15 Episode results for "Kandel"

The Rise and Sudden Fall of Zimelidine: The First SSRI

The Carlat Psychiatry Podcast

23:35 min | 1 year ago

The Rise and Sudden Fall of Zimelidine: The First SSRI

"Which few people remember. Pete best the fifth beatle who was replaced by ringo starr and few recalls melamine the first. Sri that almost brought the serotonin. Jake antidepressant industry to a halt. Welcome to the carlisle. Psychiatry podcast keeping psychiatry. Honest since two thousand and three. I'm chris sake. And the editor in chief of the carlisle psychiatry report. And i'm kelly newsom a psychiatric. Npr in dedicated reader of every issue on march fourteen. Two thousand twelve lexa probe became the last sri to lose. Its patent closing the book on a quarter century of science and marketing. That changed sometimes confused the way we think about antidepressants. Now that the unpublished studies have come to light and the incentives to favor. One drug over another have dried up. We thought it was time to take a sober look. At what if anything really sets the six esa sary's apart you find that review in november december double issue but we left one of them out. There was a seventh. Sri was quickly forgotten after its inauspicious. Release in nineteen eighty two. It was called similar dean and it was born out of discoveries that would lead its invented to receive the nobel prize and today will tell it story in nineteen fifty five. A young pharmacologist arvid carlson on sabbatical from his post at the university of london sweden. He took up a position at the national institutes of health in bethesda maryland up to this time the brain was thought to be an electrical oregon and its functions were explained by electrical transmissions through the neurons. But dr carlson felt a shift he said for the first time people really started to think of the brain in terms of chemistry he set out to search for the neurotransmitters that might explain this burgeoning science of brain chemistry using medication Researching had just been approved by the fda as an anti hypertensive but it had psychological effects that were pivotal the discovery of psychopharmacology. The drug had been isolated in the nineteen forties from an indian milkweed. Flower known as indian. Snake route this planted been used for centuries to treat mental illness in india and the pharmaceutical version recipient was effective at treating psychosis in patients with schizophrenia. In fact were serpent almost became the first antipsychotic but two things held it back. I it caused hypertension and second. It had a nasty tendency induced depression. But the doctor colston's is a drug. With so many psychological effects might lead the way to the neurotransmitters that govern the chemical structure of the brain using the new science of fluorescence microscopy. He was able to show that researching. 'cause three chemicals. In the brain to disappear dopamine noradrenaline and serotonin it depleted them. By blocking the reuptake into the neuron administration of reserve in recently introduced anti psychotic and anti hypertensive drag caused the virtually complete disappearance of serotonin from the brain over and other tissues after his sabbatical at the nih. Dr colston returned to his native sweden and spent the next five years trying to prove his ideas. About the three big manoa means dopamine norepinephrine and serotonin. The ideas were met with skepticism. At first but by the mid nineteen sixties they had moved into the mainstream and were influencing discoveries in psychiatry and neurology in vienna the neurologist walter burke meyer observed that research pain induced. A kind of muscle stiffness. That was similar to what he was seeing in his parkinson's patients working from that clue. Dr burke meyer looked at the dopamine levels in his parkinson's patients and found that they were depleted and when he gave them l. dope oh to restore their dopamine. Their symptoms improved so it was actually through the anti psychotics that we discovered that parkinson's is a disease of dopamine rather than vice versa. Dr carlson went on to receive the nobel prize in medicine in two thousand for his role in the discovery of dopamine. Along with paul. Green guard. And the psychiatrist eric kandel but dopamine was just the beginning of his journey were serpine at up three doors dopamine serotonin and norepinephrine and he was about to turn the knob on the second one. By the late nineteen sixties l. Doku became the standard of care of parkinson's disease and ought to call and turned his eye. To what another monitor mean that research depleted serotonin. The tricyclic antidepressants had been in use for a decade at this point and it was widely thought that they acted through repin ephron but delta carlsson demonstrated in nineteen sixty eight that the tricyclic also block the reuptake of serotonin of typic- dry site again to depress dragging it. Bremen nacht only acts on the reuptake of noradrenaline viral. So-and-so tony which was not had knocked meaningful before but that was clearly demonstrated here nine hundred sixty eight and we decided we would like to to develop a compound that would be selectively acting all new on seventy the next four years he worked. Tirelessly ad astra the swedish pharmaceutical firm. We now know as astra zeneca to develop a compound that selectively blocked serotonin reuptake that search board him to finance. Remain an anti histamine. Similar to benadryl but still used today for allergies not to be confused with weight. Loss drug frontier remain to which it has no relation. The early antihistamines dirty drugs and they did a lot more than just block. Histamine that were anti-colonial dick and two of them. Finale remain and i in hydrogen benadryl block. Serotonin reuptake dada. Carlson modified finnair remain creates the melody the first. Sri we decided to synthesize. That would be selectively acting on the reuptake of serotonin and we had found certain antihistamines. That seemed to be good starting points. Meanwhile in indianapolis indiana a neuroscientists did ally lily. David wong was tinkering with the other. Two narvik antihistamine diphenhydramine benadryl in hopes to improve on antidepressant properties. Yes you heard that right. Diphenhydramine has antidepressant properties but they would meek and easily overshadowed by the drowziness imparted by the drug at. Eli lilly dr. Wong's team lined up twelve derivatives of diphenhydramine and tested their effects. On the big three mono means serotonin norepinephrine and dopamine one of them. Fluoxetine stood out. As the most selective for serotonin and he filed for the drugs. Patent in nineteen seventy four two years after some melodies patent as melody came to market six years before purrs x release was released in the european market in nineteen eighty two. It looks like a major advance. It worked as well as the tricyclic in head to head trials. It was tested against four of them. But it lacked their sedative anti cholinergic and cardiotoxic properties and it appeared safe in overdose. There was no mention of sexual side effects on the drug but some authors were concerned about a different risk on editing weight loss weight loss. That's sounds like a positive effect. Yes but these were different times. Body mass index did not start. It's steady unending rise in the us until the early nineteen eighties and back in those days. Weight loss was often viewed as problematic symptom of depression. Medications back then were reserved for the more. Severe cases of depression and most of the severe cases had melancholic features. An appetite loss was one of the cardinal symptoms of melancholia. the other symptoms. Were early morning awakening mood. That was worse than morning and a mood. That doesn't react much positive or negative events but stay still like a rock profound agitation or slowing in the muscles when the us arise came out at open. The door for milder cases of depression to be treated with medications and these milder cases tended to have high appetite and weight gain these recalled atypical features because they were in many ways the opposite of the melancholic features. That psychiatrists were used to seeing in the hospital and used to treating with medications. The other atypical features are oversleeping and fatigue as opposed to the early morning awakening of melancholia. A mood that is worse as the day goes on as opposed to worse in the morning and a mood that's highly reactive to both positive and negative events including a high sensitivity to rejection as opposed the melancholic mood. That stays still a rock. And in atypical depression. The arms and legs can feel heavy as if weighed down by lead weights called leaden paralysis. So when's milligan was launched in nineteen eighty-two the main concerns about it were that it might disrupt sleep and could cause weight loss. It story is one of great promise. Though and great disappointment within a year of its release there were reports of gay on beret syndrome. Soon after starting the drug the problem was rare but serious zam. Dean was causing the body's immune system to attack its own nerves causing paralysis and sometimes even death from jeon beret burke pharmaceuticals planned to launch the drug in the us through a licensing agreement with astra but those plans never took shape as the association with kion beret caused the drug to be withdrawn from the market in nineteen eighty three about a year and a half. After its release the scare slowed down research on serotonin medications. That was very good evidence that this is an excellent antidepressant aged. Just as good as the the tri cyclic. But much better in terms of side effects about it was withdraw. And and astra didn't want to hear anything more about serotonin. It became a bad word. Adjustment ally lilly had invested over a decade of work in the candidate sarai fluoxetine prozac they submitted date or fluoxetine to the fda nineteen ninety five but the fda was slow to approve the drug and so they waited but it took two and a half years to come the gilliam beret scare had caused the agency to be extra cautious. The news came in over the christmas season of nineteen eighty seven and because he li- lilley was closed during christmas. Dong heard about it while watching the local television news. On december twenty ninth after sixteen years of clinical and laboratory work the drug would finally brought to market. It was the ultimate vindication he wrote as we had carried the burden of the project and had been ridiculed for many years as the ones who discovered and developed a molecule looking for disease but perhaps the ones who awaited the arrival of fluoxetine most anxiously with the patients who had recovered on similar vein. The kananga take it. Some of them had had talks. Excite effects to the drug and psychiatrists were hesitant to restart fluoxetine the fear of a repeat reaction but they did not die. Major toxicity occurred same thing happened with each new sarai that released in the early nineteen nineties soon. After their release returing papers appeared showing no cross sensitivity in patients who had experienced toxic on developing prozac would soon capture the imagination of the public in a way that smell. They never did thought. Wong attributes this to the unique qualities of the drug. The sustained effectiveness of fluoxetine low side effect profile overdose safety once a day. Dosing lack of a requirement for does tie trae shen and improve risk benefit ratio have led to widespread use by physicians. Visit melody enjoyed those same qualities. At least before the link with gillian beret was discovered as melody was also primarily released in countries that don't allow pharmaceutical advertising. These countries with a socialized system of medicine and the government knows that advertising. A doctor's patients mainly serves to drive up the cost of healthcare. He lied lilly. Had one of the best at agencies in the business and they got an extra boost from a young psychiatrist in rhode island peter kramer when prozac was released. Dr kramer had just finished a stint at the iowa writer's workshop and he was ready to put the tools he'd learned to use like most outpatient psychiatrists in the nineteen eighties. He practiced psycho dynamic psychotherapy and mixed in medications when appropriate but those appropriate times were few there. Were anti psychotics for schizophrenia. There was lithium for bipolar disorder but only severe depressions received antidepressants because the side effects were too much for most people with neurotic anxiety to tolerate that left one class of medication for the millions of people with generalized anxiety and mild depressions the benzodiazepines and these were starting to get a bad rap. When they first came out in nineteen sixty the benzodiazepines were not thought to cause tolerance or abuse except in very rare cases. The original prescribing information listed those problems as possible. But not proven that started to change in the late nineteen seventies and by the early nineteen eighties. The psychiatric profession had reached a unanimous agreement that these benzodiazepines were addictive. The public was catching onto around one. In ten people had taken a benzodiazepine in the past decade and the problem with addiction and withdrawal was playing out in the movie theaters in the film. I'm running as fast as i can. And in the testimony of celebrities like stevie nicks and elizabeth taylor psychiatrist for easy to jump off this ship and prozac arrived just at the right time. They started prescribing them to people with mild depression and then to people who didn't even meet the criteria for depression at all. But who's anxious avoidance neurotic personality traits tended to improve when they took the sri. And that's when. Peter kramer took notice personality disturbances that would normally take years of psychotherapy to work through. Were relieved within weeks on the. Sri he wrote these cases up in a book listening to prozac which interspersed the fascinating clinical histories with scientific pearls on serotonin taken from the bench side world of animal research. Dr kramer's book took off. His patients reached for something to help them understand this brave new world they were prescribed into and it soon became the second psychiatric book to reach number one on the bestseller list. The first sigmund freud's the psychopathology of everyday life dada. Carlson died in two thousand eighteen at the age of ninety five. But he stayed on the cutting edge of psychopharmacology right to the end. What people have been say about me is what caused some did up till about. Maybe five years ago was okay. But what he's do he's doing now is no good. I always i always strongly. I always involved in something where people feel very doubtful. So i would say if that would change if people then would cabin say. Tell me i think what you're doing now is fine. Then i would feel very uneasy then. I am probably not doing anything really worthwhile. Because if you do something that's worthwhile then it something that people don't go to believe him because thinking is not yet when he went to stockholm in two thousand to receive the nobel prize he suggested the psychopharmacology needed to move in a different direction than the path. His early discoveries had taken down his early word helped uncover the three mono means that were critical to psychiatric disorders dopamine norepinephrine and serotonin and the pharmaceutical industry searched for drugs with a high potency to block. The reuptake are actions. These chemicals data. Carlson can't believe that was a mistake. And then instead of potent blockade what was needed was greater. Balance drugs that stabilize these chemicals raising the levels when they're too low and lowering them when they're too high. He applied that to schizophrenia. Developing partial agonists at dopamine detour receptors the serotonin five h two receptors developed several compounds with those properties and he's research suggested they could improve both positive and negative centers of schizophrenia. With a low risk of parkinson ism antarctic disconnect by of this discovery in blocking dopamine receptors. That was no very marked improvement. In the treatment of psychosis the new molecules didn't do much more than what dope promos in had done before we have in our research group carcasses To explain why this is so. True that in schizophrenia. You do have an allegation of dopaminergic tone. But we believe that this is an episodic phenomenon. It's mainly during the psychotic episode that you have these elevation between episodes wham. One has to go on treating patients in order to prevent relapse. If you treat with the anti-doping drugs you reduce dopaminergic function. And it's very difficult for people to live without a functional dopamine because that is essential for the reward system info cognition and so forth. So why is the patient. Louis how this nation get rid of the has the nations and so forth they suffer from a tremendous loss of function. We think we have the solution to this problem. The what is wrong here is to. You is a blocking agent. What one should aim at is to start out from the hypothesis that actually we are dealing with fluctuations in dopaminergic function unanimous votes instability of dopaminergic function. So what we need is a stabilize of dopaminergic function. And we have such molecules. The drugs that dr colson worked on at the end of his life have not come to market but the idea is led to the novel in psychotics pin events or in new placid perron cap lyda in the past year. We've covered both of them. In our pages i for their antipsychotic effects for which there fda approved and later for their mood benefits which are just starting to come out in the trials. You can read more about those new antipsychotic online at the carlisle report dot com along with this month's feature how to select a necessary but now it's time for the word of the day moat beam mechanism the mot- beam mechanism is a type of cognitive bias. Where people seem negative qualities in others. They are unable to see in themselves. The origin of the beam comes from a parable. Jesus gave in the sermon on the mount. Judge not that ye not be judged and why beholdest thou the moat that is in my brothers. I but consider a snot the beam that is in thine own i. The term was originally used by gustaf e kaiser a social psychologist who wrote about prejudices and social misperceptions both on an individual level as well as between nations in the nineteen forties it. Kaiser's ideas were similar to freud's concept of projection as a defense mechanism except that it closer was trying to move it more into the realm of cognitive psychology where there was no concept of interest psychic conflict in the unconscious depths in it kaiser's model of mental life. The mine was a social cultural oregon. That could be understood through four fundamental questions. What we actually are what we think we are. What other people think we are and what we assume other people think we are. China's next week part tune out win two series on psychotherapy psychotherapy side effects an interview with michel lindon. And if you like this podcast share with a friend. It's easy you just hit that share button with an upward our and text it to your colleague appreciate the thought of these disconnected times and will help us keep operating the way. We always have three of commercial support. Have you been able to cure your own and dark sites throughout life without any antidepressants. Oh yes. I have never taken any additive present. I have never failed like a needy one item. Because i always had envisioned something to look forward to today people. Are you know they're burned out. How have you been able to do so much during all years. Not cross that line. You must to the vision. New must have something that you'll find so enormously important to be able to find out to be able to achieve. That would be needed to keep your jelly. If you don't have done then serious condition that was arvid carson. Speaking with daniel sworn in two thousand seventeen a year before his death across his comments on the new generation of dopamine antagonists were taken from his nobel laureate lecture in two thousand and other audio supply by society of neuroscience youtube channel interviews are opening music was performed by the fab four and is the only song by the beatles. That's in the public domain.

depression Jake antidepressant chris sake carlisle psychiatry kelly newsom arvid carlson dr carlson schizophrenia administration of reserve Dr colston walter burke meyer Dr burke meyer Dr carlson eric kandel fda Doku parkinson repin ephron delta carlsson typic
Cattle Current PodcastDec. 16, 2019

Cattle Current Market Update with Wes Ishmael

07:16 min | 2 years ago

Cattle Current PodcastDec. 16, 2019

"Kandel features charged higher on Friday elem. I see forecast higher calf prices next year coming up on your market update with West. How did all this is West Ishmael with your current market update for the late weekend and Monday morning? The Sixteenth December Negotiate Caspit Cal. Trade continued to develop through Friday Friday afternoon at no worse than steady money according to USDA report early live sales were at one hundred nineteen dollars one hundred weight in Nebraska and at one on twenty in the western corn belt early dress sales were studying the western corn belt at one eighty eight and as much as six dollars higher Nebraska at one hundred eighty eight two hundred ninety four dollars earlier in the week live. Sales were steady in Kansas one. Nineteen the Texas cattle feeders. Association reported its members selling steer steady at one nineteen and heifers a dollar higher at nearly one nineteen cattle futures closed sharply higher Friday buoyed by strong demand. ANTICIPATION OF SNUG FIT cal. Supplies heading into the next quarter live. Cattle futures closed in average of adorn forty two cents higher across a range of seventy eighty cents to two dollars and forty five cents higher week to week live. Cattle futures closed average of a dollar and ninety four cents higher across a range of one forty two to two to eighty five higher trader optimism. On Friday was likely heightened by the phase one trade agreement between the US and China according to a statement can US trade representative on Friday the US and China reached an historic enforceable agreement on a phase. One trade deal that require structural reforms arms and other changes to China's economic and trade regime in the areas of intellectual property technology transfer agriculture financial services and and currency and foreign exchange. The phase. One agreement also includes a commitment by China to make substantial additional purchases of US goods and services. This is in the coming years importantly according to the statement. The agreement establishes a strong dispute resolution system that ensures prompt ineffective implementation tation and enforcement Dan Hallstrom president and CEO of the US Meat Export Federation. Says China is the world's largest and fastest growing growing destination for imported red meat but he explains US pork and beef products have been subject to burn some retaliatory duties in China since two thousand eighteen gene. which has made it very difficult for the? US Industry to capitalize on China's rapidly growing need for high quality proteins even before then he points points out non-tariff barriers were a major persistent obstacle for us. Exporters who are looking to expand their business in China Wholesale Beef Valley's continued searching for a seasonal bottom choice. Boxed beef cut out value is eight dollars and twenty seven cents lower week to week on Friday at two hundred sixteen dollars and twenty nine cents one hundred eight select was three dollars six cents lower at two. Oh four twenty four. However Andrew P griffith agricultural your cultural economist of the University of Tennessee? Points out wholesale beef prices in November. Were seven point seven percent higher than the previous month. Further in his weekly weekly market comments. Griffith explains the all fresh beef retail value of five dollars and eighty cents. A pound and November was four and a half cents higher than the previous month and nearly twelve cents higher the November a year ago. He asked that the choice. Beef retail value for November. Six dollars and sixty cents a pound which was seventeen cents since more than in October and fifteen cents more than a year earlier although Griffith doubts the aforementioned U. S. China trade deal will mean much extra beat going directly way to China. He says it could help clear. Some domestic pork and poultry stocks which would be supportive steer earn Hafer cavs and feeder sold steady. Two three dollars one hundred weight lower last week. According to the Agricultural Marketing Service AMS analysts say demand was moderate to good in most regions as cattle feeders look to fill orders to take advantage of the market reflected in the twenty twenty. CME Life Cal contracts. They add that with the holidays and the end of the year fast approaching many auction. Barns had heavy runs as marketing opportunities will be limited after next week feeder cattle futures close an average of two dollars nine cents higher on Friday across a range of one forty two to three twelve higher week to week. They're an average the three dollars and sixty cents higher across a range of one forty five higher toward the back of the board to four dollars and fifty seven cents higher near the front more on cap price expecting momentarily major. US financial indices edged higher on Friday more subdued than might the expected given the affirmation phase one trade agreement between the US and China. But then there weren't many details to go along with the announcement. The Dow Jones Jones Industrial Average closed three points higher the S. and P. Five hundred closed fractionally higher and the Nasdaq was up seventeen point in a smaller forecast at spring. Born twenty twenty calf crop and a normal summer growing season sets the stage for next year's bolwing follwing cats to price near slightly above those of two thousand seventeen say analysts with the Livestock Marketing Information Center in the latest lifestock. Doc Monitor. They say that expectation is based on low feet costs and fit cattle prices projected to be one to four percent higher year-over-year Scranton Anthony by another year of declined domestic per capita beef supplies as beef imports decrease and beef exports increase other than the ever-present the present risk of drought alum. I see analysts. Believe the primary potential head went to the price forecast would come with faltering trade relative to the growing total red meat and poultry production in this country. They point out. US per capita supply a ball red meat and poultry was record large this year and will be significantly larger next next year even assuming exports of beef pork chicken and Turkey all establish new all time high That's your calendar market up date for the late weekend and Monday morning the sixteenth of December you can find more at www dot cal current dot com. Aw thanks for listening

US China China Wholesale Beef Valley Andrew P griffith US Meat Export Federation Nebraska USDA Kandel Kansas Texas U. S. China Scranton Agricultural Marketing Service Dan Hallstrom Turkey Livestock Marketing Informatio
What if a pirate and a detective went on a mission together?

What If World - Stories for Kids

23:50 min | 1 year ago

What if a pirate and a detective went on a mission together?

"Hey there folks in. Welcome back to what if world the show where your questions and ideas inspire off the cuff stories. I Mr Eric, your host, and today we've got a question from Samuel. Mr Eric Kandel I'm Samuel and I'm almost eleven in Chicago Illinois I like karate and ducks, and my question is what if Alabaster Zero and Petey the pirate refers to go on a mission together. Thanks. Bye. Man I can't believe I've never paired up alabaster NPD. Also got a patron question from Zoe and it is about Alabaster zero but I'll tell you about it at the end but I I'll tell you about a thanks Jeff Cat Eve got two sisters, Elsie and Ada she loves playing with her friends lego coloring and going for drives to listen to what? Very cool. Also meowing out. Stewart age eight and as brother Malcolm, they love their three crazy cats, Nori highgate, and whiplash. AK- Snow High Pika Snow, you've never done a shout out before peace no up snow. Snow. Yes, I'll translate EP KAZ known because no peace. No shouting out Alice Jones Lynn from Cork Ireland and her cat people, which means squeaky because he meows allot. Let's not forget Caleb Age seven and his sister Lenny. Oh my friend Dylan she asked for me specifically to give her a shoutout. Well, thank you Dylan Alenia Caleb Alex, Jones Malcolm Stewart, Ada Elsie, and even. Now, let's find out what if Alabama zero and Petey the pirate were forced to go on a mission together plus our patron question from Zoe that will hear about later we'll start your story right after a quick break. Alabaster zero was so excited to be walking down the dock that led him to between the pirates ship. If you didn't know knitting is one of Alabama's favorite pastimes and between is his teacher as well as his friend Alabaster stood at the base of the plank that would lead him onto between is ship he kept his hand over his mouth and shouted in a very authoritarian voice. Barratt down your nitty. Income with your hands up so I can measure you for sweater. Who should appear at the other end of the gangplank? Well, you know it was beating the pirate years addictive zero eight. Think we must have gotten their calendars. Mr The by ridder. Grandma home. She's that my grandma. Practically raised me. So if anything's more of a maternal figure oh sorry PD sorry, Alabaster. I'm afraid this is all my fault adrenal walked up to the deck of her ship with a twinkle in her I I'd seems I agreed to fix up PD ships today and totally forgot that he had I had plans to knit alabaster. It's Tuesday all petty made a mess things they. Will it's really master, but a was here, I and my ship really does need fixing or that's true and it'll take me all day. So I just had haughtily spontaneous idea said between AH slyly, why don't you two boys spend the D. Together, Dude. Lee. Spun dangerous between you've never mixed up a new life hall. First Time for everything. No had listen I absolutely love being your friend slash mother slash grandmother figures but don't you think it'd be nice to have a friend your own age. I have plenty of friends. It just is very leases a few hundred years old and Tabby Lula's only twos. And I'm friends with potty the pirate if. I was the last time you and party out the oilers. Hundred seventy four episodes ago give her take. Clearly you who have all the fringe a need. To Bad said between reaching for the inside pocket of her long coat with just a hint of a smile I had a very important mission to send you to on pate just have to end another pirate and detective I can trust. These new detective. Where the then me you're the only other pirate for miles around. If if you wouldn't mind a demand you give is this mission I'm insulted, even think to give it to another pirate and addictive four K. if you to insist and between pulled out to non below a thick tea colored paper, the contents of this letter are very special and I need you to to find someplace safe to keep it someplace far from here. Maybe even as far as all say Alabaster Zeros how. At what leave me ship behind I think she's awesome than PD, there's no place safer in my fortress detected to et is definitely not a word master that's dedicted dude the best to you. Alabaster in PD, we're walking down a long and winding path that would lead them back to the detectives house. The gene is pretty smart buried. If she put us on this mission together, she must think we've got at least something in common way. We both insisted on holding this envelope and indeed the two of them were walking side by side each with a hand on a different end of the envelope. And that you're the gifts. We must both like pirating. The idea of Barrett's but I think stealing is bad. Are Not pirates steel. That's kind of with the verb actually means will detectives did tack us? We do your yard would joe. When I also very interested in real estate real estate. Me Other nickname is Peter that real tear. More interested in gets than. Realistic. Cats. Share Lee you mean Dr. Doug's working around the force. They rounded a bend feeling a little crestfallen wondering if this whole day was gonna be a big mistake Okeyo. After pirating in detecting real estate in cats, let's each say what? Next favorite thing in zero guess. But it's really Tuesday. Again. Equally fine. Let's say our next tool. Favorite things on the come to three to zero rate. When we see the word three, who is there like a? That maybe the three would be silent and implied and we'd say it then. But then we're only getting two year rate. It's count to three out loud and then instead of saying four will say are two favorite things. If we were meant to be friends this wouldn't be so heard pair something we agree on one two. Three Karate's. He's Accent. Karate. Hooks new. So, good. A karate I can. Be In have but from the thin side, you know who you end up with like. skinnier sheets bieber narrow to believe. You're you're should believe it did it went with toilet paper by jumped it right out of the air, and then there was a whole other piece of DP we have his thick you're talking about to apply. Well, then prove it make this envelope in debt to envelopes said Petey the pirate pulling between envelope away and tossing it into the air easy alabaster quickly shifted into a guarding stance and struck the falling envelope with a swift shop. It seemed to burst open and something green flew out and started floating away on the wind. Grab it grab it Alabaster PD ran after the floating green thing snatching, grabbing, kicking, holing, falling over each other trying to get it. Get you. Said Alabaster he inspected the green paper that an fallen out of the envelope. Beatty, you're not gonNA believe this. Why wouldn't they believe it? I'm looking at it right now. I I saw it while we were trying to grab it to the air in its own mind. You are. We both founded the check the poop in midday Derek Jeter who? Wanted. Well, when you think about it, it's actually a is remember. Yar It between is our mission was protected. We failed our mission would be an alabaster carefully slipped the hundred dollar bill into the inside pocket of his dungarees jacket the content of the below perceive that was a mission. Your right Alabaster and I know just how to keep that hundred dollar bills. Safe Pirate Stale. PD. Was merrily burying the hundred dollar bill and Alabaster Zeros backyard. Pity we lake deposited in the bank for then it'd be safe and collecting interest or silly lad lover buried money collection dressed faster than any other kind of money. And he patted down the last shovel full of dirt see aren't interested more already. So us. Houses, but you have no idea how money works. Just then a little green shoot sprouted. From where they just buried the money was at. The little green shoot sprouted and grew and branched out pity is normally when you things you. Know this is my first time bury. Treasure could be. And suddenly a mighty tree was growing up right beneath their feet. Its trunk was so thick and its branches were so wide that it caught up PD alabaster who found themselves clinging for dear life. Earned my burying badged. Just trying to rescue alarm sue breast now that I'm sticking three hundred feet off the ground. Aw thank goodness because frankly I'm terrified. All right. Listen I'M GONNA, use my karate on this trip to jump it in half, and then after the top half foes will slide to safety. Why don't know Alabaster with this grew from what was in the envelope so I think we've got to keep this trees say. Tree an alabaster gave with little film with the bottom of his fist. Leaves fell down on the two of them but they didn't feel quite like normal leaves you've heard. Star. In Alabaster held up one of the rectangular leaves at a lot of symbols on it and a number as well. One hundred. This is much. Faster I. Think this is. A minute. With People in the World Uh. Thank you for including me this time I mean that bill should have been gone boost. Absolutely impossible. Not Necessary. Did you see necessary? Actually getting a little hungry me to do you have any any snacks on you have plenty of snacks in my pack which I left right on the ground when I pulled the Chevrolet. Commission. We took in this tree Hi you you're stuck up here said a little brown duck lending lightly on the branch beside them you quite the detective responded Alabaster You're too big can't really get you down. Your could fly me up a couple of tuna fish sandwiches from me pack. Tony. Aw Sure I dove down toward the ground far below they were gone for a little while and Alabaster stomach grumbled. Dick Knuckle and back this whole missions been a disaster. What good all the money in the world if you get better did. People care about Montezuma. Do dead had plenty of money but I still had it pretty. All really trae sleep it on the deck of a ship for your whole childhood Eytan Barnacle sandwiches with hard tech bread. Never knew everyone in our crew worked day and night trying to make ends meet all what we would have done a money tree home. Sorry I. Guess I've had people shouldn't worry about money because. I've never had to I accept your apology. But that ducks. An apology do if he's not back with our tuna sandwiches soon and there was the duck right on cue if. You. Know I looked all that pack and I only found six tuna fish sandwiches. Made six further road jess like poetry touch me well, Gee, you're the year to make seven see Dick. My Name's far fall 'cause I wear this bowtie on because I like diving if our file would you mind fallen fire in England, snatching up some of those sandwiches I already did. Eight them I'm very full by the way. Thank you very much. Firefighter I would be you any amount of money just one bite of sandwich not so generous of you. Okay. I think we're going to change our mind on that. Oh never mind my friend Alabaster. His Dad's were so rich that he never had to eat a half digested tuna fish sandwich cuffed up from ducks belly la Di da Hey, must ahead it made it wasn't like that I mean one of my dad was a doctor but. The other was a detective. There that's about five or six sandwiches should be plenty for you to fire. You've given me an idea. Good I wanted to gather all the ducks have ever known okay. In far fall flew off again you don't think we should be putting our trust is narrow The one thing you can always trust a duck to do follow their belly, and with that PD, picked up the pile of partially puked up sandwiches and spread them around the nearby branches rant rant back. Soon. Of Ducks had gathered in the tree around them. Hey. Told you the ducks at? Gum. Eating. All this in witches majors again, fellow ducks euro very much like pirates and that Gillette nothing go to waste and that you're willing to go to great lengths decade our family fed. Rank are our car and I want you to take all the loose leaves from this money tree and fly him off to the Far Carter's of what? and. Why would we do that pastor was wondering that too but then he had an idea for. When you knew we had this tuna and this tree which ducks tell about it. I started by telling the hungriest ones. Exactly. We help each other out that would gained people do, and now you ducks can fly money to anyone in the world who needs it and also get to keep some money for ourselves of course. Eaten take. Care, yourself to the ducks quacked among themselves from minute right? Our. And our fall finally spoke up, they want to remind you that you are still stuck in a tree. Mission was to get out of this three. Diving our mission was to help these ducks and now they've ducks will take your box, Hongo help other people, and maybe those people will help other people and so on and so forth until someone helps us out of this tree. WHO CERIGA week until some theoretical person who's been helped by these buck ducks in their ducks decides to go looking for two people. They don't know are stuck in a tree. Oh, you are quite the detective Alabaster. Okay I love the bucks don't get me wrong but I'm GONNA help us out a little bit with the less better. This plan an alabaster pulled out his detective pen pad roanoke and handed it to far fall with a whisper. said the duck and flew. Toward the horizon so master I figure will need to have a few sleepovers in this tree before someone comes in and saves us. Okay and seeing the tuna fish sandwiches are all gone will have to survive off of that fancy syrup that we set out of this money tree does you me but I don't think that's going to happen be. I did I get? We've just been trapped in a tree together it doesn't make us friends or being. Who I mean it's not going to happen. In between the Byran and there, she flew captaining PD's pirate ship now that she'd finished fixing it up. Very but Drina you save. Or Dear, you didn't happen to open that envelope. Did you really lungs? Involving Karate. And regurgitated tuna fish sandwiches. The pirate extended a rope from the flying rocket pirate ship House NBD in Alabaster took turns climbing up. It sounded like you too had quite the day. He get that with Trina. Leaving us. Here, mean it alabaster good at do buddy. We've gotTa make sure we Jiro this money equitably all of cars otherwise will ruin what if world with crippling inflation so you don't understand banks but you do understand the many very causes and effects of inflation. To learn more than I, bargained before. Don't get it the end. So he and Samuel I. Hope You enjoyed Your Story Zoe is question if you hadn't guessed was what if Alabama zero found one hundred dollars and buried it and grew a money tree folks at home we've set up our new threatless page. There's all kinds of merch from t shirts to masks, mugs, pillows, socks, shoes, stickers, magnets you name it featuring some of your favorite. What if world characters and you can check it out at world dot threatless dot com, and if you'd. Like to hear what if world ad free getting your episodes released a day early and getting a higher chance of having your questions answered check us out at Patriotair Dot com slash. What if world I'd like to thank Karen Kief my co Creator Craig Martinson for our theme song and a strong Coo for all our new artwork and all you kids at home who know that while money can't buy everything it's still important that everyone has enough so they can stay healthy and safe. Until. We meet. Again keep wondering. Sales. Era.

Alabaster Zeros Petey Samuel Alabama Alabaster Zoe Lee Dick Knuckle Jones Malcolm Stewart Ada Elsie Karate Goede Anka Dot FM Mr Eric Kandel Mayow Dylan Alenia Mr Eric Napa NPD Ganz
Targeting Solid Tumors with Oncolytic Viruses

The Bio Report

38:12 min | 1 hr ago

Targeting Solid Tumors with Oncolytic Viruses

"Have you heard what's happening in Calgary Canada? Home to some of the world's best researchers and innovators in life sciences, Calgary is advancing healthcare solutions to solve global challenges. Calgary's dedication to the life sciences sector is evident in its labs, hospitals, schools, and the minds of its people, with its top institutions producing internationally recognized research and more than 110 life science companies backed by a highly skilled pool of talent, the life sciences sector is accelerating innovation in Calgary. If your bright mind or a bright company Calgary is just the place for you. Take a closer look at Calgary life sciences dot com. Before we get started this week, I wanted to tell you about the digital library from deep dive. How much time does your team spend looking for research papers? Google, PubMed, social media. There's got to be a better way. You can now search a reference database of 100 million scientific papers and read the full text of 20 million articles annotate them and share with colleagues. It's the smarter way to do research. Here's the best part. If you're like me and been frustrated by not being able to access articles you find because they're behind a paywall, I've got good news, with deep dive, you get one stop affordable research. If you're a listener of the bio report, you can try the enterprise version of the service for free for one month. Go to deep dive dot com forward slash podcast and enter the code bio report that's deep dive DEP DY VE dot com forward slash podcast and the code is by a report one word all caps. I'm Daniel Levine and this is the bio report. As the treatment of cancers has moved toward an increasing emphasis on the role of the immune system complained fighting tumors, a range of new ways to enlist and train the immune system have emerged. Candle Therapeutics is developing oncolytic viral immunotherapies which it says combines both anti tumor activity while also stimulating the immune system. We spoke to Paul Peter tack, president and CEO of kandel, about oncolytic viral immunotherapies, how they work, and why they may be able to bring benefits to the treatment of a range of solid tumors. Paul Peter, thanks for joining us. It's a great pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. We're going to talk about Ankara viral immunotherapies and how these therapies are developing combined killing tumor cells while stimulating the immune system. Before we get into what Kendall is doing though, I'd like to start with how cannell came about. It was actually known as advantage and became Kendall in December 2020 after acquiring. What was advantage doing and how did the combination change the company? Yeah, so it comes out to the few takes is to integration of three components first. That's very HSV platform came from. The in license and HSV gene constructs that we call can very well ten, which is in development in recurrent hydrant glioma. And investigational medicine that we have most of our experience can 24 and 9, which is an adenoviral gene called developed by advantage. We put all of this together and you make a new executive team join the company. And this became known as conveyor pure Dix at the end of last year. You had worked at GSK previously you entered the venture capital world. What a attracted you to take the CEO spotted kandel. What did you find compelling about the opportunity? Yeah, I moved primarily defined myself as a physician physician a physician scientist who has always tried to develop better treatments for patients who need were in unmet need. As a treating physician as an academic as the chief immunology officer and the global head of development Texas Smith Kline, he is K and also as a venture partner at flagship pioneering. I learned quite a lot about creating discovery platform companies. A joint called delta V takes because I saw two molecules in the clinic that has the potential to be transformational for patients with multiple solid tumors, including high vehicle, a very difficult to create form of brain cancer. Prostate cancer, in particular, early localized, non metastatic disease, there are no new treatments have been approved in the last ten, 15 years. Pancreatic cancer, of course, also very difficult to treat disease. And no small cell lung cancer in particular patients who exhibit an in other countries problems to the currently available first time treatment. So I saw this potential and I thought that my background in terms of knowing how to develop a medicine, no involved patients need knowing how to lead an organization, whether a small or large, I may have an impact in this company. Gandalf's working to develop oncolytic viral immunotherapies, the first of this class of therapies was approved by the FDA in 2015. But this is still a relatively new area. What are these therapies and how do they work? Yeah, this is still relatively new. And it takes time before a new modality. Has shown to be important in terms of really providing benefit to patients. Just think about car T cells. It took decades before this best event from idea into an approved medicine. And this is true for many other therapies as well. Think of biological antibodies. It took many, many years before it became clear that this was a very strong modality. And I would also consider the viral immunotherapies as a modality. So it is true that the first was approved in 2015, which gives initial proof of concept for the whole approach here. But the question really is, what does the oncolytic viral immunotherapy look like? What is the virus for this to promoter for this chance if any? What is the indication where you develop it? But is your vision for the medicine? I have all the support of your latest clinical trials to answer the question. So it's all about that. So we've seen initial proof of concept concept for D vec or emerge, and it was approved for a treatment of melanoma. Our approach is quite different virus, different cells seen et cetera. And we have initial proof of activity not only in rodents, Mars and rats, but also across multiple solid tumors in patients. You genetically modify the viruses you use. What exactly do you do and what's the effect of this alteration? Yeah, and I'll see your question for three different approaches. The lead compound that's in the clinic is called can 24 O 9. This is where we have most of our experience. We are in phase three in early localized non medical clustered cancer. We expect to be in phase three as well in Hydra glioma in the first part of next year. It multiplies the clinical trials as well. So what does cancer 24 9 look like? It's a known replicating so replication, deficient. Adenovirus, including an enzyme called timing kinase. Be injected into the tumor in indications where this is straightforward and feasible. And the normal clinical practice. So that leads to local thymidine kinase expression, local enzyme expression. And then they give the patient an oral small molecule. So these are templates. That are taken for two weeks. And the name is valas. And this has been developed effect by GSK, many years ago. And it has been approved for the treatment of viral infections, HSV infections. And in fact, it's all better. It's generic. So the cost are quite low and we know a lot about this medicine. So we give this to the patient, not because of its antiviral properties. That because we know that under the influence of the local expression of time in kinase, after infrastructure injection of can 24 9, while a social field is converted into a toxic compound. Toxic metabolite. It is a nucleotide analog. And that leads to cell death at the side of the tumor. It leads to a highly immunogenic form of cell death. So it activates the immune system. At the same time, because we use an adenoviral to deliver the gene to the size of the tumor. We give a very strong pro inflammatory signal because that's what adenovirus is doing. In other words, we create the optimal conditions. So immunize the patient against the patient's own variety of cancer, new antigens. That are released as a result of this highly immunogenic cell death. In other words, the immunosuppression begins to inject the tumor and inject it distance metastases. So this leads to a so called abscopal effect. We immunize the patient against the patient's own tumor injected locally and the distant and ejected metastasis. Second, a second medicine that we develop in the clinic is called camp 31 ten. This has been engineered to result in a replication competent HSV herpes simplex virus. It's actually in contrast to teeth that were energetic that we spoke about earlier. It has been approved for a treatment of melanoma actually has an active so called 34.5 G a T vec has deleted the scene because of the potential safety issues. However, we have reinserted this year because it is also associated with activity against the tumor cells. But these normal data controlled way to molecular engineering. So we reinserted vulnerable for the 34.5 G under the control of the so called nesting promoter. And nesting is absent from the healthy adult brain, but it is strongly upregulated and the high blood cancer cells, in other words, we have created a tumor specific application competence, HSV gene called specifically target and attack the cancer cells in the brain after injection. And then third, we have created the new discovery platform. Based on HSV, which allows us to insert up to 5 genes. Into the virus to modulate the tumor microenvironment by design. So we can do this again and again. And now I'm speaking about our discovery platform, which is still very much a stealth mode. That is this approach compared to what we see with something like a CAR-T cell therapy. I mean, it seems like a much more multimodal approach. And the beauty of our approach is that it's off the shelf. So it is much easier to produce. The cost of goods are much lower. The complexity of the whole chain to get it from the left to the patient is much more straightforward. And basically we leverage the patient's own immune system. So we don't modulate the T cells, XV four outside the body of the patient. Now we inject an engineered virus to activate the immune system of the patient to recognize the tumor neo antigens, all variety of these entities. And therefore, this is a patient specific. It is very straightforward. How we can produce this and how we can deliver this. Leading to long-term responses. So the best way to think about it is the use of oncolytic viral immunotherapy to immunize the patient, like a vaccination. Not against von Neumann, because there is the risk that it leads to tumor cells, evading the immune system. Have you seen such examples in the past? As he basically immunized against the whole variety, which makes it very difficult for the tumor to escape from the recognition and the killing process. By the T cells and these are CD8 positive sides of toxic tumor infiltrating lymphocytes. If we teach how to recognize and how to kill the tumor itself of the patient. And is the expectation that these would be used as monotherapy or in combination with other therapies. So we've shown that we can use content before 9. As monos therapy, we've shown single agent activities, single agent meaning here. The combination of ten 24 9 injection and the project validate of air. It's shown that across multiple solid tumors. So this is safe and effective. But often you will need multiple modalities. To really reduce disease remission absence of disease and cure in the patient. So we've also shown that we can combine cancer before 9. And it's important to note that this has been well tolerated. And quite safe, as we've shown in many hundreds of patients, we recently presented this data at a scientific meeting that allows us to combine it with chemotherapy, better problem, or video therapy. Or surgery, as we do in prostate cancer as well as in the treatment of high grade glioma, and also with the combination with immune checkpoint inhibitors like PD-1 inhibitors or PD-L1 inhibitor. So it will use it in the best way depending on the indication and the setting. That we have already quite a lot of experience combining it different forms of standard of care. You're developing therapies for a number of different tumor types as specific or treatments tailored to tumor types and to what extent are you able to engineer a therapy to treat a specific type of tumor? Yeah, we've shown initial proof of activity in mouse models, sometimes the involving models. But also in patients in pancreatic cancer. In high grade glioma, most of these patients have glioblastoma, which is a very difficult teeth form of playing cancer. In prostate cancer, actually in early disease, but also in later stages of disease. At this moment, we have to solve it pursuing early this is. Pancreatic cancer. But you also have that in other indications like PDF, I agree on preventing no blood stoma, the tumor of the eye in children complicated by micro metastases. In the vitreous compartment, these are called tumor cells, have even its proof of activity in mesothelioma and other forms of pleural cancers. So we believe that this may work in multiple solid tumors. So we've chosen the indications that we are pursuing at this time. Based on the scientific rationale, the medical unmet need, the developer ability and also the commercial opportunity. But we do not believe that the efficacy will be limited to the indications that are just described. Because basically the mobilized to see the 8 positive T cells of the patient against this or her own tumor. So there's a real opportunity to expand at the right time. And to other indications as well. So this is all about content before and the other viral gene construct. So let's now focus on ten 31 ten. The replication competent HSV will be simplex virus gene calls that we test in high blood. So this is under the control of nesting. And we found that nestin is not only over expressed by tumor cells in high grade glioma. But also in other forms of cancer, even in tumors outside the brain. Which opens up the possibility to explode the gan into other indications that are characterized by nesting overexpression. So precision medicine approach where we can also have a diagnostic biomarker, may be not necessarily expression. So we can optimize the benefit risk for patients. We've cut think of cancers in terms of their underlying molecular drivers is your therapy agnostic to the mutations driving tumor growth? We do not know at this time whether the underlying mutations like the number of mutations in baseline is a predictor of the efficacy of treatment. This has been shown actually for immune checkpoint inhibitors. But this is a fundamentally different approach. You will check finds in here but this will induce a very strong adaptive im response. It is mainly no specific. But we do as we create or induce initially an innate immune response. Which is followed by a specific adaptive immune to mediated by CD8 positive T cells. We don't know at this time whether the number of mutations will be predicted that he could use as a diagnostic biomarker. We're doing very extensive biomarker research at this moment. So we'll get the answer in the future. At this time, we treat all commerce in our trials with cancer four 9. And again, if we can be focused on being driven by nested overexpression in the future. And how are the therapies deliberate and delivery pose any challenge to the range of cancers you can treat? Yeah, at this moment, we focus completely on insta tumor delivery. So we inject this into the children. And the reason is that this is the proof and way to immunize the patient. If you just think about vaccination against COVID-19, for example, you don't get this vaccination by an intravenous injection. The injected into the deltoid muscle tissue. That's how we typically immunize. So this is what we have chosen to do for indication that is straightforward to do this. For example, in the prostate, the treating physician is a urologist. These are surgeons that would need us in the process every day. Because they take biopsies to establish a diagnosis. And the U.S. relatively large needles to take these biopsies 18 Kate needles. For the injection of ten 24 9 into the cluster head. The only need 22 gates needle, which is the same as the needle used for COVID-19 vaccination. So super thin, the whole proceed that takes about 15 minutes. We know that the urologist liked doing procedures. That's why they became certain I guess. They will be reimbursed for this procedure if you have an approved product here. And we've also measured the patient experience and we will soon present this data showing that generally this is very well tolerated by patients. So we know that for cancer four 9 injection into the prostate. This is well tolerated and aligned to the clinical practice. So let's now discuss the procedure in first line treatment of highlight glioma. Here it's combined with neurosurgery. So we use this in combination with optimal standard of care. So the neurosurgeon will be moved to tumor, a high grade deal. That's a difficult part. And then in the same procedure, the neurosurgeon will infiltrate the wounded bed. It can 24 9, which is the easy part of the procedure. And the reason is that we know that in nearly all cases that are remaining tumor cells in the moon bed on the microscopical level. This is exactly why the prognosis is so poor in this condition. And we use this actually again to immunize the patient to teach the immune cells that how to recognize these remaining cells. In non small cell lung cancer, for example, can fend the four 9 can be delivered during diagnostic bronchoscopy. So again, this is a Lorentz normal clinical practice. I know that some people think well that this sounds a kind of scary, right? You need a needle to inject this into a tumor. As a physician, there was treated patients for more than 35 years. I tell you that there's no place in the body that can not be reached in a relatively easy way with a needle. And every procedure that has shown benefit risk and cost effectiveness. And that is approved. We'll be implemented in clinical practice. Think of stem cell transplantation. Bone marrow transportation. Nobody would ask the question is that even feasible? These procedures are much much more difficult than just injecting and oncolytic viral immunotherapy into the tumor, as I just described. That's right. You're in late stage testing for prostate cancer. This is your lead indication for Cannes 24 O 9. What do you know about the efficacy from the studies that have been done to date? We've shown initial evidence of efficacy across multiple indications within prostate cancer. So we've done an open label clinical trial in the past. A follower to patients for many years for more than 5 years, median value. So we have a lot of experience, not only in patient numbers, but also in terms of long-term follow-up. And we looked at disease free survival. And we compared these patients with results in a meta analysis that was very carefully conducted to published open studies open label studies in the same period of time, so the same background medication with exactly the same standard of care as a very carefully matched this has been reviewed at the FDA in great detail. And it could show a significant improvement. In terms of the C three survival in low risk of that cancer and in intermediate risk for state cancer and in high risk prostate cancers are very consistent signal. If you look at the gold standard here, which is I'll do you see when you take biopsies and you analyze them under the microscope. They could show a significant improvement in all the patients all the patient groups who received can 24 9 on top of standard of care. Compared to standard of care alone. Also, when we looked at other biomarkers like soluble biomarkers that you can measure in the blood, the PHA level. So very consistent improvement across the patients who received content before that. So this is the most important because that's the indication we are currently pursuing. Because that's very big unmet need is everybody else seems to go after the late stage metastatic disease. But we actually do have data in the United States. For example, patients who were filled very thoroughly. Now we were able to show the effects of monotherapy if you just inject cancer four 9. These patients will progress enough to receive as part of previous very therapy to inject cancer for 9 into the prostate. You give the project valance affair. Nothing else. And you look at these soluble biomarkers that you can measure in the blood PSA levels. They could show a consistent decrease in most of the patients. After injection of cancer before 9. And in some patients, without giving any other therapy, we could show that this was sustained over many months. And as this is of course difficult to tweet form of cancer, they felt already standard of care. Over time, these a levels would cover up. Some of these patients we've been able to repeat the treatment. It can 24 9 alone. And could show again, decrease in cancer in PSA levels. So if proof of activity across multiple sub indications you've lost that cancer, which gave a lot of confidence that this may well work, the FDA agreed, which is important they agreed with how we did the meta analysis. And this basically underpins the special protocol assessment. There was a great at the FDA, which basically means that we are doing a potentially regulatory clinical trial that may lead to approval. They have the a has confirmed inviting that if we are able to achieve a primary endpoint that this will be an approved therapy in this indication. What's not about the safety of 24 O 9? How specific is the activity to tumors and have you seen any off target effects? We have a lot of data in more than 700 patients now. In the past, we have published in the phase two clinical trial, but we could not observe any serious adverse events after can 24 9. You basically saw minor adverse events in the radiotherapy group. It was not higher than what you would expect if patients would have received regular therapy alone. We did find minor flu like symptoms that lasted less than 24 hours. Which can be linked to the use of cancer four 9. This is no surprise. In fact, this is what you would like to see. Because you inject and adenovirus into the tumor. To create a pro inflammatory environment to convert a cold tumor into a hot tumor, from an immunological perspective. So this is very comparable to what you see after injection of let's say the AstraZeneca vaccine against COVID-19. Or the Janssen vaccine. These are also non replicated. The ethanol viral genes encoding certain gene in this case is the encoding for a spike protein for COVID-19 for the coronavirus, of course. But you see the same effects of the adenovirus. More recently, just a few weeks ago, doctor Scott agina, who is the principal investigator of all of our clinical trials, Professor of urology, presented the data at a scientific meeting. Based on the most large population of patients, basically reinforcing the same message. And this is generally safe and bell tolerated. Is there anything known about recurrence at this point? What have you seen in that regard? In terms of the currents after treatment? Yes. So in prostate cancer, we have some data which I alluded to. The patients were filled regular therapy, and we actually tested for proof of mechanism. The effects of cancer before 9 that we could show. Clear decrease in PSA levels in the majority of the patients, but over time, disease came back. He did not believe that he would cure the patients with monotherapy here. But we had long-lasting effects actually. Moving forward, it would think that in patients with intermediate to high risk prostate cancer. It would need to combine this with optimal standard of care. First question is, of course, it's actually a problem to solve here. So why wouldn't you just use optimal standard of care in early intermediate to high risk profits? Well, the reality is that prostate cancer in men is still the second most common cause of mortality of death due to cancer in the U.S. and the same pattern seen in other countries. There is still a huge has not been solved at all. And we try to optimize the effects. And for example, high grade glioma, the median overall survival at this moment with optimal standard of care, typically consisting of neurosurgery chemotherapy if indicated, radiotherapy is about 15 months. So it's very short actually right. Huge amount needs awful disease. So this is where we combine can 24 9 infiltrated in the wombat during neural surgery as I described. With optimal optimal standard of care, we've done a phase two a clinical trial. In the active treatment group of patients with glioblastoma patients have glioblastoma, where it was possible to do a total gross total resection in other words during surgery, it was possible to remove at least 95% of the tumor. We achieved the median overall survival of about 25 months. I think this is unheard of. But of course, we have not cure to patients. And nobody else has. But I'm not aware of any data that do more promising than this. So we see huge steps forward here, but we will assume that we would need to combine this with other forms of or generally accepted standard of care. And if all goes, well, what do you expect to file for approval? The expect to see the data for the phase three clinical trial in prostate cancer in 2024. So we would probably file for approval in 2025. Of course, it will do anything I can to accelerate timelines, but I can not promise that time is already tied. Because you need to follow up to show the separation between optimal standard of care compared to 24 9 plus optimal standard of care. But then I've also GSK I've been able to reduce timelines in phase two trust the company by 25%. So the pressure test everything and we are exploring whether we can bring anything forward. But these are the timelines that we have communicated externally. And as the expectation that you'd commercialize this on your own or would you be seeking a partner? We are aiming for success and believe that we could commercialize it ourselves. But of course, if there's one thing that pharmaceutical companies are really good at. It's late stage development and commercialization. So it's possible. Depending on what the deal could look like that we would partner or collaborate in a different way. But at this time, we are doing all the evidence generation to be able to commercialize this ourselves at some point with or without a partner. Candle completed a $72 million IPO earlier this year. It was a little less than you had originally set out to raise. How's that money being used and how far will it take you? So IPO is allowed us to deliver on our portfolio in prostate cancer. We will have the data in another clinical trial that I did not describe in low to intermediate risk fostered cancer. This is the so called active surveillance population where we evaluate effects of monotherapy of cancer four 9 this clinical trial will read out in 2023. And we'll get to this point based on the proceeds that we have secured. People have data in no small cell lung cancer we're doing a very exciting clinical trial. In patients who can basically group together as immune checkpoint inhibitor in adequate response, this is an open label clinical trial. And based on the kinetics of the immune response that we aim to endure expect to see the first clinical responses in the first half of 2022. So this is in the proceeds. We will have data in identity. And then we combine our treatment plus standard of care with opti fo the PDA to develop by BMS. In fact, we will have already data at the end of this year. This has been invited for an oral oral presentation at the scientific meeting at the snow society for neuro oncology. People have data in pancreatic cancer based on an ongoing phase two clinical trial, this will be initial efficacy data that we expect in 2010 to see. And we will have additional data in the current identical, with cancer development. Professor Nino kiok and the head of tuberculosis hospital one of the key leaders in the world in the field of high grade deal represented in an oral presentation with escort. The initial clinical efficacy data very soon with opposite additional, even a logical and biomarker data that took all very exciting. So this is all included. So we built deliver on this portfolio with many shots on goal to platforms to medicines in the clinic across multiple solid tumors. Now, we have created value in this company based on the newly for newly created discovery platform. Based on HSV, if we will, in a very sophisticated way, modulated tumor microenvironment. So this is early discovery. So that's the second big pillar. A third, we will continue to finalize our manufacturing capability in Needham not too far from Boston. So that we will be able to produce content 24 9 in cancer development and potentially other viruses. Ourselves at the right time. Paul Peter tech, president and CEO of kandel Therapeutics, Paul Peter. Thanks so much for your time today. Your husband, thank you very much. Thanks for listening. The buyer report is a production of the Levine media group to automatically download this podcast each week, subscribe to our RSS feed or through iTunes or other podcast manager. To join our mailing list, go to Levine media group dot com. We'd love to hear from you. If you want to drop us a line or interest in sponsoring this podcast, send email to Danny at Levine media group dot com, special thanks to jona Levine who composed our theme music and the John Levine collective, which performs it.

cancer Calgary tumors Paul Peter prostate cancer metastatic disease pancreatic cancer GSK Daniel Levine Candle Therapeutics flagship pioneering Kendall multiple solid tumors valas viral infections melanoma high blood cancer FDA tumor neo antigens tumor infiltrating lymphocytes
Quasar #28: Quantum Zone Episode #74

Capes & Lunatics: Sidekicks

56:30 min | 2 years ago

Quasar #28: Quantum Zone Episode #74

"This episode of capes and lunatic sidekicks brought to you by tweaked audio. Get awesome headphones tweaked audio dot com and use the coupon code southgate get thirty percent off for shipping in a lifetime warranty where he can get there through the link on our website southgate media group dot com. What about our quasar podcast. What about our quasar the whole birther berkman ever on energie transforming tournament weapons symbols of the station ongoing only needed. I need hardly hello and welcome back to the quantum zone episodes seventy four and there without being next tissue can have a nice big wraparound holographic cover. I feel will that zone aetna mass there somewhere but he got up for something. I'm here. I'm here. I didn't think you'd see you know. I just had a a less than oh. No i ed to get something surprise for the end of the show and published letter writer master of a letter column. That's right thank you address. Address withheld on request really. We're going to get there but <hes> yes. I know last episode. I think i promise everyone ray would be here <hes> but you know it's kinda. He he <hes> he can't make it. It's kinda hard a lot of time because they lose a fourteen hour. Time difference between us sounds like an excuse that let yet. He couldn't join us tonight so he could enjoy and two nights with the moon oh night podcasts jokes practically write themselves folks right off. Ortiz renaissance man jokes folks. He writes letters do a moral connex. That's right yeah. There's all sorts of jokes across the specter. How are expecter inspector all right. You know it's been a little over weeks. We record recorded early last week last week friday so he's been he's been pent up for. Mike cave animal rights but yes for those of you who i didn't see our social media yes last week. Guardians of the last week guardians of the galaxy see number seven came out. Just you know just flipping through before i even read the issue feels like entering my code. You know on the website not just the happen the glance at them letter page and i'm just like wait the own his name in the ipad. I love my voice. Be heard. Gasunie got hurt by the world said. Did you email yeah yeah yeah. I emailed <unk>. There's i don't even think there's an option some male of his letter anymore but i would have done that. I would've done that emails at the bottom. 'em yeah yeah and it's just the same email for autumn. Sun must be a lot of hard work for us and i didn't know what to expect. Just sent it in and that i think it was the the first letter ever sent to a comic. I feel like i'm maybe thought about doing it before but and never got around to it and problem with being such bat. I've always liked back issues and reading older. Thanks so you know you can't write a letter inside sold news by then but i have been i have been reading the new guardians of the galaxy aleksey pretty much since it came out and <hes> so something happened quasar got mentioned in ahead speak oh yeah he was in that annual oh yeah all right so and i asked mr cone if he could actually read the letter in his own voice impressions do yet do your mccone impression yeah yeah. I mean you want me to do it now. You would wait till the end. It doesn't have to deal with the issue. We're talking tonight so yeah. I mean the guy well. I wanna give a little context because letter was in response wants to to letters that were in issue for so. I'll read those they're pretty short. Ones are the first ones from carlos really enjoyed the first issue and i'm really looking forward to the rest of the series. Also is wendell. Parentheses quasar back would case be down to write a quasar many and we'll get to to see what the heroes who are sucked in by the rifter up to impossibly the next two to three issues carlos the editor. Who was the seattle's shawn. I dunno. I go look says yeah. We might tell the story of what happened to those years someday. Maybe we'll see kind of tease them what happened happening any annual and then the next is the next letter a. saw the cover of this book was immediately intrigued to all of the big cosmic heroes together in one book including dr also the big heroes also. Do you think there is any chance we will get to see wendell vaughn in this book. It is one of my favorite cosmic heroes and i would love to see him return to the mantle of quasar in any case. Keep up the great work jeff polinsky. It's a guy we should probably add into the face and then here is response. Everson's started working on the cosmic books. All i hear is quasar quasar quasar aw quasar quasar quasar and then and dark dark dark someone explain this to me i saw i said you know what i will explain. It took up my keyboard warrior capped and i think this well this is probably the second longest longest letter published that one. There's one that's a little bit longer but it's broken up into some paragraphs so here we go. This is in response to the letters page of guardians of the galaxy number four after two people. Ask you about window vonnas quasar. Let me try to explain his appeal nineties. Mark gruenwald waldron is tremendously entertaining and you should seek it out. Parentheses marble has put out to trades that go up to issue number twenty five. It's also a common site in dollar bins wins and there were multiple podcasts about it did want to get the plug in there might have been by people can look it up is a very real character eric ter- with human flaws and quirks who has always been fighting for validation from his dad eon nineties comic buyers and has been to cosmic hell and back multiple times. He's an endearing character who happens to have some cool powers. Thanks to the quantum bands and many of us. I would like to see more of him either in guardians of the galaxy or his own series. I hope i have made a difference in you. Get a chance to know wendell alot better that kona and then he is nice for best enough reply. Thanks for the recommendations matt and i hope you check out the annual that featured quasar there might just be a little tease in there for some more quasar in the future now if someone could just explain to me the appeal of dark hawk yes however komo exclaim narcan all right now i feel like dark hawk is kind of like an inside joke. It's come to to life in the last couple of years because i i belong to a couple of facebook fan pages all i could maybe add you guys to someone posted a while ago like their dark hawk number one was a grail and they just kept posting about it and now every time someone finds dark number one at a dollar been they always post pictures. Che's of it and say like all hail dark hawk in it entertains me endlessly and i have a bunch of dark fox. They're they're fine but <hes> but yeah. I don't know i did read like the newest one and it seems kinda fun but <hes> yeah i don't. I don't really considered to be that cosmic battles the raptors kind of cosmic beans to in the amulet or whatever's 'cause mik anyway quasar as our i think he's his powers comparable cosmic source you know and hey mike manley after leading quasar went to pencil darcom so oh i think he he might be listed as a co creator but i'm not sure so it's gotta quasar connection and stay tuned for twenty twenty-five when we do dr carter dr or caught yeah just like forty episodes wind halbe mukunda impression. Thank you sir yes bravo. He would be so proud and to your lesson for the kids to see kids. Write your letters the marvel you might published <unk> actual comic book. That's that's right. Yeah start equate. Let's flood their bins with quasar. Yes well. He's do within it didn't he. Say in that one tim response that one letter that he keeps hearing about quasar quasar quasar quasar blanche. I mean look at us. We're almost at brady bunch. That's right. We got the story name window. We look more like brady martinez living in his debts housing connecticut look more like the brady bunch like hollywood squares already circle it the go here all right so we get to tonight's issue back to quit regular quasar sweet tea see the i've been modifying oughta find the art for the for every episode waiting see when this hits he see he's thinking goal on the cover. He's thinking golf when i edit when are nice. He's thinking this neighbor planet. I wonder what it looks like. Easter eggs is on my modified art that we'll have to wait and see as and yes we'll. We'll do onto libraries as we get the each scene mabel. You're out who you know to wants to do. What we know who's reduced due in hercules this issue right the v._a. And barrel <music> allies episode today. Oh why lord i love it asks what's funny. After we recorded that i went to <hes> there's a comic book store in summerville and a bend at it's like for kids like free free comic on the way out and there was a cover louis copy of that four issue i ever had in. I i should have just wrote a podcast on listen into this being read by instead. I just i just took it off all right so this one doing quasar twenty eighth not twenty nine like it told macaroni quasars yates who will be her mate suspicions. <hes> got a great cucolo cover off yeah get yeah. You got a bunch of people in here i of course quasars back but yet <hes> colossus of the x. men gilgamesh everybody gilgamesh is back in a while and he's he's these patched up because last time he asami was pretty bad yeah. I'd forgotten about him. Thank you dr samson samson. A correspondent elise as we mentioned hyperion the squadron supreme captain america eric masterson four back is that that echo the new of the etiquette vigorous yeah <hes> <hes> captain britain wonder man and name or name more frown ever-present frowny my name or maybe maybe his trunks too tight or something <hes> so yes quasar twenty eight from november nineteen ninety one one <hes> of course mark grunwald gang great ca pulo pence lurking way harry kandel r._e._o. Inker up anew that's right. Harry is an awesome dude. I've known him for a lot of years now. He is an amazing inker. Oh really so you call him a friend of the podcast can we could call. I remember to the podcast stay. Why don't you tell me we can see if he can come on tonight but this is his this is his first issue do with capello where he inked him in they were a team together throughout the run on quasar and then when they moved over to exploit oh nice oh <music> and he's an awesome dude i mean often i mean they do good work together really good work now. An old friend genus chang letter our show rosas colorist kelly corvus editor and tom defoe co editor in chief. I brought this up but i'm listen to nord interview with the falco and he was saying member in the nineties because we were talking thunder strike two episodes back <hes> you know when the nine these you know when they had cut down the marvel line it it came down to like thorn thunder strike and they went with four excuse classic but the fell claim the thunder strike zone four wow yeah that's interesting <music>. I've got i don't know where around here but <hes> one of the guides from heck's the <hes> used to be the weekly magazine comics <hes> over streeter it was it was a newspaper thing okay. The one that don and maggie thompson did and i cannot remember the name some of it but they do. The price guide ended also gives circulation numbers for a stop which is really cool. 'cause i had one for it has quasar listed in it. I was curious <hes> but it is around here somewhere so i will see if i can find it and we can. We can talk circulation numbers next time if you awesome all right horse so the first scene is when the wind <hes> macari moving into their apartments macaroni not when do macari sure and this takes place after the conclusion of the ad at the bottom of the page and that there aren't a around floor apartment editor's notes in your car can run right in nudie it it's on it's on west end avenue in one hundred second straight so maybe we should go there someday. Podcast from outside people are going to in this was down you. It's on the <unk>. The celebrity map maps of the art sleeveless striped shirt really fastly unpacking <unk> a crazy man to tell me using your quantum bands for home. Improvements is a legitimate use the official weapon of the protector of the universe he saw on some kind of like <hes> would with my mentor gone on my own boss now mac who's going to tell me what i can or cannot use the cubans for besides the more use them the farragut manipulating energy can't be a good protector of the u. If i can't i can't handle the two well yeah so why. What are you doing shit bothering fixing yourself all while you've got a whole ding dong university really like rotting me about my job titled any vade in the question truth is my roomie said that three times fast. I haven't quite go out how best to go about my job yet in the meantime. There's nothing like a little manual labor to clear out the mental cobwebs. Hey what's that he said changing the subject. Oh oh this a terra cotta statue plato plato plato. Yes siree bob. He was my philosophy professor. I know you're an eternal attornal mac but just how old are you anyway or half. We evoke only celebrate. Our birthdays wants the millennia. Wow so who's the oldest of you guys running garam master elo almost a thousand thousand millennia. That's a million years. Old must be odd to have such a long long view of time must be i'd not to hung out with all sorts of humor as i usually make it a rule well not to get too close to them seems like a soon as you get a good relationship going to grow old on you and hajime exception my case mackey. I know you're gonna age like other humans cue-ball. Maybe these funky hand bands ears. We'll keep you know. I never thought of that. True wish you were still alive. He'd probably be able to tell tell me about eons little sprout. What's his name pock najeh. He's just a newborn cosmic entity. It's gonna take them a while to get 'cause mclean where hey this year's. No you played the geat box. I used to haven't had so much. I haven't so much as touched it. Since became p of the new it might have i- plunk on it a bit. I used to play a little myself. Chamba pelvis wants back before we hit a big acquitting plato and elvis. Who else did you loops. According to my cubans are something unusually energetic in the immediate vicinity up. Check it out and half an hour. I'll go if identify unify the energy signature correctly someone have run into before you can finish on packing. I'm not here to ask you about that. Sir nothing up. My sleeve is at my uniform or to my quantum bands amit flat <unk>. He'll kill quays why you you got the wrong costs online right do thanks mac and the changes it with another flash. I'm gonna have to take that suit out of storage and dispose of it last week a word the whole thing for a whole day before i realized my mistake later pow said arithmetic thing editor's note fixing infinity gauntlet sorry paging dr grunwald right so and outside we see the <hes>. Will you wanna do jack of hearts. Okay sure all right <hes> meanwhile outs manson jackson's like walking down the street yep just two. I thought it was a jack of hearts <hes> quasar. My mistress was right in thinking he'd be here. I meant to try to find you after you exploded <music> a back issue number twenty. Things got really busy for me after that dying and stuff looks like you didn't need my help. I'm not here to ask you about that good. I was half expecting a meaningless slugfest to tell you the truth. I came here to ask you renounce whatever romantic inclinations you have toward lord moon dragon what i have. No you get look jack. I have no idea where you get your information but i assure you i have no romantic ideas about moon in dragon whatsoever. She's an acquaintance of mine and that's it. That's the last time she nice spoke. She had some funny ideas about me but i promise yes. You don't share them if you're interested in her. She's all yours. I won't go near okay. I would have thought a big cosmic mukomo clock yourself would go go for the most celestial woman. Alive qualifications have nothing to do with feelings jack. He say you'll stay away from her. I have no reason not to accept your word. Hicks <unk> who down back to the ground was that all about moon dragon put them up that that's supposed to make me think of her as more desirable oh she got some serious suitors app and both mission accomplished mr will he must be canadian. The alpha flight allom turns and sees her she goes. You're not completely human or you. Who said something alien about you you. You'll never do and she flies away what she moves like greased lightning. Go greased lightning. It's not she pronoun trouble. Dragons ship that you wanna do moon dragon dragon wait. This is still this jack right. Perhaps my mistress will know her know her. No dot no hurts. Business will know her. Knowledge is only surpassed by her beauty mistress. I delivered the i know. What are you what what you know of the woman. I met who she calls herself self her. She is a woman grown in a laboratory bestowed with a vast personal energy. What is he one of me. I felt like like she was. I'm certain among <unk> when we met several years ago back in marvel two in one number sixty one sixty three which is way back there. She was searching for her ideal mate. Even as i am now now i fear we will soon be working cross purposes. You and i are a fan. This'll be very <hes> below back in new york apartment as i play the seinfeld one goal at the front door what another powerful way form whoever it was just flew out of the vicinity guess i could check it out but let me touch base with macari i z guoxin and everything's done the full done really be gone. Five minutes must been holding back before. I wanted to save some of the fun for you but i kinda got carried away. Great can't complain say. I've got to know what <hes> actually community cards going off all right the last couple of episodes together o o young quays on these. I crave a boon own of you. Avenger brief explanation sorry matt gotta run again vendors business <hes> see where quasars running off to checkout thor number four thirty seven which was on sale at the same time as this but also because her episodes again go back as soon as i can and then <hes> we're about to get a bunch of cameras in the marvel universe right meanwhile we see her flying somewhere and she's thinking the think i've waited all this time to undertake the fulfillment of my destiny. What a fool. I've been for years. I believed that my predecessor the man once known as him was my perfect mate the when i was born to breed with in order to create a glorious new race of human being and but when i long but when at long last i met him he wanted me okay <hes> which was last last issue of course senator my first impulse was the force him to help me realize my destiny but i didn't it wasn't until i meditated upon the situation for some time before if i realized that dreadful delusion that was laboring under all along his genetic material was identical to mine with the exception of the sex determining chromosome combined her jeans would be redundant of no genetic advantage when whatsoever let the west virginia coal coach consequently. I have embarked upon my quest for beings of power whose genetic material compliment my own. There's a great concentration of such power in this out out of the way dwelling who lives here. I wonder and then as if that as an answer these x. men music we see cyclops colossus and wolverine come charging out of the mansion careful x-men security sensors in the case of being near near phoenix level power she that strong that's cool. That's good to know i forgot. They'd put her up at that high level. She's third. She was strong but i know she's phoenix and it's a woman and <hes> the canadian wolverine identify yourself tut's. I'm her and you are mutants. Go your genetic materials to unstable. You are not what i'm looking for. She takes off cyclops like what was that about uh-huh and earth's atmosphere moon dragon ship which i can help my mistress but her mind goes where none can follow. I've found her. She's on a quest for new mates. She had better stay away from quasar. He is mike conquest. I shall not be you denied him. She may be my fiscal superior but if she dares come between my intended in me all make her way all right but but then the next day all right. I'll read her <hes>. Will you wanna do wonder man be agent here a- and we can see her flying in the hollywood another potential mate nearby in here. She makes a hole in the wall. So how's it look neil. Do i have the part or not simon davidson then tell us all about did. Did i tell you it was all but in the bag. What do you think i make the big bucks. You feel that draft in here. Woo friend ears <hes>. Let's see never saw her before my life it. This is another of your publicity stunts. Neil just hope you're blue cross paid up mine replacing that window lady lies out if you wish and she fixes the wall it served its purpose purpose to bring you close enough to do this as she starts kissing him and asked what what was that four congratulations. Your genetic phenotype is acceptable to me. I chosen you to be one of my mates wait. So what's the scam what she wants. I don't know just kicked me. I guess sapiro rogue groupie it was inevitable pod on the back of his neck and we see her flying through the the air thinking almost twenty four hours spent seeking out screening potential mates and i am almost through <hes> i have no idea that there would be so many superhuman men to interfere okay now before we read this at i can identify jack of hearts colossus captain britain doctor strange hulk thing doctor spectrum nova. I'm pretty sure that that's the aquarian name more <hes> vanguard cable whole rage macari <hes> wizar-. I'm thinking that that's a u._s. Agent at the bottom and then what was u._s. Agents part battle star battle star could not river but who's the guy behind captain. Britain is that four dr drew samy doctor dr drew and i bet you that it is not because he's with the magic guy yeah that makes sense gotcha or should be a little out of place there but i know he like this scarfs scarfs and i was gonna say was this the period <hes> it might've been later but the d. aged doctor druid they gave him like the app propellant archea owned yeah yeah <hes> i'm the rb so many superhuman men interview some were disqualified because their extraterrestrial jeans which were not combine well with my own as we see jack hearts somewhere incompatible with because their power lay outside the electromagnetic spectrum trump magic. I believe one of them called it. Scores were rejected because they were mutants. Can racism others simply proved to be too physically imperfect to seriously consider <hes> the whole conveying while some had incompatible metabolism's were insufficient physical go power others were bizarre hybrids or suffered from chromosome damage skeoch has cable at the techno organic virus yeah still have identified and tagged hag three promising candidates so far have saved several significant possibilities to screen for last surely among them. My primate will reveal himself. Okay okay. Here's her try aung. Hey monkeys are cool man. I mean the y chromosome amazon but since oh she's doing place pods on people next couldn't she have gone to females. I don't see why i mean chromosome thing. I guess yeah aright alright when a tie up another <hes> loosen <hes> wrap up of four four thirty seven which we cover two episodes ago and they also appeared in that <hes> captain america issue we covered last episode of flights though because all right will you wanna do captain america you battle rights so avengers vendors headquarters later that say why so dowry or young quasar captain america we be summons to see not the lord of death another be of uh-huh. I'd rather be gone up by the lord of how to go forward or store comes walking. I kept america's office and he says well. I wasn't kicked off the team have seat. I i hate having to play <hes> disciplinarian guys but what about you two getting into a brawl rav four him. Well you see captain. The blame is totally the prince of powers. I tricked young quasar here to help him betraying the new thor in the ways of combat the door number four thirty seven which is still on sale well it was back then if there be need need to censure anyone i insist that <hes> intrude around the premises this the top can we get gas there pronto. Go ahead and flip less than a minute later. We see them. Come flying on a quantum construct a woman. She's dressed differently but isn't that the cosmic lady her we met up in toronto two looks like it to me and that's in alpha flight numbers ninety nine and our left <hes> get back michael chief michael ryan <hes> we can handle this. If you wanted to see us you could have made an appointment. You didn't have to do property damage destroy with my cosmic cosby power. I can easily recreates okay. The question remains what brings you here obviously she to see the lion of elitist rate. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day attributes. Come one of my mates. You say you wish to watch mate with you. I'll have to talk to a lot of convincing uh-huh rubbing up against the front of hercules you captain or the pinnacle of human perfection but regrettably or still merely human at you quasar or have no true power at all. It's all in your weapons. Thor whom i met moments before you arrived has an irksome enchantment about him which leaves only kirk yalies here a touch why wait the son of zeus stands. Everybody <music> survival. Perhaps wishes to call some plate the pleasures that await sir i heard then what did she stick on your back man. I fear it'll be unable to meet his cap and looks like some sort of cocoon kuna <unk> dow just if you don't mind postponing reprimanded to later await whatever whatever it is it's alive. If you don't mind postponing a reprimand to later i'm going to catch up with her and ask her what she's trying to pull had he flies off. He runs into <hes> <hes> <hes>. Will you wanna do hyperion. Okay sure whoa high period almost you time to talk powell trying to catch a lady she she got you to what you mean. Zoo now do vendors jim down to the avengers when catcher all bringer there <hes> hey way i think he knew what i was talking about the woman who accosted me and attach some sort of organism to my back. It's it's bad enough to sit about project. Pegasus uses with precious little talk prime time he thinks i'm going to just sit back and let him handle the sticky situation alone. He's got another thing coming great argonne that it can move after really poor on the speed all right. I've closed the gap did but he must have been waiting to get into the upper atmosphere before really poor opening putting up so i was like you know morals version of superman sir. We say acquaintance massive superman thank you i yeah i'm totally to ask with <hes> kaz cuevas thinking my fix owner energy signature is getting stronger audit make visual contact soon yeah there there. She is lady. I'm slowing you down like a quantum parachute attached to her feet out of parachutes grabbing. He's thinking and she says my feet says she starts blasting at it. Wow she's actually managed to chip off pieces from cosmic energies nothing new that the construct was a solid as any of ever formed armed yo her. I wanna talk to you when we we met fighting those aliens alongside alpha flight. I figured it'd be one of the guys so what's the deal sticking living parasites on hercules achilles and hyperion bats. She says those are not parasites. There's a pause my genetic material which will soon combined with theirs in order to produce offspring the ultimate offering during which the human species capable not remove these impediments out once and he says lady hint force a person that combined has netted material kiro with yours. There's a word for that and she says no one tells her what she can and cannot do. He's black that him but he the birds with a condom coin struck cuban coming now. That was a very nice here. We are having a pleasant discussion you haul off and blasphemy one. I think i'd better power you down before it goes has any further and she's thinking what does he know and he's thinking our now. She's still thinking he siphoning my cosmic energy. I must get away. Perhaps yes starts falling. What clever she's the first person i've ever flawed figured out that oh that i can only drain her energy from them. If they're expanding it she totally shutdown. All energy expenditures including keeping herself afloat better catcher convert her shoots into a nice soft trampoline. She's just laying in there. She's not lying there. She just lying there not moving wow what she shuts down everything she shuts down every <hes> so he wraps syrup that she even switch off her automatically functions. I barely get a reading and rapper up casey. Fling possums makes a sandwich wrap. What if she isn't what our forces so inextricably attached to her energy output that apps at the balance supporter new a coma jack reports energy was like that time we tussled is has her are you there. Can i just pause for a sec because i don't think he he made it the cosmic sandwich wrap. I think it was more of a her ito. God that was if you could win. The button got stock drum solo. Maybe russia i ice and she says let me out of this quasar or our consider you one of my enemies and he's like <hes> not till we talk those cocoons you stuck on hype and hercules and she says in four others what who never mind that for now. Tell me how things come off. She says they don't they're bonded the my mates with cosmic energy me. There's no way under the sun to not without killing l. e. Them who the cocoons of the mates. I do not know i've never done this before how long they remain attached at several months. I would imagine till they come the term. I don't like like those answers lady. You're coming with me back to vendors headquarters and you're going to find some way dundee the damage you've done. She says it is not damage. You fool it is creation quasar there. You are you got her. I see scooping. Those pods is not a very good one. I'm afraid or definitely alive. They're attached by cosmic mkx energy and they're sucking genetic material from you. She's thinking he's distracted. I was focused all my power all the power my command into a single thrust as she punches through the quantum on strength heli crash so what i thought i'd do as she grabbed him by the throat. I've reconsidered quasar for the great resourcefulness russell issue of demonstrated in our interactions. You've earned yourself the privilege of being one of my mates. Mom said there'll be days like this on. What's next issue what you didn't his his neck she did but then jack a heart's returns all right her for what you've just done to quasar. My mistress says you must pay. I like how <hes> hype on quasar have questioned speech bubbles. What what i was just waiting for a thought bubble for quasar not again. Dan packer parts always shows up the most inner opportune on that's right but i know like way back. We were talking about like they. We might have to cover some last guardians of the galaxy either the ninety series issues because what was it in that time line quasar her become the parents so yeah <hes> which is really cool yeah we could fit those in those in after the next issue because that's when this this story orange kind of wrapped up. I find him for me too. I got him. I got i can also send you a link nice to them. Digitally she wants. If you need a cool now for some reason i think those last couple some of those last issues are hard defined. Yeah i mean i think those kind of low run on some of them. It has the theory was winding down. It sold less and less and less okay. I'd say like the last five or ten issues are hard to find that is that guardian series started off really good. I mean the first half of its. I remember waiting. I'm for you know every every month just to to read it. It was vastra with that. She captain america's shield. Yes that's around me. Lisa's yes not maybe not as cool as throwing it using y'all near to like beat the crap out of and but you know still pretty cool sure speaking of seen spiderman yet. I still seen it yet. I'm a slacker. I know breath hanging head in shame. Yes breaking news radio ads. So what do we think her. What do we think of her. Who her her to me. I really sir. I really like what grunwald with her to give her own. Identity and i thought kismet was a really cool name. I mean spoilers. That's what she's going to take. The name kind of makes her unique not like you know at a morlocks female double or yeah and then. I don't think i think she's basically a supporting according character recipe book. I mean right. I mean she's not necessarily in every issue but she's in a lot of the accident. I think she makes it almost pretty much the end it doesn't she yeah i think so part of the universe but then i i think she's used again in chris clermont's rebooted the heroes return fantastic four. Maybe is that where she shows up again. After i can't remember it's been a long conference though i kind of think that that's what what they were pulling from for her appearance in guardians of the galaxy in the movie. Is that stuff that was going on in the those fantastic yeah yea yea. Oh maybe we could quasar in the movies. We will get her her. We have her. She's the leader of the planet that they it's. I think isn't she at least in one of those. <hes> quasar issues galactic storm. Oh yeah 'cause she's fighting <hes>. She's out there fighting with a binary binary. There's a yes he's after a bunch and then when they leave after galactic storm she goes with them with ian mcgarry so cool stuff but yeah but yeah we'll and i can find as guardians of the galaxy issues. I may want to do that after we issue twenty nine which i thought was cool because guess what could have been in that cocoon yet guess who the that i know of well who knows after after after the benefits years in the hickman years i didn't keep up so but up until then far as i know they were the only vendors that were you know. Maybe maybe temporarily displaced but one of them. They were father and son right. I didn't know it but you know you had stature. Join i guess after or during the indus run and you had ant man so i don't know if it's really that's the case anymore but i always like that. You're always like like scotland will often say <hes> my train of thought a uh thought it was a fun issue a little weird cameos. It's corky weird thing. That's how she's trying to find. Multiple mates put in this weird thing on our liking pieces of eon a l. It's yet some light light hearted side kicks stuff with macari and you know tie into the kind of a thread that's been in multiple other books cats and american floor that was is a those call over no joy that continuity error from infinity gauntlet okay all right. I remembered questions. Ask before but i have another question i he called epoch him in this issue so i i will always been confused with. This is epoch of a male or female. I've always considered epoch her yeah. That <unk> studes female too yeah. I think they kind of standardize is on her e park later on but i i'd forgotten that referred to epoca's here i mean i guess it really matters now. How are ancient ancient cosmic beings yeah. I don't think e on getting any so called you on him but you know yeah he laid an egg and i do like i calls the calls epochs muddling or you know little <hes> her so. I'm going to refer to epoch as she is. She takes the place of eon as the daughter of the access of time and whatever i mean if you listen to yang gives him you know who he is. You know in the very first issue like okay. Wait wise. You're the the what cosmic being not enough said my other question was. Do you think i don't know some of these. Superhuman guys would come around to you know. I don't know bearing offspring if her her made it in the more traditional national way i remember issue back in the day and i'm just like did she remind you of like you know. Baywatch era pam pamela anderson yeah well i mean quiz believing god's could meet in the middle and hercules was was down. Oh oh you go away. What hercules was ready to you. Go right there. In front of captain quaid's i ended olympic office might would you like to see <hes> melted limpest by their hustle fun time marange doing so anything else gentleman next next next episode. We get the cover that everybody loves to make fun of the pregnancy cover alber. Yes yeah which is a joke cover aimed at the demi moore cover. I mean it's it's a joke on joke. I mean oh my god. Whatever but yeah <hes>. I think we discussed this before. Well what issue numbers numbers were. <unk> was. The whole according to the galaxy was that quasar <unk> <hes> sixty sixty one sixty two sixty sixty three. I think hang on a second. I can tell you for sure it was the final three issues on on that sixty to sixty two or sixty three so might be sixty one two three okay. It is <unk> fifty nine. He appears at our end a fifty nine fifty nine sixty sixty one in six kathy so we actually find them. I mean we could probably do sixty sixty one and sixty two yeah. He's closed the show. Yeah yeah i dealing with the white room you know and which we haven't got to yet ah yeah that's cool. I actually we you brought up. I think last week or the week before last <hes> that since since the averell quasar was part of this cosmic cube thing that she probably didn't have the bands that win the naty et maybe so and plus you know you talked about it in the annual so which is interesting and we don't know what happened to the band's no. That's what brought him dead. We don't know what happened to marla boys in bands which are duplicates right. I mean i am fully functional. I'm gonna have to reread those issues. We'll see how that played out. We're still a few weeks away from those issues. I vache maybe one or two but now i bet the other thing yeah. <hes> was it last week. At jane foster valkyrie number one came out and i saw choose he's fighting blue streak in. He has a whole gang now with like warmers and mike and she was jane. Foster was thinking guy. Yeah blue blue blue stricken gang had been talking about how it took two quasars the beat them or something and i was like wait what really s._o. I did tweet out out than our our ewing actually tweeted back and said no. That's just a reference to pleasant hill bands yeah gotcha <hes> so al the writer jane foster alker <hes>. I think he was him and somebody else who else <hes> yeah there. There was like two writers on the absolving and someone else but yeah arguing back celebrate wait a minute. Is this about something not coming up and he's like not pleasant hills. Okay thornton all right so let's get out of here again south next week quasar twenty nine and maybe the episode episode after maybe we'll throw in some guards galaxy nineties era guardian s all right so we'll allred master the quantum zone where working on you <hes> you can find me at w. A. l. l. r. e. d. That's g mail or twitter or facebook or whatever whatever i'm all over the place <hes> you can find my self published comic diary night <hes> which had a successful kickstarter diary of night dot com and you can and find the quantum zone quantum zone dot org which has a giant checklist of quasar appearances for one thing which is what i looked at to get those guardians issue. I see yeah you check out. Check all the listener ira and just to go back to your <hes>. You're losing your train train of thought earlier. I built that list because i couldn't remember one where he appeared and if i had it or not so there you go oh yes skin asking on recovery comical cab there on a hard drive in there because you know author member i can remember can cover if i have it or not but yeah yeah are. I'm not i'm not as good as i used to opera bad i i am real bad. I try to keep a list of stuff that i need sometimes uh-huh i don't update it after go to the comic shop and i buy the same comic yeah yep i go to a convention looking for stop by either. Write it down or a piece of paper. Put it on my food. Phones are a letter writer of olympus back. People find you await report before i have to interrupt this <hes> can we can. We get him a nice slow. Clap here rent. You're right yeah people right. Hey rate didn't tell us what impression was better his macarena or hercules no so. Where can i write to you back to ah <hes> you can write to me. Only to the guardians of the galaxy letter response may that you took my advice checked out the muscle so podcast you got the trades you rated the dollar bins you love wendell vaughn quasar and or you can find me on social media at mac and made e._t. K._o._a. That's another way to reach me and oh. This is just a data mentioned this before in the past but i just recorded a fun the last night and i painstakingly unfunny edited a the first best of the backstage the naked comedy showcase podcast odd cast so he could find that on itunes cooler up. It's a long title backstage at the day he comedy show is broadcast but you know it was fun time so yeah look it up and <hes> hit me up. Let me know what's going on is if you're in chicago on august twenty six. Go see my wife at stage seven seven. The three u._c._l._a. is really wonder. Live comedy shows might be. They're nice yeah flights from australia chicago pretty cheap so right go for the weekends totally screaming baby on a plane plane yeah no problem over the night. Oh hey that's that's right rain now. You're just going to here night jokes every time now. Thank you mask you. You've we've got a. We've got a thing now or the of comedy all right. I've got to plugs alright so emails about any of this kwan app. Keep some lunatics g._o. Dot com follow quantum's facebook facebook dot com slash quantum zoom pod and check out eons closet <hes> our quasar group on our facebook group <hes> at corners implied in at seal psychics aches on twitter follow seal psychics on instagram <hes> checkout worker progress capes in lunatics dot org go subscribe to the cape's lunatics youtube channel and subscribe per week new weekly newsletter. They'll tell you everything we're doing that week. Capes and lunatics thought home blog call a voicemail six one four three three eight two two seven three seven at six one four thirty eight capes and now going forward. If you wanna watch us live through this lot do live <hes> can always watch john get vocal v. o. k. l. dot com. I i write everyone join us next time for the conclusion inclusion of many men a her many men and a baby arraignment potential many potential babies. I don't know who is the foot like jerry springer maury get more get more mukunda hercules in spite it yesterday and barely get more night jokes folks. I guess where he's a good sport. Dr check out into the night at weekday podcast. He's very supportive <unk>. I never mind plug his wet. Favorite shows quantum's over here so quality when he sees everyone come back next week and every week. Remember quantum's owners keep a quantum.

quasar editor britain facebook wendell vaughn writer Mike golf w. A. l. l. Ortiz Gasunie ray carlos seattle mike manley southgate media berkman
When Calls The Heart - S01E05

Deck The Hallmark

33:45 min | 9 months ago

When Calls The Heart - S01E05

"This is a bramble jam. Podcast at brand. When calls the heart and andrew walker stash like when calls the heart and andrew walker stash. Hello it's dan. I despise heart and i hate it for you. A walk despisers. Stop it and this. Is the the hallmark podcasts. Immune yes yes it is when calls the heart day everybody thanks for asking. Hello you sound like you're going to go. British decided to pull the put. Your like jack to jack all had figure not today not today. I didn't want to take anything away from that stash. No no from stashed great stash andrew walker episode of one calls what to do to this one the next billing good character. I think he's going to be just a stand up guy for sure and so. I think jack's going to be wrong on this one. We'll find out. Find out boy. If for those of you that are just now tuning into the heart episodes. A nice to have you can catch up if you want to Or not just fall along with us. It doesn't matter to me. Either way to be honest with you i would. Don't i will say it's it's gotten a little bit harder. It's not enough anymore. But at least it's a homer movies now. I think we can stop there either. It's nowhere nowhere to be found working have their best shot so we bought. The season bought it on prime with their own money. Yeah stung thank god for prime though emma two day shipping or free lives three lifts or orient. And you don't get to choose between two day shipping and free delivery. It's both going to get two days off to you. The both both both and situations giving it away these sure. Surely they are this in jaffa check we should. He probably is just not doing well financially. We could write him a little something from brain gym we got we got a little bit coin back there. Oh fifty fifty bucks. Yeah he would really will go a long ways. I think it would. Jeff bezos she just considered on buddy. Hey we love you jeff. Pay your taxes You guys excited about this. This is the dance dance. Just any bandstands and then the paul's hard answer. We're digging a hole in the mind. Dance dance all of the guys are de dance dance. New ones are walking. And i didn't want to get away. When calls the heart the season one episode five five dance originally aired on february eighth two thousand fourteen and a win a little something like this. Oh what's that you hear the sound of the horses coming on into town and that's the sound of a new batch of minors in coal valley. Are there any kids. No are there any wives. No the company finally figured out. Hey it's probably best. Just hire single guys to ruin their lives. So they hire a bunch of these new miners and the head. To their bunks. Which happened to be in the saloon. Which also happens to be the school. They show up in the middle of the day they want. Drink and elizabeth is like no you. Don't this is a classroom at this hour of the day. One of the miners is not happy about that. He says i'm get myself a drink. But there's a stashed fella who's not having it his names billy hamilton. And billy says you know what sir. Listen to the lady. I'll buy you around later. And the guy is not want to give up on free drinks and so off. He goes billy hamilton anything. That's going to be enough rest. No more him right. You'd be wrong. it's time for more ability hamilton. Where he speaks some poetry. And elizabeth hello minor but jackson looking on not happy about what he's seeing. Is he jealous. I don't know or does he just hate poetry. Could be that But he's suspected smooth-talking. Billy might be up to no goods. Among the other women of coal valley the new miners are a reminder that You know no the mega feasible zoa. Good new miners are a reminder of the miners are remind ner dir of the mega mega-theater the niners are a reminder of the mega. That's what i'm saying. I said it could say that the new miners are a reminder of the mega. The new miners are in. A reminder of the negative funeral is heart was twice Yes so sad about the mega funeral. There's lots of people that are like. This isn't good there in this town they're going to be up to no goods But some of the women trouble in the neighborhoods. Exactly right There's one though that is very welcoming and looking forward to welcoming the new Residents in. They're going to have a dance dance dance. They're going to call it the minor days now. The kids kids. No no that was last year this year's minor day and someone that these kids and it was like. Hey kids know where the minor handsome last year denver. My mind her sister here. It's a real real bummer. So abigail remember reminds all the widows that life goes on We gotta continue to to to go go for it. And to make every day worth living There's also a new baby coming into town With from from. Carla karla newnan yep car car car kala guy okay. Hot on that one clap and it threw me oh hot. I just clapped on beeped now. Carla's pregnancy is a real pickle. The town midwife jumped ship not here anymore. so abigail. how hard can it be. Maybe you know. Worst case. I think it. Meanwhile the the miners are beginning to make themselves at home here. Especially that fella. Billy who's again just smooth talking the heck out of elizabeth. We also meet dewitt grades. Dewitt's really takes a like into widow. Mary mary is flattered by dewitt's to win offers to buy her groceries for her. And then says hey you can make those groceries piece of dinner. And she says well guess. I have to ha- to which shows up mary son. Caleb is acting a fool out there. He's not having it and he's like. Don't forget about dad ma. Emotions really begin to run high. Jack upon elizabeth and billy taken a nice stroll through the. What's jack is very suspicious of bellies. She's i listened elizabeth I know you're i know you like this fella. I know you're you're somebody say smitten. But i don't think he is who he says that he is and elizabeth like oh because he says poems is good enough reason for me. I'll do some more digging though. Billy ask elizabeth if he She would join him at dance and she says okay. It's the time of the minor dance. Many kids show up. They send them home not your day. Elizabeth students have decorated a saloon for the minor. Dance again thing and it was their own day. Everyone is very happy celebrating. Lots of dancing. Good music going. On and caleb shows up in his father's oversized suit. Mom doesn't ask any questions. Does dance with him and he just says hey. I miss my dad. And she's like yeah. Got that figure that out pretty easily. Meanwhile jack who's attending Not to dance to make sure nothing bad happens. is watching really closely on. What's going on with billy because again. Who does poems everyone goes. They're done the party's over and Abigail finds carla just starting labor She puts her to bed. I guess i don't know And jack receives confirmation that. Billy is sketchy fallow via telegram. That comes and he says. I knew he was not who he said he was. My friends was when calls hard. Yes we do. We did do it. I think we should take a quick break down. Even further share our thoughts and our feelings and all that good stuff. We'll do that when we get back to your hopes and a valleys. We're going to do that. Thank goodness what will do. Oh boy it's going to be back. Yes so we're talking about that dance where you guys being to danson. No did you guys go to school dances. Who wasn't allowed to have dances but we all like we did the junior senior. There was always after party. Dances with your mom or what happened there. No no no. I was too shy by the libyan jason there. Let's go guys and girls. Because we had i put them. We had and just firm burn. Appoint what about you. Bring not a big. No no no. No one wanted to go with brands where we share exactly felt about this episode of this here program when calls the heart. Pandya dancing on this one. No not sure not listen. I've i've enjoyed the show so far and i with these kind of television shows That there's filler episodes especially when there's was like twenty episodes ten episodes of season. There's it makes it worse. Doesn't it okay. Because what i was gonna say was with like. Hbo some of the short run. Like filler episode are detrimental seasons. You can't afford to have those things and season two was like eight. Yeah and there was a straw physically stupid. Those are the things. This is painful because this episodes boring First of all second of all. There's not enough mystery behind. Andrew walker's character for me to really care that much nothing happens. Nothing in fact happens in this episode. Not a thing you have a guy who's to several walks and you with elizabeth ries recite poetry and jack says he's a rascal and like that's it and so this is not a good episode. There's not even a lot of what i would say character development really and so. I'm a little bummed out by all this this is This is the worst episode. So far of calls i've seen So no not a big fan of this episode do agree. It is the worst episode And that's a shame because andy's just crushing it here man like andy. Oh he's he is great in this he's got a great stash. He's doing something he's like really trying to bring this character. It broke my heart. When i saw he was only in another episode. Like that's such a big bum bum. Stashes going to waste and that but yeah just not a lot going on here. There is a multiple times episode cuts away to pockets in his pow. And i still don't fit for more episodes. That's it for pockets. That's it there's no are you serious you say he's only into episodes. Andrew walker's only into pockets. Okay with that have been. Oh my goodness hall you guys. You guys were really. You heard how i feel about pockets. Pockets is out there picking up horseshoes this week. We said we called. What did pockets do the pocket poll. A horse was pocket this week pocket. Excellent pockets plus love pockets but just literally for no reason. Noah's happened on i guess. Carla is some drama with a baby and the lack of midwife. But there's just not a lot going on. I would have liked. I don't know like jack to have to give us something about why he is so bad boy like it seems literally that he knows poems thing. That's nine so men. Men don't know literature. No i would have liked something more. In this episode to make it less parable pointless would say yeah but andrew's great. I think when calls the heart is using walker in this episode studios are now using liam nason man this movie it looks like it's going to suck liam get in here and just chased some folks get here and just do the same thing you do every movie try to save it and whatnot the plane and the girl and everything is great movie and so you guys like andrew walker. It's got a tach this time. Oh liam neeson's sharpshooter this time. Oh he's on a plane this time every time but there is zero going on in this episode of television. I would like to say. And i think you guys are going to hate me for this. It's not the worst. Because i think andrew walker makes a step ahead of the premiere which in my mind earning the second one. It wasn't the perimeter in the mind. The second line with the girls loss in the mind is my least favorite episode. It is it's bad television at its baddest like. It's not good television. There is nothing that happens. There's ten episodes they're going to stretch this out for to andrew walker is going to be going. There will be no consequences. There will be no stakes. It is what it is there. It continues to blow my mind. This show is popular. I don't understand it doesn't even play by. Its own rules. We can't even decide if it's okay if men can drink during the day in the saloon. We don't know the answer to that because in one episode of is in the next episode is not i just this shows not very good in this episode is especially bad because literally it. You're right it is. Here's a scene. Where andrew walker recites poetry. Here's a scene. Where pockets finds a horseshoe sees twelve. Fragment woman is pregnant woman. Here's the scene. Where andrew resides poetry. Here's a scene where dana listening stairs. Really hard at something like that is just a loop that we're on. Nothing of any consequence happens. It's very bad television. And the more. I talk about it the more it may actually be the worst one. Here's like knowing that the season is twelve. Episodes and ten twelve is a fairly. I mean like twelve is still a cable television. But what i'm saying is you know you got you know. Got a little bit more like okay. I'll give you one bad one. This is one bad. One for the out then i then. I can't say the seasons a solid season like it's a good season so we've been so hot tamale up to this point. Here's my issue with season. Two stranger things that one bad episode all two is great. Talked about this. He i say season. Two's the worst of the three seasons. It's only because he says it's the best of the three seasons. I think that the plots nominal hear me. I think but that one bad episode because there's only eight or nine you can't afford to make a misstep with that few episodes almost twelve episodes of give you one. Here's are you trying to things really quickly. But it's also derivative of your derivatives derivatives. It's supposed to be an eight episode season. show season. Suppose that they ask for an extra for that one episode. It was a mistake. You throw it out you keep with the normal eight. It's the best season dan. I like to the mall and three better than to. I watched it. I stand by what i said. The that terrible episode of the whole thing. I just want to finish series. I gotcha Is it time for other fields. It's part of the show we talk about in this episode of god gave us fields. Painted stash feels really really digging. Andrew walker's look but if you're gonna ask me like emotional. You know who i don't mind i like mary dunbar. I like her. she's the one with the Eighteen yes right. I really like her. I like her character. And then i think she's in it that much which is kind of a sad thing for me because i really i thought. Hey she's she's terming electric. That's what i was gonna say. I like mary and the guy Was together graves. Gray garni whatever gorny garni oranje that whole storyline in this episode was working storyline really liked and just try like trying to like like be nice to the kid and the key calebs him like. I don't know if that works for sure. No no feels absolutely not it was. It was cool to see andrew walker and win calls the heart. I guess that were off pretty quickly. We all know people know that he and daniel listening in the final two for jack. The mountie they auditioned against each other. They're good friends. They went with daniel listening and so this was clearly a thanks for making it to the final two andrew. Here's a couple episodes. Here's a little paycheck for you because you don't are movies and you're doing a great job so that were pretty quickly. I didn't really have anything. Unfortunately sorry sorry do you think. They regret using walker. That early since thumb favor regret. Not making him jack knowing. Daniel listening left's spoiler alert after whatever. It was five seasons. I think had they known dana listening was going to leave. I think dana listings better for the part but had they known he was going leave in the middle they would have cast andrew walker because android is not leaving and so they thought for sure dana. Listen would be so so you don't t think on top of that. The us indra walker too early in the show because they could extended his arc. Yeah i feel like he he could have been a guy. You problem moss. This is twenty fourteen. So it's like right at the beginning of when andrew walker twelve when he was really starting to get used so this was they didn't they also andrew wasn't today yeah they didn't know it'd be eight season show episode var. They didn't know what they had yet. I don't think i still think they know. But that's either there Let's say when we're right okay We'll talk about the way. What's the what's calling the the lows in the valley and what's called the heart man. I'm really excited off. Gosh i'm so excited to be here. Donald got see light up like that was a weird way to fake fake fake punt. It was like well you want now. Don't need it the way. We talk about One in this episode of one called smart meters. Say wait what. Hand up honestly. I only have one thing. Wow i couldn't find. It's not that this is an airtight episode. It's just nothing happened into submission. Like h doesn't i didn't have anything. Just be cut like. Why did mary dunbar. Have it worse like wait. What they're all. Listen their husbands all died. They were all killed in the mind her. She is no exception. Several of them have multiple kids more. She has one kid. There's some of them who's who have lost their husband. They have like three or four hungry mouths to feed like. I don't know why she does like why she has it worse. I don't know if i've missed something or if in fact that's just a throwaway line. Like why did she have it worse. It makes no sense to me. Makes i got a couple of one is Jack's tiny cup that he has been seen around town drinking coffee out. It's a very tiny cup. Just want to know about it Wanna know about the way that the market And this is probably a question of history like so she goes and she wants to add all of this food to her tab essentially and they say no. You can't no more room for that on the tab and so new guy in town puts it on his tap wants to deal with taps. I think the tab was away to keep people from having to pay every time they went in based upon how money was given out To people who worked that would. That's the way i understood it. Is that you just kind of settle up at the end of the month. That's what you do and you. It's there's a no interest loan on it but clearly her tab had just she had not settled but you. I wonder how all of the other women in town are doing with their taps. You know like all the other widows offered he might be like just not getting his money because obviously concerned about him but also the death. Some sort of does come down to mary's hat at the hardest. I really is the big question because they just say that they say it in passing. She isn't paying for groceries. She hasn't made a meal apparently in a long time. one on. that's something that like says. My son will be so happy to have a real meal right. A hearty meal hasn't had a hearty meal. I've been feeding him. Baloney say what am i do. My question is yeah. What's up with her. But also how were all of the other widows doing like. What may what made her situation. She's burning through the cash so much quicker and how are the other women doing her kids so much old. It seems like he's like the kid he's not not all gatewood. So games older. Yeah and i mean. She sells candles. I think that's my biggest. It's just a big question mark for me. Why is caleb not get any hearty meals is a big one for me. I don't understand that she's like well. It would be good for killed to have a hearty meal. Is he just not eating. Like i don't understand. I mean my italy meals they serve back in one thousand nine hundred hearty. I don't yes but at the state like if she's out of money all of the widows would be out of money and then what does she feeding him in general for meals apps like just. What do you mean surround around. Sally's sally's scrap scrap. I forgot about sally's only scraps. This weird yeah hon. Fresh scraps It describes only have two more one to salute. The saloon really does bother me. Like i don't understand to episodes ago. A guy went in the middle of the day. The draw their cooking while they're while they're doing school any sat down and he drank at the bar. No one blinked. No one said a word. It was normal normal. All of a sudden you can't drink during the day i just. I just need to know what the rules of the saloon while school is in session. It doesn't make any sense to me. And then lastly one scenes the pockets down by the docks but this doc ramps up like the duke boys are going to jump it in in the the generally like it. I don't understand the doc. I've never seen and i grew up in small town south carolina. We go to the to fish all the time. I never. I've never seen a doc that ramps up like this. I don't i don't understand what it is. I i have a thought on. It's just a hypothesis so if the boats from necessarily higher that you know they were coming down like maybe the river or whatever and they're like riverboats higher maybe when they're unloading their stuff from the boat. Dock was a port for big ships. Not a big ship like those votes. Like a riverboat. Looks like a duck creek. it does. And in which case the general getting into a freeze frame the classic freeze frame situation. That's all that for my was. That's fair that's fair. that's fair. Is anybody anybody in the chat. With our brethren plus subscribers that can give us some insight on y. It's tougher for mary and like what mary situation is. Maybe i'd love to have like miss something and then get some information. Because it's really tug at my heart's Hey let's talk about the the hills and the valleys Hopes and valleys If you don't mind things that are either given us hope for the future of this. Show some this maybe taken away. We're worried about it panda I gotta be honest with you. I hope they resolve this entire plot point of new miners in town. People meeting up quickly. I don't enjoy this plotline. i'm just e it. It's just kinda suck the oxygen out of what i thought was a really good episode last week Of the mystery and everything. I thought that was a pretty strong plot point. I i'm ready for it to move on. Let's move on my is. I wish. I didn't know that andrew walker into yup i get bums me out like legitimate because it's all stores come come and go right but there's something about like this is like we know now like we know he's going to be a bad guy right like he's two episodes are going to ship them out of town and so that. I'm sad that i know that i do have. I do have a hope in my hope. Is mary mary in the guy but she's i think that's going to be a hot a hot relationship. I think it's gonna be a hot relationship. And d- do we see it. All honeycomb it might be a nice honeycomb hideout and i think you know i don't want the new my. I'm finding the new miners coming into town as as long as leads to storylines like mary to be longer. That's the problem. I don't wanna lose. Mary too soon and i know i only have seven episodes amari countdown clock and it just it bums me out. Who's counting down the clock clock. Yeah i like mary. Guy did garbage garba. I'll take fifteen seasons of just mary. That's just mary. just i don't know about that. I don't this isn't just this. Mary or is it just a different mary this mary interesting hoping different schools. Yeah mary no. I'm telling you it's just married. Kimes got his own show now called keenan. canaan doesn't not look great just keenum. God bless just. Mary just mary i don't. This was tough. I mean the valley was this episode in the hope. Is that the next. One can't be as bad as this one. I mean it. Just can't be i just i can't what can i also say i. I'm one of values is. I'm concerned that these you know tension plots are only gonna last two episodes each yup. Well see those are getting together sooner or later one too. But what i'm getting at is the whale. Oil storyline lasted two episodes at orange walker. It's gonna be two episodes right like these are things that i want them to build. I don't want to episode of hip. Hip knee ups. Yeah they to episode. Hit me up. They could have stretched the burn down the church for a full season season-long part of the show. Because you got jack. And elizabeth huber down the church. Who's going to work the mind. Those are all storylines that would work over ten episodes. Yes i just i that. That's they all that way to it. Just it just and the pinkerton bad guy like does a great a great plot device. You did nothing with nothing. nothing at all. That's frustrating pinkerton. Homework doesn't know how to do serious television. They're they're they're getting it. I don't think this a list. That's not we're looking into the past. What's right we have a whole future ahead of the try so you think it's to get better one hundred percent which season you banking on owns the best. The most recent one seven seven eight comes out in two weeks. Yeah i i bet. It's even better than seven. I think it's all every it's all rise every see there will not be down point. Man set this episode. You think the show gets better after jack dies you the full season. Bring chris mcnally in movies. Bet he's awesome in the show your high on the knowledge. I bet he's better in a serial television. That's why i would bank. Are you more sierra. Cereal or more television cereal cocoa puffs. Puff puff dude. My parents would never let me have the sugar stuff. Mine either but unreal. Dave finally did when i was a little bit older. They friendly let me have it and one that we. It was great. Cocoa puffs in cocoa pebbles. Cocoa pebbles fruity pebbles. Don't like fruit cocoa lubbock chocolate at the work. A so good. I'm more puff than pebble. I didn't chocolate chocolate cereal guy. I'm not a big ciro guy. But i was allowed to have any of the sugar. Something more of luck. Life them all day unit butter cap'n crunch and then also golden grams. My mind was blown when i saw the Share tells like it's like new information you have. You had these golden grams. Yeah are great. I've thought to have golden grahams as a kid really. I was allowed to have those the cinnamon this delicious cinnamon cinnamon toast crunch. All rice for cinnamon toast. Crunch is good start globe gone higher. The bigger gotten because. I like cinnamon right. You didn't when you're younger. I don't think i like as much as i do. Necessarily your love of cinnamon has also been all. Oh yeah all right. So you'll love cinnamon more tomorrow than you loved it two hundred. I love believable. Tomorrow's newspaper today. I do says all cinnamon baby. His personal newspaper thoughts. It's not it doesn't help anyone with anything. they wonder how. I'm gonna be feeling about seven to borrow jay. C. the funnies are just our podcast cartoon love. And hey i we. We did it everybody. We're gonna leave you with a What's calling my heart. it's Wear a listener emails in something. That's really been. Oh i don't know calling their heart. They've been loving. That's been making them full joy. Who do we have this week. Dan bryan herald. Brian cintas an email talking about what's calling his heart. I'm going to read it for you. Brian says hi guys paul. Okay paul campbell. Who is you guys though. The paul kandel has done a few instagram stories lately. Where he's been dressed up as officer ding-dong for this flick. He's currently shooting. He's going to be a police officer in the movie coming up in these stories. He's playing the instagram stories. He's playing this character. It's like a soft southern. Wanna be influenced your type character. And it's one of my favorite things. It's just a lot of just checking in on y'all and whatnot seeing how y'all weeks going and doing and doing and go and just play in y'all but let me speak from my heart right quick and whatnot and what have you just a lot of that type. Speak without really saying anything and it's been hilarious. It's tugging at my heartstrings. And whatnot and i can't see it anymore because stories are fleeting. That's what's been calling my heart and whatnot. And what have you brian. thanks brian. Thanks buddy how can people email us heart. Hello how can they email is. What's calling them. Hello addict the homework dot com to tell us what's in your heart short and it could be the hearts. I don't know how that's gonna take. It can be a shoutout. it can be this. It can be anything for that matter. Guys whatever's calling your heart's on your heart panda cinnamon here. He says yeah. Yeah and jesus but more cinnamon at the moment is through the roof j yes. Us is back spell. J yes yes. I i just heard jay s. Us that's one. That's the abbreviation for the stock. Buys them jay. Those bets everybody. We'll be back tomorrow. With a bride for christmas morris town you can watch it on prime if you want to back then until then maybe the few merry christmas. The homework is a bramble jam. Podcast produced by brain ingraham presented my family. Tv our lovely set is decorated by plum. Home the core. You can check them out. Aplomb own main dot com more information mational religion podcast brown podcast dot com every bramble. Gm podcast ad free of the brain will jim plus dot com.

andrew walker jack billy hamilton elizabeth Andrew walker Billy billy mary dunbar elizabeth hello dewitt dana Carla karla newnan mary son abigail andrew libyan jason mary elizabeth ries Carla liam nason
BS 187 David Eagleman on his new book "LiveWired"

Brain Science with Ginger Campbell, MD: Neuroscience for Everyone

55:34 min | Last month

BS 187 David Eagleman on his new book "LiveWired"

"I'm very busy as neuroscientist but this is why always devote a lot of time towards writing public dissemination of science. Because i think it's really important. It's actually very clear to me who my audiences when i write and that is might younger self myself who didn't know this data at some point but was interested and would have had my mind blown by some of these facts that i didn't know existed in the world happily lots and lots of adults and older people read my books and a lot advocate but fundamentally. I'm writing these books for the kid who thinks. Hey i want to go into neuroscience. I'm not sure exactly. What is the most interesting part to me. But here's one way of getting there. Welcome to brain science. The podcast where we explore. How recent discoveries in neuroscience are unraveling the mystery of how our brain makes us human. I'm your host. Dr ginger campbell and this episode one hundred and eighty seven. My guest today is bestselling author and neuroscientist. David egan besides being a prolific writer. Dr gelman has also hosted the tv series the brain which aired internationally i. I talked to david back in two thousand eleven about his first book. Incognito today we are talking about. His latest book livewired the inside story of the ever changing brain. This is an episode for listeners of all backgrounds but before we jump into the interview. I want to remind you that you can find complete show notes in episode transcripts at brain science podcasts dot com brain science is produced independently and relies on the financial support of listeners. Like you to learn more. Please visit brain. Science podcast dot com forward slash donations. Please feel free to send me feedback at brain science podcast at g mail dot com or visit our fan page on facebook. If you'd like to get show notes automatically every month sign up for our free newsletter just text brain science all one word to five five four four four at brain science all one word to five five four four four. There's also link the show notes. David eagle welcome back to brain science. It's great to have you back on the show. Yeah it's great to be here again. After all these years. I thought you might start out by just telling us a little bit about yourself in terms of like how did you get originally interested in neuroscience. My father was a psychiatrist and my mother was a biology teacher. And so i think there was a lot of conversation about the brain always happening in my house but i never thought that it actually go in that direction. It just didn't strike me. I wanted to be a writer. But i was in college in my last semester. My senior year. I took a neuroscience course and then i was just hooked. I just felt like. I had found the thing that i wanted to do with the rest of my life. That's it that's a great story. I get emails from people. All the time about the way they feel when they discover neuroscience. And it's kind of cool to be a part of that discovery. Since we sh- we share this passion for sharing it with others your new book. Now you did become a writer because you how this is like the sixth book or something like that. Yeah so you new book livewire inside story of the ever changing brain. What motivated you to write this particular book. I've written books on lots of other aspects of neuroscience but to me the most gorgeous probably lease talked about in terms of popular science aspect of the brain. Is it's massive flexibility. In the way that it's constantly reconfiguring every moment of your life so with everything that you hear an experience and see and so on you've got your eighty six billion neurons in your two hundred trillion connections between them and they're just constantly reconfiguring so now this concept of brain plasticity. This is something most everybody knows about. So i'm not implying that it's an unknown but there's not much to talk about because there's so much mystery there and the reason is our technology really isn't good enough to measure what's happening at the level of these very tiny connections. And so what. I wanted to do in. This book is distilled down everything in the in the plasticity literature to basic principles. What do we think is actually happening under the hood with the system. That's very different from for example what we build in silicon valley where everything is about hardware and software. So i call this live wear to distinguish it because it's a system that's actually changing. Its own circuitry on fly and of course this is how we drop into the world and absorb it and come to represent our cultures and our neighbors and our friends and our parents and half of us is other people in the end because we absorb all this stuff and that's who we become so anyway. That's why i want to write this book. Yeah one of the things i really enjoyed about the book was that you took all the classic experiments about plasticity that are out there and sort of went back through them but looked at them like you said from a basic principle point of view i was wondering about the role of dna because that really in some ways is the reason why our brain needs to be flexible. Would you talk about what its role is generally the way i look at. Dna now is it. Is the thing that sets up the system. It's the first domino that kicks off the whole show but really what it is. Setting up is a system. That is live wired. It's building a system that will then go out and absorb the world around it. So in other words one of the people that i worked with in my postdoctoral fellowship was francis. Crick the co-discoverer of the structure of dna and in one thousand nine hundred eighty three. When he and watson discovered that structure figured it out he went bursting into the eagle and child hub been said we have discovered the secret of life and my argument is that actually what they discovered was one half of the secret to life and the other half is all around us because it's everything that we experience in the world. That's the thing that really wires up our brains to be who we are so the analogy given the book is imagine if you were born thirty thousand years ago the same. Da now the question is would you be you or would you given a completely different culture and technology in language religion. Everything going on thirty thousand years ago. Would you be someone else entirely. It's actually a very hard experiment to run in our heads but the fact is you would be someone completely different because all of your experiences would be different so dna is actually not the secret life that we thought it was. I remember in two thousand. When the human genome project was finally completed. We all thought this was the biggest deal. We thought well now that we have the whole gym. We're going to really understand ourselves. I don't mean to imply that it was a failure because there are so many things that will continue to come out of it but boy did not give us an understanding that we had hoped it would. Because that's only a little piece of the puzzle. Now the interesting part. Is that all of the changes that happen with the brain because of your experience actually can feed back down to the level of dna and change the genes that are expressed or repressed. So i just want to mention that when we think about dna and we think about world experience these actually intertwined in a strange way so nowadays when we think about the nature nurture question it is a dead question because we know that it is both in a way that intertwines very carefully. Today's episode is sponsored by green chef. The number one meal kit for eating well in wales easier than ever with green shifts satisfying home cooked dinners and options. That work around your lifestyle not the other way around. You can choose from thirty easy to follow recipes every week with options from kito paleo and plant power diets as well as meals to help you eat in a more balanced way. My favorite thing about green shift is the wide variety of recipes. That keep me from getting into a rut. Just go to green chef dot com forward slash ginger. One hundred or use the code giant g. e. r. one hundred to get one hundred dollars off including free shipping. That's green shift dot com slash g. i. n. g. e. r. one hundred or the code ginger one hundred when i was in medical school and i think they're still talk this idea that the sensory and motor areas of the bryner hardwired for particular tax. But the reality is that it is much more interesting. Can you take us through our current understanding of what's really going on. Yeah so for example with the motor system. So you've got this strip in your brain right around where you would wear headphones. That has a map of the body in controls. All these muscles of your body and this was discovered in the nineteen sixties and a perfectly reasonable explanation was okay. This is genetically pre specified. This is the map of the human body. What bodies should look like but it turns out. We pretty quickly discovered that it's not genetically pre specified. Because if you let's say lose an arm or you're born without legs or something like that. The map of the body reflects what's going on there so so what that means is for example. You lose an the part in your brain that represents arm gets taken over pretty rapidly by the neighboring areas. So what that means is it's experienced dependent. It depends on the amount of activity coming in. And that's how your brain puts together from its mission control center in darkness. A sense of what's going on with the body and what muscles it can drive and so it's a very flexible system. And so i tell the story of this dog who was born without front legs in the dog walks by pd on on her back. Legs presumably all dogs could do this. It's just that almost all dogs are not sufficiently motivated to do this but this particular dog needed to get to her mother and two milken food and so on so she just figured out how so what that means is dog. Brains are not genetically pre to drive dog bodies instead it just figures out how to control the muscles to get what it needs and the way we do this is with motor babbling just like we learn speech with speech babbling. And so you know you look at a baby. And the baby's just moving her arms around her legs and kicking in figuring out how the whole system works eventually. After some years figures out pretty well had dried drive that system. I tell the story in the book of the gentleman who has the world's record for the longest shot in archery. He doesn't have any arms and so he uses the bow and arrow with his legs. Not that hard figures added. Do it need really cares about it. And so he's got the world record so it's very flexible system but now the part where i have personally spent most of my time in the last ten years since we last talked. Ginger is with the flexibility of the sensory system Argument there is were born with is near knows fingertips in and so we just take these things for granted we assume. Oh yeah these are the windows onto the world that we have but in fact when you look across the animal kingdom you find all sorts of weird energy sources that can be picked up on like magneto reception picking up magnetic field of the earth for example or electro reception picking up electro goldfields or infrared or ultraviolet. Light all kinds of things that you could bring in or even a dog has these tremendous snouts that they pick up all kinds of smells. That were totally blind to so. I can't really interested in this idea. Aboud could we take information in through unusual pathways and essentially the hypothesis. That i started with is however the information gets to the brain the brain will just figure out what to do with it and so in my laboratory we started working on sensory substitution for people who are deaf so for someone who's ears aren't working in there are by the way two hundred twenty genetic reasons why you can go deaf because it's a very delicate system in there what we do is we just push the information in through a different channel. In in our case we chose the skin so we use patterns of vibration on the skin with multiple vibrant corey motors and recapture sound. We translate it and it works so we originally built this as a vest with fiber worry motors on it but eventually i spun this off out of my lab as a company called neo sensory and we built we managed to shrink this whole thing down to a wristband so the wristband has vibration motors on it and has a microphone built into it and capture sound and it turns that into these patterns on the wrist and people who are deaf can come to understand the auditory world around them they can identify. Sounds and figure out what's going on and what's weird is after. Let's say three to six months. It becomes a subjective experience. Just the way that you think of hearing now when you hear the dog bark do you feel like oh. There's vibration on my wrist and i looked at my wrist and i figure out. Okay that must be a dog. And i do a cognitive translation. They know just hearing the dog. And of course that's the same with our ears. Our ears are just picking up sound waves at the eardrum and translating that all the way into the inner ear. Inn breaks it up into different frequencies ships that off to the brain as sets of spikes electrochemical spikes and. That's all we're doing. We're just transferring the inner ear to the wrist to the skin and those spikes than traveling arm in the spinal cord into the brain and bring figures out how to interpret them. And that was all inspired by the original cochlear implants. I mean nobody thought that they would work and the fact that they did taught us some important basic lessons that you talked about in the book. That's right people actually. We're very skeptical. That coakley implants. We're gonna work because you're slipping a little strip. Electrodes ended inner ear and people thought okay. This is close. But it's not quite. What your natural biological sense organs are doing under natural circumstances so maybe this isn't going to work. I mean as recently as is thirty years ago. People were quite skeptical. That this was ever gonna happen but but actually kind of thing. I'm talking about was inspired. Even before that by for example there was a very famous paper. Nineteen sixty nine in nature. Where scientists paul balki rita put blind people into a modified chair where he had a solo annoyed grid. That would poke them in the back. So imagine twenty twenty grid of these little things that can poke in and out so he had a camera set up a video camera and whatever the camera was seeing would get translated into poking your back and people who were blind could get pretty good at understanding what was in front of the camera. Just predicated on what they felt on their skin of their back and this was quite remarkable because in some sense i mean we all play these games as kids. Where for example. Your mother draws something on your back something like that. You guess what it is but it turns out that however the information gets to the brain the brain can do its best to figure it out and so it quite interesting. And what i've discovered since that time by the way is that this idea actually reaches back to the late. Eighteen hundreds there was in poland in eighteen nineties. A scientist who took blind people and took a photo diode just a single photo diode which could tell whether it was light or dr in different degrees and translate that into sound so blind pursued. Walk around with on helmet and it would go when it was light and it would be silent when it was dark and everywhere in between and he was able to show that blind people could start to learn how to navigate with this and so this idea of pushing information into the brain via unusual channels is what got me really interested. And that's what led to to what we're doing with neo sensory and now by the way we're on wrists all over the world and what we're doing right now actually is Organizing with different deaf schools all over the world to get these in and for example philanthropist recently just donated a lot of money to get this into these different deaf schools. And so it's really lovely for me to see this kind of thing. Come out of the lab and actually get implemented on the ground another one of those classic experiments that you talked about with a slightly different twist was the one where they blindfold this sided person when they're learning braille. And the real kicker there was how fast people's cortex would change. Could you talk a little bit about what that tells us. So some colleagues might harvard. Did this experiment what has been known as if you go blind. The visual cortex doesn't remain visual. It gets taken over by hearing by touch things like that and what my colleagues were able to demonstrate much to their surprise was how rapidly this can happen. So if you take a sighted person and you put them in scanner and you blindfold them tightly. What you see is that the visual cortex at the back of the head starts responding to signals of hearing touch within about an hour which is much faster than anyone would have guessed now. Obviously it's not growing new connections new accents from the neurons into that area instead. When thing that we know is that the brain is heavily crosswired. So you have neurons from the auditory cortex from areas involved in touch and so on and these are reaching all around but what happens is when there's no more visual information coming in. Suddenly the brain says oh. I guess there's no more visual information coming in. That's fine. I guess we'll we'll start taking over that territory. That is otherwise going to be lying fallow. Anyway it turns out that this can happen really rapidly and what my student. I realized as soon as we read that paper was gosh. The problem is that the planet rotates into darkness. Twelve hours out of every twenty four. That means that the visual cortex would be endangered every night of getting taken over by hearing and touch and other things and so what we realized is this is actually the basis for dreaming. The reason we dream at night is because these very sophisticated mechanisms in the brain that are hardwired in there every ninety minutes or so. Become active and slam activity back into the visual cortex. And if you look up the circuitry dreaming you'll see that it only goes into the visual cortex and that's it because it's visual cortex. We of course interpreted as visual and presumably the content of dreams has to do with whatever's synapses are hot from whatever you've experienced in the daytime so the point is you get this activity that slamming back into the visual cortex every ninety minutes and we interpreted as being stuff in because the brain is a great storyteller. We impose narrative on top of that and we wake up and we say oh my gosh i just had this weird experience but the point is it is the visual systems way of defending itself against takeover from the neighbouring areas. And so we've now researched that and for example we compared very carefully twenty five different species of primates and look at how flexible their brain. How plastic their brains are and how much dream sleep to get every night as measured by rapid eye movement rem and so it turns out this correlates perfectly which is to say a species like the gray mouse lemur which is not particularly plastic. Learns how to walk fast and wiens quickly and reaches adolescence quickly has very little dream sleep but at the other end of the spectrum homo sapiens. We have these very long infancy six a long time to figure stuff out like how to walk wean and we have very long time to lessons on and we have lots and lots of dream sleep more than any other species. Take just a moment to remind you about my favorite sponsor. Text expand her. This is a tool that allows you to create short snippets that can expand into any sort of content. That you have to type repeatedly text. Expanders is available on. Mac windows chrome iphone and ipad. I literally use it every day. Brain science listeners can get twenty percent off their first year. Just visit text expenditure dot com ford slash podcast to learn more about text expanders. That's text expanded dot com ford slash. Podcast for twenty percent off your first year and don't forget to tell them that you heard about it on brain science of course not all. Parts of the brain are equally flexible. What determines which parts are going to be fixed or hardwired and which ones are going to stay flexible throughout life. I propose a new hypothesis about this in the book. Which is i think that it has to do with the stability of the data coming in. And what i mean by that is take something like the visual system. The visual system is not particularly plastic. Because it learns at the beginning that you have a certain number of orientations in the world mr number of angles number of colors. And that's really it like i'm talking about the primary visual cortex figures out the world and says okay got it. This is what it is and so it's quite difficult to make changes there but something like your motor system or your sensory system. Those remain plastic your whole life. Why while you rove from a baby to an adult and so there's lots of changes but you know as you go through life you get fat or you get thinner you sprain your ankle for while you break your leg for all kinds of changes again on a pogo stick a bicycle. You jump on a trampoline and so these systems have variable data coming in and so they just remain plastic for a longer time so they remain flexible. That's my suggestion for how we can understand that. And even if you look let's just within the visual system you find that areas like primary visual cortex v. one really gets crystallized early on but other parts of the visual system. Let's as you followed down along the bottom of the temporal lobe. You got these areas that code four symbols signs and faces and things like that and that remains flexible your whole life. Even when you're a hundred years old you can still learn a new face in. Learn a new company logo and things like that one of the things i found most fascinating about your book was your take on memory. Talk about memory and how that fits into this. Live wiring concept. Yeah memories an interesting thing because we've all gotten so used to talking about memory in terms of computers and so on and there's a mixture of these the simple word because computer whatever zeros and ones putting in that is exactly what gets retained but of course human memories. Totally different from that we actually. Of course don't remember most of what happens in our lives. We write down the things. That are very salient. Of course but most of the things just get forgotten they come through the system in right back out but the last sixty years has taught us is. That memory is many different things. You have short term and long term memory and within long-term member you have those things that are explicit in other words. Things that i can tell you about. Oh this is my address. This is what i did yesterday. So then you've got lots of implicit memory things that i know how to do like ride a bicycle. But i can't possibly explain it. And even within that you've got many different subcategories and it turns out the reason we figured all this out we as a community over the last x number of decades is because mostly because of nature's cruel experiments where you have people with brain damage and they lose a particular kind of memory anyway. Memory is a fascinating area but this is one of the things that the heart of brain plasticity in other words the reason the brain changes is to keep track of things presumably for the purpose of doing better and better future simulation so in other words the reason we write things down so that we can make better simulations of what's gonna come next but one of the things that i propose in the book is that we as a community. We've concentrated almost entirely on changes at the synapses between neurons connection points between neurons and in fact the entire field of artificial intelligence artificial neural networks. Everything about okay. here's neurons. They connect you. Dial the strength of that synoptic connection but in fact when we really look we find plasticity at all different levels and the only reason we all talk about synoptic. Plasticity is because that's the limits of what we can measure and so we are like the drunks looking for the keys under the street light. That's all we have access to. But in fact when activity passes through the brain you have changes not only to synapse. But also the receptors that are expressed on the neurons the distribution of those receptors the internal biochemical million. And the way those cascades change all the way down to the dna is i mentioned before. And what's called the epa genome proteins that stick around the dna itself and cause certain genes to get expressed more and others to get suppressed. And so all of these things are important. Examples of plasticity. That are happening. And all of this underlies what we think of as memory. Tell us why just thinking. The synapses doesn't work why that's not enough. The reason that quickly runs out of steam and doesn't work is because a system will get quickly overloaded and turn into memory mud when you try to put. Let's say fifty years of memories into it by changing synapses. You eventually run out of space. New run out of everything starts becoming money. But that's not what actually happens with humans. What happened with humans. Is that older memories become more stable one of the stories that telling the book is albert einstein when he died on his deathbed in princeton hospital was speaking german and all his last words were in german and unfortunately the nurse didn't speak german so we don't know what his last words were but the point is this actually happens quite a lot where people revert to their first language as their on their deathbed and this is because as you get older you forget what you did last week last month last year but you remember your childhood just fine. This is one of the first rules in neurology is that older memories are more stable. And you can't get this kind of rule out of a basic thing. We're just changing synapses in artificial neural network. Instead i propose that the fast changing parts of the brain are changing the slower parts if they continue having a particular activity than slower parts which are more conservative. Say okay well well. I'm starting to believe that. Because i'm seeing that over and over and then there's even more conservative parts that are working even more slowly beyond that and so on so down the line and that's how the whole system is actually working main thing is you know for i guess. Really since the nineteen seventies since the notion of change at a synapse was first proven experimentally for fifty years. Now we feel of said. Oh this is great. We're going to really understand memory and people everyone who studies long term potential or depression at synapses starts off their talk saying this is a candidate mechanism for memory and then it just becomes accepted as okay. That's what this is. This is the heart of memory and soon as we understand. This will understand. But what's weird is that we still have. I feel like we're not that much farther along than we were fifty years ago and so there's so much to be understood about how things get written down and why of the proposals that i make. Is that really the way to understand. All these different types of change in the brain that i just mentioned is to understand it as a pace layer system and all that means is you have things that are happening at different paces. So this is the idea that stewart brand proposed for thinking about cities along. He said look in a city. You've got something to change really rapidly like the fashion and you have some things that change more slowly which businesses earn which buildings. This is the restaurant here. And this is the bank here and whatever and then even more slowly have changes in. Let's say the buildings themselves and then even more slowly have changes in the governance of the city. All the way down to things like nature. The river is flowing through the city here but a million years ago is flowing through over here and so you've got all these different layers that are happening at different time scales and they all interact with one another. Interestingly so i propose a neural pace slayer way of thinking about this. Which is you've got. These changes that happen. Rapidly all the way to more slowly and this is really the way to think about it. I'll just mention that what i answered you a question. The thing that i think doesn't get talked about enough is the current simple idea of saying. Oh you just change synapses. Do you want better safety and privacy when you're browsing the internet if so it's time to consider a vpn or virtual private network there many vpn services out there but nord vpn is one of the top rated and also the fastest with easy one. Click access you can log in via servers in fifty nine countries and your internet provider. Can't throttle your bandwidth. i consider nord. Vpn must have when i travel and have to use public wi fi. Just go to nord. Vpn dot com for slash brain science to get a two year plan plus a bonus gift with a huge discount. There's a thirty day money back. Guarantee if it's not for you that's nord. Vpn dot com ford slash brain science. Why is it important to understand that human brains. Don't store memories. The way computers do generally. It's that when we wanted to address and understand disorders of memory with humans. We just have to make sure that we set our target correctly because otherwise if we get distracted by computer memory and think oh yeah. I totally got this. We don't understand anything about amnesia. 's and the decline of memory and alzheimer's and things like that so this is why this is why it's critical to actually understand your target right. And he had that great example from. I guess from the matrix when the guy says he's just going to upload the instructions for how to fly the helicopter and why that wouldn't really work in people because everything we learn is based on what we already know. You can't just throw something in there. Yeah exactly this is the fantasy that we've all had is this thing. Oh can just upload how to this whole book this whole history book that i need to read for the example just somehow uploaded but yeah exactly as you said the argument. I make that everything about who you are comes about from your particular individual experiences and so when you think about some historical event or how to fly the b twelve helicopter or whatever. It's all a matter of who you are so you might think about flying the helicopter as oh yeah. This is like riding a horse. And if i just pull back this way and and i might think about it as oh yeah. This is like a motorcycle and lean this way and do that and so based on our personal experiences and so i think uploading data like that might actually be possible someday. But you'd have to do system identification. I really understand. Essentially everything about your brain and everything about my brain and then individualized upload that way but there's no single sort of dump that you could just do like a software patch david. I know that you're pretty tight for time today. So i just want to ask you. What else would you like to share so that we don't accidentally miss whatever else you feel is the most important. I end the book talking about a excitement for building new kinds of technologies as we come to understand livewire and this will probably be my next company in a few years which is how to get away from just thinking about everything is hardware and software the way this works in silicon valley and worldwide of course is engineers get praised for being trim inefficient saying. Okay look clean hardware software on blah blah blah. But it's not at all what is going on in this incredibly futuristic technology that we're all carrying around on our shoulders we wouldn't even believe that any of this is possible except that we have an existence proof of it us us exactly and so my big interest is can i sit off down this different path of really trying to figure out how to build live where meaning a system that reconfigures itself for example. I have to buy a new cell phone every couple of years because you know could set a date and it gets too old to be able to do stuff. Wouldn't it be great if my cellphone. We're just constantly changing. Its own circuitry. So it was always a modern or at the end of the book. I make all kinds of suggestions. About what if you could build buildings that readjust themselves. So let's say there's a an event happening at the building and many more people are going to the restroom so you just grow more toilets in the plumbing and so on. I mean it sounds crazy. Accept that this is what our bodies do all the time. We're constantly growing new blood vessels and it's easy for the brain to just say. Oh okay. there's morning here put this here. Put their wife. Couldn't you make a live wire building. That's actually changing itself. Says oh you need more kitchen space. Let's go. I'm just gonna grow the kitchen. All of this sounds crazy now. But i suspect in one hundred fifty years. This is just going to be standard stuff. What advice would you give to a student coming along. Now who wants to perhaps get into neuroscience. Here's exactly what i would say is that it's a huge field now. I was lucky enough to get into it when it was smaller field but the key is there are so many different things you could do a neuroscience. I think the most important thing to do is to read broadly and listen to podcasts. Like this one and watch videos on youtube on and really pay careful attention to your gut and see what resonates the most because otherwise you can end up in graduate school and ended up in some lab and have a perfectly good thesis and so on but if you wanna do the thing that's going to get you up in the morning and you think is the greatest thing you've ever had the opportunity participate in. It's worth spending a lot of time. Just doing a gut check okay that that is the thing that really makes me jump out of bed and work those long hours. Yeah yeah exactly. And this is why. I'm very busy as neuroscientist. But this is why i always devote a lot of time towards writing public dissemination of science. Because i think it's really important. It's actually very clear to me who my audiences when i write and that is my younger self myself who didn't know this data at some point but was interested and would have had my mind blown by some of these facts that i didn't know existed in the world happily lots and lots of adults and older people read my books and get a lot advocate but fundamentally. I'm writing these books for the kid who thinks. Hey i want to go into neuroscience. I'm not sure exactly. What is the most interesting part to me. But here's one way of getting there and the other thing is unfortunately this is still as true as it was when i was a student. Scientists often so poorly taught because ho. Gosh we certainly are seeing the consequences of that. Right now aren't we. Yeah yeah. But i don't even think that's new. I suspect it's better now than it used to be. But when i was in school all my sites teachers thought okay. We're obligated to teach this series of facts that we need to have this outline and this and so you just get a core dump of fact. The most boring class. I ever took was biology. Which i hate to say. Because i'm a biologist now and i am so in love with biology now but boy. It is just by chance that i managed to circumvent. How terrible my education wasn't biology because it was memorizing genus and species in filing none of the good stuff so anyway. That's why i write is so that young people will at least have a chance to see. Oh my gosh. Here's how i behave in the world wide. And here's what's happening under the hood. So a question that i know is going to be in the minds of my older listeners. Okay we've heard all this about brain plasticity and of course for those of us who are getting older we wanna know. How do we keep this going. Do you have any words of wisdom. Yes yeah it turns out. There's very clear data on this and it's wonderful because the answer is challenging. The brain with the brain is trying to do is develop an internal model of the world and say okay. I got it. I know how this works and then it doesn't have to do anymore change. That's all it's trying to do is get a point where it doesn't have to change anymore and one of the interesting things about the pandemic has been that all of us got knocked off our hamster wheels back in early twenty twenty and we've had a lot of brain changes since then just predicated on needing to figure out what the heck's going on and how to get food in our fridge and had what we want to do with our jobs and our lives and how to do things on zoom in on with the key is as one gets older one has to try harder and harder to seek novelty to avoid one's own dogma to figure out how to celebrate possibility and try new things constantly and new things that are in between the levels of frustrating but achievable so it can't be something that's too easy. Obviously it's difficult. It doesn't mean anything to the brain but so people will ask me all the time. Yeah what about Shiju sudoku crossword puzzles answers. Sure until you get good at it and then stop it and do something else. So that's the key and one of the easy piece of advice. I always give people. It sounds stupid but it's just it's just it's important which is okay first of all if you're wearing a watch put your watch on the other hand. Start brushing your teeth with your other hand. Rearrange your office. You know every few months push desk to somewhere new whatever. Put your mouth on the other side of the keyboard but the printer over here the papers over there take the paintings off your wall and just swap them around in your house. All the stuff is easy to do but what it adds up to is allowing your brain to get itself off the passively resistance and having to at least notice things about the world one thing that i always try to do is drive a different route home from work every day because otherwise you become an office zombie where you're doing the same thing every day so these are all the things that are that we know from studies by the way are massively. Important is to keep the brain active and challenge. And so we see if you take somebody like say eric. Kandel who was certainly a role model of a healthy elder. He was always learning new things. That's exactly right and swimming. That's right yeah. Physical exercise is really important. It's interesting so yeah timberlake. Eric is a great example. But it's funny because even if you're a great scientist you can as you get older sort of fall into routine and say okay. This is my special. I'm gonna polka pujols all day long. And so you know it's important to be making sure you do other stuff. All the time. Francis crick was obviously. He became super famous for discovering structure. Dna z young person but he was constantly doing new things he got very interested in consciousness in meaning he would read the scientific journals each week back in the day when they were paper magazines. That arrived on your desk. He would read those and he would send handwritten letters to people. Written those papers and say i have a suggestion. You should try this experiment and you do this with the monkey new through that and you measure this. He was amazing and he was doing that well into his eighties. You know. unfortunately he died. I think he was eighty six when he passed away but he was sharp attack until the day he passed away because he was constantly using his brain one of the most inspiring things. I for the years that overlapped with him at the salkin stu the thing that was so incredible was that whenever we had a speaker come he'd sit there in the front row and sometimes because he was getting a little elderly he would drop his head like he was falling asleep and i thought. Oh there's the the cost of senescence. He's falling asleep there and then suddenly he would kind of get this whole smile on his lips and raised his hand and he would disembowel the speaker with some incredible set of questions and so anyway somebody like that kept kept his brain challenged until the day he died. I think people who aren't scientists have a bigger challenge. And i think that's also why retirement hurts so many people that's exactly right the key to seek and retirement is other people there's actually nothing is challenging to the brain as other people and that's simply because you never know when someone's gonna say unlike all the other things we do people are unpredictable and so anyway it's terrific. These retirement communities and accessing is massively important. Unfortunately what i see is often. That's not what happens because people retire. Maybe they're hearing's getting worse whatever's going on and so they feel like well you know other people are just too much trouble. I'm just not going to do that anymore. I think that we've had a pretty good conversation. And i really enjoyed the book and i'm looking forward to sharing it with my listeners. And looking forward to seeing what you're gonna right next. Thank you yeah. I'm working on my next one now. About how we perceive reality how different it is from person to person. Yeah that'll be good. Well thank you so much ginger. I really appreciate it. I want to thank david. Eagle men for taking the time to talk with us about his new book. Livewired the inside story of the ever changing brain. This book not only provides a great overview of our current understanding of brain plasticity but also shares original ideas about topics such as dreaming and memory. I highly recommend this book to listener so ball backgrounds before i review the key ideas from today's episode. I want to share a few brief announcements. I i'd love to hear from you. You can email me at brain science podcasts. At g mail dot com detailed show notes are available at brain science. Podcasts dot com along with episode transcripts and links to the entire back catalogue. If you wanna get show notes automatically every month. Please sign up for the free brain science newsletter. Just text brain science all one word to five five four four four. That's brain science. All one word to five five four four. I've been creating brain science independently since two thousand six. If you wanna learn how you can support my work please go to brain science podcasts dot com slash donations there are options for getting premium content including ad free versions of the show before i present my summary of today's episode. I want to highlight a couple of ideas that i think we may have missed during our conversation. One is that turning spikes into meaningful experience requires a feedback clue related to our actions. Eagle did mention this when he talked about motor babbling. But i think that the importance was not emphasized also. We talked about the difference between the parts of the brain that seemed to have become fixed or hardwired. And those that remain flexible. This seems to relate to the amount of expected change for example sensory areas learned that the external world is predictable while the body is constantly changing. There's also an important role for repetition on page one. Forty eagle men wrote brain circuits. Come to reflect what you do. This requires active participation. it also has to relate to survival or reward signals in other words it has to be something relevant on page one fifty three wrote without engagement. There is no plasticity so that relates to this larger principle of relevance without motivation. There is no rewiring so for example. If you're a teacher you know that inspiring curiosity is a key to learning. Another thing we talked about was the possibility that synapse change is not the only mechanism involved in memory. And i wanna talk a little bit more about why eshelman argues. That changes in synapse are not enough. I if only existing synapses changed we would not expect to see the cortisol changes that are demonstrated on brain imaging. When people learn new skills or information. As you can't see changes at the level of the synapse in brain imaging there would be no reason for neurogenesis which has been proven to occur and there would be no epa genetic changes which also occur so lot of wired the inside story of the ever changing brain by david. Egan has something for readers of all backgrounds. The term livewired captures the key idea that our brain is constantly changing its circuitry. Well this is obviously essential to our survival. It says the brain apart from the computers that have become a ubiquitous part of our daily lives it also captures the equally important idea that our dna does not provide a blueprint for the brain. It provides some basic instructions. But as egan said dina's only half the secret of life he said the other half is all around us. Because it's everything that we experience in the world that's the thing that really wars our brains to be who. We are tastes books. Give one the impression that the sensory motor cortex are hard wired but this is not exactly accurate. The brain actually learns to move whatever sort of body at has and as the example of the dog who could walk on his hind legs showed. This is driven by the needs of the person or the animal. If a part of the cortex that normally wired for particular sensation or body part loses that input it does not just do nothing it takes on new functions in fact there appears to be an ongoing competition for cortisol real estate. How is this flexibility possible. It gets back to those spikes that we talked about last month. With mark humphries no matter what the original source. All information is translated into spikes or action. Potential this means that a part of the brain that typically processes vision can process touch instead for example as he gelman said the brain just has to figure out what to do with the spikes and as i mentioned a minute ago. This has to do with feedback. We talked quite a bit about sensory substitution including the famous experiment were sighted people were blindfolded to learn braille. The most surprising finding was how fast critical change can occur in under an hour this faster than the brain can create new connections so it implies that previously inhibited connections have been activated. This has important implications especially in the field of rehabilitation. Now obviously not. All parts of the brain are equally flexible. The sensory areas become fixed over time while motor areas and memory areas. Remain more flexible. Eagle men proposed that the key determinate maybe the nature of the input once the brain learns the nature of visual information in the world. That's unlikely to change. But our body continues to change and grow and it needs to be able to adapt. Memory is an obvious area. We alive wiring is critical but the typical synoptic model of memory does not account for how human memory really works even proposed an alternative pace level model. Where processes working on different timescales interact. It's really important to understand. Living beans. Do not store memories the way a computer does in akin pewter each memory is independent but our memories are always dependent on what has gone before this is one reason why you and i will not have identical memories even of experiences that we shared edelman reminded us that keeping our brains flexible depends on presenting them with novelty if our lives are totally predictable or bring doesn't really have to be flexible since the brain is prediction machine. It loves rudd's but we have to challenge it if we want it to remain flexible. One thing that stood out for me was his comment. That the best thing we can do for our brain is interact with other people because people are always unpredictable. This puts an interesting spin on the data that shows how important social interaction is along the damaging effects of social isolation. This is something to keep in mind the next time you're tempted to avoid social interaction because it seems like too much work. That work is exactly what your brain needs. I wanted end my summary with an overview. Of what i think are the key ideas of livewired the inside story of the ever changing brain neurons fight for territory and survival. The brain maps are not genetically pre scripted but are instead molded by input. Echelman wrote brains adjusts to drive whatever body they find themselves in. This is on page one. Thirty seven the rate of change influences whether a particular area remains plastic. Finally each of us is the product of our interaction with the world and human brains. Do not store memories. The way computers due again. I highly recommend this book no matter what your background to final closing comments. I want to remind you that brain science has a free mobile app that is available for ios android and windows phones. If you have the mobile app you can access dr elman's original interview from two thousand eleven for free. Just look for the extras associated with episode. One eighty-seven also. I'd like to remind you about my book. are you sure. The unconscious origins of certainty published a second edition. Last year. it's available at brains house. Podcast dot com and on all the major online bookstores like amazon. And barnes and noble. If you'd like to get an autograph copy just email me at brains. Aunts podcasts at gmail.com. Next month's episode will be an interview. With neil seth about his new book being you a new science of consciousness until then. I hope you will check out my other podcasts. Books and ideas and grain rainbows. Thanks again for listening. I look forward to talking with you again very soon. Brain science is copyright twenty twenty one to virginia campbell. Md you may copy it to share it with others but for any other uses or derivatives. Please contact me at brain science. Podcast at g mail dot com the theme. Use it for brain. Science is mind fire written and performed by tony katrina. You can find his work at syncopation. Now dot com.

Dr ginger campbell David egan Dr gelman David eagle Aboud corey motors paul balki rita silicon valley ford human genome project Crick princeton hospital david coakley alzheimer's watson archery francis
Tribute to Ursula K. Le Guin (Rebroadcast)

The Archive Project

1:06:53 hr | 9 months ago

Tribute to Ursula K. Le Guin (Rebroadcast)

"Hey it's andrew the director of literary arts literary arts. We rely on our community. People like you for support to help make this podcast. And all our programming possible give today literary dash arts dot org forward slash donate welcome to the archive project. I'm andrew procter executive director of the arts. The archive project is a retrospective of some of the most engaging talks from the world's best writers for more than thirty five years of literary arts in portland support for the archive project is provided by cole. Haan colon shoes bags and outer wear go with you while you work your way to extraordinary more cole. Haan dot com in this episode. We feature attributed event ursula kayla. Gwen the took place on june thirteenth. Two thousand eighteen at the arlene schnitzer concert hall in portland. Perhaps best known for her cycle of books. The wizard of earth sea and other works of fiction like the left hand of darkness. League win is the author of over sixty books not only a fiction but also nonfiction poetry and books for children. Her legacy is broad and deep and it will last for generations. She is one of the greatest. American writers a pioneering voice for women and a fearless defender of free speech as a writer. She redefined entire genres while publishing nearly all of them during a career that lasted more than a half century. As a female artist she broke ground. That made new spaces for other brilliant writers to publish and have an audience writers who had been marginalized because of their gender race or chosen genre of literature as an activist. She spoke up for artists and free speech. She was never afraid to speak her mind and we are all the better for it. She was a tireless artist. Friend and citizen. It was a tremendous honor for literary arts to be asked by the league win family. To host this event la- gwen lived most of her life here in oregon and she was involved with our organization for thirty one years helping shape our programs for writers and readers as a participant a trusted adviser and a supporter. We're rebroadcasting this episode. This week to mark the three year anniversary since linguine passed away on january. Twenty second two thousand eighteen. We miss her especially right now. So in this episode we'll hear from our editor and her biographer artists influenced by her work readers who are changed by her stories and some of our closest friends. Here's the great writer molly gloss to get us started only once ever taken a writing workshop. Ten weeks one night a week. It was winter term. Nineteen eighty-one at portland state than it was. A college ursula was my teacher. I want to tell you what that was like. I was thirty six years old. A suburban housewife. I had a seven year old son. A blue-collar husband. I was a novice writer just at the start of taking my writing seriously. I knew nobody else who was writing nobody. I had written two short stories. They were the first stories. I had ever finished. One of them was a science fiction. I'd come to reading science fiction late in my thirties. I've been making my way through a list of recommended. Titles i had from the library. League win was just one name on that list. The recommended book was left hand of darkness. Slow beginning that book. I was two chapters in. And i still wasn't really caught up by it. I borrowed it from the library. The due date was coming fast. I almost took the book back without finishing it. When i think of my life as a writer. What if i hadn't kept reading but i did. It was the first time in years that a book had made me cry. I went back to the library for league win. I brought home the dispossessed. Which almost made me think i should just give up trying to ride it all. What would be the point. I would never be that good but the next look went. I tried was one of the very early ones. Maybe her first science fiction a short little novel row cannons world. I'm pretty sure it was and i thought. Oh she started somewhere. She hadn't just come out of the gate with left hand and dispossessed. I could aspire to someday write a book. Good as row cannon by the fall of nineteen eighty. I had read everything of gwynn's and then. I heard by chance about this science fiction writing workshop at portland state. Lots of people wanted in. So you had to submit a story to pass muster. I had that one science fiction story. Something else i've thought about how my life would be different. If i'd never heard about that workshop or had not written a story that could get me in the room. We met in was an ordinary school classroom. The kind with student desks arranged in rows and the teacher's desk at the front of the room my very first glimpse of ursula. She was poking her head into the room and frowning she and tony. Tony wall comas from the english department at portland state. Who was her co teacher. They soon had us shoving these desks around to try to make a circle but the room was not really big enough for twenty two desks in a circle. Well one of us. Her name was sarah. Bogle happened to work in kramer hall and she had the key to an office where there was room enough if we sat in a circle. On the carpeted floor Over there without asking anybody's permission. We all thought that was bold but of course it was only ursula. I think maybe we all worry a bit meeting a famous writer in real life. someone who's worked we've admired. We don't wanna find out that they're arrogant. But i think ursula case for a lot of us it's more that idolatry can come very close to intersecting with terror first day of class meeting her. That first time she looked sounded acted exactly as her written work had led me has led all of us to hope she was wicked. Smart completely sane and deeply kind shy or maybe introverted. Are those the same thing. i'm not sure but she was also a great big ham. She had strong opinions. She was not an arrogant. She was funny so funny and she snorted when she laughed. Not white hair yet. But graying i think she would have been fifty the format for the workshop. What she called the milford method. You can google that is common in peer critique now but it was new to me then in the one creative writing class that i had taken at portland state and instructor had lectured s from the front of the room took our papers away and brought them back marked up with red ink in the milford. Method ursula method. No lectures were peers and we went around one at a time talking about the story that we had all read ahead of time. What parts of the story. We like best places where we were surprised or annoyed or confused. Ursula always spoke last. She didn't want to influence anyone else's comments and i learned i know about critique everything by listening to her. She always considered what a story was about what the writer was trying to do. And then she tried to help the rider. Get there without making it into her story. The level of her comments always matched the level of the writing. If it was a strong story from skillful writer. She could drill down. She would drill down even to a single word or the smallest wobbles of tone or syntax. A story with lots of problems and a writer still a novice ursula could always find at least one really good thing in it maybe only a phrase or a sentence or a similarly and she would say why it impressed her. Here's a really fine sentence. And here is why she would say and then she would use that fine sentence or phrase or similarly to make. Some larger point illustrates something about the craft of writing and then she would zero in on just one problem in the story. One among the many she would suggest maybe a point of view change a paragraph dropped to end the story sooner or maybe moving a scene around to a different spot in the story and we would all see right away. Oh this one change would immediately make the story better not fix it not entirely but lifted up a great big notch. She was never cruel but she could be emphatic. She had told us when our own story was up for discussion. Don't explain don't defend one time. A writer couldn't keep from arguing with us all. She said she had written the story that she wanted to write. And that what we were all telling her about the problems we had with. The story didn't really make any difference to her and she went on like this explaining and defending and ursula grew fairly annoyed. She said it sounded to her. As if this writer trusted only her own judgement and was writing to please only herself which she said was perfectly fine perfectly okay but it's a bit like singing in the shower she said. And if you're going to sing in the shower then you really shouldn't be asking all these hardworking critics and she swung her hand out meaning all of us to spend their time making serious music review. I remember the. It didn't come back the next week ursula and i would become friends. We were friends for thirty five years over those years we were in several critique groups together prose and poetry both peer groups although i think the people in this auditorium all know that ursula has no peers and i'm pretty sure she never really needed our input but i know she enjoyed the process. Most of those groups were formed at her instigation in the milford method versus method. There is an absolute rule that wile discussion is going around the room. The writer of the story or the poem has to keep silent only after everyone else has had their say and the rider speak but in recent years in our poetry group. She sometimes couldn't keep from breaking her own rule. And when or if one of us could work up the nerve to call her on it she would clap her hand over her mouth to quiet whatever she was in the middle of saying and to smother her laugh that little snort of a laugh which is only one of the many things i will miss. Thank you writer. Jonathan lethem if you live long enough. I think you're destined to feel that. Your life is a bridge in time. I've begun to experience the sensation myself. And i'm only in my fifties. This can take a generic form as when say you understand your parent or grandparent recalls a time before telephones television or in my personal instance when i learned my father had seen charlie parker play in a small nightclub in kansas city. Or as my grandchildren may be amazed to learn. Should i live long enough. That i spoke League wins memorial in the inner life of a person. This thing sensation can be much less simple to name a form of incommensurable knowing that one has lived to feel a variety of different versions of what it means to be human to feel the past beside also through you and to have to learn to abide with that incomensurate -bility for many people. This may be a difficult sensation to navigate little onto to name. Many can only protest at its dispossessing force. A small number of people and in my own experience ursula was foremost along them are those whose bridging capacity seems not thrust on them by the depredations of time but rather something innate embraced a thing taken perhaps even at a young age and expanded upon as a gift and forming a bridge greatly transcending their own lifespan. While on the one hand ursula would always be the first reminded that she wasn't born early after experience her father's period of involvement with the man known as the the so-called last of his tribe. She seemed in some way to embrace and embody ancient curiosity and contemplation within her person. And then as we all know to project them splendidly into future human possibilities into that form of delicately political dreaming known as utopia to put it more simply ursula present that encompassed the past and the future more of it than seemed possible and in every gesture in her work. She seemed capable of gently welcoming you into that embodiment descriptions and a quick anecdote before i joined the rest of you as listeners. When i was attempting to enter the science fiction field. I was troubled. A young man in many ways. I wanted to enter the field but not share in. Its stigma the model. That ursula offered the dignity and clarity of her bridging work between those exiles. Working in the fantastic tradition in the united states and the literary establishment was the most dignified and appealing possible when she reached individually to me as she did with so many other younger writers. It was as if i'd been allowed to borrow her dignity against my own impoverished share. I was full of political rage and political absolutism. I was pretty sure the only kind of writing that could represent the discordant resistant sensation in may was distortion in the sixties. The science fiction field had split into two camps signed petitions published in the magazines one four and one against the american war in vietnam. This is really as yogi. Berra says you can look it up. The techno tokens the space race. Writers were on the whole in favor of our participation in the war and the neurotic paranoiac. Dystopia were mostly signatories against it. I knew which team i was on. As silly as it may seem when i discovered the existence of those two petitions i conducted a political purge against my own teenage bookshelves to put it. Unattractively took names. I spent a couple of glamorous occasions with ursula or at least they seem glamorous to me was at a long table in the garden of the california country house. She and charles kept. I believe it had been her parents. I was the youngest at a table of invited writers. But we were all there as if in some enchanted ingmar bergman film one of the happy ones under the grace of ursula charles has another evening. She and i shared a stage at the new school. For social research in manhattan. But the visit that stays with me. Most is the least glamorous. i can't remember how it came about. But she and i. And i believe karen joy fowler ate dinner at a pedestrian thai restaurant in berkeley one night. With paul and karen anderson the andersons were science fiction royalty but they were also the two top signatory's thanks to their place in the alphabet of the pro vietnam war petition and i held myself apart from them. They were on the wrong team. I warned you. This was an unattractive story for me. Personally while karen anderson oblivious to my aloofness paul was a shy and sensitive man. He was also deeply erudite man. Knowledgeable in history and myth and ursula not only delved deep into conversation with him. she drew me in insisted. Without shaming me that i participate this was bridge work of an intimate variety. This was a utopian operation. A local utopia. Or what the anarchists sometimes like to call a temporary autonomous zone. The reason i'm willing to air out this tiny embarrassment and my own poultry. Epiphany that paul anderson was more than worth my time. He might have a lot to teach me. The reason i'm in your presence tonight is simply that i want to say that. For all the fastness of her spirit and imagination and utopian desire utopian desire tempered as it must be by a deep vigilant knowledge of dystopia ursula. Didn't only elaborate her bridges in the air. She elaborated them. In the space between people an appetite for utopia and knowledge of what it might take to even reach for something other than that which which we see before us entered the room with ursula gwen everywhere she walked. Thank you writer and editor kelly link. It's an extraordinary thing to be here to celebrate or so kayla gwen tonight with all of you here in the audience and with all of you all over the world who are watching the livestream. This is the second time in the last five years that i've been in the company of people who have come together to honor her. The first time was in two thousand and fourteen in new york when she received the national book foundation's medal for contribution to american letters. She gave an electric speech burn burner. She asked the publishing world to consider the value of art and literature. Above the profit motive. She asked the publishing world to be better than it is. She spoke of the power literature to resist to open doors. She thanked the national book foundation for the beautiful reward. She said we who live by writing and publishing want and should demand our fair share of the proceeds but the name of our beautiful reward isn't prophet. Its name is freedom. I know that at the time. She wasn't entirely pleased to have to leave portland and travel to new york to her medal. She was tired of travel but at the national book award ceremony. She was radiantly pleased to be honored to be listened to to be recognized for the work of her life. She knew her own worth. Roger angell speaking about his stepfather e b white at weights memorial said. If andy wait could be with us today. He would not be with us today. But i can't help imagining how pleased ursa would be again here in this moment. Could cheapie here to see all of you as a writer and a builder of community of raiders. Lebron is at the heart of the canon of books that i love best. We all have personal cannons. Gwen is bedrock too. Many of us she had an unmatched appetite incapacity for imagining how the world could be different. And how if the world was different. The people who lived there might be different to earth. See or sonnia geffen. All the world's the hamish cycle klatt send oregon her fiction. Her point of view offered still offers will always offer her a vision of community to those who are far from it. The scope of lebron's vision allowed room for hope for evil her grief for assistance change in person. She was earthy profound plain-speaking impatient with foolishness but appreciative of gossip in word play. She could've been a character in a story by chaucer. Chaucer had written stories about portland or science fiction conventions she would have been a remarkable politician or psychologist or map-maker magician but of course because she was a writer she was all of these and more. She wrote terrifying witty dragons of an earthly beauty because she was herself a terrifying witty and beautiful dragon. The most drag emiss- person. I've ever met my husband and i run a small press and in two thousand nine we have been corresponding with laghouat about publishing a two volume collection of her short stories. At the time i was pregnant was on bedrest and then i gave birth to a daughter at twenty four weeks. My husband and i had not yet spent much time thinking about names when we had to come up with one on the spur of the moment. We named her annabel link grant. When gavin emailed the guin to apologize for having been out of touch while our or sla was in the queue and tell her the name we chosen like when responded ursula annabel link grant is to dactyl followed by a spongy. I like it over the course of a decade. We published four books with gwyn her translation of the argentinian. Raider and halacha gordon. Sure a two volume selection of her short stories and a collection of nonfiction. We sometimes had to pinch ourselves to believe our good fortune. And i think if we had ever said that to gwynn she would have offered depend pinch hard. I know to that. Many of the raiders that we've published sophia samatar larry marks karen joy fowler than a seeing ted chiang like me profoundly inspired by gwynn's writing but then it's hard to think of writers or people who love books but she did not touch. I know that some of you gathered here in the audience or elsewhere in the world watching those of us on stage who have been given the chance to talk about look win for middle. I cited foundational fire-breathing. Gwen have your own stories about her. She was a generous correspondent and reader and teacher and friend. I imagine that after tonight is over and done with we will go on telling stories about her and hearing stories about her and rating stories in books that we would not have thought to write if she had not made such an expensive and inviting an idea engendering space for us to inhabit as writers and artists. I know that we will go on revisiting the landscapes and characters and concepts and books that only exist because she saw them in her dragon mission mind and breathed life into them. Earth see arsenia geffen all the worlds of the heinous michael klassen oregon earth editor andrea shows. It's a tremendous honor to be speaking here today. It's also a complicated charge to be the voice of corporate america at a win tribute. I think really the only way to honor her is to try to live up to her model of truth telling and forge ahead like many of us. I first encountered her as a young reader. Who was looking for other worlds but she came into my professional life twelve years ago with an email fittingly as that was how our relationship primarily unfolded author and editor. Michael kendall had brought ursula to harcourt and worked with an in house editor on the last two earth see books and unchanging planes. She then published the annals of the western shore trilogy with our children's division losing touch with the adult side when the in house editor. Jen charlotte left. Then i arrived and in two thousand six michael reached out. Might there be someone who would want to read the adult novel. That ursula had just finished publishing depends more on luck and timing than anyone is willing to admit and it was luck really that brought me or sula of course that situation an editor gone a new one who may or may not be sympathetic to your work was not necessarily lucky for her always and i think it sheds some light on her sometimes weary relationships with publishers. She had great editors and champions to be sure. Many houses small and large have published her with distinction for decades. But when i look at the library of america chronology of her work with which i highly recommend they've done an amazing job alongside the accolades and awards. I also see a writer who again and again had to start over with new editors and hope that each one was the person who could. We've that delicate web of support of excitement of institutional commitment. That book must have to succeed and to flourish for years. It's a lot of extra work and it would have taken a lot of luck for it to always go right. That history made it all the more remarkable to me that she greeted my excited introductory email one of god only knows how many in her career with the optimism and the warmth that she brought to our whole relationship. She said if. I told you the book was based on or derived from or playing around with virgil aeneid. Would that sound very depressing. I reassured her that nothing that she could send would depress me and a few weeks. Later i received the novel in a manuscript box. I was awestruck. As i opened it just on principle frankly but as i started to read it i felt my hair. Actually stand a little bit on end. The mastery on those pages was like nothing. I had experienced before and will probably never experience again. Leukaemia given not a word to speak in the aeneid speaks from the mythical past from her very first line. In that manuscript. I found out much later. That ursula had relearned latin and made her way through the aeneid ten lines a day to prepare to write it. It was her twenty first novel and it would be her last. Every writer is different in how they respond to edits. And i have worked with some brilliant writers who nod quite seriously as i talk about this or that and then completely ignore me and i wouldn't have blamed her for doing doing the same thing. But solicited my thoughts from the very beginning and welcomed the conversation. She was deeply engaged. It will not surprise you with every issue. I raised however smaller large. She responded to my query about water spirits with a long explanation about the sacred in the early roman world war linking it to shinto and the rituals of the pueblo people in a casual pedicle. She answered another query about the rules of the books. Universe with good question. Must think about this which frankly is a line. That is the pinnacle of my editorial career. We went back and forth electronically like this for a month trading responses in different colored funds at some point. In every edit your notes stop helping the author to make their book what they want it to be and start creeping into the territory of what might have been a great idea if they had written a different book. Altogether ursula recognized that moment instantly and stopped my trampling of her garden with great good humor although with also the sharp clarity that i suspect had protected her vision from the diluting effect of her. Many collaborators over the years as michael kandel said she has an open mind but she also knows her mind ursula rousing critique of publishers in the book industry which i was also lucky. Enough to hear was truly a barn burner. You'll see a little bit of it later. And if you haven't seen the whole thing. I recommended and for all the pleasures of our editorial collaboration. I also knew that in some ways to publish at a big commercial house was always to fail her. Packaging promoting marketing a work. It's a necessity and it can be an art form in itself but it is also a reduction and publishing categorizes relentlessly covers were also always particularly tricky ariza prejudice about race gender genre. Imagine the dissonance for a writer whose whole life and work fought. Every one of those simplifications covers need to say something to a reader at first glance again that sort of compression and and simplification is the inverse of her art for years. She battled to hafer characters represented as dark-skinned as she'd written them and i would argue that her books were always envisioned as innovatively as they could have been also just simply because she was a woman not to mention genre writer. She fought for her work herself. Of course One of the many email exchanges we had about the earth see backlist came with the subject. Line the old cow kicks up and her insistence that the labels failed not only her work but also failed. Readers is what brought us to this place with the labels have been transcended both for her books and for so many writers who were able to disregard them because of her example publishing has responded to one of my great accomplishments in our eight years of working together was to helping build a bridge between houghton mifflin harcourt and simon and schuster so the earth's books could be published as a united whole an unusual corporate partnership. Which is i am delighted to see his continuing with the addition of the illustrated or c. Coming later this year exactly the art is out in the lobby and you really must look at it. Lavinia might have been. In retrospect her books to appear before our world fully became what she had helped to make it and finally saw her work as she had insisted that it should be seen all along the thrill of getting an email from her was fresh every time and she was one of the great correspondence. She wrote me a delightful note about feeding chickens when she returned from a trip to harass wants. When i got to close the bantam rooster would advance menacingly and stiffen his waddles and make horrible noises and then he'd assault my ankle so i kicked him which made him so furious. All he could do was stand. There all puffed out shouting bad words at me like a tiny little republican on fox tv. Another favorite came when she was doing an appearance with margaret. Atwood if you could ask margaret a question what would it be. She says we should talk about what is fiction. What a science fiction and is the human race doomed. but i'm looking for a few lesser questions in case we exhaust fiction and do in twenty ten. When she sent him the poetry collection that would become finding my elegy she wrote started with poetry and apparently going and when i became another one of her editors who left her in my move to viking. We finished as we had begun with an email. This one painfully characteristically generous in her good wishes for me in one of the many tributes this january lauren miller wrote part of la gwynn's greatness lay in her ability to crack. Open the shells. we didn't even realize it can find us. Publishing may never be equal to the sheer bassus and variety of her talent. But she left us with everything. We need to crack our show author and activist leader marisha so honored to be here tonight to celebrate the many gifts that kayla gwen has all of us with. I did not know her personally. I just want to be honest. I met her once. And i'm sure she wouldn't never remembered fan girl moment because i i think i didn't embarrass myself too badly But i carry that meeting with me. But i have also been connected with ursula the majority of my life through her work both her writing and the work. She did decrease change and community. I was a student of hers like countless us without her knowing my name or my face much of what i do now is around the very modest goal of changing the world. I see science fiction visionary fiction as an integral to that visionary fiction is about science fiction and social change together recognizing we need imaginative spaces. Sifi if we're going to build new just futures we have to have space to dream the change we will build. And of course. I learned so much of this. Is liz ratings and i also learned it from seeing how long moved in the world seeing her remain. Accessible to young writers organizers community groups even as there was more and more demands on her time she worked both to create space to dream and to support building those dreams into existence. Salon once said i think hard times are coming when we will want the voices of writers who can see alternatives to how we live now and see through. Our fear stricken society and it's obsessive technologies to other ways of being and even imagine some real grounds for hope we will need writers who can remember freedom. Poets visionaries the realists of a larger reality. It is the truth. Telling and the dreaming ursula speaks of together that is so powerful so subversive. We must be honest about the hard times that are coming. That are already here that have been here. We cannot allow oppression to ever be rationalized away but this is not all there is. This is not all we are we can transcend the smaller reality for the larger reality ursula. Spoke of it is just waiting for us to build a path for it to enter this world but to do so we have to have principles we have to have integrity and we cannot compromise those not even for a nanosecond. I learned that from earth. La as well. The radical politics in her work were always front and center attempt to hide it. Dress it up so that it might pass unnoticed by those with power. She put her politics on displayed. Proudly this is an invaluable gift. She has left us. She has shown us how to write beautifully. Deftly eloquently while also writing without compromise writers are so often pressured to be accessible rather than visionary if they have radical politics there at best to hide them and at worst to hit the delete key arsala was having. None of that ursula was always clear about institutional power inequalities. She was always clear about which side she stood on and she was clear that we humans could dream our way out of almost anything and ursula taught me to interrogate my dreams as well to take responsibility for my dreams to question my idea of perfection. Utopia what am i fighting for octavia butler once said. She found the idea of utopias boring. But i learned from ursula. Is that the idea of uninterrupted. Utopia is also dangerous because utopias or too often built on the marginalized the silence. The oppressed as she illustrated so powerfully in her story. The ones who walk away from home loss. The day a society accepts the pain of even one as a necessary evil is the day humanity is as someone. Involved in community organizing. I return to earth. Sylla's book the dispossessed again and again and again and again the very subtitle sums it up an ambiguous utopia the fact that this anarchist society had become complacent and self satisfied thinking they had achieved the perfect society and that this became the very thing that move them further away from the values and ideals they held it is through the constant questioning of ourselves our communities societies that we move towards our best selves ursula of the anarchist society in our shows the complexities the nuances the beauty and the flaws. She presents it lovingly but honestly she loves an rs too much to lie because she truly believes that analysis capacity to change the book ends. Not with this disillusion. But with hope but the dispossessed doesn't have any neatly packaged ending and neither do most of ursula works. there are no simple answers and the complex messy answers we do find in. The stories are not handed to us. We have to discover them ourselves. If we ever find a neat ending in life it is probably ally just as the best books do not end but allow us to imagine beyond that last page revolutions do not end because there are always new ideas to be sought new concepts of justice to be centered often when i say there is no end to struggle. There's no end to the work of social change folks here at in the voice of doom. There will be no end to the work. You must do. I don't i don't see it like that. But i learned through ursula ratings that the responsibility the responsibility of the writer of the dreamer of the change maker does not have to feel heavy or tedious. Holding the future of the human race is a serious business but we can still find ways to laugh along the way and work shows that eternal cycles of change mean we have infinite possibilities to reaffirm to be excited by something unknown to find new joys to discover and rediscover collective truths in that way. Ursula is such a generous writer she create stories that challenge us to imagine ourselves in them to think about the complex choices and and once the book is done. She leaves space for us to take what we need. She allows us to live with her stories to have them whisper to us and become part of our dreams. Her stories help us to both. Remember freedom and dream freedom and they help us to turn those dreams into all of our larger lived reality. I am so incredibly internally thankful that i will always be part of my dreams of freedom thank you writer. Daniel older thank you. What a tremendous honor. I'm also just so happy that we can gather together this many of us to celebrate a warrior story master and a time so difficult and so painful for so many people. Each one of you is a for coming out tonight for watching the livestream for joining us to mark this occasion. When you are newly hatched baby writer which i may or may not still be depending on who you ask in which version of writer years. We're going by dog or cat. You look out into the world wondering where and whether you and your stories belong in it. Who fits into your personal pantheon of patron saints whose solemn or smiling stained glass faces. You'd like your own to be enshrined beside when you go. Who is telling semblance of the truth about the world as you know it and what you find out very often is that so many writers have been lying to us all along squeezing which you know are complicated truths delicious. Ambiguous realities about life into very easily digestible tasteless. Little pills simple inoffensive comfortable dead and then you find and surreptitiously borrow your sister's tattered copy of a wizard of earth c. Which i may or may not have done and may or may not still have on the third shelf of my bookcase. Next octavia butler's wild seed. Please don't tell her. I think she's looking for it. Anyway you find it and you open it and allow yourself to become immersed and then utterly lost in those pages in that world in the depths and complexity of its refusal to accommodate easy answers. It's lumbering brisk beauty. And unstoppable directness. Where so many fantasies for so long gave us heroes that were both appallingly flatly good and overwhelmingly white white white collectively driving home. The most unsubtle list of points ursula k league win gave us get a fully fleshed out human who was blatantly unambiguously dark skinned and it was simply a truth. Not a plot point geds. Skin color mattered enough to her that she went out of her way to be ahead of the curve publicly slamming the television adaptation of earthy for whitewashing him a loud voice in a silent white sea. And where so many fantasies for so long have driven the already unsubtle point even further home and urged us to look outward and destroy that snarling non white coated earth sea. And i apologize for the spoiler but really it's your own fault if you haven't read earth see asked that we look inside. Ourselves confronted that shadow within that causes disconnect and disaster would left unaddressed and rather than simply annihilated. It asks that we allow it back in to become a part of us once again to find a sense of whole with it and in a word balance if there is a word for the opposite of condescending and i don't think there really is one that fully encompasses it. That is what ursula gwen imbued her work with. No matter what age she was writing for rather than talk down to us she demanded with love and laughter and some sternness that we step up our game and rise to the occasion. She was able to ask this without seeming overbearing. Quite simply because by some magic. She knew we had it in us and she was willing to reach out her small wrinkled hand to help us up. It's not just that we read her stories and believe in them feel seen in them. See the world through them. It's that her stories intern. Believe in us believe in our best selves and address that part of us that had perhaps been hiding all along but dying to come out and play would a manifest and many headed gift. Mesler gwynn's body of work has been continues to be will go on to be for a very very long time for this broken world. What a necessity. One of those many gifts is what i'll address. Close this out. It is the gift of permission because for us newly hatched just starting out writers with a lot to say with words and ideas and opinions and quite frankly rage pouring out of us no idea what to do with it all and so few models of writers who will even admit that this world is indeed tangled beautiful disaster to see a writer who was unafraid to speak truth to power is crucial a roadmap through the wilderness. Because of course it's not just earth see. All of ursula league wins stories. Essays and poems. Refuse the easy outs subvert. The simple crusty tropes. We've all grown used to and push into new ground. They complicate the too often. Simplified notions of power spirituality magic voice identity gender and race all well tell marvelous tales of magic and wonder and dragons and in so doing they give permission to the rest of us. We can do it too. We realize there is room in this broken world for our stories in part because misled gwyn made room and that's one of the greatest gifts in artists can give the world ursula. Gwen wrote my favorite closing sentence of any essay. Ever and i'll borrowed here to say goodbye to woman. A woman that i never met but love deeply whose words and stories have been a helping hand a map through the wilderness a vessel carrying out into the far reaches of the galaxy and whose words and stories will outlive not only her but thankfully all of us to into the spaceship. Grainy thank you biographer. Yuli phillips the first time. I really talked to her sula. I came out west and veteran cannon beach where she had a house and it seemed like everything i'd ever imagined about her. I met her on the edge of the world in a little house in a lonely spot because it was february and just through the pine trees the waves were crashing on the sand and we were there at the uppermost west sitting in the kitchen table drinking tea and talking about writing only when i told her how magical it it seemed to me to have met her in this place the farthest west. She laughed and said oh. That's such an east coast view. Why would the westby the end and not the beginning so she asked me to beer biographer and ever since then i've been thinking about the shape of her life story when right. Biography tried to give it a beginning a middle and an ending but real lives lived that way we double back on ourselves. We run into dead ends. We go in circles lives. Don't want to be arranged neatly from adp and it's especially hard to write the life of someone who is just told you what you thought was. The end was really the beginning. So how does she begin as a child ursula crowbar sitting on a roof in berkeley gazing out over san francisco bay to the west seeing the beauty and strangest enough that magical place california where she was born. You could trace align on the map of all the places that she lived. I know she thought of her character gets life as having a spiral shape as he moved around. Earth see from east to west. She went east and went to europe and lived in georgia. We're charles was from and when she first saw portland looking out the window an airplane she cried because it was so beautiful and it was going to be your home. Maybe here middle point was home. She had a talent for feeling at home whether it was in a shabby student hotel in paris or the house in the napa valley that was at the heart of her world. She told me. I have never lived anywhere. I really felt not at home except for moscow. Idaho and even that had redeeming features. She left portland. And it's wonderful to see how much portland left her but home wasn't only physical place for her. She wrote that going home is to be quiet to be still home is where it goes. When he has done with doing she wrote home. Is the place where you know. Things are done rightly done well. She wrote that. Home is imaginary place that we make real by dreaming by telling its stories so his home the middle or the start or the ending once in the middle of sorting out would seem to me the paradoxes of her life. I told her. I felt like i was writing a narrative that was all middle. It seemed like the model of narrative that she wants wrote about the hoop snake. That creature of western legend which puts his tail in its mouth and travels by rolling the only clue she ever gave me an our hours of talking about her life to how i should write. It was when i said that. And she said. I think you're onto something there. In many ways. The middle point for her was her writing. She wrote about balance in the world and writing was her own balance point. It was also her gift. A friend recently asked me if i had ever felt the way some women in particular do that. She wasn't entitled to write that. She should sacrifice that part of her inner life to the world's neat no. I said i don't think she ever felt that she loved being with her children. And with charles. I used to talk to her on the phone and she would always end saying i have to fix lunch for charles now and she always sounded so pleased when she said it but that none of that changed her sense. That writing was what she had to do. She said her writing was the thing that makes itself through me. It's the particular thing i was sent here to do. I guess at some point. I have to come to the ending. But it's not easy to think about something i never wanted to happen. I don't want to have to be here. I don't want to have to write about her ending. I want her to be here admonishing us and teaching us and showing us with all the power her imagination how to see from other points of view and simply want to tell you that. This is the beginning. I listened to that amazing speech you just heard and i think that's the voice of someone who's beginning something sometimes i think for like oto. The anarchist theorist in her story the day before the revolution otas the one who says that famous paradoxical line that is written on her gravestone to whole is to be part true. Journeys returned as an old woman. Oto here's the sound of the general strike and she knows then that the change she has always worked for. We'll come after she's gone and this ending gives me hope that we can move forward on. All the paths showed us and that we can begin. The revolutionary works that she gave us to to but road other endings to i think a lot about the ending of her book the other wind when they break down the wall of stones. The wall that separates the living from the dead. The wall that had to be broken so the dead could be hard if the living world so the dead wouldn't be too far from us and they wouldn't be alone. You know their times the books at some of the endings when it seems like the world will lose its magic it seems like all the magic out of the world and i asked her about that once and she said no she said versus magic will always be. There will always be refilled and restored last week. Her last earth story was published. She wrote a couple of last or seat books but she kept coming back to it and she said she wasn't writing anymore but she wrote one last earth z story and it tells about gad coming to the end of his life he thinks back over his life and he remembers his book boat. Look far that took him oliver ac- from east to west and he has a vision of himself sailing to the true west where there is only the sea and the sea wind and maybe we could take his words for her words and give her that ending. We could save her as she says of him. She would go on this time until she sailed into the other wind she went forward onward the way she had to go writer china. Able when as rita's. We talk about gwen. We tend to talk. Not only about the share quality but about the politics of her work her fury and has sensitivity to issues race and gender exploitation and violence injustice and oppression. And it's quite right that we should do so lewin's incomparable. Work was inextricable from her commitment to justice and her yearning for social emancipation but she was never po faced and not to mention certain other key qualities that accompanied that passion and that commitment would of course be to diminish her here. What i want to do is draw attention to her capacity to astonish including perhaps herself her curiosity generosity and his sense of humor. Because it would be remiss if in stressing her importance to us and to literature. We didn't mention how very funny she could be. I'm going to try to illustrate these other qualities of win by revealing a literary secret. We don't generally consider sheila a rights. Reporer but i know that i'm not the only person for whom one of the earliest encountered strongest and most influential terrorists in fiction is what daniel mentioned shadow. This is the entity of ancient darkness that through arrogance get inadvertently looses on the world in wizard of. I cannot describe the breathlessness with which i read and reread. Its emergence those horrifying descriptions quote through that bright. Misshapen breach clambered something like a clot of black shadow. Quick hideous a lump of shadow like a black beast though it seems to swell and shrink and it had no head or face. Only a blind unformed snout without lips or ears or eyes and it crawled on terrible talent pause for decades at least as much as the ghosts of james or the tentacles of lovecraft ursula shadow has haunted culture and me this baleful animal emptiness that hounds get across the world has hounded me to in my dreams and a long time ago. I took the opportunity to tell us. Sheila how powerful an impact. That presence has had emma response. She disclosed to me the secret of the shadow. It's a secret. But i have carried for years and that i will now reveal yes. She said. The shadow that was inspired by the tar degrade now as many of you obviously know the tardy grade is a tiny animal. Perhaps half a millimeter long and its renowned in particular for two things one is that it is spectacularly resilient it can go dormant and survive in the cold of space itself and the other is that it is thoroughly adorable. This is the taty grade as you can see. This is a tiny piece. That looks like nothing. So much as a many legged. Gummy bear with the highly unusual. Waddling shuffle. that gives it. Its name todd degrade meaning slow stepper. This is famously. The cutest ambulatory motion in the microscope. Kingdom and suicide unending delight to me and i hope to you and a delight. That sheds light on us. Sheila's creativity that geds nightmare. That entity of formless tara the predatory void the haunt of our childhoods is born of that micro cutie also known as the water bear and the moss piglet and this secret. Narcissus that i'm sharing with you has a coda and it's one that's based on a startling case of parallel evolution of inspiration. This is a story of culture. I is high tragedy and then as cheerful foss in two thousand and fifteen. I wrote in tremendous excitement with news of the new movie called harbinger down. This is an amiable underwhelming piece of science fiction monster schlock set at sea that currently languishes with an aggregated critic score of about forty three percent on rotten tomatoes. Not wholly unfairly. And what i said then was. It is my duty to inform you that these many years later others have come up with the idea to the monsters in harbinger down a mutated tardy grades. My patience and affection for being movies is very great. And i had a very good time watching harbinger down but still i couldn't in conscience exactly recommended. The script for example includes this exchange how does wail scientists know how to do makeup. before i was scientists. I was going to school to study makeup so the movie. I regretfully warned. Her was not terribly good. Response was immediate. Will shame on them. She wrote back for degrading the tardy grade thus the first grade tardy greatest file in fantastic kept faith with her own monsters and with their sources and chided the second. Todd degraded file for letting those monsters down but this coda to has a coda. Because her email didn't end there. I have to say. She went on with enthusiasm. The title harbinger down is fine. Go somewhere between jane austen and the rabbit fellow that latter of course being a reference to watership down and the thing is the thing is that anyone can laugh at monster movies. As part of the point. I do we all do it. But at a moment when the snia is becoming the default cultural mode. It takes someone extraordinary to laugh. Yes and yet. Still with instant playfulness but thoughtfulness to dignify such so-called low culture in such kind and funny way. When i remember kayla gwen yes i remember the pocket. Great writer poet. The sas the teacher the polymath the inspirational radical. But i also always remember the person who having given a sublime could still find shreds of that sublime in the ridiculous that came after it. She was a trenchant cooley. Devastating critic who never bit her tongue when she was unimpressed. But sheila was also someone with the humor and generosity of spirit to find not just richard adams but jane austen hub beloved jane austen in the cheesiest creature feature. That was a special hour. Long tribute to writer ursula kayla gwen that took place at the arlene concert hall in june. Two thousand eighteen. This has been literary arts the archive project. It's a retrospective of some of the most engaging talks from the world's best writers for more than thirty five years of literary arts in portland. Join us next time for the archive project a literary arts production in collaboration with oregon public broadcasting to hear more from the archive project. Subscribe wherever you get. Your podcasts support for the archive project is provided by cole. Haan on a mission to fuel. Your big ideas more at cole. Haan dot com. Our show is produced by crystal glory for radio and podcast with production oversight by amanda bullock and support from liz olafsson special. Thanks to joe. Not roy and alana falin and the entire literary arts staff board and community. This show would not be possible without them. Thanks also to the band emancipated for our theme music. And thanks to all of you for listening. I'm andrew procter and this has been another episode of the archive project from literary arts. Join us next time and find your story here.

ursula portland national book foundation karen joy fowler gwynn Gwen kayla gwen karen anderson andrew procter Haan colon ursula kayla arlene schnitzer concert hall earth sea ursula gwen molly gloss Tony wall comas kramer hall milford cole oregon
Quasar #36

Capes & Lunatics: Sidekicks

56:13 min | 1 year ago

Quasar #36

"This episode of keeps a Lunatic. Sidekicks is brought to you by tweaked. Audio get awesome headphones. Get tweaked audio dot com and use the coupon code southgate get thirty percent off reshipping in a lifetime warranty where it can get there. Through the link on our website Southgate Media Group dotcom Parak- annual listing of a Haitian lunatic sidekicks podcast. What about our QUASAR podcast autozone about our part when do bonded transforming weapons ongoing battle over how would welcome back to the quantum zone episode one hundred and to build joining me as always master the quantum zoned and master of the live streaming of first episodes is me? Matt? This is mad because we were. We were talking about so talking Cardigan because the boys saw the first episode behind a lot of you were. It's only it's all like I said Zoe. Only three episodes out so far they drop every Thursday case myself. That's right. Yeah that's right because I got an early Valentine's prison for my wife. I go to subscription. Cbs All access. Luke what else do they have on there is a CBS shows? I mean they they have The other star Trek Guest Star Trek Star Trek discovery yet. That's telling well like I've seen the first one for free when it first came out. I wasn't impressed but once I got to the second episode. I it's getting better. It's good and then I just started the second season they brought in Anson Mount as Christopher Pike Captain Pike Aright Cool. The Guy who played the guy who played back blackboard on in humans. He's a lot better here. Might be the material. I don't know you can talk to make this. Oh I saw little movie this weekend. Birds OF PREY perhaps. Yeah see one of the Oscar. The Oscar nominated fills out. Okay what do you think is I heard mostly thing so I know that you had some trepidation. Because the characters little difference in terms of how they're portrayed little little too much harley spoiler free overall opinion okay little too much Harley Quinn. They could've fleshed out some of the other characters more. Like the birds of prey title of Yes. Did you see that saw article tonight? I guess in theaters now. We're all scrambling I guess. Now they're putting Harley Quinn more in the beginning of the title. It's like if that was. Yeah but yeah I mean I I liked it I liked the hunters and Black Canary. But it's like could have been flushed out way more. Yeah it was just a feathered out. Oh I only did like got thirty. Three million domestic this weekend. I but I think it's already made. Its money back stab with their saying. That cost eighty to make and I think it may eighty or eighty one worldwide. So I mean I guess they kind of broke even right now the R rating right that's rated R. rated even shipping some money out of their pockets. Probably and I don't know why I mean it. The ours mostly for language like they're dropping F bombs like it's World War Two but I mean just I mean the the violence even that bad. They swear a long trumpet him from those fifty nine to saying the violence wasn't that bad that they couldn't have toned it down just a tiny bit and gotten that. Pg thirteen yeah. Most of it was for language. Do you think they'll once upon a dead pool at you? Think they'll do a half edited for language. I need to Redo a lot of stuff with this movie. It's like they. Have CASSANDRA CAIN. Who was back girl? One of the deadliest fighters in DC universe. The character bears no resemblance to her. I said it. I said it on our review. That just dropped today. I'm like. They're they're CASSANDRA. Cain reminded me of Russell from deadpool. Two OKAY INTERESTING SAKE. Check it out. Yeah I'M GONNA have to Check it out too. It just definitely and there's a few things in there unlike other tried so hard to make her dead poll but now I don't think she's in the fourth wall breaking enough so yeah. No one's going to happen there. What do you think I know the time this comes out? The Oscars will be in the rear view but Joker won for best score. Oh that's actor. Yeah at Kenya. I came with my joker. Well I have not seen it now. I just I. It's kind of Gotham either. I mean it's like okay. I WANNA watch. Batman does does Gotham Gotham only exist as backdrop and Universe for Batman? We'll we'll we'll we always joke Tori podcast at about it like a you know. They brought all the all his enemies like early. So it's like oh by the time he gets old enough to combat me all his are going to be like hard walkers using well. God I just feel like the joker in a lead role. That's that seems to be what the Oscars loves though. I mean he's ledger. Now Looking Phoenix I mean. Yeah Yeah I guess so and this was like and you know they don't like the awards the Superhero movies. This was like the least Super Comic Book Move In. Now come out recently because basically you could almost I mean a little tiny tweaks to this movie and it would. You could just been a movie about a crazy guy that could've been taxi driver When taxi isn't over instead in white makeup. Yeah Yeah. It's Kinda like I mean this was I didn't Gotham either but it's There's a patent will joke comedian in each fuck about the Star Wars. The first batch prequels came out and I. I'm going to butcher the bit. But he says something like trying to picture the pitch meeting for the movie executives. Yo You know Luke Skywalker you know the or You gotTa Love Him. But he's a little kid but just like there's a little kid a mess. So I thought Darth vader. Yeah I thought it was GONNA be like. Oh yeah you know what this what the prequels need trade talks of trade trade routes in government stuff town hall meetings? Yes Oh Allah not to toot our own horn. But matter you're GONNA be joining us for the monthly scarlet spider talk. Yeah I have avoided the exact planning thread commit to a date yet over there. You overwhelmed with the list of of all things I gotta get caught up on. I was Gonna say sorry I mean you know I mean if you can't make every episode. That's fine because I know the first episode me Tyler in. We're getting ray in on this because we do in like a Sunday morning at seven. Am just the work with you. Know because really okay because array. Yeah it is the twenty third. I think whatever that lasts on that that Sunday this month I think it's the twenty third yet seven. Am Okay what. I know. Say I was saying if wonder booth if you wanted to do this. You know if you can't make it since raise on their he should turn turn the tables on them and sending feed and that's high. Hey guys guys is matt from the Quantum's impala can't I you know what I I do. Kinda like the weird our stuff so I might. I might drop in Don. Style and chat with you guys jumped on tonight. I was expectancy donny from Denmark. Man. While I'll put it on my calendar just in case I am going to be moving soon. Movin like before the end of the month so I could be exhausted. Could still be awake but you might see a different backgrounds. Besides what just a different part. Yeah a different euro-disneyland behind me baby new apartment. Let me handsome comic art on the wall. That's all right. We'LL HAVE A. We'll have more room for my helmet books. Which is good. We're getting a Harry man cave. We'll we'll say like sh sh she mentioned it and As you know because you were moving to get more space like you'll you'll Laura your comic books and stuff and I was like you know you gotta be careful with what you're delvin out. I'll take a mile every brother foot. Scott to be longer full length. Want exactly. That's right near the full length. Posey any fortress of solitude need a quantum own if you yeah I I need a bookshelf with an inter dimensional portal. Oh my Lord. That's my thing. If I win the lottery a putting in like big home theater could be like all all back came style like a sliding bookcase or something. Did you ever think that you see on? Tv or something. Some guy did that and he had like the Shakespeare bus from Batman Sixty six. He turned the gun. Lock the door and the big screen. And I'M GONNA have like display cases. You know maybe like a Batman suit on one side like a spider man on the other something yes. Let's all can make quasars right. Alright so shall we hit up. Tonight's issue you got it man. Quasar number thirty six from Were moving right along to line nineteen ninety-two by course mark grunwald writer. Creek Kapoor Pennsylvania. Harry Kandel Areo inker genus Chang. Letter Paul Becton colors. Kelly corvus editor Tom. The BELCO editor in chief series. Because he didn't give himself a flashy nickname. That's right no. I didn't mean it. They're talking all right tightens up. Tonight's episodes cage sue -Kay yeah was trying to figure out if this was a play on words upon or something but I couldn't really I Dunno I guess it'd be the perfect title for Seventies Com ended. Yeah are quite sold Frayne. But now we'll learn space the SILOM. Oh there you go. Nineties appropriate ninety. Nice all right. Remember last issue or our heroes. Refloating rule tiny speck lake in front of this huge being To the first page says a look once upon a time in a galaxy far from the Milky Way there was a collective empire that spanned a thousand worlds contained hundreds of different alien races and boosted trillions of Citizens. This empire was forced by militaristic race known as decree last week or couple of weeks ago. an antimatter bomb exploded at the center of the Empire. Releasing deadly radiation at translates speed at present half of the Empire's population is dead by the time the radiation reaches the furthest Ram parts of the Empire. The death toll will be somewhere around. Eighty percent into this horrifying holocaust have come earth's most caused mckerrow Quasar and his companions the superfast macari and the stellar powered her hoping to aid the survivors. The earthly trio have instead been dispatched on a quest to aid the cree dead. Who Souls are said to have been stolen just reading that whole thing? I could just imagine like a star wars. Scroll dissolve like a super skirl now pay aunts rock on visible thoughts. All the camera fly down. I thought we'll out of his chair or something are you okay. Speak to me. Speak to me all right. So the cans down there you go. You got me man. I like that's like that's like the audio equivalent. Spit take but yeah. Earn your headphones. All right macari. I think you're up first. Yeah we because how thing all I knows what my goddaughter told me. It's one heck of an unidentified energy source. Oh my Lord look at that slash page page two. Oh yeah that's awesome Ca Pulo dishonest and it's one that would behoove us till avoid and then we see a empty treadmill Mac. He's not on the treadmill that the creature managed to snatch him. How could have moved so fast? Not that I don't dig a treadmill but my legs are able to do some real shaken. Guess what the space waste is massive enough to generate in appreciable gravity field. Oh you missed the part. We said Yo cuisine. Yeah oh I'm sorry. Oh man and here I am. Running up is the harm. Yes I sped read it. Be careful Mac. Let's assume this thing's hostile until proven otherwise all right. I'll meet you at a shoulder. All right so okay epoch. Epoch you there. What do you make of this thing? I'm in the process of scanning it for its derivation QUASAR. I'll let you know as soon as I can't do that little goddaughter I'm GonNa try to communicate with it. I guess they're on the shoulder. Looks like almost as if as if it's going to no English Oh I'm sorry. I skipped ahead of on the section page. Meanwhile Earth though no paid four oh sorry digital murder or a crazy Miranda. I saved as if it's going to English. Okay wait a minute page. Oh I think I am too. This is an outrage. Have godless pace. Yeah hang on my GonNa go get the fiscal one. One SEC You'll man's got out of his chair. Alright we can. We can always take a commercial break by one of the host of the upcoming scarlet spider tasks. This is one of the high price conscious right for into the night a night. Podcast way proud members of the collective. And you're listening to one of the collective members and lunatics sidekicks podcast APP. You enjoy speaking of Rafer. Midnight Moon podcast. Yeah it's going to be talking with us. Once a month about scarlet spider name saying he was doing something on somebody else's podcast. I'm like unlike as hard as the belief I think. Raise going to be doing more podcasting than I do. I swear I swear. Raise like trying to podcast on every continent for anybody like trying to start a podcast in in in in Arctic. I'm freaked probably get rigs. I think he's trying to con sixty five degrees the other day boy. Yeah all right sorry sorry going back I got it will design the page. I I now not yet okay. That's fine because most of its wondering. Yeah sometimes the digital ones will give you an upside down page or something but all right so squeezer. Her macari stand shoulder. Page four carries crouching. You said as if it's going to know English try French. I'm rusty then against this other things looking at him. My name is Quasar. I'm a being from another galaxy. Who Are you? That's what the suction. Oh He's sucking us in page six months Suction incredible what is it? There's no air and space. I can't be drawing in by inhaling wind. My quantum energy. Can't someone up enough to resist. This poll try something else and he like lassus one of its teeth anchor on its tooth now to nab the others and he tries to throw lines to both of them can't feel them. They're not grabbing on. They've gone down that creatures. Gullit Shelia when follow for will I be able to help them better from without without? I think so quantum trump's right out of its Mall Hope Mac inner. He broke the quantum floss. Do So yes American. Hediye says so. Yeah he quantum trump's a little way from hope Mac and hers. Quantum aura holds. Who knows what the creatures digestive fluids may be able to do? Better get them out fast. All right I think this is youtube. Meanwhile on earth quasars closes female acquaintances cruise the open. Hd In his close acquaintance. He's like what once his most recent higher I guess Oh ATF. Oh criminal I prefer you call me Holly Kayla. Since when is it criminal to take vacation leaving cannon? The Large Hill manage for a week. He been the last one to begrudge you a trip to Disneyworld after what you've hey check this out. Can you believe a guy that get up expecting us to pick him up yet? Lots of luck bud. Isn't there a door song about a hitch? The road ahead. There's something I can't the Kayla ladies need some Health Galaxy Quasar opened up on this thing okay body Sucker GonNa make you spew mix like a giant what hammer or sledgehammer tries a hidden in the gutter something. My area gut shot all man hit with a quantum sledgehammer the size of a skyscraper in and he didn't react in the slightest. All right get ready. Well go quite aspertain. The identity of the you have encountered already spilling we go down boy at least yes. On the other side of the galaxy there lived a sentient race called the day on us. Who had a symbiotic relationship with celestial being is being supplied today and it's with the energy necessary to sustain their worlds fragile biosphere in exchange for feeding off their sounding energy generating generated by the data's default worship then one day a space armada attacked and the object to the dentist day in his worship repulsed the invaders at the supreme cost of its own. Life mini died but the survivors built and Armata of their own and set forth in search of beings of power gods who they could harness to their life. Support Apparatus one. Such being they found was odin of Asgard wouldn't Thor came to rescue his father. One of the day Innis entered the spirit mold and animated a construct of Sonic Energy empowered by Odin immense lifeforce. The sole survivor clashed with that. With or and his as guardian companions an utterly vanquished by them with no godly lifeforce sustain it. The planet called Temple World became uninhabitable. And the Diet Were forced to evacuate. Epochs account can be cooperated way back in four to sixty one to sixty three awesome. Eventually the dentist named Krill entered the spirit mold and discovered he could recalibrated sciatic circuitry to tap the life force of his brethren doing so he slew them all since then. The soul eater has been traversing the cosmos looking for places of death so he might feed upon fresh souls empire at the time the Nega bomb nation last day. Ns absorbed untold billions of souls increasing in size and power exponentially. So that's the story than the mourners. Were right about the creek. Technically Not Being Dead Sea Laugh Issue. Him Step is the cosmic Cannibal. Eight their souls. Thanks he park now. I know what I'm up against these. He makes like a giant quantum odd razor blade Something big powerful unlike anything face before will. Maybe I've got something that can cut him down the size. Epi said the soul eaters body to some kind of Sonic Energy Construct. And let's see how it takes. Some quantum slicing is he like tries to cut. Its arm off trying to try it on. Its own I if that works then open up its stomach and going after Mac and her. Whoa soon as the blade path through with the slice seal back. Shut the my quantum energies useless. Hey turning away from me that actually hurt it or is it just bored with me? It's picking up speed. No it's warping away said make itself and engage cards. This this podcast brought to you by. Cbs or Picard. But if you'd like to and it's gone and it my friends epoch the sweeter Spanish can you get a fix on its new location as soon as it reenters real space I believe so and Seem Corp from back in going up? I'm right behind it. What's it doing? I think I see some kind of astronomical phenomenon and I can make it out with. Its but I can't make it out with its big fat body in the way off fat shaming on when the Louis what am I looking at some kind of organism and a big embryonic sac APP Epi I hate to be a pain but I will see if I can identify Quasar. Oh man it's opening up on the embryo who will discover? Its or we discover its origin. L- episode Yes Though clues seventeenth eighteenth. Yes anything that's obscene. It's sucking the life energy from that unborn. Creature weren't the billions of crystals enough. You gluttonous gotTa do something that embryos dead what think man think? I know I'll jump inside it. See if I can do more harm from within than it did from without so trump's side but back on earth at the car quagmire. The hitchhiker who they were just scoffing at dickey's help helping them help out of there are of the wreck that suddenly happen easy now. They'll lady WANNA bruise tomatoes. Odd a tomatoes would say. I'm usually such a good driver. That are went out of control. When we hit some SORTA oil slick humaneness new stepping on the car with his thumb. Kind of looks like the genie from Aladdin. This is from ninety two the oil in the air kind of looking like A. It's going to hand like quality to it starts approaching them. Who Are you? What do you want names quagmire? And what I want is blondie here. No our we're little man from because right for quick Myers good. I on Harry Potter. Lightning both lasted tinker bell. Got A muck you up. Good is he would protected me from the Angler in the shower issue thirty. That's right issue. Number thirty four Gacha Anki dink going down so wish inc. Well ladies get any more tricks up your sleeve second stop on no than let me show you what a mine. In summons a black portal door behind him which is see behind me as a dough away behind it as mystery date laundy. Why us are doing this to us while Blonde. You got something my boss wants. Don't ask me what s Spec sorry doll my boss and interested might be. I might be if you play your kids right now. Help me pulled into the door. Hd Front of Colorado Kit. What we'll let you face it alone care of coming with. And then she starts going in a weight. You dumb So what the Buskila Bonus Bimbo and I paid off my debt. Apparently yeah they they just get Fernan. Any stays outside of the Norway police last week by quagmire until what forty four remember? What gruff voice. I did math infinity war and marvel boy between here there south. Yeah sure yeah through some interruptions so mcgruff Gruff New Yorker is that we it's all that gruff New Yorker all right. Meanwhile in another galaxy not so far far away square root materializing creature. Whoa I'm inside the thing thing propelled through it like I was midst. Bloodstream or something. But this but this is no creature flesh-and-blood now what better stop this Bobsled ride 'cause he's GONNA bubble they're anchored myself within this artery or tunnel or whatever as it grows spikes on blockage. Yeah now let me send the pulse of energy through this loiters nervous system or whatever or wherever see if I can locate mackin? Her a Macintosh MAC in her her. The prequel Oh nice. Not sure how to stop this creature before killed the cosmic fetus. Sort of trying to kill it Boy here we as protector of the universe to have the right to kill such a unique lay form is the sole leader. How is that any different than a group of avengers decided to kill the supreme intelligence to achieve to to avenge the all? The cree killed had killed decision. I opposed which is In the recent vendors number three forty six which was wrong it was three forty seven. Belco soon to Falco or episode Mugniyah. The quantum said that works to Wait I know how it's different killing the SL was punitive. This is preventative. If I don't find some way to stop the sweeter. The cosmic fetus will be slain in. Utero who knows where the soldier will turn. Its voracious appetite next sorry sole e enough to terminate you. Okay then turn up the power to all turn up the power to all I can muster with any luck. It affect him just like a strong. Electrical current affects the human body. I pulse I sent out. Should be back any moment now. Soon as it completes the circuit through its body. Where is it? The soul eaters nurses the more extensive than I have imagined or maybe this is even equivalent to its weight as he liked down the tunnel. Here comes so what effect is my energy disruption having epoch. What's the picture outside and my having any visible on the monster in a word? No Cell leader is still tearing at the life essence of the embryonic entity all my power. And it doesn't mean squat creature say Epi I just tried freeing the soldiers innards and it didn't work any suggestions. No not at present great. Hey I just noticed all these glowing spheres buzzing around outside like bugs around the porch light. Am I seeing things or they penetrating quantum bubble? Could they be the Sawyers Protective? Antibodies show swarming all about me passing through my CO QUANTUM AURA. Entering me okay. Matt you want this one voice. Yeah that one taller you quoting phantasm? 's could these be the souls of the dead cre-. You're cre- law. Yes Ya yes. Who Are you? I'm Quasar of Earth. This world of yours is a creature who apparently implored the life forces of all the dead create the incident of radiation death. Not only that. The creature appears to be in the process of killing more things just to take their life forces away. I was trying to stop. It failed so far. My energy doesn't seem to affect it then. This isn't Hunedoara. If you mean some sort of afterlife no I SRI it isn't. It's more limbo if you know what that is so I have surmised in have been trying to tell them. I mean you guys. I mean you guys no harm but the entity that's haunting you does. He's using you all somehow. This sale also suspected the entity has immense power and strength and stature all derived from having eaten and digested your spiritual essences. What difference does it make where dead nothing will bring us back to life? Perhaps once we're used up we will then pass on to our alternate destination. But it does matter. Do you really want your lives to be used to kill other living things. I do not. I do not care while you guys are going to have to decide for yourself if you want to be used for food by an opportunistic creature profiting from the horrendous tragedy that has befallen the peoples of the illustrious cre- empire you your friends and families or if you want to embrace death with dignity you've earned. I can't really tell you any more than that They stick in their fading. Thank you for telling us the nature of our circumstances I will see to it that my billions of brethren are enlightened at the speed of thoughts. Not Take Long. Perhaps I could persuade them to resist being used in this obscene manner. Thanks good luck in. Oh Oh I still gotta find her Mac. If that plank can convince the creosote to revolt against their cannibalistic jail keeper and they begin the bust out things inside the seniors body could get very messy. Maybe even lethal. I think I've pinpointed the signal from the quantum or I put around her and Mac doesn't appear to be too far from here but there's no telling if I'll ever reach it letting the current of Soll Es Bloodstream. Carry me going to have to take the shortest route possible and that means ripping through the soul eaters. Insides like a micro scalpels but moments later. I don't know not already Mac. Her whole thing blows up the Swedes body blasted in the shards of quantum. Or not the shield Mac and her lock on satellite line in soon ways. Man You came through buddy you are. We weren't working for Mitt. Should've been what did you do? Quasar nothing really. I just talked to a couple hundred billion souls in the making a break for freedom. They did the rest Health Space Pizza. Yeah it's hard to tell Hussein It's probably Max. Space via seems like a wise okay. A wide remark as a space is doing. I wonder if the wicked look at this side of its embryonic sac though sorry area but I bet it's still at least a quays. What's a matter for guy you've saved the day? You sure? Look down in the mouth. I think we ought to observe a moment of silence for the cre- As a minute ago there truly dead and ironically they have the protector of the universe. To thank. This is a good bill. Two-parter oh yeah. I mean much much smaller scale than Galactic Storm. But Yeah Story. I thought interesting and it does a little direct APP. Go ahead man does give. I mean it's not it doesn't say after the after the storm at the top of the cover but you know it gives a little bit of At the end you get a little bit of closure little wrap up but it's a whole separate quasar adventure to school. I like the hero. Shot there at the end. Her is the is the tallest macari sovereign quasars the shortest of. L. That's okay. I've ever get this. Get this to open. We can. Yeah we feedback from ray or does the believe. You're squeezing thirty six all right everyone. Here's some feedback from ray from a into the night mnay. Podcast last son's crypt on The upcoming episodes of spider casserole we talking scarlet spider and basically as. I said pretty much half the podcast on earth. So did you did you see that. Meanwhile mine I saw a couple of times already said it's it's it's captain America from a winter. Soldiery a well. They did a couple in different ponds. The one he he goes. Hey did you hear your bladder? Thought Documentary won an award which won the Golden Globes. Sorry so again. Our international friend Ray. From a half the podcast the known universe Takeaway Aloe Phil will and Matt. He's right just giving some thoughts on quite Issue Thirty six a very another very cool issue attack of the soul tactical restricted. Three free. Mind points I think And overall found the issue quad enjoyable There was a lot of a look ethic questions which I found really interesting again. Greenville's rotting I'm such a fan of everything. Just hang on every word but Yes I number one. I liked the the discussion. All thought process Ahead with himself in comparing What the vengeance did to the supreme intelligence in Operation Galactic Storm to what he's contemplating to do to To the soul eater and I don't know your thoughts on. Its way the he justified it or not About why that Grin will Played it out. Was I guess that now? The Supreme Intelligence. He's death penalty was punitive as opposed to Killing the SOLWAY TA in order to save lives You know it. It seems it seems towns. That kind of logic is groping This little bit of making will. He's kind of justifying these things slightly hypocritical sale What you saw with that. But I found that quite interesting. The second point was another quandary with with ethics authority. Was those really cool Drove actually the end of it into the story. And that was quite talking to those salsa did crease souls within the soul eater and And we made a couple of them. One of the souls. Happy to Bain Eighty K. You know what was happening but quiz points points out that you know. Would you rather have a real kind of death with owner or do you wanna be doing potty to more destruction and certainly destroying a lot? so again the Something to think about and again this is the point of difference from quite comics with others. Just a little sort and a lot of these little things that groenewold had placed in storytelling at fondly number. Three I just thought throw it out there. That embryo and the embryonic sac. I just thought that was brilliant. Touches quite grotesque get at an Kapila does a really good job of depicting it? 'cause you Konaga sense of a heist in one of the panels. But it's not. It's still obviously an embryo Quite disgusting but it was What compelling as well look away. It'll be back home. The embryonic sac and never thought excitement anyway. Again as always the he'll thoughts on it What do you think of actually that? Saad story with Kyla and a what is she called. H? Say I day Like the TV Moon. Dryden Machines Other did you find that interesting. I'm quite interested as well. That little man did he come from the other universe And was he responsible for? That's kind of incapacitation of the Anglo. I guess we can think now it is a non story but Yeh Electric Power as well. It's anyway yeah. Just what did you think of that? Secondary Plot Anyway I'll give this I'll give this issue with seven embryonic sex out of ten squatting and wrapped up nicely. Catch US oh. Yeah that whole portal thing. We'll get into that Eventually I think they get to their destination by the next issue. I believe right I think so. Yeah I I'll be honest that the whole subplot with Kayla. It never really kind of wowed me I was. I felt like it fell into that trap. Of If you hang around a superhero. You're GONNA get superpowers. You know that seems to have been in every book and I'M NOT GONNA. I'm not GonNa ruin it for Ray or anybody else's listening but you know it directly leads into of course the giant issue fifty of quite right. You know I I it never really really worked for me. I mean it should because grunwald bring all these errors. Noggin essay. Who Chrome is which is what are called. It's Never really came together for me. I don't know why but after the others have other opinions. I mean except for. Yeah issue fifty. I mean that's some plot. It's like they're going somewhere and it's just like okay well and I guess I'd probably hold it against it too because because of that subplot I mean. That's that's kind of note that the book went out on right That last big giant crossover which was not edited very well because they got the numbers wrong on a lot of things talk. That just left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't know but it's I mean it's still grunwald. And he's still he's doing some really long-form plotting here. I mean this is a thirty. What thirty one was when he went to the universe right? And you know we're still there's a subplot that comes out of that that you know blows up in fifty and then in sixty you know so thirty three years later still dealing with the ramifications of all that yeah but he also heading deal with Operation Galactic Storm Infinity or yeah exactly and starve blast the now but I just need before issue fifty. He had to get through in those events which speaking of which next episode will be Infinity. Wore number two. And there we go we can do a quick recap of issue one so starting next episode alternate between Infinity War on finished anywhere quiz on. And there's a great scene coming up that I just love it's Quasar thirty eight I think where warlock Infinity Watson doubts pop in and caps. Nobody duty thing everybody does. Everything but QUASAR Bubbled UP IN. And it's just everything's fine. Oh Yeah Oh yeah. We'll get there. I mean there's like guys like the whole thing like trying to break through that bubble and it was like. Yeah I just got on the job. Let me give you a bullhorn but yeah it's your raise right. Grunwald ruin was an intelligent writer. He really was just injecting having having the main character thing about well. Okay I I really don't WanNa kill this thing but it's killing something else in my friends are here in. Baba you know thinking about the ethical considerations of your actions. I mean it's kind of an interesting take. Yeah I loved his writing on this and Captain America. I think I've said many times but it's like you know the whole thing. If you can have dinner with anyone alive or dead it'd be GRUNWALD. Oh yeah that'd be awesome thoughts. Mr Kona I I can't follow the the mess for the quantum zone and I. I sort of had the same issues with the Kayla stuff. I love the character when she first comes out and it is a bit of A. It's sort of like a strange trends. That transition almost like if you're a is is happened in So this TV show called twin peaks. I think you guys have seen as decided the nineties Rebooted but Laura Centers around the death the murder of reformer in originally the actress who is only supposed to play a dead body but there was like a flashback clip received video home video her it became very popular so they wrote her into the show as her cousin. Like so you know. It's almost like does she have a Patty Duke. Dental cousin different hair a still along for the ride. But but but it now it Kinda takes you automate but but yeah Green Room. World is is is a good everything that he's built in he he is he takes on a lot a lot of different universes a new universe. The Marvel Universe is just killing off this big crossover. So he's got a lot going on so I'm willing to Let some issues that I might have with some stuff. Go by the wayside but since you brought it up chime in it too all right. I I don't know like I wish we'd saw a little bit more of the soul eater or knew a little bit more about it other than just stopping the the creed from completely passing on because it's a cool. You know the artwork to is really cool and the power to just suck these three cosmic beans in like that is. It's a it's intriguing. And and that's all really got to know about him and then he blew up. Hey take one off character you know. I mean he needed to help lead cre- but think about this quasar just defeated giant villain. Who went toe to toe with like four node and yeah and he said authorities companions. I'm assuming warriors three or other people. Yeah so he's played Nasr guarding level enemies. Yeah Yeah but yeah next next up. It'll be infinity war too and then following the episode after that will be Quasar thirty-seven defense. The mentioned a manifestations very cool aren't adequate. Our guys reminded me. I had a question. I'll ask you guys. We can't even throw out to the listeners. Once we get past issue sixty. Should we keep going? Chronologically will go back and try to hit some of those early appearances like an amount was talking about those some of those dazzling issues. I think there's another moral two and one. We did that. Quasars in we have time everyone can think about our after sixty I Dunno Party kinda wants to go back and do you appearances that we missed his arm. Shows up in fantastic four. Yes yeah done okay. We wanted that one. I was GONNA say I. We'll do what we can do. One issue we could do one issue or one episode. Were just we just cover the issues? Where healing shows like one panel or something but no i. I know there's at least one marvel to in one issue where he teams up with the thing which we didn't cover so I think that would be a cool. You know we just ended jump back. Catch the things that we may miss. And then once we got those we could start because after sixty it's cosmic powers unlimited are mass in Seattle are masters in four by wading Mongo. Yeah and then nothing until Earth Guard until elation nylon. Yeah well there's that guardians of the Galaxy. Which is an alternate version of hand? Actually did you have that on the schedule? Why a later Gardner Galaxy One? You have a fifty fifty fifty eight fifty nine sixty. I think because Oh that's the other thing that's GonNa stop that with the other one mistake. Do we want to do that after sixty also? I think we should do that around the same time we do. The White Room Issues L. Quasar with marvel boy because he has to go to the white. Right okay yeah yeah. Yeah that sounds like a good idea maybe do you forty three and then the Guardian's one in between these between forty three and forty four. Maybe do that guardians and it's actually it's with his son true version of his son wearing the quantum bands. Screw and it does have her in it her. Yes that's definitely a plane okay. We'll do those guardians issues between forty three and forty four out. I'll redo the schedule and then I'll up some of his earlier appearances. We decide what we want to do after sixty okay. Maybe I'll say maybe we'll I'll look it up online. See check the list of stuff we haven't done like what are we gonNa do this? I know MAC ONA's back chomping at the bit do Dassler. You mentioned it before I got him. Yeah I've got a few of them some of the raise schedule. He's like what this girl's Dad. Just just go. Just got the Australia John Travolta John Travolta chaps isn't Livia Newton. John Australian of making that up. I don't know I think's out now Lord I remember that just like in high school and everything everyone's like Oh Newton's in the John the bathroom the joints. It's not is it. Maybe it's the Lou in Australia. I don't know I gotTa do some research before I make any feedback phone call. All I know is the water goes backwards. So Turner counterclockwise The coriolis effect. That's all he does show up in avengers forever. Just a few issues. Going through the checklist here hence looking over that'll be. I mean that'll be after we're going to do that here. Is You? Know the first hour when will be the fourth series that he was in with Captain Marvel and Moon Dragon and Jack of heart? Oh yea or and then there's like Was that maximum. Is that maximum security where he whole ego thing of injures Reborn or not really yet. We'll get there. We'll get returned now. I guess we'll hit me with some of those early appearances before. That are so anything else. So I got all right Oak Assault Civil Fo the word out. Hey everybody any early appearances. We did not hit that you want us to hit know. Send your thoughts. Were EATING ANYTHING AFTER. Sixty seven thoughts. Send your send your mail like you must hit this issue. Or this ark email us capes in lunatics at G. L. DOT COM. Call A voicemail. Six one four three eight two two seven three seven at six one four thirty eight. Let the world here in Djelic. Tones like the mighty ray every episode and follow us on facebook twitter Find All our social media all in one convenient place that's linked Trie Elian. Ktar DOT ee slash keeps in lunatics and support sponsors tweaked audio hunter. Killer pod life. The bulk now digital and audio an check the show notes with the Amazon dot com link for Southgate Media Group. Send US some Funds the keeping us such fine fine programming as the quantum zone. Podcast ALL RIGHT. Master of quantum zone will allred. Where can people find? You can find me at wall red. That's at W. A. L. L. R. E. D. at the g mail and twitter facebook. And all those places also find me at diary of night dot com which is the home of myself published book. Barry if night which actually has a kickstarter running right. Now that's going to end in forty eight hours two days from now I was Gonna say but if you're listening to the podcast it's too late but if you're wanting young yeah so yeah. If you're watching this on youtube than it's probably still running so just go to diary dot com and Click on the kickstarter Lincoln. They'll take you there and then of course all kinds of cool stuff at the quantum zone quantum zone dot org rates soulful man Mukunda. Where can people find you online? You can find me all around. Social Media at Kona Am A. T. T. K. O. N. A. Instagram is probably what I used the most to stand up comedy occasionally sometimes so he can find me around the New England area. That's where you live or visit but around make the quantum jump up the Boston people can get find me on the shoulders of soul eaters. Surprisingly hard to say they might be giants and I mean I think it came out later in the nineties but there is a always album called standing on the shoulders of giants which I thought about what we read this but it wasn't worth interrupting about Deleted scenes at the end finally. Pd's at music man we. We could've played so much nineties music right. Everyone plans next time. Maybe wore number two. Everyone's going to be either literally everyone. Everyone basic everyone in the nineteen to show that way in finnity gauntlet ever appear in some of the big favor spiderman double o extra arteries everyone again join us next time. Staying alive. Remember Quantum's owners on them in the belly of the beast.

Quantum Quasar Mac Oscars Holly Kayla Matt mark grunwald ray Luke Skywalker youtube Harley Quinn Cbs Southgate Media Group Supreme Intelligence murder Gotham CASSANDRA CAIN captain America Mac writer
Is It Time for Your Encore Career?  Ruth Wooden

The Retirement Wisdom Podcast

46:58 min | 5 months ago

Is It Time for Your Encore Career? Ruth Wooden

"You're listening to the retirement. Wisdom podcast focusing on the changing nature of retirement today and the non financial aspects of a successful retirement transition. Join host joe. Casey and learn from leading experts in the field and the stories of people who created interesting second acts as they share practical ideas and tips to create your own check out our website at retirement wisdom dot com where you can download our newsletter and other resources to learn more about how coaching can help you. The best way to support this podcast as the head over to apple podcasts and post a rating comment. It's easy and it's free. Join our conversation. Get wiser about your retirement. Welcome to retirement with tom. Podcast becoming increasingly clear. The traditional approach retirement simply doesn't work for many people any longer many people retiring but they're not dunya in wondering about how they can create an encore career. A second hacked if you will today we have a special guest who not only has created her own encore career. She's been involved in the encore movement for quite some time and she is designed and launched a program that helps people create their own encore career. I'm thrilled to the opportunity to talk with our guest. Ruth wooden today. Ruth wooden retired twenty eleven from her career in communications in both the commercial and nonprofit sectors in retirement went back to grad school received a master's in religious studies from union the illogical seminary new york city that experience letter design a non degree class for adults fifty five plus the encore transition program which combines discernment about aging spirituality and experiential social justice opportunities than nonprofit religious public sectors. Ruth wins career encompassed thirty years of experience in marketing and advertising including serving for twelve years as the president. Ceo of the advertising council the leading producer of public service communication programs in the united states also served as president of public agenda which was founded in nineteen seventy five by former secretary of state cyrus vance and social scientists. Daniel yankelovich helps citizens better understand critical policy. Issues and help. The nation's leaders better understand the public's point of view before serving as public agendas president. She was senior counselor at the international communications firm porter novelli and she also served as the volunteer coordinator of the madison avenue advertising team for the presidential campaign of senator bill bradley ruth also served as the board chair of on corridor the leading voice in research and advocacy for building a movement to tap the skills and experiences of those embiid life beyond route. Thanks for joining us today. My pleasure so how would you describe your career in your encore. So far. I think my career was one stage when i became skilled by practice and experience in marketing and communications. And that's how. I got known for but my encore has been much more of a individual journey of learning. I feel like i'm a student. Somebody asked me the other day. What do i do. And now that i'm in retirement. I said i read. I read all the time. I'm hungry to read and so i don't mind being alone. I sometimes think the pandemic was made for me now after a very public kind of extroverted career. I'm really reveling in being a students. I liked school. So when i thought about going back to school after i retired it really appealed to me. I do know that. When i planned on retiring i did not want to stay in communications. I actually do have one client a consulting client that i've had for ten years on communications but there are a nonprofit foundation doing work around poverty issues so i'm able to learn as well as applied my communication skills. But that's i'm doing it. Because i'm learning about poverty issues and policy issues that i wouldn't have done otherwise. But they're very two phases are quite different rethink of those spaces. What's brought you to this point now. Personally and professionally. I feel i've lived a very blessed life. I am writing a memoir now. Which i had never planned to do so. That's a new experience. It's kind of my encore project. Probably for the next couple of years. And so i have been reflecting and i realized looking back at seventy five years. I have been blessed. Like the best luckiest person in the world. I think i'm a canary in the mine. I was born in nineteen forty six. So i'm the very front of the baby girl. I grew up in the midwest. The granddaughter of norwegian immigrants i went to public schools. I was the oldest of four children. My mother and father were both college graduates and professionals. We were middle-class maybe upper middle class in a nice suburb of minneapolis and my parents loved each other as well as loving the four of us. So i was blessed. I went to the university of minnesota. I was a really good student. I had one of those high school careers. That other girls are jealous of you know they hated me because i was captured the cheerleaders and homecoming prince in. But i was also the salutatorian. Mike class in nineteen sixty four. Three hundred fifty kids so i was a smart girl but i was still told i had to take typing and i was still told. Jobs were listed employment female and employment male. I had expectations of a rich life. I knew i wanted to work. My mother had gone back to work and she was an administrator in an art museum at the minneapolis institute of art. She was the number two person she had very good job so i had this role model but i honestly never expected to have had the career. I did my expectations. Were you not be you know well. Employed my goal at the beginning was to get a job. He didn't have to type. I thought that would signify something. But you know i went to my fiftieth high school reunion and i realized that when all of us girls were there and sixty four graduating none of us expected the rich lives most of us ended up with and i looked at the man and i have a feeling that a lot of them ended up with less and what they had expected they. Many of them seemed kind of laconic. They were retired. And i say loss. I don't mean lost but they. They didn't have the energy that the women did that that that night and the woman had many things to talk about. The men were talking about golf and occasionally their grandchildren. But i didn't find them as interesting as the women that year but it was just a really reflected the gap between our expectations in sixty four and our reality fifty years later. What are your thoughts on the encore. And i know that you've been involved or movement really since it's really this. Could you share the story of hire became involved with it. Sure well. I was fortunate during my professional life to become bowker. The number of nonprofits. And i was actually on the board of the end the mcconnell clark foundation and the president of that foundation mike belan had mentored a young man earlier in his life by the name of mark friedman. And as you know mark. Friedman became the entrepreneur social entrepreneur who created the encore movement. If you will in the early days he called the organization that was a think tank civic ventures trying to understand how to take this longevity benefit to benefit society and it was always about how to solve social problems. He came to the idea of encore movement. Meaning the the benefit of the longevity experience that was giving us a huge generation of people with very energetic time on their hands say in their sixties and seventies that was new in america and so he started this think-tank to think about these issues and he had a wonderful sociologist on the board. The man who helped run elder hostel etcetera etcetera. And he came to me through this connection with mike belan at the foundation and asked me if i would join his board and this was the startup. It was fun the group that he put together included. John gardner one of the great public intellectuals of the last century so it was a very exciting group and in the early days we did a lot of research about this stage of life. And i can still remember doing this. Research with a dear friend of mine margaret mark. Who's one of the most talented researchers i've ever worked with. I worked with her in advertising. So i brought her to the table and she did these groups where she asked people in the group to create a collage of images and she. Everybody had the same images from ads and books. Cetera create an image of the perfect retirement in every group created their own collage together. And then we looked at like ten collages and every one of them had the same one photo but it was the only photo that was true in everybody's picture and it was always in the center which according to margaret hardly ever happens but it was a photo it happened to be from a an ad for maxwell house coffee table things and it showed a couple older couple in their sixties. You couldn't tell whether they were a married couple but they were woman in a man and they were having a cup of coffee. They were relaxing but they were darkening close in the background. You could see a banner saying community guard day and you can see people with wheelchairs. A lot of them were young people. And this was this kind of intergenerational community day and it showed up every single collage golf so did sailing thought it all kinds of other things. This was the one and that really clueless into service or community activism as a core definer of the encore stage. The encore ethic. Encore isn't just about what you do in your encore stage. Say at sixty or after retirement. It's about purpose that endemic to the definition in our view. There's lots of things we all do. I like to read and walk on the beach and play with my nieces and nephews and whatever but purpose is inextricably linked to the idea of the encore movement. It's clear bachelor up in the centre consistently everyone script caution volumes wondering what do you think is different about people as they enter the encore stage of life. It's a good question because it certainly berries in large part dependent what preceded and whether their health is in good shape so is variable that can change things and if they worked in a way that felt satisfied to some degree that affects things but if they've labored in just really physically exhausted. That's something else. So it does vary by what preceded the time if you arrived at sixty five. Let's just us sixty five and you're in reasonably good health and you feel reconciled to having a good ending to your work life then. I think people do turn to what now it. It's right in line with eric erikson's developmental stage model. It's what he calls the longevity stage but that he talks about the the generative stage. What do you generate at this time. And in history. Most of that generative work has been a legacy with your family whether it's a financial legacy or storytelling or whatever but now there's just a few more years of that legacy moment and so people do turn to thinking about what's next for a lot of people it's a continuation of what they were doing but they go deeper. They my sense. Because i teach this class at union called the court retirement. We can talk about her. Encore transition face because it is a seminal transition moment. It's not getting married or big moments you know becoming an empty nester. These are seminole life moments where things change. So what i've noticed is for a lot of people. The world in some ways kind of gets narrower but deeper so a number of people find themselves deeply engaged with their families or deeply engaged with a small group of friends. They don't have as many acquaintances anymore and they also get more engaged in their community in more one on one kinds of things. They're not so likely to be writing the operational plan for a protest. They might join it. But it's it tends to be a little bit more individual so i like to think of it as for a lot of people it's a conscious choice to be somewhat narrower but deeper eventually union point where you back for masters to her. It's also story of with that. But this is one of those serendipity stories that you only know about its impact until you look back at it later. So i was retiring and because i was running a nonprofit i gave billboard six months notice so word got out that i was going to retire. One funny story was. I would hear from friends who heard the news. The women all wrote and said congratulations. That's great and most of the men wrote and said we'll what are you gonna do now. And i finally at so intrigued by the difference. I wrote an article for one of the women's magazines about the different reaction. You know leave it to women to say congratulations now. You only have five jobs a day instead of six but one man kept asking me so often what i was going to do next. I finally said you know what. I'm going to buy a new bathing suit. That's what i'm gonna do next. And he stopped asking but anyway. I was just enjoying talking to people and connecting with. He wanted to have lunch and talk to me about what to do. Etcetera was those funds. And i got a phone call from bill. Moyers who i knew to his wife. Actually his wife judith was on the board of the organization. I was running public agenda and i got to know them and they had invited me on. Several occasions to events at union was on the board there as well and bill had endowed lecture. Series in judith. Name for her seventy fifth birthday present and it was a lecture series called women of spirit and once a year. They have a very big time speaker who speaks to the union world. The latest one and the last one was last february and it was ruth bader ginsburg and it was her last public event. So that's the kind of thing. Bill does for union. By the way i don't know if this he's a baptist minister he was trained just want baptist seminary so you could tell in his cadence anyway. He had suggested that. I'm meet one on one with three jones. Who is the president. And now she's been there ten years of union theological haven't come from yale. She's the first woman little bit younger than me. So i didn't know why he wanted me to meet her but we met for lunch and she asked me if i would be interested in teaching there and teaching conflict resolution which is something. We did a lot of public agenda and it was doing what i did before and i wasn't the least bit interested. I told her first of all. It's not a class. it's a workshop. I can do a workshop. did you want. But i'm really not that interested. And she said. I said i'll do the workshop and then she said an accidental line. She said okay. I'm just gonna make sure that we only make it available to the students at union on the ordination track and i looked at her puzzled. And said isn't that everybody and she said oh no. It's only about half our students. And i said well what are the other half do. She's in hell. They go into teaching. They go into counseling. And i'm thinking you know. I've been having these weird dreams of being in a classroom. I didn't tell her this. But i'm thinking of at the time thinking and she said you know we have this wonderful track called psychology and religion and we look at the field from the standpoint of spirituality and thinking room so i go home. I look up the course catalog. and there's at least five classes. I wish i could take so without telling serene. I applied as a non degree student. They had this non degree track. And it meant that. I would get credit for the class. But i wasn't working. Toward a degree. I could reapply for a degree status. If i wanted to in credit count it wasn't like an audit. I was really taking the class. I was going to get a great okay. I took a class on nineteenth century. American theological liberalism. It was a history class and history is my love. Well i was just knocked out. So i am by the way i called serene i said okay. I'll teach this thing. But i'm going to class. She said holy crap anyway so. I took the one class the next semester. I took the twentieth century. Theological liberalism and i took a course on psych and religion kind of early stages of understanding with basically throwing droid young. In the what's her name doesn't matter to me. And i'm thinking oh my god and then there are all these classes on social ethics. The black social gospel. I took bible. Because i had to take bible and i had to take systematic theology so i learned all the theologians many of whom had taught at union like neighbor until these are things i never did. I never studied philosophy. I'm elapsed episcopalian. I stopped going to church when i was sixteen. And i just fell in love with my coursework half time for four and a half years in order to get the degree and i finished in may of sixteen but right from the beginning i had this idea of a class that i wish i could have taken. I'm feeling that i haven't finished my spiritual journey. I don't want to work the way i worked before. But i'm feeling this inchoate interest in justice. So i kept telling me i. I had this idea for a class. I think we could make it work. I wrote the marketing story. If you will and she said give it a try. And i started in the fall of seventeen the spring of seventeen right after i graduated. Sixteen took six months. Did not do anything plan the class that i opened it up in january seventeen. And i've been doing it every semester. Since it's a semester course innocent. I have a lottery. Nobody has to write a paper but we have a lot of a lot of discernment dialogue and then it gets quite practical about how you do. Encore work at that point. Where reading the encore career handbook written by my colleague from encore dot or marciel her. But we read a lot of spiritual work. Before that we re thomas merton and richard roth was a franciscan priests we read a non joan chichester and we re secular books. William bridges transitions is the classic. We start there if you've by sister. Jonah's really profound. That's everybody's favorite book. And then i've also got to that. When written in grad school as well was offered by richer foiling upward is the other classic transitions falling upward gift. Years and parker palmer. Let your life spink. Most of the classics in my course and the gift of years is a wonderful structure because it forces you to look at the blessings of aging and the burdens and any topic has a blessing a burden. Apparently sister joan is still alive. And so were but william bridges has passed away. Harker palmer is still alive. He writes for a blog on being. So you can see him too so a lot of writers now who are living writing about this stage of life now. She certainly doesn't need me plugging her show. But for sister. John bennett oprah super bowl sunday number. And they're they're both catholics. And i'm not catholic. So i'm always have to apologize class but i find the catholics are the brightest writers. I mean thomas. Merton is my god. So i have a kind of having kind of a catholic tipton. I'm not catholic. But i will tell you one of my students in my very first class. Read the richard roth book. And he's fransciscan. Who gets as close to a heretic as you can get and still not get kicked out of the church and this woman read this book and she had was a a very dismayed catholic about the because of the sexual hase's and she said if i'd had this book twenty years ago i would still be a catholic. I wrote him to tell him that. I it was so encouraging to people who have problems with the church as he does but who believe and have faith because in the end it's about faith and i found my fate by doing all this work between that and being a member of alanon. I have all the spiritual help i need. I actually don't belong to a church. I go to a church where i live now in hard time in hawaii because i found a church i like but it's not church as much as faith and the hope for grace that keeps me kind of in the fold if you will spiritual as such as important moments in the transition on later life i think so clearly in i find that every semester. I get more applications than i know what to do. I can cure rate at class. Now i'm on zoom and people from all over the country. It's just it's been wonderful. It's terrifying because i don't think i'm a teacher. I think i'm a good facilitator. I'm just glad. I don't have to write a lecture every week but i have to be responsive on fly which is a little nerve racking. I can't prepare ahead of time for what people are going to say me. Last night we had a conversation. What came up was obviously what had happened this week with the trial of derek chauvin and my hometown of minneapolis. People were sharing about that and we have a woman who is african american in the program who was talking about the impact on her and then she said when i was almost nine my father who was a cop was shot and killed in the line of duty while the whole room just stopped knowing that that was her life and here she is celebrating a different moment of racial justice the fact that her father had been a cop with a big deal which he was nine years old in boston molested by my hometown issues in the seminar in the workshop in the program what are the big challenges you see people working through the course of the semester. Yeah well i mean. I have to say that ageism as our brand ashton applewhite says is laughs indignity that we put on the people. It's not the only one but we culturally still are a long way from treating it fairly much less celebrating it. I give a big shout out to jane fonda. I just think she's the hottest thing going and when she walks out with their gray hair now. She's inspired me to go all gray during the pandemic my blonde dyed hair. Go and now. I'm going to be silver for the rest of my life. So people encounter that and so it stymies them. Minute discourages them. So that's one big thing. We run up against how to navigate new networks. New pathways is a big one because people generally come out of one set of networks and they want to get into another. So how do you do that. That's where we use marci's book Encore career handbook to talk about how to present yourself into new networks and don't be afraid to network the other thing is people are a little timid about trying things and i tell them that one of the things we're doing in this class is to find the clues for our own personal space as a on carista as we call it and one way we do that is to find out what doesn't work so we really want to encourage people to take little steps. Make some choices. Try something if you think you've always wanted to volunteer with kids. Give it a try. You may hate it but you'll know don't be afraid to try something and kind of expect it not to be perfect. You know manage your expectations. And then i find that. A lot of people have to navigate relationship issues marriages deaths and caregiving. It comes in an interrupt. As marcy puts life gets in the way and we have not solved caregiving in this country. At all we had to monetize the medical costs of caregiving. It would break the bank in this country. We have an awful lot of women mostly spending productive hours in caregiving that are sapping them dearly. That is a version of what young mothers go through raising kids while they're working somewhere. There's an opportunity in those shared caregiving issues. I don't know what it is. But those are the most of the challenges that i see the intergenerational aspect couple times for four of the pleasure of being able to work with you on the core networks multigenerational roundtable but the first time had cardio was an event in new york city. There is run by shirley job at circle. Ci arcade which is such an innovative organization. Curious if you tell us a little bit about the interracial mentoring you've done with circle. Yeah it's funny just before. I got on this podcast. I had a conversation with one of my circle. Friends who. I've met through the mentoring program at circle. I love circle. I think onto something i think she's raves to go out on the hustings and raise money for an effort like this to bring generations into a kind of sharing mode is not mentoring as much as sharing our stories in. I was on the phone this morning with heather dole and who i met several months ago. And we've been meeting and talking almost every week. She works full-time. She works for a outplacement firm. Gray christmas the big one. One of the big one and she's working remotely now. She's got three kids at home a teenager and a eight year old a little one six years old marriage. she's got an identical twin sister that she's obviously really tight with her mother. Her father's passed away so she's got a very rich light and the first time we met she said to me. This is gonna sound weird. And don't think i'm weird but i have a feeling we met in a previous life and she told me that she is been very interested in past life. Shen therapy written by a guy by the name of brian wice. He's kind of the guru of this. So i read it. I've done these exercises that she does where you are essentially hypnotized in you attempt to identify whether you've had some past lives and it's fascinating and i have every reason to believe in this concept you know it's not a religious concept it's a. I've had those experiences where i walked into a place and i said i think i've been here before it feels familiar. Sometimes people feel familiar. I've read a lot about memory recently. Because i'm writing a memoir in the whole science of memory that each of us has a unique heart of our brain. That only we have now because it's based on everything. We've read every person we've met ever experienced we've had it's not like anybody else's and memory. I've read the science of it from eric. Kandel he's the guy won the nobel prize for this. He said that basically memory is created by an electric impulse learning knowledge electric impulse. That triggers a chemical response end depending on the power of the electrical implant or pulse. More chemical get in that creates differences in long term memory in short term memory and the chemical her house. Emotion gives it meaning. It gives meaning that lasts but it's a chemical caused caused by an electrical signal. Wow that's pretty cool. So memory is our life our life is memory and what that meaning is so. Why wouldn't that have been developed. In other circumstances. I did do the exercise. That dr weiss. Who's a yale trained psychiatrist with like the fellow from yale who was a neurologist or neurosurgeon who had a near death experience and saw heaven. He wrote the book called proof of heaven. I read that too. I have no reason to discount it. He talked to hundreds of people who've had near death experiences. Do i discount that from a yale. Trained neurosurgeon no. I don't actually so these things in our so. Heather introduced me to that and it was a gift. I introduced her to encore. And she's referring her clients outplacement clients to some of the things. I've trained so i i love her. I mean i've met other people who wanted help and learning how to get onto nonprofit that i can help but then another one who was very current music. She got man to hold new music scene. And of course. I've known jonathan from that program. We know from the roundtable and i loved that young man because he wants to talk not a lot of young men do and he likes talking to me and i bothered him a lot during the election. I wanted to know what people in their early thirties. Were thinking about politics. And i was living with an outrage a day and most of the time he was cool and calm because he wasn't into it the way i was and i was actually relieved for him because he hasn't worked as a long term partner. He has an apartment to take care of. You doesn't need to be vexed every day by the outrages of the last administration was pretty good if you only have one outrage for the that's a great about something but i think it was great the horror multigenerational roundtable that you brought in the generation and really made it much. The i did that because those three people in that roundtable of the diner town of us made it completely different. I think we ended up. We would have just been blabbing about being old. She mentioned memory. And one thing that i think we're all looking forward to becoming quarter memory will be there. Forever is the pandemic. I'm curious about. What key lessons you learn personally during the pandemic well. That's interesting. i did say too early. I feel like i was born for this pandemic. Because i realize that i am very comfortable in my own skin. I'm by myself. That doesn't mean that. I don't like to but i feel like it's slowed my life down to a better balanced actually between inner and outer stuff and that i don't wanna lose during the pandemic had an excuse to not go out now. I have to like say no going to stay home tonight or whatever so that. That's one thing. I miss my family. I miss the intimacy children now. My son passed away six years ago. So i have seven nieces and one nephew and then some of the nieces are starting to have children. So i have two grand nephews in like eight ten six so i have a big crowd and i'm really close to my siblings and i've gotten closer and the pandemic has even sharpen that up. I am blessed with healthy siblings. I'm the oldest one on the bossy one. I sort of organize the sibling thing. But it that. I learned just how important they are. I mean they always were but that's venture and then good. Friendships have actually gotten deeper. I don't miss going to events. You know a. I've been to enough of them at the waldorf astoria for like charities. I ever have to do that again. I hope i don't get caught up in doing things that i don't feel i want to do but i feel like i have to. Do i want to give up a lot of the half to do stuff. And i think the world needs to think through things like business in tourism. I i live part time here in hawaii now and there's a lot of conversation about cap the tourism because we have loved it here without tourists in we all got waikiki back and i don't know what will happen. There's also hawaii had the worst economic fallout from the pandemic. They did very well keeping covert at bay because they shut the airport stone bud. The economy is eighty percent tourism. It shouldn't be you know that. So i'm hoping there's always talk here about trying to diversify the economy and i- i lament the loss of restaurant time with friends that i had in my life in new york. I saved a lot of money by not putting up my visa card. Every time i had a dinner but i'm really that's been in. That was a lot of that in the theater. Where my socialization so. I'm really dreading what we've lost with restaurants and theater. That will never come back so he eventually they will maybe not in my lifetime. I can't say i've got very into how art in theater and performance evolved is. Somehow it just didn't i just can't watch ballet on my computer. I can't. it's not the same thing. So i have loved live performance so not having that has been really hard and i pray that we support the and pray that the feds come up with money for the arts at come because they are for new york. It's our economy too. So there's you know teaching. I don't wanna teach Hundred person class on that sounds awful but ten people who live around the country would never be in the same room. That's worked out better than i ever expected. I've had you have to adapt and it's not perfect in a perfect world. I would do a hybrid. I would teach my class starting with the weekend. Like a friday night and saturday in person and then i would do the rest of down to the benefits of i would want pay to fly people in were were they were then go home and do it on the valerie. Perfect with what's one thing you want to keep doing. Post the pandemic. What's one thing you want to look up and wanna keep reading. I have forced myself. I've created a little rule. I have to read fifty pages a day on that depending on what i'm reading that can be fifty pages of eric. Kendall's making numerous was hard. Because he had this worm that he used to study brain activity. And i had to skip a lot of the worm stuff but historians a refugee jewish refugee coming here surviving and becoming nobel prize under that was wonderful. Anyway i wanna keep reading. I want to keep my family front and center. I think i'm i'm writing this memoir my nieces because it's a tale of a girl. It's a woman. The girl in a woman and there are things. I hope they learn. Sooner than i learned things like the value of compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. Because that way you can afford to retire. You start saving early. So that's my man. I certainly want to give up inconsequential gatherings. That's what i want to give up. I'll send a check. I feel i've often felt a lot of burden to do those kinds of things to show my support. I gotta figure out other ways to show my support because other people go to the event. I don't need one more event. So i do want to keep religious about that my experience on the round table and also being part of two different book clubs one book club writing club here in hawaii has taught me that real gift of kind of small gatherings in different people but they've become different nodes in my network and i really like that and it keeps me. I'm not in charge. I love not being in charge. So i like to be one of ten kinda bossy still and i know things so i kind of do my thing because i liked things to happen and thanks to go forward kind of good at keeping things going but i don't wanna be in charge. I want to give that up so number of people. Listen to our podcast are coming up on retirement. Or they're just in retirement and they're not done yet. They're thinking about corker. What advice would you offer them. Business earn experience retrieved through well mainly because of the class. I wanted to teach. It came from doing some reading ahead of time so anybody who asked me that question each them get. The book transitions by william bridges. And start thinking about endings. That's the first stage in his three stage process and one of the things. I learned from reading his book. And this is i wasn't very good at endings. I like to just say it's overdone. Go on forget about it but you really need to take the learning out of a good ending and learn to live with it. Ingred it and be prepared for changes. That aren't all wonderful. You have to get very realistic but then get some dreaming. One of the things that bridges did for me was he said at the near the end. It was book. Pay attention to your dreams. Pay attention to those little flashes. And that's where. I remember having these little images of being in a classroom. And that's when serene gave me that serendipity moment about did i wanna teach in white what the other half of the students at seminary do that connected with that dream. I think that's great advice. So read that book think about concluding that stage almost have a ritual for how you finish that stage but start to put some things in place that you dabble with. I had one student wants who had this wonderful model. She was a retired judge. She was exhausted when she retired. She just wanted to drop dead. It the intensity that commute the judge and she said. I just really interested in what's going on with the environment. I have paid attention. And she just started to listen to read to go to places she said. I'm not in a hurry. i don't feel any pressure. And now she is one of the climate reality spokespeople for al gore and. She's running program at croton on hudson her home community to make carbon neutral by twenty twenty or whatever twenty thirty forty whatever it is but she had faith than if she stayed in this learning mode. It would be something would appear for her. I loved that story. And i tell it to a lot of my students who feel anxious. The men are more anxious than the women and one of the things that bridges says. Is you have to live with ambiguity in that second stage which he calls the neutral zone. That can be a couple years where you try things. Don't try so it's a wonderful stage but it's really scary if you get into the mode of that kind of three stage model ending neutral zone new beginning that bridges talks about and you have managed expectations. It can be a really good time. The hardest thing is when people struggle with health and finances. The rest of us have neither of that. We are blessed and we should never take it for granted. Great advice thank you so much. Thank you for agreeing conversation. Missile help many people and highlighted something valuable pearls of wisdom near thank you my pleasure and it's always my pleasure to be with you joe and encourage you to keep up your important work. Iraqi voice annakie example of beyond guard movement. So thank you so much really appreciate wouldn't taking time to share her insights and wisdom with us. Lots of great ideas a lot of great points that she made. I'd like to spend a couple minutes highlighting in underscoring three of them that i think might be useful to think about the first. Is her comments about the transition to retirement being one of those seminal. Life moments in fact retirements the tenth most stressful life event. But she notes it's also catalyst and it's a catalyst for many people to narrow their focus and go deeper on the things that really matter most. So what's up for you. What's a list of things you may have put to the side and didn't have the chance to or didn't give proper attention to as you'd like. What are those things explore. What are those things you want to engage. More deeply with point to her comments about revisiting. The work of william bridges in particular about endings. The event is not the ending. It's a three phase process and it really makes sense to pay attention to the whole process of the ending in getting to the next phase reminded me of the book by richard roar. Falling upward talks about how japanese soldiers were having a difficult time coming back from the war until someone realized they needed a ritual ritual the mark. The ending of that face delineated. Clearly and i'll pave the way for the transition to the next phase of life. And i love her vice achier laid from bridges about pay attention to your dreams and in particular those flashes that might give you a glimpse what your future could be in a might just inspire you to pursue something new in different pathway and finally point three networking your contacts from your career will be very helpful. But they might not be exactly enough. We want to cultivate some new networks. Some new relationships and build a new tribe. That may help you get to a different destination. Might take some different folks. It's gonna meet new. People want to be strategic about it but also be open to things as they develop. So it's worth taking a look at your network one of our other podcast guests. Kelly ho. He had a great Comment about this. But evaluating the breath and depth of your network or as a strong work to be better and as you think about your future where do you need to baby cultivates new relationships in some new connections. You'll find ruth woods full bio in our show notes along with a wink to the program. She talked about that. She created in runs at union. Theological seminary new york city. Sounds like it'll be a great resource for many people. So i encourage you check that out and thank you for listening to retire wisdom podcast. Our mission is to help. People retire smarter by bouncing their retirement. Planning with the nonfinancial side. Retiring ken seem like the end. But it's not it's actually the beginning the beginning of your next chapter so pays to be smart about it. Dedicate time attention in leveraged resource to help you get to where you really want to go next. Thank you for joining us today. On the retirement. Wisdom podcast you can listen to all episodes of our podcast by subscribing to them on apple. Podcasts google podcasts. Spotify stitcher or on our website at retirement wisdom dot com.

Ruth wooden mike belan richard roth cyrus vance Daniel yankelovich senator bill bradley ruth Mike class minneapolis institute of art mcconnell clark foundation mark friedman margaret mark grad school eric erikson william bridges porter novelli judith minneapolis marciel joan chichester William bridges
Robert Lefkowitz: A Soldier of Science

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

47:22 min | 2 months ago

Robert Lefkowitz: A Soldier of Science

"I'm alan olga. And this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating in that class. Four of us onto on nobel prize and one who didn't was tony voucher. he was another colleague. We all knew each other then. And you know when. I look back on. Who would have ever dreamed of such things so the question is what. How did that happen. That's nobel prize winner robert lefkowitz. He won the nobel prize for figuring out how receptors on the surface of ourselves can be targeted by drugs. But he got his start as researcher as a member of an extraordinary group of young physicians. Who worked at the national institutes of health as a means of fulfilling their draft obligations during the vietnam war. This conversation is an edited version of a long talk. I had with bob and some of his colleagues for an audible dot com. Podcast called soldiers of science. In a moment we'll get to how the work of that group of researchers help save millions of lives but first here's a typical bob. Lefkowitz anecdote did not only speaks to his approach to science but also his love of a good story. I remember the date. October tenth Two thousand twelve. I was at a press conference. Because i had received word that morning That i won the nobel prize and One of the question is said. I see your native new yorker Did you root for the yankees. I said are you kidding. Lived for the yankees and he said. Can you remember the batting order. And i remember. I started right off phil rizzuto. This is amazing. You win the nobel prize and the question to answer. Who batted for exactly right. Isn't that something. Nobody cared about what i had done. But but i did remember the batting. Also the uniform numbers. When i heard this that you could do this. Yeah i wondered if this was a mark of a good scientist to be able to remember a lot of things and then later put things together. They don't normally go together. I think that that's a very astute observation. I think that a big part of making discoveries is putting together disparate things And so just remembering little bits and pieces. And then all of a sudden serendipitous concern deputies. Another big partisans Another piece of the puzzle falls in auntie lap and you say wait a minute you know. Eleven years ago. I saw this that and the other thing and if this goes with that so i think you're absolutely right the ability to put together disparate things Is an important part of the the creative scientific process and they have to sort of be available in your head exactly because they're not linked it. They don't necessarily come up an associated way right. You gotta you gotta somehow have that creative urge that brings them up when they not usually linked absolutely and you know You know a lot about creativity because he ever go to humor and humor. I often point out to my fellows that there's some really interesting common links between humor and the process of discussion about that. I think that's really fascinating. So the essence most people who know me consider me fairly funnier. Not because. I tell jokes. Because i don't i just tell stories and so the essence of humor is putting together two things which you might not necessarily in fact. They seem to jar there They just don't go together and then in a moment in the punchline you connect those two things and there's a flash of recognition. Okay and every time you get a joke. You're making a little discovery yourself. You're putting those two things together. It's an a ha. I hadn't thought of it that way and in a flash this humor there and you know so. There's a little s- discovery if you will every time you get a joke. The story of the soldiers science began during the vietnam war when all young male physicians were automatically drafted in a highly competitive selection process. A handful were chosen to serve in the united states public health service caring for patients and doing research at the national institutes of health at the age of twenty three recently graduated from medical school. Bob let go. It's was one of them. I asked him for is personal feelings about the war. I was very much against it. i had you know marched and demonstrations and this and that and that was one of the major reasons that i didn't want him to do it and this seemed like a honorable Way to fulfill my obligation to to the country to serve for two years So yeah that was the main impetus to it. Did you face any prejudice about not going overseas and and facing the the battles that other people were facing not overtly and again. I think that's just because most of the people that i seem to wind up associating with sort of from my peer group but that was a pejorative name for those of us who were serving the nih in the public health service which you may have heard yellow berets. I don't know if you've heard that i have a i. I wondered where it began. You have any idea about the origin. And then no and i looked into this more the one occasion it just seemed to sort of well up and of course the The reference was to green berets. Who were these heroic Commando elite forces And then yellow berets yellow for For cowardice so but the interesting thing is we refer to ourselves as yellow berets took an on his As a joke. Yeah joke like badge of honor perfectly stated exactly right and to this day You know one of the things about that program. That's so remarkable. Is that virtually my entire generation of medical academicians came out of that program. i mean it's really amazing. I mean and they've been studied this. I mean at one point something. Like thirty percent of the harvard medical school faculty had been yellow berets. And when we talk about some of my very best friends to this day of course most of us are either retired semi retired or on our last legs as they say hanging on by teeth but yeah we refer to ourselves as yellow burris. Some not all mean. Some people really don't like it. That is exactly right i. I'm thinking of one one friend Very prominent yellow bray and also nobel laureate. I won't mention his name. Who bridles at the use of the term. He's a friend of mine. I know who you're okay. What did you start out doing at the nih. Well i started out working on a project. I was fortunate in that. I had two mentors One named jesse rothe in one named ira past and both in their mid eighties both still alive. Quite active and It was fascinating they had worked very closely together for a number of years I thought they were very senior scientist. He'll probably in the mid late thirties But they seem very old to me. They really did And one of the interest that they had was in something called hormone receptors Which at the time were sort of fan of an imaginary idea that sells would have on their surface. Molecules that would specifically recognize hormones drugs like adrenaline histamine serotonin It's not as though this was just a surmise a surmise exactly and many didn't believe in And those who did kind of a very foggy conception of it that well they don't nearly need to exist just some way of trying to understand things And so their idea. Was that if you could somehow label lease receptors with say a radioactively labeled hormone or radioactively labeled drug That you might be able to study them And for some complicated reasons. They were mostly just practicality. They selected a particular hormone called. Septa should quarter cottrill. Hormone which stimulates what kind of hormone green accord tropic. Hormone they call. Why didn't you today's act h to you. That's what they call it. That's what they call it my job to see if i could find a receptor for. Act age but you know this interest me talking about the the life of science. Yeah there were people who said this is just a surmise. Roy waste your time. There's no evidence who what makes you think receptors even exist right. Exactly you are betting your career correct. So how did you what. How did you way that what what were the factors that made you say. This is a good bet. Wonderful question So initially of course. I didn't worry about it. You know the boss said do this so you know you're going to do this. But then it failed over and over and over again nothing worked So what what failed. What was your hypothesis. Just that that they existed in that i could find i could get my radioactively labeled hormone to stick to something that would look like a receptor And i couldn't make it work Those failures help you learn something In the long run yes in the long run like don't do that. What they mainly learnt taught me over. Of course the first eighteen months was how to fail. And that was the most important lesson for me. Because i had never failed at anything not in any significant way interesting. I was always top of my class whether it was in school or medical school. I was always stood out even in areas where i had no natural ability like sports. I could. By dint of hard work. you know. Become the fastest runner. The best batter n. Study in academia. Yeah if you're learning stuff that's already known it's possible if you really sharp and work hard not to fail but if you're looking for something that's not known yet you don't even know if it exists you bound to fe right and it's a bet and it's like any bit that you make you don't know there are certain odds you're only here you don't even know the odds but what convinced me And again in the end it's sort of like people become a champion for an idea. I was convinced from all sorts of indirect data. This has to be true. okay. And i can't necessarily even explain why i mean it. Just go through. Each of the scientific lines of evidence. There was so much specificity in drug action. you You take a drug like adrenaline. You can make a tiny little modification it and it doesn't work anymore Or another tiny modification and works even better and things like that convinced me there have to be some something on the cell that it was fitting into like a key fitting into a lock and it's got to be just right And so i was absolutely committed. And even though i continued to fail I kept the faith but it was. I'm not saying i was Model in that regard. I got probably clinically depressed during that time really. Yeah from the persistent failure. Yes i had never dealt with failure before clinically depressed. That's horrible. yeah now. that's my diagnosis. Okay we're in a clinic and you were debris exactly right exactly right you got it. I mean i know how did you get out of that. Was zarina moment where you said. I don't need to be depressed anymore. He discovered the secret of the universe. When there were experiments started working that but there was an interesting thing that sort of deepen the whole thing. And i would say the deepest trough i was ever in emotionally in. My life occurred Toward the eighteen month. Mark at the so i had been failing repeatedly and then My father died And suddenly and that was an amazing blow. I'll never forget it three weeks before he died which was in mid december. I went home for thanksgiving With my family. And i was really decisi. Depressed greta so at this point i'm twenty four years old i go home. I'm an only child. I was very close to my dad. the thing about my relationship with my father was that he had a lot of common commonsense. Whenever i had a problem of any kind i would discuss it with them. Somehow we talk through. We come to so i got home and we had this wonderful conversation where i told how unhappy i was. That was a total failure at research. and yeah was just miserable and he listened and he said what are you so upset about. He said you always want to be a practicing physician and cardiologist. He says this is you fulfilling your military obligation. You're almost done and what's the big deal you'll go back to your clinical training. You'll become duckie. Always wanted to be. Who cares and you know. It made a lot of sense and it was like everything. Lifted went back after that. That was the last time. I spoke to him And i got a call. I was in clinic at the nih three weeks later with my buddy harold varmus Who was in medical school classmate bench made in the lab. We've been house officers together. And i got a call saying he had dropped it Bombers drove me home and we got into column. We drove to new york for the funeral. The reason i bring up the story was it was only a month or so after that that my research started to work But of course. I was still morning my father but over the next few years as i tried to figure out what to do with myself and as i found myself being drawn more and more deeply into research That conversation the last conversation my father played on my mind because we like i've held certain level. We worked out a plan and the plan was to go back to clinical medicine fulfill the dream. That i had had and which i guess he had for me and now You got drawn deeper and deeper into research and more and more was realizing you know. I wasn't gonna spend my life tending to patients for the most part. I was betraying this deal. That i made with my dad Took me about five six years to work through all that. But i did. But as you got veteran better at showing that there were receptors in that could be used for drug delivery for instance. You must have realized that this was something that would make your father really happy absolutely and you know the the the thing that has often been on my mind that on the day he died when my career had come to was tremendous academic success as a student an abject failure at trying to do research. And that's where it was when he died. And when i think what happened over the years after that my god My father Actually wrote a letter to his brothers younger brother who lived in california and entity said today bobby graduated from medical school who it is the proudest and happiest day of my life and i remember think wow if graduating from medical. School was the proudest day of his life. What the hell would he thought about what happened after that. That's so interesting that you were concerned about disappointing him absolutely and yet the work you did once you had you have you have. An enormous breakthrough was a gradual. It was a series of breakthroughs a series of breakthroughs. Each one building. There were a lot of a ha moments And they they just kept coming over a number of years and eventually all the drugs that we take to get better from various illnesses of of o- of all the drugs all the medications we take. What percentage do you think involve the class of receptors. That you figured out. They say it's about a third of all. Fda approved drugs. Father not be happy. I'm just gonna say. I look back on it. Most of them were not invented when he passed away. What a difference would have made in his life. I mean i have the same coronary artery. Disease that that i got from him But here i am seventy six The quadruple bypass I take I probably take two or three medicines that work on the receptors that we studied. None of them were available when he was alive as a bittersweet thing about that probably with every new advance you know that the next generation will benefit from it. And so something. I don't get is. Why did the nih feel. It was important to bring physicians in to learn to do research. Why didn't they bring in researchers who already partly there. What's the advantage of combining a clinical physician with a research project again. A so wonderful question. i think that the reasons they were doing it. We're probably very practical. But i think it turned out to have much more widespread influence than they could have ever imagined. I think they were doing it. Because it was a a ready source of first of all they needed physicians to take care of the The patients at the clinical center. So the you know So he needed to have some physicians. Plus there was this ready Source of talent. You know that we're going to be drafted one way or another so wanna get some of them But i don't think they would necessarily aware of the importance of the physician scientist Which i think emerged over the next couple of decades from what was accomplished by my generation of yellow berets. so what is the importance of the physician scientists. What what is the physician. Add to the scientist half of the combination. I think that it has to do with the ability of physicians to perceive Both in advance and after discoveries are made just how basic science discoveries can lead to clinical advances this sort of this holistic understanding of human biology. That i think you only get from a medical education Rather than from a highly specialized phd in genetics. Or or you know some Some other such field so can can you. Can you pinpoint any way in which that happens for you. When you were thinking about receptors. Was there something that you knew as a physician that you wouldn't have known as simply researcher that help you make the connection. I think that my interest in receptors. In the deep interested. I had had to do with the fact that i appreciate that. If you could find these mythical receptors that i believed and if you could find them and learn to manipulate them that here's the thing it wasn't anything specific it was the faith Lack of a better word that this would have to have very broad implications if you could find the receptors and learn to manipulate them designed drugs to fit into them. Golly you could regulate virtually any physiological process in our body and that got to be good and it was that was that was as far as into the futures. I could see so maybe gave you because of your experience touching patients. Yeah you had an impetus you had a drive. That kept you going beyond beyond point. You might have stopped when everybody was telling you. They don't even exist exactly right. And then after i set up my own laboratory duke. Nineteen seventy-three The same was true. It was a long road from the very beginning of my research. to win it began being applied. Not it's not that. I'm looking for a cure but my whole sense of of what's what's a useful problem to go after Or interesting problem. I should say is always colored by you know if you could do that. I'll bet you it might have some applications. It sounds like you've got to brain's working at the same time one. He's just plain purely curious. Right how does nature were exactly and the other lights Weight of nature works that way. We can do it exactly right right on right on the money when we come back from our break bob let go which talks about what he feels is his most important scientific legacy and it's not just that his discoveries have saved millions of lives. Clear and vivid can be downloaded for free because it supported by our sponsors and by as they say people like you but there are no people like you. You're you we wanna make sure you know about patriot. Dot com slash clear and vivid. That's where if you love hearing from the extraordinary guests we have on our shows. You can become a patron and get early access to special videos. And at the highest here you can join me in our monthly get together online. I think you'll find out that the listeners to our podcast are often as much fun to hear from our guest. We're grateful to you will thank you. And don't forget to check out. Patriotic dot com slash clear and vivid. Fun is good and seriously fun is even better which is why pretty much every morning. You can find me slurping cheerios. They raised serious questions. I eat them. Would i gravitate to them if they weren't round. How did they get round. Who thought that up. But the fun doesn't end there cheerios. Those happy little os or a heart healthy food that can help. Lower cholesterol is part of a heart. Healthy diet and honey nut cheerios. Cheerios made with real. Honey they're really happy. They say if you hold the box really close to your ear and hold your breath you can hear them giggling. I don't know who actually says that. But if you wanna giggle with a healthy heart think about making cheerios regular part of your diet there. One hundred percent whole grain oats in a happy shape. They make his smile inside and out. Be good to yourself and have fun. While you're doing it. Learn more about a heart healthy lifestyle. Cheerios dot com and find honey nut. Cheerios wherever you shop for cereal. This is clear and vivid. And now back to my conversation with bob left with any extraordinary impact that those soldiers of science would have on medical research in the nih associates program Between nineteen sixty four. Nine thousand. nine hundred seventy two. That's eight years And they weren't that many of us. I don't know maybe several dozen year in that program Nine of us went on to win the nobel prize. I mean that's crazy. And as i say except seven of nine of us had no research experience before we went in my class. If you will nineteen sixty eight to seventy so we graduate all of us graduated medical school in sixty six and then we went to the nih from sixty eight to seventy in that class. Four of us went onto won nobel prize and one. Who didn't was tony falco. He was another colleague. We all knew each other then And you know when. I look back on it. Who would have ever dreamed of such thinks. the question is what. How did that happen. But it sounds like you had an advantage that we don't have now gladly sure on the part of many people. Which is that. You had the draft right so people were incentivized to go to take their clinical experience and apply it basically that brings up something which has been on my mind for a long time. It wouldn't it. Wouldn't have the same compelling nature but i believe that there should be a draft In the sense of for a couple of years of service you have to do national service Which might include this kind of thing so you could get deferred for example as we were through college. You get more deferments to get through medical school. More deferments to get through Maybe a few years of residency. But then at some point you would have to serve for two years and the service that you all performed is amazing the when you think of just the nobel prize winners alone. Nine who k. Right program there were the others who didn't actually win. Nobel prize went on to head department. And exactly i mean the nobel prize assists the tippy tippy tip of the iceberg. I mean i'm telling you in my generation virtually anybody who was a professor of medicine or a dean or ahead of a medical center. Everybody came out of that program. And what did they produce in terms of the ability to improve people's health and save lives. I mean when you think about one third of medications involved in receptors that you worked on that you were so let me get. Let me a millions of people. Well let me let me give you a stunning example. Let's take the four of us from the class of sixty eight to seventy. Okay yeah so we talked about my own research and a third of all drugs herald. Vomit discovered the first oncogene the first cancer causing gene together with a a research partner. Michael bishop who was also yellow beret also nobel prize winner but to three before varmus. Okay so a third of all medicines for my receptors varmus Oncogenes cancer causing genes has led to the ultimately the entire revolution of drugs. That we have. Now you know that treat The mutant genes that he and then otherwise discovered. Then brown goldstein. Statins cancer heart disease. And then of course receptor drugs like you know having heart disease and diabetes and hypertension just everything so just from that one class. What an amazing yield That millions of life millions of lives far. Yes so far exactly. And that's just from that one class Doesn't mention all the other stuff in the immunology and it's just aids and yeah it's interesting. It's sad that this couldn't be understood. At the time that people who use the term yellow beret as a term of opprobrium as a way to call you. Cowards that you orange serving your country saving the country. That's that's very wonderful perspective. And in hindsight of whatever forty years fifty is Very true did you. All at the time have an awareness of what you work would lead to did you. Did you have a a glow about you. That i'm doing an important stuff here. Absolutely not you shaking your head before you today right. I thought it was gonna be a big yet. Because i think back on it and i think of of just how far we were in our consciousness from any appreciation there. We're learning something and Once it started working it was a lot of fun And i think you know. Even by the time i finished there i was thinking. Well you know this is probably going to affect my career. I i may be heading in a different direction. I wasn't sure yet. I may be heading in a different direction but the idea of what would come from it. Not even close. I mean there was no awareness for what what propelled you aside from this awareness as a physician that you might be onto something that could be valuable. There's that other thing that researchers tell me all the time the notion that you are now in possession of knowledge of view of nature. The nobody in the world has ever seen before so true so very true and it doesn't have to be a nobel prize winning discovery. I can remember when i was at the bench myself. Which i haven't been many years and i the end of the day. I would stand at the simulation counter machine accounts radio-activity different vials. So i'm actually seeing in real time now. The result of the experiment. That i've done today before i go home Not the final result but the preliminary result. And i would see this happened. That went up. Went down and i would know in that moment. There's no other human being who knows 'cause nobody exactly that stupid little tiny increment of information and it's yeah that thought would actually occur to you. Yeah so interesting. Yeah i mean. And i think what you said is true. I think the scientists because that's the every experiment a little discovery. And i always try to tell my students. My fellows have never. Could it be true with it. You know they talk about. It's the journey not the destination. Yes i if you're waiting in until you solve the big problem it's going to be a long way. But if every little experiment even when an experiment fails it can teach a lot but everyone is a little discovery. And that's what keeps you afloat from day to day even when you don't seem to be making progress just every day home with little little extra nugget of information. The importance of that little nugget of information became vividly apparent to bob when he left the nih program to pursue the career. He thought he was preparing for as working physician. In one thousand nine hundred seventy he went to massachusetts general hospital to do a senior residency in cardiology. The first six months were all intense. Clinical work and i liked it. I liked it. I didn't love it the way used to. But that's when i realized something was missing. And what was that data. I had no dade. I've gotten used to having data every day. Good bad or different in other words. The scientific process was missing I would go home at night. Not having a new experiment that think about not having a problem that i was working on and i really missed it. And that was the first inkling that wait a minute. I'm going to need to get back into a laboratory to at least have part of my career I'm part of my thinking. Engaged with a scientific problem really were transformed exactly. I didn't realize it. Even at the time i left the nih I remember my mentor. Saying you can't leave. Bob problem you making real headways and now i mean realizes who's fun at the end and at work and we published a few papers. I said but i'm going off to pursue what i always dreamed of but then when i got back into it i realized something is missing and i realized what it was So that was a transformation that transformation and continue over the next few years It would probably take me another five to eight years to become fully. Let's say five years to fully embrace that. But what i realized is the i had another calling. I remember talking. Not that long ago to a student group i give them a talk about my career and i titled a tale of two callings because i had the calling to clinical medicine but then i had the calling research. I mean and by calling me something. You don't think about it. It's not a rational thing you just no. I meant to do this. Whatever this is. And yeah so i had the second calling which became apparent. Not because i thought it through. But just by what. I became so when i started at duke in nineteen seventy three So young faculty member. I would say the first year i probably spend sixty percent of my time. He's a rough figure. Could've been fifty percent in the setting up my lab the other fifty or forty percent seeing patients clinics rounding etc by the second year. It probably those definitely sixty forty by the third year was probably seventy five. Twenty five by the fourth and fifth year was like ninety ten. Because i was thinking that it just that happened because i became obsessed with the laboratory. Something something became awakened in you exactly. Something became awakened and it would not sleep and i became obsessed with The problems i was working on. I love The sheet of suggestions are rules that you laid out for your student and you have one that i think number ten. Yeah that's funny and deadly serious so you gotta be enthusiastic about budget work. You have to really care a lot about it. You have to be convinced. It's worthwhile and i have to be convinced right exactly for me. Doing the science with my fellows is joy and i see it very much as a combined process. We're both in it together through an it's a real bonding thing when you finally are successful To have suffered through it together and come out the other side But part of the key to that. I always telling us you said is unique to be excited about it. But i need to be excited about it. So and then you passing on your work experience your intuitions to another generation and pushing that boat off from shore exactly and where do you think it's gonna go. What do you have any idea what your legacy through. Your students will be the the over think about that. I do think about the fact that frankly as much as anything. We've done in the laboratory together. The legacy is the people I consider myself Fortunate and thrilled that in my field as it's constituted today most of the people around my lineage that is to take all the stars the first generation people trained with me and the people trained with them and then and it's come to be a bit of a thing at big international meetings Were you know. I'll often give the opening talk or the closing talk. Somebody at some point. we'll put up a lineage slide of the people who are on the program all grade and starting with me and then all things and you know it's impressive. You know thirty. Forty percent of everybody presenting will descended on the tree and of course there's so many generations now because the generation time is short. You know so when you read the work of people who have descended from your generation beyond are you surprised. Do you think oh. Look where it went. Yes very often. As wow what an interesting development that is and you see them putting their own creativity on the thing and but yet you can also see the intellectual line you can sort of. Yeah i can see how we got there. But then the really good ones. You said. there's a leap there if i have made that But that that. I love that and people are always coming up to me at meetings and saying well. You don't know me but i'm eighth generation left goals. Of course. I don't know them because you know they trained with a guy who you know but and that's always a big kick for me. Yeah that's great. Always it like for you when you found out you wanna nobel prize and what what time of day was right so five. Am i get a call or you're asleep. You weren't up all night waiting. No not at all. I know it's really interesting I have a funny After dinner talk that. I give called A funny thing happened on the way to stockholm and It it talks about the fact that for a good. I was sixty nine when i won the prize. And that's not unusual. I know a lot of people are much older than that Eric kandel yeah. He was in his seventies when he won but So fit a good twenty years before i won the prize. People were saying to me bob. You're gonna win the nobel prize. Or why haven't you win one. When are you going to win. The nobel prize already was then a rumor that you're there you might or didn't come totally added totally out of the blue Simply people people are convinced. Based on the body of work i had published that it was nobel worthy and that i would win the prize but then years went by and didn't happen and i went through a phase of saying you know i. I didn't think work with of that but as the years passed and it became clear. Even i said you know this is pretty good. You never know what's gonna come. But i when i saw these drugs and everything is still. It didn't happen and so after a certain number of years. I said well this is not happening. It's not the end of the world. And i about it but you know i didn't wait by the phone. Put it that way and then there was an even stranger thing. Which is that the nobel prizes as you may know. are awarded in a set fashion. Each day of the week won prizes announced mondays. Medicine tuesday is physics wednesdays chemistry thursday is economic etc at thursday's literature Well an particular week that i won the prize. Monday had come and gone. As i say not but i was waiting by the phone but you know i didn't win but then i got the call on wednesday decided to give it to us in chemistry forgotten. That's why But it turns out that that often happens that is so much overlap between medicine chemistry especially biochemistry and my work. If you had to put one specific area biochemistry. I mean we. We figured out what the receptors were biochemical work. So the thing that amazed me people say to me. Were you surprised when you got the call. The standard answer a gift. Because it's true is yes and no no. I wasn't surprised because for twenty years people who've been telling me you're going to win the prize. Could it be surprised. Yeah yes in the sense that there was no leak. No rummage no nothing. I mean. I've heard leaks in certain years where you know you say. Oh have you heard they say so and so is going to win and they do But there was nothing. I mean had apte much less than chemistry so it a total shock so you pick up the phone. What are you here. Well what happened is my wife answered the phone. I sleep with your plugs In a cocoon. I've got a mask on my face and your plugs. i'm gone So she answered the phone which is on a headboard behind us and she gave me an elbow She said there's a woman calling from stockholm And so immediately and over your mind. It's nobel week granted. It's not the right day but why the hell of a calling One of the first things that occurred to me is. I have heard a couple of stories where they're trying to reach scientists to win the nobel prize and they can't so they're calling another scientists in the area to see if he knows where they ought meeting is that so you're nine four four one one to her. Yeah exactly. that's what. I was concerned that they say dr left. Nobel calling do you know where dr so and so my really smart guy. Exact right but no. She said she immediately gave it away. She said this is so and so from the nobel From from the royal swedish academy. I'm going to put on dr so and so the head of the nobel prize committee in chemistry. Who has some good news for you. So at that point. I knew and i can tell you that. He told me. I can tell you that i did not have a eureka or an amazing experience. It was more to a quiet sense of satisfaction and relief. The people would start telling. The monkey is off my back as i said at the beginning of this episode. What you've been listening to is an edited version of a much longer conversation. I had with bob lefkowitz as part of a podcast called soldiers of science so we can't end with our usual seven questions but you can listen. Not just bob story. But also those of some of his fellow soldiers of science including anthony foul cheese. You'll find it at audible. Dot com has been clear and vivid. At least i hope so. My thanks to the sponsor of this podcast and to one of you. Who support our show on patriotic. You keep clear and vivid up and running. And after we pay expenses whatever's leftover goes to the all the center for communicating science at stony brook university. So your support is contributing to the better communication of science. We're very grateful. Robert left co which was awarded the nobel prize in chemistry along with his colleague. Brian kobiljaca in two thousand twelve. Bob hope several professorships duke university school of medicine and over the past decade. he's discovered novel properties of the receptors. He discovered over thirty years ago. That work has led to the possibility of an entirely new class of drugs. The talk he mentioned in our conversation called a funny thing happened on the way to stockholm is now a delightful book. This episode was edited and produced by our executive producer. Graham shed with help from our associate producer. Jean chaumet are sound engineers. Erica and our publicist sarah hill. You can subscribe to our podcast for free at apple podcasts. Stitcher or you like to listen next series of conversations. I talk with veteran science journalist. Dennis overby for twenty years. Danis has been bringing us in the pages of the new york times stories of the wonders and mysteries of the universe. I don't know if i learned much. Physics at mit. But i learned how to kind of look like a physicist dressed like a physicist and hang out with the physicist so much that i was just part of the furniture and and and they would forget i was there and then you can start doing good reporting and then catching people being themselves which is an important part of science. I think dannon overby next time on clear and vivid. Meanwhile on our other podcast science clear and vivid. I talk with dafna show homey. She's a memory researcher. Who sees memories as much more than static recollections of the past. Think one of the exciting things to realized in in research and life is is exactly how pervasive memory is that. It's really not just about creating a long lasting record of an event from the past but that is very much Sort of a behavioral whisper a source of information. That helps us deal with. The present helps us understand what we're seeing doing and helps us make plans for the future as well dafna homey and our creative memories next time. One science clear and vivid for more details about clear and vivid to sign up for my newsletter. Please visit alan. Alda dot com and you can also find us on facebook and instagram at clear and vivid and i'm on twitter at alan alda. Thanks for listening bye bye.

national institutes of health alan olga tony voucher robert lefkowitz united states public health se bob yellow bray jesse rothe cottrill yankees zarina vietnam harold varmus phil rizzuto Lefkowitz Septa burris tony falco harvard medical school
Eps 173|Memories and Spiritual Formation; Guest Casey Tygrett

Spark My Muse

52:24 min | 1 year ago

Eps 173|Memories and Spiritual Formation; Guest Casey Tygrett

"Delay. And you're listening to the spark. My News podcast Welcome to spark my muse. Everybody today I have a guest on. Who's done a book called as I recall discovering the place of memories are spiritual life. Casey Tigrett is a pastor spiritual director and the author of this book and a previous book will be talking about a little bit too and the host of the otherwise podcast. Thanks Casey for being my guest today. Marc pleasure thank you for the time. So Y- maybe start off by telling us a little bit about your podcast and then a little bit about your life and work. Yeah the PODCAST I The story of the PODCAST is actually. I think it's a I always want to have a heroic story of the stuff I did like. I was visited by an angelic spirit. Who handed me you know? Tablet had this message on it. But that's not quite happened With the PODCAST. I thought it would be fun to bring people into conversation that I was having with interesting folks so a lot of them were authors because there are people I was hanging out with but More to the point people who had something to share on the idea of wisdom and how deeply entwined wisdom is in the spiritual journey and especially as a as a Christian in the Christian spiritual journey. So I I just started. I just started it and kind of listen to the people that I liked to listen to and took some things from them that I thought would be helpful or that. I thought I would like to hear if I were me and You know over time developed my own personality in that but we really trying to do in. The podcast is elevate. The voices of women The voices this year The recent season has been to elevate the voices of people caller So that there is a broader understanding of what wisdom looks like in a spiritual tradition. So that's the heart of the podcast. I enjoy doing it It's Gosh it's way more work than I thought I thought. Oh you just record it and then you put it out there. And then you learn how to be an editor. And a you know equalize a soundtrack and so Yes so that's been the the heart of the podcast up to point and it's part of a bigger as part of a bigger picture of what I do. My cur- role is I work at a Church. Part time as a theologian in residence. That's my title and as fancy as that sounds really and truthfully my job is just albus. Talk about things. Well and so to articulate what we believe about God and how we believe that interacts with the human condition. And so that's part of my life. The other part is of course the podcast and writing and doing spiritual direction. So I I sort of. I'm an xer an Gen-x that's I fall at the tail end of it. So I'm straddling the line between ex- millennial but I do like the whole millennial idea of like gigging so that's kind of where I've got like a bunch of different things that I do. And that's that's how my how my life lays out so every week is different and isn't any agreement for sometimes that's A. That's a real benefit for people who don't know I haven't done too much. See I had the the thing happened to me where I was introduced to any Graham about eight years before people were talking about it and so came around. I'm like no no I haven't talked about it too much. Do you want to describe what What you mean by any agreement for for any of my listeners. Who are less about that? Yeah I found the program to be a really helpful tool in mainly because after spending some time I did some doctoral research on personality types and things like that and personality tests are great. I mean they're fun for parties. Like what are you are you with the any Graham? It really does point you towards the places where you are liable to fall and struggle And I think is the benefit of it is to show you some of the dark sides and four is kind of the romantic type. They're the person who tends to be creative tends to like to work on new things and struggles with follow through so as soon as I read that I was like. Oh yeah that's that's totally me. And also tends to have a feeling like they're the only one who is experiencing a particular emotional situation. They feel like everything is very unique to them and the other piece. That was really helpful for me. Was the idea that fours tend to go through these seasons of melancholy? And so I have about every six weeks. Just this dip that hits and my wife knows it's coming. She can tell like she knows these little signs that are coming along and she'll say oh you're about to take one of those little dips aren't you and I will This past year it changed a little bit started dealing with depression. A little bit and The dips went from being a day about a week. And so but the peace helped me diagnose that and go. This is just a little belt and it'll pass So it helped me. Distinguish to what is just natural on. What is yeah? This is maybe more like depression at any to process through that and I think that is one of the things. Like a lot of people taking Myers Briggs or desk. I've found disc the least helpful. But that was just me but those can be tools. I think they're good. Us tools but not answers probably and They can't help you. They can be especially helpful understanding and having grace for people who aren't like us I've seen them really weaponized. And then when I look at the end you Graham. I'm like how many wings can you have like? Do I have six wings? I think it's great to to understand like the opposite of what? Your gifts are the the weaknesses. When you're not in a healthy place it will show you the opposites and I think for that. It's pretty valuable because you might not realize what the opposite end of of your personality is and I think any any tool that you. Can you know the goal is to know yourself in any tool that you can hold lightly enough in the service of knowing yourself and any discipline we do is is about that the motivations we have the the longings desires? We have if we have tools that we can hold lightly and use them to know who we are. I think that's a benefit it's when it becomes when the tool becomes the goal were the penultimate thing so if somebody tries to somebody who tries to critique it and you're like no have to defend the Graham why the tools you don't have to defend a hammer hammer is a tool that does job is the same way you can talk about. Its benefits but when you have to defend the tool. It's no longer a tool. It's it's the point. Yeah so I like to say well. I'm I'm just Pisces. Now I'm just teasing but But Yeah it's actually. I was pretty surprised at. I figured that the any Graham would would have some resonance with people. I didn't think it would get to be super like everyone was talking about it. It'd be like the first thing someone would say. Well what are you? I'm this and I did not expect that kind of Buying I guess I was just taken aback as us to. I mean I'm glad people have found it useful but then it almost felt it reached almost a horoscope level like For explaining everything got to that point for some people I could tell. Just you know the shallow. Social media stuff will Explaining every little thing away because of the because the number and then you I guess a formation person. I'm thinking like can't be it. Can it can be a helpful tool to examine something but when it starts to become excuses or that it's kind of reached the end of its useful this but Sometime all have to bite the bullet and have like any expert. Come on so that anybody. Who's wondering like why at least recover that well. I guess there's a little baggage. They're spending halfway there. One of my favorite quotes. When I started reading your book was something you said was spiritual formation is learning to live like Jesus within the skin were in. That's a little bit of a tongue twister by Learning to live like Jesus within the skin were in lets a little tricky to say but I love that sentiment and do you think you could explain that a little bit for people. I've just totally confused. Now that's great and and you know what the funny thing in the back side of this people who have written and published before there's always There's always a spot where you're editor will say to you. I don't do you really want to say this. Is this really what you want to say? And that phrase for me is important. Because is it's very easy for our faith or our journey to get decontextualize so it can be moved out of the real life and become this sort of thoughts or ideas but doesn't have any grounding in reality and so I grew up in a in a Christian tradition. That was very much about this whole heaven when you die. Idea and the goal was that and so as a person who came to faith as a preteen. I was ready to die anytime soon. And so the really fruitful liked tasty juicy delicious parts of Faith. I was like well. I guess I'll just wait on that so there wasn't anything there. And so as I started to take this deeper journey spiritual formation and started to see this invitation from Jesus to be a part of the kingdom now and to become and that people around me debating theology but the biggest thing about it is. You're invited to become something here now. In so formation for me is borrowing a phrase from Dallas Willard. It's learning to do what Jesus would do if he were. I translated down to say it's learning how to become like him in the skin wherein so we all have a life and circumstances and work and sexual hangups and addictions and Depression and chemical issues in brain chemistry issues. We all have these unique things and so the the relevancy of faith is always going to be. How do I become within the context of this stuff that I already am so I will never be formed apart from being a white male who grew up in in a primarily suburban area but in the south and so there's some things that go along with that so part of my formation is going to be becoming like Jesus in dealing with the racism of my past part of it's going to be dealing with the experience of coming from a family that my parents were divorced after nineteen years of marriage? There's always going to be some contextual pieces that shape how we become who were becoming. And so that's that's the heart of that and a lot of my work is a spiritual director is to help people to understand that like you have to do this where you are you are. You are called invited as you are not as you should be because that's how you get to who you should be we. We we start here. We start in the present moment with all of it. It's foibles and invitations and frailties and that's how we get to where we're going. Yeah well now that you brought up spiritual direction. What was your training in spiritual direction? Where did YOU Have it in? What was it like I I became a spiritual director because I saw I saw spiritual director In the midst of a pretty interesting season of ministry back in I think twenty fourteen twenty. Thirteen I was looking for someone with some insight. I didn't at the time feel like I needed therapy or counseling So talking to some friends they mentioned spiritual director. I'd not heard much about that Mostly because evangelical were just are just coming around to it but Megapolis Episcopal 's and You know people like that. Those traditions have always had this hanging around So I started seeing a director and through the course of our relationship. I it dawned on me. Gosh I feel like this is something I'm being invited to do and to give to others and so I took my a the program I did was through. A A group called Christos Center for spiritual formation and they are founded in Minnesota but the spiritual direction program is called tending the holy and there is a campus Chicago near where I live and I did a two year program through them and it was a beautiful thing. It was really intriguing. Though because it was a cohort of about twenty people and There were only two men myself and another and as variety of faith traditions at Presbyterian Baptist From the African Methodist Episcopal. Church the ages. I was by far one of the youngest people so I had a bunch of MOMS. They were all like my spiritual MOMS which was kinda which is kind of cool so it was a wonderful program though. Well what's the biggest difference you notice from pastoral or Ministerial Training The kind you might get it Seminary or something like that compared to spiritual direction. How would you distill that for somebody to put that in my own? It would have to be specific to me because I know that seminaries are all distinct across the board but I think the biggest difference is how you approach answers in the United States. Most of our seminaries and Bible colleges are very much western in their approach and so we are an empirical traditions who were looking for answers to questions information that proves that leads to a verdict of some sort and we allow for mystery so I don't want to paint too broad a brush their space for I don't know but for the most part we're trying to help people answer questions and I think there's a place for that there is also a place for what spiritual direction provides which I feel like is holding space for someone to just process what they're hearing without guiding them to to a particular end point and so as I go into direction relationship the first thing I tell a person is number one that we're going to have a lot of silence and so that may take while it may feel awkward as we're used to having that much silence in between people and then the other thing I say is more than likely we're not going to finish with me saying okay now. Here's three things you need to do before next week. What I'll try to do is point out some things that I notice. I hear you saying this. I noticed this. Maybe pay attention to what what's going on here and and how you've been praying about this particular thing as I'd say that's the biggest differences are approach to answers whereas a lot of my training in seminary was how do we help people answer the critical questions I think direction would be. How do we get people help people to ask the critical questions and then wander into them by the guidance of the Spirit? I really appreciate you. specifying that I I went to seminary to but not to become pastor so some of those pastoral Classes I just didn't take that my took formation direction classes but I think that's a very excellent point and I would also say living into the questions because in regular life you know in in regular life. It's not so simple usually like It's either this or it's this in relationships with people you don't get the Advantage of having these kind of either or situations I mean I think. That's what's so appealing sometimes to to keep things stuck in in our heads in an abstract way because real relationships with people when you're stepping into areas of great pain or anguish or conflict that we have with with other people are with people that were walking alongside is incredibly ambiguous and conflicted and full of contradictions. And it's not like well. Here's the simple answer simply do this and I don't know if you find this. I find that there really isn't a good answer for loneliness other than presence. Yeah Yeah Yeah and it's not like once you have so called presence once you're there with a person. Boom it stunts settled ongoing Healing processes of of a loneliness wound. Or you know a a feeling of Neglect somewhere along the line. That was an early wound that continues to come up and and get ripped open again. I think that's the part that that is maybe so much more needed in our culture now with people don't have time for a really deep spiritual companions and friendships or maybe they do and and I think there's there's goodness in both things having deep spiritual friendships that you can have with people you can trust. That are your friends and also direction with somebody who's hopefully doesn't know every single thing about all your friends and you don't have little bit of a objectivity I find both of them really helpful. Both of those Relationships stuff very helpful. I also find that if I'm suggesting spiritual direction to someone who is in some sort of church work if they're parish ministry or on staff at a church I I usually recommend to them go into a director. Who's outside their tradition? Because there is something about that you know the rabbis talk about turning the gem and you see the different light refracted and that's a way of talking about scripture but I also feel like there's a way of looking at life that's similar and so to have someone who doesn't come with the exact same theological or even you know church structure underpinnings. They can say some things that are really helpful to kind of shatter preconceived notions or stuff that we assume that we just didn't know we assumed exactly yeah especially That was the case for me. My director she's moved since moved but Ignition trained Roman Catholic. Grandma of five Love Children and Grandma of question. Mark How many She had no idea really what protestantism was. Never you know went to a service or anything. So she would ask really interesting questions will well. Is this part of this. And actually sometimes. It was sort of my answers to her questions. Were sort of embarrassing like Well actually you know. That's not part of what we do at all or you know it would be. It would just be really interesting because she would she from ignorance would be asking me great questions. I WOULD HAVE TO CONSIDER A. Why aren't we doing her? You know Why aren't we taking these certain things in consideration but I think the other the other good point about direction? Is that if we need therapy? We're having an issue with Healing or trauma and we need therapy. That's the we should seek that out and I will turn people over to therapists when I think that that's that would be better for them. But therapy really does look at things from a problem standpoint and I think direction it really doesn't look at things in through pathology in the same sorts of ways and that can be really helpful when you know direction is really just life to life is not Looking for Let's make sure like like sickness kind of Approach and so. I wish that you know it. It would be my great great wish that every pastor would have a director they could go to entrust it. I don't think we would have the same sort of problems. With like the scandals in the the hidden sins and secrets that wind up blowing up churches and and ruining lives if we if everybody in pastoral ministry had someone to confide in like a director. Yeah I agree and so many postures. I no have no idea what direction even is so. That's the other. That's the other thing I wish I wish the Spiritual director would replace popularity but who knows maybe early. Lisa were eight years earlier spiritual director as well. It'll be up to us. We'll have to spread the word so On Page Twenty Four. You talk about Memories of music and writing a song. Do you think you can talk about this section in your book a little bit? I love talking about it and I say there's not from a like narcissistic point of view. But I love talking about my book books because when you said that just now it was like one twenty four. Do I remember what I wrote in there so glad you gave me some context. The chapter deals with how our emotions come about and that our memory actually has a really strong role to play in the formation of our emotions Because our brain our brain basically tallies up experiences and we learn how to feel based on what we experience in so you know my daughter whose twelve now but I remember when she was younger. I remember her experiencing things for the first time and trying to navigate that like what is this feeling. I have like. Is it like the first time you have a stomach ache like am I sic? Am I nervous? What is it that I'm feeling right now? And so are memories. Have a huge part to play in that. And so when I when I read the Psalms. I think it's fascinating that Christian and Jewish scriptures include the psalms because they are so messy and emotion Laden and they D- they don't support a sort of read for answers like owner's manual view towards holly taxed Because they're just they're filled with a lot of rage a lot of Sadness grief lament and so part of what we do in the in. The formation journey is to understand why we feel the way that we feel and how that connects with this whole process of becoming Jesus in the skin. We're in because we never are. We are we're never formed. Apart from the context we live in and that includes we'll never be formed apart from the things that we feel about situations and so part most. The freedom that I've experienced in life has come from just permission to feel something and not to critique it and not to not to have to put it down especially things like grief. I've heard well meaning and I'm sure their heart was was so longing for something good to happen from this but people talking to those who have experienced a loss of a loved one saying we don't grieve like those who have no hope echoing Paul statement while I feel like that's a good thing to say the The the implication is we don't grieve. We don't have that sort of wailing sadness and that's not at all the heart of it. The the text isn't we don't grieve period because we have hope it says we grieve the but we also have hope and so. It's this is the human condition where you're constantly holding two things intention. It's the grandmother who struggled with chronic illness and cancer for the last ten years who finally passes and there is a blessing. But there's also this deep deep hurt and loss and grief and so what the psalms do is they give us permission to to celebrate the the tidier emotions. Which are those like? It makes sense that you would be sad that your grandmother has passed whether you feel like. That's a blessing or not but also some of the untidy emotions like the feeling of abandonment. Feeling like God has left has let down the side that he has left his post. He is stopped watching and while he was gone. These wild divine was gone on on it restricted to male pronouns while the divine was off duty having a smoke break or something my life fell apart and so there are those there the psalms that just allow us to go wherever you and so in the in the Chapter. I talk about nine. Hundred Ninety six was a year for me that I learned to feel a lot of things in the course of that year starting from January through may I found out. My parents were getting divorced. I lost a friend to suicide from a high school friend to suicide and I had a pretty severe car accident. And so when I when I have these feelings of things being out of controlled or loss or things that you assume are going to be attornal suddenly shattering. I feel them all. Connect back to that to those three moments in time. And that's part of WHO I am. They make me who I am and they will also be the tools to help. Make me who I'm going to be and so is I work with people and direction a lot of times. There's are these traumas that they can name or they come in and say I I just don't feel like I'm close to God or that. God has abandoned me and my first question to them will be. We'll tell me about a time when you felt like the divine was present if you can remember that emotion that sense now we can give some context to the sense of absence and then writing Assam. The practice at the end of the chapter to write a psalm is to have us. Just take that very serious metaphorical poetic kind of approach to saying. Here's feely right now and I don't have words but I've got some pictures and I've got some I've got some untidy non divine unsanctioned words that I would really like to use for what's happening right now and just giving permission for that to happen. Yeah that's a that's a great point about Something I had to push through. I think bad theology but teaching from my childhood back on the pastor's kid but That didn't spare me too. Many too many things but just the idea that every emotion you have is a is a human one. It's what you're doing. Are you sending with those emotions afterwards? But having them We can't deny our humanity and the psalms doesn't deny Anybody their feelings you. They can the mo the most horrendous feelings like smashing your especially on stones I mean that's that's pretty brutal and we can't like sanitize what The writers of the Psalms were saying they were saying what they actually felt. And it's allowed to be said they were saying them and it was helping them to not actually do what they were feeling. I'm sure that had something to do with it and asking the God You know comfort them in their time of feeling such anguish but I think that I was definitely brought up. Like anchors sinning. That's that is You don't get to feel that one that's that's off limits and I think that just having someone tell you of course you can feel angry. It's whether you're going to hold it in like a poison is that's a different. That's a different question. Yeah absolutely and and what's interesting too is to be able to say that as per. I Love I grew up with music. I remember as a kid like sneaking into my parents stash of vinyl. Not that I had to sneak but I thought I did I was I thought it was covert undercover music thief and would just listen to their music all day long on the record players dating me to all the finals coming back. So maybe it's not maybe it was just that cutting edge already and how much of music is doing the exact same thing that the psalms are. My daughter is a Taylor Swift Fan. And so we've started listening to the reputation album and I thought to myself. Oh my gosh. These are impractical Tori Psalms. These are songs of revenge. Anger Broken nece grief and so much music still does the work of conveying these things that you hear a song and you go that. That's what I wanted to say. That's how I feel. That person just had the ability to capture. It and I think the psalms have the ability to do that for us and and also help us to express our anger so that we don't become angry people you know to be consumed by it to where it becomes the truth about US rather than the truth. Is I get angry and sad and frustrated and I'd like to slap the guy in Cuba across from me at work. It's just part of him but that's not what I'm going to do. Yeah I mean that's really. The function of art is an Theo. Poetics we could say is that there's a place there's a place for all those emotions and that God isn't separated from from those things got his with us. God's presence will this through it I'll take this time to go to page one. Forty six at where you talk about presents. The blessing of presence and there's a quote about abiding That's really powerful by Leslie. New Begin I'll I'll read it You write abiding rights Leslie. New Begin is continually renewed decision that what has been done once and for all by the action of Jesus shall be the basis the starting point the context for all my thinking and deciding and doing and that is a really potent description of what abiding is as. I don't know that we necessarily think of it in those terms Maybe you can speak to that. Yeah I feel like there's so many different directions. This goes plan because we have learned about. I think I feel like I feel like we've learned about the lasting like the the duration of things from the relationships and from the culture that we see around us and so you know when we look at relationships that have failed we there's creates instability and so I see Mary couples who they're living there living in a way that says. I'm just not sure this thing's going to last and in their minds they think this really only effects how I deal with my wife or my spouse but it's actually affecting the way they deal with pretty much everything because there's not a settled nece there. There's not a sense of trust in this thing that When I go away it'll be the same. It's almost like children. Children have this concept of object permanent. So if you show a child a ball and he put it behind your back. The child actually thinks the ball stopped. Existing disappears. I feel like there's this lack of permanence that we have that when we're away from something just not sure that. I'm going to come back in my relationships going to be there. My faith is going to be there and I feel like what abiding does. Is this decision to say. That question really has been settled. The presence question has been settled and I instead of living to create that I live within the reality of that and that gets so up in the clouds and everything but The way I see it is like when I when I leave my house and I if I were to take my wedding band off it. It doesn't change the fact that I'm still married but the wedding band. Rem is a reminder that something is something exists. Something already has happened in. It's finished in its together. And there's a trust and there's an abiding and there's a presence with that and so part of dealing with really difficult things from a Christian perspective is I meet so many people who are trying to deal with it from a perspective of creating something that isn't rather than living within something that already is. That's already been decided. We're we're trying to earn the favor of God to deal with the stuff in the president instead of saying we have here those who've been given the favor of God's some now since that's the case how do we deal with what's in front of us and so that abiding is choosing to know that we have this safe place that's already been built and decided that we can. We can remain in that continual presence of this thing has already been done and writing as a writer. That's really comforting to me. Because some days I sit down and I write something and I read back over again. This is ridiculously bad. This is garbage. Why am I? And it's that you know there's an active self critique there but it doesn't destroy me because I could have a day of writing and it doesn't go quite so well but at the end of it I can say but the biggest questions have really been settled. I'm either is this question of presence and place and safety and care. That's really already been decided. Good friend James Brand Smith. He calls it. He says his two key what he calls the power narratives the first one is. I am one in whom Christ dwells and delights and the second is I live in the unshakable Kingdom of God and those two power narratives like living out of that that if you abide with those things and just let them sync in with a lot of things. That just don't seem to bother us as much a lot of risks you can take as a writer as a podcast or as as a single mom as a housewife. You are a house husband who are just frustrated. That things didn't quite go the way that they did. Or they're frustrated with something else you can dive into the whole human story with those two narratives with that idea of biding. And they're all kinds of things that suddenly aren't as they're still difficult they're still challenging and our own. Inner Journey is still difficult and challenging. But if we go there knowing the bigger questions have really already been settled. So now how do we? How do we deal with this from that perspective? It's a vastly different world? One of the books that kind of helped me with a paradigm shift in that regard was practicing the presence of God by brother Lawrence. Those duck collection of letters. Something happened when I read that night and I thought Oh. I can just practices presence. That's already there. Don't I don't know exactly what. How would shifted inside because it's not really language based I suppose but it was kind of the. Let's let me operate out of this reality that I can. Of course talk to God at any time like brother Lawrence did and just a regular dialogue all day long and I can live. I can be formed and live with the presence of God like you're saying as a given as not something I'm going toward and to to attain some time at some point or from time to time that that is the water swimming it. Your book is full of Pieces that talk about memories and and Shell collecting and we haven't I haven't actually in this conversation we haven't really delved into there's GonNa be lots for people to to discover when they read your book as I recall a but one of the things that I particularly enjoyed us toward the back of the book which you're talking about future memories. Of course maybe the play on words and the paradox of that gets attention But could you talk a little bit about what you're saying when you say Future Memories? Yeah it's one of those moments. I love ever friend WHO's Who's a visual artist? And he says that he would know how to talk about God without metaphors and and poetry and I I love that and so sometimes you have this idea. Roll around in your head and then you finally hit the term for it and you go. Ooh That that's the thing and so I happened to be reading in a story about a neurosurgeon called named Richard Restock. And he talked about when he would bring perspective neurosurgery students into his operating theater and he would show them what the pinnacle of of. Neuro surgery career could look like and show them what they got to do. And all of that and he said what he hoped to do was to create a future memory basically a a a moment that when they got into their residencies or their studies and things just became. This felt like they were impossible. They carried with them. This re this memory but a memory that actually pointed them towards a future that could be. There's very much was a vision casting kind of thing and so in the book ideal with the Book of revelation. Which hilarious to me like I thought to myself. Gosh do you really want to touch this book? I call it the. It's the sexiest book in the Bible. Because everybody wants to talk about it. Nobody wants treated but going into that realizing a lot of times when we're in the middle of real crisis or struggle or just maybe not crisis or struggle where it's like this flashing red light but it's that day to day slog were registering to work through something. The thing we need most is to remember future that we haven't seen yet is to remember there. There were times when things were really difficult and those times have passed and I grew and character and strength. And so if that's the case that can definitely happen again. The circumstances might be different but I have the experience of going through this. Before and so a lot of times in revelation the author is using old images images of Babylon and Babylon fell. I mean Babylon. You can't find it now because it doesn't exist in the same way and saying that to a group of people being oppressed by an overbearing empire saying. Hey guys remember you know. Babylon fell this. This can pass to and so it creates this resilience in them. It's an ability to stand up under really difficult or challenging. Circumstances creates this resilience because it tells them everything is contingent the suffering that you feel is contingent on a time period and it can fall apart and so just trying to create that sense of strength that spiritual emotional psychological strength to know this future. Memory is something that you can embrace and when you embrace it it gives you the it gives you the ability to move through difficult times going. I remember when things used to be bad and they are. They are that way anymore and so it could be the same with this situation as well. There's so many places in the Bible where God urges God's people to remember the works that God has done in and the salvation. That's come so many times God's faithfulness and I think that that's kind of like remember recall but in in a way that brings the past into the present and then the president creates the future in the sense. There's something about the sort of timelessness of of that but also you know how our anxiety can kind of create a poor reality than we have? I think So it's interesting. How well you're playing with time a lot in in your book here but It really has a lot to do with what kind of perspective we're GONNA have. How going to to trust in God well. Do you have anything that we didn't touch on that? You wanted to talk about within the book or any final words. I think the deep is the thing that has been most impactful for me in talking about this book. Just the freedom that comes in knowing that your memories actually matter. There is a strand of teaching in the Christian tradition. I don't know about other other faith traditions. But definitely in a Christian in more. So maybe even an evangelical Christian tradition because there is a sense of send being in the past and so much of the scriptures being interpreted to say your past sins have been forgiven and then the follow onto that is usually so. Let's leave them in the past and to you know popular songs talking about your past doesn't define you and I think the permission giving part of this book is to say your past doesn't define you but it definitely describes you because you you have no story Neuroscientist Eric Kandel says that we would have no personal history. We have no understanding of who we are without our personal history and experiences. We wouldn't know how to have. Joy would know how to process the way we react and so one of the things that if nothing else comes out of this book for people who read it it is very simply that. Gosh. I hope you feel the permission to know that your memories matter that they are not final but they they can be redeemed and they can be brought into the president with Sin Utility and usefulness in in even beauty Even though a lot of times they seem like things that we would just we would much rather forget. And so you know we'd like to talk about forgive and forget but. I don't think that's possible if it's deep enough that we need to forgive. It's probably not going to be something we can forget. But it's not possible but I don't even know that it's healthy and so my hope. Is anybody reads. This just gets the permission Whether it's learning wisdom from their memories were coming. Understand their vocation or how they feel or how they're gonNA move forward into the future or even where they belong Is there a place where I belong in the world in my faith The you know that your memories matter in that they can be used and they can be beautiful beautiful things in the future that leads to to want us. Just one more question of you than there are people who have memories that they feel. They don't like to revisit because they feel ashamed of they would rather bury them or you know things that embarrassed them. Were things that they you know. I was young stupid person or whatever the case may be for processing through those memories and integrating them into their authentic selves their their Under the umbrella of grace and everything. How do you suggest that people begin to look at the memories that bring them the most pain or discomfort? Yeah and I appreciate your distinction there too because there are the ones where they happen to us and there are those that we affected by our own will in decisions and the shame that comes from that is difficult because we're probably still living with the consequences and so their their decisions. I made a stupid kid that have shaped me. But that's really where the journey of wisdom comes in and I think one of the best ways to process. It is to know that we make we can make a stupid decision and experience. The failure of it in the fruit of that can either be shame. Which is the feeling that we'll never live down. What has happened or it can be wisdom. Which tells us it. This time will come around again There's nothing new under the Sun. A situation like this will come again when it does let that. Shame translation translate into wisdom to say. I'm not going to do that again as you live with the long term consequences. This is where I when anyone reading the book I hope they understand and I do say it at the beginning. This is not something you go away with on a weekend and solve all of your problems from your past This is a this is a book meant to be one tool held loosely on longer journey and so sometimes processing through past trauma and shame Needs needs a therapist touch or and spiritual directors touch. Don't be afraid to tap into those resources and so things we've done and we knew we did them. That have caused shame. They do tend to take a while. Although it's it's interesting to see is it easier to. Is it easier to forgive someone else or to forgive yourself at? I think for a lot of people forgiving someone else's actually easier but forgiving ourselves as a big challenge and so engaging with those memories that would really rather not think about is knowing that it's healthy and knowing that even in the midst of all of that we we do have a place that abiding has been promised us and that's why they're doing it in. The context of faith feel like is incredibly incredibly helpful because the forgiveness question is really already been decided. The question now is what do we do with what it is that we're experiencing. Can we gain wisdom from it? Can WE LEARN. How to handle a similar situation differently? The next time it comes around I have grown. I made so many stupid relationship decisions. I think starting at like sixteen until I was twenty four. It's just an epic season of of relational stuff part of that came from the relationships. That influenced how I saw marriage and friendship and so we also have to put our shame in context. How many times do we do things that are stupid? That brings shame but we did them because we had no other idea how to do it. Differently. It's a diving into our memories and saying here's what I did. Where did that come from? And why did I think that that was a good idea that all of a sudden we start to uncover not to say well? It's somebody else's fault but to say well that's where that came from. So what responsibility do I bear now? So those are just a couple things and a Lotta Times. It's really contextual. It's so let's talk about the situation. And that's why a good therapist or a spiritual director is so helpful to say. Let's dive into the weeds. Of Euro life the skinnier in and then we can work our way out from there. We'll where can people find you? My listeners liked to listen to your podcast. Or see what you're up to online so my website is my name. C. A. S. E. Y. T. Y. G. R. E. T. T. DOT COM. Casey Tiger DOT COM The podcast there's a link to it there Or it's on spotify or I tunes. It's called the otherwise podcast and I'm on social media. Facebook twitter instagram not on twitter as much any more from my own mental health. A little bit and those are the primary places in there. Are some other avenues where you can probably Youtube. There's some talks that I've done on. The book were on other topics and subjects so but through my website. You can find most everything you need to find. Those will be available in the show notes and The book is called as I recall discovering the place of memories in our spiritual life and is really a great book I really resonated with a lot of the things here brought a lot of things to mind that I hadn't considered so. Thank you for Your Work Casey. And thank you for sharing some time with us. Glad to it's my pleasure

director Graham editor United States writer president Casey Casey Tigrett Depression Dallas Willard Youtube Minnesota Facebook Myers Briggs Babylon Chicago twitter spotify
Get Curious and Change Unhealthy Habits

Psychologists Off The Clock

1:07:41 hr | 1 year ago

Get Curious and Change Unhealthy Habits

"We can turn toward our Cravings we can turn toward all of our emotions instead of resisting them or running away from them and not only do we learn that they go away on their own but we learn that we can co-exist we can view it these, you know the less we resist them the more we can be okay with any strong emotion, which helps us really be with whatever, you know, whatever part of humanity. We are in that moment. You're listening to dr. Jack Brewer on psychologists off the clock. We are for clinical psychologists here to bring you cutting edge and science-based ideas from psychology to help you flourish and your relationships work and health. I'm dr. Debbie Sorensen practicing a mile high Denver, Colorado. I'm Doctor Diana Hill practicing in Seaside Santa Barbara, California from Coast to Coast AM. I am Chandra boston-based clinical psychologist and assistant professor at Brown University and from Sunny San Diego. I'm dr. Jill starter author of be Mighty and the big book of Acts metaphors. We hope you take what you learn how to build a rich and meaningful life. Thank you for listening to psychologists off the clock. We really value our continuing education here at psychologist off the clock. We know that you value yours, too. That's why we're thrilled to bring you our partnership with Praxis Continuing Education and Training practice aspires to set a new standard in evidence-based professional development for behavioral health profession wage. They offer both live on online workshops conducted by top-class peer-reviewed trainers and contemporary behavioral therapies, including acceptance and commitment therapy or act compassion focused therapy radically open dialectical behavior therapy and others practices, the premier act training facilitator in the nation with reoccurring workshops from aft co-founder Steve Hayes and Kelly Wilson as well as a number of other leaders in the ACT Community. If you're interested in opening your clinical skills check-out process through our website off the clock site.com and then you'll find a $25 off coupon code to get started on your next training today. And we'd also like to invite you to a virtual book club with our co-hosts Jill Stoddard about her book be Mighty that's happening in October. And if you go to our website and link to it through our sponsors page, you can get a 15% discount at checkout. If you enjoy the podcast, please consider making a values-based donation on patreon, even a small contribution helps us with some of our expenses you could think of it as taking a co-host out for how long Of coffee and you can link to patreon on our website or just search for us on patreon.com. Hi, this is Diana here and I'm excited to share an interview with Judd Brewer who wrote the book The craving mind from cigarettes to smartphones to love why we get hooked and how we can break bad habits and have Debbie here who's going to spill the beans on some of her bad habits because Jim Breuer gives us a lot of tips and tools of how to do it differently, but maybe you could start Debbie. What's what's a bad habit. You've been stuck in recently. Well, first of all don't we all have a few right? I think the question is like which one should I talk about? Cuz I think you know, it's like we get in these automatic things and they're not always not always bad, but they're not always helpful, right? So I think when I was just paying attention to lately, I love to you know, at the end of the day cook dinner and pour a glass of wine, you know, white wine and the summer red wine in the winter. It just helps me relax and cook and I enjoy it but I think that there are times when it does become a habit right so I might dead Have a reason not to drink a glass of wine like a just so I'm not drinking all the time automatically, but then also because you know, I might have some work. I want to get done later or something like that. So I want to kind of stay clear-headed but there's a lot of times when I start chopping an onion and I just want to automatically, you know reach for a wine glass. And so that's definitely one where it can become a bad habit. Not a bad habit can become a habit. How about you Diana? Yes, so Debbie and I were just chatting and I said, there's so many that I can't share on the air and she said share one that you're sharing that you wouldn't share them. Give us a juicy something Tuesday. Yeah a lot have been brewing up in the pandemic more than more than usual. But I think for me what I've been noticing more and more is just a lot of checking of my phone sort of assessment phone checking at unhelpful times as as you're talking about checking your phone is is not that but it's when I'm doing it when I'm with my kids or we're in the car and about to go somewhere else. And what I find is that the results so habits occur in this sequence of there's a trigger there's a behavior and then there's the results and the results of me doing that are actually quite unhelpful in the long term because I end up either forgetting that I've checked that email and then not replying to someone or respond in the moment in this haphazard sort of jumbled way. That would not be as effective as I'm actually sat down and checked all my email at once not that you've ever received any favorite one or two one or two jumbled emails emails on the go emails on the go. There's been a lot written on this page turn basic behavioral principles of trigger Behavior reward Charles duhigg who wrote about the power of habits James Clear wrote a great book called Atomic habits. That's really accessible met Breuer is really helpful is bringing curiosity to this habit Loop process. I've gotten more interested recently in my own life and in my practice looking at how to change that habit Loop once you've gotten aware of it off. Two more of a values-based one and when you insert a values-based behavior to the behavior part of the Habit Loop, you end up getting an intrinsically positive reward. It's actually feels really good to act on your values and it can totally shape the course of your habit. So creating a new Loop a values-based one can be quite helpful and I've actually written about that and created a hand out for you all. If you go to doctor Diana Hill, you'll be able to find writing exercise where you can shift your habit Loop into a values-based one thing that's really important. You know, we were talking earlier about or habits bad necessarily or not and just this very morning. I had a client who was talking about a habit and said to me is that normal and I would respond by saying it doesn't matter if it's normal or not. What's normal first of all, but also the question isn't is this normal? I think the question is is this working out in your home. For not and that's where values comes in. And so I think that's the question right is house. It's working out in your life. Is this bringing you closer to the life you want and I think sometimes even a habit that's maybe new truck or a little bit on the side of taking us away from our values might not be that big of a deal but we can get into a real shame spiral around it a second habit Loop, right because judging our habits can lead to that feeling of guilt and shame as opposed to what you're talking about. Just looking at our habits for what they are. Most of the cycle of the Habit is unconscious. You're not really making the decision. I don't really realize that until halfway through and to be able to make the the wise decision in the moment is what matters I know for me that the second habit Loop of guilt is in going into rumination. It's really problematic and causes a lot more suffering than the initial habit that I was engaging in in the first place. If I go into guilt I missed the big picture of actually how to help myself out for the next job. And not engage in that behavior, whatever your habits happen to be and however, they're showing up in your life. I think there's a lot to be learned from this episode with Judd Brewer. We also encourage you to check out his apps. He has three apps that are really helpful in shifting. Your habits one is for anxiety. And other one is for cigarette use and the third is for eating and he's an affiliate with psychologists off the clock. So he's offering our listeners 20% off his programs go to our sponsorship page to get the off the clock coupon code to get that 20% discount to check it out. Hope you liked this episode and I you know, what you think write a review Dr. Brewer is the director of research and Innovation at the mindfulness Center and associate professor in Psychiatry at the school of medicine at Brown University as well as the executive medical director of Behavioral Health at Sharecare, and he's also a research affiliate at MIT as an addiction psychiatrist and internationally known expert in mindfulness training for addictions. Dr. Brewer has developed a suggested novel mindfulness programs for habit change, including both in person and app-based treatments for smoking emotional eating and anxiety. We're going to talk about some of those today like the eat right now, unwinding a society and craving to quit programs so welcome. Dr. Brewer to the show. It's a real Delight to have you on I've been reading about you and listening to your voice read me a book over the last couple of weeks and it's a real treat because you do such a beautiful job of integrating contemplative practice with Neuroscience. So, thank you. Thanks for having fog. Really excited to have this conversation might be helpful for us just to land in the here-and-now and I was listening to an interview. I think it was back in April and you were talking about just boss G's to get through this crisis and how to ground ourselves and now here we are starting out in fall and we're in a really different place even than we were back in April. This is turned from crack management to chronic anxiety and stress you taking unique perspective on that and how we can address anxiety and stress. Can you talk a little bit about that? I'd be happy to and I think he comes from a combination probably of my addictions like Hydra practice in my own personal mindfulness practice, which is been really informative and also suck the Neuroscience where that my lab does so I guess starting with the latter. You know, it's been it's been really interesting to look at the actual mechanisms that form habits. And I think that in particular got really fascinating around how long he can be perpetuated as a habit. When way I think about this, you know from the scientific standpoint is that we've we've got the survival brain that's there to help us survive right and wrong. It actually learns in a very simple way through reinforcement learning, you know, and only has three core elements and Trigger behavior and a reward. So if you think about it from a pragmatic standpoint, you know with our ancient ancestors back on the Savannah where you know their foraging for food and trying to remember where food is so you find a food source. That's the trigger the behavior is you eat the food and then the reward from a neuroscientist and point is that your stomach sense that dopamine signal to your brain that says remember what you ate and where you found it. So that was actually set up to help us survive. This is old survival brain yet in modern-day, you know dead. Most of us have refrigerators. So so we don't need to remember, you know, we we know where the kitchen is yet. These mechanisms are still in play on top of this has you know more recently has evolved this neocortex. Literally the new brain which is there to help us think and plan and that combination of the two is not necessarily helping us out right now wage, you know, especially in in this age of you know, really chronic anxiety and I think it actually points to the core mechanisms of why anxiety is actually increasing right now because this thing you're planning brain actually needs information. So the way it works in a nutshell is that it takes previous scenarios and it takes previous Behavior, right? And it says, okay what happened back then and then it simulates the future based on what we've done in the past, right? So this is where you know that saying what's the best predictor of future Behavior past Behavior off? So so that's how our thinking and planning brains work. The problem is that there's a huge amount of uncertainty right now, right? So if you think of it at the beginning of the pandemic often know how contagious or dangerous this this virus was so everybody was taking all these precautions, you know, like not touching mail Rings Campbell cuz they didn't know, you know, if this virus could last time we were just didn't know a lot of uncertainty there a lot of anxiety there a lot of fear that was you know, that was justified cuz fears actually would helps us survive we learned. Oh that's dangerous. Don't go there yet. The uncertainty has persisted but it's just shifted in terms of you know, when they're going to be a vaccine. How long is this thing going to last can you know are my kids safe to go back to school all this stuff and that that certainly doesn't look like it's going away anytime soon. Even though we're starting to learn how to manage, you know, the the severe cases for example steroids are showing to be you know, very helpful birth. Event for reducing mortality things like that. So we're getting mortality rates down in the hospitals yet for the majority of the population. That's not sick. There's all this uncertainty so you can think of it this way fear, you know old survival brain helps us learn, you know, like avoid danger but fear plus uncertainty leads to anxiety and we don't see that ending any time soon. I you know, I heard a talk by Joseph Ledoux who actually talks a lot about how this goes back to leaving just a protozoa, you know, avoids toxins and moves towards nutrients, but we have this unique each thing about how humans which is our capacity as you said to simulate. So, yes, we have the immediate response if I got to keep my family safe, but then we can simulate the conversation. I'm having with my kids yesterday. We were at the beach. When are we going to go to the beach and not have a police car there and everyone's masks on and have it be such an effort to just go do this thing. That was a daily activity log. Stress reliever so even the things that we would be turning to to relieve stress or help us where things iety aren't working in the same way that they used to. Yeah. Another way to just add to what you're saying is, you know are thinking and planning brains don't stop right and so they go into these what if scenarios, you know, like what if this what if that what if this what if that and there's there's a fair amount of research dating back to the nineteen eighty s t d berkovec at Penn State actually showed that anxiety can get perpetuated in these same, you know, negative or reinforced habit patterns the same way that single cell organisms avoid danger the way he pointed this out. Was that a negative emotion. Let's say fear that's the trigger triggers a mental behavior of worry. A lot of people don't think of behaviors being mental, but in fact, we can have plenty of mental behavior and that worried even though it's not actually doing anything. It feels like it's doing something because wage Like we're in control we're worrying, you know, at least I'm worrying about this even if my worrying isn't going to help it the problem is that that worried feeds back and then perpetuates cycle of anxiety cycles of anxiety. So we just start spinning, you know, more and more and more and tightened down in these tiny little balls of anxiety. So worried has this sort of subtle reinforcement quality to it that you're talking about that trigger Behavior reward. There's the sort of false reinforcement to worry, but it doesn't it doesn't work. It actually doesn't solve worrying doesn't solve any problems. There's this other component that I want to dive into a bit which is the self-referential nature of all of it and some of the the brain areas that are involved in anxiety that also get involved in that sense of me as opposed to the sense of we can you talk a little bit about that. I'd be happy to my lab serendipitously fell onto some of these brain networks through studying experienced meditators. So I was Curious George You know, this was about ten years ago now was curious how experienced meditators brain brain activity was different than novices or people that hadn't meditated. So we did a study where we compared brain activity of an illness vs. Experienced meditators, and we found you know, the the short summary of it is that there's this network of brain regions called the default one network and it's called wage up my network because it's what we default to and we're not doing anything in particular and what we tend to do when we're not doing anything in particular is think about ourselves, you know, like we regret things they've done in the past. We worry about things in the future. So in particular Cravings, you know, all sorts of drug Cravings chocolate Cravings gambling Cravings those activate this device off on network and ruminations. So with depression when we're ruminating about things, you know that we've done in the past that also activates this network when we are perseverating which is Simply just rumination about the future, you know, when we're worrying that also activates this network and lo and behold we found that experienced meditators are deactivating this network box. And when we when we had that first study published we were you know, we weren't quite sure if that was accurate or not. So we followed it up first. We did a replication study with a larger sample and in a replicated it off but we also started using this technique called real-time neurofeedback where we could show people feedback from their own brains in real time. And that's really the only way to bridge this gap between jobs described as subjective or first-person science and third-person subjective science. So we we needed to line up people's direct subjective experience with their brain activity and in in several studies that we published found that those two lined up pretty nicely. We even had interesting Cooper from sixty minutes come in and try it out on camera. So anybody that's interested they can just Google, you know, Anderson Cooper, I think meditation song Minutes, you know Brew or something like that and they can see, you know, we we asked him to think of a time when he was anxious his posterior cingulate cortex. That's Hub of the default mode Network shot off. It literally went off the chart above what we could record and you can see that on the on the screen and then we asked him to meditate so he'd been practicing meditation for about a month at that point and he was just paying attention to Iraq and you can watch that brain activity just drop significantly. So it seems that these self-referential brain networks are activated, you know, when we're caught up in things when we get caught up in anxiety when you get caught up in in a craving but they also deactivate when we when we practice mindfulness and meditation and one of the things that we got even you know wage doesn't even more specifically was what is it about the meditation or the mindfulness that is decreasing this brain activity. So we did a bunch of you know, bunch of experiments and looked at subjective experience wage. Found that it was literally this feeling of of getting caught up where people are, you know, when they're working hard, you know, when they're trying to meditate, you know, they're getting caught up in that that effort that wage activating the posterior cingulate cortex when they were caught up in distraction. It was activating it just like other studies had found and when they were letting go when they were simply resting and awareness or getting crazy about their experience. That's when the posterior cingulate cortex activity decreased. So it was really interesting and this actually informed a lot of the work that we're doing now, which was you know to really zoom in on this this experience of getting caught up, right? And in fact, you know, we get caught up in anxiety people know what it feels like when they're caught up in that anxiety. It feels like this contract did close down quality of experience and when they let go, you know, simply by bringing curiosity to that moment that helps them kind of unwind a little bit let go home. Not that experienced starts to expand a little bit so we can even simplify this and pragmatically, you know, help people start to pay attention to their own direct experience without these very expensive tools home by noticing that that closed down quality of experience versus the opened up quality of experience. Does that make sense? Yeah. I loved it use the word curiosity because in an acceptance and commitment therapy practitioner and when you get trained up and act you get trained one of the things that Stephen Hayes says is that instead of using the word acceptance with folks home use the word curiosity and you'll get a lot further because when you say something like well, maybe we should accept you know, how the pandemic is impacting you right now people are like except I'm unwilling to accept but if you just curious about the possibility that there's some outgrowths of what's Happening. There's some changes that maybe could be beneficial it totally changes our relationship and and as you described we moved from narrowed down, Behavior and attention to more expansive behavior and attention and that is key to get people moving and more flexible in their lives. I totally agree with you know, maybe I should except I think you know, it's it's a great example of how we add, you know, you probably heard this term we should all over ourselves. Yeah. So, you know if he says, oh maybe you should accept this then we think of oh, that's one more thing that I can fail at and then we get more contracted as compared to. Oh, let's explore this or play with or you know, get curious about what that what that feels like and in fact, you know curiosity well, so let's geek out a little bit if you don't mind but you know, if I had to pick one word and lose every other word in my vocabulary, that one word would be curiosity, you know, it's a perfect Mantra and if you look at it, there are actually two types of curiosity thing. Also inform experience as well. You're probably familiar with this but in case others aren't there's this guy Litman who back in 2005 published a paper describing what's called as deprivation and interest curiosity and with deprivation curiosity it it tracks perfectly with this idea of real web-based learning right operant conditioning where if there's you know, we don't know the answer to something then that that triggers an urge to go look it up. Right and this is where are our Weapons of Mass distraction. Our phones are terrible at math actually perpetuating these Cycles because we go look it up and then we get that reward how no matter how superficial are meaningless it is. We're like, oh, you know that was that movie star I couldn't think of that person's name, right? But that's that package. You know, I think of this deprivation is destination right once we get somewhere once we get that answer where we feel better, but it actually perpetuates the cycle of doing that again. On the contrary or contrasting to that is interest curiosity. So we're deprivation is destination oriented interest Curiosities about the journey. And so this is where we can get rid of interested or curious about whatever's happening in our experience. And this is particularly relevant for things like cravings for food or getting caught up in worry have it Loops where we can encourage people to get interested in curious about what those Sensations feel like in their bodies and they can see you know, oh these are these are Sensations that are urging me to do this thing as compared to some moral imperative. I remember a patient coming into my office once where he's like junk, you know, if I don't smoke I feel like my head's going to explode and so we just kind of mapped it out actually on my wife board, you know had him describe what his experience was get curious about what his direct, you know physical Sensations were and how strong they were and so they the intensity increased and eventually it peaked and then it went dead. Down and he had this wide-eyed. Look. He's like, oh and I said, well, what do you usually do at the top of that Pinkie? So usually smoke but obviously he didn't smoke I was at the VA Hospital the time so we were on a smoke-free campus, right? He couldn't smoke in my office. So he realized oh, these are physical Sensations that I can get curious about and if I don't act on them, they go away on their own. So you realize that these are these are impermanent. These are you know, these are not, you know things that I have to be personally attached to which then links that even back to basic Buddhist Concepts when they talk about impermanence they talk about taking things personally and things like that and then curiosity can help reveal all of that simply by becoming curious about what's happening right now. I think curiosity can help us stay with it to boot up. There is a component of curiosity that's very much about the here and now as opposed to that pre-decided what's going to happen next. So the, you know, the concept of beginner's mind of entering into the experience of The Beginner's mind off. Interesting because I was thinking about my brother-in-law to be is a Segway designer. So he works with this robot. He works on the brains of the robot and what he says is that when athletes get onto the stage and they try and make it balance and because they try and force it the robot supposed to balance for you, but they can't let go of the fact that they have to actually let go in order for the robot to be balanced. But when children get on Thursday are so used to letting go that you just tell the child let go in the robot will do it for you and they can step on and zoom off the go. So the better the athlete the worst they do and I think as we become more experts in our lives are better at controlling things the actually worse off we are when facing uncertainty because there's so much that we can't control and that's we're really your offerings and mind training wage come in as an opportunity of what do we do? And we can't we can't control what's going to happen next. Absolutely. Well, what a great example of that where it's you know, the irony we're we're the more we force things the moral we're likely to bang our head against the wall at the case for many of our experiences. I was actually I was fascinated by the smoking study that where you talked about how Cravings actually didn't decrease over the course of four weeks of your truck. But that people's relationship with the craving changed and how different that is than trying to impose something like a gold standard CBT where we expect the symptom. We want the creating to decrease off the thoughts to change and sometimes that is not the case, but our behaviors can change even in the face of our our emotions still being high, right, right and the highlights one of these other, you know, these little sayings around, you know, what we resist persists and so when my patients resist a craving whether it's for food or for a job You're at that that craving actually persists and it pushes back on them. Yeah, it's if they can just learn to change their relationship to the craving and get curious. This is like Aikido are you use the energy of the craving itself instead of trying to push against it you use it to work with it, you know and so we can turn toward or Cravings. We can turn toward all of our emotions instead of resisting them or running away from them and not only do we learn that they go away on their own but we learn that we can co-exist we can be with these, you know, the less wage resist them the more we can be okay with any strong emotions which helps us really be with whatever, you know, whatever part of humanity we are in that moment, you know, there's this page this great simple equation that there's a meditation teacher shinzen young taught me which is suffering equals pain times resistance. So if you think of that suffering the pain can be anything it can be emotional pain. It can be physical pain the more you resist that pain, right? So let's say it's a craving the more we move that craving the more our sufferings going to go up. But the more we let go and get curious about that craving. Then we're that resistance goes down. The craving is still there yet. The suffering is not there and so we can learn to be with that craving and that's what our study showed was, you know at four weeks. The Cravings were just as strong people learned to be with them not resist them so that they could actually cut down on their smoking and this is where we got five times to quit rates of gold standard treatment, right? So it was really working when we looked pretty months later. In fact that craving had died down on its own and the way I thought about this is the analogy of a fire right if craving is that fire and cigarettes are that fuel for the fire. If you stop adding fuel the fires not going to magically just go out in that moment. It's going to die down. Overtime and the less fuel you add to it the more quickly it dies off and the expectation for us to think our way out of a craving when we're experiencing one if I mean, I think I know everyone has experienced some degree of craving or wanting or feeling overwhelmed the expectation that we're going to think our way out of that and that moment is setting us up for failure right off and it's interesting cuz I were in fire country here in in Santa Barbara and one of the things that we made as part of our fire plan in our house cuz we've had to evacuate many times is that there's three things that we do if a fire happens, we grabbed the backpack this under our bed that's pretty packed and we grabbed our dirty laundry then and then we we grab any of my my grandmother's paintings, right? And so the dirty laundry. Ben was a technique that someone told me because they said you're not going to have the the wits to figure out what you're going to want to wear. But if you but if you take off, If worn for the week, you're probably going to be good, right? And so to prepare for my for basically my prefrontal cortex to go offline when there's I have to evacuate is a good thing. How do we do that with something? Like we're overwhelmed by stress or anxiety. We're having a panic moment. We're about to yell at her kids, right? These are all examples of our our stress systems overtaking our pre-frontal cortex. Yeah. So here it comes back to understanding how our minds work, right? And so if we know that the prefrontal cortex is the youngest and weakest part of the brain from an evolutionary perspective. This is why you know cognitive therapies may not work as well as we all wish that they did, you know, we can't we can't think our way out of a craving for example. Yeah, if think our way of life things iety we know this that because our pre-frontal cortex is the first part of the brain that goes offline when we're stressed or when we're anxious right? There's this this a halt, you know, hungry angry dog Only tired that's when our pre-frontal cortex are thinking part of the brain goes offline. So this is you know analogous to the fire emergency right when that holds acronym comes up or when we're anxious. That's when our pre-frontal cortex is not working and we're going to go back to our old survival brain. So the question is how do we put out that fire? So to speak and the way to do that is to help ground us in our direct experience what's happening right now instead of getting caught up in warri or having our minds spiral out of control. So one, you know a couple things that I I teach people to do whether it's through our own when the anxiety a poor true even in my clinic is to help the you know, we've got a couple of things that we can ground ourselves in our direct experience right now, and one of my favorites is through our feet, you know our feet tend to be an anxiety free zone. So I think of that as the, you know, the fire ring around, you know, it's less we're less log Lead to have anxiety in our feet just like if you you know have a fire zone that where you protected the from jumping or whatever then you're not going to have a fire there. And so I have people just simply curious goes back to curiosity get curious about what their feet feel like in in this moment, you know, it's like they could even wiggle their toes. You know, what what does it feel like when I wiggle my toes and stop wiggling them what's just like with the pressure of my feet on the floor or in my socks and shoes if we're you know or whatever and we can just ground ourselves in the immediate experience in the present moment with what's happening right now. Oh, what a my feet feel like and we can even up that by asking okay, which foot is warmer than the other foot right now. Whispered is warmer than the other foot. It doesn't matter what the answer is but that actually Taps into our natural capacity to be curious right in this moment. So that's one practice that page can do another is and this is a great one that we can teach to our kids. I put out a short YouTube video on this if folks want this Neuroscience behind it won't get into it right now, but just took five finger breathing, whereas somebody breathes in they can trace up the outside of their pinky as they breathe out. They can trace down the inside and so on they can trace their hand as they take five breaths. They can do trace it back to the thumb to pinky to do 10 breasts and that's a great way to help ground ourselves. Not only in breathing cuz sometimes it can be hard to ground yourself in your breath. But we're also doing this in a multi-sensory away. So we're seeing our hands were feeling two different fingers and we're feeling our breath of the same time and what that does is it basically takes up all of birth. Working memory think of it as the brains, you know Ram the random access memory if you use all that space up, then those worried thoughts don't have space to be in there. So after you drive or ten breasts, even if those were the thoughts come back on your physiology has calmed down and so the thoughts come back and you're and there's a mismatch emotionally, right? There's less emotional charge to those thoughts and then we can say oh those are you know, those are just worried thoughts and we're less likely to get caught up in them again. So those are two practices that are very pragmatic and we can teach, you know, the five finger breathing's great to teach your kids and then you know bedtime you do, you know ten breasts together or something like that. You can do it at mealtimes Etc et cetera. And a great thing to do is teach our kids to be our emergency go to so like if we're all freaked out we can say hey if I look freaked out why don't you say, you know, hey mom or dad. Why don't you do five finger breathing with me and then they can lead us through it. So they feel like dead. They're in control. I love the feet and there's so much in ancient practices about about feet and routing even sitting and routing and a lot of the yogic practices when I teach yoga and I never went off each tree pose. We always start with growing Roots. So imagining that your feet are growing Roots down to an anchoring themselves in the center of the earth and just like trees have those deep roots that then you can be flexible and move around. If your feet are rooted it helps with ability to respond to adapt to the university around us fascinated that Johan Heimer Stanford center for altruism and compassion teaches growing Roots as part of the compassion exercises that he's using in schools or with all the populations they work with there. So I love finding a place where you feel safe or bringing curiosity to it. There's this other component that I was appreciative that you write about and that I think is missed a lot as mindfulness has brought. Then into the West so mindfulness just one aspect of sort of the Eightfold Path. There's seven other aspects of the Eightfold Path in Buddhism and you talk a lot about actually generosity and kindness and those is actually being a new reward pathway. So not only breaking up the road pathway that we're in but how can we shift to a different reward pathway? That maybe is more linked to our values wage? Yeah. I'm so glad you asked that question because this actually gets back to some of the core neuro scientific principles about how we learn. I think of this as kind of a three-step process so in this is why I teach some of my patients is, you know, they've first they have to map out their habits, right? So we have to become aware of what's the trigger. What's the behavior? What's the result but then step two. I have them ask themselves the question which is what do I get them this okay. So from a Buddhist perspective than a question gets at the cause and effect relationship. They talk about cause and effect being really critical for basically everything right? So what's the result of our behavior and thoughts the what do I get from? This helps zoom in on? Okay. What's the behavior that I just did and what's the effect of that from a neuroscientific standpoint? There's a part of the brain called the orbitofrontal cortex, which actually determines and storage reward value of you know, different behaviors. So it sets up this whole hierarchy of goodness think of it that way. So what would be a simple example broccoli? Okay. So if we eat broccoli song And our brains going to lay down certain reward value based on calories and what not. Then we eat some milk chocolate, right? And so from a corex standpoint milk chocolate has is more calorically dense and it's sweeter. Right? So from a survival standpoint our brains going to say oh chocolate higher than broccoli in the reward hierarchy, right? That's why we feed our we don't feed our kids deserve and at the same time as dinner cuz they're going to they're going to go for the they're going to go for the desert anytime. So another, you know, just added to that for me if I eat some chocolate vs. Dark chocolate dark chocolate definitely, right? So for me, I'm never going to slum it into the sixties, right? It's got to be at least seventy percent. Yeah, but there's a point where you get to high office when you lose that that sweet spot. It's like between seventy eighty eighty-five that is Cecil a little bit of cayenne and you can either new on to the point, but our brain is over to frontal cortex is setting up this home. Reward hierarchy and so it's going to say when given a choice. Okay, if I get a choice between milk chocolate and you know 85% dark chocolate, it's made by a certain brand my brains going to pick that 85% every time so the way we can actually capitalize on that is is by bringing awareness in again. So an example, let's go back to our smoking study. But this wage also repeating and Cetera when we did our first smoking study when we randomized people to get mindfulness training we did they didn't know they were going to get mindfulness training and in the first night that the group that got random thoughts and wellness training. We said go ahead and smoke and they looked at us like I thought this was a smoking cessation study which had no no pay attention as you smoke and see what happens and people started realizing I remember one woman, you know, she wrote down, you know mindful smoking. So she was doing this mindful smoking exercise smells like stinky cheese and taste like chemicals yuck. So what time? What she was pointing out there was that when she paid attention the reward value of the cigarette was not nearly as great as she remembered right? So that reward value actually drop off and there's a whole bunch of you know, math behind this there's a scarlet and Wagner with these two scientists and the 70s describe this whole reward value curve and we can actually study this. My lab is studied this now gained we have people mindfully eat or mindfully smoke within 10 to 15 times of people using you know, these these this tool we have built it right into the app. We could actually measure a drop in the reward value where their behavior will shift from overeating or eating junk food to not eating those things or not overheating and it will also shift from smoking to not smoking what we see is that you know, mathematically we can model out that change in reward value. So that orbitofrontal cortex is kind of updating the reward value. So what what's up dating is dead. How much lower the old behavior is so let's go to your your pointing out things like kindness and curiosity. Once we start to see that these old behaviors aren't as rewarding as opens up a space to bring you new behaviors. And so we can then ask our brain ask ourselves pay attention. Well, what's it feel like when I'm kind of somebody so let's compare kindness to meanest right? So there might be some self-righteous quality at the you know, when you know, we yell at somebody for some reason but if we really pay attention to get the results of that behavior we can start to see. Oh, I don't feel good. You know, it didn't improve my relationship with that person. Whoever who, you know, etcetera etcetera etcetera and we we see how this can be really problematic on social media because we don't actually see the negative effects often when we're just, you know, having some Twitter fight with somebody cuz we're like you and then we never see the person again. You don't have faith. I told that person and you feel we feel self-righteous about it. But if we look at that, there's this underlying quality of restlessness and actually have contraction. So my lab is actually studied them optional States and we found that uniformly across the board people report that anger actually feels contracted right? It's it's a driven contracted Restless quality to it when you compare that way to kindness and we've actually directly compared the two kindness not only feels open but it feels more rewarding to people and it may be as simple as looking at those clothes versus open States those clubs States actually feel less rewarding than the open States and those open States tend to be curiosity kindness Joy connection, you know, all these things that are actually knew about helping us coexist in a more harmonious way, but also in a way that's going to be more sustainable down the road, right? We all set at somebody we have to worry about if that person's going to come back and yep. Something to us if we're kind of somebody what do we worry about that? They might come back and do something kind to us, you know great problem to have I really appreciate how there's an overlap between your work and compassion focused therapy and Paul Gilbert's work in terms of how he Maps out these three emotions systems the systems of threat and drives which have that narrowing of attention and behavior and then the compassion soothing system that when we are mindful when we're in present and when we're interconnected and feel compassionate towards other faith in openness and expansiveness, and he often talks about the the man on the porch with his guns who is seeking safety, but does not feel safe right does not accept the open because he's alert ready to shoot anyone that's coming his way versus a man on the porch with his dog. Right? And that's a different that's a different state to be in and how we can use both mindfulness of the process moment in combination with compassion as well as sort of this more bigger picture perspective of interconnectedness of not seeing ourselves as separate units. But rather that we are all interdependent and man are we learning that right now more than ever what's happening in the brain there when we get into that state we'd published a paper about five years ago Thursday on loving kindness and particular. So for those that aren't familiar with that loving kindness is a is a meditation practice of basically just opening our hearts, you know in their ways to formally help people systematically do this through phrases such as you know, these are supportive phrases that help people open such as you know, may you be happy and may you be healthy may be safe from harm things like that and we can even direct those toward ourselves when we need that self kindness as well and what we found was that in contrast to well. Let's just say what we found was that the default mode Network would get activated again when we're when we're worried right when we're you know, God. And we're getting worried that might we might not be saved. For example, or in fact this the development Network gets activated with certain types of romantic love when somebody is very obsessed with their romantic partner. This is a study that was published. I think in 2011. I wrote about in my book where this group had found that people who are in long-term relationships, you know, they there was this passionate love scale and there's a subscale of obsessiveness and the more obsessed somebody was with their partner the more their posterior cingulate was activated because when you're obsessed, is it a real value that relationship or your partner or is it about you? Right? Oh, I am obsessed and that quality of you know contracted. I want, you know, I'm obsessed with my partner. It correlates with his brain activation patterns what we found with lovingkindness, perhaps not surprising at this point is that those same brain regions get really quiet because we're not worried about ourselves dead. And in fact, the joy that comes with being with kindness is just so much sweeter than you know than trying to hold onto the love or hold onto the relationship but it's it's much more rewarding in itself. So we're not only seeing brain activation patterns getting quieter with loving kindness, but people are reporting that I love and kindness just feels more open, you know, I'll give a personal example when I was in residency training, I would ride my bicycle to the hospital cuz I lived a couple of miles away and this is a New Haven Connecticut and sometimes the cars were not as excited about me being on the road as I was and so I you know, maybe get honked at or this or that and you know, sometimes you get here grumpy or whatever. I would give them a universal sign of displeasure or you know, just something that was that was provoked provocative that wasn't that helpful and I give to the hospital and I'd be all over you know in in a home. And I was thinking well, this is not a great way to go and see patients, you know, not good mind state for this. So I started practicing loving-kindness where we never somebody haunted me. I would use that as a mindfulness Bell to offer them a phrase of loving kindness and then I would offer one to myself as well. You know one for you one for me and I'll get to the hospital and feel like people like, wow, what are you on? You know, you're you're you're really good place and then I realized I don't have to wait for wage to honk at me to practice loving-kindness is like any car that went by I would just offer, you know, friends of loving-kindness and what that what I found was that it was so much more rewarding but you know for me to not be provoking cars and also, you know just for me personally just felt so much better that that I you know, it's like wow, how can I tap into this all the time and and it became much easier to be opening to this kind it's not only toward others but also for myself cuz I realize the beating myself up really wage. That helpful. It didn't feel good. I got in a tourist place. And in fact, you know, whatever. It was. I I wasn't open to learning from whatever that situation was, which also you know, you can think of is is Carol dweck's growth mindset, you know, when we're in fixed mindset when we're all closed down those are moments when we're judging ourselves or beating ourselves up. We can't actually learn from the situation. But if I do something like if I make a quote-unquote mistake and I'm like, oh I made a mistake and I'm open to that. I'm actually in growth mindset so I can learn from it. Yeah, you know, it's sort of this interesting thing that there's an addictive quality to self-righteous rumination. And when I was reading that in your book, I was getting it this this feeling of like scratching poison oak, it feels so good, but then it's spreads all over your body and that I think is seems to be exacerbated right now at the time when there's a lot of political division we could just bump into anyone and get on our diatribe about how this is bad. This is bad. This is bad and it feels dog. A good 15s, but then afterwards we feel worse as well as the way in which we're using our technology and I'd like to talk a bit more about the way in which we're using our technology that is unhelpful. And I don't want to be to say we shouldn't be using technology but ways in which you've designed technology actually to be helpful for us that the very same material we can use and helpful or unhelpful wage. It's yeah, I'd be happy to talk about that night great, you know, I challenge anyone, you know these days to try to navigate the city of Boston without a GPS, you know just doesn't wage does go back especially as we've all become reliant on our technology forgotten how to figure out your directions. So if you think about this from a clinical perspective, my my patience. Don't learn just smoke in my office, you know, they don't learn to get anxious in my office. They don't learn to overeat my office. And so I remember, you know, look at it and looking out of my my office window at the bath. I was at the VA hospital. We are smoke-free campus and see my patients, you know, it's like they have a cigarette one hand in out in the parking lot and they have what do they have in their other end, you know Cornel West puts their weapons of mass distraction write their cell phones. So it's like well if people you know, our brains are really set up to learn things in context, so can I actually help people learn things in context at the time Gail had patented some of my Neuroscience work and you know, start up this startup company pressing in an incubator and we hired a a documentary. It was just a young woman, uh name was Cheeto puffs was right out of their School of Management who was a documentary filmmaker, and she said why don't we use your evidence based training and put this in an app, you know, this is Jacob in 2012, you know back when most people were never thinking about, you know, digital Therapeutics, which is a term that was only developed just a couple of years ago, you know, can you actually deliver treatment through an a month? And when it was my one of my career mentors at Kathy Carroll at Yale was just starting to do studies in implementing cognitive behavioral therapy online. So I was thinking go online sounds good songs. Don't even better cuz everybody's got one in their pocket. So we said, okay, let's let's develop, you know, let's let's cut these evidence-based trainings and put them into Apps and test these you know where they can get bite-sized training and get it right, you know, we're in context they don't have to come to my office. They don't need childcare. There's no co-pay, you know, all this stuff and so we started with a smoking down to see and if that would work for smoking cessation. It's called craving the quit I think you'd mentioned that earlier and we actually we did a study where we look to see if we can actually change brain activity, you know, cuz I'm looking for mechanism want to make sure this stuff works. So we basically could bring people in this is in collaboration with Amy James at Harvard and she has great cheesecake. I'm watching puts people in a from my scanner shows them pictures of cigarette smoking or neutral q's and can measure their their default mode Network brain activity and then we can randomize them to get you know, this mindfulness Juniper National Institutes app and then a month later we can scan the brain again long story short, we found that there was a direct correlation between the amount of posterior cingulate activity that was decreased month and the decrease in cigarette smoking but that was specific to the Mind from this group The National Cancer institute's app did not show that correlation around it. I know I don't know what to say about that. We found a dose-dependent relationship. So both groups completed about the same number of modules yet with the mindfulness training group. It was the correlation was .49 was almost twenty-five. Whereas the more modules that completed the better. They don't know correlation again with the NC. I am not sure what to say about that. So here, you know, we're seeing drags mechanism. So we then said okay, you know smoking. Let's see if we can do this. Doing same learning mechanisms. Long story short a study led by Ashley Mason at UCSF 40% reduction in craving related eating in people using re right now mindfulness training help them work through craving help them drop, their, you know, the reward value of eating all this stuff 40% reduction 35% reduction in eating in response to negative emotion, right? So it was actually tapping into that mechanism. Then we created this anxiety app called on by the exciting first did a study with anxious positions long story short. We got a 57% reduction in God Seven scores. He's clinically validated anxiety scores. We replicated that in a randomized control trial that was funded by the NIH where we got a 63% reduction in grade seven scores in people with generalized anxiety disorder, right? These are the Olympians of worry and we also found mechanistically that they increased their mindfulness. Yep. They're non non reactivity this upscale of this bypass and mindfulness questionnaire that increase mediated a reduction in worried that reduction in worry mediated a reduction in anxiety Thursday. We're here we're seeing mechanistically that increases in this non reactivity, which is what Minds most trains people to do reduces worry which in turn reduces anxiety now just to put this in context this was compared to treatment as usual. So the treatment is usual group. I think they dropped their anxiety scores by about fifteen or sixteen percent. So that's you know, respectable in a couple of months, but you know, 63% versus 16% There's a way to actually calculate what's called a number needed to treat you're probably familiar with this others might be as well. I think if this is you know, how many lottery tickets do you need to take before you win? And so for the typical medication for anxiety? The number needed to treat is 5.15. So you have to create just over five people before one person shows a significant role. Reduces to you know gets a remission basically in their anxiety. So 5.15 with this online anxiety app. The number needed to treat was one point six. So you'll need to fax over 1 and 1/2 people before, you know, somebody showed a significant benefit. So here, you know with these digital Therapeutics, we're finding, you know, they're accessible there. You can you can make them very affordable people can anybody that has a cellphone or a smartphone can have access to these so that we can get this to people in geographically remote areas, we can reduce barriers. So this is just, you know, rich white people that can, you know can afford to you know, do some treatment like this. This is something that can be available to anyone and we're here we're seeing both mechanistically and imperfectly that these that these programs work. So we're really excited to see that, you know, we can actually help this whole field of digital Therapeutics move forward through evidence-based mindfulness training programs, but all of that wage, Back to mechanism it goes back to really understanding how our minds work and then learning how to work with our minds. That way. I love that. You know, I was watching you as you were talking and one of the things I like to do and people are talking is see where they light up and man you like you laugh about that. You can tell that this is something that you're incredibly passionate about and probably is pulling together a lot of your life's work and your values that are being lived out in this work and I'm curious about that. Like, what is the meaning behind this work for you in a deeper way? What a great question. Well as a clinician and I'm sure you can relate to this. It's great to see when my patients are doing. Well, you know and medications, you know, I'm a psychiatrist. I prescribe medications. Just don't do a great job. I mean for some people and it probably depends on genetic polymorphisms, whatever some people benefit from things like ssris for anxiety, but the majority of people they really need to learn how their minds work wage. So it's really gratifying to see patients do well, but the other thing even more personally is you know is as a physician. I took this this oath first Do no harm mindfulness track is much less likely to cause harm for people, you know, in terms of side effects and things like that. No, it's not zero risk and certainly for some populations especially folks with a trauma history et cetera. They need to work with as you just go therapist that has training with that that aside is training is helping people live better lives. And as kind of like a a side benefit wage compared to a side affect their generalizing this to other aspects of their lives. So they are finding that when they are, you know, when they learned mindfulness they're kinder to other people and so long we start to see the spreading effect. Where you know kindness is actually writing in the world simply through somebody coming in whether it's through an app or you know to my clinic or whatever where people are learning to live off only, you know more calm and peaceful lives but more connected and kind lives where that kindness is spreading to others and that's really you know, what did Martin Luther King jr. Say in his his his letter from a Birmingham Birmingham Jail he was talking about, you know, we will meet your hatred with kindness and we went to double Victory and he says that kindness will be the salvation of our civilization and that's I think that's really what gets me up in the morning is that you know, I personally have benefited so much from learning how my mind works learning these these mindfulness practice is all the way back to the Buddhist psychology. But really this is the only thing that makes sense to me, you know is like to live my life this way to you know it home. so gratifying to just be in service of others just through simply helping them understand how their minds work and then watching them Blossom when they realize off this is I can actually live a better life simply through bringing awareness and letting my brain take care of the rest because kindness feels better, you know generosity deals better. There was something there was a a suit that even from the Pali Canon where the Buddha talked about, you know, people only knew what generosity feels like, they wouldn't go a single meal without sharing it with another, you know, like that's how powerful this is. I'd rather have a potluck than a catered meal any day off. I think what I heard or what I was spotting and you was both this really true desire to help people and spread that in a Broadway as well as that value of curiosity job. That you were talking about that you're trying to Foster in others that it really seems that that showing up in your in your professional work as a scientist as really true open-minded curiosity of where is this going to take us as opposed to that predetermined practice that I think that sometimes science gets caught up in I don't think anybody's ever asked me that before it was so it's it's really nice to get off select back on why I did this work. So thank you. You can just tell where people get excited like their Pace starts to increase and you can feel like behind their eyes you're having this imagery happening this month a simulation of the process of creating I could I could feel it. You mean I could feel it energetically with you and I imagine that's been the case for you across your career. I mean, I know that you sort of get into whatever you're into and then you're on to the next month thing. They're into it just keeps on developing but I'm kind of fascinated by by you as a person. How did you do medical school and meditate two hours a day. That's interesting. Yeah. Well medical school is really well. Started getting into it. I think it was when I was in residency when I started doing, you know ramping up the practice or maybe right after residency. Oh, yeah, I was started doing two hours straight as a way Drake smoking study and it was right after residency, but I have to say, you know, I can be so much. I'm so much more efficient and focused with this practice. I can't imagine what I would be like if I didn't, you know, if I hadn't been introduced to my place early on so yeah, it's your roots. I mean, I guess that's what it what it becomes. I think especially for people right now that have had a mindfulness practice or a spiritual practice or whatever their deal is maybe even an exercise practice. They're like regular Walkers having that as long something to route back into is incredibly helpful. And when when you're going through stressful stuff, you're you went through MD Ph.D program. It's a different kind of stress, but it's super high-stress environment having that is a found dog. And I think makes complete sense, but maybe you couldn't have done it. If you didn't have that or maybe you would have needed like a serious addiction to get through it. Actually other course the people take yeah, that's true. But I think about as you're as you're talking how in the world. Do you do all that not get caught up in the the cycle of ambition and self-promotion and either so much of money out there right now also so much of your heart that's behind us. How do you practice that in your daily life like not get hooked by your phone pictures of you took basic that well, it comes back to awareness and curiosity. There's two sides of the mindfulness coin. When I pay attention and I see what it feels like to get caught up in self promotional stuff. It just it just doesn't know I'm good. I can see from your facial expression, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It's like I guess I should post this on Twitter cuz I'm supposed to but it's like not cuz I'm excited. You know, it's like I'm I'm happy to post like if I read something on Twitter, that's especially if it's about kindness or something. It's like I'm happy to repost that speed or whatever. It's called cuz it just feels good to spread that but it's like when I have to pee myself it just and honestly it's like, you know, if it's going to get out there it's going to get out there and me pushing. It just doesn't feel authentic and doesn't feel rewarding enough that I'm going to do it. So it's like I'm going to let it just put it out there and see what happens and I just can't actually force myself to do it anymore because just turns my stomach and just awful. Is not work, I'd rather live a life of obscurity, you know and just simply there's plenty to be curious about, you know, so I can I can be curious and obscurity and not you know, not try to get my theories or my name out there and be much happier than spending my entire life. Just trying to get people to listen to what I have to say boy talk about not not being a rewarding. You know, that's what I love about this stuff is I don't have to worry about there's no judge theory of anything off. This is like it's just basic stuff. That's freely available information. Yeah, so I can be like, oh be obscure the Buddha. Oh, you know Eric kandel all these really smart key figure this stuff out and I'm just applying it and helping people live better lives through it. It doesn't have to have my name on it all and inspect the more I spend time trying to get my name on something the more energy I wasted. That I could be using helping people. So interesting Natalie was helping us get on the call this morning and talking to her about this heat wave. We're having here in in Santa Barbara and last night. We went to the beach at 5:00. It was still Ninety Degrees and I took my to my actually my partner had to drop me off because you can't park at the beaches because of covet so he dropped me off and you know kind of threw us out there and we were swimming and there was this man who's probably in the seventies something with his dog and as I was watching him swim in the ocean at 5:00 with his dog, I was like this is what life is about and then I turned to my kids and I was watching them and I was like, wait a minute. This is what life is about right and then I had to go check my phone because part was coming to pick us up and I don't want to get lost in the ocean and you know, he has to drive. He literally has to drive off with to jump in and I go back to my phone and I open it up and I push the email button. I got an email here is still you know, Doctor Jones by obob Lottery on the air and then I'm like rebirth For the emails and all of a sudden I have lost it right. I had lost it and because you because of your work and because I've been listening to and reading about you and you know, this is all something I practice outside of Home Brewer preparation. I was able to put the phone down and go back but I know that there's been a lot of times when I've been at that same Beach and probably been on my phone for 50% of the time and missing the man with the dog or maybe my own experience that who knows when it's our last right? So I appreciate your ability to take these complex. I mean you're talking complex Neuroscience that you're doing day in day out this is not simplified stuff, but being able to really leave it together with your own personal practice and Eastern practices and then translate it for us in this really tangible way that we can now walk in on our phone and use and maybe if I were on my phone and using one of your apps, it would have said get back in the water system. Check your email. I appreciate that. It's a really a a wonderful way of using technology. To help many and I think that we really need that right now. Well said, thank you. Is there anything that you want to leave Swift? I would just say yeah stay curious about stay curious and that's really all we need. Well linked all your stuff as we're obligated to do and we will post pictures of both you and graphics and some of that footwork, but I do encourage people to check out your I think it's like ten million viewed type talk at home to your website and all of a free verse resources that you offer there as well. I think that you'll start off in a journey where you can just keep on unpacking more and more and more I can help us out. So well link to all of that as well. Thank you. Take care. Thank you. Thank you for listening to psychologists off the clock. If you enjoy our podcast you can help us out by leaving a review or contributing on patreon. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can connect with us on Facebook. Twitter and Instagram, we'd like to thank our strategic consultant Michael Harold and our interns Katie rothfelder and Melissa Miller. This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and is not meant to be a substitute for mental health treatment. If you're having a mental health emergency dial 911. If you're looking for mental health treatment, please visit the resources page of our web page at 5:00 site.com.

posterior cingulate Doctor Diana Hill dr. Jack Brewer dr. Debbie Sorensen partner Jim Breuer Brown University Judd Brewer orbitofrontal cortex Jill Stoddard Anderson Cooper California Denver San Diego Iraq Charles duhigg assistant professor Savannah Joseph Ledoux
Dr. David Rabin

You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes

2:00:33 hr | Last month

Dr. David Rabin

"You made it weird with the meat. All what's happening weirdos. This is dr david rabin who blew my mind many many times. Dr david is a neuroscientist. He's a board certified psychiatrist. He's a health tech entrepreneur and inventor who has been studying the impact of chronic stress in humans for over a decade. he's also the co founder and chief innovation officer at apollo neuroscience which developed the apollo neuro. Which if you've been listening to this podcast has absolutely changed my life. He's an interesting fat. I'm gonna say fascinating man very interested in consciousness very interested in everything that i love talking about and honestly this episode was like a dose of free therapy for me and i hope you get as much out of it as i did. Because we're talking about some pretty broad. I guess i should say issues. That i hope you can relate to. Obviously we talk a lot about the narrow in this episode. If you guys are interested in the apollo neuro you can get one obviously quite easily by going to apollo neuro dot com slash weird and getting ten percent off and showing. Your support of the show is probably helpful to know going in that it is a wearable piece of tack. Wear it around your wrist or your ankle that helps. You helps your body rather recover from stress. Apollo can help you relax. Sleep focus and be more productive. Wearable hug for the nervous system using touch therapy to help you save and in control and i can attest to. That is absolutely what it does. It delivers gentle soothing vibrations. Like a song. There's different programs that you run each one's a different song that you're nervous system can here in its own language and it trains you to recover and rebalanced after stress. There's the energy and wakeup which we talk a little bit about in episode which is like a shot of espresso. it is no joke social and open clear and focused which is one of my favorite in the morning. When i'm sitting down to work rebuild and recover is wonderful after a workout or after a particularly stressful situation. Meditation and mindfulness has made my meditation practice. Easier and way deeper than it's been in years. It relaxing unwind is what i put it on when i'm watching tv and sometimes it's so relaxing. Actually we watch less tv. Because i'm let's go to bed. And then i get in bed. Sleep and renew. Apollo neuro actually trains the nervous system to cope better with stress. Over time. the more you use it better works. And it was developed. As i mentioned the our guest today. A neuroscientist and board certified psychiatrist. Who's been studying. The impact of chronic stress for nearly fifteen years oppose effects on stress sleep. Cognitive performance and recovery have been proven and multiple clinical trials and real world studies. So this isn't a crystal orb mood ring. This is real science. And it's made a real impact on my life. So for ten percent off to apollo niro dot com slash weird. Apo l. o. N. e. u. r. o. dot com slash weird. And give it a try and show your support of this. Podcast also brought to us by our friends at ever lane. Ever lane is an ethical and wonderful and wonderfully transparent online clothing company. That's encouraging all to go on an adventure. It doesn't mean you have to go into the jungle or a mountain. Maybe you're just reading a new book or trying out a new brench patio spot. I ever lane whatever. You're up to has premium essentials to outfit you in comfort. They have some many versatile items that you can dress up and that you can dress down. I've been very vocal about how much i loved their denim jackets. I got one in blue. And i got one in black. I've worn that jacket. Fancy fancy things. And i've also just dropping off at school. It is a wonderful thing to have this company that i know is ethical. And i know makes high-quality wonderful clothing. That looks great and will last for years to come. They do extensive research and vetting to use ethical factories that provide fair wages and reasonable hours to the skilled people who craft their clothing the timeless design and use the finest sustainable materials. So you can wear them for years to come and most retailers hide their markups but not ever lean ever lane believes their customers. Have the right to know how much their close cost to make at every stage of production. Every lane is everything you need to upgrade your summer. Look or your fall. We're coming into it now. Whether you're going out on the town with friends or having a movie night with the fam- swimwear they've sceptre takeout. They have set for staying at home or going to your favorite late night spot. They're breathable organic cotton track where it gives an elevated take on tried and true basics. And as i'm sweatpants person a sweatshirt person. I am when i'm home. I'm kicking it in my ever. Lean sweats and they're truly high quality and wonderful and if you do have an issue except returns within thirty days of the ship date and all of their uniform clothing comes with a three hundred sixty five day guarantee and as i said ethical factory so it's a fit to feel good about so get some wonderful clothing and show you support this podcast go to ever lane dot com slash weird and sign up for ten percent off your first order plus free shipping and get easier turns within thirty days of your ship date. That's ten percent off your first order when you go to evelyn dot com slash weird and sign up last. But not least is our friends at me these today. I've got dinosaurs on them. That's making me feel pretty funky. It's fall y'all time to replace your water intake with pumpkin spice latte days and go way out of your way to step on a crunchy. Leave because the coast. This time of year is here. So find your comfort in undies lounge. Wear and more with me undies because mayonnaise believes that comfort is about more than what's touching. Your skin is about feeling comfortable in your skin. So i heard about me on these on another podcast and we did a complete overhaul every single pair of underwear every single pair of our lounge pansa for pj pans and onesies had before. Now i mean. Andy's onesies is now the softest micro fabric the funnest patterns and the best fitting underwear i've ever had basically imagine the softest thing you've ever imagine that same thing but on your but now you're thinking about me these. They're designed by the country's top softness scientists to be the softest thing you've ever worn period from underneath a land where they're fabrics they're breathable light and almost irresistibly and irresponsibly. Cozy really might want. You might never get off the couch again. You've been warned available in sizes extra small through four. xl variety of classic colors and iconic brands. Mayonnaise will have your back and your off all along and they have a wonderful offer for weirdos for any first time purchasers you get fifteen percent off and free shipping and he's also as a problem free philosophy. If you're not satisfied with any product or any reason refunder exchange it no caveats and no questions so to get fifteen percent off your first order. Free shipping and one hundred percent satisfaction guaranteed go to dot com slash. Weird that's mandy dot com slash weird and show your support of the show. Speaking of which we have to live shows coming up both at largo. October seventh is my stand up. Show which is fantastic. Thanks to everybody who came out this month. It was the highlight of my month. As always is an october eighteenth. We're doing another live. You made it weird at largo. And i can't announce the guest. It's not confirmed yet. But it's going to be a hoot for tickets to both of those go to largo dash. La dot com all right. Everybody enjoy dr david. I really really really really really really really really really really loved this conversation. And i hope you do to get into it. My name is katie is recording and is it okay to call you doctor. David mostly call dr raymond or dr dave. So i'll say whenever it works. I don't wanna off route with dr david. I'll go doctor dave but we were. It's rat robin robin raven. I went rabin katie. And i were just talking about this. I was like he's rabin. I know rabin vestige traditional hebrew pronunciation but were americanized sow. Silent has changed everything. I mean you're talking to a over here. Maybe we should edit that out. I don't know if i want people knowing my mother's maiden name katie. You can edit that out or you can just bleep at. That'd be funnier Just bleep it as if anyone could spell at good luck but they changed all sorts of stuff. Obviously how so. Thank you for taking the time. I'm really excited to talk with you if it's okay we're already recording in the show on your only or video audio. I like that. You're blurring your background deep throat. It's very like where are you right now. Is they're just a pile of naked bodies behind you if they actually. I'm in my office in my house. In upstate new york but be backgrounds because we we just got here in the background is little baron and it has a window behind it that throws a lot of light and so it makes the Next according during a little weird. If i don't blur it because it adds too much too much light washes me out. I understand. that's why my blinds closed. We don't have to take too much of your time. But i want to introduce the the weirdos. That's what we call our listeners to you i'm wearing my apollo today this very likewise i'm constantly who same color i just want to thank you for it. It's i hope you get this all the time. So won't say it too much but like without going into too much detail. I was having a really great morning. I was on clear and focused hanging with my baby. That's a setting on the apollo. And then i got a text from my parents. And that's and that's all the takes dr day like we are so i'd love you to speak to this. We're so fragile. We're so strong. And we're brave. And we're so courageous. We do amazing things. And we are so fragile. It's a both end situation. And for example the way i can be brave i do stand up i can perform for ten thousand people and my nervous system is is down for that. It is okay with that but the temperament that made me into a comedian is so hypersensitive that text from my dad. That wasn't oculus. Put me into a state that i would like into. Concrete as opposed to flowing and open and spacious and light i became solid and rigid. And you know when your teeth. Just start to hurt and it's actually worse because you know they didn't mean to upset you like if they meant to upset you be like oh i guess we're fencing now like having a good healthy sparring mattress mean. It wasn't that it was like it felt so unconscious. Don't like and then and then kicks in is the shame that you're so easily triggered. I don't know if you can relate to that tara. Barack this great buddhist teacher of ours is like it's not the feeling most of suffering is the shame that you're feeling the feeling and i pride myself on being together person a with it person and strong person. If i'm being honest i'd like to think of myself as strong. And then i was like boom one text i turn into concrete and i get upset. Here comes the compliment though. Although i wanna talk all about stress i wanna talk about what was going on in my body all all the different things that my brain thinks is happening even though it's a tax from six thousand miles away which by the way is what i did. I put my hand on my chest to love myself. And i said you are safe. I got you like grown-up pete has you. Don't wake but on. Top of that. Dr dave and i've said this in every time we've done a little shoutout for the apollo. There's something i could do. I and i hope i did it right. I put it on after all the trauma. I put it on rebuild and recover and it just training. And i feel it training me to go like shh. It feels like that it feels like someone going easy easy my darling. Oh i know i know and just like deep breathing or just like someone rubbing your shoulders or something like that. I started to be able to drop the stress. So why don't you talk a little bit about what was happening to me. Maybe how stress impacts you and your life and then what the apollo and even some of the thought techniques. That helped me on wind chirping. And i'm so glad that it's helpful for you. It sounds like you used it exactly the right way. Oh com in one of many bright ways. There's a lot of ways the upon abused you using rebuilding recover after any intense physical mental or emotional or even to some extent spiritual strasse wherever the stress is coming from Rebuilding recover we found in studies as well as in the real world Rapidly bring the body back into balance and it is kinda like what you said right is almost like swatting for adults. Because we'd like to. We like or like an adult slough right. It's like we'd like to think of ourselves as as far different and far more advanced in grown up and mature than we were we were children but sometimes it just takes texts were parent or a funny look or word tone from a parent or family member to remind us that were still just babies dr game. We are one task away. Somebody can go and your and you can be triggered by that this big i. I'm saying facetiously big strong man and you have your charleston a car and you shouldn't be so fragile pow and you know what else and i'm just saying this to another human not apollo specific. I had to go thank you. Have you ever played that game with your response you go. Thank you spiritually speaking you go. I'm not better than people i am. Vulnerable and knowing my vulnerability is a better strength. It's a better strength instead of eating or drinking it. Away or watching john wick and i've all of those things just watching a violent movie and trying to cathartic car size your shame and your and your dread but just to own it and say but that's what the apolo seem to be doing to. It's okay that you're feeling this way. And i joined it in that mantra-like i want to think i'm better than people and that's separation and there's actually a beautiful thing in going. No i just like everybody. And i'm breakable. Just like everybody. And it's exhausting pretending to be superman when really dr dave. We're all batman or our parents are dead. We live in a cave. We dress up and fight as best we can. That's why i've always hated superman. And i'll always love batman please continue. I didn't mean to interrupt. But i'm just so excited to talk about this with you know that was great. I think that you know you really brought up a lot of a lot of great points there right and i think that the first point that i'll take on as you know one of the things that came up when you started talking about your experience this morning. Which is that wet. That stress itself is inevitable. Right can't stop. None of us can just run away to the point where stressed doesn't happen anymore. Can't find they're always be things that make us stressed out or the challenge us in another way of thinking that challenge us to overcome something or to be growing become better and stronger versions of ourselves stand ultimately when we start to feel emotions. We are often taught that certain motions are acceptable and certain emotions are unacceptable breakage. Thank you in that judgment that were taught to apply to ourselves in those experiences. Actually the single biggest misstep that most of us can avoid that. We don't necessarily know how to navigate because we weren't taught at if we weren't taught that you expect yourself to figure it out but it is. It is navigable right. It's not uncharted territory. People everything that we think facing for the first time others face before. And i think from if we look at the buddhist traditions or the ancient hindu yoga traditions as well as the ancient judeo christian traditions around healing and achieving higher states of consciousness in and wellbeing They all kind of center on one thing which is to do everything we can to be present with our emotions when they come in and to just acknowledge them and sit with them without judging right served them to sit down and give them to you have and as you said and this is something that i use with every single one of my clients and i've used as myself as well in my own. Healing journey is to express gratitude and thanks to ourselves and four. The feeling that we're feeling this moment in what happens when we do that. And we express thanks or gratitude for that experience rather than judging it is all the sudden after you know five seconds ten seconds a minute or do go by the intensity around that ceiling starts to kind of dissolve it we start to naturally get a sense in understanding of wears coming from. What is this signals as emotional signals trying to tell me what is the message behind this signal that i'm receiving from something that's either happening because of a way that i'm looking at myself for a wave or something getting the environment and try to we try to figure out where that's coming from and ben solved the problem. We're really get to the root of what that emotion is trying to tell us to do and when we when we allow judgment in oftentimes just because we've been taught to when we allow judge in what happens is our mind starts to instead of being present with that experience our mindsets go back into the past to the to the associations with that emotion like oh. I'm feeling sad. I was told when i was young. That sadnesses not acceptable right. And then then you start getting to the shane right. There's something wrong with me for feeling sad or something wrong. feeling angry. and then it's become self deprecating in highly self critical like Why me why am. I always ingrid right. Why am i always that. And then that starts to attach the motion the signal to our identity. And then that causes perpetuate over time into the future and so we can stop that entire cycle by just taking a step back and recognizing in the moment bringing our minds back into our centered into our bodies which happens with soothing. Touch the pressure on the chest into that earlier Yep right deep breathing. Hugs for loved ones holding pets. Apollo yoga gentle exercise meditation. All of these things work in the same way to send you our minds back into our bodies back into the present moment and allow us to express gratitude for being in control of our attention and being able to sit with. Whatever it is we're experiencing in this moment without judgment. I love it. We could end right now. Everybody's got their money. Where my the free podcasts. But they got their money's worth if we hadn't been in the car Val was with me. that's my wife. And she was being very supportive and she. We were like if we weren't driving right now. We would just cuddle puddle. Like that's all there's like a we didn't. I wasn't ready to conceptualize it. I was still in the thick of it. It's almost like a bomb has gone off in a movie and you hear that like he and we love talking about feelings but then again even more shameless coming whereas like look. You can't even go to your resources right now because you're so stressed and so concretize the you can't even start talking about it as a concept and that's when i remembered what exactly what you're saying which is like it's it's because you think you shouldn't be feeling this way i you know i i haven't talked to many people that not only know relate to what i said which saying yes. Thank you which is my mantra for most things to the feeling to this. Ugly horrible beasts. That's rob in your mind. Robbing you of the joy of the moment. And what's worse. I think you'll recall in the story. I said i was having a great morning. But don't you think the beast love telling me that it was like and you were having a great morning and then it was taken from you. Do you ever get the feeling that like these things are like sugar. It's like feeding the bad microbes in your stomach. Like just shit like or or or feeding like nasty things. I like the junk food thing. It feels like a cheap fuel for your cheap identity and your cheap identity as what's owed to you who should be respecting you. Who should be kissing your ass. Who should be giving you things and basically the answer to that is often everybody. Everybody should be worshiping me. And then that's broken and then it. There's almost like excitement that the ego can't wait to feed on the depressive disrespect from the dad. It gets excited and you have to break out of that trans. Can you relate to that feeling eker. Tony calls it the pain body. It's like he says whenever you overreact. It's because it's the collective almost cellular memory of every bad thing that's ever happened to you becomes like another entity and it possesses you. And you mentioned the judeo christian tradition. Before i had teachers explained to me that they think that the demonic stories of jesus casting out demons were things like this that we're dealing with when you see red when you white out when you become a snapped in some way that you can't get over a looping negative thought that does feel like a demonic possession to me for sure it can feel like whatever we practice interpreting it as right in a lot of a lot of. I think the easiest way to think about it is that we are. We are god of our own reality bright and divinity exists. Not only all around us than above us like we were taught but many of us were dumping also in us. It's not exclusionary of us is part of us. We are part it and some one of the most fundamental everything is a practice makes perfect situation right one of the most fundamental traumas that we face as beings is if we deny our own in our own individual part of divinity right. We denied we are part of godliness and holiness than we are sinners we are. We are only capable of doing wrong. We are always in a state of atonement or repentance to god as god that is neither until survey ideas if we practice thinking about. That's just one of many concepts can get trapped in that many of us get trapped in growing up in j christian religions. But i think that there's a really interesting idea that. Which is that. If you practice thinking about the world in that way as god only exists outside of us it without us being involved in it than you get really really good at an automatically basically thinking about the world from that perspective where we start to be frank our relationship to holiness or divinity gets fractured right and we do not feel accepted necessarily by the whole we feel like we're kind of on the outside of the home and that's one of the most fundamental teachings that we try to work with people spiritually speaking to repair in the psychotherapy contacts in a lot of people have been doing in the tribal Healing contacts indigenous cultures in africa in south america for you know who knows how long tens of thousands of years detention But this goes through literally everything that we do everything that we think about. In the world with everything we practice we get better at good and bad perceiving ourselves as as separate will become more powerful over time stronger the more than we think about ourselves that way so to the credit of what you're saying it really is about acknowledging that in actual expressing gratitude to witness expe- part of that experience so that we can then recognize the opportunity for changing. Rose will that so again. says it's easy to say the world is mad. It's insane it's harder to say. I am insane and the brilliant and beautiful thing about saying i am insane and dr day. I am telling you. I am insane and frankly i believe somewhere in you. A little insane. Meaning it's a collective meaning it's like we're all nerve endings in one brain and i. I don't see the insanity out there. And i'm the same one. I think. That's a real temptation. But when you go i am insane. That is an active. Sanity is because you've separated yourself from the insanity long enough like what we're saying with the feelings. You've stepped outside of it long enough to be impartial. We could say witness or whatever. You're the impartial. One noticing phenomenon. Inside of you that were calling insanity and that's quite literally not just the first step a really important step to healing. What what would you call that in your field is that is that associative nine got really good point i mean. I think that there has a couple different names. I think the the way that i would describe it as acknowledgement annex Right so it's really accepting our own. If i acknowledging like when a thought or feeling comes in right the first step that we that we are that we teach with cognitive therapy which is brilliant former. Psychotherapy is to acknowledge the feel right without judgment. Were just saying. Hey i see you. I see as a thought. I is feeling. I'm not judging you. I'm feeling i'm just right. If you if you get out of here. It charges it up right at it like a like a crying child or something it just makes it worse right because the whole reason why we're feeling anything or thinking about anything is because something is drawing our attention for reason and we may not necessarily think that because again we weren't taught it but that's the facts the facts are that if you feel something or think something there's always. Some reason behind wider thing is coming up. It doesn't mean that that feeling is accurate. Representation or the thought is an accurate representation but it does mean that. There's something in that's responsible for that thought and ceiling. Yes it's like. Drinking is the symptom of the pro. You know what i'm saying like you might say. I have a drinking problem but really like deeper down. There might be a reason. You're medicating yourself in that way. Does that seem parallel to what you're saying. Yeah i think to that end if you think. I also have addiction medicine as a big part of my specialty in practice and just titles ends together. I think the the next step is to imagine your cells as the anger emotion or as jealousy or as Fear or sadness and you're knocking at the door being like. Hey but i wanna tell you something. I need to get your attention for a moment. And the person just ignores right doesn't answer. The door opens the door. Sees you in the door in your face right. And that's that's not gonna make anybody feel good. That's it right and we're supposed to all be friends here right. We're all part of the same organism. We're all the same experience rothwells to be friends so when you just take the time to knowledge the emotion as a friendly gracious way all of a sudden most emotions dissolves in about ninety seconds. Then you can get on with your life and that just requires a little bit of time to it in the in acknowledgment and base of i noticed this without judgment and i feel it accepted as part of me is amendment that subsequent question right. Which is something we teach in cvt cognitive behavioral therapy all the time which i think is like the golden gem of of cd t- At the core which is to then ask the question of once. We've accepted what we're experiencing in this moment. Is this true and useful to me right now and that test is tested. All of our thoughts should pass through to enter to allow us to devote attention to them. If we have thought that is worth or a feeling that is not both true and useful to us than instead of judging it. We just say okay. I acknowledge you accept that. Your pardon me. Thanks but no thanks. I'll come back to you late. That's right yeah. I love that. Do you know byron. Katie's work at all. It reminds me of ya. I which i love she she would even go. None of them are true. Like really in like a very far zoomed out way when you do that exercise most miraculous an interesting thing that most people realize after about a couple of weeks or a month in doing that we realized with almost everything that comes in if either not true or not useful to us and so we start to be able to understand that we trained our minds to let in not necessarily any of our own. But we've been taught to think about the world in a way that allows in useless untrue thoughts and headed over and over and over and over and over again right and the more that we spend time are precious limited attention each day thinking about those kinds of things. Those are usually things we don't have control over which is wider useless and therefore they causing zaidi which is the feeling of being out of control right so the more time we then say okay. I'm grateful for the opportunity to take back control of my attention by acknowledging. This is not true or not useful right now. We regain control of our attention. We allow the thoughts tasks hence the practice of mindfulness right. You're mindful of the thought you don't judge you don't associated with your identity as results of judgment you let it pass. And then all of a sudden you've reclaim your attention and that attention. You directed the things you can control your breath your movement your expression of gratitude forgiveness compassion or love or or any number of other things that we have control over and then all of a sudden guess what you practiced little bit and then all useless and untrue thoughts starts get filtered out automatically and then you start to feel more in control of your life because you're spending more time in terms of percentage of time each day thinking about things actually have control over. That's right. I love that. I mean this comes up. A lot on this podcast. Don't believe everything you think. I think i see that bumper sticker every once in a while. I'm like look. I'm not a bumper sticker guy but if i was it would be. Don't believe everything you think because what you're saying we believe. Our thoughts are repetitive. Sane untrue if you pause and look at them they are untrue and if people are one of the things katie teaches. If you're having a feeling let the feeling speak. let the feeling talk to you. And now you'll have the thought behind the feeling and then you can investigate that feeling true but i feel like so many of us just know ourselves to be our thoughts. Like what else could we be. And we're sort of back to the fundamental problem. Right is you're like what do you mean. Don't believe thoughts. I'm not trying to put down family members. But if i said to family members i'd be like don't believe your thought i don't think not. All of them would have the footing. Follow me into that lesson or slippery slope right and we have to be gary careful with our wording here because language is the way that we construct and sustain are right so when we think about the what you just said which is really important right. Don't believe your thoughts that can be a very slippery slope into a world of delus- analogy or into world of of Of a total disregard for all the things going around us many of which are real And so i think the real essence here is not not necessarily to not believe your thoughts but to question what you're top right. Joan necessarily disbelieve by de facto. But question your thoughts question. The things that you were taught and try to understand. Is this coming from me right. Is this something that comes from me. I've learned for my own life experience. I know it out of doubt in my bones to be true or is it something that comes from someone else that taught me this. That doesn't necessarily seem to be consistent with my day to day experience. And then when you start to think about that then you can start to understand what's yours and what's not and what's worthy of your attention and what's not you're killing. You're killing me right now. I'm dying doing backflips. just exactly what. I'm so happy to be putting out there. I don't mean for addiction to keep coming back. But i consider myself an addict and a lot of ways and i stopped drinking and the reason i stopped drinking was i read a book. It's called the naked mind. I think you would enjoy it because what it does is it. It asks you to ask yourself who told you. Drinking was a good time and dr dave. I don't care what it is. It could be mini golf. It doesn't have to be destructive to your body. Just asking yourself wait. Do i really like this or am. I just doing the impression of what i think i'm supposed to be. And this this comes into gender identity identity as an american identity as a race like am i just going around like a marionette being like of course i like phil collins. I'm a forty two year old white man. Do you really. I actually do like phil collins. But i'm just saying like one of the beautiful things about consciousness becoming conscious and it goes back to the triggering. My dad triggered me and see it as an opportunity to go. Why let get weird. Let's get embarrassing. Let's have the guts to be as frank and as honest as our unconscious is because they're on our unconscious is ready to give you a dream that makes you feel sexually strange. It's ready to you a dream that makes you feel like associate pathak murderer. It is playing with all the cards. And if you dare just to go in the shallow end of your unconscious and and be as frank with your self consciously as your unconscious is sending all the emotions and the thoughts knocking to your door. Real progress seems to be made. Would you agree with that. We have to have courage to get fierce and go. Who am i really. What's going on here. I don't like. I don't like baseball. Like i had one of those when twelve dad. I don't like baseball. I just like attention. I liked the uniform. You know these sorts of things without a doubt. And i think that it has a lot to do with With the idea of wanting to know right wanting to know particularly about the unknown and rather than embracing this idea of what we saw many of us were taught which is that. I must know why. Right i must understand everything about myself and how i fit into society or this particular instance of of human culture that i grew up in. Perhaps there's something more right. It's the idea that perhaps there's something more. Perhaps there's more to me than i'm not aware of that. I by embracing what i don't know as equal to what i know in terms of importance allows me to embrace self-discovery without judgment right. It's getting back to that full circle of of were taught to judge so we will and the other part of it is that we're creatures of habit as well right so the more we do anything the more familiar it seems and that thing could be destructive and harmful to us like an addiction and we still find comfort in it because it's familiar Migdal on the center of our brains the core part of our fear response which also was involved in managing appetite. Hunger and food drives as well as sexual drives is basically detecting At its most fundamental core. Is this familiar or is this. Unfamiliar familiar at times of stress is what we cling to because anything that's unfamiliar as you might imagine at a time of stress or where our body perceives us to be under a potential survival threat even though we may actually be very safe but were to over stimulated to overwhelm Responsibilities too many infanta leising comments from our parents. Thank you write any number of names or too much news right. Any number of these things can start to trick our bodies into thinking that we're actually in survival threat. When we're not and so. In survival states or any state of chronic chronic stress our bodies automatically cling to the familiar and reject automatically unfamiliar and they reject the unknown and anything that has to do with uncertainty because we deemed that as being potentially threatening. It's unknown threatening so you so by using techniques like we talked about earlier. The debriefing the self touch the meditation. Mindfulness practices that. We just talked about things like apollo that deliver soothing touch to the skin they actually quiet the amid right they remind that part of the amid july that is blasting off being like unfamiliar unfamiliar uncertainty danger right. They remind that part that actually. If you have the time to pay attention to something familiar feeling of someone loved one. Giving you a hog or all of your hand or the feeling of apollo gently vibrating on you or the feeling of deep breath coming into your lungs than you can't possibly be running a lion in his moment. And all of a sudden and within a few thought cycles of which are predominantly subconscious the entire stress response de escalates and then we triggered the recovery spots turn on and that diverts resources back to things that we consider to be important which are being able to control our attention regulate our emotions divert to still take reproduction. Nudity creativity it all the other stuff that digestion right good quality sleep and wrestling recovery. All that stuff gets resource taken away from our body proceeds survival karate cash frieden threat and love everything you're saying and it's really speaks to my experience this morning. I'm aware of the effective stress on digestion. And valentine were driving to breakfast and i got there and that in the restaurant i give zero flex. I'm putting my hand on my chest. And just i could've made myself cry going arlington darling. That was so hard for you. Not saying what. He just said like what he said. If you read it you wouldn't even understand why i was upset. I didn't even fully understand intellectually. While i was upset but i we're not concerned with that but like touching and loving apollo going nuts i keep it in the forty percent but you know what i mean like feeling all of that. I love how you explained it. If i can slow down and basically self parent. I feel my inner child freaking out. I said to my said develop wrote it down. I go no wonder you love booze I've had things with nicotine gum. I've had because you want something reliable. Your child quick and quick. It's it's not always the same. But it's in the ballpark of the same and my parents did the best they could. But i grew up in a situation that was not very reliable. So like i get kicked back into that and suddenly i'm in the dryer tumbling around and there's my dog who stresses me out quite a bit because i don't like noise and it's and it got me off my train of thought but i was gonna say this to you. I noticed that. When i got divorced and this was when i was twenty eight. There's a long time ago. It's as close as i came to buying a red sox hat. I've ever come in my life and i looked into it and they were saying just what you're saying that at times of trauma national trauma look at it. Look at what happens in the country when things like nine eleven happened. I'm not saying this is bad or stupid or embarrassing. I'm just saying it's a it's a macro version of what you're saying we do it writ large when there's a national tragedy we cling to the familiar now is the time for the symbols for the rituals for the group identity for the t shirts. And you see it even happening certainly in these nutso times is is. We're out too much stress. But it actually introduces some compassion. Like there's a way for me to take your words and i think turn weaponize them and be like you're a bunch of idiots your stress man. I'm stressed and i doubled down so hard on my position and now that the the covert is is easing up a little bit. I understand it's not done but it seems to be easing up a little bit. I think we're coming up a little bit from that stress in going like way. It's like the morning after an orgy. Like what was that. You know what i'm saying because you're not horny in your more now. You're not stressed anymore. Why was i doing all that stuff. Does that make sense. Yeah and i think to that point that we are all. We are all stress right now right. I think you cannot deny if we cannot deny that. We are all stressed in going through stressful times. And that we all wish we had quick ways to deliver right or even faster ways that we've had in the past. We all wish for instant gratification. Because instant gratification has been something that we've been taught existence. We were children with just the feeling of earning money. Right the idea that you could do something. And then get a a monetary reward as a result is a lot of ways feeling of instant gratification. That is a taught sealant right and this is activating the same. Parts of the brain are very similar. Parts of the brain the feeling of earning money that are activated when you were a if you were to shoot snorter line of cocaine right with the reward centers of the brain or triggered very similarly by similar things and so when you talk about addiction. I think that's really important to acknowledge talking about acknowledgement in accepted. Straight is the idea that we're all And that's usually money and sometimes lots of other things too and the and the question is if we know that that money doesn't make us happy beyond early like ninety sixty to ninety grand a year and covering our basic expenses. We know that the surveys are shown time and time again. Once you get beyond about you know thirty or forty thousand dollars of additional spending money a year at that point. You're basically just worsening. You're suffering by having more of it right. It's actually no different than the tolerance that builds up in a lot of respects to using any of the drugs talking about alcohol nicotine cocaine. Opiates amphetamines. They all results in. They all have this perceived instant gratification reward that results in profound radically destructive outcomes because if they're used as an escapist shortcut why there is no escape right there absolutely is no escape so is man you that is keep going. There's no game what freedom. There's no ischemia freedom. That is freedom right acknowledging that there's no escape at an accepting it right. Going back to the seems allows us to to relieve judgment from our current experience. All of these training. These skill sets like practicing not acknowledgement. That's skip practicing acceptance. That is also a skill practicing gratitude. That's still practicing instant gratification. That's a skill although it's not necessarily one that services in the long term so by asking the card questions of is disturbing. Is this action. Stop process this thing. I'm participating in doing serving me right. Now is use roles me right now. Then which you know doing these techniques the self touching the breeding and apollo and all these things. Help the center enough to ask that question rather than just zoom. Because it's familiar. That's right right than that allows us to ask the question. Do i really need this cigarette. Do i really need this drink or am i doing this. Because i'm going down. A path of an old sock processors cycle that i've been taught or taught myself to escape when there's no escape and then i just find myself right back in the beginning again feeling miserable anxious after the orders worn off and i don't know any of the people in the room anymore and i don't know where i am. What's going on right and then your feelings. Shame and guilt and so the idea is can we avoid shame guilt. Of course not they will happen. Stress is unavoidable will happen the idea is can we questions the coping strategies that we have been practicing rather than just accepting them as familiar insured by e fall can question them and we understand if this is not serving the lets replace it with something that is staying right. Let's replace. It was something. That actually facilitates mike growth and the growth of good powerful emotional muscles like graddick even forgiveness acceptance in compassion over time in as practices things in the context of context of acknowledging. There is no escape. Then we facilitate engaged writing facilitate self. Knowing and radical non-judgmental south inquiry which leads honored trajectory continuous upward growth rather than a trajectory of stagnation. I could cry. I love this so much. It's it's just beautiful. It taking that time i mean i i thought nine thousand things to ask you when you stopped and i was like stop thinking of things to ask here we are. I'm not sure what i'm going to ask next. But what you said was just so powerful when one image that came to mind is. It's not that we're just simply not believing everything we think. And they're and also everything we feel which is like a way of your body to think we're not just sending them into avoid. We're sort of at least in the early stages catching them in a room. Made of better thoughts right. Meaning the the belief like you. And i share the belief that compassion patience forgiveness not over stimulating. Not starting your morning by reading. Listen to the sanity. Someone else's thoughts with you have so many thoughts that you're going to read someone else's asinine thoughts not useful micro updates on a story. That won't have unfolded for another month. You're gonna get ticked by tick by tick updates into your nervous system. So what i hear. Both of us agreeing on isn't it becomes part of your consciousness right. Yes that's what you mean. It's already too crowded up here. But nobody taught us the the inherent value of pure life of pure being. it was like Not to shit on jay leno but he. He told the story that i found very disturbing. He was like whenever i go to the beach. I sit on the beach. And i'm like i must have been here for six hours. I look at my watch. And it's been fifteen minutes. And i was like i don't know jay i'm just saying jay. That's because no-one taught us darling. No-one taught us how to sit on the beach. No-one taught how to enjoy anything and that. Isn't that weird without getting too into it. My dad was asking me for tickets to see john mullany. And for some reason i was like. I don't wanna get too over sherry about my dad. But i was like dad. I feel more like you want to go. And you want me to get you the tickets more than you'd enjoy the show. Does that make sense sort of in like meeting again. My poor dad. I don't know if anyone taught him how to just enjoy something how to drop anchor into the present moment and abandoned your will to a comedian or a movie or a play or a symphony or dance. Allow yourself to be vulnerable enough to like get sucked away by the river. And it's not that didn't make me mad at my dad that made me sad and it made me wonder if i struggle from the same lack of vulnerability to really experienced anything. So that's why something is innocuous. Obviously there's the ego heard of like. Oh malays more famous than me i. I'm brave enough to to look at that. Like you wanna go see mullany. You couldn't tell me. One of my jokes if i put a gun to your head. These types of things are hurtful. But that's just base level shit really lower than that is. You're like i worry that you can't enjoy that show and that but then you katie says too. I worry that. I can't enjoy a show because i'll just be sitting there thinking about the show. Get my dad out of it. He's just my mirror. I know you notice. He's just my mirror but unfortunately he's reflecting back to me in that very oculus and innocent and fine tax reflecting back to me all of these insecurities and fears like aware wolf or a or a vampire. I'm worried that i'm a monster. It has nothing to do with him so this this is what's happening without reading the news. Every morning i was just talking to somebody about imprinting. How if i if you and i just by. Virtue of saying patients graciousness gratitude beauty love justice kindness. Drop anchor in the president. Just by you hearing me salo things in metering. You say those things. You're affecting my behavior. Would you speak a little bit about that. Sure yeah and i think that or whatever came to mind that whole tirade yet. That was great. And i think you know you you went there and you went through the process of asking what is made about me and then what does this mean about this person. Who's saying this thing to me again. What is what does lead on the again radio. And it's not necessarily what what it Again when you get to the bottles on the what it means about me. It's about What what is bringing up about the way that i see myself way See myself that is making this experience on having that should be. Innocuous should be just another thing that you don't you don't feel should bring up these kinds of feeling for or you may not heal. It'd be kinda feels warranted that sadnesses warranted. And then you actually by doing that. Process duffin corey. You can kind of get down to the bottom of it and see what part of you is hurting. As results of having interaction happened right right right and it could be more than one part And i think that there's you know ultimately we we've been taught for generations. This isn't even just in our own generation by an generations going back probably who knows maybe a thousand years. Maybe more we've been taught quite expect but especially last hundred. We've been taught to be much more human doing than human beings right but we are he beings and we have the capacity to also do and be productive if we de prioritize the being part of ourselves which is the part just capable being present and listening to whatever is going on around us without judgment because judging was doing right than what happens is we forget how we forget how to be and a big part of our minds are entirely focused on only doing stopping only be outcomes. But we talked. What is the most common common phrases we hear and we often use ourselves right. It's the means to an end. It's the idea that the process doesn't matter what i have to get to. The end doesn't matter. I'll take whatever tapes you accomplish x. Goal to get to ever milestone and that could not be more off base because it is the process itself that is our path to growth in self-discovery. It's what alan watts says. it's like the thinking. The the last note of a symphony was the point of symphony. And if it was dot dot done that's okay. That's the point like that. Is that is how we look at our lives by the way. It's very intuitive. You the texts that came after that was sort of about how john molina's new hours about addiction and then my dad sort of was like everybody seems to be like shining a light on their flaws. When really just do the right thing. And you'll always be on top. And i almost wanted to throw up because my spirituality is you. Don't come to god or truth or love by doing it right. You come to truth. Love god the mystery by doing it. Wrong or leonard cohen. The cracks or with a light comes to for fuck sake dr dave. I'm sorry you got me on this morning. I made a tv show called crashing crashing not flourishing crashing. Because it's a celebration of what. Richard or calls falling upward that we learn by being broken that i learned by being broken by his texts. About how being broken fucked up and you should just be a nineteen fifties. Gentlemen when you. And i both know that. Nineteen fifties gentleman had weird black and white pornography under his mattress that he felt really bad about but no one ever told him that. Real strength was owning his vulnerability and i keep getting fresh reminders. Not only was not taught to me. But it's still not a conversation we can have. And if that's not heartbreaking. i don't know what it is. I have a question to follow up. What does that make you think anything. We're just talking at this point. And i love it. Yeah this is i appreciate. I appreciate you being so humming and vulnerable in this in the brilliant. And i trust you immediately. I trust you five seconds and you can have it all anything you have. I feel like you should send me a bill but like as as friends whatever you wanna say about it. This is the podcast like over share. Podcast when i and i and i appreciate that I think there's a lot that can be learned from this by people who by the folks were listing eight. So it's a real pleasure to be able to did have spoken. Yes yes good. I feel the same way. Everything you're saying is pure nutrition for the for the heart. And i'm just like whoa people are going to get to hear it so you did something that a lot of people i think will be touched by so right back at you and you mind if i address your question encouraging before you go onto the next question you're gonna think this is really this is really important and a lot of people. Don't understand it again. We weren't taught at necessarily way but the idea. Is that an eric kandel. Who is one of those famous neuro. Psychiatrists in the world won the nobel prize in two thousand and two for discovering the mechanism. By which are neurons work together to Form and sustain memories in the short-term and long-term with really fascinating about that is most of those memories are stored around three different kinds of experiences experiences experience a safe in rewarding experiences that are considered to be neutral and Meaning not safe or threatening per se. Just kind of neutral Experiences that are considered to be frightening threatening or fear inducing because they are signaling potential survival threat and so in though which and survival threat i mean lack of error like water lack of food lack of shelter lack of acceptance by our peers in our community or the threat of such pain is another example right and so if we think about that concept of doing something like thinking about ourselves as not good enough to be able to accomplish. Our goals as one example strengthens rural connections and strengthens the identity part of our brains connections with that part of ourselves. That feels like we are not capable. We are not worthy. We are not deserving. We are not enough and that can stem into other parts of our consciousness like we see often my practice. But it's very very common. Which is the conception of. I am not worthy of being locked right because love was always something that was oftentimes something that was only given to us when we did something to serve and so bit which was at the discretion of our of our peers and our parents right in most cases of our community and so with that in mind. It's important to recognize that the core of healing process. It's that we have that we aren't over one all worthy of love and we are capable if we are capable of expressing gratitude and and forgiveness in compassionate love to others. Were certainly capable of giving ourselves and that that is enough and that if we don't practice in if you don't practice thinking about that speaking it staying. I deserve love. I deserve passion. I deserve forgiveness and gratitude. When you say you imprint when you write it you imprinted the more news that you engage with these. Let's call them emotional skills when the more that you engage with them the stronger the neural connections. Getting our brains. The tighter synapses get more likely it is that we will experience a world from a perspective in a framework of gratitude rather than one of fear and victimization and so so that imprinting process is absolutely fundamental to the way that we learn and develop human beings drought accord in all animals. Not just humans that the way that we develop new games at the course of lives we use written word in language so be when we think about influencing in the context of language the words that we practice using create the reality that we wind up to think about that and the power that can be restored to sense of self when you think about the most fundamental power that we have to create our outcome in our lives can be based solely on or rooted in the words that we choose something we have control over to describe ourselves in the world around us. I am doing a backflip in my heart right now i just yesterday i was writing and before i wrote i. I'll write out affirmations something that This wonderful artist. Jeremy hof eld taught me and it was like i am ideas. Come to me easily. My work is important and touches people. The world is better because of my work i am a source of divine creativity. It flows through me effortlessly as easily as sunlight hitting my skin. That's how where my ideas come and the day is always better that it's always better to start and that i was comparing that morning to a morning where started by watching some comedian on joe. Rogan's podcast complaining about the government being invasive with code which whether that that may or may not be a valid point but it was just such a gnarly way of starting my day. And you say as if you're not you. Why am i doing this. Of course. there's addiction going on i. I can't stand to be bored. I was just peeing. it wasn't even a pooh. It was a p video. I couldn't be still but it's conversations like this. That remind me that like to make it fun. You can say like spells are real. When i say dr dave. I hope you have a beautiful afternoon. It reminds you. It is on a very little level that the potential of a beautiful afternoon israel. It's within our grass. It's your greatest. It is like an incantation. That's exactly right. And it makes you. You're saying neuroscience is it probably makes you start thinking of what did beautiful afternoons look like in the past. How can we recreate them. What did they look like. Where you peeing looking at your phone or were you dropping anchor and going. Oh my god. I've i've had moments this week. Just because you seem like a sort of person if you can really drop into the into the moment through practice through getting that pathway nice and deep and carved the path where the present moment i can walk my daughter trying to get into sleep around the house and it looks like a dream it looks like a virtual reality immersive video game with the most impressive graphics i've ever seen. Suddenly the ordinary becomes very very very very deeply fascinating. I see you. Are we running out of time. No or not. I was actually your what you were saying reminded me. I don't think he's looking at. Because i'm pretty sure it out please. It's not robert. Frost cone right to roads diverged. The yellow would. I took the road less traveled. Yeah right. it's that idea that that there are always multiple paths and if we wanna bring breakdown simplest path that robert frost the as robert frost does right. There are always two roads one of which is the familiar road and one of which is the unfamiliar road. Travels it's your thoughts are traveling on the road. It's your neurons traveling. It's you on the road exactly and if you choose to take the road that you've traveled over and over and over again whether it's serving you or not then you are creating your reality around that practice of just following along not and not a not really questioning. Use this road. That's my pats. Is this my whereas if you stop. Stop before and saying okay. There's two pads. This is the path that always taken and ask the question. Is this pack. Getting me to where i actually want to go. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't but if it's not been the road. Less traveled certainly becomes much more interesting choice. Unless we stop at the divergence where the where the where the road diverges in yellow. Would right leslie. Actions stop at that point and ask question the opportunity to even take a different path doesn't seem to spray it doesn't it doesn't necessarily be become as noticeable in as is what the hell is. Water said the fish. You're not even aware that you're making a choice. And that is speaking of reminds me from the jesus. Tradition of wide is the path that leads to destruction. A narrow is the path that leads to life. I know a lot of people have misappropriated. I would say that into a teaching about the afterlife heaven and hell only a few people get to go to the the golden city where all the right people give each other eternal high. Fives that is such a prostitute ization of a really beautiful thing which is similar to what frosted saying which is like notice. There's a burn talker one of my favorite bands They have lyric in their song. I'll do better in the morning and it goes my brain always i- only do what i have done is one of the lyrics. I'll do better in the morning and it goes. My brain always breaks things into two. And i always pick the easy one that seems to be talking about easy. As the wide one that leads to destruction or you could say unconsciousness or just leads to doing what you've already done so when you think about a beautiful afternoon chances. Are you probably doing something you haven't done or thinking something you haven't thought and isn't that a small awakening like going like shit. I've been playing the same record every morning right. And and it's also stopping to remember that when we're seeking a beautiful afternoon for instance. It reminds us that or beautiful day or whatever it might be that were seeking. Aw right were seeking inspiration. That is packed. Inspiration the path to and inspiring moments to combine the zoo or really what we all want an what we all desire because aw is what inspires us to be not only present but to also recognize all the possibilities about what needs to be given everything that we possibly capable of that. We don't necessarily take the time to acknowledge notice on a daily basis and so failure to your previous point. Failure is not something we necessarily wanna just sign on the dotted line for every opportunity to fail. There is at least but we do want to make sure that we're not afraid of right. We wanna make sure we're approaching life in the way our lahar individual lives in a way that we know that failure like stress is inevitable. It's a part of gross. If we don't we learn some best lessons learner lives through failing or through making mistakes. The trick is to not ignore because of the shame and the guilt surrounding those mistakes or the loss that we have ingred over right. The trick is to not ignore those mistakes and the lessons. They teach us if you make a mistake at fail. Something at the very very least it is our responsibility to without shaded gills as much as possible. Look back and without judgment. Look back at that situation. Just be like oh okay. What did i do wrong here. What could i have done right. What could i change to make it. The least judgmental statement. What could i change next time. I do this to make sure that. I get the best possible outcome. That's closest to my goals and that is really what this is all about in the more that we go through that process which is a repetitive process. Ideally one that continues to evolve over time so they don't make the exact same mistakes over and over and over again that process results in getting that much closer to those awe inspiring moments. That really help us understand what we're really capable brighton. Y is really possible with this time. Where and think you into all which is you could almost grace. It's like it's something is given to you. That's bigger than you. That that you just you you appeared oxley disappear but are also very clear to yourself. I i think that's beautiful. Can you share. I bet some people are wondering what are some of these. I'm particularly interested in how to stop judging as much I'm a comedian. I make my living. Judging doesn't necessarily mean negatively judging. But i compare things and and this'll trip you out living with vow. I'm noticing how i'm sort of unconsciously or you know we're doing a consciously i guess because i'm talking about it but sort of modeling for her how to do it. Meaning i have this friend of yours I'm making these examples. But this is your joey from. That's like your dumb friend from friends. This is your phoebe. That's sort of the your ditsy friend like because that's what creative comedy people tend to do. We make archetypes. And then we just pay attention to the evidence that reinforces them So what are some of your practices that help us judge last or just some of your practices. That help you engage with your gratitude with your compassion. Some some practical steps. That people can take a great question and i think you know this is really where the and most fun. Actionable suss comes in ensue. At the risk of sounding repetitive repetition. Of course halloween one best right but the risk of sounding repetitive. I what we're talking about is that is being more press and doing everything we can to bring our cells into a more present human being kind of listening dominant state where were don't feel a responsibility to do anything. We don't feel a responsibility right shit immediately or right up received wrong situation which is in ecology or psychiatry. Often called at the writing reflects where somebody says like. They're feeling like shit you. Then you're like oh. I have an idea of how you could fix that right. That's usually not what they want. Anyone who's married knows that when your partner comes to you instead telling you how. How crappy does the that the last thing they typically want to here. Is you immediately. Try to figure out how to solve problems for. Yeah right your heart rate up. Shut the fucked up. It's not fix it. it's a feel it. Yes right and they wanna be heard right. That's what they actually want anyone who's struggling anyone suffering with us or another person they just want to be heard and they want the acknowledgement that they know that you're hearing them without waiting to seek and so and that is true presence right so the way that we do that is we. Help people recognize that our minds literally can be anywhere that could be passed. There could be in the president or they can be in future and typically for most of us in day to day productive work life. They are in the past the future. Our bodies are always press so there the both of these things are connected on. Our bodies are always in the here now so all the exercises that we do that. Are you know they have lots of names like vegas toning parasitic toning or anything. That are all meditation. Mindfulness yoga movement meditation exercise apollo soothing touch soothing. Music therapies blow tanks. The list goes on right in all of these techniques are simply put rounding the mind which could be anywhere back into the present by it. Rav rings ourselves back into our bodily awareness back into the present out of the past and future be reminders. That were safe enough to be present in that allows us to be in that sort of listening dominant presence that facilitates that non judgement. That you're talking about when we're not in the We're not thinking about the past and we can be president something then we're not judging based on past experience that's what judge realis- acknowledge it also to add that when re this is not salute gonna come automatic right. It's not going to be like. Oh i've just decided that this makes sense ought to do it. And i'm never gonna feel Never gonna judge again. It takes practice and when we start to feel that judgment coming in when we're in a presence state we've grounded ourselves done the breeding. We've done the cells touch we've gotten the hugs or turned the apollo line. Still feeling judgmental over yourself situation that creates the opportunity to draw wariness the judgment to not judge yourself for judging right and then to express gratitude for recognizing what you're doing and then to say. Thanks but no thanks. This isn't useful to me right now. And then you bring yourself again back into the president and the more that you do this more that we all do this. We literally are re-training those those old neural pathways as wide roads. Right around taking the path towards said earlier taking road that's been familiar and constantly traveled that we've been taught to follow and it's helping us recognize okay. Maybe there's certain times at this road is really useful but most of the time if actually taking away for me just being mean dealing president connected to myself on his around me and in that At the same time serves as a pathway to reinforcing sense of trust in ourselves and our mission which then sets a foundation for growth. Like re parenting. It's like reestablishing yourself as trustworthy capturing your own ship right. That's really interesting just because people hear me complaints about my dog we you said about judgment is in the past and our bodies are in the present. It's just fucking brilliant. Val talks about singing in the vegas vegas nerve right What happens in the vegas nerve. You know what i mean but if you're singing how unsafe could you be. That's one way to put it so we love. We love singing and silly singing. I've also had somebody putting your legs up on a chair and just laying on the ground puts you in your sympathetic nervous system. So there's these really basic ways but they're all just dropping in your body which is present so to give you an example of my dog. My parents fought when i was a kid so loud noises. Just not safe to me. In fact it's sort of extended to a deeper issue which we're not gonna solve today but it's the people aren't safe. I would like to point out that this fundamental core negative belief has led to a lot of beneficial. Stand up comedy television art. I'm not even my dad's text has led to a very rich lively conversation. Exit me this morning. I was sitting. And i was just thinking what. You semi whole. I'm i'm i'm better used to this ecosystem. If i'm also experiencing what they're experiencing that i might comment on the same feelings and fears and all that stuff i that's why i hate superman again mentioning superman. What use is a perfect being in less than a meteorologist. Coming towards the earth All of that is to say when. I hear my dog bark like you said. I know that i'm overreacting. And i can't just say pete. It's not your dad yelling. You know what i'm saying. But i hear a deep. It's not like a ups. It's like a deep frightening. I've never been attacked by a dog. It just reminds me of yelling by the way people's music neighbors playing music. Same sort of trigger. I don't like hearing things. It makes me feel out of control. That's why i like comedy. I am in control of the noise like making television. If you've ever been on a tv shoot you go. I don't like the sound of that in the background. Someone makes it stop. It's like a control fetishes dream. How and again not putting on you just for the sake of people listening if they simple triggers like a dog barking is there an apollo technique or is it. Just what we're saying. Just try to be present and and a dime at a time before you know it will have a one hundred dollars and i won't freak out as much my dog because we're having conversations like this so so yes and yes. I think that the first. The first thing i wanted to say is to commend. You on your personal use humor as a coping strategy. Because i want i. I think everybody needs to know they. Don't that even according to sigmund freud over a hundred years ago humor was has wasn't has been known as the most advanced human coping scratch for stress and adversely suggests. Just put that out there while heaver should humor is often demeaned but it is should not be disrespected. It is the most advanced or one of the most advanced coping strategies that we have at our disposal probably deserve more attention on a regular basis. Can i just add to that with. This is interesting if i go to an ivy league school to perform. I never think oh. I'm not smart enough to make the i feel like i feel like they will get it. You know what i mean. I feel like the intelligent people understand. We need this. We need this week. I don't know why. I mentioned that. Like i'll be intimidated talking to a super smart person unless they're paying me to make them laugh and then i'm like i don't try to up. I just go like. I know you thank you for that. That's beautiful keep going. So so yeah. So that's i think that's really important for everybody understand regarding humor and how we overcome stress. I think the other side of it is that if we don't feel safe than anything that's unseal your or anything that is happening around us that is uncertain or feels like it's out of control that is captivating or capturing our attention is going to increase or stress response if we're not feeling physically mentally emotionally even financially legally spiritually safe at baseline than anything that comes into our experience that is unpredictable uncertain or out of our control. We can tell like dog barking like somebody playing music that we can't turn down any of these things can drive a stress response And sugar are sympathetic Sympathetic fight or flight response to go up and makes our body can make our body in survivals threat state. Oh i can attest to that i. It's it's as real as no disrespect to people who really heard bombs dropping my mom dead but it feels like that serious to the end. Right right yeah. Our bodies. Don't the difference right or it's still going up pressure going up breath rambo number through the wall but not to the lizard and any starts to sweat and you start have racing thoughts in all the same things for happen because Yeah yeah there were tunnel vision right deb. Rigidity or concreteness. You described earlier. Which was really like a rigidity of thinking which is directly. I think this is really important. Also understand everyone. is that rigidity. You mentioned earlier is great. Term a concreteness that occurs the feel in those situations. Because that's exactly what's happening to our thought process. John process is becoming rigid around only really lap expecting Things are familiar approaches. And so taking on a new approach to healing or to managing stress like deep breathing or yoga or exercise or nutrition management or or any of these other things that require a decent amount of effort meditation etc. All of those things seem really really hard when you're already in a state of chronic stress or lack of safety your life that's why you go straight to the ice cream or you masturbate. Or you watch john wick or you. What if i were poured or you spend all your waking conscious time at work or having sex or gambling or games. Because it's a distraction from the that really uncomfortable feeling that all of us at falconer lives of nazione face. Who wants to feel that. It's terrible right and we get we all feel it. Sometimes every single day and without learning the strategies to coke like humor like breath work. Meditational is at the things we talked about which is most of us believe it or not or whatnot learned or mastered those techniques. That's why we did all the pollen was because there we we ask the question right. Is there a way to tap into this system. That breath activates that meditation. Mindfulness activate that soothing. Touch today's without requiring efforts significant effort or another person to be around when you're struggling with overcoming a stressful situation or any kind of challenger versity and so when we asked that question and we started to have answers. Come back which are the it. We could replicate In some ways the feeling of soothing touch with by breaking in the case of the policies in sound waves which is music composed from your skin instead of your ears than the skin will feel that that will send a signal to your emotional cortex that just like soothing touch says if you have time to be aware of this feeling right now than other vibration or the touch than you can't possibly run into a lion in this moment otherwise i your body would not allow you to pay attention to this feeling if you weren't actually running from the line and then you've got this rapid positive feedback starts to occur of. Im safe. i am states. I am safe just like what you're saying when you put your hands on your chest and or when you're getting a hug and it starts out as a sub-conscious dot loop were not necessarily aware of why we better we do. And then as time passes and we practicing than we start to realize. Oh i feel safe enough to take a deep breath right back. I feel safe enough to go for a walk right now and take myself out of this situation in a comfortable calm way or to stain the situation and engage with it. That when you're giving a talk in a social situation when you're tired or something like that that you might not have felt comfortable doing before because now you realize you're not under threat everything becomes easier right. And so it's really about using apollo helps to retrain that that loop that we all could be could know how to do and we taught if we were taught in kids it would be like second nature we were taught the opposite so now it's acknowledging that we were talking the opposite acknowledging that might not be serving introducing the tools that we can have that we have access to to be able to start helping ourselves reach rain our bodies our minds to act number one in harmony together in residence so they're working together rather than against each other and number two to remember when we're actually safe and how to remind ourselves that in any number of situations dog that we can make decisions for standpoint of strengthened safety rather than from sierra revealing. I love everything you've ever said. I'm going to go ahead and say that. And that's what that's my job is union getting the head and the body together and as you said the body is in the moment so get the head in the moment right. You're also reminding me in the first ten years. Standup talk about a fight or flight situation. You really think. I have a joke about it. I say your shoulders go up because you wanna protect your neck. You fold your arms when you do. Stand up y'all because you want to protect your stomach. These are all kill strokes. So like what before any techniques like meditation breathing. And now the apollo i would literally just say to myself You're not in any danger. Like that was the first. Ten years of standup was convincing yourself. Through repetition of doing it and surviving. No one wants to hurt you. You are safe. Just because i think i think is interesting in some like ramada or something or super eight motel and i would leave the room to go and do the college or the club or whatever it was and i'd say no matter what i promise. You'll sleep in this bed tonight. And that was that was when we say practice we think it has to be so who that was the practice was closing the door and looking at the bed and then when you come back and you are on the bed. I have to under believe you know what's happening in the brain. It's reinforcing it was like see. I told you it'd be on this bed and you are on the bed and slow you. You develop trust with yourself like you're saying there's i wouldn't make you do something that is going to hurt you and even though i know you think the crowd is going to form like voltron into one. Big thing in decapitate you. I promise you they're not going to hurt you. It's exactly really beautiful stuff. I've noticed the the thing that really made me nuts for the apollo was the first time i meditated with it and i told Some people have been contact with That i was like. I went deeper then i had been in years. I didn't realize i let's not call it a slump. That's making it into a store. And like i just went so deep. I went as deep as i did the first time. I meditated when you have that beginners lock and now that i've done it. Dozens of times with the apollo. I noticed it's actually a little bit better if it's not that i try to ignore that. There's something vibrating on my wrist. I actually try to tune into it in a very subtle way because it is subtle. So if you're like bringing your attention to the pinprick of a focus which is the subtle feeling. The thing i say in the ad. Sometimes i go. It's like i. Goes this thing meditating for me because it is going like. I'm over simplifying because it does way more than that. If you're noticing it might tone down and then maybe it comes back and it has a far greater vocabulary of vibration and say your phone does. And it's using that. But i've noticed it's not a game of trying to not think about the apollo. I actually do better if i do. Think about the apollo. I know what does it feel like and that suddenly and just to continue the compliment. When you're nervous system does go. i'm safe. You have all the tools you need to get as woo woo as you want if you wanna be a soul if you want to merge with the universe whatever you need to do the body is no longer resisting that because it feels comfortable enough three to go into outer-space if you'd like to so i was going to say the same and meditation. This way you described is actually the same as with sleep. If the idea that when we're entering into sleep or we enter into meditation it's actually somewhat vulnerable state of being in our physical bodies. We are aware of our bodies. Oftentimes some in meditation. But sometimes we're again out in space out in some other part of our consciousness and that is inherently in a lot of ways making us less aware of physical surroundings around us. While we're sleep. We were less physically aware or where the physical surroundings therefore were more physically vulnerable. Therefore if we're not safe it's very very challenging for us to let go and truly lean in fully into the experience and so it starts out with apollo as a training tool like you said where you The gentle vibrations just helped the body feel safe on the surface which allows us to let go and grounding us in our bodies it it allows us to truly lead into that experience just going because we're not worried about the unknown. We're not worried about what may come up. We're not worried about someone attacking us jumping on us. Taking advantage of because we're physically vulnerable allows us to just be an flow like water through the experience. Writing as bruce lee said water. When it's a cup it becomes the cup when it's stream becomes a stream. It's not asking you know. Oh why am i a capri you know. Instill the cup. And it's it's really interesting to think about that. And i think the other side of this is to add your point about paying attention to the feeling now in and whether or not apollo is meditating. Floor you or not. It's not meditating for you but what it is doing is through sending these you know safety signals to your brain skin. It is showing you what it feels like to be a closer to a meditative state meditative present mindful state by helping us feel safer so by helping. If we don't remember what it feels like many of us don't to actually be able to make ourselves feel safe or remind ourselves that were safe enough to fall asleep or say well and safe enough to meditate safe enough to be vulnerable and embrace vulnerability then if it's extremely challenging to enter that state. How can you do it. If you don't even remember what it feels like to be there. Put a pollen. Somebody you turn it on. They feel it. It reminds the body of familiar feeling often old feeling of. Oh this is what it feels like. If they'll say this is what it feels like to be. Present was myself into the aware of my feelings in my body and to what deals like high nose to meditate and then all of a sudden over time it it trains. Uh us to do that better at again. I will never say that. Apollo as a substitute for meditation or a substitute for Breath work or or soothing. Touch a loved one at absolutely isn't but for those of us most of us would say haven't mastered those techniques or don't have the support around us to be able to dive into those techniques whenever we need them. Apollo is tool. it just helps get. That process started began right. It's just it's just jump starting car and making sure that we know what it feels like to sleep well so that we know we can do it. We know what it feels like to meditate so that we know what we're aiming for when we sit down to do it right and and say with focus. I think this is one of the best examples of abd. Why are we surprised that there's an epidemic of adhd in our country and particularly in the western world and in adults were. We don't teach kids how to concentrate on one thing. Yeah right for extended periods of time. If you don't teach them how to concentrate. Why would you expect them to be able to do it. It's like if nobody tell you how to enjoy the beach mr leno. Why would you think but it didn't even occur to us. Most of us to go wait. No-one taught me how to enjoy the beach. It's not easy to enjoy the beach and jacuzzi to enjoy traffic. It's not an easy to enjoy waiting in line at the dmv. But you can do it. That's really interesting. So the clear in focus setting you think has potential or already is helping or could help with things like add. So i tell you that. We are currently conducting trials with apollo for eighty. Adhd because we've had tremendous results in some early clinical studies But the most common to reports that get with paulo our it helps me focus when i'm struggling to focus because i'm tired or i'm distracted or too much on whatever and it helps me sleep when i can't sleep. Those are the two biggest uses of the device and so what we saw those reports coming back from our users and of course we all use ourselves right. Our whole team uses it almost every day. Most of my colleagues seasonals every day and so we would just ask people when you talk to people. Of course they tell you. Yeah like when. I'm really tired and i can't focus at work and i have to spend albums hours doing taxes payable worker things that i am not particularly interested in but they gotta get done. I throw that clear. Focus mode on an iron in zone as and then people started with. Adhd add started telling us that they were experiencing similar benefits oomph enemies and even an even reducing their amphetamine burn. And that's when we started a think. Okay this could be a real tool here for kids. Yeah one of the things i say and i hope you hear the compliment here as i go. I don't put it on social and open. Unless i need it because it will almost if i'm already feeling stimulated it'll i don't want to say it's too much but i'll turn it off. I'll go thank you. we're good. I'm already there and i like telling people that because it's a way of saying it's no joke. It's meaning it's not just like oh. It's this is my vibrating bracelet. It's like a mood ring. It doesn't really do anything meeting once. I feel like i have blossomed. Socially i'll turn it off though it's not unpleasant or anything but it feels like real medicine. Does that make sense. Yeah absolutely and it really is. I mean you think about the power of music right that we talked about earlier that we often just take totally for granted you the having the worst day of your life and you step into your car or into a room where your favorite songs playing on speakers and all the sudden. You don't remember that you're having a sheet debt right. That is real power like that is real in. Call it medicine. You could call it a powerful tools you can call it you know neuro physiology and call whatever we want but it's very real and it's very Powerful and most of the time we are not making decisions about actively that are conscious decisions about what sounds were exposed right. There could be construction. Yard were traffic. Sounds sit on dog barking. Other people living close quarters playing music writers. All of these things that we don't have control over are sending high intensity. Sometimes signals to us were or frequencies that are literally disharmonious and discipline from the state. Were in state. We wanna be. And so why would we be surprised. That were upset when we're surrounded by unpleasant stimulant right so apollo is really our way of saying okay. We know you're going to be surrounded by unpleasant stimuli wide because all of us are throw something on you it's close to your body that counters unpleasant stimuli with something urine control of that since overwhelmingly pleasant stimuli and then let us know how your body's response that was. I think i started to give you this complement at the beginning. But i think maybe i already did. Forgive me but i was like knowing. There's something you can do is one of my favorite things about it. Meaning there's a benefit that's beyond the apollo itself and we've already talked about what an extreme benefit it is also just going like. Oh something's really freaking me out. Sorry to keep going like vallon. I would go out with my parents during the lunch at habit on meditation. Mindfulness even though my eyes were open. I just liked the way. It's sorta calm me down now. We're having a better lunch now. Everybody's benefiting and on the way home again. I don't mean to make them sound like monsters monsters. But i'm putting it on rebuild and recover just because i know it's heavy going back into something that can make you regress a little bit. You're we can all relate. I think that sure but no valid. I both in the car not talking. Just like looking at her phones going into the apollo and saying can you help. Can you help me rebe rebuild. It's like the coolest thing. And i'm so glad to be working with you and to be talking with you now before i let you go. I lied at the top. When i said i'm not gonna take too much of your time. I'm gonna take so much your time. I'm just getting we're almost. I know you love plant. Medicine psychedelics or research in that department as well and one of the things. I said to your team right when i got the apologize i was like. I can't believe i've ever taken mushrooms without at like. I feel like it would be very beneficial to when you're taking something that's sending you into outer space which is very. I'm not even talking about hugh. I don't take huge doses. Although i have but like for the most part i just want something that's saying like hey remember it's okay you're here. It's like if i were to talk you down from an overwhelming trip. I would say cliche hippie things like david. You are a citizen of this earth. You didn't come into this world. You came out of this world. You belong here. You are a dignified loved valued member of all that is and your awareness. Is your ticket to the big show. You are not loved by god. You are god's love. These are the comforting things i would say to you. Beautiful and safety. I just felt like saying it. Because i wanted to hear it. I am not just loved by god. I am made of. God's love what you were talking about the That is all around. Us is inside of us sometimes. Vallon i joke where we're like you ever freak out about that. It's it's almost like there's a there's a son there's something a million billion times stronger than the sun like in the avengers remember. Paul these character says. I have something that is me. That isn't me that i don't understand. I was like yes same vision. That's all of us. These are metaphors for the soul. But like we've been laughing. Valentine going who keep it keep it keep it in like it's going to bubble out of us that explode it's the trickiest thing in the world and psychedelics are one of the things that helped me understand it as allen once says. When does the flashlight shine on itself. When does the knife cut itself. It's like sometimes. I need help. I need a guide to go here. Let me show you that. There's something that seeing and that's who you really are. So just because i think you'll like it and i go like life will be okay. I can't speak for humanity because we could be like dinosaurs but look at what life has done since dinosaurs. It may dogs it made mammals it made ocean's teaming with all of this beautiful stuff so don't worry but here's the punchline is but you're not david and i'm not pete you're really that so you will be okay just not in the way that you might want to be. You'd like to know that you're going to be a billionaire and live in bora-bora but it's actually better than that and we call that the good news. Sorry i'm just preaching now. I like that. What is your tied to psychedelics. What do you. What do you get from them. What interests you about them. And do you see an application for the apollo for someone like me who considers it part of his religious practice. Should yeah absolutely anything. So i don't know. I am a psychiatrist and neuroscientist. I have clinical psychiatry practice called the apollo clinic where apollo was a core part of our treaty program as a noninvasive wearable tools to help improve one's sense of safety and facilitate rebuilding and remembering trust in our selves as the core of what. Healing really stems from sustainable. Long lasting feeling not. Just the feeling of oh. I took this medicine now. Healed but the feeling of being on a healing path that grows over time continuously right. That's really all looking for not a quick fix because again those don't exist so and that's freedom right rights again. Jesus said that he said pain and suffering will always be among you and of course buddhist said that life is suffering. And it's not to bum you out. It's go what what then if we're not going to get rid of it. What then what. What next right. And i think to that to that point. That's another law compensation. We can dive into. But i think one of the things that comes up a lot of the time with psychedelic. Medicines is an i think taking a step back about what these medicines are and how they work i am a trained ketamine assisted psychotherapists as a huge part of my practice. Also trained empty may assistance psychotherapist. Md a is not typically is not currently illegal is only available for clinical trials. So we're not using that in practice this time but hopefully by twenty twenty three. Y'all be and and i think that in the trials are going very well so that's all really fantastic. If i could just pay compliment. There's no one based on your temperament and you're just. Let's use the hippie weird vibe. There's no one. I would run to either of those therapies under under your supervision. I just think. That's i'm so glad you're doing that. And the work is incredible. Because i think it it in a lot of ways. The psychedelic medicine. When used in the proper way. I appreciate your kind words. When using the proper way and with the proper preparation beforehand And of course the talk therapy integration. Afterwards where we really work through what came up and talk about what hearts of this up. Someone's subconscious were experiencing and and really dive into what lessons can be learned from that Is this really tender. Vulnerable duty alias. Part of ourselves that many parts of ourselves that we have neglected for a long period of time and Sometimes it's many many years sometimes. It's not that long but ultimately it's it brings up that there are parts of ourselves draws our awareness to the fact. They're parts of ourselves. That have not themselves felt safe within us and so when we talk about like shining the spotlight back to ourselves or different parts of ourselves and you can imagine for a moment. Bet we go back what we were talking about before. Imagine that there is a way that we have been taught see the world and to see ourselves since we were brought into this war came into this world and ever since start interacting where things in this world lifetime. There were certain things that we were taught to see and and and understand this way about ourselves the world around us judgment is a perfect example of that and there were and that and that way of being that we have seen the world gets recorded if you can imagine metaphor gets recorded onto a tape and that is in our minds and it's just as the play repeat by non me entire time of our lives and it's literally just going over and over and over again same thing the same way of thinking about ourselves in same way of thinking about the world and new experiences come in and at times they force us to revise the tape but most of the time the tape is the tape and those experiences just kind of either reinforce it or get our confusing and we disregard them entire and so wet psychedelic. Medicines are doing is psyche means mind dallas needs show and so were using a biochemical tool or molecular tool to activate pathways in the brain to the chemical neurotransmitter receptor system. That just like meditation or mindfulness practices when practiced for long enough time. Allow us to shine that spotlight for a certain number of hours back onto ourselves into our subconscious. The part of ourselves that we might have only experienced in dreams when our conscious ego self. You'll safe enough to let go and kind of take a back seat and then basically pause that narrative right it's pressing pause on that tape that's been played to allow us to look deeper and see what is here. What else is going on beneath the tape right and then start to have an opportunity to the integration process of saying okay emceeing all this stuff all the interesting materials coming up song. It's scary. some of it's thrilling. Some of its extent Shame for guilty at center. Rank could be any number of things and then how to like. Take what i've learned from that material and integrated into a tape that is reflective of what my life is actually and i want to be right hot so we're revising just revising. We'll take your supervising the narrative and and we should. It's our duty. Because we are not the same day to day moment-to-moment we are changing evolving as being's right so it is. The onus is on us as individuals to constantly seek to revive that tape. Does that require second outs. Of course not but when that tape has been repeated over over and over again for sometimes decades and it's been grain really intense deep way sometimes some people throwing it a little biochemical assistant in the process with the therapy of course can radically transform people's ability to look back at that tape non-judgmental and recognize that it's just it's just able to be revised as anything else that is that is the voice of the plant medicines. It's just a tape you. I'm not like the awareness that there is a tape. The awareness that there are the two pounds. It's it's all conversation has been so moving to me. Because i think it's y consciousness meaning remaining jesus and buddha means awake jesus to the disciples stay awake. Stay alert so last thing. He says to them in the garden of stay awake. And i'm like that's the whole thing. Of course we've again. Don't get me started on how we've turned that into. I'm in and you're out and you're gonna burn and i am going to go to ambrosia town but it's it's the psychological value of staying awake and noticing that there's a tape is such a takeaway from me. I feel like i'm dna is if you've ever wished for someone from the outside to come with you to your dysfunctional thanksgiving that will stand up and say this is all a metaphor by the way what the fuck is going on here and and sort of lovingly. Turn the table over and go. What is this your all reading from a script that i wasn't handed all know your lines in your roles and you're all just parroting it back the same shit i've been to. How many thanksgivings. The same thanksgiving. And i feel like psychedelics are the spacious free outsider who's really an insider that can go like you said. Stop the tape. What's going on here. It's like by the get real mentor like the guy that's not going to let you keep smoking crack in that. Richard pryor routine. That's come on man. What what the fuck you doing like. They're going to stay on topic and you have nowhere to hide. Because it's you it's it's it's coming from inside the house and there has to be some intention involved right and ideally up facilitation of by someone who was you know we call holding space from so that you can safe within that unusual psychedelic experience. Where your cake has been pause. Because when data spas it can be a very unfamiliar using place to be for people who have never been there before right we. All of a sudden people could ask the question while my tapes. Not playing. Who emma right and so having people around who understand what the place that tape with or that narrative how to revise it thoughtfully non-judgmental way in how to love yourself for the opportunities. Created for yourself is really really important and when we don't have that or when we use psychedelic medicines as a tool for escape rather than engage with ourselves than bats when people really start to go down a slippery slope of of of potentially damaging or or harmful experiences with medicine in to that point. Actually of the leading the last question knossos. How can apollo integrate into these experiences. Yeah is that we have seen it integrate very well and this actually ties back to the quote from. I think i think boost quote that you brought up earlier. Which is that. You can't avoid pain and suffering. And i would refrain that to say you can't avoid pain. None of us can avoid pain. Pain is an integral part of all of our last. However suffering suffering is avoidable because suffering comes from resistance to what it's great if we are if we perceive ourselves of the unsaved. We were taught to not feel safe if we were taught to do things that continue this narrative or this tape of not being safe for being a victim of our own experience or not being part of the greater divinity that all actually a part of that all contributes to a sense of lack of safety which makes frayed which makes us resist. Change right resist growth and resist the unknown. That resistance literally is directly proportionate suffering ten. So what where. Apollo comes into play if it's like a a wearable token in inception the right. It's this idea that you have something with you. That ideally we teach breath work in our clinic Self touching soothing music or critical parts of psychedelic experience. But sometimes people get lost in marriage. Sometimes people really go deep and they don't remember what's Who they are. what's going on. And when they have their token apollo that they don't need to understand how to how to breathe to us. You can taxi buttons on your body and turn it back on all of a sudden. They're brought right back into their body are centered in their in their present in. They realized that they actually have control over how they feel in that moment. In effectively it restores agency by helping people feel safe with restored agency empowerment. They're empowered to release resists rain. And then when we released resistance and we realize the power we have to do that which also goes hand in hand with letting go of judging of ourselves and others and these old lessons. That aren't necessarily serving us at the same time. We embrace the opportunities to navigate around suffering rather than signing up for it. It reminds me of what you said about dreaming. That was beautiful that like when your consciousness feels safe. Enough to sort of dissolve into the unconscious and go relive a day of junior high. But everything's underwater right but it feels safe enough so it's like if you're having difficulty merging with any situation. The soothing nece helps that surrender which reduces suffering. It's really interesting. People on the spot of heard say a million. But when i get up in the middle of the night as i did last night with my baby and rock her the suffering only comes and you see your raps galleon mischievous brain doing it. If you watch. And i know you do you see it. Going wise is happening to me. It always happened. Why do i have to do this right now. And then you go. It looks for it it looks for what you have to do during the day now and it was this interview a conversation i was like i'm going to be tired for dr day. It's gonna be bad. The podcast is going to be bad. People are gonna stop listening. Like what the fuck. What is the self torture. But that's why. I sorta subscribed to the idea that the ego or the false self or whatever you wanna call it. The the mosaic. That thinks it's real the straw man of your personality and your likes and dislikes wants to be real by any means necessary including it would take you suffering as it rather than vanishing until we get better at letting it go away which again seems to be what we've been talking about this whole time. Stop the tape the tape. Isn't you question your thoughts. The thoughts aren't you what are you. I mean i have my answer. We usually and this'll be the last question because we've taken almost two hours of your time by this point. That's what we asked for. And we're grateful. Thank you. Do you have any framework of the universe had gotten a little glimpse of it. But you have any seems kind of a buddhist e leaning. Or what's what's your. What's your flavor. I say a multidisciplinary approach. I think there's so many traditions that have beauty wisdom's surrounding them. And so i tried to pick and choose the my favorite parts of each I think that. I mean. I love the buddhist traditions that we've been talking about the buddhist philosophies of life and really letting go of resistance just you know focusing on and allowing ourselves to be ourselves right to let go of of of questioning be let go of these ideas that were tie and what they mean ray about what we were taught they. They need about us and use that as an opportunity to embrace the unknown about us and get to know who we really are right. This is this life that we're in is so precious and it is so beautiful. And it has. I would say infinite. Capacity for beauty in and love and and fulfillment for all of us and we us into as individuals are these single biggest obstacle in the way of achieving that beauty and that fulfillment and that joy in in graciousness in every moment of our lives simply by denying that. We have insurance Right if we denied we have a choice. If we deny that we have power with our words and the words that we use being one of the most fundamental choices than anything we do in any given moment that we're denying our own free will and denying ability to achieve joy and filming in our lives and therefore the lives of everyone else around us naked creates resistance to create suffering and suffering is so familiar that we basically gravitated to right and so it's about understanding which is right there in front of us the power of our words in our choices and saying i want that power. I want that responsibility. I want to know that. I can change my life with my decisions and my thought process in my choices and bad could not be more. I guess you know. Healing and empowering ben. Any what is more powerful than ben knowing that shouli knowing in your heart and seeing the outcomes as he practices right as in practice gratitude feeling more gracious because you get gratitude back when you put it out and then you feel like you're able to live more of grace that's smooth less resistance less suffering because you have spent so much effort being gracious i ate and everything just seems to flow from there beautiful i so there's a franciscan friars like a father tomase. My spiritual father and his name is richard. Roy and i sent him an apollo. I mean i've bought so many. I think i've broken even just getting. I just keep getting gifting them because as we're talking who doesn't want this but i was like i want to see what happens if richard rohr has an apollo and just to echo what you just said when i hang out with him. The way that he talks to people is first of all. It's imitable me and it's gorgeous. So what he would say to. You is just like look at you caring about others and imagining what it might be like to be stressed and helping alleviate that stress but he doesn't everybody we're at a hotel and he was like every time i stay here. You're always here in the lobby. Helping people feel welcome always with that smile on your face. And he's an old man it he gets away with it more than. Maybe if i did it. 'cause that's like a trope that we're comfortable with the kind old man but i've done that for my nanny. I'll just go lucky. You caring for our baby. As if she is your own driving her putting her in a car seat feeding her. Thank you so much. What a huge heart. You must have just saying like md. You might say it just saying a big truth. It melts people's hearts. I'm just trying to echo. You said like we have so much for agency not just to control our own lives but to literally bless other people's lives and it doesn't take any effort or barely any effort. What did that make you think of. I saw you going all over. I actually on your own for the last one seconds hilarious trying to get it to restart and what's going on. Just cut out all you need to know. Is i agree with what you just said. And not only. Can we impact ourselves but we can impact one another. And i think that's what we've done with this conversation and man. I'm excited to know you dr. Dave thank you for taking the time likewise my pleasure. Thanks much and thanks for making this. What i'll say at the beginning but it's apollo neuro dot com slash weird is For ten percent off. And i've been sending everybody there because people ask what it is and i can't wait to tell them so happy for everything you're doing and i hope we get to meet in real life one day likewise. Wait thanks man. Would you say we have the guests sign off It's just a way to be. I guess inclusive would you say the catchphrase which is keep it crispy. And that's how we'll say goodbye keeping crispy thanks crispy.

dr dave dr david dr david rabin Dr david apollo neuroscience rabin katie dr raymond rabin katie Dr dave john wick frank phil collins eker baron tara
Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

5:01:00 hr | 1 year ago

Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

"Network Broadcasting. Live to be welcome to Cavins Barber shop. You all this want know what you're looking at on that phone will you shoot? I was learning about the dangers of high blood pressure and that we need to get our check regularly. High blood pressure can increase the risk of heart attack or stroke but his ex program can help. Keep it at a healthy range. Just text barbershop to nine. Seven seven seven nine. Sign up with this baby. Panda video barbershop to nine. Seven seven seven nine a message from the American Heart Association and the Ad Council. It's important to plan ahead for emergencies like the storm. When it kicked in we had a laminated. We were able to get grudge with each other and know how to find each other. The whole experience was frightening ten hours of my life. If there's one piece of advice I'd offer other moms out there. It's to stay calm to some parents plan ahead some. Don't make sure you know where to find your family in an emergency. Start Your Planet. Ready Dot Gov brought to you by FEMA and the Ad Council. This new show called. Nhl HAT-TRICK TRIVIA. It's hosted by PK's Sabban with the devils now but does it out of his home in L. A. and they do it on the NHL Nhl. Facebook page their youtube page. Any brings another player and they just have a little trivia contest. I don't know that might seem like a safer bet to do. Nobody gets fired that way. NASCAR yeah. I guess it would be the more preferred way to go. But it's funny. How the late. You're trying to do something to keep people occupied I sorta like. Mlb networks doing. There's not a lot of old games. And then we have the two world series on the other night we had the seventy five world series on seventy eight world series guys like me. Who are dodger haters? I didn't mind seeing a game. Three of seventy eight. That was a great nettles game at the Yankees over and over again. The dodgers never win. It's like watching that game so I think creative thinking to an NHL networker shirts gradients in the past two. And I think that's that's a good way to go for people to keep watching still watch games and if you know the score somebody came to good enough. You know watching him again. You know. We got news yesterday. Just as a as a vegas question that even. I guess in the state of Nevada construction is considered a necessary job so it continues but of course you need a lot of other people participating so that the construction of allegiance stadium might not be ready and they're talking about other places to go. Obviously mark has never gonNA show his face in Oakland again but they're talking about maybe playing in Phoenix and Glendale where the cardinals play. Maybe in Salt Lake City Where the youths play The these different venues that they could have and then of course San Diego which of course would be sacrilege. Just as as an update. Nfl Wise. What do you think's GonNa Happen with that stadium? And what the raiders. This fall. Well that's a good question Rick and all of a sudden they're starting to talk about it here Because there were some they they did have some corona Related Shutdowns at the at the construction site there. And you're right the suppliers coming in to get them ready. It looked to me like they were going to be tight to make the the stadium ready. It was supposed to be late. July soccer three Madrid. Or somebody supposed to come over here to open up the stadium that way But this this is this is tight. It was a tight timeframe anyway. So you know I. I've been thinking about that too. They haven't been talking about it. Too Much Vegas but Now all of a sudden it's being whispered this. They might not be ready. Unlv can just go back to Sam Boyd Stadium. I did see that the other day still there so I guess you could still use it and they still own that one. But the raiders. I don't know I mean maybe they. Maybe they used CENEX. I Dunno San Diego would work I guess mark can't go back to Oakland you're right Or Salt Lake but it's interesting. We'll see how the NFL schedule which is supposed to come out the second week in. May How they comedy for some of this stuff but I think they gotta start thinking and I. I guess the Rams Charger Stadium Is could have some of the same issues. There might be a little bit. Further along than the Raiders Stadium. We'll see you think in ten years that Vegas will have all four big league and allow NBA in. Mlb there as well. I also ball I know the NBA NBA does a lot with Vegas anyway with the Summer League But that would seem possible to baseball and They would have to build a stadium another stadium with a rolling roof on it Because of the summer like they do in Phoenix. But I I it's it's possible. I think it's unlikely they have all four. I guess between NBA and Major League Baseball NBA might be more likely to show up here than baseball But it's possible. Yeah have you been doing aviators game the new park? I have not but I have been to right by where the park is. And it is adjacent to the Golden Knights facility which was right next to a really nice shopping while they're in Henderson. All Brand New Henderson. Sorry Summerlin. Beautiful Place I I don't know if that would be an expandable place to a big stadium or not there but it for a minor league park. It's awfully nice and it's it was new last year so I mean they they've been thinking about it I mean they've they've upgraded at least minor but to bring a major league team here. That'd be a pretty big jump but yeah it's very nice minor league park. Yeah Yeah that neighborhood cashman and is and is not the greatest but anyway finally the Gold Sheet Gold? See Dot com. What's going on buddy where I'm putting some stuff out there? A lot of best goal cheech and what we do have. Nfl draft coming up and did my NFL draft preview. There they kinda previewed the first round how I saw it going as of whatever they put it up there last week. Now there'd be some trades and things coming up before the draft but I went through a team by team and what they've been doing in the offseason thus far and then kind of offering my staff that WHO's these teams might take in the first round but it's a pretty good reading it kind of gives you what the teams have been doing in the off season which I think is more interesting anyway. That's up there. Gold SHEET DOT COM. No picks yet. But you can read some of my stuff at our website goal dot com. Yes drafts is just nine days away. There is Bruce Marshall Goldsmith dot com. Bruce thanks for your insights buddied. Stay safe we'll see next week. Have a good week. Rick thanks at number two. The we'll take a break here and come on back on byline Attention to anyone. That's written a book a wants to write a book the processes not that complicated take a first step. Even if you write a page today you build momentum and your book will become a reality. The hard part is getting it published. That's when you need to call page publishing. They've got hundreds and hundreds of thank yous from different new authors. Just like you they make the process of publishing your new book and getting it sold online a simple process. You can learn how simple it is right now by calling for your free page publishing new author Submission Kit. One Quick. Three minute phone call. That's all it takes to get free information and learn how you can get your book published. Pick up your phone right now and call us twenty four hours a day at this number eight hundred six zero three eight eight five eight hundred six zero three eight five eight hundred six. Oh Three Oh eight eight five. That's eight hundred six three. Oh eight eight five. Imagine this is your money and someone wants to take it from you. Who is the IRS? They want your money and guess what they can legally take it all of it if they want remember. They sent you that letter that said. Hey you always a bunch of cash and we're going to take it from you. So what do you do fight back? By letting our team of experts at that tax helpline work it out with the IRS. So you can keep your money and we're good at what we do. When you hire us you get a team of guys on your side. No the IRS laws and will fight to save your money so if you owe the irs a ton of cash and you WANNA keep it call right now and learn for free how we can help you. Put it back in your pocket. Eight hundred nine three two one seven four nine eight hundred nine three two one seven four nine eight hundred nine three two one seven four nine. That's eight hundred nine three to seventeen forty nine if you or a loved. One is suffering from a physical or emotional condition that has left you unable to work then. Listen carefully take this number down. Eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one. That's eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one. When you call you'll speak with a social security disability expert and get free evaluation to see if you may qualify for disability insurance benefits from the government. That's right a monthly cash payment paid directly to you from the Social Security Administration whether you're applying for the first time or you've already been denied disability benefits call now the disability attorneys at Pinnacle Disability can help you build your case file an appeal and represent you at no upfront cost to you. Don't wait another minute to see if you may qualify for your Social Security Disability Benefits called Pinnacle Disability Group at eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one for your free case evaluation. That's eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one call now. I joined the army because my father and my brother were in the army. I thought I'd better join before. I got drafted son love. There ain't no drafting a war through do Rick tittle always goes commando. Thank you for that and welcome back to the show emails Rick at Sports BYLINE DOT com. Have email here from Chrissy. Saying Rick is your favorite astronomer copernicus. Well Copernicus was the guy who in the fourteen hundred said that I think we go around the sun. I don't think the sun goes around US although ARISTARCHOS IN BC TIMES. He came up with the same thing. But I think they came up with independently of each other but I liked VESTA. Slifer does because that's one of my favorite names. I always thought it'd be a great name for a band. Franz Ferdinand the archduke they just call the ban Franz Vesta slifer who spent his entire life entire professional life at the Lowell Observatory in Flagstaff Arizona. Where he's buried and he was the first astronomer to discover distant galaxies in the way I forgot what he did. I just remember his name. Vesta slifer S. L. I. P. H. R. Mr Flagstaff himself. Another hour of great astronomers. We'll also talk to us and Morehead about his new book. Young guns I'm rectal come on. You're listening to the heartland newsfeed radio network broadcasting live for seven hundred by newsbeat. This stream is supported by advertises and contributions by follow us on facebook twitter and instagram. You Service daily newscasts for April fourteenth. Twenty twenty I'm Mike Clifford. Cnn size it up this way. A grievance fueled appearance to the White House that featured a propaganda like video. President Trump said was produced by his aides. The appearance only affirm the impression that some of trump's chief concerns amid the global public health disaster are how his performance is viewed in the media. And whether it's being fairly judged CNN notes after the video aired trump grew increasingly irate as reporters probed the time line of his responses claiming criticism was not fair and he handled the outbreak effectively. Everything we did was right. Trump said according to the CNN press later about his authority to reopen parts of the country trump delivered an eyebrow raising statement asserting absolute control of the country when somebody is president of the United States. Trump said you're thorny is total the issue of childcare is at the forefront of the Cova nineteen pandemic that as he such a workers continue to search for options following schools and childcare closures. Many hospitals have even stepped in to help their employees. Find Child Care Tara. Pruitt is a registered nurse who works at a hospital in Rockingham County. Her husband also is an essential worker. Her daughter's child care center is a short drive from her employer but has shut its doors. Pruitt says individual providers at the center have offered to watch her child in their homes and members of her church have also offered to help one of the behind the scene jobs. That people aren't thankful enough for. I don't believe until you if you're put into a A position where you might not have them. The State Department of Health and Human Services has said it will temporarily pay bonuses to full time employees that provide care for children of essential workers who have no other safe options. I'm nutty aroma. Gone and as householder trying to stock UP ON SHELF STABLE FOODS. Greenpeace investigation finds potential links between a major brand of tuna modern slavery and illegal fishing practices in January Fong Chung Formosa or fcf one of the world's top tuna traitors acquired bumblebee the largest canned seafood company in North America according to Andy Chen with the greenpace global tuna campaign. Fcf has failed to address. Systemic issues in its supply chain including forced labor and illegal fishing that has closely too many problematic fishing companies therefore is incredibly high risk of tainted tuna entering into our markets in our homes through. Komo be tuna. Bumblebee seafood says third party. Auditors Monitor it suppliers facilities for Labor violations and it remains committed to expanding social accountability to fishing vessels. I'm Andrea Sears. Reporting this is pianist as Iowa and other states braced for more flooding this spring along the Upper Mississippi River new new report highlights the continued threat facing the waterway. More from our Mike Moen each spring. The Environmental Group American Rivers Releases Its endangered rivers report and this year the Upper Mississippi tops. The list the report cites the effects of climate change and inadequate flood. Plain management is key factors driving ongoing flooding problems for the river. Nate Young of the Iowa Flood Center says there needs to be a stronger commitment from policy makers to invest in strategies to mitigate the cycle of rising water levels we invest a lot of money and responding to floods and and not enough and trying to get mitigate the risk Before the event happens there was record flooding along the Upper Mississippi last year earlier this year government forecasters had predicted major flooding for certain sections of the river. While some of the projections for the spring have been dialed back. Advocates say the annual threat won't go away without comprehensive action. The report says vulnerable communities need to have a voice in the decision making process when the country recovers from the economic toll caused by the pandemic major infrastructure. Upgrades will be needed. That will modernize flood protection along the river and also put people back to work. Nebraska's overcrowded presents could be putting their incarcerated residents at greater risk of an outbreak of cove in nineteen a coalition of legal groups. Want the state to sheriff's plans for keeping people serving time prison workers and their families. Safe Adam simple with the ACLU of Nebraska says many prisons are operating at two hundred percent of capacity and one facility has three times as many people as it was designed to house in some facilities more than fifty people are confined in spaces designed for sixteen. We're getting reports. That four inmates are being housed in a seven foot by fifteen foot. So with two sets of bunks and four lockers and at the cell is so crowded that only one person can move at a time three juveniles at a facility in Kearney have covert nineteen along with six. Staffers Simple says the number of adult cases is unknown because of lack of testing the Nebraska Department of Correctional Services says it's following CDC guidelines on hygiene and governor. Pete Ricketts has argued that releasing inmates early could pose a public safety risk. I'm Eric Galapagos. Us District Court set to be today by phone for a status hearing on an emergency motion. Follow last week requested. The court require the state's corrections agency to provide a plan for prevention management and treatment of Calvin Nineteen again a reminder that six feet of separation is saving lives. I'm Mike Clifford for public news service. We are member listener supported and online at public news service DOT. Org Gosh fine. Bacterial brings home the Bacon rising up in a pan and then he eats it. Ricky in the his official is not. Thank you for that. I welcome back to the show rectal with you. Coast to coast and around the world on American forces. We still have another hour together. And it's great that you are with us. Hope you're having a good day so far actually starting to get a little bit of good weather out here and San Francisco Bay area but I know a lot of you are still snowed in. It's a big country with a lot of different weather features. No doubt but Always it's sunny in the sunshine on sports right right We might remember yesterday. We were talking about. How Kyle Larson? The NASCAR STAR driver was suspended by chip GANASSI RACING NASCAR for dropping an N. word during that Twitch livestream Well just in the last Couple OF HOURS. He's now been fired. The quote is after much consideration. Chip Ganassi racing has determined that it will end its relationship with driver. Kyle Larson as we said before. The comments kyle made were both offensive and unacceptable especially given the values of our organization as we continue to evaluate the situation with all the relevant parties. It became obvious that this was the only at appropriate course of action to take. We already saw what Nascar said they've suspended him without pay and then Larson was also informed this that three of his major sponsors have dropped him one of them. No one big just Chevrolet. Mcdonald's and capital one bank Larson said I just want to say. I'm sorry I made a mistake. I said the word that should never be said. There's no excuse for that. I wasn't raised that way. Let's just an awful thing to say. I feel very sorry for my family. Friends Partners Nascar community and especially the African American community. Remember this is a guy who's half Japanese participated in the drive for diversity program so it's unfortunate but he knows that you can't say that and expect to keep employment you just can't so now. What team picks them up? I mean his career over his career might be over. Maybe you're saying good. Come on back when you need. Auto PARTS REILLY AUTO DOT COM is just a few clicks away. We offer convenient options for you to get your parts quickly. Order online pickup. Free at your local O'Reilly auto parts or you can have your parts delivered right to your door with free shipping on most orders over thirty five dollars visible reilly auto dot com auto parts bought a fly somewhere looking for cheap flights or cheap tickets. Then call that's right call. The low cost airline travel hotline now for prices so low. We can't publish them anywhere. Low Cost Airlines has all kinds of cheap travel deals fly domestically and save up to seventy five percents. You can even fly internationally and save even more. Yes fly anywhere in the world and save a lot of money on your plane tickets. We'll even save you money with cheap travel. Deals on hotels. Rental cars even complete travel packages. So don't book your tickets until you call us first for the absolute cheapest prices on US and international airline tickets and hotel call right now for prices so low. They can't be published travel. Experts are here twenty four seven tale eight hundred seven five four four five three one. Eight hundred seven five four four five three one eight hundred seven five four four five three one. That's eight hundred seven. Five four forty five thirty one at twenty eight. I'd struggle with opiate addiction for twelve years. I didn't said things that the sober me narrow would have done. One day. I realized I was not invincible. Was Not exempt. And that's when a friend told me about elite Rehab policemen. They gave me the tools I needed to get sober and all it took was one phone. Call Elite Rehab can help you start to break your addiction problem and get sober in as little as seven days and we'll work with your insurance provider to help cover the costs. Plus we have traveled assistance programs to get you here by playing or train. Make this free call right now to learn more eight hundred four zero three five nine one to eight hundred four zero three five nine one to eight hundred four zero three five nine one two. That's eight hundred four zero three fifty nine twelve. Your Business ideas need room to run wild. But there's no room for error when you're raising the bar. Reliable partner can make a real difference. That's the role of a realtor. An irreplaceable expert. Who Represents your values reassuring? Voice of reason copy research and reach the right decisions. You can run your business without running. The risk is your age. Realtor look video. Realtors are members of the National Association of Realtors. That's who we are leading sports with ric tiddle. Tiddle isn't genius the best show ever. He's so wonderful genius. He's so wonderful. Sports with Rick tittle. Tattle is key so handsome dis genius. Thank you for that. Welcome back to this Shell and We have an author coming up And about a half hour but until then the lines are open free and clear at one eight hundred eight seven play the progressive guests Langata quote on progressive DOT com. Today we're just talking marsh about the NFL draft. Yes the first round will be Thursday next week and it's going to have a different feel to it. Obviously with the pandemic shutting everything down one aspect that won't change is that the commission will announce the first round picks I think Roger. Goodell is a giant syncophantic Puppet Clown But he still is the commissioner and Peter King on NBC. Let it be known that Goodell will announce the first round picks from his basement and Goodell will have an income in home Camera and He lives in Bronxville New York. Now we always talk about basement bloggers and living on your mom's couch and smoking a Bong and all that now you can have a joke at that if you want. Here's the thing what. Roger Goodell calls his basement is I'm sure is not what you were an I call our basement. It's sort of like in England. I always called her backyard the garden and it's usually like a upside-down barbecue and some junk in about five square feet of space. It's not exactly garden but anyway turning it around Not really a basement but king also reported that during each pick. A virtual montage of fifteen fans of the team on the clock will be the backdrop behind Goodell. And those fans reacting to the commissioner and whoever the team picks. Now that's creative. I like that somebody at the offices in Manhattan. Try to spice things up. That's a good deal and I don't know if it's GONNA be actual video fans or if it's just going to be you know Avatars or you know animated but it's an interesting twist as we know The thing I want to know is going to be on. Espn NFL network. They say it's a co-production so I guess we're GonNa see the same thing on both networks before of course you don't get the same thing and ESPN. I think does better coverage because they have mel kiper and Todd mcshay and all that then and a as I showed highlights But a lot of times I switch back and forth. I think rich. Eisen is just the cure fronts omnia boring but the NFL network doesn't get hung up on a lot of the interviews too much. I think as much as ESPN because a lot of times they'll be interviewing somebody and the other picks almost going on at least when you get into the later rounds. I guess you won't be able to switch back and forth so some other tidbits of the draft revealed by King is that the draftees of course will be in their home and they have a limit of six people in picture who's to know what's behind the Dak Prescott Party going six people in the picture and cameras more about that. In a second the cameras will be sent to the homes of fifty eight prospects. Here's the thing where's my camera? We didn't send you one but my agent says I'm going to be first or second round. Pick Yeah you might. WanNa talk to your agent about that so. I'm not getting a camera but then again I'm sure one of the cameras is going to go to somebody who's going to sit and sit. Aaron Rodgers Brady Quinn. Gino Smith. Gino Smith left fired his agent and then came back to the green room next day. You said it was going to be a first round pick. Well you're fired. I actually liked that not that I like getting fired but a lot of times they blow smoke up their behinds. I remember the kid says name. Ike Davis Gray or something. He was the CAL quarterback when I went down and I saw calendar is on a state at ten P. He was the quarterback of the time. The giants made them I think a third round pick and he was gonNA backup ally and that plan out the window but he did a tour and he came to my other job at the time and the agent was saying we all know he's going to be a first round pick and I'm like why are you telling him that. I this isn't even what I do. Twenty four seven and I know for fact. Look at the quarterbacks in the draft look at the needs there's no way has just now people probably say that about Kenny. O'brien at Davis to but there was just no way and so- Gina Smith was told the same thing. You're the top quarterback in the draft and I think. Ej Manuel was the only quarterback taken in the first round. That year you talk about us will ever be a worse round of quarterbacks in the history of the draft if you told me. Is it possible to only have one quarterback in the first round I would have said no? That's not possible. Not that drafts are fraught and rife with great talent at the QB position but people will stress. There's always a guy like Jordan love. He might suck. He's a Utah State guy but the talent is there. The body frame is there. Someone will take a chance. You know. It's just the Josh Rosen. Josh someone's going to take a chance. E. J. Manual the only first round quarterback and he stunk he stunk. So it's That was an anomaly. I don't know maybe we'll get a draft where there is none who's to say but Six people and the picture to the fifty eight prospects who do get a camera the time needed to select picks will remain the same next Thursday night in primetime ten minutes around one the Cincinnati bengals are now on the clock they pass Nella. Take Judge Joe Borough seven minutes which is too long in rounds two and three and then five minutes four through seven. It is an improvement. Though rounds one round one used to be fifteen minutes around to Tan. Harasser all five. But there's going to be an interesting way for the teams to make Hicks throughout these three days. Each team has a designated drafter. That drafter will be logged on to the League's Microsoft teams private and encrypted draft channel. And they'll make the pick through that portal but remember it was John Harbaugh head coach of the Ravens. Who said I don't like this? Someone's going to get into our database well for the draft anyway. I'm sure there are hackers right now in Bosnia. Laughing and spitting out there Borscht. And they're pickled herring thinking about who? Microsoft teams encrypted draft channel. So who knows? And why would you do it anyway? I guess he would do it. If I was a prankster and a lawless cad I would go in and I would have the Denver Broncos now select Dick Hurts. You know I would do that. Because I hate the broncos and everybody get a laughing you go Bob Ui and blame it on Howard Stern but for the backup plan. If this doesn't work there is a special phone number to the NFL's Vice President of player personnel. And yes they have a vice president of player personnel. But it's not. We think that we don't have those guys who evaluate and draft anyway. His name. Is Ken Fiore. And so you're on the website. You're on the website up it's been hacked from Russia and everybody's drafting Phil mccracken. You can call Ken `Fiori on a line. And then there is a muted conference call where the club can UN mute their line and then announce their selection that way so there's three ways they've got plan B. and Plan C. You'll have the backup number. You'll have the conference call which be going on. And you'll have the designated drafter your DVD on the website so some NFL teams have planned to work out the remote draft but the League has a good plan and how these the selections will work and It's going to be interesting like we watched. Snl accept this will be live. That's an all that whole webcam thing was not live. I'm rick it'll come on back on. Sports violence are you paying too much for Term Life Insurance? There's a tremendous price war among the major term life. Companies rates have dropped dramatically in the past two years for example. A man aged forty five non-tobacco user one million dollars of coverage is only seventy five dollars per month level for the next ten years or manage fifty non-tobacco user can buy a half million dollars of coverage for a monthly premium of only one hundred and ten dollars guaranteed not to change for the next twenty years that's right level rates for twenty years and if you're a smoker we have great rates for you as well at the term lifeline. We specialize in policies of a half million dollars and above. So if you're looking for new or replacement term life insurance call right now for a free quote rates and availability may vary by state sample Rick preferred non-tobacco underwriting exam required to qualify eight hundred eight zero seven nine thousand nine hundred eighty one eight hundred eight. Zero Seven Nineteen eighty-one. That's eight hundred eight zero seven nineteen eighty one. Hi Dr Robert Clapper Chief of Orthopedic Surgery at Cedars Sinai Medical Group in Los Angeles California dedicated to your health. Your life and your sports as a weekend warrior you know about sports injuries and pain exercises an important element in keeping your body's core in good shape to minimize sports injuries. But when you are in pain there is one product that I recommend to my patients and that is Blue Gel. Blue consists of a proprietary formula developed specifically for the treatment of inflammation and general muscle aches and strains I recommend blue for my patients coping with hip and knee pain before surgery especially bursitis and tendinitis give blue. Go Try Call. One eight eight eight three three zero zero one two three and you'll receive a one week supply of blue absolutely free. The makers of blue or even paying the shipping. The number again is one eight three three zero zero one two three if you want more information on Blue Goo visit online at. Www DOT DU dot com now available at select the big five stores near you. Pay Less for Craft Matic today than we did twenty years ago. If you're still searching for the perfect solution to a good night's sleep call now for prices and free information on. Today's craft matic adjustable beds. And then decide when you see how little they cost rating number one by consumers nationwide on consumer affairs dot. Com Craft Matic. That's all mattress types including cooled gel memory foam for up to fifty percent less than today's leading memory. Foam brand enjoy temporary relief of low back pain. Poor circulation nighttime heartburn mild arthritis. You'll sleep better in a craft back adjustable beds so if you're still searching for the perfect solution to a good night's sleep call now for prices and information and then decide when you see how little they cost discussed craft for less up to fifty percent less than today's leading memory foam brand call one eight hundred three seven hundred ninety six. Oh Eight. That's one eight hundred three seven one ninety-six. Oh eight call one eight hundred three seven one ninety six. Oh eight call now. What kind of music do you usually have here? Oh we got both hands. We got country and Western Rick tittle eight two hundred chicken wings at Yo Mama's house last night now back to fat boy that is so messed up stuff and it hurts my feelings. I'm going to have a good cry right now. Coming up in the next segment. We'RE GONNA have author Austin Moorhead with us. The book young guns Nelia list of is the Astra's how's that for a segue? They won twenty seventeen world series. We all watched it. It happened. Some people want an asterix next to that title or they WANNA title vacated due to Signs Stealing Gate. I won't be holding my breath. Time has passed but on the flip side of that the Astros of course they got their rings Mike Fires Whistle blower the little engine that squealed today to. He's got his but one member. One member of the Astros Organization is either down on their luck or they can't handle the shame because it's going on auction site. Golden auctions golden. Go L. D. I N. Golden says this about it quote presented his Johnston's ten K GOLD TWO THOUSAND SEVENTEEN HOUSTON. Astros will says ring featuring an intricately designed face which displays team logo the H. Credit from diamonds. The style outlined in yellow gold set with custom caught own sapphires and surrounded by blue sapphires. Additional diamond surround the Lego and on the top one side of the ring is centered by. The Commissioner's trophy in yellow gold. Set with one diamond in the center. The trophy is rising from image of minute maid Park Houston strong pissed the very top just above the twenty seventeen which is set with diamonds. The Roman numeral L I appears to the right a Houston skyline highlight the other side under the name. Brito a stadium facade. An outline of the State of Texas appear below earned history appears on the back of the band so I assume auction houses are one of two. You have Christie's which is a court nine. Hey we have a painting by Vincent Van. Gaal or you had the other type of auction here that I found out about it or did I hear one one that US hold American hog five score a hog. Well this is obviously a ring that belonged to a guy named Brio and it was David Brito who was a former astros scout and right now the top bid was six thousand five hundred dollars. There's more than a month of this to go down but if you're an astros fan and you wanna piece of history. That's what's so funny earned history. Can you ever think of a more ironic thing to put on a ring where you cheated to get it? Earned History Smith bonding. They make money fashioned way John Houseman. They had earned history. I don't think so but the sad thing is. Is that the rings that the team gets the players are worth about thirty thousand dollars but the staff the front office staff and the scouts. Their rings are worth about five grand. It's just even though they look exactly the same. It's just something to do with the quality of the diamonds. Or what have you same size and if you don't have that little you know Adam Sandler Little Ip. You're not going to be able to tell so. Is that sad one? Eight seven eight plate now. Speaking of cheaters cheaters. We want to cheat or not a belly eater. What about them? Red Sox Manford said blinded by the light wrapped up like a Douche and other runner in the night and he also said Oh. We've got the findings in. Yeah let you know later. It's like that Brian Regan. Pit moved into new house and he called the phone company. And he's like yeah. I just moved to a new house. I need a phone. Can you send somebody out and the phone company said? Oh we don't do that anymore. We just flip a switch hair just happens instantaneously and he goes. Oh good Do you think you could flip the switch? I we'll do it next Thursday. Okay so it's been on the back burner doing to corona virus obviously in MLB shutdown. The findings are in It's already cost of course Cora has job as a manager at a cost. Carlos Beltran's job as a former astro. Who was going to be the mets manager but on that front the world series. Mvp of two thousand eighteen. You remember who it was Steve Pearce. He had a couple of interesting things to say on Boston. Radio Station W. Why Now? This is a guy who's thirty seven years old. He played parts of thirteen years in the majors but he basically said the allegations were a joke. In his team's going to be vindicated. He said that's such a joke to us when it came out we were all kind of joking about it. We just want this to pass us. We want it fair and square. Whatever they accused us of. We're all Kinda like I can't believe this is even an issue. Once the report comes out. We're all GONNA be free. You don't like it especially that we were the champions and individually. I have that award and we have this floating over our head. When we just had an unbelievable season we had the perfect team and grey camaraderie with everybody and this gets thrown out here or just like what the Heck. We just want this to pass us. We just want to play some baseball. Another bump in the road I guess and they said a bump in the road and Alex Cora is not having job by the way pierce. He retired because he can't get a job last season. He hit one eighty as a thirty six year old and no one signed him and fair enough. That's a great career and I don't blame him. I'll I would play until they said we want you anymore. But when you're thirty six years old and you hit one eighty but he played for the bucks. The Orioles the socks the Jays the raise the Yanks and the Astros. Yes he played for the entire L. East a respectable career. Seven hundred sixty six games. You think it'd be more but as I said he wasn't always a full-time guy but he hit two fifty. Four five hundred seventy two hits one hundred thirty one doubles ninety-one homers three hundred three RBI's and two hundred ninety home runs. If you can play over a decade and hit two fifty you have had a respectable career. I have proclaimed KIEF. He'll be most remembered though for the world series. Mvp and it was kind of a weird MVP because he only had four hits in the world series but three of those four hits when out of the park and he had eight Rbi and he also walked four times he never struck out and he scored five runs. And if you're going to clinch in game five which they did in every series and the playoffs I lost one game if you're GONNA clench in game five and hit two home runs in that game you're going to be the MVP which he was so interesting though because the astros remember they said we didn't. We didn't cheat cheat cheat in there like I would like to read a statement written by my agent and my lawyers. Sorry we cheated. Why so I have not heard one red sox come out yet and say anything and why would they all right one other thing speaking of Boston? big PAPI. David Ortiz is trying to do it. He can't give back to those on the front line of The cove in nineteen Doctors nurses other medical professionals. We know they risk their lives every day and RT's wanted to know how thankful he is and so he hopped on the show. Some good news with John Krasinski. Who is Jim in the office? And who every time. I see an ad for that Jack Ryan Amazon show. I just laugh when I see him trying to look tough with his eyebrows. Raised its Jim. I'm sorry I can't get a good show. I tried season one. I tried and I just kept laughing every time. He was acting tough with a gun. I can't get past the fact. It's like Dwight Shrewd can't get past. He's tried remember. They did a school of rock. Rip Off with him but then he went on John Krzyzewski show and he told the professionals. At Boston's Beth Israel deaconess medical center that the Red Sox are donating four tickets for life to everyone at the hospital. So they'll just have four season tickets forever. Which is pretty cool. And Our T. says I got to tell you the very bottom of my heart how much I love you and respect you for what you guys are doing taking your lives taking your time. That's something that goes beyond everything so the Red Sox are gonNA donate four tickets to lie for you and everyone at Beth Israel and Krinsky said I might be able to get big PAPI on my show but I'm not going to get the big PAPI treatment. And he said. Don't worry buddy I got you too. I can tell you that John. Kuczynski does not need free tickets and emily blunt some cash. Come on back. Aw and now a page from the diary of Flo Dear Diary. The ghost is back. This House is protected through progressive. But that doesn't mean haunted. How else would you explain that radiator like clanking sound or the moon colored light in the hallway? That's gone by morning. Maybe he never bundled home and auto and he's doomed to suffer an eternity without the savings. Save an average of seventeen percents on car insurance when you bundle home and auto through progressive. What was Oh right. The Wind Progressive Casualty. Insurance Company and affiliates discounts not available in all states or situations. It has been said that everyone has a book in them. But we have the time or the ability to write your book. Maybe you picked up some skills or headlight. Experience that you want to pass on in the form of a book to help others. Maybe you WANNA leave an autobiography for your family. Or maybe you built a successful business and you want to share your story at Dorrance Publishing Company. We HAVE PROFESSIONAL WRITERS. Who can help? Turn Your Book. Idea into a finished manuscript quickly and affordably a dorrance ghost rider can provide as much or as little as you need to complete your book. You'll work directly with your ghost rider to finish your book faster than you ever could on your own. It's easy to become a published author called Orange. Now to learn more eight hundred four eight five six zero zero three eight hundred four eight five six zero zero three eight hundred four eight five six zero zero three call right now. Number is eight hundred four eight five six thousand three travelers. Do you want to save money on your next flight? Then pick up the phone and call. That's right call because the best prices are not online. They're with smartfares. See smartfares has special deals with the airlines. When they have unsold seats they use smartfares to fill them. So you get airline tickets at ridiculously low prices. Our prices are to low to publish online with the extra money. You'll save. You can book another trip for treat yourself to dinner or shop. Ic So stop searching all of those travel sites to find the lowest price on your next flight. Let one of our smartfares expert travel agents find ridiculously low prices for you call smartfares today and get the best price on your next flight. Guaranteed also save up to fifty percents off business and first class tickets eight five five three two five one seven eight zero eight five five three two five one seven eight zero. That's eight five five. Three to five seventeen eighty. Prepare your vehicle for the weather ahead during superstar battery month at O'Reilly Auto. Parts with great deals on batteries and accessories plus save on your next oil change with five quarts of Valvoline Max. Life Motor oil and a micro filter. Just Twenty Eight Ninety Nine O. Reilly auto parts better parts better prices every day limits apply see store for details auto parts. I'm sorry it's the pleats it's actually an optical illusion. It's the pattern on the pants. It's not flattering in the region. I'm actually taking them back right now. Taking the back to the pants store title is a majestic stallion. Thank you for that and welcome back to the show to the with you on sports byline coast to coast around the world on American Forces Radio Network. It's our pleasure to welcome to the show. Author Austin Moorhead. His new book available in paperback and also digital is called young guns obsession overwatch and the future of gaming. Welcome to the show Austin and when you say young guns we're talking in young. How young is the youngest professional sports player right now? Kind of peasants. Who defines a pro for something about someone who became money streaming online? I mean it could be youngest. Is Thirteen years old? You know But if we're talking about overwatch specifically which which. The book covers a minimum age of eighteen to play the now. That's the owl the Overwatch League. Something that you've been obsessed with and I think when I saw Joe -LICA- The warriors go out and buy a team and you think about people with cash putting money in and the owner of the Patriots and the rams and the mets. I mean when you saw this. These guys aren't dumb and they're pretty stingy with their money and it. Kinda showed you that. This league is going places here. Yeah I mean I. I was surprised to see you know the guys like you mentioned crap in the crunchy and Wilton the Wilpon group putting on twenty million dollars for a team as essentially you know a half dozen to a dozen teenagers so that is the prize me. Kind of drew my attention The Warriors Group. Actually they turned down An overwatch the franchise they bought a League of legends franchise instead. Oh that's actually looks pretty smart In retrospect that's the thing that's kind of scary though because you think about a game that comes out and everyone plays fortnight and then a couple of weeks later like Oh. It's a little kids. What's the next thing and that can be a little bit challenging as you know? All of a sudden whatever's clever is no longer cool. Yeah exactly so I gotTa deal with fortnight coming on the scene which is was a cultural phenomenon. I mean everyone was playing that so now the riot which makes League of legends has released Valerie which another first person shooter and so the Overwatch League kind of minor league system. It's called contenders. You just saw this mass exodus from contenders players. Who just decided. They'd rather go. Try to be Valerie route. Then be in the in the in the minor league overwatch systems. So it's yeah it's it's a difficult market to invest in so you follow a couple of teams you follow the team out here in the San Francisco shock and the London Spitfire. I think it's interesting. How they first of all how they get their players and then their players or athletes gamers whatever you WANNA call him. A lot of them have pseudonyms. You know you. Don't WanNa be Bob Smith. It sounds cool. If you're like Ninja. Right yeah. I mean the thing that I really enjoyed that I would ask them. You know one of make Sinatra and so I'm thinking okay as much Frank Sinatra and. It's like Oh no. There's a mix of the fourth midstate biologics. Rapper was Young Sinatra welcome to forever and that's not worth an author comes from and he hasn't actually a on there. I'm like why are the extra? Hey and he's like I'm not sure maybe after eight or maybe just like a common. You guys invented her name. Who's it was kind of a win and Hazy well how do they recruit people sit there in scour over twitch and see who is dominating or do they go to sort of smaller regional tournaments? And you kind of come up through the ranks. That way yeah. I mean over sleeves. I'm most familiar with they. They would just watch the tape of People playing matches you just bringing themselves online or if there was a regional tournament playing they can just get the digital feed. You know sitting in Los Angeles So you know the coaches grind a Lotta tape in this game You know it's all digital all available and That's the primary way they find players. Although oftentimes players will say hey. I one time play on his team with this guy I remember. He was amazing. Muccio player wishing to go talk to him because we need a Lucille player so primarily speaking with author Austin more. The new book called young guns cut more questions when people talk about teams practice schedule. Now a lot of gamers say practice. I'm in front of my monitor nine hours a day. Anyway I'm practicing but it's a different kind of practice as an it. How how so? Well part of it is that. Sometimes the coaches will want them to practice is Pacific strategy and so they'll set up scenarios for for them to practice that and internal screams against each other but then they also are constantly having scrimmages against other teams within the League so they actually can test out new strategies against talk show talent Kind of From from from their practice written are we started still waiting. There have been some guys who been very famous girls as well but are we kinda waiting for that tiger woods. Someone who's going to be so good that they get out of the Video Game Knee sh-she and go mainstream so everyone knows that player's name. Are we still kind of waiting for that person? Well it's already happened in. Korea like faker is famous He's one of the greatest legal edge and he's probably the best legislator of all time Just amazingly consistent of course his career. I think the American market you know. It's kind of the great white whale three sports. A lot of efforts have Kind of started hearing and failed and I do think we're still waiting for that. Great American player. You have you ever Ninja. Who is a phenomenon streaming you know he was? He's he's probably making over ten million a year on streaming but it's not really like a tournament winning You know winning tournaments tigers domino. He came on the scene. So yeah I think that's fair to say in America. What is it about The Olympics too. Because I'm all for making it an Olympic sport it takes tremendous hand eye coordination and it takes tremendous Will you have to deal with so much stress? You have to deal with so much strategy but when I talked to other people in my field. They're like I'll give me a break. I mean I think it would be cool to have. I'm a video game enthusiasts. Obviously Gamer myself. But where does this stand right now with the e sports? It's it's a very odd to me. They the the head of the IFC said that they wouldn't have Video Games because they don't want activities that promote violence. And you know if you look at this. The survey of research like there's nothing that actually establishes any link between video games and increase violence So that's odd also like boxing. Is that the Olympics like fencing. It'd be Olympics. Google kinds of like you know violent Sports so I think like there's a bit of a moment right now like The World Health Organization used to be very anti Video Games because they claimed it promoted violence. Another thing that it's actually a great activity for while we're all selling at home during the the covert nineteen and so. I think I think it could be shifting and and we could end and we'll see we'll see if one day I'm just interested also you said earlier that with the Golden State warriors buying a legal legends team instead of over watched that that was quite Prussian on their part or worked out that way. Why why is it better that they had done that? Well I mean the League of legends is eight hundred pound gorilla you know like if one stat like in a month in an average month one hundred million hours of religions are watched on twitch. And you know that's probably something like fifty million for four hundred and thirty million for counter strike and it's probably down like closer to like sub ten million for game like overwatch so they're investing a league that has a much steadier Audience and you know the first person shooter and There's there's kind of a new one like twice a year so it's just it's it's more difficult to keep the audience. What about you know e sports arena? Because we know that you know Oakland has a place. Kansas City Nashville are. We GonNA see some more you know. Stadia specifically designed for the stuff we're GONNA to see more stadiums designed for this One interesting idea is that you know we have these malls that are losing. Anchor Tenant Like retail news online and so You know some groups going around Who are basically retrofitting. What used to be a retail store at the mall into each sports arena? And so I think it's Yeah I think there's GonNa be a lot more of that. Does gold farming effect. He sports at all because we know that there are stories of places in China have hundreds of employees. And it's just you know Time is money. And they don't WanNa put in the hours. They just want to go ahead and just by and basically paid a win. Is there any way that gold farming effects sports? I don't think so. I mean go. Farming was primarily a phenomenon world of warcraft. Although it POPs up other places too But most of the most of the things that you would win in a game that's that is New Sport is based on our cosmetic there like a specific skin for your character or something like that so I I don't think it has any impact. What's what's next. I mean. We talked about the Olympics. And maybe more arenas but Do you know what the next big game is going to be or What do you think is on the horizon here? Oh Yeah Valerie is definitely the next big game. I mean I mean riot. They built a successful League of Legends League. It's been going after like ten years so They can also look. I'll have popped up recently to call duty league. The Overwatch League they can look at a fortnight approached East sports and they can kind of pick all the best ideas out of their plus what they know and so. I think they're going to do a good job. And they're to set up a You're going to set up a very popular league Valerie. Kind of like the cell shaded. It's a five on five. Fips game right. Yeah Yeah I liked tactics behind that all right so people WANNA pick up a young guns obsession over watching the future of a gaming. Where do they go on Amazon? You can find it on Barnes and noble target wherever you'd like to buy books. Congratulations on a book. That gets that kind of a publicity. That's awesome for you. Speaking with Austin moorhead great to have you on the show and welcome back anytime. Thank you think rookie. Shit all right I'm artillery. We'll take a quick break and we will come back on sports attention to anyone. That's written a book a wants to write a book. The process is not that complicated. Take a first step. Even if you write a page a day you build momentum and your book will become a reality. Hard part is getting it published. That's when you need to call page publishing. They've got hundreds and hundreds of thank yous from different new authors. Just like you they make the process of publishing your new book and getting it sold online a simple process. You can learn how simple it is right now by calling for your free page publishing new author Submission Kit. One Quick. Three minute phone call. That's all it takes to get free information and learn how you can get your book published. Pick up your phone right now and call us twenty four hours a day at this number eight hundred six zero three zero eight eight five eight hundred six zero three zero eight eight five eight hundred six. Oh Three Oh eight eight five. That's eight hundred six zero three eight eight five if you or a loved. One is suffering from a physical or emotional condition that has left you unable to work then. Listen carefully take this number down. Eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one. That's eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one when you call you'll speak with a social security disability expert and get a free evaluation to see if you may qualify for disability insurance benefits from the US government. That's right a monthly cash payment paid directly to you from the Social Security Administration whether you're applying for the first time or you've already been denied disability benefits call now the disability attorneys at Pinnacle Disability can help you build your case file an appeal and represent you at no upfront cost to you. Don't wait another minute to see if you may qualify for your Social Security Disability Benefits called Pinnacle Disability Group at eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one for your free case evaluation. That's eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one call now. Do you owe ten thousand dollars or more on at least two federal student loans. Then you may qualify for new programs offered by the Department of Education. These programs can reduce your interest lower your payments and possibly qualify you for loan forgiveness if you have ten thousand dollars or more and at least two federal student loans and currently not in school you may qualify for one of these programs. Call now to check your eligibility student. Loan advisors are standing by to help you determine if you qualify for these new programs. They can help you reduce your interest. Lower your payment and even forgive a portion of your student loan debt take control of your financial future. Make this free five minute. Free CALL NOW to nationwide student loans and learn how you can reduce your student loan debt. Eight hundred four three nine seven eight five one eight hundred four three nine seven eight five one eight hundred four three nine seven eight five one eight hundred four three nine seven eight five one. Windu broadcasters go too far where does hilarity stop and vulgarity began? Remember I say to my side. Watch this space. Pipe don't ask Rick tiddle to bring it because it already done got brought. It has been a Brockton. Welcome back thanks for tuning into the show London Landing Castle London Castle. Warwickshire London Cassell. Landing Castle will be joining us tomorrow amongst others. My thanks to my guest author Jim Bell Hubble Legacy Karen Lyle and Monica Grant Cook from the C word John Pasa the author of Yogi. Bruce Marshall the gold she can we discern from Austin moorhead. Young guns all right well Christian. Mccaffrey has an extension. That makes him the. Nfl's highest paid running back. And McCaffrey is definitely worth. It became the third running back in history to go thousand thousand Roger Craig and he had a four year sixty four million dollar extension with the panthers and that puts them ahead of Ezekiel Elliott at sixteen million dollars a year. And it didn't take long for the saints. Alvin Kamara to find out about it. And while McCaffrey got his big day From the Panthers Kamera of course three time pro bowl running back who is entering his Fourth NFL season still playing under his rookie contract sell. Kamara was playing call of duty yesterday when he saw the news of McCaffrey's big extension and he said Oh wait pause pause pause and then he read the details and he said hey man look I don't even I just play football. I'm just a football guy. I don't worry with all these contracts and all these things all this money shutout to Christian man. That's my boy. He's talented well. Listen cameras getting ready for his payday. Third Round Pick. I three years in the league. All Pro Bowl seasons. I mean you talk about a great third round. Pick and a versatile weapon about field Nearly forty five hundred all purpose yards. He already has over two thousand receiving yards. Which is insane for a wide receiver and three years. Is there like Jerry? Rice numbers in two years but Two hundred and forty three Catches Camera. Also averages five yards per carry and his career. And I remember as a rookie. He averaged over six so he is trying to get an extension this off season and this will definitely help him now. Last year he did have a knee in an ankle. Injury Limited kind of production but You know he said any time you deal with injuries. It's tough going into twenty twenty healthy. Expect the same AK. Yes Alvin Kamara capability seven. He said I add things year in and year out off season training. I'll definitely got a couple of different components my training just to make sure that I am ready. Well how cool is it that he was playing the game that I play nonstop which is of course call of duty but the funny thing is I don't know I think his character is actually the Russian dude with the horrible pats and he had a pink assault rifle. I know what he's talking about. I can't play with that character. First of all you have to pay for that character man. I ain't paying for no characters. You already get enough for the prize. Armored till thanks tune. We'll see you tomorrow. You're listening to the heartland news feed radio network broadcasting. Live twenty percent. Our News Stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by you follow us on facebook twitter and instagram's says they have many fantastic stories to tell New York Democratic Governor Andrew. Cuomo says he won't get into a fight. With president trump about how to reopen the economy New York governor Cuomo says now is the time to avoid partisanship. The worst thing we can do. All of this is start with political division. The best thing we have done throughout this past forty four days is we've worked together. Cuomo says that solidarity is needed and rushing. Anything could lead to a new wave of infections. You're listening to. Usa Radio News attention all radio listeners. Who still need food supplies? If you thought about the implication of food related supply chain disruptions and are concerned about the coming Horn teams. This will be the most important message you will ever hear. Here's why in the next few days. All Americans will face extremely hard choices. If we've learned anything from China and Italy it's the corn teams than enforced. Lockdowns are just a few days away here in the. Us listen while dehydrated. Food is becoming scarce. You can still get enough open. Pollinated heirloom seeds to grow a one Acre Crisis Garden. The truth is growing nutrient dense vegetables in the days ahead may actually be the single most important thing you do go to survival see bank dot com and watch the new video to understand the nature of the threat. This could be life. Saving lockdowns can last from six to eight weeks. Get Free Bonus Seeds Special Quarantine reports to go to survival seed. Bank DOT COM. That's survival seed. Bank dot com a man from a big adventure and USA. Radio Networks. Chris Barnes has the details a sixty four year. Old Frenchman is lucky to be alive after he accidentally eat from a fighter jet in flight. The French defence manufacturer worker was offered a joy. Ride on a company outing and an airbase east of Paris reasonably and investigators say when they told him to hold on. He grabbed a handle that activated. The plane's ejection system and he shot out of the plane. About Twenty five hundred feed coming away with minor injuries. After parachuting back to Earth the pilot was somehow not ejected and he landed the plane safely. The Louisiana presidential primary is being delayed again Democratic Governor John. Bel Edwards signed the proclamation on Tuesday saying the election needs to be moved from June twentieth to July. Eleventh he also moved the July twenty fifth election to August fifteenth. You're listening to USA radio news working from home. I'm Chad Veterinarian Consultant Olympiakos. Here's some tips for keeping your dog fit while staying at home. Find Fifteen minutes twice a day and walk your pet at a decent pace around your place play hide and seek by hiding some. Kibera Favorite Toys. And letting your dog find him if you have stairs in your dog mobile walk up and down twice a day for five ten minutes or better yet. Try and power walk in your terrorists or backyard for some fresh air. There are more helpful pet care tips. Dot Com spelled. Y You move. Dot Com at least twelve. People are dead after. Tornadoes rolled through Mississippi on Easter Sunday. Governor Tate Reeves Tells Fox News. His residents are hurting but resilient well. They're they're working hard. We got knocked down now. He has pretty hard to get up and and help ourselves and help our neighbors. So how will we as a country? Get back to work Dr Foul. She says it will not all happen at once and we based on Health Data USA Radio Networks Robin Wolinsky Explains. Some people may think it's going to be like a light switch on and off. You know either out and we're in. It's just not going to be that way because we have a very launch country. Dr Anthony Fauci at the daily White House Corona virus briefing explaining to the American people the process in which it will be determined how we can all get back to work foul. She says it will be based on the medical data in different impacts. As you see. New York is very different from other parts of the country from the Mid West from the mountain region California Washington different than New Orleans so as we discuss and consider the public health aspects. It likely would be something that I referred to as sort of like a rolling reentry. It's not gonNA be one size fits all so. I don't know what it's going to be yet because we still have time to look at it. There will be recommendations that we've purely on on public health for more news you can always find us online at USA radio DOT COM or check us out on facebook at USA radio for USA Radio News. I'm Timberg okay. Listen to me. I know that a lot of times mom. It might not seem what I'm listening to you but I am. I hear you and what you save really does matter to me. I mean let's be honest. No Kid likes rules but I get why we have them. I hear you and I know it's because you care all the talks we've had over the years including what you've told me about not using alcohol and other drugs they stick with me and believe it or not. They really do make a difference especially at times. I've had her months drink. Nothing some good. So thank you dad for talking and preparing me for what's ahead. Thanks never giving up and always being my biggest fan. Thank you for letting me know what you expect. So I can try to meet your expectations for more information about talking with your kids about underage use of alcohol and other drugs visit underage drinking dot samsa Dot Gov from San Francisco Sports byline broadcasting network. You're listening to wrestling observer. Live with your hosts Bryan Alvarez and Mike V. Let's get it all live. We are here every day Monday through Friday noon Pacific three eastern Sunday three Pacific six eastern. We got a lot of news to get into on the show today. Plenty of stuff to talk about at least of which is last night's edition of Raw yes. Wwe Is running live Monday. Wednesday and Friday talked about this yesterday on the show but it is official W E is considered an essential business in the state of Florida. And for those of you wondering before we get anything else. No it is not just debbie leaving me. You Have C. A. W. Pretty much any live sporting events with a national television audience has been decreed and essential business in the state of Florida. So we'll talk about that here today on the show. Obviously there's a lot of things that that entails the least of which is the whole situation with. You have see this. You have see event. That Dana White wants to run that he was unable to run. Ufc Two forty nine. Now I guess you can go to Florida and run that show a w can be doing tapings there. So we'll talk about that here today. Plus the xfl is out of business a couple of couple of days ago the xfl basically went out of business and a whole bunch of people bombarded Dave Meltzer on twitter telling him that infected had not gone out of business. Dave's crazy while in fact it is out of business. They have suspended operations. They have filed for bankruptcy. Yes it's possible that somebody will buy them as a result of this bankruptcy filing but the xfl as you. And I and everybody else knows it. It is dead for the second time we've also got full results from Raleigh last night. Pretty good show with a few exceptions. We could talk about that here and so much more. If you WANNA give us a call one. Eight hundred eight seven eight play one. Eight hundred eight seven eight seven five two nine text messages. Forty five seven eight zero seven five six at Bryan Alvarez on twitter back with more observer life. Do you owe ten thousand dollars or more on at least two federal student loans. Then you may qualify for new programs offered by the Department of Education. These programs can reduce your interest lower your payments and possibly qualify you for loan forgiveness if you have ten thousand dollars or more and at least two federal student loans and currently not in school you may qualify for one of these programs. Call now to check your eligibility student. Loan advisors are standing by to help you determine if you qualify for these new programs. They can help you reduce your interest. Lower your payment and even forgive a portion of your student loan debt take control of your financial future. Make this free five minute. Free CALL NOW to nationwide student loans and learn how you can reduce your student loan debt. Eight hundred four three nine seven eight five one eight hundred four three nine seven eight five one eight hundred four three nine seven eight five one eight hundred four three nine seven eight five one. Hey travelers do you want to save money on your next flight? Then pick up the and call. That's right call because the best prices are not online. They're with smartfares. See smartfares has special deals with the airlines. When they have unsold seats they use smartfares to fill them. So you get airline tickets at ridiculously low prices. Our prices are to low to publish online with the extra money. You'll save. You can book another trip. Fourth Treat yourself to dinner or shopping so stop searching all of those travel sites to find the lowest price on your next flight. Let one of our smartfares expert travel agents find ridiculously low prices for you call smartfares today and get the best price on your next flight. Guaranteed also save up to fifty percent of business and first class tickets eight five five three two five one seven eight eight five five three two five one seven eight zero. That's eight five five. Three to five seventeen eighty. What a fly somewhere looking for cheap flights or cheap tickets then call. That's right call. The low cost airline travel hotline now for prices so low. We can't publish them anywhere. Low Cost Airlines has all kinds of cheap travel deals fly domestically and save up to seventy five percents. You can even fly internationally and save even more. Yes fly anywhere in the world and save a lot of money on your plane tickets. We'll even save you money with cheap travel. Deals on hotels. Rental cars even complete travel packages. So don't book your tickets until you call us first for the absolute cheapest prices on. Us and international airline tickets and hotel call right now for prices Solo. They can't be published travel. Experts are here twenty four seven tale eight hundred seven five four four five three one. Eight hundred seven five four four five three one eight hundred seven five four four five three one. That's eight hundred seven. Five four forty five thirty one. You're listening to wrestling observer. Live with Bryan. Alvarez and Mike Zimmer v on the sports byline broadcasting network all right. We're back here on this show. Brian Alvarez year wrestling observer live Mike Soccer Wrestling Observer Dot com here on Sports byline USA TWITCH DOT TV and Youtube. All streaming live. If you want to give the program a contact today not a call. Just contact us several ways to do so text message forty five seven eight zero seven five six four to five seven eight zero seven five six Brian and wrestling observer. Dot Com is the email at Bryan Alvarez on twitter at Sylvia's well all of these links and numbers etcetera. It's all up on the front page of wrestling observer DOT COM. Scroll down the right hand side of the page. If you don't have time to write it all down. When I throw it out there just go to wrestling. Observer DOT COM. Everything you need is there. And of course all of the links to listen and watch. These shows are available daily on my twitter at Bryan Alvarez when the show starts at a press conference yesterday Orange County Mayor Jerry. Demings was asked how? Wes deal able to run shows. Despite the state's stay at home order I think. Initially there was a review that was done and they were not initially deemed essential business with some conversation with the governor's office regarding the governor's order. They were deemed an essential business and so therefore they are allowed to remain open having said that because of hippo laws he doesn't know these specifics associated with the person and wwe tested positive for cove in nineteen. But that's like a little family. He said a small family of professional athletes that wrestle and if one of my family members tested positive in my house that would be concerning to me. We would have to make some provision in my house to make sure that the rest of us not get infected. I would assume that from a business perspective. The W is doing that type of analysis of its own family. It was later. Reiterated that the memo read quote employees at a professional sports and media production with a national audience including any athletes entertainers production team executive team media team at any other necessary to facilitate including services supporting such production. Only if the location is closed to the general public are considered essential services. So basically if you watch raw last night I mean this just this full speed ahead Jerry. Lawler seventy years old had a heart attack. He's out there. The commentary booth. He's like a foot away from the other. Announcers were just bailing forward with his thing. Sarah Schreiber is there last night? And all of the other backstage interview. Charlie is there. I mean the barber was there and I'm not making that up. I mean it's just like a full. Wbz production again. They've just gone full speed ahead and I mean I talked about this for days. I'm not going to repeat myself but very quickly if you WANNA take five weeks. Tv send everybody home. Let himself Corentin and hang out with their family till the next set of tapings. I wouldn't do it but if you're gonNA take precautions knock yourself out. Okay but dude running live three times a week with a full crew including the barber. I mean that's that's how many people we've got there and they're all right next to each other and they're wrestling each other and then they're going home and they come back the next week so you either got to never see your family. It's either a permanent self quarantine or you just say what the Hell I got home. And we've got to roll the dice whether my family gets infected. If I happen to get something I mean. That's where we're at here. I think it's it's just ridiculous but hey they're doing it and so I can't even say more power to them. I'll just say they're doing it. They're doing it ray. Mysterious was there too less. Nineteen his His interview was needed. That couldn't be done during skype or something like that. You know as much as I love. Charlie Caruso her Sarah Schreiber to be there holding sticks when the reality is these guys and gals cutting interviews directly into the camera over. The last couple of weeks has been a lot better anyway. So we'll just have to see what happens. You know part of that just pulling my hair out yesterday find out. It's not the networks putting the screws to the wwe run these shows. It's just W. W. Wine. Run the show so any cynicism I had well it was well-founded and Jerry lawler being there as a central performer. Obviously didn't go the way they probably would have liked it to go to with his comment about the ramen noodle moon salt that off color joke. I don't think he should be crushed for it or anything like that. But it's a great example of why Jerry lawler probably shouldn't be on commentary but a little bit of a bigger issue for me in part of my rant yesterday when I was pulling my hair out was the wrestlers themselves and the decisions that they make in some guys like Roman reigns have decided to not be there. I don't know what the deal is with. Kevin owns or anybody else. But it's not just about the individual and as much as you know we were all selfish in our own ways as much as professional wrestlers by nature are very very selfish. Just want to point this out that Dr Fallacies has said. This was in the article today. He was on C. Span last night taking calls after the presser of that he had at the White House points out another complication. This is a quote from the article in other complications that scientists still don't have a solid understanding of how often people who show either no obvious symptoms or very few symptoms or spreading the virus. It's purely quote a guesstimate but no less than twenty five percent and no more than half of overall cases may be from the relatively a- symptomatic he said you know I'm not hiding in a closet or anything fearful for my life every day or anything like that but this is obviously still in the stages where we have got to be concerned and it still easily passable and it's passable in ways that they don't know how to control and by continuing to do these shows you'd just go ahead and continue to increase the risk and it's one thing if you're only risking yourself. I don't have a problem that but then you're gonNA take it and you're going to bring it to other people and what if you don't you know make your brother's sick in the locker room but then you go home from hanging out with that brother and you go make your real brother sick and you go? Make that brother's son or daughter. Sick or D- grandmother or grandfather. It's just it's a slippery slope and as much as I need to continue because this is part of my income. I need wrestling continue. I wanted to continue. We've got plenty of things we could talk about. Though we don't have to talk about live wrestling taking place in empty arenas that frankly for the most part kind of sucks anyway for visiting you. Think running live. Tv COINCIDES WITH XFL filing for bankruptcy. Vince doesn't want to lose any more money. I'm sure this is all tied together. Xfl filed for bankruptcy. Everybody talking about how Davis wrong. Well you're wrong. The XFL has filed for chapter eleven bankruptcy relief. It was filed by Vince. Mcmahon Alpha entertainment lists the League has both ten to fifteen million estimated assets estimated liabilities McMahon's one hundred percent of Class A shares. Seventy six point five percent of Class B shares and after insisting that the xfl and the wwe were quote totally separate. It turns out that Debbie owns twenty three point five percent of the Class B shares. How about that and xfl Source Tells Sports Business Journal? The League is in fact for sale as part of the bankruptcy process. I'm sure people will be pounding down the doors to buy this league. Xfl intends to return all tickets funds to the fans. Tmz reports sources told them the corona virus pandemic xfl to lose quote tens of millions in revenue the report also stated xfl. Employees were paid their full wages up until April twelfth along with accrued vacation days however listed as creditors in the bankruptcy filing Bob Stoops Marc trestman. Jonathan Haze Winston Moss Kevin Gilbride. And so on and so on. So basically. If you guys don't know what happened with the xfl the XFL was getting no television money. The XFL was being funded at one hundred percent by Vince. Mcmahon Vince McMahon. Sold like three hundred million dollars worth of stock he was going to fully fund the XFL for two full seasons with the hope that after two seasons a television company. That's going to be willing to give them a big money. Deal like they give for raw and smackdown and thus he would make his money back. That was his plan. So what's happened here? Is All of these claims these these creditors all it means is Vince. Shut the league down. And he doesn't want to pay what he had promised all of these people that he had set money aside to pay them for so now it's a bankruptcy filing and they're all creditors so this is what this billionaire is doing here in the middle of of this. Cova crisis he shut down the XFL. All of these people are out of luck but he's GonNa tear forward with. Wwe Live programming back in a moment for life. If you or a loved one is suffering from physical or emotional condition that left you unable to work then. Listen CAREFULLY. Take this number down. Eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one. That's eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one. When you call you'll speak with a social security disability expert and get a free evaluation to see if you qualify for disability insurance benefits from the US government. That's right a monthly cash payment paid directly to you from the Social Security Administration whether you're applying for the first time or you've already been denied disability benefits call now the disability attorneys at Pinnacle Disability can help you build your case filed an appeal and represent you at no upfront cost to you. Don't wait another minute to see if you qualify for your Social Security Disability Benefits called Pinnacle Disability Group at eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one your free case evaluation. That's eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one call now. Here's a great way to save money on your prescription medications. If you take Viagra or Cialis we can give you away to pay as little as two dollars. A pill compare. That price is as high as sixty dollars per tablet. These pills work for men and women to improve their sexual performance and now for the price of two or three pills you can get nearly one hundred. There's no need to pay expensive prices for Viagra or CIALIS. Call now with your prescription and pay. As little as two dollars a pill we offer twenty four seven service and always free delivery and confidential packaging. Change Your Life for the better and have fun call. Pharmacy Shop. Twenty four seven to get generic versions of Viagra or Cialis for as little as two dollars a pill plus free discreet shipping eight hundred seven zero nine four four zero nine eight hundred seven zero nine four four zero nine eight hundred seven zero nine four four zero nine. That's eight hundred. Seven zero nine forty four zero nine. It has been said that everyone has a book them. But you have the time or the ability to write your book. Maybe you picked up some skills or head a life experience that you wanna pass on in the form of a book to help others. Maybe you WANNA leave an autobiography for your family. Or maybe you built a successful business and you want to share your story at Dorrance Publishing Company. We have professional riders. Who can help turn your book idea into a finished manuscript quickly and affordably a dorrance? Ghostwriter Kim provides much or as little help as you need to complete your book. You'll work directly with your ghost rider to finish your book faster than you ever could on your own. It's easy to become a published author called Dorrance now to learn more eight hundred four eight five six zero zero three eight hundred four eight five six zero zero three eight hundred four eight five six zero zero three call right now. That number is eight hundred. Four eight five six thousand three. You're listening to wrestling observer. Live with Bryan Alvarez and Mike on the sports byline broadcasting network nothing expanding an entire commercial break arguing with an idiot on twitch but hey I did it everybody twitch dot TV slash for w video say man you get the tank top. The guns are out. You know looking for a fight. Look at you so this raw show. Last night I thought was actually a pretty good show quite frankly with a couple of exceptions ramen noodle being obvious one but there was some good wrestling on the show and they are. There are building towards an uncertain future. We've got a new lows in Gober knob blaze which I'm fine with Andrade and Angel Garza and Austin Theory Austin theory has been called up to the main roster. So that's what happens when you look like Austin Theory. Even if you're very very green and not ready to be called up but things happen we add some good wrestling. Alistair and only lower was good. Osc in Ruby riot was good we add a baffling moment with Shane of as Ler and Sarah. Logan if you're trying to figure out whether this show is live or taped match there should tell you was live because the ring announcer screwed up the announcement of the winner which screwed up money in the bank and the ad that corrected so that was interesting. We had the we have here. I don't even WanNa talk about Ni- Jackson Kyri. That was no good no Rick Shane. Cedric Viking raiders. Pretty good and Drouin. Andrade was a pretty good main event. That drew McIntyre one clean getting revenge for Andrade injuring him allegedly and putting him out of action for six months when he won the title from years ago a storyline years in the making dating. Back TO ANNEX T. I liked that so overall as far as as empty arena wrestling shows go wrong was better than most and actually. I liked smackdown this week too. So maybe maybe I'm just delirious I don't know but I like both those shows little bit delirious it's just it gets in Ravi three hours of stuff anyway when there's people there it's really bad to me when I wanNA complain. Say there's too much wrestling but it's just an stalled trying to get used to it So especially when there's so much of it I was a proponent of using were tape stuff using more stuff from the past Kinda utilizing the the AV department. But they're just not into that. They think the ratings are going to be worse. I don't know how that's the case because they keep running you know I run matches and and that doesn't seem to be doing either. We'll have to see what happens. I just hope when all of this is said and done and this viruses behind us that we actually still have Andrey Angel. Garza Austin theory and Selena Vega together as a focal point overall. Because I felt last night. That was great. That was one great thing they did. Her on commentary was very good. I thought the way they built them throughout the show Leading into that Andreotti match was very good and angel. Garza much like Austin. Theory should not be on the main roster. It's too early. You just look at him you know he's going to be a star. You look at the family history. I was a huge fan of his own. Call a massive Fan Austin theory. You look at him he can see right away why they're in love with him why they think he's going to be a future star but they're not ready but being with Indrawati every single day every single night that they can go out there and be with him. They're both gonna take things from him in a different way. That's going to make them better and I really hope and this is a lot to ask. Wwe But I really hope that they see what they have there as a group and don't decide to do what they usually do which is break people up very quickly so a lot to ask but let's see what happens. Astra Black and only Larkin. You Know Oni lurking is probably destined for a career of doing what he did last night but as long as he gets to have matches with allistair black and gets to have matches where he's going to come out on the losing end of the stick but but be at least competitive at times and really put on a good performance. I'm going to be happy about that. Because he is brutally underused and when it comes to the cruiserweight tournament. I just want to mention that. It did stand out that Akira Kurosawa who just gets murdered week after week after week is not in this thing or is in that thing and Leo. Rush isn't so I don't know what that means if anything at all enough. Leo's back in the Doghouse. But I know for some reason that stuck out to me and I will throw this out there to seth rollins as far as a performer. I think is great. I know him much more of a fan of Seth rollins and other people are with. That said I'm not sure if he's going to continue on with these solitary promos and I know you know he was playing up the heavy the aspect of the Messiah and everything. But I don't know I don't know I think just being a prick and call himself a god-like figure is enough. I don't think if he's going to descend into character. We'll have to see what happens but I'm not sure if I'm going to be buying it from those two promos last night for how much money you think w makes for the state of Florida. Well I think if you read the statement I gotta read this statement again because it's so funny this is this. Is the statement from from Florida. Says here where is this? Drive me crazy I think. Initially there was a review that was done and they were not initially deemed an essential business with some conversation. With the governor's office regarding the governor's order they were deemed essential business. That's the actual the actual quote. That's it's sad but that's real okay so anyway. I don't know this but I would strongly suspect that there was a conversation with trump and the governor and lo and behold everything opens up and it also strongly suspected that there was a there was an agreement that you know. Let us tape here. And we'll give you wrestlemainia not this coming year but the year after we'll we'll do our make good for for this Tampa Wrestlemainia. I would not be in the least bit surprise of all of this ties together and helped get the state opened up to all of these different events and the amazing thing about Florida is the the number one risk when it comes to corona virus is age. That's above anything else. Age is a pre existing condition that trumps all other pre existing conditions when it comes to hospitalizations in the death rate from this. Many old people are in Florida like the elderly population in Florida. And now you're gonNA bring in these. Mma fights and these wrestling shows and these are people flying in from all over the place and every sports going to open back up again. This is madness but this is life. The oldest county in the country is in the state of Florida tons of retirees not only from America from across Canada Plant themselves down in Florida for the rest of their lives at. Hey Y- directly has to do with the other being but everything is incestuous in that world so It can be noted that Florida's a battleground state Fullerton is a state that not only the Democrats want to take really bad. The Republicans WanNa hold onto it really bad and there is the Linda McMahon lead Super Pac America first action or whatever it's called the the trump super PAC that is thrown around a lot of money down there so while I don't think that specific thing is is directly tied to vis just by nature of. Who's involved and the fact that it's Politics Money? It's business in. It's people who believe they're special favors out there. It all ties together and this is probably not the last we're going to hear about the McMahon name we interrupt your regular scheduled programing with a special news alert. Good afternoon everyone. Today I want to review our latest updates on hospitalization rates and ventilator data and what these numbers might mean in the larger context of our curve but before we get into the data and the trends that we're seeing I want everyone to understand something very important exactly one week ago. I stood in front of you to deliver the solemn news that we had reached a new record high single day increase in covert related deaths in Illinois. We then proceeded to hit or surpass that marker twice on the days since we then today sorry today is not a record. Seventy four more Illinois lost their lives since yesterday's update to the loved ones of those individuals. And all who we've lost in the fight against this virus the entire state of Illinois Greaves with you as we work to defeat cove nineteen at some point. We will have fewer cases to report and fewer lives lost. That will be good news but it doesn't change the fact that each and every life that we lose to this virus is an immense tragedy may each and every one of their memories. Be for a blessing with that said. I want to start our conversation today. With one of the numbers that we watch closely and that's our doubling rate. That's the number of days that it takes to double case counts hospitalizations or deaths. Why is that important? Well because the higher that number is the slower growth which means the flatter your curve at the beginning of this pandemic are doubling rates. Were very low. And since we put all our executive orders in place Illinois has seen are doubling rates increase substantially. That is a very good thing. On March twenty second the rate at which are coverted positive case count was doubling was just about two days by April first that rate had increased to around three point. Six days of this Sunday April twelfth are doubling rate had reached eight point two days similarly our mortality doubling rate has increased at the beginning of April. It was at two point five days and it is now at five point five days to be clear there is nothing good about twice as many people having this virus or worse dying from it no matter how long the increase takes but we won't get to zero cases overnight the fact that are doubling rate continues to increase in every metric is a clear demonstration that there is a deceleration of virus transmission. We are in fact bending the curve perhaps the most accurate leading indicator of our progress is our hospitalization data right now if someone is sick enough with a respiratory illness to need hospital care then it's likely that that person has cove nineteen whether or not they have been tested on April sixth the number of known covert patients suspected covert patients totaled three thousand six hundred and eighty on April tenth. That number was four thousand and twenty on April Eleventh. It was four thousand one hundred and four. On April twelfth. Four Thousand Ninety one as of today was four thousand. Two hundred eighty three as you can see. These numbers are increasing however so too is our overall hospital capacity are hospitals are working every day to add beds in August of Twenty nineteen just to give you a number way before Kovic nineteen came to us our state averaged about twenty five thousand five hundred total beds as of this weekend are total bed. Count is about thirty thousand two other important metrics are ICU. Beds and ventilators. A week ago coverted patients as a percentage of ICU. Beds increased from thirty five percent to forty three percent. An eight percentage point jump covert patients. Today occupy forty percent of our total. Icu beds that's down. From the forty three percent a week ago in the same timeframe cova patients as a percentage of total ventilators grew from twenty four to twenty nine percent of five point. Jump in a week. Kovic patients today occupy twenty five percent of our total ventilators. Both of those numbers are evidence of positive trends. A declining number percentage of ICU beds occupied by Kovin patients and the declining number of ventilators occupied by a covert patients. Additionally our total ventilator numbers are starting to reflect the additional ventilators that we've acquired now totaling more than three thousand across the state over all these numbers are indicators of our growing ability to manage capacity within the healthcare systems across Illinois. We track not only individual hospitals but also by region and keep our eyes trained on the regions with capacity in any of these metrics fall below a critical level though. That's what we pay attention to at our daily meetings. Today no region is currently below fifteen percent availability in any of these metrics but there are individual hospitals that are operating at or near Max Capacity Right now. Hospitals are buying large doing a great job of directing patients amongst themselves but if it becomes necessary I will not hesitate to step in to direct. Icu patients to hospitals. That are more available and while we're talking about capacity I am so deeply thankful for the now three thousand six hundred retired and out of state healthcare professionals who have applied to join Illinois fight against cove nineteen. Before I turn it over to Dr Ezekie. I feel compelled to address what it will mean when we say. We've flattened the curve folks. This curve may not flatten and it may go up again. If we don't adhere to the stay at home order we need to stay the course for now for our efforts to truly remain effective. Let me lay it out more. Clearly there is no one who wants our state to open up more than I do. I want kids to go back to school and I want parents to go back to work. I want families to enjoy our parks and lake fronts. I want small. Businesses thriving restaurants flooded with recipes with reservations job growth to return to their record highs but no matter what the president may say. I will do what's best to safeguard the health and safety of Illinois residents. That means test trace and treat. I'm hopeful the president will help us accomplish that. Because that's what will make it safer for people to begin to return to their normal lives. What we have to do is to design a new normal a way of life to carry us to the other and while that day is not here yet my team and I are working to bring that about as our experts around the state and across the globe. No one looks forward to that day more than I do and now I'd like to turn it over to our director Dr Ghazi K. for today's medical update. Thank you sir. Good afternoon I bring today's medical report with a warm. Thank you first to. The third graders pierce elementary in. Chicago's edgewater community. There's thoughtful and colorful digital. Thank you cards for our public. Health and health care. Workers are greatly appreciated and have lifted our spirits. Thank you to those third graders from making a difference and reaching out to support others today. I report that one thousand two hundred twenty two to new people diagnosed with the virus and unfortunately seventy four additional lives have been lost to cove in one thousand nine hundred that brings Total Illinois to twenty three thousand two hundred and forty seven cases including eight hundred. Sixty eight lives lost again. Our deepest consoles condolences. Go out to all of the families who are dealing with the loss as well as people who are dealing with their loved one this virus at this time the Illinois Department of Public Health has continued to outreach to individuals who were diagnosed with covert nineteen through an electric survey to identify people who have recovered. We sent out these electronic surveys to people to catch their recovery rate at seven days fourteen days. Twenty one days and twenty eight days as you can imagine. People are getting better with time for people who don't respond to the survey. We have a staff of twenty three individuals who are calling to follow up. We're making about three hundred calls a day to people who didn't respond of which approximately half of those results in a successful interview so to share those results. I am happy to report that of the people who were surveyed at seven days forty four percent have indicated recovery at fourteen days the number increases to fifty percent at twenty one days after testing positive. We have sixty one percent of people who responded either to the initial electronic survey or the follow up ten telephone call that they no longer have symptoms and at twenty eight days. Sixty nine percent of people reported no no Cova. One thousand nine hundred system symptoms and feeling much better so again. People are getting better people recover from this disease. It is important to note that not everyone Responded to the survey so potentially The averages could be higher during these uncertain times. When people may feel helpless. I WanNa remind you all of the things that you can do like our third graders. Did they may be small but they truly have big impact. Of course you need to continue to stay home. We keep talking about flattening the curve the reason that the doubling time is prolonging is because of these measures that have been that have been dictated and that have been and followed so we have to stay. The course I'm almost grateful for seeing snowflakes outside my windows to ease the temptation of people to want to be outside. I know many of you are tired of hearing this but it will make a difference it has been making a difference and it will continue to make a difference if you have to leave your home. Please wear a mask please. Keep fully distanced physically from other people. Whether you're walking on the street whether you're in the grocery store or the pharmacy keep washing your hands. Keep cleaning frequently touched surfaces. We will stay the course and together. We will turn the tide. Thank you and now all summarize comments in Spanish when a status report because they are common grass assist the anticipate grotto. Pretty Mardi up pierce in Komo. Neither EDGEWATER CHICAGO SUE. Stop hit this. Did He phthalates. But on the West Coast Rapper. Her daughters they salute Publica medicals. So we appreciate us an elevator Nuestra animal. This Day. I HEAR MEAL. Santos painted those personas and see though the house together. Sonesta views is the tenth Quadra Personas and parodies thia Covet nineteen our ESTAN report tondo the meal. Though Santos Castles include the Orchard Cinta Yo chill visas parody Nuestra centimeters stand contoss less familiar. Illescu. Money does get stands to frendo esther momentum as Departamento they salute Public Illinois. I continue although in contact on has personas que positive. Positive Ozcan cove in nineteen at Travis. Inquest that electron. Ika Mondo lost director for Portal. Fano most startled and Biondo encuestas electronic amended Qatar. Say Ventiaan even the OCHO. The displays Keller's Post Personas Positive O. Tambi N I persona case a LAS personas que no I said reporter for the survey Electronical displaced this. Es L. Quarantine Quattro Porsche. Nto in the cattle recuperation Qatar City Es L. Sin Quinta perceive until they lost persona say recoup Arado e displaced in the sense. That you know percents city say no. Ibs in Thomas either wasted Venti Ocho. Yes as it. Then that is sent in new haven. The last personas nursing for Myron Kandel is in Thomas. Esto nose DC. I WANNA progress on personas. Que Mais Horon Canal Temple. Eso's when us not see us out the door on Quarto the hintikka respond do Estado La Hospital as important in in QUINTEX AS Roma's CRTV as this was the the D. Agnostic Pariser Line Cuesta Kiro pretty toddlers personas courtesy manner this West but a but a Saab Eric Star Mirando. Durant they estim-. Memento in Sierra throw in chaos personas points in this valley though Ghetto Record Dallas told us last escape with an Acerra within Peres but instead of Costa's Pacino's bit orientate grand impact. Oh get on saying mutuals personas Stan consolidation. Shallow Better Assan. Low Vassar Mehar defense and La La transmission see is the successor who sound muscular. Montana's say I say species. They distance authorised Personas Lavar. Who'S MANOS OTHER IMPO? In noto Kosslick Era Montenero Rimba hunters put almost come out coming out coming on grass and with that. I will turn it over to Governor Pritzker for questions. Thank you happy. Take ANY QUESTIONS FROM MEMBERS OF MEDIA? Governor. I guess I think the picture of you first before it can go back into the notes and look at all the questions that have come in from my colleagues. So what are the things we wanted to ask you about? Was this regional cooperative effort that you apparently are talking about with other governors. Can you talk us? Tell us who've you've been talking to? And what are the premise. What types of things are you working to coordinate on As you look at well I began this conversation really late last week. with some of the East Coast Governors And then over the last few days with my counterparts Midwest states surrounding us You know our goal of course for this is to start to think about you. Know what are the preconditions For BEGINNING TO Allow certain kinds of businesses to open their doors again to expand the definition of you know those who can work or those businesses that can have their doors open And and as I've said the preconditions that I think are appropriate. Are you know I've talked about it? A lot testing tracing and treating and then I would add to that The availability of P. p. e. to the entire population Even those who might not be able to afford their own. Pp so those things together. I think are the preconditions and there are a lot of other things to discuss but governors that. I've spoken with have been very Frankly very positive about this idea. They've all been thinking about it individually for their states and understand that speaking with a common voice might be a positive move. Is this in part in response to the president and saying that that he's going to be the one to dictate everything and then he's in control. If you will know in fact we've been all of us thinking about you know what's next what's next we have our say at home order in place. The you know the Closing of schools and so on what comes next. What are the things that trigger a change and you know how much how much can we do? And how fast can we do it? All of that I might add is going to be dependent upon what we hear from the epidemiologists and the doctors refer back to some of the other questions from Suzanne Livigno with CBS. To since we learned of OPOLE worker died more poll workers have come forward and saying that they have had cove in nineteen. Even though you said that you couldn't have delayed the primary you do have the broad. Emergency power to do So during situation leg pandemic person who worked at the polls and develop coping nineteen thinks he should have postponed early voting and the primary. Can you talk about the steps that you'll be taking for the November election to ensure the safety of workers to be clear I did not have that power And do not have the power to change the date of an election and that is what the the issue was And so instead I WANNA remind everybody that I instead encouraged everybody to vote by mail to vote early. We did that multiple days. You heard US talking about it. You know they're forty five days before Election Day in which you can actually vote not to mention apply for a an absentee ballot or a mail ballot. I also will tell you that. I think it's extraordinarily important for our state and I would encourage other states to do the same to have mail balloting for everybody available in the general election this year. It's clear now and you remember that as this was developing things were a little bit unclear. The science was unclear. We didn't know whether we'd see any treatment on the horizon. We didn't know whether there'd be any testing and so now that we look forward we we know what we're in for you know. I think we have a pretty good idea. That things may not be completely back to normal By November because there may not be a vaccine available and certainly if there is it might not have been distributed as widely as we would like and so it's very important that we allow people to vote. Democracy must continue and so. I want to encourage our legislature to pass mail balloting to expand mail balloting in our state and across the country where they don't even have mail balloting at all. It was a second part to that question if I might governor to poll workers that Cvs spoke to also said there was not enough sanitation applies white gloves etc pulling stations. what's your response to this. Are you already working with the Board of Elections State Board of elections and locals were helping to seek out and order sanitary supplies for November? Haven't been eating well. We were assured by the boards of elections that In fact they had the PPO or the sanitation sanitary devices that they needed and we were willing to provide them indeed. We were even willing to provide poll workers for them. Who would be garbed in in all of these things We were at least in Chicago. That was rejected And so you know. That's that was their choice. They felt like they had a handle on it And and obviously you know the. We live in very unusual time. There's almost no circumstance in which people are interacting in which You know there isn't at least some danger of cove nineteen being transmitted to somebody. That's why we've encouraged people to stay at home now. That order didn't go in place and we were the second in the nation by one day less than a day I think To put it in place. But that's why we have a stay at home order in now. And why have encouraged everybody to wear a mask everywhere? They go From Vanessa with univision she Six Code cases you've been giving us raw numbers She's wondering if you can break it down by infection rate relative to the number of residents in Illinois. I'm not sure doctor can you I'm not sure relative number residents. I mean it's very hard to say because we are testing everybody in the state of Illinois What we know is that the percentage of people who are tested. Let me back up just for everybody who hasn't You know followed this We're testing people. Show some symptoms of covert nineteen And so those people who show symptoms when they're tested it's about a twenty one percent twenty to twenty one percent positive result when we test them so twenty to twenty one percent of people who are being tested turns out they've got nineteen the rest of the other seventy nine percent. Let's say Have something else cold a flu something else. So that gives you at least an idea of what the positive rate is for. People who are showing some symptoms She followed up also. Did you feel that? Our data shows an accurate rate of infection. Given the fact that minimal testing early on was underway. It might be more useful to look at the broad global data that's available and I'll just share that with you as well About eighty percent of people who get covert Nineteen And by the way we believe everybody is susceptible to cove nineteen period end of sentence. You either have had it already or you're going to get it unless we have a vaccine that prevents you from getting it which we don't currently so eighty percent of people who get cove in nineteen Recover just fine don't require hospitalization or anything of a significant medical intervention nature About nineteen percent Require some further hospitalization or other intervention. And then about one percent. Unfortunately about point seven to one percent Pass away in in many cases because they have either a CO morbidity or they're in an age bracket that is most susceptible The Comptroller reported today that the State has spent one hundred seventy four million dollars for Marion. Ahern on medical supplies ventilators costing sixty five thousand dollars. Each is this price gouging or is this typical prices that we're having to pay for ventilators. Well it's price price gouging and we can identify it as such. We're turning. We're turning that information over to the Attorney General What I would say is that this is the market that every state has been thrown into. This is what I've been talking about for a month. Now that had the governor had the president put in place the defense production. Act to help us with all of these items. We wouldn't be paying five dollars or six dollars sometimes for an N. Ninety five mask that in normal circumstances costs eighty five cents or dollar And the same is true for some of the Ventilators that requiring you know a typical ventilator that's useful in an ICU situation starts. The price starts at around twenty five thousand dollars maybe up to thirty five or forty thousand dollars when we're paying more than that. That's typically because the market has bid up the prices for any available ventilators. Let me be clear. There are very few ventilators available in the entire world. We are acquiring whatever we can so that we are ready in the event that there is a spike in ICU. Beds and need for ventilators. Denis Kozlov We know their ongoing issues with unemployment. But one woman who paid back and overpayment last year was just told by. Es that even though she qualified she's still subject to an eighteen week non-retroactive penalty and can't get benefits now Should something like that be happening during this pandemic? I don't know that particular case but that sounds highly unusual and I would like it if my office could hear from that person because I we should overcome that challenge. That doesn't sound right to me to be at the moment. Thank you and I will turn it over to those online. Oh Sorry Yeah. Can you speak more? Can you speak more specifically about the conversations that you are having with governors in the region and perhaps across the country What guidelines are you were guidelines? Are you guys looking at? And will this be happening all at once in Michigan Illinois Indiana to you're talking about regional look at. How do you begin to lift things like a stay at home order and so on look? The conversations are very much very similar. You know the the Each of us might have a slightly new idea to offer in the conversation. But when I talk about Testing tracing in treating. Everybody understands exactly what that means and that we in fact need to do that so widespread testing so for example. I talked to a governor. Who's talking about buying a commercial lab that exists in their state and converting it entirely to testing for Kovic nineteen and it would yield for that governor tens of thousands of tests on a daily basis. So that's something they're looking at to deal with the testing part. I am looking significantly at Not only the increases in testing that we've begun to to see our state labs and working with our hospitals but on the tracing part looking at a models like what they've are doing in Massachusetts Where they have a you know a a case tracing collaborative that exists or at least that they've stood up you know it's just getting going where they're just using a good old fashioned shoe leather to make sure in call every single person that may have come in contact with somebody who has covert nineteen. That's different I might add than the Google apple APP that you may have heard about that relies upon Bluetooth to you know record who you've been in contact with. You've been within a certain radius of of some people And then that would you know have an automatic kind of recorded List of people There's a their privacy issues that maybe a challenge to to that but I've also read that. Only a third of people would really be eligible to use that because many people either don't have You know those devices or You know or may not come that close to somebody who has device so anyway. The point is that we're all talking about all the different pieces of of testing and tracing in treating other necessary to And then you know and then I think we all also understand that manufacturing every manufacturing facility is a little bit different. I talked to somebody from Ford Motor Company. Who was saying that when they're building their Ford Vehicles? They've got people standing around the body of the vehicle putting it together next to each other. How and how? They don't know yet how they will devise something that would keep kind of social distance and allow those people to work near each other without being so close that they might infect one so. How quickly is this really possible to roll out? How soon might you be standing here telling us that you'll be doing this? Widespread trade tracing and testing. I can't tell you the answer. I'm working as fast as we can to get our testing up to where we know. We're standing up this case tracking mechanism. you know and then of course there is the question of something that's completely out of the control of the governors and the president too and that is treatment what drug is going to be. Deemed TO BE EFFECTIVE REMEDY. Severe Hydrochloric wins. Something else. you know. I've heard very good things about remedy. Severe from the people who are doing the testing or at least the hospitals were testing is being done some of which are here in Chicago But they're all over the world But we still don't have a result remember. They way they do it as a control group that gets a placebo as against another group. That gets the drug and we see what the difference in outcomes is. Thank you regarding the economy. If you had governor something to Bill Brady is asking you to convene a meeting of the legislative leaders to talk about what can be done. I sense that there may be feeling left. Out of the discussion on restarting is is there. Are there any plans to reconvene the for? Legislators to talk about this collaboratively thank you so first of all. I speak with the leaders all the time. I think every one of the leaders would tell you that I've had multiple conversations with them And I'm always happy to have you know we can convene a zoom conference.

Rick tittle Nfl Mlb US Astros Los Angeles California League Austin Moorhead baseball NASCAR Facebook Nhl San Diego Mike Clifford Roger Goodell Kyle Larson Oakland President Trump NBA