4 Episode results for "Journal Of The American Academy Of Dermatology"
Biologics: when to start them and when to stop.
"Hi, welcome to German lugs. I'm Dr Kerry Purdie. I'm Deborah tala gist that works in Halifax time community part time academic and you hear from me every time. As residents you don't always get a chance to hear from dermatologist outside of your center. And you don't always get a chance to get information about topics that may be aren't as readily available in your center. And so this podcast is designed to try to change some of that. Joining me on this episode, Dr Perry great wall from Edmonton Alberta. He does predominantly dermatology. Practice in a community office. He's involved in a lot of clinical trials. And if you've been at any of the big conferences over the past couple of years, you've probably seen them talk. So thanks so much for joining me. Oh, it's a real pleasure to be here. And thanks so much for having me on. So when I was thinking about topics that we could cover one of the things that comes up frequently at least at my center is Howdy started biologic and thinking about some of the finesse around what you do for investigations. What kind of patients you consider putting on biological or who maybe don't? And so I thought we could talk about some of that stuff. I remember back. So we were residents at the same time, you know, different ends of the country. But I know we wrote our exam the same year. And I feel like we were kinda right at that burning edge of biologics were first becoming available for for psoriasis. And for all of our skin conditions. And so when I feel like when I was a resident I didn't have a whole lot of grasp about all these different nuances, and I've had to learn a lot of that since getting into practice. I you're probably the same. But first before we talk about specifics. Do you have any resources that you would recommend to the residents in terms of thinki- abo- biologics are just a basic place for them to look about information about starting biologics? Yeah. No. It's like you said, I think we came through at a time when there's a lot of transition and dermatology. I remember very clearly back when we were going through even at that time we had some professors who are willing to start by. Logics others who thought it was too new and the required hesitant. But I think as years of past we've come to realize like how much of a value. They are to us in our patients in terms of resources. I think there's multiple sources out there. I know a lot of the textbooks now with below neon Wolverton focus heavily on biologics. There's various guidelines out through the journal of the American Academy of dermatology as well that has a great sort of series on biologics, and what to do and how to sort of start them in what things to monitor. And I think peers are great too. I think especially when you look at conferences advisory meetings different events that are held whether they're national or international. I think you pick up a lot of knowledge just from the people around you. I agree with that. And I still from time to time come across colleagues that are a little bit hesitant to start biologics. And so one of the things I want to make sure that residents get information and get proper information, and these aren't really big bad scary drugs. So I one of the things that they wanted to know is and I'm going to reword their question a little bit. But if you're thinking about a patient that's going to be going on biologics. What do you think about in terms of baseline workup? What do you do right from the outset? And at what point joy? During that interact with the patient. Do you do that that workup? So for example, if you see a patient new console coming into your office thirty percent body surface area of psoriasis. What's your how do you kind of approach that patient? What do you do? Well, it's like you said, I mean, we kinda take a multi modal approach. So I we want to get an idea of psoriasis. How long they've had it. A Comber bid is very important as well in previous therapies in terms of what kind of workup do again. It's like you said if they have quite severe psoriasis, you might know moving down in the future that you're going to have to put them on some sort of biological therapy. So essentially will do baseline blood work so blood counts liver function tests, kidney function tests, like creatine and possibly GFR. If I know I'm going to put them on immunosuppressive down the road. Again. I might start doing chest x rays or TB tests. Some of the biologic companies now. Or even offering Quanta fear on tests or setting up those things on your behalf, which is making it easier and easier for us all the time. And then you might want to look at other Serology as well. So definitely wanna check perhaps hepatitis B potatoes. See in my practice and at varies from location to location. I usually check for HIV as well. But again, it's interesting because a lot of these tests are fairly standard. But again, there's no one specific guideline that people have to follow. But that's essentially what I would do for kind of a workup before putting them on systemic therapy or possibly biologic therapy. And so just just to confirm. So you would think about that before you start them on any systemic maybe adding in that TB test or the hepatitis Serology. I think that sometimes people only do the blood work that's related to say, the cyclosporin or the method trek safe they're going to start, and they don't, and then you're sort of putting in more delay when you eventually go to a biologic. So I know for me, I will often. Do the test right at the outset. So I have it. And it sounds like you would often do that as well. Yeah. I think if they're definitely heading down that, but probably do it in advance. If it someone with a BSA or Patsy score of where they might not qualify for biologics or of from the outset demo. No that they might want to go down that route. Then perhaps I might not do those testings. But she's you know, I mean, there are other issues with false positive TB tests and things like that as well. So I wouldn't say I do it for every case. But again, if it's very severe, and I kind of have that idea that they're going to probably progress to needing something more advanced than like, you said it's just saves everybody time and effort to then everything is kind of lined up ready to go do you routinely. Do a chest. X Ray or do you find that you only do it in people where you may have a concern about an underlying Grady little bit is condition or maybe if they're a longtime smoker that they could have a baseline chest. X Ray to rule out any malignancy. When do you do you routinely? Do chest x Ray or do you just do it again in? Clinical context, and for me personally, again, I routinely do it again. Sometimes you get these equivocal TB skin tests, you know, someone might have a six or seven millimeter tests, and then you go, well, should I do something or not then you look at other risk factors to see whether if it's a positive or not for me in that context. There's not a lot of risk factors in a negative chest x-ray, then it just makes me more comfortable start therapy at that point in time. So again, I'd just like to pre-empt things rather than trying to track down the patient and reorder it all just give them all the forms right at the outset and get them to do it. Now, one of the questions the residents wanted to know was about stran-, Deloitte ease. And I know we've all all all here. Scott Welch talk about something. I'll be in Toronto all be all of a sudden panicked that I'm not checking all these patients for stronger ladies. And then I remember that I live in Halifax, and that the risk loads are most beaches is pretty low in what context would you consider doing these baseline Serology or do you ever do that? Well, it's like you said, we're an Oprah to vote minus forty right now with wind chill. I don't think strong Loyd will ever survive here. So it's like you said you hear it on of the periphery from certain physicians and certain clinical context me personally. I've never ordered the test. I don't think there's any real reason to especially for people that sort of live here. I mean, maybe if you're from tropical or sub tropical nation where there's a higher prevalence perhaps. But again, I've never had to order it myself or never seen any cases of that. So I routinely do not order it. Okay. Good enough in terms of thinking about these patients that I mean, obviously when it comes to any systemic therapy every patient's different every patient's unique, but what type of general patient? Are you looking at for a biologic? And what I mean by that is, you know, you're looking at the BSA or you're looking at the Pez e your maybe one of those people, and you probably are that can kind of think about Apache score in your mind when you're seeing a patient, but what are the general criteria with which you're looking at a patient going? This is going to be a biologic patient. Well, it's like you said, I think it's difficult. I mean, there's no one archetype of patient that walks in that you might think needs a biologic. Like, you said, I mean, definitely you have to consider as Ian BSA and DO Q, I scores essentially because you know, you need certain criteria to get them covered for biologics anyway. But I think a lot boils down to the patient as well. I mean, you get these patients with, you know, quite severe disease whether it's rise his or attic arthritis. Remember, I have one patient to I've been trying for years to get onto biologic, and he's got really bad spawned lower throw at the psoriasis. Basically, his neck is fused can't even really turn or move or shoulder check or anything like that. And despite me, telling them the benefits of these treatments. He's just very resistant and doesn't want to do it. And then you get the flip side. He get someone coming in with two spots saying, oh, I saw this commercial for drug X. And I want to go on it today, and you go, well, it doesn't really work like that the drugs cost X amount. And you gotta take my trek sate phototherapy and different criteria in different provinces. So again, I think it's a little bit difficult. How about one specific? Patient in mind. But I think again like you said if they have like, you know, Pasni of ten BSA of ten DO Q is scores of ten or higher. If they're quite psychosocial bothered by it, if they're developing Comber biddies, I think those are all sort of the type of patient that you're going to see put on biologic. Yeah. I really do love it. When a patient comes in with a little sweaty piece of paper with like, you know, a Humira or Tulse written on it. And then they've got one percent body surface. Oh, yeah. I think managing expectations. Also, one of the things that I always talk to the resin vote. And I think sometimes they forget they get bogged down in the PSA or the ten percent. And so for special sites as well. I'm sure you have a a number of patients in your practice. But you know, I certainly have people have vulgar psoriasis that I have on a biologic or limited scalp with face rises on a biologic. Do you have a number of those patients as well? I guess I never want to forget about biologic. You're one hundred percent, right. I mean, that's a great point. And that's why you can't just strictly go on BSA or Pasi scores. I mean, you know, some of the most severe patients who have a DO coup score of thirty of severe pummeled plunger genital or scalps rises. So these special sites that we talk about on again, a lot of companies are willing to sort of. Finance or pay for these medications. Even if they don't meet that certain threshold, so yeah, I too have lots of patients that benefit from these treatments. So yeah, I think you're right. You definitely can't forget about that sort of group as well. And I think that's a really good point. And we'll come back to it just in terms of coverage. But and I know everything varies from province province, but I will loop back to that. I know one of the things that I found talented starting practice and even still sometimes is calculating Apache or calculating Patsy adequately. Do you have any special tips do use an online module? How do you typically do Patsy in your practice? I think relig- just doing it again and again and again ad nauseam. I mean for us doing clinical trials, I mean, sometimes I'm doing like six seven eight has he scores day. And so again, just doing it again. And again, you just get faster and faster. And then you get pretty good at eyeballing and saying, okay, you know, thirty percent here. Twenty percent here, you know, readiness thickness scale. So for me, it's actually. It's just the memorization and doing it again. And again that kind of makes it faster actually, find it. A bit slower to like us an online tool log into a computer set it up and do it that way. I just do it on papers or quickly. And then just do the math as fast as they can. That's I'm probably terrible at math. So I'm a cheater us petty. When when my phone out of able it's very paid math can be challenging agree with that. That's why went into German-Polish. I have a calculator in every room in terms of, you know, I don't think that it's really a good use of time to talk about how you choose which biologic for which patient because I think there's so many factors that are involved there. But in terms of thinking about starting a patient on a biologic, let's say you already have them on a systemic treatment. So they're on methotrexate or they're on cyclosporin. How do you transition them over to a biologic? Would you do a wash? Oh, do you overlap? What your general practice for an average patient in that regard? So again, I almost never wash anyone out. I mean, we have lots of studies from psoriasis, and you know, other conditions as well like rheumatoid and other diseases like Krones where you have a lot of concomitant use of systemic therapy and biologic therapy. So definitely if they're on things like methotrexate. I mean, I'm okay to basically say one day stop method Trexi applying for biologic, and if the get covered in a week they can start. Whenever they get covered for it. And even if it took them both together and fine with it as per cycle. Sporran? I probably wouldn't want to overlap them for too long. So I would probably you'll comfortable starting them at the same time. But at some point I'd probably want to stop the cyclist born and just keep them on the biologic by itself. Okay. And I guess that would answer my next question. Which would be do you have a lot of patients that are concomitantly taking systemic therapy. Like methotrexate combined with your biologic for patients. Yeah. More of a Rheumatology price. Yeah. I think you're right. I mean when we have more of like RA or sometimes PSA than we're looking at concomitant therapy. But I mean for us dermatology were lucky. Most of our big pivotal studies and trials everything we essentially do as monotherapy. So my personal practice again is to try to keep them on one agent. And I think for dermatology patients it's a bit different. Because you know, we're always telling them like the bad sides of systemic therapy. All the side. Effects? They could get all the problems are going to run into. And so then I think it's a little harder for us to justify saying. Well, no, we want you to stay on that as well. I think the way it's sorta positioned in. I think it's the same for a lot of germs as we say. Well, if this doesn't work, then we'll switch you biologic therapy. So I think that's basically what I end up doing. I think most people follow the same practice. I think that's a really good point. And I think from two I've heard two perspectives on this overtime as well. In one of them is thinking about the fact that some of these drugs, we've had around forever do work. So I try not to forget about the fact that occasionally if I put a patient on methotrexate is going to be effective, and that's all they're going to need. I also think about the cost effectiveness, and so, you know, Stewart's of the whatever whatever you wanna call it. But you know, the financial side of medicine probably is worth a try. So I I like to word it that way to kind of say, we're gonna try you. And then if this doesn't work, then we'll consider these other medications rather than it seeming like ones this terrible side effect late in. Pill from the medieval times and one's us. Wonderful new medication. So I think that's really important point. No, I think that's critical to because again, you're gonna have a lot of patients on methotrexate. And I mean methotrexate does work whether you're talking about s- rises or other conditions like a topic dermatitis. So I've thought several people on very comfortably for years. And even if you bring up the topic of biologics, they'll say, no, I'm happy, I'm doing well. Everything is going good. There's no issues no side effects. And I mean, we know even potentially to some of these drugs can be remitted. So even in the last six months, I had a couple of ladies out on methotrexate for about a year year and a half who stopped their drug and still doing fine, six months year leaders of clear, and I've other people even in their twenties and thirties been on methotrexate for quite some time and very happy. So thank you right to. I mean, it's pretty, you know, all this inundation with all these fancy biologics and. All these advisory meetings and everything else like that. But drugs like methotrexate treatments. Like photo therapy. There's still a huge workforce or sorry. Where course of treatment that we're doing here. So yeah, I'm pretty happy with those treatments as long as they're working. Well, yeah agree. I mean, I made the mistake of having a lady on methotrexate by when my colleagues for twelve or fourteen years and her liver enzymes or searched right on the upper limit of normal. So I got a bit nervous and convince her to switch, and I gotta tell you. She does not have as good control. And she blames me rightfully, but that's a rarity. But I think it does happen. So in any event thinking about that when you have a patient on a biologic, again, not the specifics of which by logic. It is but say they're going along at what point would you typically see them for first? Visit after you start them three months. Six months, twelve months. What would be your average time to see that patient back? Yeah. So if it's an issue biologic, I think almost it's a bit dictated by insurance or almost. Mandated to him back in three months because you have to score their skin again. So I'd say for everybody. Yes. In three months. I'm seeing them back. And then it really depends. I mean, you have some patients that liked to see his for example for Stella injections. So they will basically come every three months on the dot basically just to get through injections, and it's a quick high. And then, you know, you've got your other ones that could be on any drug, whether it's bril- humorous delauro toll to go sentence whatever and they'll just come in once a year again for the Newell or their paperwork. So I think the only trouble we run into when people forget that. The renewal is coming up, and then we're trying to scramble to get them into clinic happens more often than trying to track down. But I guess I really leave it up to the patient like I'll definitely see them once a year. But if they want injections with us, we'll see them more frequently. Okay, I wanted to touch on the idea of switch or esscalation of dose or guess what? To dose optimization. So again, not to pick on a drug, but say a patient on still era. They're on their one hundred kilos ninety milligrams q twelve. At what period of time. Do you make that decision? Like, hey, don't know if it's going to work, and then would you consistently plan to does optimize patient or bump decrease the frequency or would you at that point switch because we have so many options. I guess what's your what are your thoughts on switch versus dose optimization again. Generally, speaking, not for specific patient for sure. I think this concepts been talked about a little bit. And I've heard this kind of saying before of what we call squeeze the lemon. So basically that means you want to try to maximize whatever therapy. Somebody's on whether they're on methotrexate or biologic my preference, especially if they're not having any adverse events is to try to maximize that dosage and sort of push it as much as you can and you can maximize it in one of two ways. So people are not really getting a great initial response, and they're still have residual plots when you're seeing them then I'll try to increase the dosage that they're receiving if they're getting a good response. But then let's say diseases coming back a little bit earlier, like, tear example. So you're on you're doing ninety milligrams. But you know, you can only last ten weeks in its back. So then I'll just shorten the interval. And so we've done a lot of different things for people. I mean, you know, we have some patients on cults eighty milligrams every two weeks, we've got some patients on still. Era. Ninety milligrams every six to eight weeks, so you can really kind of play around with the dosing quite a bit. And then, you know, at the point you get to where you're increasing dosages and decreasing intervals, and it's not working at all. Then at that point ya'll consider switching to something else. Some patients again, you might consider adding on therapy as well. So if they got to residual plots, you cannot on ends or you can do stirred injections, maybe they wanna come back into a cycle phototherapy for two or three months. So that's still fine. But if really you're not getting any kind of response at all which them. And in that same regard thinking about when we were going from a systemic to a biologic if you're switching from biologic biologic, would you tend to just give the next give the new injection at the same time? They would normally get their other injections. So if you were going to like, let's say you're switching from still era two or so you're searching from us to Kenya. Mab to gazelle cab instead of their next Delara injection, you'd give them their Trump fi injection is that how you would do it or do you do a washout for biologic switches again. Yeah. No. I just follow that mandate the problem with some of these longer acting biologics. I mean, they have really long half-lives. Right. So if you're really waiting to do a proper washout, I mean patients could be waiting for weeks or months, and I sort of feel like, you know, if they're flaring up, and it's not really working all that well for their disease. It probably aren't having you know, a tremendous amount of drug in their system. Anyway, doing anything important. So I'm pretty happy to just give them their new biologic, essentially. When old biologic was due. Great. This is a question that I get a lot from patients directly. And I'm sure that you get it too. But you start them on one of these medications, and they go. Okay. Great. Now. How long do I need to be on it like six months year? What do you do in terms of the expectation for the patient? Do you tell them at the set you're going to be on this forever? Do you ever consider a drug holiday? Do you generally try to taper off of it? Or do you just gonna go? Here you go. You're good going to be on this for the rest of your life. It's nicholson. Yeah. I mean, we know psoriasis is a lifelong disease for many people. I mean, it's it's tough to break. A patient's heart right off the bat and say, well, you're stuck with it. This is how it is forever. So I try to give them a little bit of hope if I can and end it is true. I mean, there are studies now showing whether it's with again methotrexate or photo or biologics that people go into remission. So I tell them kind of both ends of the story as you know, there are people that. Have pretty bad surprises. They have at their whole life. And you know, some people have to be on these treatments for years, potentially. And then I do tell them on the flip side there are people who get better. And we see them in clinic all the time as well. So essentially giving them a little bit of hope that. Yeah. The disease could remit, and if it does and at some point they can try to go off the biologic if they want to and I guess the way that I think about it, and this is completely made up in my own head. So I'm going to be curious to see what you do. But if I do have a patient. It's really adamant that they wanna stop or they believe that they're in a remission. What I will tend to do is just extend out there interval between injections, and then see if they're able to get to a certain amount of time. Then stop rather than just sort of coal Turkey stop. But what would your practice be typically, I felt the same thing. I call it the carry permanent. Oh, it's catching on fans. We're gonna we're gonna start. No, I do the same thing. Like, I never tell people to just kind of stopped goal Turkey. Just like you said, I tell them to sort of draw out a little bit. And I do that for a couple reasons like you said, you get a better handle on if they're actually kinda going into remission, but the other thing is just with coverage. I mean, you never want to tell whoever's covering their drug that they don't need it anymore, and they kind of cut off their coverage or lose it. So I'll tell them to and we'll work with them and getting touch with their like, whatever patient support program and say, well, we want to try to stretch out the interval a bit benefit flares. We bring it back. And if it stays pretty good than we just keep it at that. And then like you said if they're doing great than you could give them a break at some point. Okay. Speaking of stopping things cold Turkey. I think this is probably a good time to go to our first question. The world headquarters of the Durham logs podcast, high Dermot, my name is Noel wrong. And I am a dermatology residents as university in regards to buy Rajic's. Are there any surgery that patients will need to have their by logic health for thanks for that question Perry? Although this would not typically be our practice. The thing that I think a lot of us run into is what happens when your friendly neighborhood orthopedic surgeon stops the medication coal Turkey. So I'm married to a surgeon. I feel like in some ways distant little bit. But in general, I find that surgeons are super nervous about biologics. They've really blown the risk of infection out of proportion. Do you try to preempt that if you know that patients going to have a surgery have you had any success in convincing searches that they should keep the patient on the medication? I have to admit I haven't had a lot of success. Yes, I try. But you know, how do you manage that whole Perry surgical biologic conundrum if you will? What's like, you said surgeons are not easy to convince of anything. I mean, they're always writing, you know. Yeah. I know they're always right. I mean, the problem is it's like a duality your with stuck between a rock and a hard place on one hand, they're like, well, we won't operate if they have fluorosis on there like that's going to cause an infection. So you have a real difficult time convincing them that. It's not going to the other hand they won't operate. If you give them a treatment to fix rices. Anyways, you're always kinda stuck between the two options. So for me personally. And I'm sure like you said for you as well. I mean, I don't think they confer tremendously high risk of infections like with surgery, especially if they're more minor kind of local procedures and things like that. And I think that does also been shown in other diseases like Krones colitis for just keep them on their treatments. If they have to do pretty invasive or sections or surgeries and things like that. So again, my practice generally is it's pretty something. Minor local than just kind of stay on treatment. If the bit more invasive than sometimes, I'll get them to try to plan to do the surgery around the next time their biological injection was due and then basically weighed about a week or so or much time it takes for them to heal up. And then when they're kind of on the mend then basically just resumed the biologic. So essentially, you're giving them like maybe a week week and a half break in between. Okay. Yeah. That seems pretty reasonable. And like, you said there were certain surgeries, or maybe, you know, obviously, like an emergency surgery. This is a moot point. But looking at specific types of surgery where you might consider would that be more of like a major Donald surgery? Oral surgery or are there certain looking at the data. I think there's certain types of surgery that are meant to be a little bit more likely to result in an infection. Yeah. No, exactly. I mean, if it's more high risk like mucosal surfaces, or let's say they've had like Endo card Itis or a heart valve or something like that. Or they have a higher risk of infection than. Yeah. You get a little more nervous might be wanting to stop the drug a little more. But again, if it's something that's a bit more, minor, local, they're pretty healthy, otherwise, and they're pretty clean incisions. And I'm okay with it. The problem is when you look at the literature often, they'll suggest stopping these drugs for like three to four to five half lives. And again, you know, if you've run into these drugs that people take that have monthly or every three monthly dosing. I mean, you'd be off of it for such a long time before you could do anything. So I think practicality kind of comes into it as well. So I think you just kinda have to work with the patient and try your best work with the surgeon as much as willing. Listen to you. And then try to get the patient the best outcome right thinking about the other hot topic or hot button issue contentious area around biologics pregnancy. And that brings us to our next question. Hi, my name is the harbor on me. And I am a democ- Haji resident at the university of Toronto. I have a question about how do you start a biologic in a woman who wants to get pregnant Pesident or is best eating? Thanks for her. Okay. Let's look at each of those scenarios separately. So part one what if your patient isn't pregnant, but planning to get pregnant would advise them part partout, what if your patient becomes pregnant when they're on the biologic. What do you do? And then what about post pregnancy in the the breastfeeding realm, what do you advise patients of? So maybe stuck with the first bit. I so let's say you have a young, you know, thirty year old woman looking at maybe getting pregnant in the next one to two years, but has really severe psoriasis that you think needs a biologic how do you broach? That subject or how do you? I guess answer her questions about safety in pregnancy. I just tell them don't get pregnant ever ever. Said it makes my life too. Sure that goes over super well. Yeah. It goes over really well. To be honest with you. Yeah. I mean, it's a big issue. I mean, a lot of our patients are gonna be women of childbearing years, and you really have to take that into context if you're talking about really any treatments doing whether it's systemic methotrexate cyclosporine or biologics. So for me, I mean, I consider phototherapy fairly safe. So if a patient wants to get treated, and they're really nervous about biologics injectables, and they've read this on the internet or read that and they're very nervous. I'm okay to maybe stop their biologic and put them onto phototherapy and topical while they're pregnant and then to resume afterwards, if they want to personally, however, though, I feel most biologics, and we're getting more and more data all the time or fairly safe in pregnancy, especially up to like my personal feelings up to second trimester. So I'm more than willing to keep patients on it through trimester. Again, you might wanna consider stop. Ping, just so they don't have immunosuppressive so vaccines and things like that for the infants will take. But I'm okay, leaving them on up to second trimester. If they're okay with it as well. And now, I mean, we're a little bit lucky over the last few months cert-, Eliza mob or Simms has entered the market as well for we can prescribe that now for psoriasis. And so with its sort of unique peg elated structure, we know what has almost no capacity to pass through the placenta or pass into breast milk either. So I think moving forward again, I've been pretty comfortable up to this point with most biologics. But again, I might lean a little bit towards that one as well. Especially in women who might be actively trying to get pregnant at some point in time. It's really good point. And you know, I often borough from our colleagues GI and know that that risk of Crohn's flare during pregnancy tends to be worse than. Being on these medications during pregnancy. So there's registry data from that side of things. But I think it is something that sometimes a little bit different when we're talking about pure cutaneous arises, so. I like that. So in terms of the breastfeeding as any other. Advice that you give patients surrounding breastfeeding. If you're not thinking or they're not able to be on a medication like Cinzia. Yes. So again, I mean, we know even from previous data with other drugs like a town or sept- and things like that. There's very little transfer into breast milk. So again, if they want to resume right after I'm fine with that. If they wanted to take a little bit of time and do like, you know, topical therapies, phototherapy, whatever until they're finished breastfeeding. I'm okay with that too. I think the biggest issue just working with the patient because you get the two types. He get the ones that are really worried about flare ups that want to keep their disease under control as much as possible. And then you get the other ones that are just really worried about the pregnancy in general or breastfeeding. So I'll kind of give them all the information and facts, and then basically just kind of try to do whatever makes them happy at the end of the day or you have the people like me who were so sick when they were pregnant that they would take any amount of Zo Fran that any doctor would give them at any given time. So there's always. Well. Okay. Let's take one last resident question. Mine Sabrina, and I have a dermatology at the university of Calgary. I question that starting biologic therapy. So see my patient has laying he'd be, but I would like to start a biologic how long do we have to wait before safely starting biologic? Thanks brenna. And I guess I would add to that. What patients do you refer to ide- to be seen prior to initiating biologic? So again, I mean if there's any risk of TV relate and TB with like a chest x Ray positive quantity on or positive skin tests always refer to are like TB clinic. And then basically, they'll do there's s Mentz more often than not they'll start them onto Burkey Laos's therapy, which will typically loss for about nine months. Give or take. Firm firm guidelines as to when you should start biologic therapy. Talking to our colleagues, whether they're driven tall GIS or infectious disease experts. I mean, mostly they think the consensus is you can start after about two to three months of late into burqas therapy. So that's my practice just to make sure they've had two to three months of therapy. And then start biologic and to that point as well in terms of selecting biologics again, if you're worried about Burkey Laos's, let's say you work with a population where it's a bit more endemic, or let's say you're patient travels quite a bit overseas again to more endemic areas, my personal preference with might be to lean more towards an seventeen inhibitor believe as to this date. There's really been no reported cases of reactivation of tuberculosis. And so I think personally I would lean more towards that. If I had to start on something anyway. So I think that one of the challenges now that we have so many drugs on the market. And so many biologic options is deciding what to choose when and again. We've discussed as we've touched on it. There's lots of factors patient Comber biddies half-life to the have psoriasis psoriatic arthritis. Do they have IB D? And of course, you know, all those things have to be taken into consideration individual basis. But I guess I'm looking on a pick your brain a little bit about let's say you have a patient that comes in. They've got severe psoriasis. They've also got oriented arthritis. It's gonna be a while before they see a rheumatologist, so the choices yours what kind of what class of medication would you tend to start within that type of patient? So again, I think I'd probably still favor NFL agents rile seventeen agents, personally, I think they still have the best data or rightous and PSA. So those are probably the ones I favor the twelve twenty three data. I mean, it was okay wasn't as robust, and I think the I'll twenty three's are still a bit of an involving story. I don't think we've got the full picture yet. Whether or not they will be as affective. So those are probably the two categories that still stick with for those patients if you're looking at a person that had maybe Palmer and planters riotous pustules risis, I tend to start with a retinoids, but then moving onto a biologic. What would you have? Would you have a preference in that category? Again, I think he got really good robust data on all the categories. So the TANF style seventeen twelve twenty three's and I'll twenty three's as well. So I think probably just again if you're focusing more on skin clearance. I'd probably stick with twenty three's and I'll seventeens, but like I said TANF's have good data as well. So as long as a patient qualified, it'd be pretty happy to start them on any of those treatments. What about genitals risis? Sometimes I think patients have severe dental psoriasis. When it comes up, then you want to treat them with on the it's going to be affective and fast. What would be your choice genital psoriasis? Yeah. I think my go-to would have to be taught for that. One. I give them credit for doing a lot of the studies for that region. Just because it's something that we just don't talk about much, and unfortunately patients, you're pretty self conscious. Don't really bring it up to us very much either. So for me personally seeing that data of for that specific area. I think I would lean more towards Tulse. Okay. And then one of the other things I often think about or I think now that we have a lot of choices. Maybe it's a little bit different. But if you had a patient that was say just for lack of advocacy failing in T F or failing in an aisle. Seventeen. Would you have a tendency to switch with in class or out of class in that type of patient? Yeah. Well, I think nowadays at probably switch out of class. I think dating ourselves a little bit. If you look back a few years ago, we didn't have a lot of choices. So we were pretty stuck, you know, if he didn't work with one if you didn't have many choices you have to go to another TANF and then find these, oh, maybe I can switch him to still era because that was new at the time as well. But now with all these new agents we have new new I'll seventeen twenty three's. I think with the choices you have. Plus with all the great data. You have of the studies done with switching between classes. I think now it's just so much easier to switch into different class. If you if you just want a better bang for your buck, a better chance of capturing response fair enough. I think I look back at some of the patients that I started with way back when I started practice and any look through their chart notes. And it's like a Tanner septa Tanner said at mad at a let me MAB used to Kenny Kenny MAB and other gazelle gazelle, Kevin. So it's just. Interesting to see that in some of those patients along the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly known system. It's still interesting in general. I still think of myself, you know, as a fresh term sometimes I really realize I'm not anymore. So when you when you stop getting invited to this or a new in practice stuff, you realize you're a little bit over the hill. Although I had a patient today. I saw after three years, and he's like you look so young. And I was like I'll take the compliment similarly had a patient. Go. Are you enough to be a doctor, and I'm like, okay bless your heart. Go get your eyes checked and moving along. So thinking about the way back to those days when we first started practice. Do you have any real tips or or things that you would send if you could tell yourself starting practice or things that you wish you knew or a couple of top hits on biologic or a practice. Biologics? What would be your things to pass on? Like, what are your paroles words of wisdom? Well, I guess there's a few things number one. It's like you said getting comfortable with paperwork. I mean, when you're a resident you're not studying people were figuring out how to Philo forms. I mean, you're trying to learn about biologics and half-lives side effects and things like that. But really when you get into practice a lot of that stuff falls by the wayside. You gotta know which forms to Philo what the scoring criteria is what agents they have to fail. So I think getting really familiar with that and all the scoring systems like I mentioned earlier like doing Patsy scores again, and again, and again, so becomes like second nature and very quickly. I think the other important thing is having like a good team. I know at varies from province to province in terms of how much nursing stuff or support or things people have. But I would say for me, I'm pretty lucky. You know, the clinic I joined has a pretty good team really good system of doing paperwork and keeping things in track and getting people on biologics. And that's also something we don't really learn. About in residency in terms of hiring people and having you know, sort of systems in place to make things more efficient. So those are probably the two main things I would tell my younger self is. You know, make sure you know, how to founds pretty boring and sad. Not like, hey, these winning lotto numbers, but make sure you know, how to do paperwork hokum to the reality. If you're the sad sad reality. Well, listen period, just wanted to really thank you a lot genuine. Thank you for joining me on this podcast. And I think there's a lot of really good tidbits for the residents and in for myself as well, I'm writing down notes about Lia. So I I do wanna thank you very much for joining me and taking the time out of your busy schedule. And you know, I was also just thinking if we win ahead. We'd be the carry and Perry show. It'd be the we could carry better logs. Thanks as well. I think this is a great initiative, and I honestly kinda wish this was done for me as a resident. So if I was telling my younger self something else, I'd say, hey, listen to this podcast. There you go. Well, thanks again. Nice talking to you. Don't no problem. Yeah. Yeah. You too. You too. Touch Perry gray walls, dermatologist practicing in Edmonton Alberta. That's it for another episode of Dermot logs. Remember, if you have any questions you'd like to ask or if you have any ideas for future topics you'd like us to cover. Let us know. Call toll free at one eight seven seven Derm log or one eight seven seven three three seven six five six four under next up will be speaking Dr Sam Hanna on the topic of injectables, I'm Dr Kerry Purdy. Thanks so much for listening.
Most misleading beauty product claims - Episode 227
"Hi I'm Valerie and you're listening to the beauty brains. Welcome to the beauty. Brains show a real cosmetic chemists answering your questions and give you an insiders look at the cosmetics industry. Is this episode two hundred, twenty seven I've your host. Valerie George, and with me. Today is Perry Romanowski high. Perry low Valerie so good to be here great to see you. Good to see you on show. We're going to answer your questions about. How can you be sure you're getting via protection from your sunscreen? A question, that's very important to me right now by the way can essential oils be used as preservatives and wire as a laik acid products mostly found in gel form, plus we're going to cover some beauty, science news, but Perry. Why is your va protection so important to me right now? Well, it must have something to do with that slight redness icy coming through the computer screen. It's pretty bad, isn't it? Oh, my Gosh! Okay! Well. P skin-care contacted me pre cova few months ago and said Hey. We see that you are a cosmetic chemist. On the Internet, your co host of the beauty brains, and they offered me a complimentary skin peel alkyl aestheticians. So that's on. Yeah, so I took them up on their offer. I received a free skin peel from a local aestheticians in L.. A. And it was quite inexperienced experience so needless to say that my skin is right now really. Coming through the screen a little bit I have to say. It's peeling a whole lot If you guys follow me on my personal instagram, you'll see like making jokes all week. Just about you know me leaving skin flakes everywhere, and you know I drive a car with a very large windshield and It's very sunny in Los Angeles so I'm like. How do I provide extra protection on my skin? Because when you get heals, your skin is very sensitive. You need to be very cautious with sun exposure for quite a while, and so I've come up with like a few devices of how to protect my forehead and. Face while I'm driving home for work. So when did you get this done? So. The peel was done on Saturday and. I'M NOT GONNA lie it her. I was like. When is she going to be done? And she's like when you're faces frosted so. No the AESTHETICIANS I'm joking that she did a great job as she used a sensitive skin peel on me, because I am prone to Asia and other other stuff would end. She said it was a six percent. T C. Appeal by T, PCA, skincare and I know that you can't see a Lotta the results right now because I have so much dead skin flaking everywhere, but around my mouth. If you look very close, my skin is brand new and I'm going to be honest for while I was like this is terrible. My skin is itchy. You know when I was getting. It was like. Oh, my gosh, my face melting off, but this new skin that I see is wow, while while while. And if this is what just a little bit of my skin looks like, imagine what my whole face is going to look like in a couple of days, so everyone posted, but I'm very excited about this skin peel. We'll be sure to follow Valerie on her instagram for all the updates. And if you guys want skin peeling videos, I'll make some for you i. haven't done it yet, but I know some people are into that. Is it going to look like when a snake sheds its skin like the? Yeah we. at work, you know we're back in the lab. Someone came in my office and they were like what's over your floor and it was like. Well I. I think it's clear. Enough old pieces of me. I'm like guys will always know where I'm at because you'll find the skin trail. Anyway. Yeah I'm super excited and I thank you to pcs concurrent. We like take sponsorships and stuff I want justice. Close I get this factory, but I'm very excited about my well. That's very cool we'll. We'll take a look at the. We'll follow it over the time. I've never actually had a skin peel and integrate frankly. I'm not I'm not looking to do that. While we're going to get facials when you come to town next, right? We say manny petty or facials I, Dunno or know spray tanning. We're doing straight. Hey I. Do have some exciting news. That's going to happen to me tomorrow. What you know, how at the end of our show? There's always those cat meows, yeah! Well there is an explanation for that. I actually volunteer at a shelter. I go in once a week and I haven't been able to have a cat. I like cats but I haven't had one because my wife is allergic. But the shelter they shut down for the covert thing so I haven't been there in awhile, but the shelter they had some sort of outbreak of some feline virus, and so they needed to get a homes for all the cats that were in the colonies and so tomorrow I'm going to pick up a cat and we're going to be fostering for a couple of weeks so so cool. Is Is your wife going to be okay. She's allergic to cats, right? That's why you can't have one exactly. She's allergic, but we're going to keep the cat. You know kind of in the basement. Or isolate leaflets no. Isolate and you and the cat hanging off while she's all excited about it, she she is allergic to cats, but you know she can be exposed to some small accent, so this should be a lotta fun yet. Mister Cosmetic chemists loves cats. He's allergic. That's why we can't have any. So a half fine, send pictures. I I will do that certainly one other cool thing this week. Was I actually never realized you know we do? The show and people are a little bit about us. I actually never realized my own instagram audience I've never once introduced myself. I've always just like posting in leaving little tidbits about me and I know who is. Just cosmetic chemist. Well. First of all congratulations on that getting that plum instagram handle cosmetic chemist. I mean why. I'm a little jealous I. Signed up early in fact, I've actually seen a couple of other names. I was considering that were available. And I've noticed that other people have taken them. There's a real surge of cosmetic chemists on Instagram, which is great, some are legit. Many of them are not but anyway so I did a post about myself and You know because I've had a couple other people. I followed that and I'm like wow, I've actually learned a lot about them. And I thought that would be really cool for me to do and great feedback, and it's cool to be a lot of the people that follow me for the content I post and even learn about them there. Some people local in La, which was really cool to see yeah. Yeah I thought it was cool that a lot of people around you because you're work on the beauty braids. Yeah, it was great to see a lot of fans of the show. especially the one that said she agrees with me about vitamin C. unlike. You or Sorry I feel like Yeah Perry define show, but it's so much better when Valerie's on. A good report, you know if I did a solo show, people would be saying the same thing, so I'm sure not, but I was reading through some of the comments on there and one of the persons asked they said Hey. Why don't you have guests on the beauty? Brin show and I thought this was an interesting topic because we contacted daily two or three times a day. people saying I've got this great expert. They should be on your show, do you? You want them on your show and we never take guests and I thought it might be. We might let's just talk about. Why don't we take people? Guests are to be interviewed on the beauty. Brains 'cause there are most podcasts will have guests in. They'll do interviews. Why don't we yeah I? Think that's a great question. You know we. If you listen to a lot of our episodes, you'll see we kind of have like a formula and format that we use so. Yeah, the guessing never works, but there's a few reasons. I am actually personally I'm not against having a guest on the problem is. If you look at the guests that are on podcast. They almost always have something that they're trying to sell. And in the beauty world that's something to sell is almost always a product and I just have a very difficult time. Talking to somebody about their product when all I'm thinking his like yeah, I know you have that special ingredient in there, but isn't it? The Glycerin in the mineral oil that's making moisturizer work Mike and I don't want to have somebody on the show where I'm asking them uncomfortable questions, and trying to make them squirm and make them feel bad when all they WANNA do is publicize their product and so i. think it just Kinda works better if we're not having guests on the show. But I wouldn't be against it if we had some real expert dermatologists who who isn't trying to sell a product or something. Maybe they have a book. I'd be okay. Interviewing people who have books out, but I just have a real hard time interviewing guests who are trying to push product. Just it's hard for me. I don't know. How do you feel about it? Yeah I agree you know I, think part of what we do is about educating people. These experts can't come on and educate people, but we want to do it without an agenda. We really just want to empower you with knowledge and teach you, and if somebody were to come on and say you know, Hey, let me plug my business, and yes I am an expert, but my business and Blah. Blah Blah it. It kind of dilutes that message that we're trying to give you guys a little bit so. As he said Perry, I'm not adverse to. You. Know maybe a dermatologist coming on actually. There's one doctor Sandy Scott Nikki. She wrote a book called beyond, so she also has a podcast. She would be really cool to talk to you know, but honestly if she were selling a product to you guys like Hey. I also have this brand would be like hey. Let's not talk about the. Let's talk about you and your practice. Yeah so I should have listened to their podcast. It's it's pretty good Yeah, they haven't done an episode in awhile since the the virus. It's funny. I was thinking about them this morning. And then here we are talking about today. You're okay. Yeah! I do up there in Toronto. Right. Shall we go to the next segment? Recall Roundup. Lake. Gosh I love these I mean. Do I feel bad? That brand? Getting recalled sure I wish they weren't because you know. The recalls happen for a reason and unfortunately people get put in harm's way, but I'm really glad that we have the Internet to be able to effectively get these recall messages out. That's what I'm thankful for. Absolutely and this one is particularly important, because this is related to hand sanitizers that are contaminated with methanol. I do. How is methanol getting? Enhance senators. Okay well. Here's what happened. Okay, When this covert thing hit the fan. there just was not enough a hand sanitizer out in the marketplace, and so what happened? The FDA loosened the rules for hand sanitizers. You might not know this but hands. I mean you know it, but the audience might not do it hand sanitizers are classified as over the counter drugs in United States an OTC, and that means there is a specific formulation the active ingredients that you're allowed to use and the other ingredients that you're allowed to use and so they're are very limited. They're just a hand. SANITIZERS supposed to be. Water, ethanol or ISOPROPYL, and then the thickener like carbon carbon, and that's all you're supposed to have now. There were a variety of people on the Internet that said Oh. You can just use Tito's vodka in Elo. Don't don't make that. That's yeah. That's not strong enough. That's not to waste of vodka drinking. Yeah, so, what happened with the FDA sort of They needed a big. They needed a big influx. Influx of hand sanitizers in they said to businesses they said okay. We're GONNA loosen the rules. And if you're you know if if you follow the formula, you don't have to get a special license to make hand sanitizer, and that opened up the floodgates for all of these brands to just start, Megan I mean I saw like brew. Reason in my local area here in Chicago were making their own hand sanitizers. Side product 'cause they're making ethanol and they can make hand sanitizer so okay, so please don't tell me where this is headed. This is not an accidental contamination, but in intentional edition. Well, it seems like the there is a brand called Santa derm products. They're doing Voluntary. Recall of the senator advanced hand sanitizer because. They agreed to recall them. Because of the products had a high level of methanol in it is due to the presence of methanol, which is a wood alcohol the substance. While it might kill microbes of bacteria virus. It's toxic I know it can. It's substance that gets absorbed through your skin, and whether you know you can ingest through your skin. It's going to cause some significant. Problems for anybody WHO's exposed. It's it's toxic. It'll make you puke. It's just not a good thing. I mean. It's a it's a poisoned humans. Yeah, it's a poison and what they found out. There are a number of products manufactured by Escott Biochem that were contaminated with methanol. There's the all clean hand sanitizer. The esque bio chem hand sanitizer clean, clear I'm going to provide a list in the in the show notes, but the bottom line. Is there any product produced by ESQUE BIOCHEM? That was a A hand sanitizer. You don't WanNA use it. Get rid of it. What they miss. Wow? That's terrible. It's this is why the FDA in the regulations are so important that they're followed. Even regulations have been loosened, but they still have. About what you make and this is like chemistry. One, Oh, one roof! Yeah I mean they're saying substantial methanol exposure can result in nausea. Vomiting headache blurred vision permanent blindness seizures comas. Or even death so so Tony. These products yeah even in the lab. When you work with methanol as a solvent for different extractions, there's all these warnings on the bottles. needs a special storage place. should be handled by just anybody it's. It's a real. It's a great solvent. It's great at what it does. It's not meant for personal care. Yikes absolutely well. While they FDA was on it. Well. Wow, that's sad news, but do we have any other good beauty science news? Should we head there? Sure? Let's go to beauty science duties. This week you remember that story way back when where when hair conditioner was being sued by people saying that the win hair conditioner was making their hair fallout. Oh. Gosh I who cannot remember that story or not. You know what I mean who can. Everyone remembers that story in the industry that that was that was pretty big back then. What was the other brand that had problems? The diva curl products has seem. More recent, the weren't issue goes back like two thousand fifteen. The diva curls recent right right, but they're the same kind of product. They're the the no poo shampoo, which essentially is a conditioner, so it turns out that while everybody. Stop paying attention to it. The folks over at win there. They were pretty pretty much. Set on like getting to the bottom of this and in a double blind placebo controlled study. Researchers found no evidence that win caused her to fall out. So it's. So what they did, is they tested? When and then they tested to similar products and then a couple of controls irregular INSA conditioner something like that and what they found was that. They could not demonstrate that the wind product made hair fall out any more significantly than these other ones. Though one thing that's really important to note is that the study was paid for by the Wind Company. It wasn't done by them, but they funded it. Which automatically you know, they're not going to publish information. That's not in their favor. They would have just never published it well. You would think that, but they did say in the article, they said the while when did pay for? They did not restrict what was published, so they didn't get like. A preview is gonNA publish in, so they tried to be as. Impartial as you can be when you're a corporation funding study that you want to go a certain way, so the bottom line is this was not a perfectly clean study, but. This is all you can really expect. There's nobody except when who would benefit from running this specific study to demonstrate that the product actually made her fall out or not, although I would agree with you if they did the study and it made her fall out Certainly they're not going to be enthusiastic about getting that published so I would love to see if they took their formulas from five years ago and did this study. From the manufacturer that they were using what the results would have been because I think it would have been a little bit different interesting. Yeah so I'd love to see. Let's take the stuff. They were producing five years ago and see if he gets the same results may be, i. mean just like a larger panel I. Don't Know Twenty Thousand People. It's a it's very interesting. Interesting point you're making their. Because presumably, this study was done on a fresh formulation. So there you go. As far as they're saying, their product doesn't make hair fall out. Actually I was always skeptical that it did make careful out. You were a little less skeptical of pets I've got. An inside scoop is to what really happened so a exactly so there you go the new product. Maybe the new product doesn't make your hair fall out. But also. You. Know just skip. The Clintons just use a lightweight conditioner. You don't need this special cleansing conditioner. This technique I'll just go into the technology. A second here stirred purple dye methyl amine, which is a great catatonic conditioning age. It makes the hair feel amazing in wet stage, and it also helps provide a little bit of a surfactant ISM which makes I made up that word, but it's what makes you know hair clean so right? surfactants cleanse pick up dirt particles, so it's great for that. You could use any product that says sir. Purple Death Lean on it and get great results. You don't need to specifically use a cleansing conditioner. There was one other thing that I thought we could do a Chan. have a chance to talk about. I was on a panel discussion earlier. This Week and Mr Webinar Manley lately you're like on. I. I can't leave my house, but I can virtually leave. There you go It was it was an interesting panel discussion. You can find it on Youtube. Maybe I'll leave a link in our show notes, but we did not get to all the answers a to all the questions on there. It was already an hour and a half long. We didn't get to everything, but one of the things that I had prepared for that. We didn't get to talk about was the question of what do you think are the worst or most misleading beauty claims and I thought it'd be interesting to talk about these before we get into our questions, because these are the kinds of claims that consumers should know about, and it's going to help you make decisions about the products in whether you should believe what they're saying about them so Valerie There's a lot of misleading beauty claims out there. What are some of the ones that you think are the most egregiously misleading? Are we talking? Today can like transport through time a little because if you ask me this question two years ago, I probably would have said something different than I would say today, so let's transport back to two thousand ten free from Repairman. Free. I would have just said I mean they still like really make me angry. I've been a little more accepting of them lately. Just because like that's where the world is, but yeah that one ten years ago at maybe you can agree like really just. Ate At me because it's like. There's nothing wrong with it. Why would you say it's free from that? You know there's nothing wrong with that ingredient. and. Are you saying you've? On that a little bit. Only because consumers are looking for products that fit their personal ethos, and it's a way for them to identify that whether it's wrong or right doesn't matter. People are looking for a way to identify for product is for them, so I've kind of taken myself out of it like wrong or right I wrong. Okay might. I hate when marketing asks to say that stuff I'm like you can in North America. Only thank you, but it's like. It's just a way. Consumers shop now, so I've accepted it in that way. Yeah I I. See it, I. You know my problem with the from claims I. and I agree it's it's one of the most egregious ones, but the thing that does is it does imply a sort of level of safety that is not warranted products that say that they're free from a certain ingredient does not mean that they are more safe than products that include that ingredients and it's it's that implied safety that I think is the most disingenuous thing, but you're right. If there's a consumer is like yeah, I no parabens perfectly fine, but I just don't want to touch him. A free from claim will help them. be able to avoid those sorts of things although they could just look on the back of the label of the. It's much easier to look for Bein. Now if you ask me this question in two thousand fifteen I would've said Nat- natural. Natural, it seems like natural has sort of fallen out of favor in the beauty industry, and now everything is. The even worse claim of clean. Yeah, that's my two thousand twenty so two thousand ten. It was the free from two dozen fifteen natural natural natural like how naturals Cook Meat Approval Beaten Mike Lesco through the chemistry there, but and I thought it couldn't get worse than that Perry, and then now it's like Oh, clean, and it's like. It did get worse so. There, you have it me through the past ten years clean as the newest one and. I get clean in the sense. Let me. I. Don't get clean, okay? Implies a lot of things like the product is safer than other products. What I do get is that it allows because there's no definition of clean of brand is forced to define what clean means for them, so in a way allows the brand to reveal what their ethos is, and what's important to them and what they want to use in products, and how they want to approach stain ability how they want to approach their supply chain, and what they stand for I'm like that clean has created that movement would i. don't like is that? It clean means nothing. It's I. Mean it's so misleading I like it created in terms of the. The conversation I. I don't like what it stands for. It's it to me. It's very misleading. Is One of the top misleading wants to You know and it's just that it's this the whole inside claim that this is going to be safer for you than somebody else's product and I don't like those sorts of things I. It was a replacement for natural, though because. You couldn't very well call coca middle purple butane natural, because you know what you can't go out to some plant and squeeze coca middle purple beaten out of it. Comes from coconuts Perry coupling natural. Starts, but you know sodium sulfate comes from coconuts to. Our Petroleum. Either either way, okay, so you said clean was one of your top most vilified wants. You have others. What are they top misleading was? Another one of course you see the so much celebrity endorsements now the thing that celebrity this this has been done forever these, but these These kinds of commercials are celebrity nurses. They kind of implied that. If you use this product, you're gonNA. Look like this celebrity and it's just you know you're not gonNA look the celebrity. You'RE NOT GONNA. Be famous because of US Avinoam. And you know the celebrity looks good and they they may even use the product I think a Lotta Times lump. They use it on the commercial, but then they have their facialists yeah I'm like really are using clairol to color on here at home. So I think that's very misleading to consumers. Maybe a lot of consumers can sort of see right through that but I. don't know I. It's a psychological ploy that it's. It's hard to ignore you. Know I'll tell you what I find out kate. Middleton's using something about buying it, i. Your Kate Middleton, Dapple Ganger right. She's yeah, sometimes I get that. I'm hidden. I see. You're going with the bangs thing now right this. Yeah it. It's something different. It's fun got to change up. A little I looked like waste Sasser with things. I. Look Tired when I don't have the. Sassy Valerie. That's your new radio name. Another one that. I saw. And I'm not sure if you'll agree with this, but when I see the term active ingredients in. Because to be cosmetics are not allowed to. Have an effect on biochemistry. Now let's be honest. They do have an effect on Biochemistry a small effect, but they can actually have that effect, but they're not treating conditions that right health conditions. I would say, but when I see claims like anti inflammatory. You're not allowed to say that that's that would be a drug claim, and when I see active ingredients like ceremonies or or CBD or policy females, they all kind of rely on this false implication that these active ingredients are going to somehow have drug effect. Even though we're not allowed to say that, you know, they rely on what you've read in the media, or what bloggers will tell you, because usually the advertisers are the cosmetic manufacturers are not going to say oh. Yeah, this ingredient is going to. Boost your collagen production I. Mean if they do say say that they quickly get a letter from the FDA, or FTC and they have to change those words 'cause Masuda. Coles are also not an approved category in the US I'd be like what does that word even mean you know it's so confusing? This kind of stuff creates consumer confusion. It really does. Does yeah and what the market is rely on. Is that you as a consumer will hear the word cosmic suitable? You'll think pharmaceutical, but it's a cosmetic, and so it's GonNa work like a drug, but we don't actually say it, and so I just find that the term active ingredient when we're talking about cosmetics is really misleading. You know it's funny I mean I would never think to say anything like this. You create the term cozma suitable. I mean it's really pure marketing, right, and often so many times when our marketing team or a sales team is interacting with our lab. They're like oh my gosh. You guys geniuses. You're so smart and I'm like you guys are smart I could never think to make any of this stuff up i. mean it really is like? Its intelligent and I fall for marketing all the time and to me that stuff is. It's like street smart. You know it's might be book smart, but you guys are street-smart. And what's GonNa? Make you survive? Street smarts notebook smarts right well. Absolutely, that's why you don't find a lot of cosmic chemists making their own successful beauty product lines because it's hard to believe the S.. Yeah. We'll speaking of BS we've joked before like. Oh, I should start a line that's called like no BS. That actually is a brand. Now I think. Really I I saw on the Internet the other day and I was like man. Idea I should support them. You know it's it's A. It's one thing to launch a product to make it successful. Harder. Marketing Very. Yeah, one one last thing about active ingredients is I i. think there's also additional confusion because on products that are really active sunscreens hand sanitizers anti per sprints, anti cavity toothpaste. You'll see a drug facts panel with active ingredients and then stuff down below and I feel that a lot of questions. Like Hey I see that vitamin C is down below and other ingredients. Why isn't it up in active ingredients or you? Not Despite him in CBA other like really sexy marketing things and I saw Maija in the marketing world, those are active actives. Sure, but they're not active, right? They're not supposed to be doing anything that I think that creates a lot of confusion. As well. When you're trying to use a product, that's actually doing something or treating a condition, and then you're like wait. Where's the you know whatever it's? It's confusing well. The term active ingredient is a drug term when you buy drug products like the ones discussed, they call out the active ingredients, because those are the only ones that have been approved by the FDA to to use when a marketer of a cosmetic product says the word active ingredients. They're kind of taking that drug claim, and then making cosmetic claim in. It's not the same thing. Yeah. Another one that really gets me, too. Is the whole product pricing? We get all the time from our listeners. People have this perception that you get what you pay for an in cosmetics. I guess maybe some extent that could be true. You know in makeup. You can get really great inexpensive makeup. Sometimes, the not the most expensive makeup, the more expensive makeup might have higher pay. Pay Off just because there's more pigment in their at cetera shelter, but as a general rule of thumb. If you had to creams sitting next to each other, the more expensive one doesn't necessarily work better at night. Like to think of it there is like a minimum level of quality, so if something's really cheap price, not gonna work as well or it's going to be. Pretty one note thing like you know. I liked. I worked on five shampoo a great shampoo. If you just want to clean your hair, it's boom. There's nothing like it. If you want your hair to be moisturised and the feel really nice after tangled with the shampoo. Yeah, there, you go one free. That's not the one to go. So but I think there is a minimum level of a product quality that once you get to that anything higher than that. You're not going to see any differences and know you're looking at in in the care. Realm brands like Pantene, probably at that you know the minimum level of quality anything above that price is probably not gonNA work. In general better for a general person now individually you might find a brand that you like a lot better but I'm saying they get to that minimum level. That's the same with a skin care products, minimum level, and then once you get over that price. Tom, then that's all just marketing that you're paying for not for performance. Absolutely true. We have just a couple of quick questions. Today we spent so much time on what important things these are all important things, but we have three really good questions for you guys to. Let's hit the first one. We don't get to chat that much Valerie and I thought. Hey, let's just go off the top of our heads and see what we have to say. But here's some questions. Hey, we got an audio one. I paint. For Your podcast all. I ended question about mineral sunscreens Irish sunscreen specifically jozy a protection that, since the US doesn't have a P., A. Plus rating system for you A. How can I make sure that I'm getting adequate? Use The a protection. I know I should pick a sunscreen, says broad spectrum, but is there any way to make sure it's a high level of UVA? I'm confused because I read that you should use a high zinc oxide content meaning fifteen to twenty percent, but other places say it depends on the size of zinc oxide particles, so higher might not be better. Would it be better to just stick with Japanese and Korean sunscreens that use the PA reading rating? I'm currently using the Australian gold botanical sunscreen tinted face, mineral lotion, SPF fifty, but since it's only four percents in side I. Worry that I'm not getting the UVA coverage that I'm looking for. I look forward to hearing from you. Wow what a great question! So as we mentioned earlier, extra paying attention to Sunscreen, right, do it anyway. Sunscreen really is the best anti aging ingredient, and they say that UVA rays are responsible for some of the long term damage in aging that you see on skin so really important to make sure that when you are using a sunscreen than it does have Uva protection and I feel like our. Our listener the ask the question kind of answered a lot of the points as she was going through the question I was like well. Let me bring this up to her. You want to look for a sunscreen. That's broad spectrum and owned then. She kind of answered that herself, and then she like well then I. Know Zinc, oxide and I'm like shoot. She answered my next up. Wait so lots of really good questions, so she just mentioned one thing I want to tell our listeners about is that she mentioned like. Should I buy this Asian Sunscreen? which has the P. A. Plus rating and the PA plus rating is one method of. Demonstrating to a consumer, what level of Uva Sun Protection the product tasks? It's not a system that's used in United States. It's typically used in Asia as she says so. In the US, we do a critical wavelength test that tests whether or not the sunscreen can. EFFECTIVELY ABSORB UV at three hundred seventy nanometers or higher and that says hey. Yes, it protects from UVA damage. Well, it doesn't solve the dilemma. Our listener has of okay well. How much is it providing and to me? I'm like well. It's providing it so how much I don't know how relevant that is, or if we can find a way to measure that. But the P. A. Plus rating says we actually think there is a way to measure that and for US p. a. pluses some UV protection. If you had a second plus Sinus, moderate a third plus sign, it's even more and I think the highest is p. a., plus plus plus plus which is extremely extremely high and the challenge I have with this is that I don't know a meaningful it is. I think the fact that multiple geographies can't agree on this regulation. I think that also says are not regulation. They can't agree whether or not this really isn't effective way to communicate. Protection also says something else so. For me. Yes zinc oxide does provide more UVA protection. It's very important to us. A sunscreen that is noted to have broad spectrum protection that means they've done the critical wavelength test in the United States. And if you're really uncertain. I suppose you could stick to the sunscreen set. Have the P. A. Plus System, and you could have peace of mind I'm sure they work just as effectively as the ones in the US, but sometimes it's just about having the peace of mind so for me, that's why would do one of the big problems with UvA measurement is that there's no obvious sign. When we do. The SPF measurements SPF is related to the time that it takes for somebody with a certain amount, certain types of skin to. Right and you can, you can just look at the CNN. Oh, the skin turn red! It's burned. Okay, an endpoint right, and so you have have an untreated skin, and you have the treatise skin, and you can zap the skin for a certain amount of time, and then when one side starts to burn, you could check the other side and compare them, and so there are some obvious thing of and the thing that makes the skin burn is the UV. Radiation Right, and you can remember that by UV burn. That's a nice name. That's how I remember it. Is for burning a is for aging. See can't get through those and layer. Wow the ABC's of you. Yeah, so what what I was saying, so there isn't a simple test to say okay. This is blocking UVA for a certain amount of time, so all we can really do is say from a I think it's a spectrophotometer you can do. an orbits, a measurement annually Oh does. Does this sunscreen block at Uva at this wavelength? and zinc oxide blocks UvA. UVA The other one in the united. States has approved that blocks. UVA is able Ben's zone. So if you don't WanNA use zinc oxide, sunscreen, the only other thing that you can really use his able Ben Zone in the United States one so those we'll have uva protection, but like you said it's gotTa say broad spectrum, but the amount that is gonNA protect you. Don't. We don't really know presumably the more zinc oxide that's in your formula. The better UVA protection is going to give you, but there isn't a good test to say that that's the case, so that is the big challenge I'm a little skeptical of these P., a. plus ratings and things, and as you said, there isn't a a worldwide standard, and that's because it's a difficult thing to measure. Yeah. I wish I had more definitive proof because it's something. I'm interested into, but I think. The most important thing you can do with sunscreen is you know where at least thirty and reapply reapply reapply cover your exposed skin. If you can, and you should be good kind of no matter what you're using songs, it's designated as broad spectrum. He knows I was golfing today. It was ninety degrees out, but I was wearing long pants. Just so I didn't have to use sunscreen on my lakes. Oh Nice, it's not snowing in Chicago. It is not. It's like ninety five every time. I've talked to you this year. You're like. Oh, my Gosh, it snowing! Now, we've gone from snow to ninety five degrees. Wonder what's the next question. Our next question comes from us. actually this is from twitter. Madura asks. Can essential oils be alternative to parabens in Lipa Philip formulations? So let's unpack with this question is asking parabens are. Preservatives in cosmetics. They are vilified ingredients at a lot of companies with beauty and such are trying to remove parabens. Because they've developed a bad reputation unfairly really based on a flawed, two thousand and five study, but. Either way marketers are moving away from parabens. Don't want it to me. You can't fight it. You know I I've given. You can't fight city hall I continue to try to fight city hall, but There we go? So Anyway, people? Are Looking for alternatives, an essential oils to some extent do have anti microbial effects, so parabens are used in formulas because they will prevent the growth of fungi. What happens in your cosmetics? Kind of the same thing that happens in your Your bread actually I was GonNa make a sandwich today and I guess I hadn't gone into the bread pantry for a while, but I opened up and there's all this green green puffiness. Oliver my bread, just kind of eat it. Yeah just leave it. Would you do that because it depends? How much like if I were desperate I would do it, but I would also toast it. I wouldn't eat the bread raw. You know depends how hungry I am unlike. Anything else. I don't know I started cutting it away and then my wife came downstairs and she's like what do you do? That's disgusting so I so I threw out for the birds to eat when. Well Anyway. That kind of fun guy that can grow on your bread That's the same sort of thing that can grow in your skincare products, and we add parabens and preservatives like that to stop that specific kind of growth. Now there are other other other preservatives that we used to prevent a bacterial growth yuccas fungus, not the only thing right. There's also mold is exactly material. Yeah, yeah, and so while parabens are good fun guy. other things are are better for a bacteria. Bacteria, so essential oils. Though now they do on some case, they can be antibacterial 's. In some studies, they can be demonstrated to exhibit anti microbial activity exactly and the thing about an essential oil is You have to understand how they developed in plants. Plants develop these ingredients to protect the plant from some specific microbe that might attack them. I. Have a bean plant out there and one of the leaves got all attacked. It was turning Brown. You know the So plants have since they just sit there. Microbes can just come on, and they have to develop these ingredients that are going to stop that kind of growth, but the thing about evolution is evolution is very specific. It's going to stop the growth of a specific or What you need at that makes it not a good preservative for cosmetics, because cosmetics can be attacked by all kinds of different microbes You need more than just. A an essential oil that's GONNA kill one specific species because the plant had that, and that's why things like parabens, formaldehyde, donors and organic acids are work as preservatives because they're broad spectrums, which they will kill a whole host of microbes, essential oils just can't do that. They're not broad spectrum enough and so no, they do not make good alternatives to parabens while she did ask in. Philip formulations. So, what do you think about that? Since essential oils are? Lippo, Philip Materials. I mean. They are lipids They are gonNA. Actually blend in early. However There's there's that's not going to make them or anti. For a broad spectrum that just makes them more compatible with the formula. You can use a lip affleck, Paraben to be effective in those types of formulations to so no the fact that it's Lipa. Phillix isn't really going to make it a better preservative. Yeah and to, they're just other drawback drawbacks to using essential oils in formulating that. The they can cause a lot of complications and they can. Complications for your formula, but complications for the consumer they can be sensitizing. Some of them are photosensitive photo reactive, and that's not good, either so it's much better just to use something that has a lower risk to to the consumer. Valerie, you're so down on essential oils. I don't know I mean I was going to make a joke but dough. Tara should be like. Don't Tara. I mean they're great for aromatherapy. I believe jurors therapy, but I just. Their essential, you know hey. It's name about America's. This I've never heard a big fan myself so. We'll last. Question can't wait for this one. Jen asks wire products with Asiatic. Acid usually found his gels and not as light creams. You know I'm always jealous about how easily you pronounce as a Laik a keeps A. As as Z Laic, S has that east. AS ATLANTA? While I'm a user of this acid because I do have resigned show on to portions of my cheeks, and now it's even more red with your Seo. Don't tell dermatologists. She probably will not be happy with me, but I only went to her. So it's going to be another five and a half months before she sees me, anyway would grit. Yeah, so she has prescribed this for me. Because as laic acid is very effective in treating Rosa I'm not supposed to use a strong peels were. Other AH as or H, as that can cause havoc on my skin. And it has been prescribed, it's a minimum usually like fifteen percent in a gel, but they also make fifteen percent foam version I. don't know a lot of people know that, but it is available as a foam. And I actually was forced from the Gel at one point by my insurance company to the foam I did not like it at all, and then they said Oh. We don't cover the foam anymore now. You can only get the job I was like. Thank goodness I go back to the jaw. Knocking ally I do use it all over my face. Knack just nachos my spots because it is amazing. Your Fan. Yeah, I love it, but that doesn't answer the question here. Okay, so yeah Perry, why is it that as league acid is usually found as gels or foams and not as light creams. I was curious about this and it turns out. Valerie that back in two thousand and three. There was an article published in the Journal of the American. Academy of Dermatology that showed researchers destroyed that a fifteen percent gel formulation actually worked better than a twenty percent cream formula interesting. Yeah, so the product a win. Put in an emulsion somehow that emotion will. Make it harder for the as the LAIK acid to get down to your skin? Yeah, I could believe that yeah, and so it just turns out at a GEL is a much more efficient way to work, and so probably the reason that you find jails on the on the marketplace is that companies probably just make jail? Because theoretically they can use a lower amount and get a more effective product. As a like acid also have some limited solubility and one thing that I have noticed about the gel formulation and even the phone. I mean the phone was a little different felt kind of it was really dry and hard to rub around, but it it does form a film on the skin, and I think that contact time with as lake acid is really important, and I'm wondering if in the cream you how you have the emulsion, you have other stuff in there, and it's preventing it from getting to the skin informing that Phil Network to have optimal skin contact that that's kind of interesting I, never really thought about Haywire. Isn't this a heavy cream I? Just thought you know what they want to deliver a drug active. It's a very simple formulation. It's water carbon, ascorbic acid sodium hydroxide. That's literally listen the prescription formula. I thought they were less is more, but that's I didn't know about the study. That's pretty cool. Well now you know and knowing is half the battle. Yeah well. I think that's all we have today, not a lot of questions. We still had a big show. You know we had a lot of questions, but hey. We wanted to talk about other stuff. We'll get them next time. Yeah, in the next time and the next time. Deadly if you have a question that you want, get answered on the. Just recorded on your smartphone. In an email to the beauty brains at g mail, DOT, com, or you could also send us a message through one of our various social media accounts on instagram were at the beauty brains, two thousand eighteen on twitter. Rathi brains, and we have facebook page. Hey if you get a chance, can you go over apple podcasts and leave us a review? That's going to help other people find the show and ensure that we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer which we will answer if unless we feel like talking about other things. One other thing is the beauty brands are now patriot. If you want to support the show, patriotic is the best way to do that and we thank all of our patriots. Soon. We're going to do a special event for patrons I think we could do like a head to head Webinar like we're doing right now. maybe just special for Patriots. So, if you want to keep the show going and avoid those Pesky advertisements that I personally find kind of annoying and my other podcasts that I listen to. Keep us, AD free and go to Patriot dot com slash the beauty brains and subscribe. Thank you to all of our patriots. Is that what you call them, Patriot fans patrons I. Don't know I don't know why it's not spelled patriot. Patriotic P. A. Y. T. R. E. O. N., P., A. T. P., A. Y. T. we. We should get that, URL All right everyone, thanks again for listening and remember be brainy about their beauty. Everybody.
Ep. 210: How Stress Affects Your Skin with Dr. Amy Wechsler
"Everyone is jess I'm Jen. I'm still JEN ALWAYS JEN? We Are Fatma's Skara and we are back for another week of beauty. News were fat Mascara I like it. It's like our band name now. Famous Garra rocking the house We are excited to back with you I. feel like we're gathering around. We know every every Wednesday or whenever you listen to us we've got a lot to talk about. We know it's been. It's been a tough week. A rough. We all over the world. Yeah, we thank you hope everyone is hanging and staying safe, and if you are joining us this week, we thank you for coming back and hope that we can provide a little bit of a break for everyone on that note. WHAT ARE WE GONNA? Talk about this week. Let's see so I up. To issue a correction, an episode or two ago, we talked about deep stuff bikini line bumpy, if you. Are like me in are taking bikini line grooming into your own hands during the quarantine, you may be experiencing some bikini line bumpy as an I, asked my good pal Dr, Rinella. How to handle this. I came out with a lot of great tips and one of those was to treat with Hydro Court of over the counter hydrocortisone I was so caught up in her tips so excited just like going crazy and I said ten percent hydrocortisone and a couple of you, you guys. I like you guys because you're so informed. And you wrote me some friendly friendly criticism, a correction and you said correction, a correction they sacked, checked us, and one of the emails was from a registered nurse, and said you cannot get ice at ten percent hydrocortisone can't you cannot get ten percent hydrocortisone at like a CVS? It's one percent and I look back at my notes from Manila and. And of course Ronel, said one percent guys sometimes I get really excited and carried away, but if you have inflamed skin bumps, look for one percent topical Hydrocortisone, really sorry, so editor's note I was wrong and I hope you'll stick with me. I. Do not tend to make these kind of mistakes and I'm really excited that you guys are so informed and kind to correct me. Kindly, so we are going to also hit you with the headlines of the week Jen right correct, and we also have sunscreen news to share with everyone, and then our guest is I think it's really timely right now. We have Dr Amy. Wechsler, she's a board certified psychiatrist and dermatologists, so we're going to talk about the link between mental health and your skin so should be really interesting. You're ready to do it. So much news discuss. It has been a week. Even though there's been so much going on in the world, beauty doesn't stop it so I up in the week following George Floyd's murder here in the United States has protests unfolded around the world, the beauty and fashion industry was having its own reckoning rightfully so and we're all taking a closer look at how racism permeates the way we do business. We're doing that here at fat Mascaro, as well one change we saw. saw that we thought was really interesting. It was a call to action from designer. Aurora James so she's a fashion designer, but on her instagram she was asking American retailers. People like sephora target saks fifth avenue lot of the places. We all shop for beauty to play fifteen percent of their shelf space to black owned businesses, which was if that doesn't make sense to you if you're not in the United States, says because in America the population is about fifteen percent black. And I thought that was a really interesting way to put your money where your mouth is like. We can't just be talking about how we want to be better in the future if you can do hard numbers of. Sharing Black beauty businesses. That's a really great way to help. Move this conversation forward. Yeah, I like that it was very actionable, and it's something that you can see and it gives people an actual him at work. They talk about like a smart goals, and you know it's an actionable like quantifiable thing, and there's a lot of lip service happening right now and I. Think a lot of it is you know people mean well? But what are you going to do about it and we should say here at fat, Mascara we two been thinking about it? So Jessica I val to going forward continue to show a diversity of voices in the interviews that we. We do here and also increase the number of black-owned beauty businesses that we talk about so when we talk about products, we're not always calling out who the founder is, but working to do our best in the future to make sure that we're really diverse with the types of brands that we feature and just let you know about more small indie brands that could use your dollars right now. A lot of you have been asking. Where can we shop for black on beauty or on the facebook group There's an amazing thread going on with a lot of guys sharing black on PD brands you love that love. That's great. I wanted to wreck you to. Jen and I can certainly rattle off some great brands right now, but I really WANNA share. Whoa, Ma Minted Lauren. NAYPYIDAW should I stop. I really WANNA share our friend Julie Wilson's lab. Great instagram highlight reel while his name is familiar Julie Wilson was Jen's Guest Co.. When I wasn't. Available one day she is fantastic. She is the former essence beauty and style director. Now she is the cosmic beauty director congratulations Julie, she just got the job a couple of months ago a she has this highlight reel of almost two hundred right now. This over the Dave cowens was two hundred black own beauty fashion businesses. All small brands definitely shopped the highlight reel Julie Wilson is at Miss Julie M. I.. I. S. S., J., U., l., E. Good. Her real is right there. You know what else just I should add as an update on. She did adjust beauty version of this for cosmopolitan dot com with one hundred and twenty-five, so we can link to that on the Blab. That was one hundred twenty-five black-owned beauty brand batteries go on instagram. Lots of resources that follow her too because she's a really good. Absolutely, so check it out. I think you're going to be seeing a lot of brands. Really kind of get with the program and I think they really all are having a good hard look at themselves. If they if they're. They're paying attention. US included okay, next up is the my French is burberry's new global beauty director, so she's a makeup artist very artistic, like just like abstracts amazing stuff. She's worked with YSL in the past, she was also with Tom Ford beauty as a creed of artists consultant at one point. Even she's worked with Christian Lubaton to now. She's at burberry. Let's see what she does there. You know what's interesting about Samaya French. I think she's really ushered in that very kind of. Let's say like ugly beauty. Beauty, that is not necessarily meant to seduce or impress grotesque. Yes, it's makeup that isn't like enhancing your features makeup making a statement and looks artistic. She is a really cool aesthetic. So watch what she does at burberry okay engender. Science Corner had to I. Just read this really interesting study. This was published in the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology so there was a survey of people with psoriasis in China during the covid nineteen pandemic there and the quarantine, and they found that that resulted in people, psoriasis, having negative effects on both their skin, their skin condition the. The psoriasis and their mental health, so part of the problem was that people weren't working, so they didn't have money to to pay for a lot of their psoriasis treatments, but a corrected for that, and they still found that there was a impact from the pandemic and the thinking. Is that It was partially because people weren't having outdoor access, and they were more stressed, and that's what you know played up the psoriasis. I feel like this is something we'll be talking about with our guest in the interview. So if that's intriguing to you definitely keep listening through the interview. another news item earlier, this spring, America's first native American beauty brand opened in window rock Arizona with a storefront I should say all of its employees are from the Navajo nation and the company beauty makes skincare and makeup I actually read about this company to feature in beauty. Independence linked to that on the blog but I love how the owner. Her name is a sake bottle of France SASSARI and she describes the products this way, which is just I just like smiling when I read this, the quotas quote our skincare line is ninety eight percent botanically based gentle yet effective life is already complicated, and my goal is to make sure our products are uncomplicated easy to use. Preach preach preach, preach, preach US ocoee Bois. I'm excited to see this brand. I'm going to order some so I can try it out, but for now just an interesting news. And next up in the business corner. Can I also have a business corner just? Not just the science corner sounds like you got a lot of corners right now. Five. Guess what Charlotte Tilbury has indeed sold a majority stake of her company. It was one of the companies that we talked about was possible. Owner, puge, superior Spanish conglomerate. They own brands like John Paul Gauthier fragrances. They also have a lot of licenses. Product perfumes is one of their license. They are now the majority stake owner Charlotte is going to stay on as the chairman president and chief creative officer. Unfortunately I do not have hard numbers for yet. 'cause I just. Just and I had a bet going on how much they paid for this pretty pretty little company. What do you think chests? What do we say I think over a billion? Yes, so in the next week. I bet you in the reporting. It will come out with that number is and we will let you know next time we record. I think you know I didn't see huge. As you know a player in this in this fight, I really didn't. But I think it's interesting for them because they don't have a color brand doesn't spring to mind they don't they barely even have skincare care. They're just so heavy and fragrance there so heavy in fragrance, and they also don't have a real personality brand, right? They'VE SHAKIRA THEY SHAKIRA FRAGRANCES, but they're all perfume I think put Shakira and Charlotte just would not even put them in the same. They're not comparable. Yeah, and they don't have a color brand at all I looked at their brand portfolio in this news came in and I was like this makes a lot of business. They obviously realize like. We can't just be so heavy in fragrance when there's all these other. Places to play in so yeah, that's some news there. We'll try and find out how much how much they paid. I WanNa know let's let's talk a little bit about numbers exact clay last item. Let's talk about Kylie Jenner the beauty entrepreneur. She has sadly lost her billionaire status, so that's according to Forbes. Who gave her the billionaire status in the first place in a recent article? Article they looked at her cash out from selling her company to cody and her personal fortune, and they re estimated it to be a little less than nine hundred million, which sounds like a lot of money either way, but there's some important facts in this story right just so basically the it's bigger than them. Being not quite billionaires the Forbes. Editors are basically saying that the. have been inflating their success for quite some time over the years. The KARDASHIANS have invited the Forbes editor of their mansions, and over to their CPA has offices, basically trying to make them live. They were richer filings. You know they were given the full PR press to try and get like a big number for their families, so they looked richer and you know they wanted to. Have you know be on the Forbes List? When they were on the number fifty nine spot Chris was according to their publicist. This is in quotes, guys so frustrated. We've done so much she. She said, and then honestly the the Skin Carolina. Last year. They said that they did one hundred million in revenue, the first month and a half, but the filings show that they were on track to finish the year with twenty five million in sales. That's twenty five percent of what they claimed. That's hard math people, so it just goes to show like PR spin and a big powerful name that doesn't let you just inflate numbers and say you have things you don't. It's really it's kind of annoying. So of course the Jenner's have said that this is all untrue. Let's see how this plays out. Okay guys. This next segment is brought to you by Neutrogena remember, we said we tell you and it was sponsored segment. This is one so they're sponsoring this and help. Make it possible for us to bring you the podcast every week. We've always gone to Neutrogena for the fax on Sun Protection so when they told us they had some interesting news about sunscreen Justin I were like. Yes, please. We will talk about it and we will share it with you, so we're not really talking about their sunscreens. They make lovely sunscreens. This is more of like a service announcement about some. Some News Jeff share the news. I was like Whoa, so I saw the new poll that Neutrogena conducted this spring and I read that thirty nine percent of Americans twenty two and over say they're so focused on handwashing right now, and avoiding all the germs that they're not even thinking about sunscreen application, and that seemed crazy, but maybe it's just like a temporary slip I. Don't know I know you think liquid once the pandemic is done ever is going to go back to remembering to wearing sunscreen, so they let me talk to. This woman is the prevention researcher and clinical psychologist. Psychologist who specializes in Behavioral Medicine Sherry Pagot. That's who she is. We had a lovely chat and she was saying. Yes, of course, we all realize this is going to be happening, because you're so focused on other health things, but she pointed me to this other study. That was really interesting. They studied Danish Gym Goers Gym exercisers. You would call them, and basically, if they were on vacation for a week and not exercising, you think okay when they get back. They go right back to exercising for two months afterwards. There was decreased Jim Attendance meaning just the act of getting out. Out of the habit of something. Even when you think you're back in the habit, you might not be sued. She's very worried that this could mean for the rest of the summer. People aren't wearing sunscreen so i. get that you know. Behavioral changes have lasting effects, but personally for me like if I do one healthy thing, it kind of snowballs, and it makes me act healthier all around Oh like snowballs in a good way. Yes, yes, so balls is like a bad thing, but you mean like it rolls into more healthy stuff. Yes, yeah, I voted the positive because snowballs going. Downhill Way, right? What's the uphill way I don't know what give me an example of this puzzle case, so this is the best example. I remember this commercial and it was for a healthy breakfast bar in this woman started the day. You are like in her body, and like looking through her eyes, had this healthy breakfast bar, and then you saw her like go to work, and maybe like you know, there is a bunch of donuts at the office and someone's like you know Susan like Joanna and she was like no thanks, Carl, and then the next thing was you know? She was literally worked with people. They've Susan Karl. They like are in everybody's office. Go on, yeah, you get it the next thing the next thing and then. She decided that she was going to. Walk instead of take the bus or whatever it was, but you could kind of all this little small choices, and it was like one small choice lead to the next thing, and that's how I feel when I do something good for myself. I just believe in myself to do the next thing I. It's funny because I feel the same way. I called it like a halo effect. I was talking to Dr go about this. She called it like a synergy like you're just in the mode of be, she said. said it's definitely she's knows that with Diet and exercise, but like there's no research that's true for Sunscreen, but I feel like it should be like I feel like when I'm like. I've been keeping my sunscreen near the mask like the face mask and the hand sanitizer, so it's like helping me remember to use it and I feel like I've just been healthier all around because I'm like okay putting on the mask. That's a good thing and honestly like. I've been floss my teeth more because I'm like just like. All these weird little things little things to just try to keep you in check especially right now. Keep your health check and sunscreen is a part of that. Yeah, and also I was thinking about the mask. This like. Can you imagine a Mask Tan? You'd only farmer's Tan. They call it here. In the states I don't know if elsewhere in the world, but when you're wearing a t shirt, and like that crazy arm Bentley. Are we going to get these face vans? Nobody wants that probably you know so. I S our listeners. How do you remember to put on Sunscreen? How do you keep up with this great healthy habit and like you? Jen a Lotta is about placement. You say you keep the sunscreen right by your mask. I have people putting it in their shoes, which is hilarious. Remind the door that's funny. I thought that was really cute in their baby stroller. Which I think is really smart, because I think about that whenever I'm out with Les. How could get you have a baby now? Which means it'll be wearing more sunscreen. Shiva baby stroller to push your sunscreen around in exactly and if and if the baby is old enough yet. Keep the baby sunscreen in there, too. That's important next to their keys. And then somebody else bought a huge jumbo bottle of Sunscreen, and they bought that and they. They spent the big money to get this. This jumbo bottles through like Oh, I'm getting through this I got to get through it by the end of the summer or something like that. Get your money's worth I. Love It. Yeah, yeah, if you've invested that much sure so really good tips there. It's on our facebook group are fan, facebook group Oh cool. Maybe we'll keep them coming throughout the summer to and honestly thank you to Neutrogena I for the poll because I did not know that was happening, but thanks them for sponsoring this segment because you know how important sun-protection is to I and we're just really proud to have them as a sponsor here on the show. So Amy, Wechsler one of only a few physicians in the United States. Who is board certified in both psychiatry and Dermatology? She graduated from Duke. University went to medical school at Cornell University Medical College then. She completed her psychiatry residency and as if that wasn't enough from there, she decided to do a second residency in dermatology. She's an adjunct assistant clinical professor in psychiatry at Weill. Cornell Medical College. She's also the author of the mind body connection, which was published in two thousand eight. It's such an excellent resource for anyone who wants learn more about what we discussed this interview and with that here's the interview. Dr. Are Welcome to fat Mascara thank you so much. Thanks for having me Oh. We need you. We need you right now. This is this is going to be a really timely topic I think. Our listeners are GonNa love so I'm just going to start out right away. Let's talk about you are both a psychiatrist anoterh just so you're the perfect person to talk to us about this. Thank you. People are stressed out right now. I think it's safe to say heightened levels of stress from. From both the pandemic social unrest, all the things going on the world, their usual lives money matters unless if people have chronic stress all the time, so cues just going to chemical level. What's happening when you're stress like what happens to your body? And how is your skin? Even involved in that sure, of course, so all these bad things happen when you're stressed. We can start with the brain. So there's a molecule called Cortisol and that's a molecule that goes up during the fight or flight response, and we need it, too, because it gets us to run away from danger, you know in the Savannah if we're being chased by a Cheetah, but then bet danger, either they catch us, and we're dead, or we've gotten away in a minutes and then. Then, the court has all levels supposed to go back down to normal heart rate will go back down to normal all that, but record is all is getting pumped out from chronic stress over hours days weeks months. It does a lot of bad things to the body with interesting. Is that the brain and the skin or formed from the same embryo logic layer so there so many interconnections? When! I learned that I was like Oh that makes so much sense. In embryology and Cortisol that's made. makes its way to the skin real easily there, so many vascular interconnections also, the skin actually probably makes its own cortisol. There's a couple of studies on that court is all the so many bad things, so it's called. Pro Inflammatory inflammation is really bad so to the skin cortisol does it breaks down Collagen so that's why people feel like. They can get a new wrinkle overnight when they're really stressed and they can. It also causes acne so acnes disease of inflammation. So that's why everyone gets stressed pimples, lots of studies like they've done so many studies on college campuses during exam time count pimples. And PIPPA counts. Go Up to three fold. It also messes with the skin's barrier, so the skins are really good barrier, keeping the good things and bad things out. The skin gets leaky when there's too much cortisol around, so it's called Trans Epidermal water loss. T w. l just means the skins leaky. It's leaking water and in being leaky it. Let's stuff in that. It shouldn't just to the surface, so that's why some some people are like. Oh, my gosh, like my normal products are now giving me rashes like what's going on or someone who has like really kind of hardy skin and can try all sorts of different fragrances. Gets Arash. Also Sorry go ahead I was just gonNA. Ask about the inflammation thing because that's always confused me 'cause. I picture inflammation like oh I stopped my toe. It's red and hot and swollen, but like do your little cells and your skin. Look if you can't see it on your face, are they like? Are they getting swollen? What is that like cellular inflammation? Sure so yeah, so inflammation doesn't necessarily mean swelling. You can see, but it is microscopic swelling so a bunch of years ago. Cardiologists figure out that heart attacks aren't just caused by coronary arteries getting stuck with. Cholesterol, it's that cholesterol plex sits there until it gets inflamed and swollen is when a heart attack happens so similarly in the skin. Inflammation in the cells breaks down college right right, but it also if you're thinking about a poor with pimp like that can make a pimple, acne is a is a is a disease of inflammation so as psoriasis so as exit. Just different cells get inflamed. You can't see the inflammation itself, so you've mentioned acne. A couple of times and its connection to stress so I was doing a little research prior to our chat, and certainly over the years you know, Jenin I. We meet with lots of people and acne, and the and the connection to depression has come up over and over again out there. There was a twenty eighteen study where researchers found that patients with acne. Acne this is we don't need to study to tell us. This. have an increased risk with developing meter depression, the risk for major depression was highest within one year of acne diagnosis, a sixty three percent higher risk compared with individuals without acne. Do you think that people still even though we're hearing this over and over again? Still underestimate that acne has as major effect on mental health. Yes, I do. It's underestimated all the time, and it's so sad to me because I see these patients all day long every day and they're suffering. It's real suffering it's real depression. There's so many studies like that and there's a great study a few of them on accutane I love. The strong acne treatment and gets a really bad rap for a couple of reasons, but some big studies have shown that during accutane depression scores all the way down and self esteem scores. Go all the way up. which is what we always see. Yeah I, think you mentioned that like? It's underestimated too quick, personal anecdote I know somebody who their child had such bad cystic acne, the someone who's close to me but such bad cystic acne, terrible terrible and they. You know this is a smart person. They said Oh. It's a phase teenage years teenagers they could offer. It's the chips like they're going. These old wives tales. It's the sweat from the summer like his face. Yeah, exactly, so, what is that gap is that they're not getting? We all have the Internet, now most of us do not all of us know. Most of us have accessed information is if the cost of getting to the dermatology? What is we're kind of talking about two different things here, but their depression. is so serious with. Acne And it's accutane I was on. ACCUTANE wants. It's not like they're there must. There is a generic. It's not like this huge threshold to get the drug right like it's right. I'm just trying to think the hurdles to solve this problem. We know that depression leads to such more serious things like to me. This is a crisis I agree with you. I think depression in general is underestimated in teenagers, especially because teenagers are quote supposed to be Moody, but that's not actually true. Yeah, and depression in teenagers looks a little different than adults like when a teenager withdraws from his or her activities or like. That's really bad sign they can. Anyway and they're more irritable than adults who get depressed just generation, but it can look it can look the same and I think a lot of parents just think back to their own teenage life, and if their parents didn't take their acne seriously or like gave them ten bucks to buy some clear Ciller. They don't really remember very well, you know. It. It's very hard for some people to take it seriously and I think it's their own psychology and their own upbringing, and sometimes their own education level, and their own ability to be insightful and empathic. Whenever apparent brings me a kid to treat. I always think the parent You've done such a great thing for your child bringing him or her in here like that's, it's a real gift. I'm thinking about people who are listening here that maybe don't have access to someone like yourself. What can they do if they see somebody suffering with very bad acne and Consequentially, you know maybe some depression. That's their child, rather their child, or maybe maybe it's even them listening. Oh, well first of all a lot of people with acne in depression feel hopeless. And, when you feel hopeless than you, you don't try to get help. You think nothing can help me. So just knowing that there's always help, like acne can always be treated and always be improved upon soak in depression. Depression can take long or sometimes, and sometimes it's tricky in the acne something you have to play around with the medicines, and it's a little bit of trial and error and takes a little bit of time, but there's always hope and the other thing I hear a lot of people with acne feel like they're alone like they're the only ones with such bad quote, really bad skin, everyone else's clear skin. All my friends are clear all the if your friends have clear skin in a teenager than you're either not seeing their acne, because it's on their body, and it's covered. Covered, or the very had treatment, because ninety two percent of teenagers have acne and the the number still in the eighties twenty somethings, so it so common and yet people feel so alone with it, which makes me sad, so that's why I love to try to educate people about how while it's so common. It doesn't mean you have to live with it that it's like a normal right of passage. It's a medical condition, so if you do go to the doctor, the drugs to treat acne would be covered by insurance. Correct, the short answer is yes, if you're a teenager, some insurance companies have made the arbitrary decision that after the age of twenty five. They're not gonNA cover, act. which makes zero sense since acnes still really high, until will for women until menopause and ferment could be their whole life, so if I have an insurance company that will cover medicine mean I, fight it to get the medicine for the patient, and what about another skin issue that is also very much connected to mental state is psoriasis so that was rice I read has a thirty nine percent of increased risk of being diagnosed. If you have psoriasis, you have a thirty nine percent increase of depression. Anxiety thirty one percent higher chance of being diagnosed with anxiety would have you observed all of that I mean I think we. We've known that for a long time. The thing about the skin is at its on the outside right, so if someone has an ulcer suffers from migraines, they feel horrible and not to discount that, but they don't have to deal with the world interacting with their illness right, but if someone has psoriasis on the outside of their body, it's very common on hands and arms. And it can take over your whole scalp, and 'cause like tons of Dandruff. It's also very uncomfortable or acne if it's on the face like Tara hide so that interaction with the world becomes really difficult. You're wearing your pain on your face exactly. And psoriasis associated with with arthritis, which can be really debilitating, but. Since I graduated from residency that when I was resident, that's when the first biologic treatment I rises came out, which was called and Bro. And since then there's thirty of them now, so there are these amazing treatments that can really clear up skin and. Talk about insurance, like many can be covered by insurance drug companies who make them have a program for people who don't have insurance and they can get them, so you can get to a doctor. You can get one of these medicines, and if you can't get to the doctor, I'm just jumping ahead a little bit here. If you're able to in some way, bring down your cortisol levels. Yes, of course, you probably need medical help as well, but would that have a positive effect on these types of skin. Conditions yes, it. It always does actually but. If someone has really bad psoriasis, and that's causing them. Depression I to put the onus on the patient to say like. Yeah, okay, now you have to, but if someone's going through a stressful period, let's say they didn't have acne for a while, but they used to be acne prone, and they start breaking out, and they can be mindful and figure out. Oh! What's going on in my life to cause his flare up? I think being the cool thing about being mindful is that it's free right, but it it takes time and you have to be thoughtful. And I always talk about sleep because cortisol is at its lowest during sleep. And during sleep is when all the anti inflammatory molecules are at their highest, those really great molecules that he'll like growth hormone Beta endorphin until if you bathe your skin in those for as long as possible and for adults at seven and a half to eight hours a night. People like roll their eyes at me when I say that. Is really important. catnaps help to then you could heal these things faster for sure so this is good when people tell me to meditate to have less stress. Could I just like sleep a half an hour more? Yes, yes, unlike this advice, soccer weck of meditation to like feels like that's not for you. Then you shouldn't do it. I'll sleep I like that. Sleep is awesome. Speaking of some other conditions that have a tie distress. I'm not sure if this is your area of expertise, but I've always wanted to ask a guest one of our interviews about this so. Picking like I'm a picker, I feel like literally. Everybody is a picker, but we just two different levels. Talk about how we pick. Our skin or hair are eyebrow. Friends that pick SCABS, other people that pick mosquito bites, or whatever can you explain why we as humans even have that urge like? Why can't we just leave it alone? I think thinking is so interesting. Some people aren't pickers. Really. They're rare, but some people really don't pick it their skin. There's a whole spectrum, but I think it's about part of it's about self grooming, and so I'm a crazy lover of chimpanzees and I last. Last was in Africa last year, and I just I'm like really into Jayne good on all that stuff and I sit there with the chimps, and they're grooming each other, because they're getting bugs off of each other, but also they groom each other, when there are no bugs there to self, soothe or end to sue each other and to decrease anxiety levels, so there's definitely something to manipulating our bodies that is meant to soothe. And so you know people who you see like twirling their hair or inadvertently picking it something it gives a little pleasure, and I think it does decrease your cortisol level, but then sometimes you can scar your skin and leave marks car. The problem obviously there can be. It can be problematic, but a lot of people do something. It's rare in this world for. For someone not to do something to their skin or their hair or their house. It's interesting that there's like a evolutionary biological reason. We do that you said that it can be problematic. Like how do you know when picking habit you might have is like is entering into the realm of okay. We have a medical problem. Will I? How how much time? Time does it take during your day if it's less than a minute, is probably not going to be a problem, but if it's fifteen minutes or more, I always think like that's a lot of time to be picking like each day. I mean I've spent fifteen minutes on like a pimple like pre post. Spot ball that business cleaning it on. You know, but. But you're talking about every day. Someone who's like going over their face and body. Yes, and how do you help these people well? They have to have insight into being a problem, so a lot of people pick in private. They never tell anybody sometimes I'll see it inadvertently. Someone comes in for a skin cancer checks examining their whole body and I see scraps. But. Patients know that I'm psychiatrist and a dermatologist, and they get referred to me for picking or they seek me out because it's bugging them. Some people pick on areas that are always covered by clothing, so no one else would know. And, it's the people who pick their faces. It's so hard to hide. That is their drugs. Like what would you tell you have a friend or a few? Yourself are listening, and you are one of these people and you just like it's. It's a personality trait, but is there a way to fix that will sure so there are some medicines that make picking worse like all the medicines for adhd like Ritalin although stimulants. Can Start, picking. The people can start picking the side effect. Interesting so that's GonNa make people don't often think about that, and there are other medicines that can make it worse than their medicines that can help make it better. A lot of the antidepressants anti anxiety medications help it not that everyone needs medicine for this, but right if someone's. Listening now realizing, Oh, I kind of do that a lot of close myself in the bathroom in front of my Magnifying Mirror for ten to twenty minutes late for data of late for work, because I've kind of lost track of time in the bathroom. That's a sign oth. Maybe I should talk to somebody about that, and it can be a psychologist or psychiatrist or therapist doesn't have to be dermatologist at first though I often work with a psychologist, if it's a really serious thing for the person, so what about somebody who is very focused about their appearance or Very just just to focused or maybe a little dismore fake. How does somebody know if their thoughts are dismore, Vic and even people? Maybe who listeners podcast, we love beauty. This is something that we do for recreation. This is fun but when do we know if the the thinking becomes a little problematic? How can you kind of diagnose that pretty easy for me to diagnose when someone comes in, but the thing is if a person's at home. Many people with body just Moorefield. Don't have insight into it. Like if you think of Anorexia as an extreme example of by disorder, it's the rare anorectic that knows that he or she has that issue. It often takes someone in their life to point it out to help. You never know sometimes so there are patients who go people who go from plastic surgeon plastic surgeon with a perceived imperfection. That isn't there and sometimes I'll get people operate on them. And since there's no way for a doctor in La to know that the doctor in Chicago has opera, people can hide stuff and go but good thoughtful doctors sitting with the patient. Taking a good history can get can get a good sense of. It's hard with those patients because they really believe that they're right. I gently point out that maybe they think something is really bad or disfigured, but it's not like I. Disagree with them and why? and. It's rare in that moment for the person to say Oh. You're right. Doc like this is fine. You know it's the usually need therapy for, but even like the people who haven't gotten to that level like you know I'm not talking about the the kind of cat woman lady who is like who's been jumping from surgeon to surgeon, maybe like somebody that just kind of a little, a little, too obsessed I mean beauty has gone from something that I think. Think the beauty industry has exploded so much in the past five ten years were now. Everybody's really into it. All Ages everyone and it's it's recreation, and it's fun, but I think a lot of people take it very seriously, and everyone's very into their image. That sits in cell. Phones and everything have become now. Everyone is like as a profile. It's become something that I think it's very easy to I've even questioned myself like my to into this like a my. You know I think I. Have a pretty good grip on myself, but sometimes I wonder like how much mental space does this consume in my brain I think anyone who's who's perceptive can think like how how important is this stuff? So do you find yourself asking that question? Maybe not of yourself, but you know of just people who have walked through your office. I myself to yeah yes. And I think if someone is particularly stressed, they might be ultra focused for that moment on that perceived imperfection, and it just seems bigger and worse, but when I talk to them, it's like Oh relationships. Falling apart works bad I'm not saying there's almost always something behind that symptom, and then that's helpful to figure it out. That's really interesting. Can we talk about when it's not a medical problem? I feel like a lot of. Women men, they talk to each other in this way that I found where they'll like. Your friend will say to you like Oh, I hate my nose or like my skin so wrinkly, and I look at these people and I'm like you look fine. Slash amazing, but I don't want to dismiss their concerns, because clearly their concerns, but I also don't want to offer platitudes, so my questions like how do you talk to someone when they bring you their insecurities about their appearance in a way that isn't. Right, so it's all about empathy, so you might want to be like. Are you kidding me like you look amazing? What is she talking about? But like well? Why do you think that like what's going on in? That might be like. Oh, well I, keep seeing all these photos on instagram of so on the list of few people, and then remind mind that there are filters and photos that they think are just like candidates or not candidates, and just like when I was a kid reading vote magazine thinking. Oh my God, like I'll never look like that well. They didn't look like that. either. Without touch-ups, you know photo shopping, and all that stuff so I think part of it is the barrage of social media in photos videos that are meant to look. Natural, no makeup, and all that like this whole thing about having no pores will then you're not a human like everybody has pores. There's no right, so but people like. My pores are so huge, and then you say you're looking at your skin a magnifying mirror. Yes well. Don't because you don't really look like that, so ask questions I. Think is what you're saying. Don't just be like Oh. You're beautiful. Don't worry about it right because then that person thinks oh. She didn't understand me. She didn't hear me and they just still feel crappy. They feel worse because they still have that feeling about himself. La Think Oh and you don't understand. It's good advice so I read this thing. Was This writer G Tolentino? wrote? She was buying like an exfoliating serum, and she said my buying a car or a cleanser, my buying cleanser. Cleanser or a psychological safety blanket and I was like Oh. That is ringing true to me, I think a lot of women find a lot psychological comfort in buying skincare products and using them it could that be actually true, and like why and how would like having a product? Be Comforting mentally. I think it's totally true. I called hoping a bottle. So does the industry, but like you mean like real mental hope, there is a lot of parts to it so first of all some of these products are expensive, and if so someone spends money on herself. It's a good feeling I was able to buy that for myself. This product is so amazing. I was able to buy I saved up in. It's going to be awesome, so there's I that thought well okay. Do Something Nice for myself. And then the packaging is a beautiful in the marketing, and and you buy into it because it says like. GonNa lift or it's. Going to take years off your, whatever it says, whatever excited to buy it a Mike. What is it? What is it, don't you? A. and. Marketing like there's a whole psychology of marketing, right? It means something until there's placebo effect of I bought something I spent money on it. The more expensive it is, maybe the better it is. And it's special smells good. At Bell's bad, so it must be really good for me. I'm missing all. There's that whole thing. And then if if the product has a nice like censorial feel to it, then there is at experience of applying it and feeling good. This is before. It's even done anything to your skin right, so you've probably lower your cortisol level a bit. You've probably lower your heart rate your blood pressure in an just feeling good, and that's a good moment in whether or not that products really doing anything as long as it's not hurting you. I think that's a that's a real boost and I'm okay with it I. Don't like people to spend their last diamond products like that's terrible, I hear those stories like. To me, but for the most part people don't do that. It's more of that monkey self care like retouching ourself with the serum I totally get it when you were talking. Justice is we're like relaxing? Enclosing I was going to a place I was going to my fantasy bathroom that I've built in my head. Yeah, it's an there's an elevated tub. There are plants all around it. There's a huge double saying happy place that sounds awesome so now that we've all like pictured are perfect bathroom and we wanNA apply all these products in the TUB. You guys just carry on okay. She's in the mental tub. So what are some of the things that you do yourself care with like skincare shore, but also like makeup and hair care so I'm not great with makeup. I've taught myself in. My daughter's taught me a lot of stuff on applying I. Make Pretty Well. How old are your daughters? My daughter's always twenty one and my son Jaden is. Okay and Zoe's like really good at make up and she can do like the perfect is that she learned on Youtube like a few years ago. She's she's sort of can do it in both is perfectly. She did my toes last weekend. which is really much better that stuff that I am, but she's taught me stuff, but. It's funny because I was at tomboy growing up and never were makeup I remember my dad telling me like in seventh grade. You know I think he should start wearing some light blue liner your friend. I've never heard usually the. I don't WanNa wear light blue island, but anyway so it's what's funny. That I've been working with Chanel as their skincare consultant for almost ten years and my friends from high school. Tease me because they're like seriously. Miss Tomboy like Now you're Chanel got into it and I've learned a lot from the Chanel team on all that stuff so I'm i. don't i. don't wear makeup on my face, but I always wear sunscreen on a wear, always moisturizer well. It's funny because in quarantine I stopped wearing any makeup announcing patients, but I'm wearing a mask so. I don't even have to worry about. Blush or anything I just put a little under I conceal her. Mascara I go is only so, what do you have a favorite sunscreen? So during the year? When I'm in the city, I wear the Chanel easy essential fifty guys shaky shaky one the little sugar. Shake it up and it's so cool because it has seventeen point one percent zinc oxide in it, but it rubs in. Really cosmetically elegant, but it's it's a tiny bottle. It's pretty thin and when I'm at the beach. I usually lay her a bunch of sunscreens because my skin is so fair, does that help put like? Is it a different product because they have different light? Yes, Oh, okay, so you're getting. All the wavelengths covered I'm getting all the wavelengths covered, and I'm replying every hour like a crazy person, but look how fair am very fair I am, and I have asthma which is at like darkening of the skin from the sun and birth, control, pill, and pregnant and stuff, and it hates the son, so I have to be really careful so I I have some sunscreens from France they. Mostly. The amphibious ones Laroche. Say but only I only liked the ones from France I. Have Some sunscreen from Australia. One called invisible zinc, and then in the US have got the Shinto on, and then there are some much better zinc ones from the US. Right now like even Vino and Neutrogena makes him zinc sunscreens, zinc blocks UVA and UV rays like. It doesn't cog force story about Oh. Is that why you like zinc? You keep saying zinc, but I was like I wonder why zinc so great. Yeah, zinc is awesome, because it works right away blocks UVA MVP doesn't pores can't be allergic to it. It's a mineral. It's not not bad for coral reefs. We're going to get some zinc for sure before we let you go. Though we do this thing with all of our guests we ask them five quick questions like a speed round pressure. This is this is meant to lower your cortisol levels in. DEEP CHESTS! You want to take it away. Ask The question. I'm ready okay. I feel refreshed. I felt rejuvenated. How is the mental tub? That was nice. It was great I. I'm designing it in my mind I. Don't have a house housecat. Designing this bathroom in my mind that is just for me. It's like completely. All about serenity cannot wait to show you okay. So the famous five questions we always ask. What is the first beauty product you fell in love with I'm such a nerd. It was a body moisturizer because I had really really bad exit and dry skin as a kid. Lamy mom got me this vassil in intensive care. It was called. A formula. Oh my Gosh! That's so great into being. Discontinued it like ten years later? I thought my life was over, but then I gotta fill out the. Beauty product, but it really since I was a kid. I have MOISTURIZER, my body, my face to after the shower of my whole life, so you have to do while the skin is damp, bright. Yeah, just I shower a towel off and the skin just like a sponge in sucks it in, and it only takes one to one and a half minutes to do my whole body, so people say that off time like I've timed it you've you've minute I? We have we have no excuse. Okay. That's always my excuse at the time it got to do. Who is a celebrity that you haven't met? But you just know you'd be best friends with Ruth Bader GINSBURG. I'm dying to meet her and we would totally hit it off. I love it I love this. We haven't gotten her yet and we don't have a lot to do. We don't have a lot of dupes I just love that. You said that okay. What's your most indulgent snack and be specific? Your favorite indulgence neck I would say Mala Mars. The best cookie. Would you put it in the fridge? Sometimes although I don't love the marshmallow and the Graham, cracker getting so hard Oh. We can't find him right now. It's summer they only they only sell stock up now for people around the world, so they don't know the only seldom in the fall and winter because they melt in shipment. If it's warm out for our, Australian and UK listeners go on. Just love. Alamar love milner. Okay? WHAT SONG PUMPS YOU UP Steve Winwood while you see a chance? We haven't gotten that one yet. Hi there, but I'm probably dating my. Now we've got a lot of we've we? We've hit all the errors. We have to start the fat Mascara spotify pup list so I would love that. And what do you want to raise a wand to and by Razor Wand? That is like what kind of what product are you obsessed with? TV show movie whatever it is, so I have an answer for all those but kind of preoccupy right now with black lives matter. I can't think about anything else. Raise the WAN to the movement. Raise onto the Movement for shore. Excellent answer. You've been light. I feel like there was a lot of actionable advice in this interview like a lot of things I'm going to do to to end things for our friends and family that we can help them with. Yeah, this is a great conversation. Thank you so much Dr Wexler. Thanks, Jeff. Thanks Jen for having me. This is great. It is time to raise the wind. Remember when I used to sing. Raise the wand Michael do that for you. Oh! God I got about the singing or listeners, probably like no longtime listeners are like. Please don't please don't okay, so let's raise a one first up. We have a listener. Raise the one with a little commentary to like. We told you last week. Please just call us or send us your voice memos. Whatever you're feeling and thinking this is tricia young. Take it away, Tricia. And, just hi, I'm leaving. You guys a message for the first time I WANNA say. Your podcast is just spot on incredibly amazing I. Am a licensed Aestheticians in the state of Massachusetts and I work in sales in hair care with salons. In Massachusetts, so I started listening you probably right before Cova. And Dry for a living so normally I'd listen to you all day long, but now I just get the pleasure of listening really on my drives to and from the forest where I spend all of my time walking, but I just wanted to let you know I love your podcast and being in the beauty industry. It's always great to hear. About everything, obviously, I have my hands in everything. I read everything one thing I wanted to mention. Is You gotTA CHECK? Out Zits DECA. And yes, I said that with the Boston accent I. Don't have a Boston accent, but it's called zits sticker, and it's brilliant I wish I invented it. It is for a blemish it sticks right onto the the top of the blemish. It has little teeny needles in it, and it pokes into the blemish and feeds really good ingredients to kill and clear up that one blemish. You got to check it out. They're not cheap, but they are rockin amazing, so thanks for all you do. Hopefully you can throw this on one of your podcast and talk about Trish. EON gives you ZITS DECA information. Piece Tricia I love it. I love the way he pronounced it sticker. I can tell you those product. That is really cool. They're not like needles. They're like made of. They're made of the ingredient and they barely hurt. When you put the stickers on, so don't think it's a needle needle, but very good products. Nice, raise a wines. If you guys want to send us your raise, Wan's you can email a voice memo to info at Fat Mascara. Dot Com or you can always call us. Our number is hit jen. One day I'm GonNa make you say six, four, six, four, eight, one, eight, one, eight two, Jess. What are you raising a one two? I am raising a wand to finally a dupe a dupe. Dupe for my discontinued maybelline purple eyeliner, so my God, our biggest link out ever on the blog, so many people have you clicked on this line of the just loves so it was this purple liner for getting the the name of it. Maybe it's like Moonlit, purple or something, but it was It doesn't matter because you can't even buy it anymore, but it was a Shimmery Lilac long wear pencil for maybelline from about two years ago, maybe three years ago, and they. They discontinued it I. Don't know why you guys did. That may lean. I know that I've talked to Claire the publicist on numerous occasions about this and there's nothing there's nothing maybelline can do, but they they said goodbye, and I put it on our instagram, because I was like the last the last stroke in the in the Pencil I did my makeup see a month or two ago, and I said you guys have any dukes while you guys are on the case are FM detectives. I have now my Marc. Jacobs beauty. The, Gel I pencil. I think it's the high liner. In s excellent I pencil lunatic. L. U. N.. Lunatic you I don't love the name guys don't love the name I'm not a lunar nerdy. There's a moon reference and both of them maybelline moonlit purple, and then make it was called Moonlit purple. I might have made up moonlit purple, but it was something purples, just for pretend, and it was the lunatic. It's L.. U. N. A.. comprends tick. It is a lilac with silver sparkle in it, and it sounds like it's made for teens and tweens. It's not. It really looks great on like all. All Ages, it's not to let clubby It's great right now. It really is the ultimate dupe. It's a little too expensive. Those twenty six dollars as also twist up. Those airliners are worth it. Oh, they're good. They don't drag her polar. Skip at all like especially. If you have crappy leads like I'm getting like even with little wrinkles. You can still get a really inside so great, and you don't have to sharpen it. Get The shavings everywhere. It's twist up liner. Love it. Okay, I'm raising a want. To foot file here it is. I brought a visual for you girl. My feet are a mess so between the I've been wearing the cast or the boot whatever for the broken foot. I think because the other foot is now getting harder working because it's carrying the weight of everything, other foot's not working the calluses on the front of my toes I. Don't know if it's also 'cause. It's summer and you could see them more. You know I had the electric file which I use for the bottom, but there was nothing like my second toe there so crooked now my feet. The second toe is bigger than I. Oh, and it just gets this weird callous on top. The only thing that I have found that that works is the Checchi I. Hope I'm pronouncing it right. personal care product razor file. File it's a diamonds laced file. I've had this thing I want to thank I. WanNa say seven years maybe six or seven years, I've never gotten a new file for it. It has never gone down. It's like diamond powder on it, and you just file it in the shower when your feet or damp, and it gets rid of any callous. Even those fancy electronic one I have like doesn't do it the way this thing does so. It's twenty four bucks, but I'm telling you. You never have to replace this thing. It is truly been in my shower for It's probably more than seven years, so raise the. The one to this. I'll put a link with a while. The water's running or after when you're showers done, do it while the water's running at the very end of the shower while it's warm. Because you will get, you'll see. It'll get on it like the little bits of dead skin, so then I wanna keep rinsing under the warm water while I keep going, and it doesn't hurt you know how some of them are just like kind of painful and then the police stones. They're just found. Cut It. Don't cut it I need some of this Checchi Shit. It's good so I'll link out to it's you guys? Guys can have smooth feet all summer them. Thanks, thanks for listening. Our show is produced by astral media. Be Sure to follow us on Instagram at Fat Mascara. GO TO FAT MISCARRIAGE DOT COM to get a link to our private facebook group and hit us up. If you have a beauty question, you can send it to us at Info at Fat Mascara Dot Com. We'd love if you send US voice memo. We also want to hear your reason. Ones send those to the same address INFO at Fat Mascara. Dot Com and if you like what you're hearing, please leave us our view on. Itunes just throw some stars.
SMNTY Classics: Spray Tan Politics
"Hey all so I wanNA talk to you about a new romantic comedy that I'm ridiculously excited about and it's produced by one of my favorites mindy killing four weddings and a funeral a a new Hulu original series. This focuses on the lives of four college friends and they're different relationships and career crisis. I am so excited about watching this. I'm all about good tidings. Thanks ridiculous antics. This is going to be amazing. Relationships are formed and broken political scandals exposed London social life lampooned love affairs ignited doubts of course there are four weddings and a funeral occasion you ron come series four weddings and a funeral now streaming only on Hulu this is Anne and Samantha and welcome to stuff monarchical your production of iheartradio and how stuff works episode comes out in the United States. It's it's summertime and that means ten for me. Never for me no and that up don't because it's not good for you yeah but I mean I guess if you do the eighteen the spray Tan yeah well. We're we're talking about the spray. Tan today are rather Pasco hosts Kristen Carolina because this is classic episode <hes> but we thought that this one would be good one as we as we move more into this summer <hes> ahead for me trying to avoid any any tanning or getting burnt fen swing y'all sunscreen <hes> but where where did this history come from yes. If you're curious you will who find out and we hope that you enjoy angel welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from how stuff works dot com hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm and I'm Caroline's and today on the show to Pale white girls talking about tanning. That's right <hes> my whole life. I have been blindingly white. <HES> UH-HUH MY Scottish Irish heritage would have it no other way <hes>. I am so white that a few years ago I say a few. It was probably like fifteen or ten years ago. My friend's mother saw me in a bathing suit and said Caroline. You are glowing and she didn't say this because I was pregnant. She you know thank God. She said it because I was so white and standing in the sun sounds like she really had a way with words she really did and and so I have since then not because of that but just over the course of my life every summer I buy tanning creams <hes> <hes> yeah not because of the mom no not because of her okay that was just like a part of what I already knew Kristen which is that I'm blinding when you put me in the John. I'm like a mirror. I'm like a reflective surface just beaming light back into space. I mean that's kind of cool yeah. I'm it's basically my superpower and and so I have tried out many a tanning cream and I think I prefer honestly like good old juergens like the lotion that you use to build up a gradual Tan. Listen don't lose your superpower. Though Carolina I mean you could be blinding street. harassers left and right. Someone Whistles honks that you you just rip off your shirt. Look at my forearm so a few weeks ago I hi debuted my spring legs in public for the first time and I thought for I debated all day in my head Ed in this as well embarrassing to admit whether I should take an instagram photo are not just to share with the world because it was truly astonishing shing feel every year yeah looking at myself in the mirror this is this is truly astonishing <hes>. I I got my first spray Tan of her last year. Do Tell you and I were on our way to New York to have our pictures taken in our underwear air. Oh my gosh don't we sound so glamorous Carolina or creepy but this was for dear kate underwear and I got a spray Tan but I made Scheuer for because I am so pasty not to go very dark. I specifically requested like a light. Honey hued spray. Tan just to make sure that I didn't like blend in with the white background of the photo shoot just so that I actually stood out so it didn't just look like a floating tank top like floating bangs tank top and underpants again. It sounds pretty cool the way described but yeah but but I was conscious of I don't WanNa look fake or tacky. I WanNa look like a nice honey. Huge huge suntanned happy healthy version of myself and it looked great. Thanks but I have a question. It might be T._M._i.. I've got a question for you about your spreading experience hands. Yes was it one of those spray. Tan Salons where you have to get completely naked and the person sprays you by a hand yes ma'am. What was that like and did they on your rear? Make you bend over. Oh No yes no so I didn't get fully naked <hes> or naked but I wasn't up to anything so it's really just naked <hes> I stripped down to my underpants and you bloomer loud Luma's and an in a very very nice very nice young woman <hes> sprayed me and you know I have to stay on like I'm in the security. Check at the airport art and instead of you're not like bending all the way over <hes> I'm not GonNa make a bad joke. <hes> I just sort of like pitched forward a little bit like I was losing my balance and that's the way that she got up in there and next thing you knew you were working and it just got awkward. Yeah Yeah. We forgot where you were. I know like I always do so. We have so much to talk about in this tanning episode because because listeners we're gonNA talk about how you get a Tan and melanoma risks and things like that because we have talked about skin cancer and tanning on the podcast before but in this episode we really want to dig into more of the cultural aspects of it why it's popular especially for pasty skinned white ladies eighty s like myself and you but really I mean like I'm I'm in that club too and the class and race issues issues that also are so embedded in our whole tanning culture yeah because I mean forever and ever historically speaking Pale illness <hes> almost translucent skin has been the epitome of beauty and it hasn't been until the last about about century that we've started seeing this kind of cycle of no tanning is prettier no Pale Mrs Prettier <music>. You're not tanning is prettier and it seems like that cycle is speeding up because as Christopher Maher talking about before the podcast before we came into record you have you've Pale beauty but then like the ninety s when we were growing up you also had hyper Tan Britney Spears. You had Christina Aguilera era who was hyper Tan. I went to the tanning bed when I in my senior year of high school regularly yes. I got real basic that you but now I mean it seems like and I mean I guess it depends on and I mean we'll we'll flesh rush this out a little bit more in the episode in it depends on your social group. What is considered most attractive in normal it depends on the magazines and media you consume. What's what's considered messed attractive and beautiful but I feel like you've got some people who want to achieve the you know Jessica Alba glow which which is not so much a glover as it's hurt literal skin color and then you've got other people who look at super translucent high fashion models and that's more what they aspire to now. We got to be honest so caroline before we came into the PICA studio. You're arguing that the Jessica Alba <hes> beyond say Kim Kardashian who by by the way these are all like wildly different skin tones but that the more honey hued look as it would be described is the end look now yes and as we talked about it. I think it like I was saying I think it depends on on what is normal and beautiful around you so for instance depending on like I said your social group or what your friends look like that normalizes whatever the beauty standard is <hes> but also it it looks like it depends on age groups too as we'll talk about out later in the podcast because by and large the people who are going to tanning beds and are committed to tanning like once a month at least tend to be younger women and statistically a lot of them are in sororities which is really interesting so this could be just an issue like achieving in color wise of different age and socioeconomic groups. Yeah I mean so and listeners I really want you to weigh in on this because I contended that the popularity of of say beyond say and Kim Kardashian has little to do with skin in color and as it relates to tanning has little to do with skin color and more to do with body shape and how are like beauty ideals in terms of <hes> the quote unquote sexiest female shape has changed you know more toward <hes> those kinds kinds of body shapes because I don't think that any like white sorority girls are going to the tanning bed so that they can look like beyond say and if they are. I'm a little concerned about them to be completely honest yeah I I yes. Do you have people who have maybe tanning obsessions guests that is a thing people who get addicted to tanning is your average girl who's in sorority addicted to tanning so she can look like beyond say probably not <hes> but the very fact that that could be a possibility that oh <hes> white people like a can get in a tanning bed get in the sun getting the Spray Tan booth and play around with our color and achieve social status us as a result of it also speaks to a lot of privilege to that. We're going to get into yeah because it's not like beyond. Sake and get into a spray Tan Hanan get like a white look. She can't get the millstone yeah exactly and I you know that's that's sort of leads us into the conversation of black women enjoying tanning as well. It's not like this is just for white sorority girls to enjoy or to pursue <hes> but I mean it hasn't always been like that for black women either in general of course we're speaking in general terms the embracing of not only do. I have the skin color yeah but you know in the summer I WANNA get bronze to this isn't just like a white girl thing and that is exactly the theme of pretty much any blog post or article call written by like a woman of color about tanning like the headline is usually in all caps. Yes black women do Tan and we can get Tan. I mean there's even this notion that African Americans aren't even capable of tanning which I don't really understand because that demonstrates the person doesn't understand how like Maulana sites work and skin pigment and how we react to the sun but it's not just an issue of possibly you know your skin darkening as a result of being in the sun but actually wanting to get that look at that right bronzed glow yeah and I mean hello. We've been reading. I've been reading women's magazines forever that Tau Tanning real or fake you know tanning beds sun or sun cream as a way to hide flaws conceal sell. Ulli make yourself look a little thinner or whatever or just like you've been don't vacation <hes> which again ties into the whole like class and leisure thing which will get into <hes> but yeah again this is that is a driving force for a lot of people no matter your ethnicity. I have a one of my best friends is Korean and I realized one of my best friends is Korean <hes> <hes> it's not like that and every summer she just she loves tanning. She loves to get Lebron's look and she was telling me about how some of her friends back back home. We're like you know. Why do you need to get darker. You're already like bays. You know you're fine and but she loved getting this. Tan Lines in the summer getting a little darker getting a little color color so that you don't look as she put it like sick when you go back from summer vacation yeah I mean because of course in Asia. It's far likelier that the beauty ideal is to be as Pale as possible. You'll see your women walking around with umbrellas and big hats on shading the sun as much as possible but I do WanNa get back really quickly to black women tanning for a minute because this definitely is going to tie into our next next podcast which is all about color them <hes> in a having imposed blog about yes. Black girls also Tan Melissa. Lisa Henderson wrote something that jumped out to me she wrote black girls tend to these girls are not one type of people is just putting color as them in another our category letting other morals take precedence in one's life so whether you choose to Instagram your Tan or prefers sitting poolside tanning tanning is a beautiful thing and that insistence that yes we tan and also hey. It's totally fine mine and not weird at all that we would wanNA. Tan is another theme that you see in a lot of <hes> these blog posts in particular like first person pieces about it <hes> for instance there was a piece over at black girl long hair talking about <hes>. I think it was a beauty blogger who a few years ago put up a side by side of her before and after getting a spray Tan and <hes> it was on youtube and half the comments. Were really supportive of saying. Oh you know I I was about to do the spray Tan too. I'm glad to see that it looks good etcetera etcetera and then the other half being completely dumbfounded ended as to why on Earth would you want to be darker you you look so much better with lighter skin and that question though which the blogger raised in relation into that of is at seeding a quote unquote privilege we'll talk about more in the next episode that comes with lighter skin and how like strange aged might seem but the reasons for for tanning and wanting to to play around with maybe a fake tanner spray tans things like that are the same reasons that a lot of us are interested in getting a little bit of a Tan because it often even evens out your skin tone it can mask <hes> a cellulite and other quote unquote flaws and blemishes and also laying out in the sun is we'll talk about more. I mean it's just it feels good. physiologically releases release all this happy chemicals. Yeah I get that Vitamin D so which is not a euphemism so I feel like it's pretty racist to assume that <hes> black women in particular should not WanNa Tan and that it would be weird if they did yeah well I mean but there's so many interesting thing <hes> class discussions to be had when it comes to tanning and color because where is that line you know we when we look at someone who's got a nice you know quote. Unquote Natural Tan and we're like ooh. She looks rested and healthy. Is that what you thought when you saw my calves cavs couple of weeks. I was like this cavs. Look so healthy. Look like they've been hibernating. All winter been on vacation can see the patches of really long long hair the guy in my first shave of the season. I like to picture a conger hibernation. You're just like hold up. With like some glamour magazines a laptop some like Granola but then clearly we enter a different arena of class discussion and appropriateness when we get to people like snooky who once told an interviewer that her ethnicity is Tan and someone who like Tan mom. Do you remember this woman do how she has legitimate addiction issues does she legitimately has mental health issues and she got in a lot of trouble because she took her like four year old to a tanning salon but she literally was the color uh of my leather laptop bag that I carry around and now I was just reading an update on her. She has moved from being being addicted to tanning to now being obsessed with Bo talks so like that's a whole different issue but this is something that William Lou who's the author of the book Social Class and and Classism in the helping professions writes about he talks about this spectrum of like tanning being okay or not okay or signifying in class or not so you've got stereotypes about people with quote unquote rednecks or farmers Tans and he's he writes about how in our minds in popular imagination origination this equates to white trash people who do manual labor outside. Who aren't you know part of the Leisure class who aren't going to hop on a cruise ship and so he asks if a demarcated Tan is a sign of lower class? What is it all body Tan represent? Oh I mean it means that it's intentional that you were going out and tanning assuming I guess you're at all like a nude beach or you went to a tanning bed of it's like an all body Tan <hes> but yeah I think it is totally different and that absolutely resonates to caroline with being raised in the south because that that whole quote unquote redneck division between Classy and trashy is very much alive and well and I remember when when I was a kid <hes> my my parents <hes> how does do yard work pretty much every weekend which was so fun always <hes> and during the summertime sometimes I would get the so called farmers tans and I would be embarrassed by it because it would mean oh kristen wasn't at the pool with all the other kids she he was out picking up six pine cones and mowing the lawn did you did you ever name the Pine cones. Did you keep any as pets only a few only if only Stephen Only Stephen and Richard. Let's don't forget Jennifer the pinecone Jennifer difficult yeah well no I I remember you know friends having usually boys having like a farmer's Tan so to speak because they'd be wearing t-shirts around or whatever whatever and to me back then as a kid that would just mean like Oh. You haven't been to the pool yeah you've been. You've I've been running around doing other things not playing but I mean in like my little childhood perception that was already so classicist in the way that I saw the quote Unquote rednecks and I'm saying quote unquote because saying Redneck does I mean it's such a pejorative <hes>. I don't think it's a very a very nice term <hes> because it is connected to the whole white trash concept and it does in my mind it takes me straight to counties right outside of where I grew up that were much more rural and people tend to spend a lot more time outside and that super-duper Tan to the point of being read. Luck is a byproduct of maybe doing labor outside. Maybe working if you're on a farm arm but also a look that the girls will cultivate to let's consider the secret life of the innermost nesting doll living most of her life in the dark inside the other nesting dolls. He has plenty plenty of time to think if recovered sadly she has no brain however when in a most nesting doll here's the GEICO not only saves people money but also has been providing a great service for over seventy five years. She thinks it's obvious you should switch because yes switching to gyco is a no brainer in most nesting dollond her lot in life and I think all of that demonstrates what William Lou is talking about when he wrote how quote tanning becomes another venue for performing and demonstrating social class. Both I think in the the act of tanning yourself and also how we interpret other people's tans yeah because someone like Snooky okay for instance. Let's just she's easy to pick on and using it as an example but like to someone who flips through the pages of Vogue Doug snooky might look trashy because of her choice of tanning depth and I will say because I do follow her on instagram caroline that she has has eased up on a tanning well but she is clearly performing and displaying her definition like we've talked the very very top of the podcast about the difference between what you want to achieve in terms of color and why but she's clearly performing her version of classy and attractive totally I mean same thing with the the dudes on Jersey shore who would go and get their spray Tan. What does it Jim Gym Tan Laundry Gym laundry Tan Dan Oh Yeah Jim was one of them named for? Jim was like really bad like a tagline. I I think there's G._T._l.. Gym Tan Laundry. Oh Man I just wanted to about like random like bookish Jim that we'd never saw on Jersey. Shore didn't fit in at all. I never went to to the tanning bed but let's why are we happened to why this is even a thing because like you said historically speaking it's bizarre that we like collectively would even attempt to darken our skin because for missed of beauty history Pale was where it was at. I mean that's a cross cultural thing too but I mean we would apply like potions on our skin to get as porcelain a look as possible yeah and that was because Pale skin was supposedly a mark of beauty and wealth and refinement whereas tanned skin met you are a peasant and <hes> you were those monty python characters in the mud toiling away at manual labor. <hes> not to mention dark skin was of course I looked down upon because of the littoral racism aspect the literal hatred and racism against Brown and black bodies <hes> <hes> and women would maintain their Pale nece with parasols large hats bleaching treatments and heavy powders not to mention lead based creams that dated back to ancient Greek and Roman times and in the renaissance. I thought this is so funny European women and withdraw blue lines on their faces to make their skin look translucent sounds so hard to do. I mean I mean I feel like contouring today. It's really challenging to Paula but try vein contouring. I I know what are you. What are you even what kind of beauty blender could achieve that look? I'm just saying Caroline. Line and Literature was in on the game to Milky Skin has always been hailed as height of beauty and purity folks like Shakespeare wrote sonnets praising it it and early topical son protected when you when you look at the ingredients it really takes me back to our makeup artist episode Kristen when we talked about the crazy history of pancake makeup before Max factor came along you've got things like White Petra Latam or almond oil mixed with a heavy powder made of things like magnesium zinc oxide or bismuth so sounds really good for the poor's I really slather that on. We'll sounds like <hes> but we start to see though tanning slowly becoming a marker of social class and wealth with the industrial revolution because around eighteen fifty we start transitioning from the working class being outside to them being inside in the factories so understandably you have tan skin beginning to emerge as a sign of the leisure class you have the time I'm to be outside. You can travel I mean if we go to F Scott Fitzgerald's nineteen twenty two the beautiful and the damned which was set in nineteen fourteen and fifteen eighteen his upper-crust characters talk about how to best achieve a Tan hell yeah man his characters in his books. Just love the beach don't they God bad west Egg Tanning Leonardo di caprio cheers with champagne GIF still have yeah that's all I know from that movie I still have I think that's all you need to know yeah. Okay okay good. It's it's a really effective gift in a lot of situations and yes I do say it with a hard G. Write me a letter <hes> but you know not. Everybody is on board. Necessarily necessarily some people are still worried. You've got a little bit of benevolent sexism going on in nineteen o five Dr Charles Edward would drift wrote in his book the effects sex of tropical light on white men which is that a Prequel to tropic of cancer well no literally yes because sunlight light is a precursor to melanoma. Oh my gosh look what we really extended Pun and I am proud of us we should be you should be anyway so woodruff wrote. The American girl is a bundle of nerves. She is a victim of too much light but he would prove to be in the minority because what helped bring aside from just you know the lower classes moving into the factories what helped bring a Nice Tan and ice flush in into popularity. was you know the entire frigging medical community yeah so in the early twentieth century doctors started realizing using how sunlight and the vitamin D that we get from it can be really healthy for us particularly to treat to Berkeley Closys us and records and it's one of those old time you diseases that Yes Carolina. I did have to Google to make sure understood what Ricketts is essentially. It's a a bone softening disorder. Yeah 'cause you don't get enough of that vitamin D Vitamin D but also you're not getting enough nutritious foods. You're not getting enough calcium. <hes> <hes> it would often kids with Ricketts would often have horrific problems with their legs being misshapen so you get this this rush of the medical community <hes> basically prescribing sunshine to people which sounds really nice but people were winning Nobel prizes over it in nineteen. Oh three neal's neal's fencing won the Nobel Prize in medicine by treating skin ulcers caused by lupus vulgarity which is a condition linked to T._B.. With helius therapy be in that same year in Switzerland we get the first hospital treating circulars as with sun exposure opening and Dr Start to figure out the scientific basis of Hilo therapy in the nineteen twenties when they discover U._v.. Lights role in creating vitamin D and then for another Nobel Prize in Nineteen Twenty eight we we have Adolf Windows' earning the Nobel prize in chemistry for linking Vitamin D with rickets treatment and I mean sunlight was seen seen as a preventive measure to kids were sent to prevent Toria Mhz which I love it. I know I wanna go which were institutions that provided sick Kiddos with good food fresh air and sunlight like I do want to go to there so they basically sent them to summer camp but fancier and more relaxing no color wars and good food less pressure than having to like swim the lifeline <hes>. Let's bring back the prevent Oreo Dude it. I'm all for it. <hes> which really sounds like I need to build a greenhouse outside of the office and guests sitting at for a couple of hours order pizza right totally of take my lactate I in nineteen eighteen thirty eight Herman Bundy's son who was the president of the Chicago Board of Health really emphasized how important sunlight was for children <hes> he said no deficiencies as the developing children are of greater significance than those caused by lack of sunlight. I would argue there are some bigger problems that kids could face but you know the sunlight caroline he continued on he said when it shines on a child at helps his bones and teeth to form properly and promotes the quality and circulation of his blood. The Sun Bath is just as important as the water bath which reminds me of our betty page episode because Betty paid for such a fan of <hes> <hes> sun baths in the new has well and that does kind of tie in to our next fact about how sunlight starts becoming prescribed described as treatments for all kinds of things including anemia syphilis heart disease cancer which will ironic their stomach problems problems also issues with hormones arthritis skin and Vaginas yeah and I'm just wondering what the exact helium therapy prescription would be for for your vagina yeah. You can't use the phrase where the sun don't shine anymore yeah because it's like do you D- Try to get sunlight on the vagina I because that would be hard because I think they mean vulva and I just have a lot of questions I yeah when you talk about solving gynecological problems with the sun. What exactly are you referring due to just put you vulva under a heat lamp? All your problems will go away but you know not. Everybody was onboard the New England Journal of Medicine in Nineteen Twenty eight editors reviewed the book ultraviolet Rays in the treatment and cure of disease and they dismissed it as really nothing more within a giant ad for U._V. Lamps and said they hoped the quote unquote lady did not get their hands on it but any concerns regarding skin cancer at this time were ignored any concerns about this stuff just being a bunch of fancy snake oil were ignored and all were outweighed by the perceived benefits. Oh Yeah esteemed medical journal The Lancet declared in one thousand nine hundred ten the face Brown by the sun is regarded art as an index of health and note though I mean like we can you can peel apart so many layers in just in that statement of the face Brown by the son good not the case if you're born with the brown phase and not so good yeah the face Brown by genetics that was not they didn't include that so therefore you get a Tan that means you're in good health which means you're beautiful. Yeah and speaking of beauty we gotta get over to to fashion and hop to the lady who in pretty much any popular history of tanning that you read we'll be cited as the one responsible responsible for getting us all to the beach and sun burning ourselves accidentally Coco Chanel of course she she of the tweed and pearls and Nazi sympathising true yeah. That's everything you love is problematic. <hes> in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine Ms Chanel. L. Caught a little bit too much sun while cruising around the French Riviera as you do see it do you can't help it and her take on it. Shrug a girl simply has to be ten an and a Golden Tan is the index of Sheikh and we were looking at a study that analyze ads and articles in Harper's bazaar and vogue and it was astonishing to see the upswing just between like nineteen twenty seven and nineteen twenty nine and the number of tanning related ads and also tanning related articles <hes> Then to have every low backed costume cut exactly on the same lines so that each one makes perfect frame for a smooth brown back <hes> yeah I mean swimsuit. Are they talking about clothes or swimsuits. I don't know I mean I think they're just saying like avoid Tan lines and and and get get a Tan you pasty white jerks I mean we'll because I asked that because over the course of the twenties and thirties as we have stats people swimsuits were shrinking skin exposure jumped from eighteen percent for women and twenty three percent for men to a scandalous this forty seven percent of this skin exposed. Oh Man it'd be nice if swimsuits still just revealed forty seven percent of our skin so the same year her British vogue declared the backlog say okay. Don't you know <hes> American vogue had a four page spread describing clothes makeup up and accessories to best showoff tanned skin and they said from a chic note sunburn became a trend then an established established fashion and now the entire Feminine World Is Sunburn Conscious Yeah similarly in the same year June Harper's bazaar had an issue titled Dole. Shall we Gild the lily which began with the assertion there is no doubt about it. If you haven't tanned look about you you aren't part of the rage of the moment well and who is the audience for these magazines wealthy white women women who can afford to change out there fashion go to the beach or wherever they might be to have the rage of the moment look and it really only increases races as people have more disposable income I mean the tanning fad is really inextricably linked with socio economics yeah but I mean I mean again. The people who are reading these high fashion magazines being those fair skinned upper class white ladies are the ones who shouldn't be unprotected in the sun and so at this time the same time that we're seeing this backlist trend in this tanning trend take off were also so collecting growing evidence in the medical community that you've irradiation leads to tumor growth in animals and you get more studies that associate U._V. Rays as with skin cancer in humans and by the nineteen fifties we're seeing this huge increase in melanoma which continues to rise throughout the twentieth century and Non Melanoma Skin cancer becomes the most common cancer in the world in the twentieth century but that doesn't stop anyone from getting out in the Sun. Yeah I mean because who doesn't want to be the rage of the moment that weighed against cancer. I mean come on. I think that I think vogue wins. Obviously you gotta die of something right. Oh God this podcast just got so bleak yeah totally so let's go to France. Oh Oh yeah for a paid vacation. <hes> France introduced paid vacations in the thirties and by the forties this had spread and you see increased increase travel outdoor activities and pop culture. That's even more favorable to tanning also revealing clothes and swimsuits and you probably see this permeating sing pop culture as well whether it's films that take place on the beach and show men and women around pools being glamorous and their swimsuits <hes> <hes> or of course you know you have your fashion magazines that are teaching you exactly how you should look well. In nineteen forty-three hello war fabric rations ocean's meant that women's swimwear had to shrink by ten percent and this swimsuit shrinkage opens the door to something you and I talked about on the podcast before Kristen the eventual invention of the Bikini in one thousand nine hundred ninety six which this leaves eighty percent of your your skin open 'til The sun and so you've got so much more skin to Tan so many more outfits to feature all of that non genetic brown skin and listen during World War Two ladies were busy rows of the rivers didn't necessarily have time to go the beach and go get a Tan directly from the sun so during the war women would actually rely on teabags to stain their skin and apparently in Britain there was some marmite ish sounding paste or Bouillon that they would use they would soak their legs in that people soup people soup. We're just making people soon. They soak their legs thousand soil and green and now it just sounds like let's fill up the hot tub. Throw in some Bouillon cubes and let's all go for a soak yeah. It's horrifying again. This podcast got so done yeah exactly panning so in the fifties though in the in the post World War Two era where like hey hey the G._i.'s are coming home. You probably already have a Tan because he'd been outside a lot but let's let's replicate that Trench Tan yes <hes> you have man Tan in the fifties which is the first commercially available self tanner I believe for men specially designed for men which specially designed as in quotes because it's probably the exact same thing as what was being sold to women but maybe smell differently and it promised to be moisturizing and long lasting yeah just smells like pine entries and cigarettes who was like Don Draper's office oppression by the nineteen sixties. You know we've we've seen gene the the the subtext here is the rising middle class the rise of leisure the rise of vacations and so by the nineteen sixties people have enough money to enjoy color film so you better look good and commercial air travel and by the seventies the the world economy was tanking. Thanks war <hes> sunless tanning really takes takes the place of all of those Mediterranean vacations that people in Europe specifically. We're taking nineteen. seventy-eight tanning beds get introduced and the first one which I never for new in the U._S.. Open's Arkansas Walmart and tanning beds Arkansas listeners hey and if you jumped in one thousand nine hundred one you've got about ten new tanning centres opening in the U._S.. Each week by nineteen eighty eight in the the U._S. alone. You have eighteen thousand tanning centers. Oh Yeah it's a lot of tanning and typically like nowadays nowadays you look around and tanning there. They are next to Walmart's you've got like a Walmart and a nail place and a tanning place and a radio shack the radio shack yeah yeah. I like my dad. I think there's some still open okay because Chad goes there. Someone let us know about Radio Shack yeah growing coming up in a college town there or tanning salons everywhere everywhere but I feel like now caroline where we are her in town in Atlanta. We're likely to see more spray Tan outlets than we are ending bed spots or places. This is the do both yeah yeah. I don't know I'm just kind of talking about well. I mean I think I don't know from what I've observed in kind of <hes> boozier neighborhoods. You're likely likelier to see Spray Tan yeah well. I mean more class issues that we can dive into Oh yeah. It doesn't stop people it don't stock at Sunscreen won't protect you against the rest of this episode because we're not done in the nineteen eighties. You've got all of that glamorous like eighties. He's crazy makeup which includes a lot of bronze irs so the popularity of Bronze Irs <hes> economic boom times mean people are taking those glamorous beach getaway packages is which essentially means that tanning remains a necessity through the next couple of decades and by the year two thousand <hes> British people in a survey. Ah Fifty percent of them said that getting a Tan was the most important reason for going on vacation. Oh Yeah I mean I I remember so well laying out on my parents patio because we didn't have a pool membership and just sweating and sweating and wedding and trying to enjoy it. I remember reading the unabridged. Les Lee Ms One summer because it was reading for like my A._p.. English Class Humble Brag and just baking myself off outside yeah well. I remember laying win. I hit puberty and had some really bad skin issues. I was encouraged to get some sun to help the the zits go away little. Did I know that while 'cause we we talked about this in our acne episode that well yes the Sun can help fade some of those acne marks. It actually makes them kind of come back with a vengeance because the sun inflames the skin and any corrective active like quote unquote treatment the Sun has for acne is really more effective on that youthful acne not so much for the adult hormonal acne so jokes folks on me and my fine lines and wrinkles and the sun can be such a jerk sometimes such a Jersey sometimes but speaking of age differences we have a lot more information to cover and we want to dive into some demographics and all of that class issue stuff that we've been hinting at when we come right back from from a quick break get a lot of emails about coal case all the time and usually when I look at a story yeah I can tell the first five minutes what probably happened but this is really strange. I'm Katherine Townsend host of the true crime podcast Helen gone hours asking people what's wrong what's wrong and we got into the sheriff's Office. He said James Dan no explanation. Janey Ward was sixteen eighteen years old when she died under mysterious circumstances she was at a party at a cabin in the woods in the small town of Marshall Arkansas story that she fell off my daughter would be today. I'm heading back to Arkansas on a new case to find out what happened to Jamie Ward on September ninth nine hundred eighty nine listen to hell and gone. That's H.. E. L. L. and gone on Apple podcasts casts or on the iheartradio APP or wherever you get your podcasts and now back to the show so as I mentioned at the top of the podcast the number one tanning demographic is specifically when we're talking about doc tanning beds are white girls young white girls yeah that's right. <hes> studies have shown that white teen girls a higher socio economic status are the most likely to Tan both indoors and out and I'm going to admit I I was actually surprised by the higher socio economic status aspect of that and and maybe that's Judgy of me and I certainly don't want to sound like I'm passing judgment but I I do feel like I nowadays read in magazines and blogs so much about protecting your skin an and not tanning either in a tanning booth or outside stick to self tanners. If you WANNA get darker <hes> there was just like my gut when I read that stat was like Oh. I didn't realize there was such a drive but then again this is possibly due to an age each difference thing yeah I mean rich girls aren't necessarily smarter about their skin. They can probably afford a dermatologist and good makeup but if they they are for instance in a sorority. There's a pretty good chance that they will also Tan I mean I think it's also like you're. You're in group beauty standards. If everyone going around you has a Tan then you're probably going to get called the pale girl that's not from personal experience. Although I've been called the Pale girl but that is my experience so there's probably a little bit of a peer aspect in there and it takes disposable income to ten. I remember when I tend my senior year of high school which I know I'm going to regret like already with certain freckles that I have <hes> I had to pay for it myself. My parents were like we're not going to pay for this for you and it was pricey. I should've saved my money caroline but young kids. I know I didn't not to sound like an old but they don't know better in terms of feeling invincible. Oh totally my mom warned me every single summer. Because all I wanted was a tan so that I could look you know to get that social credit that comes with it every single time she would warn me about getting getting sunburned and sun damage as in her generation you would sit out with the those foil reflective plates sally used baby baby oil. Oh Yeah so dance yeah yeah I can't imagine speaking as someone who fell asleep face down on the beach one time time and like couldn't wear real clothes for the rest of the summer because my back was so blistered yeah like I'm going to have to answer for that at at some point because I don't want to keep going on and on but the reason that you now are seeing more and more states passing regulations against a younger and younger people visiting tanning tanning booths is because that early sun damage early early leg early teens especially blistering sunburns is a super major major significant predictor of skin cancer not to mention just all of the wrinkles and sunspots that you're GonNa get and so it's kind of frightening when you read that a two point three million teens use tanning booths tanning indoors every year and they're probably vaping while they do it these days fading and the C._D._c.. In May of twenty eleven found that it's interesting to regionally they found that the people the women tanning the most we're in the Midwest and the south. I'm so not surprised from eighteen to twenty five and for most of these people men and women alike it was a regular habit these the people reported going to a tanning bed ten or more times in the past year and they're likely supplementing. They're tanning bed experience kristen. You talked about seeing a lot more spray. Okay tanning places the things go hand in hand. People who use self tanners are two and a half times more likely to use tanning beds and get five five or more sunburns during the summer so these are clearly people who are hyper focused on changing the color of their skin well those people could I'd say listen. I've got research to back up my tanning habit because it makes me look more attractive. There is a June twenty twelve study in the journal Pediatric Health which found that our motivations for tanning tend to do with looking better and young people also cited relaxation sation mood enhancement because it does release those endorphins and also socializing. There's the peer influence aspect you WANNA bid in <hes> and it also also cited a study of college students that found that what their friends thought and the desire to appear attractive had more to do with it than China desire to look healthy and that's really no surprise yeah I was praised as a child. It's so sick <hes> but but sally definitely I remember you know I'd come up from the beach each as a young kid and hop out of the shower and my mom would be like Oh sweetie you are Brown as a berry and she thought it looks so good it on her on her Pale little child and I was like yeah I'm hot. I mean I didn't I self tanning behaviors. I mean this that does Hearken Back to Jersey Shore Gym Tan Laundry Yeah but I mean at least they're neat right. They're doing their laundry shapely and the thing is as we whether we are actively tanning ourselves or not do perceive tanned faces as prettier. This was some research surfboard on by A._B._C. News. <hes> there was a study out of emory university which used Ho man real throwback website hotter not posting pictures of the same person but with one version Tan and one version Pale and the tanner version received AH twice as high of an attractiveness rating compared to the poem Yeah Dr Audrey Kuhnen who's a dermatologist and founder of Dermot. Dr Inc told A._B._C. News that yeah I mean I hate it but basically people think Tan folks are more attractive and healthier looking and it's super hard to get somebody okay to stop doing something that makes them feel better especially younger people she says younger folks have a hard time seeing themselves as getting older and having to deal with these risks risks I know I did. I was like I look great now. What's the issue but then you you know you do look around and you look for that? <hes> there's something about out Mary character on the beach and let that be let that serve as a warning of the ghost of Christmas Tan Future Tan go Christmas sunburned earned well yeah and and Mark Leary who's a professor of psychology and neuroscience at Duke Basically says the yeah the Tan has not lost that Chanel significance Reagan's <hes> even though it's one hundred years old. She says we just he says we just haven't lost it. As a signifier of Leisure Class Yet and autumn Whitfield Medrano friend of the podcast writer of the beheld focuses a lot on beauty issues she says not only does it serve as a sign of affluence and health but it's also the perfect accessory. She says it's the sweet spot between conspicuous an inconspicuous consumption option. Yeah I loved her description as it being the ultimate expression of Oh this whole thing and it's true yeah I mean I totally agree with the <hes> do professor that it's still a marker of Leisure class and all of those all those issues I think are still embedded pretty pretty deeply within it. Whether you are getting a tan out in the sun or going to get a spray Tan because also I think the very seasonality of it supports the class element yeah because like I have definitely looked at Tan friends before you know you come in Monday okay and you've got a little bit of color. I've definitely looked at Tan friends before and thought like Oh man you had time to go to the pool this weekend and you know for me like I could probably be out for five minutes in term beet red. I'm so fricken Pale and shiny but just the idea of like Oh God you had time to like sit down by a body of water water. Maybe you read a book like fantasize about leisure time like maybe you had time to read a book and have a cocktail and enjoy the sun and some conversation station. Maybe a beach ball was involved or some floaters that sounds wonderful but on the flip side if someone shows up in the wintertime and again this is this has been a super white conversation and I'd say that this is another white observation. If someone shows up in the summertime or in the winter excuse me when we're supposed to be all pasty and she's Super Tan or he's Super Tan because I have a gentleman friend who tans in the winter as well. It is usually perceived a little more trashy she then classy I would argue. What are you trying to prove yeah like <hes> I don't know about I don't know about that and I wish there were more studies on that whole that line line right that we we did listeners like try to find some scholarly insight on that whole tanning spectrum classy to quote unquote trashy crashy because it's very much there but it doesn't make a ton of sense yeah so anyway scholars listening if you eh the Anita study there's one but going back to the very beginning of our conversation where he mentioned the Tan mom there can be some mental until health issues associated with tanning obsession? You know the person who has to be Tan <hes> that same paediatric health study we just cited found that thirty percent percent of young people showed a level of tanning dependents similar to other Substance Abuse Addictions Yeah and a Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology did you study from two thousand fourteen found links between excessive tanning and body dismore vic disorder and O._C._D.. And those things make sense to me I mean mean like body just Norfolk disorder a lot of times that shows up as obsessions with weight but you also see that translating into Obsessive Plastic Surgery Obsessive Bo talk so it makes sense that tanning would be linked with that. It's also according to a twenty twelve behavioral medicine study linked with Higher Appearance Orientation and depression so appearance orientation meaning just a hyper focus on your appearance and it makes sense though that people who are hyper focused on their appearance are going to do things like we mentioned <hes> that they perceive will make them more attractive and as for the depression link which mainly they found was associated faded with indoor tanning researchers right that users could be unknowingly self medicating to feel that relaxation effect that rush of endorphins and so researchers wonder whether depressive symptoms might inhibit people from wanting to go hang out on a beach in a bathing suit and instead opt opt to do indoor tanning privately get that boost of endorphins because conversely found people with better body image were more likely to go sunbathe outside around a a million people rather than just stay indoor tanning yeah I mean and further researches found that while we might be likelier to ignore those cancer warnings women are very much vigilant about the suns aging effects because Oh my gosh if we're talking about beauty standards standards mean women who look older are usually devalued in that way right and so I mean I think that kind of holds the key in terms of deep tanning being a trend and how do you break skin cancer from trending <hes>. Unfortunately a lot of that doesn't go oh to like hey you might be one of those statistics who get skin cancer and dies because researchers have found that that backfires it seems like kind of the key perhaps to anti tanning and skin safety campaigns really lies in like hey you're gonna be wrinkly and then you're not going to be pretty. You're not going to be pretty so watch out where a wide brimmed hat and the good thing is hats are very in right now but we also have the government stepping in because we obviously can't abstain from this very unhealthy habit so so at this point twelve states actually ban tanning bed use for people under eighteen and forty two states regulate tanning bed use by miners in general <hes> sunlamps now have to carry black box warning saying that people under eighteen shouldn't use them although I mean really any age shouldn't shouldn't that be a thing kind of like you know well warnings on cigarette EXAC- well that's the logic. It's exactly like the warning on cigarettes because unless you're what was it California who just raise the age to twenty one for buying cigarettes. I think California was California but like Georgia for instance like fourteen is the minimum age for using using tanning beds but you have to be accompanied by a parent blows. My mind does that have anything to do with like are like high number of competitive cheerleading squads. I don't know what it is. In Georgia I recently learned you can also get married at sixteen with parental consent so there's just a lot of issues here <hes> but okay in two thousand ten on the Affordable Care Act included a ten percent tax on indoor tanning services and a high. Didn't I missed this whole news trend on. Maybe it was just like the more conservative side of the Internet. Apparently a lot of people said you know what Obama that's racist at is a racist tax folks because white people are primarily the ones who uses indoor tanning beds and that ain't flying Obama. We got you on this one. Thanks thanks Obama. Thanks Obama yeah that sound you heard when Christian was talking with my brain exploding <hes> yeah there was an Atlantic article because there's one on everything there was one on tanning and the politics of it and they did talk to a tanning salon exac who was just outraged outraged by the federal regulations encroaching on Americans rat to use Tannin beds. Well also do a mid western Accent Carolina. It's not just the south. I don't know if I can can you oh no but I have a feeling that what we'll be a far more powerful force than the F._D._a.. To steer US away from tanning and damaging our skin is the fashion World Coco Coco Chanel is the one who brought it in vogue then it's probably gonna take a comparable fashion magnate to get it out vogue and some would argue that that's already taking place you have Verena von Felton who was the editor in chief of style light in two thousand was an eight way back. When now saying Tan is the new tacky comparing them to a eggs yeah bits I mean really honestly half of the post was just about her hatred of ugh boots <hes> but also she she doesn't like <hes> tans associating them with more of a Jersey shore type culture and then a little more more recently in two thousand thirteen U._S._A.? Today said that coppertone complexion isn't looking so fresh the summer season and I mean even just among anecdotally early conversations with my lady friends it might be partially an issue of welcome to thirty but yeah we are far more into complementing each other's fair skin tones and slathering on sunscreen wearing wide-brimmed tat's <hes> certainly more than we used to be yeah. I I need to be so much better about wearing daily sunscreen. I'm great about it if I'm going to the pool going for a hike anything like that you know extended outdoor exposure but I am so bad about the day to day sunscreen use. That's just why I carry a ski. Mask with me is pop that on anytime I got the thing with women in China that was also mentioned in some of the articles we read and that was not so much an issue of of I wanNA look like a white person but again related to the issue of the Paler skin is a marker of breeding high class status whereas the darker skin in China still signifies outdoor Labor in Caroline. I think that segues perfectly not into our next episode which is going to be sort of the flip side of all of this conversation about color ISM because all of these elements we've been talking about in terms of of the socio-economic racism et Cetera that played a part in today's conversation <hes> are sort of a foundation for what we're going to chat about next time so listeners now want to know about your tanning politics what has resonated with you and is there anyone listening who works for a spray Tan Salon who does the spraying because I really want to hear from you and know what it is like to airbrush other people's bodies yeah and I do the women at the Atlanta Spray Tan place that I went to you guys were so nice I've only heard feedback like that from other girlfriends of mine who've gone and gotten spray tans and they were so nice and it was a great experience and let me tell you I loved it. I can wear less makeup when I have color on my face because I'm so pale so my dark circles just like pop out my my acne scars pop out so when I have a little bit of color it's like such such a breath of fresh air fresh tanning juice laden air so send us your Letta's mouth seven. How stuff works dot dot com is our email address? You can also tweet us at mom stuff podcast or messages on facebook and we've got a couple of messages to share with you right now so I got a letter here from Becca about our change makers series that we ran throughout march to celebrate women's history month. She writes thank you for the maker series. Currently I'm working to open my own small business and I love listening to you. Keep Me Sane and connected with the outside world while I knit so an embroider the maker series was so inspiring and gave me the motivation to keep going. Even when I get overwhelmed I quit my job last fall and decided to open my own business. After a friend and fellow mom was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. She passed away ninety five days later. After leaving a loving husband three children a huge hole in our community for Gina Wilson's words about her experience after nine eleven as a firefighter and the precious Sousse in finite nature of life touched so close. I found myself crying in the kitchen. After Laura's passing I vowed to dream big and go for it. The podcast really touched me in so many ways I just had to write in so thank you and keep up the amazing work on behalf of Laura. I would like to request an episode of any aspect of cystic fibrosis. It was her dream to find a cure. Well thank you so much Becca that means so much for us to hear and best out of luck building your business okay. I have a letter here from Elissa also about our maker Ceres this fan specifically about our episode talking to Abby Wambach Doc <hes> she says I related in a huge way to some of the things you guys talked about with abby and your recent interview with her. I'm a junior in college and an N._C.. Aa Division to athlete Athlete I play golf for Lubbock Christian University in Lubbock Texas. Go chaps I've been very blessed with teachers and coaches who are so encouraging and supportive of female athletes but I've experienced experience my share of sexism as well the N._C.. Double A. Does a wonderful job overall of making rules to make sure that it's athletes don't receive special treatment simply because they are athletes but they aren't as good at making sure we aren't discriminated against unfortunately my biggest example of the sexism that face from the N._C._W._a.. Itself in the heartland conference within division to all of the women's golf teams in the conference with big tournament to determine who goes to the next level. If you're on a men's team the top few teams go on to super region if your lady Golfer however there is a board who decides what teams move on past conference once the tournament is over. I've always almost was jokingly claimed that I would write a strongly worded letter about the blatant sexism here but I never got very motivated about it until I heard Abby Wambach talk to you guys about her titled Ten Project which she says reminded me of title nine and put me on a thought train back to my frustration with this particular rule. Thank you so much for reading my super long and kind of randy email. I appreciate you guys a ton. Keep doing what you're doing and Elissa. You keep doing what you're doing. Caroline you gotTa love. All these women doing such incredible things <hes> thanks for letting ascend on what's happening with their lives and you can send us your letters letters. MOM's house efforts dot com is email address and Burlington Oliver Social Media as well as all of our blogs videos and podcasts with our sources so you you can learn more about the politics of tanning head on over to stuff. Mom Never told you dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics visit how stuff works dot com this episode of stuff. Mom Never told you is brought to you by Pantene lately. I've been using the Pantene rose water collation and it's fantastic mastic not only does it smell incredible. My hair feels softer than ever like an actual rose pedal. Yeah I said it and best of all the Pantene rose water collection is sulfate free and contains contains zero parabens mineral oils or dies. This one of the reasons I love