20 Episode results for "Keith Rene"

Cult Classic

Slate's The Gist

30:47 min | 2 years ago

Cult Classic

"Hi, I'm Mike Pesca. I'm the host of the gist and this right here. This is the first ad. You're about to hear on. The gist digest is brought to you by Goldman Sachs for insights from leading thinkers on the state of markets industries and the global economy listened to their podcast exchanges at Goldman Sachs. You will hear discussions on a variety of topics with far reaching implications from how venture capital is fueling innovation to the global shift towards renewable energy to the economic impacts of President Trump's legislative agenda and more here about the trends and developments shaping the world today and tomorrow that's exchanges at Goldman Sachs. Available on apple podcasts at your soundcloud and Google play and at GS dot com slash podcast. I cannot swear to you that they're swearing on this show, but there might be it's the kind of behavior I engage in. It's Thursday November fifteenth two thousand eighteen from slated to the gist. I Mike Pesca just when you thought Nancy Pelosi had grabbed back the gavel your comes Massachusetts. Congressman Seth Moulton and molten who's a decorated war veteran and a Harvard MBA in a young man on the rise. He raised his not his own hand. Oh, no. He knows to demonstrate good ally. Ship. I am personally very close with Marcia fudge of Ohio. He's my mentor when I came to congress. I looked around I asked dozens of people who could I use as a mentor who is someone who is widely respected who is wise who is intelligent, and who can give me advice and person after person said, Marcia fudge, she is the kind of new leader that we need in this party. She's incredible. She's amazing. She's from Ohio. She's wow. What a resume from Ohio. You say how many people outside the Dayton Cincinnati? Oakland or Columbus metro areas can say that but CNN wasn't simply satisfied to take that stellar resume at face value. But are you saying that people don't respect neces- Flosi? What's your beef? With Nancy Pelosi isn't just about DNC Pelosi. I I understand in her thirty years in congress. She is accomplished a lot for the Democratic Party. And no one's taking that away from her. Oh, it's not a beef with Pelosi. It's just a taste for fudge dudes got no grudge just loves him, some fudge. All right. This maybe not exciting enough to you. I'll gin it up with some fun headlines rep molten his Bolton don't get you. Cozy with Pelosi delivers the fudge nudge, Marcia fudge, former leader of the Congressional Black caucus sixty six years old five term member of congress. I can't really get that excited about either side of this showdown. I don't begrudge fudge. But I think the in-fighting will thrill Matt drudge because when a minority of the majority opposes the. Majority that usually causes problems look at the freedom caucus it weakens. Whoever the speaker is or becomes Nancy Pelosi so bad don't ask a Republican asking democrat ask maybe a democrat who just won the election. There is one factor that recommends, Marcia fudge, and it is that whoever the democratic speaker of the house will be that person will be demonized they'll be demonized in fundraising appeals on the Fox News channel and in scary scary commercials. But I think if that person's name is, Marcia fudge to kind of take the sting out of the charge Washington. Fat cat Democrats want you ways your taxes? They Chuck ju- Schumer and the despicable, Marcia fudge gel, Marcia fudge to go back to her Keebler tree and keep staring warm welcoming pots of. Delicious. Treats us grew it. It's like taking out a negative ad against teddy. Ruxton? Screw you fudge. You adorable. Name though, actually highly competent legislator from Ohio on the show today. We shall take you to another parliament across the sea where another strong female leader faces down defections from her own base. There is no fudge in play here. Oh, no. We're talking about prime minister. We're talking about. The prime minister. Yes, Theresa May Brexit, but I if you think democratic leadership is a cult of personality, if you think the Democrats have a confused brand, I give you Nexium Nexium as a cult that took members money freedom self worth. And actually branded them literally branded them with the founder's initials. Luckily, I can assert all that as long as I say this allegedly the CBC recently concluded a compelling podcast called uncover escaping Nexium. The host of that podcast and a former Nexium member join me up next. At merrill. It all starts with you, the U who's expecting a new addition the U who's building a new edition as your needs evolve Merrill provides vice and guidance that evolves with you they help you build a personalized financial strategy that starts with what matters most to you with the right balance of straightforward, tools and access to professionals when you need them, whether you prefer working with a dedicated advisor self directed investing or a Merrill, Lynch, professionally managed portfolio Merrill provides advice and guidance to help you live the life you want. Learn more at m L dot com slash you. Investing in securities involves risks. Investments are not FDIC insured are not big guaranteed, and may lose value, Merrill, Lynch and Merrill, make available products and services offered by Merrill. Lynch Pierce Fenner and Smith incorporated, a registered broker dealer registered investment. Advisor member SIPC in a wholly-owned subsidiary of Bank of America corporation. Nineteen ninety eight the defendant, Keith Rene are also known as vanguard founded executive success programs ESP a series of workshops designed according to its promotional literature to quote, actualize human potential in our about two thousand three rainier founded an organization called Nexium on its website described as a professional business, providing educational tools, coaching and trainings to corporations and people from all walks of life that is for Begum from the charging document that the US government has filed against rainier whose trial begins in a few months a few hundred feet from where I am now talking to you, and it's not just me talking to you. It's Joshua Bloch who is the reporter behind the podcast uncover escaping Nexium and a little while we'll be joined by Susan domes who was a member and is a character in the documentary. Josh Hello, thanks. Tell me about Sarah who you knew. As a kid, and then you caught up with and found out that she was involved in this thing. Right. So I grew up with Sarah I hadn't seen her in about fifteen years. But I kind of knew that she had been involved was involved in some bizarre self help group didn't really know the extent of it. I ran into her last year. And she says to me I've just left a cult and had literally had just left two months before. And I've been branded on my pelvis with the initials of the group's leader, Keith Bernardi. Yeah. So this is what was going on in her life. I think that's what she was telling everyone at the time and was hard to keep my jaw off the ground. It was incredible to hear and her story was that for twelve years. She was part of this organization. And in fact, she was their star recruiter. She recruited she was responsible for two thousand people coming into the organization was very very good at it. And she opened their Vancouver center. It's structured like a multilevel marketing company. So she was making commissions off the people that she recruited into the organization, and when it was going. Well, she. He was making, you know, twenty thousand dollars a month. Now, we I read the charging documents of the public phase of Nexium is sort of self help be sort of business resource. That's right. So they they run this executive success program, personal growth, professional development, people come they pay thousands of dollars for self-improvement workshops, sixteen thousand people is the number that Nexium has talked about in terms of people that have taken their course. So it has some kind of interaction with Nexium, and that's the kind of public facing side of the organization, and the vast majority of people that interact with Nexium experience it that way they wouldn't necessarily ever meet Keith Munari who lives in near Albany, New York or any of the other next leader's unless you climb higher in the organization. Yeah. The number of people that were part of the closer knit community of Nexium members that were mostly living in Albany in the several hundred and so when would one I start getting inklings that what they're putting in their brochures, isn't neces-. -sarily the real story of this organization. It's hard to know like for Sarah's account for many years. She didn't know that. Keith Barry allegedly had this harem of women that he was with. She thought he was a celebrate renunciation. And so it only people really operated in silos and a lot of ways and didn't understand the full extent of what was going on. Yeah. And it's part of the charging document Rene has maintained a rotating group of fifteen to twenty women with whom he maintained sexual relationships. And then a secret society was developed within Nexium called daas or the vow that works as a pyramid with levels of slaves headed by masters. So the genius of this guy Keith remarry who claims to be one of the great geniuses of the world is that he creates a self help organization, which really does help the self. But the method it does that also serves to inoculate the questioning that should go on so essentially creating himself he setting himself as a kind of a God. And. And it works. I mean, people lots of people bought into this. Absolutely. I mean, a lot of people bought into it. And they the very first day you they throw up bunch of bizarre stuff at you two. And some people say it is to weed out the people that won't be open young. You what is going to come next? So that that's when you learn all the rules and rituals and the handshakes and the bowing and the thanking vanguard so I was saying, oh, there's a whole swath of society. That would not take these courses and with you know, all through that thing. That's right say you're not open to suggest get off the stage. Yeah, what's the master slave relationship? Has that work has that worked for renewing the secret women's group was set up as a master slave relationship. And it was pitched to Sarah as a form of self empowerment is a way of taking her personal growth to the next level. There is a a strong strain of misogyny that runs through this organization and part of it is that women lack character and disciplined in the same way that men do. So when Sarah's approach and said, you know, women need their own group. We need to take our. Our self improvement to the next level. We need something with more structure with with more rigor. This secret women's group can provide that to you and it set up as a master slave ship. You you handover collateral to get into the group in the form of of nude photos, embarrassing yourself. Now, the FBI says at the top of this whole master slave setup essentially, a pyramid Keith area was at the top of it. And he had set it up to exert control over all these women below Keith renew. His lawyer will give you give that totally different account where he says, no, these are, you know, consenting adults enthusiastic participants in in in the program. And there was nothing really manipulative going on. It's edgy in. It's maybe strange to the outside. I, but but but nothing sort of legal as happened. Yeah. Here unlike a religion, and what is a cult. If not a religion that was invented yesterday. You know, there's this element of prostrate yourself before. And humbling yourself before the tenets of the religion. It's been going on for thousands of years. And then the other part of it was Heidi get out of these things. I mean running into Sarah, she just left, and as I talked to her I discovered that leaving is not an easy thing. Not only is leaving not easy. But she was in ten. On taking it down. Yeah. We got we had the, you know, we had access at that moment to really watch. This whole thing unravel in real time. I'm was she the hinge was she the the impetus for this. This fact that he's now Keith rainier is now sitting in a jail cell not far from here. It seems that way. I mean there were a series of people before her left the organization who raised the alarm who went to the media or went to the authorities. But nothing ever came of it in terms of an investigation into Nexium the FBI in their indictment. They do cite that the New York Times article that that profile, Sarah that has a picture of Sarah on you know, that was on the front page of of the brand they cite that article as one of the reasons they launch an investigation. So it seems clear that that it was a key piece key reason that keeps for nearly ended up getting arrested where did the reporting for that article occur within your process of reporting the story. Well, when I ran into Sarah in August, she had spoken with New York Times. But they hadn't come out with with the story yet. Two months later that they published that article and in the podcast size spoke to Sarah the morning that that New York Times article came out, and it was a huge day. But no one thought that he would be arrested. Yeah, he's maintaining his innocence. He's defending himself. And we think that the Justice system will will ultimately vindicate your personal accidents. Mark, and they are see on March twenty six two thousand eighteen keep spur neary was arrested as an expensive villa in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico and transported to Brooklyn, New York. He was charged with sex trafficking sex trafficking conspiracy and conspiracy to commit forced labor. The FBI would later add more charges, including racketeering conspiracy, claiming Keith had been running a criminal enterprise that co worst manipulated people to enrich himself. And as you heard his lawyers say he has pleaded not guilty. The most interesting episode. Well, it wouldn't have been so interesting if you hadn't set it up so expertly, but that interview with renews lawyer was great. And most of the time you say, well, why would a lawyer one argue it in the press. But I understood and I would hire this guy if I was charged with something and beyond wanting to hire the guy in saying, oh, he has a skillful pater-. He did make some good arguments. That made me wonder if all these charges are going to stick. Did he do that to you? I definitely walked away from the interview realizing it certainly not a slam dunk. And certainly I and I, and I are we already understand with everything that's happening with the metoo movement, and the frustration that that the alleged victims of sexual assault have trying to to win these things in court on those charges. It's very tough. You come down to he said, she said, you know, his arguments about the fact that these are consenting women that have agreed through Seattle Weaver dissipated in this organization for years and years suddenly turning around and saying, no, no something else is going on. You recognize that that they have a big hill to climb in order to win their case in terms of the sex trafficking and sex trafficking conspiracy. And I agree that his approach to it was not to be a bulldog. I mean, he made his argument in a charming way. And and you know, laid it out without getting super heated. So so I. I was certainly taken by the fact that that the trial's going to be really interesting which of his arguments. Do you think was the most inadequate or the toughest for Rene to eventually explain away which of the which of the sex trafficking arguments? Do you think that the lawyer did the worst job of trying to explain away? I didn't really hear adequate response to the evidence of the FBI present presented so far which is 'electronic messages. Text messages emails that seemed to put Renee at the top of dos that seemed to suggest that he had masterminded this secret women's group and made himself the grand master of it. And I didn't really hear what his response to that. The lawyer was saying things like look I could show you a bunch text messages where this guy has women falling all over him doesn't really get to the point. You're laying out. Exactly. Yeah. And what about the financial charges? You know, I don't I don't know. Like the issue is that so far the F B I has not presented and the prosecution has not presented their full case. So we don't know all the evidence they have the FBI the FBI and the prosecution arguing that essentially the going after them for racketeering conspiracy. Saying this is a criminal enterprise. They were engaged in a legal activity to to to make money and to earn power. We don't know yet. What all the evidence are going to present is. And so it it's hard to know where we were kind of the conversations happening in the dark, and now let's bring in first second someone who was there. A during much of this. Susan dones. Who is a character in the documentary? Hello, susan. Thanks. My question to us. Do you think this was a sex cult that was his motivation, or do you think this was a way to make money and the sex was just a byproduct or the sex was a means of manipulation what was the basis what was the fundamental motivation for Keith? Remarry once he was both. I think for him it was money and it was about sex. You know, I've talked to people who are involved in his his prior company CBI, and he was just a sexual then, you know, he's always groomed women. So that he could have multiple sexual partners based on the history that I learned about in. So I don't think Nexium in itself was a sex cult. I think that this is all that. When a lot of media outlets want to focus on his they wanna focus on the actresses that were involved or the actors that were involved in the sex but runs so much deeper than that they were involved in a legal activities that I refuse to be a part of one with tax evasion. One bringing Pash across the Mexican water. And then when you bring large amounts of cash into any company have to launder it. And then when people start to suspect that something's not right then. He would send his minions as frontline people out to manipulate that person into compliance, and if they couldn't than what they would just continue to do is emotionally abused that person until the person left. So I think for Keith it was about having multiple sexual partners. But he also likes to manipulate people who had money and one of the issues that I think he has is he has a gambling addiction and gambling addiction is actually very in keeping with people who think they are the smartest person in the room. If not the world, what kind of rebuilding have you had to do to have you had to see psychologists or psychiatrists has it hurt your professional, reputation, familial reputations. Because it seems like you were sucked in less than many others. Like you saw this right away. But still did your association with Nexium. Take a toll. Yeah. Well, all of those things I mean, financially destroyed it had to file for bankruptcy, which was very difficult decision for me to do because I was raised that you pay your debt. Yeah. But I there was just no way. And I spent I spent weeks trying to figure out how how to dig myself out of that. And silent was just kinda like it's like you have to call uncle and say, okay. You know, I'm going to bankruptcy court in knowing that I was going to bankruptcy court Nexium, Dexter favorite venues to come in and shoot people. And that's what they did is they came in as an adversary to my bankruptcy court and shoot me in bankruptcy court and had like two hundred thirty charges that they said that I did. And I had to defend all of that. And I couldn't afford an attorney. So I had to do that pro se, you know, which I learned a lot about the law very quickly. And I knew they were lying, and so I was able to point out all of their lives. And then I had people who had been through bankruptcy court with them in the past who we all work together. This is Nexium bankruptcy proceeding played book, you know. And this is. How you get through it without an attorney. So we figured that out in which share that with other people if that happened in the future, then I realized that I had been emotionally drugs. He's the mud, and so I started going to therapy into this day. I still go to therapy every other week. Do you know if you will be testifying at this trial that I don't know I have been contacted? But I don't know if I'll actually be on the stand testifying, you know, I left in two thousand and nine so there is a statute of limitations to certain things, you know, I I don't know if I'll be one of the witnesses. But if they want me, I will be there. Susan Jones was a member of Nexium is in the documentary uncover escaping Nexium and has done just that thank you for your time. Susan how you're so welcome. It would seem to me. Maybe I could ask you judge that the trial. You you have potentially hundreds of witnesses there either still in the cult. If you believe it's a cult or they've defected and can offer some prosecution evidence. What's it gonna be? Well, we I mean, the FBI talks about fifteen Jane does around fifteen Jane does who have provided testimony that you know, support. Allegations against Keith Keith renew. His lawyer said that there are one hundred women that are continued to be in dos that are part of it. And that he was confident that they would come forward and tell a very different story about what dos was again, we're waiting to find out how this actually will play out in the courtroom. How many of people on both sides are going to come forward and tell their story, and how different those stories are going to be Joshua block is the reporter behind these CBC podcasts which plug the CBC uncover escaping Nexium. Thanks so much. Josh. Thank you. Slate listeners we need your help. I'm Charles duhig author of the power of habit, and I'm working on a new show about how to solve the problems of life both big and small, and that's where you come in for our first couple of shows were looking for someone who's facing a big tough decision. Perhaps you're wondering if you should take a new job or get a divorce or maybe you're trying to decide if you should run for mayor. It could be any kind of conundrum, but we want to hear we're also looking for someone who's wondering how to be funny, maybe you're giving a toast in an upcoming wedding. Or you recently didn't open mic night in your jokes. Philp totally flat. Or maybe you're already running for mayor and you need to deliver a Zinger in the debate. Send us an Email at how to at slate dot com. That's each WTO at slate dot com, please include a phone number where we can contact. Act you and thank you very much. We can't wait to solve your problems. And now the spiel but got some good news bad news out of the UK. Here we go this woefully grins by person and high face as disturbing to so many. The good news is that Jeremy Corbyn was not talking about Donald Trump, the bad news for British Prime Minister, Theresa may is it was talking about her. And this criticism is all about Brexit. Brexit seems like an impossible task given the parameters at play the British people voted to leave the European Union because they didn't want the influx of people, but they would like to continue the influx. And especially the outflow of goods the thing about a trade partnership is that your actually have a partner, and the EU was never going to let Theresa May and the Tories leave on their terms, which to be clear weren't always clear and weren't always coaching. The Brexit vote was a national outpouring of patriotism plus protectionism plus a tinge of backward nationalism. And this, of course, once the vote was delivered led to the actual task of pudding. Some plans on paper. And as soon as that happened the casualties mounted back a few months ago Boris Johnson left. Maze. Government after these so-called checkers plan that was in may the month. Not the prime minister checkers is the country. House of the prime minister checkers is also much simpler game than what is demanded of Brexit. So the government soldiered on with no good options. They knew they'd have to put longer plans to paper. And when they did the shot hit the fan once again promises and sound bites gave way to tangible plans and the casualties inevitably mounted on the BBC to Montgomery, conservative pundit, and Theresa May critic called out fellow conservatives who ever expected anything better than what he considers to be this bad deal before them that is in the Tory. Best is months that this is a dog's breakfast. Few people deserve. To eat that dog's breakfast as much as eurosceptic. You are few deserve that dog breakfast as eurosceptic and peas now I want to be clear about ten or twelve years ago. A dog's breakfast was probably an above average meal in London. But recently, there's just been a culinary explosion. Thanks in large part European talent and the influence of Europeans. So now the dog's breakfast is actually worse than the local puddings still there have been defections. The Brexit minister is gone Dominic. Grab secretary of Brexit quit who could have seen that coming. The guy's got exit right in the name, by the way, the last Brexit secretary also quit can a government Brexit, if they have no minister of Brexit. Theresa May think so she says yes, she does. So even in the face of polling that show a majority of Brits. Now wish to stay in the European Union. Then again polling showed that they wanted to stay in the European Union before the actual Brexit vote. Took place may face down doubters and the opposition. Party doubters in her own party. Doubter is probably in her own cabinet during a three hour session in parliament where she took all questions here. She was questioned by the right? Honorable MP from Wellings borough a euro skeptic and professor of a very preoccupied name. Trying to speak. Is the prime minister aware? But if the media reports about the EU agreement are in any way, accurate, you will not delivering the Brexit. People voted full today. You will lose the support of many conservative Impey's, I'm millions of voters across the country. The prime minister reaffirmed that yes, it is Brexit, and yes, it's going forward. We will not rerun the referendum. We will not renege on the decision of the Jewish people. We will leave the customs union, we will leave the common fisheries policy. We will leave cultural policy on we will take control money. Knowles unfolding. We will deliver Brexit on the United Kingdom is leaving the European Union on the twenty ninth two thousand nine hundred ninety. Now, not all of the three hours of questions were about Brexit online. Crossbow sales actually came up, but the country is being roiled and maize tenure might be tied to this impossible seeming task who knows by the time you hear this. If you're listening to it tomorrow, there might be a vote of no confidence for Theresa May, which is fitting given that she was given a task of no possibility she's being asked to deliver on the will of the voters without incurring the wo- of the voters or her party or the opposition. If there's anyone who could walk this high wire without stumbling well, Theresa May. And that's it for today show, just producers pure bien, Daniel Schrader think the dog's breakfast idiom is just the cat's pajamas. The bees news the wombats top hat, the anti-terror space heater today, Rafael senior producer of slate podcast wants you to know that when leaving the house please be short to fully unplug your anteater heater. You never know. One of those can cause the whole house to burn down all the ants in it the gist. If Marcia fudge is named next speaker, perhaps his whip the Dem's could name Representative scooter MC, puppy breath, from Indiana's first congressional district. Scooter MC, puppy breath, Representative real working men and women of the mid west and by changing his name from p this Klaus sqi scooter MC, puppy breath, demonstrates the vision and competence people of America can count on paid for by the committee to elect scooter MC, poppy breath. Sit scooter sit good dog Predappio, do Peru. And thanks for listening.

Marcia fudge Keith Keith FBI Sarah I Nancy Pelosi Theresa May Brexit Keith Rene Brexit Ohio European Union Merrill prime minister Theresa May Goldman Sachs Mike Pesca congress Democratic Party congress
S11: Infamous: NXIVM Pt. 2

Parcast Presents

41:33 min | 6 months ago

S11: Infamous: NXIVM Pt. 2

"Do to the graphic nature of this cult's crimes. Listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of sexual abuse suicide and child abuse that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. It was midnight in Albany, New York when forty year old Barbara. Shea. Woke up to the sound of somebody frantically knocking on her door. According to CBC journalist Josh Block Barbara was stunned to see forty year old Keith Raniry on the other side. He was crying his words coming in broken fragments as he told her that there was a problem. He'd lost it all fifty thousand dollars, his foolproof investment plan had failed. Barbara didn't see how that could be possible. She had joined nexium because Keith was the smartest man in the world still despite her alarm. Tempered her nerves, fifty thousand dollars was a significant sum, but it wouldn't ruin her. But Keith. Shook his head. It was more than that. They owed the commodities broker six, hundred, thousand dollars Barbara was in shock they. Yes. Keith. said they owed the money because the accounts were in her name. She was the one on the hook for six, hundred grand, Barbara had come from nothing she put. Put herself through college and decades of arduous work. Six, hundred, thousand dollars was almost half of her life savings, but there was nothing to be done for it. So Barbara ponied up the funds and hoped that would be the end. It wasn't by the time. Keith was finished he bed and lost all one point, six, million dollars of the money Barbara worked her entire life to earn. Hi I'm Greg. Paulson and I'm Vanessa Richardson and this is colts. Original. Every Tuesday, we look at cults practices, their leader, and their followers. You can find all episodes of cults and all of the podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream cults for free on spotify, just open the APP and type colts in the search bar. This is our second episode in a deep dive into A. Cult called Nexium the group made. For reportedly physically branding it celebrity late and membership, and coercing them into being sex slaves all to satisfy its narcissistic leader. Keith Rene early in this episode will explore the early days of nexium will detail how and why Keith Ranieri. Convinced. To billionaire heiresses to join the growing group. Finally will cover how he manipulated them into spending their fortune on him over the course of the next two episodes will cover actress, Allison Mack's rise. As Keith, Ranieri's right hand woman and finally will detail Nexia GMS notorious collapse. We've got all this and more coming up stay with us. By nineteen, ninety, nine, thirty, nine, year, old Keith Ranieri had shuttered his first company consumers byline after it was hounded with. Of fraud and his longtime girlfriend forty, one year, old Tony. Tally had finally broken off their relationship for good fed up with abuse Keith had already moved on. He had a different business game in mind and a brand new woman in his life, Nancy Saltzman with her input. Keith was able to craft executive success programs or ESP like consumers bind line ESPN was a multilevel. multilevel marketing company except instead of selling discounted household products, keith new venture sold self-improvement Classes Keith claimed that ESP's technology could coach actresses into delivering Oscar worthy performances, athletes into meddling at the Olympics and filmmakers into producing Alfred Hitchcock esque masterpieces though Keith wasn't trained in any of these fields, he was the smartest man in the world with a to forty IQ furthermore he. He had nancy when Nancy met Keith. She was already respected in the corporate world for her supposed- psychological expertise. Her rolodex boasted executives from blue chip companies like CON Edison and American. Express Keith was well aware of this. When he convinced Nancy to open a business with him, it's likely. He expected that her deep pool of corporate clients would become ESP's primary user base. Base his hopes were quickly dashed while Nancy's clients respected her insights, one look at Keith's track record of pyramid schemes, and they decided that they wanted nothing to do with the smartest man in the world. Fortunately for Keith. He was the king of the pivot. He decided that if he couldn't offer high powered executives is self-improvement technology, then he just go after the combat. The pitch was simple. Everybody wanted something better. Everyone wanted more more success, more happiness, more of a sense that they were on the right path doing all the right things, Keith provided the promise of this. If people just signed up for his classes, he would offer them the hope of more according to Tony Tallies Book the Program Keith? Seductive. Pitch. Meant that ESP's first class drew seekers often at a crossroads in their lives, and for exactly the type of knowledge he seemed to have in spades. They were not easy marks, they were smart. People whose desire for self improvement was sincere. Keith took their sincerity and charged them up to seven thousand, five, hundred dollars for his self-improvement intensive 's which lasted anywhere from five to sixteen days after he had their money safe in hand class was in session. The very first lesson that ESPN students learned was how to refer to Keith, a Nazi she was called prefect and he vanguard. Journalists Rebecca's son and Scott Johnson road for the Hollywood reporter that Keith adopted the title vanguard from an arcade game in which the destruction of one's enemies increased ones power. In other words, the name functioned as an act of dominance. Once that was accepted, Esp, students were primed for another type of dominion, it came in the form of colored sashes. Keith impressed upon his students, the importance of hierarchy, like Scientology's ot or operating fate and levels. ESP's ranking system was set in stone where a student fell in. The group was immutable defined by the sashes. Members wore around their necks. A White Sash meant beginner student yellow sashes went to students who had paid for enough courses to ascend to coaching level orange sashes. Sashes went to proctors green to senior proctors all the way up the hierarchy to the so called ethereal sash. Only one ESPN member had improved his character enough to warrant it. Keith. neary. However, he promised his students that with enough lessons day to could progress up the hierarchy to move from one color ranked to the next a student I had earned or. Or stripes on their sash. So where scientology offered its members, the Bridge to clear vanguard gave the students the stripe path to a serial. However, the sash ranking system didn't only provide students with a visual reminder of where they were in their journey to ethereal. It also immediately showed them where they stood relative to each other. This was important because Keith had. Had several rules governing how a lower ranked student was to interact with higher-ups i. there was the special handshake. Normally handshakes occur on a lateral plane. The hands are at equal height, but Keith dictated that ESP students or SPN says they sometimes referred to themselves had to put their hand beneath that of a higher rank student whenever there to poems might meet. Secondly. There was the idea of paying tribute journalist. Michael Friedman wrote, for Forbes, in two thousand, three that when a higher ranking as one enters the room lower ranked. SPN's must stand to show respect. They're taught to bow to one another and to vanguard. All of Keith's mandated rituals and insignias of rank played a very important role. Vanessa's going to take over unless psychology here, and throughout the episode. Please note this is not a licensed psychologist or a psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for this show. Thanks Greg. According to a study led by researcher, non-pki, cowed Enberg a sense of an us can emerge in the background of specific actions that individuals performed together by giving his students, a uniform system of dressing and interacting with each other Keith. Created a sense of an AAs. In other words, he crafted a new group identity. Once students accepted their position as new members of an insular group Keith set about reconstructing their worldview. Keith taught SBN's that the world was divided into two groups of people, parasites and producers. He explained that why all human beings were born parasitic dependent on others for their survival. Some humans remained in the stunted state. They were perennial parasites forever, feeding off the success of others to sustain themselves on the other side of binary was the self sufficient producer these. These people were independent and driven enough to earn their success as opposed to leaching it from others as vanguard. The man with the the`Real Sash Keith held himself up as the ultimate producer is students wanted to leave behind their parasitic state. They would have to throw themselves into ESPN, curriculum. Wholeheartedly, the core mechanism of this curriculum were explorations of meaning or EM's. During em sessions, coach would take a student through an analysis of thought or behavior to find the root cause of the students negative emotional responses once the origin was located, usually in a childhood memory or some other formative experience, the coach would help the student diffuse the power of the moment by asking them targeted questions. In this way, explorations of meaning were very similar to scientology's auditing sessions. Keith. Promise that with enough explorations of meaning students. Students would destroy the root cause of the negative emotions holding them back from success in other words. Em's would give them effective producer like mindsets. Keith. Believed that if everybody had such a mindset, the world would be a better place to that end. He also strongly encouraged students to recruit. In fact, recruitment, not self-improvement through explorations of meaning was the main requirement to move up the stripe path and students were willing to do all of it. They went along with a strict hierarchy, the coerced explorations of oftentimes painful memories and the pressure to recruit all in the hopes that it would help them achieve their wildest dreams. They wanted to be Academy Award winning actresses. They wanted to be successful entrepreneurs they wanted to be ethereal. So they handed over their time, their money and their minds, and just like that thirty nine year, old Keith Rainier as new business was coming. Up Next, ESPN students discover the dark side of self improvement now back to the story. In the late nineteen nineties after establishing -secutive success programs in Albany. New York Keith Ranieri and his business partner. Nancy. Salesman started teaching their patented self-improvement Curriculum. During. These classes students were taught how to resolve their negative emotional impulses to become happier more successful people. They were also strongly encouraged to go out and recruit new students into the fold since he was their vanguard, Keith students did exactly as he asked non more effectively than prefect herself. In. One, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, nine, Nancy encouraged her daughter's nineteen year old Michelle and twenty two year old Lauryn to try the classes according to journalist Ej. Dixon. For Rolling Stone magazine a few years after joining ESP Lauren began a sexual relationship with Keith. It's unclear whether her mother was immediately aware of this after seamlessly pulling your family members into, Esp, she moved on to recruiting friends. Nancy, convinced acquaintance, Barbara Bouchet to join the group in two thousand. According to an article Barbara Bouchet later wrote for Frank Report Dot Com when the forty year old took her first workshop. She was managing ninety million dollars and grossing nine hundred thousand dollars annually in her job as a financial planner despite her enviable success Barbara like. So many of ESP's early recruits was going through a difficult time in her life, Barbara. Road, for Frank report that at the time, her best friend had committed suicide and she had. Had just asked her husband for a divorce. It's no wonder then that she jumped at the chance to learn how to be happier from the smartest man in the world. After taking a couple of ESP classes. Barbara was hooked six months after joining. Esp, she had entered into a romantic relationship with Keith remarry. However, her intimacy with Keith. Wasn't her sole drought. Esp. She was truly impressed with material and believed that it could change your life. Barbara wasn't alone in this regard. Several other new recruits felt similarly passionate about Keith's curriculum, and soon he was offering intensive Zinta lasca Manhattan Seattle Boston and even. Mexico. Edgar Boom, the son of a wealthy Mexican family. I heard of executive success programs while taking a similar self-improvement course called life skills. Perhaps seduced by Keith's purported credentials. Edgar decided to give the new program a try according to Tony Mattel Book. He quickly took to the classes in because he was in love with Nancy solvents, daughter Michelle thereafter. Edgar became one of ESP's best recruiters south. South of the border. He brought in Ana Cristina Fox, the daughter, then Mexican President Vicente Fox. Emiliano Salinas, the son of former Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gaulle Tari and Rosa. Laura whom co the daughter of the Mexican newspaper Magnate Alejandro despite the rapid expansion and recruitment by two thousand and two trouble was brewing in ESP, and Keith's aggressive tactics began to catch up with him. Journalist Michael Friedman wrote that after sleepless nights and seventeen, our days of ESP courses. A twenty eight year old woman from a prominent Mexican family began to have hallucinations. Then she had a mental breakdown, her experience wasn't an outlier in Alaska. Environmental. Consultant. Kristen Snyder suffered an even worse fate Tony to tally wrote that while taking a multiday esp course Christa began acting strange she the classes with bizarre statements she stopped sleeping because she believed Keith didn't need sleep and she wanted to emulate him kristen, even called your parents and claimed responsibility for the Columbia space shuttle explosion. After days of this erotic behavior. One of ESP's proctors came to a decision. They didn't try to remedy Kristen's outbursts. They didn't integrate her negative emotional responses through their patented exploration of meaning technology. No, they simply ordered her to go away. According to the Alaska State Police Christian paddle a Kayak into the middle of Resurrection Bay, and then she drowned though the police never found her body, they discovered a suicide note in it. Kristen wrote, I attended a course called executive success programs, my motion center, the brain was killed. I still have feeling in my external skin. But my internal organs are rotting. If you find me or this note I am sorry life I didn't know I was already dead. The disturbing contents kristen suicide note seemed to suggest that she was suffering some sort of psychosis. This might have been caused by our unwillingness to sleep according to researchers, fluffy waters, and Vivian. Hsu prolonged sleep deprivation can cause psychotic symptoms from simple visual somatic sensory misperceptions to hallucinations and delusions ending in a condition resembling acute psychosis. Maybe a lack of sleep did 'cause Christian symptoms, but it's important to note that the twenty eight year old woman in Mexico. Also suffered a mental break and there was no evidence she stop sleeping in a bid to emulate Keith. This suggests that perhaps there was something baked into ESPN courses that. That caused these episodes after all ESP's explorations of meaning made students hyper focused on their most negative emotions and memories in the hopes that they could rid them of their power. Perhaps, this fixation had the opposite effect, causing those emotions to feel all encompassing to the point of agony. If there was something dangerous about ESP's methodology, Keith Rainier didn't care to root it out according to the program Keith claim that Chris Snyder faked her suicide because she was involved in a drug smuggling ring needless to say, this conspiracy theory had no basis in fact, neither did some of the new stories that Keith began to spin about himself. In the early two thousands, Keith started to claim he was a renunciation. All sexual and romantic attachments. However, nothing could be further from the truth after all his sexual appetite was so voracious that a few years earlier Tony Tally had to barricade herself in the closet to stop him from raping her Keith's habits. Didn't suddenly change overnight in her book the program. Tony. The. Tally wrote that Keith was having sex with everyone in his inner circle. He was having sex with Pam K. Fritz Kristen Kief, and Karen UNTER. Einer his former roommates and Barbara Bouchet. was having sex with prefect, Nancy salesman and her daughter Lauren -ment in addition to the sexual gluttony. Keith, continued his penchant of praying teenage girls in early two, thousand, sixteen year old Danielle. Flora's parents gifted her an ESP class. They were vanguard converts and they wanted they're smart young daughter to benefit from the teachings that had so resonated with them. Before the sixteen day intensive class. Daniela had dreams of attending Harvard University and becoming a scientist so that she could change the world during the intensive according to journalists, Emmanuel Grinberg and Sonia Mogi Daniele was taught a mathematical equation that purported to prove that the world was going to end in ten to fifteen years. As a result, she was told that her efforts to better the world were pointless because the only way to change the planet was through. ESP, this likely demoralized Daniela so that when Lawrence Saltzman to forsake the rest of her formal education and be tutored by vanguard instead she agreed. But when Danielle arrived in Albany, Keith didn't do much teaching. In fact, he largely ignored her so according to Grinberg and Mogi article, the brilliant student cleaned offices to stay busy. One year. Later, the smartest man at the world's attention finely honed in on her, but it wasn't a teacher science. Instead forty, two year old keith kissed seventeen year old Daniele for the first time. While he brought up the prospect of having sex, he allowed that she was too young. However a few days after she turned eighteen keys apparently decided that they're over twenty year age difference was no big deal. So grinberg and Mogi wrote, he performed oral sex on the eighteen year old on a dirty mattress in an empty office according to the program. Daniele the brilliant student with dreams of Harford spent the next couple of years doing data entry cleaning houses of high ranking, SPN's and performing oral sex on command for vanguard. In part one, we covered how Keith embodied several traits on Robert. Hare psychopathy checklist. He demonstrated a grandiose sense of self manipulative tendencies, a lack of empathy and a pension for pathological lying Keith's. Preying on a teenage Daniela, as well as his rotating roster of sexual partners, further works to reinforce this hypothesis and according to clinical psychologist said Myers psychopaths don't engage in promiscuous intercourse because they love sex so much. It's more about boosting their ego obtaining power or defending against the boredom that psychopaths. Feel. This suggests that perhaps Keith pursued predatory sexual relationships to feed his bottomless need for adoration and entertainment, not just to satisfy his lust even worse during his numerous sexual encounters. Keith refused to wear a condom. He defended this proclivity by alleging that sex was a form of energy exchange. His ejaculation is acting as some sort of heavenly gift to the women who received them back on earth. His refusal to wear protection meant that some of his partners got pregnant as a solution to this problem. Tony. Tally. wrote that, Pam K. Fritz. One of Keith's former roommates and most loyal acolytes shepherded so many women to planned parenthood for an abortion that the staff recognized her. Despite, the abortions, the ESPN psychotic breaks and keeps habit of preying on his barely legal students. In the early two thousands. ESP had a respectable public face. Perhaps, it was this sheen of respectability that help Lauren Sara Bronfman, the billionaire heiress to the seagram alcohol. Empire. In Two and two, twenty, five year old Sarah. Bronfman's four-month marriage to Irish, horse. Jockey Ronin Clark was already on the rocks, maybe her fast-failing union was what caused the usually bubbly party girl to engage in some introspection whatever the reason when Bronfman friend, Susan White Recommended Esp Sarah agreed to give the self improvement classes. Try In the past Sarah had been somewhat nomadic in her career pursuits. She conceded to a brief undergraduate stint at nyu and then opened a skydiving business in the. Caribbean. But after so many wayward years, Sarah found her rock in ESP. She was so passionate about the curriculum that she encouraged her sister Claire to give the classes try where Sarah was blonde and bubbly. Her sister Claire was dark haired and serious where Sarah flitted from country to country in search of a passion in two thousand, two Clare was already a grand prix winning equestrian. Their differences were perhaps why Claire didn't take to ESPN easily as Sarah. had according to Vanity Fair journalist. Susanna Andrews during her first ESP class, Clare had a defiant air about. About her, she was angry at the world. She would tell people, she decided to spend the rest of her life with horses because she didn't like human beings and not just wouldn't do for. Keith because Sarah and Clare weren't just rich day were filthy rich their father. Edgar. Bronfman had an estimated net worth of two point, six billion dollars and each of the girls multimillion dollar. Trust Fund Balances Keith wasn't going to let either one of them slip through his fingers so easily. Early on in her time, the S P, Keith convened a series of one on one meetings with the recalcitrant. Clare, we don't know what they discussed during these private sessions, but the end result was clear. Clear was just as enthusiastic about ESP, sister was perhaps more. So because according to several former members of the group clear apparently fell in love with Keith with the minnows on his hook forty three year. Old Keith set his sights on the white whale in two thousand three, he pushed Clare and Sarah to set up a meeting with their father Edgar. This was a difficult ask after Edgar's divorced from their mother. Sarah. and Claire had spent the bulk of their childhood living apart from the Bronfman riches. They hadn't grown up in. New, York society like their older siblings nor had the attended fancy private schools. while. They did have access to impressive trust funds of their own. They likely resented their father for his early absence from their lives. So when Keith asked them to reach out to Edgar they hesitated but Keith was nothing if not persuasive and eventually he got the girls to agree. Eager to fix his strained relationship with daughters edgard jumped at the chance to participate in their passion, he signed up for ESP's specially designed VIP classes. The course was taught by prefix yourself at a carried, a price tag of ten thousand dollars. Fortunately, that was chump change to a billionaire. Not, only did Edgar handover his money easily, he loved the classes so much so that he began flying Nancy out to his estate in Virginia. So she could give him one on one ESP, therapy sessions for Keith, the future couldn't have looked brighter not only. Did you now have a billionaire amongst his clientele, but in two thousand and three executive success programs boasted an impressive three, thousand, seven, hundred members. However, there was one downside to Keats. Good Fortune, the tax man came calling. According to the program. The prophets of ESPN were such that Keith began strategizing how to avoid paying taxes on his wealth to that end, he decided to fold the company into an umbrella corporation to shield himself from direct ownership Keith called his new venture nexium. With a new name and a fast growing business. Old Keith received yet another piece of good news. When he discovered that Forbes magazine wanted to feature on him. He eagerly anticipated the article likely believing that it would usher in more stratospheric success. He was wrong. The Forbes article was a disaster of such magnitude. It threatened his relationship with a billionaire pudding. Keith's whole empire at stake. Up, next Keith Rainier fields accusations that he's running a cult now back to the story. In two, thousand, three, forty, three year, old Keith Ranieri was finally living up to his outsized expectations. He turned to self-improvement Business Esp into a financial success, boasting thousands of members, and in the process, he managed to attract an elite clientele with a billionaire amongst its ranks. So when Keith learned that Forbes magazine wanted to do a feature on him, he likely viewed it as a just reward. But in his excitement, he made a grievous mistake in the mid two thousands, Keith. Was Juggling intense sexual and emotional relationships with multiple women. This was no easy feat. Egypt, Keith's girls require their own special touch. Fortunately, he was Predator. Naturally adept at sensing and meeting their. Their needs however in the excitement of granting the Forbes journalist access to his inaugural circle, Keith failed to adequately manage the feelings of Clare Bronfman according to Tony Tally. Clare had always been overshadowed by her bubbler prettier older sister Sarah Nexium was supposed to be different. It was supposed to be the one place where Clare was out the forefront. She believed in Nexium. So heartily that she'd given up her dreams of being a champion equestrian to focus on the group full-time despite her sacrifices, it seemed to Clare that Keith and Nancy were making a big fuss of her older sister to the Forbes journalist feeling overlooked and underappreciated. Clare. decided to do something about it. In a reported act of retaliation, she called her father Edgar and told him that Keith had borrowed two million dollars from her with that piece of information. The wool was officially yanked off. Of Edgar, Bronfman is. Perhaps he'd wanted to believe that Keith was the ethical guru. He presented himself to be perhaps desiring a deeper connection with his daughters. Had even convinced himself that he was getting something invaluable from the ten thousand dollar classes. However, once he heard about the two million dollar loan, Edgar had his own comment for the Forbes journalist. He said I, think it's a cult and that wasn't all the Forbes feature was rotten with damaging information about Keith one section discussed the collapse of his alleged pyramid scheme consumers line. Another part featured details about the psychotic breaks certain. SBN had suffered after taking his courses. However. It was the Forbes journalist, Michael Friedman who delivered the death. Now, he branded kice of corporate. Sven Gali who's impenetrable jargon filled teachings were either pure genius or sheer horse manure. Instead of addressing the parts of the article that called his behavior into question Keith honed in on Edgar Bronfman's quote or rather he turned unclear Bronfman. He was furious that she told her father about the loan perhaps by Keith's demand both Clare and Sarah stopped talking to their father. But that wasn't enough for Keith. He accused clear of committing an ethical breach of violating nexium mission statement allegedly in love with Keith, Clare? was desperate to get back into his good graces. In other words. She was exactly where Keith wanted her. In late, two, thousand, three, Keith Convince Clare, and Sarah to turn over the management of their assets to fellow nexium member Barbara. Shea eager to please Keith both Clare Anderson sister agreed after all Barbara was the successful financial planner. So she certainly have the skills to manage their account. However, the sisters didn't know that the person who was supposed to be looking out for their best fiduciary interests was sleeping with their guru. Perhaps, this conflict of interest was why Barbara didn't raise any alarms when Keith convinced the girls to start spending their money at a startling rate. Their expenses ran the gamut. There was the one million dollars. The girls shelled out to refurbish prefects mansion. Then they paid one point, seven, million dollars for nexium headquarters and two point, three million dollars for a nexium horse farm. The girls even purchase a private jet and made it available to nexium higher ups. But one of their most outrageous expenses by far was the twenty million dollar check the girls donated. No questions asked to a nexium controlled foundation. Despite this gigantic outlay Keith wasn't satisfied largely because he didn't just see Clare Bronfman as a piggy bank for pleasurable pursuits. He also viewed her as a human war chest. According to New York. Times journalist Berry Meyer. Clare Bronfman was Keith's greatest legal weapon she financed and aggressively pursued long running lawsuits against nexium enemies. She filed criminal complaints against defectors from the group and even used lawyers to threaten its critics more ominous. Keith reportedly used Clare's money to buy opposition research on his enemies. He paid for dossiers of extensive, sometimes incriminating information on everyone from local politicians to his ex girlfriend Tony Tally. However, weaponising Clare Bronfman's money was far from the worst thing Keith. Ranieri, did with her millions. The worst thing he did was disguised as an amazing opportunity. In two, thousand, five, forty, four year, old Keith told Sarah and Claire that he devised an ingenious mathematical formula that would allow him to make millions in the commodities market. Since Keith was the smartest man in the world, the Bronfman sisters readily allowed him to make commodity trades with their funds. What followed was a bloodbath. Keith burn through sixty, five, million dollars of their money losing it all on extreme ill-thought-out trades in the commodities market. When questioned Keith had a ready explanation for his losses, he blamed their father Edgar. Keith, claimed that Edgar was in cahoots with the commodities clearing firm to steal the girls inheritance money. He said that Edgar was the root cause of massive losses both Sarah and Claire believe him. They needed to believe him. Sarah had been directionless before joining nexium. Even her friends viewed her as an airhead. Nexium gave her substance. It gave her purpose and as for Clare. She was allegedly in love with Keith with those incentives. It's understandable why the Bronfman, sisters. Followed their, gurus improbable tale. However they might not have been so easy to convince. Had they been aware that this wasn't the first time? Keith. Had lost millions in the commodities market. In fact, just a few years earlier, he'd blown Barbara. Boucher's entire life savings on similarly speculative trades. Keith's decision to essentially gamble with his followers. Funds might have been yet another demonstration of his psychopathic traits according to Hare's checklist. Psychopaths have a persistent need for stimulation, poor behavioral controls, and impulsively these three factors helped to explain why there's oftentimes a correlation between psychopathy and gambling? Addiction. Strangely. Enough. There's another trade on Hare's list that psychopaths unilaterally share. Namely, they're known to live parasitic lifestyles. Keith. warned his students at the world was comprised of producers and parasites though he held himself up as an exemplary producer is conduct proves he was nothing but a parasite, he had sex with several the women in his interest circle to satiate his need for adoration, and he blew both Barbara and the brahmins money and the commodities market to feed his hunger for stimulation. Despite the predatory nature of his actions, the female members of Nexium were. So in Keith's thrall that they couldn't see him for the parasite, he was furthermore whereas Leeches fell off their victim's bodies when they were sated with Blood Keith was insatiable, and soon, he decided to expand his feeding pool to grow nexium footprint. Keith did this by creating a new program specifically devoted to female empowerment called gymnasts. According to Scott Johnson and Rebecca sons article for the Hollywood reporter in late two, thousand, six, several dozen people filed into a hotel conference room in Vancouver Canada for a two day introduction to John s the program was billed as a women's movement within nexium. Though nexium had maintained Vancouver outpost for a few months, there had been no Canadian gathering as deemed as this one in attendance. That day were the members of next seems elite both Sarah and Clare. Bronfman. Had flown into town their private jet, furthermore, Prefect Nancy, Salzman and her daughter Lauren Saltzman were also in attendance. Though the weekend intensive was supposedly about teaching nexium ideas about female empowerment. In reality, there were other motives at play. The upper echelons of Nexium had descended upon the unremarkable conference room in Vancouver, because of one specific person Allison Mack, when forty six year old Keith Ranieri Land that the Fan Favorites CW actress plan to attend the program. He'd sent his shrewdest and most impressive members to lure her into the fold after all Keith's prices had always benefited from the incorporation of. Of talented women, next see'ums curriculum was built off of Nancy. Salts. Men's life work. The organization's operations were funded by the Bronfman sisters millions, and in Allison Mack, Keith saw celebrity spokesperson according to an interview given to the Hollywood reporter journalist by a former nexium member. Celebrity recruitment might have been another cue Keith took from. Scientology. Alison would be there. Tom. Cruise. figure a recognizable face that lent credibility to the cult, a promise of the success to be found by following ESP. In two, thousand, six twenty-three-year-old. Allison Mack was unaware of any of these machinations. All she saw was a group of young creative people who seemed to welcome her with open arms. It's no surprise. Then that at the end of the weekend session, when Lawrence, saltzman Ozmen invited Alison back to Albany to meet Keith, she eagerly agreed. As she climbed into the Bronfman's private jet to fly to new. York. Alison had no idea that the decision would her down a dark path from which there would be no return. Thanks again for tuning into colts. We'll be back next Tuesday with the third episode of our four part. Special will cover Keith's toxic relationship with Allison Mack, which culminated in the Hollywood actress allegedly branding women for his satisfaction for more information on Keith. Ranieri. Amongst the many sources we used, we found the program inside the mind of key raniry and the rise and fall of nexium by toning A. A tally with Chet Harden extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of cults and all of the podcast originals for free on spotify not only does spotify already have all of your favorite music. But now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like colts for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream cults on spotify just. Type cults in the Search Bar, we'll see you next time. Cults was created by Max Cutler as podcast studios. Original executive producers include Max Ron Cutler sound designed by Mike Romo's with production assistance by Ron, Shapiro. Carly Madden and Joshua Kern this episode of cults written by Abi Geli automaker with writing assistance by Abigail Cannon and Stars Greg, Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson.

Blood Keith Keith Ranieri ESP Keith Rainier Sarah Nexium Tony Tally Keith Rene Keith Raniry Prefect Nancy ESPN Josh Block Barbara executive Keith Ranieri Land Edgar Boom Clare Clare Bronfman Albany scientology Keith. neary Vanessa Richardson
S11: Infamous: NXIVM Pt. 4

Parcast Presents

43:34 min | 6 months ago

S11: Infamous: NXIVM Pt. 4

"Due to the graphic nature of this cult crimes. Listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of sexual abuse descriptions of sexual acts and child abuse that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. In April of Nineteen, ninety nine, thirty, eight year. Old Keith Raniry told his ex girlfriend forty-one-year-old Tonia tally that the next time he saw her, she would be dead or in jail. But Tony Wasn't threatened. She was exhausted her eight year relationship with Keith had been debilitating according to her book, the program he had cheated on her repeatedly and raped her at will. But when Tony tried to walk away, Keith couldn't accept it among other damaging tactics. He deluge her with passages from John. Milton's famous epic Poem Paradise, lost. Milton's book was about the battle between God and the Devil in his paradise lost letters, Keith branded. Tony, asked the devil, he accused her allowing her pride to driver into committing evil acts. He warned her that like Lucifer's actions had led to A. A fall from Grace Tony's attempts to break up with him would culminate in the destruction of her soul when Tony still refuse to take him back. Keith, abandoned poetry in favor of a blatant threat. He told her that the next time they met, she'd be dead or in prison as it turned out, the present guru was right the next time. He was face to face with his ex girlfriend toning tally. One of them was indeed in shackles. However, it wasn't the woman he characterized as a fallen angel on the contrary. It was the man who cast himself as an unimpeachable, God. Boy, I'm Greg Paulson and I'm Vanessa Richardson, and this is colts a podcast original. Every Tuesday we look at cults practices, their leader, and their followers. You can find all episodes of colts and all other park has originals for free on spotify over ever listen to podcasts to stream cults for free on spotify, just over the APP and type cults in the search bar today marks the last episode of our deep dive into nexium. The group made headlines for physically branding. It's celebrity late in membership and coercing them into being sex slaves all to satisfy its narcissistic leader. Keith Rainier. In this final episode, we'll cover the escalating abuse meted out on the women and Keith Sorority sex ring dos. Then we'll explore how actress Sara edmondson helped drag Dasa's horrors into the light finally will detailed Keith's flight to Mexico and his eventual capture. We've got all this and more coming up stay with. US. By two, thousand, sixteen, Fifty, six, year, old Keith Rene had risen to unimaginable heights. He had built nexium into a multi million dollar business that boasted a client base of billionaire heiresses and Hollywood actresses kice incredible success likely made him feel in people ended the glow of this power. He started doing more and more insidious things in the dark unbeknownst to some of his most senior nexium executives. Keith had carved out a secret society within his already cloistered community. He called it dos like Nexium, Daas was based on a pyramid structure. However wears next shelled up thousands of dollars to take classes. DASA's price of. Of Entry was much higher in order to join the recruited women had to become slaves at the outset. Most of Dawson slaves believed that they were joining an all female sorority that would help them become empowered. It was only after willingly handing over damaging blackmail material as collateral that the true horror of the group was revealed I. Today were commanded to Seduce Keith, and then they were branded with his initials despite this inhumane treatment. Several of the women in Dos were afraid to leave the group, the ruinous collateral serving its exact intended purpose. They'd unknowingly locked themselves into an unbreakable sexual contract with Keith. Vanessa's going to take over unless psychology here, and throughout the episode. Please note Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for this show. Thanks Greg. In an interview with journalist Sarah Berman Bedia. Sm Educator Carlyle Jansen stated that kinky sexual relationships can take. Any form, but the basic deal tends to center around submissive participants surrendering power to dominant partners. However, there should never be something hang over a submissive head where they have to do something or else that totally violates free will and consent. Keith didn't care about free will or consent by restricting the information he gave to recruits until they handed over their own blackmail material, he was able. Able to grow a robust pyramid of Sado masochism according to journalist Colin. Moynihan. The pyramid eventually boasted four levels, each slave reporting to her master on the level above as the sole man atop the pyramid, Keith was the grandmaster yet. Even this vaulted designation didn't satisfy his EGO. If anything DOS, Keith craved more admiration, this was evident during his meetings with his eight first line slaves. During these sessions, Keith required that a slave sit completely nude on the floor around him. While he lectured, them fully clothed from a chair on one occasion Keith, didn't feel that one of his slaves was being deferential enough. So according to first line slave, Lauren Saltzman, Keith accused the woman of being prideful and then he kicked her keys treatment of the women in Dos was abhorrent. However, the most disturbing sign of his darkening appetites was his plan to build a dungeon. According to Lawrence Saltzman Keith Convinced Rosa Laura Hanako, a wealthy first line slave to purchase a sorority mansion with a roomy basement. It was there that Keith intended to build a dungeon, but I he had to stock up on supplies, EJ. Dixon. Reported that Daniele Padilla another of Keith's first line slaves ordered thousands of dollars, worth of Beady Sim sex toys likely at the Guru's command these. These items included ball gags, shock collars, ankle shackles, and a steel cage. It was the cage in particular that terrified Lauren. Even before it arrived. She began worrying that Keith would one day ask her to climate side of it in a later testimony. She stated the idea was that of complete humiliation. You would just be in there until they let you out, it could be ten minutes. Minutes. It could be an hour. It could be days in truth. Lauren didn't need to climb inside a cage. She was already trapped by her love for Keith and like the slave who would one day be locked inside of the steel contraption Lauren had no idea how long her sentence would last learn had been a member of nexium for almost two decades. She was first recruited when. When she was twenty one, her mother Nancy Salzman was the one who brought her into the fold though her mother was one of Keith's sexual partners a few years after she joined nexium. Keith also began an intimate relationship with twenty four year old Lauryn Keith's decision to sexually exploit both a mother and a daughter was twisted. However, it's unclear whether Lauren news about Keith and Nancy's relationship. Relationship. But she did find out that her boyfriend was having sex with several other women in his inner circle according to journalist Colin Moynihan. Keith explain this by claiming that the sex was a hardship. He had to undergo in order to further the women's personal growth in addition to this of persuasion, Keith coerce, Lauren into having threesomes with the other women in his Harem. But when she. She asked him for permission to have a relationship with a man, Keith refused instead he promised Lauren the thing he knew she most wanted he told her, he would have a baby with her despite Keith's promises. The baby never materialized when Lauren pushed for time line all he'd say was that they would have a baby in between one and five years however according to EJ Dixon Keith. Keith later revoked even this vague time line one day after a volleyball game, Lauren jumped on another man while celebrating their victory Keith was furious. He told Laura. Her actions were disrespectful and they made him question having a baby with her at all in response. Lauren. Wrote Keith a letter in it. She apologized profusely not just for letting him down, but also for disappointing their theoretical child. Child who hadn't even been born yet. Her accidents weren't to sue Keith's wounded pride. He informed Lauren that he was going to have a baby with another of his many girlfriends in a later testimony lower said, the decision left devastated and yet she committed to stay with nothing. No relationship. No baby nothing around two, thousand, sixteen, Thirty, nine, year, old, Lauryn. Deepened her commitment to Keith further. Swore. Vow of slavery branded her body with his initials and began recruiting next women into dos in a later testimony. Stated that Keith hoped the group would one day grow big enough to have a dos slave in political office. Lauren never convinced a politician to join dos. However, she did end up recruiting DOS game changer. She was an actress named. Sarah Edmonson. In early two, thousand Seventeen Lauren SALTZMAN SAT in thirty nine year old Sarah Edmonson Vancouver apartment and excited note in her voice Lauren invited the Canadian. Actress to join a top secret international women's group called Dos. Sarah Trusted Lauren implicitly, both women were upper level. Next Yen's each doing their part to grow the group's influence in their respective locales, even beyond Nexium Sarah, considered Lauren, her best friend, not only Lord officiated her wedding, but she was also the Godmother to Sarah's young son for that reason when Lauren invited her dos, it was practically a no brainer. Sure. Sarah was a little disturbed by her best friends demands for collateral and she didn't enjoy making the videos falsely accusing her parents and husband of committing atrocious. But she trusted. Lauren. That's why she also agreed to take a vow of obedience and even more bizarrely to call her friend. Master Lauren explained that the honorific was little more than a formality joking. It's not like you're going to live in a cage or anything the levity set Sarah's nerves at ease in addition like several of the other dos recruits Sarah had. Had Long Been, indoctrinated by Janice. She had internalized ideas that women were weak flaky and lacking in follow-through. She enjoyed the thought of being part of a sisterhood of women who would help her become the strongest most ideal version of herself. But once Sarah handed over her collateral Lauren. Changed Sarah was forced to answer texts from her master within sixty seconds. No. No matter. The Our Lauren also badgered Sarah to recruit her own slaves so that she too could become a master. However, it wasn't the content of Laurens demands that worried Sarah, it was her tone. There was this new threat of condescension running through all of Lawrence requests, and though she had claimed that the title was little more than a formality Laren had begun. Begun treating, Sarah like a master talking down to her slave, according to Sarah's book scarred while being enslaved to Lauren didn't require her to live in a cage. She nevertheless felt shackled by the collateral. Her friend held over her head. That's why a few months after joining DOS when Lauren invited Sarah to Flight Albany to partake in an initiation ceremony Sarah agreed. According to Sarah's book on March ninth two, thousand, seventeen, she and four other women were blindfolded and herded into a house by Lauren. Saltzman. The learn refused to tell them where they were peaking through the little sliver of light at the bottom of her blindfold. Sarah was sure she was Allison Max. House. She'd been there before and she recognized the furniture. However, the former CW actress was nowhere in sight after some time walking. Lauren led the women into a room. Then she told. Told them to take off their blindfolds and stripped down to their underwear now that she could finally see. Sarah, recognized the other four women from events over the years at nexium. She also noticed that the room boasted a large massage table and that makes sense learn at told Sarah part of the DOS initiation ceremony would bomb getting a small dime sized tattoo of a symbol that represented before elements. Sarah had never gotten a tattoo and she didn't want one. She liked her smooth. Skin. However, her mind was somewhat said at ease when Danielle Roberts entered the room like Sarah Danielle, was a longtime next-gen. Also Dr Sarah was relieved that at least a medical professional would be administering her tattoo. Any feelings of ease Sarah had instantly drained away when Lauren pulled down her jeans and showed the women, the area about her pelvis revealing the mark. They were all about to receive Sarah was horrified by what she saw. It wasn't a tattoo. It was a brand, a horrible scar according to her book Lawrence. Mark. was raised red and inflamed like a hunk of meat hanging from the most delicate place on her body. Instantly. Sarah. Sarah knew that she didn't want that thing anywhere on her skin, but she couldn't leave Lauren had her collateral. Those horrible things she'd said about her parents, her husband, all of it was hanging over her head. So when Sarah was given a face mask to where for hygiene reasons, she put it on when she was commanded to help hold down the legs of the first slave Gabriela Sarah clamped her hands down, and then she watched with horror as Dr Daniel Roberts dragged a cauterize ing hand across Gabriella Skin. The process took forty five minutes for forty five minutes, Sarah listen to Gabriella screams of pain, and then when it was her turn Sarah, climbed up on the table and lay down at Lauren's prompting. She said, the words Master, would you brand me? It would be an honor. Then Sarah Tried her best to lie still as Dr Roberts traced liquid fire across her skin. In the aftermath, Sarah tried to make peace with what had happened. She told herself that it was what she had to do to be strong to be a bad ass to take charge of her own life and yet with a permanent mark on her body. Sarah didn't feel very much in charge at all a few weeks later as the brand began to heal. Heal Sarah was better able to discern the design. She didn't see a symbol for the four elements like Lauren had promised. Instead, Sarah saw four letters, I a m. then a k. r. that's when she knew Keith Rainier and Allison. Mack's initials had been burned into her skin forever on seeing that Sarah no longer felt powerless on the contrary, she was furious. Up Next Sarah Blows, the whistle on DOS now back to the story. In early two, thousand seventeen everything in fifty, six year. Old Keith. Ranieri's life was working to feed his ego. He'd convinced his frontline slaves to recruit beautiful young women into a sadomasochistic. Sorority. Dos in addition Keith was fleshing up plans to build a dungeon so that he could engage in even more coercive sex games. However unbeknownst to Keith as he indulged his darkest vices in Albany up in Vancouver thirty, nine year. Old Sarah. Edmonson was set on bringing his perversions into the light before Sarah could do anything. However, she needed to understand exactly what was happening despite Lawrence claims that daas was an all female sorority. Sarah. Suspected Keith wasn't final. She believed that the twisted directives about the collateral and the brandy all coming from him. However, she needed something to confirm her suspicions. So Sarah turned to mark vicinity and esteemed filmmaker Mark had recruited Sarah into nexium more than a decade prior however after his many years in the called both mark and his wife decided to leave hoping. Hoping to find an ally Sarah called mark on the phone during their long conversation. All of Mark Suspicions came pouring out. He told, Sarah that he was disturbed about what was happening to the young women in Albany. He suspected that they had formed some sort of extremist group. He heard rumors that some of the women in this group were being blackmailed into sleeping with Keith marks half formed suspicions proved the beauty of Keith's Kingdom of horrors. Every section of nexium operated an information silo, the right hand never knowing what the left was doing. Even though mark was an upper level next in, he only had fragments, bits and pieces of the puzzle that was dos. Keith's information silo depended on his members, not speaking with each other when mark breached the silo by sharing his suspicions with Sarah, her eyes were opened according to her book scarred. In that moment, she realized that she'd been brought into Dasa's slave not to join a sisterhood of empowered women. But to be one of the women forced to have sex with Keith or more likely to recruit pretty young women for Keith to have at his disposal, it was at that point that Sarah decided to go to the FBI. For an hour, Sarah told an agent at the FBI would had been done to her. She explained about her years in Nexium and she tried break down the predatory nightmare that was dos then according to journalist. Berry. Meyer. Sarah filed a complaint with the New York State Department of Health Against Daniel. Roberts. The licensed osteopath who had performed the branding. Finally Sarah took her story to the press. There was nothing she could do about the branding, but she'd be damned if she let anyone else be victimized like she was. So she contacted Frank PARLATO frank was journalist, but that didn't mean he was impartial on the contrary. He had an axe to grind with Keith Ranieri according to Vice, journalist? Ten years earlier. Keith had hired frank to go after next em's enemies. However, the more digging frank did on nexium critics. The more questions he had about Keith. Raniry more specifically frank didn't understand how Keith had lost millions of the Bronfman. Sisters. Fortune on commodity trades when frank started asking his two most lucrative cash cows, intrusive questions, Keith fired him. But as usual, Keith couldn't just break up with Frank. He had to obliterate the people who dared challenge him so like he'd done with Barbara Bouchet and Tony Tally, Keith sued. Sued. Frank that was a mistake and added blogger frank had several online outlets to his name. But more. Importantly, he was relentless. Keith claimed he didn't sleep frank. Really didn't sleep. He stayed up all hours every day writing article after derogatory article about the smartest man in the world, and even after ten years, Franks fury hadn't cooled. So in two thousand, seventeen when Sarah Edmonson told him Keith had graduated from bilking heiresses to branding women, he jumped at the chance to publish the story. So he could watch his nemesis burn. Frank was the first journalist to report that a group of the next him was branding women, and yet while his articles did caused some people to leave the croup, the bulk of Nexium members stayed labeling Sarah. As a week woman having a Tantrum. The responsive law enforcement officials was similarly disappointing. They initially did little to investigate Sarah's allegations. So she knew she had to ramp up her efforts while frank could be dismissed by Nexium as. As nothing more than a disgruntled ex employee, it was hard to write off the New York Times for that reason, Sarah reached out to journalists Berry Meyer and told him his story ELEC Tober seventeenth two, thousand, Seventeen Myers article titled Inside a secretive. Group. Where women are branded ran on the front page of the New York Times after the prestige outlet legitimising the mecom tail. The rest of the mainstream media went wild the story. Story had everything celebrities, sex slaves, billionaires, and all of it revolving around a then gully. Ask, Guru. It was a click bait wet dream and all the outlets wanted their piece of the Juicy Pie ABC's twenty covered the story interviewing mark, B sentate Tony Tally and Sarah Edmonson in the process vice did a piece featuring frank per lotto dynasty actress, Catherine Oxford. Went on Meghan, Kelly's morning show and told the world that she feared. feared. Her daughter India was branded dos slave and at home everybody read and clicked and watched with bated breath waiting for the next morsel to drop the national attention. Finally spurred the FBI to formally open a criminal investigation into nexium according to scarred. They called Sarah back in and listen to her story this time allotting her a full two and a half day period to tell her tale as for fifty seven year old Keith. Have watched everything with trepidation. He had always craved the spotlight, but now he found its glare unforgiving, even worse now exposed, he was bleeding members after all the bulk of axioms had no idea about dos even prefect whose daughter Lauren was a first line slave had been the dark journalists. EJ Dixon reported that when she found out, she was furious that her daughter and other women got Keith's initials branded next to their vaginas and yet she and much of Keith's inner circle chose to stay Keith tried to use their loyalty to save his empire from ruin. Journalist EJ Dixon reported that internally, Keith scapegoated his inner circle. He told them to disavow his connections to dos claim that they had branded themselves of their own volition. He also encouraged them to make a fake website with the Greek letters Bar Alpha, my his rationale was that they could tell the authorities that those were the letters in the brand, not his initials. Externally, Keith released a public statement denying all knowledge. Of Dos, according to EJ Dixon, he accused the media of shaming the women for engaging in consensual activities and spearheading a a campaign against the rights of women and alternative lifestyles at one point in the email. Keith, even compared DOS members to authors of the Declaration of independence despite his assertions of their independence. Keith's first line slaves were still wholly committed to his interests above their own. That's why a later interview with New York Times journalist Vanessa. Gregorio. Allison Mack claimed that she came up with the brand stating people get drunk and tattooed on their ankle bff or tramp stamp. I have to tattoos and they mean nothing according to a Gregorian. Allison claimed that she wanted to do something more meaningful that took guts in the interview with Gregoria. DAS, an interview that Keith arranged. Allison also assumed responsibility for the five hundred calorie diets. All DOS members stuck to they weren't instituted. So women would fit Keith sexual ideal. Instead, she claimed that she wanted to save women from the trap of emotional eating as for the requirement that DAW slaves refrained from orgasm that was. So they could quote he'll their negative sexual patterns or and Saltzman was equally protective of. Of, Keith. She told everybody that would listen that. He knew nothing about dos according to. EJ. Dixon, emboldened by laurens loyalty Keith once again, dangled the prospect of having a child with her even accompanying her to doctor's office visits. So she could receive fertility treatments at the time. Lauren was thrilled. But when Keith refused to get a blood test, she realized that his true intent was to keep her doing what she was doing better than anyone else at the time which was going out and legitimizing dos. And despite this realization Lawrence stayed nearly all of key's inner circle did this even though they had to know that taking credit for dos, a group that branded unwilling women could possibly land them in jail. This seemingly irrational behavior might have been due to the sunk cost effect- according to psychologist how are Arcs? This phenomenon is manifested in a greater tendency to continue an endeavour wants an investment in money effort or time has been made. This was certainly true of Keith's inner circle. Allison. Mack had practically abandoned her acting career to further the goals of nexium full-time by two thousand seventeen. Clare Bronfman had poured over one hundred, fifty, million dollars of her fortune into Keith's enterprises as for Lawrence. Saltzman. Sacrificed her lifelong dream of becoming a mother during her best for thirty years given everything. They'd lost. It might have seen too painful to walk away however despite his inner circles, best attempts to shield him from consequences, their denials fell on cold and disbelieving. And November two, thousand, seventeen upon hearing that the FBI was interviewing witnesses and victims connected to dos fifty, seven year old Keith fled to a villa near Puerto Vallarta Mexico. Keith's Mexican villa was a luxury compound. Perhaps, it was the blatant opulence that set Keith at ease whatever the reason three months after arriving in Mexico, he sent for Alison Lauren and three other frontline slaves. Keith believed that he needed to have a recommitment ceremony with his slaves. So they could prove their loyalty to him according to Keith. Loyalty apparently consisted of five women jointly giving him a blowjob according to journalist Michael. Blackman learn wasn't looking forward to the event in a later testimony. She stated that she thought to herself at the time. Do I really have no way of growing except by participating in a? A group blowjob fortunately for Lauren, the event never came to pass on March twenty, fifth two, thousand, eighteen, Mexican federalize broke into fifty eight year old, Keith. Ranieri's little, slice of Paradise EJ Dixon reported that Lauren salesman was in the kitchen making smoothies when the armed federale stormed inside. Lawrence I thought was to protect. Keith. So she ran to his upstairs bedroom to try and help him escape instead, she was barricaded inside the room with him as the federalize banged on the door as Keith Hid Lauren tried to stall the cops by asking them if they had a warrant, they responded by kicking the door in. Lauren instinctively crouch down to the floor cowering as they pointed, their loaded machine gun, sat her all the while Keith, her master, the one who had counseled her, and all the ways that men were stronger than women more rational made of sturdier stuff. At. Nothing to intervene. Finally terrified for her life Lauren, called out his name confirming his presence in the room for the authorities. It was only then that the smartest man in the world stepped out of the closet he had been hiding in. And finally, Lawrence, saw him for what he was. The man whose initials she had branded into her body was no grandmaster at all. He was a coward. Up Next, Keith, tried for his crimes now back to the story. In March of two, thousand, eighteen, Fifty, eight year old, Keith Ranieri fled to Mexico after a deluge of damning press Mexican federal as busted in arresting the cult leader onsite. Shortly after his capture, the Mexican authorities extradited Keith back to new. York, they're the cops charged him with among other things, racketeering forced labor, conspiracy, wire, fraud conspiracy, and sex trafficking. In other words, the federal authorities believed Keith Created dos. They accused him of coercing women into sleeping with him. Then branding them with his initials however, even though Keith was pulling the strings, he wouldn't have been able to build dos without his loyal army of accomplices. On April second two, thousand, nineteen, forty, two, year, old Lauryn Saltzman pleaded guilty to one count of racketeering in court. She expressed her remorse stating, I'm very sorry for my decisions that resulted in harm to others and not just the victims in this case, but to hundreds of members of our community and their friends and families, Allison. Mack was charged next on April eighth. The former CW actress pleaded guilty to one count of racketeering conspiracy and one count of racketeering according to journalist Demand Arnold in court alison admitted that she coerced women into giving her embarrassing information and photographs in order to blackmail them into going along with Keith's demands. Prefect Nancy SALTZMAN BILLIONAIRE HEIRESS CLARE? Bronfman. And nexium bookkeeper Cathy Russell also pleaded guilty to crimes connected with nexium in court Clare like Lauren, and Allison before her expressed her regret stating, I, am truly remorseful. I endeavoured to do good in the world and help people however, i. have made mistakes despite their expressions of remorse. Keith's accomplices respectively face anywhere from two to forty year. Year sentences behind bars. As of this recording, the court has not yet decided on their punishment. Naturally, the stakes, for Keith were much higher. If found guilty, the grand master of DOS would spend the rest of his life in jail and on May seventh two, thousand, nineteen, a little over a year after his capture. The cult leaders headline grabbing trial was finally at hand. In Federal District Court in Brooklyn all the main players were in their places in obey sweater fifty, nine year old Keith sat by his lawyer Mark, Agnew Philo across the courtroom, the prosecutors deliberated in the Audience Section Tony Tally sat taking it all in the last time. Tony saw Keith. He told her the next time they met. She would be dead or in jail. Yet there she sat a free woman as the rest of his life hung in the balance in her opening statement. Statement Assistant, prosecutor Tanya Jar characterized key. That's a charlatan and to scam artists to compared himself to Albert Einstein while quietly grooming many of his female followers to fulfil his sexual desires under the guise of spiritual empowerment. Mark, Philo Keith's high powered defense attorney naturally took the opposite tact. He claimed that all of Keith's actions were done in good faith. Agnes Philo asserted that Keith founded DOS as a sisterhood so that its members could make their lives better. Lastly, he focused on the fact. Fact. That seventeen thousand people took nexium courses, and many of them got something wonderful out of it. But the egalitarian picture of Keith Agnew Philip painted crumbled over the course of the six-week trial as the prosecution started calling witnesses to the stand over the course of a grueling three day testimony Lawrence Saltzman took the jury through her relationship with vanguard. She told them how he promised her a baby. Then left her with nothing. Learn also tried to explain the depth of feelings for Keith. Keith, saying he was my master, my most important person I respected and trusted him. I wanted to be like him according to Lauren. They had pet names for each other she nickname Keith dupe and he called her lorne slash forlorn because she was quote sat and suffering despite her suffering Lauren told the jury has her love for Keith, led her to restrict her diet, sent him up close pictures of her vagina three times a week and help him craft a misogynistic rulebook for dos. However Lawrence stated that the worst thing she did at Keith's behest was aid in his imprisonment of Danielle. Flores. Keith had confined Daniele to a small bedroom for two years. He did. So after the once promising Mexican student confessed that she had feelings for another man during her imprisonment Lauren have been one of Danielle's only points of contact with the outside world however when Daniele Beg Lauren for her immigration paper. So she. She could return to Mexico learn denied her request she believed that doing so would help Keith see her as a responsible parent finally, causing him to give her the baby. He'd long promised her Lawrence sobbed as she explained her complicity to the jury while her testimony shed her actions in an unfavorable light it no doubt cast a harsher glare on Keith especially when the prosecution called Dan Yellow Flora's to the stand. Daniele confirmed that Keith had indeed imprisoned her for two years while there was no lock on the door. The room was a cage in all. But name because as Daniele explain to the jury, her parents were staunch. Nexans Keith told them that she had committed an ethical breach. However, he didn't tell her parents that her crime was developing feelings for another man instead according to journalist Colin. Moynihan, Keith told them that Daniela's enforced solitude was to cure her of the sin of excessive pride. Daniela knew that if she walked out of the room without resolving her so called sin, her next parents would abandon her. Eventually however, even that fear wasn't enough to keep her with. Keith. So one day she walked out of prison and went to confront the Guru in person according to Daniela the smartest man in the world literally ran away from her and hid before she could pursue him. She was grabbed by a few of her fellow next ends driven to the Mexican border and summarily dropped off. However, Daniels Freedom was bittersweet after all her sister Camila was still in Keith's control. According to prosecutors, Keith referred to Daniela's youngest sister as Burgeon Camilla allegedly because he began a sexual relationship with her in two thousand five when she was only fifteen years old despite these claims Keith treated. Camilo with same cruelty, he showed to all his partners. He harassed her to get her weight down to below a hundred pounds and he pressured her to find other virgins on tinder for him to have sex with WHATSAPP messages between the two also revealed that Camille up might have been. Keith's very first doll slave in two thousand, fifteen, he pushed twenty, five year old Camilla to. To find a slave of her own texting I, think it would be good for you to own a slave for me that you could groom and use as a tool to pleasure me in an even more disturbing message Keith Camilo. If she agreed to take a brand, the young woman responded with horror writing. What do you mean branded like cattle Keith sent back a flippant retort texting. Don't you WANNA burn for me? Camilla did not as a result, Keith initials were never branded into her skin. However, the prosecution made sure to inform the jury of the many women within dos. been branded. They also called witnesses to the stand to detail the many sexual abuses or stunned the women and Dos. A struggling actress identified only by her first name, Nicole had been recruited into DOS by Allison Mack. She told the jury about her harrowing experience being bound to a table and having an unknown person perform oral sex on her aspiring equestrian, Sylvie who had been recruited by Monica durant burst into tears as she recounted being coerced into seducing Keith, and yet despite the Harrowing Tales conveyed by the Prosecution's many witnesses in his closing arguments, keats defense lawyer mark. Agnew. Philo. Insisted that all of the Gurus relationships were entirely consensual. Ultimately, it was up to the jury to decide and on June nineteenth two, thousand nineteen after listening to six weeks of testimony, they returned with their verdict, the twelve member jury of Keith Ranieri's Peers. Unanimously found him guilty on all seven counts including racketeering forced labor, and sex trafficking. The decision was celebrated by several of Keith's victims according to Times Unions reporting twenty two tally wore a striped jail shirt on the last day of her former tormentors trial of outfit choice Tony. Said I wore this. So Keith would know what he would be looking at for the rest of his life despite her optimism. It's unclear how long Keith sentence will be at the time of this recording his sentence hearing was pushed back due to. To the coronavirus pandemic. What is clear? However is the utter degradation of Keith. Ranieri's Empire his Lucrative Company nexium was shuttered in two, thousand eighteen, and well journalist. Frank PARLATO alleged that DASA was still operational. The sado-masochistic Pyramid certainly, no longer boasts keith at its apex as for his right hand woman after posting bail of five million dollars, thirty-seven-year-old Allison. Mack was fitted with an ankle bracelet and placed under house arrest where she awaits sentencing. Keith accommodations are far less plush. He's confined to a six point, eight foot room behind bars even worse. He's known the world over as A. Criminal and Sexual Predator. And yet despite the severity of his change circumstances, nothing about Keith's precipitous decline is especially shocking. When he was a little boy, his parents gave him an Iq test and told him that he was gifted. The act was akin to handing Keith a vial of poison from that moment on his inflated sense of self only grew to feed his insatiable ego Keith manipulated women into giving him their money, worshiping his brilliance at ignoring his many infidelities and yet even sleeping with scores of women in the lap of luxury wasn't enough to satisfy Keith, he needed to own them. So the self professed genius created dos a group in which he literally burned indelible evidence of his crime onto women's bodies in initialling dos recruits. He might as well have written a letter to the police saying I did it and yet Keith was blind to his folly. He had once compared Tony Atelli to Lucifer warning her that. Her hubris would lead to her demise unbeknownst to the all knowing guru. He wasn't describing Tony. He was talking about himself and like the fallen Angel in Paradise Lost Keith's actions landed him in a hell of his own making. Thanks again for tuning into colts, we'll be back next. Tuesday. With a new episode for more information on key through neary amongst the many sources we used. We found scarred the true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life by Sarah Edmondson with Christine. Gas. Bari. Extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of cults and all other Park. Park has two originals for free on spotify. Not only does spotify already have all of your favorite music. But now spotify making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like colts for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker. Just dream cults on spotify, just open the APP and type cults in the search bar. We'll see you next time. Colts was created by Max Cutler and as a podcast studios. Original executive producers include Max, and Ron Cutler designed by Mike, Romo's with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madden, and Joshua Kern. This episode of Colts was written by Abi Geli automaker with writing assistance by Abigail Cannon and stars, Greg Poulsen, and Vanessa Richardson.

EJ Dixon Keith Keith Hid Lauren Keith Keith Ranieri Lauren Saltzman Gabriela Sarah Keith Rainier Keith Rene Keith Raniry Lawrence Saltzman Keith sue Keith Sarah Edmonson Lawrence Keith Camilo Keith Agnew Philip Allison Mack EJ Dixon
NXIVM Pt. 2: The Parasite and the Producer

Cults

45:20 min | 6 months ago

NXIVM Pt. 2: The Parasite and the Producer

"Due to the graphic nature of this cult's crimes listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of sexual abuse, suicide and child abuse that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. It was midnight in Albany New York when forty year old Barbara Shea woke up to the sound of somebody frantically knocking on her door. According to CBC, journalist, Josh Block Barbara was stunned to see forty year old. Keith Raniry on the other side. He was crying his words coming in broken fragments as he told her that there was a problem. He'd lost it all fifty thousand dollars. His foolproof investment plan had failed Barbara didn't see how that could be possible. She had joined nexium because Keith was the smartest man in the world still despite her alarm. Tempered her nerves. Fifty thousand dollars was a significant sum, but it wouldn't ruin her, but Keith shook his head. It was more than that they owed the commodities broker. Six hundred thousand dollars Barbara was in shock. They yes Keith said they owed the money because the accounts were in her name, she was the one on the hook for six hundred. Grand Barbara had come from nothing she put. Put herself through college and decades of arduous work. Six hundred thousand dollars was almost half of her life savings, but there was nothing to be done for it. So Barbara ponied up the funds and hoped that would be the end. It wasn't by the time Keith was finished. He bed and lost all one point six million dollars of the money. Barbara worked her entire life to earn. Hi I'm Greg Paulson and I'm Vanessa Richardson? And this is colts. Original every Tuesday we look at cults, practices, their leader and their followers. You can find all episodes of cults and all of the podcast originals for free on spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream cults for free on spotify just open the APP and type colts in the search bar. This is our second episode in a deep dive into A. Cult called nexium. Group made headlines for reportedly physically branding it celebrity, late and membership, and coercing them into being sex slaves, all to satisfy its narcissistic leader, Keith Rene early in this episode will explore the early days of nexium will detail how and why Keith Ranieri Convinced to billionaire heiresses to join the growing group finally will cover how he manipulated them into spending their fortune on him over the course of the next two episodes will cover. Actress Allison Mack's rise as Keith Ranieri's right hand, woman, and finally will detail Nexia GMS notorious collapse. We've got all this and more coming up. Stay with us. By nineteen, ninety, nine, thirty nine year, old Keith Ranieri had shuttered his first company consumers byline after it was hounded with. Of fraud and his longtime girlfriend forty one year old Tony Tally had finally broken off their relationship for good fed up with abuse, Keith had already moved on. He had a different business game in mind and a brand new woman in his life, Nancy Saltzman with her input. Keith was able to craft executive success, programs or ESP like consumers bind line. ESPN was a multilevel. multilevel marketing company except instead of selling discounted household products Keith. New Venture Sold self-improvement Classes Keith claimed that ESP's technology could coach actresses into delivering Oscar worthy performances athletes into meddling at the Olympics and filmmakers into producing Alfred Hitchcock esque masterpieces. Though Keith wasn't trained in any of these fields, he was the smartest man in the world with a to forty. IQ Furthermore He. He, had Nancy when Nancy met Keith she was already respected in the corporate world for her. supposed- psychological expertise. Her rolodex boasted executives from blue chip companies like CON Edison and American Express Keith was well aware of this when he convinced Nancy to open a business with him. It's likely he expected that. Her deep pool of corporate clients would become ESP's primary user base. Base his hopes were quickly dashed while Nancy's clients respected her insights, one look at Keith's track record of pyramid schemes, and they decided that they wanted nothing to do with the smartest man in the world, fortunately for Keith he was the king of the pivot. He decided that if he couldn't offer high powered executives is self-improvement technology. Then he just go after the combat. The pitch was simple. Everybody wanted something better. Everyone wanted more more success more happiness more of a sense that they were on the right path, doing all the right things Keith provided the promise of this. If people just signed up for his classes, he would offer them the hope of more according to Tony Tallies Book the program Keith. Seductive pitch meant that ESP's first class drew seekers often at a crossroads in their lives and thirsty for exactly the type of knowledge. He seemed to have in spades. They were not easy marks. They were smart. People, whose desire for self improvement was sincere, Keith took their sincerity and charged them up to seven thousand five hundred dollars for his self-improvement, intensive 's which lasted anywhere from five to sixteen days after he had their money safe in hand, class was in session. The very first lesson that ESPN students learned was how to refer to Keith a Nazi. She was called prefect and he vanguard. Journalists Rebecca's son and Scott Johnson road for the Hollywood reporter that Keith adopted the title vanguard from an arcade game, in which the destruction of one's enemies increased ones power in other words, the name functioned as an act of dominance. Once that was accepted, Esp. Students were primed for another type of dominion. It came in the form of colored sashes. Keith impressed upon his students, the importance of hierarchy like Scientology's tea or operating fate and levels ESP's ranking system was set in stone where a student fell in the group was immutable defined by the sashes. Members wore around their necks. A White Sash meant beginner student. Yellow sashes went to students who had paid for enough courses to ascend to coaching level orange sashes went to proctors green to senior proctors all the way up the hierarchy to the so called ethereal Sash, only one ESPN member. Member had improved his character enough to warrant it Keith nearly however he promised his students that with enough lessons day to could progress up the hierarchy to move from one color ranked to the next a student I had earned or stripes on their sash, so where scientology offered its members, the Bridge to clear vanguard gave the students the stripe path to a serial. However, the sash ranking system didn't only provide students with a visual reminder of where they were in their journey to ethereal. Immediately showed them where they stood relative to each other, this was important because I had several rules governing how a lower ranked student was to interact with higher-ups i. there was the special handshake. Normally. Handshakes occur on a lateral plane. The hands are at equal height, but Keith dictated that ESP students or SPN says they sometimes referred to themselves had to put their hand beneath that of a higher rank student whenever there to poems might meet. Secondly there was the idea of paying tribute journalist Michael Friedman wrote for Forbes in two thousand three that when a higher ranking SPN and here's the room lower ranked. SPN's must stand to show respect. They taught to bow to one another and to vanguard. All of Keith's mandated rituals and insignias of rank played a very important role. Vanessa's going to take over unless psychology here and throughout the episode, please note Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or a psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for this show. Thanks Greg. According to a study led by researcher, non-pki cowed Enberg a sense of an us can emerge in the background of specific actions that individuals performed together by giving his students, a uniform system of dressing and interacting with each other Keith created a sense of an. In other words, he crafted a new group identity. Once students accepted their position as new members of an insular group Keith set about reconstructing their worldview. Keith taught SBN's that the world was divided into two groups of people, parasites and producers. He explained that why all human beings were born parasitic dependent on others for their survival. Some humans remained in the stunted state. They were perennial parasites forever, feeding off the success of others to sustain themselves on the other side of binary. Was the self sufficient producer these? These people were independent and driven enough to earn their success as opposed to leaching it from others as vanguard. The man with the the`Real Sash Keith held himself up as the ultimate producer is, students wanted to leave behind their parasitic state. They would have to throw themselves into ESPN curriculum, wholeheartedly, the core mechanism of this curriculum were explorations of meaning or EM's. During em sessions coach would take a student through an analysis of thought or behavior to find the root cause of the students negative emotional responses once the origin was located usually in a childhood memory or some other formative experience, the coach would help the student diffuse the power of the moment by asking them targeted questions in this way, explorations of meaning were very similar to scientology's auditing sessions. Keith promise that with enough explorations of meaning students. Students would destroy the root cause of the negative emotions holding them back from success in other words, em's would give them effective producer like mindsets. Keith believed that. If everybody had such a mindset, the world would be a better place to that end. He also strongly encouraged students to recruit in fact, recruitment, not self-improvement through explorations of meaning, was the main requirement to move up the stripe path and students were willing to do all of it. They went along with a strict hierarchy, the coerced explorations of oftentimes painful memories and the pressure to recruit all in the hopes that it would help them achieve their wildest dreams. They wanted to be Academy Award winning actresses. They wanted to be successful entrepreneurs. They wanted to be ethereal, so they handed over their time their money and their minds, and just like that thirty nine year old. Keith Rainier as new business was booming. Up Next, ESPN students discover the dark side of self improvement. If, you're a fan of puzzles like me. You will absolutely love the fantastic five-star rated mobile puzzle game best means while it's a casual game. It has thousands of unique puzzles that challenged by brain I really enjoy playing my way through the world of MINUTIAE and like that requires some strategy I prefer gains right need to focus and think and I can do that with best means. I started playing recently, and I'm already up to level thirty three. 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During these classes students we're taught how to resolve their negative emotional impulses to become happier more successful people. They were also strongly encouraged to go out and recruit new students into the fold since he was their vanguard. Keith students did exactly as he asked none more effectively than prefixed herself. In Nineteen, Ninety Nine Nancy encouraged her daughter's nineteen year old. Michelle and twenty year old Lauryn, to try the classes, according to journalist EJ Dixon for Rolling Stone magazine a few years after the SP, Lauren began a sexual relationship with Keith. It's unclear whether her mother was immediately aware of this after seamlessly pulling your family members into ESP. She moved on to recruiting her friends. Nancy convinced acquaintance Barbara Shade to join the group in two thousand. According to an Barbara Bouchet later wrote for Frank Report Dot Com. When the forty year old took her first workshop, she was managing ninety million dollars and grossing nine hundred thousand dollars annually in her job as a financial planner, despite her enviable success Barbara like so many of Esp's early recruits was going through a difficult time in her life Barbara Road for Frank report that at the time her best friend had committed suicide and she had just asked. Asked her husband for a divorce. It's no wonder then that she jumped at the chance to learn how to be happier from the smartest man in the world after taking a couple of ESP classes. Barbara was hooked six months after joining ESP. She had entered into a romantic relationship with Keith. Ranieri however her intimacy with Keith wasn't her sole drought, Esp. She was truly impressed with material and believed that it could change her life. Barbara wasn't alone. In this regard. Several other new recruits felt similarly passionate about Keith's curriculum and soon he was offering intensive in Alaska. Manhattan Seattle, Boston and even Mexico. Edgar boom the son of a wealthy Mexican family I heard of executive success programs while taking a similar self-improvement course called life skills, perhaps seduced by Keith's purported credentials. Edgar decided to give the new program a try according to Tony Tallies book, he quickly took to the classes in part because he was in love with Nancy Salzman Daughter Michelle Thereafter Edgar became one of ESPN recruiters south of the border. He brought in Ana Cristina Fox the daughter of Mexican President v Sentate Fox Emiliano Salinas the son of former Mexican President Carlos Salinas. Dig or Atari and Russell Lara, whom co the daughter of the Mexican newspaper Magnate Alejandro. Despite the rapid expansion and recruitment by two thousand, two trouble was brewing, an ESP and Keith's aggressive tactics began to catch up with him. Journalist Michael Friedman wrote that after sleepless nights and seventeen our days of ESP courses, a twenty eight year, old woman from prominent Mexican family began to have hallucinations. Then she had a mental breakdown. Her experience wasn't an outlier in Alaska. Environmental Consultant Kristen Snyder. Suffered an even worse fate Tony to tell. He wrote that while taking a Multi Day Esp Course Chris began strange. She interrupted the classes with bizarre statements. She stopped sleeping because she believed Keith didn't need sleep and she wanted to emulate him. Kristen even called your parents and claimed responsibility for the Columbia space shuttle explosion. After days of this erotic behavior, one of ESP's proctors came to a decision. They didn't try to remedy Kristen's outbursts. They didn't integrate her negative emotional responses through their patented exploration of meaning technology. No, they simply ordered her to go away. According to the Alaska, State Police Christian paddled a Kayak into the middle of Resurrection Bay. And then she drowned, though the police never found her body, they discovered a suicide note in it. Kristen wrote. I attended a course called executive success programs my emotional center, the brain was killed. I still have feeling in my external skin, but my internal organs are rotting. If you find me or this note I, am sorry life I didn't. Didn't know I was already dead. The disturbing contents of Kristen suicide note seemed to suggest that she was suffering some sort of psychosis. This might have been caused by our unwillingness to sleep. According to researchers, fluffy waters and Vivian Hsu prolonged sleep. Deprivation can cause psychotic symptoms from simple visual somatic sensory misperceptions to hallucinations and delusions, ending in a condition resembling acute psychosis, maybe lack of sleep. Did 'cause Christian symptoms, but it's important. Important to note that the twenty eight year old woman in Mexico also suffered a mental break, and there was no evidence. She stop sleeping in a bid to emulate Keith this suggest that perhaps there was something baked into Esp's courses. That caused these episodes after all ESP's explorations of meaning made students hyper focused on their most negative emotions and memories in the hopes that they could rid them of their power, perhaps this fixation. Fixation had the opposite effect causing those emotions to feel all encompassing to the point of agony if there was something dangerous about Esp's methodology, Keith Ranieri didn't care to rooted out according to the program, Keith claim that Kristen Snyder faked her suicide because she was involved in drug smuggling ring. Needless to say this conspiracy theory had no basis in fact, neither did some of the new stories that Keith began to spin about himself. In the early two thousands Keith, started to claim he was a renunciation who was shooed all sexual and romantic attachments, however, nothing could be further from the truth after all his sexual appetite was so voracious that a few years earlier Tony Tally had to barricade herself in the closet to stop him from raping her Keith's habits didn't suddenly change overnight in her book. The program Tony the tally wrote that Keith was having sex with everyone in his inner circle he was. was having sex with Pam K., Fritz Kristen Kief and Karen Unto Reiner his former roommates and Barbara Shea. He was having sex with Prefix Nancy. Salzman and her daughter Lauren Saltzman in addition to sexual gluttony Keith continued his penchant of preying on teenage girls. In early two thousand sixteen year old Danielle Yellow Flora's parents gifted, her and ESP class. They were vanguard converts, and they wanted. They're smart, young daughter to benefit from the teachings that had so resonated with them. Before the sixteen day intensive class, Daniela had dreams of attending Harvard University and becoming a scientist so that she could change the world during the intensive according to Journalists Emanuel Grinberg and Sonia Mogi Daniele was taught a mathematical equation that purported to prove that the world was going to end in ten to fifteen years as a result. She was told that her efforts to better. The world were pointless because the only way to change the planet was through Esp. This likely demoralized Daniele so that when Lauren Saltzman asked her to forsake the rest of her formal education and be tutored by vanguard instead she agreed. But when Danielle arrived in Albany Keith didn't do much teaching. In fact, he largely ignored her so according to Grinberg and Mogi article, the brilliant student cleaned offices to stay busy. One year later, the smartest man in the world's attention finely honed in on her, but it wasn't a teacher science instead forty two year old. Keith kissed seventeen year old Daniele for the first time while he brought up the prospect of having sex. He allowed that she was too young. However a few days after she turned eighteen Keith, apparently decided that they're over twenty year age. Difference was no big deal so Grinberg. And Mogi wrote he performed oral sex on the eighteen year old on a dirty mattress in an empty office, according to the program Daniele, the brilliant student with dreams of Harvard, spent the next couple of years doing data entry cleaning houses of high ranking, spn's and performing oral sex on command for vanguard. In part one we covered how Keith embodied several traits on Robert Hare's psychopathy checklist, he demonstrated a grandiose sense of self, manipulative tendencies, a lack of empathy and a pension for pathological, lying Keith's comfort with preying on a teenage Daniele, as well as his rotating roster of sexual partners, further works to reinforce this hypothesis and according to clinical psychologist Seth Meyers psychopaths don't. Don't gauge promiscuous intercourse because they love sex so much. It's more about boosting their ego obtaining power or defending against the boredom that psychopaths often feel this suggest that perhaps Keith pursued predatory sexual relationships to feed his bottomless need for adoration and entertainment, not just to satisfy his lust, even worse during his numerous sexual encounters Keith refused to wear a condom. He defended. Defended his proclivity by alleging that sex was a form of energy exchange, his agenda relations acting as some sort of heavenly gift to the women who received them back on earth, his refusal to wear protection meant that some of his partners got pregnant as a solution to this problem. Tony Tally wrote that Pam K. Fritz one of Keith's former roommates and most loyal. Loyal acolytes shepherded so many women to planned parenthood for an abortion that the staff recognized her despite the abortions the ESPN. PSYCHOTIC breaks and keeps habit of preying on his barely legal students in the early two thousands ESPN had a respectable public face. Perhaps it was this sheen of respectability that helped Lauren Sara Bronfman the billionaire heiress to the Seagram Alcohol Empire. In Two thousand two twenty five year, old Sarah Bronfman's four-month marriage to Irish horse Jockey ronin. Clark was already on the rocks. Maybe her fast-failing union was what caused the usually bubbly party girl to engage in some introspection. Whatever the reason when Bronfman family friend Susan White recommended ESP. Sarah agreed to give the self improvement classes try. In the past Sarah had been somewhat nomadic in her career pursuits. She conceded to a brief undergraduate stint at nyu and then opened a skydiving business in the Caribbean, but after so many Wayward Years Sarah found her rock in ESP. She was so passionate about the curriculum that she encouraged her sister Claire to give the classes. Try where Sarah was blonde and bubbly. Her sister Claire was dark, haired and serious where Sarah flitted from country to country in search of a passion in two thousand and two Clare was already a grand prix winning equestrian. Their differences were perhaps why Claire didn't take to ESPN as easily as Sarah had according to Vanity Fair journalist Susanna Andrews during her i. e S P class. Clare had a defiant. Defiant airport her. She was angry at the world. She would tell people she had decided to spend the rest of her life with horses, because she didn't like human beings, and not just wouldn't do for Keith because Sarah and Clare weren't just rich day were filthy rich. Their Father Edgar Bronfman had an estimated net worth of two point. Six billion dollars, and each of the girls boasted Multimillion Dollar Trust Fund. Balances. Keith wasn't going to let either one of them. Slip through his fingers so easily. Early on in her time with the S P Keith convened a series of one on one meetings with the recalcitrant Clare. We don't know what they discussed during these private sessions, but the end result was clear Clare was just as enthusiastic about ESP, as her sister was perhaps more so because according to several former members of the group clear apparently fell in love with Keith. With both minnows on his hook forty three year old Keith set his sights on the white whale in two thousand three, he pushed Clare and Sarah to set up a meeting with their father Edgar. This was a difficult ask after Edgar's divorced from their mother Sarah and Claire had spent the bulk of their childhood Ling part from the Bronfman riches. They hadn't grown up in new. York society like their older siblings, nor had they attended fancy private schools, and while they did have access to impressive trust funds of their own, they likely resented their father for his early absence from their lives. So when keyes asked them to reach out to Edgar they hesitated, but Keith was nothing, if not persuasive, and eventually he got the girls to agree. Eager to fix his strained relationship with his daughters. Edgard jumped at the chance to participate in their passion. He signed up for one of ESPN specially designed VIP classes. The course was taught by prefix yourself and carry a price tag of ten thousand dollars. Fortunately, that was chump change to a billionaire. Not only did edgar hand over his money easily. He loved the classes so much so that he began flying Nancy out to his estate in Virginia, so she could give him one on one esp. Therapy sessions for Keith. The future couldn't have looked brighter. Not only did he now have a billionaire amongst his clientele, but in two thousand three executive success programs boasted an impressive three thousand seven hundred members, however, there was one downside to Keith's fortune, but taxman came calling. According to the program, the profits of ESP were such that Keith began strategizing how to avoid paying taxes on his wealth. To that end, he decided to fold the company into an umbrella corporation to shield himself from direct ownership Keith called his new venture nexium. With a new name and a fast growing business forty three year old Keith received yet another piece of good news when he discovered that Forbes magazine wanted to do a feature on him. He eagerly anticipated the article likely believing that it would usher in more stratospheric. Yes, he was wrong the Forbes. Article was a disaster of such magnitude. It threatened his relationship with a billionaire pudding Keith's whole empire at stake. Up Next Keith Ranieri Fields accusations that he's running a cult. High Listeners Vanessa. We all know that navigating young adulthood can be a wild ride for Social Media Star Addison Ray. It's something she couldn't do without her mom Sheri Nicole in their entertaining new podcast original series. Mama knows best. Addison goes to her mom for advice on all things growing up, want to hear more. Here's Addison and Sherry to fill you in. Hey all? I'm Addison Ray and her mom. Sherry and every Monday on our new show. Mom knows best. We're going to get real about all the ups. And all the downs of growing up finding love and going viral, we have a bunch of awesome topic signed up like living with your parents dating during a pandemic and so much more, and since I know best y'all have some advice to share. Okay, but do you really know best is the name of the show all right well I think we can let them be. The judge of that. New episodes of mom knows best every Monday exclusively on spotify so follow, and you can listen for free. Now back to the story. In, two thousand, three forty three year old. Keith Rainier was finally living up to his outsized expectations. He turned to self-improvement Business Esp into a financial success boasting thousands of members and in the process he'd managed to attract an elite clientele with a billionaire amongst its ranks, so when Keith learned that Forbes magazine wanted to do a feature on him. He likely viewed it as a just reward, but in his excitement he made a grievous mistake in the mid two, thousand Keith was juggling intense, sexual and. And emotional relationships with multiple women. This was no easy feat. Each keeps girls require their own special touch. Fortunately, he was Predator naturally adept at sensing and meeting their needs, however in the excitement of granting the Forbes journalist access to his inner circle Keith failed to adequately manage the feelings of Clare. Bronfman according to Tony. Tally Clare had always been overshadowed by her bubbler. Prettier older sister Sarah Nexium was supposed to be different. It was supposed to be the one place where Clare was at the forefront. She believed in Nexium so hardly that she'd given up her dreams of being a champion equestrian to focus on the group full-time. Despite her sacrifices, it seemed to Clare. That Keith Nancy were making a big fuss of her older sister to the Forbes journalist. Feeling overlooked and underappreciated. Clare decided to do something about it. In a reported acts of retaliation, she called her father Edgar and told him that Keith had borrowed two million dollars from her with that piece of information. The wool was officially yanked off of Edgar. Bronfman is. Perhaps he'd wanted to believe that Keith was the ethical guru. He presented himself to be perhaps in desiring a deeper connection with his daughters Edgar had even convinced himself that he was getting something invaluable from the ten thousand dollar classes. However, once he heard about the two million dollar loan. Edgar had his own comment for the Forbes journalist. He said I think it's a cult, and that wasn't. All the Forbes feature was rotten with damaging information about Keith one section discussed the collapse of his alleged pyramid scheme. Consumers byline. Another part featured details about the psychotic break. Certain SPN's had suffered after taking his courses. However it was the Forbes journalist. Michael Friedman who delivered the death knell. He branded Keith, a corporate. Sven Gali who's impenetrable jargon, filled teachings were either pure genius or sheer horse manure, instead of addressing the parts of the article that called his behavior into question Keith honed in on Edgar Bronfman's quote or rather he on Clare Bronfman. He was furious. She told her father about the loan perhaps by Keith Demand Both Clare and Sarah stopped talking to their father, but that wasn't enough for Keith. He accused Clare of committing an ethical breach of violating nexium mission statement allegedly in love with Keith, Clare was desperate to get back into his good graces in other words. She was exactly where Keith wanted her. In late, two, thousand, three Keith, Convinced Clare, and Sarah to turn over the management of their assets to fellow nexium member Barbara Shea eager to please Keith both Clare and her sister agreed after all. Barbara was a successful financial planner, so she certainly had the skills to manage their account. However, the sisters didn't know that the person who was supposed to be looking out for their best fiduciary interests was sleeping with their guru. Perhaps this conflict of interest was why Barbara didn't raise any alarms when Keith, convinced the girls to start spending their money at a startling rate. Their expenses ran the gamut. There was the one million dollars. The girls shout to refurbish prefects mansion. Then they paid one point seven million dollars for next see'ums, headquarters and two point three million dollars for a nexium horse farm, the girls, even purchaser, private jet, and made available to next higher ups, but one of their most outrageous expenses by far was the twenty million dollar check. The girls donated. No questions asked to a nexium controlled foundation. Despite this gigantic outlay Keith wasn't satisfied largely because he didn't just see. Clare Bronfman as a Piggy Bank for pleasurable pursuits. He also viewed her as a human war chest. According to New York, times journalist Berry. Meyer Clare Bronfman was Keith's greatest legal weapon. She financed and aggressively pursued long-running lawsuits against nexium enemies. She filed criminal complaints against defectors from the group and even US lawyers to threaten its critics. More ominous Keith reportedly used Clare's money to buy opposition research on his enemies. Keep paid for dossiers of extensive, sometimes incriminating information on everyone from local politicians to his ex girlfriend tonita tally. However weaponising Clare Bronfman's money was far from the worst thing Keith Renee did with her millions. The worst thing he did was disguised as an amazing opportunity. In two thousand, five forty four year, old Keith, told Sarah and Claire that he devised an ingenious mathematical formula that would allow him to make millions in the commodities market. Since Keith was the smartest man in the world, the Bronfman sisters readily allowed him to make commodity trades with their funds. What followed was a bloodbath. Keith burn through sixty five million dollars of their money, losing it all on extreme ill-thought-out trades in the commodities market when questioned. Keith had a ready explanation for his losses he blamed their father Edgar. Keith claimed that Edgar was in cahoots. With the commodities clearing firm to steal the girls inheritance money. He said that Edgar was the root cause of his massive losses both Sarah Anne Clare believed him. They needed to believe him Sarah had been directionless before joining nexium. Even her friends viewed her as an airhead nexium gave her substance it gave her purpose, and as for Clare, she was allegedly in love with Keith with those incentives. It's understandable why the Bronfman sisters swallowed their gurus improbable tale. However. They might not have been so easy to convince. Had they been aware that this wasn't the first time Keith had lost millions in the commodities market. In fact, just a few years earlier, he blown. Barbara Shays entire life savings on similarly speculative trades Keith's decision to essentially gamble with his followers. Funds might have been yet another demonstration of his psychopathic traits, according to Hare's checklist. Psychopaths have a persistent need for stimulation, poor behavioral controls and impulsively these three factors help to explain why. Why, there's oftentimes a correlation between psychopathy and gambling addictions strangely enough, there's another trade on hairs listed that psychopaths unilaterally share namely they're known to live parasitic lifestyles. Keith warned his students at the world was comprised of producers and parasites, though he held himself up. As an exemplary producer is conduct proves he was nothing but a parasite he had sex with several of the women in his inner circle to satiate his need for adoration, and he blew both Barbara and the bump into. In the commodities market to feed his hunger for stimulation. Despite the predatory nature of his actions, the female members of Nexium. Keith's thrall that they couldn't see him for the parasite, he was furthermore, whereas Leeches fell off their victim's bodies when they were seated with blood Keith was insatiable, and soon he decided to expand his feeding pool to grow nexium footprint. Keith did this by creating a new program specifically devoted to female empowerment called. S. According to Scott Johnson and Rebecca. Sons article for the Hollywood reporter. In late, two thousand six several dozen people filed into a hotel conference room in Vancouver, Canada for a two day introduction to Janice. The program was billed as a women's movement within nexium. Though nexium had maintained a Vancouver outpost for a few months. There had been no Canadian gathering as deemed as this one in attendance that day were the members of next seems elite both Sarah and Clare Bronfman had flown into town on their private jet, furthermore, Prefect Nancy, Salzman and her daughter Lauren. Saltzman were also in attendance. Though the weekend intensive was supposedly about teaching nexium ideas about female empowerment in reality there were other motives at play. The upper echelons of Nexium had descended upon the unremarkable conference room in Vancouver because of one specific person. Allison Mack when forty-six year old Keith. Ranieri that the FAN FAVORITES CW actress plan to attend the program. He'd sent his shrewdest and most impressive members to lure her into the fold, after all Keith's enterprises had always benefited from the incorporation of talented women. Nexium curriculum was built off of Nancy Salts. Men's life work. The organization's operations were funded by the Bronfman sisters, millions and in Allison Mack Keith saw. Saw Celebrity spokesperson according to an interview given to the Hollywood reporter journalist by former nexium member celebrity recruitment might have been another cue. Keith took from Scientology Alison would be there. Tom Cruise figure, a recognizable face that lent credibility to the cult, a promise of the success to be found by following ESP, in two thousand, six twenty-three-year-old Allison Mack was unaware of any of these machinations. All she saw was a group of young creative people who seemed to welcome her with open arms. It's no surprise then that at the end of the weekend session when Lawrence saltzman invited Alison back to Albany to meet Keith, she eagerly agreed. As. She climbed into the Bronfman's private jet to fly to new. York Alison had no idea that the decision would center down a dark path from which there would be no return. Thanks again for tuning into colts. We'll be back next Tuesday with the third episode of our four part special will cover keith toxic relationship with Allison Mack, which culminated in the Hollywood actress, allegedly branding women for his satisfaction for more information on Keith Raniry amongst the many sources we used. We found the program inside the mind of Keith Raniry and the rise and And fall of nexium by toning tally with Chet Harden extremely helpful to our research, you can find all sorts of cults and all of the podcast originals for free on spotify not only does spotify already have all of your favorite music, but now spotify is making it easy for you. Enjoy all of your favorite podcast. Originals Lake Colts for free from your phone. Or Smart Speaker to stream cults on spotify just open the APP and type cults in the search bar will see you next time. Cults was created by Max Cutler as a podcast studios, original executive producers include Maxon, Ron Cutler, sound designed by Mike Romo's with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carlee Madden and Joshua Kern this episode of cults was written by Abi Geli. Who with writing assistance by Abigail, cannon and stars, Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson. High again is Vanessa before we go. I wanted to remind you to check out the new podcast original series. Mom knows best. Every Monday join social media icon Addison Ray as goes to her mom, Sheri Nicole for advice on all things growing up. It's entertaining, endearing and sometimes I. I think you'll really enjoy it follow. Mom knows best free and exclusively on spotify.

Allison Mack Keith Keith Keith Ranieri ESP Keith Rainier Tony Tally Keith Raniry Keith Rene ESPN Prefect Nancy Clare Bronfman Tally Clare Josh Block Barbara executive Keith Ranieri Fields Michelle Thereafter Edgar S P Keith Bronfman spotify Keith Demand
NXIVM Pt. 3: The Master and the Slave

Cults

45:00 min | 6 months ago

NXIVM Pt. 3: The Master and the Slave

"Due to the graphic nature of this cult crimes, listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of sexual abuse and child abuse that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. In Two Thousand Sixteen Nicole lay naked on a table. She was blindfolded and beyond at the ankles and wrists. And she shivered from the Cold Nicole. Probably wondered how she got there. She just wanted to be a successful actress. That's why she trusted. Allison Mack months earlier thirty four year old. allyson had invited to call to join a women's empowerment. Group thrilled better not be veteran would take an interest in her. Nicole accepted then came the demands. I Allison told Nicole to call her master. Then she insisted that Nicole remained celebrate for three months, but it was allison's final request that led to Nicole lying naked, blindfolded and bound with only fifty six year old key through a neary at her side. All! Nicole was immobilized. Someone began performing oral sex on her. At first. She assumed it was Keith, but then he started talking to her even as the act continued. That's when Cole realized with horror that she didn't know who was going down on her and bound. She was there was nothing she could do to stop them. After the oral sex she hadn't consented to Nicole returned to. Show talk, however when she told the actress what had transpired with Keith, ellison didn't seem surprised instead. She told Nicole that she was brave and she had earned the privilege of working more with Keith. Hi, I'm Greg Paulson and I'm Vanessa Richardson then. This is colts. Apar- cast original every Tuesday. We look at cults, practices, their leader and their followers. You can find all episodes of cults and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, just dream cults for free on spotify just open the APP and type cults in the search bar. This marks the second week of our deep dive into nexium. The group made headlines for physically branding celebrity. Celebrity late and membership, and coercing them into being sex slaves, all to satisfy its narcissistic leader. Keith remarry in this episode will explore Keith's relationship with actress Allison? Mack then will detail the role. Alison played in his predatory sorority. Finally will cover some of the horrifying practices. Keith inflicted upon DOS members in Thursday's final episode will delve into the unmasking of dos for what it really was. A sex ring will follow Keith's desperate flight to Mexico and his eventual capture and downfall. We've got all this and more coming up. Stay with us. In two thousand, six forty six year old Keith Ranieri was a man completely in charge of his kingdom, he built nexium up from nothing, and though the corporate clients initially coveted had rejected him. Keith more than made up for it. By securing billionaire heiresses, Clarence Sara Bronfman as members, however, the shiny is and Keith's crown was his newest recruit allison mack. Five years earlier in two thousand, one, nine thousand nine year old allison mack was cast to play super. Man's best friend in the hit teen soap smallville in addition to being a superheroes POW. She worked for the SMALLVILLE newspaper. As a result, her main driving impulse was the search for truth liker character. Elson to was motivated by a search for Truth and purpose in an interview with journalists coronel. A friend described her as someone who was constantly searching for something that. That was missing at her life in two thousand, six, perhaps twenty four year old. Allyson believed she would find that missing thing in nexium. Maybe that's why she climbed into the Bronfman's private jet and flew to Albany New York to meet the vanguard. Keith through neary Ellison's initial meeting with the smartest man. The world must have been successful because according to journalists. Rebecca son in Scott Johnson. She was still in Albany surrounded by vanguards inner circle a few weeks later. Allison wasn't the only actress drawn in by nexium fellow Smallville Co Star Kristin. Cruch who why five Oh actress Grace Park and Battle Star. GALACTICA actress Nikki, Klein were all reported members. Actresses might have flocked nexium because of Keith's claimed that he could coach anyone to do anything. Even win an academy award. However, there may have been another reason. They felt drawn to the group. Research suggests that artists. Are Susceptible to charismatic cults Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here throughout the episode, please note. Vanessa is not licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for the show thanks Greg. In an interview with journalist Scott Johnson and Rebecca son. Jodie Wild, a documentary film, Director and cults expert stated that Hollywood is filled with vulnerable artists, many of whom are lost or damaged, so if you get a Predator in the mix whether it's Harvey Weinstein or the leader of Nexium, they're going to go for it. Those leaders might offer other forms of support that they can't get from their agent or manager Alison like all actresses was subject to the many rejections that are part of every acting career, so a desire for a more stable form of acceptance and support might explain why she was so tied to the group did might also explain why her attachment sustained. In the face of some of next seems more regressive teachings more specifically. The beliefs keith is posed in his intensive seminar called Janice. Genus posed as a female empowerment class, but it's subject. Matter was almost comically misogynistic during genetics, intensive 's Keith taught female next Sean's that women were naturally more submissive and prone to monogamous relationships, while men were dominant and genetically predisposed to poly-amorous. According to journalist Dixon Keith also preached that men inherently had more character in fortitude, and women were more prone to flightiness and game-playing the women who signed up for genetics were searching for self empowerment, therefore exposing their current lack of power and self esteem. Their insecurity made them easy marks for Keith's misogynistic indoctrination and allison mack was no different in a two thousand seven blog. The actress wrote I have a tendency to say. I'm stupid. I have become very comfortable. Talking things up to the fact that I don't have a proper education. These negative personal feelings go some way towards explaining why Alison didn't immediately recoil from suggestions that. That women were flighty creatures, lacking in character and fortitude in essence geneticists, philosophy was just reinforcing her own low opinion about herself. However, nexium wasn't all misogynistic seminars about the sexes. Ellison might have also been drawn to the cult for young creative community, and its many recreational events by two thousand six Barbara, Bouchet one of Keith's girlfriends head already created vanguard week or V. Week though she'd invented be week to be a business conference to promote Nexium, it turned into a ten day celebration of Keith's birth during the week next scenes from all over the United States Europe Canada and Mexico descended on the compound in Clifton Park. Filmmaker Mark B sent. A former next-gen likened the proceedings to a summer camp for adults. Where you had all these things you could choose from that. You wanted to do drumming dancing singing, even poetry, all of it was done as a tribute to Keith recognizing him as the creator of a philosophical movement. The veneration of Keith wasn't restricted to V. Week, either it featured in every single facet of Naxi in life, especially amongst the groups female members. In an interview with ABC's Twenty Twenty Mark B sent taste, stated that when Keith played volleyball at the compound which he did. Almost daily rows of women would wait for him on the sidelines, and then the minute there was a break between plays. They would rush him like he was a Rockstar, all of them eager to ask him their deep pressing questions. Their education was why Keith despite claiming to be Selah was able to continue sexual relationships with several of his female students, according to an F.. B. I. Report, he had between fifteen and twenty sexual partners simultaneously in the early two thousands Allison Mack didn't know this. All she saw was the rampant deification of Keith. According to Social Psychologist Robert Zion's human beings are subject to a phenomenon called the exposure affect Zairians found that the more a person is exposed to an object or an idea, the more likely they are to believe it early on analysis introduction to nexium. She saw Keith being celebrated as an enlightened beginning during the week she witnessed followers flocking to him after his volleyball games in line with the exposure effect, it's possible Alison to began to view Keith as a deity, the addition of a Hollywood actress to his coterie of admirers, likely filled Keith with joy, and yet even as he was enjoying the fruits of the kingdom he had built trouble was brewing within his ranks. Barbara Bouchet the woman who invented the week that venerated his birth was beginning to challenge his authority. By the late two thousands forty nine year, old Barbara Bouchet had been a member of Nexium for nine years. She dated Keith Rene for almost the entirety of that time, and after nearly a decade with Nexium, she had grievous concerns about the way the group was being run Barbara wasn't alone in her feelings. She was backed up by eight other women, including fellow upper level next in Susan donors bolstered by their number. The next nine confronted Keith in an article for Frank. Frank Lotto's website art voice. Susan donuts detailed the group's main points. She called key thought for his sexual exploitation of female students for borrowing large amounts of money from members, and finally for his refusal to pay state or federal taxes in response, Keith was simultaneously dismissive and threatening, using needlessly technical jargon. He told the women that they didn't have the data to fully understand the true reality of the situation. They didn't have his of leadership or the experience of preserving. Lives at that one of the women pushed back. She said that Keith didn't have leadership experience. Either since his company consumers byline had fallen apart within a few years, her accurate synopsis of his CBI failure caused a flicker Keith's previously calm demeanor, his voice, soft yolk furious. He told the women that he'd had people killed because of his beliefs and because of their beliefs. It's unclear how the confrontation ended after that. However, we know that ultimately the meetings accomplished nothing Keith. Refuse to admit any wrongdoing so all nine women defected it was the largest exodus of upper level members. Keith had suffered to date. He didn't take it well. When Tony Tallied dumped Keith, he attacked her with a series of retaliatory lawsuits Barbara. Bouchet suffered the same fate. Keith had already squandered the bulk of her savings. In speculative commodity trades, Barbara spent the rest of our coffers. Coffers battling his lawsuits all while knowing that Keith's Bronfman stuffed pockets were practically bottomless, attacking a woman who abandoned him in court likely gave Keith some satisfaction, but it didn't erase. The significance of the nexium nines defection, perhaps the exodus of so many crucial members made Keith fear. He was losing control of his empire. If that was the case, it certainly would explain why. He reacted with such ir when it seemed, he was losing his hold over one of his young female members. Up Next Keith raniry exerts absolute power over one young woman's life. If. You're a fan of puzzles like me. You will absolutely love the fantastic five-star rated mobile puzzle game. Best beans while it's a casual game. 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In two thousand, nine forty nine year, old Keith Ranieri was reeling from the defection of Barbara Bouchet. Susan don't as and seven other upper level NEXANS, their sudden exodus likely made him question whether his hold over his empire was as absolute as he believed perhaps driven by a desire to maintain control Keith reacted with fury when he started losing his hold over twenty six year old next in named Danielle. Flores by two thousand ten, Daniela had been a next for ten years after moving to Albany at age sixteen Keith had started grooming her shortly before she turned eighteen as A. Student with dreams of Harvard shopping excited to learn from the smartest man in the world in the decades since her arrival, however, all Keith taught her was how to clean offices and pleasure him sexually the significant age, difference and unequal power dynamic of their relationship was concerning enough, however, what made kice affair with Daniele? Even more disturbing was the fact that he was also having sex with her sisters. Mariana and Camillo Daniele may have been able to ignore this unnatural setup, however, on one occasion Keith attempted to coerce her, and whatever sisters into having A. A threesome with him. The traumatizing interlude only came to an end when both sisters broke down crying. That wasn't the worst of Keith's behavior at different points. In time he had impregnated all three sisters and insisted they get abortions in the aftermath of Danielle is abortion Keith presented the traumatized girl with a silver lining. He told her the procedure would help her. Lose weight claiming that Olympic athletes often got abortions as part of their training in light of Keith's cruelty. It's no surprise that in two thousand, ten, twenty, old down, yellow looked for affection elsewhere. She developed a crush on fellow nexium member. Ben Myers although Keith was having sex with two of her sisters and countless others. When he found out Daniele was romantically interested in someone else, he lost it according to journalist EJ Dixon Keith became enraged by the supposed ethical breach and sent his other girlfriends including prefect to encourage Daniele to apologize ultimately, however, he decided that an apology was too small price to pay instead. Keith commanded that Daniele remained locked in her small bedroom as a form of penance for the next two years Danielle. Danielle was trapped in the room with only a mattress, upenn and paper, her parents fervent Nexans who had also emigrated to Albany would bring her food, but under orders from Keith, they refused to speak to her in her isolation Daniele grew hopeless and suicidal. She wrote letters to Keith daily, apologizing to him, and begging him to confine meant Keith didn't redone yellows, desperate letters, and he refused to release her from her prison. If he couldn't control the actions of the nexium nine, he could at least dictate the entirety of one girl's life. In addition to imprisoning Daniele Keith, enjoyed other victories in two thousand ten. allegedly. That's the year. He added Allison Mack to his roster of sexual partners. In the four years since she joined the group twenty eight year old allison mack had become a full-fledged nexium evangelist, she preached family members and friends alike regaling them with tons of nexium brilliance. It's unparalleled ethics. She also consistently returned to the well of her fellow artists according to. To Scott Johnson Rebecca sons article for the Hollywood reporter at different points, Alison attempted to recruit seventh heaven, Alum Beverley Mitchell and grammy winning singer Kelly Clarkson however Allison's most disturbing overtures were her attempts to recruit Harry Potter actress Emma Watson in a series of tweets. Alison implored Emma to participate in a unique human development and women's movement. Emma didn't respond to her missives, and that was for the best because by two thousand ten. Involvement with Nexium was already taking a toll on her health, according to a former nexium member who bumped into the actress at a Yoga Studio in two thousand ten, she could tell that Alison had already started a sexual relationship with Keith because the actress had a gray pallor that was common to Keith's women as they all started to get a little sickly. Keith was attracted to on natural skinny women and likely manipulated them into extreme weight loss. As a result, the former member stated that his girls looked scary. They all dropped. Wait their heads getting too big for their bodies, so they became bobbleheads yet despite the fact that Keith was bad for her twenty nine year old Alison committed to the group further when her hit show, Smallville came to an end after ten seasons. With the role of Clark Kent's closest confidante behind her ellison decided to audition for that same position and Keith Ranieri's life to that end. The actress bought a house in Albany and transplanted her life. They're committing herself to furthering the movement full-time. Keith might have read Allison's move as a sign. He wasn't losing his grip on his followers. He had done yellow in chains at a Hollywood actress, warming his bed, his control over his kingdom was unshakable, but keeps feelings of certainty soon shattered against a series of punishing events. I came the articles in November of two thousand ten Vanity Fair published a piece, called the heiresses and the cult in journalists Susannah Andrews not only dubbed Nexium occult. She also detailed the fact that by two thousand ten Keith had blown one hundred fifty million dollars of the Bronfman's fortune. That same year New York, post journalist John. Mackintosh reported on the bizarre claims Keith made during his meeting with the nexium nine. She specifically focused on his assertion that he'd had people killed, Keith second wave of attacks came from his ex girlfriend Tony Tally in two thousand eleven. She filed a lawsuit against him, accusing him of repeatedly raping her during their nine year relationship. To tell these claims were seemingly bolstered, but in two thousand twelve, The Times, union's incisive piece in binary shadows dropped in the article journalist James Emo, dotto and Jennifer Gish detailed years of statutory rape allegations from Keith's underage victims, despite this deluge of bad press and lawsuits, Keith was able to keep the fallout from penetrating his Clifton. Park fortress, according to Tony. Tallies book the program Nexans, wrote all. All of it off as a coordinated media vendetta, demonizing the press is a common tactic cult leader us. However, the cops played right into keats hands. They reinforced his narrative by not promptly pressing any charges, their hands were tied in many cases. The statute of limitations had elapsed while Keith had managed to contain the fallout from without he never anticipated the massive blow. He would soon suffer from within. Kristen KIEF was one of Keith's earliest acolytes in addition unbeknownst to most nexans. Kristen was the mother of Keith Son Gaylon. Since Keith was claiming to be celebrate the to hit galeone's paternity by pretending. He was the adopted son of an entirely different woman, however, in two thousand fourteen, Kristen dropped the pretense when she fled Clifton Park with her child in tow, according to Times Union journalist James Emo dotto. Kristen ran because she was concerned about her son's welfare in an email. Scared mother allegedly wrote Keith was experimenting on Gaylon. I had to get him away. Kristen wasn't specific about what form Keith's experimentation took. However, she might have been referring to his insistence that gala. Rainbow Cultural Gardens or are CG. C. CG was a childhood development program Keith created shortly after gallons birth all enroll children were spoken to in five different languages by five different nannies. This might have been the experimentation. Kristen was talking about. However, she may have also been hinting at something far more sinister. According to the program a year before Christie's escape, investigative journalist Chat Harden received a letter from a woman given the pseudonym Inez like Daniela Inez was for Mexico unlike the former student. However, she was heavily involved in. Keith's took initiative. Rainbow Cultural Gardens in the email you Nez sent. She stated that she wanted out of nexium. She was beginning to suspect the Keith created our cg not to teach children how to speak different languages, but rather to groom. Groom them into having sex with adults in alleged that Keith openly claimed that he wanted to use the school to teach children. That sex was beautiful and should be practiced openly. We can't say for sure. Whether Kristen was privy to claims of such tenor from Keith, but if she was, it certainly would explain why she left him so suddenly taking their son with her. Kristen's departure might have also been motivated by her fears for her own life. A week after leaving, Keith Kristen reached out to nexium ninety. Factor Barbara Bouchet journalist Sarah. Berman reported that Kristen. Told Boucher that she was in hiding with her son. She was afraid for her life. Because of the things she'd seen Keith. Do the worst of which was his attempt to pull off what she termed a Mexican plot in this gambit. Kristen claim that Keith bribed judge in Mexico. To issue an indictment against Barbara Tony and Susan donors. They were going to be lured south of the border, and once they got their Keith's upper level, Mexican contacts were going to put them in prison. When a Shock Barbara asked how serious keith was! Kristen responded that the plot had been three years in the making more chilling. Kristen stated that she'd long realized that Keith was not trying to succeed. He was trying to enslave as we covered last week Keith exhibited several traits consistent with a diagnosis of psychopathy in accordance with psychologist Robert Hare's checklist Keith showed signs of manipulative nece, sexual promiscuity, pathological, lying and a lack of empathy, behavioral analysis agents at the FBI identified one more characteristic endemic among psychopaths, namely their need to maintain absolute control over others at all costs given this desire Christians, defection might have been the most painful one keith at suffered yet. been with him, since almost the very beginning, thus her departure would've acted as the final blow shattering any illusions, he held about being in control. The first time Keith was reeling from a loss of control. He reacted by confining Daniela to a tiny room with Kristen's defection. Keith would go even further than that. It was no longer enough for him to control one young woman to restore his sense of order, and his hold over his empire Keith decided to enslave scores of women. Up Next Keith crafts a secret sorority to enslave his female members. High listeners, it's Vanessa. We all know that navigating young adulthood can be a wild ride for social. Media Star, Addison Ray. It's something she couldn't do without her. Mom Sheri Nicole in their entertaining new podcast original series. Mom knows best. Addison goes to her mom for advice on all things growing up one here more. Here's Addison and Sherry to fill you in. Hey I'm addison ray and her mom Sherry and every Monday on our new show. Mom knows best. We're going to get real about all the ups. And all the downs of growing up finding love and going viral, we have a bunch of topics signed up like living with your parents dating during a pandemic, and so much more, and since I know best y'all know have some advice to share. Okay, but do you really know best is the name of the show all right well I think we can let them be. The judge of that. New episodes of mom knows best every Monday exclusively on spotify so follow, and you can listen for free. Now back to the story. By two thousand, fourteen, fifty four year old Keith Raniry had weathered a slew of rapid fire attacks on his credibility I. There were the critical articles that branded him as a cult leader and sexual predator. Then his ex girlfriend Tony. Tally sued him for raping her during their eight year relationship. However, it was Christian Kief. His most loyal subjects that dealt keith the most grievous blow. She left him taking his son with her. But much worse than that. Kristen forced Keith to realize that his hold over nexium membership wasn't absolute, and that was unacceptable Keith taught students that he could control technology and the weather. How would it look if he couldn't even keep his own house in order? In two thousand, fifteen, fifty five year old Keith find the solution to the mutiny in his ranks, he decided to create a secret society of female slaves. He called the group Dos. Dos stood for Domino's obsequious sorority them Latin which they reportedly translated as master over the slave women like both consumers, line and nexium. Keith crafted the group to have a pyramid structure. However, DOS didn't sell discount consumer products like CBI nor self improvement classes like nexium. In fact, joining the group was completely free, but that didn't mean that there wasn't a price to pay. In order to gain access to the secret society next in women were forced into sexual slavery. However Keith knew that he couldn't enslave is female members outright instead he needed someone to put a glossy veneer on his heart's darkest desires in the past Keith would have likely turned to bubbly Pam K. Fritz to act as Dawson's unthreatening face as a member of Keith's original three woman Harem Pam was the cult leaders main Capo procuring him beautiful women to sleep with on demand, however, in two thousand fifteen. Pam was dying of cancer so Keith turn to Allison Mack instead. By two thousand, fifteen, thirty three year old Allyson was more numbered of Keith than ever. The depth of her feelings were evident when she sang Donny Hathaway I. Love You more than you'll ever know. At fifty-six birthday celebration with tears in her eyes, the emaciated actress crooned. I'm only flesh and blood, but I can be anything that you demand. Sentiments of that nature were also conveyed in an email. Allison sent to Keith according to journalist Ej. Dixon in the missive, Alison explained how grateful she was to be. Deepen Keith's thrall. How disappointing her own strides towards self empowerment had been, and how nothing made her feel so powerful has to be made by him to feel powerless in other words. Allison and Keith were perfectly matched. He wanted power, and she longed to be powerless. Unfortunately, controlling one willing woman wasn't enough to satisfy Keith desires to gain access to the scores of women. He coveted he convinced allison to be one of DOSES FIRST LINE SLAVES In addition to Allison Keith directly recruited seven other slaves, including prefect dot Lauren Saltzman these first line. Slaves were unique because they knew that Keith was their master, he convinced them that being enslaved to him would help them in turn become masters of their own lives once they bought into this paradox Keith encouraged them to recruit slaves of their own bus, becoming masters in their own right. According to the program unlike the women directly recruited by Keith the second line slaves had no idea about his role in the group they joined under the false pretense. The DOS was an exclusively female organization. Nothing could be further from the truth as the sole man atop the whole sado-masochistic Pyramid Keith was the grand master. And he had big plans for Dos according to Vice Journalist Sarah. Berman Keith, told Lauren that he envisioned the sorority amassing thousands of members to that end. He told her to work towards recruiting one hundred slaves. According to the program, the recruitment process went like this. Alison Lauren or one or the other first line. Slaves would approach a nexium member and asked them if they want it to be part of a secret society of bad ass, women who were dedicated to the empowerment of other women. This pitch was seductive, because it was always delivered by an upper level next-gen, wanting to be considered one of the elite. The recruit usually said yes. It was at that point that they were asked to provide collateral a sort of insurance policy. That would make sure. They kept the group a secret journalist EJ Dixon wrote that collateral often took the form of sexually explicit material, such as videos of recruit masturbating for postmarked false confessions that relatives or loved ones had sexually abused them. The implicit threat was that. If the women told anyone about DOS, their collateral would be released unbeknownst to the women. Even if they did keep the secret there. Incriminating items were usually shared with Keith. Once they provided material for their own future blackmail. Their recruit was officially a slave. This designation came with a whole new set of rules. First slaves had to carry out their master's commands. No matter what in order to prove this allegiance, they participated in readiness drills. This meant that slaves had responded texts from their masters within sixty seconds, no matter what our, even if it was the middle of the night, if they failed, they had to submit to punishment, recrimination took many forms, sometimes underperforming slaves were forced to take cold showers or made to stand barefoot in the snow other times they were puzzled or whipped journalist Colin Moynihan reported that on one occasion Keith even called in during a beating to tell. Tell the women to make sure that they snap their wrists in a particular way to inflict maximum pain on the slave, in addition to occasionally taking beatings, slaves were also required to meet three times a week with their masters at the start of these sessions both slave and female master alike were required to pose for a naked family photo in these pictures Keith insisted that women's legs be widely spread, and their vaginas prominently angled towards the camera as though this weren't intrusive. Enough slaves also had to follow a set of rules that dictated specifics about their personal appearance. Some slaves were required to adhere to a punishing five hundred calorie a day diet. They also were under strict orders not to groom their pubic care, lastly had to commit to remaining celebrate. They weren't even allowed to masturbate. The purpose of this particular set of rules was twofold I did ensure that the slaves fit Keith Sexual Preference for emaciated women who didn't lacks secondly it kept all their sexual energies in tight reserve, however, as mentioned initially, none of the second line. Slaves had any idea about Keith's involvement. They were told that they were doing all of it. The cold showers, the graphic pictures, the restrictive diets for their own empowerment. While it's difficult to understand how they bought into this justification. Their compliance was likely to societal messaging. We've all been subject to concepts like no pain. No gain you have to break a couple of eggs to make an Omelet. Sure getting paddled hurt, but if it made a person mentally tough enough to pursue the things they wanted wasn't worth it. In that same vein, a five hundred calorie diet was punishing, but at taught a person disciplined and delayed. Gratification weren't those good lessons to learn. It was all in the name of becoming a bad ass like they've been promised this second thing that might have made doses. Extreme path to empowerment seem acceptable was the larger self-improvement climate at the time in the two thousand ten's wellness enthusiasts were stuffing jade eggs into their vaginas. Silicon Valley Titans were injecting the. The blood of the young into their veins in light of that taking a cold shower and submitting to a paddling might not have seemed so strange, however like the frog in the pot of water once the second line, slaves had accepted Dasa's approach was a little off the wall, but temperature was turned up eventually one of the first line slaves like allison mack would give a second liner. The assignment also known as the order to Seduce Keith Ranieri. It was this task that upper level next year Monica Duran assigned to her slave, sylvie, according to journalist Amanda Arnold to fulfill her assignment. Sylvie was at first only required to send Keith explicit pictures and text messages eventually, however, she was subjected to physical sexual encounters. Arnold reported that in one incident. Keith performed oral sex on Sylvie after the encounter. He told her that he was her grandmaster sylvie. Later stated that at the time she felt so much. Much shame she felt everything was just lies and secrets and darkness. If Keith was aware of Sylvia's despair, it didn't bother him. Her Experience Mirrored House. Several of kice interludes with a slaves transpired once they were given the assignment by their masters. They'd proposition him sexually then Keith would either go down on them or have sex with them. However, intercourse wasn't always possible as Keith neared his sixties. Erectile dysfunction became a frequent problem according to journalists Rebecca Son. Son and Scott Johnson. A former next said that if Keith had difficulty getting an erection, which was often, he blamed it on her weight. Despite Kate's callous treatment, the members of DOS couldn't just leave the group. They were trapped there. Bondage was threefold first as longtime nexans, many of them had been indoctrinated by the precepts of genus to view men as being inherently poly-amorous, while women were monogamous, so in essence they'd been groomed to somewhat accept the setup. Setup of several women sleeping with one man. Secondly, Keith was revered as a deity within the group, so refusing his advances might not have seemed like an option. Lastly, members of DOS feared that if they did try to leave, their incriminating collateral would be released out into the world. How ever if the combination of this threat and their religious indoctrination didn't prove deterrent enough Keith's most devoted slave, allison mack was always there to bring disobedient members to heal. According to Scott Johnson and Rebecca sons reporting to analysis, slaves said the actress was incredibly intimidating, cruel and punitive when they balked at having with Keith. Allison allegedly screamed at them. You made a lifetime vow. Then she berated them and told them they were worth nothing that they were weak and couldn't uphold their word. She also told them that if they refused her orders dated, other men left the group or fused sex with Keith Day would be destroyed, but while at and may have seemed unfeeling on. On the outside internally, she was breaking down. Johnson, and son reported that around this time the actress panda veritable cry for help on her blog, writing cold sweats. Constantly, the anxiety of being caught makes my heart through from like a hummingbird someday I will be discovered I will be found out and yet ellison spheres is didn't prevent her. From engaging in the worst violation Dawson inflicted on its members on the contrary acting on Keith's orders Alison, insisted that slaves performed one more act of loyalty physical branding. When they screamed in agony over the hot cauterize ING pen, searing their skin, Alison instructed them to feel the pain and think of their master. Perhaps during these ceremonies, allison was doing the same in lieu of smelling the singed flesh. Maybe she cast her mind to Keith as for fifty five year old, Keith, his thoughts as always we're on himself. He was smart enough never to attend the branding ceremonies. However, he received pictures of his handiwork, and the site likely filled him with joy. After, all the brands were permanent proof that he still had control over his empire. He was the grand master. However, none of it would have been possible without his most loyal slave, and for that. Keith sought to reward alison. UNBEKNOWNST to the women, getting branded the symbol, being burned into their flesh, was a combination of the letters, A. Am and Kr Allison Mack and Keith Ranieri there are linked initials forever spelled out in blood. The brands might have been absolute, but Keith's Pyramid of Sado masochism was not already cracks. Doubt were beginning to form in the women who made up its foundation, and soon the whole thing would come crumbling down. Thanks again for tuning into colts, we'll be back Thursday with the final episode of our four part special will cover how news about nexium hit the tabloids leading to Keith's imprisonment for more information on Keith Rainier amongst the many sources we used. We found the program inside the mind of Keith. Ranieri by Tony Tally with Chet Hardin extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes. Episodes of cults and all other podcast originals for free on spotify, not only spotify already have all of your favorite music, but now spotify is making it easy for you. Enjoy all of your favorite podcast. Originals liked cults for free from your phone, desktop or smart speaker to stream cults on spotify just opened the APP type cults in the search bar will see you next time. Colts was created by Max Cutler and is a podcast studios. Original executive producers include Max in Ron Cutler. Some designed by Mike Romo's with production assistance by Ron. Shapiro Carly Madden and Joshua Kern. This episode of cults was written by Abi Galley. Eddie Mako with writing assistance by Abigail Cannon and stars Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson. High again is Vanessa before we go. I wanted to remind you to check out the new podcast. Original Series Mama knows best. Every Monday join social media icon. Ray as she goes to her mom, Sheri Nicole for advice on things growing up, it's entertaining endearing, and sometimes I opening I think you'll really enjoy it follow. Mama knows best free and exclusively on spotify.

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309: Scooting to the Couch

Rocket

1:07:39 hr | Last month

309: Scooting to the Couch

"Hello and welcome to rocket accelerated geek. Conversation i'm christina. Born senior club. Advocate at microsoft's. I'm joined as always by ryobu executive director of rebellion. Pack Roche four senior editor at a polygons is not with us because she has like traveler. Something wait wait a scam us. Simone is just brea nights night This this and this episode is brought to you by pinged them and setup bree how are you I felt a lot better. I don't know what you meant. Hold ever in last week but I had been putting off a Major surgery until after the election Basically rian my knees into absolute pieces through my twenty around five five thousand miles a year and I now a days. I'd be a little bit more careful with them. And when i was doing interval training i tore bunch cartilage in my knee so i had to have some serious surgery for them to fix it. Cut like this three inch light long scar from my knee down where they're drilling holes through my tibia till i wrote everything back into place and the stitch it back together. So i'm a lot of pain and It's hard because we've got to win georgia and you know trying to lead a team while i'm really not at my best. That makes sense. Yes yes yes. Well we're wishing you. Well i'm sorry that you are kind of still recovering and look. I'm glad that they were able to do this surgery right. It'd be back to running better than ever like in five weeks. So i just got tough it out Before the show starts though. I have to thank you for something but preview. Just a little bit intellectually dishonest. Share the story with you so give no. I am obsessed absolutely obsessed with speed running resident evil. Three the the new version of the remake of it. And i'm pretty good. I'm not like world class. Good but i'm pretty good. I'm top one hundred good for a for a game. That's wildly wildly popular for speed running. So i just speed run tonight those my best time yet. It's fifty three minutes and fifty. Three seconds very respectable time. Well into the top one hundred. But here's the trick. I did this on. Ps five so as i go to submit it. I'm like well how many people have even speed run this on. Ps five turns out on the first person to do it. So as of tonight. I can say on the number one speed runner in the entire world resident. Evil three on playstation five. No one has a playstation five years. It's a legit claim to fame but maybe fame but little a little disingenuous. Also legit hasek so congratulations to you. A running champion for resin given three on five. I'm gonna put an asterisk there because right now but the biggest people that don't play like it's gonna stand for while because it's so hard to get a ps fi and you still gotta have legit skills at this game to beat me which only about one hundred people in the world do so there. It is i love it. This is honestly. This is like the whole model of how the guinness book of world records works is that they a like other than you're not actually paying to have your record like inconstant in a book sponsored by a beer company side note did not know until i was much much much older That you know the guinness. The guinness book of world records was a beer company. Until i was probably like in late high school and i was like. Oh that's weird but yeah the whole model is it's like we find really obscure records. Very few people will ever try to achieve yup certify them like this is. You're you're the one person in this period of time has ever done. You know it's like it's like keith. Rainier a in that For the sexiest thing. Next the way they marketed. Nexium surly keith rene. He was in the guinness book of world records. One of the smartest martin. It's like in this one like polish dish and for this one and it was. It was not certified anything it was basically. It was like a take home test. And they're like we'll just trust you right so yes still number one still number one. I love it. i love it all right. So we're going to be talking about in addition to tabriz bad ass Resident evil three skills. We're gonna be talking about big sur. That's been out for mac For for for a little bit there have been some good things and bad things. We're gonna be talking about the big news that salesforce acquired slack and finally we have some delicious scam town lentil desserts. This is so good. Because usually scammed how does not intersect like like the tech audience of rocket. But this perfectly like. It's it's a perfect scale. It's the perfect scam. And without i don't want to spoil it but let's just say that this is a scam that our own gang did sort of consider pulling true which makes it even better. Okay so let's just get into a starting now. A big sur. So big sur came out. i guess. Now we're looking at about a close to costa three weeks ago now I think we mentioned Briefly on the show. Maybe it was last week that there were some Some problems that happened when people were the day that it was released. A we won't get into. We're basically a feature that apple has Allegedly to make sure that all applications you run our notarized or whatever The server crashed. And everybody's max or super slow on launch day so that was a thing but that launched snafu aside which went away. It's been out for a while now. I'm curious what are what are your thoughts on big surgery. Well i think this is why we went to wait a while to kind of to review it because there were so many reports that being just not a good idea in that first state that i wanted to give it a couple of weeks to you know. Install it on my production machines and shake it down. i've done that now and to discuss it with you so first of all. This is if you agree with me. This is absolutely correct. Mac to come out at the same time the one apple silicon macs. Because it's so close to iowa you agree with that right. I mean i still am rolling my eyes every time. There is an interview with craig and anybody else from apple and and they like poop. Who the idea that they're going to do a touchscreen mac it's like of course you are. Yes we know this. I don't care how much you try to like hedge and claim that you're not. You're not interested in this and that wind inevitably happens. You'll have some sort of excuse. The same reason why. The ipad mini ideal. Even though just years earlier steve jobs had called seven inch tablets tweens and said they had no purpose to exist like just like the ipod. Video was was said that there was no reason that anybody would ever want to watch video on an ipod. Like we're going to see touchscreen max at some point and i agree with you that this which is depending on what architecture. You're on either mac. Os eleven or like you know. Weirdly reports office a weird version of like mac os ten but it is. It's it's being basically marketed as this is mac. Os eleven god. This is a break in a lot of ways. kind of what. We have the last twenty years even though it still is architecturally similar and the fact that it does look so much like ios especially on the the apple silicon macs and think. It's freaky really ricky. How much it looks like it. You know i just remember back. When lyon came out which was what twenty. Eleven and log. Pat was in it in this iowa's like interface for launching things on mac and it came out. I was certainly grouchy about it. I complained about it. I'm like oh. Get that off my mac and now today like with big sur. The icons are the same. A lot of the spacing is the same. And i i hate to admit it by i kind of i'm into it. I mean how do you feel. So i'm not running on my production. Machines have it on a vm. But i am not at a point. We we'll talk more about this as we go on. I'm not a point where i trust it to work on my production machines And and and and that comes from have i can be quite candid What i think was one of the worst mac. Os releases of all time. And certainly the worst mac. Os ten release of all time. Which was catalina catalina. Was disaster was true disaster and a bad release some of the new things they introduced. Were good but from the rollout to you know like it honestly took me buying my twenty twenty mac to have it running on a fulltime machine. I finally just updated a laptop to it Finally now over a year. After it came out. And i still would if i if i really could roll back to two mugabe So i think that It is interesting in that. Sorry this is why. I have not put it on my production machines. Because i don't have any trust anymore. The way that i used to end and mac os. It's just totally on thick. This totally fair. By the way in the the big thing that caused upset with catalina obviously was losing thirty two bit support for apps. That's not present this generation though. I think it's fair to say. This upgrade has been shaky for a lot of people now. Because i've had surgery. I i'm not really you know not to allow our core stuff. It's mostly surfing today. Recording a podcast. But i can say for for that. Very limited use case using basecamp you know. Hey that it's been fine. Yeah yeah and there've been some various issues with different applications that you don't have the thirty two bit thing on this time and not wasn't actually my biggest concern with mugabe. I had other issues with their permission system and other stuff but there have been. This is the weird thing about big sur. Is that even though it looks the same it in some ways is two different releases depending on if you're running it on and tell talent if you're running on on the m one machines and yup and and and there are different limitations that i don't just mean as far as on the in one machines you can run. Ios apps Which every review. I think with the exception of of over a friend henry casey who was on to talk about his thoughts every reviewer has said the iowa experienced pretty terrible That doesn't mean that it won't get better but right now it seems like that's that's the biggest mistake but i think the bigger thing is they have continued to make some changes into how the system is locked down and so certain applications that were compatible. had struggle with different levels of compatibility with big sur So you were mentioning podcasting. Our friends at rogue amoeba have updated all of their apps. I think now for a big sur but there were some problems getting those things ruled out on the intel side And then on the in one side if you want to run. The rogue amoeba apps. It's in this is not robust fault at all. But the process of installing their applications is one of the most user hospil. I've ever seen because of the rigmarole that apple makes you go through to approve the ability to install Basically it's not. They're not calling kernel extension but but it is occurrence kernel extension. Yeah and and and the things that you have to do in rogue amoeba fantastic documentation and this is in no way a reflection on them to walk. You through that whole process is really really Not great and so. I'm glad though that your experience for everything you've been doing in in big serpent good. I do have to say that's interesting. You brought that up because the matt value installed this almost my laptop. Not my mac pro which everything roca me by makes on it so. I'm glad i did not try that yet and apple. You gotta treat people like me. But when we talk about maxine the the operating system of choice for creative people rogue amoeba they make the softest not just a dopey they make it possible. You should be treating them with a lot more Respect like because it's the right thing to do but because you're under a ton of antitrust Consideration right now. We didn't make it a topic this week. Google could be in some pretty serious stuff for For being hostile to their workforce. So i think cancer changing and i think I think it would be very smart to treat them with respect. Game back to big sur. Something i absolutely love about. It is control panel control panel. I came out for iowa's i didn't like it. It took a long time. I feel for a ticket. Good would you would. You agree with that you disagree. Yeah no i totally agree with that. And and i mean they were placed. What know and. I realized that they no longer looked good and didn't have. The modern looked like the the widget system dashboard. Yup was really good like it was functional and those those widgets worked really well and would they replaced it with something. I thought was pretty inferior. Yeah i have to agree with that. But the implementation big sur ally. The things you do very commonly adjust brightness Switched sound sources I use my ipod. Pros constantly is just absolute dream to switch them You now with a with a control panel. So i like that quite a bit. It's certainly better than going to system preferences in digging through a bunch of menus. That's something i really like. Also i mean do you. Rooms safari or chrome christina. I use microsoft edge. Usually we'll come home and because because there are certain extensions that i need to use an edge. doesn't have. It feels faster for whatever reason i think it just has less stuff in it. I do still use safari but my primary browser is is edge. Maybe under stubborn put i. I've just always stuck with safari because the battery is you know it's unless yeah the battlegrounds better There are a lot of extensions. And things are only going to work with chrome. But i just deal with that because i i really avoid google products whenever i can get away with that basically So you know. I thought The verge article sum this up really. Well it's a little bit faster than chrome in some circumstances but it's still hard to really point to anything. Safari does much better than chrome. So i think for most people like you if you need those extensions. You're probably gonna stick to chrome but safari is noticeably. Better this time around. that's great. Yeah no and. I think that this forty minutes is there's a kind of a sad irony instance. That like chrome started office fork of web kit which is up the engine that is used in safari and And then that eventually was forked and became blink when apple wouldn't move fast enough or the decisions that we will wanted to do with the rendering engine. What's happened is the we're in this weird place where you do have certain websites to just aren't optimized for anything other than chrome or or chromium based browsers and that includes You know fire fox includes safari includes anything else you wanna say. And so that's for some people you don't have the choice you know like in a perfect rose. Yeah i would just use safari. But i can't do that but that's good to know that it's that it's faster. Also the privacy report is excellent. You can go to any site in it. It blocks out of the trackers. There i understand that Journalism journalist outlets depend on as for of their ad sales. But it's you can really slow down your experience and for most sites. You can go up there to privacy reports in you can. It's very similar to the i forget. What the premium and blocker tool is called but you can see a number of trackers and it will block it automatically. That's cool that's cool. And and they had actually very. They've changed the extension model bit so that it is they keep going back and forth. They've changed this four times but it's Now where it's more similar to the chrome extension model which is also what what fire fox adopted which hopefully will mean it will be easier for people to create extensions for safari. The downside is you still have to have it tied to an actual mac app but the the way that the extension of himselves are built is different than it was before which hopefully will will open things up. So that's good to know about that Like control center you'd like safari what What do you think of the new. You know like like like messages app. And some of the other like catalyst apps that they've kind of redone. I'm so glad that you brought that up. Because i mean let's be really clear. I think the most compelling reason to stay in ios the apple ecosystem. Is i messages. It's funny there's nothing they're ever going to do has more lock in the net and it is fuller featured right like you can react. You can go down into different. You can message people more directly. It's just the entire experience is a lot more refined Like you can wish someone. Happy birthday and no one's going to appear. The balloons are going to appear in messages. There said that that's excellent as well. It's just a a level polish and refinement. I'll tell you. I really don't like though In you alluded to this at the beginning So many of the changes here are really used for a touchscreen and it. It's kind of the that assumed going to be using touchscreen and especially because it's so familiar from iowa s. I find myself. I've reached out to touch the screen. Many many many times. And i just i think when you think about what apple is choosing to do leaving touch bar on your matt like don't do that. Just give us touch. Max already wants it. It's time to get that done. Yeah no totally. And it's one of those things where it's like just because microsoft and and and microsoft windows and google chrome os have addressed tasha. Certainly on the desktop doesn't mean you have to follow that same paradigm like. That's the thing right like i think a lot of people would agree that maybe the nations aren't ideal. That doesn't mean that. I mean you're apple like win. And i have no doubt that when again touch touch inevitably comes shoe mac os because it will am sorry just it it. It will Whether you know they changed the name of something and it just turns out that your ipad experience in your mack. Experience are basically the same That is one of those things where i hope that they will no doubt i won't like we'll be leaders in that will make it a good experience. So how would you want to do that. Would you want them to introduce like a an ipad. Pro can of thing where it's a mac built into a a slate which you wouldn't be like an act that you could recline in use the stylus on. How do you want to see them. Bring touch to the bank. I don't know. I'm kind of in a weird place right now. I don't know 'cause. I mean both of those things i think. Would i think. Probably like the i mac kind of the service model where it reclines would make a lot of sense. But i mean. I'm just more thinking if we if we fast forward to kind of the inevitability the fact that you know in the next you know he's gonna be pretty fast all the max. That apple sells going to be. Running apple silicon. Which means that. They're all gonna natively run. I o apps and more and more people are going to be portraying their ios apps or focusing on those. Those are going to become backups. That's not to say that maps will go away. I'm sure that they will continue to exist. People continue to really optimize them. But it does say to me because i think the inverse. I'm like okay. So at some point once everything is natively compiled for arm. And like that. That'll take longer to. What then would stop you from running those natively compiled arm maps on an ipad. Right like obviously the only thing that would stop. You would be that apple saying we can't do us but that does make you think like okay. This is the same architecture. These are the same types of devices. It's just the interaction model is different. So i almost feel like you could take in a perfect world. What i would want them to do would be to add the finder and add some of those real things and and things like automated and a lot of kind of lower levels of tools and added to an ipad. Pro where where your primary interface is still going to be with your stylus and with you know touch but the fact is that especially since that you know. They pushed the magic keyboard and stuff that there are other pointing mechanisms. You can use to. And then you have this really big display that you can work on android john Alongside about stuff god. I think that's dead on in. Yeah it's like the stylus on the ipad pro. I don't use that most of the time right. But when i do want to use it. It's very very useful thing to have a railed in. I just wish that the go ahead and design max. I don't think it's ever going to be the primary way that people interact with their mex. But i do think they're going to be time set yet. Maybe someone just wants to flip their mac around into a tablet mode lay in bed and read it that way. That would be a really cool upgrade to see On on a mac or you know imagine like they. They work so much making their things and lighter. Imagine a mac that you really could disattached from the keyboard like an ipad pro. I would be very interested in that. So i just i like with these things converging i just. I think it's making less and less sense. So i'd like to see them do that anyway. That's why i don't like about big sur poodle and all like you haven't put it on your your mac pro yet. But that's only. Because i have to but scoot. I have to get down racers to get to the basement. And i've been on my mac pro very much. Yeah i will say that for for people who are like power users and certain things like most most reports. I've seen have been better than things. Where with catalina. That doesn't say a whole lot by but it is what it is. But i would investigate. I would investigate You know you were applications to see what is is working again. You know rogue amoeba. There are some you have to jump through. It works fine but you have to jump through some hoops installation. There might be some other things. I i would still encourage people who like if you like. There are certain applications that you don't know for sure updated or not and are very finicky and do more advanced things to investigate that before hitting the upgrade button. I think for regular people. It's fine but for everybody else. I i. i'm still going to recommend investigating before automatically going through it is kind of my take a thickness dead on this episode of rocket is brought to you by pinged them. Do you have a website. And does your website have a shopping cart or registration forms or a contact us page. If you answered yes to these questions then you need kingdom is nobody wants. Their critical website transactions to fail like. That's the worst thing you can imagine. Because that's a bad experience drew users and it could mean lost business for you but the good news is that you can set up. Transaction monitoring with kingdom and which transaction monitoring is is. It will alert you win cart checkout or forms or log pages fail which is really important so your site might be loading but these other components are failing and so you'll get notified when those components fail and you'll find out before they affect your customers and your business if i out that your shopping cart isn't working before you've lost a lot of business and ping them. Lets you know the moment that any of those fail. In whatever way is best for you. So you can customize your alerted and who's alerted depending on the outage severity and being cares a lot about your users having the smoothest site experience possible and it disaster strikes. You will be the first to do it. Super easy to get started. You can just go to ping dot com slash relay at 'em rate now for a fourteen day free trial with no credit card required. And when you sign up use the code rocket that's our ozk et at checkout and get a huge thirty percent off your first and voice. Thank you to pinged him from solar winds for their support of this show and relate. fm next up In some weird kind of im- in a news. This was rumored to happen. I think the end of last week and and in this closed our hasn't closed yesterday but it was announced officially at at the close of business on tuesday. Salesforce is buying slack for like twenty six billion dollars gal which is a little bit of modern a little bit it becomes one of the biggest You know tack acquisitions that we've seen in years. I think the only one that pure tech acquisition that at least i can think of been bigger than this recently has been The wasn't like chipset related or something like that has was a when microsoft bought linked in What was it like five or six years ago So twenty six billion dollars and this This is big news. What her well. I have a confession to make. I do. I try past the salesforce building here in boston all the time. Because it's right next to my house because of attack commentator. I really should know this. I'm swear to god. I'm still not sure what the hell's salesforce dot as best as i could tell it's kind of close to oracle. Yeah tell me what they do and why they would wanna get slack. Because it just doesn't make sense to me yet. No so this is. This is a weird thing because there obviously a really big enterprise software company although Interestingly i think more than than oracle does for for instance like salesforce technically can be used by smaller things to all the most people who use them are gonna be bigger businesses. But even though i work at a big software company and even though i've covered sales first before an even been to their dream force conference before which was one of the more bananas experiences of my life. I'm still awesome. I'll often like what did they do. So so they do. Crm listeners customer relationship management and the idea behind that is if you have sales leads hence why it's called salesforce you have an easy way of kind of a database to be able to manage your leads in in in your your sales actions and your customers and and what's been going on with them it can also they can be used in different ways for if you're trying to do like if you're offering customer service to someone and you need the assistant that's often kind of triage around how you have issue tracking and You know monitoring requests or complaints or things that are coming in that happens. There are a lot of schools around that. Sap is another company. Does some of that stuff in there also gigantic massive enterprise company that most people don't really know what they do myself included but yet like genuinely you know hundreds of thousands of businesses you know use them and and and they they they take in like salesforce took like twenty billion dollars in revenue or something for the last fiscal year like these are not small companies. These are massive scale. Okay but this is. Why don't understand about when i think about slack. I have no doubt that they're major companies out there that microsoft account on slack. Why think about the slacks. I have joined. It is Injury gangs humanity forward a group of volunteers to win georgia who we are working with his organization The relay slack. There's a speed running slack for resident evil three. I think about like these small hyper targeted groups. That don't really have anything to do with enterprise software sales and when i think about what slack dies you know giese but it seems like an increasingly fungible product. I think microsoft teams got a bad reputation at the start. It's undoubtedly getting better. So it just seems i don't understand the culture fit with salesforce. I don't understand the valuation. I don't. I don't understand how buying slack funnels volunteers in georgia into the sales for software pipeline. Mike crazy. you're not. You're not. But i think the bigger thing here is that you know once slack went public. I think a lot of what slack did and was doing Became a little bit different. At least this is my perspective. And i see this with the disclosure that i work at microsoft. You obviously has a direct competitor microsoft teams. I don't work on teams. I actually use both slack and teams at work And and from you know strictly from kind of a what. I'm used to perspective. I do think that from a pure messaging standpoint slack is better. I do feel like though at this point to your point. It's become kind of fungible. Because that component especially it has become less important in some regards to a lot of businesses a look at the rise of zoom people need ways to be able to share you know to have meetings together and and to share files and that is actually where teams is really. Good is that. It's essentially sits on top of share point which a lot of people Understandably happy tst from but fundamentally offers a a really good thing which is giving you a massive kind of you know like you know. Vile collaboration file share system. And and i think that as as an interface for share point which is basically what it is. I think actually teams is quite good. And i think that in more ways i think that for a long time salesforce has been trying to get into that space. So they've they've made some acquisitions related this. They bought a company called quip About five years ago I think they spent close to a billion dollars on it and this was a company that was very small. They didn't have a lot of pain users that they think acquired primarily for its founder and ceo who is a really smart guy In quip was kind of like a reimagined. Google docs and it's a collaborative kind of work Space and and productivity tool at salesforce. I also had a platform that they launched a decade ago called chatter which was all about trying to kind of bring a kind of trying to create a facebook for enterprise. And they've since shifted the chatter platform kind of away from that but ironically that was originally a play to go after yam or before yam or to become more like what slack was in kind of its early days and so sales. I have been trying to get into this. This way of trying to have kind of an indy end. Ownership of how businesses manage to communicate with one another for awhile and so i think from that perspective. It does make sense to have something like slack where you can say. Look all of our internal office. Communications everything that we do as well as the way that we can interact with their customers and bring them in and share things specifically with them can happen within this platform. And i think that has value to it to your point. I think where it's it's a little bit more fuzzy. And i think this is why there's been a lot of concern from kind of regular users about this sale is what does this mean for. You know the release lack and for people who aren't giant companies. You might have enough. As reading some inter-. I was reading an interview last night from overall. I think this is from the summer That ben thompson had with a sewer butterfield's about Some of the ways that slack is used and and stewart butterfield is the founder and ceo of slack and he was mentioning that they have some business clients. Who have you know. Twenty two thousand channels in their slices which is massive nelson. Me now to me that would that. That sounds like my health. I'm being completely honest like that. That seems like how how navigate that but if businesses have found a way to do that i think that could be useful and so you have these things where you have these slack users at massive massive scales and it seems like. That's a really good fit for well. Salesforce versus going. I think though that why people are concerned as this what does it mean for these smaller businesses and organizations and communities which really were how many of us came to know slack and how kind of went viral and and frankly how it was adopted by bigger businesses And not. I think remains to be seen like i. I don't wanna be super pessimistic about it but you know salesforce. It's the company that likes to make money and and and they know how to make money. And i don't anticipate them. You know shine away from that like you. Don't spend twenty seven billion dollars and something to make the free tier of your product. So much better is all. I'm saying i feel you on that. I just you know it's like when rebellion was started. We needed a group You know we need a slack product right. We certainly looked at slack. But i tried. Hey very recently which. I just loved being email and it was like. Oh why don't we try base camps if that's any good frigging love base camp the to that list. It's simple in. I'm sure i could do. All of this was slack. But it's it's just you're talking integrations and trying to. I just be a whole thing. Interest base camp. It's there and the pricing is a billion times better. I think it's like a hundred bucks a month. No matter who. I hire or fire for my team which is awesome right and and i think there are a lot of people like me that when it comes to the basic feature of slack which is just creating rooms and letting people talk their in a way that's private and collaborate during work hours. I think that's really really damn fungible product so congrats to salesforce. I'm sure it will be useful manner price. But i think microsoft teams is gonna eat half your lunch and good luck with it overall. Yeah already teams. And i'm going to link to some some things for anybody who's interested in the show notes. I've been thompson at a strategy sherry. they just Host he had some really really good Insights into slack and teams. That i thought were really good as well as his analysis on on the deal today which is behind a paywall. But it's really really solid. I've got those in our show notes. I will say i think that. Ironically what hasn't been discussed as much. And i think this is a huge opportunity. The what i think when we look at like everybody's talking about slack versus teams versus zoom versus google meter. Whatever what doesn't get mentioned as often as dischord. And i think this is a massive opportunity for dischord because i feel like i feel like in the last year so slack has for reasons that they have to their public company. They have to make money. From what i understand. They've been losing money. Which is understandable because this is how these types of businesses work and they've been trying to build on their paint customer base and they are going head to head against yes a a trillion and a half dollar giant who is not messing around and and some people might argue isn't playing fairly although i'm going to be biased. And like i think. I think all fair in love and and you know in these games and bundling is what it is but you know. They're going head to head with with people who aren't you know sitting on the sidelines for the high paid users whereas if you look at for community spaces and if you look at for for smaller organizations and people wanting to have a really fast experienced and and really excel at the stuff that i think early slack did well. I was hit. That's discord right now. I have to agree with that. And you know it's too bad because it's really associate with toxic gabor's it's changed though right like i actually think and i have to give the discord team a lot of credit for that because they they fought back a lot on that and I'm now it's interesting. I'm in war. Community related discourse that. I am slacks at this point. And i actually think that discord could do an inverted model wherein they could actually charge people for the ability to self host. Your own dischord because right now. It's all hosted. Undescored was means that it's not ideal for certain enterprises or people who might want more control over things. But i would pay money to be able to have full control. Over my dischord myself and self hosted i would happily and i think a lot of other people would chew but even for less than that i think just in terms of how fast it is and if i were starting to community tomorrow for instance i wouldn't start slack. I was start a discord and So i i think that it'll be interesting to see as we get into like the the super high end which obviously is competitive and we're talking about massive amounts of money about who will win one thing over another the some of the People who don't use slack because that's what their offices chosen to use of they use it for other ways. I think that discord is is going to become the interesting thing you know i'll also note I am always mad about campfire. Witches basically now been rolled into base camp because campfire fire was still to me the best kind of work place chat sort of solution and we use that for many many years before we had to migrate to slack because Basecamp of said that it was no longer a real priority for them and so i not surprised at all that you'd like basecamp and that it works for you because campfire was really good. I've never used campfire gap. That's the core of what we use. All day everyday is campfire in basecamp. that's amazing. Oh my yup. This episode of rocket is brought to you by a set app. There's an app for everything these days. Some are excellent and others not so much and a great way to discover new quality apps and get all the tools you need to be successful and productive by using setup which is a subscription for mac apps and set up his awesome. It has over two hundred applications in one. And there's an app for almost any task so you can say in your flow and finish what you started. And now you can actually take your projects to your iphone and ipads with support for iowa's companion apps for your mac favorites like ulysses or to do and task heat and set up has dedicated curation team that not only selects the highest quality apps. This is like my dream job Which basically means that. You don't have to spend time search for great tools but it's also a really great value because instead of paying thousands of dollars for separate appliances you just pay one low monthly fee and so new apps are added regularly updates or free and all the apps are there full featured pro version. So you're not getting anything cut down. You're getting the full versions of the apps the full licenses and You can head over to south dot com to try setup for free for a week and if you like it you pay just nine ninety nine per month for as long as it's useful to you and honestly it will be I have been a setup user for years since they launched it is genuinely one of my favorite subscriptions that i get. There's so many good apps on the platform. So i encourage you. If you are a mac user who is wanting to have access to a lot of high quality software where you don't have to worry about was good and what's not head over to set up dot com to see how it fits in with your workflow. Our thanks to set up for their support of this show and all of relay. Fm okay so psyched about this topic. I was gonna say. I was gonna say breed. Give us some background this because you're one who discovered best because all all i know is that i saw. What's that message is being like scam mac. Pro something another was like wait. What yeah okay. So tell this. This is so beautiful so there is as we all know Our best president ever Donald trump has not conceded and is continuing to Have some legal challenges in court One of his lawyers is sydney powell or was his lawyer before she was fired Who believed the reason. Donald trump did not win is because of a voting system called dominion Run by hugo chavez a miscounted votes in georgia basically because of a massive influence of foreign money into our election system One of the women working with miss. Powell is data scientist In the uk and she recently put out a call Basically asking people to help her do the kind of research that she needs to do to verify that this election is a sham that was stolen so basically she wants to together through and do a bunch of a regression analysis on the information. That's not interesting. What is interesting is what she was asking for to get this done. It wasn't a a donation it was It was a mac pro so she was making the call sheets anger. Read the tweet right here. This is from sarah. Eagles field seeking benefactor. Get me a mac pro. I'm able to actually audit voter data. I have now over. One hundred gigabytes cost a ridiculous amount and this work will go slow until i read and then she posted the link to the mac pro. She wants which is the fifty one thousand mac pro with. I believe it's twenty four course if you convert the pounds over two dollars. I do believe that that is sixty thousand dollars. And she's also asking for the british pounds. Eight thousand dollar. Pro display x dr so christina here a little bit familiar with working with large data sets. I don't do it yourself but yet i'm sure you're you're in a position to evaluate is a mac pro so machine Is it eighty is eighty. One thousand s are sixty. Seven thousand dollars mac. Pro a machine so would need to analyze one hundred gigabytes whereas is funny right. Because i am actually familiar with some large data sets in there are certainly some really really large data sets that would require that level of mac pro i can tell you that one hundred gigabytes close. I can tell you the one hundred gigabytes were like. This is cute like honestly like that. That that doesn't even meet the qualification for big data Yes it's probably going to be overpowered for. You know you're You're lower powered macbook air or four for a laptop But that is absolutely not something that you need a computer of of of that size or expense or capacity to twenty four cores for hundred gigabytes. I mean it's pretty. It's pretty hysterical. Actually there's the question if so just to be clear. Almost ruined the works with this kind of data actual data would use like an aws note or something like that. Rent a node and let me tell you. Sixty seven thousand dollars will get you a lot of compute time to calculate this stuff. So that's that's a whole thing right there but totally. She claims a according to twitter. I've seen that the reason she has to have a mac pro is for security which is hilarious because she's working with public data. The anyone can request an gap from the secretary state. You might have pay for it but this is essentially. It's it's not. It's not ultra codeword classified data so that's just flat out not true right exactly and then there's a question of how you would even use us like she's asking for a model with like literally ten times the amount of ram ask the voter file that she's trying to work with with twenty four cores which is just joke. Yeah what's interesting about this though. Is that when. I look at the gifted. I mean you're part of me has to be like. oh yeah. The gift is really awesome. Who way to try to get that money. But like i have no guests. Faith in the competency of somebody who purports to be like a data scientists who would say this is what i need to analyze this amount of data like if you respond to say and i one hundred gigabytes data like is i need to spend sixty seven thousand dollars on a computer. i'm going to be like. Yeah no you don't now any analysis that you have of this is going to be suspect me because i have no faith that you actually know what you're doing. I'm trying to understand what she would even be using it for outside some very basic spreadsheet functions figure out. What the reported a vote totals were in a precinct. Votes is the number of people that voted in a in a past election. Because when i think about the the mac pro and what. That's really used for the kind of person that would need a macro pro. Twenty four course is someone that is like constantly Compiling a build of a of a of a game or something for a very very large team of like two hundred people or doing three renders all day. Long though. god knows why you would do that on. A mac is probably cheaper to do for. Which many people do It's it's it really is a situation where there may be a few hundred people on earth that would really justifiably need a map like that and all of them really really really need a mac like that but almost no one else does. It's just it's it's laughable in part. I really can't get pass krisztina. I wonder what you think about. This is the x t r monitor. I was laughing my butt in apples in apples presentation. when they're going down to the fab lab for the chip architecture and they're using x t r monitor stand there. Dixie monitors very pretty looking monitor but is wildly overpriced. well it's not as wildly overpriced. It's fairly priced. If what you do is professional color gradation meaning your job to make a vendors. Want to look like avengers. One or your compositing nuke and making sure. The color of a rendered explosion matches your scene. Or some very very hyper specialized colorizing use with that. Not even most professional photographers would need something so beyond like color profiles right unless they are regularly trying to match look of one thing to another thing so the thought that a data scientist right six thousand dollars monitor. It's just a griff man that's all it is no. It's a hilarious script. I'm like i know i see this. How how is this actually serious. Because you're exactly right. Like i don't think the if you need it i don't think is overpriced. But you sure as hell don't need it for analyzing data honestly because most of the work that's going to be done which also as you mentioned the frankly the graphic card that max us are not the graphics cards that most data scientists use the Invidious khuda and that's how they're doing a lot of the processing frankly so it's not even the right like ship sets up sorry But like you know you're you're it's running and crunching numbers. It'd be like compiling code. Like does it look nice short. Do you need this. Six thousand dollar monitor no like she's not john syracuse okay. Lightly john siracusa needs to play destiny and also his nerdy stuff right and and and and but but john also knows how ridiculous is has paid for it. Himself brand is amazing and and has has spent has gone on links about the ridiculous saga with with his his mac pro which i love and adore thinking and listeners. Will it be before it. Got my my most recent amac. I did for a half second. Consider getting a mac pro and then smartly decided against it but we joked So frequently last year. That i that i wanted to have by christina mac pro dot com like i wanted to run. I think for that the we had some listeners. Actually reshot and say. Oh you know i i. I would be willing to contribute something to buying christina amac pro and we were like no no note. Thank you so much for for offering. That was the sweetest thing but a it was me. Just kind of being flippant and be like. I don't need it. If i did i would i would pay for it myself. I wouldn't be begging on twitter For a purpose like this. It's just it's it's really gross especially when you're doing nonprofit You're basically running raising money for political cause. The most extravagant thing i have bought for rebellion pack was an api nass network attached storage because we produce commercials constantly. We did We've done five. We've produced five commercials in two weeks. And i need a place like we're generating massive amounts of data and even before spending two thousand dollars on a nasty that i think is a reasonable thing for a pack that produces a lot of videos to have around right. They're still apartment. It's like is this a good use of our donors money because you've you feel intense responsibility a brighter bright. I had gp today. We had an outage. Yesterday i spent You know our on the phone negotiating contract with them. Not because i get any money for doing that. Because i've got to be responsible with my donors money and saved a few thousand dollars doing that. It's just the ethical standards of what you hold yourself to in this world really really really matter so i find it so personally insulting that like for me. I won't even get us an iphone for a business expense. Because i use it as a personal thing too and this woman is asking for almost one hundred thousand dollars of mecca question. It's ridiculous no. I agree and i i mean the whole thing. I guess especially huge griffin. And if you look at the results which linked in our shown as you can see the ratio on. It is just bananas. And i don't know if she ever answered any of the comments about it or or defended in any way but i'll tell you how she's been responding to criticism. She poses one breathless thing. And she's like oh in this one county y'all it's look really bad. Why is the vote. Total so reported here. It dropped by almost twenty percent. What's going on. is this fraud in. Somebody's like go. drexel university. Were john. gruber went to. School is actually outright dell. Your vote totals dropped a little bit and that she's at the rather than go. Oh i'm so sorry. She's like she she posts this like thing she said. Thank you for the help with researching like voter fraud and getting to the bottom of this interest. this way. That fundamentally feels detached from reality. From from where. I'm reading it so again. Just feels like a huge scam to scam. I do have a question for you. What item would you most like to griffin. You're you're you're on wedding supporters by you like like like like like what would your version of this to be because this is really audacious. Now i feel like you know i feel like we need to one up this in some way so i feel like for us to record rocket every week. Sometimes i'm coming back from meeting so very clearly need a porsche. Turbo nine. Six four paid for by the network relay at our listeners. To help me get on the show. What about you christina. Yeah no. I mean i think that that's that's a fantastic point. Yeah for me. You know. I i really Feel like my current office. Where i record isn't an ideal situation for me and i feel like i do. Need to have a fully built out soundproof. Studio room with with high end lighting and cameras and i. I need a full of flexibility. But to get that i'm gonna need a house so i would really like to have a house on on mercer island here in the seattle area in the same neighborhood as bill gates and steve bomber. That's that's what i would like. I think that's the only way i can do my job. And you can also find out if the election was fraudulent there said trump supporters police christina enough money to have her dream house. That will exactly know. That's the thing we need to make sure that that all these you know microsoft millionaires and some of them billionaires have You know that they're they're votes. Were counted fairly so please please. I can only find that by becoming one of them becoming one of those those millionaires so full troop exact needs to happen. Only this investigative journalism and data science. This is this is multiple things and brie needs. Needs her knees her porsche to be able to get her to places on time so that she can record all the important works that she does complete second house on an island. That's much better. yeah vicar. That's gotta think bigger think bigger. Yeah so i i saw. I saw some funny things of his shoes. Asking for like the mac pro. Like why are you not asking for a ps five. Like like like like like like like we're all like asking for the impossible right now like that's not that that's that's the real lost opportunity. All right Well that does it For our main topics. Bree what are you doing this week. I gotta be honest. I'm healing trying runner georgia team as best as i can. Just we really honest. This surgery has hit be really hard. I'm sleep on ten eleven twelve hours a day In i didn't understand it until i took the surge old bandages off and it's just a giant set of scar tissue at this point like i've been laying in bed him like sarah. An iphone cable undermine knee as like no just this massive thing of stitches under there so I'm trying to heal from that. Obviously we're doing a lot of work in In georgia right now. We've got an ad coming out this week. I'm really excited about You trump has encouraged so many people to To a said it's a sham georgia. Your home state is behind the sham of Voting s donald trump's. He's telling people not to vote. And we have a wonderful add. This can be coming out. As targeting georgia republicans just having the president's words. They're just telling them not vote in the special election to stay at home until the elected republicans Fix this mess will be premiere. that's fantastic. that's interesting. Yeah so take time. You need to heal. I think that a lot of times and smoke. And i were talking about this last week. Actually and And i know this is easier said than done because both of us are the type of people who give good advice than don't take our advice can say is important to take the time you need for yourself because when i look back and i've come back to stuff too early. It hasn't been good and we're talking about you know your health you've recovered from major surgery. You're talking other stuff going on. Like i know you feel like you have you. You feel like a commitment. I've got to do a million things. Take all the time that you need. Because it's it's it's crucially important but we've also got wind georgia. I know you. I know i know but the thing is the work is never gonna stop and there's never going to be a good time to take time for yourself so somebody who loves you and i say this again somebody who is terrible taking my own advice so i say this server back to work after you got hit by that car christina. Why yeah. I know we mentioned this and i was like that was stupid and i look back at. I'm like no that was bad. That's not something anybody should emulate. And and and so part of the reason. I say these things out loud is to hopefully the next time. Something happens where. I need to take time off where i'm like. No you know what. I'm gonna take the time that i need Because i'm saying this out loud so support you and that god this last week. Y'all were like take time off. Don't come on the show. And i'm like was fine. I'll and then i come back to consciousness and it's like one in the morning because all asleep literally where i was there. It is no. That's just fine and we. We're actually relieved. We were like no you need to take time for yourself and and And we are glad that you did so as for me this week. i'm Got some work stuff you know. It's always back from holiday week but yeah we got finishing up some stuff for the end of the year. I regret to inform everyone that i have watched. All of the new safe by the bell. Ribas is it good. Is it good. It's good it's good. It has no right to be as good as it is. I'm not saying it's fantastic television. 'cause it's not it's not ted lasso or anything which is like the best show on tv. But it i. I laughed and i enjoyed it way more than i had. Any right to and Dammit it's good like it's it's not. It's like the complete one eighty from what they did. With the full house reboot like the showrunner and executive producer is a former thirty rock writer. And it's definitely has that sort of sensibility. And that the kid who plays zach morris's son is kind of an unrepentant like path but but but yet likable like but like everybody kind of acknowledges that he's terrible and that a lot of the kids that are other show kind of terrible. I enjoyed it. I i watched the whole thing. And i was like god damn it. This is really sick now. I have to watch this. I wasn't that big a fan like everybody watched saved by the bell. The ninety porteous did it was it was it was you couldn't evaluated right But it was funny because when this was announced You know obviously jesse from say by. The bell was in showgirls. Most infamously bad movie of all time. Which i find a guilty pleasure and you mentioned a book called Hollywood animal by By esther house The writer basic instinct and In showgirls and and you're talking about a story in the book of him snorting cocaine off of jesse say by the bells Boobs and i'm like well i've gotta read this book. It's an amazing book so long. It's just so long gone. Chipping away at it. I'm just a night. The showgirls part to find out that story. But i just. I don't know so i feel linked to jesse enough this whole journey of reading this book and i need to i need to. I need to watch three bit. No you do and you have. I have to say so. It's interesting so done the reboot. Is that zack. Morris is now the governor of california and he had some sort of budget problems and the whole reason that he ran for governor was that he got a parking ticket and to get out of the parking ticket he somehow decided to run for governor and won and he had to cut school budgets for for some sort of reason and so they ended up on some of these lower income schools and people protested. And they're like well. Why don't we send you know talking. Oh i went to a great school in the palisades and they're like well. Why don't we send some of the from these display schools to you. Know your your fancy rich. You're you're you're old high school where your where your son goes. And so it's kind of a fish out of water thing where these kids are kind of have to assimilate into this ridiculous world's And the only people who are From the original who are in all episodes like there in the opening credits are slater in jesse He is now kind of a washed up gym teacher who his life kinda sad but it but he kind of leans but it's great because his career has been the best out of all of them right. I mean i would say guzzler but it was. He was he was on pd blue. He was on He's been like he's worked consistently since he's been on. Tv like mario lopez extra like is paying him a lot make mistakes but but like mark pug osler has actually been on like primetime consistently for the last week. I just haven't seen anything he's been in. I've seen morio low puzzle a lot of things but he's he's a host but anyway i'm just saying like totally he is the one who probably still has the most like know people look at me like oh yeah you know i i know that is or but So funny and then jesse is the guidance counselor. She a better actor now like as she learned acting all the save the way that she leans into the characters pretty funny because her son is like this very woke jock and but he's very sweet. He's very dumb but he's very woke and she is. Like the quintessential lake helicopter. Mom who over babies her child's and but is also like a woke intelligence. You know School educator so The whole thing is pretty funny. They had the probably my favorite episode was the one where they had Like it was for the homecoming dance. And all of the old cast with the exception of screeched because he is banished after the book that he wrote about all this cast mates which she then later claimed was like. Oh well that was the ghostwriter and i didn't know they were gonna put any of that seven. I'm like dude you went on howard. Nokia went on howard stern and continue to talk smack about all cast as in share stories from the book. I'm like why would. Why would tiffany ever talk to you ever again after the stuff you said about her on howard stern about the book you now claim you didn't right It was someone else's work like none of these people who are all listed as executive producers. I might add meaning that they have like they had producer credits rather than i mean. They're getting paid for. Some of the four main cast members all got paid. I'm like yeah. Dustin diamond has never getting on this show because the other four of them will be like no but but there was a kind of a facetime moment with with the girl who played lisa. But the whole thing. I enjoyed because it was sort of like the the realization of how all of those characters would be in real life now and how kind of insufferable all be when they were kind of fighting together mean self absorbed but it was done on a really funny tongue in cheek. Way that i really appreciate it. Enjoyed and That's the thing that i met a mad about. The show is that it was really tongue in cheek and really funny in ways that i was mad about it. But it's good. I will say this for anybody. Who's on the. Because i totally. There are better things you can watch. Certainly but if you've ever watched the great youtube series called zack. Morris is trash which they would take an episode of that is so good. Yes they go through an episode in they analyze it. And you see zack. Morris is actually the worst human being completely for not a role model sexist horrible to his friend. And it's and it's hilarious. And i still love and stands stanback morris and marco gossip number one crush to this day but anyway the guy who who created that was the voice over. He is one of the writers on this series. Scott that's amazing. Oh so so so so so yeah too bad tv. I've got to ask you about good tv. Did you watch the undoing. Yes oh my. God has similar in this. Should we save it for next week but always save it for next week. Ooh i love that show. I love your show so much. I finally went back and watch big little lies which is a whole nother discussion. But any a totally okay. So all right. That's that's that's for next week but yeah i anyway. Sorry i regret to inform all. But yeah if you like zack. Morris is trash and you likes thirty brock and you've had ninety s in the salva. You should definitely watch the new save by the bell. Because i regrettably very good. I will do that all right. Bree where can we find you on social media couch dot com and brianna will twitter all right and you can find me at film underscore girl on the twitter and the instagram's if you like this podcast We would really appreciate it if you would give us a rating and review an apple podcasts. And also tell your friends about how much you enjoy. Our conversations about mac pro scams and nineties tv share reboots and You know sometimes. Real tech news analysis like like like what a multibillion dollar Soffer service acquisition means for us the people who really just want to share dank names with our friends but but anyway Please a leave us. Leave us a rating review. Thank you again to set up. And ping for sponsoring. This episode of this of rocket is a terminated terminator.

apple mac salesforce microsoft thirty two bit iowa twenty six billion dollars ryobu Pack Roche three inch fifty three minutes keith rene catalina catalina google henry casey mugabe georgia one hundred gigabytes catalina rian
FFR 142: The Witches of Eastwick

Feminist Frequency Radio

1:02:54 hr | 3 months ago

FFR 142: The Witches of Eastwick

"Friends did you know that feminist frequency recently launched the Games and online harassment hotline while we sure did it is a confidential text based emotional sport resource for folks who make in Klay Games you can learn more at games hotline dot Org and please please help us spread the word. So we can reach the people who need it the most. What drew I might imagine these Great Women Susan Serandon Share Michelle Pfeiffer to this film is it. It's a film that has something on its mind like it's at least trying to lake stir up these ideas around you know gender and women's roles and like sexual power dynamics and things like that. Welcome to feminist frequency radio. This is the show that asks you to be critical of the media you love I'm Anne disarm and I'm joined today by two women who would cast powerful spells to not be in a group sex thing with Jack Nicholson Caroline Pettit that magic is already in place and his very strong. and. We are throwing powerful. Heck's is. God. It's good. This week, we're going to be talking about the witches of Eastwick stay tuned. Hello friends. Hey Hello I would like to share that last week caroline talked about how she's been going on these long walks in that that has been. Helpful to your mental health and what have you and you inspired me to do the same. So every day after work like work hours I, go for a thirty minute walk and even when I was to I, still do it and it's lovely and I've done it every day except yesterday for the week. So thank you. Hiring me. Here you're welcome and I'm glad that you are also finding the benefit beneficial like there's definitely that reluctance sometimes I feel like I don't. WanNa do it today but you know like sometimes I'll be out there for like. Ten Ten fifteen minutes being like why the fuck am I doing this I hate this? Well. So the other thing I'm doing is I'm not bringing my phone. So that's like. That is like I'm trying to just leave my phone at home and not have anything with me. So sometimes I'm just like in my head and being like I don't want to be here and then. Just like a breakthrough that happens at some point in middle that look I've been doing it a week it's not. Exactly what I was laughing. I was like this is not the place I want to be right now in my head. Yeah. But I hope that I keep doing it and I. I you know I I was thinking about how people inspire people in different ways and small ways, and you don't know how what effects that might have and like. Here's a very direct effect. I felt better this week in that was part of it. So thanks caroline. I'm just glad to hear that. You're very welcome. I also have a another fun fact that he's not about my life. Yeah. The in the film we're GonNa talk about stars share Yes who am strangely in love with why strange? Rationale or just fact Sharon I share the same last name. So clearly, we need to be best friends I mean I don't know what you mean share doesn't doesn't have. Any. mystere Your Altman. Yes, clearly Yep Yep Cheryl men. Could you imagine her name is Cheryl Bolen Jesus? You know. Share is. Armenian. Sent. Let's go. I think a lot of people don't know that I don't know that I thought she was Greek. Yeah well, there is a law of cultural overlap between Armenian and traditional Armenian culture and traditional Greek culture so that that makes sense. I don't actually know like her what her parents. Sure. I'm actually looking at her father was Armenian and looking at wikipedia right now and her mother was claimed in Wikipedia says she claimed to be Irish English. German, and at Cherokee so. I feel like that that particular mixture was a real popular one. People for people to claim. These white ladies who were like, but I'm an Indian princess. Cherokee. I. Want I know we need to get into it but I once? was what I lived in the mission in San Francisco Years, ago. It was Halloween Oh, the appropriate for the recording time of top. Topical. Yes and There were three women who were dressed up in sexy Halloween costumes. I hand the story already and a man taking a photo of them. It was right outside of. TACO delicious. There is that like mural wall right there. And so they're taking pictures there and it was just super gross, right? It was like these like. I've already laid the same. You know what I'm talking about and I was just I was not having it that day I was just in a fucking mood and and one of them was dressed as like quote unquote sexy Indian. And I, lost my shit on. So I was walking by and the woman had the nerve to be like I'm part Indian and I was like I don't believe you like I. Just I don't mean to be a Dick and I'm sure there are people who are listening that are like how like how dare you? Whatever I was like if you really were, you probably wouldn't be dressed up in like dollar store stereotypical like jokey costuming. Emily be clear when I say like I hate the story already it wasn't about sexy Halloween costumes. Is because they're always so dumb. S, yeezy like the ones that are actually funny and. Sexy in gigantic bold print neon quotation marks. The sexy finey totally down with or just like whatever you WANNA wear Kuku. Lingerie dress like. Prints in the revolution from the eighties. Love you know three but like sex C. N. B. Princess or like sexy copper when I'm just like yellow. So tired just spent two more dollars at party city get a different wig in a different polyester costume I, beg of you. I give you and also I feel like you know. I don't know this is a very large generalization, but you probably wouldn't wear costumes that made fun of your. Culture. You know like you. You probably wouldn't wanNA participate in the like the degradation and the the appropriation and the humiliation of your people. So fuck those three women from to. Twenty five thousand years ago. For their. Choices. I like to think that. Somewhere, those three women are still talking about Halloween the mid like, do you remember when we were walking down the St Louis and that. Was The neatest are keys. So you started yelling at us. Yeah. Well, okay. I have one more thing to share. This is total bonus episode. Everybody. Vance I but I do because we're talking about. Halloween costumes. Remembering the other day how years ago I had messages from several people who dressed up as me for Halloween because that's going to their game studios like to be the scary thing that men fear. With hoop earrings red lipstick. Yes and a plaid shirt because the first videos is our. News it was there. So good anyways. I was just reminded of it because somebody tweeted out me. a couple of days ago there costume from years ago and I was like. Oh Bet they were so cute. It was lovely. Everybody okay. That is actually ask something about a bonus episode because. He does exist and we're GONNA get on with the main now. Okay. All right y'all this week we are wrapping up our semi spooky cult theme Nostalgia Watches with nineteen eighty seven's the witches of eastwick starring Susan, Sarandon, Michelle Pfeiffer, and share the film was an adaptation. John. Updike's novel about a trio of female friends who come into their witchy glory by surrendering. To Passion and the wily manipulations of Jack Nicholson as the joker. nope Darryl Van Horne. Really, the same character upon arriving in the picturesque Rhode Island town. Of Eastwick the Devilish Daryl uses his impish charm to encourage women to live freely love boldly and relish the divine power of the feminine or something. But what starts as sexy fund release from social constraints ultimately ends when the friends realize that far for being different from the disappointing men, they're accustomed to the diabolical darryl is just another entitled, Male? Jerk. I had never seen this movie before and time sad about it. I thought. So this movie came out when. All right. So if I'm eighty seven movie came out when I was in my mid forties whatever the point is at the time this move came out. I thought it was like I thought it was about three women kind of like a hocus pocus thing or practical magic another movie I've never seen but he was I thought it was about women who are already like you know which he and had their their coven and they deliberately conjured Jack Nicholson and I was like I'm not here for that story. And so I never watched it. So when I watched it for the first time this weekend, I was like Holy Shit I can't believe this is just now getting into my life because for one thing like you need I was reacquainted with how amazing share is load from high close to her Her attitude. I- This could have been as share two hour movie and I would have demanded more episodes. I Send Ebony. So many tax about how I was in love with share. was watching this late I was like, yeah I just I don't know like. I've never. I've never had a problem with share. I enjoyed her in the performances that I've seen her in I love her as a cultural icon but I don't have a particular affinity and I was like I would like to go watch every share movie and everything shares ever done after watching this like she is such a fascinating She is so Visually fascinating. Human right like you. I imagine that being around her is this sort of charismatic draw that you have because she's not like she's not this amazingly stunningly traditionally beautiful woman but she so captivating and fascinating and like appealing right Oh. Yeah. I mean she's got like that Angelica Houston thing where you're like. Okay you know you may not have the sort of like. Soft rounded traditionally like Western coded you ideal female beauty. But you are in fact stunning and gorgeous and I WANNA keep looking interface plus Komo and share can sing and she's a good actor come on. Give it up I. got us at Caroline did you see this movie before? No? I I'm seeing it as well. Okay. So we've all seen it for the first time like this weekend I gotta be. Honest I don't know how to talk about this movie. It really was like I and even up to like just right before we record it. I was like I. Don't know what what happened. What is this movie? I don't understand it. So? Bad Shit. It is. It it is bad shit. Any there are things in this film. That are so right on you know like there are some some. Extended kind of winking monologues that Jack Nicholson goes on about how men are trash and I was like Yep Yep you're right. Got It. But then like ultimately the way the movie ends was so disappointing to me that I had to like you know do some research online about it. I read some reviews from the period in some recent kind of. Reminiscences of the movie and whatever. But also read about the original novel upon which it's based in Nineteen eighty-four. You mentioned Anita it was written by John. Updike and apparently the book which I have not read apparently the book is much darker in tone. And also, it certainly didn't end like three minutes baby style with. All get knocked up with their different hair-color kids and living happily ever after in the mansion of this devil exercise like it was just. So totally off for me, that's it ended in this very like literally pastelle nursery. After the kind of like just fun. campy. You know just over the top kind of energy we've gotten from these women who dislike limit allowed with each other and really come on like essentially just an excuse for them to be together more closely right? That's that's my take on it. Yeah I have a lot of complex feelings about this film but I don to me what part of what's interesting about this film Darryl Van Horne that the devil essentially in the guise of Jack Nicholson who you know here delivers one of those just. I mean delicious. In I. Think deliciously, like scenery chewing performance, right the likes the likes of which only a few actors like himself and Al. Pacino are even capable of delivering and where you kind of want every once in a while to come along that gives them an excuse to just like cut loose and be like as absurdly big as possible. So I, relished that Jack Nicholson performance in this film but. I think it's interesting like He. How does he seduced the women? You know? Well, it's largely by admitting to them right that that they get that women get a raw deal under patriarchy right? At least that seems to be a big part of it is like the language that he uses is like, yes men are men take advantage of human exploited. You don't get a fair shake, etc.. And you know and for the women like there's something like refreshing about that it's it's it works on them in the context of the film and. Ultimately I guess what's interesting is, of course like as we as we said in the introduction, it's and he just had like like, yes ultimately, of course, Darrell very clearly reveals himself to be very much just pure raw male entitlement just another entitled jerk but so there's the dichotomy in the film right of like the repressive Christian church and just Christian. Mentality in this small New England town that's tied up with. America American flags and everything and it's you know this was nine, hundred, eighty, seven it was Reagan's America and. I mean, I don't know you just kind of obviously it persists today God and country this white you know one might one off Sometimes bleeding into white supremacist. Ideas of like anyway you know Christian. America but so you have that on one side and then on the other side, the devil right who who offers, what seems to be this liberation but that ultimately proves to be just another oppressive trap. So what then is available to the women and I mean. Like do they in ultimately the end, find a way of making a life for themselves. That exists outside and beyond the bounds of the Church on one side and Darryl on the other or do they remain trapped in that Kata me in some way you know I mean, I'm not really sure but I think I. I think there's something interesting going on there with that like that that opposition between those two forces in that in the town, and in this film I'm so glad you brought up the church. Church in this sort of like, you know rabid. Puritanical moralizing is embodied. So wonderfully, this phone by Veronica. Cartwright who? Dollar for dollar does hysteria like no one else Yes. Yes. So excuse me from the beginning again. Watching this film and I was like, wow, this is not at all but I thought it was going to be a because the film opens on this very like you know. Pick, dress town small new England town, and we know what we're in for at least we suspect we know what we're in for There's something. So endlessly appealing to us about the specter of a particular kind of horror usually embodied in the form of like out of control femininity in these like quintessentially American spaces that have very strong connections to like this colonial idea of America right so this is why these are often set in New England and so we can talk about the dangerous from within from you know. Like this femininity gone wild. And then the problems from like invaders from without who are bringing like big city problems or urban problems to these these like enclosed enclaves of whiteness of middle class living etc, and so that's what I expected. But from the very beginning. We have Susan Serandon Michelle Pfeiffer, and share I'm blanking just like Alex Sukey Jane Right Okay So. Jane. In bikes into the audience you know allow to. Feel such impatience with the fantasy of America. That's on offer in that town. So the dude who I think it's A Susan Sarandon's character boss. Has Been hitting on her you know and who is delivering this speech before the town like the women are like visibly impatient and just fed up with this guy and it's their mutual wishing for something to happen to him for his bloviating to end the Kinda. Catalyze is the recognition of their power. You know I was like, Oh yeah like this film is not going to be about. How we can return to a sense of normalcy normal being know Christian middle class but instead it's going to be laying bare just how insufficient that is for happiness for so many people I was so excited and again that's why I was so upset at the end because ultimately the woman at the end of this film would fit right in place with the version of America they seem to be rejecting at the beginning but in the Middle Susan. Sarandon's like when she's going to the grocery store with no bra and she's got that great eighties perm she's just living live I was like thin. Hair I did. I don't want Jack Nicholson to be part of this, and anyway he is actively grossing me out which he is somewhat supposed to do but also I'm supposed to find him a bit charming like. When share says like you are physically repulsive, I'm repelled by you were supposed to. The power of his charm overcome, but I never felt Like I just couldn't quit like. Jack Nicholson on you weren't. You weren't taken by him laying in his robe on his his bed, right? Well, let me thing is there are there are There are actors who Probably. Would have bought into. You know the seduction there but I mean ultimately like what he's saying to them is not Berle changing these are things that they already know about themselves and perhaps haven't accepted to the extent that they need to. But he's not like blowing their minds with these cosmic truths or anything. You know he just sort of giving them permission to live out loud a little bit So yeah, there's also that problem these amazing women need a dude turn the key. Yeah for them to be fully switched on also. There's something. I. I literally don't know how to talk about this movie. I'm so confused the hell out of me in so many ways. So like there's something about the like you're saying ebony like he, he turns this key right like he liberates them from the the Banal The banality of their lives and the expectations of their lives and the expectations that were not fulfilled right that they did the married marriage babies thing and it didn't work for them right or that they're like control freaks and like liberating them from their control so that they can have true passionate right? Like there is something there is something kind of delightful in decadent about their like mass sex group family that they've created right and. Like you're saying, it's also gross that it's like he has to be in the center of that but then there's also something liberating about them realizing that he is just as horrible as every like every other man and he is a controlling and entitled and. The Devil. He's vicious. Unless facially vicious. So so like I I also felt weird about the end and that's not just because of the CGI nightmare. That, I would like to. But also like there, there is a sense of like they do take back the power, right like they literally leave the tools like they learn his tools and so they in witchcraft and they take him down and they and they take over and they create the life that like they want. So quote unquote but again, it's complicated by the fact that both of you have brought up. That like it ends with them being like, cool. We're going to have his baby and like maybe he'll be involved but I don't really know. But at the same time, it's like three women raising their kids together in this giant mansion is super unconventional and again like the norm. So there is something kind of empowering about the way that it ends like it is on their terms. which I think is kind of fun and like a good a good value proposition to share I guess it's just. Everything about this movie is so confusing to me like. I think where I get hung up is like Olive Daryl's lectures. Right like those moments were the moments that I was like okay wait. So I get theoretically but he is saying what each of them wants to hear, and then they're validated by that and then they decide to have a foursome and like have this happy quad family thing. But like the content of what he was saying like felt really weird to me and I think some of it is like the time period like the gender roles and La Oh. Jesus. Yeah. I was having such a hard time trying to both like recognize that he is trying he is expressing the innermost feelings of these women to them and the audience while. Like very much in. remaining within the traps in constraints of what they're fighting against yes a he uses language this very gender essential list. It's very men are like this women are like this women are nurturing says I love to be a woman in Seducing Sukey shall pfeiffer character like I'd love to be a woman. You know because of the things your body's can do give birth and then you can produce milk to feed the babies. And it's all. So I like I consciously as I was watching the film I was like, okay. I'm I'M GONNA like. Acknowledge that this is you know it is very generous centralist in it's very much as you say, like sort of the period and try to like. Extrapolate out like like, okay. What are the ways in which he's talking about patriarchy? and not just. Like reinforcing like. Limiting ideas about gender by saying men are like this women are like this but but you know, so I'm like, okay, I'm going to focus on the parts where he talks about how the system. Is Unfair to women in like how women are mistreated and how men take advantage of women and all of that because you know like I, it's one of those I'm like. Well, if they were making this film today who probably and they wanted it to be using the language, they want Daryl to be. A you know using the language that women today might find most want to hear from a man it would be it would be I think would be quite different but I think they're like the seed decor there's something still in the core of what he's doing that is appealing even if it's couched in this really unfortunate sort of limiting. Limiting ideas about gender I can't help but think about like I should have done this research before we start talking because I was like what other movies came out around this time right like in like year before a year after year of because like these are very big names that agreed to be in this movie right like they were they were big names at the time right? It's not like Oh yeah. Like their first films or anything like that. This is a really big. Probably had a pretty big release. I don't remember I was a child. And like there's something about it that feels like really like they all agreed to do this movie like this was financed in nineteen, eighty seven. That was a thing. But also like I do think that there were a lot more like button pushing films that happened in the eighties at like late seventies in the eighties, right? Right. We already talked about nine to five, and so it's not that weird that this would exist but it does feel. Like it's like it feels like it's pushing boundaries even though to us today we're like. Yeah. I recently on on the criterion channel, I watched a film called Klute which stars James Good also ninety five and is there is this you know paranoia thriller about a Jane Fonda? Plays. What. The film I think described using the parlance of the day like a high class call girl or whatever you know But she's you know she's a sex worker. And I mean while watching that film which was in the Some definitely somewhere in the seventies but I forget exactly when it occurred to me like. You know. There's a real appetite and an interest at that time in films that explored in a real way. Even if the ultimately the conclusions they arrived at were like reassuring to the status quo you know there's a period in this film where what it's doing is trying to explore. A gender roles and gender power dynamics and those kinds of things and I feel like you know I mean. I think probably what drew I mean? Obviously, this is pure speculation but what drew I might imagine. This. Great. These Great Women Susan Serandon Share Michele Pfeifer to this film is it. It's a film that you know it has something on its mind, but it's at least trying to like stir up these ideas around. Gender and women's roles and like sexual power dynamics and things like that. I don't know I think that there's something really appealing about that and I think that I I mean I don't know I. A lot of conventional Hollywood cinema like doesn't really do that, and so I don't know I. Think there's something refreshing about it when when a film comes along his actually like exploring that territory in some sort of real way. Yeah absolutely. I was thinking as I was watching this movie you mentioned nine to five Anita that. That would be an excellent found. This would be an excellent header nine to five in the witches of Eastwick I mean not just because you've got. The. It's centers around like these three different but women who've developed like incredibly intimate relationships with each other and in fact, find solace and friendship and power through that but give us. Yeah. You know I think there's there's something that's being wrestled with in the eighties both. Within women, but also in society at large. Really wondering. How To? How sort situate itself with? Increased access increased employment for women you know. All of the expanding rights that women were in some women were enjoying. With The eight like the conservatism of the eighties which had just like really fanatical insistence and a lot of ways on like forms of masculinity that that could not be you know trespassed upon I think like there are films that speak to each other that way and I think you know it'd be really interesting to think about it and I think also like nine to five you know Olsen. Is, much more progressive in its in its time consistent messaging than the witches of Eastwick even though the witches of Eastwick has. Like kind of. transgressive allure that I think you know always happens when we have thumbs that feature like the supernatural Nicole just simply because like you can have more fun playing around with. Okay. Well, what happens if you know someone who has been oppressed and down beaten, all of their lives suddenly has access to. Incredible amounts of power not just like they can go out and get any job they want or. They're making more one or whatever but they can literally like rain down a hail of frogs or choke someone with Cherry pits or whatever. But I think like you know it's really interesting to consider as you say like what else is coming out around this period and why? And why these actors like I love this cast but yeah, it's very interesting cast to have to have put together. I just piece together in my brain a little bit more about the devil role in this, and it's like he is straight up a pickup artist. To a T. right like the language of pause and like men's rights activists right where he says everything that they want to hear to get them into bed when they revolt, he goes on a huge misogynist screed rate because I I was just thinking about like that. It was it was so jarring right? Like it was it made sense I guess to the character whatever but then you have him. In the the the church yelling what was thinking when he created women were they just mistake like earthquakes and floods or were they made on purpose you know like going on and on and on about all of that and it's like like like Carolyn, his performance was delightful like it was uncomfortable and I and I recognize it in. It's uncomfortable in this it was just like the sheer physical freedom. To just be Zany right and yeah. But it was so uncomfortable listening to that and also having that be the devil in a church like in a place of like a white church right of like really regressive conservative like button up where like these attitudes and beliefs probably exist like. A More quietly. RUMAS attitudes can exist. So there's just a lot of tension. was intentional and some wasn't intentional. Yeah and I think it's worthwhile noting that the most in fact, all of the pushback that women receive in the town comes from other women, right? So FELISA. Who goes around the bend and then the women in the Grocery Store Call Sukey a slut, and then just like you know kind of. Allied against her and her freedom it's very interesting. The ways in which you know women are kind of the the shield Vaden's for patriarchy. And how they get deployed right there I mean Richard Jenkins who's also always great. You know it's just this kind of like bumbling confused figure he has. He has no idea what to do in the face of this new behavior you know. Women. Actually. Felicia interesting because like really. So for context FELICIA. Get like basically has a type of possession of some sort. It's not super clear where she realizes that there is evil in the world and she becomes kind of like a maniac. Mitt. Manana. May. But I. Think you like in her in her spreading of like, Oh my God you don't know what's coming. There's evil in town right? Which is true. What she is sensing or whatever is happening to her is true but she's also talking about the evil that's brewing inside of her while acknowledging the evil that's come to town and like, and then what she gets killed like I just I don't really understand narrative what her character represents or really like what her character was supposed to do in terms of moving the story in some way. Yes. It's a it's a weird one So just real quick going back to the John. Updike. Novel. From which the film is based. The character of Felicia and her husband also exists in the novel. The. Her husband, the character play by Richard Jenkins. You know falls under the like witchy spell of the women. In his house seduced by them or the appeal of them and winds up killing his wife and then killing himself and the book. Also spoiler alert whatever you know for this forty year old novel. But. There in the Book Darryl Van Horne engages in this lake. Malaysia cat with the women but then abruptly Mary's this like very you know virginal sweet young woman in the town, not one of the trio but someone else entirely and in their crazed, you know jealousy the witches then put a spell on that young woman name is Jenny and calls her to die of cancer. God Yeah and then. then. At the end of the book again, the don't become pregnant and bear little devil babies. At the end of the Book Daryl leaves the town with the brother. Of the woman he married Genie's brother Christopher. Who is understood to be his lover? That's the end of the book home my God. Yeah, and so I'm just like okay. So someone read this book in Nineteen eighty-four. Like, this needs to be onscreen. Jack Nicholson absolutely has got to be our devil inauguration. What was the thing with the kids like the babies all with their multicolored hair rolling up to the screen and then Darryl talking to them, and then the which is turning the TV off and like you came that came right after them talking about how they missed him but they needed to not think about that while they were together because. They don't WanNa. Be. Beatles UC kind of moment for me and I was just like, no, this is not the film that I wanted I mean granted the film that I've wanted ending I wanted it would have been at those women except for Sukey who we wanted a child but. The other two being like, yeah I didn't ask for this baby I don't want this baby I am going to exercise my right to have an abortion I'm not going to bear the Devil's child. It was Jane it was Jane that one of the child's James the one night gets pregnant too much. Housing babies following around. That that Michelle pfeiffer 's character who is the mother of five six children. You know when he's Evan, yet is explicitly stated to be the most powerful of the witches presumably because she is so incredibly fertile and feek and the like. Every time this movie gives you something to be like Okay Yeah I love this it pulls something back in. It's like who's same bullshit just very old school like origins of misogyny around like women are nature right like yeah. Whatever there's this really great book called Misogyny the History Misogyny by Jack Holland I think and it talks about this about how like women are nature and like. So you're either demonized for it and need to be tamed or like you because you birthed children, you therefore are you no one needs to you are precious right in need to be protected and put on a pedestal and all of that. So it's definitely polling those routes into what you were talking about with the book like pulling those routes into The way that it's thinking about the roles of women and the roles of witches even right. Now I WANNA. Talk just a little bit more about the setting of this film to the beautiful you know. While set in Rhode Island it wasn't filmed in Rhode Island but you know this beautiful like. Town and where like I mean seeing it. It don't opens with this beautiful shot of the town below you've got church in these little winding roads and lots of green and trees. Bodies of water and everything and and throughout. You know it's so picturesque right so many like little house houses on the water and just just gorgeous. Gorgeous. Town and I mean there's something to me that on one hand is so appealing about it as just visually of like Oh, my God what a how much I would love to live in a small town like that. You know it's it's just so beautiful. But then of course, the obvious. Awareness or the inescapable awareness of. Who I mean given the religious conservative ideology that seems to dominate the town. You know and certainly like the whiteness of it I don't think there's a single. person in this entire film like literally at least you know very few if any like but you know for me as a trans person like that's just that is just not a world for me like that is not a world that I can like. Without my very presence in it disrupting everything and you know so that you know that complexity of like Oh it's so beautiful I'd love to live there or live in a place like that. Yet being aware that like what maintains that that like? Kind of whatever you WANNA call it kind of. You know or that sense of. Order undisturbed order. For the people who live there to some is to some degree, the absence of able like me, right? Yeah Anyway I just found that found fascinating. This. So I really. I can't recommend enough that people check it out if you haven't seen it because it is not. It is weird. It is. It is much weirder than I expected it to be, and again, you can pair with some. Other amazing films and just have a night of it if you want just to have. Like Jack Nicholson. Scenery Chewing Bonanza. You could go directly from the shining to this to Batman and just have yourself a real good time. That sounds exhausting to me. Until exhausting or see if that's exactly what you want, you're going to get a lot of I I don't know if I recommend watching this movie but if I would, it's because the share Michelle Pfeiffer and Susan Sarandon a unit I like really enjoyed them together and they're acting and I also loved like I. Loved the Visual Transformations in the fashion and the hair like the I just loved the aesthetics of like it was very deeply eighties and I enjoyed that a lot. I like the fact that they had. pitchers of Marguerite, and Margaritas Martinis every Thursday and cheese was on crackers. Fun Group Gal like the female friendship feeling toward the beginning of the film of their hang outs like there was definitely something really appealing to me about that and your. Love to have you know a few like your girlfriend, your sex in the city group except not racist transphobic and Shitty. Actually. Watched all of sex in the city. So I've got some the series. Anita I know I have a lot of dots things, I I've I've a history with the show and also re watching it is like don't don't do it. If anyone felt the need to I did it for you. All right. I'll cross that off. Okay. A all are we done with this conversation? I'll never be done with this movie but yeah, we're done with this conversation. Okay, we'll be right back to share some freak outs. Today, you can head over to patriots, dot com slash FEM freak and become one of our patrons. That's right. If you back this podcast not only are you helping us on the air and keep feminist critical media criticism alive but you also get fund perks lake early access to podcast episodes, Berry special bonus episodes, merch discounts what else you got We even let our patrons help us decide on new episodes and upcoming topics. So go ahead and check that out patriots dot com slash FEM break. Now, it's time to talk about with thrilling s moving as of setting s or infuriating this past week ebony year up. Okay so I didn't plan this, but I happen to watch the nexium documentary not the vow. Famous one that people know about? Net flicks I believe but instead seduced Adriaan. HBO Israel Max Okay Yeah. So I watched two episodes of seduce. I should note seduced is four episodes to the to the vows I believe eight or ten episodes, which is why I felt like okay I can do this. On starts by different filmmaking team. If, you're someone who has into the competing fire festival documentaries and check out both of these but. The reason why I watch it is because I read a very interesting article I. Believe the Ramos, Ashley Harris comparing the two and noting that seduced is very much the better documentary for a whole host of reasons. But one of the primary ones being that it doesn't at all you know. sugarcoat or hand wave away any of the culpability of some of the people who are involved in the vow including folks like Martha say who was very high up in the next game organization but some of his like bad axe and. Coddling of and endorsement of some of the more heinous. is of Keith Rene the head of Nexium Call? Are left out of the vow and they're given you know full discussion in in seduced. But so what was interesting to me and the reason why it's my out this week is that it just so happened that we're discussing which is of eastern Mc this week and the parallels between some. Chist. Towed WHO's convinced of his own, fuck ingenious. Trying to like. Just groom women. For his own nefarious ends couldn't have been more clear. So Keith Rene who was this guy who has exaggerated and blown up his own. His own distinction qualifications? Says that he's you know one of the smartest men in the world's got multiple graduate degrees in various branches of science you know. It's just this incredibly influential for the guy is a hack He's an idiot, and also he has just cobbled together the worst parts of various philosophies and you know new age teachings. For nexium this cult which you know like scientology is meant to put you in touch with. Your inner greatness and genius and pull you away from suppressive like literally using terms scientology like suppressive. Personalities, I, e anyone who dares to criticise the bullshit teachings of the cult leaders. But yeah, it was just so interesting watching this documentary. Because you're watching. Footage like actual footage of Keith, Ranieri and his top female lieutenants. spout the most misogynistic claptrap. But the people in the audience are soaking it up as if it is. Wisdom from. Heaven. Because there's this There's this like cloak of legitimacy upon it based upon the fact that everyone in the room is like you know it's primarily like white an upper-class. Whereas if this were a group of people who were more economically disenfranchised if there was more brown people in the room. The cult would not have been allowed to proceed as long as it did in the way that it certainly wouldn't have the reach and the money that it did. But it's just it's. It's so baldly obvious when you're watching it from the outside, what someone like Ethan area is doing, but for the women who are involved in it, they really felt as if he had allowed them to tap into something true and real and authentic about who they were as women something they had never heard before. But the slightest moments review reveals that he's just recycling the same old misogynistic patriarchal bullshit says men are like this women are like this men are logical and detached whereas women are nurturers and carers and men are not meant to be monogamous and so you know. Trying to curtail a man, a male partners activities is only going to end heartbreak but if you're upset about it, it's because you're choosing to be a victim. It's horrifying and this is before we even get into the extremely gross and criminal way. He blurs the lines between consent you know an abuse where he talks about rape. These horrifying ways in which people are victimized and traumatized over and over again. But the fact that this dude. Who is you know ostensibly, bringing women to this greater awareness of self couldn't have been more timely as I was finishing watching the witches of Eastwick it was startling and horrifying. So anyways, it's on stars. It's called seduced encourage you to check it out but I would like to ask you Anita how you felt watching the vow, which is the other nexium documentary. Yeah. I like okay I really WanNa Watch seduce now. I did not watch the fire documentaries. So I either of them but this. So I found the vow really fascinating but but inconsistent in its in its filmmaking in that like it did not need to be as long as it was or some episodes that you're like this is dumb or or useless, but the the vow takes. Like th. So the material from the vow is really rooted around to people who were high up in the organization or Well four but really to right we're in the organization and then the mother of of someone who was trying to get her daughter out and so they have loads and Loja follow Follow footage of those people and there's loads of footage because mark whatever his name is came into nexium and started filming everything right and taught people out of film stuff. So curious because seduced I just looked up on wikipedia is centering around in Oxen, Berg with is the vow doesn't have any material with her like interviews. Interesting. She is you only see her in the vow to previous footage that probably came from mark I'm guessing. And the end of the end of the vow the I think it's nine episodes ends with like Rainier got arrested. And then it says, stay tuned for season two and I'm like how the fuck are you gonNa make a whole nother season when? His trial cannot be more than a episode come on but whatever. So what Isis why I'm so interested in seduced is because. Hearing India. Talk about like being inside the like apex of the sex cult part of this being like right beside heath the whole time like we don't see any of that in the vow and clearly she got out and have some feelings role she wouldn't have agreed to be in. So like I think that could be it's just a totally different perspective. It's like it's it's. An. Insider versus outsider perspective in some ways because the people in the vow had already left by the time then you're getting a lot of a lot of what's what's going down with the accusations in it all coming forward and all that. So so yeah, like and I'm fascinated by the story in general just because like I it's disturbing and strange and like cults like. Like what you were talking about Ebony is that like there is a weird appeal that some people have to You know they are at at a vulnerable places in their lives and they hear certain things that make them feel better and. You know if you create a family and you create this, you know it's like it's exactly what we were just talking about with like we we would love to have a group of like you know the three or four friends that get together once a week for Margarita's right like this is that version of like plus. You have a community you have. Mental health like your life is better because of it but really it's it's one you listen to the shit that keep says it's really dumb and basic. So so ridiculous and yet people are hanging on his every word as if. He's some supercomputer. It's mind boggling you know and I'm trying to have empathy for people and I do have empathy for the I mean these people were taking. Some of them are in horrific debt from the amount of you know. Classes, they had to pay for people who are sexually assaulted abused raped exploited like I definitely have empathy for them, but it is hard to watch sometimes from the outside because you're like, how did this not ring any alarm bells for you? As you say like one of the things that is so appealing is not the teaching but the community of fellow believers like India talks about this that she was nineteen when she got involved and. I, left college. I was looking for a way to kind of distinguish myself from my mother who was this famous actor I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. I didn't feel very confident about speaking to people I wasn't very outgoing and yet here was a community and you know it became so important to me so. As important as like you know, the ten commandments of Keith. Ranieri. Was the fact that like here, all these women that I'm surrounded by an we're. Struggling, and learning, and loving and living together. You know that's equally as important to them. and. So like when you pull when you attempt to pull them out of a situation like this, you can't just trying to rationalize or show them like the irrationality of the teaching you have to address this other need that brought them that made them susceptible to be exploited in the first place Italy the vow has a lot alike. Not, believe how much footage they have and recordings like everything was recorded, and so when you're talking about like the ways that any dissent was dismissed, there is literally conversations recorded that show that when you bring something up to Keith that's like, Hey, this might be a little bit weird or I'm not feeling great about it how he spins it to be about you and how you have. To work the program and you know like it's this is your problem that you're thinking these things not my problem and like because they've already been indoctrinated and the language that he's created around these beliefs like they buy into it, and so also we only know from the outside in the vow about like the ways that they did like food deprivation and sleep deprivation like like literal. Torture tactics were were. Used against the women like in in the you know the secret women's group or whatever and so I'm I'm like now like I really WanNa. Watch this because I wanNA know like from India's perspective what she went through. In the vowed, they talk about the sap, the society protectors. Yes, and they have that's the part that really blew lid not only do they have footage of like their big meeting and Rene. Lecturing his bullshit and spouted out on and on and on and on, but they also have. So there was a crossover that happened between the Society of protectors and the Women's group yet secret women's group at the like not-so-secret Women's group your genetics. Genetics? Yes where they would. Like it they like a beat down the women like like like and there was all of the you watched it like there's the whole session like I'm talking days of like trainings were recorded where they just like made fun of poked at the women and some of the men were like this doesn't really feel good to do but I guess we're supposed to do it because that's what they say we should do you know like instinctually, some of them were like this isn't right. This is not how things but the Keith talks about how men have been pushed aside and women have gotten everything they've wanted and all of the shit, and so it's now it's time for men to get that and for women to feel that way and you're like what the fuck are you talking about did Exactly exactly like it blew, I saw I didn't know very much about this call before watching this documentary like I knew the broad strokes from from hearing about it being the news but essentially. So next team is kind of the the parent philosophy and within it there are several groups. This is the listeners who have not seen. His memories aren't planning to watch it whatever I trust your choices but so there's a male only group called Sap Society of protectors, which is literally about radicalizing men. In this like sort of like hyper militant. Aggressively hyper masculine way you know were they like they punch each other and they force each other to endure pain? An effort to be ready like a standing army. Advance the ideals of the organization and to protect presumably Keith and you know the other people in power. It's scary and then they have the women's group, which is genus and you know Anita pointed out like there's this they came together and I think it was called genetics tracks. Were they they brought the two groups together and the thing that was blow. My mind is that they you had to pay fifty dollars a month. To be part of it was like readiness drills or readiness camp, and what would happen is once a week. Someone in the group text, the the Group of people and say ready. And you had to respond ready within one minute or you were penalized. That was a part of the secret group. Wasn't it? I don't I. Don't think they'll serve dos a dos had its own stuff but like it was, it was blow my mind because you know the things that punishment went like. They could text you at any time. So you're having to live in the state of hyper vigilance. You know where you can never truly relax. You can never like go to sleep because if you go to sleep and you don't hear your phone, go off at three in the morning and text ready within sixty seconds, you might have to then stand in a cold shower for. Five minutes you might have to go without food for a day and a half you might have to you know whatever it was I think about my guy amount of literal like and I don't WanNa say brainwashing. But like the amount of beating down of a person's self esteem right preying on all of their vulnerabilities pretending that this is to the benefit of them that they would pay to participate in the abuse like that's what gets me here that I just like it's. It is so predatory it is like the fucking definition of predatory right and I feel so much for all the people that got caught up in this shit, and then also was like what? No actually I think. I have more sympathy than everybody does because I'm just like I kinda got look I worked in self help for a tiny bit and I see what people are willing to put money to and it's it's sad right like it's like these people are screwing with you. They are not real. They don't know what they're doing. They're making shit up and you're paying for it because you're so desperate because the world is so bad right our society and capitalism and all of the different sites of oppression Compound to make you feel terrible about yourself about everyone else about the state of the world and so folks come in. They're like, here's the answer and you're like yes. please. What do I need to? Because you want like you want to take the one pill that's GonNa. Make you feel better you want to take the one piece of advice. If you do this one thing everything will be better now do these things and give us fifty thousand dollars you know. It is it's fascinating. God Oh I just want to say something about race if I can. Go ahead. So how it is all fucking white people right and like obviously it's clear that nexium is mostly white people except for there is a huge Mexican population. Right what I the the one thing I wanted to mention though is that there is one interview in the vow that is an anonymous interview with a woman that joined DOS, which is the secret sauce cult, and the way that dos works is that you are a slave to your master and it is it is that same kind of like texting behavior that Ebony just described except times million and you have to get branded and all of this stuff. that woman who I believe is a white woman was brought into dos by a black woman. And There's no interview with a black woman. So this is all based on her her storytelling and said, well, if she said if she if a black woman thinks that it's okay that it's like the slave master thing I guess it's fine. Okay I need to freak out about this fruit -servative lease seven hours but I just want to say real quick seduced by no means perfect documentary. Okay. Like I said, I've only seen the first two episodes I. Don't think the last two are out yet The first one is a little bit slow going. You know what kind of shows it seems a bit but the the one thing, the one major critique I would say of it is that so far anyway, whenever the experts the experts on cults In these kind of organisations talk about how these groups indoctrinate people and how they construct a notion of like the interior exterior group in danger from without in Alabama they they talk about terrorist organizations and they are always. Like. Terrorist groups from like the Arab world you know or from foreign sources. Right and I'm like you know what would have been interesting is if we had talked about how this indoctrination happens in the US military. Enforcement in churches like when you're showing like these scenes of people marching in lockstep or behaving. In these identical ways and deliberately patterning themselves on each other, you know in obedience to an authority figure. Less impact shit at home first before looking to like Isis. Child soldiers. As an example, but anyway, check out seduced saw was freak out but. Now I mean, I. I don't know if anyone enjoyed US talking about but I enjoyed talking to. That's what we're doing here. So all right, y'all. If you want to submit your on freak out, you can do that at Feminazi dot com slash freak out. That's F. R.. E. Q. UT Thank you so much for listening to feminist frequency radio. Stay tuned for the frequent after party, which is only available to backers of this podcast. You can learn more at teach dot com slash them freak. The show is engineered by Route Para Curious Tim provides sport artwork by Jamie, Faran, and our intro music is by Phil Circus. Thanks for listening by later.

Jack Nicholson Anita Eastwick Michelle Pfeiffer Darryl Van Horne Keith Rene Jack Nicholson Caroline Pettit Susan Sarandon Olive Daryl Jane Fonda Alex Sukey Jane America Rhode Island Wikipedia Updike India John Susan Serandon New England
S11: Infamous: NXIVM Pt. 3

Parcast Presents

41:13 min | 6 months ago

S11: Infamous: NXIVM Pt. 3

"Due to the graphic nature of this cult crimes. Listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of sexual abuse and child abuse that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. In Two Thousand Sixteen Nicole lay naked on a table. She was blindfolded and bound at the ankles and wrists. And she shivered from the cold. Nicole. Probably wondered how she got there. She just wanted to be a successful actress. That's why she trusted Allison Mack months earlier thirty four year, old ALLYSON had invited to call to join a women's empowerment group thrilled better. Not Be veteran would take an interest in her Nicole accepted. Then came the demands. I Allison told Nicole to call her master. Then she insisted that Nicole remained celebrate for three months, but it was allison's final request that led to Nicole, lying naked blindfolded and bound with only fifty six year old key through a neary at her side. All Nicole was immobilized. Someone began performing oral sex on her at first. She assumed it was Keith. But then he started talking to her even as the act continued. That's when Cole realized with horror that she didn't know who was going down on her and bound. She was there was nothing she could do to stop them. After the oral sex she hadn't consented to Nicole returned to. Show talk however when she told the actress what had transpired with, Keith. Ellison didn't seem surprised instead. She told Nicole that she was brave and she had earned the privilege of working more with Keith. Hi. I'm Greg Paulson and I'm Vanessa. Richardson. Then this is colts apar-. CAST original. Every Tuesday. We look at cults practices, their leader and their followers. You can find all episodes of cults and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Just dream cults for free on spotify, just open the APP and type cults in the search bar. This marks the second week of our deep dive into nexium. The group made headlines for physically branding celebrity. Celebrity late and membership, and coercing them into being sex slaves all to satisfy its narcissistic leader Keith remarry in this episode will explore Keith's relationship with actress. Allison, mack then will detail the role alison played in his predatory sorority. Finally will cover some of the horrifying practices Keith inflicted upon Dos. Members in Thursday's final episode will delve into the unmasking of dos for what it really was. A sex ring will follow Keith's desperate flight to Mexico and his eventual capture and downfall. We've got all this and more coming up. Stay with us. In two, thousand, six, forty, six year, old Keith Ranieri was a man completely in charge of his kingdom. He built nexium up from nothing, and though the corporate clients initially coveted had rejected him keith more than made up for it by securing billionaire heiresses, Clarence Sara, Bronfman as members. However, the shiny is and Keith's crown was his newest recruit. Allison. Mack. Five years earlier in two, thousand, one, nine, thousand, nine, year, old allison, mack was cast to play Super Man's best friend in the hit teen soap smallville in addition to being a superheroes. POW She worked for the SMALLVILLE newspaper as a result, her main driving impulse was the search for truth liker character. Elson to was motivated by a search for Truth and purpose in an interview with journalists. Coronel. A friend described her as someone who was constantly searching for something that. That was missing at her life in two, thousand, six, perhaps twenty, four year, old allyson believed. She would find that missing thing in nexium. Maybe that's why she climbed into the Bronfman's private jet and flew to Albany New York to meet the vanguard key through neary Ellison's initial meeting with the smartest man, the world must have been successful because according to journalists, Rebecca son in. Scott. Johnson. She was still in Albany surrounded by vanguards inner circle a few weeks later. Allison, wasn't the only actress drawn in by nexium fellow smallville Co Star Kristin cruch. WHO, why? Five? Oh. Actress Grace Park and Battle Star GALACTICA actress. Nikki Klein were all reported members. Actresses might have flocked nexium because of Keith's claimed that he could coach anyone to do anything, even win an academy award. However, there may have been another reason they felt drawn to the group research suggests that artists. Susceptible to charismatic cults. Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here throughout the episode. Please note Vanessa is not licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for the show. Thanks. Greg. In, an interview with journalist Scott Johnson and Rebecca Son Jodie wild a documentary film director and cults expert stated that Hollywood is filled with vulnerable artists, many of whom are lost or damaged. You get a Predator in the mix whether it's Harvey Weinstein or the leader of nexium they're going to go for it. Those leaders might offer other forms of support that they can't get from their agent or manager Alison like all actresses was subject to the many rejections that are part of every acting career. So a desire for a more stable form of acceptance and support might explain why she was. So tied to the group, did might also explain why her attachment sustained even in the face of some of next seems more regressive teachings more specifically, the beliefs Keith espoused in his intensive seminar called Janice. Genus posed as a female empowerment class, but it's subject. Matter was almost comically misogynistic during genetics. Intensive 's Keith taught female next. Sean's that women were naturally more submissive and prone to monogamous relationships while men were dominant and genetically predisposed to poly-amorous. According to journalist Ej, Dixon Keith also preached that men inherently had more character in fortitude and women were more prone to flightiness and game-playing the women who signed up for genetics were searching for self empowerment, therefore exposing their current lack of power and self esteem their insecurity made them easy marks for Keith's misogynistic indoctrination and allison mack was no different in a two, thousand, seven blog. The actress wrote I. Have a tendency to say, I'm stupid. I have become very comfortable. Talking things up to the fact that I don't have a proper education. These negative personal feelings go some way towards explaining why Alison didn't immediately recoil from suggestions. Suggestions that women were flighty creatures lacking in character and fortitude. In essence geneticists. Philosophy was just reinforcing her own low opinion about herself. However, nexium wasn't all misogynistic seminars about the sexes. Ellison might have also been drawn to the cult for young creative community and its many recreational events by two thousand, six Barbara, Bouchet one of Keith's girlfriends head already created vanguard week or V. Week though she'd invented be week to be a business conference to promote Nexium, it turned into a ten day celebration of Keith's birth during the week, next scenes from all over the United States Europe, Canada and Mexico descended on the compound in Clifton Park. Filmmaker Mark B sent a former next-gen, likened the proceedings to a summer camp for adults where you had all these things you could choose from that. You wanted to do drumming dancing singing, even poetry. All of it was done as a tribute to Keith, recognizing him as the creator of a philosophical movement. The veneration of Keith wasn't restricted to V. Week, either it featured in every single facet of Naxi in life especially amongst the groups female members. In an interview with ABC's twenty, twenty Mark B sent taste stated that when Keith played volleyball at the compound, which he did almost daily rows of women would wait for him on the sidelines and then the minute there was a break between plays. They would rush him like he was a Rockstar all of them eager to ask him their deep pressing questions. Their education was why Keith despite claiming to be Selah was able to continue sexual relationships with several of his female students according to an F. B. I. Report, he had between fifteen and twenty sexual partners simultaneously in the early two thousands. Allison Mack didn't know this. All she saw was the rampant deification of Keith. According, to Social Psychologist Robert, Zion's human beings are subject to a phenomenon called the exposure affect Zairians found that the more a person is exposed to an object or an idea, the more likely they are to believe it early on analysis introduction to nexium. She saw Keith being celebrated as an enlightened better during the week, she witnessed followers flocking to him after his volleyball games in line with the exposure effect. It's possible Alison to began to view Keith as a deity, the addition of a Hollywood actress to his coterie of admirers likely filled Keith with joy, and yet even as he was enjoying the fruits of the kingdom, he had built trouble was brewing within his ranks. Barbara Bouchet, the woman who invented the week that venerated his birth was beginning to challenge his authority. By the late two, thousand, forty, nine, year, old Barbara. Bouchet had been a member. Of nexium. For nine years. She dated Keith Rene for almost the entirety of that time, and after nearly a decade with Nexium, she had grievous concerns about the way. The group was being run Barbara wasn't alone in her feelings. She was backed up by eight other women including fellow upper level next in Susan donors bolstered by their number. The next nine confronted Keith in an article for Frank Lotto's website art voice, Susan donuts detailed. The group's main points. She called key thought for his sexual exploitation of female students for borrowing large amounts of money from members and finally for his. His refusal to pay state or federal taxes in response Keith was simultaneously dismissive and threatening using needlessly technical jargon. He told the women that they didn't have the data to fully understand the true reality of the situation. They didn't have his of leadership or the experience of preserving people's lives at that. One of the women pushed back. She said that Keith didn't have leadership experience, either since his company consumers byline had fallen apart within a few years, her accurate synopsis of his CBI failure caused a flicker in Keith's previously calm demeanor, his voice soft yet. Furious. He told the women that he'd had people killed because of his beliefs and because of their beliefs. It's unclear how the confrontation ended after that. However, we know that ultimately the meetings accomplished nothing. Keith, refused to admit any wrongdoing. So all nine women defected, it was the largest exodus of upper level members. Keith had suffered to date. He didn't take it well, when Tony Natoli dumped Keith, he attacked her with a series of retaliatory lawsuits Barbara Bouchet suffered the same fate. Keith had already squandered the bulk of her savings in speculative commodity trades, Barbara spent the rest of our coffers. Coffers battling his lawsuits all while knowing that Keith's Bronfman stuffed pockets were practically bottomless attacking a woman who abandoned him in court likely gave Keith some satisfaction, but it didn't erase the significance of the nexium nines defection. Perhaps the exodus of so many crucial members made Keith fear. He was losing control of his empire. If that was the case, it certainly would explain why he reacted with such ir when it seemed, he was losing his hold over one of his young female members. Up Next Keith. Raniry exerts absolute power over one young woman's life now back to the story. In two, thousand, nine, forty, nine, year, old Keith Rainier was reeling from the defection of Barbara Shea Susan. Donnez. And seven other upper level. Next sins, their sudden exodus likely made him question whether his hold over his empire was as absolute as he believed perhaps driven by a desire to maintain control. Keith reacted with fury when he started losing his hold over a twenty six year old next in named. Named Danielle Flores by two, thousand, ten, Daniele had been a nexen for ten years after moving to Albany at age sixteen Keith had started grooming her shortly before she turned eighteen as a promising student with dreams of Harvard. She'd been excited to learn from the smartest man in the world in the decades since her arrival. However, all that taught her was how to clean offices and pleasure him sexually. Significant Age difference and unequal power dynamic of their relationship was concerning enough. However would made kice affair with Daniela. Even more disturbing was the fact that he was also having sex with her sisters, Mariana and La. Daniela may have been able to ignore this unnatural set up however on one occasion, Keith attempted to coerce her and whatever sisters into having a threesome with him. The traumatizing interlude only came to an end when both sisters broke down crying. That wasn't the worst of Keith's behavior at different points in time hit impregnated all three sisters and insisted they get abortions in the aftermath of Danielle as abortion Keith presented the traumatized girl with silver lining. He told her, the procedure would help her lose weight claiming that Olympic athletes often got abortions as part of their training in light of Keith's cruelty. It's no surprise that in two, thousand, ten, twenty, six year. Old Down Yellow looked for affection elsewhere. She developed crush on fellow nexium member. Ben Myers although Keith was having sex with two of her sisters and countless others. When he found out, Dan Yellow was romantically interested in someone else he lost it according to journalist. EJ? Dixon Keith became enraged by the supposed ethical breach and sent his other girlfriends including prefect to encourage down to apologize ultimately. However, he decided that an apology was too small price to pay instead keith commanded that Daniele remained locked in her small bedroom as a form of penance for the next two years Daniele was. was trapped in the room with only a mattress, a pen and paper her parents. Fervent Nexans who had also emigrated to Albany would bring her food. But under orders from Keith Day, refused to speak to her in her isolation, Daniele grew hopeless and suicidal. She wrote letters to Keith daily apologizing to him and begging him to enter confinement Keith. Didn't. Redan. Yellow desperate letters and he refused to release her from her prison. If he couldn't control the actions of the nexium nine, he could at least dictate the entirety of one girl's life. In addition to imprisoning Daniele Keith enjoyed other victories in two, thousand, ten, allegedly. That's the year. He added Allison Mack to his roster of sexual partners in the four years since she joined the group Twenty eight-year-old Allison. Mack. Had Become A full-fledged nexium evangelist. Preached to family members and friends alike regaling them with tales of Nexium 's brilliance. It's unparalleled ethics. She also consistently returned to the well of her fellow artists according to Scott Johnson and Rebecca sons article for the Hollywood reporter at different points. Alison attempted to recruit seventh Heaven Alum Beverley, Mitchell, and grammy winning singer Kelly Clarkson however, Allison's most disturbing overtures were her attempts to recruit Harry Potter actress Emma Watson in a series. Series of tweets, Alison implored Emma to participate in a unique human development and women's movement Emma didn't respond to her missives and that was for the best because by two thousand, ten Allison's involvement with nexium was already taking a toll on her health according to a former nexium member who bumped into the actress at a Yoga Studio in two, thousand ten. She could tell that Alison had already started a sexual relationship with Keith. A gray pallor that was common to Keats women as they all started to get a little sickly. Keith was attracted to unnaturally skinny women and likely manipulated them into extreme weight loss as a result. The former member stated that his girls looked scary. They all dropped weight. Is, getting too big for their bodies. So they became bobbleheads yet despite the fact that Keith was bad for her twenty nine year. Old Alison committed to the group further when her hit show Smallville came to an end after ten seasons. With the role of Clark Kent's closest confidante behind her ellison decided to audition for that same position and Keith Ranieri's life to that. End, the actress bought a house in Albany and transplanted her life, they're committing yourself to furthering the movement full-time. Keith might have read Allison's move as a sign. He wasn't losing his grip on his followers. He had done yellow in chains at a Hollywood actress warming his bed, his control over his kingdom was unshakable. But keeps feelings of certainty soon, shattered against a series of punishing events. I came the articles in November of two, thousand, ten vanity. Fair published a piece, called the heiresses and the cult in it journalists Susannah Andrews. Dubbed next occult. She also detailed the fact that by two thousand, ten Keith had blown one, hundred, fifty, million dollars of the Bronfman's fortune. That, same year, New York Post journalist Jean McIntosh reported on the bizarre claims Keith made during his meeting with the nexium nine. She specifically focused on his assertion that he'd had people killed. Keith second wave of attacks came from his ex girlfriend Tony Tally, in two thousand eleven, she filed a lawsuit against him, accusing him of repeatedly raping her during their nine year relationship and to tell these claims seemingly bolstered. But in two thousand, twelve, the Times Union's incisive piece in binary shadows dropped in the article journalist James Emo, dotto Jennifer. Gish. Detailed years of statutory rape. Rape allegations from Keith's underage victims despite this deluge of bad press and lawsuits, Keith was able to keep the fallout from penetrating his Clifton Park fortress according to Tony Metallica's book the program next scenes wrote all of it off as a coordinated media vendetta demonizing the press is a common tactic cult leaders use. However the cops played right into keats hands, they reinforced his narrative by promptly pressing any charges. Their hands were tied in many cases. The statute of limitations had elapsed while Keith. Had managed to contain the fallout from without he never anticipated the massive. Would soon suffer from within. Kristen. Was, one of Keith's earliest acolytes in addition unbeknownst to most next INS Kristen was the mother of Keith Son Gaylon since Keith claiming to be celebrate the to hit galeone's paternity. By pretending he was the adopted son of an entirely different woman. However, in two thousand, fourteen, Kristen dropped the pretense when she fled Clifton Park with her child in tow according to Times Union journalist, James, Mo Dotto, kristen ran because she was concerned about her son's welfare in an email. The scared mother allegedly wrote Keith was experimenting on Gaylon I had to get him away. Kristen wasn't specific about what form Keith's experimentation took. However, she might have been referring to his insistence that gala. Rainbow Cultural Gardens or are CG, R. CG, was a childhood development program. Keith created shortly after galeone's birth, all enrolled children were spoken to in five different languages by five different nannies. This might have been the experimentation kristen was talking about however, she may have also been hinting at something far more sinister. According to the program a year before Kristen Escape investigative journalist Chet. Harden received a letter from a woman given the pseudonym Inez like Daniele. Inez. was from Mexico unlike the former student. However, she was heavily involved in Keith's childhood initiative, Rainbow Cultural Gardens in the email, you Nez sent. She stated that she wanted out of nexium. She was beginning to suspect Keith created our cg not to teach children how to speak different languages but rather to groom. Groom them into having sex with adults, Inez alleged that Keith openly claimed that he wanted to use the school to teach children that sex was beautiful and should be practiced openly, we can't say for sure whether Christon was privy declaims of such tenor from Keith. But if she was, it certainly would explain why she left him. So suddenly taking their son with her kristen's departure might have also been motivated by her fears for her own life. A week after leaving. Keith Kristen reached out to nexium nine defector Barbara Bush. Journalist Sarah Berman reported that Kristen told Boucher that she was in hiding with her son. She was afraid for her life because of the things she'd seen Keith to the worst of which was his attempt to pull off what she termed a Mexican plot in this Gambit Kristen claimed that Keith bribed a judge in Mexico to issue an indictment against Barbara Tony, and Susan. Donnez, they were going to be lured south of the border, and once they got their Keith's upper level, Mexican contacts were going to put them in prison. When a Shock Barbara. Asked how serious Keith was kristen responded that the plot had been three years in the making more chilling. Kristen stated that she'd long realized that Keith was not trying to succeed. He was trying to enslave as we covered last week Keith exhibited several traits consistent with a diagnosis of psychopathy in accordance with psychologist Robert. Hare's checklist Keith showed signs of manipulative nece, sexual promiscuity, pathological lying, and a lack of empathy behavioral analysis agents at the F. B.. I. Denna Fide One more characteristic endemic amongst psychopaths, namely, their need to maintain absolute control over others at all. All costs given this desire Christians defection might have been the most painful one keith suffered yet. She'd been with him since almost the very beginning, thus departure would've acted as the final blow shattering any illusions he held about being in control. The first time Keith was reeling from a loss of control. He reacted by confining Daniele to a tiny room with Kristen's defection. Keith would go even further than that. It was no longer enough for him to control one young woman to restore his sense of order and his hold over his empire. Keith decided to enslave scores of women. Up Next Keith crafts a secret sorority to enslave his female members now back to the story. By two, thousand, fourteen, fifty, four, year, old Keith, Raniry had weathered a slew of rapid fire attacks on his credibility I. There were the critical articles that branded him as a cult leader and sexual predator. Then his ex girlfriend tonia tally sued him for raping her during their eight year relationship. However, it was Kristen Kief. One of his most loyal subjects that dealt Keith, the most grievous blow. She left him taking his son with her. But much worse than that. Kristen forced Keith to realize that his hold over nexium membership wasn't absolute and that was unacceptable Keith taught his students that he could control technology and the weather. How would it look if he couldn't even keep his own house in order? In two thousand, fifteen, fifty, five, year, old. Keith. Found the solution to the mutiny in his ranks. He decided to create a secret society of female slaves. He called the group Dos. Dos stood for Domino's obsequious use sorority them. Latin, which they reportedly translated as master over the slave women like both consumers byline and nexium Keith crafted the group to have a pyramid structure. However, DOS didn't sell discount consumer products like CBI nor self-improvement classes nexium. In fact, joining the group was completely free, but that didn't mean that there wasn't a price to pay. In order to gain access to the secret society. Next in women were forced into sexual slavery. However, Keith knew that he couldn't enslave his female members outright. Instead, he needed someone to put a glossy veneer on his heart darkest desires in the past, Keith would have likely turned to bubbly Pam K. Fritz to act as doses unthreatening face as a member of Keats. Original three woman Harem Pam was the cult leaders main Capo procuring him beautiful women to sleep with on demand. However, in two thousand, fifteen, Pam was dying of cancer. So Keith turned to allison mack instead. By two, thousand, fifteen, thirty, three year, old Allyson was more number of Keith than ever. The depth of her feelings were evident when she sang Donny Hathaway I, love you more than you'll ever know at fifty-six birthday celebration with tears in her eyes. The emaciated actress crooned I'm only flesh and blood, but I can be. That you demand. Sentiments of that nature, we're also conveyed in an e mail allison sent to Keith according to journalist e j Dixon in the missive. Alison explained how grateful she was to be deep in Keith's thrall, how disappointing her own strides towards self empowerment had been and how nothing made her feel. So powerful as to be made by him to feel power less in other words, ellison and Keith were perfectly matched. He wanted power and she longed to be powerless. Unfortunately, controlling one willing woman wasn't enough to satisfy Keith desires to gain access to the scores of women. He coveted he convinced allison to be one of DOS. Is I blind slaves? In addition, to Allison, Keith directly recruited seven other slaves including prefects, daughter, Lauren, saltzman. These first line slaves were unique because they knew that Keith was their master. He convinced them that being enslaved to him would help them in turn become masters of their own lives once they bought into this paradox, Keith encourage them to recruit slaves of their own, thus becoming masters in their own, right. According to the program unlike the women directly recruited by Keith, the second line slaves had no idea about his role in the group they joined under the false pretense. The DOS was an exclusively female organization. Nothing could be further from the truth as the sole man top the whole sado-masochistic Pyramid Keith was the grand master. and. He had big plans for dos according to Vice journalist several Berman Keith told Lauren that he envisioned the sorority amassing thousands of members to that end. He told her to work towards recruiting one hundred slaves. According to the program, the recruitment process went like this alison. Lauren or one of the other first line slaves would approach nexium member and asked them if they wanted to be part of the. Secret. Society of bad ass women who were dedicated to the empowerment of other women. This pitch was deductive because it was always delivered by an upper level next-gen wanting to be considered one of the elite. The recruit usually said, yes, it was at that point that they were asked to provide collateral a sort of insurance policy that would make sure they kept the group a secret journalists. EJ Dixon wrote that collateral often took the form of sexually explicit material such as videos of a recruit, masturbating or postmarked false confessions that relatives or loved ones had sexually abused them. The implicit threat was that the women told anyone about dos, their collateral would be released unbeknownst to the women. Even if they did keep the secret there, incriminating items were usually shared with. Keith. Once they provided material for their own future blackmail. Their recruit was officially a slave. This designation came with a whole new set of rules. First. Slaves had to carry out their master's commands. No matter what in order to prove this allegiance, they participated in readiness drills. This meant that slaves had to respond to texts from their masters within sixty seconds. No matter what our. Even if it was the middle of the night, if they failed, they had to submit to punishment recrimination took many forms. Sometimes underperforming slaves were forced to take cold showers or made to stand barefoot in the snow. Other Times they were paddled or whipped journalists cullen. Moynahan reported that on one occasion Keith even called in during a beating to tell the women to make sure that they snap their wrists in a particular way to inflict maximum pain on the. The slave in addition to occasionally taking beatings, slaves were also required to meet three times a week with their masters at the start of each of these sessions both slave and master alike were required to pose for a naked family photo. In these pictures, Keith insisted that women's legs be widely spread and their vaginas prominently angled towards the camera as this weren't intrusive. Enough. Slaves also had to follow a set of rules that dictated specifics about their personal appearance. Some slaves were required to adhere to a punishing five, hundred calorie a day diet. They also were under strict orders not to groom their pubic hair. Lastly, slaves had to commit to remaining celebrate, they weren't even allowed to. Masturbate. The purpose of this particular set of rules was twofold I. IT ensured that the Slaves Fit Keith Sexual Preference for emaciated women who didn't lacks secondly, it kept all their sexual energies in tight reserve. However as mentioned, initially, none of the second line slaves had any idea about Keith's involvement. They were told that they were doing all of it. The cold showers, the graphic pictures, the restrictive diets for their own empowerment. while. It's difficult to understand how they bought into this justification. Their compliance was likely due to societal messaging. We've all been subject to concepts like no pain, no gain. You have to break a couple of bags to make an Omelet sure getting paddled hurt. But if it made a person mentally tough enough to pursue the things they wanted, wasn't it worth it? In. That same vein, a five hundred Calorie Diet was punishing. But at the taught person discipline and delayed gratification weren't those good lessons to learn. It was all in the name of becoming a bad ass like they've been promised. The second thing that might have made doses extreme path to empowerment seem acceptable was the larger self-improvement climate at the time in two thousand, ten's wellness enthusiasts were stuffing jade eggs into their vaginas. Silicon Valley Titans were injecting the blood. Blood of the young into their veins in light of that, taking a cold shower and submitting to a paddling might not have seemed. So strange however like the frog in the pot of water, once the second line slaves had accepted that toss approach was a little off the wall, but temperature was turned up eventually. One of the first line slaves like allison mack would give a second liner. The assignment also known as the order to Seduce Keith Ranieri. It was this task that upper level next year Monica Duran assigned to her slave. Sylvie according to journalist Amanda Arnold to fulfil her assignment. Sylvie was at first only required to send Keith explicit pictures and text messages eventually, however, she was subjected to physical sexual encounters. Arnold. Reported that in one incident, Keith performed oral sex on. Sylvie. After the encounter he told her that he was her grandmaster. Sylvie later stated that at the time she felt so much shame she felt everything was just lies and secrets and darkness. If Keith was aware of Sylvia's despair, it didn't bother him her experience married how several keys interludes with a slaves transpired. Once they were given the assignment by their masters, they proposition him sexually. Keith would either down on them or have sex with them. However. Intercourse wasn't always possible as Keith neared his sixties. Erectile dysfunction became a frequent problem according to journalists Rebecca Son and Scott Johnson. A former Nexen said that if Keith had difficulty getting an erection, which was often he blamed it on her weight despite Kate's callous treatment. The members of DOS couldn't just leave the group they were trapped there. Bondage was threefold first as longtime nexans. Many of them had been indoctrinated by the precepts of genetics to view men as being inherently poly-amorous while women were monogamous. Monogamous. So in essence they'd been groomed to somewhat accept the setup of several women sleeping with one man. Secondly, Keith was revered as a deity within the group. So refusing his advances might not have seemed like an option. Lastly, members of DOS feared that if they did try to leave their incriminating collateral would be released out into the world. However, if the combination this threat and their religious indoctrination didn't prove deterrent enough Keats, most devoted slave, allison mack was always there to bring disobedient members to heal. According to Scott. Johnson and Rebecca sons reporting to Alison. Slaves said the actress was incredibly intimidating, cruel and punitive when a balked at having sex with Keith. Allison. Allegedly screamed at them. You made a lifetime vow. Then she berated them and told them. They were worth nothing that they were weak and couldn't uphold their word. She also told them that if they refused her orders dated other men left the group or refused sex with Keith Day would be destroyed, but while ellison may have seemed unfeeling on. On the outside internally, she was breaking down Johnson and son reported that around this time, the actress penned a veritable cry for help on her blog writing cold sweats. Constantly, the anxiety of being caught makes my heart thrum like a hummingbird. Someday, I will be discovered. I will be found out and yet alison spheres didn't prevent her from engaging in the worst violation Dawson inflicted on its members on the contrary acting on Keith's orders. Alison insisted that are slaves performed one more active loyalty physical branding. When they screamed in agony over the hot cauterize ink pen searing their skin, Alison instructed them to feel the pain and think of their master perhaps during these ceremonies, allison was doing the same in lieu of smelling the singed flesh. Maybe she cast her mind to Keith as for fifty five year old Keith, his thoughts as always were on himself. He was smart enough never to attend the branding ceremonies. However, he received pictures of his handiwork and the site likely filled him with Choi. After all the brands were permanent proof that he still had control over his empire. He was the grand master. However, none of it would have been possible without his most loyal slave and for that Keith sought to reward, Alison? UNBEKNOWNST to the women getting branded. The symbol being burned into their flesh was a combination of the letters, a. m and K R, Allison Mack and Keith Ranieri. are linked initials forever spelled out in blood, the brands might have been absolute, but Keith's Pyramid of Sado masochism was not already cracks. A doubt were beginning to form in the women who made up its foundation, and soon, the whole thing would come crumbling down. Thanks again for tuning into colts. We'll be back Thursday with the final episode of Our foreparts. Special will cover how news about nexium hit the tabloids leading to Keith's imprisonment for more information on key through neary amongst the many sources we used, we found the program inside the mind of Keith Ranieri by toning tally with Chet Hardin, extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of. Of Cults and all other podcast originals for free on spotify not only does spotify already have all of your favorite music. But now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like colts for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream cults on spotify, just over the APP and type cults in the search Bar, we'll see you next time. Colts was created by Max Cutler and a podcast studios. Original executive executive producers, include Max, Ron Cutler, some designed by Mike Romo's with production assistance by Ron Shapiro, Carly Madden, and Joshua Kern. This episode of cults was written by Abi Geli Audie Mako with writing assistance by a cannon and stars, Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson.

Daniele Keith keith Allison Mack Keith Ranieri Keith Day Keith Kristen Keith remarry alison Keith Rene Keith Rainier Pyramid Keith Ellison Keith Son Gaylon Scott Johnson Vanessa Richardson ALLYSON Albany EJ Dixon Barbara Bouchet
Encore: The downfall of NXIVMs Keith Raniere

Front Burner

24:54 min | 3 weeks ago

Encore: The downfall of NXIVMs Keith Raniere

"I'm martin savage and is and we're back with a brand new season of seat at the table. The podcast where we have in depth conversations with notable guests from media sports and pop culture. But this time we're capturing personal stories about the power of the black lives matter movement the urgency of this moment and really what it will take to move forward seat at the table is available now on. Cbc listen on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a cbc podcast. Hi everybody alright. So this is the final encore episode. We're going to run this holiday season. It's my conversation with someone. You will probably be very familiar with josh block hosted while i was on maternity leave and you may also have heard his incredible. Podcast uncover escaping nexium. Josh and i spoke the day that keith renew the founder of nexium was convicted of a laundry list of crimes. We're back with a fresh episode tomorrow. And then of course. Five new shows a week starting the first week of the new year. Talk to you soon. Hello i'm jeannie so three years ago if you are one of the women who had been victimized by keith ranieri. The man seemed untouchable. Really was the leader of the cult lake and nominally self. Help group nexium now. That's all changed in a us. Federal courtroom on tuesday keith was sentenced to one hundred and twenty years having been convicted of a slew of crimes including turning some of his followers into sex slaves and branding them with his initials joining me to explain how rainier his house of cards finally fell down josh block. He's a familiar voice on the show and he's also the host of uncover escaping nexium. This is from peru. Hi josh thank you so much for coming on the podcast again so soon. Hey jamie it's good to be back on the show. I didn't think back this soon. Look i know you've spent years looking at this organization. One hundred and twenty years ranieri got today Did you expect this to happen. I was thinking back to when i first ran into sarah edmonson. Who was my childhood friend. Who i ran into in two thousand seventeen sarah edmonson. We met when were to. We went to the daycare last summer. I ran into her on hornby island. British columbia. I hadn't seen her in about fifteen years. And we have one of those disjointed conversations. You have as run after small children older. I work at the cbc and she replied. I just left cult and at that time the nexium was in full operation. They had centers across north america. They were looking to expand into europe. He people were signing up for the self help workshops and today you know the sentencing is the remarkable end of this dramatic unraveling of the organization. That's happened so quickly. So you know perhaps a more recently. I i perhaps less surprised but when i think back to starting to look into this organization it is quite remarkable and remind us what ranieri was being sentenced for today right so so last year in the same courthouse Keith rainier had a six week trial and he was facing seven counts which he was found guilty on all of them and they range from sex trafficking to child pornography to racketeering. Which is this this charge. That's usually reserved for you. Know mafia and criminal organizations but the prosecution made this case that there was a pattern of illegal activity happening in nexium and that was essentially a crime boss that was using nexium for his personal gain for You know to for his financial gain to procure sexual partners and you know a big chunk of their investigation focused on dos on the secret women's group inside the organization That women joined thinking they were joining a women's empowerment group and they handed over collateral in the form of of nude photos and explicit videos. And once they were handed over. They talked about how they were. Essentially blackmailed to some of them were many of them were branded on their body with the initials of key through neary. The person who's being branded should be completely nude and sort of held to the table. Like a sort of almost a sacrifice. And that's a feeling of submission you know Some of them were instructed to have sexual encounters with keith ranieri and they felt that if they did not comply with those demands they would have their collateral released and and that their lives will be destroyed. I mean that's where the kind of sex trafficking charges come from and so the judge having found guilty of the sex trafficking and of essentially being the head of this criminal organization. What did he have to say today when he sentenced him to one hundred twenty years i mean he he first of all in addition to sentencing him also slapped him with a significant fine. I believe it was one point. Seven five million dollars. He also instructed keith. Ranieri to have zero contact with any nexium associates Which is very important for people who have left the group that wanna see nexium. Leo completely collapsed and he was Very clear that he was unimpressed with keith. Mary's lack of remorse In this case and and certainly that has played into the significant You know just just how long this prison sentence is right. And i want to get to his Lack of remorse in a moment but first if we could spend a little bit of time talking but the survivors here. There are fifteen victim. Impact statements that were read on tuesday Some pretty intense statements about how ranieri left Many women traumatized. And can we start with the first woman to give a victim. Impact statement a woman named camilla. Who is she right yes. She was just identified as as camilla in the courtroom and her testimony is so heartbreaking. She was fifteen years old. She says when keith barry i began a sexual relationship with her and that relationship went on for twelve years and she says that she was she just had her childhood and youth robbed from her that she said quote he. He used my innocence to do whatever he wanted with me not just sexually but also psychologically manipulated me into what he wanted for his own reasons for his own pleasure And and you know i. It is very remarkable to hear her case. Because it's on it's her case. That is the basis for the child pornography. Charges that keith regnery faces i mean they the. Fbi found nude photos of her when she was fifteen on his hard drive So very heartbreaking. To hear and obviously i presume very dramatic for her to provide testimony directly to him right. I saw the new york. Times was reporting that she was advised not to participate in the trial and then This was the first time that she actually decided to speak out on tuesday. I know her whole family is entangled in this as well right and her sister also spoke on tuesday and her sister had been ordered to be confined to a room for almost two years because she apparently kissed another man. That's right i mean. It's the story of this. Family is so bizarre and so tragic and this came out in the trial as well that she was all you know. He had sexual relationships with three People in that family and this woman committed what they call an ethical breach. Which was that you know. If you're in a relationship with keith barry. You're supposed to be entirely devoted for him. You may not be with other people and she had admitted that she had a crush on another boy and she was confined to a room almost two years and actually comp. The nexium took away Her passport. she's a mexican national so she really couldn't leave And was stuck there and that was. Her story was very powerfully recounted in by her in the trial last year. Right right and i understand the whole family has been torn apart by this Rainier apparently had a sexual relationship with all three of the daughters in this family and the oldest daughter and the father are still supporters of for neri This is it's such a tragic story. I'm not a host of ideas in this age of click bayton online shouting ideas and meeting ground for people who want to deepen their understanding of the world. Join me as we crack open concept to see how it plays out over place and time and how. It matters today from the rise of authoritarianism to the history of cult movies. No idea is off limits ideas on the cbc. Or wherever you find your podcasts. And i'm is cold and we're back with a brand new season of seat at the table. The podcast where we have in depth conversations with notable guests from media sports and pop culture. But this time we're capturing personal stories about the power of the black lives matter movement the urgency of this moment and really what it will take to move forward seat at the table is available now. Cbc listen on spotify or wherever you get their podcasts. I wanna talk about another one of the survivors here. Millions of people have heard your podcast and are familiar with sarah edmonson a former high ranking leader in this group. She's a she ran the vancouver chapter She has branded with keith initials. And what did she have to say today. So she provided a victim impact statement actually buy video coach or a guru or leader you're a parasite a griffin and a liar and i hope those words impacted him interesting. She used lot of the nexium language. I mean those those ideas obviously they have colloquial use but a particular significance within nexium. Because we use that language to attack keith. Neary call him out. You know saying that you professed all this personal growth and and and you know challenged us to grow but you applied none of it to yourself. It was a contradiction. It was kind of hypocrisy that that he claimed to be this. You know enlightened leader in the lightning grew and someone that she was committed to and followed for so long and presumably wants to late on the line and let them know that he's not what he espoused to be. He lied to us too many of us. And there's a mixture of of happiness and sadness. And i hope that everyone can heal and move on with their lives. You mentioned earlier. How renewing has maintained his innocence throughout the trial and he has supporters who were in the courtroom on tuesday. I understand and what do they all have to say about this. Yeah i mean so interesting that despite everything that's come out about this group i mean in the early days find. You can understand why people took a long time to leave or wrap their head around what was happening the organization but now there's been so much media covered so many documentaries off the these very extensive investigation by the fbi and yet there were more than a dozen people that are supporters of keith rainier. That were at that courtroom today. Who believed that. He is innocent. Who believed that. He has not received a fair trial and they stand by him and it seems like nothing would shake them. I mean i wonder. I'm curious to know because one of the claims they make is that that the hard that keeps me really hard drive was tampered with after it was confiscated and they claim to have some evidence forensic evidence that that these Photos nude photos were planted on the hard drive. And yet today you have camilla coming forward and our victim. Impact statements saying that was me. It happened like there's no question that happened. I can't help but wonder if that's not going to shake some people out of their loyalty. A wave away from keith. I understand. He's also recently started recording his own podcast from prison college from an inmate end. Etcetera could morning. Did i wake you. I know i was up already. Good again just gonna free wheel a little to stay. How this goes to express a few things. I can you tell me more about that. Yeah it was earlier. This week. I got tagged in a tweet By zoom it was one of his loyal followers. That said you know keith. Ranieri is actually releasing his own podcast. He wants to tell his side of the story. Check it out and sure enough. I hit i hit the link. I mean it's a podcast sort of in air quotes it is essentially like a monologue from a prison phone Where he is telling his side of the story and and it is that same story. Saying look you might think. I'm a saint. You might think. I'm the devil but like everyone should be interested in this case because it is a case of the failure of the criminal justice system prosecution lie to the court. The prosecution tampered with evidence. The prosecution suborned perjury. And they're more and more point and still claims to be innocent of all the charges that that he has been found guilty of right. I i know he has said that. He plans to appeal the conviction. I want to back up a little bit. A lot had to happen to even get to this trial right Can you take me through some of the major domino's that fell before this trial even began. Yeah i mean it's it's interesting to see because a lot of stuff going on and and the piece that i knew about Initially was that he. As i said i had run into sarah edmonson. She had just left the group part of that secret. Women's group dos and she'd been branded on her body with keith renews initials and she went to new york times and it was on the heels of that story in fact the fbi said explicitly that they launched an investigation into nexium. Because of that new york times article now even to get to that new york times article as people have have been watching the hbo series the vow would and they have incredible access to this period of time especially Of the kind of you know unraveling of the organization but there was a lot of stuff going on to other high level people like The person who recruited sarah edmonson mark also left the organization And so you had all these people trying to drum up attention trying to strategize what they could do. And there was a lot of fear at that time because if you came forward and people who had come forward in the past had paid a huge price nexium would go after the detroit Detractors defectors vary aggressively And even their previous administrations to go to the fbi and say like something not right. Here didn't lead anywhere. I mean the fbi didn't do anything until that article came out and then the fbi investigation keith. Near he leaves the country he goes to mexico and a few months later. He's arrested in mexico along with five other co-accused five other leaders in the organization. Right and these coaches include clare bronfman the heirs to the seagram's liquor fortune. Right and allison. Mack is an actress in the in the television. Show smallville yes. And claire has been sentenced. She was sentenced last month But allison mack and The other co-accused have not yet been sentenced. I mean they're sentence will be Sentencing will be coming up soon. Essentially as as you just went through. All of these people ended up pleading guilty and renew. He went to trial alone was just him. And we talked about Cumulus story in the story camilla and her family. But but can you take me through some of the other big revelations that came out at the trial it it strikes me when i was listening to your podcast and seeing the original initial reporting on this like the new york times piece i it was crazy right the stuff that was coming out. Sarah story how. She was blackmailed for the collateral that she handed over and then physically branded but things got much darker it felt like As trial went on one of the things that we discovered was just the extent to which people were kind of operating in these silos in the organization so even for people like sarah who had been part of it for twelve years. I mean there were stuff coming out in the trial that she did not know about And and the keys were nearly and the and inner circle very good job of managing information managing. Who do you want who was running. What part of the organization some innocuous things and some really egregious things. And i think some of the most shocking stuff for people was just How many people keith. Rene was was in a sexual relationship with i mean. He had a harem of of ten to fifteen women and we discovered that he was Forcing many of them to have abortions on on his direction we discovered A lot of manipulation and coercion. We discovered that that that this kind of front facing side of keith ranieri that you know. Sometimes he was even Even claim to be like a salad and a renunciation the renunciation material goods. You know behind the scenes. Something very very different was going on. Yeah it was. It was really difficult today to read some of these victim. Impact statements One of the women. India oxburg she. She said flat out like he raped her. I want to ask you hearing so much about this. This abusive behavior. How is it that you think rainier eat was able to draw so many people into his web into his orbit. Yeah that's a great question. And there's one that we kind of grappled with a lot as we were Investigating the organization and trying to figure out who he is because he's really dorky. Like he really is. And if you've watched the hbo documentary you kind of a whole. They have incredible access. he is and he. He plays volleyball and he. Has this like terrible haircut. And he instructs his followers to come watch to play volleyball. You know late at night twice a week and he's kinda awkward. What is it about him that that made people come to him. And i and. I think there's a few things we discovered was that he had this really remarkable ability to build report with people to connect with people and and people felt like when he talked to you. He got you he kind of he made you feel like you were the only person in the room and he really was able to very quickly understand what made you tick. The other thing that made the organization powerful was the people he surrounded himself with and it was really having this group of of charismatic women around him predominantly women that Propped him up so there was a lot of of building up is what a veneration of him and that became infectious. And the last thing. I would say that that was so smart or effective with his organization was their ability to attract powerful people and successful people. So you had allison mack. You had actors That that has some degree of fame. You had the bronfman sisters that are these billionaire. You know era s.'s. You had the sons of a former president of mexico and so when sarah edmonson and when other people were going around and and and trying to recruit members to nexium inconceivable to take the course they could point to them and say look. Who's a part of this. Like these are not just schmos that are part of this organization. These are very successful powerful. People that are coming here because they believe in keith. Neary and probably the biggest coup. I mean the biggest win for them. Was the dalai lama coming to albany. And you have you know in two thousand nine. You have keys monari. Ansi salesman sitting on stage with the dalai lama and essentially the dalai lama. I mean the perception is the dalai lamas endorsing this organization. It kind of provided such a incredible legitimacy to this organization and that again is just a huge win for it so interesting to hear you talk about all of these well-known figures that essentially gave this a veneer of legitimacy. I know that you've been covering this nonstop. And i imagine you haven't necessarily a chance to talk with the survivors with sarah with other survivors. Here how do you think though that they would react to this this one hundred and twenty year sentence which is you know for all intents and purposes a life sentence final question for today. Yeah i mean. I think for many people. There's just a huge amount of relief. A and partly because you know and i spoke to many people who felt they were afraid of what of next even though they might have left decades ago. They felt that Their lives have been destroyed by keith. Ranieri and nexium that they've been dragged through courts they had been forced into bankruptcy and to know that he's finally behind bars that this chapter in their life is closed and they can move on i think is a is a huge amount of relief for for many people But the there's also people who have and we heard it in in these victim impact statements. Today who have experienced a huge amount of trauma and you know talk to called experts. Who talk about really the lifelong experience for anyone that is part of coercive a high control organization like nexium that it. It's very difficult. You know after you make that initial step out of the organization after you break free and leave you then have to grapple with having been a part of it having been complicit in that organization even if he didn't know what was going on but they had devoted your life to it and you had propped up this man and that can be really difficult it can be really difficult to extricate yourself again. I imagine that seeing him behind bars provide some closure. But i think for many people. It will take a long time to fully reckon with with their role in this organization josh park. Thank you for all your reporting on this end for coming back onto the podcast is such a pleasure. Thank you all right so before we go today earlier this week we did an episode on evictions basically how renters are being disproportionately affected by the covid economic downturn. You can find that episode in our feet since it ran. Though some news. Prime minister justin trudeau has announced the launch of a new rapid housing initiative that invest one billion dollars to create up to three thousand new permanent of housing units across the country. The initiative will provide five hundred million and immediate support for predetermined municipalities and five hundred million for projects from from across the country. That's it for today. i'm jay zone. Thanks so much for listening to front burner and talk to you tomorrow for more. Cbc podcasts go to cbc dot ca slash podcasts.

sarah edmonson keith keith ranieri josh block ranieri keith barry camilla cbc martin savage Keith rainier Ranieri fbi Cbc keith regnery hornby island keith initials new york times keith rainier neary
Full Episode: Friday, October 30, 2020

World News This Week

22:31 min | 3 months ago

Full Episode: Friday, October 30, 2020

"From ABC News World News this week. I'm Chuck Sivertsen a New York coming up sprint to the finish. For granted work for every single vote up the last minute, we are creating the greatest red waved history. Record Kobe cases you not want to have to looking to a lockdown, but that's where we're heading. They don't act origin generally hurricane Zeta. Got The over. The wind ripping down canal. Street. And a major discovery on the moon, we're not talking rivers or lakes here. This would be water stuck to the surface molecules of water. People and events that made headlines when world news this week continue. With Election Day next week can all out blitz this week president trump crisscrossing the country scheduling nearly a dozen events in forty eight hours former vice president Joe Biden, flooding the airwaves with ads and staging virtual events amid pandemic the candidates stumping in the Midwest on Friday and on. Thursday, both in the battleground state of Florida to tales from ABC's Mary Bruce Florida goes blow it's over we are going to win Florida and we are going to win four more. Candidates Thursday with Dueling Florida rallies the state is a must win for the president. He's held five rallies. They're this month more any other state trump trying to sell his record even as the state's economy is taking a hit from the pandemic under my leadership, the Florida, tourism industry, and hospitality industry we'll come roaring back very soon. It's ready to happen. We're making the term and he's touting a new report showing the economy grew at a record thirty, three percent annual pace. During the third quarter but economists say it's not enough to make up for the massive losses during the first half of the year. Many Americans still feeling the pain over seven hundred and fifty thousand filed new unemployment claims just last week even with Cova cases spiking in the US hitting dire new record more than eighty eight, thousand new cases in a single day trump is still insisting it's not a big deal using his own recovery. As an example, you're GONNA get better. If I can get better, anybody can get better and I got. Biden is accusing the president of giving up on the pandemic sixteen thousand people in Florida. have been lost amazed that people out of work on the edge. They can't see the light at the end of the tunnel promising. He can tackle the virus and bring the country back. I'm not going to shut down the country, but I'm going to shut down the virus president trump's super spreader events spreading more virus around the country and here in. Florida today the candidate's spouse is also on the Road Jill Biden in in Michigan Thursday and for the first time this year first lady melania trump joining her husband on the trail. No Florida. Here in her home state. Early. Voters are shattering records more than eighty two, million Americans already casting ballots many waiting hours online house speaker Nancy Pelosi says it's encouraging whoever they're voting for. It's a joy to behold people exercising their civic duty honoring the sacred right that we have to vote in our democracy Texas topping previous tallies as we hear from ABC's as delicate era new data released Friday morning shows. More than nine million have already voted in the state of Texas with voters across Houston area counties smashing all time records Harris County Clerk Chris. Holland's revealing the county has now surpassed the entire voter turnout from 2016 mail and voting also in demand ninety, million Americans requesting absentee ballots at least fifty, six, million sent in so far. Here's ABC News Chief White House correspondent Jonathan. Karl in. All fifty states, those mail in votes must be sent by Election Day, but in twenty eight states, they must also arrive by the time polls. Close the Supreme Court rejected an effort to extend the deadline in Wisconsin would have allowed another six days for those ballots to arrive in the mail and still be counted in twenty two states. Ballots are counted if they arrive in the. Days after the election as long as they are postmarked by election day, there's nothing new about voting by mail, but President trump continues to attempt to sow doubt about it. tweeting without evidence big problems in discrepancies with mail in ballots must have final total on November third twitter put a warning on that message saying it is disputed and might be misleading another misleading statement by the president. Very nice if. A winner were ladder November third on counting ballots doing. which is totally inappropriate and I don't believe that that's why our laws I don't believe. Again in twenty two states, ballots are counted even if they arrive days after the election as long as they're postmarked on time another factor to watch win the votes are actually counted. It may take a while thirty four states will not even begin to count those millions of in votes, Intel election. Day One of those is Texas where polls show Biden and trump in a dead heat both candidates are courting Latinos the largest non white voting block in the country we're not Ramirez a rancher born and raised in Texas told our John Quixote's he voted early for the president. Trump the economy. Bottom line but in poll after poll Joe Biden maintained a big lead among Latino voters, Sima? Hernandez the first her family born in the US wants to make sure they go to the polls and there's too much at stake. There's too much steak with this kind of president in office with a dangerous rhetoric. And his dangerous policies who supreme court this week rejected an extension for receiving and counting ballots in Wisconsin but ruling differently in two other battleground states. Here's ABC News senior national correspondent Terry Moran the Justices Turning Back Efforts by Republicans to block election officials from accepting absentee ballots they arrive after election day three days after in Pennsylvania, nine days in North Carolina the justices declining to do that saying it's just too late in the day but they said they could take up the cases afterwards also up for grabs this election control of. Capitol Hill Democrats hoping to flip four seats and win back the Senate here. Again, ABC's Terry Moran as political ads blanket the airwaves. This election season could become the most expensive ever with several Senate races passing two, hundred, million dollars each, and now some Democrats are sensing victory in Arizona Republican Senator Martha, mcsally fending off a strong challenge from former astronaut Mark Kelly, the husband of former congresswoman Gabby giffords mic sally's the incumbent appointed to succeed the late senator, John McCain and she's had to distance herself from President Trump's harsh attacks on. McCain equipped frankly it pisses me off when he does it in. South Carolina trump ally senator Lindsey Graham is in the fight of his political life begging for cash on Fox News the Internet's melting down. There is an absolute desire to take me out Lindsey Graham. Dot Com I need your help now more than ever grams getting outspent by an unexpectedly popular Democratic challenger Jamie Harrison. He's shattered fundraising totals and unleashed a barrage of attack ads. He's attacking US opposing help for South Carolinians refusing to extend the Kovin unemployment benefits saying over. Our dead bodies will get reauthorized just one of many races showing longtime incumbents in jeopardy in Maine Republican Senator Susan Collins Infuriated many voters with her vote to confirm. Supreme. Court Justice Brad Kavanagh. She's struggling to hold on against Democrats Sarah Gideon who raised nearly four hundred, million dollars in just three months making this one of the most costly Senate races in the country and in North Carolina where Senator Thom Tillis tested positive for corona virus after attending the White House announcement of Amy Coney Barrett Supreme Court nomination. He's still trailing his democratic. Cal Cunningham. Even after he was caught in a sexting scandal this week a new outbreak of Kobe nineteen inside the White House here again, ABC's Jonathan Karl Five members of vice president pence. His team are now currently infected including the vice president's personal assistant and his chief of staff who is almost always by his side this a month after the first big outbreak at the White House infected more than two dozen people including the president and the first lady paints is the head of the. White House Corona. Virus Task Force he was in. MINNESOTA. Thank you so much for coming out on this blustery day while CDC guideline say anybody in close contact with an infected person should quarantine for two weeks the white. House says pence is still out campaigning because he's in a central worker, the president and his mocking the widespread concern we're rounding the turn you know all they want to talk about his Co.. But by the way November four th you'll be hearing so much about it. But some researchers warned that unless more people wear masks and socially distanced the death toll by the end of February could top a half a million. The president routinely insists the virus has already been beaten but Sunday, his chief of staff said, it cannot be controlled impromptu campaign stop in Chester Pennsylvania. Biden responded. The fact of the matter is this Presents Chief of staff just the knowledge they're giving. Anybody. He vowed a Biden administration will get control of the virus and look folks I promise you this. I'm never going to give up. On, what will inherit January? Twenty first? Rate he's going is not gonNa be good. We're going to be. Biden's approach to the final days is dramatically different and more cautious than trump's were not put not super spreaders this as the US hit a new record this week for daily Covid cases ninety thousand more than one infection every second more than nine million cases in the country since the pandemic began and according to a new hhs memo obtained by ABC News Key. Metrics are still rising cases up in forty eight states more than two, hundred, twenty, nine, thousand Americans did doctoral Shisha gene of Brown university's School of Public Health with a warning we do not want to have to look into a lockdown, but that's where we're headed if we don't act originally in Milwaukee. Wisconsin this week, a staggering thirty, six point, nine positivity rate mayor Tom Barrett considering more restrictions. Nothing's off the table right now because the numbers are growing unabated level and it's just not acceptable. ABC's Alex Perez has more Ohio. Governor Dewine says Jewish no place to hide from the virus as cases surpassed three thousand for the first time viruses raging throughout the state of Ohio in Wisconsin the latest numbers grim nearly five thousand new cases reported. Thursday the positivity rate here a jaw dropping thirty six point nine percent hospitals in the state on track to run out of ICU beds in as little as two weeks one in five reporting critical staffing shortage I couldn't breathe. Without the oxygen going low sixties seventies, and I had to have that the machine on constantly Kerman lerma battled covid nineteen in July suffering through forty five days on a ventilator, both of her lungs. But a turn for the better for this Milwaukee resident nine days ago the fifty two year old received a double lung transplant saving her life. It's about being responsible, being educated and understanding the power of this guy risk in all right now, twenty five states setting new records refer cases in the last two weeks. So concerning El. Paso. County. Texas enacting immediately a two week shutdown of non-essential businesses and with Halloween real fear the number of people infected across the country could surge even more ABC's Alex, Perez and Kenosha Wisconsin. Protests in France. This week is a month long lockdown begins this as much of Europe undergoes what officials call a second wave of covid nineteen ABC. News Foreign correspondent James Longman unwind this is happening there is tracing so we can't follow cases where they go. We don't know where people are going. We're not. We're not sure where these infections are spreading in the white community and I think that's the great issue that Europe is dealing with when we had our first lockdown across this continent the hope was during that time governments would fix that test and trae systems they didn't do that back in the US. Deadly Hurricane Zeta hammering the Gulf coast then hurtling north. ABC. News. Senior meteorologist. Rob. Marciano with details. After a stunning late-season Landfall Louisiana. Zeta. Continued its path of destruction. Knocking out power to millions multiple people killed by falling trees in the Atlanta area power knocked out to some early voting locations in Georgia just days before the election. Zeta coming ashore as a powerful category, two hurricane south of New Orleans. Our south of various. Ripping, down, Canal Street. Over eight feet of storm surge in Mississippi and Baluchi family rescued from high water. And the house was sledding us. Scared because the water was coming in really fast and we didn't know what to do delight revealing destruction in gulfport boats pushed into the parking lots. There is damage and debris across the city of new, Orleans Brian Ellis was badly hurt by the flying debris I'm glad my witnessed and Cam and call them Zeta the fifth named storm to hit Louisiana the season full house actress. Laurie Lachlan reported to prison Friday details from ABC's Aaron Katersky Laurie Lachmann began serving your two month prison sentence for her role in the college admissions cheating scheme. She wasn't due to report to prison until next month but prosecutors agreed she could begin serving her time sooner. Provided she does not seek early release Lachlan surrender to the Federal Correctional Institution Dublin California. After she pleaded guilty to paying a bribe to get her daughters into, USC is recruits for the crew team. Her husband fastened designer Muslim gene newly must serve a five month sentence and the end of a notorious murder case in Connecticut here. Again, ABC's Aaron Katersky Connecticut's chief State's attorney declined to retry Michael Skakel, the Kennedy relative who had been convicted of murdering his neighbor Martha Marks in nineteen seventy five, and later saw the conviction vacated. The state can no longer prove the case because too many witnesses have died Moxley's brother John said he and his family are at peace I don't think Michael. I think that. It's something in a jealous rage prosecutors securities believe Moxley rejected Skakel's advances when they were both fifteen skakel served eleven years before his conviction was tossed based on the ineffectiveness of his defense attorney a reckoning this week for the founder of Nexium, a group prosecutors called a sex cult keithres aries sentenced to more than one hundred years behind bars. ABC's amy robot has that the founder of the self help group Nexium sentenced to one hundred twenty years behind bars for charges including racketeering sex trafficking, and forced labor several former members of his organization sharing their relief outside of court. This is the finale for him his victimization of people his terrorizing people it really is over. Twenty years, right. So when I got over my shock I was like, yeah. Yeah. Okay. He can't come for me. Now prosecutors say Rene known as vanguard to his followers was a common and Predator who exploited women blackmailing them to be his slaves have sexual relationships with him and having them branded with his initials. It was the most. Inhumane horrific way to treat anybody in court renee maintaining his innocence, calling his victims, freethinking adults more than a dozen former members confronting him in court delivering impact statements including India. Burg who joined the group when she was nineteen years old emotional at times telling the judge I will be victim of Keith Rene for the rest of my life but I don't need to live as one India's mother dynasty star Catherine Oxen Berg spent. Years publicly fighting to free India from the group speaking out exclusively to GMA. I did everything that I could in my power to stop man from abusing and exploiting women and people have seen him for who he is not this mild-mannered Guru self-help leader. He's a vile monster and he deserves to be behind bars. Archbishop. Wilton Gregory is about to become the first black American cardinal ABC's Megan Williams reports from Rome mostly y'all don't already. Washington. Washington. DC Archbishop Gregory is among the thirteen men. The Pope announced Sunday that will become new cardinals or so-called princes of the church. The not the pope made the surprise announcement from his window to pilgrims in Saint. Peter's Square saying the ceremony will be held on November twenty. Eighth. Gregory is a renowned civil rights advocate who has spoken out on racial injustice and against President Trump's visit to a Washington Catholic shrine a day after soldiers used tear gas and rubber bullets to clear protesters trump could be pictured in front of a historic Washington church with the Bible. Gregory has served three times as the head of the US conference of Bishops and was picked by the Pope Archbishop of Washington. DC last year NAGIN. Williams. News Rome, it's time to roll the clocks back, but there's a push to the time change. As we hear from ABC's aerial Russia, the end of daylight saving time made more complicated this year with many parents working from home and millions of kids virtual learning in the afternoon and early evening just to have that extra light is really important. The singer family of new. York. Says, the time change is one more major disruption. My daughter is exit because she goes to school in a dark and she comes home in the dark. The American Academy of Sleep Medicine says shifting to and from daylight saving time has been associated with. Sleep disruption mood disturbances and even increased risk of fatal crashes this at a time when sleep issues anxiety and depression are already on the rise during the pandemic. Now, the academy recommending scrapping the seasonal time change altogether for decades some states like Arizona and Hawaii have kept the clocks the same year round citing the benefits of consistency and as the pandemic persists Florida's Senators Marco Rubio and Rick Scott Proposing a bill to do the same nationwide through November twenty twenty one coming up a major lunar discovery. The first time water has been confirmed to be crescent on a sunlit surface of the mood when world news this week continues. The. Family come we have to win. This is the most important election in the history of our country. I. Will draw the Best of stop the word I'll be an American president who will your next president I am your president of law and order fanned the flames of Hate election-night, ABC? This is a battle we will win and we'll do it together ABC election night live and on Apple News. Scientists this week announcing they found much more water on the moon than they thought. There was ABC's Brad Milkey spoke to National Geographic Science. Writer Maya Way. House about the discovery my. First of all, what like there's water on the moon. For. Sure. So signed to some long suspected that there's some form of water on the moon. and. The two new studies really address sort of water in different regions of the moon rebel grabby showed that water on the moon surface is in permanently shadowed craters. The day we are announcing that for the first time, water has been confirmed to be present on a sunlit surface of the moon. One is really looking at the sunlit swallows across the moon and we're not talking rivers or lakes here. This would be water stuck to the surface like molecules of water stuck to the surface of tiny grains or certain capsulated in beads of glass and in two thousand and nine instruments on three different spacecraft confirmed that there was indeed water lake signals in these sunlit portions of the. Moon the problem was that these early analysis couldn't tell the difference between water an related molecule hydro. Axel. So one of these new studies kind of tweaked that method so they actually can now say unambiguously that yes, on the sunlit zones of the moon, there's actually some water there. Why do we care that like what would this mean for us for humans in for the universe going forward, right. So one of the primary things that's brought up when people talk about water on the moon is the potential for. Future humans traveling to the moon or beyond the idea of a permanent lunar base that often comes up and this includes Nastase upcoming mission artem message. That's like if we're living there like we need, we need water. So so it's nice that there's water up there like to drink instead of hauling bottled water up there. Sure and this is not an always necessarily to drink the main thing that. Is generally talked about when we're talking water on the moon is the idea of using it a mining at for fuel. So if you split them apart and liquefy, you can actually produce fuel that can be used in. Yeah. It's super duper expensive to bring stuff up to the moon and so if you can find a resource that actually replenish itself on the surface, that would be pretty amazing. Those are the people and events that made world news this week. World. News. This week was written and produced by John Harris. I'm Chuck Sivertsen ABC News. New York.

ABC president President trump US Joe Biden ABC News Florida Texas Wisconsin ABC vice president Jill Biden Chuck Sivertsen Senate New York Jonathan Karl Louisiana North Carolina
WEEKEND EDITION- Trust in the Election Polls, Massive Early-Voting Turnout, Keith Raniere Sentenced to 120 Years in Prison

The Daily Dive

23:50 min | 3 months ago

WEEKEND EDITION- Trust in the Election Polls, Massive Early-Voting Turnout, Keith Raniere Sentenced to 120 Years in Prison

"What's it like to drive the Volvo xc ninety plug in. Hybrid. The thrill of four hundred horsepower eight twin engine. The joy of impromptu road transit. And Serenity. Of Electric power in pure ECO mode. Visit DMV evil retailer today to experience the xc ninety recharge plug in hybrid for yourself. Welcome to the daily Died Weekend Edition I'm Oscar Ramirez and every week I explored the top stories making waves in the news and some that are just plain interesting. I'll connect you with the journalists and the people who know the story and bring you news without the noise. So you can make an informed decision. You can catch a new episode of the daily Diet every Monday through Friday that's ready when you wake up. On the weekend edition, I'll be bringing you some of the best stories from the week. Leading up to election day the national polls continue to show Joe Biden is in the lead over president trump but there's been this lingering scepticism about the polls since the two thousand sixteen election weren't they wrong the last time There's a few things that are different. This time around polls are doing a better job of reading trump's base. There's fewer undecided voters, and then there's a big focus on state polls for more and why there's more reasons to trust the polls this time speak to Chris Con Polling editor at Reuters. So let's back up to thousand sixteen. There are a lot of things. At the polls got right and they're things that the polls got wrong in two thousand sixteen and it's worth knowing them if we're talking about how to read them this time around nationally most polls including our poll with Reuters polls showed that Hillary Clinton was ahead in national cocker our final reading before that election issues ahead by about two percentage points on hold. Hillary. Clinton and the national vote by two percentage points we're almost dead on the problem was though when you start looking at state polls trying to get a better read on what it going to be the Democrat or Republican in Florida North, Carolina Ohio Pennsylvania a lot of these states where it is very competitive and secondly the demographics are different from state to state each. State is going to have a slightly different percentage of whites and minorities and educated and uneducated, etc. It's much tougher to model opole for each of those states and so after twenty sixteen, you know we all know Hillary Clinton won the national popular vote but lost the college. It was a surprise especially given the consistent reading that we were getting National League that year. Fast forward four years most pulsars including the voters that's just pull has spent quite a bit of time and a lot of resources taking a look at their methodologies looking at how they're gathered survey respondents. You know how they're processing the information and they spend a lot of time trying to figure out how can we better reflect the American public and especially within the states one improvement that a lot of these pollsters have implemented over the past few years is something called education like we realized that a lot of public opinion polls for whatever reason we're not doing a very good job of gathering responses from people who do not have college degrees essentially whites without a college degree increasingly. Years Without a college degree are much much more leaning towards voting for Republicans, much more supportive of someone like Donald Trump and that was a big issue in two thousand sixteen. They were underrepresented in a lot of polls, and so what do we do about a lot of polls like the rutgers accessible instituted something an education weight that is the take the latest population statistics in an area out how many people have a college education, how many people do not and they calibrate the respondent pool so that you have people who do not have a college degree specifically whites without degree are represented to the level that they should be represented in that. Poll, and so we're really talking about apples and oranges here. It's a very different instruments that we have. Now than we had sixteen and in two thousand, sixteen whites without a college degree made substantial portion of the electorate that you're as forty four percent according to Pew Research. So you know if you're not giving them the proper weight in those polls than you're gonNA miss a lot of that. Also, there's fewer undecided voters this time around last time there was no incumbent president was a choice between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump this time president trump is there in your they're voting for him or against him. So there's fewer undecided voters this time around. This election is going to be different from two thousand sixteen specifically because of that, this is an election with an incumbent. It's an election in which one of the candidates has a clear crack record four years of being in the White House. I think most Americans made their minds up about Donald Trump, love them or hate him years ago before coronavirus before the molar investigation they decided long ago how they're gonNA vote there are fewer Americans this time around who are. Undecided in Twenty Sixteen, twenty percent of likely voters all weapon to election day we're not picking site that's one out of every five likely voter was telling us. They didn't know they were undecided between trump and Clinton. We only found out that basically in the final week before that election that a lot of these undecided voters decided you know we're GonNa vote and they cast their ballots and majority of them decided to lean towards a voting for trump over Clinton and That really is the story of the election especially in these key battleground states that trump won by a percentage point less this time around it is much different. We're only seen about six to seven percent of likely voters say that they're undecided it's much a smaller and so because of that, there is less wiggle room here. Right now we're looking at about ten percentage point leave for Biden over trump he already has more than fifty percent and it's just GonNa be. Much harder for trump to make up that ground especially in the national poll and the last big thing that's different. This time around there is a bigger focus on state polls you mentioned in your article Reuters is writing thirty six polls in six battleground states this year just to kind of get as much information as we can, and we're looking at tight races in Arizona Florida North Carolina and Joe. Biden maintains a lead in other places like Wisconsin Pennsylvania and Michigan. Only did a handful of state polls and twenty sixteen greatly expanded that there's a tremendous amount of resources that mortars expanding and and other outlets are expanding to get more information from these battleground states you can see it. If you go onto a lot of these, a lot of these polling advocators, they display all the polling that you can look at it. You can find polls in. Alaska Montana. A lot of places that there really wasn't a whole lot of information in two, thousand sixteen and while these, it doesn't necessarily increase the accuracy. It does give you a lot more data to look at. You can check for inconsistencies. You can check for public opinion over a longer timeframe. It really helps you get a better picture of you know public opinion in those locations. Chris Con. Holding editor Reuters. Thank you very much for joining us. You. took. The biggest storylines throughout the twenty twenty election has been that of early voting and mail in voting the numbers are changing constantly but over eighty million people have already voted early in this election that's more than half the total vote in two thousand sixteen. So this means that likely the majority of ballots will be cast before Election Day for the first time in history, and there might be some delays in getting results. As things are counted for more on what to know about the early voting surge we spoke to Amy Gardner National Political reporter at the Washington Post ethically from the from the from the moment voting began whether it was people receiving their mail ballots in the mail after having requested them or early in person voting beginning starting I think in Virginia and then moving onto Georgia and North Carolina Texas and on and on. The lines, as you noted, have just been astonishing people have wanted to vote. This year is really becoming the year of the vote in an amazing way because we thought that the pandemic would make it more difficult. We thought that president trump's attacks on mail balloting and claims that there's fraud and outing without any evidence that that's the case. Would you know discourage? we did not know that the you know George Floyd death, and the ensuing social unrest would translate into voting that was entirely uncertain that just doesn't always happen with civil unrest and he had all of these things appear to have actually increased people's drive to to basically let's talk about what we know what we're seeing from these early votes. Obviously, we don't know what those votes are individually, but a lot of times this stuff skews towards Democrats although Republicans have started ramping up their mail in voting and voting in these early voting in person voting. So, what are we seeing there and any states in particular that have some surprising data? Yeah. So there are by my count. There are nineteen states where you can actually know the party affiliation of the voter who's cast their ballots, and in those nineteen states only three show advantage in the early vote for Republicans all the others including red states like Oklahoma and Kentucky showing advantage in the early vote for voters who are registered Democrats. As you know, it's very important to remember. We don't know how people are voting, but we do know that there are a lot of folks who consider themselves Republicans who are voted for by I don't know if there is a reverse trend of Democrats who are voting for trump. So you know a lot of that has to do with the fact that trump discourage mail balloting accused election officials trying to promote mill balloting and making it easier of trying to encourage fraud without any evidence that that's the case. But what happened was that had a really discouraging affect on Republicans voting by mail, which is kind of ironic because the Republican Party actually revolutionized Mel valid. And in Florida twenty years ago and made it a really sophisticated early voting operation. But that kind of went to pieces this year when President Trump started attacking doubting. So one of the reasons you see this advantage is simply the rhetoric and the fact that Democrats are more trusting of it than Republicans but that that advantage is starting to narrow in some key states as more and more Republicans are actually going to vote early in person that's true in North Carolina. We think it's true in Georgia and we. Know it's true in Florida, and obviously those are all very important battleground. So figuring out whether there will be enough Republicans left out there to close the gap that exists in some of these states is the million dollar question of the election cycle and one of the profiles of these voters who is voting. Early, we're seeing a huge turnouts in black communities. We're also seeing new voters and unaffiliated voters I mean it's not just this Republican Democrat thing you know everybody is turning out, which is such a great thing. Really. It's true I. mean the -ffiliated voter is is not to be disregarded I mean in in Florida. For instance, where something like six million people have voted one point two, one, point three, million of those voters are NPA's or no party affiliation and how the no party affiliation voters fall. It's probably the roadmap to knowing who wins Florida and who wins a lot of other states where the unaffiliated decide the outcome folks on both sides of the aisle in North Carolina. For instance, think that the unaffiliated voters are going to decide the outcome of the election they're so it's very interesting. That so many unaffiliated voters are turning out as well, and you're absolutely right that you're seeing a lot of enthusiasm enthusiasm among black voters We have interviewed dozens of black voters standing in line on the very first day of in person voting in their states talking about why they're out there about how they're willing to stand in line for eleven hours for five hours whatever it took because they were so angry about the politics of this year, they don't like president trump they don't like the ways in which they believe he's tried to make it harder for them to vote and it's Almost as if he awakened the sleeping giant and prompted people to be more insistent upon exercising their right to vote, it is important to point out. That is not only You know people of color who tend to vote Democratic or other democratic groups that are turning out. Texas has the absolute highest turnout rate of anywhere in the country. It's well over eighty percent of two thousand sixteen levels already before we even get to election day but it's really interesting because the the the highest turnout is in a very you know populous growing suburb of Austin turning blue right now, but it's also. In a county outside of Dallas, Fort Worth, it's very conservative. It's an tiny rural community of nine thousand people in the center of the state. It's everywhere and so I. Think it's really important for for you know the listeners and the voters to remember that the enthusiasm is on both sides right now, the people who want trump to trump to win a second term are extremely enthusiastic about voting for him, and so again, this is a this is a real down to the wire calculation of of WHO's going to win because it just all depends on who turns out on election day. Amy, Gardner National Political reporter at the Washington. Post. 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The most unusual guests they sound like someone you trust. Me Don't touch it. Don't look at it a tour guide that can't be trusted. Was it luck fates but place to here. And the newest arrival. You Way. Starring Keegan Michael Key as the caretaker please make yourself at home. After. This is. Produced in three dimensional by neural audio to place you right in the center of the story and ways you'll have to hear to believe. For full exposure listened with headphones airports. One story each night starting October nineteen and ending on Halloween. From iheartradio and Bloom House television listen to Aaron McKie's thirteen days of Halloween on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Look. Developed. This week key three neary the founder of nexium which some have referred to as sex cult was sentenced to one hundred and twenty years in prison for sex trafficking and fraud on Tuesday women in a secretive sect of nexium were said to be forced into sex with renewing and also branded with his initials for more on this will speak to pull our. Melendez reporter for the daily beast she was in the courtroom and tells us how it went down throughout the trial Keith. Rene was pretty emotionless. He didn't really respond to any of the very grotesque accusations that are being hurled at him throughout the six week trial and during the sentencing on Tuesday wasn't any different. He kept composure he really didn't have a response he. Actually spoke right before the sentencing was announced and that was the first time where he acknowledged that he had listened to everyone's testimony that he had heard what everyone said and while he's still maintains that he's innocent and it's a theme that he is said before he expressed remorse to these people and that it was the first time that there was any sort of. Acknowledgment that he had actually heard what he said now it's surprising that he had no reaction and that even when he was faced with a hundred and twenty years in prison that he had no reaction but it was the first time that we had heard or any semblance said, he was even grasping what they said or even took in with the accusations against him. I mean it's so crazy and I have the quote here I just wanted to read it real quick. I am deeply remorseful and repentant true I am not remorseful over the crimes I do not believe I have committed at all, but I am deeply remorseful of all this pain. So really just kind of on both sides of. But just maintaining his innocence. The other thing that happened there before the sentencing was there was more than a dozen former NEXIA members that were speaking out about him and their experiences with them. What did we learn there? So there were fifteen people that spoke gave the victim impact statements before the sentencing of the fifteen people. Some of them are pretty big figures in the next nexium community. Now, Sarah Edmonson Mark The Sunday some of the people that testified at the trial then yellow who was locked in the room for two years Nicole who was a DOS member. And Asleep, dowse and Mac but the most surprising person to me that spoke with Camilla who wise mentioned throughout the trial she's the basis of the child pornography charges that Petri neary was convicted for, and he was accused in the trial of having a relationship with Camilla since she was fifteen taking photographs of her when she was underage and having a years long relationship with her in her victim impact statement on Tuesday she described that she was basically encouraged not to speak to the authorities for the trial kind of imply that someone in the next world silence tour her. That were provided from the next and we'll tool turn not to testify or speak with the authorities and was her first time. She was able to speak out and talk about the abuse that he had unfilled upon her for over twelve years, and she basically goes through in pretty graphic detail from when she first met. Keith renew when she was thirteen years old and how he told her she was special to finally having a sexually relationship with him starting at fifteen and just their relationship until she was in her late twenties. And how the relationship made her asleep herself from all her friends and family. Her story was very important in the trial also, because her sister is in yellow who was placed in a room for two years for telling Keith Rainier she didn't want to have a relationship with him anymore and just hearing Camilla talk for the first time about how abused she was mentally psychologically sexually. By Keith Ranieri and she felt like she couldn't even turn to the authority even after Keith Ranieri was arrested and a bunch of his co conspirators pled guilty kind speak. So level of coercion and abuse that kind of surrounded nexium this whole time and she was very strong I. think she only broke down once or twice and it was her time she said in her awards. It was her time to speak out her time to tell her story because she didn't know when she would get another opportunity like this. That's really the underbelly of this whole story on the surface. It was a group that had workshops to promote greater self-fulfilment things like that. It was called the executive success program, which is where a lot of people kinda got in on this. Thing. The other interesting thing that I wanted to mention also is that part of this, he's not supposed to have any contact with any other nexium people. He still has a bunch of followers and throughout this too that we learned that you know he was still giving commands to people in the organization. He was even trying to get people to start a podcast with a cash prize. kind of like cereal poke holes in the case or something Ito to try to get them off type of thing. So he's still very much involved with the people that remain his followers. Yeah absolutely I think one of the biggest hits to him was the sentencing is barred from seeking to any nexium members. We've seen from stunting memos, add his own defense lawyers, kind of alluded to it during the sentencing that keeps renew still relevant in the next thing community still exists. It still has followers people believe that he did nothing wrong some pretty high people to battle card goes goes. Up The sentencing yesterday and made a statement afterwards that she thinks that he was denied due process and to cut him off from people who are the only people left that belief him I think wounds him more than keeping him in jail. He's no longer relevant. He can no longer speak out and control these people that have been under some for decades and. Having that sentence was particularly harsh in his opinion I think for him that's going to be one of the hardest things to live with I. Mean it's a wild story from top to bottom. But Keith three, the founder nexium sentenced to one hundred and twenty years in jail for all this hill are Melendez reporter at the daily beast. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you so much. Don't forget to join us on social media at daily dive pod on twitter and daily podcast on facebook. Leave a comment. It was a rating and tell us the stories that you're interested in follow us on iheartradio or subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Time Oscar Ramirez and this is daily dive eakin addition. axios today is a new podcast featuring a team of award winning axios journalists, and hosted by me Nyla boot. We bring you the latest on the events and trends shaping our world including some of the biggest scoops from Washington DC. This new ten minute daily habit helps keep you informed without feeling overwhelmed listened to axios today on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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NXIVM Pt. 4: The Fall

Cults

47:21 min | 6 months ago

NXIVM Pt. 4: The Fall

"Due to the graphic nature of this cult crimes. Listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of sexual abuse descriptions of sexual acts and child abuse that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. In April of Nineteen, ninety nine, thirty, eight year, old Keith Raniry told his ex girlfriend forty-one-year-old Tonia tally that the next time he saw her, she would be dead or in jail. But Tony Wasn't threatened. She was exhausted her eight year relationship with Keith had been debilitating according to her book, the program he had cheated on her repeatedly and raped her at will. But when Tony tried to walk away, Keith couldn't accept it among other damaging tactics. He deluge her with passages from John. Milton's famous epic Poem Paradise Lost. Milton's book was about the battle between God and the Devil in his Paradise Lost Letters. Keith, branded Tony asked the devil. He accused her allowing her pride to driver into committing evil acts. He warned her that like Lucifer's actions had led to A. A fall from Grace Tony's attempts to break up with him would culminate in the destruction of her soul when Tony still refuse to take him back. Keith abandoned poetry in favor of a blatant threat. He told her that the next time they met, she'd be dead or in prison as it turned out, the present guru was right the next time. He was face to face with his ex girlfriend toning tally. One of them was indeed in shackles. However, it wasn't the woman he characterized as a fallen angel on the contrary. It was the man who cast himself as an unimpeachable God. Boy. I'm Greg Paulson, and I'm Vanessa Richardson, and this is colts a podcast original. Every. Tuesday. We look at cults practices, their leader, and their followers. You can find all episodes of colts and all other park has originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream cults for free on spotify, just open. The APP, and type cults in the search bar today marks the last episode of our deep dive into nexium. The group made headlines for physically branding. It's celebrity late in membership and coercing them into being sex slaves all to satisfy its narcissistic leader Keith Rainier. In. This final episode, we'll cover the escalating abuse meted out on the women and Keith Sorority sex ring dos. Then we'll explore how actress Sara edmondson helped. DRAG DASA's horrors into the light finally will detailed Keith's flight to Mexico and his eventual capture. We've got all this and more coming up stay with us. By two, thousand, sixteen, Fifty, six, year, old Keith, Rene had risen to unimaginable heights. He had built nexium into a multi million dollar business that boasted a client base of billionaire heiresses and Hollywood. Actresses kice incredible success likely made him feel in people ended the glow of this power. He started doing more and more insidious things in the dark unbeknownst to some of his most senior nexium executives Keith had carved out a secret society within his already cloistered community. He called it dos like nexium. Daas was based on a pyramid structure. However wears next shelled up thousands of dollars to take classes DASA's price of. Of Entry was much higher in order to join the recruited women had to become slaves at the outset. Most of Dawson slaves believed that they were joining an all female sorority that would help them become empowered. It was only after willingly handing over damaging blackmail material as collateral that the true horror of the group was revealed I. Today were commanded to Seduce Keith, and then they were branded with his initials despite this inhumane treatment. Several of the women in Dos were afraid to leave the group, the ruinous collateral serving its exact intended purpose. They'd unknowingly locked themselves into an unbreakable sexual contract with Keith. Vanessa's going to take over unless psychology here, and throughout the episode please note Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for this show. Thanks, Greg. In an interview with journalist Sarah. Berman? BEDIA. SM. Educator. Carlyle Jansen stated that kinky sexual relationships can take virtually any form, but the basic deal tends to center around submissive participants surrendering power to dominant partners. However, there should never be something hang over a submissive head where they have to do something or else that totally violates free will and consent Keith didn't care about free will or consent by restricting the information he gave to recruits until. Until, they handed over their own blackmail material, he was able to grow a robust pyramid of Sado masochism according to journalist. Colin Moynihan. The pyramid eventually boasted four levels, each slave reporting to her master on the level above as the sole man atop the pyramid, Keith was the grandmaster yet, even this vaulted designation didn't satisfy his ego. If anything does made Keith Crave more admiration, this was evident during his meetings with his eight first line slaves. During these sessions, Keith required that a slave sit completely nude on the floor around him. While he lectured, them fully clothed from a chair on one occasion. Keith. Didn't feel that one of his slaves was being deferential enough. So according to first line slave, Lauren, Saltzman, Keith accused the woman of being prideful and then he kicked her keys treatment of the women in Daas was abhorrent. However, the most disturbing sign of his darkening appetites was his plan to build a dungeon. According to Lawrence Saltzman Keith Convinced Rosa Laura Hanako a wealthy first line slave to purchase a sorority mansion with a roomy basement. It was there that Keith intended to build a dungeon but I he had to stock up on supplies. EJ Dixon reported that Daniele Padilla. Another of Keith's first line slaves ordered thousands of dollars, worth of Beady Sim sex toys likely at the Guru's command. These items included ball gags, shock collars, ankle shackles, and. And a steel cage, it was the cage in particular. That terrified Lauren, even before it arrived, she began worrying that Keith would one day ask her to climate side of it in a later testimony. She stated the idea was that of complete humiliation. You would just be in there until they let you out, it could be ten minutes. It could be an hour. It could be days in truth. Lauren didn't need to climb inside. Inside a cage, she was already trapped by her love for Keith and like the slave who would one day be locked inside of the steel contraption. Lauren had no idea how long her sentence would last. Learn had been a member of nexium for almost two decades. She was first recruited when she was twenty one, her mother Nancy. Salzman was the one who brought her into the fold though her mother was one of Keith's sexual partners. Partners a few years after she joined nexium Keith also began an intimate relationship with twenty four year old Lauryn, Keith's decision to sexually exploit both a mother and a daughter was twisted. However, it's unclear whether Lauren news about Keith and Nancy's relationship. But she did find out that her boyfriend was having sex with several other women in his inner circle according to journalist Colin. Moynihan Keith explain this by claiming that the sex was A. A hardship, he had to undergo in order to further the women's personal growth in addition to this of persuasion, Keith coerce, Lauren into having threesomes with the other women in his Harem. But when she asked him for permission to have a relationship with a man Keith refused instead he promised Lauren. The thing he knew she most wanted he told her, he would have a baby with her despite Keith's promises the baby never materialized when Lauren? Lauren pushed for time line. All He'd say was that they would have a baby in between one and five years however according to Ej Dixon Keith later revoked even this vague time line one day after a volleyball game, Lauren jumped on another man while celebrating their victory. Keith was furious. He told Laura. Her actions were disrespectful and they made him question having a baby with her at all in response Lauren wrote Keith, a letter. Letter in it, she apologized profusely, not just for letting him down. But also for disappointing their theoretical child who hadn't even been born yet. Her accidents weren't to sue Keith's wounded pride. He informed Lauren that he was going to have a baby with another of his many girlfriends in a later testimony lower said, the decision left devastated and yet she committed to stay with nothing. No relationship. No baby nothing around two, thousand, sixteen, Thirty, nine. Nine year, old Lauryn deepened her commitment to Keith further when she swore vow of slavery branded her body with his initials and began recruiting next women into dos in a later testimony. She stated that Keith hoped the group would one day grow big enough to have a DOS slave in political office lauren never convinced a politician to join dos. However, she did end up recruiting DOS game changer. She was an actress named. Sarah Edmonson. In early two, thousand Seventeen Lauren SALTZMAN SAT in thirty nine year old Sarah, Edmonson, Vancouver apartment, and excited note in her voice Lauren invited the Canadian actress to join a top secret international women's group called Dos. Sarah Trusted Lauren implicitly both women were upper level. Next Yen's each doing their part to grow the group's influence in their respective locales, even beyond Nexium Sarah considered Lauren, her best friend, not only Lord officiated her wedding, but she was also the Godmother to Sarah's young son for that reason when Lauren invited her dos, it was practically a no brainer. Sure. Sarah was a little disturbed by her best friends demands for collateral and she didn't enjoy making the videos falsely accusing her parents and husband of committing atrocious. But she trusted Lauren. That's why she also agreed to take a vow of obedience and even more bizarrely to call her friend. Master Lauren explained that the honorific was little more than a formality joking. It's not like you're going to live in a cage or anything the levity set Sarah's nerves at ease in addition like several of the other dos recruits Sarah had. had. Long. Been, indoctrinated by Janice, she had internalized ideas that women were weak flaky and lacking in follow-through. She enjoyed the thought of being part of a sisterhood of women who would help her become the strongest most ideal version of herself. But once Sarah handed over her collateral. Lauren. Changed Sarah was forced to answer texts from her master within sixty seconds. No. No matter, the our Lauren also badgered Sarah to recruit her own slaves so that she too could become a master. However, it wasn't the content of Lawrence demands that worried Sarah it was her tone. There was this new threat of condescension running through all of Lawrence requests, and though she had claimed that the title was little more than a formality Lauren had begun. Begun Treating Sarah like a master talking down to her slave, according to Sarah's book scarred while being enslaved to Lauren. Didn't require her to live in a cage. She nevertheless felt shackled by the collateral, her friend held over her head. That's why a few months after joining DOS when Lauren invited Sarah to Flight Albany to partake in an initiation ceremony Sarah agreed. According to Sarah's book on March Ninth, two, thousand, seventeen, she and four other women were blindfolded and herded into a house by Lauren. Saltzman. The learn refused to tell them where they were peaking through the little sliver of light at the bottom of her blindfold. Sarah was sure she was allison, Max House. She'd been there before and she recognized the furniture. However, the former CW actress was nowhere in sight after some time walking Lauren led the women into a room. Then she told them to take off their blindfolds and stripped down to their underwear. Underwear now that she could finally see Sarah recognized the other four women from events over the years at nexium. She also noticed that the room boasted a large massage table and that makes sense learn at told Sarah part of the DOS initiation ceremony would bomb getting a small dime sized tattoo of a symbol that represented before elements. Sarah had never gotten a tattoo and she didn't want one. She liked her smooth unblemished skin. However, her mind was somewhat said at ease when Danielle Roberts entered the room like Sarah Danielle was a longtime next. She was also a doctor. Sarah was relieved that at least a medical professional would be administering her tattoo. Any feelings of ease Sarah had instantly drained away when Lauren pulled down her jeans and showed the women, the area about her pelvis revealing the mark. They were all about to receive. Sarah was horrified by what she saw. It wasn't a tattoo. It was a brand, a horrible scar according to her book Lawrence. Mark was raised red and inflamed like a hunk of meat hanging from the most delicate place on her body. Body instantly, Sarah knew that she didn't want that thing anywhere on her skin, but she couldn't leave Lauren had her collateral. Those horrible things she'd said about her parents, her husband, all of it was hanging over her head. So when Sarah was given a face mask to where for hygiene reasons, she put it on when she was commanded to help hold down the legs of the First Slave Gabriela, Sarah, clamped her hands down, and then she watched with horror as Dr, Daniel? Roberts. Dragged a caught ing hand across Gabriella Skin. The process took forty five minutes for forty five minutes. Sarah, listen to Gabriella, screams of pain, and then when it was her turn Sarah climbed up on the table and lay down at Lauren's prompting. She said, the words Master, would you brand me? It would be an honor. Then Sarah Tried her best to lie still as Dr Roberts traced liquid fire across her skin. In the aftermath Sarah tried to make peace with what had happened. She told herself that it was what she had to do to be strong to be a bad ass to take charge of her own life and yet with a permanent mark on her body. Sarah didn't feel very much in charge at all a few weeks. Later as the brand began to heal Sarah was better able to discern the design. She didn't see a symbol for the four elements like Lauren had promised instead. Sarah. saw four years. I A M then a k.? R.. That's when she knew Keith Rainier and Allison Mack's initials had been burned into her skin forever on seeing that Sarah no longer felt powerless on the contrary. She was furious. Up Next, Sarah Blows, the whistle on Dos. If. You're a fan of puzzles like me. You will absolutely loved the fantastic five-star rated mobile puzzle game best means while it's a casual game, it has thousands of unique puzzles that challenged by brain. I really enjoy playing my way through the world of MINUTIAE and I liked that requires some strategy I prefer gains I need to focus and think, and I can do that with the best means I just started playing recently, and I'm already up to level thirty three. Best fiends is full of bright colors and tons of cute characters with new levels. Challenges and Events added every month. Best beings never gets old engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters. Trust me with over one hundred, million downloads. This five star rated mobile puzzle game is a must play download best fiends free on the apple APP store or Google play. That's friends without the our best means. It's a stressful time right now. But if you're having a hard time sleeping stress might not be the only cause. Your mattress plays a significant role to and you can experience the next evolution of sleep on. Purple Purple Mattresses are designed with over two thousand, eight, hundred open air channels, a naturally temperature neutral gel that means they'll never sleep too hot or too cold the. The secret to purple is the Purple Grid. It's a patented comfort technology that instantly adapts to your body's natural shape and sleep style that means the mattress stay soft where you want it firm where you need it and it's comfortably cool all over and because the ultra durable purple grid won't sink or Lou shape. You can count resting easy night after night year after year. Experience the next evolution of Sleep Goto, purple dot com slash colts, and use Promo Code Cults. For a limited time, you'll get one hundred, fifty dollars off any purple mattress order of fifteen hundred dollars or more. That's purple dot com slash. Colts. Promo, Code Colts or one hundred, fifty dollars off any mattress order of fifteen hundred dollars or more terms apply. Now back to the story. In early two, thousand seventeen everything in fifty, six year old, Keith Ranieri's life was working to feed his ego. He'd convinced his frontline slaves to recruit beautiful young women into a Sado masochistic Sorority dos. In addition Keith was fleshing up plans to build a dungeon so that he could engage in even more coercive sex games. However unbeknownst to Keith, as he indulged his darkest vices and Albany up in Vancouver thirty, nine year, old Sarah. Edmonson was set on bringing his perversions into the light before Sarah could do anything. However, she needed to understand exactly what was happening despite. Lawrence, claims that daas was an all female sorority Sarah Suspected Keith was involved. She believed that the twisted directives about the collateral and the brandy were all coming from him. However, she needed something to confirm her suspicions so. So Sarah turned to mark Vincent, A and esteemed filmmaker. Mark had recruited Sarah into nexium more than a decade prior however after his many years in the called both mark and his wife decided to leave hoping to find an ally. Sarah called Mark on the phone during their long conversation. All of Mark Suspicions came pouring out. He told Sarah that he was disturbed about what was happening to the young women in Albany, he suspected that they had formed some sort of. Of extremist group, he heard rumors that some of the women in this group were being blackmailed into sleeping with Keith marks half formed suspicions proved the beauty of Keith's Kingdom of horrors. Every section of nexium operated an information silo, the right hand, never knowing what the left was doing. Even though mark was an upper level next year, he only had fragments, bits and pieces of the puzzle that was dos however keeps information silo depended on his members not speaking with each. Each Other when mark breached the silo by sharing his suspicions was Sarah, her eyes were opened according to her book scarred. In that moment, she realized that she'd been brought into Dasa's Lawrence slave not to join a sisterhood of empowered women. But to be one of the women forced to have sex with Keith or more likely to recruit pretty young women for Keith to have at his disposal, it was at that point that Sarah decided to go to the FBI. For an hour Sarah told an agent at the FBI would had been under her. She explained about her years in Nexium and she tried to break down the predatory Maher that was dos. Then according to journalist, Berry. Meyer Sarah filed a complaint with the New York, State Department of Health Against Daniel Roberts, the licensed osteopath who had performed the branding. Finally, Sarah took her story to the press. There was nothing she could do about the branding, but she'd be damned if she let anyone else be victimized like she was. So she contacted Frank. PARLATO. Frank was a journalist, but that didn't mean he was impartial on the contrary. He had an axe to grind with Keith Ranieri according to Vice Journalist Ellie Reeve ten years. Earlier. Keith had hired frank to go after next ziems enemies. However, the more digging frank did on next see'ums critics, the more questions he had about Keith Ranieri More specifically frank didn't understand how Keith had lost millions of the Bronfman, sisters fortune on commodity trades when frank started asking his two most lucrative cash cows, intrusive questions, Keith fired. Fired him. But as usual, Keith couldn't just break up with Frank. He had to obliterate the people who dared challenge him. So like you've done with Barbara, Bouchet and Tony, tally? Keith sued Frank. That was a mistake and added blogger frank had several online outlets to his name. But more importantly, he was relentless Keith claimed. He didn't sleep frank. Really didn't sleep. He stayed up all hours every day writing article after derogatory article about the smartest man in the world, and even after ten years, francs fury hadn't cooled. So in two thousand, seventeen when Sarah, Edmonson told him Keith had graduated from bilking heiresses to branding women. He jumped at the chance to publish the story. So he could watch his nemesis burn. Frank was the first journalist to report that a group Nexium was branding women, and yet articles did cause some people to leave the Croup. The bulk of Nexium members stayed labeling Sarah, week woman having a Tantrum, the responsive law enforcement officials was similarly disappointing. They initially did little to investigate Sarah's allegations. So she knew she had to ramp up her efforts while frank could be dismissed by next as. As nothing more than a disgruntled ex employee, it was hard to write off the New York Times for that reason, Sarah reached out to journalist Berry. Meyer, and told him her story ELEC Tober seventeenth two, thousand, Seventeen Myers article titled Inside a Secretive Group where women are branded ran on the front page of the new. York, times after the prestige outlet legitimized the mecom tail, the rest of. Of the mainstream media went wild. The story had everything celebrities, sex slaves, billionaires, and all of it revolving around us then Golly, ask, Guru. It was a click bait wet dream and all the outlets wanted their piece of the Juicy Pie ABC's twenty twenty covered the story interviewing mark. B. Sentate Tony to tally and Sarah. Edmonson. In the process vice did a piece featuring Frank PARLATO dynasty actress. Catherine. Catherine Oxen Berg, one on Meghan Kelly's morning show and told the world that she feared her. Daughter India was branded dos slave and at home everybody read and clicked and watched with bated breath waiting for the next more soul to drop the national attention. Finally spurred the FBI to formally open a criminal investigation into nexium according to scarred. They called Sarah back in and listen to her story. This time allotting her a full two and a half day period to tell her tale. As for fifty seven year old Keith, he must have watched everything with trepidation. He had always craved the spotlight, but now he found its glare unforgiving, even worse now exposed, he was bleeding members after all the bulk of Nazis had no idea about dos even prefixed daughter Lauren was a first line slave had been the dark journalist Ej Dixon reported that when she found out, she was furious her daughter and other women got initials branded next to their vaginas and yet she and much of Keith's inner circle chose to stay Keith tried to use their loyalty to save his empire from ruin. Journalist. EJ. Dixon. Reported that internally Keith scapegoated his inner circle. He told them to disavow his connections to dos and claim that they had branded themselves of their own volition. He also encouraged them to make a fake website with the Greek letters. Bar. Alpha my his rationale was that they could tell the authorities that those were the letters in the brand, not his initials. Externally Keith released a public statement denying all knowledge of Dos according to j Dixon. He accused the media of shaming the women for engaging in consensual activities and spearheading a campaign against the rights of women and alternative lifestyles at one point in the email. Keith, even compared DOS members to authors of the Declaration of independence despite his assertions of their independence. Keith's first line. Slaves were still wholly committed to his interests above their own. That's why in a later interview with New York Times journalist Vanessa Gregori Addis Allison Mack. Claimed that she came up with the brand stating people get drunk and tattooed on their ankle B F F for a tramp. Stamp. To Tattoos and they mean nothing according to Gregorian. Allison claimed that she wanted to do something more meaningful that took guts in the interview with Grigoriev. An interview that Keith arranged. Allison also assumed responsibility for the five hundred calorie diets. DOS members stuck to they weren't instituted. So women would fit Keith's sexual ideal. Instead, she claimed that she wanted to save women from the trap of emotional eating as for the requirement that DOS slaves refrained from orgasm that was. So they could quote he'll their negative sexual patterns. Lauren, Saltzman was equally protective, Keith. She told everybody that would listen that he knew nothing about dos according to EJ Dixon emboldened. Emboldened by Laurens Loyalty, Keith once again dangled the prospect of having a child with her even accompanying her to doctor's office visits. So she could receive fertility treatments at the time. Lauren was thrilled. But when Keith refused to get a blood test, she realized that his true intent was to keep her doing what she was doing better than anyone else at the time which was going out and legitimizing dos. And despite this realization. Lauren. Stayed nearly all of key's inner circle. Did this even though they had to know that taking credit for dos, a group that branded unwilling women could possibly land them in jail. This seemingly irrational behavior might have been due to the sunk cost effect-. According to Psychologist Hal are arcs. This phenomenon is manifested in greater tendency to continue an endeavor wants an investment in money effort or time has been. been made. This was certainly true of Keith's Inner Circle Allison. Mack had practically abandoned her acting career to further the goals of Nexium full-time by two thousand Seventeen Clare Bronfman had poured over one hundred, fifty, million dollars of her fortune into Keith's enterprises as for. Lauren, Saltzman, she had sacrificed her lifelong dream of becoming a mother during her best fertility years given everything. They'd lost. It might have seen too painful to walk. However despite his inner circles, best attempts to shield him from consequences. Their denials fell on cold and disbelieving ears, and in November two, thousand seventeen upon hearing that the FBI was interviewing witnesses and victims connected DOS fifty seven year old Keith fled to a villa near Puerto Vallarta Mexico. Keith's Mexican. Villa was in a luxury compound. Perhaps, it was the blatant opulence that set Keith at ease whatever the reason three months after arriving in Mexico, he sent for Alison, Lauren and three other frontline slaves. Keith believed that he needed to have a recommitment ceremony with his slaves. So they could prove their loyalty to him. According to Keith, loyalty, apparently consisted of five women jointly giving him a blowjob according to journalist. Michael Blackman Lauren wasn't looking forward to the event in a later testimony. She stated that she thought to herself at the time. Do I. Really have no way of growing except by participating in A. A group blowjob fortunately, for Lauren, the event never came to pass on March twenty, fifth two, thousand, eighteen, Mexican federales broke into fifty eight year old Keith. Ranieri's Little Slice of Paradise EJ Dixon reported that Lauren salesman was in the kitchen making smoothies when the armed federally stormed inside Lawrence I. Thought was to protect Keith. So she ran to his upstairs bedroom to try and help him escape instead she was barricaded inside the room with him as the federalize banged on the door as Keith hid, Lauren tried to stall the cops by asking them if they had a warrant, they responded by kicking the door in. Here instinctively crouch down to the floor cowering as they pointed, their loaded machine guns at her, all the while Keith, her master, the one who had counseled her in all the ways that men were stronger than women more rational. Made of Sturdier stuff did absolutely nothing to intervene. Finally. Terrified for her life Lauren, called out his name confirming his presence in the room for the authorities. It was only then that the smartest man in the world stepped out of the closet he had been hiding in. And finally Lawrence saw him for what he was the man whose initials she had branded into her body was no grandmaster at all. He was a coward. Up Next Keith is tried for his crimes. Listeners it's Vanessa. We all know that navigating young adulthood can be a wild ride for Social Media Star Addison Ray. It's something she couldn't do without her mom Sherry Nicole, in their entertaining new podcast, original series. Mama knows best addison goes to her mom for advice on all things growing up one here more. Here's Addison and Sherry to fill you in. Hey. All, I'm Addison Ray and I'm her mom. Sherry. And every Monday on our new show. Mom knows best. We're going to get real about all the ups and all the downs of growing up finding love and going viral. We have a bunch of awesome topic signed up like living with your parents dating during a pandemic and so much more, and since I know best, Yano ask some advice to share. Okay. But do you really know best is the name of the show? All right. Well, I think we can let them be the judge of that new episodes of Mama's best air every Monday exclusively on spotify. So follow and you can listen for free. Now back to the story. In March of two, thousand, eighteen, Fifty, eight year, old Keith Ranieri fled to Mexico after a deluge of damning press Mexican federales busted in arresting the cult leader on site shortly after his capture, the Mexican authorities extradited Keith back to New York. They're the cops charged him with among other things, racketeering forced labor, conspiracy, wire, fraud conspiracy, and sex trafficking. In other words, the federal authorities believed Keith Created dos. They accused him of coercing women into sleeping with him. Then branding them with his initials however, even though Keith was pulling the strings, he wouldn't have been able to build dos without his loyal army of accomplices. On April second two, thousand, nineteen, forty, two, year, old lawrence salesman pleaded guilty to one count of racketeering in court. She expressed her remorse stating, I'm very sorry for my decisions that resulted in harm to others and not just the victims in this case, but to hundreds of members of our community and their friends and families. Allison Mack was charged next on April eighth. The former CW actress pleaded guilty to one count of racketeering conspiracy and one count of racketeering according to journalist demand. Arnold? In court. Alison admitted that she coerced women into giving her embarrassing information and photographs in order to blackmail them into going along with Keith's demands. Prefect Nancy Saltzman billionaire heiress, Clare Bronfman, and Nexium bookkeeper. Cathy Russell also pleaded guilty to crimes connected with nexium in court clare like Lauren and Allison. Before her expressed her regret stating I am truly remorseful I endeavoured to do good in the world and help people. However, I have made mistakes despite their expressions of remorse Keith's accomplices respectively face anywhere from two to forty. Forty year sentences behind bars. As of this recording, the court has not yet decided on their punishment. Naturally, the stakes for Keith were much higher. If found guilty, the grand master of DOS would spend the rest of his life in jail and on May. Seventh two, thousand, nineteen, a little over year after his capture. The cult leaders headline-grabbing trial was finally at hand. In Federal District Court. In Brooklyn, all the main players were in their places in obey sweater fifty, nine year. Old Keith sat by his lawyer, Mark Agnew Philo across the courtroom. The prosecutors deliberated in the Audience Section Tony, the tally sat taking it all in the last time. Tony saw, Keith he told her the next time they met. She would be dead or in jail. Yet there she sat a free woman as the rest of his life hung in the balance in her opening statement. Statement Assistant Prosecutor Tanya Jar characterize key. That's a charlatan and to scam artists to compare himself to Albert Einstein while quietly grooming many of his female followers to fulfill his sexual desires under the guise of spiritual empowerment mark. Agnes Philo Keith's high powered defense attorney naturally took the opposite tact. He claimed that all of Keith's actions were done in good faith. Agnew Philo asserted that Keith founded DOS as a sisterhood so that its members could make their lives better. Lastly, he focused on the fact. Fact that seventeen thousand people took nexium courses and many of them got something wonderful out of it. But the again -tarian picture of Keith Agnew Philip painted crumbled over the course of the six-week trial as the prosecution started calling witnesses to the stand over the course of a grueling three day testimony. Lawrence Saltzman took the jury through her relationship with vanguard. She told them how he promised her a baby. Then left her with nothing. Lauren also tried to explain the depth of her feelings for. For Keith saying he was my master, my most important person I respected and trusted him. I wanted to be like him according to Lauren. They had pet names for each other. She nicknamed Keith Dupe, and he called her Lorne slash forlorn because she was quote sad and suffering despite her suffering Lauren told the jury how her love for Keith led her to restrict her diet. Sent him up close pictures of her vagina three times a week and help him craft misogynistic rulebook for. Dos. However Lawrence stated that the worst thing she did at Keith's behest was aid in his imprisonment of Danielle. Flores Keith had confined Daniela to a small bedroom for two years. He did. So after the once promising Mexican student confessed that she had feelings for another man during her imprisonment. Lauren had been one of Daniela's only points of contact with the outside world however when Daniele Beg Lauren for her immigration papers so. So she could return to Mexico, learn denied her request she believed that doing. So would help keep see her as a responsible parent finally causing him to give the baby. He'd long promised her Lawrence sobbed as she explained her complicity to the jury while her testimony shed her actions in an unfavorable light it no doubt cast a harsher glare on Keith especially when the prosecution called Dan Yellow Flora's to the stand. Daniele confirmed that Keith had imprisoned her for two years while there was no lock on the door, the room is a cage in all. But name because as Daniele explained to the jury, her parents were staunch next sins. Keith told them that she had committed an ethical breach. However, he didn't tell her parents that her crime was developing feelings for another man instead according to journalist. Colin. Moynihan Keith, told them that Daniela's enforced solitude was to cure her of the sin of excessive. Pride? Daniela. Knew that if she walked out of the room without resolving her so-called sin, her nexium parents would abandon her. Eventually, however, even that fear wasn't enough to keep her with Keith so one day she walked out of a prison and went to confront the guru in person according to. Daniela. The smartest man in the world literally ran away from her and hid before she could pursue him. She was grabbed by a few of her fellow next NHS driven to the Mexican border and summarily dropped off. However, Daniela's is freedom was bittersweet after all her sister. Camila. was still in Keith's control. According to prosecutors Keith referred to Danielle as youngest sister as Burgeon, Camilla allegedly because he began a sexual relationship with her in two thousand five when she was only fifteen years old despite these claims, Keith treated, Camilo. With the same cruelty, he showed to all his partners. He harassed her to get her weight down to below one hundred pounds, and he pressure defined other virgins on tinder for him to have sex with WHATSAPP messages between the two also revealed that Camille up might have been. Keith's very first DOS slave in two, thousand, fifteen, he pushed twenty five year old come to find a slave of her own texting, I, think it would be. Be Good for you to own a slave for me that you could groom and use as a tool to pleasure me in an even more disturbing message. Key asked Camilo. If she agreed to take a brand, the young woman responded with horror writing. What do you mean branded like cattle? Keith sent back a flippant retort texting. Don't you WANNA burn for me. Camilla did not as a result Keith's initials were never branded into her skin however, the prosecution made sure to inform the jury of the many women within daas who had been branded. They also called witnesses to the stand to detail the many sexual abuses or stunned the women and Dos A struggling actress identified only by her first name Nicole had been recruited into DOS by Allison Mack. She told the jury about her harrowing experience being bound to a table and having an unknown person perform oral sex on her aspiring equestrian. Sylvie who had been recruited by Monica Duran burst into tears as she recounted being coerced into seducing Keith, and yet despite the Harrowing Tales conveyed by the Prosecution's many witnesses in his closing arguments. Keith's defense lawyer Mark. Agnew Philo. Insisted that all of the Gurus relationships were entirely consensual. Ultimately, it was up to the jury to decide and on June nineteenth two, thousand nineteen after listening to six weeks of testimony, they returned with their verdict, the twelve member jury of Keith Ranieri's peers unanimously. Guilty on all seven counts including racketeering forced labor, and sex trafficking. The. Decision was celebrated by several of Keith's victims according to times unions, reporting? Twenty. To tell he wore a striped jail shirt on the last day of her former tormentors trial of her outfit choice Tony said, I, wore this. So Keith would know what he would be looking at for the rest of his life despite her optimism. It's unclear how long Keith sentence will be at the time of this recording his sentencing hearing was pushed back due. Due to the coronavirus pandemic. What is clear? However is the utter degradation of Keith renew his empire. His Lucrative Company nexium was shuttered in two, thousand eighteen and well journalists prank PARLATO alleged that Dasa was still operational. The sado-masochistic Pyramid certainly, no longer boasts keith at its apex as for his right hand woman after posting bail of five million dollars, thirty-seven-year-old Allison Mack was fitted with an ankle bracelet and placed under house arrest where she awaits sentencing. Keith's accommodations are far less plush. He's confined to a six point, eight foot room behind bars even worse. He's known the world over as A. Criminal and Sexual Predator and yet despite the severity of his change circumstances, nothing about Keith's precipitous decline is especially shocking. When he was a little boy, his parents gave him. IQ. Test and told him that he was gifted. The act was akin to handing Keith a vial of poison from that moment on his inflated sense of self only grew to feed his insatiable ego Keith manipulated women into giving him their money, worshiping his brilliance at ignoring his many infidelities and yet even sleeping with scores of women in the lap of luxury wasn't enough to satisfy Keith, he needed to own them. So the self professed genius created dos a group in which he literally burned indelible evidence of his crime onto women's bodies in initialling dos recruits. He might as well have written the letter to the police saying I did it and yet Keith was blind to his folly. He wants compared to tally to Lucifer, warning her that our hubris would lead to her demise unbeknownst to the all knowing guru. He's describing Tony, he was talking about himself and like the fallen Angel in paradise, Lost Keith's actions landed him in a hell of his own making. Thanks again for tuning into cults, we'll be back next Tuesday with a new episode for more information on key through neary amongst the many sources we used. We found scarred the true story of how I escaped Nexium, the cult that bound my life by Sarah Edmondson with Christine Gas Bari. Extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of cults and all other. Other podcast originals for free on spotify, not only to spotify already have all of your favorite music. But now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like calls for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker. Just dream cults on spotify, just open the APP and type cults in the search bar. We'll see you next time. Colts was created by Max, Cutler and as a par cast studios. Original executive producers include. Max and Ron Cutler sound designed by Mike Romo's with production assist, inspire on Shapiro, carly, Madden, and Joshua Kern. This episode of cults was written by Abby Kelley. With assistance by Abigail Cannon and stars, Greg pulsing and Vanessa. Richardson. High Again Vanessa, before we go I wanted to remind you to check out the new parkhouse. Original Series Mama knows best every Monday joined social media icon Addison. Ray, as she goes to her mom sharing a coal for advice on all things growing up. It's entertaining endearing, and sometimes I opening I. Think you'll really enjoy it follow. Mama. Knows best free and exclusively on spotify.

Sarah Suspected Keith Keith Michael Blackman Lauren Keith Ranieri Meyer Sarah Keith Rainier Allison Mack Keith Raniry B. Sentate Tony Lawrence Saltzman Keith sue Keith Sarah Edmonson Keith Agnew Philip Lawrence Saltzman Agnes Philo Keith Lawrence Mark
Ep. - 186 - JOAO FRANCO FROM BELOW DECK MEDITERRANEAN

Reality Life with Kate Casey

42:35 min | 1 year ago

Ep. - 186 - JOAO FRANCO FROM BELOW DECK MEDITERRANEAN

"Welcome back to another episode of reality. Life with Casey hoped that you guys had a great weekend. Maybe you got a chance to watch a little bit of TV. I watched on Saturday night right after my date with my husband a lifetime TV movie now I have to tell you. I'm not really really a lifetime TV movie watcher but I had to watch it because Catherine Oxen Berg's book captive which I read in one sitting I was very very pregnant and read it in one sitting while getting my amniotic fluid checked and then went on to interview Katherine Oxen Komo. Show I had to see the movie based on her book of course the book is about her daughter. She became a member of up. This very bizarre. Colt called Nexium so the lifetime TV movies called escaping the next team called a mother's fight to save her daughter in an aired on Saturday night. Now I asked East off to watch it. Steve Friend of the show he and his wife Love Lifetime TV movies and he's probably he's probably the biggest biggest lifetime TV movie. Fan I've ever met my entire life and I had to see what he thought of the movie now. That review is going to be in the Friday episode but I just want to give you guys to give you enough time to do homework. So this is what I need you to do. Deep dive the book you can read it in one sitting is by Katherine Oxen Berg. Dan and I want you to go and Google the frank report. This website has everything. You need to know about the nexium cold. If you like to deep dive true crime cases forty eight hours mystery kind of style shows background and dateline stories this is right up your alley so go to the Frank Parr Lotto's website website the frank report do deep dive figure out everything that has to do with the coal and then circle back the wagon on Friday when we do a review and let me just leave you with this Peter factionally who was married to Jennie garth he plays Keith Rene and I will just say this his depiction of of a volleyball plane co-leader is a revelation okay. I'll just leave you with that. Now this week's episode I'm really excited about because I got a chance to talk to show how how Franco from below deck Mediterranean. This is a show. That's a spin off of below deck on the Bravo network and it chronicles the lives of crew members working reside aboard a mega yacht during charter season in Greece Croatia Italy and the south of France so people have mega money. They're I'M NOT GONNA. Go on your typical trip where they stay at a hotel and sit by the pool. They're gonNA rent these yachts for the week. They're going to have the people who work on the GATT. The yacht throw them stupid parties like white parties where everyone has to show up in white which by the way none ideal idea if you've got ladies on your trip and they've had their period that's that's the last color they want to wear when they're when they're on their period but they have these stupid parties and then they have ridiculous requests on their preference sheet which is what they want to eat it all the meals and apparently people are not really forthright about the real needs so they'll say gluten free dairy free and then they'll get wasted and ask for a plate plate of Nachos so the crew that works there. This is a show about them and this season has been chock full of crazy stories and there's this very handsome guy from Africa South Africa from Zimbabwe. Excuse me names well now. Every time I wash a show I can't believe how much he looks like a younger version of my husband and he has a Portuguese name so in the beginning I asked him about being Portuguese. This is totally personal and it's because I'm invested into the fact that he looks like a younger version of my husband. Who's well has insane personal story. He has overcome huge obstacles and and now he wants to become a boat captain and I'm just hoping that they do another spin off. Show called below deck with shout. Wow and we can watch him. Sail The seas with another group of crazy charter guests so again this week's homework you need to do deep dive on nexium coal and and please enjoy this interview with Sh- well well from below deck Mediterranean welcome to the show holiday held. The first question is strange one but I have dine ask you this is your family is your family Portuguese. my father's forty give my mother's Zimbabwean of English the same so I I'm off point Skis Hawkins Imboden. Can you speak Portuguese. I I used to I contact them. All I speak Portuguese in emerging meet it slightly different art the normal Portuguese. I went to Portugal for the first time about a month ago. It was absolutely amazing but not fluently. I'm starting to learn now. Beats different scratch reports in one for us. Tell me a little bit about you. I know you grew up in Zimbabwe. You know what was it like growing up. oh Barbara's really tough but it's it's such a a Khan busting feeling because as tough as it was it was awesome amazing upbringing you know we we had the liberty of living like real kids. I it says you know we we want to feel every day we had motorbikes and which are you know we just we lived a really amazing kids life but yeah a lot of hardships well as well of course we had major these weird what what they call war veterans obviously wants a political issue it started to houses and taking everyone out of their houses and farms so yeah it was. I mean it's it was up for now. it's for the most of it was an amazing must be on guard. I think that's and now I'm still God how you brought up but winger day. You think it's normal I mean I never left Zimbabwe in a while. This on top of southern Africa I five southern Africa hold is more or less the same we might list to Europe for the first time. I realized that aligns very different as far. I know insecure. I remember you told a story about your mom being yeah attacks. My mom is the most positive person I've ever awesome a lot and I say that time and time again the very next day we ought to just up in and forget about it because there were no police to take control. There's there's no one is no longer there really and it's all broken most. I guess you know they're never gonNA get caught. We knew that but at the same time politically we weren't on the other hand we were all at the time on on specifically they had come into to rob us. and I heard the screaming and I ran outside where in the house from the roof just get beaten. Ryan gave the gun to suitland because I was ready to shoot and they might stop me before I got to the gun and the put us into one room They Komo Szekely. My mom was bleeding everywhere. I grabbed her and she was like lying on top of me. they'll be to my step dad and my brother at the same time they hit me role role basically getting hit with the guns and they eventually pulled us all together and then through my mom my step dad and my brother in and closed going left my mama side and we oversee my. Stepdad's worlds are not going to die today today. I'm going. I'm going to do what I can and we grabbed the door and pull the Dole and the guys one guy with gunstone the flow and we'd just drive my mom's legs and drew into into positive and the backup we are pushed him out at all so you know we're very worried at that time that they had a plan for her you know and then that we went about five seconds and as we look at the we saw that their feet basically running out with the actor acton stolen vehicle and and and then we find the vehicle the next day if you sit down by complete chance and and yeah it's basically my mom had we've run next door and got someone to come and pick her up. I was in panic. She's eating everywhere and she almost passed out so they they granted rushed to the hospital and my dad had lost from his arm so my stepdaughter and my mom went to hospital and my dad rusty rescue to us in catching it happened but it's not a matter in Zimbabwe of calling the police. Don't call the police because that are not time for it to get us all that would want money money for for what they were and it's just it's a completely different abso. How old were you when this happened. I was sixteen sixteen years old. It was just before all my making the saints of Helplessness. I would never wish on anyone to feel and you know the thing is I think the biggest biggest the biggest thing for me is especially on the show. I had the producers often every every single detail about me that they're con- they're concert burst of you know and they'll say to me like dude. This is not right. How you've lived is not right and I'm like well. That's where we live and she she say you're. The one producer was like how do you how do you maintain your positivist. The United States and you know I've had I've got to as I'd rather have been through everything I've been to to get to where I am now and have seen everything because the person who has no is has not been able to see what I see you know and that's people don't realize it's such a simple thing. You'll five saints of if you if you have your five senses. You are one of the people in the world. How do you think that that has has affected your relationships in life do you. Do you find that it takes you awhile to open up. Absolutely I mean I think the people I I when I when I get point. We Open Up. People are actually a little bit worried. about me. I I guess because they believe that I normal after having been through that amount of stuff I was speaking to a lady eighty last night and it's a Ernie mentioned the one story about being wrong but we were roped about six or seven times in the one place where you had. I had to sue rollins that people I was twelve years old. We're not not at someone and did you when you shot. I don't know that dad run off it was a foster I I noticed that they were blood on all of the war because they jumped over a wall with razor wire so pretty good at the time there's some what had happened and they took a report on the left and that was it was nothing more to it. I ended up suits in assumption because I try to under the gun in the morning and it's a great job and try to force it so it's in a wink through my through my arm and then my mom's car window which she was upset about. At what point did your parents or did they ever think it at at any point we need to move. I mean if you were robbed six seven times. At what point did you just think we gotta get Outta here you. That's a tough thing is Kursk with our customer and we know that that's what the country is like unless you know anything else. Ignorance is bliss. You know you don't know how it is in a normal country and symbolic has an effect where people get drawn in and stuck to be honest like people. The Fox escaped to leave. Thank think that they have amazing like everything's fantastic and you don't like. We're not last two song says time. It took me the first. There's three weeks to actually understand that I wanted to be there because I was very against everything. I was like this is not how things should be. Wi- comedy wise laws in our comm- long stocks everything. Why don't you have my seat belts on. Why not you know there was signed me things that I was just not used to. I was against it until I realized supporter. was there for you know. People get stuck there so you don't realize you gotta realize that. Gates have a choice to leave and a lot of people didn't because if the economical crisis a Lotta people lost millions of dollars over matter of months and that's how they know no other went to the the way I see it. I mean I wouldn't want to go into too much detail about going to prison for four in South Africa. It was so many people that that had come back to jail and I asked what they're done and they were a serious crimes and they were released on that committed the same Jane crimes and came back because you know otherwise and I I feel that Zimbabwe's like a general sense. Do you ever wrestle with your feelings about your home country. There's every day. Do you feel like you're. You're cheated in terms of like a safe childhood. Absolutely I mean I would not change my solid world. my parents will they didn't come from money at all. when I say at all it was very very minimal and you know a day they struggle to get me through the best school in Zimbabwe and the thing is they are it's so contradictive addictive because we do have some of the schools in the world in Zimbabwe and and this is by facts is not just a makeup thing but we do have we have so much as far as wildlife so much as far as farming learning hawks actually serves as as a as a person without city life it concentrates how I feel about my country avery because so much pride in my country and at the same time I'm so disappointed that I cannot be delivered uh-huh because of economical issues that has so. Let's just jump to the future. Do I mean do you ever think of when you finally become a apparent when you're married and you become a parent. Could you ever imagine yourself raising a family in a place like Zimbabwe absolutely not there's no way in. Hell I'd raise my family bobby with the way it is now. There's no way you know. The other thing is that people may or may not understand. It's at foreigner coming to the Mommy. You just don't know how to deal with everything but because I've lived there. There's a sense of respect. Speak the local language very fluently. I'm one of the the only one to speak the language and they respect that in a in a big way and I respect them as well for it. You know it's it's a it's a matter of restraints and if you're by the people then you can get away with with living there comfortably and security you know. I I could tell you some absolutely gruesome stories of you know frings and haunted no sick parents on the people because they paid respect to what was going on yeah yeah. I mean a family up they know ways but bringing a family up in the same way as an outdoorsy life you know farm and you know that kind of stuff hands down to it. I would never bring up a family in the city so well okay so sometimes when I'm watching watching the show I I wonder if your life experienced kind of you look through life in a different. Lens some of Your interactions with the women you talk about your mom with such reverence and then some of the moments. I'm confused because you're it does. It's it's sunny. It seems like it's two different kinds of people so how help us figure out what's going on in those moments that really look. I think a lot of people beat around the bus. I say like I feel like where I've come from people in theory very arrangement with everything that I feel because that is one way to tell where the zoo you. you know fringe of the person there's no not or if you have a good relationship or if there's some way you can. I would be more than happy for anyone to serve early. Tell me what missio nine woman you know anyone because I know that I can either learned from it or disregard. As long as I have the choice and I think when I say things first of all comes off very haas and and it's it's kind of a sense of where I've been brought up and you know it's something that I've always done always been used to being that way and I do. I do very much the greatest things I stay in in ways that I shouldn't have said it but at the same time I never the great saying how I feel you know so I think a lot of people don't saying how to feel and it gives you a a wrong conception of like what who's someone is so as far as a verbal statement that I make I've I've I've been accustomed. I'm just saying verbal statements and I regret the way I say it It's just so difficult to to full to what I I'm thinking. It's difficult when it comes to respecting ladies especially like if they're in a situation that they can't handle I wa- aw one hundred percent my take the suit off of my back for anyone you know and I feel I feel like I it's hard to explain because the only realize it now Yoenis and especially after the shirt I realized Washington the example if the pot with Asia I I don't remember saying that I was dumbing. Jay's about knocking on my door so I really got river saying I brought. I WANNA say this and it'll be exclusive to you guys because it's never been said before. I had a major issue with Asia because he says something to me that touched me in a way that I was. I was passive in risk this you know I I didn't say anything to her because I didn't want to be brought up on this and obviously with experience. I've had something and I just I absolutely absolutely absolutely lost all respect for her immediately. After US author a couple of drinks she got a little bit upset more more and more upset about what what I said and then you know when she was eating with the mouth open deliberately and stuff but just got to me because we are a different different culture back home. I guess and it's difficult again. We faced with so many different cultures on a third and some people's arguments with Eli you know yes you work going but you also live together on my point is if you want a relationship with a person that work and you live with them. You need to maintain that relationship in were living environment. You know so I just it's I. I am conscious different. I know I am I can't help it sometimes and say what I do but I do immediately apologized for it and thinking or not shouldn't have said that let me bring it on in different way and I've been a lead per se back home for so many people that I have never been afraid to say what I feel and a lot of people respected before because some people you know took my advice openly and unchanged in in what is that they wanted without realizing because nobody told him as as far as physical abuse. I will not accept it in any way sliver from guys go. It doesn't matter so while we've been watching the show we've seen a fall in love and it was heartbreaking as announced started to see you get your heart broken. So how how do you kind of moved past. That doesn't make you a little bit more slow to date somebody that you work with you. Know be running the beginning before Brooke I had never dated anyone on earth and that was struck me in my mind and that's been on forever during school and everyone seems everyone goes against it so I've I've never been with anyone on this being on and it's for this exact reason kind of these yourself and your relationship because you're you're such in such confined confined spaces that it's guaranteed to happen that you know you get to nature of a son quickly that used to get the there's no honeymoon stage you know and at the same time what states I says as gentlemen or when fixed the ladies it it affects work and it it's not fair on each other to to do that to each other serve clear up until Brooke and with the like with the reason Brooklyn I were to start with was because it was just a Susan and it wasn't a permanent job so I took that risk between Brooks and toasty I black from the stock maintian mentioned that I want nothing to do with any relationships on more and I mean these are things that you weren't see because it doesn't create you know create the feel of the Sir but I had mentioned that I also mentioned supercrew very much that pollen lighter that because unlike Sir I I want her and she said that's not fair because I don't feel the same way for Collin and I said okay well as long as you point out to Colin back then. I feel that it's okay but until that happens I'm not going to be stepping on anyone's toes and it was not that you've mentioned something decline and she told me that she had and that was part of the conversation we had before we got together so you know there's there's a lot more to everything of course but I think the return return to work. I list you know. It's bobby and I went a little bit back. You know that's the thing that the tension has its own you so I went into the more more primitive win where you know there's there's just there's no. I don how expensive venting coach and learned I I kind of lost my way a little bit and then when she come to we we had one or two issues to start off with but we just we realized that we did did not know each other wedding off key to have this relationship we still can read on there because I believe that it works and I think just when not to mix it to are we gonNa do this. We're GONNA make it happen and I went back to you can and mentioned family and that was an amazing experience because I meant what it would be to be an a normal and civil environment with a normal family and you know it made me realize that I need to change some of my waist yeah well. That's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to spend your twenties and early thirties. Just dating you know two different people. You had to date a bunch of people to figure out the kind of person that you are who's the best match for you and you can't accomplish that unless you go out into to the world and you beat different people and you can imagine yourself out of your comfort zone so I that's what you're supposed to do so I'm learning that but in verse what's happened is from nineteen to twenty. I took on all financial all financial responsibility if he at home for myself my family and my sister and my brother and I sort of color and five of my friends who we we began a business together at twenty two I started the business and we did very very very well. up to the point where I was I had had a house I had five dollars. I had three cats. I had you know I got mad. They got well. My mom was Nineteen Inch Abbey and my dad was twenty true true so that in the back of my mind I want to young parents. I wanted you know I went to a young parents. because I enjoyed you know the company that I had with my parents within the theory very fast and then I'm hot on the back of my mind and then when I was there to Europe to France and it was on appeal not less perishable need at the break because after the country collapsed I basically lost everything that I earned and what we must do in most financially for my mom to stop paying for pets in South Africa says she could leave and at the end of the day I had to leave Barbara with a gold coins there called cruiser answer went on coins at you buy souvenirs and I could not live with money with all coins and I started again with a backpack back in France knowing absolutely nothing so you don't own me if I'm scared of anything and I said it with dot. I'm not I don't have a fear of anything think but I think I was most scared at that point and it was because I these responsibility for looking to my family responsibility for my friends and and I I don't know and in a place that works I just didn't know anything you know so I did it in reverse and now I'm starting to learn you know when and everyone says enjoy and stuff and I'm like I was. I was central that twenty to do some usually my my my point. I should have had oldest towards China. Let's yet long hostile to enjoy you know being liberal incidents where you can just. I can pick up my backpack and I can move to the next thing I know mad. There's so how in the world did they find you for below deck. How did they find you to cost you so basically what had happened. Work what I on the very second day that I arrived in France from Zimbabwe. I saw this outbursts on facebook and I pay no attention to it at all. I just thought of it and I was like Oh. That's pretty cool. You know maybe during the but I didn't. I didn't pay attention to and then maybe four days later. Someone had randomly texted me on facebook asking me if I was willing to put my hat so I'm I took onto and I was gonna tell you about and then basically we wade through all the stages up until the very end stage where I declined that because I was looking at a job on a on an extravagant in France with my brother in knowing during that I just lost everything I didn't want to take a risk of losing this opportunity to say that my career that being absolutely green not knowing hockey to can you know stainless steel anything so yeah so I took on the burden state and then they had basically I was supposed to be probably at that time and that was below dixies and and that had approached me every mid season for the next season for a year and a half and then the very last one I just signed on my birds and essentially the next guy honest if I put my name lasted lasted. Why not let's do it so yeah? That's that's what happened and I often often. I decided to do it. I think it was it was a week later that I'd moved to finance and I've done a Colson into. I've started the on on the in Italy. How how's the show change your life. It's it's been amazing but not necessarily I mean I pay attention to any I don't look for the change and if that makes some people tend to look for but I think more so in watching myself. That's what's changed turns me. I understand obviously with you know as I say eighteen. It's very real the time span that they have to search everything is very short so that one guy and with saying that like I see the points that I never saw about me and I'm like Shit Shit. I'm actually a big or maybe I should say that ninety two way myself and I'm thinking if I if that's who I had that's why I you know I think you know everybody. Has You know grew for change and it's it's it's been why not you know so at the end of the day. It's exchanged person to match. I mean even just just seeing seeing how I respond and react to certain situations. Russians and hollered tackle the situation. Dan You know that's what's changed mostly often and a typical day while you're filming is it's just you never ever sit down you. What time are you waking up. And what time are you going to bed. You know it's it's definitely hottest six weeks that I could possibly seduced we ever do and maybe I put that on myself because some people it's an APP that breeze I wanted to mention any names. I just put so much discretionary myself that especially this season. I wanted to make the biggest impact I could because I knew what I learned so I wanted to see what I've learned. When I watched the season again and I honest to God I think I maybe three hours three hours every day. At six weeks. Wow and then Colin seems to be the sweetest person that walked the earth and I love to see how I love to see how emotional you got when he suggested that he should leave the boat the friendships that you've made of the people that you've worked with on this show who who has really kind of changed your life as as really become a close confidante does the two people thank three people even and I'm not gonNA put breakdown for for the time that we've had to get rid of it was real and not for her to be so you know in learning what I did with Brooke definitely changed my life in the big good and bad you know we. L- We learned the lessons colon even just going to host us and you know long you know seeing his family dying and and spending some time with established and actually then you know the first totally you know flow since he was a baby. It was so humbling to see that people actually do that. You know for me. We've been moving houses. We can do everything I don't have anything for my daughter single thing and my my dad has a couple of little clay things that we may the firm which is really sweet that he's gone MOMS but I don't have anything I've kept because my life has changed in certain many ways that I'm not even close to that. Senate person and we've just seeing how you've been brought up and you know he is so happy with wary as what he's doing and the way it proves that with the right turns for it you can bring up an amazing person you know and the winsborough borough wrong. It's just seven hundred C so he's definitely changed my life in the Big West. We we speak every day and then who is the Third Person Sandy so sandy you know she believed me. She made a huge impact in my life as especially in my area I do I mean a little with a couple of the things she can saying online every now and then but I guess it's also just the the focus on social media and what people may think I just don't. I just thought it was a little bit if you look at the show where amazing and there's a couple of points that come up where she feels that I was condescending to her over the jetski vanity particularly because she's a woman and I wouldn't die like that but that's absolutely you know I would never that that that hit me quite a bit so you know over and above all of that the taste she's changed my life in huge why she got me the captions musician you know she believed in me. I didn't think I was taken of doing it and when I got to start doing it and it was single swim I go to the doctor to what I never knew I could do when she knew aren't at all times since changed my life in huge way I've become a lot more emotional and it's because I was such a hard sell from whom I I had no room to fail and I also had no move to sell weakness with all my friends around who looked up to me and my family he looked to be I I could break and I can genuine and Saturdays career time. I was on the book and you know I- hardened up after that I was like about this and then watching the saw aw I softened up again because I realized you know especially the company's on on on realized that actually affects us. It may seem like it doesn't and everyone loves prayers but one critical comments can really ruin that. There's some of how you think you are. You'll run personal feeling they are so I I mean I got real. It is and I do appreciate the people that did that change or not. Even the change changed to the real person I was on the show. They said you know we can see an online person and we wanna see that person and me. I think that was the best form form of an opinion that I got was exactly that you know my friends back home would always agree to whatever I did because they thought thought that I had hindsight to go towards that point like the thought that I didn't I was just been cookie arrogant prints and and whatever and I stay wings and it was so tough to break out of that cell to actually be humble and listen because I've said it before when you when you're speaking dudes and say no Komo and when you're listening learning so you know I mean yes. It's just it's any concerns must be so so. Where are you now. What's going on? I feel like I see a beautiful girl in your pictures issue girlfriends. What am I GONNA BE. Yes like give me the scoop what's going join on. I while we are I. It was just a coincidental meets. She's a hygienist and she did a AH cleaning and what we we weren't in any way looking for anything. It wasn't like hold on this could be the girl of my dreams free with Seinfeld and since eight months I think and she would dental ida and she's green tomatoes well. She's been through some some serious hardships she had a- long-term relationship in a year or two years ago and he's just on the same page. There's no Michi great teams. There's no system mature relationship and it makes such take different. we see every once every three weeks minimum she's in New York. I'm in Miami and I'm at the moment studying waiting for my courses for my office watch to some of the ticket Fortuna on Basal and I'm working to my canton ticket for three thousand vessel. I mean he knows knows applies to be after Dante you on so is do you think that this is a potential for a marriage or is that too early. Am I putting pressure on you. You don't want everything so far has been amazingly icon on icon slow. They happiness laws. You know so repugnant. We've had this time of park and each other to get to know each other really well and Dan. She's an incredible lady. She really really is I'm not I'm not even been biased. You just she really isn't a crazy lady to everyone and I she deserves the best and and I duNNo. I Dunno where it'll be honest. but we'll see see isn't a she's an American. She is American is on family. she's. GonNa Manian Okay Great on and York but her family is now and you do a tremendous amount charity work. tell everybody kind of what you've been working on and where they can find you like give us the so we we are you know what so so the photographer who took all the pixels underwater with shocks She said this is insane but listen. Would you be willing to do something for the hurricane relief and I was like I literally took five tip to sink in and I was like how let's do something and then she's like what can we do and I said well. Why don't we get some designated points. I I can literally speak about. Let's get it going because I feel that it nothing social media is absolutely nothing to me. This is a it doesn't bring anything to me except to be able to help people and with with this happening. I thought you know what why not. Let's let time make a difference because these are not. I'm not American and you know they're the closest point but whatever my back for wildlife I I mean I joined an anti poaching team back home and saving elephants. you know there was so much that we've done back home and I thought why why didn't I just saw on for how feel to test some living in your and yeah so we started. We must have an again just through social media. I had a which is a private ambulance company. did a hold of me and then like which we can possibly offer pain but but we don't have the finance for it so we started to go fund which is on my instagram at the moment is a complete detail where every saint is going and then so how can people follow you on instagram. We have an instagram. My Morrison is going on and we have to funding page. They're still otherwise eager to acute which is a gunfight me as well. We actually started to go find one of the Lens and one four the bugs art. Hey thank you so much to migrate guest while this week I would remind mind you guys have got a patriotic page P. A. T. R. E. O. N. DOT COM backslash. Casey and I'm GonNa give you behind the scenes of my show every week and tell tell you stories about my life etcetera you enjoying the facebook group reality life would casey just go to the search button on facebook and you can find us lots of funny really insightful people. We're talking about shows all week long. You can find me on twitter at Cape Casey. My instagram is at Kate Casey C. A. And don't forget to leave a five star. Star Review on itunes. I so appreciate all your great reviews. I get such a chuckle reading them and I again from the bottom of my heart. Thank you so much how great week uh-huh.

Zimbabwe Dan You facebook Casey Europe bobby Brooke Katherine Oxen Berg Africa Barbara France Catherine Oxen Berg Katherine Oxen Komo France Google Colt Steve Friend Franco
"I Really Don't Want to Be Here Right Now"

Whine Down with Jana Kramer

58:44 min | 1 year ago

"I Really Don't Want to Be Here Right Now"

"Beer global heritage in an unwavering dedication to provide products and services that make mobility safer more efficient and ECO friendly these offerings include all tire category Michelin is the world's leading tire manufacturer that dedicated to enabling mobility that sustains the economy and the lives of stakeholders the company has a rich one hundred twenty five two years ago it was two years ago and I it's it's so weird now thinking back to our conversation because I I remember premium quality for all things dynamic because stopping safely consistently matters the average family will stop and often emergency stop some twenty thousand times per year I can see why she was a great recruiter and I can see why she's a great whistle blow to she is the same passion and she's the one who when i Michelin unlike other brands promises to perform every time across every diaper run pickup dropoff and road trip Michelin unlike other brands promises there was quite high up and as far as owning a center in Vancouver and being responsible for bringing in I don't know maybe thousands of people but perform every time we all drive worn tires starting the day after we leave the showroom that's why Michelin supports testing worn tire braking performance so that drivers can make more than Edmonson I do I do yeah and okay so we did a movie together about Gosh it was a year and a half ago note of success program which was the customer facing company that she was a coach for and so yeah in the beginning she was big recruiter and I and it's okay Catherine I it's a fascinating story how before we jump into it do you know formed choices about how their tires perform down the road tires need to stop safely overtime consumers benefit from peace of mind knowing that their tires are designed to deliver reliable wet donated okay so I'm really excited because we have Catherine Oxen Berg in studio they continue to perform when the consumer's needs them wind down with Jana Kramer and Michael Khasan and IHEART radio in people's Choice Award Oh my God I did a a hallmark movie with her Christmas movie yeah and so I- i- instagram'd her I was just like hey 'cause I know that she is I'm good you know but then I was just like oh my gosh it's all at all connected well yeah she's very charismatic she's released so sweet terrible person and am I didn't really have anything to do with the organization I stopped taking classes parolee in two thousand and thirteen but my daughter stated and she remained a coach and became very involved and talked all about being in his nexium Kalt and she has the book her book that just came out and so I just didn't know how big or small that world was and if you knew of her or I was told about what was really going on which would have been April of two thousand seventeen in that my daughter had probably been branded I met with Sarah and she showed me her brand you know if 'cause your daughter was the one that was in the nexium colts correct that is correct yeah I definitely met Sarah through nexium when it was cold executive shen even in a worn state Michelin performance every time consumers should have confidence in knowing about the breaking performance tires in Warren conditions throughout the life of a product her her saying some kind of weird weird weird things but it was it was off and then all of a sudden I saw her on dateline and I was like and that's kind of what I was like I felt like she was trying to bring me into something so I remember being like it was just very strange and I was like no I'm not really like but she and I were in the first New York Times article that broke the story originally and got the attention of the government and then I went ballistic on a warpath with from one media outlet to the other until okay so let's just start over then so okay let's start from the beginning so you you and your an honor Blatt right no it's not on her but it's like on Earth Pelvic Area Halberg area front and has to date is Tony Brown that I've actually seen start a business Sarah Edmonson was one of the coaches in that first clause it I've done a lot of self-help it didn't seem particularly original my daughter loved it from the beginning I think would hooked me a little bit was they did these emotional processes that UNHOOK reactivity or what they considered any limitations that you have other of these well known trainings whether it be esther landmark or scientology I think that he stole a lot of stuff so daughter went to this class I'll let you kind of started off you how did it start innocently it was a self help leadership program my daughter's about of and what's actually happening is there unhooking your gut and they're starting to dismantle your personality but it feels good and a lot of these large group awareness at one point Catherine did you kind of read between the lines and realize this isn't exactly what we signed up for and get yourself out and then like why because I just took classes and there was a huge difference between somebody who is taking the occasional class versus somebody who signed up for the approach path which Sarah was a coach and they those people were taking this program seriously and they are the ones that they considered to be really dedicated to improving humanity as those warning signs. If I'd recognize that they were dangerous voces just thinking okay so these are quirky people I would have run away so you know but my my daughter got very involved and there was a huge emphasis on recruitment and they were making a lot of money off people findings us very similar techniques. I think that probably Keith raniall though he says is material was proprietary and you'd sign and da I think most of it was plagiarized from would've never expose my daughter to anything dangerous this is just set I'd I was naive I didn't really understand how these groups work and I didn't understand the process of indoctrination and how easy it is to kind of hijacked somebody's mind without you being aware so was India branded India was branded you I didn't intervention without which was made two thousand was there such a discrepancy in time between when you get yourself out and then getting your daughter Indio knows an interesting thing that you say get getting myself out I never really considered myself in joyful spirit I didn't know that this these were symptoms of her actually having her personality dismantled I never really got in I just took classes and then I'm like you know what this is weird but the the reason I wrote a book which came out actually lost you was because seventeen and I point blank author of she'd been branded and she didn't lie which was strange because everyone within the organization is taught to light everybody on the outside so and taking on a cult persona and that's what happened she slowly but surely started to change and it was so slow it's such a slow drip that it wasn't until it was became a little more distant she became a little bit more serious she felt more burden to me but it could have been you know okay so one of the heads of the organization in her family and she was trying to find her own way so a lot of the symptoms that are like wow I feel like my daughter anymore doesn't have that kind of brightness and the I think that she was getting like what were the things that you saw that were that was off okay so in the beginning she so isolating her creating a new family separating her from her loved ones helm in assisting she break up with her boyfriend then involving her twin late that I realized that they'd taken her and that she'll what he's taking her what what what does that consist of well again steps I becoming a coach Slave Mazda group that supposed to be a female leadership program within nexium but actually it's a recruiting funnel for sex for Keith it's based on four seven in the organization recruiting people making it her life then moving to Albany New York which was the epicenter of the group so slowly but surely the years go by she's living in Albany she's given up her possessions in La she's given up all her friends and she's leading this new life in service of Keith Ranieri and suddenly she's Alice on a slave Mazda hierarchy and allison mack her Mazda and she's being forced to recruit slaves she's probably branded she's on five hundred calorie a day diet she sleep-deprived not Like there was a big emphasis on on the the doctrine and on on Keith Rainier who they called the vanguard so me up mid April two thousand seventeen and said you have to save her and I'm like Okay from what and she said well she's involved in this secretive mm-hmm Allison Mack's slave and you go what the hell happened and it wasn't until like I I'm apparent why because I don't want to kind of I don't want to expose my plan to bring her back because I was afraid she would come back and then I fail at the end She signed a lifetime bow obedience to Keith into the organization like she just she read off this list of things and I'm like how does self-help turned into sex trump several kids and really proud of the way that parent is that I try and let my kids make their own mistakes so try not to interfere not to be helicopter parent well first of all the hierarchy started to try and use her to find ways to sue me and compromise me in silence me edgy towards you or is she is she you know she okay now are you guys ok where more than okay and I think one of the first things that she said to me that I knew meant steepen the rift and made it harder for her to reconcile with me does she still have that negative like my maternal instincts just went haywire and I I did everything I could to get her out what danger did you see what danger do you know that she was in a defector eventually and I see that she's recruiting other young women and I'm able to stop them going back to Albany from being branded thank God so used you stopped her like she she against me so that I was enemy number one which made it very very hard because then everything that I did when I had to go and expose a publicly just that she was healing after thinking that I was like public enemy number one was she told her best friend my mom was willing to have everybody hate her then doing something good and noble and branding was character-building she was completely brainwashed at what point after invention like how long after that were you finally able to get they told her that I was suffering from Munchausen by proxy disease that I was a psychopath that everything I was doing was trying so they brainwashed her specifically Nancy Salzman who was higher than Sarah told me we'll India's individualizing and so you I could I could I could buy that no she was a young woman and she was separating from me. La Pretending Elizabeth Day I felt horrible at never been duplicitous with my daughter I mean we have such we had such a great relationship found out from my daughter at the same time her hair was falling out looking at how does that even happen and so the first thing that I did was I went to see a specialist in an intervention I brought it back through her okay a year and two months so that she just left in and you didn't talk to her they took her back and they started to Burgers GonNa talk about signs parents should look for in their kids things she saw and things you should look for if you've got kids at are concerned your kids are going down a bad path agenda period in a year so I'm getting messages from her that she's having physiological problems icon tell her that I know saw it saw like she an intervention she she saw what was happening not quite the quite the opposite she thought I was crazy and overreacting and that she was look what we need to discuss okay can you please have eight look it won't take long I promise now see you're almost an adult and that means your body while it's it's changed Ah let's eighteen boy honey please sit down we need to have a talk oh mom I mean I was just about three now you're about to do dear okay that's actually it's thank you it creates a protective layer on the water surface that traps nasty orders in the bull and releases a very pleasant fragrance into the air or here's and I wear scrubs every single day and anyone who works in a hospital knows how no scrubs ever fits you regardless of the size ah really adhering to giving them the dignity of their own process of adulting but when I found out that she was actually in physical dangerous the moment that I so I looked online years ago found figs in it's unbelievable they have so many different styles you know tapered fits bigger fits the colors textures material all that stuff it's unbelievable and I remember I started wearing them in hospitals and I had people even at work there that I really eighteen percent off your first purchase by using our code wine get ready to love your scrubs head to wear figs dot com w. e. a. r. 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Dot Com I knew and she said that that she understood that I was willing to go to any lengths to get her back that was the depth of my love absolutely let's take a break when we come back Catherine Oxen throughout our entire reproductive lives sex by Lola is the next step in their mission to become the first lifelong brand for women's bodies the sex by little line is available for subscribed now offer sex products to sex lola is a line of gynecologists approved sexual health and wellness products lubricated condoms personal lubricant and cleansing wipes designed I threads initiative fix gift cards are available so next time your doctor nurse dentist or dermatologist or even pediatrician saves the day tell them thank you by sending them some figs I'm telling you they will appreciate it so whether you're one of the awesome humans at works in healthcare or someone who wants to say thanks to the deserving folks fixes going to make that easier by providing you with me aw well becoming an adult means new experiences new situations smells and it can be awkward to bring up but you need to use protection Aubert look like I'm an enter our code wine at checkout is a female founded company offering a line of organic cotton tampons pads and Liners Air Wick VIP pre poop toilet spray well unlike aerosols that you use after you number two you spray air wick VIP before you go so it creates and they're not comfortable at all don't breathe you're going to be hot all year round because it just knob readable material and it's not comfortable to wear but you just have to wear them it's what you do spring grove okay well it's true okay you know when I first met your father he thought I didn't poop for like three years ochre Bar mom don't forget the Air Wick. VIP Pre poop toilet spray. I think if I had known that the prefrontal Cortex of a young adult doesn't fully develop until they're twenty seven so their ability to in foremost for Women Lola has built a brand that is committed to creating transparent and trustworthy products at encouraging candid conversations about the experiences we as women have in a thirty when you subscribe that's mypillow Dot Com enter Jannah thirty for thirty percent off your first month's Corruption Milo Dot com and enter Jannah thirty can you can add to your period subscription so everything is conveniently delivered on your ideal schedule whether it's condoms cleansing wipes are tampons. Lola makes your month easier do you have any any kind of I guess advice for any parents out there that have you know these young adults predatory group like this and what to look for and what to avoid and a lot of those warning signs are actually like there's a road map in my book that makes it very hard and and do more due diligence and I would teach them about predatory tactics whether it be an abusive relationship world there are predators there's people these are the consequences this stuff actually exists in this world at what age would you consider having those discussions going back again with your kids to make decisions cognitive faculties actually aren't fully developed I would probably be more mindful about what they got involved which thoughts are on the edge of like ten to twelve you can you know it's really hard conversation because you don't want them to be suspicious or cynical and let's see and going off of that do you think you know 'cause I feel like as again we're parents to two young kids you want everything to be like butterflies and rainbows right especially early fool to understand like if we expose wet weather it's an r Kelly you know how these predators operate in plain sight once you expose their playbook which is John in your experience raising multiple children what's that age that maybe you sit them down and have these discussions where look there's bad people in the other people I was Melissa Age four I I don't know if it's a personal decision like who your kids children that are kind of going off and having their new experiences I don't know something to watch out for that may be looking back you might have missed her you wish you would have done I don't know you know just assist with that would be a bridge you get those talk about figs so it's been unbelievable and every time you shop at figs they give scrubs to healthcare providers in need around the world through their threats you're never caught without something you need when you need it I'm a big fan of Lola and I love the convenience of it so for thirty percent off your first month subscription visit Milo Dot Com and enter Jeff what else did that entail multiple like abuses against women and Sir Okay I'm going to be the MOM is time honey you're going to be teen girl the organization because the level of self hatred that it was fostering that women were able to then hurt another woman in the cleaning out or an Amazon before jumped on this podcast with John we started doing things together I was in the medical field and I did medical device sales for for a couple of years slim then our kids are not gonNA fall prey in the same way be Obata group or be at an individual the kind of work the same way absolutely you know that is a another great question and I think that's personal choice because I think you start the minute that they interface with they're gonna be interacting with and what you tell them at what age and what they can comprehend so maybe in simple terms when they're younger and then when they're able to think cognitively I mean they were desensitized to the point that violence against women was was encouraged that's very frightening yeah but it started awaiting sentencing has he owned up to any or is he that psychopathic just thinks that what he did was fine you WanNa hear the thing that's so good Osman Tell Sarah Edmonson the only way a woman can build cell can bill self worth is through humiliation so I would say this was a very very yup I think that's coming out this Saturday has it been hard for you to be in the limelight in this way very fine line but the world is not a safe place and people don't have your best interest and that's tough to break that to your kids oh so I was sitting in court during closing arguments and I know that he made his chief counsel say this to the jury the he was basically saying that the to funneling system for him that's how sick it was and he's obviously in jail now he is definitely in jail without bail he needs a windy it's called captive mothers crusade to save her daughter from a terrifying Kalt is available now and you're actually going to be on the true Hollywood story too anything for parents were parents of two young kids but there's something to look out for and there's later years that's a great question US witness this woman sylvie who had accused him of rape basically he's like well he keith gave her her first orgasm not like that so I'm just they just they just get in and they just totally brainwash you well you have to look at it from two standpoints the epicenter mm-hmm so and I'm sitting there going okay wait a minute are you really trying to say that he's a good guy 'cause because he gave him uh I mean he's a danger to society this guy so you have your book came out last year right what but that's really what was going on this was all about his as about power control in his self-gratification everything that was designed the whole program was thing in real time then I wrote it for India wrote it for my daughter because I figured if she read it she would wake up and then it helped her wake up and then when you say this the sex slaves and slavery was was adjust sex trafficking and sex slavery what other kind of really the leader as having sex with twenty women and that potentially anybody who walks through these doors is a is a recruit to become a sexual partner for him you're not told what it means to be a woman a woman and it was deeply embedded into the curriculum the deeper you got in the more misogyny was revealed till you have women like Lawrenson I am I find actionable ways to to counteract that so I I went full force into getting her I felt responsible for story and is it to raise awareness or is it a is it a a coping mechanism to originally I wrote the book because I was afraid to go hardback came out last August and then paper that came out this July with an with an extended chapter about the trial and reconcile reconciling with my daughter and this cult the Keith Rene had harm and he was rotating twenty women this is not how they present themselves this is not what I was told when I walked in the door to take classes you do how is India you know dealt with the healing process for all of us it's been them intensive I think for any getting around I felt responsible for getting out and it's about being accountable is apparently you're not can't be blamed for everything but wherever you can help we are absolutely in do I know again just relating back to US having kids in our daughter like she doesn't come early on this thanks Catherine guys take care the holidays there's no better way to get into the you know after that it's to help other family members who are going through or what I went through I hope nobody goes through what I went through and to prevent it from happening it was a lot of things that she she met a lot of people who gave her a different perspective and that perspective sort of shattered the cult persona my personality is immediately yes I felt guilt that I had introduced to this program but I'm the way that ideal without is that I behind going through what you've been through with India did you have to overcome those feelings of guilt did you put a lot on yourself initially like throughout all this process and yes to raise awareness because I think these these predators hide in plain sight and the more you you shine a light on their tactics the the easier it is the save the safer wait sentences as well as maybe some of her classmates right and so John and I put it on ourselves like we feel guilt where we're like are we not doing enough arena doing something right where she's a little you'd have to ask her that I mean 'cause I'd like to think it was me but I don't think it was I think it was with some television and music's most beloved stars including Marie Osmond Kyla Pratt Melissa Joan Hart Kim Fields Kelly Rolan Hillary Burton and so many more treat every that is a process and this has been lots of therapy what was one thing that helped her the most she think Gosh being vulnerable and you know you're obviously your words and your story are going to help a lot of people and hopefully you know yeah however get your book too because I mean it's it's gave her Jesus so that's the level of of self awareness that this I mean to me he's like he's a lost cause and if he ever comes out you're still under the influence of the doctrine so it takes a lot of work to unravel what was done to you and to reclaim your ability to think critically what's up guys what's happening Mark Eastern are you there I'm here eastern is is once you apply the policy genius team will handle all the paperwork and red tape and policy genius doesn't just make life insurance easy they can help also with finding the unfortunately not just a fascinating made up story you know it's real and something that you guys have been through and others are probably going through right now so hopefully this will be the first you know look into it I'm sure it wasn't what you thought would ever happen so why did you why did you want to write the book why did you WanNa come out and do the you know the buddy this is the thing that people don't understand you can't leave a cult and move forward you're still trapped in like it's in your head as they've changed the way you think Smith Spirit with a warm crackling fire time with family holiday Romances Winter Wonderland in new lifetime holiday movies twenty four seven all day everyday starting October twenty fifth with more than one thousand hours of Yuletide themed programming and sixty plus days of holiday movies on lifetime it's a time to kick up your feet cozy and comfortable and enjoy it's a wonderful lifetime fighters they cobwebs and Jack Landers but if you've got a family you might be dealing with something a little scary right now shopping for life insurance if the idea of looking for life insurance intimidates you try policy genius dot com policy genius is the easy way to shot for Life Insurance Online in minutes you can compare quotes from top insurance to find your best supposed Keith renewing on these crimes that was ultimately my first reason for doing it because he hadn't been arrested when I was reading my book as I'm writing the stories unfolding so it was at home insurance auto insurance and disability insurance this schober take the scariness out of buying life insurance with policy genius Gooda Policy Genius Dot Com get quotes forefront quiet and let you guys go please tell me about you it was going to drop the ball because people had brought evidence for decades and nothing had ever happened so I thought what if what if my book is the only resource that collects information to see in a blind minutes you can do the whole thing on your phone right now policy genius the easy way to compare and buy life insurance raise as well as mobility experiences through roadmaps phone APPs Travel Itineraries enlight style guides not just a tyrant Michelin drives innovation integrity and they like Christmas and make lifetime your destination for new holiday movies twenty four seven starting October twenty fifth how lean is on the way which means it's time to break up the rubber like a watching her blossom was really beautiful and coming back to herself why I just appreciate you coming on here and sharing the story and Assulin when we last left we had a discussion about Mike trip to Mount Kilimanjaro has there been any further discussion on that no we got other stuff then also the you know the help to get out so reprieve shit you thank you thank you so much both of you and listeners don't forget to watch each Hollywood store only with other podcasts as we speak he's run around this building like crazy awesome go team go how are you guys living the dream Yeah I just really want to talk about mark today there's nothing there's nothing interesting about me I promise you honey nope I really don't WanNa be here right now so I talk about it be my guest Michael I know mark would love that when you mark how I think I you know I just want with best for all of us in have gotten that vibe actually we were a heart's on our sleeves work we can we say it's a blessing occurs I mean and really majority of our conflicts were around day-to-day marital issues situations pretty well handling triggers pretty well talking things out where it really felt like we were building a lot of forward momentum so this was a wrong number this was an old at this this is not me I get out of here and delete block done all with the intention stage where large bids top off message from female with we'd ride underneath saying Oh let's try to meet up this time here something like that text message from this number I don't recognize open it up it's a picture of a female and like a mess and so the part of me that one in this situation was like this is the past coming back up I don't want any we've Jim I have really had a good run recently like not a lot of pass stuff coming up we've been handling I'm sure people deal with this so all right here's our give the gist of it text messages cured of it I talked to my sponsor usually every Monday morning because I know where he's going I know where he'll be in your brain to you and she handled it well she really did and the situation Saturday even though I consciously had that dialogue with myself saying I know what I need to do here I was terrified to do so which was because I just didn't want any part of it none of it and so then you is to go get John pull her aside and say hey I do see this I don't know what the hell it is relation yeah but it wasn't anybody I knew Oh and so I see I'm like okay I know the right thing to do he on Saturday on Saturday We had some friends in town brag about to go out for a date night I received the I started kinda rationalizing my head I'm like me and we're about to go out to a date night like two other couples like in the other end on the other side I'm like relation nearly identical and I brought it to Jonah said exactly pretty much that hey I got this I don't know what the hell it is by just but I just think that you know something like this has happened happened like a year ago when when when we were in L. A. Very similar and I understand and I truly am empathetic to the fact that her seeing something that was deleted that wasn't in yesterday I don't know what inspired Jana but she looked she saw my Apple Watch and saw in Genoa chime in after I'm done talking definitely about this is I was like look I need I don't WanNa bring this up now I don't any Puerto Right now like a hot potato I didn't even want it and which again which is how this same situation happened like a year ago none at all and the only thing I can think of an how this person even have my number was almost eighteen months difficult to navigate you have no idea who this person was not not we discussed and agreed on so a lot of stuff comes up for her I lost I've comes up for me out to her tension by me and healthy way boundary is extremely triggering and yes boundary do not delete things something that we have mutual go when I had my relapse house reaching out to numbers of a plethora of numbers you really WanNa talk about it I mean go for it already allergists doubt there might as well keep it on a roll and it's way a couple session about it this morning and it's just it's one of those things that's just only text message on there so when she compared to my phone she thought I was just being sneaky the leading it and so it's just it just sucks because it's just as soon as we feel like we're hitting a good discuss these things handle these things and it's beyond I can get a hold of him I wanNA talk to him and go from there with all intention of of branch Gina Lenin of the situation toner why I deleted it which is understandable but not what John and I agreed on on how to on hurtful to see Gina hurt and upset and field a good you know patch it's a slight my path behaviors my past actions come back to haunt me and then because I didn't hand here's the situation and this is I mean I tell you well we give these listeners some stuff yeah it's real good my heart on the and then I texted the number where I called the number and then I texted it and it was like and then like the messages away in the way I know I had to made it even worse so thinking was we're going out for a date night it's going to be happened again I'm such a idiot and I immediately called my best friend and I just was like shaking crying outside king floor is really good to monster under silly now I know this is really good stuff great things have been so good with US lately I don't want to trigger her in any way yeah and I think this is so not me I just don't want any part of the the things that she feels because of the things that I've done in the

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ACS (Part 2): Mark Geragos and Blah Blah Blog

The Adam Carolla Show

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

ACS (Part 2): Mark Geragos and Blah Blah Blog

"Thanks for listening to the Adam Corolla show on podcast one. It's the final days of mattress firm semi annual sale until Tuesday gift huge savings of up to five hundred dollars. Our top rated mattresses that's more than fifteen beds with four star rating storewide like our fan favorites sleepy's firm Queen mattress. Now just to ninety nine you won't find deals like this anywhere else. But hurry in this halen's, Tuesday, your budgets riches further at mattress firm. Restrictions apply. Out of participating locations only for offered until says it matches from dot com slash sale. What's your box delivers? One hundred percent grass-fed and finished free range organic chicken. Heritage breed, pork and wild cot sockeye, salmon direct to your door on a monthly basis. All products humanely raised and never give an antibiotics hormones taste is unbelievable. Each box comes with between nine and eleven pounds of meat and noth- for twenty four individual meals. We love it. We use it. It is scrumptious and got tell you that sockeye salmon is a beautiful addition to the butcher box family free shipping anywhere in the US except for Lasca in Hawaii. No commitment. Cancel anytime. New subscribers get the ultimate breakfast bundle to packages, bacon, and two pounds of free sausage. Plus twenty bucks off their first box butcher box dot com. Enter Adam you won't be disappointed. Vinnie loves it. Dr drew loves it, butcher box dot com and enter adamant checkout. Gain. All those crazy. Gene. Trouble. G g. The news with Gina grad this half of the show brought to you by lifelock in Toronto, simply safe and Taran geiko dot com. Yes, Gina well. The next time parking enforcement officers chock the little Marc on your tire. They may actually be acting unconstitutionally all this. Yeah. Now before you get excited. It doesn't affect us yet. A federal appeals court ruled Monday that shocking tires is a violation of the fourth amendment. So the case was brought by this girl. Allison taylor. She's a Michigan woman who the court describes as a frequent recipient of parking tickets, and it's always the same officer officer. Whereas it Tabitha Hoskins wrote her all fifteen tickets a three judge panel of the US court of appeals for the six circuit unanimously. Agreed that shocking tires is kind of trespassing and it requires a warrant can I say this? Parking enforcement. Like, if you, you know, the government's constantly trying to drill them down on the pay gap at an equities, and you know, the haves and the have nots and their concept trying to level the playing field and for that they're not going after the poor Mexicans are working the leaf blowers. Even though polluting everyone's lungs, including there's waking up and everything like that. I get it. But they simultaneously would like to raise the price of gasoline feel flying f eighteen the like the price of gas and they've tripled down on their parking enforcement shit parking enforcement fucks up poor people badly, and the reason it fucks up poor people badly as a they don't got sixty one bucks or eighty six bucks one hundred ten bucks to pay it. But be I haven't got a got the embarking tickets in rich because I have. A driveway. I have a spa I wouldn't give parking. I have a spot with my name on I park in my garage. When I go home, I don't park in front of my house. I don't have to worry about the street sweeper. I don't drive a van and go back to be carpet van is in the middle of the night and park on the wrong side of the street. I don't work doing earthquake rehab in downtown parked my truck, and then have the street sweeper come by between noon and two I don't deal with parking tickets anymore. I also do not deal with getting shit toad or getting stuff fine or tickets or whatever. Because when I go to century city to take a meeting now, I used to go to century city to to paint commercial buildings to paint lawyer sweets inside Mustang Navajo, white. I'd ride a motorcycle the parking for the day was like nineteen dollars back then I was going to make sixty three bucks for the day. I couldn't come. Cut out a third of my tecoma part. I'd parked by the side of the building off on the other. You're forced by the cost of the goddamn parking. Wherever you go downtown century shaded winter of to kind of look for alternative places park. You don't pull up in front of the comedy club. And valet your poor neighborhood. You gotta go into the neighborhood. The neighborhood had sixty one signs on one post. They just keep adding fucking addendums to this thing, you are not reading at sixth grade level. You're staring up. Maybe English isn't your first language, and you're just looking up at this never ending. She of signs into the night. Like, we have a what permit and no between six AM six sunset and streetlights come on or somewhere between Hanukkah and Passover. There's no bub-bubba then oh, your tires worked turned into you take fucking poor people, and you gauge the shit out of them. And then. You choice you can either pay money to the city that you don't really have. And some of these parking tickets are day's work for a lot of working poor folks or you can do what I did which is never pay the shit and try to get on with your life. But at some point, they'll get you. And then you'll oh Allott, and you don't have it, and I was actually taken to jail not prison, but I was taken to the north Hollywood olden tank. Like, I got arrested. I got pulled off my motorcycle. I got put in the car, and I was taken to prison, by the way, rich, man. Poor man, somebody puts a seatbelt on for you. I. Pekar the deer not a middle class problem right there. I guess what else ain't free the toy ARD? Control and those poor poor people, and again, I don't get parking. Now. I don't get parking tickets because I'm sort of wired like okay, check the sign, but I have money for the valet have money for the parking lot money for the meter. I have a driveway. I have a garage. I have a parking space at work. You don't get them. If you took I guarantee, you know, Bill Gates and pick me to Jeff pays I guarantee you Jeff Bezos gets less parking tickets year than a guy who's waiting in line at the Home Depot to jump in the back of someone's truck to work as day labor. I guarantee basis I'll bet you basis has got a parking ticket nine years. Bet you between having people do your bidding you go pick up my shit bring into my house or whatever the groceries ready. You just don't get your car parked and ballet. Yeah. The pillars of poor people parking in LA. We've all experienced number one getting up early to move your car because it's street cleaning restrictions something after the hour. Our that and ten parking gotta get up early to let the roommate out gotta let it barely girlfriend out or whatever it is the tandem parking everyone. Everyone of shares experience danton parking at work awful. I I had act I moved in an apartment on Franklin old apartment on Franklin on the on the hill part between Highland and whatever. And no parking like building from the twenties. You know, there's no parking, and you could only park on the street, and Franklin course, the meter maid would come between six and eight after meter maid came between eight and ten I'd be gone because I had to do construction it'd be my car, but because they come and then you'd come home that night, and there was only parking on the side where the meter maid. And they'd right? You tickets weather three cores. Of the time the street sweeper never the street sweeper never came between. Sometimes it would never come. They'd still. Right. You ticket. It doesn't matter. One of the biggest longest arguments. I got into was when I was doing earthquake rehab and down on Normandie, and western and all that junk, it was the same deal bunch of old apartment buildings. None of the old apartment buildings had like subterranean parking. If you build up -partment building today or commercial office space or anything. They just have for every thousand square foot of commercial office space, you need three parking spaces forever unit. You need to parking space. Whatever it is back, then it was fifty units zero parking spaces. So everyone's just out on the street, and they do this thing where it's like between noon and to every Wednesday and everybody who's working on this job would have to drop whatever they're doing that have to go out to the street have to shift your scatter move your car around at one point. It was like, oh between noon and two and it was like one fifty one or one forty eight but fresh wet tracks were on the street where the street sweeper gone, and I pulled right in behind it and parked on the fresh wet tracks fucking meter maid came out, and he was like you're getting ticket. And I'm like, we're working here, man. And he's like you're getting ticket. And I'm like this street sweeper went by and he's like that's the whole point park in between noon to and I was like, yeah. I know, but it's four the street sweeper you have this big window, and he went by and he's not coming back. So can I just park here and go to go to work, and he's like, no, I'm giving you a ticket? And it's like the only time I ever did the I want the name your supervisor. I wanna call this person and tell them just who's working for them because this is now starting to bleed into harassment. I you good. We cleared out street. Sweeper had a clear shot at the curb fine. Now, they're gone. And we gotta get back to rehab earthquake work for the city. And this is a while we're being harassed at this point. I think the guy kind of backed off. So I recall, but anyway, parking tickets really effect for people, and even if rich people got parking tickets Eighty-one bucks is nothing to rich people, and it's a fortune to poor. But you don't the real sad truth is you don't get them when you make money dark taxi. We didn't know I've literally had a panic attack trying to run to my car to get there before the streets lever. Right. And it's the only thing the city does officially well. This is a little bit validating and satisfying to hear because this US court of appeals. They they said that marking tires was to raise revenue not to protect the public against a safety risk, obviously, we know that. But it's nice to have it in writing. By judge the decision of the six circuit though, that is four states, but most of us aren't in Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky and Tennessee. Also. Also, I would also add this addendum, which is any meter or any street parking where there's more than four and a half people sleeping on the sidewalk by your car null and void anymore. Yeah. You can't hostile can't come up to me and start talking about. My my front was in a green loading zone or the meteor it expired, four minutes earlier or check the sign. You don't have a permit with whatever. And this guy's bathroom. There's a whole gypsy tribe their tribe, and they're sleeping in their own flop and the right next to my car, we really can't step over them and get to my car and in terms of okay. So I'm thinking about like clear at the airport. Right. You pay an exorbitant of money, but you're west through the line people pay extra for that convenience forward thinking, let's just say L A or any major city. Wouldn't you pay out of you certainly would a thousand dollars a year just be able to park any meter feed to be there just pull up in park, well sort of but as I think about again with me. The meters. It's like I go to Burbank airport. I drop it off at the valet. We go to we go there. Like, I don't hit meters in my in my day. But I give what you're saying. Some some version of like five hundred bucks a year parking meter for up to an hour. Yeah. Everything to do with cars the box everything to do with cars is a rip off. And it's a rip off because they got you. They know they got you like when you go to LAX, and it's like it's thirty three dollars a day to park, and you go you pull in at eleven o'clock on Tuesday. And then you pick your car up one o'clock on a Wednesday, and they're like two days parking. You're like no now twenty six hours barking like that's two days. And what are you supposed to do go? And you know, I'm gonna walk Mark office. You'll see I'll be I'll be the guys walking with purpose. When I come back. I'm going to be angry like tired of six I'm not driving. They got your shit you pay for it. It's the same way. By the way, there is no. No other timing that really works that way. Like again, the the because they got you by the fuck and short heirs when you when whenever I've had anything impounded. I've had stuff impounded at ten eleven o'clock at night, and then been there like six in the morning or eight in the morning the next day to get to to full day like well, they brought it in Tuesday night. Now, it's Wednesday morning Tuesday. Wednesday say okay, it's been it's been nine hours. Now, it's been two days. Then that's how they do it. Because why because they can that's why because they have your car, and then there's a bunch of barbed wire in between you and your car and some flunky who likes making people miserable. And by the way, people that make people do anything with cars parking and all that kind of stuff parking enforcement impound. They're just assholes who have no soul and don't mind making people miserable. The greatest. I'll share with you people think, oh, you know, your twins being born greatest eight Netto driving off a tow truck the greatest in my life. But another everyone has a kid at some point. You know, Dr try in a stick shift, by the way that took some doing greatest day second greatest day was this. And I'll tell you I about this simply safe everybody simply safe home security, then on screw with you squeezy for every penny like this parking forcement guys. They don't make promises they can't keep they don't lock you into a long term contract. No, it's not a gadget either that watches your front porch. Now, someone comes in your side window, you do not want to miss it. You want an alert, and that's what simply safe does too is in there. Watch every room window and door twenty four seven professional monitoring and police dispatch. Catch built to withstand power outages. Cut landlines and more. Practically invisible small sensors blend ride in peel and stick up and running and under an hour fifty cents a day with no long-term lock in contracts. Visit SimpliSafe Adam dot com for free shipping and a sixty day money back trial, simply to is in simply safe Adam dot com that is simply safe Adam dot com. Tells about your wedding. I was going to see a show. It probably the palace or something back. Maybe Boston's or something back in the day. Hollywood highland. Whatever that choline go. Whatever that street is on the hill there. Yeah. It's fine. It's fine. The palace began the where the new is going to be. Oh, I think the. All return in conquering king comes home. A lot of memories place. A lot of memories. I ten minutes right there. Jesus. God damn Christ bored. I drive drunk that night. It's crazy, man. The has the pretty pink premiere party there. Yeah. Also. Also famously against all odds. Jeff bridges football. Whatever movie James woods was the club owner. Well, he was like the promoter guy. Now the band that played there during that movie like the head that band background. Phil collins. Oh, you should see it. Good moving the songs. Yeah. Brings it up. Like, August seem it's like itsel Jeff bridges is a professional football player. And he is in love with this beautiful woman. And I think. This is very tool to I think James woods is her like ex-boyfriend club owner runs the palace or they Avalon. Now, it's a big beautiful art deco place. It's super high ceiling, beautiful and sonic. Oh, yeah. Man closing touch right and good sign and kid creo, and the coconuts were the band that was playing. Guys that name kid Creole and the coconuts. I don't know they were like kind of a kind of a thing. The NBA's. What's the vibe kind of little more topical little more Carribbean sky? Whatever will try to find on the coconuts. Yeah. It says that they've variety of styles in particular, a mix of disco Latin American South American Caribbean Calloway any hits or maybe they covered like Cab Calloway songs or something. We'll see we can find kid Creole and the coconuts. This is the. Any not today and Zoot suit? He. B fifty two for Miami. A maybe Sam machine going on albums tropical gangster, James woods Lubega the club owner close enough. He the guy he must have been in that movie. I think he was Brandon club owner. Ahead. A little let's see if we can get better. There's this song you guys know of there's. There other bigger songs are it's a wonderful thing baby and stoolpigeon James woods was Jake wise, the neck owner. Yeah. So he owned that club and that anyway, cool venue. Remind me. Favor. One of their head. Probably got some spends on karaoke. Anyway, I remember I knew who they were talking heads. Yeah. They got a little that. I. So it'll be good good. Do do. Lance for ball. Brian. There's beautiful big art deco plays and molly's pretty pink was up the street and showed it after part of his there. And then I got thrown, and it's a crazy story. Anyway, I was remind me retail that drunk has ever been story. But I was pulling up, and they have this parking lots one there nother cross the street all twenty bucks a night. You know, kind of thing I was driving a three fifty z car, which is a Nissan, and it's like your ass is literally six inches off the ground like you, sit super low and lean back and that car it has like wearing a suit and stuff, and we're going into see some advance. Oh, it was the pretty in pink premier now. Oh, another for z car at that point. I had as he car, then I'll tell you. But remind me. We'll tied in the last Brian. And I was pulling up, and I had a jacket on an suit. And then the guy did the move where I'm gonna park here. And then he went the twenty dollars. I went. Yeah. Okay. I'm I'm sitting on my wallet. Let me get out of my car, and he's like twenty dollars now. And I'm like, I let me he's pointing at the parking space like we're going to get out of the car and run for Mexico. Like, you have my car twenty dollars because they own you parking gambling. Gambling. And I'm like just let me pull out get out of the car, dick, my wallet out give you the twenty dollars twenty dollars now. And I was like, you know, what fuck you. I'm going across the street, and I just put the car in reverse and the guy stopped and went, okay, fine park, the car, and I went fuck you, and I just drove across the street and just parked there and walked. I four into fuck me money. Yeah. My favorite part is when he was like, okay, fine. Get out of the car. Fuck yo we're done with this fucking exchange. Ask do and by the way guy gets fucking twelve bucks an hour. She owns me because there's a blue fast on you can't give dump people power with Trump. Tweet that ship. On the next. I've wanted their horrible. They're horrible. Like, this guy's a fucking lowest guy on the totem pole. But he's in charge of everybody who comes through there and he's going to fuck with their shit. Anyway. Sorry, where were we? So the member of the Florida man who mailed all those pipebombs to various Democrats, Obama deniro. Remember this not too long ago? Actually the end of last year that was Caesar's say, oh, well, wait lived in his van lived in van dam the river. Boy, how sad when living in a van has now become Quyen. Like, oh, look at him here van low carbon footprints not shitting in the park where my kids play. He's actually. Yeah. I've sent he said. Yeah. Well, he says that he abused steroids for over forty years. And that's what made him make all these bad defense. Yeah. He he he asserted in his lengthy, and rambling letter to a federal judge that this was the reason the motivation behind all this fifty seven year old CEO pleaded guilty. Eighty two explosives related charges in March and faces a mandatory ten year prison term and up to life. I like when you. Something a legal as the reason. You did something illegal. No, no, the reason I did this because. Because. His lawyers told the judge in a different letter that a psychiatrist with specialized knowledge of the effects steroids. Have a mental health will compose report on say ox extensive steroid. Use gear goes is going to come in here way to run this, by the way, all you have no idea when you're like a kid, and you're like a specialist took the stand and explain why this was impossible like a specialist that these guys paid to give an opinion favorable like that's how expert witnesses work. You just get them on there. You pay them. Basically tell you what you need to know. What will prove your point? And the steroid thing is a whole shitload gray area. Like, no, we're gonna just go. Who knows? My thing is twinkies may affect you. Steroids may affect you. Everything may affect you. So with that in mind, well this focus on the crime. There's like saying I ran over that kid in the cross driving drunk. I've been drinking. So that's what they're gonna go. So. There's an excuse. Reason an excuse that it's also to me like I was in the subway, and I hit that trainer over the head with a hammer because I'm insane. Okay. More reason why you never get to come out. Again, you're not helping your point the best example of that ever was on the sopranos. Stephen Tony Gorell when he had to prove that did any anybody. Yanna was not blowing Tony soprano when they got in the car accident because she had seatbelt abrasions, and she wouldn't have had her Siebel on if she's blowing Tony soprano. We should get Mark. I'm watching it again right now. Just bring him toward the studio. Take about gyco. Everyone's got the to do list. How about save tons of money on your auto insurance at geiko dot com. Spend about fifteen minutes find out just how much money you could be saving at geiko dot com about fifteen minutes. Save fifteen percent or more on your auto insurance. Gyco. That is geiko dot com. Mark garra. This is in studio. He's energize energized. I'm looking at the most beautiful woman with the most beautiful necklace. Dolly Parton shirt, exactly. Sure, that's what that was what I was admiring, Adam. I haven't seen you in way too long. I know marksman travelling marksman in court marksman in the news Mark has been waiting through jerk questionnaires for probably a month. And and then finally last Friday before jury selection, we entered a plea, and I now have a hole in my schedule. So I'm back is that. You're in you're entering a plea in the whole sex cult scandal next nets him. So it kind of unfolded as there's Keith Rene who's on trial. Allison Mack pleaded who's of smallville. Yes. Yeah. And she and she said, I'm sorry, and I'm not associate with them anymore. Yeah. And she pled. And then we were the last two defendants on Good Friday afternoon. So there's something about being in the Brooklyn federal court on Good Friday afternoon entering a plea with your client, but I- door clear. So Claire is the heiress who got caught up in this? You guys pled, correct? When gave she pled to dismiss the racketeering counts. They dismissed the Rico count, and they. They gave her a harboring nail, Ian, and identity theft something like that with with guidelines, but in federal court, I won't belabor it guidelines or no longer binding. So the judge can do whatever the judge wants to do so for her freedom and a job well done for you. She's she's I would say grateful and I adore her. So you know, there's a there's a quality of Clare teaser about this. That reminds me of Paulette in a lot of ways. So there's a they're very very similar personality. She's the air to the what fortune Seagram's so you Edgar Bronfman was her father who passed away a couple of years ago. Her older brother by different mother was Time Warner Seagram's probably the biggest Certa alcohol. Yeah. Starting Canada Canada. That's right. Yeah. Massive everything cores at one point that they had a lot of stuff. Right. Oh, yeah. Not mistaken. There. The reason why all the Jewish kids. Go on the birthright trip Seagram sponsored though really. Yeah. In two thousand bond Manisha. That's right. So jumping around but Lori Lachlan speak in pleading. So please explain to us how they gave a deal they said, no. And when they said, no, then they tacked on a bunch of extra stuff. This is a what generally happens you when they file they can either indite you first, which means I go to the grand jury or they can file a criminal complaint. I then they tell you when they filed a criminal complaint. I than they negotiate with you, you either negotiate accept a plea deal. Come to an arrangement, generally, there's a give and take. But it happens pretty quick. I mean, the federal system a lot of times takes longer we used to teasingly say as glacial pace going forward. But once you. In there as much quicker than the state court state court, you go through the preliminary hearing, you do all that stuff, especially in California where you have that. We don't use the grand jury that much. But then if you don't take it, then they go into indict. And then, you know, usually when they indict as a federal judge friend of mine used to say, they give tax tip and service charge. So they they usually are they offer you at deal, they think, okay? Here's a pretty generous deal that you should take. When you don't take it. They get a little offended, and they ratcheted up I think that that's a fair statement. I think that what I don't know that I would say offended, but they say, look if we're going to give you we're gonna cut you slack for early acceptance. That's the way they phrase. It wonder the sentencing guidelines, you can get two levels or three levels downward on the guidelines for early acceptance. And if you don't accept early then you don't get that. And that can be. That's pretty good range that can be a real time. Is it is it a rule of thumb that you should probably go with in a situation like that? And a situation like hers is it a rule of thumb that probably just go ahead and agree to the first offering they make you not necessarily. I think everything is factor oven because if an always knowledge-driven, I mean, if you're hiring somebody like singer to get your kids into college. Look, I don't know of apparent around who wouldn't want to do everything possible to get their kid in Adam Curle is one except for me. Crossroads example, of what your way if your if your daughter is on the bubble. You're not gonna do some knock down. Bubble whatever on the poll the bubble burning man, the bubble cost me the poll brings a cash in. But don't shoot. On the bubble Corolla? Wait a minute. She's on the poll that J J safety school UNLV. State tiger Minuit's. Wait. Isn't the Corolla mantra that you you were raised you you always characterize it like by pack of wolves, or whatever they just kind of out there have been nice. Yeah. Exactly by one wolf limping. But you always extol the virtues of family, and you always want. You're always kind of longingly talk about family. So why wouldn't you want a parent who is driven by wanting their kid to do the bow? I I'm for them. And and I. Fonet? Yeah. I don't I don't begrudge any the these sort of first world problems where one rich person is giving money to another rich person to get the rich kid Instagram star daughter into a group of rich people crew team. These are all neither here, nor there to me. I don't care, and I don't even need him sufficiently punished because this is just kind of rich on rich crime. Rich. It doesn't affect me. It just pay your pay pay your money thing. I thought about when this happened besides getting inundated with phone calls from prospective clients was I thought about Susan Pinski in Paulette, a parading the triplets and Jake through a swear to God this actually happened some place in south Passard San Marino. Where there where the kids there's booths and they're impre- school. And they're like, they're literally auditioning reach of the preschool boosts fair. Yeah. And I said this is insanity. I remember towing drew. This is clinically insane. I can understand for college. But we're talking preschool. No, that's what you need. Well, also, if you really just distill down on it. There's there's two subjects, and then I'll I'll expand that into this third, which is they obviously they find out famously said a million times when they send the astronauts up the space station, they lose muscle density, and bone mass and all that stuff. There's no gravity zero-gravity. They've now figured out that all these kids are lergy peanuts and hay, fever and all this kind of stuff because of these zero gravity there Munich deals with because I'll have air conditioning with filters in triple glaze windows, and blah, blah, blah study from two hundred years ago in England rich kids had hay fever. Poor kids didn't have hay fever. So now, we're going to stand that into the sort of physical scholastic world where now they don't have any adversity in terms of at home. They don't have it there. No internal adversity and no mental. We're going to have a bunch of fucking haemophiliac. Postage aren't going to be able to do Jack shit with their life. And I don't want my kids to be those kids. I much rather have them go into the military for few years, then knock around ju- co or something and figure out how to pull themselves up and extricate themselves. You do all you want? I mean, you get those kids into the best schools and prep schools and everything at some point. They need a little adversity. They need the bully. Down the hall. They need to teach your that doesn't like them. They need to walk to school. They need to realize that we can't afford to buy you your own instrument. You have to use the one with the dent in it that the school gives you they need that this notion that we're going to avoid all that with our kids. And somehow they're going to turn out better is just like saying go to the space station and eat moon pies. We'll around first cousin of the participation trophy. Yes. Okay. Although we feel like need to tell people participation trophies were around when we played pop Warner football. You give everyone who showed up one. And then you pick out the special kids, and you MVP and getting best defensive player. And that means something remember in high school who the MVP was on your football team. Yes. Mike. Mike durant? I got best defensive player best defensive. I got best defensive player. And he got MVP. I think invest offense a player. That's that's what I remember the kid Mariano. But I don't remember his last name. But he was a three sport athlete Niba mazing as you have to give them a participation. You wanted him on your team? So back the Laurie. Sorry. What are they now? So I turn on the news. I go. Well, they're definitely doing time. They're doing time. And I'm like are they really doing time. Well, the it looks to me like the original offer, Felicity Huffman had the same. I think was what's called a split cinci, Felicity took it, I think so. Yeah. And so a split sentences. If the guideline range is such that it gives a kind of points, the judge in general direction as to where he can head, and then he makes certain findings and says, okay, I'm going to either give you house arrest or I'm gonna give you halfway house or I'm gonna give you electron ick monitoring combined with. Maybe some bit of time, you know, a lot of judges will do a year and a day. That's a common sentence of some kind that gets imposed, but it looks to me like a home detention type sentence. So no one's ever going inside of a cell. Well, look, if you're an a minimum security in the federal level, generally if it's non violent if you have no prior criminal history, you will generally get placed in a minimum security, which is generally more like a camp. If you've got a medical issue, you will go to someplace like cars. Well medical facility is is Felicity. So it's not going to be like the site. I she will she will go some not going to be like the old civil brand the right orange is the new black. Yeah. That's not chained. He caves, gene. What does? All right. So, but she will have to go somewhere and change your clothes. I would imagine the Oscars. Gifting suite stored is a good example. Yeah. I just doesn't make in a world where we go. These guys that poor black guys still the dime bag now. They're in. Yes, I'm extending the same. Don't put him in. They don't pose a threat. Let them pay taxes. It's interesting to I haven't done a deep dive on it yet. But I've got a client thinks probably eligible. So I've got it on my list of things to do is the first step act, which is the new criminal Justice reform, Kim Kardashian act exactly it was called the first step back. And so I've got a client who's over sixteen is done sixty percent of hers. And so it looks like she may be eligible for that. So I'm diving into that. But Kimmy k give her credit. She did what nobody had the balls to do before. Indiana, the Willie Brown used to famously say when when California was going three strikes crazy that and people would say, wait, you're the progressive guy. Why? And you're African America why the hell you letting this happen. He says it's the third rail of California politics, you don't get in the way of you know. The the the mass incarceration. So the way I hear it is that. Mossy. Mo and Laurie law are in trouble because they didn't take the deal. Correct. And they may go in. I'm also curious why we were speculating aloud why William H Macy doesn't seem to be involved. But mossy mo- does. So you have a husband wife team, and they have a wife. I think you've got it. You just can't tag somebody by guilt by association. So I my guess was when Macy was there because famously the those pictures of him helping to arrange for her bail. And my instinct was that he probably has no meetings or is not on the tape or is not on the wiring. No Email or no knowledge of what was actually happening member. There's nothing that I can see that would be illegal about it until you hire somebody to take a test. And that's going to be a problem. There was that famous case we had in California and the state court years ago when some guy was taking the test in Hawaii and doing the answers to somebody else on the teas and then running out of the thing. Then there's this guy who I guess just pled within the last two weeks. It was actually the test taker who would go around and take the test I made my bones in the early eighties being paid not to take your kids families come up to me Karol on what you anywhere near that. Bungalow gar. Checking out pulling out twenties. What's it gonna take? Guy. There was a guy who's paid wants to vomit in the test. So that everybody would get extra time. And so that was yet that was a offer. Yeah. And by the way, speaking of this, the Laura Janke, the Xs in women's soccer coach at the school is testifying against Laurie and that whole well that we'd be what's called five K cooperation. So when she enters her plea she would testify against get cooperation that would reduce presumably reducer sentence to we owe break mex- right with a quick break. So I'm going to tease when we come back. Awesome. I'm gonna say we'll forget about prison versus facility where versus club fed. I've just want to say when we come back. I wanna tease what you think. These people will do at home house arrest ankle bracelet probation, or if they're physically. Early in who physically is going to have to leave their house and stay somewhere else. We'll do that. Right. After this. It's the final days of mattress firm semi annual sale until Tuesday gift huge savings up to five hundred dollars on our top rated mattress that's more than fifteen beds with four star rating storewide like our fan favorites sleepy's firm Queen mattress. Now just to ninety nine you won't find deals like this anywhere else. But hurry in this hill. Tuesday, your budgets richest further at mattress firm. Restrictions apply. Out of participating locations only for offered until mattress firm dot com slash sale. It's time to check out them's voice mail. As man get it on Doug in Lafayette, Louisiana. Are you talking about the Heidi Fleiss investigation? We had a similar investigation. Lafayette, recently, where they investigated some human trafficking sex pas between here and a few other places for seventeen months, and they it's thirty officers seventeen months the bring him down. So I was laughing so hard at thanks as man get it on love the show. You can leave us a message at eight eight eight six three four one seven four four. Mark arrogance is joined us anywhere. But the new so predictions on Laughlin and Massimo and may seem company Macy. I don't get the impression they're going to do anything. I do you represent anyone or know anyone involved in the case, I do not currently represent anyone. I do know lots of people involved. And who's going to interrupt you can leave their house and sleep somewhere? If you the only people who have real exposure and her rolling the dice would be and Muslim. Oh, because they're going to it presumably go to trial or try to do some put the government through its motions and steps what came out today or yesterday is them saying we just gave him the money. We didn't know what singer was gonna do with it. And that's what they're kind of relying. Now they've got cigarette cooperating which is what my father used to say. But you know, the the the give the deal to the Bank robber to get the getaway driver. But yeah. So once he's cooperating there's real trouble. And also those where all the bodies are very, yeah. He buried them. You don't deal with a guy named canary singer. Not expect here turn evidence against you. So area know what your game is. So so they're going to be in travel, and how much of it is the way the wind is blowing. Go back to your new best friend Justice, small et and say people are going. We're tired of these rich people getting away with this stuff. And now we're going to make an example like how much there's a lot of that of that. So. But that that is always the underbelly of the criminal Justice system. No matter what you say the choir. The criminal Justice system has its flaws because it's the government. I mean, that's a people who automatically trust the criminal Justice system who are also distrustful of government. I've never understood it's the same thing. You know? It's just the one of one branch it's like the DMV of criminal Justice, so Laurie and mossy mo- may end up going somewhere. Thanks. They could get acquitted. I mean for all I know muscles got a defense on this thing. So I would not if he's I can't imagine. He's micromanaging. It would be surprising to me if he's micromanaging something to to that would be shady from his standpoint. But all never know all we need is the wave of he wasn't involved. He didn't know what was going on. Or he was just cutting checks and hand him. To somebody to not see the inside of facility right has someone. That's pretty competent. Who's anybody? Anybody who's been married to understand the idea of innocent spouse? Yes. Both both ways. There's stuff that Lynette does during the day. You have no idea what you're doing clues to what I'm doing it any single point. And I have no idea what he's doing in buying ribbon and walking around locking yada. So harpists with purposes, right? I don't know. I mean, people don't people assume because you're married that you must know what the spouse is doing. I just think that's the biggest wanna know about a crime, and I would come home. And I'd see the platinum family L A lock in Yatta school of the planet of cardboard sign. Front of my house, go with that sign up. What you get what you pay five thousand dollars a lot. That's a lot for these two. Oh, no a piece he may five thousand the CU we get into the goal family elver wasn't. There's messed up to the case to maybe didn't to them the people are talking about. But where like they would they would write off their payment as donation and that was somehow elite. That was the case. But if the check went straight to US's foundation, there's no problem with that. If it's a legitimate hang on. Hang on if they're paying singer directly. And then writing off that that's potentially a product Jimmy iovine way. Library where what where are you with like something like Robert Kraft or semi outraged by that the I do not understand that prosecution at all, I don't I? But but you, and I've talked on reasonable doubt about this buddy of mine. Just try to case here in the criminal courts building where the cop admitted on the stand the cop admitted on the stand that he got the happy ending. He got the hand job to prove that my the the my buddies client, who's a Asian woman who's, you know, a little older is the pimp. Giving media work. Yeah. What about the part where they go? Well, we're going to release the footage now release. Yeah. Home release into that in. Why why do we need to see that? Why do they need to release it? Why says they want the first paragraph of his obituary to be Robert Kraft, disgraced NFL owner who you know. And is there any is there any way to defend I mean? Yeah, I think there is. I don't think that that's a they offered him. What's called a deferred prosecution? So, and which is what I expected they would which is just keep your pants up for six months. Don't do anything. And admit that we could approve in our case, and you can get it to Smith. He doesn't wanna do that. What about the part where they go human trafficking, and there is no human trafficking. And now that's forever. Kind of seared into our loose memories of craft with with that human traffic over there in Florida wasn't a and like how is that? And then is this craft have a recourse can craft go. Hey, you put this stuff out you put human trafficking one hundred my name. And now, I think it's actually more insidious than that. If I understand correctly, and I know his legal team very well. I think that the search warrant. To place the camera was based on the human trafficking. So there's an argument that you have to suppress it. Because if it was a bad faith representation made to a magistrate in order to get the peek, basically the cops line to a judge to put the cameras then. But was that would be the. First we have to call it. Leeann bad. We got for lying cop moniker is in. Can you throw the whole thing out like Vigo? Hey, we put this camera under this auspicies of this crime that wasn't happening. And then caught somebody else in that's. That's was pending is to motion to suppress because the the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine is if the tape was put there illegally or in bad faith, by virtue of what the representations made to the judge. Then you don't get to use anything. You get you. Don't get rewarded for that are missing the very obvious things. Front of all of us, which is dolphins fans. The worst now taking it. Now, I'm gonna say this. I should sit twenty minutes ago marks not allowed to talk about the jussie smollet thing and he hints involvement in it. I'm guessing which is told in advance that Jesse small thing in terms of the city of Chicago wanting to come after him for the money. I could talk on the table. Yeah. So we filed something we've we going to file something on that. We filed something day before yesterday on the press wanting to open up the file said, well, that's great, except why do they get the file when it wasn't turned over to us in the first place, and it was the prosecution who's the one who made the motion. It wasn't us who made the motion. So there's a I I have I've got a lot of opinions about that. Hopefully by next week. I will have resolved the issue. You. So that I can come back on and discuss it all Muller that case. What you I haven't heard your opinion. But I read the cover cover twice I haven't. I haven't talked to you, you watch FOX you get one version you watch CNN you get another version, which is why I turned off the TV and stop watching either. And I just decided I'd read the report itself, and I kind of in general feel like. And weird way. I felt this way about Bill Cosby like when somebody comes into trial, and they have all the information. They have all the witnesses and all the paperwork and all the money and all the time in the world. And at the end, they go we don't have what we need. We we got close like with with Cosby got a hung jury or whatever it is. You got close. I don't like the system. I'm not saying I like Trump or I like Bill Cosby, I don't like a system when someone goes, well, then we'll just do it again until we until we get it done. Like, I don't like that. I didn't like Cosby like the interesting your McGinn. The we end this. I was going to do reasonable doubt. But I'll do it here. Interesting thing is whoever wrote that. And I think it was Andrew Weisman. Who wrote it or maybe it was a collaboration. It was very from for a legal nerd or geek, it was very well written. I mean, I appreciate well written legal arguments. And they did a I thought they hewed to exactly what the mandate was the special counsel. They talked about the fact that under separation of powers, if you indict the president that the department of Justice has already pined that you can't do that. Because that would then have a separation of powers consequences, and that's the heart of our constitution. The he did there are two at least two footnotes where he basically said that's up for congress to decide or it's for the authorities once he leaves office, which by the way. Are all the same arguments. I was making twenty years ago in defending Susan McDougal and during whitewater and everything else. So it's interesting Adams heard me talk about this ad nauseam. It's interesting how everything that the Democrats were arguing twenty years ago during whitewater has now been taken and written very cyclical it is all cyclical and the same people who are arguing back. Then that's why you find these tapes of Lindsey Graham acting crazy and the others for them now to take the position they're taking where were they twenty years ago, and you can see just Google the tapes, I just want somebody to be consistent. And that's why you gotta give some credit. I mean Muller was around at the time in law enforcement was not a crazy then it was not a crazy now and Hughes, I think to the more conservative establish. You can always be a flame thrower. Anybody can be a flame thrower and say indictment item. Died in. But there are constitutional issues. I've been there the constitutional issues, and surprisingly, you know, who comes up best in all this is the guy's been pilloried by the left is dirty wits. Because jersey wits was art making these arguments and people were mocking him unmercifully for the last eight months, and now you read the Muller's report, and it looks like Dershowitz wrote it even though he did write a forward. So what what moving forward where is your head at where where should we be the nation? Like, if you were in charge of the world instead of just a third of the world, if you're charge everything what would you do with this report perceive, there's political consequences and their history as Bryan just said say, it's cyclical the they don't have the votes in the Senate. So they they could impeach him in the house. But then he's going to go to the Senate, and he's going to get acquitted and that's a slam dunk. So if he gets acquitted in the Senate all that's going to do is just like it did with Clinton incr-. Creases popularity to seventy three percent. So if you're on the left, and you've got any brain cells. That are firing. You're going to say to yourself. This is a fool's errand just from a political standpoint from a Justice sedan point. There wasn't anything that jumped off the page this he makes the same argument. Trump makes the same argument Muller makes the same argument that I made with McDougal with McDougal. It was obstruction of Justice. I tried I as far as I know the only independent counsel obstruction of trust. This jury trial with Susan we made the same argument there was it was not a legitimate investigation. There is in the jury instruction. You can make that argument that I didn't have corrupt intent because the investigation was not legit. That's exactly what the Trump and and Rudy have been arguing and I want to be consistent. I argued that was Susan. I thought it was appropriate. Then she was acquitted of the obstruction of Justice. And I think the same thing would happen here. What about subpoena? Eating or looking into tax records and the subject of that last subject for somebody is somebody who's been audited by every single department down to the board of equalization city of LA the IRS. I'm I'm I don't think you should be using the IRS or the audit process as a political weapon. I think that's very dangerous. And remember what happened you famously complained that nobody ever followed up on that last time they tried that remember during the Obama administration. Oh, yeah. They did. He did sort of weaponized. They are asked that like. Whatever not look the famously what's his name, Alex posinski who was the the the presiding Justice of the night circuit once said there isn't any adult walking around who some enterprising prosecutor couldn't find three violations. That's why you need. Prosecutors who are deliberative you need them to to say do I need to make this case. What's what is the what's the efficacy of making this case? What what is the reason? What's the compelling need to make a case because you can torture. I subscribe, I don't know if you do on Twitter to federal crime day and. Melvin hauled. It is such an awesome thing they come up with the best crimes of the day. Which is they just go through the federal statutes and find things that you would never look I do I've been doing criminal defense law for forty years. Not a day goes by that. I see a statute. I'd never knew existed did Eric Holder get into trouble for that whole IRS thing. I think he was found in contempt of congress. It was on the fast and furious. It's so it's just why it's important to be likable because you think back on Obama and you're like nothing there's another just like sailed right right through. But there were the IRS thing. And there was the fast and furious, and Eric Holder and everything else, but the media loved him so much you just kind of skated Teflon passed it. And then in your mind, it doesn't even register like, I didn't see any Rachel Maddow. Never said anything about. Escape forward. Everyone be likable. Would you? Please. Don't try to hard. It makes you unlikable. All right. Let me tell you about the last at least Castrol edge stronger under pressure Castrol edge with fluid. Titanium transforms under pressure three times three times full wrong than the leading full synthetic cancerous. Kasey breakdown it is Castrol edge. All right. You can check out all my stuff at Corolla dot com and chassis to us as a Y dot com. Mark Garriga as long as you came in here. We know we got Tenny we do we have engine company twenty eight we've got Provo pizzeria both in Grand Central and open yesterday in Times Square. So go see that. And until next time Samco for Mark Garriga's grand bulb. Ryan say Mahala. Ernst debt? Fully Adam Karol issue on Twitter at embroi- show fall as man on Twitter at Adam Corolla. Take a knee with weekly those of inspiration motivation Lincoln, Adam Corolla dot com. Subscribe your girl the classics to by producer, Chris and super vans. Yovani podcast one tickets and invulnerable ipod gasman degree events, movies and more good, Adam Curle dot com and stay tuned for AP news. It's the final days of mattress firm semi annual sale until Tuesday get cute savings up to five hundred dollars. Our top rated mattresses that's more than fifteen beds with four star rating storewide like our fan favorites sleepy's firm Queen mattress. Now just to ninety nine you won't find deals like this anywhere else. But hurry in this Tuesday. Your budget stretches further at mattress firm. Restrictions apply. Participating locations only offer Till's. Visit mattress firm dot com slash sale. Missing boy found dead. I'm Tim Maguire, the AP newsmen to police find a boy reported missing by his parents in crystal lake Illinois with heavy heart that the crystal lake police department reports that we've located what we believe to be the body of Andrew AJ friend police chief James black says his parents have been arrested. Both Cunningham and Andrew friend are being charged with the death and disappearance of AJ both are in police custody at this time says the body was covered in plastic. Buried in a shallow grave, not far from the family home. The parents Andrew friends senior. Join Cunningham each face charges of first degree, murder and other crimes. President Trump says he will fight all subpoenas and other efforts by House Democrats as he tries to hold off a series of congressional investigations shortly after the supreme court rejected a final peel John William king avowed racist died by lethal injection in Texas for the nineteen ninety eight dragging death of James Byrd junior. Simply because he was black. I'm Tim Maguire.

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 Packed Courts, Undecided Voters and 'WAP': You Asked, We Answered

The Argument

46:03 min | 3 months ago

Packed Courts, Undecided Voters and 'WAP': You Asked, We Answered

"I'm Christina Warren, the host of networked, the Five G. Future a new podcast from Verizon and T. brands at the New York Times. On the show, I'll find out how five G. can bring innovation to every corner of our lives. I'll connect with industry experts like the CEO of Zach Doc in the minds behind poking Mungo a learn how verizon five G. can help these innovators impact at work at home and anywhere we connect. Listen to network the five future wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Michelle Goldberg, I'm Ross it, and this is the argument. Today the argument turns to and our special guest is you. Rains at the argument. I'm calling because I. WANT WANNA. Hear you debate. Hi, this is message for Michelle Hi. My question is Ross and I very much enjoy your show. I just listen to the most recent episode. Hey, my name is Tina and from Denver Colorado Hey this is Leeann and Philadelphia Eric. From Terex, California we answer your questions about the upcoming election and everything else under the Sun. But I would democrats be justified in packing the supreme. Court. Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barrett's confirmation hearing began this week. But instead of parsing the back and forth the hearings jump ahead and talk about what might happen after her confirmation and the November vote. And whether three decades of partisan warfare will culminate in a democratic Senate majority trying to pack or if you prefer at justices to rebalance the Supreme Court Joe, Biden rather conspicuously is declining to take a position on court packing, but we don't have. Joe. Biden's problems here on the argument. So I thought we could start with Michelle making the case you're a Democratic senator it's early twenty twenty. One, what's the argument that you make to the American people for why it's reasonable to rebalance the Supreme Court? I'm actually not sure you make that argument in early twenty, twenty one. So of course, I feel like Democrats are entirely justified in addressing this and not letting the court be just like a reactionary check on any attempt at Democratic policy-making you're dooming a job I administration to failure That's that I don't think it should be the first thing. Biden. Does or the Democrats do I think it should be an option that they hold in reserve. In case you start seeing in court that strikes down massive parts of the Voting Rights Act. In case you see a court that strikes down Roe versus Wade or that you know strikes down the affordable care act or that really really interferes with Biden's efforts to pull the country out of the flaming wreckage that trump has left it in right and then the argument is I'm not comfortable with packing the court. Baloyi, believing all these norms are we really going to let Donald Trump's justices stop us. From ending the trump recession or from ending the truck depression and I think that that will be a more palatable argument again, if the Supreme Court keeps striking down kind of. Common Sense Biden legislation. So, let's let's just take a quick detour. Why do you think Joe Biden isn't saying that he had previously said he wasn't in favor of court packing but now he's basically saying, Oh, I'm not going to play that game. You'll know my answer after the election all these kinds of things why doesn't he just say something like I'm not for court packing the supreme? Court, needs to respect democracy respect the will of the people or something something like that. He should I think maybe the reason and I don't know if this is true is that they are afraid that that would be spun as kind of extortion. Part of his kind of hesitant part of his refusal to Sam not for court packing is that they? Want to send a message maybe to John Roberts that the court legitimacy really is on the line. And so yeah, I wish I wish he would say that in my personal language then again, I also feel like the Joe Biden campaign has consistently proven itself smarter than all of the pundits felt like they give advice. So even though it seems to me like an unforced error when they say it's definitely not a good idea to say people don't deserve answer to this. But I sort of understand the reticence to. Kind of admit demands that they answer this question. We did a segment before on this issue where we had our colleague Djamil Buoy on where we talked about various big picture reforms for the Supreme Court and so all the listeners who remembered that segment remember that I'm not personally. Someone who thinks that you know the structure of the Supreme Court is set in stone and I've said in printed I, think Republicans can be willing to risk court packing as a scenario you know if they nominate Barrett and that's just sort of part of democratic politics. Okay. So I'M NOT GONNA make a case against court packing. That's a sort of it's the end of the republic kind of argument but I would make sort of two points from kind of Republican perspective and the second one I, think you somewhat agree with actually based on. Your plan for when to pack the court if it becomes necessary but I, think you know the first point from the Republican perspective is that if Democrats want to be in favor of this taking this step that's fine. Well, that's not by us. That's not the Republican perspective, but you need to you need. That's my perspective. You need to acknowledge that you know this is just a continuing escalation that in fact, whatever Democrats objections to how Republicans handled to Merrick Garland nomination and how they've handled this nomination those actions are within this sort of. Presidents nominate. Senate confirms or rejects system that has been the system for basically one hundred and fifty years. You have to go back to the middle of the nineteenth century for change in the structure of the court, and so what we've had since the nineteen eighties is a sort of escalating tit for tat but I think Democrats are in a certain amount of willful denial about how big a step how big esscalation court packing would be relative to the Baron nomination or turning down garland but it's not just the Barrett nomination right? It's the entire federal judiciary. So maybe they should start with packing some of these lower courts where nobody is gonNA get upset about expanding the size of. The DC circuit FA circuit circuit but I also think it's important to note that when Republicans Thought Hillary Clinton was going to be the next president, they were all four changing the size of the Supreme Court either explicitly or tacitly right. You had in the National Review they were saying, let's shrink the court to six justices and that it's totally appropriate to change the size of the court in response to executive appointments. and. Then there was other people who were less explicit but sort of wanted to change the size of the court to eight or seven in practice. You had a number of Republicans saying we are not going to confirm any of Hillary Clinton's judicial nominees, and in fact, an eight person court is historically fine. So you had one piece in the National Review you had John McCain saying something like that. I think you had ted Cruz saying something like that and Richard Burr I think it would've been I mean one had had republicans. Done that had they refused to confirm any justices or refuse to give a vote to Hillary Clinton nominee at any point in her four year term in office that would have been a much bigger escalation than the garland escalation and I agree. But we didn't one that didn't happen. So we don't know if that would have happened to I. Think Cobbling together things a few GOP senator said in one bed doesn't prove at all. There was more than that. I mean there was the Cato, institute the federalist, it was the whole thing. It was like. A hole. In like. I I don't think it was gop conventional wisdom I. Think if it's an op Ed Nash Review in federalist and three of the leading senators three leading senators in an election year. I don't think amounts to gop consensus and I think it would have been I think Republicans would have run into the same big political difficulties doing that that I suspect Democrats will run into if they try and add justices, it would have been extremely unpopular and it would have given Hillary Clinton a pretty big issue to sort of wack at them with. But here's the other thing about popularity unpopularity I. Mean I feel like one of the lessons of the trump years has actually been that most voters don't care about process stuff and kind of legitimacy stuff and you know kind of the intricacies of democratic governance right what they care about economic results and I think that you could easily reach a point where those two things are in conflict where the Supreme Court starts basically making it impossible for Joe. Biden to govern to have a successful term to again undo the wreckage that trump has left the country with. And in that case, you know whatever the short term hit you take from changing the size of the court I think is much smaller than the hit you take from being unable to fix the economy. So I, think that might be right but let's before we get to that could I get you to conceive that court packing would be a significant escalation I don't know if you can because I feel like just if you just take it in terms of, is it significant escalation if you're just limiting the frame to Merrick garland and our BG in and broken promises around that seat? Yes. If you look at it in terms of the entire remaking of the judiciary and actually just kind of four years of Republicans telling us, we're going to do it because we can try to stop us no four years of just being punched in the face by. But like wait a minute, wait a minute appointing look appoint I mean. The stuff trump has done with the federal judiciary is the least norm busting stuff. He's done anywhere right but I'm thinking put the Federal Judiciary in the context of installing all of these kind of acting latkes throughout the government of frankly demanding that your attorney general arrest, your opponent, right? It's just after four years of this stuff when Republicans say he hasn't he hasn't by the way don't get credit for that. You're not going to give Bill Maher any credit come on. Ending he's standing authoritarian me Michelle Bill Maher Saving the republic right now as we speak and you won't give him credit. So after four years of what they have done to us, I think so many Democrats have been radicalized that they just when Republicans say how dare you break these unwritten rules of civic governance? I, mean you just want laugh like it it feels almost abusive, right? This is how escalation works. Right? Instead, both sides convinced themselves that the set of wrongs at the other side has committed justify whatever the next step is, and this is why this kind of both sides stuff drives. Democrats wild because they're really but with the courts but with the courts, both sides, it's literally sort of boringly predictable. Democrats start rejecting or Supreme Court nominees on ideological grounds. Then you go to the filibuster then you know you go to the abuse of blue slips you know Harry Reid is one thing Mitch McConnell does another thing it literally is tit for tat now I I agree that if you bring, you know to make the case that that Republicans, have escalated in these wage you have to bring in stuff outside the judicial wars but within the context of the judicial wars like it's just all. And I don't think you could have imagined Democrats saying. That they will not let a Republican president fill any judicial seats for years on end, which is what led us up to both scrapping the filibuster. Republicans, but wait a minute republicans didn't do that. What Republicans did was not confirmed Merrick Garland six month window, which was kind of sneer and be like a- Obama left all these seats open Obama didn't leave those. Seats Open Day used unprecedented procedural maneuvers to refuse to let Obama fill the federal judiciary when Obama tried to fill the federal judiciary in a normal process Republicans called court packing, right Tom Cotton had a stop court packing act which was meant to shrink the size of the DC circuit so that there would be less judges for Obama to appoint well first of all. Non Entirely. True Oba. Obama very clearly did not prioritize judicial nominations to the extent trump did or you would have had more confirmations in that window that he just didn't second the reason the Democrats got rid of the judicial filibuster was that day themselves had been the ones using it and the Republican resistance to Obama's judges was a response to escalation underbush that was. Temporarily diffused by the gang of whatever deal in the mid two thousand there's just like a long list of escalating wrongs and let's pivot to the second question because I think they're I think you're absolutely right. The Democrats can't pack the court unless you're right Michelle I concede everything I'm GONNA Go March to bill bars office and make a citizen's arrest after this podcast. I don't think there's any way or any likely way that. The. Democrats. Would move to ask justices just right out of the gate I think politically, you need some sort of outrage to site from a Barrett Roberts, Cavanaugh, Supreme Court. Here I think the question, the question that sort of hovers over democratic outrage kind of seems like the Supreme Court, all these Republican nominees has not been in the business of generating those kind of outrageous I i. think there's this assumption among Democrats that you know. Well, if if you put these trump justices in you are as you always say locking in minority rule making it impossible for Democrats to govern and so on but the pattern. Of. All these Republicans judicial appointees has been one surprising or not surprising shift to the left on the social issues. That lots of Democrats really care about join to a great deal of caution around anything that smacks of like Nineteen Twenty s or nineteen thirties style or even eighteen nineties style. You know sort of striking down economic legislation rights for I. think that's I think that's bananas I mean because I think that some of the most important decisions are citizens united the gutting of voting rights law, the kind of fruits of which were seeing play out all over the country, and which may in fact. End, up being what gives trump a second term despite the manifest wishes of the majority of the American people I think voting rights in citizens united are the two biggest examples of sort of. Them from from the court on the right to citizens united decision was correct voting rights. Decision was just sort of John Roberts making policy but I don't think either of those cases are. Examples of blocking sweeping economic legislation and I mean I think the court Roberts did a lot of policy making that was foolish in his obamacare ruling and You know in hindsight he would have been better off ruling the mandate unconstitutional and then severing the rest of the law from it because it turns out the mandate wasn't that big deal but but regardless, obamacare was not overturned I. Think there's no way that the current obamacare challenge is going to result in the law being being overturned and yes, it is sort of nonsense that the trump administration is simultaneously pushing while sort of denying that they're pushing impetus still it's not gonna be overturned and. I think Roberts if you look at the polling on the Supreme Court Right Roberts has actually been really effective politician the supreme court's ratings approval ratings have dipped a bit but it's still the most well respected branch of government and Amy Barrett has you know I'm looking at the morning consult poll right now you know pending whatever else happens in her confirmation hearings she has a strong plurality supporting her nomination I think that's it's a case study in how Roberts's caution has made I think a lot of scandal the road Americans feel like it's not a threat to democracy if Republican jurists are on the Supreme Court. So again given Roberts kind of unremitting hostility voting rights and I think there's a tension between his. Status Gop Apparatchik is unremitting hostility to voting rights and limits on corporate power and his desire to preserve the court's legitimacy you know into sort of not want to be the fifth vote in a lot of extremely unpopular rulings. I think that changes if any conybeare it is the fifth vote in in those rulings right or if some of those rulings can be six to three instead of five to four. I WanNa ask you a question. Can I ask you a question? You can. So I'm kind of assuming that Roe versus Wade is is gone and then you'll have bunch of state laws either criminalizing abortion or protecting it. You we're does then the pro-life movement. Stop. My guess is that the pro-life doesn't say like, okay. Now we're happy my guess is that they then try to say that actually. The fetal life is constitutionally protected before they wanted sort of life amendment to the Constitution. It seems like you could get there and other ways. You know my guess is that Biden would try to pass some sort of national pro pro choice legislation to see the Supreme Court then striking that down and you see them striking down any state level pro choice laws my to the I'd guess my answer to the second question relates to my answer to the first question. I don't think that this Court would overturn Roe v Wade in the way that I. Think would be constitutionally correct. I think I have a lot of skepticism that cavenaugh and Roberts especially would would you'd need at least one of them to get that kind of ruling what is it about Kavanagh's record that makes you skeptical that he would be all in for that I mean I don't think per se it's his record so much as sort of what he represents represents a very `institutionalised Chevy. Chase. Part of the Conservative Legal Movement I've I have a very political conception of this. I don't think analyzing is views on precedent exactly is the right way to think about this. I think he probably like Roberts cares about how the court is seen and understood in the greater DC area and I think he would see plenty of space to sort of create more room for states to regulate second trimester abortions where you could do that and say you know we've chipped away at Roe without ending row entirely I could be totally wrong. That's just that's just my. My sense and speculation. We'll be right back to take a lot of your questions. This is Sam Dole Nick. I'm an assistant managing editor at The New York Times. Newsroom has been empty since March, but we've been busier than ever before the pandemic has changed how we work, but it hasn't changed what we do. We are living through history. Every single one of our journalists is trying to match the moment we have political reporters analyzing every development of this historic election. We have data journalists tracking every single virus case in America we've national reporters braving. Wildfires and floods to witness and understand the effects of climate change, and then their food writers offering advice for what to cook during these nights at home. This is why we became journalists to bring to light real verified information when the stakes couldn't be higher we can't do this work with our subscribers. If you'd like to subscribe, please go to ny times, dot com slash subscribe, and thanks. And we're back. So for a while, we've been asking you to send us your questions election related and otherwise, and you certainly have a lot of them. So now let's hear from you. Hi My name is Max Greenberg. My question is if trump of points. And confirms. By the supreme. Court. Before Election Day. What is the incentive of the Republicans to vote for him if they're disillusioned with them? Anyway. Hypothetically if they get what they want, they got that last open seat appointed by conservative president. Why wouldn't they? Perhaps, vote for someone else. Thank you. So that's a really good question Max right when Ruth Bader Ginsburg passed away in her seat became vacant. There were a couple of people I think Sean Trende as the election analyst for real clear politics and some others who said the really strategic and Machiavellian for trump to do here would be to make some sort of show of magnanimity right and say I'm not GonNa Point someone because I'm so sure I'm GonNa win and then use that to basically goose zone turnout to sort of raise the stakes in the elections for religious conservatives especially, and obviously he hasn't done that but. From my perspective. I think if you're a republican as if you're especially a conservative concerned about the court who sort of gambled on trump last time for the sake of civil court. There's a totally reasonable argument that you should sort of pocket. You're gains basically say, yeah, we got you know three Supreme Court seats one global pandemic and it's time to walk away from the table and neither not vote or or vote for someone else and sort of declare victory in the trump bet that being said, I, think there were a lot of trump. Voters sort of wary trump voters in two thousand, sixteen. If you had told them, you'll get three Supreme Court seats out of this administration, and then you know you'll have a chance to vote a moderate Democrat in. They would have said at that point Oh maybe I'll do that. But in fact, the way partisanship in negative polarization works those same people are now. Obsessed, with the idea that you have to keep defeating the Democrats no matter what. I also think that they are disillusioned a couple of them are disillusioned but I think most of them are thrilled and the only thing that makes them unhappy about trump is that he seems to be doing badly and might let Biden get elected and let Democrats take the Senate. So you're not going to. Vote for Biden because you're angry about that scenario I remember talking to. Particularly Women on the religious right in two thousand sixteen when they were very very skeptical of trump. Thinking that there might be. More kind of religious right abstention then they're ultimately was. What they were skeptical of is that they didn't trust him. To give them everything they wanted right they knew I think that he obviously doesn't personally care about abortion and that it would actually be more popular when he got into office to move to the center on social issues and so that's what they expected feared that he would do. And then he didn't do that. And so I think they are you know by and large? Delighted delighted is maybe not strong enough a word for how they feel about his presidency either I. so I mean, yeah, I think you're describing a real phenomenon. I think there's in this isn't just true for religious conservatives I think there's a broad group of sort of movement conservatives who had that kind of skepticism ended up being really happy that trump sort of governed as a more conventional, conservative and so are more. Enthusiastic about voting for him at the same time there is also kind of Squishy pro-life, evangelical or Catholic swing vote to, and you know the inroads the Democrats have made in the sun belt and in the suburbs and so on. Depends in part on some women many of them religious women who voted for trump last time in aren't voting for him this time right so there's there's sort of different groups have different. Have Different trajectories and there is some swing vote. That would have fallen into this sort of like you know church going suburbanite Republican category for especially eight years ago. Don't you think? Sure, there's some of them. It's interesting I was last night I sat in on an online focus group of women who voted for trump in thousand sixteen and are now unhappy with his performance in trying to decide who to vote for. And Not One of them wanted roe versus Wade to be overturned, some of them identified as pro-life actually not one of them wanted roe versus Wade to be overturned. So maybe that counts is squishy pro-life, I counted especially pro-life. Now, one of them was excited about the amy conybeare nomination, and so you know whatever that's just like a small snapshot one of endless multitude of terrible things about this election. Is that it's hard to report on the way I would have reported on elections in the past. So I'm just not talking to people the way I would have been out talking to people in the past but I, do think that the people who care the most about the supreme court are the people who are the happiest about the Donald Trump presidency? This is from Listener Caroline. She writes no doubt. You followed the recent interviews with Stuart Stevens, the former Republican consultant who managed lots of high level political marketing campaigns. The argument to be had I think looking into his latest book. It was all a lie is whether the thesis is true was the outreached minorities and women by Republican candidates during the Nixon years and then later in the autopsy after the Twenty Twelve Romney defeat. Until the rise of trump and trumpism, which allowed Republicans traditional and newly disaffected voters to unleash their racist and misogynistic is. I think it's basically true. I guess the where I would differ is that I don't know that when Ryan's pre-bus commissioned the autopsy after twenty twelve, I don't think it was sort of him, rubbing his hands and thinking like this is how we're going to cover our tracks until we get to go full white nationalist straight I. Think they started thought. that. This is the way forward for a Republican Party that is going to carry forward kind of foreign policy and economic agenda that there's always been this divide between the consultant class and some of the leaders of the Republican Party and a lot of the base of the Republican, party? Right you had a lot of voters who were started in it for. The racism and a lot of donors and consultants who are in it for lazy-faire capitalism. What I think that trump years have done. Is revealed the depth of that divide revealed how little Be Average Republican voter including people who you know went to tea party protests ostensibly about small government ever carrot by any of that really the thing that motivated them was racial and gender grievance. Look some of these consultants even though I'm so glad that they are joining the side of good against evil now. They obviously understood that those sentiments were there because they made ads for many many years playing on them but maybe they didn't realize the extent to which they were really what was driving things from now on I think all the people who were uncomfortable with being blatantly White Nationalist Party of Patriarchal Restoration, those people are gone and so that's what they're public party is going to be for the foreseeable future. Seventeen hours worth of thoughts about both. Stuart Stevens and the Lincoln. Project, which is the larger group of Republican consultants taking amazing amounts of liberal money to cut ADS AGAINST TRUMP I won't go on for seventeen hours. But my my quick view is one a much. You know more limited version of Michelle's argument I think that it's perfectly clear from the trump era that white identity politics and sort of racial resentment are a bigger part of what counts as right. Of Center politics in America than a lot of Republicans wanted to admit five or ten years ago and to the extent that people like Stevens. Are just sort of saying that saying like you know we didn't recognize this part of our Party and now it's sort of come to the surface and we're gonNA condemn it I think that's good and they should do that. But I also think like the reason that things like that entity politics get activated and become important. Is often a result of sort of establishment failure that you can't understand trump. If you don't understand how we went from George W Bush a president who was trying to do a lot of racial outreach and trying to change the Republican Party's sort of Party of whiteness situation we went from there to here because George W Bush presided over a disastrous foreign war, and then we had a massive recession that was not entirely Bush's fault but wasn't entirely not his fault either and people like Stevens and a lot. Of the consultants and establishment, Republicans who have sort of taken on this role I don't see a lot of soul-searching and self scrutiny from them about how that past created this present, how the weaknesses of the Romney campaign which Stevens himself ran created this present right like I think there needs to be more self scrutiny from the Republican establishment about what kind of choices lead to a situation where Trumpian populism bubbles up for the next hypothetical time when they are someone like them gets to run Republican campaigns again. So let's take an email from reader Jonathan who writes from our neighbor to the north from Toronto Canada speaking of your point about undecided voters before Michelle, he wants to know how could anyone be undecided in the twenty six, twenty, twenty election he says what could possibly happen that could shift a voter in one direction or the other at this point. I firmly believe that anyone not stampeding for the ballot box is waiting for an excuse to vote for trump that they can use to live with themselves. This is incomprehensible to me. Can you dig into that a bit? So I think you are right that the people who are undecided at this point are sort of. Added Conservatives right I think if you. are a liberal if you lean left, you know you've you've already made up your mind and so. As I said before I recently was able to look in on this online focus group of women who voted for trump in swing states who are very disaffected with his performance and we're kind of talking about what they're going to do in two thousand twenty most of them are genuinely undecided and you know it was a very sobering. Thing to watch because. You know it's not that they sort of have strong. Policy views pushing them one way or the other it was more just that they. Seem to swim in a sea of. Disinformation and mistrust what they kept saying over and over again things like. I don't know what to believe. You know I don't know what's true anymore there was one woman who is undecided but was saying I just wish Obama could come back right which if you're thinking ideologically, it's sort of breathtaking that you could wish you could vote for Barack Obama, but the undecided if you're going to vote for Joe Biden but. They didn't like trump. They thought he was a bully their own lives have become markedly worse. You know some of them were out of work because of the pandemic that kids home because of the pandemic you know they think trump is embarrassing but. One woman, for example, said that. She blamed trump for the shutdowns which she didn't like was afraid that Biden was also going to shut down the country, which is something that she got from a trump ad. And so Again, I mean, I think that you know for a long time American politics Swing voters as if they were the most judicious voters is if they were the people who were really not swayed by partisan bias but we're really kind of you know carefully weighing the evidence against the two candidates. But in fact, swing voters of the people pay the least attention to politics. A lot of these women said that they couldn't watch the news because it was so negative and so. What will change their minds? My guess will be. Something that shapes. Federal. Impression Closer to election day and some of them they they were genuinely horrified by trump's refusal to condemn white supremacy at the debate. So if there's something that happens closer to election day that reactivates that it could push them in one direction at the same time they believed a lot of what trump says about Biden senility. Some of them thought that Biden is just a front for Calmly Harris who at least one of them really distrusted. Hannah Arendt way too much but I'm going to do once again you know she wrote in the origins of to Talibanism the ideal subject of totalitarianism rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convince Communist but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction a the reality experience and the distinction between true and false I e the standards of thought no longer exist. So, I guess, let me say something on behalf of undecided voters is especially agree that there are just lots of people in America who do not pay close attention to politics at all and who approach elections the way casual football fans approach deciding who to root for in the Super Bowl and. In a democracy of three, hundred, million people, I think the existence of that attitude not. It's both inevitable thing and not always a bad thing. I guess I disagree a little bit with the Iran quote like if you're that voter, you're probably focused on your own material reality and so you look at your material reality and you know let's say you're a working class American. The first three years of the trump era were for reasons that may have nothing to do with trump himself economically better for you than the last. Four years of the Obama Administration then Cova, came along and you know you're in worse shape but maybe like the voter Michelle sided, you're worried you know well, the shutdowns hit you really hard and the Democrats seem more prost shutdown in certain ways than the Republicans. So you're worried about that that's not an unreasonable chain of inferences to make someone undecided it doesn't rely just on misinformation. Asthma so That's an attempt to partially justify the late deciding undecided voter. All right let's turned slightly away from politics for our last question. Hi, my name is L. Grayson. Philadelphia and this is a little out there but I would like to hear you guys discuss a song that is making waves. All over the world via the Internet and has a music video gone viral it's called walk. W AP I'll let you Google in with that stands for Cook I don't please. Let me take. Courtesy B. and Meghan the stallion and caused some arguments between my boyfriend and I I personally feel really sick of people telling you that language like this is in power. and he's like who are you to judge I would like the host to talk about how this all fits into the conversation about feminism and whether that is where feminism is right now is a seven EST anthem. So I have very mixed feelings about this because I'm going to be the last person to criticize Cardi B. or Meghan new stallion or to. Say that what they find empowering what a lot of listeners find empowering is not in fact empowering in clearly it's empowering for them. Clearly, they have been able to own their own sexuality and exploited on their own behalf instead of letting others exploit them many many of their fans find that thrilling and emboldening and enriching, and I would never say a word against that. I would say a word against your boyfriend telling him that you should find something in our in if you don't and to me, that's the sort of double edged sword of what sometimes called sex positive feminism. Is that you know it's great for the people who really do feel liberated by it and it is not greet for the women who feel. Coerced by it on behalf of feminism right? Who feel like if they were real feminists, they wouldn't be as reserved or prudish or whatever I mean, this is something I felt a ton in my own life particularly when I was younger I spent a big part of my twenties in San. Francisco in the nineties you know in the age of feminist strip clubs and by remember having an extremely high profile sex positive feminists. Really shame me for thinking that I was GonNa have a monogamous relationship with my then boyfriend who's now my husband I remember being really really embarrassed and self conscious about my own self consciousness about being naked at burning man in public and my then boyfriend now husband actually built me a shower. So and I didn't have to take a shower in front of everyone and so again I think that there can be something. Genuinely Laboratory for people who felt their their sexuality being constrained and controlled. And it can also I think feel to a lot of women like a new set of commands obligations. I'm not sure I have that much to add to that. except. Two things. One is that it's sort of astonishing. To think about how we've gone from the culture of the same period that Michelle is describing right Michelle was describing the sort of world of sex positive feminism in late nineteen ninety San Francisco I think the complete victory of sex positive feminism since then is kind of. Striking in that if you went back to the mid nineteen ninety s and you had a song like this online and on the airwaves, you would have a really strong contingent of sort of centrist and leftist center scolds in the Tipper Gore school and I'm not using scolds ob-. Obviously, I'm in favor of skull now Ross's Yeah I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm still positive freeze high praise, right so there you know there was this kind of moralistic Tipper Gore style sing that was a big part of American culture and that has gone away to the point where the people making the you know is this really empowerment case are people like Ben Shapiro who are immediately attacked and mocked and so On roundly. So that's a big shift. You know part of the reason I'm not going to try to get into the heart of Tipper Gore, but the political reason for Democrats to make that case, right it's sort of an outgrowth of the sort of sister soldier move didn't WanNa let social conservatives completely outflanked them on the right right because there was this broader social anxiety about a lot of this stuff. That's true. But I think I think tipper believed and that has disappeared obviously, it has disappeared when you have a president who appeared in softcore porn films who paid off a porn star who is you know just by far the most depraved unless anxious character ever to occupy the presidency. When the religious right has so debased itself when you have, you know Jerry Falwell Junior revealed as a cock alleged I. Guess I should say. Right right. So alleged alleged cock, there is no longer any sort of legitimate right wing moralism that except on this podcast come on. The way but pete nobody on the left feels like they have to prove to the right. that. They're not really all you know sort of depraved San Franciscans. They just don't because any sort of right-wing credibility on this has so completely collapsed. All right. We need to leave things there. Thank you to everyone who called in a wrote in and we'll try and do more questions after the election. and. Now let's do our recommendation and it's my turn this week and I'm going to recommend HBO's documentary the vow. Only just started watching it. It's so good which is a show about speaking of sex what often gets described as a sex cult. Nexium. This fascinating mix of like life coaching and multilevel marketing and you know the branding. For the fourth of literal literal branding of the branding of flesh of the branding of flesh with the initials of a guy named Keith. Ranieri, who was since this cult has been sort of busted up in various ways but was the founder and Guru I hesitated to watch it for a while because I sorta thought I knew this story already, right it's been pretty extensively reported on and I really really did not know this story. I had no idea how huge particularly the multi level marketing part of this thing was, and it sort of explains how there's this huge organization and then there's this smaller group within it the smaller group of women that are branded and sort of our pledged to Keith. Rene. And they basically have to make themselves blackmail -able in order to join the group right? They give up the ladder lateral something that would either embarrass you or somehow. Life it as if it was exposed to, that's how they ensure that they can trust you when that you'll comply. I think one that's interesting too is if you don't know where it's going with some people coming to it won't although we've just sort of given it away. Or if you just know generally this is a cult or something you can yeah you can watch the first episode and be like. Well, you know maybe some small part of this got out of hand but the you know in the bigger picture, this seems like a very normal. American sort of self help program, and it's sort of interesting that it accidentally ended up with some cultish element close to the center, and it's only over the subsequent episodes that it becomes clear sort of the the extent to which the sort of cultish aspect was was sort of central and they're all along. So one more time I recommend that everybody watch HBO's documentary the. And that's our show this week. Thank you so much for listening. Again if you have a question, you want to hear US debate, share it with us in a voice mail by calling three, four, seven, nine, one, five, four, three, two, four. You can also email us that argument at NY TIMES DOT COM. The argument is a production of the New York Times. Opinion? Section the team includes. alisson. Bruce. Zach phoebe let Polish Lumen, vis shock Adarbah Kate Sinclair Isaac Jones and Kathy to. Special. Thanks to corey shrapnel. See you next Friday. But it doesn't apply to things like like WHA WHA. Sorry. So it's WOP wop while.

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Queen's Gambit & The Mandalorian

The Nix

52:21 min | 2 months ago

Queen's Gambit & The Mandalorian

"Welcome to the next where we talk about pop culture until we can't stand it anymore and we next. I'm just an art tongue and fanny darling as always a quick warning. The might be spoilers for anything we talked about on this podcast but we always try to tell you that they're coming this week. It is our post-election grab bag whatever. The hell is been on our tv this last week of hell topics this week. Include the queen's gambit and finale thoughts on we are who we are and the vow As always a plea to rate and review us on the apple podcasts at podge popping stitcher cashbox are wherever such pod related. Things let you review things at helps you find us. Please do it. We'd love that first off this week we wanted to First of all give a shoutout for surviving the past couple of weeks. Everybody yeah you did it We're feeling cautiously optimistic and also terrified so whatever that combination is. I'm sure somebody will come up with catchy portmanteau but we thought it'd also be appropriate to start off by by out very excellent article that made us laugh and also compass down a bit which i think we all need right now as written by elliott miss stall and much saying that right in the nation. The article is called. Trump is trying to overturn the election. But i'm not panicking yet or why not panicking. It's just kind of question and answer Running down everything is happening and why we shouldn't panic yet. It's hilarious vinnie's going to read a choice quote here Okay so it's a question and answer with you. Know funny but still very astute answers to the questions that are scaring us all and then finally the deep dives of. I'm gonna call them the justin questions. The i have been up until three o'clock in the morning figuring out ways that democracy is going to die and fair and it ends in well. What's our plan for that. And the answer is my dude. I don't have a plan for nothing matters anymore. The end of the end of democratic self government is not a thing. One has a legal plan for. That's like asking. What my plan for closing demonic helmuth that opens in my backyard die- my plan would be to die. I'm not so good it's very good. It also brought me why cana reeves is the the kind thing there. But i'll take it because the person that wrote this is a good thinking and right-thinking person that understands that keanu reeves can do anything include saved democracy democracy. I think it might be a john wick reference. I'm not getting. It's it's also john wick and speed and yeah absolutely is but also can ribs can do anything. It also Introduced me to my new favorite. I don't know what do they call them axioms. I don't know why they're called razors but Outcomes razor was always my favorite. The simplest solution is often the one that the correct one. This one is hand razor. Which is don't assign malice to something when stupidity could just as easily be the answer and i assign malice to everything. So i'm going to try and remember that perfect it's useful and larry's and who hamlin is and my plan to die. Everyone knows that is my plan. So i feel like this person and i should be friends and missed all call me. Let's go have a drink. When we can have apocalypse. you can eat verse. yup right. Should we get into are not quite main topics but things. We both saw this week. We saw the finale is for. We are who we are on. Hbo and avow also on hbo. Let's start off with. We are who we are. It's a show that we talked about can often on the last several episodes it is a look at what a nina's series mini series limited series wherever they call it about a two young people on an army base in italy kind of working out their sexuality identity and their role as americans in this crazy bizarre environment. What did you think of these series finale and the series as a whole we gotta do grades here. Okay series You want to hear what. I think i or you on my great up to you okay. I'm going to say what. I think. I because i'm not sure what my grades. I still have quite a bit of respect for this show. Aaron for the kind of uncomfortable feelings that it gave me us particularly after learning that they decided that that the creators decided that these children were fourteen years old which There were some things after that that made me uncomfortable and it made me uncomfortable that i was rooting for them. Like frazier's the character's obsession with a twenty eight thirty year old soldier and they go out and have i mean it's not supposed to be a date i don't think but it certainly feels like a date and then his girlfriend shows up to meet them and my first reaction was as girlfriend and then my reaction was no no good. I'm glad he has a girlfriend. Don't root for this site and this is inappropriate. This guy shouldn't be there. And i won't spoil much but my feelings about that. Relationship ended up being Stronger and made me more uncomfortable. And i do think resolved correctly and But i definitely had some complicated feelings. About particularly the way that it dealt with frazier's relationship with his mother and anna sort of sexual competitive way. And i know that is a thing but it made me uncomfortable and his relationship with this older man mainly because he didn't have anybody else to have an appropriate crush on i don't think and andy was very used to hanging out with adults and being adult lake. But because i was kind of that kid too. I think it made me a little bit more uncomfortable in the end. I really enjoyed it. I thought the finale episode was wonderful. I really enjoyed its lack of dialogue throughout the whole series. Which for me. That's not usually a thing. I enjoy i. I live on dialogue. I enjoy writing dialogue. I i like dialogue. That drives plot and so it was interesting for me that i love the fact that it did not have a lot of dialogue. And that you kind of just had to sit in it and I the self discovery of these two no other word for them. These two weirdos that ended up finding out that there was another weirdo to be with and to be friends with really spoke to me. And i really enjoyed it so i don't know that it tips into incredible territory for me but it's definitely a high nice. What did you think justin. i'm gonna go. Hi nice as well I think all of the things you said that pretty much right on board with and i think in the end to its credit but also may be to its detriment. Didn't really grapple with a fair amount of that stuff. It just sort of went. Here's some complicated stuff and just left it all hanging especially with like i think his mother like yeah no they they that also is moms you know wife like there's a lot of stuff that just gets left's kind of not even now i don't mind him bits but felt unaddressed. I did notice that what now. I don't know if you watch the after show things with the with. The writers with luke sold that one at the end of the finale. They a lot of the talking heads did say so. That's where we leave season one. So i don't i do think they are planning to make more so possibly is a limited series. Take a lot of them said season one and this is how we what. We wanted to do accomplishing season. One and we know that nothing on. Hbo is limited series. They don't believe in that shit so i. I assume that they left. Those things open to be dealt with if they get picked up. I don't necessarily think. Good some spoilers here for the finale. Not anything too heavy. But i do i. I wanna know your thoughts. I was both intrigued. But also a little confused by how frazier's character essentially becomes Finally does meet somebody age appropriate at this concert. The whole finale is set and has one of those magical wonderful like only when you're on the cusp of delta headed near late teenage years medina years winger out wandering the streets of a place. You don't know and you feel about freedom and you finally feel that's queer empowerment. And he just wants his his main kind of friend Who for the most part of the show has been on the transition to sort of being if not transgender queer and nonbinary and he's sort of been positioned as gay and then there's sort of this somewhat could be read as hetero normative coupling of them at the end. But i wanna know your thoughts because it didn't totally bother me. But i would love to hear what you're saying i get what you're saying. I thought okay. Yes he he gets to have that wonderful free tonight at the person that you meet. And you're like oh my gosh this could this could be something in that beautiful spark of of excitement and you know being on the edge of a cliff and then that person actually ends up being interested in you and you realize that you just want to be with someone else and i think the unattainable ness of the older gentlemen was safe and easy to be into because it continued to confirm that he was just an outcast in a weirdo and now all of a sudden he wasn't an outcast in a weirdo and he had to actually face what he wanted and what he wanted was what he wanted was harper. He didn't know he. And and i think that they are both. They didn't define either one of them. And i thought that was very smart and a title right. Yeah we are exactly. We are who we are and and who we are is each other and you know and at fourteen. It's beautiful that it doesn't need to be you know. I don't think it was hetero normative. Because i don't think either one of them had sexual i don't think i think they're both very non binary characters and i liked the bay just that they didn't make it. Okay now you have to be with a girl. Because you're you're a trans guy and you get to find your little gay boy a like that. They didn't do. And i liked it. I thought mary sweets doesn't have to be friendship versus like but lover that can also be fluid and also know it made me think a little bit about when koi seventy s character is sort of i. I don't know how you read this. But i sort of finish this series thinking. Oh she read. Is harper the characters. Name dour well harper. That's the name that they give themselves. Reading harper is essentially. You are a trans boy. And i think one of the themes of the show is like you. Don't define that. For frederick we defined this or we are like exactly so i ultimately thought it was really challenging and also fricken euro like. It's very you know all of this fluid. Call me by your name's not surprising but it's the same director but for a guy his age i mean i wish i could separate some of the like pervious. Luca guadagnino sometimes feel a little pervy but it's also nostalgic and honest and i think he sees a better promise in that generation of sort of navigating. The stuff that i find really sweet and refresh. Yes oh i agree. But i also have the and i discussed this with Lillard mitch who have been watching it too and there is a little bit of over. There is an old man. Who's filming these scenes where these are very open and expressive scenes. And to know that there's an old man with a camera. It feels a little voyeuristic nikki. And and i don't know that he's i don't think he's necessarily voyeuristic nikki. But i- i- co-signed what you're saying. I hear it and i and i don't want to have people think that it's you know something that we don't see that isn't there but it is something to sort of be chewed on in your mind. If there's a second season of this we'll watch the hell out of it. Yes these characters. And i wanted to what happens. Absolutely talk about the vow. Sure right so the vow finish. That was the thing speaking of another show that they promised us. I mean did it but yeah it seems like Spoilers for the vow one. I don't know what are we. It's brand one brand to. What do they call that. I'm forgetting the names when they did the like processing guard vanguard three data see accelerate so this spoiler ended very abruptly and strangely with gathering area in prison and they didn't even announce his imprisonment. Did they can't remember. I don't even think it was a code of unit. But i think it just ended with them all being arrested right so it seemed like they won and kind of like you know did ads was very abruptly and seemed to be at a next season where they're going to at least talk to him or sports story. More got thoughts on this puck vows to keep barking during recording. What did have some stuff to process this. I mean this is colds and this is shit. That i really love. And so you know you can inject it right into my into my arm. And i'm going to watch anything about a cult forever and ever the fact that it came out that he got one hundred twenty years made me feel really good Yes there's a lot of it here. And i have talked extensively about that. I don't feel like it's holding some of the people to account for you know the part that they had in it. Before they became whistle blowers that they are still benefiting from getting out when they got out and so yes there is some cure but in general did. Enjoy it a you know. I can't say that a edited it particularly well. It could have probably been half as long For most people besides me who is under the colts. So i enjoyed it. I will watch the second season. But i don't know that it was great. You know i want i. I won't say not for me for my rating because obviously it is specifically for me but that means that it might not be for. Everyone else is necessary. Viewing for fanny. Because it's it's necessary for you guy. I would guess y'all go with it's uncomfortable but interesting. It's necessary because i can't do not for me because it is very specifically for me Yeah i read a think piece in vanity fair that Right after got sentenced to one hundred twenty years and basically the author posited that oh well keith. Rene got one hundred. Twenty years and harvey weinstein only got twenty. Six did manera. Gephardt get sentenced to harshly. And i don't know how that was that person's takeaway from these two conflicting sentences. What caused mind was my response was no we give weinstein more time right. But that's just me. What did you think justin. I don't know too much about that. I haven't already said it's not for me. Only in that. I would not continue with a second season. It was fine. It's just this is definitely just the line of want any more time with these stupid people. They're crazy that's all. I got not for me all right all right into purchase other stuff that we both did to pass this hellish six months of watching night. The first thing. I want to talk about is Pop culture gone too far We know that we're not going to be able to have much you know fictional content because we're not being able to shoot it. I think the corona virus will ultimately be worse for scripted television than the writers strike Because i saw an ad for the masked dancer from the producers of the show. I watched fifteen minutes of one time and thought even. I can't watch something this stupid. And now which was the masked singer where they put. What d list celebrities in a huge elaborate costume and people guess who. They are from like apparently super obvious clues. Now they are going to have those people in the huge costumes. Day i i. I don't even know what to say justice. I can't i kinda can't believe it's actually a thing. And i nick's it and i don't wanna hear about it when it becomes a cultural phenomenon. I don't want somebody asked me. If i've seen it i i. I feel dirty having just seen that. It's a thing. So that's that's all i. I have no interest in seeing it. But i also don't begrudge anybody who wants to look at a ridiculous be costume doing you wanna watch it fine but don't come talk to me about it. You wanna watch it. I watch the premiere of the real housewives of salt lake city. So i i can't tell you not to watch what you wanna watch but hey local fox affiliate k. tv you. I do not want to see that. This week's reveal covered as breaking news on a fox morning show. I do not part that part. That's the part because they don't talk about real housewives and salt lake city on tv. You about singer all the time and it makes me crazy watch local fox. Affiliate news in the morning is another problem. But because we were born here in k tv you morning news is an instant fucking shit. That's why it makes you feel comforted and nostalgic and warm inside because when there is some sort of like Like i don't know cultural genocide going on somewhere else in the world they will cover the local dog show and that tv you. That is something that actually happened in my life. My roommate called and was very angry with kid. Tv we found out. Guess own how. I also watch some stuff I i watched ninety six hours. I think straight of msnbc waiting for results. And i will admit that there is also a spreadsheet you shut your mouth just are we may or may not. We're not sharing. Because i don't want to go on a fifty one fifty. Thank you very much. But before had to watch ninety six hours of msnbc. That's why. I have nothing to truly to support the to present except for the real housewives of salt lake city for before the for from the election on but before that i watched on amazon prime. I watched rachel gets weird. This is a movie without any well-known actors. I don't think the director is anyone. This is i think also where desperate for content and so we bought all of blue houses like everything they had under a floorboard and we're shoving it on amazon prime so you should watch it. This spoiler alert. This is going to be most of what i watched. Because i just let the next one play. Although this movie. I actually think is worth kind of checking out. 'cause it's it is legitimately odd. It's an even. I don't know it. It purports like you know that it's supposed to be a scary movie because the like trailer and it's Bloom house and and so but for an hour and twenty six minutes of an hour and forty minutes. It's just this weird sort of pseudo comedy about a girl who was left with the offer alternate now lives in this model house out in the middle of nowhere and gets cell service unless she goes on pizza mountain. Because that's the only place you can go to order. A pizza and oliver friends are telling her to Get laid basically sorry. It's rachel get strange. Sorry about that north. So and then all of a sudden empires check this out. I am not sorry. I saw it. That's okay that's a new rating. Not sorry i watched it. I love it not sorry. Yeah i am not sorry. I watched this movie after that. I watched the nineteen eighties fright. Night movie With chris sarandon who. I don't know why anyone ever thought he was hot. Because i don't know and amanda beer. St member man bears yes. She played the neighbor on married with. She played the neighbor on married with children. Yes she plays the love interest in the original fights. So i watch that. And then immediately on showtime watched the the remake the remake. Oh yeah because colin farrell is a vampire. It's like somebody said. How can we make a movie. More fanny than kiefer sutherland is a vampire. Oh i know. Let's make colin farrell and also. Let's put toni collette him and a little bit of anton yeltsin just so she can be a little sad about anton yeltsin. Also let's david tennant in and make him the weird vampire slayer person in some other pants. But let's let's do that. Yes it's a. it's a good movie. I've watched it several times. I hadn't seen it in a long time. I had that amazing weird thing where david tennant comes on on the screen. And i think why am i attracted to him. I should be attracted to him. And then it's then i realize it's because i want to be him now paper he's sexual energy at all. I understand that but on paper he should be my type if all the yoga me started but all the doctors are sell a bit. That's my research on paper. Tenant should be my time and so the only thing i can really the only thing i've come to realize is that he plays parts and moves and is just want to be that person i watched evil eye on amazon. Prime is also a bloom house joint if you will. This is about an indian woman whose mother is constantly trying to get her to get to get married She meet someone and the mother becomes convinced that he is the reincarnated soul of her abusive ex boyfriend and turns out. He is spoiler alert. You that that's in. That's in the trailer. It's it's assumed from the beginning. This is a good tight. Little film well acted yes. It's well acted. We had a good time watching it. I mean it's not. I'm not sorry i watched and then middling or to watch on amazon. Watch seventy five percent of volume. This was not for me. This is the what's his face. Eisenberg moves into some neighborhood with all sorts of the same houses and i. I'm pretty sure it's gonna turn out that. They're being watched by aliens. But that's what i always go to. I don't care. I didn't look it up after seventy five percent. I had to go pick up parker. It was time to leave. I forgot i watched it imaging putin finishing case then i watched watched final girls. I believe this was also on amazon. Prime this is mayland akron. Who i do not like but also tussey ferragamo who i do like nina dobrev who i do like It's an interesting take on your eighties. Film adam dina's as well basically a group of kids get sent into somehow step into an eighties horror film that one of the characters mothers who has who was dead Start in as a young girl teenager and they have to try and survive it and it sits. It's a fun take it's funny. I enjoyed it things. Blood gushes says one yeah. I enjoyed it so bothered me. Somebody doesn't like gore action movie. I enjoyed it. 'cause it's just ridiculous it's it's eighties gore. It's not so that is what i did. That people saw their. What did you. I'm hoping you have something that's like more important than any of the crap. I watched i got. I don't know about important out the show that everybody won't shut up about which i know you watch some of to gamut on net flex. This is by. Walter davis who have never heard of. I don't know anything about this. Book is written directed by scott. Frank who apparently is a pretty well. resume d- Film writer he did like logan and minority report and a ton of stuff. It stars on your taylor. Joy who i really am starting to think is kind of that you know. I really like her she is. She's great everything she's in. She really just sort of tackles in a very serious way. I will forgive her for the terrible 'em show lion while and make chum alliant while his name yeah. Those movies are terrible. She's looking desperate as movies. I really enjoyed the look of this movie. No you're asking me in the new kinman. No i don't know what that is. The you know the lighthouse on the rich guy He's his next one is going to be with on your taylor. Joy and nicole kidman and it's set like in colonial times. I think i can't remember what it's Yeah and i read the talk to you and say oh my god this is going to be. It's going to be so before he nysc. Yeah queen's gambit is basically a. It's about a chess prodigy fictional story about a young woman. In the one thousand nine hundred fifties becomes crazy chess prodigy. At a very young age. She starts off in an orphanage so it starts off and it feels very like my first reaction was like fucking seven episode. Not so sure about chess like that's not play ali and it does tick off all of the leg. You know sports. So whatever boxes like people talk about. Sorry frightening thought beware. Football people. queen's. Gambit is not about chess it is about chess to watch a lot of plants and it's boring. There's no doubt about it. But all of that said i watched the i kind of had some grumbles kept watching it like the second one a little more much. The third i. She is so good in this. That i am telling riveted. I also got a call out one of your favorites Heller who is i told fanny earlier today. And she said ooh merrill you whereas marty aller director of creative writer director of starving american girls and she is playing on. On taylor joys. Adoptive mother in this. She is amazing. I really enjoyed their dynamic. It's kinda worth watching just as you get into that story. It's sorta smart around the edges. I'm three episodes it. I don't know how they're going to maintain a for seven episodes like it's already feeling a little thin but i'm enjoying way more than i thought i would and i will keep watching. This and i am surprised. It also features that weird kid. From game of thrones who played gioja looking ridiculous. They oddly never aging one. Yeah and he's supposed to play like a older chess prodigy in this and he looks ridiculous. Sorry he's going to have to capri. Oh man baby problems. That's that's i'm weighing in calling it controversial opinions. I get to say what i thought. Okay the first thing. I'm going to say is i guess i do. I think i'm gonna say mari. I love you. And i'm so proud of you and good on your kid. You know i. She's just a ball of talent and she was back when she was a young girl on stage. And just a good sweet person. And i'm so happy for her. I watched twenty minutes of this. I turned it off. I walked away. I i could tell it was well acted just. It didn't occur to me to turn it back on. i will go back and watch for mari. Because i'm proud of her. And if you say she's good. I wanna see her but it just sort of wasn't super for me. I get it like i understand. Why the reaction. I think the first episode is a little like you know proforma lakes of took yes kind of child prodigy stories right and i'll try and keep i like i said i will go back and try from ari because i will do anything for her by the way. Robert egar's i think is his name. It's set in the tenth century Air it's called the norseman it. Also stars alexander. Skarsgard has a viking in it and it's required by law that he played any viking character. Willem dafoe hawk and bjork. Nice kid casts. Is it planned for filming each. They are filming it now. They're filming it right now and The quote from kidman is terrified. Right now i sound calm but you shouldn't see what's going on inside. Oh my god nice. I also watched the first two episodes of the mandalorian fine. It's more of the same. I don't know why i'm watching this. If we weren't in a pandemic. I probably would not be watching. This is very silly baby. Yoda doing or stuff. The plot is still kind of boring. And he's still being the walks since what. You're pretty much your your favorite off with your finish. Pants is only been in the first episode. So far and i don't know these going to be regular character so sorry to say that there is also some boba fett teasing the with that i do not have care your bus kelso as his helmet on the took it off. No i don't think he hasn't okay. I heard a rumor that he did maybe later. I don't he hasn't yet. The special effects are better the month. The first episodes of this season have been like monster episodes like crazy alien. Whatever i'm cutting here for that. I don't really care about like whatever like you know what i although like tying into the mythology i just wanna see some aliens in some cowboys space cowboys and tight pants. I'm fine with that without pope's okay again. Pandemic bob's burgers has been my guilty pleasure. Watch of last week. I love the show. I think central park has sort of repositioned. The show in my mind is just the guys. Make the shower just genius and the voice acting in the show's fantastic. A molen season foreign really parts. I get out. Because i'm just enjoying it and it's the show i think i'm just gonna watch forever. It's gonna watch like one episode every month. Yeah we'll tell me how that works. Also watch indiana jones and the temple of doom which is currently streaming on netflix. It's funny speaking of e walks. Dave never liked this movie. I really loved it as a kid again. i was twelve. He was a bit older when it came out. It was one of my first sort of like you know man crushes on evil harrison ford. Does he get. He gets more evil metro. I don't know that's science. That is science. Totally bad. Hot madman creepy. Men jerky men evil men. They're always hotter than i. That's not even a question that's just the way the world is moving on. I'm sorry but yes. No that is going on. I know you don't want to believe it but you. You've just been lucky. As i watched this i- dave's was like oh. I like this better than i thought i did. Because it's really it moves so well beautiful. The color's in that movie is a really nice print of at right now net flex. It's funny it's creepy. It's exciting all. It's so pulpy it's so stupid. It's super racist. Oh of problem. It has the wonderful line though of chilled monkey brains which we say in our house a lot. And what's her name is that god forget her name. Hey capshaw capshaw spielberg's wife is not great and has nothing to do an after the trended be. When did she become spielberg's wife right. Who was he married to when they started making this movie. Yeah that was amy irving. Yeah still fun movie. And so. I'm going to rank it the second best indiana jones. Maybe i get all right moving on. I am reading still. Stalking darkness is the second book in the night runner siri by lynn fluid. Ailing cannot say your name. I like this more than the first one. And i was so ready to be like putting a series down there. Seven books in the series. I'm gonna keep reading it. It there is finally a kiss between the main characters still major gap. Which is the creepy. But yeah i found myself literally. Like i felt like one of those like you know harlequin readers from one thousand nine hundred eighty s like fanning myself. And they finally. Yes very odd. They've finally admitted it like like it was. Wow my brain is broken from everything stock darkness. I want some queer. The've thieves guild teeths guild fantasy. Yeah that's the thing. I said out loud and on tape i can go back and play it whenever i want. Finally i wanna play very quick clip of because i haven't played musical de la soul. The best hip hop ever ever ever surprise dropped. A single called remove forty five right before the election. I thought it was appropriate. Then it may be more appropriate now. There's a bunch of old amazing hip hop heads on this song for a monk and Chuck d from public enemy. Let's take a quick listen to remove forty-five and anthem for our times. Wait let me turn off. The his heart spread harmony when his policies along on the piece of white kobe his story to be the root of the white house. Sort of like a to do understand. We have this well liberals to see the question you attorney really stupid. Bitcoin advocacy president ronald mcdonald. Not a racist. But it'd be racist voted for tom. Trophy wait let me speak to father school. Televise it against to remove evidence. He likes intelligence needed view. That was all room forty five. I think a one off single other death definitely do for new album. So i will take it because i love them. All right. should we move onto our who dat segment huda huda. That you're gonna sign me. i did. I assigned you last week. I go back and listen. I did john kuzak. And since it was my idea. I got to assign myself and i went really easy so i decided to go easy on justin and assigned him his favourite director. Who is mike lee. And so take it away. Justin who dat michael who rightfully so. This is actually harder than i thought. Because i mean michaeli is a genius and no going along with any michaeli. Hard to even think about central's in deep dives and i have such a sort of Emotional connection to his movies that it's hard for me to even think about that. Category central in deep dive this a little background. He is a british director and writer. I started making tv. Dramas and plays in the seventies. He always works. In this very improvisational way gets actors that he loves his a general outline for script and he religious workshops them until the scriptures finish. They're always very kind of slow paced Tackle class mostly about specially in an english kind of seventies eighties thatcher. That's kind of his big sort of topic. Although i think he's expanded san they're always hilarious to be like as humorous so dry. But i- cackle. Like i'm the kind of brazil goes to mike lee movies and cackles through them every sent me like i'm crazy but i think he's trying to be but he's also sweet and optimistic on top of all that sort of caustic. He's you know really. This is my lane a you. Just if i had to describe you to someone that would be if that would. He just did it. All right well. I like that are great. Prussia's tell us more about ourselves right. So i'm ken reeves the essentials all right. I'm gonna go fairly quickly. Because his life life is sweet is his big break through. I think of talked about on this podcast. Before i worked at in jelica film center in new york when it came out. Yeah it was. Just one of those kind of i Uk cinemas breaking out. Everybody was talking about it. Jim okay first of all i gotta say. All of harry potter's best actors. Scott mclean movies. You'll hear many of the mirrors. Just get ready This one stars. Jim broadbent alison steadman. Too many spall a these are all regulars movies fantastic. Also though it stars steven ray and the goddamn fucking jane. Horrex bubbles from ab fab in the most brilliant performance ever is just about young surly teenagers. Living the in depressed english housing also secrets and lies As the one. I feel like secrets and lies was his sort of big sort of respectable peak. Absolutely wrestling brenda blethyn. Whose genius and leslie manville. It is about a woman who basically has adopted daughter and kind of about race and figuring out all of their history together. It's it's amazing. It's one of his most straightforwardly sentimental surly funny but very just really digging into family drama performances. Herb outrageously get another year is kind of my personal favorite one that i watched often. Jim broadbent again. Who is i. Don't know if i had pick like a movie. Data just want. Jim braude favorite. He's just he's so wonderful. And you so funny. And he's a brilliant. And i don't even know if he's a good guy. Don't really want to know what he's no we're going to say he's a good guy period. That's just what we're saying. Because he's an and that he would always just be warm and wonderful. And i love him so much yeah and he and racine in another year. Play a couple that you sort of just follow through several years and their families sort of you know going through stuff and dealing with their kids. They're frustrated by that also loves dearly. It is the most just kinda subtle perfect family drama. I think i've talked about it on this also. Career girls is another one that came out of in that early nineties mid nineties at peak. I dunno sometime in the nineties. When i was at the jelica or after time is of each. Yep i don't know how you say. Her name catrin. Katryn cartlidge is so brilliant. She died in two thousand six. It's one of the great kind of sad losses of british cinema. She is so good. She's atone for that sort of like frosty kind of Just tough as nails. I feel like she influenced so many actor. She's amazing. have you ever seen this one now. It's worth watching. It's basically about these. Two women are navigating a friendship and also trying to get jobs. it's phenomenal. it's sort of. I think at the time is concerned lesser. Mike lee movie but people have grown to lover of those people are wrong. They're finally naked. Which is i feel a career girls naked sort of go together because naked is male kind of it's interesting as naked is about a very toxic. Very angry Sort of repressed kinda punky guy and career. Girls are sort of more about how people avoid that how women avoid that forming relationships in naked about how he's totally alone. Endeavor does of make those connections. David dualist is. It's his master performance. He's so good in this movie. It is super toxic hard to watch. It's really just pure just like bil- like we kind of spiteful behaviour but you're also are like oh god i want to kim. It hurts about hug what he's really good at deep diets. Okay so the deep dives a few of these for me are his period pieces of leading to more recently. I don't love the as much. I love that he's trying to do them. It's so funny because he has such modern stack at least. He has a very kind of eighties nineties aesthetic so when he tries to do these period pieces that always feel a little weird but also sort of engaging and i think that's why put them on the decide list because i can't stop thinking about the way he thinks about history 'cause he's a genius at the top of this peterloo. It is his most recent film. I think about the eighteen in eighteen nineteen. Uk massacre of a crowd that gathered to demand the reform parliamentary representation. It is sprawling. It is like charles dickens. But with like crazy improv. Very dark humored look about world. It was sort of a flop. It is believe on amazon prime because they financed it. It's amazing is long. It is slow fantastic also in the historic vein. Veer tariq starring a mill to stanton again. Now that a woman who was basically providing illegal abortions in nineteen fifties a. It's incredible. I just so good I like him better. When he's doing historical pieces that have a bit of a topical political slant that he really cares about. I think that really comes through. Finally one more political piece. Topsy turvy gilbert and sullivan. I did not like this when it came out. It was the kind of his first big foray into these big budget struggle pieces. I wanna go back and rewatch it. It has definitely stuck me again. It's j- broadbent as one of the duo. I can't remember exactly which one but it's a little more extravagant career more of a budget there. Many great scenes in it. I think it's really about the art of theater and cer- community of theater and worth a look I also want to talk about meantime. It is one of his seventies movies made for tv about two totally different brothers in a super lower class lower middle class family. The two others are played by tim. Roth in gary oldman in their very first performances is wild. Tim roth is playings. Mentally disabled character is trying to connect with people is playing the skinhead racist punk. They're both phenomenal. It's worth watching. Just kind of see how they started and has a lot of lease kind of raw nutsy energy. Finally happy go lucky. I wanted to end on a good note. This sally hawkins. It's been in a bunch of things. They including the shape of water. This is about a key. This is such a funny outlier. In the mike leigh catalog. It is about a teacher. That is just fucking happy and love teaching kids and people kind of a trump but she has her own agency and the movie is kind of constantly questioning the idea of like. Is she stupid or she just adjusted. i think. That's kind of all hiccup buckley. Know everything again. Everything is amazing. There probably like ten other early things that i haven't seen from his tv movies that are defined. But i'm gonna keep tracking them down because going on this little who dat journey. Maybe realize how much i love him. I'm really happy. I don't have an assignment for you right now but we will think about it and move on anything else this week. Okay that's it. Hey you guys who made this Hopefully we'll headlines razor razor happening. Where can you tell us about that. They'd seen or they can give suggested yeah. Tell me who. I'm deep diving or whatever you can find us on facebook just search for the next podcast and we are there. I promise swear to god. I have posted there so you could come find us. You can send us a e mail your member email emails thing. You can send us an email at emotion to knicks at gmail.com. You can find us on twitter. I just tweeted out a picture of my dog who has been irritating you for the last forty five minutes and you can do that at the next podcast. And i am at any darling. I met justin tongue on twitter. And we'll be back next week.

john wick one hundred twenty years frazier ninety six hours anton yeltsin justin chess harper cana reeves amazon twenty eight thirty year salt lake city Hbo fanny mary sweets Reading harper Luca guadagnino Lillard mitch seventy five percent colin farrell
FFR 143: First Cow

Feminist Frequency Radio

1:01:19 hr | 2 months ago

FFR 143: First Cow

"Friends did you know that you can see recently. Launched the games and online harassment hotline. While we sure did it is a confidential text based emotional support resource for folks who make in play games. You can learn more at games hotline dot org and please please help us spread the word so we can reach the people who need it the most what these men have is practically nothing. But you see the joy on these men's faces as they eat these oily case right and it's not like you know they're buying two dozen and eating them one after another. It's like just one. Like i have the money for just one in this transporting me. I don't know i just. I found it so beautiful it away. Welcome to feminists frequency radio. This is the show that ask you to be critical of the media. You love. i'm and i'm joined today by two women who sneak out every night to steal milk from their neighbors cows. Carolyn do what you gotta do. And every atoms. Do you like my oily kicks or not. I mean they do this week. We're gonna be talking about. I cal- stay tuned. Hello friends hello. Hey you know before we get started. I would like to acknowledge the time It is currently monday november second. Which means that. Tomorrow will be tuesday november third and that means that you be listening to this on wednesday november fourth or later. Okay i confirm your math checks out. What does that mean. we don't know what it means. Yeah exactly exactly so. I just wanted to acknowledge that like this is a really stressful week. It's been stressful leading up to it stressful. In this moment tomorrow is the us election Which could go so many ways. And i suspect we will not know who the next president is At the end of tomorrow. So when you're when this comes out on wednesday morning we just wanna acknowledge that we recorded this previous to Previous to all of the things that are going to happen in the next forty eight hours And we thought that this was an interesting movie to tie to this week because of You know it's it's sort of route situated nece in the growth of this country. It's like the founding of the things that we consider to be like the west end california and the west coast in american all that so. Yeah just how's that for a preface. Love it great yeah. Do you have any thoughts that you want to share before we dive in. Yeah we have a lot of international listeners. Are you going to be opening your homes to people like me. Should the case. You know things might go so well. I mean it's important to note that can we have a threesome marriage. So i can get you both into canada with out. Let's try to find blake become mormon But do i get to marry both of you. I don't know. I feel like this is an offensive conversation. See i feel like. I feel like maybe that might be open within the faith to men having multiple but yeah i don't think the way to go but listen. I know we have at least some listeners. Like in scandinavia. We're not gonna have any more mormon listeners. That's for sure right like we can afford to lose anybody but no seriously i have reached like my anxiety levels have been so high this entire year. I honestly feel kind of numb right now. Like i don't think i'm feeling kind of like gut churning anxiety that a lot of folks are feeling because i've already tapped out that bile has already eaten. Its way through all my internal organs. I have nothing left. Yeah i feel sorry. I don't know. I mean i just wanted to sort of echo that because like last night a friend asked me how. I'm feeling and i had this realization that while intellectually. I'm very panics. Really or or stressed about the week ahead and kind of worrying over all the different permutations and ways it could go and is he going to declare victory. You know tomorrow night you know despite like and try to toss out you know hundreds of thousands of legitimate ballots and so on or what like just all the different kind of nightmare scenarios. I also had a that realization of my anxiety level has been so plateaued throughout so much of two thousand twenty that even some part of me feels like what's wrong with you. Why aren't you even more anxious now like that. This is happening like just emotionally. That's not happening. Which does not in any way mean that. I'm not deeply concerned deeply worried. It's just that there isn't the capacity for my emotions shift to reflect. You know the the that concerned because twenty twenty has been a nonstop. You know buffet of anxiety. Yeah i'm very comforted by what both of you said. Actually because this morning. I was checking in with My accountability buddy about what. We're going to get done this week. And i was like yeah. I'm not gonna email anyone or ask anything of anyone this week. You know just on principle of how difficult it is. And so i was like maybe all use this time to like. Get some stuff done that. I wouldn't otherwise have time because you know whatever. I'm not like that stressed about this. Like like i don't feel actively stress so like hearing you both be like like whatever Right i know. I know i know but like there is a sense that i've just been sitting with like whatever like i am very well educated on all of the permutations of all of the possibilities of everything that could Go well not all of them but many of them right. But then as i started talking i was like you know that this isn't true. Like this is a story that i have just told myself right that i have to like you know that i. It doesn't matter for me. And that i you know i should be there for my friends. Who need it. And i'm like no i do too. This is a lot to take in. And while i'm not like i'm not planning on watching the shit show like all the different polls and all the kind of crap that's gonna come out during the day tomorrow. That's not going to be useful for anybody. It doesn't mean that the results of this election aren't going to be profound in like some really deeply existential ways you know. Yeah i mean my heart i think of my seeming equanimity right now. Is that for me. Like the worst has already happened. You know like we've been living through the worst for four years now and no matter what the results wind. Up being after tuesday's election we have to do so much work so much work as progressives you know like and we have to find a way to really you know like He'll some ruptures. And you know root out some cancers that are not going to go away regardless of you know if there were a landslide victory for tomorrow nevertheless all of those people who have taken to the streets gotten left in the streets after his rallies based still they are still in our neighborhoods. They are still at our grocery stores. They are still out there wishing for our eradication. Yeah i know absolutely like and not only that though like that's one hundred percent true but there's also like my one of my fears is the the people the you know. Moderates the the moderate democrats or whatever have that like once biden wins. I can go back to brunch mentality. Yeah exactly like that. I can check out. I've had to think about politics of these past four years. Once biden wins. I can finally stop thinking about politics again. And i'm just like please god. Please don't stop caring. Yeah if every time a democrat gets into office without fail like every fucking time right that like leftists and liberals are enraged. There's a republican in office. And then they just like check out or they just think the candidate does no wrong. I guess right exactly i. I guess. I'm just hoping that the crisis this past year in particular that the virus has brought about how. It's illuminated all the cracks. That were already there. In capitalism you know in our in so many systems which many of us were suffering under like well before trump like right. We were not comfortable and safe. I was not before like under obama. It's not like things. Were hunky dory for meal time. Like i just hope that people now understand that status quo more people understand the all. Of course. i'll be those who absolutely check out and wanna stop worrying. I just hope. More people realize that status quo you know kind of neo liberal democratic politics are. They're not cut out for this era like we need. They're not gonna cut it. As far as facing our climate crises are economic crises. And so on. And so you know i mean. That's that's like so it's like e even if biden wins like like. There's so many problems tied up in that it's a better position to be starting from but it's by no means like okay. We're done everyone. We can all go home now and relax like jobs done. I just imagined. I just flashed to the future and put myself in the position of one of our audience members listening to this on wednesday or thursday. Evian like those assholes had no idea how bad it could get. You know like at this on fire you know very well could only lading yeah. Yeah like highly anticipating A lot of horror happening in our streets i Yesterday drove to orange county and on the freeway. There was a caravan of about a dozen. Maybe more trucks driving in the slow lane fairly slowly for the rest. That traffic was going with giant trump flights and it looks like they were just driving up and down the freeway like getting off like spending the day. I would assume in the way that they were operating. Just like driving around with their trump flags and honking and then i was like yeah. Y'all i don't know why you think california's this big bastion of liberalness. Like this was forty five minutes out of la not come on and then yeah it was just. It was very uncomfortable and disconcerting. And i it also reminded me of how like lucky. Am to live in a neighborhood that i can assume doesn't have that many trump supporters. You know like. I can assume that i can openly have a conversation about like how horrible he is in a coffee shop when those things existed before and like not be a potential target like karen after the the last election you were with me and two of our friends at a at a restaurant the next day just being like what the fuck happened And i remember saying the same thing of like and it was in san francisco and just feeling like weaken openly. Have this conversation here. And i feel like there are so many places in this country that you can't do that or you wouldn't feel safe doing that. Yeah i don't know how. I got on that tangent. Well no we'll check in. Yeah the threat is very real. And i mean trying to trump. You know ring sat out like he encourages it. He emboldens it. He you know he. E yeah i mean i. It's it's you know. After after the like biden hairs bus was run out of texas by a similar kind of caravan of trump pickup trucks. Flying from flags. It's like you know like we this point. We don't even expect him to kind of condemned to make a statement. Like we must have free. And fair election. And i condemn the the actions of my supporters. Who drove you know. We don't even expect him to do that. Because we know that this is who he is and this is what he winds and in fact he did tweet like saying they didn't do anything wrong but antifa we need to. We need to crack down on teeth. Like it's just. It's so obvious like who he is what he wants. So yeah future you i. I don't know we might. You might laugh at us and send us messages about how stupid this whole conversation but there you go. This is where we're at on monday okay. Let's trump into Today's topic so every so often. Every and i like to take pity on caroline off and really give her something to sing her critical teeth into today's food. Caroline soul comes via the spare unhurried storytelling within director kelly records. Twenty nineteen film first cow said of the eighteen twenty s in the oregon territory first cow unfolds gradually telling the story of two men trying to make their way in the harsh often unforgiving frontier into this bleak vista. The two men bring a spot of light and sweetness and memory and all through the simple pleasures of sweet cakes made with stolen elk. What a story. The film is based on the novel. The halfway written by frequent collaborator and the writer of meek's cutoff and wendy and lucy. Jonathan remained so First of all. I wanna say like Regarding yes this is absolutely a carro movie. As i have been so looking forward to hearing the carol drop on the movie. But i want to say like. I and i acknowledge that embrace that but at the same time i do want to encourage listeners. Who may be like you know who. Maybe oh well that's not for me. Or whatever i mean. This is a film first of all i. I really believe that the pleasures of kind of art house cinema some people think of them as like a kind of elitist or like you need to be some sort of highbrow intellectual or whatever to enjoy them you know a big thing for me is like i really believe that the pleasures of cinema like this are not like some elitist thing you know. I think there are available to to everybody and so and this is a film that i am not some lone voice. Championing it you know. This is a film that so many people have found like delightful and beautiful and have really appreciated and celebrated this year but Gosh like the where to start with this film. Part of what's fascinating to me about. This film is that on the surface. It could hardly be simpler right. It didn't narrative it is such a simple story. Like if you were to sum up the plot of this film for somebody it would be very basic like. There's you know. But in that simplicity. I see like so much depth and like insight into capitalism and power and you know our notions of american history. And you know and so many of her things like i. I really think that this is a film that its simplicity is almost deceptive. Because when you re when you stop and you think about what happens in this film. There's like there's so much going on there So like i guess yeah. I'm struggling to even figure out where to start talking. Because i feel like there's just so much i love about this movie but yeah i loved this movie to it even though we give you shit for it. I also love what we are down calling carol movies. I believe that is the industry standard. And i really enjoyed this one too. And what i appreciated was not just the filmmaking itself which is absolutely superb but the experience that it forced upon me which is that this is not something despite how slow and measured and deliberate it is. This is not something that you want to turn away from. It's not something that you wanna watch while you're on your phone or while you're doing the dishes. It demands immediacy in the viewing of it at the very same time that you're watching this unfolding narrative that you know there are there's if you turn your head away for a moment it's not as if you're gonna miss like you know a marvel like fight scene or something you know you're not gonna miss a crucial plot point but nevertheless it is truly immersive and i found that so wonderful in a historical moment in which i am struggling to maintain interest in anything for more than ten minutes at a time. I really enjoyed falling into this moving at the same time that it maintained such really awful tension for me because it opens you know we sort of know the end from from gary beginning and so knowing how it's going to turn out seeing how hard these men's loves are how much they are struggling. You know and just praying. They can find some way that i misunderstood what that opening scene portended like. I just. I loved watching this movie. And i loved the way that it like. If it force like a physical reaction enemy in the fiscal reaction was to sit still and let it wash over me. Yeah i mean. I have really. I discovered kelly right guards films this year and for me definitely like a as a just tonal like what's fascinating is that films are often concerned with people on the margins In this film. Cookie and and king lou Are the two main characters definitely are like on the like on the margins of their frontier society. She has another film. Wendy and lucy which stars michelle williams as a woman who in modern day america who only has basically to her name her car and her dog she's truly on the margins of modern day society and she's like trying to make it her way up to like alaska for a little work and then she loses her dog and you know and anyway it's this whole like deep human drama about a woman who's your dog but but like this film and like certain women which is a wonderful wonderful film. I encourage people to check out. Like i find that the the pacing and the the attention to natural to landscapes into like natural beauty which really comes through in this movie such an antidote to like the panic and anxiety and the hectic you know just the the the twenty seven nightmare new cycle and everything like there's something grounding and calming for me about these films even as they are about people like struggling with like really truly like massive problems and predicaments but like so okay our visions of frontier america and like westerns. Like typically there so often First of all they don't depict like the diversity of america like as it was done or as it is now right. I mean they're overwhelmingly white and if it's if there are black people they're usually pretty much often just slave narratives or what have you like. This is a film set in frontier. America that the two main characters are white man a chinese man who strikes a you know what we might call an unlikely friendship. Although the film doesn't even treat it as like unlikely particularly and the camp to like we see populating the camp we see a diversity of people. Also our notions of the american west. They tend to be very romanticized right. It's often gunslingers sheriffs and bandits in these kind of tropes that dominate of the western and western life. And even when we get a film that that is hailed as subversive like say. Clint eastwood's unforgiven. Like that's just film about well you know being a gunslinger and killing people is actually really hard and bad but at the same the same kind basic just like twisted a bit this film. I mean the way that it's about like what we might call. You know. Ordinary people a for lack of a better term off the top of my head i mean and just ordinary kind of rhythms of their life is to me first of all. It's just it's almost radical in terms of how it parts from the images of that time that cinema almost always gives us right and like like and like. Oh this is like this. Is america like you. We and i don't know so. So what i find fascinating about this film so many things but is that in this film because of that friendship at its core and the dream that the two of them pursue in the way it is tragically like ultimately foiled. We sort of seeing this film both. Like what america is like how they are limited by power dynamics and capitalism and everything and we see like what it what it could be like we see the potential in the possibility just like in the fact of their friendship and and and like all these people sort of coexisting and living together In in this frontier town. It's yeah go ahead. Yeah go ahead. And eat up. So i i was like neutral positive on this like i didn't i didn't hate it it it is. It is very slow extremely slow but it held my attention for a while like it took a minute before i like picked up my phone and then was like wait now. Pay attention to the movie And i i was inc. I was immediately interested in like this like the situated. Nece cookie right like the. I think they did a really good job of like okay. Nobody likes him Who is traveling with. He's sort of an underdog he's likes. He's sensitive in a lotta ways rate. Like he's he's he's not really tortured as much as just like he hasn't been he hasn't had a great life and he's just like kind of trying to make his way and he doesn't want to cause problems and he's easy to get he. He gets bullied allied right and just kind of takes it. He has a fundamental kindness or decency to him. That is at odds with like what you know. Other men and what society may be sort of expects or demands right. Yeah some ways. Absolutely and i loved that as like the star of this movie and a lot of ways and The the other piece of it. That i really enjoyed was that i loved the intimacy and domesticity of cookie and king lou right like that. It was very intimate. They were very domestic together and it showed like a very close male friendship right there was never like are they fucking or not like no. It's not even in this world is just like this is a harsh world and we found someone someone that i'm compatible. We ask and can spend a lot of time with and you know plan with and think about the future with and like i really really enjoyed that right and when they both slept the very beginning they both sleep in a tent together and i just i was like oh. This isn't gonna go well like they're going to wake up and then it's gonna be a whole thing in this is going to be bad. And that's not this movie. Like my fears around homophobia and masculinity like not this movie yes and and violence to like it does not deny as a component of life on the frontier. You know king. Lou tells cookie early on a story about his friend a friend of his being murdered and cookie and and king loose fate alternate violent but because of that opening framing device which to me ultimately it makes the film. It changes the film. It makes suspenseful in terms of like. Oh god how. How does that ended up happening rather than what's going to happen it's like how do we end up there and then like the way it ends with that peaceful image row and doesn't even need to show us what happens because we already had no opening is so yeah you so great if you haven't seen the movie like you don't know what we're talking about but i think we should just not say what it is because for folks who might actually want to check it out Because yeah. I was really pleased with where they didn't go at the end right. I'm what one thing i wanted to to just share really quick about the domesticity part We'll we'll actually the fear the second time. I felt that worry that somebody was going to happen. Was in the bar where the man was like. Watch my baby while i go Do this fight. I was like oh my god the baby. Somebody's going to have the baby and then he's gonna get killed for it and like like that's not this movie just kept feeling like these. These moments of tension were coming up to like. Yeah and that's to me is actually a wonderful hallmark of kelly right cards films on certain women. Which is i think the film she made prior like immediately prior to this which is set in contemporary america. It stars laura dern and michelle williams and kristen stewart and louis gladstone. Who has a small part in this. As like as the wife the woman whose native american new translates between people anyway. She has a much bigger part in certain women and she's wonderful but that too is a film where you very you notice it like thirty scenarios where any any cinema has expected has trained us to expect like for instance. Oh there's a gun like oh it's going to go off and there's going to be violence things are gonna happen you know and and it's the sidesteps that at every turn like it's not like it's just not that kind of cinema. It's not that kind of story and like to me. It's it's there's something so refreshing about about like having those expectations not be fulfilled of like. Oh we're we're going to get at least a little bit of like an action sequence or some violence break out. No i mean you know not necessarily like like. Yeah yeah so the just really quick. Sorry no no no this seem so. So there's the scene that happens That is too long but it's beautiful and it's it's it's right after the baby boom that i was just talking about where king lou brings cookie back to his little shack for a drink and king goes out to chop wood and cookie. Like doesn't know what to do with yourself and so he starts like sweeping cleaning the house and he goes out to get flowers to like have fresh flowers in the home and was also. When i i realized that i don't know if it's a the director's vision or like more. This mataafa vision. But they use Window frames doorframes mirror frames a lot in in this movie That was the first time. I really noticed that In this scene. Because you see cookie like cleaning in the house and being domestic and you see king lou outside like you really struggling shopping would yeah and just like the camera doesn't really move as like watching these two people exist in real time and there was something really beautiful about that. There's few things i love. You know in cinema more than films that just like observe their characters and for like. That's something i really appreciate about. This film is when it's when it's not concerned with moving the plot forward but just giving us those moments of let's just be with these characters for a bit. I did not like you know. I didn't like how the indigenous folks were just kind of for most of it And you know it's not a story about them. It's a story about these two men But like i just kept expecting there to be more or some conversation. But like all the indigenous people we met Were basically like indentured to or slaves of or working for the like though the rich white dude. Yeah but i mean and that's a that's totally valid criticism. But i think the film. Is you know deeply concerned with a with that powerful white dude power and like how it works and how it functions in how imbalanced. Everything is like absolutely me. This film is really at heart like capitalism and the and the rules of like of like what what is you know for instance like you know. It's illegal right for cookie or it's against. I don't know if they what the law if there was an established law oregon at that time. But i mean it's it's a violation of lake. What would be. What's of the law in a sense more cookie and king lewd to steal the milk from the cow And yet it's perfectly valid and lee quote unquote legal for or the man who owns the cow to to have like just tremendous wealth and power relative to everyone else in that in that sort of out and situation. And i kept thinking about like how you know today right. We talk about well You know it's sort of illegal or whatever likes like people who are oppressed and who. Maybe you know. Ryan like steal a tv from walmart or whatever are demonized by politicians and the crackdown on by the police or whatever. But like but i mean what about the i mean in my mind anyway like like just just obscene scale looting perpetrated by jeff bezos and the walton family and whatever like stealing the wealth of the employees who general like ooh generate that wealth for them by doing that. Work every eight just to to obscene degrees. Like i. i mean like cookie cookie king lou. How they talk about king louis even says at one point like like when they're talking about how do we make this happen like well or a crime like he uses the word of crime but and wonderful things. Come out of that crime right. These cakes that everyone enjoys that. Bring back that look so delicious and made me super hungry. The first time. I watched this film. I wanted them so bad. And you know but like how much art creativity. How much wonderful beautiful stuff is not made or done. Because the people who could do it are locked out of the opportunity of doing it because the resources are hoarded by the rich and powerful you know and oh my god and their conversations about like conversation between the there's like a another character who comes and visits and they talk about like disciplining workers. I mean how relevant is all of that talk about like like i mean how dehumanizing to laborers right. I mean he says it's it's chief factor is chief factor is like the name of the big man in town right and he talks about like well. You know i mean sometimes yeah you might lose the labor from that employees if you kill them but but think how motivating that will be to everyone else like they just this raw calculation of like how do we get the most labor out of our workforce and it doesn't matter how much we have to dehumanize them. How much violence. We have to exact on them if we have to kill some of them. It's just a raw Calculation for them so infuriating and yet so like relevant to how these systems have always functioned and continue to function. It was the struck while watching the film by the reminders. Have how much back breaking exhaustive labor goes into being poor and two surviving on a day to day basis. So cookie is the cook for these trappers at the beginning of the film once that particular gig is done ends up at this four. That's where he you know re meets king lou and where this idea kicks off to to steal the milk from the titular. First cow In the territory. But i'm just thinking there was. There was a you know after one of the times when we see cookie king lou. Head to steal the milk and the scenes between cookie. Macau are so sweet. So so gentle. But i'm thinking like okay. So they're sneaking out in the middle of the night to do this and then he's got to get up early and prep the stuff to make these cakes and they have to like walk a mile to the fore And set up and then you know whatever and it's just like we're making enough money to survive that day and we need to keep doing this and everyone around us for chief factor is in the same position you know. What is this true like subsistence kind of economy. Like there's nothing extraneous here we don't have. We don't have the money or the resources or the time to procure anything extra. It's really about. Do i have enough to eat today. Do i have enough warm boots to get me through this winter. You know and so when we see like the money that they do start to make the excess from selling those the the cakes and you see like the diversity of the currency right so there are some paper money. There's some silver money. There's some coppers there's some shells there some buttons everything you know like this sense of like what is the actual true value of things like it's just. It's a question that this movie you know keeps asking us to ask of ourselves and it also asked us like what is truly necessary for like a moment of happiness. You know like what these men have is practically nothing but you see the joy on these. Men's faces is they. Eat these oily cakes right and it's not like you know they're buying two dozen and eating them one after another. It's like just one. Like i have the money for just one in this is transporting me. I don't know i. I found it so beautiful in a way. You know the the way that like the film asks us to recognize the ways that were you know in our current moment we have surrounded ourselves with so many things and so much noise. But when you strip away to the essentials how much you know truer some of our pleasures can be. Yeah i think. That's a strength of of cards filmmaking. Or that's a good way of thinking about it too is that it's it it. It cuts away a lot of on essential stuff to focus on on. You know maybe the things that that it in that in doing that other things come to the forefront and we as new irs and focus on things that maybe up maybe often in the hands of another filmmaker would get kind of lost in in in the noise of of you know showy showing s or or you know a story that was to was trying to do too much or what have you I kept wanting like if he's even though knowing that this is not the answer and like all the points that you are bringing up like yes absolutely i kept wanting to i kept wanting them to go to chief factor in like strike a deal so that they could keep making the case right being like i'll cut you win on this legal cut cut. You went on this and then like but then that just perpetuates all of the problems. And i thought he went to work and like how. There's no way he would cut them a fair deal right like it would be a situation where he has capitalists as you know as the billionaires of today or relative relative like his wealth is so much greater than everyone else like. It's always they get the lion's share of well right and so like the only way they can harbor those dreams of. Let's go to san francisco and start at a hotel or whatever all the wonderful little dreams that they talk about is by doing is by doing it. Outside of the again the law or what passes for the law at that time and place began to crimes. I'm super and we talk about how came. lou would not shut up. And i loved it. Oh my gosh there are moments like this. This is not a dirge it. Is you know there are moments of real light. And you know and the fact that like king lou as a character just constantly. He's character who's like you know and then we could do this. And i've been thinking about you know if we sold these three hundred dollars if we go to san francisco. Let's go. let's say he just like his constant residency blake. He's like a chorus like a greek chorus. That never stops for cookie. And there are occasional moments where you can see cookie like buttering. Just the slightest hint of irritation. It's so like natural and you know you know that it would never occur to him to to leave. You know this this this nascent friendship that he has developed with this man. I i loved that. But king lou as a figure is great. Yeah and i want to go back a little bit to what you were saying. I need about are you weren't really sure the film's treatment of like the indigenous populations in the area right. Because there's something so interesting about king lou. As a figure as this chinese man you know in one of his endless monologues telling cookie that they're lucky to be in the place where they are now because history has not started yet and what of course he means is. There's a certain kind of civilization that has not been inflicted upon the land and so history through via that civilization has gone started yet but it completely ignores the people who lived there before the way that they organized their societies right. Like it's so interesting to have like King lou be the voice of this kind of attitude as a chinese person you know and to be able to comment upon both like you know white society but also as being an outsider who's also more of an insider than the indigenous population there. You know subject to profound racism. You know in these frontier towns. But i just i just found him so fascinating and i found like what the film was trying to do trying to like russell with this issue of like when does history start and when does like human marking upon the land. Start to matter. I found it really interesting that the film starts with in the modern era with ali shock. Hot as you know like woman with the dog traipsing around this landscape and we see like A large ship that goes by train and the distance these all mark in the president right and then suddenly were in the past eighteen twenty s and the land looks the same and i just found it so beautiful the suggestion that like what what men may do what humans will do you know has such a brief affect on this larger existence like humans change but the land ultimately doesn't not in any real way and of course you know throwing ideas of climate change and whatever and there's mentioned over trapping of the beavers and the film but i just felt like thumbs wide shots contribute to this to like this sense of like this vast life but that we only start to take note of it and treasurer it when certain kinds of humans make certain kinds of marks upon it and then we start to take note of it you know. Yeah yeah it's interesting. That king lou you know he. He has seen like You know he mentioned that he sees the pyramids and he's been new. I think you know we mentions london and Yeah so for him like those are like clear. Markers of history has happened in those places and info cookie cookies like this place seems old to me because cookie. I mean he doesn't have that he hasn't traveled the world like king. Lou has but i mean he also doesn't have those particular those particular notions of history and like Yeah i mean yeah. That's yeah yeah. And there's another thanking liu says when talking about she factor he says you know. He still obsessed with london and paris. What kind of woman is he. Yeah you know. it's very interesting moment. And then men like we have to make our own way like. It's very interesting that this this man who's end anita as you not like this very intimate domestic arrangement with another man says about another male figure and i think you know in many ways the film does ask us to hold a certain kind of masculinity in opposition to other kinds of masculinity and. I don't think it's very giving of ivor. And i think like there were moments at the beginning of the movie where i just thought this is like a horror film. If i was traveling with these trappers. I would seriously go in the woods by myself and asked to get eaten by a bear. These men are terrible. You know and so many of them are terrible but yet again just found it so interesting. Like king lou. Such agree cared very so interesting. Toiling i would love to take more of this conversation into the bonus bonus. 'cause i have a couple more thoughts and i think that there's a little bit more. We can chew into but before that speaking of chewing which was a weird analogy. And i don't know why i said that bite into would have been better. It's fine Apparently dan qua- from slate Made the oily cakes from first cow and stole no and shared a recipe. So i'm gonna link if you wanna make your own oily. Caixa involve wired so no wonder they're delicious. Oh yeah all right we will be right back with some freak outs. You know somebody you can do today. You can head over to pay around dot com slash federal and become one of our patrons. That's right if you back this podcast. Not only are you helping us. Keep it on the air and keep feminist critical media criticism alive. But you also get little fun. Perks like early access to podcast. Episodes very special bonus episodes merch discounts. What else you got Oh we even let our patrons help us decide on new episodes and upcoming topics so go ahead and check that out. Patriots dot com slash. fm freak. Now it's time to talk about what's been thrilling. Moving s upsetting us or infuriating. S this past week caroline. Why don't you get a start as your. This is not like a rave. I'm not like all this is amazing. It's just something. I thought was kind of interesting that i i'll briefly share with folks so a week ago today. We recorded our episode on on the witches of eastwick and reading the wikipedia article for that. I saw it made a passing mention of the mentioned in passing that apparently bill murray was originally like maybe going to play the role that jack nicholson wound up playing and A week ago. Tonight i watched the new film by sofia coppola which is on apple. Tv and it's called on the rocks. Sofia coppola famously worked with bill. Murray in For her kind of breakout. While i guess she had made the virgin suicides prior to that but for lost in translation. And you know here. She reunites with him And it's a film on. The rocks is a film starring rashida jones as a you know a woman who suspects that her husband might be cheating on her and so she sort of enlists her dad or really her dad kind of enlists her in a in a series of capers to determine if you actually is being if he is cheating on her and and like the interesting connection with eastwick that you in the witches of eastwick as we talked about last week that the devil character darryl van horne like is constantly saying these kind of very gender essentially to things like women are like this men are like this and in in on the rocks a bill murray s felix as rashida. Jones's you know care. Laura dad is constantly basically like like telling laura. Well he probably is cheating on you because men. This is what men do. This is how men are and she doesn't exactly by like she's kind of rolls her eyes and everything but and the film doesn't doesn't like endorse it but it's just a character trait of of his. You know it's. I found it a pleasurable film part of it is i just think bill murray is so fascinating to watch. Even more he gets older. I find his face so just fascinating to look at. I think he just looks really. It's just a great movie face. it's so much character You know it's there is a sense in which it's kind of. It's a bit of a comforting film because like these are people of privilege in their lives are for whatever. Their problems are like they. They do have some cushy lies relative to me and there's a way in which sofia coppola is very good at just conveying the atmosphere of of privilege. And so for me. I'm like An escape from the realities of my own life You know it's a charming little film. It's a it's a it's a. It's a beautiful little owed to new york. It's you know it's complicated. With regard to the character and a lot of the ideas he spouts about gender and stuff By i mean you know. I i enjoyed it as a pleasant little Little escape from my own life for a bit cool. I kept saying as for it. And i was like oh my god. I really hope that this is not like a romantic relationship. Because hollywood is so gross sometimes So yeah that's a relief I would like to freak out about a book that i read called the library. Book by susan or and it is fucking amazing It's a really really good read. It is. She is so poetic and thoughtful. And susan orlean the orchid thief. Yeah right okay. Yeah her writing is just so. It's so lyrical and rhythmic And this book in particular is about los angeles. i'm and more specifically about the los angeles library system. So in april of nineteen eighty six. There was a huge fire that occurred in the central library of left downtown los angeles the downtown los angeles and It raged for like seven hours and it had huge consequences for the library and so as the book is Themed around this fire and the mystery around the fire. It goes back in time of from like the beginning of the los angeles library system. All of the wackadoo ran his library. Like wear it even started a goes into the history of the man who was accused of starting the fire who was also a fascinating character It goes back and forth in time. It goes back and forth between Her like spending a lot of time at the library What the status of libraries are today right that they have shifted a lot from Literally being a place where you check out books to Some of the only places in which folks who don't have homes or don't have access to other services can go to and so the libraries have become a lot more of a social service so that she really uncovers and talks about that tension In in in the context of both the history and the future of what libraries can be And what some people think they should be. It's just it's magnificent. The book is magnificent. And i i got it from the library right right. I got it from the library and it was. It was kind of difficult to read this book and olive the descriptions of the downtown library. Which i've never been to To like listen to what it used to look like. Listen to what it is. Now listen to the way people talk about it and the librarians as she interview. Talk about it and not be able to go there. Like i just outs of my soul. Wanted as i was reading this book wanted to go visit the fucking library just to like be in this room while i was taking in this history and everything that happened in this space at all the people who came through it and like how it got to be what it is so i when when libraries reopened safely. I am going to go take a visit to the downtown central los angeles library just sort of like pay homage to this like amazing history that i just read about. Yeah so yeah. Highly highly. recommend this book. It was delightful before we end this episode. I want to just quickly acknowledge conversation. That ebony and i had in the last In the last episode of our show about the nexium sex cult and the differences between the two documentaries the vow versus seduced At the time. Eddie had watched episodes of seduced Which is the documentary on stars. And i had watched all of the vow which was the documentary on hbo. Max i have since watched The available episodes of seduced and like. I'm fucking pissed at how much the vow like didn't get into it and i just. I really needed to like say that to all of you. Who like listened to that episode. Where i was just like. Oh yeah and then this and then that like the seduced has a very specific perspective which allowed Because it is from a survivor that was entrenched deeply into dos. Which was the sex cult part of of nexium Which i don't think that they had explicit access to of a bunch of that knowledge. The creators of vowed didn't have it. But what i mad about is that there were definitely things that were more public that were known by the people that were interviewed and worked on the vow and like it felt like the vow feels like this cheery little slap on the wrist in comparison to what you learn really fucking happened through seduced and i know that documentaries both have perspectives. And like they're you know like all things subjective but it is absolutely horrifying. And i like every episode that i watch of seduced. I'm more and more. Like i did not learn anything from the vow like it's like watching a completely different film about like totally different people. Although it is the same people. Yeah everyone i know who's seen them. Both is having a similar reaction to you. Anita there's some people who are like okay you know. I think the vow is useful or interesting because it because it takes a softer approach it. It takes its time sort of trying to effectively convey how someone can be. Duped can be brought into a call also kind of mirrors. The work that the cult itself does seduce doesn't doesn't waste any time when they're very clear from the very beginning heath rearing and everyone who enabled him and everyone who participated with him is culpable in profoundly. Evil acts and the lines were blurred between victim-victimizers at for some of these people but the fact is horrific things happened to people under the guise of education and enlightenment from this disfigure. Golly fuck head and you could leave the vow thinking like. Oh i'd like to hear keith ranieri's side of things and that's without promises right at the end of season comeback for season two. We're going to have keith. Rene statement the seduced will have amendment to prison. Abolition man got one hundred twenty years. And i was like good berry that motherfucker under the jail. He is evil just so eve lake. So here's a couple of things from the that. I like so again they didn't i don't i believe that they didn't have the insider information that we get out of seduced but like mark vicinity First of all one of the people in sarah whatever her name is was was in dos and both was a slave and had slaves like she was a part of that whole orbit The other thing is that the thing that really gets me. And i remember feeling awkward about this. When i watched the vow is there was like the one episode about gender stuff rain like it was the one episode that really got into the men's group genetics. The women's group. And i was like man. You saved that for like what the seventh episode and like. You didn't really even hint at the ship before. And then you like move past it. Real quick like i was horrified watching that episode and was also a little bit like this. You're burying the lead here all like what the fuck and so when you see in seduced the the words coming out of keith. Renew his mouth. In those sessions that are open to the community. Those were not hidden secretly through text. Messages in dos. Those were out in the open and things that they were saying about sexual about About I'm i'm not gonna say the things i'm going to say there. He he was uttering very horrific things about gender about sexual assault. And what that means to. The audience is of the people that we have come to empathize within the vow. And feel bad for in the vow. And i'm just like y'all like it's one thing to have been stuck in that and you know i do have compassion for getting sucked in and having and being stuck in it but like why wouldn't that make it in your fucking documentary rate like at the end of the day as you're processing all of this. Why didn't that make it there. Yeah i don't know Because like i said. I haven't seen the vowed but i'm also hearing that the the cult experts in seduce stairs men. Yeah like we are very useful. Very important information from these people incident like this is how calls work they xyz blah blah and of course the very fascinating discussion where they're like they call it self sealing where by when you're in a cult you replicate police you're the the the beliefs and you police yourself and your own behavior so like you can be away from the leaders and other members of the call but you have been so effectively brainwashed that you now police yourself you know. Yeah it was. It was fascinating in so so sad. Yeah for episodes people watch. Yeah the vow doesn't have a lot of external voices coming in right. It has won the one guy that always wears a black turtleneck or whatever he's in both of them but then there are other cult experts in seduced that. Give a lot of really great context. You have some therapists who are in there. Talking about shit you have the lead prosecutor. It being interviewed talking about like the context of this remote like a legal standpoint. It's just it's a better documentary. And i'm so sad that less people are going to see it because it's on stars and not to like demean stars. Which is there you know. It doesn't have as big an audience as hbo does. Yeah and i think there's a there's a way in which it is. The vowel is being firmed is like the prestige version. You know not through isn't but i think it's a very useful framing for people like mark for santa and the other filmmakers right because these are people who are high up in the organization and so now yes absolutely as a level of damage control to this kind of project and so if you can take this kind of like dispassionate distance view of what happened then you can minimize the horrible things that happen you know and potentially do some some some preemptive damage control necessary. It is the whole thing is i had no intention of doing any deep dives into nexium but then documentary and now i'm like okay. I need to talk about it constantly. And this is the third episode that i've talked about this shit on him. Sorry everybody listening. It's not gonna get any better until this episode drops we watch it and then get it out of our systems. I know seriously all right. Well thanks comment. Hope you're all still hanging in there by the time this airs. Yeah we hope you're still with us. Thanks for listening to the radio. Stay tuned for the frigging after party. Which is only available to backers of this. Podcast learn more patriot. Dot com slash. Fm freak the shows engineered by rob para kerry stimpson provides technical support artwork by jamie faran and are inter. Music is by phil circus by no by.

king lou biden us forty eight hours forty five minutes milk Caroline soul kelly records michelle williams four years Nece cookie lucy louis gladstone blake san francisco california scandinavia one hundred percent kelly oregon
8: About... Venom

Rotten Tomatoes is Wrong (A Podcast from Rotten Tomatoes)

52:16 min | 2 months ago

8: About... Venom

"The kale and welcome back to rotten. Tomatoes is wrong. And maybe if this is your first or second time welcome to the family. I'm jacqueline coley. i'm an editor at rotten tomatoes. I cover independent film and awards and mark. Ellis stand up comic rotten tomatoes correspondent and i know jacqueline knows this. My middle name is edward. Meaning i might be ripe for hosting and alien radio. Yes eddie brock is our subject. Today we are talking venom. Which is a word that back in the rotten tomatoes offices when this movie was coming down. It was the buzz word of the year. Let's talk about a tom. Hardy rizza med. We were talking som- venom because let's talk about it. This is a movie that still kind of haunts us to this day. Because the critics gave thirty percent on the tomato meter but audiences lived for it at eighty one percent. I think this is the biggest disparity of audience in critics scores. That we've done on the podcast and really we're here to break it down. Mark i mean what do you think we actually. We have some history with venom that we'll get into. But why do you think critics are so down on it. that's why these conversations are so much fun. I mean that is a fifty one percent disparity meaning. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Was it critics going to oppress screening in assuming this was going to fit neatly into the marvel cinematic universe and everybody got upset when tom holland spiderman didn't make a cameo or were audiences just so high on how cool venom looks at. It didn't matter what you put on the screen for two hours. They were gonna come out of that theater raving about it. Jacqueline i fall on the rotten side and it right now as of right now i feel like it's like a rotten movie that i love so we can't write a book about it. It's like a rotten movie that i can enjoy but i can be one over and arguments. This is one of those episodes where i'm going to contribute. But moscow listen and maybe have my mind swayed. Oh my god. You're going to be an undecided voter for this podcast. I love it anyway. Back to venom itself. Though i'm with you. I do think it's a rotten movie. I do not totally disagree with critics on it. But i would say it's like a rotten movie that i am supremely fascinated by and highly entertained by i wouldn't necessarily call it like unbridled enjoyment slaked like the joy is not there but the fascination and titillation and just like car crash aspect of it. I'll tune in watching it again. Didn't lose any of that enjoyment for me either. So i think. I'm on this other side of it but i think the prisoner we're bringing on the podcast today is going to be squarely in the rotten. Tomatoes is wrong camp. So it's going to be an interesting conversation but before we bring her on and talk about it mark breakdown for us. What exactly is than venom is a movie directed. By ruben fleischer. It was released in theaters in two thousand eighteen right around october. It was getting into the hormone the season but here comes this weird anti hero superhero movie hybrid. And it's all about eddie brock. He's an investigative journalist and he's looking to take down a mysterious owner founder of the life foundation. They do a lot of weird experiments. And while eddie is investigating one of said experiments his body merges with get this jack. I'm not making any of this up. You can go watch the movie and alien cindy haute. It's all of a sudden. He's got human superhuman strength and power and he's got this rage element tomb and so he's trying to control what is happening to the same time. Venom is trying to adapt to this new human host. Eddie that he is taken on. So it's sorta like a buddy friend relationship all wrapped up into a weird horror movie with superhero elements as going on in this twinkie. I feel for you even trying to come up with a concise synopsis for that because yeah everything including the kitchen sink and a lot of the pipes leading up to. It are in this movie and it does not. There's no subject there's no place this movie does not want to go Which is strange considering that it left. So many critics cold even though it gave the so much but we don't have to be the only arbiters of what happened. Why critics are thinking what they're thinking. Luckily for us rotten tomatoes provides tim ryan review curation manager to break down for us. Exactly what was going on just a couple years ago when venom was released and maybe give us mexico nation as to why it. Has this big disparity. So tim take it away. Thanks jacqueline so venom came out in two thousand eighteen and a lot of superhero movies out that year. There's black panther. Those vendors infinity war there was deadpool two and to lesser extent. There was incredible to but venom really stood out a lot of ways in the sense that it was not a typical good guys versus bad guys kind of superhero movie. It was one in which the villain is the star. And the guy who's usually battling the villain in this case spiderman was nowhere to be found and that was one of the issues critics had on some level. What's what is venom is it. A sci fi film is it a horror. Movie is it. A comedy is a superhero movie and for the most part a lot of felt like it worked less well as part of the extended spider verse or as part of the marvel universe and worked better when it was at its weirdest and when tom hardy was able to cut loose. So what did the critics have to say. In a rotten review catherine mcglaughlin finau now wrote then mostly wastes stellar cast with. Its jarring tonal clash. The wacky humor is badly timed. The one liners ghastly. It's blend of pure comedy and psychological horror. Just never really gels on the other hand in fresh review tori preston at pajibo. The tone waffles about and the plot is utter nonsense. But if you can set aside all the expectations and baggage of what you think of venom movies should be. You might just be surprised at how much you enjoy. Just what the movie is so anyway. Venom is at thirty percent on the tomato meter with three hundred and forty seven views but the audience scores eighty one percent so it seems likely that a lot of people in the audience were willing to overlook a lot of those issues because they really liked tom hardy's performance and because they liked the character venom. So of movies working for you. You know you're willing to overlook certain things that might be flaws in another film. But that's for jacqueline mark to discuss so back to you. Jacqueline i live for tim. Ryan timmy's ing. It's amazing it really seems like a and again. I don't necessarily blame critics for how they feel but even looking back on it. It does seem like there was an expectation that wasn't met with critics that fans for whatever reason we're able to kind of put to the side and is going and enjoy the movie and i don't know if it's as simple as that rarely anything with the movie is complex and with so many different moving parts. Venom is an explanation that simple but that's why we do the show jack. That's why we're here today. I do think venom might be one of these subjects. Where in the absence of like a good meal. People just eat with their served because they're so starved for it and going back to a previous movie that we did spiderman three. We all talked about how you know. Venom is just that character for comic book fans for fans of like the tv series. It's just that one that everybody kinda loves for his hero goodness. It's the sim be. Oh i think like wish fulfillment aspect of it. That comparison because basically what you're saying is that venom is not a well balanced meal. It's a meal replacement bar allowing these protein. Bars ordered the came in the mail today. So listen to the ingredients like meta mizen protein. Bland and then you also have like the sugar cocoa that sort of stuff and you have glycerin with palm oil fructose. Cocoa butter partially descended. There was anthem gum. Why am i eating gum. Toca for roles. I've no idea with any of this stuff is and maybe that's how people felt watching venema. I'm having fun with some of this. But what are all these other ingredients ear for. A you know what some people are saying that not our next guest actually recalling her back this is our first our first repeater and i will have to say it is a high honor that we were bestowing on her because she kicked it off with us with spiderman three and as she defended for the. I'm going to call a tow for venom. Because we're about to go into hardy venom hardy venom till for venom. Just for those that are keeping score but roxy stryer is back to break down both of them for us. Of course you folks know her from her youtube channel and collider. She is a girl that talks movies. All over the interwebs. Ms roxy stryer. Thank you so much for joining us again. Thank you for having me. I didn't know i was coming on here. Both to defend zakum and anthem gum Which is in a lot of things that i really enjoy eating. Thank you mark ellis. You devour those and you enjoy every bite of that. Oh it's great. It's great thirty two grams of protein eighteen vitamins and minerals and roxy your the anthem gum of this show. Because you're the glue that holds it together. But i also understand that you may have a passionate feeling maybe even more passionate about venom. Then you worry about defending spiderman three. Yeah hard thing. I'm very surprised. Because i feel like everybody's garbage like everybody that he. This movie is a pile of flaming. Maybe possibly lovely but still flaming garbage garbage. And i feel like the. Don't see for the gem that it is. The score on. This movie is so agree. Gis that i feel like i have to fight back even because how on earth people walk away from this thinking. Anything other than yeah is beyond me beyond me. It wasn't the boobs on the venom. Because that was it was that for me. It was both get intimate roxie. Did you see this in the theater. Where you had a fancy press screening. What was the first time you actually saw them. Yeah you know. Not to namedrop or anything. But i was at the premiere of this movie So i will say sometimes going to premieres gives you a little bit colored glasses. We've all been there before where you're seeing the movie with a bunch of people who are in the movie who have made the movie people who have no reason to do anything but cheer for the movie. So when i walked out of this movie i thought everyone in the world love this. This is the next hit. This movie is going to be critically and audience. -ly perform. It's gonna it's gonna mind everybody's gonna love this. So i was shocked to see what actually happened but i went to the premiere on westwood and it was a lot of fun One of those shutdown. The part of the street outdoor Indoor situations and. yeah. I remember watching it with my girlfriend. We are both cheering. We were shouting. We thought that this was one goodall fund felt like i was in the nineties time. Okay but here's the question at the after party. Did they serve lobster. You know what i feel like. This was a missed opportunity. I will give you this. They did not and that just shows a lack of budget a belief in the movie. I mean usually when the really believe something. The studio goes all out with the after party. I saw it too at the same theatre. You're talking about roxie. And then afterwards across the street they had like the whole dan town of dairy main set up and you could go to all these different booths and exhibits and it sounds like from your description. I wasn't privileged to get invited to the premier but it sounds like you see the movie venom and then you go across the street and would they have. They just like one of those hot dog card. People dislike coconut peppers and serving. You dogs on your way home. It wasn't it wasn't that it was more. I feel like you know some of these premieres care more about the virtual experience experience and afterwards you know like you're you're actually feel like you're walking on the side of a building situation that's where the money went to It wasn't a strong food event as much. But i really do feel like some seafood would tie this up perfectly. I wish there were broken. Tanks everywhere People sitting in them. I would sat in a broken tank to show how much i love this movie. A better metaphor for the film. They didn't know what they had. Because yeah again a marketing this movie lobster rolls for everyone and convenience food like you need to go get the seven eleven but those those like sausage dogs that have been rolling for like seven hours because like the second best movie scene moment in like all the best moments in the movie are in that convenience store they should have like had seven eleven as a co-sponsor so many missed opportunities in this. And if i'm gonna be honest roxy that's why it didn't touch greatness but me and mark actually solace together. We saw this at the low rent press screening because we're not as cool as roxie however it was. It was like the reaction to the movie. The audience was also split. I do remember people. Like legitimately like clapping at moments laughing out loud moments and then like another segment of them. That literally seemed absolutely disgusted by everything that was onscreen mark. I don't know who you around. But that's what. I definitely saw my vicinity. There's three kinds of laughs in a movie theater that i've been able to detect and tennessee. Your question jacqueline. I was usually i if i had my choice. I'm sitting away from everybody else. I just like to sit by myself in my own world what. I don't understand why people need to sit next to their friends at a movie. You're not going to be talking. Ideally for to you're not going to get any my popcorn. What why do. I need to sit by anybody. I prefer to be by myself and my thoughts and experience one of these three last so laugh number. One is like if you go see a comedy and everybody's laughing because it's funny. That's the most obvious one laugh number two. Is that a horror movie where everybody gets scared at the same time and then like three or four seconds later here comes the laugh because we're all giggling at how we all just got freaked out so it's shared experience then them had a lot of laugh number. Three's which is were laughing. Because we don't know if the movie is intentionally trying to be funny or if it's so bad that the result ended up being a comedic mishap and i think that that is still the confusion with venom was was it purposely trying to have this many comedic moments or was it just such a misfire that we as the audience couldn't help but giggle in a great example is the line when venom says like a turn in the wind. And it's like okay for note. Mls eddie's slash. The symbicort grew up in our producer. Lucy's hometown of nebraska. Then you're probably not gonna get strong enough and turds from street to street. That's not how work. Ideally solid thing. And it's just not being blown all that much by a little breeze. You lucky mark that your terge are all very solid. Why humble brag a little more. I know we're going to go into the third part of the conversation research and it's a very personal type of research that you the folks listening can do and i think that that is so representative of the movie because it is a. It's not a bad line but it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense and to hear it coming out of an alien symbiosis that has that classic look that we all knew from the comic book. It's like wait. That is what this character thinks about coming in from anywhere in the city. Preying on innocent people and we will find you and eat both through arms and both of your legs and then we will eat your face off your head. Do you wonder if that just so we will be this office. Limitless faceless team. Won't you rolling down the street. And so it just throws you for a loop and that's towards the end of the movie and you're still trying to figure it out long after the movie's over you're still trying to process. Not whether you had a good time or not. But whether the movie's actually quality mark told us he told us straight up. During the movie. I come from. I was not cool. I was like you. And i was not very cool. What do not cool people say. They talk about their poop in public places. We know this to be true so it wasn't very surprising. And i know that kind of laugh that you're talking about experienced that laughter during the hell boy screening on that was the laughter of own. My god. this is really bad. That and so bad. We all think this is funny. That is not the laughter that hear in venom. You hear real legitimate laughter. You hear this brings me back to my childhood to comic book movies of a different time to a lot of great love and and things that i wanna venom to from this like. That was the kind of laughter. I'm not hearing a lot of laughter. Three laughter. I don i gave it. You weren't sitting near me. 'cause i absolutely gave ton of laughter number three. I mean look. I'm kind of with mark on this. Mine is actually that there's brilliance in venom. There actually is legitimate brilliant envenom. The problem is the distance of it. It's two bands playing at the same time. No matter how great they are you are not going to enjoy either performance because they're playing at the same time and like the the the craziness of it is like for whatever cats was doing for an example of another movie that just went off the rails. But i really enjoyed it. Everything pointed in the same direction of like catnip soaked fever dream like that's just what it was unintentionally but everything was pointing in the same direction with venom. There's tom hardy pointing in this direction. Which is actually. I think the better movie and then the formulaic script and the very flat acting and the lack of jokes outside of what veneman tom are doing. And especially this very week sauce. Villain just put like this wet blanket over all of that fire in so even though there's a part of me roxy that says like i feel in the right hands. This has been a movie that we got could've actually been something greater and when you hear about it we hear about the details behind it like the biggest one for me is actually the scene when tom hardy is starting to succumb to the effects of the symbiosis after he gets infected. Tom hardy playing eddie. Brock he jumps in a lobster tank at lunch. Man does bowers all of the lobster shells which is just such an image like that is going to go on every video that i will ever make in future about tom hardy because unlike this is his oscar winning performance right here ladies and gentlemen heart. Any of this is no. I'm gonna don't please don't please a killing people call this but it turns out like the director even talked about it. They were not supposed to go in the lobster tank that day. That was not part of the script. That was tom. Hardy and tom hardy came to set that day and said look at the scene looked at what they had to deal with and he said i'm getting in that tank literally and then they just had to make it happen because he's like i'm the star this movie and i'm saying i'm getting in that tanks on getting in that tank and that's kind of the movie got film so the fact that we even got something that was is kinda miracle because it seems very much like tom. Hardy as he has been known to do was just like. I'm going to do what i want and again. This is also behavior that he's done in other movies. But i think that we loved to watch him do that. He knew his character so well that he knew if this was taking over his body and he was not well and he was seeing the love of his life with another person and there was all these steaks at hand. And he's getting in that tank and he's eating those lobster heads and more importantly than that question for you jack. When have you ever been to coachella because if you have then you know the joy of standing between the main stage and the outdoor stage and listening to bands play at once so you don't have to pick which one you are going for a great analogy for this movie that i rated alligator both the chili peppers and florence. And the machine. At the same time. Thank you very much coachella for allowing that to happen. Wait a minute though. But you're far enough away to where you can turn between the channels. This is both bands playing in your ear at full volume right next to each other. So i agree with you by comparison. I wake the coachella thing but one could very easily see how this movie would cease to be two bands you can enjoy simultaneously and it becomes trying to play football and basketball on a baseball field at the same time. And it's like oh god. I don't know which baldy use. Where's the hoop are we hitting home runs here and wh- but i will tell you what i enjoyed about. This movie though is that. I think it was necessary for this. Reason is because we had been so trained as audiences critics however you want to categorize yourself to look at a movie that has a marble property right. Doesn't necessarily have to be an movie. But we feel like we've gotten past all those those ghost riders and and those those misfires those jonah. Hex is movies where it's like. Oh no this is a weird comic movie. That's gonna exist and then go away so by the time venom comes out. It's like oh well that character from marvel we know him from spiderman so eventually spider-man's gonna show up and it's going to feel like another. Mcu movie and this was an animal to all movies. there were evil either. Felt like they were too much in the. Mc you had trademark sense of humor and the heroes winning in the end or it felt like it didn't feel like a a you movie where it just has to be so dark and dreary and sewin- and this was like wait. What the hell is is. It's not either one. It's kind of like this weird hybrid of both and so if you wanna stick with the music. I would say this was a little bit like when nirvana hit where it's not gonna be as well regarded as nirvana but it was like there was so much going on in the musical landscape from hair metal to singer-songwriter stuff in nevada hits. And it's like that's completely different from what we've heard it's the same kind of instruments but it's a totally different tone and this movie had a totally different tone than anything else that we'd seen prior and more you believe nirvana is anything less than great. I mean i feel like that's the biggest compliment. This movies ever received all ninety nine band. That is screaming trees. I feel like it's what. I went to see ferguson. Concert an rose comes on stage. You know like you didn't know you were going to get it but all of a sudden there's axel what are you going to do. Ask them to go home. No absolutely not. I mean look i guess my thing is is that you like it for what it is. And i'm not saying it. Me i'm like squinting eyes and seeing past it and i'm seeing what this movie could have been and that is even more disappointing to me because you cannot reconcile this fact roxy no matter how much you loved this movie objectively. I think you would have to agree that tom hardy isn't a different movie from everybody else. Well i think that when you have a symbiotic in your body you're not fully human. I i do not an acting choices. I know you wanna give him that but that was soda acting choice. I feel like it really truly. Was i feel like he was living in his own world as somebody who is essentially part alien and everybody else is like we is this. What's happening and they keep commenting. He's unrecognizable this is not him. We have to get him to the hospital. Because he's in his own world and he's in his own world because he's got this thing inside him for sure he's like some might say it was method acting wise venom. also so weird. I heard turn though i mean. Isn't that the part of the movie where everyone is going to decide ultimately. If you're on board with this or if you're jumping ship rubin who's an audience reviewer verified on rotten. Tomatoes makes a great point. He says venom is a weird flick. With a notable tonal change once actually comes on the scene and how you feel about the movie may depend on how you feel about that change. I think for people who are really looking forward to seeing venom once. You finally get the full venom of this movie. It was just such a weird shifts from what we had been watching. And so maybe that speaks to. Both y'all's points is that that is the deciding factor in whether you're gonna walk out of this movie saying this pulled off exactly what it wanted to. And it was great or this movie has no idea what he wants to be. It couldn't settle on it and therefore it's a hot mess with a lot of ingredients. I'll i will also say that. That was not a solo. Fan reaction Richard proops from independent critic. Basically said the same thing when he says if you don't allow yourself to succumb to all of it you're going to hate them and i will admit i'm a control freak because i was not succumbing to it but i definitely was at the glass peering into it with that strange fascination. I was definitely look into be like what of what craziness of these kooks cooked up and enjoying that as somebody who always believes that everybody's able to change and that's a different therapy session for different times. I feel like i was watching this hating venoms at first you just want him. You wanted to die. You want him to go away. You don't want him to take over eddie's body you put them in a jar and lock them up and then at some point you start rooting for venom. And that's cool. That's what we want as people in life like the people that you think that you'll never able to get along with because you're just too different and your core. You could never possibly come together and then all of a sudden you find yourself being like or do we have some similarities or is there way to make this work. And that's what this movie really kinda shows when we see that switching venom so i do agree. That was a turning point for a lot of people and for me. It turned up the heat. Not down it was shocking to see how well people responded to this movie. And what's the end of the room. Do you think that this movie as far as an audience score goes was harshly a response to fans. Who really wanted to see proper benham movie. Who felt jilted by the little venom got took for grace at the end of spiderman. Three and they said finally ten years later. I get the movie that i've been hoping for. I love tom. Hardy the effects of a cool. I can't wait to see this movie on the big screen. And then they see what the critics say and they see the tomato meter number and that almost feels them and i say that coming from a fan perspective not a critic perspective and that almost fuels us with this rage like now. I have to like this movie. Because i'm going to rebel against what we feel like. The popular state is telling us to feel. I mean look attempts that in his his segment that you know this movie was kind of inundated with a bunch of other comic book movies and that time they were all kind of playing to the same drum in the best one of that year was black panther from both critic in boxoffice but maybe it was just the difference of it to your point like this was just such a different flavor that was being offered whereas all the other sort of ip laden comic book entries kinda played it on that mcu formula that the fact that this is re wrote the playbook that it was the novelty of it. That made it good. And i can. I can even buy into audiences liking it that i don't think everybody who loved it. Even remember toe for grace though half of them probably don't even know who he is. I do think there there has validity here to this is a stick it to the mankind movie. When you see that critics hate something you do want to double down and say screw the critics. I'm gonna make up my own mind but at the same time mark. There's plenty of movies that have thirty percent scores on rotten tomatoes that the audience score matches much closer to that. So why this specific movie. Why this movie with the critics and audience being like no. You guys are absolutely wrong. It doesn't happen every time. So i feel like that shows that there is a lot going on in this movie but it's what the people actually wanted. They're not just raging against the machine. We also have tom harding. This movie right and so tom. Hardy is coming off of being in a hard. Our film that a lot of people didn't think would work because it was a hard our movie. And that's mad. Max fury road right and that was beloved by critics and audiences so i do wonder if the rating factored into it where some people were going in thinking this movie. There's no way can't be right in our Do venom properly in less it's rated r. And then you have another contingent which include myself in this faction is that look. I would love to see an r. rated movie it's cool. You can't make it our. This movie has to be pg thirteen because whether or not spidey is shown up in this movie. Eventually you're gonna wanna be a part of that universe and you have to make it palatable for disney to be able to accept you into their greater plan and for that to happen you can't open with an r rating just simply is not going to work from a business sense you can talk about artistic stuff all day long. The bottom line is money. And i think that the the box office surprised me. I had to bet back. When i was hosting movie talk three lifetimes ago with perry number off our friend who and i was like. No there's no way this movie's break in. Like i said like fifty million dollars opening weekend and this movie soared past that and i think a lot of that was because everybody could go see it. It was like an r. Rated type movie but it was pg thirteen so everybody could go see it now. I need to check this again. But i believe that the domestic numbers for were good but they were not phenomenal. Definitely not black panther numbers where the domestic on actually outweighed the international. I think another factor into why this one especially traveled well and so therefore reach larger audiences that enjoyed it is by using the enemy the animated silvio and it's an animated figure. They can put whatever words in that figures mouth that they want. It's one of the reasons why animated movies also travel well from a like international standpoint so you can tweak the jokes to be regional until like really sort of like sinner in on wherever. They're speaking to select the jokes in paris. When you're doing it in. French are going to be a little bit. More self referential and they're gonna speak to that language. You can't always do that with actors because the mouth movements in the sort of like emotionality too. But when you're doing the anime figure you can kind of put anything in their mouth. You want and just sort changed the eyebrows in there you go. You haven't seen a lot more people than just roxie times because you're at the domestic box office was pretty good. It was two hundred thirteen million dollars. And thank you mark off. Mark for the research on a budget of one hundred million but worldwide is where this really did damage. Eight hundred fifty six million bucks a fair chunk of which came from china. Where they completely repurpose the marketing. To jacqueline's point roxie so imagine you're walking on the street and you see a poster for this movie called venom but instead of this menacing character with these big drooling teeth like the alien zeno more see three girls who are taking a picture with venom like he's an instagram boyfriend that's how this movie was marketed overseas. Where it's like. Hey it's your your ailing. But it wasn't like it was more leila when stitch then it. Is this dark anti hero comic book. Moving van amendments lamela. I i agree that that would be a wild shock. If that's what you see and then you go see it. And it's completely different totally but i am curious jacqueline based off of what you were just saying. Does that mean that some countries didn't get the gold that was turn in the wind. Like are there some major lines that are missing overseas universal. Oh jokes are funny. Everywhere about poop emoji was in the emoji. Movie that translates into every language knows amounts. Everybody poops what was there like. Everybody poops some more or was it everybody. Poops paragon is wrong and let us know. If there's ebony poops that above my toilet all through college out here though without without talking more about tom hardy because we talked about mark hoffmeyer and both be in mark and i'm pretty sure roxie also this because it's been very well documented. There's been several news stories about tom. Behavior both on and off set. You know him doing press junkets and being like is doing this or onset being like i don't know if this directors doing even mad max movie that was nominated for eleven academy awards and won six Tom hardy and pretty much. Everyone involved in that bothell is going to be a colossal disaster and he was very open Li like against during the filming Didn't get along if you ever want to see the sort of oral history on what went down Cow buchanan of new york times really. Did this really in-depth breaking of that. Doubt apparently venom was the same situation. Tom hardy thought he knew better. And you know he was hurt onset saying you know. I'm not saying that it sounds stupid. And as the dialogue in my personal opinion is the weakest part of this movie again. I just i wonder what was going to be there. And knowing now that the sequel we're gonna get new director. Andy circus correct any circus. Mr frigging motion capture. I'm so here for it. There is no way him and at tom. Hardy are not to be on the same crazy train. And i am here for it. Apparently finished shooting it. They wrapped principal photography. And there's probably going to have to go back and do re-shoots and maybe they're trying to work that out now with the cova protocols but roxy look i'll tell you this i think this is a rotten movie. I enjoyed the hell out of parts of it. But this is like i. This is like an athlete playing on a rookie contract where they have to prove themselves and the box office alone proved that we went from having venom. Is he going to be good enough. You're gonna make the cuts to be the mcu to now. It's like you can't deny them in the mcu anymore because you had more b is coming out which has michael keaton reprising his role from spiderman. And eventually. you're going to get venom somewhere. Whether we get more. We're going to get carnage. We might get shrieking the sequel. There's a lot of stuff to look forward to whether you love the first movie like roxie did or you thought it was a little ridiculous but you still kind of want to see more of the character. Yeah i feel like jacqueline. You just said it mark you just said it and this is how i feel. I left this movie. And even with the announcements of who's going to direct and everything just being so excited about another one. All i want is a venom too. I wanna know what happens with him in an. I'm a lover love shippers ships. i need to know. I know that people didn't look at this as the romcom that i look at this and spiderman three but whatever everything to me is a rom com like i got to know what happens there And i just. I feel like that shows that there's value to a movie if you walk out of a moving. You're like i want more of that. I need another one of those. I wanna spend more time with those characters. I wanted what happens in that story line. Then that means did something right. Something right i did like the carnage seen with. Yeah i did too. I did too. But i will say that like. We don't always get the sequels that we want. Because i'm still waiting for a reimagined. Heather's that isn't trash. We're not gonna talk about that. tv show. We're on the same page on that one. So but i will say this though regardless of what happened in this movie if it had a fan audience or not if something makes a billion dollars. They're going to figure out a way to make a sequel. Yeah absolutely i have a question. Jecklin breath this up. This is producer. Louis again hello. You mentioned boobs venom. Can you tell us a little bit more about that because that for me. I loved venom by the way. And then i. I was a little bit taken aback. Michelle williams spoiler alert becomes and they put boobs on venom and that is never not going to be weird but still couldn't turn away could not turn away from it. Wou- ooh lanao. I just put that. it's always gonna be in. My memory is hardy. Making out with symbiotic michelle williams. That woman has won a golden globe and emmy and she's been nominated for several oscars and they put boobs and assembled on her booms every second or as the characters from hocus pocus to call them. Sorry it's just is what disney. Let them get away with. I think we've got pretty much all the bases covered here. Boobs turds lobsters zanthoens gum roxy. Have you showed them to one of your friends. Who didn't know that much about the movie and did they like it too. Is this a movie. You can recommend a friends or is this a movie that it's you're gonna recommend it to somebody who's not familiar with it. You have to give them like a one hour talking to about how to approach it. It's definitely a concerning movie to recommend to anybody Because you feel feel protective over this movie so when anybody goes into watch it. I have to say things like go in with low expectations. But the fact that i have to say that for a movie it doesn't bode very well for the movie. I say things like critics gave it thirty percent. So i haven't shown it to anybody yet who didn't think it was really good but because i gave him the spiel before you guys know it's like when you have that friend from college and you're introducing them to your professional friends and when you're professional about to meet them you have to say to them like all right. I have to tell you that we've been friends for a long time. I don't know that'd be friends with them if we met today. He's got kind of a history like you kind of have to preface it. All venom must preface movie. And that's how i know there's some legitimacy what jacqueline was saying about the dialogue. There's some legitimacy there some dialogue could use a little tweaking. There's some parts that could use a little little more sugar wilmore spice but in general. It's a phenomenal movie okay. So we'll see eight. That caveat from iraq. See i know it hurt the damning that come out of your mouth just like venom on your lips. Oh she's back air. It is it is i. I wanna do lucy. We do a follow up episode to this where roxie shows it to her grandfather. Popho and anna. And we get i wanna get rockies grandparents reaction and i think they would say i don't get it that often when i showed them things or when i ask them to complete the lyrics to walk. They say i don't get shouldn't parents do it. My mother's like. I'm not watching this stuff and actually i'm gonna go ahead and say mother usually says i'm not washing whatever white stuff you're trying to show me and i'm not gonna lie the women. That's just what she says. I don't need that nonsense lago to lie on the woman. She birthed me. That is exactly what she says. Real quick though roxie. I know you're not gonna maybe show it to people but real quick we do have to say all right. Give me the line. Gimme the seeing. Give the one moment that when people try to talk about venom that you're look here. Turn your attention here. I do feel like it is the convenience store stuff because throughout the movie that has a lot of heart and you're just rooting for him to do the right thing. And by the time that we reach the end where we see that venom stand up for a woman who's just trying to make ends meet and support and provide for family and and she is in a position where a lot of people get put in where they are dealing with bullies venom takeout the bully. And i think that that's what makes him anti hero in this situation where he's not great but there is a way worse out there and that to me is a huge huge a message of this film. Don't you guys wanna see a buddy cop movie where venom and eddie are. The buddy cop duo fight crime together. I think any hitches. Yes yes yes i do wanna see that. Thank you for asking. It was a lot more wake mark wahlberg and the teddy bear from tad than i thought would be. You know but it's a movie that they wanted to make for a long time as evidenced by the sony. Email leaks because they were iterating. This movie forever. They're trying to figure out how to get to work. Avi read one of the producers. Had he's the one that basically said. Hey sam rainy You're getting a little too. Sam ramey for this trilogy and we need you to get back into what we think. The fans want to see so we need to have them in this movie which is why then them feels so shoehorned. Sorry roxie at the end of spider man three and now then i'm did have his spotlight to do whatever the hell it was. He did and he made a crap ton of money. So i feel about this movie. Now in retrospect because i was loving the phantom menace when i first saw because it star wars and of course i'm going to love it but then you start to come down from your high and you say okay. Well it may not have been a great movie but it gave us a great template. Now we have a starting point. We're often running so every star wars fan whether they want to admit or not you saw phantom menace and then you're like okay. Well now we can now attack on a close is going to be great and then we saw revenge the sit. That's the one we really been waiting. So i think there's going to be a wire still waiting on which venue ass matters shows the fallacy. Hey you know what venomous popular. We're gonna get a next one regardless of what we think about it. I think clearly audiences voted with her wallet. They voted with their heart with that. Eighty one percent So in that respect is just another critic proof movies so yes i will go ahead and say i think rotten tomatoes is right. I'm not gonna die on this hill. i'm definitely gonna still stand for the lobster tang of it. I will stand for that for a long time. Like i will be like. You just need to watch that section to understand that it's great. I wish everything surrounding it wasn't as bad as it was. And you know what. Maybe the next venom movie. They can like filter through that. Anti circuses talented dude. I i'm gonna put faith in them but about your oxy. I'm guessing you're firmly rods. Made us is wrong. i am. I feel like ron. Tomatoes was really wrong on this one. I stand with the audience. I would be even higher than them but there is one part of this movie that gets me every time i watch it which knocks some major points and that is when rizza med gives his pin to the little girl and then we see him walk away and the pain is still on his frigging shirt a lack of continuity there every time so this would almost be a perfect movie but that definitely knocks at some points the dialogue things. I know get knocked. This movie for there is the continuity person was out with a cold that day. And that's what you're going to. That's what is it was on purpose. What if it was like here little girl in front of everybody and then right as he turns away like screw. You like giving you my pin honestly. I've made a lot of backstories here. I have all different things like did. He have another one in his pocket. Did somebody sneak it to him. Did he take it back years a lot of possibilities but they didn't explain in knocks a few points but in general yes rotten. Tomatoes is very wrong here. I'm with the audience. I'm a person of the people. Guys the people roxie mark is very strong with her opinion. And i love how roxie is able to talk about how much she loves the movie and localize it her taste because it takes the pressure off me to also have to say this is a fresh movie because it's just it's just not it just not quite fresh. It's fresher than thirty percent. But it's still a rotten movie that i can enjoy and got one the greatest lobster scenes in movie history besides naked gun two and a half which as we all know has the funniest lobster seen annie hall has entered the chat and she'd like to have a word. But that is a podcast episode for another day on a roxy before you get out of here though What you recommending for folks to check out in the waning months of twenty twenty. You guys know on the tv gal. So i'm going to give you a tv rack but it does kind of play like a docu series movie and it is so different than what we're talking about with venom but this is a show that not enough people are watching And it has me up at night freaked out and that is the vow For anybody who hasn't seen the now. This is the nexium sex colt heathrow neary Docu series that goes into the behind the scenes of how this all took place It's it is mind blowing. Lee disturbing To me there's nothing spookier than watching this. I couldn't talk talk with something. I couldn't take my eyes off of. You can't look away. And i just think that they did a really phenomenal job with the stock you series and clearly them bringing what's going on to light has made a huge difference in the public eye and the court of the people and the actual courts as well. So i'm an guys is going away for a long long time in twenty years. I'm already on the stars documentary about apu. Sii watch them now. Basically my nightly ritual is. I'll take my. Shall we say medication for those people who are not in california. And it's a little gummy medication. And it's sometimes it's it's in liquid form and it's awesome and see. Yeah yeah vitamin c. To keep key energized. And i will slowly drift off into dreamland listening to. What's going on with the vow and so in a weird way. I'm kind of in the next game called deeper than i thought i would be. Because like. i'm listening to keith. Rene teachings as on basically falling asleep every night for the last three weeks and under the stars documentary and so. I don't know what the next step is. I'm going to start doing with under armor now. The podcast. Because that's where i am. I literally went. Actually i went podcast to the vow back to the podcast and now i'm like okay. I'll turn on the stars documentary. When they get a few episodes. And because like why did this girl stay secret because india's already out. She's suspect in my opinion. She wasn't in the vow. Mike what are you hiding girl. But that's me i'm with. You must get to the bottom of all of this. Like what is she hiding. But you can check out venom on fandango or voodoo judge for yourself about the entire movie about the boobs about the turns in the wind and of course about the lobster tank. Let us know what you think though because we want to hear from you if you think we were right if tomatoes was wrong or if you want to recommend new movies for us to maybe check out the next time mark where can folks find you alive correct and you can find me. Live is sh maybe not on stage as much as i like to be in this current climate but you can find across all social media platforms at mark ellis live and you can also email me and wanna say i mean us at the show. Let us know how we're doing our t. is wrong at rotten. Tomatoes dot com. That's rt is wrong at rotten tomatoes dot com. What us know what you like about the show what you think. We can improve upon if anything and give some movie recommendations. Where does some rotten movies. You think should be fresh. Some fresh moves. You think are totally rotten. We love hearing from you all and we appreciate all the lakes and the support and the love. The we've received in our little time doing this year program yes and roxy work and folks find you and more importantly what do you want them to be on the lookout for. What are you doing upcoming lady. Everywhere at roxie stryer. I do a daily youtube show on like two hundred and twenty seven days into quarantine of every single day gone live on youtube dot com slash roxy stryer which has been wild an awesome. That's huge thank you. Thank you every new. Hearing that i know i don't want anybody to be alone again. Different therapy conversation for it's a cold cold live at the roxy. It's just a cold you tune in every day. That's the deal and thank you so much for bringing back as your i repeat guests you know maybe third time's the charm so we'll just have to wait and see but i love coming here you guys and you do amazing job so thank you. Well thank you ma'am and now the second time is definitely the charm your once twice a lady and in your times a lady. It'll be even better the once and twice We've got a double episode next week right. Mark i believe we get to talk about ace. Ventura the landmark nineteen ninety-four comedy hit took the world by storm. That showed us the meteor. That was jim carey and talk ace to the sequel. So i think we're doing both in one episode. It's going to be action packed. We have a very special guest. That's going to be joining us. So i am so looking forward to that. I haven't gotten a gush about jim carey and his magical nineteen ninety four in a bit and i cannot wait to do it for all of your smiling. Eardrums out there owned by the way jaclyn. You're at bat jacqueline. Yes on this thing. I mean you know. I was just going to be like that. It's right martin and again folks can find me on the interwebs at that jacqueline. Because i'm that girl that talks about movies and i'll very excited talk about ace ventura to to go ahead and take a little flyer out here say that we're going to have to address some nineties. Comedy please hold up. I'm excited to talk about it and To see jim carey. Talk out of his. But let's be honest time. Signed morten hagen. Thank you so much for listening to rotten tomatoes wrong and we'll see you guys back here next time.

tom hardy thirty percent roxie jacqueline eighty one percent tom eddie brock eddie roxy jacqueline coley Hardy rizza fifty one percent ruben fleischer life foundation cindy haute catherine mcglaughlin finau tori preston Jacqueline jacqueline mark
Special Episode: All About Baseball [113]

The Editors

1:14:20 hr | 2 years ago

Special Episode: All About Baseball [113]

"Hi, Andrew, Sanctis, and along with David French, I co host the ordered liberty podcast, David, and I break down the latest political news with a focus on the importance of culture and religion. In American life are episodes are available twice a week and can be found on itunes, Google play Stitcher tune in or on national review online. Who win the American League pennant who win the National League pennant. When will the barbaric pointless and cruel practice of forcing pitchers to hit finally and in this country and should the shift one of the worst innovations in baseball history be banned. We'll discuss all this and more on the special October baseball edition of the editors on rich Larry, and I'm joined by at baseball crank. Dan McLaughlin the Dettori is and the d. Michael, Brendan Doherty and stealth. Jason Epstein are very special. Thanks for being here. Jason. You're listening to a national review podcast, quick public service announcement. If you're listening to this podcast and Nash reviewed dot com, divide it to have you. It'd be easier. Sorry, this like an inside joke that only Jason. I can appreciate. We're delighted to have you put it'd be easier for you better for us. He made us part of your feet at Google play Stitcher, tune inner itunes. And if you like, what you hear here, please consider reviewing us on itunes if you don't like what you hear here, please forget. I said anything. All right, so we can just situate everyone for our our listeners and establish our credentials and our biases. Here. This is an extreme northeast tilted discussion. We have three Mets fans, Dan, Michael, and Jason and one Yankees fan here around the table. Dan McLaughlin his credentials need. No further support. His Twitter handle is at. Baseball. Cranky has a screaming baseball head at his as Twitter, avatar, and we established last year, spends his spare time trying to figure out if there's a way mathematically to establish how Walter Johnson's pitching stats with translate into different eras. Michael Brennan Dorothy is the founder and publisher of slur baseball newsletter that you all should check out and Jason Epstein knows more about the contemporary game than I think anyone. I know the warning about Jason is that he is such a statistical obsessive that you'll start a conversation and think it's going great. And then slowly will just feel all the joy and the romance of the game being sucked out by these terrible dry abstractions that Jason is obsessed with. So let's let's go around the table and talk about where we see the postseason going and and what we thought of the season that is just past. And so let me start with you Dan, who, and your. Commission is going to win the American League pennant. Well, that is really the big question of the day because the National League field is so overmatched that you know, you never say that postseason series is a foregone conclusion because upsets are a fact of life. But there is no question that the World Series will be big upset this year of the National League pennant winner wins at no matter who represents either league. You know, my my thinking is still that what this comes down to the Red Sox. The Astros I think if both teams firing on all cylinders, Astros are still the team to beat. I think they just have more weapons. They have better weapons. They go very deep into their bullpen, middle relief, their their staff aces you know, I think of Carlos Correa is hitting. He's the biggest wildcard on that team. You know, I got to see. I happen to be in Houston in August to see Josh James make his major league debut, and you could hear his fastball, PA. Topping from the upper deck. And so when you have guys like him and forever Valez that you add to the frontline staff, you know, sometimes having those young guys who can just come out and throw flame in the middle innings are such a big factor in the in the postseason. We've often seen that from God's like, you know, like Marianna Rivera and Francisco Rodriguez who went on to become a closers later on, or, you know, even if you go deeper back into Mets history, being able to bring people like sit for Nanas or way back in the day, Nolan Ryan out of the bullpen. I think it's sixty nine. The Mets had Ryan come in one game and he threw seven innings in relief against the Braves. So I think all of that, I think at the end of the day, my money would be on the Astros, but obviously this is a formidable Red Sox team and they're a little more predictable than the after that that sounded at popping. One of the greatest sounds in the game. Remember just being a kid and going to see a game that memorial stadium, which was the closest a ballpark to suburban. Virginia, where where I grew up and the Yankees were playing the the Orioles and just goose Gossage. I don't even sure he came into the game, but goose Gossage just warming up was one of the most exciting things that happen because if we're in the epidemic and you hear that pop pop pop, so Michael Brennan Dougherty who's gonna win the American League pennant we got, we got Houston on the table. I okay. So my head says, Houston is going to do it for pretty much all the reasons Dan mentioned, but I don't think we should sleep on the Indians in this first series. I think they have bats that can wear down a pitching staff. They have a bullpen that is built for the postseason injure Miller's, not at his heights of two or three years ago, but. This this is the Cleveland is is being forgotten in these previews. And I do think. You know, Francis Francisco door Jose Ramirez, Jason kitten is this this lineup really can bang and. You know, we've also seen, you know, some Houston pitchers, lay eggs in in big moments, not counting their World Series run, so I don't know. I, that would be my first round. Look out is in the American League, look out for the Indians and if they can get through Houston, I think they have a shot of of winning all, frankly, Jason go independent in the American League. I'm going to say not the Cleveland Indians spirit. It's a team that won ninety games or ninety one games and it's the weakest division. I think we've seen perhaps in our life in our lifetimes, really, I mean the any of the other east to sense. Any other any other. Any other team in the American League central you could argue has some serious really serious questions going into next season. It's it's the winning percent. The winning percentage was awful for the second place team, which was the twins. I also wonder where you go after kluber and Bauer. The Astros and the Red Sox are just two powerhouses and I do agree. I do agree here that you could flip a coin between either club. The Red Sox offense is is quite formidable when the Red Sox won in twenty thirteen and they had that surprise. Worst I finish the reason for it is that every position player except for third base, I think it was middlebrooks was playing third that year had an above average season. When you look at their career stats and you, you could argue that maybe it's because JD Martinez is in the lineup and so it it, it, it lengthens the lineup, it gives protection. You could argue that maybe change in hitting. I think they had a change of hitting coach, chili Davis left. I think that may have played a role, but the question I think will be will the Red Sox offense be able to overwhelm the Astros pitchers even even though I agree with Dan, that the that the the ability to go from one pitcher to another very quickly and they are all very capable of recording outs. I still think the Red Sox probably are able to overcome that. Say, if there's a surprise it's going to be as not the Indians. I mean as the last half season were one of the best teams in baseball. They had the best road in the major leagues, but I'm going to be conventional here. I'm gonna say Houston is going to the World Series. I thought all year long despite the fact that they lag the Red Sox and for a goodly portion of the season yet lag the Yankees that they are the team to beat and the American League because a strength starting pitching which I think will tell over a seven game series against the Red Sox. So Dan, let's move to the National League who's gonna be the pennant winner in the senior circuit? Well, before the season, my answer was the comes, you know, a little over twelve hours ago. I think my answer was still the comes, but you know, the postseason is nothing if not unpredictable, and there's always something new you haven't seen before, and that's what we saw. Last night I'm going to go with the dodgers the dodgers just type the. I mean, none of these terribly strong teams, but I think the dodgers have a lot of different, you know, different weapons and much like the Astros they are something of an inconsistent team, but one that really, really can get you if they get everybody pointed in the right direction. Michael, the dodgers are the best run differential for the year. I think the pitching stuff is healthier now than it's been almost all of the year. You know there are questions about their their pitching in the playoffs. I mean, I remember that they were beaten by the young Mets team a few years ago that overwhelm them on pitching front when that wasn't supposed to happen. And when Zack greinke he was part of the dodgers so that there are questions, but it is a week is a week National League field. The dodgers are deep, they can survive one or two, their batters going cold. I think in any of these series. I'd be interested for I interested for a case for another team if can be made. I think I think it case can be can be made for particularly the brewers ninety four ninety four wins interesting that they win game one sixty three. And as a result, they gain home field throughout the National League play offs. I would still pick the dodgers because I do think they have. They have better depth, but it's interesting Milwaukee made some very controversial moves before the trade and before and after the trade deadline and none of it seemed to make sense at first people, the players seem to be out of position. But as a result, they've got versatile individuals who can come off the bench. Travis Shaw is has had an amazing season in yet. We may find that he's coming off the bench in some of these games. Jonathan scope is is, is another option. Miss Dhaka's seems. To have done pretty well. I think the big question Mark with the brewers is the volatility of a bullpen, right? They had. They had the worst bullpen until they had the best bullpen in that all within this season. In fact, even within the second half of the season. I, but I do agree. I don't think. Do you think though one might scenario for the brewers getting through would be to do something like. You know, they're relief pitcher Barnes. This this guy is just come up. Everyone expects him to be a starter. Eventually, if he has kind of like the DVD price run that David price had for the raise in two thousand when eight when they went against the Phillies or two. It doesn't seven thousand two thousand eight was when they lost to the Phillies right? Where where you have this guy is going to be a starter, but he has an unbelievable run play offs as a late bullpen option. I could see that happening and him being a difference maker. He's a difference maker already already for them, but. You'd have to see something like that and on the offense aside, just one more thing. I mean, we'll talk about MVP votes in in a little while, but I mean, yelich is Yellen and Ryan Braun is hitting you, have you have you are? I mean there there is some balance. There is some balance there. Forgive me in terms of the Braves, but I, I'm not sure as we went as we came into this to to the chamber here, I'm not sure what is the latest on Debbie Swanson whether he's going to be playing, I just don't see them having being able to their rotation being able to match up against against the other opponents aggressor sedan. Who are your MVP winners in the American and National League the National League? I think you have to go with the the the most. I mean, I think you have to go with the most traditional picks for both of these which is yelich and Mookie Betts. I mean, look, obviously, Mike trout is still the best player in the American League. You know, that's sort of. A continuing thing. But you know, trout did not stay healthy for the full season and his team didn't go anywhere. And you know vets did. Both of those things. Vets is just a very conventional MVP. You know, classic guy who's a really good player, Evan a career for a pennant winning team and yell. It's really a guy who was a difference maker in such a huge way for that that for steam. So I think that those are just the obvious and easy picks like a. Yeah, I can't really be contrarian. Mukhi beds three forty six with a one. Oh seventy. One hundred twenty nine runs thirty two home runs and thirty steals. I mean this is this is an element of the game that was supposedly dying and he's just added so much value to the Red Sox team. He's finished runner up an MVP voting before and he's he's totally had the best season and. And I think in the in the nationally, you default to yelich. Yeah. I mean, unless you want to give it to like a pitcher, but I, I don't think you should this year. Right? I mean, the closest I guess the closest candidate would be heavier bias. Look in terms of in terms of yelich. He had the good fortune of being on the stage for game. One sixty three, the tiebreaker and he performed and he was. He was what everyone was talking about how he buys what happened to be on the field at the same time as well. He made it very good defensive play, but he also had that high profile strikeout as well. It's unfair of course to judge based on one game. But certainly if you're if you were on the fence before game one sixty three, this was the tipping point. Yelich will win it. All all the the question that brings up an interesting question of sort of how MVP's get elected because as we all remember, I think traditionally. In more in the pre internet age. Very often, the writers had reached a kind of consensus on the MVP was usually at around the beginning of September. And we've actually seen a number of MVP races probably would have gone a different way if the writers that actually waited until the regular season was over to form that consensus. But I don't know that that dynamic really exists anymore in the age of the internet. I think people are more plugged into what you know less plugged into, having a narrative building exercise and more willing to to watch things develop all the way to the end. Sure. And it's it's by the way it's worth pointing out. I think I wrote about this in in at some time ago. I think we've also the win the creators of the MVP award got together. I don't think valuable was meant convey what is how it's been interpreted today. Valuable. I don't think was ever meant to say, well, did his team did his team win with him? I think it was not meant to to to to. To to to put that forth. I think that if Mike trout is the best player in the league, he should be recognized Mookie Betts deserves the award in the American League. He has the highest easily has the highest wins above replacement. In fact, number, in fact, it's it's, it's, it's incredibly high. If it's ten point, nine. If if be worst. Yeah, it's historic. My trout had not gone the injured. He might actually have been as high as twelve. Baby now is not the right time to get into it, but there was a conversation helps. Where about how much value would Mike trout bring to the angels if you if you if you prohibited him from sliding because his injuries have all been, he's he, he's slid hit. I and he, he injured his hand, and then you slid feet first and he's still injured himself. So it's an interesting. It's an interesting question. How valuable would he be if you took out all of his base running ability? And the answer is you probably still be quite valuable and we may have to continue another day the debate over the original public meaning of most valuable player shucks. So Michael Cy Young, both lakes in, I don't. I mean, you can make a case for a more in Philly, but I just think Jacob degrom year was so outstanding, so consistent and it just is going to be the second time this decade where the Mets have a science. Pitcher and finish pretty low. Jacob degrom is is having his career year. I can't imagine a year better. The I, I don't think it's goes on. I think he put an exclamation point on it in the last week of the season and as for for the American League. I think. Ken Rosenthal. Another is making a case for Justin Verlander based on quantity number of innings pitched, and I totally agree. That quantity has an underappreciated quality in now in age when we're so used to stats per inning and and. You know per game, but. I think Blake's Nell, edges edges amount from Tampa Bay, Blake snow like Jacob, degrom his a career ear, fantastic year. I think his ear as about a third of a run lower than Burland IRS. I also think it's, you know, in years like this when you have to close candidates. I like to spread the word award around to a team that is not in the postseason that gets such a superlative performance and so- Blake's now for me, Jason, what are your picks? And is it even close on Graham? I don't even know why it would be an issue. It's it's more as or more had a great year for Philly. Yeah. No, no, no, no did have very Nola did did have a very good year, although he tailed off a little bit toward the end just like his ball club so that he'll take a little bit of hit for that Michael's point, though is is, is worth repeating, and that is everyone expects max Scherzer do now. Jacob degrom is not didn't come out of nowhere. Blake Snell came out of nowhere. Degrom didn't come out of nowhere, but the absurdity of it all, even those individuals who still value the win, don't wanna kill. It can see that this was just beyond the pale that when you have a higher wins above replacement, then actual win, that just doesn't make sense. So I think the fact that that it was so out this so so much of an outlier that it will help that will help Graham and that everyone feels incredibly sorry for him. Snell I, I would agree. Normally, I would agree with the Rosenthal position about endurance, not getting injured, going, deep into games matters. Here's argument, but you said that the difference between he RA an era plus between the two is probably significant enough that it that's Nell is able to overcome. I would also very quickly add. I've always been of the position that when you play for losing team, it's harder to get motivated when people are just cashing checks. Then when when you're in a pennant race, everyone is pardon the pun juiced, and it's there's an excitement that that that that builds. But that's just me. I think in the National League there to there to reasonable choices. One is you could take the award and you can give it to Jacob degrom. And the other is you can take the award and drop it in the dumpster and set it on fire to Graham just had such an amazing year. He just defines what you know what pitching what pitching is all about and what pitching under adverse circumstances is all about. And you know, I, if I go back to Walter Johnson says some of the other, you know the great, the great to have laboured. You know, Tom Seaver Nolan Ryan, who have labored on teams that gave them nothing to work with. I think you have to put that award out there as an honor for that in the American League. Also gonna go snow. I also a very big fan of of Rosenthal's argument. I've argued for for years about this that that, I guess Michael and I are both quoting Stalin here. On want. But. At least an apocryphal Stalin quote, perhaps. But I mean, I do think the innings matter a lot, and I do think that in ranking pitchers, both within seasons and historically, I think that we ought to give a lot more credence to that. But I know this will sound somewhat hypocritical since I'm just talking about the ground. But look, I think, you know, I think it a very tight race here between Snell invert Lander and and Chris sale who you know, maybe it was the best pitcher in the American League, but you just can't give it to a guy who doesn't even qualify for the title. But I think that Snell's wins are factor too that you can look at and say, okay, if you're going to knock this guy for not having drone as many innings, the fact is he wasn't pitching for his good at team as sailor ver- Lander any still, you know, he's still was out there enough to get all those wins. And I, you know, I think in a very, very close race, you still give a little bit of respect to that. There's one, you know, the one thing. Those writers live for Lander and they love the like laid career rejuvenation story like Verlinden, but they lust after his wife, right? Let's let's let's be clear. And and you know lender, sorry, Michael, I just I just I like the story of early under to like if you're if writers are trying to close story loops, I thought that was done when he when he wanted when he wanted all. So I I, that that's another reason I think to default this now, but Vert Lander. I mean, one thing and looking forward October, and I know September is often not a good predictor of October, but I mean for lane to, you know, for guy who started the season, absolutely like the same house on fire ended last year, and then really kind of went in a funk for a couple of months. But he, he went worrying. He had a great month of September, and at least that if you're thinking in terms of sort of the older veteran Haas who maybe was you know, sucking little wind or conserving a little energy in the middle of the season. He looks right now like a guy who is ready to just, you know, pull out all the stops, go all the way. And certainly as you. Go into the postseason with a guy like ver- Lander, you know, and he's not like somebody like Kershaw that you, you feel like you need to keep in case carbonite for the regular season at this point, but in the hopes of maybe just once seeing the real Kershaw on October. But I think Verleger is exactly at the point of his career where there's just, you know, there's no pitch counts. There's no, you know, you just let him go as far as he can and and see what he can do. Just an obscene. Who are you? Rookies of the year is only one correct answer in the American League. I'm sure you wear this weight, but there are two Yankees up for consideration. So I'm a candidate with it. I think you, I think Otani will win it. I think he deserves to win it in part because obviously he's a spectacle he's good at his job. Unfortunately, he got injured, but I think he made it. I think with rookie of the year, it's almost like manager of the year where, yes, numbers matter, but it's but I think storyline. Is is quite important in the national in with Otani it, isn't it? Fantastic. No, the guy is this week getting Tommy John surgery, and yet he's still going to be pencilled in the lineup next year. I think that's that's absolutely remarkable. He'll be the d. h. for the angels, it's going to be very, I guess, pool hosts will now if he comes back, we'll have to play first base which should be an adventure, but but Otani will win. And I think he deserves to win no offense to to your to your Yankees on the national National League side. There's some deserving candidates. I think the intriguing issue is how much should defense play into into the award, and there's a case to be made for the cardinals Harrison baiter because he seems to be the darling of stock cast and and other defensive statistics. But. We're we're unclear exactly how valuable he is. I think what everyone can easily quantify is Ronald Acuna twenty years old hundred eleven games. I think he owes over nine hundred. Maybe I see here. Yep. Nine twenty three. He's a major reason why the Braves are at night are ninety wins and won the National League east. And so I think he'll beat out. He'll beat out his competition including Soto of the one Soto. Another highly regarded young player. One of the questions you have to ask with the the rookie of the year, of course, is, is always that balance, not just between production at narrative, but between production and potential. And I think there's going to be a big factor. A lot of the writers looking at a Kuna and saying, you know what? Five years from now, we're all gonna look silly. If we didn't give this guy the award, you know, you're always have those guys who who come in second for the award to somebody who you know is is maybe having a little bit better ear and the guy who finished his second waltz into Cooperstown couple of MVP's and all. And I think people are going to feel like that about kunia. I think you know another guy who had a early impressive rookie year to in the National League Walker pillar, but the dodgers and how can you not love a guy who's Twitter handle is feelers day off in the American League. You know, if you talking about advanced, that's I think by wins above replacement, the top rookie in the American League was Joey Wendell. And the question of. How much does defense matter is big question with Miguel onto harsh specifically because I mean, the guy is just such an iron glove. On the other hand, there is also the question of, you know, a couple of years from now, maybe if he's not quite so terrible in the field and better with the bat, you're going to look back in feel ridiculous if you if you voted against him. I don't know. I might be I might be tempted to give it to gleyber tourists, but but it's it's it's a tough call. I see the narrative value for Otani on the other hand, looking down the road, I kind of have this creeping suspicion. We're going to look back at Otani's major league or kind of the we're the way we look at PO Jackson's. This is a guy that this was a guy who gave us some priceless spectacle and who did things that nobody else could do, but who did not have a long and productive and consistent major league career of, you know, punching the clock and putting wins on the board. There's some point there. I know whether it held held true, and of course. Energy played a season where I saw someone who did a run down. He had the highest exit philosophy as a hitter, and the highest throwing us. He has a pitcher like a month into the season or something just extraordinarily skills. Mike Lee, your rookies. I think you're going to go with Otani. I mean, it's just it's not only are the numbers kind of impressive. Even with injury. It's the spectacle matters in this sport and marketing matters in the sport and. You, you can't make a case for, but, but it's autonomy, right? I mean, this is the guy you want to watch right now. Right? I mean, you want to watch him pitch. I'm gonna watch him hit. I can't wait to see what this guy does. I'm not as convinced that he is. You know, going to be like this turn out to be like a gimmick. In retrospect, I'm not convinced of that. Because I think the the fundamentals are so good. They're so high. His skill as a pitcher is really high for his his age and for what kind of competition he was facing before he jumped into the major leagues and immediately looked amazing. So yeah, Otani is my ill rookie of the year. And I also agree with a coup Neha. Because you know he's one of these guys that he dragged his team into the playoffs. I mean, the. You know if. Yeah, there's there's really no one else. I mean, the the competition in the National League tends to be guys who who starts are obviously, you know, ten, you know, ten or twenty points behind him. You know, in batting average or slugging percentage or or any other category. I mean, he's he's the standout player, and he deserves to be highlighted is a great here, and you could really see the point right in August when he flipped the switch from, hey, this guy is really good for a twenty year old, and he's going to be selling special someday to like, oh, this guy is one of the best players in the National League. Now as fro Tani you know, I got to say if you're projecting I feel like when they when they do his wins of over placement next year, they should give them extra credit for every at bat that he costs Albert pools. I said, before we move on, I want to tell our listeners a little bit about and are plus or new premium digital subscription service on national review dot com. Sign up for enter. Plus you get access to all content, including print magazine content and web exclusive pieces that are behind our metered paywall on a row. You get almost entirely ad free experience. He see ninety percent fewer ads in particular on articles. You'll see no distracting and annoying ads. You get the ability to comment on the website which is only available to enter plus subscribers. Get to be part of our private Facebook group in the community and conversation there. And finally, you get invited to take part in conversations with writers or editors, and conservative news makers and get invited to events that are available to no one else. So please checkout and our plus we had some great first year pricing for you on the website. So Michael, we had a couple of months. Ago a an intense arguments here heels either before after a regularly scheduled editors podcast about the I'm a fan of the d. h. I think no one wants to see pitchers pitchers hit. They can't hit at least to the stupidity of American League pitcher is who we learn. Every season are unsuited even to run ninety feet have to run ninety feet. It ruined Jason Qingming Wong's career, and you know it don't deny it. You know, the American people know it and the National League just adds to strike outs and adds to nothing help happening during the offensive portion of the game. And supposedly this romantic argument, Chris increase a strategy, etcetera, etcetera. No-one sacrificed bonds anymore and pitcher's getting changed rapidly anyway. So please, Michael. Why can't the nationally get with the program and adopt the DA like the rest of baseball, with the exception of Japan's. Central League. If the NFL adopts the DA. Baseball will inevitably be destroyed. It will be transformed. And specially based on the logic you have offered. The only reason baseball doesn't evolve into a sport with separate offensive and defensive teams. Where you have, you know, nine guys were defensive specialists in the field in nine guys were just hitters is because the the, the NFL does not have the embodies the principle that he played both sides of the ball, the AL the DA is the exception to the rule. The other leagues maintain the exception to the rule as well. But if you if you remove this capstone, you're doing so on a principle that his revolutionary and in effect, the principal is there are better hitters than those pitchers and I wanna see the better hitters hit. That is an inevitable mandate that will be expanded to the next best guy who is defensive and can't hit very well it. It's it's a principal with no limiting artifact in except for the union. You know, just fighting about the number of players that come into the game. I don't think that's sufficient. I think I think you are. You're doing exactly what a conservative should not do. I mean, you basically are being indifferent. What principal you're allowing to try them. In this case it, you know, you can have guys, you know, especially we've seen in recent years, some amazing defensive players in the infield who are pretty weak hitters and strike out a lot. You're going to see the argument extend immediately. So I'm arguing from experience that that the American League's had the d. h. would forty five years. No one has suggested this radical, they can't because the NL exists. They, why couldn't they. Mike, couldn't they? Yeah. Why? Why could you. Just argue argue for this diverge too much from the NFL, but we. But what will happen is if you get rid of it in the NFL, it's no longer. There's no longer this embodiment of this idea that in the sport you play both sides of the ball, the National League. It's the last best. Hope it is the shining city hill. Loft the freedom flight. I'll take it. I'll take it step further the National League further further, the designated hitter I will kneel during Kate Smith's rendition. So why. I, I've come around to a to a degree. I used to think that the American League should jettison the designated hitter the idea that we needed some thirty eight year old over the hill guy being given a few extra plate appearances. Clogging up the roster when there are folks on the farm who could be brought up. I objected. I objected to that. You know what you, if you really, really, if you really really need a spot for them, put them at first base, not everyone has to be Keith Rene and does not. Every first basement has to be Keith, not every first basement has to be done. Mattingly. However, I've come around and I think that there is we no longer have leaked presidents. There. We remember back in the day, the National League didn't have a curfew. The American League had to curfews. So you had those twenty-something inning games that went till three AM. It's nice to have someone just re tweeted to follow nineteen seventy sports on Twitter. It's. It's hilarious. And he tweeted the the the TBS final score from that nine thousand nine hundred Mets Braves game to nineteen eighty-five. You need the one with RIC campfire fireworks. Three in the morning? Yeah. In recap, hit a home run to tie it right John. Sterling, John sterling did the coal the brain that was relatively restrained John sterling back then? Yes, he had no idea of what to what he would turn into, but what have you come around to you? I've come around to each league should decide its own designs. It's on faith and I, it's own fate, and I liked the idea of an American League. Having the Disney hitter nationally, having pitched pitchers hit. I do believe in the strategy. Why do you want to watch pitcher sit because some pictures can hint they had one twenty-six. If I go to angel's game, I wanna see Otani. That's one. Okay. That's the exception proves rule. Bumgarner the other exception. That's too. That's too too pitcher is also also we're getting by the way we're getting to a point right now. We're pitchers are throwing fewer innings that there are few pitchers hitting to begin with. So what you do is you you put you pulling a pinch hitter. So you still have strategy and you're not necessarily giving. Pitchers fewer plate appearances today than they've had in the past. So it's not. So it's not so disastrous as you as you point out through, it's it's better that you have pitchers hitting lists so you can actually exactly, but you have your strategy, you have. You have four. You have four position players left on the bench or five position players left on the bench. You have to choose who's gonna hit perhaps in the fourth inning. Now we're in the fifth inning. Where's the past? You'd have the pitcher automatically coming to the plate, three key you actually now you you've said it's a positive good that pitchers hitless. So I'm gonna say, let's go all the way and just not hang out and pitching unique lasts more strategy and accomplish more strategy accomplished pitcher, you have to focus almost entirely completely on pitching and you're not in the minor leagues you're not hitting so. So why does the National League insist in on on forcing these these, these poor guys. If you're asking me why actually persists, then we have to take off traditionalist conservative hats and put on air Marxist hats and point out that it is the labor union and management, and they're the economics of the d. h. that prevents it either from spreading to the National League or from being abolished in the American League, the fact of the matter is and I did you know deep dive on this years ago. I think the the numbers are not as dramatic now as they were at the time it comes and goes. But the fact of the matter is that having the d. h. drives off the cost of roster. Right? You've got another roster spot. Traditionally a roster spot inhabited by an expensive veteran slugger. Often, in fact what teams like the Yankees particularly will do, and you see this over pool halls, right? You sign a veteran, a veteran free agent guy in his early thirties who plays first base third base left field or whatever. And then halfway through the contract, he moves over to DHA and you signed some other veteran expensive. So the d. h. slot absolutely drives up the cost of a major league roster. And because of that, the union doesn't want to give it up. And because of that, the owners don't want to expand it to the National League. In fact, that's one reason why the owners prefer when they're making these moves as they've done a few times recent years to shift franchises between leagues, why all the owners would rather own National League club exit question on this topic, despite your retrograde views putting aside your personal preferences will the d. h. come to the. National League by twenty twenty two, yes or no, Michael Brennan, Dorothy. I believe the Commissioner is willing to push the envelope on this eventually. So yes, just no Manfred. Whenever he's asked about about a change to the rules promises, you'll think about it. He he'll do a lot of thinking not twenty twenty two not twenty twenty six either. I think it probably will come eventually. I don't know that it will come that soon. I think it's going to it's going to be a long March. I'm going to say yes, but this might be born an enlarge part by hopefulness. So let's talk a little about the shift dance. Something that has radically changed the way the game has played. I'm I'm a baseball performer there, all sorts of things I want to change. I'm not a fan of the argument. Oh, we can't monkey with this because this is the way it's always been. Does anyone really miss now visits over five or whatever the limit is, of course not complete waste of time in a delaying tactic. So I'm all about changes like that and I'm getting there on the on the shift. I I'm hesitant to do it because I think it's, you know, it's changing something in game rather than sort of the rules around the periphery of the game. But I think it's clearly made baseball worse. What do you think? I think that the shift is a strategy. And you can beat it with strategies and you could beat it with skills and we'd really be his. If you look at storage, we'd be going very much backward and backward in. I think bad way to try to ban the shipwreck because you go all the way back to the nineteenth century and there's rules about who can play where in the field, like you know, you're supposed to put the baseman, like right on the base and stuff like that. And and we evolved the way from all of that and it looked, the shift is not a new thing. I mean, they shifted like crazy Ted Williams, and they had these debates and Tuykov is basically like, oh, well, you know this, this Williams guy isn't much of a hitter because you know, I could've just bumped it on this, you know, and it, it helped Williams to hitting three seventy three eighty three ninety. But you know, you can beat the shift. We have seen people bumped on the shift, even people like Joey Gallo who, or very much not the kind of hitters who do that, and you really only have to do it a little more. There's so many other things like this in the game where you know. If you could just if you deter the other side from doing it, they'll stop doing it. They're never gonna stop shifting at all because you know the idea of positioning fielders based on the hitter is very ingrain. But I just, I think it's very, very hard to enforce rules on where the defensive players go in the field. This is not soccer. I, you know, I don't wanna see those kind of does you don't wanna see some playoff game decided because pyre ruled that the shortstop is that a position. So I think it'd be very easy. I think you just to players on each side of second base, one foot, at least on the the infield dirt and Jason. We've talked about this over the last several years and you've made Dan's argument that shift can be defeated. But if I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but your arguments you to feed it by hitting the ball in the air. And that's what we're seeing, and as a consequence and apart because you know more proficient pitchers were seeing more home, runs more more strikeouts and and fewer basis. Well, the game, the game reward. Engineer witty. We, we saw that with branch Rickey more recently. We saw it with Billy bean and THEO Epstein. And even someone like Brian Cashman has learned on the job and is now one of the better front office men even Brian Cashman, even Brian Cashman has grown, is grown is grown. He has grown up as rolling my eyes and sidelong glances at Jason when you're attacking Mikhail. Heard so much about Derrick jeeter defense podcast. You are going to endorse Lawrence trucks for that four. That's really good. We're headed right now. Why can we not reward ingenuity? Let the game correct itself. Now, admittedly, three, two outcomes. Williams s Estra DO's emergence guy who doesn't strike out, doesn't refuses to walk and looks like a turtle. Notwithstanding he's one player. Three two outcomes are on the rise, but you know what they've been on the rise since you outcomes means the walk, the strike out the homerun three outcomes. It's been on the rise though since nineteen ten. Eighteen seventy one eighteen seventy the percentage of balls in play. I did a study on this two percent or Balsam play has been falling persistently in always in one direction all the way since the very beginning of the game. So to to to to put this thank you to to put this all on shifting most of it on shifting would be a mistake when if you if new stadiums were built with deeper alleys, everyone, why is it? Why is everyone bringing the fences in? We're, we're, it's, it's, there's instant gratification. Everyone wants to see the home run and then there are concerned because not everyone could hit the home run, but we're tempting them to hit the home run. So the idea is going to see what's going to happen perhaps over the over the next several years, high school players, college players, minor league players are going to learn to bunt against the shift bunt for Basit, and by the way they don't even have to bunt for a base hit. If there's no field in nearby, they can even square around for sacrifice and walk. The first base, some of the some of the players will be able to slap the ball the other way. But right now it is more valuable if you're going. If if it is if the mound is going to be sixty feet six inches or not pushed back, if the fences are going to be in, it is more valuable to have player's swinging for the fences and shifting is not going to this. This is what ESPN or someone, Michael, did it a good piece about interviewing players? Why they can't defeat the shift or they don't try to and it's because a single is just so much less valuable than a double single. You get three singles, someone could score, maybe not not even necessarily so. So I, I'm not sure we're going to see a lot of bunting a lot of slapping the ball, the other way when power is always going to be more valuable. And you know, we've, we've adjusted things like, you know, the height of the mound when the game has become less enjoyable. And this goes to whether the the game is supposed to be cast an amber. Which actually never really has been or whether it's there for for the enjoyment of of us the fence. So I think the the recent more recent rise in three true outcomes has been lamentable. I think it's it. I think the games have seemed more boring. There seems like there's less action in an appreciable way at the very beginning of what I thought was an era. I was calling it the que era was strike outs, just jumped crazily in two thousand twelve twenty thirteen twenty fourteen I was excited about this era of dominance starting pitching now it doesn't look as rosy just as a pure entertainment product. However, I do think there have been unexplored. It. We've unac- underexplored the twenty fifteen royals and teams like them who have put pressure on defenses and council. Jess. You know, I do think there's more bumbling in the infield. I think there is less skill you know in the infield has for defensively. I got nice specially at the corners. Nine defenders and night l. festive. That's that seems. And you know you go back to the origins. I mean, look, why? Why did why were you know there are various reasons why ninety six percent of the balls were put in play in the eighteen seventies right part of it because you had. You know, you had took nine balls and for strikes to get a Walker strike out and all that. But you know, one reason there's a fielder didn't have gloves. So the percentage on putting the volume play within the fielders didn't have gloves was pretty good. Yeah. I mean, I mean, the biggest, the really big factor driving. This is the I, I think is the improvement of pitching over a century over century long improvement of pitching at a per pitch level, right pitchers. Give more effort per pitch. Basically there max effort per pitch every pitch, except for the occasional guy throws an office or a knuckleball so that the and that's driven the pitching innings down four pitchers because they're max effort. They don't. They don't back up off in more at bats. They don't. They don't trust their defenses as much for ground balls. And they have reasons for that. So if I think if baseball feels the emergency of. Three true outcomes rising. I think the first place to attack in rural changes would be limiting pitching changes per inning or or something like that to limit the specialization of pitchers from continuing. I mean, we're gonna see this more in the playoffs this year. We're going to see openers in playoff games. And more early pitching changes. And if you're worried about throughout comes, that's the first place I would attack, but I would. I would still wait. I would still wait to see what managers and players due to respond and try to find value in the game right now. Where's the imbalance to jets fan of openers I am. I am the first more runs scored in the first inning than any other inning. It is the one inning where the manager has set the lineup knows who's going to be hitting first second, third and fourth. In the first time it was used the season LaRussa used it for several games in Dunkin when they were in the as I think that was in ninety two maybe was it ninety two, Dan thereabouts. I mean, dick howser did something a little like this at the playoffs in five to basically essentially killed platooning in one series against Bobby Cox. But the idea when the raise I did at this year was that they were playing the angels and the first four batters in the angels lineup were right. Handed hitter. So Sergio Romo came in. The idea is not to have your closer not to have your eighth inning guy, whatever, but to have an above, average reliever start the game, throw max, throw all out. And for those people who are not big into numbers or believe in the intangibles players hitters have been interviewed, and they say it does mess with their minds a little bit because they're used to having a starter. They're used to the first four used to him getting used to him. And we talk about third time through the lineup. You're finally focused you, can you feel like you have him squared up, you know what? He's going to throw in this sort of delays it. It's it really upsets now as more almost half the teams have experiment with the opener already this season in one game or another. So it start. It starts losing its competitive advantage over time. If everyone starts starts using an open back on the ship exit question, Dan McLaughlin, the shift will be. Band and major league baseball by twenty twenty two. Nope. Michael, no. And I hope not h. e. double l. no, no, it won't. So let's get a little personal better fandom, Dan, who do you enjoy watching most right now in the game. I mean, obviously Otani is is something special unusual. I think the guys who I again, I still kind of put a bit of an asterisk on him. I think the break your players, particularly outside of. I mean, I, I have a low paid relationship obviously with the Mets. But I think outside of the Mets certainly took the most fun guy into game to watch right now is to there's just something special about a guy who said compact and that you know, has that traditional kind of short swing in and know isn't so much a just pure swing for the fences guy. But. So the guy like the most that's not a met probably is just Inver Lander. I love the comeback. I love the career resurgence. I love the old Hoss mystique. I liked that. He brings this element of the game that felt it's extinct, which is I'm going to throw, you know. I can imagine him throwing into the tenth inning right in in a game. It's like Jack, Jack Morris, Morris hype. The eleventh or ten I can imagine him doing that. If it was the right decision, probably won't be this doubt. The Astros would would do that. There's the certainly have relievers that are probably more valuable in the tenth inning. Then Justin Verlander would be after nine, but I love that element of it. I also like a soft spot for veterans like that of younger guys, altuve as greed. That's a great and obviously as a Mets fan, the most fun I had this. Here's Jacob degrom. I mean he was consistent like I haven't seen. Like almost in sports since you know, like watching the Utah Jazz in nine in the nineties, Stockton Malone you know, you know, twelve points, ten is's for Stockton, twenty four points and fourteen rebounds from alone. Every game like the Jacob degrom was unreal consistent. And he said a record for most consecutive quality starts and they were most of them are much better than quality starts. Kidnaps interestingly enough. Well, I will steer away from from the Mets because obviously every Mets player is fun to watch ex- except when I look at the box score the next morning. But having spent time in Washington and I really, really enjoy watching Bryce Harper Anthony Rizzo to for the Anthony result for the cops havi by is the no look catch and tag. I mean, it's just incredible. No, no, I don't recall anyone ever ever playing a middle infield position or third base like by. But in terms of Harper, I enjoy the fact that he busts it out of the box for every potential extra-base it and I am. I realized that he doesn't run out every ground ball. But I think it's an absolute ludicrous argument with all due respect to to skippers, even Joe Matt in that on a comebacker to the mound. It is incumbent on every batter even on comebacks to the mount touch first base. I think that there are more important ways to judge. I you know, in an age where players get injured players, get injured all the time. I say that over a one hundred sixty two game season, I will not. I will not have. I will not have a problem with an occasional dogging it out. You know, I've come around more of that view and I used to hate I, I'm a real parochial Yankee fan. A hated Robinson canot just for for this reason, hit watching them jogging down. I on on routine ground balls, but he stayed on the field. I don't know whether that's the reason he stayed on a field. They stay on the field, but what's absolutely inexcusable is the posing at home plate on a ball that you are not certain is going to be a home run in even in like big game situations. We'll see even in the postseason and understand why managers just don't strictly forbid it. Gentlemen, teams just strictly forbid fine. The players for doing it. I know they do it, you know, because they are going to be on ESPN and this part of the whole theater. The thing on fine with with theater, but not when you might be turning a double into a single when it really the extra-base could really matter. And you know the irony is that the all time champion of all the players, any of us have ever seen running. Every ground ball, like he had money riding on it was Pete Rose. My favorite player launch. Again. I'm very parochial Yankee fan. I really a play watch like to collective baseball games all year long that aren't Yankee games as by accident when a minute at a airport bar or something. So I, you know, I'll stop for Aaron. Judge is at bats every single time sort of route one Carlos Stanton as well. But you know, he struck out, I think twenty two two hundred eleven times and judge was hurt, struck out one hundred fifty two. I feel I saw every single one of those strikeouts so it seems so easy. You know, he's pitching low and outside on the corner and then more low and outside and even more low and outside and they're gone. They're done occasionally bus. Judge, you know, high and inside. But my favorite Yankee to watch is Didi gregorius I love the way plays let the fluidity of this Musharraf's or something so athletic and beautiful about it. Jericho, Derrick, you can play riches discovered. And he'll it'll choke up and you know, hit hit home runs just because because his a whip fast as bad as I love watching do gross Dan, who who have you enjoyed watching most during your lifetime? This baseball player, I gotta say, ultimately, I mean my my all time whenever I've asked my all time, favorite baseball player always mentioned very, very esoteric choice. Terry Leach was the side armor for the Mets was just to kind of quirky odd career, and he was one of these guys for a couple years. The Mets would just like they would drag him up out of the minor leagues and toss it into a spot start and Heathrow to hit shut out. And then you wouldn't see him again for two years starter starter and reliever one year, they throw them in the rotation because there I like top five sorters of gone down and he want he started the season ten ino-, but my overall my all time favorite, at least among non Mitch has to be George Brett. There was just nothing like George Brett. And the absolute like deadliest clutch hitter I ever saw and when he was healthy, his swing was so beautiful and such a flair for the big dramatic moments. Particularly if he was squaring off against goose Gossage was a cheater, but you know, there's this, we get. We could do rule lawyer Oregon on that stuff as well. But look that was an enormously entertaining whole thing. And you know, you cannot go every single time. They replay it. You cannot hold against was the first time. I mean, Brad is a guy who would heave himself over the dugout railings in the in the in the playoffs and heap is a guy who if you took a whole run away from him, he would lose his mind as we saw the pine tar thing. So he was just he was just such a fun fun guy to watch like. So my is a very personal on to my life and in the Mets. Being a Mets fan might favorite player to watch over time as like a cumulative experience was Carlos BELTRAN. I think the most criminally underrated met of all time. He gave so much value to the club. He's struck out in one big moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like if you look at his stats from those playoffs, it's unreal and cliff Floyd's shouldn't have been banning in that game, and but the my heart is with pitchers and my I gotta give Johan Santana got us the no hitter. He gave everything to the game, everything to the mount. His career was tragically shorter than I wish it had been. That guy was pure fire through his two team career really, and. I loved him. Outside of that, I've loved watching David price at his best when he really owns the mound. There's just nothing like it. I think in my life just I just a guy I just wanted to root for and thought was amazing, taste. I think it's no contest. I mean when I was when I first became a Mets fan, maybe round seventy the end of seventy four beginning of seventy five, Tom Seaver. I mean it was that was that was an easy call. I always tried to mimic waiting for the elevator in the in in my parents apartment building, I wouldn't be mimic I would be mimicking his his, his wind up over the over the head behind the head and then finishing up with dragging the right foot. And I never quite could get it right. I always thought some day I would. I never. And I was like, like so many other met fans young and old devastated by the trade. I mean, if it was a massacre that night Kingman also went, although Kingman was overrated by by many people. Then then then Gooden Dwight Gooden came along and just yes, keeps Hernandez gave us hope, but Gooden's rise in eighty four. A lot of folks also forget that Gooden's eighty four was historic five. Yeah, eighty five year the win total, but eighty four, his wins above replacement. We're off the chart his case her nine, his ability to limit hits, but also the fans showed up eighty four. The wave start in for the k. corner started in eighty four and it was just unreal. Finally, we could look at Yankee fans like you rich and just wait and just not have to shake our fist, but to be able to taunt you. Now the Yankees were starting. We're starting very slow decline at that moment. Engine that are petty person. Oh, you just do that now. Just. You're describing basically every bit's fan of. Younger brother syndrome, but I would also point out that in terms of Mets opponents, I always stop. You mentioned Aaron, judge today. I would stop whenever Jack Clark in the mid eighties and before that Mike Schmidt, but but also makes Schmidt continue playing a few more years when they faced off against Mets pitchers, you had to stop what you were doing in look because one, of course they were just so incredibly dangerous as hitters with such power, but also just had this larger than life look look to it. There were, there were others too, but I thought Schmidt and and Clark fit that role. Again, Yankee fan, if Newt non Yankee, it'd be too. It's bread for all the reasons that that Dan outlined Yankee, it's done Mattingly use my favorite player growing up the same way. Jason tried to mimic Tom Cevers pitching motion. I would Nimick Don Mattingly stance with the the pigeon toes, and I also have a real bias. And this goes to George Brett as well for left handed hitters. I think there's something on what it is or something more beautiful about left-handed swings. I'm a bias towards smart ball players who learn and improve when Mattingly came up. He couldn't hit left-handers. He actually worked on it and we'll behold, if you're talented and you work on it, you can prove. He also didn't have the kind of pop that he developed when he when he first came up and an excellent fielder. And when my great grits is I did not get see the the playoff gain here in New York. He only made it in the postseason once when the Yankees. Were the first wildcard team in the American League in nineteen ninety-five, but he hit a home run in game. One game two might have been getting to actually, and and this was the old Yankee Stadium. The place just went nuts now had had friends were there and just beards, raining down from everywhere. The stadium rocket supreme court Justice. Favorite pitcher Marianna river when that is height. There's just no one who's been better. I remember I think is in the nineteen ninety nine World Series Chipper Jones. The Yankees swept the Braves. Chipper Jones came up in the night. I think he broke his bat like three times in a row in one at bat and and the the Braves dugout was laughing because it was just so absurd how unhittable Rivera was. So Mike, let's go to your favorite season. Favorite season. I mean that I watched and and was the bitter end of two thousand six. You know, I was young when the Mets did their eighty six runs. I don't remember it very well. I remember being woken up when they won the World Series. That's it's, but two thousand six was beautiful and and run. I remember being at Shea Stadium early that year enjoying a crisp game by Tom glavin who is unbelievable that year. And you know it just it just ended like it did with a big, big curveball, but and that was that was a hell of run and we did it to with Pedro. Martinez was amazing that year. But basically in the playoffs, the the team was decimated, and it was down to John McCain and Ali Perez who stepped up in huge ways and pitched amazing in that playoff run his naps. Well, if we're talking about a happy ending, then of course twenty. One thousand nine hundred six would be would be my choice. I remember I remember where I was for the for the Eno for the I remember where I was pretty much the entire World Series as well. I remember for the for the parade down canyon of heroes. I remember getting there early getting ready to cut cut class before lunch. I guess to go down there and somehow when the film got developed because this is this is an era before smartphones, believe it or not. I was horrified to learn that. The only picture that came out to any degree was a shot of Randy Niemann who would not be on the team, make sure maybe the bullpen, you know a bow pin hand that was so disheartening. But no, it was just a fantastic season and because we we have to. Continue poking fun at Yankee, outnumbered Yankee fans all. But one of my Yankee fan friends rooted for the Red Sox in the eighty six World Series all but one that was on real, but not surprising demagogue and you know, I think I always have trouble remembering. I think Neiman actually might have been the guy who was spraying champagne in the Mets clubhouse. After the world championship when they had Frank Cassian live on TV and he's looking around and he says, you know, it's always the guys that contribute the least spray the most sham. Obviously, yeah, the the whole rise from the ashes from eighty four to eighty six as a Mets fan or something. You know, I think if I'm looking at the later met seasons, actually think the one that I got the most out of was ninety nine that whole, you know that that whole playoff run and you know the the, I was actually at the game, the final game of the season with the the wild pit, Brad, clowns, wild pitch. And you had to out later giving this amazing performance one game playoff against the ridge you had. Even you had even a guy like Orel Hershiser contributed some big ways and I loved Masada. Yoshi isn't they? They left them off the postseason roster and they asked him what he was going to do. He's got to sit in the stands with a beer and a hotdog yelling, put it Yoshi. But it may be this perverse about me and maybe it's just the nature of age is a baseball fan, but the this season that sticks with me the most more than anything else as agonizingly painful as it was was nineteen seven. And I really think looking back that was the best Mets team of all. I mean, you had seven ace starting pitchers really. And yet the Mets still had to give like Twenty-three starts to terrible guys, but you know, because you had, I mean, Gooden I could go through the whole litany of of what happened to all of them between, you know, base running injuries and bunting injuries and drug rehab and and all of this stuff. But that Mets team just had so much talent and and it was sort of a, it's such a poetic loss. You know, with the big Terry Pendleton home run and but but that team in. Look, I was fifteen years old. I was absolutely obsessed with the Mets beyond anything else in the world that the time you know, watch the the big game when Tim Raines came back after being away for a month. I watched the game that they lost because Dion James, that a fly ball that struck and killed a bird and what should have been an easy fly out dropped as a as a single. There were so many things that went wrong night year, but it was it was such an entertaining and such a such a wild ride. So my answer will always be nineteen seventy eight year. The Yankees were fourteen back and came all the way back. I was ten years old kind of prime phantom, eight, twelve, I think is really prime phantom time. I still remember my dad at some point when the keys were were way back in the summer. I said they're out of it and he's like, no, they're not. You know, I'm going to write down that you you say they're out of it and I say they're not. So it was a great great instance of paternal wisdom. And of course, that playoff single game playoff, because Red Sox was one of the. Best games ever played, and it wasn't just Bucky dent. Homerun was a number of other signature plays, including one of the smartest plays and Yankees. Postseason history when Lou Pinella lost a ball in the sun, but didn't let on that. He'd lost it in the sun and pretended he had it a beat on it all along stuck his hand out. Got it on one hap, but the the Red Sox runner from I, I believe only advanced one base which ended up making a big difference because he was deked out then just in terms of just sheer excess nineteen. Ninety eight. You know, historic Yankee season. It was sort of ruined because an a season like that and you guys, I guess you wouldn't notice as Mets fans, you get spoiled. And you know the blues, two hundred zero that year and I can't watch it and they're terrible. They're falling apart and they, they swept the World Series as well. I say about my favorite non Yankee. Postseason is nine hundred eighty six because I didn't live in New York. I didn't feel yet this. Anti Mets. Animus that I have now. So I was rooting for the Mets. But those both of the championship series that year in in both leagues may have been the best championship series ever played. I mean, the Houston, Mets, truly gripping the Red Sox. Angels was dramatic as well. I remember where I was when the the Mets clinched against the Astros and the game would go fifteen innings or something sixteen sixteen innings. And then when the when the World Series on the ball, go through Bucknor's legs also remember where I was, and that was an extraordinary moment. So that's it for us. You've been listening to a national review podcasting, rebroadcast re transmission or account of this game without the express written permission, national review magazine is strictly prohibited. This podcast has been produced by the incomparable Syra shitty who makes sound better than we deserve. This has been a special edition of the editor is you can find regularly scheduled addition and our feed this week. It's all about the Brett cavenaugh hearings. Thank you, Dan. Thank you, Michael. Thank you, stealth, Jason. Thanks to all of you. Editors. We'll see you. That's.

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