11 Episode results for "Julia Carrie Wong"
Tech reporter Julia Carrie Wong on becoming the target of a hate campaign
"Today, how white nationalist groups that were allowed to operate on facebook launched a campaign of hate against Guardian Journalist Julia Carrie one. Before, we start this episode. I just want to warn you that it does begin with distressing personal account. Went home last November to visit my family for Thanksgiving McGregor, one hundred and five years old, and she was starting to really decline in her health. We knew that it was the last Thanksgiving that we were gonNA have with her and my family always cooks. This kind of traditional Chinese American stuffing I and my sister-in-law, both picks the the sausage out the sticky rice because we eat sausage, I just have this vivid memory of her kind of. Reaching across to take the sausage herself, and saying what you don't know how to live and thinking to myself that nobody could ever say her that she didn't know how to live. The other really strong memories that I have from that Thanksgiving though a moment when I had kind of gone into the kitchen, my phone was in there and I looked down and I had an had a new email. And I it up in. It was a horrifying racist slur filled rape threat. I don't remember precisely what but I do remember that there was the expressing a desire, not just to rape me, but also I think took cut me up into pieces and kill me and I remember just kind of like dropping. Dropping my phone and kind of you looking away like realizing that I just had to not say anything that I had to pretend that nothing had happened because this was the last Thanksgiving that we were going to spend with. My my Popa my grandmother. and. I didn't want us to spend it talking about the the Nazis that at the time were were trying to scare me. It's really harrowing to hear about that message that my colleague. Julia Carrie Wong was forced to read during a family dinner and even more distressing when you find out that it was one of dozens of hateful messages sent to her. Happened after Julia reported on her attempt to get white, nationalist organizations removed from facebook. What happened next was weeks of racist and sexist harassment by supporters of those groups. From, The Guardian I'm initiative Astana. Today focus. Becoming the target of a campaign of hate. Julia this started in late twenty nineteen. When as a tech reporter, you're covering the controversy around the launch facebook news, and in particular the decision to include the highly controversial Breitbart News as a trusted source. That lead you onto another story. Didn't it being a tech reporter guests? At in this day and age to include this intersection with. Him and hate in the context of that. I decided to take a look at how facebook was doing. When it came to keeping explicit and openly white nationalist groups off of its platform with facebook the there's always a huge gap between what the stated policy is, and what the actual reality is when it comes to them. Actually! Putting in the resources to police their own platforms, so I decided to just go take a look and see what was out there among the groups that I found was read ice TV which is a a really violently hateful Neo Nazi Organization v Dare which is one of the oldest and kind of more, established, vehemently anti immigrant. Organizations these were just some of the groups that were still existing on the platform in in November, twenty, nineteen. You know which is two and a half years after you know. We had seen killing by white nationalists in Charlottesville more than six months after facebook had said that they had banned white nationalism that this stuff was still on their platform I mean that was pretty shocking. What happened when you alerted facebook tour? What happened when I learned facebook to? It was what normally happens when I have alerted facebook to these in the past, which is that they did nothing a will tend to respond by saying. You know yes, that like we do. Do have a policy against white nationalism, but then they will start to argue around the edges and simply say you know our policies don't apply here. We published our articles a couple of days later. I think maybe five or six days after publication they did come back to me and say that they had decided that red ice TV that they were going to ban that group. They did not take the same action against V dare. Vedra remained on the platform until actually this May when they kicked them off for violating a completely different policy and other groups such as Holocaust denial groups that I had also fled to them. We're using the platform. They just said explicitly actually that they don't have any policy against coastal. I mean you set the? facebook reacted in the way that they've reacted before. What happened before, so this is. This is not the first time that I've that I've gone to to facebook with information about far right extremist hate groups using their platform to organize. It's actually the third time. Know just in three years. That I've done this. It's kind of turned into an annual tradition and one that I wish it didn't have to to do. In twenty seventeen I started working on a story about what I was observing, which was that there are a lot of extremist groups and a lot of extremist organisations were popping up in the real world that had their roots in organizing on facebook. This is not snot. People that are kind of hiding themselves as like a men's club, this was. People that were using the language of Jim Crow. Groups that were existing openly on the platform. And when I took that to facebook, you know they. They had no problem with I. Think anything more than a couple. I you know I think that they took down the ones that actually had kkk in the name, but many of the most dangerous groups that would a couple of weeks later become kind of national and international news because of their involvement in the Charlottesville unite the right protests that resulted in the death of heather higher, many of those organizations facebook looked at them and said yeah. We have no problem with them using our platform. You know they're. They're not using the platform because they WANNA. Share pictures of their kits. Extremist. Groups use facebook because they want to recruit new members. They want to organize line events, and they want to spread their propaganda. Either you know by finding a new audience or by a harassing and going after the people that they hate so there's no kind of. Neutral positive use of facebook as a tool by hate groups. That's not what they're there for. And, that was facebook, but of course the next thing that happened was the white nationalist groups using the platform began to target you. Tell me how they responded. They they they responded with a lot of anger and I guess not surprisingly a lot of hate. When we published an article that points out that you know. These groups are on facebook against facebook's stated rules. The the perception rate is that you know. I'm saying that these groups should come off of facebook, and when it comes to white nationalist hate groups. Yes, I think that those groups should come off facebook with the November story. What was kind surprising was that. Breitbart which I had also discussed in my article, decided to assign a reporter to write about me and started sending emails to me me, emailing my editor, trying to assert that I am the real racist. And at the same time, the white nationalist groups started to attack me on social media and start to spread the word that I was this evil leftists mainstream reporter that was trying to censor them. That was trying to get them kicked off the Internet I. think that they kind of worked in tandem and it just kind of unleashed this massive harassment campaign that was quite ugly and difficult. You know just. Tons and tons and tons of you know just websites blogs kind of pseudo publications that I don't really WanNa name because I don't send people to their websites, but. They've started writing articles about me, Kind of dissecting my particular racial background, which is half, Chinese and half Jewish and that. Of course is something that is just disgusting and appalling to to white nationalists into racists. I think we all try to or I. Try to pretend like this. Stuff doesn't bother me, you know. I'm a reporter, I. You know. I went looking at this stuff, but. At the same time you know, it is deeply kind of. Disturbing to look at an article written on some website that talks about me by my full name. includes a picture of me and then says you know that I I am the result of a of a racial Molotov cocktail that you know it's so frightening because. The. You know that that unite the cunning of the Jew. In the meticulous math, mathematical mind of a Chink, the creativity that these people have when it comes to just saying the most hateful and disgusting things about. Race and gender is it's just a strange thing to know that I exist that. My family exists that we have what I think of as a very beautiful mixed family with you know different heritage's and that is something that I've always been. Crowd, of because I love my family and I love our story in the fact that my parents got together at a time when interracial marriage was not that common in that you know my grandparents became friends and you know there's all this. Stuff that to me is very beautiful about my family, and so to have that be twisted into something that is so disgusting, ugly to other people to have that part of me be. The subject of somebody's disgust, not anything that I've done as an actual. You know actor as an agent. Things that I've done in my life, you know it's just difficult to kind of be face to face with that just kind of base discussed with my own existence. I mean of me wants to say to you. Don't listen to a word of there S. Beautiful Image of of your family life as well. The vast vast vast majority of the people in the world would say, and these are disgusting people on the extreme on the other hand. You know I've never even one hundred of what you're describing and I've sat in my lounge and cried my eyes out literally about streams of Abuse Online, it is very very difficult for you to deal with and it must. Must have been incredibly scary as well. It's I. Mean this is. This is just something that I'm continuing to kind of deal. With as a reporter I used to report on police I used to report on protests and I would go out, and and the threat that I would be aware of something that was physical, and that was one kind of threat, and this other type of threat has just been. it's it's. It's just difficult to to deal with, because it is predominantly just demento thing right like they. This is a tactic to get people to stop reporting on them. It's a tactic to get people to stop trying to stop them from gaining more supporters. They stream of. Came to you through all sorts of different platforms, but it began because of your reporting on how some of these grapes were not being banned. From facebook. Did you go to facebook. Did you tell them? The group's still operating on their site targeting Eli this? It's interesting because with other platforms there have been instances where staff have noticed a harassment campaign and have actually reached out proactively. Facebook has never done that with me. I don't really want or need facebook to to deal with my personal situation, so I'm not sure what I would even want facebook to do what I mean besides what these articles are about. which is that I want facebook to actually enforce its policies against white nationalism on its platform. Want facebook to stop providing its tools to hateful extremists, and even if he didn't go to them on a personal level, you have been gained to them about. What you found in November. They acted in one case, but not others. Did anything further happened beyond that no. I mean no, so even just in the in the past couple of months and knew explicitly violent far right. Arose on facebook called the Blue Group and despite being alerted over and over again throughout this spring, facebook did nothing until after there had been multiple. Criminal violent acts linked to the group and again facebook finally took action on those groups, but only after somebody had died. COMING UP! The pressure mounts on facebook as a campaign to stop hate for profit is noticed by the world's biggest appetizers. Since you and of as become hiding, pressure onto facebook about some of these graves, a lot has happened to the social media giant. We've of course had pandemic The black lives matter protests that began in the wake of George Floyd's death. FACEBOOK didn't add against Donald Trump's post. The one where he wrote wants the looting starts shooting stars and. That became a flashpoint around failure by the platform to tackle hate at one point mess. Staff staged virtual walkout. We covered this period where it all UK technology editor Alex, hearn! But really it feels like the turning point for facebook. Seems to have come when appetizer started to pull out. Tell me how that took shape. The controversy over the the looting shooting threat that trump posted. It seems that that helped to coalesce This coalition of organizations that came together to say all right enough is enough we need to. We need to go after facebook's bottom line, groups, color, change and NWC, EP the anti-defamation League. Some other organizations came together. They called this boycott. And they were asking advertisers to stop running ads on facebook platform for the month of July, it started to gather steam. It was getting a lot of support from the outdoors industry, and then it was a Friday, just at the end of June was kind of first thing in the morning on that Friday Unilever, which is one of the largest consumer brands kind of holding companies in the world and and I think one of. Of the largest advertisers in the world they announced that they were pulling all their advertisements from facebook, instagram and twitter, and not just for a month, but actually for six months so shortly after that announcement, you know all of the reporters on the facebook. beat got an email from facebook. Saying just wanted to let you know that. Literally in twelve minutes from now mark, Zuckerberg will be going live on facebook with an update Twelve minute won't. AMMO I did I. I was like wow. Much notice. This doesn't seem just doesn't seem like. It was hastily thrown together in any way. I know I've got this kind of an image in my mind. Just panicking. FACEBOOK's will I assume are incredibly shiny headquarters in Silicon Valley running around. Yeah, believer of God. What can we do so so can? You must have sat down at your computer. I'm watched what happened? Sadly I think that probably the the mental images that everybody was running around in their own homes, because we're so under lockdown here Mark Zuckerberg appeared on this video stream he. I have to be honest. I mean he's not. He's not comfortable public speaker, but he seemed particularly uncomfortable and kind of on the defensive. We determine the content may lead to violence or deprive people of their right to vote. We're GONNA take that content down. Who says it or Anada cropped? He announced some very league minor tweaks to some face, but policies which seemed they seemed. To appease certain criticisms, but they were quite narrow. It didn't really work. You know I think it was just a few hours after a Coburg appearance that coca-cola another massive advertiser of course also pulled out and joined the boycott a few days later, we saw kind of the debut of. Another kind of aggressive move in this PR campaign, Nick Clegg, who is now facebook's top executives for policy and communications, and formerly our Deputy Prime Minister of course, of course he published an OP. Ed In a trade publication for the advertising industry where he was making the case that actually facebook is a hate and kind of attempting to recast our kind of general consideration of facebook to say. Let's stop focusing so much on what's bad and start really calculating and paying attention to all of the good things that happen on facebook, which to me kind of suggests that they have come up with some kind of moral calculus and moral algorithm. And that that on balance facebook is is coming out on top. How did you imagine that working when I was reading? The Clegg's Abed just have this a mental image of him. You know sitting down with his balance sheet at the end of the quarter, and saying well I see that in the red. We have this murder of a security officer who allegedly was carried out by extremists who met and coordinated their attack on facebook. But look here's one for the black and adorable grandmother just liked a photo posted by grandson who lives five hundred miles away I'm sort of joking, but there is a very serious side to this the the most kind of notable being that face, because actually been implicated by the United Nations for playing a role in the genocide of the Rohingya in Myanmar has been used to incite violence against Rohingya refugees living in the country's routine state. Rohingyas are a Muslim minority group. Myanmar's Buddhists led military launch brutal crackdown on the group last summer, forcing around seven hundred thousand Rohingyas to flee their homes. FACEBOOK is trying to deal with this blow to its reputation. It's not just appetizers themselves it some of the groups you mentioned the NGOs who are cooling on appetizers to boycott, a platform groups like color of change and. They actually have had a meeting with. Zia Mark Zuckerberg I. How did that guy? Yes so they had a meeting with Sucker Berg. You know the number one word that the leaders who were part of that meeting kept repeating after it was just disappointing. These groups have been talking and talking and talking and talking with facebook facebook. Keep saying well. Let's keep having a dialogue. Let's keep having a dialogue and at this point they seem pretty pretty fed up and kind of just over the idea that dialogue is going to is going to move the needle because they've been in dialogue for several years now it seems to me that the maybe many reasons why facebook don't act more on this I'm just interested in whether. In their minds, it's a practical thing that they think it's too hard to do because of the size of their platform, or if it's a conscious moral decision, they think it's not their job to intervene I think that with facebook and this this is just speculation, but I do think that there is a way in which they have taken a pragmatic approach, and then kind of Jerry rigged a moral argument on top of it at scale that facebook operates. It is probably impossible for facebook to be. Responsible and vigilant about hate on the platform. You know they are in more than one hundred countries. This is more than a hundred languages every single. kind of local context is different and hate. Speech is not something that can be algorithm. Mickley determined it is. You know in almost every case. It is expressed through context so there are plenty of kind of you know statements that would sound completely benign if they were made in a context of total equality that suddenly become very frightening. If you can understand the historic racist dog whistles, for example in the US, where there's you know, there's a whole vocabulary of how racism in the US can be expressed without using slurs. The idea that facebook could do an effective job of being a a moderator of of all of those different communities. Is probably just fundamentally unrealistic. It should not be controversial among people that are thinking seriously about free expression that if you only pay attention to not censoring and don't pay any attention to the ways in which those you are choosing not to censor might be using speech to silence others. You are failing to protect the freedom of expression of vulnerable groups, because there are groups that are subject to harassment campaigns and subject to pressure to be silenced. And facebook has time and time again. Just kind of fill to acknowledge. That failed to see that. If you have white nationalist on your platform that are doing everything they can to silence people that say that white nationalism is bad. That you're not creating an environment for free expression. You're actually just letting your platform behind jacked by hate. And Julia that sounds. Like exactly what happened to you that groups who you spoke up against sought to silence you in the most horrifying way. All Ye sometimes tempted to pull back and not right about this. Yes. We haven't done not yet. ooh! That was Julia Carrie, Wong. We wanted to do this episode with her. Because the amazing piece, she wrote about what she has gone through. Do look up at the Guardian Dot. com, it's title is the hate facebook fosters destroys lives. Here's what it did to me. And while you're bad, do read all of her brilliant reporting on their stretching back years. We went to facebook about this episode and a spokesperson side. We are making progress keeping activity off our platform. We've found over two hundred and fifty white supremacist organizations and removed four point seven million pieces of content to organize hate globally in the first quarter of twenty twenty over ninety six percent of which we found before some reported it. This is an increase from three months earlier when we removed one point, six million posts over eighty nine percent of which we found before someone reported to us. We are committed to keeping hate of our platform. FACEBOOK also said that they remove any content that celebrates defense or attempts to justify the Holocaust, or mocks Holocaust victims or accuses them of lying about the atrocities or hate against Jewish people in any way. They said that they had commissioned an independent human rights impact assessment into the role of their services in Myanmar that have been published in two thousand and eighteen. They said the progress was being made across five key areas, including accountability, improving enforcement of content policies, engagement, trust and transparency. That set today. This episode was produced by Serena Boxing. Sound design was by Axel Kukuchi The executive producers on coal. Jackson and Phil may not. We'll. Be Back Tomorrow.
Jeff Bezos and the United States of Amazon
"<music> today a closer look at billionaire Jeff Bezos and his Amazon Empire and what is the feature for T._v.. News I'm very famously by the time that he was working on Wall Street. He was lonely. He didn't have a girlfriend and he started to try to apply the same kind mindset that he would apply as dealmaker he started to try to apply that to dating. You have an investment banker who thinks about deal flow you know the number of opportunities that come up keeping that flow going going and then making the right choices he similarly came up with a model that he called woman flow he had certain standards that each woman needed to meet as far as intelligence and resourcefulness and different characteristics that he was looking being for and he let it be known among his circle. You know that he was looking to increase his women flow ironically that or not ironically because I think that most people would agree that making a personal relationship is a little bit different than a financial ordeal that is not how he actually met his longtime wife in fact Jeff Bezos met his now ex wife when he was working on Wall Street in one thousand nine hundred four before they moved to Seattle to set up Amazon a business that would eventually make bays the richest man on earth buying from Amazon is fast convenient cheap and becoming practically unavoidable but Amazon's reached doesn't stop online shopping from the Guardian and I'm indirection today in focus. Should we be worried about Jeff. bezos says Amazon Empire so he kind of here he liked he liked to system. We like to see the world in kind of solvable equations. He has a mind that really looks. I think to the structure and you know kind of the infrastructure of how things work Julia Carrie Wong has been following the rise of Amazon as technology not reporter for the Guardian U._S. so even when he talks about his decision to leave behind very high powered job he doesn't talk about you know that he had a dream he doesn't talk about you know taking a risk he thought about it as a regret minimization mutation framework as if he himself were business that he was managing <hes>. I want to have lived my life in such a way that when I'm eighty years old I've minimized the number of Congrat- that I have I ice in the absence sold online with books why that was was absent here interest to him. I don't think that he had any particular interest in books. What he has said is that he drew up a list of twenty types of goods that he could get started in because books are incredibly unusual in one respect and that is there are more items in the book category and there are items than any other category by far but his ambition was always that he would sell everything everything that could be sold would be sold on Amazon and many of these things that he imagined have have come true so he ended up going to Seattle because the major distributors of books? I had their warehouses in Seattle so despite Amazon being you know this digital company. That's you know of the future the Internet it was also very much from the beginning he had his eye to the nuts and bolts of what you need to do to physically move goods around the country and understanding that it needed a lot more than just a nice looking website and why the beginning when started it was the kind of sort of legendary tech startup beginning getting that we all picture wasn't it exactly so the business was set up and they ran it out of the garage famously. They used a door for a table to hold their computers on and he realized that it was actually cheaper to buy a door and two by four pieces of wood and hammer them on and create a table. It's a symbol of spending money on things that matter to customers and not spending money on the things that don't it's kind of emblematic of his very kind of frugal approach to what the business should be you know to spend all of their money are things that are going to affect the customers and if it comes to to your own employees personal comfort those are the places where he's tended to cut corners and be much less willing to to splash out Amazon's philosophy has always been deeply deeply focused on the customer experience <hes> it's described as being kind of Amazon's North Star that everything focuses on the customer. It's not scary <hes> and is very very fast Amazon.com discount so many books that even it was a shipping you end up saving money. It's fun is vast piqued my interest he's always had a very long range vision as a business leader thinking about things when he thought about his own decisions he was thinking on an eighty year timeframe them as opposed to on US three year timeframe the five year timeframe you know the the way that most people starting out in their career might think for the customer Amazon only exists on the computer screen but Bazo does have an office so we wangled angled an invitation and in one thousand nine hundred nine this amazing today with him for sixty minutes and it was kind of I look inside the Amazon offices. He's kind of saying that Russell faced with Amazon Dot Com spray painted on a big sign sticky ball three checking light sticky bowls at the wall and giggling over time yes. He has a very famous and very kind of particular laugh at this point in five years old. What did the world make of Jeff Bezos at this point? Many people saw him as just another dreamer. I mean the number of people that thought that Amazon was was just riding for a fall. You know just kept growing. People just thought that this was crazy that you would never make money selling books on the Internet I was in becomes more than books they start selling CDs and it doesn't stop that. What areas does the company start to expand anti it might be easier to talk about the areas that Amazon hasn't expanded into because this is a company that has its fingers in almost every aspect? Aspect of the economy days to twenty three days CDs electronic goods clothing homegoods almost anything the thing that you can put in a box and ship thanks to Amazon Dot Com. I started making their own T._v.. Shows making their own movies as a studio Amazon web services has become a massive part of their company. They run the cloud for huge sections of the Internet. They have very strong artificial intelligence services they sell facial recognition products that can be purchased by local police forces. It's it's hard to think of a product area. That Amazon hasn't moved into Alexa. What do you do? I can play music answer questions. Get the news on whether create to do lists and much more awesome they were Amazon's web services to go down. You would find huge numbers of the websites that you might go to on a daily basis simply cease to work even net flicks which is a a strong rival of Amazon when it comes to web streaming entertainment uses Amazon web services to host their content it is under girding a huge amount of the infrastructure of our economy and and increasingly of the U._S.. Government has recently been protests over Amazon's relationship with U._S.. Immigrations Immigrations Customs Enforcement or ice and the Department of Homeland Security because Amazon hosts that databases and some of those allow agencies to track into poor immigrants there also talks at the moment to host biometric trick data for homeland security that sensitive personal data including Aikawa and skin markings so their relationships really do go beyond commercial and into the heart of government they manage the of cloud services for the C._I._A.. Which is some of the obviously some of the most sensitive and important to protect data in the world? They are competing to become the cloud service provider for the entire U._S.. Department of Defense this all of Thomason the cloud computing sevices. How worried should we be about the control by have if they're controlling one third of the world's cloud computing <hes> that is is actually less than what they're controlling of the United States e commerce which is almost fifty percent in both of those cases it is concerning because that is a massive massive concentration of power that doesn't really have a counterweight in the United States? There are signs that our government is starting to look into an investigate whether or not there is an antitrust case to be made against Amazon as far as some of its monopoly power so this was the announcement last week that the U._S. government would investigate complaints that tech giants including Amazon facebook Google Apple with squashing out the competition focus of this inquiry will be on the size and might of the firms how they've expanded the reach into additional businesses and how they've leveraged the power of having large networks of users on it's GonNa look at that hold on things appetizing online sales and cloud competing but so far we haven't really seen <hes> regulators and public officials really putting forward a framework to start to reduce this amount of power our they have one of the ways Amazon has been able to grow and to expand into so many different areas is through bases business strategy of buying the competition and back in two thousand nine. There was the acquisition of the online shoe companies apples awesome what happened there so ZAPPA's was another up and coming ECOMMERCE company when they focused on selling shoes wanna put a smile then experienced your shopping is apo sway Zappa's would but you order two pairs in different sizes and then send back the one that didn't fit which took a lot of the uncertainty out of buying a pair of shoes online for people that grew up going to a shoe store and trying them on. I we're not happy with our shoes until you are Amazon was struggling to get its own strew selling organisation off the ground. It's been said that they then started to really go after cutting prices and because Amazon had this great amount of investor backing from Wall Street it was able to really really challenge ZAPPA's at that level until the Zappa C._E._o.. It seems basically said all right and he sold zepos to Amazon. Amazon spent a lot of money acquiring brings apples it costs them nine hundred million dollars in stocks and the have also over the years bought up other companies like audible in two thousand nine they bought the video game streaming site twitch in two thousand fourteen whole foods in twenty seventeen many anymore and these acquisitions have always been driven by the need for instant prophet and that has been one of the things that Amazon has been consistently willing to do and that Amazon's investors have given it the the runway to go for with the understanding that if we become monopolists if we can really own this entire market we will not be taking losses forever you know in the past four or five years as the rest of the competition mission in many cases has fallen away or been acquired or being pushed out of business. We have seen that Amazon's prophets have been shooting up. Let's talk about some some of the stories that come out with the Amazon warehouses the stories of the conditions the people who work for Amazon because that's a bit of a controversy inside the business isn't it there has been great amounts of reporting of how these workers are treated as if they are the precursors to automation while Amazon is still working on perfecting the robots that will eventually replace them. They are constantly timed for every task that they do when it comes to pulling things off the shelves putting them into the box and getting those boxes ready to go. They are constantly monitored and tracked at every step you had Tom. You got the bathroom if he wasn't al the bathroom within that time period. Then they were looking for you one of the most disturbing aspects of the New York Times investigation into Amazon's corporate workplace practices in Twenty fifteen was the number of people who said you know I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I suffered a miscarriage carriage. My Dad got cancer and very very quickly felt that they were pushed out. When Jeff bezos responded to the New York Times allegations he said quite the optical doesn't describe the Amazon I know how does he respond? Criticisms of the treatment of his workforce in the past year or so Amazon has become more aggressive about pushing back against criticism especially from elected leaders or we're seeing this incredibly large company getting involved in almost every area of commerce. When Senator Sanders started to to forcefully criticize Amazon <hes> Basil's did respond and they did agreed to increase the minimum wage for directly employed warehouse workers to fifteen dollars an hour as of November twenty eighteen but for the most part for for many years of Amazon's they basically just almost ignored the criticism because they knew that it wasn't changing customers decisions even for many kind of progressive liberal minded customers who might philosophically know that there is exploitation going on behind the scenes of receiving the toaster oven that you want in forty eight hours after you order it people are still ordering it was in his Osa? I faced criticism for the amount of tax pays in two thousand eighteen. They made eleven point two billion dollars in prophets in the U._S. but they didn't pay any federal income tax for that year they maintain that they pay all the taxes are required. Pay The U._S. and every country where they operate what's going on. Amazon is like any other American Corporation or probably Global Corporation in that they do everything that they can to pay the the bare minimum that is required them Amazon set itself up in Washington state and for years you know enjoyed this advantage of not having to pay sales tax for Non Washington State <hes> purchases when they decided that they needed it to open a facility on the east coast they chose Delaware which has no state taxes as opposed to any of the other states on the east coast where it might have set up and been subject to higher taxes so they're they've always waste from the beginning looked to minimize their tax bill and so that's part of it is Amazon. Being very intentional part of it is also that you know the U._S.. Government has not taken up the challenge to say actually we we should tax this company. More a large percentage of these workers are actually on forms of federal assistance because they don't make enough money to support themselves in their family and at the same time our laws are not requiring Amazon to pay. It's fair share towards funding those public assistance distance <hes> programs so it goes both ways and there's definitely blamed co around so I'm one hundred this quite terrifying image of Jeff bezos. This guy who sees the world in equations. He's a ruthless businessman he kind of wakes up AIDS competitors for breakfast but then on the other hand you know in twenty thirteen he bought the Washington Post and that feels quite different. Doesn't it most of his other acquisitions what happened there. Why did he by the paper Jeff bezos purchase of the Washington Post is a strange outlier when you look at the rest of his career? This is the richest man in the world and he has shown up until a few years ago almost no no interest in philanthropy. There is a giving pledge among these incredibly wealthy billionaires that <hes> Many others including Bill Gates Warren Buffett Mark Zuckerberg have all signed onto that they will give away at least half of their fortunes by the time. Did they die but <hes> Jeff Bezos has not so when he decided to purchase the Washington Post I. I don't think anybody really understood what was going on he he he was able to buy it for two hundred fifty million dollars which to somebody like Jeff. bezos is probably the equivalent I was kind of doing the math myself and I think it might be the equivalent of me as a guardian reporter buying a new sweater so it was no money off his back a big lump yeah maybe splashing out and having a nice cocktail but by most accounts he has been a really great steward for this legendary newspaper that like all newspapers has had been very much struggling under the new economies of the news business. You know I've always believed and I think a lot on us a rare. It's not a rare belief. I think a lot of us believe this that democracy dies in darkness that certain institutions <hes> have a very important role in making sure that there is light and I think Washington Post has a seat an important seat to do that. It's an interesting and frankly very voluble thing that he's done and it's also interesting thing because I do think that it has placed target on his back towards Donald Trump to do him credit does not seem that Basil's has done anything to put any pressure on that paper to back off in reporting on the trump administration `lustration or generally reporting on on Amazon itself. We should say that he used his own money to buy the Washington pastes not part of Amazon and he also used his own money to pursue his own big space ambitions with his company company blue origin with a view toot saving humanity when our descendants looked to the stars perhaps more rocky moon or calling his floating and Open Space Bill. Remember this time you might have a picture picture of his rocket if you haven't you should but at the same time Amazon shareholders recently rejected proposal from about eight thousand of their employees to create a climate strategy. Why do you think that that's aw priority forbe's capitalism requires constant growth right and the point where we are with the earth with climate crisis with global heating is a point where we're realizing that there is a limitation on growth for many of us? This has inspired a look inward to say what do we need to do to change the economy to make the sustainable and for some small number of billionaires. There has been a looked skyward to say well actually. Chile we can continue to grow we can continue to expand infinitely Jeff. bezos is not alone in this. There's also you know Richard. Branson Elon Musk other billionaires day that actually this experiment of constant growth with little thought ought to sustainability to me. It seems a bit mad because even if we can get some small number of people into space colonies. There is going to be untold suffering on Earth if we don't address the problems here here but again Jeff Bezos is somebody that takes a very long view knowing what we know about Jeff Bezos now. What do you think his vision is for the future of Amazon? My personal theory of Amazon is that they are in many ways looking to replace the state and be kind of the primary institution that people interact with on a day-to-day basis fifty percent of U._S.. Households already are members of Amazon prime which means that on a monthly basis half of American households are paying a kind of tax to Amazon twenty dollars a month in order to receive the benefits of being kind of citizens of Amazon nation and it's really kind of division of the world where people are not so much citizens as they are consumers and customers and Amazon will serve more and more of their needs. They're moving into healthcare. They're moving into insurance. You know we're kind of at a point where you can start art to see that that we might be the United States of Amazon as much as we are the United States of America Juliet. Thank you so much. Thank you as great talking with you. <music> we contacted Amazon about this episode with regards to work conditions. I'm and said it simply not true to say the Amazon fulfillment centers are in safe. They say that employees can and take short breaks at any time to use the restroom to drink or snack and that there are multiple bathrooms and break rooms on every floor they added Amazon announced. It's fifteen dollar minimum wage increase because we wanted to lead on this issue on the topic of tax. They stated that we've paid two point six billion dollars in corporate taxes since twenty sixteen we pay every penny we owe in response to recent protests over the hosting of Homeland Security data. They told us we believe strongly companies and government organizations need to use existing a new technology responsibly and lawfully we remain eager for the government to provide this additional clarity and legislation they also commented on Jeff Bezos as a desk saying today the door desk is more symbol of our humble roots and a reminder of our frugality leadership principle which reminds us that constraints breed resourcefulness self sufficiency and invention pension coming up why younger audiences have turned their backs on T._v.. Knees now young audiences are sitting down in front of the television to watch the news less and less Jim Morrison is the gardens media editor and has been looking what this might mean fifty generations nations a lot of people in the U._k.. Still Watch T._V.. News seventy five percents of the population still get some of their news from television but that figure is falling and among young people oh they've almost entirely deserted the format which raises all sorts of interesting questions because the average person aged sixty five plus in Britain is watching about thirty three minutes of T._v.. News Day Young People Those Age Sixteen Sixteen to twenty four a watching between two and three minutes a day. There's a complete disconnect between these two audiences and how they can seeming the news young people on what Shing T._V.. T._V. News because they're not watching TV. They're abandoning the format for all but love island and a few sporting events young people who aren't watching T._v.. Bulletins you want shooting into the B._B._C.. One ten o'clock bulletin of instead increasingly getting it from from all manner of places. The main thing is actually in some ways. We don't know we think getting it more from what's up instagram. Even snapchat is backed out by some of the stats but the main thing is it's more indeterminate access. That's the Internet with stories just flying around in isolation one sent by a friend one from the Guardian out one from the thing that they just sort influence opposed on instagram it results in a very strange media environment for the news because we just don't know all of the time <music> I'm what people are consuming this massive disconnect between that group of the population and older viewers who is still stuck in that habits and show no sign of changing when we talk about the media in this country we often do in an odd way where when we talk about it as if there's a transition for some audiences to online that sort of thing we were talking about ten years ago. This is now happened for launch. Chunk of the population. The Internet is their news source and that is a thing that politicians have to be aware of in particular previously the target of someone who was working number ten communications was to get on the news at ten and get their stories the top item and get it presented how they wanted now they have to try and reach the same size audience through disparate number fool Matt's reaching out to young people through all manner of ways and that's a lot harder 'cause a lot more thought and inevitably that's going to change how politics works the sort of policies are chosen and the messaging around them and at the moment stuck in the very difficult position and trying to balance the traditional audience who is still tuning into a bulletin and trying to reach a younger audience who just on this is going to change society politics wchs is reflected through a media and shapes the issues the policies the get highlighted this no way back from this. It's happening. It's one of those generational shifts that happens such as when the first radio stations came along then the first T._v. stations the Internet is bigger than all of those terms of it's transformational effect and we still don't really know where we're going to end up. This is still early days. That's all for today my thanks to do more to send and Julia Keri. One dookie has posted on what you think of today infocus. We'd love to know. Leave us a review wherever you are listening. Today's program was produced by Elizabeth Cussin' Coney Yousef. I'm Razi. jillette sound design is.
A week in the life of 8chan: Chips with Everything podcast
"The of years lewis at the beginning of august. Two mass shootings rocked the u._s. The first which took place in a busy walmart store in el paso texas and killed held at least twenty one people is believed to have been a hate crime like any <hes> <hes> mass shooting in the united states. What we have seen is the city kind of shutdown. Some people reacted fear. Frankly the streets were empty yesterday afternoon and well into the evening restaurants bars that are joined generally quite popular or busy on the saturday night <hes> simply close and it was really out of nozzles. The suspect time recording is a twenty one year old white man who is alleged to have posted a manifesto online presenting his rationale for murdering those he targeted and the connection to h._s._e._n. Was particularly concerning right from the start because this is a pattern that we've seen in multiple deadly incidents. It really only took a few hours for journalists like myself and others to start looking into whether the connection to chen was real this so called manifesto was posted on an extremist message such board called eight chan and as the shooting took place anonymous uses of the site were posting messages supporting the actions and calling him our oh a guy among these posts about someone wrote quote that's it. This website is getting shutdown. It has simply taken a really long time to get companies to face any kind of ramifications around what is happening on their sites and you know i think that with a chen and with the other companies that were enabling it to keep going. It's a really kind of frightening indictment of where earth things are that it took what appeared to be <hes> something like seventy three deaths for that message to really come on that. This was not acceptable will h and be able to come back from this and if it can't is that an indication that society will no longer accept the spread of hate speech online but where we just see the birth of a new site the provides more of the same. I'm jordan erika weber and this week. I explore whether websites like eight chan a destined didn't disappear. This is chips with everything. My name is julie kerry wong. I'm a technology reporter for the guardian of based in our west coast bureau which is in oakland california close to san francisco. Julia has been covering the fallout around eight john since since the mass shootings happened at the start of the month before we got into what will happen next. I asked her to take me all the way back to the beginning. Eighteen is one variant on on a particular type of website the chans as they're known are kind of they started out his text based message boards and and then evolved into image boards these are kind of these sprawling message boards that enable a lot of you've got an entity and encourage a lot of kind of creativity and engaging in memes during the early two thousands four chan which is one of the grandfathers of the chan movement chen was the source of a lot of internet culture that was more aimed in debt fund and trickery and humor than was at some of the darker stuff that the chance have devolved into h._s._e._n. Had already been established in twenty thirteen by the founder frederick brannon and he had created it because at one point the owner of fortune had briefly shutdown aboard that he enjoyed spending time on and in response to this of frederick brennan made a new site called h._s._e._n. Or sometimes it was called infinity chan based on an eight if you turn it to the side is the infinity symbol the fundamental idea of h in was that the the owner would never delete boards he would leave it to the users to moderate themselves make up their own rules for various different boards eight chan wasn't that popular for about the first year of its existence but then in the summer of twenty fourteen game a gate happened violent depictions of women being beaten uh-huh raped and run over by cars. It's not the movies it's video games and now the women calling gamma gate is a hashtag used by people participating in a harassment campaign campaign against progressivism in video game culture after a female video game developer was falsely accused of an unethical relationship with journalist people began to send a rape threats and death threats and released her personal information a practice known as doc zinc and this harassment soon spread to other women feminists and other marginalized progressive people in games eventually the founder of fortune chris pool decided enough was enough and started to take down the boards that mentioned gaming gate supporters of game gateway infuriated with this decision and looked elsewhere offer a home frederick brennan welcomed them with open arms and at at that point a mass exodus of the most committed gamer gators went to eight chen and according to reporting at the time frederik brennan was very welcoming them and said you know absolutely come on over and then became the home site of people <unk> who were too extreme even for fortune which is a pretty extreme site as well as gators eight china also welcomed in the conspiracy theory board q. anon which had also been kicked off fortune mccue is a shadowy figure who who has been using a chance to post messages that he clings are clues to a vast and very complicated unquotable deep state conspiracy theory involving pedophile house and supposedly forces that are embedded in the u._s. Government that are trying to bring down a donald trump's presidency among other things but it's largely nonsensical and incredibly convoluted it also involves a a lot about the kennedys in other strange disconnected things in the last six months the far right message board has faced enormous criticism for allowing various white supremacists and domestic terrorists to use the site to tell people of that plans to perpetrate eight mass shootings before this latest incident however eighteen belly responded so h is currently need owned by a man named jim watkins who in about twenty fifteen took over the site from its original founder and not a huge amount is known about jim watkins. He is a u._s. Military veteran who currently lives in the philippines and watkins has has done very little to defend or engage with the critics of his sight after the christ church massacre he simply stay the course as far as maintaining that the only rule is going to be things that are against u._s. Law which very much limits government restriction of speech h to anything beyond a child abuse or child exploitation material and really direct threats so he has continued to to keep a hands off approach and has simply not addressed the critics as far as people who use h chan the response wants to these attacks in many cases has been cheering encouraging and celery tori which is part of what the deep concern. What about this site is is that you know. Many people are anonymously offering encouragement to others to undertake these same horrific acts in order to gain praise and notoriety from this community of anonymous h here's so on august third twenty anti nineteen a man shot and killed more than twenty people in el paso what was happening on eight nine at that time about twenty minutes before the first nine nine one one call came in from the walmart in paso the so-called manifesto was uploaded to eight ten very quickly a couple people responded with encouragement and very quickly the document was downloaded and then began to be rio uploaded by other users on the sites in some cases with encouragement about the importance or messages about the importance of off spreading that information so other people on the site took personal responsibility to say i'm going to download this and then re uploaded in order to make it harder to scrub this from the internet which is what happened with the horrific videos and copies of the live streaming of the christ church massacre <hes> throughout the day on a chan. I was dipping in and out just to watch. There's discussion of a quote unquote high score which is a reference to to the number of fatalities as those numbers started to come out on a saturday evening folks at a nonce onsite referring to the suspect as is quote unquote our guy very much identifying him as being part of that community as journalists like myself and others started to identify that if there's manifesto was real and it did turn out that there was a strong link to h. e. n. that this would be the third mass shooting announced in advance on this site as that message started to get <unk> out people on the site also started to express anticipation that the site would be shut down that this would be the incident that forced they chant off the internet just because it was such a high death toll after the break. We'll look at what happened in the week. Following the el paso mass shooting a discuss discussed whether this event will lead to eight chan's downfall. I think it's likely the ancient itself. It might get back onto the surface web but it's highly unlikely that it will be kind of as stable and talk. I would guess as it was before. We'll be right back. Welcome back to chips with everything. I'm jordan within erika weber this week. I'm talking to guardian tech reporter. Julia carrie wong about the role eight chan played in one of the latest mass shootings to happen in the u._s. Before the break we had about eight john's past but when the suspected shooter posted his so called manifesto to eight john twenty minutes before he entered that walmart what he may not have realized he was going to affect the websites future at the time of recording eight chan is down a not because its owner jim him watkins has taken it down eighteen is down because it lost the protection of a web infrastructure provider called cloudflare. Her cloudflare is a company that is involved with a huge number of the sites that you use every day eh but that is completely invisible to the normal reader it provides among other things protection against diaz attacks which is when hackers will. We'll decide to send huge amounts of traffic toward the site. It's fake traffic in order to attempt to bring that site down and what cloudflare does is it sits in between all of the traffic and the site and kind of siphons out the fake traffic in order to keep a a website from going down based on d._o._s. tax so they're not actually hosting the material and they're not engaged in the actual content for years cloudflare fought any criticism they faced faced over who they chose to provide their services to but eventually they had to listen to the critics for several years now cloudflare's decision to be completely content neutral in who they provide their services to has meant that it has faced criticism for providing those services to really apparent and in some cases dangerous websites there was an expose in early two thousand seventeen about the fact that cloudflare was protecting the daily storm her. You're a neo nazi white supremacist website that has been kind of the staging ground for some really frightening n. Vehement anti semitic second and racist harassment campaigns and cloudflare had staked itself on a principal saying it is not the job of the intermediary the filtration service it is not that positions job to be a sensor and they have kind of a philosophical belief that that when it comes to internet content moderation that should occur at the level of companies like facebook or youtube or twitter google which you know curate and promote content but that it should not come at the level of straightforward infrastructure that doesn't actually come into contact contact directly with that content producer daniele was watching your tweets on saturday and sunday as you talked about your interactions with clouds blasio matthew prints and he went back and forth on what to do. What was his final decision. And why did he come to it. Mcadoo prints decided on sunday afternoon or evening that he was going to fire a chen as a client and no longer provided with any of the the protection against d._o._s. attacks. I actually interviewed him around. Ten pm on saturday <hes> so you know twelve hours after the massacre and at that point we had a long conversation you opt for about forty minutes and he reiterated his commitment to neutrality pretty and also to the idea which he was focusing on at the time that keeping a chin within the normal parts with the internet and within his own network that would allow law enforcement and investigators have more visibility into what was happening on on h in his argument was that if he kicked h. hand off in the same way that he had decided two years earlier to kick the daily stormer off that ah the site would still survive it would have to move to a less reputable service it might have to move to services based in other countries but it would still oh exist and instead of having company like cloudflare which cooperates with law enforcement requests in warrants it might go into a place where law enforcement would have yeah no visibility into what is happening. That argument did not last for another twenty four hours by sunday. He was is reconsidering its reported that he spent much of the day in conversation with staff and various advisers at the company until sunday evening. They announced they were going to cut off and h. Hand was removed from cloudflare's kind of zone of protection at midnight on that sunday night matthew prince i wasn't wrong when he assumed that if cloudflare decided to fire eight china's client than another company would just sweep in and take on the site instead but it didn't exactly go to plan and so what happened was switched to another company called bit mitigate on which is also providing the u._s. Mitigation services and bit mitigate had a brief brief bursts of attention because it is also the company that started to provide protection to the daily store after the storm was kicked off their ah bit mitigate took on a chan and very quickly the company that mitigate dependent on for service face epoch cutoff mitigate so one of the things that is confusing about the web is that all of these different companies are relying on all all of these other companies each of whom has their own decisions. I think that all of these companies saw what you saw the kind of public pressure that was placed on cloudflare and the ones is that you know have a reputation to protect our increasingly hesitant to have any association with a site like a chen and so that kind of zone one of untouchable nece might be expanding and that's what we saw happen with bit mitigate at this point eight hundred remains down and the systems and minister has been saying on twitter that he's working on getting the site back up but it is possible that it will be forced onto the dark ebb where you have special programs to access it and it will it will be kind of quarantined from the regular internet that your average browser can just access salie from regular browser. All of this proved too much to ignore and eventually avon's owner. Jim watkins who had stayed quiet on previous. Occasions decided you to speak up. What a sad weekend. I just finished watching being the president of the united states give his condolences to the families of the victims of the walmart shooting and the dayton ohio shooting. It is a tragedy for those families wednesday morning. Jim watkins uploaded a statement to youtube appears on video very seriously in reading this statement with the strains of taps behind him in this giant backdrop of benjamin franklin and he expressed rest <hes> a certain amount of condolences towards the victims of these tragedies but also took the chance to kind of lash out <unk> at various easy targets and also make some very questionable claims he accused the press of lacking credibility in criticizing the sizing it at pointing out that there is a lot of <hes> that there has been a lot of illegal activity on the site he also lashed out at matthew prince said that cloudflare there had acted a in a cowardly manner without thinking and he claimed without providing any evidence that the manifesto manifesto was actually i posted on instagram and he claimed again without offering any evidence that the person who you ended up posting the document onto h._s._e._n. Was not the alleged shooter. There's no real way right now to who <hes> verify this statement and he offered no evidence to support it a spokesman for instagram very quickly said that they have found absolutely no no evidence to support this theory though the suspect in the shooting did have an instagram account which the company shut down once they knew who the suspect was on saturday but instagram is saying that that account had not been active for more than a year before the shooting julia explains that we don't know exactly what the eight chan uses themselves think of the whole thing but the silence could be dangerous so we have been working on reporting and trying to find out some of the places that they you know that these users might have gone as they've been dispersed. There is a good chance you know that. A lot of this discussion is going to move into private or places private. Discord servers are a popular kind of way to have a massive group chat without very much visibility and dischord has tools that can allow for are kind of vetting of people before they enter into a room certainly on four chan there has been a lot of chatter about not wanting to accept what are being called h. Refugees because many people on that site find eight channels to just be too much and they don't want them to come back. There are a host of other kind of alternative chance that are out there and we'll see if any of them become major ager meeting points but it does seem likely that much of this activity could be pushed into less is public possibly encrypted spaces another option that that folks are are speculating would be that they would move onto telegram <hes> and and have more <hes> encrypted chats with less visibility to the public. Do you think eight thomas vows this. I think it's possible that some version of a chan will remain on the internet that i mean the internet is very difficult to police and there are so many different levels of places that things can be hosted. I'm skeptical at the moment that h. e. n. as it existed prior to saturday is going to come back in the same form mm-hmm. It might get back onto the surface web but it's highly unlikely that it will be as stable and popular. I would guess as it was before so even if you know h on in its current form is gone come. We claim that as a victory over the kinds of people who use it i. I definitely don't think that h._m._o. Going down is going to be a particularly meaningful victory. As far as the we kind of global threat that white nationalism is posing right now shutting down a chen is a a bump in the road. I think for that movement and it's important i would say that this movement be forced to face as many bumps in the road as as possible. It needs to be challenged from all sides. This is a this is a deadly and dangerous ideology. I think it is a victory as far as helping to move people further into the mindset that we need to be combating this violent ideology and the people that are trying to push it and the people that are trying to recruit people with fun jokes on the internet and then get them sucked into this mindset but i think that you know there's a lot more that needs to be done taking down. A chan is not going to win that much bigger bow. I'm sure this isn't the end of the story will be following closely on tips huge. Thanks to julia carrie wong for joining me on the show this week you can find all of her work on eight china and other tech stories on the guardian website chips is produced by danielle stevens. I'm jordan erika weber. Thanks for listening for movement. Put costs from the guardian. Just go oh to the guardian dot com slash costs.
The growing influence of the QAnon conspiracy theory podcast
"Today have cue an-and conspiracy theory spread across America and into Europe. Conspiracy theory are nothing new basically a teenager in high school I was hugely invested in the nation of Kennedy. Totally, thought, it was a conspiracy. Watch all the TV shows and all that kind of stuff and that ease me into being a nine eleven truth her and to Migraines. Not, Israel nine growing up in the nineties they were fun and he thought normal one day I was talking about that with a friend online. He yelled at me for being an idiot. I was confused because just everyone thought nine eleven was Ventura job. What do you need live story? And then I started doing research and then I started realizing that he was probably right and I was an idiot and that led me into starting to ask like, why did I fall into a conspiracy theory of Culture was doing what was the point of all that? Today Mike is still obsessed with conspiracy theories, but now he focuses on debunking them. And he's become consumed by fighting one in particular. Q. An-and. In two thousand eighteen. started. Hearing more and more about on how big conspiracy theory however almost buying into it before leaving. And? Sounded exactly like Manati stuff that I've been researching protected. And that was basically just all of that. But Donald Trump's good. which was the twist I was I get it on twitter I started teaching on this and I got to read up learn more about non. And then as I did I was. Same story correct two decades just swipe spin on it with trump being a good guy thing now mike has become kind of Pune on expert he's spent his time trying to steer people away from it and counseling people whose family members have gotten sucked ten and there are a lot of debunking in pointing out how ridiculous it is. It's kind of like my now my day agenda because. It's really terrible the damage this thing does the people and can start so incredibly popular. Is kind of scary scary. This got as big. The stakes be higher last year Cunanan was like. As they potential terrorism threat by the yard and his believers if linked to numerous attempted acts of violence. From The Guardian I'm Scott Steiner today in focus the growing influence the Cunanan conspiracy theory in American and European politics. I I started to hear about Cunanan in the spring of twenty eighteen. A couple months after it had first emerged on the image board four Chan Julia Harry is technology reporter for Guardian US based in San. Francisco. And there were some news reports that a militia in the southwest was going around to homeless camps searching for pedophile 's just kind of harassing some homeless guys in the process and reporters traced this back to a false belief that there were child trafficking rings all around the country tonight a series of popular social media videos are creating a problem for local law enforcement. A group of people believe they have uncovered a child sex trafficking site, but Tucson police say it's nothing more than an abandoned camp. This belief was being fueled by this new. Conspiracy theory that had taken off that people were calling Cunanan, and that's kind of when it first started to trickle up into the press. Do you know where it had come from Cunanan is kind of a second iteration of a conspiracy theory that took off in the US during the two thousand sixteen presidential election which came to be known as Pizza Gate. Basically John Podesta. Who We couldn't campaign manager had his emails stolen. And they were dumped on the web thousands of pages of very banal emails, many of which involved discussions of eating food going to restaurants and sometimes going to a certain pizza restaurant in the DC area that is pretty well known. And conspiracy theorists on the Internet, decided that they had uncovered that there was a secret code and that actually when he was discussing, you know going to this pizzeria having pizza for dinner. You was actually secretly discussing a child sex trafficking ring that he was running with the Clintons out of the basement of Comet Pizza in Washington DC twenty year old Edgar Welsh was arrested in Washington Sunday afternoon outside. Comet Ping. Pong. Popular Family Pizza Parlor DC police say Welsh fired at least one round into the restaurant floor within fifteen rifle like in December of two thousand sixteen, a man armed with an assault rifle actually went to the pizzeria and fired his weapon into supply room door thinking that there were children being held captive behind that door in the basement. The building where this pizzeria is doesn't have a basement there obviously were no children but. You know this was a man who honestly believed that there were children in peril and it gives you a sense of how powerful this conspiracy theory has been at moving people to take action based on the flimsiest of evidence. Sounds beyond upset and it was shown to be beyond absurd although that's little comfort to the owners of Comet Ping Pong. But how did that turn into Q. on? After the shooting pizza gate basically died out the press that had been pushing this the influencers that have been pushing this kind of came to their senses but in October of twenty seventeen. So about a year after trump's election. A new figure popped up on four Chan, which is an anonymous image board. That's kind of well known for having very extreme right wing Neo Nazi, see outright community on some of its boards this figure who came to be known as Q. started posting in October and was intimating that he or they had secret inside knowledge of high level activity that was going on inside the government that was going to bring down the Clintons in Specifically Hillary Clinton and show her to be this great criminal. So the very first post that q ever made on four Chan predicted completely falsely. That Hillary. Clinton. was going to be arrested the next day and that this was going to set off serious riots and civil unrest and of course that didn't happen. Did Not. Happen it did not happen. But that was the first of what have come to be known as q drops. It's been almost three years now. Q. Has posted more than four thousand of these drops here they use a lot of code, a lot of language about the various government agencies and in general through these drops. Q. Has promoted a narrative. Wherein. Donald Trump was kind of chosen to become the US president by core, group of people who are trying to save the country and really trying to save the world. From a secret cabal of powerful people which includes Democrats, Hollywood, celebrities, and billionaires. So basically, you've got the Clintons. Barack Obama a George Soros who is a constant bogeyman. Bill Gates and then Tom Hanks Oprah Winfrey Christie Tigon a whole host of rich and famous and powerful people secretly running the world through Kabbalah. And a major part of what they do supposedly is run child sex trafficking rings. They then kill the children in order to extract their blood and drink it in order to you know revive their own kind of life force I mean I'm laughing but I came into this Julia genuinely wanting to be open minded. While it is almost funny that they believe that Hillary Clinton is actually drinking the blood of children. It's also really important to keep in mind that this is a very old and very common narrative and it follows the contours pretty precisely of classic anti Semitic conspiracy theories. So the Protocols of the Elders of Zion a very common twentieth century conspiracy theory that believed that There was a couple of Jewish elders who were controlling the world controlling the media and taking the blood of children. That is a very kind of. Classic narrative that has never died and even older than the protocols is the fundamental blood libel, which is a thousand year old conspiracy theory about Jews falsely accusing Jews of killing Christian babies and drinking their blood or using their blood to make Mozza this is just the same old anti Semitic conspiracy theory that has been recast with new characters but as using the exact same story and a lot of that anti, Semitism has actually been expressed quite explicitly both by q in q drops and by the followers of this movement. From the very first message, which began HRC that's Hillary Rodham Clinton Extradition Ordine motion effective yesterday. There's been so much stuff that is provable to be wrong but never happened and Sounds completely. UNHINGED WHY DO PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT! I mean, that is the million dollar question, right? So. So one one of the people that are spoken with migraines are I really hate to think that I would have been that kind of person who in a professional poker dealer and also kind of a conspiracy theory enthusiast he's not a believer, but he's very interested in the movement that built up around them. So he is one of several moderators who helps to run a sub read it on, which is kind of a message board on read it that is dedicated to Cunanan casualties basically family members and friends and loved ones who have lost somebody to this conspiracy theory who are no longer able to really. Have a normal relationship with somebody in their lives because that person is no longer living in objective reality were here for like people who that. Or loved ones that have gotten addicted secure non or here to help them out. We're like space. Community plays Bass for people tell their stories to their fellow people that have that are dealing with this crisis and have to try to find understanding about why their family members have gone totally insane in general the community that reads over these drops and kind of tries to decode them and come up with meaning from them. Will, just adjust their belief system to whatever changes an end shows itself not be the case. So it's it's never that Q has made a mistake in what here they said it's always that the interpretation was mistaken. Do we have any idea who Q. is? No. There are a lot of theories. I don't really personally have a strong opinion except. That whoever is doing this? I think is a person that is acting with great malice because. This is a a movement that is really Damaging both. Our Society and abroad lovell and individual people's lives. Let's talk about scale. It's easy to dismiss this type of stuff. It sounds completely off the wall, but if we just think back to where you started pizza K.. Serious somewhat into the restaurant and fired shots now. Have said if pizza gate was a low budget movie than Cunanan's the blockbuster sequel, what do they mean by that? Cunanan has just taken hold in a way that pizza gate could only dream of a I. think that is a really good analysis. And the question of how many people believe in this is really hard to pin down. Looking at the online communities. We can definitely say that it has grown significantly this past year especially since the pandemic started. There's been huge growth in the facebook groups that are dedicated to this. I was able to observe you know groups that started out with something like ten to twenty thousand members from March to August growing to have more than two hundred, thousand members. And so overall, there are millions of people in on groups on facebook. One indication that I actually was able to glean just based on the Guardians Own. Traffic tools is that this summer? I think in June. One of the Q- jobs linked to a guardian article. that was a year old. And within twenty four hours after. Cute. Posted that link, a hundred, fifty thousand people had gone to the Guardian website to read the article, and so that was in June that was even before there was a huge amount of growth in July and August. So I do think that we're talking about hundreds of thousands of people at least I'm not sure about millions. This movement has just really grown quite a bit over the last couple of months. Okay. So I understand how this spread from one post on four Chan through eight Chan to facebook but it's gone beyond that has an way. One of the ways that this really broke out into the mainstream was that in two thousand, Eighteen Cunanan followers who are also trump supporters started. Showing up at his rallies and working really hard to get Cuban on signs on TV behind trump Florida. They wore shirts and signs and blazoned with only the letter q their number seem to be growing and they were spotted last night at president. Trump's Florida rally. They are a new fringe conspiracy theory group called q a Non I, WanNa bring CNN. was a very effective way to get you know newsdesks to say well, now we have a video of trump's speech photos of trump's speech, and there's all these signs in them saying Q. Q. Q., what is Q. who are these people and what are they believe? I think that another really effective manipulation Dick has been running candidates for elected office. So in the past year, we've seen I think more than six St Cunanan supporters you sign up and run for Congress for State representative seats. The liberal leaning group media matters for America has identified twenty candidates who qualified for the November ballot and have supported queuing on theories or use their hashtags or freezes on Social Media Nineteen of the twenty candidates are Republicans. You know it creates a lot of attention will any of them? While at in a really concerning case in Georgia. There is a candidate who is actually probably going to win and who won a contested primary Marjorie Taylor Green. I'm marjory green and I approved this Ad America's the greatest country in the world we need conservative in Washington that will keep it that way for several years was logging and posting videos about her belief in Cunanan. Q. Is a Patriot we know that for sure but we do not know who Q. is okay. So now she's also posted just a vehemently racist and his Lama phobic videos than, and she actually won a contested primary against another Republican candidate who is pro trump pro gun pro-life president trump tweeting congratulations today to q. and on Conspiracy Theorists Marjorie Taylor. Green after she wanNA seat in house and this is a deeply Republican district and she will. Almost certainly be elected to Congress in November what is trump have to say about all of this? So. For a very long time trump was both ignoring Cunanan but helping to fuel it because he has I think more than a hundred times. Re tweeted the tweets of Cuban on followers Mojo than hundred times. Yes. I mean it. You know it's it's really incredibly negligent if not more malicious than that in. August he was actually asked by a reporter whether or not he believed in on it. Prompted the theory it is this belief that you are secretly saving the world from this satanic cold of pedophile and cannibals. Does that sound like something you are behind I, haven't I haven't heard that but Is that supposed to be a bad thing or a good thing and He did not tamp down on this conspiracy theory. If I can help save the world from problems willing to do it. I'm willing to put myself out there and we are actually we're saving the world from the radical left. Philosophy instead he said that Cunanan followers love our country and like him very much. I mean. It's just outrageously reckless that he declined to debunk this false belief. Your reporting has brought into contact with people for him. This is all very real family members of q believers. I'm interested in is type of person seems to go for this if we think back to pizza gay. I was struck by the description of the monument who walked into the restaurant and fired a gun because. He sounded so ordinary was a softly spoken father of two who was deeply religious not what you may have thought of in the past as the classic stereotype of conspiracy test. Is there a way to describe the type of person drawn to and on? Light kind of has described the stereotypical Cunanan believer as somebody older softened like baby boomer generation the person who's addicted to Cuban on his usually kind of parents. And the person talking about is is one of their children. and. Their horrified by what happened in A. Huge overlap between Evangelical Christianity and Cunanan, and of course, we're talking about conservatives people who are already in general already are pro trump. Did you get to understand why? These people believe this what it was about queuing on but appeal to them. I don't know if I could say necessarily why people fall into Cunanan. Were really living through a period of time that is you know it's disruptive. It's scary. The pandemic has created a amounts of fear for people about their children and their families and their future and a lot of anger at governments and institutions that have failed to keep us safe. Trying to make sense of that, I think that there's something very comforting about kind of latching onto a narrative that says it actually, this is all the fault of Democrats, Hollywood celebrities and billionaire Jews and I think you know that narrative has been very popular at other points in history there are real problems with the material conditions that people are dealing with an Cunanan. Offers up a narrative that both makes that makes sense it. It has a built community. You can feel like you're in on the secret you're one of the people that is smarter than everybody else and really get what's going on I. think that can be a very attractive emotional poll of conspiracy theory and and Mike talk about how you know this can be fun for people looking for clues. You know there's there's an element that this has just become a hobby. Details, you have to catch these little things where the bad guys give up the game and reveal who they truly are and. You like when you when you do that, if you're able to find those things, you are rewarded by the community with adulation and praise. So it encourages you to keep playing the game chasing that Dopamine Hon I've gotten really into house plants and knitting during the pandemic and a lot of people have gotten really into you know. Looking for clues in these messages and posting about it and you mentioned casualties. Did Mike Talk about how you get people out of this. Yes. So he kind of compares queuing onto a substance addiction and his advice for trying to help people come out of this kind of mirrors like a rehab process that you might follow if you had a loved one who was having a problem with with some kind of drug or alcohol, the most heartbreaking thing. That I get on cute on casualties is basically they just ask me how do I get some back like my loved one has gone insane. But what are the magic words that make them become uninspiring and? I just have to tell them that it's so hard to get somebody out of a movement like this. It is so hard. To shake them of their faith because that is what they have. Now, they actually have a face never belief system that's predicated upon this nonsense and he talks about you know removing the substance which for killing on is often the Internet what was really frustrating was the the first step that you need to break somebody from a group like this is to distance the victim from the group. And that always tell people before cove it. We'll take him camping for a week and just kind of get him out in the wild with their cell phone work and they can't go online 'cause if a unionist, get them off the Internet for a week and just like. Reconnecting with nature and society and real family like that can go along away until like helping them like see the world isn't this just nightmare plays that they've been programmed to believe it is. And Then, cove it hit, and now you just can't get him off the Internet now there's going GonNa be online all the time and you know the Cunanan casualties sub, read it a lot of it is just support for people that are dealing with this because honestly. I don't think anybody. Mike or anybody else on that read aboard really has easy solutions for how Out of poll people back from this. These. Huge companies when you mentioned fortune and h but if also mentioned facebook carrying content, what is their responsibility how they responded to all of this? You know I I think that almost all of the social platforms have been incredibly slow to take responsibility for on and really negligent. The one exception to that is read it something like seventy thousand people were subscribing to the Maincune on sub Reddit as of the fall of twenty eighteen and read it made a call that there was so much harassment talk sing and incitement to violence going on in this community that they said were banning it. And for the past two years there has been no Cunanan presence on Reddit. For communities like Cunanan casualties were help people who are victims of the conspiracy theory. By contrast youtube twitter, facebook have had just a completely hands off approach to this. You know the the reason that I started really reporting on on this past year is in April and May there started to be a movement on facebook of groups that were forming to protest the corona virus lockdowns. I joined some of those groups just to report on them, and within a couple of days, facebook started to recommend that I. Join Cunanan groups. Which I was just astonished by I had not shown any interesting Cunanan and so I did join that group and joined a lot of other groups in the more that you joined the groups. The more that facebook recommends that you join more and more and more you start to. Kind, of Algorithm, Mickley facebook was helping to drop people down the rabbit hole. And it was only just a couple of weeks ago that facebook finally took a stand and kind of adjusted its policies to say that where you on followers are discussing violence, then facebook will take those groups down. Honestly it's. It's just another situation that we've had with facebook where you know they're closing the barn door after the horses bolted. Coming up qn on arrives in Europe. sleepyhead. Why so sleepy? Oh. It's because your mattress is a bag of potatoes and scrap metal. You should try a nectar mattress. Award winning layers of comfort you can sleep easy knowing you got incredible value mattresses start at just four, hundred, ninety, nine dollars, and you get hundreds of dollars in accessories thrown in as well as three, hundred, sixty, five night home trial, and a forever warranty. GO TO NECTAR SLEEP DOT COM. If America. Has It gone beyond America? Has It reached Europe? It has it. It's really gone international Latin. America's some parts of Asia and Europe have all kind of seen growing, queue it on movements. I know that. In Europe save our children marches started to take off in recent weeks. And, there has been again kind of this confluence between that and then other kind of far right groups. Another one that is from Mike Collusion Liverpool. Hello, James. Everywhere, I go on a lot of people that I may a talking about queuing a non child trafficking child abuse and the dynamic being used against us some even believe the viruses fake but nobody in the media seems to be addressing any of the above subject I kinda of got the reply Upset are kind of based on conspiracy theories about five G. have have kind of adopted this and such that you had thousands of people in London that were gathering some of whom were carrying. On. Signs or Cunanan flags also had a very large protests in Germany. March in Berlin is mostly against corona virus restrictions but there are a lot of Cunanan supporters here. Thanks to the corona virus that Cunanan conspiracy theory is spreading around the world like a pandemic. You may not know the answer to this but do you have any sense of whether the German or British or European supporters of Cunanan also buy into the trump theory? All they worshiping trump through this. I think that in general it is adapting toward local politics. I think that in these different kind of closed networks, people can pick and choose the aspects of the conspiracy theory that worked for them within the broad narrative of the powerful ball. So it sounds like is bigger than trump which brings me to the next question I was going to ask, does this come to an end if he's no longer in office? One hopes. You know I spoke to a a man who lives in Texas whose wife has become a true believer in Cunanan and he is not a believer and you know he he was telling me that you know he feels very confident that once trump is no longer in office that this will disappear And I would love to believe that but when you look at kind of the longer view. Of what this fundamental narrative is I mean the blood libel conspiracy theory has existed for a thousand years. You know we all want to believe that World War Two ended any false belief that US actually control the world, and yet here we are again with a new spin on the same old conspiracy theories so. It's possible that whoever is posting his cue could be exposed. It's possible that trump gets voted out of office, but I don't have a huge amount of optimism that this is something that's just going to go away. Genia. Thank you very much. Thank you. That was Julia Carrie Wong. You can follow her reporting on cue and on and Silicon Valley at the Guardian Dot Com. My thanks to her and to might rains. That set for today this episode was produced by mightily row. Sound design was by Nicholas. Cox the Executive Producers Unequal Jackson and Phil Maynard. We'll be. Back Tomorrow
Armed and Dangerous
"Send it in early and then go and vote. And if it's not tabulated, you vote and the vote is GonNa Count Fraud in the defense of democracy is no vice legality no virtue. From WNYC in New York this is on the media. I'm Brooke Gladstone and I'm Bob Garfield the murderer of two protesters in Kenosha gun-toting team is the latest militia related stories to make headlines. But the movement's origins go way back in nineteen, sixty, four, seventy, six percent of Americans would say that always most of the time they would trust the government by Nineteen ninety-four that had dropped nineteen percent now takes to organize outrage into paramilitary action is a place to post and get angry courtesy of facebook's algorithm. Employees are increasingly saying the social effects of this company are frightening and something needs to be done. It's coming up after this. Listener. Support W. nyc studios. From WNYC in New York this is on the media. I'm Bob. Garfield and I'm Brooke Gladstone. Number has the phrase law and order is invoked by a president come to mean. So clearly, it's opposite illegality and disorder starting with the first illegality like. Twice on Wednesday Donald Trump encouraged his north Carolina followers to cast two ballots one by mail and one in person it in early and then go and vote. At of it's not tabulated you vote and the vote is GonNa Count You can't let them take you vote away. These people are playing dirty politics. In some states you can ask for your mail in ballot to be invalidated but intentionally voting twice is fraud nfl any in most states, the president defended seventeen year old kyle written house who traveled with an assault rifle from his Illinois home to Kenosha. Wisconsin to enforce law and order, and now stands charged with six criminal counts including first degree, intentional homicide, first degree, reckless homicide, recklessly endangering safety and possession of a dangerous weapon is a minor. He shot to protesters to death and wounded a third but to trump, he is the victim he was trying to get away from them. I guess looks like any fell and then they very violently attacked him. And it was something that we're looking at right now and it's under investigation but I guess he was in very big trouble he would have been. He probably would have been killed this but one week after his Republican convention showcased accused felons mark and Patty mccloskey who brandished guns at peaceful protesters in front of their saint, Louis home and who are now official. GOP. Spoke gunman for the false narrative of White America under siege, they're not satisfied with. Spreading chaos and violence into our communities they want to abolish the suburbs altogether by ending single family homes zoning this forced rezoning would bring crime lawlessness and low quality apartments and now thriving suburban neighborhoods lie after lie after lie from the husband and wife rich lawyer militia from the trump campaign and from the Hague factory of Fox News when the writers come for your town. And they're coming. We'll biden and his team enough to stop them. And the answer is clearly no these are people are now crossing state lines clearly, and this is being organized using the Internet they will burn down your cities and tell you you did it. And if you don't accept that judgment, maybe they'll send them to your house the same race baiting law and order rhetoric whistled by Richard Nixon and Ronald. Reagan now literally weaponized. Let's just put aside lethal pandemic denial in paranoid Cunanan fantasies at least for a second and considered trump's warnings of the quote dark shadows and deep state moles controlling Joe. Biden. Those thugs clad in black on airplanes bound to destroy us. There are people that are on the streets. There are people that are controlling the streets. We had somebody getting plane from a certain city this weekend, an end, the plane it was almost completely loaded with with thugs wearing these dark uniforms, black uniforms with gear and this and that their. Plan whereas the. I'll tell you sometimes, but it's under investigation. They have scary year even have menacing lunch people coming over with bags of so big bags of and they laid on the ground the anarchist's take that they start throwing it at our cops that our police. and. If it hits you, that's worse than a breakfast. It's got force soup assaults on police. He says every one of whom deserve unwavering support even after the use of deadly force against so many black men and women in this greatest of nations excluding, of course, the anarchic tarts defend their actions against fake news. He says so quick to smear cops for letting their nerves get the best of luck they choke just like in a golf tournament they miss a three foot comparing it to golf because he of course, that's what I'm saying people. Chip I. DO think that there appears to be a phenomenon in the country where African Americans feel that they're treated when they're stopped by police week widely. As suspects before they're treated as citizens. I don't think that that necessarily reflect some. Deep, seated Racism in in police departments or in most police officers meanwhile, Bill Bar, the nation's keep law enforcer shrugs at the notion that all too frequent lethal force against black people signifies systemic racism. He also mischaracterizes details of Jacob Blake's arrest on sexual assault charges caught on video that left him with seven bullets in the back courtesy of Canossa policemen from the Jacob case, he was in the midst of committing a felony and he was armed. No though police later reported finding a knife in the car, Blake was surrounded by police walking slowly and unarmed when he was shot. which is where black lives matters comes from, which is why there are protests nationwide, which is why trump is trying to portray. Peaceful dissent as anarchy. Truth is often not black and white this week trump's lot is all were stirring up to very race conflict, his most violent supporters most covet. So. Is this just the latest so-called shining object. Or is it a line crossed of historic and irreparable peril? Who knows it's a fool's errand after four years of overlapping lies, provocations, illegalities, humanities. To declare any one moment a turning point. And yet. With a historic election only eight weeks away. How not to tremble at the realization of our worst fears? Of. A depraved presidents. Coming up when fixing our democracy is inseparable from fixing facebook. This is on the media. Childcare centers that were shut down during the early days of the pandemic have mostly been allowed to reopen. Childcare providers. All Ready Operating on razor then merges now dealing with a whole slew of new challenges. This isn't gonNA work. We're not gonNA have the staff. We're not GONNA have kids I'm ANA sale on the latest episode of Death Sex and money the impossible realities of child care. In America right now, what am I going to do I? Don't know listen wherever you get your podcasts. This is on the media I'm Brooke Gladstone and I'm Bob Garfield the armed rightwingers who have arrived in force at protests and Kenosha Portland Harrisburg PA Louisville Kentucky have been labeled Patriot militias as if that tells you everything you need to know. But the history of America's militia movement as it's been called shows that apart from guns. Komo. And extreme right-wing ideologies. What passes for a movement is really a grab bag of grievance. John Temple is a journalism professor at West, Virginia University and the author of up in arms how the Bundy family hijack public land's outfox the federal government and Dig Knighted America's Patriot movement John Welcome to Otm thanks for having me. Now I suppose if you asked modern right wing militiamen when their movement began, they would say it was during the revolutionary war when civilian minute men would be mobilized a moment's notice to fight the British but you believe that the political and ideological roots of the militia movement. Could be traced to the mid nineteen hundred? Yes there is. Symbolic from the Revolutionary War that they employ wearing tri cornered hats and waving the Gadsden flag the yellow flag with the Serpent Club on insists don't tread on me. But it really started coalescence nine, hundred and fifty with that era's version of the tea party in a sense the John Birch Society. and. Then as the civil rights movement occurred and there was more federal intervention in different issues, you had organization springing up like Posse Comitatus, which believed that county level government was the supreme authority. We should be making this decision at the local level and I remember rather breathless reports in Time magazine about militiamen in Michigan in Hayden Lake Idaho, and obviously got a lot of publicity yet very French in those days. But at the same time, this was going on there was this corresponding drop entrusted a federal government. Just to give you an example in nineteen, sixty, four, seventy, six per cent of Americans. Would say that always or most of the time they would trust the government to do what's right. Thousand. Ninety four that had dropped from seventy six percent to nineteen percent. So what was radical gradually became a fairly commonplace. Concept you know that didn't mean that everyone was picking up guns and go into the woods and joining paramilitary outfits, but it definitely became more of a mainstream 'cause. They were paramilitary wannabes but quite disparate. Until the nineties and one particular event. Can we discuss Ruby Ridge? Yes, it's been a lot of time with militia people to report the book that you mentioned up in arms. They talk about Randy Weaver like happened yesterday. Standoff between a man who is wanted by the FBI a large number two federal agents surrounding cabin for fugitive named Randy Weaver is holed up with his family. In Nineteen ninety-two US marshals went to this very rural mountaintop in Idaho to arrest a guy named randy weaver. Peels white separatist. He'd been arrested on gun charges and had appeared court and a shootout ensued that left both a US Marshall and weavers fourteen year old son dead. and An F. B. I. Sniper shot and killed Weaver's wife, and it just became this proof that the federal government was overreaching was gonNA come for you and kill your family. So it was the proto bloodbath, but it wasn't the biggest bloodbath. To rally the cause that would be Waco Waco. Yeah. A year. Later, the blistering Texas son investigators combed the smoldering remains of the branch Davidian compound more than eighty people are believed to have died in yesterday's fiery conclusion to the fifty one day siege twenty, four of them children. Branch Davidians was a cult that stood accused of illegal weapons. So, shootout four federal agents died in six members died. And then horribly the FBI. Launch tear gas attack to try to get them out of the compound. A fire breaks out and sweeps her all the buildings kills seventy five people many of the women and children. Just the disastrous situation, and this became just a big rallying cry for the patriotism and since then thousands of paramilitary groups have sprung up in common cause it's not a single move matt really it's a bunch of different movements. Some of them are fairly organized and some of them are. A couple of guys out woods situation they had different beliefs some were racist. Some were more concerned with gun rights. Some were more concerned with immigration in recent decades. The they realized that racism overt racism at least it's not going to take them into the mainstream, and if there's one thing that these folks want, it's to broaden their appeal they decided to stop using as much racial language and start. Focusing, on two issues that were more popular one being. That the federal government was overreaching and the other the federal government was looking to take away their guns and they decided that the most positive band that they could give themselves patriots. So that's what they call themselves. Let's briefly discuss Bundy. That's the subject of your scholarship. This was a western rancher who was an ongoing dispute with the Bureau of land management about the grazing, his cattle encroaching on federal lands. Federal government finally after trying to stop him in court. decided. To take more decisive action. Yes. They sent some cowboys out on this federal land. This land at Cliven Bundy did not own. This is twenty fourteen. They knew that the Bundy family might fight back. So they had more than one hundred agents of different federal agencies involved to protect them and Cliven Bundy who was not a militia member. PUT OUT AT KALETA arm saying they're coming from a cattle they're arresting my kids because that was happening as well and what had happened by this time it was different than Waco and Ruby Ridge was now we had social media networks. So this color arms went out and it just went crazy. Thousands traveled from all over the country to fight back. Demonstrators have rallied to support Bundy leading to an altercation with law enforcement officials on Wednesday, when one of Bundy sons was taste after kicking a police dog. Jim Laurie came from Montana to join the protesters. He says he and other militia members are not afraid to shoot if necessary when guns to protect ourselves from tyrannical government I turned into a real flash point. The thing that was unique about it was that now they knew how to gather and they knew how to get the word out about events like this you made reference to this earlier it has perplexed me for some years. Is this just a lark exercise with live AMMO? You know a Bunch of men playing paramilitary paramilitary because it makes them feel powerful or part of something bigger than themselves or these we all revolutionaries by and large That's a great question and it's a question that of course I can't answer definitively casino every every person as as their own individual motivations. But there is an element of fun involved in this. It may not sound fun to your May I think these are oftentimes people who might have health problems or they may have money problems they may have. been unsuccessful in their personal lives, and this is a way to get together with other people that there are others who truly believe in what they're doing. That were under attack and the federal government is overreaching. How could it be at the moment? They have in the Oval Office the very man least propounds their nonsense that they're taking to the streets. There's some cognitive dissonance there. Oh, absolutely. I spent a Lotta time run around in cars with these folks and go into various events, and it's really really interesting because like you said, if the one thing that they did have in common for decades was that they believed the federal government was kind of the enemy. Suddenly, the person at the top of the federal government is espousing many of the same ideas as they are what I saw was a split, a majority of people Kinda were like great. We loved Donald. Trump. But there's this element of Purus who are like you know what if you are in charge of federal government? You are the by default and then there's another thinner slice and I would include Ammon Bundy cliven. Bundy. Son Who believe that Donald Trump is an authoritarian. Ammon Bundy posted on Instagram live about this very thing. Well, here's what it sounded like. You must have a problem in your mind. If you think the somehow the black lives matter is more dangerous than the police. If you think an teeth is the one to take your freedom, you must be hypnotized by conservative talk show host F on the police is the correct thing to do. So he has gone from being the hero of the movement in say two, thousand sixteen when he was occupying the Moore. Wildlife Reservation in Oregon to being sort of sideline. So scattered its contradictory. It's often paranoid and fantastic. But it's out on the streets now with loaded rifles. I how dangerous is this moment? What do you think is its trajectory and what if anything can we do about it? I will never try to predict the future of what's going to happen next with this movement. You know these folks are always looking for 'cause they're looking for a Bundy ranch they're looking for a Ruby Ridge Waco where these all the times, optics, optics, optics, optics how does this look on camera? And right now they have a seventeen year old kid cal Rittenhouse who was in their view defending himself. That will appeal they believe to a broader slice of the country and appeals to Donald. Trump. And the other thing is this is going to drag on for a while there's going to be court cases they're going to be opportunities for rallies and events, protests, and. The optics from their plan you are good and then it's taking place in this time where no matter what side you're on. Even if you're in the middle, you know you're feeling this heightened sensitivity than we've got someone stoking. Fear Paranoia and I mean every day it gets a little nuttier. What's coming on trump's smeltzer it's scary set of circumstances. Thank you John, I'm very grateful. Thank you for having me. John. Temple is a professor of journalism at West Virginia University and the author of up in arms had the Bundy family hijack public lands at Fox to the federal government and ignited America's Patriot movement. On August twenty fifth organizers affiliated with a group called the Kenosha guard shared a call to action on where else. facebook. Quote any patriots willing to take up arms and defend our city tonight from the evil thugs. We know now that the taking up arms and question led to the murder of protesters at the hand of a seventeen year old vigilante who should never have gone to Kenosha. The scrutiny facebook has undergone in the aftermath of the kenosha shooting is well trod territory for the platform just this Thursday the company released a suite of new regulations aimed at securing the legitimacy of November's presidential election. In this plan that's rolling out today facebook promises to flag or in some cases remove misinformation about voting related to the corona virus. It will also limit political ads in the week before the election a week, the new regulations amount to fixing a nuclear reactor with duct tape and some spit facebook which runs on money generating algorithms is hazardous to our collective health says. It's former VP for user growth tomato PAALEA Petia because quote short term dopamine driven feedback loops that we have created our destroying how society works Julia Keri. Wong is a senior technology reporter for the Guardian showed says that the violence that spilled into the streets of Kenosha had its origins on facebook of course, it did that Kenosha guard was almost exclusively a creation of facebook itself. The militia leader quote unquote is a man named Kevin Matheson. He basically set up a facebook page during the George Flake protests but the page didn't really go anywhere up until the police shooting of Jacob Blake. That's when this facebook event kind of snowballed was the use of facebook by the Kenosha guard typical of these vigilante groups you know not entirely short, but I think it might have been one week before this. All happened facebook announced that they were going to crack down on US based militias that were using sight to organize. They said that they were taking down nine hundred eighty groups five, hundred twenty pages starting with the militias that had used language that suggested that they were encouraging violence. But. Facebook did have some basic rules in place for a while banning organizations from the site that were explicitly violent like terrorist organizations criminal cartels what were the contours of those regulations? If you have a violent mission and if you're not state based, you're not allowed to use. It's platform in other countries. FACEBOOK has also banned armed ethnic organizations that might be recognized under international law. FACEBOOK, said because they're not state actors, they should not be allowed on the platform but these rules are clearly problematic. If you look at history, the African National Congress would not have been allowed to use facebook's tools to connect people that we're fighting against the impressive machine. If you look at Rwanda they would have prevented the Tuzi rebels from using their tools while allowing the Hutu genocidaires because one was in state power and one was non there's been. A bit of a double standard. I'm sure that facebook is full of double standards but. In the US we have this thriving subculture of militia movements. For a long time allowed to remain on facebook three percenters, the oath keepers, these non-governmental groups that are nevertheless armed and whose rhetoric at least if not their actions for the most part includes a lot of discussion of potential violence. So these are very difficult roles to enforce their dairy difficult calls to make. Yeah. Isn't that the problem that when the catch all category? Facebook, is quote dangerous? Organization who gets to determine what that is it's up concerned. You know here in the United States, we have a lot of criticism about how facebook is making these decisions how facebook is drawing its lines. Ninety percent of these books users aren't even here in the US where we have the most attention from facebook staff. So when we're calling out facebook for making a mistake in Kenosha Wisconsin. Has to recognize that facebook put more effort into getting that decision. Right. Then they possibly could have been any other country around the world because this is where they have the vast majority of their policy people paying attention to the potential backlash and even still there often making the wrong pulp and recently facebook has been trying to figure out how to tamp down on groups that aren't explicitly violent but could provoke violence what prompted them to go further. It was a lot of pressure over how they were going to start dealing with Cunanan Cunanan has been exploding on facebook. It's consistently been tied to vigilante violent acts, and at the same time, you can't look at Cunanan and say that it falls into the same category as Isis or Al Qaeda. So they were trying to straddle the line between the aspects of Cunanan, which are political speech. And the parts that are deeply committed to a false interpretation of reality to the extent that they might be interested in inciting violence. The fact that Cunanan's a pro-trump movement and that we've seen facebook. Show very little appetite for challenging the right and the US. Probably plays into their decision to chart a middle ground here norris facebook banning the groups that it flags as malicious. It's more like you know they're on notice they've created this separate category for groups like you and on militias and MT I. The extent that Antifa facebook which I think is pretty absurd. They basically said that all of these groups are notice. So a normal group like a neighborhood soccer team or a PTA that uses facebook if one person says something violent in that group because they lost their temper. Soccer game goes really bad or something really outrageous happened at the meeting. The group itself will not be banned. It's possible that facebook would remove that single post and might put the user that said it in like a twenty four hour time out or something but four Cunanan groups, and for militia groups it's one strike and you're out you can set up the Kenosha guard and you can say this is a militia were all about safety but the moment that you start talking about encouraging violence that's when you're done after the violence, you saw on facebook instagram which it owns. depictions of the alleged shooter as a as a saint as a martyr. As soon as this shooting happened facebook's policy team designated this shooting as a mass shooting it means nobody is allowed to represent an positive manner, the shooter or the shooting itself because we've seen mass killers lionized by extremist groups. And what was really just deeply disturbing was there was a lot of groups and pages that were hosting means of this alleged shooter photos of him with his gun. There were tagline saying that he was a hero one of the ones that just really upset me was a mean that showed a photo of him in said Khamis down. There were also three separate fundraisers for the alleged shooter. Those fundraisers which Shar technically banned by facebook garnered more than twenty thousand shares over a couple of days. FACEBOOK had very little to save for itself. It took them. More than twenty four hours to get back to my questions and then took down the things that I had specifically linked them to learn. There's the problem facebook's removal of the posts reinforcing the you're censoring my right to say things that whole deal right exactly. But how do you thread that needle? It's very, very complicated one right because within the first day of shooting taking place, we saw Tucker Carlson on Fox News, offering a justification Choi really surprised that looting and arson accelerated to murder. How shocked are we? That seventeen year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would that set the tone for the way that the right was going to justify this. I don't envy facebook having to deal with that situation when you have ruling party offering up a justification for an extrajudicial killing in a video that was released from an internal meeting at facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg responded to criticism over the company's impotence in the face of militia organizing the contractors reviewers who the initial complaints were were funneled to pick this up and on on. Second Review doing it more sensitively the team that was that's responsible for dangerous organizations recognize that this filer of the policies and we took a down. On. The contractors which was interesting. The. Contractors being people that don't actually work for facebook don't actually get any of the perks of working for facebook but are kind of tasked with dealing with. The worst detritus of the Internet, every day at low wages often in other countries. Yeah. You recently spoke to Ellen Pao the former CEO of read it. She said basically that you subcontract things, you don't care about and you don't care about things. You Subcontract Allen Powell was the CEO of a red, trying really hard to clean up that platform and deal with violence harassment and hate on the Internet. She said that she wishes that she had brought content moderation in house and I was just really struck by that. You know nobody in Silicon Valley none of these platforms ever talk about bringing content moderation in house. It's this huge workforce that is kept off. The books are often different cities in different countries and they're not treated as being as important to the company's mission as the software engineers and the product managers and the ad sales people and being so remote, they can just follow the instructions they can't make any judgments because a lot of times they just don't know the context. If facebook in sourced editorial I, think that that would help. It's the largest publisher in the history of the world and they have entirely outsourced editorial to people that don't work for the company. The content is generated by users and the content is edited by subcontracted low wage workers often in other countries, and then on the other side of it, there's just the. Sheer. Size and scale facebook is in many ways simply too big to be effectively moderated but it does seem that the employees had facebook are starting to get angry at the beginning of the summer. There was a digital walkout over facebook's decision to say trump's quote when the looting starts the shooting starts was okay. This was a company that was used to obedience. Among all the different silicon valley tech companies facebook has a reputation of the staff being kind of true believers that there are no problems that more facebook won't fix what we've seen this summer. Is that facebook employees are increasingly coming out and saying the social effects of this company are bad and frightening and something needs to be done and it's not surprising I mean most of their employees live in the United States and are now getting firsthand experience. Of the kind of dilatoriness impacts that facebook can have on a democracy that have been seen in the Philippine then Poland and India, how did you feel when you saw the Kevin Roose piece in the New York Times about how extreme right wing influences are dominating the political conversation on facebook and we're talking about entirely alternate universes it's long been the case that we can avoid inconvenient facts but facebook seems to have cemented these information pathways to the point where they're like luge slides, you never get off the glide path you're on right I mean I, thought that that he's by. Kevin was really important. I hope that more people especially more journalists will take his advice and start spending more time trying to use facebook the way that people that you don't know use facebook there's a tendency in the journalists discoursed to say twitter isn't real life. But since the pandemic we've all been living our lives online, the facebook world that people exist in Israel to them, and if you don't really know what this right wing facebook ecosystem feels like you need to kind of take the time and get to know it because it's a different world. So what would you advise? Wants to engage with people outside of their lose to do. What would you advise them to bring to those conversations? The parts of psychology that facebook taps into the structure of its algorithms is particularly affected for outrage for anger for things that are emotive reactive. But when it comes to the much harder work facing this entire country trying to build social ties across political disagreements across social difference. I honestly don't think that facebook is capable of doing that. Probably you are going to be better off. Engaging in civic life in your community and trying to help rebuild that outside of the structures that facebook has created those structures at the moment are simply not suited for positive. Social. Outcomes Julius. Thank you very much. Thank you so much Julia Carey. is a technology reporter for the Guardian. COMING UP A wrong headline and constitutes news. This is on the medium. This is on the media I'm Brooklyn Stone and I'm Bob. Garfield. Thousands assembled in Civic Center Park no-show. Wisconsin this past Saturday to decry the police brutality that put Jacob Blake in a hospital bed and locked him their. Parents. Not impaction. FEELS LIKE Look. Joe Babe. Relies from the waist down. Circle. Where was my son goal? Already. Blake's father Jacob. Lake senior set the tone. Of the city understand. We care it up. We have nothing. If you. Will have nowhere to go. I don't want. The homeless. I don't want to be stolen. Wants to not to be able to buy your sons, daughters, grandbabies the food in that they need. Doom. Favor. is asked. Stop. Stopping. Other. Speakers included Wisconsin Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes US Congressperson gwen Moore and a speaker whose name we still don't know who strayed way off message. Those words of rage and despair played into the very race war fears being stoked by trump the GOP end the right wing media sphere. So what does the daily Connotion News put in its headline? That outlines expression of anguish the inflammatory threat. Daniel Thomson was digital editor at the Kenosha News until Saturday when he resigned over his objections to the headline. Daniel Welcome on the media. Thank you for having me. So. You texted the boss executive editor, Bob Highs, and said what? I screen shot the headline I circled in red and I sent him text saying I want to know exactly who wrote this headline I signed a few more talks. The last one I think stating that I don't know if I can associated with a company after this and I need to call them down but I want you to know immediately and you can tell by my wording that I didn't believe that Bob was the one who wrote the headline. And heiss replied now did he say? Daniel, it seems newsworthy to me, but it's the Kenosha news is only black editor. Perhaps, you are sensitive to something that I just don't see. Let me mull this over and think about the context and the likely effect of this decision I is that what he said That is not what he said. His reply was that I should guess calm down he said that it was a direct quote from the event and that it was a public threat. And therefore kind of saying about it was a valid thing to put in the headline. That led to me saying that I quit. Now. I should observe that the decision to highlight one moment. Out of a long day of speeches is not in and of itself bad journalism. No we are trained to focus on the most newsworthy detail even if it's only an instant but if the instant that you choose to journalistically isolate mischaracterizes the news event and inflates an outlier moment especially in this environment stokes fears. You believe what I believe that you're being responsible. And it's been in my experience, even covering protests that the way that people have thought about approaching stories in the past. Does Not do justice to stories revolving around issues such as justice for Jacob Blake George Floyd Brown Taylor police accountability and things like that because in these situations are very tense very volatile it's almost more important to setup the context completely in which they're taking place before you start throwing out these big quotes. In the past when you flag issues of insensitivity or Nuance Heis and other editors listened and as I understand, it often accommodated your concerns. Yes. That's almost what makes it more surprising is because we did have a relationship where I was very vocal about things that I didn't agree with we could talk about these things and in the end maybe they saw my point maybe they didn't but more often than not if my point was valid things were adjusted. We invited Bob Heist to speak to us he declined. But he did give us a quote which has our staff has been working tirelessly to cover the protests and civil unrest in Kenosha. The community depends on us and we are working under challenging circumstances. We are telling all sides of the story with photos, videos and stories, and we will continue to do so. Now, you want an apology from the paper to the Blake family at a minimum. That isn't one is it? No but I do understand here's the thing. The KENOSHA office is taking a lot of heat right now for something that was not the fault of anybody in that. Office. Besides you know my interaction with Bob. I've said, I would not name the person publicly, but I'm comfortable saying that person did not work in that Kenosha. In ways that makes me even more angry that. Lee Enterprises and publisher mark. Lewis who oversees Wisconsin Valley Media Group, which is Connotion News Journal Times and Lake Geneva Regional News. He hasn't said anything either and I'm sure he knows exactly who did it too but he's leading Bob and the KENOSHA staff take all the heat. This summer the New York Times media columnist. Ben Smith wrote about. The generation of black journalists who covered Ferguson in two thousand fourteen. He connected their experiences then to changes that we're seeing in American newsrooms. Now, as they quote, try to find common ground between a tradition that aims to persuade the widest possible audience that it's reporting is neutral and journalists who believe that fairness on issues from race to Donald Trump require clear moral calls. Was the decision to stand by. This headline. Immoral? Wraps. I still wonder in the back of my head how we got here. But I've thought there are a few options for one. There is the possibility that it is a boss who has been working tirelessly and working many hours and doing so because he's short staffed because of cuts by the parent company over the years. Who is lacking sleep and probably angry and then he has an employee. Basically address him in a tone of complete insubordination. Was it a pride thing. Was it anger? Was it a combination of just what he was dealing with? Probably. Was it a moral stand? Maybe. And then there's the third option of. Bob Wasn't the one who did it, but he wasn't also GonNa throw the person that did do it under the bus. So as much as people. WanNa. Give me credit I think Bob should also get credit to. Because even though this wasn't his fault, he hasn't put the blame on anybody else. Well you're clearly fair-minded and began that which I expected to tell you the truth under these circumstances. Which makes me wonder going back to that Ben Smith column whether you agreed at the time or embrace the notion that the rules of journalism. which cleaved so heavily on being disinterested observers do have to change under the circumstances of social and. Economic Injustice. Are you radicalized by this experience? It radicalized me at first if you see my tweet and everything my sudden angry almost dictator like call for this person to publicly apologize or I'm going to name them. Yes. I had a radical moment. I was angry. And I'm thankful that people actually responded to that sweet and questioned me on it. And as the day went on as my anger dissipated I starting to see their point it would be almost the most hilarious example of hypocrisy. To rail against my former employer one day for their irresponsible acts that put the black community or even the local community in general endanger. When I'm threatening to do the same thing but not to a community to a specific person and a specific family. In that moment I realized that I had become the equal opposite reaction of what they did. So yes. There were moments where I kind of lost control, but now back in control. Back to more objective perspective of things. And I'm happy to be. One last thing Daniel. When this happened during this momentous. Episode and the struggle for social justice and Against Racism and police brutality. You were the only black fulltime member of that newsroom. The story isn't over in fact, would sing other coverage is beginning to peel back. Even, more of the layers of social injustice in Kenosha in particular but. Now. There's Zero full-time black employees of the Kenosha News. Do you think in the end this episode will. Help the proper telling of a complex and Heartbreaking story or have you walked out with the only sort of institutional knowledge required. To keep that coverage. Honest. No No. Not at all. The Commotion Staff Is Incredible Deneen Smith Joe Roselle have their pointer Liz Snyder Dan Trussell Terry, Flora's if I hadn't mentioned her already James Lawson Shankar J. Sick these reporters and photographer have worked so hard to cover the community as much as people like to think that I've been speaking up in the newsroom. They're the ones who spoke up to me when I'm wrong. So do I think that the lack of diversity is troubling? But I also know one hundred percents that there are good unbiased reporters and that newsroom because I've worked with them side by side for years I don't worry about. Kenosha. With that reporting staff there. I worry about what management does to what that reporting staff turns in. In. The aftermath of all of this, you of announced that you're going to stay in town, you're going to publish online independent news site and you had a go mayor some other online tool for generating some capital and the community responded in droves and honestly. I don't even know how to react to how nice everybody's been. Because for a lot of my life and especially the past few years suffering through my own kind of verbal abuse as a journalist covering certain things I was feeling very cynical and in fact, made many social media posts about losing my faith in humanity. And all of this, it's been completely restored. It's funny. The KENOSHA news and leaving that ends a chapter of my life but everything that's happened afterwards puts me in a much better position for the next chapter both as a person and as a professional. Dude you are. So Wisconsin Nice I do not know how to process. Your equanimity is just it's hard for. My. I worked at a small town in Nebraska. I didn't know in small towns anywhere that everybody just waves at you when they drive by. Took me days to adjust to that level of Nice 'cause I. was like wait. Do I. Know That Person? Well I feel like you're waving into. Town. Yeah, thank you to. Daimiel Thomson is now an independent digital journalist in Kenosha Wisconsin. That's it for this show on the media is produced by Alana Casanova Burgess Mike Low Interplay of Fedor John, Hanrahan Sandra Ellen and elway's blonde do and our show was edited. I broke our technical director is Jennifer Munson Engineer. This week was josh on catchy Rogers is our executive producer on the media is a production of WNYC studios I'm Brooke. Gladstone and Bob Garfield.
Tuesday- Times Up: The New Normal The Globalist Cabal Promised Us Is Here!
"Why are we already into streets, pitchforks and torches and ar fifteen drawn to manding into this. We don't want you to kind of slowly back away. We want you to stop now. You're a little reign of terror. Your party is over. No one is sick outside of normal sickness levels, but the way I. Put a graph up today for Cova. Karen's on twitter. Did you know that in the counter year? That was nineteen ninety nine. If you take the depth spike spike in deaths. From Cova from allegedly from covid nineteen and the United Kingdom and just shift it back two months. And put it in line with previous years where there are always. Influenza and pneumonia related deaths during which call flu season right if you take the roller coaster spike and move it back two months. What are you get? The Corona hoax this year, twenty twenty five fewer people died this year during the spike. In cases, flu annual flu cases then died in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety nine. Maintained nine more people died in the UK and Nineteen, Ninety, eight, nineteen, ninety nine and died this year. During a spike in the cases. These are ear refutable facts. This is what the science says. If. We don't tell these people know now. than as I told Cooper and his letter to the bar that you've set. For when the mass can be removed, basically says when there's no. Positive tests for the corona hoax. That's not gonNA happen. We're always going to have people testing positive for the antibodies. They must. Look and this is why we wanted to be released the the science and the medical advisory. They're being given behind. This is not like. This is some top secret military action here this. When you're dealing with a matter of public health. Why shouldn't the public know? Everything at the political class knows Mike. Cooper's not a physician. Bell Edwards Napoleon Bell Edwards. The third is not a physician. Drank wine and all the recipes clown governors governor dim whitmer. They're not physicians. They're not even glorified parents for heaven's sake. So why do we have to do what they say? Well folks we've got a double edged sword in our hand. We have a political class. That hates our guts. And wants to rule over us. Allah one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, four I love, Bolshevik revolutions. And what have you here? And then we have a neighborly class or community class that is. A product of the public school. The government school education system for the last fifty years can't think their way out of wet paper bag have no critical thinking skills whatsoever and completely sell out and believe everything their governments on the because government you acting in our best interest. I have good friends that are riding and him, it King Dude I got friends that it doesn't matter what fact I throw in front of them. It doesn't matter what statistic it doesn't even matter. What's going on in their own town in their own family in their own homes. They simply will not leave the hoax. They're all in. It doesn't matter what the facts say. They're going down with the corona hoax ship. Now I have to ask the question. How is it that someone that a man or woman is brought to this level? What made her a brainwashing? Is it that has allowed this well? We're going to talk about this of course of the program today. Social, media. Social Media? Social Media, today's pilot prep is a story from the from the Guardian USA version of the Guardian Dot. Co? Dot, UK. Great story in there about how pride book is has been, more successful, and censoring an directing the the directing and guiding and basically writing the narrative, the propaganda narrative than any government in history ever has no government has ever been able to do to the level of exert the level of control over what people can read. What then what they can think what they will think about it that pride book has been able to do. We'll talk about this church. Show here on the crusade channel always on always online at Crusade Channel Dot Com. A couple of things here. You're going to build into this. Please go to my website and read my letter. My parish president. I'm not mean not nasty. I, don't call him any names. I addressed him as honorable I. I say at the end, you can be a hero here like Kristi. nome and South Dakota. He's not going to do any what I asked him to do. I doubt he's even going to respond to me. But at least I sent a letter and I sent it to both. The two major newspapers. To all three of the television stations and I sent it to Jeff Kerr wear. It was a radio host here in New Orleans. We'll see if anyone else picks up on it. I hope that if you're listening and you live with me here in this Paris a a couple of hundred of you do take my letter to sign your name. Do it or just cut and paste the parts that you like Roger out or read your own letter I don't really care. What the time to demand action is now. And I think all of these letters that we send every one of these clowns. Is Alleging that they govern us. member. What is Jefferson saying the declaration of Independence? That whenever any government becomes injurious of these ends of people have an indubitable indefeasible. This George. Mason thrown in there. indefeasible rights or perform alter or abolish it throwing off. Such governments and instituting new governments in Lan And Lay in their foundations upon which principles they think. May. Be May may may may may best governor them I paraphrasing. The the time to take. This is over time to start. Acting against these clowns is now well. Some of US get thrown in jail probably. Will some of US lose. What little we've got left probably. Isn't that what the cost of war always is? Is there a war on. Is this enact against the truth it is. Now to try and bring all this in perspective Ms. O'connor, how much of this? We have to listen to all nine minutes and forty six seconds of this to get the flavor. To put all this. Much of this into perspective about well, my come on, we came. If we don't. We don't have the power to stand up to these people. I WANNA play this clip from this gentleman, Max. Alvarez now Mr Alvarez is going to talk about what he saw in Cuba as a thirteen year old boy. This applies to what we're seeing now with our government. If you're a Roman Catholic if you're a practicing Catholic, this applies to what we're seeing with our bishops, and with people running around claiming to be Catholics like. A. Father James Martin. J. And others out there in plain and open apostasy. Against the faith plane an open blasphemy. Why is it important to call these people out? Why? Why must it be known? that. That guy's not the real deal here. Let Mr Alvarez. Explain this to you. Listen to this. Look at the people in this table. Our backgrounds! Just thing that in nineteen, sixty one. Third Year old. Myself and my way to Spain I wasn't even coming here. Arriving this great country. Almost sixty years later. I'm sitting next to the president of the United States. Talking about the American dream. The only country in the world. No other country in the world. You can start a business from the trunk of your car. We know very few years. We've work. Made. An older core values that we learn from these very. Culture of ours. We can become. Very important. To Our Future. We become those people who make. The next generation better than the one before. This is the only country. Why do you think you had to close the borders? Because, everybody in the world was to come over here. Nobody's ever forced to Goma here. We come over here. Mike case. Because my parents chose. That it would not be indoctrinated. By the communist country by the Totalitarian Country But the totalitarian regime. They don't educate children. Absolutely not. And these. Something that we need to understand. What is happening in our backyard today? I experienced. A sudden eleven year old. I remember evenly. All the promises. A guy named got. This is where real listen to on how! Ninety nine percent of the people swallow the pill. Many years later of today read. Somebody named Sola, Linski realize. That all those people were nothing but useful idiots. I. Remember Costra while in the mountains being interviewed on, ask if there was a communist. He went crazy I. Dare you, he says. Got, Copper Stoical Romano. Roman Catholic educated by the jesuits he. Hugged air you. Larry there have increased. The mountains used to have reason that remember I was marriage brothers. Christopher Columbus here for those you don't. Remember the brothers marriage builders used to say young kids to the mountains because it was the second coming of. Our Lord. He was GonNa Save Cuba. I remember how he brahmins. To the farmers. hedos. Own, the land. I REMEMBER All the promises that we here today. About free education, free healthcare. Three, line My God. No freedom. But he never said that. He was in power. Got Rid of all the police. All the military. Being there for the last sixty years I'm counting. He destroyed each and everyone who helped him. Courage. Everybody. What do I know that? Because I happen to come to this country. We the very last nine. cloistered nuns from Santa Clara okay. You got to hear A. Mid Is. O'connor will put us up in the chat room. It's easy to find if you just search for Max Alvarez. Everyone should watch this. Mass Moni because this is a home run belt down to the part, but it. It won't do any good if you don't listen to the guy and then act upon it.
How Hydroxychloroquine Became A Thing
"And I say it. What do you say to get? What do you have to lose on Saturday? President trump again touted the use of hydroxy chloroquine an anti-malaria drug as a potential treatment for covert nineteen the USC announced has stockpiled. Twenty nine million doses. Though the basis for using the drug to treat the disease is entirely anecdotal. Some doctors are already using it in hospitals around the country. Some report that it might be useful in the early stages of covert nineteen. But we really don't know. And what do we have to lose? There are side effects. Experts warn and it is potentially fatal for patients with heart problems or who are on certain antidepressants. And then there's the side effect of a shortage for people who are actually prescribed drugs clerk in four illnesses like lupus and rheumatoid arthritis yet. We have to be careful Laura that we don't assume something works based on an anecdotal report. That's not controlled and I refers specifically to hydroxy chloroquine. Dr Anthony FAUCI Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases has been urging caution in White House briefings and in media interviews such as this one with Fox's Laura Ingram. There's a lot of buzz out there on the Internet on the social media about that. Oh there are many eccentric way. Well those studies. Some of them were not control. So why the intense media interest in hydroxy chloroquine even before the president's started talking it up reporting this week for the Guardian Julia. Carrie Wong traced the not so winding path from Fox News. The trump's ears. It's become kind of a mean within the news cycle and among the general populace in a way that is pretty substantially disconnected to the degree to which it's actually important within the medical response hydroxy chloroquine which I think. Is You know. It's a great malaria. Drug a doctor ause yesterday the President United States was talking about hydroxy chloroquine which you've Detail for a number of weeks. Also tonight we have big big developments on a hydroxy corkwood. It is one of several treatments that might end up being useful but the narrative around Roxy Clerk has far exceeded any actual science supporting whether or not it will end up being important to combating this virus and treating people a narrative fed again and again and again by Donald trump himself on march nineteenth. He started specifically calling this drug out by name in his daily press. Briefings and talking it up as something that might be a cure. Now this is kind of like trying to locate patient zero but the media part of their seems to have begun in March. Eighteenth episode of Tucker Carlson's show on Fox so the president has the authority authorize the use of hydroxy chloroquine against corona virus immediately featuring some guy named Gregory Gano Roxie chloroquine has been on the market for over fifty years with a quality safety profile. And I'm here to report that as of this morning. About five o'clock this morning a well-controlled. Peer reviewed study carried out by the most eminent infectious disease specialists in the world did he a raoult. Md Ph d. out of the south of France in which he enrolled forty patients again a well controlled. Peer reviewed study showed a one hundred percent Joe. Wright jury against Corona virus he also claimed an affiliation with Stanford Medical School which tellingly was non existent Not to mention the preposterous claim of a hundred percent cure rate. Now there was a study of sorts he was referring to and it was published. But we'll tell me about the but this study was published in a respectable journal. It was peer reviewed the Journal of the International Society of Anti Microbial Chemotherapy. Right you know. There's been a lot of concern about P- reprints and studies that get out into the public before their peer reviewed but this actually made it through peer review but it was nevertheless a fairly flawed study. The Professional Association that publishes the Journal has now issued a formal statement of concern about the method. What were the obvious red flags in the construction of this study such that it was so there's the gold standard for how you want a study to be setup that's called a double blind randomized controlled trial. This basically means that you don't want either the doctor or the patient to know whether or not they got the drug or they got the placebo so that takes out bias that you might have. Doctors treating people differently based on whether or not they're part of the treatment group or the control group you want to be randomized which means that you don't get to pick and say well everybody. That looks really healthy. Goes into the treatment group and everybody that looks a little bit. Sicker goes into the control group and you want it to be controlled which means that the two groups are fairly equivalent. They're made up of people from the same population. You don't have all sorts of confounding factors. None of those basic standards were met here. It was open label which means that they knew who got each group. It was not randomized. They actually drew from totally different populations. All of the patients that got the drug were at one hospital in Marseille. The patients who did not get the drug who are called a control group even though this is not really considered a strong actual control came from other area hospitals. And we're just kind of chosen to be the control but even more importantly than those kind of design flaws. There's a lot of concern about the things that they chose to look at. This was a study that was based on how quickly the patients clear the virus from their system. They did not judge the patients based on their clinical outcome. Which is did they get better or not. There were four people in the group that got hydroxy Clarkin who actually did not get better. One of them died and three of them were transferred to the ICU which is pretty poor clinical outcome. They said that the patients who were transferred to the ICU. And the patient who died we're simply excluded from the study because it was not possible to continue to take their NASAL SWABS. And so that is a really significant. Flaw that fundamentally creates a misrepresentation of what the outcome of this treatment has been we in the global public were not primarily concerned with whether or not people clear viral load from their nasal passages were primarily concerned with whether or not they get better so when. Anthony Fauci says we need to do rigorous scientific testing. You don't have that information. It's understandable. Why people may want to take something anyway. Even with the slightest hint of it being affected he is speaking about precisely the randomized. Double Blind experimented that you described with factly any way you look at the This study is not that yes. And those trials are ongoing. The World Health Organization is running this large international clinical trial with four different treatments. That they're looking at and hydroxy. Clarkin is one of the four because there is a plausible theory that hydroxy clerk can could have a positive impact in the fight against this virus. It's just a known whether or not that is the case. There is a piece in the Wall Street Journal. Op Ed by doctors in Kansas promoting the use of hydrochloric when you got in touch with them to ask them what's up. What did they say this was signed by two doctors? One is the director of the Division of infectious disease at the University of Kansas Medical Centers. This op-ed states that researchers in France found that of the patients that they treated one hundred percent of them were cured by day six of the treatment but I reached out to both at the authors to say that this very seriously misrepresents the results of the study and I asked if they wanted to correct that Dr Hint Thorn the Infectious Disease. Doctor did respond to me. He said that my analysis of the front study was correct. That what the study actually told was that the treatment regimen of hydroxy chloroquine and AS Roma might merit further evaluation. He also gave the same kind of general justification for using the drug in his practice. That other people have used which is that. There is no proven treatment. So we're trying this and when I asked him whether he wanted to clarify the OP. Ed which is still existing under the very impressive auspices up the Wall Street Journal to clarify that. He did not respond the other author. Dr Jeff Collier. Who is the former governor of Kansas and a plastic surgeon? Did Not respond to my questions. No we heard in the tape that we played earlier. This Guy Regar- no speaking directly to the president's authority to bypass certain regulatory hurdles. He has more red tape at the FDA than any other president in history. Do you have a sense of this lawyer? How did he become Donald? Trump's drug whisper. I have not been able to establish exactly how it was that he got hooked up with Fox News. The New York Times has reported that there were also other people involved in influencing donald trump around hydroxy chloroquine and talking to him about it including it seems Larry Ellison and and Rudy Giuliani Larry Olson the founder of Oracle rate regardless. I mean he's interesting because he hooked up with a bitcoin investor who has an md but does not appear to practice and they seem to have gotten in touch with the French researchers in kind of the lead investigator with this French team Diego and he did a very effective job of getting the Silicon Valley influencers circuit interested. They put together this Google document. That looked like it was a scientific paper. It was not in any way a scientific paper. It was just kind of a hodgepodge of aggregated links to other studies. But you know had the veneer of authenticity about it and they successfully got that circulating on social media and within Silicon Valley circles up until the point that it was actually shared by Elon. Musk now suddenly. Mainstream outlets are covering the struggle. Because they're saying well Elon. Musk is talking about. According to media matters the liberal media watchdog group Fox on its various shows raised hydroxy chloroquine hundred nine times over three days. I went to draw on Al Pacino in Glengarry Glen Ross. What was their shot? I mean I get it when they talked about voter fraud and Russian hoax but a malaria drug. What was in it for them? I decided to kind of reach out and try to speak to historians of medicine to try to get a bit more of an understanding of. What was the attraction of this miracle? Drug? There's been a lot of speculation that this is motivated by financial concerns. That someone's going to make a lot of money off of Hydroxy Clarkin you know. I don't have strong evidence either way but I don't believe that that is the case this drug off patent it can be manufactured as generic and there can be large amounts of competition on that. And so you don't generally make a lot of money off of generic drugs but I do think that when you have a situation with the right wing partisan media where you know there's been blatant mismanagement of a public health disaster. This is an opportunity to give people hope to have to say if chloroquine or hydroxy chloroquine works Or any of the other things that they're looking at that are not quite as far out but if they work Your numbers are going to come down very rapidly. So we'll see what happens but there's a real chance that they might. They might work. But it's also an opportunity to distract attention from other issues and also to give people an enemy because by creating a scenario where trump can say. I want to give you this drug. This drug will cure everything it's just that the FDA and the scientists and all of these people that don't just go with their gut and listen to what I'm saying. They're the ones that are trying to prevent you from getting this drug. Why not just let the science speak for itself? Why are you promoting this drug? I'm just commoners Shipley. What I'm trying to tweet. Jay Wright started talking about them to try it and it may work. It may not work but it doesn't work it's lost by doing nothing because we know long term. I WANNA save lives and I don't want to be in a lab for the next year and a half as people dying all over the place. It is a very effective way to change the narrative and redirect anger that might be directed at the failures of the federal response to this pandemic. Which is Hell Anthony Fouled? She could find himself facing accusations from the right wing does fear that he is just an agent of the deep state who is willing to spout Mumbo jumbo about science attempting to embarrass the President. While people are dying. I mean there are portions of the American body politics that are very opposed to the FDA that want loosening restrictions. They want it to be much easier to bring drugs to market. I mean there are strong kind of financial motives for certain people to try to lower the standard by which the FDA allows you to sell a drug. You also have a real and persistent anti vaccine movement in this country and around the world and that movement has a very much attached itself to a hydroxy chloroquine. You know it fits into a narrative of saying. They don't want to give us this drug. That will work instead. They want to force us to take a vaccine. That we believe will harm us even though the vaccine doesn't even exist yet and so it fits neatly into that distrust and one of the struggles that you have with a story like hydroxy chloroquine and the way that this narrative has kind of gotten so out of control is that there is no simple story on the other side. There's nothing that is satisfying or that gives people narrative coherence around the idea that a drug exists. It might work. It might not. We just have to wait. I mean that is not a reassuring message at a time when people are seeing body counts in the thousands and there is just intense fear and uncertainty around the countries so on the one hand. Yes there are these niche groups that have glommed onto hydroxy chloroquine and melted into what was already kind of a very particular World View. But you know. It is natural fairly understandable that for large numbers of people that are not conspiracy theorists when they hear the president of the country. Say that a drug should work that they will believe him. Hey you get mail which must be a big thrill for you because who doesn't like recognition. When is it said I have gotten a big response to this story since it was published? And I've actually gotten a lot of very thoughtful emails from people around the world who are just interested in the science. Somebody in France reached out and asked if they could translate it because since the study came out of a pretty well known group of researchers in France. This is very controversial there and being discussed I've also received. I feel like a somewhat surprising amount of hate mail for an article. That just walks you through some methodological flaws in a minor scientific study. There is anger and the kind of the kind vitriol that we see in other areas of really polarized American life around race and immigration and these Very emotive things. That trump's phobia often inspires. That is I was a bit surprised to find was being directed at me. Based on the fact that I had delineated questions and concerns about something scientific which is not fundamentally partisan issue but that has been made partisan by the way that trump has dealt with it. Thank you thank you so much. Juliette Carrie Wong is reporter for the Guardian. She traced the misinformation campaign in herpes. Hydroxy chloroquine. How an unproven drug became. Trump's corona virus miracle cure. That's it for this week's podcast extra but before we go. We wanted to remind you of a powerful tool at your disposal. Yeah keep washing your hands and keeping your distance but also if you like. Oh tm and really how could you not love with all the thrills and spills and background? Music we provide. Could you please rate and review the show on your podcast listening platform of choice not to feed vanity but because it helps other people discover on the media which we think is a net gain can also recommend us to your friends and family in your next zoom? Call whether it's a yoga class. We'RE GONNA Eastern meal and tell them we said. Hey
Inside Trump's Facebook campaign podcast
"Today inside Donald Trump's face but reelection campaign the impact of the death TV presenter Caroline flack on any given day the trump campaign will probably star running anywhere from two thousand to six thousand new ads. I am asking you cheese. Rape Throughout two thousand nineteen to the Guardians. Us Technology reporter to Carrie Wong has been investigating. How the trump campaign is using facebook to target voters. When I log in and start scrolling. I mean it's just overwhelming. Believe me we're just getting started. Even if you were to scroll to the end of the new ones on a single day you just know that the next day there's going to be two to six thousand more fact. Donald Trump won but Democrats to overturn the election. Don't let them. She spent a year analyzing how twenty million dollars a facebook. Appetizing is helping the trump team understand. What MAKES THEIR SUPPORTERS TICK? And what will encourage them? Stay nate to the campaign. When you start to immerse yourself in this world it's different space than within that space. You know you start to see the logic of trump and their media lapdogs fall in line. They lost the election now. They want to steal this and that can be very very frightening. Donald Trump and I approve this message from the Guardian. I'm Rachel Humphries Today Infocomm. We'll facebook be the key to getting trump reelected. What was the row of facebook in the two thousand sixteen election? When Donald Trump won the nomination and twenty sixteen? He had very little of what you might term kind of a political campaign operation. He had not had organizers in states and cities around the country that were out and knocking on doors and talking to people what he had you know he had this incredible kind of media monopoly as far as everything that he said was massively repeated and then he had this great popularity that was taking place on social media and so he brought in a campaign kind of digital campaigner who started working aggressively on facebook. We're going to make America great again. I love you all the red hat and the phrase make America great again I mean he launched his campaign kind of Azam me. Those are sharable emotive snippets that become things that people react to and want to react to share their reaction and get other people to react to so the whole kind of Donald Trump 2016 experience was really primed for the world of facebook. And you know we don't really know exactly how much out the facebook campaign mattered. But we do know that that once he had his campaign up and running. He invested a huge amount of money in facebook advertisements and he really dominated that area he tapped into the idea that facebook could be a great replacement for on the ground campaigning. But that happened something that have been established by candidates in the past with facebook. Yeah and Obama in twenty twelve had definitely used facebook quite a bit. You know. That's the thing I mean. It's not like he was unique in using facebook. I mean trump's message from you know an and especially on social media has really dug into the dynamics of social media that reward divisiveness anger exclusion us them thinking. I mean these are all things that really thrive in an algorithm MIC ecosphere. Where the things that are driving the most emotion are the things that you're seeing more and more so whether it's hope will hate. It's a language of extremes that does really well on facebook. Yeah I mean I think that if a politician is urging you to be you know. Think and BA- thoughtful in kind of sit back and consider your options. That is not a response that facebook is going to say. Ooh We want more people that are not clicking and because they're just sitting there thinking what facebook will respond to is Ooh you you immediately smashed that angry face button and facebook takes that as a signal that something could even though. That's not necessarily something that I think. Objectively we should view as good. And where was Hillary Clinton and all this? What was her facebook campaign? So Hillary Clinton's facebook campaign was much smaller. She was doing the things that people always say that you should do. Simple powerful idea reveille that we are stronger together and kind of crucially. Facebook itself was offering To campaigns in two thousand sixteen they said to the campaigns. We will send you a team of our engineers and embed them with you and let them show you how to use our ads and you know train you on how to do this. Facebook out could be worked with both Democratic and Republican campaigns. That trump campaign said absolutely. Come on in. We don't know what we're doing you show us. The Hillary Clinton campaign said actually were fine. were quite competence and they declined the The assistance I'm Hillary Clinton and one last time I approve this message. That's so interesting. That hitter East campaign rejected that help. I mean Hilary thinks she was better at doing them I you know. Hindsight is twenty twenty on this point. It definitely is. It is say. Trump's campaign says defaced but gaps. That you can come in and work with us who specifically went from facebook to work with trump team so there there was one particular engineer a man named James Barnes. Who was there a embedded staffer and he was a lifelong Republican and he was helping to really fine tune some of the very complicated tools that facebook has for advertisers. He was helping them to figure out. You know if you have a list of voters that have showed up to your rallies you can actually upload that into facebook from your end and then facebook will go ahead and match those that showed up at your rallies. They will find their personal facebook pages and help you to send them an ad. That is incredibly powerful. You know to to take a real life activity and somebody's name or email address and find them on facebook and then shoot them specific ad. That'S SCARY. That's so specific it's incredibly specific. You can also buy all the marketing data and say well. I also want everybody that subscribes to field at river and start to get really a personal about people's consumer choices And then plug that into facebook and facebook kind of does it's wizardry. Says all right now I have you know one thousand people that live in rural Wisconsin that subscribed to a hunting magazine and that voted Republican and the last two but voted for Obama Last time around and I'm going to send them a specific ad that nobody else wealthy off facebook providing people to work on the trump campaign. This time they I think that they have Just based on the amount of media scrutiny. I think that they have decided to stop doing that. But is James Bond's he worked on it before. Is He back there again? No so James Barnes actually kind of interesting journey. He had been kind of a lifelong Republican. And I think had you know felt perfectly fine doing his job to help. Donald Trump get elected but last year. He actually left facebook and went to work for a democratic Nonprofit that is aiming to use digital ad campaign strategies to get trump out of office and twenty twenty so working for trump convinced him to work for the Democrats this time around but he has stuck around to work for for trump on his facebook campaign in two thousand. Sixteen trump digital campaign was run by guiding Brad. Pascale having that data right there we start to see where persuadable targets. Or the data the data ally. And that's the beauty about data a kind of Texas based digital marketing. Guy He famously kind of I Came into contact with the trump family just by Building a website for them and ended up running digital campaign which I think in two thousand sixteen largely men letting facebook run the digital campaign for them. He was elevated to be the overall campaign manager for trump's reelection campaign. So he's now running the whole show New Hampshire. He appears quite often at trump's rallies. He has become kind of a fan favourite. This giant six foot eight man with a large Viking. Bear SWEET. Very striking looking. We're going to do a writing. Twenty twenty we're GonNa make key talks very big game about these sophistication of the facebook ad and how much they're doing you know. And and they. They talk about their camping. Headquarters is kind of being the death star. Most of the report of a lot of the reporting on what was so smart that they did in two thousand sixteen was just to let other smart people. Run it for them And they're certainly. I think using it effectively to raise money Julia. You've been analyzing trump facebook adverts for the past year what seems to be different about his facebook campaign this time around. I mean the main thing that is different. This time around is that we're able to actually see it and that's just completely different than what happened in two thousand sixteen. You know in two thousand sixteen we were entirely. Reliant on individual citizens may be seeing an ad and screen shotting but we we honestly just don't know everything about what he was doing. This time around were able to see them and do some analysis and see what he's talking to voters about. We worked with a developer to build a database that kind of took the archive and scrape everything that we could get out of there for all of the ads that trump ran in twenty nineteen and and then from that we were able to to look and kind of do some analysis to say. Well what issues is he talking about? What's the tone here? What are the kind of messages that he's bringing to people? And what kind of topics of these ads focusing on other the same themes coming up again and again. Yes trump's signature issue since he launched his campaign has been immigration and stopping illegal immigration by building a wall on our southern border. That Mexico will pay for. We're going to build the wall. We have no choice. We have no choice. And He's been pushing. You know building a border wall on the southern border demonizing and Being very negative about immigrants and that is absolutely one of the top issues that comes up in the ads based on kind of a keyword analysis that I did this whole database. Build that wall one thing that I was surprised by though was that even above immigration. The number one topic that comes up was just being negative about the news media. That is really you know one out of every five ads that that is part of the message that he is using and I want you all to know that we are fighting the fake news. It's fake tonight. The media's lying to you and we have evidence phony fake. You wouldn't know it from watching the news. America is winning and while while there are you know a lot of these angry messages about immigration media impeachment etc. A huge swath of themm are actually practically nonpolitical but are clearly kind of tuned to get the supporters that see them to click on a link and enter their email address their mobile phone number and they're going to use that data later on the line and they use a ton of kind of the type of language that makes people feel a sense of urgency. Hurry hurry hurry. There's a deadline coming. If you sign up now they y'all be entered twice in a rally. Ed Your name to my list of supporters before nine pm tonight to a number of ads that are just signing a kind of a holiday card for members of the trump campaign donald trump and Melania trump are not going to sit down and look at it list of people that signed birthday card every trump supporter. Pick up the phone right now and deliver a personal. Thank you to your president but it is a very effective way to get somebody to give you their email address so once they have your email address. They don't have to rely on facebook to get in touch with you anymore. Now they can also just go around facebook in email you directly or if you give up your phone number text directly from the efforts that you've watched how they targeted the Democrat you see. Trump's political opponents are mentioned all the time in these ads. You know the number one person that is a target. Is Nancy Pelosi the speaker of the House and she just comes up over and over and over again retrial of our national security and betrayal of the integrity of our elections. Interestingly Elizabeth Warren was the candidate that he kind of went after the most turnover thinking. Somehow he's going to shut me up to the team here seems to be women. Yes I think. That's very much and you know in the language is Is really quite shocking. Often you mentioned Nancy Pelosi and I'm watching. The A lot of vitriol was directed towards her because of the impeachment process how trump's facebook ads respond to that inquiry. When you read and watch these ads you can you understand that? There's a very Deliberate effort being made to Draw out feelings of resentment and kind of unjust persecution and There's often you know often this kind of appeal to the idea that both you the viewer of this ad and trump are being treated unfairly. And if you just come together you can fight back against that and you can see how. The impeachment has kind of played into that He uses the language of of unjust persecution of witch hunt. This scale are lying about me. And then he turns it and he makes it about the individual and he says they're doing this because they don't want you you to get to decide the future of this country. They want to take away your vote. I think the impeachment really He he used that really kind of and very explicitly to make his impeachment and to try to make it into an attack on his supporters. Who was corrupted was dirty cups leakers liars? Then this should never ever happened to another president ever. I can see how it would be effective. You know when you read these ads and you kind of try to put yourself into that emotional space. I can see how that would work. Let's talk about the Democratic candidates. How are they using? Facebook IN ELECTION CAMPAIGN. The Democratic candidates on facebook for the most part are still using facebook ads in kind of the traditional democratic campaigning manner. I'm not afraid to stand up to billionaires and corrupt politicians. I've been doing it for years. Real chain Deborah takes place from the top on down but always from the bottom on fair much more traditional. They're often kind of persuasion. Based you just don't see the kind of negativity in those ads that you see from the trump campaign folks. America's an idea is stronger than any army bigger than any ocean more powerful any dictate. You also see some of the same kind of list building techniques and that is definitely something that the Democratic candidates are learning from. They are also running contests. Yesterday I was looking at Pete Buddha judges campaign and he's running a contest to have pizza with Pete. Everyone we're in South Benham at one of my day replaces joy and peace as you can see how entering your email. And they won't draw somebody and somebody will get to have a slice of pizza with people rich edge while we're just one slice of pizza. I mean maybe they might have a whole automatically entered and I hope I'll see you here in south bend but are they spending as much as trump is on these upwards so there has been a major development in the Democratic field Just in the recent months which is that a note late November Mike Bloomberg jumped into the race. The Battle of the billionaires is on Michael Bloomberg officially jumping into the twenty twenty race and he's a billionaire businessman built. A huge company went into politics and was elected mayor of New York and he is spending outrageous amounts of money a belief that he is now personally outspending the trump campaign on facebook. I'm what's his facebook campaign light? Compared to trump's he appears to be running a an almost TRUMPIAN facebook campaign although it's very much anti trump a white house beset by lies chaos and corruption and administration that has failed the American people. Also trump is launching thousands of different ads a day and they're very emotive and it means like Mike Bloomberg would get it done. The truck coming actually ran a small set of ads. That used images of what I would describe as cute and imperilled animals To try to get people to Click so these were ads. They showed a poorly cute puppy but it was so dark and he looked a little bit cold and he was maybe behind a chain link. Fence it said. Donald trump is fighting against cruelty to animals. The bluebird campaign is running practically the same ads. They also have adorable pictures of puppies and cats and they say Mike. Saves animals how does face but regulate political advertising on its platform. Facebook does not regulate clinical advertising on its platform in a nutshell There are certain rules that they apply to all advertisers But one of the very controversial things that facebook did last year was that they announced that one of the rules that they have for regular advertisers. Advertisers that are selling sneakers or sell advertising. A small business is that they're not allowed to be misleading. They're not allowed to lie last fall. Nick Clegg former deputy prime minister who now works for facebook gave a speech and revealed that they had decided to exempt politicians from that rule And they're basically saying we're not going to enforce that we're not going to prevent politicians from lying in their ads. Not only that but they also facebook does have a third party fact checking program. They said that they are exempting. All ADS FROM THAT PROCESS. We do not submit speech by politicians to our independent fact checkers and we generally generally allow it on the platform even when it would otherwise breach our normal content rules. What was their reason and justification for doing that? Their justification is that they think that the people should be able to see what politicians are. Say that if a politician wants to lie in an ad that's useful information for voters to have and so then it is up to the press to then publicize and inform the citizens that the politician is lying. And I think that a lot of people think that their actual reason is a that they don't WanNa get into a fight with the trump campaign and be it would be almost impossible the scale of the ads that are going to have fact checkers checking every single one before it goes up that would require thousands and thousands and thousands of more people working for facebook to do that work so face because made easier for political parties to wherever they won't upon the platform and they're still making it difficult for us to find out how that works is simply because it makes them a lot more money. I think probably the one of the reasons that facebook's not doing it is because It would be very difficult for them to To make the call between what is a political ad in what isn't and that would almost require as many staff as it would require to a fact. Check them the other thing is that I also think that. Facebook believes in its own propaganda. I think that Mark Zuckerberg thinks that his products are good and people no longer have to rely on traditional gatekeepers in politics or media to make their voices heard and and that has important consequences. And I think that that is probably a misconception on his part but that is a very core belief of his that facebook is good for the world. But I actually believe that the much bigger story is how much these platforms have. Decentralized power by putting it directly into people's hands it's part of this amazing expansion of voice that we've experienced through law and culture and now technology is well having spent a year watching facebook apart from the trump campaign. How do you think the this might play out in the election? He is going to start focusing more and more on his Democratic candidates. You know as that field narrows currently as we speak. He's in some kind of twitter war with Mike Bloomberg. He's GonNa start getting very very personal about the candidate says well between now and November twenty one we are going to keep on working. We are going to keep on fighting more of the same ready to definitely more of the same and I think that one of the things with the trump campaign in general is that you keep you know. I keep thinking that I've lost my ability to be shocked and then I get shocked again and we will make a great again. Thank you keep up the good work. Thank you for speaking to me. Thank you so much you can read you. Carry Wong's investigation at the GARDEN DOT COM and turn into a political race closer to home on Tuesday. The Twenty Fifth February initiative is hosting Labor leadership hustings in Manchester. Tickets still available and you can buy them on the website. Coming up later green on the death of Caroline flack now there's been an outpouring of tributes to Caroline flack. The full of alum presented died on Saturday. She'd recently been under intense scrutiny. Her arrest for an alleged assault against her boyfriend and was G to stand trial next month. Guardian Journalists legroom reflects only impact. The News of her death has had on her. Do you really nice somebody. If he followed them. On Social Media I've been quite surprised at how hearts caroline flagstaff hit. Obviously it doesn't compare to the grief that her friends and family will be feeling but it did actually stop me in my tracks for funds of Love Island like me and especially those social media. Caroline flack has kind of seeped into our lives. If the last five years she was living rooms every summer and on our phones almost every day. We've watched her on nights out easing lunch singing piano after following her for a while you start to develop opinions about her clothes about her presenting styles about her love life. They were all private opinions. But you kind of felt like you're in a one sided relationship with this person from the TV in a time where we want. Famous people to seem authentic. It was actually vulnerabilities in particular In her romantic life that made her relatable and gave people so much more to talk about and then she died and it felt really different from other celebrity. Deaths with people like David Bowie. You did know them in a sense. He that music but he didn't know what they did with the Friends of the weekend. Do you might have watched Robin Williams films. But he still didn't know the person the characters he played with Caroline. You being lulled deeper and deeper into this relationship with her three social media and for many people it's been painful and quite confusing to try and reconcile the happy caroline that we got so yeast to with this tragedy. Say what's left in her. Absence is all the stuff people are saying about her. There are heartfelt tributes from those who knew and then he have a newspaper deleting a negative article written about her just the day before her death. The press hadn't absolutely field day with her fall from grace. They trolled through all the details of her life story after story but honestly somebody who follows her. I probably would have ended up reading some of these stories but no matter how enticing gossip may I just really think that we need to stop incentivizing in the top league. Press to treat anyone in the public eye as fair game. Social media has allowed celebrities to invite us into certain parts of their lives. And we've taken that as an invitation into all of the parts of their lives. Perhaps we need to redraw boundaries and start feeling like we have ownership over people just because we follow them online agree. If you've been affected by any of the issues they're raised. Samaritans can be contacted in the U. K. On one six one. Two THREE OR JOE J. O. At Samaritans other international helplines can be found at befriend is dot org thanks to layer and Julia Carrie. Wong today's episode was produced by Serena Barcus. Sing and Courtney. Isa Sound Design was by Akzo Kakuta and the executive producers on Jackson and Phil may not. We'll be back tomorrow.
Security vs privacy who wins? Chips with Everything podcast
"The the God what we have so far is information to that up to three people had entered the building and had opened fire on people inside of the building we do have some clemency numbers of upwards of fourteen people that are dead upwards of fourteen people that are injured on the second of December two thousand fifteen husband wife walked into an office Christmas party for employees of the Audion US based in San Francisco she recently reported that facebook was going full steam ahead with its plans to implement end to end encryption across its messaging services frequently commonsense gun safety laws stronger background checks but another debate was brewing in the background I'm good we're having a very strange technology day in the bay area today because we're about to lose power for a week Genia Carrie Wong is a technology reporter for I'm Jordan Erika Weber and this week I look at what the latest battle between governments and big tech says about where we draw the line on privacy versus security earlier this year in the spring facebook announced that they wanted to take all of their various messing platforms so that's facebook the FBI wanted apple disable it apple wouldn't comply the tech giant which positions itself as the privacy company argued this is chips with everything I it's Jordan how are you should help authorities to break into a phone used by one of the shooter's iphones have a feature that blocks access if the password is guessed incorrectly multiple times and online child abuse so we'll governments from around the world and the biggest players in silicon valley ever find a compromise agreeing to these demands would open up a Pandora's box the with sacrifice the trust of uses in the end this battle fizzled out because the and to end encryption on all of its messaging services denying authorities access to what they argue is vital in order to protect people from heinous crimes like terrorism gables is actually overwhelmingly affecting law enforcement a couple of months after the shooting the FBI and apple for legal battle over whether or not the company as I said it affects our counterterrorism work San Bernardino very important investigation to us we still have one of those killers phones that we have not been able to open and it's been over precisely so that even somebody comes with all the appropriate legal authorities they cannot do it the question of which takes precedence secure be I found another way to break into the phone but the whiter argument didn't end that I think what it showed up was that actually which means that people's messages would be encrypted the meaning of the messages would never be visible to facebook itself it's we'll probably were able to get into the phone and that's one of the things that's been a hallmark of of this whole debate is that they set up these systems give the company employs end to end encryption all of its messaging services in the last couple of weeks facebook has stepped into the ring with its plans to expand its use of injure WHATSAPP and instagram direct messages and they wanted to combine the you know integrate them into one universal facebook messaging system the two months now we're still working on it the growing use of encryption both to lock devices when they sit there and to cover communications as they move over fiber optic because gun laws there are some steps we could take not to eliminate every one of US mass shootings but improve the odds that they don't happen as documents in history to make the public start demanding greater privacy when you sent a message typically a messaging APP it would be secured professor Alan Woodward is a security expert at the University of Surrey and a consultant to Europol he says it took the leak of the biggest cash of topsy about encryption right well to explain end to end decryption as we're taking a step back to where things were really pre the snowden revelations ripped end to end so the message is only visible to the person who sends it and the person who receives it before we got into the criticism of these plans I wanted to understand a bit more across the platform he signed open letter along with senior figures from the Australian and British governments as well which argues that people safety people say it could be at risk not or privacy has been hotly debated since the start of the digital era US attorney general with Inbar is urging facebook to give up on plans to encrypt messages in the same way that things are secured when you go to a website so he's a little thing the padlock https is tearless And so from you as I'm just GonNa read it straight off the Washington Post the United States is charged Edward Snowden with espionage here's the quote federal prosecutors have filed sealed criminal complaint against Edward Snowden the former nationals to serve it would be encrypted and then from the server onto recipient it would also be encrypted using the same method but whilst it was out the server of course he wasn't actually appropriate authorization you can't listening to our messages and so what they did was introduced end to end encryption which is where the key drifted what's best law enforcement agencies would do is with appropriate warrants they could sit at the server and set his messages we have breaking it and that they were also going to take the end to end encryption that is already in place with what's up and apply that across the entire platform riptides data because it was gooky will scrambled so if something was encrypted and was intercepted you could you could imagine it would be of interest doing things such that only those two participants in the conversation actually have the keys to the compensation how common is the use of encryption in companies today just all us as for the for the secret compensation the shed the shared secret is only shed between the recipient and sender it's not stored anywhere else typically security agency contractor who leaked trove of documents about top secret surveillance programs the United States has asked Hong Kong to detain him on a provisional arrest warrant according to US officials crime that might be taking place on these platforms so some of the concerns against any corruption have been laid out in this open letter to mark Zuckerberg at the getting very much on saying that if facebook encrypt all of this information that will take away a tool that law enforcement agencies and governments have sending your emails for whatever anything that goes over the web these days is typically encrypted when you see that little padlock https on a website you are using encryption Taber who wrote the letter exactly how did it come about the letter was written by the US Attorney General William Bar the US Acting Secretary we'll we all use it everybody uses it without realizing it this is part of the problem this is sort of a conundrum in it we need it for visiting websites to protect its uses privacy and they say that this is their way of trying to do that but people have found fault with this plan the government's right now are focused it's important to note that this letter it has no legal effect you know it's a shot across the bow it's a warning at the moment these governments don't you gotta understand the encryption really is I suppose is the bedrock now every ev- everything you can't sit on a line somewhere with metaphorical Actually have the power to force facebook to do or not do something that facebook wants to do with its platform but what these three countries Homeland Security Kevin McKell Leinen and then the UK Home Secretary Pretty Patel and also signed by the Australian Minister for Home Affairs Peter Dutton and I so those conducting surveillance zero in on things that were encrypted but now everything's encrypted it's very difficult to pick out I mean it's just all noise so how'd you gotta remember our global and not just US or UK oriented and they were saying well we want to be sure that even if a government comes up to you with me I to investigate really terrible crimes like Child Abuse Imagery Child Sexual Exploitation terrorism and other kinds of transnational oh push for legislation but that of course would have to go through all of the democratic processes to get legislation but they're basically saying we're preparing to wage a pretty it's wall day then did was after the revelations a number big tech companies responded to worries being expressed by and uses who could the debate going forward if they attempt to make some kind of legislative or regulatory action after the break will talk more about why soccer bug is likely to ignore the requests outlined in the letter and why the idea of decryption is potentially more dangerous than encryption therapies have long been frustrated by how long it takes to access data that they think they should be able to see facebook has been criticized in the past for not doing enough independent journalism has never mattered Moo when we are free to follow any lead and question any authority we can confront the status quo uncover v are saying you know is that they're issuing a warning they're saying that we are going to publicly fight you on this it is possible that they will try to hi old exploitation and you're GONNA be enabling terrorism so this was you know it was kind of a a legal regulatory letter but it was very much trying to see welcome back to chips with everything I'm Jordan Erika Weber this week we're looking at one of the biggest questions of the digital era how do you protect people's privacy pick out what you actually want there's a whole different set of techniques now developed so it's not unusual for companies to use encryption to ensure that data from clients office safe a public battle and we are going to make our argument on the sympathetic cases that if you do this you're going to be enabling crocodile clips and actually listen in is not not like old phone calls anymore and one of the problems is that in the days of surveillance used to be able to pick out in this is if and when those authorities deem it necessary I asked security expert Alan Woodward to explain what that might look like basic cable too also ensuring that safety before the break the Guardians Tech reporter in San Francisco Julia Carrie Wong told us about an open letter signed by represents access to the content of communications in other words a backdoor option for authorities to access fully encrypted data from the company's messaging the way things are isn't the way they have to be but knowing what to charge and how to change it is almost clear that's with your support you'll always find it at the Guardian ooh tre there are other techniques other methods that people have discussed in the past try and give lawful so-called lawful access there are limited very good example of where now you can go online and you come back opuses keys so you actually rendered the lock useless and the same thing would happen if you know if you had a master and for example encryption is based on having a secret key if you've got secret key you know how things encrypted you can use the same album and decrypted but actually you could sit on the server and read the things in an unencrypted way there there are a number of potential ways you can tackle these things people is the generic phrase of back door but the most likely in terms of a messenger system he's going to be as we've just discussed something that you sit on the server but there are other ways of escrow so that when someone needs lawful access they can get it but of course who's to say that it's just the US and the UK and the Australian government what about if key some you know the bad guys would discover it is like leaving the key under the mat once somebody knows it's there they'll find it we'll be back after this alternates I'm bring clarity to the world's most complex issues we can help our readers understand the world say together we can fight for a better one hope is power lodge back key somewhere so-called key escrow I mean one of the key problems with key escrow is who has access is very well saying well we'll put these things Russians or the Chinese or the Iranians wanted to come along and say well I want access to your these keys now it becomes a bit of a nightmare for the organization the bad guys to have a go at your friends as well because we're all using the same encryption the other way of doing it is to have some kind of mass Turkey but is about weakening encryption is that you may weaken it so you can track and conduct surveillance on you enemies but of course allows the things were before the snowden revelations before they put into ending corruption I you would have encrypted into the server and from the server to the recipient range of locks orgy habit so that every instance of a particula encryption algorithm has his own master key in which case if he did colling encryption because it isn't just the messaging APP so low this open letter was to facebook about the messaging APPs of course as we've talked about you know things like iphones accent so one of the ways that very early on people said in order to protect ourselves and be able to do forensic work for example law enforcement to frenzy people should have great swathes of people would suddenly be be made vulnerable child protection is one of the criticisms of full and encryption in that letter the ministers wrote that in twenty eighteen facebook made sixteen point eight million reports to the US National Center for Missing and exploited tips the US UK and Australian governments to facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg the intention of the latter was to encourage him to create quote a means for lawful ask you about say the government gets access to one of these master keys that lets them gain access to encrypted messages so if we compare that to and sure physical key is it more like a key that Ernie opens one door or is it like a key to the city could it Arnie be used once or basically it uses in DC hillman key exchange which would be known about for decades and it's a way of you can't break is laws of mathematics is aware of Exchan- The facebook uses a system of hashing images which is basically kind of applying a distinct fingerprint to an image book is the primary platform that is being used by a child abusers it could mean that but it could also mean that facebook doc is doing a much better job than other platforms of actually making these reports that said it is true that one of the key dron more than ninety percent of the eighteen point four million total reports that year it later states that if these plans went through then the end and again bearing in mind the US based global even though they are American oriented Dave got to decide eight or become the keeper of who they give these keys too so that that's one big then you're back to the whole key escrow thing again where you know somebody's GonNa keep a copy of those so the only way to really make it workable is something like a master key the Emmy see estimates that seventy percent of facebook's reporting twelve million repulse globally would be lost the fact that facebook has such a large else with potentially encrypted communication which could allow child abusers you know very particular path to grooming so that it is relatively daybreak not necessarily for you of me but you know for somebody with significant resources they could break the encryption one of the chair overall of the reports that are being reported by this organization does not necessarily mean that as that facebook is able to detect this this material as it's being shared will go away if they implement end to end encryption uh-huh and that raises fears that things like child abuse might go unnoticed as Allen explains it's a difficult issue to navigate the bad guys all that's a very good example of where now you can go online and you come back opuses keys so you actually render the lock useless and the same thing would happen if you know if you had that is raised in the open letter that does make a strong argument is that they say that part of their concern about facebook is that it combines open profile whenever a government decided they wanted to do well that's actually one of the other issues about most do you have a master key that opens a whole ask the key some you know the bad guys would discover it is like leaving the key under the Mat wants somebody knows it's there they'll find it so we've got another key analogy it would be to have it so the unlocked a whole slew of different incriptions and you can imagine the nightmare scenario where that master key became discovered encryption to minimize home if facebook goes ahead with that plans then no one including its own moderators will be able to monitor what's happening on these messaging plans that it can then be automatically detected every time that it's uploaded or shared if facebook has end to end encryption it will no longer be able to detect those images which means that you have a situation where potential abusers have kind of the equivalent of a phone book for thirteen year olds which is not something that children for abuse and I do think that that is a real concern facebook allows children as young as thirteen to be members of social media profile Russian superbug said that child exploitation risks weighed quote most heavily on him when he was making the decision he also pledged steps outside devices can be encrypted so the forensically you cut off to the fact even if someone is suspected you can't get things that could potentially convict them going to misuse this one of the things we founded increasingly in investigations encryption and the I suppose you could call it the misuse of encryption is being shared that would just make that part of the investigative process in the reporting process it will no longer exist I also think that one of one of the points is actually something growing I mean people know they can they can not just render their communication secret but you know even data on but many security experts are imploring facebook to continue to refuse them is that any indication you think that facebook might back down anytime soon one thing home with kids grow the other way of doing it is an I suppose this is what some people again call a back door is to weaken the encryption so you make it and political grief in recent years when it comes to end to end encryption I mean there have been story after story after story negative articles about in the regular world exists children don't have their names and contact information in phone books in a live streamed version of facebook's weekly internal Kyun Days United States that includes incitement to violence in Myanmar where the platform was used to help stoke frightening levels of violence and has more to do with facebook's desire to limit its own exposure to a number of the problems that have caused it huge amounts of kind of public now does that mean that you should ban encryption you can't is about mind because it's too it's too pervasive so I think where they're going and to integrate its various messaging APPS has less to do with you know some new found a belief in privacy about facebook and this this decision is that many observers believe that facebook's desire to move into end to end encryption put facebook when it comes to their failures to manage the content on the platform and that includes you know hate speech in the should by all means have the conversation encrypted to the server and from server but allow is a window into that if we've got the appropriate authorizations once there is end to end encryption across all of the messaging facebook can basically wash its hands of all of that content model uh this open letter is just the latest in years of governments asking access to encrypted information aces but please don't implemented any further until you've had a discussion with us and what they're actually talking about it's not changing this technical architecture keep it as it was the and security you know there is going to be strong end to end encryption or not and when it comes to governments it's going to be against the ROE engine minority as well as you know in India and Sri Lanka platforms have been used dangerously to to stoke violent mobs get in touch with any questions or suggestions for future shows email us at chips podcast APP The Guardian Dot Com tips is produced by Danielle Stevens and snowden before snowden made his revelations which is that we could come along and sit on the server and listen to things I don't implement true end to end they don't know what's happening a facebook doesn't back down then this open letter from the US UK and Australia may well have been futile but it won't be the last time because with the best will in the world I'm not sure some of the politicians fully understand what they're asking for however I think the sheer volume that government's attempt to stronghold big tech companies into granting them access at this stage it's difficult to foresee where we might see a compromise in this debate between privacy America Weber thanks for listening for movement horsemen to all pass catcher analysts to all critics that they can't be held responsible for what's being done on their platform when it comes to private messaging because I'm Ben Edina County Department of Public Health in California they started shooting killing fourteen people and injuring many others the mass shooting prompted arguments over and if you read the open metal I'm reading in the lines but this open letter what they're saying is please don't implement this any fine we understand it's in place in certain unfortunately the law enforcement agencies we'll have to deal with the consequences huge thanks to Julie I can imagine that people are facebook probably will in the end just go full things into of Nisei no privacy trumps everything and implemented anyway uh to them to try to pass the laws in the US and the UK in a democratic manner and they're going to have to fight against the privacy advocates against the tech companies thing now we go we've got to allow people some way but having said that you know that profit-driven they are organizations where ration- and simply say we don't see it we don't know what's happening it's not our problem it will make it much easier for them if they can simply say to all on level liberties advocates to see if they can make that happen Allen agrees I think it's just gonNa keep going and I think as I said before it's one of those holiday periods is gonNA keep coming in costs from the Guardian The Guardian Dot Com Slash podcasts Carrie Wong and Alan Woodward for coming on the show this week you can check out Julius piece as well as other work on the Guardian website but that's all for me make all of the misuse of particularly in violence is like child abuse then that may come over an ethical line
"And hello welcome back to the PODCAST. Podcast that is still locked. Down and pair of podcasters. You still haven't seen each other now for several weeks several weeks. It does feel like that as well as time. Strange right now they face it Nehal. Yeah we've not been having our campuses being close to a snow for water week. I think There was two. I've I'm losing track me. Two at time has become strange. Tying feel suspended I feel suspended in time. We probably describe our circumstance. Right now sat in a car. This podcast down the line Because obviously we ought to be in the same place we are. We are social distancing from one another. So yes I in the car outside my dogs because everybody is sleep. It's quite late night. I don't have the luxury of any kind of guarantee or anything cars. A very good record in because they're very very dead inside their designed to kind of debt and old road noise and the engine noise. They're great space to record and But I am literally parked on the side of the road outside my house. I can pick up my Wifi from outside the House and Yeah it's Dark. It's cold and some people just won't pass but addicting. They sold me the link. We go to bring you this podcast. I feel I feel with surpassing ourselves. I think this is good. Yeah it's I I imagine you're probably you're comfortable high so you. My surroundings are nowhere near as as Quirky as yours right. Now I'm in the The tranquility of my study and Yeah I have no cocker Spaniel. You'll be pleased to hear a wandering around me. 'cause he's tie-dyed to walks. Because these self-isolating times we take the dog different shifts so got levingston walked to within an inch of his life or I'm just wondering if all the coding skin to be interrupted by the police coming past asked me whether my journey from my front door to my car was essential or not. The answer is yes it is. We hope that it might feel like proper journalists than some police manno tapping on your window. You Talk I live so we are going to bring you our traditional holiday light edition of Blogs tweets and stories from the news that we've gathered together Mine certainly are not particularly education related as usual. We haven't told each other what we've got an advanced but I can tell you that minor pretty far removed from the world of education deliberately so well one of mine is education related Quite short but the other one is definitely not related. Although I'm sure I'll I'll make some tenuous links But yeah hopefully you will find them of interest and if not you can always switch off. Please don't just stay with us if you can't stay with it. Just it can be freezing in the dark car recorded this. That's worthwhile yeah. Stick it out. Go the long distance for Tom. I'm going I'm going to start this off. You're going to start off with something. Work related this tweet. That came out on a very ominous day. Actually on the sixteenth of March twenty twenty which. I'm pretty sure was the day. That are poor Stevens. We're told that they could no longer be Going into school on their place but anyway this is not related to that. This comes from an a twitter handle at our S and school network. Which is an abbreviation of Research Schools Network? Which is an England based organization? I think have lots of connections with other organizations that we talked about on this podcast such as the Education Endowment Foundation. They have tweeted a quote from a guest blog on the education. Endowment Foundation's website And Quote at reeds treating implementation as a process not an event and seeking to answer the question. Does it work? Hia is how we believe. Our school can best improve. Student outcomes. it sounds quite dry. Leon are light episode but so I just thought I'd I'd mentioned white grabbed me and Tom and I have been an all of our co workers. Colleagues academic had been reading Mary. Miot book of late and She talks a lot about do wing more with less spending more time going deeper allowing teachers more time to think deeply. We've talked about this law in relation to quicken foils just rut really liked this this idea it. The the blog is speaking to senior leaders school leaders mainly but it just makes a refreshing point in the context of evidence informed practice in schools. Who Evidence informed. I dislike this idea that you know implementation is a slow burn Uninvolved a lot of collaboration discussion. Tiny get people on board and also that that really good question that's quoted in that tweet which is does it work here Because there are a lot of fire side than there are a lot of you know really important evidence strategies areas of focus that regain a lot of Menton in education. But I just struck me with this tweet that amidst so of some slightly more vitriolic tweets out there by you know retrieval practice cognitive science which is absolutely Acknowledged to be very very important in the world of education but I dislike the idea that you know with everything we should be asking. Does this work here. And how can we best? You know integrate this in a way. That's going to be right for us and Fowler kids. This is the theme. That would come up all the ones has next. We've talked about this move towards evidence. Informed research informed practice in schools and general. I think a lot of US welcome. I think it's a a real shot in the arm for the profession. But we've we've said more than once said with our friends from impact Wales. We'll said With Professor David James. It's so tempting for that to become the next management stick for beating people with all the next kind of quick fix or or you know sort of thing that the new broom imposes on everybody when they get appointed to a school. And you're and you're absolutely right. There are no shortcuts with this stuff and there are no black and white cut and dried ounces as much as some people might want them to be. Yeah absolutely and when I when I then sort of drill down into the block itself which is quite sure read actually. There was some nice reflect refreshing messages to to school leaders In how they how they grow leadership capacity and how they lead on on change implementation and you know change culture change mindsets and one of the big things that they talk about In this blog with this person talks in this blog by should name him. His name's Roger Higgins Director of Norwich Research School part of the education endowment foundations for search schools network and he talks about the platform for Good School. Implementation is to create the right lead ship environment and carefully plan for implementation as a process not event and he talks about the importance of Senior leadership teams teams working as teams Rather than You know as individuals sort of going around policing everything is. It was just refreshing and for any student teachers out there who have got aspirations for senior leadership roles on the nine. I think is a lot to be found by looking into sort of school culture and implementation of of research informed practice house interesting. I think are sort of mentality building up a little. A little kind of metaphorical drawer marked really controversial. Podcast episodes we should do. I know we said to be recorded. Christmas. Didn't we gonNA really let ripon creativity at some point after Kepler stiff drinks. I think I'm going to add to that. Draw school leadership culture Yeah yeah he said. He says that he says the changes. We're making twenty. Chip habits aren't easy so it's just nice. It's nice to hear that and I hope that it may be nice for any senior leader listeners out there to to hear that two and two You know to to know that we don't see the enemy we see is very very important. Leaders of change in definitely make the occasional Kind of spiky comments about senior leaders sometimes better you know I. I always was aware even even when I was perhaps as a as a teacher. The chalk face kind of cursing the latest Thing to hit my email inbox that they were only being hammered by somebody above them in the same way. Anna wonder whether perhaps it might be worth just putting out their open invitation for any senior leader. Who would like to maybe come on and discuss The complexities and the sort of the pros and cons of different ways of being a senior leader with us. Because I think that could be a really interesting episode. I agree and there's an offer if after I heard done Tom. Okay Kamata senior leaders really WANNA speak to you now. You're up you're okay. So I know we always say blogs and I think I've done this before ended up with a sort of online newspaper column instead but it it's it's effectively a bit like a blog. I suppose I'm cheating slightly This column in. The Guardian called the network which deals with technology and. This is an article that came out. It's written by John Naughton then. It came out on Saturday the twenty eighth of March so just a couple of short days ago. And I'll spare you the sort of fooling the to cope with the bit. That really grabbed me. was a comment that they're making about Amazon. The enormous online giant company Amazon and the role they played in this corona virus pandemic. That's hit us all And just to kind of quickly give you the the punchline of the article the last couple of paragraphs it says that this whole kind of situation with the corona virus pandemic reveals an important truth back to our economies namely the extent to which Amazon has become so central and so powerful he named checks and other journalists at this point. Julia Carrie Wong and says that she's pointed out the Amazon in the US is beginning to behave more. Like a government than the trump administration itself. the author likens the hiring by Amazon of hundred thousand staff and their two dollar an hour. Pay Rice that they've given their staff to twenty-first-century version of F Diaz famous works Progress Administration In in the Great Depression the company sudden support for small businesses around Seattle headquarters so that they might live to serve Amazon. Another Day is. She says akin to a government stimulus package on its decision to stop accepting non essential products from third party. Saleh's who uses warehouses essentially Mites to government style market regulation so the pandemic will radically transform. The Industrial and commercial landscaper Western societies loss of companies. Large and small will go to the wall. No matter how fervent government promises of support our but when the smoke clears in some kind of normality returns a small number of corporations ones that have played a central role in keeping things going will emerge strengthened and more dominant and chief among them will be Amazon. What will then have to come to terms with is. The Amazon is becoming part of the critical infrastructure of Western states. So to perhaps a Google and Microsoft apple is more like a luxury good nice but not essential and the only reason for keeping facebook is what's up in which case one of the big questions to be answered a society's rebuild once the virus is finally being tamed will be. Really difficult one. How should Amazon be regulated? I just found that really interesting because it is absolutely true to to see that Amazon is now becoming so big. It is almost like a kind of like a small country or a government or something in itself and those points about some of the things that he's doing over in America. It's almost kind of taking the reins of of certain things that are traditionally the role of governments And it's just kind of really interesting to think whether this is one of the things that that will come out of this situation a kind of realization that some of these companies are now. I mean you. You just couldn't imagine being without the they have an enormous enormous amount of power and there was. There's been some really scary articles by Amazon. Those are a really terrifying one about Alexa. Outsourced data didn't send you because I know you've got one in your swell just about to say before we started this podcast. I asked Alexa to switch on my steady lights. I'm going to say it's you know she'll switch off okay and funnily enough it some. You know it's something that my half and I've been mindful of since we've been working at home out today because you can you can mute Alexa Stop Her from listening because she does should took speaking speaking about like she actually exist. It does records you. Obviously you can you can. You can look at all your review it you can. You can delete all but does transcribe everything that you've said. Kind of create. It creates micro con recordings of things that it thinks. You're saying to her. It's bizarre so yes an aunt. I'm kind of ashamed to say that you know I have ordered some books and I am awaiting anonymous in delivery right now. Oh yes I still go weak. Yes yes happy. They were still going up so dirty now knows not intended to make you feel at anyway due to you but it is interesting isn't it. There is a very scary out there about the data that they've got about all kinds of ways go tate and not just an accident also things as well and you do wonder what they could do that if they really wanted to yes. Let's just ponder over that we'll see a lot of time to think about it. Think about it too hard. Okay so if I give you my tweets because you yes. You've you've tweeted on blog. So I I should blog tweets as well and this one is very short to the point. It's topical Blinken you may set so this is all of us who are now adjusting to a new life off working at home and meetings online conference calls and all that kind of thing. It's from Donny. Berger who is from Bloomberg TV and it simply says this not meeting your mic. Is THE KNEE REPLY. All loving so much. Because I've been so which on ninety seven meetings over the last two weeks just bang on the money was we're saying people as a celebrity eighty called at Burger Danny got yes backs Yes she's say right and not meeting might and misusing the dreaded reply all and does seem to be the preserve of the same. People doesn't it. I can say this in safety campus. It's fine you gotta social distancing and `isolation and restrictive measures go on for so long enough after this episode. Is Ed suspect? It'll go onto the longer after it's gone on forever renounce now I mean if there any silver linings these circumstances and I absolutely would not want to make light of a very very dire situation moment. But there's going to be so much comedy. Gold that has been captured on the recording functions. On the likes of Zoo and teams. I mean it's probably already starting to come out already but crikey some of the things you hear when people don't meet them. I not meeting like it's the knee reply. All of that person might get up to all of my laughter. This these five minutes of laughter. Okay right now. It's able to me now. Yes Yup Yup. Okay so I before we went into town I actually. I actually had a life and was able to go outside and And do some cultural things as I like to do. Given our tip to it before we actually even read you the article. I was walking to work. Gosh back actually. Working in our office I was walking to work and I was actually listening to Women's hour and on this particular episode there was an interview with a choreographer named Cathy Marston. Who was talking about peace. She had choreographed for Believe it was the royal ballet cold the cellist. I got very excited about this. Because there were a lot of cross curricular links going on in this interview. I'm not going to give spoilers by until I read the review of this piece but I actually run. I run you. Tom Did not listen to this as I was walking along and I was excited about it. And so I-. Judy went to see a a live stream. Screening all the cellist. Choreographed Cathy Marston. Just before everything went into lockdown and I just thought I would read you a very lovely review of it because the review itself is really nicely written touched upon some of the interesting things. This is a a a review by will gone Pertz who arts editor at the BBC. He is at will go puts BBC IF YOU WANNA follow him on twitter and this article is entitled The cellist. Wilga comforts reviews. The Royal Ballet Work inspired by Jacqueline. Behn to pre. It might sound a bit rich coming from someone not noted for as good looks but beauty isn't getting the respect it deserves not so long ago it was all the rage and lighten -ment philosopher Immanuel. Kant was pro beauty. He considered it a form of morality Einstein said enticed the inner child activists and Wise Old Confucius believed everything has beauty but not everyone sees it bringing it into plain sight used to be the job of artists. Authors and composers wearing billowing white shirts and splendid Frou frou collars last seen on Gironde Duran in one thousand nine hundred ninety s but pops new romantics were no match for the relentless march of modernism with its frigid. Less is more dogma and strict. No frills dress code. I blame Marcel. Duchamp. He was the hottest proposed. A urinal is a work of art back in one thousand nine hundred seventeen. He chose it precisely because it was as he said. Anti retinal an unattractive site it was intended as an act of destruction. An Animal Exocet missile aimed at the heart of bourgeois art establishment aligned to a political class responsible for horrific bloody war. It was no time for beauty. Duchamp argued if art meant anything at all. It should speak the truth about what was happening. Which was ugly and base. His toilet scored a direct hit. Romanticism was dead. Henceforth beauty was enough and frivolous cynicism with the new religion for secular age. Music became dissonant literature. Became Fragmented Theater became absurd. An art turned ugly. Caught up among the collateral damage was classical narrative ballet the most romantic of Art Forms. Tutus and fairies had no place in the new order ballet was dispatched to the art doghouse to be consumed by the people of Tunbridge wells or somewhere equally is on cool where locals dress in Brown tweed and mustard corduroy and consider country life magazine not brand of butter and that is where Bali remains with some of the most beautiful choreography in music ever created written office elitist and irrelevant. It's a shame to see exceptionally talented dancers. Express emotions in story through graceful movement accompanied by full. Orchestra is a sensuous experience. Like no other. It isn't Porsche or difficult or any more expensive than going to a GIG or a Premier League football match. It isn't stuck in the Pasta. Cellist has just opened at the Royal Opera House in London. It is a new ballet by Cathy. Marston telling the true story of Jacqueline debris the prodigiously gifted postwar cellist whose career and life recruiting cut short by Multiple Sclerosis the tragic remanded tale of love and loss centered around a young woman in classic class in classic classical ballet. The difference here though is the subject of our heroine's affections isn't a lover and and husband the pianist and conductor Daniel Barenboim but an instrument the eponymous cello. Barenboim gets to play the Goose Bay as he watches his wife enthusiastically. Plonker instrument brought brought vividly to life by the Royal Ballet's newly promoted principal dancer. Marcelino Somebody Lauren. Cuthbertson takes the role of Jacqueline depre-. And as you would expect from one of the finest dance. Sivy generation gives a wonderfully nuanced intelligent performance. The show begins with me. Very Young. Jacqueline played by student at White Lodge Ballet School at home with her parents where she's having a fist encounter with instrument that would make current international superstar by the mid sixties and to Cuthbertson who stands behind. Some Bay had shallow in minds playing playing him to the sound of L. Goes Cello Concerto. It is beautiful. He then left turn Peres says. She maintained a seated playing position which I must admit is less beautiful and took my mind backed duchamp and lavatories no matter it is one of very few awkward moments in peace full of newly found positions which races through. Dupree's life in sixty minutes. Barenboim enters the fray leading to a memorable party TWAT before dredd loons in the form of inexplicable shake in the cellists. Right leg the transformation from women at the top of their game to one confronting. An unknown terrorist is undertaken with enormous skill and sensitivity by Cuthbertson who's onstage chemistry with some. They transmit seller for him her cello with an intensity that makes the hopelessness of the situation. Profoundly moving to have a Taylor and such as hers is a blessing to have it snatched away so soon by a silent. Malevolent kallit condition seems so cruel to her and us. It is the tragedy of something truly marvellous being destroyed. That is not a romantic condition. It a fact of life. Jacqueline debris a reminder that beauty should be cherished not banished it is not an cool or nuff is an idea worth believing in striving for and appreciating that is the message of the cellist delivered with plum by the dances and Orchestra. You company them with a score referencing pieces by Elgar Beethoven Mendelssohn Rachmaninoff and Schubert Beautiful. An asset. Cry Rita get I just I is most is a beautiful beautiful pace and it and it taught me so many things I didn't know anything about Jacqueline debris I hadn't heard Alga And it just led to so many new things for me to find to buy into learned And Yeah it's and it was. It was accessible via streaming. So anyone could access it so again. You know making a making a way to point that you know this is for everyone should be and should our our children be able to access this. I think yes. They should an interestingly. Kathy Masters Mom has asked as well as it's only layers of complexity to work this piece and all that kind of contextual stuff at the start that review about the kind of You know the destruction of the orthodoxies of all the different arts around the first half of the twentieth kind of with our with our work hats on gas appoint Towards how we can perhaps make those powerful connections across subjects. That are new curriculum. Wales is calling for how it can be made to work. Yeah absolutely and again. That's something Another point that Mary might makes in Herbert She's a very short chapter in the book. About Cross curricular planning in the curriculum and she talks about starting with the wider context. And what was going on during the renaissance period. Let's say or post war as You know post I will wars as As will jump it talks about in his article if we start with that then. Maybe we won't end up with tenuous links between subjects. The had works held up as kind of these great works removed from that context. And just sort of help us this. This is a great piece of music. This is a great play or whatever you know so much easier to understand. What's going on when you know what's going on elsewhere in the world I suppose elsewhere in the arts. Yeah totally totally. So if you if you haven't heard of Jacqueline debris read about if you haven't heard Al Gore listened to it and if you managed to get a chance to see the checklist You won't be disappointed. Wonderful wonderful and I am going to bring this whole thing crashing back down to Earth now with mine. This is my role. Is You know you are? This is why we friends your perpetually the the high minded bringer of wonderful things just shed Ross from left field that just ruins the whole thing. I have a feeling this is gonna be quickey unsuitably brains. I do try. Do try to sit on this. Why actually this is A. This is a story from the Times newspaper on New Year's Eve. Twenty nine thousand nine so a little while ago. Came out too little too late for Christmas episode But I'd be sitting on ever since and it's not about education But once I finished reading it's I'm going to invite us all to consider the possible parallels that we could we could draw out From the world of teaching that very special world so here we go put aside all sorts of fine art and general wonderfulness. And listen to this. While there's a watchdog for serious cases of police misconduct. It turns out the everyday caucus offices have their own secret system of punishment. The cake fine. The payments have cakes to colleagues for incompetence on GTS become such an in joke in the force that it has its own mark legislation known as the Cake Offenses Act. Two thousand eighteen with strict rules matching the severity of offense with the appropriate penalty. Fine Sir resulted from spraying a colleague in the face incapacitates spray dropping the case to a squad car in a storm. Drain and falling through a referral. Searching suspects has getting vehicle stuck in snow muddle. Floodwater Constitutes Defense. As does getting locked in or out of a car or Van and crushing any police vehicle including bicycle. Losing breaking and having equipment stolen are punishable by way of cake as Uniform mishaps such as forgetting a hat or wearing the wrong combination of clothing the author of the Act which now extends to other emergency services isn't officer known as the cake legislator who is consulted via social media as to whether an offence has been committed and the appropriate fine in an email to the times. He or she said each offense must be treated on its own merits however some of the worst offenses include leasing prisoner or tasers colleague the highest the highest official findings homemade cake or cooked breakfast for the team second highest is a crispy cream. Trae all in all the whole act is flexible. Things can be increased exceptions made. And that's where I come into my own. The cake enforcer added. The tradition does little to dispel the image of overweight police officers failing fitness tests but the legislator aunts. It's all to help team morale and keep everyone going in a job. That can be thankless and grueling under the miscellaneous cake offenses section. An officer is guilty of an offence if they handcuff malfunction resulting speaking colts. They're also play. Eddie crisps sorry now. They're also in trouble if they play any for Christmas Song police vehicle before December the first or or or lower Christmas try again. It's been a long long lock miscellaneous cake offenses section officer is guilty. Even offense if they have a handcuffed malfunction resulting in the fire service being called there also in trouble if they play any Christmas song police vehicle before December the first or allow Christmas song to play a vehicle without changing the channel. An offense aggravated. If it's last Christmas by worm played this a rookie officer had filed a deceased report with his own name on which was fine with an additional penalty on the anniversary of his death every year and other locked himself in the toilet over Donald's and was fined after staff had to rescue him cake finds are also cold for went out for police posted image of a serving inspector as part of an appeal in place of a suspect. What did result one officer tweeting under the name suburban PC described tripping over his laces while chasing a suspect three weeks later. I'm out of hospital with a ruptured kidney and a hefty fine following a kangaroo court. The National Police Chiefs Council declined to comment without and with that I just like to consider for moments and perhaps put out there on twitter. Anybody would like to contact us with their own versions of this. What would be offenses punishable by cake? Fine in the world of teaching and I'm going to start the ball rolling by saying being reply all and not meeting you Mike Person who jumps the photocopier and walks away loudly ostentatious talking shop in the staffroom at break. Time definitely too many. Still get you to be fun for Your Pinochet instant. Yeah definitely has. The hospitalization of a pupil is definitely grounds for cake. Fine you surely get a cake fight as well if you if you damage yourself. Come back bloody when you're yeah additional. Kate baby bosses. I stay at work as it was in my case yet. Oh Gosh any kind of cheesy gimmick at the start of the school year from a senior leader I remember my one of my old headmistress starting a meeting with three placards that she'd written out in in capital letters and she just she didn't say anything that started the meeting didn't call call attention she's held up these blackout saying it's really not that funny emitting is very funny to saying let's get engaged. Strapless senior leader didn't the other day which icons unfortunately repeat on this podcast. Yes yet got that. Was she'll listeners. if you have any suggestions for offenses and the appropriate cake fine please do tweet. Us and props will make this. A regular thing will will feature a few suggestions if we get any coming in. Please send us in your ideas. Anonymous them you know. We disclose anything. We just need the comedy. Gold Joe but the loads accommodate loads of comedy. Well that was a good balance of of light lights too. Heavy or Geno high-minded low. I think I've I've I've lost my words now after the the handcuff incident. Maybe one of these disclaimer again on the on the front of this episode listeners in lockdown we hope that's given to us yes? I'll I'll be editing some hysteria out of what's B before but some some will remain in undoubtedly and David Lay and hopefully that will give you a smile to save Our next episode is one. It's GONNA be sad for us. This is recorded long before lockdown at Linton the eye of anybody in power it's From the research adds comrie events which took place video though it did not. That's a good earn as well. So do tune in for that one. Lots of really great guest interview very short Punchy guest interviews because basically Tom Doorstep. The mall a intrusion fashion and Any got some absolute gem safety. You have listened to that. Yes and in the meantime. I'm going to get types of my car studio We'LL MYSELF UP AND S. I hope you've enjoyed it. And we'll be back with something approaching our normal service at an lost algae lic back at when we leave the house more than once a day certainly and stay safe and while everybody yes take. We'll be back soon. That was emerson. Tom's Picchi see podcast presented by MFA. And Tom Breeze this light holiday episode was brought to you even association with The Guardian The Times the BBC twitter. And the blog of Roger Higgins director of Norwich Research School if you have any ideas for educational expenses and the cake finds that should be levied. Please tweet US at Thomas Bree or if you have any ideas for educational defenses talk. Okay you have you have that extra okay if you have any ideas for educational offenses. I'm the cake finds. That should be levied. Please tweet US at Thomas. Breeze or FAA underscore CMU. We hope you enjoyed light episode as much as we enjoyed recording. It take care of yourselves and we'll be back in a fortnight job of comedy gold. Either be fine. That'd be fine.
TWiG 552: Graduate Nerdalism
"It's time for tweet this week in Google Jeff and Stacey are here. There's lots to talk about including why Google is skipping version. Eighty two of chrome. What's going to happen to vid con the Tokyo Olympics and Google? I O plus an interesting proposal to eliminate all AD tracking jeff debate next on twitter this week in Google comes to from twits last pass studios staying control. When it comes to your company's access points in authentication last pass makes enterprise level security simple check out last past dot com slash twit to learn more podcasts. You love from people you trust this is. This is twig this week in Google episode. Five hundred fifty two recorded Wednesday march twenty fifth twenty twenty graduate nettlesome. This episode of this week in Google is brought to you. By worldwide technology worldwide technologies advanced technology center is like no other testing in research lab with more than half a billion dollars of equipment including solutions from key partners like Nvidia and it's virtual so you can access it twenty four seven to learn more and get insights into all the advanced technology center offers go to W. W. T. dot com slash twit and by mid bubble mid mobile provide the same premium network coverage. You're used to but at a fraction of the cost because everything is online Mitt. Mobile makes it. Easy to cut your wireless bill down to just fifteen dollars a month with three months introductory plan and you can get the plan shipped to your door free at mobile dot com slash twig. It's time for tweet this week. Google show where we google. Google is Google Fi. We talk about pretty much anything having to do with modern Internet world media facebook twitter. Google of course we talk about anything you want. Just did you hear that? Yeah what was that? This is the ray telling me You don't have to tell me twice. We can talk about anything you want. That sounds Sassy is a first time. Anybody's responded to the show. Open like that Most of the time they say Google even Google doesn't care nowadays Let me turn off Is there a and I met? I missed John Lennon. That was nice. But now I've got this array in my in my phone that is Jeff Jarvis professor of journalism at the City University of New York at the town night schools. Great to have you Stacey Higginbotham on the left she is of course the hostess Stacey On Iot Iot podcast with Kevin toefl. Stay OUT DOT COM for her newsletter and The three of us make up the show ant is because I I don't WanNa over. I don't WanNA stress out the team. So we're going to do the three of us for the time being we can bring it back Once everything settles in. And if you watch the show and I know very few of you do most of you listen But you'll notice it's a little bit of a different set set up. We're changing how we record our show talking about Microsoft. I know this is the windows. Weekly set up. I'm sorry I love hanging out with Mary. Jo Foley so yeah. Isn't she great So we We do. This is how we used to do it. In the old days in the cottage I would sit here and we'd have skype a source on a big screen behind. I realized by doing that. I can do a the switching so we don't have to bring more engineers in studio. That's one of the few jobs that can't be done work from home. Somebody has to be inherited. Push the buttons and stuff so might as well just be me and for those who were recent to the show and the cottage Leo had the Switzer and the cameras and and the chat and everything they are and it was amazing and it just turning to. I still do Y- I don't have a big I used to have a little t bar and everything and now. It's all virtual on screen over here to my right but You'll see you'll see me when I'm doing the show occasionally look over here because I'm picking the next shot. That kind of thing. I I just keyboard and mouse over here. You are very good at picking are pushing buttons. I am the ultimate button pusher. That's exactly right so boy. There's a lot to talk about lots of things Google Google stop. Here's the interesting thing. Go ahead I just to live up show. Yeah I O which was initially. They said. Well we're GONNA do it. Virtually we'll stream it. They say we're not even going to do that. And I I guess the the reason is even to stream it. You have to bring people together in a room and we have a silly where you could actually. We could actually do it for them if they if an offer. If you thought we just put the speaker in another room and I run the board and were they could sit here if you want to sit on my ball. It's It's here for you so Said we're set up to do that. But but if you think about it for conference to do the seminars and all the things that I don't know I think they could honestly I think they could do it. I think they just What do you think the fear of interest over be interest-? Yeah so I I. I'm scheduled to do a virtual talk for a conference in June and figuring out logistics. They're like hey. Do you WanNa go into a studio to do it. You WanNa do it from your home and I'm still trying to figure out like this is obviously not the most professional setting to do like an actual talk. That's the cool thing. We're all getting Kinda used to that aren't we? Yeah but they. They're like you know. They want control over the production so then I would have to personally travel into a studio setting that they have to find They need to give up on that. Look if you just wholesome and and could do it. Why can't they exactly everybody on? Msnbc is in their more human. So I just I just love it. The New York Times article in the tech section saying that it was bad etiquette for your kids and pets to show up on your conference. Call Awful as I said before we went on you know a dog showed up on. Msnbc She's MSNBC shot with Connie Schultz. Shared Brown's wife. I thought it was great. The dog went up to relapse. Shut up the dog was wonderful so your dog should be on your lap doing the conference. Tell them to get human. I think so. I wouldn't want to give a speech with my dog in my lap. This doctor. Who was the cat. Was it rose at a million dollars? So that's that's the the Mike Myers version? But you're thinking it's not talk to who it's James Earn Stavropoulos blow expelled. I could see you doing Bluefield Thing with the dog. I would like that Stacey. Oh my dog bite my hand off after a certain point she doesn't like oh. I do not want to be on your lap. It's stable. It is interesting that the mainstream media which is always been a kind of authentic and uncomfortable with autheniticity. Have to deal with this. And don't we? I mean this is why podcasting shows like this succeeded. Initially is because people let their hair down and you can see them in their normal environment. I just did a segment for good morning. America where Becky Worley. My old friend asked me Okay what's your advice. It will make your bed. You don't have to dress up the set or anything like that. You don't have to use a green screen but but you know make your bed. Brush your hair. But that's the beauty of this authentic. Plus I got to see what people's homes look like which I love but I'm a you know it's I'm a voyeur. Michael Beschloss the presidential story and that has the best. I guess this must be his home taste in office of course would. I was very impressed by Anderson Cooper's house of course he has excellent taste and the money to vanderbilt vanderbilt. No surprise at all. His house was gorgeous. you know he was. I think in his library or something. I think this is where I don't i. Don't I think this is the secret blessing of all this too? So Stacey you're not really going to follow their orders and go into a place are you. You're GonNa just GonNa hold tapes paying heritage that. He's got to do what they say they're paying. I mean in. They're trying to figure this out in June as far offs. We'll just see I mean I do want to give a compelling presentation. I think it's hard to give a compelling presentation just like here I am trying to talk to you for forty minutes. Which is how long I'm supposed to talk to us. Do you use Any Av Tool you slides but I also I am very big on stage. I too late I oh I talked to the audience. I really try to make it. I'm very I'm a speaker who likes to connect with the audience so so I will do it. Stand UP YOU HAVE A. I mean we could help. I wish maybe like we can help and and it's something I think It's so funny to watch mainstream media grapple with issues that we solved fifteen years ago. Yeah Oh yeah said we don't care. Yeah Yeah Well. Well some of it. We've given up on clearly. But I I like the idea of it being natural in real and we see Jefferson's library and stays in her office and me and my Byzantine Dr no layer toy old fashioned toy store or something really is you can't which is also really your office right. This is my real office yeah This is where I live but I don't do that much in here because I don't. I don't really have a job so the desk is clean on this side. If you were to see that side on the other end is far from clean. Everything gets shoved over to that side. That's one thing that people can learn that like photography. Tv sets a framing. You just control. What's in the frame? Oh here comes. Here comes a visitor a visitor from the east thing. We love seeing people's doggies mine outside. Yeah no that's fine this like you said Jeff is something on your lap for a minute underneath. Oh puppy who's your good dog. Aw Who's who good dog. Don't you honestly feel like this is healing in some ways? I think it is. I think you're right I don't want to I mean. Look this great tragedy. Many will die. Many will sick sick It's it's a horrific for the people. Were losing their jobs. The economy is Suffering also I said this on the last ship. I'm going to get heat for it. I feel like it's kind of forcing us to focus on stuff that really matters instead of the triviality that all of us have been. It's almost God's way of saying stop looking at your phones for one minute to stop thinking about your neighbor at your dog des. Yeah and to see all of these. You know the thing. I always hate about network. News is intentionally distancing the whole thing about TV is and that's why they hate it. When I did good morning America she said can you put the microphone downing? Oh I mean it's like no I'm talking. Well I did but it's like come on you guys anyway. That didn't air because the virus I hear. There's something going on so Larry Alaron another time. I hope sometime Google finally did get a cove in nineteen page up. Not The one. The president was touting has anyone every time. I click on it Got Dog hair in my lipstick. Gross okay that might be TMI. I'm just kidding just kidding. Sorry I haven't seen it yet. Every time I click on it low time is way too long. I don't. You're not missing anything here. Let me let me pull it up. I guess Have it on. I have it on the wrong computer even the computer in front of maybe is this. It is Google trend page. No maybe I have the wrong one. It's the like when I go to my news. Section Corona Virus Cove in nineteen. Get the latest information in. It's just I click that button and it's just well that's one thing that is happening everywhere we're talking about this Earlier today Microsoft Azure in Europe is struggling youtube in many of the streaming services have had to cut bandwith way down for that reason. I mean it's really a you know this is unanticipated traffic? I have data. Would you like it? Data yes all right. Hold on I will get it to you here. We go and here while you're while getting it and getting the hair out of your lipstick here is this is the Goo Google Kovic nineteen information and resources. This is not the site that president trump was touting which was the testing testing site That site is up. Also it's from verily Google Verily Google alphabets health branch and it's just for Santa Clara and San Mateo counties. It's not a national test site and Nationally now it's pointless because you can't get a test and you should probably shouldn't get test unless you are a hospital in. We can all GET TESTS BREAST ISOLATE TRACK. That is the only strategy is going to test isolate track over right now. We're only because that's all we have we. We didn't invest in the US. We don't have the mechanisms to track the Germany. The feral NGOs swabs are made in Lombardy Italy. The whole nine masks are made in Wuhan China. It's not just the tests. It's the protective gear you have to use to give the tests Of course if in a perfect world everyone would have a test you could isolate it. You could contain it. But we're way beyond that point at this point at this point you know. I asked my doctor early on. Can I get what are you? Are you crazy? Basically said what are you crazy. No Iceland if you'RE ICELAND THAN YOU. Ideally we would test absolutely everywhere. And then you then you and track of course who have it. And that's the only way to really contain this and this is going to go in way eventually count against. We're going to get it again eventually. I hope we do have that capability. But it's more than just having the tests available I'm search for Google for Google or anybody who put up a sign saying well. Here's how you get a test is is silly because you can't. There's GonNa be a devil's advocate. I would actually like a test. So I know if I'm one of the people who've had it and can then hopefully go back out without infecting people. Yes of course serum tests so this'll serum test. I would love enough tests. That of course you could get tested on the regular but right now because there's a limit such limitations on the stuff The tests are giving being given most appropriately to people who are sick. And and that's I don't know how that when that's going to change it so making a site it would be foolish to make a site that says well. You could get a test. Are you sick? Maybe a site that helps you Diagnosed if you're ill or or not. And there's quite a few factors. Google page has some of that we were talking earlier. I got one of those Smart thermometers they're talking about a lot on the news that Kinshasa health thermometer and it does it kind of does that. It was originally in fact you said your school district had yes so. I actually talked to the CEO. I did an interview with him. Back in two thousand fifteen. He was on my podcast In the whole they used to give the thermometers cheaper version of two Persians to schools. Did and Austin with a couple of schools in the idea was when parents took the temperature they could in the APP like you're showing they would see like oh there's a lot of strep throat going around. Here's you could look at that. And say hey. A lot of other people have a fever. Here's what it might be based on the reports back from other users so it was like a crowd source. It was like ways for illness and the guy actually has a great story he was like it was either accenture. Mckinsey consultant but he ended up going to Africa and he was frustrated because he was part of one of the Clinton Can't remember it was malaria or not a Clinton a disease initiative and he realized that there was absolutely no way to track diseases. And that's actually why he created this so you could get epidemiology epidemiological information ahead of time. So you could actually like remember when Google came out with their flu data and we're all like yeah that's useful and then the next year it turned out that it was not actually is accurate. The temperature and thermometer was actually accurate. So the that's why he did this. And then all into tracking this he does sell or Kenza does sell the data that they're gathering on a wide scale. They sell it in aggregate to advertisers or advertisers. That's advertisers based on Zip Code. In so what happens is you can say. I want to advertise my my clorox wipes I snake oil whatever in ZIP codes. That are having problems right now. So they do do that but it is anonymous. Seems Okay do you is. Is THAT THE NEW YORK? Times to destroy a year and a half ago getting antsy about it and of course you know what I said right. I did let me ask you this. Stop Stop what if think about like companies like facebook. What if I looked at this and I I don't want to? I want to charge higher insurance rates to people who are more more more sick. Who are ill or if not Kinza data? Maybe it's a smart scale. What if I want to charge? What if I don't want to advertise jobs to people in these codes? Because they know they're less healthy so long you're right. That's a problem with the law. Okay I want to bring that. Like sure sounds totally innocuous. When you're like yeah I would love to as Clorox to be like. Hey there's this massive wave of disease coming your way scrub up. Yeah I mean so. There's some uses in there would be some commercial uses. It would be less than I'm putting you in Bedminster is that Okay Jeff. Wan Don't tell where he's not town. Should I put you in? It's fine okay. I'm in basking Ridge. I don't have room for that. I barely have to find Bainbridge island. I'm just GONNA put New Jersey Nj and then you got a problem with that W. A. N. N. J. Maybe I'll do that. I'm I'm working on. Our lower thirds attracted lower. What was happening. Ross Stacey Stacey. That's the problem. Why was the problem anyway? Germany Loenen datelines Germany is the Coke Institute which is not the Cox of Cokes of America. It's a famous scientist so it's basically the CDC of Germany. They put out a call to hire five thousand Containment scouts they call it. This is Germany land of Dot Richardson. Privacy right yeah. And and so. They're they're they`re. They had ten thousand applicants. They're going to hire them and they're going to when when they get to the point where they have enough testing and you said. Oh Yeah I just got it and they say who all did you see last week's can you tell us everybody? We'RE GONNA CALL EVERYBODY. That's down at the no way down the road from well known now in someplace where they've contained it it's it says were privacy gets the way too so so in various offices. Now I'll make anonymous Some people are known to have tested positive or known to have had the symptoms out here. And what they're doing is they're saying to people we can't tell you who because of privacy and hip and all that but if you WANNA get a test you gotta say who you were exposed to. That had it. You know because won't tell you who the office you don't know how close your exposure was. There's a limit to privacy and we're reaching it and we're going to have these debates right now. So here's what I would like part of this debate. I think that yes during a pandemic we need to have track and trace becomes incredibly important but this is what I would love to see. It needs to be of limited duration right and while. I acknowledged that this data would be incredibly useful for study later on. I think study of that data should only go to public health agencies and universities and there should be an I. R. B. Component later to using it and companies should not get this data and keep it for themselves so google may want to use it and there may be a really compelling case because they could do better research because more money and funding and whatnot. But they shouldn't have it Into use it. You have to pass stringent you have to really show legitimate research interests. I guess would be the way of all sorts are going to want to see the tracking of how the disease goes. There's there's one called Lord now. Let's go back in time let's talk about typhoid Mary. It's a good thing that typhoid Marys. Privacy was not protected right here. This woman who was she was a cook. She was giving typhus to People near New York City right and they call her typhoid Mary because she was patient. Zero for a typhus epidemic. It's important to isolate that person. And I mean. Does she have a privacy right in that case? I guess she does for. You shouldn't have her name in the newspaper but public health officials should absolutely no. She is as employers. Yeah well isn't it? I mean we're all types. Mary now well no most of US hotel. We don't have testing. I mean so. Ideally we'd have testing so we'd all be like I'm typhoid. Mary was so two questions. Because I'm in my twitter feed with all these uppity meteorologists. I'm reading about the data that they want. Now they want it and it's fascinating so two questions one. Singapore now has an APP. China obviously had APPS. Curry's doing this now. Israel's joins us that's right so in the in the crisis. How comfortable are we with having with being? Let's say required to have an APP And you can see. The negative side of this is to have the disease. But the positive side is though they're certified to have the antigens they took the serum test and they're and they're they're they have immunity and they can work But you're you're gonNA WANNA certify that in some way What are the laws around that that we need to craft so that we can have more freedom as a result of this data and more help and for the data but restricted to us? So we need to make sure that this data is I would limit the ways it can be used to discriminate against people so there are ways like being sick. Obviously if you're sick stay home right. So there are countries that are using that to like basically the the China like green means. You can go anywhere red. Means you can't write. The newest thing is the APP says Knows who you've had come into contact with right and that in insane that you've come. I mean in some ways it matters like in your office. Baby it matters. I mean a ticket in Israel. They're using it to notice Groups a lot of movement out of the House that they're using it to police work from home and they're also looking for larger groups. You can see the value of this public health point of view should we? The larger question is should individual liberties put on hold during a health crisis. They can be temporarily so I think temporarily in. I'm not talking. Lake sunset after a very narrowly defined order that gets reauthorized every thirty days Unlike the Patriot. Act where we react to nine eleven by rescinding rights forever in perpetuity. Well it does. It does expire but it just keeps getting renewed a brief quick sunset. The difference there is you could reasonably say well. There's still a terrorist threat. I'm not I'm done those who still going. Sorry but yes right before. Our eyes exactly. So you have to define the steps that would say hey this is ineffective as long as X. percentage of the population is infected or until vaccines or until like pick your ABC clauses. There you would also have to say that that data that is collected through these APPs goes into a lock box that can only be accessed by people with a legitimate research interest Certain terms of handling right than secure handling. And that's what I would say if you don't eat those you don't get access to this data so if the police are like and I would even stipulate that like maybe crimes are happening in this time and baby five months now for now the police are like hey remember that rash of pandemic lootings. Let's Go see who those people were? This could not be used for them up all right. Here's another question. Let me it'll be up again. One if the government gave absolutely everyone in the country a biometric bracelet and timely required them to wear it. Well the good news is you don't have to because we all have smartphones but okay all stipulate. The APP in Singapore believe it may be saint part. Maybe Israel. If you don't have your phone with you it tells on you so I think you could probably put it on your own inhabit tattle on your behalf biometric that we're also check your temperature. I'm wearing a this. Is the aura ring. This was a sponsor for a long time. This get one. Yeah they're awesome and it doesn't study right now. Did you know that in the study with? Ucsf every day. I get from aura a questionnaire to answer for UCSF but besides measuring heart. You know the obvious stuff heart rate and exercise and stuff measures temperature and it gives me so I I am take my temperature just because I want an early warning sign but it will tell me if I look at my aura. You on my own APP. It will show my By temperature going up or going down and that's also part of overall readiness. So I can look at my readiness and I could see my body temperature and if it starts and I by the way I was wearing this I got sick. I think last year and you can see as As the illness progresses your temperature going up as your body correct right. Now it's pretty. It's holding pretty steady. So this doesn't this shows not your absolute temperature but the change in body temperature day by day which is at all. I think yeah interesting. Yeah so this is a whole now wearing my similar every night to sleep really. Is that for the or no well? It's for for for What you call it Oh seep sleep apnea yeah so I've I've been diagnosed but I don't believe the diagnosis fully and I'm trying to trying to judge what it is and But IT'S FASCINATING TO WATCH THE O. Two and see what the Stacey? You've got more data on this. I can't I can't find any good resource. London says what normal or expected is on this. I'm talking about this before. Oh to yeah for your oxygen sleepy blue. Oh well it's they're looking at variations is what they're doing they're looking at it. Going temperature they want to ninety to ninety two is usually when they start going. Oh that's not enough. I can send you off back. I've got a sleep study results and I can share stuff and that's really interesting. Covert hid at an interesting technological. Monja where we have. We have all these biometric devices we We have been working from home. We have the capability we have teams and Skype and and and slack and it's really And we and thank goodness. We have Netflix and Amazon. Prime to it's really an interesting moment in time And I think it's very clear that we've got a lot to think about. And that's kind of. I think this show is is ending up talking a lot about that. I really like the we have the opportunity you know. Tests are nice but what if you knew fever temperatures you know we would know what the diseases but you'd see in. This map does show abnormal or atypical. Temperature increases so if I click the atypical but on this You can see there some hot spots here like Weld County Colorado and much of Florida Florida's unbelieving look where it is. It's on the beach right. What else that's not much of a surprise right after spring break? You also look at Louisiana and you could see that you know There's going to raise worried there. There's going to be problems. Colorado Denver. I don't know I don't know so what's interesting is. This is data that isn't related to testing or even hospital. This is this. Is You know you could see this is Kens. Yeah yeah so I mean. It's any fevers. So that's right normal flu Kobe. Strip right but they also. They know what's typical because they've been doing this for some time and they know typical so you know yeah. We are having a particularly bad flu season. So that's somewhat of the issue but the Brown in California. It's good it's normal. It's not yeah and so They they're always feverish on the west coast. it's actually Less illness in In Our county and that Tim he I feel like this is because in California. We sheltered in place early. But I don't know I mean I'm not a scientist so I I don't know how you interpret it but for for New York versus New Jersey. That was interesting you can you? consume in Zuma. This is not having a good geography. There's Queens which is a hot spot and of course Manhattan Here's Hudson County New Jersey. Bergen County be. These are already county. Bob Yeah and so that's Manhattan. And so you could see. Manhattan is I'm in Somerset County. Can you go west a Little Bit Essex? More down donnels note right there. Yeah Yeah those are. The illness trend decreased by four point. Four three percents. So your high. But it's too crazy is to be worse. Used to be worse. I think what you're seeing a little bit in this. Is this shelter in place stuff working right? Oh Yeah Oh absolutely. I don't know I mean look I'll leave it to somebody with better brains and me to interpret it but I think what's interesting is that this exists It's been around for some years What if it is being driven by a bunch of people who are worried about Cova coming in and taking their temperature when they feel bad that's fine because SMI different because well that's why you need them. You have to have lots of bright you also need. We need laws. That say you can't get fired because you your temperature was high. You can't lose your insurance because temperature was high. We've got to protect people in those ways right well. The challenge with that is people will continue to find new ways to infer and make insights from this data. So do you write laws that try to get ahead of each one of those actions before or after they start like doing the database redlining for lack of a better term or? Do you create guardrails around how the data can be used in the first place. I think stacy you build with principles rather than trying to anticipate every possible use of the data or hold it you say there are principles and the principles are that you know. I think the sickness should be freedom of keeping your job and not losing. Your insurance from illness should just be a principal and wherever the threat comes from. Then you're you're a better position because you set that principles of law okay. I would also have agreement I wrote about this last week in. I'm going to ask you to to highlight it because it ties to what we're talking about In this is if you go to my site Leo. It's a now is the time to build a connected medical device framework. The reason is because people I really respect. They wrote an article in nature and in that article they talk about creating a five level framework for remote monitoring There there's there's Kevin Kinza. Yeah that's great I agree with you a hundred percent. I think that that is the community right now subscribing already. It's okay I don't know entry makes me keep it Scroll down just a little bit. Because of this they have connected sensor facts Attritional this would be something you would see on on your device to know how and they're calling for so they're calling for five days so validation so are there peer reviewed papers and clinical trials for each device saying hey they're measuring the right thing to like diagnose disease. The next level of the Framework is security practices by secure. The next is data rates in governance. So who gets your data? Is that clear to people blah blah blah the final two usability and utility. This is important for lake can like somebody. Who's not technically savvy even used this rate. Does your doctor need to be doing support calls and then price. How does price is really fun? Because depending on who pays for it the value really can can go either way right so you might have insurance. Companies interests ahead of a consumer's interest in this case but the point is like show people exactly what this looks like this from an article in nature. Is this being proposed? So this is the FDA on Friday basically said that they're going to allow remote monitoring but it has none of this. None of these. This is and so it's a proposal by a group of people some who worked for the FDA some of who are very good security experts very well respected so. This is a proposal. The article is so long. You guys I know my articles long but the nature article is incredibly long. But it's really excellent and it's how I should be thinking about this so I encourage people to weigh in on this because I think it's it's crucial up there it is. I would really love to see this effect. This makes so much sense. I feel like it's never going to happen but it's just so obvious right. It's such a great idea. Well it it's not just a great idea. It's really necessary for us to build trust in this kind of system. Because you have a lot of people you're asking them to give data. That is deeply personal. I mean Jeff may have gone on the air talking about Eighth Eb. But if he didn't want to it's not like he'd feel comfortable with that kind of labels on food so much because perfect sense to have it on medical devices connected medical devices. Especially can I also re up from last week My twitter list. Yes we try the way twitter list. I recommend it on the radio show. I said everyone should go to twitter. Dot Com Slash Jeff Jarvis and subscribe Allah through email through the Ui. So it's now up to more than five hundred experts and I. I'm finding absolutely invaluable. The other thing that happened in the last week is twitter came to be ask for help in getting scientists verified. And so I've I've helped so far about one hundred of them and they're doing more and because the and of course some dorks have come to be people out there don't do this could be verified through no are you a scientist risking your life or doctors from smart people. I write about Kobe Apple. This was a medium piece by a guy said. Well I grow I. My job is Viral growth hacking. You saw this viral growth hacking. So I know a little bit about how viruses propagate so I'd like to spout off about cove it and he and medium took that down. Did they could. They took it down as I wrote about this. I have a post About about expertise experts. That was the ultimate now. Just quoted have that full quote in that Post Oak. It's If you go to mediums there The trump we don't have somebody else to look this stuff. I'M NOT I. Actually you know this but I actually do do it. That's why I'm sitting in front of that big computer Our RTD does pulling up this stuff as we go. Yeah Yeah so yeah was ridiculous quote from the guy quickly and and people went berserk but then look at the medium piece medium. Took it down. The New York Times had a piece by a guy named Davis who was saying well. It's not that bad contrarian piece we'll be okay differ methods which even the president is now quoting and the experts at my feet. Berserk about it. That's why that feed. Yeah because this guy Where which which article. Which article should be just be going? Medium slashed up draws not at paying member of medium. Though shouldn't be it should be shown so hold on Maybe if I follow you so frogs birds I see it here. It is cyber expert sets up him. So if you scroll down there's a block quote with that quoted the can also look at the facts here about the other one. Does people who I recommend Harpo. Jeez screw you have to pay five bucks for medium. I'm sorry I just won't do it. Yeah I pay a lot more for Bloomberg and I play a lot more for other things but I won't. I can't bring myself to pay for them. I just put the friendly. You know. It's not that's the wrong one. Hold Dory worry about it all right. I got an up so I can read it. That was the point Supposed to bring it up so you can read it. That was the point. Well you're always faster than I am. So this is this is what the heck I'm quite experienced and understanding veracity. How things grow and Data Gov vocation? I'm most known for popularizing. The quote growth hacking movement in Silicon Valley that specializes in driving rapid in viral adoption of technology products. That's when I stayed at his data. Our focus your treatment but numbers. You don't need a special degree to understand what the data says. It doesn't say numbers are universal evening. this guy was just awful medium. Took it out good. So meanwhile the Times has one that has similar contrarian. Things used to be associated with Yale. But he's a sugar Schill and he's a member of the Advisory Board for the California Walnut Board. They say it had more walnuts the New York Times to chose to give this major thing. Which now the president and others. According and so- Greg Gonzalez. Who's a brilliant guy at? Yale who's really at Yale Consol vets. Go NSA lvs look up twitter? He just went properly Berserk on this. And then on Brad Stevens who quoted the same thing and then on Tom Friedman quarter of the two of them and you have what they call armchair FDR epidemiologists. That's right Stacey. It's a hard word to say you stumbled before Who numbers I can look at these numbers to an epidemiologist are just bloody brilliant. And they they have experienced that matters and we don't listen to people like me. People listen to the scientists listened to the experts. Doctors Barale Gis people who know what they're talking about journalists. Don't we find experts? Yeah Find the people who matter and and and we've got him out there now. They're talking directly to the public on on the web. It's a wonderful things. Once one thing this shows is that this is it. This is water cooler conversation. And we've always had this. A humans have always done this. You know I talked to my buddy Joe and he says and we and we kind of it's kind of like gossip it's It's how we deal with anxiety. It's how we look for information and avoid We've always done this but now we have these tools that can make water cooler conversation. Give it more weight because it's published online and then unfortunately we have a government where they embrace this the they also like us share water cooler conversation. We expect them to have a higher standard but they don't and But I think he's a natural human. I mean we do it to some extent we all. Yeah Yeah you can call them the experts now. I can go on my list now and I can ask them a question. Can you explain that to me? And they're busy trying to save lives and I don't WanNa get in their way but they will take a moment to make sure they. They want people to get this right right. The experts are there and they're easy to find. Yeah if you sign up for Jeff's list and sign up for. That was the whole point of that. Usually this thing that kind of floats down Andrew could help you and just says sign up for my list. That was the believe laying all my posts on my posts are also on buzzmachine cut so I I put them over there. I don't have to pay five dollars to read. Com- BUZZMACHINE DOT COM thank you. I believe it's in your lower. Yes I wanted to just kind of goes serio so so the other for my walk which I'm trying to do every day now. I didn't take as many damn calls when I went for a walk out. I'm walking along and there's a guy looks about my age. Who goes zooming by on a electric scooter And then he comes back and he says are you Jeff Jarvis and I said Yeah and of course. He's a Fan Nice. I'LL DO THE O. Eill the shows and George who works audible came back by. We had a nice little chat six feet apart. Oh that's great but it's we've lived half mile each other for God knows how many years all the time I've been on the show and we didn't know it until he came by because we're opened up. This is what you're saying before. There are things we should take advantage of in this weird time. I also steer you to a guy I've known for years Vince Rennell who is a virologist and actually hosts a really good podcast that is very timely right now this week in urology he named it kind of and maybe even looks a little bit like the twitter well. That's Okay Vincent. I know Jason. Yeah yeah come on. No it's great and it's a really useful So I don't know how well known This is a lot of twitter fans know about it because it kind of ran parallel to to it for a long time but if that's all they're talking about. I'm actually and I bet you stacey you are too fascinated now by viruses The the viruses are very interesting. Little beasts aren't they they are. Yeah that's one of the reasons why I wanted to be a genetic engineer. I Love I love. I never knew organisms. Oh Yeah Oh man. Biology was my first love. There is a A great video which Steve Gibson recommended. It's a it must be German. Because it's a it's a youtube video the translates to nutshell and I highly recommended on the corona virus and its mechanism. And it's pretty easy to understand. Let me let me pull it up for you. Have It on my I have a whole I already. I already had listen. Yeah he's there he's there he's yeah he's a he's very good analyst. Yes I have a A whole page says my my Cova nineteen pages including our temperatures my journal of the plague year links and so forth. But here's this video Yeah I think you would think you would like this. It's a scout. Yeah Yeah I think it's a German Hillary. Go to the Youtube page because I can see his You would you would recognize this word Jeff. It's it's Kurz Kurz Kazakh te in another former student of mine. This looks like the this looks like the style of a former student of mine. No kidding. It's beautifully illustrated and he talks about you. Know one of the reasons that corona virus is so susceptible soap and water is is it as like I think all viruses it has a lipid shell fat Shell And so that of course as you know. That's what soap does is. It breaks down fat And so it's really cute little video. I think suitable for the whole family. Because it's so colorful but it's as far as I can tell very accurate scientifically and it It's Really well done. I think you know you see my favorite handwashing video the black Goo on the on the On Yeah isn't that good? Yeah that's the best. Yeah so but yeah. I've gotten very interested in this whole thing. And of course there is some some speculation. Because what a virus does it. Injects its are in a into a host cell and gets an tricks. The hotel transcribing it and making more of the virus Thinking it's reproducing itself. There's some evidence that these that this this viral are in a has something to do with our own evolution. That that without it we might not have evolved or it's certainly it's affected our own DNA. So I think that's kind of there's IT'S A. It's a more symbiotic relationship than one would think and I I find it fascinating. Yeah not all viruses have lipid membranes. Okay thank you and they call. I didn't know this. The Corona Virus. The Coronas little spikes on the outside of the virus. That's why Flus a corona virus and that's how it It takes a spike. It goes into the cell. Says HERE HAS A. That's my crown. That's it's crown is a crown with spikes all right back to back to Google According to Dr Moebius your DNA is mostly indigenous retroviruses. So thank you very much Amazon interesting what? Amazon's up to actually there's this is that larger story which is And I'm you know how I like to bring up philosophical topics on this show. Some have said that the tech industry is taking advantage of this and of course we know the DOJ is trying to take advantage of it as well This is an opportunity for the tech industry. Become even more powerful. I think it was an editorial in The New York Times. Even more powerful Amazon apple bound in The Atlantic cafe the Atlanta. Okay yeah could be Atlantic's been doing some really good stuff on this. Yeah pay for them. I do And they're put all their. Kobe praised them. Even though there's all my outside the pay all their coleman stove outside the paywall on that may be decided to try. A lot of people are doing that I think the Atlantic is spectacular. Yeah Julia Carrie Wong. It's in the Guardian Which also is putting its All its covert stuff. Well it's doesn't have a pay wall How the corona viruses created a governance vacuum. The tech giant Amazon is quickly filling. It's calling up love this lead. It's calling up. One hundred thousand troops extending grants to small businesses prioritizing essential goods and cracking down on profiteers no not the US federal government Amazon. It's doing the things that a government might do And it's not just Amazon. Walmart's hiring one hundred fifty thousand new workers What she what she says is It's less and less far fetched to imagine the everything store becoming the only store this is. This is something I've been thinking about because I don't know about you guys but with Amazon. Having delivery issues I just switched to target to buy some things that I needed. I'm not getting to shipping. But I am getting my stuff. Let's see you Amazon's prioritizing only essential so if you WANNA get a Christmas. We could order any cameras for hosts or headsets because they won't come till next month yeah. I ordered something on target. That will get to me on the thirtieth so that's four or five days from now Which feels totally reasonable Not so bad as Kim. I'm picking different retailers so the for a long time it's true my gut response was. Oh I need this. Let's go get it on Amazon and I'm like oh I need this. Let's put it on another. Are you worried that this will adjust? Increase the dominance of the tech giant's And they will just take advantage of this or I for one. Welcome my new lords and Masters I. I think they're being smart. I think there's a couple of things here. They're being smart to be like. Oh it's GonNa be a lot harder to hate us after we donate all our masks but we do after we but I do think that they're in a position to help there also in a position to profit from this and I think smart business dictates that you would take these opportunities as does compassion and I do think. The Tech Industry likes to consider itself Compassionate in ways that I don't think Exxon Mobil deludes itself into thinking so they're losing money to reinstall so there's a story in the rundown that that they're going to lose is not the right word. Forty four billion in anadromous versus the growth is going to have so it's not like they lose money but they're but they're yeah well they're they're losing. The opportunity cost of losing an opportunity at the same time. Facebook is up for all those who think off as a well. Look where you need him. Now folks the traffic there is up fifty percent. This is keeping their nose above water. This is a fine and good thing on twitter but like Stacey In this respect I don't use facebook but I'm finding many other ways so it isn't it doesn't necessarily create a dominant force just like you using target instead of Amazon I'm using facetime or Or what's well what's absent is what's happened is still facebook but no they're plenty of other options and I don't use any of the facebook tools and I don't feel less any less connected although can I tell you the like probably a week ago android. I were hiking and I was like Dang it everyone should probably get a portal and then the buzzfeed story about F. You should get a portal and the fact that they're sold out facebook video portal. Yes the Oh you could make bank. Getting rid of your. Where's my portal? I have two of them. I think I let burke take him apart which means they're probably not very cheap so but the idea like when it came out. I did think the portal has a really interesting hardware like that using the AI to follow people automatically is really compelling museum. Now does that by the way right but so so I I do with my daughter. Because she's on Andrew facetime with my mom. 'cause she's in an iphone. I don't feel like I need a portal. You my father who's ninety four who basically doesn't use a computer at all and would never use a smartphone. Gets the best sent him. A coastal display or Google display nest nest hole. Max would be fine to either one of those I can. I set it up here for entirely beforehand because it's got to have a wife's go join us but I know his WIFI password. No won't do it unless you're on that network you have to spend. I can't change. My wife is white so this sometimes get I. Did this actually to get into my Tesla. Once it didn't work theoretically could change your ssid on your phone to his home. Ssi and then change the password on your phone. Use Your phone as a hotspot. Set it up to him and it would just plug in join his network. You'd have to have a g mail account so you'll have to set up a g mail account for him but then you call him by his G. Milk caps. Same thing with the caveat I will give. You is do that the last step because I know that if I have left my google thing unplugged from a Wifi network for a long time and that was like two weeks. I think it was it. Did want me to reset it up. Can I don't know how long that is? And then trump says it goes by MAC address. I don't think you're right. Ps Chops because I routinely change routers. I'm trying different brands of Of Routers I always give them the same name. Which is why. My Orbi is now named plume because because it's always plume and Even though it's not a physical plume and it doesn't it says I. We're on the same Wifi as long as the sids password or the same. I don't think it's looking a MAC address. I know none of my dress. That's okay so it didn't wet my echo. All my devices in my google home devices will just kindly join the network regardless of what actual device? Oh sorry I just got an update that I asked for. I don't think they did it because I asked for. But I'm very excited. My Thermo Mex- would if I would turn it on but I'm too scared to use it so get on it. I keep thinking. Oh this is the perfect time. I'm stuck at home. I should watch all those videos. Let's take a break before stacey hits me you know you can't hit me in this office. Actually you're a little closer. You probably could just give me a his shot. I was like I could sneeze. I knew I to Jeff Excellent. We'll have more with stacy and Jeff in just a bit but first word from our sponsor I showed a brought to you by worldwide technology. It was actually worldwide. Technology has a soft spot in my heart was the last time I got an airplane for some time. We flew out to Saint Louis a couple of weeks ago to see their advanced technology center. 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Wwe trusted partner had been with you over the years They set the ATC upper initially so that their engineers could spin up proofs of concept or pilot projects for customers this ATC is where there's and I met a bunch of engineers affect the number of people came up to me said Leo. I'm doing this because a U. I used to watch you on the screen savers or whatever and I just feel like I was at home. It was really really cool. We took a tour of the ATC. They what's really cool about it? Is they have all this gear. And of course they're engineers use it but you can too you can too as wwe customer. They have on demand and schedule Bowl. Labs or workshops like this invidia deep learning workshop hundreds of labs in fact representing the latest in architectural solutions to accelerate customers on ai and their machine learning journey a whole lot more. You can learn about these products before you launch. You could try before you buy if you're getting a system you can integrate it into your existing system to see how it works You they have more than just these. They have articles and case studies. You can find it all at. Www DOT com slash twit. All the tools you need to make a difference in today's very fast pace. Enterprise World Lab is a service is something. They started this past summer. It's a dedicated lab space within the. Atc where you can perform your own programmatic testing on anything in that vast ecosystem that have billion dollar ecosystem and because it's virtual you don't have to go to Saint Louis nowadays. That's probably okay. You don't WanNa get on an airplane. You can do it from where you are and you can do it anytime of the day or night. Twenty four seven this is where W W J engineers or Beta testing new solutions based on the latest and greatest video technologies building reference architectures custom integrations. Wwe's new digital platform creates a multiplier effect of knowledge speed and agility anytime anywhere around the world for you for your their customers. All of that's available to you right now but you gotta if you're not a customer yet sign up right now. Www DOT com slash twit. Create the account. You'll get access to all of that stuff all the white paper you can just browse through it and see. It's amazing Ww T- simplifies the complex worldwide technology www dot com slash twit really in the company www dot com slash twit wwe delivering business and technology outcomes around the world. Business Does Not Stop during cove in Nineteen W. W. T. Is there for you? Www DOT com slash. Twit and. I think they're helping a lot of people right now. Get their work from home solutions up. They helped design APPs. They help Work with things like Cisco's Webex to get you set up and gets you running This is this is when you're glad you've got WWe partner www dot com slash twit. We are too. I have to say I'm really a big Fan Really Nice people to ww dot com slash twit. Thank you W. W. T. back to my father. Wwe Call would be. Yeah they get. They get carpenter built a little box for the desktop MACs. I do that with my mom. what I like to do is She likes to be in the kitchen while I'm cooking so I'll set up the I use the ECHO. Show she has an echo show and she's just sitting there and I could talk to her and I'm stirring than stuff and it's really fun. Actually that's who I should do. The thermo mix with she'd be fascinated by that. She introduced me queasy. Twenty five years ago Stacey I could do it with stacey she would say out of my way and let me add it all right moving right along. Let's see how we kind of drifted we really do. We saw we we went. We drifted Amazon Prime Video Netflix. A lot of others had data for you. Yes data let me. Let me ask you So this is like come to be data. So this is from the Frankfurt the Frankfurt's Internet exchange is the largest Internet exchange out. We were talking about how Azure Microsoft azure is struggling under the load in Europe. Yeah Yeah So. Since the outbreak of the Cova nineteen virus they assign a one hundred percent increase in video conferencing. Traffic's that is just video conference track thick. They are also seeing video. Conferencing providers take more ports in their exchange so boosting capacity overall average data. Traffic has increased by about ten percent. People are online more and longer Cloudflare cloudflare has reported a twenty to forty percent increase in internet traffic for the US. When I talked to comcast last week they were doing okay. They were like we build for peak. Now we're seeing peak for longer times but we were still it's still okay I know that I read a story in wired that quoted Dane Jasper talking about adding capacity. But they were our guy. He's the CEO of Sonic. That are are Internet service provider Love Day. So what's happening is a lot of most. Isp's they have capacity upgrade plans already. So what's happening is usually. They anticipated being. You know they. They do it when they hit. A certain percentage of capacity somewhere between sixty and seventy percent usually what happens is they're reaching those capacities more frequently and upgrading. But they still. It's not it's not like a scramble. They just implement the plan again. So it's going to cost them more but it's not like they're running out of Internet if that makes sense well that's it's so weird to think of it but of course like everything at some point you run out of Internet. I mean at some point. They will run out of servers. We have I mean if you look at the places where we're going to see where there's theoretical slowdowns you have the subsea cables right now like X. percentage of many subsea cables or dark Tele geographies dark fiber out. There we could. With other words we have room to expand. Yes so you would add what you would add is like Had One of those things wave wavelength there whole. I cannot think of the name of the equipment that you put each end of your subsea cable to add more capacity on those actual fibers. That are dark. You're literally lighting up that cable You add capacity by adding servers in the Big Internet exchanges. For example you can add servers at your central office. So you can add of locally So they're still they're still capacity. You'll see like residential broadband. You'll see your engineers from your ISP's it's cable what they're gonNa do is from the splitting the note. That is where they go out to your premise and they'll basically cut in half the number of households that are served by each no No no that's good. They have enough bandwidth roll. What they're doing all right. Cut My ben within half what. Yeah she say. They cut the number of houses on your node in half so many people are using the same capacity in that case. That's that's what they they split the note that's how they and then they bring in more to the head end for the other half well they bring they bring another piece of equipment out to serve those other homes and so there's this big cabinets and I'm sure you've seen them Around your neighborhoods and telecom cabinets or the cable cabinets cable cabinets are usually those Boxes that are stuck in the ground in so that's where this splitting the note in the cable case is taking place in the telecom cabinets Is it your? You're I believe I was like it's been a long size like that. Hurts to love the D slam. It's all about these slam. Yes so that's where they're that's where they're they're basically adding capacity usually slot in new cards and then they hook them up. I don't WanNa get into like because depending on your network architecture. It's a little bit different but and I'm not a super expert. I'm obviously not somebody out there at the cabinet. Although I do bug that when I see them I'm like can I look inside and see what do you do it? What do I do that too? It's so funny with the Cable Guy. Hates me I do. What do you want while tidewater actually knew who I was and they would like either decide to talk or not? Talk to me depending on how they felt. That's hysterical. Oh that's oops I didn't mean to press a button I turn blue. Oh I guess. Murph turned blue. I didn't want to be blue again. Oh not not that blue. That's Murphy. So yeah they don't understand about this. I turned you all blue for age. I'm clicking things I just. Don't mind me my me. Little knowledge dangerous thing as we all use the Internet. Like crazy at work isn't isn't isn't there. A CONCOMITANT DECREASE IN USE AND COMPANIES. Make all kinds of huge. I don't understand why there's problems throughout Europe is it just nighttime in net flicks. What is well a I mean? There's there's a couple of things so schools for example being online and taking your in-person meetings entertainment. Virtual art are different rate. Video calls people at home. You know I think one thing office is to is everybody goes home and then they all are running hangouts or something twenty four hour. Well twelve hours a day so that everybody can be together. There's a lot more use right. And that's why Netflix and Amazon prime and Youtuber cutting the bandwidth that they're using on their streams in Europe. I don't know why Europe is. So why aren't we more? I I wondered about that. I'm guessing there's a couple of things. Europe doesn't have a lot of cable operators so they don't have ms as many MS owes. They also have in many places there. Fiber does not extend as far as so. They've got fiber to the node as opposed to fiber to the premise and when you're dealing with DSL and copper It's very hard to upgrade copper. There's there's big limitations on this we're not gonna get into that science but So I think that might be an issue. The other thing I was going to say is your work. Networks and your residential networks are different. So think about when you're provisioning network if you know there's a multi thousand employees office space your provisioning way more capacity for that network and you can't because there's still physical infrastructure that it has to go over so like the nodes I was talking about the actual copper wires or fiber. You can't transit. It's not a transferable the bits are not transferable. I guess back that capacity Roy residential or so. It may cause localized problems. It's not it's not like there's a loss of all capacity in Europe in. I don't know yeah and then. There's upload and download speeds so that's the other thing with video most most residential connections are not sink there a synchronous synchronous out what the word I'm looking for it. They're you've got you know. Three hundred megabits download symmetric. Thank you like. What is the word used it before? Yeah symmetric in. So when you're doing things like video you actually need to much more symmetrical connection. So You pointed Upload Yakisoba say upload so so those are I don't specifically know what Europe's issues are because I haven't I haven't covered broadband in Europe really much but also had an interesting conversation with a with a German yelling at me on twitter because I when announced her changes. She limited no meetings of more than two people thought. Oh Wow good turns out that was in outside. You can still go to work. You still store wait a minute. Yes outside but inside. It's fine inside eggs Edwards is still gonNA store. Exactly I was. I was making fun of come on his Mickelson and the jury will you don't understand. I Know Germany better the new Jeff. Of course you do your German. I'm not and and we don't have the computers at home and we don't have the work at home that makes sense. Americans. I mean it's been a struggle working from home schooling from home in the states. But maybe not as much as it would be other countries. That's interesting yeah. Hey Watch me do something really fun. Oh in Europe has bad WIFI. That was the other thing. Oh 'cause they're building this kind of a blanket statement. Sorry bill older in have Falls spectrum to propagate ago. America's built on Drywall. Europe's built on stone. Yes that's the difference and now ladies and gentlemen it's time let's see if I can get it done. Oh for the Google change long polar do but I would never say that I just went shopping booth to know that and we'd never call you grab grandfather. Yeah I got a little heat for our show title last week. Boom right boomer room over yeah cranky email. I did but if you listen to the show you know we were just having fun with your daughter who calls cove in one thousand nine hundred. Here's friends boomer. Remover and AS Roma's friends. It's it's okay for us to do that because we are. We are boomer. We are boomers we can do that. Oh Oh oh what are you doing? Laos stop it. I have to you know it's one thing to start the Google change log. It's another thing. Was it easier to have the hard switcher panel keyboard thing? I'm doing it this way for so long. Have Okay. They set up a bunch of macro for many years ago and the keys. So I don't even know how to do it On a I know actually the boards easier because there's buttons and stuff and I could this way I'm having I'm having to click with the mouse this law. But let's get to the change log and we start with pig. We'd now I have to say this pig is put together by Karston. So let's learn together. It's an open source. Collection of embedded targeted libraries are as we like to call them says Google modules faster developer development for thirty two bit micro controllers the source codes at pig. We'd DOT GOOGLE DOT COM pig. We'd will I guess if you're I don't I don't know maybe it's for Raspberry Pie or the Internet of things. And then you can punt there you go. It's Iot thank you. Why don't you call? What is it it's Iot? Of course it's pig we'd pig we'd passed New Google PODCASTS Redesign on the ANDROID. And it's actually what happened. Is they put it out for IOS. And they had to make feature parody on Android. So now you can. Finally download auto download new shows get new episodes. It's very clean. It's very nice. If you use Google podcasts. I think he will be very happy. Google podcasts updated and I immediately put it on my iphone. And it's it's really quite nice I'll show you you know what I was going to be my pick of the week but I'll show you a little bit later If you use android go Then you might be interested in the new Google Camera. Go which runs on Android Tengo edition so if you have a A inexpensive smartphone. Hmd's the company that's manufacturing Nokia's these days. They announced that Nokia eight point three five point. Three one point three The eight point three and five point three are regular android ten but One point three years running go edition and they have updated the go camera. Go the whole point of go is designed for less expensive handsets. That may not have as much umph. For instance the Nokia one three is running these snapdragon to fifteen and But you can still do things portrait mode which is which is pretty cool so if you have an android device take a look at the new android go camera. Google is removing cody from search results. that's a that's a feature takeaway Cody and VLC. Both removed from Google search following a copyright complaint from Turkish pay TV stir service digital they use the DMC to a takeout. Take down and removed from Google search disturbing sports content the download page for cody which is an open source media player. Yes admitted league is sometimes used for pirated content but not always Searching for cody and Google will still show the links to the official state but it actually blocks the download. That's weird that a Turkish company could do that worldwide worldwide. That's a little little disappointing google. Vlc was on the list. Google flag those your else's incorrect. And so they are still in the search results. It's not clear if this digit this This Turkish company targeted them intentionally because in the past the group has accidentally included one of its own. You are in the takedown. In fact they've done that twice. Okay cody should be back is back. Cody should be back. Google photos has added Text Selection Prompts on mobile and Upload Origin Information on the Web. The held his at me. I don't know so you can now. Oh this is actually good so in the past a lot of these texts on these screens weren't you couldn't select them. But now which means you have lens you can use Google Lens so That's actually a huge a huge deal. Copy text image will appear when Google detects relevant content. So there there it is. You could see in this image on the left. You press copy text from context from image. It'll copy it and let you do a lens search in it. So essentially giving lens access to more content. That's a minor minor update and photos but still a good one we Another cove it delay chrome and chrome? Os mentioned this earlier. Going to skip version. Eighty two the skipper delay. There will not be version. Eighty two. They'RE GONNA go right to eighty three. I guess they're going to banish those swell. Yeah they're going to accept whatever the room whatever. The Roman numerals for eighty eighty three. There was a canary version of the two. That won't be a ex ex ex. I I like it. So here's what Google is going to do. We will abandon current M eighty two branches. Which are in. Dev Remove Infra support and stopped. Testing merges to the branches will not push any newham eighty two releases to Dev. We'll stop stabilization for Beta. We will move deb. Channel M eighty three as sap we will keep Beta channel on. Mad One skip 'em eighty two when MED threes ready road. That's what you'll get on Beta and then eventually that'll make its way to release. I guess this is because it co vid- Yeah that's what they said originally was they were GonNa do this because the covent. Yeah because people not being in the office then security and stopped what they said at the time. Yeah so bug bug fixes. Security fixes other updates to Chrome and chrome Os are going to be delayed. And in fact I don't look for eighty two it'll go right to eighty three I don't know if this is a good thing bad thing but it is in the change log Google's. Ai Helps robots navigate around humans in offices. You preferred them to win over the humans. Well I think it's a small step from running around humans to pausing in front of humans and shooting them dead but I'm I'm maybe I'm a little paranoid. Maybe I'm just a little paranoid The issue is usually when a robot is faced with the human ages stops. It's like I don't know what to do so it's nice go around it human vacuuming vacuuming. Who Does does your I robot. Stop when it sees you know it goes around you because around obstacles I robots old it hits me and then it goes around me up a wall we I we set our I. Robot are Roomba robotic vacuum cleaner to work in the middle of the night which as it turned out was a bad idea. Gough at two in the morning and then it would invariably They're just turned out. There was One side board. That was just high enough for it to get the lip under so the camera got under it but the rest of the couldn't and so it would go poem and I wake up every night. I have it scared me hearing bum bum. God what the Hell is somebody trying to get in and then find the little Roomba little room but trying to jam itself on trying so hard so I picked up two little room pies known little. Rumba put it back in. Its charger and turned it off next morning. Next night AK two. Am bump well. I told you this story so after that happened a few nights I put it away but instead of putting it back on his charger I put it right under. Lisa's tire her left Wheel hoping when she backed out in the morning she put the Little Rhumba out of its misery. She found Put IT BACK. But it's eventually been relegated to the garage so maybe now that the Rumba can steer around humans and and I can bring him back into the house. He's been house broken. You saw by the way a little video there. That's actually part of our news. Google extending Contracts attempts by sixty days which is really great. I think the temptation for a lot of companies is just. Your attempt will let you tell us But Google is GonNa do the right thing and they have the money to do it. I think a lot of companies down but Google has the money to say. Yeah we'll pay even though you're not going to the UK there on employment deal aborting is to pay freelancers what they were earning percent of. I mean put yourself in the sandwich shop down the street they're closed. There's no revenue coming in. They can't say we'll still pay you guys for the next two months so and you know as a small business owner. It's a tough google can do it and Google should do it and so should any other company that has the resources obviously Google unveils android performance tuner android. Gpo Inspector and cloud files store. This is going to be a series of game things. These are things announced around the game. Developers summit Google Google for game developer summit. I presume streamed These were Jeez these renouncing circuit and be for. Gd See that was. That's been postponed to August so I don't. You know that means something to you could happy Google Open Stadium Makers Program for Indie game. Developers is about time. I think that's a really good thing. So if you're an Indie game developer and you WANNA be on Google streaming stadia platform there. Here's the opportunity to do that. it's you have to be developing in unity twenty nine twenty nineteen point three so there's a little limitation not just any game google play. Gp DRIVER UPDATES IN DEVELOPMENT FOR THE PIXEL FOR US. Ten a note ten. I would speculate that that has something to do with Stadia Them and the announced android. Gpu Inspector Google unveils game servers in Beta for hosting global multi-player Games. This is something Google could do really well because they obviously they have glow global network centers right now when you play a game you pretty much choose a server near you But these servers are designed to take the work out of hosting massive multiplayer games like fortnight or call of duty and to do it globally. Which is cool. I think it brings the world together when you can shoot somebody from another country. Google's travel search. Thank you for laughing. Highlights travel advisories and airline cancellation policies. This was a problem for my son. He was trying to find a way home from all of us right. He was halfway around the world and He was typing in and it didn't in any way. Tell him well. You can book as flight but you won't be able to get off For instance he found flight that flew through Taipei and it didn't say he found out he fortunately he was smart enough to look at Travel advisories and it didn't say you could fly to Taipei. But they just have to fly back to Bali. He finally leaving in The twenty eighth three days. He's GonNa he found a flight through Tokyo and they're gonNa let him transit in Tokyo. Come home he'll have to self quarantine. I think for two weeks when he gets home. But at least we're going to get them home. Oh yeah so this but if you use google he was using Google. Travel searches is really frustrating. I can't tell you know if this flight. His is going to be if I can if I can book it. So now they'll have travel advisories right there on the search as they should as they should yeah. I don't actually do you search for your flights and Google Yeah because you know it actually pretty well. Google Google flight thing is really good. I used to but Google is quite they bought. Ita So they are mation. Yeah L. I. Because I'm a prisoner of united who I hope will extend their their frequent flyer Policies Major First World problem is pushing for your sadistic along but anyway I searched their first but if I want to know was all going on and what the costs are just in the search bar just put in flayed. Cwr Two or d the state and boom. They're all is wonderful. And because you're a united Flyer you can even add. I'll do it right here. You can say You can add united to the search. That's right I can add star lions. Yeah show you those and it's A. It's a really good piece by the way that flight canceled. Sorry Sorry Jeff go to Tokyo. Sorry but that no. I think it's really good. And then you can you can you can click on. Airline is GONNA fly united also. They're still flying route is they. Were you know they got rid of all long-haul so they put some back like the other one is delayed by five hours it said so valley to SFO? On united has shown up because the Bali to Tokyo leg is probably not united. Maybe that's the case. Let's leave out united. See how he's going to get home. Impact Yeah Yeah yeah well. Anyway he did end up using this and actually I think he I said you know we. We have American Express card. You could use their travel Their America's best travel agency to do it and I think he ended up doing that I spent some time on the phone with him as they. They didn't even know where you couldn't fly. He says well. It's changing all the time. So make sense. You'd be like yeah. It was if you remember when we shut our borders. Oh sorry and that's the Google James Log all right. Let's take a break. We'll come back with more jeff and stacey and this week in Google or show today brought to you by mid Mobile. Nice time to be a mobile customer. They're giving free unlimited data for all goes through April fourteenth. All current new customers get free. Unlimited high-speed data add ons. If you want to know more about that mobile dot com slash unlimited. We're big fans mobile because it's the same great service I get right now from T. mobile their T. mobile mbna but for a lot less money. I Love Mobile. You're still using one of the big four wireless providers. What are you paying for? Well you're paying for their expensive retail store. Sir Inflated Prices Hidden Fees. You're being taken advantage of because they know you'll pay intermittent mobile mobile provides the same premium network coverage. You've been getting but at a fraction of the cost. Because they don't have the stores men mobile saves on retail locations and overhead and Paso savings on to you how much all lot the introductory plan gives you unlimited nationwide talk and text and Three gigabytes a months of data for just fifteen dollars a month that's three months introductory plant. Now I liked it so much because I I. They sent me the semi. Put it in my one. Plus the phone I had and It's works great and I liked it so much I said well I'm GONNA. I'm keeping this. I'm going to go for the year package. Get this I went. To the top of the line unlimited nationwide text and talk twelve gigabytes of four G. L. T. E. data months twelve gigabytes a month three gigabytes a week more than enough. I've never used all of it. Twenty five bucks a month. I paid for a whole year. Three Hundred Bucks. Twenty five bucks a month You could bring your own phone. You can even carry your phone number over. You can put it over so your context. Come along all your your phone number. They'll know how to reach you. They won't know the difference. You know the difference. Except when you get the bill ditch then a wireless bills start saving with mint. Moga OMIT MOBILE DOT COM slash. Twig cut your wireless bill to fifteen dollars a month with three months introductory plan. You'll get the plan shipped to your DOOR FREE MINT MOBILE DOT com slash twig. When I look look at my verizon bill. At and T. Bill My T. Mobile I go Y Y Y twenty five bucks a month twelve gigabytes as a data. It's great mint mobile dot com slash. Twig I think a lot of us in the studio are now using mobile we love it meant mobile dot com slash tweak. Check them out. We thank me mobile for supporting this week. In Google New York is running out of pets to foster. Oh that's good right because it means that's F. homes. A colleague of mine wanted to get one and couldn't get one they're gone. I think that's a delightful story. Isn't that wonderful? As long as they don't come back after the but I'm like oh you're alone and you want to adopt a dog. That's great in when you work from home you can. So I don't have a lot to say about that story but it made me go head. Crazes spurring rally in Chewy. Shares amid a market rout. Okay this is because this Bloomberg they had to put a financial. It's the headline of the week. Pet Craze is spurring rally and Chewy shares amid market. Rout Chui is a in-home pet delivery service. It's nuts park box but instead of bringing you dog biscuits to bring you a dog or the dog to bring you like dog. Food and bet. Pet beds are pets.com in a later time my old friend bill gross started pets.com for it. Yeah it was just too early chew. He was huge. And then true we got bought by Amazon zones overall. Okay so we get is food and litter from them. See they need okay. This is a very first world problem and I realize how awful this sounds. But I don't know how I'M GONNA get chlorine for the hot tub. She's just order it. No because it's a chemical I guess I don't know I have to go to the dealer and they're closed so you need. There's no there's I guess it's just this brand. They say no. No we want you to buy it from the dealer but I don't know what I'm GonNa do. Journey hot is clearly no. I'm not going to be for the virus ever do. That was actually worse than I thought. It was going to be so congratulate you know. What's He gonNa say you talked it? I love it all right. I can't get my yacht wax. Whatever will I do I thought this was a very good story. Maybe we can wrap up on this one. Because this is a deep philosophical conversation and I have a feeling we might get diametrically opposed points of view but I really thought this asked an important question from wired. Oh no no. I know what it's going to be. We just ban targeted advertising aren't low so well are all the woes of the world ad tech surveillance capitalism ave driven by this desire to target advertising. If we just said you can't you? Can't you just have to buy ads the old fashioned way billboards and mass media or podcast ads or TV ads Wouldn't wouldn't wouldn't you? I mean first of all everybody agrees targeted advertising work all that. Well I mean all the ads. Okay it's sanitizing time before JEFF GETS IN THIS ARGUMENT. I did my communist joke and I. I should say okay. I agree all right. We're going to sanitize here then. I have to use my hand cream because my hands delicate fans are getting really raw. So is this. Is this a non starter? Probably is Congress's never going to pass a law saying you can't do targeted advertising. I not and nor should they. I wrote a piece some months ago about this now. My hand cream since back in my hand ritual make sure you get those cubicles Jeff as I. Lowland accused how to do this I. I'M GONNA get my manny petty. Without targeting we ended up back at pure mass media with irrelevance and and treating us all the same and targeting is not a bad thing. There are small companies that were able to start because they could have efficient targeting. They could they. Could you know sell you the weird stuff by geeks because because otherwise they'd have to just by CPM and we junk ads and junk content? The same is going to be true. Political campaigns to a movement or a small campaign can start efficiently because a targeting and it gives us more. Relevance targeting is not evil. It's not our job as society to make advertising more efficient. I don't think that benefits society and I think that it's very clear that the the detriments of targeted advertising extremely clear surveillance economy. Oh I'll come down. Just calm down surveillance. Science surveillance is when the stock ozzy goes after you. And you're going to end up jail for forty years and nobody knows where you are. That's surveillance don't don't diminish. I'm not saying China. Iran ads embassy self-censorship. What about not performing as you might because you know people are watching you at all times and I'm not talking about innocent like I'm not talking about like not punching an old lady in the face while you're walking you gotTA dance like nobody's watching but being leery about what you say or what you talk about much people in China. They self-censor all the time. Yes it has the government with jails and guns is GonNa come after you. That's what I'm saying. Joe Walsh that versus somebody showing armed government. Our government is in in so I understand. Targeted advertising being frustrating and surveillance capitalism applied. There may seem a little over the top a little bit Detroit but but there is legit concern about surveillance capitalism because the same sort of surveillance technologies that give you targeted. Ads also can be co opted for like geofencing warrants and. That is a problem. So you've got to understand like how do we? How do we deliver targeted advertising? Which is I don't know if it's entirely innocuous but it's not to the level of the Stasi coming to your door putting you in jail for forty years but the tools are the same and there's nothing in our laws right now that allow you to like say you can use this for this. But not the other breaking the law. Problem is not the advertising. Your problem is the data. Your problem is the misuse of the data for which we need laws. Let's just get on just banned targeted advertising. Google makes sixty percent of its money on search ads. That's fine you can buy you can you? You'RE A candidate. You want to get to an audience searching for You know a thousand dollars a month for life. You can buy that but you can't collect information it's created facebook. It's created Google to some degree. It's creepy I mean it's it's also the only salvation to media meet mass media. No it kills me is killing me. You know 'cause media we're no it's killing media. People don't surf the net anymore suddenly. There's all these pay walls and there's all this mess because because average is advertising ending. This one's good. It's everyone hand sanitizer spray with coconut and lemon and it feels good. It's smells good. I highly recommended and this is targeted at everyone with dirty buys anywhere got on Amazon. Oh say you'll get it now in a month yeah subscribe. It's my birthday is in a few weeks. Nobody's going to be able to send me presents. Very Sam chlorine problem. What about Manny Pettis? You can't get those either. That's okay I'll send my chauffeured to the store. I don't know I. I think we should get rid of targeted advertising. I think this is a very good. That would eliminate a lot of harm in the society without please. Jeff what are we? GonNa lose really. We'RE NOT GONNA lose anything if you're going to go back to you what you're going to get. You're going to get the worst of as first. Advertising loan just advertise period advertising. You're going to get the worst of advertising. You gotta get Click Bait. It's already know our advertising is targeted. It's targeted advertising to me with used books. I actually care about because they know that I've shopped books. Wonderful thing you just don't want us to fight that's all you just wanted us to fight. You're playing I like I'm sincere. I like this proposal but but I know it's a nonstarter because Congress would also say that you would all be figured out how to create things I have. I don't do targeting you do. You are targeting by nature. But that's not an illegal form of targeting. I'm not collecting information about our audience. Well I would like it to be illegal to collect information. Yeah just jealously just GEL. No because they're gonNA put me out of business because I refuse to do the kind of Audience data collection that advertisers have come to more and more expect and so because I can't compete with the big giant AD companies that collect data like Google facebook and ultimately spotify. We will be out of business because we don't do targeting. That's a harm. You hadn't considered but it's a it's a real arm. I don't think we've gained anything by targeted advertising at all and I think we're going to lose a lot more including well most of the newspapers in this country and because I've been yelling newspapers for years that they should've called. First Party data and there were two stupid because they kept on insisting. Let the only person to them. Google the newspapers and magazines. I just didn't know they didn't. They gave we ripped off those advertisers for years and years and years giving them terribly much about these advertisers. Who Cares the media? Are we going to commercial? Second no save this for after the commercials But I think our advertisers get value for dollar. They wouldn't come back if they didn't but but increasingly they're gonNA say well. We only want to target twenty five to fifty four year olds with one hundred fifty thousand dollars in income in the Pacific northwest and At that point we're going to say well we can't help you. What you're going to get is what you what killed blogging and killed the Beautiful World Wide Web that we had you're gonNA get direct insertion ads on podcasts that are targeted at you but are not personal not not host read not endorsements none of the kinds of ads podcasting and you're GONNA get a lot of small podcasters out of business or they'll have to make it a hobby and spotify and and IHEART meteoric to dominate because they collect information about their audience. I think this is a great law. I wish they'd pass it. I know there's no choice but I wish I mean we should have this. It's IT'S I. I think the harms you describe her minimal compared to the harms that are already happening including but that's the twenty thousand mark interference socio. What's your what would you want is you might as well move to Germany. Which one is government protectionism for Your Business? Sorry I'm not asking beach. I'm margin for government government protectionism from my privacy. Oh I am asking for that. Little thought. Privacy. You're the ones who brought it the consequences. I'm not talking about the consequences. Unless you want to. The harms imagined imputed or real. I've but I I am talking about a very real specific prohibition on collecting private information about people. It's what's May Google and facebook so powerful. It's also it's made them highly relevant and useful and valuable really. Yes Yeah facebook relevant Yes yes really On that note. Is there anything? I MISSED ANY STORY WE MISSED. Let's take a lucky Lou here along. I think we got them all. I think we got. There's lots of free stuff free to audible stream audible stories and sponsor I think a lot of companies are kind of but you know first thing you should look for if you're looking for content boys and girls if you've got a library card check what APP your local library uses. Because there's lots of free stuff there and your by some work so so so back to stacy point earlier about the findings someplace else to buy. So I wanted to books Amazon. You know the bookstore was May and so I looked at Barnes and noble and it was through full price levels. Barnes and noble and my local store. Isn't doing this book finder? I've you know book find her. Finer is the best. It's across every site used new and I'm looking for a lot of obscure books vary obscure books and I can find them there but these two new books I wanted and there was a local store somewhere in America that had them up in the local store. Got Some business from me and I was happy. That's good every Local store should be book finder I think they are kind of almost anyway. I use and it really looks like nineteen eighty-four all over again. I use this years ago. I'm glad to know they're still around rate. I did find an book on this because I couldn't find it anywhere else wasn't on Amazon Amazon. Now like everything by on an eight books is a major portal to use books but but finders that Nice Book Finder Dot Com. That's a good pick. I did not mention. I'm sure you're sad about this. Vid CON is cancelled. Sh Yeah I. I'm on the Advisory Board to Bitcon on page be clear And Jim Lauterbach. Who's a friend of all of ours? sent out the email sadly this week but Yeah they with dealing with that. Many young people Even in July it was going to be too uncertain. They have to so I hope they do. Virtual things the Olympics have been postponed. That's a significant one and I think the right thing to do but boy you talk about economic consequences They say they'll do it. Next year. Spacex had its first launch delay due to corona virus. There they're putting those they're putting those Starling satellites up. They've got what ninety up now? They're they're they're rolling them. Out Pretty fast. Thank God I get twelve thousand toward twelve thousand. Yeah they've still got a ways to go but yes The Air Force Forty Fifth Space Wing confirmed yesterday. That space x is upcoming Southcom Watch. It was calm satellite Set to take place at Cape Canaveral March thirtieth using Falcon nine put on indefinite hold during the impact of corona virus. That's that's wild. Let us get your pick of the week. Stacey Higginbotham low you guys is going to be a double pick because then they arrive. I'm going to show them to you. But why is now offering their wise fitness band for twenty four ninety nine? Why those guys the camera people the cameras. Smart Cameras Sense People. So they've made an activity tracker. Looks like a fitbit charge but it has built in Madame a over the Bluetooth on your phone And it has the ability to control your devices plus a full color. Led screen and. Let's see what else. Oh activity tracker bla-bla-bla they also launched a scale in the scale skills notice. The scale is only nineteen ninety nine easing. It does not right now. It seems with only Google fit but it will sink eventually with fitbit apple and Samsung's help out in. This scale does a lot. It measures the traditional like body weight body composition from there. You know detect water rates Lean body mass I'm really excited about bone mass as someone who has Prosise and our history. So I'm like. Ooh punters bone mass. I don't know There's a I'm going to guess it's has to do with the conduct testing right. So the the the you know they have left foot right foot. They sent a charge through your body. And that's how they do a lot of this stuff. I don't know like water in your body. And that's how they pick like your fat versus muscle. I wonder how accurate that is. I don't know but I ordered both so I won't Goodell Man. They are amazing. The price points that they set are ridiculously low. Twenty dollars for smart scale. I have scaled as it's eight ninety nine to ship it. So you're looking at actually twenty. Nine percent of the band is twenty. Five Bucks. Yeah that's right at both of those for basically sixty dollars. That's and that's crazy because I remember. I bought the you a Health Kit. Like four years ago that is now defunct In two thousand fourteen or two thousand thirteen twenty eight twenty sixteen is when I got it and that was four hundred dollars so so the nice thing banned it works with wise cams. It's a smart home functionality. So you could use it. Turn on lights and wise smart home funk shelly so yeah Amazon's well it's using echo us. Yes you can use Amazon Echo. Yes so that would be. They're smart home as well. Too Right yes so any of your devices that are controllable the Amazon but it has controllers your wife's gear already on cameras and so forth. That's really cool really cool it is so I will. I'm wearing a charge three so I will look like it kind of it does. So I'll let you guys know how it measures up against that when I when I get my Seattle company right. They are just unfortunately because I had to pay tax when I ordered but Yeah I get the feeling that they're just sourcing Chinese deer so their business model is their former Amazonian. Their business model is to source the hardware from China. Run Their software over in tiny margins and get a lot of users to buy more and more of their gear. While I'm all for the so I have the camera that we find out how the cat was being of. That's right anything else in the wise line that what. What else in the one going back even do you. Do you like best. I've got the lights. The Lights are fine. They're Nice. They're wife headlights. I also have the sense. Which is a twenty dollar sensor kit? And if you're into that sort of thing it's a nice introduction to start playing with sensors You can use it for home. Monitoring like door open close in. You'll get a notification. You could also it to your camera so if a door you can set it up so if like the back door opens your camera. We'll start recording So those are some options for you. I actually set up one of the motion sensors in my jewelry jar. And so if you open my jewelry. Juror I can get a notification. If it's not me I wanNA know paranoid about somebody in the house. No my daughter is now thirteen. And she thinks it's interesting to steal my jewelry and some of it she cannot borrow not keeping up. And you guys and you guys haven't brought up. I I want to bring in a privacy lawyer for your daughter surveillance maternal surveillance going on here. I don't know here's stacy I do not I do not. I have a camera anywhere inside the house. But if I get a notification and it's not me I'm like Anna are you thanks. I was just looking for something like Abbie Shoe Sizes Jennifer and that meant not just jewelry theft shoes theft so so every other mother has is in the back of their head. Stacey has everyone. Pr Sensors in the back of your head. That's awesome. I think a little bit crazy crazy. You got a problem. You can solve it that way. Jeff you have some numbers I think. Oh let's see what we do here. I think it's bringing back an Oldie but I think given whenever as going through the world we should share conference call Bingo conference call. Bingo is that like a chat roulette five by five of everything that we hear on conference calls. Hi who just joined. Oh yes you. Email it to everyone on the call. Oh yes Hi Can you hear me? Oh yes I'm sorry. I was on mute. I think there's a lag I have heard every one of these every one of these every one of these. It's the best. Hello hello can we take us off? Line that's hysterical. And what are you didn't catch that. Can you repeat what do you get if you fill in the card out of jail get out of jail free conference so? I'm sure this has been around forever but it's just so I've seen up snake before but it's really now. We're all living the play this for tweet. Look at this for like sorry. Go ahead still loading. Hello Hello Hello. Adding things like Oleo Punch Leo. But I'm sure there's twinkling panic Gutenberg Goldenberg. Oh yeah that's that's my old car not even Bingo. That's just a drinking game And I mentioned already but I'll mention it again and I'll show you in fact if you have not used cool podcast. It's actually very credible. Podcast client now available updated on Android but now available on Iowa. I just think it's I think it's very clean and clear This is this is my homepage because These are things actually. It isn't my homepage. This is my homepage might hugh in my Nico now download but This is I guess this is their discover. No there's my homepage. How did I get the I get to discover you can air played up there. It is The search the magnifying stacy. How do you talk on this thing? they have a whole section on covert information. If you really WANNA get anxious I I'm looking for everything that isn't cove it at this point. Yeah no kidding. No kidding recommendations. There's Lennox Action News there. You Go So there's I guess they must be. These recommendations are clearly based on my interests. So that's that's cool a lot of stuff in here. Oh there's a there's twit. So that's fun Google podcasts. The one thing. I really like about Google podcasts. On android you can make a Shortcut on your desktop for on your launcher for all the podcasts. You listen to each of them has a dedicated button. Obviously he can't do that with with apple because apple won't bunch Jeff Jarvis is a professor of journalism at Cuny. He is Buzzmachine DOT COM newmark graduates. Have that lower third. I can't so okay I'll I'll give you. That's important one. Okay Craig no Mark School of graduate nationalism. Here what what if I do this? Hate Chef could you your title again please. No not doing it. They can't do it to help you out and get your important Taylor. I'm not messing with you think. Graduate Nationalism is a very good subject and everybody should studying Stacey naturalism. We're all in now now. I do not oh I was like she was going to be a joke. You say he as a philosophy nationalist dirt. Stacey Higginbotham is the author of Stacey Not Dot Com subscribed to newsletter. You really can't avoid it and I'm sorry you went there every day. You wouldn't see it. That's not truly pop okay. Andrew tells me whenever I complained a little timer every two we. If you weeks okay. Maybe that is true I've been there more often than every two weeks though and I already subscribe to the newsletter but anyway does she know you know what it means. You're not setting cookies on my browser and that's fine with me. I don't use any data badly. Ever see she's a good person she's also a good host of Stacey on Iot with Kevin. Toefl things podcast. I'm sorry that's okay. The Internet of things podcast. Not your website name. We have a branding issue. How would I find the Internet things? Podcast oh you go to stacey on Iot so just look for the podcast. They're good enough We do this show every Wednesday one thirty Pacific for thirty eastern twenty-three. Utd You can watch us to live twit DOT TV slash live. You can listen. Live there too. If you'd like to in fact you can even ask your Amazon Echo or other voice assistant stream edges say echo play twit live or as she sometimes calls twit live. And you can. Listen to whatever's going on day or night you can also listen to the podcast echo. Play this week in Google podcast. And she'll do that. You can find on on demand versions of everything we do at our website twit dot TV for this show it's twitter TV slash twig But as I said best thing you could possibly do would be subscribe and your favorite podcast application. If you subscribe you'll get it. Automatically the men it's available. Thank you stacey. Thank you Jeff. Stay well stay healthy sanitize and we'll see you next week on this week and