17 Burst results for "Judah Folkman"
"judah folkman" Discussed on The Peter Attia Drive
"The benefit in that person and I think a number of empirical studies have looked at these cancer drugs and find that the benefits and the average American are maybe even absent I mean I'll give you one example. There's a drug Seraphin Abe in the trial that led to its approval. This is for patients with liver cancer they can't be treated by surgery this liver cancer. With a horse has left out of the barn and it cannot be cured with surgical rejection or transplant if you randomize them to Seraphic or placebo sugar pill dilemma months meetings arrival with Seraphim about eight months with placebo difference of about three months and this got a standing ovation at the national meeting. People really celebrated this drug a couple of researchers at Medicare data sets, your Medicare, which is Americans over the age of sixty five and they found people who took seraphic before this disease and they found the median survival of somebody who took seraphic in. Medicare. was around four months. So in other words in the real world somebody taking the drug that improves survival lives fifty. percent as long as the person taking sugar pill in the trial, which just shows you that the Grand Canyon of difference between real world patients and clinical trial patients, and in the real world compared those people taking seraphic who live four months to similar people who didn't take Serafini and they also have four months. So I think that some of the benefits of these drugs do evaporate when you give them in broad populations. First of all, I'm really glad you brought that up. I interviewed as Raza a little while ago and she made the same point I just don't think that can be overstated. So I, I WANNA. Make sure that people really understand what you're getting at. When we look at name plate clinical trials. They aren't just best case scenario by a little bit. They are best case scenario by a log order based on patient selection, and let's be clear if you're in the business of trying to get your drug approved, it is in your best interest to spoon feed and Handpick the absolute healthiest people on the planet in whom to test your drug. So again, the system is set up to make this happen. This isn't Some grand conspiracy, it's common sense. You've spent a billion dollars generating this drug. The final hurdle for you to get this drug to market is a very large phase three trial. You're not about to blow it by screwing up the patient selection. It's no different than being a trial lawyer who spends a year preparing for case, only to pick the wrong jury, you've got to do your job and pick the right patients. Your point is hey and has remained the same point luck the likelihood that the person sitting in your clinic in front of you is half as healthy as the patient that clinical trial is very low and therefore they're not going to be as resilient, which means a they probably can't tolerate the drug as well and be they don't have the physiologic reserve such that the Delta between them and the untreated patient is likely to be far compressed. That's right and I think you make another terrific point which is that we can't blame the tiger for being the tiger, the pharmaceutical companies doing what's rational they're tasked with running a trial to test their own product. If you win, you're gonNA earn on average twelve billion dollars in the next fourteen years. If you get a PO point Oh four nine, he twelve, billion, if you get a point Oh, five, one, you get minus A. Few hundred million dollars outlay on the drug, and if you haven't incentive system like that I mean, you should not blame the industry for I. Think all of the things we see in clinical trial design, which are of okay acceptable ways to put a thumb on the scale one of which is you carefully curate your patient population. Another is you test your new drug against well, maybe not the drug doctors are actually using maybe tested against. The oldest weakest drug in space maybe for patients who take the old drug when they have progressive disease, they don't get access to the best new drugs they get substandard care, which often happens in these registration studies there a number of ways that I think are within the realm of what people accept that allow gaming of the trial, and it will be irrational not to take advantage of that because the amount of money at stake. Is Vast and the incentive to put a thumb on the scale when you can is great but I think it's worth restating as you say that these are drugs that were really talking about the best case scenario in the best case scenario often less than desired should we go to the next part which is the cost how do you decide who pays? Yeah. So I'll think back to probably the first time I remember thinking about this. was when Glee was approved now glee. VAC was. I'm trying to think I was probably residency when GLIAC was approved Arabia two thousand one. Yeah it was a big deal because I remember in medical school. I had read Judah Folkman Book Judah Folkman has since passed but he was sort of luminary oncologist and he was basically one of the first people to propose this idea that if you cut off the blood supply to a tumor, you could stop a tumor and again to put this in the broader context this was a pretty remarkable idea because up until that point in time you had this idea that. You could cut a tumor out if it was localized, you could give a bunch of chemicals that targeted its ability to replicate. That was sort of the gist of chemotherapy or you could radiate the crap out of it, which also basically destroyed its ability to replicate and some people like Steve Rosenberg and Jim. Allison were working on these immunotherapy ideas but Judah comes along and says, look, there's another really obvious idea here, which is any cancer cell that leaves it site of origin and goes to take up residence somewhere else better figure out a way to get blood. and. So we have these growth factors for blood fed, jeff being one of them, and and so this whole new thing of anti vegf compounds comes along and so leave act becomes the first drug approved for this. If my memory serves me correctly, it was for colon cancer was the first indication you pay think of a Madden of Aston Oh that's right. I'm sorry. You're absolutely right I'm thinking of a vast and, of course, back is for gesture tumors. I'm actually thinking of Avon yes. Okay. Same time period though if asked him about two, thousand, two, thousand, one, maybe two, thousand and two and was it colon cancer for Aston Yeah. It was the first one. Yeah and I sorta remember directionally it being about one hundred thousand bucks for a year and do you remember what the improvement survival was with all the noted caveats that we just gave was it like eight versus twelve months or something to that effect? Thing goes less than that. I think the original paper that led to approval was the Hurwitz paper and I think it was on the order of a couple of months. But I I would say that if you look at a vast in across all the different cancers I mean you're you look at where it works where it doesn't work where it works..
"judah folkman" Discussed on From Scratch
"Where you could launch rockets. And then they also had a microscope set and they had a chemistry set and so I really enjoyed that kind of stuff when I was a little boy. I Even like with the chemistry set. I remember mixing different chemicals together and watching. The Solutions Changed Color. Which is magic but also it was a chemical reaction going on that caused that but I still I never thought about inventing it. I just thought it was. It was fun but you said that you that you fell into what you're doing accidentally or was it. Was it more mindful while I think it's somewhat accidental. I mean you know certainly had no grand plan ever. I think the big thing that changed it for me in terms of what I ended up doing was wouldn't postdoctoral work after I graduated from MIT. When I went to work for Judah Folkman and I was like probably one of the few chemical engineers in the world maybe the only one working in a surgery lab and I started thinking about applying chemical engineering to medicine and that that was that certainly changed my life. Dr Folkman compared research to driving at night. Can you describe that analogy? Yes that's that's very good doctor. Fogelman said You know trying to solve the problem of angiogenesis or some of the other things would be kind of like driving at night. You can only. You can't see past where the headlights go. But you can do the whole trip that way so in other words. You don't know the answer when you're starting but you could make steps and those steps would eventually get you there. What are some images that come to your mind when you think of your research you know one? Is this driving at night? What about like crystallization? You know how they have a formation of a crystal and it becomes like this whole network of Crystals. But that's my own candy that's significant. I mean that that's an example. Certainly one thing that actually we were involved in in fact we started a company on that too was a company called transform where one of the challenges actually when you make pharmaceuticals is having a good shelf life. Because you don't WanNA use a drug if if if the drug after you make it as unstable after a month nobody's GONNA use it. You can ship it all over the world you need and a lot of times. You won't use a drug for a year or two so getting the drug and the right crystal form. That's in the right stability. That actually is a big deal. If you don't get it Nari Crystal Form. It may not be stable and then it won't be useful to anybody but if it isn't there a crystal form it can be very stable. You exercise daily. How long have you been exercising? And why is it so important to you while I've probably been exercising probably for a lot? Probably the last thirty two years thirty. Three years is important while my dad died of a heart attack when he was sixty one twenty eight at the I mean it so I just WanNa live as long as I can for my kids and my wife and my family and what kind of extra what do you do for exercise. Well I Use A recumbent bike Elliptical machine treadmill And waits for how long probably two to three hours? A Day said two to three hours. That seems Above average I think it's probably quite a bit above average certainly for somebody my age but I I'm able to work while I do it and My wife and kids actually exercise a lot. You know we have this gym at home. So sometimes we're all doing it together or at least a few of us and so But I it is certainly above average. You mentioned your wife You met your wife at Mit. She's a neuroscientist. How did you meet? We met on the track. I was running actually outside and so she. I knew her though a little bit because one of the people in our lab was roommates with her so I knew her a little bit. But then we cy sore on the track when we started talking. And so that's how that happened but thank you very much for joining us. It's my pleasure. I enjoyed it very much. My guest has been the chemical engineer. Dr Robert Langer. I'm Jessica Harris. This is from scratch..
"judah folkman" Discussed on From Scratch
"How did the energy crisis indirectly lead you to the field of scientific discovery? Sure was this gas shortage. You know all over the country and there's the guests orders in Boston was really bad. So they're all kinds of jobs in the petrochemical oil industry for chemical engineers. They are hiring like crazy. Pretty much. My colleagues my friends. That's what they did. They got jobs in the oil industry and so I thought that's what I should do too so I went to A lot of interviews and I actually got about twenty job offers from different Oil companies actually four from Exxon alone. But I remember one of them in particular one of the engineers said to me if you could just increase the yield of this one chemical by like point one percent said that'd be wonderful. It'd be worth billions of dollars and I remember flying home to Boston that night thinking to myself. I just don't WanNa do that. Just seemed to me. You know that I could do things that I could do with my life that I thought maybe could help. People would be more important at least to me so So I started looking for other other ideas about what I could do. Now you send some ideas for a chemistry curriculum to various education institutions. How were they received one of the things I did when I was a graduate student at? Mit is. I helped. Start a school for poor kids and a high school and I got involved in creating new chemistry curricula and so I remember writing letters Answering different adds to different colleges To be an assistant professor that would be developing new chemistry curriculum but none of them wrote me back so the next thing I thought about since I wasn't doing so well finding good jobs finding any jobs where I could do chemistry education. I thought about medicine so I wrote a Lotta to route lot of hospitals medical schools. And they they didn't write me back either but one day One of the people in the lab ours at said to me said Bob. There's a surgeon in Boston. Named Judah Folkman and he said sometimes he hires unusual people. He thought very highly Dr Folkman. I won't say what he about me but I wrote to Dr Folkman and he was kind enough to offer me a job and it was your research with Dr Faulk men that had a seminal impact on What you're doing today to some degree. What was it specifically that you were working on? So Dr Folkman had a theory that if you could stop blood vessels from growing in the body that that might be a new way to stop cancer someday. A new way to treat cancer someday but it was a theory. Actually a lot of people didn't agree with that theory. And and what he asked me to do is to see. If I could isolate what would become the first Inhibitor of of angiogenesis. The first inhibitor of blood vessel growth. So that was how. That's how I got started. If you could stop the growth of blood vessels you could stop the growth of tumors developing further. Is that correct? The thinking was is that An is that tumors without blood vessels will not go beyond a very tiny size of about one millimeter cute but if the tumors permeated by blood vessels then that solves the nutrition problem from them for them and they can get much bigger and then of course they can also metastasized or spread through those same blood vessels and set up shop in other parts of the body. You used an eye of a rabbit to help with your research. What is special about the eye of a rabbit? Yeah well it's it's big So it's easy to visualize so what we thought about was if we could have a plastic. Aslo RELEASED POLYMER. That could take anything. That was in Cartilage that's what we were studying and a not cause harm to the eye and be deliver those molecules for a couple of months or more that that might be a way to study how blood vessels would grow or not grow. You mentioned polymers. These are plastics. Essentially the polymers. We use would be plastics. Polymers could also be rubber and so forth Palmer's basically along chain substance we're talking about manufactured tissues polymers. What was the landscape of biomaterials? When you were pioneering this field in the nineteen seventies. Yeah well it's interesting most biomaterials That people used in the body were are largely driven by medical doctors clinicians. And what they do is they would often go to their house and find an object. It would kind of resemble the organ or tissue. They wanted to fix so just to give a few examples it the material and the artificial heart that was ladies girdle material. Because it had a good you know good buoyancy your flex life and the material and a breast implant That was actually one of them was actually a mattress stuffing because it was the right. Squishy NECE The material in a what's called a vascular graft and artificial blood vessel that was a surgeon going to a close store and finding something they could so well with. And so almost. All of the biomaterials in the seventies had origins like that. They were sort of what I'd call off the shelf materials and that may solve some problems but it also created problems because they weren't optimally designed for the body presentable. If you take the artificial heart the ladies girdle material you put it in the body. And sometimes the blood hits the surface of that and it forms a clot and that clock. Go to the patient's brain and they'd get a stroke in they die and obviously there's been problems with different breast implant materials and other things as well. I'm Jessica Harris. You're listening to from scratch. My guest is the chemical engineer. Dr Robert Langer. Who is the chief researcher and founder of the Langar labs at Mit? He's considered a pioneer in the fields of tissue engineering and drug delivery in the nineteen eighties. You founded the LANGUOR lab at MIT. What was the purpose for this lab? My goals were to do things that I thought might someday help improve people's lives by doing things at the interface of chemical engineering and medicine. How was it received when you went to the administration at Mit? And said you know? I'd like to form this lab just to facilitate this research that I'm doing well certainly the my early years. Doing the research number of my senior colleagues didn't think it was very important or didn't think it was very good and they suggested that I probably should start looking for new jobs. Why wasn't because the field was so nascent there were a lot of I was that I think that that people people's idea of what's important probably has a lot to do with what they're doing themselves and you know and and and they had different areas in this department. But this didn't fit into any of those and the I think the thinking was if I didn't fit into something that that pre existed I probably wouldn't get promoted. I probably wouldn't get tenure since your research wasn't well received at MIT. Did you ever think of maybe moving to an environment? That was more friendly to the type of work. You're doing well I actually think. Mit was as friendly as any place. You know my first nine grants were turned down an nobody an MIT were on the sections at turned them down in fact mit was was. You know I still think is a great place to be if you go against the prevailing scientific wisdom anywhere in the world. You're going to run into problems. So how did you break through that conventional bias? Why don't know if I really ever did. I just kept doing the work that I thought was important and I started you know publishing it and and I think pharmaceutical companies started to notice it and they said that they were nice enough to say that the work they thought was very important. What were some examples of early breakthroughs that helped to lend credibility to what you were doing? So so we published this paper in nineteen seventy six in nature showing that you could deliver molecules of almost any size so that that was probably the breakthrough Or that was maybe the first breakthrough but people thought trying to get these molecules. Big Molecules through a plastic was kind of like you are walking through a brick wall even though the plastic was porous. Bob People didn't know that then and we didn't know that then either so the challenge would be the following. You could either have something that would be non-porous that you couldn't get through it all or anything. That was poorest. Would be kind of like Swiss cheese so you could get through it but then you get through it almost instantaneously and what we were saying was that we have these tiny little particles and yet the drugs would come out for over one hundred days so the problem would be. How could that happen? And not just defied what? I like to say conventional wisdom. We talk about your your research. I gaining an academic acceptance. What was the first example of the commercialization of one of your findings? Well there were a couple but I think one of the early ones was We designed polymers. That could Dissolve in a certain special way. And we what we call surface erosion kind of like how far. Soap dissolves and. What was done in this particular case as it delivers an anti cancer drug? It sorta told her all done locally so the cancer drug doesn't go throughout the whole body. It just is given locally. To the to the tumor and then there was a company originally Nova Pharmaceuticals and later Guilford pharmaceuticals that licensed it and developed it and ultimately it led to a product. That still used today actually intriguing. Brain cancer called Glee. Delaware for this is one of the earliest examples of the commercialization of one of your discoveries since then Roughly two hundred and fifty companies have license or sub-licensed. Your your discoveries were you surprised by this torrent of commercial applications for for what you were doing. It's hard to say whether I surprised or not. I wanted people to use it. You know when you're in academia and you're a professor. I mean you're training students which I love to do. And you're making discoveries and findings which is also what I like to do but I also WanNa see what we do get used. I just don't want it to be a scientific paper that just you know people read about. I wanted to see what we did. Have an impact on people's lives. That's why got involved in patenting processes them. That's why you know I. I wanted to see our things. Get licensed to companies and ultimately licensed create companies ourselves. Because if we didn't do that you know I find if you're not your own champion. It's very hard to find others. Who are going to be often. There's controversy around Tech transfer universities or academics using their discoveries for commercial ends because it leads to potential conflicts of interest. What was that landscape? Like free you think. Mit You know along with Stanford is probably one of the is the top to technology transfer places and in the world and I think their goal is really the same as mine is not actually to make money. It's not too it's really. How can we you know? Maximize the chances of products being developed. Mit which was founded in eighteen. Sixty one One of its mission was to provide and support industrialization of America so not had more of a commercial slant to it then perhaps academic institutions. I think that's right I think. Mit wants to see products created. They want to see things get out to the public incidently once say at a technology or an innovation is discovered and is profitable. It's split in three ways. Third of the profit goes to the Department. A third goes to the university and a third goes to the inventor. As far as I know that that's the policy that Mit us. And I think a lot of universities. Follow something close to that. We're talking about the profitability of some of these discoveries and you turn to the private sector for the funding of some of these companies. Polaris is a venture capital company in Boston. That has invested over two hundred million dollars in your company's roughly twenty companies How did that relationship start? There was a company we that was starting with A woman named Sherry Oberg and she was Wanted to have a company that would create a new imaging agents and we'd published a paper actually and science that lend itself to doing that. She was a dartmouth graduate on the business school. She knew a guy named Terry McGuire and she introduced me to him and was probably early nineties and she also asked if he was interested in investing in a company which he did. So we've had a great relationship in like you said they've probably done close to twenty companies That we've been involved in. What our imaging agents you said that she developed so in this case. Let's say you were doing an ultrasound And for certain things you can use ultrasound and get a pretty good picture but for example if you wanted to see whether you had a heart defector certain other kinds of vascular abnormality and you try to use ultrasound. Contrast isn't good enough so if you could create an ultrasound contrast station that was good enough. Then you could see things by ultrasound imaging that you wouldn't really be able to see otherwise and you could certainly see it with much much greater detail. So for instance. If you're pregnant and you go to get an ultrasound. Are Some of these. Imaging agents used in seeing the baby and the Placenta. So in the case of of looking at a baby. You don't need to do that because I think the contrast good enough. But if you wanted to look at if you want it to look at something much smaller. Let's say you want to look at at at I'll make this up the babies Toe or something like that and you wanted to zoom in on. It might be very hard to see with the regular picture. The contrast agent might be useful for doing that by the way. I think there are still hardly any ultrasound. Agents approved The ultrasound contrast agents approved. I expect there will be by this or others..
"judah folkman" Discussed on The Dr. Gundry Podcast
"Today we live in a world where your doctor is far more likely to prescribe expensive medication than a handful of Kale. But my guess today says that we need to start thinking of food as medicine. Magin that and realized that we already have all the tools we need to fight disease and to live longer healthier lives. He's Dr William Lee. Dr Lee is a world renowned physician scientists speaker and author. He's written over one hundred scientific publications and his two thousand ten Ted Talk. Can we eat to starve? Cancer has been viewed more than eleven million times. He's also the author of the bestselling book to beat disease. The new science of how your body can heal itself on today's episode. Dr Lee and I are going to talk about your five natural health defense systems and how to boost them his five by five by five technique. In why thanks. Beer might actually be good for you. Dr Lee Welcome to the Doctor Henry. Podcast it's a pleasure and thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming. This is gonNA be really exciting. Let's start with the title one of the chapters in your new book. Starve your disease feed your help. What do you mean by that? And how can people actually do that? Well you know as a physician as fellow physicians. We know that what we can really impact our bodies but when it comes to food and health what really matters is how our body responds to what we put inside it and why we stay healthy at all like why. Don't we get sick? More often and cancer is one of these diseases that everybody cares about because it is such a feared condition. And what I read about. Is that in fact? We're forming cancers in bodies all the time we've got trillions of cells. That are making decisions. And they're gonNA make mistakes and these mistakes lead. Microscopic cancers that are completely harmless because our body defends against their growth one of the way that they defend against their growth that they don't allow blood vessels to grow into them. But when cancers hijack those blood vessels is called a process called tumor angiogenesis growing new blood vessels to feed the cancer. At tumor can grow up sixteen thousand times in only two weeks so the question is how can we boost our body's defenses against cancer? Blood Vessel Growth and foods can help starve cancer by cutting off. Its blood supply really combine. Now you mean there's actually food I know we're going to get into this. That can actually starve cancer. So yeah we'll look. The story goes back into the early nineteen seventies when the first idea of controlling cancer without chemotherapy. Came about and that's a biological approach so rather than just trying to slash and burn everything. Could we clip those blood vessels? It's like as like a harmful scuba diver. Frogman ENEMY FROGMEN. Kip Clippers Eros right. Now I can't breathe got to come to the surface you can pick them right out and so the idea of can we do. The same thing for cancer. Came about in Boston. In a laboratory. By the name of a guy named Judah Folkman who I trained with that ultimately led to biotechnology companies developing angiogenesis drugs that are super powerful approved more than a dozen of them and they're super expensive and so what I did. Actually as somebody who's been involved with that drug development use the same approaches that are that are applied to drug development to study food and when food is studied in the same systems. We use to study medicine. You got some real science behind him. So yes there are. Foods that inhibit angiogenesis. So what you're saying is your doctor who actually helped develop these drugs expensive drugs right exactly and then you said well. I'm very proud of developing these drugs. But surely there's a better less expensive way of doing it. Is that putting words in your mouth. Not exactly what happened? I mean honestly when I was involved with doing cancer research I was marveling at the fact that you could go online order. Experimental Chemotherapy Drug Fedex. The next day you could test it into in the research lab test tube or an animal and within a few days you would know if this was effective against cancer but yet you could call it food delivery service and have something delivered within a half an hour or fifteen minutes of it was a pizza and researchers would know how to actually deal with that like how would you study that and I thought that was wrong so what I actually did was figure out how to break things down from a food perspective down into ways that we can study using real sites. Yeah I think that's why you and I have hit a common bond. Is that you know. I was hoping lifesaving surgical techniques to treat heart disease for instance and actually lung cancers and I said. Gosh wait a minute. There's gotta be a better way of doing this of course changed my career So I think it's really exciting to have two individuals who came from the medical side of developing techniques and said. Wait a minute he. We should look at foods as the option. When I think what what it means is that we can actually speak the same language across almost any area of medicine and that allows us to actually communicate with our peers and colleagues in medicine as well as our patients as well as families and I. I think. That's what's really important. I'm sure we went into medicine for the same for the same reasons. Which is that. We wanted to help people to help people. You have to communicate them okay. So you've got five health defense systems. What are they and how do they affect your health right? So what is health right so we were there? Ask a doctor or ask You know an athlete or a school kid. They probably tell you the same thing which is a health is the absence of disease right. If you're not sick you're healthy. I actually argue my book. That's exactly not true. Health is much more than the absence of disease is the presence of are hardwired. Defense Systems that we've been born with health defense systems that are firing on all cylinders from the day were born until our very last breath and these health defense systems. Actually are the reasons why we don't get sick. More often. And some of them relate to and these are all based on biotechnology so we know our angiogenesis. Our circulation is critical brings oxygen and nutrients to every cell are stem. Cells is plenty of drug companies trying to biotech companies. Try and develop stem cell therapies. But guess what our body produces. Its own stem cells that we can actually use in foods can mobilize those the microbiome. Everybody knows now that health is.
"judah folkman" Discussed on Masters in Business
"Let's say it's a sniper or it's an air attack routes drone attack. They will adapt. They will figure out a way too high. They will figure out how to evade that particular cure angle. And so if you want to succeed you need a shock-and-awe you need to use the army. You need to use the air force you to use the navy. You need to use drones you need to use snipers you need to a US cyber you have all of them at once in order to completely wipe it out and it's the same thing with cancer cancer as a rogue set of cells operating in your your body. They're just growing out of control. There is an accelerator pedal that stuck in it just broke. And there's a brake pedal that halted the growth. That also broke. That's why cancer take decades to develop you have to have all these system just breakdown whether it's time or because you smoke and you're you're you're messing up the cell with with the carcinogens agents and smoke it takes time to accumulate. These failures and after the first break system fails in the second brake system in the backup system fails in this cancer cells starts growing rolling and doubling and growing and doubling and you can't just attack it with just the army or the Navy or just the air force you need to come at it from all directions at the same time and then you have a chance. The few cancers that we've cured and there's a small handful of cancels it we've cured. That's what we've done. It's almost always some combination in shock attack and it's the right combination at the right time. The can actually overwhelm the cancer and wipe it out so how far along is humanity in during quote unquote cancer. which we know is three hundred or so separate diseases to to be fair right? And so the the reason the people in in medicine or science on talk so much about curing cancer is because it is three hundred different diseases. Your cure diabetes at the same time as you cure heart attacks at the same time. As you see your Alzheimer's 'cause they're really different diseases and cancer sort of like that. But let's say if you call it. Roughly three hundred different types of cancer. Sir I mean it's you know less than ten that we've made such astounding progress on its childhood. Leukemia is one example where where it used to be a ninety ninety five percent mortality rate within six months or a year and now it's more like eighty or ninety percent go on to live long lives that's astounding downed right and you can see. We're not there yet with many other cancers but for example. When I started almost twenty years ago melanoma was a death sentence? uh-huh every time you ran a melanoma trial for probably thirty years clinical trial the placebo arm or the standard care arm and the treatment arm would be identical dental. It's been two or three or four years. Everybody would put in all this time and it was always the same disappointing result now almost so so. Many trials are positive something turned the corner. Why is that? Why are we were successful with that? Form of cancer versus others well. Melanoma turned turned out to be a type of cancer. That's very sensitive to the immune system and we still don't know why there's a lot of theories but it happens to be one of not many but a small number of cancer types and it may be because it's near the skin and the skin is so sensitive to the immune system. There are a lot of immune cells there. 'cause when something lands on your skin you cut short cutch immune system Russia's over so may be that melanoma is a special case but in it. What was fantastic as win when maybe seven eight nine years ago the first trials started showing dramatic effect? It's not a cure but we are so much better in that disease. There was a lot of serendipity there like even the work on the immune system. That's a hundred year. Old Idea. People notice noticed that a long time ago that sometimes when the immune system is activated cancers go away you you sneeze on people if you just if you're treatment is hey let's sneeze on this this cancer patient right five out of one hundred or ten out of one hundred might have complete remissions of. They're really people that they knew that actually fifty sixty years ago go from the clinics for tuberculosis. We don't have those anymore. These clinics people who had tuberculosis used to send to but people who had melanoma and we go go to these clinics a surprisingly high percentage of them their cancers would disappear and that's because they were fighting this infection and immune system was activated. vade so we still don't understand the science of that but you said how far we we're at the beginning of the exponential curve. What's happened is about fifteen or twenty years ago? We got the tools rules with sequenced the genome. The biotech -nology kind of revolution of twenty thirty years ago that allowed us to grow proteins in the lab and make those commercial scale create a new set of tools. And we're just starting it's really just the beginning of using those amazing tools to do do things. Like one of those things is getting the immune system to fight fight tumors and like I said there's about one hundred years of trying to do that and none of the standard approaches just work and then no one exactly knows why someone tried to slightly different angle. Let's target this protein not that immune protein boom it worked and and it wasn't even the original protein that the scientists had been thinking about would be the key to it all for many many years even the scientists to win the Nobel Prize. They thought it'd be this other thing that would be the key. It turns out with this thing. Nobody knew so. There's so much Sarah. It's really the combination of strong science and in an appreciation of serendipity when you can put those two things together then magic can happen so taking where we are in that j-curve starting the that ramp up of the hockey stick Is it a fair question to ask. Will we see cancer. The Emperor of Maladies to borrow the book title Title Cured in our lifetime. I think we will see certain cancers we've seen three or four five go you know well. Beyond ninety percent of the people who are diagnosed with it had more than five or sometimes more than ten years survival so by any reasonable definition you could call that a cure and slowly slowly. Were getting better and better. The survival times in melanoma have gotten longer in law longer multiple Myeloma unit twenty years ago. That was a death. Sentence is there was nothing and then an almost serendipitous event. There was a woman here in New York who was thirty one who called a doctor that I used I used to work with in in Boston. Named Judah Folkman who had this kind of wild crazy idea. Hey let's fight tumors by blocking blood vessels to the tumors and everybody thought that was the dumbest idea they've ever heard really anti angiogenesis exactly. At the time. Everybody knew that the only way to fight tumors was to bomb them with key poison them with chemotherapy like giant bomb or burn them with radiation idea that there were these huddle signals the tumors humor like homes and they were laying down pipes and if you could block those pipes you could slow the growth of those homes that was considered radical Judah was asked to there is a special committee at his hospital that was asked to evaluate his work because it was so controversial and said well. We don't think there's any value here. You need to resign really what you're doing doing that's astonishing. And how did that progress from there. Well he was. I remember he was talking to some post Docs student who said who was like. Oh I'm really depressed I you know I. My paper was rejected and he said to her said well. If you want to understand rejection come to my office I will show you pink slips with the word clown on them around thirty two years. After he first suggested his idea on a stage in Chicago a guy got up. Scientists got up packed auditorium. Am to present the data from the largest study ever run to that date. In patients with advanced colon cancer pressed a button and flipped the slide patients who had received the drug based on Judas ideas lived longer on average than anyone had ever lived with advanced colon cancer. It was like a standing ovation. This was thirty two years after Judah I suggested his ideas was a standing ovation. I remember speaker said something like the only doctor. Folkman were alive to see this and Judah was actually sitting in the back and turn to his neighbor and smiled and Indepth indepth raises handed. Today still here still here now but it was just a any love telling that story. But it's an example of all the these these pe these ideas that are dismissed as crazy and so many things that we take for granted today even facebook. If you remember when Zuckerberg was going around to raise money for it in two thousand as an for every social network had failed my space was just failing friendster. Well my space was friendster was just failing and every every investor. Ah almost all intelligent investors said. Well there's no money social networks can't make any money 'cause they're just fads. Everybody goes to the next one cool. Well they were one investor. Took a look at that and he said well. Is that really true. And you know that was Peter Thiel and you're out of five hundred thousand dollar check and sold it eight years later for a billion Leeann dollars not not a bad return but it was the same thing with so many of these things search. Everybody said Oh. You're crazy you can't make google twenty-seventh search any seven and everybody said you can't make any money. It's just like a yellow pages. There's no money in yellow pages. Come on. Give us a break. But one of my favorite books is William Goldman's adventures In screenwriting and he talks about nobody knows anything in Hollywood and the list of of movies that were passed over by every studio radio from e t to star wars to raiders of lost like one amazing movie after another. Nobody wanted anything to do with my favorite is the James Bond Star in Fleming when he wrote. This wrote this book that became reasonably popular. Not a huge success. He he really wanted that kind of life. That you know the James Bond and every studio nine years just said. Are you kidding. A Metro Sexual British spy who saves the World American audience is going to go for that. And he finally kind of gave up gave it to these to sort of not very reputable producers and the studio that finally took it had so little confidence they said. Who was this actor in here? used to drive a milk truck. He's been to movies. is named Sean Connery. What no way? No one's going. They open it in to drive in studios in Texas and Oklahoma and of course it became the most successful longest running film franchise in history so most of these things that we take for granted today began life as a loon shot and one of the things one of the lessons that you learn when you work on these things you need to expect the three deaths the deaths that they will die several real times quite fascinating. Let's talk a little bit about life at a pharmaceutical company or biotech company. You mention in how often things are overlooked. How how many times drugs and ideas and concepts have to fail?.
"judah folkman" Discussed on From Scratch
"Used. I used to do a shows when my kids were little that i remember one time even doing a show at m._i._t. For four hundred people that was a while ago i i'm probably pretty rusty now. Is there an area of of magic that you prefer. Do you like the cards or the body disappearance or what yeah well actually. I like. I like the cards people have often broken up magic into the two kinds of magic stage magic and close up magic stage. Magic is like the body disappearing and things like that but i've i've always liked the sort of close up magic with cards urge coins but particularly cars of always thought those those are fascinating in a way magic and chemistry or science seem on the face of it very similar. You have something that on the surface is is wow generating and your job and your hobby is to understand how to create that that wow you your job is to understand the reasons for that outcome amid some things could even you know appear like magic like we just published a paper a week week or two ago in science where some of my post docs found like this <hes> this plastic or polymer that can you put it on your hand and starts jumping all over the place and it can even lift things that's almost magical and and a lot of what we've ended up doing in the lab is is understanding better phenomena that <hes> is is extremely only complicated. How long have you been in interested in magic. Oh i've been many many years since i was a little boy. You grew up in albany new york. What did your parents. Let's do well. My dad ran <hes> small liquor store and my mom was a homemaker and jeremy my sister. What was your home life like. Was it was great. I mean you know we lived on a small street in albany. <hes> you know i had a lot of friends. Remember playing baseball and football and things like that uh-huh. I want to the local public school twenty-seven it was it was nice. You're an inventor essentially. At what point did you think you know. I'd like to be an inventor under or some type of creator or engineer <hes> in your childhood. Were those seeds apparent to you that early. They weren't apparent to me that early but one of the things that that i had <hes> that i gotta skiffs <hes> there's a company called gilbert when i was a little boy and they have made all kinds of great the things that kids like to play with i mean they had this erector set and they had a whole bunch of different ones of various <hes> complexity you know where you could build structures like a merry go around and other where there was like a parachute jump another where you could launch rockets and then they also had a microscope set and they had a chemistry set and so i really enjoyed that kind of stuff when i was a little boy and i <hes> <hes> even like with the chemistry set i remember mixing different chemicals together and watching and the solutions changed color which is magic but also it was a chemical reaction going on that caused that but i still i never thought about inventing it. I just i thought it was it was fun. Would you say that you that you fell into what you're doing. Accidentally or was it. Was it more mindful while i think it's somewhat accidental. Is it dental. I mean you know. I certainly had no grand plan ever. I think the big thing that changed it for me. In terms of what i ended up doing was wouldn't what my post doctoral work after i graduated from m._i._t. When i went to work for judah folkman and i was like probably one of the few chemical engineers in the world maybe the only only one working in a surgery lab and i started thinking about applying chemical engineering to medicine and that that was that certainly changed my life..
"judah folkman" Discussed on From Scratch
"How did the energy crisis indirectly lead you to the field of scientific typic- discovery sure there was this gas shortage you know all over the country and there's the guests orders in boston was really bad so they're all kinds of jobs in the petrochemical oil industry for chemical engineers. They are hiring like crazy pretty much <hes> my colleagues my friends. That's what they did they. It got jobs in the oil industry and so i thought that's what i should do too so i went to <hes> a lot of interviews and i actually got about twenty job offers from different. <hes> oil companies actually four from exxon alone but i remember one of them in particular. One of the engineers said to me if you could just increase the yield of this one chemical by like point. One percent said that'd be wonderful. It'd be worth billions of dollars and i remember flying home to boston that night thinking to myself. I just don't wanna do that. Just seemed to me. You know that i could do things that i could do with my life that i thought maybe could help. People would be more important at least to me so <hes> so. I started looking for others other ideas about what i could do now. You send some ideas for a chemistry curriculum to various education institutions. How were they received one of the things i did when i was a graduate student at m._i._t. Is i helped start a school for poor kids and a high school and i got involved alton creating new chemistry curricula and so i remember writing letters <hes> answering different adds to different colleges <hes> to be an assistant professor yes sir that would be developing new chemistry curriculum but none of them wrote me back so the next thing i thought about since i wasn't doing so well finding good jobs. We're finding any jobs where i could do chemistry education. I thought about medicine so i wrote a lotta to route lot of hospitals medical schools and they they didn't write me back either but one day <hes> one of the people in the lab ours at said to me said bob. There's a surgeon in boston named judah folkman and he said sometimes he hires unusual people..
"judah folkman" Discussed on People's Pharmacy
"News from the people's pharmacy this week. Welcome to the people's pharmacy. I'm Joe Graydon. And I'm Terry Graydon in the early nineteenth century philosopher and writer rookie y'all seven rant wrote. You are what you eat. Of course. He said it in French. So it sounded more elegant in the mid twentieth century author. Adele Davis popularizes message. Have we forgotten it today, we are exploring the evidence for food as medicine to do. So we turn to Dr William Lea he's a physician researcher and president and founder of the angiogenesis foundation. He's worked on the development of more than thirty new medical treatments and served on the faculty of Harvard Medical School. His book is eat to beat disease. The new science of how your body can heal itself. Welcome to the people's pharmacy. Dr William Lee. Well, thank you for inviting me, it's a pleasure to be here. And I'm looking forward to speaking with you, Dr Lee you worked with one of the most extraordinary researchers that we've ever had the opportunity to interview Dr Judah Folkman, your background is in the field of angiogenesis, which is what he was studying. What exactly is this big word angiogenesis? And why is it? So important. Angiogenesis is a Greek word and NGO refers to blood and Genesis is growing and enter Genesis simply is the growth of blood vessels. And how our body grows and nurtures its circulation. I was one of doctor Judah Folkman original students back in the nineteen eighties and was privileged to learn. How a true visionary of science. Imagine idea develops it in a laboratory confronts both colleagues as well as critics to develop the data an evidence supporting new idea, and then how it is actually brought all the way to new treatments for human disease. So enter Genesis is a complicated words, but I think over time we're going to be hearing more and more about it in the same way that antibiotics back in the nineteen forties was difficult word and everybody knows it. Now. Deck Lee in your book, eat to beat disease, you suggest that health is an active process, not just the absence of disease. What do you mean? Well, I'm a medical doctor I trained at Massachusetts General Hospital, which is one of the Harvard teaching hospitals, and and I also went to medical school at the university of Pittsburgh where I spent a decade learning about disease, and how to treat it using medicines surgery and many of the advanced tools that we have today in medicine that are life saving tools. I've also been involved through my work at the angiogenesis foundation, which is a nonprofit to drive forward better treatments to help people live better lives. But in all of this one of the things that I realized when I was taking care of my patients who would receive a a deadly diagnosis or difficult diagnosis, and they would ask you know, what it is that they could do for themselves. I started to realize that there was something missing from the vernacular of medicine, and that is. Really a true dialogue about an understanding about health is self. So when I say that health is not the absence of disease because that's what we normally think of what is it then, and that's really what I've turned my research towards which is to use everything I know about disease fighting and biotechnology frankly and to ask that question, what is health, and what does it mean to be healthy? The answer is really quite fascinating. Our health is not an absence of anything. But rather a series of hardwired defense systems that we are born with when we emerged from our mothers, womb all the way until our last breath. Our body is working to protect itself through these health defense systems that help our circulation. They help regenerate our organs and replace older tissues. They communicate through with our bacteria. In our healthy gut. They protect our DNA, and they actually star immunity, and so health is really a system of health defenses that are firing and also Anders protecting us. Our bodies against the assaults of
"judah folkman" Discussed on The Accidental Creative
"Like, no that's ridiculous. I'm a product guy. So he had a blind spot as bright spot was he was a p type in. He was a product type in. I always want the, you know, the fastest coolest new technology, and he missed a subtle shift in strategy, which was it software ended up mattering a lot more. So actually, I'll give you another example same same era. Ibm people think well, you know, you know, IBM got killed in the late eighties nineties and two massive layoffs because their PC business. Got killed by got you know, got killed. But what people don't realize is IBM was at a very innovative product company. They were the dominant company hardware company technology company in the country. If not the world, the entire computer industry was called IBM and the seven dwarfs and people think, you know, big companies can't innovate like oh. Maybe they missed the PC revolution dough, they innovated terrifically. They actually as soon as personal computer came out. I it was there was some small Commodore and then apple and the Tandy radio shack. And then I B M got in the game. They weren't. I I met him in you know, a year or two later, they just wipe them away. IBM went to number one within three or four years. I don't know if you're old enough to remember. But the IBM PC and all that stuff there would by far the dominant. So they actually became number one. And what did they do? They said, well, you know, we are a personal computer were were computer company. Were hardware company. We'd been hardware company for our whole lives. And that's how we make money. They were a phenomenal p type innovator. So not to do that. They said, you know, we'll just outsource a couple of these things that don't matter. I don't know something like the micro processors. That's just a component. So we'll give it to this little struggling company called Intel. And then, you know, software softwares a dime. A dozen lot of little software company. So we'll give it to this little company in Seattle called Microsoft, right? So they outsource that stuff. And they were the big king. So they were they also had a blind spot about what mad. They just thought products and boxes and hide women, and they missed a subtle change in strategy of what matters. So the reason that the distinction is interesting is like, let's say, you're technology person. And you love fancy gadgets, you tend to have kind of blinders on on fancy gadgets, and you miss the small shifts in strategy that can make a huge difference or give you one where here's an example, WalMart, if WalMart was a country, I think it'd be rank like seventeen or eighteen in the world's GDP crazy. There's just an amazing stat. It is it is incredible. And so did Sam Walton when he built his company in wiped out all of discount retailing? Did he do any new technology? No, no, none other. I know he just moved his stores somewhere else. Yeah. He moved his stores to rural areas, actually as I mentioned the book that wasn't by design. It was kind of an accident serendipitous. But it doesn't matter. He just moved his store and figured out. How to sell stuff a little bit cheaper like a dime? You know, just a few percent, and that was a small shift and Saturday, but it wiped out all his competitor. There is no technology. So the reason it's interesting is just to become I is it can help people become more self aware. And it plays very broadly. If you're a scientist, you might work on let me or a chemist or ballots. Let me create this new drug or that new drug and see how it works, but the s type equivalent is let me take an existing drug and apply it somewhere, totally different. I'll give you a really weird example. Have you heard of solidified? I have the limit is probably the most infamous drug in history it caused it was given a for morning sickness because there was an incredibly powerful and effective sedative in the nineteen fifties. Forty four hundred fifties up through forget the exact date off the top of my head. But given is a set of especially in Europe and discovered not long thereafter that it caused deformation in babies so grew into this horrific drug where these horrific peaked pictures of children born with deformed limbs, and it was banned forever and about twenty or thirty years later. There was a team in Boston looking. For a new drug that could help fight cancers by blocking blood vessels. So they kind of search through in and one of them is a guy. I knew very well who worked with us at our biotech company. Judah Folkman said, you know, if something blocks blood vessels, it would probably be pretty bad for pregnant women. Why don't we just do a search through database of drugs that block blood vessels sorry through our database of drug that are Tetra genyk that are indicated to be very bad for pregnant women and up came, of course, the limit. So he said, well, why don't we test that in the lab it was him in a post doc work with him named Bob D'amoto, what we said in the lab, and they found sure enough it was incredibly potent inhibitor of blood vessels. So not long thereafter. There was a woman a young woman in New York who had her husband was dying of who had stage for advanced multiple myeloma. And she was just calling around everybody. She could find and she got a hold of Judah Folkman snake called him. Up in Boston and said, you know, my husband has multiple myeloma. What do you think? And he said, well, there's this drug thalidomide. I was his terrible drug. But we think you know, it could it could work. For your husband's disease. They tried it. It didn't actually work for husband resulted late. But the second patient they gave it to have this remarkable a remission of his of his cancer and that drug thalidomide became the first major new approved therapies for multiple myeloma, which was transforming lives in in decades. So that's an example of an s type idea in science. He didn't invent a new drug. You just thought cleverly had a different strategy Sam Walton moving stores to rural areas and pricing stuff. You know, ten percent left. Visit different strategy. Yes. Not about creating a fancy new project, and the reason that becoming self aware of our u p p type innovator or an s type innovator do you like to think of new uses for stuff and create different ideas and different strategies for models or do you like to create hard new gadgets? The reason becoming a little more self aware. How about that? Can be useful. Is that if you can learn to be ambidextrous to do both of them, you can become incredibly powerful, if you're naturally, a p type innovator, if you learn those as type skills to think when you have a new product where all the different strategies, how could it change customers or markets or competitors? In all the different ways. We can flip this around and use it for new uses you could enormously grow the reach of your product or your idea. So what means ways for people to to begin to identify that? Because I think that's that's you've really hit a nerve. I'm sure with the listeners who say, wait a minute. I think I might have a blind spot in one or the other of those areas, you what are some ways that we can we can deal with that blindspot well becoming self aware as is half the battle giving example with Steve Jobs. So obviously he started off like a lot of young entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley. Everywhere, you know, with a tech mindset, impure technology guy. And then he went.
"judah folkman" Discussed on From Scratch
"Holds over eight hundred issued or pending patents two hundred and fifty companies have licensed or sub-license the discoveries originated in his lapse. Dr Langer is a magician. I'd like to turn to your personal life. Tell me about this. Magic. By magic. So from time to time. I try to learn how to do tricks in. I'm taking even a magic class. And you know, I would always love going to magic shops and seeing people do do tricks, and I used to do shows when my kids were little that. I remember one time even doing a show at MIT for four hundred people that was a while ago. I I'm probably pretty rusty now area of magic that you prefer do you like the cards or the body disappearance or what? Yeah. Well, actually, I like I like the cards people have often broken magic into two kinds of magic stage. Magic and close up. Magic the stage. Magic is like the body disappearing and things like that. But I've I've always liked the sort of close up magic with cards or coins. But particularly cards of always thought those those were fascinating in a way magic and chemistry or science seem on the face of it, very similar. You have something that on the surface is well generating and you're. Your job and your hubby is to understand how to create that. Wow. You your job is to understand the reasons for that outcome image. Something's could even you know appear like magic like we just published a paper a week or two ago and science where some of my post docs, found like this this plastic or polymer that can you put it on your hand and start jumping all over the place, and it can even lift things, that's almost magical and a lot of what we've ended up doing in. The lab is is understanding better phenomena. That is extremely complicated. How long have you been interested in magic? Oh, I've been you know, many many years since a little boy, you grew up in Albany, New York. What did your parents do? Well, my dad ran a small liquor store, and my mom was a homemaker me. And my sister. What was your home life like? It was it was great. I mean, you know, we lived on a small street in Albany. You know, had a lot of friends member playing baseball and football and things like that. And I went to the local public school twenty-seven Lewis. It was nice, you're inventor, essentially, at what point did you think, you know, I like to be an inventor or some type of creator or engineer in your childhood where those seeds apparent to you that early. They weren't apparent to me that early. But one of the things that I had that I got us gifts. There's a company called Gilbert when I was a little boy, and they made all kinds of great things that kids like to play with. I mean, they had this erector set, and they had whole bunch of different ones of various complexity, you know, where you could build structures like a merry go round and other where there was like a parachute jump another way you could launch rockets, and then they also had a microscope set, and they had a chemistry set. And so. I really enjoyed that kind of stuff when I was a little boy. And I even like with the chemistry shout. I remember mixing different chemicals together. And watching the solutions change color, which is magic. But also, it was a chemical reaction going on the caused that. But I still I didn't never thought about inventing it. I just thought it was it was fun. You said that you that you fell into what you're doing accidents. Or was it was it more mindful while I think it's somewhat accidental. I mean, you know, I certainly had no grand plan ever. I think the big thing that changed it for me. In terms of what I ended up doing was what my post doctoral work after I graduated from MIT when I went to work for Judah Folkman. And I was like probably one of the few chemical engineers in the world. Maybe the only one working in surgery lab. And I started thinking about applying chemical engineering to medicine, and that that was that certainly changed my life..
"judah folkman" Discussed on From Scratch
"At MIT and this was during the nineteen seventies during the energy crisis. How did the energy crisis indirectly lead you to the field of scientific discovery? Sure. The sketch shortage, you know, all over the. Entry the gas orders in Boston was really bad. So they're all kinds of jobs in the petrochemical industry for chemical engineers. They are hiring like crazy pretty much, my colleagues my friends. That's what they did. They got jobs in the ARL industry. And so I thought that's what I should do too. So I went to a lot of interviews. And I actually I got about twenty job offers from different oil companies actually four from Exxon alone. But I remember one of them in particular, one of the engineers said to me, and if you could just increase the yield of this one chemical by like point one percent, he said that would be wonderful be worth billions of dollars. And I remember flying home to Boston that night thinking to myself. I just don't want to do that just seemed to me, you know, that I could do things that I do with my life that I thought maybe could help people and would be more important at least to me. So so I started looking for other other ideas about what I could do. Now, you send. Some ideas for a chemistry curriculum to various education institutions Hauer. They received one of the things I did when I was a graduate student at MIT as I helped start a school for poor kids and high school, and I got involved in creating new chemistry curricula. And so I remember writing letters answering different adds to different colleges to be an assistant professor that would be developing new chemistry curriculum. But none of them wrote me back. So the next thing I thought about since I wasn't doing. So well, finding good jobs finding any jobs where I could do chemistry education. I thought about medicine so I wrote a lot to route lot of hospitals and medical schools, and they they didn't write me back either. But one day one of the people in the lab ours at said to me said Bob there's a surgeon in Boston named Judah Folkman, and he said sometimes he hires unusual people. He thought very highly Dr Folkman, I won't say what he thought about Mick. But I wrote to Dr Folkman, and he was kind. Enough to offer me a job, and it was your research with Dr Faulk men that had a seminal impact on what you're doing today to some degree. What was it specifically that you were working on? So Dr Folkman had a theory that if you could stop blood vessels from growing in the body that that might be a new way to stop cancer someday a new way to treat cancer someday. But it was a theory and actually a lot of people didn't agree with that the and and what he asked me to do is to see if I could isolate what would become the first inhibitor of of angiogenesis, I inhibitor of blood vessel growth. So that was how that's how I got started. If you could stop the growth of blood vessels. You could stop the growth of tumors developing further is that correct? Yeah. As hit the thinking was is that an is that tumors without blood vessels will not go beyond a very tiny size of about one millimeter cute. But if the tumors permeated by blood vessels than that solves nutrition problem from them for them, and they can get much bigger. And then of course, they can also metastasized or spread through those same blood vessels and set up shop in other parts of the body of a rabbit. To help with your research. What is special about the eye of a rabbit? Yeah. Well, it's it's big. So it's easy to visualize. So what we thought about was if we could have a plastic slowly polymer that could take anything that was in cartilage. That's what we were studying and a not cause harm to the eye and be deliver those molecules for a couple months or more that that might be a way to study how blood vessels would grow or not grow. You mentioned polymers these are plastics, essentially, the polymers we use would be plastics polymers could also be rubber and so forth commerce. Basically a long chain substance. We're talking about manufactured tissues polymers, what was the landscape of bio materials when you were pioneering this field in the nineteen seventies..
"judah folkman" Discussed on On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts
"So as as she was saying, I think that after time people can quit look over their shoulder every day. I get up and wondering if the is looming for them again and move on. I mean, that's what makes me so happy about the show about Sharon's experience because she was told by physicians don't have any children and after a while five and she said, none cared. I'm gonna have my kids normal life, Monica mcnealy. How I mean, how many immunotherapy is are are out there right now. Well, we have fifteen cancer indication. Fifty indications. So fifteen specific cancer conditions that are now approved have drugs approved by the US FDA for treatment using him, you know therapies. But what's another fascinating thing about our field is there are literally thousands last count about two thousand different new immunotherapy drugs agents approaches that are currently undergoing clinical testing. So the field is just been blown wide open by by the proof of principle that untangling this biology can have a true transformative effect on patients lives, and I just took a single landslide two thousand currently in development or clinical trial, different agents from hitting different tart, different components of the immune system are all undergoing. Nicole testing across the world. And when's the last time cancer research has seen that kind of explosion in potential therapies? Oh, I don't think ever. I mean, this is really this is really a completely new era. And you know, we really have to knowledge that why are we here? We're here because there's been a tremendous investment on the part of our government on the part of of of industry in understanding tumor biology in a very deep level. And that understanding is leading to so many different possibilities for for treatment of cancer. I wonder if I, I, I wanna just inject a little bit of not skepticism, but perhaps a little caution here because and please correct me if I'm wrong because I remember a while ago maybe a generation ago, there was a lot of excitement, for example, around Judah Folkman research and NGO Genesis and cancers thinking like if we, if we sort of figured out a way to block the blood flow to tumors at that would be a way to. To really get rid of any and all cancers in the body. Very exciting line of research perhaps didn't yield the kind of treatments that we're seeing. Now with immunotherapy should we so should we continue to have some some measure of a grain of salt or skepticism, even around this moment of great excitement of jail Magnette couldn't have possibly picked a better example. You know, we didn't plan this, but you know, one of the things I'm sure Dr Alison can will chime in here too, is that that work that Dr Folkman did to look at the blood vessels is now being combined with the drugs that Dr Allison's group has developed with with came out of his work and the combination of targeting the blood vessel together with targeting the tea with activating the taking the brakes off the t. cell is producing even better responses in some tumors. So at that nothing goes wasted. That's that's correct corrected the one of the things that we're realizing that. Is coming coming. True is that does that just immunotherapy can be combined with not only other therapies but with conventional therapies chemotherapy. And as you said end you enter Genesis therapies in virtually anything that kills tumor cells can be used to prime immune response. So that's why they're so many combinations out there. So many that we've, we've got a really, you know, have have data before deciding to do a combination in any kind of scale or else would you know we're going to be going down a lot of false leads. All right. Well, you know, we've had a lot of callers who want to join us because obviously cancer is a huge issue that does have an impact on so many people's lives. You're listening to our to Jim Allison. He was awarded the two, the two thousand eighteen Nobel prize in physiology or medicine for his work in cancer immunotherapy, he shares that a word of the tussock Honjo of Kyoto University, and you're also hearing from Monica Burton Yolly. She's president of the American society for Clinical Oncology. Chief of the division of surgical oncology at danafarber, Brigham and women's hospital cancer center. So we've got a couple of the top researchers in cancer with us this hour..
"judah folkman" Discussed on From Scratch
"I really enjoyed that kind of stuff when i was a little boy and even like with the chemistry shout i remember mixing different chemicals together and watching the solutions change color which is magic but also it was a chemical reaction going on that caused that but i still i didn't never thought about inventing it i just thought it was it was fun you said that you that you fell into what you're doing accidents or was it was it more mindful while i think it's somewhat accidental i mean you know i certainly had no grand plan ever i think the big thing that changed it for me in terms of what i ended up doing was what my post doctoral work after i graduated from mit when i went to work for judah folkman and i was like probably one of the few chemical engineers in the world maybe the only one working in surgery lab and i started thinking about applying chemical engineering to medicine and that that was that certainly changed my life dr folkman compare aired research to driving at night can you describe that analogy yes that's that's very good doctor oakland said you know trying to solve the problem of angiogenesis or some of the other things would be kind of like driving at night you can only you can't see past where the headlights go but you can do the whole trip that way so in other words you don't know the answer when you're starting but you could make steps and those steps would eventually get you there what are some images that come to your mind when you think of your research you know what is this driving at night what about like crystallization you know how they have a formation of a crystal and it becomes like this whole network of crystals but that's my own jimmy that's significant i mean that that's an example i mean certainly one thing that actually we were involved in in fact we started a company on that too was a company called transform where one of the challenges actually when you make pharmaceuticals who's having a good shelf life because you don't wanna use a drug if drug after you make it as unstable.
"judah folkman" Discussed on From Scratch
"Some ideas for a chemistry curriculum to various education institutions hauer they received one of the things i did when i was a graduate student at mit as i helped start a school for poor kids and high school and i got involved in creating new chemistry curricula and so i remember writing letters answering different adds to different colleges to be an assistant professor that would be developing new chemistry curriculum but none of them wrote me back so the next thing i thought about since i wasn't doing so well finding good jobs finding any jobs where i could do chemistry education i thought about medicine so i wrote a lot to route lot of hospitals and medical schools and they they didn't write me back either but one day one of the people in the lab ours at said to me said bob there's a surgeon in boston named judah folkman and he said sometimes he hires unusual people he thought very highly dr folkman i won't say what he thought about mick but i wrote to dr folkman and he was kind enough to offer me a job and it was your research with dr faulk men that had a seminal impact on what you're doing today to some degree what was it specifically that you were working on so dr folkman had a theory that if you could stop blood vessels from growing in the body that that might be a new way to stop cancer someday a new way to treat cancer someday but it was a theory and actually a lot of people didn't agree with that the and and what he asked me to do is to see if i could isolate what would become the first inhibitor of of angiogenesis the first inhibitor of blood vessel growth so that was how that's how i got started if you could stop the growth of blood vessels you could stop the growth of tumors developing further is that correct.
"judah folkman" Discussed on From Scratch
"The myself i i just don't want to do that i just seemed to me you know that i could do things that i could do with my life that i thought may be could help people and would be more important at least to me so uh so i started looking for others other ideas about what i could do now you send some ideas for a chemistry curriculum to various an education institutions how are they received one of the things i did when i was a graduate student at mit is i helped start the school for poor kids and a high school and i got involved in creating new chemistry curricula and so i remember writing letters answering different as two different colleges uh to be an assistant professor and that would be developing new chemistry curricula but none of them wrote me back so the next thing i thought about since i wasn't doing so well finding good jobs or finding any jobs were i could do chemistry education i thought about medicine so i wrote a lot to route lot of hospitals and medical schools and they they didn't write me back either but one day ah one of the people in the lab whereas out said to me said bob there's the surgeon in boston name judah folkman and he said sometimes he hires unusual people he he thought very highly dr focus on i won't say what he thought about me but i wrote to dr falkland and he was kind enough to offer me a job and it with your research rig dr falkman that had a seminal impact on i what you're doing today to some degree what was it specifically that you are working on so dr volkmann had a theory that if you could stop blood vessels from growing in the body that that might be a new way to stop cancer someday a new way to treat cancer someday but it was a theory and actually a lot of people didn't agree with it theory and and what he asked me to do is to see if i could isolate what would become the first inhibitor of of angiogenesis first inhibitor of blood vessel growth so that was doubt that's how i got started if you could stop the growth of blood vessels you could stop.
"judah folkman" Discussed on People's Pharmacy
"Take whatever appropriate actions might be appropriate in that situation i'll just also mentioned there is a a treatment that involves injection in the eye for people with the wet form of macular degeneration and that's like a miracle it has restored site for many people who have just started to develop these abnormal blood vessels so detecting the blood vessels early and treating them with this treatment to make them go away is crucial and if we're able to do that then presumably there is less worry about taking aspirin now dr mcdonnell you mentioned a miracle and in fact these anti ngo genesis drugs have really changed the face of macular degeneration because there was a time when there wasn't much of anything that could be done maybe may be some laser treatment but but these drugs really are making a difference but there's a lot of controversy over the cost and i wonder if you could give us some insight where we stand on the two primary drugs and how people can afford this kind of approach and where the world of ophthalmology that you swim in has evolved in terms of actual treatment these some medications initially the anti veg fa gents were uh first develop as a way to treat cancer the belief was that if you could stop blood vessels from growing into tumors in feeding the tumors than the tumors could grow and that was the theory of dr judah folkman up at the boston children's hospital and he was right and he uh did most of that pioneering work to figure out how to stop tumorous and cancers from growing uh he knew about the i problem one of my professor said had worked with him on that but he was primarily interested in blood vessels to treat people with cancer it turned out that the first one that he that was developed a drug called a vast and uh was tried in people with microgeneration and uh ophthalmologists were stunned by the results it worked dramatically.
"judah folkman" Discussed on What It Takes
"And they didn't write me back either it wasn't normal at the time this was in the 1970s for a hospital to take an engineer into its ranks but one day someone in his lab told him he should think about writing to an unusual surgeon named judah folkman at harvard folkman was a visionary sort and sometimes he hired people who didn't fit the mold so as to how when i went so so i've thought i was actually the only engineer in boston children's hospital a and i began working on to projects that were actually related one deceive we could actually discover the first substance that could stop cancer blood vessels from growing and hopefully than stop cancer growth and to to develop plastic systems polymer systems that could slowly release these and other large molecules for a long time so that we could test uh the these substances now before i started working on this problem no one had been able to develop ways to continuously release these substances for a long time from bio compatible powers and in fact if you look in the scientific literature they said actually it's impossible to do that some possible to release these molecules in fact really the only thing i'd going for me is is i haven't read that literature and so i i actually spent about two years working on the project and actually found over two hundred different ways to get it to not work but finally i made a discovery that i could modify certain types of plastics and get them to release these molecules over a long time and then we use these substances to create bio essays that enabled us to discover the first substances that stop cancer blood vessels and to help stop cancer just as an aside i should say that it took twenty eight years this is sometimes how it works in medicine from our earliest paper and science in this area until the fda approved the first a blood vessel inhibitor if you can't exactly found the signs here don't worry the important takeaway is that what robert langer discovered was a way to put material into a tumor that releases a consistent flow of medicine over a long period of time.