11 Episode results for "Justin Ling"
How Canada flunked its first big Fake News test
"It started quietly enough. A couple of stories got a couple of shares on social media. And then they got a few more, and then some public figures shared them, and then some politicians, and then it kept going it is still going. In fact, this is the story of how candidate took its first fake news test of the two thousand nineteen election and flunked it badly. This is a case study of one little website. How it snooker thousands of Canadians? And what happens when you go looking for the people behind this stuff? And it is also a warning because it's about to get a whole lot worse between now and October. And it is pretty clear that we are not as good at sniffing out fake news as we like to think we are. I'm Jordan heath Rawlings. And this is the big story. Justin Ling as a reporter a podcast or his new podcast uncover. The village is about the Bruce MacArthur case and comes out April. Second CBC podcast network. Hi, jessica. Hey, good morning. We're talking about fake news specifically we're starting with the buffalo chronicle, which is what? And where did you first encounter it? Oh, where did I I and counter it? So there was a point where I think I was just sitting on Twitter. And and the story popular I think someone tweeted at me, and they said you what is this that? I remember looking at the the name the buffalo chronicle and thinking I have I have no idea I'm not super up on upstate New York newspapers. So I thought maybe it's a local paper, I clicked the link, but the story I I think the first story was about this supposed- deal that the federal government with a cut for the Bank of Montreal. Supposedly, the Bank of Montreal had been engaged in what? Call it a essentially a bribery campaign to get first nations in British Columbia on board with the trans mountain pipeline. Wow. Supposedly that bribery campaign ran afoul of the criminal code. And that there was a prosecution in the works now juicy. Oh, yeah. Huge huge scoop for the buffalo chronicle not only that though, but the new attorney general had been seeking a deferred prosecution agreement. So that the Bank of Montreal wouldn't get convicted. Okay. And I'm reading this. And I'm going, I know this is nonsense. I am I from from the complete just made up BS. You know? Of course, you can't give it further prosecution agreement to somebody who's not being prosecuted Bank of Montreal is not being prosecuted become Montreal had a stake in the acquisition of the transplant pipeline by the federal government, it it's not bribing for it completely defies logic. All the details that are in the story. Yeah. And yet, I you know, I kind of do a Twitter search and it's being shared be it steadily. It's going around. I'm thinking what that what the heck is the site. What is the buffalo chronicle? Yeah. So, you know, at first it is a little bit of, you know, weird curiosity. Hello through the site. Looked at some of the other other coverage. They don't cover Canada the most they've done is. They've they've linked back to some stories. A lot of local Montreal stories. They posted a handful of Canadian Press stories that best I can tell the Nautica impress clients. So they stole the the story has posted to their website. Okay. Do they cover buffalo for the record? Did they do cover buffalo? They actually are the really the only thing that cover a really really inside baseball. Buffalo city hall a little bit from the New York state assembly and then random Canadian stories, so it's a real mixed bag of a website. Okay. Couple lifestyles stories here, and there are a couple columns. So I'm now intensely curious, but with the site is so I checked in it doesn't strike me that it's a, you know, it's going to be the shoe issue. So I I kind of leave it, but it took back every once in a while. And just the story after story. There's a story saying that Tony Wilson Ray Bolger is going to run for the Indy p she's gonna become MVP leader. She's going. To meet saying, it'd be the new leader of the MVP. There's a there's a story on their claiming that a former supreme court Justice is actually the puppet master behind everything everything from the trans about Naquib, the two things are really focus on on this website, the trans mountain acquisition by the federal government, and this deferred prosecution. Even instance laflin supposedly on this former supreme court Justice. What's behind all of it? He was the puppet. Master pulling the strings behind Justin Trudeau, and Jodie Wilson variable and everybody the deep state. Yeah. Exactly. The does the deep state, and it's by Frankie Lia Bucci, the former supreme court Justice. So that's fun. So I in more and more of these stories pop up our these stories reported, by the way, who writes them who who's quoted in them just give me an example. So there's no byline than the story. So we don't know who the journalist is behind them, right? They're all written in exactly the same voice and the written quite well, actually should say. And what's so cover about them? And this is a really common tactic for fake news site. So in the two thousand sixteen campaign you saw this tactic at us aggressively by well done fake news. And what they do is. They will they will write up. What is in effect? Maybe pithy summary of the actual news that's out there. So there will be sort of a couple of paragraphs about the essence you level in a fair and route widey Wilson revolt resigned from cabinet, and you know, kind of situated in reality. I and it'd be links to real news outlets. Right. So let me links to real news stories. So the, you know, maybe sixty percent of the story is, you know, maybe not totally accurate summaries. But generally based in reality, and then forty percent will be, you know, sources close to Andrew Scheer confirmed that the that the conservative leader is well aware of the Bank of Montreal bribery scheme. But it's keeping in his back pocket for the election. I'm sorry. No, the buffalo chronicle does not have well-placed sources goes to Andrew Scheer. And you know, if they did I bet you some other people would know about this before they did. So the they're basically just inventing things, you know, that that that buttress these huge claims, and you know, and that's what's so clever about and when people read these they've read through and they see. Oh, yeah. I know that's true. I've seen that reported. Where sources close to Andrew Scheer. It's new development as opposed to like a whole new story and who's sharing it? Oh my God. So I've done a little bit. I it's hard to tell sometimes just how much on the being shared without you know, some high priced social media analysis software. So any numbers I'm going to give you are going to be kinda rough yet. But we're looking at tens of thousands of shares on Facebook thousands of tweets, you know, it was posted to read it read it to their credit sniff out as being fake news pretty quickly. Good job. Read it. Facebook Twitter, thousands of times numerous can mean anti Trudeau mean pages shared it widely in that was in turn shared thousands of times. Hundreds of comments thousands of likes on Twitter. You saw shared by two members of parliament, both those conservative a conservative Senator former dragons den dragon Brett Wilson. Okay. And of course, his his one hundred fifty thousand followers with that that went pretty widely after that Warren Consolo, former former informed against Silla. Ciller? Former liberal strategists who is now has a real hate on for the prime minister and a handful of others. You know, it went wide. And there was verified accounts, you know, the little blue checkmark on Twitter confirmed. They're a real person there real public figure. They were sharing these stories Brett Wilson even shared at saying. It's actually it's so funny. I love the way he phrased it. He he didn't even delete this tweet. He has not acknowledged that. He was sharing fake news. And he shared it and said if even ten percent of the story is true. It's a huge deal. And then in brackets he says, but I believe it's one hundred percent true. You eightieth? It's not. It's just like you've you set yourself up to get played there. And then you got played. But that's the essence of why people are sharing this, right? Because it confirms exactly what they would love to think is true or belief. So I have a real problem in this country. And then this country seems to think it is too smart for fake news. Yeah. This is what we're going to get to. Yeah. Go. There's there was a tone that came out of I think after the two thousand sixteen presidential race. There was a tone that came out when the federal government was talking about new rules or requirements or or strategies or tactics to fight fake news and misinformation there's a tone that came out. And it was were too smart for this. You know, we're not, you know, thanks government. You know, thanks for your concern, those idiot, America's those dumb Americans fell for it. But we're Canadians. We're we're a little too smart for that. Well, I have news for you. We're not we are just dumb enough to fall for this. And we fell for it with with aplomb like with with, you know, just happy glee we walked right into the story. And you know, why we did because rabid partisanship in this country is just completely. Put up blinders to just basic critical reading, you know, people were so gleefully happy to share, and and and read and and dig into a story that was critical of the prime minister of the liberal government that they were willing to to to just put all suspicion or critical thinking aside and share wheel with blind glee, and that's really depressing, and it's not depressing because it's critical of the prime minister, it's depressing because you fell for news that is fake. You know, it's just as likely that future fake news will target Andrew Scheer, the conservative party or the end EP or whoever this is not a thing. That's limit that limited to the liberal party. That has happened to be in power right now. Tell me what happened, and you sort of hinted at it a little bit there. What happened when you dug in a little deeper to what the heck the chronicle actually is. So what I do that? When I first started looking at the buffalo chronicle. You know, I'm I'm curious, and I you know, I'm looking through the website. And according to the website, the owner is actually a guy or the managing editor is actually a guy named Terrence Robinson. He's a former green party candidate in in buffalo for for the misspell lection. So I dig up his phone number, and I call them up and say, hey, Terrance, you know, I'm I'm asking about some of these stories. You're publishing the buffalo chronicle, and he goes buffalo chronicle. What's that? And I'm like, okay. Okay. So now, I'm seeing what's going on here. So I start explaining to him. He goes. Oh, yeah. I thought I thought that was a Facebook page. I I have no idea. What it is. I have. I've never read it. I've never been on there. I don't run it. I don't own it. I'd I'd never written. I don't know affiliation. As I had no idea. He tells me. Oh, yeah. So that's Matt Ritchie acids page, and it goes on because that guy's a bit of a loose cannon. I'm gonna go. Okay. So, you know, I hang up because if I can help you out at all I don't want to, you know, piss off our Canadian friends. So if I can help it anyways. That's very nice. Thank you Tara. So I go, and I find that she has phone number. I call him up, and I say, okay. Are you the guy behind the buffalo chronically confirms that he is? And I started asking him, you know, what is behind these stories, and he says I have I have two journalists. One in Britain one is an indigenous woman in British Columbia. I have another one as well. I think he later kind of said that there somewhere in central Antero. He said, you know, those journalists, you know, have these sources that have this research, and I said, well, can you give me their as defending the entire starts to double down from them from the the first second. And I said well, can I have their names with? No, no, no, I have to promise to protect their names. He later said that he needs to protect them from from retribution. He later framed that has the freedom of the press issue, which he wildly misunderstands. You know, he seems to think shield laws around journalists sources also protect the journalists names. That's not true, Matt anyway, so we, you know, we keep going back and forth. And I said, listen, are you going to give any information around? How you got the stories or any collaboration behind these these? You'll big scoops are claiming he basically says no because if you have any factual inaccuracies, send them to me now, correct them, and like, I'm not I'm not how do you fact check a claim that is just completely pulled within air. Yeah. Hey, we go back and forth an Email Alabama. He ultimately refuses to. Give me those reporters names because you know, spoiler alert. I don't think they exist, but we kind of went back and forth, and I kind of hinted hard, and I had to do the math of like, you know, is it is it worth writing a story about this rinky-dink site has a tricked enough people that kind of qualifies it for for, you know, attention. And so I left it alone for a little while. But as time went on the stories, kind of got more outlandish and the people sharing them kind of exponentially grew site was, you know, getting I'm getting tens of thousands of hits every day if not more than that. And people were, you know, going at mainstream outlets saying, you know, your fake news. Why don't you covering this? Huge scoop the buffalo chronicle God. And you know, it got to the point where I said, listen, you know, someone needs to call these guys out, otherwise, otherwise you're going to go online some some reasonable person. We'll see this buffalo chronicle story and go what's the buffalo? Chronicle. I will plug it into Google. You know is buffalo chronicle legit. And they'll be nothing there. Right. They'll only be chronicle stories, and and that's bad. So I I finally decided I'm going to write a big story on this initially. I've talked to global mail the globe in the end it didn't. I want the story I had written which is totally fine. But I reached out to him saying, and I'm Reagan story problem for the global mail Matra chassis respond by saying we're not going to give comment to any publication that that that might be taking Federal's of support money for the media industry. So until you can confirm the golden mail will turn down any public dollar where we will become ending, which is deeply hilarious. So I said great. Thanks comment. Have a great time. He then threatened to sue me. Which is you know, par for the course for this sort of thing. So I end up going on candidate land. I wrote the kind of bigger story about the buffalo chronicle, and and what it means because you know, whatever it's a rinky-dink site that some that some huckster has put together to trickle great example example, it's a parable for how easily tricked we are. But how how rabid partisanship has turned us into these automatons who care more about scoring for their side or the other side getting dragged down in the mud that we don't care if we're sharing is a political tool if it's untrue. If it's fake news. And I think we have to very careful about that. I mean, you know, do we care more about, you know, the portable cut and thrust or do we care about the health of democracy in media? And obviously, you know, everyone likes to say the ladder. But unfortunately, for many, it's the former we talk to Jesse Hirsh this week about Facebook, and what it's doing around the Canadian election. And the point that he made was sure it's very good that Facebook is joining will comply with the government regulations around political add transparency and hurry, and that'll be good for the election. But that won't combat any of what you're talking about here, which is your uncle or aunts. Sees a buffalo news chronicle article and shares it because they just don't know. And there's a whole list of these sites that we saw in two thousand sixteen that look exactly like regular news sites. And they have legit sounding names. Is this the first of many that we're going to see in Canada? Yeah. It'd probably is the first of many, and if Facebook and Twitter claim that they're doing anything to combat this. They're probably lying to us. The reality is Facebook has picked a very narrow kind of path. They're going down there saying if you're gonna put money behind any of these articles, you're gonna put money to get these articles in front of people eyeballs, we're going to tell you who who bought that at and maybe how much they spent and who who the actual. A person's name is about the article they were very slow to even role that much out in Canada and are just doing. So now we had requested that sort of thing that sort of tool in Canada, going back six eight months already available to America and Facebook dragged their feet on it. So no Facebook did not get any credit for any of this Twitter doesn't really do anything. I mean now, they'll I think there's some transparency tools around advise but advise on Twitter and has opted out completely Google. I is a little better to some degree because they are a little upfront there little upfront in terms of saying they will kind of tweak their algorithm to deprioritize sites that are peddling fake news. And they'll make sure they don't get shared on the Google news page Twitter. Actually, I think to some degree actually putting the buffalo chronicle on its news sort of paid on its moments page, which is not good. I saw one screen cap that suggested that they were pushing the buffalo news story the buffalo chronicle story to people as like legit news, which is not good. I I've been told the buffalo creek. Geico claims that the Google that Google news bump them off the news page, which is good. But beyond that, you know to some degree. I do want more, you know, Facebook claim that they're doing this big news integrity push. So then when a news story shows up in your feed that is suspect that they'll be some sort of fact, check underneath I saw it on the onion. And the Beaverton. That's about all I've seen is that this is a perfect example of actual fake news. Where is that caveat? Where is that? They have partnership with AFP. Whereas the AFP fact check at the bottom of the buffalo chronicle page, and that's not there. If you search for the buffalo chronicle, it's still shows up very high on Google, if you're searching for the new stories, they're they're right up there, probably above my story. So, you know, they get credit for the little tiny things they've done. But if they're claiming that they're putting an end to, you know, this this this misinformation being shared widely widely. They're just not doing. So you're number two now behind the buffalo chronicle every. Yeah, it's that ranking you and it's Facebook pages right after your piece. Yeah. So not great. But fundamentally we also can't expect Facebook and Twitter and Google to do all this work for us. If we're the ones that are gonna get trick tier? Then we don't we can't pass the buck and say, you know, it's Facebook's fault that I got tricked that being said, you know, the outrage that goes around these stories does promulgate them, you know, much farther on social media than they would have ever gotten, you know, in in the olden days. Right. So the fact that there's a stop Trudeau Facebook being page with probably tens of thousands of likes who shared this story. You know, then ensured that it would go to a wider network of people who want to stop Trudeau and their interest is not in the veracity of the news story their interest is solely in does. This make Trudeau look in the emotion of I one Trudeau gone. Therefore, I don't care if it's true or false. I wanted to go wide that is the entire concept behind the political memory. That's why sites like north ninety nine and -tario proud do. So well, it's it's frustrating because to some degree Facebook Facebook, especially has built a platform that by its very nature encourages that sort of wide angry sharing whether it's emotional click. That's right. If Facebook emerged circuit board recently made some comment along the lines of you know, I want this platform to be kind of localized again. I don't want this, you know, big open platform. But you know, what you this is what you want. This is how you make money. This is the premise of the entire website unless you're gonna shut it down and start again, I don't actually take you know, with any sort of confidence his comments that he's going to fundamentally alter how. This website works. This is how this is what Facebook is. This is the core of what Facebook is. Now is this. I mean, a wide open tundra of nonsense and that the bums me out. So the solution to this is is probably not governmental, we probably can't expect much from the social media companies. This is personal responsibility. You need to be personally responsible for the nonsense you share online. I think to some degree. We have to actually put this on the political parties themselves to discourage that rabid partisanship. I mean, it would Andrew Scheer comes out and says, you know, the prime minister is guilty of obstruction of Justice. And he needs to be removed from office that plays directly into the people who are holding signs saying tro for treason, you know, we have to realize that there's a connection there. You know, when when when any political leader just starts ratcheting up this this rhetoric to the point where it's an us versus them dichotomy. Yeah. Of course, you're going to get people whipped up to the point where they're going to happily ingest, and then share news at his total nonsense because all. Ultimately, it's all about the game of politics. It's not about democracy, or truthfulness or media, or, you know, the integrity of journalism to end on the buffalo chronicle again is this a new frontier the idea of taking a site that does some local journalism and ingesting fake news into that. So that you kind of have this mix of things that are very credible, or at least somewhat credible with things that aren't what's the next step fake news? I guess that's not an especially new tactic. What we actually saw for some time. I it was sort of a dude your for a while. And I think they've sort of left it because I'm not sure super affective, but we know that Russian disinformation agents actually had a habit of scooping up and buying up Facebook pages that used to share, you know, funny, memes or cat videos, and then slowly inserting pro Russian propaganda into them and using that huge that huge fan base to to reach new to new audiences. And I think we've seen that does under be from other fake news sites. Well, you know, forty percent of the the content is, you know, just innocent run of the Bill, you know, movie reviews and sixty percent is, you know, wild eyed conspiracy theories about Bashar Al Assad, so it's not exceptional. And from what I can tell from what I've been told the buffalo chronicle has peddled in fake news going back a couple of years, mostly New York Centric. But is there anything kind of exceptional but ofo chronicle? No. And that's actually maybe what's most frustrating of all is this was a very low barrier to get over. This was a very low hurdle to jump over. And we tripped over it immediately. You know, like this was probably one of the weakest fake news efforts. Then I've seen it in a while. And we just tripped over the first hurdle as became to it. That's not a good sign. Not a great science. And it's only going to get worse. It's only gonna get worse to be closer to an election. You know, next time this happens. It could be by somebody who's much more plugged into the Canadian political scene. It could be by somebody who has a much more nefarious purpose in mind. You know, I don't think the buffalo chronicle had any intent beyond. I'm just trying to whip up some clicks, and maybe trying to insert itself as a as a player in the media seen. What happens when you know, either the Russians or the Chinese government or the Iranian government decided that they're going to get into this game and start sharing information that is going to, you know, poison the well against support for Israel or they're going to poison the well over support for independent Kurdistan. Or they're going to, you know, whip up fervor against the junk meet sing for being sick. Or there's a thousand different things that can be done here that are much more nefarious and weaponized that could have a much more. Terrifying. Impact in the buffalo chronicle has had then. So that's why I think the buffalo chronicle is a great example because it's almost a little more inane. But we should look at this study this to make sure that when the next thing happened were a little more prepared. Well, that's terrifying. Yeah. Thanks, justin. Justin, Ling one of candidates fake, news experts an expert podcast or to another reminder checkout uncovered the village it's dropping April second that was the big story for more from us, including past episodes with Justin link, you can find us at the big story, podcast dot CA. You can find us at frequency podcast network dot com. You can find us on social media. We are in a lot of places are news not fake though. We're at the big story F PIN, and we are on every platform at frequency pods on Twitter on Facebook on Instagram. We're also wherever you get your podcasts, apple Google, Stitcher. Spotify. The big story is produced by Claire Brisard. Ryan Clark is our associate producer and a Lisa. Nielsen is our digital editor. Stephanie Phillips is an assistant producer slash research. Assistants slash everything else that we need around here. She does it all I'm Jordan Heathrow ellings. Thanks for listening. We'll talk Monday.
Ukraine International Flight 752
"The president trump's impeachment trial is around the corner so's his State of the Union. The Iowa caucuses and then this election in season finally begins in earnest by mid February that one week mic war we had with Iran might be all but a distant memory for most host but not so much for the families of Ukraine International Airlines flight. Seven five two for them. The fallout from the beef with Iran is just starting to ramp up on the show today. We're going to tell the story of what exactly happened as far as we know to this plane and what's to come for all the countries involved Canada Ukraine Iran. Maybe even the United States. Justin Ling is a freelance journalist based in Toronto. He's been covering the story for foreign policy so on January eighth just a little over a week ago amid a lot of tensions in the Middle East just as has Iran was firing a barrage of missiles toward the American military bases in Iraq. You Creating Airlines international flight. Seven fifty two took off from Tehran destined didn't for Kiev and then a lot of the passengers were destined to go on to Toronto. We're learning that a Boeing seven. Three seven passenger plane has crashed in Iran. On with one hundred and seventy six passengers and crew on board those on board included academics returning from holidays newlyweds coming back from their wedding and many many students students. They came from Iran Canada Ukraine Sweden Afghanistan Germany and England. One hundred thirty eight of them were supposed to be on a connecting flight to Toronto. It landed this afternoon without those people. All of them died in the crash. Now there's a whole bunch of confusion as was happening There were reports of a plane. Crash Ashby this was happening. The exact same time there were fears that American Fighter jets were taking off from the UAE elsewhere may be destined for Iran. There was a men's men's confusion about the aware the missiles were going. What fighter jets may have been scrambled? So no one really knew what was happening. It wasn't until we started getting images of this wreckage is that as the hours went on. It became clear that this commercial flight had gone down. So how does Iran initially react to this plane going down. What did they say so? When it becomes clear that in fact a commercial jet had gone down in Iran before anyone really knew fully what had happened Iranian media reports say the aircraft came down to technical problems? One official said it had been on fire. There wasn't a lot a lot of credibility behind that especially shortly after images started coming out that we're initially unverified. Seem about who was showing what appeared to be the plane on fire her mid-flight before it crashed in a field. That generally doesn't seem to happen a lot with engine failure. You don't see a huge explosion. I have my suspicions. It was. It's very I don't want to say that because other people have those suspicions also It's a tragic thing when I see that it's a tragic thing Somebody could've made a mistake on the other side could've could've made a mistake. It was flying. It was already from the get go. There was a lot of speculation that this has been a military incident a not a mechanical failure. Most Western leaders are unanimous in their assessment that missiles launched in Iran brought down on the doomed plane but today Tehran demanding proof so while Iran is denying that this is their work wetter Ukraine canvassing about it publicly publicly. Ukraine was quiet Ukraine managed to get investigators to the crash site relatively quickly Seemingly quicker than any other foreign state that's because under international national civil aviation laws. The destination country has special rights when it comes to the investigation. They have a higher standing when it comes to sending investigators to the crash rush site and Iran dispatched a number of highly trained investigators to look at the crash site and it seems thanks reporting now that the investigators learned pretty quickly clear that this was a shootdown event. They kept that quiet. Initially Candido was a little more blunt. Time went on. We have intelligence from multiple multiple sources including our allies and our own intelligence. The evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by an Iranian surface surface to air missile. This may well have been unintentional. He opened the door and said listen. This may be an accident. We don't know but he said you know the intelligence. It's pretty clear cut so very quickly. I think. Put Iran on the defensive as they're still trying to claim that this was a mechanical failure so how Iran react to Canada's aggressive aggressive reaction. You had the head of the Iranian civil aviation organisation saying that they had already investigated that they completely ruled out the possibility that missiles were to blame for downing the jet families of those killed in the downed plane in Iran are facing competing narratives. Tonight about what led to the deaths of their loved ones. Iran does not believe what that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said yesterday about an Iranian missile shooting down the Ukraine Airlines flight categorically denies it. But of course there's video evidence of if these missiles heading towards the plane. It's very very clear what had happened. Based on cell phone imagery that was uploaded and that was collected in some cases by the New York Times and others I I think it became pretty clear to Iran that they didn't have a leg to stand on. Does Iran come out and make an official statement saying hey that was actually us us and sorry relied on. Iranian state. Media certainly recognized that it wasn't fact the Iranian regime. That doesn't really happen happen unless the regime itself acknowledgement Iran now faces pressure not just from America of course with whom it had a rising tensions over recent weeks weeks but now it has a problem with Canada with Ukraine with the European Union and suddenly after trying to garner some international goodwill it is now very much regarded as is the bad guy. Not only did it shoot down a plane. It tried to lie about it and that is very difficult. I think for the Iranian regime to spin to the European countries. He's with whom it's trying to preserve a nuclear deal on top of that. You have rising discord inside Iran itself. There's anger at the government on the streets in Tehran. Pockets of protest. After Ron's military admitted is accidentally shot down a civilian plane. They shout for their leaders to resign. There were widespread protests in Iran or the end of last year largely over the cost of living thing as the new year dawned a lot of those protests petered out partially because of fear I think internally that they were heading to the precipice of war with America especially after the targeted killing of General Somali. I think the Iranian regime's managed to rally some of the population around. You know it's national. 'cause is that went out the window when it became clear that Iran was responsible for shooting down a jet that had dozens of its own citizens on board. So what is Iran doing now to own this. In recent days you've seen the state start rounding up. Some people with detail who they claim are responsible for the shootdown Iran now confirming that arrest happy made of those involved in the accidental shooting. Down of that play no details. How how many or exactly who has been arrested food and this morning? Iran's President Ronnie admitting the from the get-go he taught the crash wasn't normal. That does seem to be a bit of scapegoating. You know sort of trying to blame blame a rogue faction or you know some incompetent military brass inside but I don't know that many in the public are really going to buy that. I mean fundamentally mentally military structures being what they are. You can't really blame the lowest level. For a mistake of this magnitude ultimately someone higher up needs to be held responsible if non the military the state itself was there any attempt to shift the blame back on the United States. Yeah absolutely I mean. That was kind of quick retort from Tehran. After they recognized they of themselves were responsible for down this airliner. They sort of put it back onto Washington and said you know if not for the hostilities spurred by America this never would have happened and surely Canada isn't too happy with the United States. Either I think if there were no tensions if there was no escalation recently in the region. those Canadians would be right now with their families This is something that happens when when you have conflict and war innocence bear the brunt of Ed Canadian citizens were represented more than any others. There's in the international community on that flight and I think it puts it on Canada to step in and and ensure that there is a credible investigation for one but also credible so You know legal process thus far it's been a mixed bag. Iran initially said that the black boxes were damaged and couldn't be read. Now they're saying either damaged but they're still data on them and just recently we've seen them seemingly acquiesced to a request to send the boxes to France for analysis so it remains to be seen in how to what end they're going to allow military commanders to be interviewed by investigators. That will be a huge piece of this puzzle. It's not not clear whether or not they're going to participate in potentially process at the International Court of Justice. All those things down the line are big questions. That will be very interesting to see how ron response to and more with Justin in a minute on today explained And I'm songwriter. Charlie harding and I'm musicologists needs Sloan where the host of switched on pop a podcast about the making and meaning of popular music. Every week. Charlie I break down the most interesting hits trends ends in artists to understand what they're doing what they're saying and why the songs are so infectious. We've recently broken down. Billy eyelashes music with her brother and collaborator operator. phineas dissecting chance the rapper with super producer felder and covered everything from Dolly. Parton to Scott if you love music you're going to discover something. The era opening in switched on pop. So join US search for switched on pop in your favorite podcast APP and listen to episode about your favorite artists and subscribe for free on Apple podcasts. spotify or ever you're listening to get new music explainers every week and after listening you might want to check out. Our new book switched on Pop. How Popular Music Works and why it matters at your favorite bookseller? Thanks know I'm just in his something like this ever happened before Country accidentally shooting down a plane. Full live civilians yeah. Unfortunately it's happened several times in nineteen eighty eight in the Iran Iraq war Thir- were immense tensions nations in the region. There was a huge threat to international shipping industry of WHO's incredibly credibly vital shipping lane so the US Navy dispatched several ships to patrol the waters and sort of make sure that both estates were respecting international shipping at one point in early July nineteen eighty ace and Iranian Airlines flight took off from from a southern port port city and the US naval ship nearby mistook it for an F.. Fourteen fighter jet and fired two missiles and down the flight killing killing everybody on board mostly around citizens and evaluating information available from the Persian Gulf. We believe that the cruiser USS been sands while actively engaged with threatening running surface units protecting itself from what was concluded to be hostile aircraft shot down and Iranian NEOM airliner over the Straits of her Moose. Government deeply regrets the sensible in that moment. A lot of those fears about what happens when a military military sort of overreacts came alive all over again the US military express their dismay immediately but they didn't take responsibility information that is available to us that the commanding commanding officer operator or other conducted himself with circumspection and considering information that was available to him followed his thirties and acted with good judgement and other Berry crying period of time the US military very similar way to what the Iranians did just this month. They sort of making excuses for the aircraft was not in the air corridor that would normally be in the air quarters. Orders a limited amount of airspace and he was outside of that whether that is Started saying you'll wealth. The flight was operating under military frequency. The flight started descending quite rapidly in an aggressive maneuver and they started goes trying to set up justification for the shootdown now in the months that followed a lot of the other intelligence and Radio Communications radar imagery showed with that in fact the flight was transmitting on a civilian frequency as well that it was quite obvious. It was a commercial airliner that in fact the flight was ascending not descending and that a lot of the claims that were being made may have been well believed in the moment but we're ultimately wrong. It sounds like there is an established playbook for this and that playbook is whenever you shoot shoot down a plane accidentally. The first thing you do is lie about it not even necessarily lie but you kind of weaponize information you have in front of you to sort of skirt responsibility right so you know. I don't really have any doubt that those on the ship did believe that an F. Fourteen was heading their way with the intentive sinking ship. That being said obviously there was more checks that they need to do to confirm that it was an F. Fourteen and not a civilian aircraft. How does the U the US deal with its accidental downing of a civilian aircraft it starts proceedings at the UN and in Court of Justice Government the Republic of Iran considers this a pe- meditated active aggression and a premeditated cold blooded murderer hairdo and they go to court? Basically saying America needs to be held responsible for this America all the while is expressing sympathy. It sort of acknowledges when you know that this was done in air but never actually apologizes and it never really takes responsibility for its happened. Ultimately that process begins is a full investigation as a real investigation instigation that sort of lays bare a lot of the facts of this case but when it gets to court America basically says we're looking to settle the United States and Iran have settled Iran's claims against the United States which were filed before the International Court of Justice concern and that sort of begins setting the stage for what the case law will be going forward and I think also reinforces to the world that there needs to be rules in these situations. They can't really be ad hoc basis where mayor countries are allowed to sort of accept responsibility or deny responsibility based on how they're feeling that day. So how much does the. US end up paying. So ultimately the settlement nineteen ninety six to about one hundred thirty one million dollars. It's not a huge sum of money. But I think from both sides it was a relatively fair settlement Recognition of the damage. That had done those families. Of course we never really replace those who died but it was a substantial of money and did it create some sort of legal legal precedents even though it was I guess up to these two countries. How much money was issued? Its sort of created a benchmark for what a reasonable settlement looks like American never accepted responsibility. Never apologized and that was something. Iran on always demanded years later when the captain of the ship that was responsible for the downing was kind of celebrated and recognized as a hero and in the US military Iran was was absolutely livid all over again so there there's always been this retention where America has never quite owned up to what happened in its entirety and in Iran has has always been sort of sore about that but it sort of sets rules on what happens when a military down two civilian airliner and sort sort of lays the groundwork for investigations. Look like when that happens. You know who's responsible meal is the kind of sets the legal framework to actually bring someone what did bring a foreign nation to court in an instance like this and now ironically Iran's in the position of being the aggressor who might might need to pay out to countries like Canada Ukraine and its own citizens. Yeah that's right and I it sort of turns the tables. It's why it's so difficult. Take credibly a lot of attempts by Tehran to sort of throw this back in America's face because they were the ones clamoring for this credible process that features a serious investigation A real court process and a real penalties and ownership and recognition of what had happened up something that basically kind of uncomfortable with doing now. Who's going to be in the position more so here to ensure that Iran is held? Held accountable is in Ukraine Canada. We saw conversation begin around. What a legal process should look like when win a military downs a civilian airliner? There's something called the Chicago Convention and the Chicago Convention Governs how commercial airliners are supposed to operate from one country to another. It's supposed to be international standard for how planes take off and land and fly through other countries airspace. So under the Chicago oh convention it's sort of recognizes different parties for different responsibilities so as part of the investigation. The manufacturer of the aircraft has sort of special status in terms of you'll leading the investigation though that is sort of designed more for mechanical failures. The country the flight was destined for has has standing to run the investigation. But it's also not totally defined. I mean Canada has insisted on sending investigators already sent. I'm a couple. It's likely to send me more. There was some reticence by Iran seemingly give them visas They've now been award of those visas and the likely in Aron right now and and more likely to show up but I think Canada has to sort of force itself into this. I mean I don't think Ukraine is necessarily incredibly invested vested in in the region. You know it has its own sort of concern story but right now the majority of the victims from from abroad where Canadian so I think it really puts the onus on Canada to step in here. What's more Canada has long pressed to the Iranian regime for for changes around human rights the round democratic processes to sort of try to press it to stop funding terrorist organizations in the region so I think Canada has already exercised? Is the fair bit of pressure on the Iranian state. It has been supportive. Do not a party to the nuclear deal with European Union and the US which I think again puts it into a good spot to actually use what leverage it has to go after Tehran to to do this properly Canada had substantial sanctions in place against Iran? Up until the last couple of years it removed those sanctions and I can imagine that putting them back on. We'll be on the table now. So I think candidate is really the best-placed here. Of course America may see itself being party to the eventual legal process but obviously given the hostility between those two countries and Iran's assistance that America's America's somewhat to blame for the downing. I it puts them in to awkward as a spot to really inject themselves into this process in a major way house. The Canadian Indian public reacting. Is it mad at Iran is mad at the United States. I think it's both you know. There is a public perception. That America America does bear some blame because it created the hostilities that led to this incident at the same time. There's also I think we need to be a fair bit of anger at the Iranian state for actually being responsible and if there's a perception that Iran is dragging its feet wind comes the investigation or the court process or that is obvious skating or trying to cover. Cover up this incident. I think there's going to be a real demand that that Iran be held to account. But there's been a favorite of morning. This was devastating especially to the small number of communities is where these folks came from. Most of the victims came either from Edmund Tin Auto or Montreal and you saw the prime minister reach out to a lot out of the victims families and friends and supporters who showed up on Parliament Hill to hold a candlelight vigil the day after the incident this has been really devastating to a a tight. Knit Community David Geniuses. Who came here to to learn? They came here to out to the world and how they are not year war your she was on the plane last night and she lost her with her two friends. I have no one in Canada like my friends are my family's David L. Families it's new today. I lost brother sister. And it's you may feel unbearably lonely that that you are not alone. Your entire country stands with view tonight tomorrow and in all the years to come we will build that future. They all dreamed of together. That's what Canada is But if Canada is successful tool in holding Iran accountable it might end up insuring that the families of Iranians who died on this flight are compensated tip absolutely and that that really is the flip side of all of this is that if candidates can make this International Court of Justice process where it can put real force in effect behind the Chicago Convention. Then that is a real big victory here. This is what this whole process was designed to as going back to the one thousand nine hundred eighty S. This was kind of the dream of a lot of people who who put this together was to create a legal mechanism to ensure that with this happens there is repercussions and that there has to be if not a full apology. At least recognition of responsibility Path to justice for the people who lost their loved ones. On these flights and hopefully you sorta disincentive for states to shoot first and ask questions later. Justin Ling is a freelance reporter. He's been writing lots about flight. Seven five two for foreign policy. I'm Sean Ramos Firm. This it is today explained
Introducing Uncover: The Village
"For seven years men were vanishing from Toronto's gay village. The community always suspected a serial killer. And they were right in the new season of uncover the village host Justin Ling investigates to spates of brutal murders forty years apart. This is episode one. How can you not see this? You can hear the second half of the series right now at CBC dot CA slash uncover or wherever you're listening right now. Maybe you've seen the headlines in February two thousand nineteen Bruce MacArthur appeared in Toronto courtroom. He was sentenced to life in prison for killing eight men. Macarthur's conviction answered some questions painful questions ones that had hung over Toronto's queer community for years, but it also reopened old mysteries. Mysteries that go. Back decades to a time when being gay meant being a target to win the community had to defend itself because police wouldn't when the closet was for many just a safer choice than coming out to a time when queer people were winding up dead and their killers were getting away with it. Our story starts in two thousand eighteen. Green yard if flowerbeds. This is the section in the middle of it. They tore up last winter and Doug down a few feet took weeks. Of course, they don't call this powdery road area for nothing to ground is wrong. It's a sweltering day in August. I'm in the backyard of tucked away house on a quiet street in Toronto. Here was all green until they came two weeks ago. You can imagine the mess. That it made Karen Fraser lives here. She is an unlikely central figure in this whole story. She's showing me your garden, or at least what's left of it. England can side of this hill. I've known Karen for the better part of year. She's slight she has a head of swept back red hair big Brown eyes, and an oddly endearing sense of humor that is what kept her saying. I think throughout this whole horrifying ordeal. We have deer. Come now. Her secluded backyard slopes down to a pair of railroad tracks beyond that is a deep ravine. Eliminated. Yeah. It's a leafy hideaway in the city. It's also the perfect place to avoid being noticed. Compost pile in the corner for leaves in the fall. And apparently it had things. And then over around here, we'll have to the whole reduce data kits for the major. Just a month before investigators were here combing through her yard her garden and the wooded ravine below they sifted through the dirt and the soil one bucket at a time painstakingly looking for clues it would become the largest forensic investigation in Toronto police history. They scoured it basically scoured it all the way down, but they didn't find anything back here in the end. The dead. Basically all over the ARD cheese. We had a lot of lilies until reply Phillies. Karen is trying to help me picture her yard as it used to be. There were flowerbeds and big colorful stone planters. To daffodils along near lots of Perry. Wing coke. I like it because it starts very early in the spring. You get something all of this was designed and maintained by her faithful gardener, Bruce, and he took good care of it. It was quite lush should Bruce. How does run of Karen's backyard conscientious? Very professional very talented, very kind. Their families had known each other for years. We got a call from Bruce sister saying that her brother had just purchased a gardening business. And she said, I understand you have a double garage, and you're not using it. So simple arrangement. Sure he could store his things in our garage. If he would cut our lawn when we went away on the weekends in the summer and over the years he expanded. He decorated all pots on the property gave us things at Christmas. Yo- it just it grew. Was never social. It was just a nice working relationship. Simple. Not complicated. But it wasn't a one man job. What do you remember about the people who went the hand when he was landscaping your place? Many of them were. Obviously newcomers some were quite shy. Most we saw once sometimes just head of hair going by the window holding up to hanging baskets. We didn't actually meet him at all. I think of all the men who met the horrible fate. I know I met one I think I met a second, man. One time very shy stared at the ground, and Bruce, and I were bantering back and forth. And I could see that demand. He had with him was staring at the ground and laughing because he found it funny to second man, I really felt sorry for him. He was off to the side. And Bruce was annoyed with him said. He's just not going to work out. Since all of them appeared to be amateurs or or very new. I didn't know what this poor man had done. His clothing was not as nice as many of the other men, and I felt bad because he seemed to be really trying had no idea what he was doing and about a month later. I sent Bruce in Email and said, so how did your new man work out? He didn't respond, and it was never mentioned again. Memories of these men stick with Karen. She tells me she had forgotten their names and their faces for years. But now she can't stop thinking about them. All because of what happened on a cold day in January two thousand eighteen about ten thirty in the morning. There is a severe pounding on the door. So I came down expecting a delivery and look to the street, and I turned and two men in navy blue and one of them said, are you Karen Fraser, are you? Karen Fraser, you've got five minutes to get out. There's been a serious crime. Bruce MacArthur has been arrested. My name is Justin linked. This is uncovered the village. I'm an investigative journalist, and I've always been on the lookout for stories that have been passed over or forgotten and four years ago. I started working on a story that was both look good people. Just don't disappear cars located, but he was nowhere to be found. It's it's kind of like, I feel terrorized a string of queer men of color had gone missing from Toronto's gay village between twenty ten and twenty twelve for a time fears of a serial killer stopped the village, but the fear faded away the police closed their investigation the media moved on. Still those disappearances nagged at me. This was personal. This was my community. It started to become clear that their sexuality and their skin colour made them easier to forget easier to write off. But I never imagined where the investigation would go just how awful it would get. This is a story about missing men. Yes. But it's about so much more than that. It's a story about homophobia and violence against marginalized people. It's about a community that demanded answers and didn't get them until it was too late. Right. Toronto's gay village is only about three city blocks. The main focal point is the intersection of church street and Wellesley street. It's not hard to notice that you're in the heart of gay Toronto. There are pride flags hanging from shop windows and telephone poles. And as you walk up church street, there's a bronze statue of Dafur man with a flowing coat and a walking cane. And then there are the twenty foot tall poles. They're decked out with giant rainbow spirals and on the top is a shimmering disco ball. They're supposed to welcome everyone to the church and Wellesley village, they are incredibly Godley. The gay village has been around in one way or the other since the nineteen sixties early on. There was just a few discrete bars. And then there was the gay friendly travel agency, and then the clothing stores queer as folk a TV show that ran in the early two thousands was set in Pittsburgh, but filmed almost entirely in the church and Wellesley village. For lots of people the villages, a sort of refuge. There's plenty of village residents who were born outside of Canada. But who've adopted it as their second home, others are pats from small town candidate like me, and like, Joel. I started seeing him around the local pubs are unsure street. He kind allowed character. And so am I guess that's Joe Walker came here in two thousand eight from Anna toba, he's very vibrant person. He was constantly laughing. He's talking about his friend scanned arosh. Never everything was hilarious in life. I loved it. And for it. If I was in a bad mood. He would draw out to me and the IB fine to his friend. He was just skin to he had come to Toronto from three Lanka or he had fled a decades long civil war. He lived just outside the village and had a wide circle of friends. It is the same man. Karen Fraser, remember standing in her garden years ago? Like, so many people in the village, Joel and scandal were transplants. We started playing pool either the together or something we did it as a hobby. And I was I wish he was here to hear this giving him lessons because he sucked up first. And I'm HIV he came over very long way, very fast. I need is. Then he started being me. And it was it was like the teacher are getting beat by the student is a really good feeling. And and so like, we bonded the majorly over the games trying to funny, but is it possible? He was a shark that he just you know, tricked you into thinking there's no say, so I wish you could say so I need to hear. But no, he was not that good. And I handed it to him every time. So where would you go to kind of the same couple of pubs? What what? Definitely was our mean spot zippers was a community institution some nights. It was a piano bar others. It was a dance club. But on Sunday it was retro night. Retro night was a sort of Sunday service. It was a mix of those who came of age in the seventies and eighties dancing alongside nineteen and twenty year olds who had just come out. If you didn't get there early you'd be stuck waiting in a line that would sometimes wrap around the block, but zippers was also a place to just shoot pool of friends. There's another pool hall rate on church street than a cat. I remember for life. It's called is it the one upstairs. Yes, pegasus. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Pegasus though is still open with four large pool tables in the back and cheap pitchers of beer every night. As they spent more time together, usually playing pool Jolan scandal became increasingly close, but they never dated they worked each other's type. Me and him kind of no interested in shelter. He was into something completely different than I was. And I was too. I mean, I sure I found him attractive, but I I loved him like a brother I never ever looked at a different way scandal was tall dark and lanky. You couldn't miss him. So it was pretty unique unique style. Absolutely like, he was very fashion forward. He had a lot of jewelry. He wore jewelry on every rings on every finger multiple rings like to choose three sometimes on each finger it normally sounds away over top Gardy. But for him it worked with his nationality. I didn't see anyone dressed like him. He dressed like a part of our culture, but the part of his closer with a part of his own mix. I love fashion a great deal. And so it inspired. It always inspired me to like wind up. But I didn't have enough figures or things to do. So. He was definitely into an older gentleman. Type he had a name for them is called silver Dadis. That was his thing. He is very intrigued and attracted to them and everyone in the my ever met was fine. Except for one person was very very jealous and very very obsessive and controlling and who was that boost McArthur. So how often did you see I McArthur around? He started coming around when scandal was out later at night. He was there every time, but he never went to the normal bars when he was Bruce he mostly stayed with him. I guess at the his home or at the eagle, which was our other bars very dark. It's going nice people in there and everything like that. But it is a very good place to hide and the autonomous. And then so what was scandal? Lakewood bushes around a he was constantly to he was constantly trying to console and reassure him that things we're finding that. He was not looking at someone else in that. He was just with him at first I didn't realize what they're arguing about. But after a while it was happening so often that I I could see his face. He was almost frantic to make sure that he was okay. And Bruce was always looking like he was ready to leave and always like in service scolding type of way talking down to him. He just he always wanted to make them. Chase them all the time. So. Was jealousy. I think he was his way of control. I kind of faded from him at that point for a little while of hanging them, we still play pool not every day to honestly it actually stopped being everyday for. Well, he was with predominantly. And then all of a sudden, I did see him. But he was talking about him at the time. Like, I was with Bruce. What do you see guys kind of like when he wasn't around? I try and give them the gears about him a little bit. And he always like, oh BRUCE'S this. And he's, but you know, he's got a good heart. And he always good people. Joel was nearing his wits end despite scandals insistence Joel nude that Bruce was bad news as the weeks went on that summer scandal was around less and less. He was with Bruce. Joe made another effort to see his friend, and he showed up for a game of pool, but it quickly had to leave. I think he's not called by Bruce, and he just left really fast. And I remember thinking like this is getting worse how he's just ninety giving your crop. I remember being a little upset with actually the week or two before because he was just collecting everything that you don't be does and thinking he could he could just come back to me. 'cause I'm sick of phony him China sets things up, but he's never showing. He's never. Doing what he said he's going to do it. Just changes t- complete changed overnight. Scandal didn't show up for work on Tuesday, his friends couldn't reach him. And when they checked his apartment they found. No sign of him. He he'd gone to poppy recently, the husky. And that thing would go everywhere with them. It was like alpha his best friend. It was a beautiful dog. And the next day when came about that he was where we supposed to be all over the place for the tire day. It was brought to our attention that his wallet ID dog. We're still sitting at the house. Skinned friends. Didn't know what happened? But they knew something was off. They covered the village missing persons posters. The even searched nearby refines conversations wet shove fluff too. So you heard he wants to go off like that. And started everyone would change. I came down to the play bar. It's it's like a big O dry. Creed bar had there's a cork board downstairs of listening people at concerts and events and everything like that on there. And I saw somebody ripping his pitcher down because they didn't know. And I took their papers rip them half all of them. Put his ripped page back up there. Really really loud. And I said this is on here. It was becoming an anchor of not knowing there was just nothing to go on. And it was just like he was just picked up off this planet and taking by something we can alien abduction or something like that. Because that's how just hop. It. Just the guy was in everybody's life. And he was a major part of the seed he came through different worlds all at once at he somehow fit into all of them and. Just. Watched closer. Skinned Araj never at was seen leaving zippers on Sunday night Labor Day weekend, two thousand and ten after one of those icon ick retro nights. I was told you Slough seated Bank actually under some Bank CARA taking money out with someone else. And they couldn't tell who it was. Yeah. That's what I thought. Joel says police found security footage of scandal withdrawing money a few blocks away shortly after he left the bar. That was the last time he was seen in public. Who told you that? I think it was just France like really really close friends is out for hearing exerts for what the police were telling them. So you're anything about what they would have said about the other guy that was on the security, but they couldn't see his face even like height build it had to been hand. I guessing I mean, there would be no reason for it to be someone else. If he went missing that day that was a day. He went missing for a reason Joel says that chrome of information is all shared when you're dealing with the gay community. There's some hard feelings from what's upon a time. Forget that. I remember thinking like you just don't care because his his sexuality and whatnot. But I really I know that they had nothing for the longest time. Joel didn't have any answer says to what had happened. So we had to come up with his own explanation. I had to come to some sort of was that he had to relocate. That's where I left to auto. Vicki that's that's why would stay with that. He just is there some days going to get messages on my Facebook. And it's going to say, hey, I'm okay. A forty year old man from three Lanka vanishes from Toronto's gay village. He leaves behind his wallet. And his newly adopted poppy is left without food. He was in a controlling relationship with an older, man. It was mysterious. But it was only one case. So child's property sits dirt road, the very end just on the water. It's pretty secluded. Pretty quiet. Little. Kyle Andrews was a transplant in Toronto's gay villages. Well, he's originally from a small town in Nova Scotia. And that's where I find him. Hundred meters you will arrive at your destination when he was in Toronto. He was an activist and a familiar face on church street. Now he's living a quieter life in rural Canada. Used to go to zippers on Sundays to dance in the back and sorta hang on the other side because I was nervous about dancing until you know, good east coast boy couple running cokes and few years or shots. Something coolers, probably then and just felt like when being gay wasn't cool. It was like a camaraderie. I'm here because I want to know about Maggi K on known to everyone as Hami. Cayo and honeyed we're close very close. And then at. Either the black equal or Timothy's because we've known each other so long and. He seemed to be alone and. I thought it was tracked and said hi and over maybe a year and a half we traded phone numbers starting to hang out and whenever we'd see each other at the bar by other drink him. And I had connected because we're both Ghana in the corner. Vire cells. Honeyed had come to Toronto from Afghanistan. And even though you think Afghantistan, you don't think there was a disco scene. But there was we would be listening to the radio like chum FM would have a lot of eighties hits. And it'd be like all I knew the song. And he know all the words, but he would know the artist, and he could sing he could belt out a song quite well. And. He would play for me. Some records said he would scrounge up through, you know, friends at the kebab house Hammeed fled Kebble amid war but found refuge in Canada. When it came to Toronto, he came with his wife and kids, but within a few years honeyed realize something about himself. He was gay. Well, he had said to me that when he first started to explore who we thought he was as a gay man, he would go to openly spa, and that was kind of a mishmash of different cultures in Ganz straight. Eventually Hamad left his family, home and moved into the village. He began living his life as a gay, man. But still honeyed struggled to find peace. He came all this way to be happy. And he still hasn't happy. He couldn't come up to his family. He couldn't really be himself to everybody that he cared about. And that defected him talk about his wife and kids I actually met his daughter wants and his son, and he was very proudly. And I think it was just hard for him because he knew quite possibly they wouldn't accept him back if he was true with them. You don't think he ever told them that? He was guy. I know that they had suspected because his daughter would ask questions, and he would ask me. Well, how would I respond, and I told them? Well, that's for you to decide if it was me, I'd say this. But I've been pound in my little gay drums since I was nineteen and you were forty some years old coming onto fifty and you're from a strict religious background. And I just know that that he would feel that was impossible. Hami to spend a lot of time at the black eagle. That's probably where he met Bruce McArthur. You see Bruce? And I mean together often a few times second last time. I saw humming. He'd was with Bruce MacArthur in his apartment. And e- kind of freaked me out because we were hanging out and. News and marijuana. And we're having a little bit of good time listening to the radio and being intimate and Bruce MacArthur comes to the door, and he'd had a couple of drinks Neum. So I think he didn't expect me to pop in and Bruce was supposed to meet him later. So Bruce came in and was all upset, and he left, and I would have been upset too you show up at a at a dates house. And there's another date there. What's going on at the time? The interaction didn't mean that much. Kyle just went back to Nova Scotia that summer as he often did. But when he tried to reach Hammeed, he couldn't, and then I left him a shitty voicemail shortly after that or in the middle of the summer about how I was pissed off that he wasn't calling me back. I was kind of where he got the drugs. Kyle kept trying when he came back to Toronto that fall. He kept calling. He'd never answered the calls. Went straight voicemail. So you've been trying to call him. You know, how it happens in gay community before Facebook. It used to be a friend would die. You'd never know until you run into friends at the baron the. Oh, yeah. So and so drown or the died. HIV your cancer, they moved away or whatever. Toronto's queer community has dealt with a lot of loss. LGBTQ people. See higher rates of murder and assault. The aids epidemic wiped out thousands from the community over decades. And sometimes people just pick up and leave Kyle has experienced all of those realities, but when he came back to Toronto a few months later, he was still looking for honeyed. And eventually he found him just not where he expected. I he's walking down street, and there's this pitcher on telephone. It was a Toronto police poster in the picture I made is wearing a crisp navy suit with maroon pocket square in a matching tie his smile's crooked and his left eyebrow cocked upwards his full beard is almost entirely gray. But it wasn't just Hammad's picture on the telephone pole. Next to him is another Afghan national emigrated to Canada Abdul Basser feisty. He was known to his friends as just bass here. He was also a regular in the church street bars, which was a shock to his wife and children. That's who reported him missing. He didn't come home from work one day. He went missing in December of two thousand ten just three months after scandal disappeared. In the picture Bassey wearing traditional Afghan dress, his salt-and-pepper goatee matches his black and white tunic. He has a big grin on his face. The third photo was scandal. Scandal is smirking from underneath a tightly trimmed goatee he has a gold earring in one ear and his shirt is open at the top button. The similarities aren't possible to ignore three middle aged men all with Brown skin. All with facial hair. Above each of their faces in red block letters is the word missing. I saw the poster in I called my good friend Christian Annely what the fuck man. Why wouldn't you tell me where it was all over TV in the news? And I was living in a tent in Nova Scotia when I was there. So psyche is in some other guys, and I go serial killer. He probably. Please from fifty one division. Where can missing today hoping these posters will jog someone's memory in a strange case of three missing men, whose only connection seems to be this neighbor. Did not know each other, but they have similar appearances. And they were not. News vans, lined church street and reporters set up on the sidewalks interviewing anyone who walked by about the disappearances. It's hard to think that they're not connected somehow by something. Plenty of people saw the connection. Mita hands is one of them. She's a longtime activist and is well connected in the queer community. Mita invited me to her home. Just south of the village. She's got a wide smile, and she's impossibly friendly. Are you? We're on meet is back patio. It is so hot. I have to keep wiping sweat from my forehead. Sure. Thank you. Indian drink it cools you down like nothing else in summertime. Mita has this wonderful habit. She'll go out of her way to introduce herself to other queer people of color. She sees on the street. That's how she Mets Gandak. A friend of mine was also, oh, we were outside exchanging dog stories shopping at the market and scan the happen to be by. And when you see another Brown queer person as Brown queer person, you get really excited. My god. Look, there's one more 'cause we all know each other and recognize each other and watch out for each other. That that level of connection that's instantaneous of knowing each other's struggles. And he was luckily really like dogs. And then we started talking I had a German shepherd at the time and she really liked him. He was very good with her. He had connections to the community. He had roots here. But that's not somebody would leave. He had given up a lot to become a part of this community. Number red flag when we didn't show up. Red flags everywhere. You know, I know people I was checking in on when the third person the second person had gone missing going. This is similarity and you kind of look like that you're Brown person with the goatee and be careful be careful. And people don't just they don't get up in their apartment. They don't get up and leave their their friends. They don't get up and leave their community that they worked so hard and lost so much to form that when people go into the village it's to seek out something that is not available to them anywhere else. People don't get up in and leave all of that. Without saying goodbye is Mita. Mita Kyle so many others. They all came around to the same conclusion that something was very wrong here. Everybody who saw the posters brought up specifically the word serial killer. I remember hearing it poster serial killer poster serial killer that this is not chance. This is not a lover's quarrel gonna ride this is a pattern. This is a definitive pattern. But as the community came around to the idea that someone was targeting Brown, gay men police were still reticent initially. I think the tones were very civil asking for help asking for knowledge -ment asking for spotlight to Sean on this. Because obviously there's something going on. And when that didn't happen. I think the tone became more urgent and more animated and finally the tone became very angry of wire you not listening. If we see this is happening if everybody we know sees that this is happening. How can you not see this? Why are you not seeing this? How can you not see? This is exactly how most of the community felt it's exactly how I felt. But the police weren't seeing it or if they were they weren't saying so publicly this is officer Tony Vela speaking to queer newspaper extra in two thousand thirteen those are just the similarities between all three men. This mean, anything it's still unclear at this point. It could mean something, but at this point is still unclear the theory that's to be driving the police investigation. And the media coverage is that these men just took off maybe how meat and Basser went back to Afghanistan, even without their passports, maybe scandal skip town. Maybe nothing bad happened at all what we're looking at right now as a missing person investigation. That's what we have is foul play suspect. It's still unclear so right now a task force of officers have been assigned to the investigation the following on all different leads trying to turn exactly what's happened to the three men, and they don't even know each other. There's no evidence. This is just a even knew. So that's what's concerning here. But the key thing is urging anyone that we know who three men are if you haven't contacts police police give us a call, regardless of if you think formations relevant or not call us. Kyle did call he sat down with police to try to help solve his friend's disappearance. The first investigators did an amazing job like they didn't make me feel intimidated like I talked about sex and marijuana and booze in gay village. And they didn't bad ni- or anything you want a coffee, you they were very professional about it. And so, you know, how do you know, how well did, you know? I mean, do you know in of his family you wear you seem last what was he wearing? What did he do for work? Where do you come from? Where do you go? Where did you mean where did you spend time like a lot of questions? It was about four and a half five hours spent with them. Did you mention versus neighbor? Did you say, you know, I said that the Lhasa my talking, and then I gave a physical description I tried to look them up on the internet. And that his name was Bruce, and I didn't know. Oh, surname. I gave them not really enough details to track them down. But they had said that they had other people mention, and they even tried to leave me on like, do, you know, kind of work. Do you do like side with flowers or lawns was Arborist? So they somebody else had talked about, Bruce, but they didn't have enough juice to go. So what are the first interviews? You did they had said, oh, we know that this person's another friend of one of the other guys had mentioned, Bruce. And they didn't give me enough details. I mean, one of the other men had dated Bruce the last time I saw that's what happened with BRUCE'S there. Kyle sat in that interrogation room and gave police the name, Bruce that piece of information that name was a huge tip. Bruce, the landscaper who had dated scandal the one who had been seen with Hammeed before his disappearance that could have been the tip the cracked the case. But it didn't. the police task force set up to investigate the three men had a name project Houston as in Houston. We have a problem. A year and a half after it was started just months after Kyle sat and then tear Gatien room project. Houston was shut down. And in the village men would continue to go missing. Coming up on the village. Oh, yes. So why don't we just dive right in during the investigation. It was discovered that through was two more missing gay men that had the same church heuristic and scandal. So they had MacArthur on all trio. The village is written and produced by me, Justin linked Jennifer Fowler. And Aaron burns Cecil for nana's is our audio producer Sarah Clayton is our digital producer additional production on the sewed by David McDougal. Tanya Springer is the senior producer of CBC podcasts, and our executive producer is our if neurotic. To read more about the series or see photos of people in this episode. Check out our website at CBC dot CA slash uncover. Or join our Facebook group uncovered to be part of the conversation.
How COVID-19 is changing B.C.s approach to the opioid crisis
"Welcome to week. Four of most of the world working from home and before we get to today's topic because I'm recording this for you on a Sunday. That could be Tuesday or could be a Friday. I wanted us to talk a little bit about the passing of time or not cleared. You realize that this Thursday will mark one month since any of us on this team even set foot in the office. It's been a long month and also it's felt really short for some reason if that makes sense because I I did not think that we would be doing this for a month when we first started. I thought a couple of weeks tops and now to think that we could be doing this for several more months is just wild to me. Well what's been the biggest shift? Few in terms of how you relate to time is it Not Knowing what day it is or what week it is or everything just bleeding together because there are a lot for me but one stands out. Yeah all of that but I think the Vegas one has been just not having anywhere to go. I think that's really messed up my sense of time because I'm no longer scheduling anything or thinking about places I have to be in we. You know what time I have to leave my house in order to not be late. That's a huge part of our daily routines. And without it. My whole schedule is really out of whack. You know for me. The biggest thing has been on a macro level the week that we all left the office I was leaving around five thirty and then walking home around quarter to six and I remember being so grateful that winter was ending and it was still light out at like five forty five. That was huge and love on. That happens. Yeah and then yesterday after almost a month of this it was just after eight and the kid was in bed and I was out in the backyard and I noticed that it was still light out. And that's when it kind of hit me. That like a whole changing of the season had slipped past while I was in my basement. Basically I mean. I hope that we don't have another whole changing of seasons while this is happening but I mean since there is literally no end in sight We've been doing this for a month and we're going to continue doing it. We're GONNA continue to help. People find their way in this new normal. Keep people informed about what's happening with this across the country and also share stories of ways that this pandemic could change society and those things won't always be positive but today at least there is a promising development concerning the last major health crisis that we were talking about before this one but I claire the straight news. What do people need to know about where we are as we start our new week? Well today is actually the first day that Canadians have lost their jobs. Because of Cova nineteen can apply for the Canadian emergency response benefit. It offers up to two thousand dollars a month. Here's the thing though. Not everyone can apply today. You can only apply today if your birthday is in January February or March. So if your birthday is in the three months after that you can apply on Tuesday. The three months after that on Wednesday and the last three months of the year on Thursday Friday is when the program becomes open for anyone to apply. I know it's confusing. All the details are online at Canada DOT CA. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says. He's confident that the country will be able to sort out this ban put in place by the US on protective equipment being exported to Canada. Right now Canada's just trying to convince the US that both countries need each other in this fight and it doesn't help anyone to put any sort of ban in place in Saskatchewan. Health officials are trying to figure out a way to reuse and ninety five masks. They would have to have trials. I of course and those likely would not happen. Directly in hospitals they would likely take place in a controlled setting like lab and in Yukon. The government is providing free cell phones to women in vulnerable situations during this pandemic. They're handing out three hundred and twenty-five phones with a free four month plan and this is because of a rise in domestic violence and also an expected shortage of staff at women shelters as of Sunday. Evening over fifteen thousand cases of Kovic nineteen in Canada with two hundred and ninety seven deaths. Some of the most heartbreaking stories that we've told on this podcast have been about the epidemic came before covert nineteen go. It hasn't ended either. The opioid crisis kills thousands of Canadians a year. But despite that it has often been a real fight on the part of advocates to get our governments to try new things it would help save the lives of users even when those new things have already worked in other places. There are the usual political motives behind this the optics and the party bases and law and order promises that need to be kept a lot of. It is also just felt like stagnation. This is how we fight illegal drugs because the drugs are illegal. And this is what we do repeat. But then along came a virus. That doesn't discriminate between a poor user on. Vancouver's downtown Eastside and the officer who hassles him or that officers family that he goes home to. That's just an example but the spread of Cova Nineteen has made it clear that our society is now only going to be as healthy as the poorest among us and so at least one province has started to try something new when it comes to the OPIOID crisis and if it works who knows what could come next. I'm Jordan Heath Rawlings in this. Is The big story. Justin Ling is a writer and reporter based in Montreal. He's talked to US primarily. I guess about the West Coast though today. Hi Justin Hey has it gone? It's going to. We always start with. How well are you coping? I'm coping pretty well. We literally just moved house on March. First and we've unpacked fully and I feel settled in so it could be much worse excellent and is a good time to have a new place. You've done a lot of reporting On this topic. And and why don't you start kind of level setting for us and tell me about the how the normal life of a drug user and the OPIOID crisis would put them at increased risk given our situation right now right so I mean you? There's already in academic right now in Canada in North America and other parts of the world in terms of mostly opioid use but not exclusively There is a massive problem in terms of the supply of heroin and other opioids as well as methamphetamines that is causing a huge surge in overdoses and other illnesses and deaths related to drug use That's mostly not because there is a serious increase in drug use But it's because there's change in what drugs are available on the market and and sort of what is being marketed as certain drugs so you know users who have been using heroin since the nineteen nineties or the early two thousands are suddenly using heroin. That's being laced with Fendt nor carefully panel Or some users have fully switched things like Fenton all which just pose a massive risk of overdose and potentially death that's the status quo when Cova nineteen began hitting it hit these communities disproportionately hard You're dealing with people who might already be compromised. You're dealing with people who might not have good support systems. Anyway you're dealing with people who might be experiencing some of the symptoms of covert nineteen in their day to day life potentially through Symptoms of withdrawal or just symptoms of drug use and they might not even know they have covert nineteen until it's too late so these two epidemics are crashing together in a really dangerous way and what happens then when health systems which are trying to prepare for an oncoming crisis Start to kind of shrink into another. What's happening right now to the resources that the drug users would normally have access to. I'm thinking of you know safe injection sites and st clinics and that kind of thing. Well you know of course when you implement stayed home orders when you shut down a lot of businesses or other resources when you ask people to stay home of we're going to work avoid going into the grocery store you know that is going to have a massive impact Some safe consumption sites are trying to stay open. But a lot of them are dealing with staff shortages. A lot of them have had to close or reduce their hours. And all of have tried to implement social distancing so they are capacity is significantly lower. Where maybe you were able to have twelve people inside a site at any given time now. You only have six because you want. People spaced apart about two meters. So there's a capacity issue here and for people who don't feel safe or comfortable going outside it means they're going back to the old days of just using drugs indoors and nothing is more dangerous than that. If somebody overdoses there are overdosing alone. And we know that if people don't get access to the overdose reversal drug naloxone. And they don't get oxygen pretty quickly they could die and that is a real real pernicious risk right now but there's also all these these little knock on effects that I think people wouldn't even think about when someone overdoses. One of the lock zone is very helpful. This has become kind of well known in recent years but a lot of overdose victims require oxygen. Because there's a lack of oxygen to the brain with overdose happens and paramedics are not getting good guidance. About whether or not to use oxygen or support staff working that direction using oxygen tanks or portable. Oxygen Ventilators Can Be really dangerous in terms of spreading viruses. They can cause You know saliva to be splattered Oliver around and it puts the first responder that particular read so these are really really difficult. Difficult QUESTIONS TO DEAL WITH. And there's no good answer for it. So what are some of the suggestions that have come out of trying to mitigate these risks well the BC government a- some recommendations and? I think we're really plainly worded and I know that other health systems across the North America have issued similar Sort of you know non-judgmental recommendations basically saying listen if you're GONNA use heroin any way try to do it with a friend. Invite a buddy over you know. Keep two meters apart But do it together so you can keep an eye on each other so one of you starts overdosing on the other spring into action and administer and lock zone. You know there's things like Just be cautious. Be Aware if you can switch to a less dangerous alternative do it. But the reality is those recommendations can only go so far. If people are seriously addicted to these drugs then you know they might not have a lot of all other alternatives you the symptoms of withdrawal can literally be fatal if you are sick on top of of withdrawal symptoms. It could be very hard on your heart or other parts of your body and it can be. It can kill you so you know. It's not as though it's as simple as saying okay. I'm going to stop doing heroin tomorrow. Fine next week. It is not that simple. I'm so what? Some jurisdictions have been looking at for a while which has finally sort of pull the trigger on just in the past week or so is administering safe supply allowing doctors to prescribe alternative opioids or alternative treatments to drug users in a much more liberal fashion than they were doing before so they required to getting an exemption from the Federal Drug Control Drug Acceptances Act and it allows doctors to say you know. You're a heroin user. Why don't you try this oral Methadone pill every day as an alternative? It's safe. It's reliable. The chances of overdosing are incredibly low and provides some of the same responses as heroin might. But you know what's in the drug you're taking. This is something that a lot of drugs are advocates. Have been talking about for decades at this point but it took this crisis for it to find. He's getting out the door. Tell me how that would work on the ground. So a user would find a doctor who's willing to prescribe or or would that be at a safe injection site or a clinic and just they'd get the drugs there. Well so this has been done on a very small scale across. The country already Specific groups and doctors and clinics have been administering Alternatives sometimes that's called OPIOID agonists therapies so providing alternatives to the opioid that these drugs are used to and then sort of monitoring it in a controlled fashion. And I think a lot of people think this is sort of out there in scary but we've actually been doing this in one form or another for many decades through Methadone. Methadone is a very kind of commonly prescribed OPIOID agonists And it's not perfect. You know it has been successful for a lot of people. And getting them off opioids and heroin and other drugs but it is a really imperfect solution withdrawal from. Methadone can in some cases be worse than withdrawal from heroin We have regulated and tighten control of it so drastically that a lot of people you know. Their entire life is just maintenance of Methadone addiction. Essentially they have to go to a pharmacy every morning. Be Given a you know a couple pills of Methadone The pharmacists have to want to watch them. Take it and then they go back home and come back and do the whole thing the next day. this therapy. This new set of guidelines from British Columbia aims to let doctors prescribe alternatives other versions of Methadone. Oral Morphine or others in a much more sensible. Common Sense Functional Way The new guidelines. Actually say that Pharmacies can actually deliver these drugs to the users doorsteps. Which is you? I think already a huge step forward. It would allow these drug users to get jobs in a way that they couldn't if they had to report to a pharmacy every morning to get their methadone. And some of these alternatives are just much better tolerated than Methadone. They're they're easier on the system The withdrawal is not as severe. So these these this is a big step for this is really significant And I think it really could be a life. Changing a lot of instances have you talked to advocates who work with users in the community. How big do they think this is an and why it took this for it to happen? Yeah so I had a good chat with Garth mullins. He's a drug user advocate Former user himself and he hosts the crackdown podcast which looks at drugs policy especially from the Lens of those who are the former users or current users. And he's optimistic about it you know. He's happy that this has been taken but he says it's it's really not enough and it it it's coming so late first of all it's bittersweet it's like why did we have to wait so long so many thousand people dead before making a move like this so it's a mix of sort of frustration and optimism in relief. Why did this take a pandemic to come about? Has Anybody spoken to that or give us an idea of if this is something that's been around for years why we're trying now? Yeah I mean I think the reality is just a a a real reluctance from governments to move forward on any of these sorts of measures. You know garth talks about this affair bed if you're GONNA says You know listen they you know they don't really see this human beings. They're worried about us as disease vectors. So that's why that's why the movement happened now because they're worried about US dying. They're worried about them dire You know which is not the way we deal with other public health. Crises right even look at the response to cove in nineteen. We're not dealing with people who catch this virus as being a burden on our public health system. We're not you know. Sort of you know racking our brains and WRINGING OUR HANDS ABOUT HOW? Maybe we can help. These people out. Were were responding rapidly and quickly to a pandemic. The speed of response to the opioid epidemic is just night and day. Governments have sort of Fred and worried. You know what happens if we start giving you know people heroin and this is a real kind of solution that has been on the table for a long time. Just prescribe people heroin. If people are dying from heroine they're gonNA buy any way because it's lace with no or whatever else why not just give them heroin if they're gonNA use it anyway right when it is? Give them the drug. They're going to use an so. You can ensure that the quality is consistent that if not least with other drugs that it won't kill them rate countries have done this. Switzerland has done this. Portugal decriminalized drugs if people can kind of rely on their supply And the the numbers are very heartening. They're encouraging it seems to work but governments. Here are just so reluctant because of the stigma that has been wrapped around drug use than certain drugs in particular And we're not seeing good outcomes from this everything we've tried which has mostly been criminalization has not worked yet. We seem completely allergic to trying something different. I think people like Garth and a lot of other advocates that I've spoken to over the years have just said listen. We need to start moving on. This people are dying by the thousands. There's there's tens of thousands dead Canada alone but we didn't need to be here. You know we could have made it so there was no overdose situation. Well while a pandemic it you know we could have worked on safe supply years and years ago. How is it that governments are so slow in acting here and I think you know the fact that it took this pandemic for even British Columbia arguably the most progressive government in North America on these things it took a covert nineteen for them to act? I think is sort of really underlines. Just how easy these changes could be but how reluctant governments have been to do them. Has there been any reaction Either federally or in other provinces to move DC has made any sense that other provinces might try to follow suit or try something different of their own On the federal level. You know the federal government very quietly made these things possible over the last couple of years. They've been slowly changing. The regulations reducing the red tape in the regulatory burden that would allow provinces and cities to do exactly that sort of thing but they haven't really encouraged it right. They've made it possible if jurisdictions want to do it but they haven't really taken leadership on this front so it's sort of a mixed bag there. I don't think you're GONNA see the federal government start pushing for more expanded access to opioids for for drug users But at the very least they've gotten out of the way so that jurisdictions who want to do this can but you know if you're going to start feeling optimistic about Governments actually taking action here. There's so many cases of governments actually going backwards Throughout the United States president trump and his attorney general William Bar have made it harder for safe consumption sites which is really the base minimum. You can do to reduce Overdoses they've made it harder for safe consumption sites to open and they've threatened at criminal penalty for those who try to open them Some groups have tried to fight that. But you're really seeing a mixed bag of success in Canada Premium Jason Kenney. Now BERTA has has sort of sworn to try to shut down some Some overdose prevention sites. So you know it's not really heartening the direction we're going we've dealt with this for so many decades we've already gone through waves of overdose. Crises and yet governments still seems so convinced that they can police their way out of this problem this time if there's more money for addiction clinics that will solve everything that will suddenly unlock the key to addiction. Then I think it's a fool's errand and I think governments know this that don't want to spend political capital on drug users that is that is the baseline thing here. The science the evidence tells us that OPIOID EGAS THERAPIES. Safe consumption sites and handful of other Solutions around address. Apply save lives. There are peer reviewed studies about this. That are very convincing. That basically are unanimous that these measures work and yet governments have been putting their head in the sand and pretending that they don't exist. All that stuff is just so frustrating that I do WanNa get back to to see because Lord knows we could use some positive steps right now so if if this shows the results that it has in other places in the world what comes next if BC's leading the way on this when you talk to people like Garth you know this is a big step. What's the next step? So this allows for opioid alternatives or opioids. That are not heroin or null to be prescribed. Patients You know what would be the really progressive and sensible? Next step I think would be to just give up on the idea that we can ever really restrict the supply of Heroin Sentinel Governments have been trying for a century to crack down on the supply of illicit drugs. And you know what things drugs are. More readily available than they ever were. We will never improve interdiction and policing to the point where we're going to stop people from getting the drugs they want. We should abandon that idea if you think the police will solve this problem. They're not going to. The police can do a great many things here in terms of going after violent criminal gangs that profit off of the drug industry but one of the best things we can do but for public health both for public safety and go after criminal gangs is just to start figuring out ways we can get some of these drugs to people in a sensible In a sensible way there had been conversations in Mexico about growing opium poppies and cultivating you know opioids or heroin For basically clinical use. Like what we're talking about a British Columbia right now you. It's really high time we figure out how to plug those two things together where we can cut out the cartels and the drug dealers and the criminal gangs and start. Prescribing people. Heroin opioids if they are addicted You know I think the measures. Nbc are a step in that direction. But we're not there yet. We're still trying to give them pharmaceuticals that You know we hope will be a good replacement for heroin and no but some drug users. I'm sorry I'm just GonNa keep using heroin so to that end. What are you GonNa do about that? Are you GonNa let them die? Are you going to just keep reviving them as they overdose? Because there's Nolan their supply they don't know about or are you going to start figuring out a way where you can provide them with the heroin. They're gonNA use anyway in a sensible way that maybe supports farmers who otherwise turned to a life of to turn to supplying the cartels in Mexico that cut out a lot of those gangs than actually you know. Let doctors have some oversight but how users are using those drugs this requires sort of abandoning everything we think we know about You know policing and drug addiction but these are the things that seem to work And I think British Columbia is getting there. Were still a couple miles away if not tens of miles away you know but I think we're slowly getting there and I think seismic shift in terms of how people talk about these issues. Now you have health authorities in British Colombia Ontario talking openly about drug decriminalization as unnecessary next step on the prime minister is being asked about it quite often. He's still basically says it's not on the table but you're hearing people talk about this openly former health minister. Jane Philpott talks openly about probably the need to move to be criminalization. So I think you're seeing such a huge shift in the way we talk about these things that it's no longer inconceivable that we could see some form of decriminalization or lead or legalize to supply of some of these drugs in the next five or ten years given all that then is it. Is it safe to say it would be difficult for B. C? To put this genie back in the bottle When we eventually do conquer the pandemic or along with a host of actions that governments across the country have taken. Is it something that expires when the current emergency does? I don't think you put the genie back in the bottle. I think you're gonNA start seeing positive outcomes from this right and you'll sort of things we've been building for many years. I'm and I don't think we're going to want to put it back in the bottle. I don't think people are going to see negative outcomes from giving heroin users or Morris steady and safe supply of some of the opioids. They use. I think anything you'RE GONNA see. Fewer people overdosing on on the streets. You're going to see more of these people. Getting into the workforce and you getting back into being Contributing members of the economy. I think you're going to see people who You know who who no longer are waiting in line up at the pharmacy for Methadone. I think you're going to see just a general improvement of a lot of these people's lives and I think that for people might be the sort of key that unlocks the reality that this is the solution not arresting them not trying to force them into addiction. Counseling that you know he's often ineffective and I think a suite of solutions that really let people either get off the drugs. They don't WanNa be on it anymore. That people get onto the safe supply. That's not causing overdoses or let them use the drugs. They WANNA use but in a sensible more regimented way. I think when people see that. That's working You know they're gonNA come around to it. And alternatively some people might not but I don't think they're going to see things get worse and I think as long as things that aren't getting worse you have a lot of political capital to keep moving forward even if it's really slow and steady while you obviously wish it didn't come From such an awful situation but It's good that something is finally moved us down this road. Yeah I you know I think five years ago I didn't. I don't think I would have assumed that I would have been this sort of Convinced that legalization decriminalization this sort of safe supply mechanism would be the way to go. But you know I've come around to this from reading the literature from talking to drug users from talking to doctors from talking to epidemiologists and I'm convinced I have not seen or read anything spoken to anyone that has disabused of the notion that this is the way to go. If anything I've just become more convinced the you know the more I walk through the downtown Eastside. The more I talked to people who have been using heroin for for twenty some odd years and who are finding that You know they were on death. Store better now can coming around because They've managed to find a steady supply of heroin or because they've they've moved onto to oral. Opiates so I think you know I'm I'm heartened that the the solution might be in front of us. I guess we'll we'll see when this is all over. Thanks so much for taking the time just thanks. Justin Ling has been covering the OPIOID crisis for a while. We expect he will stay on it as this develops. That was the big story. If you'd like more head to the big story podcasts dot ca you can find us there. You can also find us on twitter. We love to talk at the Big Story F. P. N. And of course we're in all your podcast players. Whichever one you want leave us a rating. Leave us a review. We love to read them. And as you know by now we want to hear from you too so if you want to send us a voice memo or a video clip you can record it on your phone and e mail it to the big story podcast at RCI DOT ROGERS DOT com. We received a bunch of them over the weekend. So here's some of it. Thanks for listening. I'm Jordan Heath Rowlings. We'll talk tomorrow. Sour sending isolation guess making any room possible An office during the week and then enjoying as much time as possible actually cooking dinner and eating together and drinking a lot of fun sit down. I'm going to work like taxes. Nothing better to do for the whole family but ready to try for my daughter. Just GonNa go download. What Sierra has honor her since. I never seem to be able to get all the documents from her directly Jordan. Today I was just baking cookies of my kids as just burke by cookies. Thanks I am trying to renew my face which I in fact in weeks I keeping a very very queen vacuuming and we roll up all of our roses. Mara we are going to scrub our lowers. Hope he has it staying healthy and staying taty.
Running for Co-Prime Minister And Raccoon Fight Club
"Always. Iraq. Welcome to save space, a weekly podcast about the news politics. Pop culture and anything else that comes up. My name is Vicky mo- trauma. And I am your host guiding you through this thrilling political climate here at say space, we are creating a safe space for bad takes to do that every week. We are joined by a couple of friends who help us make sense of the world this week. We're talking all about the PI election Pia is a small island, but a mighty one. And since it's been a long winter. We're gonna try to have some fun here to help us do all of that is guest coho, Sarah bows, about a senior writer at Chatelaine and panelists. Justin, Langer freelance journalist and host of this season of the CBC podcast uncover and also co host of the podcast Otto, Justin, Sarah, welcome to say space. Thank you for having us thing. Even letting me guest co host. Oh, yeah. Shutting up both of my podcast. You are the podcast king this year. Tired? On tuesday. Islanders on went all out to vote for the province's new leadership in this provincial election. Seventy seven percent showed up at the polls stations to cast their vote for one of the four parties running the Progressive Conservatives the liberals the green party and the end EP now that kind of a high turnout isn't particularly unusual and PI. In fact, this was only the third time that voter turnout was below eighty percent since nineteen sixty six so people and I love themselves voting for months. It has looked like this was the first major election in which the green party really stood a chance to lead the province since last fall. The polls have had that either ahead or neck and neck with the other parties in the end, though, voters gave the win to the Progressive Conservatives who will get the first chance to form a minority government just in UN to in the days leading up to the election, which you read about for the national observer, what did you see happening on the ground? It was the nicest most amicable thoughtful campaign. I think I've ever covered. It was actually really lovely. I think they're really needed a detox from the federal level. And I was just the perfect example. It's the kind of place where people would not just wait when the Streep wave at you. When you drive past them like I literally driving country road and someone like gave me a wave. And it was just like I got the campaign was, you know, unfortunately, when I was there. There was no campaigning happening. One of the green party candidates died in a tragic accident him and his young son died in a canoeing accident just days before the election. So the tar campaign was basically cancelled. So the kind of left me untethered kind of hunter around the province into sort of talk to people, but what was going on. It was cool as like p I is much the rest of the country economy's doing pretty well. And you know, people are not struggling to find work. But they're feeling the pinch of affordability issues. They're concerned about climate change. And they're just kind of asking themselves to be questions about what to do. Next in society. And it was interesting to watch a campaign actually address a lot of those those questions and and pretty like grassroots, right? It was a lot of breweries that you visited a lot of progress. Like the east coast early like just dependent on breweries, which is really really good to that. So the results came out and the PC's won the minority government. You know, people were saying, maybe you'll be the greens. But it wasn't there and the official opposition status though, which is a first for the green party in in all all the best ever done in a providence three seats. So why the sudden popularity for this party that has been so miniscule apart from having Maine so part of it part of it is on P specifically part of it is the leader. Peter Bevan bacon is making. Peter name. Baker. I got I got there. I know good tonight. Catch you know, let's fair that doesn't sound right. No. I have some syllables avowals wrong there. So tell us Peter Bevan Baker. He is not quite the model of of a green party candidate. You know, a lot of the green party candidates have done really well across the country have been biologists ecologists or environmentalists. Peter Bevan Baker is a dentist from the rural practice at Charlottetown. And he, you know, he's bored in Scotland he only became a Canadian citizen in the nineties, but something about him. He he ran again. And again, and again in PE, I and it just wasn't quite catching into the last election. He won a seat nine times one or two of them in Ontario. But that's right press of stamina early termination. And, you know, some during the campaign the way McLaughlin, the premium tried to paint him as his career politician, which I think is hilarious because it's like, can you really be a career politician if you failed every time, but people started kind of looking at going, you know, we know this guy there the moment. Where seem to say, listen, we are tired of the same parties the liberals and conservatives had traded government in PI since confederation hundred fifty years of just two parties people were looking for alternative for a minute. Look, it's going to be the MVP that shine where off pretty quickly, and then people turned to the green party, and the greens were kind of relating this vision that was really palatable to be honest. I mean, they're basically saying, listen, you know, we have a couple of priorities we wanna make sure people have living wage in this province. We want to make sure that affordability issues are dealt with. You wanna make sure that, you know, the sea levels don't rise swallow, the whole island, but also our budget's going to be balanced and Rafa bigger crazy, but we have sort of these long term, visions and isn't a nice alternative, especially when the parties are very much four year ahead sort of parties, the green party's talking about ten twenty five years in the future and people respond well to that. And we've lost that in politics in this country. You know that sort of forward thinking political vision and people responded really well, so with a mix of Bevan Baker himself, and and kind of the green party have vision looking forward. Kind of thoughtful. But not too scary. Kind of way. They're also like not doing this sort of fringe animal rights activism stuff as much anymore, right? Like their their promises. Our policies are actually becoming a lot more urgent right now that we're learning and talking about climate change and more enlightened ways, and they can sort of dovetail that with the economic message to also like your children's children, which is what all the parties really try to focus on like don't you care about the future? Because essentially, if you're voting party in your voting for the future, but you know, a lot of the discussion around climate change is like do you really wanna have a world that is, you know, apocalyptic for your children to live in? Right. I think this is like a market change it sort of Elizabeth May's vision of the green party, which is green politics touches everything rather than just focusing on the environment. Slowly. So that's a little bit of what the green party in P. I did where they said climate touches everything and every single way, and we're we're going to have policies at affected impact that. Yeah. That's right. And I mean. And a lot of the poses to sort of speaking to that sort of, you know, carbon neutral future where it's not just about, you know, of me from resorts industries also talking about, you know, a I and the automated of labor rarely the green party's you're saying like where all the parties on you know, how we're gonna do job displacement that come from automation. You know, win McLaughlin, premier ran on this campaign of jobs jobs jobs. I gave you a job bringing more jobs. Everyone jobs three-party say, yeah. Everyone loves working. But what happens in ten years when a lot of you know, the cashier jobs at the local grocery store are taken over by robots right around time. Right. Like to use the self-checkout. I try not to because I do I still like human interaction. I think like the green party is successfully trading on that message of like, we're all humans and this together. Yeah. You know? And let's like let's get a little humanity back. Liz maze done really great with humanity. I actually got to talk to what I was impeached on the phone both her, you know, she was pointed Bevan Baker and basically said like. Imagine him on the federal level. Like, he just looks. And sounds different. You know, he talks to other leaders in very respectful nice way, he talks to voters like they're human. He doesn't talk in sound bites. His entire except Harkin victory speech on Tuesday game second code victory speech was started out with Galong diatribe about you know, how much he was still heartbroken over losing Josh under the candidate who tried to a couple days before it was just such an unusual speech to see the one that I didn't appreciate when I was in PE. I I didn't see this until election night is the degree to which the PC leader is very much the same old, you know, the potential predestinated of the province is actually good friends with Peter Bevan Baker there, and they they ran the super respectful super thoughtful super kind campaign that did people responded really well to I think in part of the reason why I wonder if the story is actually funny, I wrote this really cynical depressed. Call them a couple months ago for vice you said nobody's going to be excited to vote in the federal election. Like, this is going to be as tiring in a cynical as it ever is. And I was genuinely genuinely depressed about the state of politics on the federal level having covered this enough years. Now, I am honestly really perturbed at how politics is playing out mean, it's nasty it's tiny it's angry. And I think you called me out for it being just very cynical. And it was so I think there's some degree. I do wanna start looking at how you know, how little pockets of politics can actually work better. Because maybe we are more like that politics will suck less. I mean, I think what tragically happened after Joshua Hayes passing was that the parties all in PI all sort of spontaneously without any coordination or any pressure on each other decided to stop campaigning. That's such a small town thing it is. But I thought I thought like I've been thinking about like how useful it is to just stop the politicians from talking at a certain point. And let people just talk it out, which I think he's did. Really wonderfully, which is that, you know, people who may be working to vote for the party or their particular candidate. We're still like, hey gonna vote which I think is a really meaningful and useful direction for politics to go into just say like the politicians have at this point said quite enough let the rest of us talk about and does wanna also raise that they had the referendum on proportional representation. And I think you know, certainly on the federal level. That's the one big broken promise that Justin Trudeau's liberals had right? Like, we're not gonna actually go through with discussing that. And also Justin Trudeau liberals being very feminist proportional. Representation is one of the really like there's a lot of good research to show that that's the way you get more women into politics, and like rather than have it be the sort of old party way. And that that PI alternately decided they did not want to go that route. But they actually respected, you know, they didn't they didn't wanna have sort of the low number of voters decided against last time. A tiny plurality voted for. But it was too few people turn turnover with so to me. I just thought that was interesting. They're willing to have those hard conversations at the federal level. Like, it just kind of like what else to complicated and probably politically unpopular to discuss. And you know, what it really would make a change for people. I think it's really easy to go is different. You know, pe- different. It's a small, but like why can't the rest of the country like that a lot of writings in this country are just like PA. I the Lord of them are quite small and real. I mean, if you live urban Toronto chances are you've never met your MP. But a lot of small towns across the country. You know, your p real, well, we're I grew up. Everyone knows the MP. It's not as though politics is completely different in the rest of the country. So what's PI? Yeah. You know, your p m L A rather. And he he or she in. Unfortunately, it's predominantly he now. But he or she responds to you and actually deals with Nino what they stand for. And you you vote for them because you know, and like them have that in the federal level anymore. And a lot of the times doesn't even matter because you're almost certainly gonna vote in line with the party almost every single time. The governor of the big long thing for foreign policy recently showing the candidate has one of the worst rates of basically party disciplined in the entire world. And it's really bad. We've lost entirely our connection to our local politician. I mean that's fair. I mean, I what I'm not about this election that was different. And I it has to do more with the P C's winning, which is that you know, we're seeing sort of like right-leaning parties win across the country in different capacities. But this PC campaign, and perhaps because it's PI had a more positive message, which we haven't seen for many almost any of the others. Maybe a New Brunswick it was slightly more positive, but this one has been sort of the most positive right leaning campaign that we've seen a longtime is. Not a vision for what the federal could look like hopes. I mean, did he king the assumingly the premium designate assume he gets a chance to form government. He specifically called out out Berta on election night. He spoke to the CBC. And basically said, you know, we ran a campaign that was supposed to be respectful and thoughtful and actually treated the voters. Fuck adults. Right. And he was that's in contrast and paraphrase, but he was that's in contrast to some other provinces that voted recently. And it was a really brilliant point. Because he basically said, listen, I'm conservative, I believe in you know, in responsible government. You know, I believe that's why it's personal responsibility. He wants taxes and all this. He's been critical of the way the liberal government implemented the carbon tax, but also he's not going to join the federal lawsuit against the federal carpet pricing scheme. She still cares about climate change. He his pledging to make PI carbon-neutral by some point in the next several decades, and ran this thoughtful respectful campaign that didn't result in sort of this, you know, vicious populism that we've seen from from other parties. So it is a great model for Wayne which. A conservative party can actually operate in a thoughtful respectful way. Really the point now where t to be critical of the way that you know, the Doug Ford's Jason KENNY'S run their their campaigns to be anti conservative. And that's you know, that's not the case. There's plenty of conservatives that I know some of whom worked for Doug Ford, or Jason Kenney who are freaked out about the state of conservative in this country. Because it's it's gotten mean, it's got nasty. And I think there's a real chance that the fate of the liberal party gonna go a similar direction as they get in the mud and start punching each other over it because I don't trust Justin Trudeau to run a thoughtful smart campaign next time, it's going to be just as mean as nasty because he's now so terrified but clinging to power that he the only way I think he's see the path victory is by going straight. They're Andrew Scheer. Joan. And finally, it's time for takeaways. This is the part of the show where we share our boldest bad. Opinions are rants are endorsements or whatever else we need to get off our chest. And frankly, I have something I have to get off my chest right away. Which is a piece of the Toronto Star by one Heather Mallick about stabbing raccoon, and it actually starts I stabbed record with a fork. He was after me. But to what purpose I cannot say your honor. I don't think food and I hope not sex. He was following me around the garden, and I couldn't shake him off a not unfamiliar sensation as I am frequently targeted by obsesses, just like visibly recoil wincing, just like it's bad enough that you stabbed it. It's worse than your impugning. It had sexual motives impressed. You got that close. I love this peace. Love it to tell. I think we'll lose two things one. I think she was trying to be funny, but unfunny people trying to. Leads to exactly this piece, which is like weirdly structure, and you're like involved in this staring chase at the raccoon. And then she eventually stabs it. And then divergence into this thing about, you know, people who stalk her it was it's a lot of a piece. It's not very funny, but she's trying to be funny. The thing I love about it. Most though is news isn't fun anymore. News isn't fun or funny anymore like partially because of the death of local newspapers partially because everything's become so serious and fraught there's not any fun in newspapers anymore. Like, I missed dumb stories about like moose came to our local Tim Hortons and tried to or the job. Stories like that at the post, basically like saying the national post has sense of humor. I mean, I these days, but when I was there it was huge. Like, thou make it on the front page lady stabs that. Terrible calmness. Like who who like aggressively breastfed mental Chong's baby leads to my response to this. And which is feel like women have been pulling the way in the media business of like getting reactionary like that people will be talking about. I mean think about it. That is the one Lee McClair your remember breastfeeding. Yeah. And then it's how they're Malik. And then it's Margaret one TV. And it's like I mean, we're doing they're doing all the work business are doing nothing to drive traffic. You know, true. Typical like women are getting it done. Yeah. Conrad Black like smoke PCP and like. County west show. The one origin ban and we've been trying to get Conrad Black to come smoke. Easy. Be. I mean, I mean. I want to see that he meant something. I mean, that's surely is one of the few giving us sort of like interesting weird dumb takes a lot of them very racist. But Conrad Black takes almost always like lifestyles of the rich and famous. We're just my friend. Mark Stein is struggling financially because people are suing him on TV rich. Rich. Nobody knows this. But Merck Stein recorded Anabel like he's also musician on the side. Stein. Conservative thought notoriously racist Slama phobic record like a doo-wop album of like, we're jazz music. He hasn't whole song roughly based on what's new pussycat. It's. It's called pretty sure it's new swear to God. I think it's called. I think I saw pussycat, but it's spelled in the weird like so Vesta away you need to stop. It's really funny. Just Conrad Black Sabbath, Mark Stein. Back to my take which is that Heather Mallick galas one a solid one like it managed to she's from horrific stuff in the past. It's been transphobic, she managed, right? He completely out of pocket wild, call without offending anybody. She didn't offend anyone with this raccoon piece. I don't think I mean. You. Complaint filed against her for screening for. I mean, she did she did stab a raccoon in the face. She was defending her home. Years ago in Toronto. There was a man who killed a raccoon in his yard with. I believe a shovel or Spade. And it was big local news. And so I'm amazed that will not really amazed. But like there was not that you know, history in the Tronto star newsroom on the half of the lawyers. No. It's honestly the best thing I've ever seen in my entire eighties. I thought I saw a pussycat. I thought I saw. I thought I saw none of jersey. Okay. You need to video link and. Video is he it's gray. Onkar sometime either trenchcoat for some unbelievable reason it just so earnest. Second. Happens when you have so much money. No, one says now all around the whole the whole predecessor video director person the whole premise of the song is like I think I saw pussycat. But then it's like, I wonder what thought it's it's sort of like being suspicious of this cat that's following him. Which is basically the Heather Mallick Cullum. All the way, he's not a dessert. She was specific it was a desert for when she got lower, you know, past the main dramatic entry. I also thoroughly sympathize with being a columnist and just being like I have nothing to say this week. Now, I have done nothing but have dinner parties day, and I've got nothing, and they want you to file thought that she would get some sympathy from people, and I'm sure she has I want like video footage of the standoff that she had, you know, would have been like we'll send a photographer matching like a mink stole like a for coat dark alley with one of those floodlights that goes on and off just got this. And I'd be like as a recommend be like, I have not messing. Club. It's gonna write about me. All right, Sara. What's your takeaway? Mine is less entertaining. But I was listening to the current this week. It was Earth Day. I think and there was a debate about whether women own the there was a story about women having taken a birth strike. So they were climate activists who are not having children because they feel like that is bad for the speaking of Elizabeth may like she has talked about population control. Obviously popular subject, but I just think that's a bad idea a child and as much as I like was late getting here. And I was like don't have children when I came into the studio because they merely he made me late. He's there's like such magic and having a child as much hard work as it is. So I think these people are I think you could just like raise a child to be much more environmentally conscious than we have all been. So I think it's about idea to not have children for the sake of the earth. A lot of people push back against that. Well, you may think wrong with saying like we generally should have less kids because it's kind of true. The problem is is that when you start making it like Paulousky, how do you actually enforce her implement that? I actually interviewed her about executives years ago dr- unless campaign, I called her up with what the hell's with your publish control policies. Go to suffer Canada. I'm like, okay. Other people basically, it was sort of she sort of saying, we extra bad, we need to promote reproductive health to, you know, especially like, you know, the develop the global south developing countries, which is a great, but do that because it affordable choice and has healthcare. Nothing. Is you wanna push population limits on the right? I'm I'm for that offer a reproductive rights and access Araya world, but it has to be about your own personal choice. Like, but I mean like now that I have a family, and I have like a mother, and I have a son. I'm just like if I was someone who wanted to have children, and I had the soc. Pressure to not have children because of like the planet exploding. I would I would resent that. But at the same time, I maybe could be a healthy message for people who really don't wanna have kids and have a lot of social pressure in their lives to have kids. This is a very convenient. Like, you know, what actually doing it for the planet, the planet grandmother because I'm saving the planet. Come across a little sanctimony is. Your granddaughter his the planet. Yeah. I understand what they're saying. Only insofar as I have nephew now. And I've never understood why children's toys R wrapped. I was like why is your much wrapping and packaging? Wrapping? And the thing is my nephew only likes the wrappings given up and I just give that boy paper shred shroud waste. I just think like kids toys kids things there. What kind of our consumptive about it or? Diapers. Like there are people who are like cloth diapers. And I'm like, I don't wanna spend my entire life washing clothes and also washing clothes takes up a lot of water. And I used to believe that diapers are what's causing sea levels to rise. Like, I just don't think there's that many babies doing that. Right. But like there's. Pooping ways to have a kid and be environmentally conscious. But if you wanna have kids, I love this excuse. There you go. That's total other side of the coin. A love it or dumped. Adopt. Holy crap. It certainly all their kids to, you know, people do not adopt older kids. And it's a really shame. You know? And it's about love people. It's about like how you train them per se. Although anyway. I'm not going to. Just what's your take away? Okay. Mine mine's. Don't. No. So I I read this call them for the globe, and assuming they don't kill the last minute. Oh, probably tomorrow someone's gonna pump that but I think it's time for political parties to get rid of leaders like single solitary, dude leaders altogether. I and this is the thing that I wish we're talking about. I think it's time for like I love the mistakes. Yeah. Continue I interested. I think it's time for co-leaders or like leadership committees or co leader in public school that go. Public school. There was maybe it's like head boy and head girl whatever kind of deal, but we were co-leaders. Yeah. It's actually. It's great places do this in in Quebec. Quebec solitaire, this kind of left wing party has co spokespeople like calling the leaders. And generally, it's it's a male male female. And if we're if there ever to win they would either pick one to be prime minister, and it will be kinda like outside or they minister would take turns. That's okay. And it's a really it's a lot of parties around the world are actually moving to this model. It's one that allows people more ordinary folks to get into politics and the Grenfell leadership positions because of the time demand isn't so aggressive. I actually talked about this. And she was like, I would love to do this, especially she basically said like the next person that comes in might have kids to worry about, you know, might not have like endless time to devote to telling me she gets one day off a month. And that's not feasible for a lot of people. If you split the job between two people you don't have to but it so much. It's doable. I mean, just into the New Zealand minister took time off because she didn't had occasion to six weeks off. That's all nothing. But like she like the model for like you don't need a specific individual. And hold them wheel the power. But the thing is that because you didn't really put her deputy in charge. I think she was kind of worried about look like he was a lame duck. We're looking like, you know, whatever. So she actually was still working even while she was on maternity leave. She was taking signing documents briefings that sucks you should be able to take kids really got like rush into it. And as a as, you know, I'm attorney leave right now. And I'm working azoff raising this kid and trying to learn how to keep them alive. And also like sit up and crawl do things that he has to do. But yeah, like, I'm also trying to like hustle in my career to and I I love that flexibility. But at the same time, it can be like a lot of pressure to you know. But I'm more on the side of like, you know, I I like that. There is, you know, support for trying to do all of those things, but they're really to be more support to help make that happen. I also like if I was ever involved like wanted to get involved in politics. I like the co leader model because I was one in grade eight. You already have the experience necessary for co prime minister twenty twenty who would you have is your the episode that? Who would you have is your obviously, thank you. I am. I'm the opposite persuasion, which is that I've been into many feminist clubs you need a dictator. Sometimes you just need somebody who's going to be like, this is what we're reading this month, and I will brook. No, we're from. Vicky is for dictators. Yeah. I think we should actually just only have one prime minister ever, but they have to corral. Whatever party gets elected. Oh. Approach with Megan be prime minister. But she might have to lead the conservatives. You know? I love it could be in power for for a long time. I like messy politics say all right? Well, that's it for this show this week. Thank you so much to our guest. Justin, Ling, and my coho, Sarah. Bozo Justin how can people keep up with you? Me just underscore leg on Twitter foamy. They're saving things that me there at Serra, Bose volunteer. I'm always sort of sharing photos of my dog. That's about all I do these days very cute dog. So this sodas recorded vocal fry studios and produced by the amazing door says let me you can find us on itunes by going to. It's a safe space dot com. Please leave us a rating and review if you like the show because we love hearing what you have to say you can also get in touch with us on Twitter at it's a safe space, and you can get in touch with me on Twitter at trauma safe-space comes out every Friday until next week. Stacey.
S3 Bonus: The Village at Stonewall (World Pride New York)
"This is a cbc podcast discover what millions around the world already have audible has canada's largest library of audiobooks including exclusive content curated by and four canadians experienced books in whole new way were stories are brought to life by powerful performances from renowned actors and narrators with the free audible app you can listen anytime anywhere whether you're at home in the car or out on a jog the first thirty days of the audible membership or free including a free book go to www dot audible dot cia slash cbc to learn more good afternoon my name is justin link i am the host of uncover the village podcast but the cbc and we're here in new york city at the world human rights conference in front of a live audience that you folks the ball guys we produce take a deep dive look into the murders of eight and gay men in toronto by serial killer bruce macarthur and we look at murders going back decades many of which have remained unsolved but will we also try to do with his podcast switch to show some of these bigger questions what happened in these cases what did that tell us about policing about society at large what would the social forces it allow that's happened and we looked at the point where the pure community in canada's stood up and said enough now were here pretty suspicious occasion is world pride and it's the fiftieth anniversary of the stonewall riots which ignited the clear rights movement it's the fiftieth anniversary of the day that police raided the stonewall inn and forced people out into the streets now we're gonna talk about stonewalling about the legacy of those riots but first we're gonna go international earlier this month butts wanna decriminalized homosexuality brazil legislated homophobia as a crime and ecuador and taiwan legalized same sex marriage but while there's been progress in austin feel like we've taken two steps forward and one step back my next guest know that situation all too well just stern is executive director of outright action international which advocated for lgbtq rights abroad end to my left is prince the vendor go hill he's the first openly gay prints in india and founder of the lecture trust a charity advocating for the lgbtq community in indian state of good ride thanks for joining so i wanna start you know it is the fiftieth anniversary of stone valley to her both here in new york city what's on your mind pride so a i have come to celebrate it this moment which america because just last year as we all know we have a bond a landmark judgment in india which i had honestly speaking not expected to happen in my lifetime and i think this is a victory or bigotry big g or hypocrisy and a victory for human rights or a little bit more about what the decision there a lot of misconceptions about this law which people taking those targeting only be a homosexual population but the truth is that this law was targeting the entire country it was not a log only the homosexual relations but it was about heterosexuality has better because this law says that any kind of sexual intercourse which penetrator in nature but doesn't result in row creation is illegal which means that even a married man and a woman if you hadn't dodging insects then they can have sex only if they produce a baby which is a total violation a human right i mean if you have a right to have sex without british singer baby you cannot you cannot imprisoned somebody daniels imprisonment i'm fine for having sex without producing a baby so it was a basic human right issue off a at every individual but of course it was a the lgbt community because victimized for the that's the reason we had to lock the doors of the court to seek justice and to say that he's recognized as we we are existing we need our rights to be given to us by jessica over the last year have we seen major success is i like i said two steps forward one step back we've seen some of those cases internationally but we also increases of new laws targeting queer people that is such a hard question to answer the positive what were the good things that happened last year there were a lot of things that we should be celebrating over the past year and you know i think we should leave with that because pride is both about you know protest and demanding are rights but it's also about recognizing how far we've come so it was just jotting down some of the countries that i've been watching over the past year and really celebrating and we talked about india we talked about 'em taiwan we talked about botswana we talked about ecuador i mean countries that don't have a long history of lgbt i q legal recognition have taken a huge step forward actually as i was on my way to this conference i was on the phone with a former government officials from angola end goal is the first country in the entire world in world history to reform it's penal code and on the one hand her roic lee decriminalize homosexuality which in of itself is something to be celebrated and the only other hands to bring about the peanut position of homophobia in the workplace it's completely amazing and this is not from one of the usual suspects countries so so were definitely seeing progress and were seeing progress in unlikely places don't care about well you know i'm an active it so i always like sort of balance between saying we can change the world and we must change the world because were living with crisis and i do really wanna emphasize see amount of work that we have to do you know were sitting in new york city we have the luxury of sitting in law school right now we can walk into this building without fear of arrest and we can walk out of this building without fear that journalists are gonna photograph us and we're gonna end up in the paper tomorrow outed for who we are and what we care about i was thinking a little bit about turkey when i was on my way here in turkey city after city has band pride festivals so when you march on sunday and when you celebrate pride this week when you think to yourself oh my god there too many activities that are lgbt i q related this week just think about all of her friends around the world who don't have that luxury who actually are taking their live into their hands for honoring pride so obviously a lot of change can happen until people come out of the closet this is been her experience north american pressure brits vendor tell me about coming of free you you know it wasn't just coming out in a country that's still had anti sexuality ready sodomy loss in the books but you come in in a royal family where that wasn't necessarily accepted and certainly hadn't been done before i mean it's hard enough coming out of the clear kid in canada i could only imagine if there's a lot more hill declined for you without like so i have been a no working for the as you bt community for several years before even i made this decision i know i wasn't happy with the vape the mindset of the society is in spite of the fact that our country has such a rich a cultural heritage on homosexuality existing in we have evidence of that existing in our commerce withdrawal i'm severed temples and a text a a a written in the in india but at the same time everything is stop and not spoken about dabbled there is no education there's no sex education in our education system so this hypocrisy because prevailing this bigotry richer revealing in our society actually forced me to take the plunge because i wanted people to talk because we're all silent we were we were we were we were not even allowed to say the word gay you know so i won't that you gotta watch will be spoken in the day to day language and mainstream my my whole papas was that i need to break the stereotypes i need people to talk and to kind of mainstream on issues whether it's in the film industry but this in people's homes it's in education shouldn't it's in government it's in parliament so that was the whole idea and that's why i look this isn't what was the reaction like it was a it was a kind of an upgrade which happened in which a shock waves each night up to brought in free in chicago toggle so you can imagine the tide had a great time back but that one eighty i wanted the job it should clear up controversy just got i'm in my own life is at stake out a surgeon to be cured my apologies abon titles stripped off my diaper excommunicated disarmed disinherited so just like you're going up against the guy but i i knew the nice myself that i haven't done anything wrong oh i'm through through my set aside and i'm sure and honest to others end up voting in india again that's a misconception which a lot of people up around devoting that it is illegal to begin india which was never the case it was never going to be gained india in fact as those telling even though homosexual acts was illegal but saw type of sexual act you know so how does that make dino about you know i mean even heterosexuals will guarantee that understanding was that i knew the fact of the law soul that encouraged me to move ahead jessica over the last couple of years we've seen this shift kind of away from you know this this liberal push throughout the world to this much more liberal politics no populism nationalism has it become harder for us to advance the cause of lgbtq you people around the world when we have someone like viktor orban in europe when we have everyone in turkey has become harder because in our own backyard things seem to be getting worse for queer people absolutely i don't think it is is business as usual i i don't think we should reid the news every day andy reid about the rise of right wing dictatorships any erosion of human rights and the rule of law and saying this is just a bad news day i think we should actually acknowledge that there is a dramatic shift happening in democracies around the world and in fact the notion of democracy is not something we take for granted imperfect though they have been in equitable though they have been and within that context of a rise of populism ethnic nationalism white supremacy reinvigorated racism and sexism and homophobia and transphobia lgbtq people are also more vulnerable so where outright works which is you know broadly in hundred ninety three countries globally we are receiving more urgent pleas for help from lgbtq people everywhere and sometimes it looks like someone attack me on the street and sometimes it looks like are lgbt q organization has been shut down you know in in guam joe china to lgbt q two organizations were shut down in january that didn't make global news and some of that has to do with the tactics used by local chinese after this and some of it has to do with the fact that it's actually nearly impossible to keep up with all of the places says where lgbtq rights are being eroded and so i do think it matters enormously i think it matters when formerly friendly or alad governments like brazil like d u s are no longer or a source for anything good and actually have become a part of the problem and i think you know giving your audience is particularly important to say this is when lgbtq friendly governments like the canadian government really have to pick up the slack really have a lot of work to do because in places where people are unsafe friendly diplomatic communities and international solidarity can mean the difference between life and death even as we've seen progress in some countries but also feels like there's even a step back internally obviously india's decision to repeal the sodomy law great news are things progressing otherwise in india are are things looking up or is there kind of attention that's still exist in india with seven grain homophobia transphobia so yeah so definitely a a v achieved a legal recognition of the community but this is just the beginning of a new challenge which is now to fight for the rights from the society because a lot people are not happy with the support decision so that's why the foundation of this legal recognition would help us in wayne county community is going to the society's to to get acceptance and understanding better understanding of the community so i back to some of the challenges of course india is progressing especially with three got some time gender rights because even before a dog the this law changed in a country in twenty fourteen the supreme court of india has a given us the rights to the time genders and currently bill is being lost in the parliament to make it a knack to get protection to the time genders to give them lights to education has social entitlements men's and not a lot of benefits i've been given to the engine and so that has been i would say that has been a broker that's which is happening in our country you work a lot with clear youth in india do get the impression from them that things are really meaningfully changing on the ground is it easier for them to come out to easier than it was for you that is mixed jumping in there are a lot of people in the community who are willing to come out and they are unwilling to 'em again their parents and not get succumb to marriage pressured but there is a fear of being torn are from homes a lot lot of of now needs to be done even if they're not us discrimination existing in the corporate world there so similarly there's there's work needs to be done for me comes thinkpad in dancing which we are doing so that's one step at the same time you have to walk badly educating and at the same time these kinds of situations just got at the end of may president trump tweeted congratulations and happy pride which i think people were surprised price by to begin with but he also said that he would be part of his mission to ensure the decriminalization of homosexuality abroad is there any stock to put it in that promise from from the president and and especially given his track record at home i mean what's up with that notion that we really any movement from the trump administration on progressing the rights ville i'm looking at lower audience right now i think there is some question i think it's hard to encourage people to celebrate an honor pride when you're systematically dismantling transgender rights in this country and i think it's hard to look at the track record's of u s president without seeing a series of escalating failures on lgbtq rights and the rights of other marginalized populations who also have queer members of their community we have seen historic legal victories in recent years i think the way the uss could be most supportive is not standing in the way funding local and international lgbt i q organizations that have community based relationships and networks and having analysis of the local conditions and also by reacting when their gross human rights violations happening i don't remember anything from the trump administration when over one hundred men who were perceived to be gay were arrested and tortured in chechnya that is the lowest possible i mean if you can't respond to math arbitrary arrest end end torture then you don't actually have the credibility to talk about human rights agenda you know the uss withdrew from d you ends human doman rights council and has been systematically blocking human rights affirming resolutions after you when we expect better from the u s we expect a historic focus on civil unpolitical writes in opposition to violence silence andy you ask ken instead better let me ask both of you i mean a lot of the time the conversation on international scene kind of begins and ends with decriminalization it's sort of once we repeal all those laws the british imported to these countries and once homosexuality city is legal are job here is done yeah does the conversation it open up into bigger piece of that whether it's you know social housing for queer people in in the global south or and in countries have a more recent history with a you know talking about lgbtq issues whether it's policing whether it's security you know what where did this conversation you go and then what we need to start looking towards that should make sure the queer people abroad are just illegal but you know there were a few years ago when every private foundation i would secrets would say you know when we talk about are lgbt q priorities are priorities are decriminalizing homosexuality and i would say but that's not enough of course it's not enough why would that ever be enough why would the removal of negative laws ever be enough an accident there many countries that will not decriminalize homosexuality in our lifetimes or in several lifetimes to we have to be more nuanced multifaceted and more ambitious and so where should we actually go we should focus on positive right we should focus on supporting lgbt i q organizations shins in every single country in the world that matters that produces long lasting change the track record's shows the decriminalization is not ambitious enough for us yeah through i ticket for from relatives he got said there's a lot of all to be done i mean we just need to keep talking i mean if you don't have to silence and just talk and try in a dark cloud so that people your you people listen to you and get the change happened that's a great place the end up i wanna thank you all for joining me the vendor thing go hilly the crown prince of the measure of russia pit button goes right india he's also the founder of the lecture trust a charity advocating for the lgbtq community in the indian state of good arrived just stern is executive director of outright action international which advocates for lgbtq rights abroad and i'm your host justin link we have one more pedal stick with so much for next battle we wanna unpack a little bit of lgbtq communities past present and future future care saint james is executive director and co founder of the new york transgender advocacy group eric so we're in hiv aids activists and the co founder of act up in catherine frankie is a professor of law gender and sexuality at columbia university in new york plays off my friend thanks for joining us anyway yes you're only ask you a really personal level how you feeling i mean it's been a tough year to it'd be trans i mean it's been a tough year being the community in general i think but you know a lot of the progress that we've made in america over several years i think started having backwards in the past year not a very personal level how you feeling i think you know there's a saying that were using community understanding like progress it's not linear you know so we have years of progress so we had years of progress under the obama administration now were seen on that progress been eradicated so i'm feeling left behind and you know in in i'm feeling what a lot of my community members voice austin when i 'em convene with him weather weather here in new york city are nationally is that were being left behind were being erased again and so that is of great concern saturn to me you know like i focus on policies a lot but at the same time i also understand the importance of having a contingency plan to addressed immediate needs of my community because you know reformer gender gender gender expression now discrimination that passed after seventeen years right so that's great but renowned but my community is still lagging behind when we talk about employment opportunity housing we live in a city that is becoming more and more gentrified so these issues are impacting communities source of income discrimination you know so these are things that we have on me you know because i speak on behalf of so many who have yet to find their voice you know so i feel it's important to really highlight that you know world pry you know i think this is gonna be great for for some but not for most you know and so just really affects important to really make sure folks understand the fight continues ten you you said left behind do you feel that way by you're government or buyer community as well i mean do you think these lgbt part of the equation has done enough to continue advocating for the t in the queue and every other letter they're now you are you all are catching up you know i i will say you know folks in the lgbt community are understanding that you have to invest in the trans community the fact that we've been after thoughts but so long in this fight fight that we spearheaded there's a lot of catching up that we have to focus on in his first start to equity investing in our community and catherine you know you're both critical of the way the pride sort of exists now as as a party is a kind of a corporate event where did it go wrong fried butter after one way shape or form fifty years where did it loses its way in your view but one of the things we've seen is the corporatization of the movement itself in the form of large nonprofits fits that have a very almost corporate model and how they're run largely wiz privileged white people at the top of the organizations and boards comprised of privileged white folks and so they see themselves more accountable many of these organizations due to those corporate boards then to a much broader community now i'm a law professor i make little lawyers is my day job 'em not in this building where new york law school now but another law school in the city an m one of the things i think that's also a problem is it's so many of these organizations end are movement are lead it led by lawyers and lawyers fix the kinds of or for creators are politically rise in the sorts of things but lawyers can fix marriage is one of them and the lawyers did fix the marriage problem 'em but in a way the left behind an awful lot of folks who don't wanna get married can't get married and have a politically critique of marriages as i do m a n mitchell marriage was in many ways and extremely conservative and kind of modest politically goal you know karen noted how some of these organizations in new york state have left behind so many members of our community that state wide gay rights organization in new york state closed closed after we gained marriage equality in the state because they felt there was nothing else initiated ccomplish just re mission accomplished even before we passed enda in the state legislature the care i mentioned that created you know basic protections unemployment climate based on sexual orientation and gender identity there is so much more work to do but they agenda get set by and large by people who don't suffer the kind of forms of discrimination in disadvantage sitter economic babysitter gender identity entity babysitter based on race immigration status of rains a different issues never mind hiv positive people in our community any other broad set of health related issues that we all face in what is largely a healthcare system that is for profit and privileges the life sis gendered people i i would agree with everything that you you said and a you know i helped start act up and when a number of us took to the streets and you know put are bodies on the line in got arrested time after time after time disrupting governmental organizations presidents vice presidents you know heads of congress people that were running pharmaceutical companies people started the get afraid of us and the media started to listen to us to hear why we were so pissed off and and what are messaging was in a you know we we gave a face to a not only people living with hiv but lgbtq people a and let the world see that hey we're human beings things just like everybody else you know we have rights that spurred more and more people come out so everybody knew somebody who is lgbt q and so that gave us power and got us listen to a but then in came the gay white men of privilege of who kind of like you served all that power took all the seats at the table the da's active is like fought for a in started bringing forth agendas like gays in the military or or or marriage equality that you know a lot of people especially people who aren't really privileged you know could give a shit about they're they're concerned about you know a food security about getting a a place to relive getting a job where they can earn a living wage hey jen that privilege and the collection of like a corporate lgbt groups interested in investing in pride i think is what took the gay liberation marches and events to be celebrations and dancing boys and speed owes instead of like people talking about the rights that they they need end the violations at they face on a daily basis it one thing that seems to always be a consistent part of the conversation around a struggle for clear rights is policing i mean whether it was pleased kicking down the doors at the stonewall inn or whether it was you know police arresting act up a activists policing the always be on the other end of this equation but recently you've seen a lot of pride march is welcomed police into the prayed with open arms you've not releasing policing be part of the discussion by a lot of these large in geos or organizations that been frustrating frustrating did not see policing be a bigger part of this conversation yeah absolutely you know black and brown communities especially teasing nc see communities are not particular fans of the police department 'em you know there tends to be a lot of hype of policing black and brown body's not only in in in the city but nationally so the police department is not necessarily friends of of art community we often see them and believe in to see us as suspects so we don't really have that that comfort with the police department you know and it's getting even worse as i said earlier because of gentrification 'em you were just really hyper police in ways that we were not in the past i think one of the problems is is not only with the police but it's about the whole a judicial legislative a system that allows laws to be brought forward and policing practices to be brought forward that trample people's a civil liberties and empower the police enabled the police to abused as members of our community a specially of people who are are trans or or or gender non conforming because they may not have the power to a you know get a fancy lawyer or to get sympathetic press a to cover their issues and so i think we do need to return to more of those street demonstration types of practice but we always have to keep in the back of her mind how we do that in a manner or that doesn't endanger are active in center community especially those that are the most vulnerable amongst us people of color people were trans gender non conforming no you know we tell ourselves the community that the things we learned in the past the lessons we learned the strategies we learned are supposed to be the ones we have going forward stop the pushback continuously push that are more electric court justice in a lot of ways you haven't really seen that you know a lot of the larger actress organizations and or lgbtq organizations feel a bit riderless i think all three of you have described a fair bit you know i've been obsessed with history a lot recently it's what we've done the podcast looking back and i'm realizing that a lot of deep history of the community isn't well documented lives there oral histories and a lot of cases lives in people's memories not necessarily written down or or or broadcast interview away i guess if you were to give to the next generation a piece of advice or story or or something the direct them what would it be gary let's start with you i always bring up act up how acta didn't wait on the government to step in you know so i i always used that when i talked to the black and brown gnc community here in new york city as well nationally and is how to speak truth to power to mobilize without waiting for your government government that has consistently fail black and brown communities here in this country and so i talk about what is you're contingency plan so it's really important for us to really talk about how do we create insular thriving communities why were dealing with the administration like were dealing with now until i saw on the conversations you know it's radical but i suppose important first have been committed to having them come from taxes so in texas we have a lot of ghost towns that you can purchase so one of the conversations i'm happy when folks is like what would it look like if we put money into pot to purchase a town that is win for us and by us you know his radical you know but that's something we need to look at like if we're being targeted then there needs to be ways that we can create spaces where were able to thrive in in the gulf war one another without all this hype of policing that is going on now and even that idea is not it is one that was exist in the sixties and seventies early eighties and creating sort of homo centric clear centric communities whether they be buildings are houses or or towns so i guess to some degree ever just sort of real learning the lessons we should have learned twenty thirty forty years ago eric what do you think yeah i think we are trying to learn the lessons from many years ago i mean you started off by saying you know we haven't really documented are history and and there are some of us who are like pissed off about they rewriting of history that's being done now by in a lot of cases people were really involved in activism levy eighties and nineties and the two thousand then you know were trying to systematically archive of that history as it really happened one of the things that a project that i'm pushing it is the idea of you know documenting the history of hiv response a and then literally examining it in setting up teaching modules that can teach people about how do you do community organizing how do you do consensus building a how do you do a press release how do you do a demonstration you know how do you do a legal challenge a class action lawsuit or whatever building on the history of act up and i do a lot of talking and give a lot of lectures around that about telling people that if you wanna fix their problems you gotta do your homework if you've gotta come up with a clear a background statement on what the problem is and and and you have to like have a clear list of demands with a un action plan on how you think those problems can be addressed you have to have a the confidence that you know your group or you as a single individual can actually change history and and actually solve a problem and then you have to as as curious said go in you know speak truth to power and demand that you know the human rights or the problems that you or trying to address s are honor the in terms of the the rights are honored in that the problems you're trying to correct at are are address and then you have to fight like hell and not give up until you succeed in having whatever the problems or the human injustice rectified proper so in my last book wedlock the perils of marriage equality i asked the sort of posed the history of marriage say form of liberation for both the gay community in for african americans in this country 'em at a about really asking the question of whether we can truly be free through recognition by the state so what i did was go back and look at the history of what it meant for african americans to marry for the first time at the end of the civil war how important that was and what kind of freedom that actually enabled and what it really did create a new relationship of black people to the state that was in some ways reproducing forms of enslavement in racism ism 'em that i think i we oughta look we should have as a gay community look at what it meant for us to be free through the institution of marriage today where were inviting the state into are intimate relationships immediately after after being criminalised so in some ways i think taking a break from the state is probably not a bad idea for people for whom the state is never been are friend and particularly for the people of color in our community that's the case some members of our community have a romance with the idea of the state paying attention to us in a positive way through the institution of marriage perhaps they're serving in the military serving in the police that sort of thing and i think that's kind of politics we oughta question through looking at are history through thinking about how groups like act up actually saw the state is a problem rather than as part of the solution an end focused the politics of activism abound around hiv on empowering the community of educating ourselves selves empowering ourselves in proposing solutions extra creating solutions to care for each other rather than looking to the state to do it the state will never be are friends and i think building a kind of suspicion of the state into politics anais romance with community is probably the better message to give to the next generation or if they go through so much so incredibly enlightening care saint james is executive director and co founder of the new york transgender advocacy group or so here's and hiv aids activist and cofounder backed up and capital frankie is a professor of law gender and sexuality at columbia university in new york thanks so much thank you i wanna thank everyone for being with me end thanks to you podcast listeners for tuning into a special bonus episode of uncover the village where live from row pride in new york city on the fiftieth anniversary of stone will you can listen to the entire series of uncovered the village wherever you get your podcast
Could decriminalizing drugs save lives and fix the opioid crisis?
"Last week the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police came out with Gobsmack or of a report. In the announced their support for decriminalizing the personal possession of illicit drugs, drug use and addiction they said is a public health issue, and so simple possession should be treated with health and social services rather than through the criminal justice system instead of arresting drug users. Would support getting them help and access to safe consumption sites, and even safe versions of drugs. It's an idea. Researchers and people who work in addiction have hammered away at for decades. But it's quite another thing. When the association representing police chiefs stands behind it as a way to save lives and address the opioid crisis. What does this mean for drug policy in Canada? Is it the first serious step toward decriminalization and what happens next? I'm. Superman Ian sitting in for Jordan Heath Rawlings and this is the big story. Joining me. Today is Justin link an investigative reporter based. Montreal, who's covered these issues at length? High destined thanks for joining us. Avenue? So last week, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police released this report that endorsed decriminalization for simple possession of illicit drugs. Can you break down that report for us a little bit? What what? What did they recommendations entail? Yes I mean it's. It's a pretty ordinary re report. The association chiefs of Police Basically said that they want to see a system where individual drug users are not arrested or even find or prosecuted or even jailed for simple possession. It sound extraordinary in our current context. This is something that public health officers in Toronto and British Columbia have both endorsed and something that has been surprisingly in the mainstream the last couple of months, but this this is a group of police chiefs. I mean these are not necessarily who you think of when you when you could have imagined somebody calling. Calling for wholesale drug criminalization, this is a group that was even I think skeptical of the idea of marijuana legalization now calling for what could be the most extraordinary and substantial change to be not just policing the justice system in maybe a century, or at least decades at the very least it's a pretty significant shift, and it's a pretty you know. Noticeable shift in their policy. Yet I mean it. It is astonishing I have to say I was pretty gobsmacked. Things like harm reduction, and so on our ideas that have been around for a couple of decades, but not in this precinct. What is the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. It's exactly what the name implies it is. It is an association of all of the chiefs of Police of I pretty much every police service across the country including the rcmp you know, it is a group that is the highest level of law enforcement in this country I mean, either you don't really have any other form where police agencies sit around a table and discuss issues like this. You know I, think the the direct comparison would-be kind of the. Federal Municipalities or the Federation of came as a Paladin rather have the mayor sitting around a table, discussing infrastructure and public transit, and so on and so forth. This is basically that, but for policing so this is very very significant and their position. Before this was clearly not did not lead one to think that this announcement would becoming now, have they? Do you have a sense of what triggered? These recommendations? Do they say or do you have a sense of? How long this might have been in the works. I think it's the evidence. Is You know I don't WanNa? Make it sound like the. was, entirely, throw the book at. old school, policing tactics for drug users before this, because that's not quite right for for some time they have been coming around to the ideas of harm reduction. They have been supportive of safe consumption sites. They've been supportive of some of the tenants of harm reduction for some time but you know they wrote a report into this and seven that basically said any sort of principles around harm-reduction Amino should take a back seat to policing an interest expressed skepticism around a lot of those harm reduction tactics, and you know these are please agencies. They still believe or at least publicly state. That you know arresting people for drug possession Noah's especially in significant quantities, arresting people who are using drugs in public areas, arresting people who have a stash of drugs, these are police departments who still believe in arresting and charging at prosecuting and potentially jailing those people. This statement is almost a contradiction of what a lot of police agencies across the country are doing on a day to. To Day basis I'm so. You know what led to this shift I? Think it's the numbers and the research and I think the seismic shift in the conversation that has happened over the last couple of years like I. said You had. You have two of the most prominent health officials in the country saying that drug criminalization and safe supply are the only routes forward to address what? What is essentially a pandemic and you know that the only sort of path forward is one that the skills back the policing and let's health agencies take the sort of driver see when it comes to managing this crisis and you know I think the the numbers themselves are underscoring urgency. You may have seen in the last year some optimism because the number of overdose deaths. Deaths in this country declined in two thousand nineteen. It looked like we were getting this crisis under control. That is going out the window. We may not have noticed it because of the covid nineteen pandemic, but the overdose crisis is worsening right now. Just in May Twenty Twenty alone hundred seventy people died in British Columbia loud. That's more than the entirety of the province loss to. To covid nineteen, it's double. The overdose deaths from the same month twenty nineteen. It is on track to be just as bad as twenty seventeen at two, thousand, eighteen, the two worst months or sorry, the two worst years for the overdose epidemic in British Columbia, and British Columbia has sort of been a bellwether or weathervane for the rest of the country. You know we've seen a lot. Lot of the problems start there and then move eastward. So you know by these numbers? Things are bad getting worse and showing no sign of abating. You've been on this show before talking about the opioid crisis for those who aren't aware of the full scope of eating of talked about the recent months. Can you give us a quick sketch of the crisis and how much it's impacting? Impacting the country. Yeah, I mean this. This is devastated. We lost tens of thousands of lives to the overdose epidemic, and you know I think we as a country and gotten quite complacent about it. We tend to think these are heroin users matter of time. These are people who just US News News, and we'll just always eventually die, but it's just not real, not the reality. Reality of what's happening here, a lot of the people who were losing to the overdose epidemic Yes, some of them are long term drug users on their long-term heroin users, but plenty of these people were still able to hold down a job. Plenty of these people were still able to interact with friends and family. They were You know what we would consider. Functioning vio- people and they're being lost to this epidemic because of tainted supply now on the flip side of that I don't WanNa make it sound like there are still a huge number of people who are just naturally going to die here. You know these are. There's plenty of drug users who if we're given a little more time could get their addiction under control could get it. Managed could seek. Support could seek. Seek treatment, and could you know go on to kind of get out of the the depths of addiction? And of course there's plenty of people who just needed to reach and who you know I think had a had a real a path forward me not to stop using altogether, but at least get their their usage under control so that they could hold down a job or you know could hold down more stable. Stable relationships, so you know there is a real diversity of drug users in this country and I don't think we often think of it in that respect now has the fennel crisis kind of changed the face of that a little bit. That's exactly what it is, so the actual of drug users in this country has not shifted all that significantly from the eighties nineties two thousand to today We've actually seen the shift. Shift in is what drugs are in the supply you know heroin use has been relatively steady, but overdoses due to heroin have skyrocketed. Why is that? It's because Federal Carrefour known other other similar drugs have gotten into that supply and have made using some of these drugs, basically a game of Russian roulette in a lot of circumstances, the drug users. No, it's in the supply aren't sure to what degree in the? The supply or don't know the potency of what's in the supply. It is fundamentally not an issue of drug use. It is fundamentally an issue of drug supply. There is no way you can police your way out of that problem. It is not possible. We have tried this, you know. The old definition of madness is trying the same thing expecting different results. That's exactly what we're doing. And what we're doing is pushing A. A lot of these people to the fringes of society, and were forcing them to use inside their home or a friend's home you know in the shadows away from the public, and that's when people overdose and die when there's no one around to save them. There's no one around to administer naloxone. There's one around a call nine one one and that has been the great success of safe consumption sites is that? That we've managed to save thousands and thousands of lives because they are in public because we can revive them but they can't fix this problem. This problem can't be fixed with bandaids and a temporary solutions. This requires a wholesale change that is going to be uncomfortable for people I don't think people are really excited about the idea of fully decriminalizing drugs. The idea of letting people use down the block for them. Them or the house next door, or on the street or in a park or so on, but that is something we're going to have to deal with. Because the reality is people dying behind closed doors in the block down the street, and it might be easier for you, 'cause. You don't have to see them. You don't knowledge it, but it's not better for society because we're losing tens of thousands of lives this way. Decriminalizing drugs isn't the same as legalizing. Will what what's the distinction? And what is the basic argument for decriminalizing beyond what you have just described? It is literally the pathway to saving lives right so this is where it gets a little bit complicated. The is calling for a as baseline and the big shift in their policy is. They want to decriminalize personal possession Now this is significant, but it's only part of the equation, so decriminalizing for personal possession means you know no longer arresting people when they are found the COUPLA, grams of cocaine or heroin would have you and I think a lot of people think that we've already functionally done that to some degree in it. They're not entirely wrong. It is it is harder. Harder today to go to prison for simple possession than it was twenty some odd years ago. That being said when you look at the crime statistics reported by police. You're still looking at about. Four percent of a court processes per year where the most serious offence the person is facing is simple drug possession, so there is still Yo- upwards of ten thousand people a year, being prosecuted charged and potentially incarcerated because of drug possession, and you're also talking about a significant number of young offenders in that camp. As well. Of course you know, once you start sending drug users to prison that is really only going to negatively impact their future career prospects, their future prospects of of of kicking. Drug use. Habits any talking, it's GonNa seriously impact their ability to kind of get away from certain lifestyle. If they so choose so that a baseline that is that is a big step, it significant but what a lot of harm reduction gets are saying needs to happen beyond that is safe supplied. You need to figure out a system where. You know even if you're gonNA, continue criminalising drug trafficking drug production. You need to give people who use drugs an avenue to obtaining those drugs legally and safely so drugs where you know what isn't that supply where no, the potency or you know whether there is or is not fenton on so on, so that is a really core problem here and it's one. We've not quite figured out, so the federal government has given provinces some leeway to set up their own safe supply. Supply program so programs where doctors can prescribe to patients certain opioid alternatives or heroin itself That program is getting off the ground. You're seeing about thirteen hundred people who have access to that program which is kind of recently began in British. Columbia but other provinces haven't followed suit, so it's really only available if you're in British Columbia and the federal government really hasn't incentivized or courage. Provinces took it down that path, so you know the safe supply system is still quite limited. And it's still kind of hindered by significant barriers. Now here's the upside. The Association of Chiefs of Police are actually encouraging that parameter expand as well. They're encouraging the government to eliminate barriers and to make it easier for people to access safe supply programs especially overseen by doctors. So as was this the recommendations that they just put out as well. It was yeah, they. It's kind of buried a little bit. You know the biggest compliment thing is drug criminalization no more policing people for simple possession but they're also saying specifically you know we need to figure out a way. Way To not just an expensive supply, but also make it accessible and easy for people to access because you know I think we've seen quite evidently from the marijuana legalization process that if people have an easier simpler cheaper illegal option, they're going to take that over the cumbersome expensive government system so You know I think with the ACP. Saying here is we've learned our lesson. people want the simple elegant solution, and that is going to be a safe supply system where a doctor or a nurse or a clinic can hand it to you without too much trouble. Wow that it is really remarkable, because beyond steering people towards a public health resources rather than the criminal justice system. You presumably have some pathway to steer them away from the dealers. Who when they get arrested. There's a chain reaction of people being driven further underground if you have a way. To get a safer supply it's it's safer for users, and then they're also within this this system that can support them and possibly. Help them on the path to recovery. So that's exactly right and I think that is the big sort of caveat in this whole report from the Association of Chiefs of Police is that they're still saying we need to focus on interdicting. Traffic traffickers and dealers. We need to figure out how to continue breaking up supply chains and arresting dealers in ensuring interr- trafficking, especially by crime comes to an end, and there's a problem there the sort of their sort of attention, because if you're disrupting supply flows, then you're potentially jacking up prices, affecting the supply and demand pricing your potentially forcing people into dealers. They don't know or don't. Don't trust and we're already seeing this. It seems like part of the reason why overdoses are spiking renowned British Columbia is because the supply chains have been so disrupted by the COVID, nineteen pandemic, and because those supply chains are so disrupted You're seeing people go to dealers. They don't know you're seeing certain drugs into the market. They might not otherwise be there. You're seeing prices dropped. Because maybe there's a glut. Glut because you know the drug, themselves can't move to other cities, so you know trying to continue policing disapply part is troubling problematic because it does ultimately impact, many many more drug users than you're ever going to get into a government. Run A safe supply program at least in its current states. So you know this is, this is the tension, and this is what a lot of drug policy advocates are. Are, saying these happen next is that we need to go beyond You know these these very small safe supply programs. We need to go beyond thinking that we can police our way out of the supply problem. We need to figure out how to get people the drugs. They WANNA use in a safe way as possible because you know fundamentally the drugs they're using or not really threats to society been couvert. Housi- with opium dens, the people using essentially the same compounds that are in heroin today, and they used them in bars and cafes throughout the city. You know we've shut them down partly as a racist campaign against Chinese immigrants. So you know you can have all of the opinions we want to know whether or not heroin is a good, a good or bad drug. You know it is something that has been around for centuries, and we need to figure out how to live with it. Yes, so this is. This is my next question just. It requires a political will and requires some sort of ships in public, and I can kind of see the political counter narratives for me because you've now gone from legalizing pot to talking about safe supply of hard drugs, and it's a hard project to push through politically diva sense of what the federal government's responses to the. So the Federal Government deserves credit, I mean they have been the ones to open up. This limited safe supply supply program They've spoken seriously about how to get safe supply into the market and you know they've they've they've. Called, this a fundamentally health problem, not a policing one, so they deserve credit on all those fronts, because they're saying and doing some of the right things that being said the prime minister has said bluntly several times. Decriminalization in any form is not on the table. that. He's not there yet. He's not going to be there that I've spoken to the former health and justice minister who have said that they pressured him to do exactly that, and he said No. The polling is not going to let us do. It basically were worried about losing an election on drug policy. Don't care how many lives it saves I. Don't see what in the next election if we push for that, so it's not happening That's really disappointing, because once been done thus far has fundamentally opened up safe supply for. You know thousand two thousand, maybe three thousand people across the country. We're talking about tens of thousands of drug users, all of whom are at risk, and if they're not at risk right now, that could be at risk very soon once their supply changes, so you know. How do you figure out how to expand those small programs from two thousand people to twenty thousand and fundamentally you can get there unless you're willing to talk about the criminal aspect. You can't help those people. If they're worried about going to jail, you can't figure out how to get a safe supply of heroin as long as your spending enormous resources trying. Trying to go after the people who are actually dealing it, and who actually own the supply networks, you can cut them out. There is a really good ways in which I think. cannabis legalization us that they're really good ways in which you can build your own supply network build your own production cultivation that worked to supplant and replace those groups but you need to have the conversation I think everyone acknowledges this freaks, people out these conversations freak people out the idea of importing heroin in bulk by the federal government that that should freak people out. It's a huge shift. I get it, but also keeping my who's. WHO's recommending this Dr? Bonnie Henry you know one of the frontline soldiers in the fight against covid nineteen is more or less this that we need to figure this apply peas. She's been bending has gone for a long time. Saying that this is the pressing pandemic, or at least was before covid nineteen head was the. This is the pressing pandemic. We need to take a real serious. You know We put our shoulder to the wheel and take very seriously and people just haven't been listening so this is really frustrating and I. Get people out, but you. You should be uncomfortable. Tens of thousands of people are dying right. Right, surely we can get past some of this discomfort about drugs and start saving these lives. Okay, so data is our best guide in lots of complex situations. What does the data show us about how decriminalization has worked in other places, there are other countries that have that have decriminalized unfortunately. Yeah, we don't have a lot. You know there's not been a lot of other countries who have gone down this path. The ones we do have a really promising Portugal is the most high profile example full on decriminalized all drugs They did this two decades ago and it has been. You know aside from some hit. A massive success pick a metric, and it has improved under decriminalization whether it's IBI transmissions overdoses poverty. You name it. Things have gotten for the whole country, not just drug users That being said the data is is still limited. Portugal has not done a massive amount of research into all of the ways in which side has changed, but the data we have suggests it's been a big success. The Netherlands Switzerland have varying degrees gone forward on safe. Supply and quasi equalization tangents and again the data is really promising but what we know from our own country is that when we've used safe supply in a very limited way, it has been a success research that has gone on for many years, and has looked at thousands and thousands of drug users show that therapies where you replace heroin or felt, nor what have you with? Similar drugs that have similar effects, but can be managed more effectively. It has saved lives. It has saved thousands of lives, but it's going to require a scale up. We can't keep doing tiny little pilot projects here and there for two hundred people at a time. The people don't work this way. People don't work by jumping from pilot project. A pilot project people don't work by you know limited scale government projects they want. If people WANNA use a drug. They're GONNA use it. They're gonNA sources from the east coast cheapest most convenient way. And people have been organizing their own sort of decriminalize their own sort of their own sort of alternatives to the government system. There have been buyers cooperatives individual drug users who have gotten together pull the resources and found a safe supplier and have purchased from them directly, and then distributed amongst their members but under the law. These people are traffickers. These people have committed a crime for which they could serve time in federal prison. And that is is really jarring. I think when you consider what they're fighting against their fighting against an epidemic, and we're trying to police them for it and you know. Finally I think it's. It's undeniable the racial aspect of this if you look at our federal prison, which houses individuals who have been convicted of a crime and sentenced more than two years in prison, some thirty percent or their unplug crimes. Obviously, that's not just possession. You know that's true. Cultivation production but you know thirty percent of federal prisons are individuals who were convicted on drug crimes, and you are twice as likely to be in federal prison on a drug crime. If you're indigenous than if your white it is undeniable that black, indigenous and non white racial is. Is People have been disproportionately hit by this criminalization project and we don't seem to want to grapple with that. You know if you WANNA. Talk about defunding police. If you WANNA talk about Colonel, justice reform sentencing reform. You name it. You cannot get away from the fact that drug criminalization is at the very center of that problem. We spent an enormous amount of money time and resources policing and targeting racialist people as port of massive expensive drug investigations. To what end is that helping society in terms of breaking up families by putting people in prison by financing criminal enterprises. By denying. The, individual drug users and access for illegal safe noncriminal supply the entire process, this entire system is wrapped up in an you know intricately interlaced you know racists system of policing criminalization and I think the case ovation of chiefs of police deserve enormous amount of respect for finally starting to acknowledge that problem and to suggesting solutions that bring us away from that. This is a big big big first. Step this report from the police chiefs. It's only for step as you say. What are the stakes? If this just ends here? Are People dying like you know? I don't think there's any other way you can get past that. If things don't and let's be quite real. You know no matter what happens. People are going to continue to die. WE ARE PART OF A. North American drug market where Feno has permeated every corner of the continent where you're starting to see massive overdoses in Mexico from Feno, where you're seeing a meth crisis that it that is absolutely ravaging a lot of communities, especially in the American northwest where you're seeing, people use drugs that they could never imagine would include Fendt no and dying at you know people who are not long-term drug users people who who go to a wedding offer a limit of cocaine. Use it and dive. Offend overdose that night you know you're talking about a problem that is pervasive. That is really pernicious, and that is. That is going to be really hard to fight. But you can't fight with two hands tied behind your back. You can't fight that while you're fighting. An unrelated war that we've long established is Meyer. You know this first step is the bare minimum necessary to avert the number of deaths that we could see, and we could see this year. Be The worst year of all time for drug overdoses in this country that is on the table, and if that happens, you know there's going to need to be some real real reckoning with what this government has allowed to happen because you know for all this government's great rhetoric and. And I'm talking mostly about the federal government of provincial governments have Olaudah responsibility to bear as well especially governments like Jason Kenny's Alberta which has repeatedly fought safe consumption sites, which is again, even even the barest of minimum required to fight this pandemic, but you know I think they're going to have to be a reckoning with the government that has consistently recognized how bad the problem is has consistently said it wants to do something and has consistently been woefully inadequate when it comes to actually taking the measures that everyone is telling them as are necessary to fight against this. Seems like a great place to leave it. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your thoughts. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Justin. Ling is an investigative reporter based in Montreal. And that was the big story. For more from us, you can visit our website. The big story podcast dot ca you can also follow us on twitter at the big story p. n., and now you can write to us to let us know what you think or even suggested episode topic. The email address is the big story podcast at our C. I. Dot Rogers Dot Com. I'm sermons to Superman. Ian We'll talk tomorrow.
Child Killer, Chapter 7 - Dr. Danto
"The following story contained sensitive and disturbing details. It's not suitable for children. He's a white male approximately twenty five to thirty five years of age. The city of Birmingham as authorized reward of twenty five thousand dollars to be distributed to Hurson or persons furnishing information or evidence which results in the apprehension and conviction of those person or persons responsible for the criminal obstruction of Timothy king five ten husky Bill in the early nineteen nineties. My friend told me that case of solid by deathbed. Confession. Has a fair complexion. Is we spend two -bility also sins young an old partake. This investigation was wearing a rest colored sport jacket with dark pants. The bodies were were being cleaned. And maybe even a shower. He soft-spoken not only was the public nervous frightened scared to death about what was happening to to our children. But you had some doubts creeping in to the public as to whether the police were doing a good job as dark Brown hair cut in shake. Welcome back to shattered. I'm March twenty third of nineteen seventy seven the Lansing state journal led with the headline seventh abduction slaying missing boy found dead. The article is written and published less than twenty four hours after TIMMY kings. Lifeless body was found people are terrified oaken county. Sheriff Johanna Spreen said quote parents are now driving their children to school and picking them up. When a child has been missing for a couple of hours, or parents would have waited it out. Now, they call us right away and quote. Fear distorted the picture people. Didn't know who to look for exactly. But they knew that someone was out there. It was horrible and violent. People wondered whether John Wayne gase, where's the Oakland County child killer? John Wayne JC is one of the most infamous serial killers in American history everyday for a week outsiders came here to see bodies brought out of house is neighbors will never forget that is C baddies in your sleep. You see him in your sleep? I it's just too much or the time. He was convicted in nineteen eighty he had sexually assaulted tortured and murdered at least thirty three teenage boys and young men and Cook County, Illinois just outside Chicago WJR radio. News director Decatur explains. Why gays name was connected with the Oakland County child killer a lot of the things involving what what gay see did would would go along with what we thought the killer might be like. And so we had the specter of John Wayne gay see from Chicago. Ago being the Oakland County child killer. It was an example of. The mass hysteria going on and and the rampant fear going on in in our community. We checked into that. And we couldn't find anything to say that he was actually here. Retired. Detective sergeant Dave Robertson used to work for the Michigan state police. His father was actually original task force commander, Robert Robertson. And Dave Robertson was part of the reinvented task force. Chief Tobin reiterated at the news conference that someone out there knows this killer or killers. And he begs the person come forward with information and put an end to this ordeal. That has shaken the entire community which munity was on the lookout for a white male between twenty five and thirty five years old five feet ten inches tall heavyset build these details were given by a witness who saw TIMMY, king speaking to a man that fit that description that description fit a lot of men in the area the other crew they had we believe that he's driving. A late model? Blue gremlin. With whitewall tires blew gremlin became an obsession. The gremlin blue gremlin blue gramling gramling, gremlin gremlin, blue gremlin. That same witness claims I saw TIMMY king talking to the stocky guy. And he was sitting behind the wheel of a blue gremlin the night that TIMMY was -ducted. It was easier for people to identify the car, then it was to identify a stocky white male of average height. There is a famous wanted poster that is circulated in the seventies. And shows the gremlin one hundred thousand dollar reward for information and a sketch. Oakland County chief assistant prosecutor hall Walden. Sometimes a theory or a statement, then becomes the narrative of the story. Like, I said the best example is the gremlin WJR news director Decatur if you saw blue gremlin driving in your neighborhood you called the police. And if you're on the other end of that new drove a blue AMC gremlin or you sold one you're feeling the heat despite all the bad, publicity and new car AMC dealers are not happy about it. Blue gremlins with the white stripes are still being sold. In fact, one was sold here today in Royal of five really been worried about it because I work in Oakland County, and I'm in downtown Birmingham. I get some strange looks people driving. My look at your money. Look in the car to see, you know, who's driving it when they see it's girl. They usually, you know, just say oh well. It's gotta fix business, especially on the blue gremlins. But I would hope that something would happen shortly where this thing would be settled for my girlfriends came over one night. They saw me out there. Looking in my car? I came off a work one time, and there was a guy looking out at my car. But that was it had a customer in the other day that meant stop, please state police stopped them and local peace to. The entire task force and public were focused on blue gremlins. I think it was delivered mistake by the police officers. Very king. Father of TIMMY, king remembers Timmy's older brother Chris trying to help when you got home from babysitting that night, Chris would just turned sixteen the day before and got his license without talking to his parents took us baseball bat and went out looking for Tim got to the hundred maple parking lot where apparently it all took place stores were closed. And he said there were three or four cars there, including a blue gremlin. And he had read someplace that they had fancy upholstery. And even went over and looked at it. But it didn't have this fancy was checking out. And three or four days later when they add went into paper, crystal cops that he'd seen that blue gremlin there that evening that doesn't appear any place in records that I've seen. In the king family, always thought it was a bad lead retired officer, Dave Robertson, Christine Haley. I mean. The car back into the snowbank and left bumper imprints, and we were able to identify the car. As a I think it was cutlass. Definitely wasn't blue gremlin. No. It was not a boo gremlin, but could have been a Pontiac la- man's. Here's WJR radios Decatur if it was a Pontiac lemons, and we should have been we at that time should have been notified of this. Would that have helped track down the killer? We don't know that's one of the questions and one of the areas where looking back on it. We wonder whether the police didn't do this job. Very well. Yes. Megan's red hair I've ever seen. Some woman comes out of the drugs. I think I saw a gremlin, and we spent months tracking down blue grimace, Oakland County executive l Brooks Patterson and with the Cup corporation, cooperate weather's and gave us names of people perjure some people had her sent the time was the Oakland County prosecutor he actually decided to ignore the constitution in pursuit of the killer. And if people have gremlins, Bob. Stopped the buck. But they never complained and I said look step. If you I'll take the heat you have to have probable cause making style. I said if you see a car that looks suspicious go ahead stopping and searching and emphysema backlash because of the fourth amendment protections. I'll Stanford we stopped cars all over several days. Very little probable cause. If any now, one motorist complained they wanted to help share opened the Trumpster. They knew that this investigation was that particular case going on quickly didn't have time. And so we still the police there and raise but the public to a man into a woman's no problem. Current Oakland County chief assistant prosecutor, Paul Walton. If you drove a gremlin Oakland County, you're getting pulled over in the car is getting searched what a gross waste of resources, quite honestly. And and to this day. It is that it is the gremlin that is involved in this gremlin was the biggest red hearing ever in the case, author, Marnie keenum, I think they they located every registered gremlins something like eight thousand grambling's that we're registered and I have a picture of a cop seeing next to this big computer pay just outline of every gremlin. Gremlins are being pulled over left. And right one one gremlin was had a, you know full police presence in engage them because it was a guy trying to take his kid to the dentist. Was not the right vehicle. Many many man hours of police work, and many many thousands of is of people that were trying to observe and get clues people in the general public trying to help fine who the killer was were. Driven down the wrong path. Apparent waste of time. Other actions taken that amounted to nothing I knew Bruce tanto, very well. He was a respected. Mental health professional around here. He did forensic. Investigations with many police agencies. He was very public about what he did. And he enjoyed the limelight. So it was almost the natural that Dr Bruce Danta would get involved in some way in the Oakland County child killings. It's still not entirely clear. What was motivating Dr dantonio? And he had this theory that he was secretly communicating with the killers. Dr Bruce tanto would establish contact with someone claiming to know the killer, the doctor and the killers associate plan to meet what happened after the break. For seven years men were vanishing from Toronto's gave Elhage community, always suspected serial killer. And they were right and the new season of uncover the village host Justin Ling investigates to spates of brutal murders forty years apart. Listen and subscribe to uncover wherever you get your podcasts. Dr Bruce dantonio was a middle aged psychiatrist and professor at Wayne State university in nineteen seventy seven he consulted with task force on this case, and he did so with police prior to the child killings and other cases. Some police were skeptical of Dr Daniel because he was kind of a publicity hound in some ways, but they were willing to take whatever help anybody might be able to give them and Dr Bruce dantonio f all was an expert in this field, and he offered to try to help we have completely covered the areas that we need to with the profile and with the composite and with information about cars and vehicles wanted. Dr Dan to appeared on local TV in January of nineteen seventy seven Christina Mahela was missing. And surely after this television segment the killer would leave Maalik spotty on Bruce lane in Franklin Michigan. Dr Bruce dantonio Bruce lane meant the killer was trying to send him a message. I know. This sounds crazy. But police thought dantonio and the killer may actually have a connection. Timmy, king was missing much of nineteen seventy seven the police went to anto and asked him for help. They want to go on TV and say that the killer was quote, a squirrel character and quote authorities hoped. This would be the killer to squirrel road. Please late know those twenty four thirty days when I was finally called it out. In the spring of nineteen seventy seven a man calling himself Allen road, Dr dantonio saying that his roommate Frank was the killer Frank or Allen, neither one of those are real names. These are the names that were given by Alan Danta in this. Alan guy would write back and forth. It's important to note that Dan did share his correspondence with the task force. Allen typed. I'm desperate and nearly gone. Crazy. This is for real. I know who the killer is I live with him. I am slave. He went on to talk about his roommate Frank and how his actions were actually celebrated. He killed a lot of little kids, and then got medals for it for in the death bomb them with napalm. He wants the rich people in Birmingham to suffer like all of us suffer to get nothing back for what we did for our country. He's not a monster. Like, you think you really loves children, especially that little girl three weeks. Not because he hates children but doing it because he hates everybody else out there. Allen was clear that he himself had nothing to do with the murders. He said, I swear I had no idea. He was going to kill that. First little boy, the one with the blonde colored hair. That Blombos talking about was Mark stebbins? Ellen started to become more cryptic, and Dr Daniel some instructions on April tenth nineteen seventy seven Dr Daniel contacted Alan by putting ad in the newspaper with the code words. Trees to bloom in three weeks. Now these particular codes were used because that's what Alan asked Danta to do. So that our new Danta wanted to communicate with him. Responded to this ad by calling Dr Danta bat day, and he promised to bring Polaroid's to dantonio proving that his roommate Frank killed more stebbins chill Robinson, Christina and TIMMY king. That was only if Dr dantonio get then Governor William Milliken to write a letter of immunity, which would make sure that Alan didn't get any trouble through this process. Elmwood orchestrator meeting the venue. Gabe are in Detroit, Dr dantonio showed and then he waited Allen never showed and would never make contact with the doctor again dental tried several times publicly to reach out to this Alan guy through the newspaper, but he had seemingly vanished some speculate that he was hushed possibly murdered others think Alan was nothing more than a hoax. As the case trudged on leads dried up task force funds were bap rating. What I'm interested in as long as we have the manpower. We've got enough cars and gas in our cars and paper to put an typewriters. We're going to be in business. The remaining officers kept working the case, the nearly twenty three months the task force operated. It would be awarded to federal grants totaling four hundred and forty five thousand dollars, but that only lasts so long after twenty thousand tips and about two million dollars spent on December fifteenth nineteen seventy eight the task force would officially Ford. And the Oakland County child killer case, we'd go quiet long longtime. But in February of nineteen eighty nine. There would be a development police in Berkley Michigan went through deadman's belongings in a small cross was found. It was a inch and a half long. It was a little girls jewelry etched into the back of this cross was the name Christine spelled K R. I S T. I e the same way open county child killer victim, Christina heloc, spelled her first name that alone wasn't enough to be something. Obviously. There was more to the story. The dead, man. Was what connected the cross to the crimes in nineteen Eighty-one man named David Norberg died in a car crash in Wyoming. He was originally from the Oakland County area and had been a suspect in the child murders back in the original investigation. But he would be cleared after the police interviewed him several times Norberg moved his family to Wyoming shortly after the police questioned him investigators arrived at dawn to the small cemetery in Rick Lewis, Wyoming. David Norberg is buried in nineteen ninety nine after DNA technology and science advanced authorities would take a chance they admit it's a long shot that a hair found. I one of the victims will match DNA taken from Norberg who remains the prime suspect eighteen years after his own death. It took more than two decades. The police had a lead a good lead enough of a lead to fly team of thirties and journalists more than thirteen hundred miles to Exuma body. He's a suspect we have DNA, and you just have to come out and do this up. You need is not. How do you ignore say? Well, it cost too much the cost shouldn't be back by seven AM. The grave was dug in the top of the coffin removed. Dr Eljay Dragevic performed an autopsy and collected samples from inside the six foot grave while the success of this operation would be measured by the ability of the appropriate labs to to do the testing. And hopefully, the matching elbrick's Patterson was the prosecuting attorney in the mid seventies. When the Oakland County child killer of -ducted emerhed for children between the ages of ten and twelve he arranged private financing for the trip in hopes. It will finally close the case has been a long shot. And it's, but as I said before it's a shot that were taking Christina hillocks mother would tell the Detroit Free Press that she didn't recognize the cross and former task force streak commander. Lieutenant Joe crease. Ed, quote, you have to fit the person to the crime. You can't change the crime to the person, and quote, they took. They're shot. But unfortunately, David Norberg was not their guy. Another frustrating. But for the first time long time, the meter was moving after a few years in two thousand five task force would reactivate and new leads would lead to new suspects. It would also lead police back to old suspects and one in particular that sounded an awful lot. Like this. He's a white male approximately twenty five to thirty five years of age. Five ten husky build. He has a fair complexion. It was wearing arrest colored sport jacket with dark pants. He soft spoken. As dark Brown hair cut in shake. And I've not seen anybody convinced me. That Bush was not involved. I've had a number of people say, well, I'm not going to talk to you anymore. I'm not going to talk to. But that doesn't mean they don't agree with me. In two thousand ten berry. King filed freedom of information act request began his own investigation into the murder of his son TIMMY, and he felt elected officials were standing in his way. I don't understand why. Just a Cooper who never prepared tried to case for forty years ever got elected prosecutor. But it seems like every time I. One piece of information. It raises two more questions. And. I think the prosecutors are elected to protect the victims. Information became something to argue over the victims families, one at all the county and officials are careful to guard it this battle, which is still going on to this very day has a lot to do with one particular suspect. I've had police officers. Tell me that they thought Christopher bushels involved. Christopher Bush was just one of many names to emerge. You know to me the whole way of as how this case is going to be solved today. Lies on Ted Lamborghini to me, Vince gunnels. Tazelaar deems more art Sloan and Crosby, the usual into unusual suspects on the next shattered. A special. Thank you to bury king to Kafer, Abe Robertson, Paul Walden. Marnie Keenan L Brooks Patterson, Bob, Dykstra, and Corey Williams gave their time consideration of the story and a lot of work into this whole process, and I wanna make sure that the following people are recognized anesthesia Clovis Joe prints tad Davis. Not just for helping interviews, but also in the editing process. Zack Rosen who oversees the podcast operation here. Kenny else off for his help with the website, which looks great Mary Wallis and the crew at the Walter their library, Wayne State university. Dave Birch who's made several trips back and forth to fix the machine. We use the capture film and audio Kevin beats for his help along the way row Coppola executive producer special projects Kelly, Alan, executive producer of my house in life. Our team also produced a five part docu series on the story. So if you like to see the faces attached to all the names voices that you're hearing find that and so much more at shatter podcast dot com until next time.
Child Killer, Chapter 4 - He's Just Not Here Anymore
"For seven years men were vanishing from Toronto's gay village community, always suspected serial killer, and they were right and the new season of uncover the village host Justin Ling investigates to spates of brutal murderers, forty years apart. Listen and subscribe to uncover wherever you get your podcasts. The following story contained sensitive and disturbing details. It's not suitable for children. We have an extensive search in Birmingham area we have utilized both the sheriff's office. And we have also the task force. It is presently working on the other crimes other crimes that have committed the Oakland County area. Yes. Abba, work schedule to do a lot of things that that be normal person. Can't do he's clean. We think. We we think we're looking for somebody in a white collar class or professional class something of that nature. Welcome back to shattered. I'm Jeremy Ellen. Chief Tobin still thinks there's someone out there who has information about the killer. And he's hoping that person will come forth with that information without that information, he fears the only way they're going to find the murderer is if he strikes again, and at this point, nobody wants that it had been six days since king was last seen at the hunter maple pharmacy in Birmingham, drugstore, youngster salt about three blocks. The search for TIMMY king was at a fever pitch. The task force asked everyone to keep a lookout including postal workers as they deliver the mail. Why a day or should anything out there? They should be able to dissolve everybody Kenyan h gale audible eight this mobile at the incisions with CB radio radios in their cars became part of the search as well. I don't think it's been going. And it's been interesting. There other has made it kind of nasty that drive around your do you're looking year. But doing the very best we can find this missing youngster. On the night of the sixth day. The searching would stop finally on March twenty second author keenum five or six days after Tim had gone missing. Two kids driving down Gill road near eight mile. In farmington. And they see I think they see Tim's red hockey jacket. Tuesday, March twenty second nineteen seventy seven right around eleven pm to makings body is found in a shallow. Ditch. The body of the young land down there. Timothy canaan. Former Birmingham police officer Jack called flesh was at the scene that night. He addressed a massive reporter sometime after midnight. Early to tell and we're not going to second guess the land. The medical exotic. No obvious signs, gentlemen. We have stayed back. Let the crime lab people do their job in. We only got most enough to give the tentative identification. How long do you think he's been that might give no answer your some background to the body was found? No, I can't at this time. We received our call lavonia stating a body had been found and the clothing description was similar to that of are missing. Boy. Timmy's body was in a ditch about three hundred sixty feet south of eight mile road in the Bonia. This location is important for many reasons lavonia is not an Oakland County. But instead it's neighboring Wayne County this meant a whole new department. New prosecutor's office would be introduced to the case. I received the call from the station at eleven thirty, you know, whether or not the Livonia fire department tried to revive the body when they found, and I do not is it true red jagged skateboarders bonded with the body. Understand. The fact I know I saw the red jacket and green pants and the shoes all tentative identification is there. What are you? About signs of violence on the body. And then look like anything. Stabbing shooting anything like that. No open signs that we can see from our position in the middle of the road. The sheriff's department has this area blocked off. So people to work. Checking license numbers and cars early to see perhaps that there's a suspect in the area. Gentlemen. We're doing a number of things that we can't release this time. I still feel the most important aspect of the investigation and get this animal off the street. Police had the media not to report anything until they were able to tell the kings and. But then a small ticker headline went at the bottom of the TV, and it said of bodies and found the sobering. Reality hadn't even set in yet. Just under twenty miles away in Birmingham, the king family find out about it. The same way the rest of metro Detroit would. I was in bed. And had the radio on and they said something about finding the body there. And I knew it had to be Tim. And it was verified shortly thereafter. My wife and. Some additional people were still awake and or here. No living room and. Our family priest in. One of the leading Birmingham, police officers confirmed everything to us. But I was not surprised. I'm sure you were devastated though. Oh, yeah. Happens to you. It doesn't make any difference. Whether. Kidnapped and murdered run over by a car on the way home. It's not just not here anymore. An autopsy was conducted after Timmy's body was discovered it showed that TIMMY had been smothered between six and eight PM which meant he was found only about three hours after he was murdered. His body was still warm. So police performed CPR. His gate board was toss right next to them sort of as an afterthought. Birmingham police chief Jerry Tobin. He certainly with the amount of coverage that we had had to know that we had assembled probably the largest task force in the United States to work on a case like this. And I'm sure that the pressure caused him to move to Wayne County. Police told me last night. It was about eleven o'clock when two teenage boys from Detroit had driven down Gill road. They'd gotten this far about two hundred yards south of eight mile road. They spotted the body of Timothy king. They went to that house back there. Another two hundred yards and told their story to Lester Davis that time about to let anybody in house. It was all about eleven o'clock. The cat got out of ten o'clock. And I didn't let him and I said, well, you guys just hang in. There went down there. And there was so that was it. And so I came back in the house. Do you think the boy could have still been alive when he was dumped there? Well, I don't know. I was up all night. And I'm not a doctor. I don't doubt anybody's word of what they say. But I did see the doctor lift his arm up. When I first went down there, the boys arm was behind him, and he was laying on this left cheek. And this body left side to the mud which was more or less frozen at that time night because of the coal weather, and then I noticed the arm had been moved. And then I heard that the fire department had been there to check over to see if he was dead, and I will never Dr word of a fireman. They they know these guys are our greatest and they said he was dead. So he was and I don't think the body had been there anymore than an hour before the cat. Let the boys know that it was there. They knocked on the door, and I called the police and all that so. Called it. Lester Davis says his Catt alerted the two passing boys that something was in the ditch. And so what the gruesome discovery by a small white cat and two teenage boys a nightmare ends for the parents of Timothy king and a new one begins. What happened to Timothy king? And will there be any more? But that wouldn't be the last gruesome discovery. The your traps he was conducted by Dr Spitzer the medical examiner's office in wing county. This is police chief Robert Turner, TIMMY king was found in Turner's town. And now he was front and center in the investigation death occurred sometime between six and eight PM yesterday. Sexual abuse did occur stomach contents were. Of food. That was consumed about two hours before death. Was caused by suffocation. There were some marks for binding of the hands and feet. Someone then asks about the contents of TIMMY stomach. Yes. Follow and corn. Fowl chickens. Turkey. You know? If you remember Marion king Timmy's mom made a plea one of the local newspapers to the captors asking that TIMMY, be returned to the family. So they can joy his favorite meal chicken dinner. Journalists Decatur the killer. Read the comments by MRs king. And made it a point to feed Tim his favorite meal before he was killed. In a macabre twist. Almost. Adding to the injury and misery of the family. As awful as all of this was the task force. Would discover a piece of information that could be incredibly useful. They had an actual eyewitness who saw Tim standing next to a gram Lynn and talking to somebody that likely appeared to be driving it. We'll be right back. Three days after Timmy's body was found in lavonia ditch about four hundred people. Join his family to say goodbye at the Birmingham. Holy name. Roman Catholic church. Friends were pallbearers carried the plain white casket out of the church and into the hearse. Berry Marian and the entire family left shortly after they walked hand in hand to the car. During the funeral plainclothes officers kept a close eye out for anyone suspicious, and they actually did make an arrest of a man who was driving around the church over and over. But after questioning they released him to other officers who were stationed in the balcony watched over the crowd ushers tip. Those officers off to two guys who looked like the artist rendering of the suspect turned out that one of those men was actually Birmingham mayor Samuel Staples. And the other was just a man there to mourn, the loss of TIMMY king. Just like the rest of the people in the church. If repress article describing the entire funeral pointed out marrying kings composure she seemed to be revered by those who knew her in watched her during what was sure to be the toughest moments of her life. Here's Mark Keenan. Just by force sear. Will she said I've got three other kids raise, and I'm not going to let this. Decimate there the rest of their lives. And she did Chris said it wasn't like we didn't talk about Tim was just. You know, we we celebrated him Christmas and talked about his sense of humor. And the fact that he he loved to play hockey and and little league. But. I didn't talk about the crimes. The king family was added to a growing list of grieving families. It was a very popular kid Smalls kid on the baseball team and let the leadoff hitter went to for two and they all star game. And he knew everybody. He was very sociable. And. Family in the world. Where cheated when it happened. All three of his siblings. Three member me telling him. That if anybody tried to pick them up he should drop everything had run as fast as he could and scream. And I'm convinced to this day that one TIMMY was kidnapping no gonna happen to them. And as an eleven year old kid. There was nothing. You can do about it. And that's the part of the murder to me. Let none of us ever. Forget the killer or killers of little Tim and the other little children still out there waiting to do it all over again. Vido news four Birmingham. We had about three hundred policemen. Looking for missing boy, and I guess tomorrow. We'll have about a lot more than those three hundred looking for killer. Birmingham police chief Jerry Tobin felt the urgency of investigation. And I think they're definitely be a different motivation in those policemen tomorrow. I think they're going to be pretty mad. The task force had a few details to work from a witness, Tim king talking to a man in the hunter maple pharmacy parking lot a sketch of that man was drawn up. This is a composite picture of a witness that we feel was the last person to see the missing boy in the Birmingham area. Sergeant Joseph creates the task force three coordinator called the guy in the parking lot a witness. He wouldn't go as far as to call him a suspect yet, we're hoping that this witness will come forward or anyone knowing this person will come forward identify to us. So that we can interview he's a white male approximately twenty five to thirty five years of age. Five ten husky Bill as a fair complexion. It was wearing a rest colored sport jacket with dark pants. He soft spoken. Has dark Brown hair cut in shake. We believe that he's driving. A late model? Gremlin? With whitewall tires, and he was standing next according to. So they had no idea of the guy that was talking to me what he looked like. And they also had vehicle description of blue gremlin, they also had another important detail in their back pockets, they figured out TIMMY had been sexually abused. The boys were sexually molested and didn't up here. The girls were Mark stebbins intimidate king. We're both sexually assaulted Christine. Maalik Joel Robinson or not those are the four children attached to this case today throughout the fifteen years. I've been investigating this case there's many theories, and you know, we looked at where they individual cases were they were made to look like the other ones where they copycats. Were they all four involved originally? They were all connected based on the MO based on the fact that they were objected held for several days. Their bodies were dumped in locations where they could be found. They were all suffocated manner. A death was the same. So they were believed to be connected detective looms misspoke. Jill Robinson was actually killed with a shotgun. Blast something that she may have been unsuccessfully smothered prior to being shot, but that's just speculation. So we don't really know at this point. Are they all four connected. It's kinda looking if you look at that evidence alone. Like, maybe it's boys and girls, but as as investigators we have to keep keep our eyes open and keep our minds open for anything. In nineteen seventy six Lieutenant Michael Moi's worked for the Michigan state police. He was the commander of the juvenile unit. Authorities knew there was a web or ring of child pornographers pedophile 's operating just beneath society surface. It's a logic. Logic jump from that community to what was taking place, especially with the males being sexually assaulted. But until we catch the person are we find out that person go into their background. We really don't know. But it's a logical jump. Authorities. Didn't have the answers but kept moving forward who was the killer. What strike again? I'm not frightened because I think I can take care of my son that attitude police say can yet your youngster murdered. On the next shattered. And boy, LA was not something which was on the radar screen of people at that time that was unheard of on thinkable. But for the first time people became aware that this kind of activity took place. Is Hugh multimillion dollar enterprise. I know there's questions about whether the four children were killed in Oakland County that we know of. Did some of that happened on north FOX island? A millionaire's private island becomes hell for some young boys. Who thought they were going on vacation? It was something far worse than paradise. I believe there's I haven't I believe there's a hell. I just wish I could see some of the punishments rather than waiting for God handed out. Investigators have created a tip line. If you have any information that could be useful, please call eight three three seven eight four nine four to five. If you have a story about the Oakland County child killer, and how did your life, please call us at three one three two three two two three seven and leave us a message. We can also be found on Twitter Instagram or Facebook, a special thanks to anesthesia closets tad Davis. And Joe prints for help with the interviews. Zack Rosen who helps oversee the podcasts and at the show the Walter p Reuther library at Wayne State and Mary Wallace. Dave Birch made a possible to record all of the film audio additional thanks to Kevin with his help with the story. We'd also like to thank Kellyanne our team also defy part docu series on the story. So if you wanna see the footage, you'll find all of that and much much more at shattered podcast dot com until next time.
S1, S3 & S5 BONUS: The Story I Didnt Tell
"This is a CBC podcast Co host of the National and uncovered bomb on board board recently at the hot Docs podcast festival in Toronto. I had the chance to share the stage with five incredible journalists from. CBC PODCASTS Josh. Block host of uncover escaping nexium Connie Walker the host of missing and murdered Justin Ling host of uncovered the village Michelle Shepherd separate host of uncovers Sharma knee and Damon fearless host of hunting warhead. If you haven't listened to these check them out I have heard all of them and they are riveting. These five journalists spent months sometimes even years digging investigating trying to uncover the truth in this bonus. Episode you're going to hear brand new stories. He's from some of the best investigative journalists and podcasters and those moments. Still keep them up at night whether it's trying to understand how a childhood friend found found herself recruiting for cult bearing witness to the life and death of a young creek girl or shining light on the darkest corners of the Internet. I I up Josh Block and uncover escaping nexium so one night in the middle of our investigation into nexium. I lay awake in bed with this terrifying feeling that I had been duped. I if you haven't heard the podcast I I learned about nexium from a childhood friend of Mine Sarah Edmonson when I ran into her two years ago the group calls themself a self help group but the FBI calls them a cult. It was just weeks after she had made this dramatic exit from the group and at that time little was known about nexium. There were notorious for going after people who would speak out about them but Sarah wanted to talk and I started recording conversations. So how how. How are you holding up? I don't even have word. Just love embarrassment. A lot of regrets for not following my gut instinct at the beginning A lot of shame that I missed the red flags and then I brought so many people to it so Sarah told me how she was a part of this group for twelve years. She was one of their star recruiters. She recruited two thousand people went to the organization. She described how she opened up a nexium center in in Vancouver. which at one point was the largest center for nexium outside of its headquarters in Albany New York and eventually she was recruited into the secret? Women's group called Dos where she was branded on her body with the initials of the group's leader keeps were nearly who everyone called vanguard in October of two thousand seventeen. Sarah Zero was on the front page of the New York Times. Her jeans were flat down to reveal the brand on her pelvis and the story that she told me in the story that she told The New York Times was was about a woman who was deceived. She was manipulated and coerced and had finally come forward as a whistleblower. But the night that I lay awake in bed I wondered if there was a different story. It was a question that our team had asked ourselves before but today was different. So that morning we'd received an anonymous encrypted letter that was sent sent to the CBC dropbox and my producer Kathleen Gold Har- rented out to the team. Said Hi Miss Sarah Edmonson Vancouver. Actress has been in the news recently featured by the New York Times for her role in the sex mind control cult nexium inner statements about her involvement with Nexium Edmonson mostly claims to be a victim. But but the truth is she and several colleagues were ruthless recruiters for Mr Rene Nexium. For many years. They use bullying tactics. High pressured sales pitches which is defamation and trickery as interesting why what prompted us. They're wanting us to see another side of this so the letter claim that Sarah was reframing her story to make herself look innocent. A claim that Sarah was far more culpable than she was leading on. I didn't know who the letter came from more to what extent it was true but I lay awake in bed that night wondering about the story Sarah been telling me and was her version of events the entire truth. Is it possible. Awesome that my connection to Sarah was making me miss something that other people could see as the FBI released more information about nexium. This feeling persisted. We we learned that Keith. Bernardi maintained a Harem. Fifteen to twenty women all female leaders in the group and I thought. How is it possible that Sarah is not aware that this was going on? She'd been part of Nexium for a decade. She ran their nexium center. She was one of the leaders in the organization. Could Sarah have been one of these secret. Lovers was she involved in grooming women to become kice partner. I was worried that the upcoming trial was going to reveal that we got the story totally wrong. But I've been misled that this would it'll be the first and the last podcast that they ever did. Then in May of this year kice trial began in a federal courthouse in Brooklyn finally finally the most secret inner workings of this group. We're going to be exposed. A former NEXIUM member for Mexico. told the court how she was confined to a room for two years. Here's another former member of nexium testified how she was instructed to seduce. Keith were neary and threatened that if she didn't follow through on that order damaging information would be released to the public about her. We learned about how Keith Rainier groomed underage girls and kept nude photos of them on his computer and the prosecution played audio and video recordings showing just how manipulative Keith. Rainier was in one particular conversation he had with actress. Allison mack was also a high level member member of the group. He instructed her exactly how he wanted. Women like Sarah to be branded on their bodies also of course videoing videoing it from different angles or whatever it gives. Collateral probably should be a more vulnerable herbal position thing on the back leg slightly spur legs spread straight like the beeping Helton side of the table able and probably above the head being held almost like tied down like a sacrificial whatever and the person should ask to be branded should say please please brand meat would be an honor or something like that. An honor I wanNA wear for the rest of my life and is you're probably say that before were there held down doesn't seem like they're being coerced so sitting in that packed courtroom. A few things became quickly clear one key through near used secrecy and information to control and manipulate people in the group to what was actually going on inside. This group was far far worse than anything Sarah had ever told me and three. It wasn't just Sarah that was in the dark to hear how other high ranking members of Nexium people who had actually given up their lives and move to Albany to be close to key through neary even them they were in the dark about what was going on inside this group. So my anxiety about Sara. Sara knew more than she's letting on shifted. I left that trial with a new question. How could it be that an entire organization could be duped this way all these people who lived and worked around key through nearly all day in this little suburb in Albany? How could they not have known about the sex trafficking and the forcible confinement environment and the manipulation and the underage girls secrecy and information control is an essential ingredient to how these kinds of groups operate that is why people who aren't keeper neary or part of his inner circle has such limited insight into what was going on inside this group? This explains a lot about what was going on with Sarah and perhaps I would have slept better having known this earlier on in our process for twelve years my childhood friend Sarah Edmonson had been sold and was selling version of that just never existed. It's only when a group like this collapses that the secrets are revealed and members like Sarah have to really reckon with how they were deceived. Not Know Anything. Not It'd be told and then this child just disappear into thin air now. I've done a lot of reporting on missing winging murdered indigenous women and girls but I've never heard a story like this before. What do you do with a complete strangers? Come and grab abuser car. Wash your godmother way and they take you away she was crying she tried to hitchhike back to little pine back onto the reserve user but was picked up raped and murdered a left by the side of the road. She grabbed her brother's jacket and the jacket was found floating being in a creek. cleal spirits. Very much lie across time. Ask you calm. I'm Connie Walker in this is missing and murdered finding Cleo. Thank you all so much for coming out tonight. It's such a pleasure to be here to get a chance to talk to you all but also talk a little bit about how we got here. And how how I got here specifically our podcast missing and murdered is a podcast about the violence that indigenous women and girls face in Canada our first two seasons dive into the unsolved cases of Alberta Williams and Cleo SOM agonists but today today I wanna tell you about the first woman who made me aware of not only the violence that indigenous women and girls face in Canada but but also the issues in the media. When covering these stories I was sixteen years old in grade? Twelve living on reserve in treaty. Treaty four territory in southern kitchen and going to school in Bulk Harris a nearby small town when I heard about Pamela George. Pamela was a young Soto woman a mother of two a daughter and a sister. She was from the SACRAME- first nation. Not far from from where I grew up in Saskatchewan but she lived in Regina with her young children. She was killed in nineteen ninety five but the two men in who were charged with her murder did not go on trial until late the next year. Now I wasn't a teenager who paid much attention to the news usually but I I knew about Pamela George. It was a very high profile trial that dominated headlines in Saskatchewan and even made the national news and as a young. I'm first nations woman in Saskatchewan I was keenly aware of how Pamela was spoken about in the media and how it differed from the way that the two white men and who were charged in her death were described. Here's a clip from a story on the national on December Nineteenth Nineteen ninety-six. The accused accused or young and clean cut Steve Comer field the basketball star Alex Turner Wet Ski Hockey Standout. They come from middle class families. The victim was aboriginal and a prostitute. The two men admit they were cruising Regina streets one night last year looking for a hooker in this area known for prostitutes institutes. They admitted picking up Pamela. George taking her to a remote ninety-six Steve Comer field the basketball star Dr and Alex Turner Wet Sqi. The hockey standout were acquitted of first degree murder and sentenced to manslaughter in Pamelas death. At the time I remember wondering if there were any first nations journalists in any of the newsroom's that were covering the trial and it was the first time that I you thought about becoming a journalist. I wanted to help. People better understand our people and our communities to create space so that people could have empathy for Pamela a young single mother who struggled and occasionally worked in the sex trade to help pay the bills Turner Wet ski and comer field old both served around four years of jail time and were released on bail around the time I started at. CBC as an intern. I was excited about the impact that I have in my future in journalism but I quickly realized that having just one indigenous voice in a newsroom might not be enough back then. The only time indigenous stories made the news was when there was some kind of crisis or conflict. The summer. I was an intern. The Fisheries Dispute Butte between the people on the East Coast and the non indigenous fishermen and burned church. New Brunswick were making national headlines. My job as S. chase producer was to book guests to come on the morning show and I had booked the chief of the Indian Brook First Nation to come on the show the following Monday to talk about the latest development in the dispute. I was pretty green producer at that point. So I remember my senior producer at the time. Grilling me about the details else. Did I tell them where to go. She asked yes. I said it was an early morning show. So did I double check with them about the time Yes said he knows and then she said to mean because you know those Indians they'll go out drinking all weekend and they won't show up on a Monday morning and it was a busy crowded newsroom and I remember member looking around to see if anyone else had heard what she said but no one was paying attention to our conversation so I just froze. I didn't know what to say so I said nothing. I still think about Pamela. George what could we have better understood about her if we had looked beyond her being being a sex worker if we approached her story with empathy in the last season of missing and murdered finding Cleo we use the central mystery the of CLEO's disappearance to help people better understand the sixties scoop and how the overrepresentation of indigenous kids in the child welfare system is linked reached the legacy of residential schools. And we knew that part of understanding Clios story would also be understanding her mother Lillian Story. Lillian was a woman who had all six of her children taken by child welfare authorities. A woman who was also taken away from her family and community entity as a child and sent to a residential school. Lillian was a woman who struggled with addiction and to cope with the trauma that she experienced in her life life and she struggled to care for her children. And so when we started the podcast we knew that to do justice to close story and to her mother's we needed to create space for our audience to have empathy for Lillian to help people fully understand her story and it worked by using the popularity of the true crime genre. We were able to reach people who didn't even know that they were interested in indigenous issues to attract people who came for the mystery but who stayed to learn. Learn about Canadian history people who went on to have empathy for Cleo and Lillian and people who I believe if they heard Pamela Melissa story now would demand the same for her. Thank you very much. It will be writing with an update where we have. I've been where we are now. And where we are going real thoughtfulness tenderness about him. We miss you and we love you come home safe please. I feel terrorized people. Just don't disappear this morning at approximately ten twenty five. Am Police arrested. sixty-six-year-old sixty-six-year-old Bruce Macarthur. He has been charged with eight counts of first degree murder. We're still looking at coal cases. There are a rash of murderer's from the seventies and eighties remain unsolved. This is like A. It's like a forty one year-old circle it's crazy or I respect you all human beings. The police in general did care about sexuality and they cared about it in a way that they wanted to victimize the community. I'm Justin Justin Lee. This season on uncover the village. When I began working on the village I had no idea what a homosexual murder was? I of course knew that Queer people face discrimination discrimination and disproportionate levels violence and I knew that police didn't always solve those cases but it wasn't until I started working on this podcast that that I discovered that a homosexual murder was something very very specific in the late nineteen seventies and early nineteen eighty S. Dozens of gay men and Trans Women were murdered in Toronto. Many of those cases looked eerily similar. Most of those victims were stabbed most died in their bedroom. Many of those cases went unsolved. I started talking to some cops. That's when I started hearing the phrase you could identify. I was a homosexual murder from the brutality. The overkill stay were stabbed stabbed once one hundred times and that was one of the things that made it pretty sure it was a a homosexual murder going to some of these rooms and look at the scene and not just by looking at the crime thing. Yeah yeah and it wasn't just the Toronto cops. The more started talking to people in other cities the more I started to realize that the idea of a homosexual murder was common in cities across Canada ended up and the United States. I spent months leafing through old newspapers and watching old newsreel. About those cases it seemed like everybody not just the cops just somehow knew what homosexual murder was like. It was some innate knowledge I kept wondering how how is it that if someone like me got murdered in say one thousand nine hundred ninety eight that the cops would walk in the room take a few looks around and just immediately know the score they would seem to conclude almost immediately that it was a crime of passion that this is how homosexuals settle things. So so I'm looking at their old. Copies of the body Politic Queer Liberation newspaper there was arguably one of the most important publications for the Canadian. LGBTQ community it's the march in one thousand nine hundred eighty edition. The issue investigated how the Toronto Police were aggressively surveilling and arresting game in for cruising public washroom and parks this even as they were supposed to be solving murders that plagued the community inside the paper one particular item catches my eye. The headline reads crowd leafletted at opening of cruising released in nineteen. Eighty starring. Alpa Chino you know cruising from the Gecko was despised by the community. A New York City detective in search of a killer is about to disappear into the night. Activist actually tried to disrupt the filming. Parts of the movie are overdubbed because there was so much hackley going on during the outdoor shots but Chino plays a young cop and he tries to catch a killer that had been targeting gay men and dumping their body parts in the Hudson River he gets tasked with infiltrating the CD world of Gay Nightlife in order to catch a serial killer. The film mostly boils down the community to just is two things. Public Sex and murder turns out the cruising was in fact inspired by many real cases from New York City. Unfortunately the film also boroughs many of the same assumptions and preconceptions and bias and homophobia that also plagued the police investigations. They started at these cases with the idea that gay men lead inherently risky lifestyles for one and also that the killers were almost always themselves gay cruising was informed by real cases but while I was looking through some old newspapers I found something that came a long long before there was any public understanding of this idea of homosexual murder. It's a TV listing from back when there were still TV listings in the newspaper. The detective nineteen sixty fifty eight drama. Your Jolan detect crawling US city stick with violence full of junkies prostitutes perverts Frank Sinatra Lee Ramic at detective finds the wrong man was electrocuted for the murder of a young homosexual and I did a bit of a double take. Sorry there was a Frank Sinatra film about homosexual murder what the movie opens up on a crime scene where a man has been violently murdered it. Junior that was homosexual were killed right now blows on the head he was five six times more much like cruising the investigation brought the police to cruising areas again. Reinforcing this idea that there was this unbreakable link between gay men hooking up in public places and violence both cruising and the detective reinforced or maybe even helped create the notion that murders of queer people were only ever committed by other queer people and they were crimes of passion or lover's quarrels. The reality is way more complicated in the dozens of the cases that I've looked at some were spur of the moment killings but many of the killers weren't gay at all. Some of the killings were committed by serial killers some murders targeted sex workers. But these films just built up the notion that homosexuality and murder were intrinsically linked that killings were unavoidable if you hung hung around these places and both of these films played up the notion that gay bars or cruising spots needed police intervention not to keep the gay community safe safe but to uphold public morality. All of those assumptions and beliefs led to a society where people were over policed and yet under protected now. Here's the interesting bit. While researching. The movie I found out the Twentieth Century Fox had actually planned a sequel starring Sinatra. It's it's based on another book in the series that the detective is based on and there was a synopsis it goes retired NYPD. Detective Joe Leland stocks and kills the terrorists who sees the clocks oil building in Los Angeles during Christmas party hosted by his daughters employer Sinatra turned down the sequel so the plans sat on a shelf for a few years. They shopped around the story. Tear Arnold Schwarzenegger Richard Gere Sylvester Stallone. Burt Reynolds all of them said now. Now it would take more than twenty years for the sequel to get made the studio changes the main characters name and they at long. Last cast Bruce Willis us the movie die hard. Thank you meany stuck out because she she was such a Vatian. Intelligent loving person show. Many is a top student at Woodbine. Junior hi who everyone says navigate an ounce of trouble the please fear the worst but hope for the best on the weekend police bounce Galata remains is in a North York Park to me. Justice was never searched for me. You know who did it. And I'm in no position to point the finger but I don't have to be UH detective to put the dots together. He was famously ability of us very deceptive. Found dark ground all sorts of stocker through the year. Abduction Kit one of one there is evidence that supports doc. Michelle shaped your head. Please come on now. Put yourself in. That situation could happen to anybody. I don't recall tall making that Tom. Okay so I'm telling you that you you. That's fine if you don't recall it but I'm telling you that's what you told me. I'm Michelle Shepherd and this is uncovered Sharman my very first assignment as a journalist. I was on my third day at the Toronto Star when I was a twenty two year old intern and I was sent to cover the death of a newborn baby when the doctors had dropped the baby on the floor. And I remember I was so worked up and so set sticking out this mother's home that by the time she got there and I went to the door just started crying and the poor woman had pity on me. Invited me in and over. t told me the whole story and I remember getting congratulated in the newsroom. For my scoop and thinking go what the hell did I get myself into but because I was able to make people care about that mother Barbara and her newborn Michael. The hospital eventually H.. Change procedures about how deliveries were done and that story just made a small difference and for most journalists are the ones I respect anyway. This is why you get into the profession and hopefully to make big differences often just small ones. This is also why telling crime stories can be really difficult and at first. I was a little reluctant to do this. Podcast so many crime stories we consume really are sensational and I always worry about turning a tragedy into entertainment but the nineteen ninety. Nine murder of Charlene on Devel- was one of my first big cases as a cub crime reporter and it stayed with me for twenty years and it was the hope to make that difference to find the truth or find justice for her. That led me back to her. Killing Sherman was a great nine high school student and whose family had fled Sri Lanka for Canada and on June Twelfth Nineteen Ninety nine. She went missing on her way to a job. That police later believed in exist. Four months later her remains were found in North York Ravine and as I said it was really hard to forget her and it was really hard to forget her family especially her father. Father and his heartbreaking appeal to the media in the days after she disappeared reopen. Gordon would to be to find order. Thank you I had kept in touch with her dad. Head over email over the years would often write him during an anniversary but seeing him again before we started our podcast it was clear he hadn't changed in two decades. He's exactly as I remembered him kind. personable is that always seemed to be just on the verge of tears. We met in Ottawa earlier this ear and he gave his blessing to do the podcast even though he and his family had found some type of peace whatever they could with her death and I'm part of the reason that they found piece was because the man they believe was responsible is behind bars today as a dangerous offender he was convicted in the years. After Sherman's death of two criminal harassment cases and the sexual assault of a twelve year old girl. That Man Stanley tip. It had been the police's main suspect in the case. Nineteen Ninety nine and I actually interviewed him back then so a large part of our podcast was looking at him his crime since putting all the pieces together just to try nine determine if he really was guilty. We were surprised that staling tip. It agreed to a request for jailhouse interviews right away and it's interesting as I don't normally get nervous injuries. I get nervous walking up here but at this point in my career. I don't get nervous and I've done a lot of interviews with a lot of bad people but interviewing tip it was somehow different. The stakes felt so high. Because we'd asked so many people including Sherman's family to revisit their darkest days for this podcast. I felt like I needed to get answers from him that nobody else had. The first interview was polite. Cordial lasted about three hours. And even when I was challenging him about his conviction for the criminal harassment and the contents of what police found and in his car it remained place. I had some rope. I had a hammer I had some duct gate at. I had some implying laws and stuff now. The police were looking at those items that I had in my vehicle as suspicious as something that you use for me Stanley. I have to say I look at that a suspicious I have a carney. Don't have any of those things in my car but I. I had pylons John's in the pylons that I use you know For one my son played soccer so this is pretty much interview style style. No matter who. I'm talking to slow and steady polite and we actually did cover quite a lot of ground in that interview and we caught them in a few inconsistencies but leaving the prison we felt like we barely had anything so for the second interview the stakes held higher and our team talked about taking a bit of a different approach. Convinced me to be a bit harder with him more confrontational and that really isn't my style. I actually probably terrible journalists for this reason but I don't like confrontation and I cringe listening to this now. Like I said before all I don't like all kind of amazing if somebody said to me I killed somebody. I'd be like fuck you to me is just I know the truth and just look look me in the eye like reach deep down and think about her family. Think about your family but just no just keep looking at let me just keep looking at me. Okay we all make mistakes. We all do things that are wrong. But I'm not going to keep looking at me. We would commit to something they didn't do but you keep looking away. I'm sorry I don't mean to make you stare at me but I think sometimes it's easier when people are lying. They look away keep looking. Can't me you stop looking again. There are quite a few dark last from my colleagues completely deserved at my performance performance of repeating like I'm some character on CSI and actually we didn't get much more from that second interview than the first so kind of prove my point but I left the prison feeling deflated wondering what did we achieve and was all of this worth it. It took us a few weeks after we started putting it together until I could really appreciate what we've done and the podcasts worth it allowed us to tell the full story for for the first time this was an entertainment. No one was shouting. You can't handle the truth are breaking down because I made them keep eye contact but most importantly I reached out to all those involved after including her family and of course it wasn't easy for any of them to listen to this but they were all grateful and even without without a final resolution which in this case would be an arrest. It seemed to help a lot of people. Just move on a little. The podcast actually did prompt some tips ups to possible. Witnesses never spoken to police have now come forward. And they claim that they saw tippit and Germany together But it's hard to know if it'll impact the case as twenty years later whether or not it does reflecting on. This made me realize that most people I was looking for a tidy epilogue to the Hollywood conclusion but true crime like everything else in life. Most everything else doesn't have the storybook endings and that's the reality for the majority of coal cases. Yes and those stories are worth telling to especially if we reach people and made them remember or learn about a once forgotten really really special teenager named Sean meaney. Thanks very much. You claim that we can't identify and we can't take you just because you're on the dark net Let's see if we can do that. We create the environment that they using. No we didn't we didn't like it. They made it whatever that he was is doing. He was very very good at it. He told me about a forum created infiltrated. We've taken and over and we're GONNA destroy ending fairness and this is auntie warhead. Thank you so so much for being here. Hunting warhead is he sees most recently launched podcast extremely proud of the work. Our team did. It's the culmination of years of investigative reporting. And it's an incredible story and I think it's really really important. It's also unique. CBC podcast First First International co-production last year. We were approached by Norwegian less guy named Hawkins Hoydal and how can works for Norway's biggest newspapers called VG AG in his work is really at the core of the series. And that's how I ended up in an airport hotel room last winter outside. Oslo some of the men Hawkin had written about these are guys who downloaded child abuse material. They'd gotten in touch with hulk after published. These men were actually quite troubled. Uh by what they were doing. And that's what we were doing in the airport hotel room. We were meeting with whom that these men. I'm going to call him Ola. Ola Nordmann is just the Norwegian equivalent of John Doe so I had just returned from vacation with his family there in the hotel with him. He's got a wife and kids and they have no idea about his online life. He There were spending the night. Tell them they were GONNA go into their hometown and he told his his wife and kids. That the hugh going for walk but he was coming to meet with us so before even meeting him. Here's a guy. I have some really complicated feelings about his online life is absolutely reprehensible reprehensible but the fact that he was willing to meet with us that was actually pretty compelling because you got to keep in mind there are people out there who hunt down who lure for pedophile into secluded places to Dole out vigilante justice. So just meeting with us at actually took some guts. I I admire that That you willing to do that. Why why are you talking to us? Why I mean? It's amazing. If the girls try to understand understand why this is bidding to me why I have this taught some the. How can I get help an and how tried several things and Hutton and they want to help me a tink money men like me feel the same? Why why why what to do about it and is it possible to get help when everybody's lettuce on kill you and hang you be all? It was there because he was desperate is actually clear you could tell just by looking got him. I think if I were to see him walking down the street I wouldn't think there's a pedophile. There's a creep. There's a monster. I probably would've thought there's a guy who's just been diagnosed the terminal illness broken so on one hand. You have someone like warhead who's at the heart of our series he's a pedophile. But he's also an active child molester and a major figure in the world of online child abuse and someone ultimately without much remorse. But we're isn't representative of most pedestals guys like Ola. He probably is now. Pedophilia seems to be the way people are made or they're and not ever act on those desires. Not all told us. He's never touched a child and that he's confident he never will. He says his predilection is limited to just looking at stuff on the Internet. Just but only during that. I didn't have any way of confirming that but I I tend to believe him. My point though is that. Pedophilia isn't something you can cure. You can't program out of people alike. Other pedophile is stuck the way he is. It's hard to get an exact number but researchers think that anywhere anywhere between one to four percent of the population may have PEDOPHILIAC interests. It's a big big number. We don't yet understand. Stand why and we don't yet understand what to do about it which is struggling. It's troubling for the general population it's also troubling for a lot of pedophile including Allah always attempted suicide. He seen a number of therapists but none of them have been able to help him stay off child abuse sites now there is some effective therapy out there but the issue is that it's designated for men who have already committed crimes already harmed kids so the longest shortest is that always on his own. He's caught between one to control his urges and having no idea how to do that. And in that respect a lot of men out there I think alf discuss like me when they log on they get in that set of mind and when they are the don finished logo of maybe the dude like me hit myself and and I'm trying to figure out wastes to die or I have trouble. Norway trio four computers soon the ocean to get three different. Try Get rid of this. I'm really curious how many men out there are like Ola. Men were stuck in the cycle cycle. They don't have the power to break. I don't have a number. I don't think anyone does. But I think it's probably a staggering figure. What a more certain of is that? We need a way to help. These men hold themselves accountable. That's precisely what wants to. So here's a guy. I was expecting to hate the guy who looks at child abuse. Material who helps sustain a nightmarish market. Run by apex predators like warhead but also someone who is so desperate for help opted. He's willing to put himself at risk by meeting strangers. I loathe what all it does but I do feel for him a bit. I found myself thinking talking how terrible it must be to live with this kind of affliction dismiss you paranoid Lebron secluded era. Every time I hear a car I think it's the police have a lot of bills. Which which hell so you've got you've got a plan to kill yourself if you think you're going to be arrested? Yes I can't imagine living like that Sir Heart until I spoke with. I don't think I cared that we didn't have much to offer him. Let Him Rot right all right. Let him take that ampule of pills. I think we have to be honest and admit that that's how a lot of US maybe most of us think about pedophile. It's it's a completely understandable response but the reality is if you have a problem. You can't talk about what you do. You go to the Internet. And that's exactly part of the problem here because on the Internet are all those dark corners populated by people who help normalize your desires. Who welcome you into into a subculture that encourages you to follow through on those desires? Forms that give explicit instructions on how to facilitate child abuse and sites that revel in celebrate that abuse that is precisely precisely what happened to warhead. So how do we stop. Men like Ola. From becoming men like warhead because ultimately that's a key goal in protecting kids now these these men must hold themselves responsible. That's clear they don't get a pass but it's also clear. They can't do this on their own. They need help. Nope they need our help. So here's the question of left with. Are we willing to see these people as flawed human beings as opposed to monsters. and Are we willing to help them get the help they need. Thank you it. Well well you know one of the things when I talk to people in various speeches across the country is about the cynicism about media. And it's hard to be cynical but media when I hear you guys talk about what you do and why you care about it and what you're going to be doing next I. It really is impressive. Some of you. I never got a chance to speak to until today and and I've really really enjoyed it and I think we should all show our appreciation for these Find journalists the you can hear all of their shows online at CDC DOT CA slash podcast. Big Thank you to see podcast and producer Andrew freezing and Allison Braverman. Who did a lot of work on this? They're over there and the whole team at the hot Docs podcast festival. Thank you very much coming up by for more C._B._C.. Original podcasts go to C._B._C.. Dot C._A. Slash original podcasts.
The Old Timey Lesbian Edition
"Hey, I'm aiming this the host of men up a new sleep podcast and investigates, we get her ideas about manhood, each week guest will tell the funny embarrassing or sometimes disturbing personal stories that will help you figure out what we have to learn and unlearn about being men also want to hear from listeners like you as we saw through all of our own personal messages to get subscribed to man up in podcasts or wherever you're listening right now. The following podcast contains explicit language. Hello and welcome to the wave for Thursday may second the old timey lesbian addition, I'm Christina clutter. Rucci a staff writer fleet and the podcast outward and joining me from New York today is the senior managing producer of sleet podcasts. Tune thomas. Hi, june. Hey, christina. Thank you for coming on the week. So to speak. No problem. I kind of forgot this was year week. I've taken it over like a podcast pirate. With June in slates Brooklyn studio is New York magazine editorial director Noreen Malone has done. This is our the last time. We all did a show together was Austrailia. Yeah. Let's doing this. We're in Sydney Opera House. God, dammit. And here I am alone in this like dim dress TC studio with no view of the harbor. It's in my rider view of the harbour. I don't know why it was not provided to me. Before we get started June. I hear you have something to promote at announcement. I do I just want to remind people. One more time that slate has an amazing day of programming. Available to anyone in New York City on Saturday June eighth, and we have a little bit more news about our ten AM presentation a show that we're sharing with outward. It'll be a boozy brunch. And we can are amazing special guests MS cracker who has written many times for slate. And was of course, a contestant on repulse drag race will be joining us as well. The first lady of New York City, Shirley McRae. We are going to have such a fantastic show. We're very excited and you can join us by buying your ticket at slate dot com slash live. That's on Saturday June eighth. I almost can't believe what a star studded show that's going to be fun. That's what Shirley in. And MS cracker saying right now they are. All right. So this week on the show. Oh, we are going to start off with a New York Times piece that really touched a nerve with a lot of readers, particularly women. It was about how highly educated women in heterosexual couples are stepping back from their careers. So they're husbands can work crazy long hours and make tons of money. That's not necessarily the fairest description of the article we'll get into it in a couple of minutes. Then we're going to talk about a Livia Munn who came out with a scathing essay against the go. Fuck yourself fashion blog. She was one of a couple of celebrities who've gotten angry at critical journalists and bloggers in recent weeks and finally we're going to review gentlemen, Jack, a new HBO and BBC series about a real life old timey lesbian in eighteen thirties. England and Noreen. Why don't you tell us about our slate? Plus segment we are talking about a new app to divide. Household chores and asking is it sexist to need an app in your. Relationship in order to amicably split. The household chores. Here's a little sneak peek of our conversation. I was thinking just the active list in these tests could be genuinely useful, you know, just it. It's too bad that it might be necessary because we should have a sense of what is involved in being an adult and kind of maintaining a home. But if if I do this, I get a reward though, for it's optional that is a very perverse disincentive. And if you want to hear more become a slate, plus member at slate dot com slash the waves. Plus your first two weeks are free. All right. The greedy professions. It's a phrase I had never heard of it describes jobs that require very long hours and always being on. Call lawyering doctoring consulting, the New York Times ran a piece last week called women did everything right then work got greedy Noreen. Give us a synopsis. Yeah. This piece I feel like put a lot of pieces together for me like it shouldn't have been as revelatory as it was. And yet somehow it was so the basic premise of the article is shown through one illustrative couple who by the way. Remind me a lot of a couple that I happen to know. They're both lawyers. They both went to law school. And the thing about being a lawyer is that the more hours, you work, the more money you make and it's not like a one to one ratio. Like, you work. Ten percent more hours. You make ten percent more money. It's more like you work twenty percent more hours than you make like two hundred percent more money. Right. So. What happens in couples like that is they sort of take a look once they have children, and like one person is going to be the person who's available on call for work at all times. And then the other person has to as the article put it keep the children alive, which is like very like. Like like sounded like we were on the frontier Yar also I think at that did a good job of like making. It seem essential like your. It's not just that. Oh, you're playing more games with your children or something? Like if you're not there. They're not going to go to the dentist. Yes. Right. Right. Eat. We're eat. Yeah. Right. And so what this did put into focus was the way that work has gotten more demanding which is something that, you know, people have been complaining about for a while sort of an just slightly separate lane on an another separate lane. People have been complaining about how parenting got more demanding everything is getting demanding. So people sort of divide and conquer. And it just so happens that more often than not it happens to be the woman who is saying, you know, I'm going to like cut back to half time, and I just found this. Yeah. It just was so clarifying for me and maddening, of course, and all that stuff. What was your reaction because my first reaction was that? I. I wanted it to more deeply an explicitly grapple with the sexism that undergirds. The fact that women are almost always the ones as the article lays out like women are almost always the ones in a heterosexual couple to be the ones to take on the part time job or whatever. But then the more I thought about it the more I thought maybe the power of this article in the reason why it touched a nerve for so many people was that it didn't do that much editorializing. And there were just a lot of statistics. And I think a lot of women just feel relief almost to see it laid out in these sort of black and white dispassionate terms because it means like this thing that they've sort of observed, but maybe has never clicked into a pattern like it is a systemic issue. It's not their fault. It's not just like, oh, your husband sucks, or like your relationship is difficult to manage or something like that. And and I also liked the way it put a value on. The work of childcare and household management. The piece that I have been thinking about since reading the article is this idea that women don't step back from the workforce because they have rich husbands. They have rich husbands because they step back from the work. So in other words, like their work at home actually in Naples. Their husbands to make a lot of money, and we talked about this a little bit in an is it sexist segment about Jeff and MacKenzie. Bazo says divorce and the legal default in many states. When a divorce happens is to split the marital assets in half. And in most cases that actually makes a lot of sense because you're making decisions as a team in a marriage. You're taking care of responsibilities together. And in most marriages when that happens like if one person is making more money the other person, especially in the context that this article lays out we're now in a lot of professions. It really is the more you work, the more money you make the the person who's making less money and working less is doing more of the job that makes the rest of their life work. It won't. One thing that felt very important to me that was less explicit since then that's related to the things that we will open saying, wait, the more you work, the more, you earn. But it's not actually a guarantee this is not we're not in the arrow or the segment of the workforce where you know, you if you work more than your basic as you get paid over time. And therefore, you're guaranteed that your work will be explicitly rewarded there? Still something of a gamble on this just because you work more hours. You're not definitely going to get that two hundred percent extra some people will and that is the system, but is no guarantee, and I think one thing that at least maybe I was reading through the lines or reading between the lines and projecting too much. Is that in this gamble, which is how I see it the it's makes it's kind of a better bet for the man to do the extra work because the charges are small of the he will not be rewarded it feels to me? I think that's just kind of maybe implicitly Gumbel that people make like yes, there are all kinds of. Of the reasons, but there's a there's no there are no guarantees in this particular type of greedy profession, the, you know, there's not even a clear ladder, you might become partner you might keep going on the path of these professions. Where a lot of people are kind of shed along the way, but to keep repeating there are no guarantees in. That also feels like a little bit of a factor. Here you go all the God sends it doesn't mean you definitely will get rewarded amply you might. But you might not. Yes. That's definitely true. Although I think in professions like long consulting the more available. You are to clients the more valuable, you are right, which is part of why those are so-called Creedy, or if you wanna take on like if you want to become a partner, there's an expectation that you will in if you wanna make all that money. You're going to be available at all times. Yeah. But not everybody makes partners. I mean, not everybody makes partner we all know people. I'm sure who did all the hours of the associaton and was on the path. And then just wasn't. Elected. And they weren't rewarded for those hours? Many were but it's not not everybody will be. Yeah. I mean, the thing I keep thinking about. So I don't have children that I work a job that feels greedy often. And what am I call eggs in your magazine wrote an article a few weeks ago called I don't remember the exact title, but the basic principle was outsourcing adulthood, and she was sort of looking at the way young people millennials. But also older people are just taking advantage of so many of these like delivery systems like paying through the teeth. So someone will do your laundry drop off your groceries like, you know, everyone's paying a premium to do this the thing that clicked for me reading that article because I do some of this is just like no one has time to both manage their own life and manage their work, right? And like people are getting screwed at the margins. Whether it's like paying, you know, five dollars have Amazon drop off the groceries. You didn't have time to deal like everyone. Everyone. A wife in the nineteen fifty cents. And the trouble is the people don't want to be nineteen fifties wives. Yeah. But like the there's like even more of a demand for it than there wasn't nineteen fifty like, there's even more of a lopsided relationship to work. And the other thing that I keep thinking about is like why why do people feel this pressure, right? Like the in some ways, it's like once you start making certain amount of money. You felt maybe gilts like you need to you need to like justify the amount of money. Your employer is paying you. But that's kind of a weird mindset. Right. I also think that people are there's a perceived sense of precarity even among Bill lake, you know, upper upper middle class upper class, whatever you wanna call the group of people that we're talking about here where there, you know, the couple is making decision that one person's going to make partner in a law firm and eventually make a million dollars a year. Right. Like, that's not a precarious financial position. And yet there's sort of people like that are sort of looking at the world and saying, well, it's really more winner. Take all the. Ever and for my family like we can't we must be the winners. And so just like there is this panic, and I think that explains some of the like intensity with which people approach parenting like the world is harder than ever. It's more doggy dog than ever. And so my kid is going to get all the like parental attention that will set them up for success if he's one of the haves and not one of the have nots like there's this total anxiety. I think is driving the decisions of the highest earners. Well, and it's so easy to work so many hours now, I mean recently for a series of podcast was slit that was called working second X. I spoke with potty Stonecipher. Who was I think the first female senior vice president Microsoft who went then went to lead the Gates Foundation philanthropy. And you know, I was talking about how many hours she worked because when she was Mike so she had small children. And she said that she always wore long. I was like that's just how she works. She whenever she's working. She will be working long hours. But you. Didn't have a computer with you a toll time. She didn't have a way for people to contact you at all times, then it because of mobile phones or smartphones are whatever we're gonna make myself sign with those in years old by not quite knowing what to call them. But you know, she would work go have dinner with their family, then do more like no there really aren't any times where you're unreachable except maybe on a plane or in the show, and that the fact that you can be reached even if you don't have the high level kind of job. I know like, I always I'm checking my phone just because I don't want any surprises because you can't check some people check, and that's almost separate from whatever's going on in your work life. What you said Noreen made me think of an a reaction I had to this piece that I not necessarily proud of. And I'm not sure if this is being unfair to the people who are making these kinds of decisions, but I was kind of like at a certain point you can stop making more money. Like if you really wanted. To spend more time with your kids like you really don't need to make that much money or you could hire a nanny or something like or, you know, an assistant to work part time to help you manage all the tasks in your house like it. It seems like there was a little I know people have, you know, law school debt, and whatever and that is no joke. But I had a certain point. I'm like, it's could you be a little less rich and have a little more gender equity in your relationship. Like, I would love to see a piece that's just talks to like fifty couples who have a situation like this and ask them. Why is the woman the one staying home like what factors lead to you making that decision because I know it's a confluence of a ton of factors. The like in this case, it seemed partially random like the the woman in the couple graduated during the great recession, and she didn't have great job prospects. The man graduated two years later, he he was making more money. And then, but then she says something like. Well, I also kind of -ssume that because I was a woman in a heterosexual relationship. I would be the one taking on the bulk of the tasks like, okay, why did you want to do that? Because there's I've seen a lot of sort of conservatives and libertarians on Twitter being like, well, this is these people made this choice who are we to say that this choice is wrong, or you know, who are they to complain about that they're sexism at play here. But I feel like there's if you dig a little bit deeper, you can it exemplifies the fact that there's still a lot of latent sexism, even among couples who might think of themselves as like slightly enlightened or progressive or whatever or like feminists in their personal and professional lives. Totally. And I feel kind of weird about it. Because if you look at the bigger picture, actually, there's a way that these women are making the human choice. Right. It's like, okay. You could flip the script and be like be the the half of the couple who's like I'm going to work. Eighty hours a week. But like what's the joy in working eighty hours a week? Like, actually, there's kind of a nice thing about spending time with your family. It just you know, if you want to be working outside the home. It like sucks that it comes at, you know, the choice between them, but like it. Yeah. I to me the weirdness comes with the like you were saying that just endless drive to to make more money. And I think at that point it's not about money. Right. So there is the sense of winner. Take all you know, you either make a million dollars or no dollars. But there's also something going on that Derek Thompson in an essay for the Atlantic has called work ISM, which is somewhat distinct. I think in his telling from work a hall ISM. I think in the idea that to be addicted to your work or to be obsessed with your work is almost a religion. It's like a way to insert meeting into your life than the very crooks of your identity. Right. And so if you're someone who's not getting meaning like throughout human history. Have gotten meaning from their family relationships. I think primarily not all people. And and certainly by any means, but relationship to work seems to be crowding that out more often than not which I thought was interesting. You know, I'm someone who is really fulfilled by my work. And yet I can read an essay like this and be saddened be like testifying. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a tough thing. Because you do if you're spending forty hours a week, if you don't work at the greedy professions like it should be something that you love and get meaning from right? You're spending more time doing that than almost anything else. And yet like how do you how do you see in a healthy relationship to work June? Do you think that we've opted out of these conflicts with our homosexuality? To a certain extent. I mean, yes, there is there are certain obvious ways in which same sex couples avoid some of the kind of habitual ways of falling into things. However, I know that I do feel a bit guilty about the division of labor. Let's put it in my household. Just because I don't do many things that I don't like, which is kind of the definition of adult right doing things, you don't really to after the definition. Depressing. Definite. It makes a lot of sense. I mean, it's like those bits of adulthood that people knowing they referred to as adulting. But at the same time, we don't ever argue. And if if you know, she was trained as a therapist, if she doesn't say anything, then I presume it. So okay. So, but do you think so I will never forget this a piece I wrote about this study a couple years ago where researchers asked people to read a little blurb about a fictional couple. And then divide chores among the the two members of those of fictional couple. And in a lot of the cases, you know, it was I think the study was specifically designed to test people's perceptions of same sex couples. So it'd be a same sex couple the partners, you know, they're their personalities would be like one loves rom, coms and shopping one loves sports and act. Movies like it was very clear who the more feminine partner was even when the feminine partner worked more and made more money. The people in the study assigned, quote, unquote, feminine chores to that person. So spending more time with the kids doing laundry cooking. And I think I mean, I have seen in not that every same sex couple has like a more feminine or a more masculine partner. But I think that there are ways that gender dynamics still play out traditional gender dynamics play out in same sex couples. And it also has to do with, you know, when if like two women are having a baby together, at least among the people. I know a lot of times the more feminine partners, the one that feels comfortable being pregnant, and and is the one that carries the baby. And so like in in that case that person is going to be sort of the default primary caregiver at first those are just like a couple of ways that I think it can replicate I was talking to a co worker about this. And she was like, you know, I wonder if talking if this piece or or if researchers talked a little bit more to same sex couples about how they split things we might get even a little more insight into what factors are at play. When people make these choices. Yeah. And I would just add that I think there's a little bit of I I guess you would call it internalized homophobia in my own feelings about this. Because as I've probably expressed I do feel a little bit guilty about the division of labor in my household, and partly that's because I think I do get the traditionally masculine benefit, and that makes me feel extra bad because I'm really very uncomfortable with roles, and I would never want to be like the more masculine partner on the Butch like that really creeps me out. And so I think like I actually responding to that rather than just like, you know, it works. I just pretty okay? But I maybe I'm actually having weird feelings about rather than about the actual presenting issues. Yeah. People people choose the source that they want to do like, it's it's, but like I hate taking out the trash, and so I don't like the cliche. Right. Exactly. Exactly. We'll talk more about this in our is it sexist segment about gamma. Finding the division of household labor. I'm very excited about that listeners. Let us know what you thought of the article if you read it you can Email us at the waves at slate dot com. This episode of the waves is brought to you by door. Dash is there one dish from your favorite restaurant that you can never recreate at home. But that one of your family members is obsessed by what if someone brought it right to your door. Not only is that burger place. You love down the street indoor dash, but more than three hundred and ten thousand other amazing restaurants are two and door. Dash connects you with door to door delivery in more than thirty three hundred cities and all fifty states across the United States and Canada. So if you have a family member who will only eat Chipotle, eat Wendy's or the cheesecake country, you can have those chains delivered right to your door by door. Dash don't worry about dinner. Let dinner come to you right now. 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There's no cloud of Nazis when you scoop it is one hundred percent dosed free free of heavy perfumes and helps reduce reboard dander from scooping. So what happens in the litterbox stays into? Fox new cloud control cat with her by arm and hammer more power to you. All right. A lithium mon- last week Olivia Munn. The actress tweeted a screen shot of an essay that she had written criticizing the celebrity fashion blog. Go fug yourself. The blog is run by two women. Jessica Morgan, and Heather Cox. They had recently run a couple of you could say negative pieces about outfits that Mon had warned too fancy events. So mum gets on Twitter with this essay. That says what Morgan and cocks do on their blog is anti-feminist. It's hurtful she likens it to body shaming. She says they need to acknowledge the part they've played in the suppression of women and that just because you're a woman does not mean, you're not a part of the problem. She says what the blog does is neither good nor beautiful that the two writers are not legitimate critics. She can't believe they're making money off of the perpetual, minimization of women and the propagation of the idea that are worth is predominantly or singularly tied to our looks. So. She's basically saying these fashion critics are being sexist, and she almost like places her critique of them in the context of the metoo movement. So a lot of people especially fans of the blog were confused and angered because they say this this blog, go fug yourself, actually, specifically only talks about the choices that people have made about their looks their hair their clothes and not their bodies. And that they talk about people of all genders, not just women. So not only was Monday sort of punching down at these fashion. Critics who run a blog. Meanwhile, she's a celebrity, but also that this particular blog was an unseemly target of her anger. Did you guys do you know about this blog? Do you read it? I had never read it before. Oh, I used to love this blog. I really opt reading it at some point. I'm not sure why. But in the like, let's say the late off, you know, like two thousand six to two thousand ten I was. Obsessed with this blog. It was my favorite. Yeah. The they are so funny. I mean, I don't know what they're it seems like they soften their commentary in recent years. Really? Yes. Like specifically kind of because they they don't want to be mean. But they were a lot in the sort of era of like Lindsay Lohan Brittany spears out on the town. They were in my memory, quite a bit more acerbic. Yeah. I had heard of the blog, but I'd never read it. And so honestly, when I I read a Livia months thing, I thought it was a little bit ridiculous to like actually see what she was saying was part of the meat. She uprising, but I I was I think slightly more sympathetic to what she wrote than almost anyone else. I talked to about it. In part because I know she's had her phone hacked and her nude photos leaked, and so I feel like she in particular might be sensitive to what people are saying about her looks. And like, honestly, I don't find a lot of the sort of like surface level. I don't even want to call it criticism. Just like this is ugly. And here's an analogy about what object it looks like to be like, particularly trenchant or valuable or even really criticism, and I know that's an unpopular opinion. No, I actually so as much as I was a devotee of go fuck yourself for a long time. I was trying to figure out why I stopped reading it. And I think it stopped feeling good or something or like it stop feeling original or interesting. And while I do think that Livia mine and prosecuted her case all wrong. She really did like you. Don't invoke me to to like have someone talk about your like, a badly, cut suit or whatever. But sh just because someone is a celebrity does not mean that their life is wonderful and easy. And they have a totally thick skin. And even if they don't have a totally thick skin. It doesn't matter because they're sitting on a pile of money and fame those people actually have notoriously thin-skinned, right? And who knows what's going on behind the scenes? She has not had actually like a career that's been a straight success. And yeah, I mean, it would feel horrible to like put on something. Like read someone just just tear it to shreds like that does not feel good. So what is punching up what's punching down? Like, I think for you know, in the in the air when I was reading it. It felt transgressive and new and like oh my God. You can talk about celebrities this, way, and plugs were sort of not on people's radar. But now, actually I think there has been a power shift and the internet has a lot more power than it used to. And so someone like Olivia Munn looks at this and doesn't think that it's punching down let me play devil's avocado because I'm actually probably pretty not too far from from your position, but two pieces of evidence. First of all, I don't think it was appropriate or fair or well intentioned for lithium to include a photo of the girls in her essay, essentially, not explicitly. But she was saying look at me and look at these women why? What gives them the authority to to talk about me that felt very own cool. And then the second thing is we are. I mean, I agree with you. I used to I was I was aware of them. I wasn't much reader. But I used to spend a lotta time with Tom and Lorenzo, and I just don't know because I guess I'm Tom Lorenzo just for our listeners is another fashion blog, right, right? Who do similar kinds of similar volume of like appreciative? They're not haters. They're not like the Perez Hilton kind of old school, just sniping. They care about the clothes. They write about the close the loop. They're not criticizing the person. They're very kind of mindful about that. And it's just because I'm not particularly interested in red carpets. I'm busy. We're all working like Billy. Oh, no, right. Who got time to look at a fashion. But everything has changed to know like the as we've talked about many times on this show, you know, magazines and Mike Zine covers of lost a little bit of their impact your sector for marines. Because of. Instagram. You know, we don't need access to celebrities to be on the cover of a magazine because we can just read their own stories on Instagram, or, you know, just generally the way that circulations have fallen for magazines, and we just kind of get our celebrity content direct from the source, and then the other thing is there's a little bit Barbra Streisand defense like those people who hadn't heard of the the girls are now very aware of them is kind of the Barbra Streisand defect. Believe is called when some do with eight hundred thousand followers, a a name recognition tweets about some do with a hundred thousand followers, and maybe people whose names of slightly fallen off the radar. So it feels like what what does she want? Then does she just want the kind of access guaranteed friendly magazine cover type coverage it there's there's a slight? I guess is the hypocrisy to the I'm not really ready to get behind the lithium on even though I agree. He I would not want it for one second. Yeah. I think if she was a little bit more famous. I would feel a lot better about saying. She was completely in the wrong about this. I don't know. Like, I read some of go fug yourself to, you know, make sure I could actually talk knowledgeably about this and the the first clause in their description of their site when you Google it is fug Lee, celebrity fashion disasters. It's it's like if you ran a movie review site, and the tagline was like all the dumbest fucking movies like shit naive. Yeah. I I went through a couple of slide shows, and like, you know, I went through one that seems to be all complimentary or whatever. But then other things it it didn't actually seem like real criticism to me. I then looked at Tom and Lorenzo who have come out, and you know, are defending go fuck yourself and saying like, oh the among this was unfair. I went and looked at what they said about the same outfits, and it was this pantsuit that she wore a stripy multicolored pantsuit with Lega metallic shirt underneath and a little embellishment to tie the jacket in the front, and Tom Lorenzo said something about how women's suits. Go through phases of like, they start out, you know, in in every decade, almost they start out being sort of like simple and more menswear inspired, and they get gradually more wild and embellished until it reaches the point of absurdity. And so they were basically like, and now this, you know, suit Olivia Munn was wearing is indicates that we've reached the level of observed absurdity in this cycle of women's pants, suits. And like that actually taught me something, and I found it really interesting. And I understand that in the blogosphere. Wow. That's really means. Sound extremely old and outdated. You know, the like you need to write a lot of things, and and put a lot of content to make money off of your blog. So you can't always like engage in contextual ization of whatever. Outfit. You're criticizing. But I don't know when people are coming out and saying go fug yourself is actually like a really important site for fashion criticism. I don't actually think that's what they're even going for their like humor site. Yeah. I mean, not all like Tomlin Lorenzo is one brand of fashion criticism. And like they do contextualize at a ton in historical knowledge, and that doesn't have to be the only kind of fashion criticism. Sometimes you wanna look at something and have someone like say what you're thinking in the lizard, part of your brain. Which is like that's a clown suit. Particularly like with celebrity close where it's sort of like where they're trying to get your attention. They're trying to get your attention. Like they are. Yeah. I mean, celebrity fashion is actually less ridiculous than it used to be. Although now, it seems like we're entering a phase again. I'm sure Tom Lorenzo can tell me why. But like. But there was kind of an era. And this was when I was reading it where it was like, we were all wearing these unflattering low rise jeans, and all these things that like the fashion industry was telling us where the cool things and these were the people who were selling it to us. Right. These beautiful women, and I I know that they do right about men too. But like so we were being sold. All of these trends that we're frankly like unflattering for our bodies. And there did feel like something radical about them saying like, this doesn't work. The emperor has no clothes. You know that to me was the message from the beginning. And I think sort of is still what they're saying. Like, actually like Olivia Munn, your style is doing, you know, favors, right? Like, she's you know, maybe she's gotten this for free. Maybe she's how'd you pay for it. But like you're you're supposed to be advertising for someone their clothing essentially by wearing it in public. And like, I'm not sure it's working for you. You know, like that to me, there's some value in someone just calling it as it is and making it sound amusing as you do it because the the fashion industry has every interest in. His make where more and more ridiculous things that don't necessarily flatter or work and to be Tillman Lorenzo of this conversation into contextualized a little bit. I think we should note to that one of the reasons that humans Twitter screen show. I say got this response was because it came on the heels of other celebrities kind of picking on people who you know, are pretty much at the bottom of the pile like Ariana GRANDE day, making comments later deleted about bloggers and Liz, oh making criticism of music critics who were not themselves musicians. And it I think there was something about that particular moment that made people especially journalists when say just wait a minute here. Yeah. Wh what is exactly that you want? You just want us to be quiet and only say nice things like let's just take a moment to to assess what you're really asking for. So I think we shouldn't ignore that kind of bit of context. Yeah. And I think the internet and Twitter specifically, it's it's made criticism easier to launch from both directions. Yes. So it's easier for a celebrity to see a tweet from like some random person, even somebody who doesn't have a fashion blog and have you know, there's been a lot of cases of celebrities re tweeting a random person who said something mean about them. And then, you know, all of their hundreds of thousands of followers go after that one random person Blake Shelton is famous for doing that. Or he used to do that. But it's also easier for celebrities because as you said June. They're not forced to wait to be on the cover of a magazine to say, something nice. They can just be on Twitter and say something rude whenever they want. It's easier for them to sort of hit back against people who say mean things about them, although they perceive as mean things, which you know, in the case of music criticism surely much much less personal than what? Criticizing someone's fit or the way they wear in their hair. Yeah. I would just love to see all red carpet. Celebrities wearing what I'm wearing right now. What the reins wearing? I don't even know what you're wearing pristine. But I'd love to see like non red carpet. Ready? I can tell you that sweater and jeans. Exactly, I don't know that we would really want the all right listeners. Do you read? Go fug yourself. What did you think of Lydia months essay, you can Email us at the waves at slate dot com? This episode of the waves is sponsored by phone. I am told with some reliability that mother's day is approaching and with fit phone, your mom. Can celebrate mother's day. Four times a year. It phone is basically twelve gifts for the price of one. Get your mom goodies from a variety of categories. And I really like how there are things from health beauty fitness lifestyle home at cetera. Valued at more than two hundred dollars for only forty nine nine thousand nine. 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Like, I think every one of her shows is set in Yorkshire, this one is this is historical like her movie Lesher about the Bronte sisters, and it is about a real person and Lister played by Sarah Jones, who was widely considered. I don't know quite how many people to be the first modern lesbian. She was an unapologetic. And you know, did not hide in any way her identity, and she married a woman in the eighteen th. Teas and she was also somebody like somebody with a restless mind like very enquiring. She wasn't allowed to go to university because that wasn't permitted to women at that time. But she had insatiable curiosity about a wide range of things from coal and business to brain surgery and this show, which has eight episodes. I've only seen three so far to have aired this foreign HBO is a kind of a gentle story it's about her. It's about her falling for another woman. The other woman falling for her. There's some sort of soap opera ish so plots in that sense, it is very much like a typical sully win right show. But there is also like it's based on truth and Lister, very famously wrote extensive. She kind of had gravel mania her think her diaries or something like four million words and the juicy bits were in code, which was only decoded a couple of decades ago. So you know, there's there's. There are real people real histories involved, and it's basically along FOX soap opera with girls kissing girls. What did y'all think I thought for the whole I I'd say the whole step Assode because it comes out with, you know, a couple expository like subtitles or whatever like Halifax eighteen thirty. I thought it was taking place in Canada metoo googling things need. Yeah. I was like, oh, I who Halifax is not a very well known place in England. How did is if you're Sally Wainwright fun because of less? I was like really this is very civilized for what I would imagine the Canadian frontier in eighteen thirty eight. So confused. Actually, the y'all show in eighteen thirty two have been less civilized than the Maritimes eighteen thirty two. In English accents. Hit me all I was like, maybe they're immigrants, and then I was thinking all about like, how do accents even form, you know? So it's I once I got over that. I still found it hard to follow were or maybe I didn't even really desire to follow all of these subplots that are happening. There's a really frigging dumb one about like an listers assistant who gets pregnant and then like eighties me kind of like the ladies look how you gave her very twenty th century title. That's a classic of the genre. Is the lady's maid gets knocked up, you know, and I will also use it. I realize I'm cutting you Christine are Mike and Mike and Mike crucial defensive Sally win. Right. But that is very very typical of her. So my favorite of I I like a lot of her shows. But I would say my favorite is less time. Go in Halifax in part because there's one storyline that I'm obsessed with and I literally wore out. The screener that it's a PBS sent because we rewind and it was like bay VHS. Oh be but I actually wear DVD. Yes. Because I just kept going to the same bits because I think in all of her shows she is quite like she started in soap operas and one of the wonderful things about her pieces. She has this like stable of actors that she works with over and over most of them started in the what is considered the low class northern soap opera Coronation Street. And you know, everybody just writes off the actors who are in those things and yet Sally win, right? Has worked repeatedly with many of these actresses including Sarah Jones, and they are revealed to be amazing actresses, Sarah, Lancashire, blah, blah, blah. I'm come so far off track. But what was I saying? But one of the important context important context, I'm Tom influenza. So one of the things that happens in Sally Wainwright's, she's essentially at heart a soap opera rights. I I don't say that with anything. I love the and so there's like fifteen so plus I think that everybody has a different one or two that they care about. I could care less about Eugenie, and and that nice outdoor serve. And I mean, I don't care. I don't care about any of them. Really except coal. You care about the call. I only care about the coal, really. Because I my my where I grew up my village once had the most productive pit in Europe closed. And I've been on your it sounds euphemistic. And I'm just going to go back to my my hometown. Tell you that the other thing is we know it closed in the early sixties book. There the pit wheel is no on the on the common. And this plaque says the the seam was never exhausted. Like, that's the most remote proud of a still cold on that you. Don't you taking a euphemism in England everything we should never chosen this topic? It's coal our. Anyway, some plumbers of gently. Eugenie and the guy who wants to marry her because he's in love with her. But he doesn't speak French. Usually only speaks French and couldn't care less about this other guy. It was like, it's so cringe to me. And then the, you know, there's like these sort of slapstick moments where they're trying to communicate in French and the whole upstairs downstairs drama is not one that. Drew draws me in and I think I could have forgiven that if the main plot the sort of like love story, if you wanna call it that between an Lister and her lover who's also named am which I love so much. The end the other doesn't your all the difference? Yeah. Even that didn't titillate me as much as I wanted it to I think because I mean, one thing I do like about it is that you're never quite sure. At least not in the first three episodes, which I watched whether they're actually in love, or if this is a sort of exploitative thing where in listers just trying to get this other woman's money. And is this other woman actually being opened up into these, you know, desires that she was capable of all along or is she just a little bit lonely, and depressed, and and sort of vulnerable. But it's they spend all their time talking about their relationship and not anytime actually having a relationship like I'm not convinced that they've they actually have any chemistry beyond just like the chemistry that Saran Jones brings to her own part, which she is extremely sexual and sensual Christina. It's you like period dramas in general, or you know, in that might be my pro game because you sound so allergic to the form like everything you're saying. It's like, yeah. This is how they are like. Opens age code, then they're like these long drawing room seems so much bustling like everyone just bustles so much room to room so much stomping and walking and like lifting of petticoat. Oh, yeah. It's the best. I love it. I have to sit to that. Stumping is another Sally Wainwright right thing. Her the characters that she loves, so for example, Caroline in less time in Halifax. There are weirdly probably like about fifty minutes if you to call the seasons and just isolated the scenes of Caroline just walking in a very strong swaggie manner through corridors it would probably be about fifty minutes. Like, she loves that idea. I think she really takes that as something that indicates characters vary Auden, very win writes in a lot of the fun of period. Dramas you read so much onto these lake glimpses and hand holding and what feels both radical and maybe a little bit unbelievable to me about this is the way that she really has sort of transposed the way that heterosexual relationships in these sort of Jane Austen type of things took place onto a lesbian relationship. Right. So missed Lister is totally after. After the younger woman for her money because money miss walkers money, right totally which is a classic plot. Right. And. And. That she's she's she's got hundreds of year thousands. The I don't know they've always got gotten certain amount a year, and it's like a major like thing, and you're supposed to understand how much it represents. And you're kind of like, I don't know. She's rich. This season in London. But but everyone I mean, at least I've only watched you up people are fairly just like sort of taking her for what she is. And she has these relationships in her family is like extremely understanding of them at least so far people sort of understand her to be an unusual person. But that's like mostly the force of her personality. She's a like a brash huge personality with you know, with a lot of moxy. I dunno then just made her sound like like gidget or something. But but so far, it's it's all just very natural and accepted, and it seems like every, you know, every other well off woman in Yorkshire's, secretly lesbian. Yeah. That is one thing that I liked about it. The fact that her success with women she has or has had several lovers seems to suggest that like women all over the place could possibly be seduced into lesbianism if given the right? You know, very persistent suitor, it's just like the suggestion of sexual fluidity in that time was very appealing to me. Right. Yeah. I mean, not seduced into lesbianism, but into appear to be very fun, and, you know, happy making sexual relationships with women or flirtations with women that seem to offer more pleasure. More fun. But that for most of them, they know are not actually a viable long term option, which is something that's very upsetting. Not surprisingly to enlist her who is not minded to have a so under the table. So to speak relationship instead proposed. To be open. And that is just not something that most of the women that she dallies with can even consider right? It makes it kind of structural sense. Because the seduction are so formal in that era for men and women or not even seduction there often like business arrangements Maryanne. I'm like old guy who's got a bunch of acres, and you have no with him whatsoever. And someone is like actually seducing you. And because she's another woman you like get all this time alone together, and she's super charismatic. You sort of understand it. But you know, I haven't gotten this far in the series. And I don't think it's a spoiler to say it because it's an all the coverage, but they marry so is this like a tow Temic bit of lesbian history. Did you guys know about it before? No. I mean, I so I grew up actually Yorkshire is our great rival. I'm from the old Lancashire will the coal. We know we sold the war of the roses. We there are great rivals. We're like, Texas and Oklahoma Lancashire in yoga, and I was always very. Interested in this kind of history. And I guess I'd heard her name, but I guess also I left Britain before the diaries were decoded. So I don't I wasn't particularly familiar. I don't think that famous of a story. I mean, it is now, of course. But I don't think it has been that famous of a story, and I suddenly had never heard of this marriage female couple pitch. Also might be just like an indication of what was important at the time that I was growing up in Britain. I hadn't heard of it. I hadn't heard of her at all. Yeah. And I think too though that the the sticking to the truth of the outline like including having two main characters called an might be like a little bit of a limitation. I get the the the pas about people not seeming to bothered about her affect makes sense to me because she is a class, and she also is very sniffy. When her sister has a suitor who is trade, you know, a commercial gentleman. If she's she's like, she refuses to you know, she doesn't have the right? But she, you know, she's one of these people who says well com, married trade. And so, you know, she's she is a woman of her class. And I I do like the way that that's introduced because you know, the the flaws of that are are definitely not hidden. Yes. She had. Yeah. Who's old and she's he's an altered using enough rent now. Yeah. I liked the way. The, and I imagine this is truthful the way it seemed like financial or social concerns might sort of override concerns about sexual propriety like the way that analyst or explains to her elderly aunt, you know, her relationship or desired relationship with her lover. And it makes it seem like their relatives could be possibly pleased with the fact that oh, we'll at least they've partnered with someone of the same social class and. And they'll be keeping the wealth within the family or or bringing wealth to their family. And I I read an interview with Sally Wainwright where she said that women probably liked in Lister a lot because she gave them a sense of their own worth. And I take that to me not only that she sort of expanded the idea of what a woman could be in that. Yes, women are smart and women are capable and they can travel and climb mountains and dissect things, but this woman was actually treating other women as equals in a way that probably all of their male suitors. Never did. Yeah. I'm very curious Christina if I'm list as portrayed in gentleman, Jack was transported into two thousand nineteen. Do you like how would she be would? She be a likable person. I kind of think of her like, clearly like her identity is clear to me, you know, she would be a stood I guess, and that would be like, I know the kind of person she would be. But I don't know that I would like her. I think she would be almost like an eel on most type character. I don't know that she would be somebody. I wanted to be friends with even if I thought her styles super cool. Yeah. I did know one woman in college who I think reminded me of enlist in that I think she would be kind of snooty and possibly a like conservative in a way. But, but then again, you know, perhaps living in an era of broader acceptance would have softened her, and and and made her feel more kinship with members of other marginalized communities. I it's possible. Yeah. I think she'd be a professor sleeping with her students. If you want to share your thoughts about the show with us. You can Email us at the waves that sleep dot com. I'm going to keep watching it. I don't know about you guys. Fisher me to write recommendations who'd like to go. I I would love to recommend a podcast from the CBC called uncover the village. The village is actually season three of them cover that you have to Luke uncover to find in putting up but this season is about the history of disappearance. Murder of gay men in Toronto's gay village starting in the nineteen seventies. And it's a really interesting kind of Luke back. I mean, because it's the CBC they have access to amazing archival audio coverage of new stories from back, Ben ho, these murders were covered the disappearances weren't covered in a sense. And people are, you know, the journalist who is the the host Justin Ling has talked to. A bunch of either people who were activists in those days when the really weren't very many. You know, open activists there were, you know, they talk about how there was basically, you know, the lawyer and the priests are the pastor there were the two people that everybody went to if you needed either a quilt from gay person or the police needed to find out something about the gay community. And they talks also with policemen from those decades, and it's a very measured. Very kind of gentle documentary doesn't traffic in outrage. Even though what's revealed is is very -rageous. And I just think it's a very well put together podcast is called uncover the village. I would say uncover is also the podcast that gives us the next season in the first season. Oh, I've been wanting to listen to that. Yeah. The second season is about a plane crash and was not quite successful. I would say, but I really recommend the village Noreen. I want to recommend. And Ruth racial latest memoir. Save me the plums. I love Ruth rituals writing. She has what it has always been for me like a fantasy life. I particularly liked her memoir think it's comfort me with apples. When she no might be tender with whatever. Anyway, it's the it's the memoir was she's living in Berkeley like and hanging out at shape in these all the time and to me, it's just like the most perfect way to spend your twenties and thirties, and I it's like a total fantasy from you. But what after being the restaurant critic at the New York Times. She then went on ran gourmet magazine and reinvigorated it in the dying days of Conde nast. And that's what she's written this memoir about. And so if you like Ruth, racial or gourmet this will or you like magazines, I sort of came from all of those angles. It's a really fun read their sort of the excesses of Conde, and then the quick fall. And there's tons of sort of insider baseball Goss. Tip. She does have a little bit of a like phone naive tone in the beginning. That's sort of your attaining like, oh who meaning like inside the halls of Conde nast. Which which I didn't love. But in general, I just am happy to be in her presence. So yes, I will read anything by Ruth, racial, including her crazy tweets, which are like these like zen Cohen's about like, you know, the do in the Hudson valley, and the like, you know, the perfect like bowl of saffron rice that she's eating. They're like crazy and weird. And I love the performance art of it, so maybe general booth racial recommendation. But specifically the most recent memoir. That sounds great. I am recommending a book called baby precious always shines. It's a collection of love letters between Gertrude Stein. And Alice veto clips, I initially got the book because I'm looking for readings for my wedding. And I was like, oh, wouldn't it be nice to like have a love letter from like famous lesbians? I don't think I'm gonna find something book. So it's edited by k Turner who has a really really great and fascinating introduction. And in general, it's just kind of a bracing voyeuristic in a very good way to be part of this sort of intimate exchange. I think a lot of collections of letters offer that but particularly this one because you're Trud Stein is a part of it. There's a lot of amazing like playfulness with language, and which sort of takes the idea, like, a couple's language or inside jokes to another level. You can really see like the comfort they brought each other and their daily lives how they take care of each other. But also a lot of them are about poop. So one thing I learned in the introduction to this book is that for a long time people reading the letters from Gertrude Stein in the ones from Alice veto Klis thought that the phrase having a cow and the cow was like about. But actually, it's about poop like, and I think that it was partially a sexual thing for them, you know, sort of like baby play, I guess, you might call it. I think I'm like speculating a little bit here. But but Kay Turner does say say so that in her introduction that that was probably part of it. But yeah, a lot of the poems have to do with poop. So it's really fascinating. I feel like I'm seeing a whole 'nother side to these like historical figures who I've always found incredibly exciting. Why don't you want to read a wedding? We I guess if I hadn't explained it on this podcast read it in the book, they we could have just glossed over those lines and pretend that they weren't about poop. But now that I know. I think I'm going to have to find something else. So listeners if you have any recommendations for other great wedding, readings we're like down to a month, and we still have to think of something. So. But yeah, I do recommend the book. It's it's really a a pretty quick read and a lot of fun. Well, all right. That's our show. Thank you so much to our production assistant, Alex bearish in our producer, Daniel Hewitt. If you want to tweet us where at June Thomas at Noreen Malone and at sea underscore cauda Ritchie for June Thomas Noreen Malone. I'm Christina kata rucci. Thanks for listening.