6 Episode results for "Judy Manage"
Wednesday 13 March
"You're listening to Midori house. First broadcast on the thirteenth of March two thousand nineteen on monocle twenty four. Hello and welcome to Madari house coming to you live from studio one here in London. I'm Andrew Miller on today show. This is speaker to be Frank last night's events mean we are not where I hoped we would be today. The UK is chancellor Philip Hammond. Utters a plausible contend if understatement of the year, my guests, Linda you and colored manure will be discussing this and the day's other top stories, including the United States curious reluctance to join the world in grounding, the Boeing seven three seven max, California's new governor making good on his promise to close death-row and a new book commemorating journalists killed on the job. That's coming up on the Dory. House on monocle twenty four right now. And welcome to Midori house. My guest today, Linda, you the columnist and author and colored Manera from so as welcome both. We will start inevitably with Brexit days to go sixteen clues possessed by the government of the United Kingdom, but what's actually going to happen zero last night. The house of Commons shutdown Prime Minister Theresa May's withdrawal agreement for the second time tonight MP's will vote on whether to forestall the prospect of the UK leaving the EU on March twenty nine three thousand deal though. This is debatable utility given that the UK leaving the EU on March. Twenty ninth is in the absence of an extension or revocation of article fifty what is going to happen? However, parliament votes tonight. Linda, we will start with that vote is actually any imaginable point to it really because I'm not wrong about this the default setting is that on March twenty ninth. I think at twenty three hundred hours the UK by force of law leaves the European Union unless an extension is granted, which does not do know. So that'd be vote tomorrow. So we've had a drama last night. But I say drama that I think the expectation was the prime minister on with her renegotiated deal last night wasn't going to get a majority of fact, it was the fourth biggest margin of defeat for a prime minister in some by some analyses. But a big one. A big big either way did not topple Theresa May's all time. For this. Which was first time. So this is the second vote in a sequence of the vote today is whether or not MP's will say that no deals off the table. The expectation is there's majority who will say they don't want to leave without a deal. So that sets the stage for tomorrow's vote, which is will the MP's request an extension from the European Union. The EU has already preemptively said they won't give an extension unless it's for a specific purpose of you. Listen to the prime minister in the house yesterday. She said the e u is going to want to know, why do you need an extension is it to revoke article fifty which the UK can unilaterally do seems before March twenty ninth. Is it a hold a second referendum? What the e you don't want to see is to give an extension was some complications around the may European elections to think about to give an extension just so the current Brexit withdrawal GIO, which is already been rejected twice. Just goes back with some tweaks. So it won't just be the MP. As which I expect tomorrow. They probably well, we'll see that vote is probably the least certain of these three in the sequence. We still have to get the e u to agree that they would give an extension. The question is under what conditions and for how long. There is another hypothetical here, of course. And while it sounds just insane. Andy Dior tick, and like the sort of thing that would never normally happen. Those are all descriptions, you could apply to most of the last three years in British politics. Is it possible that parliament vote tonight against the no deal Brexit and might vote vote tomorrow against an extension of of? Absolutely. It's possible. I think I agree that the all the indications are that they're going to approve the the act against no deal tonight. What I'm interested in is some of the arguments by the hard Brexit errors that no deal agreement is perfectly tenable because that involves a lot of complicated references to the general agreement on trade, the tariffs and WTO and a lot of expectations that things naturally revert to some type of trade equilibrium. When things like this. The no deal we went. Yeah. When countries can't reach agreements things revert to certain types of tr trade equally Librium, and in fact, if I'm not mistaken in order to get all of the most favored nation trading benefits from the EU the would still in the end have to agree to those as well. So even if they don't, you know, even if parliament votes against this an excuse me votes to yeah. Against this. And that the the the the Britain crashes out of the that actually the future that's being predicted by many of the hard. Brexit offers may itself not come to fruition. And is itself wrapped up in these complexities of having to agree that the WTO is going to have to agree to these new trade relations. And you're the European Union itself will have to agree to them, Linda, we heard in the introduction to the show from Philip Hammond. The chancellor of the exchequer as he said, we are not wear I hoped we would be today. Day echoes there. I suspect unintentional emperor Hirohito in nineteen forty five. What was the quote, the war has developed not necessarily to our advantage? The one thing that has shifted slightly today. Is that Philip Hammond who I think it's fair to say found himself as the next prime minister. But then who doesn't at this point has made some sort of requests for cross party compromise is that likely to go anywhere. Or is that just kind of thing you say when the wheels are falling off everything. And you think there's a chance you might end up prime minister off the back of it. Well, I think he's made a couple of pitchers. I think one is the house to be and he said it in his spring statement, which was supposed to be about an update on the budget, by the way, just as an aside. Yes. He he did say, well, he did he actually he gave a couple of warnings one is by the way, all the numbers. You see today are premise on an orderly exit. So that doesn't happen. There goes there goes the end of austerity some pretty stark warnings there. And that the end he did say, you know, he hopes that there will be a consensus and the MP's have to work towards one. Because even if they get an extension this possible that the MP's who now take charge of the process won't actually agree on what kind of deal they want. So then by default by the end of the extension period if Britain count actually present something then Britain leaves without a deal. So he's trying to prevent that from happening. And I think that's why he made that quite explicit plea, but remember the prime minister sort of had invited labor to have cross party talks, the main opposition party and the. Liberal leader. Jeremy Corbyn didn't want to go unless no deal was off the table. So they never really had very constructive. Talks interest. Add more complications to this dynamic. I think labors of the Isley now beginning sounds like pitching for a general election, and there's other players to think about so the independent group which are just about the fourth. Biggest party now in parliament with a pro e u defectors from both labour and the Tories there's the DUP the ER g so when we say cross party. These days is not just Labor's actually all of them. And it's very hard to see how they can come to a common agreement actually just on one issue the Irish backstop. This withdrawal agreement has nothing to do with the future trading relationship. It's literally just about whether or not this RH stop can keep Britain in the backstop indefinitely. That's the only thing that's on the table. The has to be agreed. I want to move off the subject of Brexit because we will be talking about tomorrow and the day off to that in the day off to that. And frankly on current form for the rest of our lives until the oath spins into the sun and outlawed Kohl's us old home. But just before we move off. I have been asking all our guests in this spot. In fact, I'm sure I've asked you both this before just to sort of keep a running tally on where people think way, we are heading March thirtieth ask you first Carlo we still in the European Union. Or are we out? I think that if you ask tomorrow after tonight's vote, perhaps I'd have some sense of more clarity than I do now. But in the front of my mind, I say, I can't see any of this working out in the back of my mind. Perhaps this is some type of faith in modern ity. I think that it's either the e you will at the last minute try to create some type of means for the UK stating in. Yeah. But the compromise most likely won't come from the UK side, Linda. I think we'll be in. I think have you followed the euro crisis very closely from about twenty ten to twenty thirteen we're so something gets agreed at the last minute. So there won't be a crushing out. But there's just as the saying goes, and this is a saying I heard repeatedly during the euro crisis. Politicians are very good at kicking the can down the road. So it just gets kicked out by few months. Well, let's move along. Now, the United States Federal Aviation authorities traditionally the body from which the rest of the world takes a lead in matters of aircraft safety the FAA is known for being cautious and diligent in what feels like a metaphor for something. The FAA is as we go to where among the last juristictions yet to ground the Boeing seven three seven max following Sunday's crash of an Ethiopian Airlines seven three seven max eight near Addis Ababa with the loss of all aboard. Most of the rest of the world has bought these seven three seven max from it says space, some USA line still operating the aircraft offering passengers the opportunity. To switch. However, Carlo isn't as we look at the way is not grounding them as yet as we go to where they may change their minds at some point. Right. I think politically it certainly is suspect I think that at the whether it's coming from the White House or at the head of the agency itself there has to be some calculation here. This is a US industry. They're the complications. But the aircraft are not fully known yet. Even though they were there's now this these new reports that there were these there have been these complaints over. I think within the last year, by pilots reporting a relatively the same type of problem that brought down the two aircraft. Both not only that utopian Jeff of the lion air jet. And that is if this is about politics and the protection of US industry, then that's that's a problem. Certainly if you look at what's going on in Asia, particularly southeast Asia and China. I think that these governments see this jet as perhaps not, you know, capable of obviously a fly, but certainly having a certain risks in them that that makes the decision to ground these aircraft, you know, within the realm of calculations. I think in if this is going to be go on for much longer. The Trump administration will likely come under more pressure to ground the aircraft. Boeing is a huge huge company. It's an a massive competition with Airbus and in southeast Asia. For instance, this is exactly, you know, these jet sell in the thousands, and this is given the future of aviation in southeast Asia. This is exactly the type of thing that Boeing doesn't need Linda to possibly counter intuitive take. But is there actually any reassurance to be gleaned by the fact that Boeing say they remain confident in the seven three seven max in that American Airlines are still flying because bowing out obviously painfully where I'm. Sure that if something was to go wrong with another one in the imminent future. And obviously, we would hope that it does not. But that would be game set and match for the seven three seven max, wouldn't it? I think Boeing probably has no choice, but to say they have confidence in the aircraft. So I think the dispute is over whether or not the pilots have enough time to react to disengage be basically the computer system taking over. So in other words, what happens in these aircrafts is Boeing says that they have a system where there is an opportunity for the pilots to basically disengage and pilot manually, but the pilots and the critics say that time period is too short. So when when one of these planes goes into a bit of a down word tailspin because of a misreading of of airspeed or wind speeds, or whatever it is. It's too short a reaction time for the pilots then to take the corrective action. So there's an ongoing dispute between Boeing and the pilots, and I just wonder if it's because they said their system they would. Have to stand behind but already. It's not just the case that Europe and everybody else is already grounded this aircraft travel agents in the United States corporate travel agents are not booking business travelers on these aircrafts for the airlines that are still flying them, which is not just American Airlines. But also, I think south western and other airlines. So regardless of what's being said, I think there's already enough doubt. Because these two crushes have been fairly quick succession because member airplane crashes are very rare. And so for both of these things that have been and as I say this pretty well known dispute about the effectiveness of their system. I think regardless of what they do travelers already making the choice for them color. Color, as you suggested there is inevitably a political dimension to this as as an expression of that. We we have been blessed with the the thoughts of President Trump on air travel. He thinks aeroplanes becoming too complicated to fly. This is the man who troubles regularly on possibly the most complex and sophisticated aircraft ever built. I e f force one does that help. Does it advance? The the the conversation at all that Donald Trump who to the best knowledge is never actually flown aircraft thinks they are too complicated. His brother, I think I heard fly was an airplane pilot, though. So perhaps. May. Brother is a graphic design doesn't make me one. I I don't think it helps anything I think anyone who knows just the smallest amount of knowledge about the airline industry knows that airplanes are are real airplane designers, relying more and more on new technologies all the time. Whether this technology relates to the type of materials, the airplanes use or the computer systems, the auto pilots, and this is absolutely critical to the future of the aviation industry. I mean, designing airplanes to be simpler, I don't know. What that would mean, obviously, many of the many of the aspects of modern aviation are premised upon very very technologically sophisticated instruments. I mean, I'm old enough to know I've never said that on radio before. But I'm old enough to remember when I was a kid if you took off in an airplane. The take off was very very rough, and you rarely have airplane takeoffs now that are rough, and that's the result of you know, technological sophistication that again. As you say Donald Trump benefits from on a daily basis. Probably the push comes to cut birth. I'll start that phrase again, the push comes to shove question, which I will put both to you before we take a break is obviously would you cheerfully and willingly set foot on the seven three seven max right now, Linda, I'm asking my travel agents to check that. I'm not traveling America's I'm okay, I. Carlo would you? I have as much certainty in the 737 max as I do in Brexit. So in the friend of mine. I say absolutely not in the back of my mind. I would say if it's flying. It must be airworthy in some way, we'll on that skillful linking Adele to opening stories. We we we will take a short break. You're listening to Midori house with me Andrea along with Linda you on colored venero coming up next is capital punishment in America itself on death row. Mentioned the name funk house in Berlin. And you'll be greeted with excited curious d- or mysterious smile from those in the known, the former communist broadcasting house got a new lease of life when young musicians hunkered down Monaco films set out on the tour of the stunning studios and recording holes from cows on the same wavelength playing now in the film section at Monaco dot com. Tune in now to Mitty class by Chanel on monocle twenty four join us over five fascinating episodes as we explore the craftsmanship precision artistry and design philosophy of Llamas or Chanel and his family of collaborators in the coming weeks. We'll be sitting down with the likes of Pharrell Williams and lady Amanda harlot. But this week it's the turn of Chanel president Bruno Pavlovsky who sits down with Tyler Bree to tell him more about the inner workings of the fashion house. The scene of what we're doing. They want to better understand what we are doing is just for the beauty of the product the conversation at Monaco dot com. VR ATM another channels or on channel three fifty five podcast at identi- may take less by Chanel on monocle twenty four listen now. You back with Madari house with me under Melissa with me Arlanda you on color venire. Now, the seven hundred thirty seven residents of death row in California may sleep slightly easier tonight, newish state, government, governor governor governor Newsome is due to sign an executive order declaring a moratorium on executions on the grounds that they are as he puts it inconsistent with our bedrock values. His order will close California's lethal injection chamber at San Quentin prison, this is perhaps less dramatic than it sounds given California has not carried out an execution since two thousand six President Donald Trump has accused governor Newsom of defying voters vote. He's unclear which voters Trump means newsome's moratorium was applying coffees election platform, and he won in sixty one point nine percent landslide. We should acknowledge Kalo. I'll ask you first California did have a death penalty referendum in two thousand sixteen and decided to keep it fifty three forty seven this again. The fact that they hadn't actually been an execution in a decade. When that vote was held the fact that they voted for new some anyway, does it suggest that people perhaps actually careless about this than they might think when it's presented to them as a a single issue. Yeah, I agree with that. I think that that the death penalty very complex issue in American politics attitudes have been changing over the last twenty years. You find I I would argue that you find a very strong streak of law and order politics within the general electorate doesn't make a difference. If you're democrat or Republican but on individual issues like whether the drug war death penalty. Then I think you get a more variegated sense of where voters are coming from the death penalty in California and also just to to take a step back referendum politics. Also brings out different dynamics than election. We've we've noticed. Absolutely. So yeah, I think it's not a contradiction that people might still be the public in general might be fairly sympathetic or supportive of the death the death penalty. But at the same time that that he was elected precisely on this platform. It's not a single issue. I think other other issues like this in the United States politics, which really divided electorate. The electorate is something like abortion rights and the death penalty perhaps twenty years ago would have because I think Nancy Pelosi ran on a pro death penalty platform when she was running for governor of California. And now, it's very difficult to find mainstream Democrats who would take that position Lindros Kalu correctly points out support for the death penalty in the US has fluctuated court extravagantly at actually and very very weirdly. They've been periods in which it was actually even less popular than it is now will within living memory. It's now at about fifty six percent in favor, but that's down from the peak of eighty percent. As recently as the late ninety s what do you think might account for that? That's it for for. What seems like such a a fundamental principle for people to have with the u full reduced the state enacting punishment for crime by killing people, but extraordinarily variable? I think it's because there have been more projects around Justice. So people who have been on death penalty subject to the death penalty on death row, and then acquitted by new evidence, there's been a lot of campaigning around this. There have been people who especially I think around African Americans who had been put on death row for lots of reasons within the judicial system and police system that I think are pretty have come into the spotlight quite a lot over the last. I would say few years few decades, even and in fact, you might remember a boxer code the hurricane played by Denzel Washington in a movie. He was a, you know, said there have been some very high profile movies around people in an unfairly incorrectly. Convicted of crimes in some of them have been on death row. And I think all of that has helped to shape outta twos. When let's not forget America is pretty unusual in the world for having the death penalty as well. So I suppose in other factor might be globalization, greater awareness of how other countries view the death penalty, and all of that could change attitudes and make it less acceptable. I think I think I'm writing saying the US is one of the few countries actually, the has the death penalty. Most countries don't. Well, it it certainly among the most enthusiastic employers of the death penalty. But there are calling extraordinary regional variations in the United States in enthusiasm for it. What what accounts for those? Well, actually, the regional variations are very distinct so many in many cases in the United States when people talk about politics, they like to talk about red and blue states, or perhaps the coast and the central in the the middle part of the country in terms of divisions or cultural political cultural divisions, but actually regarding the death penalty, the states that employ at the most are clustered in the south, and this actually is parallel to incarceration rates, if you look at incarceration rates of Perth hundred thousand people the states that incarcerate more people than any others are basically, Texas, Oklahoma. And then you move east for the death penalty it extends up. Until Ohio, and it's just a cluster, which does not, you know, there's no I think there haven't been any executions in the state of New York since the nineteen nineties or something like that, you know, in the northeast, it's almost it's completely uncommon. And then in the west you have states like Arizona, which are fairly more enthusiastic about the death penalty. But again, if we thought about perhaps the way in which law and order plays in local politics or the regional level. I wouldn't be surprised if we did some type of content analysis of recent elections, you could track the enthusiasm for the death penalty and the willingness to apply it with these political dimensions as well. Belinda do you think that we might see the United States though, obviously, there will always be people who favored as indeed I'm sure there are in pretty much every other country. And there's quite a part of me that dreads to think what would happen here in the UK if that was put to a referendum, but isn't imaginable that the United States will ever respectively. Just give up on it just move pasta whether with a bit by bit through federal legislation or or if you just get to a point where all the states individually, just Assad we're not doing this anymore. I think get that. I think you already see it shifting quite a law tem, California's not alone as his state. That's put a moratorium on the death penalty. The reason normally is because with technology forensic better forensic technology. They're able to raise 'em evidence. So once you have doubts like that than putting a moratorium on the death penalty's what you've begun to see the state's adopt. And is ultimately a issue a state could decide whether they want to or not. And I think the trend is it's a it's. As a as I say, it's a pretty unusual country to have the death penalty. So I think I wouldn't be surprised if we moved in that direction. Finally tonight since nine hundred ninety two at least one thousand three hundred thirty seven journalists have been deliberately murdered or otherwise lost in the line of duty worldwide the committee to protect journalists a nonprofit organization which works hard to keep that number down has memorialize a Representative twenty four of the full on with the new book called BA last column as the title suggests collect the final dispatches filed by twenty four reporters, including the Wall Street Journal's done you'll pull the Sunday Times. Marie colvin. The Washington Post Jamal kashogi and the photographer Tim Hetherington caller that he's a high number one thousand three hundred thirty seven that we know of in the last twenty seven years will. So is it your sense that journalism has become more dangerous that journalists are regarded as I guess slightly fair game than they once were. I would be surprised if that were the case, I think perhaps what what has changed is the meat media's ability. And this is totally justified. But the the media's ability to actually highlight those cases in which journalists are being threatened who or who have been attacked and actually one one example of this comes from the committee to protect your analysts own website. So I thought that the I saw the videos that were testimonies to f- of the relatives to these journalists, and it was incredibly, you know, I think it's an incredibly important project. And it was heartbreaking to listen to people talk about their loved ones who have who have been murdered in this way. But if you look at what's going on in the Philippines, where there have been twelve journalists who have been killed since the beginning of the deter administration that actually those murders did not appear on their website. And I was surprised by this actually, and it is a it is a local group the committee for the Philippines committee for investigative journalism that have raised the profile here. And that's one one thing that they have they. Have international access. Now, it's social media in a way that they perhaps wouldn't have had thirty years ago. Is there is there any hope or prospect? You think Linda that a memorial? Like, this does I guess co was those people who do regard journalists as targets to think twice. I think so I think you and the one one example, I can think of is in the US, you have certain cities that essentially say that any attack on a police officer, there's zero tolerance. And so I think you need to get journalists to that same point where there's literally so much social moral condemnation, it's zero tolerance to touch the fourth estate. I mean, the journalism is the is the pillar that holds government to account and if social media, and I think Carl's right can do this. Then great the lost column. The book is published by the committee to protect journalists in association with HarperCollins further. Details can be found at the loss column dot com, and we're very. Proud to say that the initial print run of the book will be available for consultation and inspection in Monaco shops, willed wide that does bring us through the end off today show, Linda you on carbonara. Thank you both for joining us. The show was produced by coal to rebel research by Mando Costa, Pacheco enroll Rodrick Judy manage. It was Kenya. Scarlet tell us. How you listen to news programs. Multiple dot com forward slash m twenty four survey nineteen hundred entrepreneurs Daniel bites. There's more on the day's big stories on the daily at twenty two hundred Madari house returns at the same time tomorrow eighteen hundred London will be your host for that as well. Mandra mullah. Thanks for listening.
Friday 21 August
"You're listening to the briefing first broadcast the twenty first of August. Two, thousand, twenty on Monocle Twenty, four briefing is brought to you in association with Lance. As part of the programs partnership with Aliens, we bring you stories that demonstrate his commitment to securing people's lives. After all four hundred, thirty years all around the. Alleanza has been working hard to do just that to give courage to its customers for what's ahead. Because allience knows how important it is to a fair partner, your side who provides solid and sustainable solutions. Leon strives to do it right we've passion every day. Stay tuned to the briefing. Dear, exactly. How allience. Doug it. An allience for life? Hello and welcome to the briefing coming to you live from studio one here Madari House in London I'm Andrew. Miller coming up. I'll be a president will stand with our allies in France and making clear door adversaries. The days of cozying up to dictators is over. Me US vice. President Joe Biden makes his pitch for promotion. We'll have an extended analysis of what the Democratic Party's candidate had to say as he accepted his nomination for the presidency. Also ahead Egypt ponders a full-scale intervention in the interminable war next door but would this be any way of bringing anything like peace to Libya plus we'll have the latest business news and Bundesland Switch Shafts Establishes Hunga. Gase. Another extremely helpful. German listen all that coming up right here on the briefing monocle. Twenty Four and. Welcome to today's edition if the briefing with me Andrew. Muller. Foamy US Vice President Joe, Biden addressed the first ever online Democratic convention last night to accept his party's nomination for the presidency and set out his pitch for the top job Biden speech as might have been expected was an extended digression on the differences between himself and incumbent President Donald Trump Biden. Inviting American voters to choose competence compassion and civility over four more years of the opposite. We'll joining me to discuss Biden speech is molecules, affairs, editor, Chris Chuck Chris you handsome clips from the speech which we will get to presently, but a considered as a whole. was there an over arching theme? Why does Joe Biden think Americans should elect Joe Biden President I lost. So, yes. Before we get into the clips, the overarching theme really was quite stark if we can put it that way this was not just about Donald trump as a person it was far more about hope versus darkness literally is the language that he used many many times throughout the speech. This idea do we want for more years of darkness? So he? Really, this was not so much a policy speech. There weren't really very specific points too much about what he intends to do. Rather, there was much more focused on the bigger picture, the state of the state of our democracy what is at stake in this election, and that's the kind of clips that I'd like to show a couple of we'll get to those presently. Just, how did he pitch himself as a character because? Biden very much unlike the president under whom he served as Vice President Barrack Obama can't pitch himself as a a change. He is political establishment as you could possibly imagine, he's been a senator in shortly after the civil war he's been vice president everybody in the United. States knows who he is a how is he able to make a virtue of that? That's that's a good point and to be honest he did not really focus on change, which is perhaps interesting. You could in that you could argue if another candidate had won the Democratic primaries, they would have focused more on bringing something different. He focused on unity he focused on him being the experienced candidate who would restore. A sense of sanity to the office and so on and so forth. The that was really what he played on he focused on Barack Obama. He brought his experience into this. He said Thankyou Barack Obama at one point we don't say that enough. So he actually really did try and hearken back to another time in our in our history. Well, let's have a look at the clips you've picked from the speech, which is the first one. So the first one just lays out the what is at stake in this current moment in time very well I think. And now history has delivered us to one of the most difficult moments America's ever faced. Four four historic crises. Also same time. A perfect storm. The, worst pandemic over a hundred years, the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression the most compelling call for racial justice since the sixties and the undeniably realities and. Just the accelerating threats of climate. Change. So the question for us is simple, are we ready? I believe we are. We must be. You know all elections important. We know in our bones this one is more consequential. Loss Line. That's an appeal to it. It's an appeal to those who are wondering if there's a point in voting, isn't there because I think Biden is probably assume that. Trump's base probably not necessarily reachable is just trying to make sure people do actually vote. You Know I. think There was a little bit of both I think you're right that that line that last line was directed more at Democrats to say do come out and vote think that just because your candidate perhaps where the you were. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren supporter or somebody else don't think that this election doesn't matter just because you're a candidate didn't win this this election matters tremendously. But at the same time I would say even this, he was laying out this big picture in a way that I think was trying to speak to trump voters as well because he often. Throughout the speech he did sort of directed to people in general thing is this the future that you want is this really where you see our country going, you know he used that kind of language that I think was If not directed trump's base, it was certainly directed to those who might be wavering on the conservative side wondering perhaps they've been led astray or or or whatever else. Perhaps, this isn't actually the direction that they. Want. So I think he was quite effective in in doing that as well and he spoke they say not just Donald Trump. But Really of these mammoth challenges, the country is facing and so the sub context of that was we need somebody competent. We need somebody experienced at this moment to deal with it. One of those four crises was, of course, the COVID nineteen crisis. Let's have a listen to what he had to say about that. As. President the first step I will take. We get control of the virus that has ruined so many lives. Because understand something, this president hasn't from the beginning. We will never get our economy back on track. We will never get our kids safely back in schools will never have our lives back until we deal with this virus. On this summer night. Let. Me Take a moment to speak to those of you who've lost the most. I have some idea how it feels to lose someone you love. I know that deep black coal that opens up in the middle of your chest and you feel like you're being sucked into it. I mean be cruel. And unfair. Life can be sometimes. But I've learned two things. I Loved. One. May Have left this surf. But. They'll never leave your heart. They'll always be with you always hear the Second. I found the best way through pain and loss and grief is to find purpose. That's Joe Biden obviously introducing his own personal biography in there as kind of a touchstone I guess a point of contact for voters to empathize with his personal story well exactly and I think we we forget in many ways that these speeches are actually away for candidates to introduce themselves or reintroduce themselves to the public. You know much of much of the public may actually not have been focusing that much on the election until this moment in time and so that's really in some ways. What these speeches Kamala Harris for the vice presidential nominee, the other night and even. Joe Biden is really about and this loss really does define who biden is throughout his career. He lost his wife and daughter in a car crash. He later lost his son Bo and he spoke about this really at length during the speech, there were other moments to where he spoke about it. It's part of Biden Story and it's interesting to see how directly linked to the coronavirus pandemic, and again, what is happening in the country I think it really tried to show that he is an empathetic character he somebody who can guide again America in this in this moment. The final clip you wanted to introduce was biden talking about foreign policies truism the politics I suspect in America more than in most places that nobody votes on foreign policy. But this is one of those elections in which the difference in foreign policy between the two candidates does seem unusually important. Let's what he had to say. I'll be present will stand with our allies in France and making clear adversaries. The days of cozying up to dictators is over. Under President Biden. A miracle not turn a blind either to Russian bounties on the heads of American soldiers. Put up with foreign interference on our most sacred democratic exercise voting. He's inviting voters. There isn't he to at least consider that there is a relationship between the incumbent and Russia which is. All do I think is a good word. We can call it odd. I suppose we could. Yes. I think it was interesting that he linked it again also t the democratic exercise of voting because as you say, foreign policies, not generally that much of a focus in campaigns that's particularly interesting because Biden himself is actually such a foreign policy expert. It's another part of actually what defines who he is. He was chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee for a long period of time he was really the secondhand on foreign. Policy under Barack Obama when he was vice president and yet even he realized he can't really touch too much on foreign policy even in a speech like this. So really the you know he just picked up these two moments where there was the elections and and Russian interference or this very important story about Russian bounties on heads of American soldiers is a story that coming out of Russia potentially working with the Taliban. In Afghanistan. See kind of pick two crucial moments. The only other one I've mentioned, which was also that he tied that was interesting. was He related China a little bit back as well. There was a moment in the speech where he talked about he will not be reliant on China or any other country for that matter for medical supplies, anything else when it comes to the pandemic. So that was actually in a way quite a nationalist style of language that he that he brought into the debate. We await president trump's response next week. Christian Mac. Thank you very much for joining us. You're listening to the briefing here is Monaco's yelling van with the days of the headlines Things Andrew doctors treating the Russian opposition figure Aleksei Nov only say he's too unwell to travel to Berlin for treatment, but only steam claims he was poisoned and that he needs urgent care outside Russia. Taiwan has released a propaganda video that warns China not to underestimate. It's resolve. Its comes as Beijing continues to step up its military activity in the waters around the self-ruled, island? South Korea spy agency claims Assistant of the North Korean leader Kim Jong UN has been given. A promotion is believed that Kim. You're Jong is now helping her brother round, the secretive regime and monocle minute reports that Germany is planning to introduce a law that would compel the country's dog owners to give their. Putra regular exercise for more on this pets do monocle dot com slash minute those today's headlines Spec to you Andrew. Thanks. For, listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four. Now, the Post Gaddafi conflict in Libya is presently depressingly on course to complete its first decade and may be about to escalate. Still further, it appears increasingly likely that neighbouring is stealing itself to piloting properly on the side of rebel General Khalifa. WHO has set himself against Libya's official government, which is significantly backed in. This may be animating Egypt's concerns by Turkey but what might suggestion intervention look like what might finally trigger it and would do any good one joined by Mary Fitzgerald, research specializing in Libya she joins me from Sabe lost in Libya in December. Mary, we'll talk shortly about the possibility of an escalated Egyptian intervention but how involved is Egypt been already in Libya whether willingly or wittingly or not? Well Egypt has been involved in in Libya since two thousand fourteen and I would argue that actually, Libya, Post Qaddafi Libya between two thousand, seven, two, thousand, fourteen was not in a state of. As such, there were a small localized conflicts spot. There was a sense that Libya was holding elections. Libya was on a trajectory in two thousand, fourteen Haifa after launched first military operations. Claiming that he was finding terrorism. He's opponents said, no this is a pretext to install himself as military ruler in in Libya Egypt as to support him from the outset because for Egypt priority was and the the the border. Border, they were concerned about the security of that border and felt at the time that after was the only one who could help them guaranteed the security of that border so Egypt helped after over the last six years in terms of a military support. The UN has a detailed several violations of the arms embargo ended up. By Egypt it's also had special forces on the ground in eastern Libya, which is after his main stronghold, and it has supported after diplomatically, of course, as well in relation to the current situation just in the last minutes is announcement by the internationally recognized government and. AAA The government that after tried to dislodge last year when he launched an offensive on Tripoli in April they have just put out a statement. Issuing their forces to immediately observe a ceasefire and all operations in Libya. So that may take some of the pressure off and right now because in recent months, all attention was on the coastal town of Sirte, which is in central on Libya central coast it was Gadhafi's. Own Search been under after, his control. For. Some time at after was pushed back from Tripoli and essentially failed in his effort to take the capital and all eyes were on Cert- with that internationally recognized government Tripoli saying that they were going to take search from front from half-dayers forces. So people were many international diplomats concerned that search would be at the ground of a new battle which would draw and Egypt as well as as Turkey. So with this announcement by the Tripoli government today, it looks as if there's a bit more breathing space and possibly possibly the opportunity for some kind of negotiated. Way Out of the current impasse. Why is Egypt those suddenly sounding more interested in stepping up its involvement do they get the sense? The Libyan conflict is approaching some sort of decisive moment and they want to be part of it. Well. So what happened last year was You know after backers. Egypt. At the United States Russia also to a degree fronts. Bet On hoster. Being able to take Tripoli. With his offensive against the recognized government there they bet on that and they lost their badge. And what happened because every war has unintended consequences what happened in? December, last year was Turkey intervened on the side of the internationally recognized government in. Tripoli. It was Turkish military support in the form of drones particularly but also mercenaries that they sent over that helped push his forces back. Now Turkey has established a presence in western Libya Turkey is inserting itself into all kinds of conversations in in Tripoli related to the. Economy, related to Security Sector Reform Turkeys really sending a message that they are in Libya and their to to stay, and that is causing resentment inside Libya but it's also causing concern in Egypt because Cairo does not want to have a neighbor next door where Turkey is a key part of of the landscape for all kinds of reasons, including rivalries in the eastern Mediterranean energy, rivalries, Etcetera. But also Cairo accuses Turkey of. Being sympathetic. It's not supportive of political Islam groups like the Muslim Brotherhood that Egypt has tried to perch from Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood as a political actor in Libya. It has been very much in the Anti hoster camp. So Cairo, doesn't want that influence to grow as a result of of the New Turkey presence finally just quickly isn't possible to President Fattah el-sisi of Egypt perceived some domestic political advantage in this would full-scale intervention in Libya be domestically popular. I. Don't think it. Would I think that the argument that may make in terms of this is about Egypt's security and border security would only go so far in terms of selling a large-scale military intervention in Libya next door I think it's one of the things that some Egyptian. Commentators observed in recent months is that CC? His rhetoric on Libya has become increasingly belligerent. He's been talking about intervening has been talking about arming. Pro After tribes in eastern. Libya's proxies. Egyptian proxies, and there is a concern that CCS is boxing himself into a corner with this very belligerent rhetoric. But I think it would be a hard sell in Egypt and this idea of a large-scale military intervention. But with the news today again, you know diplomats have felt in recent weeks that there is on the side of the Libyan belligerents little appetite for an actual battle. Little appetite for another phase in this war. So we may see with the announcement today some space. For negotiations rather than more fighting Mary Fitzgerald thanks as always for joining us you're listening to the briefing. As part of the programs partnership with Alliens, we're bringing you stories that demonstrate alliances commitment to securing people's lives. Off the role. Has Been Working hard to do just that. To give courage to its customers for what's ahead. Because, allience knows how important it is to have a fair Paul at your side. Stay tuned to the briefing to hear exactly how allience does it. An alliens for life. Back with the briefing on monocle twenty four. I'm Andrew. Miller time now to get the latest business news joined once again by you and pots at Bloomberg you and another set of brexit talks have wound up should we all be buying tinned food and gold? That you many viewers will be missing the daily updates on brexit. Well, let me give you some good news. It's four months into up until another deadline. Kasey you the UK is left the EU, but the transition period ends December the moment everything's pretty much as it was was the country was still in the European Union, but all that comes to an end on the thirty first and bad news not fontes very little progress not very good meat mood music coming out of Brussels today at Michelle Bonnier the negotiator saying at this stage and agreement looks unlikely. He said that too often this week it's felt going backwards more than Ford's now. Stuff being holding talks notably fishing rights nor point one percent of the UK economy involved in fishing that a major obstacle to a deal, and also the so-called level playing field rules to. Fair competition between the EU and the UK. The UK says that he is not treating it as an equal sovereign partner and is demanding too much that goes beyond a regular trade deal and Bonnie saying that the UK hasn't been showing much willingness to take on board the US priority. So some pretty stiff language from both sides Let's look now at airbnb where there has been a change of policy. Yeah I'm afraid that big party you had planned in your airbnb rental Andrew is going to have to be counseled AIRBNB says the global ban on parties and events listed on its platform is to take effect immediately, occupancy is going to be limited to a mere sixteen people sounds like to me but I guess some of these are pretty big rentals The company says it's doing this public health reasons. As some customers have chosen to take bar and club of behavior into properties rented through the platform. Now, the full of business angle this on Wednesday we heard AIRBNB is to go ahead with its IPO with its share listing. Now, this had been planned for earlier in the one of the most highly anticipated share listings of twenty twenty, and then a news story broke beginning of the year. You may remember it's something virus another of course, really hit the industry which. is they pulled their share-listing, but it's now back on the table listings. Revenue Rather at AIRBNB was down seventy percent in May. But in June things picked up and was down just thirty percent and signs that the summer. Has Been better than that. So airbnb planning to go ahead with their shells not quite sure the valley let's yet, but we'll some more informational nuts in the coming weeks you in parts. Thanks as always for joining us you're listening to the briefing. And finally on today's show our weekly reflection on what the last seven revolutions over the Earth have taught us. Her. We learned this week that the signature headgear of the two thousand and twenty US presidential election will not be the reds baseball cap but these silver tin foil. Fedora US President Benito Cartman was asked flat out what he made of two on the Ding conspiracy theory which claims that actually we're a bit sketchy on the details on the grounds that they don't matter and we don't care but one White House reporter had done her homework or at least had sightseeing. Lee read her way through interminable screens of illiterate online raving by loons y'all who's and halfwits. The theory is this belief that you are secretly saving the world from the Satanic cult of pedophile and cannibals does that sound like something you are behind? I haven't I haven't heard that but Is that supposed to be a bad thing or good thing If if I can help save the world from problems, I'm willing to do it. I'm willing to put myself out there. So we learned the frankly had already begun cultivating suspicions in that direction that the remainder of the two thousand twenty US presidential election campaign is likely to be soundtrack by wistful reminiscence of the lofty noble discourse of its two thousand sixteen predescessor total clown Rodeo that was still we learned that at least one voter still believes that the incumbent is doing a terrific job. Granted that it's the president third smartest son but still. has done a great job in the last three and a half years in any prison history we learned that. Basically be fine as long as it turns out that there are at least sixty, five, million. Americans brighter than Eric. Trump. Anyway. Rhode Island and. Rhode Island. You. Thanks to the other side of America's political I'll. We learned that Rhode Island is famous for something else as well. The Democratic Party conducted the first online convention in American history and it was in many respects and improvement on the usual circus instead of state delegates in silly Straw hats shouting the odds from beneath a blizzard of balloons the two thousand and twenty Democratic Party roll-call saw everyone do a little year revisionist vignette singing something about their state or territory. It was actually weirdly charming or in Rhode Island's case charmingly. Rhode. Island. State Representative Joseph. McNamara. Did his bit standing on a beach next to a figure Lynton, air of menace SPA. Black Shifts. Matching Cova covid Nineteen mosque incongruously proffering a plate of seafood fishermen sell their catches directly to the public and I stayed up appetizer. Calamari. Is available in all fifty states. The CALAMARI comeback. State of Rhode Island casts one vote for Bernie. Sanders is an thirty four votes for the next President Joe. Biden. If. The Republican Party. Take the same approach at they're convention. The floor display will be worth watching perhaps a shirtless wild head drunk taking a brief timeout from wrestling an alligator and a waffle house car park to announce the votes of the and finally state which to be honest wouldn't be a lot less gruesome than what we learned. The GOP dolls have planned the Saint Louis lawyer who gave his gun at protesters outside of his central West and Portland Place? Mansion has been invited to the Republican National. Convention next week so far no date and time for mark, mccloskey's appearance has been released he and his wife Patricia gained national attention this summer after pointing guns at protestors who were passing by gathering outside of their house. The couple has been charged with unlawful use of a weapon by Saint Louis Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner some of us can remember eight years back to the two thousand twelve Republican convention when Clint Eastwood Burgling a chair for eleven minutes seemed like a low point for the Party of Lincoln. Elsewhere, we learned at the old school military coup d'etat is yet to go entirely of fashion President Ibrahim Boubacar cater, of Molly, ushered from Office by Cocky Club gentlemen who awarded their GIUNTA The blandly reassuring nine common in such circumstances, the National Committee for the Salvation of the people. In this instance, one of those phrases which makes as much sense whichever way around you arrange the words and gave the traditional press conference promising to restore democracy at some intriguingly unspecified juncture. Does. Not Threaten. You. Here's The Washington Post done the old packet on Wednesday's briefing or not sure if they're connected directly at this protest movement that has rocked Bamako since June bringing tens of thousands of people into the streets, and that's led by a popular religious leader who leans on the conservative side. Basically. The word in Bamako yesterday today was confusion confusion. You don't know what this will look like the soldiers charge of this movement have announced closed the country's borders imposing a curfew and the general mood is is wait and see what happens. Toya, shredding box wrecking handbrake. Segue into a cuddly animal story. We learned that life may be about to improve radically for German dogs if arguably less. So for German dog owners, a draft law being considered by German legislators will make mandatory twice daily works for a minimum of one hour in total. While we have been unable to confirm as of this broadcast whether or not a dog did in fact, write this bill we have once again prevailed upon Monaco's German neologisms. Desk chief has to underhill who has furnished a couple of options. One impressively official sounding rendering of the Federal Ministry of Agriculture's dog walking low for pet owners, bundesland switch shafts, minister volumes, Honda girl to guessing cassettes and a more metaphysical. Phrase hoping to evoke angst attendant upon being compelled by law to what you're stupid. mutt frolicking daily about in snow and sleet for a whole goddamn our while you shiver resentfully beneath the coat, you've thrown over your pajamas and curse the efficiency and compassion of your government Gase, Ganz? Aga- and yes, we have soundtrack this item with something by bark well spotted it's a cheap shot, but he's German so it works. Just for that. Yes. That was offenbach. It's your own time you're wasting. And that is all for today's edition of the briefing. It was produced by Reese James and Yelling Goffin and ask Judy Manage Day was Louis Allen. The briefing is back on Monday at the same time midday London. Andrew Miller. Thanks for listening. Have a great weekend.
Friday 15 November
"You're listening to the briefing first broadcast on the fifteenth of November. Two Thousand Nineteen. The briefing is brought to you in partnership with Rolex. Hello and welcome to the briefing coming to you. Live from studio one here Midori House in London. I'm Andrew Miller coming up. Lebanon may have a new prime minister but will he be any more popular or more importantly more effective than the lost. While we're on the subject of leaders will be asking whether this one can break up Britain's two party not system. There is no limit to my ambition for Party and our country and today I am standing here as in your candidate for Prime Minister Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson does not lack confidence. We'll assess her claims that she can actually win next month's election and then because it's Friday Hello Fianna was to shake wouldn't you. They of course is the day of Global Council where look at the top five singles of a specific entry today. We look at Ukraine. Strap yourselves in all that and much more coming up in the next sixty minutes on the briefing monocle twenty four And Welcome to today's edition of the briefing with me and Ramallah Lebanon may have a new prime minister two weeks since the resignation of the previous incumbent and Saad Al Hariri in the face of immense popular protests. A consensus appears to have developed among Lebanon's political parties around Mohammad. Safadi the seventy five year old Sephardi A LONG-SERVING MP has previously been Lebanon's Minister of Finance and Minister of Trade and appears to have the endorsement of the largely Sunni Future Movement of Forma I'm a PM Hariri as well as the Shia groups Hezbollah and Amal non join with more on this by Lena. Katiba head of the Middle East and North Africa Program at Chatham House Lina. How is this going to be received on the streets? Will they be on the Louis Joy and relief at the appointment of Moment Safadi completely the opposite is it. The announcement was made late last night. And this spurred action on the streets instead of people you you know saying yes finally we have a new prime minster was completely the opposite. People are saying well. This is just an older version of the previous Prime Minister and sister. They have a similar profile and that both are millionaires or rather billionaires and from the old the political class and basically for the protesters this signals that the political class are definitely disconnected from from what people actually want which is genuine change. I mean this may sound like Glib question but it genuinely isn't isn't possibly the case that actually nobody really wants to be the Prime Minister of Lebanon right at the moment. Well there is also some speculation that the name of Mohammad Safadi is being circulated because no one wants the job and whatever name is circuits under. The circumstances is just not going to be acceptable to the protesters Of course it's going to be a tough job no matter who is in position Even if it's someone who protesters want the old elites Ebanon are not going to basically gift such a person an easy ride however the selection of someone from the the old clause is just step in the face. As far as the protesters are concerned. It shows that the powers that be do not understand what the people people are genuinely full. And I think There are some technocratic figures that would be acceptable to the protesters who yes will not have an easy ride but at least list they would be seen as a way forward. This is not a way forward. This is just stagnation when you talk about resolutions that might be acceptable to the protesters do you you get the sense that there is a consensus about what the protest is actually won't are they seeking mealy a new election and new parliament or are they looking for a a more thoroughgoing dismantling and rebuilding of the political settlement that is existed in Lebanon since the end of the civil war. Well the protesters demands are quite. How I they do? Want the political system to be dismantled. But of course if you're going to demand something you're not going to start with a compromise. You're going to start with the maximum you can get Of course the reality may well be further down the line that the protesters will have to accept some sort of compromise demise some sort of government that has a technocratic kind of character but that does not completely exclude exclude some figures from the existing political cost Right now on the street there is no consensus about what is actually this compromise. Compromise going to be But also formed the political class. We have been seeing and you budging really in terms of their position so if the demands sounds from the protesters are quite high. What the government is offering in return is practically nothing and so I think for the protesters to agree to a compromise is the government has to make the first move? We watching this from afar does rather seem like Lebanon's establishment governing causes. Don't really know what they're supposed to say or do in this situation we've seen President Michel Own Making a a fairly. Ill advised remark to the effect. That people don't like it here. You're welcome to emigrate The Acting Defense Minister Allies Boo Saab sort of making green invocations of the beginning of the civil war in one thousand. Nine hundred seventy five. They they look from a distance very much. Like kind of old men who don't really understand what is happening around the music that the case unfortunately as the case and it does why that people are still under streets is because they can see clearly that this political class does not understand that people's demands are genuine. The the political class still think they can continue to rule Lebanon under the old feudal system that Lebanon had whereby citizens are not really citizens but are more like clients with the leaders acting as their patrons so the people protesting are saying actually want we want a change in the social contract. Ebanon we do not want to be ruled and the sway. We want accountability. We want transparency. We want our needs to be met but these people in power are not used to this the been there for decades and they are only seeing the world through their own eyes and and that's why protesters are saying you're hopeless in terms terms of any potential hope for reform. It just doesn't exist. Why these figures are still ruling the country and that's why the people of Lebanon are largely saying we need you figures in power leader Khattab from Chatham House? Thanks as always for joining us now with a look at the day's headlines here is multiples Daniel Beach. Thank you Andrew Andrew. A man has died in Hong Kong after being hit on the head during clashes between government supporters and protesters. Police say the seventy year old was struck by quote hard objects hurled. Oh by masked rioters meanwhile the Justice Secretary Teresa. Chang has been hurt in a confrontation with protesters in London the US Defense Secretary Mark Asper has told South Korea that it must do more to help with the cost of stationing American troops in the country. Mr made the comments during a high level policy meeting with Senior South Korean defense chiefs in Seoul and a fief has tried to steal two paintings by the Dutch artist Rembrandt from an exhibition in London the intruder spray. Great a police officer in the face as he escaped but the hapless robber managed to leave one of the priceless works behind in the shrubbery of village. Picture gallery those are some of the day's news headlines. I binds now back to you Andrew. Thank you Don Ulan. Nothing warms the heart really quite like a bungled up fifth story just needed to involve a monkey or rebel Russo. Something Still to come we will be asking whether the UK's Liberal Democrats can challenge the UK's two party duopoly and Fernando Augusta Pacheco will be joining us with his global countdown outbound. Do Stay tuned monocle rolex. Bring you the pioneers. The pioneers is a brand new series. That tells the stories of people improving the planet. Hey how Rolex supports these innovators with whom they share a passion to safeguard in the F- future generations gain precious insight into the fresh thinking that is disrupting received wisdom for the better and learn how Phyllis action continues to be the crucial driver of change. The Pioneers in partnership with Rolex. You're listening to the briefing with me. Andrew it's time now to take a longer look at the day's big stories with L.. News panel which today is Oscar de Rivera professor in international law and international affairs at Birkbeck University of London and Vincent mcilvanney. UK correspondent for Euronews. Let's start here in the UK which appears to be assisting with both brexit and it's not general. Election despite swiftly accumulating evidence that neither is going to radically well in what is depending on perspective. Either a brilliant gag or confirmation of the notion that the u actually is an unswerving bureaucratic monolith with no sense of humor. The European Commission mission is launching infringement proceedings against the UK for its failure to nominate a candidate as new EU commissioner as the UK is still technically obliged to do. Vincent not sure what's going on here I can't tell whether the EU is being really really dense or trying to be funny. I mean a mix of both can be things that the one time I mean. I think this is quite antagonistic. I think you know the. UK is set to leave at the end of January. Mary I think the idea that hasn't famous heard that before we have. Yeah but I think we are on the party gathering that this election is showing that and I think the idea that we would this fascinating I mean the the defense that you could government is using those under purdah rules. which are the rules for our general elections? You can't make this kind of appointment. British law says this and and the EU saying that e you treaty law trump's at is a bit like guys. Check yourselves like this. Is the reason that many in Britain simply want to go. Do you mandating that your law supersedes. The sovereign of this country is something that winds up so maybe it is a bit of traveling on our way out. But I don't think anyone here is going to Cat Too much about you know. Listen to both into the Boris Johnson. Did today he was not asked about this people on the doorsteps on crying out for Britain to send its new. E YOU COMMISSIONER I I dare say not. I suspect quite a lot of people on the doorsteps. Have no idea that Britain even had any you commissioner. What one actually does all day Oscar? Boris Johnson would be more all human I think not to have been at least tempted to nominate nargile garage for the position but to the extent that these stories to cut through it all it does kind of work for him. Doesn't it if if he wants to. As Vincent suggesting leverage this into once again we see the the bureaucrats of Brussels telling us what we can and cannot do. I mean it's. It's a bit have a gift isn't it. There's no doubt about it diesel beat of a gift Idiots very unfortunate timing to say the least But I agree. Read that I don't think people really care that much about The you know the details of the story as will most of them will translate them into our you go you see the European Union again. Trying to impose itself But again. I don't think that most people will pay much attention. Vincent we should talk about the election more widely Do you get the sense that this is still a fundamentally brexit election or are of the issues starting starting to cut through. I mean both Labor in the Conservatives seem for reasons of their own actually caught desperate to avoid talking about brexit. Yeah I mean I was out with Jamie Kuban. Last tweaking and their strategy was on the first official day of the election. Do the big brexit speech get it out of the way and then talk about anything else every day. They've had a theme this week. They've been talking about work right so equality of pay between men and women who juicing the working week to four days today is that big buying back national infrastructure that talking about giving free broadband everyone about buying a British Telecom's the UK provider so they are really trying to move away from. Brexit compensation away from that the Tories much more focusing on brexit but going going slightly around the country as I have been speaking to people. I mean yes everyone accepts. Brexit is a big issue but no one really wants in my experience. They fall to go into detail talking about it. I feel like the country as a whole. The bandwidth of this country is being taken up so much my breakfast. The past few years people wanting to other areas that are being neglected the the health service crime schools and things like this and Labor's policy many are saying it is wacky and it is a bit wild and no country attempt to this before and their spending plans are huge but others pointing out well government services universal credit which is this behemoth benefits that it's being rolled out around the country taking over all kinds of other benefits. It's only available online. You have to have instant access to manage it. And when they're closing jobcentres which provided some Internet access and places like libraries have. I've been de funded. So they don't have as many computers. There's less of them around. If your forcing society to adopt a fully online for government services model then maybe you do need to do something thing to help people with that group and Oscar. A subplot of this week's electioneering has been a a slight overlap with your particular area of expertise which is Latin America. Ah Jeremy Corbyn the leader of the opposition with his. He's thumb on the pulse of the concerns of the common man has ever a tweeted a gesture of sympathy for the unholy Bolivian. Vian President Evo Morales the question thus prompted his. What's your view on the interpretation of Latin American affairs by hey that sector of the European left Corbin represents does it strike you as something that is irrevocably rooted in nineteen seventies idea of what South America is like the forces in play? That just strikes me. There's something vaguely patronizing about assuming that Bolivians are not capable of infecting an amount of domestic entirely on their own. Oh bullying us are perfectly capable. I'm cutting any amount of CAO's Particularly Latin American oligarchy Sunday have done so and and that was indeed the casing so let me be very clear. Jeremy Corbyn was not wrong. He is right here. These classical general school In fact The the problem is that coups. Are you know curious thing. Those who make a coup never admit They have made a Kuu. They will always say that they are just Restoring democracy and delivering on the will of the people and the very civilly there will move onto elections. Ah Now to say that what happened. Bluewater military coup and let me say it again. It was a military coup is not to justify everything morale this has done And is not to paint a than tire beleaguered. Opposition with broad brush there were sectors of the Willian opposition disillusioned uh with Morales for different reasons. Some on the left because they thought he was conceding. Too much to nearly Rehavam although some more of the center because they Where this edition with his attempt to continue in power even though it wasn't his choice but the Supreme Court's choice he fair? New Morales won the elections fair and square The role played by the Organization of American States. In general and particularly secretary-general Whistle Magris being uncriticised widely in region. Not only by Leftist media leftist governments but also by centrists and liberals such as inspector in in Columbia everybody in the Americas knows the these walls a coup and he would be shameful and very problematic if US Journal of this commentators and politicians Where to continue to parallel the line that Trump gave us according to which this is a triumph for democracy smokeless. It isn't these very serious step backwards for democracy in the region Issa very problematic one and believing us are going to suffer so You know just to finish it. We're going to talk about fetishism Well let's take a look at the inversion off off you know Krisztian Economic Theun Signs You know which is being done by Janina News. The South proclaimed president of Bolivia who oh sparked the only got four percent of the vote in the last October twentieth election and the fact that they're mobilizing the signs of a a Jewish man who took the side of the poor precisely to crush the hopes of the poor. Well let's stay in Latin America and take look Chile the government of which is one of several around the world right now. Trying to think of means to persuade angry citizens to go home. Chile has been beset by weeks of protests sparked by a rise in metro phase in Santiago these demonstrations have frequently turned violent. Leaving at least twenty people dead. Chile's Congress has now reached agreements on reforming the country's constitution which in fairness may have been due overhaul having been signed off on in nineteen eighty during the miserable rule of military dictator Augusta Vincent it's as we are seeing in various datelines around the world. It is quite difficult. When a plurality of the people take to the streets and determined to stay there to persuade him to go back home again and this is not a question of saying who is right or who's wrong or having any particularly sympathy for whichever government? They're demonstrating against but is something like this going to work making a big gesture like saying we will reform the constitution or should protest sparked by actually relatively trivial things like an increase in metro phase actually be addressed at that level. I think think I'm GonNa Approach in two ways. One is the general political theory. So you know these people are aggrieved about you know. The actress costs the rise in the tube. And we'll so you know. The Metro fare was the only known. But I mean and you know the thing that to me is almost a third of Chilean workers are employed in informal non-permanent empowerment jobs. And this is something we're seeing around the world. If young people are unemployed or the kinds of jobs they're getting Zero hours contracts flexible working none of the rights that Older generations enjoyed. You can understand why the phrase okay boomer is becoming very popular you know. Bad Advice boomers gave me is been trending ending a week with kind of things that young people being told and when they feel insecure and work or there isn't work they are taking to the streets now just to step back on a purely practical level one of the things I love finding out I went to a in the UK journalists go on courses with the police to learn. And you go to a fake town where you cover an actual protest tests. They get old. Cop was to be protesters. New Copies marshalling at all. And what they say to. You is the thing that we love about this country when it comes to protesters is the weather it. Because he's old out practicalities the reason that you have Water cannons is not to blow people down. It is to make as many people as possible wet and cold and damp and uncomfortable so that they go home so they off the streets and that is why I think when you look at extinction rebellion in the UK. What's very well in the summer when you WANNA party and have a week on a living on a bridge and it's all fun and Games when you do an October in the rain and the cold? It's not as fun and so in places in the world like you you know Chile Like in Hong Kong very temperate climate. It's real easy to stay out in the streets and keep this thing going when you look at like occupy you know seven or eight years ago. the PLA- you know when it came to the U. K.. One works through the summer but when the winter turn the numbers fell. Same thing in New York I think part of it is just that practicality of how along people stay out Chili's government probably will be waiting awhile for the weather to turn that Nasty Oscar. The gesture of constitutional reform is not the first suggestion in. They've made they've also cancelled rises in energy prices. They've promised to reform pensions and healthcare etc.. Deep Sea here among Chile's current government. A sincere NIA desire to reform and meet the people halfway or are they just trying to do. If we just say enough stuff people will just lose interest in this and go home the latter I've been talking on Chilean media and with journalists and graduates the whole You know the whole week and what they tell us two things. The Constitutional Constitutional Reform Agenda was forced upon the government because people in Chilean know that historically the the economic model of their they are protesting against has been embedded in the constitution so that he can not be either reform or repealed So they know Oh that but they also know. This is the second thing that Penis attempt to control the constitutional reform. The agreement says that Congress will rewrite ride the constitution perhaps on the portions of the constitution will not do. This is not enough and of course this is not a climate driven protests these These is a historical grievance by The last generation who is seeing that their future is completely completely foreclosed. What they tell you what people tell you in the streets of Santiago but I eat so concepcion etcetera is Well will they have stolen. Everything from us We have no pensions. We have no education. We have no health. We have nothing to lose. That's the thing once you have nothing to lose. You will stay on the streets until you get what you want and what they want out and while they want more so is the economic omic model of which she there was ground zero for gun okay. We'll finally on today's news panel to a report by malnourish university custody in Sweden which has been looking into the subject of meetings. At which point. I will confess that I spent the last meeting. I attended writing the script which shows how much attention I pay anyway anyway. What Momo's Boffins have discovered is that meetings are not really so much about making decisions or getting things done as they are a form of therapy a forum in which people can either according to preference flaunt their status or express their frustrations Vincent? How do you flaunt your status or express your frustrations in meetings eatings? I mean everyone hates an overly long meeting. I think you know I think when it comes to journalism meetings that can be quite quite you know newsroom meetings can be. You've kind of they can be quicker. I think the normal Koi easings category as is the case here. They can be mercifully brief because we have to get the show on the exact exactly. That is very true. I think I mean my one. My one bugbear. These days about meetings is I like meetings device free because I previously previously worked in organizations where half the people in our city daily meeting people weren't paying attention because we all know that device is and I think I also became aware of It was a very difficult meeting once where it became clear to me that two people were texting each other back and forth and marshalling the meeting the way that they wanted wanted to go and egging each other on and stuff like this. Well there were bad actors So I would like meetings device free. That's my solution to ask you in academia -demia our meetings in particular other particular plague. Because this is this is what the report suggested. That is more and more jobs I guess have what you might think of. As less tangible the outcomes people not actually building stuff or making stuff that does become an awful lot of sitting around tables talking about stuff is. Is this something you're noticing increasing. You are nodding ruefully. ruefully there for the benefit totally it particularly the last six years. There is a clear correlation between the further privatization higher education. It's magic manager ally. I station and the fact that we have these stupid meetings that go on for over two hours. That's my rule of thumb. And I say so. I'm totally biased. Because I was part of the administration the sheep of my school until last December four six years I was subjected to meeting upon meetings after meetings meetings and then after the meeting you have to report on the meeting Ede because Kim this worse yes I think so. I think I was condemned to hell for I. Six years eighties counterproductive. That's the thing if meetings are supposed to either allow people to vent their grievances or to speed APP the processes of management will they don't that's precisely because of what we just heard And also He's also tendency to allow people to vendor fury in these meetings so that they feel that they have been heard but in fact they haven't because the minute You know you go up the management ladder. You realize that these things never make it APP There so that easiness of very very problematic automatic a rule of thumb a meeting that goes on for longer than forty five minutes is already problematic and I will allow people to Go on their phones and so on and look at facebook at that point Vincent but this is the thing I think it's overlooked about meetings. If for example you have eight people having a one hour meeting. That's that's not really a one hour meeting now is a cumulative entire working day that an organization has lost while these eight people have a meeting about something I mean. Wouldn't egg Tahema remove help. I mean maybe simple way. I think to keep them. Meeting short is to have everyone stand up. That's why a lot of News Ra meetings. Take place like the debrief in multiple news. Organizations after programs is standing up the kind of news running to the meeting at the news desk in the morning is done standing up and I think that just keeps everything just going a little bit more Pacers. There are certain changes that you can make to get make everybody uncomfortable as possible. Essentially Yeh Portal those of very good ideas indirectly alphabet turning. I didn't live mice. Loose will be in better although unfortunately in Missouri campus there are too many of them already. Are you going to a meeting this afternoon. I'm on Sabbatical. Try as therapy meetings after meetings. Vincent what's the next one you're due to attend Massively have I'm on the road for the next couple of weeks for the elections so I just I will phone into a meeting from time to time but uh uh that's worst that's worse than a normal meeting the meeting with the disembodied voice funding for both parties. It is frustrating But but I mean it is the modern world. I you know I previously worked somewhere where you had to facetime in and that can that can be quite annoying as well because someone said. Did you realize that when you're face timing in use your faces massive on the screen and so any little I roll or Jesse you make very much exaggerate. That's what I meant by counter the productivity that right there is why I have never used facetime and never will Vincent Macaroni and Oscar. The Rivera. Thank you both very much for joining us. You are listening to the briefing with me and Ramallah general elections he in the UK a over the last century or so have usually been essentially a contest between two parties Labor unconservative. The dream ushering a third party into power. Either between between or around them has been a recurrent one in more recent times the principal vehicle of this ambition has been Liberal Democrats. Who did well enough in? Two Thousand and tend tend to form a coalition government with the Conservatives for which they were Julie punished five years later losing forty nine of the fifty seven seats. They held four. Years is a long long time in politics however certainly long enough and the twenty nine thousand nine election certainly strange enough to ask. Is this Liberal Democrats moment again I'm going to put with that question right now to Shawn Kemp who worked as an advisor to the Lib Dem's when they were in that coalition government between ten and twenty fifteen Sean the short question I is it it maybe by the moment do I honestly think that they are about to storm into government as the majority George Party. No I they all talking as if they think they can do that. But they're doing they're kind of have to have to and I think people say. Oh but you're gonNA look very foolish when you're eighty win fifty seats and I was going to care after the election. I'm one of the criticisms the Democrats do get in focus groups when you speak to voters is people often say about them. You sound to be apologetic. Each you don't actually want to be in power so Jo Swinson. The party leader is doing saying yes. I believe I could be prime minister and really detrow big herself in the party up in that way just to give just try and sort of break room. Give the impression that actually the victims do actually want to run things and they just want show ambition. Do I think they're actually GonNa win it now. Do I think they might make some good gains. Yeah I think they might take. What realistically speaking than what constitutes success because after various defections and shakeups and other things and indeed another general election since the wipeout in two thousand fifteen? The Liberal Democrats held twenty seats in the last parliament. What would seem mark decent return? I think within the party I think if they go seventy seats rating good return off I. This is what do you think that's ambitious because what you tend to get even though they were Democrats if I'd much Great improvements in their poll ratings. And so on when when you get to an election and when it's between two very polarizing leadership candidates in bryce Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn they call it the squeeze the conservative. He's like you vote Democrat. You'll get labor labor savings conservatives and the Liberal Democrat vote just get squeezed already seeing slight signs that in the polls I oh I think frankly if I end up with thirty five to forty seats when you consider that the party was neely extinct off the twenty fifteen election and when you consider the earlier on this year in the UK you had new centrist parties forming and people saying this Liberal Democrats that dumb. They need to join this new party so it would actually be if you looked at. You know sort of broader context. It was actually quite good if they ended up like thirty forty seats. That would actually be pretty good. Historically look where they were I think because yes they feel like the whole pro remain anti brexit momentum is behind them. They would probably feel a bit disappointed with. I'm not sure they should be. We'll come back to the brexit aspect aspect of their campaign shortly. But that that thing you mentioned the squeeze and you're right it's a common trope Tori say liberal. Democrats are basically labor in disguise. Labor says Liberal Democrats Tories. He's in disguise but there is of course a bit more bite to the Labor version of that charged in there used to be because the Liberal Democrats did go into power with conservatives. Do you get the sense that it's been hard for the Liberal Democrats to get a lot of their potential and indeed natural voters to forgive them for that. I think there's a particular group of voters will never forgive them. But those are the voters who essentially voted for the Liberal Democrats because they thought Liberal Democrats basically where the Labor Paul Table Table Democrats encouraged people to think that often And we're perfectly happy to take their votes and I think there's a group of those people who said hang on. You basically acted like you were the Labor party but you didn't like ID calls And and we never GONNA go back to you. We feel betrayed. I think those people go I I think people are essentially essentially a Labor voters anyway. voting for us because the particular seats they lived in. I think they're probably never coming back I but I I think that's the policy in a sense. The coalition will happen to the Party is made the party to grow up about the fact that he can't just appeal to in seats where they need to win over Labour voters try and it sounds more like labor in seats. They need to conservative voters transcend more of the conservatives and that was a very successful strategy for long period of time but the moment that party had touchy choose go into coalition it would have been a disaster whoever they went into coalition. With 'cause if they'd go into college with the Labor Party or the conservative more conservative inclined people would have just vanished. Never come back so it's made the party. I think revisit how actually portrays itself kind of votes it reaches but it hasn't wave goodbye to a large chunk of people. The flagship policy this time out is of course just going. All in on abolishing brexit revoke article fifty no second referendum. None of that. We're not doing. We're just pulling the plug on Mrs Mad at isn't going to work is that do you think a sitting coming across as a a sincere principle or is do you think there's a recognition ignition among the voters that that's kind of what they had to do. Because that's the only position that was left between the conservative saying full steam ahead get brexit done labor saying probably probably sort of but there'll be a deal in another vote or something. There wasn't really another wasn't really another line to choose was the politically. It was the sensible things to she cited the only route available to them to stay distinct. IGT think voters Do CNC obsession because it actually is insane position. Democrats hate BREXIT REX and would like to stop it and if they win election they were stopping that he's actually what the vast majority of the party thinks so. I think the lesseps was where the Liberal Democrats were previously Lee. Where not so much in the last few years a second referendum? But it's not that long ago Liberal Democrats were arguing for referendum on Europe. They wanted them every halt saying. Oh well we probably hopefully should have one because they wanted to actually keep hold of you guys were saying earlier because they wanted to keep podavur skeptic voters Liberal Democrats found themselves saying these circumstances in which we think think should be a referendum on Europe. Just they win seats. In South West of England quite eurosceptic so as well number one of the things coalition where circumstances have forced them to actually for political reasons. Actually Hoda position is much more sincerely where they actually lined. I think there are no for campaigning purposes. They're in a much better position. Is there at shape to sell this stuff. What they actually think and stops of hedging hedging? What they're saying depending on what seat they're standing in their much more strident and confident sounding partying? They once where I think on the to return to that subject of the squeeze and you mentioned that the two parties are led by two extremely polarizing men in Boris Johnson. And Jeremy Corbyn the two Meja parties that is do you get the sense in terms of this election Jo Swinson. WHO's not been leader of the liptons? All that long is recognized enough that basically speaking enough voters even know who she is. The Liberal Democrat leaders never recognize enough and even not not even Donald Kennedy appropriate to most high profile ones had to be the leader for very long periods of time for their noticed a pro at several election cycles the only other person sneeze managed to break through in any form. Was Nick Clegg. Because the Conservative Party agreed to have a freeway debate including Nick Lake which the whole click mania thing was because all all of a sudden people watching on. TV somebody in a national debate going up against Prime Ministerial candidate. Who they didn't know he was? This guy seems quite impressive. And and that was where the host of the momentum of that election victims came from. That's what Joe Twins so desperate to get involved next question. How important is it just in terms of electioneering and to get her opposite? Boris Johnson Jeremy Corbyn to allow voters to make a comparison. I think he's hugely important. If live damage when big break free I mean. You can't just assume a big break. Free will happen. But the fact is that people have made their minds up at Jimmy. Cobaine Boris Johnson Eliza. Lotta people have not made their minds up about Jo Swinson because they don't know anything about Jo Swinson. If you get her in a a national debate they will be allowed chunk of people who see and well liked her. They just don't miss by the law of averages we'll have to happen. Let alone as good because I think she could be in that kind of format so huge important I think if they want to make the big sweeping bright crew there needs to be some kind of national moment otherwise much more about the long haul it will be Jo Swinson become a known figure in British politics among most normal voters after a couple of actions. It's just it's the way it works. You have to fight to be noticed Shawn Kemp. Thanks as always for joining us. You're listening to the briefing the talk. You're listening to the briefing having on monocle. Twenty four time now to ponder what the last seven days have contributed to the sum of human wisdom. We learned this week that some people never will in the UK. BREXIT party leader. Nigel garage made made the widely expected announcement that he's glorious. Storming of the Palestinians of British democracy next month will be scaled back to an apologetic tapping the drawbridge. The BREXIT party will not contest the three hundred seventeen seats the conservatives at the last election this was is news to many brexit party candidates who had paid one hundred pounds each even to have the applications considered and had made further investments in has suddenly canceled campaigns money. They could have spent on snake oil magic beings or Parch as tower bridge. But we learn that despite. Is Everything one select. Strata of British people is actually enjoying this election people who make a living making fun of British politics for whom this represents wants a bounty iskoe new copy of material. He is Patrick kid from the Times appearing on the briefing on Monday. Well you never know what you can get real uncomfortable. Disastrous can always happen coveted. Boris Johnson is now leader of the Conservatives. Rather than Theresa. May that makes that more likely. The 2017 election may may ram a presidential sort of personality. Let election campaign not realizing she didn't have a personality and so actually it was very very to cover. She didn't use Boris assault. On whatever people may think of is politics he generates news very June the referendum campaign in two hundred six thousand lots visit images of voice kissing kissing fish and things like that on one occasion in Dartford where there was a peak laurie with this site and he lets the cabinet. Press officer said he's GonNa Drive. It's it's not drive. It and the engine started his definitely going to drive. Oh God is embarrassed. Careened off and he's always going to have something to say something about you just never. The Cleveland handles as we did not learn however what is in a report by parliament's intelligence and Security Committee looking at Russian interference in recent British elections and possibly more significantly referendums. The report has been in the possession of ten Downing Street since last month and cleaned plead for publication. The government has decided not to release it until off to the coming election however foam conservative justice. Secretary David Gordon Okay. Who chaired the committee? Which wrote the report had some distinctly non-party line views on this? Perhaps this is why he is now running as an independent and urging people well not to vote for his old party. I just think it is too much of a risk full the economy if we'll get into Fundus ohs crashing out Without the end of twenty twenty and I don't think the policy is being straight with the British beef and listen to the choices that we face. Listen the implications of this choice only Atlantic's of the show. We learned that the impeachment proceedings investigating the conduct of US President Donald Trump going to be as edifying spectacle as might have been imagined. I want to emphasize at the outset while I am aware that the committee has requested my testimony Boni as part of impeachment proceedings. I am not here to take one side or the other or to advocate for any particular outcome of these proceedings. The first witnesses to testify stolen serious career diplomats did their best but could not quite disguise the impression that they are innocent narrating a clown car demolition Derby elsewhere we learned the melancholic fraternity of exiled leaders has swelled by one as ousted Bolivian in president. Evo Morales was granted asylum in Mexico a popular destination for the on the host and unwanted as the historian. Alex von Tunes. Sleman reminded US on Tuesdays briefing. Kind of course trucks Kita jacker from Guatemala. Fidel Castro. Was There Furlan where he met her. was in a House party in Mexico City photo of Spaghetti and even the shower of around with everyone else people have been there aficionados of obscure if not outright chaotic diplomatic spats were Agog to learn that Kosovo is increasingly the victim of finger steepling Serbian machinations to reduce its coterie of allies Ghana became the sixteenth country which had recognized Kosovo to decide that it would recognize Kosovo no longer Monaco's Balkans correspondent guide alone explained why on Thursdays briefing these D- recognitions that have taken place a bringing Kosovo down towards the fifty percent Malk of UN member states which recognised Kosovo's independence. We learned this week that even the most brutal demonstrations ends of the elemental. Fury's will not teach people what they are determined not to learn in Australia an area larger than Cyprus has been incinerated by Oy bushfires shocking. Not only in this scale but they're timing by historical standards. It is far far too early in the summer for this kind of thing though. Australia's deputy prime minister is among those who'd rather see climate change as someone else's invention than his problem. We've had pause Australia. Seems since well from Tom Begin and what people need now is a little bit of sympathy understanding and and rule assistance. I I need help. They need shelter wise to ask questions that need deriving some pure in the capital city greenies at this time pending Venice with due acknowledgement that. They will always kind of asking for trouble by building a city in an actual lagoon. We learned that local authorities have somehow managed to be unprepared for Venice's canals ending up in Venice's houses restaurants and museums. He's Monaco's culture editor. Kiara Romola conversation about building a tidal barrier to protect the city began decades ago not project called mosaic is still far from completion marred by overspending and corruption scandal and to go back to where we came in in a week another week in which those who complain about being governed by elites of done quite a good job job of demonstrating water. We were asking leaks to governance in the first place. The journalist Joel Stein told us why he's written a book defending those who probably need defending least i. I am not talking about rich people. I'm talking about the intellectual elite so these are the people who care less about having a yacht than giving a tedtalk these are yeah. I think the Monica listeners. So talking to people who care much more about ideas then gold plating everything in their house and we thought sweep of the horizon from the ivory retire in the Metropolitan Bubble phenomenal twenty four. I'm Andrew Miller still to come on today show. Chiara remember who did hear from just now. We'll be reviewing the morning newspapers and then Manda will be joining us. Full the weekly global countdown do stay. I tuned Muslim Rolex. Bring you the pioneers. For the founder of Rolex Hans Wills dove the world was like a living laboratory he began to. I use it as a testing ground for his watches from the Nineteen Thirties. Sending them to the most extreme locations supporting explorers ventured into the unknown but the world's changed as the twentieth century unfolds exploration for pure discovery has given way to it relation as a means to preserve the natural world rolex continues this legacy of it's founder supporting the explorers of day on the new mission to make the planet perpetual. Lend more with the pioneers in partnership with Rolex and here with the Italian newspapers is Kiara Ramallah Acura. We did just hear you talking about. Vanessa's my understanding. You are going to do more of that. Yes indeed I mean. Obviously it's possibly the biggest item of news for the week in Italy at the moment and it's still still dominating the front pages largely of La Stampa here for you where it is the the front page news content. Prime Minister is proposing a new packed between the central government and the local governments to fix the situation. Now as you correctly pointed out though it's not news that Venice is in trouble on this front and people have been attempting pretending to attempt to address this for some time. Yes what's what's really worrying is the occurrence of equality. which is the Italian term? I'm for the title. Floods in in Venice has increased incredibly over the last few years and is is getting worse and worse and the project for mosaic. which is is that the name for the title Bar is has been discussed for decades and decades? It's almost finish ninety. Four percent finished but still not functional obviously obviously wasn't able to be deployed this week and it's been marred of the years with corruption allegations and all sorts of other really terrible. Oh things and what's even perhaps worse vollers says there's a conversation going on at the moment about how by the time is finished which could be twenty twenty twenty twenty one It might be obsolete. Anyway which is which is a story of kind of bureaucracy and infrastructure in Italy. But it's really try. Tragic story of infrastructure infrastructure in Italy and and also conversations wider than that. And the reason why I've brought you La Stampa here is because as a really excellent piece by karate who's an architect and urban Est.. He's talking about the fact that the conversation needs to be about Venice and the city and the citizens of Venice taking care or they've got so many people have moved out of Venice. The city is really real city anymore. It's time for people to take responsibility. The next front page in your Sheaf is Corriere della Sella. Yes indeed. I've brought you this because across the three repos we've got a very important new front page news story which is about Stephanou cookie A man who was killed in police custody After many Eh twos and froze with justice finally the to be nearly which is the Italian voice similar to police have been condemned and And therefore It's a very important moment because it's one of those situations where justice finally after after an insane amount of twist and turns being served and this is the very very very important case that's dominated the front pages in Italy for years and years and his and finally this is. This is the end seal. And we've got Stephanie steady louder his hand has been kissed by I guess proving the point that that also has in their own interest to fix the image of of their own force via this and finally moving moving along to La Repubblica and this is the the out of office peregrinations of Matteo Salvini. Yes quite it's interesting because a lot of public is the only paper WHO's leading reading on this. And they're leading on the fact that a number of demonstrators came out in Bologna to protest against Salvini and number of people who protested was higher than the people who did go to his rally however this is a situation a local election. That's going to take place in Emilia. Romagna in January immediate on your is traditionally one of the reddest rate regions of Italy if not possibly the register vote And there's election there in January and the two candidates are actually actually neck and neck. Almost the League can actually make inroads in mill roaming around Bologna. which as you correctly correctly point out is a city with a longstanding left-wing tradition and? It's very possible. I mean at the moment. The left-wing candidate is still leading from the the latest. Polls that I've had a look at but his head the center right coalition candidate is doing very well as well which is a sign of the incredible power that Slovenia is having in this country in Umbria. One just a few Just just very recently. And he's trying signed to ride on the effect now he's saying he'll ride on the effect to prove that these regions can liberated Ramallah. Thank you as always for joining us. You are listening into the briefing on monocle. Twenty four yeah and finally owned today's briefing. It is it's Friday entities Fernando Augusta per chak. Oh which can of course mean only one thing is the global countdown. Wear in we tick off the top five of the top of of somebody or others POPs. I think we've already done the big reveal in the introduction here. It's Ukraine this week. It's Ukraine indeed and I think I love the music taste of Ukraine. Oh I I. I did dance in discotheques in Kiev. Remember when they hosted You're of course I have been to Kiev. Did Not however dance in the disco in Kim. If though and this is a true story I went I was tantalized by an entertainment. Guide listing for one of Kiev's better hotels which has a revolving in cocktail lounge and me and the photographer. Can we thought that'll be nice. Let's go and have a nightcap. The revolving cocktail lounge Enjoy the views from the summit and so and so we went into this hotel and paid for admission to the revolving cocktail lounge which we discovered was in the basement. Well I mean literally views right well. Amazing views of the other tables near the wolf as he sat by this bar which in fairness revolve So they didn't really lie to US but Yeah that that is rather colored. My opinion of kids. It's not life ever since but what might to move seamlessly alone because this place was playing fairly pestilential music as I recall what is quite a good chance that the people in that revolving cocktail lounge in the basement tonight. We'll be listening to out number five we have. I'm sure there will be listening to Russian. Comedian Alexander River Right. And it's funny because you know how the song is called Alcoholic. One of the lines of the song that you hear in the minute is despite your pretty face. You're an alcoholic doc. I mean he is. The whole song is making fun of that that thing that is quite permanent in those countries I know sounds awkward. Sound a bit awkward making fun of People's you know quite serious disease really in a upbeat disco song which I'm assuming it's going to be so have a listen please it does. Does he have other songs about. OCD eating disorders. Or is it just alcoholism. Well all I know that he's also an actor and he's most famous film one of the biggest hits in Russia's our box office history is called Naughty Grammar this clearly no beginning to raise tyler and also of course not grammar partout as well yes. Yeah so I I may never know at number four and I am at least sensing that the only way you can possibly be up. We have. It's Ukrainian pop duo so a local act. It's Virginia Law which means time and glass. The song is called law. Let's hear it is it easy did just get on easy but de I somehow knew it was going to sound like that. I mean the the video is amazing technicolor. I it's. They're doing very well in Ukraine effing. They're one of the most successful pop. Duo was there at the moment. I mean we've got three more or if these to go. I was kind of hoping that the Ukrainian top five was largely going to be composed of interminable accordion ballads about tractors. Any of the remaining three songs going to to be an interminable accordion ballot about attractor. If you're expecting that it will get much much worse for you. especially in them with three. I have to say Andrew. The she sings in Spanish. Actually because Raggi tones becoming quite big there in Ukraine Ukrainian artist in Ukraine and artists. And Amy's she's one of those mentors on the x factor shows was there. She also has a sports clothing brand as you do. You know you have to you know I know I do exactly. The song is called elephants. Which of course is elephant in Spanish? Thank you boy elegant. Dome Oh It's difficult for me to speak to translate the lyrics in a family. You can't imagine right is is the elephant perhaps a metaphor or allegory. For something else is is what you're saying that the song is not literally literally about an immense blundering Pachyderm yes Ukraine is big metaphors in. Okay so Ukraine is big on metaphors. We've learned that. The elephant in elephant does not necessarily elite represent an elephant. Good to know at number two number two and other very odd Band is code at. I think they're from Russia There's not much information around around all in up well. The song is called a beekeeper and it was a bit curious. Is this a metaphor. Perhaps but when I saw the video you see kind of some some people dancing In kind of you know where the beasts are you know in you know in the high Quite awkward they're not dressed as beasts but they're trying for the Beeson please aren't dressed as bees or the dancers aren't says an address wouldn't have to other they actually dancing or is the thing that it's actually bees that they're they're they've kind of been beset by bees and they are reacting accordingly. There's so much to dig into that. I think we should have more philosophical discussion but before that show listen to the to the song if we must over possibly allegorical oracle possibly not that is that his beeper by Rosser and number one andrew. I'm not very happy. This actually is the worst because I quite enjoy the top five so far in a way. well it was the Kremlin claim of the Russian hip hop scene. Again bar is that perhaps very high and again extremely sexist lyrics. I mean I can tell you that let's hear it. The song is called actually sad song. Perhaps it is a bit sad playing us out then. I think we can let this go. VAT At long. Who is this? It's a thrill pill Eggert. Create an Morgan Stan with sets have out. Yeah I did got it. That was number one in Ukraine a country which frankly should go stand in the corner forbid look at it shoes and think about what what it has done. Fernando Augusta. Thank you as always for joining us with your global countdown. That is all for today. The briefing was produced by restraints and microsiping under such Viola Viola. GOFFIN and Jackie Mojtaba S. Judy manage it was Kenya Scarlett. I'm Andrew Mullah. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend uh-huh
Friday 7 June
"You're listening to the briefing, first broadcast on the seventh of June two thousand nineteen on monocle twenty four. Hello and welcome to the briefing coming to you live from studio, one here, Madari house in London. I'm Andrew Miller coming up Mexico's since troops to its border to deal with the immigration crisis. It's southern border has Mexico buckled to president, Donald Trump's threat of tariffs, also ahead. Our panelists will look at the latest development in British politics, whether the labor party should really be celebrating a by-election win and the latest in the maneuverings to become the UK's next prime minister later in the show. We'll hear from the director and three of the subjects of the documentary knock down the house chronicling four insurgent campaigns in last year's Democratic Party primaries in the United States. This. That moment in time where I had to really challenge myself that it was necessary in that if I was silent I was complicit plus the latest business news, a look at the morning, papers and a chat with Monaco's fashion editor all coming up on the briefing on monocle twenty four. And welcome to the briefing with me. Andrew molo. We start with a story about troops being deployed to Mexico's border in an attempt to staunch an inflow of migrants and, or make a country's president look like he's serious about staunching and inflow of migrants in this instance, however, the troops are Mexican and they're being sent to Mexico's border with Guatemala. Six thousand members of Mexico's national guard are to be deployed by president Andre Manuel. Lopez Obrador to deter migrants from Guatemala and points further south who have been heading through Mexico on route to the United States joined with more on this by Natalia Sabra via perria professor of Latin American history at the university of Kent Natanya. Is this a direct reaction to President Trump's threat to impose tariffs on Mexican exports until they do something about the migrant ex flows with that? Without a doubt. Manila, one, I got to power saying that he would protect migrants traveling through Mexico because the influx right now into the US is not from Mexicans, but from central Americans and Donald Trump has found this way of pressuring Mexico quite effective, because this is the first thing lupus overload is doing to stop migrants. How is that likely to play with Mexican voters though, especially will they perceive this, as first and foremost, a capitulation to President Trump, who is obviously not popular man in Mexico. Or is there actual concern among Mexicans about illegal immigration? There are concerns because says, I as I mentioned, it is not Mexicans were migrating to the United States anymore at central Americans and done the electoral problems that he that Lopez would have are quite minimal. There's no reelection. He's just been elected. So he might lose some popularity but. He'd lose much more of the economy, the economy tanks because of the tariffs, will, we should look at that potential economic impact. Because what President Trump has proposed or threaten these is fairly severe. It's a it's a five percent tariff on Mexican exports to the United States rising by another five percent every month until October, at which it would be they would be all under. Asholi insupportable twenty-five percent is anybody actually looked into what damage that would do to Mexico's economy? I don't think that there is any doubt that this would be extremely harmful to Mexican economy. They say that they sneeze in the US and the Mexico catches a cold, so they really have a very integrated economic system with the US. They have all the Makila businesses that are on the border. And that one of the reasons why people are not migrating into the US anymore is because they have employment in Mexico. We looked at the deployment at self the six thousand national guardsmen is there in element of Feodor about this will they actually make any real difference to the southern border. Well, there is a huge amount of theatre going on the thing is that in the last couple of years, they have on the caravans migrants have been gathering speed putting together potential migrants through social media and going accompanying each other through the border crossings, and through the whole trip through Mexico to prevent falling into the hands of organized crime. So in. It's this kind of very big migrant caravan that these guards are there to stop people can still cross in probably still will there's jungles between the border in there they're going to be able to police all that. So people actually want to try and cross the border, they will be able to. But this is a sign, but Mexico's foreign minister Marcelo abroad has been in Washington DC, of course, Ave of promises and all threats that Mexico could make to try and talk President Trump down could Mexico, perhaps impose tariffs of its own. There has been some talk of that, but they're really trying to find the most positive way to move through this. And the fact that it is central Americans that are in any way going through Mexico, does help the Mexican 'cause at least somehow. So how does president Obrador spin as you correctly point out? He doesn't face re election for some considerable time. So in the long run it may not hurt him. But still, he, he won't want to look like he is moving into President Trump. How how does he sell this to the Mexican people? Well he, he cannot be reelected. There's no re presedential reelection in Mexico. So there's one thing up his considerations. I think that he will sell it to Mexicans by saying that the tariffs will be very hurtful, and that if anything there has to be controlled migration from Central America through Mexico is that likely to work for him. Do you think well, he doesn't have a lot to lose and his other option is to have a problems with the economy? So. Oh, it's actually an easy solution for him. So how do you see this playing out over over coming days? I mean, a lot of that is going to be up to President Trump, and it's, it's very difficult to sort of guess how he's going to react to anything from one day to the next. But do we now understand what costs Mexico is going to set itself? I think that as long as Trump has some theater, something that he can claim victory. He will be happy enough. I think that he also understands that they would be problematic for the US to impose these tariffs, Mattel, sober via Perea funk you for joining us. You're listening to the briefing. You're listening to the briefing with me, Andrew and for a look now at some of the day's other top stories joined in the studio by join the deco columnist with the Evening Standard and Lance price, foam director of communications for UK Prime Minister, Tony Blair. We will start in the UK where the opposition labor party has defied the predictions of most bookmakers and retain the seat of Peterborough in a by-election seeing off the threat of the newly formed Brexit party. It is arguably a less than glorious victory. However, the by-election became necessary when the previously MP on a Sonya was recalled after being convicted of perverting, the course of Justice over a traffic offence. She compared her subsequent trials to those of Jesus Moses, Moses indeed Joseph and Daniel her replacement. Lisa Forbes now. Lisa, Forbes MP was revealed during the campaign to have form for infusing about antisemitic conspiracy theories online. Joy the result. First of all, how big a surprise, is it nice? The UK will these politically minded of us. Where Cup went labor still has got some fuel in its engine. The labor party has got a very mixed reputation at the moment for sitting on the fence for not managing to take on Theresa May and any effective way for being athletes. Caught up in anti semitism rows. There was very specific one in this one and yet, somehow or other managed to drag people kicking and screaming into a ballot box and getting to put an X by them. A win is a win of basely. How thrilled by this one should lay the be the have fallen over the line by six hundred ninety three votes. There's a seventeen point two percent swing away from them from the last election. If you add up the combined, Tori Brexit vote, presumably, the hardcore pro Brexit vote, they will miles behind, and they have managed to elect Impe, who does have some form for antisemitism care about any of that. They've won and that's all matters in a by-election. And it's partly about the momentum and this could have been a very serious setback. Full, the labor party in particular, for the current leadership of the labour party. I think they've proved is that as an election fighting machine if you light the night part is still very effective. It showed that in the twenty seven two general election, did much better than most people expected in parts of that was down to the fact that they can simply get really old fashioned politics and get people out on the streets knocking on doors, having conversations with voter after voter voter in persuading them to come out there was a little bit of tactical voting, and I suspect in that the prospect of the first ever Brexit, and p being elected will have a lot of voters, whether they were natural labor supporters or not. So they probably can't claim everybody who put across beside and the do MP's name as a as a labour supporter, but they'll be very pleased with the result, just to follow that up lands. And just in terms of reputation management party discipline, and so on. When social media history was flagged in this, this seems to mostly revolve around making either approving likes or comments about anti anti semitic conspiracy theories. Why will she not dropped like a break? What I think is a bit too late in the process, but it doesn't have a good reputation for dealing with these sorts of allegations quickly. Yeah. Let's say quickly for now at least, and I mean, if you if you look at how they've responded to other things rather quickly, like the, the expulsion of my old boss, Alister Campbell for voting democrat. Some people would say that their ability to respond quickly to allegations of antisemitism pales into insignificance by comparison, and they'd have a fair point there. It suggests and labor people are certainly people around Jeremy Colby. Well, actually, they did the right thing to overreact to the allegations that were made about her as a candidate and to stick with her as you say it was, it was liking rather than generating any thoughts world. She, she did say she enjoyed reading a post claiming that Mossad had founded his limit state or something she did. And she didn't. And she, and she apologized for that and, and explain that she was the other aspects to the post that she was she was liking. But anyway, the people of Peterborough, obviously, didn't, or a, a majority of the people pita bread didn't think that was a reason to disqualify her from, from from taking office, but they were number of MP's. I know of a number of NPR refused to go and campaign for her weren't, there would normally have been there because of those because of those comments, I still I'm not I'm not diminishing the problem tool. I'm not underestimated. The problem is very serious problem for the party. And they got away with it on this occasion. Joy, the Brexit party would have gone into this thinking that this, this boy election looked like a, a gift from whatever force, it is that bestows these gifts upon insurgent political parties, Peterborough, voted sixty one percent leave. They did manage to find a Brexit party candidate. Mike Greene who in an himself not really noteworthy objectionable. Why couldn't they win this? Actually, I think there's a bit of a hard ceiling on the over the cliff Brexit is, and we keep funny funded in the parliamentary vote, you find in the EU election votes, and you find it here, there's only about third of the country who really do track like lemmings on this, and there is a Brexit vote that is actually much more moderate, and considered that she wants to find a deal and many of those that she stuck with the conservatives and so they couldn't steal those votes away. What do you make of Lance? Men should the Brexit party be taking a proverbial long hard, look at themselves, this morning, and thinking, well, if we can't win that, where can we, they will have to scratch the heads and work out what strategies going to be because every tent every attempt of nargile how many times? Seven seven number seventy seven. Maraj has attempted to stand for parliament and has lost seven times that number again, back into team won the most seats in the in the European elections after that they didn't win a single parliamentary seat. They've never wanna see. They've never had a seat other defections from the conservative party. And they didn't last very long either and so up to the right. There was a seal into what they can do. And they are off to rule at completely one issue party. And I think the Electra not stupid when they're offered opportunity. Let European elections to express view on one issue, a sort of mini referendum, if you live. We went to letting anything very powerful and then then they'll, then they'll use it. But when that doing something much more serious, which is deciding who should represent an entire constituency on a whole broad range of issues all who's going to form a government. And then Brexit isn't the most where move we talk about it constantly, but isn't the most important thing most voters minds. This is quite interesting that labor, it manages to diversify its meshes shots document the NHS start talking about housing start to commit the environment. The other people who are failing to anything other than Brexit is the conservative party said, they to end up being a soft Brexit versus hard Brexit vote and they can't seem them. They haven't tabled any major policies and they can't talk to people on the doorsteps anything other than tax rates, which in fact, will the new candidates switching around at the moment. So they're falling into that. Brexit potty, trap, at the moment, whereas labor isn't is there a possibility that because Brexit, has basically blocked out the sun for three years that not just political parties. But the political media are underestimating the number of people in this country who perhaps aren't really all that bothered one way or the other. Yes, I mean, there are a lot of people everyone's going to view think Brexit. So there are a significant minority, but they Austin a minority for whom it is the issue the burning issue it cuts across party loyalties. They'll, they'll bright, the habits of a lifetime. When they go into the ballot box because of what they think about Brexit. But there's an awful lot of people who is Joyce, as much. More concerned about other issues and rightly so. And there's a degree of Brexit fatigue as well. So labor has had a strategy which has been derided. And I've been one of those derided tried to sit on the fence on Brexit. Not take a very clear position and tried to talk about other things. And there are times when that works. And there are times when that doesn't work, but it does seem that impeachable. He did work. Okay. Well, let's move along slightly, and we'll also look and this may not take us long at the legacy of Prime Minister, Theresa may, who formally steps down today as leader of the conservative party. She will remain prime minister, however until a successor is chosen and, and this may become important until a success is chosen who can come on the confidence of the house of Commons. So she only has to hang in another eighteen years before she sees Sarobi Walpole joy, we shouldn't. I suspect also the final obsequies for Theresa May just yet she has been written off many times before in the Vichy still in split in. Applicable is. But if we do that, basically, her premiership is now at an end she she, it is. It is the literal, you had one job, premiership, which was to deliver Brexit. She has so evidently failed. So if we leave that to one side is there, actually an upside the head, conservative party that failed to deliver Brexit? She did her damnedest is there an upside to her leaving while I'm upside to her her time in office. If if when the history books, looked back on the Theresa May interrupt them the, the, the credit side of the ledger will contain what an well, it's tricky to say, I'm. An how resignation speech down on the steps of Downing Street. There was two three minute own her legacy which just sort of washed over us, and I've really felt engaged in it. I'm she set out to try and radically the burning injustices, people improve society felt, and I would argue that actually lost two three years, set those alight even more. You know, the flames spread. It's been a disaster, but that is because, as you said Brexit is blocked out the sun has been virtually no activity on the ground tool. So Theresa May, we'll go down as a great failure, but not necessarily from her own Byron fault loans as she sort of starts thinking about working on her memoirs, potential title, big seller exactly potential title. It could probably have been worse is anything shifting in the battle to succeed her. Do you think I think there's a little bit of real? Not starting to cut through in their all candidates like Rory Stewart, for example, whose whose bit of social media hit at the moment by off making rather wacky, he's international development secondary on the on the left of the party, making social media videos. I think we'll get into the point where this whole idea of a no deal Brexit, which some of kinds of that seem to think, is their way to victory in this election and is being exposed for the fallacy that it is. But the frustration, of course, is that this is such a bizarre election. I mean a new prime minister is being chosen for this country. Taking part in hustings, which none of us are allowed to witness going on behind closed doors and which will eventually go to an electric, which is totally unrepresentative country as a whole, so I think, for the rest of us look in from the outside. It's very depressing process, and a lot of nonsense is being taught by so many of the candidates only it may help them get elected on. That's not uncommon in democratic politics. And, and you might argue that was what got us into the mess in the first place, but they are gonna hit the hard buffer of reality. And fortunately, there are few people like noise stood and couple of the others, who, who have beginning to shine a little bit of light on that, whether that will have an impact on this rather bizarre. Selector electrode. I don't know. I was briefly married to a conservative. He was the convener of the local conservative party association through the election of Ian, Duncan Smith, and Michael Howard, and I stood there is. Young wife not particularly conservative absolutely baffled as to why they would choose this eventually the penny dropped and they went actually, maybe we should just have this chap David Cameron auditions about but I didn't think. This Electra today, yet joy on that subject. We should we should remind the passing international listener of how this briefly of how this works, which is that the parliamentary conservative party will whittle this down to two candidates who will then be put to the collected wisdom of the hundred twenty thousand mad retired Brigadier who might Cup the conservative party's actual membership is the dynamic, basically, still that if Boris Johnson makes the runoff, he wins by the length of the straight, so because of that the parliamentary party will do it's absolute damnedest to stop him from getting on the ticket, and that is roughly, correct. I would say that amongst the brigadiers a lot of housewives as well. And few thrusting businessman I do think there little bit more balanced than just being Johnson fans some of the movie, Katya Brexit and saying, this is pretty dangerous. But yes, I think the general feeling is the mini put this to that one hundred group of hundred twenty thousand Boris will get it. So when you start looking at the. Other candidates have humor, I think there were twelve the number keeps fluctuating to ten in one hundred a couple have withdrawn, but those, those were the kind of candidates whose withdrawal prompted the general response who were you in were you even running. Looking at the other candidates who are running whom I think Michael grove is a front runner. I think my Hancock and, and Rory Stewart also come on a kind of remain very soft Brexit section of the party and the report three sections together. Now when you start adding that up is Boris Johnson still the outright leader. Or in fact, does the kind of go centrist position. And does the Hancock Stewart position at she began to add up in big numbers loan, someone to look at a couple of the things that have been said by a couple of those front runners joy mentioned in particular Dominic Robb, who has floated this idea of proroguing, which is to say suspending or closing the current parliament, if it, if it won't agree on anything or if it, if it continues to refuse to agree to a no deal Brexit. I mean, this, this idea has been dismissed by many including the speaker of the house of Commons, who one would presume would get some saying this isn't actually as as mad as it sounds yet is. I think the last person he tried that was Charles the first and that didn't. The country you would think that was a discouraging presi Jovan. But well, maybe dominate rob doesn't value his head as much as as much as we think he does. And no. Now, -rageous suggestion that. And the, the parliament should be denied the opportunity to express view and to take a decision on something so important for the future of the country, and on, absolutely certain not only that the speaker wouldn't allow it to happen. But the majority of MP's wouldn't allow it to happen. And I think this is just on that thought the nightmare scenario here is not that they may become a point at which the Queen has to decide whether she allows it to happen, while the clean would take the advice of the sitting prime minister, and I think, under those, I mean, it's a set of circumstances that the pilots would be absolutely desperate to avoid, I mean, I would hate it beyond anything else. And I'm sure I'm not just the Queen with hate it as well. But were to happen. I don't know. I mean, it would be compl. Lately unprecedented in British political history. And, but the convention is that the Quintex advice of the of the prime minister on behalf of Her Majesty's government. But I really don't we're going to get to that point. And other than the fact that by simply raising the possibility that, that might happen. I think that exposes how absurd idea it is. And I think it's probably damage dominate Robb quite a lot about that. He's even floated it just finally, before we move off this, because this circus is set to continue for another few weeks. So there'd be plenty more time to discuss it, you both know by now. How much I enjoy inviting guests to offer up hostages to fortune. So at this point, I'm going to ask you each intern you first joy, who's gonna win this thing, who is the next prime minister of the United Kingdom. I'm afraid to save bursts. Oh, good. Lord joy joy is going there. Lance. Doesn't usually win conservative contest. To make it not happen. The power to, to that particular crisis. Julie's. Right. But you're but you're also right to say that the, the front runner, almost always fails and Boris is doing very well keeping his head down and not saying anything, and which is probably wise. But people know what he's about. So just giving a different dancer. I'll say Michael gov. Okay. Well, finally, and remember history, will record both of those so we may take this opportunity to come back either marvel at your sagacity or jeer at your misjudgement some weeks heads. But let's look finally a new ways from IKEA it's either or both and ingenious at uptaken to smaller living spaces or depressing confirmation that living spaces in cities at least a not going to get any bigger rogue NAN Runyon, or however these things get pronounced in Swedish is a robot room. Divider can be rolled left to right. And presumably right to left to become variously, a bed, desk, wardrobe and also I depending on what you are doing with your day at that point. Joy, you have you have written extensively about smaller living spaces, and the adaptation to them. Do you want one of these? Does it excite me sites by as much as kind of being able to convert a caravan into different spaces exciting? It's probably little bit enough. I am, however, a huge advocate for small city living because I think there is a, a trend driven not by state agency to put the price up to tell everybody they, they need to live in palaces in central London. And it's largely lie. And Secondly, we now live in a very digital age, and yet we have accumulated all these possessions amazing. You just let go of your possessions. You'll find at she don't need that much space, some white walls, and bitter clarity's pretty much. All you need. You wonder about this sometimes as somebody who has always grown up in my own homes, and before that in my family homes, which, which the principal decorative feature was books which take up a great deal of spice. I do find myself, recognizing actually quite a lot of where I live is basically there. So I've got somewhere to keep books and you think if I didn't if I if I got used to just storing everything digitally wouldn't actually need half of this place. I'm with you on that. Although massive collection at a tiny fights, none that Aisin's, rather fortunate enough to have somewhere else where all the books can be can be kept. And I would be I would hate to have to give out that book collection. And if it went digitally record mom uses collection digitalized to get what I've got and that's got what I've listened to. And I forgot I would forget which books, I'd read and I just love love love having them around me and. Very conversation here about whether you can have more than one home. Well, I to have somewhere else. So my books the British library and it fits in, in a little Regis ticket. So, in fact, that has always been wave actually accessing physical books. In fact, many more than you can ever store yourself did wanna finish this chat by asking you both. What's actually, the smallest living space you have ever occupied for a reasonable period of time. I've seen not counting hotel rooms and stuff and not wanting to turn this overly from an elitist, chat about the second homes into one hundred eighty degrees. Screech into a reenactment of Monty python's for Yorkshireman's catch, but I will start more. I will I will put the anti on the table of the three months, I spent living in an upstairs kitchen in a shared house and strengthen. I goalie. I mean, I've lived in some very, very small rooms at university, but I'm going to defy you on the hotels when I get to New York, I we stayed at hotel cooled, the Jane, which is literally a single bed a narrow walkway mirror on the other side, and I it and shed ball through GMs beautifully. Kept shed ball on the end. I absolutely love it. All my friends staying in hotels. Am I just won't stay in this very small enclosed space that has of you out onto onto the river months? The smallest living space you have ever had. We've been without archea robotics systems. I mean this don't have the privilege of seeing the size of the student was sitting in, but my first room university was small of understood to the announcer TV and, and I think probably the smallest space and I'm gonna I'm breaking your rules was a announcement, five weeks going around New Zealand in absolutely loved. It was tiny lens. Price, Angela deco. Thank you both for joining us. You'll listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four. You're listening to the briefing on monocle twenty four. Let's get the days latest business headlines. I'm joined by Bloomberg's Sandra Kilhof Sandra. First of all European Central Bank has made some fairly grim pronouncements another rickety day for European investors. Yeah. We're seeing the euro down a tenth of a percent at the moment comes after Radha yesterday. And it is because German industrial production plunge, the most almost four years in a, it's really confirming that we're seeing a persistent slump in the largest economy in your production. Really dropping one point nine percent at the same time, we had from the Bundesbank's this morning that it cut its growth full costs and it was citing weaker exports sector in the country. Of course, this comes off ECB, president Miodrag. He just yesterday announced fresh measures to support growth and said that the key issue in the years on Kona is whether or not the economy's insulated from a manufacturing sector that keeps being weeks. Lots of concerns. They when it comes to the duck shin capability in the European economy on the subject of gruesome predictions, there's also the suggestion that should Boris Johnson become prime ministers. At least one of L panelists was just suggesting it might make the British peoples holidays in Europe somewhat more expensive. Yeah. This is a Bloomberg survey of analysts at twenty. Different banks have all said that the conservative leadership race could really affect the pound. It could slide to, to year low, if a hard-line Euro-sceptic takes over and saying, in particular that sterling could drop more than two percent to one spot twenty four against the greenback. If for example, Johnson replaces Theresa May. Now, the survey also says that a hod breaks tier is very likely to take over. That's an REO is put at seventy percent probability, but they're also saying that they expect lawmakers to provide a barrier against the no deal exit. On the other hand, there's a tooth probability for further extension to Brexit and that could drive the pound up to one fatty, just foreign poli UK investors wishing to plunge the money into legal marijuana funding. There are still obstacles, it's not so much green technology. But in fact, the other green, it's kind of a because the kind of market is really being deterred by a brood low hair that basically push basically bans, any proceeds from Krimmer. Activities. And it made that British British investors want to make money on something that's legal abroad, for example, in Canada, where you can invest in recreational marijuana funds. They would be breaching, the low here in the case, if they're bringing those funds back into the UK, and that's why we're seeing very few IPO's of medicinal cannabis Donna ups here in the UK, then looking privately instead, and it's a bit interesting because Canadian firms actually the ones topping the list when it comes to best before his on that country stock benchmark. So at least from a financial point of view, not that logical at least from a lawful point of view. It's eagle time being Sandra. Kilhof Bloomberg, thanks for joining us, now, here is Monaco's Marcus hippie with the days of the main stories. The initial findings off an international investigation into tax on for oil tankers off the coast of the United Arab Emirates last month has concluded that a state actor is the most likely culprits new report says the attack seemed to be sophisticated and coordinated operation. The US has accused Iran of being behind the attacks, but Tehran, denies it, it is being reported that the US wounds accepts anymore. Turkish F thirty five fight Jeter, trainee pilots. This is the latest development in an ongoing agreement surrounding Turkey's order for a Russian aerial, defense system and sedan as being suspended from the African Union following a military crackdown on civilian protests, that has left dozens dead negotiations between the military and Sudanese pro democracy. Leaders broke down ahead of the violent dispersal of demonstrators on Monday. Those are the day's headlines. Now back to you. Andrew. You're listening to the briefing with me, Andrew Mola last November's midterm elections in the United States attracted an unusual amount of interest around the world. They were the first large scale electoral verdict on the presidency of Donald Trump, despite what Trump himself subsequently insisted the result was other than a wholehearted encouragement to carry on. It wasn't just that the Republican party lost the house of representatives to the Democrats. It was the Democrats. They lost to record numbers of women gay people and candidates from ethnic and religious minorities. Ran for office across the US Rachel lease justly, acclaimed documentary knock down the house, followed the campaigns of four women who stood in the Democratic Party primaries before the midterms, all running against established democratic representatives. One of them Bronx pot into Alexandria, orcas Yokota's one and is now representing New York's fourteenth district will earlier at Midori house. I spoke to Rachel, and the other three subjects of knock down the house, Amy villa of. Nevada Corey Bush of Missouri. And Paula jeans were engine of West Virginia began by asking Amy Cory and Paula Jean, when they decided that they should run the moment thinking about the work that was done during a Ferguson uprising and having that voice rep actually represented in congress, because what we went through, there is something that you can't manufacture, you know, it was a an organic thing, and there is something that I gained from and everybody else out there. They gave their soul. What we gained from it. I believe that, that regular everyday person with that hard love and fire for the community should be seated in that seat. So that's what made me say. Yes, it needs to be me alone, skew, a variation of that question. Which is once you've made the decision or you find yourself tending towards that decision. Do I want to do this? How hard is it to avoid token yourself out of it, because obviously, there's any number of reasons. I think why most people would think. I can't run for public office. That's ridiculous. Did you have any sort of crises like that? Absolutely. When they first told me that you should run Amy. I was like, we all are nuts. I'm not running. I like most people, I'm thinking, I don't have the pedigree. I'm not I wasn't brought up to run for office in have that. And I have a different background in. I'm statistical working class. Right. And I actually went on a mission to try to find someone to run that I could say find someone and if I can't then I'll run. But there came a point when I was doing this and trying to talk myself out of it, it was like, no, I m just a person that needs to run, and we need to have representation, and we need to make sure we have voices of people that understand the struggle of the working class who have paid the ultimate prices for bad legislation and bad legislators. This was that moment in time where I had to really challenge myself that it was necessary in that if. I was silent. I was complicit with what I knew was happening, and I refuse to be complicit with what is the corruption and the downright, just evilness. That's happening in politics, not just in America. But around the world. Pay jing. How was that early experience for you? Did you have any difficulty getting to the point of deciding? I'm actually doing this and one going out on knocking on doors. Introducing yourself to people, and, and I guess the dollywood fund difficult. I think is keeping a straight face all saying, I'm rubbing for congress. Well, it was just necessary. We're startling in West Virginia people are dying alarming rate, and we were not heard, and nobody would challenge, Joe Manchin. And you know, wondered if I was going to be good enough. But also the conversations open about our struggles across America on national level, and that was bodily important win or lose. Because, you know, people pick up what's going on in Ferguson and pick up what's going on in Appalachia, and we'll talk about healthcare little bit. But all of this was put together and it, you know, it kept our voices and that narrative going throughout our campaigns. It was really hard. Sometimes, you know, to be in the limelight for running for office. I've never. Light a lot attention for myself. And then suddenly all here was all this attention and just trying to win people over in the party, especially, you know, they gave us a lot of resistance, the Democratic Party, I found more enjoyment, being in the front lines than communities knocking on doors than I did you know, any of the democratic events because you know they they had already made up their minds. They were ugly to us. They gave us a lot of resistance, but just learning even because I know what's going on in the coalfields in West Virginia, but learning everything that's going on. You know, the rest of my state and actually engaging with people, and conquering, the divide in creating unity happened a lot, my campaign. So it was was really a pleasurable experience by the end of it. Attention. That was paid to of course, walls in the shape of this film, and Rachel to bring you in when e set about this idea of filming campaigns from the inside. What would the qualities you're looking for in the candidates he decided to follow? Well, I was very interested in the idea of ordinary people outside the political establishment building a pathway to the halls of power. And so each of these candidates was part of a coordinated slate with the group's brand new congress injustice, Democrats, that were really recruiting people around the country to run on platforms of no corporate funding and unified around policy positions that are broadly, popular and progressive, and so beyond that, I mean, I limited myself to that collective project because I was very interested in what it would look like for people from different backgrounds around the country to come together, as regular working people to really build a collective project of infiltrating government. For lack of a better phrase, but beyond that, I really wanted to find people who would be just exciting and compelling to watch. No matter what happened with the outcomes of the elections. All of these races were considered longshots. There was a very real possibility that all four of the candidates would lose their races. But I knew that if we followed people who had very high stakes personal reasons for getting involved in politics, an ability to really connect their own personal struggles. And those of their communities to policies, I knew that, that would reveal a lot about how power works in the United States, and it would make for an engaging movie. No matter what happened vote certainly true. And it does depict called intimately, what an extraordinary struggle that he is, especially if you will try to do this from the backgrounds three view of described not thinking of yourselves beforehand, as the kind of people who would do this for the three of the candidates, and it's correct that you'll can. Pains, I think will longshots at least at the outset. Did you ever have a moment during the campaign where you found yourself thinking this could happen? I might actually pull this off. I had the moment early on. It was kinda just up in the air, but then when it got closer to the end, I started to really feel like okay we can do this. We had the momentum. We were getting more endorsements than the incumbent. You know, we had a lot of focus on our campaign, then I was in a car accident in everything changed, and I wasn't able to campaign anymore, so that kind of put a halt to our campaign, but then about two months later Alexandria won her race in came to Saint Louis. Well, she won her race and then say my name in her victory speech, and then everything I mean, immediately that night, all of my social media blew up donation started rolling in, like crazy. It was just amazing Arkham pain, totally changed. I was getting people from locally, who aren't paying attention to us like even in the media that we're now like, okay, you know what this, this may happen. I even had one journalist come to me. In any said, we don't want to be like New York because they said that you know what we didn't. Say Alex attention and then she won. So we don't wanna make that mistake, though you may win. So we're going to pay you engine. So I really felt like you know, we could really pull it off. The does introduce, of course, the one candidate depicted in the film, isn't here because she's otherwise occupied being congress person. And that was Andrea. Calcio coach has won that fabulous an improbable victory in her district in New York. And I think most people around the world. So most people outside to district, the first time we ever heard of was that famous shot of her realizing that she'd won the primary and the full barring some improbable that was going to be elected to congress, right you, you'll recollection of that particular moment. Well, I had been with her throughout the day sense, I think seven in the morning and I had followed her after the polls closed at nine o'clock. She wanted everyone to turn off their phones. I wrote in the car with her from the area where she was campaigning over to the watch party when the results were starting to come in, but. She didn't wanna hear anything about it. So I had a second camera person at the bar where the watch party was going on. And I think he and the volunteers who are at the bar started finding out what was going on before we did those of us who are in the car with her. And so it was an incredibly emotional moment. I ran into the bar behind her. And we were able to capture that moment that you spoke of where the world, eventually learned about her the moment when she learned of her victory, we were shooting that with two cameras for the film. That was a very exciting moment. That was very focused at that point on just getting the shots. I needed to tell the story. It was. It's a little bit of an out of body experience when you're filming something like that. You know, have time to really process, what's happening. It's just a matter of make sure cameras rolling. Make sure we're continuing to, to capture this, Gino, skew been like since then what ching Alexandria, 'cause you quotas grappa with the reality of becoming a congress person, and a public. Figure because she has had to whether an extraordinary backlash from people who I'm not even sure they're even angry with her ideas. They're angry. I think with the idea of her is that made you feel like that you kind of had a lucky escape, now we were all in this together and we still have Alex is back in. I think the great thing about this field because she's got so much criticism is a humanizes her. You know, it tells her story and Alex history in it's amazing, you know, like she said it takes one hundred of us to try for one of us to win, and it's amazing that we all started. Nobody knowing their names. And now Alex is representing us, and she's doing a stellar job to she is really calling out some corruption, and I'm very proud of her because there was a narrative, I think around a victory unto prominence, an paps, it may have been different full media, looking at this outside the United States might have different from inside the United States that she and a lot of people who are elected in the. Midterms and people who ran in the midterms part of a backlash against the Trump presidency. Is that how it felt for the three of you, would you have run? For example, had Hillary Clinton won the presidential election friend. Absolutely. Have friend, the problems that are in the film happened before Trump was elected. He's a symptom of the problem that is happening within our representation. I mean my daughter died before Trump was elected Ferguson happened before Trump elected, the mounts have been totally decimated throughout West Virginia, before Trump's elected he is a symptom. So whether he was elected or not. We were running this political awakening, and I'm sure he had some part of the desperation of needing to have changed done quickly that probably added to that Trump being elected. But there has been a movement for years and Popley did start with the election. But before ten nothing to do with Trump about, we're seeing a political change in the country, where we're wanting to have things that are protections for the people every other industrialized nation has, like, for instance, healthcare, universal healthcare, some form except for us. And we have thirty five thousand people a year dying from a lack of healthcare in the United States. So. We've already been having these conversations. But I think what Trump's election did was put that into really fast speed it was like now not only a we going to have to fight to improve what we are already considering is not adequate. Now we have to push back against us rolling backwards. So the fight became harder and more, we really need it to be quick about what we were doing and make sure that we're getting in there. So we can fight some of the legislation that's happening, but was right. You'll Liz director of knock down the house, and former and future. Congressional candidates Corey Bush, Amy villa and Paula Jean swear, engine speaking to me earlier, knock down the house is available on Netflix. You're listening to the briefing. It is time now on the briefing to take a look at what's in this morning's newspapers. I enjoined in that enterprise by monocle, pita, f- pita off Ayu assaying. And I quote, we had some absolutely pumping stories to tell the listeners about what. Yes. Absolutely. And we have now the dot given that, that cell vela's you're gonna tell the listeners. Sides to get the raw energy in the room marks alive. Mike Spada A K that guy. So shock Harare as we as we go to the telegraph, the internet is making you stupider me, personally or all of all of us in my old of mankind. I would explain great deal. What do they mean by that say Oxford, King's College? Harvard economists supergroup of university research is came together and found that all reliance on the incident is, is lacking is is is affecting abilities focus on memories and all social behaviors what they mean by that. But one thing in this article really struck me, which is the fact that what is actually doing is, it's tricking everybody into thinking they actually Osma to by giving them access to information, which is effectively the report, argues creating a, a weld of steep. It people who completely or increasingly convinced of an intelligence, it is bestowing opponents knowledge rather than wisdom. Exactly, exactly. I think you need to go to, to find confirmation of that, basically, going online for ten seconds, pretty much to this ABI is this just a statement? Of the bleeding obvious by the department of the bleeding obvious oil. Have they found anything new if well this, this is something which has been contested for a long time? So I think as chop called call. He came out few years ago with a cool shallows won the internet is doing to your brain. And in that, he, he makes the case phone near plasticity, which is the motion. But, you know, the tools that you use shape, your brain and, and so on, and so forth. But then, that was also hotly contested, this is actually while it's something which seems to just kind of confirm something that we pay to. No. It's actually saw typically apparently proven it. Okay. What else do we have? All right. Say that guide us pumping story number one. Actually say this. This is this is a world news pace. Good atmospheric piper wrestler. So in Japan a recent movement has basically railed against the mandatory sporting of high heels full female members of staff said, the notion is that if you're woman you're in the office, you have to wear, high heels otherwise face. Rhett for moans, and there's a new movement, cold Kutu, which is a play on the west. Exactly. And so it's it's gathering momentum. But this week on Wednesday, the, the labor minister in Japan a chap called Takumi Nemoto said the it's necessary unreasonable for women's wear, high heels at work, he wasn't volunteering to try himself. I notice on nights. He was not. He was not that cross in the is, is, is quite outlawed. So it's, it's an interesting story. How is there any sense from that story of how that has played in Japan because that does? Seem like an obviously deal excitement. So awfully silly that you can't quite believe a grown human being would make it. Well, it shows how touch in a sense, the, the government or government ministers appear to be with the travails of everyday people in the travails of women specifically in the workplace because it's been a cornerstone of one of shins, I always ideas for the economy is to encourage more women into work and to encourage of positive working environment for women. But then you have this kind of undercurrent of, of power harassment. Some, some raw the kind of unpleasant situations for women in, in offices across Japan and it's kinda like it feels raw, it feels raw the, like while this movement is kind of gathering significant momentum there. The comes the, the fusty old guard who ensuring that it, it may not come too much time for one more quick. When I reckon. What else do you have a well actually store here under about some disappointing news from your home country? So the new times is reporting that on a slew of government rights against journalists in Australia. Indeed. So say with we're looking here on Wednesday, the Australian Federal Police showed up at the main public ruled cost with a warrant full notes story pitches, emails, a lot of material there from from Todd teams of journalists and senior editors in connection with a story from two thousand seventeen about Australian special forces, I've opposable crimes in Afghanistan, now, this is obviously Holly law Ming and experts is saying that among developed countries. Australia stems out full, the worst in sons ING, and intimidating journalists and the one of the reasons citing is the fact that I didn't realize the Australian doesn't actually have a constitutional protection for freedom of speech. It does not that he's a story that I suspect he's going to get the recently returned. Government of Scott Morrison, an awful lot of. Bad press overseas and deserves to. I have noticed. However, for the benefit of our listeners that the story in question has been returned to a prominent place on the website and I do recommend everybody go and take a look at it. Because it he's absolutely. Outstanding journalism pita thank you for joining us. With the paper view you are listening to the briefing. You are listening to the briefing and finally today, the men's spring slash some twenty twenty shows in full swing. New York fashion week ended on Wednesday the London shows start tonight and for more on all of that, and more besides joined in the studio by Jamie waters monocle fashion editor, join me, what are we learning about the general state of the men's show, circuit yet, it's it's innovative. It's getting over a complicated at the moment, essentially, you have the establish wakes past Milan London York, but what has its ten into a bit of a free for all for brands way, essentially Brad's going of shed, Joel showing where they want said of other location. So these wake in addition to New York, and the London shows happening Prada has showed in Shanghai and Ceylon has shown in LA, essentially. The point of fashion weeks of having fashion shows east to create a moment way you kind of can have these throughway. You're appearing on everyone's to grind fade. You'll getting print articles and you get as much attention. You know that justifies expense. It's really hard to do that now, fashion wakes because this, this pact on this, so many shows, so you put these money into show, and then there's another brand, you know, who has the next show, forty five minutes, and you kind of what off the top of every always seeing the big brand, start to think. Well, maybe we can attract more attention by just touching all cells from this doing our own thing hundred percent. And they, it's about the location and the timing because so this week, for instance, we've got products I live on this. There's already been there's a lot of articles just reading about those individuals shows that kind of dominating paper social media fates, because I mean to be honest, neocon London aunt dot then particularly strong women, so. The big show is on in the next awakes Milan empowers. So all that is that still to come. So it means that these products on basically dominate coverage, so process lead to a certain amount of attrition, might some of the fashion week, start to, if not completely full by the why you saw then start to become to be seen very much to your events yen, that's already to that, that he's kind of saying Neo can London which the, the smaller young men's fashion weeks on their lineups that can increasingly depleted. Because if you're big enough brand, you, you can show when you want way. But you do have to have to have to be a beat brand product and do it because they can get all the press. They, they can bucket every pay off going to turn out, they, you know, such important brand, small brands continous, Sarah. It's not. It's not quite sending so we still need the fashion weeks. Definitely in pot on Kevin you talent and. Things. But I mean, in fact, these, these assays Nimule fashion week on all the official funding was poed. So it was kind of about Brown's describing scraping together there and funds that in itself is a whole other thing because you can get some some talent and some kind of Spock when Brown when you'll box against the wall, and designers can be quite craven. We were few interesting things in, in your we Bisi Bryant's having to pay together their own choice through there. But all she is kind of anything goes at the moment, will nevertheless. And I feel like this question does now need nevertheless, having absorbed all that London men's fashion week does begin tonight? How is it looking? Yes. As I say it is it is, getting smaller, h Cezin the biggest loss that London the men's fashion had was when the Brey moved to show its coed to serve both collections together during women's, and that was a really big loss, because that was these like, Ma. Key brand that boarding all the international press advertising, 'cause that's advertises but the us to some, some cool young brands to San London is kind of a hub of creativity. So I'm Craig Craig grain is kind of the standout name. He's, he's kind of the biggest name, the one one, I'm looking for to his Nikos daily who's these, these young young designer he's off to make an half Scottish. And so, and he kind of fuses inspiration from both of those Deutsche kind of traditions of clothing and he's doing his role my show tomorrow. So that will be that will be exciting and Montaigne Roy's who has been around for a while. But still has these kind of halo of excitement around her, and she always has interesting shows she showed in a suburban straight loss as in so she's on Sunday, not. And then there's a few upcoming nine Steffan cook, who's just won the LVMH prize on, he's showing his he's show. So, you know. This is talent here, and, but I think London's is more more about the young nines in the kind of upstart brands rather than those beak brands at bringing in sexual press, just finally, and very quickly on London men's fashion week in particular. Is that right there potential future forward that it just focuses more on that up and coming creativity, which, as you point out is bountiful right here in London? Yeah. I think so. I mean, it, it still has that the something about London in Fasching, genuine and is known for being. It's kind of eccentric, kind of experimental. So I think it still has its place in industry. Definitely on. It's just a matter of how many brands Kate moving a lot of moving to power. So how many brands continue to do their team? Because been the lineup becomes increasingly played at some point, maybe they should go to measure. Women's, Jamie waters, thanks for joining us. And he's old for today's edition of the briefing before we go remind of the day's top news stories, Mexico has deployed six thousand members of its national guards to the border with Guatemala in an attempt. To prevent migrants crossing into the country. British Prime Minister Theresa may will officially stand down as conservative party leader today, after nearly three years in the job and the initial findings of an international investigation into attacks on for oil tankers of the coast of the United Arab Emirates last month has concluded that a state actor is the most likely culprit, the briefing wells produced by Marcos hippie done, you'll bait and such Neelam ninja Nick Monet's s Judy manage. It was say ra- miles went back on Monday at the same time Dailan. I'm Andrew mullahs. Have a great weekend.
Episode 403: The Inspirational Royal Florist Shane Connolly and Our State Focus: Maryland
"Callow again. And welcome back to the slow flowers podcast with Deborah printing episode four hundred and three. This is the weekly podcast about American flowers and the people who grow and design with them. It's all about making a conscious choice and I invite you to join the conversation and the creative community has we discussed the vital topics of saving our domestic flower farms, and supporting a floral industry that relies on a safe seasonal and local supply of flowers and foliage. This podcast is brought to you by slow flowers dot com. The free nationwide online directory to florist shops in studios, who design with American grown flowers and to the farms that grow those blooms, it's the conscious choice for buying and sending flowers and thank you to our lead sponsor florist review magazine. I'm delighted to serve as contributing editor for slow flowers journal. Found in the pages of Florus review hits the leading trade magazine in the floral industry, and the only independent periodical for the retail wholesale and supplier market take advantage of the special subscription offer for members of the slow flowers community. Pat, Debra printing dot com where you can also find the show notes for today's episode four hundred and three. Our first sponsor spotlight. Thanks goes too long field gardens long gardens provides home Gardner's with high quality flower bulbs, and Perennials their online store offers plants for every region. And every season from tulips and definitions to Dolly's, caladiums amaryllis, visit them at long field dash gardens dot com. Our fem- for two thousand nineteen fifty states of slow flowers continues today with floral designer honor rose Pappas based in Maryland listened for my conversation with on in the second portion of this episode. Last week, I enjoyed a five day world, wind trip to London. My tannery was filled with all things flowers and gardens it was an incredible trip. Made all the more enjoyable, thanks to unseasonably beautiful, and dry, London weather that made everything sparkle, I'll be covering the RHS Chelsea flower show with a best of Chelsea report, four floors reviews. August issue out later this summer. In the meantime, I have a very special episode to share with you today. My guest is Shane Connolly of Shane Connolly, and company whose website carries this Royal warrant of appointment by appointment to HR h the prince of Wales supplier of flowers for events. Well, if you track Royal weddings at all, you will know the Mr. Conley designed the florals for the marriage ceremony of will in Kate. That is their Royal highnesses the Duke and duchess of Cambridge in two thousand five. He was honored and delighted to be asked by HR. H the duchess of Cornwall to design her bouquet and all the other flowers for her marriage to h r h prince of Wales and the service of dedication in Windsor Castle, in recognition of this Shane was awarded a Royal warrant of appointment to h HR, h the prince of Wales in two thousand six following that in two thousand eleven as I just said, Shane was appointed artistic director for the wedding of the Royal highnesses the Duke and duchess a Cambridge, and was awarded a second warrant of appointment to her majesty the Queen in two thousand fifteen HR the prince of Wales has long been a campaigner for the environment, and has recognized the dangers of intensive farming imported and genetically modified food, very publicly and both he and his eldest, son. The Duke of Cambridge are crusaders for environmental wellness which provided shame the tremendous distinction to design the florals for both of their marriage ceremonies in a naturally. Stunning ecoconscious manner. There is something very flattering when you arrange to meet someone for tea, and he shows up holding a copy of your book the fifty mile. Okay and asking you to autograph it. Well, there's something entirely surreal when that person is Shane Connolly, what a lovely surprise. It turns out that Shane acquired the fifty mile bouquet several years ago when he was teaching at flower school. New York where the keep a small selection of books in the school shop, I think that's perhaps how Shane learned of my passion for local and seasonal flowers, and we later became Instagram friends, I sent him a message several months ago, asking, if you'd be willing to record an interview for the slow flowers podcast, while I was in London, what a thrilling treat that Shane said. Yes, as it turns out, in order to have a quiet space for the recording. We walked from his north Kensington studio. Just a few blocks away to Shane's home that he and his wife candy have recently established in the neighborhood. Pinch me. I was seated on the linen sofa surrounded by antiques textiles book. Folks are and flowers interviewing this warm kind, funny and intelligent floral artist. Shane is a true pioneer. And he is a vocal leader in sustainable floral design in all of its facets, a kindred, slow flower spirit, who ask about the origin of the flowers, he sources and works to change the floral industries conventional less than sustainable practices, by example. Here's more about Shane, Conley Shinkon Lee and company has been creating timeless artisan floor range moments and decorations for over twenty five years and Shane still gets excited about the next vent, Shane set up his upon this company in nineteen Eighty-nine after training with some of London's leading floral designers born and raised in Northern Ireland. Shane read psychology at university, but a lifelong passion for plants and gardening, eventually led to a complete career change and subsequently, he has built an enviable reputation as a floral designer with a small dedicated and talented team. Florus artists and craftsmen working from offices and a light large light 'til studio in north Kensington, which is neighborhood in London. He is the author of four books table flowers wedding flowers, the language of flowers and a year and flowers this gives you a snapshot of Shane Conley. But now let's hear his story I will have photos and links to share in today's show notes at Deborah printing dot com. You're in for a real treat, so let's get started. I can't believe I'm sitting in your charming house. Myself even here we've tried to do every that. The only new thing got was the sofa because fits the space, perfectly it had to be the right size but everything is recycled. Even curtains that one hundred years old. Tried to only have old things I wanted to continue in the house. I love it. Okay, ready? Welcome back to the slow flowers podcast with Deborah printing. And I am so thrilled to introduce you to Shane Connolly of Shang Conley and company based here in England. In London Shane, thank you for saying, yes, pleasure joining me on the I would have said, yes, years ago. Well, I wanted to do at person. Exactly listen, more of a tweet, thank you. So I'm delighted that I got to see your beautiful workspace and studio, and you agreed to sit down and talk a little bit about many topics for the podcast. To start can you give us a snapshot of Shane Connolly and company, the scope of what this, this enterprise is goes. Sometimes it feels like cotija industry, sometimes it feels like it's international. And sometimes it feels like it's a tiny company. Sometimes it feels very interesting. I think I wish someone had been able to tell me when I was sixteen hike, citing my life would be. Glad no one told me how little money you make from it. But the excitement. I suppose when I first started I didn't know what was going to be doing. It was slightly accidents as well as intentional, but I thought I would be doing parties and weddings and with lowers with low. Yeah, but I never thought that it was going to spiral into giving Tokes writing books troubling. I mean, I would never thought that that's the international part. And I believe that I've been to so many places to meet will you, you said the this business now took flowers off the name in its and company? But I was declawed. Yes. But it wasn't. I mean that's certainly not your intent every. 'cause I wasn't doing didn't want flaws that, that wasn't just it just seemed cleaner to be shamed Coney and company. It also allowed it to be the feeling that it wasn't just me. Shading Coney flaws meant that I was so responsive. But it gave the team more of a sense know people call themselves odd petals and rainbows something, and something not means that they then have scope for other people to be considered as important as them on Shang Tobin flaws meant it had to be me. ES whereas uncoupling means. Share the love. That's it. So, so your your, your main emphases are weddings and events. And then. Consulting for specific. Yes. Floral related projects. Yes. Okay. M in speaking, and writing. And how do you divide up that high very badly? Okay. Unusually everything on the same week. Of course, still has to be done by four o'clock. As well as you mean, the last person this Judy, who has to deed, the bins because they started to smell old on the web by five o'clock. How do you divide it up? Not consciously. Okay. I don't think I'm particularly time manager and love Judy who is. Office manager, Judy manage sending sad very badly. I find easy destructed by the creative side, which is the unit while you do it. Exactly. And sometimes the, the delivery of that loved each delivery of roses arriving from Wales going on a lovely femme and not can distract you away from the quote that you're supposed to be writing midday so easily absolute when we were walking over here, I was going to ask you talking about Jili. We'll become on the frontlines. Speaking with the inquiry person enquiring about a winning and trying to determine whether the right fit for you. But at some point, you have the meeting with the prospective couple or the client, and then you do have to write a proposal that's the stuff that you want to run away from the office to go lowers, and yeah, distract. Yeah. Sometimes that's the stuff I have to say the transforming thing in my business has been having Judy come into the business is not just a creative as just being one who slightly manages people because. Yeah, that's the problem when you're doing a talk evolved into Tokyo. In New York, it isn't just one phone. It's twenty-seven. Emails phone calls a form to sign thirty five qualities about what flaws you won't twenty seven to they believe that you don't want any that you'll pick things that you get big time suck, too. Big. Sometimes it's just I, I mean, I would urge anybody who's, who's businesses being quite successful to think about having someone isn't necessarily the one out doing the flaws in the flowers to have someone who's, who's keeping control. Ginny is office based, she's amazing. She's your care. I think actually man central to make sure to Kofi. So you're known in the way, I found out about really was from having a mission or a brand related to British grown flowers and sustainability, I know that's not exactly how you probably describe yourself, a very happy to take that descript. Okay. Okay. I mean, we walked into a studio and you said, look at all of this British, you had cut flowers, you had plant you had written some roses just came in from neighboring country layoffs. And so that, that just is, is seem. Like you said, you've always had that orientation that it comes from the garden. So of course, it should be seasonal. That was a thing before it was a thing for that was you before it was thing. I didn't have a think of it. Okay. I think that the post, maybe depaz ten years and seventy five years suddenly thing on that as well. Right before that it was just the way you did things. I used to be slightly puzzled by people who really got excited about peonies in December in England unit. That was what they will not. I I'm not just puzzled by just I just find it difficult difficult to to, you know, as wonderful, no flow foam redeveloping says, how can you say that this is something that is exploiting, exploiting Edger is started, again, as Rita folding from no floral foam? The no phone Fonda says, how can you be doing something that is supposed to be glorifying nature if it's actually working against an inspite of nature and addiction, suddenly the setup and also getting older as you'll find when you do getting older suddenly makes you comfortable? That's one of the things about being actually, I feel that strongly I don't really care what people think of I speak out loud about it at Meyer that about you, too, because it some point you. Thank at least, I've earned the right to speak, my mind and, and follow a set of values that my, my company is associated with you. I got on my radar. I think just because I was I transitioned into floral from gardening. So I kind of didn't know who all the big players were. But of course when you will in Kate sweating flowers in that was two thousand eleven on my goodness. And Shane Connolly's name was pretty much everywhere for the media that bothered to write about the flowers, everything else in the wedding. Right. Exactly. And not that we talked a little bit over coffee about how that was a natural opportunity for you to talk about local flowers because this one. That's what they wanted. There was no conversion to my way of thinking. I told you say tomato, I said, tomatoes tomato that completely the awful organic and natural, an I actually didn't see any unusual approach. I was just basically not always done, which I was going to ask you is this pretty much, how you would approach any wedding like, what are your what is your vision, or what are your favorite flowers, or what, I don't try to keep away from because sometimes people then get obsessed on especially social media. So big people bring me photograph save you just love this twenty seven photographs all different an old flaws. Don't fly in October the muddiness. I love to sort of say, how do you picture thinking? Do you want people feel their debate grant dinner? Do you want people to feed like the having dinner party with friends? Do you want to feel really informal form? Try to gauge what the couple of like a more like the mood and the personality. Okay. Yes. And then from that from that, then try, I hate to set on the Nigeria in stone right at the beginning colors to the mast right at the beginning, goodness, eighty sad because you're going to be disappointed. Right. Whereas if you let it evolve, and then get excited about things as they evolve. It's usually a better result. Will you working on things from very small intimate scale to grand while you tell me you didn't wedding and India that you had to source local flowers there and hire dozens of people? So I mean I that's the distance from the small to the largest pretty vast for you. But there's probably some common thread for how you approach. The concept on the, it's not so much of what any of us, do it isn't. It's the client and the client. I want the client to be happy. I want the client feel like they have been in control that they have led the process so that when the party or wedding, or whatever it is actually happens. They think I feel home. I feel comfortable note that they weighing the room close to a party. Right. It's not their personality. So you have to get the ego out of it. And I think I see. But there's, there's so many other people in the industry who have a look or signature style, and it doesn't sound like we do. I mean, we all do if someone said to me, I wanted to be really full flaws and really colorful, I have to think that's not my personal preference. I love things to have an airing of. But then what flower looks good must together that time of year share and the autumn, it might be wonderful hydrogen all in bows, and that gives that Oakland then. Well, that's what if we added some fruits to that, let's Pez an meddlers on the on the stand, and you get not really rich intense. Look with things that suit being that right? And I can picture that in my mind's eye just listening to you. But in the springtime you might be doing it with with. Somebody comes to me and they say we love column. Love flowers wants to look like this photograph of peonies on the party is on the twelve of much. Well, then I think tune-ups will do they look good mass together and, and colorful, and, and you can get that feeling getting, I'm going to get right? You can give the clamp that, that same experience. They just don't know that it doesn't matter which flower, it is if sometimes it takes up while to get coming. Coming. Unequally if you want that beautifully Assyria airy, look the best thing would be to say let's decided color, and leave the rest to me. I think increasingly because social media that's harder. They photographs. Right. Or you get the you get the Instagram or Pinterest inspiration board. Yeah we did one week old it. They the mood board standoff, because she would send us board and say, I love this. Can you send me your ideas? So we would make a mood board and Senate by you say I like everything, but this left one on the one of the bottom, right? I don't like tool and this is my new mood board. Could you said your ideas box, do another board these mood boards back and forward until the joy of it was sucked out completely? And there was no create. I couldn't really remember what we were doing. Oh my goodness. So his standoff, we did the Joel. But she was happy. But I felt it could have been Besse. It was, you know, eight on design boards over design overcoat, right over flavored too much salt in the suit. That's right. To me tinkering with that people. Yeah. So I love to hear your story of how you got into flowers because it is an maybe there's no perfect path. But this sounds very much. You fell down the rabbit hole of flowers versus going to some formal. Yes. Yes. Really compete township would be called days apprenticeship. Yeah. And more by luck than intention. And do you think that, that maybe is why you're so focused on seasonality and also maybe the old sort of pre nineteen fifties techniques of foam? And that you're, you're using. Green mechanics, basically, I don't know how to discredit. I don't feel that I don't I feel that what I'm doing has been become has become a topic. I don't feel it's really very different to what I always. I did use foam. Of course, I use everybody used foam. I never liked it. I never liked the touch smell. I didn't know why I didn't. I didn't think it was necessarily thing that had ecological issues. Okay because we didn't write none of us did. And you said that you were training was with some proteges Constance spry company Kubo can in love. Okay. So that, that was more of a chicken wire chicken wa- situation. The out of the right container said that we use the set of water. Really great new invention. On this free, or you figure out how to use some kind of foliage or fluffy flower, mechanic, choice. Yeah. So then you mentioned that the foam just kind of came to you, maybe with some freelancers saying, why aren't you using this? Yeah, the thing about, oh, you can do this and shirt. I mean this was before Flos, wills and before the obligatory archway over the door. We just did those days, you sort of would do an ice plumps. I decided the church speech vote, right? Sometimes a of thing has become the photo opportunity. Sure. That is saying, we all want want on Instagram. Yeah. You need to be framed by an honest with laws before. How do you do an archway of flowers thin? Well technique being depends on the budget shirts if worse, I get so many messages to begin with. It's all very well for you as all right for you. You don't have I do every job. I do as a budget. You have constraints like Mt. Sign it right. We do we do not have money's no object thrown ever. I never have had that ever thirty years. Never do you think that's just as an aside? Do you think that just because flowers are often they have to get in line behind the caterer behind the dress? You're kinda down the pecking order a little bit. I would say ninety percent of the time you all okay, sometimes some of things that's the most thing is was flaws. I almost think it's not just the flaws you creating an ambulance, you're creating a mood and the fact that it's a transient beautiful thing that might only lost for four hours for the length of. Meal shirt, I think that's part of its beauty. Absolutely on the fact that you're from for those for us, you're immersed immersed in nature and that you completely. This homage to the world of nature in front of you with delicious food a delicious wanting that's the Pitney of civilization. Yes, it's something incredible about being involved in that process. So. I've forgotten the question, but it is just about the budget about budget, the budget, the budget shouldn't sometimes the budget becomes like the obsession. I think the look of it should be the obsession of the mood. You want to create and you can create a move just with four branches if it's a small budget or go have beautiful by Burnham that in pots will live lying after the event like you just showed me saluting. Yeah. That's under many ways to skin color, as they used to before cruelty to animals was. So I asked you about what led up to that question was, how would you decorate the arch of a doorway? Transgressed. What would depend if there was a budget to have a structure made? Right. That one could Filipa critic did Wessex's wedding last year. She made a she didn't make it on. Well, made a metal structure, which held buckets, which then could be covered with chicken. Everything's fed into water, and you can use water. Tubes foot extra things you can make exact what, what you, we all saw that looked so spectacular. So it was an engineering feat, but it was very. Rent's of way of. That's, that's if someone the other thing is shouldn't people cut the cloth to fit. What they've got to spend. Yes. So someone has twenty pounds thirty dollars, and they want to do an entree of the church. They should the florist or the floral designer should say. So this is what you can afford. One spectacular spray of sweeps up sedan. Let's by I don't know. I don't know a we did a party last year where I bought a notch way of growing Hornby. Oh, it means that that's not employers and the garden. So somehow that was worth spending money on. Yes. And it was a green. Yes. So that's so smart. I'm not that's sort of the it's developing relationships with growers. Yes. And it saying what could you could you grow? Or what have you gotten they might say what, you know this. Nobody's bolted but it's very anything that would do it right. We're doing the thing tomorrow, which to use that retold truck, you're spot jasmine ody's, which is highly scented, it isn't jasmine. But it's it's smells like guys lowering shrimp, exactly which we have been growing and tripod. So we're going to put those in big with these truckloads of, of scented, glorious things either side of a doorway and have to meet in the middle. That is the problem. If vertical element is all you really need. It doesn't have to more art, just as well all saying is on a budget. If you've got enough money to have a structure made than you can meet in the middle, and you can do. Or you could be clever and have a structure. That's very adaptable. What do you do in the dead of winter do weddings in December or January flight above ages for the full months? We do do weddings. We all well for you. Though both of me always we. Due struggle with usually the client. I'm sure it's because he has the same complaints actually. But if they could only realize the magic, and I mean forget weddings, but any party, the magic you can get out of niche in covered branches of candlelight jasmine plants. I really love things like jasmine imported. I'm I'm really grown in homes for us, and probably, but you can forge a spectacular show and narcissi. We have not side from about end of November. But the problem is you have to like those flaws. Yes. And where I really struggled when abroad test my favorite, flower, arose, and the, the wedding is on, December the thirtieth, and you think why didn't you get my June? So unlike in the US where we can at least get California growing roses in, in December January, we have domestic you have domestic. My first choice. Have a domestic with greenhouse grower of roses in the UK often the way to. No. We don't have that. I mean, we have much we Italian, we all the size of the state of California practically. Yes. And so you very lucky. Yeah, you've got every climate practically at any one time. Right. So it's still defeats. My sense of understanding, what I go to America. And they offer me something from Japan or something from Holland. Why do you even need anything from Japan? I knew the not the problem. Products in cramp. Oh, yeah, but would it not be encouraging American rose to to go to Japan and find out how they grow that way? And do it there -absolutely, that is happening on on. Progressive scale of Hugh intrepid growers who are trying to get hold of that shin- material or. Yeah. I mean one hopes that it isn't sort of did not motivated unfettered by more chemicals than but I mean. I just mean, like hybrid yes, it's a hybrid carnation, and the Japanese are brilliant or finding those things developing those things. But they should be Japan. Yes. But the population of North America and Europe and the UK is so much bigger. So you were just in New York. I was so disappointed that I couldn't be there to hear the panel that you were hosted by flower schooling chuckle little bit about the topic was about sustainability, right? Yes, it was it was at the presence to toot. Okay. It was all about sustainability. Eilly Johnson come up with the idea. And she invited four of us and she very cleverly broadened beyond flowers. It was called beauty an ethics the autism stained. But the, the terrific Todd. It is a trick, topa topic, because it is beauty is what we're all about. Let's not pretend that we're we're trying to be just a week. We do have to make decisions where the beauty doesn't suffer. Absolutely. We have to lead with the or else, people are going to tune out upset lately, and she invited an incredible man called Eric Fleischer, who is basically a soil expert who spoke to us about the health of us soil. And how we have basically the invention of chemical nitrogen fertilizers. We have killed us oil, but can come back. It is it is it isn't a lost a lost cause a toll, and she invited his wife Andrea, Phillip pony to speak about how she has used very. Green approaches in the design of gardens and in the design of houses. Well into relation between the two and again, I suppose Andrea doesn't think of it as a product. I think a lot of people think sustainability is another product, they can sell. It is a way of living away of thinking, and making decisions love the it's, it's just it's an approach. It's not a product. Right. And my great friend, Emily Thompson, who yes is one of the, to me, the most brilliant, flower designers in the world. Yes. Door her. I do on a door what she does and I do how she does it and the four of us to neither of us had met the soil expert, or the, the other design, but emanate great friends. And so it was a very special evening and were you and was it moderated? Then, by I lean it was moderated by Clint Smith. Okay. Who is a another great agree? Agree curator of knowledge because, of course he was the editor for so long veranda magazine. Right. He knows about beauty. Yes. And he knows about drawing the interesting things from other editors in his magazine to produce a good article and giving and he was brilliant. So you all had this general topic, and then the, the dialogue, just kind of organic -ly involved or spoke for fifteen was the agreed. I think some people. Each toasty for fifty minutes with pictures. So we had a pop each of us, unto the PowerPoint showing photographs of work showing photographs of themes that we were trying to describe, and then we had an open discussion on open forum, where people could ask questions. And that was really interesting that could've gone on for another two is because I'm sure that the questions stimulated all these this thing I'd also four Pinon aged people to answer each question. And I think we could have had, we could have had four days that we could have done a week of it. I liked that. It was sort of interdisciplinary approach of people from horticulture design and gardens and floral. And I'm wondering. First of all, you said you thought it was audiotaped or film. So I try to see a call was to share that with, with the listeners of the podcast, a what did you share in your fifteen minutes? So I realized that. When people come to the talk that's series. This is quite it wasn't just about the fluff of look at that pretty flower, it had a headed kind of academic, not academic a little bit more. Yes. Because -education educationally, great with great would of course beat in the Pratt institute. They were taking it seriously. It was part of the program. Well respected in it. Isn't it? And they were brilliant, and they were, they were so enthusiastic. And so welcoming of the idea and the format I realized. Few years ago that people actually sometimes you see words written down. Something I'd not realize for longtime, but should photographs and told but Don. Don, you hear them and you see them it makes more of an impact. So I did some written things that I felt very important Epping things like. This year. We went to Solano on, of course. The main thing is the architect gowdy and you don't necessarily think about it until you see in person, something, like the Pacific of the family, how extraordinarily intelligent his process was, and he said somebody what really sucks. He said, if you want to be original, you need to get back to the origin, and, of course, then comes the question, which to me is the whole fundamental of, of what I do. What is the origin of flowers, shivers was so you? But to me, it's not even clever. It's like abyss and essential. What is the why do we bring them inside is the first question? Right. We've been them inside because we want to see nature. I think. I mean, if you think you bring them inside to impress your friends, your own a different, why do we give to someone who's just had a baby or whose mother has just died? It's like it's like fundamental reason for having those, there's a visceral quality that you don't always well, it's back to language flowers, you don't even need to speak aren't doing up dented, which is the other than that needs, so different. Something I'm passionate about because it emphasizes that side flaws. And then the next question in the same topic the origin of flaws. Why do we have them when do they come from? They come from garden or field, or they come from nature. And if you detach too much from that, then you might as well use fluffy cushions. Absolutely. And you might as well put a pile of fluffy cushions on your table and say, this is pink and red and Greece centerpiece, nice admire people when they do. They're not seeking nature the then then it's different. Yeah. But I think if it's going to be flaws think where they come from and hence my passion for the guard museum. And I just wish more florists would get that link. Yes. And would even grow a pot plant on the window. So the just see that you have to, and Emily says we aren't gardeners. We aren't in the process of gardening in the process of dying dying flowers because what's the dying had that kind of? And I love it too, because it makes you, it's always of making people think. Yes. And to me, I want people to be moved by nature unto be moved by the beauty of nature, not by my cleverness braid if it exists. But I do know what I'm saying thinking back to your, your comment when you were describing going to New Zealand, and that, that I don't know what time of year it was. But there wasn't a lot of it was August for us winter for them. Okay. And then they kept saying you were going to teach workshop or something a weekend for people to come to this amazing place called Cape kidnappers, which is I mean, hotel doesn't do it Justice. It's like a an exquisitely thought out loge with hugely EKO from the credentials in the middle of a million acre estate on the edge of the sea. And it's mean it's sublime it's that's the only word for it. I've never felt so pampered and special without that awful feeling of it being precious. Right. It was very special that landscape just imprinted on your Heike just extraordinary Zealand is extrordinary, and they because they actually quite recent too. Tourism and a lot of ways they have they're doing it differently. So it was a very exciting. That you didn't want to give them a list of, of flowers to order for you. You wanted to just know what was said blue Han. But I think the God a Cape kidnappers was on, on board. And that seems governors usually are because they won't they're gone to be appreciated under work to be appreciated because people won't pastas absolute. And so he was he was totally on board. And the wonderful woman who does the flaws that callsas on told she was talking Boorda's about, you said, okay about let's go for it. That's do it. So basically you are able to harvest. I was able to arrive at the Perez goodness and drive around with the Gardner. And he would say, that's cold, blah, blah, blah. And I would say can I cut a few branches of that? And it was a lot of indigenous plants. Oh, may not nearly all indigenous but a lot of things that just grow well in. Yeah. Happy that and the gardens are not trying to be Madame Pompidou's Gaden than trying to be anything other than an. There's no straighten and you see them go. We'll talk about inspiration than that was going back to the origin of them place. Absolutely. That is what I think, is so seem, so obviously, it's, yes, some, I think is, actually, the opposite of intelligent. It's just thinking, what is the obvious thing. Well back to product versus process or philosophy. And yeah. So if you're trying to sell some product, you don't you need to create a reason for them to spend money. Yes. And but if you're just responding to nature, it's the other thing that way, it doesn't have an obvious price. Of course, go to price. And of course you charge to do it. But when you go in new, cut it, you don't think immediately goodness. That's about one hundred seventy five dollars. You just think. Wow. Isn't that amazing? You those rows that you've seen. How much are they with priceless? Priceless to actually. Just the fact that they're grown by people, you know, and they were harvested yesterday today, this than the cut from a shrub, that's growing naturally. They're not they're not cut from shrub. That's producing five foot long stems with a little flower. Anything but uniform totally the opposite of uniform, so your client will receive those and that's for a special fiftieth best tomorrow. How will you arrange those, we are registered quite botanically in sort of specimen, vases, so that the flower can actually be seen as a flaw? That's the other thing I love, I love arranging things like those dine Jasmina Montel pizza where you can actually see the shape of the thing you cannot. You cannot enjoy you see jasmine. You look at that and see flaws. Right. And you think that came from the garden. Yes, I did it came from somebody else's got enough. The street I broke it over post because I thought that nice. Nice. I love it. Well, I know we don't have a lot of time. I went I just maybe rep up by asking you how can people who are listening to this podcast all over world come? We're the upper -tunities to hear from you or to study with you, or do do you have a workshop schedule or we do do workshops here? But we find that we shouldn't we don't do too many a because for many reasons, but tech assume being selfish take so much time if a workshop for twelve people just take so much time to organize and days. Everyone wants a delicious lunch and they won't flag give and take so much time. Yeah. When people invite you to speak in let them run the show, the NATs. And also, they can charge whatever they want. That's the other thing we, we find it hard to know what to price of us about because I would rather be doing what shops for young flower designers who want to get whatever wisdom. I compose on, but they called afford to bed a load of money, right? So you end up if you charge enough, you end up alienating. I get more of that over well for you enough. And you end up with people who maybe do it in a Hobie sort of, which is also. But it's hard so hard. But if you have them there on their posted on your website, there'd be posted. We have a special dedicated site, just to chill. And we'll provide the link to that young. Okay. And also, I do think that the God museum. Yes. And I wanted to briefly here about this is this a new a new museum? No, the God museum has been going since probably the nineteen seventies. Okay in a blended right in London. No church. That was about to be pulled on, and basically someone discovered that there was a tomb that of try discount, and try to Scott was, of course discount chat. Try this great plant hunter. Right. And he was God to king Charles, the second of England. And in his time he was quite a celebrity, and he had a thing called a museum of curiosities where people could go in the dodo away or a whale to. They have thing that collect me disparate. And in those days, it must have been extraordinarily like a Disneyland things that never seen. The God museum has several aspect to me as, as one of the trustees amazing trustees and one of them, nNcholas Schulman she wants gave this talk. She said the museum is one of those few museums that contain the thing it purports to be about because. It goes con containing Gaden. So what does it do? It's got an amazing director Christopher would is an exceptional person every way, and he has invented, I think that's the word, I would use ways of bringing people who want to learn about gardens or who are interested in nature together as a really good restaurant shops. You sold me. I'm head over there, but somehow flowers have a role in this garden. So he absolutely feels that flows and the doing the flaws the design flaws, whatever you want to call on a similar level to the garden designers, and that it is not form as gone designed, right? And that is a rare shoot in England and England quite often Kroft, something like knitting, or home cooking. But something restaurant, cooking home cooking bake a cake. Right. Florists about sort of level, there's sort of a hierarchy the gardening world is a little bit of a bit definitely much high okay botanical artist. If you arrange Nevada's, your trades person if you paint the vase with the dirig- did your oh, my gosh. That's such an interesting point isn't that I'm not the one who invented that point. But I, sometimes I was Christa absolutely puts them as, as, as part of a similar spectrum the artist who paints them couldn't do it if God did. Grow them. And might not think of doing of the flower designer didn't arrange it. So he brings together an extraordinary variety of disciplines. And I think I just find it was inspirational place to go its collection of a permanent collection and as good an exhibition at all times. It's tiny. But in the in the Ponant collection, they've got a thing, which I every time I see it, it moves me, and I showed a photograph of it to the to the to the people at the institute, lecture on sustainability speaking of wife laws are important. It's a small. Panel and has got dried flower dead plows that were pressed sent by a soldier in the first World War from the trenches back to his fiancee, goodness. And I feel that is one of the things for me that a pit him is, is why they're important. Right. That he even sold them in the middle of all those corpses and horrors, and that, that to her, she must have received maybe he pressed them and sent them to maybe she got them as little flower over, but she pressed new, there's not a lot of beauty left in them, but the sentiment and that's to me, we all need to be reminded of that sentiment. I love that. If you go there today. And every time I see it. I found a lump in my throat because it's just. Transcends time. And the message is so simple, albeit a very private one that has not become public, but it makes a really strong point. It's also universal, like there's some totally all have in our experience can relate to that. Shane you. I've got to stop this interview, I'm not gonna let you get to lunch. But I do say that it is, we're here in may and coming up in June is British flowers and the garden museum is also hosted in you for something that you'll be doing. So the British law, we village flowers, we, we have hosted the I'm saying, we Grundy as, if I owned the God museum. We hosted last year for the first time because we felt that actually photograph prior to that it was basically photographs which were put online. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We thought we really want people to be able to come. We won't. We won't florist able to bring their clients and say, look what I've done or to be able to be an spot young people to be inspired to think of a Korean flow. She said we very ambitious Louis did a week British flaws. We was for a week in Magog museum and six people, six six fineness which into to create an installation, we learned to look from them, Lovie, who would have thought that you needed light. That sort of thing. Indoors. And also, you just realize that flaws need to be lit. Yes. When they're in an installation, we learned a lot, so you need to turn the heating. Does your a lot of flowers? So this year we're doing slightly shorter and returning the heat off. A few other little amendments, I sure wish that I could visit, but I will, I will watch from afar and doing break that we making green Eka front he would have would is lease offensive to encourage people who might not think, in a sustainable way to come and see what can be done. And we are also using using mural. So we've also invited flou- designed to necessarily known as sustainable EKO Florio's. Right. They well known as designers who have embraced the concept. And I think that's very exciting as well. I think so too. I think that, that whole adage that artists thrive when there's restraint constraint brilliant, adage, you're giving them some. Yeah. Some boundaries. Citing on making the ego quite hard to get in the way, which, again, I think, is the that's the essential bit for good for good design. I think the ego has to be slapped back of it, and the whole community then, yes. Yes. I can talk to you many more hours. But I think you so much for sharing a little bit about your world with us today. It's just such a privilege to be with you. Mod and, and wanted to meet you for so long, that this is a real treat for me. I'm glad I came to London come, thank you so much. Shame pleasure. Thank you so much for joining my conversation with the inspiring Shane Connolly. There's not much more to say other than. Wow. What an incredible human, and what an incredible experience to spend time with him, it was an honor to share this conversation with you a leave you with my favorite quote from today's conversation. Shane quoting Spain's, most famous architect, Antoni gowdy, which is if you want to be original, you need to get back to the origin, shink continues and ask, what is the origin of flowers? What is a sensual? Why do we bring them inside because we want to see nature. Where do they come from a garden field major, if you detach from that you might as well use fluffy cushions? He says and Shane reminds us to not forget the fundamental reason for having flowers. What a beautiful lesson to learn. And relearn. Our Nick sponsor spotlight features the association of specialty cut flower growers formed in nineteen Eighty-eight ASEF. She was created to educate unite and support commercial cut flower growers its mission is to help growers produce, high-quality floral material and to foster and promote the local availability of that product. Learn more at ASEF G. And by the way, we're so excited that ASEF g has joined the slow flower summit as a sponsor, and we're going to have lots material about that organization for everyone who attends the summit in July. Now, let's visit the state of Maryland and meet on a rose. Pappas of on a rose floral design. She's part of our fifty states of slow flowers series on arose floral is a boutique floral design studio, based in Bethesda, Maryland, on the outskirts of Washington DC, specializing in one, one of a kind arrangements and floral designs, which are solely sourced from flowers from Ana Pappas, personal gardens and from local flower farms, and growers across America. One of her studio values is to provide an extremely personal approach often unseen in the event industry today. In addition to vent design on also offer seasonal Alicarte wedding florals daily arrangements for the home, and celebrate Tori occasions as well as private workshops, on a sources for seeds from a variety of the top American seed, companies, and farmers, including Florette Baker creek, botanical interest, Janis seed savers southern exposure, among others. She only uses organic seats for. Hurtles IRS and soil to ensure that the flowers being utilized for her special clients are free of any chemicals. I'm especially grateful to read a section about the sloth hours movement on us frequently asked questions page. That's a smart way to share her values and brand affiliation. With slow flowers. Let's learn more about HANA and about them barrel and fluoro- community. Well, I'm so excited today to put our state focus on Maryland with our fifty states of slow flowers series, and I'd like to welcome on Pappas of, on a rose floral design infest, Maryland. Hi, ana. Ever. Thanks for jumping on the line with me to talk about what's going on in your world. Of course. Happy to. Yeah. I think we met the first time we met was last year in Maryland at a flower farm at the American flowers week flower crown party that Kelly short hosted. Yes. There is that, and then there was also seem flower, Florida. Oh, that's right. And then with before. That's right. And then, of course you to the came to the lower summit. So our paths crossed number of times, I was just so excited that you have. Join so flowers and brought your flora perspective to our community and I just, just like to have you give us a little bit of a snapshot of Ana rose floral design, and how do you describe your business, and what are your key things that you focus on? So I have voted Florida's I'm business. And but does does you mentioned which is just outside of Washington DC. I have a grudge studio that I've built out nice little cooler, and you kind of my own, but I primarily catered to intimates special occasions, you know, less than fifty guests, I would say, probably twice a year I do larger weddings of two hundred plus but that's not really my niche, or just more people who come to me, and really want me to do it and, and I do it. But with you know, I have two little that are under the age of five and as I mentioned, I'm having by third and next Wednesday. Mike. Make sure squeezing. Little is running around. It's hard to commit to larger Vince. Sure, and so, I like to keep my client with small very selective with, which Vince, I take on, and I really liked to educate my clients about local flower season ability. I think that in our time and day with instant gratification and social media Pinterest, and Instagram. We really get lost as to what's available in season in what that really mean for event. And so for me. I really focus on the education when I've been clients in the beginning. And I, you know, of course, I find that when there've been some are, and then from there, I kind of stick or a color, palette opposed to promising specific flowers. If it's far enough in advance I have a wedding large of October that the Greek wedding. They won't whites and blues and surprise. And I'm growing Pacific values in my garden, that are white tones for that wedding grilling is son, and growing fest it, then we four we turned on the recorder use said to me that you don't really like to describe yourself as a farmer florist, because you respect the farmers, you buy from so much that, you know, you know that they're kind of different scale but, but you are growing you're doing some. I did some growing. I like it because I love of your larger farmers growing a larger scale and I'm not talking, you know, bass growing, but our farmers here, do grow in a larger scale and they have to be selected. They know what they're what they're they can sell. And so for me, I like to take a step back and, you know, find perhaps they may be more of the seeds or bulbs or tubers or. Something that just doesn't you know, they can't sell a lot of high like because adds that unique this, whether it's a folic or a flower, it self adds something different into an arrangement that you're not gonna see if you're going to a larger wholesaler, even to some of the local growers, and you have a pretty. Vibrant flower farming community in, in the state of Maryland. It's pretty is right? We do we have a wonderful community here, very large more so than people from realize, and it's growing every year. It's unbelievable. So are you. Who are you sourcing from or how are you? Planning your procurement, when you do have an wedding, that's an I that's a challenge. And I know part of your question was going to be down the road as far as landscape for local flower the head. You know, it really you know, the challenge, I'm sure it's not just here, but everywhere is, as a floral designer you also have to have things work for you in a way, that when you're procuring, all those flowers, I don't have an unlimited amount of hours to run, you know, anywhere. Fifteen minutes from my house to our plus for my house, Maryland, actually quite large, and we have some growers that are right on that Pennsylvania, Maryland border. You can take me an hour to get there. Sure. So we have what I in a lot of them have minimums for delivery, and it can become it can become very time consuming. I know Maryland is working very hard and trying to find a local and building out this. Kind of a wholesale. It'd be of all local growers. When things time. Yeah. Actually, you and a couple other people have mentioned that to me, so that's sort of the desire is there, but the pieces, have not quite fallen in place. It sounds like exactly exactly. And the desires there, the, the floor swan it the farmers wanted and even the clients within this area, you know, really want it. I was actually yesterday. I went to the farmers market down for my house to pick up suitcase for mother's day. My husband's mom and grandparents, and we had a lovely brunch. And Andrea was there and she's actually go to junior for, but. And I this farmers work open at nine o'clock I was there I say nine ten fifteen and she must have already had a thirty person waiting list with our plus week case. Warning people around that way. I mean, people want it's view. I mean it's beautiful logo flowers are beautiful. They they're more vibrant there. I mean it's the one in the need. Is there just how do we get that from the farms to the consumers? I know that the state of Maryland has cut flower Growers Association. That is gets a little bit of subsidy from maybe the State Department of agriculture but sounds like there's a lot of potential to do some. I don't know grant writing or finding. They're working on that in the background. I mean I before I got pregnant, I was kind of part of that group of trying to get things figured out with the department of agriculture and there's definitely a lot. It just it's gonna take a little bit time to get something going. Well, we'll circle back into. Yeah. We'll do a whole episode on that when it gets there, can you tell me about your path to flowers I feel like you kind of have it in your DNA, at least horticulture in and gardening from our past conversations. I feel like your family connection is pretty deep right? So it's interesting, I kind of I think flowers in general from both people there's style behind him. I think most people find their way to flowers 'cause maybe grandmother, had a card in our mother had a relation time growing up in certain areas. And for me, my grandmother, actually, loved roses. My name is rose because my grandmother, I love it early has she loves roses. And when I was in elementary school, middle school, I lived in I was actually from Florida, but I would go to upstate New York for the summers, and they had wasn't really a foreign, but I called it a farm, and it was, you know, acres upon anchors between, you know, an valley and play summers are filled with you spending time in her garden. They had fruit trees, and it was just I mean it was like the most picture perfect childhood in a way for summers just be running around wild out there. And when my husband and I purchased, I told the first thing I did was planted peonies, and then I also put into vegetable flower beds, and then about three years ago, we moved our current home, which is on its on acre, and I have been very. My husband always teases me about it precise on what gets planted where really aren't higher yard is in a mix of folic and flowers and blooming, you know, trees and it just so much fun. And for me, a lot of it was I had a passionate growing for my own purposes, and I got a point where it was. I had so much of an abundance of things and I was making arrangements for friends and family. And after my second was born I was just kind of, in this mommy, trench for lack of a better word and a friend came to me and said, you know, why don't you do this on the side? Right. Would be, you know it would be you'd be great at it. So it kind of built from there and, you know, I think the biggest challenge for me right now is, is gross. I have the desire and want to grow more, but I also have the understanding I have little ones, and so my priority is my little ones. And we'll see as it grows. I mean slow growth for me is, is good right now. Right. Well, it sounds like a way it's integrated you've integrated your lifestyle into a business to work for you, which means a mom, having a home based business and your entrepreneurial, but you're. You're making the business support your family and your creative desires as well. So wonderful. It is it, isn't my and take back. I actually grew up in agriculture family my father's and grandfather's business. They're one of the largest tomato growing operations in the country back when I was younger they have sent that businesses no longer in business. But my husband is also they have a farm in Tennessee, where they grow tomatoes, and then they also have a repack disturbing center here in Maryland. And so I have a very interesting connection with agriculture and I mean, and it's so much right now in the forefront of American grown products in American grown vegetables and fruits and imports and exports. So I'm hearing it all the time. Well, it may so impassioned about, you know, our farmers, whether that be someone who's growing flowers better. That'd be someone who's growing vegetable, just that's what our country was founded on, we're farmers. Right. And is it intimidate the tomato in the rose family? I feel like there's some. Botanical connection there. I don't know if I'm right or not. But I don't know. That's the farmer. I love I love it. Your middle name is rose is such a. Mosh to your grandmother and to your passion. And I'm suing your growing. You mentioned peonies and lots of other flowering ornamental, but I'm sure you're also growing some roses in your garden. I actually just purchased quite a few from grace rose element, California. What you're being shipped over, and this will be the first time I have little tea re like some little ones, this will be the first time growing larger roses and we'll see how they do Maryland. Yes. Exactly. Well, good luck. I hope you'll share some photos of your flowers and your your growing area with us and just love to introduce your particular focus of balancing design with some of your own product. I think that, that's a niche that more and more Florus are interested in. They don't wanna be farmers, but they do love the creativity. Like you mentioned of the things that perhaps, you can't get access to unless you grow them yourself. Exactly. One hundred percent. I don't ship, well, or travel, well, and it gives that it gives your designs that extra something extra something special that people just don't feel and right. And they come it makes me want to ask you what your ascetic is on, like, is it? Is it do feel like it's gives you a different look because of the way you're selecting your ingredients. I would say I design in a way that I see things growing. So if I see something growing in the garden, a specific way, I try to keep it as it's natural stay within whatever, Besse, let's being designed in. I would also say that people generally have said, you know, if you look on my social media sites or my website, that might is, I'm tend to flow seasonally, and which makes sense because I'm working with colors and blooms things that are within a seasonal timeframe. So that's interesting and makes a lot of sense in a way because it's not just the variety. But even the pallet changes with these super like I burning neon greens of early spring two things going a little more Tani and, and kind of moody in the fall. So it makes sense that the pellet reflects the seasons as well as the variety. Yeah. Definitely. So you're, you're having a baby at the end of may. You're already mentioned a giant wedding and Tober. How are you gonna get through summer? What is your strategy? Actually, right now to we actually had a flood in our house, as well. So we are living in little condo. I am renovating our whole good. All this is going on. You know what I have to say? Women women are so fierce you were getting so much done more than like three men. I love it. You know it's a good destruction for summer for us. Like I, you know, I also knowledge you know how much can handle, so my, my children, and it's been this is the big unfortunate thing for me. Not being my home here daily in the garden, my children, they love it. They love being out there they'd keep asking all the time. When things are in bloom, the moment anything colored comes in the first spring, my oldest one grabs at all. Oh, how funny. Yeah. I mean, we, we just, you know, right now, that's part of the reason I kind of took a little bit of a hiatus for myself and my business and I had just said, I'm not taking clients until September. So for summer, for me, it's going to be a lot more focus on my. So kind of my, my little family getting things back up to speed. And then being able to come back reinvigorated come fall to start back in. Well, well, you haven't completely disappeared because you are active us social media make I'll make sure to add links to your social media sites. So our listeners can. See what's going on in Maryland and see what's happening and, and your little corner in Bethesda. And I just wish you a wonderful delivery and joyous. Maternity leave if there is such a thing. You know, you're right. And then to maybe we'll, we'll connect next time on in the DC area lived to see your space, and loved to just wish that the Maryland scene of this hub of flowers that everyone is hoping for hope it comes together, and we'll, we'll definitely do a podcast about it. Once you guys have or you and the other volunteers were organizing. It have something to announce. Yeah, I I it's definitely coming into hopefully sooner than later. That's the kind of planning that has to happen in the off season. So I understand that people get busy. Well, thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much for sharing a little bit of what's happening in your world and will love. We'll look for the good announcements. The good news on social media. Thanks a lot on. I'm so grateful to you for joining me. And for spending your time listening to the slow flowers podcast today. Thank you tore entire community, flower farmers and floral designers who together define the slow flowers movement as our caused gains. More supporters, and more passionate, participants who believe in the importance of the American cut flower industry. The momentum is contagious. I know you feel it to value your support and invite you to show your things with a donation to support my ongoing advocacy education and outreach activities, you can find the donate button in the column to the right at Deborah printing dot com. Our final sponsor spotlight. Features Arctic Alaska panties a cooperative of family farms in the heart of Alaska working together to grow and distribute fresh stunning high-quality peony varieties during the months of July and August, Arctic Alaska peonies operates three pack houses supplying peonies throughout the US and Canada. Visit them today at Arctic Alaska peony stuck com. I'm so excited about the upcoming slow flowers summit. And I hope you can join me, and our vibrant and engaging lineup of presenters on July first and second in Saint Paul, Minnesota. One of the top reasons are ten days, love the slow. Lower summit is the opportunity to mix and mingle with other kindred spirits. So we want to make it easy for you to experience the summit and bring along your best friend partner, colleague, or team member with our plus one ticket promotion. Please grab your tickets before we sell out. This is the very last week to take advantage of our special plus one ticket. Promotion, which actually expires on may thirty first just in a few days. So take advantage of this generous offer at slow flowers, summit dot com. We'll also have links in the show notes for today's episode at Deborah printing dot com. So remember when you register for the slow flower summit, you can add a guest for two hundred and seventy five dollars. This discount applies to anyone who has already registered as well as new ticket buyers. You can find the plus one promo option by following the register link that south are summit dot com. And don't procrastinate because you only have a few days left to grab that plus one ticket. The slow flowers podcast has been downloaded more than four hundred seventy thousand times by listeners like you getting so excited. We're almost at the half million Mark. Thank you for listening commenting and sharing. It means so much. I'm Deborah printing host and producer of the SLA flowers podcast, next week, you're invited to join me in putting more American grown flowers on the table, one vase at a time, and if you like what you hear please consider logging onto items and posting a listener review the content and opinions, expressed here are either mine alone, or those of my guests alone, independent of any podcasts sponsor or other person company organization. The slow flowers podcast is engineered and edited by Andrew Kremlin. Learn more about his work at sound body movement dot com.
#180 Jeremi Suri: History of American Power
"The following is a conversation with jeremy surrey. A historian at ut austin whose research interests and writing are on modern american history with an eye towards presidents and general individuals who wielded power quick mention of our sponsors element monk pac bell campo for sigmatic and eight sleep. Check them out in the description to support this podcast as a side note. Let me say that in these conversations for better or worse. I seek understanding not activism. I'm not left nor right. I love ideas. Not labels and most fascinating ideas are full of uncertainty tension and trade offs labels destroy that i try ideas out. Let them breath for time. Try to challenge explore and analyze. But mostly i trust the intelligence of you the listener to think and to make up your own mind together with me. I will try to have. Economists and philosophers on from all points on the multidimensional political spectrum including the extremes. I will try to both have an open mind and to ask difficult questions when needed. I'll make mistakes. Don't shoot this robot. At the first sign of failure. I'm still under development pre release version zero point one as usual a few minutes of as now no ads in the middle as listening. I hate those. Give you time stem. So if you skip please check out. The sponsors by clicking on links and description is the way to support this podcast. I'm very picky with the sponsors. Which eight con so. Hopefully if you buy their stuff you'll find value in it just as i have. His episode is sponsored by element electrolyte. Drink mix spelled l. m. n. t. I've been doing a lot of kito and carnivore diets and fasting. And i think the number one thing to get those rights is to get your electrolytes specifically sodium potassium magnesium. That's where elements has been really helpful for me. Both when i'm exercising fasting all that kind of stuff. It really does make a huge difference. You know the thing that people talk about the kito diet is you get this kind of what they call kito flu. We feel groggy. There's headaches all the kind of stuff and that really most of the time could be fixed with getting the electrolytes into your system. Making sure you drink a lot of water and getting electrolytes element just makes it very easy to get that mix correct olympians use it tech people use it. I swear by this stuff. Try it at drink. Element dot com slash flex. That's drink elleman. T dot com slash lex. I highly recommended. If you're at all like me doing the kyoto diet or doing any kind of fasting element will be a lifesaver. This episode is also sponsored by monk. Pack kito nut and seed bars that contain one gram of sugar or less two to three grams of net carbs and there are only one hundred and fifty calories. My favorite is coconut almond dark. Chocolate second is peanut butter dark chocolate identity. Be really picky about the kind of snacks at partaken. So if i'm traveling or on the move in terms of Doing long distance running or just don't have quick easy access to Sort of a good meat or meat and veggies meal good. Snacks are essential and my favorite for the kind of lifestyle for the kind of diet live is a monk. Pack the macro makes is just right is delicious but it doesn't do any of the crazy amounts of sugar. So i don't recommend many snacks but of the ones i do recommend monk packers at the top so get twenty percents off your first purchase. Any monk pack product by visiting monk back dot com and entering code. Lex at checkout. If you don't like it for any reason they'll exchange it. That's monk pack dot com and enter code lex at checkout like. I said my favorite is coconut almond dark chocolate. So definitely one. I would recommend unless you hate coconut. Which apparently many people do i for one love coconut. This show is also sponsored by bell campo farms whose mission is to deliver me. You can feel good about meat. That is good for you. Good for the animals and good for the planet ball camels graze on open pastures and seasonal grasses resulting in meat that has higher nutrients and healthy fats. Plus friends is delicious. Bo campo has been the best meat have eaten at home is a little bit more expensive than store. Bought me but it's definitely worth it both in terms of taste and in terms of ethics. I'm actually going to visit a temple. Farm elite may maybe. I'll do a couple of videos and podcasts out there or maybe i'll just enjoy the experience. I'm not sure. But i'm a huge fan of what they're doing can't wait to check it out. If you can pay a little bit more money for the meat you consume. I think you're not going to regret it. You should definitely consider ordering some of their meets. You can do so by using code lek said bell canto dot com slash lacks for twenty percent off for the first time customers. That's code legs at bell campbell dot com slash lex though delivered straight to your door. I think you're gonna love it. This show's sponsored by forcing matic the maker of delicious mushroom coffee and plant based protein again. I think i heard this ad. Read on Cal newport's deep questions. Podcasts that are highly recommend. I've been binge listening to it. It has a lot of good productivity advice. I sometimes come shamed for the ways of my life. When i listen to cal because he often has stuff together identity. Embrace the chaos. I tend to be much worse than saying no to Projects and people and so on i just kind of brace. The chaos of it worked my ass off. Think cows much more structured but this so much to learn from him anyway. He's supportive forcing matic. So my i think the coffee is delicious. Which is the most important thing. But it's also really good for you. Get up to forty percent off and free shipping on mushroom coffee bundles. If you go to four sigmatic dot com slash lex. That's forcing matic dot com slash lex. This episode is also sponsored by eight sleep its pod pro mattress controlled temperature with. An app is packed with sensors and cool down to as low as fifty degrees. I need side of the bed separately. Go to sleep dot com slash lex to get special savings because i'm in the process of moving at currently don't have hey sleep on my bed and i really really miss it. It's kind of funny. How quickly you get used to amazing things and Is is definitely one of those. If you like your mattress already you can just get the pod broke. Cover that goes over your mattress and then you get all the nice features that they provide with the sensors in the app and so on but their mattress casinos. Also very nice. I recommend it if you don't have a mattress or if you look into upgrade your mattress they track a bunch of metrics like heart rate variability but honestly cooling alone is worth the money. That's what i actually most here in texas. Go to leap dot com slash lex. Get special savings. That's eight sleep dot com slash lex. This is the lex. Friedman podcast and here is my conversation with jeremy. Sorry you studied many american presidents throughout history so Who do you think was the greatest president in american history. The greatest american president abraham lincoln and tolstoy himself actually say that when he was in the caucasus. He asked these Peasants in the caucus. Who was the greatest man in the world that they had heard of. And they said abraham lincoln and why well because he gave voice to people who had no voice before he turned politics into an art. This is what tolstoy recounted the peasants in the caucasus. Telling him lincoln made politics more than about power. He made it an art. He made it a source of liberation and those living even far from the united states could see that model that inspiration from lincoln. He was a man who had two years of education yet. He mastered the english language and he used the language To help people imagine a different kind of world you see leaders and presidents or at their best when they're doing more than just manipulating institutions and power when they're helping the people imagine a better world and he did that as no other president has and you say he gave gave voice those who are voiceless Who you talking to About in general. Is this about african americans. There was this about just the populace in general certainly part of it is about slaves african americans and many immigrants Immigrants from all parts of europe and other areas of come to the united states but part of it was just four neri american citizens. The republican party for which lincoln was the first president was a party created to give voice to a poor white men as well as slaves and others and lincoln was a poor white man himself. grew up without slaves and without land which meant you had almost nothing. What do you think about the trajectory of that man with only two years of education. Is there something to be said about. How does one come from nothing and nurture the ideals that kind of make this country. Great into something where you can actually be a leader of this nation to spas those ideas to give the voice of the voiceless. Yes i think. I think actually hit the nail on the head. I think What he represented was the opportunity and that was the word that mattered for him. That came from the ability to yourself up to work hard and to be compensated for your hard work and this is at the core of the republican party of the nineteenth century which is the core of capitalism. It's not about getting rich it's about getting compensated for your work. It's about being incentivized to do better. Work and lincoln was constantly striving one of his closest associates Herndon said he was the little engine of ambition. That couldn't stop he. Chips just kept going taught himself to read taught himself to be a lawyer. He went through many failed businesses before he even reached that point. Many failed love affairs but he kept trying. He kept working and american society offered him what he wanted. American society to offer everyone else was the opportunity to keep trying to fail and then get up and try again. What do you think was the nature of that ambition. Was there hunger for power. I think lincoln had a hunger for success. I think he had a hunger to Get out of the poor station. He was in. He had a hunger to be someone who had control over his life. Freedom for him did not mean the right to do anything you want to do but it meant the right to be secure from being dependent upon someone else so in essence. He writes in his letters when he's very young. He hated being dependent on his father. He grew up without a mother. His father was a struggling farmer and he would write in his letters that his father treated him like a slave on the farm something. His hatred of slavery came from that experience. He didn't ever want to have to work for someone again. He wanted to be free and independent and he wanted again every american. This is the kind of jeffersonian dream to be the owner of themselves and owner of their future. That's a really nice definition of freedom. We often think kind of this very abstract notion of being able to do anything you want but really is ultimately breaking yourself free from the constraints like the very tight dependence on whether it's the institutions or on your family or the expectations or the community whatever be able to be to realize yourself within the constraints of your own abilities. It's still not true. Freedom is true freedom is probably sort of almost like designing video game characters. The like that i agree. I think i think that's exactly right. I think freedom is not that i can have any outcome i want. I can't control outcomes the most powerful freeze person. The world cannot control outcomes but it means at least. I get to make choices. Someone else doesn't make those choices for me. Is there something to be said about lincoln and on the political game front of it. Which is he's accomplished. some of them. I i don't know but it seems like there was some tricky politics on. We tend to not think of it in those terms because of the dark aspects of slavery which tend to think about it in sort of ethical and human terms but in in their time it was probably as much a game of politics. Not just these broad questions of human nature right. It was a game. So is there something to be said about being a skillful player. In the game of politics that you'd take from lincoln absolutely and Lincoln never read. Karl von clausewitz. The great nineteenth century german thinker on strategy in politics but but he embodied the same wisdom. Which is that. Everything is politics if you want to get anything done and this includes even relationships. There's a politics to it. What does that mean. it means that You you have to persuade coerce encourage people to do things. They wouldn't otherwise do i. Lincoln lincoln was a master at that. He was a massive that for two reasons. He had learned through his hard life to read people to anticipate them to spend a lot of time listening. One thing i often tell people is the best leaders are the listeners. Not the talkers. And then second Lincoln was very thoughtful and planned every move out. He was thinking three or four moves. Maybe five moves down the chessboard while others were wounded. Move number one or two. That's fascinating to think about him. Just listening to studying. That saw you know they they. They look great fighters in this way. Like the first few rounds of boxing mixed martial arts. You're studying the movement of your opponent and you know sort of The define the holes at. That's really interesting thing to think about it. Is there in terms of relationships. Where do you think as president or as a politician is the most impacted be had. I've been reading a lot about hitler recently and one of the things that more and more. I'm starting to wonder what the hell did he do alone in a room with a one on one with people because it seems like that's where he was exceptionally effective. When i think about certain leaders I'm not sure stalin. Was this way i apologize. Been very obsessed with these this period of human history It just seems like certain leaders extremely effective one on one. A lot of people think of hitler he in lincoln as a speech maker as a great charismatic speechmaker. But it seems like to me that some of these guys were really effective inside a room would think what's more important your effectiveness to To make a hell of a good speech sort of being in a room with many people or is it all boil down to one on one. Will i think in a sense. It's both one needs to do. Both in most politicians most leaders are better at one or the other. It's the rare leader. Who can do both. I will say that if you are going to be a figure who the president or the leader of a complex organization not a startup but a complex organization where you have many different constituencies and many different interests. You have to do the one on one really well. Because a lot of what's going to happen is you're going to be meeting with people who represent different groups. Spread the leader of the labor unions. The leader of the your investing board etc. And you have to be able to persuade them. And it's the intangibles that often matter most lincoln skill and it's the same that fdr had Is the ability to tell a story. I think hitler was a little different. But i'm i'm what i've read of. Stalin he was a storyteller to one on one story. Yeah that's my my understanding is that he he and what lincoln did. I don't wanna compare like stahl. Lincoln did is he. He was not confrontational. He was happy to have an argument if an argument where to be had but actually what he would try to do is move you through telling a story that got you to think about your position in a different way to basically disarm you and franklin roosevelt. Did the same thing. Ronald reagan did the same thing. Storytelling is a very important skill. It's almost heartbreaking that we don't get to have our maybe can correct me if i'm wrong on this but it feels like we don't have a lot of information how all of these folks were in private one on one conversations even if we get like stories about it it's like again sorry to bring up hitler but like People have talked about his piercing gaze. No one on one like there's a feeling like he's just looking through you. I wonder it makes me wonder. It was lincoln. Somebody who's a little bit more passive like who's more who the ego doesn't shine. It's not like an overwhelming thing or is it more like Again don't wanna bring them controversial figures but Donald trump words more menacing right. There's more like physically menacing thing words almost like a almost like a bullying kind of Dynamic so i wonder you know. I wish i wish we knew. I wish 'cause it's from a psychological perspective. I wonder if there's a thread that connects most great leaders question So i think the best right around this is max vaber right and he talks about the power of charisma The term charisma comes from right and vabres use of it actually talk about profits and i think he has a point right leaders who were affected in the way you describe our leaders who feel prophetic or vaber says they have a kind of magic about them and i think that can come from different sources. I think that can come. That can come from the way someone carries themselves could come from the way they use words So maybe there are different kinds of magic that that that someone develops but i think there are two things that seem to be absolutely necessary. I is you have to be someone who sizes up the person on the other side of the table. You cannot be the person who just comes in and read your brief and then second. I think it's interactive and there is a quickness of thought so you brought up donald trump donald trump deep thinker at all. But he's quick. And i think that quickness is part of it's different from from delivering a lecture where it's the depth of your thought. Can you for forty five minutes analyze something. Many people can't do that but they still might be very effective if they're able to quickly react size up the person on the other side of the table and react in a way that moves that person the way they want to move them yet and there's also just the couple with the quickness is a kind of instinct about human nature. Yes sort of asking the question. What is this person. worry about. What is what are the biggest problem. Somebody What does this tumor schwartz said to me these businessman. I think he said like what i've always tried to do is try to figure out how like ask enough questions to figure out. What is the biggest problem. In this person's life tried to get a sense of what is the biggest problem in their life. Because that's actually what they care about most and most people don't care enough to find out and so he kinda wants to sneak up on that and find that and then use that to then build closeness in order to then probably doesn't put it in those words but to manipulate the person into whatever should do whatever the heck they want. And they think i think part of Part of it is that in part of the effectiveness. Donald trump has quickies able to figure that out you've Written a book about how the role and power the presidency has changed so has how has it changed since lincoln time the evolution of the presidency as a concept which seems like a fascinating lens through which to look at american history. Sure as president. You know we. We seem to only be talking about the president's maybe general here and there but it's mostly the the story of america's often told through presidents. That's right that's right and one of the points. I've tried to make in my writing about this And and various other activities is we use. this word. president is if it's something timeless but the office has changed incredibly did just in link from lincoln's time to the present which is one hundred and fifty years. He wouldn't recognize the office today. And george washington would not recognize that in lincoln just as i think a ceo today would be unrecognizable to a rockefeller or carnegie of one hundred and fifty years ago. So what are some of the ways in which the offices change. I'll just pointed three. They're a lot One presence now can communicate with the public directly. I mean we've reached the point now where president can have direct almost one on one. Communication president can use twitter if he so chooses to circumvent all media That was on thinkable lincoln in order to get his message across often wrote letters to newspapers and waited for the newspaper. Horace greeley in the new york tribune to publish his love. That's how we communicated with the public that weren't even any speaking opportunities. So that's a big change right. We feel the president in our life. Much more that's why we talk about him. It's more That also creates more of a burden. It's the second point presents under a microscope presents under a microscope. You have to be very careful what you do and what you say. And you're judged by a lot of the elements of your behavior that are not policy relevant. In fact the things we judge most and make most of her decisions on about individuals are often that and then third the power. The president has It's it's inhuman actually and this is one of my critiques of how the office has changed as one person has power on a scale. That's that's i think. Dangerous in a democracy and certainly Something the founders. Two hundred and twenty years ago would have had trouble. Conceiving presidents now of the ability to deliver force across the world to literally assassinate people with remarkable accuracy. And that's an enormous power. That presidents have your sense. This is not to get conspiratorial. But do you think a president currently has the power to initiate this assignation of somebody of a political Enemy to or a terrorist leader order. That kind of thing to to frame that person in a way where assassination is something that he alone or she alone can decide to do. I think it happens all the time. And it's not to be conspiratorial. This is how we fought terrorism by targeting individuals. Now you might. Cities were not elected leaders of state. But these are individuals with a large following. I mean the killing of osama bin laden was was an assassination operation And we've we've taken out very successfully many leaders of terrorist organizations. And we do it every day. You're saying that back lincoln stein george. Washington's time there was more of a balance of power like a president could not initiate this kind of assassination. Correct i think presidents did not have the same kind of military or economic power. We could talk about how president can influence a market right by saying something about where the money is going to go or Singling out a company or critiquing company in one way or another. They didn't have that kind of power now. Much of the power that lincoln or washington had was the power to mobilize people to then make their own decisions at the start of the civil war. Lincoln doesn't even have the power to bring people into the army. He has to go to the governors and asked the governor's to provide soldiers. So the governor of wisconsin governor of massachusetts. Could you imagine that today. So but yes we. They used speeches and words to mobilize versus direct action enclosed door and varmints an initiating wars for example correct. It's difficult to think about if you look at barack obama for example this. If you're listening to this and you're on the left or the right please make this political. In fact if your political person and you're getting angry at the mention of the word obama or down trump. Please turn off this pocket. We're not gonna get very far. I hope we maintain a political discussion about even the modern presidents that viewed through history. I think there's a lot to be learned about about the office and about human nature. Some people criticised brock obama for for sort of Expanding the military industrial complex engaging in more and more wars as opposed to sort of the initial rhetoric was such that we would pull back From sort of be more skeptical in our decisions to wage wars so from the lens of the power of the presidency as the modern presidency. The fact that we continue the warrant of ghanistan different engagements in military conflicts. Do you think barack obama could've stopped that. Do you put the responsibility on that expansion on him. Because of the implied powered that the presidency has or is this power just sits there and if the president chooses to take it they do and if they don't they don't almost like you don't want to take on this possibility because of the the burden of the responsibility so a lot of my research is about this question not just with obama and my conclusion and i think the research is pretty clear on this. Is that structure has a lot more effect on us than we like to admit which is to say that the circumstances the institutions around us drive our behavior more than we like to think so barack obama. I'm quite certain. Came into the office of the presidency. Committed to actually reducing the use of military force overseas and reducing presidential war making power as a trained lawyer. He had a moral position on this actually and he tried and he did withdraw american forces from iraq and was of course criticized by many people for doing that but at the same time he had some real problems in the world to deal with terrorism being one of them and the tools he has are very much biased towards the use of military force. It's much harder as president to go and get vladimir putin and xi jinping to agree with you. It's much easier to send these wonderful toys. We have an incredible soldiers. We have over there and when you have congress which is always against you. It's also easy to use the military because you send them there and even if members of congress from your own party or the other are angry at you. They'll still fund the soldiers. No member of congress wants to vote to starve our soldiers overseas. So they'll stop your budget. They'll even threatened not to pay the debt but they'll still fund your soldiers and so you are pushed by the circumstances. You're in to do this and it's very hard to resist. So that's i think the criticism of obama the fair one would be that he didn't resist the pressures that were there but he did not make those pressures. So is there something about the putting the responsibility on the president to to form the structure around him locally such that he can make the policy that the re that matches the rhetoric. So when i'm talking to his hiring to basically just everybody you work with you have powers president to to to fire and hire or to to basically schedule meetings in such a way that can control your decision making so i imagine it's very difficult to to Get out of gun. Astana iraq when most of years scheduled meetings are generals or something like that. But if you you're organized yes and you reorganize cool you have like night talks with you potentially have a huge ripple effect on the policy. I think that's right. I think Who has access to. The president is absolutely crucial and presidents. Have to be more strategic about that. They tend to be reacting to crises because every day is a crisis. Yeah and if you're acting to a crisis you're not controlling access because the crisis driving you. So that's one element of it. But i also think and this is the moment we're in right now. Presidents have to invest in reforming the system the system of decision-making should we have a national security council. That looks the way it does. Should our military be structured. The way it is. The founding fathers wanted a military that was divided they did not want a unified department of defense that was only created after world war two. Should we have as large military as we have. Should we be in as many places There are some fundamental structural reforms. We have to undertake. And part of that is who you appoint but part of that is also how you change the institutions that the said the american system is that it's a dynamic system it can be adjusted it has been adjusted over time. That's the heroic story. The the frustrating story often takes us a long time to make those adjustments until we go into such bad circumstances that we have no choice so in the battle of power of the office of the president versus the united states. Military the department of defense. Do you have a sense that the president has more power ultimately so to decrease the size of the department of defense to withdraw from any wars or increased them. Amount of wars is the president. You're kind of implying. The president has a lot of power here in this scale. Yes the president has a lot of power and we are fortunate and it was just proven in the last few years that our military uniquely among many countries with large military's is very deferential to the president and very restricted in its ability to challenge the president So that's a strength of our system but the way you reform the military is not with individual decisions. It's by By having a strategic plan that re examines what role it plays. So it's not just about whether we're in afghanistan or not. The question we have to ask is when we look at our toolbox of what we can do in our foreign policy. Are there other tools. We should build up and therefore some tools in the military. We should reduce. that's the broader strategic. Question the may. I ask you the most absurd question of all that you did not sign up for. But it's especially. I've been hanging out with a guy named joe. Rogan recently says very important For for for me and him to figure this out if a president because you said you imply the president's very powerful if the president shows up and and the us government is in fact and possession of aliens alien spacecraft. Do you think the president will be told a more responsible. Adult historian question version of that is Is there some things that the machine of government keeps secret from the president or as the president ultimately at the very center. So if you like map out the set of information and power you'd like cia. You have all these organizations that like the do the the machinery of government not just like the passing of bills but like Gaining information homeland. security Actually like engaging in wars you know all those kinds of things. How central is the president. Would the present in no some of the shady things. They're gone on aliens or some kind of cybersecurity stuff against russia in china. All those kinds of things is the president really made aware and found if solheim nervous does that make you so presidents like leaders of any complex organizations Don't know everything that goes. They have to ask the right questions. This is machiavelli. Most important thing a leader has to do is ask the right questions. You don't have to know the answers. That's why you hire smart people but you have to ask the right questions. So if the president asks the. Us government those who are responsible for the aliens or responsible for the cyber warfare against russia. They will answer honestly they will have to but they will not volunteer that information in all cases so the best way a president can operate to have people around him or her who are not the traditional policymakers. This is where i think. Academic experts are important suggesting questions to ask to therefore tried to get the information and makes me nervous. Because i think human nature such that the the academics the experts. Everybody is almost afraid to ask the questions for which the answers might Be burdensome yes and cells right and you can get into lots of trouble not asking. It's the old elephant in the room. Correct correct this is exactly right and too often mediocre leaders and those who try to protect them. Try to shield themselves. They don't want to know certain things. So this is part of what happened with the use of torture by the united states which is a war crime during the war on terror President bush at times intentionally did not ask and people around him prevented him from asking or discouraged from asking questions he should ask to know about what was going on. And that's how we ended up where we did. You could say the same thing about reagan in iran-contra. I wonder what it takes to be the kind of leader that steps in and ask some difficult questions so aliens one. You'll spacecraft right Another one tortures and other one the cia. How much information is being collected about. Americans. i can see as a president being very uncomfortable asking that question. 'cause if the answer is a lot of information is being collected of americans then you have to be the guy whose lives with that information it for the rest of your life you have to walk around. You probably not going to reform. That system is very different. You have to you at the very picky about which things you reform. You don't have much time. It takes a lot of effort to restructure things but you nevertheless would have to be basically lying to To you know to to to yourself to all those around you about the unethical things depends of course what. You're the ethical system is. I wonder what it takes to ask those hard questions. I wonder if how few of us are can be great leaders like that and i wonder if our political system the electoral system such that makes it likely that such leaders will come to power. It's hard and you can't ask all the right questions and there is a legal hazard if you know things at certain times but i think you can back to your point on hiring you can hire people who will do that in their domains and then you have to trust that when they think it's something that's a question you need to ask. They'll pass that on to you. This is why it's not a good idea to have loyalists because loyalists will shield you from things. It's a good idea to have people of integrity You can rely on it. Who you think will ask those right questions. And then pass that down through their organization. What's inspiring to you. What's insightful. To about several the presidency's throughout the recent decades. Is there somebody that stands out to you. That's interesting in in sort of in your study of how the officers changed. Well bill clinton is one of the most fascinating figures. Like can i i apologize. Bill clinton just puts a smaller face every time somebody mentions at this point. I don't know why he gets charisma. I suppose well. And he's a he's a unique individual but he He fascinates me Because he's a figure of such enormous talent and enormous appetite and such self control And such extremes And and. I think it's not just that he tells us something about the presidency. Tells us something about our society You know american society. This is not new to our time is filled with norman enormous reservoirs of talent and creativity and those have a bright and dark side. And you see both with bill clinton in some ways. He's the mirror of the best and worst of our society. And maybe that's really what presidents are in the end right there mirrors of our world that we get the government. We deserve we get the leaders. We deserve. I wish we embrace that a little bit more you know. A lot of people criticize donald trump for a certain human qualities. He has a lotta people. Criticize bill clinton for certain human qualities. I wish we kind of embrace the chaos of that you know because he does. You're right in some sense represent. I mean he doesn't represent the greatest ideal of america but the the flawed aspect of human nature what he represents. And that's the beautiful thing about america. The diversity of this land with the mix of it the The corruption of of within capitalism the the beauty of capitalism the innovation. All those kinds of things that people that start from nothing in create everything the musk's of the world and the bill gates and so on but also the people bernie madoff and and and all as the metoo move showed the multitude of creeps that apparently permeate the the entirety of our system. So there's something There is some sense in which we put our president on a pedestal which actually creates a fake human being like we the the standard hold them to is forcing the fake politicians to come to power versus the authentic one which is in some sense the promise the donald trump is like. It's a it's a definitive statement of authentic like this. The opposite of the fake politician is whatever else you wanna say bottom is. There's the chaos that's unlike anything else that came before one thing in this particular may be preference in cork of mine. But i really admire. Maybe i'm romanticizing the past again. But i romanticized the president's that were students of history. The there were almost like king philosophers. Great you know that made speeches that Reverberated through decades. After right we we kind of using the words of those presidents whether written by them or not. We tell the story of america and i don't know does even obama has been exceptionally good. As far as i know. I apologize. If i'm correct on this but from everything i've seen. He was a very deep scholar of history. And i really admire. That is that through Through the history of the office of the presidency. Is that just your own preference or is that supposed to come with the job as opposed to student a history. I think i mean i'm obviously biased. Historian but i do think it comes with the job. Every president i've studied had a serious interest in history. Now how they pursued that interest. Very obama was more bookish. More academic so was george w bush in strange ways george h w bush was less. Oh but george. H w bush love to talk to people so he would talk to historians. Write ronald reagan Loved movies and movies were An insight into history for him. He likes to watch movies about another times. It's wasn't always the best of history but he was interested in what is a fundamental historical question. How as how has our society developed how has it grown and changed over time. And how has that change affected who we are today. That's the historical question. It's really interesting to me. I do a lot of work with business leaders and others to You reach a certain point in any career and you become a historian because you realize that the formula in the technical knowledge that you've gained got you to where you are but now you're decisions or about human nature decisions over about social change and they can't be answered. Technically they can only be answered by studying human beings and what is history. It studying the laboratory of human behavior. Do sort of play. Devil's advocate i. Kind of especially in the engineering scientific domains. I often see history holding us back. Sort of The way things were done in the past are not necessarily going to hold the key to what Will progress into the future of course with history in studying human nature does seem like humans just the same. She has like the same problems over and over. So in that sense it feels like history. Has all the lessons whether we're talking about wars whether we're talking about corruption whether we were talking about economics i think there's a difference between History and antiquarian ism so antiquarian ism with some people call. history Is the desire to go back to the past or stay stuck in the past so antiquarian. Ism is the desire to have the desk. That abraham lincoln sat. Wouldn't it be cool to sit at his desk. I'd love to have that desk if i had a few extra million dollars. Quiet it right so in a way. That's antiquarian capture and hold on hold onto the past the past as a talisman for antiquarians what history is is the study of change over time. That's the real definition of historical study in historical thinking and so what we're studying is change so a historian should never say we have to do things the way we've done them in the past the historian should say. We can't do them what we did them. In the past. We can't step in the same river twice. Every podcast of yours is different from the last one right you plan it out and then it goes in its own direction. Right yeah And what are we studying that in history. We're studying the patterns of change. And we're recognizing were part of a pattern. So what i would say to the historian. Who's trying to hold the engineer back. I'd say no. Don't tell that engineer not to do this. Tell him to understand how this fits into the relationship with other engineering products and other activities from the past that affect us today for example and product you produced is going to be used by human beings who have prejudices. It's going to go into an unequal society. Don't assume it's going to go into an equal society. Don't assume that when you create a social media site that people are going to use it fairly and put only truthful things on it We shouldn't be surprised. That's where human nature comes in but it's not trying to hold onto the past. It's trying to use the knowledge in the past better. Inform the changes. Today i had to ask you about george washington. It may be maybe some insights. It seems like he's such a fascinating figure in the context of the study of power. Because i kind of intuitively have come to internalize the belief that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and and sort like basically in thinking that we have to. We cannot trust anyone individual. I can't trust myself with power kanter. Nobody can trust anybody with power. We have to create institutions and structures that prevent us from ever being able to mass absolute power and yet. Here's a guy. George washington who seems to you can correct me if i'm wrong but he seems to give away relinquish power It feels like george washington. Did it like almost like the purest of ways which is Believes in this country but he just believes he's not the person to to To to carry forward i would he make of that. What what kind of human does it take to give away that power. Is there some hopeful message. We can carry through to the future to to to elect leaders like that or to or to Find friends to hang out with core like that like what is that. How do you explain that. So it's It's actually the most important thing about george washington. It's the right thing to to bring up What the historian. Gary wills wrote years ago. I'm going to quote him. Was that washington recognized that sometimes you get more power by giving it up than by trying to hold onto every last piece of it Gives a power at the end of the revolution. He's really carried through. The revolutionary war aims. He's commander of the revolutionary forces and he gives up his command and then of course he's president and after two terms he gives up his command. What is he doing. He's an ambitious person. But he's recognizing that the most important currency he has for power is his respected status as a disinterested statesman. That's really what has powers. And how does he further that power by showing that. He doesn't crave power so he was self. Were very self aware of this and very sophisticated and understanding understanding this. And and i think there are many other leaders who who recognize that You can look to In some ways The story of many of our presidents who even before there is a two-term limit in the constitution. Leave after two terms They do that because they recognize that. Their powers the power being a statesman Not being president. I still wonder what kind of man and takes kind of human being takes to do that because been studying vladimir putin quite a bit right. He's still. i believe he still has popular support. That's not fooling manipulated. Because i know a lot of people in russia and almost the entirety of my family in russia are big supporters of putin. Everybody talked to sort of this. Not just consoles from media right like the people that live in. Russia seems to seem to support him. It feels like this will be In george washington way now be the time that could Putin just yeltsin power and thereby in the eyes of russians become in in like the long arc of history be viewed as a great leader. You look at the economic growth of russia. You look at the rescue from the collapse of the soviet union. Russia finding its footing and relinquishing power. In a way that that perhaps if russia's exceeds forms a truly democratic state this will be how putin can become the great leaders in russian history at least in the in the in the context of the twenty first century. I think they're two reasons why this is really hard for putin and for others One is the trappings of power are very seductive. Is said before they're corrupting. This is a real problem right. If it's in a business context you don't wanna give up that private jet If it's in putin's context is billions of dollars every year. That he's able to take for himself or gift his friends. It's not that he'll be poor if he leaves. Just w rich and he has billions of dollars stored away but he won't be able to get the new billions. And so that's part of the trappings of power are big deal and then second putin's case in particular. He has to be worried about what happens next. Will he be tried. Will someone try to come and arrest him. Will someone try to come in assassinate him Washington recognized that leaving early limited the corruption and limited the enemies that you made and so there was a strategic choice Putin is at this point bryn in power too long and this comes back to your core insight. It's a cliche but it's true. Power corrupts no. One should have power for too long. This was one of the best insights. The founders of the united states had that power was to be held for a short time as a fiduciary responsibility. Not as something you owned right. This is the problem with monarchy with aristocracy. That you own power right. We don't own power we we're in holding it in trust he had there's There's some probably like specific psychological study of how many years it takes you to forget that you can't own power that's right. There's you know that could be a much more rigorous discussion about the length of terms that are appropriate. But really there's amount. Like stalin had power for thirty years like putin is pushing the those that many years already. There's a certain point where you forget the person you were before you took the power. That's right you forget to be humble in the face of this responsibility. Then there's no gombak. That's right as how dictators are born. That's how the evil like authoritarians become evil or does not use the word evil but counterproductive destructive to the to the idea that they initially probably came to office with. That's right. that's right one of the core. Historical insights is people. Should move jobs in the plasma. Sito's probably absolutely absolutely can become. Ceo somewhere else but don't stay ceo one place too long. It's a problem with startups right. The founder you can have a brilliant founder and that founder doesn't want to let go yeah right. It's the same issue at the same time i mean. This is where you'll mosque and a few others like Larry page and sergey brin. That stayed for quite long time and they actually were the beacon. They on their shoulders carried the dream. The company where everybody else doubted says but that seems to be the exception right versus the rule uneven surrogate for example has stepped back right. He plays less of a day to day role and is not running google on the way the interesting thing is he stepped back in a quite tragic way from what i've seen. Which is i think. Google's mission and mission of making the world's information accessible to everybody is one of the most beautiful missions of any company in history of the world. I think it's will. Google has done with a search engine and And other for similar like scanning a lot of books shortages in regrettable at similar to look media. But what he said was that it's not the same company anymore and i know maybe i'm reading too much into it because more may be practically saying just the size of the companies much larger the kind of leadership. That's great but at the same time they changed the model from you know Don't be evil to is becoming corporate ties and all those kinds of things and it's sad it Throws our cycles right. History is about cycles right there. They're cycles to life there cycles to organizations it's sad i need said steve jobs leaving apple by passing a said you know what the future of spacex and tesla looks like with audio. Mosque is quite sad. It's very possible that those companies become something very different. They become something much more. You know like corporate and stale so maybe maybe. Most progresses made their cycles may be new. York must comes along all those kinds of things but it does seem that the american system of government as close Built into it the cycling. Yes that makes it effective and it makes it last very long. It lasts a very long time right. It continues to excel and lead the world short short and the topic continues to know. It's i mean we we're into our third century and democracies on this scale rarely last that long so that that's that's a point of pride but it also means we need to be attentive to keep our house in order because it's not inevitable that this experiment continues now. It's important to meditate on that. Actually you mentioned that. Fdr franklin roosevelt is one of the great leaders in american history. Why is that. Franklin roosevelt had the power of empathy. No leader that. I've ever studied been around or spent anytime reading about was able to connect with people who were so different from himself as franklin roosevelt. He came from the most elite family. He never had to work a paycheck and his life when he was president. He was still collecting an allowance from his mom couldn't be more elite than franklin roosevelt. But he authentically connected. This was not propaganda. He was able to feel the pain and understand the lives of some of the most destitute americans and other parts of the country interesting so through the one of the hardest economic periods of american history. Who's able to feel the pain. He was able to the number of immigrants. I read oral histories from who have written themselves saul bellow was one example. The hollis who talk about how as immigrants to the us. Although it was russian jewish immigrant he said growing up in chicago politicians. We're all trying to steal from us. I didn't think any of them cared. Until i heard. Fdr and i knew he spoke to me And and i think part of it was. Fdr really tried to understand people. That's the first thing was humble enough to try to do that. But second he had a talent for that and it's hard to know exactly what it was but he had a talent for putting himself imagining himself in someone else's shoes what stands out to you as important. He said he was He went through the great depression. The new deal which some people criticize some people see. I mean it's it's funny to look at some of these policies and their long ripple effects but at the time is some of the most innovative policy. Yes in the in the history of america. you say they're they're ultimately not good for america but there are nevertheless hold within them very rich and important lessons but then you deal obviously world war two of that entire process. There's something that stands out to you as Particularly great moment that made fdr What fdr does from his first one hundred days in office forward and begins with his fireside chats. Is he helps americans to see that they're all in it together and that's by creating hope and creating a sense of common suffering and common mission. It's not offering simple solutions one of the lessons from. Fdr's if you want to bring people together don't offer a simple solution. Because as soon as i offer a simple solution. I have people for and against it. Don't do that explain the problem frame. The problem and then give people emission. So roosevelt's i Really address in march of nineteen thirty three. The banking system is collapsing. We can't imagine it right. Banks were closing. And you couldn't get your money out your life. Savings would be lost right. We can't imagine that happening in our world today. He comes on the radio. He takes five minutes to explain how banking works. Most people didn't understand how banking works. Right they don't actually hold your money in a fault. They landed out to someone else. And then he explains. Why if you go and take your money out of the bank and put it in your mattress. You're making it worse for yourself. He explains this And then he says. I don't he doesn't have a solution. But here's what i'm gonna do. I'm gonna send in government Officers to examine the banks and show you the books on the banks. And i want you to help me by calling in putting your money back in the banks. Were all going to do this together. No simple solution. No ideological statement but a sense of common mission. Let's go out and do this together when you read as i have so of these oral histories and memoirs for people who lived through that period. Many of them disagreed with some of his policies. Many of them thought he was too close to jews. And they didn't like the fact that a woman his cabinet and all that but they felt he cared and they felt they were part of some common mission and when they talk about their experience fighting in world war two whether in europe or asia. It was that that prepare them. They knew what it meant to be an american when they were over there So that to me is a model of leadership. And i think that's as possible. Today's it's ever been see think is possible i got i was going to ask this again. It may be a very shallow view but it feels like this country is more divided than it has been in recent history perhaps the social media and all those kinds of things merely revealing the division as opposed to creating the division but is it possible to have a leader that unites in the same way that yarded without well. We're living through pandemic. This is already. Yes so like i was gonna say without suffering. But they're suffering. Huge number of people have lost. their job. says it also have Is there one a hunger is is there possibly to have an fdr style leader who unites. Yes i think that is what president. Biden's trying i'm not saying i'm not saying he'll he'll succeed but i think that's what he's trying to do the way you do. This is you do not allow yourself to be captured by your opponents in congress or somewhere else. Fdr had a lot of opponents in congress. He had a lot of opponents in politics governors and others who didn't like him. Herbert hoover was still around and still accusing. Fdr of being you know a conspirists. All these other things so you don't allow yourself to be captured by the leaders of the other side. You go over their heads to the people and so today the way to do. This is to explain to people and empathize with the suffering and dislocation difficulties. They're dealing with and show that you're trying to help them. Not an easy solution. Not a simple statement. But here's some things we can all do together. That's why i think infrastructure makes a lot of sense. It's what fdr invested into fdr built hoover dam hoover dam. Turn the lights on for young lyndon johnson who grew up outside of austin fdr was the one who invested in road construction that was then continued by dwight eisenhower by a republican with the interstate highway system. Fdr invested through the wpa building thousands of schools in our country planting trees. That's the kind of work that can bring people together. You don't have to be a democrat or republican to say you know what we'd be a lot better off in my community if we had better infrastructure today i wanna be a part at a one. Maybe i can get a job doing that. Maybe my company can benefit from that. You'll bring people together in that way becomes a common mission. Even if we have different ideological positions is funny. I when i first heard joe biden many many years ago i think he ran for president against obama's in the i before i heard him speak. I really liked him but once i heard him speak stopped. I started liking less less and it speaks to something interesting where it's hard to put into words. What why you connect with people to empathy. The you mentioned in fdr you have like these bad pardon. The french motherfuckers like teddy roosevelt. That connect with you there. Something just powerful. And we joe by an can't i i wanna really like him and there's something not quite there where feels like. He doesn't quite know my pain. Yep even though he on paper is exactly you know he knows the pain of the people and there's something not connecting in. It's it's hard to explain. It's hard to put into words. And i it makes me not As engineer and scientist makes me not feel good about like presidencies because it makes me feel like it's more art and science. It isn't art. And i think it it's exactly an art for the reasons you laid out. Its aesthetic that feeling. It's about emotion all the things that we can't engineer it. We've tried for centuries to engineer emotion. We're never gonna don't try it. I am a parent of teenagers. Don't even try to explain emotion But you hit on the key point and the key challenge for by. He's got to find the right words. Yeah it's not finding the words to bullshit people. Yeah it's finding the words to help express. We've all felt empowered and felt good when someone uses words that put into words what we're feeling. Yeah that's what he needed. That's the job of a leader and there's certain words. I haven't heard many politicians use those words but there's certain words that like make you forget the that your foreign aggression against immigration make you forget whether you're four wars against wars. Mayhew you forget about like the bickering and somehow like inspire. You like elevate you to believe in the greatness that this country could be yes In that same way like the reason that moved to austin is funny to say like i just heard words from people from friends or they're excited by the possibility of the future here. I wasn't thinking like what's the right thing to do. What's the strategic. 'cause i wanna watch business. There's a lot of arguments for san francisco or maybe staying in boston in my case. But there's this excitement that there was beyond reason. Those emotional. yes and that's that's what it seems like. That's what builds. That's what great leaders do. But that's what bills countries. That's what bill gray's gray businesses. that's right at. It's what people say about austin for example. All the time talented people who come here like yourself. And here's the interesting thing. No one person creates that the words emerge and part of what fdr understood. You've got to find the words out there and use them. Yeah you don't have to be the creator of them right just as the great painter doesn't invent the painting or taking things from others as the smallest side. Is there something you could say about fdr. And hitler i cusi tried to think can can this person. Can this moment in history of been Circumvented prevented. Can hitler have been stopped. Can some of the atrocities for my own family that my grandparents lived through the the starvation in the soviet union. So the thing that people don't often talk about is the atrocities committed by stalin people. It feels like here's this great leader. Fdr that had the chance to To have an impact on the world that He already probably. We had a great positive impact but had a had a chance to stop. Maybe world war two or stop. Stop some of the evils when you look at what how we. Hitler was much of the thirties. Relative to militarily rows everything else. How many people could have done a lot. Stop them and fdr in particular. Didn't he tried to play Not pacify but basically do diplomacy and let loose germany do germany europe. Do europe folks in america is there. Is there something you would Would you hold his feet to the fire on this or is it a very difficult from the perspective. Fdr to have known what was coming. I think fdr had a sense of what was coming. Not quite the enormity of what hitler was doing and not quite the enormity of what the holocaust became. I also lost relatives in the holocaust and part of that was beyond the imagination of human beings. Yes but it's clear in his papers That is early. Nineteen thirty four people. He respected who he knew. Well told him that. Hitler was very dangerous. They'll also thought there was crazy that he was a lunatic hamilton. Fish armstrong who is a friend of of roosevelt's who was actually the council on foreign relations in new york had a meeting with hitler in nineteen. Thirty four i remember reading the account of this And he basically said definitely are. This man is going to cause a war. He's going to cause a lot of damage again. They didn't know quite the scale so they saw this coming. They saw this coming after your head to problems i he had an american public. That was deeply isolationist. The opposite of the problem in a sense that we were talking about before over militarized society. Now we were deeply isolationist society in the nineteen thirties the depression reinforce that fdr actually had to break the law in the late thirties to support the allies so It was very hard to move the country in that direction. Especially when he had this program at home The new deal that he didn't want to jeopardize by alienating and isolationist public that was the reality. We talked about political manipulation. He had to be conscious of that. It's an audience and second There were no allies willing to invest in this either the british whereas As committed to appeasement as you know you're very knowledgeable about this. The french were as well. There's very hard. The russian government. The soviet union was cooperating re militarize germany. So there weren't a lot of allies out there either I think if there's a criticism to be made of fdr it's that once we're in the war. He didn't do enough to stop in particular. The killing of jews and there are a number of historians myself included with written about this. And it's an endless debate. What should he have done. There's no doubt by nineteen forty four. The united states had air superiority and could a bomb the rail lines to auschwitz and other camps. That would have saved as many as a million jews. That's a lot of people who could have been saved. Why didn't fdr insist on that In part because he wanted to use every resource possible to win the war. He did not want to be accused of fighting the war jews. But i think it's also fair to say that he probably cared less about juice and east europeans. Then he did about others Those of his own dutch ancestry and from western europe. And so you know even their race comes in is also the explanation for the internment of japanese in the united states which is a horrible war crime committed by this heroic president hundred and twenty thousand japanese american citizens lost their freedom unnecessarily so he had his limitations and and i think he could could've done more during the war to save many more lives and i wish he had. And there's something to be said about empathy they spoke. Fdr had an empathy but us example. Now there's many people who described the atrocities happening in china and there's a bunch of places across the world where there's atrocities happening now and we care. We do not uniformly apply how much we care for the suffering of others. That's correct depending on the group that's correct and in some sense the role. The president is to To rise above that natural human inclination to protect to do the sources them to Tech the inner circle and empathize with the suffering of those. That are uh not like you. That's correct. I agree with the yeah. Speaking of war euro book on henry consider a great transition but it made sense in my head. Who was henry kissinger as a man in a figure so henry kissinger to me is one of the most fascinating figures in history because he comes to the united states as a german jewish immigrant at age. Fifteen speaking no english and within a few years He's a major figure influencing us foreign policy at the height of us power. But while he's doing that he he's never elected to office and he's constantly reviled by people including people who are anti semitic because he's jewish But at the same time also his exoticism makes him more attractive to people so someone like nelson rockefeller once kissinger around. He's one of kissinger's first patrons because he wants a really smart jew and kissinger is going to be that smart kissinger policy do there. Were these court jews. In the sixteenth seventeenth and eighteenth centuries in europe. Every king wanted. Judy manage his anchoring in a sense in the united states in the second half of the twenty century many presidents do manage their international affairs. And what does that really mean. It's not just about being jewish internationalism. it's the cosmopolitanism. That's one of the things. I was fascinated with kisses or someone like his injuries unthinkable as a powerful figure in the united states thirty or forty years earlier because the united states is run by watts. It's run by white elites who come from a certain background Kissinger represents a moment when american society opens up not to everyone but opens up to these cosmopolitan figures who have language skills historical knowledge networks. That can be used for the. Us government when after world war two. We have to rebuild europe when we have to negotiate with the soviet union where we need the kinds of knowledge. We didn't have before and harvard where he gets his education late. He started at city college actually but harvard where he gets. His education late is at the center of what's happening at all of these major universities at harvard yale stanford university of texas everywhere where they're growing in their international affairs bringing in the kinds of people who never would be at the university before training them and then enlisting them in cold war activities and so kissinger is a representative of that phenomenon. I became interested in him. Because i think he's a bellwether. He shows how power has changed in the united states so he enters his whole world of Politics what post world war two in the fifties. Yes so he actually in the forties even i. It's an extraordinary story eating. It comes to the united states in nineteen thirty eight just before kristallnacht. His family leaves the actually grew up right. Outside of nuremberg they leave a right before kristallnacht and fall thirty eight. Come to come to new york. He originally works in a brush. Factory cleaning brushes goes to a public school and in nineteen forty two just after pearl harbor. He joins the military and he's very quickly in the military first of all given citizenship. Which he didn't have the four He sent from first time. Outside of a kosher home had been aniko show his entire life center. South carolina to eat. Ham- frontal sam and then he is and this is extraordinary at at the age of twenty a barely speaking english He is sent back to germany with the us army in an elite counter intelligence role. Why because they need german speakers he came when he was fifteen so we actually understand society than eight people have that cultural knowledge and because he's jewish they can trust the he'll be anti-nazi and there's a whole group of these figures he's one of many and so he's in an elite circle. He's he's discriminated against new york when he goes to harvard after that he can only live in jewish only door but at the same time. He's in an elite policy role. In counterintelligence he forms a network there that stays with him the rest of his career. There's a gentleman named fritz kramer who becomes a sponsor of his In the emerging pentagon defense department world and as early as the early nineteen fifty sent to korea to comment on affairs in korea he becomes an intellectual recognized for his connections. But also someone who policymakers want to talk about his book nuclear weapons when it's written is given to president eisenhower to read because they say this is someone writing interesting things. You should read what he says. There's a certain aspect dome. That's kinda like forrest gump. He seems to continuously be the right person at the right time in the right place. That's right finding this. I don i. Don't you know you can only get lucky so many times. Because he continues to get lucky in terms of being at the right place in in history for many decades until today well. He has a knack for that. He i i spent a lot of time talking with him And what comes through very quickly is that he has an eye for power It's i think unhealthy. He's obsessed with power. Can you explain like an observer of power or or being Does he won't power himself. Yes both of those things. Both of and i think i explained this in the book. He doesn't agree with what i'm going to say now But i think i'm right. And i think she's very hard to analyze yourself right I think he develops an obsession with gaining power because he sees what happens when you have no power. He experiences the trauma. His father is very respected. Gymnasium layer in germany. Even though he's jewish he's actually the teacher of german classics to the german kids. Great and he's forced to flee and he becomes nothing he's father never really makes away for himself in united states. He becomes a postal delivery person which nothing wrong with that for someone who's a respected teacher in germany and game lyceum lehrer like professors. Their right to then be in this position his mother has to open a catering business when they come to new york. It's a it's a typical immigrant story. But he sees the trump he is grandparents were killed by the nazis So he sees the trauma and he realizes how perilous it is to without power. And you're saying he does not want to acknowledge the the effect of that. It's hard it's hard. I mean most of us would. We've had drama. It's believable that it's traumatic. 'cause you don't talk about it. I have a friend who interviews a combat veterans and. He says as soon as someone freely wants to tell me about their combat trauma. I suspect that they're not telling me the truth if it's traumatic. It's hard to talk about. Yeah sometimes i wonder how much for my own life. Everything that i've ever done is just the result of the complicated relationship with my father. I i tend to really difficult. I did a podcast conversation with. It's great it was. I regretted my. But i remember as i was doing it and for months after i regretted doing it. I just regretting it. And the fact that i was regretting it spoke to the to the fact that i'm running away from some truths that are back there somewhere and that that's perhaps we'll kissinger is as well but is there. I mean he's done. He's been a part of so many interesting moments of american history of world history from The cold war of vietnam war until today. What says ought to you a particularly important moment. in his career that made who he is. Well i think What made his career in many ways. was His experience in the nineteen fifties building a network A network of people across the world who were rising leaders from unique positions. He ran what he called the international seminar at harvard Which was actually a summer school class that no one had harvard cared about but he invited all of these rising intellectuals and thinkers from around the world and he built a network. There's that he used Forevermore so that's what really. I think boosts him The most important moments in terms of making his reputation making his career or two sets of activities. One is the opening to china And his ability to first of all take control of us policy without the authority to do that and direct us policy and then build a relationship with mounted dung and joe and lie. That was unthinkable. Just four five years earlier. Of course president. Nixon is a big part of that as well but kissinger's the mover and shaker on that and it's a lot of manipulation but it's also a vision. Now this is in the moment of merican history where there's a very powerful anti-communism correct so. Communism is much more even than today as the enemy. Correct and china in particular. They were one of our key enemies in Vietnam and in korea american forces were fighting chinese forces directly chinese forces. Come over the border. Thousands of americans die at the hand of chinese forces right so for the longtime united states had no relationship with communist china. He opens that relationship and at the same time he also creates a whole new dynamic in the middle east after the nineteen seventy-three war the so-called report war he steps in and becomes the leading negotiator between the israelis the egyptians and other major actors in the region and it makes the united states the most powerful actor in the middle east the soviet union far less powerful which is great for the united states in the seventies and eighties. It gets us though into the problems. We of course have Thereafter so that that's a very pragmatic approach that he's taken The realistic approach versus the idealistic approach. the term realpolitik. What is this thing. What is what is this approach to world politics so we all politique for kissinger is Really focusing on the power centers in the world and trying as best you can to manipulate those power centers to serve the interests of your own country. And so that's why he's a multilateralist. He's not a unilateralist. He believes the united states should put itself at the center of negotiations between other powerful countries. But that's also why he pays very little attention to countries that are less powerful and this is why. He's often criticized by human rights activists for him parts of africa and latin america. Which you and. I was considered important places or unimportant because they don't have power. They can't project their power. They don't produce a lot of economic wealth and so they matter less real politic views the world in a hierarchy of power how does ria politic realize itself in the world what what is what does that really mean. I called you Push for interest. Your own countries said there's power centers but it Is is a big bold. Move to negotiate to work with the communist to was your enemies that powerful. How what is us if you can further elaborate short philosophy behind it short so there. There are two key elements that then end up producing all kinds of tactics. But the two strategic elements of kissinger's way of thinking about realpolitik which are classical ways going back to two cities and the greeks are to say first of all you figure out who your allies are and you build webs of connection so that your allies help you to acquire what you want to acquire. This is why. According to herodotus the greek speed the persians the persians are bigger but the greeks the spartans the athenians on the table to work together and leverage their resources right. So it's about leveraging resources for kissinger this makes western europe crucially important. It makes japan crucially important. It makes israel and egypt crucially important right in building these webs you build your surrogate you build your brother states in other parts of the world. Who brill tight connections and you work together to control the resources that you want. The second element of the strategy is not to go to war with your adversary but to do all you can to limit the power of your adversary. Some of that is containment Preventing the soviet union from expanding. That was the key element of american cold war policy but sometimes it's actually negotiation. That's what detente was about for kiss. Injury spends a lot of time more time than any other american foreign policy negotiating with soviet leaders as well as chinese leaders. What does he want to do. He wants to limit the nuclear arms race. The united states is ahead. We don't want to get ahead of us. We negotiate To limit their abilities. Right we play to our strengths So it's a combination of keeping your adversary down and building tight webs within that context military forces used. But you're not using war for the sake of war You're using warfare to further your access to the resources economic political geographic that you want and build relationships and then the second thing to limit the power of those year against exactly so. Is there any a sort of insights into hall. He preferred to build relationships. Are we talking about like again. It's the one on one is through policy or is it through like phone conversations. Is there any cool kind of insights. The speak to kissinger is the ultimate. Kiss up. he is at some used to make fun of him. In fact even the film the filmmaker from stockton strangelove forgetting Right stanley kubrick called him kiss up at times right. He had a wonderful way of figuring out what it is. You wanted back to that discussion. We had before and trying to show how he could give you more of what you wanted as a leader was very personal listrik Very personal listrik and He spends a lot of time for example kissing up to leonid brezhnev kissing up to. Now he tells you're the greatest leader in the history of the twentieth century. People will look back on you as the great leader. Some of this sounds like bs but it serious. He's the egos of those around him. Second he is willing to get things done view he's effective. You want him around you because of his efficacy. so richard. nixon is always suspicious. That henry kissinger is getting more of the limelight. He hates the kissinger against the nobel peace prize. He doesn't but he needs him. 'cause kissinger's the guy who gets things done so he performs he builds a relationship in almost i say this in the book and almost a gangster way. He didn't like that. He criticized that part of the book. But again i still think the evidence is there You need something to be done boss. I'll do it. And don't forget that i'm doing this for you. And you get mutual dependency in alien way right and and and so. He bills this personal dependency through ego and through performance and then he's so skillful at making decisions for people who are more powerful because he's never elected officer always needs powerful people to let him do things. But he convinces you. It's your decision. When is really his to read his memos beautiful. He's actually very skilled at writing things in a way. That look looks like he's giving you options as president but in fact there's only one option there. Is he speaking to the gangster to the loyalty. Is he ever like the sense. I got from. Nixon is he. Would nixon would back stab you if he needed to One of the things. That i admire by gangsters is they don't backstab those in the inner circle like loyalty above all else i mean. At least that's the sense. I've gotten from the stories of the past at least is Where would you put kissinger on. That is e loyalty Else or is it our human zinc. The steve jobs thing is like as long as you're useful your useful but then once you long use the moment you are no longer useful as When you're knocked off the chess board. It's the ladder with him he. He's backstabbing quite a lot. And any self serving but he also makes himself so useful that even though nixon knows he's doing that nixon still needs him. Yeah by the way on that appoints having spoken with kissinger. What's your relationship like with him. As somebody who is in objective way writing history. It was very difficult because He's very good at manipulating people. And we had about twelve or thirteen interviews usually informal over lunch and And this was many years ago. This is probably no more than ten years ago Did you find yourself being like sweet. Talked to where you like. Go back home later and look in the mirror. Segue what just happened. He he can be enormously charming and enormously obnoxious at the same time. So i would have these very mixed emotions because he gives no ground he. He's unwilling to. I think this is a weakness. He's unwilling to admit mistake. Others made mistakes. But he doesn't and he certainly won't take on any of the big criticisms that are that are pushed. I understand why i mean. You've worked as hard for what he has. He has your defensive about it but he is very defensive. Very fragile about he does not like criticisms at all he he used to. He hasn't done this in a while but he used to. Call me up and yell at me on the phone quite literally when i recruit quoted in the new york times or somewhere saying something that sounded critical of him. So for instance there was one instance a number of years ago where a reporter came across documents where kissinger said negative things about jews in russia. Typical things that a german jew would say about east european jews and the new york times asked me. Is this accurate. And i said the documents are accurate. I've seen them. they're accurate. He was so angry about that. So there's the fragility but there's also the enormous charm and enormous intelligence The real challenge with him. Though is he's very good at making his case he'll convince you and as a scholar as an as an observer. You don't wanna hear lawyers case. You wanna actually interrogate the evidence and get to the truth. And so that was a real challenge with so speaking of his approach of real politic if we just zuma and look at human history human civilization what do you think works. Best in In the way we progress forward a realistic approach do whatever it takes. Control the centers of power to play a game for the for the greater interests of the good guys quote unquote or lead by sort of idealism which is I truly act in the were in the best version of the ideas you represent as opposed to kind of Present one view and then do whatever it takes a behind the scenes. Obviously you need some of both. But i lean more to the idealistic side and more so actually believe it or not. The as as i get into my forties historical work. Why do i say that. Because i think and this is one of my criticisms of kissinger royal so a lot of respect for the real politics become self defeating because you're constantly running to keep power but you forget why and you often then use power. And i think kissenger falls into this in in some of his worst moments not all moments where the power is actually being used undermined the things care about of the example of being a parent. And you're doing all these things to take your kit violin all these things and you realize you're actually killing you kid and making your kid very unhappy and the whole reason you were doing. It was to improve the person's life. And so you have to remember why it is what what hans morgenthau calls is your purpose. Your purpose has to drive you now. Your purpose doesn't have to be airy-fairy idealism. So i i believe deeply in democracies ideal. I don't think it's gonna ever look like athenian democracy but that should drive our policy but we still have to be realistic recognize. We're not going to build that democracy in afghanistan. Tomorrow i mean does it ultimately. Just boil down again to the corrupting nature. Power that Nobody can hold power for very long before you start acting in in the interests of power as opposed to the interest of your ideals. That's impossible to be like somebody like kissinger who is essentially in power for many many decades and and still remember. What are the initial ideals that you strove to To achieve yes. I think that's exactly right. There's a a moment in the book i quote about him comes from one of our interviews. I asked him what were the guiding ideals for your policies and he said I can't. I'm not prepared to share that and i don't think it's because he doesn't know what he thinks he was trying to do. He realizes his power departed quite a lot from you. You would sound a fee. Made them explicit. It would sound hypocritical. correct while on on that. Let me ask about war. America often presents itself said some people just the leaders when they look in the mirror. As i get a sense that we think of ourselves as the good guys in especially this begins sometimes to look hypocritical. When you're waging war is what's a good Is there a good way to know when you've lost all sense of what is to be good Another way to ask that. Is there in military policy in conducting. War is a good way to know what is a just war and What is a war crime in some circles. Kissinger's accused of contributing. Neil being a war criminal. Yes i am. I argue in. The book is not a war criminal. But that doesn't mean that He didn't miss us. Military power I think A just war war war is michael walzer and others right about adjust. War is a war. Where both the purposes just and you are using the means to get to that purpose that Killing few people as necessary. That doesn't mean that will be killing but as few as necessary proportionality right. Your your means should be proportional to your ends and That's often lost sight of because the drive to get to the end. Often self justifies means. Go well beyond that. And so that's that's that's how we get into torture in the war on terror. Is there some kind of lesson for the future. Yes can take away from the yes. I'd i think the first set of lessons that i've shared historian with military decision makers is i will always remember why you're there. What your purposes and always ask yourself if the means you're using are actually proportional. Ask that question just because you have. These means that you can use just because you have. These tools doesn't mean they're the right tools to use. And here's the question that follows from that and it's a. It's a hard question to ask because the answers one. We often don't like to. Here are the things i'm doing in war actually doing more harm or more good. To the reason i went into war. We came to a point in the war on terror. Where what we were doing was actually creating more terrorists. And that's when you have to stop while some of those data some of it. There's a leap of faith. So for parenting perspective. Let me let me speak as a person with no kids in single guy asked me be the expert the room on parenting no It does seem that it's a very difficult thing to do to Even though you know that your kid was making a mistake to let them make a mistake give them the freedom. To make them stake your. I don't know what to do. I mean that's a very kind of light hearted way of phrasing the following. Which is when you look at. Some of the places in the world like stan which is not doing well right to move out knowing that there's going to be a lot of suffering economic suffering injustices Terrorist organizations growing did committing crimes on his own people in potentially committing crimes against allies violence against allies violence against the united states. How do you know what to do in that case well again. It's an art not a science. Which is what makes it hard for you know. An engineer to to think about this is what makes it endlessly fascinating for me. I think the real intellectual work is at the level of the art right. And i think probably engineering at its highest level becomes an art as well right So policy-making you never you never know but i will say this. I'll say you have to ask yourself and look in the mirror and say is all the effort i'm putting in actually making this better in afghanistan. You look at the twenty years and two plus trillion dollars that the us has put in and the fact that as you said correctly. It's not doing well right now. After twenty years of that investment. You know i might like a company that i invest in but after years of my throwing money in that company. It's time to get out some sense getting out now is That's kind of obvious. Morrison in how figure out in the future ought to get out earlier than i mean at. This point was too long. And it's obvious the data the the investment Nothing is working. You know as the very little data points to us staying. There are more interested in a you know being let me take it back to a safer place again being relationship and getting out of their relationship while things are still good. But you have a sense that it's not going to end up in a good place. That's that's the difficult thing you have to ask yourself whether it's a relationship or you're talking about policy making in afghanistan are the things i'm doing showing me evidence real evidence that they're making things better or making things worse. That's a hard question honest. You have to be very honest and in policy-making context we have to actually do the same thing we do in a relationship context. What are we doing relationship context. We ask other friends who are observing right. we ask for other observers. This is actually just scientific method. Element actually right that. We can't heisenberg principle. I can't see it because i'm too close to it. I'm changing it. The by looking at it right. I need others to tell me in policy-making context this is why you need to hear from other people not just the generals because here's the thing about the generals. There are patriotic hardworking people. But they're too close. They're not lying there too close. They always think they can do better. How do you think about the cold war. Now from the beginning to end and maybe also with an eye towards the current potential cyber conflict cyber war with china with russia if we look set of other kind of cold war's potentially emerging in the twenty first century. When you look back at the cold war of the twentieth century how do you see it. And what lessons do we draw from it. It's a wonderful question because i teach this to undergraduates. And it's really interesting to see how undergraduates now. Almost all of whom were born after nine. Eleven yeah So the cold war is ancient history to them in fact the cold war to them is as far removed as the nineteen fifties. Were to me. I mean that's you know that's it's it's unbelievable. It's almost like world war two for my generation and cold war and cold war for them so far removed. The collapse of the soviet union doesn't mean anything to them So how do you. How do you describe the cold war to them. How do you describe the soviet union to the first of all. I have to explain to them. Why people were so fearful of communism anticommunism very hard for them to understand The fact that in the nineteen fifties americans believed that communists were going infiltrate our society and many other societies that after fidel castro comes to power in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine that we're going to see communist regimes. All across latin america that fear of communism married to nuclear power and then even the fear that maybe economically. They would outpace us. Because they would create this sort of army of crews jovian builders of things. And you know what is jeff said right. Say we're we're gonna catch britain and five years and then the united states after that right so to to explain that sense of fear to them that they don't have of those others That's really important. The cold war was fundamentally About the united states defending a capitalist world order against a serious challenger from communism and alternative way of organizing everything private property economic activity. Enterprise life everything organized in a totally different way. It was a struggle between two systems. Your senses in to interrupt your senses. The the conflict of the cold war was between two ideologies and not just two big countries with nuclear weapons. I think it was about two different ways of life or two different Promoted ways of life the soviet union never actually lived communism. But i think my reading of stalin is he really tried to go there and khrushchev. Really gorbachev thought he was going to reform the soviet union. So you'd go back to a kind of bihar and lenin communism right so i do think that matter. I do think that mattered. Enormous for the united states. Point of view The view was that communism and fascism with these totalitarian threats to liberal democracy and capitalism which went hand in hand so. I do think that's what the struggle was about. An in a certain way liberal capitalism proved to be the more enduring system in the united states played a key role in that that. That's the reality of the cold war. But i think it means different things now to my students and others They focus very much On the expansion of american power and the challenges of managing. They're looking at it from the perspective of not will we survive. But did we waste our resources on some elements but it doesn't mean they're against did but there is a question of the resources that went into the cold war and the opportunity costs. And you see this when you look at those sort of healthcare systems that other countries build and you compare them to the united states race issues also so they they look at the cost which i think often happens after a project is done. You look back at that second. I think They're also more inclined to see a the world is less bipolar to see The role of china is more complicated post colonial our anti colonial movements Independent states in africa latin america. That gets more attention. So one of the criticisms now is because you forget the lessons of twentieth century history and the atrocities committed under communism that you may be a little bit more willing to Accept some of those ideologies into are the united states society at this kind of That forgetting that capitalist forces are part of the reason why we have what we have today. There's a fear amongst some now that we would have would allow basically communism to take hold in america. I mean jordan other. Speak to this kind of idea. Identity not be so fearful of it. I think it's on the surface. It's not deep within. I do see. The world is very complicated. As a as they're needing to be a role of having support for each other uncertain political levels economic levels and then also supporting entrepreneurs. It's like That the kind of enforcing of outcomes that is fundamental to the communist. Them is not something. We're actually close to in some of that is just fearmongering for for For likes on twitter. Kind of thing. That if i come in on that because i agree with you one hundred percent i spent a lot of time writing and looking at this and talking to people about this there's no communism in the united states. Never has been and there certainly isn't now and i'll i'll say this both from an academic point of view but also from spending a lotta time observing young people united states even those on the farthest left to take whoever you think is the farthest they don't even understand what communism is. They're not communist in any sense. The americans are raised vernacular environment of private property ownership. And as you know better than anyone if you believe in private property you don't believe in communism so the what what the sort of bernie sanders kind of socialist elements. That's very different right. And i would say some of that. Not all of that. Some of that does hearken back to actually what one in the cold war there were many social democratic elements of what the united states did that led to our winning the cold war. For example the new deal was invested government money in propping up business in propping up labor unions and during the cold war. We spent more money than we could ever spent in our history on infrastructure on schools on providing social support social security our national pension system. Being one of them. So you could argue. Actually that social democracy is very compatible with capitalism and. I think that's the debate. We're having today. How much social democracy. I would also say that the capitalism we've experienced the last twenty years is different from the capitalism of the cold war during the cold war. There was the presumption in the united states that you had to pay taxes to support our cold war activities that it was okay to make money the more money you made the more taxes you had to pay We had the highest marginal tax rates in our history during the cold war now the aversion to taxes and of course no one ever likes paying taxes but the notion that we can do things on deficit spending. That's a post cold-war phenomenon. That's not a cold war phenomenon so so much of the capitalism that we're talking about today is not the capitalism of the cold war and maybe again we can learn that and see that see how we can reform capitalism today and and get rid of this false worry about communism in you know you make me actually realize something important. What we have to remember is the words we use on the surface about different policies. We think is right and wrong is actually different than the core thing that like is in your blood. The core ideas. That are there of. I do see the united states as this. There's this fire that burns of individual freedoms of Of of property rights that these these basic foundational ideas that everybody just kind of takes for granted. And i think if you hold onto them if you're like raised in them talking about ideas of social security of universal basic income of of of reallocation resources is a fundamentally different kind of discussion that you had in soviet union i think the value of the individual is so core to the american system that you basically cannot possibly do the kind of atrocities that you saw in In the soviet union but of course you never know the slippery slope has a way of changing Jj things but i do believe the things you're born with is just so courted. This country is is part of the. I don't know what your thoughts are where we are in texas. I'm not necessarily don't necessarily want to have a gun control type of conversation but the reason i really liked guns. It doesn't make any sense but philosophically it's it's such a declaration of individual rights that so different than the the conversations are here with my russian family. My russian friends that gun. It is very possible that having guns is bad for society in the sense that like you'll lead to more violence but there's something about this discussion That stuff like that proclaims the value of my freedom as an individual. I'm not being in it but there's very few debates where whenever people are saying she would you have what level gun control those kinds of things. What i hear is it's a fight for how much freedom even if it's stupid freedom should individual have. I think that's i think that's that's what's are articulated quite often. I think combining your two points which are great points. I think there is something about american individualism which is deeply ingrained in our culture in our society and it means that the kinds of bad things that happen are different. Usually not as bad. But but our individualism often covers up for Vigilante activity and individual violence toward people that you wouldn't have in a more collective culture so in the soviet union was a much worse scale and it was done by a government organizations in the united states. It's you know. Individuals the history of lynching in our country for example. Sometimes it's individual police officers. Sometimes it's others again. The vast majority of police officers are good. People don't do harm to people but there are these examples and they are able to fester in our society because of our individualism now gun ownership is about personal freedom. I think for a lot of people. And there's no doubt that in our history included in the second amendment which can be interpreted in different ways is the presumption that people should have the right to defend themselves. which is what. I think you're getting at him. That you should not be completely dependent for your defense on an entity. That might not be there for you. Should be able to defend yourself and gun symbolize that. I think that's a fair point. But i think it's also fair point to say that as with everything Defining what self defense is really important so to self defense me. I can have a bazooka. Does it mean. I can have weapons that are designed for military battlefield to mass. Kill people that seems to me to be very different from saying i should have a handgun or some small arm to defend myself That distinction alone make a huge difference. Most of the Mass shootings at least which are proportion smaller. Proportion of the larger gun deaths in the united states. Which are larger than any other society but at least mass shootings are usually perpetrated by people who have not self defense weapons but mass killing mass killing weapons. And i think. I think there's an important distinction there. The constitution talks about a right to bear arms for well-regulated militia. When the framers talked about arms that did not mean the ability to kill as many people as you want to kill. It meant the ability to defend yourself. So let's have that conversation. I think it would be useful as a society. Stop talking about. Guns are no guns. What is it that we as citizens need to feel. We can defend ourselves. Yes yeah mean. Guns have complicated issue that he can cause harm to others. Identities of may be deals asian of drugs. I tend to believe that we should have the freedom to do stupid things not harming lots of other people yes and then guns of course have the property that they can be used is not just know a bazooka. I would argue pretty stupid to own for your self defense but it has the very negative side effect of being potential. Used to harm other and you have to. You have to consider that kind of stuff by the way as a side note to the listeners. there's been a bunch of people saying that Lexus way to libertarian. For my taste. No i actually am just struggling with ideas and sometimes put on different hats in these conversations. I think through different ideas. Whether they're left right libertarian. That's true for gun control. That's true for immigration is true for all of that i think we should. We should have discussions in the space of ideas versus in the space of bins. We put each other in labels put a percent and also change our minds all the time. Try out safe say stupid stuff with the best of intention trying our best to think through it and then after saying it think about it for a few days and then change your mind and grown this way. Let me ask a ridiculous question. You zoom out when human civilization has destroyed itself and alien Graduate students are studying it. like three four five centuries from now would you think will remember about this period period in history the twentieth century the twenty first th century this this time we had a couple wars where charismatic black president in the united states. Where a couple pandemics. What do you think will actually stand the standout in history. No doubt the Rapid technological innovation of the last twenty thirty years how we created a whole virtual universe. We didn't have before and of course that's going to go in directions. You and i can't imagine fifty years from now but this will be seen as that origin moment that when we went from playing below the rim playing above the right to be all in person to having a whole virtual world and in a strange way the pandemic was a provocation to move even further in that direction. And we're never going back right. We're going to restore some of the things we were doing before the pandemic but whenever going to go back to that world we were in before where every meeting you had to fly to that place to be in the room with the people So this whole virtual world in the virtual personas and avatars and all of that I think that's that's going to be a big part of how people remember. Also this sort of biotechnology element of it which which vaccines are part of It's amazing how quickly this is the great triumph. How quickly we've produced and distributed these vaccines and of course their problems with who's taking them but but the reality is i mean. This is light speed compared to what it would have been like that just a nine hundred eighteen in one thousand nine hundred eighty one of the sorry from adopting but one of the disappointing things about this particular time is because vaccines like a lot of things. Got a politicized used as little pawns in the game of politics that we don't get the chance to step back fully at least And celebrate the brilliance of the human species. Right that the yes. There are scientists who used their authority improperly that have an ego that when they're within institutions are dishonest with the public. Because they don't trust the intelligence of the public they are not authentic and transparent. All the sees you could say about humans in positions of power. And you're okay. That doesn't mean science as an incredible and The vaccines i mean. I don't. I don't often talk about it. Because it's so political. And i it. It's heartbreaking to it's heartbreaking. How all the good stuff is getting politicized. Yeah that's right and it shouldn't be. It'll seem less political Long arc of history. It'll it'll it'll. It'll be seen as an outstanding accomplishment and as a step toward whatever maybe they're doing vaccines something that replaces the vaccine in ten seconds at that point right it'll be seen as a step that those will be the some of the positives i think one of the negatives they will point to will be Our inability at least at this moment to manage our environment better howard destroying our living space and not doing enough even though we have the capability to do more to preserve or at least allow a sustainable living space. I'm confident because i'm an optimist that we will get through this and we will be better sustaining our environment in future decades and so in terms of environmental policy. They'll see this moment as a dark age or the beginnings of a better age may be as a renaissance or maybe As a as the last time most people lived on earth when a couple of centuries afterwards we're all disobey throughout the solar system and then the galaxy very possible if the local resident hometown resident mr elam because to do with it i do. i do. tend to think you're absolutely right with all this political bickering. We shouldn't forget that what this age will be. Remembered buys the is incredible levels of innovation. I do. I do think the biotech stuff worries me. More than anything because it feels like. There's a lot of weapons that could be yet to be developed in that space but Identified believe that. i'm excited about by two avenues. One is artificial intelligence. the kind of The kind of systems will create in this digital space that you mentioned were moving to and the other of course. This could be the product of the cold war. But i'm super excited by space exploration. Sure is the magic tour to human beings and we're getting back to it. I mean we were enthralled with it in the fifties and sixties when it was a cold war competition and then after the seventies we gave up on it and thanks to elon. Musk and others. Were coming back to this issue and think there's so much to be gained from. The power of exploration is their books or movies in your life long ago recently. That had big impact on you. Yes see something you yes You know my favorite novel. I always tell people this. I love reading novels. I'm a historian And i think the historian and the novelist directly and the technology innovator all actually one in the same. We're all thirty dollars. Storytellers and matt boyle in the imagination space and i'm trying to imagine the world of the past to inform us in the present for the future so one of my favorite novels that i read. Actually when i was in graduate school is a thomas mons books and it's the story of a family in luebeck in northern germany living through the nineteenth century and the rise and fall of families cycles of many things. We've talked about it in the last couple of hours cycles of life challenges of Adjusting to the world around you and it's just a very moving reflection on the limits of human agency. And how are we. We all have to understand the circumstances wherein and adjust to them and there's triumphant tragedy in that it's a wonderful novel. It used to be a kind of canonical work. It's sort of fallen out now. It's a big big novel but I i'm very moved by that. I'm very moved by tolstoy's war and peace. I assigned that every year. My students at the big big book. but what. Tolstoy challenges is he challenges. The notion that a napoleon can rule the world. And we're all the polian right. We're all sort of thinking that we're going to do that. And he reminds us. How much contingency circumstance that doesn't mean. We don't have some control. You've spoke to me a little bit of russian. Where does that come from. So your your appreciation of tolstoy but also your abilities be bitter. Russian was resentment so I speak in addition english. I speak reasonably well depending on. How much vodka or russian. French and german I learned those For research purposes. I learned french. Actually when i was in high school russian when i was in college german when i was in graduate school now i do have family and my mother's side. That's a russian jewish extraction But they were yiddish speakers by the time you know. I met them by the time they have gone through germany and the united states. We're really got through poland income. The nicest they were speaker. So there's no one really in my family who speak russian. But i do feel a connection there at least a long range Personal connection is there something to be said about the language and your ability to imagine history sort of When you study these different countries your ability to imagine what it was like to be apart of that culture part of that time yes. Language is crucial to understanding culture and Even if you learn the languages. I have learning russian and german french. It's still not the same as also being a native speaker either as you know But i think language tells you a lot about mannerism about assumptions. The very fact. That english doesn't have a formal you but russian has a formerly rightfully versus. The german has a formal use e versus right. So the fact. That english doesn't have a formal. You tells you something about americans right and it's just one example the fact that you know that germans have such a wider vocabulary for certain scientific concepts Then we have an english tells you something about the culture. Language is an artifact of the culture. The culture makes the language is fascinating to for. I mean we just exactly use you said the which is there's a fascinating transition. So i guess things we just have you. There's a there's a fascinating transition that persist to this day is is of a formalism politeness where it's an initial kind of dance of interaction that's Different methods of signalling respect. I guess we don't then. Language provides a in the united in the english language. There's fewer tools to show the kind of respect which has potential positive or negative effects on it flattens. Society were like a teenager. Could talk to an older person and show like Like at a difference that i mean but at the same time and he creates a certain kind of dynamic a certain kind of society. And it's funny to think of just like those few words can have any like a ripple effect through the whole culture and we don't have a history in the united states of aristocracy. Yeah the these elements of language reflect aristocracy. The the the surf would never refer to the master even if the masters younger as it's always very again it's always right i mean and so it's Yeah so it tells you something about the history. That's why to your question which was a great question. It's so crucial to try to penetrate the language. I'll also say something else. And this is a problem for many americans who haven't learned a foreign language. We're very bad teaching far languages. If you've never taught yourself a foreign language you have closed yourself off to certain kinds of empathy because you have basically train your brain to only look at the world one way the very active learning another language. I think tells your brain that words and concepts don't translate one to one. This is the first thing you realize right. We can say you know. These two words mean the same thing from two languages. They never mean exactly the same thing. We're dose vidana is really not good bye right and there's something you know right. Now there's people talking about idea of lived experience one of the ways to force yourself into this idea of lives experiences by learning another language to understand that you can perceive the world in a totally different way even even though you pursue and same thing and of course the way i learn russian for those looking for to'real lessons for me is just as you said he start by drinking lots of gas. Of course it's very difficult to do. Otherwise is there advice you have for young people a career life In making their way in the world yes the two things. I believe that. I say to a lot of talented young people. I i. I don't think you can predict what is going to be. Well renumerated twenty years from now. Don't pick a profession because you think even though your parents might tell you or do this and you'll make money is seen in the graduate. Where guy tells. Dustin hoffman plastics money. Plastic sir we don't have so many of my students now have parents who are telling them Bright students you know. Go to the business school. That's that's what's going on. Set you up to make money if you're passionate business. Yes but don't begin by thinking you know what's going to be hot twenty years from now you don't know what's going to be from twenty years ago twenty years from now. What should you do this advice. Number one find what you're passionate about because if you're passionate about you will do good work in that area if you're talented and usually passionate talent overlap annual find a way to get people to pay for it. I mean you do it really well. People will want to pay. That's where capitalism works people will find it valuable right whether it's violin playing right or engineering or poetry you will. You might not become a billionaire that involves other things but you'll find a way to get people to pay for it and then the second thing is It's really important at the very beginning of your career even before your in your job right to start building your networks but networks are not just people. You're on facebook with twitter with. I mean that that's fine. It's actually forming relationships and some of that can be mediated in the digital world. But i mean real relationships. I liked podcasts. Because i think they actually opened up that space. I know a lot of people can listen to a podcast and find someone else. Who's listened to that podcast and have a conversation about a topic. It opens up that space those relationships not with people who you think will be powerful but people you think are interesting because they'll do interesting things and every successful person i know at some level had a key moment where they got where they are because of someone they knew for some other reason who had that connection so use and spread your networks and make them as diverse as possible find. People who are of different party have different interests but are interesting to you as brilliant vice as some of the on the on the passion side. I do find that As somebody who has a lot of passions find the second part of that committing yes. That's which sucks because life is finite and when you commit is a while. I'm never going to be good like when you choose one of the two passions one of the two things you're interested you're basically saying on. I'm letting go. I'm saying the donya too. That's true that's true. Actually what does within your means. That's exactly right yeah. I think that's exactly right. I think that's i think you do have to make choices. You'd have to set priorities. I often laugh at students who tell me. They wanted to have like three majors. Three majors who have no major right mean so. I do think you have to make choices. I also think it's important that whatever you do even if it's a small thing you always do the best you can. You always do. Excellent work by kids are tired of hearing me. Say this at home. But i believe everything you do should be about excellence. The best you can do. I'm going to wash the dishes. I'm gonna be the best person washing the dishes right. If i'm going to write a book review on with the best possible work with you. I can't why because you develop a culture among about yourself which is about excellence. Yeah i was telling off line about all the kind of stuff. Google fiber in cable installation. All this stuff. I've been always a believer washing dishes. Be people don't often believe me when i say this. I don't care what i do i am. I am with david foster wallace. I'm unbearable. there's so much joy for me. I think for everyone but okay. Let me speak for me to be discovered in getting really good at anything. In fact getting good at stuff that most people believe is boring or menial labor or You know impossible to be interesting. That's even more joyful to find the joy within that the excellent. It's the euro gyms a sushi making same frigging sushi over and over and becoming a master that that's that can be truly joyful sense of pride and on the pragmatic level. You never know when someone will spot that and Intelligent people who perform at the level of high excellence. Look for others who yes and it radiate. Some kind of signal. It's weird. It wears what you're it's weird what you're tracked yourself when you just focus on mastery and pursuing. Excellence in something like this is a cool thing. the body. That's the joy of really truly experienced. I didn't have to work just coop. People kinda i find myself in groups of coup people like really people were excited about life with passion while life. There's a fire in their eyes. That's you know at the end of the j just makes life fun you know some and then also money-wise at least in this society were fortunate to where if you do that kind of thing. Money will find a way. I have the great. I i say this that don't care about money. I have to think about what that means because some people criticised ideas. That must be nice to say that Because i have for much. Many periods of my life had very little money. But i think we're live in a society where not caring about money but just focusing on your passions. If you're truly pursuing excellence. Whatever that is money will find you. That's i guess. The ideal of the capitalist system and i think the the entrepreneurs i've studied had the chance to get to know and i'm sure you'd agree with this. They they do what they do because they're passionate about the product they're not just in it to make money in fact that's when they get into trouble. We had just trying to make money exactly. You said your grandmother. Emily had a big impact on your life. She lived two hundred two. What are some lessons she by emily. Who was the child of immigrants from from russia and poland who never went to college Proud is day. I think was when when i went to college She she treated everyone with respect and tried to get to know. Everyone knew every bus driver in the town. She'd remember birthdays. And one of the things she taught me is no matter how high you fly the lowest person close to the ground matters to you and you treat them the same way you treat the billionaire at the top of the podium and she. She did that. She didn't just say that some people say end of do it she. She really did that. And i always remember that it comes up in my mind at least once a week because raw busy doing a lot of things and you either see or you even feeling yourself the desire to just for for the reasons of speed to be short or not polite with someone who can't do anything to harm right now and i remember her saying to me. No you you you. Don't you treat everyone with respect. You treat the person you're on the phone with the customer service. You treat that person. If you're talking to jeff bezos so you're talking to elon. Musk right And and i think making that a culture of who you are so important and people notice that that's the other thing and they noticed when it's authentic everyone's nice to the person at the bottom of the totem pole when you want to get ahead in the line for your driver's license but are you nice to them when you don't need that they noticed that and even when nobody's watching that has a weird effect on you that's going to To have a ripple effect and people know that's the cool thing about the internet. I i've come to believe that people see authenticity. They see when you're full of shit when you're not. That's the other thing that. Emily taught me and i think we've all had relatives of taught us this right. You could be very uneducated. She was very educated. She you know she had a high school diploma. But i think she was working in. You know in a delicatessen in new york while she was in high school or was a gimbal or somebody so she didn't take high school very seriously. he wasn't very well educated. She was very smart. And we can fall into a world. Where i'm a big believer in higher education and getting a phd and things of that sort but where we think. Those are the only smart people sometimes. Those are the people because of their competitions because their egos are the ones who are least educated in the way of the world. Yeah least curious and not all ultimately wisdom comes from curiosity and sometimes getting a phd can get away. Get in the way of curiosity. As opposed to empower curiosity. Lemme ask From a historical perspective you studied some of human history so maybe of an insight about what's the meaning of life. Why do you ever ask when you look at history. Y yeah. I do all the time. And i don't i don't have i don't have an answer. It's the mystery that we can't Answer i i do think What it means is what we make of it. There's universal every every period i've studied next is a little bit of a lotta periods. In a lot of a few periods every period people struggle with this. And there's no they don't come to wiser people. Don't come to a firm answer except it's what you make of it meaning is what you make of it so think about but what you want to care about and make that the meaning in your life I wonder how that changes throughout human history whether there's a constant like that's often think especially when you study a evolutionary biology and you just see our origins from life as it evolves. It's like it makes you wonder it. It feels like there's a thread that connects all of it. That were headed somewhere. We're trying to actualize some greater purpose. You know like there. There seems to be a direction to this thing. And we're all kinda of stumbling in the dark trying to figure it out but it feels like we eventually will find an answer. I hope so. Yeah maybe i mean. I do think we all We all want our families to do better we are. We are familiar and family doesn't just mean biological family. You can have all kinds of ways you define family and community. And i think i think we are moving slowly and in a very messy way toward a larger world community to include all of biological life and eventually Artificial life as well and so that this to To expand the lesson to the advice that your grandmother taught you is. I think we should treat robots. He systems Good as well. Even if they're currently not very intelligent because one day they might be right. I think that's exactly right. And we should think through exactly exactly as a humanist how i would approach that issue we need to think through the kinds of behavior patterns we want to establish with these new forms of life artificial life For ourselves also to your point we behave the right way so we don't misuse this. We started talking. About abraham lincoln ended talking about robots. I think this is the perfect conversation. Jeremy this was a huge honor. I love often a love you diaz then And i love the fact that you would agree to waste all your valuable time with me today. Thank you so much talking to i. I can't imagine a better way to spend a friday afternoon. This was so much fun. And i'm such a fan of your podcast and delighted to be a part of it. Thank you thanks for listening to this conversation with jeremy surrey and thank you to element monk pack campo forcing matic and a sleep. Check them out in a description to support the spot guest and now they leave you some words from franklin d roosevelt. Fdr democracy cannot succeed unless those who express their choice are prepared to choose wisely the real safeguard of democracy therefore is education. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time