Jordan's principle which is which is about funding for health care when it's not clear what the jurisdiction is very much consistent with with the whole debate around under-funding. Here's what here's part of what you wrote. Federal statistics show that since nineteen eighty nine. First nations kids spent over seventy seven million nights in foster care twelve times the rate of other kids one four year old girl required hospital bed so she would not suffocate when she visited her family over the Christmas holidays. The request went through over a dozen federal bureaucrats before someone said absolutely not in another case. Parents were forced to wash feeding tubes for their terminally. Ill Child because candidate would not provide a sufficient number one of the most disturbing indictments of the federal system came in the form of a twenty twelve award given by then Indian affairs. Deputy Minister Michael. Were Nick who went on to become the top bureaucrat in the Privy Council Office An award he gave to bureaucrats who ensured. There were zero services approved via Jordan's principle by denying requests like the bed and feeding tubes. So this is twenty seven years ago. I don't know if it's fair to bring it up but you have to wonder I mean there are Bonuses based on performance pay and the lake depending on whether or not you do the job of the department As set out by by you know by the ruling government of the day and by the by the public service senior public service so This all makes me swing back away from where Brock was taking us to say. You know I don't trust these guys as far as I can throw them. I would be more outraged if I wasn't already so cynical. Okay it just seems to me that that just makes perfect sense as to how anything involving additional services anything involving indigenous people in their day-to-day working with the federal government on anything like we looked like the other evidence we had out there is there their willingness to spend over one hundred thousand dollars in legal fees the fight like six thousand dollars in dental services to one person that is just typical to me and that the fact that they would Monetize and and reward basically do is what a corporation would do. We're giving you a bonus for saving US money. Yeah Yeah Yeah so. That's no different. It doesn't make it doesn't end. That's exactly how they think you know it's all about. How much can we spend? On indigenous people without it becoming criminally obvious that we're underfunding indigenous people. Well they wouldn't put in these terms but it it just feels like what can we get away with? What's the least we can get away with? And we don't know what. The current incentive structure is in place. Now maybe that's what. David Akers should be Hawaiian. Frankly what's the opposite of the benefit of the doubt? The detriment of the. I don't know but I I just don't I don't try like I already said I. Just don't trust them. I mean brock. Were you aware of this? of this unfortunate Jordan's principle Award In terms of basically you know the more cases. You deny the the the more likely you are to win to be the champion of denying kids care. Well according Cindy blocks. Yeah like Kim said I I think with my cynicism prevents me from being shocked by it. I mean it's just it's deeply disappointing but considering that the government and this is kind of what. I was alluding to earlier as well. The government will make announcements of like spending Infrastructure Development Program Development and so often when it actually comes to the the delivery of that they'll underfunded. Dale are the replicate the announcement multiple times to make it sound as if it's much bigger than it is right. And another cases like in this instance. They they'll actually do the opposite of what I would just say struggling with the what phrase us but just what any sort of sense of justice would would require and I know this was true as well like in the years that we had. The Harper government was in power even though they were cutting funding for safer indigenous like schools on reserve. Or whatever. You almost any program. They were leaving funds in each fiscal year. That went unspent. That's right and then that money ended up going back. So it's just kind of like this consistent pattern of creating a facade. I think for the broader public that yes indigenous were taking care of indigenous people. You know. Don't don't worry we we got it sorted out just You know get back to your regular lives. Whatever distractions there are and yet perpetuate that underfunding lack of care and in some cases like outright hostility. Like Ken mentioned with The example of fighting indigenous children's right to You know fair dental dental services. The point you made about having access to information would be so valuable in terms of what are the actual goals because the Trudeau government has made a sort of a public spectacle of the letters that That he writes to each of his cabinet ministers at the outset so in terms of the directions that he is giving each of ministers in terms of what their duties will be for as long as their their office and it would be very helpful to know. What are the similar Inducements I guess or targets that senior civil servants are working towards because if if that is in fact the case that there were specific monetary rewards paid to bureaucrats to thwart indigenous people receiving medical care. I mean that to me is just so disturbing. If that's that's in fact part of the reward structure yeah and I mean if it comes to light that there's a reward structure in place for getting rid of all long-term boil water advisories for. Let's say three years right. And then three as opposed to getting getting rid of it so that you can do the press release on it and then two weeks later it comes back you know what I mean. It comes back into effect because as we know they come in and out. It's it's always transitory. It's never a permanent solution. Just like the funding. It's year to year to year type of crisis crisis crisis crisis Yeah if there's an incentive structure for that but they'd probably be promoting the heck out of it so it's notable I don't know it'd be maybe it's right there in black and white on the website if someone can find it and let us know we can talk about it later but I'd be happy to but Another another thing that came across my radar that I feel fits into this. And I'd like to get your reaction to it. It's it's Unfortunately I haven't had haven't had the time to watch it but al Jazeera has done What seems to be a formidable amount of research into what's going on with the pipeline which we know is about to ramp up the next phase of construction and According to one of its tweets both Trans Mountain and Ottawa conducted separate rounds of consultations with more than one hundred and thirty indigenous groups. In recent years we analyze consultation data and found just three percent of twenty five thousand reported consultations from two thousand fifteen to twenty. Eighteen were conducted in person. So I'm just trying to square that fact on the ground with this idea that you know you know what our challenges fake news and bots spreading. Disinformation give you give me a break. I swear to God that that should be the new name of the podcast. Give me a break. Because that's what we're always anyway. I just I still can't shake this nagging question in my head. Why is this a story Initially I gotTA confess. Initially I thought this was a leak by the bureaucracy to to to the chief political correspondence and then you know. I obviously had to read the article I went. Oh this was. This was F- allied. This is entirely different. They they weren't trying to spin or or work on somebody in in the political media. This is just so but I. I was still left bewildered. Like why is this? A story bureaucrats wanting to advocate for themselves. And the great job that they're doing 'cause this is the thing. I I'm wondering if Canadian get past the first two or three paragraphs which are you know Indian affairs really trying and wish people would would talk about the good news stories coming out of our Department okay. I don't know why like you know you file. File those things in a who knows what kind of fishing expedition David Aken was on. But you know 'cause 'cause you know you just you just sand out. F- allies like crazy Because sometimes you will find something Could be something as simple as Webb space. We need to fill the web space. Come on now get the goat fed. Yeah go Which you know. That's the unfortunate thing. That's something that happens quite a bit in journals especially like you know if you WANNA cut in my rant about the twenty four hour news cycle. That's a thing you gotta keep billing it and I don't know I would like to know what was what he was thinking. But there are some you know. There's a quote in there from you. Know the national chief but how good the liberal government has been to first nations people the past four years. Yeah but he was but he was relativistic about that. It was very relativistic about it. But that that could be a quote summit might WANNA throw back in his face a little later on because again to your point about who reads past the second paragraph. That's buried that's deep in. You know that that's the first quote you get from the national chief you don't get and if you just stopped reading then you wouldn't get the rest of it where he's actually had critical of all the other issues that still need to be you know mats and and and and worked on Again and the rare moments where parallel garden on the same page. He's basically saying. Don't give yourself a ribbon just for showing up you know. There's so much more that has to be done or a ribbon shirt as the case may be but so but it raises the interesting question right because I think you could plausibly argue that Aken was was trying to say like look at these competing narratives. Here's some insight into that but you know the the story didn't feel like it was for walks. The story felt like it was meant to be consumed by by the general public. You can't always know how your stories are going to be received. But ironically in a way this story doesn't diffuse the spin cycle at actually mix it accelerate faster. I feel that any story that can be casually consumed becomes fodder for the narrative that we're trying as hard as we. Can you know that alleviates? The embarrassment that Canadians feel and it and it's always about them. Feeling embarrassed at the Indians have been so miss mistreated. It's not not that it's going to result in restoration of access to land to anything that muddies the waters. helps become a suitable alibi for Canadians. Now having said that I guess I have sympathy for any journalist. Trying to navigate that because they want to appear objective Blah Blah Blah. But as we've said on the show when you live in a cellar colonial status quo just trying out. He said she said or they said Indian say is not is not sufficient. Is IT GONNA make? It doesn't muddy the waters. Come on this is this is. These are waters. That are like churned up there there's bones in the maters. There's like pollutants in them. Waters like Wisdom Hampshire. Yeah there's no clean Water Hampshire. Also I think this would be a great analysis for anyone. Studying how indigenous issues are covered by journalists. Do we look for nefarious under story while we. Kinda do just because that's where we are right but I think in reality I it was just like an F. O. I paid off. And he just printed up the information government. Yeah and to be fair to Aken towards the end of the story. He did talk about all the things that weren't referred to in his self-congratulatory self-serving yes powerpoint You know like grassy narrows the fact that Treatment Center hasn't been billed for them despite decades of mercury poisoning and years and years of promises to do so by the Trudeau government. All the other insufficient funding that that's chronic ongoing so rock final thoughts. I agree it's the author. Did identify some of the outstanding issues. End The national chief continues to tap dance down that line between you know completely coming over endorsing the Trudeau Liberals in still putting out that that qualifier on his his support for them by saying well. It's the best government we've had for the last forty or fifty years but again that's working off a really low bar but still in terms of recent memory a pretty obvious contrast with the Harper Conservatives. Were the relationship was at times you know completely adversarial so but yeah definitely the tone of the article. It certainly doesn't feel like take down of the Department of indigenous services by any means. Yeah I don't know but for some reason what you just said. Put the phrase in my mind be happy for what you get and that just seems to be the unstated through line of a lot of this stuff dammit Indians. It could be a lot worse. Yeah exactly know absolutely that comes through yet. We don't have looked back very far. Though on that note do we ever end on uplifting her? Merry Christmas you've already got your presence. Good God Daria. You should be happy. We put wrapping paper out of this. Well hopefully we'll talk to you before the New Year if not merry Christmas happy New Year however you mark the season Brock Zia can. That's it from media and digital episode. One hundred eighty eight reported the morning of Monday December. Ninth two thousand nine hundred thanks again to Brockton. And one aquatic associate professor of indigenous studies at York University and Ken Williams Assistant Professor at the University of Alberta Department of drama. This edition of the podcast is edited hosted and produced by yours truly rick hard. Thanks for listening. Everyone adversary Our theme is nesting bureaucratic.

Canada Twitter government David Aken Brock Zia Rick I Ken liberal government Indigenous Services Department Trudeau government Ken Williams Assistant Profess associate professor Trudeau Indigenous Services Canada Jordan Department of indigenous Winnipeg Evanston Allison Janine Claudia Wall Sa
Two Cities in Mourning

The Daily

28:06 min | 1 year ago

Two Cities in Mourning

"From new york times. I'm michael barr. This is the daily today. President trump visits to cities in warning the scene in dayton and el paso. It's thursday august state. What's it like being down here and seeing the memorials and seeing this entertainment district kind of become this pleasant morning very suffering. I mean it's very smart emotional stone asto still a lot of grief you can see it. You can feel it here at the end. It's going to take awhile recover from this by dayton. Hey michael how are you. I'm up quite a day here yeah so mich- with your indian talking to the people there on the day of the president's visit what exactly was the president walking into their shirl. President trump landed in ohio that remarkably short period of time since nine people were killed in an entertainment district on sunday morning had started to move from anguish and grief and shock to calls for action and some concrete proposals on what action might look like so the night of vigil on sunday the governor republicans republican kind of launched into the speech that every politician from either party give after transi likes us. This amazing crowd is is is stunning is on on on and i think it's a real testament to the love and the resiliency of this they should bring wonderful community that was kind of long ago on food short on policy and the people in just weren't having here's here's tonight. I was standing probably half a block down in like really couldn't hear a word he was saying they were shouting overcame. You can't ultralight with his feet but you couldn't hear him so tuesday morning at the statehouse in columbus and our team minutes up the road and again he's coming into the microphone in this closed freshman but someone of the hallway shows morning. Everyone do something that seemed cry that the federal on sunday some chanted do something and they were absolutely right. We must do something and that's exactly what we're going to do today. I'm announcing the following initiatives. The following actions came out with a series of holiday proposal. We can do this. We we can do the things that i outlined today what would include expanding background checks but but allow the police to take guns from people. That judge deems dangerous. Now's our time as state to come together. Ten crash republicans liberals conservatives. Everybody come together around the same time. The governor to winus having his news conference word starts to spread that president trump is coming to dayton the next morning so governor dewine. He's a republican publican. He's very supportive part of the president's job become for people who are hurting japan there in times of tragedy the mayor of dayton. She's the democrats. His rhetoric has been painful for many in our community. He has a different tape. I think that people should stand up and say they're not happy if they're not happy taking so from the start. There's a division over the president's trip to ohio yeah so the same division we're seeing among ohio's leaders of the president's visit is also planning out. I'm not ohio's voters ohio. Of course the whole long purple state swung pretty hard toward the president trump but this is a very purple area of a fairly purple state they didn't county voted for president trump and twenty sixteen by less than one one percentage point so it's about as full as you can get and so out on the ground on wednesday morning. It's the president's preparing to lan eh racist besides the has been here the republicans people with trump flags people who are standing there with signs that say dump trump pennant standing right next to each other on the sidewalk right next to these memorials israel's in this city that remains an estate of very fresh grief and shock and all waiting to see no one exactly knows where the president. There's going to go once. He gets the town all wondering if they're going to get a glimpse of the president himself with very different things they would want to tell them if they did you live in data and then today but south of dayton okay one of the first people i met with a man named j mcguire you about fifty samir okay i think on the corner no signs of any type just out there to see what's gonna pay respects. He said to the nine people who died news sunday morning my first call with my youngest son sir. I know he freaked with seven o'clock. In the morning. I woke welcome up but i was glad to hear his voice and he was okay. Yeah good thank goodness so you were worried that he could have been one of the victims. Okay well my other. My other son just missed just las vegas because he got called back in <hes> <hes> do a flight just pilot and you would have gone concerts. Gosh it's getting too close to home this certain fields absolutely i know i'm sure you know the president's landing ninety minutes or so he's going to pay respects here is that is that the good thing. Is that a bad thing when you make it from coming. I think it scripting because if he didn't come to caught hell for not coming. He's coming. He's going to catch l. but you know what we need a little up and he provided that. Do you think i think so not long after that. I met a mandy ken williams who also look at data area. That's right yes sir and what brought you out here today. Why do you wanna be out in oregon district sports community number one. I was i supposed to be here saturday. Inept peppers with friends and family came in town from florida in detroit so there wasn't their home so so you're saying you have things gone even a little bit differently. You may have been. I would have definitely been there being out here. This morning to the president's landing fairly shortly was that was that partition. Are you decision to come today yes. Why are you not excited. What do you make of it. It's a it's a it's a double edged sword. <hes> one <hes> excited he'd be able to voice an opinion about <hes> do something right there on the side. Do something what are you going to do. Give us a game plan. Give us combat. It gives us something. You don't have to give specifics. He'll give us something you said. It's a double edged sword then. I cut you off the bat. Was there good for him coming or a d. Do you see a positive. Here's the good would be if he's actually going to do something if he's going to talk to these people they're sending out here and there spooky live in this community people to live around this community. Are you going to listen to what we have to say. Are you going to respond to what we had to. You're gonna blow us off. Would you welcome the chance to have that conversation three days. After this mass shooting you have the people who showed up with pro-trump science anti-trump science not american flags. That wasn't what you saw for this presidential that it was very much. What did you think of the president for many people since so that really kind of colored the morning at one point a police major came up to a group of protesters sirs instruments said that she's been getting calls for business owners and workers hers down there some of whom who really have rested since the shooting happened spol- demonstration and counter demonstration ingathering and all the news cameras was just too much and it was making it worse. The police makers like you have a right to be here. You have a right to say what you wanna say in what you think about moving out the skew blocks and doing it somewhere just a little bit different a little bit removed from the rawness of this pain in pretty much. Everybody stayed put so what happens when the president finally arrives sure so he lands in the morning gets in a motorcade he goes to a hospital that treated some of the victims of nine shooting and he meets with the victims there he meets with a large group of first responders founders and he met with highest political leaders and then he got his motorcade and flu so he did not go to the oregon district where people can had gone to pay respecting where they had hoped to see the president at the site of the shooting and to be able to talk to him he did not there. Were people a bear to protest him if he did. They were people there to cheer him if he came there. Are people like ken who wanted the chance to talk to him. He didn't even go there. The mayor actually said that may kawais decision that was one. She supported that judging from the reaction at the central on sunday people there maybe weren't ready for it didn't want to have the president be present there. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me <music>. After the break my call nellie catch up on the scene in el paso the hassle hiring is an simple as putting an ad in the paper or posting to a job board that swirling didn't comes in over six hundred million members visit lincoln and linked. Make sure your job gets in front of people with the right skills. Things like collaboration work. Ethic adaptability. Lincoln does the legwork to match you to the most qualified candidates. It's who will transform your business to get fifty dollars off your first job. Post go to linked in dot com slash the daily terms and conditions apply michael crowley ali you cover the white house and you're in el paso now help us understand what's been happening in the days since the shooting there. What's what's different in el paso from what happened at dayton is the first of all more than twice as many people were killed at the walmart hearing l. paso the other and i think more politically explosive factor is that minutes before the shooting here a manifesto. Oh was posted online that may indicate a motive skinny attack and it is a manifesto that is anti immigrant and clearly are we racist and it also echos many of the fans and in some cases very language that president trump has used for months and years in his crusade to clamp down on illegal immigration and beef up border security and you know paso in particular there was a real sense that president trump should not come to the city that he bears. There's culpability for what happened and that he was essentially not welcome. President trump called me yesterday. He was very gracious in the call the mayor of el paso while saying that would perceive president trump and basically saying that he had <hes> an inherent respect for the office of the presidency presidency was not at all clear that he was looking forward to having him are indeed that he was welcome and i wanna clarify for for the political spin that this is the office of the mayor of el paso in an official capacity welcoming the office of the president of the united states which i consider this my formal duty so it sounds like things were pretty fraud rod before trump even touchdown extremely fraud. You've been very clear that you believe the president is a racist is the president of white supremacist he is. He's he's also made that very clear. He's a work former congressman from el paso who is now running for president did several interviews after the shooting in which he explicitly called <hes> president trump a racist connect the dots about what he's been doing in this country. He's not tolerating racism. He's promoting racism. He's not tolerating violence. He's inciting racism and violence in his country and sad that mr trump had no business coming to el paso and donald trump as not often does counter attack or in twitter. The president tweeting aurora has a phony name to indicate hispanic heritage his name and being quiet o'rourke firing back in a tweet of his own saying twenty. Two people in my hometown are dead. After an act of terror inspired hired by your racism el paso will not be quiet and neither will i. So what does it feel like on the ground there. I'm at the scene of saturday's shooting. The first thing i did this. Morning was to go to the memorial site where there are dozens of people gathered in the heat leaving memorials putting up signs candles balloons tributes to the victims and i spoke there to a woman named rosemary rowe ages <hes> <hes> grandmother that's my age <hes> described herself as a political and social activists. I gotta call that morning <hes> from my granddaughter and she had to family members who were <hes> at the walmart at the time of the shooting that my son and my granddaughter were in the walmart and they they were able to escape through the tire department the granddaughters crew she fed is is still quite traumatized and and get startled if you here's a sounds like he's dropping dropping on the floor so president trump is on his way here. He'll be here in a couple of hours and i wondered whether you think that's a helpful and useful thing for the president to come visit bird. You're not my president to come here and visit as an insult to the people that have separate these tremendous oppressive conditions not not only. Is it an insult to us. We see a miss him coming to bathe in the glory of this bloodbath that his rhetoric has created and i'm i'm telling you right now that he is not welcome here. We don't want him here. His words are empty to us. It's hard to tell the sun. Would you mind by starting running out telling me your name age and where you're from my name's adolfo taos i happen to be chairman of the republican party and el paso county on the other side. I spoke up to a man named. Adolfo is a local public and official and he is a supporter of president trump. Who thinks that it's a good thing that the president president coming here he believes the president has said the right thing is from the in the wake of the shooting. I thought he had some very good remarks and he talked about it. You know it's time for us to come together and heal the end has no problem with the president coming to try to console comfort the city the fact that he's here no paso the fact that he's supporting the people that were hurt who are a lot of hispanics and the fact that he's busy law enforcement because it was a carnage for law enforcement to see that that's going to have an impact on him also so plus the rest of the community. I mean it's positive that is here to let us know that <hes> we've got the white house here to support boorda's in what we need and that's a very positive thing actually while i was interviewing. Adolfo interrupted seems like something's kind of bubbling up over. Where do you have any idea why people arguing you know all of a sudden i started to hear shouting and chanting and i could see that the crowd had sort of condense looks like like a champ has come up in the state troopers arrived so <hes> and when i went over to see what was happening i saw that the crowd had gathered around a woman <hes> i see a woman in a red make-america-great-again hat <hes> who is surrounded by t._v. Cameras and seems very upset. People were shouting at this woman wanted their was profanity. There were exchanges of name calling it was getting really tense and then this guy shows up basically to defend this woman and engage the people who were shouting her down and he's giving right back at the people who are angry at this woman and he is shouting right back at them. People now are calling him a white supremacist and he is defiantly right in the middle of the scrum. The woman actually disappeared from my view and this guy who was quite large and athletic looking was <hes> in shouting matches with multiple people before really storming away in anger and i <hes> sort of chased him down and caught up with your name age agent marie from sean brian. I'm from here for eight and what brought you here today. I've been coming by every morning. I was at the mall. When the whole thing went down <hes> i'm united states marine or retired marine and <hes> i've been wanting to watch. Just take it in not forget it. So what are you finding when you come here. There are a lot of people arguing. Today's the first time i've seen any of that every day i've been here. It's been nice and quiet and peaceful you know clearly. These guys thought that they could believe that girl and they need to start caring for americans. I don't care if you're democrat republican independent black white yellow polkadot. I don't give a shit. You're an american. You're an american. We need to stick together. We need to look out for each other. Clearly people are really on edge. People are really on edge and it feels like there is simmering tension and any kind of spark. Even one make-america-great-again hat can can light the fire and when trump arrives in el paso in the afternoon what happens well. Trump had a pretty low profile arrival here and didn't talk to reporters orders. He went to the medical center here and he met with someone survivors and the hospital staff there. Mr trump then went on. If you a police facility emergency response center <hes> where reporters were allowed in and at that point he made his i direct comments to the press since before he left the white house this morning as you know we left ohio the love the respect respect it was. I wish you could have been in there to see it. I wish you could have been in there and what did he say he. He claimed that the day had been a big success that he had been received with a lot of respect in ohio and the things have been going very well. We met with numerous people off. We met with the doctor the medical staff they have done an incredible job both places just incredible and you know for the moment it seemed as though he was going to play the kind of traditional apolitical role of a president coming to a disaster area or place that have been struck by tragedy but i haven't wishart brown hair while this donald trump and and <hes> although his aides had hoped that he would stay on a pretty tight script today he began to lash out. I turn on the television. Sidelocks was appropriate for the president but cetera et cetera the same old line. They're very dishonest people. That's probably why he got. I think you about zero percents tale as a presidential candidate will be going to see some very good people and he attacked democrats who he felt had been critical of him in ohio including democratic democratic senator sherrod brown also former vice president joe biden who had given us each thing that president trump was sort of a melting racial hatred trade around the country and he keeps them of politicking on a day when he said there should not have been politics and took personal shots at them both so so that was not how things were supposed to go here today but that is <hes> donald trump in the role of president of the united states michael it seems seems clear from that meeting with reporters and from your conversations in el paso that this has not been anything like a traditional additional presidential visit to a city that has undergone a tragedy. No that's absolutely right you know traditional shaped over for generations in which at times of tragedy to the people of the community of littleton. I can only say tonight that the prayers of the american people with you an american president would visit communities that were in the midst of collective grief this morning for the virginia tech community party and it is a day of sadness for our entire nation and act as a kind of consoler. Try to unite tonight. Try to heal your newtown. I come to offer the love and prayers of nation tried to reassure people with with the kind of almost mystical powers of the office and the resources of the federal government and people would hit pause on politics for a day and you must know that whatever measure of comfort we can provide we will provide whatever portion mm-hmm of sadness that we can share with you to ease this heavy load. We will gladly bear you know. Donald trump is not interested in those <hes> ceremonial functions of the presidency. He basically never hits pas on his attack politics politics so we are in a very different place right now and one question is whether we can return from it and at the same time the problem just keeps getting worse. These mass shootings are coming on the heels of mass shootings. That's right and it's not clear that we are closer to any kind of substantive action to address it. Then we were a week ago. President trump did say this this morning that he thought that there might be some action in congress he suggested that it could involve stricter background checks for gun sales but i said things like that before and not followed through and and not much has happened and the republican agenda to address. These shootings is very different from the democratic radic. One democrats think that we need to have sweeping new gun. Control measures and republicans are talking about mental health and even video games and the internet it. It's almost like they're speaking different languages so it's hard to see any kind of solution on the horizon and you know it's terrible to say but it just it just feels like the clock is ticking to the next one of these horrific events <music> <music> <music> michael. Thank you so much <music>. Thank you so much for having me <music> back <music>. The daily is supported by wicks dot com. If you're ready to build your own website go to wicks dot com now to get started for free. Whether you're a business owner or a blogger anyone can create a professional website using wicks you can start building a site from scratch or choose a beautiful template then customize it to look and perform exactly the way you want build a website. You'll be proud of go to wicks dot com slash the daily. That's w i x dot com. Slash the daily and get ten percent off when you're ready to go premium. Here's what else you need to on wednesday puerto rico supreme court through its government into two new turmoil by ruling the island's latest governor was unlawfully sworn it the new governor hedgerow pierre-louis was the handpicked successor of former governor ricardo rosales who resigned amid mass protests over leaked text messages in which rotate tape mocked his own citizens. The court ruled that pure lucy had never been properly confirmed to his last position as puerto rico's the secretary of state making him ineligible to become it's governed. That's it for the day. I'm michael barr. This podcast is supported by neon presenting loose a psychological logical thriller praised as the most provocative film of the twenty nine thousand nine sundance film festival loose is an all-star high school students but when a highly charged conflict arises with his teacher suspicions mount and loyalties are challenged as a community travels with stellar performances from oscar winner octavia spencer. Naomi watts tim roth and calvin harrison junior looses hailed as one of the most astonishing accomplishments in american cinema looses now playing in select cities additional markets throughout august.

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The Supreme Court case you've likely heard zero about (but ought to) ep 230

MEDIA INDIGENA : Indigenous current affairs

37:53 min | 4 months ago

The Supreme Court case you've likely heard zero about (but ought to) ep 230

"Hello I'm Rick Harp from Winnipeg. This is media digital episode thirty. On, this week's indigenous roundtable beyond borders it's the shot that continues to be heard across time and states, and it was about ten years ago that Rick Day satele unlicensed snakes hunter took down in Elkin. What's now called British Columbia. Thus landing himself in provincial court thing is he lives in what's now called Washington state south of a dividing line that does precisely that to ancestral synnex territory. In a moment will revisit the fight for Rights which precede the imposed border between the United States and Canada. But. Just before we do we're thankful for the support that seems to know no boundary those who make discussion possible our patrons on Patriots on patrons who's ranks now include Veronica Zachary Wadia Jessica Alex and loic each now pledging one dollar every month meanwhile Nabeel Mattie Marie Mark West Gina Emory, Aaron Jamie Jeff, and Richard each now pledging five dollars every month plus in now coming in at seven dollars a month while you in Lou and dea each of just signed up at ten dollars. The last but not least Derek now supports us to the tune of forty five dollars each and every month. and. So because of all this new support I am pleased to report that our surge to six hundred supporters campaign is not only met but exceeded its goal. Thanks to everyone who invests what they can into our work. It's your support that keeps this program free for all. And joining me back at the roundtable once again are in Edmonton Kim Talbert associate professor in the Faculty of Native. Studies, at the University of Alberta. Kim. Iraq. And in Vancouver Candice. Collison. Social Professor in the Institute for Critical Indigenous Studies and the Graduate School of journalism at Ub see hey candace haynick longtime no talk. Our topic. This week takes us to aqua-. Where A cross-border court case seemingly has the Canadian government being its collective chances I'm talking about the case of Richard. Diesel tell member of the lakes tribe of the Colville confederated tribes in what's now called the US state of Washington. That's their English name. What they call themselves is tonight's Canada calls them extinct guess someone forgot to tell the snakes. Now longtime listeners of the podcast may recall we discuss his story way back in January of twenty eighteen. Here's how I introduced then to and Fellow Roundtable Ken Williams? An article from the CBC but the headline BC, court rules, and American indigenous man has the right to hunt in Canada. Richard Diesel was charged with violations under BC's Wildlife Act after he shot and killed a cow elk near Castle. Guard be see in twenty ten. He's a member of the lakes tribe in Washington state and he argued that he was simply exercising his constitutional right to hunt for ceremonial purposes. He had been acquitted of the charges last spring but the crown appealed to the Supreme Court arguing that this is not an average person of Canada because the first nation he claims to be a member of was declared extinct by Canada thus no constitutional rate however Justice Robert Sewell dismiss that appeal saying Disa- tells tribe traditionally lived on both sides of the border and thus has deep connections to its territory in Canada. So. There you go. FLASH FORWARD TO TODAY TWENTY twenty we've had a couple of levels of court rule against the crown, and now it's at the Supreme Court of Canada and you know Kim I think this is a perfect story for this time of year because just ahead of Halloween, we have a nation of apparent zombies who've risen from the dead apparently is a spectre haunting Euro Canadians. That'd be a good show. Zombie hunters coming over the border and all these white Canadians freaking out. Did he still honor the treaties with Sambas. Good questions a real lifezette nation. We gotTA to get Jeff Barnaby on this. Exactly. When we talked about this Kim back in January of two thousand eighteen did you think It would come back to our attention. I have to confess I. Forgot we did the story. Oh good and then I re listened to it today and after I read got. Prepared for this recording and I think all the same things I thought then. So I'm glad I. Listen to it. I haven't changed. Well. It's funny candice. When we talked about which story we're going to do this episode Kim was enthusiastic about it because she's like sure do this since I want some rights. And I'm wondering how optimistic she should be but I. I also want to say you know unlike our previous look at this story, we did not have the benefit of someone like you someone based in what's currently called BC so I'm very pleased to draw on your perspective especially to fill in any gaps Kim cannon I may have left in our first go round. So I'm wondering what's top of mind for you with this particular story while the lack of trees right I mean this might have been resolved had treaties been established a probably wouldn't have been resolved favorably necessarily because I'm thinking about ease what's going on with lobster be Exactly. Yeah. I mean there's still as we mentioned a short memory. Yeah. So that's one thing to think about the other is that this situation that is confronting the snakes is really quite similar in this whole area. So my partner is from the intercut nation, which is just to the west and they have a slightly different problem right there from A. Area that straddles the border. But around the time when colonial powers were dividing up the land they were in would have been their summer area. So in the northern part of their traditional area, and so they were really cut off from the southern part of their area, but it gets really interesting right because when the Seattle light and power wanted to build a dam in a particular they went to what they thought were the local indigenous people inside. You know we're GonNa do this to the land. The elders there said, no, this is into cummock territory there north of the border now. So Seattle light and power set aside money in compensation for this flooding which still sits. In the US side of the border and the public nation needs to claim it. But the public nation was actually divided into fifteen different bands by the Canadian government and nobody holds that title necessarily to be able to claim the money. So it's it's really interesting to me that this is sort of a situation that confronts many nations in a way that's different than say the Acoustic community in the East right? So I think all along the border, you see these kinds of examples of. How you sort of colonial power upon colonial power, this really messes with traditional practices. So so the other way I think about it is, as you know somebody from community where the mouth of our river is actually in southeast. Alaska. The clinking who live there the wrangle clink it they regularly came up to Telegraph Creek like four hundred miles up this too keen river. We had very close relations with them. We were intermarried with them. You know the the town that my father is from was both Tan and at might dad has tell Tynan clink at name like our relations. Before Confederation were actually very well established and and I think that the the law as we know it. Now from the Canadian government, the US government, they really don't have frameworks understand these really longstanding relations and sharing of lands and rivers. These concepts are lost on them. Exactly yeah. There's there's sort of incommensurate. Between these, the way that property law kind of gets elaborated and and you know as enshrined in constitutions, etc. I think that's really also at the heart of this case is really very difficult to to understand that connection that persists right that between land between people between their waters. So Kim something we didn't really get into in our in our first kick at the cat. So to speak was the the way the crown tried to make its case, and there's a really strong set of articles one in the Washington Post and one in the spokesman review and I want to quote from from the Washington Post About the twenty-seven teen ruling by British Columbia Provincial Court, Judge Lisa Moore's INSKEEP. And during that contestation. The crown said digitel failed to prove that the next tradition of hunting before contact was carried out by its modern day successor. Group. A test for establishing a right under Canadian law. So what does that mean? Does that mean like they used guns and they didn't wear like bucks I don't know what that means. In other words. The snakes were according to Canada unable to prove to candidates satisfaction that there was continuity of what they did before contact and after contact with that leaves out conveniently. A Lot. Like as the crown saying they're not hunting traditionally or are they saying they didn't onto that place before or there probably saying those things but they're also saying they stopped hunting. Yeah. Yeah. But they were forced out right? That's what I wanted you to seize on. Trying to sorry. So. No it's so obvious I'm not even sure like. What I'm supposed to say it's so obvious, right? This this is one of those funny times that you're trying to explain Canada's logic settler colonial logic and it's like wait a minute. Did they say what I think they said? So help me out here can. Only. So this is actually related to the discussions we've had around fishing, right so what the BBC Court of Appeal relied upon was this decision known as the vendor decision for which there is now the vendor Vanderbeek test. So the vendor vanderbeek decision is a named after a woman named Dorothy Vander Pete, who is a member of the Stalin Nation here in southern BC, and so she was charged with selling salmon. that have been caught with a food fishing license, and so this is a really actually quite recent cases from nineteen ninety-six. And what was argued was that it was actually part of her right to sell fish because this has been a customer tradition that was. Central and significant, and there was a continuity of it, and so that becomes the basis upon which sorts of rights and practices sort of get tested underneath this kind of a ruling. So you know did there's like a whole checklist to. In a was it significant have they continued doing it over time? Did it exist prior to contact rate like there's this checklist is like Ten or twelve points to it. So so that's really what they were looking at when they were looking at whether the snakes sort of qualify under that, and of course, with the Canadian government has said is well, you know they're not in Canada. So this shouldn't apply, but that was what the Court of Appeal decided to rule in favor of the snakes was about that and so candidate in BC have appealed it isn't that interesting I mean who gets to set up the test who gets to decide if the test was passed and you almost have to combine the Washington Post article with the spokesman review to get to get a full picture in the Washington Post. Reporter goes on to say Crown prosecutors argued that they voluntarily that is the next drifted from their northern territory and traditional practices there. But the but the helpful piece of context at the spokesman review sticks in talks about how tensions in the region date back to at least eighteen eleven when the British explorer David Thompson encountered members of the band while passing through the Air Oh. They mounted through the nineteenth century as many of the snakes people who survived colonization where pushed from their homelands south to the Coleville registration a little. You know little bit of helpful context that I'm. That I'm sure Canada just you know accidentally overlooked. It's super interesting to me like because I don't know if you guys learned this in the rest of the country but you know this whole fifty, four forty or fight in the end the the tussle between the breads and the US over where the border would land out here between Washington and Oregon, and you know some of the proposals had the border all the way up you know up in our territory in northern BC at. Where the border landed is something we learn about in our textbooks from very young ages, but we never learn about this kind of thing. It's it's really fascinating to me that it's. It's only when these court cases come out it becomes really clear that indigenous people were forced to make choices or pushed one side or the other, and yet there's just so much of course written about how the settlers sorted out. Fascinating not in a good way. Yeah. That were. Can't stand words like drifted like leaves drift in the wind. You. Know he humans actually make some decisions. Drifted. Yeah the holy it's it's fast. I mean all of the language is completely lacking in responsibility on the part of colonial powers and also dismissing any kind of agency towards survival on the part of a of indigenous people. And can't ask a question to this is. Why did they call it? The Crown? Queen. But she's not around like I. Don't get it her silicon a Canada. It does that mean like that means like the Federal Court it means that the Canadian government in this kind of honorific way I don't because it the the honor of the crown. Candidates supposed to uphold it. It's his. Dock is up to how you say that word Senator Uh connecting you mean like when something stands in Yes yes. That Sin Activity Act Sonic Deke as. We. That was that was that was an ignorant American question. It doesn't make any sense to me why a anyway. Sorry. Get why you call it the crown. Oh I. Don't think you'd be the last person to. To you know I mean it's a it's a metaphor I? Guess. Is. Meant to impart heft or something Oh. Okay. Yeah. And it's used all kinds of things. Right crown. Corporation crown land. anything that's owned by the government but that really means federal. Yeah. It really means federal. Okay. His 'cause she's kind of well no but I mean they they're kind of booted out right? Like they don't have any aren't they kind of booted out now I mean they don't really have any power so I don't get it. Figurehead. Although they are on all the money side Anna. If if if you were if you had a push a referendum to formally. Disabused Canada the monarchy. You wouldn't well I heard I have to pledge allegiance to the Queen when I take citizenship. I think. So if I don't come at some crime and I get it. But but indigenous peoples looked to the queen look to the crown because treaties were signed with Britain and that's an okay. Yes. Oh, and so a Theresa Spence put up her t p. near Parliament. She wanted to speak to the represented representative of the Queen Right who is the Governor General? Yeah yeah I I may not. I might have to live here till I'm eighty before I have any kind of understanding of what's going on up here I did this doesn't make sense to me. She still considered the queen of candidate now, just to get back mean something I like to do because, I, think it's instructive and potentially genitive is to take concepts that are normally not applied to this part of the world that are usually spoken of an international relations and put them into the Canadian context in part because I mean. Canada's massive like you could squeeze in a large number of of European countries into Canada. So it's It's a big space, and so you know our cap talks about sixty distinct indigenous peoples that is to say mutually unintelligible languages occupying distinct portions of what we now call candidate I mean it's an international space. So I, think it's appropriate especially if we're talking about indigenous self-determination to to see it through that Lens and so how can we don't talk about what happened to the snakes who were? Pushed south at why don't we frame it is forced migration does what we would call it today I mean they're essentially refugees fleeing terrorism. It's a diaspora and all of these concepts I think are legitimately or at least you know. Genitive as I, say in looking at the situation. They drifted rick. They slept on a massive banana. Landed on their asses in Washington. Yeah. But the drifter metaphor though it, it works in some ways with colonial representations of these nomads who didn't have home anyway anywhere. anyways. So we'll just you know accept wherever they landed like it fits with the the broader Nara. That's true too right. If it's forced migration, it's like people who were people in had to make decisions in the face of. Right while I was thinking a lot of the legal language that's being over viewed in these articles It's like old school salvage anthropology like the legal system is like still doing anthropology like they did in the thirties. Fascinated L. like they were all like these cavemen who lost their culture and they were culturally on evolved and they couldn't survive in the face of greater civilization like it's all kind of cultural evolution and native people were on the uncivilized losing side versus any kind of direct oppression and dispossession and genocide etcetera that the state actually did. Well, it's not it right? Like we we've lost or we're losing our languages they're dying and other people rightly said, no, they've been murdered. They've been systematically targeted. This is not you know you often hear well, it's a tragedy, not a crime and Right and and this test is van repeat test. Let's maybe we should call it the extinction test. And you got ninety minutes to prove you're not extinct if not see you later son like it's just extinct. Or some people have called it you know administrative genocide right genocide through technocracy. We. I spoke of the honor the crown. I. Mean The honor the crown is supposed to be this expansive. Spirit of treaties between two self determining entities anyway I did want to share though some of the language that BC. Provincial Court Judge Lisa Marzuki wrote in her twenty seven teen ruling because I found it unusually decent. quote whether or not the. So nights or lakes tribe as they're known, utilize their traditional territory north of the forty ninth parallel. After the nineteen thirties I am left with no doubt that the land was not forgotten that the traditions were not forgotten and that the connection to the land is ever present in the minds of the members of the lakes tribe and Lemme append to that some equally decent language. by of Appeal Justice Daphne Smith in a twenty nineteen ruling it may be coincidence that they're both women but in any case she wrote imposing a requirement that indigenous peoples may only hold aboriginal rights in Canada if they occupy the same geographical territory in which their ancestors exercise, those rights ignores the aboriginal perspective, the realities of colonization and does little towards achieving the ultimate goal of reconciliation. Unquote. Man The feds are gonNA or the crown may is gonNA regret ever bringing up the idea of reconciliation. candace how would you assess that language knowing what you know about? How Justice of written about indigenous rights before? Yeah. That's a long ways from the BBC, court of Appeal decisions around Doug Mook. The Catherine's. Where he he actually quoted Hobbs indigenous people have have lives that are nasty, brutish and short. you know. So this is a pretty elegant way of talking about you know continuing connection to to lands and and you know memories that that last many generations despite separation. To me it's it's a beautiful decision and not surprising obviously that the government would decide to appeal it. Because there are so many ramifications because like I said that there's so many nations that would be affected through this whole court or where the US in Canadian border. Divides. and. Then we could start looking at northern borders. There's a there are sort of a lot of a lot of knock on. Effects to this decision actually being upheld by the Supreme Court it'll be really interesting to see what the decision is but at least it really also shows that they were listening to the Senate Straight all the quotes that I've read in the stories we read for today or are actually quite elegant in the same way talking about how they sent this man who's at the center of the store he was actually sent at least one of the stories it says he was sent by his community to you know hunt and then call it in. The absolutely went. Into this with eyes open and sort of saying we're GONNA. We're GONNA have this fight So to me, it's really powerful and there seems like there were a lot of other indigenous people from surrounding nations and maybe elsewhere who also did briefs to the court to support their claims. And as I noted at the START I think Canada really is themselves. Or itself. I don't know how to Pronoun that but anyway. That, this is going to quote unquote opened the floodgates that we're going to see other cross-border indigenous peoples. Taking into account that the reserves and reservations aren't our traditional territories as Ken Williams rightly pointed out in our first a discussion about this and that this this could. This case. Feel so huge and again has relevance to what's going on right now out east why do you think we're not hearing more about it? What Are we hearing about? Like in see I've been watching mainstream can news are they just like? Sitting there still focus too much on the US presidential election and not their own issues. It's true. There's limited oxygen a`mainstreaming media is, but this just feels like this is so pertinent. Yeah. No it is, and as I was reading all of the articles I was thinking I mean you know how? Like you know something but then you have an Aha moment where you realize that even more, this is really This story. For, some reason for me even more than the lobster fishery right now I think because we haven't been hearing as much about the cross border issues there. But the story is really driving home the sort of way in which these nation state borders are. Actually quite tenuous there historically tenuous there are there are ethically. Is that the right word tenuous ethically tenuous and practically tenuous, and that's why nation states are. Always you know twenty four, seven pumping out the indoctrination about the business of the state's right to the. That it is that it is this like. Entity that will always exist that that naturally exists. They'll go back in time even before these nation states were confederated or established as nation states and speak about the land as Canada or the US I mean it's just completely flies in the face of facts and they do it every day all day because they have to. Because in fact, you know there is indigenous sovereignty preceding both of these nation states. and they have to keep beating at back. So I think this is so interesting like with the the non factual language of extinction. That's just not a fact right so that one of the one of these articles that we read said the snakes are quote not an aboriginal people of Canada. No, that's right. They're not. That's what aboriginal indigenous means they precede Canada like do they hear what they're saying? It's really and they keep on insisting on the odds the UPS, right? Yeah or the APOSTROPHE S. as the case may be yeah, and then the the recourse to tradition, right? So which is you know many people have have criticises. So I was saying you know is bad as anthropology as there's a vibrant conversation and anthropology about getting away from these old school weird nonscientific notions that indigenous peoples were less evolved that they just disappeared with the ravages of civilization all this kind of thing whereas it seems like it's still very much a part of the the non facts that the law is is relying on of course, they have to rely on it or their legitimacy is undermined. Will you just made me think BC has different density of population within its borders correct. In fact, there are some portions of BC that probably have almost nobody using the logic you just criticized can claim it. Why there's nobody living there is anybody using it how so Crown land. Over there's the crown again. You know I just want to highlight the focus. It's so good It's from the Washington, Post quotes Boyd a member of the lakes tribe. who says she's descended from the snakes she remembers what it was like as a young girl to learn that. Canada. considered her quote unquote extinct. She says, I thought that doesn't make sense. That's what happens to dinosaurs as what happens to animals reality is that we weren't thought of as human. You're not just treated as if you're less than, you're actually declared nothing and to me. The thing that just screamed out is. This is a case of colonial arrogance coming back to haunt settlers state because we as indigenous people, we're not supposed to be here. They wrote us off as some weird and waning race and guess what years we never went anywhere and you are wishing it otherwise didn't make it. So Yup, and now they have to come up with all this really creative language. Yes. To, try to convince us all that the thing happened that they were certain what happened but didn't happen. You gotTA hand it to them like they're very tenacious. That the right word. Tenuous too. Tenuous intonations. Post you ass-, and we it does become a problem when they use these laws. Leg Van repeats to create criteria for continuity right this this bizzare real ongoing challenges that you're constantly held up to these tests that are established in specific cases or you know sort of elaborated from them and and going forward as communities we expect to evolve. Right so it isn't just that. Extinction is. One of the challenges the other is, how do we begin to think about our evolution as people and that to me? That's also the the big question here is not just that we survived that we continue to. To change and adapt, and as we face more and more ecological changes related to climate change, this has been going to become more of a question right again, it just shows to me that you know Canada's Notwithstanding what it says, it's operative. Definition of reconciliation his reconciling. The, hollowing out of indigenous self-determination to reconcile with Canada's assertion of complete control. It is not about Canada reconciling itself to the going fact of indigenous persistence. Or? Taxi. Yes I mean. This is Ecological changes really important here to right. So this is what I. Think is also challenging all of these artificial recent. However. You want to describe them borders that we have is that the you know as you know ecological changes that actually throws some of this. Border discussion into question as well and and rights and resources in air quotes rights because I think. The one thing that indigenous cultures always had going for them is that they were highly adaptive. They're highly adoptive to change, and the way that the nation state has set itself up on top of our highly adaptive cultures is not very adopted right in the end to me. That's always what's at issue when we talk about. Indigenous people adapting to climate change is often the imposition of colonial infrastructure. That's the problem. Not Not word they're living or their lands even ecological changes themselves it's it's dealing with the infrastructure is that have been put in place that have pushed people into? A corner metaphorically. That's interesting because the fluidity and flexibility also applies to changes in flora and fauna right which is happening as a result of climate change like trees are moving northward. So to speak right animal migration patterns are changing and this actually segues Nicely into a question I had that I want to raise with both of you I mean. We have these borders manmade imposed reapplied ideas on the landscape but I'm wondering I mean at the heart of this case, the days tell case is the hunting of an elk at the heart of Marshall, which was the case out east, which under girded the right of of Megan, how the treaty right to to to catch lobster I mean. The seller way to look at this. Is through through a political geographic lintz geopolitical lens but wouldn't indigenous understanding see the right in here. In. The fauna itself like another words the right in here's in the in the oak the right in here's in the lobster and wherever they may go. So to speak. So the borders irrelevant in other words. Oh and it's the relationship between the people and the and the non human persons that they're. Eating. Exactly. The is based on a relationship relationship is based on. On the behavior right. Well this gets back away from those kind of property claims being yes. Salvaged upon the land. Yeah. was there some language in in these decisions about hunting for ceremony is it only supposed to be ceremonial? Or did I was that that I missed that misread that there are some situations where it is just meant to be for sustenance, we only get to be barely alive. Up or ceremonial purposes. Yes. Yeah, that's the salmon. Steph has all come like made that progression. So the spare case was seen to apply to food fishery. So just what you're fishing to consume yourself and then the vendor p case was the next one in it's. Meant to cover commercial fish to some extent at least allow for the selling of of fish. But you have to you have to prove that was your practice. We're discussing this case with my sister who's a lawyer shoes like this is actually not a great decision because you know again, it's back to the evolution aspect. Maybe you didn't you may be kept proved that you sold this kind of thing in your. Pre conteder becomes hard to prove but you do now in it's become part of your livelihood or your you know. There's there's such a a static nece to the way that indigenous culture practices have been. Enshrined in these cases. and you know there's there's some movement in some interpretation the fact that they drew on it in a dynamic way to make a decision in the. Case is one example of being interpreted rather flexibly, but it could be interpreted the other way by another judge. Now I have a question, possibly a dumb one But before I ask it we've been at this a long time and I'm thinking we could keep going I still have many things to. To say inquire about how about you to What if they said? No. We're done here we are. So I'm always happy to shoot the shit. I've got more shooting. So I just don't do it on the wrong side of the border. You're like with this this whole. It's just like white people I remember George Bush they win time I'm the decider white people just think they're deciders all the time like as somebody died that guy. Just. Totally Irrational. What okay, it sounds like. Notwithstanding your your Josephine, you are willing to to come back and do a part two of this. Absolutely. If you have some great great questions wreck when do I not when? Yeah, I know you`re Okay. We'll be back with part two of this discussion about. The fate of the same. Rate to hunt on either side of the Canadian US border. Stick around folks. Lots more to say lots more. Tissue. I'm going to rename the show media digital indigenous shooting. That's it for media and digital episode two, hundred and thirty recorded the afternoon if October Sixteenth two, thousand and twenty. Thanks again to Kim. Tall bear associate professor in the Faculty of Native. Studies at the University of. And Canada Research Chair in Indigenous Peoples Techno Science and environment. Thanks as well to cameras collison associate professor in the Institute for Critical Indigenous Studies and the Graduate School of journalism at you beat see. This program was edited by Stephanie would and meet your host and producer Rick. Thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again soon. Theme is nesting by bureaucratic.

Canada. United States BC Kim Talbert Canadian government Supreme Court Washington Post Washington Institute for Critical Indigen Ken Williams Washington Collison Rick Day Vancouver associate professor Faculty of Native CBC Edmonton Winnipeg
A Rapid Rona Rundown (Ep. 203)

MEDIA INDIGENA : Indigenous current affairs

51:39 min | 11 months ago

A Rapid Rona Rundown (Ep. 203)

"Loom recovered from Winnipeg media indigenous episode. Two three on this week's roundtable corona check in so as regular listeners. Now the last couple of episodes have been dedicated to what we might call outside. Voices means we've yet to hear from any of our regulars on life under covert nineteen which makes me especially happy then to reconnect with brock and Ken practically a month since our last round table to see how they're faring and what's been on their radar late but just before we hear from them. Let's hear about those who power this podcast. Our patrons on Patriae on patrons like Miriam. Who's new fifty dollar monthly? Pledge comes with this message. Thank you for your work. It's important and valuable and it's more important than ever to support independent media. I hope all the team is doing well in these trying times for also pleased to tell you about Margaret's two hundred dollar contribution via check. This is actually her second time supporting us in this manner. She does it. She says because media indigenous is always enlightening. Well let me just say that we find support like yours and Mariam's to always be inspiring. Thanks to you thanks to everyone who invest what they can in our work and back at the round table this week are in Edmonton Ken Williams Assistant Professor with the University of Obama's Department of drama. Hello Ken Hey Rick Hey Brock and McDougall Ontario. It's associate professor of indigenous studies at York University. Brooke pit a one acquired Brock Caloric Ken so we are all at home like so. Many people are in fact. So is everybody else in our respective domiciles so if you hear a lot of background noise well just like that beeping. Their you'll know why this has been a month in fact the last time the three of us met to speak it was March first twenty nine days ago. Today's March thirtieth and as we know things change constantly on the fly. And it's really our first chance to kind of check in and and For me also to I suppose Relatively speaking commiserate The we had talked about not not so long ago. How exciting it was that we were all going to be gathered at the Native American Indigenous Studies Association Conference. I was coming up this summer. or late late Spring and. May and that is well. Let's cancel like so many other gatherings so for example gathering of nations That's one the bigger high profile cancellations truly massive Powell in New Mexico every year draws thousands upon thousands of folks so I just WanNa know what what it's been like for each of you these past like I say twenty nine days brock. Let's start with you. I guess the thing that stands out is the academic calendar really got thrown up in the air for the last few weeks. And I I'm sure can can relate in terms of The shift of moving things online and I think the uncertainty. I teach first year university as well. So many of my students are already coping with their first time getting ready for end of year. Final exams and final assignments and it's been pretty unsettling for them and and the part that I'm sure anyone can relate to is just that it's like every few hours what the situation wherein seems to shift again so I on a Monday. I'd be told that the libraries were closed to anyone but students than the very next day. The Premier of Ontario announces all libraries are close as an emergency measure and so I have students attempting to do take him. You know take home exams which were scheduled until the the university itself started to shut down and then final papers and so in one instance with the introductory course. I just had to throw up my hands and say that's it we're done. We're just going off. The assignments students had already completed to that point. So I think that's been one of the most difficult aspects of trying to keep seventy students in three different courses from feeling like they're in their academic careers in in jeopardy so that in terms of my work that's been by far the biggest disruption it is surreal though our offices are shut down like. I'm thinking it's the same for Ken. Now is campus completely close. We're not even allowed on campus anymore. It is also surreal here at the University of Alberta. Because again like you said there's been this sort of constantly changing and of course. I'm not blaming the administrators for this but the administration is trying to tap dances. Well as it can. Under these circumstances the two biggest upheavals we had on top of everything else. Were campuses are being restricted access? And all that kind of stuff is One the administration came up with a new grading scheme that was met Not Very favorably by a lot of people. They took away the letter grades and said from now for the rest of the term. You'll while for the for the for the term the winter twenty twenty terms specifically you will great credit. No credit or incomplete. Yeah that was kind of met with what I understand why they did it. They were trying to be fair because there was no guarantee everyone could complete their courses. There's no guarantee everyone can attend exams because the other BIG UPHEAVAL. That happened That caught me have caught. A lot of people by surprise is The the told the students in residence that they had to go home. They had to vacate the student university residences and gave him four days to do it now. They did say that if you were in. If you could not find the means to get home that you could stay in the residence. But what they were trying to do was in Sort of the residences as their as their as their situated now are basically an incubator for a vector for for Cova nineteen so they were trying to encourage spacing so they tried to clean up the residences as much as possible but that meant a lot of international students suddenly had to find a way home with all this incredibly restricted travel. And I know have like at least a third of my students are international. And I don't know how many were in the residences but I know a fair chunk of them work. It's really you know for Damn. I'm I'm really worried how they're handling this because some might be going home thinking that they're year has been shot Because again the whole grading system has while I understand why the administration didn't I believe it's fair It has not been has not been ruled out as clearly as it possibly could have So it's been causing a lot of anxiety for both students and staff at our university concern. You know that's just the two of the things we're dealing with on top of everything else right and wasn't there Recent cuts to the U. Of as well all hell yeah. That's pre all of this so top of that. The university asked if They have a flexible budget During this crisis and the provincial government refused so we're probably we're looking at losing a thousand people at the well during this time right exactly during this time and we're not the only ones getting hit like this like the education assistance and substitute teachers in the you know. The primary and secondary school system were all just Let go by the province on Saturday. Wasn't that when the announcement was over the weekend on Saturday so they're expecting twenty thousand layoffs. Wow okay yeah. And people have to somehow COPA thing uncertainty and the anxiety That's been amplified to even more. There's one class that just can't be taught remotely it's on the. It's improvisation and acting. Classes requires requires you to work as a group requested. Worked together requires you to present to perform in front of a group. The class in itself is over. But I'M GONNA maintain class time remotely if you ever just need to reach out. I've got a lot of stress students like they're really stressed out. Clearly there is a a new normal so to speak. You know we've been here at media digital trying to keep up with it all as much as we can without getting overwhelmed. I I have to confess like I've I've been up till two or three. Am every night either. Just you know glued to a screen of some kind or just you know trying to digest the enormity of it all Unsuccessfully but in case we have decided to to dedicate the last couple of episodes to various perspectives on corona and. I'm wondering if Bracha let's start with you. I mean what may have stood out for you. From from those two episodes the first one was with a couple of physicians Digits Physicians from the University of Toronto. And of course the most recent episode the indigenous historian Mary Jane McCallum just wondering what struck you in their conversations. I think the know this was the one that was furthest back. But the one you did with the the two medical doctors I think the message that came through pretty clearly from both of them the importance of preparation but without panic like that seemed to be the main message coming from them in terms of the and also being able to distinguish between people who are in leadership roles like community leaders for instance and then -portant for them to stay vigilant but also for the general public to kind of avoid. What you just described rick in terms of being up till two in the morning on on media has essentially that is not the recommended coping mechanism. So that part stands out well. Well it's tough right because part of what I see as the of the Center. Prizes to stay on top of things but it's a hazard so fair enough. How but you can what What kinds of things Caught your ear. As it were from the last couple of episodes it was a few things but one thing that really struck me was when you talk to Mary Jane McCallum was when she was referencing the loss of land due to the nineteen eighteen nineteen nineteen flu pandemic. 'cause it came back to me. I did land claims research right out of university and I remember going through records but help a lot of Alberta reserves reduced sometimes down to eleven people And then the government used that took advantage of that to forcibly combined populations from one reserves to another. So this president's in that you know 'cause it was it was in reference to with a certain amount of an nothing this to be. You know to be dismissive. But there was a certain bravado on social media but the resilience of Indigenous People. We should be very careful with that bravado because moments like this is where we can take advantage of because we were weakened and we're already in a reconstruct with not enough housing. Obviously water obviously Other infrastructures at that lead to like the social determinants of Health Always put a disadvantage that way so as a group were like a vulnerable state right now and that vulnerability tends to get exploited. And I and I was going. Yeah you know she's right. I remember reading those records and looking at all these old reserves that were suddenly just vacated during that pandemic Early part of the twentieth century. I'm sensing that both of you have been kind of watching. What may be trending as it were in terms of native twitter as some call. It apparently not as feverishly as me but What trends have you noted on social media in terms of indigenous responses in terms of Community efforts for example. I am noting a lot of communities have effectively To the extent that they can Sealed off their their border as it were. Yeah that's probably the smart thing as much as they can do it I know there was an incident involving. Can't remember the exact town in southern Saskatchewan where an ad is just woman who's trying to go to walmarts and she was buying for community members so she was estimated estimate. I think she's buying for over fifteen elders but she was trying to buy them all at once. Yeah she was trying to buy for you know. Then the conflict runs in right The needs of the various communities. In how can you serve them? So this is again. The vulnerability of indigenous people as group. You know these elders themselves can't go to the walmarts and so one person nor are the few people with vehicles who have who can do it. Look like they're hoarding. Yeah right they look. They look like they're overbuying and star manager goes. Who am I going to serve more than you know? Who Am I gonNA serve your by local community or your community right so that was the thing that trying to quite quite quickly. Well that's what I was unclear about. Was that ever validated or verified that that because what's been reputed or alleged. Sorry say yeah is is that some comment was made by a manager to the effect of. Yeah I'M GONNA prioritize people in Estevan over people outside of Estevan and some people thought they interpreted. That is racially coded. Yeah that's that's what. That's exactly how that was interpreted as as racially coating. And whether you know see this is the thing where it's all lake secondhand reporting on liked it wasn't I it. It came across at first as we don't serve Indians here right. That's the initial Horror and anger that was expressed But I think it was. The wording that you know is that the whole word but communities that communities cheese saying. I'm trying to serve my community. I'm the one person could do this. And the manager goes well. I got to serve my community too. And you're buying too much so this is where you could get that doubling up right in because everyone is stressed. Everything's a higher state of the fuel. Supply is critical. And if they can't get that supply They stress right. It's it's a pretty common reaction so to put it out there. It could have been a reasonable reaction from the manager. But you know in terms of what's stressing the people who have the stock the shelves in run those stores. They overly react to someone trying to do a good thing for their community and then it comes off a racial response we're both you're both scheduling boys quote unquote. Maybe you'll know the answer to this as as to van kind of one of those communities that surrounded by a number of first nations in other words a border town as it were. Yep So in other words. Esther van is where it's at because of this market. I mean it's it's such a weird time to to assert this distinction especially I saw something I saw was almost the opposite. Wha falen Johnson Indigenous podcast or does the secret life of Canada for CBC. She tweeted out. Many reserves are closing off to prevent the spread of covert nineteen. This has sparked racism from non community members who want cheap smokes in gas. If this was Americans coming into Canada's so many people would be losing their we are nations so Estevan can say no. No No estimators I but I can say you know what it'd be like. When when the roles are reversed it's not allowed. Meanwhile right just a trudeau is is closing the border to asylum seekers which I thought was illegal using covert as a cover. Some would say anyway interesting interesting when the moccasins on the other foot. Bronco what I kind of think back to the point that Ken brought up from Mary. Jane McCallum's talk with you last week. Rick was that the idea of like the vulnerability that comes from a crisis like this. I think that extends Obviously looking at indigenous people but also to the general population and I. I'm looking at these emergency measures that are being brought in by different governments kind of in disbelief. Like the whether it's these massive injections of money into financial markets to prop up companies. Yup I. I don't know I I mean at at what point were really going to be able to slow this down and analyze. What's going on like the the one measure that did catch people's attention? I think it was in three states. no West Virginia was one of them. I forget the others might have been Montana North Dakota but there were three states that Brought in measures in the last week or so banning fossil fuel protests to try to avert a future no-doubt apple Or standing rock. Yeah Ending Rock type. Action criminalising dissent. Yeah exactly and not my concern. I was GONNA say fear. My concern is that this is actually happening. All over the place and you. I'm sure you're familiar with the author Klein she wrote an incredible book that I read several years ago called the shock doctrine and I know she's been circulating. There's a video kind of an updated version talking about how those same tactics are going to be used by you know sort of corporate powers and by governments in in any sort of crisis to try to push forward their agenda that they tend to be the most Most prepared the best organized to try to push their agenda forward forward when there's a crisis and so I think there's going to be like it's kind of like to your point rick about like feeling in some ways. The need to be hyper vigilant. I feel that too and I have been certainly watching the media and again kind of in disbelief. I think this was another point. That you brought up as well speaking with I think it was with Mary. Jane Just about some of the measures that are being brought in and how all of a sudden billions of dollars are being found out it was specifically talking about homelessness. Yup and how suddenly when it's perceived as a threat to the general public. Yeah then suddenly okay. We're GONNA solve Homelessness now whereas there was no political will. It would seem to do that three months ago. Now what's changed Now and the perception of that at least themselves may be vulnerable and as we know in the prairie cities indigenous people make significant proportions of the the UNE housed. If you will opt to a third I think in Edmonton is one count I saw and again. It's only to the extent that it benefits the dominant population that this is forthcoming. Yeah it's it's pretty bad. It's pretty bad. The Canadian government has been announcing steady stream of measures financial measures to help businesses to help workers It keeps changing every day. And and sometimes it's money sometimes. It's like oh no no. We're just GONNA add more money to that other money. We talked about before but what that reminds me of is And this is something we tweeted out on media and digital is at infamous quote from Global News reporter You Brock. You talk about these literally billions of dollars of money. That's just flowing to employers to Canadians at large. And I I don't know folks remember Specifically or not but jug meet seeing the leader of the. Mvp during the election was asked by a reporter on a reserve in Jug. You'd sing was promising You know he's going to get the job done when it comes to limiting boil water advisories. Not just talk about it. He was asked. Are you just writing a blank check for all problems for all indigenous communities across the country once you get into office? Are you just writing a blank check for all problems for all these communities across the country once you get into office? What I'm saying and people will look at it and go. How much money are we going to spend on all this as a genuine question? Would you be us this question in Vancouver do not drinking water would you be asking this question of Edmonton Drinking Water? No you wouldn't massive. I'm seeing and it's like there's ever a time. The blank checks being strewn across the land. It is now And of course Sing responded and then the follow up question was is a lot of money is what I'm saying. Talk about something not aging. Well right Holy again another example of how okay. The political will is suddenly found. Yeah what's the difference Oh settler lives are at stake Now I see I have to say it has crossed my mind that Wow all of a sudden we're all Indians now. The new normal is the longstanding native normal. Right I mean I saw a report from global news three days ago quote. The Corona virus pandemic sweeping the globe could send the Canadian rates soaring to fifteen percent by the end of the year. A new forecast by the parliamentary budget. Watchdog suggests unemployment on reserve is like twenty five percent before the virus and it has been so for years and years off reserve. It's not necessarily a much better. There was a pretty I thought insightful op. Ed published On the twenty seventh by Genus Star Blanket in Dallas Hunt. Couple of dishes professors. The it was Op Ed piece called indigenous communities and covert nineteen. The virus may not discriminate but responses to do Here's a quote that they cited after the federal government announced the stimulus package. Three hundred million dollars for the immediate needs of anyway. T in first nations communities chief Marie and day Walker Peltier of Okinawa First Nation Treaty. Four recently remarked quote. Now we understand. This is a good thing but it's only going to start in May. So what about the next four to six weeks? What do we do on quote? Yikes and I mean. I don't know if that's a lag or a staggered rollout. That is unique to this money. Or if it's across the board I know that there's a lot of challenges administratively to getting money out the door but wow again talking about equity and inequity I mean. If you're you don't have the room you don't have the tools right. I mean first. Nations are not allowed to run OR INCUR DEBT. Their junior subordinate orders of government municipalities. They also were given quote unquote permission to delay the elections. All what did you think okay for. Those who are new to it can lay out the play out the background of this. This is this to me tells you everything you need to know about. The State of First Nations Governance in Twenty Twenty Yep the in order for any first nation to receive its funding agreements. Keep going they have to have a a workable government but the workable gums kind of is defined by the Indian Act. Right Now. I'm not excluding custom councils but they also have to have a regular reelection every every reserve has to have a regular election and we're coming into the two year end of the two or three or cycle depending on your first nation just serve. This candidate said note. You have a while ago that they have since reversed but there's all this pressure going you have to run your election. As per the guidelines we set out it was like the bureaucracy was not listening to reality and this is kind of again if someone wants to know. Just how much of a bureaucracy? How much taxpayer dollars are actually going? It's just wanted to take a real good look. All these first nations were protesting saying we can't run an election during a pandemic. You're you're trying to get us all self isolate but then you're trying to tell us all gathered together in a vote you know. I genuinely believe there's like this was out of genuine concern for the citizens of each of each reserve because you're just telling these first nations to violate all the health regulations advice that you've been talking telling you know telling Canadians to follow. Yeah thankfully the actually came down from the minister. Actually at the state look you. Can you can delay the elections until we're out of this crisis but until like I think last week I know my reserve is still plan to have an election and there were there were there. Were kind of panicked about it. I to me. It's just staggering. In fact it's grotesque. I mean everyone complains about a first nations veto clearly. The the Minister of Indian Affairs has veto yet and and decided to exercise it right. Yeah so much for self-determination first nations were at the mercy of Mark Miller For better for worse. Yep Oh that was A. We should credit though Maggie Wendy and Pam Palme. D'or both lawyers both. Who called this out on twitter and really carry the torch for this. Put this put this forward as as a grotesque situation so my broken record is but how systems are delivering. What they're designed to deliver right. There's great set of memes of their course. Yes not extensive analysis with sometimes a single line can expose for the flaws. Exist right yeah. One of them is What we just give back and tax all those corporations pay the past ten years you know to help bail them out or you know socialism Every company is a socialist all of a sudden when we get to these circumstances. Why are we bailing them out? And just not putting the money directly towards the workers. It's quite funny again. You look where people are. GonNa talk about after this like. Oh how are we gonNA RESET? How is this a reset or a renewal after we're all done? Maybe when back you know going to our jobs or whatever what is the Economy GonNa look like an with House Economy GonNa be structured? Does a huge chunk of people I know who just wanted to go back to normal pre Cova nineteen. But can we really do that? You think you just sit earlier. Rick is this the new normal this distancing and stuff like that and the Kenya government tried to turn it into A. Petro State was kind of a fact petrol state anyway but the knockout. Blow that okay. It's not a knockout. Let's let's let's pretend it's gonNA come back with a staggering blow that the oil and gas industry has just been hit with like this. This past two months is I don't know how what kind of work could be necessary to make a comeback to any kind of level where it is a viable to have a maximum workers were were the government of Alberta is able to derive any revenue from it And and what about all those first nations already invested in it or wanting to be invested in this Alternate pipeline proposal. Yeah precise that we're going to go. Yeah pardon me can't help. But think Jeez will corona virus nineteen do what All the anti pipeline protests couldn't which is to say. Stop Tia Mex yes. Of course together I mean. Where will the markets be for these these products? What what is what is oil now less than five dollars a barrel. Us All depends. It's the oil sands products. Because it's not be the bitch product. Right is below five dollars. The crude is trading way below twenty. And that's not gonNA change because Russia this the problem with oil prices started because Russia and Saudi Arabia got into a contest. Yeah it's it's amazing all the things that are going on concurrently and Yeah and then this yeah. Meanwhile construction continues merrily on not only on the coastal gasoline project. But the site C project. And there's concern Our former editor here on media digital on US Joe Ski is written about it and some people have come down with the virus and people are worried that this this represents a threat to to neighboring first nations on the numbers that you're projecting I've heard elsewhere to like. I was just listening to Chris. Hedges who's a journalist and a writer who I have tremendous amount of respect for and he was intimidating. The unemployment rate perhaps as high as twenty five thirty percent in the United States This year and I think the latest numbers and I know we were talking about this earlier. Like they're they're going to be dated so quickly but just within the first couple weeks of the candidates reached. I think it's a million half Employment Insurance Applications so I mean this is massive and that's part of the reason why I mean I I I WANNA say. This was scare quotes in with great caution but when people are talking about the the you know the cure being potentially worse than the disease knives Trump has used that phrase. I mean I keep wondering what. What is the societal fallout for? All of these measures and one of the articles I shared with both you was the concern over increases in in relationship Like specifically Domestic violence so whether families are going to be more vulnerable to abuse and I know I've seen a few articles about this in terms of the general population as well with children no longer interacting with teachers or going to schools going to sports clubs. What have you? There's just less opportunity for for general vigilance over each other's well being so I just think like there's so many cascading Potential harms from this. And I that's where I think for me I. I'm really concerned that this doesn't go to a point where we're actually making things worse by by trying to shut down and the first nation that my kids are from. It's on an island. They have essentially like a drawbridge and I think it was just yesterday or two days ago. with socks first nation announced that now. I know Nonresidents are allowed into the community which is pretty sweeping and that the article you mentioned earlier wreck. I think that's that was in part at the socks because there has been local. Mind you a minor one in seems to be entirely via social media but a backlash where it's like threatening the community while if you're not going to allow US onto your reserve to get our cheap cigarettes. Were not going to allow you into town to our grocery stores that type of a response so I do. I do think there's a lot of potential for unrest in for things to really trend negatively for sure I trust. You've seen this incredible story about Old Crow in the Yukon and A and a couple from Quebec Yes essentially this couple decided. They wanted to flee their province because the province has a you know has a lot of confirmed cases thus far and They thought the best way to do that was to go to a remote northern community. And somehow they were able to a drive all the way from Quebec to white horse and then they got on a plane to fly to old crow and they were met at the airport by by an official with with first nation. Saying yeah not going to happen. I mean we talked about this earlier. I mean Canadians. Want nothing to do with first nations communities unless it serves their interest or interest. Yup I know man good Lord Good Lord. It showed the enormous amount of privilege. These people hat thinking that they could just walk into a community going. Hey there is a place that doesn't have it or could write this out and they just show up. It's like it's true right. Oh just I you so you. So yes you are that stupid. It's just like oh it's that wilfulness you know entitlement. Yeah Yeah and dangerous being all those people up there. It's just ridiculous but the but you know what it reminds me of that conversation we had about that missionary who went to that That island in India yeah And Potentially Expo. I mean it it. That was one of the concerns is that he would expose them to too. Unfamiliar Diseases like Christianity. Okay okay There's Ken nobody did this. A couple of should consider themselves. Luckily they said there was there was nothing sent into their backs. L. What has what happened on the island. Well Okay let's put it this way. They wanted to go and dream the dream going living off the land. They should have been just welcome to do that. That's true it's like okay guys. Here's some. Here's some gear. Go out there and catch us all some animals. Yeah there you go. And they just hop back in their car hop back on the plane. I in the future one of the things that I I would love to do. Is If you guys would be up to it or maybe. This is something that you'll take on with candace and and Kim would be looking at essentially what's going on in the United States and in Canada in terms of these responses at the national state provincial level is that that's just been overwhelming to figure out. I. I can't even really keep track of like what's going on in these in different provinces in terms of new measures and I've just been focused for the most part on the education sector. That's why I knew what Ken was talking about. With the layoffs that had been happening at a primary and secondary level. Just how devastating. None is so. I just think there's GonNa be a lot more of that type of news coming something that caught my eye. You don't hear a lot about and I think this is something that is of pertinent to to the to the global fight against Krona virus. And that is to say testing and there was a story done by Jorges Pereira about how Algonquin Barrier Lake in northwestern. Quebec are going to be tested After after complaints there was an agreement reached with the first nations inuit health branch of Indigenous Services Canada. No longer Housed within Health Canada. How widespread is testing available on reserve? I mean it's not very. It's very widespread candidate period. And if you believe as I do that. We do have a two tier health system on reserve and offers her again. Yeah testing like once. We started seeing the number sixty emergency rooms There's a graph that The Financial Times has been posting where they're comparing the exponential growth of covert nineteen and they base it on a factor of how often do deaths or cases double every three Anything less than three days every one day two days three days. Yeah you look at the trajectory of the United States. It's just like a missile taking off and the thing is i. I suspect that Canada is probably modeling. Not much different behavior right. We are very similar society in terms of how we live our lives and everything else like that The only difference of course we have a more comprehensive healthcare system but it doesn't mean it cannot be overwhelmed And as cases you know in those cases we know so. It's at some point Trying to follow. How many cases are confirmed becomes a little innocuous pointless but that's not the number we should be focusing on what we need to do is start looking at the numbers at enter into the healthcare system. The numbers that the number of people who recover in the healthcare system. That's the I think. The biggest factor turning the mortality rates. That we're GONNA see how well can healthcare system hold up Because if we just let to run its course up. You know. Everyone's one of the reasons why people are talking about. Just let it run. Its course we'll be fine is that they think that the number of the mortality rate is only point five percent but that's point five percent is if your healthcare system is adequate in can cold a Sustain a continual bulge in need right. But if your healthcare system starts to break down if the healthcare workers themselves start getting sick because they are costly in contact with Code Nineteen you're GONNA see a cascading effect in those mortality rates yet. No I I think you make an excellent point that when we talk about the potential impact of coveted. It's an and people sort of say. Well you know. Compare compare the rate to other maladies is a fair conversation to have on the other hand as you just noted it assumes all things being equal and part of that all things being equals assuming that no health co worker will die from this. Yeah that's gotTa be factored in. Yeah and you see the panicky images coming out of the United States of healthcare workers using garbage bags as gowns. You know because they have no they have nothing else or how to you know. Quickly make your own a face mask. So young we gotTa Look at the attrition rate is going to have and healthcare workers and again it was one of the questions. I was hoping would come up with With the doctors to talk to them. How do we as people in our homes? How what what should we do when we have to take care of someone who is not eligible for critical care not eligible to go to the yard but their lives may depend on how we treat them at home? What can we do about that? I think that's one of the things As first nations people especially in the more remote communities or the reserves that don't have access to the hospitals as quickly as you know people in the city gotta learn some home care abilities pretty quick so just to kind of continue with this sort of forward looking perspective. Wh you keeping an eye on I'm curious about nunavut it. As was noted last episode it does not have an intensive care unit bed like a bed period and so it's taken tried to take extraordinary measures to to restrict Movement in and out of people people talked about re releasing nonviolent offenders from jails which are seen as you know a potential petri dishes for this kind of thing and and so far no real movement or even openness to this to this idea from the federal government and as we know and dishes people are grossly a disproportionately Incarcerated in this country. So they're they're at risk. Those are the kinds of things. I'm going to be keeping my on. How `Bout You Brooke? Yeah I guess I mean part that I'm just curious about is what are going to be the unintended consequences of this type of shutdown. Because it's been so long like people have been talking about a lot of these measures haven't been seen since World War Two or the even the end of the first World War and even when we started talking about the measures being suggested or sort of threatened about making it mandatory for people to self isolate or you know not leave home unless you had a a a pass so to speak. I mean does add bring back memories. Yeah Yeah Yeah so no. I definitely have wondered about that. And I think that's part of the reason why for me. I'm a little bit alarmed. By what seems to be some overreach in terms of government. And like the I think it was last week. It was announced that the -Tario provincial police would be allowed to find people and detain people who are deemed to be a public health risk. Yup and so yeah I mean again. This is all happening so so suddenly like the the just like you pointed out earlier for weeks ago when we last spoke none of this was on the horizon that that's something that I I'm I'm concerned about. The I mentioned quickly to like the family violence people who are now without the the broader support systems. They'd be accustomed to in terms of CO workers or extended family members other community members. So I think that's that's something that I'm really watching intern. And I guess with pretty Grave concern and that's why I'm hoping that a lot of these measures will be lifted as soon as possible once it seems that the infection rates are cresting. I'm hoping I'm looking forward to things opening up again. And when will that be not? And that's it whether it's I mean. Just trump was talking about Easter A couple of days ago and then. Now it's the end of April. I think he extended it too. And I I don't know I mean I guess that's part of it too because there is some uncertainty over how the virus will handle Summer Conditions. I mean in the Northern Hemisphere. So maybe maybe maybe things will improve more quickly. I have no clue. A lot of people seem to be struggling with that uncertainty. I read a book when I was in my early twenties and it was called. American Holocaust is written by historian at the University of Hawaii and he provided just incredible detail. The impact of different Diseases whether you know measles or smallpox and how it just completely devastated indigenous communities so to some extent. I sort of feel like this. This isn't entirely new in terms of the health impacts on indigenous communities but the larger public response is and that was also really helpful in hearing Mary. Jane mcallen's perspective as a historian. On how this this has happened or not exactly as we were experiencing right now but certainly our communities have had Many different cases where we've been having to deal with these types of epidemic so well I mean further to what your concern around the involvement of police and public health There was a tweet put out by Jonathan Moyo Pizzi on March twenty third about how in Quebec police are now involved. In ensuring public health directives are obeyed and T two which velden coburn responded. He's his time line on. Twitter is excellent lot of grey critique on the fly He's probably obsessed as obsessed as high anyway he wrote using the police for public health. Measures does not bode well for indigenous and other racial is to people in Quebec as the VN Commission of Twenty Nineteen confirmed extensive racism both in Healthcare Service provision and police forces. I mean in some ways it just compounds existing inequities it along those lines. Two like not not police are involved enforcing the health provision but have a lot of friends who are in the disabled community and they're seeing themselves as being last being triage last in the priorities. Right with Brock's earlier concerning trying to get the economy going and then of course in the United States that when Lieutenant Governor of Texas saying I'd be willing to die so my grandchildren have economy to go to you. Know this whole sense that there's a certain amount of expendable people out. There is obviously cause for great concern but the other thing is a lot of this stuff those decisions. Those kind of policy ideas are based on information that is still too new to be evaluated like the initial idea that it was the majority of the people dying from this refundable for this was worth the elderly came from. That's who the vectors were hitting I right. It's like the For me the comparison is like when AIDS started becoming prevalent. We started knowing about it and starting doing the research on it. It first. Everyone thought. Oh it's just the gay disease and it turns out no anyone can get it the world the world can get it right is this is why we have to be careful when those kind of people start going okay. Well we'll just we'll just do this to save the economy you can't you can't make those decisions in Italy where the number of healthcare workers are dying at. They're not in that elderly category. So it's definitely something we have to go. We can't make a really white sweeping policy decision based on the information. That's coming out because we haven't had a chance to really look at it completely The best thing to do is just make try and make it safe for everybody and triage everyone equally Because if you start going well this person's this agent who knows what you know. They only have whatever time left. It's GONNA cause irreparable harm but it sets up a scary scenario because sadly it's not unreasonable to think that if you had two people who are otherwise you know an equal dire physical condition and if one was indigenous given the the racism flagged by Velden Coburn and others are there quote unquote. You know unconscious by sees going to see them say well. Let's say let's save the non indigenous person all will of course that happens already happened before that's their that's a pre existing condition like we already have stories about indigenous people in waiting rooms dying. We'll Brian Sinclair yet. Bryan died in a in a waiting space in ways in a waiting. Room and also indigenous women being sterilized. Still Yeah right forcibly sterilized. It's this is. The healthcare system does not support us because of conscious or unconscious bias. That exists so it's GonNa be worse for us but it's also going to spread out because I when I was like I was a medic in the army so I learned triage right in dire circumstances yet the triage wounded people according to your immediate evaluation of whether or not to be saved or whether or not they couldn't be saved right and so that I understand but we're in a circle this not a war. We can't this like war. We have to approach this as a society. That's going to save as many people as we can and save them equally. We can't just go. Oh you're expendable your expendable your expendable. We'll have you seen that Somebody came up with a new word. His name is Shawn Carlton Professor. I believe and he. He tweeted coronial. Ism that no. That's yeah it's one of those ones like yes. I see what you did. There not not sure works but with the was it with Mary Jane McCallum or was it with the physicians when he talked about Burkey losses. It was Mary Jane McCallum. Yeah and it's risky to try and compare different diseases. On the other hand it can be instructive well. It was interesting about Two purposes. Because I think it's there is a course the biological virus aspect of a pandemic. Great how it works. How transmits and everything else like that? But there's also a political element to it and this is not me saying this when I got one I received my Word University of Berta one of the people I was seated with was A doctor WHO's actually worldwide is worked with tuberculosis in communities around the world and he says to Berkeley is not a biological problem. It's a political problem. Yes It's it's it's it's the reason why people die in such massive numbers is because of politics knocked the actual disease itself because the disease is easily treatable And you know what I felt. I felt kind of odd. Because this is a man who's literally saved millions of people around the world and some guy wrote a couple of plays and we're getting an award so I was like I was really quite humble. He was he's a beautiful human being. You know you're really funny. And and and And is work obviously speaks for itself but yeah there is there is a connection. You gotta look at how the politics this plays out is going to be something. I'm paying attention to I can't make any predictions. Obviously right now but I think we kind of we sort of lean towards you know how we feel dishes. People are going to be affected by this. I've also indicated that the people in stable community are feeling equally vulnerable But Yeah I think we'll see how the politics of this starts to work and again we're really early in this. This is still early early for me. Question about the second wave of the virus. 'cause there is going to be a second wave Is Like for me? How do we react to that? Are going to start getting stir crazy at some point right now people are holding down I know in Edmonton people are mostly following the rules in in calmly doing so Yeah it's I think I'm not expecting breakdown seidel breakdown but I'm wondering what the stressors you're going to be and what's going to happen after that all right gentlemen. We're going to leave it there. And that wonderfully ominous place. It's nice to hear your voices again as the saying goes we'll check back in soon. Be well take care of yourselves. You guys that's it for media and digital episode two hundred and three record the early afternoon of March Thirtieth. Two thousand in twenty. Thanks again to Ken. Williams assistant professor with the University of Alberta Department. Drama then abroad. Pitcher WANNA quit associate professor of indigenous studies at York University. I'm Ricard thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again soon. Our theme is nesting bureaucratic.

Rick Hey Brock Indigenous People Ken Williams United States Mary Jane McCallum Edmonton Canada twitter Quebec York University Brooke pit federal government associate professor Native American Indigenous Stu Cova Alberta
Mark Henry

The Steve Austin Show - Unleashed!

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Mark Henry

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production available on apple podcasts and podcast. One. This up. So to Steve Austin show is brought to you today by friends at met online dot AG as we roll into the end of June sports action continues to heat up with major league baseball, the UFC Major League Soccer and now the women's World Cup. Get into mixed met online dot AG, and use the promo code podcast. One for your fifty percent. Welcome bonus better land dot AG, your online sportsbook, experts and his -clusive partner of podcast, one sports net. And Amen while you're online, you should get your car insurance figured out, go to Geico dot com and in fifteen minutes you could be saving fifteen percent of mall. Con shares as right? Save hundreds of dollars on car insurance guy co dot com extra money in your pocket. It may just be the most warning thing you do today podcast one dot com. Production from Hollywood gal by way of the broken skill ranch. This is the Steve Austin show. Gimme a hill. Yeah. Now, here's Steve Austin. Working with Steve off can show, I have come into even means streets at Los Angeles, California today. I'm sitting here three sixteen gim, extreme. We're about to open up Ken of audio whoa, Pash, as my guest today is WWE hall of Famer Mark Henry man, I think, I'll tell you a little bit of the story and the podcast, but I was over here at the house at three, sixteen gimmick street, and I get this text message and says, hey man, do you wanna talk to Earl Campbell texted back, who is this texted back, Marquette, every I call them up on phone. We start shooting the breeze. One thing leads to another Martin Luther down in Austin, Texas, Earl lives, and I had been planning a trip to Austin, Texas for quite a few weeks to reconnect with a family member and go, check out a couple of cars at I've found down there. So I said, hey man, I'm coming down to Austin, Texas. I said is that where you're at? And he said, yeah, I said, would you do my podcasts? So we worked out the details. I flew down Austin, Texas. I did his radio show busted open with him and Dave David, Greg. I'd had a great day. And man, we rolled Santa, my podcasts, started shooting the breeze. And just having a good time I've known Mark for twenty years. And I've seen him in buildings, you know, for how long, but I've never really had a long in-depth conversation with the man, and on sit down at man, I'll tell you what talking with Mark. Henry is a real interesting experience because men this guy's sore ticket, and he's such a great storyteller, and he's very engaging. And I'll tell you what, man when he starts telling the stories, and he told many that I've never heard before. And so it was fascinating. So I'm asking questions in it. It was a short term prep. When you're dealing with a guy like Marquette, who's literally for a shoot that one of the strongest human beings to ever want planet earth. He's in a top three if not the top two, if he's not the top one, that's how strong this guy is never realized until I really started looking at what is accomplished and every bit of it. Has been one hundred percent drug-free. So anyway, you sit there and start talking to Mark Henry. And I wanted to cover everything. But he's done so much in the world of weightlifting and world powerlifting in a world of sports entertainment career over twenty years. But the best thing about the sing was as we get into some of that we'll get in a lot of that. But just when Margot's into storytelling mode man, and you'll noticed later on podcast maybe would midway through. I'll kind of start just laying out because March like marks kind of like a locomotive once he starts talking man, if he's talking about somebody, he's really into it, you can just feel the energy and passion coming out, you really had to be there in person to just feel what I was feeling. But it was very powerful to do. Can talk and tells great stories. So when you have a guest like that, and some of the knowledge and some of the four one one is dropping in some of the stories of which have never heard which would phenomenal. There's no reason to interrupt that. So I just let. Mark talk. And man, we had a great time, and there was a couple of emotional moments in their form as he was looking back over some of the things that he's done. And some of the things that he's encountered and it was just it was a real neat experience. I coulda talked to Mark en for probably six hours straight, but his wife called in. He had errands to run. I'd already taken up enough of his day, so we cut it short. But look forward to get down to Austin, Texas again, and talking with them again about just more stuff, and he'll just about shooting the breeze because they got has so much so many stories and there's so much to learn from him. And it's really unbelievable. And I can understand now. Why WWE all these years later, what the hall of fame career that he's had values him so much as a global brand ambassador for Demi because, you know, he is one of those guys that has deeply carrying and very passionate about helping others and. I know he's very involved with the Special Olympics and many other things like that. And giving back man, I'll tell you something if you ever get in a war of he ever get in a bind Marken reas, one of those guys who you won't on your side, because of them and gives you his word man. He's, he's going down with you or he's going to be in the fight with you. So as a great time hanging out with Mark Henry, and you're about to hear that conversation. But before I get to that, when I started talking with Mark, I was like, hey man, is there a good hotel in town that you would recommend stay at it'd be kind of close to your studio, because I'm going to go, visit a friend of mine from way back. And then we're going to go look at a couple of cars and Mark recommended to me, the south congress hotel. So that's where I bought my reservation at Manas quite a scene down there, in Austin, Texas as I was flying down in Austin, Texas. It was almost like a homecoming because I was born in Austin, Texas, December eighteen nine hundred sixty four my parents got. A divorce my mom moved down Victoria, married Ken Williams. And you've heard a story, a million times, I hadn't been to Austin, Texas, and I don't how many years the last time I was there, I was working to franker when center right there at the university of Texas for the WWE. And so Lou back in there. And it was like man is coming full circle here, and I wanted to get down to see the Stephen Avon statue. But I never did. But as checked into the south congress hotel, I said, menaces kind of a hipster cool place. And I was in there doing all Marie search for Mark, but in a bunch of ours. And I call my wife, but I said, man, I said, I'm having a hard time getting his podcast together, and she says why I should manage kinda short notice said, Mark Henry has had one of the most successful weightlifting careers in the history of lifting and then twenty years of wrestling and goes into the hall of fame. I said menace, it's hard to research guy like Ed who's accomplished so much and she said, man. You're in your head just talk to him like you would talk to anybody go down and get yourself drink and just relax. And I said, you know what I said that sounds like a good idea because I'd been holed up in Meru room for about eight hours. So I go down there sit down to the bar. This Ford got busy and bartender. There was name William, and I said, hey, man, what kind of Margarida you make? And he told me about the Margarita. They made us an all right, man. Sounds good. So I had one and I said, hey man, what you've formula, and it kind of told me how he made his Margarita. And I said, man, here's how I make mine. Can you kind of float that Graham ornie on top? I'm not asking you to change your formula formula. But could you just float that Graham on you on top? Like I do mine, and he goes, a course so anyway, to William to bartender over there at the bar at south congress hotel, man, it was a pleasure drink and went to you make bad ass drink. And there's a lotta bartenders out there that don't want to change their formula, and he didn't tell totally. Changeup his formula. But he sure was helping me out. We had a name time just sitting at the bar. He was busy, and it was a busy as far but I got great Margaritas for a couple of days while state at that hotel. And if you look at for name good cheeseburger, there's a cafe hooked on next to the south congress, hotel called a no say cafe, and they gotta know save, Marguerite in there. It's a double meat cheese burger. And I got the bacon on there and a half avocado, and the French fries, and there's kind of like a man as type thing there, I would recommend that you also asked for mustard, I did not and had some ketchup for the fries would an eating experience. That's the best damn cheeseburger, I've had a long as time. So if you're in Austin, Texas stopped by the south congress, hotel, ask a William for Stevo sits down Margarita. He'll float that Graham on for you. He's a class act and go to the no say cafe for lunch brunch. Whatever get the no say burger with bacon. And they avocado near because it's a flat out. Bad ass burger, and great, French fries. So that's my eating and drinking experience down in Austin, Texas. And also got a chance to reconnect with an old family member. And it was a blast hooking up with him as wind down to pick him up at his place in Pflueger Ville and drove down to dinner right outside of bass drop and looked at a nineteen fifty five Buick special, which was in meant condition and looked at a nineteen sixty six Ford Mustang coupe. I've always been a fastback kind of guy, but this coupe was just a really, really good shape picked up both of those things in them having them shipped out to the Nevada. But I'd like to talk more about some of my personal things. But I've got along podcast here with Mark, we cover some really interesting material stories, I've never heard before. Again, I hope you enjoy this conversation, and, you know, Sally out towards in because I'm just listening to Martinez. Bad ass stories and without any further. Do let's get to my podcast. Let's get to my interview done there at the I heart studio's. And Austin, Texas right off congress. My guest WWE hall of Famer international sports hall of fame in Ducati, and one of the greatest weightlifters as ever walked planet earth. And one of the absolute strongest men to ever be born my guest, Marquette. Hey, man. Some of us out there have been credit shame and it is. No, good Greenwich. Shame is, when you have less desirable credit, and everyone treats you like a piece of garbage. If you have rough credit you can't avoid it car shopping denied home loan denied. And if you're planning for job. Guess what? Employers run your credit to don't let bad credit keep you down because our sponsor credit repair dot com can help you work to fix it. These guys are America's most recognizable credit repair company credit repair dot com has an incredibly knowledgeable team, a patented credit repair process and relationships with all three credit bureaus like evident inside track to solve in your credit report. 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You have seen Major League Soccer the UFC and more in major league baseball, the Astros, and the twins are standing tall and the American League while over in the National League, the dodgers and the Braves keeping things interesting then over in a UFC, the end of June sees the battle of the heavyweights, as Francis and guy, new clashes would junior Santos following that up with the dominant John Jones looking to continue his winning ways against the auto Santos at UFC, two thirty nine there's only one place. It has you covered in one place we trust. But online dot AG sign up today for a free account, but online dot AG and use the promo code. Cast one or text bet now two two three eight six six nine to receive a fifty percent. Welcome bonus at meadowland dot AG. Your online sportsbook experts and exclusive partners a podcast. One sports net you'll do it right. To make your home. Look its best indoors and out lows. Does it right to because we're the only national hole center, the Kerry's Purdy paint brushes and rollers the number one brand preferred by pros. So if it's good enough jobs, you can be sure can take on yours for your outdoors, update, your patio furniture and save big with up to twenty five percent off patio clearance items. Whatever your next project do it right for less start with Lowe's. Offer valid or six twenty six election varies by location while supplies last. US only. Hi, it's Jamie, progressive's number one number two employee. Leave a message at the hey Jamie. It's me, Jamie. This is your daily pep talk. I know it's been rough going ever since people found out about your Capella group, mad harmony, but you will bounce back. I mean you're the guy always helping people find coverage options with. Name your price tool. It should be you giving me the pep talk. Now, get out there, hit that high note, and take mad harmony all the way to nationals this year. Sorry, it was pitchy. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Steve almost. Roland san. I'm sitting here in holliston Texans in the city where I was born December. Eighteenth nineteen sixty four yesterday flew on airplane in Los Angeles, California touchdown won't across. Get my rent a car. It was ninety two degrees. I said, man, I'm home and his hot. I'm in Los Angeles alot turned into a weather Sissy. But now I'm sitting four feet away from gab always gotten along with we've always been friends don't always show, the real well all at times and address room, but you travel with your crew travel with mind and you lasted twenty years. I lasted a couple and Mark Henry is my guest today and we're in his studio where he does his show. So explain this setup and tell people where we're at Mark, I heart studios in Austin, but I do my show from here on Sirius XM busted open and David Greco and bully Ray, who. You did show with him before, and Tommy, dreamer myself, five days a week. And right now, we got the number one apple podcasts, and we're going to hold that title as long as we can. But, you know now that I'm on this one, I think we're going to make big jumps. Hey man, here's the thing. I was I got a short notice I told his story on March show, but I'm gonna tell it here. I was at my house standing in the kitchen and I got this text message, and it was a number in Texas about did not recognize it as that. You wanna talk neuro Campbell and I texted back immediately, who is this? He texted back, Mark Henry, I picked up the phone and mail. What are you doing? I, I had to number long time ago. But you know like when you say the name Earl Campbell to younger listeners out there. You gotta understand if you're from Texas, or if you love football, you know, who Earl Campbell is, and you respect at name dude was an absolute. Monster. Just a monster of power and speed. He doesn't get credit for being a speed back. But he, he did have breakaway speed. You get him on the sideline. You wanna ruin run down. And if you was in front of him, he Dave, she was probably going to run over you. And he took pride in the fact that it was going to take at least to note corner ever tackled him. And the other thing about was originally linebacker, but anyway, not less. So I said, okay, how can I talk to Earl Campbell? And I said, well, dude, I'm coming to Allston. Anyway. I'm looking at a car and I've got to connect with a family member. Would you be on my show because I don't want to talk on the radio anymore and here I could be in person with you twenty years in business. WWE hall of Famer, we've always been friends and not have you on the podcast. And here's the thing auto Marcus at manage short notice. When I started looking back at your career from a string perspective. And then from a wrestling perspective. It ain't no easy study. Now, so three different sports. Yeah. But you know we're talking about Earl Campbell. Like, I remember I ran into you in Brooklyn as some slam year before last two years ago while I was talking to you my phone rang and it was Earl. Oh, and I was like, oh my God, man. That Steve mind if I take this call is Campbell and use like Earl Campbell. And I was like, yeah, my son, you know, looks out form and use it. No, no, go ahead. And then I talked to him for a minute. You said there, talk mica cove thirty seconds long. It took me to get off the phone. And then you said man, how, you know, Earl and I told you about him my son. And, you know, you probably expect you to remember all that. And I said, man, you use like ma'am, a big fan like he's pretty much the reason I play football, and I was like, wow. I'll have to let him know and fast forward. Now, two years later, and I'm standing on the track with my with my son and Earl Campbell son, and I was like, man, you know what, man, I meant to tell you that last time I saw him that Steve Austin was big fan his, and if I could give you his phone number, y'all can kit, keep up getting touch. And he said, you know, man, it'd be cool dad, you know, hey wrestling. I was like, let's do it. And I said, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna send him a text right now. And that's when I send you to tech. So it was pretty cool, the baby to connect y'all. And I hope that I have a good conversation we will, and there's so many places to start and I could go back. And because anytime I research, guess you kind of start off with a Wickham pedia page some facts. And then I'll watch interviews and stuff like that. And I've got a million notes done here last night about ten thirty coma wife, she goes doing us in Madison, shrine upriver, Mark Henry, this dude has done so many things in his life. I said, I'm going to blow this thing. And I send she goes stop. She goes you're over thanking. It just talk to him. Like he would anybody asset II buddies accomplished so much. He goes, stop it. He goes, go get yourself a drink it'll be fine. So I want to ask you a question that I that I've been asked many times when I left the business of professional wrestling, and I got taken out of context, last time I said, this, Mark, and it makes me angry. When I got taken out of context, I was talking about making an exit from the WWE, I would tell about transitioning out of the business, not trying to get out of the w w e specifically. Right. I was talking about wrestling in general. Most of the guys don't have a plan, you know, they just end up whatever not doing anything or trying to stay in it forever on not do. Doing anything and while you're not doing anything spending everything you may find something else about in you ran through everything. You had you know, I, I didn't want to do that. And I always tell people less than hey, man bouncing around or running the ropes and a twenty by twenty ring traveling all over the world doesn't train you to tune Nessler necessarily do anything in the world. But if you have a following, you know, like you had and like I can transition out of it. Look at what the rock dead. He's one movie star in the world. And he had his eyes set on that way, back in a day started nurturing that and look how that worked. But that wasn't my plan when I had to leave the business, you know, I was depressed about three years, and just kinda just wasting a lot of time. And I moved out to Los Angeles. Now that being said everybody's heard my story here we are. We're or busted open radio. How'd you segue into radio because as we were talking off microphone you're saying you grew up on radio this little bitty speaker with? So you've always been a radio guy. And now you are on the radio. How did that happen? What prepared you for, for life after the ring, you know, what really didn't prepare me? It was more of a we were poor and didn't have TV and my grandmother, had this old radio like the old time timey looking radios with the three knives on three little speakers. They look like a little church window. I. Grew up listening to baseball games and football games. And there was a guy that was the guy wrestler sold J P Williams, in, in silsbee, Texas, that K K s radio station he would he would call a game and it was like he was there. You could see everything happen. And I wanted I wanted I was like, man, I want to do that, when I grow up and little did. I know that that's something that I would I would actually get the opportunity to do. Because when you're in the car with me, driving probably ninety percent of the time. I'm listening to sports radio. I'm listening to Howard Stern. I'm listening to a show that nature and that is what drove me to call. Dave LA Greco, who is the host of busted open ten years ago and ten years ago, I hear his wrestling show, and I'm I was always this was K fehb days still everybody. That was on radio seemed like it was some kind of expe. Jose. They wanted to talk about how to see behind the curtain, or something to that effect. And I just hated it. So I turn the radio and I hear this is David Greco, and he was talking about wrestling, but he was talking as a fan a wrestling, man. These guys they almost killed themselves. And I go out and drive two hundred miles to watch this show. And then on Sunday out drive, another one hundred and fifty miles and see this show, and then I go home, and then I get ready for, you know, my teaching job when he was teaching at the time, and he was a professor at Rutgers about sports radio. And I was like, wow. This is pretty cool dude. I'm a call in to his show, and it was the first show of busted open, and I met him two or three times in the last ten years and I told him I met love radio and I call into your show because I. She ate you being a fan of the business, and you're not trying to down the business that you have lift in the business. And he said, man, you should come on sometime. And I didn't even know. I could do that. You know, I asked the WWE about me doing a radio show and they were like you don't have time to do a radio show. And I never asked again. So I knew that, you know, when it was all said and done for me, and I made my mind up to retire from wrestling that I was going to try to take a stab at it again. So I saw Dave wrestlemainia three years ago and say, man, I still like, come on, on radio which and he said man, let's do it. And we started talking. And here we are now with the best radio wrestling radio show and world and with the most exposure around the world and number one, apple podcast, and it's just been a beautiful transition. How hard was it for you to walk away from the business? 'cause I go back to an angle you shot, it was when you did the fake retirement, and you drill John CENA. And then you would ultimately retire several years later, and man, I was like, man, you fooled everybody on that night. And I was like, man, I smell a rat, I smell or at a March got to be up there. Got to be so anyway, ended up doing what you did. But let's, let's talk about the real retirement and we're kind of won't work working backwards. How hard was it for you to walk away? And did you walk away with just a bunch of injuries and are you currently in pain? I'm definitely in pain, and I'm a had a need fixed. I wrestled for probably last four years with a torn meniscus in two places, and a reconstructed IT ban that came undone over the last unraveled over the last ten years, I have stenosis in my back. So I was like, I will wake up in the morning at the, you know, a ten hour day getting rid of the wrestling, then three hour drive after the show, and I will wake up and I'd be like a seventy year old man eighty year old man. That had be abused a body, I said, man, I can't do this. No more and Vince was, you know, if you had one them conversations with Vince, you go in, you got man. You know what, man? It's been a good ride for me. All hell, you still young man. You got plenty of time left and you go in Vince. All hell, I came out of there with a five year deal of like I'm never next time I get ready to retire. When this five year contract is over. I'm not gonna ask him. I'm just gonna disappear. And I gotta let her out the letter. Like, hey you're gonna resign you're gonna resign and I was like, I'm not answering my not talking to nobody. I'm just gonna do it. And then finally, it got to the point where I had like three or four weeks left before my contract. Expiring events. Call me in his office. And I told him I was like, man, I got I gotta go. I can't my body hurt so bad. You know, I just can't do it. No more. And he's like, well, why don't you get get it fixed? And then come back, and I was like, I think I'm just done man, you know, and he was, like, come home, like you got a lot left in you. I, I know you do. I mean, you, you too young to go home and sit around and just watch. The kids grow up. You know, you can you can do both. And I said, well, once again, he was like he convinced me to coming back, but I had told people flow almost a year that I was done. And I was like, Wow, I've been telling everybody that I'm done. And he's like that's even better. He's like bodies expects. It he's like, let's give it to him to go ahead and retire. And right Ben, we'll real in back in and I was like, all right. Let's do it and we sat there and worked it out how we're going to get done in three weeks. That's when retirement speech came, and it was a real retirement, and, you know, a lot of people don't know, me, personally, but I'm kind of a thinker. And I, I like plan stuff out and I write a lot. So I wrote my real retirement as if I was retiring. So what people saw was my retirement, that's the only one that I've done. I didn't do another one afterwards like a structured retirement because that was the real deal. Right. When you walk away from the measures did you, did you miss it? I still miss it. I missed I missed the locker room. I missed the drives where I've, I mentor it a lot of guys. Hey did from Randy Orton, and Bobby Lashley and Batista and all guys that came from Ohio valley, me, and big show. Got sent down there and big show got down there to get in shape, and they sent me down there to get my head together because I wanted to fight, everybody that said anything negative to me and I just my wrestling couth was off. And I lot of respect for the boys it wasn't a effect that I didn't have respect for the boys, but I came from a different place. And when you try somebody, you better be able to whip him where I'm from don't say, nothing to them. Let us Lee. Dog lay and, you know, I always pig on Bradshaw, because him and Ron Simmons used to entertain themselves by messing with me and run would tell John, hey, you know, you don't you don't like the black jokes. Like, don't say nothing don't and he's like no. But you got you gotta go. You gotta do it. Because watch watch him get hot watching, and they used to manipulate me, too. And now I'm old told me but there was a time when I wanted to just Merck him. I just wanted to get him. I, I walked up to him behind the bleachers, one time and I say, hey, man today is the last day, you know, I'm just like there's nobody around this is gonna happen again. When will joke, I'm putting your lights out and he's like, man. What's wrong with you, you crazy? And I'm like, yes, I am. I like his I was like you all your passes a gun. I was like I don't care if they fire me, but you're going to be hurt. And he said you fucking stupid. He's like come over here. So he took me over to run. He said, Ron ask him what he just told me and I say, I'm gonna kill him. And Ryan said, why are you going to kill him? He's like, because I'm tired of all his jokes. He's like, man. Come on, man. I'm sorry, man. Like I put him up to it. Man. I was track because it's so entertaining saying you get mad. He's like an and they we laughed and stuff. And, and I realized that I had to be in doctor and into the business. I never really got accepted about a boys because I was so into my, my life outside of wrestling. I was somebody before wrestling, right? And you need to treat me like I was somebody before wrestling, and that don't mean nothing when in the wrestling landscape, when you come into the business of sports entertainment, pro wrestling, have you wanna phrase it, you've got to love that? And put everything else aside you play football. Oh, you know how you love football but soup football, supersede wrestling. Once you got any right now. So that was my problem is I let everything else in fear with me actually being doctorate in wrestling. So we're was you head then when you got the business because, you know, you get this call from vents and the next day you're flying up to Stanford. Scientists ten year deal. It took about. It was about a six eight month period in between that first visit, but that openly is what happened. But you're already multiple times. You're the world's strongest man three time Texas day. I mean, here's the thing when you came in as world's strongest, man, nineteen Ninety-six ratified Olympics that red white and blue stuff for your marketing campaign. I'd like I get do really, really strong and I knew you or the world's strongest man. But in intil you really look on paper what you've done. It's, it's, it's flabbergasting to see the list of accomplishments. My point is with all of that accomplished. I could imagine you kind of walk in there with either a big hit, or the fact that, hey, I don't give a shit about, you know, this power that was hard for me. Because it's yeah it's, it's different step. And you're the you're, you're the monster. Among a bunch of big ass powerful men in your chosen sport, weightlifting, and powerlifting. Which is to. Separate deals will get into so where were you when you got in, because I can after reading all this stuff all the stuff that you did. I can understand why you'd be in a whole different mindset. You're traded with the best in the world. I was still the world champion powerlifting ninety seven and I was the national champion in the same year in Olympic weightlifting and I want six national titles leading up into the Olympics in Atlanta, and I got hurt and that was the best shape. I have been in and in the same calendar year. I did a nine hundred eighty pound squat. I did a nine hundred and three pound deer live a six old one bench. I did a five hundred and one clean and jerk and a foil to snatch. No other human being walking. This planet has ever done that. And I was told. You need to forget about all that. And just exorb- this and go on. That's like me saying, hey, you need to stop being black, you need to stop being Christian, and you need to become a vegan. I ain't no way. I can't do. I can't do none of it. I'm never going to stop eating meat. I love meat. I'm a foodie. I'm a born and raised Christian. My grandmother and my mom rollover grades. If I switch religions. And as far as me never been black. I'm one of the blackest black people you ever go meet it just can't happen steam. But when someone says eight leave all that behind you, like, hey, man, these worldwide never this. What made me? So, so if you lose that you lose your identity, right? And at the end of the day, it's also you're giving or you're right? You know, the attraction, the world's strongest man, but then from almost like a ticket like a Bruce Lee approach here. Okay. I can understand. Maybe if they said, hey, forget about leave it over here. Leave it. Yeah. But, but that's not what I got. Right. And there was no such thing as a developmental wrestling system. You went to the Indies you went to a territory and you learn how to work, and they gave you baby steps of what you put the ring up. You drove you win. Got food for the boys. You went. And, you know, you, you, you, you, we refereed you run the Bill, you, you did everything around the business until you got. Brought into the business. I was it was not in my in the cards for me. They created a they hired. Doctor Tom Prichard to train me, specifically wrestling diet one, oh, one wrestling. Wrestling, one on one and I went from being anaerobic athlete to be an aerobic athlete. And people expected me to get it. In a couple of weeks. I was a good athlete. You'd be hard pressed to find somebody that was able to do two things that I did strength wise. Like I just told you that can still run a mile and under nine minutes at three hundred seventy five pounds that could have a thirty three inch vertical that could dunk a basketball with two hands that at four hundred at four hundred pounds and, and all of the stuff that I did athletically, you to that person that all of that. Now nothing else exists but wrestling. And it was hard for me to do that. And also, I had this problem not a problem with authority, but I'm externally motivated. I'm a reward driven athlete. I believe that if you win. And you do good you get rewarded. I didn't feel like wrestling was loving me back at the time I was doing everything wrestling told me to do, but still the boys used to haze me, I will do everything there was to do, but then when it came time for TV I, I didn't get put on TV so people say you wrestle. Yeah, I've never seen it on TV before, and I was like, man, I need to get on TV like, why am I, not on TV? So when I you can't just walk in Vince McMahon office and say, hey, man, you know, I've been doing this for like six months. I ain't been on TV. I did my dumb ass. I didn't know better. Nobody told me I didn't know nothing about wrestling other than. Fact that I was a fan and you take one of these fans out here and try to make them a hall of fame wrestler, it just that's not the way it works who finally went with JBL and Ron seven revenue. I mean like who else was hazing you because dude, you wanna most powerful guys on the planet, and it just it's interesting. Anybody would even consider hazing you remember when you came in, I would just coming out of the ringmaster gimmick, I would just now starting to kind of maybe get a little bit of established a stone cold new. There's gonna push you heavy you know once it got you up to speed, but I don't remember a lot of your beginning years because I was doing my own thing, who was messing with you. Did it take for you to fit in with the wrestling crowd or the boys it, it took me getting banished to Canada because I threatened to kill shot. Mike. Or he might they hear my crutches. And when I broke my ankle, and I just was like, okay, this is it like is it's over. I don't want to do this. Pitches you off, they offer all oh, man. And so, I was like, man, you a hundred and eighty pounds mild kill you, man. I, I it'd be unfair for me whip you and he's like you threatening me. I was like I don't think it's really a threat. I'm just like telling you like it is y'all need to leave me alone. And he dove Vince events said, hey man, you can't threaten our top guys. What's wrong with you? And I was like, look man. I just ain't Houston though by trying me like if they want to try me, they got a baby, except the consequent no Amit. You can't just beating people up is not gonna fix it. They try to make bring you in, but you, you pushing them back, and I'm like, so he's, you know what I talked to Bret Hart and bread is he's training, some guys up at his house, and I want you to go up to Canada and I'm thinking, oh, shit. I'll go up Canada two or three weeks and come back in may. I'll be like up there. Up there for nine and a half months. Holy shit training every day every morning in the ring four hours a day, and then I got on introduced me to dad to Stu Hart. And I started going I will leave Brits house where Jim was, and then I drive over the Stu Hart, how the heart house and go Russell down in the basement dungeon. And then he started teaching me wrist locks and hand holes. And Stu was a master hand hose and Rhys locks and people don't realize people like judo, Jean Lebel, and Stu Hart, like they were real shooters. And he was like your strength. You could do things to somebody that would be legal. He's like. Learn how to wrestle like that. I won't you to put holes on people that look like you're going to pop them, and a likes, which came on, and I started to work like that. And they'll guys up there, Rodney Blackbeard Andrew Martin tests. Glenn CoCo who played Canadian football was all pro Canadian football player like thirteen years. It was a bunch of guys up there is in Christian like I mean it was it was the list goes on. And on guys it was up in Canada. And I felt like after about nine months that I understood what it was to be arrested. Now they should have did that to me first before putting me in the locker room with season wrestlers and then I went to Louisville for another year. And I had Danny Davis. Jim cornet rip Rogers. There's people that can really work and really understood resume. You know, there's nobody has crazier in his world and Jim cornet. But there's nobody in this world that I feel like I've met that understood the psychology of wrestling archetype, this ecology of wrestling Beden, Jim cornet special, but crazes hill. Super special I love him to death because if it wasn't for him there, wouldn't be no me in wrestling. Like, that's how seriously was he knew that I was a reader, because he was see me, and I'd be reading a book and he'd be like, you know, you need to put that football magazine, Dan, you need to grab one these wrestling books. Here you go in a stack of books really? And what the Hooker was the best book that I've read in wrestling for wrestling, and Danny highs learning about Danny hygiene, all of these guys that he said, these guys, if they were your size, they, they would be put in jail. He's like you, you, you, you need to be Danny Hodge, and I'm like, wow. So then when I started reading about Danny Howard. I realize man is do strong like the stuff that they, you said that he could do. I was like at two hundred twelve two and fourteen pounds. No way. And I was interested. I was hooked. So he gave me a vehicle that strength had his place in wrestling. And that was it. I was done. I was down in Louisville for year. I came back and. I had a match at the peel men show. And I remember seeing you at that show. And I won have the past and I had a match with, with Hugh Moore's. And we killed it and. We will leapfrog in an all dragon and stuff. And after imagine was sitting on the floor and Ricky steamboat walked up and he said, hey, man, what's your name? And I was like, Mark Henry, and he was, like, he's like, you know, as good to see that psychology still exist in our business. That was the first time to anybody that brought me in that say you apart of us, you one of us he said, our business. He didn't say my business and I feel like as a -ccomplish as I've ever felt in powerlifting weightlifting and strongman anything else like rigor steamboat in one comment validated. The fact that I belonged in the business and nothing nobody else could say would me that anything different. It's interesting these different moments that happen in different places. You went on. I never knew who spent nine ten months up there with hearts. Yeah. And, and. I remember natty and TJ and all of them, they were like five years old. They babies I used to babysit him win. The parents needed to go out and have date night. Like, you know, I take the kids, I cook for all the Brits kids, you know, we get done eating I cook for them. They, we may pasta together and spaghetti and stuff. And because they love spaghetti and Austin broke a plate on the floor bang because he didn't want to wash dishes as okay? You clean that up. We'll do some push ups. I, I use the hell out of them. I used to make him do push ups and squats. They did what we did in training. I know that you give Dwayne Johnson a lot of credit for helping you out a lot would have put you in the nation of domination. How and what did he do to help you that, that was master class? I learn how to wrestle, and I learned psychology, but I hadn't learned how to ply in a ring, and that's something. All together different. There's never been a wrestler, that was more studied than Dwayne. He was over prepared. We would talk in the car, and he would have VHS tapes of matches of the people that he was going to wrestle against. And he we used to carry video game XBox PlayStation of some. We say CD, whatever games, we play them games, and he would carry a VCR on the road with him. And he will watch tapes at night when he got his room and he always writing promos. And he practiced the promos on you in the car. You know, man, I just want to ask you a question what I mean? How do you feel about, you know, driving down to king of Prussia in New York? Well, it doesn't matter what. And he's I'm like, maybe we should up. He's like, there's no and ain't it like he, he would do that kind of stay practice everything. And he told me that I played too much. He's said, you need to focus man like you can be good. He's like, if if you concentrate on wrestling, like you do video games and watching college football, you, you you're going to be great and he was right. And I had to be more serious when he came here, he didn't have two nickels together. And I had an apartment in Stanford and I told him I was like man I got extra room in my apartment. You move in with me, and he was like, man. I'll have no money you know, to pay you, you know, I was like look. You're going to get some money. Don't worry about it when you get it paid me back. So he moved in with me. I bought him a bedroom set and about six months later, he got got got his first check put pay me back, and we live together for about seven months before we both went to Memphis together Memphis haired. Jerry Lawler said, hey, man. I'll take them young guys. So they can learn how to work on the road, and so we went down to Memphis man. And, and started working and driving five hours, four hours like man, what the hell? We thought we were going to fly. He is like now, spoil do is over. You're on the road. Now. He's like this is what it really is. He's like I used to do this with my dad, and that he was destined for greatness, because he had already knew everything you know, he accepted it a long time ago. I didn't know he was trying to explain it to me, right? But I was in the world but also substantially similar tragic, explain something to you. You're just not ready to absorb it. I wouldn't ready. You're just not at a level to comprehend it, yet it takes some seasoning. And then finally, you go, oh, this is what they were taught what you fly, you get a couple of questions here, how, how were you, Dwayne as far as ruin Bache wasn't like, you know, a neat freak and someone who's not an freak or y'all? Get a little like gangbusters. How's that man? We got along real good because he put his hair phones on when you went to sleep. And you put those headphones on he goes to sleep knocking on my door because I didn't set alarm. I used to just get when I got up and he started. I may come on. Let's go workout now. So we can go train, and then after training, we'll have to go work out. We have like the whole day. And I was like sh-. I hated getting up. So now I'm getting up at six seven o'clock with him going to the gym, and it was the best shape by ever been in, like just he was like, hey man, they're going, they're going to bring you into the nation. Like I've been talking to Vince about you being like the muscle for me. And I was going to be the muscle for you. That's how stupid I was this cries. Is this crisis? I'm telling you, I was stupid. Man. I don't want to be the most for you. I want to be my own guy. I wanna do this, and then he's like, look man. On TV. Yeah. I'm trying to like bring you help you out and just and we got to we got to the building. And Ron said, look, all you gotta do is keep your mouth shut and do what I asked you to do, and you're gonna be alright. And there's never been true at words now a lot of people think that Duane was the one that used that came with no euro and shut your mouth. That was Ron Simmons, Ron Simmons was the one that was like listen. You need you need to know your role and, you know, if you can shut your mouth, and Dwayne took that and said, boom, and it was one of the things that helped him, so it was like all of us were benefiting from working we run. If you saw me during that time of the nation, I was a carbon copy of Ron Simmons. I did everything he did in the ring. I wrestled exactly like rod Simmons, and then runs say live. You can't do exactly what I do. Stop stealing my stuff he's like you need to come up with your own identity. And so it was like masterpass. Godfather. And Billy Gunn used to walk. Go to the rain with me. And they helped me. They showed me like how to come up with my own thing. And man. Then I mean it just like everything else was history. Then I gotta ask a question about Ron Simmons because I'm at Ron a long time we go back world championship breslin who's working in Atlanta. And we always got an all that gangbusters former football player and, you know, he's bad ash. My question to you is run. Always had that tone that voice Ron can get your attention by reading the alphabet, and one of the promos washing. You guys did he basically, he goes, hey shut your mouth. He told you shut up during the Provo, but when he laid that tone on you, and you coming out of an alpha sport from from all the weightlifting powerlifting days, and all of a sudden you're dealing with a man like Ron Simmons. You know, he was a bad. Do you see the word you use a man? Oh, yeah. In the dictionary on demand as a pitcher run Simmons with his hand on his chin like the thinker and run Simmons is a grown man. There's a lot of men on this planet, but it ain't many grown men run Simmons, I watched this do going to gym with pair of blue jeans and cowboy boots put three fifteen on the bar. No warm-up do twenty rips racket, comas hair for about two minutes, who has come in his boot take it off to another set of twenty John. I'm going to the car that was his workout. He was country strong and it wouldn't just train in strong. It was it was from his soul. And I felt like I size people up. I know you athlete, you size people. You like look if if shit go wrong, and I gotta hit this, dude. Let me let me find that weakness. I'm I'm I'm sizing him up. I would look at Ron sometimes and Ron was like, yo grandfather you like what you looking at me like that he knew that you were sizing him up. And he was leading, you know, right away. Don't think that it's okay for you to size me up and I go. Yes, sir. He only person I think I've been scared of in my life like that was that's a grown man. It was early nineties was over Japan a bunch of American guys over there this, my first time over there zone about a three week, period. I told my tricep off my right arm on a third night. So back in the day man, if you told me, try zip off your state, and you work that's just wasn't gonna get no worse now. But we'll get no better. It's just went was so to help me out. They put us in a lot of tags and six man's so one of the nights, and, you know, Ron always ended voice, and as a six man in me, an RN Rhone apron, Ron was in there. We work in when it gets Japanese guys and you always hear. Hey, man of solos guys strong style are be stiff with United sending a message. That's how they worked man. Those guys is like Shakespearian theatre. Nobody, you know, it was like light as a feather. And especially when Ron got out there aren't aren't used always coming off. He go. Does hypnotise elbow me to wear Japanese crowd? He goes man. I feel softening those guys over there, rob, which is women those guys around like it was like they went one hundred and fifty pounds. And just do whatever he would it. But it was like if Ron star taking care of business, Ron was going to take care of business. Bottom line, don't mess with him. Don't fuck with, you know, I the only time that I ever seen it in, in live in, in three D was dumb as I'm at Johnson. All people in the world to, to pick a beef with he kicked run in lacerated line. Ron's livered. Ooh. And Ron was out for about nine months, and I'm thinking the whole time when Ryan come back I feel sorry for this do because he gave him his body, and he kicked him as hard as ever seen him being kicked teddy long was driving the car with me, and he said, hey, man. You know, Ron Simmons come back next week I said, oh, man. That's. Cool. He was like, nah, lifts this tweet me you I live in Atlanta. I talked to run all the time run. It's pissed. And he said that when he come back he going to hurt this do. And I'm like. Now I'm like, now, I'm like, he's like, don't say none. You know, I'm just letting you know you know, like don't be around him because he got he was like I mess with him, anyway, so they get back and I remember the first time I saw run run, though. The hey hear me he walked right by me, like I wasn't there posted up in locker room. And I can't remember who it was. Somebody went and sat next to him Ryan grabbed all this stuff kind in a huff, and moved it over in into area where he was by himself, and it was, so unlike run he was, so angry being back at the arena, knowing that I'm Ed was coming, and he was mentally preparing himself for. What was about to happen? And I remember looking at the card, and Robin gone for nine months more, and it was Ron Simmons. I'm Ed Johnson. And I went. Lee, the sell out. I remember being sell out referred to the to what you're talking about selling. I'm sure okay for those that don't know what would sell out. This is not when you know you sell all the tickets in the Rena I'm talking about. When all the boys are standing at the curtain in their peak in through because they wanna watch was going to happen with. They real is rather than watching a monitor or being in a gorilla position. They you all the boys are watching. And I remember standing next to D low in D low Hayden. I'm Ed Johnson. They had had a fight earlier that year and was dealer stretched is as he had, you know, triple h at. Hundred hymns at the time had a run in with him. And he threatened to beat up hunter, and he was gonna Moke him. And he's like, no but dealers said, nobody's mocking nobody. And that's when they got in a fight, but dealers standing next to him, he said, hey, this ain't gonna take long and I went like it was a build up and I'm telling you, it was not a lockup. It was a mauling run ran through him. His back hit the ground Ron stumped on his stomach. And then when he rolled over to try to get up right, kicked him in the ribs, broke three his ribs. And I mean it was it was like watching tiger lion of something attack some helpless animal in a while and. Ron pinton and at this time in use your -nology. I'm Johnson was over his hill during that time the only person getting a reaction like yours with his he was that over six months later, he got killed off in one night. It was that night that Ron came back and whipped his ass. His run was over. And he never was the same he had to leave he couldn't he couldn't beat it. He couldn't beat that. No more. I didn't know that. Oh my God. Ron ran in my business and his life of crime started because he wasn't a good enough wrestled go to W W, and be a player people cared him his whole career. I as you could tell I don't like it. I never liked him. He was a bad example, for a black man, people struggle to get in his business, and try to make a success and try to be equal in the be better than equal. And he was. Ruining it. And Ernie Ladd told me when I came in his business, he's a Henry don't miss it up. Everybody looked like you afterwards. And I feel like I'm it was he did not get that memo, nobody told him and I think that he was such a liar. And people didn't have enough faith in the do the right thing that they just wouldn't help him. Anyway. And so, you know, it was he ended up doing his own thing, but he, he tried to peel me one night, I went I ate with him and to and turn my drink up. And it's this is two summers in my in my water. I don't drink alcohol and it'll tell us onto someone could have killed me for all I knew it might not have. But I'm like, look at somebody got answer for this, what happened who put these in my dream Tuesday. Look man, I ain't saying about nobody else, but I ain't do it, and it wouldn't be too sitting there. And I love junior for it. And we said, I said, look, don't finish your meal, 'cause I'm going outside, and, you know, we're gonna handle this, when you come outside and thirty minutes, go by forty minutes go by. I just pulled him in for twos. Bags out the card through them on the curb and I went on the Miami. We went West Palm. I know forget, it also ain't those, those buddy, angry they ever been in the business, and I never liked sense. And he never Pala jives, the nothing, you know, I mean, it just like this is a guy as based, my whole life on being drug free, and you're gonna give me you're going to try to peel. You're gonna put you know you go to prison for that now. Yeah, you try to do that you go to prison. Did you never drink? I never drink I drink in college my freshman year in college. When I first left and went to. Pikes peak community college in Colorado Springs Olympic trains. And I got so sick that night, I was like law, God, if you ever if you deliver me from this pain, and then spinning in vomiting. Never do it again. Never drink. Yeah. Are you serious on drink? I never drank out of that. No pills on room. Nothing. I never did. I don't smoke. I smoke cigars with the boys every now and then but that's more social is not like I smoke cigars every week every month. Every two or three months. I might smoke a cigar. That's about it on the road. How did you stay steadfast and strip clubs? Okay. Used to say that everybody had a price you just to new t shirt. Everybody's got a vice man. I was a food. Man. I, I use the hit them strip joints, man them shake clubs. I hang out with the boy view spent five I spent five we had a ball and then you gotta grow up, and I just grew up and became a family guy, man. That's awesome. You got to get you didn't like and I said things about many that are untrue. I not a fan either. But I wanted I heard him call you a racist out? All of people on earth of Caucasian persuasion. I would attest that, that you're not a racist. Thank you for tests. I heard I heard I heard what he said, I've never been able to address that because I've never had on needed to. Yeah. You had the validate his stupidity now that's, that's a completely fabricated story and complete horse shit. I've maintained my silence of her time, I've ever ever aggressive or talked about it. I'm glad we can because the, the source that it came from was not valid enough. Anybody to believe in anyway? The only breaking news hang around at the end of this podcast for the latest breaking headlines on the AP news. With the Capital, One savored card you in four percent. Cashback on dining and undertake -ment. That's four percent cashback on we scream for ice cream. I was very and four percent while you're screaming at the amusement. The Capital One saver card. 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I wait set when you about ten years old, and you always your side of the family are y'all family had big men in it. But you oakwood show. Oakland show to it out. Six seven about five hundred pounds. I wondered about for fifty us a bit Hugh. The big big do is it will be easy for me to get up the four hundred pounds again, if I ate like that in the country, he worked in the woods, and my grandmother's favorite cousin and never really had a pair of shoes used to wear moccasins or what they call, bro, Ganz. It was like a soul with a shoot at kind of wrapped around your foot just a unbelievable, like my family when they used to talk about him, it was like big foot, like telling you the story about some months that existed, a long long time ago. And they spoke with reverence when they talked about my grandmother used to say Mark remind me, so much that should does he just smiled. I'm. You know, pound referred to me is smaller did was he able to get any kind of sports or anything like that. Now, this is the strongest man in the piney woods. Yeah. This was he he's like pool logs. And do he was a logger, right? And this was during kind of Lee is the thirties. So, you know, it was no opportunity for him to do anything other than just work. You know, he wouldn't educate it never went to school, nothing like that. Is it was long before integration? Like I mean it was you know you you're gonna early thirties. You know, just thirty years before that. It's slavery. Yeah. You know, by grandmother, you know she used to talk about him, you know, like with that, that reverence but the high was no opportunity for him to play any sports. Anything that didn't exist for black people. So when you started your mother bought you that wait, Senate ten when you started trading prior, because I know that they formed a powerlift team around you as silsbee high school. But but what, what drove her to buy you that wait shit? And when did you figure out that you would put on earth? I mean I know like fifth grade you like to twenty five. Yeah, I was pretty big. But I, I remember seeing the Olympics put a first time in seventy six and it was a guy by the name Celia Alexia. Oh, yeah. And Alexia was big dribble man wrong as a house when, when he came on TV it was like he was Muhammad Ali like, you know, he didn't speak English, but they threw roses at him like us revered. And I told you I'm externally motivated, anything that looked like wow. They respect that guy. Like that's what I wanted to do. And I figured, you know what I feel a strong? I'm be like him, and I told my mom, I wanna wait. And that was all sponde- off, you know, I'm like six or seven years old. She like you can't lift the weights. And I begged her from that time alway until I was eleven when she bought those weights and she was like, what is your brothers weights, and, you know, y'all lift them together like you know, so my mom was always inclusive. She like look y'all y'all doing this together. But it was me that was begging for and, and also we did, like, you know, some kids go out and ride bikes. You know, me and my brother, we win lift weights, and all the kids in the neighborhood used to come out front yard and we, they're lifting weights man. What kind of wait, did you get? I remember back EP for life. It was concrete concrete in the plastic. Give in the little plastic tower yet, little bitty tiny boy, we bent that bar. And we ended up using a pipe like a real thick metal pipe kind of like a just a little bit bigger than rebar and kind of what they call Cole row. And so we, we lift with that, and that, that thing is still was probably thirty forty pounds just, you know, just a piece of metal, you know, I had never done the only way that you can do a squat is, if you did a good morning because it was a bench press that the rack was on any it only went up to a certain height. So we would do a good morning. And then we do squats, we copy everything we saw TV during that time they had the world's strongest man guy Bill has Meyer, you know, they used to throw rocks. And, you know, live logs and different stuff. And that's what I did anything that looked remotely challenging. I tried to replicate it in my backyard, there was a show that used to come on, at noon called body body-shaping with Corey Iverson, and I met all the same stuff. I met Corey Vison she got inducted into the international sports hall of fame, like four years ago, and I was there and I told her, I said, you know, I want you to know. This because a lot of people don't the reason that I'm I am, who I am today is because I watch body shape, and I copied everything y'all did. And I used to do it in my backyard and in my front yard and she just laughed and cried and laughed and cried and told me that, that was one of the sweetest thing that she had ever heard. And, and I was I was very congratulatory for her because she was one of the pioneers, for women lifting, and they used to call people muscle bound and used to say that women look like men and all that stuff lifting weights and she had endure all of that, and I lost her, and she, you know, I learned a lot of my technique from watching body shape. How you strike upon relationship with Terry Todd because he was Kenichi algae professor at university of Texas, followed his weightlifting career probably as low as you did, then he becomes, I guess a mentor for you. Dash father at a young age at why were you able or how I guess you're gonna say athletic ability because most highly successful pilots. Don't make the transition to the Olympic lifts amid teary teary actually came to silsbee to see me live, because he had heard that this fifteen year kid has squad seven hundred pounds and lifted seven hundred pounds. He's like, there's no way that that's humanly possible without drugs. He's like an his that's bullshit. Like somebody need to go down there and get them people in line. And he went down. He came to with intent on taking people to task over harming some kid, he didn't know me unbelievable. He had no idea who I was, and he came down, and it was just guys work that he his wife Terry and his wife Jan stat next to my coaches wife in the audience. They said. Right next to him. And he, he was like I just, I can't wait for this, the seat is this kid lift, and she was like, oh, Mark. That's him. Right down there. That's and she oh, you know, like, yeah, that's my husband is coach. And he likes so great. Is he how how much drugs is he taking, you know, kind of poking the bear? Oh, no mar Mark mortgage, not taking any drugs like his mom is sitting right over there like you can go to hurt. That's his mom Barbara, Jean. Right. They're sitting on the front and Jan win talk to my mom and Terry. Stay there and talk to her. They was cross cross information. And then after the competition, my mom sick told me to come here and she said, hey, this is the strongest woman in the world. 'cause John had talked to my mom for hours and they came down here to see you live. They got to see you live Nevada's coup. Jan straight out asked me, she was like Mark. You never took any drugs before have you and I was like drugs. I know I did I, I didn't even know people took drugs like for lifting like I mean, I know you take when you go to hospital, get sick or something like that the mass Rin some and that was the extent of medicine for enhancement. I had no clue. It was like so you never did any drugs and I was like no and as she talked to the coaches, and they would like got all of us together. And we went to eat little place, and says that blue bonded in those no big restaurants is only three thousand people there, everybody know everybody. And we sat talking and Tyrian that was the first time that I've ever heard somebody talk about me with reverence and Terry said that MS Barbara, Jean, I just wanna let you know, I've been in around the world of physical culture since the sixties since. Fifties. There's never been another human born like a son like Mark is different like if he never took any drugs, what he's doing is impossible. And that's a heavy state of heavy man is heavy for a kid to hear somebody talk about them, and Terry said that you, so you're like everything age appropriate. Like, you know he's he's fifteen. Yes. No drugs. Yes. And he's been training under the supervision of well junior high coaches and as his right. The end like that was it. So when I came into to salt, my sophomore year, my, we got a team like I was it there was nobody else on the team, and they started raising money in town. They went to the city of silsbee and said, hey, we need the by some weights. Foot high school, so all of the, the eighth grade and ninth grade, I was lifting more than my brother who was the strongest kid at the school. And he worked out with me every day since my son's on the beginning, and he's the tip a my little brother strong to me. Never never never. Never wanna hear that, you know, like my liberal strong to me. So we would we trained together, and even when my brother went and played football at NM. His nickname was shorty, but it was short for short strong because he had a six fifty debt six, if the squat fit six fifty dead, lift and four hundred pound bench, like I come from strong people and some of it is genetic. But also the fact that that's just how we work we just it was nothing else to do in my town. It was either go to the park, and play basketball softball or something or lift weights and everything was structured around going getting ready for play football. I was a better than average football player. But once I found out that I was special in lifting and throwing the discus and shop put football was second thought to me, it was like, man, I. I want to junior worlds. I was strongest kid in the world little boy from silsbee by then Sports Illustrated got ahold of it. They had this article called teenage mastodon and Sports Illustrated, and they start chronicling all the numbers that I put up in my improvement every year of until my senior year in high school. And once I got to plus eight hundred pounds in squat, then I was on, on the world landscape. Like people like Magic Johnson were commenting knew who I was and stuff like that. So I had worldwide notoriety, and I'm just a little country. Boy, from silsbee. It was my powerlifting career is the one that launched me into the world of sports. Washington thing to you to explain to what's what's the wheel. The Apollo will the pollens will eight of pollen was. Lift in, in the eighteen hundreds and he lifted a train axle and a train actual trains, were not what they are today when we say train like a car in the nineteen hundred eighteen hundreds, you know, was not with the car is today car way. Five thousand six thousand pounds of car wait about five hundred pounds back then this little trout, trolley train actual was three hundred and eighty six pounds the handle on it was. Three and a half inches in diameter, and it was fixed. It didn't rotate like a Olympic bar weightlifting bar. You go seeing the gym, and he apparently lifted this, which to Terry tied Terry ties those all bullshit. He's he just said he lifted as no way lifted that, but anyway, go it was, it was a lift people used to try it all the time. And then there was an American lifter named Norwich Chemin skiing, and John Davis. Both Olympia NHS and world champions. They both lifted it, and now it becomes the standard of strongman feats two thousand two, I came out of retirement, and I went and competed in the Arnold classic world's strongest man. And this is what I'm getting that. And I lifted it I lifted it three times and other lifted it. It was so explosive when you claimed it are snatched. It it was unbelievable. It was frightening. How fast that thank him off the grid shoot because you gotta understand. We're talking about this bar. I got pretty big hands and your water bottle. Yeah. So you Kate wrap your hands all the way around it. And his three eighty six give or take whatever four hundred but just the way that think ground and the dude just come up before you had struggled with it, everybody, everybody did. And then all of a sudden, because this he was making your comeback because right? Saying, hey, you call yourself the world. You've done. Do nothing. How you. But I just want to say Duda, how you could see the guys trying to know sell it behind you, but you watch film back. These guys thinking holy shit. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me toast about it? So during that time I was failing in wrestling, I just got back from Canada. I just got back from Louisville, I started to wrestle and was this, like got into the nation and started to get my footing. And things was looking good. And I was happy with my life, and then all of a sudden, the rug pulled off from under me because, you know, they was like, we got the world's strongest, man, you know, and this, and there was a couple of guys who, I'm not gonna mention their name because I wouldn't give them life if they was on life. Support started saying I shouldn't be calling myself, the world's strongest man because that's how they make they live in, and I wouldn't have world strongest man because I didn't compete against the world's strongest man. And there was some truth to that. But. I was giving more attention to lifting being in a world landscape, appro wrestling than anybody that was in the sport. And rather than bashing, it would have been it came across bed, if they man you should come to a competition and show, people who you are in both worlds that didn't happen. Trash-talk trash talk me. So now angry. They messed up and I told Terry Todd, I say, hey man, I, I wanna I wanna come out of retirement. He's events going like that too much. They paying you to wrestle. You should just do that. Unbeknownst the Terry, I go to vents say, hey, man. I can't sleep at night knowing that people say that I shouldn't call myself, the world's strongest man, and then shoot it was for you. That's how much it was for me. It was real to me. It was me it was my Dimity. I'm not I'm not superman. No more. Come on. I was. I mean, I couldn't sleep. I literally could not go to bed. And I told Vince, I gotta go and beat these dudes and he was like, can you beat them and almost cuss that him down me to, like it was like, I'm crazy. They get you can't change. You got to be here to fill the density when he looks at. You said they our beat him. And he said, you know what if you wanna do it? Go ahead and do it. He said, but I'm gonna tell you. Now, if you get beat he's like there's no place for the world's second strongest, man. He said like you, you win because your career depends on it and I'll know if a lot of athletes would've even done that if they was making the money that I was making a year and to say, you know what? I'm gonna go take a chance on this. It wasn't a chance to me. I wouldn't take a chance, really. It was me going improving who I was, it was me. Taking the glasses off. Taking the Cape off is hey, I'm not Clark Kent. I'm Mark Henry. And those guys found out exactly who I was, and I retired from, you know, strowman the next day I went for one competition to prove and let everybody know who I was. And I went back to wrestling, and it was the best thing, because it was like a shot in on. It was like, Mark Henry is truly the strongest human being on earth. And that is what took me to the next level in wrestling. I got two questions for we go there, because I want to go there when you prove it, you were the world's strongest man, then what those guys say to you, then they like, Mark, you are the man, like I never seen nothing like you, it was is the strongman world is a brotherhood just like wrestling. We might disagree with each other, and we might have beef with each other. But if it's us again. Them. They get they ask it. And that's, that's the same way it is in strongman, I've loved, strongman. But I don't think that the world strongman love me back and I had to get away from it. I don't think people got drug tested, the way they should get drug tested. And I was the guy that was always a hey drug test me day of the week. Twice on Sunday. I don't care. And I got up on in ninety six during the Olympics. I said that, and there was, I got drug tested twenty three times in one calendar year in twelve months, I had twenty three drug tests, there ain't another human being that ever walked planet athlete that got drug tests as much as I did. And I believe using through through all your tests that you pass for shoot. I know your hundred drug free when people say they are but they're not doing cycle again. I'll say contest clean, I flat out one hundred percent believe you and a story moving on you keep bringing up your talks with vets and when he gave a diverse call, and you go down to Stanford y'all come up with a ten year deal, and then you do things wrong trying to go over to Canada. Go down to Ohio valley when she called Lou. Yeah. And any man, you gotta get you attitude, right. And then you want to go prove yourself to be the strongest, man again, you're always talking to vents now twenty years later, a little bit more than that. But, you know, man over twenty years, tell me about you relationship with that guy house, develop and what he's meant to you, 'cause I watched that special one of the things I was watching that w w e network did on you and he's there with you. When you're doing the sexual chocolates of, and he's getting you to come into your own. We'll get there. When we come back from, you know, that the hall of pain and more stuff like that. But what is your what is your relationship with that, man because it's a very complex thing. And you once went into retire, he got five more years out of you. But there's got to be a lot of trust and respect to you. You tell me. There's a lot of, of, of trust and a lot of respect with Vance because Vince, always was a straight shooter with me. He never he never. I, I hear these stories about him double talk and people, and he never did that to me. And in part time, just put it in perspective. Vince had these we always talked about his fashion sense, and I think vans, realized that I was kinda off a long time ago, but he had these shoes, and he was like, I know you like these, these are stylish and I was like they look like clowns us, and he was like, what do you mean they look like clown shoes? He's like you can't talk to me like that. You're not afraid to me, and I say you can't what me don't be afraid of you for. And he just started laughing. Like that's why like you. He respected me as a man, and he knew I wouldn't know pump that I wasn't going to be wishy washy. I was gonna hide. Hi felt nothing like that. If I had a disagreement with him when I came into office, he what's wrong because he can see it. I'm pretty self explanatory for people that, that are listening, like I can't, I'm, I'm not a liar. I hide behind something if I feel a certain way and you around me, you automatically feel it to that, just the way made me and he knew when I walked in his office, and there's a, there's a level of love and respect that he and I have each other and. He is told me he loves me. I've told him I love him back and more than anything. I respect what I've learned from and. A lot of people in power had knowledge. Knowledge. Is the key unlocking anything that remotely as possible for any human, regardless of what color, creed religion, sexual orientation knowledge and teaching is the key? He didn't have to teach me the understanding of pro wrestling, he did. And I provide for my family based off what I've learned from this human being. And I have people offer me more money during that time of the wars. And I didn't take it. I was loyal because he was the one that got me into wrestling, and that was where I was going to stay. And he knew that because I told him is like it's not like giving the leverage. Hey, man. They offer me some more money. I didn't tell him because I wanted them to up my pay. I told him because I'm not going. Goodall be out, and that was it. So he knows who I am, as opposed to what anybody else would say. And we fall, we argued and he's had to tell me hey, that's not smart. And I was like, well, you didn't have to tell me I wasn't smart. You could've told me and he's like, but that wouldn't be me being honest. You knew that conversation with Vince, you know what it's like, yeah. He's telling you the truth from his perspective. It might not be gentle and coddling. But he's telling you his truth. And some if you feel like he's wrong, then prove it to him, tell them where he Rhone he not gonna fire you bitch, and moan at you because you prove them wrong. He won't you to if he's Rome. Tell them. Hey man you wrong? This is where you on. And then he'll go, okay. Well, let's fix that. Is that simple? But people are afraid of him and I'm gonna tell you right now. He will resent you. He'll hear this. I know you hear this. He will resent you, if he can't trust you to be a man that your word, and you'll character agreed. And I'm I'm not going to say everything because I know he's real private. But I'm just saying there's a certain level of respect I have somebody that's gonna give me the whole truth. And then but the truth. When I was wrong, he told me I was wrong. My wife is the only other person on this planet that's able to look me in my face and say, Mark, you're wrong. This is what I see it get out of your own head, and how you come up with a solution them, only to people as able to tell me and me drop. Everything and listen to what they say. So a great relationship exists talking with your buddies on your show. And I told him I kind of along the same very deep relationship with the guy known forever. I told those guys and manages far learning I learn more from working for Benchick man than it did five years college. You know, just about anything business is specified, life. And at times when you look at it, you know, he's been either the father figure brother whatever mentor and tour just SRI. Psychologists psychiatrists for how many got mad at my wife, Vince was the one. Hey, you may. You got married. You do as you said openly. She's right. Even when she's wrong. She's right. He said that to me, you look at stuff from how it benefits, you think about high benefits everybody else. It's like man. Stop shooting. I'm telling me the true, I don't want the truth. You're supposed to be on my side. I I'm not on nobody side. I'm I'm on. I'm on the side of truth. Let's talk about and I know you don't have all day, not present time you give me. Let's talk about maybe it was in two thousand two period when you came back, you were you were a house of fire. I guess my question to you is, maybe it was all onto you, did you like working hill, or maybe more. One of the things my takeaway away. Go back to your high school powerlifting days. When the camera's rolling, man, you were hey it up. High-energy and that goes into weightlifting, but it also goes and with our business and passionate emotions, I say emotions sell tickets you more. It's been you know, that kind of guy, but would you finally found you weigh the simple question, Hiller baby. Hugh. Because I didn't know I didn't know that is nice as I was that I was controlled by my feelings, you can make me angry, but you are not allowed to hurt my feelings. If you hurt my feelings, and you get on the bad side of me already have a hole dug with bags of lime around it for the person that hurt my feelings. I'm not shitting you one bit, you hurt my family. You hurt my like my soul. My feelings. Like if you have to go you have to go at that point. Honestly, I've never screwed. Nobody ovarian nobody can say more here, man. He screwed me on money. Lied to me. Nobody on a couple of Cajun's. I lie to my wife. She knew I was lying when I said it because I'm a not a good liar. And when you have the policy is because you did something stupid or Roan is. Is is hurtful to you your feelings, because you got caught more than because you did something wrong. And that's the stuff that has made me man that I am is I've, I've Vall from wearing about how seized of as a porter to how everything that I do affect everybody else. Everybody else do now. But my, my feelings is, is what is not allowed to be hurt. I don't get angry very much because I can't because, you know, it's not my is not good place for me. Anger is not a good place to me. But what about that period when you were in Debbie was coming back from a strong Steph was a couple of years later, but you said there was hatred there, I think it was. You didn't feel like you were preceded by the Debbie audience. And you just said. You weren't appreciated by the strowman community you had to go back and you as angry about that improve them wrong. And so was it the underappreciated that brought out, the it was it was like, man, what I gotta do to get some pretty here. Exactly every killing myself, y'all I'm killing myself y'all and you boom me and the same thing happened with Dwayne ragged sucks was real. They hate it rocky my via. They thought he was solved. They thought he didn't work tight enough. They, they thought that it was hokey. And Wayne hated it and you can see it in his face in his demeanor. He hated his hair. He hated everything about it. He loves culture, he felt like it was pissing on his culture for him to dress like that. And not really be that hated it. I felt the same identical way with how to fans rely. I was out there killing myself. I'm exorbitant other people's energy. I was the guy that called everybody two hundred and fifty two hundred press Vader, when he was four hundred pounds it hurt my shoulders, but I did it there were things that I did that hurt so bad for somebody to I was like the same. Same guy that had the compensation few weeks ago, and busted open about a Goldberg match. How angry I got it the fans for them having all Dassin? Going social media and say that, that was horrible. They missed up. Whatever I was like you'll respect these people. So the character from two thousand nine to two thousand thirteen the hall of pain error was me hating the fans it was me being honest with how fill the bout the way that I was portraying Vince got me to portray how truly felt and I told him I didn't wanna do it because I didn't want people to see me hate. I want people to see me angry like that because I was basically being what people thought I was anyway. If that makes any sense to you, because, you know, I'm a six four three hundred and thirty pound now, three hundred thirty pound black dude, and I walked down the street and women change. They purse to the other side, they moved to the side street. Like, I'm going to eat somebody. I'm a human being. And I didn't want to perpetuate a negative. I wanted to try to transcend the negative, and I realize that Vince was right that I needed to scare everybody, and he played a practical joke on me to prove the point to make me angry. And I was in Des Moines, and he ripped everybody, but he did it specifically to unlock the Munster in me. I guess the way he described I had a match against sin car, and I'm out there. I music plays no saying car. They play the music again. No sin car. I looked at the referee Scott Armstrong and I said, what's going on? I think he retained his knee, something, I, I don't know. He's like, Mark. I just don't know then somebody else music plays, then they play Raymond studio music, then they play Vader is. Is been retired from wrestling for like six years. They use at this point. Now I'm angry. I realize I'm being rigged and I'd say you know what ribs on y'all? I'm not going nowhere. I get the microphone and I started talking about how hated everybody issue shoot. You bring me out here and bears me in front of all these people dark match. And I was like, you know what's funny. I'll probably back that laugh, and let's see if you laugh when I get back there. And now I'm coming out of the ring, and I go to guerrilla is goes town. It ain't nobody back there. And I just start kicking and knocking should over. I run the vents office. He gone in the limo on the way to their feel. And I called him and I just his ass out. And I'd say you wait, I'll see you. You have to see me eventually, and I'm angry to the point where I didn't care. I call my wife, I I'm done no more for me. They, they don't mess with me for the last time. Call me in next week. And he was like a. Big big market coming to work. And I was I know I'm not coming to work. I was like you, you didn't ask my asked me last week when I called you, he's I just wanted you to come down. I was like. Vince, you hurt my feelings. I was like nobody's loud, to hurt my feelings. Nobody not you, not nobody. He said, well, that wouldn't mind tension, I wouldn't try and hurt your films. I'll trying to make you mad. I was trying to kick you in as and I was like our understand that explain different to me. He said, I want you to come to Baltimore come come come to miss TV. I didn't go to raw, so I flew to Baltimore for smack now and we sat there in his office, and he said, pull you know you lean for pull his glasses down, and he's like you're really mad. He said, oh, my God. He said. I want you to see something and he called the people in the Trump. And he said, hey played at footage from last week kinda lane. Phony can't smile at me. Half ass Mylan. And I'm looking at the sound comes on look at the monitor and as me, but I don't even recognize. Owning recognized that's me. I was angry. I was walking I was pacing. I was that was that would me. That was a monster. That was a mean personnel. Somebody, I was stumping mad, I ain't never stumped mad like a little kid. Never in my life did that that was probably the mad as I ever been in my life. And he said, if you can be that guy, you make a lot of money, which means that the business will be better than we all will make a lot of money. And I said, I can't control that he said, yes, you, can, you can control it. I'm a help you control and he did all the pain there. But that was just taking a shoot at work with it. Orbis years, my career and put me in all of a sudden. But when you look back at it, and I'll I record go. But I've seen emotion, I feel emotion coming out of you. But that was taken. I get what he was trying to do when he showed you foot. But when you look back at that, and he like, yeah. He ripped you or made you mad. But when you sell it, it's taking to shoot. But, but trying to work it at Rydin really a fine line of a little of both because I believe everything I did out there. But I did at that point. And I had to control it, right. Which was what I the biggest part of me, not thinking, I could, and I didn't want to perpetuate that. And with the understanding what I looked at that, and what you just told me it's, it's that was the intensity that he needed out of you and not about. But that's what that's what coaches do. Yes. That's what coaches do. They push your buttons. They get you to respond and they went championships. I guarantee you that there are guys have been coached by Bella check in Popovich. Pat Riley in the list of great coaches that you hear about. They didn't always do it kindly. Right. Because it probably was different. Some people you Pat on the back said, look, I need you to do this right there, and you might get it out of. But for me it took for me to be angry and see what that felt like again, it'd been a long time. Since I felt like hate, and anger. That's why do my best not to let myself get angry because it's hard for me to control that a what you've been in business loans. You have for for, for that light to go on, like that, after that many years like. I mean it's a wake up call. Right. And it's like doing this, and you you wanted to crowds respect. But now this is that moment when you do the, the hall of pain road, put you in the hall of fame. You found the money he was making money. But that's this is the real money. Yeah. Draw for business and your name is on the posters. And people are coming to see you get a whipping people wanted to see me get a weapon, and I'm like, who going to give it to me was my mentality. Like you came to see me get a whooping now I had every week, I had to change the narrative to stay Amory, and I remember my son Jacob dad, you know that kids as me school, are you mean like that does? Maybe there's nice man. You go. I remember that like it was yesterday, and I just started laughing because perception is reality. What people perceive you as is almost like people saying, hey, this is the exact truth. That's what people don't believe is the perception, like it's real, which is a wonderful thing in pro wrestling, because he creates the spended belief in the comic books that people write about Batman and superman and I are man and all of these characters. They write it in wrestling, you perform, there's no smoke. There's no streams that tie you to fly. You've when you fly, you fly expert when he flew flew when I wrestled, Dan, your brand, and he flew he actually flew and Raymond studio. They flew because I told them is long as I got a breath, in my body, you're going to have a place to land. Trust me. I'm not gonna let you crash and burn the big guys. When we collided we collided. I'm not gonna cry that you hit me too hard. I take let's go. I got the main event with undertaker the fact that there was nobody in the business that could put him in jeopardy. Except me it was a great, great feeling those four to five years, like did a lot and at the end I was still Mark Henry, but I was tagging wearing red with MVP and I would go and do. This and sometimes, and I will go back and forth. And at the end, it was like it was time for me to go forth time to go, and before we go, I think the year was September two thousand thirteen when you want your world championship. Yeah. Randy. Orton. Yeah. What made you? Can never thing Randy enough, because you only as good as who you work with rand is damn good as you know very easy, but I beat somebody to become champion. And that's what was even more impressive to the people that I was allowing the, the monster that I was allowing see the hate. For the fans, and I started to realize that I was not. Just entertaining them. But I was actually working for them. They needed somebody to hate, and I gave him that and a lot of people played a part in getting them that in the taint, but ultimately, it came down to me being able to go and do that. And I took a lot of pride in the fact that leading up to win world championship Randy. Be batista. I'm be big show. Be Raymond stereo. Dame brand. I'd be about seven hall of famers in about a nine month span back to back to back to back. I got built. I did the work but it was a Bill in my win. It was on the backs of the guys that help build me the stuff that big showing Cain did even the guys that were enhancement talent. That was a guy, Robert. He was a sound board operator guy. I don't know if people remember it, but he was standing up there, and I went up there, and I knocked all stuff down, and I grabbed him and I told him I said, man, I'm I'm gonna be charged up. And when I'm when I'm when I'm in a jazz, like that I'm strong. If I if I I'm gonna try to throw you as flat and safe as I can. I was like put your chance to your chest and just go. And I remember looking back at it. I knew where the padding was that I was throwing it was about eight feet away from me, and I told them to move it out further because when I get charged, I'm gonna be stronger, and that I've through him with one with a one half step and throw. He went exactly twelve feet. Almost a free throw this. Three feet from being from a free throw line to bask. And I challenge anybody to go grab one hundred ninety pounds dude and throw them that far. I couldn't do that when I wouldn't charge. So that's one of the guy giving gifts I've able to channel my power, and I will let le- I was able to use it the right way. I didn't end up you know, doing some stupid and ended up locked up for my rest of my life. But what, what it mating, tell about rainy? But what it made into world champion made new on a personal level or professional level for validation is the ultimate word. It means that Vince, trusted me with the company to beat a champion to beat every day to make every show to do every pre-tape to start the show to finish the show. Do all the, the pre tapes and stuff in between wake up at five o'clock in the morning. In and go to the radio station, go do to live TV, the go-to the children's hospital and then come to the building at one o'clock, two o'clock, knowing I'm gonna be in opening show being pre main main event and then do the dark match people don't realize how much goes into being champion. There's a lot of reason why championship title runs are usually short because it's hard to maintain that over a two or three appear when you see a guy like you that was able to carry the title for two or three years in a row. I don't know how the hell you did it and the Wayne and RIC flair undertake. I, I don't know how they did it. I don't know how y'all did it. I did it for four years. Y'all did it for like fifteen years and consecutive years. I had breaks in between my titles like. Dacian you speak of what you wanted from the weightlifters the straw, man, you got it from the crowd. And when you got it from the old man, the company, I mean, that was the ultimate stamp, and obviously hall of fame is going to go right there as well Dacian, which is what you seem seemed like, that's, that's what I worked for that. Yeah. I wanna be got the validation and. Holding that championship over my head. Pretty dance. We next to my kids being born. I don't know if I've ever felt more prideful and accomplish feeling people say you went to the Olympic Games one world championships. And I did that by myself to an extent with my body, but with wrestling, it was a lot of moving parts if all of them stars to lying for that to happen. It was a lot of work, but it was man. It was so worth it, if we're gonna bashing saying that it's work it's work, but blow it off his work at work. The business might be a work, but there certain things that are shoot. And there's a there's a reason behind, why a particular decisions made at it's all the things you just stated so to echo, what you said, hold of that, damn thing up. And when I got a chance to hold that summit on six different occasions, or I see or whatever it was. It was validation for your work for and your level of you ain't never going to be proud. If you ain't proud of being champion because his funny that all the times that I've been interviewed one I've never talked about. I can't believe that all of that came out. But I've also never fact, they're all of the things together. When our I was doing was looking for validation. I was looking for people to give me my just do. And if I didn't get it, my feelings got hurt which is openly. The worst thing that happened to me because it's going to make me go to the gym for five hours a day until I win. And I've been I've had my validation, like in everything that I've ever done, and it didn't all make me millions and millions of dollars wrestling. They're really good by me. And my kids are going to go to good schools, and they're exposed to a world that they probably would have never been otherwise, because the sports that I did, how lifting weightlifting and Stroman does not millions of dollars to be made in those sports, I did it out of love. Love and all I wanted was them sports. And to love me back. And like that's what I got from wrestling. I got wrestling. Love me back, your all of your wife just called. You gotta pick your son up. He gave me two hours out of your day. Got to do your show. Thanks for having me on your show. Thank forgive me, so much tab, as you like to say in closing or something that we didn't cover that you like to cover. Are we good here? The, the main thing is, is. I'm gonna say this about you. As far as all of the, the guys that I've been around in my wrestling career mean de low had the most fun with you. And we always joke around and stuff and de LA would be like man more. I can't leave the building. I'm like, what the hell you talking about? Let's go. And he's like. I didn't take a stunner today, and I'm like outta here. Man. Let's go. And he's like, no come on. Let's go. 'cause we both marks mean literally and figuratively. And we will always come and we sergeant show the but. Put it in. He's nah, I'm not feeling it. I feel it be so wearing a building. And I'll be talking to somebody and market data will come from behind start giving the karate chops on my right trap, like are getting me ready because that's where they're gonna place their kid to take better. And I'd worked. Not, not not yet. He started besides travelling since you're done. I think feels good. But it'd be a stutter and address. Time you still do that to this day. Thing like building. Snigger behind start. I know it's marketing stutter de low. We will give that appearance today in Richmond Virginia, we had a conversation about that, like, how much fun it was the be around the business during that the attitude era, and even now being older guys and having a relationship with somebody, that's you know, on the row mount Rushmore wrestling, and I don't know if you, you said that it's like you can't see the forest for the trees and like getting duct into the hall of fame in two thousand nine and don't always give yourself that validation that we were just talking about. And I hope that you are able to do that. Because like you special to the business, any been many. I mean, all of us had played our role as Ron say, no, you're row. We all had our rogue, but there's only one mount Rushmore the only. One top ten and people top ten bears of corden, the who they love the most or who had the most influence on them or whatever. But I've never heard a top ten then have you in it? That's crazy. That is that's that's where it's at man. I'm proud to know you thank you very much. Now, I guess when you put like that. Now know how all of your weightlifting team 'cause you don't talk to so thought about, like, Ed, but I never blow smoke. My ass. Toby time ago band. Asthma should man. Okay. Most people sounds kinda always say guy at the end that I was again. I always been crazy to buy mama said, man. We was raised goes, I don't care what you do. Don't you don't you ever gonna big Ed? Yep. We kept everything perspective. She says soon as you get some. It can be taken from you and I and I got proven to me when I got dropped on my head and you go from being hottest single feet on the sideline she had. So I kept everything in perspective. But I blow smoke at last, I, I got to say last night, I was at my hotel, and this was a short notice on his podcast. I'm honored to talk to you, and I was like, after I started trying to research that I cannot do market disservice by not having studied everything he's done, but he's done so much. I'm going gonna do the best. I can this asked to be an I I'm telling you, it is this, probably these favorite podcasts, I've ever done to sit across from you and feel feel feel guy to feel what I felt when you're talking, and to hear some of the, the knowledge that you dropped I hope our listeners, Mitch enjoys much as I did do it. So thank you. Appreciate you. Steam. Steve also show have a favorite four letter f word free. That's watch our privilege to introduce you to your new favorite streaming service. Pluto. Tv believe us, you're going to dig it Pluto. TV is leading free. Streaming television service watch over one hundred TV channels and thousands of movies on demand all completely free. There's also a ton of options for sports pro wrestling, and available Pluto, TV never ask for credit card. You'll have to sign up to watch free Puto TV as easy completely legal way to watch your favorite TV shows hit movies for free and the best part you down a little Pluto, TV for free and all your favorite devices today, including your phone, Roku. Amazon fire, TV apple TV smart TV's PlayStation, and anywhere else. She stream what are you waiting for? Never pay for TV again, by downloading Pluto, TV little keeping. To give it a go. Home Q some replicas podcast, right off and sunset before I do that. I wanna thank my guest Mark Henry world's strongest man, and WWE hall of Famer for having me down there. I heart studio's where he does his morning radio show, busted open. 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Why medically-assisted dying is very much an Indigenous issue (ep 244)

MEDIA INDIGENA : Indigenous current affairs

1:06:01 hr | 3 d ago

Why medically-assisted dying is very much an Indigenous issue (ep 244)

"I'm record from winnipeg this media and digital episode to forty four on this week's program medically assisted death. It's a controversial subject to say the least precisely why. Any effort to legislate as proven just as contentious so it is in canada for laws have been challenged and critiqued. Both in and out of court has either too broad to narrow or even a mix of both depending on. Who's doing the talking and whom they're talking about and with the federal government poised to rico five medical assistance in dying or made there are those concerned the law's expansion of access to it do more harm than good that the gap between intent in outcome. We'll see those already. Put at risk placed into even greater peril. In a moment. we'll meet one such critic who in a recent editorial argued that proposed changes to the law. Risks the reince corruption of the canadian colonial logic of eugenics the beginning of that extended conversation. Just ahead but first some quick. Thanks to those who make this podcast possible. Our patrons on patriot newark patriots like mel and jr each now pledging one dollars every month sierra leading a dollar fifty at two dogs. It's caitlyn at seven. It's russell and sean. And newly pledging at twenty seven dollars a month. It's elizabeth thank you all for joining our community of supporters. If you're ready willing and able to do the same head. Over to media indigenous dot com and click the pink support us but those writing or contesting the laws on assisted dying. A core issue is eligiblity who can access it when and with whose help and or permission. Roughly two years ago. A quebec superior court declared a portion of federal law unconstitutional for the way it limited assisted dying to terminally ill patients. Only that is to those whose deaths were considered reasonably foreseeable but the court ruled this requirement. Violated the charter rights to liberty and security of those whose natural end of life was not so imminent yet lived daily with incurable conditions. Marked by immense intolerable pain. The question of course is precisely who that includes proponents of bill. C seven say the new law gets it. Right opponents worry. The fix is worse than the problem among those raising concerns writer commentator andre dummies. Who as you'll hear also goes by the name of q. Here's part of what q wrote about the bill. In a recent op-ed published in the globe and mail we are less than fifty years removed from the end of eugenic sports in this country. Sterilizing those deemed degenerate and feeble minded viewed as a logical means to end the quote unquote suffering of hereditary disease. This still informs any canadians view disability. Not with the requisite humanity but through the lens of suffering and where the suffering doesn't exist. Canada can provide by misery. Ding the day to day lives of disabled people with our embarrassing lack of accommodation in public spaces the workspace medicine and society at large. I have friends in the disability community who have testified vehemently against the substance of bill c seven. They've made it clear. That disability is not the problem but the way society views and treats disability and yet this bill is being pushed through anyway and with those words of q still ringing in our ears considered this fact from stats. Canada not only do rates of disability among first nations and maty people exceed those of non indigenous people they do so even after accounting for such differences age and geography making may very much an indigenous issue and with that let's meet our special guest joining q. And myself brown table regular. Ken williams assistant professor with the university of albertus department of drama A cute welcome to media digital. Thank you so much for having me now a few paragraphs into your recent piece for the globe you right. If an option for ending my life with the assistance of medical professionals had existed back in my early twenties. I would likely be dead today. Yeah what's led you to that conclusion. Well you know. This is really tough to talk about. And i will say that you know it might surprise people to know that i. I don't like being the center of attention that i don't. I don't like being perceived even talking about things like you know. Disability and mental health is very very difficult. For me you know partially because in oftentimes jamaican culture. It's just not really encouraged. But also because i personally don't believe that people should have to spill their guts. They shouldn't have to tear themselves open in order to be heard. I i don't believe that the politics of personal trauma are deeply untenable but that being said oftentimes people just won't listen unless you're willing to share some story about yourself and it sucks at. That's the way it is but that's the way it is and You know because of my neuro atypical. Easy and some mental illnesses that i've been dealing with for a very long time. I am prone to having anxiety attacks and sometimes after these attacks depending on what triggers it and what state of mind and men. When they happen they can leave me with these really scary periods of suicidal aviation. Now the aviation is simply the aviation doesn't mean that i'm going to follow through on it but feeling that way also includes a lot of repressed memories and trauma that just sort of spill to the forefront of my mind and it feels like of just experienced those traumas and It it hurts. It really sucks. When i when i was first diagnosed i was only. I was in my thirties thirties. But i was dealing with these since my twenties. I didn't know what was wrong with me. I thought that. I thought maybe going psycho is something wrong with me. But i didn't really wanna talk to anybody about it. And i didn't know who to go to for help. I was living in windsor ontario at the time. And you know the the access to medical services in windsor is just abysmal. is so i just kinda did by thought i had to do which was tough out for the time being but i thought it was me being in windsor meeting away from family me having a really hard time with school i thought that might have been what prompting it when i when i came back to toronto ontario which is where my family is for the most part. It didn't go away. And i thought maybe that has to do with just my financial situation or maybe. I'm just like doing what i need to do. In life and i felt like a failed at school and failed at this that and a third by the time i might early thirties. And i'm diagnosed with you know a few different disorders and i'm still not quite financially stable. You know i've been suffering with this stuff for going on a decade by that point and my thought is if in the course of treatment one of those medical professionals had said to me that i have the option of simply ending my life. I'm almost positive that that would have been my option. You know and the tough part is this happens for many people that have mental illnesses that bring on suicidality ation what that looks like is when people get the urge to to die by suicide if they're able to survive past that initial event for forty eight hours then the likelihood of them following through on it goes down drastically so what we do know. Is that people experience these these times when they really just don't wanna be here anymore and they also don't want to experience the feeling of not wanting to be here anymore so it's like there's not really any other option for me besides to simply not be here but then you also have to consider and this is gonna sound really morbid. What's it going to be like for people to find your body. You know and i that that does factor into some people. Don't go through with it. But you know if there was a medically option available where it's it's clean. It's it's out of sight. It's a painless. Then why the heck not have had people message me. Since i wrote that article and i think maybe they got the wrong impression of my angle because my angle was not to say that nobody should have the option for medically assisted death. My angle was that if we are going to people that option than failing to accommodate disability is in a sense a eugenic system of logics and i had people say to me. Well i want to have the option of ending my life. If i have to suffer through this facet completely understand and respect that. It's just is that your desire to end your life or the desire to have an option to injure. Life is eh. precipitated by intense. Suffering is at precipitated by what you see as being in inescapable condition or is it a socially constructed condition. That's driving you towards that outcome because if there are social factors involved we also have to fix those social factors and that's what. The state of canada's consistently failed to do is to fail to accommodate people with disabilities. Feel to live up to what it says or its own standards. Most importantly failing to live up to the un convention on the rights of people with disabilities that candidate signed you know. Do you think most canadians are understanding disability to be inclusive of both physical and mental disabilities absolutely. Yeah okay. absolutely. I mean i think my friend who really helped and supported me in writing that piece when gabriel heaters and asked if i was interested in writing something like that i said i don't even know if i have a right to enter this conversation. I mean i'm most able and she said but you can stop at the identity politics. You have this ability to you. Get to have a in this. Do this is a conversation that involves you too and she asked. What are some of the experiences that you've had that you think would be relevant and i said well. It's hard to get help with mental health services. If you don't have the money to afford mental health services the first time that i was at catch center for addiction and mental health. The first time. That i Check in there for a nervous breakdown you know. I was offered some suggestions i was. I was offered a few weeks of counseling services which i did avail myself of it was a limited period of time and then after that if i wanted to continue with any sort of personal therapy there was some group therapy available which was nowhere close to where i lived and i wouldn't have been able to make it down there because a lot of these services are centralized in toronto and at the time i was living in the city of toronto. If you want to get a personal therapist like a If you if you want to have like a A psychotherapist you have to have group insurance. And where i don't have insurance to the workplace or school or whatever. Unfortunately there's just no option for me. I couldn't afford to pay somebody you know. Eighty one hundred hundred fifty dollars an hour so it was just a matter of toughing it out and don't have money for medication like just filled a prescription last week and it cost me. Three prescriptions together causing about one hundred and twenty dollars. And now it's a huge burden for me. But i'm thinking like if you're on a limited income especially if you're on like disability income you know that could be a a solid like third or quarter of what you're pulling in a month So yeah unfortunately there's not only one form disability and many disabilities are invisible. And that's not to say that people with physical disabilities don't have it really rough as well. Because there's the social stigma there's the ability to accommodate. I'm thinking of for example in toronto as one of the least accessible places in north america. You know we all we all go through our forms of lack of accommodation. Just that work comes to you. Some of these visible disabilities. It's tough because there's also the inner voice and society around you telling you suck it up and get over it you know you don't need all this let me tell you. That medication was poison. That still therapists are wackos and so forth. And you don't really need all this. Don't be a hate to say this. But i hear this one a lot. Don't be a mental midget. You know well this. I mean that was partly what was promising. My question was just how seriously canadian society takes mental health related forms of disability. And and and this is why people are saying mental health should be part of medicare and there should a farmer care. You know in other words state provided resources in in in that area. So i just wanted to ask you to For those who haven't had the benefit of reading your piece if you could just talk a little bit more about how the bill impinges in the ways that that that you're concerned it might and and part part of the challenge for me trying to get up to speed on this as it seems to be a bit of a moving target because i know the senate has pushed a potential amendments right. I mean what is it about the direction. Bill may go. This law may go that connects to your concern about if twenty year old. You was alive right now in twenty twenty one so my concern here. Is that the way that the bill was constructed in the first place it originally excluded people whose disability was solely mental illness. But the problem with that and problem with the way that the bill was built in the first place was that if you're defining the eligibility for made through the lens of disability then you're now defining what disabilities are and the more you try to restrict it the harder it is to remain within the boundaries of what is considered a disability. Because by saying okay. We're going to sleep people with mental health and us as you saying that people with mental illnesses illnesses are not disabled. And that's that's the issues at made is constructed strictly through disability and un itself had issued a statement saying. That was rather alarmed that there's a potential for what they call subtle pressure. I call it a constructive dismissal from life in the sense that if you are saying that people with disabilities are suffering because of those disabilities then the outlet for that isn't to create better accommodations to invest more money in medical research that can alleviate suffering where it does exist to make sure that people are financially stable. The answer is to say well. If you're suffering too much i mean. Have you considered this option. We could help you medically andrew. Life's so when you begin to construct a bill that starts off. Okay if you see if there's a reasonable time limit to your life if you if you can reasonably foresee the end of your life and you are suffering through that period where your life is going to end. Then there's this option available to you to end your life and that suffering at the same time i think that's fairly reasonable but then it becomes a matter of while. Is it only somebody that sees a reasonable enter their life. why should it be limited to them and courts. Obviously read without the quebec court. Agreed with that in the Glad to sean decision. So then you expand it to anybody who is experiencing a decline of their condition. That is not going to get better. And because of that type of suffering you should be able to lender life and if that's available to people whose conditions are not reasonably going to improve then you pretty much expanded to every category of disability but people who are healthy people who are able to people who are not quote unquote suffering are not able to access it so what you've essentially done is categorized people who are disabled as people who are suffering as who should be able to end their life and if that's all that you're going to do then it's in a way it's eugenicist logic you've created a circuitous route back to where we were a hundred years ago when we believed that there's a certain group within our gene pool or within within our society that's polluting the healthy population with their existence and the answer to that in late eighteen hundreds through the mid nineteen hundreds and in some cases even beyond. I'm thinking berta. This isn't it until the nineteen seventies which is to simply sterilized people and you know the the warning that they would use for it back then is to alleviate suffering you know we as a society are suffering. People with disabilities and people with disabilities have to be suffering. Would wanna live like that. And so while a lot of people were upset with me saying that this is genesis logic saying will may does not eugenics. That's not what i'm trying to say. What i'm saying is the social context in which we've introduced this bill in its amendments does cost. It's to a form of genesis. Logics that we seem to be unable to escape from can. I'm reminded of our discussion around. Four sterilization in the schedule in hospital. It was discovered that indigenous women were being coerced into I just after they had given birth actually into being sterilized Getting sort of a be course to take any type of surgery after just delivered to be sterilized than they would actually do. Some of the accusations that were Quoted saying that they weren't allowed to see their children until they signed this consent form for this type of surgery and some even said they never signed the consent form. They just verbally gave the consent because it was happening up until just a couple of years ago as well. So it's it's one of these things where i see the rabbit hole in where it goes with that type of legislation with made Because it's it seems like the sort of the horror scenarios you're setting up are not something that we have to imagine. They're actually things that we we can actually look back on history and say this is actually happened. Yeah yeah and it was weird that those are locations. Were taking place. I've i've heard that there were multiple cases all over this country Where where people were sterilized their consent or they were coerced into sterilization. Just simply bringing it up as a conversation piece during a medical appointments or even after childbirth that People were coerced into having tubes tied cetera. So you know we've had this really long shameful history of trying to control the propagation of certain populations because we believe that it progresses the racer progressive society. And actually. it's really scary. Is that people. Don't understand that that's where the term progressive comes from. It comes from this this movement in the late. Eighteen hundreds of which you know People like theodore roosevelt. And the wilfred loria government was also like a proponent of soft Eugenics in the sense that they would selectively try to like. We doubt certain populations. And that's that is. The origins of the progressive movement is Trying to progress society by making sure society is as strong as possible and this widespread consensus. We don't like to think about this. You know and it's still propagates itself and our way of thinking we bring our hands and say that we just don't have the money available to increase disability payments you know the trudeau government Fights court rulings saying you owe people money like what this country has done to indigenous people. It constitutes a form of genocide. It's it's a certain vehicle of human rights and money is owed machado governments like. Yeah yeah we don't think we should pay and continue to fight it. But i find it interesting that the government didn't have the resources available or their willingness. Or whatever you wanna call it to appeal the decision in quebec. So it's it's interesting. How all of this plays out but it. Continuously has this lopsided effects where people with disabilities are spoken over and spoken for that we talk about public services and the combination of disability. As if it's doing a favor for people as if it's done out of the kindness of our own hearts and not out of a social obligation to accommodate and to make sure that people are provided for to make sure that you know people's lives aren't completely ms rated that they're not discriminate against in the workplace and so forth. This is you know we. We love to consider ourselves as being a progressive society. And i guess you could say in the original sense of the word we are. Are you familiar with the or called dignity out of switzerland. Yes i am familiar. Yeah okay so then you look at that right and you look at how that is accessible in. It's it's gentle. It's it's nice. It's a combination nurturing on all these other things and their big thing was can you know how consent is consent. Would also you have to physically be able to complete the action yourself as kind of their bottom line i remember. I was introduced to it through a documentary. What was really glaring about it. Not glaring to me at the time it's glaring about now is that you look at it and it's like wealthy people get this choice of confidence and it's sold to wealthy people because because no one else can access it so you're looking so you go okay so this is meant to be only for wealthy white people who need to not suffer anymore in that suffering is only for poor people poor people you know. People don't have access to this but It seems that was we start. Getting into a law is It's always gonna be for the benefit of who right then. Society sets up this framework so Like you're saying the debate in the senate was a doctor has to give you all your options all your medical options. You can't they can't withhold and one of those options can be like medically assisted death. And so you're right Sums in the frame of mind especially very familiar with people Who suffer mental illnesses. I have friends who have suffered in in family and you know at that. State of mind is at the certain spot. You can say yes to something that you didn't mean to say yes to or yes is the option that is like yes. That's solves everything that i'm dealing with right now. So i was someone who was still on board with medically assisted. But i see it now as what i find is my right to something could easily impinge on the right for someone else to live. And that's kind of like the line. I can't cross if the law says. Hey can we've got all the all all the checks and balances in place you in the event this happens to you. You have the right then. Tanger- suffering. i know. I'd be very happy but then i go. Yeah but we can't even get people to wear a mask during the during a pandemic. How are we going ensures that the checks and balances don't impede on someone else's life. It's kinda like a matter of if it would happen. It's just a matter of when that would happen pieces written by a friend of mine. Dr heidi john's J. a. n. said She's been an ardent cket for disabled She's someone who suffers Their lives with us cerebral palsy And is just examined that whole issue from that perspective and his and his largely. It was largely a expired by The murder of tracy latimer and how people saw tracy latimer who don't remember was killed by her father because he felt she was suffering too much She had cerebral palsy. And so there was a huge amounts more than we'd like to say of compassion for the father in this case and not for tracy Because of how we view we view we have the privilege view of what another person is going through we. Can't you know chick late ourselves. You know is the amount of emotional labor you have to put you have to do in order to argue. These points You have to lay out your credentials right. This is something we've talked about with. Indigenous people and how the assumptions are made about indigenous people. And how we have to lay out our credentials to prove that we are not lying or not Trying to drift we are not you know doing all these other things And you had to say you know for your piece you have to admit you have to spill your guts and you have to do this in order for for someone to say to listen to you. And that is like an enormous amount of emotional labor that is in itself becomes another form of abuse and entertainment and for the sake of people who don't suffer from that you know. Hey let's see you do the dance for us. Then we'll believe you is very disheartening. Yeah yeah it's One of those like unfortunate side effects of this cottage industry of confessional essays at you saw a lot of like probably started around two thousand eight or two thousand nine and really ramped up around two thousand twelve to two thousand sixteen where people would talk about their own personal stories in traumas and tragedies and so forth and i think it came from a good place at the onset which was to shed a light on social issues that we don't pay attention to our or don't pay enough to especially when it comes to sexual assault and you know like a abused in the household and that kind of stuff and i. I understand where it comes from everything from eating disorders and mental illness. You know the way that society either. I treats her overlooks these things. I i understand that. But then there became i think a bit of print kind of a quasi like almost licentious focus on these kinds of essays where it and it really leaned itself really sort of unbalanced itself towards people that were comfortable sharing that kind of information and then it became a form of credentialing him where you have to lead with your trauma in order to have. The story listens to in the first place. And it's like well you know. I've survived x y and z. And i've dealt with abc and and have you in the psych. I mean yes but that's not what we're talking about or talking about. Is this specific issue. Not how our traumas color view of them. That's one thing that i wanted to be able to communicate in the essay but you can only do so much with seven hundred fifty eight hundred fifty words but it is something that i'd like to get at in is that i have friends that literally went and had sit downs with senators who are considering amendments to this bill and again just spill their guts just told her life story and moved to tears and the same people who were moved to tears went ahead and voted for the amendment to expand to people with mental illnesses. Whose whose sole condition under which the rookie made was mental illness and also struck down an amendment that was introduced by a conservative senator plot That would charged with a crime for offering maters an option to people that weren't seeking it that the hadn't bought it up first so i guess my question now is. What is the efficacy of this kind of essay anymore. I don't know that my article is going to change anything i. I hope of a few people's isis. So what those conditions are under which people are seeking medically deaf and hopefully we can make some changes there. I'm a little cynical to think that that's going to be the case. So the question is what is the use of all this. Because if you aren't want to listen to us when we're telling these deeply personal stories then do even count in this conversation at all. I mean i will say. I appreciate your piece. I was moved and reminded of things that have been been on my mind Chiefly if we're gonna talk about dying with dignity while we sure as hell better be talking about living with dignity. Yes yeah you know and dignity and depravity cannot coexist and and i think that's what you're getting at in your in your piece q. Is that there seems to be tapping into what you're saying. Can almost this willful naivete about how something like. This will actually be executed and practiced because as we know mortality and morbidity rarely if ever occur in a vacuum and indigenous people have a lower life expectancy as it is now right. Yeah everything's social. I mean there was a moment there were you know i thought. Oh yeah maybe kovic is a an equalizer and it's like now it's a social disease just like any other to berkeley losses. Oh exactly and a lot of this is framed in terms of agency and autonomy and choice. And i'm like well. What are these concepts even mean in this grotesque social order. That's just ribbon through with an equity right And and i cannot help but start to think that this is going to be leveraged and deployed overtly covertly as just another way to promote a razor disposability of digits. People i mean maybe i overly politicize everything. I can't help it. No look rick because we just saw this we just saw this in quebec. We just saw the live feed of young businesswoman being ignored to death in quebec hospital in. Yeah yeah so how. This is frightening in that aspect. Yeah yeah what is the right to choose in colonial society. And i just. I don't know. I'm always seeing it through the lens of okay. How would this help the interest of the state and its financial. Its financial was just going to say i. It's it's i. I hate to be cynical as hell but this does cut down on disability payments it does cut down on the need to accommodate it does have a financial benefit for the state. Yeah it's it's an. And i think the state being comprised of its citizens are are also like unfortunately buying into this because going back to what you said earlier q. And it's also in your piece about. We won't pay for life with dignity living with dignity. We want dying with dignity. But we're there's no way in hell. We're going to contribute to someone else's living with dignity it just we just cannot conceive it. We won't do it again. These are things. I've learned from Dr john's we refuse. we just refuse. We just won't do it like we live in socio economic order that's baked in precarity and penury. You know like it's and so to kind of just talk about dying with dignity in in a quote unquote neutral way or abstract way. You know in a political way. And and that's something. I really appreciate it. In your piece is trying to forefront the politics of this and intergenerational trauma low key. ptsd on a daily basis. You know we're we're being gas lit black indigenous people of color into thinking. We're the problem is it's we're delusional or or were seen as embracing victimhood. When we name our pain you know and yeah. It's not a huge leap in logic to go from you know we're talking about sterilization. Maybe you shouldn't be having any more babies so i'll tell you tubes to well you know. Maybe your life is so beset by trauma. It isn't worth preserving you know and it's funny like who gets to decide as you say. They're looking at removing agency by leading medical professionals. Bring up the issue. Hey have you ever thought of ending at all like that's just. Yeah we were dealing with also like you just google indigenous and then google next to it suicide crisis the list will be unbearable And and over and over again the the leadership keeps saying we keep calling for help and we keep being ignored so already. There's suicide solution by the state is already in action. You know that to me. I okay this i know. That's a pretty bold. Well awful thing to say but i can't help but look at what the outcomes are as opposed to intentions. I can't. I don't care about the intentions. I look at outcomes. An outcomes are this and if that's how you add when you get when you're getting this outcome that means you. Your your silence compliance. I'm going to sound like. I'm wearing a tinfoil hat. But there are bodies of thought out there that talk about genocide and suicide together as as connected phenomenon and in some ways you could look at suicide is the most efficient advanced form of a razor. It's auto orasure. I don't know it's it's really grim to think like that. But considering the fact. That fifty. Three percent of people with disabilities in canada loose in poverty and when you combine that with the multitude of intersections is disabled women disabled indigenous people disabled by people who are also women who may also be say trans otherwise like you understand that you can't simply look at it through the single lens of disability it's through the lens of disability affecting multiple communities. Yeah there's a reason why. The majority of people with disabilities tend to be living below poverty because disability has so many intersections. There are so many health outcomes that affect various communities that can either precipitate or gas bait disability. So this isn't just a social failure for people this. It's this little failure. Broadly just period and oftentimes especially when it comes to these aspirations of mental health conditions. Or it comes to these aspects of disability conditions that involve pain for example. Chronic pain. you can. You can see this is this. Isn't people falling through the cracks. These are the social gaps themselves. And i mean i was not going to have enough space and time to write all of that once glorious. But that's just what i was trying to get at is. I'm very fortunate few that is able to manage this with a strong support network and happens to be financially stable and not everybody has that opportunity. So why are we having conversations on mental health and branding it through a company that the following week lays off two hundred ten of its employees and cut them off from employer sponsored. Health plans the bill. Let's talk stuff. Yeah the billets helmet. God i freaking hate that. I can't even believe we let ourselves be content. You appending bills name to. Let's talk about mental health. The just the amount of free goodwill they've gotten off that makes me sick you know. I've talked to people who use wheelchairs about this as well as that. You know the sort of like the inspiration porn around people who use wheelchairs who quote unquote overcome odds you know and that becomes. The story of people disabilities is that it's a. It's a kind of suffering that you overcome. It's like the you know the horatio alger story except can't exactly pull yourself up by bootstraps when using a wheelchair. But whatever like. There's this narrative that were supposed to just overcome these odds overcome these obstacles as that itself lens to the amount of suffering that people actually go through. Because we're still stuck thinking that anything that you provide towards combination is taking away from people's agency to pull themselves up and to do for themselves met. It's a handout. Whatever this is why in the middle of the pandemic when people were asking for increased disability payments and government saying no. We're not going to do that. But nobody cared like everyone. Just shrug their shoulders and said okay ever going to do that. We hand off billions of dollars to companies that like the Payments from the media fund the took payments for the covid recovery fund the layoff employees the restrict services. They knocked austerity encroach on the public sphere. Etc they pay out money to shareholders in the form of dividends wall Retrenching their own services and the idea of giving more money to people with disabilities so that they could actually get through this period especially as unemployment the unemployment line is looking like a brick wall. The idea of getting the money was just like a now. We don't have to do that like that's just. I don't know. I had this idea that code was to simply exacerbate oliver contradictions. And it absolutely did but the the response from just the average person to all this stuff just the normalization of all this is made me so angry that it actually makes it difficult for me to write because my writing lately has been my editor chief of it's is pretty bleak but that's it's it's hard seat any other way right now isn't there. Isn't there some phrase about if if you're not angry than you're not you're not paying attention paying attention and you know we've just talked about the racial of the racialism of disability. Why wouldn't quote unquote dying with dignity or medically assisted dying also be racialized. Yours is one of the few pieces that that i feel has has tapped into that and another thing that covert has done but maybe hasn't pushed things enough to a tipping point is is just exposed just the degree of alienation and exploitation that the just infuses our lives. And that's what i mean about the precarity and stuff and it's just accelerated and intensified all of these fault lines in a really raw way that is to say covert and and i think given that. Why would this somehow be exempt from. Now yeah do you know what i mean. No i think we we started off. The my god is almost march. It's been marked for the last twelve months. Since since last year march we were getting this whole. We have to all pull together. Have all in this together and it's like no that's absolutely not true. You know what we all done is engaged in a collective delusion together that is absolute lie to ourselves in fooled ourselves together. We allow frontline workers in grocery are either we labeled grocery store. Workers retail workers frontline workers. Yes he labeled. Medical workers frontline workers and then proceeded to do absolutely nothing for them. You know we. We eat stood by as lob lies padded itself on the back for increasing its wages to employees and then a few months later. Hey you don't really need the high wages anymore. Come on now. let's and we're still calling them. Frontline workers you know. It's like an heroes. Yeah pill pinned to label on. People did nothing to increase their position. Nothing to reduce their precarity. You know as the rest of us sort of like sit back and judge. We call teachers frontline workers and then get mad teachers for not wanting to come back into classrooms as this pandemic is still ripping through us like it. It's just been this this act of collective delusion that i haven't seen anything on this scale before held up. Maybe a tiny little bit of hope that people would get fed up that they would see the heightening contradictions. And want to do something about it. And i think that that was true for most of last summer but now i think we've begun to endure selves to in a way that's almost like you know like a like a whipped dog hunkering down or like a rabbit shrinking down in a hailstorm. All right so just to Put some grist in the mill hair. There's a piece in maclean's by heli picasso From march of twenty seventeen entitled canada's halfway measures on assisted dying fail the mentally. Ill and i wanted to read some excerpts and get your response. She writes those significant gains have. Been made in demystifying mental illness and eroding the stigma attached to various diagnoses. There remains a reluctance to candidly. Discuss or even admit to an uncomfortable reality as is the case for any severe or chronic health condition for some recovery from mental. Illness simply will not happen. Not for lack of effort or will mind you but because the brain cannot right itself be at unrelenting depression a ruthless ocd psychiatric disorders which proved not responsive to treatment can like a terminal cancer slowly destroy individual without mercy and without reprieve a point will be reached whether as little if any quality of life and deterioration will only continue. It will not get better. Because in those specific extreme cases it cannot get better. They'll painful to confront the truth cannot be ignored. It's key to understanding the true nature of mental disease. Then she goes on to say to be clear. These individuals will and the pain bioethicists udo shoe link who chaired the royal society of candidates. Twenty eleven panel on end of life decision making confirms quote a large number unquote of those suffering from intractable mental. Disease will quote at one point or another commit suicide and it often happens in terrible circumstances unquote. These methods often further traumatize. Those left behind physician assisted death offers quote a better way for them to end their lives unquote and provides a peaceful controlled conclusion where no loose ends remain to painfully. Fray in this sense state facilitated suicide quote. Unquote is a form of harm reduction. Last bit here of excerpt. There's understandable apprehension about quote unquote normalizing suicide or being seen as encouraging or worse glorifying death over treatment and recovery for psychiatric suffering but suicide and assisted death are two entirely different phenomena and should not be confused as a center for suicide prevention notes. Suicidal urges are temporary and the act itself is one of desperation at their point of crisis. A suicidal person cannot see alternatives to their situation beyond death. They do not want to die but they lacked the means to help them live. Given help the center says they will choose help with proper intervention. Recovery is not only possible it can be expected field. That is is that an important distinction to make. Is that a distinction. You necessarily agree with or Keep in mind. Like i am label mate with all the healthy and i respect a hellish writing and i understand where she's coming from. I i fundamentally disagree on this one. We can talk about the reasons that people would want to seek assistance suicide but this again falls into the category of disability as suffering. Now that's to say that people don't deal with pain and don't deal with you. Know mental physical physiological anguish s. Not to say that. I deal with physical and mental anguish on a fairly regular basis. But i'm not going to speak for everyone in say that all the conditions over the deel deal with but i think that we make it very easy to agree with with made when we do frame disability through suffering that people who have schizophrenia. Suffer the people who have borderline personality disorder suffer cetera. And i have people in my own family that deal with borderline personality disorder that deal with and do things icty do with a disability. So do i. And i would be very insulted. If somebody described the my life is offering. I lead a very full life. I have agency in my own life and the people in my life you are dealing with these offices also have agency in their own life and they also need very full and i don't wanna see productive because that's just the wrong way to think about it but they'll lead lives that they feel fulfilled by so to frame it through the lens of suffering to me kind of falls back into that trope where we say that withholding made from people who are suffering is itself a form of cruelty and the thing is. How can you argue with that. When the treatment that you offer is one hundred percent effective. Nobody who ops made can come back and five years and say maybe you shouldn't have opted intimate. You'll never know the answer to that. And i think that There there is a case to be made for expanding made to people with strictly mental health. Conditions there is one problem is we can't do it right now because of the social conditions under which we live. We don't know what the alternatives are whether they work because you cannot separate or at least now we don't have the ability to separate the conditions themselves with the social conditions that give rise to or accelerate or exacerbate them. We can't do that because we don't live in a society that can envision yourself actually accommodating people with disabilities so it's it becomes a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario. And i find it a bit alarming. That people who claim to have the answer to this or people who claim that they're taking the compassionate route on this one saying that they have the answer because they know why it is people suffering and yet the privatization of stress privatization of suffering utter atomization and alienated of people's lives to have to deal with mental health conditions on their own. That you're responsible for your mental health while society continues to pile on causative factors tells me that if you're willing to jump right to the conclusion that this is going to alleviate suffering in you're not willing to turn that lens on the rest of our society and make it a responsibility to end suffering in a way that doesn't simply results in death it. It says that were not having a serious conversation. Right now is estimate well. It's like a perspective that's by definition as social right and again. I know this is perhaps obvious but on the other hand. I don't think it's been made obvious or brought to the surface when people talk about things like this is just you know this. This tension between the extent to which some view people as you say like as these atomic units self sufficient onto themselves versus the extent to which were socially embedded and affected by social relations. Like it's it's you know because we live in an era of neoliberalism where the state continually is retreating from from our lives. And as you say like we have to suck it up. It's our problem. It's our audio syncretic personal problem and so the state's going to help by helping you and your own life that seems to be the only time is prepared to step in. I my misreading or mischaracterizing. Well did she write that. It is a form of harm reduction. That actually made me gasped. Did i hear that correctly you did. In in a particular sense. She is quoting bioethicists. Udo shoe clink quote a large number unquote of those suffering from intractable mental. Disease will quote at one point or another commit suicide and it often happens in terrible circumstances unquote. These methods often further. Traumatized those left behind physician assisted death offers quote a better way for them to end their lives unquote. In this sense state facilitated quote unquote. Suicide is a form of harm reduction. Now they're the quotations are air quotes type talks us air i would like to. I would like to play that thinking the honestly we like to see that kind of thinking applied again to when we talk about in digits communities were mental health issues are rampant than we can give you a laundry list as to why social determines of health in listed those things go into that but when you talk about like that you know someone who is in. That state will in the pain. Don't probably agree with that. Is that yes. The act of itself is very harmful to the people who hate these were left behind but are you know essentially there to witness into a experience the pain of that that sudden death because it tends to start a cycle but you know if the person who is mentally ill nine years old because we have suicides communities. That are that young. You know that you can't put those two statements together and say oh this is this is the most calm are least harmful way. This is harm. Reduction allowing nine year old a medically assisted. Death is his ridiculous. So it's again it bleeds to That kind of thinking that there is no way out of this and therefore we must go this route of easing again. You know the phrase suffering in my experience. I'm going to say it's in my experience. So the data set is mi People who i know who suffer from severe mental issues at who do go through these cycles. As cubed said his suicide idealization and i've had to be on the phone with them like they don't want to go through with the at. They're usually doing that. Marching through hell to know that. There's something that that they'll just get through this somehow. It's it's not a matter of do. We end their suffering by at that moment when they're in the in in that pet and call that harm reduction and i don't think it's i don't think that's true. I don't think that is harm reduction especially not when there's multiple suicide crises happening. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah so i have trouble with the you know. The person who hasn't studied as much as the other person at i have trouble believing that everyone who feels this way. We'll do this. We'll act this way. I think there's a there's evidence that a lot of people do not want to act this way and looking for help to have to face it on their own and instead of going that route and trying to give them the assistance they need. We are giving them a different kind of assistance. Yeah resisting ourselves. Not assisting them something. I wanted to bring up about that. Royal society of canada report You know i. I know this is Perhaps simplistic perhaps reverse racist. No such thing that. I decided i decided to look at the the pictures of the people who were on this panel. There's one two three four five six. You know i know this is fraud territory. But they all at least our look white passing. I wouldn't be surprised if none of them were by talk. And this is another thing i wanted to talk about to like. To what extent is the psychiatric profession psychological profession predominantly white. And if it's mostly white. Which is what i would be. Guess how could that not also skew the discussion and whether or not somebody recommends whether you know maybe it's time to end your suffering. I dunno my my going too far here. No no no no. That's a. That's a very good question. And i i mean medical. Racism has been a conversation piece for the past several years. So yes of course. That's that's something that we ought to take into consideration. I don't know if you also saw that. The former. Ceo of dying with dignity who is woman of color is suing dying with dignity because of a pay discrimination apparently somebody that was that was hired as a subordinate to. I was getting paid more than the us so so. There's no working with dignity so apparently not not not not with with non-canadian nonprofits. There's there is no look indian. Unfortunately it's that. When i when i heard sean decision i remember a cold going around Where she said something to the effect of l look forward to being surrounded by friends and drinking a glass of champagne as she enter life. And i'm like what is wrong with you. Are you kidding me. If i was to. If i was to do that first of all there would be nobody around me like. Oh my family definitely not become into something like that you know i would not be drinking glasses pain and most of the most people issue deal. This ability are not going to be able to afford aggressive champagne as their final hurrah. A conversation is very sort of white middle-class driven and the mentality around it is very white middle-class driven and. I don't know what y'all but there's something about white sort of petty bourgeois sensibilities vestiges very disposable. That's just yet. You're just a bit of a burden on us. So we're gonna throw you away that has infected the thinking of our body politic that there's no communal sense of ethics like alleviating suffering is not a group responsibility. And if you're suffering on your well you know hey. I tried to help as much as they can. And sorry you've got to go but You know see you in the next life unless you can monetize it through long term care facilities and know their track record on protecting the people in their quote unquote care. So yeah so. It's a and you're absolutely right that i have have a grandparent that worked in these senior care facilities and they're absolutely wretched just horrendous and worked in the public when she said that she would never ever go to a private facility the public when she worked in show and she said it was hard enough as it was because as a worker. It's very hard watching elders deteriorate mentally and physically with hardly anybody visiting them until it's time to what they will not all sudden everybody shows up and that their contacts their most frequent contact with strangers people. They didn't even know before they got into the home in in the private facilities. They're treated worse than animals and she said that she. She has friends that work in some of the private facilities and have had to quit like have had to quit with. Ptsd practically because these facilities are so. Abominable just do not care about these people. And obviously we're not going to get through this conversation. Be able to solve this one. But there's something in our lack of communal ethics that guarantees these kinds of outcomes. And it's very you much embodied in that white sort of middle class pay bourgeois sensibility. Will i mean as one of our colleagues on the podcast. Kim tolbert talks boat seller colonialism. Was all about disrupting and destroying connection and kinship. Yeah i mean just look at look at you know. Our cup of the nuclear family like to me. That is one of the greatest. The bomb nations ever inflicted on society. But that's how we do things is it's like if it doesn't fall within our immediate interest or a personal interest is not of interest whatsoever. And you know i. I know that we're wandering a bit far afield from medan disability etc. Are we though like. I'm not trying to take it too far. I think that there's something that needs fixing their. Yeah can take his home after that. That's right now. I think it's it's it's were looking at again. This comes from. I don't want and i don't want to you know at the end of all this and i wanted to be taken away. We're not. We're not on compassionate to the people who who witness loved ones going through this and understanding the end of life issues. I think we're that's. I don't know if that's a different area. But in no understanding cancer patients understanding other people who are dealing with your intense physical pain management issues because that in itself is another. I think is another conversation Because it comes from compassionate reminds me that something else comes from. Compassion is the child's family services It comes from compassionate comes from. We don't want children to suffer. We don't want children to be harmed. And then we create a structure that just perpetuates it. We being canada we canada are in you know. I don't think i'd like to see an example where it didn't turn destructive and this is again where my my fear of what hasn't happened right extrapolating on things that are i can't say can point to an event or or fact says it's going to happen but it's that sense that we're gonna create a structure like this based on compassion where we will underfunded. We will under resource. It were decisions will be made under not care and with the amount of time and consideration that's needed but will be made quickly because we have to move onto the next client and then you see like were. A social system gets overloaded because we under resource it. Well what's going to happen with this. Are you going to ensure proper resources for this. Because it's it's not enough just for people to get that to be allowed to make that decision but are there resources available so that everyone can make that decision holy incompletely with the time necessary. 'cause i can just see the disaster starting to happen when it becomes a funding issue and again we can't we will not fund refused to fund living with dignity. Yeah how're we then go to deal with the opposite of that piece. I read in in preparation for this November twenty twenty globe assisted dying. Bill sends the wrong message to young editions. People advocates arguing. It quotes tyler white. Ceo of six health services and they say the expansion of made sends a contradictory message to our people's that some individuals should receive suicide prevention while others suicide assistance. And i i would argue that tapping into what you just said ken. That funding indigenous kids first nations kid on off reserve status non-status equitably not depriving children of a strong foundational beginning in life. That's a contradictory message just to send you value them and value their future when instead what we're seeing is people working really hard to make it easier to end life as opposed to support life Q. since you started as off i wanted to give you an opportunity to to close up you know. I hope that people understand because there was a bit of a backlash from people that thought that i was coming out against made period and i hope that people understand invited the article. It wasn't me coming out against medically assisted death. It was becoming out against the conditions that could cause medically assisted death to essentially create constructive dismissal from life and underlying the social conditions that have created or threatened to create. those outcomes is eugenicist type of thinking. I think that we need to more deeply interrogate. Why it is that. We have such a hard time accommodating disability. It's hard time making sure that people with disabilities are woman into the social fabric along with the rest of us. So listen to me saying the rest of us. As if i don't fall into that category myself but you understand what i'm trying to say. So yeah i just i. I really hope that people got the right message from that. And i hope we can have more constructive in stronger. Conversations that don't involve casting people with disabilities as suffering due to their disabilities talking about fiscal pain so forth. But i mean the idea of living in having a disability is itself a form of suffering. I hope we can get away from that kind of thinking. Cue thank you so much. Thank you so where do things stand now. Well shortly after we reported that discussion back on tuesday february sixteenth. Canadian senators overwhelmingly approved bill c seven. The fact they added amendment that would relax access even more than the government has proposed. According to a cbc news report one would allow people who fear losing mental capacity to make advance requests for assisted death another imposing eighteen month time limit on the bills proposed blanket ban on assisted dying for people seeking it solely on the basis of mental illnesses yet. Another amendment would require the government to collect race based data on who requests and received assisted. Dying what the liberal government will do with. These proposed amendments is as yet unclear. They want the bill passed into law by february twenty sixth in any event as a minority government it will need the support of opposition parties. None of which are likely to support the senate amendments reports to see where things go from. Here your guess is as good as mine. That's your media and digital for this week episode. Two hundred and four. Thanks again to q also known as andre dmitri's learn more about his work at hundred amis dot com a. n. d. r. a. y. Do misc dot com. Thanks to of course to ken. Williams assistant professor with the university of alberta's department of drama. I'm rick heartful. Thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again. Soon misting bureaucratic.

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