14 Episode results for "Katie Kingsbury"

Just Call Me "Mrs. Joffrey Baratheon" (feat. Lo French)

Straight Up with Stassi

1:03:00 hr | 1 year ago

Just Call Me "Mrs. Joffrey Baratheon" (feat. Lo French)

"Straight up with stuffy. Hi everyone. I'm Stacey Schroeder, jeez. This star Bravo's Vander pump rolls. I'm here to talk about pop culture, reality, TV's, celeb-, gossip relationship. Stathis new podcast is Larry is look at the world in everyone in it. I wanna give my opinion on everything, and she's never want to hold back on any topic. His that's what I do. Best judge. This is straight up with Stasi. Cars bitches, welcome to straight up with Stasi breaking tired who K. And I'm here with my fairy godmother low French. Listen times are tough if you know what I mean for real. I'm sick and tired for real sick. Like I can't hang the way that I used to hang like that's just not a thing that can happen anymore. I can't live the way that it used to live. There is no such thing is going to like on vacation, or going to bachelor party or like actually having a night out where like I drink, and I'm hung over the next day. I can't afford to be hung over the next day anymore. Do you know where that is how weird is it? No. It's really weird to be like, oh my God. There is no day that I'm allowed to just wake up and be hung over and like chill. This is your next level. This is the next level. This is thirty almost thirty one almost thirty one New York Times bestseller, New York Times, bestsellers enough time that changed the way going over. Did that change the game? The second that list came out the game changed it really feels like that was the moment that, like life shifted. But I feel like we've never gotten more done than what's happening now true, we're -ccomplish ING lot, and I hate to be like so broad and mysterious. You know what I mean? Like you sound like a douche. Have you seen Jackie Schimmel Instagram stories where she's like I hate the people that are like something coming soon. It's retuning RO a hate it annoy. It's now it's ridiculous kind of have to do that. But been Jackson LASSO has to do shit like that kind of shrew. So she's my girl, second Jackie she's my. She has to do that too, because lots of ships happening for her that she doesn't talk about her Instagram stories, my favorite aunt. She's just like one of the most talented people her and Taylor Strecker like to get them together are just like you. You can't you can't top that talent. No. They're the best. They're incredible. But yeah, y'all I'm having trouble trying to even figure in an hour to do my podcast, an hour a week, which is why I'm here again. You're welcome your love me. You're the best. You're like the three little fairies, Princess Aurora's, three little fairies. He'll love that just all in one. Yeah. So because I feel like I have not had time to do this. We've decided to do a podcast up sewed where well we, we answer. Kalisa question. Yes, we're throwing it way back to saucy jeopardy days. Yeah, we're excited because I am brain dead. I mean we can talk a little bit about, like Miami and all that. I mean, it was everyone knows was all like social media. Right. It's not like it secret that we were in Miami for Jackson Brittany's bachelor bachelorette party. But like, you know, when we do these things, it's not just like it's not a vacation, you know, it's also work. Let's take filming out of it. Let's take, let's take the fact that let's not even talk about the fact that it's technically a job because we are having to film, you know. So you can't be boring. You can't just sit there and like chill. You can't you have to be engaged. You have to be alert, you know, everything to do. Have to be involved. But, like let's say we weren't even filming weddings are a lot. They are, what is your lot? Bachelorette parties are a lot. And you have to back to back my sister's getting married the week before Brittany, not even week like six days, five days, or something before Britney gets married. So I have two weddings. There's wedding shit everywhere. It's like literally like the wedding ferry vomited. All over me. I am. I'm just wiping my mouth with wedding piss. It's just I don't even I I've never been more. I love weddings. I love going to wedding as a guest at, yes. And I'm a love being a bridesmaid like I'm honored. I love being a part of a wedding, but it is a lot in his lot. It's a lot. You don't. And I've this spin like a topic in a theme in on my podcast multiple times. His I've been a part of a lot of wedding. Well, I think a lot of people can relate to it. It's expensive. Expensive is. Sometimes you're with people. You don't know very well or don't necessarily get along with time. Yeah. This is the bride's biggest day of her entire life yet. Fuck it up. You have to be selfish. You can't fuck it up. You also have to do everything she says, even if it's crazy. Yeah. There's, there's a lot. There's a call into it. You have to take time off work. Yeah. Imagine money, people who have like hard core careers, where like their vacation time is few and far between. And every once a year, let's just say once a year their friends, get married will that one of their friends, get married, then that, that survey -cation time off Jose's, labral, get a real vacation and God. None of us have real jobs. You'd think that and then you're like, yes, media jobs where we have to be somewhere at eight AM. Stay until six PM and have yet AK time that is clocked, clocked, totally, but I could argue the other side too. I mean I'm still going to be working when we're in Kentucky. I mean so we're still like you're still technically. It's like things are still happening. Yeah, it's still going to be working there still shit like that. We're going to need to do just because we're not clocking in my brain's getting it always comes back to really does. But when I got back from the bachelorette bachelor party, I was like, I'm I feel myself getting sick. Like I was on the plane like I'm getting sick. I'm getting sick Oma God, I'm panicking now. I'm on top of getting sick. I'm making it worse by panicking which is going to get me sicker. I'm in a middle seat. No. I was in. I'm a nice girlfriend. Okay. I always feel bad for men being in the middle seat and production was puts us in right? Like, yeah. Economy was an extra stranger on the way back. It was a stranger Kristen on the way there switched to be next to me, which is basically the same. It's just annoying. What am I going to talk to you, because Chris doesn't stop talking? And I'm like, yeah. I just started down Tanabe. I just wanna watch downton abbey. You and can sit next to each other. If you guys wanna talk stop talking over me. Yeah, because you're in the way of my ipad, which I just have to say, I'm so happy, you're watching tonight. So it's magical. It's I can't believe it took me this long. I know it's anyone listening guy. She's like fully into. I am season for halfway through the season for that is a lot to starting to get scared because the end is coming. Yes. Like the fact that, like sitting there being like I don't have time to do a podcast. But I'm like I got through four seasons of downton abbey. Well, these were like on the pain, right? This is a new, but I'm like, staying up as late, as I can like my okay. I'm now at home. I can watch something on TV. I can like chill. I can have my, my moment of wrestling, and watch downton abbey, like this is now my respite. Yeah. That's what that is his job. You know. So that is how I've gotten so far with downton abbey. And I don't regret. I just wish it could be longer. I wish it had gone on for forty seasons. It's really, really sad. So proud of you. But sitting in middle seat in a tiny as like in a. It's Har at a feeling sick and I get I get off the plane life sucks. I get an IV. I get all of that stuff get everything I'm supposed to do. I drink green juices. No matter what. I'm like, I have a fever, I then pride happens. And we're out all day for pride. And I'm like, oh my God, I feel even sicker and the two days that I had off that I thought I had off. We're just shot to shit. So there's that I heard your Instagram story when you were showing your pride headbands and I pretty much knew we had to cancel the next two days, I didn't even think I was gonna cancel too. I didn't even. Voice. I, I just wanna let you know, I'm not cancelling anything today, but I really sick and you're gonna have to pick up the slack here sitting here crying when you're texting us. Yeah. And then I was like never mind. I am kids. Take take back everything. I just said, I am Gad's Alang. It's okay. Nobody died like it's fine. We can cancel anything you just have to be healthy. I feel like now my point of view, don't take the wrong way. Oh, god. No real don't. But did you see that episode of black mirror with Miley Cyrus? I keep Ashley. Oh, I feel actually. Oh, but with a good team around her. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. Where like she's kind of just being worked a rat, like she's just being thrown all over the place where it's like it, but I have a good team around me. So it's like there's no bad intentions. There's are there are a lot of us conspiring all the time. And I but having insulin who's worked for like multiple people. You're one of the easiest people to work for, because you just show up wherever we say to show up and you're prepared. And you like you know what? I mean you let everyone do their job like. Rationally. Why not? I see. I know actually. Oh, yeah. But like everyone does their job. They do it. Well, we all communicate and then yeah, you get where you need to go. Well, I'm telling you, I was like, I'm relating to this right now won't make virtual, like, huge version of you that's controlled by someone wearing VR mask backstage, I wouldn't be mad at it, if I'd, I'd, I would want my legs to continue, you know, find a way. I mean I'm working on virtual or augmented reality, but that's far out. I don't even know what that means. Yeah, you do. We'll talk about it later. Okay. Augmented reality swell, be bigger. Okay. But yeah, I really related. I just feel like. You know, I'm going on a podcast stored, and I've told everyone that we're extending this podcast stored so we're extending it. I'm pretty sure until March. So everyone who's written me being like, oh my God. You're not coming like I like Boston sold out or Philly sold out or whatever's what out. And I didn't get tickets to it. Okay. Well, don't worry don't worry, I have extended this until March. So, like that's going to happen. I think there's so much going on all the time that I'm like, I don't I really don't know anything. I don't know how to even have a conversation right now. I I'm this. I feel like a newborn baby. And who's just like or no not a new where maybe a baby who's just learning to walk. And I still need like some like the person to hold my hand Molin like walking, because I'm like, this is all this level of business is like, not what I'm used to that in a couple of weeks. You're going to be running all by yourself. We shall see and you might fall on your face a couple of times, but someone will pick you up. We shall see, I feel I even feel boring doing this podcast. I'm like people. Right. Know turn this off being like this fucking ho. No. Because she's he sent in really good question. Okay. So let's just get it away questions or handle I have a pop culture question for you. Are you feeling Giovanni? Oh my God. I saw this today and sent it immediately to bow. And I was like, no, no way. No, no. Meaning like no way as there's I thought it was a joke. At I know it's real. This is one thing that I thought the Countess was joking. I thought like. I mean, she has to be in on the joke or an Lisa arena, and any Cohen and who else was on it. Yeah. A person who was on it. Yeah. Andy did like the beginning of the music video, how did I miss that? Oh, missed that. I Mason it. Do you think he'd right? Like the forward to my next book, the book should ask him. Yeah. Andy Cohen is my book and back there on the watch happens live set petition to get that done wasn't it? I thought he put it there. Did he? I don't know. We have to check. No one told me that I feel like I would know that we'll check who do I need to text. Who do I need to show a boob to God knows? Yeah, you're my book. They're on the watch. What happens live set? Come on people. Work on it. But I don't think I saw that drop today. I want to know how to individuals about it. I wanna know giovani's getting any kind of like business like, are they sponsored job? Anyhow. Addresses. They have to sign off on because they really. I mean it's there it's certain eight. There are a lot of question. But you can technically use anyone's name in a song, I could sit there and healing low and not get your permission that would be rude, and I would be happy do it. I could do it. True. But it's there but it's a brand name, and they're actually talking about the dress kind of. Right. She's wearing all the dresses. We'll like how well is Giovanni doing in the fashion game right now? Exactly. They probably I'm sure they probably like this, and I thought it was gold. I'm going to have to rewatch because I didn't even notice any Cohen, I quickly saw, like feeling Giovanni and I'm like no way and just like send it to bone was like holy fuck. And that was it. So I need to take some proper time. Some proper downton abbey time. Okay. 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That's. B R. U M, A T, E dot com. Use my code stocks and you're gonna get fifteen percent off your first order. You are so welcome. This is going to change your life. I'm telling you, you're never going to have to drink warm alcohol ever, again side no oxygen. Back in the day in downton abbey times early nineteen. Hundreds, what did people do I literally wig when I watched onto Tanabe, I'm like so when you guys are like, I'm busy, busy doing what they're reading not busy, though a luxury. That's like, like no learning music because they didn't have music to play until the record players came around the piano, and saying, I didn't see any scenes of them learning play music, saying, there's one where where lady Mary and lady Edith sing together. I saw one when Matt comes home from the army. Yes. Remember that, that's one seen yet in four and a half seasons that I've seen there's a lot that has to go on, they're just downstairs. They're not representing many night, but there's nothing to do like literally just getting changed and getting their hair done. Putting on some lotion. Having breakfast in bed, only if you're married. Oh, do you notice that yet because Edith was going down? And she's like why because only? If you're married, you get breakfast in bed, you Broda. Honestly, I don't like the scenes where they have breakfast in bed, because it looks like really claustrophobic. I've every time I see those trays and their legs are just caught between those trays. It reminds me of when I go to sleep, and I have like Luda on one side refund on the other, and I can't move my legs. I'm like this sucks. I like freaking out like who wants to have breakfast like that. I wouldn't be up and about and be able to be comfortable, and I move about move around when you have the whole day to be lazy, you just start from the beginning Donana bed yet. That's how does your food digest also because I've watched your dogs before they totally do that. Somehow, they all of a sudden they wake up. I'm on the edge of my bed, and they're just sprawl us everywhere. They lock you in. It's hysterical. But they're so cute. You don't want to move them. No, I want to kick them out the window literally know I would kick lewd out the window. He can come to my house, I threaten her all the time. Knew would never do anything. No. I would like. Threaten her. She really threatens you back. You just can't hear. Yes. She's a little be. I don't see her. She's a rare somewhere. All right. So listener questions. So this is finally see questions we used to play this game where I would like categorize all of the incoming questions. And I kind of did that again. But also there are some really random ones that I'm gonna just kind of like interweaving between. Okay. We're going to start with one of those Mary fuck kill like it ready. Yeah. Ramsay Bolton king Joffrey Lord. Bailiffs. Oh, fuck me this comes from a less. Delays only. I'd so good. Oh my God. Okay. Let's, let's okay. Joffrey and Ramseyer the worst. So let's go. Let's start with that. Lord. Baylor's sucks. But like he's not as violent as Ramsey and not directly Joffrey, what I mean I could fend for myself, I think I could beat. I just I don't know. I feel like oh my God. I know you're making me think differently about my, like how I know this down. Let's go with kill Ramsey. Obviously kill Ramsey's. Okay. He's out of there. You add rather rather fuck Ramsey, if I had to fuck any let's be on us if you could just fuck him and you can be gone for like. It's not bad sound about this is the hardest one I've ever been asked, because I'm like, okay, so what happens? I'm like, okay, Lord Bela. He would be too hard to deal with, like, constantly be like wondering about shit if I was married to him, I'd have to be like, constantly me. Like what is your tuna conspiring against me, help to die? Whereas, I'd rather be married to Joffrey. So at least I could just like physically like go at him. I feel like you get out manipulate him out. Yeah. So I feel like but I really don't want to have sex with or JR. Bailiffs right twice as name. Yeah. So I might kill. Lord. Bailiffs twist twist. Have sex with Ramsey and then he'd be done. And then Mary Joffrey and. Spat or now running in circles, I have no idea. But that's I'm choosing that using that that was a good one. That's that was that was well thought out. I knew that I wanted to start with that. Do you want to pick a category? Or do you want to go with another fund one another fund one? Okay. If you could be any musical as any character, who would it be and why. Heart to, to this choose I why that is so hard. I love it when people make you pick. One thing you're so bad at it. Oh my gosh. I have so many because I'm thinking of all my favorite musical is from Bree. Okay. Bree. All my favorite musicals, but I'm thinking of so I'm narrowing down my favorite musicals. But then I'm like, wait. But there are other characters and other musicals that I like or thinking my favorite musicals, and I'm like, put the characters so if I had to quickly for the sake of time. Yep. I'm narrowing it down to two. It would be. The musical Aida, but not I eat what's her name, the Princess, the one whose strings my strongest suit. Can I forget, her name a weird name, it would be her. I've always been obsessed with her character, or this is very basic basic basic basic, who any character in Chicago. That'd be. So I mean all the characters of so fun. Yeah. Velma 's fine. Rockies fun like I mean, think about it like it's just an honestly, reality stars play them all the time on Broadway off Broadway. Like, really? Yeah. I feel like I've heard that. Or like dancing with the stars alum, I would. Yeah. Yeah. It's doable. Something that, like I could I could see happening. Okay. So part two is what's your favorite Broadway song to sing? And police say have are no. Yes. No, I'm definitely not doing that. I'm not good at it. I don't do it. No, I don't am sick. I'm like, I'm like welfare, all in stepbrothers. I'm so not singing right now. And this is too much pressure. I can't and no. I'm not singing cable. I added that. So don't blame. Bree. But what is your favorite Broadway song to sing? Oh my God. Honestly, just like depends on the time of day, depends on what's going on your so you can't narrow shit down. Just just throw out to know because right now what's last Broadway song. Now, this is a no because right now, it's not Broadway. But right now, I'm just like on, like a greatest showman kick. And that's all I listen to. So like, for about three months, that's going to be the only thing I listened to that can count. What's your favorite greatest showman song? Okay. Let's go from there. The one I think them all that, like. The what the never enough. I'm like never enough. Is my favorite one, but like not when I wanna be like pumped up to the greatest show that one is like the first one. The main title one is just like every time, I'm just like watch Alexa, play the greatest, showman soundtrack. Greatest show original motion, picture soundtrack. But his wait for it's just wait for it using this will get you going. Alexa, volume ten. Yeah. This gets you going. Right. Totally. I mean it does. Yes. You feet. Oh I didn't around my whole apartment. Alexa. She went rogue. Just turn that shit all the way down the bitch will listen see look like that's empowering. She won't listen because you called her Alexis yesterday. I know she's, she's better about that. Okay. Pick a category. We have number one relationships slash advice. Number two, babies house number three self care number four next level, basic slash business, five style and make up six TV slush Vander pump roles. Oh my God. And it'll be business one from there. I'm trying to see which one is going to be the best one you already said you were doing live podcasts. So Sydney Payton. There you go. There's your answer Samantha wants to know. What are you looking forward to most on your podcast tour? Honestly, I'm so I can just say that. I'm really nervous about my podcast store. Like I don't even know what to be excited about because I've never done a podcast tour before. So, like, I feel like it's like going back to the days of like when I used to do like musical theater in high school. And when bone. I like talk about, like, okay let's plan a tour. Like, what are you gonna do? What are we going to do what's going to happen? I'm like, I want to put on a show. I wanted to do a show jazz hands. Now, you're singing you don't have. You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm like most excited about like. Like putting together a show. You know what I mean? I don't just want to sit there with, like my headphones on and just have a conversation. I really want to try and make it like something that people are like, oh, I just saw show. And I think that like that is like something creative that I haven't done that, that a creative muscle that I haven't exercised that I feel like. Is is exciting. I mean that's what makes me most excited about doing a tour. I'm having deja vu, because we had the literal same conversation before your book tour. You were like I'm just nervous. I don't know what's going to happen. You have I handled it. Yeah. You did. So we can handle this. Yeah. We can okay, one more basic. They question this might be a challenge for you. Madison, new banks wants to know a basic big bitch guide to visiting LA. But here I have categories for you. Okay. Eat give her basic bitch place. Eat eat listen, I would just say go to Belmont, because I feel like so many people go in and out of Belmont that you're like it's all West Hollywood natives. And then, like you see bachelor people there. Van and pump roles people. There can't get any more basic than that. It's right down the street from where all of us live, you know, it's just like it's not gourmet food it's a bar. It's but it's like the local hunt and karaoke at ten Sundays. There you go to, and I just love their ranch dressing. So there's added they do have good really good ranch shop shop. I'm an online shopper. But if I have to get something like right away, I mean, I always go to the grove. Grove is like my Disneyland and this is basic bitch thing. I mean it's fun. There's a fountain. There's a trolley there's Zara, there's Nordstrom. And there's a really cute Italian restaurant, by the fountains, you can sit and drink, delicious fucking cocktails, and eat food while you're overlooking the fountain by the movie theaters. So if you're like, oh, I spend to hold a shopping drinking and eating and now I don't wanna leave so I'm just going to stay. I think I'll go see a movie. Oh, I can it's right there. So it's like, and it's outside. So it's like everything that you want and Christmas time it fake snow Christmas Christmas. Some of the grove is the best. I wake up every morning and I look at Bo and I'm like I wish it was Christmas. I believe that, like I just wish it was Christmas all the time. I do Christmas in July. People do that if we had time. Okay. I'm having a birthday this year. Okay. I really thought that people were gonna force you into that. I feel like people might be I think, so, too, like you might get surprised and you I'm not gonna. But I don't want I don't need surprise, surprise. I don't I haven't heard of anything, but I'm just saying, but a lot of people are asking me, what's going on? I don't care. I don't want it. I don't need. I would love nothing more than a be here and watch downton abbey and have no one bother me. You better like your door. That's all I know. Well, if there's like a job breaker situation. Listen, I don't wanna die yet that was reference. I thought that was a good movie. It's a great move. I remember that. Yeah. She'll low she died. Yeah. That was a prank went wrong. I'm not like that. Big on surprises, I know 'cause I like to be prepared like if I'm going to do something like I like to play in my outfit. You know, like it's something to look forward to so I like looking forward to things so surprises. You hear it here. Now, I don't need to be surprised. Okay. Like it's fine. This isn't some giant trick to be like, I don't want to have a birthday, surprise me. No, I really don't need a birthday this year. It's thirty one. It's in between weddings who gives a shit. You know what I mean? It really doesn't matter. This is my will and testimony. Okay. Okay. Testament, or testimony testament will and testament. Okay, we're all about trying to be healthier. I mean if you're living in two thousand nineteen and you're like fuck health. I don't care. You're an idiot, so we're trying to make that easier on everyone and thrive market is an online marketplace with a mission to make healthy living, easy and affordable for everyone because think about it. We're all trying to be healthy. We're all trying to have like non GMO food snacks, vitamin supplements, all those. Type of things, but we're kind of like overwhelmed with all of the options out there when you go to thrive market. They have a basically a condensed amount of products that they have all reviewed, so that you're getting the best the most high quality products that there is out there, and they have everything like I said, besides all the non GMO food snacks, vitamins, all that they have personal care products, eco friendly, cleaning supplies, safe and nontoxic, beauty products. Kitchen. Staples, homegoods, baby. Food kids products. You name it, and it's all shipped. Exactly. Right to your door, so you can just go online. 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See, when you're in LA, I know really good one the Hollywood sign. No, the lanterns at Lacrima. Oh, yeah. Most basic pitch. You have to get that photo. Totally got it so weird. Because like because I live in LA, I don't even think about that stuff. And I haven't been there in decades. I walked there like after I date once like three four years ago. Well, that's romantic. Mr. Oh, Mr. I think that could be nice. No, yes, we walked there after I ate. Yeah, that's so cheesy. I always think of a different nickname for him. This don't right now. I don't even know what you're he was. He was interesting, you. Well, cool, so weird like the things that I used to be like concerned about, isn't that crazy like when you think on the past? I remember when you first met him you were so into him. I was like it was like real quick. Yeah. I was like one day, and I was like, oh my God. I can't believe all this time. I'm patrick. I know one day like went on a date. And like met someone new. Yeah. Yeah. It was great. Okay. He had lived laugh love quotes in his bathroom shut up. So there's that I over, I overlooked a lot, I overlooked a lot, but wasn't he wasn't either one, the really good first date with. Yeah, it was a great first date. Okay. I a lot, okay? Yes. Yep. One hundred percent. There was also a murderer one. Relate to that. I was like, oh my God. In venice. I'm obsessed with two. Guys, the same time life is great. But he railed him. Bailed. Yeah, it was like, yeah. It was like you waited too. You waited a really long time. And then by the that is exactly what happened now that I remember. Yeah. In fact, I talked about it on this very podcast. So if you go back three years ago really. Yeah. I talked about these things on my podcast. Consi- keough. Yeah. You called him American psycho. Yeah, I liked the other one better anyway, but yeah, well, whatever a lot of issues that like a lot of stuff came up. I mean, a lot of stuff came up whatever God that was a while ago. It's like I looking back weird. It's so weird to be like, oh, my like what's that, like to swipe? Right. You don't mean you don't wanna know like it's the worst. Yeah. I think hitting ups if Bo died, I think it would just be single for, like, there's to look, I'm looking at my schedule, right? This is not going to happen. If Bo died than like, I'm just done. I'm not I'm not dating again. I'm like, over it like, okay. Well, that's not going to happen. So I know just saying what's that, like to have someone love you? Used to be my favorite question to ask. I know next question. Okay. Well, I was gonna ask where she should stay in LA. That's the end up with this together. Depends only like totally. I mean, I always say West Hollywood West Hollywood. It's very central. Yeah. I always say, what staying wants to Hollywood? And but the thing is I don't stay in any of the, you know what I would just go old school and be like Chateau marmot or the Roosevelt because they're haunted. That would be very cool. You know, they say you show sustained Haitian at one of those thought about that. But it's like every time I'm might oh, that sounds like fun. I'm like, well that's a lot of effort. I live a block away. But it would be my bags just go in, in a Mike. It's like trooper les drills walk there. It's like troop Beverly Hills. Yeah. Even the Beverly Hills hotel, I would like to stay there. That was fun meeting. Kristen stayed there for our photo shoot for the wine, which is line photo shoot. And I wouldn't Kristen God sung by beat though. Yep. She had to sleep on the cot. Oh, isn't she was the one who is the biggest pain in the ass and the group? So she was voted someone was going to have to sleep on the cot. We voted a new lust. That's how it was how it works against one. Oh my God. At least you freely admit it, it in a group of three when there are three people. Sometimes I'm the one that's voted against generally rotates. That's true. Someone's always the odd man out in every situation. That's just life. True. All right. Okay. We'll do a fun random question Kemp. You're stuck on an island for one year with one, other vanden, pump rules, cast mate, and it can't be bow. Okay. Who do you want to be stuck with? And what five items do you wanna bring with you? This is coming from marquee, sorry. I don't notice your last name Z. Okay. All right. I stink go to Katie, but she's a girl and a whole year. I'm just I'm just clarifying the timing. Well, let's go over the dude, I Thompson of all. No jacks, no Schwartz possibly. He's a he's a he's a contender in K, Katie and Schwartz contenders. Kristen. Contender sheena? No. She couldn't do anything LA LA, you would think should be a bad bitch and could handle stuff. No, she is. No. She couldn't she'd be the like least annoying. But I would have to do all the work. So, like, yeah. Okay. Lalla talks a big game. I just feel like she's so capable. I don't know. She talks like that. And then once it comes down to it. She's like, I don't feel like I don't want to know I don't know. And I'm like, gosh, I'm telling you when I was in Paris, I was like you are all talk, which makes me love you even more like who are just a softy. Lalas out. On his out. So what do we have left we have, Katie, Katie or Schwartz, Kristin, Kristin would stress me out? I think I think Chris would handle my so Reese, which, but, but. She would stress me out. Okay. So, like, right there, I'm like listen. I need to be calm because I'm gonna panic and freak the fuck out, so I can't handle the like, and if I'm not pulling my weight she would one hundred percent like let me know until, like I need to be able, I, honestly feel like I'm gonna go Schwartz. Okay. And what five things would you bring with you? Oh my gosh. He's only what ends are loaded. I know I love them. Well, I just don't. Think of sickly that you can't you can't bring a phone because there's nowhere to charge it. So. You can't do that. Honestly, if you're stranded on an island, why even bother bringing anything, why bother there's nothing. There's nothing you actually need. I know something you need a knife and. It's not in your fridge water hot sauce fuck that. I'm trying to eat hots. If you're fishing, the ocean, or like cracking open, a coconut at point zero FOX really, I think eight needed knife. I'm trying to be practical here. I needed nice. I need one of the long lighters because that'll last well, last some good time K not a small lighter. Yep. Along one so get to right there. Tampons. Yes, that would be annoying. Especially as far as Katie. Katie actually just Katie Kingsbury capable. I agree. I think it's us Katie over shorts. Okay. Yeah. Lighter knife temps. I've two left. I think that's all. Oh, do you. Oh my glasses. So I can see. And a rain coat. Okay. And a raincoat shelter. That's fair shelter. So I think that's great list now. It's actually an excellent list. Okay. I dare anyone to try and rival that list. Okay. Ms confident. That was good. That was I I'm, like, really impressed. But myself could job. Thank you. 'cause he'd be like, look boom, look phone, duh wasn't thinking for a second. No doubt navy for a year. That's what that meant. Yeah. What's okay. New category. New categories. Self-care lacy wants to know just how the hell are you doing with everything, you know, life and shit not well bitch. Not well totally not. Well, she's exaggerating killing it. No. Well, I mean, not that well, but lo and I literally would joking about this yesterday talking about book, number two being like, oh, okay. So, like a chaplain, would if we did it a chapter on self care. Leave it blank. You vote. Yes or. No. I think it's a. Because I have no idea. And because she blacks out, and she self cares. What do you mean? You black out. You don't answer the phone. You sit here and you are just like your brain is off. Yeah. Lack out. Yeah. I thought you meant like wasted blackout. No. That's not solve. No mentally. Yeah. Myself care routine is in there and I've tried I I've asked my team. I've said who is Ryan Seacrest. Doctor, what does he take? What is this routine? I think he's cloned. What does he do because I need to figure this out now? Because my self care chapter in book, number two, is going to be three blink pages. I still think it's really funny. I think it's funny too. I just don't know if people would get it like Coly's would get it, right? But people who don't listen to my podcast or like no me and just like read my book. It'd be like, I don't, I think is just misprint. I think you should do one blank page like the first chapter page blink where it's a self care, the nothing. And then on the next page, you should actually start writing. That's funny. I like that. Because then it's like who fluke? Yeah. Dino who did that William Faulkner? We'll don't tell me that somebody already did it. But he what I'm saying is he's like a frigging prolific writer, so it's little relating. No, he didn't have with this at the same time any lately to blink. He did you ever read as dying noting really nerdy? You know, it's about a family in the mom passes away and each chapter is from the point of view of a different person. And there's one chapter from the point of view of the four year old and his only words are my mother is a fish because that's how he makes sense of, like I was an English major, how do I know that? I don't know. But it's like it's one of my favorite things. Okay. So it's not completely blank, but that's what it makes me think about all right? Well, I think I'm going to do a blank page, and then we'll start writing. It'd be like I literally have nothing. No idea what I'm talking about. Don't take any of my self care advice. But this is what I'm trying to do to stay sane word word. Okay. Kendra wants to know. It was recently, my birthday June second. Happy birthday. She's trying to figure out what she should by herself as a birthday gift and new timeless purse jewelry. What would you recommend Joel's what kind of Jules, I just think something that you can wear all the time, whether it's like a ring, that's like a band, like it doesn't have to be that expensive, but something like your splurging a little bit. But you can wear all the time. Like, that's my favorite thing to like buy like when I found out, like I had, like a another job, I was like I'm buying myself like little diamond earrings. You know what I mean? Like or like a diamond ring that, like it's like a band that I can wear like that never goes out of style. A handbag does technically sometimes God of styles that, you know, I would always rather have a nice piece of jewelry, and like you can always just look down or just know that like that's I think that's the most special love it. So there's a couple people Kayla, and Stacey and others who are asking about your dark passenger moments word. Stacey says I've had a lot of dark pass. Singer moments for the same reasons of past issues or unresolved. Bullshit insecurities. Are you fully able to keep it at bay now or does it rear its ugly head still recommendation for self thoughts or self-help? When you're dealing with that, okay. I'm I'm going to be honest, Admiral stopping at are really shifted a lot like a, so I quit taking out her all in October. So that's been a really long time. And I've had no like major freak out. There are some people to wondering like about that. How hard it was. Did you quit cold Turkey Turkey? It was like a moment that I realized, like, okay I'm this. I have I really have no choice. And Bo was like you kind of have no choice. Like it's you have this is what needs to be done. Right. And it wasn't as hard as I thought I've realized that I'm not somebody that like, has, like, I always assume like, I have an addictive personality. I'm like, yeah, I loved out role and I love Xanax. I loved drinking, but I've, I've been able to quit things just by making that decision. And it wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be it was annoying because I'm like, I'm scattered Br I fell scatter brain. I'm not as focus. Or you know, like that happened. But it was it was easy for me to, to quit. I mean there are moments where I'm like, oh my God. It would be so much fun to just like taking Adderall. And right. It just makes you want to just like be so laser focused and like get shit done. Like I missed that, like, but I know that it also brings this like anxiety up in me where like it's like it can so easily be lit this fire can just so easily. Be lit that it's not worth it. So I could be in the best mood ever on Adderall and just something can just switch me and it's like it's, it's just insane. Just it's, it's very weird. And I feel like ever since I like I said ever since I stopped taking out her all I haven't had dark passenger moments but have I felt those feelings? Yes. Right. Those don't just go away for the people who, like have those feelings, and maybe don't take out her all. Yeah. Any I still have like those like moments where I have like I wanna have a freak out, but I know how to deal with it. Now, I know how to like, talk myself out of it, because I'm in my right frame of mind, like all those feelings and emotions that I had, like during the dark passenger, they don't just magically go away. You still have passed issues you still have those insecurities those never, like really truly go way. I just Mabel to reason with myself and be like you're being ridiculous. Is that what you do? No, I one hundred percent do. Yeah. Like I you just recognize that like you're being ridiculous. And that's it's way easier for me to do 'cause I don't I don't feel as anxious or like I've just like have like this split personality or something. Right. I don't know. It's not good. It is. No, no. I don't like the way it makes me feel it really it, it's not the best. Yeah. I mean, listen, you can get like a eighteen page paper done in like three hours, but it's not worth it. Kkob is on a mission to make migraines less of a headache. Okay. If you're somebody who has suffered from migraines, or you are a family member or friend of somebody who suffers from migraines. You know that they're absolutely the frigging worst Nikolai. My little brother is somebody who's always suffered from migraines to the point where he throws up. Nonstop has to go to bed has to drink water twenty four seven always has to have like a bottle of water by him. It's debilitating. And it's, it's really sad to see. And a lot of the times, it's really hard to make the time to go to a doctor. It's also expensive and having to drive somewhere and do all of that. It's just a lot. If you have parents that can't get off work, it's just it's a lot, so with cove, you can have your treatment from home. So basically the path to treating your migraine headaches begins with a simple consultation. You go online from the convenience of your own home you right in all of your symptoms. And then you have a doctor that reviews them and determines the best course of treatment for you. So then you have a personalized supply of medication that is delivered directly to your door. So basically, you never have to leave your house. So if you suffer from migraines or know someone that does there's an easy way to figure it out and have medication come right to your door without ever having to go to a doctor and have those copayments, or leave the house, or have to carve out a chunk of time. It's super easy, and the doctor will check in on you through their secure patient portal to see how you're feeling. So basically you are covered. So if you suffer from migraines or headaches or know, anyone that does for limited time, you'll get your doctor consultation and your first month of treatment for just thirty dollars. Okay, thirty dollars and no medical insurance is required. When you go to with cove dot com slash Stasi. That's w I t. H C, O V, E dot com slash stocky, and you're gonna get a whole month of treatment for just thirty dollars. I mean that's insane Kaelin wants to know how you learn to love yourself, but not be egotistical about it. Also the best face to stay confident and secure when you get nervous about finally finding the one. I don't I don't. I don't necessarily know like how confident I am. Like I still have so many insecurities I just feel like I've, I've recognized that, like I am who I am. And that's I'm thirty. That's not going to change. I'm not going to, like magically turn into the smartest prettiest wittiest person ever. I'm not going to magically turn into an eighteen year old Instagram model. Like that's not my life. Like, once you like, I think with age, you realize like this is who you are. And that is just something to be proud of, you know, you just like after you like, I don't know. Like you just after my twenty s I just realized like, okay wasted a lot of time. Trying to be something I wasn't that sucks like, no I'm never going to have like a big ass and in twenty four inch waist. It's never going to happen, like no, I'm never going to be the smartest person in the room or I'm never going to be this, or I'm never going to be that, like nuts. Fine. Like I am who I am. Mm. And there's like a power in owning like what you actually are because that's the only one in this world. Oh shoot, boom. Boom. Do you think that Bo helped you with that I think he gave me like the safe space to be like that? You know, like when you're not what like when you have somebody who loves you and his around you who's just like encouraging you to be you. It's like, oh, okay because I just felt like I was constantly trying to like be different or better in different ways before. Right. And so now I'm just like I am who I am. And I have somebody who just appreciates that. So that, that helps. But I I'm not going to credit it all to him. Right. Because I did a lot of the work myself. Yeah, you did. And I was I mean I was alone for a long time like a good half a year. I feel like and that alone time, also the helped like and just being around my friends, traveling, and just like. Just having different experiences just makes you realize, like just kind of who you are. And it's just a lot of growing up. I think. I agree. You know, I feel like I'm going through that. Sarah wants to know what is your advice for the people pleasers of the world? How d- strong ladies get out from under expectations of others to really thrive. And how can you be unapologetically yourself? I mean teams fry just said, I feel bad for the people pleasers like they're the martyrs of the world. The saints of the world. I feel like that is a cross to carry like to constantly like have to, like, I like, sympathize and empathize with that. I'm very fortunate to have never been a people pleaser when I was a kid to totally. But that must suck. That's like way more pressure than you put on yourself. It's yeah. Like you put a ton of pressure on yours. I just, it's you gotta just like let I don't even know how to give advice on how to like deal with being a people pleaser because I've never really been one. I'll say and I am not an expert, but I feel like I'm a learning really well to say now you can say no to people and they're still going to like you, like you just have to start. But that's the biggest thing is like you have this fear of. Oh, no. If I say, no, then they're going to go to someone else and then they're never going to reverse. Here's well for a lot of people you do care, like you want to be the person. In that people come to. I love being the person that my friends call and the thought of like saying, no and not being the first person it, it's like, well then maybe you should just embrace being and people pleaser because that's who you are. And then there's nothing wrong with that is that's what makes you happy because it doesn't make me happy to be the first person. Somebody comes to I found a really good balance in it because there's only a handful of people that I truly want to be the first person that they call, not everyone in my entire phone. Okay. So that sense, but it piggybacks on what you just said. It's like I had to be more confident in myself, and what I was doing, and that I'm okay by myself to just operate and be happy and not have people calling me all the time. Yeah. Before I can start saying. No. Yeah. But now saying no is like a powerful tool like I'm really excited about it. It's awesome. It's, it's magical. I'm learning I told you the other day that got all mad at me and called me starchy. Because I was like, no, I don't need to go out tonight. I'm just saying front of my TV you just like when you tell me the story, I'm imagining that it's like a real, I wouldn't imagine is like a real fight ANZAC. I mean, rowing. Doc-. The last weekend was pride. And he called market, Alex, and he was like, let's go out. Let's do whatever. And Alex told me in the next day, and I was like he didn't call me and from millisecond. I was so sad. And then elevated Alex and I was like, I wouldn't go on anyway. Yeah. It's totally see there you go. I wish I had more advice for people pleasers. But I think it's hard. Yeah. I don't know that life. So you're lucky, there's that okay. Last self-care question Mary wants to know this is so good. During dark passenger moment, what is the lowest, your phone battery got to oh my God. That's a great question. I never in my right frame of mind to check my battery Neal's. I'm euros alone. So there's that I couldn't even use it. So I wouldn't even know how to answer that. So zero yeah. Let's go zero. Let's I was one of those people you should have been weeded out. Yeah. All right. We have time for one last question. One last question. I feel like I need to blow my nose. Do you want to do a? Would you rather? Sure this is so weird. No way. Can we do to questions? They'll be fast. Okay. Would you rather? So your boyfriend and your dad have to switch bodies. Do you have to have sex with one of them to bring them back to their original date? God who do sex. Oh, this is like I ask people would you rather? Go down on your mom or your dad, right? I can't believe I've never asked this question before I've never heard of this question before a freaking the fuck out saying this Megan, Megan holy shits. I do. I'm going to go with have. I'm going to. Oh my God. I'm Barbara of I I'm going to do it. You have to say, that's Burt my father's body. And my boyfriend's. Bring also whatever the fuck because I can close my eyes. So there's that and I, I don't want to speak about this again. Okay. Okay. I don't want to speak of this again, as a good one, though. I'm it's, it's fantastic. And I can't wait. To ask later, it is. So gross, I cannot wait to ask him this later. I can't believe I've never heard this either. I don't even want to know he would say, honestly, I wouldn't make this a staple of my podcast store and asked like a listener every night. God-like hoses once as you've got to answer this question, but everyone would he answered the same? So there's I had a lot of good which would you rather quest? Okay. We'll go through those later. Okay. Last one is a hot dog considered a sandwich. Coming from Becca. I don't really think so. No. No why. Well, it's not two pieces of bread. It's just one but, but the protein is in between two pieces of bread, even though they're connected. It's wedged in a valley. It's, it's not the same is not the same, but he's not a sandwich. It's its own entity. Is it a taco? It's not a taco. It's just you can't call a hotdog sandwich. If somebody said, do you wanna sandwich and handed me a hot dog? I would that person's like well now person I, I don't know. I could you imagine my reaction if somebody said, I think you'd be happy because it's a hot dog. I'd be happy, but you're always staying really like side item. I really hard, you're interesting. Yeah. And you should be you are shape Shifter when we can't even get into that. Yeah. No speaking of hot dogs, though, you got you have plenty in your fridge. I do. Yeah, I just have to give a shoutout to will Taylor not Stricker sorry. No. But and a lot of Michalis because after my grandmother died. This glorious girl Taylor got a group of people together and sent me like a hotdog kit, which was so nice. It's so cool. So sweet and got over like a thousand dollars sent. Yeah. I think it was over to someone else it. And then the last three numbers were six six way. I don't know that, well, so they got that much money donated to my grandmother's charity sans. And that is a beyond beyond. And I got you guys is flowers yesterday. The roses that last year, I, I can't even honestly like the whole charity thing is that is because my grandmother, used to take me there like all the time. It's in Los Angeles. Oh, it's for it's for unwed mothers. So they would always that, yes, they would always do like bazaars, and my grandmother, always used to ask me, even while Vader pump rules was airing she'd be like, could you do the fashion show for Saint John's bazaar and Mike Grimm I. I'll come with you to the bizarre. But, like I can't just go up there and like in the psych auditorium of like it, just really it's, it's like it's if you saw what it was, like it's like I can't just get up there, and it's, it's, I mean, it sounds horrible. But it makes me laugh now because it's like closed from secondhand stores like from goodwill. Right. And they would have like some girls come up and model them. I'm like, we're like, like a part of the charity, grandma. I know him on television show, but like this isn't like the right. And she would always just like laugh, and we both like laugh about it, but she would always ask me every year. That's okay. So I would go I still have a bunch of stuff because I would still buy things from the bizarre because people would bring in their old, vintage shit just sell it not even realizing what it was, and it could be like worthless or meaningless, or whatever. But like you could find a good sequin jacket there for three dollars. No way. Yeah. And so go, I really appreciate Rosemary and honor of grim Rosemary. Thank you so much for everyone who did that. That's really, really fucking cool. You guys were up is really cool. Thank you, guys, so much. So I will see you guys next week. Bye. Bye. Z's.

Bo downton abbey Kristen God migraines Katie Kingsbury Instagram LA Tanabe Ramsey Stacey Schroeder Matt New York Times Andy Cohen Alexa Mary Joffrey Chris Jackie Schimmel Miami
Introducing 'The Choice' from NYT Opinion

The Argument

05:43 min | 7 months ago

Introducing 'The Choice' from NYT Opinion

"Hello argument listener. I'm Katie Kingsbury and I'm breaking into your cue to tell you about a new podcast from the New York. Times opinion section called the choice. We'll take you inside inside the editorial boards interviews with the twenty twenty presidential candidates while we choose whom to endorse in the Democratic primary. If you like the argument we have a feeling. You're gonNA love the choice. Here's our first episode explaining a little bit more about the show. Thanks for giving the choice to try. I'm Andrew Young and I'm running for President United I'm going to run through a lot. He was a wonderful by sort of without the baggage so to speak world smart absolutely charity. I'm Katie Kingsbury. I I oversee the editorial board of the New York Times for more than a century. One of the highest privileges of the board has been endorsing a presidential candidate. Historically the board has is published their decision after intense off the record interviews with candidates behind closed doors but this year for the first time in our history where breaking our own rules. I'm bringing you with us. The New York Times opinion section. Welcome to the choiced Unlike a board of Directors or trustees the Times editorial board made up of Fourteen Opinion Journal where experts in their respective subject matters. I'm Brent staples can I write about politics. Culture Race Education economics a a whole range of health science research. Maimon and I write about foreign affairs. Alex Kingsbury I cover issues about technology politics foreign policy in the military. The Shelf Katelyn. I covered national politics. Appelbaum and I write about economics and business for the editorial board. I'm Jesse Wegmann right about the Supreme Court and legal issues. My name is Mara Gaye and I cover your box and I write in a variety of editorial. I'm Lauren Kelly I cover women and reproductive rates Joan Broder and I edit just about everything Harris. Chris and I'm an editor and writer covering culture and society. Jim Del.. I'm the deputy editorial page editor and I run. The op-ed section. I'm Charlie were L. and I write about the way. Technology is changing the world. We're in the opinion section at the Times which means completely separate from its newsgathering operation. The newsroom's mission is to present the world as it is an hours to present the world as it should be well. Our missions are separate. We operate within the same standards needed for accuracy. Clarity and fairness we've been publishing our choice. The highest office since eighteen eighteen sixty in those divided times. We urged voters to embrace a tall Republican named Abraham Lincoln. The board comes to decisions by doing doing something very few in America. Get a chance to we sit down with each candidate by themselves for over an hour and ask them any question. We want it safe to say that before for these interviews started. We as a board had no clue whom we did endorse no clear. Choice had emerged primary debates. And we're eager to figure out the best candidate for the Democrats we wanted to. I know who would be the most effective president with the temperament and character best duty for the job but we also know the biggest question on the minds of many Democratic voters is who can beat Donald Trump. They have a lot to think about. The twenty twenty election is beginning in the shadow of voter suppression election hacking presidential impeachment not to mention frightening in climate change in escalating foreign conflicts. So if voters deserve total transparency as. They make their decision as to who should run against Donald Trump. So Oh every day for the next. Two weeks will release an intimate interview with a different Democratic candidate. Away from the project Veritas. And she says staff. You are not allowed no sorry. Ah You'll hear US ask the critical questions about their pitch. To the American people. Helping Women Democratic nomination let alone the presidency without the support of black voters and their strength as a candidate. And I'm the only one that has support across the spectrum of every single element of Democratic Party and get the answers. They never have time to give on the debate stage and nobody. Nobody does well at this question. Nobody ever wants to answer. This problem will also be releasing a supplementary episode every day the takes you inside the board celebration. Gratien and reactions after the candidates visits. I don't want to go as far as today. But he just evaded your question. He might have lied When he said there was an after. Every when it comes to see us. We'll sit down as board for final debate discuss whom the time should give. Endorsement values are in the right place. Just don't see how he makes the case for being a national league at the end of our series so here our final decision. Listen to our arguments for and against but ultimately make the choice for yourself torness on Monday. The first endorsement interview Senator Bernie Sanders do like it may not change. When I got to the white I see that as an advantage people know why what voice stand for. And if you WANNA watch how we did all this check out the January nineteenth episode of the weekly on Fx or Hulu after that and this is the choice. Subscribe now on Apple podcasts. spotify or wherever you listen the choices produced by at will media. Mitch Blue Steam Molly Socia- Ashley Ashley Taylor and Rachel Lightner with help from Michel Mason mixing by Lauren Gardner and original music by Allison Leyton Brown special. Thanks to Tyson Evans from the New York. Times are executive producers are Willnot from will media and Phoebe Latte from the New York Times. Finally we want to hear from you. Please rate and review us on the apple podcast APP. It'll help more voters in the show.

editorial board New York Times Katie Kingsbury New York Donald Trump president Andrew Young Apple Senator Bernie Sanders editor Alex Kingsbury Mara Gaye Brent staples Lauren Kelly Democratic Party Times Maimon Fourteen Opinion Journal Culture Race Education Jesse Wegmann
Why Endorse Two Candidates?

The Argument

37:44 min | 7 months ago

Why Endorse Two Candidates?

"It's the housing crisis. No one is talking about. Millions of hardworking families are struggling to find homes in their own communities. Take First Responder Officer Ramal Johnson. He and his family family searched for years in the pricey Washington. DC area with no luck then. Last February Melk lied to wells. Fargo's neighborhood lift program which offers down payment assistance grants. Soon soon. He and his family found a place to call their own. Learn more about wells. Fargo's new strategic efforts to help families find affordable homes visit wellsfargo dot com slash impact. I'm Michelle Goldberg. I'm Rostow third. I'm David Leonhardt and this is the argument this week. The New York Times editorial board has announced its presidential endorsement. We welcome the editor who oversaw the process to try to convince us. The board was right to choose not one but two candidates. If there's any regrets that I have is leaving the impression that I couldn't make up my mind and then a recommendation. It actually gave me a kind of deep appreciation asssociation for our yawning partisan to the Times editorial board usually endorses an establishment candidate for the Democratic nomination. It's endorsed bill. Clinton and Al Gore and John Kerry in two thousand eight the board chose Hillary Clinton over Barack Obama and in two thousand and sixteen chose Hillary again this time over Bernie Sanders This year the board has made the process more public than ever. The candid interviews were conducted on the record and published. Some of the deliberations were televised lost in the end. The board chose to different candidates a progressive Elizabeth Warren and a moderate Amy Klobuchar. That decision definitely got people talking. We're lucky that Katy Kingsbury who oversaw the process will be joining us today to talk about all of that. Katy is the Times as deputy epide- editorial page editor before she comes in. I should make clear that. Ross Michelle and I are not on the editorial board none of the OP. Ed Columnists are and we all. I feel fortunate to work at a place that celebrates debate and yes argument even among colleagues so before Katie joins US Russ and Michelle. What was your initial reaction into the joint endorsement Michelle? Well I was relieved that it wasn't Joe Biden and you know a lot of people really hated this. Online people were really angry online and and I think there was some initial misinterpretation that they were sort of saying. We'll just vote for a woman either Elizabeth Warren or Amy Klobuchar will do you know in some ways. The endorsement is kind of my own sinking which is vote for Elizabeth Warren. If you think Elizabeth Warren is to left for you vote for Amy Klobuchar Over Joe Biden so there was things in the endorsement that I thought were unfair. I thought some of the digs against Warren and also really against Bernie Sanders. Were a little unfair. But in terms of just advice to voters it was it aligned with what I think. Ross what you think I I mean I kind of hated it Since we're since we're being honest muster hopefully. I'll still have employment at the time after this conversation. My first thought was I. Guess Yeah I guess. To pick up from Michelle's she was relieved. They didn't pick Biden. Ice Looked at it and said okay. This means Biden is going to win And and it reminded me in a way of part of part of how the Republican primary process played out in two thousand sixteen. was that most of the elite factions within the Republican Party hated Donald Trump or disliked donald trump or at the very least were uncomfortable with Donald trump but they could never unite it and figure out which single candidate should you know be rallying point to actually beat Donald Trump and Joe Biden isn't Donald Trump but he's similar to trump in the only people who seem to like him are voters and don't you think Bernie Sanders don't you think you could say the same Bernie Sanders I mean. I think I I can do a riff on how this helps sanders too. I think that there's a world where a sort of anti Biden vote coalesce around Elizabeth Warren. There's there's a world where it somewhat more improbably coalesce around Amy Klobuchar but having the time aditorial board sort of a literal manifestation. The station of elite liberalism on offense intended guys Unable to actually recommend coalescing around a single figure just seemed like a sort of Nice distillation of how Biden's path to the nomination is going to work What did you think David? I'm not positive about this but I'm getting more secure or in the notion that I think Warren would make the best present but I'm not yet persuaded. She would make the best nominee because I really do think there's a chance she's less electable than some of the other candidates and I think has the best electability case and so I completely understand the desire to lift them. Both up But I also agree. It felt anti-climactic tactic to not help voters choose between these two and and let's be clear. Many voters aren't in a lane. They are trying to decide between club. CHARN Warren or between Bernie and Biden and so in any event. I'm really looking forward to having Kadian. So we can get her involved in this conversation So Katie Kingsbury. Welcome to the argument. Thanks for having me so. Let's start with the obvious question which is walk. Walk US through why you decided to go with two candidates. So it's it's fascinating. The reaction to this news has been a really interesting staying window into how voters as well as the general public are feeling about this race. It's clear that people are very frustrated. And you know what I went into this knowing and people were going to be really frustrated that we didn't choose one. I think people really need that sense of path. Forward of clarity of many of the things things that roster said in terms of unifying behind one candidate but increasingly after having spent hours and hours in the the boardroom interviewing each of these candidates it became clear to us that no matter what any of these candidates would be among among the most progressive presidents that the United States has ever had it how they would actually get that done where the differences really became came the most crystallized and that for us became a question of Elizabeth Warren who has the clearest diagnosis like no sense of what ails America today. And who has such a sense of urgency in her message it really matches the moment versus. Amy Klobuchar are who has this. Bipartisan track record of doing a lot of legislation with her Republicans across the aisle. And whose message is much more one of unity. And when one of the things that I really wanted to do was to reflect the vote of our board and this was the outcome. That relieve the most reflected the board's vote. Let me ask you one thing about that in particular because some of the discussion has has suggested that the Times was trying to send Sunday single message by endorsing too. But that's not what I saw when I watched the episode of the weekly. That had your deliberation to me. This was a divided board and I really really saw a what felt like a generational divide in which younger members of the board really wanted a proud progressive particularly warn and older older members of the board. I don't know what's the cutoff around. Forty forty five It's not perfect but older members of the board were really uncomfortable with that Disagreed with it on on the substance worried it was less electable and were much more comfortable with Buddha Jig or biden or ultimately a clip chart. Do you think that's fair. I think that's probably an over-simplification and I'm kind of curious where you think I fall on that divide Melissa just curious how old you think I am but I'm definitely not GonNa GonNa Guess Your Age But I will say I thought you were clearly on the more moderate side of that. Divide based on your questions and and maybe that's wrong. Maybe that's just what we saw on television but but to me you were sort of the leader of the of the moderate group. That's fascinating I am probably amongst the more moderate members of the board I am Generally generally just personally more conservative I was raised by Republicans And I com- from the Midwest where in general some the messages have not necessarily been resonating That's way over simplification But yes I am. I'm probably amongst the only members members of the board who go to church regularly and one of the questions that I ask. Almost every candidate was how they placed themselves in terms terms of Being where spirituality comes into their leadership style and how they talk about that because I do know that I was in Iowa in November and I remember one of the things I heard from. A lot of voters was a lot of disappointment in the lack of discussion of faith and spirituality among some of the Democratic candidates I also I guess because 'cause I'm you know raise. I was raised by two people from about ground state. I I really worry that. Some of the ways that I I feel this more with Warren then sanders but some of the ways that they are. You're talking a to voters and around. Their ideas might be off putting you know I think that one of the things that came up over and over again in both of our conversations with the candidates but also our deliberations with this question of electability. The reality is that twenty sixteen has taught us that trying trying to figure out who is going to be the most electable candidate versus. Donald Trump in November is probably a fool's errand so we started looking closer closer at the policy prescriptions. We started talking a little bit more about the actual messages of the candidates. And what we realized is that the Party needs to have that conversation conversation amongst itself. It's really not the role of data to`real board to determine the future of the Democratic Party and that the only vehicle that we really really have is people going out and voting to get a sense of what the Democratic voters want the future of the party to look like The Times got a certain amount of twitter grief before this guy before the endorsement was was announced for sort of doing doing some. You know some reality TV show sort of fireworks around around the endorsement and so on but generally I thought that whatever was lost in losing a certain the amount of behind closed doors. Honesty from politicians was more than gained back from the advantages of putting all of these men and women on the record in front of a group of smart questioners Over over an extended period of time I thought the whole thing went really well for the times and for readers and it it just makes makes it more baffling to me that at the end of the day the message was well. There's a choice between progressive path in a moderate path. And we'RE NOT GONNA make it for you. I mean it just it. It seems to me that that's the essence of what if there's any purpose to an editorial decision that's that's the purpose to tell readers voters this is what we think you should do. This is how the electability and Policy Bundle works together better with Kloba Char than Warren Governor Better with Warren Than Klobuchar. But I'm I'm sort of mystified. I think that those of US people external to the times and people internal like ourselves are just left with the impression that you know you guys deadlocked and the divisions in the party were sort of manifest within the times itself and so the deadlock gave us a tie basically and and I thought I have such a different. I take that point. I have such a different way of thinking about what the purpose of an endorsement is. The man that yeah. I mean for me. The endorsement is really supposed to be an exercise in informing readers better about the candidates especially on the state and local level but also in terms of the presidential pick and I I guess I have never thought of it as something that we are supposed to go and tap pinned back a candidate and you know pull put put our full weight behind them. I've I really wanted to inform readers. Give them a better sense offensive. How we measure these candidates after we spent able to spend a lot of time with them and this really felt to to me the most journalistic and intellectually honest result As well as the endorsement that is going to be the most useful for a wider range of voters I and I felt I feel really torn. I agree Ross. With this perception that people think the board was torn because the board was torn. And if there's any regret that I have is leaving the impression impression that I couldn't make up my mind In some ways kind of the transparency lessons endorsements potency because because it no longer has the voice of God Feeling to it right. You sort of see how the sausage is made but it does increase their utility you because you can sort of see all of these candidates being grilled by the same people right. I think Katie was right and talking about it. As a journalistic analyst exercise else agree with Katie that endorsements are more important for local races. You know I end up paying a ton of attention to them when it comes to the things like voting for judges in New York I'm going to be less swayed by the Times decision at the presidential level. But you know there's a lot of people trying to make their minds and just as often I think when we write an op Ed. It's less distortive. Try to convince people than to you. Lay out a way of thinking about something. I think. Endorsements can be very useful in just sort of helping to clarify people's thinking about the different candidates. Ross I I feel like your criticisms raised some larger interesting questions which is should newspapers even be in the business of endorsing candidates I'm sure they do it differently. From the way they did in the past. Is that right well. I think there's an open question about the viability and purpose of an editorial page in the age of innumerable takes and personalized journalism and the decline of institutional power and so on And I think what what my my sense of what we've tried to do is to reduce the number of editorials that we right with the idea being that when the times weighs in on something it should mean in more than just you know for editorials a day on sixteen different subjects and I think that's a reasonable approach and again. It's why I'm sort of baffled by this outcome. Because if that's the goal to reduce the number of reduced the number of editorials we do to try and make each editorial more meaningful and more sort of a more important statement of where the time stands than you know. This is an important moment. We did a big build up. People are going into the polls in Iowa very shortly and You know we didn't tell them who to vote for. And I think we should have. Okay we're going to devote today's entire show go to this conversation but let's take a quick break now and we'll be right back to talk about Joe Biden Bernie Sanders and more it is. It's the housing crisis. No one is talking about. Millions of hardworking families are struggling to find homes in their own communities. Take First Responder Officer Ramal Johnson. He and his family searched for years in the pricey Washington. DC area with no luck then last February romolo applied hi to Wells Fargo's neighborhood lift program which offers down payment assistance grants soon. He and his family found a place to call their own. Learn more about wells. Fargo's new strategic efforts to help what families find affordable homes visit wellsfargo dot com slash impact. Welcome back to our conversation with Katie Kingsbury. Deputy editorial page editor here at the Times. This is inside baseball. But I'm still curious to hear your thoughts about it. which is did you ever consider? Maybe doing two editorials aditorial in which say you would write. The full throated endorsement of Klobuchar and a more progressive member would write a full throated endorsement of Warren. It's interesting that in the end people feel like it was written more in favor of closure then Elizabeth Warren. I'm because I actually feel pretty strongly that they both would be excellent presidents. You you know if I had to go into a ballot box today I had to choose between closure and Warren I probably I probably would vote for Elizabeth Warren for one. She she absolutely. Is this brilliant architect tech of regulation. She understands how to use the regulatory system in ways that are pretty astounding. Whoever the next president is if there's Mitch McConnell is still in the Senate than you are going to have to use regulation to get things done? Can I ask a question about Joe Biden. I mean it seemed to me one of the big takeaways. As was that when everybody voted he didn't even make the top four. Yeah and I'm curious. I mean I was. I think that reflects may own alarm about about what a biden candidacy would look like but at the same time there was a moment after his interview where everybody said. Oh we're really worried about you. Know the Joe Biden would show up. He was much smarter than We were expecting so. Can you talk a little bit about The board's reservations about Joe Biden Annan. Right after we had The outbreak of conflict with Iran. I sat down and I wrote an entire endorsement of Joe Biden and I thinks that came from a desire on my part for the comfort of having someone who during his interviews books so fluently about foreign policy. Also who's been in the room in some of those more difficult decision making who was a vocal opponent to the worn Afghanistan ascending sending more troops there And I wrote that out a full draft I mean literally two thousand word draft I'm talking about why. Joe Biden is the best Democrat to be president and I felt so It didn't match the moment in any way by which I mean as a board that that has you know all of its values are under girded by institutions and norms. In a lot of ways I think one the things that's come through in the last three years is how we a lot of those institutions are and how they really need to be reconsidered in how our economic and political systems should at least be examined as to whether or not they need to be overhauled and that's not Joe Biden's message at all. Joe Biden's this message simply as let's go back to normal whatever normal is right like I mean there are a lot of for a lot of Americans normal wasn't working and I think that there needs to some recognition that at least for some portion of the American public the government and the economic systems. Things were failing them and I think that is why at least in part Donald trump was elected president and returning to what Biden is offering thing it just felt like tinkering around the edges when the house is on fire and we need to have a really close examination of what needs to change in this country and I didn't I didn't. It doesn't come through when you talk to the former vice president that he understands that urgency agency that he gets that people need something different Do you have any regrets about Describing Elizabeth Warren with the phrase gifted storyteller. Since I'll I'll speak for the unrepresented right wing of Americ- in this conversation and note that one of the chief critiques of Elizabeth Warren from the right and not only from the right is that Some of some crucial moments in her political career involved telling stories. That were not necessarily true. Do I think what you're alluding to is Some of the way. She presented her native American heritage at the beginning of the campaign. And that's that's actually one of the political missteps that I am talking about when I say that I'm a little have some reservations about her. Political instincts stinks in this campaign. You know just everything about that episode From the fact that she hadn't talked to the tribal leaders the fact that she decided she neither should do it at all You know and and sort of then should duggar heels in and doubled down on it. It just was so cringe-worthy the and I worry about. What would we see in general election? What if anyone's real question is who can be trump and that should give them a lot of hesitation? I mean I didn't love the way she handled that but I I would also remind us all that Ronald Reagan said something ridiculous about trees and Barack Obama talked about bitter people clinging to their guns and George Bush. Kirsten open microphone back when politicians didn't do that and in along presidential campaign I feel like everyone has is a big mess up. I guess my perception watching I mean I. I sort of assumed that Warren was going to get the boards was going to be the boards. Pick doc because my perception is that Warren is the candidate who is preferred by most people in our profession and sort of in the liberal intelligence writ large that's been my perception of journalistic coverage to and I. I think I think that Warren I think she is a gifted storyteller and there've been a bunch of incidents where her storytelling seems to run ahead of the facts. And I think neither are part out of the media nor Arrivals have really challenged her her attacker on this stuff. But I I actually think that's an area of vulnerability for Warren that's clearer clearer than it is for Sanders or Kovic are a lot of other candidates. That hasn't really been picked up in the way. Her campaign has been covered and attacked act. So you're getting at probably the biggest reason why I did not want to just outright endorse Elizabeth Warren. One of one of. which is I really worried that my perception of Elizabeth Warren should not be the guiding light? Here you know because I I am a member of the media for better or worse we are very privileged and we are part of the elite And I also feel like there. There hasn't necessarily been the critical coverage. I mean I don't WanNa that's the two. I'm putting that too strongly. Do you think that. Of course media's covering Elizabeth Warren strongly wrongly but I I don't feel like there has been as much critical Coverage of hers. I would have expected. I think it's reasonable to point to some things things and ask why there hasn't been more coverage I guess I would say though to me. On some of our policies there's been a lot of coverage in it's been really negative. I mean the number of negative stories about the wealth tax in mainstream publications about how it could reduce economic growth. And cause all these problems. That's an interesting debate. But it's been very much from the standpoint of essentially the center and The coverage of both Warren and Sanders. I think is not overly favorable on their policies. And we don't need need to go into a diagnosis of all coverage here. But I don't think it's just a matter of liberal bias. I think there's kind of a mix of liberal bias affluence bias and also centrist bias. Let's let's also I mean it's interesting because Amy Klobuchar has also not really been subject to very much Scrutiny in part because she just hasn't risen yet to the top tier here you know we we would hear a lot more about how she treats her staff which I think for a lot of young voters particularly that you need to excite seems like could deal breaker because or really for anyone has had an abusive boss Could end up being quite serious Drawback back and then I ask you. Can I interrupt Michelle The coverage of her as a boss. You think that there's a misogynistic element into that. No I mean first of all you know. It was notable enough that you know Harry Talk to her about it right. She had this kind of turnover record and I think anybody in journalism knows that the stories that have been out there are You know even though of course so far. They're just rumors they're still rumors. That would give me paused that. There's some some other kind of shoe about drop before we go. I think it's important to spend a few minutes on Bernie And I know Bernie Bro. But I do SORTA WANNA make the case for Bernie Given Katie your own standards for this endorsement and and here why he just wasn't appealing to you. which is you've Said said that part of the reason Abidin endorsement would felt so off? Is this moment calls for something. Bigger than let's go back to Barack Obama's number two it calls for someone who Who understands the level of frustration? Out there and Bernie Sanders clearly. Does he has been talking about it for decades. His message has been extremely consistent. He does draw support from surprising. Places and so given that Why isn't he potentially a really good option for the Democrats to nominate to take on Donald Donald Trump and and match the kind of passion that trump side has with with a more productive passion from the left? I think actually in terms of for us we really consider this sort of Sanders versus Warren And we can debate the merits Maritza. That if you want but I think it was his health issues. That really gave me personally pause. I totally get hip. He'll of Bernie Sanders. I actually think he is I could sit here and make the case for you. That he would be the right person to WANNA put up against Donald Trump in particular just because of his stubbornness but I I felt that especially because When we were talking to him it was in early? The December he was full of energy and actually very warm himself. You can when you're in a room with him. You can kind of understand why I there are so many people who are attracted his candidacy but for one thing. A lot of his positions are much further to the left. Then the board president's or History would Support the other is that He is he would be. I think seventy nine when he entered office and he had just had a heart attack. He hadn't released his health records when we had had this vote. And I think that was one of the major reasons that I felt like Elizabeth Warren if you wanted to progressive candidate was the right a person so you know. Obviously I agree with that assessment but the thing I thought was a little bit. Unfair to Bernie. Was this idea that he's you know incapable a bowl of compromise. That he's really you know. I think it said three years. Into the trump administration we see little advantage to exchanging one over promising divisive visit figure in Washington for another. You know he actually has compromised a lot right. He's worked with some really surprising people to get legislation passed you know John McCain McCain. He's worked with Mike Lee on foreign policy. He's been he's never really been a spoiler when it comes to passing compromise progressive legislation right like the affordable. Care Act. He he basically does sort of go along with the team most of the time. I think that's pretty affair when he talks about for instance Medicare for all he's like we're getting matter of fact care for all you know he won't even consider a public option. My guess is that when push came came to shove and he was presented with the public option. He would sign it but I guess I'm looking for A presidential candidate that that is wants to kind of go in with the idea that compromises necessary. We you know if people disagree with this decision. They should go and read the transcripts of all the candidates interviews all thirty thousand words of each of them and make up their own mind. This was really an exercise in helping people make their own choice. And Yeah and I and I WANNA say since I'm since I'm playing the role of critic critic I think all of the material is terrific and interesting and a great service to people trying to make their minds. I'm just excited for the Times. Endorsement Endorsement Special in twenty twenty four when we endorse both Bernie Sanders for reelection and Josh Holly Running Against Him I think I'm I'm ready. Well I think I. I don't know I'll be curious whether or not we're still doing. Endorsements in twenty twenty twenty four but I really think that over the next four years we're going to keep having that conversation Katie Kingsbury. Thank you so much for joining us. It Oh Now it's time for our weekly recommendation. When we make a suggestion that is meant to take your mind off of the news of the day? This week is my turn and Ross. I'm going to borrow the technique used a couple of weeks ago in which I'm going to start off with the story so I am as you both know a fan. Dan Of Boston sports teams. I lived in Boston from when I was two eight. The formative years for sports fans. I'm a Red Sox Fan. I'm a Patriots Fan. My wife grew up in Houston Houston in a family of baseball fans. In fact she grew up with season tickets to the Houston Astros and is a lifelong astros fan and as some listeners may know there is a sort of thread that runs through the three teams. That I have just mentioned the Houston Astros the Boston Red Sox and the New England patriots. which is they have? All credibly been accused recently of cheating the Astros and red SOx of using video to steal the opposing team's signs. So they know what pitch is coming in and for the Patriots. It's a long list of cheating accusations that they deflate. Footballs in videotape. Other teams and do all sorts of things and as I have been coping with these revelations in recent weeks and deciding what I think about them. I've basically come up with a kind of an excuse in defense for all of them. which is yes the Astros were cheating but so do all teams in the Astros? Were just better at it and the excuse for the Patriots is going to be cheating. No I'll get right there. I can tell you about like the crazy. Science of how the Patriots didn't really deflate the balls and it was due to weather and as I thought through all these things it actually gave me a kind of deep appreciation for our yawning partisan divide and how we basically Siklie end up believing what we want to believe and Nate Cohn. The Times's polling expert has said aversion as he says he he has a better insight into how people feel about politics when he thinks about how he feels about the Seattle seahawks his favorite football team than anything else and so I guess my recommendation is it either. Think about how your own sports loyalties or loyalties and other parts of your life can warp your views of reality and then try to apply that to politics and Ross. I'm baiting you a little bit here. But nothing has given me a better appreciation for how conservatives can think the crazy crazy things they do about climate change then my own views of the Houston Astros and the New England patriots. Well I mean I think one I think cure right and to. There's a guy named a ton. Her shoe has a new book called Politics for power and one of his arguments is that that especially for upper middle class educated people in the age of the Internet. It's become a lot easier to approach politics the way you follow all of sports like you know this sort of constant online stream of information. And he's arguing that this takes people away from the real work of politics. which is you know showing up at town meetings or at your local board meetings and organizing and doing things doing things in the real world? Maybe the age of Cable News on the Internet has made it easier to approach politics in this sort of fan spirit or hobbyists spirit instead of sort of citizens spirit. Maybe so I would flip this around Because I'm completely insensible to the appeal of sports and so I would say maybe thinking about how I think think about politics could help me understand what people feel about sports and really they feel anything about them And but the other thing I would say is that you know. I wrote a column once kind of trying to imagine how I would react to a Fictional left-wing version of trump. I felt like was steamrolling. All of my enemies And you know the temptation that would be there to sort of swallow your unease and how difficult it might be to break with all of your ideological allies At the same time I do think that the fundamental difference between Liberals and Conservatives is that David you are kind of having this Self critical at a coal conversation with yourself about sort of how you rationalize things away. That shouldn't be rationalized away. And you know the very fact that you sort of recognize your own partisanship as something to try to intellectually transcend and Is I think something that is much more common on one side of the political divide than the other. I think we've gotten away from the escaped from politics takes aspect of the recommendations. You're totally wrong. Michelle and not side any evidence to David Wednesday recommendation. My recommendation Asian is stop being so hard on the New England Patriots and Houston Astros. That's our show this week. Thank you so much for listening if you have thoughts or ideas. Leave us a voicemail voicemail at three four seven nine one five four three two four you can also emails at argument at NY TIMES DOT Com. And if you he likes you hear please leave us a rating or review apple podcasts. If you WANNA listen to the longer interviews that the board did each candidate subscribe to the choice. podcast broadcast this week. Show is produced by Mattie Foley for Transmitter Media and edited by Sarah Knicks. Our executive producer is Greg. We had help from Tyson John Evans phoebe Ian Percent Philbrick and Francis Ying of the Kaiser Family Foundation our theme was composed by Alison Tweeden. We'll we'll see you back here next week. I I agree with you. Katie and for the record. I assume that you are at the same age as I am. which is a very young looking twenty-seven exactly?

Elizabeth Warren Katie Kingsbury the Times Amy Klobuchar Joe Biden Bernie Sanders Donald Donald Trump Bernie Sanders Joe Biden Ross Michelle Biden Ross David Leonhardt Barack Obama Washington Houston Astros New England patriots Fargo US Responder Officer Ramal Johnso editor
Deval Patrick: The Deliberation

The Choice

18:27 min | 6 months ago

Deval Patrick: The Deliberation

"The New York Times critic's pick to kill a mockingbird is beautiful elegiac satisfying even exhilarating raves. Jesse Green it's the most successful American play in Broadway early. History says sixty minutes rolling. Stone gives mockingbird five stars calling it a landmark production of an American classic and. NPR says it's one of the greatest plays in history history all rise. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mockingbird a new play by Aaron sorkin directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot com. Welcome back to the choice from the New York Times opinion section. I'm Katie Kingsbury last episode. You heard the board interview former Massachusetts Governor unearned all Patrick in this episode. You'll hear we had to say after. Mr Patrick walked up the door. You haven't heard the interview. Go back and listen to that first. Twenty Today Day to talk about Mr Patrick's visit and the candidates porn policy positions. Is Alex Kingsbury. My name is Alex Kingsbury cover issues about technology politics foreign policy in the military and no. We're not related before we turn to war. Let's listen to what the board had to say. After the Patrick Kane Review are still trying to figure out what the central organizing principle in this campaign and that was my question. I just I mean you can like you need. Slogans are silly but there are also effective if I was you know writing his campaign by basically basically say listen. Massachusetts is pretty much the nearest thing we have to the things that Democrats say they want in this country. I helped to implement it. Let me do it for the nation. I think there are problems with that message. And not particularly sure he's making it but that seems to be the obvious campaign platform guy as he was trying to make that that message but he just failed thank accuse he's kind of a problem solver and a practical guy and didn't stand out in any other way. Yeah I mean I. I've always thought of him. Even Massachusetts Very honorable and decent man in age of unreason. I mean he's going to be going up against trump president doesn't exist. Convene all these people and work. No that's not the country today. He just seemed to float above everything. He just sort of I wouldn't even call it a loof. It was more just Distant and unconnected to the anger into the he said he's impatient hissy fits and I was looking at this guy and I'm like you don't you don't simply someone who has hissy fits or patient. He did as governor. I are plenty of examples of him. I mean I think that there the question would be. How effective active those were all and also seem connected to the public's emotional the cord that needed to be struck? That's kind of what I'm Messing I. I agree with you that I didn't hear that today. I mean historically. I've actually never seen a better retail politician Avenue I think he actually is an extraordinary titian one on one on their luck people in Massachusetts who disagree with a lot of his decisions as governor but they would tell you the person. I don't think any of that means you should be president president. I don't really think to the wrong conclusion here. But just for one second that he is essentially unique among the candidates and actually having executive accurate experience in government and one of the things that that creates a record and that record has a lot of problems in it. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't take those problems seriously but you know part of the reason that we have all of these specific things to talk about with him is that he is actually run something. You can talk about Bloomberg Bloomberg chooses join us. That's fine but we haven't done we've been talking with a bunch of people who get to have ideas and proposals have absolutely no record of actually deciding how you run health and Human Services and I do think that you you know that obviously sits around his neck in a race but it's also the case that he has some tangible accomplishments. The one question that didn't get to ask him because I was so infuriated about his fan response was was about the Boston bombings and like he was. I was there for that. I mean he was very sort of cool under pressure executive making very difficult decisions. Sessions that have been scrutinized incredibly in the years afterwards and I know he's still stands by them which is why didn't ask it but like if I was campaigning I would be like. Hey I'm the guy who you know. Got Out through the Boston bombing and made a lot of hard decisions and there was just so many things they had direct experience with and he didn't mention a single one of them like he could make the strongest case for a public option if he wanted to because he's been on the ground with the weird thing is here. We are making a stronger case for him and I do think having having sort of a lifetime altering event like he described as what made him pause for almost a year is really i. I could see that sort of permanently altering the way he would approach this and that and that he in that he's not remember remember a year and a half ago his name came up and there was a there was an eagerness and excitement about it and then he didn't get in I and people just moved on and I didn't realize what he was dealing with at the time but it doesn't surprise me that he hasn't gotten back on the horse really he doesn't he just doesn't seem there. Thanks for joining us. Alex so Alex in addition to sharing last name you and I both had the pleasure of Davao. Patrick has our governor. When we were working in Boston what was your opinion of Patrick when he was governor? I thought develop Patrick was a good governor of Massachusetts Massachusetts he He did a lot of things he left with. Pretty high approval ratings He helped managed the the the other side of the housing crisis which was really good and sort of got the state In a good place and then there were the the management of the Boston marathon bombings. which was probably you know? As moment of greatest crisis as governor. I thought one of the interesting things from the endorsement interview is the fact that he didn't really make the case that he had a governing record. That others didn't have yeah. I was surprised A to. I don't even think the marathon bombing came up or only in passing That such a rare moment for governors especially to have of such executive experience on their resume. In the fact that Patrick didn't reference it with us was was authentic curious emission just given that that really does separate him from the field in terms of people who can and point to you know executive national security experience sort of in their own backyard. I mean governor. Patrick's management of that crisis was not without his critics remember. He shut down the entire Boston Metropolitan Region with a very controversial decision. I mean especially because healthcare is such a central point to this election and and the fact that he implemented Romney care is such a direct example of something that a lot of these presidential candidates are pitching they WANNA do. It's interesting that he he didn't even focus on that What were your overall impressions of him in the endorsement interview? My overall impressions of develop Patrick is that. He's a deeply honorable guy. I am a very dishonorable era He's he's a nice guy he's not. You know political knife fighter And so two imagine him going up against Trump is at it is sort of an odd odd pairing But listen he you know. He's he's running on sort of a good news message. What's interesting is that it really hasn't sort of caught on? He has resume isn't executive And a governor and you know pulling a zero so the governor is such a good good retail politician One of the things I was reminded of as he arrived at the time for his interview was the fact that he He makes a connection with individuals very quickly. That doesn't even come through in the interview with us He seemed a little bit defensive. He seemed a little bit on the back of his heels. It didn't seem prepared. He didn't prepare it in. He seems to have one uncle. They lost a step but he seems to have lost a bit of the spark that he had when he was governor and granted. That was that was a few years ago but again you know these are interviews. Where politician comes in and get one shot at it so there are going to be politicians who have kind of bad days are who not their best or you have a cup of coffee? And that's sort of the perils barrels of doing these interviews more from our deliberations after a quick break to kill a mockingbird is unmissable and unforgettable raves rolling Stone Five Stars Ars The New York Times declared it a critics pick calling Aaron sorkin new play beautiful elegiac satisfying even exhilarating A.. Mockingbird for our moment and sixty minutes says it's the most successful American play in Broadway history. A New York magazine calls it a real phenomenon. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mockingbird directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot com. Welcome back to choice. Sorry right trampled your question on Afghanistan. I interrupted you to just really starting to Piss me off. He thought about it. I was like wait a minute. This idea Eddie. He wouldn't say something because he was governor. Like that's what he was saying but like that and see exactly what he said. Because that's an answerable. ooh He just made it up. I don't think he's thought that there wasn't a plan while he was over there. That's after the fact that's what I yeah. This is our seventh candidate. And I've yet to meet one who it makes me feel like I want them in charge of our foreign policy. I tend to agree with you. A few interviews into the endorsement process. The Washington Post published the Afghanistan papers basically demonstrating that the American people had been lied to for years about the prospect of success in Afghanistan. How did that change the questions? You wanted to ask the candidates ahead ahead. Sort of a a variety of military foreign policy questions lined up And when those stories broke it was over a couple of days It seemed just very clarifying sort of issue that you could raise directly with the candidates is one thing for them to say sort of as they all do the the wars have gone on for too along and we really need to to end them. This kind of calls for deeper reckoning and it wasn't just that the American people have been lied to by people who are actively sort of saying one thing about the war and knew that it was something different But there are a lot of people who who said and did nothing and I think that was one of the things that I brought up with. Patrick specifically was raising this issue with him. Not Not of lying so much silence and you can't have the situation. We had in Afghanistan without a a good measure of both. You probably remember going pretty hard at him but this idea that he went to Afghanistan any new that there are a grave problems and then he didn't say anything with really fascinating to me. I mean that is for me the story of those Afghan papers. It's that so many people cycled through see what was going on And didn't do anything to to change the public narrative. which is the victory was possible? Right Theresa Alarm in public You asked all of the candidates about Afghanistan and America's military involvements off mints. We also ask them all about Turkey and nuclear weapons China's democracy and Israel and Palestine. was there right answer. We were looking for. And what would the board have wanted to hear air from the candidates when it came to foreign policy and military philosophy. The campaigns have focused so much on domestic issues. Because that's something that voters say they really care about in foreign policy always ranks very low in terms of issues that voters say they care about But I think that is sort of a failure of the framing of of foreign policy policy. We tend to think of it as sort of A. Oh it's it's just a military issue or it's just this or that and really the issues that are animating these these campaigns from you know global global wealth inequality to climate change international terrorism and the radicalization abilities of the Internet. Those are those are foreign policy issues and so you hear ear. Some candidates specifically about climate change. They're sort of a good international consensus kind of peg that they could say about that in terms of the military stuff. It's it's harder because they always refuse to answer hypothetical so if you say well Beijing's GonNa Flood Pong Kong. What would you do about it? That's sort of a trap for any kind of candidate to to do that. But to your point I think we were looking for people who thought about these issues in a sort of a substantive way And and we're able to talk with them to a certain amount of fluency And I think what really came through for the candidates with a thinner Foreign Policy resume is that they really couldn't get beyond a lot of the talking points. You you know you can. Somebody like Joe Biden could really dig down on Turkish policy between the United States and Turkey for twenty years And you know and budget as well. It was a very thoughtful about about foreign affairs and really came through the candidates. Who Sort of didn't think about it or aren't thinking about in a really nuanced way? I think one reason ask about foreign foreign policy is to see how quickly they think on their feet And to see her that executive ability as you describe it in action so one of the things that that impressed me about the vice president's answer around the question of Protests in Hong Kong was that he had like a real answer he he came into it in a concrete way you could tell he then in those situations and had had to make those kinds of fast decision making a new who the partners to tap. Were others as you say they're answering for very gauzy. It was something about Oh consistently well we would remind China of the importance of human human rights. And if you have a military escalation of the hypothetical that we were describing that wasn't very comforting it wasn't doesn't comforting and I was struck by how thin a lot of these responses were on foreign affairs. It's one thing for a candidate to be fluent in these in discussing these kinds of issues. It's another thing for them to have the confidence of their convictions that they can tell a general who wants to launch an airstrike. No and I think that's one of the things that's really come. Come through. The trump administration is that there are moments of international crisis for which decisions need to be made. And the people you surround yourself with Is going going to help you make those decisions or make sure the decisions get made in a in a substantive way but you know the president needs to have the the confidence to be able to tell people know and in you know too many presidents have sort of acquiesced to what the military wants a lot of different situations and that's not an encouraging sign so I was looking for a lot more confidence on on four four hundred and didn't really. I don't want to go as far as today. He lied but he just evaded your question on one hundred percent on on. You might have lied when he said there was nobody. I asked him pointedly. There was nobody governor exactly so that can't true. The things about the governor's council around commutations and clemency and pardons there were dozens of cases pending the. There's no yeah no way if he had impressed. The Governor's Council for more names that they would have delivered. I mean I don't know one of the advantages. We had an interviewing while. Patrick was the fact that we both had been and reporters at the Boston Globe during his tenure as governor so we knew a lot about the episodes that happened during his gubernatorial terms. We could ask Kim direct questions about that and paints a much rosier picture than we probably remember from the actual period. I think specifically around the decision to fire the government officials responsible for adding his brother-in-law to a sex offenders registry. He kept insisting he couldn't recuse himself and he might be right. Massachusetts just lives very complicated but again if the path to the nomination has to wind its way through you know a dozen provincial scandals Massachusetts than your campaigns and kind of a tough spot you know I think the ball Patrick wants to be talking about his big ideas and not his granular record on a lot of the stuff. That isn't that the most fascinating part about Nevada Patrick's campaign which is is that his message of unity is so flat and people are so uninterested in that we're getting into the nitty gritty with him. It just really isn't. Yeah no I think that's right. He just he I mean he hasn't sort of managed as a campaign to lift his head above water really or get noticed and and be able to Have these conversations on his own terms so yeah I mean if you're if you're going back through the record there's only a certain number of sort of things that you return to again again again to try and Suss out from emojis. Larger convictions are and the way he would operate. as president. So it's a tough sell for somebody like that. Who's going back to the same? You know pretty late. Someone who is such a fascinating background coming from Chicago and near-poverty lifting himself up from that going to built an academy then then going to elite universities having such a distinguished career in the private sector being elected governor and yet he's just like so many candidates actually that would have once been obvious Democratic candidates for president. He's just not breaking through. No He's not an and as I said he's sort of. He's an honorable guy and he's done some good work in the public interest and unfortunately just doesn't seem to be the same candidate. You know the the same person who was as governor You know he's gotten a little older. The country's changed pretty dramatically in terms of what the what the vocabulary around political debate is and he's just sort of seems ill suited to the moment. Thank you Alex thank you so. That's IT for develop Patrick Tune into tomorrow's episode here Vice President Biden Disgust warn policy the Hyde amendment. And those darn millennials. Thanks for listening the choices produced by atwill Media Mitch Blasting Molly Socia- Ashley Taylor and Rachel Lightner with help from Michel Mason Mixing Mixing Bhai Lauren Gardner and original music by Allison Leyton Brown special. Thanks to Tyson Evans from the New York. Times are executive producers. Are Well Manati from atwill media and Phoebe Phoebe let from the New York Times. Finally we wanna hear from you please. Rate and review us on the apple podcasts. At it'll help more voters find the show

Mr Patrick Massachusetts executive president Alex Kingsbury The New York Times Boston Afghanistan Ed Harris Aaron sorkin Bartlett Sher Patrick Kane Lee Jesse Green Joe Biden Katie Kingsbury vice president
Amy Klobuchar: The Deliberation

The Choice

17:39 min | 7 months ago

Amy Klobuchar: The Deliberation

"The New York Times critic's pick to kill a mockingbird is beautiful elegiac satisfying even exhilarating raves. Jesse Green it's the most successful American can play in Broadway. History says sixty minutes rolling. Stone gives mockingbird five stars calling it a landmark production of an American classic and. NPR says it's one of the greatest plays in history all rise. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill him. Mockingbird a new play by Aaron sorkin directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot dot com. Welcome back to the choice. The presidential endorsement podcast from the New York Times editorial board. I'm Katie Kingsbury Kingsbury last episode. You heard the board Grill Minnesota senator. Amy Klobuchar this episode. You'll hear what we had to say. One Senator Cobra shot left the room. If you haven't heard the interview go back and listen to that. I really meet today to talk about the senator's visit and Minnesota Nice is the longest tenured. Board member Mr Brent Staples My name is Brent Staples I write about politics. This culture economic race history the whole range of things New York Times editorial board before we go all midwest on you. Let's listen to what the board thought of Senator Kosher so if you go through kind of categories she obviously has more experience than all these guys. She also has the details but she didn't go into all she knows how the levers work she knows. What livers are at her disposal? She knows how to talk about it. She knew how to address specific policies. She has kind of an ideological theme team which is beyond the pipedream. Planning bring people with you. You can't just go in and hammer people. You have to kind of build momentum anthem. She has the cultural argument with the Mid West and she knows how to take the plainspoken steps. You're not thinking so what she is. Short on is charisma and the inspiration which is speaking a little bit to kind of the early poll numbers but as far as a lot of categories go. She has a clearer. Plus I. It's clear to see what she standing for than some of them but the point She may have a certain type of charisma. Azuma in her straightforwardness to people in which then maybe that will come out as this goes along because as she rightly notes. When you're dealing with three hundred hundred fifty people on stage at any point she saves all sodas or flashiest? Also I could see the latent you can see the late and feature of one is time she will go for the Jug. Yeah Yeah you can see. That's what surprised me is like. I liked her more than I expected to and felt that more than I expected to. I felt like I could see her on a debate. Stage with trump holding her own. And when I've watched her in the bigger debates I did not feel that I mean she plays more like a governor. Yes what other. I think we saw strengths with her. You know this to me I must tell you is from where I'm sitting. A kind of charisma you know Basic basic sort of like utilitarian you know cut the difference get it done And you know the delusion to the Union I mean to the iron belt and everything telling you. That's that's a good credit to have. You've really gets interesting. You'd say she played like a government actually at a very different impression of her that she played like a legislator constant process constantly saying saying that the key is to create a legislative package. I think those are important skills. Actually don't know exactly where I come down on this. But another version of a president is that that's the person articulates a strong vision and tries to inspire people and to lead people in that direction and knows where they want to go and disabled to accomplish something by virtue of that. And so I do worry a little bit about this mentality of basically like we need to talk to everyone and figure out what everyone wants. And then we'll put together a compromise. It feels to me like that is definitely how you are effective in Congress I. I wonder if she was sitting here. She'd say I've already said I'm going to do one hundred thanks. There's not a lot of that is going to reverse. What trump did yesterday? It's not that impressive things on the list but you know what L. at Charlie jump in here. I thought one one issue that spoke to a lot of this it was interesting to me was talking about guns and then talking about the failures and the failures and failures and then the Parkland kids but also in with her sort of like moderate type of position Shen the Parkland kids like very radical like the situation. It was very like there's no tolerance for this. It was like it felt kinda different and she kept talking about the failures of that sort of like consensus tried to work with everyone approach. And then there's this outrage from this other side and I and I don't know I I felt the same way that I was very really overwhelmed by all like the bill name-dropping And I didn't feel that sense of charisma Like I didn't feel that sense of. I felt that sense of leadership in technocratic adequate but not in a not in a I didn't feel it in the room the way I felt with other candidates. I think she's selling stability. which is something that given? Given the trump era a lot of Americans want right like a lot of people want stability again. I agree with you. I think that does resonate with older voters more than it resonates with younger voters but I agree with you. I mean I think that that one of the reasons that we didn't have to ask her repeatedly about Mitch. McConnell Senate is because she's a plan for that and that was clear in the first few few minutes of talking but everyone has said this several times. She doesn't inspire you the same way you note. Note is the urgency there. Yeah well I think I was at Warren who came in and said well listen. My fear is not going to get everything done but at least I've aimed here and so where do you WanNa start negotiating point. Yes I agree with you. I I also think that like to go back to Janine said I do think some of her plans are bolder than they seem on paper. Because I you know we have gotten to the point where we hear people like Bernie Bernie End Elizabeth Warren and others Talking in such sweeping terms that Even some of the plans that she has which would be extremely move the country forward in important ways I mean particularly around adoption and people forget to drop it from the affordable care act and now we take it for granted like Oh. That's like the week sauce. Relatives offering progress at the debate has moved that far but that doesn't mean that public option isn't actually a huge leap forward and wouldn't be a strenuous left at would. That was a lot of good here. Yeah there's a lot of good here and I want to applaud the focus on home health care workers. I think is correct diagnosis. And the correct frame for dealing so Brent. What are your impressions of Senator Klobuchar? I was surprised at how much I I liked her When we met in person because I think her the charisma the midwestern calm charisma that she has didn't come through in the debates? The in person you get a sense of a real sense of a solid committed person with some basic ideas that she knows how to present industry forward forward away and I spent a lot of time in the mid Western highway and our neighboring state in the next two Minnesota So her way of speaking uh-huh resonates deeply with me. Yeah you and I are both not from the Midwest but we have a lot of family there and so I think that midwestern affect really comes through with her I I mean how does that compare to for instance Mayor Pete. I see Mayor Pete as he is. The young guy in the campaign and his appeal is is primarily his US in the context of a field. It's really tilted toward Octogenarian almost you know And he has a similar kind of affect. When you meet him? You can identify him as midwestern it. It doesn't have teeth to sort of soaring. Rhetoric is not there but you get a sense of basics with him to do you think being from a state like Minnesota is a boon in this particular election mirror. I do I think that For a woman like club. I can't closure three times senator Off from this from the solid midwest state who plays well in conservative areas plays well with Labour's plays well with miners and steel workers workers and those kinds of people I think that's very. It's a very translatable skill One of the one of the mysteries of campaigning is why a person that it has so many features so many desirable features doesn't break through But I have to tell you I have been looking for her to break through in her neighboring stayed in Iowa because she has the kind of communication skills and the midwestern personnel that on paper should play big there so that's so as translatable to the Midwest and she's she's she's made that point very effectively that in fact she wins in a on on the Dakota side. She wins on the highway side. She wins in the hiring range as powerful record Yeah I agree with you although one of the questions I think that is still very open is how well she'll do with communities of color. Well I think that's We gotta remember that. The communities of color are particularly Prime Matic people in we think back to two thousand eight. How people in South Carolina in the south in the in the in the black belt and south where hearing toward Hillary Clinton as opposed to Obama until he won Iowa? You know that picture could change very quickly depending on how the election plays out because the people begin to focus more as you become more plausible in South Carolina Alabama became plausible after after black people in South Carolina. saw that white people and high will vote for. It's funny mentioned John Kerry before because I think like when people spend a certain amount of time marinating in the Senate they become creatures of the Senate and the everything that they see about the world and understand. Dan Disturbs seen through the Lens of incredibly dysfunctional body of governing in the United States. That's like some real problems and I was trying to get my question about. Afghanistan is for her take some sort of responsibility that the Senate has led to a lot of problems that we're seeing in sort of in the national news functions. You know if you just if everything you see is sort of a you know through your authorize senator. That can be tough sort of thing I wrote creature of DC. I wrote Senate Senate creature Talk vowed other blind spots Sarah weaknesses that Eric has as we all know. It takes a while in every campaign cycle for candidate to become a finished product. You know she's talking about the basic issues issues talking about medical care. She's talking about wages She's talking about bread and butter issues for people. These messages will translate. They will play. They will travel. I think what some people are. Oh saying is that she needs to be able to weave the together in a story that has a slightly higher level rhetoric. Vision the vision and I think you call a vision. Sometimes I call it a campaign the melody you see I mean her. Her factual presentation is indisputable. She's she's very solid midwestern person very appealing but she does need sort of a higher melody I think. More from our deliberations after a quick break to kill a mockingbird is unmissable and unforgettable raves rolling Stone Five Stars The New York Times declared declared it a critic's pick calling Aaron Sorkin new play beautiful elegiac satisfying even exhilarating a mockingbird for our moment. Sixty minutes says it's the most successful American play in Broadway history. A New York magazine calls it a real phenomenon. Ed Harris Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mockingbird directed acted by Bartlett sheer tickets at telecharge dot com. Welcome back the choice and one of the things that I was very impressed with her is that she talks about these issues. In a way that people can relate to their lived experiences so for example on climate change you hear a her talk about the flooding in Iowa or other places in a way where people can really relate immediately the policies that. She's putting on the table to what they themselves have experienced. Yes it's true and you know as the person who travels back and forth quite a bit myself I do see that But it we're just trying to. How how does she will will take for her to break through? It's what I'm thinking. I think what of the other issues that she is. Ben Then played with has been the reporting around the fact that she has the highest senate turnover rate. You know that gives me pause because you want. The next president is to be able to surround themselves with really talented people and if she has that reputation if she doesn't treat her staff well will talented people want to work for her. What do you make of that would well? I have to tell you. Whenever I hear a temperament problem I always subtract some of the complaint from gender through gender? Always take agenda question right off the top of that Because a lot of people who would put up with behavioral for men quite. It's Nice Lee and I think of it as aggressive. hard-driving tend to think of women as shrill they exhibit the same behavior the turnover statistics You know are potentially really troubling. But I remember when we when she was here. We discussed it and she said listen. A lot of my staff goes on. Take my staff go on to great things. I drive them hard. But I choose people who don't stay with me because they go onto greater things And I as a colleague David Leonhardt said. Recently that he reminded as does she reminds him a little bit of Harry. Truman which is also sort of a very blunt guy No nonsense guy. Who turned out to be quite ineffective president? The central case for the senator seems to be and the case. I think she's been making to the country. Entry is that the crisis the political crisis can be met with an adult in the room and some moderation and mid Western view and Sensibility. And listen. I think that's a very it's worth taking seriously. I don't know whether anybody knows if that's actually enough off. If any of these Democrats are elected what they're promising would make them the most progressive president event in American history. I often think of her as the person who might actually be able to get that done because of her effectiveness in passing. Bipartisan Bills Calls in Congress but she does have a little bit of a tendency to name off those bills to talk through the legislation and and make herself seem team a little bit like a DC creature. Do you think that that would go away. As she moved away from Congress. I think of that. This is in the realm of rhetorical problems. I think this it is possible to solve this problem by simply learning to speak week differently. About what you're trying to do as a person who's on the floor Anderson and a three terms a successful three term senator. She is likely to be engaged in the nuts. Awesome Bolts of the Senate itself but even as the campaign on foes she should be able to pull back from that. I'm sure she's getting that input now she should be able to pull back back from that and to take a slightly broader rhetorical scope. I think it's mainly just a rhetorical problem. Thank you so much for doing this friend. Thank you for having me all right. That's it for senator. Come back on Monday to hear the board teach South Bend Mayor People to judge about. Just what the Mayo Pete. The choices produced by ATWILL media. Mitch Flew Stein Volley Socia- Ashley Taylor and Rachel Lightner with help from Michel Mason mixing by Lauren Gardner and original music by Allison Leyton Brown special. Thanks to Tyson Evans from the New York. Times are executive. Executive producers are well Malnati's from will media and Phoebe Latte from the New York Times. Finally we want to hear from you. Please review us on the Apple. PODCAST APP it'll help more voters find in the shower

senator Senate The New York Times Mid West Minnesota Senator Klobuchar president Mr Brent Staples Aaron sorkin Lee editorial board Iowa Senator Cobra Bartlett Sher United States Mitch Flew Stein Senator Kosher Jesse Green Katie Kingsbury Kingsbury Ed Harris
The Argument: Why Endorse Elizabeth Warren and Amy Klobuchar?

The Choice

37:57 min | 6 months ago

The Argument: Why Endorse Elizabeth Warren and Amy Klobuchar?

"The New York Times critic's pick to kill a mockingbird is beautiful elegiac satisfying even exhilarating raves. Jesse Green it's the most successful American play in Broadway early. History says sixty minutes rolling. Stone gives mockingbird five stars calling it a landmark production of an American classic and. NPR says it's one of the greatest plays in history history all rise. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mockingbird a new play by Aaron sorkin directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot com. Hey listeners so we had a lot of questions about the episode of the argument was on so we've decided to share it here in our have a listen. I'm Michelle Goldberg. I'm Rostow third. I'm David Leonhardt. And this is the argument this week. The New York Times editorial board has announced presidential endorsing. We welcome the editor who oversaw the process to try to convince us that the board was right to choose not one but two candidates. If there's any regret that I have is leaving the impression that I couldn't make up my mind and then a recommendation. It actually gave me a kind of deep appreciation for our yawning. Partisan and the Times editorial board usually endorses an establishment candidate for the Democratic nomination. It's endorsed Bill Clinton and Al Gore and John Kerry in two thousand and eight. The board chose Hillary Clinton over Barack Obama and in two thousand sixteen eighteen. It shows Hillary again. This time over Bernie Sanders this year. The board is made the process more public than ever. The candidate interviews were conducted on the record food and published. Some of the deliberations were televised in the end. The board chose to different candidates a progressive Elizabeth Warren and a moderate Amy Klobuchar. That decision definitely got people talking. We're lucky that Katy Kingsbury who oversaw the process will be joining us today to talk about all of that. Katy is the Times as deputy editorial page editor before she comes in. I should make clear that. Ross Michelle and I are not on the editorial board none of the OP. Ed Columnists are and we all feel fortunate to work at a place that celebrates debate and yes argument even among colleagues so before Katie joins joins US Ross and Michelle. What was your initial reaction to the joint endorsement Michelle? Well I was relieved that it wasn't Joe Biden and you know a lot of people. It really hated this online people really angry online and I think there was some initial misinterpretation that they were sort of saying. We'll just vote for a woman either Elizabeth Warren or for Amy Klobuchar will do you know in some ways. The endorsement is kind of my own sinking. Which is vote for Elizabeth Warren? If you think Elizabeth with Warren is to left for you vote for Amy Klobuchar over Joe Biden so there were things in the endorsement that I thought were unfair. I thought some of the digs against Warren or and also really against Bernie Sanders a little unfair but in terms of just advice to voters was it aligned with what I think Ross. What'd you think I I mean I kind kind of hated it since we're since we're being honest? Hopefully I'll still have employment at the Times after this conversation. My first thought was I. Guess Yeah I guess. To pick up from Michelle's she was relieved. They didn't pick Biden is looked at it and said okay. Hey this means Biden is going to win And it reminded me in a way of part part of how the Republican primary process played out in two thousand and sixteen. was that most of the elite factions within the Republican Party hated Donald Trump or dislike donald trump or at the very least uncomfortable with Donald Trump. But they could never unite and figure out which single candidate should you know be the rallying point to actually beat Donald Trump and Joe Biden isn't Donald Trump but he's similar to trump in the only people who seem to like him voters. And don't you you think Bernie Sanders so you think you could say the same Bernie Sanders I mean. I think I can do a riff on how this help sanders to I. I think that there's a world where a sort with anti Biden vote coalesced around Elizabeth Warren. There's a world where it somewhat more improbably coalesce around Amy Klobuchar but having the The Times editorial board sort of a literal manifestation of elite liberalism No offense intended guys Unable to actually really recommend coalescing around a single figure just seemed like a sort of Nice distillation of how Biden's path to the nomination is going to work. What did you think David? I'm not positive about this but I'm getting more secure in the notion that I think Warren would make the best president but I'm not yet persuaded. She would make the best nominee because I really do think there's a chance. She's less electable than some of the other candidates and I think Clova Char has the best electability case and so I completely understand the desire to lift them both up but I also agree felt anti-climactic to not help voters choose between these two and and let's be clear. Many voters aren't in a lane. Gene they are trying to decide between club. CHARN Warren or between Bernie and Biden and so in any event. I'm really looking forward to having Kadian. So we can get get her involved in this conversation. So Katie Kingsbury. Welcome to the argument. Thanks thanks for having me. So let's start with the obvious question which is walk us through why you decided to go with two candidates. So it's it's fascinating the reaction to this. It's news has been a really interesting window into how voters as well as the general public are feeling about this race. It's clear that that people are very frustrated. And you know what went into this knowing people are going to be really frustrated that we didn't choose one. I think people really need that sense. Sense of a path forward of clarity of many of the things that roster said in terms of unifying behind one candidate but increasingly after after having spent hours and hours in the boardroom interviewing each of these candidates it became clear to us that no matter what any of these candidates would be among the most progressive presidents that the United States has ever had. It's how they would actually get that done where the differences really became the most crystallized and that for us became a question of you've Elizabeth Warren. Who has the clearest diagnosis of what ails America's Today and who has such a sense of urgency in her message inch it really matches the moment versus Amy Klobuchar? Who has this bipartisan? Track record of doing a lot of legislation with her Republicans across the the island. Whose message is much more one of unity? And one of the things that I really wanted to do was to reflect the vote of our board and and this was the outcome. That really most reflected the board's vote. Let me ask you one thing about that in particular because some of the discussion Russian has has suggested that the Times was trying to send a single message by endorsing too. But that's not what I saw when I watched the episode of the weekly. That had your deliberations nations to me. This was a divided board and I really saw a what felt like a generational divide in which younger members of the board really wanted a proud out progressive particularly warn and older members of the board. I don't know within the cutoff around. Forty forty five It's not perfect but older members of the board. We're really uncomfortable with that Disagreed with it on the substance worried it was less electable and were much more comfortable with Buddha Jig or Biden oral world. Totally Aclu Machar. Do you think that's fair. I think that's probably an over simplification and I'm kind of curious where you think I fall on that divide Most just curious how old you think I am Well I'm definitely not GonNa Guess Your Age but I will say I thought you were clearly on the more moderate side of that. Divide based on your questions and maybe maybe that's wrong. Maybe that's just what we saw television but but to me you were sort of the leader of the of the moderate group. That's fascinating I am probably amongst the more moderate members of the board I am Generally this personally more conservative I was raised by Republicans And I come from the Midwest asked where in general Some of the messages have not necessarily been resonating That's way over simplification But yes I am. I'm I'm probably amongst the only members of the board who go to church regularly and one of the questions that I asked to. Almost every candidate was how they place themselves in terms of Being where spirituality comes into their leadership style. And how they they they talk about that because I do know that I was in Iowa in November and I remember one of the things I heard from. A lot of voters was a lot of disappointment in the lack of discussion of faith and spirituality among some of the Democratic candidates I also I guess because I'm you know raise. I was raised by two people from about ground state. I I really worried that. Some of the ways that much I feel this more with Warren than sanders but some of the ways that they are talking a to voters and around their ideas might be off putting you know I think but one of the things that came up over and over again in both our conversations with the candidates but also our deliberations this question of electability the reality is is is that two thousand sixteen has taught us that trying to figure out who is going to be the most electable candidate versus. Donald Trump in. November is probably probably a fool's errand so we started looking closer at the policy prescriptions. We started talking a little bit more about the actual messages of the candidates. And and what we realized is that the Party needs to have that conversation amongst itself it. It's really not the role of a to`real board to determine the future of the Democratic Party and that the only vehicle that we really have is people going out and voting to get a sense of what the Democratic voters want the future of the party to look like you know the Times. got a certain amount of twitter grief before this before the endorsement was was announced for sort of doing some. You know some reality TV show sort of fireworks around around the endorsement and so on but generally I thought that whatever was lost in losing a certain amount of behind closed doors. Honesty from politicians was more than gained back from the advantages of putting putting all of these men and women on the record in front of a group of smart questioners over over an extended period of time. I thought the whole thing went really okay well for the times and for readers and it just makes makes it more baffling to me that at the end of the day the message was well. There's a choice choice between a progressive path in a moderate path. And we'RE NOT GONNA make it for you. I mean it just it. It seems to me that that's the essence of what if there's any purpose to an editorial decision that's the purpose to tell readers and voters. This is what we think you should do. This is how the electability and policy we'll see bundle. Works together better with Clo- Char than Warren or better with Warren than closer. But I'm I'm sort of mystified. I think that those of US people external to the times and people internal like ourselves are just left with the impression that you know you guys is deadlocked and the divisions in the party were sort of manifest within the time itself and so the deadlock gave us you know a tie basically and and yeah I I have such a differentiator I take that point I I have such a different way of thinking about well. What the purpose of an endorsement is the man that I mean for me? The endorsement is really supposed to be an exercise in informing readers better about the candidates especially in the state and local level but also in terms of the presidential pick and I I guess I have never thought of it as something that we are supposed to go and tap and back a candidate and you know pull put put our full weight behind them. I I really wanted a to inform readers. Give them a better sense of how we measure these candidates after we spent able to spend a lot of time with them and this really felt to me the most journalistic and intellectually honest results As well as the endorsement that is going to be the most useful for a wider range of voters and I felt I feel really torn. I agree really Ross. With this perception that people think the board was torn because the board was torn. And if there's any regret that I have is leaving the impression that I couldn't make up my mind In some ways kind of transparency currency lessons endorsements potency. Because it no longer has this voice of God Feeling to it right. You sort of see how the sausage is made but but it does increase their utility. Because you can sort of see. All of these candidates being grilled by the same people right I think think Katie was right and talking about it as a journalistic exercise I also agree with Katie. That endorsements are more important for local races. You know I ended up paying a ton of attention to them when it comes to things like you know voting for judges in New York I'm going to be less swayed by the Times decision at the presidential level. But you know there's a lot of people trying to make up their minds and just as often I think when we write an op Ed. It's it's less distortive. Try to convince people than to lay out a way of thinking about something. I think. Endorsements can be very useful in just sort of helping to to clarify people's thinking about the different candidates. Ross I I feel like your criticisms raised some larger interesting questions which is should newspapers Brazilian. Be in the business of endorsing candidates Should they do it differently from the way they did in the past. Is that right well. I think there's an open question last year about the viability and purpose of an editorial page in the age of you know innumerable takes and personalized journalism and the decline of institutional national power and so on And I think what what my sense of what we've tried to do is to reduce the number of editorials that we right with the idea being that when and the Times weighs in on something it should mean more than just you know for editorials a day on sixteen different subjects and I think that's a reasonable approach approach and again. It's why I'm sort of baffled by this outcome. Because if that's the goal to reduce the number of reduce the number of editorials we we do to try and make each editorial more meaningful and more sort of a more important statement of where the time stands. Then you know this is an important moment. We did big build up people are going into the polls in Iowa very shortly and You know we didn't tell them who to vote for. And I I think we should have. Okay we're GONNA vote today's entire show to this conversation but let's take a quick break now and we'll be right back to talk about Joe Biden Bernie Sanders and more to kill a mockingbird is unmissable an unforgettable raves rolling Stone Five Stars The New York Times declared it a critic's pick calling errands Zorkin's new play beautiful elegiac satisfying even an exhilarating a mockingbird for our moment sixty minutes says it's the most successful American play in Broadway history. A New York magazine calls it a real phenomenon on ED. Harris is Atticus finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mockingbird directed by Bartlett cheer tickets at telecharge Dot Com. Welcome back to our conversation with Katie Kingsbury. Deputy editorial page editor here at the Times. This is inside baseball but I am still curious to hear your thoughts about it. which is Did did you ever consider maybe doing two editorials in which say you would write. The full throated endorsement of Klobuchar. A more progressive member would write a full throated endorsement. I Warren. It's interesting that in the end people feel like that for oh it was written more in favor of Closer Than Elizabeth Warren Because I actually feel pretty strongly that they both would be excellent presidents. You know if I had to go into a ballot box today I had to choose between Colbert. Warren I probably I probably would vote for Elizabeth Warren for one she she absolutely is this. Brilliant architect of regulation she understands how to use the regulatory system in ways that are pretty astounding and whoever the next president is. If there's Mitch McConnell is still in the Senate then you are going to have to use regulation to get things done. Can I ask a question about the Joe Biden. I mean it seemed to me. One of the big takeaways was that when everybody voted he didn't even make the top four. Yeah and I'm curious. I mean I was. I think that reflects may own alarm. About what a Biden candidacy would look like but at the same time there was a moment after his interview where everybody said had only are really worried about the Joe Biden that would show up. He was much smarter than We were expecting so. Could you talk a little bit about the board's reservations about Joe Biden right after we had The outbreak of conflict with Iran. I sat down and I wrote an entire fire endorsement of Joe Biden and I think that came from an desire on my part for the comfort of having someone who during his interview spoke folks so fluently about foreign policy. Who's been in the room in some of those more difficult decision? Making who was A really vocal opponent to the war in Afghanistan and sending more troops there And I wrote that out wrote a full draft. I mean literally a two thousand word draft You know talking about why thought Joe Biden is the best Democrat to be president and it felt so oh It didn't match the moment in any way by which I mean as a board that has you know all of its values are under herded by institutions norms. In a lot of ways. I think one of the things that's come through in the last three years is how we call out of those institutions are and how they really need to be reconsidered in in how our economic and political systems should at least be examined as to whether or not they need to be overhauled. And that's it's not Joe Biden's message at all Joe Biden's message simply is let's go back to normal. Whatever normal is right like I mean there are a lot of for a lot of Americans normal wasn't working and I think that there needs to be some recognition that at least four some portion of the American public the government and the economic systems were failing them and I think that is why at least in part Donald trump was elected president and returning to what Biden is offering it just felt like tinkering around the edges when the house is on fire and we need to have a really close examination of what needs to change in this country and I didn't I didn't it doesn't come through when you talk to the former former vice president that he understands that urgency that he gets that people need something different Do you have any regrets about Describing Elizabeth Warren with the phrase gifted storyteller since I'll I'll speak for the Unrepresented Right wing of America in this conversation and note that one of the chief critiques of Elizabeth Warren from the right and not only from the right is that some of some crucial moments in her political career involved telling stories. That were not necessarily true. I think what you're alluding to is some of the way. She presented her native American heritage at the beginning of the campaign. And that's actually one of the political missteps that I am talking about when I say that I'm a little have of some reservations about her political instincts in this campaign. You know just everything about that episode From the fact that she hadn't talked to the tribal leaders liters the fact that she decided she needs to do it at all You know an and then she dug her heels in and doubled down on it. It was so cringe-worthy and I worried about. What would we see in a general election? What if anyone's real question is who can be trump? Then that should give them a lot of hesitation. I mean I didn't love the way she handled that but I I would also remind us all that Ronald Reagan said something ridiculous us about trees and Barack Obama talked about bitter people clinging to their guns and George Bush cursed on an open. Microphone back when politicians didn't do that and and in along presidential presidential campaign. I feel like everyone has a big mess up. I guess I mean I my perception watching I mean I. I sort of assumed that Warren was going to get the boards was going to be the boards pick because my perception is that Warren is the candidate who is preferred by most people in our profession and sort of in the liberal intelligence. A writ large that's been my perception of journalistic coverage to and I. I think that Warren Warren I think she is a gifted storyteller and there've been a bunch of incidents where her storytelling seems to run ahead of the facts and and I think neither are part of the media nor per rivals have really challenged her her attacker on this stuff. But I I actually think that's. It's an area of vulnerability for Warren. That's clearer than it is for Sanders or Kovic are a lot of other candidates. That hasn't really been picked up in The way her campaign has been covered and attacked. So you're getting at probably the biggest reason why I did not want to just outright eight endorses with Warren. One of one of. which is I really worried that my perception of Elizabeth Warren should not be the guiding light? Here you know because I am a member of the media for better or worse we are very privileged and we are part of the elite And I also feel like there hasn't necessarily been the critical coverage I mean I don't WanNa that's the chew putting that too strongly. Do you think that. Of course media's covering Elizabeth Warren strongly but I don't feel like there has been as much critical Coverage of hers. I would have expected expected. I think it's reasonable to point to some things and ask why there hasn't been more coverage I guess I would say though to me. On some of our policies there's been a lot of coverage in it's been really negative. I mean and the number of negative stories about the wealth tax in mainstream publications about how it could reduce economic growth. And cause all these problems. That's an interesting debate. But but it's been very much from the standpoint of essentially the center and The coverage of both Warren and Sanders. I think is he's not overly favorable on their policies. And we don't need to go into a diagnosis of all coverage here. But I don't think it's just a matter of liberal bias. I think there's kind of a mix of liberal bias affluence. It's bias and also centrist bias. Let's I mean it's interesting because Amy Klobuchar has also been subject to very much Scrutiny in apart because she just hasn't risen yet to the top tier you know we would here. I think a lot more about how she treats her staff which I think for a lot of young voters particularly early that you need to excite seems like a deal breaker because or really for anyone who's had an abusive boss Could end up being you know quite a serious serious drawback and then I ask you. Can I interrupt Michelle the coverage of hers a boss. Do you think there is a majestic element to that. No I mean first of all you know. It was notable enough that you know Harry Reid. Talk to her about it right. She had this kind of turnover record and I think anybody in journalism knows that the stories that have been out there are You know even though of course so far. They're just rumors. They're still rumors that would give me pause that there's some some other kind of shoe drop before we go I. I think it's important. Spend a few minutes on Bernie And I I'm no Bernie Bro. But I do sort of WanNa make the case for Bernie Given Katie your own standards for this endorsement and end here. Why he just just wasn't appealing to you? which is you've said that part of the reason Abidin endorsement would have felt so off? Is this moment calls for something. Bigger than let's go back to Barack Obama's number two It calls for someone who Who understands the level of frustration? Out there and Bernie Sanders unders. Clearly does he has been talking about it for decades. His message has been extremely consistent. He does draw support from surprising. Places and so given that Why isn't he potentially a really good option for the Democrats Kratz to nominate to take on Donald Trump and match the kind of passion that trump side has with with a more productive out of passion from the Left? I think actually in terms of For us we've really consider this sort of Sanders versus Warren and we can debate the merits of that. If you want but I think it was his health issues. That really gave me personally pause. I totally get the Hippie of Bernie Sanders I actually think he is I could sit here and make the case for you. that he would be the exact right person to WANNA put up against Donald Trump in particular just because of his stubbornness but I I felt that especially because because when we were talking to him it was in early December he was full of energy and actually very warm himself You can when you're in a room. I'm with him. You can kind of understand why there are so many people who are attracted his candidacy but for one thing. A lot of his positions Sion's are much further to the left than the board precedents or History would Support the other is that but He is he would be. I think seventy nine when he entered office and he had just had a heart attack. He hadn't released his health records when we had this vote. And I think that was one of the major reasons that I felt like Elizabeth with worn if you wanted to progressive candidate was the right person so you know. Obviously I agree with that assessment but the thing I thought was a little bit. Unfair to Bernie was this. Say Dea that. He's you know incapable of compromise. That he's really you know. I think it said three years. Into the trump administration we see little advantage edge to exchanging one over promising divisive figure in Washington for another. You know he actually has compromised a lot right. He's worked with some really surprising people all to get legislation passed John McCain. He's worked with Mike Leeann foreign policy. He's been he's never really been a spoiler when it comes to passing compromise progressive legislation right like the affordable. Care Act. He he basically does sort of go along with the team he most of the time. I think that's pretty fair when he talks about for instance Medicare for all he's like we're getting better care for all you know. He won't even consider a public option. My guess is that when push came to shove and he was presented with the public option. He would sign it but I guess I'm looking for a presidential candidate that that is is wants to kind of go in with the idea that compromises necessary we you know if people disagree with this decision. They should go and read the transcripts of all the candidates interviews all thirty thousand words of each of them and make up their own mind. This was really an exercise in helping people make their own choice. And Yeah and I and I WANNA say since I'm V since I'm playing the role of critic I think all of the material is terrific and interesting and a great service to people trying to make up their minds and I'm just excited for the Times. Endorsement special in twenty twenty four when we endorse both Bernie Sanders Sanders for reelection. And Josh Holly Running Against Him. I think I'm I'm ready. Well I think I. I don't know I'll of curious whether or not we're still doing. Endorsements in two thousand twenty four but I really think that over the next four years we're going to keep having that conversation Katie Eighty Kingsbury. Thank you so much for joining us Now it's time for our weekly recommendation. When we make suggestion that has been to take your mind off of the news of the day? This week is my turn and Ross. I'm going to borrow the technique you used a couple of weeks ago in which I'm going to start off with the story so I Am As you both know a fan of Boston sports teams. I lived in Boston from when I was two to eight. The formative years for sports fans. I'm a Red Sox Fan. I'm a Patriots Detroit Fan. My wife grew up in Houston in a family of baseball fans. In fact she grew up with season tickets to the Houston Astros and is a lifelong astros. Fail and as some listeners may know there is a sort of thread that runs through the three teams. That I have just mentioned the Houston astras the Boston Red Sox and the New England patriots which they have all credibly been accused recently of cheating The Astros and red SOx of using video to steal the opposing team signs. So they know what Pitches coming in and for the Patriots. It's a long list of cheating accusations that they deflate footballs and videotape other teams and do all sorts of things and a- As I have been coping with these revelations in recent weeks and deciding what I think about them. I've basically come up with a kind of an excuse than a defense. It's for all of them. which is yes the Astros were cheating but so do all teams in the Astros? Were just better at it and the excuse for the Patriots is going. Maybe cheating. No I can tell you about the crazy science of how the Patriots didn't really deflate the balls and it was due to weather and as I thought through all these things it it actually gave me a kind of deep appreciation for our yawning partisan divide ride and how we basically end up believing what we want to believe and Nate Cohn. The Times is pulling expert has said aversion. This he he says he he has a better insight into how people feel about politics when he thinks about how he feels about. The Seattle seahawks his favorite football team than anything else. And so I I guess my recommendation is it either. Think about how your own sports loyalties or loyalties and other parts of your life can warp your your views of reality and then try to apply that to politics and Ross. I'm begging you a little bit here. But nothing has given me a better appreciation for how conservatives can think the crazy things they do about climate change then my own views of the Houston Astros and the New England patriots. Well I mean and I think one I think you're right and to there's a guy named Avon Hirsch who has a new book called politics says for power and one of his arguments is that especially for upper middle class educated people in the age of the Internet. It's become a lot easier era to approach politics the way you follow sports like you know this sort of constant online stream of information and he's arguing that this takes people away from the real the work of politics. which is you know showing up at town meetings or you know your local board meetings and or gazing and doing things doing things in the real world maybe the age of Cable News and the Internet has made it easier to approach politics in this sort of fan spirit or hobbyists spirit instead of us sort of citizens spirit? Maybe so I would flip this around because I'm completely insensible to the appeal of sports and so oh I would say maybe thinking about how I think about. Politics could help me understand what people feel about sports and really feel anything about them And then but the other anything I would say is that you know I wrote a column wants kind of trying to imagine how I would react to a Fictional left-wing version of trump. I felt like was steamrolling. All of my enemies And you know the temptation that would be there to sort of swallow your unease and how difficult it might be to break with all of your ideological article allies At the same time I do think that the fundamental difference between Liberals and Conservatives is that David you're kind of having this Self critical conversation with yourself about sort of how you rationalize things away. That shouldn't be rationalized away. And the very fact that you sort of recognize your own partisanship as something to to try to intellectually transcend Is I think something that is much more common on one side of the political divide than the other I. Oh I think we've gotten away from the escape from politics aspect of the recommendations you're totally wrong Michelle and not side any evidence to okay David. What's your recommendation? My recommendation is stop being so hard on the New England Patriots in Houston Astros. That's our show this week. Thank you so much for listening. And if you have thoughts or ideas Lisa voicemail at three four seven nine one five four three two four you can also email us at argument at ny NY TIMES DOT com and if you like what you hear please leave us a rating or review apple podcasts. If you want to listen to the longer interviews that the board did with each candidate subscribed to the choice. podcast this week show is produced by Mattie Foley for Transmitter Media and edited by Sarah Knicks our executive producer correct. We had help from Tyson Evans. phoebe Ian Precise Philbrick and Francis Young of the Kaiser Family Foundation our theme was composed clues by Alison Tweeden. We'll see you back here next week. I mean I agree with you Kadian and for the record. I assume that you are at the same age as I. I am which is a very young looking. Twenty seven exactly.

Elizabeth Warren the Times Joe Biden Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Donald Trump Amy Klobuchar Ross Michelle Joe Biden Ross Biden David Leonhardt Barack Obama Katie editorial board New England patriots The New York Times United States Iowa Michelle Goldberg editor
Joe Biden: The Deliberation

The Choice

20:47 min | 6 months ago

Joe Biden: The Deliberation

"The New York Times critic's pick to kill a mockingbird is beautiful elegiac satisfying even exhilarating raves. Jesse Green it's the most successful American American play in Broadway history sixty minutes rolling stone gives mockingbird five stars calling it a landmark production of an American classic and. NPR says. It's one the greatest plays in history. All Rise Ed Harris Is Atticus finch in Harper Lee's Tequila mockingbird a new play by Aaron sorkin directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge urged dot com. Welcome back to the choice from the New York Times opinion section. I'm Katie Kingsbury in our last episode. You heard the board Lord interview former Vice President. Joe Biden's in this episode. You'll hear what we had to say. After Mr by the left the boardroom. If you haven't heard the interview go back and listen to that first joining me today to talk about Mr Biden's visit and reproductive. Healthcare Gender in the twenty twenty election is board member Lauren Kelly. I'm Lorraine Kelly I cover women in reproductive rates for the the editorial board. I listen to the reaction after the vitamin interview. I was looking for the candidate. That's been sort of trade in the media's like you know now author not with it or lost a considerable amount or sort of discombobulated or something but he didn't strike angry really comforted by the Joe Biden that showed up. There was pretty much on his game. I thought he was on. He didn't wander he didn't ramble wasn't like he's he's all their yeah works. It was the second half when he started talking about foreign policy particularly he. He's head and shoulders above the rest on foreign policy. Absolutely agree with them or not. I the he's he's you know. He's an incredibly impressive skill. compassionate You know talented retail tale politician and you can understand why he has had such staying power. I guess the question is just whether and this it goes to what we didn't really get to but is it enough for the moment. Is it enough politically. Is it enough to save the middle class. Does he understand he understands. I think that the political and moral crisis but does he does he really understand kind of the world that so many any of us are living in I think the the what we didn't we didn't get to kind of follow up on on the millennial issue do but I mean. Does he understand the anger. One thing I was would have liked to follow up. He said at the beginning you know he's taken more incoming incoming fire in this campaign than anybody. He hasn't seen the beginning of it. He's got a fifty year record and wait till he goes up against trump and three hundred million dollars of Republican up a research. I think both of the questions I asked him his answers. Were frankly nonsense on both of them. His hide answer makes no sense at all. I believe him I think he. He accused us of ageism. And say like you know. Yeah I mean it just I mean I absolutely Louis have profound concerns about seventy seven. No no I absolutely think it's right to be very concerned about someone who's pushing eighty two years old running the largest country in the world the most powerful country agent whatever. You know what I'm saying. I'm concern about Bernie Sanders. I'm concerned I'm not. But what's the big deal baby. Nobody is fair to raised. These seventy seven seventy eight year olds are the healthiest most most fit most cognitively seventy seven seventy eight year olds with ever lived on the planet planet. My father is about to turn eighty. He's an he's got all his faculties with him. I would never want my father to run the country. And he's he looked tie yes he looked better than and then like a old man but he he looked he looked tired. He looked like someone and this is nothing compared to running the free world. Like it's just. I'm really concerned concern that the Democrats are putting their chips in the basket of of nearly eight year olds can be Joe Biden. I'm not right right. That's that's that's your pitch. This is the Party of the future and your pitches. I'm not GonNa die like you know. I thought the more he talked to better. I mean his this handicap and the debates was the thirty minute bite here when he could tell his long story. Which I presume you can do better right? There was a little of that like when you bring up the Obama Administration whenever you get when you get in a corner not the president and the other parts of it where it's like. Well look what we did. He wanted to play. I had presidential power. I'm not the president in politicians the pilot. Thanks for joining us. Sure so before we get into the interview with. Can you lay out for us. The current status of reproductive productive rights in the United States. And help us understand what's at stake in this election. Yeah this is precarious moment for reproductive rates. it's probably the most precarious moment since Roe anyway was decided in nineteen seventy-three You know over the years rose been chipped away. I there's been a whole heap of antiabortion bills around around the country and then that's been happening. There's been this pipeline of conservative judges who are hostile to abortion who have been sort of fostered by antiabortion advocates so when trump won the election then when Anthony Kennedy announced his retirement of course he had been kind of swing justice on the Supreme Court. it sort of became clear that those conservatives were really going to finally trying to accomplish their goal which is of course ending legal abortion access in America how has reproductive rights. Come into play in the twenty twenty race so far yes oh so far. Trump has really tried to set the terms of this debate. AM He keeps using rhetoric talking about infanticide conflicting abortion with murdering babies He especially says this when the topic of later abortions comes up you know of course later abortions have been rarely They generally happen when something has gone. Terribly terribly and tragically wrong and a pregnancy But he has really tried to who back Democrats into a corner to having to answer for again. What he he calls infanticide? Incorrectly Biden has some baggage around reproductive rights. What were your concerns going into this interview rate so probably his biggest baggage relates to the Hyde amendment? How do we focus on high? I can explain high place you first of all. Everybody voted for high. Every single person running it but they all this idea. This is such a principle thing. Well it's principled. I mean most of the party has been in favor of overturning. I yeah I understand that. I understand the question directly. I thought that when there were reasonable alternatives and funding mechanisms that did not deny women the opportunity to take advantage of their constitutional right under Roe. V Wade is amended by casing that in fact it was. Okay you and the vice president kind of get into it over the head amendment. Can you explain what that is in a nutshell. The Hyde Amendment is a federal statute that dates back to nineteen seventy six. And it says that Federal Medicaid dollars cannot be used to pay for abortions except in a few narrow circumstances and of of course who relies on Medicaid poor women so that explains why in America today it is so much harder for a woman without resources or without insurance coverage through work to get an abortion whereas a woman who has more resources. It's much easier for her to get the exact same procedure again. It's been around since one thousand nine hundred seventy six. Basically almost immediately after Roe v Wade was decided. And you know of course that made abortion legal across the country then the Hyde amendment came along long just a few years later and made abortion inaccessible to millions of those women so really stifles the effect of Roe v Wade Henry Hyde. Reid was a Republican Congressman from Illinois And he really made clear what this was about on Hausler during debate at the time he said quote quote. I would certainly like to prevent if I could legally anybody from having an abortion a rich woman a middle class woman or a poor woman unfortunately fortunately he said the only vehicle available is the Medicaid bill so basically poor woman it was And that's what we have today. An actually almost every congress person ends up voting in favor of the Hyde amendment because it is part of a budget bill but vice president biden has been then vocal in his support of the Hyde amendment in the past correct. That's right so it's really hard to get rid of the Hyde amendment because it is in that federal spending bill will And you know it's really unappealing situation to be faced with either going to bat to fight the Hyde Amendment or You know if you do that you're going to face a government shutdown So there's always so much to sort of bicker about in the federal spending bill and sort of every year that this comes up. It's it's a problem for Democrats and they just have not been able to figure out how to strip hide from the spending bill but your rate Joe Biden had long supported the Hyde Amendment Matt. And you know it's interesting. He really evolved over the years on reproductive rights by the point that he jumped into the twenty twenty race. I think you could pretty safely say that he was it's pretty pro-choice like he was supporting most of the pro choice. Policies that the other Democrats in the race were supporting hoarding. However the Hyde Amendment was the one big exception to that He still supported hide. That was up until this sort of fateful incident. Last summer you're I think it's probably faded from a lot of people's memories but there is a sort of crazy couple of days where Joe Biden was in an event in South Carolina and and this woman walked up to him and she was a volunteer with the ACLU. And she says Mr Vice President. Would you commit to abolishing the Hyde amendment. And he's you can see video of this exchange online. He's looking her right in the eye. He says clear as day. Yes saying yes he would into the Hyde Amendment and so that was pretty stunning and of course immediately the headlines everywhere like wow Joe Biden. He's changed his position on hide. That's incredible but as soon as his campaign saw those headlines. They slammed on the brakes. And they're like wait. No just kidding. He still supports the Hyde amendment so there was sort of caught off guard there. I'm by by that point. There was really no going back. I mean he just looked so out of step with the rest of the party hardy and there was so much pressure on him and so pretty quickly he sort of looked around at the race and he said okay you know yes. If I'm elected president I will fight fight to get rid of hide but you can kind of see how. It's hard to feel like he's completely committed to that since he sort of stumbled into that position. So I think there's a lot of questions for voters about how committed he really is and we should add the context that the vice president has been In favor of the Heideman due to his Catholic faith in that account that has also led him to this evolution that you're describing around reproductive rights. You know I think he. He has grappled with this personally a lot because of his faith and you know he might not be in favor of abortion personally like he might not. Yeah so many Catholics at lutely Americans really probably slightly But he you know again except for the Hyde amendment. He had pretty much. Come around on most pro-choice issues. What did you think of his answers to you during the interview right so on hide in particular his answer wasn't great? It was pretty confusing was us. He's going to do very confused about you. Know what the effect of hide was. He does seem confused about and it's interesting because he's talked about this and other venues news. This wasn't the first time. But basically he's been making the case that as president part of his platform is to expand Medicare and Medicaid access. Right and his argument is okay. Well because so many more people are going to be getting Medicaid. That's why the Hyde Amendment would no longer work because so many women wouldn't be able to get insurance coverage coverage for an abortion Through those plans under hide but the thing is that argument doesn't make a lot of sense because of course it's already the case there are millions of women around the country who can't get abortion access through Medicaid so. It's a little hard to understand. Why that policy he would have been okay up until last summer Right but then it would become untenable. He seemed to be arguing. That in the past there are these other places that women particularly poor women could go in order to get abortion access. Places like planned parenthood but but under the trump administration many of those places have struggled with funding and that now that those places are going away it's more and more important that Medicaid exist As one way one means of paying for abortion access it was very confused. I agree with you and I I felt that He was tying himself in knots To explain more from our deliberations after a quick break to kill a mocking bird is unmissable and unforgettable. Raves Rolling Stone Five Stars The New York Times declared it a critic's pick calling Aaron Sorkin new play beautiful elegiac satisfying satisfying even exhilarating A.. MOCKINGBIRD for our moment sixty minutes says it's the most successful American play in Broadway history. A New York magazine calls. Is it a real phenomenon. Ed Harris Atticus Finch in Harper Lee's to kill a mockingbird directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot com Welcome back to Detroit for too long I would like to I would like to reinforcement Alexander. my my expectations for him were profoundly shape but the news coverage which seems to have many many valleys in rhetorical glitches. That didn't show up here. I mean he seemed to be an he did seem to get Campaigning his heart. But he just seem we get sort of sort of stronger more more emotional as he went on even if he blew off some questions like lar. It's not just the news coverage we've all seen on the debate stage state struggling to answer questions and fading as the debate goes on and we've seen it more than once. So I'm I agree. As performance. Today was very impressive. Does it completely set aside. My concerns earns about his ability to run a strong race. No I guess. Piracy was not unimpressive by. I don't know if I'd call it imprecise. Still he put aside my worst concerns about him and he spoke fluidly for was not not as bad and I agree. I think there's a there might be a little grading on a curve here. Her expectations were outside of his reproductive. Healthcare answers. What were your impressions of Vice President? Biden's interview with US any other surprises. Yeah I mean look. I'm being a a little tough on the vice president here on this issue But you know I did understand after that meeting why a lot of voters do connect with him you know he. He can be a very charismatic guy. He has a pretty amazing history and resume and all of that came through and our meeting. You know on the other hand I think we also saw that he can be a bit rambling He has his famous Joe Biden verbal tics. which which can be sort of charming but also frustrating yeah? I was particularly impressed with his answers on foreign policy. There were not a lot of candidates who articulated the sense of. They've been in the room that they've had to make decisions like that in the past that they understood understood what the stakes were and that they knew how to act quickly He also talked a little bit about the need to surround himself with good people which is is something that other candidates didn't really address? But I agree with you. I felt Ike. A lot of his answers were pretty rambling There it's it's amazing to read the transcript because in entertaining those transcripts. We found ourselves having to explain that the vice president was being a little sloppy be in his speech and in the room. You knew exactly what he was talking about. But as you read the transcript. There's often places where you have. No idea what he's actually referring to. Yeah I agree with all Alabama. I found interesting just on the priority levels and maybe I'm wrong about this but isn't he only one who's really said. This is all about beating trump. Uh this is about getting excising this guy from our politics and our Harris. That was one of our brains as well struck out will right. I'm just talking about in our interviews that he's not even he's not even getting filibuster right defeating trump because I jang four more years. We'll be a disaster right. He's the only one who made it the centerpiece of his his which is not talking about come on directly the vice president has really focused on beating Donald Trump as the center selling point for his his campaign. Why aren't you satisfied with message shore so I just happen to think that beating trump isn't enough? Trump trump is a symptom of a bigger issue. That I think has been happening in the Republican Party for a long time and Personally suddenly as a voter when I look at the slate of candidates I want something to vote for such an uninspiring argument. Just in general the lake. There's this there's this moment comment. That feels very urgent and necessary. And it's just like let's just like you know. Put a warm body that a lot of people can agree on their like surround around him with people. I it's just I don't know it just I just. We had a lot of people. Come in that chair with really interesting ideas and here actually like a lot of ideas and so if you are running on this I don't know there's something to me as somebody who like has a lot of strong with you seen so far. I think we can talk about that tomorrow I think so. That concludes our candidate interviews. You may have noticed be included a full transcript of the interview with Senator Senator Cory Booker on the New York Times website. Mr Booker dropped out of the race weeks. Before his episode was slated to air in the name of transparency. We wanted to share the transcripts of that interview. Are you for those interested in what Mr Booker had to say. We may be done with the candidates. But there's still a lot more to talk about tune in tomorrow to hear the board's final deliberations members battle it Out on behalf of their favorite candidates. You'll also hear our official choice for the twenty twenty Democratic primary. Thanks for listening the choices produced by ATWILL media. Mitch Bluestone Molly Socia- Ashley Taylor and Rachel Lightner with help from Michel Mason mixing by Lauren Gardner and original music. Allison Leyton Brown special. Thanks to Tyson Evans from the New York. Times are executive producers. Answers are well Malnati's from Ashville media and Phoebe Latte from the New York Times. Finally we wanna hear from you please. Rate and review us on the apple podcast APP. It'll help more voters find the show

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Pete Buttigieg: The Deliberation

The Choice

15:44 min | 6 months ago

Pete Buttigieg: The Deliberation

"The New York Times critic's pick to kill a mockingbird is beautiful elegiac satisfying even exhilarating raves. Jesse Green it's the most successful American play in Broadway early. History says sixty minutes rolling. Stone gives mockingbird five stars calling it a landmark production of an American classic and. NPR says it's one of the greatest plays in history history all rise. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mockingbird a new play by Aaron sorkin directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot com. Welcome back to the choice from the New York Times opinion section. I'm Katie Kingsbury and I oversee the editorial board last last episode. You heard the board question in South Bend Mayor Pete footage on his time as a management consultant in this episode. You'll hear what we had to say after the mayor's his it if you haven't haven't heard the interview go back and listen to that first joining me today to talk about the mayor's visit proposed changes to the Supreme Court is our justice and legal affairs writer. Jesse Wakeman. I'm I'm Jessie Wiegmann. And I write about the Supreme Court and voting rights and legal issues and democracy reform generally before we turn to the bench. Let's listen to what the board had to say about Mayor Pete's visit. He struck me as the I mean he is a McKinsey Guy. Like that's the sort of briefing you looked at the spreadsheet but it's also the same kind kind of briefing that you would get from a junior intelligence officers looking at the war in Afghanistan and giving you all the metrics to convince you that the winning is possible. And that's what kind of scared me a little bit about. That is because because I've seen intelligence guys like that give briefing and say you know Helmand province is under control because of Xyz Xyz. I've seen the spreadsheets. What's fascinating to me about as Mackenzie experiences? This is like. They gave him a three year tour of all the things that are going wrong like they took him to the monopoly. They took him to the cost cutting health insurer. They took him to have Ghanistan make forty years. So you've got US tour of neoliberalism. He really didn't he comes out of it and he sort of says like I think neoliberalism needs to change and I believe that he understands the problem. But I'm I'm not sure he gets it and a politician. Success is a politician. Requires you to requires you to convince voters that you feel their problems and I do not get the sense. Maybe it's because I'm not from the Midwest but he did not give me the sense that he feels these problems. This board holds pretty much the same positions he does. I mean almost truth a platform. So it's kind of funny that there's this idea that he is in bold enough because it's important we aren't the fight languages about the Mayo. Peak eat thing and the the social media is about like a real generational anger in response to very large forces to financial shaw crisis to student debt to climate. Change to all these things that are very very real and though they may represent themselves on the Internet get in an annoying way to somebody like that. I just think this idea that like. It's not quite as civility message. But I think he has like this this world view of good faith from institutions that Americans see as almost primarily responding in bad faith all the time and then I think ties into question at the beginning about old normal in normal and here he is trying to distinguish himself from the old normal. But what he's talking about really is a return to something that just doesn't exist anymore. Yeah I mean even his tone when he said that the difference really is tone. I think that's not what people want right now. And not even just young people like people who are have been disenfranchised for the longest time and I think to me. That's kind of like walking into this. My Pain of him was like me. And it's kind of like I don't feel excited. Aided by him so jessie. What's your impression of mayor? Pete came as advertised. They thought that he has been identified by many people as a kind of Obama for twenty twenty and A lot of Obama's former staffers have either climbed on board or have have come out in support of him and he certainly has the former president's political instincts in some regards and in others he just seemed to be lacking he doesn't have that energy around him that Obama did or even at someone like better for a little while and I was. I was struggling to figure out. What the disconnect disconnect was there? Because he's clearly a bright and thoughtful person his political experiences wanting. But so is Barack Obama's at this point do you think that could have anything to do. With the fact he's from the Mid West and his affect is very mid western. I just don't think that that's a significant element in this. I mean you know Barack Obama was from Illinois. Bill Clinton was from Arkansas. I I think the issues run deeper than being midwestern I think it comes from Something about his temperament. This is relative youth. Give you pause. It gives me some pause but No more than possibly even less than The older candidates age does so I think this is an interesting situation. We could have the oldest as president in history or the youngest president history from the same group of candidates and There are pros and cons to both but That's not the most concerning thing for me about him. More from our deliberations after a quick break to kill a mockingbird is unmissable unforgettable raves rolling Stone Five Stars The New York Times declared it a critic's pick calling Aaron Sorkin new play beautiful full elegiac satisfying even exhilarating A.. MOCKINGBIRD for our moment sixty minutes says it's the most successful American play in Broadway history. A New York magazine calls it a real phenomenon. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mockingbird directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot com. Welcome back to the choice. Federal which are and people to judge. Don't come to me is less passionate. Just come off the more midwestern. Maybe that's just disconnect there is a mid western mode of expression is sort of modest oddest and it's and it's presentations and ns even but like ninety. Nine percent of the population fits on the emotional register between Bernie Sanders and people to judge. He told a bit about his pitch to add more justices to the Supreme Court. Can you walk us through his plan. A little bit sure. So the Supreme Court has been a very powerful motivator for voters on the right for years. Now you know mostly around issues like Roe. V Wade need But on a lot of hot button cultural issues as well and it just hasn't broken through in the same way for democratic and more liberal voters and I find that astonishing especially after what we saw happening in two thousand sixteen with the you know Mitch. McConnell blocking even a hearing Merrick Garland of Barack Obama's pick you know so now now I think we are seeing more democratic interest in the court in a more of an understanding. But it's still. I'm not sure that's going to be enough to drive people to the polls the way it did For Conservatives in two thousand sixteen you know. I'm I'm convinced that it's the makeup of the Supreme Court that what matters and that's why I wanted to press all of the candidates on this question that we asked to whom they would nominate if they were elected and I thought Pete Buddha judge of all the candidates had the most well-developed ideas he is about how to address that reality and I liked his idea of Expanding the size of the court the idea in in short is the court it would go from nine members up to fifteen five of those members would be appointed by democratic presidents five by Republican presidents. And the last five would be unanimous picks of those first ten And they would serve one year terms I'm sure the details of this could be hashed out. I'm sure there would be legal challenges to constitutional challenges to it but I liked the the way that Mayor Pete was coming at a sort of really big structural institutional problem where we're facing a dysfunctional court And a court that I think in many people's eyes has become hopelessly politicized and trying to find a way out of it quite change scientists before it has. There's nothing in the constitution. That that prescribes this the number of justices that have to sit on the court It's been as high as ten. It's been as low as five six seven. It hasn't changed from nine since the middle of the nineteenth century but as I think Pete rightly pointed out and as he said on the campaign trail conservatives who who carp about this idea of what they call court packing themselves you know they changed the size of the court just four years ago to eight members In order to hold it until until they could establish a hard right majority on it so I don't think they have any standing to complain about bigger picture ideas of changing the number of justices. I'm also not convinced Vince. That nine is some Sacred number that we need to stick to you know. This is a moment in our history that calls for a major rethinking of a lot of accepted elements of our democracy. And I think this is one of them when FDR pushed the idea of expanding the court back in the nineteen thirties. There was a lot of political pushback. Can you tell us about that. For starters orders. I think we should just remember that. There's a lot of dispute over whether what happened when FDR proposed his plan to expand the size of the court or more more accurately to to add a certain number of justice for all justices. who were older than I think? Seventy at the time. Whether that proposal is what triggered the courts shift into becoming coming more receptive to new deal legislation or whether it was other things happening so I I don't WanNa get too speculative about what a change in the size of the court might do you. I think what we really need to pay attention to and what I think Pete's plan A couple of the other candidates over the last few months have also expressed interest and and would hope to achieve is d politicizing. The court right so we have a court right now where everyone thinks these justices are either Republicans or Democrats crats and well. I don't think they necessarily map so easily onto those political labels. They certainly have ideologies that very nicely fit with Republican or Democratic Credit ministrations. And Right now. For the first time in decades we have a court where all of the conservative justices have been appointed by Republicans and all the liberal justices appointed by Democrats. So anything that can be done to change that situation I think is a is beneficial and I think peace plan is as good as any that. I've heard to try right do that. Also though any Democratic president is going to need to bring along the American public and especially liberals to understand the importance of accord that isn't hopelessly in the tank for the right wing so I just think any Democrat who becomes president is going to have to face this reality party and is going to have to figure out how they deal with an intransigent right-wing Supreme Court and if that means convincing a majority of Americans it's to elect Democratic Senate and to elect Democratic Presidents who will then appoint to the court more liberal justices. That's one route If it's trying to de politicize the court overall by expanding the number and the nature of the justices. That's another way but they can't pretend that it's not a central issue to their governance governance. He is sort of calibrating everything he says to speak to that sort of more centrist middle of the road middle of America voter and to what degree is he just so emotionally level that we can't Actually emoting much is just not his character and so like the words themselves. Maybe sort of appealing to that middle. America voted he sees but can he ever sort of inspire people and it's not just just a question of affect there's also the modesty of his ambitions he has for example argued that we should prevent homelessness for families with children while many opponents have gone further and said we should end homelessness. So he is choosing quite consciously on a whole range of issues to stop well short of where the party is. Frontier is and the question is why basically you and I have often talked about in the past your disappointment in the fact that President Obama and other Democrats have not thought about age as they've picked the members of the court that they appoint I mean. I'm Ki. Tell us why that's so important. Well sure I mean it's in a in a lifetime appointment scenario which is what we have right now and I just WanNa be clear Term Limits for justices would almost certainly require a constitutional amendment so that is not a a small lift. It's actually would be easier to expand the size of the court then to change that rule. But Yeah I mean when you're putting people on the court right now you know President Clinton's appointments to the Court Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Stephen Brier are older than people who are appointed before him. You Know Clarence Thomas so it just stands to reason that if you if you believe in somebody's jurisprudence and you think they are a good justice says you want them to serve on that court for as long as possible and and we'll their influence on the court for as long as possible and if justices are only getting say fifteen twenty twenty-five years on the court instead that if thirty or thirty five that can be all the difference. Justice Kennedy spent I think three decades on the court and some of the most important and consequential decisions he made were in the last couple years of his tenure on your so Jesse. Why did you ask each candidate who they wanted to have on their supreme court shortlist? Look it's a sort of a layup in one sense right but I also knew that almost nobody was gonna answer it and as it turned out nobody did But I wasn't really going for name so much is trying to get a sense of what kind of person the candidates might choose and also so how they understood the importance of the court in our larger system of government. I will say though. I don't get why they wouldn't name names. It's not hard to come up with several dozen really high quality. SMART Young candidates out there who are women who are people of Color who I think would actually excite excite liberals to get to the polls in the way that Donald Trump's list excited conservatives back in two thousand sixteen. I brought this point up to pete and to all of the other candidates. Can you give us some names of people you consider nominating to the Supreme Court so again. I think it's irresponsible for me to name check folks for the future. Donald Trump did it and he is not my role model on things but it helped him. I'm sure did lots of things. He did helped him that I will not be emulating at some point. You got to understand that. The Supreme Court matters and that you have to get that idea across to the public in a way that excites them and not just some abstract concept you know Roe v Wade is on on the line here. Are you going to pick somebody who saves it or not okay. That's it for mayor. Peace come back tomorrow here. The Board interview former Massachusetts Governor Deval. Patrick thanks for listening the choices produced by ATWILL media. Mitch Bluestone Molly Socia- Ashley Taylor and Rachel Lightner with help from Michel Mason mixing by Lauren Gardner and original music by Allison Leyton Brown special. Thanks to Tyson Evans from the New York. Times are executive producers are Willnot from media and Phoebe let from the New York Times. Finally we want to hear from meal please rate and review us on the apple podcast APP. It'll help more voters find the show.

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Not Our Choice to Make

The Choice

29:28 min | 6 months ago

Not Our Choice to Make

"The New York Times critic's pick to kill a mockingbird is beautiful elegiac satisfying even exhilarating raves. Jesse Green it's the most successful American play in Broadway. History says sixty minutes rolling. Stone gives mockingbird five stars calling it a landmark production of an American classic and. NPR says. It's one one of the greatest plays in history all rise. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's Tequila mockingbird a new play by Aaron sorkin directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge urge dot com from the New York Times editorial board I'm Katie Kingsbury and welcome to the choice. The podcast that brings you inside the deliberations process for endorsing and at twenty two thousand presidential candidate over the past few weeks. You've heard US interview eight Democratic candidates as they race towards the primary. You've also gotten a peek into the discussions that happened. Immediately after candidates left the boardroom. Long interviews intense debate all culminate in our final decision for the endorsement. After the last Kennedy left better Tori awards set down a group and went through each candidate and argued for or against and held them up side by side. I WANNA use this time to assess ask the pros and cons of each of the candidates And then to talk a little bit more about the criteria that we're going to use in terms of trying to choose who we will endorse but let's let's just dive in. I think you know the case for Biden boils down to a couple of things the first is making the case and I think with some credibility that he is the best position candidate to beat Donald Trump and that is obviously a central issue in this election. A second point about Biden as I think that his Experience in foreign policy really sets him apart from the rest of the field. Thomas Dyer he certainly has a lot of strong feelings and he has a lot of money. That's how he got in this room. I'm and that's how he got on the debate stage. And that's I you know that makes me pretty uncomfortable But he certainly was right about a lot of his diagnoses of of the fundamental problems. But has I think been your pointed out to him and he had no good Response to is that he really embodies a lot of the fundamental problems of of of income inequality and particularly as this country has gotten there and I think he's done pretty remarkable work in California and I asked him During the interview why not Run for the Senate or for governor at least try to get some experience in government before you run for the highest office in the Land Mayor Bloomberg who obviously decided not ought to participate in the endorsement process would not come to interview his argument being that he didn't have enough to say yet. That had only put out three or four physician papers. I I tried to make the case pretty persuasively that this was an editorial board that perhaps knew him the best out of any group of opinion journalists in the country and that we would have plenty to discuss thus with him With regards to his record in New York and he decided instead to To not participate not to answer the tough questions we wanted to put him. He In many ways I think is a great American in the sense that he has really reshaped a lot of just everyday life in ways. We don't even think about just like his public health initiatives around smoking in bars and restaurants. He's actually quite liberal on many issues including guns and I think his work on that is. It's really to be applauded turning to mayor. Peed bridget which he checks a couple of the same basic boxes as Biden or possibly closure. He is comfortable talking about faith in a way that few of the candidates are combined with his military background. This gives him a little more depth. He's got some big ideas. His plans for the Supreme Court are obviously something that would take a lot of effort. It would be a heavy lift. But he's not afraid of the big ideas senator enclosure. I was really really surprised by how much I liked her She does have ambitions like he keeps saying the public option is an ambition but she's also put out one hundred billion dollar plan to tackle addiction addiction mental illness. That's the depths of despair. Question that we keep talking about like we're the only high income country in the world that has a declining life expectancy and no one's really talked about that and she has so she simultaneously put out a plan for a public option and also said. Here's another way that we're GONNA come out the health issues that are facing the country and to me. That was really appealing. Governor Governor Deval. Patrick I think he's a deeply honorable and reasonable man in an age of politics that's full of unreason and a lot of dishonor and I think you know. Oh He's a great governor of Massachusetts and he definitely sort of has the best interests of the nation at heart but just hasn't sort of done the work to get up to speed in a campaign. Where if if the most important thing is beating Donald Trump he's polling zero and his campaign website is on the third page of search results Yang Yang Gang? Part of what he has going for him is that that he's very self aware and knows that like he's coming into this with not really any experience and he talked about how he would definitely definitely want someone with more experience as BP. I also appreciate that. He seems to understanding away. That like style didn't seem to and even the fuel the other cancer didn't seem to of what like the average American needs and wants right now and I agree with that you should. I really appreciated that. He set priorities and said this is why. Oh you can't tackle climate change I because I think that's something that we struggled to get any of the candidates to do whenever we ask them about that. The question you were asking them was like that's going to be their priority and then in the next breath they I would say. Oh no that's going to be their priority and I really appreciated that. He said like articulated in one sentence why you wouldn't go after climate change. I like nobody else can do that. Moving onto senator sanders so for Sanders. The answers were higher. Minimum wage stronger unions breaking up and regulating banks again. Fighting corporate concentration concentration creating a healthcare system like they had in countries around the world providing free public education and taking drastic action on climate change and finally. I think we talked about foreign policy. I think the world would probably be better off. He'd been running foreign policy for the last thirty years or so. Should we talk about senator warn warn. She's a fighter in particular for you know the people who need to fighting for the most moral compass I think is pointed in the right direction. She absolutely oozes incompetence she's very very smart. She's done things she was responsible for the PB which is a really big deal. Among among among other things she understand government she understands regulation. I think this is a really good moment to stop and pause for a second and just have a longer conversation tation around what we should be thinking about as we continue the conversation in terms of what we want you to my mind. We entered this process with five points that we had laid out to consider one of which is can this person win the Democratic nomination and beat Donald Trump who's platform and record or the most consistent stint with the boards values who can be the most effective president in today's polarized political climate whose temperament and character are best suited to the demands of the presidency residency and who will help us recover the most swiftly from the trauma of the trump era and I think those five points actually color a lot of the conversations that we've had Already already and so I just wanted to remind us so that we can make sure where we're taking those into consideration. Does that list seemed good. Is there anything we should be adding to it anything that we were missing there. I do look at the sort of the depth of the moment. I've said this in probably every one of those like what did you think meetings but it just if it feels like. There's there's something to harness and it feels like it's very easy for these discussions to get routed around this this notion of well. This is how people are and we just have to like. We have to kind of whittled away a president out of all of these different poll numbers until we have this person because the stakes are so high. What I'm hearing out there is that this may be the most important endorsement? The Times will make in the long time simply because so many people are confused. What's gone wrong? What's gone off the tracks? What are we? What's our democracy where we headed in? So they're looking very much not only for who we endorse. But how we we explain it. What are the criteria we look? I think a big part of that criteria his restoring something. That's been lost looking for somebody who's going to sort of bring back indecency bring back by bipartisanship so I think looking a little bit backwards may not be the worst thing that restoration for me is not enough. It's not enough. Because because there is a huge portion of the population who have never had the things that they want and so simply restoring the status quo ante doesn't get us where we need to be as as a society. If you told me that that was all I could have that the only option year is you know that Joe Biden can beat Donald Trump. No one else can. And he's the restoration EST and that's all we get. Yeah I mean I would sign up for that deal. Of course I would but I'm not ready to dismiss the possibility that there is a candidate who's capable of delivering a version of Restoration Association and also has the imagination to go beyond it. And and that for me Is what some of these other candidates at least potentially offer Biden was good and he. Didn't you know falter. He He. He was everything you'd expect Joe Biden to be at the end of the day. It just doesn't feel like enough to me. Heart of how we got to moment amount of trump was like the income inequality that is underlying this and you know the left has one reaction to it. The right has another people in between are kind of going back and forth but so oh I agree I mean I think unless you address the underlying condition of the middle class and the newly diverse electorate and country that we have this is not some Sita's an opportunity community right and not just like the kitchens on fire put out lake kitchen remodel the kitchen and also just to the extent that would biden's argument is is electability. I mean this is an obvious point but the use of that term and its connection to reality is very Less than desired. I think you know if you look back at the last roughly half century as we were talking about who are the WHO are. The Democratic candidates have the White House on outsider from Arkansas. And and the and the guy you know this this guy the Middle Name Hussein than you know the first Georgia in Georgia right and Joe Biden. Meanwhile is the inheritor of the establishment. Lane right he is the inheritor of who Al Gore John Kerry Hillary Clinton who bombed twice you know I mean the people who we think of as traditionally electable keep losing and the people we think of as complete longshots keep winning. I don't see why that doesn't inform our discussions of electability. More more from our deliberations after a quick break and to kill a mockingbird is unmissable and unforgettable raves rolling Stone Five Stars The New York Times declared it a critics pick calling Aaron sorkin new play beautiful elegiac satisfying even exhilarating a mockingbird for our moment sixty minutes says it's the most most successful American play in Broadway history. A New York magazine calls it a real phenomenon. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mockingbird directed by Bartlett Bartlett Cheer tickets at telecharge Dot Com. Welcome back to the choice. Michelle gives the read on Collect Clovis versus Warren versus mayor. Pete what are the political realities. Here we got to think about Pete does not seem to be able to get any attraction non white voters yet but again. It's really early. What worries me most about closure is that she is a little bit entrenched in the Senate to the degree that she might have she'd have to overcome certain senatorial tendencies on the trail? I'm not that worried about her abusing her staff bar. You talked about like one of your top priorities being saving the middle class. And you feel like Warren is really the candidate to do that and I don't disagree with that but the thing I can't get my head around is like the way. She's trying to save the middle class in the Paul all. She's pitching a lot of people in the middle class. Don't support and she hasn't seemed to like wrap her head around that or can contend with that in any meaningful way. Like what happens when the people you're trying try to save. Don't want to be saved in the way that you're trying to save the merger just comes off condescending and there are just is this risk in in a lot of the ways that she talks like if you don't agree career dumb and it does actually I mean Biden got to this a little bit and he was obviously talking about Hillary Clinton when he was talking about it but I think that this is true of of all humans. They WANNA feel dignity. And if you feel like you're being talked down to you know all of my family the coming from the midwest like that's really a problem it's like a really big problem if you're trying to win over people in battleground states they don't WanNa be felt like they're being given what I go home to New Jersey and I live in a really blue collar town and I talked to folks who who stand to benefit the most from a lot of the things that Elizabeth Warren is advocating for. They don't like her they feel condescended to and they don't want some of the things that she's advocating for. I don't know how you fix that true Political reality is nobody's going to get the vast majority of what they're saying that all of our talk about policy and the details of policy doesn't really matter what matters is beating trump. which is your other major concern at? The policy has some kinds of policy. No is it plausible construct. An expansion of the healthcare system is going to be Medicare overall. No what I meant was these candidates are very similar so given that what what they could do is very similar. Who is the one who is most likely to be in the position to do it? And that's the Question Right Biden and Warren and sanders are the three big fighters in this fighters. They're the ones who I could see. Standing on that stage with trump charisma is I know it's easy subject concept but it's a real thing and I it matters like Warren has charisma. You know I think it's a different kind of it is quieter charisma turn learn. What does that charisma that consist of with her? That's what I'm wondering because I I like her very much. I think I agree with you that she would govern this country very well. But what's the charisma has made that the Midwest so right now. Elizabeth Warren's charisma has her behind trump in some swing states but it has her ten points ahead of closure. I get that but I'm just saying if what you're looking for is specifically someone who is incredibly scrappy. You're looking at one aspect of what they're going to have to do and end scaring people is something they also need to avoid doing. Talking down to people is something they need to avoid understand too that taste one thing. He said Jesse Industry something. I say every election season and that is you know we talk. We talk about policies but when people go into the voting booths they do vote generally on the on the likability quotient ex- except when there's extremes streams at the end you know if it's not ex- this who they like and you know the some. Some extreme positions funds can translate into likability case from the challenge for all of the candidates. I mean that's just the reality and so after hours of deliberation I did what I do with every story which is I went out and I reported I talked to a ton of people. I talked to surrogate of candidates. It's I talked to activists who are on the ground in some of the early states and after all of that work I was left with just one conclusion and this wasn't actually my choice to make. Historically the editorial board has weighed in citing candidate it would prefer to win the party's nomination nation and as I considered making an argument for just one candidate the idea of picking a single person started to make less and less sense what what was clear and the aftermath of the twenty sixteen election was that the Democratic Party is having an extra central crisis. It's trying to determine then what its future passerby whether it's further to the left or further to the center. Is it going to be the party of the future. The party of John F. Kennedy the the party that takes the country and pushes Ford groundbreaking ideas or is it going to be party. That returns America to Stability Eh to bipartisanship to working across the aisle to getting things done and I just increasingly felt like it wasn't the place of the New York Times aditorial board to tell the Democratic Party where to go instead it was our job to give readers as much information as we could to arm them as they head out to the polls and let them make their choice. I decided to listen to the board's vote and that we would endorse both Elizabeth Warren and Amy Klobuchar for the nomination. Shen in this next section. You're GonNa hear me talk through my process with one of our producers Fibula so Katie. Tell me how you made this decision. It was hard coming Out of the deliberations. There are really four candidates that I felt I could consider given the the board's vote which was Buddha Judge Booker Warren enclosure and then the Iran conflicts happened so I spent the first two weeks talking to a lot of smart people. Aw I read through the transcript. Says we were preparing them for publication. And then we had this standoff with Iran and I was the feeling so concerned about what was going to be happening in the Middle East and so I talked to through with a couple of editors and I sat and worked on a draft of endorsing Joe Biden and the reason why was really because he's been in the room for this kind of decision making around foreign policy when he came in the part where he was the strongest was when he talked about past decisions that he had made in the Obama Administration and in the Senate around foreign policy specifically he had been one of the people questioning how many troops to send to Afghanistan and Iraq. And there's certain comfort in having someone who's done done the job in the chair again and I said you know it was like the ridiculous draft two thousand words I read Through it and I was like Oh you know this is not a moment for a comfortable. He just doesn't have the urgency to match what I personally I feel like the country needs in terms of fixing what's broken and that's because for one. His policies are not very specific. Nick there's this common theme of we're going to return to normal. Obviously normal wasn't working for a lot of Americans in terms of them feeling disconnected from government to he on a lot of his policies. It feels like tinkering around the edges as opposed to a full throated like we need to change. And even Amy Klobuchar has so much more of of that in her book the way she talks but also in the plans that she set out I mean she has perhaps one of the most ambitious I one hundred day plans that we've seen from candidate so far and I also just somewhat similar with Senator Sanders. Worry yeah about his health and his age and what it means to have someone who's approaching their eighty s in the White House and I I don't think that that that's not like what changed my mind but it is something that I was considering. We Endorse Elizabeth Warren. Because the urgency of the moment we've lived through three years of a trump administration that has really caused us to rethink a lot of the institutional norms that that we took for granted. We don't actually necessarily agree with a lot of the prescriptions. That she's talking about we've never backed Medicare for all. Well we don't believe in decriminalizing the border we have a lot of misgivings around free college for all. But there's some power to how she talks about the problems that so many Americans are facing right now and her plans are incredibly detailed for getting us to a place that makes the country more fair freer and hopefully healthier so it just seemed like in this moment despite misgivings it made sense to say. This is an incredibly competent candidate for president and you really should consider her. And then we also endorse senator. Kobe Shar because she seemed to be making the best case for bipartisanship chip in unity in the US and after three years of Donald Trump. I personally feel and I think a lot of our board members feel this tug towards someone who wants to to be the president for the whole country again and her plans are not as progressive as Elizabeth Warren's but they're still really progressive she would would make meaningful strides on climate change on healthcare with her public option plan on the border on improving proving our alliances with foreign governments again and she talks about limiting military intervention. Just like Bernie Sanders yet. She doesn't doesn't in a way that I think a wider swath of voters are going to be able to relate to one of the things that I found particularly appealing about cope. Hope Shar is the way that she talks about really complex ideas she brings them down to the human level I love when she talks about climate. Change for instance because because she relates back to farming communities in Iowa or miners in northern Minnesota. It's not at the thirty thousand foot level. She's not talking about deep science. It's all there you know. She knows all of the facts and the figures that she's making informed decisions but she's able to talk about it in a way that the average person can understand why there's an impact to them and why we need to make a change. which so you went to candidates? has that ever happened before. For The New York Times editorial board in fact it has in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. The board running endorsement spent for all three candidates in the race Dukakis core and Jesse Jackson now as a lot less satisfied that a door they actually vote for anyone. Bud George H W Bush without the the meeting s of explaining exactly why we're saying these. The two women are the leading voices for two different paths that the Democratic Party could take going forward. They are quite different in how they would take the party forward but not necessarily on the what either one would be extremely progressive among the most progressive candidates in have ever among the most progressive presidents ever leave reality. Is that what we're hearing from. Voters as they need this field to be narrowed road in order to have a real conversation. And that's what we tried to do. The two candidates endorsement I spent wasn't unprecedented has had a lot to say about this decision against against all odds times endorsement managed to be even dumber than we were all right. It can't choose one just pitiful. I have to say the dereliction here. By The New York Times this endorsement or these two endorsements in general just cop-out right and frankly I think the pop and some of the biggest criticism came from our own colleagues who host the opinion section other podcasts. The argument Russ and Michelle. What was your initial reaction reaction to the joint endorsement? I mean I kind of hated it. since we're since we're being honest I looked at it and said okay. This means Biden. It is going to win Michelle. I was relieved that it wasn't Joe Biden. There was things in the endorsement that I thought were unfair. I thought some of the digs against Warren and also really against Bernie Sanders. Where a little unfair? But in terms of just advice to voters it was it aligned with what I think. What did you think David? It felt anti-climactic to not what help voters choose between these two and and let's be clear. Many voters aren't in a lane. They are trying to decide between clove Machar and war or between Bernie Indian by going into this. Did you know people were going to hate your answer. Whatever it was I absolutely knew that people are going to be unhappy with the fact that we selected had two candidates to endorse? I think it's interesting that this is actually Ben A decision that has brought all all heaters one of the more interesting themes to some of the takes of it is that I've somehow belittled both of these women by refusing to choose is one of them. I'd never even occurred to me that that's what people would think. I honestly never brought gender or race or or sexuality into the picture as we were deciding who to endorse. I love the Democrats. The selection have to who strong women to choose from and have such an diverse field that they've been able to select from. I think for a lot of democratic voters the absolute central question is who can be Donald Trump. We decided that that was impossible to know right. Now Twenty Sixteen taught us that we can't rely on in polling to tell us who's the most electable you see polls from Iowa still now where forty three percent of people are undecided about which candidate they wanna back you know we decided instead we had to look very closely at the policy prescriptions that each candidate was selling to the voters and we want edge. Who really think about how they would govern once? They're in office. Have you heard from either candidate since you endorse them. I didn't really expect to hear from either of them. One thing that happened after we announced the endorsement is EMEC overshirt had was endorsed by the Quad City Times which is a local Iowa paper and she and her team immediately pinned that to the top of her twitter. Time Line. That endorsement stayed right up there at the top which I think is a good indication that emit closure has has her eye on the ball right now. Her main priority needs to be speaking to Iowa and New Hampshire voters and I think that that hopefully will yield good things for her once. The primaries and the caucuses begin. This concludes the choice. We hope it gave you a fuller picture of each of these candidates. Buying for your vote and now you have a choice to make registered to vote in your state's primary and encourage everyone in your life to the same gauge volunteer for a candidate. Hold a voter registration. Drive in your neighborhood. There are so many ways you can be part of the political process in twenty twenty. Keep the conversation going and talk to the people around you as we enter this primary. Mary season we'll see what the polls and may the best woman win. Thanks for listening sharing our episodes. If you haven't heard every episode go back and give them a listen for the deeply curious. Check out the full transcripts of all of our interviews online at NY TIMES DOT COM backlash endorsements that's endorsements with an S. and finally to hear the rest of the debate with our colleagues on the argument head over to their feet and listen to the episode titled. Why endorsed two candidates the choices produced by ATWILL media? Mitch Boosting Molly Socia- Ashley Taylor and Rachel Lightner with help from Michel Mason mixing by Lauren Gardner and original music by Allison Leyton Brown special. Thanks to Tyson Evans from the New York. Times are executive producers are Willnot from will media and and Phoebe Latte from the New York Times. Finally we want to hear from you. Please rate and review us on the apple podcast APP. It'll help more voters find the show. We saw the Des Moines Register Endorse Elizabeth Warren. I think in a way we probably gave them permission to do that. Of course they got to have a little bit of fun. Ed are expense. But you know what a sick burn What did they say Something like guess choice very hard but we did it. We were able to pick one. It was pretty funny.

Joe Biden Donald Trump Elizabeth Warren senator sanders The New York Times Democratic Party editorial board senator Senate Iowa Michelle New York The Times Ed Harris US Aaron sorkin president John F. Kennedy
The Pandemic vs. The President

The Argument

38:31 min | 5 months ago

The Pandemic vs. The President

"I'm Rostow third. I'm David Leonhardt and live from time center. This is the you might notice that we are down one host tonight. Shell is out with a cold. Just too cold Michelle wishes she were here particularly because whenever we do a live show. Michelle finds out that she is the host with the opinions that are most popular among our audience. But we wish her well and we'll see her back here next week this week. The Corona virus. And what is the president's job in a time of crisis then we'll quiz Ross. About his new book the Decadent Society and play a little game. Divide us all. We're here at the time center in Midtown Manhattan with three hundred. Some odd friends down the street Broadway shows are getting ready to open with packed audiences but some people are worried. We've all heard about the run on hand sanitizer and face masks when the markets opened this week stocks dropped so quickly that was briefly halted part of a rule intended to avoid a panic. Ross how do you think about the stage that we're at right now will broadway? Curtains be going up a week from now the way they are tonight so I've been sort of professional alarmist throughout the entire progress of the corona virus So you know with that as background. My my suspicion is that this is sort of the last normal week in the northeastern United States. And that if you look at trends in infection rates that as we ramp up testing we will discover more clusters of infection like the one that clearly exists in Westchester. Not that far from here that far from members of my family when it actually gets to Broadway but if you think of us right now on our current trajectory as being a few weeks behind where certain other countries that have taken more drastic measures are. I think it's totally reasonable to expect some form of pretty dramatic closures of all kinds of public events including podcast live shows so I guess. Let me make the case that were overreacting a little bit and because I do think some people have questions that are understandable so this has a mortality rate that we don't yet know what it is. There's a chance it's almost certainly seems higher than the flu. We don't know whether it's many times higher only somewhat higher. It's too late to stop. Its spread I assume you agree with that. It's going to spread. And so the idea of shutting down our entire country for something that is very alarming but basically mostly seems to do the most damage to specific populations. Shouldn't we at least have a more targeted strategy? Then essentially shutting down our entire economy. I told you some people question. I'll be shaking your hand later. Firm a firm grip so no. That's completely wrong and let me let me tell you. Why so one? Yes this has a. This does not have as high mortality rate as some of the diseases bowl most famously. That have panic. People and inspired strong mobilizations in response however it has a combination of slow effectively slow development within the human body which makes it easier to spread. You don't get sick that fast so you can easily become a super spreader to us at least an Internet term of art and that combined with them mortality rate that we don't know what it is but we know pretty well that it substantially higher than the flu jagged. Go on but I'll get into case for Tony and measures in a minute. It's interesting I think when people hear this idea we wanna slow the spread or at least I had this initial wait a second. Why does it matter the pace of the spread but it does matter? I've come to understand for a few different reasons. One we hope eventually GonNa have a vaccine right. Maybe twelve months eighteen months away. But if you can keep more people from getting an until then that would be better but to. There's this whole question of what it means for hospitals and our public health infrastructure and having a spread with maximum speed that overwhelms. The hospitals is a very different situation with a slower spread. Yes and this is what is as far as I can tell happening in northern Italy right now and it's the reason. The Italian government is taking very unattached alien Fishing no mass. No Pizza. No you know I mean it's it's and and the store I mean you know I'm joking but the story is from northern. Italian hospitals are terrible. That you are losing. You know you're making choices about which patients get a ventilator which patients get hospital beds in some cases base. There's sort of this patient just too old or in poor health to save so I guess you you want you want to slow the spread but you also want i. Don't you know the scenario where that epidemiologists talk about? Where Bell Forty or sixty percent of Americans get it? If that's going to happen I wanted to happen after we get the vaccine basically like I don't I don't see any upside and saying well it's inevitable. That forty to sixty percent of the country will get this. I don't think it's inevitable. I think the effective responses suggest. It's not and we should be taking those effective responses and we should be. I mean this is. This is a moment for a kind of a kind of quasi authoritarian public response of the kind so. Michelle is not here which is a tragedy. Because I feel that she and I if you listen to the PODCAST. No have a long-running argument about whether Donald Trump is fundamentally a fascist or fundamentally clown and and I feel that trump's disastrous reaction to the threat of a virus from a country that he has scapegoated that should be like if the true fascist response to this would be wild over reaction militarization. All kinds of things and trump cares about is trying to talk the stock market into going back up. But here tonight I feel that. My interpretation of trump has been partially vindicated by his disastrous response. So our friend has reclined. Tweeted that trump's turn from claiming this isn't a big deal to having a really xenophobic nasty. Said of blame shifting is going to be ugly when it happens and I either said or implied. It was going to happen soon. Do you think Ezra's right that we're going to start to see some of trump's most intense bassist white nationalist impulses coming out soon. I mean look I would expect that. Trump's lashing out. Yeah we'll take on some sort of toxic forms at some point at the same time. What makes me hesitate with that argument? Is that a month and a week ago. Trump did the one the one good thing that he's done. In all of this was impose a not complete but partial travel ban for people who had passed through China. And when he did that maybe not as rower yourself but there was sort of a chorus of you know sort of right thinking people saying this is in a phobia and it's going to end up scapegoating. Asian people in Chinese people and it's just an extension of his Muslim ban. That's just nonsense right. Trump was right to do that and there are a bunch of things that he could do. Now that would be more draconian that he should be doing or considering doing and so until he actually does those things I don't. I don't sit around worrying about his Zena phobic rhetoric. Because we need we actually need some action we need a little more. We need a little more nationalism. Like the thing that trump sold of hi. I'm the tough guy who's going to protect you from foreign threats. I would take a little more of it right now. I think the thing that's hard is look the in some ways. Although the details are very different. I'm taking back this week to like two thousand six two thousand two thousand seven in particular and then two thousand eight in the financial crisis right and I recall during that period really for the Bush administration just to take control right. I had lots of disagreements with the Bush administration on all kinds of issues but I was just rooting for them to take control and they did. I mean the Obama Administration gets not enough credit for for what it did to stop the financial crisis but the Bush administration also doesn't get enough credit for what it did at least in two thousand seven two thousand eight performance before that was much less. Good I don't have that same feeling where I'm just kind of rooting for the trump administration to take control. Because I have no faith in them right. You don't want Mike Pence. Administering your warranty. That's exactly right so I'm rooting. You've got some Nice Red Rhodes Nick down. Yeah and like various anti-science opinions on all of us. I agree with you restricting. Travel for people who were in China. Sounds like a SMART IDEA. But we are also dealing with an administration that has shown itself to B. Both racist and incompetent. And so it's really hard to to take any individual thing they do or maybe more to the point to have any hope that they're gonNa do something decent over the next couple of weeks so I certainly take the second half of the point to the first half of the point. I mean go back to the Bush administration an Obama Administration response. In hindsight there were tons of problems with that response tons of problems sort of basic justice. Right where in the end the steps we took to ward off a financial crisis ended up bailing out large financial institutions. That have gotten us into the mess in part more than they bailed out ordinary taxpayers. And that's supporting Elizabeth Warren. That's why I'm here to report Elizabeth. Warren yes you all failed her. I staying true and this fed. You know this sense of sort of basic injustice has has fed everything from occupy Wall Street two parts of the Tea Party to Bernie Elizabeth Warren Today. And I think it does. I think there's a left wing critique of the Obama White House that says the reason they lost so much ground to Republicans in two thousand ten was was because of this that you needed essentially that the response was practical but not moral in in in in a certain sense and so I think it's totally reasonable to fear a trump administration response that in some different way would be practical but not moral but I think in situations of crisis. You prefer a practical response with moral problems to no response at all right and I mean that. That's I that's basically where I am right now. I don't have tons of confidence in Mike Pence. I'm less worried about the the theocratic stuff than you are. But the the the sort of medical experts are not political actors in the final analysis. And if what you need is for the president of the United States to get on the phone to the governor of Washington and say I need you to shut your state down and I promise you an aid package from Washington that will prop up your state for the next six months. That's something that only trump can do right right. Well right now yes yes yes so this is I mean look we. This is right at this moment. This does look like the vindication of a certain kind of never trump opinion that I held at the outset of this presidency and then I sort of tiptoed away from the there was an expectation that trump not only would trump unable to handle the demands of the office but that the world would test him right in ways that lead quickly to crisis and in a lot of ways that has not happened. There's been the striking thing about these few years that in foreign policy and foreign policy in the economy and so on whatever you think about the moral dimensions of the trump administration. It has not been a practical catastrophe. But this is this case is as far as we've gone towards the worst case scenario that never that some never-trumpers feared and yeah. It leaves you with this this awful realization that the person who you need to take practical steps. Maybe actually incapable of doing them. And maybe I'll have to go back and dust off my twenty fifth amendment columns from wave. I mean it seems more plausible than it did two weeks ago the twenty Fifth Amendment. I mean I'm not. I'm not going back to that. I I tried. What was sort of sort of funny about the first half of this conversation is I feel like us? Such a normal dynamic between us among the three of us. We're Michelle. I'm talking saying talking to you. Guys off the ledge and there's no talking to you. I'm not on the Ledge. I'm looking now. I don't lose the metaphor. What should we be rooting for in terms of if we have no faith in president trump? What should we be rooting for from him? I think we should be rooting. For sort of substantially draconian measures undertaken by state and local officials. Because the alternative is worse. You're saying yeah you and not only draconian I mean look you know I mean there are. There are lots of things we should be doing right like the I mean. In certain ways it was absurd and in certain ways it was immoral because it came from prison labor but the fact that Governor. Cuomo OF NEW. York's got out today with his New York brand of peril. I mean that's good right. Some some enterprising governor should be requisitioning factory to make n ninety five masks right now like this is. This is the United States of America. How can we have a mask shortage? I still have a case for optimism. In my case for pessimism. I still think this can be contained. I just think we have to do it. Well Okay let's end it there and take a break. Hi Phoebe let producer on the opinion of the New York Times. What we do in opinion at the Times can often be controversial. But that's what we do here. On the opinion desk we gather experts people at the center of the big news story whose voices we entrust on the issues of the moment. We work with those people the craft and argument that makes sense presented with clarity and respect for the other side. If we're not sparking a debate if we're not asking you to examine your own assumptions then we're not doing our job when you subscribe to the New York Times. You're not just supporting the journalism you've got from our newsroom. You're becoming a stakeholder in the discussion you can subscribe at ny times dot com slash. Subscribe of the job of the presidency. You had quite a critique of trump's social media habits in your book the Decadent Society You mentioned that trump as the actual real life. President is weak not strong and overwhelmed by the job. You wrote that. His presidency resembles unsurprisingly. Reality Television on that score. I would've guessed that many of our listeners agree with you. So in the book you define decadence as economic stagnation institutional decay and cultural and intellectual exhaustion at a high level of material prosperity and economic development. That is quite very tiffy. What interested interested in the subject of decadence? So I think that in certain ways this book is an attempt to capture pre corona virus. This sort of weird problem in developed countries. Where on the one hand? It's very clear that people are unhappy with the broad situation and APPs manifest in everything from You know in the extremes what we call depths of despair rising suicide rates Opioid addiction alcohol abuse. And so on to disruptions in disturbances in our politics populism on the right Bernie Sanders on the left and so on so if you if you looked at those aspects of our society you would say well things must not be going very well but then from the other corner you hear the voice of say Steven pinker saying what are you talking about. Things have never been better. The world has never been richer. Life expectancy has never been this long. We've never had so little violent. We've never had. He wrote an entire book about the decline of violence. That was debatable but described real trend especially in America since the one thousand nine hundred and I think you can synthesize these two by saying in fact pinker is right that in material terms. We have not were not in a crisis or catastrophe. We have in certain ways never had it so good But we have also reached a kind of we've entered into a period that lies sort of passed the peak basically where you achieve a certain level of prosperity a certain level of technological proficiency and then it gets harder to advance much further and so economic growth rates. Don't disappear we still can muster one point five to two percent growth but they slowed down dramatically your deficits increase and you end up essentially paying yourself to feel like you're still growing the way you did fifty years ago or you run out of easy or relatively easy. Technological innovations so technological innovation in the Western world has been concentrated more and more in simulation and communication in Silicon Valley basically. And there's been a clear falling off in a lot of other areas relative to what people expected in sixties and then you have political decadence which is the least controversial part of my argument but basically the idea is that you know that you have a sort of overlay of several successful systems right. The American constitution is a very successful system. The American welfare state has been a very popular system for many years but the way they combine and converge now means that the veto points of the constitution the polarization of the political parties. And the fact that the welfare state is huge and complicated and no one understands it in every program has an interest group that wants to protect. It means that you can't change anything. It's impervious to programs of reform the best. You can do like build an extra mechanical arm on one side. Which is what. Obamacare basically did to the healthcare system so that's political decadence its success followed by sclerosis and then and then you have demographic decadence which again is pretty obvious there. You can argue about how bad the thing is. But since the nineteen sixties every rich society in the world has started having few children to sustain itself and again it's not a crisis or catastrophe. It's just something that makes society older less innovative less dynamic more resistant to reform. So that's the broad sketch and then I also tack on a more controversial argument that in pop culture and intellectual debates. We've also been going in circles since the nineteen seventies and so I can deliver a whole soliloquy and will if prompted on the star wars movies and the Ark. How when when and where decadence sets in as we pass from George Lucas to the J.J. Abrams era. So that's so that's that's the argument. To what extent though isn't this in large part of the inequality story so what about to say doesn't explain everything you said but is to some extent decadence the average between people at the top actually just continuing to do really well healthier. They have to deal with less discrimination in their lives. Not No discrimination. But less discrimination than in the past. They're living much better. They take advantage of all kinds of advances communications and otherwise. And then however you wanted to find that a top ten percent maybe a top one percent depending on your view and then for every one else the quality of life has really stagnated that. It's not a broad brush of decadence. But it's really some sort of cleavage. So I mean I think that I think that inequality is part of the tangle of all of these forces and one of the things I try and argue in the book rather depressingly. I guess is that there isn't it. Isn't that one of these forces is driving? All the others isn't that we have a broken politics and so our economy is stagnant. And you know it's it's I think. The same is true of inequality inequality feeds it feeds certain kinds of decadent encourages rich people to spend on luxury goods rather than transformative innovations it sort of easy in a certain kind of feedback loop with economic stagnation because a slow growth society in a slow growth society. It's easy for the rich. Stay rich in a more Dynamic Society. It feeds in with low birth rates at the same time. I think if you look at you look at the economy of the last twenty five years right. The one period of genuine dynamism in the United States was the late. Nineteen Ninety s right. This was the one period when productivity growth went up we basically got the Internet dividend. This one big technology and the break one period where we had really good rising wages and incomes down the spectrum. Some people would argue getting again. But we're not really would have to go on for a couple more years. Yes as of this morning. It appears like might not. Yeah but it was also an era. When you had spiking inequality relative there was more growth of inequality in the late nineties and there was in the ten years after because you had people suddenly making these big fortunes in the Internet economy and so I don't. I don't think examples like that makes me skeptical that it's simple as you know if we just tax the rich little more redistributing wealth that that would generate a sort of larger dynamism. Seems like you know you can have periods of strong growth increasing prosperity also generate a lot of inequality because some rich people are collecting outside gains. Because they were lucky or corrupt or had some great innovation. So I don't think I don't think you get out of decadence by solving inequality even though inequality is clearly connected to the story. Okay let's play game so your book inspired us. We've come up with a little game that we're GONNA call decadent or not. Yes music for filling all my childhood fantasies of growing up to be wink. Martindale okay. Here's how it works. We'll show you a piece of viral media. Maybe a poor choice of metaphor this week but and you will tell us if it is decadent or not. Are you isn't all viral media de you're gonNA tell us okay. Okay okay here. We go sued a video of someone telling Bernie Sanders at a rally. That she has a tattoo of Bernie Sanders okay. So then. Tattoos are tattoos of Bernie. Sanders are not decadent. Sadly explain at US. My only in so far as tattoos to the extent that decadent represents a sort of at the psychological level sort of turned inward towards the therapeutic cultivation of personalized self identity that where you're abandoning action in the wider world and just navel-gazing tattoos or decadent but if you get a tattoo of Bernie Sanders. You're not doing any of that. You're committing yourself to the Socialist Cause Permanent Way Act. That is the only unbeckoned way to get a tattoo except for the huge crucifix under my shirt and the Ben Affleck Back Tattoo that I wear everywhere. I go okay next up earlier this year. A copywriter named Andrew cushing. Send out a tweet asking people to up with fake startup names and then he would write fake ad companies for the fake fake ad copy for the fake startup company okay. The whole thing went viral and an art director named Julie. Vaccaro got in on it too. She made these images for the fake companies fake ads. I will read some of them. Don't worry our lives in Coney Island to Bay the first dentist. You can play with your metro card and your plants are dying. Your apartment left voicemail. Introducing Gore F- The digital wallet for freelancers. Why are the choir the shrimp in the Deccan? Inter not I mean the This economy the economy satirized in these posters is decadent but satire of decadent is the first step to escaping decadent so these two are not decadent there about decadence with like my book so far okay. Final one so. We're now watching. Video of chicken case a dea. Being assembled right so the chicken. I think we've speed it up right to the chicken cooked. You think it's a chicken dish and then you think it's a barbecue dish. And then they're making a pizza but it turns out to be a Burrito with the chicken. Yes yeah you know I mean it's kind of incredible? See Before we go. This is this is. This is a crucial crucial district. You're going to have a moment here to think okay and ask the audience okay. We're going to give you two choices decadent or not for this final one so if you go decadent give us a nice round of applause. Now if you vote not decadent give mice rumble. Pause founded judge of offense stack in it. You're going to have obviously in the conventional definition. This is decadent as a weekend in Vegas is what you eat the morning after you went to like the Bondage Dem in Vegas right so so in that in that sense it's obviously decadent but in my sense this is old fashioned American ingenuity. I mean it's not quite the spirit that put a man on the moon but it's at least like Gemini Mission Level Invention so I'm GonNa go with not too okay. It is now your turn. We have some time for audience. Questions is our our favorite part of live shows there. I understand there is a Mike and each. Thank you for coming out high. I've noticed popped up on my cell phone just before we started before about Louie Gohmert. I think that's how you say. His name having been exposed to the corona virus at CPAC and. He said he's not going to do anything about it. He's going to continue going about his life and being with other people and I wondered especially what Ross thought about that whether something should be done just one of our favorite. This is one of our favorite kinds of segments for the show. It's Republican did outrageous things. Ross please respond. Plus it seemed to me that it's hard of trump's about this isn't a big deal and so let's all go about our lives and go to work. Yeah I mean the first to Ted Ted Cruz. And another congressman. Paul Gosar fan pronouncing his name right both ourselves. Fourteen way and I mean that's that's not a good idea. Bakley continuing to meet with people is not a good idea it does sort of. I mean there's been this weird flip because of trump bright where you know four weeks ago when trump did the initial travel ban. I didn't write about it because I'm not an epidemiologist but I probably should have written about it because I'm a columnist but I felt like there was sort of an alignment of sort of natural reactionary. Tendencies with good policy and then thanks to trump's decision to sort of go the route of unconcerned that has flipped. And you know normally I like to the extent that there is a sort of reactionary brain. It tells you to like distance yourself from contagion right. But there's I guess it's a testament to the power of partisanship over deep ideology. That people whose ideology should make them panicked about a foreign threat because of their partisanship feel like they have to say no. Everything's fine. I'm hitting hitting. I'm hitting the rope line. So but that is independent of what a president can do legally and so on at the very least a strong president should be able to call up congressman of his own party and tell them to stay home for two weeks. So thank you thank you. Hi in mid-january actually started the krona virus because seem less depressing than what was going on. And now that it's hit here and weirdly hopeful because I'm kind of maybe I'm Delusional. But think that this actually might be the thing that sinks trump. I mean now now definitely channeling Michelle. Do you WanNa join and is your name. Michelle I mean. What is it like? This is not going to go away. In a month. I'll do the analytical bit and then you can explain why we shouldn't be rooting for Curtis. Ross you can get. This is really bad for trump right. I think the stock market is is it extremely imperfect gauge of the economy but to the extent that it is engage in a meaningful one which it is. It's it's forward-looking right and so so this isn't telling us what the economy's doing today telling us what people who actually have money at stake think the economy is going to do over over the future and and I actually although I do sometimes think there's a level of panic that is unjustified. I do really think I agree with Ross. I think we're on the cusp of things. Feeling very different. The only other thing I would add before Ross explains why we shouldn't be rooting for the buyers is there are almost eight months until election day. Think about how much has changed in the last two weeks right two weeks ago the economy was great and the Democrats were about to nominate a socialist through good times but people are still locked down in Wuhan. Yeah yes this is now no. I think you're right. China China has China has controlled it by continuing to lock down a major province. So that's it's clear that the steps you need to contain it are steps that probably are not going to lead to a v-shaped recovery that helps trump in the fall. You know I mean again. This obviously goes back to questions. About how bad trump is to begin with and the closer you get to regarding trump as like a true fascist menace. The more people will sort of root for a catastrophe that might seem to derail him. I think to bring this back to my argument in the book available outside Deck I think trump is a manifestation of decadence. And this is bad. And it's not just bad because you eat too many fancy foods or you eat that ridiculous piled high burrito or whatever burrito pizza or whatever it was it's bad because it includes misgovernment corruption cruelty all the things that liberals and not only liberals rightly dislike about trump but there are worse things in decadents and in any era when it feels a little decadent. There's a temptation to root for the things that are ultimately worse and the politics of anti decadence. And I'm to be clear I'm antidepressant. The politics of anti-depressants has a long history of leading to you. Know more disastrous. Things people are worried about decadence in nineteenth century Europe. And you got World War. One people were worried about decadence in Weimar Germany. And you got he who shall not be named my conservative friends. After nine eleven happened said well. This is the wakeup call that America needs. And now we're going to leave our bill. Clinton era decadence behind spread democracy around the world. And that did not go well either. This isn't a case like that. We're not choosing the corona virus. But it still you know to to root for the catastrophe is to take a really big a really big risk and I you know I think that there are. It is in many cases rooting for a catastrophe to end. Decadence is something that you end up regretting later. Hi My name is Reed. I'm twenty four and I don't know if either of you have read it but I recently started reading the coddling of the American mind. How good ideas and bad into good good intentions and bad ideas or setting up a generation for failure and I guess my question is as a person who graduated from college in New York City almost two years ago how do we incentivize administrations and students to listen to dissenting opinions. I mean I'm a gay woman and I would consider myself fairly liberal but I definitely witnessed and experienced in classrooms. People advocating for safe spaces and things of that nature which just to me feels like completely antipathetic to progress and being able to sit across from somebody who doesn't agree with you on everything I think is super important. So how do we get administrations to you know not let students protests speakers that they don't agree with and things of that nature? What a good question. Great question we're doing. Let's do we'll just do one. Okay can you take that right? Well my speaking fees are very reasonable. I never I never get protested. I'm so I was at Middlebury recently and everybody was very friendly. Unserious answer the serious answer is I think there's a problem that isn't just. I think the problem Collagen's in my estimation is that the administration of colleges often doesn't have any kind of moral vision for what the school is supposed to be and so the reaction against that sort of social justice. Reaction is an understandable one that I think it's understandable that college kids want a kind of you know they want a moral education. And so there's it's it's not as simple as saying we just need administrators to be sort of you know to defend free speech. You need to have some sort of you. Need to have some way to have both commitment to freedom of expression but also some sense of a you know purpose driven education I think that would in certain ways satisfies some of the impulses that lead to protests politics and protests against speakers and obviously the answer is for all universities to become Catholic much more narrowly and quick. I was just saying to Fordham Catholic. Sorry sorry no no. Forgive me much for narrowly. I would say make your case. I bet you'll win most arguments when you do. Thank you and that's our show. Thank you so much to everyone for coming out to see US tonight. Tonight's show is produced by James T Green and edited by Sarah Knicks for transmitter media. We held from phoebe. Lack Ian Persad Philbrick Tyson Evans and Katie Kingsbury. Our executive producer. Is GRETA COMB? Our music is by Allison. Leyton Brown very special. Thanks goes to the folks at the time center. Abby Privilege Harmony and Sam Barnes. Welcome to the live show at the end of the world.

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Amy Klobuchar: The Interview

The Choice

51:22 min | 7 months ago

Amy Klobuchar: The Interview

"The New York Times critic SPEC to kill a mockingbird is beautiful elegiac satisfying even exhilarating raves. Jesse Green. It's the most successful American in play in Broadway. History says sixty minutes rolling stone gives mockingbird five stars calling it a landmark production of an American classic and. NPR says. It's one of the greatest greatest plays in history all rise. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mocking bird. A new play by Aaron sorkin directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot com. I have hired people have extraordinary talent and that is the reason that I passed over one hundred bills and I yeah I know I can be tough on people and push people and you can always do better but I ask you to look at some other metrics. I'm I'm Katie. Kingsbury from the New York Times Dettori aboard and welcome to the choice a new podcast. The brings you behind closed. Doors and into the exclusive deliberations process around around the New York Times picked the twenty twenty presidential candidate in each episode. You'll hear Democratic presidential candidates. Make their pitch as they interview the biggest job of their careers every election year. The board chooses a candidate it after closed-door off the record interviews and a lot of internal debate but the stakes are so high in two thousand twenty and we think voters deserve to hear how we decided an hour our pin as the best candidate to be Donald Trump. So we're giving you access to these conversations and the debates that followed so you can make the tweet for yourself to learn more about how the board works and WHO's on it. Go back and listen to episode one of the series. We've trimmed each of these interviews down but if you'd like to read the full transcript you can find them on NY TIMES DOT COM backslash endorsement. That's endorsements within the next candidate visit us with Senator Amy Klobuchar who announced her campaign outside during a Minnesota Blizzard. Hard to visiting the New York Times headquarters in December probably felt downright bombing or you as the granddaughter of an iron ore miner as daughter of a teacher and a newspaper man as the first woman elected to the United States Senate from the State of Minnesota announced my candidacy for president hunter. Senator closure was the the first woman elected to the Senate and Minnesota's history and she's enormously popular there. Despite president trump almost winning the state in two thousand Sixteen Sitter Kluber Shar captured. Should the country's attention during the break. Cavanaugh hearings. Or you're saying there's never been a case where you drink so much that he didn't remember what happened the night before part of what happened. It's you're asking asking about blackout. I don't know if you that's not happened. Is that your answer. I'm curious if you have twitchy. Cooley responded I have have no drinking senator. Columbus ours campaign has been branded Minnesota Nice. She herself as a moderate in this race. Who firmly believes a bipartisan? Approach is the only way the next president will be successful. We need answers as to how that would work in practice. We apologize for the Audio being rough at times we recorded recorded in a classroom. Beautiful Authority. Bus Terminal using wireless mics that are great for television but not ideal for podcasting so senator. We've we've all watched the debates. Many of us have herders on the trail. So we wanted to ask you today. We've heard you talk a lot about healthcare in the past and the Middle East and your pass boyfriends so we want to ask you some questions that we haven't heard you answer so far. The former Vice President Joe Biden is still leading in a lot of states. Your platform in many ways is very similar to his. Make the case for us of you versus Joe Biden. The number one case is that I am someone on that has a record of bringing people with me and winning in districts that alluded the Hillary Clinton campaign campaign in two thousand sixteen and the I guess proof. Point is What happened in Minnesota? Where Secretary Clinton who would have been a great president and had her lowest percentage in a state that you want in the country and then I went on as I've done now three times to win every rural congressional district including the one bordering Iowa north and South Dakota including the iron range northern Minnesota where the steelworkers are an including Michele Bachmann district? And you don't do that just by a fluke when you do it three times and how I done this is by going. Not just where. It's comfortable but where it's uncomfortable. We also had the highest voter turnout in the United States of America When I have led the ticket and flip the State House every single time time from Republican to Democrat because it is truly a purple state so while a lot of people have talked about that on the stage They actually don't have the track record of doing it. And I think in such a critical election that that should really really matter The other thing about me is that I am from the heartland and I think that that matters in this election as well when you look at the states that we need to put together to not just have a victory at four in the morning but to win big. Those states include states that are very similar to mine Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin Iowa Ohio. Oh and as I have said several times I want to build a blue wall around those states and make Donald trump pay for it And those states have significant significant of course manufacturing but also agriculture on the only candidate. That's left in this field that asks to be on the Agriculture Committee. That's a senior member of that committee and that really knows these issues and it's an area where donald trump has completely mess things up and finally. I am in a new generation of leaders. I'm well aware I'm only one of two women that are left and I think that despite some of the common wisdom of who can beat Donald Trump I think a woman is a strong candidate to run against Donald Trump and one of my challenges is to convince some of those people who may be in Vice President Biden's camp Just because they think he's more electable or in Mayor Butit's camp That that actually. I'm the one that can win a growing number of Americans especially in the states that you just named believe that the economy is rigged against them. I get you who are calling for incremental change relative to other candidates. How do you make the case of data sufficient for the existing challenge? And how do you reach the more progressive aggressive members of the Democratic Party. Yeah I don't agree with the premise. I I don't think it's incremental To want to go to carbon-neutral with our environment and to finally get something done on climate change and my plan which is similar governor Inslee plan and I think he really did us all a favor by getting in this race and making that such an issue. My Plan is carbon neutral by twenty fifty And forty five five percent reduction by twenty thirty It involves the day I get in as president signing us back into the international climate change agreement and then putting back in place the clean power roles as well as the gas mileage standards so those are three examples of things I would do immediately. I don't think that's one bit incremental nor is introducing sweeping legislation to price carbon and we need a president. That knows again how to get this done. And the fact that I passed over a hundred bills since I've been in the US Senate not volleyball resolutions but actual bills in every one of them. Bipartisan I think it shows compared to every other candidate. That's left there. Maybe with the exception of the vice president Who of of course passed legislation when he was in the Senate That I have that ability to get things done so being bold isn't just giving some flowery speech are are being bold. Isn't just having the right talking points or getting people cheering being bold is about actually getting things done and being a progressive. The last time I checked meant that you should make progress and I have done that. And we'll do that as president soon after she got to the Senate in two thousand seven then senator. Columbus art introduced a bill to start a carbon tracking programme as a step towards cap and trade which is a system to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in which the government sets a limit mid on emissions and let's companies by trade pollution permits to meet the cap a two thousand ten cap and trade. Bill passed the house but stalled in the Senate under intense industry. Opposition Senator Klobuchar. You've mentioned your climate plan a couple of times which also includes a carbon pricing mechanism. Talk to us a little bit more in detail on how that that works just as a reminder. I covered the nine hundred ninety three ninety four debate over the BTU tax and the two thousand nine two thousand ten debate over over cap and trade. Both of them contributed to the loss of the House by Democrats. Yes and I was actually part of that cap and trade debate. I was on the committee at the time. I obviously supported the bill but I remember thinking among many things that was the worst name of Bill. Ever Cap and trade I I think everyone thought it was fine. Because because former senator McCain in the debates with President Obama had said he was for cap and trade in thin. I would be in parades and people with you know on trade no uncapped bad name so I would just like to start with that. Okay so the the answer to me is you have to put a price on carbon. You can do in many ways As I said at the town hall here in New York that some of this may depend honestly about if do we take back the Senate Which I believe we can do if we win big and I think the polls are starting to show? Oh that I'm right if we can win in Kentucky and Louisiana and the governor's race the day after Donald Trump goes down there. We can win in some of these Senate seats so I think you can do at one on by a tax on carbon. I think economists would prefer that it's the easiest most straightforward way to do it. You can do it with the cap and trade proposal and you could do it with a Renewable Electricity Standard. What would you do what which would enjoy? I would be supportive of all three of these things. I think the most straightforward forward way to do it is on a some kind of a tax on carbon but I am open to looking at other ways because I that is the difference between the plan and the pipe dream mm-hmm because I'm being realistic about how we get things done. What are you could do a combination? You could do a renewable electricity standard. which by the way my bill? When I first got to the Senate it which after cap and trade went down the environmental groups came to me and said maybe we should look at this? But you could do that at the same time you do some kind of attacks. I believe this is going to be the armageddon issue That presidents can have to stand up for because these other ones I mentioned taking on the pharmaceutical companies. You're ready you've seen some Republican Republican cracks on that And I think they know they have to get this done. Our president really has to make this a line in the sand when it comes to negotiating and working with Congress. I think more importantly as to look at. What are the issues that we can push in this campaign to get people with US beyond the coast? We have to to start making the case to the people in the middle of the country. What does that look like? Raging fires like you've seen in Colorado and Arizona where those firefighters died. It is the weird weather events it's the wet cropland and making it impossible either harvest or plant. It is the doubling of homeowners insurance and argument that it's not made enough Across this country it is the floods that we saw this last year in places like Iowa and Nebraska and in Missouri and I think so much of what we have to do is talk about what this is really meaning right now. Two people tie that to the economics and how we can make this work and most importantly since everyone's plans are really quite similar. Maybe with the exception of Bernie's I think what we need to do is to make people understand that we're going to keep them whole and the only way as you know having covered this You do that is with a carbon tax or some kind of fee on carbon because then you can take that money. I think I estimate two trillion and our plan. You take that money and you plug it into a few things research and technology into this you plug it into incentivizing those new jobs in those areas that GonNa be hurt the most by this transition and it shouldn't just have to be green energy jobs and you do it by helping people with their bills and people who it's going to affect a how much it costs for them to get their energy. Why do I emphasize this emphasize? Because we're we're not gonNA pass it if we don't do that. That's the difference between some of the things you talked about. and Ca- certainly felt different than how we talked about cap and trade and also. Because I've I lived this on. My GRANDPA was an iron ore miner in northern Minnesota. Those minds would open and close. He'd have to go get a job logging and then they'd open again. I I live this. Those senator closure has been trailing behind others in the polls standout moments on the debate stage at the October debate for example. She he called out. Senator Elizabeth Warren Medicare for all and I appreciate Elizabeth's work but again The difference between a plan and a pipe dream is something that you you can actually get done so now with a nod to one of your more dramatic debate moments. What is the difference? Then between over many taste the difference between a plan and a pipe dream right so the difference between a plan and a pipe dream is that you can get something done that you have a plan plan for how you get it done but you also have the ability to get it done so maybe one of the reasons that some of my ideas are slightly different than my opponents is because I have factored that in and I've certainly factored it in in my hundred day plan which I think shouldn't be lost and I appreciated Your newspaper actually devoted some time to looking at it Several of my opponents have come up and said this was a really good idea It's over a hundred thirty seven things so these are not pipe dreams that you can do without Congress legally the other thing about the plan in the pipe dream so one of those reasons. Yes I led with. Those things is because that's going to be a way to make people feel were part of a country that's moving forward again other examples of that for me It means we're not just going to say things at sound good on a bumper sticker And some of these ideas have merit. Don't get me wrong but I also look at. What are you promising people if we actually can't get this done if we actually don't even have the support With a good chunk of our own political party So I look at things like like the college issue and there I think and this is a policy thing for me. How do we connect the education system? We have now which needs a lot of help through K.. Through twelve something near and dear to my heart. 'cause my mom taught second grade till she was seventy years old. How do we hook that up into our economy me and where the jobs are and what bothers me is if we have? We don't look at what the fastest growing jobs right now which are one and two year degree jobs. So we're not gonNA have a shortage of MBA's or CEO's we're going to have a shortage of plumbers We're GONNA have a shortage of home healthcare workers we're going to have over a million the in home. Healthcare workers open those jobs in the next ten years. Our we're going to have set one hundred and something thousand openings as for nurse assistants and we're going to have sixty four thousand job openings for plumbers and so how do you make sure that we are one paying people enough at the the dignity of work do these jobs but then also making sure education system is fitting with our economy. Where does that leave me to with the pipe dream and the plan? Well that that says okay. What's the best policy but also how can we get it done? Hook it in with the economy and so that's where I ended up with one and two year degrees free and then doubling the pell grants which would help very much with the students that need it the most expanding the income level from fifty to one hundred thousand and so that would give give a lot more help to the people that need it most not sending wealthy kids to college for free but instead making sure that we're helping the people that need it the most I would extend that into loan repayments So that yes you allow kids to refinance student loans. How multimillionaires to refinance a yacht? Maybe you should allow allows students to refinance loans. But you also fix that loan payback program. That Betsy Devos has so messed up. Why can't the richest country in world simply provide free higher education at public institutions? Even when you look at countries that do this more I think they try to match their economy with what their jobs are so I would. I would rephrase it in a different way then. Why can't the richest country in the world do this? I would say why can't one of the most advanced ends countries in the world figure out how to make our education system work for our students so that they are able to be functioning members of of our economy in a good way and are able to make a living. Because it's not just about what their degree is it's also about when they are doing the job that we need them to do like working in a nursing home or fixing. Someone's plumbing how do we make sure that they have enough to raise their family so I would just look at it differently. I don't think we should be telling everyone that they should get a four year degree. I think we should figure out what they WANNA do with their lives with some incentives for them. I'm to do things that work in our economy and getting more people into technology in science and nursing instead of sports marketing degrees And if you do that what you sure better make sure that they have a higher minimum wage which I strongly support you better. Make sure that they have childcare access. Even if they're in the GIG economy which which is about a third of our workers right now so I would phrase that question differently. I don't think this is about everyone affording going to every single college. I think this is about looking at our economy and making sure our workers are being able to have a high quality of life and raise a family with the jobs that we have available now finds. It's a question of where you spend the money to spend the money on everyone getting a four year degree when I think I should spend the money on child care and retirement chairman and helping people that are the home healthcare workers that we need as we look at the silver tsunami which I don't call it anymore. It's negative silver surge coming our way with a with the aging of our population. Your platform calls for one hundred actions in one hundred days mostly by executive order. We're living within an administration that has has used a lot of executive orders so far I want to read a statement that you said Four Years F. Donald trump new president can't wait for a bunch of congressional hearings. The act the urgent problems of our country our country is facing. Excuse me require immediate action. How is that an improvement over the status quo? Because he's been doing things that are legal Not only the subject of this impeachment hearing right now But also how they what they propose there against the law whether they're using Emergency Declaration to justify a wall or whether they are putting forth agency changes And one of the more interesting things. I haven't seen the latest numbers. But I think bookings put out. Comparing their administration to say Bush Administration Clinton Administration Obama. How many of their rules and regulations have been overturned it is worth looking at? It's an astronomical difference between the other agencies and the other presidencies who who are actually those administration's trying to obey the law. So you have someone. That has been blatantly flagrantly disobeying the law across the Board. So I wouldn't do that. I am a lawyer I'm on the Judiciary Committee. I believe strongly in the rule of law. So what we have put together Is A I consider smart group of ideas that you can do that are legal and that includes things like I mentioned the three climate change ideas that includes things like. Here's when you might not I guess Closing the boyfriend loophole for gun purchases. That's my bill right now. I lead that provision and Debbie Dingle single took Took it on in the house after and reduced the bill that is in the violence against women. Act It's what stopping that bill. And as President I could actually close that loop also also domestic abusers can't get AK forty sevens or any other kind of gun. I close that loophole on my own. That you can get a waiver for bringing in less expensive pensive drugs from other countries that is legal at the same time. Of course. You're starting up. I WANNA do big bills. I can't do immigration reform. With the exception of changing some of his policies also at the border without Congress. See you can do two things at once. I'm a mom so you can do these things you can do legally by rule and you must then start because I come in big consensus. We move quickly. You start doing these major priorities and getting this bill through Congress more from our interview after a quick break to kill a mockingbird is unmissable and unforgettable raves rolling stone on five stars The New York Times declared it a critic's pick calling errands Zorkin's new play beautiful allogeneic satisfying even exhilarating A.. MOCKINGBIRD WORD FOR ARMAMENT SIXTY MINUTES says it's the most successful American play in Broadway history. A New York magazine calls it a real phenomenon. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch finch in Harper Lee's to kill a mockingbird directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot com. Welcome back to the the choice. I want to ask Kluber Shar about commonsense gun safety laws. She's about to cite the Charleston loophole. Which is bill aimed at closing? The gap in background checks the allowed to white supremacists to access firearms to kill nine churchgoers in Charleston. In Two thousand sixteen. And can I take you back briefly to the to the issue of executive orders orders and specifically. You mentioned the boyfriend loophole. But you've you've laid out an aggressive series of actions you would take. How would you go about doing that without alienating? Meeting the millions of gun owning Americans. Great question because people don't ask it enough So I am the one on that debate stage who has Again and one in areas that have a lot of hunters. My state is a big hunting state With the proud tradition of hunting and fishing. So when I look at these proposals I say say do they hurt my uncle. Dick in his deer stand They do not the assault weapons ban that I've long supported from when I was a prosecutor That does not hurt him in in his deer. Stand the universal background checks. Don't hurt him. The magazine limits don't hurt him. All of these are commonsense ideas so right now we have seen a shift gift in politics on this and if we screw this up it'll be on us because we should not screwed this up the shift in politics majority of trump voters support universal background background checks majority of hunters support universal background checks. Obviously they don't quite support some of the other things in his big numbers But I think you can get them in there. Would you support a mandatory by back for assault rifle. I would support a voluntary buy-back. None of that will matter if you don't get the assault weapon ban in place right away and then you you go from there so let me just so instead of going there where we have to go is how do we bring them with us. And we've seen what happened. It is law enforcement and has tried. They tried again. But we fail to get it. reauthorized the assault weapon ban for instance. It's not the only thing but it's one thing The MOM's tried after Sandy Hook. They set a good foundation but they failed in the US. Senate we fail. They'd we failed and then you go to Parkland and something changed after Parkland. It was when those kids stood up and all the other kids across the country saw Ben and people started talking to their dad's in their grampus boys stood stood out for the first time in a big way and it made a difference. That is why we passed universal background checks and closing the Charleston loophole closing the boyfriend loophole in the House representative because of the New People we had put in house. This is the moment that the Senate has to change and this is going to be one of the big issues in this campaign paint. I just see this trend and they are in the pocket of the NRA. I saw it firsthand. I was the one seated across you can watch the video. President President trump after Parkland in the White House with a group that had come there to advocate for gun safety legislation. I have a little piece of paper. I was sitting next to pants pants where I wrote down. How many times trump said he wanted? Universal background checks nine times. I Made Hash marks nine times and the next day he met with with the NRA and he folded. That's the story that people have to hear because he folded and he always folds those interests he folds to the pharmaceutical companies. He doesn't have the backs of the people of this country. So that's how you win. And that's how you make the case. But Yeah I do I condemn hunters. No I have them in my family Roy so I want to change strengthens little bit. Bear with me who is broken. Your heart besides a few boyfriends It's still gave me money when I asked him. Who has broken my heart? Okay here. We go Lindsey. Graham's broken my heart lately in the political system still just because I like him and November Lee while and traveled with him and Senator McCain all over. You're the all over the world. I'm just more thinking of Senator McCain and how much I miss them right now because I think he would have been really strong on Ukraine and on standing standing up against some of the things the president did and he's no longer with us and so of course. I was disappointed with how the cavenaugh a hearing was handled. I think everyone could see me on TV to see that But I just hope that he has the ability to rise up here and has a very important job right now as chair of the Judiciary Committee and Certainly Smart Enough And shown some tendency seeing the past to stand up for things and I just wish he would do it again when it comes to this conduct and a whole range of issues about our judicial system. Have you spoken Tim directly about that. I did after the cavenaugh hearing had a little skirmish and leave it. Put it behind us and but I have one thing he did. Do that was good. Head took over the honest ads act from Senator McCain Senator McCain died. And that's my bill where I took on the social media companies beneath before it was cool to say that they should have to put disclaimers show how they pay for ADS and have them on file so he did that with me. And he's done a few things with me since announcing her candidacy. Senator has been dogged by stories in the press about what an impossible hospital is to work for. You might have heard the one about eating a salad with comb. The senator hoping to win the White House with her. Mid Western niceness is now facing new allegations of mistreating treating her congressional staff the New York Times supporting any berated a staff member at an airport back in two thousand eight for failing to bring her a fork with her salad to Senator Klobuchar eight. The salad using a comb from her bag then handed the come to her aid and told him to clean it. A president does the ultimate boss and we need to hear her response to these allegations So I'm actually want to change directions again As as you well new. I'm there has been a lot of reporting including the New York Times about The work environment at that. You have in the Senate on one of the more troubling parts so that reporting to my mind was the the fact that you have the highest turnover in the Senate. Why don't talented people want to continue to work for you? But if they do. I hope you meet the people outside in the hall. which includes Tom Sullivan. Who was my deputy for years and ended up? This is John Kerry's Chief policy person or his brother Jake Sullivan who I brought to Washington. He's not out there now but he's a great example I have hired people have extraordinary talent and That is the reason that I passed over one hundred bills and I know I can be tough on people and push people and you can always do better but I ask you to look at some other metrics And including if you look at the latest my turnover rate is actually less than and any of the other presidential candidates From over the last year. 'cause they keep track of it except for I think Bernie and Michael Bennett so just look at the update on that And also I have a number of people that have gone on to the great things. I had a different hiring model. And there's a few other senators that do this. I have hired people that I kinda know may go work at the time for President Obama After a few years but I wanted their talent many of them come back. I've had over twenty people that went to high ranking positions in his administration. The other proof point you've got I would I think is quite significant. Is My presidential campaign. I may not be the leading candidate right now. But I have beaten like nineteen people including every governor And so you can't run a presidential campaign If you have a dysfunctional functional work environment my campaign manager is the same one I've had for fourteen years. My state director has been with me for seven years My chief of staff is is out there in the hallway. She's on the campaign side but the acting chief of staff has been with me for four years and is on her third baby. I've hired a lot of women. They have a lot of babies they leave they come back whatever. It's just a different hiring model and so I am very proud of the work that we've done and the standards that we've set And and like I said you can always do better but look at my presidential campaign and how we have hung together and talk to any of your reporters that have dealt with them. Senator you alluded earlier. Due to the fact that you're running to become the first female president of the United States. I'm wondering how on the campaign trail you're dealing with. A couple of competing realities is that we see in the polls on the one hand you see. Voters say that they would be really excited to vote for for president more than even a white man on the other hand. You look at the likability numbers for individual women candidates and they're in the single digits so I'm just wondering how you think about that reality as you're on the campaign trail. I think it is on me to make my case. The American people I address that some in the last debate and I was an interesting person to to address it about Kenna. Women Win Because I actually have gone out of my way to make clear that I'm running my merits which of course I still am and I will let me just explain that when I've run for the DA's job. I was the first woman in that job when I ran for Senate. In my state to vary a a qualified women had won the secretary state and one Majority Leader for the State Senate and I made it my mission to to focus on not that I want to be the first woman in this job because that's had happened in their campaigns but that I'm the right person for this job and I'll have your back and I will never forget being in a room. A steel steel workers and retired steelworkers and their spouses. In which one woman named Rose Brnovich raised her hand and said I've never voted for a woman before because they think they should be home with your kids but in your case I'm making an exception. I later heard from the mayor there. The woman mayor that that was the moment she realized is rose. Brad if it had not voted for her But as I sat there trying to address these men they were like this because someone said can a woman win and I I I tried Well a woman one in Texas so I better women can win here while I'm not running as a woman candidate I'm running as my merits Merits and being accountable. And getting things done like you've no I've done as hadn't been county attorney and finally would wouldn't work now. Last last time I checked half the voters were men so I was just running as a woman. It wouldn't work and they go. I think what that is. It's everyone regardless of who they are or what gender That they want to know that someone has their back and that is how I have done my work and it's been very straightforward concept of being a representative and what I would do as president. You listen to them and you try to get things done. That is why I actually in my Own State the one very clear poll of me versus trump. Were they know who I am. I am eighteen points up on trump eight points more than the vice president. I do better with men than any of the other candidates and I have tended always have a lot of support with men so for me to say on the debate for what I did which you need to dispel thoughts that you have to be the tallest person in the room or the skinniest person in the room are the loudest voice in the room. I think it is a barrier and I think that it is on the two of us that are left on the stage as candidates to dispel that. And you don't always have to talk about it. But men have voted for women. They voted did for Laura Kelly to be governor of Kansas. They voted for Gretchen. Whitmer in Michigan they voted for and those are executive jobs so I lead with those. They have down that and they will do it again but right now. It's a mess of so many candidates they have to understand who they are And so that's that's how I look at it. It's just it's they the men will come around. We focused our foreign affairs questions around the biggest diplomatic challenges of the moment China's handling Hong Kong protests Turkey's Turkey's invasion into Syria against the Kurds who once fought side by side with American troops against Isis and the recent revelations of the Washington Post that the progress Congress and success with the eighteen year Afghanistan war had been mostly fabricated. When I ask you about Afghanistan just did you see the Washington Post story? The showed that for decades civilian and military leaders have been lying to the American public. What did you make a story? So I didn't know everything in that story. We'll start with that But I have said in this campaign very clearly that I think we need to bring our troops out of Afghanistan Those that are being deployed. Now we're not even born When this started and so the answer is to have a president? That doesn't just talk the talk or say it you know when he decides he needs a distraction in the news and say he's going to invite the Taliban to Camp David and then never followed through on the negotiations or as he did two weeks ago announced that he wanted to he was jumpstarting. These negotiations right now and then you find out neither the Ghani Administration or the Taliban even knew he was going to say it. So what I would do If it is not done yet and I hope hope for our country it is that there is some kind of agreement even before I could be the present it but You WanNa have an agreement that as much which is possible. Keeps the democratic reforms in place in Afghanistan that respects the progress that's been made on women's rights and civil rights. You Wanna I have an agreement. Unlike what trump usually does our we're working with our allies and have an agreement that works and would I bring anticipating art. Your questions. Maybe do you leave some troops behind and you could have troops there for counter intelligence and training and things like that but the whole idea is to bring the troops home so this war's been going on for for a long time now and I'm wondering if Congress has done an adequate job of overseeing it now if I oh I well I have repeatedly I have been and I have been frustrated in general with our role in foreign relations nations. I am in the Tim. Kaine camp here And Angus King in a number of others of us that believe you should have an authorization of military force. If you're going in to continue in that we need to revisit that with Some of these engagements. Obviously there are engagements that are would not require choir that But that When you're going to have any kind of with trump started talking about you know sending the ships over to Iran and those kinds of things. I was outspoken on that. I think you you would need that but I think overall the it is time to bring our troops home from Afghanistan. Dan It also save a lot of money. That could be used for many other things. How big a crisis do you think Hong Kong is and if early in your presidency? China were to flood. Hong Kong streets with training would have to flood Hong Kong streets with troops and cracked down violently. What do you think you would do well? First of all again standing taller and working with our allies. I think would be key if you remember how this all started. It was when Carrie Lam Wanted to Get a new law. That would have Allowed the the extradition of political prisoners will all prisoners but including political prisoners. And that's what sparked this She has since backed down on that From that but It just shows that the spark this protests and you've got to allow for these protests in you've gotta push on on civil liberties for people but again I think the best way is to stand with allies something. This president has refused to so many times anytime. There's a choice waist and a moment where he can choose. He stands with dictators over allies or tyrants over innocence he gets us out of these international agreements. And I'm going to give a speech on this at the Foreign Relations Council about some of my ideas about our reasserting American leadership rejoining These international agreements. And do you feel comfortable with the United States. Having nuclear weapons in southern Turkey at this point given wants behavior where I think that we should not push Turkey out of NATO so right now but instead be pushing them. I strongly disagreed with the president's decision to withdraw the one hundred fifty troops from from Syria on the border And everything that has happened after that is really actually quite predictable including the Initial shoul slaughter of occurred to stood with us who you know. We'd promised all these things to and then when they fought on our side and lost like eleven one thousand people. We don't stand up for him so I think that we would want to still keep those strategic nuclear weapons there but it's all the more reason THAT WE WANNA keep deep pushing Turkey and and working with Turkey but at the same time. I don't think we want to give up that Foothold right. There and president trump has made made several unilateral moves in relations to Israel Things like moving the American embassy to Jerusalem. If you took over would you reverse them. As president I am a strong supporter of Israel is still see it as our beacon of democracy in the mid East But I have been I'm horrified by some of the things that trump has done with has eroded support for Israel in the United States And I think has a lessen their security position I would not reverse the embassy change because I've always supported having the embassy there But I do think that some of the things that he did recently When the administration said that the settlements were not against international international law that is in violation of longstanding American policy? And if we truly want to Build support for this democracy. He than we have to restart these negotiations for a two state solution. Which I would do when I went to Israel with a number of senators as I went only it was just me and one of their senator? That did this and met with the Palestinians I think that their economic futures important and I would push for two state solution. I will say that I also have voted for see my record for funding for Israel's security. I still think that they are in a really tough neighborhood. And a really really dangerous position and made worse by what trump just did with Syria because now Iran has a foothold there And so one of the things I that I see as this Really high stakes opportunity for a new president is to bring in American support again in a big wait for Israel. And you do that by stopping these Mitch. McConnell divisive votes Making it a wedge issue trying to play politics Instead of looking at what. The challenges are ahead I think that we need to emphasize Israel's historic support for women's rights Working on climate change all of these things that have been lost because of trump's continual effort to use this as a partisan pawn maybe the worst moment of which was when when he tried to when he pushed the prime minister. Who spent all part of this as well to stop to members of Congress from visiting back in May senator Released an extremely ambitious one hundred billion dollar plan to combat drug and alcohol addiction and improve mental healthcare American aircon rates a desk of despair meaning deaths related to overdoses alcohol associated liver cirrhosis and suicides have more than doubled in the past twenty years driven largely by the OPIOID crisis. Senator Klobuchar has spoken about her father's own struggle with alcohol as an inspiration for her solution to this growing problem. You've around one hundred billion dollar plan to address the OPIOID crisis. You talk about with respect to paying for that. One of the things you've called for is a master opioid settlement. Can you talk about how you you would ensure that that money gets put to the right use with a global tobacco settlement for example. We saw a lot of the money got diverted to up state budgets. How do you prevent that from happy? I think you just I just have to across the teased out the Really clear directive and have a president that maybe worked in law for fourteen years Would be the helpful thing Because I know exactly what you're talking about with the tobacco settlement So how I paid for the hundred billion was the eighteen billion closing. The Hedge Fund Lupul pull Was Fourteen it's gone up to eighteen the score. On hundred forty billion from this master settlement which is for opioids or. It's but there's no reason you couldn't use it which hasn't been initiated yet right helpless but if you're the president in these lawsuits are still going on. And you direct your Justice Department armament to make this a major priority and there's so much abuse and there's record evidence of business people at these Pharma companies. Say Oh keep pumping him out. It's like the re does and giving them cruises for incentives. I mean it's an outrageous situation and it was prioritized. Great so you would so this forty billion that then the forty billion from two cents per milligram. VN opioids which The governor here you did I think in New York Anyway I've laid out one hundred billion dollars and I think you have to make this a big party. Bipartisan support support. For this Senator Portman and I and at the time Kellyanne and Sheldon Whitehouse led the initial opioid. Blueprint Bell And I I've done a lot of work in this area. Let's say you get the money. How do you decide which programs to fund? There's been a lot of malfeasance addicted I am. I am pretty obsessed with this of trying to figure out for instance suboxone and is it really working on. This is the drug that you give people to get them off of openness much standard have care now it is it is it was developed. Actually these two doctors in an emergency room in Minnesota who were young and they were on call and they went back and looked fell the records and figure it Out Half the people had no reason to have opioids and that half their town. That's an exaggeration was addicted and they actually developed this treatment method because they didn't really have the facilities acivities to do it from little falls Minnesota so it is a good thing and it helps a lot but there may be other treatments that we should be doing. And there's one other thing. I want to stress here. Is that math crack cocaine. These other drugs especially crack cocaine is still a big addiction and communities of color. Alcoholism is is still there so I think it's really important that the master settlement be used for all forms of addiction. Many of these treatment places. They are not opioids. Only and you're really ripping ripping off certain parts of the country if you don't always if you don't also include them in treatment and then I of course include mental health because it's the only way we're going to get the funding To help with mental health when we've had thirty percent increase in suicides in fifteen years have one final question for you. I'm going to turn to my colleague. Chris what would you fail at as President I am. I like to go out on a limb on a lot of things but I can't predict that I can't predict what I'll fail at because because I am an optimistic yourself you know yourself okay I would fail it not getting enough sleep but you don't want to have that to be too intense or it'll affect your performance I would Fail at probably not balancing everything. I need to balance with my family which I try my best on. I just I don't know because you don't know what's in front of you but what I do know that You learn a lot. When you've had the experiences I have fourteen ears in the private sector and then Eight years managing a local of a local official managing an office of a bunch of lawyers lawyers and doing a good job on it I will I will tell you and then going to the US Senate and being there through three different presidents Being there through that economic Emma crisis and repeatedly when I have been in charge of things whether alone back there in Minnesota or as part of a group I have shown what I I think is a really important quality right now. Which is grace under pressure And I have shown that I can build the trust of people no matter what political party there in at some point I oh I think given that I don't have thirty one million dollars for an ad by right now But I am rising in the polls in In Iowa and some New Hampshire sure I feel like saying maybe people should just get job references from the five million people in my state. They won't all have voted for me But they at least know that I am hard worker that I have people's back that I do the right thing And I think that what you succeed in is much more important right now when we have a president that has failed us so many times times to stress. The optimistic economic agenda to stand your ground When you must and as I run against someone like him to ignore room are when you can But to make clear that when he does really bad things that you call them on it which I've done my entire time in the Senate And yes to even use some humor against this guy because what he does is absurd. I think that's how you beat him. But I think how you beat him is going to directly affect how we cover because if if you just eat by a victory at four in the morning with one St We're not GONNA be able to take on these big challenges we spend all this time talking about. We are not and if you are someone that comes in. That's dividing people. We are not going to be able to govern and bring consensus back in this country and these ideas. I've laid out. I believe they're bold old ideas and we cannot afford to fail. Failure is not an option so that was most of the editorial boards interview with was Senator Klobuchar to read the whole conversation is it ny. TIMES DOT COM backslash endorsement. That's endorsements within if you want to hear what the board had to say about about Senator Klobuchar visit and for look at mid Western candidates appeal. Check out the deliberations episode. It also comes out today. Come back on Monday to hear south. Bend Mayor Air Peop- footage see the choices produced deuce bilateral media. Mitch Bluefin Bali Social Ashley Taylor and Rachel Lightner without from Michel Mason mixing by Lauren Gardner and original music by Allison Leyton Breath special. Thanks to Tyson up from the New York. Times are executive producers are well Malnati's from media and Phoebe Latte from the New York Times. Finally we want to hear from you. Oh please rate and review us on the Apple podcast Sat. It'll help more voters find the show.

president United States Senate Donald Trump Senator Amy Klobuchar Senator Minnesota United States The New York Times Senator McCain Senator McCain Congress vice president executive senator Board President Obama Joe Biden Columbus Ed Harris Middle East
Joe Biden: The Interview

The Choice

49:14 min | 6 months ago

Joe Biden: The Interview

"The New York Times critic's pick to kill a mockingbird is beautiful elegiac satisfying even exhilarating raves. Jesse Green it's the most successful American play in Broadway early. History says sixty minutes rolling. Stone gives mockingbird five stars calling it a landmark production of an American classic and. NPR says it's one of the greatest plays in history history all rise. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mockingbird a new play by Aaron sorkin directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot com and. I'm not saying that I it's guaranteed I win but name me. Nominees taken as many hits from the beginning of them announcing even though I announced late who has taken the hits in. You know you all declare meat not you editorially abroad sense. Declare me dead and guess what I'm GONNA die hi. I'm Katie Kingsbury from the New York Times editorial board and welcome to the choice a a new podcast. The brings you behind closed. Doors and into the exclusive deliberations process around the New York Times. Pick for the twenty twenty presidential candidate in each episode. You'll hear Democratic presidential candidates. Make their pitch as they interview for the biggest job of their career every election year. The board chooses a candidate after closed-door off the record interviews and a lot of internal debate but the stakes are so high twenty twenty and we think voters deserve to hear how we decided on our as the best candidate to Donald Trump. So we're giving you access to these conversations and the debates that followed so you can make the choice for yourself to learn more about how the board works and WHO's on it. Go back and listen to episode of this series. We've trimmed each of these interviews down but if you'd like to read the full transcript you can find them on NY TIMES DOT COM backslash endorsement. That's endorsements an our last interview was the current front runner who undoubtedly has the most name recognition former vice president. Joe Biden big moment here for vice president former Vice President Joe Biden. He just released that announcement when making it official saying he is running for President Delaware elected Joe Biden. It's senator at just twenty. Nine years old he was immediately tapped as promising White House material pundits mapped out the earliest presidential election. He'd be eligible to run in vice president. Biden's first attempt at the White House was in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight when he ran to be the youngest this president since John F. Kennedy at forty five years old but his campaign flamed out fast when he was found to be plagiarizing political speeches. This time around. He's campaigning to be the oldest president. In American history. Running on his six terms of Senator in eight years as Barack Obama's vice president previous presidential campaigns aside Mr Biden has had had one of the most decorated political careers of anyone in the field as chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He played major roles in the contentious Supreme Court. Nominations of Robert Bork. And Clarence Earns Thomas in the Nineteen Ninety S. He helped write and pass. The Violence Against Women Act the first legislation of its kind to put federal resources towards combating domestic and sexual violence. But Mr Biden also wrote and passed the tough on crime laws that have contributed to our era of mass incarceration. He's since walked back his stance and called the crime. Bill quote A big mistake in more recent years however Mr Biden played an active role in the passage of the affordable. Care Act during his time as vice president and like Senator Amy Klobuchar and Peop- Buddha judge edge. Mr Biden is more centrist option in the party advocating for civility in politics and getting things done through a bipartisan strategy. His twenty twenty campaign has had a number of stumbles along the way but many were glass. Voters see him as one of their own we wanted to dig deeper into Mr Biden's policies and some moments on the campaign trail that have given US pause. We apologized for the audio being rough at times we recorded in a glass room overlooking the beautiful Port Authority. Bus Terminal using wireless mics that are great for television but not ideal for podcasting uh-huh and heads up at a few points out the interview. You'll hear a cell phone alert. Go off as Mr Biden has some difficulty. Silencing he had with him semester vice president. We're hoping to ask you a few questions that we haven't really heard you answer on the campaign trail yet. Mister Vice President Why don't you support reparations? As for Black Americans do support reparation black Americans and the best way to get reparations for black Americans and systemic segregation and it's real and it's genuine. I spent my whole career. Doing the first thing I did. As a young councilman lawyer was to fight redlining. And so I think that the reparations argument and debate is worth people investigated in it. But how do you make a judgment in the meantime. There's a lot we have to do right now. Now to deal with the original sin of America which is slavery and so. I think it's much more productive to move quickly on everything from access to education to loans on why in God's name is a situation where you can own a home exact same home on one side of the street which is predominantly black and. You're on the exact home across the street was predominantly weight and your home when we values less than your insurance costs more. It's wrong there's a a whole range of things we can do legislatively now to deal with this stomach. Racism still exists. You said during the September debate when asked about reparation that black parents prince should among other things. Make sure that you have the record player on at night. House specifically should the country confront. Its history of slavery discrimination and Klunder black-americans taking that out of context. But that's okay actually. It wasn't out of context. Okay the idea is that responsibility rests on those who are still engaging oppression to stop what they're doing and pay for what they've done if it's criminal criminal and if it's not criminal pay for it economically and change the law. I remember how much trouble brock cut in. When he said that the parents black parents should take responsibility? That wasn't my. That wasn't my point. My point was to make it clear that there are a number of things. We can do now now to help. Parents who have been disadvantaged as a consequence of lack of opportunity to be able to provide more guidance nsen better guidance from themselves in their families. For example we have One school psychologists for every fifteen hundred seven kids in public schools. It's ridiculous Nicholas. Is there anything that you have changed your mind about related. I would say to your record where you're thinking your personal views on race or for busing or anything over the years on race or Bussey because you know. I think you've all been kind of shocked. How much black support I have and I've never urban shamed of anything I've done? I've fought for the African American community and fought for them. I tire career. I made a big mistake and the criminal justice US decide when I it's easy to forget it now but you know all of a sudden crack was introduced as a great threat to the United States of America and you had medical medical folks that will crack go straight to the brain is going to have this long-term effect so we bought onto the idea. That crack somehow should be punished. Much much more significantly than in fact powder cocaine. Well what it meant was somebody snorting powder in the part of you guys go to. I don't mean you got to me but wealthy neighborhoods if they were to get arrested which they don't in the first place but very get arrested they get a sense of one hundred times less than someone is getting convicted for crack and so from the time we passed that two years after I've been trying to change it and do it brock and I got what a down to a ten to one from one hundred to one. It should be zero but it's had a disproportionate impact on minority communities particularly African American communities. I sorely regret that and we've also learned a lot more about drug abuse overall. We used to deal with it in terms of we thought that men laws was a product of drug. Doug abuse it's the reverse mental illness is the reason for drug abuse. One of the things I had wanted to ask you about. Was You've called for rescheduling marijuana so that scientists can better study. It's therapeutic potential. Virtually all of your opponent's have gone further and actually called for full legalization at the federal level. Can you make the case to me for wide to take more moderate approach. When when it's I think science matters I mean one of the reasons I'm running against the guy running against is you know? Science matters not fiction. When I'm arguing is there have been studies showing that it complicates other problems if you already have a problem with certain drugs and so we should you just studying and decriminalize it but study it and find out? Get the medical community to come up with a final definitive answer as to whether or not it does is causing a does cause other problems then make it clear to people. So that's a place you don't engage in the use of it but many states have already legalized. I get that. But that doesn't mean the sciences. It shouldn't be looked at couldn't you promote the science and legalize it at the federal level in tandem. No why would you promote the science. If the science would say we'd be bad idea to legalize it got to find out the facts first but let me get some straight here. I've argued for some time. Total decriminalization anyone who has a record it should be immediately expunged so when you come to work for New York Times. They ask if you have any problems. You don't any criminal arrest you don't have. I have to say yes because it will be completely expunged it and anyone who is in fact has been serving any time in prison or is in prison or Supreme people are these days is that they immediately be released and the record totally expunge a as the second oldest Democratic candidate. Mr Biden has highlighted some of the generational national gaps in his ability to relate to younger. Voters like millennials. He's even got as far as to say. He had no empathy for their generation's problems. Mounting student loan debt naturally we asked asked him to put that in context. You've expressed very little interest in entertaining. millennials concerns and complaints about the problems that they face whether it's student debts. Well you have said I have no empathy for its. Give me a break in terms of like things that they've been concerned about with the way in which the older generations have more or less made things worse for them as generation. So do you think that millennials have less of a burden. It's a straight okay. When I said I had? No sympathy about was made a commencement speech. I don't know which was either Yale or Harvard than back to back. Two years and the study came out showing that although there was the most generous most progressive most involved generation ration- history the best educated which I pay tribute to because I have three granddaughters are all part of that in. My daughter is a social worker. The master's degree doing great work etcetera. Cetera it also said something like only sixteen percent of young millennials would in fact run for public office so I was at a university and they I said well why should we get involved all dirty so I want to hear it. Don't wind me. I got the same lecture in one thousand nine hundred seventy you too. When I was in the middle of the Vietnam War where I got? The same thing was told in one thousand nine hundred sixty five when I got involved the civil rights movement. I don't get involved but you gotta get ball. Some could argue that. You're sort of painting a broad. Brush of the millennials. You have the I was answering questions. The question was why. Why should I get involved? I said because it's your responsibility. You have a responsibility. So do you think that This younger generation as a whole is not participating enough and they don't have the same burdens as previous generations. Know what's happening is awaken. The the point I always make is if in fact the generation between eighteen and thirty voting the same percents above thirty there would have been five point two million more votes cast last year. And we wouldn't have this president we have we wouldn't have it. They sat home then getting ball. And I hi come from you. Don't say well that's your choice. That's okay don't lecture me on responsibility. Not You don't have in lecture me on responsibility and did not participate when I got involved it was like dropout goad haight. Asbury don't get involved literally across the board you don't trust anybody over thirty and all of a sudden got so damn bad. A generation set enough enough. We got involved and we rand look. There's two generations getting gazed one by inspirational people like the John. Kennedy's the world other by really bad presidents. Really bad add things that are happening. This guy is engaging everywhere I go everywhere I go. There's more and more and more young people everywhere you were I go. I talked about the need for them to getting AIDS and by the way I do as well. With those millennials as anybody else does a percentage Bernie he does the best the old guy like me he does the best. And I'm the only one has support across the spectrum of every single element of Democratic Party. So I mean this idea. I'm anti millennial I mean I didn't say that but I didn't say you said it. But the implication is I don't care much about her like the Devil Obama they are the future. You just called yourself the old guy. Jimmy Carter has said that he wouldn't be up for the job of the presidency at age. Eighty he's obviously experienced experienced the job. How do you respond to comments like that? Are you too old to be running for president. Watch me all this stuff about lack of energy. Come the bus of me sixteen hours a day ten days in a row come to me. Do you have an exercise routine every morning. What is it do three things? I liked treadmill and I lift. When when you get it to the White House you get a medical doctor gets assigned to you and one of them was a colonel in the United States Army? Who when I had a separated shoulder and I ended up having an operation seven screws putting the shoulder to put it back together and doing therapy and he sends me every morning every morning exercise routine and I do it every morning and not bad shape? Do you think it's legitimate. For voters to be concerned about people in their late seventies running shoe highest office. It's not just like his agenda for people to ask about whether you're mature enough when you're thirty five. I'm not joking I mean I went through the same thing when I'm twenty nine years years old. Well wait a minute you old enough and so it's totally legitimate so we have a thirty five year old limit. Should we have one at the top end to be a top line because is why would you show me where it's been a problem. President Reagan at Constitutional Look is and think you guys are engaged. Ageism they're not look. Okay decide I. I don't think they're the voters will be able to make a judgment. You'll make a judgment whether or not you think I have all my cognitive capability. I'm physically capable blue and I have the energy to do the job so now your message as one. You're running on experience a restoration of sanity invocations of the Obama era. So so how do you convince younger voters that you're the person to help move the party into the future. My message isn't that I'm going to return to the obamacare. My message is twofold one. I think we'd all agree it's going to inherit a divided nation and secondly going to inherit a world in disarray. I believe that my experience in both those areas better equipped than anybody running either party to deal with both those issues. I I have a record where I have gotten big things done. I've been able to work with the opposition. I've been able to work not all the time I haven't haven't been able to have them join. I've gone out and beaten them now. Went into twenty four states and I went into the red states and I wonder the Purple States and we won some of you suggested when I said we went back forty one seats there goes biding. We won forty one seats because I was convinced that the American people understood finally what they didn't understand before they didn't know what obamacare was then. Obama did it. They didn't even know why they had it. They weren't even sure all of a sudden Starts getting taken away. They're aware of it. When I'm president I'm inherited in different world than Baraka Herod but some of the things that were left on the table or the same wjm kind of massive things are going to have to be dealt with for example? We've got a world in disarray. Who's going to be able to stand on the stage? The first day in command the respect the world leaders. I think I'm the only one has that experience that experience matters. I'll deal with different problems. My job will be not to go back to the old days. But be able to reestablish Our alliances keep the world from falling apart keep NATO from disintegrated etcetera the same way for example climate. Change I'm one of the guys that put that climate change deal together but requires someone who the rest of the world's going to respect when they ask them to come the United States one hundred some one hundred eighty two hundred and sit down and say we have to up the ante now. The politics has changed in terms of what is actually actually happening in the environment. After nearly fifty years in politics Mr Biden has had his fair share of political baggage and in the twenty twenty political climate climate dot baggage has drawn criticism. One of the things you have to deal with. In addition to just questions about basic age is as long as you've been in public life you have baggage engage and you've had in debates a couple of times you've had a little trouble answering for positions that you held decades ago which I think is a bit ridiculous that that's that's an issue but those questions aren't going to go away so have you had time to figure out a strategy for just answering kind of the basic approach to this issue is yes if you notice they hit me on every single thing I could be hit on so far. That's the good news. Every aspect of my record period period has been hit by trump and by the people running it. And I'm a big boy. My Dad used to have an expression never complain. Never explain and so and guess what I'm still leading in all the polls. Okay that's number one number two if you take a look and what what They call these debates. They're not debates. There's thirty to forty five seconds assertions because what comes to me all the time is the attack I get to speak but I get to speak in response to an attack and one of the things that I have to admit to you. I've had difficulty accommodating. Is this how do you turn to someone who is attacking you on something that I know they know is not true and do it in a way. That doesn't look like you're being dismissive particularly if it's a person of color or if it's a it's a woman and so I've had to learn how to deal with breath I mean look you have a situation where when I was attacked on Bussey signals. Now the woman attack me this exact same position. I have exact exact no different one of the most controversial positions Mr Biden has held has been his stance on the Hyde amendment. This amendment is a law that prohibits medicaid coverage for abortions except in the case of rape incest or when a pregnancy poses a threat to the patient's life and wanted to better understand understand the former vice president's position and what he would do as president protect them Roe V. Wade Mr Vice President. I'd love to ask you about reproductive rates so I think it's fair to say that this is a pretty extraordinary moment for reproductive rates. They're more threatened than they probably have been since Roy was passed. And I think that there's a lot of people who question whether you will go on the offensive for reproductive rights as much as it's going to be necessary with with Roe v Wade under threat given the fact that you are pro choice certainly but you switched your position on hide only just recently and for instance you also originally argued for greater exemptions to the contraception mandate and Obamacare. And so. I think there's some concern out there you didn't no. I was in the opposite side of that. There is a lot of reporting from the time that said that you were arguing. I think it was a political strategy rate that it might be read as trampling on religious religious freedom but that's not cracked no was not correct. Is the idea that the argument was what what the president put out initially was different than what ended up mean finally the final position on and the the question was would I defend the president. I get it I can explain high placed first first of all. Everybody's voted for high every single person running out it but they all this idea. This is such a principle thing. It's principle I I. Most of the party has been in favor of overturning. No I understand. I understand the question directly. I thought that when there were reasonable alternatives and funding mechanisms that did not deny women the opportunity to take advantage of their constitutional right under Roe V. Wade Mendibai the by Casey that in fact it was okay to not make other people who had strong views different than that pay for it but when in fact we decided that we were going to move to which I've wanted to a long time ago and everybody has is to have basically universal healthcare. That option option is eliminated is not available. If it's basically universal healthcare you cannot say that poor women are now going to be covered by Medicaid and or my plan and Medicare option in of to obamacare and then expected. There's going to be mechanisms by. I wish they could still get the kind of help. They got through private contributions and planned parenthood. which rated me one hundred percent? And so. That's that's why I changed the position President. Though the thing is under the Hyde amendment it has been the case since nineteen seventy six that ah women who are Medicaid. Women who are in the armed services and other women have not had access to reproductive health. Care if they can't afford it so I guess I don't understand stand how it is that by changing the healthcare plan that JJ healthcare plan. That's the only vehicle people actually going to have because people aren't spending the the money on supporting these other. Alternatives are available for people. That's what's changed and look what the states have done. There's been all out attack. But if you're saying back US US and they have not had access. Poor women specifically have not had access since nineteen seventy six. They haven't had they have had access to other means by which they could get the help not as near many women that hasn't been the case woman have suffered women have died. I don't disagree with you if you can't afford to have have the procedure than they were. Before would exist words. There is vehicles by which there were organizations that provide. It's a procedure for for free. They didn't need to pay for it. But when you make it all federal program that makes it impossible. Here's the deal if in fact and I've said this for a while if in fact this court comes on all these Jacuzzi laws that are being passed and what's happening now is all designed to go to the Supreme Surpreme Court and the hope. Supreme Court will in fact by five to four decision rule against Roe v Wade and or amended some way as it relates to Casey and if that would occur her I will immediately send the United States Congress legislative legislative requirement legislating and codifying Roe v Wade as commended by Casey and put it in the law. Would you give us any names of people that you might consider to nominate to the court. No but there are at least a half a dozen doesn't I've already gone through and people have gone through in the past and who are available now. Do you think you do that. You know will happen well. Donald trump trump did it in two thousand sixteen and a not your true. There's been a criticism of the Democrats and people on the left in general that they don't get the significance of the court to the country and to the policies of the country and I think what Donald Trump understood and it seemed to work for him was that by signifying whom he would choose. It made a difference to a a lot of voters. Would you consider doing that. At least one person I would choose one names. No names kind of curious. What kind of person? What are you looking for the supreme they have to have an expansive you? The constitution recognize the right to privacy on numerous rights exist in the constitution not the federalist society view that there. If it's not listed doesn't exist and they have to be if they acknowledged there are numerous rights and a right to privacy in the constitution of number of the ninth amendment. Then in fact that means means I know they will in fact support Roe v way. They'll support a woman's right to choose in a whole range of other things that relate to individual personal rights that is critical. I've live written about it extensively. I've writ large articles about it. I presided over more judges. More Supreme Court nominees than anybody else has look at the people I supported. I'd look at the the philosophy of the judge background and their judicial temperament whether or not they have the temperament to be in the court and there are a number of really really qualified. People out there and must tell you my overall predilection would be to look for and put more women on the court because it's part of getting down through the cultural morass here because unless we have courts look like the public people lack confidence in them saying they want to change culture. I think going back to the young people for a moment. I think a lot of them are having trouble believing that as long long as you've been in Washington DC that you actually do want to change the culture. Because you've had a lot of time in had changed the culture. I wrote the Act. I also the guy that made sure slogan a slogan on Milosevic got tried as a war criminal. I'm also the guy who went in and got one hundred fifty thousand troops out of Iraq. I've done a lot of things that in fact act are progressive very progressive. And what. I'm proposing dentist thing I find interesting is that we talk about whether or not my program is progressive soon. I'm able to pass what I'm talking about. My administration will go down here most progressive administrations in American history because we're talking about fundamental changes in the environment fundamental change in dealing with healthcare fundamental change in dealing with education. And it's real. And if Mitch McConnell is still in charge of the Senate how will you get those. Thanks past. Takes me to this next one. The next president of the united the nominee has to be able to win in states. That in fact are up for grabs grabs and we can win. I'm beating trump in Texas Florida North Carolina Georgia and all those Midwestern states which I will win a walk but we have to be able to if we do not engage nationally in the states. Where there's a chance to win a house member or senator or change the legislative body? We we're not doing our job. Think about all the times and there was real change take place. The presidents have not only gotten elected they brought a long democratic majorities ladies. We have to win back the Senate we have to win and we can. We can. And so what. I think respectfully people are going to have to consider. You're is okay who among the candidates will enhance the prospect we can senate seat in Texas who among the respective candidates going to hand too early Georgia and two thousand and three in December. Wesley Clark was the leading winning the polls come on fair okay. Wesley Car I know West S.. He's a good guy I've been consistently leading in the polls after taking all the hits. Go down and everybody was hit me out. They come back. I mean I don't mean it's guaranteed but look at all the data and so I'm not saying that is guaranteed I win but naming a nominee is taken as many hits from the beginning of them announcing even I announced late who has taken the hits. You all declare me not you. Editorially and abroad sense. Declare Me Dad and guess what I ain't dead and I'm not GonNa die this resident. Can I follow up on politically. What do you think you could accomplish now after even more years of partisanship with Mitch? McConnell what Mitch. McConnell is finding out and a lot of Republicans are that they're going to have a hell of a lot of baggage to carry going into win there on elections look just in Virginia. I can't paint all through Virginia. Look are we just want to Kentucky. I can't paint in Kentucky. You all were saying we can't win. That governor set in Kentucky. I'm pretty good at this knowing where to go. My my point is I can't guarantee anything but I can guarantee that I know how to campaign to help people win and in all those states. We're talking about the Democrat who they most would rather have run in their state to help them raise money and get votes. It's me that could change but at the moment think about it. Do you think that name the other candidates who's GonNa go in North Carolina and help that candidate win is going to be value added. And don't tell me I shouldn't say don't tell me I'm being the fact is if you take a look it matters who is at the top of the ticket. It matters as the resources. They have speaking of those other candidates. Several of them have proposed major structural reforms to our government to our democracy. These include abolishing the electoral college edge expanding. The size of the Supreme Court setting term limits for justices abolishing the legislative filibuster. which if any of these you support none why not? Because is that. Structural Change Requires Constitutional amendments. It grazes problems that are more damaging than the problem exists. We're in a situation where the reason they gave judges lifetime. Tenure you know and you think with a legislative filibuster in place even if you control the Senate that you're going to move any of your agenda. Yes how because there's a lot of thinks people agree on. There's two things one is that there are number of areas where you can reach consensus that relate to things like cancer and healthcare and whole range of things I think we can reach consensus on that and get passed without changing the filibuster rule the other areas. Where if you were to change the rule first of all if you couldn't get it changed if you can't get sixty votes you're gonNA amend the Constitution on judicial independence is kind of a stretch and what I love hearing my colleagues say that I'm running with saying well I'm going to by executive order? My mother who died left them boss. We have three branches of government agree. And that's why I'm wondering how you're planning to do do this with you. had a front row seat to Republican opposition in the Obama Administration and other things. That like tell you what I was able to get. Every Democrat to vote on the floor to make sure we passed obamacare. OBAMACARE opponents want to change. SURE THEY WANNA change but they don't want to eliminate it WHO's out there saying I'm going to get rid of it the ones who want to change it. They're saying look. I know I can't get mine done for three four five ten years in the meantime what are you GonNa do. I'M GONNA take Biden's plan in the meantime I'm GonNa Expand Obamacare. Come on look part at this is what can reasonably be done. That fundamentally changes the dynamic that everybody has access to adequate healthcare and the fastest quickest and most extensive is a way to do that is my plan to take obamacare. Further subsidizing to the tune of another seven hundred fifty billion dollars over ten years at a public option Shen provide for that for anybody allow one hundred and sixty million Americans who seem to like their hard negotiated healthcare. Keep it if they want it. They don't want it they can buy in and or if they don't have the money they automatically are are admitted into bitcoin. Public option plan has a lot of promising features. But it's still quite a heavy. Lift the the option that was attached to the affordable care act did not get through the Senate. What's different this time? Gigantic different and yours is much more ambitious than that early thirties. And I'm glad you erase erase it. Two things one every Democratic president since Roosevelt tried to do with Barack cut gun and it was a really heavy lift to get it done it was is a gigantic step forward but even when it got done the arguments I can say this now publicly is between Barack and I say take a victory Latman. We got to let people know we got to let people know what was done because they don't know it. They're certainly more public support for the affordable. Care Act. Now I think I think people came to realize how it was because they tried to take it away but it's still a heavy lift and industry is going to be heavily opposed to it. You're still going to have to fight a battle-scarred I don't care about what you're planning for that moment. Planets have always done and that is be able to convince people. I've been pretty good at it. I find it interesting. My opposition says yes. It's true Joe was put together more bipartisan agreements. In anybody Joe is but that was the old days. It was three years ago with regard guard to for example the cures act which came up after we were. He was elected in two weeks before I got sworn in convincing three hundred ninety eight folks in the house to vote for it when initially started with one hundred nineteen as well as what it get. eighty-nine Senators Ninety senators. Don't home the exact number when it started off with forty the eight. It's called persuasion. Presents are supposed to be able to persuade and what's happening now is everybody looked. Carney shows gone through town once and they found Out there's no P under any of the three shells it's coming back again and people are going. Oh I didn't know that you mean to tell me they did. This did that. Part of it is the president. God Love Them. Rock had everything land on his desk locus. I mean everything. Look what's happened and we were about to go into a major major depression. I remember getting chastise because I said this is the greatest recession in the history of the nation short of depression binds it was at this point in the series. You may have noticed. We like to ask the candidates more personal questions including who has broken your heart. We do this to get a better sense of who they are off the debate. Stage part of the job of president requires a humanity that can't be measured by career experience and policy plans. Joe Biden's life has also been shrouded in personal tragedy just weeks before entering the Senate. His first wife and daughter were killed in car accident during his second term as vice president his son. Beau an Iraq war veteran and former Delaware Attorney General data brain cancer at just age. Forty six asking who has broken your heart to someone. Like Joe Biden was somewhat of a Campbell has broken my heart. It's not someone who's broken broke my heart. My son died broke my heart when I was unable to do anything about the house. I got a call saying my wife and daughter or dead completely straight with you and how you learned a lesson longtime ago. That was a friend. I had really good friend. We're in highschool trouble guy. But I was always done a block from me. He got an accident leisure drinking and kill the guy who was riding shotgun. The train fellow died. He was hospitalize a long time and I was the only one that would go see him after he was out recovered. I insisted that the guys that we hung around before they bring back they allow him come back into the phone. I remember we were sitting my high school days when you got five guys in a car going home. After whatever we're doing got an argument he turned around. He said something really mean to me title. Remember going home. It hurt me more than anything that happened to me before because I thought this guy was my soulmate. soulmate remember my Dad Sammy. Joey you're always going to be disappointed if you hold people the same standard you hold yourself to going to be disappointed. Don't expect that people are going to The -sarily be prepared to appear in a second additional addition profiles in courage. And that's the only time from that point on. I never let anyone man or woman hurt me you know Idea criticized as you know and even some serious press people who are not be negative with me say biden done. Hold a grudge. While you know that old saying you know seek revenge got to victims. You're one of them. Never done that because it's not worth the effort but I have not been hurt by a woman or a man but what's hurt me is you've been through a lot more through to. It's not just me. I have a cartoon tournament desk. It's about the size of the insert. I guess I was feeling sorry for myself. My Dad was over my home. This was twenty years after the accident. He thought I was just to down. He went up to local. Hallmark store. Came back you know. He sell the things like like this goal frame Ron Glass and a two edge incident from the funny papers. Hagar the horrible. And there's a picture of Hagar and the one standing there in his viking ship had crashed onto the rocks and mass was down horns helmet recharge. Do you want me. God and a voice from Heaven says why not why not you. Why not? What makes me so special? I think some I should be exempt from other people. Do they still have it on my desk. I reprinted for a lot of people you just got to get up. I'm sorry I didn't mean anyway. They're anybody that has any woman or me. Since I've been a high school kid is really hurt me. More from our interview after a quick break to kill Hilla mockingbird is unmissable and unforgettable raves rolling Stone Five Stars The New York Times declared it a critic's pick calling Aaron Sorkin new play beautiful elegiac GIAC satisfying even exhilarating A.. MOCKINGBIRD for our moment sixty minutes says it's the most successful American play in Broadway history. A New York magazine Kazini Calls It a real phenomenon. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mocking bird directed by Bartlett. Cheer tickets at TELECHARGE DOT COM Welcome back to the Detroit. You've campaigned on your ability to handle a crisis. If China were to send troops and tanks into Hong Kong to violently crackdown on on peaceful protesters. How would you handle that? I do is go to the United Nations. I would induce resolutions to condemn them for through their actions. I would in fact try to reestablish the kind of relationship we left we had with Japan South Korea Indonesia and Australia I would move. American worships into the region like we were trying to do to take sixty percent none of our fleet and have it in Asia to make it clear to him that he in fact is not going to be able to go any further that. There's a price to pay. If you were to do that. I would do the same thing I did. When he set up the zone and I went over to meet with him? And I said you gotta just understand. We're not he said you what expecting to do. Take it down. I said No. But we're going to fly through it. We flew fifty three Rd fifteen through it may clear. We're not playing that game. We are not going to do it and I would expend the time doing what we've absolutely shredded. I would get the rest of our allies in the world to join us in dealing with sanctions against China. We make fifteen percent of the world's economy there's another forty five percent that our allies that we have dissed already they're wondering who the hell where we are. I would try to put together a coalition and I wouldn't fact make it clear what I said to him and my private meat is been public. We're a Pacific power. He said why. Do you say that I said because we are Pacific power and you would have never had the economic stability you were able to accomplish but for the fact we we. The United States kept the peace. I would make it very clear. There are going to be a price to pay in terms of economy and in terms of the access to other opportunities to China. Badly needs. Look we always talk about China and is an eight hundred pound gorilla. What they're doing China has more problems than we could ever contemplate? They don't have enough water. They're talking about close to a trillion dollar project. Did you to turn rivers around forty percent to forty five percent of the land is blue with cadmium they cannot produce crops. They are out now deciding that they're in a position where they have a million dollars in essentially jail reeducation camps in the West. They're in a situation where they're having trouble figuring out. How do they hold on? LET'S DEBATE NERI without getting into conflict with India. They have a lot of problems a lot of problems. We should be clear that we're not GONNA do anything to accommodate what they're doing and make it much more difficult for them to engage in how they proceed. It requires diplomacy requires a show of our resolve that this is where where it stops and it raises a big question about what to do after that. We'll see what happens. Some of said that a move like that against Hong Kong would also threaten Taiwan on east. DC Why do I absolutely do think he could and I think it will do the opposite on Taiwan. I think the Taiwanese government will move to try to be more combative. Uh with China than it was before. Because that's all he talked to me about. I've spent more time. Allegedly with Xi Jinping than any world leader has before we left office just because the president wanted me to get to know him he was the vice. President I was vice. President wasn't appropriate the president so tell me the State Department I twenty five hours a private dinners with him. He's not a stupid foul but he also they're not a democratic small deep bone in his body and ask questions like you really control your military. Do you hitting controlling military. The President's Party control military. Do you really do governors have any power. They don't let me power. That's why they're an axiom big chunks. They have no independent authority. Do anything what is your national security. What's the National Security Council? Do Minh these are the questions. Shoot Joe Biden has been a vocal opponent to facebook and their resistance to fact check ads. He himself has been the victim of false ads on the social network mark as we grow in further on his approach to dealing with big tech. You'll hear Mr Biden. Refer to section two thirty of the Communications Decency Act Section two thirties a law that axes the limited liability shield that Internet platforms like facebook. Have benefited from since Nineteen ninety-six. October here campaign sent a letter to facebook regarding an ad. The falsely claimed that you'd blackmailed Ukrainian officials and not investigate your son. I'm curious did that experience dealing with facebook and their power. Our did that change the way that you see the power of tech platforms right now. I've never been a fan of facebook as you probably know. I've never been a big Zuckerberg Fan. I think he's a real problem. He knows better. And you know from my perspective. I've been in the view that not only we should be worried about the concentration of power are we should be worrying about the lack of privacy and then being exempt which you're not exempt. You can't write something you know to be false and being exempt from being sued. But he can't the idea that's Tech Company is section two thirty should be revoked immediately should be revoked number one for for Zuckerberg and other platforms have pretty foundational love of the modern. That's right exactly right and it should be revoked. It should be revoked because it is not merely an internet company. It is propagating falsehoods. They know to be false and we should be setting standards not unlike the Europeans doing relative to privacy. You guys still have editors I'm sitting with them not a joke. There is no editorial impact at all on facebook. None none whatsoever. It's irresponsible. Aw It's totally irresponsible. If there's proven harm that that facebook has done should someone like Mark Zuckerberg be submitted to criminal penalties. Perhaps he should be submitted to civil liability in his company to civilize. Billy just like you would be here at the New York Times whether where he engaged in something that amount to collusion that in fact caused harm that would in fact be equal to a criminal offence. That's a different issue. That's possible that's possible. Could Happen Zuckerberg finally took down those ads. That Russia was running. All those botts about me. They're no longer being run. He's getting paid a lot of money to put him up. I learned three things number. One footing done mommy to be president number. Two Kim Jong Il thinks I should be beaten to death like a rabid dog and three this president United States is spending millions of dollars to try to keep me from being the nominee. I wonder why so that was most of the Royal Boards Interview Review with former Vice President Joe Biden to read the full conversation visit. NY TIMES DOT COM backslash endorsement. That's endorsements with an if you want to hear what the board thought. It was Biden for an explanation of that Hyde amendment argument. We got in to check out. Today's deliberation episode. SMART facilities are less and it's a big one will weigh the pros Rosenbaum's of every candidate and decide we will endorse. You can't wait to share with you. The choices produced by ATWILL media. Mitch Bluestone Molly Socia- Ashley Taylor and Rachel Lightner with help from Michel Mason mixing by Lauren Gardner Original Music by Allison Leyton Brown special. Thanks to Tyson Evans from the New York. Times are executive producers are Willnot from atwill media and Phoebe Latte from the New York Times types. Finally we want to hear from you. Please rate and review us on the apple podcasts. At it'll help more voters find the show.

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Pete Buttigieg: The Interview

The Choice

52:40 min | 6 months ago

Pete Buttigieg: The Interview

"The New York Times critic's pick to kill a mockingbird is beautiful elegiac satisfying even exhilarating raves. Jesse Green it's the most successful American play in Broadway. History says sixty minutes rolling. Stone gives mockingbird five stars calling it a landmark production of an American classic and. NPR says it's one of the greatest plays in history all rise. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's Tequila mockingbird a new play by Aaron sorkin directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot com while I may not be as a motive sometimes about my sense of anger or frustration or injustice and I would argue that some people are given more room to be a motive than others. I would not be doing any of this if I were not propelled by level of passion. I'm Katie Kingsbury. From The New York Times editorial board and welcome to the choice. A new podcast asked brings you behind closed. Doors and into the exclusive deliberations process around the New York Times. Pick the two thousand presidential candidate in each episode. You'll hear Democratic presidential candidate make their pitch as they interview the biggest job of their career every election year. The board chooses a candidate after closed door off the record interviews and a lot of internal debate but the stakes so high in two thousand twenty and we think voters deserve to hear how we decided our pick as the best candidate to Donald Trump. So we're giving you access to these these conversations and the debates that followed so you can make the choice for yourself to learn more about how the board works and WHO's on it. Go back and listen to episode one of the series. We've trimmed each of these interviews down but if you'd like to read the full transcript you can find them on NY TIMES DOT COM backslash endorsement. That's that's endorsements with an APP from the Minnesota senator to the mayor from Indiana people. Digit was the next candidate to sit down with us on a South Bend. Indiana and I am running for president. He's the Eighteenth Democrat to join in already crowded field for some. He's already the party's new hope to win back the heartland at thirty seven years old mayor Pete may be the youngest candidate in the field but after two terms as mayor of the college town South Bend Indiana he actually has more governing experience than some of his opponents. Mister Buda Jewish took a leave of absence from his post as mayor to serve in Afghanistan as an intelligence officer in the naval reserves. Making him one of two veterans running. WHY Representative Tulsi? Gabbard is the other but before becoming a public servant Mr Buddhism which worked for the management consulting firm McKinsey which is no for some questionable clients and practices. He presented his time there. Ariza kind of capitalist credential. That gave him quote real world experience and distinguishes him from his more democratic socialist rivals but McKinsey consulted for the federal the agency ice on the logistics of it's cruel crackdown on immigrants and worked with other brutal and corrupt governments like China Russia and Saudi Arabia. They reportedly advised is purdue Pharma on how to quote Turbo Charge opioid sales nor involved in advising a Canadian grocery store chain to inflate the price of bread until December. The mayor had not been forthcoming about his experience at McKinsey. So that's where we knew we had to start. We apologize for the Audio being rough at times we recorded in a glass room overlooking looking beautiful port authority. Bus Terminal using wireless mics that are great for television but not ideal for podcasting. Thank you for coming so we have heard you obviously talk about healthcare and climate and the Middle East to lot in the debate. So we're going to try to ask you some questions. We haven't heard you answer in the past and you will be shocked to hear that we'd like to start with your time at McKinsey You graduated from Oxford with sterling credentials. You could have pursued any number of career pass from there including the a choice you ultimately made to join the military. Can you walk us through. Why you decided to go to Mackenzie from there? So the biggest thing was that I had a great academic education but was beginning to feel that there wasn't as much real world experience mixed in with it and that In particular earlier I was eager to do as many things as I could touching as many fields as I could And understand business in particular but how people and money and goods move around the world and how that works so you just didn't want to make a lot of money. I definitely noticed the paycheck and that was important to I needed to make a living Yeah Ah I'M NOT GONNA pretend that that wasn't on my mind to we'd like to talk about some of those real world experiences so one of the companies you worked for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan you. You said you were analyzing costs there. And after you completed that project the company moved ahead with hundreds of layoffs and rate increases. Did you understand that. What you are doing is a McKinsey Consultant Company that you were working to prepare for layoffs and price increases? I had nothing to do with premiums prices fees or anything like that. Mostly what what. My team was looking at was overhead. There's no way to know the relationship between analysis. I didn't two thousand seven and and decisions they made in two thousand nine But certainly our focus was making sure that cost was under control there surely understood. Why a company like that would hire McKinsey Kinsey to come in? How do you mean when companies hire consultants? They're usually trying to reduce their costs right. I think that's the only cost cutting study. I did out of all my time at Mckinsey so I'm not sure it's accurate to say that that's what most consulting work is so surprised you in that resulted in layoffs and price increases. That didn't seem like they would have done if you had had that information I wasn't following news out of Michigan in two thousand nine so a found that out since But yeah I'm not surprised. Christ I mean if if new organization needs to cut costs then that can involve layoffs another of your clients Lob Laws The grocery chain has since Said said that it was involved in the price-fixing of bread During the time that you were analyzing grocery prices for them curious I just. Did you analyze the price of bread for them. Is that part of arraignment not in any detail. So basically the way my job worked was they have about fifty thousand items that they sold and I was creating then crunching database the base. And what we would do. We would figure out based on a years worth sales if they tried to cut a certain percent off their prices across a certain number of hundreds of stores with the impact of that be so I've bread was probably one of the UPC codes in there But I didn't pay attention to one product over another When you were working at McKinsey did you understand The company's purpose to be exclusively maximizing its own profitability. Did you understand the purpose of the companies you worked for to be exclusively was leading maximize their profitability well many of my clients is you know were public sector and nonprofit so obviously their function shorts those buildings Eh but yes I worked for a company a for profit company. Do you think that should be the sole mission of a corporation to maximize profitability. I think that there's something to be said for the dialogue. That's happening with for example. What's going on in the Business Roundtable but also this is where policy we need to come in? We can't expect corporate America to spontaneously change what it is about without imposing different in kinds of left and right boundaries and to me where the public sector and the function of regulation meets what private companies do is precisely to set up those kinds of boundaries. So I welcome anytime. A company undertakes you know what is called corporate social responsibility ability charitable activity or other factors and what they care about have been very interested to see the development of things like Be Cork's which has been a big conversation? Asian especially around South Bend. Actually because one of the pioneering was a company called better world books that that grew up around Notre Dame but I also don't think we should be naive about how corporations behave unless they are regulated to ensure that their profit seeking activities. Don't 'cause are you have criticized some of Mackenzie's more recent engagements with clients. Do you think that something fundamental has changed about the company since you left. It's difficult from the outside looking in to gauge whether this reflects some kind of systemic shift or whether they just have a failure in terms of their guardrails when I was there there was a lot of talk about values firm values. So you would hear a lot about a certain kind of ethic. But it was always about putting the client's interest I will you didn't hear as much about Whether what the client was doing had moral consequences that the firm didn't WanNA touch. I believe I remember the decision not to serve. Tobacco had been made by the time. I was there But my point is there seems to be a problem there with assessing what they want to be associated with definitely with the ice work with the Saudi work. We're just say this is a company. That's good at helping clients meet objectives but some of those objectives are not something we want anything to do with and I think they need to step back and reassess what kind of client work they should take on him first. Place the so you have portrayal of the work that you did for Mackenzie like many analysts in junior staffers at consulting work mainly crunching data and making powerpoint presentation in shuffling paper. More or less. Of course there are also junior your consultants and contractors who go do government work like Edward Snowden reality winner who see something that they think is wrongdoing and speak up keep telling us your opinion of Mr Snowden and MS winners actions. Well I think that we ought to have whistle blower protections so the folks like at that or not forced to choose between Maintaining classified information and speaking about wrongdoing. And it may. Well be the case. Ace that we're seeing the whistle blower concept work in the way in which the current Ukraine process investigation came about. Say are you thinking of Edward Snowden as a whistle blower Not necessarily I think he could have been if that framework existed Instead I think of him as somebody who doubles classified information next we wanted to ask Mr Brundige about his struggle to gain traction among black voters specifically the fumbling of failing his Douglas Plan to address racist systems in America. Erica it covers. Criminal Justice Reform Public Health Care Education and more. His campaign began promoting a list of prominent black supporters from South Carolina. As endorsing this plan plan written in a way that implies support for his candidacy they didn't the plan was publicized on his campaign website with a stock photo of a Kenyan woman in a child. They didn't go over. Well Mr Mayor. Can you explain the mistakes that were made around your Douglas Plan. Why did your campaign falsely claimed support from black black leaders and then use token izing stock photos? Can you just talk about how that happened. So my understanding is that No false statement has ever been made about somebody support for the plan. My understanding is that there were miscommunication about the public roll out of people's names all of whom had indicated at some point support for the plan. But not all of whom had reconfirmed having their names attached to that so that was a process mistake. Obviously that led to changes in how we communicate with supporters and people that were in dialogue with about our policies. I don't know as much about the stock photo I think it was on the website until September I know that the vendor who was involved in running that part of the website or adding that kind of imagery has not been with the campaign for a while And obviously sleep. That was a mistake. How can you win the Democratic nomination let alone the presidency without the support of black voters? And what do you make of the lack support for your campaign from that community so far well I believe first of all that. We're earning support from black voters I became mayor and was reelected as mayor largely because of support from every constituency including the black community in my city and I believe that it is a percentage of black citizens tipped about twenty five percents and I carry it every district including the minority majority districts in our city in primaries and generals both times and I believe I believe that anyone who proposes to be the president ought to be a president for everybody and also in particular given what African Americans are up against in the United States. Today that The message edge of the Democratic Party needs to be one that speaks to black voters where they are and it's one of the reasons why we're being very intentional about that now. I don't WanNA plunge in on polling numbers but the last couple rounds that came back suggested that the way that I'm viewed among black voters is roughly the same in terms of the proportions as among white voters but far more black voters. Say They don't know me or don't have an opinion and I think part of this reflects the fact is certainly something. I hear from a lot of black voters that folks feel not only abused by the Republican party but often taken for granted by the Democratic Party and so the trust that you can build through quantity time through longevity is very important. I don't have the kind of longevity that that Obviously some of our come stressful the substance of what we have to offer. I'm really proud of what's in the Douglas Plant. It's been praised as the most comprehensive plan on dealing was systemic inequality put forward by presidential candidate. Not Of course because I sat in a room and thought up all these brilliant ideas but because we had a lot of conversation and a lot of dialogue and fit our values to a plan to move forward but I also think before a lot of folks care. What's in your plan? They need to know what's in your heart and I'm working and not just traditional campaign formats big speeches and TV appearances but also we've been doing more and more quiet and smaller engagements are recent tour. The South for example had a lot of conversations that were between twenty and fifty people. Some of them very targeted around policy issue like health equity or minority entrepreneurship. Some of the more about making sure that I was speaking to and hearing from folks who'd been overlooked so so we're in South Carolina for example we were with a almost all black democratic group in Allendale County. This is the early President Presidential Primary State. Right they hadn't seen a presidential candidate more than a decade and you could feel the extent to which they felt overlooked and and those kinds of engagements I think are very important to. It's not just about obviously our goal to win. It's about deserving to win your plans for tackling income inequality quality are not quite as detailed as some of the other candidates you know for example your policies on an inclusive economy. Say Somewhat vaguely that. You're going to knock down unfair barriers to entrepreneurship. What would that look like? So first of all. We know that there are challenges to access to credit In fact virtually every small Wall African American owned business that I visited in this campaign. I asked how'd you get started. How did you get your start up money? And they always say they had to come up with the cash. And that's a pattern. Of course that's borne out on everything from how mom and pop businesses experienced commercial banking to the well documented fact of almost all going to a small handful of people and kinds kinds of people in a certain number of places so there are things we can do about that. One thing we can do is Capitalized CDFI's better community development financial institutions nations. Have much better track record of intern supporting minority entrepreneurship. The way I would do it would be a five X. Cra super-credit for any of the larger institutions to flow funds into CDFI's another thing we can do direct co investment this is part of our Walker Lewis Initiative in businesses led by those who were underrepresented Part of it is looking at Other things that need to be reformed in credit scoring and credit systems generally and then part of it is a little Deeper in the chain of cause and effect act right where we know how much of the wealth in this country is inherited not just among the ultra wealthy in general shark and how that flows through Ooh the implications for homeownership and access to education and health and all the other things that become barriers to folks being able to the empowered economically as they grow up despite being one of two millennial candidates in the race Tulsi Gabbard to see other. Mr Budaj draws his lowest support from the youngest voters and his best support report from the oldest. A December poll revealed younger more liberal adults. Were much less likely than their older counterparts described Budaj as liberal. Meanwhile November remember poll showed he has the highest net ability among Iowa Democratic caucus goers over sixty five. Then there's that whole Mayo. PM Miss Mr Merit. You recently said that the failures of the old normal hope explain how he got to trump. So how how do you plan to sort of dismantle that the old regime because in part one of the issues that I think a lot of especially young people have is that you don't seem nearly as Progressive Ed or as a revolutionary in some ways some of the other candidates and that's something a lot of young people are looking for. So can you explain it a little bit more. First of all what I'm proposing would make me the most progressive president in the lifetime. Not only of young people I mean certainly in the last half century also also say that it matters that we hold together an American majority that is progressive enough that it unlocks possibilities that were not available even ten years ago during the Obama presidents so it took everything that the Democratic Party had just to push through a healthcare reform in the ACA invented by conservatives right And that was a major achievement but that was as far as you could get during the constraints of that time where we are right now is that there is a powerfully large not everybody obviously but powerfully. Large American majority not only do the right thing on areas where Democrats have generally been trusted wages Labour health but also areas where we've on defense like immigration guns holding that majority together is a big part of the task. Go the next president. I'm not just talking about how to win an election about how to govern this country and we need to have enough clarity of vision that we can see that the boldness of an idea is not measured only by how many people can alienate but by what it can get done. So there's always a more extreme solution on offer that sometimes all be competing with but also be very clear that what I'm talking about would make the next next era. What I'm proposing we do would make the next era very different from the one we've been living? How do you convey that to younger voters? How do you counter it or the Mayo Pete? MEMES are you familiar. WanNa well Manas as as I think in a lot of people think is really really gross and there have been teams. This is anyway a they feel strongly about there have been younger people. There's going around called Mayo Pete's and that I think does speak a little bit to the the lack of youth support that you currently hold even compared to those who are significantly more generous interpretation is. It's bland okay. And what and I get the white part. It means that you're Chris the first of all again. I'm trying to look at. How big these ideas? I mean I'm talking about the biggest biggest reform. The American healthcare system we've had since Medicare was invented. I'm talking about a game. Changing transformation on the availability of funds go to college talking about getting our climate carbon neutral by twenty fifty that will test the limits of human capacity and and there will always be some folks say. Healthcare reform isn't real unless you obliterate the entire private industry. College isn't real unless even the childhood billionaire can can go without paying a penny intuition rush climate change thing doesn't count unless it's trillions more dollars than it is and that's just not how I measure the bigness of idea if I can put this question in a slightly different way. You've you've been on the front lines of corporate downsizing you've been on the front lines of corporate price fixing you've been on the front lines are misadventures of our misadventures in foreign in policy you've had direct experience of many of the things that make a lot of young people very angry about the way that this country is operating right now. You don't seem him to embody that anger. So the proposition that I've been on frontlines corporate price fixing is bullshit just to get that out of the way company those fixing bread prices No I worked for consulting company that had a client that may have been involved in fixing or was apparently in a scandal. I was not aware of the Canadian in Bread pricing scandal until last night. Do you feel the anger that many young people feel about the state of course because it destroyed my city. I grew up surrounded by crumbling factories and empty houses. My City lost thirty thousand of its hundred and thirty thousand people largely before I was born so I'm under no illusions about the problems that are present in American capitalism. Listen generally and were unleashed beginning with the Reagan era specifically and while I may not be as a motive sometimes sometimes about my sense of anger or frustration or injustice And I would argue that some people are given more room to be a motive than others. I would not be doing any of this if I were not propelled by a level of passion flip. Let's talk about why I walked away from the private sector in order to go to Indiana to run as a statewide Democratic candidate during the tea. Party wave twenty ten on a platform of defending Barack Obama's economic policy knowing that I would in all likelihood get my ass handed to me. which is what happened but recognizing that the treatment of autoworkers by our incumbent state treasurer in a dispute which very very few people followed but really fired me up showed everything that was wrong about the way that our politicians are corporations Our workers in our communities interact and even though I didn't win as expected also never regretted the fact that even though I spent down All my savings doing it with an income of four hundred fifty bucks months from the navy being what I had during that year so much for this candy dollars right right. I saved them up and then I spent all. This is one of the reasons why I am the by far the least wealthy person running for President President Right now I guess. My point is My decision to take on that fight and subsequently my Decision to serve my hometown at the time that was written off as die propelled by my acute awareness of the things that are wrong. I'm wondering if the the time we have. If you could give specific solutions to say what the government could do to address the growing financial inequities. What can the government could do power the financial industry about the corruption of politics about the corruption of industry itself? I would argue that the proposals life before it on dealing with precisely the set of problems is more specific than most of my competitors and. That's everything from my proposal to double the rate of unionization in this country to buy insistence that we increase the minimum wage To some of the other labor market reforms proposed around taking care of contractors GIG workers to campaign finance reforms up tune including a constitutional amendment ten citizens united not to mention things. We do in the shorter Ron ranging from Ideas ideas already baked into. HR One around drowning out dark money to have your lift reforms around public financing of campaigns while we were working the bigger generational fight on things like citizens united. I believe that we need to be investing in the sources of social mobility and domestic competitiveness to include the proposal that we triple funding for title one in education to include everything this contemplated in the Douglas plan to include what we need to do around infrastructure and in order to do that we must raise taxes on wealthy individuals and on corporations so Financial transactions tax rollback a wholesale of the trump tax cuts with a special focus on. What's going on in the corporate rate tax cut? Close the one nine. A loophole deal with some of the enforcement deficiencies that are driving the big part of the revenue gap. Right now. I I'm also up into a wealth tax. I just would not put my signature proposal in a position of being completely dependent dependent on tacit is constitutionally untested but in principle. I think it's fine. I'm not counting on it. How would you double unionization we? WE HAVE PENALTIES FOR COMPANY INTERFERENCE IN UNION elections but the penalties are so weak that even when they are imposed by would I view is a much much weakened enforcement structure both in terms of the department labor in L. R. B. Even when they are imposed they're not really enough to change behavior. Why specified the need for or fines in the adequate range of the multimillions? That would actually make it a different calculation for companies to make it difficult to unionize and we need an end to write tour. Mayor Brundige publicly came out in twenty fifteen while running for reelection reelection as mayor of south. Bend doing that in the state that elected Mike. Pence governor is brave. Going on to win in. That state is impressive. He's breaking barriers as the first openly gay candidate to mount a major campaign for the presidency. When you say some people are given? Let's be more motive than others. What are you talking? Meant to be more. I don't know have more of a flourish in displaying my emotions And it is precisely because I feel very strongly about lots of things that I've learned to master how I might my feel about anything and channel that into action. Now I still take great pleasure in Firing up the crowd the degrees with me on on something. I'm passionate right but I'm also mindful as new guy that maybe waving. My arms is not the best way to convey convey what I care about. WHO's given more room to be a motive than you other? What do you see as real advantages or challenges is being the first openly gateway candidate for a major party? I mean I'll tell you a couple of things that it means right now which very powerful which is young people letting me know that. I'm helping them in some way just by doing us and not even just young queer people. The really exciting thing was when a teenager Let Me Know Oh that my campaign helped her feel like she had a sense of belonging in her school in her environment even though she had autism so that idea of representing representing difference. In a way that that validates makes you mayo maybe hopefully at least a better flavor in the Mesa the anyway. It's not unusual. I would say every rope line on now. Maybe not every plan but often somebody comes up to me. Looks at me. Starts to trade his say something and can. They're usually in their fifties roller and I know exactly what they're saying. And that's all it takes. It's not why I got into this race. But it's part of what this campaign means and I'm very mindful of that. I'm also very mindful from a historic perspective. That usually really when somebody had well. We don't have nearly enough examples but when somebody's broken a barrier going into the presidency. It's usually not been the first a person to make the attempt so the first woman president will not be the first woman to run for president. The first African American president was not the first african-american Toronto President so analytically. I'm conscious of the fact that I seek the presidency. If elected I'd be the first out gay president and the first elected official to make the attempt. Mr Mayer I wanted to ask you a little bit about reproductive rights and when you've talked about your support for abortion rates even past that you've taken cues from the Bible. I'm I'm curious how you connect with both voters. Lawmakers who have a very different interpretation from the Bible that abortion is maybe a sin or even a murderer or do you even even try to change their minds are reach them first of all. My interpretation of my religion has no business being imposed. Used on anyone else through policy so I've occasionally shared my own understanding of the versus beginning genesis about the breath of life that associate associate the beginning of life with breath but that is a personal encounter with scripture. That is not for anybody else to have to live with from a policy perspective. I think that different people reach different good-faith conclusions about when life begins which is a metaphysical and in certain certain ways unknowable. Question which is exactly why I think the consensus or at least the decision we've got to reach is not to to convince one another to draw the same line in the same place but to reach a decision or consensus about who gets to draw the line where where to draw the line but who should Ronald so I appreciate that you take your biblical interpretation out of the policy arena. But that's certainly true. The other side right. Yeah Yeah and this. Is the problem all right. This is the problem with certain versions of how some people wanNA bring religion into politics which is not just as a formation of conscience. I think we have. We have an obligation to to be transparent about how our consciences formed but something that they believe others ought to have to live by obviously as a as a member. LGBTQ community. I've I've seen the consequences of off other people believing their interpretation. Their religion ought to be imposed on me And we see something similar in the fight against against abortion rights. Can you give them names of people. You'd consider nominating to the Supreme Court. I think it's irresponsible for me to name check folks for the future. Donald Trump did it and he he is not my role model on things like helped him. I'm sure it did lots of things. He did helped him that I will not be emulating. I can tell you that there are Justices now I mean folks like you can look at the jurisprudence of somebody like Ruth. Bader GINSBURG You can look at the historic contributions of figures like they're good Marshall and get some on sense of what would guide my philosophy. Can you talk a little bit about your plan. The fifteen member Supreme Court plan that you've made a again. I do not want to claim credit for we're having invented this But it was published in the Journal. I think in the current edition as part of an article contemplating options for structural chill reform that go beyond the debate about court packing I'm not talking about changing the court in order to make it liberal more liberal My appointments will make it more liberal but at least by the lights of the way. These debates are trapped but I'm talking about a structural reform to change the political stakes of judicial appointments appointments. And the one. You're mentioning that I think deserves to be considered. is called a balanced bench. The ideas you have fifteen justices overall ten of them arrive in the traditional. You might say partisan process that we're used to the other five can only be seated by a unanimous Thomas Agreement of the other ten and the idea is that there will be a de-politicisation of those choices and it might be on a rotating basis. I think the authors in the journal suggests that they'd be rotated up from the appellate bench that gets you away from these these strange phenomena like the Kennedy brief where A whole body of case work is done to appeal to the increase of a single Perceived swing justice but more importantly to make sure that every vacancy doesn't turn into another apocalyptic ideological firefight more from our interview after a quick break to kill a mockingbird is unmissable and unforgettable raves rolling Stone Five Stars The New York Times declared it a critic's pick calling Aaron Sorkin new play beautiful elegiac GIAC satisfying even exhilarating A.. MOCKINGBIRD for our moment sixty minutes says it's the most successful American play in Broadway history. A New York magazine calls it a real phenomenon. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mockingbird directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot com. Welcome back to the choice. We asked all of the candidates how they were thinking about big tech monopolies but few have the kind of intimate relationship with facebook like mayor pizzas in October. Bloomberg News reported that Mark Zuckerberg advised Mr Bj. John it's tech campaign hires we wanted to get to the bottom of his relationship with silicon. Bali you've spoken and I believe you've told VOX recently breaking up big tax should be an option. Seems like your proposal is somewhat more vague. Then some of your opponents one of the things you mentioned was doubling antitrust enforcement budgets. You tell me a little bit about how you plan to go about evaluating whether either breaking up should happen like for facebook for example. Do you think facebook should be broken. Up So I think there's a strong case for that. The reason I don't think it makes sense for me to say as a candidate this company shall be broken. Up is the same reason. I don't think I would generally say the outcome of a trial in a judicial process You know about their power right right now as you see the influence that they had absolutely and say this needs to change. And that's the problem with facebook no one company and no one person should have the kind of power that they've accumulated now under our existing framework It was designed to handle monopolies mostly in terms of pricing power. Pricing power is not the biggest worry Around the harms that the scope and power of facebook and other large tech companies have accumulated is right one set of issues has to do with data security and data privacy that requires a national data wall and stronger privacy and security protections but frankly frankly dealing with the monopoly. Problem is neither necessary nor sufficient to fix that others. That's a standalone set of issues. That has to happen because a small company could could misbehave with data to then we got the monopoly concern and to put a little more meat on on some what you mentioned one of things. I think we're going to need is a standard that shifts the burden to large companies. Especially when they're making acquisitions like the acquisition of what's at facebook That are likely anti-competitive anticompetitive. Can you also speak to your relationship with Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah so we're in college at the same time we've got a lot of mutual friends and doesn't mean we agree on a lot of things. Yes I'm sure. He would vigorously disagree with my assessment of what's F acquisition. For example. Do you think he holds too much. Power Right now is a is a you know. Yes kind of power now. Part of the problem is that a social network is a natural monopoly right so if we were just talking about the what you might call the facebook facebook right through the products that people are familiar with breath. If you broke that up you just wind up the two of them one of them would die in one of them would be the new one. The real problem is how a corporation of that size acquires other competitors competitors and develop certain powers and. Then there's a problem of their refusal to accept their responsibility for speech that they make money so if a cable company or a newspaper right if somebody can show an ad that you all were gonNA run false you would pull it and yet yet. FACEBOOK doesn't want to hold themselves to that same standard promise. It shouldn't just be left to companies to decide how to solve these problems. There he needs to be a policy response. Basically what we've done is we've outsourced public policy decisions around the limits of speech and misinformation and the handling and the use of data to the companies which are so big that when they make a corporate policy decision in effect. They're actually making a public policy decision. uh one of the things that have stood up to the board is the way that the mayor seamlessly infuses his Episcopalian faith on the campaign trail in a genuine way. We were curious about the role. Has Faith would play if he disturbed as commander in chief of the military given your faith. How do you reconcile directing the largest most powerful military are in the world with your Christian obligation to love your neighbor our enemy? Excuse me but mostly it's one of the biggest problems of being involved in the military at any well I suppose we're all implicated in this. Just by belonging to this this country you also have to rationalize is a citizen how you participate in a society your country that sometimes does things that are Even when it's doing the the so-called right thing from the perspective of law with the Law of war is still doing something that would not be considered Chris or moral by the lights of any number of different faiths tradition some people take the approach punching out completely right. That's the Walden approach. I guess I think you have to accept the reality that you're living and working in a broken world just as we are all broken okun human beings and try to order your steps in a way that brings greater good than harm when you're in charge of something important. Most of your paycheck is when you're making decisions between two courses of action both of which involve harm not just your objectives but often to your values and you have to figure out what the right thing is to do. And that's true for I think any position executive leadership but certainly when you're in charge of a government body or were military take unit or the entire country and making those life and death decisions. That's what you have to wet. It's not finding what the perfect answer is well. It isn't a McKinsey puzzle. Where or you might be able to compute the right answer Moral Puzzles are different because they don't have a correct final answer of courses of action. Some of which can can do more good than some of which can do more so the number of countries that the United States military now has troops in is somewhat astounding. Can you make the case for why we need to have avenue. American presence in for instance the African nation of Mali so we need to maintain the ability to project force in way that will protect the homeland and meet our core security a national objectives. What I will also say is that there are a lot of the troops deployed around the world right now? Pursuant to an UMF that was passed to deal with nine eleven the UMF had no sunset and the scope creep most. Recently I think brought to life by Afghanistan papers but we've been looking at it for more than a decade is one of the reasons. Why Yeah I believe that A future you should always have three year sunset and let's have that debate If if the president if I or any other the president believe in my judgment from a national security perspective that it's appropriate to have troops deployed somewhere. I should be able to convince Congress of that not to mention the fact that the war powers are supposed to in here in Congress anyway and by the way this also helps with the fact that Congress has been all all too happy. I think not to get involved in questions like whether the AOL Matthew was supposed to deal with. Nine eleven justifies troops being in Bali. or so some of these deployments problematic and we need a much more crisply defined mission both for the war on terror in general and for future military engagements even while recognizing that we are going to have a base architecture. Globally that ensures that we maintain global military superiority. especially as we get into a a more and more multipolar world since you brought it up. Can I ask you about the Afghanistan papers. Were you surprised by. I sort of broad conclusions that the public has been lied to for a great many years about the possibility of success angered but honestly not completely surprised. I I remember these debates raging in the time that I was deployed and you could argue. That was very late in the war. I thought it was the end of the war. I thought I was one of the last troops turning the lights that was years ago and I even remember they posted one of those inscrutable power points on the wall of the gym by the treadmills. Remember staring at it and the powerpoint was supposed to hold the lines of effort that constituted the mission as only F- turned into resolute support and Just squinting at it and thinking I I know a fair amount about about why we thought we were here. And I can't make sense of this. So if the mission is unclear and civilian casualties are at an all time. High Now I is the war working wage. They're in a morally defensible. Way To go back to what you were talking about before will. Unfortunately I think it some of our moral intuitions that keep us chasing after some lofty and possibly impossible outcomes possibly impossible. Let me rephrase. Well it's not that it's impossible. They're not impossible. It's not impossible for Afghanistan to become a thriving prosperous democratic state. But it is impossible for that to happen quickly. It is impossible for it to happen before the time has come when we need to withdraw troop presence which is to say that time has come and it hasn't had the trump administration has been trying to do it for for three years. Now how how would you do it any quicker. The trump administration's not big on Decision Making and also not big on multilateral diplomacy in order to do this the thing we have going for us it is that leaving Afghanistan is possibly the one thing that all of the parties think ought to happen the US left the US right. The international community the Taliban and in long on the Afghan government all want to see the tap so the question is when we leave where we can leave weller regionally poorly and what leaving well looks like is to make sure that there is some kind of negotiated political settlement. That gets us here. Not Based on a spontaneous invitation to Camp David but based on a proper level of engagement with the government the Afghan government government I mean the Taliban and regional players that play a hugely important role in that area. I'm thinking about Pakistan focused on in particular may ask you about immigration. Are you going to reverse some of president. Trump's policies is agreements with Third World countries on asylum or not letting asylum-seekers await the judgment within the United States would be your criteria you for deportations when it comes to asylum seekers first of all. Let's recognize that measures like the family case management program worked. Virtually everybody in that program program appeared when they were supposed to and so I would not continue the remain in Mexico Policy And we need to recognize our policies and our tone the idea that asylum is a right the thrust of my business on immigration centers on legislative reform. But Upfront Front. We know that there need to be actions to ensure the family separation can't happen again to the extent that the government is in the business of housing at all. I believe that should be handled by H s which is Designed around health and not by customs and Border Protection which is not set up for that kind of role and number of other steps that we gotta take right away? It is perfectly self-defeating to threatened to withdraw aid from for example the Central American triangle countries when by far the best way forward to prevent a migration crisis in our interest is to make sure that people are living prosperous or at least minimally can count on safety in their our own home countries. Part of which can be supported With American investment the people will continue trying to reach the United States. What would you do? As president. In diff- tens of thousands of Central Americans showed up at the border. Well we still need to maintain a border Mattress and crossing the border illegally. We will be illegal when I'm president to next. We wanted to ask Mr British about healthcare. Not just as public option plan but the other health issues facing America. Do you think that families should be able to obtain religious or personal exemptions for mandatory vaccination. We've seen the public look health. Impact of I can't even call it pseudo science But the way that people have been steered off of things that are necessary complex Different states have different frameworks. Some of which acknowledged these kinds of exemptions and some of which don't I acknowledge that Those differences exist among the states But we have to move toward a world universal vaccination and I just WanNa talk a little bit very quickly about the public option. Which is what you've supported in terms of health to reform? You know you've said yourself a couple of times today that this is still actually a bold vision. It's kind of sort of gotten framed as weak sauce relative to Medicare for all. But it's actually still still a pretty heavy left. So can you talk a little bit about how you see getting that through Congress. which is there's going to be a lot of and what you think it would cost so medicare for all if you want? It has strong support and often when people tell pollsters there for Medicare for all this is what they mean right And so there's issue after issue where we've got to do is manage the daylight between what commands a majority among the American people and what can get a majority in the American Congress part of that. His wife need structural reforms. Why we've got to do something about things like gerrymandering and other issues that helps to explain why Congress is the way it is but I also believe that a very good use? The president's time and energy is to be personally present in even conservative states or districts where measures like this have popular support. And and I don't think there's anything fanciful about this because you can just look at the political life of the which again was was toxic Democrats and twenty ten when I was getting crushed in my first experience without Indiana and by two thousand eighteen was winning issue for Democrats such that even when the Republicans controlled everything they could not make good on their central campaign promise even when they were in charge so we started at one point five trillion over ten years in order to achieve that actually a fully one point four of it can be recouped just from rolling back the corporate tax rate portion of the trump tax cuts for the other zero point. One one hundred billion I would Account that as part of the savings that we will get from the negotiation of prescription drug prices by Medicare and HHS which I think narrowly that move alone CBO had between three and four hundred billion dollars over a decade We believe the overall savings to the treasury of the different moves. We aim to make would come to over six hundred billion but anyway I only need zero point one to make up the gap between one point four and one point. So here's the thing. I kind of want to talk about one point. Five trillion is a lot less than Medicare for all the words plant would cost rate. But that's over ten years. If your plans succeeds and more people choose. The public option versus private insurance beyond ten in years could become quite expensive. What arguments that ultimately it would be just as expensive as something like Medicare for all so? Why not just do that? The problem with Medicare Medicare for our that version Medicare for all my competitors have isn't just the cost but it's also the idea of dictating to people. What their choice? There's a comparable danger of policy arrogance in supposing that we can guess from Washington to correct number of years before the transition should happen. And so what I'm supporting is a away for for the transition to be organic so that was most of the editorial boards interview with South Bend Mayor People to read the full conversation visit. NY TIMES DOT com slash endorsements that's endorsements with an s to hear the boards impression of the mayor's visit and for an explainer of his proposed changes to the Supreme Court. Check out the deliberation episode. It was also released today. We'll be back in your feed tomorrow with the boards conversation with former Massachusetts governor. Deval Patrick see. See that the choices produced by Atwill Media Mitch Blue Stain Molly. SOCIA- show Ashley Taylor and Rachel Lightner with help from Michel Mason mixing by Lauren Gardner in original music by Allison Leyton Brown special. Thanks to Tyson Evans from the New York. TIMES UH-HUH ARE executive producers are Willnot from media and Phoebe let from the New York Times. Finally we want to hear from you please. Rate and review us on the Apple. PODCASTS UP. It'll to help more voters find the show

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Deval Patrick: The Interview

The Choice

44:03 min | 6 months ago

Deval Patrick: The Interview

"The New York Times critic's pick to kill a mockingbird is beautiful elegiac satisfying even exhilarating raves. Jesse Green it's the most successful American play in Broadway early. History says sixty minutes rolling. Stone gives mockingbird five stars calling it a landmark production of an American classic and. NPR says it's one of the greatest plays in history history all rise. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mockingbird a new play by Aaron sorkin directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot com. I I know you see this nation as a place that is supposed to commit to freedom the ingredients of which are equality. Opportunity in fairplay. I know you have those aspirations for this country. And there is an antibody else in the race who has worked on those issues for his entire career in private and public sector. Hi I'm Katie. Kingsbury from the New York Times editorial board and welcome to the choice a new podcast brings brings you behind closed. Doors and into the exclusive deliberations process around the New York Times. Pick the two thousand presidential candidate in each episode. You'll hear Democratic presidential candidates. Make their pitch as an interview. The biggest job of their career every election year the board chooses a candidate after closed-door off the record interviews and a lot of internal debate but the stakes are so high in twenty twenty and we think voters deserve to hear how we decided an hour pick as the best candidate to be Donald Trump. So we're giving you access to these conversations and the debates that that followed so you can make the choice for yourself to learn more about how the board works and WHO's on it. Go back and listen to episode one of the series. We've trimmed each of these interviews down but if you'd like to read the full transcript you can find them on ny times dot Com backslash endorsements that's endorsements with an S.. Hi Everyone I'm duval. Patrick used to be governor of Massachusetts. But that's where I started. The next visitor a tour boardroom was the third and final. Cut It from New England former Massachusetts Governor Duval. Patrick Governor. Patrick is a Harvard educated lawyer. Grew up on the south side of if Chicago. He worked for the N. W. C. P. Legal Defense and Education Fund and later served as assistant attorney general for civil rights under Bill Clinton in two thousand listen six. Mr Patrick became the first African American governor in Massachusetts history. Succeeding Mitt Romney. He served two terms as governor before returning to the private sector. We're here at the private equity firm Bain capital. That's right Mitt Romney's fame capital there. He dedicated his work to impact investing investing in companies as with the potential to lift up disadvantaged communities though he flirted with running in two thousand sixteen. It wasn't until this past November that he officially announced his candidacy for President mm-hmm but I am not going to be president of the Democrats ready to be president of the United States. His pitch to the American people is a moderate one supporting public option. Action for health insurance and distancing himself from a wealthy tax but despite being in Barack Obama's inner circle of friends and powerful Democrats. Mr Patrick has struggled to break one percent the polls after his late entry into the race we wanted to ask what made him want to jump in. This already crowded field. You know I was looking more at the country the field I have felt for some while deep gratitude for my own American journey have had the range of life and leadership experiences. This is that I've had and I have been concerned about the accessibility of that dream for fewer and fewer people people in more and more Places I think it was. It was true. You know when I first Left the south side of Chicago at fourteen in nineteen seventy and I think it is a deeper concern and ought to be for all of us Because I think the American dream is defining and worth fighting for and that's the reason that I looked hard at getting in a little. I've been more than a year ago and some of you may know this but We were two or three weeks. From a from an announcement we had whole roll out plan and everything and And and my wife was diagnosed with uterine cancer and so That's sort of things are just brings her feet back to Earth We paid attention to her into so that I was just saying outside the when we celebrated thirty five years of marriage and may she's cancer free. She's doing great She's fired up. I continue to watch watch the field as it was evolving and I have a lot of friends in the field and I've been talking to them through their campaigns but it's still true I and I say it is humbly as a candidate Tan. There isn't anyone with the range of life and leadership experiences that I have had in the field with the problem solving experiences I have had in government in the private sector here in the United States and overseas and I think I've learned from that to get changed the last you have to be willing to bring other people in and not to make the agenda any less ambitious to get Solutions that are the success points and bragging points for a whole lot of people you have to make space for people including folks who may not agree with you so I think that because I think this is a moment where we can't miss beyond replacing the incumbent president the willingness of people to invest in their own aspirations in our government. I think is right on the edge when you get in this light. There are logistical challenges. You may not be on the Michigan Primary Mary Ballot. You're not going to be in the debates. So what is your path. I think voters are just starting to pay attention. My reception in Iowa was very warm as it has has been in each of the early early states we're going to compete and compete hard and we're going to deal with the skepticism that I have faced in every every campaign every other stage of my life there is nothing. I've done where somebody said you can't do that. That's not for you. It's not return. It's not your are time. I'm used to that but I think what I'm asking of voters and maybe I respectfully ask it of you know. Take chance on your own aspirations. I read this paper every single day every day. I know what you care about. I know you see this nation nation as a place that is is supposed to commit to freedom the ingredients of which are equality. Opportunity in fair play. I know you have those aspirations for this country and there isn't anybody else in the race. Who has worked on those issues for his entire career in private and public sector? Well we didn't want to ask the questions we'd already heard it in the debates. We actually hadn't heard Governor Patrick's take quite a few of the biggest topics the Democratic primary like this sport Medicare for all Medicare for all the slogan. We've been using for a whole bunch of different things What I support is a public option whether that public option is Medicare or not? I'm totally open to that. But the point is to get healthcare to everybody that is affordable. I don't support it Eliminating the Private Insurance Industry. And it's not because I have any particular fondness for the private insurance industry is just I think you get you get a creative tension in having private insurance having to figure out how to compete with a lower cost alternative that is Publicly paid for and you get some innovation on on the Medicare side where CMS is going to have to think about how to make its offerings It's quality comparable to And broaden as broad God as the private insurance industry that's a good thing and I think we as citizens I think are hungry for innovation in public policy in the same way we see it in the private sector but if you want successful in avation the environment has to tolerate failure. The politics punish failure so we get less innovation than we'd we'd like so in Massachusetts. We had a broad coalition of policymakers providers patient advocates interfaith. Interfaith leaders all kinds of folks. Who came together to invent healthcare reform and then stuck together because we can't learning things governor? Romney signed the build. It took effect the day I took office. We should call it Patrick here by the way not Romney here And we got the ninety eight point five percent insured in short short order but I signed three four. Maybe five major healthcare reform bills after the first one why we're learning things and we kept trying to improve improve on the strength of what we what we learned. And that's that's what it's going to have to be like at the federal as governor. You were tasked with presiding over the earliest years of Romney care. And you're really forced to grapple with the balance between expanding access to healthcare and containing costs. I'm just curious looking the key lessons learned from that are and what which of those lessons you would take to the White House Unlike the our healthcare reform was only about access and not about cost. It had no cost containment mechanisms the the medical home idea for example that's entirely from the ACA fabulous idea idea but we didn't. We didn't have that one of the things I've found about the conversation around cost members talking about that coalition came together And stuck together. Is that here. We have the economy collapsing in premiums. Going up year after year well ahead of inflation in the great power of a governor and the president for that matter. I think it's a convenient power. Everyone will come to the table but everyone came to the table and I would say you know what is going on. We need a solution to that. The answer always we started with. It's complicated and Ben. Hospitals would point to the doctors and the doctors would point to the specialists to the insurance and someone and no one took any responsibility funds ability for For any of it. I think that's one of the reasons. By the way why the appeal of Medicare solution is so great. It's so simple and familiar seeming seaming and at one point I lost my ahead is sort of a public hissy fit and we froze the state's willingness to pay any more for services under the they were provided added on on our own exchange. We ultimately got to a piece of legislation and some regulations under it that required a collaborative arrival At what increases could be should be still too high view but we got to some one of the reasons why a low cost. The paid public option is attractive to me. Goes back something I was saying earlier. Private engine not just insurance but the private healthcare confinement. We'll figure another way to compete for that part of the mark one follow up on that which is Massachusetts home to many of the nation's most prestigious hospitals get. They're not often often part of the conversation around the questions of healthcare costs and what are driving them. We often hear about prescription drugs and insurance in this. Can you talk a little bit. About what changes changes you think. Hospitals need to make so community hospitals and community care have to be a big part of the solution and more convenient all apart from the demand with the problem. Is there there though right. Like if you're speaking in general an hour away why would you go to the local hospital. Well so one answer to that has been transparency. I'm just not sure the people people they buy a new hip in the same way by soap. I've just now I'm just going to say what I'm saying. I don't. I'm not sure that we make our healthcare here. Decisions that way. I'm all for transparency. You can go on the on the website in Massachusetts and see what a new hip costs at Milton hospital versus engage. That's part of it. Would you push for wealth tax. Well my answer is. That's not the answer from my perspective mostly because I don't think wealth Is the issue. It's greed I do think we need massive simplification of the individual or the personal income tax system. You know we are a treat. All income is income. We ought to just make it a lot simpler on the corporate side. Even the business communities didn't want the rates to go that hello So I think those rates probably need to go up as much as four or five points but the work isn't finished unless you eliminate the loopholes because most of those were in place for you know around arguments that the rape for him too high so that work is unfinished. What is attractive to me about? The frame of a wealth tax is to think about it as at one time assessment against things like you know bring the deficit down eliminating Student debt is practical matter ongoing basis. I'm not quite sure it It works but you know you have to acknowledge the frustration and resentment. A lot of people feel about where we are and how we got here And that's to my point about green when I was growing up on the south side. CHICAGO on Welfare. Nobody gave us the message we were. We were resent rich people it was about. Here's the stuff you have to do. You have to be that And the things you had to do And the rules here they will buy to get to be that have all been compromised is used in my time and I think there's a whole lot We can do around that. And that's what our opportunity agenda is about. You'll hear more about that. It's about investing in education education in innovation. Which is a strategy a movement or representation of how the knowledge base Economy is becoming. And how how we can own it as a nation and infrastructure which is the unglamorous work the government does that enables the rest. How do you feel about free college tuition? I think the public colleges and universities should be much much more affordable and by the way I think that from our expensive nashes that has to do with the public coming out of College College and university. We we tried to get to a fifty fifty contribution in exchange for a freezes. We didn't get much further than Matt and I think it's slipped back since but One of the things I'm interested in is this notion of national service worth that General McChrystal has been working on on and and has proposed that. I've CO chaired with him. For a whole lot of other reasons but alongside that I love the idea of having a a year or or two of tuition relief in exchange for your time contributing to the common good. After Mr Patrick left the Clinton administration he went to the the private sector. Were Gift General. Counsel for big corporations like Texaco and Coca Cola from two thousand and four to two thousand six he was appointed member of the parent company of Ameriquest the the largest lender of subprime mortgages which played a big role in the great recession. We wanted to know more about his tenure there most Americans their biggest investment is their home. That's how they create an ownership stake. That's how they growth back in two thousand and five you described Ameriquest as in good company. That's a company that destroyed the wealth of a lot of American Erkin homeowners. What did you mean dear regretted? Look I think the reason I went on that Ford is Because they needed some help and trying to figure out how how to make their products available to people wanted homes who couldn't get a mortgage in the regular market. And we did. I think a lot of good work in that respect. Not all of those loans owns. were bad loans I think. In retrospect the bundling of those loans and securitizing them in a volatile market was terrible idea and contributed to allow the hardship But it's also true. It's also true. A lot of folks who wouldn't have been able to get access to to mortgages got them and are still in their homes so yes I think I wouldn't do it again And I don't think Ameriquest would do that again in the same way but I think the intentions were Were right and I think the problem remains and we do need solutions to get at that. The market alone is not going to Deliver we wanted to hear more about governor Patrick's position on solutions the climate crisis. So we asked him about the green new deal the legislative package calling for the government to Wean United States off fossil astle fuels and curb greenhouse gas emissions. Do you support the green new deal until you. In Massachusetts. We joined the regional greenhouse gas initiative. I should've We use those. which is you probably know regional Cap and trade System we use those proceeds to invest in energy efficiency number one in energy energy efficiency. We closed the last two whole power plants. We created a statewide and then with regional variations resilience and recovery plan invested. It'd behind that. And we stimulated a clean tech sector with an emphasis on solar alongside wind and efficiency which was one of the sectors whose jobs helped lift us out of recession for reparations. Look reparations don't mean a thing without reconciliation in my view and That's another one by the way where we people made a lot of different things by the use of a single term. We have a lot of unfinished business in this country. And I don't think think it's GonNa get resolved by just writing a check and when I say just I don't mean to diminish the continuing economic hardships that have their roots in slavery and a lot of other bad decisions that we've made over time but I think we need. We need to understand that history. We need to confront that history so that it. It isn't just about an economic shift. It's really about justice when the government changed in South Africa for they had the benefit of having a saint for president it but nobody was more entitled to their rage than Black South Africans and the the Truth and reconciliation commission which was about making a history of fact about what happened having folks who were the perpetrators on on the record talking about that an engaging acknowledging that I think was enormously important and we don't have not done that in this country true. I heard Governor Haley say just the other day that she referred to how Dylann roof had hijacked the confederate flag which was otherwise a symbol of service and sacrifice. No no it's not it's a symbol of division and hate and intimidation and it has been flown net way in many many places to make people like me. Afraid what should governments are all in a reconciliation. I think the SBA. I think some of it is leadership. Put the policies to one side. You may be getting at the policy. His I'm not saying ignore the policies but we have to start with the with lining near us to talk about bettas conversation And I think convenience around that where people can say the off the In here The stuff that we need to understand about our history would really What happened at the end of reconstruction for reconstruction to end with the deal was and then the The concerted effort to retail. Oh the south story and do that. In a way that doesn't make the folks who They lost the war for they won the peace. Our current president ran for the Office of the Most Racist Campaign in my lifetime with the exception of George Wallace and wakes up and figure out how to death. Any any did with that but candidates in this period appear to me to be they WANNA somehow allied that and walk by that and talk about social division forty three percent percent of the population will accept. Almost anything trump dumps. What is campaign showed with? Racism had abroad consistency in the United States. For how do you walk walk five. How did you campaign without addressing that directly as a friend of mine puts it? I am convinced as he is that all the racists they voted for trump. I am not convinced that all the people who voted for trump racist no one who does this for a living. I do think that either people either embrace that or did not matter to them. A lot of people didn't hear it. A lot of people embraced it. That rhetoric has abroad. Constituents at what do you do look I i. I started out as a civil rights lawyer for the Defense Fund. I was ahead of the civil rights. Division I mean these are important to me personally. I live this life. I talked about the campaign that way just that way I remember being here. He in New York six months ago. Oh in jeans and a blazer and a casual shirt and a cap in a shop walking distance from here and folks who walked in and got waited on by the Sabah what right I passed me and I could never get any attention even when I kept saying. Excuse me. Don't tell me. Racism is over. I understand that I understand that and I also understand that part heart of our healing and is what I was trying to say earlier is about convening around those Those issues there are a whole lot of people who feel that the conversation is over because you are right and righteous to get solutions. Frankly to make it possible for people to have the conversation. You've got to make it possible for them to say their piece to you. Know I've I've lived my whole well. Life straddling these two worlds or a lot of it. I remember when I went to When I left the south side Chicago when I was fourteen I'd been in you know big broken overcrowded public school so then everybody in the classroom love just like me and was just like me? Everything was broke. I went off to Milton Academy and everybody wasn't don't and you're straddling these two worlds as if the price of admission to the one is rejecting the up and I had to decide who I was and be that all the time because that was the only way for you to be able to live and move in more than one more than one world. I think in some ways that has been America's struggle all along its struggle Ogle of candidates. It's it's not something I'm unfamiliar with is not something I have hidden. From more from our interview after a quick break to to kill a mockingbird is unmissable and unforgettable raves rolling Stone Five Stars The New York Times declared it a critic's pick calling Aaron Sorkin new play beautiful elegiac elegiac satisfying even exhilarating A.. MOCKINGBIRD for our moment sixty minutes says it's the most successful American play in Broadway history. A New York doc magazine calls it a real phenomenon. Ed Harris Is Atticus Finch in Harper. Lee's to kill a mockingbird directed by Bartlett Sher tickets at telecharge dot com. Welcome back to the choice. It Mr Patrick's two terms as governor. He implemented a statewide health. Insurance reform program pushed through a thirteen billion dollar transportation infrastructure bill and focused on education policies to close the achievement gap. He left office with a pretty good approval rating though not without its scandal else recalled Eliana Levin. Grafton is one of the children who was under supervision when she died. The agency admitted this weekend. It misplaced faxed fifty. Most is tragically with the death several very young children under the watch of the Department of Children and families which was being run by a civil servant Olga Roach Commissioner Rochet has the expertise. He's to lead this agency but it's clear from the events of this weekend that she can no longer command the trust of the public or the confidence of wanted to ask. Ask Governor Patrick about his handling and I want to turn to your record if that's okay As governor you chose to cut the Department of children and families this To the bone during the downturn that really launched DCF into a tailspin and we saw several horrific cases of children who were under or D. C. F. Swatch but who were killed or neglected in really terrible ways. Do you have any regrets about that decision. Would you have done it differently. In any way especially especially around for instance. The firing old roach will listen. I think first of all it's not it's not exactly so that we cut it to the To the bone. We cut everything over some programs that others would argue were were less vital than DC. Yeah that's what others whose line item. That isn't would argue. That's how it is It was terrible circumstance trying to deal with The bottom falling out of the budget and those outcomes were terrible. Does anyone know what you're talking about. Sure I say a little bit more about the circuit about more about the case because there was one Particularly horrific case where a child was supposed as part of the plan was supposed to be checked on regularly and the social worker. Who was responsible for that lied about? It said that she was checking when she wasn't and told her supervisor that she was lying about and the supervisor lied about it to the supervisors Supervisor and then the child was loss and when we when we learn that we fired the social worker and the supervisor and we reprimanded the supervisor's supervisor and yet people wanted the head head of the agency's head on a pike. I mean that was one particularly terrible. Situation is the worst it was I. Would I would agree with you. But there were several cases. This is that happened under guerrillas. Watch that were unbelievable From the outside and I I'm sympathetic to the idea that it's almost impossible hospital in a situation that defines itself in to protect every child. I under I take that one but I'm just curious I'm kind of looking for a little self affliction in terms of. was there anything that your administration could have done differently. That would have perhaps prevented one of those cases. It's impossible to know you. You know I I I'm still tormented by that. Because this is as you acknowledged in your question these are the hardest is possible cases in the hardest possible Situations on a good day I think some of the things we learned in the course of the review that the new head eldest do was that their tools they could have had that might have helped. And that's I can only use the conditional words because I don't know so you know being able to do more remotely on ipads seem sort of quaint to say it now but the reporting requirements. That were all by by hand and all had to be done back on the computer back in the office when the action was out on the On the street is something we might have anticipated and and supply but it didn't I and we learned about that as we as we went forward. So yeah I'm sorry about it I'm I'm totally. Sorry about and have been from the beginning. I mean you said earlier earlier. You tried to build bridges. You certainly did some of that Massachusetts. But actually some of the biggest challenges you hard came from the all Democrat legislature loose. And I'm Kinda in a curious. How that kind of informs how you would handle Mitch? McConnell's Senate for instance. I was an unwelcome entrant when I started the campaign pain and you know for sixteen years before the legislative leadership had had republican governors and one of them described it to me when the governor would submit his or her budget. They take the the budget say. Thank you very much and toss it into the into the fireplace and we started in. It was bumpy but I will say the legislature just they just gave me ninety five percent of what I asked for rarely when I asked for it rarely in the form I asked for and that that was the lesson. We got the goal which was not the bill but what the bill was trying to do right but there were other ways of Thicket about how to get there that had to be accommodated or to get it done and so I think what I learned was the importance of being real clear about the objectives and also a willingness to you sharp elbows but without embarrassing people publicly by the way leader. McConnell plays a completely different game and I do think that there is work that I would be eager to do as a candidate and as a nominee and as president alongside candidates for the Senate Senate because we do need a Senate that is willing to work with the White House in Nineteen ninety-three. The husband of Governor Patrick sister was twice convicted of spousal rape in California and served prison time there. His sister and brother-in-law then reconciled and moved to Massachusetts and he apparently never registered sex offender. They're Mr Mr Patrick's first year as governor. The Sex Offender Registry Board decided that his brother-in-law did not have to register because he committed his crime in a different state several employees Roy on the Registry Board subsequently overturned that decision the governor could have just stayed out of the whole thing but instead he decided to fire those employees the scandal has dogged dogged him ever since. I have another question from when you were governor. I was wondering if you could please speak to how it is that your brother in law was able to avoid registering during on the sex offender registry Massachusetts despite being convicted of rape very painful story for our family he was ruled by a hearing officer under under the existing rules. They have since changed under these rules. As not having to register there was an attempt to undermine that which I learned about later not at the time and there was no mechanism by the way for trying to undermine that lawfully anyhow And if what you're getting at what is the dismissal of the leader I am Yes. The failure to update rules the failure to some indication that there had been harassment harassment of Some staff and accumulation of things and then Learning about this attempt to To interfere with a hearing officer Mr Against the law. You can't I tolerate because this involved your sister again as you just said. I'm sure this is a very painful situation for your entire family. But isn't that a reason why you should have recused herself from this situation. I stayed as far away from this as long as I could all the dismissal of all these other things were accumulating relating and and the dismissal is the governor's decision and I asked for her and others resignation in the there by by the way I think people sometimes get this A little backwards. She didn't actually do anything that hurt him. It was the interference interference in the hearing officers decision which she had no authority to do and the rules are the rules. I think the bigger question in the public's mind seems to be why You were directly involved there. I'm the appointing individual had the appointing authority and the removal There was no mechanism for anyone else to make the call there air. No and it wasn't just that as I said she'd been reprimanded twice by our highest court the agency had for not updating these rules that were required to be Ought to be updated and believe me the political thing would have been to stay away from it. I just washed my hands of the whole Of of the whole thing and then of course somebody would come along and say wait a second. She was trying to influence a hearing officer a decision outside of her authority. And how come you look the other way and my answer. I don't like my answer to be because it was the political thing to do to to stay with criminal justice. For a moment your record with pardons and commutations in the state Didn't pardon or commute. The sentences of that many people How would you approach the job as president with with you know the clemency power being one of the most unfettered powers that a president has the clemency? Power of a governor's not in Massachusetts not unfettered one of the things. We looked at That I'm very intrigued by from the president's perspective is commuting the sentences of people who have been convicted of non-violent drug offenses. It's hard to do that quite categorically but I think there are Groups or president. Obama tried to do that. I know near the end of his I. I know. I think he'd probably start sooner. Because of the you have to do an individual assessment. I think war is beginning to that sooner. I think is a very intriguing Opportunity that alongside changing the schedules around which offenses unqualified for which kinds of sentencing and smoothing out the ending three strikes in round and sentencing reform? You know who's been leaders at the state level on this Republican governors. They've been way out ahead of Democratic governors and we first proposed Sentencing reform in in Massachusetts Democratic leadership were incredibly uncomfortable uncomfortable. Because of you know say Democrats are the first ones to believe Republican talking points and And folks were really concerned about being viewed as so called soft on crime vermillion for millions of Americans Church and religion are central part of their lives. Can you talk to us a little bit about your own. Faith do you believe in God who are your main spiritual advisers. I was raised in the church. I am a person of faith My church you know what's interesting. Our Church on the south side of Chicago was unusual as black churches go was quiet And it was like other black churches in terms of the transformational power of music in the church and and also old ladies in hats. Who you know who took the business of worship seriously and I think what I took from that experience and still take from that experiences that faith is not? It's not just what you say you believe is how live it's the choices you make The good you try to do And and I will say also you know I love Democrats Democrats get on my last nerve and I don't know why it is. We are so uncomfortable with the language of faith when the work we are about and have been about as a party is very much What what Christ asks of his disciples boozing the last story in last Gospel feed my sheep? Given your faith. How do you reconcile the job of directing the largest most powerful military in in the world With the Christian obligation of loving your enemy well scripture also teaches. I can't remember which where it appears when they're building the wall of the Second Temple to do so with a shovel in one hand and sword in the other the world is a is a dangerous and difficult place? I think the My faith tells me and And I think wisdom tells me not to be trigger-happy. Try Not to be the first one to fire that shot but be ready I think our power in the world is not so much our military or our economic power in great nations with great armies armies and great treasuries of come and gone with the wind time our power is our is our values. It's a his the aspirations of the American Experiment which go back to those notions the civic ideals of equality opportunity in fairplay and I think we are more powerful in the world when we have fealty fealty to those values at home and more at risk when we don't And I think that's part of our challenge today. Let let me ask you a continuing that thought perhaps about Israel President trump has taken some fairly controversial unilateral steps recognizing ising Jerusalem is the capital accepting that the settlements are legal accepting Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Heights. Would you reverse those exactions the reversal you know. The first time I went to to Israel was governor and I remember I. I sat down with Prime Ministry St Netanyahu in Tel Aviv and then I sat down with Amazon in Jerusalem. The consulate functioned as the as the embassy for For the Palestinians and realistically speaking the capital of Israel has been Jerusalem for a long time. Uh but I think the business of tolerating infecting cursing the settlements As someone who believes in a two state solution. It seems to me to be completely counter-productive and And to make harder what Israel says it wants which is both a democratic mechanic and a Jewish state. And it's you know without a two-state solution. I'm not sure you get there. Yeah I'm not sure you get there. Would you reverse those actions. Well the reverse means what declaring that. They're illegal well. I think they are illegal But I think declaring is one thing I think actually delivering A long term solution is another And I think that requires both partners. Who are willing And that's been a problem. I think on both sides but also Also more than declaring we have leverage points in my day we should we should use them and we should use them Respectfully I think by the way the interrelationship between first of all Israel's incredibly important democracy Chrissy and partner of ours in the region and will always be if I'm president. I believe in Israel's right to exist I believe also that oust Finian's deserve the dignity of being human beings and being treated So what I was GonNa say is the relationship between What is going on between Israelis and Palestinians and what is going on a larger region between Shia and Sunni and the proxies of Iran and Saudi Arabia? I think can be. I am probably ought to be a focus of a comprehensive approach by my ministration. Can I ask you about Afghanistan. Do you think trump administration is going about resolving that war appropriate way the trump. Yeah they're negotiating with the Taliban. Yeah off and on. But he hasn't done the deal. I mean this is somebody wanted to end. The warriors always have three years to do. It still hasn't been so and I read the cheers from the from the post as well. I don't know what the answer is playing surprising in that series I went to Kabul with some other governors several years ago to visit National Guards. Many women who were there for so many national guard supplementing Regular military visited Iraq and Afghanistan Journal portrays was still there at the time he did not not say directly but you kind of get a feel from his team that there wasn't really a plan. There was a hope that the Taliban would take back or that. A government would take responsibility for Afghanistan in managed going Ford but not really not really a plan and I. I don't know enough. I don't have all of the the intelligence and the and the diplomatic information nations but there has got to be away for US responsibly to end endless war and to be more rigorous rigorous about Our objectives going in and our strategy for coming out. Mindful that things change but it doesn't seem like we had much more than a grudge for going into Afghanistan. Replace you said that you were there and you sort of came away with a sense that there wasn't a plan I mean. Shouldn't you have said something something at the time this was this was exactly the lesson. These Washington Post papers that everybody knew and no one had the courage to come out and say a bluesy. Come out and say it in a stand up and make a statement what I did do Before I went and after I came home was debrief with the State Department. I briefed before I went and I debriefed with the estate when I got When I got and if we have that the classified would it show? Your concern was one last thing. We're asking everyone. What are you likely to fail? L. APP has president I'm impatient and You know these jobs require patients I'm a pretty good listener. I acknowledge that You know I don't have to be the smartest one in the room and an m often. Not I want the smartest people in the room I'm to help me make a make decisions and I want them to feel free to disagree in push back so I don't want people who just say yes in the room I think that's the best teams I've been on those the best outcomes but I am very impatient because it turns out you know four years eight years just not long is just not long and I. I'm I'm proud of the fact that after eight years we were in Massachusetts I in student achievement and healthcare care coverage veteran services energy efficiency and entrepreneurial activity and and you know highest bond rating in our in our history twenty five year employment in high but I also know how much we didn't get done. I also know what we didn't get right into some of the social services in in particular The loss of children. I also know the you know. I know how much of the infrastructure we did get right but some we didn't get to you. Just don't have as much time as you think and so. I try try to cram a lot into a day and into the time I have because I think he's supposed to do as much good as you can for as many people as you can in all the ways you you can for as long as you can and that's taxing on on a lot of people on your own team on the legislature on all y'all in the media I'm trying to keep up with it and sometimes on the American people thank you thanks for the time so that was most of the editorial boards interview with former Massachusetts Governor Duval Patrick to read the full conversation visit. NY TIMES DOT COM backlash endorsed does endorsements with an if you want to hear the boars impression of Mr Patrick's visit and a deep dive into foreign policy positions and then race. Check out the deliberations episode. It also comes out today. We'll be back in your feet tomorrow. The board's final interview former Vice President Joe Biden. You won't want to miss it. The choices says produced by ATWILL media. Mitch Bluefin Molly Socia- Ashley Taylor and Rachel. Lightner with help from Michel Mason mixing by Lauren Gardner and original music by Allison Enlighten Brown. Special Things Tyson Evans from the New York Times are executive. Producers are well Malnati's from media and Phoebe left from the New York Times. Finally we want to hear from you. Please rate and review us on the apple podcast APP. It'll help more voters by Michelle.

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