20 Episode results for "Kathleen"
The Scissor Sisters Pt. 1
"Due to the graphic nature of this crime listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of sexual situations that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen. Kathleen could hear a machine be being in the room next to hers as she waited his he a doctor. She really helped the person she saw today, wasn't the same one she saw last time or the time before that she hated being at the hospital, but she was in so much pain, her ribs, were killing her. Every breath was a knife. Kathleen thought back to the fight with her boyfriend Fara the night before him yelling as he came at her. Scrambling back to avoid his blows the images came back in pieces. She was probably as strong as he was on second thought, no one was ever as drunk as far was. But still, she could only remember so much she was on the ground is wide looking up at him had, he kicked her while she was down that would explain the pain in her ribs, he'd really hurt her this time. Kathleen thought of the threats forest. Batted her in his drunken rages. Once he had his papers. He would leave her. No one else would want her. He told her he would kill her one day she realized that it was probably true. Hi, I'm Laney hops. And this is crimes of passion podcast, original, the legal definition of a crime of passion is a murder that occurs in the throes of extreme emotion leaving no time to reflect on the consequences. But in this show, we explore passionate crimes. How does marriage progress from husband and wife to killer and victim, or killer and co conspirator if there's a thin line between love and hate what manipulates our relationships into deadly results at par cast? We are grateful for you. Our listeners allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach on on Facebook and Instagram at cast and Twitter at par cast network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review wherever you're listening. It really does help us. We also now have merchandise head depar- cast dot com slash merch for. For more information. For most of Kathleen, mo- life. All she knew was a world of abuse. Her earliest, memories were ones of emotional, and physical terror the cycle continued through her adulthood, eventually drawing in her own children, until it all culminated in a brutal murder in two thousand five in this episode will discuss Kathleen's relationship with her partner, far, nor as well as the events that led to a murder that left all of Ireland and shock next week will discuss the investigation court cases and aftermath of the crime. When sixteen year old Kathleen ward, realized she was expecting in one thousand nine hundred seventy two she readily accepted the proposal of her boyfriend twenty year old John Mulhall. She was eager to start a new life with him free. From her abusive parents, they married in Dublin Ireland and their first son James was born in December just a few months after their nuptials my nineteen Eighty-eight. Kathleen, and John had welcomed five more to their brood won't Kathleen stayed home with the kids. John worked as a glass fitter ended odd jobs, but struggle to support his large family. Six children in a three bedroom house and barely enough money to go around. Took a toll on the family. Kathleen later accused John of taking out his frustrations on her and the children by physically and emotionally abusing them before I continue with Kathleen psychology, please note. I am not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist. But I have done a lot of research for the shell according to your wanna Yvonna, poed consta-, a social worker, and psychotherapist who specializes in trauma, people tend to repeat patterns that are familiar when a child grows up in an abusive home as Kathleen. Did they see future abuse as familiar and part of life, a two thousand sixteen crime study for England and Wales reported that fifty one percent of adult survivors of child abuse experienced domestic violence later in life. And when John turned his aggression against his children, this was just another inevitability, but in the early nineteen nineties after twenty years of marriage Kathleen found out that John had cheated on her multiple times. She was devastated. She had given John six children, put up with his drinking, and abuse, given him her most vibrant years. And now he was seeing other women. Women behind her back, but Kathleen couldn't leave she hadn't held a job since giving birth to her first child at sixteen and four for children were still minors. She couldn't even be gin to imagine supporting them on her own, so she decided to stay but staying and forgiving were two different things. John, had broken their vows and Kathleen's mind there was no coming back from that as the children grew older and Kathleen grew more distant from John. She started partying and drinking more. No longer content to stay at home wanting to reclaim. What she'd missed out on when she had young children at home. And in the summer of two thousand one forty five year old Kathleen met a new man. As Kathleen stood at the bar with her daughter. Linda she noticed a handsome man, looking at her across the dance floor. He had to be at least ten years younger but Kathleen, smiled coyly at him. And he waved back. The man was standing next to Linda's boyfriend. So Kathleen asked her daughter what she knew about the attractive stranger Linda shrugged. She didn't really know him. He just hung around the group of twenty somethings. When Kathleen sauntered over to introduce yourself, the man took her hands in his, his grip was strong comforting, he told her finally, I've been waiting for someone as beautiful as you. Kathleen was hooked. They talked all night, virus, AWali nor was a thirty five year old refugee from Somalia. He had escaped the civil war by fleeing to Kenya in nineteen Ninety-one. But the refugee camp was ill-equipped and overwhelmed with mouths to feed. Fara, was also targeted at the camp for being a Uni and ethnic minority and December of nineteen Ninety-six fire paid a man sixteen hundred dollars to smuggle him from Kenya to Ireland and he immediately sought political asylum in the four and a half years since he had grown to love the country and often wore his white Ireland soccer jersey to show that pride Kathleen was taken by this man, who had been through so much yet still seemed so kind within days, Kathleen and Fara began an affair. She was completely swept up in the new relationship and felt desire. For the first time since she was a young bride though. A large part of their relationship centered around drinking together by January two thousand two Kathleen told John the marriage was over. She found someone who appreciated her and John needed to leave. He pushed back. He wasn't going anywhere. It was his house, and he was the only one who paid the bills. Kathleen was furious. She raised six children. Did John think that was any easier than going to work? How dare he hold that over her head if John wouldn't leave voluntarily she knew how to make him though. John had never been charged for domestic violence due to lack of evidence the complaints. She made about his abuse over the years had left a paper trail, she filed for an order of protection, and John was forced to move out, immediately, Kathy. Clean then moved Fara into the mohawk family home. The two children still living, there seventeen year old Marie and thirteen year old Andrew sided with their father and moved with him leaving Kathleen and Fara with the home to themselves. In fact, all of the children's sided with John and the split except for nineteen year old Charlotte, Charlotte figured if this is what it took for her mother to be happy. So be it, but Kathleen's relationship with far changed after he moved in. She knew he drank most of their relationship involve drinking together, but before they live together she hadn't seen far at his worst violent and mean, she soon realized he was an alcoholic, his friend said that when he was sober. He was the kindest man in the world. The problem was he wasn't sober very often. It began with shouting matches far would get angry over some perceived slight or jealous that Kathleen talked to another man for too long. Sometimes he didn't even need a reason to begin shouting and Kathleen would yell right back in the summer of two thousand two Kathleen decided she wanted a fresh start with Fara, the neighbors have been giving her the cold shoulder since she moved this young African men end shortly after pushing her husband out, even her own children with the exception of Charlotte. Still refused to see her it weighed on her. The only thing tying her to Dublin was the house, which she and John own jointly. Kathleen thought if she could convince John to sell the family home, she could use the money to start over with Fara somewhere else. So that summer, Kathleen and far moved to cork a two hour train ride from Dublin, John instead of putting the home up for sale moved back into it with Marie and Andrew Kathleen felt she had no choice but to agree, she would rather do without the money. Then fight with John about it. Well in cork, far work, temporary jobs through an employment agency, while Kathleen received welfare benefits, they quickly became known among the Somalian population in court as party years when they weren't at house parties, drinking, they were home drinking, and with Kathleen isolated from her own family and friends, Fara had no incentive to control his fist. Up next, the violence in Kathleen in FARs relationship escalates. I want to tell you about a really great company called daily harvest. 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Have you played best beans yet, it's the five star rated mobile puzzle game about the world of minutia, and it's cute courageous inhabitants? I've been playing it all over the past month or so. And I give you a quick update believe it or not, I'm all the way up to level two. Oh, six blast pit. I'm earning more rewards doing the Wildflower festival challenge where I collect bluebell flowers in each puzzled earn more rewards like bars of gold. I still have the same team as before, but have added beep beeper, and buckles, who have been upgraded to level ten so they could help me defeat those slugs best fiends is really fun to play. I usually play when I'm waiting for my coffee order. Or sometimes when I'm relaxing and listening to a podcast. It has over ninety million downloads globally, and I can see why have you tried best beans, yet, best beans is a five star rated. Mobile game app available for download free on the apple app store and Google play softball. Hundreds of fun, puzzles, and collect tons of cute characters. That's friends without the our best fiends. Now back to the story. In the summer of two thousand to forty six year old Kathleen Mojo had moved to cork Ireland with her boyfriend thirty six year old far Noor she left behind her friends and family without any other support nearby. She became more dependent on. Fara, in return, far is abuse and control over her escalated finding any excuse he would push hunch and kick, Kathleen, leaving visible bruises on her body forest. Sometimes worried that the neighbors would realize what was happening when her injuries were particularly noticeable. He locked her in the bedroom while he went to work, allowing her out when he was home to monitor Kathleen spent hours locked in the bedroom. Replaying, what had happened the night before. So many of the memories were blurred by alcohol. The evenings only started out fine. They would be having fun at a. A party or maybe just drinking at home while watching TV then the darker parts came back to her. Fara had started yelling at her, and she yelled back, he wouldn't tolerate a woman yelling at him for long so shocked her when she kept yelling. Fara started punching. Why did she let him provoke her in a nineteen Eighty-three paper published in the journal of social issues psychologists theorize that self blame often comes from a place of powerlessness, the abuse victim feels like they cannot stop the abuse. But if they take the blame for instigating an attack they have hoped that they can stop it in the future, though, far attempted to prevent Kathleen from showing bruises to anyone. There were a few times, she got away long enough to seek medical attention. Showing the doctors her bruises Kathleen, wouldn't tell them what happened. She couldn't stand the looks of pity or the pamphlets on domestic violence. So she would lie saying her injuries were from a mugging in the two years. She lived in cork. She was mugged for times. But what really mattered most to Kathleen was that she loved Fara. She wanted to protect him. He was in the process of gaining his Irish citizenship. So he could be with her forever. That would all be complicated if he faced criminal charges any loved her to he told her. So she believed that love was what fueled his anger and his jealousy. It was his deep love for her that provoked his strong emotions. And when far was sober. She saw the man she believed he could be. He was kind loving and gentle, Lundy Bancroft, author of why does he do that? And a well-known consultant on the mystic abuse in child maltreatment wrote than an abusers MU changes often confuse their partner when the abuser appears remorseful. The victim often believes the violence will never come back it, reinforces, the idea that the abuse was provoked. And can be avoided in the future. If only the victim tried harder. But even with her love for Fara and the hope that one day he would be sorry enough to stop the escalating abuse began to frighten. Kathleen, how much worse could it? Get there was only one person she could think of to ask, she found the phone number of one of forest ex-girlfriends programmed into his phone. Kathleen new far had a child with her, and they were together for several years. If anyone knew about what he was capable of it would be her. Please note this woman's name has not been publicly released I will refer to her as Jane. When Kathleen con Jane, she wasn't sure what she was going to say she wanted to ask if our hit her and how bad it got did Jane ever worry. Fara, was going to kill her one day to when Jane answered the phone Kathleen quickly explained who she was. She said that far was abusing her and she didn't know what to do. Gene, told her simply leave immediately. It was going to get worse. Gene, met Fara in nineteen ninety eight when she was sixteen years old, far told her he was twenty but he was actually in his early thirties after dating for three months, Jane became pregnant far was thrilled to have a family with, gene. He started going to dinners with Jean's parents and spending holidays with them after their son was born in March nineteen ninety nine the couple moved in together. They were happy, Jane thought, but just like Kathleen Jane hadn't noticed how much or how often far drink before they live together within a few months. She realized Fara, was drunk pretty much every night. And his gentle affection was no longer gentle. One night when their son was three months old Jane went out with a female friend, when she came home, far flew into a rage yelling that her friend was a lesbian and accusing her of flirting with Jane, that was the first night, he beat her after that line was crossed far found the smallest excuses to push slap and punch, gene the days. Gene was spared from his abuse were the days when far was gone out on a multiday bender. The physical abuse gateway to sexual abuse. If Jane ever told far that she didn't want to have sex, he would rape her. He tied her up and degrading positions and took photographs of her far turn the mother of his child and an object for his sadism and their three year relationship Jane left three times twice. She took him back when he begged her. While it may be hard to understand. Why someone would return to an abuser jeans number is actually below average according to the national domestic violence hotline? A woman will leave an abusive relationship on average seven times before leaving for good far promise, gene, that he would change. But the new found affection would only lasts a long before the violence returned. And each time she came back far made it harder for her to leave. He locked her in the house with the baby. And he began monitoring all of her communication text messages, emails and phone logs. He checked them all after two years together. When Jane was eighteen the couple brought in a roommate who all call. I lean to help pay the bills. Gene was relieved thinking a witness would put far on his best behavior. And it did when he was sober enough to care. But once fire drink enough, he lost all in addition, and abuse, gene, in front of I lean within a few weeks, I lean had had enough. She packed her bags and beg. Jane to leave with her Jean said, no. She didn't have anywhere to go with her son. She didn't have an education, a job or any money. It didn't matter if she left anyway far. Sarah would find her and how much worse would it be for then but even after she moved out, I lean continued to pressure, gene, to leave, then in February of two thousand one Eileen called Jane's, parents Jane not wanting to admit your parents? What a huge mistake, she had made never told them about the abuse previously. She hid it from them better than she hid it from anyone else. They were shocked and hurt when they learned the truth, they had treated far like a son brought him into their home and embraced him. Even though they weren't thrilled when Jane became pregnant at sixteen genes, father, worried, and angry immediately drove to the apartment while far was at work. He helped Jane pack up the most important things into his car and took his daughter and grandson home. It was the last time she left Fara. Jane wouldn't go back no matter how much he begged pleaded and threatened. She had the support of her parents behind her. This time the institute for family studies list, accepting support as one of the top four factors that help women leave, abusive relationships, this can be difficult because most abuse is aided through isolation of the victim. Cutting them off from support far had blocked jeans access from her family, while she still lived with him monitoring her communication, had I leaned, not intervened and contacted her family for her this attempt at leaving may have failed like the others. Fara, however, didn't let go easily calling her and screaming obscenities into the phone. He began stalking Jane if she went to a bar. Fara, would inevitably show up and yell at her from across the room. The more he realized he no longer had. Control over Jane, the more angry and aggressive has stalking became though, gene was awarded full custody of their son. Fara, was granted biweekly Sunday visits, which gave him another way to get back. Jane. One Sunday after far found out Jane was dating someone else their son came home from his visit with small burns that look like they may have been from a cigarette concerned, Fara had injured their son on purpose, gene decided she needed to find a way to keep her son safe without provoking Fara and without defying the court order, but before she could do anything, Fara, suddenly stopped contacting her, he stopped following her. He stopped sending threatening messages. If she saw him in town, he ignored her. He even stopped visiting his son. What Jane didn't know was that Fara, had met someone new. Kathleen mojo. And now that same woman who had distracted far from his reign of terror on, gene was on the phone, detaining her own abuse. Jane knew that far was capable of worse. She pleaded with Kathleen to leave in spite of the advice and Jane stories of forest, terrible abuse. Kathleen stayed in September of two thousand four after two years in cork. The pair decided to move back to Dublin. Vara had gotten into several bar, fights there and had gained a reputation he told everyone in Dublin that they had to come back because he had run afoul of a member of the Irish Republican Army during one of these fights in Dublin social services, set them up with temporary housing while they waited for an apartment to open up. Kathleen, welcomed the chance to be closer to her friends and family. She also hoped that moving back meant the return of the old Fara he hasn't been quite. So violent when they lived in Dublin before sure the old far was still mean but not as bad as a side of him. She saw in cork and fortunately, she was wrong. Kathleen, wrapped a few ice, cubes and a wash cloth and held the cold compress against her swelling. I it was already getting purple, they'd only been back a month before Izzo temper had found them he'd been so angry last night. It made Kathleen terrified she felt that the day he went too far. The day he killed her was getting closer and closer in a panic. Kathleen got dressed and through what she could fit into a sports bag. She had to get out now before came back, she would go to social services and tell them the truth Fara was abusing her. She wanted to be moved immediately to a different shelter that he didn't know about. She was getting away from him before it was too late. The case worker who was unfortunately, used to dealing with such situations, found Kathleen, a place to stay that night. She even made sure that Kathleen and Fara would never be scheduled to come to the office to pick up their checks or process paperwork at the same time as long as Kathleen wanted to stay away from Fara, they would help make that possible, but she didn't or couldn't stay away. As so often happens. Kathleen, went back, Sarah, m bule offers several possible reasons, victims, stay with their abusers, and fifty obstacles to leaving in cathlene case she went from an abusive childhood to an abusive marriage to an abusive partnership, she could have believed abuse was what was expected in life, and she likely lacked, the self esteem to believe she deserved better on top of that. She had alienated, the majority of her family and children by choosing to be with Fara admitting to them that she was abused by him and needed their help would be even more difficult. Just two weeks after Kathleen confided in her case worker about the abuse Fara and Kathleen or out together while standing on the sidewalk. Fara began hitting her a nearby patrol car stopped and arrested for on the spot. Kathleen insisted to the officers that she was fine and they shouldn't let Fargo, but they had witnessed the assault themselves and we're not about to walk away far was taken to the station and held. But when Kathleen completely refuse to cooperate or make a statement, they released far without charges a few months later in December of two thousand four Kathleen and far moved into a tiny two room apartment together. They had fully reconciled by that point being back in Dublin gave Kathleen more time with her children, or at least the ones who would see her her two oldest sons James, and John were in prison at the time. And Kathleen visited them occasionally. She was still on the bus terms with Charlotte. Now twenty one who would often stay over at the apartment drinking with her mother and Fara Linda now thirty had put some of the hard feelings aside and visited occasionally, but she preferred seeing her mother without for around, not liking how he treated her mother Charlotte also disliked him. She knew he would get violent when he was drunk. In the middle of March of two thousand five it began to look like they wouldn't have to worry about far for much longer. Apparently he had told some friends to let them know if they heard about a low cost room he could rent somewhere. He was planning to leave Kathleen, he also called his mother who still lived in Kenya and told her that he was a freight of Kathleen, according to Fara, she had threatened his life, and he believed her, he told his mother, he needed to get a knife to protect himself from her then on Friday, March seventeenth two thousand five Fara didn't show up for work. Next, Kathleen and far continue on a path that will leave one of them dead. Darkness tragedy pain. These things hide within every beloved institution. And most people are none, the wiser every week, the par cast original, the dark side of pulls back the curtain to bring you the most salacious stories and disturbing details behind everything we hold most dear. And each season covers a new cultural institution and exposes the dirty secrets that you were never meant to know from the founding fathers the music industry and dating to the space race and the wizard of Oz. There might just be a dark side to everything if you like delving deep into the CD underbelly of history, pop culture, and current events, then you will love the stories explored on the dark side of new episodes. Come out every Monday. You've heard the good side. Now here, the dark side of search for and subscribe to the dark side of. On Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, again, searched the door, excite up or visit park, cast dot com slash dark side to listen now. Now back to the story. On Friday, March seventeenth two thousand five thirty eight year old far nor missed work. The Dublin-based job placement agency he worked for tried to call him on his cellphone. But he did an answer. They tried his forty nine year old girlfriend. Kathleen Mulhall and she told them that far as child was ill. And he had gone to help take care of him in truth foreign Kathleen, we're on day two of a Saint Patrick's Day bender by the time. Monday, March twentieth rolled around far had been drunk for four days straight and was showing no signs of stopping he skipped work that day as well. The couple decided to go to Dublin city centre to walk around Kathleen called Charlotte around eleven thirty AM to see if she wanted to meet up. She immediately said, yes, the next day was Charlotte's twenty second birthday, and she wanted to celebrate Charlotte had been spending her Monday, hanging out at her dad's house. With her sister, Linda though, it was still mourning. The two had been drinking vodka and cokes at home. But going out sounded much more fun. She asked Linda to come to at first, she said. No Linda had her kids at the house, and she didn't want to just leave them. Plus Linden new, no good could come of spending the day with farro while he was drinking. But Charlotte insisted their seventeen year old brother was home, and he was plenty old enough to be at the kids. Linda tried to say no again, but Charlotte kept asking even though she was eight years, younger Charlotte was the stronger personality. She could usually persuade her sister into doing what she wanted and Linda eventually gave in. Linda and Charlotte cont the bus to the city centre arriving around one fifteen pm win. Kathleen saw her daughters. She hugged them. They looked warily at Fara Kathleen in Fara, were both holding beers. Kathleen seem steady but far was obviously drunk, not a good sign seeing as they had only just arrived. Fara, went to the liquor store for a bottle of vodka while Kathleen went to a corner store and bought three bottles of cola, the women dumped half of their sodas onto the pavement and refilled them with vodka. Fara, drink is vodka straight after walking around for a little while they headed down to the boardwalk along the river Liffey to find a bench to sit and drink. Linda used her phone to play some music and sneakily pulled out a baggie with some pills in it. She took one and then slipped another Charlotte, when she whispered something to Charlotte. Kathleen looked at them and snapped what are you doing? Linda told her she had ecstasy tablets and Kathleen insisted that they give her one as well. She watched it down with vodka and coke after a few hours of sitting on the boardwalk listening to music, and drinking, the women felt their high from the ecstasy dip so they all took another pill but not Fara, he instead, drain, the bottle as he became more and more belligerent. He started arguing with Kathleen over something, the sisters couldn't quite understand. He was switching between English and his native dialect, making them hard to follow his English was almost unintelligible when he was drunk, but Kathleen seemed. To understand him well enough to keep yelling back at him. The sisters tried to ignore them, Linda turned up the volume on her music. Eventually it began to rain and Fara became angry that he was getting wet. He was also angry. The alcohol was gone. Fara, was just angry his yelling attracted enough attention that Kathleen decided it was time to go. She grabbed him by the arm and half dragged him up the street the pair continued to bicker as they walked the sisters pushed ahead of them annoyed. Shirl had gone out for a good time leading up to her birthday and Linda, ten even want to go out to begin with if figured far would ruin the day. As a walked up the street. They passed a group of little boys playing on the sidewalk, when Fara made it to them. He singled out, one of the boys who looked to be about five years old, volunteered up saying that's my son. That's my son. The boy was not far a son, but still Bara walked up to the boy and took him in his arms. He kept repeating that's my son as he drunkenly hugged, the boy, belittle, boy, started crying frightened of the stranger who grabbed him, he began to squirm to get out of forest grip, but Fara was holding him, too tightly. Kathleen screamed at far to put the boy down the boy fighting against far managed to get both feet on the ground while Fara was distracted by Kathleen, the boy ran off leaving Fara on the sidewalk calling for him to come back. This incident only worsened far as already Dr. Mood from his point of view. He just wanted to spend time with his son and Kathleen, wouldn't let him he cursed Kathleen as they continued through the city to their -partment. She had to get him under control. As soon as they all made it to the apartment Kathleen went into the kitchen she needed another drink. But she knew that far would be angry if she made herself vodka cocktail, and not him one to the last thing he needed was more liquor. She decided to pour him a beer, instead, hoping he would be drunk enough to accept the compromise. Someone played music in the next room and Kathleen started dancing as she mixed drinks, man. These were good pills. Maybe that's what far needed just a little high. Kathleen tapped Linda on the shoulder and quietly asked her for another ecstasy tablet, then she crushed it up and stirred it into far as beer. This would do the trick for sure. They'd all have a good time. Now. Linda and Charlotte laughed as they sing along with the pop song Charlotte set on the little two seater sofa and pulled her sister onto her lap. What follows is the version of events best supported by the evidence. Please note multiple versions were presented to investigators. When Kathleen handed far his beer, he took it to the couch and sat down next to Charlotte who still had Linda in her lap far, then quickly drained, his ecstasy lace beer, while the sisters chatted with each other next to him. Kathleen, went to the bedroom relieved that far had finally stopped dealing things seem to be coming down. At some point while Kathleen was still out of the room, far turn to look at Linda, then she felt his arm around her shoulders, he pulled her close, like he wanted to hug, her immed-, Linda uncomfortable. And she tried. To pull away, as she managed to get some distance between them, far ran his hand down to her waist, and then began rubbing her back, this type of touching was not ever part of their relationship. And Linda's alarm bells went off, she tried to get up off Charlotte's lap. But before she could forest hand clamped around her shoulders, again, he jerked her towards him until her ear was near his mouth. He whispered something she couldn't quite make out, but there was no mistaking forest tone, whatever comment. He made was sexual Linda told him to get his hands off of her as she tried to get free from his grasp the knee. Whispered, you look just like your mother. Linda was still trying to pry his hand off of her shoulder when he said, we are two creatures of the night. Kathleen heard Linda scream for help and Charlotte yelling. She ran into the room and saw the panic on Linda's face. She yelled for far to let go while her daughter struggled against his grasp. Linda, eventually got enough leverage to stand up but farro was surprisingly quick, the ecstasy tablet meant to improve. His mood had given him energy. Fara grab Linda by the waste as Kathleen in Charlotte kept yelling at him. He began chanting Linda, Linda, he didn't seem to notice anyone else in the room. He was completely focused on Linda. Linda and forest struggled across the cramped living room and into the kitchen, the ended up against the sink, and there was nowhere else in the apartment for Linda to go surely had followed them into the kitchen and trying to pry, far as hands off of her sister, Charlotte, was stronger than Linda, she was tougher, but far as arms were immovable. He kept hold of Linda, and whispered, again, you look, just like your mommy Kathleen came into the kitchen and pushed far as hard as she could trying to get him off of Linda, this snapped him out of his trance, and he turned to look at Kathleen with furious rage in his eyes while holding onto Linda, he shoved Kathleen across the kitchen, still looking at Kathleen, he took a finger and dragged it across his throat. He was finally going to kill her. Thanks again for tuning into crimes of passion, we will be back Wednesday with part, two of the scissor sisters story next week. We'll discuss the gruesome choices made immediately after the murder the investigation and the court cases that followed you can find more episodes of crimes of passion as well as all of our has other shows on Spotify or your favorite podcast. Directory. For more information on the scissor sisters amongst the many sources, we used we found the Irish scissor sisters by Mick McCaffrey. And the torso in the canal by John Mooney, extremely helpful to our research, several of you have asked how to help us, if you enjoy the show, the best way to help is to leave a five star review. Don't forget to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at par cast and Twitter at park has network. We'll see you next time when true love meets. True. Crime crimes of passion was created by max Cutler is a production of Cutler media and is part of the podcast network. It is produced by Maxon wrong Cutler with sound design by Michael Ling's ner. Production assistance by Ron Shapiro and paulie. Skinned additional production assistance by Maggie admire, and Freddie Beckley. This episode of crimes of passion is written by Charlie whirl. I'm Laney Hobbs. Don't forget to listen to the dark side of it pulls back the curtain to bring you the most salacious stories and disturbing details behind everything we hold most. Dear be sure to search for and subscribe to the dark side of on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please don't forget to rate and review.
Avoiding the Midlife Crisis: Guest Kathleen Reily
"Welcome to life. Algae I James Miller your host and a licensed psychotherapist. I am looking forward to spending this time with you as we learned some pretty amazing life lessons. Let's get started. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to listen to this. Show when you're done listening. I hope you take a minute right. Quick Review on whichever radio podcast platform. You've heard this show. Your insights will help other to be inspired and encouraged. I have a great show for you. Today I'm going to help you. Instantly change your mood I also be interviewing Kathleen Riley. Who has the unique ability to teach men experiencing midlife transition how to maximize her impact and become their authentic self for more information about Kathleen please? He's visit Kathleen Riley Dot Com. I have some exciting news. Did you know that I'm on the radio three times a week. You May on the same station on Tuesdays at one thirty PM. Friday's at nine thirty A.. M. and Saturday at twelve thirty pm you may also hear me anytime on Iheartradio as well as an all the other major pod casting platforms including itunes spotify Google play stitcher and many others simply search for the show name James Miller life or simply go to James Miller life allergy dot com. If you're anything like me you'll love to read life policy. Oh Gee and audible dot com have partnered to offer you an incredible opportunity audible is offering you one free book download with a Free Thirty Day trial. This is perfect for those of you. You who loved to read but often don't have time to enjoy your favorite pastime. Go to James Miller lifelock dot com forward slash audible to start your free trial. They have over one hundred eighty eighty thousand books from all genres. So I'm pretty confident. Your favorite authors books will be there go to James Miller life policy dot com for slash audible and start listening to your favorite book today day once again go to James Miller follow dot com forward slash audible to get started today. How to instantly change your mood? We've all woken up on the wrong side of the bed and it feels like we struggle for the rest of the day in previous episodes. I've talked with you about creating reading two different scales to give more insight into what's happening inside of you. The two scales look like this on a scale of one to ten. Ten is the best you feel and one is the worst. You feel you rate your emotional wellbeing and your physical body so if you woke up I'm wrong side of the bed. It's really more of your emotions that are going to be lower. So if you do that. Internal scale probably be about a three or four but your physical body would probably be about an eight or nine. You're probably fine so if you decide to stay in bed all day. Unfortunately your emotions dictated. What your physical body can do fast forward to run noon at work? You do these scales again and realized that you're once let's again. Your emotional rating is low. And you think well what happened. Why was so low and then you recall the argument you had with her co worker or the argument argument? You had with your spouse in realize that you've carried that anger that frustration into the present. Moment what you have this awareness then you ask yourself well. What am we're GonNa do if this happened earlier in the day and I'm still feeling this way and I don't want to? How do I change this? Did you know on average. It takes about six healthy experiences to to cancel out one. Negative experience so consciously. If you're ruminating on what happened earlier you've created this whole foundation of why you're frustrated right now the reason why it takes about six positive things to counteract one negative thing because a negative thing we think about a lot we think about what the person said we think about how they were standing gene. We think about the location we process every detail of it it becomes visceral in our mind and because of that that is why unpleasant memories are so strong in her life. Nothing of funny memory. The reason why that doesn't stick out to you as much because when a situation like that happens you enjoy it and then you move on. You don't process it or think about it. The way you think about an unhealthy experience you just sit with the emotion and you enjoy it so the way to counteract an unhealthy experience is when you think think of a positive or healthier memory you have to process it the way you would process a negative memory and that would entail you thinking of the tone which somebody said something you think about how they said it think about why they said it you think about what your response was you think about where the location was the more detail you give do it. In your mind's eye another words you use your internal five five senses to really experience it to find that your mood instantly changes and that's a really good trick to practice of how to counteract a negative emotion in the moment is by focusing on it the same way you would negative emotion. The more often you do that the more successful you'll be too easily counteract. You're unhappy mood. You're going to hear a fantastic interview with Kathleen. Riley really helps men who are struggling with midlife how to rewire the brain so they can live in this continual state of contentment. ooh I want to take just a quick moment to thank you. All continually support and listen to James Miller life. Algae I am so blessed and honored by your continuous support however. I want to make sure that you don't miss out anything exciting. That's happening over here. So good or James Miller lite follow dot com or DOT DOT TV and sign up for the free weekly recap. Each week I will send you an email. which has all the latest radio episodes UBE episodes magazine articles and self help products addicts specifically for you once again go to James Miller follow dot com or a life algae DOT TV and sign up for the free weekly recap in my guest today is Kathleen Riley who has a unique ability to teach men experience midlife transition how to maximize impact and become come their authentic self welcome to my show Kathleen thank you so much for happy? I'm excited I am as well. Now I saw the you used to work in Washington. DC Easy yes. Yes I did so I was in economic policy research That was originally. Finally my my major and Undergrad was ECON and finance and so then I went to go work in. DC right after college or maybe six months after and and it was not for me. I actually I don't know if you knew this for the next few from DC. I just moved down to take your back. Gosh I'm like I know exactly where she's talking about. What's he's done but it's interesting though to hear about your your major the economics versus what you do now? They just seem completely different. How did you realize that what you went to school for wasn't necessarily what you wanted to do? So Oh I was in. I loved what I've studied right. It's it sounds ridiculous. Like economics is super fascinating and so our financial markets markets and I loved reading about it and studying it but obviously being subsidized to sit around and read books and theorizes completely. Different Pin apply. Apply it real world. So when I got out into the real world I found my work was not stimulating at all. It was super monotonous. Just I mean it was like shifting from all all this intellectual stimulation and an inquiry and all of that over to a incredibly mind-numbingly boring position and So and it was not there wasn't a creative aspect about it It's just. It was just extreme. They will not miss and and under stimulating and so from there. How did you say you know what I need? Something different I i. I'm going to my mind with boredom. What did you do so so if you want me to address a little bit the transition from there into what I do now in college and and during my time in DC I had Very severe anxiety panic and so And so that was that when when I kind of got on the past right around the time of being in DC to really heal that. That's that's when I really got into narrow pasta city which is rewiring certain emotional behavioral patterns in the brain right through repeating gene the same optimal emotional experience over and over and over again. And by that I mean you know peacefulness palm safety right and those are experiences that are completely antithetical to you. Know a highly stressed out and and the ANC nurse system right and Subaru. That work I mean it was. It was really amazing. I I loved it and then after that I got involved in some health coach chain and and then from there I thought oh my gosh I really need to start working with people who also struggle with inside. And that's one of the great things is because when we teach what we also need to learn as well it really solidifies for one on what reteaching but it also helps us understand it so much more visceral level so we can we become what we teach exactly exactly and it's so much more potent oaten when when when that when you really had that that exact experience yourself and so then So he's working. With people who struggle with severe anxiety and design a really really effective eight week program to rewire chronic chronic anxiety and panic senate. And and then as I moved into that work I began to work. More and more with men Going through midlife transition and I I had I had realized early on before I started my kind of entrepreneurial journey that I I knew it's crazy music because when you talk to entrepreneurs they always say well I had this general feeling but I didn't know how it was going to manifest right so I had this real calling always to work with men in in mind set transformation and mindset shift right But I didn't really know how it was going to manifest in so then later as I started working with more and more male clients in the anxiety niche than it was I found it extremely fulfilling. They four amazing clients and then I really redirected focused on midlife transition oriented obstacles in the mindset. So yeah well. Let's first talk about the MIDLIFE male midlife transition give us an idea of what that looks like. Someone militias may not understand what that is right so so Essentially it's you know it's it's not the most delightful time right and and so what's what's happening is first of all people can there. There's three types of of sort of umbrella challenges one. It is difficulty with health to difficulty with relationships. Free Marriage etcetera three is difficulty with career and and the the often the clients that I work with their their primary challenges are ooh disillusionment rate with with day to day life day. They often Buick Very robotic sort of monotonous Daily routine and then and then also what. What's really what I integrate a lot into my work because well is? There's a a distinct disconnect from their child like self right and and those critical childlike experiences for example excitement. Right Joy. Focal curiosity makes sense if they're if they feel like they're living a life of monotony for mediocrity robotic activities. Well yeah well that's exciting. That's not joy filled at all. Of course yeah that makes sense dockery Hackley and there's a kind of trading off which is which is something I began to notice and also what propelled me into to my work. There's a kind of trading off for for men between you know that sort of twenties period of life into shouldering you know the responsibilities and some burdens of adulthood right in and and there are a unique their unique burdens. That I feel like men have have to bear in. And so there's there's definitely a trade off of those childlike qualities not not for everyone Specter correct. Yeah Yeah Right. And then and then there will be there'll be some other challenges like chronic stress a cluttered mindset right. Where do I go now? I've got all these thoughts and ideas about where I should go for what she do for the next chapter of my life and I'm kind of spinning benning. And so they need clarity on that. But how would that manifest or how how would it make sense to say people are experienced this but not neither experience all these thoughts. How would how does it look to the world? So let's say someone's experiencing that and I'm watching them. What does that look? Like it's it's a decline in fulfillment. It's the decline in meaning and purpose to to your work right to your personal life. Sometimes it can be one or the other sometimes spoke both but generally it's one or the other it can be a lack of drive right because if if nothing is fulfilling filling exciting in curious and and you don't have that next goal and the drive to get there that's GonNa show right. It's IT'S GONNA show and mild forms of depression so them probably Samir to build in frustration. Probably a little bit more quick to express anger frustration mm-hmm. That's how I was here from from a psychological standpoint And also probably would definitely could definitely see how. Yeah Yeah I was I was I started working with a new client a few like a week ago to ago and he particularly really comes to mind because he was struggling with a lot of irritability a lot of negativity right lot of cycling negative thoughts. That just bury Harry you they just they don't that's will extreme. But they champion and they dampen and they dampened and so yeah so there was irritability negative pretty mild depression Just you know a lot of angers. There was a water serve anger coming out in his relationship shepherd home and so yeah I would even hearing this and I'm GonNa serotype here so anyone listening. Please understand this is a very broad serotype but I would assume zoom that most people who have most people midlife their physical health is probably not where it could be once in this to- serotype because if they're working so much if they've invested so much than there are thought life is going to manifest in their physical comportment to their physical presentation so I'm assuming that if people people are experiencing this midlife transition irritability this frustration. Whatever it might be that's probably gonNA show up and maybe not being physically active? Maybe being a little overweight the era type the reason I say that is because if there are other areas in our life that we don't necessarily feel fulfilled. Then that becomes the overarching aspect of. I'm I'm not filled in my career. I'm not fulfilled in health and fulfilled in my my relationships and so it seems like it would be a broad spectrum or umbrella type of transition transition which is negative transitioning unhealthy transition which would permeate all areas of one's life. Yeah absolutely and again. It's you know there. There are three different types in usually one person suffers most in one particular category. But but yeah yeah the physical Giving up you know you're you're you're physically being in shape and having high high level energy and and feeling competent about yourself so physically attractive individual That that can definitely go by the wayside as you. As you begin accumulating more and more responsibility and and and some people can take on a lot of responsibility at home and at work and not get stressed out. Some people can't sit there. Is that stress factor. Obviously that you know in intensifies weight gain and usually affects sleep which even further intensifies weight gain anyway. So so yeah and then and then yeah and then you have that low self esteem around your physique as well but but the important thing in in either of those three categories the important thing is addressing mindset and the underlying Obstacles that are kind of you know perpetuating that cycle psychology what we teach is whatever we perceived to be true determines what we feel our feelings determine what are our body responds. And so you're really addressing the cognition thoughts or the hard wire of pause effect with people. It's absolutely wonderful. Tell us more about the eight week program that you have absolutely so so. It's it's it's mine entire eight week. Program is based on three audio practices. Each day right that you will do each day and and I kinda run through the steps of developing it. I will do like A. Qa Informative chat. I get to know you you get to know me I figure out if you're a good fit and then from there than we do I call it just a deep dive strategy call so I get into the real nitty gritties in what I do. Is I really figure out. What are your goals? What what what are the biggest shifts that you wanna see and then I get all the necessary information into the develop and design that eight week program and and on average? There's a twenty minute warning audio practice. Thursday twenty minute evening one at a ten minute afternoon one And I've worked with you know. CEOS people were in extremely demanding careers the errors and and this seems to be a sweet spot in terms of time demand but essentially what you're doing is you're you know. If if if stress is a big issue for you than we're going to focus on developing a peaceful mindset right and perhaps and usually there will be a couple more are you know obstacles that you want to rewire as well but you know for all intents and purposes. I'll use the example of stress. So what we're GONNA do is we. We are going to find a period in your life. Maybe it was a memory from when you were really young or in your twenties or thirties. Or maybe even just just a couple months ago where you felt that intense deep and powerful experience of peacefulness. Right 'cause most. Everyone has one memory in their life when they felt heap useful. And and so what what we do as human beans is. We have these experiences in in our lives that are actually like pieces of gold in terms of rewiring experience the world. And so what we can do is I can walk us through bringing that memory up diving deep into the Actual feeling of peacefulness intense. Next should have exactly the end. N N M my God. It does such an amazing job retraining the brain when you just focus on the feeling and not the words the words take you there but what you WanNa do is just entrench yourself both in an ocean of this feeling of peacefulness. And so you WanNa make it very intense and expanded make it a full body and mind mind experience in doing that You know those three times each day it is. It's profound because as the brain continues to develop new neurons right little baby. Neurons that can be formed and customized to support a certain mindset over that the this this process take six to eight weeks over that period of time the brain is developing new neural pathways to support that feeling peacefulness us right and so by the time. We're finished working together you know. We'll we'll have developed that long term mindset of peacefulness us Maybe confidence another thing. You wanted to work on self confidence and then maybe excitement right And so so as you as you build any building you build much like a roadway us over and over again you know like learning learning a new instrument or or language You you deepen. And create those those those pathways and you create create that experience that feeling of peacefulness on an automatic a basis. Every day. I love it from neurological standpoint. So you my listeners. Thursday here in this right now I want to piggyback off. Kathleen saying from a neuropsychologist standpoint. What we're actually doing what she's doing is when you create when you return to a previous memory restate when you sit without emotion just like I said earlier thoughts determine your feelings your feelings determine your body experience so we sit without emotion you generate a feeling of apiece or happiness or excitement? What you're doing is you're creating certain neuro chemicals and there's no chemicals then allow for that neuropathy to happen because they're firing off more and more so when you sit with a certain memory it creates more dopamine creates more Serotonin oxytocin there certain neurotransmitters that happen and so when you sit with that it actually wants it allows you to enjoy even more which gives you more endurance to enjoy that emotional more a little bit more more and pretty soon? It's it's easier for you to recall that emotion because you've been able to sit with it so long and the byproduct of a feeling that allows you to have the reward of having all those feel good chemicals articles course through your body exactly. Yeah that's wonderful that your clients are able to experience it and from what I've read you've had some pretty good success. Yes yes yes actually. I do I have I brought one short quiet testimonial And and and I can read that it's so quote Kathleen Program is hard to put into words because in all around. Transformation is hard to describe. I can start by saying that. I've retrained my thoughts and created a childlike mindset. Don't worry free much happier and I am reliving that experience as a child when I used to ride bikes and felt that sense of safety freedom. We don joy and aliveness when I used to feel life acutely in in most ways. This is the happiness program in the way that I was once happy like a child sake not an end quote. And he's yeah. He's his his studio sixty sixty now. That's amazing Kathleen congratulations. I'm sure that feels good for you as well. I know now I thought I would try this any day. I would. I would trade in economic policy. Ah that is hysterical. Ira Do that as well. Kathy rather just GonNa ask you pleasure having you on my show today if my list defending more efficient about you and all the amazing things. You're doing work review. Where are they find? There's information online so I'll give two pieces of info one is you can find a bunch of free trainees. Content turn at 'em dot m. e. forward slash am number four coach. Co A. C. H. and then And then also you can find my website which is Kathleen K. A. T. H. E. N. R. E. Y.. Dot Com Caffeine. Thank you once again for fantastic pass against Michigan State. I really enjoyed this talk. Laura thank you I also want to thank you my listeners. For Tuning in today please subscribe to this radio. Show ever portal. Join me today also. Please go to my website where you may sign up for the free weekly Recap Watch. My Youtube episodes read the articles written specifically for you. Purchase my previous guests itself health products. If you like to work with me be a guest on or advertise on this show visit. James Miller Life Dot Com for sure to follow me on all social media platforms under the name. James Miller life except for twitter. which is James M life? Algae once again. Thank you so much for your support and I'll talk to you soon.
Tate's Bake Shop: Kathleen King
"Hey so for the past few weeks. I've been asking you to consider a donation to your public radio station and the idea behind. It isn't just ask for money but to ask ask for your support because public radio stations depend on your contributions. It's how they can broadcast news programs and shows like this one on their airwaves. So so if you can please consider donating by going to donate dot. NPR Dot org slash built and thanks. They at driven my business. Six hundred thousand dollars in debt. I realized even though I was fired and had no job I was responsible for for one third of that debt and all the money that the company had was gone and I had to fight them. I had to get free of them. I had to get my my business back from NPR. It's how I built this show. Innovators entrepreneurs idealists and the stories behind the movements. They don't come. It is an odd today. Show how Kathleen King started out selling cookies from her family's farm stand nine cents. A bag then spent the next. I four decades building a brand that eventually sold for half a billion dollars. It's hard hard for me to think of a more simple and elegant enterprise than eliminates. It's kind of like a laboratory where you can test out a whole bunch of hypotheses. He's around marketing and price structure and human psychology take for example the experience of my own children their first lemonade stand was just lemonade dollar glass and did fine. They made about forty bucks. The second lemonade stand sold lemonade and freshly bakes cookies. Two dollars for a lemonade and a cookie and did better than cleared about seventy five dollars but the third stand had have the lemonade and cookies. But also a hand-drawn sign hanging from the table. That read organic hand made lemonade. They added an additional sign. That said twenty percent of all profits go to the humane society of the United States. Now that lemonade stand totally. Crushed rushed it. Passersby would literally hand them five and ten dollar bills and tell them to keep the change in a span of just two hours my then eight and a six year old cleared one hundred and fifty dollars in profit and donated thirty bucks to the humane society. That's two hundred and seventy five percent growth between between lemonade. Stand one and three now. Imagine doing this every day for an entire summer depending on how many hours and weeks you work you could at this rate realistically clear about five thousand dollars by Labor Day which is kind of what Kathleen King discovered as an eleven year old girl except upped her cookie. Hustle turned into a business called. Tate's bake shop that Kathleen would eventually sell for half a billion dollars. Tate's cookies Giza's brand now owned by Monde lease the huge food company. That also owns oreos chips Ahoy Ritz crackers but long before any of this happened happened. Kathleen started a small bakery and Southampton on the eastern end of Long Island in New York for twenty years. She grew her little bakery into to a sustainable business. Until as you will hear she lost almost everything in a bad partnership deal and so at the age of forty two Kathleen lean had to start all over again and even though she grew up in the Hamptons Kathleen did not exactly cross paths with a glamorous celebrities and rich financiers who go there in the summertime. Her mom was a nurse and her dad ran the family farm where he raised chickens and cows when I was growing oppose about thirty acres and my dad used to sell the milk could to shrank dairy which was a local dairy and on the cows. We had maybe be. I don't know thirty or forty so everything was small chickens. Maybe a thousand nothing nothing. Big How many gamut of kids in the family. Only I'm the youngest of four two brothers and one sister. We had a lot of responsibility. We were nurtured emotionally. But we grew up in the sixties. You fall down. You know you get up cry. I'll give you something to cry about and you all work on the farm. That was just expected we did it. It was just given there was. They weren't options though occasionally. A brother or sister would escape from time to time to go. Do something fun but I had to collect eggs eggs and pick vegetables and wait on the costumer. We did everything there. The interesting part of my growing up was we didn't have any role playing because my mother was ahead of her time so we had to work outside and inside the girls and guys the boys had to do the same thing was what was your dad's business sustainable. Was it enough to support the whole family or were there. Were there times when you know was a struggle no thank. It was a struggle. Yeah my mom. She worked and she brought A consistent paycheck into the house nurse. If you like my father used to barter like you know a half half a steer to the dentist to get our teeth down and we had everything we need it. We just didn't we didn't go to restaurants and gone vacation. Yeah tell me about baking at your house. I mean you're on the farm. You've got responsibilities and chores that you have to do was speaking of just something that was going on the house all the time. My sister and her friend were baking brownies and Brad and cookies and selling them at the farm stand. They turned fourteen. They wanted to get a real job so they could be boys so they want it until the local ice cream parlor and I was the youngest so my dad said okay come. You're you're gonNA start doing these cookies. You'RE GONNA start making cookies and sell them at the farm so he can buy your own clothes for school next year and Blah Blah Blah. So I was just like okay and I just started baking like we. Didn't you know nobody was caught then. Nobody taught us you know and and respiratory you're using on the back of the Nestle chocolate chocolate chip beck the toll house trump right. Yeah and did you sell directly to people passing by in their cars or anything like that. Yes we had a farm stand in the yard a matter of fact what is baking cookies. I would look out the window and see customers pull up in the night. Run outside. Wait on the customer and then sometimes I'd have to say the customer. I'll be right back. I gotta run in because I knew my cookies. We're going to be done around that time and I just baked them. I put them in a plastic bag and put him on the counter. So did you get to keep the earnings from cookies more. Yeah the beginning. My Dad said he'd would buy all the ingredients and everything. I just made the cookies and made all the money you and then as I started selling a lot of cookies he said we need to discuss our arrangement. And you have to start buying your own ingredients and But I always got. I always got the eggs for free by the way I make my kids. Pay Me for the ingredients for the lemonade stand. Is that horrible. No that's what you should do. Unfortunately people don't don't do that anymore. I mean I wanNA lemonade. Stand sometimes where I see kids and I'm like why are you selling Newman's own which should be making your own. You get a niche. You get a niche. Get one step above the others all right so you are So you're making cookies farm stand but yet but what accounts for the fact that you were increasing the demand for them was increasing because they were really good and it just started to spread but what was so special about them. Did you change the recipe. Well when I was eleven I was Probably measuring a little haphazardly and then created the cookie. The way I liked it. I don't like cake cookies at all or thick cookies and I made them. They were like five inch diameter at least because back then. That was before supersizing so I wanted to do something that drew attention to them. mm-hmm so I made them very large and they were thin. They weren't crisp like Tastes are today but they were. They were thin with a little Chris Chewy Shuey and people would drive there sometimes just for the cookies so as I got older. The amount of sales grew so by the time I got into high high school. I was baking in the summertime. Seven days a week ten hours a day in my mom's kitchen and she just allowed me to sprawl all over so by the time you're high-school baking cookies at the stand Like were you making significant pocket money or even more than pocket money. Oh Yeah yes. I bought my own car car. You know like the second hand car like kind of car you pay for two thousand or two thousand dollars. Yeah and You on this summer I could earn like five grant. Wow and You just stand there all day and and You know kind of like fueled my loaner side a little bit because I never had like a real summer job where there were lots of kids and people did things and they went out and all those things I just to the kitchen picking cookies all right so so. You're so you're actually making some serious dough people coming by buying cookies. Just you know and I'm assuming that when you were eighteen when it was time for you to college. Did you didn't think that your life was going to be the life of a cookie. Baker that you were going to go to college figure out what you're GONNA do and and sort of get a quote unquote real job right. Yeah you know. I went to Two Years College Coppola Skill. I started in a restaurant management and just kind of went to school and I don't know I had ideas in my head. Oh well maybe I'll work on a cruise ship. You know 'cause I thought I might like to travel. I hadn't and then I graduated in nineteen seventy nine and went home to make cookies again for the summer. Because that's where I could make the most money. Sure my mom said That summer so so what are your plans and I was like. I don't know and she said well. This is your last summer making cookies here. Why did you save say that because my mother was also like my father independence and standing on your own feet? That was everything and and then she said you. I know there's a bakery for rent in town so I went to the bake shop and it was a fully equipped bake shop. Two bakeries had been in their prior to me both have both failed and so I looked at it and I was like Oh this is perfect. This will work for me so I just rented it. I needed to work and my goal when I opened the shop was really to to rent an apartment and Get a car and by the way how I mean. How much money did you need to due to start this bakery did you? Did you have any Miami. Did you have some savings yet. I I had five thousand or so that I saved before I rented and and I had to borrow some money and of course I couldn't get it from the bank so my brother lent me a little bit of money because I had to buy My chocolate chips was two thousand dollars and the store wasn't pretty. I took old barrels from the farm and I painted them and turn them upside down and put plywood. I went on top and I made a tablecloth and put that on top and then my labels I wrote by hand. And what did you call shop started out as Kathleen cookie but then to expand. I changed the name to Caffeine's bake shop because I sold more things than just cookies. And how B before you actually opened it it to the public will I think I rented it in like November and then I opened in May so what I did that winter was just get things prepared as as much as I could and develop the recipes on a larger scale so I did blueberry muffins. Carrot Cake Apple Pie like like the top ten ten typical American baked goods so may of nineteen eighty year. Like twenty one twenty two years old something like that. Yes twenty one. And and it's just you and you open the shop. I opened the shop. My sister-in-law a Robin King She helped 'cause she was working on the Pie. She had a baby at the time. And my niece Christina. We used to just put her in a box the floor at a blanket in it and you know my father was my pr guy. I saw anyone that went to the farm. He would say you know. My daughter's open a big shop. Bump up am aired back then print ads and the you know the community was always very supportive of me. So people came that summer of nineteen eighty right all of a sudden you get the summer crowds into the hands. The House business. It was good I did really well and right before memorial weekend. Florence fabric came in from the New York Times. The the theme is food writer. Florence fabric. Gas You just happened to come in randomly. Yeah because she lifts out there she may have been shopping there prior to coming in and requesting an interview view. Did you even know she was now. I have a New York. Times was like what city people read so a couple weeks later. This article gets published in The New York Times. Yeah do people start to clamor to come. Try your cookies. They did they did. And that was not expected. Because I didn't know the power of the times and people are telling me like what do you mean you're GonNa be New York Times you you need to and I would be like really. Oh okay you know. I have so naive so that it was So you've got this pretty good summer crate. Summer I but in the summer ends and Pino a lot of people go home and people come for summer jobs sleeve What would happen the fault is your business? Start to slow down significantly. Oh yeah the business slows down tremendously and then weekends are okay and and you know for a while. Oh you're really grateful for the rest. And then things get progressively slower. And I thought I needed to change that so I went into the the city because that's where most of my customers were from and just had my cookies in a shopping bag and just went door to door to places you know some customers would tell me Oh good about do Chico disabled or go to Dean and Deluca your customers were coming out to the Hamptons. We're saying you know you really should make these available in the city. Yeah and and I remember I remember walking into Balducci cold calling and I'd be like Hi. Have Cookies maybe you want to sell some and they were like yeah. Let's see what she got and they would they try them and they were like yeah. Bring me one hundred bags next week and then I go into another store and someone would not be so nice and he would say you know. My mother made cookies like this or may better but you know just walk out. I've always had confidence with my cookies. Not so much myself all the time when I was younger but with my cookies I was like. You're just wrong. So you see you're going to Manhattan pitching the cookies. You're getting some some places that say sure we'll take him yeah So what do you do you go back to Southampton and you start just cranking out the cookies and just packing them up in like bags. Yeah with my my hand printed label. which now I got printed? It was all handwritten but then I gotta printed. I thought that was major because now you have to sit at night right them all but how. How would customers know to buy your cookies like they? I had a choice of because remember. This was the early eighties. There wasn't competition like there is now you know finding a homemade cookie product in the stores. I was A great find you know. People recognize them from the Hamptons and and new them. Then and then you know word of mouth spreads and that's how most of my career was established. Was it at this time. Where the recipe for the chocolate chip cookies started to resemble assemble? What we know of? Tate's cookies today. Yeah because after a couple of years with Kathleen cookie people. I feel didn't want everything is big and so I just started making them smaller and when I started making them smaller that's how they came out did just came out krispy. Yeah and I was like all these are good. Would you know when I used to create new products at the bake shop. I used to watch my staff taste the product if they tasted assistant and they would be like. Oh this is good. And they walked away and didn't turn around and come back for another bite. I said it wasn't good enough. But what were what were you doing differently. We're you adjusting the butter were you making brown butter. Were using more Brown. Sugar was it that you were doing You know I I can't really tell you everything but there's no you know this there's one little trick nothing major but I can't tell you that it is fair enough. Listen it's a half half a billion dollar brand. He can't protect product. I know I know all right so you start selling these cookies To the shops in New New York City. And is that like does that. Become a significant generator of revenue for you. Yeah because off season is long you know. A Hampton season is so short and people think. Oh I've always making money hand over fist. I'm like well. Now take that two months of money and you've got to survive for the next so so I started building my brand mourn in the city and was selling. That's when it was busy so I would be selling their all winter long and then of course in in the summer I had to maintain it so I I got another van or so and then I had hired drivers and they would deliver. Tell me what you're what your average days were like when you were all twenty two twenty three. When I first opened my first of a bake shop I would go to work like two talk in the morning and then bake and then open the store and then get home at like eight at night? Then I changed my hours. Because that wasn't very healthy. I would drive to work at like two in the morning wanting to hit a tree so I go to the hospital and rest because you know it's very depressing driving to work at two o'clock in the morning and everybody's light Office and you know. They're in their bed so then I changed my schedule but I worked eighteen hour days six days a week. It was not not easy. It was I gave up. My use. Really wasn't overwhelming for you. I mean you were baking and if you weren't baking I'm I'm assuming you were like doing the business stuff. Yeah yeah it was really hard. Yeah what's really hard but I was always kind of liked just you. I keep working harder. You know let's just try to figure it out stay afloat. What was the thing that kept you going pride right? I didn't know how to say I can't do this. Pride in the other side of the coin is the fear failure. I didn't have a fear of failure. I just had more of the fear era. Saying I can't do this but you just told me that there were times where you want to hit a trees. You could go to the hospital on sleep right right so I mean a part of. You felt like you couldn't didn't do this that. This was not sustainable right but I just kept working. Because that's how kind of like how I was raised. We just keep going. Yeah just keep keep pushing so as you kind of this business was was kind of growing. I guess There is a building in Southampton that becomes available available for purchase. Yes and you decide to purchase this to kind of bring your bake shop into that new building was that that was that because you had to expand you. Were you needed more space or yeah I was outgrowing my current location. I didn't like having a landlord and so kept my mom says well you know. There's a building for sale up the road and I was like all right and she's well. It doesn't hurt to call so I met with the owner. It was three hundred fifty thousand dollars for the building and he wanted fifty thousand dollar down payment and he would he himself would hold the mortgage for three hundred thousand at like nine and a half percent interest back then right and I had forty thousand dollars saved from the business from sales from the business and I had to somehow find that ten and my family didn't have any money and and then my father used to help this older woman with her chickens. She had chickens in her yard. I guess so. He helped her from time to time. And one I was looking for the ten thousand dollars she died died and she left my father ten thousand dollars. Wow and he lent it to me talk about luck right. Yeah all right so you have now a pretty significant mortgage to pay down right on this. So what did you for the for Your Business. Did you have to really ramp up sales to cover your it costs. I did I had to. I knew I had to double my business in order to pay for the mortgage and my business plan back then was okay I I can do that. That was my plan. Or is he start out Sort of early to mid eighties right. Mrs Fields Exploding all over shopping. Ping Malls in America There's famous Amos a couple other national brands. That are starting to come about. What do you think it was I mean about about your cookies was that it was in the Hamptons and people on vacation and it was sort of a goto place or or what? Well you know it was was kind of like a goto place because it was something that was part of their part of people's weekends. I mean I have kids that are fully grown and married. Now that come in and say Oh me on I I remember them I. They were raised on my cookies The cookies thin and crispy delicious. They were different from Mrs Fields Yields and David's cookies. But just a nice concept but more of a fad. You know they were hot served off the tray type of cookies and I always thank. How can they grow? Because you can't eat their cookies cold young they're only good warm and now you're really stuck so all right so you are kind of it. Sounds sounds like like the business was growing. But it wasn't really your you didn't have a plan for to grow just kind of organic. Yep Slow Growth. This this was your business. If this was a lifestyle business it was a you're able to pay rent and even save some money and put it back into the business and did you start to actually actually. was there a point. Where in those days in the eighties where you started to actually earn even more money for yourself and even your parents earned? Oh yeah but that wasn't hard break break because they weren't making a whole lot of money right and so with with your kind of growing the the growth of the business were able to buy a house and and all those things yes I I bought. I bought a little tiny house in the village. I paid the mortgage off from my family's farm and you you know I started getting time off. I'd get like a day off and then I had two days off and then I had weekends off and could go on vacation Dan so basically Kathleen for almost twenty years. Yes you're running the bake shop. You were distributing the cookies mainly to Manhattan Manhattan or a little bit beyond their no beyond to also demand Hatton and the Long Island and we we also ship cookies to Texas. We did some cookies in California. We did like spotting who were still small business pretty much. Oh Yeah and how did you feel about it did you. I mean you're now in your starting to approach her forties right. Did you feel like you needed a change rewarding to break or or did you. Yeah I you know I was like forty years old and the had made good money you know I had had gotten married and divorced. No kids now. I was forty so like the kid thing was over and the so I was like just me so I said well I wanNA have you know more of a life. I want to have less responsibility and and more time. So how are you going to do that. Well I decided I would if I could sell my company. That would be great but I wasn't really fully prepared to retire so I Took on two partners. I had a bookkeeper He didn't have any money but he was interested in Becoming a part owner of the company and and paying me off along the way and but he insisted along the way that his brother also become involved which I wasn't one hundred percent comfortable with. I didn't really know always brother but I don't know what happened why I just went along with it. What we go? Let me try to understand this. He says I WANNA buy into this this light and okay and so okay so he brings his brother in and they agreed to pay. You know I I read. It was about like nine thousand dollars. Total title they were not going to give you any this money upfront. They're GONNA pay you in installments. Over time right. Yes and so. If he and his brother you took over running the business and I still was part of it but I had more time. And then I was part of the hub the prophet system and then they would pay me for the business over time. I was like okay. That's okay because I don't need I don't anymore. I don't eat a lump sum of anything. Thank I'm I'm cold. So basically you kind of brought them in as partners and did they have a yes. What was the share? How did you divide up? We each had one third so so you said Yeah. I'll give you a third. I'll take a third. Your brother will have a third right. You guys run the business all but but that meant that you gave up two thirds of your business. I always thought one third one third one third was equal. I know it's ridiculously naive. What did anybody you go to a lawyer Mac Kathleen? I don't know if you want to do this or or were too seem totally like a great idea. No I I went to a lawyer and everything I did have like second guessing guessing and you know and I said well you know I I gave my word I you know. I can't back out now. I had no idea how horrible all the deal really was. What is it that they promised you that they wanted to do with the business? Because you're in the Hamptons grow. Grow the business obviously because it definitely had the potential essential do they have any experience doing this. They marketers were they. Do they have any of that. No and what was their plan. Wha what was the first thing that they did well I they started a you know at the bake shop and then they went to Virginia to put together a cookie. Plant production down there so they said Hey Kathleen we want to open up a production facility bakery in Virginia And you thought okay. Great you're fine with it. Yeah I thought I I thought it would be okay because the cookie business was what really was a value to expand on that so what happened. They moved down there and You stay up in Southampton and and I stayed in Southampton who just communicate by phone a couple times a day. Yes when did you. When did the tension start to arise a very early on because anything anything that they made are sent from? The factory in Virginia was horrible. Like terrible cookies will not go. We're not because these weren't good. The pies is were terrible. I and I wouldn't sell it. What was the issue? They using the head the recipes. They had the recipes. But that's like anything you can. Nobody was trained properly properly. Nobody was making anything correctly. Like an apple pie or member finding with a whole apple inside then. I'm supposed to be running the Southampton store and depositing the money which I'm doing but they they were meeting payroll but they weren't They paying any local vendors so I got frustrated and so the money that the bake shop made I started paying the local vendors because that they were the ones that were making taking the money from the bake shop you need vendors would call you and say Kathleen. We're not getting paid. What's going on? Yeah and I was like what because I always pay my my bills and They weren't weren't paying people. And then that's when I put my foot down and I started to pay the local people with the money that I was making. So when you I started to pay the vendors yourself What did the did your partner say? Oh they had a fit they were really angry and they and and I was like well. You know this is what I have to do. And then they I was supposed to go away for the month of January. This this is two thousand. Yeah on a cycling trip and a guy that Work down there. That moved down there to work down there that I knew he called called me and he said Kathleen. They're planning on coming up when you're not there and taking older getting rid of you so I didn't go on my trip and I waited and one day I came to work. They were there. I walked into the office and they handed me papers saying that I was fired when we come back in just a moment. Kathleen watched everything she built over twenty years collapse and how that turned out to be best thing that ever happened to her. Stay with us on garage and you're listening to how I built this from NPR Hey everyone just a quick thanks to two of our sponsors who help make this podcast possible I to capital one with the capital one saver card you can earn four percent cashback on dining entertainment that means four percent a milkshakes shakes with the kids and four percent music with your pals you'll also earn two percent cashback at grocery stores and one percent all other purchases now when you go out. 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Hey welcome back to how I built this guy rise so it's early two thousand and Kathleen and our business partners. The Webber's have basically had a total meltdown. They disagree unjust about every aspect of how the business is being run and so the brothers they fire her and of course they can do that because they control two thirds of the company anyway according to the records and media reports from the time Kathleen basically thought the brothers were running the business into the ground and she was devastated. I would just hold my breath the time I think that was the only thing I could control and so I started holding my breath and I was like a doan headlights. And you've you know there were moments that were really hard and then there are moments that were great. You know because I was just so grateful for waking up in a house house you know I just simple things of really going down to the bare bones of gratitude and because can always always get worse you know. Try to get to that place when you get down that far. You're not getting up and what about your business partners. I was the plan I had to fight them. I had to get my my business back and I wanted to get out of the contract contract because they had that point had driven my business six hundred thousand dollars into debt. I realized even though I was fired and had the job I was responsible for one third of that debt and all the money that the company had was gone so okay so at this point join the lawsuit start and this is a super complicated story as these things usually are but but sort of long story short You sue them. They sue you back right. This goes back and forth and this is just over like over two years after you. I formed this partnership with irs. Yes I mean wow breath how quickly that became a nightmare. Yeah but the community was incredible. People would call me. People sent me cards cards symptom. Courage moment The community really rallied for me. It became like a hallmark made for. TV be movie. And I said I can spend my days and focusing on the evil of two people or I can spend spend my days in focusing on all this kindness and support that I had no idea. was there for me. Meanwhile what's going on to the bake shop or people still still coming into work. People are still coming to work but a lot of people were not shopping there any longer. So the business was suckling down and what one hundred percent was going on there. I really don't know you know like some of the employees I would gather at my my house. They were very supportive. Yeah yes so I mean. Obviously this is a super stressful situation and everyone knows that like that litigation Asian can take years and of course lawyers are expensive so so I guess in the middle of two thousand you guys decide to settle you decide to settle with the brother Yes Ryan and as part of that settlement do dropped you gave them the name the name Kathleen Bake shop became there You got to keep cheap. The location Southampton the building. Well Yeah I always owned location. But unfortunately they were the tenants of the location action so I had to get them to release the lease to get them out. And then as you mentioned The business had like six hundred thousand dollars of debt at this point so Another part of the settlement I wrote about was was an agreement to divide up that debt three way. So that means of that total owed around two hundred thousand dollars. And and you lose your name your name your name use my no Kathleen Bake Shopper. Offer presumably Kathleen cookies that I felt that that must have been. How did you get to a point where you able? You're able to let that go. I don't know it's Kinda like how I opened the first bake shop. You just do you know you just you just do. Because what's your choice. Were or you bitter where you just I mean because I can imagine I would be right where you dislike seething I oh no I. I can't say bitter. I don't it's not it's not my nature either I was angry but which you know helped me to recreate a new brand. The but the whole point of starting this partnership with these two people was to give yourself some freedom and space to kind of you know enjoy. Life feud worked really hard at one eight years. I know going more than I bargained for. And so now you find yourself here like forty two. You're back in the situation situation where you have to if you want to Keep going completely start from scratch. You could be startup all over again. Yeah it was It was very draining I would say opposed to like rage and bitterness and all of that I was really kind of more. I walked around kind of even little bit in shock. I had felt that you don't every emotion that I could have ever had was stripped down to the bone and I don't know what I had left in me tooth fully and I didn't have any choices this is like I couldn't go get a job anywhere else because I didn't know how to do anything else I just had two years of college And the things that I didn't know how to do. I used to hire people to do so really. I didn't have a choice but to start again and do what I knew. That's that's how I did it so you you decide that you're going to you're gonNA reconstituted business and by the way. Keep your old employees. Yes and so what. What were you going to call it? Tate's bake shop and how did that. What were the name? Come from. Tate's it was my dad's name was just a Nickname he called him that so I wanted a name that was like a local name that that was genuine and integrity and kind kind and that was like my dad so I thought that that would fit nicely for the bake shop and I ended up. I had to get open for August because it was the season and the August. Sally could make some money. And you've been out of the kitchen and the business since February. You're locked out right. Yes well you. Oh my employees. They all rallied to work hard. And I Ended up remortgaging the bake shop because I had had paid off. Yeah because it was a fifteen year mortgage so thank God for that. I- remortgage the bake shop. So I got some money so I can have some cash flow to make more money and and then I ended up hiring a business manager because I was in such financial trouble I needed to have a business creating income in this the business manager. Who who who was he and had you find him? His name was Michael Namie. He was in the city and he became my my business advisor. Sir which really was A Godsend for me because I am very instinctual but of course I make mistakes from time to time and and when you when you hired Michael to help you launch tapes were you. I mean after matchup of Hartford. who still kind of standoffish right? Because you've just gotten burned really bad I mean were there like trust issues there. No he was great. I was like he felt. I felt to me like a lifeline but it was safe because I could walk away anytime I want. You know. I wasn't bound by any contract or money or anything. I find not trusting people way too to exhausting and it's not the way I want to live my life so I was very very naive and I used to trust blindly now. I still trust everybody but I trust with my eyes. Open all right but now you have to reestablish your brand right as tate. It's the same cookie but you got to reestablish a brand new brand. I had to actually make a better cookie because I had to compete against Kathleen Bake Shop. So there meantime. Those guys are down Virginia with plans to take your brand that you'd spent twenty years building up and really Expanding that to were you did that cause anxiety for you did you think. Oh my God they're gonNa take my name my brand and they're gonna go all over the country people are GonNa think it's me no it because I don't think about what others are doing and I just had to think about what I had to do. And of course my goal was to take them down through goal was to beat them yes to be better. So did you continue on with your previous strategy of baking in the retail shop and baking for wholesale and mainly kind of gourmet shops in in major cities in the US. Yes and when Michael came on board we went through all the products and the products that had the highest margins is the ones we focused on selling so he just kind of really zeroed in on the cookies. You know starting Tate's was about surviving so you know when you're in a survival double mode those things. Those kind of decisions are hard. They just had to be executed. They just have to be done. So where were you guys. I mean. Did you start to expand their distribution. Yeah first of all I had to get. I had to get all of Long Island in New York City back because my whole story was so public. Some stores welcomed with open armed some stores stuck with the Kathleen's brand a lot of stores carried both right and that's how it shook out and then even when I was some vendors I had for twenty years and and when I opened up Tate's they treated me like I was brand new customer. Others were just so helpful and just said okay. I know you uh-huh uh-huh this forty thousand dollars. You know you pay that off when you can and and we're standby you you know it's amazing you know just the difference people it both just amazing so when you re launched the company is Tate. You had wanted to take a break in your life. You knew that was is not gonNA happen anytime soon because all of a sudden you gotta start up again and so were you back at hamster wheel back to those crazy long hours off only for a short time because when I opened tate's then I had a plan and I had a goal. And what was your plan will. What was the goal I? I had to have an exit strategy. My goal is to sell when I was fifty five. So you knew you reconstituted this thing and you relaunched it. There was a time horizon. Yes and you were thinking maybe some local business would put bite or something like that. No I thought I did think bigger than that and I didn't think as big as I went but you know I was going to sell it fifty five so I could retire her. I mean you're still a pretty small shop at this point right it's still forty or so employess When I first open tate's yeah and in those first few years of tastes like annual revenue? I mean I would say we might be started out Couple of million but as we start to expand I I couple years down the road. I rented a five thousand square foot additional kitchen and and then I needed to. We outgrew that and so then we needed. It's something bigger so I purchased a school in East moriches and you turn that into a bakery to start to bake more cookies. Yes way we turn that into a commercial kitchen I making it fifteen thousand square feet and then adding on at because we had space to it on and we add it on as as we needed and by the way your former business partners who have the name Kathleen Bake Shop. They were still trying to compete with you but But then I guess just a few years after the lawsuit and then the settlement they actually go out of business. Yeah I never even know what happened to them. You have no idea it would happen to them no. I don't know what happened with the name of the brand. Nothing I just doesn't exist as far as I know well. So was it pretty clear to you pretty soon after you launch. Tate's that you know this wasn't just about survival mode that this could actually grow. This could actually get bigger than than Kathleen's yes. Yes because that was my plan. But how are you going to do that. Because you know food companies The big guys right the General Mills Kelloggs and I mean they they have a huge distribution networks. They decide what goes on the supermarket shelves. Where were you guys? Negotiating and getting big companies companies to pay attention to you into agree to distribute. Put your stuff on their shelves. We'll that took time. I mean first of all we started where I we had our own trucks and we went for small guys with like ten to twelve th k us and then we would strategically pick areas of the United States that we were going to go sell Zell to start to build our foundation with upscale gourmet shops. That the first year when we were building our brand and then as we started to get bigger we went into into the second tier which was like the whole foods the fresh markets the you know Cinderella and how would you. How would you those meetings you would? I mean I'm assuming some buyers. Her whole foods may senior products at some of these smaller stores. Yeah I mean some some buyers W- you know would contact us You know Michael was also a great salesperson person so he helped negotiate some of those deals to get into various locations and because Michael was such such a great numbers guy and forecaster. We did then do every year he would say okay this. Here's the plan. I drew up three forecasts for you. We can into a B or C. If you do this route you'll make this. If you do this route you'll make this and if you did this route you'll make this. And then he would say which. Which route do you WANNA take? And and I would say okay this. This one works for me and then we would do it so as you recovery branding and growing again. I mean you started attention engine again. I mean I think Rachel Ray row like it was on her show she said just asking America and then Consumer reports voted Tate's bake shop at best cook reports. Yes did that you know two thousand eleven when when consumer reports called you the best America and after Gwyneth Paltrow Rachel rain. Most people are saying that about your cookies. Were the line starting to go out to shop. You know we're always busy like I can't say the lines out the door but we were always increasing. You know tastes you know had like thirty percent or more increase per year. Wow Yeah which is amazing. When when I guess when you start to get closer age fifty five you were serious? This really was your plan. You are sticking to this plan I am going to. I WANNA an exit. Yep and so how did who even begin that process. Who How do you what do you tell how? Do you put your business up for sale. Well you know my business matters and I we would discuss a lot and and and a lot of You know investment bankers. They're all watching. But this time around I was going to do everything right and I wasn't wasn't going to leave a penny on the table so I interviewed a couple bankers settled with TM capital in New York City. And they were basically a go. Could I take your company and say all right it's available and who's in rocketed to sell it and this is two thousand fourteen. I think run two thousand thirteen eighteen yard so they started to do that and because this was already a pretty strong brand name recognition it had value with their lots of bidders. Yes this was there was it will start off with like Like something like fifty people that showed an interest. We narrowed it down to like twelve. Both you know put in another bid and then it came down to like five. I I think that I think eventually a private equity or investment from Riverside but majority stake. Yes in the end We settled on Riverside and I ended up selling eighty percent of the company. Because I was really ready to retire. They paid one hundred million dollars for it in twenty fourteen. Yes who was that just insane to you I mean wow you started the set of farm stand nineteen seventy two hundred million dollars to. Did you even imagine that that's what it would go for. No you know it went for like twice for what I originally thought and I remember the closing over the telephone. I was in my own office. Everybody's on the phone and then it was over it was done and everyone's like okay. Yeah thanks bye and hi welcome to my office and I think I went home and made dinner. I don't know I was so you know kind of another deer in headlights moment. I mean I wonder Given the fact that you grew up in a pretty modest environment right watching the sort of the rich and famous come to the Hamptons You Know Uh when you were a kid. Suddenly you had a lot of money like you sort of become one of those rich people in in the hamptons right well. I didn't become that but other people thought I became that I thought I lived before. Really haven't changed the way I live Because I liked the way I live like I'm all about freedom and time. Yeah you know I can. I can donate more and I can be more generous. which is great great? The one nice thing is that I was able to buy my dream property of childhood that I never thought would have ever been an opportunity in my lifetime but other than that everything else is the same I like to ride. My bike highlight to wear jeans and a t-shirt I like to watch movies on my own. TV in a lot of stuff. You know it it creates a burden. I don't anything I can't use. I don't want anything afterguard. Just doesn't interest me I mean Kathleen. Think about this. For a moment you sold. His company majority stake in two thousand fourteen for one hundred million riverside. Four years later sold it to Mondays. the Orioles Zoe for half a billion dollars. Your brand this brand that you kind of reconstitute from the ashes is of this terrible disaster. Yeah I mean the the the irony of the crisis that you went through in two thousand is that without. You would've never built built tate's and you. You may not have become the kind of person who could build a company like tate's right. Yes that that that is true. I you know the the big disaster of my life was really became the greatest gift of my life and like when I started tate's weights. I said I'm not giving blood for this company because I did that already for Kathleen and I ended up standing there with nothing and the thing I regretted added. Losing the most was my youth. I worked my youth away. You can't get that back. You can't buy that back. It was quite an eye opener to realize lies. We are a society of feeling like we have to give up everything and sacrifice everything and work day and night in order to achieve and get ahead ahead but in the big picture. It's really not true. You have to do it for a period of time but the key point is knowing knowing when to let it go yes to create something from nothing requires that kind of occasion of day and night but a lot of it is is self driven of. Nobody's as good as I am. Nobody can do it as good as I can. And that keeps you trapped because you're too focused on all that emotional national attachment that comes with creating something from nothing and you were able to shed that emotional attachment with the disaster of the first business. I guess yes because I was basically stripped of everything when you think about all the work you put in sacrifice that you made and you no you talk about kind of giving up your youth like you had to kind of give that time up Given what happened in the exit and the incredible success that you that you saw do you regret it. You regret any of that. Because I think a lot of people listening would say no. It was all worth it. Would you say that's the case. No I've asked myself that Several times and sometimes when I see young people working like really really really hard like in the in the corporate circle going round and round I say to them you know. Try to always keep the balance because if I had to ask myself if I would do it all over again would i. I still don't really have an answer. Do you feel Kathleen like what happened to you. And and the success accessory company is due to the work you put into it. You're just relentless hard work or do you think that it had more to do with luck No it's it's not luck. I think it was more At worked really hard putting it together I never gave up. I never let its success. Get the best of me if anything not luck I think sometimes it was my destiny. I know I know Kathleen that to your folks pathway recently But they did get to see you achieve incredible success from from this cookie stand. Yes they didn't see the MONTO lease sale but they sort of the riverside sale. Put a think I mean. What did your parents think? I mean you were selling these cookies farm standing as a dairy farmer. What did they think about this? It's very funny you you know because you know I sold. It was in the paper and they never said a word about money. Not Out of word they just were like. Oh congratulations. I'm proud of you. To cockatoo. They were they never once mentioned and the money. My father always told me as I was being coming successful. Never forget where you came from being must. They must've been so so proud of you. They really were that's Kathleen King founder of Kathleen Bake shop up and tate's bake shop. Kathleen still likes to be cookies at home and she loves spotting tastes cookies out in the wild in fact a while well back up bike tour of the natch is trace parkway at what point or guide stopped to take a break. He reached into his backpack. Pulled out a mega tate's handed one to Kathleen and asked. Have you ever tried these cookies. They're amazing and please do stick around because in just a moment we're going to hear from you about the things your building but but first a quick message from one of our two thousand nineteen lead sponsors of how I built this Hiscox Hiscox Taylor's its policies to fit every business's very reese specific needs which may explain its ninety seven percents customer service rating. Get a quote or by at H. I. S. C. O. X. DOT COM Billy Irish low NAS EX and LIZ. Oh dominated the year in music but there was a lot more from twenty nine thousand nine that you might have forgotten. I'm Robyn Hilton. Join in pure music all this month is we look back at the defining artists trends and milestones from the past year. Listen to new episodes each week on. NPR's all songs considered bittered. Hey thanks so much for sticking around because it's time now for how you built. That and this week story starts at a restaurant in Denver where toss outhouse house was giving his wife a gift for their ten year wedding anniversary and I gave her the bag and she opened it up into goes. Where did you buy these? And at this point Thomas wasn't quite sure he got her the right gift and I said to you like him. It was a bracelet and a pair of earrings into goes. Yeah they're really cool. ooh Hoo so far so good into goes. So where'd you buy. I said I made them. He made them out of a tin can a bracelet and a pair of earrings. Thomas made for his wife ever tin can and to be fair. Thomas really meant this more as a gag gift but his wife. Emily actually liked the look the rings and she appreciated the Thomas made them in his garage just using a hammer and pliers and some tin snips out of a a lid. I cut it in half so there were two half circles. I've folded in the edges again. So they wouldn't be sharp folded them in on each other so they created. kind of a prism shape. Emily liked them so much that she wore them all the time and she started getting so many comments that she encouraged Thomas to try selling l.. Ing Them so we said how about we make a go of this canned goods thing. And that's why we call it. That's what emily mentioned right away. She said I think you're GONNA call your company canned goods at this point. Emily had a full time. Job and Thomas was a stay at home dad so in a spare time he worked on designs lions for more jewelry and he started to gather more raw materials. I'd walk through the alleys and candidates dig through people's recycling and fine nine different cans. WanNa buy anything new. He was really into this idea repurposing used cans and so after he hauled his neighbors cans back his garage. He began to realize that on the inside. They didn't all look the same like tomato cans as a brilliant copper color. There is a white color that is from coconut milk in. There's of gold all. These different colors inspired Thomas so he hammered out some bracelets and earrings brings different styles and shapes was a ribbon loop another was kind of like a fan and when he had about ten of them. He pitched them to a boutique owner in Denver. I I said okay for each piece we so give a can of food back to charity. And he said I'll take hundred visas the earrings and bracelets started to self help word spread and then Thomas began selling more jewelry in local stores and online and this year he and his wife expect to make about one hundred thousand dollars dollars and to donate four thousand cans of food to charity and since Thomas started canned goods about six years ago. He's made over ten thousand pieces at this point. I've touched every piece that we've sold. Thomas is still working out of the garage but he's hired four people to help them and helps to hire even more sin blow year from now we want to be in every major market around the country. And we're knocking on some national stores as upscale as Nordstroms if you want to hear more about canned goods or here previous episodes head to our podcast page how I built this. NPR Dot Org. And of course if you want to tell us your story go to build dot NPR dot org and thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there please do give us a review you can also write to us at H. I. B. T. at NPR DOT org. And if you want to send a tweet it's at how I I built this or at Cairo's our show is produced this week by Casey Herman with music composed by RUB teen Arab. Louis thanks also to Candice Limb Julia Carney Neva of a grant and Jeff Rodgers. Our intern is Sequoia Carrillo. And before you go a chest remind you to please consider donating to your local public radio station by December thirty. I because your gift helps bring public radio two listeners. Like you donate to your public radio station at donate dot. NPR DOT org slash built. And you've been listening to how I felt this this is n._p._R..
Ilana Glazer & Kathleen Turner
"Welcome to the Bravo clubhouse for the podcast addition watch what happens. Live with me Andy Cohen and she started in broad city. And she's the toughest brought in Hollywood watch what happens live with Kathleen Turner and a lot of Glazer. Now the on Everybody Watch whatever inside of your host Andy Cohen live in the Rabat's one guest who started romancing the stone and another loves getting stoned over over the course of my I guess career. She's UH countless killer performances including one turn as a serial killer. Mom catcher in Dolly Parton heartstrings. Premiering on Netflix afflicts November twenty second. Please welcome Miss Cathleen. The city we all FAM- and if I understand what she means she does. She's definitely house catcher in green eggs and ham on Netflix. Now now say hi to Alana Glazer and behind the bar not only the owner of Clementines Naughty and Nice creamery and Saint Louis but one of them was my neighbor growing up literally right next door so he probably has some Nadia Nice stories. It's about me. It is my friend Frank Ewbal and Tim Rocky away. Clementines creamery justifying just named best ice cream in the United States. And they're on Oprah's favorite things last very excited for you proud of that you're from St Louis and you can order it they ship. It's amazing Alana was so excited to be on with earner. I just WanNa give the opportunity to gosh over this icon and okay I like burst into Kathleen dressing room and I was like The H. Thank you for paving a path by existing but not only have you existed in industry for forty to order. Thank you better slab really thrived and you've continued to beat not only be yourself but continued to discover who that is. It is amazing and being vocal about your political views. Amazing amazing us being is then. Now we're going to link up and do some of the word we do together. I love it all right and love it. Okay that's these forever by the way. Don't forget that Ms Celine Dion will be joining us in the clubhouse for the first time ever next. Monday's that means they're dion your questions questions for Kathleen and a Lotta are coming in but before we get to those. Here's what three things. I am Szeswith tonight. I Kathleen is portrayed so many iconic roles throughout her career feels feels impossible to remember them all but we can try. It's time to play Kathleen credits. Forget it I'm going to present you with various movies and TV shows you gas gas whether Kathleen was or not okay. Okay was Kathleen in nineteen eighty. Three's the man with two brains now. Yes scum wing leaving nineteen ninety. Five's too long food. Thanks for everything Julie Newmar now no she was not okay. Kathleen in one thousand nine hundred ninety seven a simple wish. Yes yes she was. Was She baby geniuses. Zuma's yeah yes you ricky Friday in two thousand three now yes no oh she wants it on a dumb and dumber which she downward to own. Yes the Goudie Alana now no does. She was not was she in white chicks now which she no she was it was she and Marley and me. Yes she was thinking in in Vegas Sue got married Kathleen Kern character had the chance to right the wrongs of her pass. Oh Kathleen. I'm curious if you ever wish you could do the same. I may not be able to create a time warp. I do have a speed round of questions of challenging experiences from your past prior tired acting. What was your worst job my worse up? I was attempt at a Jewish travel agency during Passover season and everyone ruling was talking to me in Yiddish and they were all right What is the most embarrassing thing you've ever been caught hot doing in your trailer? I'm never telling anyone that. Utah The in two thousand twelve on this show. You said that Bill hurt was your her absolute best onscreen kiss. What was your worst onscreen kiss? Burt Reynolds what Phil was Switching channels really it was he sought why he just I rehearse with Michael. Cain yeah I supposed to do with Mike okay good toys yes well McCain got caught on jaws four okay short kept breaking down and so I was pregnant and I had a stop date not right so we got everything we could without him and then finally the producer went and hired and he couldn't kiss. Yes not a good that mustache. Wow Wow what's the dumbest thing you've ever blown a ton of money on his coins. Why would I confess these these? Do you have to worst What's one piece of great advice ice? You regret not taking. I suppose if would be. Don't take these so seriously. Don't take things so seriously. Thank you very much. Second City. Alana's character loves station SUSHI PHONE WIGS and Andy. But there's one thing that fires are up most of all we need so a Lotta as a catalyst store. Here's what I'm going to present various celebrities. Ladies you've worked with you tell us what kind of stone or you think they would be. The I guess yes. Okay what kind of stone or Wood Scarlett Johansson would be your rough night. co-star a nervous. Not Chill Steiner. Okay what about Rupaul. Chill and probably I believe performance and a funding Quispe. What about Hillary Clinton? I honestly think she'd be. Do you think she will be Diane Keaton also voiced ingredients. Super Chill Beaujolais with ice. Yes Seth Rogan well. Pleased the king. Yes the what about Amy Schumer I think emmy she just had a baby right. I think she'd be like chill and happy to to talk about Kate. Kate McKinnon I think it would be nervous about I. Hannibal Chill thank you very much. Okay finally. It's a serious treats have Kathleen in on it and the clubhouse so here's what I want to ask some questions that are seriously silly. It is time for outside the Actors Studio Kathleen. What was your first concert? You ever went to. Oh it does Hausky count. I'll take it okay. Okay Yeah Piano Concerto B flat minor. Wow a a lot of what was your first concert My first concert was James. Taylor tape what celebrity was the first celebrity. You too that you had a crush on Richard Chamberlain. Richard Chamberlain him on stage. When I was growing up in London in high school he was doing the ladies dumper burning was a swashbuckling pie with us. He had no idea g you know yes I know he broke and then he was in the thornbirds and then everyone found out that way took me a long time ago. I worked with him and he said you know I'm by the way AH been. Oh my God a lot. Of what celebrity do I crush on Lake Mark. Paul Guzzler Ella Law Francine I remember saying to save my Yeah it makes the most embarrassing nickname you've ever been given Kathy Kathy. Kathy you do really think of a new dot care for Kathy's right. Oh I won't I wrote a lot of what is the most embarrassing. If you call up Elaine Elaine. I'm sorry rather please dominate terrible. What is your irrational pet peeve? Leuze like all that okay. How about you a Lotta Gum chewing gum chewing gum earlier? Thank thank you for playing ladies. Let's take a quick McCall Bass from Philadelphia Four Kathleen Turner Beth. What's your question? Hi Hi Andy. Hi Kathy Schwinn. Yeah absolutely adore. How he little connections really bad? Tell us your question real quick again. She she loves you. What is your fondest memory of working with Michael? Douglas fondest memory highs. We've had so much fun but it was never just my. It was always Mike Lynn. Down on Ame. Yeah so we were kind of like a little club. Yeah you know and I was. They let me be one of the guys which is always fun. I suppose some of the stuff in Mexico. Yeah because I grew up in South America and they really needed a Spanish speaking person. Oh right yes We got a question on twitter from Margaret Thirty once you and Michael Douglas wherever romantic during those films. Your chemistry okay. Let's go to the phones Sam from Texas for Alana. What's your question? Hey Alana Sensors the new green eggs and ham series. Do you think Dr Seuss was donor. Yes Joe Oh by the way it looks so. I'm so excited about this and it's on Netflix. Yeah it's so pretty and it's like there's just such great actors in it. I really impress my mom cut together. What did you ever in the studio with any of these people or it was all right? Let it's very leave from Vegas for Kathleen Turner. What's your question? Jerry Lee Andy I love love. Love Love you and my the question is for the Kathleen Turner Miss Jessica Rabbit. Just I just want to ask her. How much did she loves train? Chandler's father on friends law was quite groundbreaking. Yes and of course. I wouldn't do it now because I there would be real people. Yes but at the time the one of the creators of friends I was doing a one woman show base Lubang cat and he came up. See The show in San Francisco and came backstage and said you have to play. Chandler's Dan Lewis Dad and I thought okay we think a woman playing a man right being a woman rate. I haven't done that so I guess that's great episodes right. Yeah Yeah I think four okay all right well. It was an iconic part and it was really out of its time I mean it was. It's still close. We Dad. I love a Lotta Georgina. Oh emailed was there ever abroad. City storyline so out of this world. That comedy central put the Kyw Bosch on it. You know actually comedy central didn't we were Going to go to Israel for the episode were On the plane caught and then there was violence happening there and like the last minute we were like no right right so like couldn't do it but it was funny episode. But I'm glad we didn't do. Great it Greg Johnson said Kathleen. Can you still do the comic bird whistle from serial mom. Oh God you know all right. Where's my daughter? She's it's Rachel. She doesn't have a mic on. Yeah she's only got it. John my God we you know in many anyways. Kathleen is a screenwriter's dream. Not only because she can actor face off because she can take any line and make it a thousand times matter just by saying it with with her voice. So it's gametime everybody I want to give the Kathleen treatment to some famous films. It's time to play last. I got lead. You're going to recite Famous movie lines a lot and I will both shout out the name of the film and See who right. Okay you gotta ask ask yourself one question. Do feel lucky well do your punk lake the movie that MacAulay Culkin's watching at home on I have no idea go. Andy you gotta run right also just the girl standing in front of a boy not alive. I Have Hippos Greg. Could you could be. Oh the faulkners. The falker close meet the parents have any. I'm not bad and I'm just drawn Jessica Rabbit brand new but when I do I have a very particular set of skills skills. I have acquired over very long career skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. I feel like it's a woman talking back to a man taking in November twenty second i. I had five layers of age makeup on Buddy padding and is is immensely do an hour and a half get this shit off my face. I really really was it was it was so hot and you got to work with dodge. I'll tell you a little story about Dolly because you called. She's telling me all about Obon character because she says you know the Bose is important Gordon to her in her life and everything and she's she's saying now she lived up up to cabin there with an old dog named blue and a one eyed cat name winky and I said I don't know where I say. I always travel with my cat. Simon Oh all right all right now what we do. IS WE PULO sugar water on his I in the hurt him. None don't hurt him and he can play winky. I didn't know he can you know. I don't WanNA winking cat I do is funny I love I love Dolly Parton. I'm really excited to see the movie. I'm really only says sweet. Alana Adam J wants to the best part of how being Ellen Degeneres for a boss awesome greetings and am I guess not interacting with her I thank you yes there you go all right. It's a clean relationship exact there you go okay. Good all right it is time. I'm for my Mazal. As the day goes John Legend. Who was announced tonight that he's GonNa be People Magazine's sexiest after looking at that sexy? Swimming Pool Shot John. I have one thing to say. The CHRISSY teagan husbands in the floor. Jack Do you get Jersey. Using housewives to humor. Tonight's talks are apparently underway for an unscripted friends reunion special initial. This gets the Jack Hall because they haven't asked me to host even though I did one in two thousand sixteen if only I knew someone who played a prominent role on friends runs who lost Kathleen Turner Guys John Melissa here. We have something really cool. Talk to you about it's called Fab fit fun so FAB fit. Fund is a seasonal subscription box with full size full-size beauty products for fitness fashion. A and lifestyle product. We can't stress this enough. We're not getting samples here. We're getting full size. Products retails for over two hundred dollars each time. And you're only going to pay forty nine ninety nine each box and if you you use the coupon code W. W. H. l.. You're going to get ten dollars off your first box if you go to Fab fit fun. Dot Com. Let's talk about some of these products. Now you are really really into this lotion. Well I'm into lotion and I love a good scent. It's very strong. So one of my favorite products is human. I and kind body souffle. First of all they already had me at souffle. Because a great name but it is a moisturizer and it's so good it's Vegan and it's onto oily. I use it every day. Now how do I smell like a safely. You actually use it to and I don't love scented lotions but I actually really liked. WHO's fresh power? It's really good. And then you love your cheese board or I'm into cheese. Lots of different cheeses. I love having people over as you know. I like to put out cheeses and this. This box actually came with a tiny little cheese. Board is really cool with a ceramic plate can move. The plate came with some like some cutlery lary stainless steel cutlery. It's really nice. It's a great size when you don't WanNa bring out a huge plate so that's the thing it's not just beauty products. It's not just fitness things. You're going to get things like cheese plates. It's in Yoga Mats. Here straighter in there. I WanNa get that box. That's a good one like we said you're going to get ten dollars off if you go to. The website FAB fit fund dot com use the code. WW H. L.. And check it out and you can smell like a souffle like fit fun. We're back with Kathleen Turner from heartstrings streaming on Netflix streaming on that flakes likes to greet eggs in the bars. My friends from St Louis Frank Hugo and Tamara clementines. Thanks Naughty and nice cream. Mary and Saint Louis available for purchase and chips. Nationwide and Oprah loves it so GINA THE OTHER No. Yes exactly Let's go to Josh from New York. Josh what's your question. Hey Andy My questions for Alana okay. Along one one celebrity that you always wanted to have guest on God's city that you never had a chance to I mean you got Hillary Clinton. Yeah I mean like we pretty much maxed out We madly caffeine's you ever was. We never got. Aw chopped liver who shares maybe a whole nother like avenue for coupling Turner. What's your question? How their hi? My question is Kathleen do you have any memories of working with Ricky Lake Ontario. Mom Yeah Good Pussy. Willow no I I will do the second guy I you know. I think that that's with overdone. Since boring don't he was a good a group. I think the funniest funniest one though sometimes was waterston because he took it all very seriously and he came very earnest. Any any he came over and he said now. Do you think that we might be immortalizing. Glorifying serial killing up DOC. It's a movie John. More specifically that was great Spencer they're from Wisconsin for Alana. What Questions Spencer? Hi Alanna If you could change anything about the series finale abroad city what would you do differently. I honestly wouldn't change a way of the broad city failing. Yeah that was the privilege to end it when we wanted the way we wanted. I would say it ended. I mean you knew it ended before its time but that's the way to go out. Yeah let's go to Andrea from North Carolina Andrea. which question? I mean it is. Yeah Yeah Hi from Raleigh North Carolina. You know I've gotta start by telling you that I am so proud of the menu are and your choice of bringing in a life into the world take solid thoughts and just being the type of menu. Are you someone to be very proud of Sir my question my question is for Kathleen and I wanted to know if there's anything anything that she has ever turned down or has ever done that. She wished she had not in her career because she is an icon. Aren't turned down many these none of which I have regretted I would tell you about one guy that I was on the phone. My agent called I was home within my I suppose he was my fiance and it was. They were offering me the role in Solomon's Woman's minds. Yeah Okay with Richard J William by the by. Wow Anyway I would. I'd read the script and it was terrible and so I said all right fine. We'll sell them my one five billion dollars and there was his paws anyway. Well they started their. Okay then tell them no. Just tell them right right and I hung up in my fiance's did you just. Did you just do them. Five million dollars. The film sucks you know and I usually. Yeah and you were right now Google and find out who took that part Sharon Johnstone thank you. We had to close. We had to. We had to guess like okay. We'll just that actually works as punch like it's That's Tommy from Buffalo. Tommy what your question. Hi Andy Love You. Love you on on How was judging Ru? Paul's drag race. Nash Ashley Okay. So it was so fun. Have you done it kept saying no but I have been sort of on it. Well Yeah yes. That's right because they do fight eh one of them for the love of Kathleen Turner. What part of Kathleen tournaments right? Okay so you want to hear what happened the day grace. I got a crazy hot water. Burn yes I was staying at Eric. Andres House poured like hot water into a swell bottle of his. Is I get in the car it pours on my leg and I'm I'm losing my mind. It was a second degree burn. And I'm like drag race right literally and unlike have a doctor meet me there. Whatever and I'm like I got like a bag of ice and then I it was so crazy this disgusting thing all day and everyone was nice enough to pretend they didn't notice it and I like walked I was like I turn around. I was like please don't know because I was like So I was was like blind pain right. But it was dope like Russo sick and like you know having met him on broad city it was like oh Cool seeing ru in drag. You had gone through. This is how talks and talks to the judges with like a fan. There's like I think she should win. And actually watching reproduce was such an awesome and Michelle and Rosser so last caller caller tonight. Oh wow it's our friend. Mike from Cape Cod. Mike how you been. Oh my God hi Andy How are you. I am very excited to speak. I've Seen Oh my John. You were just announced today as account work at Camp John Waters. I have been all Yes and Tanjug. We all know there was a camp. John Waters can get on September eleven eleven to fourteen. We are beyond excited. I I see your question Mike. The day I love him. I'm GonNa Faint mytalk attack me. Turner please what what. What was your favorite memory of working working? Mitch Nicholas Cage in Peggy. Sue got married. That's a tough one five or call from your last appearance parents. You may not have a favorite memory from experience. Well Good I. We call the came in the last night night of shooting and with a bottle of Tequila in his hand and fell to his knees. Those sorry absorbs sorry. I got one more scene. Come on God yes. Your favorite memory might have been wrapping the film. Yeah it was a big that that and then after all that it was also was thing because will know because Francis contract he would lose final. Cut It. We didn't come in on time but no he said anywhere on budget so we'd worked six day weeks of twenty hours a day. How how because because we we didn't want him blues cut right right but it was devastatingly difficult? Yeah Yeah and a big hit was good field yes it is. Yeah it is I want to thank Kathleen Turner and a lot of. Yeah thanks for listening to the PODCAST. Everybody hope you enjoyed the show. Remember new episodes go live Monday through Friday at four P._M.. Eastern time make sure your subscribe to have a great rusty or not.
Avoiding the Midlife Crisis: Guest Kathleen Reily
"<music>. Hi Vocal James Miller life allergy resigned to simplify and transform your spirit mind and body. My name is James Miller. I'm a licensed psychotherapist and a composer. Thank you so much for tuning in today. Let's get started. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to listen to this show when you're done listening. I hope you take a minute right. Quick Review on whichever radio or podcast platform. You've heard this show your insights will help others to be inspired and encouraged. I have a great show for you today. I'm GONNA help you instantly. Change your mood. I also be interviewing interviewing Kathleen Riley who has the unique ability to teach men experiencing midlife transition how to maximize their impact and become authentic self for more information about Kathleen. Please visit Kathleen Riley Dot Com. I have some exciting news. Did you know that I'm on the radio three times a week. You Mayhew me on this. The same station on Tuesdays at one thirty PM Friday's at nine thirty. AM and Saturday at twelve thirty pm you may also hear me anytime an Iheartradio as well as all the the other major pod casting platforms including itunes spotify Google play Sicher and many others simply search for this show name James Miller life algae or simply go to James Miller life allergy dot com. Are you struggling to find your purpose has mediocrity set in and you can't imagine doing the same thing for the rest of your life. Are you relationship struggling or you aren't sure how to make long lasting changes then contact me. James Miller I will help you recognize the areas in your life that are going really well and then we will look at the areas in which you're struggling. We will create actionable solutions to help you create long lasting changes. You don't have to do this alone. Go to my website James Miller life allergy dot com and click on the page work with James Philip that form and it will be sent directly to me. Don't let another day go by without finding your way. Your change can start today once again. Go to James Miller Life Dot Com and click on the page work with James. Fill out that form to get started today how to instantly change your mood. We've all woken up on the wrong side of the bed and it feels like we struggle for the rest of the day in previous episodes. I've talked with you about not creating two different skills. Get more insight into what's happening inside of you. The two scales look like this on a scale of one to ten ten is the best you feel and one is the worst. Did you feel you rate your emotional wellbeing and your physical body so if you woke up on the wrong side of the bed it's really more of your emotions that are going to be lower so if you did that internal scale you probably be about a three or four but your physical body would probably be about an eight or nine. You're probably fine so if you decide to stay bettle all day. Unfortunately your emotions have dictated what your physical body can do fast forward to around noon at work. You do these scales again and realized that you're once again. Emotional rating is low and you think well what happened why was so low and then you recall the argument you had with a CO worker or the argument you had with your spouse realize that you've carried that anger that frustration into the present moment what you have this awareness then you ask yourself. What what am I gonNa do if this happened earlier in the day and I'm still feeling this way and I don't want to. How do I change this. Did you know on average. It takes about six healthy experiences to cancel out one negative experience so subconsciously. If you're ruminating on what happened earlier you've created this whole foundation of why you're frustrated created right now the reason why it takes about six positive things to counteract one negative thing because the negative thing we think about a lot we think about what the person said we think about how they were. Standing Sandy. We think about the location. We process every detail of it. It becomes visceral in our mind and because of that that is why unpleasant memories stories are so strong in her life nothing of a funny memory the reason why that doesn't stick out to you as much is because when a situation like that happens you enjoy it and then you move on you you don't process it or think about it. The way you think about an unhealthy experience you just sit with the emotion and you enjoy it to the counter act. An unhealthy experience is when you think of a positive or healthier memory you have to process it the way you'd process a negative memory and that would entail you thinking of the tone which somebody said something you think about how they said it you think about why they said it think about what your response was you think about where the location was the more detail you give do it. In your mind's eye another words you use your internal five senses to really experience it to find that your mood instantly changes and that's a really good trick to practice of how to counteract a negative emotion in the moment is by focusing on it the same way you would negative emotion the more often you do that the more successful you'll be too easily counteract. You're unhappy mood. You'RE GONNA here a fantastic interview with Kathleen Riley really helps men who are struggling with midlife how to rewire the brain so they can live in this continual state of contentment. I wanted to take just a quick moment to thank you all who continually support and listen to James Miller Life Allergy Collagen. I haven't been so blessed and honored by your continual supports however I want to make sure that you don't miss out on anything exciting. That's happening over here so good or James Miller follow dot com or follow followed DOT TV and sign up for the free weekly recap each week I will send you an email which has all the latest radio episodes youtube episodes magazine articles and self of help products specifically for you once again go to James Miller life algae dot com or a life Agassi DOT TV and sign up for the free weekly recap. My guest is Kathleen Riley who has a unique ability to teach men experiencing midlife transition how to maximize her impact and become their authentic self walk into my show Kathleen. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. I am as well now. I saw that you used to work in Washington. DC Yes yes I did so I was in economic policy research <hes> that was originally my my major ager. UNDERGRAD was ECON and finance and so then <hes> I went to go work in DC right after college or maybe six months after her <hes> and and it was not for me I actually I don't know if you knew this for the next from DC. I just moved down to I saw her back and I was like Oh my gosh I'm like I know exactly where where she's talking about what she's done but your but it's interesting though to hear about your your major economics versus what you do now. I mean there just seem completely different. How did you realize that what you went to school for wasn't necessarily what you wanted to do so I was in. I mean I loved what I was studying right. It's it sounds ridiculous by economics is super fascinating and financial markets and I loved reading about it and studying it but obviously you know being subsidized to sit around and read books and theorized is completely different from applying the real world wide rights of so when I got out into the real world <hes> I found my work was not stimulating at all. It was super monotonous. Just I mean it was like shifting from all this intellectual stimulation relation and an inquiry and all of that over to a incredibly mind-numbingly boring position <hes> so and it was not there wasn't a creative aspect about it. <hes> it's just it was just extremely monotonous and under under stimulating and so from there. How did you say you know what I need something different. I I I'm going into my mind with boredom. What did you do so so now if you want me to address a little bit the transition from there into what I do now in college and and during my time in DC I had <hes> very severe anxiety and panic and so on and so that was that when when I kind of got on the past right around the time of being in DC to really heal that that's when I really got into shoe neuro plasticity which is rewiring certain emotional behavioral patterns in the Brain Rights through repeating the same often <hes> emotional experience over and over and over again and by that I mean you know peacefulness com safety right and those are experiences that are completely antithetical to you know a a highly stressed out and and ANC yeah nurse system right and so through that work I mean it was it was really amazing that I loved it and then after that I got involved in some health coaching and and then from their own my gosh I I really need to start working with people who also also struggle with anxiety and that's one of the great things is because we teach what we also need to learn as well it really solidifies for one what we're teaching but it also helps offs us understand it so much more than a visceral level so we can we become what we teach exactly exactly and it's so much more potent when when when when that when you really had that that exact experience yourself and so then <hes> so is working with people who struggle Argonne severe anxiety and design a really really effective eight week program <hes> to rewire chronic chronic anxiety and panic and and then as I moved into that work I began to work more more with men <hes> going through midlife transition and I had I had realized early on before I started my kind of entrepreneurial journey that I knew it's crazy because when you talked entrepreneurs yours they always say well. I had this general feeling but I didn't know how it was going to manifest right so I had this real calling to work with men in in mind set transformation and mindset shift right <hes> but I didn't really know how it was going to manifest in so then later as I I started working with more and more male clients in the anxiety niche than I it was. I found it extremely fulfilling. They were amazing clients and and then I I really redirected in focused on midlife transition oriented obstacles in the mindset so we'll let's first talk about the Midlife <hes> male midlife transition. Give us an idea of what that looks like. Someone militias may not understand what that is right so so <hes> essentially really. It's you know it's it's not the most delightful time right and so what what's happening. Gene is first of all people can there are three types of absorb unbrella challenges. One is difficulty not with health too is difficulty with relationships three marriage excetera <hes> three is difficulty with career and and and the the often the clients that I work with their their primary challenges are <hes> disillusionment demint right with with day to day life they often buick there an era in a very robotics monotonous <hes> a a daily routine and then and then also what what's really what I integrate a lot into my work as well is there's a a a distinct disconnect from their child like south right and and those critical childlike experiences is for example excitement right joy fulfill shit curiosity what would make sense if if they feel like they're living a life of Monotony Ramini dougherty and robotic activities yeah well. That's exciting. That's not joy filled at all so yeah that makes sense. The hackery and there's a kind are trading off which is which is something. I began to notice an old so what propelled me into to my work. There's a kind of trading in off <hes> for for men between you know that sort of twenty s period of life into shouldering the responsibilities disabilities and and some burdens of adulthood right in and and there are a unique their unique burdens that I feel like men have to bear <hes> <hes> and so there's there's definitely a trade off of those childlike quality is not not for everyone <hes> respect yeah yeah yeah right and then and then there will be there'll be some other challenges like chronic stress <hes> a cluttered mindset right. Where do I go now. I've got all these thoughts and ideas about where I should go for you know what does she do for the next chapter of my life and I'm kind of spinning and so they need the clarity on that. How would that manifest or how would how would it makes sense. People are experiencing not neither spirit experience all these thoughts. How would how does that look to the world also. Let's say someone's experience in that and I'm watching them. What does that look like. It's it's a decline in fulfillment. It's a decline in in meaning and purpose to to your work right <hes> to your personal life. Sometimes it can be one or the other sometimes it's both but generally it's one or the other it can be a lack of drive right you know because I if if nothing is fulfilling and exciting and in and curious and and you don't have that next goal and the drive to get there that's going to show right. It's GONNA show mild forms. The depression say them ability and frustration probably a little bit more quick to express anger frustration. That's that's how I was here from a from a psychological standpoint and also hobby exactly yes definitely definitely conceicao. Yeah I was I was I started working with a new line of few user like a week ago two weeks ago and he particularly comes to mind because it was struggling with a lot of irritability a lot of negativity right lot of cycling negative thoughts that just bury you they they don't that's a little extreme but they damage and they dampen and they damp and <hes> and and so yeah so there was irritability negatively mild depression and <hes> just you know and a lot of anger anger coming out in his relationship at home and and so yeah I would even hearing this and I'm GonNa Serotype your anyone listening. Please understand this is a very broad serotype but I would assume that most people who have have most people midlife their physical health is probably not where it could be this to- serotype because if they're working so much if they've invested so much than there are thought life is going to manifest in their physical comportment or their physical presentation so assuming that if people are experiencing this midlife left transition this year at ability. There's frustration whatever might be. That's probably gonNA show up in. Maybe not being as physically active. Maybe being a little overweight huge stereotype back but with the reason why I say that is because if there are other areas in our life that we don't necessarily feel fulfilled then that becomes the overarching aspect of filled in my career. I'm not outfielder my health and my fulfilled my my relationships and so it seems like it would be a broad spectrum are umbrella type of transition which is negative transistor unhealthy transition which would permit all Arizonans life <hes> yeah absolutely and again. It's you know there there are three different types and usually usually one person suffers most in one particular category but <hes> but yeah yeah the physical <hes> giving up you're you're you're physically being in shape and having high high level of energy and and feeling competent about yourself physically and as an attractive attractive individual <hes> that that can definitely go by the wayside as you as you begin accumulating more and more responsibility and then and some people can take on a lot a lot of responsibility at home and at work and not get stressed out some people can't so there is that stress factor obviously that you know in intensifies weight weight gain and usually affects sleep which even further intensifies weight gain anyway so so yeah and then and then yeah and then you had that low self a steam around your physique as well but <hes> but the important thing in either of those three categories the important thing is addressing the mindset and the underlying you're lying <hes> obstacles that are kind of you know perpetuating that cycle in psychology what we teach is whatever we perceive to be true determined what we feel our feelings remember what our body responds and so you're really addressing the cognition of the thoughts or the hard wire of cause and effect with people. I think that's absolutely wonderful. Tell us more about the eight week program that you have your absolutely so so it's it's <hes> it's my my entire. Eight program is based on three audio practices each day right that you will do each day and and I amid to kind of run through the steps of developing it I you know will we do like a Q. and A. Informative Chat. I get to know you you get to know me figure out if we're good fit and then from there <hes> than we do like a I call it just a deep dive strategy call so I get into the real nitty gritties in what I do. WHO IS I. I really figure out. What are your goals? What what what are the biggest shifts that you want to see and then I get all the necessary information to develop up and design that eight week program and and on average. There's a twenty minute warning audio practice. There's a twenty minute evening one and a ten minute afternoon one <HES> and I've worked with you know see yellow is people who are in extremely demanding careers and and this seems to be a sweet spot in terms time demand but essentially what you're doing is your you know if if if stress is a the big issue for you then we're going to focus on developing a peaceful mindset right <hes> and perhaps and usually there will be a couple more obstacles that you want to rewire as well but you know for all intents and purposes. I'll use the example stress so what we're GONNA do is. We are going to find mind a period in your life. Maybe it was a memory from when you were really young. Were in your twenties thirties or maybe even just a couple months ago where you felt that intense deep and powerful experience peacefulness right <hes> 'cause most everyone has one memory their life when they felt deeply peaceful and and so what what we do as human beings as we have these experiences in our wives that are actually like pieces of gold in terms of rewiring our experience in the world and and so what we can do is. I can walk you through bringing that memory up diving deep into the actual feeling in a peacefulness smacks of exactly the N N M my God does such an amazing job retraining the brain when you just focus on the feeling and not the words the words take you there but what you WanNa do is just entrench yourself in an ocean <hes> of this feeling of peacefulness and and so you WanNa make it very intense and expanded make full body and mind experience in in doing that. <hes> you know <unk> those three times each day. It is it's profound because as the brain continues to to develop new neurons right little baby neurons that can be formed and customized to support a certain mindset over that this process take six to eight weeks and over that period of time. The brain is developing new neural pathways to support that feeling of peacefulness right and so by the time. We're finished working together. You know we'll we'll have developed that long-term mindset of peacefulness <hes> maybe maybe confidence is another thing you wanted to work on self confidence <hes> and then you know maybe excitement right <hes> and so so as you as you build you build you build much like a roadway that you use over and over again you know like learning a new instrument or or or a language <hes> you you deepen and create those those those pathways and you create that experience except feeling of peacefulness on an automatic basis every day. I love it from a neurological standpoint so my listeners here in this now I want to piggyback piggyback off of what Kathleen saying for neuropsychologist standpoint what we're actually doing what she's doing is when you create when you return to a previous memory state when and you sit without emotion just like I said earlier thoughts determine your feelings feelings determine your body experience so when we sit without emotion you generate a feeling of peace or happiness UNISOM excitement what you're doing is you're creating certain Euro Chemicals and there's neuro chemicals then allow for that neuropathy to happen because they're firing off more and more so so when you sit with a certain memory creates more dopamine and creates more tone and it creates more oxytocin there are certain Neuro Trans at happen and so when you sit with that at actually actually wants it allows you to enjoy even more which gives you more endurance to enjoy that emotion a little bit more a little bit more and pretty soon. It's easier for you to recall all that emotion because you've been able to sit with it so long and a byproduct of a feeling that allows you to have the reward of having all those feel good chemicals course through your body exactly exactly yeah yeah so that's wonderful that your clients are able to experience it and from what I've read. You've had some pretty good success. Yes yes yes. Actually I do <hes> I have <hes> I brought one short quiet testimony <hes> and and and I can read that if you want to hear it. It's <hes> so quote. Kathleen's program is hard to put into words because in all around around transformation is hard to describe I can start by saying God. I've retrained. My thoughts create a childlike mindset. I'm worry free free and much happier and I am reliving that experience as a child when I used to ride bikes and felt that sense of safety freedom joy and aliveness business when I used to feel <hes> life acutely in in most ways. This is a happiness program in the way that I was once. Happy like a child is happy not an end quote and he's yeah he's he's CEO. Oh sixty sixty now. That's amazing Kathleen congratulations. I'm sure that feels good for you as well. I know it is yeah I would say this any day. I would trade in a economic policy that is hysterical. I would do that as well. Caffeine rather is gonNA absolute pleasure having on my show today if my listeners like to find out more efficient all the amazing things you're doing work with you. Where are they finding the information for missing online so I'll give two pieces of info one is you can find a bunch of free trainees and content at am dot m. e. forward slash m number four and coach. CEO Ach and then <hes> and then also you can the website which is Kathleen K. A. T. H. E. N. R. E. Y. Dot Com awesome caffeine. Thank you once again for being a fantastic as Michigan state. I really enjoyed this talk. Thank you thank you. I also want to thank you my listener for tuning in today. Please subscribe to this radio show through whichever portal you join me today. Also oh please go to my website. Were you may sign up for the free weekly. Recap watch my youtube episodes. Read the articles I've written specifically for you and purchase my previous guests self-help products wchs if you'd like to work with me be a guest on or advertise on this show visit James Miller lite faulty dot com be sure to follow me also media platforms under the name James Miller life policy except for twitter which is james m life algae once again. Thank you so much for your support and I'll talk to you soon.
"Are you into the secret histories of exorcisms? Christmas massacres. Kill, does irs and concert just. How about haunted MANSION'S THE PHILADELPHIA EXPERIMENT? The dorm of death or candy corn than you're GonNa Love Ghost town, a hilarious, and sometimes not so hilarious twice weekly podcast on Wednesdays, we discussed the secret history of an abandoned unexplored, haunted or mysterious place from anywhere in the world and on Fridays. We cover an amazing historical failure from any time in history goes. Town is one hundred percent, safe and legal. We guarantee it. It's also fun spooky and can contain a riot, a massacre, a murder or an arch deluxe I'm Rebecca Lieb I'm Jason Horton and this is ghost town and you can find ghost town wherever you listen to podcasts. This podcast may contain content that is graphic and disturbing in nature listener discretion is advised. This is the story of a woman who work in the criminal justice system has shined the spotlight on wrongful convictions in the united. States, and while her work enlightened us all they case that inspired her. Efforts is one that just might haunt us. This is episode twenty one. The casting Zellner story. Hey Amy good to you today Hi Megan Miss You I miss you too and I can't wait 'til. We're recording again together I know. Let's give some shoutout, so you ready my favorite part. Let's do it I. Love this to okay. I is an Drina from Switzerland. Injuring andrine actually helped us with some social media stuff she like volunteer time, and made us even like a little document, and I just end. She didn't make us feel old when we had no clue about this. I felt old anyway, but love you Andrea. Thank you so much. We have a Bailey from Illinois, and she came from listening from up zest heard about us, and then came over. Oh, thanks, Bailey and Bailey has a question for us. How often do you think the backlog of DNA testing keeps victims from justice and perpetrators from being charged men and women? And what can we do to help? End The backlog I. Love that question for the answer to the first part is a strong. Yes, so I think the number. One thing we could do is ask Congress to prioritize. Prioritize funding so I've read some reports that say there's over one hundred thousand rape kits that are currently sitting untested, so that means a hundred thousand victims who have not received justice that also means potentially one hundred thousand rapists who have not been apprehended and just as bad it could also very well mean that people that are wrongfully convicted that are wrongfully charged of rapes that these rape kits could possibly exonorated. Did you know something interesting? Meghan that some labs consider backlog at a sample is not tested for only ninety days. I had no idea, even more surprising is. Considered a backlog after only thirty days, so it is interesting to think about. When does a sample become considered backlog versus a current sample? It's all about just prioritizing funding. Yeah, I think one of the things that happened was that they were collecting DNA for a long time, but didn't have the technology all the sudden. There's the technology, but then there's all these untested kits already. So then where do you start and so I think the backlog was a function of that and begin from the beginning, and now we just need more DNA technicians more money. It really is a funding issue, and unfortunately it's not always easy to get funding. No, it's not, but we hope. We hope that there is funding for this issue. It's really really important. I think we're going to see that happen. Thank you for your question. Belly. Hope that answers it next. We have brook from Flagstaff Arizona and Brooke actually wrote to US suggesting that we visit Sedona and staff. Saying how pretty they are on our trip that we're taking the summer when you say our trip, you don't mean me a new. James. SEDONA right? Yes, I was actually born in Arizona Fun fact Sedona is breathtakingly beautiful. You need to go there. Okay, thank you so much for the right now. We have a friend that we can visit when we go I was GONNA. Say That I keep saying that like. Oh, so we'll see there everyone that'd be like Oh my God. These girls were really going. Look stop now. Thanks for the suggestion Brooke. We have cindy from Utah Ironically Cindy. We might also be taking a road trip out there and when I say we I mean me and James Sorry. We have cassie from Columbia Missouri Question. She is curious what we think about the. Laurie, Valo, case. I've been on this for a while. I actually wrote back to Cassie but let me just also say that I. Think it's too soon to say what the cause of death is for the kids. and I'm talking about four. Thailand jj I read something that said they died a gruesome death as I read. I realized they still didn't know how it was way too premature. They should not be publishing anything like. Like that I mean. We hope they didn't suffer like it's like now that we know. We just have to hope that it was as painless and as quick as possible in terms of Laurie Valo I don't know about her. Mental State and I would need to know more about it. What I've read is that she believed her kids. ZOMBIES and other people were zombies, and they had dark souls, and she had. Had to do something to eradicate it i. know that. She was very heavily influenced by Chad Day bells, teachings and two things I, said when she goes with the legal strategy. I'm going to assume that either. They're going to try to pin it on her brother. WHO has gone or they're going to try to pleaded insanity, defense and I would love to cover this case when we get a little more information as As you mentioned. It's so early on, so it's really hard to speculate and I think it's problematic when people speculate before having all the facts anyway, right? Yeah, so we will actually come back to this when we have more information, thank you for your support. We have McKenna from Los Angeles Yeah. I love your name McKenna. Her sister and her mom also listened to the podcast. Oh Dang, like a family thing. We, have Sarah Lou Cozy and Sarah is. A direct appeal listener as well Sarah. What do you think innocent or guilty? We need to know and finally we have tomorrow Hawthorne from Queensland Australia, Oh. How amazing thank you Tamara Australia is be useful. I had the honour of going there. Megan two years ago and I have to say it is one of the most beautiful places I've ever visit I remember, do you remember I could've gone as well but I was afraid to get on the plane and go that far. Yes your baby. You missed out trip. I held a Koala and Kangaroo Tamara. Actually also has a whole squad of listeners as well so thank you and let me also say that We're reading tomorrow's name this time and not last week because James Forgot her on the last list. You're fired James Word sorry. Tamara hope. hope we don't forget you in the future, we'll blame it on James though. Yes, and that's it. Thank you so much. Everyone. Thanks for writing US again. Love the questions and we really liked the engagement, so today's case is one I. AM super excited about, and it's so excited to talk to amy about so based my description. Do you know who I'm covering today? I'm going to have to say Kathleen Zellner Ding. Dang, you got it is Kathleen Zellner. Many of you might know her from. Her part to she is Steven Avery's lawyer and we are going to actually get to a couple of her cases and updates on the Steven Avery case but I want to begin by giving you a look at Kathleen backgrounds, and what led her down this path to become the lead wrongful conviction attorney. I would say or lead wrongful conviction exoneration attorney in the united. States because to date Kathleen has nineteen exonerates Turney, which is just an incredible feat Kathleen was born on May, seventh, nineteen, Fifty, seven to winifred and. Daniel Thomas she was raised by her parents in Midland Texas along with her seven siblings until such time when they moved to Bartlesville Oklahoma from a young age, Kathleen envisioned herself working for the FBI or as an investigative journalist, and I'd just like to say amy side note that I wanted to work as a criminal lawyer or like an investigator as well since I've been about seven or eight so I, totally related to that Kathleen also learned martial arts at a young age, and she was the type of kid and this. This will come probably as no surprise, who didn't tolerate bullying either for herself or people around her, Kathleen originally attended Marquette University in Wisconsin with aspirations of becoming a history professor, but the school was not for her, and after one semester she transferred to the university, of Missouri where she met her husband Robert Zellner with whom she has one daughter. Her name is an an is also a practicing attorney. Robert and Kathleen would go on to live in Montreal briefly, which is really where Kathleen finished her bachelor degree in Montreal. It was reportedly Robert, who recognized that Kathleen's strong will would serve her well in the legal field, and with his support and really his. Kathleen attended Northern Illinois. Law School Kathleen worked for other firms for a bit, but she actually opened her own firm specializing in medical malpractice in nineteen, ninety, also handling prisoner, abuse cases and wrongful conviction cases, and while we all know her for these famous cases. Let's hear how she got to where she is today. Because I'm not sure if anyone knows the case that led her to only want. Want to defend truly innocent people. Do you know this case or no? No, maybe once you say it, but I don't know who you're listening to okay. This is the case that I did not know her for either, and I found so interesting, and I fell down a rabbit hole on this one, and this is the Larry Eyler case nope never is. Amy Is still blind on that one. So. It's sounds vaguely familiar, but I definitely don't know shortly after Zellner that practice in nineteen, ninety, an anti-death penalty organization asked her to take on the appeal of Larry Eyler, convicted of murdering and dismembering fifteen year old boy. Eyler was a young attractive house painter in the nineteen seventies and eighties living in Indiana. He had a very troubled childhood, though filled with alcoholism and abuse by his parents and several stepfather's. Eyler also struggled with his sexuality, and he had feelings of self loathing because he was gay and it was said that. Would kill young gay men after sexual encounters because this inner conflict that he had now I just told you that he was convicted of dismembering and killing a boy, and then I'm saying now. There are multiple victims here, so keep that in mind. I lived with Robert David little. He was an older professor who worked at Indiana State University, but this was a platonic relationship Because Eyler was also, he was younger, he was attractive, little was a little, a little bit older and not so attractive. It was just a platonic living situation, but I learned also was involved with a married man, a man who is married to woman, and this was actually a serious relationship and the wife. Wife knew about it, and apparently was tolerant of this relationship Isla was back and forth between them, but when he was with little little, paid the bills, and supposedly it was so that Eyler was the young handsome guy who would kind of bring home, young handsome men for little to engage with as well because he was also gay, so I think that he was kind of you know the one who was able to get other people. I mean it. It wasn't a great picture from the start of their arrangement, but dubbed the highway killer Eyler killed an estimated twenty, two twenty three young men, many of whom were found near highways. He disposed of their bodies on the side of highways. Robert David little was also charged with murder as an accomplice in at least one of these murders, but he was acquitted of. Of all charges and return to his university position when Zellner came onto the case, it was at the part where islands was in his appeals, and she worked hard to broker a deal with prosecutors, and at first islanders family I mean they I looked at the footage and they were. They defended him, and said that he he couldn't have done this and whatnot but eyler. Confessed to Kathleen that he had committed a a number of these murders, and he said that he would reveal the names of his other victims if they would take the death penalty off the table because he had been sentenced to death for that one murder so Kathleen Zellner went and started brokering these deals and a had to happen with different prosecutors because they were actually many jurisdictions. It wasn't just an Indiana. It was a couple of Midwestern states where the bodies were found, so she went to work, and she got most of the prosecutors to agree, but there was one who really wouldn't and the deal ultimately fell through and eyler would die of AIDS related complications in prison in nineteen ninety four. But what happened after that was also a very unique so one year after his death Kathleen Zellner held a press conference, in which she revealed the names of islanders. Victims she said that either maintained the whole time that Robert David little. The professor lived with was absolutely an accomplice in several of the murders, also even the ones he was not, he still knew about them and eyler maintain that little actually committed the murders himself and Zellner revealed this information as well at the press conference. How was she allowed to do that isn't. Isn't there like attorney client privilege right so I'm glad you asked that because that's exactly what I thought. He gave permission to do so so he went dot his head. One idea you could do yes. He said when he died. I guess she had said it was like the only redeeming acts. He thought he could give was to at least give the families there. There there there remains, and what happened to their loved ones, so that's why she was allowed to at that time. Kathleen Zellner vowed that she would never work again for someone she thought was guilty that she would only work to defend the innocent. You know it's interesting to take serial killers and I actually didn't know Larry Eyler so I fell down such a rabbit. Rabbit hole with this I'm looking at everything and especially the connection with the professor. And he stood trial, and he was acquitted. And you know it's funny because when you started talking about him. I just assumed it was going to be a wrongful conviction. Case Remember you said he killed twenty something people on like. How do you get wrongfully convicted of being serious? It's actually really interesting. Although you know what I'm like side, note that Atlanta Monster Remember Eight. They say he's a wrongful conviction so. I don't know but anyway okay so Kathleen's You got a thriving practice a few years after the case Zellner took on a wrongful conviction case for Joseph burroughs. Have you ever heard his name? I but I don't remember the case. Boroughs was awaiting execution for the murder of an eighty eight year old retired farmer named William Doolan in an attempted robbery. What happened here, too? So how did they know this was an attempted robbery? Robbery of this eighty eight year olds while these other characters that come into play, Chuck Gillian and Gail Potter, who is going to play a very integral role in this case attempted to cash a four thousand dollar check of William, De Lawns but the bank employees this being like a small town recognize immediately that this wasn't the guy. This wasn't the old farmer, so they called the police because they knew William de Leon well. Authorities New Gail Potter, as a local cocaine dealer who had been arrested previously, she'd been arrested for drug dealing. She was a drug dealer. That day when authorities went to talk to her, she had visible cuts and bruises on her. You know the cop bring in, and they're grilling her essentially interrogating her, but scaring her so much so that she falsely implicates Joseph burroughs who she said was a collector of drug debt money so basically. This was a short thing that happened. The cops are like. Tell us you did it you. We know that you're involved in this somehow, but the cops didn't think because she's a woman and I. I love that we look at this gender lens that she's capable of this crime. Right so they pressure her and she very quickly turns over boroughs name, so who has boroughs? We all have a bad habit. We want to change. 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You can get one hundred dollars off your first month on talk space to match with your perfect therapist. Go Talk, space, dot, com, or download the APP. Make sure to use the code. Women Crime to get one hundred dollars off your first month and show support for the show. That's women, Crime and Talk Space Dot Com. I don't know about you. Amy Seriously I feel like I. Need Summer vacation from cooking. Totally agree. That's why lately I've been skipping out on meal prep and keeping things easy with my daily Harvest Meghan. Did you know that right now? Daily harvest is helping me beat the heat with refreshing smoothies and delicious scoops their new plant based ice cream new. Know How much I love a screen. It was just going to say at Amy's obsessed with ice. Ice Cream so I'm sure this is like a safe for you and my kids are obsessed with ice cream, and I can give my kids the ice cream. They're happy and they're actually getting good nutrients, because it's plant-based, agree. Daily harvest is a lifesaver. They help you stock your home with clean delicious food that's built on real fruits and vegetables with daily harvest. There's tons of options for any time of the day from you smoothies to the harvest. Harvest bowls which we both loved the flat breads and more and the best part. It's really ready to enjoy in minutes. Keep it simple this summer with daily harvest go to daily harvests, dot com, and enter Promo Code Women to get twenty five dollars off your first box. That's Promo Code Women W. O. M. E. N. for twenty five dollars off your first box at daily, Harvest Dot Com daily harvest dot com well. He's a guy who's got. got a history of fences, also, though none of them are violent, but he was like a very big burly, looking guy, and he kind of fit the bill like if you look at the pictures of him and I was encouraged people to go ahead and look, he's big, and he looks tough and I think coupled with his record. The police are seeing the most logical suspect to them like he looks like what a murderer is going to look. So he's arrested and they have another witness Ralph Fry, but it became obvious that Ralph Ri-. His testimony in his statement was absolutely riddled with inaccuracies, but he also pointed to boroughs as the killer fry potter. So this is Ralph rise the second one is Gail Potter. Their stories didn't match either. I have to tell you the list goes on and on with the inaccuracies in the problem in this death penalty case enter Kathleen. Zellner she took on the case, but she took it on kind of reluctantly I believe she's still kind of had a bad taste. Taste in our mouth from what happened with the case, most people had focused on Ralph, fries, testimony, and trying to work with that like where the problems were with fries testimony but Zellner actually was really smart. She skillfully worked the prosecution's star Witness Gail. Potter the woman so Zellner started visiting Gail Potter in prison, and just asking questions, and you know I think she i? Don't think she thought Potter was GONNA. Keep meeting with her or whatnot or keep talking to her. She definitely describes potter as having antisocial characteristics for shore, but Potter kept meeting with her and. and. She kept listening to Kathleen and during one of these meetings, Zellner actually said to her. You Know I. Think it was a woman who shot William de Leon, and Potter really admired Zellner to. She came to admire her and her response was. You're right. A woman did do it I shot building, so she actually admitted to Kathleen Zellner that she was the real perpetrator of the crime. Yeah, and soon cutting a deal, she trying to go at this point. Zellner is boroughs. Attorney can offer her anything She's she's advocating for her client, but what would happen? Happen. was that not only did she admit it, but Zellner skillfully got hurt the to commit to. And she confessed on the stand later on, and what happened. Boroughs was released in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, four. He was considered a wrongful conviction I. I'm clear as to why this happened, but maybe it was because it was early. Apparently, he was in like a multimillion dollar lawsuit, but then settled for a hundred thousand dollars for his wrongful conviction. You probably know that happens a la. Yeah, because a lot of times you know when you are going to. File a suit. You're going to go big, and then it's like a negotiations you go back and forth until you set on something, you'll see a lot of times. They start in the millions, and they end up in a couple hundred thousand. Okay I. Know I guess there's bigger settlements now, too. I'm assuming because it was ninety four, and this was like really free wrongful conviction compensation, and it sounds like it wasn't a DNA exoneration, which is why it's probably not as famous. Yeah, okay, you know. She was really hailed for her skills in getting a getting someone to confess to the murder. Murder Oh interestingly what happened to Gail Potter? I. Know We say interestingly all the time, though, but I was really curious like okay, so this woman goes on the stand that admits like when she going to be tried with murder right? NOPE, they perjury at the very least for I very smart, amy, that's right up serving five years for perjury or sentenced to five years for perjury, but that then ever bothered going after her for the murder, and that happens though also we know in wrongful conviction cases when the prosecutor and law enforcement. They don't believe it's even with her admitting it. Still, believe now. She just said that She feels bad or you know what I mean so. Gail Potter didn't really wind up doing much time at all but Kathleen Zellner. Really showed you know how incredibly smart she was so Kathleen. Zellner has gone on to represent a number of other people, but I would wanNA talk about two more cases. The ones that maybe people know about so the first one another notable case of Kathleen is the Ryan. Case I. Believe, Amy. You know this quite well, so if I get anything wrong here I'M GONNA. Just step in and just correct me. Okay, sure I met Ryan a couple of times at the innocence network. Conference is very nice guy. That's right. Does he attend all regularly Yep, and is he usually a featured speaker there I'm sometimes sometimes. He's just there a lot of. Just go to you know for the Camaraderie. And also they attend different sessions with other exonerates and right. Okay, let's talk about Ryan Ferguson for people who don't know him at age. Seventeen Ryan Ferguson was arrested for the murder of sports editor Kent Height Holds a man that Ryan didn't know Ken had been beaten to death in the parking lot behind where he worked in an eyewitness reported seeing two college age kids outside near Kent's car. That night, Ryan and his friend. Charles Erickson were in the area attending Halloween. Parties Erickson had apparently a lot of drugs in his system, so he'd done a couple of different types of drugs, and he subsequently became convinced that he was somehow involved in the murder, so he turned himself into the police, claiming that he had dreamlike visions of what he and Ryan had done Ryan. Ryan when they pulled him in, did talk to the police, but he absolutely maintained his innocence from the beginning, said absolutely not I was not involved. I know nothing about this Erickson actually had no memory of the evening, either, but by trial time he had a story about him and Ryan for which he was offered a deal. His story was obviously kind of convincing trial. A janitor also positively identified Ryan as being in the parking lot, so you have an eyewitness identification here and you have Ryan's friends, saying yes, we did this together. A confession and eyewitness identification, which are two of the reasons why most wrongful convictions happen right so again re Ryan's at trial. He maintained his innocence, but he was convicted of the murder and sentenced to forty years in prison, despite there being no physical evidence whatsoever to tie him to the crime later both. End The janitor recanted saying that they had both lied. Due to police coercion so Erickson was confused. I think you know he was kind of convinced as to historian locked into a that, he would tell but the janitor. Why would he lie right? That was what I wondered. So do you know this is something about him? There was like a picture of the boys in the newspaper after they were already arrested. That's something I may. May have been the case, but the reason why he lied and why he was so easily coerced is because he said that he felt scared by the police because he was actually a registered sex offender, and so he was like terrified of the police and I'm sure it was biased account or so he felt that kind of pressure, so they both took the stand later table said that they lied. Ferguson was released and exonerated. Exonerated after serving nine years in prison may be closer to ten as I understand it, but I. I also when I was reading. Some of the article saw that he wound up staying. They didn't release him right away. So after the testimony of these two, they got on the stand they recanted. Zellner said she thought Ferguson would be released pretty quickly because that's usually the way that would work, but I think he was. was still in prison for another year or so I think it took really quite some time, but he was exonerated and net release the documentary dream killer about the case, if you WANNA watch it in which Zellner is also featured and Ryan. Ferguson goes down as one of her one of her exonerations. Amy, you want to add anything to that. I'm not sure I missed anything. You did a good a good summary there, but. Just something that shows Ryan's character is even though Eriksson implicated him. He's actually fighting for Ericsson is in prison serving twenty five years right now. Actually I think it's for lying under oath, but either way Ryan is trying to get him out even though he's screwed him so bad I did not know that so I saw that Eriksson he got twenty five years in the plea deal. That was the original plea deal in which he said because he said he committed the murder to. They did it together, so I had no idea that Ferguson was. was trying to help get him ow, so although he did the plea deal for twenty five I think even if if Ryan is exonerated based on the fact that this crime didn't occur that way, then that would also mean that Ericsson probably is innocent as well right, so they really can only hold him then on lying under oath I would think the same thing, too, if the if he's exonerated, although no. If you think about it this way, they could say like Eriksson. Committed the Crime Yeah Ferguson is exonerated Ericsson dragged him and says. I think Ferguson. He knows he was with Ericsson so I think that's why he's so adamant on helping him because he feels bad for the skin, kids clear. Up because he didn't do it, I was with him at night right. I think you're right. Though I think that really indicates his character. I've also seen him. Speak I've not met him like you have, but I've watched him and I mean he really seems like he's just seems like such solid character and his family, and you just seems he seems like a good person. Yeah, I was GONNA. Say his family's often at those conferences as well. Well and they're a really amazing group of people. And they really advocated for him, and stood by him, and he had a great Ti- was. He's one of the lucky ones. You had a great team of people and one of the lucky ones who had Kathleen Zellner to represent him, so let's talk about Steven Avery, because most of our listeners will probably know Kathleen Zellner because of Steven Avery case and I'm not sure amy of you watched. Murder and making of a murderer part partout. I'm embarrassed to say. I've never watched it. In its entirety I've seen bits and pieces I've written a book, so I know the case well, but okay so Zellner Kathleen. Zellner doesn't come in until part to. Be. Handling his appeal I know a lot of our listeners. Watch have watched this, but for those of you who may be fuzzy and some of the details? We don't know the whole story. I'm just GONNA. Give you a brief background on every case. Steven Avery was wrongfully convicted for a brutal rape, a crime for which he exonerated with DNA evidence after spending eighteen years in prison. Amy, what's the average for exonerates for the time they spend in prison. I don't know that off hand there's. There's different because some estimates only include DNA exonerated. Some include everyone. It ranges around twelve years some times as high as fifteen but I. I would say thirteen if I had okay actually what I felt, the number was so good. I know amy. You know the case, so maybe you could give us a little more background on the wrongful conviction and exoneration, not surprisingly because we know I witnessed identification errors are the number one factor in Ronco convictions the victim pick them from a lineup. But what I find the most striking here is he had an alibi, not only did he have a receipt? He had eighteen eye witnesses who vouched for him regardless he was still convicted of rape and attempted murder and something else about this case I wanNA point out is the real perpetrator actually remained free, and he ended up raping more women, and if you look at the pictures, they actually did look alike as we see. They looked a lot alike I agree. Thank you for that background. Yeah. I forgot he had eighteen eye witnesses I. mean it's just you don't think this kind of thing is going to happen, but obviously our listeners and other people in this area. No, it does. Just two years after Avery's release, he was arrested for the murder of Theresa. How a young photographer who went missing after her trip to the avery salvage yard she had planned to take some photos of vehicle for auto trader magazine. How becks remains her buried bones were later found on the avery property along with her vehicle and other items, and every was arrested. In the course of the investigation police interrogated avery nephew, a then sixteen year old Brandon Dessie, who had a low Iq, and who would confess during a very questionable interview that he and his uncle Rape Theresa before murdering her and burning her body. Have you ever seen the DOC- interviews? Yes, I have I mean it's. It is hard to watch it. It's it is hard to watch, and I encourage people to watch it because it's hard to watch because you need to see and you. You need to see how you feel about this. So dossier and avery were both convicted of the murder, but in two thousand sixteen s he's conviction was overturned, but later the appellate court restored the conviction in the US Supreme Court refused to hear his case, which means that Brendan Desi is out of legal options. He's done with his appeals process. I mean there's really not much more. That's going to happen for. Him I mean I'm shocked. I was really shocked. Scream court actually refused to. To hear the case, I really really believe they would I do think he may have a case similar tastes in Toya Brown where he might start gaining a lot of you know a lot of flooding a lot of support people standing behind him at maybe it'll get the attention and maybe clemencies in his future. Who knows yeah? I guess that would be as he's out of appeals, but you're right. I think there's been heavy strong interest in his case, a lot of sympathy towards. Towards him and I could see that as an option, so thank you for pointing that out. Okay Avery as always maintained his innocence and Zellner said she took on his case because she was troubled by the revelation of certain damning evidence, that did not appear during the initial searches of his home, but was only later discovered by police officers state police officers. Just you know who are part of the civil suit that avery filed against them for his wrongful conviction for thirty six million dollars. That's a that's a strong incentive you know. They searched his his, I think it was his trailer mobile. They searched his mobile home in. Initially didn't find Theresa's keys, but then on a second search when they came back, they find a single keynoter keys, but a single key, and it was like so Zellner said she was watching making a murderer, and she was like I. was a little bit troubled by some of the things that I saw here, and she said that she he was innocent, so she took on his case and she's been making some progress with this case. There's been a little bit of. Of a back and forth like she's gotten some hearings, you know he probably wouldn't have gotten without her, but there was a request so i. think she was granted a motion to examine Theresa Hell becks remains, but then I believe the the remains are the bones. The police turned it over to Therese's family. So I think the motion is kind of in a I'm not really sure what's happening exactly with that kind of Nikki Gray area right here. I'm not sure if. It's very confusing. Right she. All I can say is that she still in the appeals process? They still have upcoming hearings so I mean. Avery got a great shot if he's with Kathleen Zellner, somebody once asked me what does indirect appeal. What does Melanie McGuire need? And unlike she needs a confession from someone else, or Kathleen Zellner represent her, because I can't. I can't think of what else the case Lot Kathleen Zellner only represents people she believes are innocent i. Believe that Melanie's and I know that's a great question. I would also like to say for this I know Kathleen I did I reached out. I sent her an email just to see if she would be interested in interviewing I haven't heard back remember but I suspect she's busy. Exonerating people left and right quickly before we get to the end here, but I always wondered. What your opinion of do you have? An opinion of Avery in terms of his innocence or guilt is so the fact that Kathleen Zellner took the case made me believe more strongly in his innocence, because I trust her judgment, but I go back and forth you also I. Don't know if you came across the fact that there. There was like a vial of blood from an earlier case. His blood was on file because he had a prior record. Even before the wrongful conviction, and they found that it had been unsealed and punctured I saw that, too, but then they tested the blood, and they couldn't find a preservative, but then someone said wouldn't necessarily show up, so there's a lot of things that could be shady, but could also be nothing also. Also there's something about the jurors like there were two jurors that had relatives that worked for the county in which she had the lawsuit pending like one was like a sheriff's father and someone else, and I. Don't remember that well. The case is such a rabbit hole I don't know and then there was something not long ago. where like an inmate confessed to killing theresa? How back did you hear that one I heard. Heard that, too, but they they didn't give it much credibility. You know usually you can't give those things much credibility, so I go back and forth I think if I had to say, I would say I think he's innocent. Because I think corruption exists, and as much as I would hate to believe, it could exist at this level I think it. Could we've seen? Yes, you see in cases in which it does and. I think once someone's wrongfully convicted. It doesn't look good for the police department and those involved put on top of that not always reputation harmed. Now you have this huge lawsuit pending, right? That's that's motive for me. Yeah, that's a fair opinion. People ask me this all the time about avery because it's. So I'm with you. I actually go back and forth all the time to be honest, I can make a justification on both sides. I believe the entire process is tainted. Dirty Trial Dirty K.. Everything is tainted about this, but if I had to go with like if someone was forcing me to to make an opinion I would actually go with guilty, and I'm not sure that I have the anything other than just a gut feeling at the end, so the reason I also when I, you know like I said I went back, and forth a little, too is if he was wrongfully convicted for eighteen years. You Know I. I did some of my research on the effects of those who are wrongfully convicted yes, and individuals who are wrongly convicted. Obviously we could talk for hours about what that does to an individual, so it doesn't surprise me. When exonerates and up committing crimes because of what they're dealing with right, but it's rare that they commit a violent crime. Right at right now. I don't know okay. That's fair. That's fair enough. Hey, you're the expert in this area. SO Steve With Kathleen Zellner and I would say that you know. She's going to give him the best shot that he's going to have at exoneration. If that's to be I, will just up with a couple of things she you look at how many wards and the recognition she's gotten. It's a long list. Makes you feel like Shit about your makes me feel very under accomplished. She's the only recognized trial attorney to in five multimillion dollar jury trials in under one year. What if that's correct one year and she was kind of blase about it like I saw something that she was Kinda like well. Everyone was ready to go to trial. I kinda just had to do it and that's how it happens. She's been named top ten attorneys. One of America's greatest lawyers top one hundred trial lawyers person of the year in two thousand, Fourteen by Chicago Lawyer Magazine, most influential women in the United States and And the list goes on and on Cathlene owner is Rockstar and I hear that she is a lovely person as well Emily Nestor met her in an airport. Did you know that no, I didn't are you kidding? Can you imagine being a true crime podcast and seeing Kathleen Zellner I? Mean I don't want to say this, but I would die. I mean my heart would stop I. Don't think it could contain the excitement, but. I mean in the end so usually. We get to the end and we do like our opinion. Our opinion here is like I'm sure Zell Kathleen Zoellner is inspirational to me. She gives me hope that justices possible, but even so it's it's so difficult and I i. Think Zellner has got a real tenacity. She's really special and I really hope that. Her Work Inspires other young attorneys to trailblazers with her and Kathleen. If you are listening, please call us if you ever come to new. York we'd love to treat you to dinner. Oh, please make our dreams come true Kathleen. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you enjoyed the episode. We'll see next time. Thanks, Amy, thank you. Meghan! Women Crime is written and hosted by Megan sacks and Amy Schlossberg. Our producer and editor is James Varga. Our music is composed by desert media. If you enjoy the show, even get access to add free episodes exclusive Ama's and other bonus content for small of contribution through Patriot to find out more visit patron dot com slash women incline. In Immune. Sources for today's episode include an article by Esquire magazine a Chicago Tribune article. Newsweek article, the dream, killer, documentary and a Los Angeles Times article.
The Scissor Sisters Pt. 2
"Due to the graphic nature of this crime listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of sexual situations, suicide and body, mutilation that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen. Muhammad Boubacar read the paper in disbelief police were looking for any information that might help them identify an unknown body pulled from the Royal canal as Muhammad scan the photos of the recovered clothing an alarm bell went off in his head. He recognized the white soccer jersey in the photo. It was his friend forest favorite. When was the last time he saw Fara, and his girlfriend Kathleen a month ago? Or maybe it was too. He remembered running into the couple walking through Dublin city centre, Kathleen, two adult daughters were with them too, far was drunk. And none of them look like they were in a particularly good mood with as miserable. Essay looked Muhammed wasn't surprised when he heard far broke up with. Kathleen shortly after they were never a good match and the relationship was volatile. But did they actually break up? Muhammad looked closer at the picture of the clothes, he became convinced something was wrong. He took the bus to the police station and told the officer behind the desk. I know the identity of the person pulled from the canal. Hi, I'm Lena hops. And this is crimes of passion, apar- cast original, the legal definition of a crime of passion is a murder that occurs in the throes of extreme emotion leaving no time to reflect on the consequences. But in this show, we explore passionate crimes. How does marriage progress from husband and wife to killer and victim or killer and co-conspirator, if there's a thin line between love and hate what manipulates our relationships and a deadly results last week, we explored how an affair developed between Kathleen mo- hall, and far, nor when the violence in their relationship escalated? Kathleen began to fear for her life. It all culminated in a violent confrontation between Fara and Kathleen adult daughters. Linda and Charlotte, Mojo all this week. We will look at the deadly consequences of that fight the investigation. Into what happened and the trial that followed at par cast. We are grateful for you. Our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on Facebook and Instagram at par cast and Twitter at podcast network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review wherever you are listening. It really does help us. We also know have merchandise head depar- cast dot com slash merch. For more information. By March of two thousand five forty nine year old Kathleen Mulhall, and thirty eight year old far nor had been together for nearly four years. Their entire relationship had been rife with shouting matches and physical abuse. But Kathleen in love with Fara stayed, in spite of the violence and in spite of her growing fear that he would one day go too far. On March twentieth two thousand five Kathleen in forest spent the day drinking and taking drugs with Kathleen, two adult daughters Charlotte, and Linda, eventually, the force in return to Kathleen enviros apartment, there, the combination of liquor and ecstasy proved to be a deadly cocktail. Fara drunk, drunken, high became fixated on thirty year old Linda, he grabbed her by the waist and refuse to let go coming onto her. Kathleen, shoved Fara trying to make him. Let go of her daughter, he turned and looked at Kathleen with dark is, then he dragged his finger across his throat. The message was clear. Kathleen pleaded to the girls. Please kill him for me kill him. Or he'll kill me twenty one year old Charlotte grabbed a small paring knife, off the counter, and showed the blade to Fara commanding him to let go of Linda, the kitchen was small with all four adults packed inside. No room to run Charlotte yelled at Fara, again, let her go. But he held fast. Linda struggling against his strong grip. Charlotte lifted the knife Linda closed. Her eyes. Fara, finally, let go clutching his neck, instead, he sputtered in gurgle, as blood quickly seeped through his fingers. He took a few stumbling steps forward and called out for Kathleen, then he collapsed. Kathleen stood frozen watching the red pool around him. Grow Charlotte still holding the knife and surging with Drennan approached the fallen man thoughts of her mother's abuse at his hands overwhelmed, her. She stamped him again. And again, in a fury unable to stop herself. Linda still high from the ecstasy hallucinated that Fara, was trying to get up from the ground. She grabbed a hammer from the counter and rush to her sister's side to help swinging the hammer down until her arms were tired. They sat down next to far as body exhausted and covered in blood and cried. Eventually the sisters went into the living room were Kathleen sat on the couch and silent shock. She stared straight ahead at nothing win. Linda told her far was dead. Heavy psalms racked her body, the girls cried again to when they calmed down the women talked about what to do with virus body. They had to get out of the apartment, but none of them had a car. It's not clear who I suggested it but they all agreed that the only way to get rid of the body was in pieces. After stealing their nerves with a few more shots of vodka. Linda and Charlotte dragged forest body to the bathroom. Kathleen stayed on the couch in the living room still not saying a word after searching, the kitchen drawers, the sharpest thing they could find was a nine inch breadknife the sisters looked down at forest body. And then at each other were, they really going to do this Charlotte took up the knife. I going to work on forest right leg putting out of her mind the reality of what she was doing. Please note, I am not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but I have done a lot of research for the show, according to license clinical social worker, and therapist, lemme show Lindsey approximately seventy three percent of people experience, dissociate of state either during or immediately following a traumatic event. This dissociation is a defense mechanism Charlotte. To protect her mind from the horror separated herself from the act, but Linda, wasn't like Charlotte. She was acutely aware of every cut. For four hours, Linda had helped Charlotte hack and hammer at far as body stopping, only when her sobbing made it too difficult to continue her emotions were overwhelming. She felt both intense remorse. An intense revulsion Linda sat back against the bathroom wall to catch her breath. They were nearly done with the gruesome task and then far would be out of her life forever over the last four years. No person had heard her family more than him. She'd seen them bruises on her mother from his hands one night. Kathleen had confessed after too many drinks that he raped her when she refused to have sex with him. But did that mean he deserved to die to be cut apart then Linda remembered the feeling of his breath in her ear whispering, that she was just like her mother? Other she knew that, if they hadn't stopped Fara, he would have raised her to in a sudden rage, Linda Graham, the knife and dismembered. Fara further sawing off his penis. While Linda's actions seem drastic, they're not entirely uncommon in the paper titled homicides with mutilation of the victim's body. Researchers identified five main types of homicidal, mutilation. The majority of forest dismemberment fell into the defensive category. The dismemberment was an attempt to hide the crime, but we see a second type with Linda's decision to cut off ours, penis, the aggressive category. It was motivated solely by intense anger. She was sending a message that Fara wasn't going to rape anyone ever again. The last task was to decapitate. Fara, Linda covered his face with a towel so they wouldn't have to look at him while they did it with this job, complete Linda completely broke down in tears, Charlotte. Forced herself to keep her composure as she comforted. Linda, what's done was done. It was time to make sure they didn't get caught. It was now after eleven pm, if they worked quickly, they would be protected by the dark Charlotte gathered fires remains in black trash bags but when she picked up virus head Linda stocked her. If someone found the bags apart the head would make identification easy. Police would go straight to Kathleen store. She told Charlotte to put the head aside, and they deal with it later, even with the body in pieces. There were too many bags for the women to carry in one trip. They really needed a car. There was only one person they could think of who both owned a car and would do just about anything for Linda and Charlotte. Their father, John Mulhall, Linda handed her phone to Kathleen. They knew John would never answer a call from his ex wife, but he would answer one from Linda's phone day or night. John picked up. But when he heard Kathleen's voice on the other end he snapped what do you want? Kathleen told him there was a problem having to do with Linda and Charlotte, and he needed to come over right away. When she wouldn't tell him what the problem was. He hung up on her. He was in playing whatever game she was trying to engage him in. But a few minutes later, he called back. He would come over just to check on his girls. Linda felt immediate relief. Her dad was coming her dad would fix things. As John drove across Dublin, Linda, and Charlotte, scrub, the bathroom, it hadn't been cleaned at all in the form months. Kathleen and far had been living there. And now on top of all the grime was blood tissue and bone fragments, Shirley didn't even notice the clock when it turned over to midnight, her twenty second birthday, she was too, busy scrubbing, John arrived around one, a m Linda, and Charlotte hid in the bedroom with their ear against the door listening to Kathleen, explain what had happened. John saw the black bags stacked in the corner. Was that Fara, when Kathleen said, yes? John yelled and cursed at her the girls came out of the bedroom crying, and begging him to help them. He looked at his daughter's covered in blood and told them they were on their own. He was not going to help cover up a murder. He stormed. Out of the apartment window felt her stomach titan. John was her way out of this mess. There was no way they could do this themselves. Linda began to panic as she pictured child services leading her kids off to one of their cars, while she was taken away in handcuffs. She couldn't let that happen with new resolve Linda rejoined Charlotte, and Kathleen and scrubbing the apartment clean, but as they cleaned Linda couldn't stop looking at the black bags. How were they going to get rid of them? Coming up the mohawk women continue to cover up a murder. When you're in between episodes of crimes of passion, you should check out a really great podcast. I love listening to call generation, y it isn't a par cash show, but it delves into unsolved murders. Wrongful convictions missing persons mysteries and all things true crime from books and magazines to cable series and documentaries true crime, murders and mysteries have gone hand in hand and the public has only grown more fascinated with it. Generation my podcast feels that the unanswered questions in these crimes drive people to look for answers so they can better understand why someone was murdered. And in some cases question if the victim even met with foul play at all each week generation Y hosts just an Erin examiner case, discuss its details. Then give their takes on what they believe happened and why subscribed to generation y podcast on apple podcast cast box. Stitcher, or your favorite podcast app by searching for generation, y and tapping the subscribe button, you can also visit their website at gen Y pod dot com. That's G. N. W. H. Y. P O, D dot com. Now back to the story. As March twentieth rolled into March twenty first two thousand five forty nine year old Kathleen, Mulhall and her daughter's thirty year old Linda and twenty two year old Charlotte, scrubbed blood off the walls and floor while discussing what to do next together. They had killed and dismembered. Thirty eight year old far nor they gathered the pieces of his body in black trash bags without a car. They had to dump the bag somewhere acceptable on foot. They decided on the Royal canal, which runs through Dublin just two three minute walk away. Kathleen, gave the girls clean clothes to change into, they threw their bloodied shirts into one of the trash bags and discussed to cover story. Kathleen would tell people that far had run out on her. He had no family in Ireland. His circle of friends was used to him dropping in and out of their lives and his job was through a temporary agency. To them, he would just be another employee who quit without notice who knows when if ever, he would be reported missing to make the story more convincing. They threw all a forest clothes in the bags if anyone came around, it should look like he had cleared out, Charlotte, put far as jewelry and cell phone aside. Though, she could sell those though, initially hoping to dispose Afars remains in the dark. They didn't leave the apartment until seven AM Charlotte and Linda each stuffed a few of the garbage bags into duffle bags looking, as though they were headed to the gym instead they walked to the canal. They scan the area for people. No one was out. They each open their bags and dumped the contents until the water it took several trips from the apartment to the bridge to dispose of the eight bags of FARs remains each time. They watch to make sure they say. Sink in the canal, all that remained was far as head. Linda said they needed to bury it far enough away that if it was found in wouldn't be connected to any body part that might be pulled from the canal. One bag was manageable, even without a car. They could take the bus. At one PM, all three women got on a bus carrying forest head in a bag and cross town to time in park tense from the lack of sleep and the trauma, the women quietly bickered as they walked through the park. They couldn't agree on the best place to bury the head no place was hidden enough or deserted enough Charlotte, frustrated and ready for the whole mess to be over. Took the head and walked towards the woods. She knelt on the ground and dug through the wet dense soil with her hands. No one had thought to bring a shovel eventually, she dunk as deeply as she could and decided it was good enough. She took forest head out of the bag by the hair and stuck it in the hole. It's still stuck out a fair amount. So she used the dirt she had excavated and padded it around more or less concealing it as Charlotte buried the head Linda sat on a nearby. Bench looking around she acted like she was keeping watch. But mostly she was avoiding looking at Fara of all the things they had done windy felt the most affected by forest head. She could see the other pieces of Fara, as just body parts but his face that was him. She couldn't stand to look at it. When they got back to the apartment Kathleen told her daughters that if they hadn't killed Fara, he probably would have beaten her to death before long they had saved her life window found little comfort in her words and left soon after when she got home, she collapsed into bed completely drained, yet, she could barely sleep played by the memories of what she done. Linda took such a long pool from the vodka bottle that when she swallowed her eyes teared up the burn of the liquor permeated her whole face. She screwed the cap back on the bottle and returned it to its hiding place in her nightstand. She didn't want one of the kids to see it in her bedroom. Booze was the only way to make it through the night. Now, if she stayed sober she'd stare at the ceiling for hours watching it all happen over and over again, anytime she was reminded about it. She took another pool of vodka. Even with the drinks, she still couldn't stop the nightmares. Linda saw solitu- images on repeat I forest head everything about it the way it looked the fear of someone finding it in the park. Sometimes it even spoke to her, then she saw her children being taken away. As a sal- her handcuffed in a police car. The more she had these dreams. The more Linda became convinced that someone was going to find forest head she had to move it, it was too dangerous not to. When Charlotte and Kathleen heard Linda's plans for relocation, they immediately tried to talk her out of it. Everyone was buying the story that far had run off with another woman. It wasn't worth the risk of going back to the park Linda agreed for now. But on March thirtieth two thousand five ten days after the murder something surfaced in the water teenage boys, while fishing in the canal spotted what they thought were pieces of a mannequin upon closer inspection. They saw the legs were covered in hair. It was a body. By the time the police arrived, it was getting dark outside. They had to wait until the next day to search the canal Kathleen saw the police presence along the shore from her apartment window. She joined the crowds and blended in as a nosy neighbour. She listened with mock surprise when someone told her a body had been found, but no head investigators launched a massive media campaign to identify the headless man. They took photographs of the clothing found with the remains, including a white Ireland, soccer jersey and publish the photos in newspapers. Many tips came in throughout April two thousand five, but none of them went anywhere the longer it took to identify Fara, the more paranoid. Linda became about the head. It was only a matter of time before someone was curious about the old lump of dirt at the park, a few weeks after police fish VAR. Body out of the canal Linda went through with her plan to relocate it. She later swore that when she looked at the partially decomposed face it began speaking to her. Linda was experiencing a psychotic break known as brief psychotic, disorder, according to the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders this rare condition involves the same symptoms of psychosis. But generally last no longer than a month. With a full recovery expected it is often caused after a major stressor or trauma. Linda took the decomposing head to a different park and reburied it, then she went home and drank until she passed out when she woke up, she was still paranoid about someone discovering, the head in wasn't enough to move it. She had to destroy it. She went back to the park and an earth ahead for a second time, she put it in her son, schoolbag and brought it to a scrap yard, along with a hammer. And a bottle of vodka. Linda sent drinking with the head apologizing to. For over and over again for what they had done to him, then she beat the bag with the hammer destroying the skull inside exhausted. And drunk Linda passed out in the field. She woke up shivering and disoriented unsure of how long she had been out. She got up and dumped the fragments of school into a ditch and through the hammer and after them she then burned the bag and ran home. Over the next few weeks, the police focused on identifying the remains on may ninth two thousand five nearly two months after the murder. Investigators got the break they were hoping for forest friend Muhammed Boubacar came forward. He and seen far on March twentieth with Kathleen and her daughters he hadn't seen him since, but he remembered the Ireland soccer jersey. Fara was wearing that day. He was sure it was the same one he saw in the newspaper though forest height, NIH did not match the estimates from the autopsy he was added to the list of potential matches the investigation into far was complicated. However, when police discovered that much of his life was ally for starters, Fara wasn't from Somalia, he was from neighboring Kenya. He had lied, so. He would qualify for asylum as a refugee. His name wasn't even foreign nor. It was shayla saieed Salim, the wife, he claimed was killed was actually alive and well in Kenya raising their three children who far acclaimed were missing with Boris life before Ireland. A bit murky police started with what they did know he was last seen in Dublin with his girlfriend Kathleen, and her apartment was his last known address. Kathleen voluntarily went to the station to answer questions and told police that Fara had packed his things and left back in February. They ran a check on his Bank account, it hadn't been touched in six weeks, then they checked his cellphone records. There were no calls. Log from late March until early June. Then someone started using the phone again. They traced it to a man named flory and Williams. He told police, he bought the phone from a coworker, John mole hall, if our had left Kathleen for another woman why had he left his phone behind for her ex husband to sell it didn't make sense. Police focused their attention on the Mojo family. Then on July eleventh, two thousand five the police caught a huge break. An inmate at we built prison. Call the police and said he knew the body in the canal was who killed him. And how they did it the caller, James Mojo. Kathleen, and John's oldest son, according to James Kathleen visited him in prison shortly after the murder, and broke down telling him everything he didn't believe her story until he saw the body in the canal on the news. It's unclear what motivated him to come forward. Perhaps his conscience, perhaps, the ten thousand euro reward for information. Investigators also talked to John junior, the other Mojo, brother, imprisoned at wheatfield, John told them the same story, adding that his mother had set up the entire scenario. She purposely put Linda and Charlotte in the position to kill Fara, because he was abusing her John junior also implicated, his father, and the crime saying that John senior had gone back to the apartment and help dispose of the bloody clothes and the body when police searched Kathleen's apartment, they found blood between the floorboards it matched the DNA of the body parts when they compared the sample to one of forest a strange children. There was no doubt. He was the dead man on August. Third two thousand five police arrested John Kathleen, Linda and Charlotte Mulhall in connection too far as murder. But the mo- halls all denied any and all involvement in forest debt, John sore that he didn't know what had happened to Fara and denied his sons accusations said, he'd help clean up the crime scene. Kathleen stuck with her story that Fara had left her. Linda denied being with Sarah and her mother at all. On the day, he went missing when confronted with Muhammed citing, she said she was so drunk. She couldn't remember, Charlotte, also claimed she was too drunk that day to recall, anything after holding the Mohawks for twelve hours, investigators were forced to release all four when they had nothing other than hearsay to support charging them. Police had found only a small amount of blood in the floor boards and nowhere else, it was possible that far had cut himself in the four months. He lived there in the absence of more evidence police needed to. Get one of the MO halls to confess. They felt that their best hope was with Linda who was very emotional during the questioning while Kathleen and Charlotte remained cool. Police didn't know how. Right. They were by the time Linda got home. She realized it was just a matter of time before the other shoe dropped. She knew the twelve hour she spent with investigators was just the beginning Lee weren't going to let this go the more. She worried the more she drank John, both frustrated and worried. Cokes Linda to go to the police. None of this would end until police how the answers they were looking for Linda, eventually gave in and agreed to speak with police at her father's house. But when lead investigator Detective Inspector Christopher mingun arrived Linda balked, even if she cooperated, they could mock her up for twenty years, or more. She would come out of jail, a grandmother, having missed every moment of her children's lives. She had already gotten away with. With it for five months if she stayed quiet she could stay free. She could keep her kids. She told DIA mingun. She had nothing to say after all, before leaving he warned her the investigation wasn't going away. She had a choice to make. Up next, the investigation into the murder of foreign nor intensifies now the conclusion of the story. By August of two thousand five thirty year old Linda MO hall as well as her sister, and parents was a prime suspect and detective Christopher Mangan's murder investigation after twelve hours of questioning Linda appeared, ready to tell the detective everything. But at the last moment, she changed, her mind, then three hours later, she changed her mind. Again, Linda needed absolution. She also hoped confessing. The truth might bring her more lenient sentence. She called back Mangan and told him everything after recounting the events of the night of March twentieth. She brought him to the scrap yard where she dumped the broken fragments of forest skull, though. Police weren't able to actually locate the pieces hoping for continued cooperation, Mangan. Let Linda go home. Home rather than arresting her over the next two days, she continued to meet with police, leading them to other key, scenes, such as the park where the head was originally buried a search of the parks lake recovered. The murder weapons though. Linda often sobbed her her statements to police afterwards. She felt much better. A burden had been lifted for the first time in months, she slept. Well, she tried to make things up to her kids cooking, their favourite meals, and meeting them after school, staying more or less sober. But none of these improvements changed what she had done on September fourteenth two thousand five Mangan had every detail from Linda, he needed, and it was time to take the case to court. Even though she knew it was coming windows, still wept while she was arrested by mingun warrants. Were also issued that day for forty nine year old Kathleen and twenty two year old Charlotte. Kathleen had moved an hour away, soon after the first twelve hour interrogation with police, she stopped contacting her family, and none of them knew where she was. But it didn't take long for police to catch up to her. She was arrested the day after Linda, she still stuck to her initial denials, when confronted with Linda's confession. She described her daughter as a mentally, unstable drug user, though, she conceded, she wouldn't be surprised if Linda had killed Fara, eventually Mangan ran out of time to hold Kathleen. He couldn't charge her based on only Linda statement, he needed evidence or they needed a confession. Kathleen was offering up neither before she left. Kathleen told investigators that when the truth finally came out. She expected an apology from them, and then she walked out a free woman. It took investigators of full month to track down Charlotte. They brought her in for questioning in October two thousand five Charlotte's initial statement to the police was quite different than her sisters. She claimed Linda was trying to cover for their mother. She said that Kathleen had murdered and dismembered Fara, while the sisters were not there. They did however help our clean up the scene. Megan sense that Charlotte's priority was looking out for Linda leveraging that he asked her if she loved Linda, when she said she did, he told her that lying would only make things worse for her sister. Charlotte broke she started to cry. Mingun prodded her slowly. What happened? She whispered everything. But Linda said. After she confessed to Megan. Charlotte was arrested and charged with murder. Both sisters were released on bail while they waited for their day in court. Linda soon turned back to drinking and drugs. She even spent ten days in a psychiatric hospital then in early December of two thousand five Linda got into an explosive argument with John, that would have terrible consequences. This past year had been the worst of Linda's life even worse than when her parents split up even worse than temporarily losing custody of her kids by now. Window was nearly broken. It was only a few weeks until Christmas. And she had planned to spend the afternoon, picking up a few presents for her children. She knew how special this Christmas had to be for them. But when she went to retrieve the cash, she'd squirrelled away, for their presence Linda found only an empty box someone had stolen it, not someone it had to have been Charlotte. Window seed that the discovery she was about to go to prison, and she couldn't even give her family. One last happy memory. Just then John senior came home. He'd been out at a pub with his brother, Eric and youngest daughter nineteen year old Marie. They trotted into the kitchen. Full of good food and conversation. It made Linda see bread. She screamed at her father, all of this was his fault. She wouldn't even be going to jail if he hadn't pressured her into confessing she laid into him calling him a terrible father. No wonder Kathleen ended up with someone as bad as far after years of being with him. Then she burst into tears shocked. John immediately, tried to comfort her, he promised to do what ever he could to help her as John tried to calm his daughter down. She told him about the stolen money. John was furious. He grabbed his keys and left to go. Find charlotte. He was going to get the money back for Linda's kids. Eric worried about his brother decided to stay the night with his knees. It was late already, and he wanted to make sure John was okay when he got back. Eric dozed off waiting, but John never came home. When John still hadn't shown by the next evening. Eric reported him missing a few hours later. Police knocked at the Mojo family home, they'd found him as John drove around looking for Charlotte, his mind wandered to the pressure, his family was under and his inability to truly help them, James and John were already in prison, and Linda, and Charlotte were headed there to what kind of father ends up with four incarcerated children. Maybe they would have gotten away with it. If he hadn't interfered, if he hadn't pushed Linda to confess. John pulled over alongside some woods at Phoenix Park in Dublin. He walked into the woods short distance then quickly scrawled notes saying that all of his belongings, should go to his nineteen year old daughter Marie, and stuffed it into his pocket with a rope from his van he fashioned a new. Around a tree branch and hung himself. Some wondered if John's death was evidence of greater involvement in the murder and dismemberment of Fara than anyone has led on. But psychologists Jesse burying said in his book, suicidal why we kill ourselves that there is rarely one factor that leads to someone taking their own life. However, in the vast majority of cases, social problems. Particularly concerns about what others think is one of the factors John had been preoccupied with the news coverage of the investigation, and how he and his family were being portrayed. The newspapers had dubbed Charlotte and Linda, the scissor sisters because of the dismemberment, the scissor sisters were a popular pop rock band in the UK and the nickname stuck. John hated it. He also carried a lot of personal guilt, if he had been a better husband Kathleen, never would have been. Mixed up with Fara at all, John. Whatever his faults had been the stabilizing factor in the Mojo, family Kathleen was in the wind so Linda and Charlotte. Now thirty one and Twenty-three face their October two thousand six trial largely alone. The women both pled, not guilty, hoping to show that they had committed the murder and self defense or at the very least that they'd been provoked by far as actions. Both of the sisters confessions were read to the jury Charlotte, who sat without showing a motion for much of the trial became overwhelmed, when the details of the murder and dismemberment were read, she told her attorney she was going to be ill. And the court had to adjourn for the day, eventually the jury found Charlotte guilty of murder and Linda guilty of manslaughter Charlotte received a mandatory life sentence eligible for parole after seven years windows sentence for manslaughter. However, was at the judge's discretion, generally those convicted of manslaughter in Ireland are rarely sentenced to more than eight years. Therefore there were gasps in the courtroom when Linda was sentenced to. Fifteen years, the judge said that he would have given her eighteen but he took the cooperation with police into consideration. In April two thousand seven six months after the mole sisters convictions. Kathleen was charged for her role in the cover up. However, she had gone back into hiding, the rumor was she had fled the country journalists Mick McCaffrey, wrote a book about the Mojo case called the Irish scissor sisters McCaffrey managed to track down, Kathleen, and December of two thousand seven he found her living in London, under the name Kathy ward, he informed Dublin police and on February twelfth two thousand eight they showed up on her doorstep. Kathleen voluntarily returned to Ireland where she was arrested and charged with aiding and abetting a crime. She pled guilty and received a five year sentence as of this recording Charlotte Mulhall now thirty five is incarcerated at Limerick prison. She has been denied parole since I becoming eligible. And two thousand thirteen Kathleen Mulhall now fifty five was released at the end of her sentence in two thousand eleven Linda Mojo now forty three was released in January of two thousand eighteen after completing seventy five percent of her sentence, this automatic reduction in sentence is standard in Ireland, perhaps the forgotten victims in this tragedy. Our forest family in Kenya. They relied on the money, he sent to survive, his wife and mother have pleaded with the mole halls to reveal the location of forest head, so they could bury forest remains together so far there, please have gone unanswered. Thanks again for tuning into crimes of passion, we will be back Wednesday with another episode. You can find more episodes of crimes of passion as well as all of our casts, other shows, on Spotify, or anywhere. You listen to podcasts. Several of you have asked how to help us, if you enjoy the show, the best way to help is to leave a five star review. Don't forget to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at par cast and Twitter at park has network. We'll see you next time when true love meets true crime. Crimes of passion was created by max Cutler is a production of Cutler media and is part of the park cast network. It is produced by Maxon Ron Cutler with sound design by Michael Eisner production assistance by Ron Shapiro and all liba skin additional production assistance by Maggie admire, and Freddie Beckley. This episode of crimes of passion is written by Charlie WorL. I'm laney. Hobbs. Don't forget to listen to the dark side of it pulls back the curtain to bring you the most salacious stories and disturbing details behind everything we hold most. Dear be sure to search for and subscribe to the dark side of on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please don't forget to rate and review.
Special Edition: #PandemicSelfCare with Kathleen Hanagan
"Welcome to the healing place part coast. Space with inspirational stories of hope. Along with practical advice for your healing journey. Your host Terry Walbrook Trauma Warrior Writer Speaker Blogger. Therapy dog, handler and founder of the same as fumbles of hope project. As a survivor and thrive over Terry's mission is to shine the light of hope into the world by interviewing insightful guests from across the globe. Please stay tuned at the end of today's interview as we honor our sponsors. The healing place. PODCAST is a fiscally sponsored project of fractured atlas. Now. Here's your host. And Trauma Warrior. Terry well brought. Welcome everybody to a special edition of the healing place podcast. I have been. Interviewing past podcast guests, many of whom have joined me on facebook lives and great collection on the facebook page. If you go to facebook the young place podcast, I will try to put a few more out sporadically not on Fridays at seven pm but I'll stick them out here because these are all interviews. That I'm conducting to address. Pandemic Self, care and other care and things we can do to keep ourselves palm in order to create some grounding for feeling a little off center, and then things we can do to help. Others during this time and such an uncertain time in our world so. Yeah take a listen. These are really quick anywhere from fifteen to thirty minute conversations. Just to touch upon. Each of my guests, philosophies, insights and wisdom in regards to. Self Care and other cares until next time. Remember be gentle with yourself. Thanks wishing you health and safety. Hi everybody. It's me again. I. Am back in this tie I Here with Kathleen Hannigan who has joined the on the podcast before and I am just thrilled to have her back with me. Still Welcome Kathleen Daiki so much terry so good to be here. Yeah, absolutely sorry I'm trying to shriek down a screen so I can see us there. We go now I could see. had like four different pages going on so. Yeah, we're here to talk to people about. Is Hope infused stuff and. Coping Skills Zunes strategies. We can utilize during this crazy time in our world. This tool choose time. You're the first thing that comes to me. The chaos we. Were just talking about the chaos, and it's in the fields right. I mean so whether you have the news on or not effects, everybody and There was a statement by NICCI. He said unless there is chaos, you cannot give birth to a dancing star. And and so I like to focus on the dancing star. You know like where we're headed which we don't know. We don't know facts yet, but. My heart of hearts and I am not alone I. Know that we're headed. Toward a a! Much more equitable world. How? Some people call five D fifth dimensional consciousness which. Has Qualities, kindness and truth in Lavin. Gratitude. And energy sources that are unlimited that have been on the planet for a long time. You know so. There's a lot of good coming. This of Is a lot of rough road head to. So I have. Lived my life. Of. Embracing mystery right, and so I love the unknown, and I will admit that this this unknown has me a little rattled, you know. but Many people and I've found over the years in working with many people for thirty years that a lot of people don't like the unknown. They're terrified of it. Particularly if you have. A lot of anxiety festival. You're wired. And let's face it. All TRAUMAS are anxieties ramped up right now. You can't not be. But what I know is that. We. We are evolving so. Evolution means change. And evolution means forward movement. So essentially all changes alternately for the better. It doesn't always go on a straight line though right. And principle actually to live by. Is that all change alternate better depending on how we work with? It. How we! Approach it. And You know. There are people that are intuitive, and there are people who. You know predict the future they tell you about your past lives or that. You know there's all kinds of wonderful teachers on the planet and have been for Awhile now, right? my round has always been the emotional wrong. That's where I. It's like second nature from to be in that realm of as a psychotherapist. And as the oldest of seven children, and having a very challenging father and having to deal with. My own strong, very passionate nature. And the emotional realm. Is Not something that. People have focused on much. Until. We know like your your work your podcast. It's really wonderful in that it does, and so I I've been champion of your work. Thank you do that. And that you know there's the cognitive and there's the there's all the different things that we can deal with. The emotional is what allows. That's what makes us mammal. Are Olympic, systems right and. And the emotions of fear anger sadness, shame joy all of them. They're all important. People mostly like just the good one right joy. took. Peace. An and in this culture. We've been driving. The big machine has been you know. The pace was unsustainable. Let's face it right now. We were all saying that this can't be. If one client said it three weeks ago ten, said it. I meant it unsustainable case, right? and. When you're at that pace, you can't deal with your emotions. Are. Motions don't go that. That fast we just get into instincts of survival. We get into fear. And so the fear has been driving people to to make enough money to do this to do that. And now all those distractions are gone for many people. And for everybody, really be out even if you have a job right now, there's nowhere to go out and have A. Restaurant or meet friends for drinks or anything and. With, those distractions gone. People are having to face their fear. And their sadness. Looking at all the suffering and they're. The feelings of panic. Triggering things for people that have already. Sustain trauma. In spill. It's a big remembering. We're remembering what it feels like to be human and. We have to actually. Deal with that fear now because we can't take it into the future. For Change to happen. We can't take it into the future. Right in where we are now all we have been always been creators. We are co creating a new future. That's beautiful i. read I read something. Today? That was just so beautiful I. think even shared it on the facebook page. podcast page was. that. were. We've all taken a step back and sitting inside of our rooms right in our homes. In our space and it's no, it's no longer about what your sexual orientation. What's the color of your skin? What religion are you? What are you? Democrat Republican independent it's. That we're all human and we are Rancho human race in this together. and. It is just a a moment to take pause and look at how much where connected. Oneness it's the it's the consciousness ominous. Magin itary that we it took this I'll just got. It took this for us to like collectively. At one time get it. Yeah we are so. I mean. Quantum, science is taught us this for a long time, he. Two electrons have been connected to be oxidants of the world and they. One affects the other. We. We live in a quantum field. Where were? You I'm everywhere your everywhere and everybody is. Right it's it's hard for the mind to wrap it rough around that but but. The heart. Has No problem. Now and it's just when you when you think about it as energy. Just uniform fascinating how intertwined we all are with our energy that in that ripple effect of energy that we put out into the world. You are with time to reflect on what want to. And and there are I, don't know how it's been for you I. Mean I've been pretty good? But I had one day last week. It was actually Friday. And I had seen a lot of clients that whole week. And it was a lot of panic going on. I crashed. Friday, I felt like. There was an elephant on my chest. And then I heard from a friend. I have an elephant much. She had it Saturday. Then I heard another. So have you had the elephant on your chest? Raise? Really I've not had it yet. Like warding off the elephants. Well it, it just lands right, and it's like. Yeah, we'll. Depends I think I had not slept enough right and yeah. It's easier for it to happen then. But. It was okay with that and I said No. It's okay to have those days. Yeah Yeah. It's It's part of this. It is part of it, and I think that's the message we want to relate to people is that it's okay to be scared. It's okay to be angry. It's okay to be sad. It's okay to be. Curious of what what the future holds. And that. It's honoring where you are and then helping yourself by finding strategies to bring yourself back to a place, calm and centering end feeling grounded. and. That's the that's what really needs to focus on. And so I'll I'll share a little bit of what I've been doing. Yeah, I have I live with a really really good friend. And I, do we? We do a lot of work together where we run women's groups together and things like that. And and we're really in sync some super lucky. To have that right and so she said. Last week. She said I've really wanted to take on Joe Dispenses course. Is I want to want to go to the big events like that. He has a week long thing and Joe is wonderful at helping people rewire their brains. Basically, he said whatever the feeling is that you have? You can't think a thought. That is any bigger than that feeling. So if you're angry, you can't think thought bigger than anger so you to shift your emotion, but you can also. Buy going dropping inside and a quiet place. You can think of greater thought and then your emotion. Go right so. She said, why don't we? We get his course and then we can do it every morning during this time, so we get up early in. It took two hours every morning. And we have twenty three videos to go. We've done five right, so we undertook a a new like. Of Learning. That is actually helpful to what's going on, so it could I think you could take. Course of learning on an anything could learn to play the UKULELE, but any. Arab issued also said that's been really awesome and. Unser Joe, his techniques are helping so learning something news a good thing right now, And obviously connecting like we've had families zoom sessions. With, kick in. My Mom, and who's going to be ninety, and she's very safely tucked away with my sister. and. My sister's them. You know my brother, so that was that was nice. We did that Virtual T with people! You know lighting a candle every day. There's a candle going I. had that before love it? Again Candle Yeah. I have I go get them at the Latin store, and it's our lady of Guadalupe as on their so expedia reminds me of the divine feminine of the mother and holds us all. On. Every morning when I wake up I. Say thank you and I feel. While still warm feel. The arms of of the divine mother around me. That really helps me. Not. Eating super well. You know staying away from alcohol. You know even though like last night we had wine here. I drink it right now, but it's not. But I purposely didn't even bring it because. I just don't think it's what's needed at the moment, but I think the I haven't I haven't been drinking. But I we were in the grocery store and I was like a beer looks mighty tasting. Your right. Okay. It's fine if you do but I you know I'm I'm GonNa be sixty eight soon so I figure I'm not afraid. About my health. I'm really good about that, but really it's about everyone else and the world. So so sometimes I cry. And I've cried a lot. I let my friend hold me in that. She had day that she was needing to grind now I held her and we. It's not like it's like anything specific. It's just you know. Like, checking in with what's going on here, how many you know again? It's honoring its honoring your emotions. It's honoring where you are with us. And that's very important in in a love that you said connect because spoke with someone earlier today, who she her emphasis was on connect connect connect, and it's very important that we do stay connected, I love the idea of virtual, not yet I. Have to do that. Yeah, yeah, you can have with somebody going to have a meal with so a really good friend is gonNA. Come over. She's been hibernating, so she's GonNa come for dinner Thursday. And we have a friend of Florida, so we're GONNA have. You know put the Zimmerman and have dinner together. Yeah, if the. Reaching out to people I know who are alone do that. Yes. And you know I I. I don't know is questionable. Should I do work with like helping? Elderly get food or anything and I think there are a lot of people doing that, and I have clients. So in focusing on the the immediate that I have in my life used to be. A lot for me to do there But also. Know it really dropping down into the quiet and. Getting really still and. Drop into that place of trust like Rhino. that. I both trust myself and I trust. I trust humanity. Like. I'm not saying I trust our leaders or anything I. Say I. Trust the goodness in humanity. Yes and that. We all made it this far and. Whatever happens with the economy you know like. Mom grew up in the Great Depression. I heard a lot about that and how they got through. Got Through helping one another yeah. And, I just was going to say the helpers, and how many people are stepping up and being helpers? Which is beautiful to say? Yeah, I love so. How do people get a hold of you in touch with? Join on. People can go to my website. WWW dot. Kathleen Hannigan DOT COM. And feel free to email me are also my book. would be great to read during this time because it's very hopeful book and. It's called a love. Seat the template for birthing new world. I've been very involved with burning this new world, so I'm somewhat excited about this. Right now that it's happening. Ya Yeah. So, you reach out very I even set my clients. You know just he need to just check in. Send an email or something and. I. Have No problem. Sending the message of hope to people 'cause I. I, keep it alive in my heart, and I think that's what we have to do. Right absolutely so anything else that you WanNa touch upon or let people know of. That's happening in your world before we close out. Well I have a eventually going. GonNa. Have a wonderful course. Come Out, program called. Divine, him in school. And and it's a mystery school to help. With this. This awakening that we're all having come for the new world and to find your place in it and. Many, many many new things come in so not out yet amid the in the process awesome. Yup Exciting contemplating podcast which I'm cheering on and say. have been an I'm GONNA. Take you up on the offer to pick your brain about that. Because I think it's time for that yeah. I love it. I'll be your fan so yes. Thank you Terry for doing this. It's really wonderful. Yeah, it's well. Thank you for joining me I, so appreciate why love your energy in your beautiful lights, and what the message you send out into the world and Yeah, I just really appreciate you being here with me today to talk about it without the. It's an honour. Thanks all right everyone until next time remember potential gentle with yourself. Take Care bye-bye.
Breaking Money Silence Learning Lab
"Hi, it's Kathleen Byrnes Kingsbury the host of the breaking money silence podcast. I'm here today with exciting news. I have created a breaking money silence learning look up. So this is an area where you can go and learn more about money psychology. I have started this learning lab with courses on negotiating. So the psychology of negotiating how to be effective negotiator how to overcome your fear of negotiation. There are both free offerings. So you can jump on sign on become a member of the community and start learning at no cost right away, or you can decide to invest in yourself and take your skills to a deeper level. I have really enjoyed putting this learning lab together and offering the lessons that I often teach out in the world in live sessions here online so you can access them in your home and your office at any time that is convenient for you Thursday. And if you do invest yourself and purchase the breaking money silence on negotiation course, you will get a 15-minute free consultation with me if you complete it. So I hope you will take me up on that offer. I hope you will check out the breaking money silence learning lab and I really look forward to speaking to you and helping you take your negotiation skills to the next level. So check it out at breaking money silence., and you want to go to the breaking money silence learning lab tab, or you can go directly to them taking money silence. VIP member Vault, I look forward to seeing you there and thanks again for being a loyal breaking money sucks podcast listener.
Millennials and Money Series
"Hey. This is Kathleen Burns. Kingsbury and we are doing a new series called millennials and money so you WanNa make sure that you've subscribe to breaking money silence, and you hear the guests that we'll be talking specifically about millennials and money. What are some of the misconceptions about millennials relationship with money? Are they indeed better at talking about money than the generations before? And what are the different financial challenges that they are facing, so make sure you subscribe to breaking money silence, and you take the time to listen in and learn more. More about millennials and money, and if you are a millennial out there, cleese submit some questions to key K at breaking money silence Dot Com because we definitely will do an audience q a segment on breaking money silence to answer the questions that you have about this topic or to just hear from you about what you like or don't like about how millennials are viewed when it comes to finances I, really am excited about this new series. millennials and money so definitely subscribed to breaking money, silence podcast and check it out.
The Staircase /// Part 1 /// 241
"Welcome to true crime garage wherever you are, whatever you are doing. Thanks for listening. I'm your host. Nick in with me as always is a man that would like to remind us all that you can observe a lot just by watching. He is the captain. I'd like to remind you that planet game of flicky flicky and public as a crime. It's good to be seen, and it's good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for Toma friend. Tonight we are drinking secret stairs by Trillium brewing company garage grade four and a quarter bottle caps out of five secret stairs is Trillium signature style. It's bold balanced and very satisfied is not too sweet or syrupy. There's an earthy nece with bitter cocoa hints which makes secret stairs. Awesome. And this wonderful beer was brought to us by these good. Good peeps right here I up. We have a MandA from Baltimore, Maryland and big out cynical from ralway New Jersey. Next up. We have Mario at the tattoo studio and parts on known 'em are me awesome tattoo of moose mowing grass on my ass. We also have Marianne Lee. She is in beautiful parts known as well and big. We like you zip to Ryan and Belmont New Hampshire. I wanna go out west and fist-bump this guy Jason from California and last, but not least we have Christina and Bothell Washington. Thanks to everybody for filling up the fridge for this week show. If you want to help us out with next week. Beer run Goto true crime, garage dot com, and click on that Doni, but and that's enough. But the base nays. That's right. Everybody gathered around grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. Teams, please get them to heal. This veg an ambulance. Jill. Kathleen Peterson was born February twenty. First nineteen, fifty three in Greensboro, North Carolina. She grew up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania and graduated first in her class at high school also voted girl of the year. So it's quite obvious. She was well liked and respected by her fellow classmates. She moved to Durham North Carolina to attend Duke University. It's been reported. She was the first female student accepted into dukes engineering school. So a very bright young woman. She met her first husband, Fred atwater at Duke. They had a daughter, Caitlin, their marriage did not. Last later she met Michael Peterson, Michael graduated from Duke as well. After extensive schooling and education Peterson, took a job with the US department of defense to research military involvement in Vietnam. Tom, he also had a first marriage to a lady named Patricia SU. She elementary school on the Rhein main air force base in west Germany. They had two children, Clayton and Todd in nineteen sixty eight Peterson enlisted in the marines and served in Vietnam in nineteen seventy-one. He received an honorable discharge with the rank of captain after a car accident, left him with a permanent disability, Michael Patricia lived in Germany for some time there, they befriended Elizabeth and George Ratliff and their two children, Margaret and Martha how unfortunately George would pass away and after his death, the Peterson's and the Ratliff families became very close when Elizabeth Ratliff died in nineteen eighty-five. Michael became the guardian of her two children after Michael and Patricia divorce in nineteen eighty seven, Clayton and Todd, the two. Sons went to live with their mother, Patricia and Margaret and Martha stayed with Michael, who then moved to Durham North Carolina, Clayton and Todd would later also joined their father. Okay. So both are divorced then when later Michael and Kathleen meet and then they are together in nineteen ninety two. The couple bought a fourteen room dream home on cedar street and five years later, Kathleen Michael married in nineteen ninety seven now are murder case. And the day in question takes place in two thousand one. By this time, Kathleen is in has been a successful business executive for Norton making about one hundred fifty thousand dollars a year Peterson. Michael Peterson wrote three novels based around his experiences during the Vietnamese conflict. The immortal dragon, eight time of war and a bitter piece are the three titles of his books. He also co authored several other. Books, and he worked as a newspaper columnist for the Durham herald sun where his columns became known for their criticism of police and Durham county district attorney, James harden junior, mainly because of what Peterson suggested was a lack of ability for the local law and order to solve cases and get convictions or start with the time line of the murder. So we'll start a day before the actual event. So on Friday, December seven, two thousand and one Kathleen takes the day off from work that afternoon. The Peterson's, Michael and Kathleen go Christmas shopping Friday evening. The Peterson's attend event for the North Carolina independent party. Michael was involved in politics at different points in his life. So it makes sense that they would be attending this event. Now on Saturday, December eighth at approximately three thirty PM hundreds of files are deleted. From Michael Peterson's PC with a disc purging program called quick clean at four forty one pm. Michael arrives at the YMCA Jim at approximately six PM. The married couple talks about renting a movie for the night as six fifty nine pm. Michael rents America's America's sweethearts at blockbuster video at nine forty, five pm. Christine Tomassetti arrives at the Peterson's home to take Todd their son to a party. She sees Kathleen and Michael sharing a bottle of wine at this time around ten twenty pm, Christine, Todd leave for this party at ten forty pm. The password atwater logs into the Peterson's PC. Michael Peterson says that they finished the movie probably around eleven pm, and then they went to the kitchen and talked for. While Michael later says that the to talk at night for two to three hours sometimes and he knows that they drank two bottles of wine that night. He does not give a more exact amount of time that they are in the kitchen drinking and talking pay attention because the following times are extremely important to our case at eleven eight PM Norton networks, co worker, Helen Pressler later testified that she talked to Kathleen Peterson at this time and that Kathleen did not sound intoxicated and did not seem abnormal in any way. She did not sense that Kathleen and Michael Peterson were fighting at this time, and he heard Kathleen ask her husband for his Email address. MS persinger said, Kathleen needed a document for a teleconference scheduled for ten AM the next day and was expecting an Email with that dock with that document attached. The Email was in fact sent to Michael Peterson's Email address at ten fifty, three pm personally Email arrives the blank emails. PowerPoint attachment was never opened. The attachment was titled readiness on Sunday, December ninth, two thousand one. Maybe sometime after midnight, the Peterson's drank and talked outside near the pool. Please note it is about fifty degrees out at night that night at this time according to Michael, after talking in the kitchen, the two went to the pool and quote, we were talking here and to Cates near the pool for a fair amount of time. Again, captain not giving us a great exact understanding of how long he believes they were out there and at what time did they go to the pool, but indicating that they were outside talking. Another statement, he actually says that they're out on the porch for awhile, and then they go out to the poor area, but. Michael was a pipe smoker so he would smoke his pipe and talk outside. So yes, it's kinda chilly outside, but he's smoking. I think Kathleen might have been a smoker maybe on some level, you know, you know, we have those people that smoke when they drink right. And I say that because later there was some nicotine found in her body so she could have joined him for smoke or just took a puff or two when they're outside having their conversation. But there's also a lot of people that when they drink, it's like when they start drinking, they don't need one. But once they get past certain point, they need many cigarettes. So right away. I don't see. I don't have any red flags, no major red flags going off regarding Michael Peterson statements about that night. I mean, other than the computer being cleaned. Right, right. That seems odd. But on top. Of that. I mean, as far as what's going down at this point in the evening, eleven o'clock, twelve o'clock, maybe a little bit later. Having watched the docu series, the staircase they didn't directly show this, but often win. Michael Peterson is kind of doing the one on one thing with the camera. I almost always see like little red stains on the side of his lips. Like this comes off to me is guy that very much likes drinking his wine, and so him saying that him and his wife were hanging out on a Saturday night. Having a couple bottles of wine does not strike me as weird it actually, I think this is probably exactly what was going down at that time. And we also have the I witness that came into pick up. The son says, hey, I saw the two hanging out and they were drinking together. Now according to Michael, this is where I start to wonder about things because according to Michael, at approximately two thirty AM he. He leaves the poor area. He goes inside and he finds his wife the bottom of the stairs. Good back. What time did she leave the poor area? Well, that's what's a little bit unclear to me because he states that we were out here for a fair amount of time talking. We were talking together and he estimates that she could have left as long as forty, five minutes to an hour before he left the poor area or it could have been as little as thirty minutes from when he left the poor area. But during that time sometime during that time, Kathleen leaves the poor area and heads inside for bed. Michael stays outside to drink and has a smoke. Like you said, then Kathleen, at some point suffers multiple deep, complex lacerations innovations to the scalp, multiple small abrasions and contusions to the face and a fracture with associated hammered of the thyroid cartilage in the neck. So quite a bit of injuries during this time right now, depending on which report you read, this is not a major deal because we're talking about a difference of sixty seconds or so. Some reports say to forty AM some say to forty one AM Michael Peterson calls nine one one, and that's the nine one one call that you heard at the start of the show. Now the operator picks up and says durum nine one one. Where is your emergency to which Michael replies, eighteen ten cedar street. Please operator, what's wrong Peterson? My wife had an accident. She still breathing operator. What kind of accident? Michael Peterson, she fell down the stairs. She's still breathing. Please come nine. One one is she conscious Peterson, what nine one one is she conscious Peterson? No, she's not conscious please. Nine one. How many stairs did she fall down? Michael Peterson. What? What? Nine one one. How many stairs Peterson, he's failing to give an answer there regarding the stairs I get. This doesn't seem like a question. He might have been expecting whether he's guilty or innocent the nine one one operator tells him to calm down, calm down, sir. Calm down Peterson, no damned, sixteen twenty. I don't know. Please get somebody here right away. Please. Nine one. Okay. Somebody's dispatching the ambulance. While I'm asking you questions Peterson, it's oh, it's forced hills. Okay, please. Please nine one one. Okay, sir. Someone is dispatching the ambulance. Is she awake now Peterson. Nine one. Hello? Hello Peterson. Now that's the end of that call asked if she's awake. Now Peterson does not give an answer and for whatever reason we don't know. But the call is ended to forty six AM Michael Peterson calls nine one one second time. Nine one one Derm nine one one. What is your emergency Peterson? Where are they? It's eighteen ten seater. She's not breathing, please. Please. Would you hurry up nine one, sir, Peterson. Can you hear me nine one sir, Peterson, yes. Nine one one sir. Calmed down there on their way. Can you tell me for sure. She's not breathing sir. Hello? Hello to forty. Eight AM paramedics arrive. And Kathleen Peterson is found dead in a hallway. Three AM police detectives begin to arrive and search eighteen ten cedar street at three, twenty four AM. Investigators secure the scene now between four fifteen and five AM some point Peterson logs onto his office computer, and he's overheard mumbling something about Email at five AM. Michael Peterson calls his attorney. Let's go into some more detailed accounts of what place during this time shall we. So we have James rose and Ron page paramedics with the Durham county emergency medical services, they arrive at the Peterson's residence at the same time, Michael son, Todd Peterson arrived. The Peterson's house is a large estate home with an open foyer entrance. The paramedics found the front door open and notice blood on it. Straight ahead through the front door is the large main staircase leading to the second floor immediately to the left after entering is a front hallway leading down to the kitchen. Off of this hallway near the kitchen is an enclosed, narrow stairwell also leading to the second floor. Yeah, there's a turn in and the staircase as well. Yeah. And upon entering the house, the paramedics observed, Kathleen, lying at the bottom of this stairwell, her legs were out into the hallway and our head was just inside the encased open door frame where the first few steps are located. Now, the stairwell runs parallel to the hallway, but has a few angled steps as you had just mentioned at the bottom designed to open up the staircase perpendicular into that hallway. Michael was seen standing over Kathleen in a semi knees, bent position with blood on his hands, arms legs and feet. He wore shorts and a t-shirt. This t shirt is partially soaked blood-soaked with splatter spots when paramedics arrived at Kathleen body. Todd, the sun tried to pull his father away stating dad, she's dead. The paramedics are here. Paramedics rose and page quickly determine that Kathleen had no pulse, and she was not breathing. Michael stated that he had gone outside to turn off. The lights came back in and then found her at the bottom of the steps. Paramedic rose testified later that there was any normal amount of blood. He said, dried blood was on the steps and also on the wall. And it also looked like it had been wiped away or wiped on. It had been smeared and stead of just blood droplets on the wall. He testified that based on his experience, there was an unusual amount of blood for fall and that the most severe injury he had seen from fall was a broken neck. The blood under Kathleen's head had already clotted and started to harden. So detective Holland was asked, give his. Opinion on this scene? Yeah, he's from the homicide unit and they wanted to bring him in because they were little confused about what they are seeing, right? There's we have a call that a person fell down the stairs that there's been an accident yet. They're seeing a lot of blood and they're seeing blood in different places throughout the house which is calling it. They're calling the scene suspicious, right? So Holland says that he received a page approximately around three o'clock in the morning and the he was going to arrive at this death investigation. He said that the call he received came in as someone had fallen down the steps. But upon arrival detective Holland says, this does not look like an accident forming and immediate opinion. Detective Holland identified himself to Mr. Peterson and even shook his hand and explain to him that he was sorry for his loss, but that it appeared that the scene look suspicious and it needed to be processed. At trial detective Holland was asked was Michael helpful at that point? Did he answer your initial questions? Detective Holland said, no, no, he pretty much was very quiet. Kept to himself didn't say a whole lot. Now, police videotaped the scene as the officers found it, Michael Peterson's tennis shoes and socks by the foot of the body, white towels soaked red with blood from cathlene injury to the back of her head blood smears up the oak staircase and on the walls above detective hall and called for a crime scene analyst and expert and blood splatter who in turn told the detective. He felt strongly that this was a homicide for the next twenty hours officers meticulously photographed and documented what they now regarded as a crime scene. There was a small amount of blood outside on the walkway blood. Stains on the front door, the blood on the kitchen sink, a wine bottle and glasses on the counter every inch of the three acre property was combed. Luminol testing revealed bloody footprints leading from Kathleen Peterson's body into the laundry room, then going to the kitchen refrigerator and sink. Then moving to a wine glass cabinet which also had blood on it. The footprints mysteriously stopped at the cabinet. They just stopped. Yeah. Later at trial, the defense would challenge the cops on what they didn't do at the Petersen house. The police didn't tape off the area of the stairwell until three thirty four AM almost an hour after the call came in and by then it was too late. Peterson's lawyers criticized what they called sloppy police procedures. The blood in that area had been altered. The scene at the house had been contaminated example, Mike. Michael goes up to Kathleen with the police watching hugs her Todd takes him. The sun puts him on the couch where there's blood transfer, and then Todd says, can I get some soda in a glass and the police say sure. And he goes there. He goes Todd, walking around the kitchen with blood on his hands. So at trial, police would point out that they found blood in suspicious locations mainly in different areas of the kitchen and that these were red flags. However, as I stated, you can see, you can kind of see why there may have been blood in strange locations throughout the kitchen. And in my opinion, the blood in the kitchen area, for example, was a complete irrelevancy. Once you stab wish that there was contamination there in the kitchen with the police standing right by while they also did test to make sure that there there wasn't any cleaning products used in the. Into clean up any evidence. And there was none found later that day Dr Deborah ranch a path. Allah just with the office of the North Carolina medical examiner performed. An autopsy on Kathleen body. Toxicology results showed that Kathleen blood alcohol content was point zero, seven percent. The autopsy report concluded that Kathleen sustained a matrix of severe injuries, including a fracture of the thyroid neck cartilage and seven lacerations caused by a homicidal assault to the top. And back of her head consistent with blows from blunt object. The result of repeated blows with a light yet rigid weapon and had died from blood loss, ninety minutes to two hours after sustaining the injuries. They also found that she took a valium that night later. Michael Peterson's defense disputed this theory, according to their analysis, Kathleen skull had not been fractured by the blows nor. Was she brain damage, which was inconsistent with injuries, sustained in a beating death, forensic expert doctor Henry Lee hired by the defense testified that the blood splatter evidence was consistent with an accidental fall down the stairs. Police investigators concluded that the injuries were inconsistent with such an accident will get right back to the staircase right after this quick beer break. Introducing audible originals a new member benefit. Audible originals are exclusive audio titles created by celebrated storytellers from worlds as diverse as theater, journalism literature, and more every month. Audible members get one credit for any audio book plus to audible originals from changing selection that you can't get anywhere else. You also get access to audio, fitness and health workouts created exclusively. For audible, audible has the largest selection of audio books on the planet which lets you fill your fall with more stories like mine, hunter by John Douglas or paddle, your own canoe, but Nick Offerman. How about the man from the train by Bill James or born standing up by Steve Martin and a book that I just finished alligator candy by David? Kushner, plus your books are yours to keep with audible. 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Let's get into some reasons why the prosecution and law enforcement would believe that Michael Peterson had motive to kill his wife. Okay. So we have Durham county district attorney, James harden, junior and the prosecution attacked Peterson's credibility focusing on his alleged misreporting of his military service and what they described as Michael's secret life, and we will get into that in a bit. But first Michael's credibility during a campaign for mayor, Mike, Michael Peterson claimed he was awarded a silver star, a bronze star with valor and two purple hearts. He had all of these metals but said he did not have the documentation for them. He claimed he received one purple heart after being hit by shrapnel when another. Other soldier stepped on a landmine and the other when he was shot Peterson later admitted, his war injury was not the result of the shrapnel wound in Vietnam, but was the result of veer vehicle accident in Japan where he was stationed after the war as a military policeman. Okay. So he was military. He policeman he's hit by a car or he's in a car accident, and then he claims that you got a pro heart for that, but not for that, but for something else. Well, when he's running for mayor, he claims that he sustained big time big time wounds during the course of war. He was inflicted with shrapnel, and then he was also shot which is much bigger difference than being in a car accident. So we have a liar on our hands will not only then these are big lies. I mean, this is also guy that wrote three books about the Vietnam war, right? Right. Fictitious books, believe. But they centered around the Vietnam war. Will some articles refer to him as a war hero? I don't know if I would go are he's a wars Eero. Yeah, I mean, I mean, technically, I guess in my mind, anybody that serves overseas serves this great country is some form of hero. The problem I have here is he's elevating himself to a whole different level, and he was obviously not deserving of any of that credit that he was willing to take. I mean, we have, we have men and women that come home to their families in caskets, right? That received purple hearts that received some of the awards that he is claiming that he earned and he didn't. And like you said, a liar in these are big lies. Another motive for Kathleen murder would be a one point, five million dollar life insurance policy, the prosecution witness, Raymond. Young said that the Petersons were spending about one hundred thousand dollars a year more than they made during each during each of the three years before Kathleen Peterson's death. Young also testified that when Kathleen Peterson died, the Petersons were carrying more than one hundred forty two thousand dollars in credit card in credit line debt spread across twenty active accounts. Now, the defense objected to this unsuccessfully that Young's credit card information essentially a report of a report amounted to hearsay testimony. The defense also complained that young did not distinguish between different kinds of expenses such as reoccurring bills and discretionary purchases. During his analysis of Peterson's cashflow. The defense pointed out that young had counted checks written to buy stocks as expenses, but did. Didn't count the sale of those stocks as quote, normal income. The defense also questioned young about why he did not count for the thousands of dollars that flowed through Kathleen Peterson's accounts when Norton networks, her employer reimbursed her for business expenses using Young's own figures of the couple's assets, mortgage, liabilities, and credit card debt. The defense showed that the Peterson's had combine net worth of more than one point, four million dollars defense lawyer. Thomas mayor asked as they sat there that December weekend, even with your analysis. This couple was worth more than one point, four million dollars. Isn't that correct? That's right. Young replied. So again, the prosecution is trying to prove that they had some money issues and that would be the motive because then he could collect insurance check that kind of backfired on the prosecution. So their next theory for motive is going to be kind. Of dark secret. Yeah, this this theory would be the Kathleen murder was motivated by the discovery of Michael's secret life by Kathleen on the night of the murder. So the prosecutor believed that Kathleen stumbled upon something explosive on the Peterson's home computer downloaded images of naked men. There was to approximately two thousand of them. There were also liaisons outside of the marriage, a series of Email exchanges between Michael Peterson and local male prostitute. He had found through the internet that Kathleen did know about the other man introduced in trial was Brad from Raleigh. So he's two thousand downloaded naked pictures of dudes, correct pornography on his computer. That's a lot of twig berries. Well, this guy, Brad from Raleigh was a twenty year old Twenty-six-year-old. Excuse me, former soldier. After, and I think he went by the moniker top soldier. His website pick was a beefcake pose complete with dog tags according to the prosecutor by late summer, two thousand one, four months before Kathleen's death. Michael Peterson agreed to get with Brad for sex at Peterson's home, Brad on the stand said, we were to hook up, I believe on September. Fifth, two thousand one. The prosecutor asked and what was the price you quoted him. Brad said, I believed it was one hundred and fifty dollars per hour. But Brad told the court when the appointed day came around, he was tired and cancelled the prosecutor. So you just simply didn't contact him back at all. Brad stated. I don't think I contacted him that night. I have found out that I contacted him about twenty five days later to apologize for not showing up. The prosecutor asked after you contacted him to. Policies for not showing up. Did you have further communication with him, Brad? No, ma'am. Brad testified that he impede or Sohn had never met until they were in court together. For the prosecutor, the brand up episode was to show that the marriage was anything, but rock solid and the trail of Email messages that became the quote trigger that the state talked about. I wanna throw out something strange. The notice during the documentary, one Brad is very charming on the stand telling jokes, these smart. Yeah. And in a good looking guy. And at some point, Michael Peterson's daughters are listening to testimony and one of the daughters kind of glowing, and the way a girl would be listening to attractive guy talk and be charming. You know, she's gonna of in smitten by him, them exe- sense. Then. Then then he says something to basically remind the courtroom that he's a gay man and her face like shrivels up. Well, I hate to say this, but it's Durham North Carolina. This is tough for some people in the audience too. Identify with, let's say, let's continue on with with some of the things that Brad said. What do I mean by that? I mean exactly what I said. It's durum North Carolina. This testimony, the thought of bisexual, married man, going outside of his marriage is going to be tough for people in that audience to identify with. Now, the defense was asked was that in unusual occurrence for you to have or plan to have sexual relations with with married men? Right? Brad stated to the contrary, married men are in the majority of most of the clients that I saw when I was an escort the defense with regards to the kinds of men that you tended to have escort relationships with. Can you give us some indication as to their professions, for example, Brandt answered. Sure. Usually they are professionals because my fees are quite high. I saw doctors, attorneys and one judge. The judge says, not this judge right, and it was noted. It was noted in the court transcripts. The defense then asked, did a number of the men, the married men that you had sexual relations with have wives that knew they were by sexual Brad stated. I believe most of them did from my experience. Yeah. The defense asked in your experience, was it unusual for a wife Mary to a by sexual man to know that he was by sexual Brad's answer was not at all the defense asked, was it unusual for a bisexual, man using your services to be in a happy marriage? Brad answered, not at all. Most of the men who would see me would have their time with me and then go back to their happy healthy laws. It's not unusual to be loved by any wound, the defense ash. Was there any kind of person. Relationship involved between you and Michael Peterson, Brad stated? No, sir. I believe in one of the emails, it was very explicit that there would be no emotions involved, no personal relationships involved and it would be strictly physical? Yeah. I mean, I think he also stated he loved his wife and they had a really good marriage. You're you're exactly right. The defense asked, did Michael Peterson ever do or say anything either on the phone or by Email to indicate that he was not in love with Kathleen Peterson, Brad answered to the contrary in his emails. Unlike most of my clients, he indicated that he had a great relationship. Most clients don't want to say anything about their relationship. He said he had a warm relationship with his wife and nothing would ever destroy that. The defense showed the jury Peterson's own words and an Email to Brad, which stated, quote, I am married very happily, married with a dynamite wife. Yeah, the prosecution alleged Kathleen would have been infuriated by learning that her husband was having an extramarital relationship, not with another woman, but a man, their statement that once she learned this information that an argument ensued and then a homicide occurred. The defense argued that Kathleen accepted Michael's bisexuality and that the marriage was very happy. A position supported by Michael, Kathleen children, and other friends and associates. Now we do know that Caitlyn. So Caitlyn is technically Kathleen's daughter from her first marriage. Yeah, Caitlyn stopped supporting Michael Peterson win. This information was too close disclosed. So let's jump back to the children showy. We have children of Michael Peterson from his first marriage. That's Clayton and Todd, his two sons and they support him correct. And then we. Have children of George and Elizabeth Ratliff who are both deceased but were raised by Michael Peterson, this is Margaret and Martha. Yeah, they both support him as well. Correct. Then we have the daughter of Kathleen Peterson, Caitlin atwater. She initially proclaimed Michael's innocence and publicly supported him. But after learning of Peterson's bisexuality and after reading her mother's autopsy report rush. She broke off from the rest of the family. This motive is kind of hard to decide of. It could even work as a motive. 'cause you don't know if his wife knew about his bisexual. Yeah, I agree captain for me kind of like, you know, I fancy myself pretty open minded dude, and for me, it really just kind of put me at the top of the fence where I could see one side and see the other side and mainly practically agree with both sides. You know, I think what they did. Here is I think the prosecution made a strong case that this could be a motive. I think the defense did a good job of stating, maybe this is no motive at all right? Because if she knew and she and that was the arrangement that their marriage tad where and even Brad, the escort said that he felt that most of his clients were mainly heterosexual with some homosexual tendencies. And so it was just kind of maybe a percentage while they're eighty percent straight twenty percent gay or whatever it is. And and so if that's the arrangement that their marriage had than, who are we to say how they should live their life or or how they should conduct their marriage right that that's on them. But the issue here then becomes as far as the children go. Did you have any knowledge of this? You? Did you even have thought process that. Your father was doing this, so that'd be so I can see why this children are supportive. I can see why they would not be in. 'cause I also think it if you didn't know and now they're saying that your your mom new, but you had no proof while again, we have him lying about his war record. Now he was not, you know, not lying, but not telling the full truces children about sexuality. So I don't question that so much because I don't know that I don't know that if I had children, if I would share, you know the things that I meant to with them. I don't think there's a weird conversation. Have this podcast doors. I. That that they might feel like it was another way of being lied to as one I'm saying? No, I agree with that. But what I'm stating is the I don't find the children not knowing to be weird. Right? You know, I, I don't, of course if they knew that, obviously I'd be convinced that there was no problem with this thing, but if they didn't know, that doesn't to me suggests that there is a problem. Actually. Furthermore, you know, somebody was talking to to said, hey, so really the sole question regarding the state's case is did Kathleen, no, or did she not know? And I said, well, I see what you're saying there, but however it's not necessarily did she know or did she not know it's what she okay with it. If she did know Ryan, they're trying to present a mode of the problem with this is especially in a marriage. There could be thousands of different motives that we would never know because there could be hundreds of conversations that they. Had and private that nobody knew about sir mean. So it's like they're just trying to stab a motive. And like you said, they do a good job. Prosecution does a presenting it. The fence does a great job of deflecting and so yet kind of put you on the the center of the post. Yeah, and I think what they did was they both present their side and then it's left up to the members of the jury to figure out what side they fall to and what they believe actually occurred. One thing though that I do question here is his defense was very good. I thought it was a good team, smart group of people. They questioned a lot of things. They defended him very well. The thing that that did not happen and I know it doesn't exist because I know that they were smart enough that they would have presented. This at trial was they couldn't prove that Kathleen Peterson knew that Michael was bisexual, right? They. Couldn't prove the Kathleen was okay with it. So you know that a conversation took place between the head defense attorney and Michael Peterson that there's a sit down closed room where he says to Michael Michael, is there anything anywhere any proof that you can show me the Kathleen new and that she was okay with it? Or was there any proof that you can show me that she had least knew that gets us over one speed bump? Right. And so that didn't exist. And when you have Michael Peterson, who talks about this, he's a little vague too. Don't you when you agree, he says, yes, she knew. Did you guys talk about? No. Wasn't really something we spoke about, but I didn't. But this is this is a tricky thing because these conversations behind closed doors and could it be a situation where she's like, okay, I understand that. I mean, they should have been, you know, the develop into a relationship and he says to her, I have the side of me. That I like to explore, and she might have said, that's fine with me. Don't wanna hear about it. Right? You know, as long as you're not being with other women, right? That could have been the who knows. I mean, and that's. I don't know. It's it's it's very tricky. And again, though I stick by what I said, where it's less important than Kathleen new. It's more important that she was either okay with it or not away with Willis, start with idea of should this even bitten been allowed in the courtroom. And I believe the judge said later that he almost wishes that he would have just said, no, we can't talk about this. And the reason why was because he was frayed you know, it's in the south, would it be present prejudicial basically? Right. Basically, if you bring up that this guy's is bisexual there just be one or two people on the jury. That would just. Find him guilty because he's by sexual, right? And I think for me, if I were the judge or the prosecutor Myo argument that it would would be in the trial, and I understand don't send a weird Email that I've claiming that the judge and prosecutor worked together. I understand the way the system works. But what I mean by this is it's a part of the state's case, right? The state's case is that Kathleen Peterson that night stumbled upon information she found on his computer, this suggested that this kind of activity was going on. Therefore she confronted him about that. That night, they got into an argument and he beat her to death, right? And the state's case yet. But that's because the other motive wasn't going to stick so well. So when they found this, I think it was more about less make this part of our motive. So we can bring up the fact that he has almost stub. Oh life. And I because I do think that shows something if she didn't know about the double life nece kids to know about the double life and it seemed like newbie. Nobody knew about the double life than it's like, then what is he capable of you don't know because you don't really know the real person. I agree with that. But what I mean by goes with the state's cases, if you follow the timeline of events of known events that night now what Michael Peterson says, but what others state right is that Kathleen Peterson was using his computer that night to receive information from her work. We know that from her co worker who says, I overheard Kathleen asking him for his Email address and we have the password being accessing the computer. And so the state's case would be this was a computer that she didn't often use regularly use, maybe used it for the first time who knows and discovers this information there that night and win. Confronting Michael about it turns into an argument that leads to him killing her. Yeah. I think the other thing too about this is we have some kind of record that he's trying to use software to clean the computer. So what did the prosecution fine. What to the investigation fine on his computer afterwards. And was that supposed to been cleaned off of its computer and wasn't? Well, there was, I mean, there was at least all of those point of graphic pictures of men, right? Where they were, they supposed to be wiped away. I don't. I don't know what his intent. I don't know who we can't say for certain who, who applied that computer scrubbing software to the shooter. We can't say for certain, all we can say is that it was used. And so if we can't say, who is using it, it's tough to gauge the intentions of the user. I think the thing here too, is that. Sometimes when people hear the wife finds out that he's having affairs with men and they start thinking will, why would he kill her? Because of that it's like folk, no, because that's going to lead to divorce that could lead to separation that could lead to. I mean, he's not making a lot of money or even he just lost it in the heat of the moment, right? And the thing that I for embarrassment, maybe he didn't want people to know. The thing that's interesting here though I differ from you where I think that the the, this secret life that the state claims he was hiding from his wife. I think that if we're going to look at the state's case as a cake, I look at that to be the cake and that the money motive would have just been icing on the cake. It would have been another another example. Another reason why. But what's interesting is I didn't see anybody point this out during the Porsche. Of the trial that I was able to view was the defense. I think I would have attacked at as the defense because on one end you're saying, wait, one motive is money. Well, then that would be premeditated. That would be me sitting here, realizing we have money problems. How can I fix it? All? I'm going to kill my wife, right? The other is she finds my gay pornography that I'm a big huge fan of that. I'm I'm, I'm enjoying that while she's at work. I guess I'm going to edit that out of the show and and then she, she confronts me, we get into some kind of argument and then I kill my wife. Well, that's two different things that's ones in in the heat of the moment. I lost it and I killed my wife. The other is premeditated, right? So can one the the state never Brill builds a bridge to connect the. I'm sitting at home planning on how I'm going to kill her to. I lost it a ruptured one night and killed her. Ones with a Boehner ones without there you go. Well, that is a good segue into the possible murder weapon. The prosecution said that the murder was most likely committed with a custom made fireplace poker called a blow poke. It had been a gift to the Peterson's from Kathleen's sister, but was missing quote, unquote missing from the house at the time of the murder investigation. And Kathleen sister actually gave a bunch of people in their family. These blow pokers. Yeah, I think she gave it to her her parents into some other people in the family, her sister, Candice, Kathleen Peters, sister, Candace when asked about the blow pokes that, yes, it was always in the kitchen stating that she had used it and had observed Kathleen using it, and it was always located in the kitchen while it's a big house. So we have a kitchen that's connected to little room and there's a little fireplace. By that. So anytime you see like home video footage, you'll see a little kitchen pan and you'll see a fireplace in normally it was sitting there and you actually see at one point in the documentary, one of the daughters going back through old like Christmas footage to try to find out when the poker disappeared. Well, you had the prosecution, which would tell the jury that you've got to realize he meaning Michael Peterson had several hours that he could clean up and in the prosecution's opinion, they think that that is wind. The blow Polk was removed from the property. And the problem with that as the defense would later point out, the defense claim that the blow Polk was later found inside the home covered with cobwebs and dead insects, implying that police. Everyone else had just simply overlooked at it was not hidden said the defense because it was never used. It was not the murder weapon. In the first place, forensic tests revealed that the blow poke had been untouched and Unruh moved. I'm sorry. Unmoved for far too long to have been used in the murder. Yeah. And people ask, well, how did they not find this? Well, they had garage, like in the basement. Part of the basement had a garage door and he had some car he is working on and it was kind of hidden in the corner, like not hidden on person purpose, but probably what happened was who's messing with the fire. One day was working on his car, went downstairs working on his car and put the poker beside it. And then because there's other tools and other pipes and stuff around cops us probably just didn't see it. They probably also didn't look that. I also think that it least that night in the following day, they didn't realize that that would be a potential murder weapon. Right? You know. So even if you salt that night or the next day, you don't care because it's not of significance at that time. I actually think that what. Probably happened is it was an item that went unused up near the fireplace itself. And at some point, you know, that's where things in the basement and the garage. That's how they get their. Sometimes they're things that are just not used and you go, oh, put it out in the garage. I'll put it out in the basement and like you said, things start to pile up and collect around it, and then it may appear years later to have been hidden. But rather it's just simply placed there while the pointed poker in was missing and the round in that the poker would go into was banned. And so I wonder if he's working on this old card has old Jack and he's not able to Jack it up with crowbar if he went and grabbed this poker to use it Jack up the car, that's an interesting thought they, they don't really present any of that though at at try this, the other home with Baio Pearson, look, we all like to drink good time. The problem is that makes your memory. Do you the blur. That's interesting. You say that I was just going to ask you, do you find him to be a forgetful person or is he conveniently forgetful? No, I think he's he was getting older and I think he didn't remember about to stuff like he's when they find the poker. He's even like, I don't know. I don't know why would be there. Right. How got there, and it's like maybe it was from you may from one of your kids. That's the other. Here's the other issue here. We don't have little kids. We have adult adults, so they're doing a lot of stuff in the, you know, when you're a kid, if there was something there was a hammer misplaced in the garage and you're five years old, it's from your father was misplacing. The hammer chances are you weren't messing with the hammer. But when you're twenty years old and you're messing with cars and who knows what happened? One of them might use it, then they forget. I just think he's also he's getting up there in age and he. He has some effects from that. So I think a couple things here regarding his memory. I, I'm gonna go back to the wine drinking. I actually think Michael Peterson, probably liked to indulge in quite a bit of wine drinking. I think him saying that they had two bottles of wine that night might have been conservative. I think he might have had two bottles of wine that night and she helped drink some other bottles of wine William. Isn't that what you do? I mean, if you're hanging out with your wife or your hanging out with some friends like you don't count drinks, you just drink and talk and have a good time. Yeah. I mean, when your kid you count drinks when you're twenty you're going up to ten beers. Are I mean when you're a dull, you actually go less. I've only had six, you know, you had ten. You know what I mean? That's well, I think the a combination of things. One this guy has seen wartime, so there could be some PTSD from that. The of that. The very difficult wartime, I think, as well is there's probably been a history of nights consecutive nights of drinking wine or maybe even a lot of wine or alcohol. And once he puts on those fake medals got there probably way down a little bit. And he probably trips and falls a lot because of he's getting older. So I think a combination of those three things lens to him being forgetful, and maybe not so much conveniently forgetful, right? The other vibe to, and I have no proof of this. This is just a gut feeling that I got when watching the his children and the way that they spoke about their household and the family. And one thing I do wanna point out here is it seemed to be a very close family even though it was a bit of a patchwork quilt, it was a close family to the extent that I hear his children. Michael's children referring to Kathleen as mom. Over and over again. And I also hear her daughter referred to Michael as dad, and so the the two adopted kids, they call their mom, the real mom, their birth mom, they call Kathleen, their mom, mom? Yeah, they took away the whole step mom or whatever. Right? And I think and who knows there was a conversation about it, but you know that that's also them showing respect to her. She is made them part of her life. She treated them xactly like daughters. We're going to treat you just like a mother. I think that and also you got, he's very well rounded, smart intelligent kids. They seem well adjusted. Oh yeah. Yeah. And they seem well adjusted and they have all this craziness going on with their lives. You know what I mean? Like you would expect them to be like, okay, maybe maybe our mom died accidentally may be our father murdered her. We're not for sure you'd think that the hinges hinges would come off and they're not. And that's a sign of. How you were raised and how you raise is not always the lessons that you were taught. It's the actions that you were shown, right? So meaning. And then again, every friend, every family member says they had a loving marriage that that means something. All right, captain we have so much stuff to get to do. We have enough time you think to get into some of the blood experts that testified during the trial? Yes. Okay. So the state's blood splatter expert told the jury that he was certain. Kathleen Peterson was beaten to death because the droplet patterns of blood and spray on the steps and walls of the stairwell were just what he expected to see if you imagine a weapon rising striking rising casting off blood up the wall with each new blow, right and blood found on the inside lower leg of Michael Peterson shorts confirms his theory. He said he saw evidence of an attempt to clean up some of the blood on the stairwell. Of course, his his testimony was much longer and lengthier than this. That's the team, Nick simplified version. Yeah. Was also he's stating that she's hit with a blunt object. That's what's creating these marks on Kathleen head, but there is no cast off. Like if she was hit in the head, there'd be a cast off. Meaning blood is coming from an object. There'd be a cast off normally that would hit the ceiling okay, from her hype. So he he saying that there was cast off on the wall with each new blow in that he expected to see yen during his testimony. He's going to show you a bunch of experiments. He did to try to get these to recreate these patterns. And so it's basically that that she gets hit one time, Kathleen then falls, and then all the rest of the hits would happen. Why she's on the ground, making the spot from the inside of his shorts. Makes sense. Right? Because he would be on top of her or standing over her, and that would be the reason there'd be no cast off on ceiling. So it's almost like he has this picture. Now he has to figure out how we got there. Right, right. That makes sense. Well, in a way though the defense is going to have to do the same thing or try to do the same thing when they put on a celebrity expert witness doctor, Henry Lee, I'm sure most of our listeners are familiar with Henry Lee. He's been in several of the more well-known cases including he was involved in the OJ Simpson case. Now, Lee explain that the blood splatter he explained it in a theatrical manner. He swigged a small amount of catch up, took a deep breath and then spit it out replicating. He said, the victim of the fall, coughing up blood staggering about the stairwell. Yeah, the result, he says, blood splatter up the wall of the staircase and on the inside leg of Peterson shorts as he tended to her Dr. Actor Lee told the jury that the copious blood splatter on the back staircase convinced him, Kathleen Peterson, had died of fall, not a beating. So if you're trying to forgive me, if you're trying to picture this at home, what he's talking about is he saying she fell and Ashi is laying there. She's coughing up blood. She's breathing blood, and that is what is projecting that blood onto the wall behind her Ryan. They also believe at some point she tried to get up which would explain the blood that's on the bottom of her feet, but also explained like if she did try to get up and she slipped that her body would have moved. So she's more outside of the door, her head still inside the doorway again, once she's then continues to cough up blood at that position would account for some of the rest of the blood splatter yet to help the jurors imagine how a woman would fall and end up like this that they're indicate. Getting, you know, keep in mind. Kathleen was in flip flops. She was Medicated with valium. She might be tipsy with having drinking wine that night on not might be tipsy. I mean, one of the things that people really should look up is the facts. Valium the of valium are pretty much the same effect as far as alcohol is concerned. But once she mixed both of them times it by ten, let's say, right. So one of the major affects is dizziness a loss of balance. And so you're talking about a very odd staircase. I l most argued that that staircase ING should been made where you just go into a little square room turn to the right, and then you go up the steps. So there would be no initial stares directly in front of you. So the stairs. Basically if you walked into this into this stairwell, it's almost like a mini spiral staircase. It looks like air case like a closet that you're walking. Into almost right. And you take a couple of steps and then you turn to your right, and you go up the rest of the stairs and the stairs to you're right. There's quite a bit more stairs there than what would be at the bottom straight ahead of you now, like the captain pointed out, you're right. It would have been a safer situation to just have that be a flat landing there as if you are walking into a closet, turn to your right and then go directly up the stairs without turning. So the other thing too is this would be, would you call this like you know how they have some older homes. They have like servant quarters, and and you know, that's probably what is probably what this is a second staircase for people to work behind the scenes of a big house like that. It's been referred to as a mansion. I, I think you could call it that. I think that's somewhat of anger description. It's a big house. But here here's what's weird though too, because you have this weird landing on the bottom and you have these steps. That actually curve whether you fall by accident, whether you fall by game push whether you fall because you got pulled down whether you fall because you got hit by something. Once you're in that area, you're on multiple levels that aren't level, and so by trying to get up by trying to move, you're then going to be pushed. If there's any blood, you're going to be pushing a lot of blood around. There's it's very possible that you could make a big mess in this small area because of the the floor, not being level, not only that the turn and how narrow this space is on a normal staircase. You might not be able to spit or cough that much blood onto the wall because you would be more centered. You would be more away from the wall. Right? And it's man. When you see the scene the the pictures of the senior lot blood, it's it's it's enough blood to the point where you're like, did he beat her head against the wall for an hour like. I mean, the blood is. I mean, it's traumatic to see it in. I can see how the state and how the investigators jumped to. This is a murder. This is not an accident. There's too much blood here. I mean, when you see the Nishel photos, the first thought is this is not accident right? But then then it becomes odd too, because you, you have her feet covered and blood, and you just wonder if she tried to get up again, that does not blood on her feet does not determine whether who's hit post or she fell well, and the state is going to try to point out to the jurors the a woman and flip flops Medicated with valium had been drinking. All of this could have been a combination that might have led to a fall and the bl- the body motion expert showed and an animation that Kathleen climbs the stairs to go to bed. She suddenly loses. Her balance falls backwards from the fourth step, hitting her head on the molding, cutting open, a nasty wound to her scalp. Yeah, which is roughly V-shape and she stunned she tries to get up, but she slips in a puddle of her own blood falls again. And then now she's doomed to lay there and bleed out where we also have impact points on the molding and the staircase. And one of the impact points they basically, it's, it's science the, you know. No, I don't remember what he was called bio. I don't remember, but we're with you captain. The what he did was they basically made a model of her, her height her way. If she fell at this point that she would hit that frame, the Langley hit here, right? To hear about this height. We have matching impact points based off the sides they did. So. I don't know. I mean, they try to discredit this guy thought he was very credible. But I think the problem with this guy is the prosecution should push more. Okay. This is true if she fell from the third step, the fourth step or whatever. But all these things are also true if she got pulled down at that step career pushed down at that step. So again, I believe I think what he is stating happen or is most likely what happened. Okay. But. I think that doesn't prove if somebody helped her or not. And that doesn't prove other theories, whether those are true or not, either well into those later. A couple of things though here regarding what you just stated was, you know, I didn't count the stairs. The number of steps it's fifteen to twenty is what I think he says and the nine one one call. But so let's let's use that as as the general math, right? Let's say it's fifteen steps. What what I think you point out here which is interesting. Is that the prosecution, once they hear, hey, she felt this guy says she fell from the fourth step in. This is how where she hit. And this explains her injuries where the prosecution failed then was they said they could have said while that's one out of fifteen steps mathematically, it's less likely that she fell from that exact step than any of these. You know what I mean? Right? She she likely could have fallen from another step and therefore those impact points. I don't match up with your theory. The other thing that you pointed out that's interesting is they never bothered to present the idea that maybe she was pushed down the stairs right? That she was at a different location pushed down the stairs they stuck with the. She was struck with the blunt object on the today and the blunt object. This cover that real quick. The issue with her being struck with a blunt object is going to be that there is no brain swelling. There's no brain, there's no fractures fractures to the skull, and there's no brain bruising either which sometimes you won't get a fracture, but you have a brain Bruce underneath and none of those three things happen. So you'd have to. Basically hit so lightly that you don't cause any fracture? Yes. So for those of you that have not seen the staircase or are unfamiliar with this case picture this most people are familiar with a fire poker that you would have at any normal fireplace. Okay. Never had a hollowed one though. So that's the only that's really the only difference between a blow poke in a fire poker is that it's hollowed so that when you poke at the fire, you can blow adding air that would then spread the sparks or spread the fire inside your fireplace, right? It's like stoking the fire. So the only difference here is that this item would be we can assume that it's lighter than a traditional fire poker because it's hollow right, but it still has that jagged engine that end and what the captain's trying to point out is the thing that I can't get over is if somebody is. Attacking somebody with a weapon or an object shaped like that. That how in the hell are you going to be able to strike the skin of the skull with enough force to create these lacerations in these are big gash. -is but be precise enough or or get, I guess, lucky enough the in the process of creating those lacerations Yudin fractured the skull. It seems inconceivable to me then right? But then everybody believes that she had to be clawed with something maybe fingernails or maybe she was clawed by the the poker in. Right? Because he has. He's lacerations again, they're getting up in age, your your skin becomes thinner. It is possible that you could bomb into something hard enough that would not create brain bleed brain bruising or. Or a fracture, but still puncture the skin and therefore creating a massive amount of blood. And basically the defense is not going to deny that these injuries occurred that these lacerations to her scalp occurred, but they're basically their answer is stating, look. She had several points of impact where her head would have impacted with something else, and it didn't necessarily tear the skin open. Some of that is the the skin splitting hit. And you know, once you hit upon impact the, it's a cut as well as the skin splitting yet created these strange shaped Lhasa, racial, honors her, the back of her head right? The now g there were using as if you take like a watermelon are pretty much any melon and he drop it on the ground. It's not gonna. Just Brad half is not going to just have one point of impact. It's actually split. So is it possible that she hit her head against the. Frame the framing of the wall and that 'cause one split where possibly to splits. I mean, it's it's possible. I mean, and that's what the one eyewitness that did the bio, whatever was called tests that that they prove that it was possible. Some circumstantial evidence captain the officers called by the prosecution noted that the husband, Michael Peterson, his sneakers and bloody socks. They noted this and stated that this is odds because Michael was barefoot upon paramedics of rival to the home and they asked the question, how did one of those same sneakers leave a bloody footprint on the back side of his dead, wife's sweatpants, the side facing the floor. There was testimony from other prosecution witnesses. That Peterson had tried to clean a large stain of blood. Off of the front of his shorts. Now, some other details on the kitchen counter police Saul on the stay with this short. So I I get his shorts were soaked in blood. Right. And so again, was he trying to clean off a section or was he wiping his hands off because his hands were covered in blood to. So that's where it gets tricky with some of the stuff. It's like there's a lot of blood if he was trying to help her if he picked her up up and got blood Oliver's hands than he tried to wipe that on his pants, wiping that on your pains is going to look the same as if you're trying to wipe it off your pants. Some other details on the kitchen counter police, all a bottle of wine and two glasses neatly arranged implying. Perhaps the couple had passed a relaxing evening at home sipping wine together. The problem with that cozy image though, according to the prosecution is that his dead wife's fingerprints weren't. On either glass. The prosecutor argued that Peterson, had prominently set out the bottle and classes to suggest that Kathleen had too much to drink and had tumbled down the stairs inebriated the defense presented the idea that the police may have had it in for the husband. Once they realized he was the same. Michael Peterson, taking regular potshots at them in his new space paper column, accusing them of only solving a small fraction of crimes and not getting a handle on drug trafficking in the city. And maybe this was payback. Make sure you get a true crime, garage dot com. Good. Our store page, the team Knicks shirts on sale because of his birthday and honor of Knicks birthday. He's twenty one and a half. We celebrated his half birthday. Also new team captain v necks there in the store. Check those out for all of our old episodes. Check us out on Stitcher, and they're all free from show one to now you can find them on Stitcher for free. Plus we have our great show off the record on Stitcher premium. Hold on. Real quick are are off. The record shows are supposed to be twenty thirty minutes long. Something like that. And lately we've been putting out our long episodes. So if you're looking for some more grudge. And your life get off the record. Join us back here in the garage tomorrow for part two of the staircase until then be good become and don't let.
New Parcast Original: Medical Murders
"Hi, everyone it's molly. In case you haven't heard podcast has a brand new series. Sure to become your next favorite. It's called medical murders and it exposes a dark and disturbing diagnosis that not every doctor wants to extend your life. Every Wednesday host Alistair Morton introduces you to the worst the medical community has to offer. Men and women who took an oath to save lives, but instead used their expertise to develop more sinister specialties. With expert analysis provided by practicing Md. Dr. David Kipper, medical murders examines the formative years and motives of history's most infamous killer doctors. And now here's your chance to enjoy an exclusive clip from our first episode on Harold Shipman. He was a fulltime doctor and part-time serial killer who injected over two hundred patients with lethal doses of painkillers. To finish the episode, follow medical mortars free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Listener discretion is advised. This episode features discussions of murder medical malpractice, mental health conditions, addiction, and prescription drug abuse that may be upsetting. We advise extreme caution listeners under thirteen. Out of certain point in life we accept death is inevitable. We even come to expect it in certain cases. When we lose someone elderly or very sick we grieve but we aren't surprised. We've prepared for the pain anticipates at the event. When a grandmother dies of old age no one questions it. When her aging friend down the road dies from cancer, it's not a shock. And when over two hundred elderly citizens of Hyde England died within a twenty year span. No imagined that they were the victims of the UK's most prolific serial killer. This is medical murders a podcast original. For decades thousands of medical students have taken the hippocratic oath it boils down to do no harm. But a closer look reveals a phrase much more interesting. I must not play at God. However some doctors break that oath choosing to play God with their patients deciding who lives and who dies. Each week on medical murders investigate those who decided to kill. We will explore the specifics of how they. Are Not just on their patients but within their own minds examining the psychology and neurology behind heartless medical killers. I'm standard and and I'm joined by Dr. David Kipah. Hi Everyone. It's a pleasure to be here to assist allaster priced riding medical information and insight into the killer's modus operandi. Practiced for over three decades specializing an internal and addiction medicine, and I'm really thrilled to be part of this program because I'm a huge fan of crime stories and for me as a doctor solving a murder is much like sobbing difficult diagnosis you can find episodes of medical murders and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream medical mattis for free on spotify, just open the APP and type medical murders in the such Pau. This is our first episode on Doctor Harold Frederick Shipment otherwise known as Fred the UK's most prolific serial killer. Between Nineteen, seventy, four and nineteen ninety-eight. Shipman. killed at least two hundred and eighteen people. Every one of them was a patient who had entrusted the doctor with their care. Each victim's family believed they died of natural causes. Until. The truth was revealed. Today we'll look at shipments disturbing modus operandi, his early murders and likely motivations. Next time we'll examine how shipman escalated his crimes within his private practice and how the subsequent inquiry into Dr Death. Forever changed the British medical field. Kathleen Grundy was late. Still. It was only a few minutes into her scheduled eleven am volunteer shift her friend John Green figured she was mainly distracted. But after forty five minutes green and his friend Ron Pickford grew concerned. It wasn't like Kathleen to be late. Though she was eighty-one. She stayed active volunteering five days a week. Still. She was eighty one. So, green and PICKFORD. On their friend around noon on June twenty-fourth Nineteen Ninety eight. They found her back door unlocked. It wasn't uncommon for hides elderly citizens to leave their doors open, but it's still gave green pause. He shouted hello with no response. Further inside he found Kathleen lying peacefully on the set t fully dressed as if she'd fallen asleep with his shoes on. He tried to wake her. But has skin was gray. And her body was cold. Green colden PICKFORD. Who called Kathleen Dr Fred Shipman. Twenty minutes later, Dr Shipment arrived checked Kathleen for a pulse and promptly declared she died of a heart attack. Green us about Kathleen doctor's appointment that morning. Had she been sick. Shipman replied that he'd stopped by only for a talk. Later that day Kathleen Stewart Angela called shipment inquire about her mother. Shipman. told her what he told Green and Pickford that mother had died of cardiac arrest. In fact, she'd complained of chest pains at her appointment that morning. However, when he filed the death certificate with the coroner. Dr Shipman wrote the Kathleen Grundy had died of old age not a heart attack. All Age means that you have lived to a point where some of your illnesses and some of the chronic things that have gone on with you starting to catch up with you. So we don't really think about aging until we start feeling the effects of these chronic illnesses. Old Age is sort of a nondescript answer and can be very misleading to the corner families rarely review a death certificate, but the corner is very careful about what's written. These are legal documents and actually have life insurance implications and also reflect exactly in case people do have to go back for family reasons to know what their genetic history is. They'd like to be able to refer back to these death certificates to see if they're in trouble for anything that may be in their in their genetics. Kathleen daughter Angela did question the death certificate she was a solicitor and to her it was cleared. The listed cause of death did not line up with the facts. When Angela Approach Dr Shipman he claims the FIB was a favor to save for the stress of a postmortem exam and identification he was helping her. Angela knew her mum love Shipman and that his private practice was extremely popular with the citizens of. Hide. so she trusted him. Until things grew more suspicious. Law Firm reached out to Angela saying they had her mother's will. But that couldn't be possible Angela already had her mother's will. Even Stranger. This second will left nothing to Angela and requested Kathleen be cremated despite the fact that she'd expressly told Angela to bury her. Not to mention, the will was typed in all caps with words missing letters. The low fund set that points of contact was John Smith which Angela guest was a fake name. This will was a forgery and a lazy one. She wouldn't stand for it. Angela began an investigation starting with the law firm and then the police. Before Long Kathleen Grundy's body was exhumed and an autopsy revealed that she hadn't died of a heart attack or old age. She'd been murdered injected with a lethal dose of morphine. The evidence pointed straight to the wills beneficiary and perhaps the last person to see Kathleen Grundy alive. Dr? Fred. Shipman. Angela didn't know it but her mother wasn't shipments first victim. She was at the very least his hundred eighteenth. Murders Spans two twenty, three years with his first confirmed kill back in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, five. But his crime story began twelve years before that in nineteen, sixty three. The first time Fred Shipman saw a woman dying. When he was a teenager shipments mother, Vera was diagnosed with lung cancer. This news was made more. By reports that Fred was his mother's favourite. According to some accounts she spoiled him rotten always telling him. He was better than the other boys. Though they were working class she pushed him to apply for a scholarship to an elite private school. Shipments soon learns that perception was everything. He lorded his tie in uniform his family and the neighborhood kids displaying an early sense of arrogance on and off the playground. But he had no more time for that in nineteen sixty three. After his mother's diagnosis he'd raced home from school to Comfort Vera as she waned away from cancer. At the time it was routine for doctors to make house calls to check on patients and administer drugs like morphine. Sometimes doctors dropped by unannounced just to say hello or have a cup of tea. Fred Shipman got to know his mother's doctor and his work well. Fred recalled watching his mother struggled for breath then grow calm and peaceful as the doctor injected morphine into her veins. More frameworks in the brain by slowing down those reforms X.'s in the brain to control breathing and heart rate. So as morphine comes into the brain though centers that normally regulate these functions starts a slowdown more interesting Alastair doctors prescribe morphine not just for pain management, but we also use this at the end of so much life in order to give them a very peaceful and comics. Vera passed away in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, three it seems shipment dedicated much of his life to reliving his last year with her. To that point by the age of seventeen, he had decided to become a doctor. And in nineteen seventy, he graduated from Leeds University Medical School Later that year twenty-four-year-old Shipman began working as a pre registration house officer at pontefract General Infirmary. In. Retrospect shipments killing correa may have started alongside his medical one. So some people attempt to process their traumas by reliving that trauma. This is not uncommon in his use constantly and therapeutic sessions, and this is called exposure therapy. Exposure therapy however, in someone that has murdering people is probably not such a good therapy. The trouble with investigating Dr Shipman is that every one of his murders was initially documented as a natural death meaning that the hard evidence was lost to time and the truth buried with the victims. Not much is known about his training, but the accounts we do have a concerning. One nurse Sandra Whitehead recalled that the infirmaries women's ward once. So three deaths in a single day that Shipman worked. And she often found empty injection packs left in deceased patients rooms. She presumes they will use to administer intravenous drugs like morphine. If any of these deaths were murders they lined up with Shipman's later AMMO. And it wasn't just Sandra. The infirmaries records show a higher than usual death rates during shipments training period. Perhaps, because we're conditioned to trust on doctors, no one suspected Shipman of anything at the time. Nurse Sandra Whitehead only came forward decades later office. She heard about the government investigation into Shipman it's also possible. Some of these debts weren't premeditated murders but accidental overdoses. Shipman may have hoped to relieve a patient's pain remembering the miraculous relief morphing gave his suffering Martha and overdone it. If. So this periods may have contained shipments, seconds, moments revelation. Morphine had the power to take away pain. But it also had the power to kill without consequence. Don't forget if you'd like to finish this episode and hear more follow medical murders free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
Leading from the Roots: Guest Dr. Kathleen Allen
"Ooh. Hi book James Miller life algae relearn to simplify and transform your spirit mind and body. My name is James Miller. I'm a licensed therapist. A composer, thank you so much for tuning in today. Let's get started. I wanted to take just a quick moment to thank you, all who continually support and listen to James Miller folly I have been so blessed and honored by your continuous support. I wanted to make sure that you don't miss out on anything citing happy over here. So make sure you sign up for my newsletter. James Miller, life, Olivetti dot com. I have a great show for you today. I'm going to remind you that there is life lessons. All around us, also be interviewing Dr Kathleen Allen who uses nature as a model mentor and muse to rethink how leadership is practiced today. She reviews book leading from the roots nature inspired leadership lessons for today's world, which takes nature as a source of inspiration to help organization. See a new way of leading an designing workplace structure. For more information about Dr Alan, please, visit Kathleen Allen dot net. Also purchase your book on Amazon or in the previous guests sections. Both stores James Miller, follow dot com or dot TV. I've some exciting news. Did you know that the radio three times a week? You may hear me on the same station on Tuesdays at one thirty pm. Friday's nine thirty AM and Saturdays at twelve thirty pm you may also hear me anytime on iheartradio as well as all the other major podcasting platforms, including itunes, Google play Stitcher, and many others. Simply search for the show name James Miller. Life algae. Are you struggling state to find your purpose has mediocrity set in and you cannot manage you in the same thing for the rest of your life? Are your relationships struggling aren't sure how to make long lasting changes in your life? Then today, contact me James Miller, I will help you recognize the areas your life that are going really well. And then we'll look at the areas in which you were struggling. We will create actionable solutions to help you create long lasting changes in your life. You don't have to do this alone. Go to website James Miller, I follow dot com and click on the page work with James fill out the form, and it will be sent directly to me, don't let another day go by without finding your way your change. Because start today, once again, goodbye website, James Miller, follow dot com and click on the page work with James filled up for him to get started today. Lessons all around us often life. We become so immersed in our thoughts that we forget that there's a whole world around us are electron IX are so important to us. Does we walked on the streets were busy answering emails or sending text messages other people as you've all heard many don't live in the moment, and what that essentially means is not giving a hundred percent attention to what is happening around you. If you find that you're struggling in your thoughts and your emotions, one of the best things to do is to literally look around, you, you'll be surprised at all the amazing lessons that you will. Learn today, for example, if you're struggling with depression, if you see the joy that apparent has for their baby. They look into their eyes. It brings you a sense of joy or if you have a pet and you come home, and that is so ecstatic to see you get it brings a smile to your face. Or if you're looking for spiritual awakening, you have to quiet, down your mind to be able to see what's around you. I remember one time I was blessed to be in Ireland and I was just outside of the cliffs of Moher, which on the far side of Ireland and for some. I was struggling with something even though I was in a beautiful kitchen. And I was staying at a hostel, which is a form of a hotel and I happen to see that there was this old Hauer off in the distance. So I walked over there, and I had a jump over a couple of fences and I stood next to this amazing tower that how thousands of years old. But as I sat next to it, I happened to look up and didn't realize that I was sitting next to a cliff and in that cliff I looked over into this bay and I saw the sunset in horizon. The windows blown in my face to Siegel's were diving all around me, and it was one of the most spiritual times of ever had in my life. I often reflected that memory because I felt so connected to something greater than myself. My point sharing that is this when we get so inundated with our thoughts and our emotions and all the things that we feel are important to us, and they are important to us. We lose sight of the lessons that are all around us, if we literally slow down and once again, live in the moment, and I don't mean to use that as cliche. But if we do live in the moment to be a part of every single thing we do when we walked down the streets feel the concrete. Eat as shoes strike the surface look at the people in the situations around you. And when you're aware of that, you'll find that you learn so many amazing things about your life, or anecdotes, that you can apply to your life. Those are the most important lessons you will learn unfortunately, if we're not aware of our surroundings or aware, what's happening around us. We will not have those opportunities to grow and develop. Yes, it's wonderful to listen to a show like this to read a book and to speak with our friends, but the greatest lessons, we will learn are all around us. But we're doing our self disservice if we're not paying attention to offend tastic yesterday. Dr capping Allen, who's gonna talk about that. She has a phenomenal way, which she likens businesses and organizations with nature, you can use this same analogy or example, in your own life to remember today, their lessons all around us. But unfortunately, if you're not paying attention, you won't learn them. Did you know I have a YouTube channel that's actually followed? You started. I have well over one hundred fifty five episodes, and I've created specifically for you. I do know that many people struggle with listening to a full thirty minute show. So these episodes are bound three minutes long each episode. We'll give you practical tool or technique that you can practice daily to help you simplify, and transform your spirit mind and body, simply go to my website, James Miller, life dot com, or go to YouTube, and search for my name, James Miller life algae. Dutta. Kathleen is the author of leading from the roots nature inspired leadership lessons for today's world and president of Alan associates, a consulting firm that specializes in leadership innovation and organizational change, and our consulting practice. She specializes in leadership coaching, and organizational change and nonprofit organizations foundations small to mid sized businesses community development healthcare, higher educational institutions and clever of networks. Welcome to my show, Dr. Allan, thank you. Glad to be your that was a mouthful for me to read. Yeah. You could probably cut. But it doesn't even describe while the things that you do really excited to show today. So from where are you calling today? Saint Cloud, Minnesota. I'm sure it's very cold up there. It is colder. That's beautiful from a distance from a picture for me. That is great. I can't wait to talk with you today. Because your book leading from the roots nature inspired leadership lessons for today's world. There's nothing that I've ever heard before, historically. I hear more about interpersonal, -ffective nece, all different ways in which leaders can grow. But I've actually never heard it bridge with nature before we're definitely going to talk about that in a minute. But before that I want to get a little bit of your origin story. How old were you when you discover that you had a national clearly or natural gift for leadership? That's a great question. I think that I've always had a predisposition to look at the world and be responsible for more than myself and I think that I've also my parents were very big on leaving the world better than you found. So that between those two things I kind of showed up in the world in a different way, I showed up as, if I could make a difference, and I could make things better and that goes back to being really small when three four five years old. That's great. I think the difference is well for many individuals when you truly believe something that you can achieve it doesn't really matter what anybody else says, because your belief system is so so concrete. In other words, it's factual doesn't matter what anybody says it's truth to. And so, I think when you're when someone is that young really believe that the natural course. It is going to happen in here. You are today as amazing expert. Yes. Who knew? We look at the whole thing transitioning from today. What was the pivotal moment for you to say you know what I'm going to create my own practice and I have this amazing gift and I'm going to change all these organizations. Was there a pivotal moment in your life when that happened? Yes. Yes, I had been working my previous career was working in higher education. And I was a vice president and I just got burnt out on administration. But even in those contexts I all I love to create environments that created opportunities for people to achieve their highest possibility. So that was what I was really good at. And but as I got burnt out on the administration portion of it. I just decided to take a leap of faith. I thought that maybe I'd gone through about five years of reflection on what my life purpose was before that. And that included trying to figure out what were you my unique gifts? And, and then what was I really supposed to do here? You know what was what, what am I meant to do? And I believe at the end of that kind of discernment five years of it, that I needed to reach out and do. This not just for the organization that I was getting paid for, but for a variety of organizations that I work that I could work with. And so I took a leap and it is worked beautifully form. It's amazing. Congratulations grant. So you said when you were a child that you have this natural understanding of the world in your place in the world, and how you wanted to leave a legacy or change change the world for the better. And so you have that, natural, those are my words and using that concept of, of your life. And then all of a sudden, having this ability organizational change wanting to help individuals, and then you, you merge, those two things together and my sumptious. And that's where this book came from once again, from the roots. I mean, not sounds like it's an amazing correlation of connection between that why don't we jump into that as far as when you look around? What was some things that you're like, oh, my gosh, just really make sense to me in a natural world in the world and organization. Well, the if nature were said to have a purpose nature would purpose would be to create conditions conducive to the life of future generations, and how beautiful is that conditions to conducive to the life of future generations, and it has three point eight? Billion years of development, just pretty good. It has something to teach. So the whole concept so nature when you we're at a time in our world, where we can look more deeply into nature. Nature's design and there is a group called bio mimicry, who literally has been looking deeper into nature and trying to understand, how is it fundamentally designed? And that work of bio, mimicry, literally using natures meant as a mentor a'model, and a measure for how we think about stuff, just really attracted me. And I've always lived and worked and lead in social environments. But most of mimicry is really looking at. Engineering and taking lessons from nature to create better products like the shape of a windmill. Or the, you know, I have new windows, my house, and there's a little insect that exerts an enzyme that now coach windows so that real sloughs off the window more and you don't have to wash them as much. Violin? But for me, I was struck by what would happen to our organizations if we created conditions conducive to the life of the people in it, what would happen to our organizations, if we could have places where both the organization and the people fried what would happen if that extended to our customers and to our supply line. And I just thought there is something here. That's very powerful. The way I'm hearing this as well for the first part, you said, essentially, creating a legacy when your business or your nature can create a legacy, it's means it's gonna be a long standing. It's going to be able to sustain itself, and from that sustainability allows for offspring if you will progeny or whatever it may be. And so, when you think of that as well that means the culture has to thrive that means that the individuals each limb or each part of the organization. So, in other words, the limbs or the extended appendages of whatever nature has. That is just like the different organizational parts of you know, you can have like HR you can have your sales. Development so many different elements of that. So when it does work this, what I'm hearing, you say, when it works in concert like that, it is going to be viable is going to be sustainable. It's going to be able to move along with the trends, or other words, what, what Evelyn is of the of the environment needs. For example, you know what was it was it blockbuster? They did not thrive and grow with the trend of streaming streaming video. And unfortunately they went out of business, where flicks was able to do that and kind of took it over. So the understanding of how can you involve as opposed to become stagnant, and that's kind of what I'm hearing? Yeah. So, for example, in nature nature, always fits form to function. That's part of its fundamental design. It has adapted cycles releasing is part of an adaptive cycle, if you get attached to a form in your work of life, Allah. Gee, if people get attached to a certain identity of who they are, and they don't notice, what else is happening and showing up in their life, and they become rigid in the way. They think that becomes they get stuck and then eventually something happens. And it creates a significant disruption in their life nature, just keeps adapting it if you think of a stream that starts at the melting of ice and snow in the mountain it comes down as a trickle. But then it turns into backwaters, Eddie's and waterfalls and Rapids and slow winding rivers all of. Moves form very easily literally like water. If you strip does not hold onto stuff in the way that human being. So one of the interesting things about what's the difference in nature and human beings is that we have consciousness and we have emotions and. Earn a blessing and a burden consciousness. Our mindsets can cause us to stop our own evolution and development. And our fears can do that, or or motions, but nature doesn't have that. So it, it fits formed a function, so had has caused me to ask questions. Like how can I listen better? How can I create or help organizations? Learn to listen better to what is happening around them, and then actively choose to adapt instead of actively choose, or unconsciously, choose to resist. And when you make that shift, a whole bunch of things change, and I was going to ask you ask you this, as well as with all of your work that you've done, what is one of the key factors that you've noticed where a lot of organizations, just don't do that. They don't learn this. They don't learn to, to really adapt to the trends. Well, two things. One is that most of our organizations are not considered living systems. They aren't they're considered objects. And when we objectify organization, we also objectify, the people in them and objects, don't grow evolve. They're not like human beings, but human beings. We do grow involve. So if somebody says you're replaceable, you leave, and we'll get someone that obviously minimizes ones one's one's self minimize position. I mean, it's it doesn't feel good at all right? And objects are confined. If you think of copy coffee Cup, it's confined bounded existence. It doesn't connect to its larger environment, but nature and life is all about connection. It's all about relationship. We are in an interdependent system. So when you're in an interdependent system, you're going to be looking outside of yourself to see what's coming your way and what's changing the external environment. But if you're an object, you just try to use power resources to power and not change to muscle. Muscle it through kind of. And so that's one of the reasons and then the others, I've just been enjoying reflecting on what I call where how feedback and dysfunction shows up in organizations. And when you go into teams or divisions or overall whole organizations, and there's lots of rich and diverse feedback loops information that people are paying attention to listening to their they tend to be really healthy and high performance places. And if you go into a department where somebody just doesn't wanna listen. And they are there. People are trying to give them feedback. That says, you know, you're not being very effective here. And you're blocking the work or whatever I call those kind of feedback dead zones, and they almost always are associated with this function and lower productivity in. They create real problems for organizations to move forward. And one of the things about living systems is that living systems scale. So if you have a problem individually, you also have a problem in the team, you have a similar problem and you have a similar problem in a community or an organization. So it's, it's really interesting to just notice how the how the power of feedback can an its presence or absence. And how we listen or we don't listen, we respond or how we don't respond can shape the pain or the joy in our lives. Yeah. That's, that's beautifully said, I was just kind of thinking about that as well as you were saying, this is a splinter in a human. Splinter in my finger something. That's all I think about. That's all I feel. So I can get it up because it's be this pervasive this I don't hurt. But it's knowing what would be some of the things that you would say, for an internal audit, if you will of for organizations to be able to really say, let me let's check the pulse of this. Let's see what's going really, well, let's see where some of these stopgaps our, some of these individuals may be stopping from growing development developing, what would be some ways in which they could do that. So one of my consulting parts practices is to go in and help organizations. Think about lick transform their cultures in one of my two of my favorite questions in those culture culture audits are what drains your energy at work, and what generates positive energy at work, and those two answers are very revealing. So when you ask people, what is draining their energy, they almost always talk about a process, a team sometimes it's a person. That is somehow or other interfering with their ability to bring their best most authentic self to work and all of their talents as well. And what creates positive energy, when you listen to them, they believe that they're doing work that matters. They have shared for purpose. They are able to build relationships that are offended, and they have relationships built on reciprocity. So it's not a kind of rank order one person matters more than another. And when you have those things in an organization and a culture it changes how we work. But when I think about leadership and leading from the roots. There's two kind of fundamental principles here. One is what can we learn from nature's design and can, we design our organizations to reward cooperation to fit form to function to running on sunlight of free Renault resource, which I? I think is human energy to reward cooperation and Bank on diversity to tap, the power of limits. That's one section. But then you also have to kind of shift your mental model of your organization from an object to a living system. And when you start leading from a living system, mindset, you start acknowledging that the system already is moving. It's a static thing. Look at those and it changes that people only support what they helped to create they only pay attention to what matters, they are interdependent, they grow with information and knowledge. And when you start leading from that framework at changes the way you lead literally, it means that top down decision making isn't going to get bottom up. Support and viit. So the once you start treating people as living system and you start leading with a different way in a different way than a whole bunch of things, become possible, your leadership questions change instead of how do I create change? How do I transform the energy? That's. Sure, you know, instead of who's going to make this happen. You say, well, what connections and interactions will make this work. Instead of what do I need to control? You're asking. What do I need to unleash? I really like those reframe different. I really liked the non objectification in other words, just some feel any spot position. You really valuing the work value in your employees, because each one of them have say you think about the assembly line for Ford Motors when it was first created, if every if one person didn't do this in the props, there were only supposed to do one little bolt that was their lifelong mission if they didn't do that. Well, the car couldn't run it all. So I think somebody times organizations, we forget about the assembly line approach, and the sense of everybody has so much value. I love how you're able to take this from a nature inspired concept because you have to go outside or look outside, and you can immediately have understanding while I want my business to be able to thrive just whereas nature because. Like you said, billions of years of this is. Been proven already works. And one of the things I love about nature is that as nature involves into old growth forest and more mature in colleges like prairies and. Coral reefs. They become much more diverse. And one of the things that happens is that the diversity of species begin to create these relationships, cooperative relationships where the nutrient that one's BC's needs is actually something that another species has in abundance. And so they create these relationships of imagine the clown fish hanging out in help, and the clown fish generates. More oxygen that the Celts need in the kelp has more protection for fish from predators. Right. So that this, so what I love is the idea the possibility that we could actually create generous systems in our organizations instead of systems that seem to be driven on self interest and financial measures of success. Zach metrics of successor, be completely different. And those metrics of those people who have not yet involved. They're not going to be sustainable. And when you see that they're so high turnover rate, or you see that, that businesses struggling significantly probably because just like you said, they have not created a symbiotic relationship, or just really understood that the value of each of their of their employees is so significant because as you grow organism then you grow and develop for what the changes in the world around you. Yes. Absolutely. It has been affluent. Pleasure. Have you on my show today? Dr Alan if I find him or Frisian about you all the amazing things are doing and purchases book leading from the roots nature inspired leadership lessons for today's world. Where would they find this information online? You can follow me on my website, WWW Kathleen Alan with a K Kathleen, Alan dot net. And if you're interested, I write a weekly blog on lessons from nature that you can apply to your own leadership, or your own work in organizations, and you can sign up for that on my website as well. Wonderful and so people would like to purchase your book as well. Where would they find that purchase it from your favorite bookstore, or Amazon, or Barnes and noble or wherever actually, my listeners know else do this as well? If my listeners are able to find your book, once again, leading from the roots nature, inspire leadership license for today's world. They may find it in the previous guests sections in the store at both of my websites James Miller, life dot com and followed dot TV doctor Allen was such a pleasure, getting with each day. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the time. I also want to thank you, the listener for tuning in today. Please subscribe at this radio show ever. Portia joined with us today, or please, go to my website, we may sign up for my free newsletter. Watch my YouTube episodes, read the articles, I've written specifically for you, or you may enroll in a life algae academy where you can take self directed courses which will help you simplify and transform. Spirit mind and body if you'd like to personally work with me, be a guest on or advertising, the show, simply visit James Miller, follow dot com. Be sure to follow me and also media platforms under the name James Miller life, except for Twitter, which is James m folly once again. Thank you so much for your support. And I'll talk to you soon.
EP172: A Simple and Free Strategy to Increase Interest in Your Programs
"Welcome to the wellness business podcast simple strategies to cut through the online noise to fast track the growth of the wellness business with fear and panic and Kathleen Legris. Hey everyone it's cure paddock. Welcome to another episode of the wellness business. Five cast you know who's here with me? Kathleen Legris my amazing co host Hey Kathleen Karen there's nowhere else I'd rather be always happy to hang out with deal I know in all of our amazing listeners kyw's listen. We have not asked you recently to share what you think. About the podcast how it impacts your business. So if you have anything, you'd love to share with us the best place to do that would be by leaving us a rating and review on itunes. We would love to hear from you. We always love hearing all the amazing things that you've implemented from what you've learned here in the podcast and how you've customized it to be your own. So We'd love it. If you share some your stories with us over on Itunes, it Kathleen Yeah, we would love it lewd appreciate it so much because it does it helps us get our ratings up in I tunes. So yeah, that would be amazing. And we get to celebrate you as well. Exactly. So. All right. So today we're talking about a simple and free strategy to increase interest in your programs. So I WANNA take you back in time. A little bit few years when Kathleen and I I started launching our own programs and doing consistent promotions each year. So we are actually scheduling our promotions and being very intentional. Every single year. This was back in two, thousand, twelve and two, thousand thirteen. There was a very big difference from how we handled our launches then. Chew what we call now, our launch runways in twenty twenty. Now, that isn't just because we've changed the marketplaces changed the expectations have changed. We're going to talk about that today. and. You may be asking Walkin, K.. Launch runway that's a great question. So in a nutshell, the launch runway is the two weeks up to two months prior to or leading up to your promotion your cart open period the time when you're enrolling clients in your program and there's a very big difference between how launches were run seven to eight years ago as I said versus now and specifically what we're GONNA be talking about today is leading your audience in on the fact that you will be launching that you will be opening enrollment that you will be Making an offer having a sales conversation, you're going to be talking about what you'll be launching and when it will be coming. So you're really warming up that audience wherever your email s your podcast listeners, your blog readers, your you know social media, followers, all the people that know about you. You're going to start warming them up between weeks two months prior to you actually opening your cart so. With that said, let me set the stage for you. Back in the day when we first started launching, it was actually common behavior not to say a word about what was coming and when it was coming until the day the cart opened, and then you would send an email and it was like. I have a program to sell. Do you WANNA buy? which you know like I said, it was the norm back then. But when I think of it now is just like I don't love that strategy. Do you remember those days Kathleen Oh gosh well, you think about it. So let's take a little trip in the time machine here. Especially because way back then social media was newer I think facebook has been around fourteen years instagram maybe ten years. So. INSTAGRAM is newer but yeah, things have changed a lot and thank goodness for social media because it does it can play a really big role in your whole marketing strategy. But like you're talking about right now, warming people up that launched runway is so important. Definitely, is, and let's face it of us ever liked to feel like we're being sold to. Instead we would. We like to feel that the people that were purchasing from or were enrolling in their programs that they've educated us that they've given us good quality information leading up to open cart sale period, and that we are intentionally making decision. We feel like this is a good move for us that this is. A transformation that we WANNA make or it's a goal we wanNA reach and this particular program or coach is going to help us get there and so I think that I love the strategy so much more because I feel like it so much more authentic than Giosto. Okay buy something from me. Yeah and it can be really fun. TWOS WE'RE GONNA share some ideas like we were saying nowadays things really do look a lot different on social media it's expected and even preferred to bring your followers on social media and through email behind the scenes to let them know what you're working on weeks and sometimes even months before you ever open the car and when we're talking about open. The Cart we just mean before you're offering one of your paid programs. We've been using this strategy for years now, and it really helps your on his warm up to the program. You'll be launching as well as gets them invested and excited about the process which makes them more likely to purchase. Once you open cart, it really is such a great strategy and can work really really well. Today. We want to share one specific way that we warm up our followers ahead of time. Yes. I love the strategy. So one of the easiest and free ways of warming up your followers and getting them excited to investor enroll in your program even before you open the cart is to take them behind the scenes and on the journey with you of prepping your program creating content and even what type of promotional strategies you'll be using during your launch so Remember as I said, none of us, WanNa feel sold to we wanna feel like the person we're buying from has educated us that they've been forthright with us that they're upfront authentic, and then that's when we feel like, okay. This person is worth the dollar investment that I am planning to make. So I love this. So let us give you a few examples. Kathleen. Why don't you kick us off? Yeah, and as we go through this examples, I, think about. An example maybe that you've seen someone else using, but maybe you didn't realize that was that there was a strategy behind it. So let's talk about one, on one coaching let's say you WanNa book more Discovery Hall suit can enroll more people into your one on one coaching program. Some great examples of behind the scenes topics that you can share about on live streams in stories and even static image posts would include one number one. A routine or habit that you engage in daily in your own life that you also teach your one on one clients number to a screen shot or graphic of a client testimonial and number three a video of one of the resources you share with your clients and how you help them implement it. So this is kind of giving them a little sample of what it could be like to work with you and I love the strategy. Yeah and what's important to note here is that with each one of these things, each one of these examples that we've given you, of course are going to be tying it back to your program. Right. So let's say you have the ABC coaching program and you're teaching your morning routine of Let's say a ten minute meditation each morning that's part of what you do to get ready for your day, and it's part of your ABC coaching program. So you're going to share share on a livestream insist story that okay here's my routine maybe you. have a picture or a video of you meditating, and then you're going to have some type of comment or part of your posts that says, this is something I teach tae in Module One of my ABC coaching program right and this is how I get great results every day this how I start my day off right rights you're going to be giving them. You're going to be connecting the dots so that they understand that what you're sharing. Let's say the client O.`Neil all they went through the ABC coaching program Oh, the the resource that you share. On Line is also you know maybe it's just a screen shot of one page of that resource or the cover page of that resource you're going to be sharing and you'll be able to get you know your hands on this as a client doors are opening. Say. Give them the date in two weeks. So you're priming the pump, your warming them up, but you're also being very authentic and real with them from the GECKO. Let's seek this conversation into a group coaching program. Let's say you're creating a group focusing program from scratch your grading your own digital program. So here are three examples of things that you could share behind the scenes to start warming people up that you're going to be launching number one share one of the bonuses that you are creating to enhance the program and explain why you are. CL including it as part of the program. Now, when I say she or the bonus I'm just saying share the title, maybe a screen shot of at I'm not saying share the whole bonus but let them know that this is something that they can expect when they join your program number two, you could show the program dashboard. So could be in wordpress in teachable where your program limps. That you have everything set up, and maybe you're doing a simple walk through. So we've done this with the wellness business insiders club. We've when we're promoting one of our emails typically will include a link to a video where we walk them through what the membership site looks like. So we're warming them up. We're getting them familiar with what this looks like, and we could show this even prior to cart being open right. And then number three a many look into the first module where you explain why this is the perfect starting point and who the program is perfect for and why now we've had amy Porterfield. She's my course creation mentor and coach. She's been on the podcast a couple times, and she just recently did this back in August where she allowed people access to her digital course academy, the first module they had. Access for one week. So they could get in there. It was the entire first module, all the downloads, everything, all the training videos it wasn't a mini version and you could get access for one week. So you can get a taste of what digital course Kademi was about. If you believe that you wanted to create a course, this was a great stepping stone that first module helped you make the seven key decisions. To creating your own digital course and so this was a perfect lead in the doors are not. We're not open yet, but it was a great way to warm up audience so that they would feel more comfortable investing when the doors did open. So I love this strategy. I think it's really going I love all these strategies. Actually I think they are all really solid ways of warming up your followers and your email last. So that they are excited when you actually open the doors and I saw when she did that I thought that was brilliant because one of the questions people ask before they join a program as will what is it really alive? What am I really gonNA. Learn. This just GonNa be fluff in. You know her programs are not fluff on that. That was a really really good strategy. And here's the other thing Kathleen that I'll just say here too is if someone actually gets access, let's say like Amy's case to module one that is going to decrease her percentage of refund requests significantly because they already know what they're getting into. They've already got a feel for her teaching style and that's why she does she wants people to already get a feel for who she. Is as a teacher as an educator, and if you don't like her style than you're not gonNA Laker program don't buy it right. But you love the way she teaches which she really speaks to me. I love the way she organizes content than you're going to do really well with our program. So that I think is another great reason to do the mini look into your program. Let's move onto the next way the next strategy. This is about doing a free challenge and really about list growth. So you can share a sneak peek of your landing page and then also share some of the benefits of your program as you're working on Azure finalizing. So people get excited to join you in your program in your challenge I mean once. You can share screen shots of past challenge participants. What results they've had. This can be a little testimonials because people like to know what other people got out of it because they people wanna see themselves in other people's stories, they can relate because lot of times people have self day like I don't know that worked for me. So sharing success stories, testimonials, that's really important too, and then the next one would be little known facts about why you created the challenge start with. So things like common questions that people ask you common struggles you know that your audience has pre-programme information that will help them prep for joining your course. Yeah this, and so what we've covered here, we've tried to cover three different areas where coaches are typically showing up. In the online space, right you're trying to get one on one clients. You're doing group coaching programs or you're creating your own coaching program, and then you're trying to build your list, grow your list. So these are all you can mix and match however you want. But we wanted to touch base on the three main areas where coaches are being seen, building a following, growing their email list, and then of course, enrolling clients into their programs. So let's think about when any new television program is going to launch. Let's say this fall there a new program we've never seen it before typically starting probably about the end of July you're gonNA, start seeing commercials and ads for the program and as a launch date for that new program gets closer, you'll find that the commercials are showing up more and more and they're and they're longer and they're giving more information. They're trying to make this as compelling as possible to increase the anticipation for the day that it becomes available. So this is the same strategy that you'll be using with your pre launch runway and you're behind the scenes look. By using Social Media Andrew Mls to get the word out. Truly the options are endless endless, Kathleen, and I have both used these in our business I love this strategy because I I feel like I'm such an open book. Anyway, Kathleen that this just feels like right in my soul. You know like I'm just telling everybody what I'm up to and if they want to join me, they can feel free to do so. Yeah people are curious like, why are we on social media? Most of us, right. You're just killed what what is what are people doing? What's going on today? So I think the more we can share some people love behind the scenes. Look they love sneak peeks I. Now I don't know what it is, but but they do I know we use this strategy in different ways on a we used it when we were launching the podcast that was three years ago I use it when whenever I'm working on a Webinar, I'll kind of share some of the those the slide deck, the title of it, what I'm working on it why? That way when they see that, oh, go ahead and join the Webinar that sounded really good. I want to do it I also do it before I launch a new program. So yeah, there's so many different ways that you can use this and you can get creative with until. It helps your audience are feel invested in whatever you're working on. especially I mean another great tip that we didn't mention here, but that is to ask for feedback. People Right. So as you're creating your program or you're creating your challenge, maybe you start asking them questions what your biggest struggle with this or oh, I have these three titles which one resonates with you the most. So they start to become invested in your process and they want to be part of it. When it you know finally comes comes to life and it's really exciting way to go, and so we're encouraging you to search showing behind the scenes show behind the scenes of your life if you are a product of what you teach in. Your program start showing the different pieces of the puzzle that you do just totally on autopilot in your life start sharing those on social right and you'll see us through this regularly if you follow us on instagram because we're always using our ID stories as a way to warm up our followers to help them get to know us more quickly around something that will be promoting in the future. Now, that's not always talk about, but we certainly are they're sharing because listen if someone needs the information that's in the program that we're GONNA be. Offering Stan if we're not showing up for them to get them warmed up so that they know it's coming. We're doing them a disservice and it's no different for your followers if you're not showing up and letting them know what's coming and how it will benefit them. Then you're doing a disservice to them they now, right? Can I take that worked incredibly well so when I was doing my Webinar so before i. In open enrollment for for the free. Workshop. I post colleague you're just saying that example I, was letting them know on putting the finishing touches on a Webinar I wanNA. Make sure I'm including topics that you want know about the most. So what question do you have about Xyz that would also work on putting the finishing touches on my coaching program a getting their input like let the know what are you working on? You're putting the final touches on it and then see what questions come up because you may be able to add that to your Webinar. You can also find out what? Some of what they're going to tell you is gonNA be information. The inside scoop on some objections they might have. Though by Yeah doing polls, asking questions on social media. Amazing. I. Agree One hundred percent. So we're encouraging you all to go out and test this and start feeling a little more comfortable and we just did an episode recently on how to get over your fear of video. So. If you combine the strategies and the options that we've given, you hear this will give you something to go on video about you can kind of combine those two podcast episodes and really you know go out there and take that social media platform by storm. Absolutely that was last week. We did the episode on how to Conquer Fair live video. All Right Mama I think we're ready to wrap I. Think. So we hope that was helpful if you aren't following yet come on over and do so and you can see some examples of how we do this. How we put the strategy into place you can find us on Instagram I'm at Kathleen Legris, and you can find Karen at Camp, paddock coming over follow. US Hello you. WanNa get to know you. I sure guys will see there have a great week. All right. Take care. Thank you was into the wellness business podcast for show notes and three resources visit WB podcast. Dot Com.
Diversity and Inclusion Breaking Money Silence Podcast Series
"Hey, this is Kathleen Byrnes Kingsbury the host of breaking money silence. Thank you so much for your support over the years. We recently celebrated our hundredth episode and we are just about to start a new series called breaking money silence on diversity and inclusion. I am very excited about this series for a variety of reasons. You may know that earlier this year. I made a personal and professional commitment to break money silence and be more inclusive in terms of my podcast guests and to use my white privilege and my platform to give voices that are often unheard some volume. So I turned up the volume on a variety topics that relate to the struggles and triumphs that people of color that people from the lgbtq community and other marginalized groups such as seniors face when we log. Are talking about their relationship with money earning wealth acquiring resources to fund businesses and and the like and so I really expected to bring this series to you. I have learned a lot from my guess who have been kind enough and patient enough with me to answer my questions. And so I know that you will learn a lot. So if you have not already subscribed to the breaking money silence podcast you're going to want to do so go to podcast. Breaking money silence, and sign up right away. You can also sign up on your favorite podcast app, and please share this series and past episodes with friends and family. So let me tell you a little bit about my guests that will be talking about a variety of topics as it relates to Breaking money silence. We have two women entrepreneurs of color and they dog Talk about their Innovative creative awesome business idea and the roadblocks that they're facing trying to access funding for their businesses based on the color of their skin and not fact that they are women. So you definitely want to tune in there as you can tell it both is an inspiring story and a frustrating story. So it's important for you to hear. We'll also talk about the wealth Gap and why we need Innovative career skills training programs for young women and men of color and highlight one particular program that got a shout out from the Obama White House for the good work that it is doing so, I can't wait to interview the founder and bring that message to you and we'll also talk to a member of my team. She's a bi-racial dancer. She grew up a biracial ballet dancer in a white affluent community. And so we talked a lot about her experience and Ed. Most important her commitment to in being inclusive in the Arts and some tips and tools on how you can support that cause as well, we have many more guests really interesting people with lots to say and wonderful perspectives. And for this series we happen to have to special sponsors. So I want to give a shout out and a special thanks to age up. You can check them out at age and also our sponsors Copperleaf Financial you could visit their website at Copperleaf Financial. To learn more about these great businesses who are supported supporting not only breaking money off but being more inclusive and Equitable in our lives. I'm going to end just by saying that as someone as of white privilege, you know, I am a working wage Progress and I want to thank all the guests that are on this series for their compassion their patients and their willingness to share their stories with me and my audience. I know you will enjoy hearing their life stories, too, and I just think it's so wonderful how together. We are all working towards a quest for an equitable world. We have a lot of money silence to break yet, but please do it in again subscribe at podcast. Breaking money silence, and share these episodes with your friends and family. It's a great way to gauge in a money conversation and Brake money silence together. This is Kathleen Byrnes kingsberry saying thanks a lot for your support and I'll see you next week.
Hour 2: Cowboys Update
"I'm loud and bold radio announcer. Who was hired to tell you about the loud and bold flavors and Tyson anytime there's chicken snacks? There boldly says it full of flavor. Thanks for listening by Tyson. NATO's chicken bold flavorful chicken's necks the. Yeah yeah the yeah. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah yeah the yeah the. Yeah uh-huh as we watch this bourbon garden carefully Kathleen without disturbing it. He noticed that it moves like not at all it's inanimate and utterly without brain function but despite that when it got known about how Gyco not only saves people money but also gives them access to licensed agents twenty four seven online and over the phone. It's clear clear to them. You should switch because yes. Switching to GEICO is a no brainer on second thought. Maybe don't watch garden. gnomes to carefully people might talk the. Yeah yeah the yeah. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah yeah the yeah the Yeah uh-huh.
Wednesday 26 September
"You're listening to Midori house first broadcast on the twenty. Sixth of September, two thousand eighteen on monocle twenty four. Hello and welcome to Madari house coming to you. Live from studio one here in London. I'm Andrew Miller on today. Show the world versus Donald Trump, but will the rest of the UN he'd Emmanuel Macron's call for a revival of multi-lateralism. My guest, Kathleen buck and some Nath Butterball will be discussing this and the day's other top stories, including the spat gripping ustralia, which reveals the on these e relationship between national governments and national broadcasters. The efforts to interest American voters in their own midterm elections and eight were grabbing Dunkin for lunch. Wanna come Duncan for lunch. That's a good one. We're being serious, Dunkin donuts, and it's Dacia pivot away from donuts. That's all coming up on the Dory house on monocle twenty four right now. Welcome to Midori house. My guest today, Kathleen Burke professor of modern and contemporary history University College London, and some fat boil for the center for media studies lecturer in media, developed in media and development and international journalism at. So it's very complicated title. It is. You need to work out something easier to recite in a hurry. We will start tonight at the UN where the general assembly is ongoing. Much of this conclave of global leaders has been queue of speakers taking turns to take issue with US President, Donald Trump who yesterday once again, laid out his foreign policy, creative isolationism and ability. Nobody took more obvious issue than one president who Trump might previously have counted as a friend Emmanuel Macron France whose speech in defense of liberal multi-lateralism and against craven nationalism could have been readily mistaken for a point by point rebuttal of Trump's some that do you think that's how Macron intended it to be heard. Is he trying to put some distance between himself and Trump? Yes, I would agree to that done. I think that dude things which we should take into account one the Trump and Macron a very similar kind of politicians. It's this bad, dumb alpha male and of their persona, five, their politics. So there were bound to clash going to their first meeting that brazen bone crushing handshake than him moving away to its Merckel and not meeting Trump, and then there's bromance which developed. There's this kind of the intimacy or kind of re rebuff rebuffing which has been going on so that that found that they were bound to clash, take different positions was going to happen. Second thing is that while Trump has taken, this ultra nationalist anti-global position. Western Europe may has abdicated her, you know, Britain's Britain has abdicated the global position. Mercury strength was fighting for survival. There was a position which was clear and open for taking macro has taken that position. And you know, his speech was Dutch an older right things. Climate change, Iran, nuclear proliferation. So this was, as you said, clearly position against Trump, but also securing for himself position as a global leader, which other western powers have kind of let go, what do you think caffeine you think Micron sees a vacancy in the role of leader of the free world? Well, that's fairly obvious. It's been moving in that direction for quite some time. It also rather reminded me of the goal back in the sixties. Remember when he clashed with president Lyndon Johnson and what d- golden was not to bellow at the United Nations and say, you know, beat his chest and so forth. He started selling gold. Which meant that that dollars went now. Sorry, selling dollars for gold, which because the United States was already worried about what was happening to the dollar, attacked it in the most fundamental way. And there was nothing Johnson could do about another words. He didn't Bello. He. He did thinks it would actually hurt at the very foundation of of the American position. So the point is, well, there's several points and I quite liked my colleagues. Two points there is that macro has wanted to be the leader of Europe every since he became he became head of France. That position was there for the taking in the past two years after Merckel. There's no one else who has the position. Indeed, there's no one else who has a nuclear power now that now that Britain is is wondering often in another direction, but he cannot do this alone. I mean, Trump can do this alone at this point and mackerel can't. So he has to mobilize. He was trying to mobilize. I will be very interested to see what he mobilizes and how long this mobilization will last. And this is the thing we've been seeing a hint off from various western leaders. Certainly in the last couple of years, this realization that maybe they need to start not regarding Trump as if he is a temporary blip that everybody can just ignore ride out for four years or even eight years or however long this ends up lasting and it may be they do need to start thinking of ways to reorganize the west without America at the heart of a. Do you think Micron kind of is beginning to grasp that or nudge people towards it. Because as he correctly pointed out, he mentioned things like the Paris agreement and the Iran agreement both of which the US on the Trump has abandoned. Yeah. Yeah. One of the most interesting things he has said is that those who do not keep promises on international agreements, one should stop doing trade with them and Paris climate. Climate accord is one of them so he's clearly trying to is late US. It's a very difficult thing of course to do, given the trade and wealth which the US generates, but the clear strong positions which micro wants to take and wants everyone else to take and his talking about things like collective action upholding of sovereignty. So this clearly. Realize ation that Trump is not the most reliable. And as you said. Frans Germany u u k, the can't go it alone as Trump can. So there needs to be a collective realization of this and macaroni is the person who's trying to lead this at the moment. Michael has more problems than macro at home mayor has enough troubles. So. Perhaps it's, you know, the other leaders also allowing him to take the centerstage. Kathleen Macron is not without problems at home. No, at least not without a a problem, which is that nobody likes him very much anymore. As tends to be the way of things with presidents of the Fifth Republic. These are short honeymoons. We, we witnessing do you get the sense that I either he's pitching to a domestic audience trying to impress them by being the world leader, or is he just thinking? Well, the hell with that, it's more fun than more interesting and I can do. I can accomplish more as a global figure than a domestic one. Well, of course you can't be a global figure without a country behind you. So this would be a raw, the short term approach to he doesn't fact remember having majority in the assembly. He, you know, he can. He can. He has that behind him. It's only when his own supporters parties and decide to wander off the real difficulty. Yes. Obviously, his poll is poll numbers have plunged. He is now supported by fewer than fifty percent of the French population. That's quite a plunge from when he was elected, but it's a while till the next elections and France does like being considered an important country and Macron consistently do this better than along could do. So in that sense for those who like FRANZ to make a difference, he's a good thing, but he thinks FRANZ likes imperial leaders as far as I can tell, and the French are two minds about this as as we know it's difficult. His thing he should go for, I think is that you cannot trust Trump to keep his word. That is to say, why have an agreement? Because you cannot trust him to keep it North Korea's already said that, in fact that know you wanna make an agreement. So if you if he pounds on that one, that's a any any wants to isolate Trump that's probably as good as any recur. Well, let's move on somewhat. In fact, half a world away and look now at a stray Leah there as elsewhere. The relationship between the government and the public broadcaster is an uneasy one as boy and logic probably should be the strangest public broadcast. These tragic Broadcasting Corporation has enjoyed a long history of being suspected of bios and threatened with retribution by governments of all shades. The ABC is presently embroiled in a row verging indeed on an outright brouhaha over reports that it's chairman, Justin mill tried to sack its chief economics correspondent Alberici in. To present pressure rather from the present conservative government. And this follows the not entirely explained as yet sacking by Milne of ABC managing director, Michelle Guthrie. I don't want to get over absorbed in the minutiae of this dispute within Australia, at least partly because even within a stroke that nobody seems entirely clear on quite what went on all. Why did want to ask though about the relationship between government and public broadcasters? Some, not because it's something certainly. We hear a lot of here in the UK because it's the same kind of thing. Traditionally, when we'll traditionally lay become claims that the BBC is institutionally biased to the conservative party and the conservative party complains that the BBC is a NIST of treacherous metropolitan pinkos, but it's Beavis is a good place to start because in the nineteen twenties, when the British Broadcasting Corporation was created, there was this idea of this utopian public service. Don mills book. Myth of a public service, the BBC puts to rest any. I any sense that BBC was ever independent. Then there's garden Virginia bonds at Nagasaki of the BBC again, which shows how. Almost director after director have been. Forced coerced pressured by the government. And this is expected. We do not in the real political world when you're funded by the taxpayer and the government decides on the funding, there will be pressure. It will always depend on particular persons who are heading the board, how they manage that pressure and this in this particular instance, mill has obviously done it very badly. But when I read that text of that male which is sent out and I think it's simple, get rid of her. The journalists in question. One of the things one finds difficult is that there is no direct mention of who has pressured him in. This is a kind of general conversation. Was he asked to bend and has he crawled, we don't know. So immediately say that, but you have people in the government or high officers pressured. The gentlemen. Might be, we might be reaching too far. So again, one has to see if there was any direct pressure put because this text actually doesn't say much about in the broader question of. Do governments influence public broadcasting everywhere in every country since the nineteen twenties. In the third world from the nineteen sixties onwards. Of course it has happened, but that being the case, Kathleen, would we be better off thinking of this. The other way around in the time to worry is when the government and the public broadcaster and not rowing. I couldn't agree more. I, I have couple of a couple of things stick in my mind. First of all, Suez crisis, the BBC did not bend, did not break Anthony and the prime minister said, look, you know, they're, they're being, you know, they're, they're betraying the country. They can't say things like that. They didn't break the fact that the World Service's even listened to by by those who hate the west because it is more trustworthy than any other broadcasting if they can come across. Even their own tells me again that the BBC's the BBC the probity of the BBC is rather more than almost any other one one can imagine. Now that's different. Also more widely admired I think outside the UK is an in it well, indeed, a couple of reasons. I mean, I have always thought, well, always not before I was born, but I have thought for decades that in terms of British soft power, there's nothing really to match the BBC that that provides such such a equality of perception of Great Britain that I, I hope that they appreciate it. But yes, I mean, the point is domestically, it's more of a problem. The BBC in this passion for balanced comes up with some of the most idiot combinations program. One can actually imagine, but I agree it is difficult. It is difficult. The thing about this country of course, is that if people, if if if if the board, if if the director general does try did try something like this, it would be revealed so fast. Then they backpedal madly, you know, because the BBC also doesn't lie. To be in a political row. It sounds as ABC and and and the government over there are enjoying themselves. I mean, I think they are. I mean speaking as an Australian citizen, my only my own slightly jaundiced interpretation of this story is exactly that that everybody is quite enjoying the row because there's really not an awful lot else going on, but there is an issue he though I think wanted to one some, nothing when government starts beating up on the national broadcaster and starts muttering about and it. It's a common sort of conservative slash libertarian refrain. Now, the injustice of the license fee that this is something people are obliged to pay. Do you risk undermining public faith? Not just in the public broadcast, but in public institutions, generally? Yes. And then every time things like this happens, heads of governments like Trump will try and slash public broadcasting and funding. So that's the downside of it. But this kind of conversations and checks and balances. We need to keep on having one is the two issues. If we're talking about government interference, we're talking only about editorial interference. We need government intervention and interference as far as securing public Butkus. So you know the two things to to have one without not having the other completely is a very difficult situation. And I agree with you BBC's kind of the highest example when talks about property and and you know the best that public broadcasting service can offer. But my point earlier was that even within the pinnacle, when you look at it very closely, researchers have found huge problem problem. So even within the best. So the question the larger question is, therefore in the twenty first century, what role does public broadcasting service play? And should we give up on it and relied totally on private because the pro- the problem with private is greed becomes a factor. Profit becomes a factor. Why. In the public broadcasting that doesn't. So this is balanced, which one needs to get to. We will take a short break now before we do that, though, it'd be remiss of me as an Australian talking about the not to impart my favorite ever pub quiz fact, which is ABC postal address in every state PO box nine, nine, nine four was chosen in honor of the batting average of Saddam Bradman. You're listening to Madari house with me, Andrew mullets with me, Kathleen Burke and some better boil. We'll be back shortly. This scape has takes you to places less explored and this special edition. We hope on a hotchpotch of connecting trains to recreate the story journey of the Orient Express from London to assemble. We passed by drive thru liquor stores in small desert towns, adventurous road trip from New Orleans to Texas and visit Europe's highest airports for the jet set is among you. We'll show you how to beat jet lag in cities from Hong Kong to LA and reveal annual travel. Talk fifty highlighting the best in transport and service from the most picturesque rail journey to the airline, you'll poured feel next trip perhaps that next flight will deliver you to Cairo on Madeira or the island of Tishina. We'll take you that and we'll tell you where to stay drink and dine. Next time you find yourself far from home. We've even put together a wardrobe for wherever your travels may lead you as well as in the clinic selection of books and songs to keep you entertained on the journey when you're not too busy looking at the windows, putting the places you've yet. Visit this guy pissed from the editors and bureau of monocle magazine is out. Now get your copy today. We'll subscribe at Monaco dot com. You're back with Madari house with me under Melissa with me, are Kathleen book and some left better by now in normal times, midterm elections in the United States are of interest mostly to friendless political obsessive, especially outside the United States as one may glean from picking up any given newspaper. However, these are not normal times. And for that reason, these midterms Jew, this coming November have become the subject of global fascination, especially among those hoping for a large-scale repudiation of the present. Occupant of the White House. It is maddeningly open question. However, whether this fascination is shared by American voters in the two thousand fourteen midterms, turn out was thirty six point, four percent, Kathleen, do you expect that to rise this time? I do indeed both Democrats who went to change the composition of the house and the Senate and Republicans who want to make sure they aren't changed. Certainly turnouts going to be key on this. There are various other interesting things. One of course is, is the me too movement which is produced hundreds of more female candidates than has ever been seen before. The another question is what is going to be the Hispanic American turn out that will be crucial. Will that turn Texas back to being democratic? That's certainly not a probability, but it's a possibility if that makes any sense, if doesn't too bad. And and essentially what we have to remember of course and might who knows which way this is going to do that. Traditionally in the first midterms that public tend to vote against the occupant of the White House. That is to say, when Obama when it was the Democrats, the Republicans took the next mid terms of a tradition as he gave the president of kicking, let them know that they're not. They're not getting all their own way. Well, it might not be precisely what's in one's mind, but by that. Time, of course you don't like what the president is doing. And so you think you'll have a go with a with a another party, I suppose, but that's the tradition. So it'll be interesting to see if there's such a polarization if Republicans get their people out whether that is negated this time. So what is being fondly hoped for here by at least by the Democratic Party ended, sympathizers is, is the so-called Blue Wave. This idea that there will be a huge repudiation of Trump which will bring into play, which will not merely bring back what might have been lost by Hillary Clinton and Barrack Obama, but will turn new areas blue. Like for example, Texas has Kathleen suggests which which has been a democratic state before, admittedly, not for some decades. How confident should the Democrats be about a Blue Wave? They were pretty confident at the last presidential election as I recall the dumb Bluewave our midtown wave again, as you said, it's always anti goes against. Yes. But this anti presidential wave went against Clinton and Obama because this liberal media, all of us do not like Trump very much. We've just kind of spinning it on Trump and because Trump is there. We'll have this blue, but you know, Clinton and Obama were much liked by the liberal media. And again, there was a wave against them. Having said this, it appears as you just said, Kathleen, that Democrats are appearing highly competitive in conservative districts. The battle ground is opening up much more than what Clint in the Hillary Clinton's. Oh, sorry. I shouldn't have said that the cloud hanging. So I think that back. There is definitely conversation and the polls seem to show that Democrats are making inroads into areas which was traditionally read. Now how this will turn out one of the things to remember this four hundred thirty five seats in play, which means at least eight hundred thirty seven candidates. Just to put it down to Trump and an anti-trump movement might be too much because there's our local particular issues and how this will play out in again. Ninety days, Kathleen as you correctly, observed turnout will be key, and I'm I, I'm always fascinated slash uphold by low turnout figures that partly because I think voting is something that people should just do. And also because I come from a country Australia in which you don't get a choice, even if you don't vote, you are stool compelled to at least walk up to the primary school at the end of the street and scroll some obscenity on the ballot paper. Is there anything that can be done? What should be done to increase turnout. Well, land free home in the rave and you. You cannot tell people they have to vote. I mean, I agree with you. I think when so many people have died and fought to have the right to vote it quite appalling when people do not do. So, unfortunately, people don't listen to me on that. I. Turnout depends on people wanting to vote for particular candidate or vote against a particular candidate. Turn out is likely to be higher because they're an awful lot of candidates that go into that area. There are so many candidates. I mean, forty three representatives are not running again because things are so turbulent in their own constituencies. So in that sense, I mean, I agree that I mean, every member of the house of representatives is up and we have to remember that the intention of the founding fathers in the constitution was to make certain that they are controlled by the constituency. I mean, senators are meant to look for the country. These people are meant to respond to their constituencies. So in that sense, no one can save them if their constituencies don't like them and which also made you get some absolutely appalling policies because a small towns in rural Arkansas insist on. Something, but you know that that was the way the founding fathers wanted it, what we should move on. Finally tonight to what may be the least meaningful rebrand in corporate history. As of January Dunkin donuts will be known merely as Dunkin, presumably in a bid to stop repelling. Those very many people who would totally have come into a shop full of doughnuts if only the would doughnuts did not appear on the sign, the official line is that the company shortly to be formerly known as Dunkin donuts wishes to establish itself in the popular imagination as a purveyor of other things. Besides doughnuts, like coffee, for example, I I have in my time, I'm going to start by saying, had the coffee at Dunkin donuts, I'm I'm not proud of it, but. It was open. They need to work on that on the coffee is my my, my humble tentative suggestion before they go all in on this, some that does this alter your perceptions, opinions view of Dunkin donuts significantly one way or the other nail in the only time I've been in America at I, my second visit to a shop was Dunkin donuts mope for all my sins, and I did have a doughnut under coffee and like you. I agree the coffee needs improvement. It's pretty good. But you know, you've been to India, you never think of Calcutta skull kata or bomb bays Mumbai. Some brandings don't work, and I think so my vote here should have would have been with Dunkin donuts. So the thing is some of those city rebe runs the Indian ones. I think have mostly star. I do now here more. I think of it myself more Mumbai than Bombay, not use the Calcutta cult. The Calcutta, co-counsel one, not so much because it didn't really make mattress. Yeah, I I would say I would say tonight rather than Madrid's sadly I wouldn't, but I'm a historian after. Wants did stick. I mean, Kathleen does, does this strike you? The removal of donuts from the Dunkin donuts, Mark has a particularly significant moment in our culture. Well, I it it. It's only the latest in a long line. We used to know what I mean used to be British Telecom, which had a certain ring about it. I also noticed as we were discussing earlier Weight Watchers is now w w it's hard to say WW, but I suppose that means that people who are going to Weight Watchers. It's a lot easier to admit, they're going to w w. So I, I can only assume that's that's the reason. And also they're all short. We are in a land. We are in an era of soundbites, are we not? And I've just said one and it's an awful lot of advertising. An awful lot of of companies, in fact, have decided that it's God knows why that it is more memorable and easier to cope with. If you've got three large capital letters than if you've actually got a name. So what you wanted these Dunkin coffee, don't you. Dunk, what they could if they could have gone? Well, the thing, I guess with Dunkin donuts, if they'd reduce that to the abbreviations that that would have DVD that would have that would have. Opened up a whole. Bangalore been going to. Again, I've, I've, I've no particular problem. We have to stop this one's trying to hide pumpers round on what Indian cities are cold now that used to be what they used to be called. I mean. Kathleen mentioned that they have been some, especially the Arctic runs in recent British history, the post office called it self something else for a while as well. Consignia I think. Nobody understood of dole minute changed its name back after realizing the entire country. Now, no little understood what they actually did. British Steel called itself. Something else after a while as well. Can I tell you a story about my college which is go scooter forty until an African studies, and everyone thought he was very colonial African and all the wrong things given that it's supposed to be a postcolonial institution. So now because it sell us and it apparently does letters, don't mean anything. That's what our director said, but isn't a nutcase good letters don't mean anything because then it becomes waiting. They end up meaning is the institution for which you work. That's that becomes the definition of sewers. I didn't know what you mean. Well, if nothing else is called so s and then so ends up being called. So s and that's fine. To say this, what do you like from problem in? I mean, I'm UCLA and which is sort of a block away from so as, but we've also got cease which is a school of Salonika and east European studies. No one knows what that is either that's cease as opposed to being. So as a you just sort of, no. Which region of the world at it is it reflects response doors, part of you just well, I mean, it's easier to remember. I'm going to so as I'm not, but you're going to sit less than it is to to spell the whole thing out. It's shortness is like Dunkin or w w. I think at that point we the the clock is against us a thank you both for joining us Kathleen Burke and so north Butterball, and let's let's all be grateful that we're not going to be the person who is going to have to spend the rest of their lives sending litters in meteorologists correcting them. Every time they referred to Dunkin donuts that does bring us to the end of today's edition of what I suppose we should call 'em h. It was produced by Ben Ryland research by. Fernando, Augusta, Pacheco, moth Libro studio manager was David Stevens music next at nineteen hundred. It's a business program. The entrepreneurs. We'll have more on the day's main stories on the daily at twenty two hundred Madari house returns at the same time tomorrow. Eighteen hundred London. I'm Andrew mullet. Thanks for listening.
Kathleen McGurl Family Secrets and Mysteries
"Welcome, to the joys of Binge, reading the show for anyone who ever got to the end of the Great Book and wanted to read the Knicks installment. We Interview Successful Series Authors and recommend the beast and mystery suspense, historical and Romance Series, so you'll never be without a book. You can't put down. You'll find this episode. Show notes a free e book and lots more information at the joys of binge. Reading Dot Com and now is. Past and present collide in Kathleen Girls Joel timeline stories with family, secrets and past mistry's are unlocked in the present day. Hi there I'm your host genie and today Ketley talks about the stories who readers locked into entail social upheaval, emotional drama and lost legs spanning centuries. We're lucky enough to have three books. CATLIN's. The secret of the shared. To give away to three lucky readers. It's an absorbing time slipped Sarah that stretches from the parents of the terror and the Guillotine to the south of France today. into the draw, and you could be one of three lucky raiders to get copy to read draw closer. June twenty. But before we get to Kathleen just to remind the show nights that this episode be found on the website. The joys of Binge Reading Dot Com. That's where you find links to kathleen spokes and website as well as linked to the giveaway if you desire to John. Wiley they leave the comet. We love to hear from you now. He is Kathleen Heller. They cat lane and welcome to the sharp. It's great to have you with us. Hard to be. Just as an introduction, you are in the UK and born thanking. Uc Lenton Clinton with NS various stages of a Garbo pandemic. Tell us. What's happening in your part of the world and is? How is social distancing? Well here in the UK, we haven't had a full lockdown. We've been out for exercise every day and actually as as Bush speaking, today is the first day of a slight, so the realization, and without to go out as much as we can exercise, energy caught what from whom you encouraged to go back to work, said things are. Easing off a whether it's the right time to do that as a loss of discussion. But yes. I mean boomers which is on the south coast of. We are five minutes. Walk away from the beach and the cliff. Talk and so because we've been out is we have been out most days king? Long that it's it's just lovely. We've been house bike rides as well. Host of my sons living at home they're growing up and twenty to twenty five, but they've been here for the duration of this. My youngest son sorting coming full night stay. Lockdown started as a since with his stuff in a room in London. By autism minute lockdown was announced he just popped everything into the call drove down here and he's been working. At the sense, so you know there's this good such tuition. which is. If it is the there is some good sides to it. which was lovely is. Getting onto your writing Wa stay at a once upon a time. When you decided you just to write fiction, some sort of a and if side, tell us about it. Well it's kind of yes, and no answer to that and say not so some epiphany. That I wanted to buy in because I always wanted to night. As a child school if we were told to my story I was like I can write a story and I love. The However I sort of went down the science sits. At senior school, and then I ended up in a job and I'd say I also know one day is enough I know revising the whole one day and I was waiting until I had time tonight and I. Don't know I think console that sooner or later, some would say, Hey, ticking. Inviting a whole, because that was never going to happen, and so it wasn't an issue. In Iceland leave realize that. If I want to provide I have to actually sit down and write, and there is no other way of doing it to find the time big. Squeeze out minutes from the day whatever just get on to it and so not happened maybe fifteen years ago. I guess. That has started. Making Todd in my day to I wasn't started an episode in. Just kept rising. and. What did you stop with right then? I tried a bit of everything dating back then I started. Trying to novels has to sort of offers and on's. On then I, I tried also literally. Titians gotten away with those, and then I thought he'd Scholtz toys for the Women's magazine Okay. That's why I kinda found. My I if you liked and I thought Oh, I can do these and they started to Seattle and at that time I had young children and a fulltime job. The great thing is about short. Stories is other that they're not easy to light, but that quick tonight you. You need a few hours. 'cause jewelry. Say You can't. Do One if two weeks or something and try and solve A. The boss, forgetting fist acceptances was attested. Yeah, I can imagine, but now at the stage of your career. You've made these do time line novels, your thanks. It's a situation wave as mystery from the past that Spain discovered and Dan explained in bad contempt. Break Ericsson's. Specialty now isn't it and you don't about? You now that yes. Yes. Age this too in the pipeline. As another Novalis just historical. And how did you? How did you to ban Bogan to that particular niche? Well I found that they were the. Most like to read I'm. Couldn't oil went. Always show without reading a blurb whether number would be Jones Heim nine over, but I I can't across. Kate Morrison and Catherine lead. and. I just found that I. Absolutely loved the novels so much, and then I'd also started doing genealogy reset of my own and my first novel, which is good. He's done based on some characters of by family. And I felt constrained writing that story ended I was trying to stick to the facts I knew them. Much more exciting I didn't have to state facts, I could make stuff up and say my first. Of the comb was. As the main tempe canucks had to an extent is based on me. She's researching family tree and my tagline. What if you came across? Not just a skeleton, the close as it were, but actual skeleton somewhere. That's related to you. Know Your family. Your ancestors lived. Is such fund icing that as soon as I, not by. That's it I'm going to tribal. Kind of. Kind of developed a bit of a Pack Night A. Open eight chapters. Start with content with contemporary and yeah, we've it altogether. Is You have to come as toys said you know because you have historical and the contemporary and. We've it. All together is is a jigsaw puzzle to tonight in. The most recent one that will my three one that I'm aware of is. The seat the Stanton I think that was released. Just failing recently wasn't badge is. Released on the fifteenth of May, so Oh, God. Yes out so. I think it was in our local library. How did I don't know I got commute that strike yes. Yes, yes, yes, that's right. Sorry I got an advance advance copy from your yapped, so the secret of the show goes back to the bridge, speech, revolution and the RUB moniquet and I, it's probably the best of the French Kook. Season the spirit veg. Yes, it's interesting you say I. I'm not. GonNa do another one session. Salts yet might do I do normally when there isn't the pandemic on. We spent quite a long time each year. It's because we both. Love it. That's one reason that I decided I wanted to. To set one on Sunday the outbound time. because. That's where I wanted to spend some time in Joplin. Boy So yeah I'm. Watching another one sentence, but I don't. I'm not as well opponents such history a new veg revolution. We studied bashing school and it's A. It's one of those. Events have knock on event. The effects throughout entire wells the even so when I started thinking. Oh Yeah I know. And then while I'm GonNa, just check up on the data, and then I realized how little I actually knew there was an overall research. which was quite difficult as so yeah I I did not affect probably would at some stage I. Go or Against actually I saw reference and your website that you actually took you cabin crew, goody down there when researching that Bokan. That sounded like great fun. Tell us a little bit about that trump. Yes. We are in Of To home. Will small in terms of Baytown can be huge. I want six long and yet she is coca. She. You're right. We both few years ago. We since I gave up my day job, we'd like to send it up to half of every year Joplin in. Unusually sants Spain Spain for the off off to stay was lovely. Yeah not this time last year we win the out by. I was getting going with lodging secret shot so. I was kind of looking out for buildings and say. There is is about like. The. SECOND UNIT ATMOSPHERE! Spat on the villages of the way lives. I I do absolutely adult. And in fact, if I haven't been depends on it going on, we would have been there right now, we. to to go insane. Again. That's a shame, but playthings will come back not in the not too distant future. is so secret chateau. You've got a group of friends who by a small shattered to give. And then I start to discover something about history of the House. This lots of secrets in emotional twists, and even the hinted hint guys interesting that you mention that you'd go. Schedule is 'cause. There's a hint of guys. And it's really a tremendous loaded and. Lines of the story, the contemporary one and the one of the grits skype from the ranch. But very touching Rayo planes to give very well, doesn't that? Kid I try to I talk to you similar themes for the for the historical story on the Contemporary Story said that that sort of helps to joel together, and in in that one that birds trying to make a new life for themselves successfully case less about it is all about change which. The venture aviation that's that's what it was about so failed order. Sounds again, yeah! The forgotten secret, which is one of the ones that I greatly enjoyed links to women who are basing big challenges and once again. That's a very common sort staying they both. Lebanon buried difficult circumstances ally is caught up in the Irish rebellion of Nineteen nineteen, and is not with the young man who's determined to make his name been island, and clear is escaping from a very unsatisfactory marriage. It's the secret book that you've seen an island. They have a one eyed unnoticed ago from ballymore. End a wondered if there was something about of that really attracted jury. Will my husband's Amish. We we can start. There must oppose. Yes so we've been married twenty seven years together for like the one. Yes, I think so I time I've been back to honored countless times Hammadi John's and we have traveled down. We have taken this year for the absence dual they southwest of COQ, which is why I had to go by Moi's. Difficult, secret county made which plan my in laws. Lived and so. I knew very well. And Yeah my my in laws quite staunch Republicans. Shall we say so? I wanted vice an awful. Maybe I'm trying to prove myself with them. Still I'm still the English I needed to prove was L. to them and say look like. Do you understand what happened? I know about island's history. I, Didn't before because he isn't tool in schools in England it. Just ignore and. A and if you know, I grew up while the troubles was still going on, but I didn't understand the background that axel appetite line, and it wasn't until I started on, and and seeing the other side of and seeing the same. Events the ported. By the Irish but I see on TV and say the difference. And the difference in the language US and the way. It was was the soldier killed, was he? Was it was. It is such an realizing that there's always two sides to the story. On one man's terrorist is another man's freedom is and I wanted to pull together a Nice Matin holds. It wasn't an easy to buy again. It's the history. Of Reading Research. And it's Betty Betty. Fine lines on that one but I was pleased with the result signal of, but there was a point by saying that I needed to is way that I can't do this, but I pushed on finished. My husband was. And he said this on urine so. He doesn't praise for the sake of it so I thought Oh. Maybe is something and it has done. It's done well in America as well as. I just just aside. How did you meet your husband? Will he was living in England at the time I was a student in. And he was living there he he'd come over from Ireland with a previous go and go. And then settled in Geisen and then they saw, and I mentioned that he was part of a group of friends. Really, we pedals. In that book, you'll get into the. More than more than Moore, denies the. which has become very notorious in more recent years went with the nuns, started out probably with very good intentions, but ended up being rather horrible places where young woman who Brag Mental. Really just. Any sort of unprotected young woman could be put into one of these times. The camel muster domestic, one of you characters has trod of one of those times and. I must say I was really barracking hers. A character could she was such a lovely, strong, well-intentioned woman and. I was always hyping all the way through that she was going to discover what had really happened to his son, and it was just kind of little endlessly economical sadness. At the end. You realize that she isn't going to get that satisfaction. She's not going to be the one to discover. What really has the next generation has guy through? Will you team to find a way to get literally find out. Well, yes, sometimes, because when aware. That read the REGIA lights. If you'll, you're identifying really strongly with one of the characters you will, you will. It's rely. I'm trying to make it realistic, and so there is a sadness, but I do think the does get a happy. Happy ending in the end, she she she does, she does find love and has a good long life in the end, but it's. It's difficult to get to get you by. I don't know. There's a danger. I think if you try and. Up, with Alternate Kayak. Yard! How you do it and I thought it would just be a little bit too passionate Would have been a tape Tyson, but it probably would have taken away from the story in the lecture because that pointed John was was very much part of the whole story relays. So your books, they join follow these involve family secrets, and you've mentioned fist when you were interested in genealogy towns little bit about. How the genealogical interest time about what was your own family that spat at all? It was really just a it was back in. Twenty ten I think offensive mind says Oh. Did you know the the? The nineteen eleven cents. is now available online and I just want evening Oh. By my grandparents had questioned unusual Saturday, but wonder if I can find them on that sense anew eight being born in the earliest there, he is the nine. Twentieth Century and I think something like that. So yeah I immediately found them. They lived as well unusual and helped immediately found them, and then I one evening. I just saw going back through the sentences of every ten years. And I go back to eighteen forty one census, which is a fast one across England. And in doing adult bet, he discovered that my my great great great grandparents again, just following bouts that one surname. I've found that there was. A loss of children and sign of mother on several censuses. And I was wondering what's going on here? Eventually discovered the Ol- older children. Children off a his house Keta. She's written down on the census as his housekeeper. And I believe she did start off as and he was quite old. She was a servant. He'd married and then separate, but you couldn't get divorced in those days easily. is healthy. So that. What being really that story, their story and My first novel the I self published. It's called Mr cabals diamond of the names of changed, but it's based on that my great great great grandfather, his wife and then his housekeeper. To use the Victorian Euphemism. Do you think that in the in their real lives? Did they present themselves? As has been widely thing? Yes I think they changed and I've seen certainly after his. It on living in that house and she was calling on sentences. Mrs Baffled. So. Did the children will ties onto her name, also I. Bet She, said unto her. But then later in their lives, they will used his name. That's the name of. Education. And I. Was a little bit beneath. Speak that he was. Regarded by his own family, a little bit better. The black shape was he was. He was jess is. He's been born into the crecy and the house where he was born in dome outside dove is now one of those huge country house hotels that are done as wedding venues isn't credibly grab. Of. Had rounded so wow, they were bowl. On he was the eldest surviving son of family. So. He kind of should have been heritage that he didn't take off. His next on the down. So! That was another little mystery. Why did he get Sova and in digging around I can see that he his father died quite young. His wealth been held in trust is local and he had a few run INS these uncle. To say that his uncle mismanaged the money on extort money house at him, and then he married and then. Age, and then Jackson with his seventh goal and I think over these things probably would against. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he he lived his life very firmly in the middle classes in worthing. isn't a Bryce. His children ended up working in chains, so it was a bevy definite. Slide down. Look tune into your wide career. Tell us something about your life. Before he became a full time writer. And how does have those experiences helped? Contribute any way your writing well before he became full on my set for thirty years I worked in the IT industry, so it bit boring. Really I mean I sort of fell into that job and I loved it. I liked I liked the logic. Analyzer problem solving. And I joined designing systems about all the time though I always felt that I was using half my brain other of using the logical. Part using the creation part until I started rising. And the tickets for a number of years, but that was not work. So! Just stay for years ago now. I! Don Just said Ryder. I'm getting close enough to pinch in age. Anyway I decided to. Drop the day job so I I've ever. Actually the novel unmasking moment, the main character a. Similar jobs to me. To to my is joke, but it's not a exciting jokes. Advice about so I. Haven't really used. These handle much is most. The wider experience is travel and most of. It a general exceeds, is I lost about five years ago and then? And that does mean the aiken vice about being with someone as they die, which is. Tell. US Live is set up his heart. Use these. That you have to major spill real on the page to Moen's. In. How many years were you working fulltime and writing on the side of a? Tremendous amount of. Dedication to to keep those things going parallel How long did you sustain it? Well it was a number of years when I was just writing short stories, which is still in the evenings I caught my fest A. Book contract in two. Thousand Fourteen. I'm and I gave up after twenty nine hundred zero five years five years which have. Book deadlines and the Day job to juggle. About. Yeah it was. It was because it was every I love my work. How our social faffing around and having dinner, and whatever and trying to get out mode, and into the other, and then I go on like five hundred dollars every. Thousands of weekends to keep ticking A. Tanning to Kathleen as read because this is, the joys have been trading. And it's kind of kind of their little bit on people liking to all the either. A series or like to a writer who produces a string of books that have got a similar relevance. Even if they're not actually a series, I, you binge reader. Sorry, what would you like to recommend to Alyssa's? I need a lot I'm always reading of always. Go generally two books on the go. Upstairs downstairs book, so I don't have to suffer stairs with my bad knees. Do to died. However I. I tend to binge at tend not to read the series start to finish a jump amount locks, and I liked to be different genres animates non fiction and different all as an always changing so in that respect to binge reader, although I am a avid reader, an always reading, but then having said that there are certain office whatever you know, as soon as next comes out, I've ordered it I. Don't get to the same way, but I will definitely read it, and those are the ones I would back manned and. You. Know the names of Said Cables Kathy. Webb, and I own a gray. She's only bitch Tuesday's all, but they are toby to the best books I've ever met lessons to the lost. Our and they aren't just just so beautiful and then I do. Must be do love jk rollings books by the Harry posted had the. Kumon Stripe Books I. Enjoy those so that's one of the big name of. Was Because I. Know Lot of authors and electric support. I do find myself reading my books as well as there's always wasted many books to these. I added Greis folks what nate, what nation Diane what Sean will remain. Do time nine all average. Yes so that less to the lost is a world war, two on at it's just beautiful and big listening allies in the nineteen twenties so bright young things. That is a really lovely inside into that society. About time because first of all the vetch. Having Fun a not ready canning about the consequences of actions and I. It's attested. Fans good. We come to the individual time to give us so just. Circling round wasn't here and looking back our way you come from. It's the one or anything that you'd change about how its own unfolded. Or would you probably do pretty much the same ever again? Tricky won't because of me that wants to say. I wish I'd started washing seriously earlier because as I said at. The beginning of this I always knew that I would eventually I. Don't waste your time. But on the other hand I I think the older you get, the more experiences you have, the more you put into nizing, so I do suspect that if I a tried to know how age twenty. It wouldn't have been very good. I certainly wouldn't have. Able Sca- across emotion they. Just wouldn't have the right life. Experiences think so so I'm not sure I would change. Anything I'm glad of dump things the way have. It was a a difficult decision to give day job because. Quite, hopefulness and then you get. A very uncertain. Income but I'm very glad I did. It's it's worked out. The great thing is. Being vice even do that anyway, so we've been able to go away all the time and I can invite while we're traveling. Just a couple of as every day to say daily though Dalla A. Get one a diesel is. Looking forward apt get back to that launched. The. Answer! Is that So looking ahead, enter the rest of this year in pest into early next year. What is next for Kathleen the Russian? What are your plans over the next twelve months? Oh side well I'm. So coming out on the fifteenth made secret. Chateau I've got two more books in the pipeline exam contract at. One of which is. Getting towards a final stage editing and the other one. is out hostage, and so those one of those combined about them the next on his exchange type. Pushing with those of Ideas Specific Mall so once I finished I. Need to stop pitching another contract and and the other thing I'm Dan. We talked genealogy for really just for my brother, my cousins and my children and my cousins children. I'm China's assault at the moment A. Dental Goeke. Tells the story of Ami. Great, so this little project really It'll keep. You enjoy into interacting with your readers and way. Can they find you online I? Absolutely love it. There is no best feeling than when you get a A. Male or face of message, or whatever saying just finished reading such broke agreed updates at Q. A and. I had a message of the day saying that my books healthy help somebody sue the pandemic sitting at home, and they just with my books I was just reading the mole and. Help somebody that's great. So yes, get in touch with me. Various ways I have website, Kathleen, Miguel, dot com on contact form on that, he wants to send an email. I have authors page on facebook. Go and they happy to. Messages. On their I'm on twitter as Catholic go. And again and anybody that sends the message will always try Susan as I can and wing. We aren't and pandemic to you. Also do to the next thing. I never done physical book to the majority of my sales at e book, but attention now because I should. A, there is a book. A bloke tour stop on Thursday for That it should be reviews on about about thirty blocks I think of the next couple of weeks. Should be featuring my book I'll be tweeting about. Putting some BIOS patient facebook as well. Yeah so I always do eventual block tour three book they they great publicity bloggers out an amazing. For into it. It's great thirty. How does that work tell me how that would? I have a this woman code. Rachel who Organiz toes for me. She is in touch with the. A bogus. And he says. Tell Zana's need caffeine ago Boko. Coming out who would like to view it? They all hands up. Hopefully they do say they like it. They get vence as and they read it, and they post to view on designated dates that will tell the date onto them blogs, and then you have been tweeting about Ed, but face to come about in. Book so it isn't virtual slow. It's not focus going round. CANUCKS! Judaic champ to write blogs about. No you can do, but obviously that's quite lot more wet for me. I. I better reviews, and the great thing is about the abuse is offenders. They can be copied onto. Amazon is so the kickstarts the book in an as another one helps teaches. Static Justin a couple of days. Yes, also Thursday in the book released on Saturday. Wonderful Look Kathleen that's being wonderful to okay. Thank you so much for being on the show today and I can certainly endorse the book. I'm sure you're going to get some good feedback on US thank you so much for having a real pleasure. Thanks for listening to the joys of binge reading podcast, you can find all the details and links for this episode at Dub Dub Dub the joys of binge reading Dot Com. We'd love to eat your comments and suggestions for who you'd like us to interview next, and if you enjoyed the show, take a moment to subscribe on I tunes or a similar provider, so you don't miss out on future guests, thanks for joining us and happy reading. The joys of bench reading podcast just put together with fantastic technical help from Dan cotton and Abra phones. Dan is an experienced sound and videoing genia whose radiant. To help you with your next project. See cannot at D. C.. Audio services at G. MILE DOT COM that Steve Daniel CPA Pacelli, audio services X G OUT DOT, com or check Asher nights. He's fast. He takes pride and getting it right, and he's great to work with. Voice was done by rebels and now the GM of sound and screen. Has Twenty years of experience on both sides of the camera slash microphone. As a cameraman to rape her, and also as a voice, artist and TV presenter. I think you'd agree that. His voice is lighthearted and warm. He is super easy to work with no matter what the job. You'll find him at a a B e anche point and shoot dot COM DOT INSEAD. As I say the full details in the Sharon arts on the website. That's it for now. Thanks for listening. Hopefully. See you next week, bye!
EP120: How to Grow Your Instagram Following with Giveaways
"Welcome to the wellness business podcast fast simple strategies to counter the online noise to fast track the growth of your wellness business with fear and panic and Kathleen Legris. Hey Hey welcome welcome to another episode of the Wellness Business podcast. I'm Karen Paddock and I'm here with my amazing co host Kathleen Legris Kathleen. Hey Hey shake in my ma. Well not much as she can this before we hit recording. We are recording schedule off so we're doing this kind kind of well. I guess it's not really early morning now but a lot earlier than what we normally record so told Karen it has to be late enough so that I don't have my man wastes yeah. I totally totally get back so hey before we dive into today's topic. I wanted to share with you and with our listeners a little bit from my experience at tribe live so I just went to that conference last weekend. Is You know Kathleen and and it was amazing. I'm so glad I went. I really plan on going again next year. I'm hoping that the dates workout that you're are going to be able to come with me. I know before you talk about a so so if for listeners who don't know what tribe is what is it and who is the leader yeah okay so the leader is Stu McLaren which if you don't know him he is he is just second to none and he is top notch educator person human being just all I just I I loved him before but I really just love him. Even more now that I went to try so tribe tribe as a program is a program that Ah Kathleen and I invested in this year that helps us grow our membership site so the wellness business insiders club it teaches us how how to make it an even better experience for our customers and it has been such a good reference. I mean we did a lot of things right. That's kind kind of cool since we did it on a wing and a prayer we put it together but it also has given us so much insight into how we can up level that as a membership program for all of you and more to come on that but you can expect in January. It's going to look totally totally different when we opened the doors again and it is going to be a customer journey for you like you will never forget so that's what the program program is about and then there is a live event once a year. It was in Toronto Canada so that's about a six hour drive for me from Michigan so oh I made that truck all by myself and didn't really know anyone going and there were a few people health coaches that had reached out to me saying hey I'm going to be there but I wasn't going there with a buddy and so that was a big deal for me as well and it was such a great experience and Kathleen right before we got on on said what's your overall highlight or take away and I would say that it was just the feeling of belonging so there were about a thousand people there and it was amazing how I've been to a lot of conferences guys and this one in particular you. You just felt like you were at home like you. Were in a room with a thousand people. That almost knew your name. You know and everyone was so oh friendly. It was an experience that I'd never had before at an event like this and it's it was really promoted by their desire. I should say sue and team right their desire to get us to network with one another. They talk about it before we go. They talk about it at the event. It was a big deal so I had really psyched myself up for. I am going to make an effort to sit in different spots in the room. Never get comfortable. Keep Meeting New People and I did and that made it even better but they facilitated it even one step further by the first day we were there. We did a scavenger hunt around Toronto the city of Toronto and so you were put into groups of five or six so that was kind of fun. I met some New People there and then throughout the the weekend. We did these workshop activities so it wasn't just like they were speaking to us in teaching us they were then putting it into practice or allowing us to put it into practice practice by getting into groups and doing these amazing workshop type activities and there was a whole workbook that came with that and it was such a good experience and like. I said Kathleen Aisher hope you can go next year because it is incredible yeah. I can't wait and it was. I know it was somebody really difference. Any of you are planning any type of live events. It was something that you know would be really good tomato. After far as getting people involved in it's not it wasn't listen. Just your typical event where you're sitting there learning. It sounds like it was very interactive. Which people really like yeah? It definitely was and you know it's it's so different you can't really compare it to like when we went to social media marketing world because that event is designed to be just full on education nation and really immerse yourself in all things social media and depending on where you want to show up on social media which platform you have a variety riot of speakers that you know lean into that topic were this was about one specific topic only and the the all of these people have been building their memberships either since when when we joined which I think was April or even then in past years so some alumni were there and it just really everyone was speaking the same language. It was so fun everyone everyone was speaking the same language and like I said Stu was amazing. He's such a great storyteller. which is something that I aspire air to be better at and he just is so funny anyway? Hadn't he uses his whole body as he speaks and for those of you listening that were there with me. You know like it was a good time for sure. Tell her so global. I will definitely be there unless we're in the middle of shipping my daughter off to college somewhere so I know I keep trying to get the dates. I'm working on it all right. We'll enough of that. What are we talking about today. Last week. I had mentioned actually the week before today's the day I'm going to tell you about the Webinar that I have though I have a free online training that starts next week. It's called four key ingredients. Every coaching program must have to quickly enroll clients with confidence and you are invited. You'RE GONNA learn the four things you're coaching. The program must have if you Wanna fill your practice and earn more money without working more hours. This is how I built my health coaching practice years ago and I'm sharing the steps with you on this training. There's going to be two dates. One Tuesday October eighth and then a second one on October tents there will be a replay for those who register but I have a special prize special bonus for those of you who attend live and you can sign up for this free re-training through the link on the show notes page scroll down here. If you're listening in your podcast APP and you can click on Kathleen's lanes Webinar you can also go to the show notes page at. WB PODCAST DOT COM forward slash episode one twenty all right. Today's episode is going to be fun because this is GonNa be a little behind the scenes about how Iran might resent instagram giveaway and I'm also going to break breakdown for you how you can use the simple strategy to grow your instagram following two and Karen. I know you've done this before right yeah yeah yeah. I have actually also. I'M GONNA share screen shots with a few of my give away. That'll be over on the show notes page. You can see exactly really how I word it. You're GONNA see the image that I used and you can check that out on the show notes page at. WB PODCAST DOT COM forward slash episode. You'd one twenty so here's the thing if you feel like you're instagram. Growth is super slow and you want to get an influx of new. The following is doing giveaways can be a great option and you can follow Karen. I on Instagram to see how we do this. Karen is Karen Paddock and that Kathleen Legris we'd love it. If you follow us and we'll follow you back will enjoy sharing really more behind the scenes. The stuff of our lives over there. We do instagram stories so it's definitely more personal than what we share on facebook so come on over and join US yeah definitely uh we love to have you guys first. Let's talk about what an Instagram giveaway even as maybe some of you aren't even sure what does that look like so it's a promotion that you run for a set period of time where you give away a product or a service to one or more lucky entrance and you spell out the criteria right for them and and then they enter and qualified to win so there's GonNa be some parameters that they need to adhere to or hoops they need to jump through and the period of time is typically three to seven days and on the last day that's when you announce the winner her so this can work really well because part of the criteria of giveaway is for people to like your post and tags some of their friends when your followers tag other people it calls their attention to your post and some of those people are going to end up following you and joining meaning the giveaway as well so it's kind of this domino effect and then the person that was tagged tag someone else tag someone else and so you get this influx of people fault so we're. GonNa share tips on how to create your giveaway and how to promote it so that you'll know what to do. If you choose to do this so that it'll be a success us and we'll be sharing where stats with you in a minute but it ended up that Kathleen gained two hundred and one new followers in five days. Can I get you go girl. You're so funny that's interesting. I had never done a giveaway before Ansari. I'm so this was my very first. One and I will say I'm going to do more because it was a lot of fun. It started on August seventh. So if you go to my instagram program on that date you can see the actual post and this really was. This was just an experiment to see how it would go. What what response was. I GonNa get with what I was giving away and I was really happy with the result so I'll probably do this. Maybe every no before the five months or so. It's really easy they do. That's what I like about. It is very very easy so let me tell you what I did. For My giveaway I offered my five day menu planning and challenge for free and that is valued at one hundred ninety seven dollars. If you go to my website and you purchase it. It's one hundred ninety seven dollars so that was almost two hundred dollars worth worth of value so I knew it needed to be something worse at least two hundred and ideally two hundred so that was perfect. Some here are my stats. What's there on that post. There were two hundred and ten comments so that means people that were tagging their friends and saying thank q two hundred and thirty four people liked the post and lie Karen said a game two hundred and one new followers in five days and because people were so and dizzy aspic in this little excited and so creative I ended up giving away two of them even though the way really was I ended up giving way too and I tag the winners and the post and I also sent them a DM to get their information so that I can send them their prizes and they were both so so excited. It was so much fun so here's here's what people had to do to enter and qualify to when this was all explained in the post. Everybody knows that if you go to my instagram you'll see a number one. They have to follow my account number two do they have to like the post and then three tag to colleagues who are either health coach or a nutritionist so really three simple things follow me like the post and tag to people you can have someone tag more than two ideas chose to because that's a pretty easy action for people to take when you do your giveaway. You probably won't be saying colleagues but you can say tag to friends. Instead the more specific you can be with who those friends should be the better and the more qualified potential clients are going to be so who is who is this person so how does this relate to your niche if you help people transition to begin diet your postcards eight tag to friends who went easy ways to eat. Vegan so do you see how it's important to really you. Don't want people dislike tagging their grandmother or whatever so the more specific those parameters in you can you can give them the better because you don't just want more followers. You won't followers who will be interested in what you have to offer okay so now. Let's talk about how to promote your giveaway and get people to join in on the fun so before we jump into that I just I wanNA share Kathleen. I didn't go all in when I've done mine. You really went all in. It was actually so fun to watch how you took this challenge so seriously and yeah your results are amazing so I wanted to just give all of you listening a little clue into a to what it looked like for me I I know Kathleen said she gave away her five-day Menu Planning Challenge which was valued at one hundred ninety seven dollars so so I've done this three times and the first time I gave away access to a program that I think was valued at around the one forty seven mark and then the second time I did a thirty minute free coaching call with me and then the third time I gave away access to that same program again so this is what you need to be thinking about and we're going to give you some examples here in just a bit of of what you could give away but when you start thinking about this in planning this what I found at least for me with my audience the two times that I gave away access to my program. The giveaway was really good. There was lots of engagement people liking my account people following directions when I did the thirty minute a coaching call which really in essence had a higher per seat. Not a higher perceived a higher value right because it was one on one time with me crickets. Nobody wanted to spend the time to get on a coaching call and here's the thing yeah my initial follower. I know who I am but when they tag a friend and the friend didn't know who I was so it really. It was like oh well. Why am I gonNa take somebody else when I don't even know who this lady is. The prize is a call with her and so this would even be more specific for all of you listening in in your health and wellness specific niches because as Kathleen used the Vegan example if they tag to people that want to eat vegan that's great but then and will those two people really tag to other people if they don't know who you are so thinking about what you're giving away to bring that out as far are as like high value is a big deal so think about that young lady said that okay so let's this ship into the next piece of this puzzle so when promoting your give way you want to think about all the assets that you have and where you you can spread the word so assets when we say assets what we're talking about our other social media platforms that you use in addition to instagram for us that was facebook. Our facebook groups our facebook page. Where else on social media are you. Maybe you're unlinked. Maybe you're on pinterest twitter. Share about your giveaway there too and bring people from other platforms over to instagram. You would be amazed at how many people follow. Oh you on one platform and not on the other if you use livestream video. That's a great way to spread the word about your giveaway as well another asset that you you have is your email address so let your email subscribers know that you have the superfund giveaway going on over on. Instagram your facebook facebook group as I mentioned the people who know you that are really other than your molest probably the most likely to participate in help you spread the word and and then also for promoting an instagram be sure to use INSTA- stories and instagram live Kathleen. Did you use instagram live or or did you just keep it to story. I did all stories I have not. Here's a confession I have not used instagram live yet. I do mostly facebook live and instagram's stories because because I do like to follow my advice and go all in and a couple of things but I do want to try instagram. I have not tried it yet. Have you know yeah so honestly I haven't used it in a while and I've been thinking why haven't I been using it but when we first launched the podcast for about the first three months I was using it all the time on yeah okay so let's keep rolling so the next thing as I mentioned what you give away and what you include in your post host are very important so your post needs to speak to the benefits of your prize and who it's for. Tell them what you're giving away. What the value is it is and why they want it to people may not exactly be sure like especially if you're giving away access to a program if you check out Kathleen Post you're going to get a really good idea of how to do this because she did. A stellar job of explaining what's included the value and what they could expect from access to her five day menu planning challenge. You also want to include a disclaimer at the end of your post. That's included in Kathleen Post so you'll see an example of this but this this is required by instagram rules right that they're not participating or or condoning giveaway. They're not part of it. You're giveaway. Luay should be something. Your ideal client would want evens. Oh giving away an ipad which is kind of funny I yeah I don't know about your budget. My budget would now. I'm going to give away an IPAD APP. That would get you a lot of likes followers for sure but that has nothing to do with your coaching program or who you help so what is something your potential clients would love to have this can be either a digital product like a recipe book bundle up pre-set. Reset ten day meal plan for your specific niche an online program or it can be a physical product. Just be aware that if it's a physical missile product you probably don't WanNa pay to ship it. Outside of your country. See May want to be specific on the geographic restrictions so colleen Gallini think we have some some suggestions right yeah so let's let's break this down in case you're wondering okay. I'm a health coach. What the heck can I give away. Since I'm nine giving away an IPAD so so number one this one is the easiest and I'm really glad you shared what you shared Karen because they may be thinking. Oh maybe I'll just give away a free coaching call or free thirty day. One on one coaching might not be the best thing even though it's probably worth the most so the first one would be access to some sort of digital program you have. Maybe it's detox. Maybe it's recipes. Maybe thirty today's jumpstart something. That's valued around one to two hundred dollars. That's that's just a rain but needs to be good enough of a price. He's like if you're giving away something forty seven dollars. I don't know you might get a little bit of a response but the higher the value the more. They're going to get out of the more people you're going to how participating so that's number one what about number two so another one. I Love I love the program access. It's really the easiest and and I just based on my own experience. I don't recommend the free coaching call and honestly it was an experiment. I'm glad I tried it but here's the deal guys like if you get thirty minutes with them and this is just supposed to be a prize really what can you do in thirty minutes not really a whole whole bunch so even even especially for someone's health but even for someone's business like for me that would have been really really hard and and so the fact that no one really wanted to do it yeah that makes total sense so another option would be Maybe you just are sending your favorite book or a book bundle of sorts. I have done giveaways lots of times for lots of different things over the years and what makes this one super attractive is you can send it via. Amazon so you just get the person's address boom you order. Greta is shipped for you. You don't even have to manually do anything no trip to the post office and if you have Amazon prime membership even better because now it doesn't even cost you anything for shipping so I love that one. I love giving away books which this is actually getting me fired Yup. I needed to do something inside my facebook group because I've had three books this summer that have been so impactful on me. that I definitely I should do that so I love. That idea was funny. You say that because I did a giveaway in my facebook group a few months ago and although you're not really agana necessarily reach more people I mean you you could but I just did it. Just for my my current members and people loved it. Yeah Ah love love loved it so yeah that that is really get run so you you just want the book to or books to somehow relate to what you do ya aw look look at like maybe he's like. What Book Are you reading right now and just think about. Is this something that would help my ideal client yeah. It doesn't necessarily have to be you know. It could be like your favorite cookbook. It could be something related to. Oh if you do teach vegan eating something thing around that but it also could be something around personal development and own because let's face it for any major changes transformations in your health you have to get your head straight to and setting goals in personal development and and navigating those changes your body mind mind and spirit. You're you're going to need some support on that so it could even be something better combination thereof so you know think outside the box. It doesn't have to be linear but still related program. Yeah I liked that a lot. so the next one would be you can put together some sort of care basket so for best you could send something like like some meditations along with the candle and maybe a crystal. Maybe this is an for me. This'll be fun. I have done this before more so for prizes for my challenges but also some exercise gadgets jets you know maybe some resistance bands act the sky's the limit it's so easy views Amazon. Are you kidding me. How how easy is that yeah. Yeah anything. Only tells you WanNa add out of those that we have access to some sort of digital program. You have a favorite book or books some sort of little care basket or care package. Yeah I think those are concrete examples and certainly every single person listening can fit somewhere in that equation and and experiment because just because something worked for our audience or didn't work for our audience audience doesn't mean it wouldn't work for yours. Oh baby steps and keep experimenting Yep. I love it. Keep it simple. That's it simple for sure. It doesn't have to be complicated and I mean we're basically through the stop so easy breezy right. Just make sure you go to the show notes page and look look at what Kathleen did exactly and just model what she did super easy. She did all the heavy lifting for you okay so let's just recap this right eight. Instagram giveaways are fun and easy and they can get you in front of New People and boost your followers in a short period of time so that's really exciting. You know that we love when you take action so give it a try. Following what we laid out free today and let us know how it goes you can do that by tagging us on instagram honestly what we'd love for you to do as when you host about your giveaway on instagram tag us and so so it'll it'll notify us we can take a peek at it. That'd be Super Fun. Don't you think Kathleen Yeah it is it is I to me. This is one of the easiest things you can do on on social media to get new followers. Yeah I love it. You need to create a post you to have some sort of graphic figure out the parameters and go for it so I think this is something you guys really could take action on in the next seven days. You Think Karen Oh not could take action. uh-huh will take action. I want you all anyone listening right now. Raise your hand. Raise your right hand and say I will take action as you're driving. I'm your instagram way in the next seven days. Yeah superfund super easy aright so to to get the show notes where you can check out all the good stuff. We talked about today go to. WBZ PODCASTS DOT com forward slash episode twenty and you can also get the link there air to register for my Webinar. That's run the show notes page again the Webinar. We'll have two dates. The first one is October eighth and the second one is October tenth so we sure to grab. Have your spot for those. I'll be covering the four key ingredients. Every coaching program must have to quickly enroll clients conference. I hope to see you there yeah I I can't I'm so excited I'm going to be they're better percent. I am going to be there. Track you down so guys join us back next week when our guest is going to share nine types of social media posts that engagement if you feel like posting all the right things on social media what years still airing nothing but crickets. You're definitely going to want to tune in and this. Gal is one of our all time fades apes so you'RE GONNA want to make sure you join us so in the meantime have an amazing week and I'll see you next time. Take Care Thank you for listening to the wellness business podcast for show notes in three resources visit W._B._Z. PODCAST DOT COM.
New Parcast Original: Medical Murders
"Hi Everyone, it's molly. In case you haven't heard podcast has a brand new series. Sure to become your next favorite. It's called medical murders and it exposes a dark and disturbing diagnosis that not every doctor wants to extend your life. Every Wednesday host Alistair Morton introduces you to the worst the medical community has to offer. Men and women who took an oath to save lives, but instead used their expertise to develop more sinister specialties. With expert analysis provided by practicing md Dr David Kipper Medical Murders examines the formative years and motives of history's most infamous killer doctors. And now here's your chance to enjoy an exclusive clip from our first episode on Harold Shipman. He was a fulltime doctor and part-time serial killer who injected over two hundred patients with lethal doses of painkillers. To finish the episode, follow medical mortars free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Listener discretion is advised this episode features discussions of murder medical malpractice, mental health conditions, addiction, and prescription drug abuse that may be upsetting. We advise extreme caution listeners under thirteen. Out of certain point in life we accept death is inevitable. We even come to expect it in certain cases. When we lose someone elderly or very sick we grieve but we aren't surprised. We've prepared for the pain anticipates at the event. When a grandmother dies of old age no one questions it. When her aging friend down the road dies from cancer, it's not a shock. And when over two hundred elderly citizens of Hyde. England died within a twenty year span. No imagined that they were the victims of the UK's most prolific serial killer. This is medical murders a podcast original. For decades, thousands of medical students have taken the hippocratic oath, it boils down to do no harm. But a closer look reveals a phrase much more interesting. I must not play at God. However some doctors break that oath choosing to play God with their patients, deciding who lives and who dies. Each week on medical murders investigate those who decided to kill. We will explore the specifics of how they. Are Not just on their patients, but within their own minds examining the psychology and neurology behind heartless medical killers. I'm standard and and I'm joined by Dr David Kipah. Hi everyone it's a pleasure to be here to assist allaster priced riding medical information and insight into the killer's modus operandi. I've been in practice for over three decades specializing an internal and addiction medicine and I'm really thrilled to be part of this program because I'm a huge fan of crime stories and for me as a doctor solving a murder is much like sobbing difficult diagnosis you can find episodes of medical murders and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream medical mattis for free on spotify, just open the APP and type medical murders in the such Pau. This is our first episode on Doctor Harold Frederick. Shipment otherwise known as Fred the UK's most prolific serial killer. Between nineteen seventy, four and nineteen ninety-eight Shipman killed at least two hundred and eighteen people. Every one of them was a patient who had entrusted the doctor with their care. Each victim's family believed they died of natural causes. Until the truth was revealed. Today we'll look at shipments, disturbing modus operandi, his early murders and likely motivations. Next time, we'll examine how shipman escalated his crimes within his private practice and how the subsequent inquiry into Dr Death Forever. Changed the British Medical Field Kathleen Grundy was late. Still. It was only a few minutes into her scheduled eleven am volunteer shift her friend John. Green figured she was mainly distracted. But after forty five minutes green and his friend, Ron Pickford grew concerned. It wasn't like Kathleen to be late. Though she was eighty-one she stayed active volunteering five days a week. Still she was eighty one. So Green and Pickford went to check on their friend around noon on June twenty-fourth. Nineteen ninety. Eight. They found her back door unlocked. It wasn't uncommon for hides elderly citizens to leave their doors open, but it's still gave green pause. He shouted hello with no response. Further inside he found Kathleen lying peacefully on the set t fully dressed as if she'd fallen asleep with his shoes on. He. Tried to wake her. But has skin was gray. And Her Was Cold. Green Colden Pickford who called Kathleen Dr Fred Shipman. Twenty minutes later, Dr Shipment arrived checked Kathleen for a pulse and promptly declared she died of a heart attack. Green us about Kathleen doctor's appointment that morning. Had she been sick? Shipman replied that he'd stopped by only for a talk. Later that day Kathleen Stewart Angela called shipment inquire about her mother. Shipman told her what he told Green and Pickford that mother had died of cardiac arrest. In fact, she'd complained of chest pains at her appointment that morning. However when he filed the death certificate with the coroner. Dr Shipman wrote the Kathleen Grundy had died of old age not a heart attack. All Age means that you have lived to a point where some of your illnesses and some of the chronic things that have gone on with you starting to catch up with you. So we don't really think about aging until we start feeling the effects of these chronic illnesses. Old Age is sort of a nondescript answer and can be very misleading to the coroner families rarely review a death certificate, but the corner is very careful about what's written. These are legal documents and actually have life insurance implications and also reflect exactly in case people do have to go back for family reasons to know what their genetic history is. They'd like to be able to refer back to these death certificates to see if they're in trouble for anything that may be in their in their genetics. Kathleen daughter Angela did question the death certificate she was a solicitor and to her it was cleared. The listed cause of death did not line up with the facts. When Angela Approach Dr Shipman? He claims the FIB was a favor to save for the stress of a postmortem exam and identification he was helping her. Angela knew her mum love Dr Shipman and that his private practice was extremely popular with the citizens of hide. so she trusted him. Until things grew more suspicious. Law Firm reached out to Angela saying they had her mother's will. But that couldn't be possible. Angela already had her mother's will. Even stranger this second will left nothing to Angela and requested Kathleen be cremated despite the fact that she'd expressly told Angela, to bury her. Not to mention, the will was typed in all caps with words missing letters. The low fund set that points of contact was John Smith, which Angela guest was a fake name. This will was a forgery and a lazy. One. She wouldn't stand for it. Angela began an investigation starting with the law firm and then the police. Before Long Kathleen Grundy's body was exhumed and an autopsy revealed that she hadn't died of a heart attack or old age. She'd been murdered injected with a lethal dose of morphine. The evidence pointed straight to the wills beneficiary and perhaps the last person to see. Kathleen Grundy alive. Dr. Fred Shipman. Angela didn't know it but her mother wasn't shipments first victim. She was at the very least his hundred eighteenth. His murders spans twenty three years with his first confirmed kill back in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, five. But his crime story began twelve years before that in nineteen, sixty three. The first time Fred Shipman saw a sick woman dying. When he was a teenager shipments mother Vera was diagnosed with lung cancer. This news was made more. By reports that Fred was his mother's favourite. According to some accounts she spoiled him rotten always telling him. He was better than the other boys. Though. They were working class she pushed him to apply for a scholarship to an elite private school. Shipments soon learns that perception was everything. He lorded his tie in uniform over his family and the neighborhood kids displaying an early sense of arrogance on and off the playground. But. He had no more time for that in nineteen sixty three. After his mother's diagnosis. He'd raced home from school to Comfort Vera as she waned away from cancer. At the time it was routine for doctors to make house calls to check on patients and administer drugs like morphine. Sometimes doctors dropped by unannounced just to say hello or have a cup of tea. Fred Shipman got to know his mother's doctor and his work. Well. Fred recalled watching his mother struggled for breath then grow calm and peaceful as the doctor injected morphine into her veins. More frameworks in the brain by slowing down those refl X.'s in the brain to control breathing and heart rate. So as morphine comes into the brain though centers that normally regulate these functions starts a slowdown more interesting Alastair doctors prescribe morphine, not just for pain management, but we also use this at the end of so much life in order to give them a very peaceful and comics. Vera passed away in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, three it seems shipment dedicated much of his life to reliving his last year with her. To that point by the age of seventeen, he had decided to become a doctor. And in nineteen seventy, he graduated from Leeds University Medical School. Later. That year twenty-four-year-old Shipman began working as a pre registration house officer at pontefract General Infirmary. In retrospect shipments killing correa may have started alongside his medical one. So some people attempt to process their traumas by reliving that trauma. This is not uncommon in his use constantly and therapeutic sessions, and this is called exposure therapy. Exposure therapy however in someone that has murdering people is probably not such a good therapy. The trouble with investigating Dr Shipman is that every one of his murders was initially documented as a natural death meaning that the hard evidence was lost to time and the truth buried with the victims. Not much is known about his training, but the accounts we do have a concerning. One nurse Sandra Whitehead recalled that the infirmaries women's ward once. So three deaths in a single day that Shipman worked. And she often found empty injection packs left in deceased patients rooms. She presumes they will use to administer intravenous drugs like morphine. If any of these deaths were murders they lined up with Shipman's later AMMO. And it wasn't just Sandra. The infirmaries records show a higher than usual death rates during shipments training period. Perhaps because we're conditioned to trust on doctors, no one suspected Shipman of anything at the time. Nurse Sandra Whitehead only came forward decades later office she heard about the government investigation into Shipman it's also possible. Some of these debts weren't premeditated murders but accidental overdoses. Shipman may have hoped to relieve a patient's pain remembering the miraculous relief morphing gave his suffering Martha and done it. If. So this periods may have contained shipments, seconds, moments revelation. Morphine had the power to take away pain. But it also had the power to kill without consequence. Don't forget if you'd like to finish this episode and hear more follow medical murders free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.