7 Episode results for "Journal And Courier"
#010 Shannon Hoon of Blind Melon 1995
"Back to the Tapes Archive podcast where. We release interviews. That have never been heard before. Please listen to episodes zero zero zero an introduction for the full back story about this podcast series on this episode. We HAVE BLIND MELON FRONTMAN SHANNON. Hoon at the time of this interview in Nineteen ninety-five who was twenty years old and out on tour promoting bands new album soup in the interviews. Shannon talks in-depth about the making the band's latest record what it was like performing at Woodstock Ninety four his years playing high school sports in Indiana. And what was then his newest experience being a father to baby girl Nico Blue. Unfortunately about a month after this interview Shannon Hoon was found dead after an apparent drug overdose as always we have music critic Mark Allen at the helm conducting the interview before we get to the interview. We have a couple of housekeeping items. If you'd like to support the show please go to the website at the Tapes Archive Dot Com and Click on the support button on their. You'll find many ways to show your support for this show and all of them are free while on the website checkout marked blog for more context of this interview and for some personal insight from mark himself. One last thing the tapes archived. Podcasts is a proud member of the Cyrus podcast network a global community connecting passionate fans with podcast experiences about artists and topics you love. Thanks FOR TUNING IN. And now it's time to open the vault FBI. America and where are you? I'm in Toronto. Okay for some reason. I thought you were in New York so now. It almost gets frustrating. The by the time you do get all Q fucking talking. Well You got through. You're not very late. That's That's great Anyway Well I WANNA talk to you about the record and such and then about your Your your youth here in Indiana Let's talk about the director's Frustrating to to know that you've made a better more interesting follow up record and and it's going to be much more difficult to get people to hear it. I think that's something we were aware of when we when we went in to make the record I think the one thing The Roger Stayed about the project which is which rang. So true is is is is it. Good a good progressive growth with the ban. He's you know he's he talks about you. Know the first record being the musical You know it was the musical placenta. Basically the first song that we the first songs we'd ever written recorded together And I think good I think it's since then we have managed to hone in on making more record this time around opposed to like a record with a few singles on it. I personally like this new record a lot more than I do. The first thing I record was election of where we were at the time we made it but I think the district has more of a more of a mixed styles which is more the way we like it. I mean we realized that that financially and and and as far as eliminating a lot of the housewives he probably bought the first record for no rain. We realized that But I think I think that everybody wants to stay as honest as they can about About the songs that we write and keep that not keep the hit single thing as as as not as the focus. You know So no ray. To was not an option wasn't an option. Alleged subliminally came through in a in a different form on this. And I mean we we I like the fact that you sit down on each song hasn't even You know there's there's no obvious singles on the record that was the first thing that that You know we noticed when we when we sit down and we decide which songs we're going to be on on the record and which ones weren't and I think that you know actually get done with the sequencing get done putting in taping it all together That was one of the first things that I noticed. I think that I think it's better to have a record. I think that's the point of making record by the way she just released. Forty fives yeah. That's that's I. It seems like Like you guys are in with a whole bunch of other people in that you you get. I record it incredibly well. And then by the time all audiences seemed to like burn it up and then they just go onto something else. It's like by the time the second comes out there onto something else. Do you have any any sense of that? And I think it's I think it's just obvious human nature these days you know that there was a rapid pace going on Things are things are quickly chewed up and spit out more so today than they were five ten years ago. And I think that I think that people are not going to listen much to something that they might have to listen to a couple of times. You know if you know I read a lot of Of things that are actually quite humorous. Because you see you see in some of the critics they instead of falling over their tongue. They quickly like they quickly. Stupi out as opposed to shit and it and to me it it Kinda just. It's it's obvious that the person that doesn't have the patience to really sit down and listen to anything more than one time and it's like it's that whole forest. Don't get us to the chorus type of mentality. So I mean to me I I was always a fan of records that you that you had kind of Shit. Soak with them for a little while you know. I always liked that about pink. Floyd records you know you can never really figure out why you like it but you always. I certain kind of meat. You always put that one at those records on the soft full of secrets. There's always like this mood. Maybe only came round like once or twice a week but it was kind of mood that ended up being like three or four times a week and then next thing you knew that thing was permanently locked in DC. I just I we were definitely wear that though. I mean there's we're in you know I'm in a band where fortunately enough there's there's five songwriters So there's never one guy right and all the stuff so it's never monotonous and sometimes people just want you know some people like to hear bands that repetitively play the same songs basically over and over just with different words and I think that I think we're a little bit different. That yeah and and then you go into it and you know the the the you know exactly what people are waiting for. They are waiting for the rain to. And and that's just gotTa be horrible as an artist it actually. It isn't as horrible if you recognize it if you know that prior to I mean everybody is always like they pull the Beagle out of the trump card. Oh there's no be girls on this record it's like to me that's a that's a compliment right. It's like I I don't WanNa live my whole life through one album by any means so I think that I think that you know all I can really ask and I think that everybody in the band will agree. The only thing you can really ask yourself as China musically move forward. You can't really judge this the the satisfaction of a record based upon how many sales I mean all I can do that are playing. It's better than a writing. Seems to get better and we feel like we've progressed and and I feel like we did that. I feel like we really sampled out a lot of a lot of musical styles that we all were interested in That maybe we didn't feel like waiting to to the third or fourth record to get to. We felt like just getting started with it now and if you and if you do that you do do it at the risk of losing a lot of people but. I think that anybody who really really likes ban Realized and if they've ever seen as they know that we're into I mean we'd like to change. I don't like to to stay in the same shore of music for too long. I like to kind of jump around and and sample everything on the table and then come back and reflect on and I think that everybody took the chances of branching out into different styles of music when we when we decided to write the record and we decided to bring in a lot of like different styles that we weren't used to work with and working with and You know like to me I think that you know. It's like the Beastie boys getting the beach boys for record was phenomenal and Their second record Paul's Batik was was not suit. Not so happily embraced by everybody. But you know what it was one of the best records and I mean I I just I. I am enjoying of joint where we started. Twenty we just got back from Europe touring and and I'm enjoying playing these songs or you know they're they're fun to play live and she son to play other songs. You know playing the same songs night after night for you. WanNa take people through a quick guided tour of this record. What should they look for? And what You know an and explain things that might loop. Yeah we We ended up where we recorded in New Orleans which I don't know if you've ever spent any time there. I can't say half it's It's a city that was willpower tested in. That's for metabolism usually doesn't prevail but We recorded it with Andy. Wallace we recorded in New Orleans studio. Kingsway it's right in the middle of the front or right on the backside of quarter So there's never a lag in anything to anything for anything to do We We we waited for a long time after the first secretary court this one because we weren't so we weren't so apt to wanting to jump on the hyper. The first record quickly released a second record. what kind of wanted to let them know rain. Think go away and we kinda wanted to just go away just wanted people to just kind of forget about it. We Stadium for about three months brought in Brought in brass band current. He's the high flying corn player in New Orleans. We brought it him in the little rascals brass band like some local flavor to it and then we Got Done probably about three months ago. It took us about three months to make the record. And you weren't any we didn't really Joe. I mean to piston time in New Orleans. We knew that it was going to have an effect on the record so we just stayed down there for a while and and and a lot of the things were written before we went down there but they were never they were never like polished and finished off. They're just kind of ideas when we went down there. We kind of wanted to wait till we had gotten together to finish them all up and we wanted to do that in New Orleans. 'cause we needed that would happen effect on us as well and you know. I know on the music. The song was recorded in the order that they were on the record they This carseat was a song. Which about the Susan Smith from the whole thing. The song see here I am. I am forgetting what the songs on the record. You know I never really. I never really think about what? What about this part of it? I? I'm the most unpopular stuff interview guide. You'll ever me. That's okay I just I don't know I don't like Kinda over alleged a whole lot of therefore unfortunately I forget on this song galaxy certain about sixty four galaxy that I bought one of those down there The Song Bernie's about my grandmother and Song will talk about It's a combination of a of a bus driver that we haven't time who had the worst breath I think that could possibly so. How many the toes across the floor? I was carson floors of It kind of is a is a extension of the song skinned in a sense song. Skin is about the serial killer. Ed Geene This guy used to build Furniture out of people's bones. He was the fire. He's the guy who they did. Sort of a spin off. Silence of the lambs right. Okay and Should you know relay that message to the lady who reviewed the record in ten said that I I got my mother showers blind melon? You should tell her to find out what the meaning of some of these songs are before. She entered tally on the chopping block. Okay tell her that. When she slams the song like car seat she needs to realize she's slamming very touching story that I'm sure that a lot of people are affected by okay. Well she's working in Cleveland now but I'll definitely the message yet. Make sure to tell her. She'll definitely get some key. He's the kind of person who seems like the person to call for like three past the show. It's always get those people. It's really funny. Because we keep all these bad reviews you know and it's already legitimately slams you but when they have no clue and you can tell that they just didn't really even take the chance of finding anything out before they decided to post their opinion on. It cracks me up because usually those are the first people who will call and ask if they can get them in for their friends into the show. I always say yeah. Yeah by the time they go through all the parking problems and everything and then they get up to the ticket counter and they wade through line and they actually their tickets you give them their input they get their envelope and clipping always know. It's interesting because I I gave you know. I try to assign those reviews based on the You know some. Give it to somebody. I think would be sympathetic or at least like style of music and you know I did not I gave her the only copy I got. I got a copy a couple of weeks later right after the review rat and I thought it was an I think this is a way more interesting record. Be No slow I record but I thought that was a pretty much. A one note bracco and This one I like all the styles and I think you take a lot of chances and it's different from song disarm which is when I was listening to a record for something. I was a big fan of the velvet underground and I think that was what I liked. The most about the velvet underground blue read. You know who could? Who could who could really really right words and then every you know all the other people in the band were into different kinds of Media John. Kelly was like the complete master of instruments and then like each song with. Just you know there would be a common thread but you couldn't put your finger on and there would be a common with entwine all the songs but you could never put your finger on what it was. I think that I mean the song. Lemonade is probably the most bombastic song that that is. The you know this fool on characteristic of New Orleans. It's just you know it was the song that kermit in the band played on it show which was a definite highlight as far as the days in the studio when those guys came in it was brought in it was like four other people and they were band that plays out on the street. New Orleans and they were phenomenal man and and and they were the embodiment of New Orleans. Every characteristic of the city came through in them just as people who while they were talking in between page so they were so authentic man. It was like it was. It was a pretty funny gay man. They could drink coming. I was waiting for just like bubbles to start coming out of their horns because they were really really funny. I think we enjoyed ourselves more this time making a record because we've done it before and I think on the first record you know and now I don't take offence to it because I also believe that it was. It was our first record and I believe that you're very apprehensive about feeling comfortable when you go into a studio and you have all this money that's pumped into making a record when we're when you're used to doing recordings for like you know a fraction of the cost that it takes you realize the seriousness surrounds it. I think it took a long time for us to relax and and kind of feel comfortable about saying no. We don't want to spend that much money on something you know we would rather we would rather wait rather than jump on the high of the banned and wait till we're relaxed and and feel like making another record you know. I think that a Lotta the elements surrounding the record. Or what makes me like the record or post sometimes just listening to it Yeah I can like it but I think there's a lot of things that are that are surrounding the record that are that lay very well with me. And that was the manner that we took about recording manner. We took as far as realizing to meshing of of what we do together. Each one of us as individuals. Because we're very different people and if you were ever in a room without five she would he would definitely notice it so to try to find common denominator and and and something to to To grow on equally. It's sometimes it's difficult you know we. There is tension in the band because everybody knows how to to write a song but I think the common denominator is that everybody wants to make the song as best as it can be and if there's only going to be one common denominator thank God that that's the one how Added all this feeling about Let's go away for a while. Let's not crew recreate no rain. How did that sit with the record company? Obviously not well I mean but at the same time I think that some people's plans are a lot bigger than maybe what we want them to be. I can't I can't if it's if it's because of enthusiasm well then I'm not gonNA say anything but if it's just for the Almighty dollar bill I have to go. You know what your you start fooling the longevity of things you know I mean after the last trick or after the first record and and here you know you're talking about guys who had never really been on tour and then all of a sudden we got thrust into a two year tour. Our domestic lifezette completely crumbled. And I think that there was. There was a lot of foundations that had had weakened and we needed to strengthen them before. This could be an honest record and I think that that's one thing that everybody really really agreed on quickly was that we did want to take some time off. And we WANNA you know. Repair what had been damaged By the unexpected success of the first record and I think I think it probably it did I mean here. You start to dislike something you love to do. There's gotta be something going wrong somewhere and I think it was because we were just being. We were Catering to the success of a single. You WanNa do it because people wanna see play a lot and you wanna play but sometimes you really have. Shebek in evaluate if it's if it's affecting you personally not because you insult people when you get up there and you don't want to be there and you think that they don't see it. I mean I noticed it when I go to see a ban if they don't want to be there and I think that that That that's the way the last six months. Artur was because I think that the the those nights a lot of them the crowd complete their enthusiasm completely carries you sometime. That's where you realize the power of having having a following because they sometimes are the only saving grace of of torn because it isn't it that's it isn't all cracked up to what everybody thinks it is. It's fun for about the first couple months. And then you start to realize that you're so sheltered away from Mike Reality you have to quickly remind yourself that this is sort of similar to carnival or the four H. I kind of runs along the same lines of it and you just want to see a familiar face every now and then. Sometimes that familiar face comes from someone you've never met before. Who knows all the words to your song or or something like that. So I think that Yeah to answer your question very long way. The the record label they weren't they probably were happy that we didn't want to record right away but at the same time they're not pushy and I'm not you know I think record companies yes. I think they make way too much money. Out of the artists who create the records. But I think that You know I've managed to. I'M NOT MR Anti Record Company. You know if it's it's your fault if you don't look at everything clearly before you sign on the dotted line so I'm not GonNa sit here and in hindsight state someone else's fault but I'm happy I'm happy with what what the record and what we're doing now and the pace that we're doing it at. We're still doing like a small small kind of tours. You know we we did a couple of we just went over and we did your with soundgarden and it was it was it was enjoyable because we know this guys and and and the shows were really big. But but I think that I think we're more comfortable and more of an intimate environment. I think for us. We come up better. Com will. Yeah you're going to play like fifteen hundred capacity police. That's where most comfortable at doing. I think anything out because that that that anything bigger than that the element of laptop computer stuff trump wrap. Everything gets too serious when the shows are like bigger than that. So what was it like being unstated woodstock it was interesting? I think that by no means didn't even come close to capturing the first one was all about I think it was a real real weak attempt at but I. I didn't see anybody there who really didn't have fun and I think that's what made you know the the only things that really made it a you heard the remnants of the first which was when you saw you know. We went on after Joe Cocker and to see jockocracy feeling alright was something that just blew me away. I was like talk. God Not only in my like blown away whether it's we have to play. I mean like I met Peter Max there and now if someone who are always wanted to asked the guy to sign my guitar and Peter Max turn Mike. My Acoustic Guitar drew a whole picture on the back of it. Cool wow is rock and roll. Doesn't pay the rent for a wife. That's right that's right and Okay well Let me let me ask you about Growing up here you said your mom Central Clips of. She's obviously still living And Lafayette actually just bought a house. There they're still do okay. I in my My girlfriend who I met Enough we grew up in Lafayette. I went to coach high school. We we We just had our first child about eight weeks ago. Oh congratulations yeah girl. A little girl all right. Yeah we were and I had to leave like a week and later so it's taken. It's hard to say I would be lying if I said it was one hundred percent enthusiastic about being out on tour here because I just you know like it's just hard to be away where you've got four more weeks of Crying Shooting Piss this. I thought that this mess demand sleep up for a living doing this for looming. I thought a lot of sleep. Nothing paired that's true but but you WANNA be there at three months because three months you start getting smiles and things like what's going on right like she's starting to smile right now. She's found her smile as far as like honestly and sincerely using it at times when she wants to smile. That's what you're talking about. Yes yeah yeah. Obviously year. Our Father had my little girl who's GONNA turn four. Got Another one. Who's to November? Four th so yeah. So it's it's very cool before we start seeing the things in the little things that they do. Yeah it's going to stop on the road. You know what I'm doing is I'm I'm thinking I'm buying a A mobile home to To take out on the road Mainly should we like to camp and everything as well and she's the baby now is is is healthy enough to be able you know. We've checked the doctors. They said it was okay that we can take her out so. I think that we're going to do like a lot of toying with her good. Yeah I up in Lafayette Went to school there and Just moved back there from Chicago in now. Dave Banger. The critic of the paper he was. He told me that A while back you said you know. Nobody knew about axl rose really but everybody knew you and that you were very vocal and that you see that You you made. No you made a plane there. Anybody who would listen that you were going to be a star. Does that accurate? I think that's very Inaccurate okay I have to ask him again. Because that's what I thought he said. But Mommy I'll double check out the Dave Dave Really Nice Guy. Though he really is east he was. You know I mean it's it's sometimes it's hard to it's hard to talk to a local paper but but you know that is where all my friends are and I feel kind of funny because I like I like being home because my friends still tell me to fuck off in the wild how you come to miss that I still actually there's Do you might Kelsey You sure with us right now here with us in Toronto a really really Mike actually played. There's a hidden track on this on the record and and I wanted you know me and my plate in our first in the first time we were in together and and we will die school together and we brought Mike Down in New Orleans. 'cause I WANNA producer Andy to see Mike's new age wave music now you know. I don't know if you've seen my players seem as video. He sent me. Does the Acoustic Percussion off at Guitar? Yeah we that's the video that our producer seen in wanted to see Mike. Mike came down to New Orleans and And we ended up. I want I wanted Andy to record because we had a lot of extra tape. We had extra time and I was like I want I want my just. We displace record was a three story like this three story. Mansion was really killer and Mike Wind up in the time. It was really old so mike goes up top and we set up the MIC right in the hallway. 'cause the echo in the hallway was great and it was sorta you didn't have to create it through budget. Technology was originally. Just a panic. Sounds he was getting and He played for like an hour straight and we recorded all of and what we did was we. We took the best parts. And we kind of dismayed the swirl of like weird music and like the everybody picked instrument they didn't play and it was all based around. What my kid play. And then we took the new life on the record which is about You know my child Lisa telling me. She was shoes pregnant It was a song that we put on the record. The vocals track from that and we played backwards over what Mike it done. And it's hidden track on the record and the only way to get to it which I'm telling you don't have to participation V. I've actually. I'm just telling you personally because you know Mike. Nice to lay on the scan button. I believe in it. It'll scan back through it at the beginning of the record you'll have to scan all the way through and you'll hear go put a little anyone stops you know thin lead off the scamper and he'll star okay but it's really anyway. Mike. Yeah Mike here with us now. That's cool he's GonNa play with us at this We're GONNA take him on tour and he's going to play his little thing between the First Brandon. Us Great and He's up here playing this We're doing this the MTV of Canada. We're doing their unplugged thing. And I share your pain in the butt. But they're fun to do but setting them up. You have to go in and and just do all this crap goes around setting it up is sometimes real pain in the ass but my explain witness so what was the band that you and Mike. We're together we were in a couple of. We were in a couple. That didn't even have names and then we were. We were in a band called stiff kittens. Wild okay yeah and Then we ended up figuring out that we really did like doing this and we. It was like this cheesy cover teen band that we were in and we used to just get our kicks out of doing that and it was like we realized that you grow of that eighties rock thing and you think well you know. I really enjoy the therapeutic value of writing songs so we started just we. Did we just kind of stay in row songs together? Didn't really have a band and then We just started to get into different kinds of music and stuff like that and I ended up just I had to leave. Lafayette I just was kind of. I got tired I wanted to go. I like to write so I like I wanted to go on a vacation and I think my vacation is still going on. So where did you go? I ended up moving to Los Angeles like nineteen eighty nine and I always kept in touch with Mike and I and all that and I got really kind of went out and it wasn't really looking for band was thing as when I moved to Los Angeles I was kind of just wanting to see it and I was wanting to climb into writing and I wanted to climb into writing about like just traveling around and victim of of a lot of small town mentality as far as like the racist prejudice. State of mind that inhabits a lot of small small town and I was you know I needed to see why I didn't want to be that way you know it was. I think that my point of view is very very narrow. And I needed to broaden my rights and I needed to seek myself into a community that had like a little bit of culture and a little bit of I went from you know when I was in high school I was. I was very very small minded kid as far as like anybody. Who's lifestyle. Was You know whether you be gay? Whatever I didn't agree within I but I never really found out why when I out to La. I realized that I wasn't I wasn't as prejudice what I thought I was. I was able to embrace a lot of people you know. I didn't have to agree with it as far as like my personal choice but I didn't mean I couldn't understand it and it was. It was something that as far as a human being I felt alchemy grow more than anything was moving to Los Angeles having so many different Colors and creeds on my block more so than I had ever. Ah Ever come in contact with my for my roommate to to the people next door. I had like Asians blacks gays Everything surrounding me and and I think that Finding finding the ability to adapt to to to all that helped me out. You Know Shange fires like helping me grow up a bit so it's kind of funny to win that you're back. Yeah I mean I think I I think everybody kind of I. I'm speaking obviously for me but I think that that The best thing for me was to to move away and once I stepped outside of of of Home I was able to deal with home a little better. And you know I I. I love the fact that I can that I can still feel comfortable in my hometown. And there's not a you know there's not a lot of people that bug me and As far as I come in during my door three in the morning a lot of people still don't give a shit about what I'm doing and I like that now so This this thing that I was saying that Dave said that maybe I've got wrong but so this is not right at all. I mean you're just Quietly going on playing in bands. Low quietly ever. How can I ever really person personal with me at all but I think I I mean I always I always suffered from wanting being somewhere and wanting to somewhere else and sometimes that can be mistaken is what you're saying. Yeah you know I I just I. I was never satisfied but sometimes it wasn't. That wasn't a bad thing for me. I've learned to feel it. It a struggle with it but I but I've found a way to kind of ease the anxiety of just always just want want to do more. I mean I'm never satisfied with what I've done. I want to do more. And and you know I was an athlete to all through high school and As far as being a star athlete that was something that may be a lot of people because a lot of people knew me from Vietnam. Never knew that my musical background at all opposed to my athletic background. You know pull votes like football and I wrestle and now and You know did all right in each one and It was funny because I was looking. It ought journal and courier clippings of me pro vaulting and things like that really just. It's really funny because I still have that hunger inside of me. That was just like man. I can remember that you know the competitive air surrounded that I loved it and it was like You know I was never satisfied with with the second place. You're not you know. Unfortunately that ended up being the A very actually turned out to be a very frustrating. I couldn't enjoy game of pinball without pointing to be my opponent to the point where he wasn't a recreational game of pinball. I think I just wanted to get the most out of life I think that anything that entails travelling and meeting different people and different cultures and things like that. That's what I enjoy about going to Europe and go and taking trips to third world countries. Where you go. Wow maybe I don't. Maybe I take a lot for granted you realize. I realized that about what I took for granted when I lived in Lafayette and now now moved Dot Com. Some kind of applying. What I've seen and learn trying to build a quiet home is great and I guess you had the In your earlier moments of of rock stardom and getting the trouble and making headlines with the various incidents between them pretty quiet the last year or so. The kid does that absolutely. I mean there's a lot less time to go out. I mean there's a reason someone told me there's a reason why now and I and I looked at him. I said you know what for me? There's a reason why not now. This is the reason why not suck day? So I mean I think that I mean I just I look at I look at the big picture. I think a little bit more now. Toast to small one and this. You know I'm enjoying what we're doing. And and at this point in time I would like to think that I have the energy to do it for a long time but I know that I know that there's a bigger picture and I think that this is a small part of it So I'm just kind of enjoying it now and and obviously the world is is revolving around around my daughter and And I think that Lisa and I are trying to build a very good home for her and I don't think that having me be in jail somewhere the appropriate waste funny how that works and that was meant some of my friends coming Shannon. You hear what Bob and Tom said about your child and I'm like thinking you know I don't care what anybody says about me but don't start. Don't take it you know. My daughter was like a week. Not even a week old you know. And and they They were calling her. Who Blue Moon Air Time? Nice horrible their element of humor is about the only thing that keeps keeps. I duNNo. I don't really know all I know. I could never understand why they got. This is Bob and Tom and this journey on q ninety two contract. You know what? Maybe it's part of the humor well metal. Thanks so I think they`re. I think they are trying to be so mainstream that because they say well we've got You know the W SMS listener. You know who's GonNa listen about the time you don't want to place on that'll turn them off and you don't want to turn the easy listening guy off and you don't. WanNa tell you I mean it's just like man you start mass market and yourself that way and pretty soon pretty soon every song. No Rain Isn't it from the From the hits Nineties Twenty Years Hami. Yeah you can you ever see a day that you won't playing that Song Live. You know what actually we just started playing it live and I think that now it's a lot more comfortable. Last time we played it was woodstock and the other night was the first time we played it and I think we had to let it rest for a while now. Now that you play it in the middle of a bunch of other new songs. It's a little bit more comfortable game so requested out of every radio station. You know we do acoustic shows and stuff like that was the only thing that a lot of people on here so we started playing first off. There is to get rid of the people who just came to hear that and I saw the rembrandts a couple of weeks ago and then they got the big problem having that friends. Yeah and So they were playing in the middle of the just getting it over with and maybe planet. I isn't a bad idea. Get get it over with the indigo girls used to do that to that. Closer to find video makes me sad. Listen TO SEAN corrupted by this video age closer to find video instead of saying Song I should really yes. Yeah and easy way of thinking and Blerta's this but I know people are going to ask me the B girl she At the end of her career she had her fifteen minutes. I don't know but you I know the Toes GonNa hate her. Parents glided you let you in. The video is okay. But then she like went out on her own little Beagle press tour. It was really is funny. Man He was hugh is annoying as all get out. Parents were even like twice as an oriented. And and I think that if I wouldn't have been off the record enhanced by an acid I probably would have thrown into the cows. We and he just wouldn't shut up. Not that I leave too many gaps between word. I mean this girl made me. Look like a mime. Well that was the whole thing about the about. The early successes. I looked at that and went ben and then I listened to the record. This is what this band is about at all. And you know people just got the you know they. They think you're the spin doctors. And they got this whole hippie thing right now and I'm like thinking okay. Well well I guess you know. We didn't do too much to dissuade anybody as far as like the way our parents may have looked into video like some of the people we hung. Now you just heard was really sick. Which really bothers me is is there? We just did video galaxy with him He's in the video of this out. He's got prostate cancer now. Nine and that sad. That guy was real. I mean man. What a what a little boy in a very I mean he was. He seemed he could be late. No matter how I watched him talking with this young little boy. Who's in the video who plays the elfin video? Are The little his apprentice. But you know the wizards apprentice. Whatever he's like he was just like a ten twelve year old kid and I was just watching on Timothy leary would interact with him and he was just such a kid himself and so look young at heart you know you can imagine the revisionist history. That's going to go on when he does. Oh Gosh it's GONNA be ridiculous. Yeah but Just a couple of quick since Wednesday. You graduated from a catch. Eighty five and so pete by Franklin Central and eighty eighty three in the high school state final game and I was. I was beat seventeen to three by David Bridgeport from Warren Central in my nineteen eighty-four semi state wrestling tournament. That's a Franklin Central High School's gym which was the worst because they had just previously whipped are ash and football jock. That's so hard to imagine. I don't know why but it's really Kinda cool it You you got a a whole different life of the whole different career a very funny and so so you're about twenty eight turned twenty eight this month twentieth of smartphones so You know kind of well. Let's great anything else. You want me to tell people you know what Stuff Bob and Tom. Hello doing well I really. I really care for them. Here's what I was thinking which really kind of made me angry. This was the only thing that made me angry. What is there? What is by chance I would have had? We've had difficulties with the pregnancy. What if there would have been something wrong with our child? I think those are things that they should really think about before they. That's why I'm saying I don't care. I put my own head on the chopping block. You don't have to try to set it down there and And I should've unfortunately all five of my feet in my mouth and I. I'm aware of this. I have no problem when I'm attacked in in any type of a bit manner at all used to I. I'm above being thoroughly affected by it but when you start to talk about things like that and here I before we even had a child. One thing That like you know I look at capital punishment and I and I cannot say. This people commit crimes against kids. Such as murder are not at that is the one thing that I deem where capital punishment is appropriate. I don't believe that anybody. Who has the the GUT to kill? A child has the guts to offer anything to society And and that is the only thing like like I believe in Amnesty International. But that's the big hangup. Is The death penalty. I believe that ninety percent of what they're about is so morally creek and I believe it's appropriate in Third World countries where people kill people for their political beliefs but in America I think that our judicial system is kind of got a little bit more grip than you know South America South American. You know Cities that we that we visited. Where people would you know? Walk around with fucking machine guns in the streets there in malls and things and I was just thinking I was like you know. Yeah I mean I can I can. I can stomach a lot of things but when you start attacking children in any manner. I don't care what it is. That's something that I feel like is so inappropriate. You know I mean you know don't condemn my child. Because she's my child. You know I want to ask you come back to music for one. Quick Second. Is this this record And one of the things that That the person at the review criticized was your singing. And I think you're seeing a so much more interesting on this that I'm getting a lot more from your voice. I mean I'm getting like a real wide range of of sounds such and I'm wondering if that's just me as listener if you're consciously doing the US. Get after the first tour to be honest with you. I I tore my vocal cords and I think that you know and I'm I was never in go and and consult like a doctor to make sure that I wasn't getting the dodgers and when I found out that I wasn't I was like what got it sure feels like I do and I've always been a fan of the raspy singer always loved out about Janice Joplin and I think that that a lot of people it's either It's a love. Hate thing you either like it or you don't and And I think on this record I think that Because I was more apt to finding the conviction of of believing what I was seeing about and and the conviction of of executing it. I think I really didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the to the proper way which is what I wanted. Which is what I love to I don. I don't WanNa be perfect. I don't want to seeing every blind perfectly Tich wise or whatever I mean. I'm not I'm looking more for for the feeling of satisfaction and I feel like if you have that then then whatever it sounds like is is about as authentic authentic as it can get as far as if you're trying to really capture The meaning of what you're saying or what you're seeing and I think that I think that You know I finally got my throat to the word out Damaged way that I've always wanted it to be to be honest I have. I have four comfortable more comfortable now with the way I seeing than I ever. You know I don't feel insecure about it anymore. I don't feel like I'm like I'm trying to seeing something that I can't sing and and and whereas you know I mean I can listen to the first record and I can hear the insecure person that I was you know before I was here that I wanted to. Do you know when we made the perspective we were like. Wow you know we have a career and none of us wanted to career at anything so now I have to go shit. Now we gotta go out and follow this thing that you know. I mean everybody in the band into different things even the other than music. So it's like now we have this engulfing all of our time. It was like You know I mean I. I'm going to have to get comfortable with doing this. So I think over the course of the voice that I have now which which I feel on the record is is if if if you're if you're looking for someone with perfect pitch and perfect execution. I'm not tra- guy but I mean I'm I'm comfortable with and But you know it's it's someone's opinion and then they have a right to it and and you know there's there's I'm just thinking of range. I mean like I you know the first one I thought it. I figured I thought you know this. This is very Perry Farrell like. It sounds like that but then I mean you listen to this and there's there is That reminds me of John Anderson. Yes there's a song that this is weird. It reminds me of Jose Feliciano. You know so. It's sort of all I mean so you you hit the smooth stuff and you hit the rough stuff and it was just. I thought it was a much more interesting range of of stuff. So that's Any will this greed. And you've been more than kind with your time and Conversations are I mean. They they take the interview out of the inner. Yeah Yeah I mean it. Plus plus you know what the kid thing you could could talk to you all day. Yeah I can do the weird. How like I feel when you look into the your child is how you you feel like the the baby and they stay take on the appearance of all human being a million years old. Who's come back to see how you're doing the thing that Your child will do just be. It's just amazing. The things that'll happen all of a sudden I mean when they start doing when she starts to crawl and You know one day I went out for a while I came back. My Wife said look at this. My daughter was crawling up the steps which I just thought. Oh my God. This is the end of the world. You're quitting my job. We Are Dad when she is GonNa come down the stairs and You know just fall down the stairs and then these so you spend your life worrying about stuff like that but when when she starts talking too much he starts walking around and How old are you? I'm thirty six and you have children. Yeah One and one on the way so I think you know the the The calm demeanor something that Watch out did inherit. Yeah but this you just. You'll see things that just I mean I look at my daughter sometimes and I think man she just looks i. I seem me in her. And and which scares the shit out of me. My wife is a hell of a lot better and I wanna see that you know but but you see things that she does and she picks things that you do and say you. Just Oh my God why she picked those things you know she picking. My good hat uses leak. Looks like like Lisa And then when she gets mad she looks like me expression on her face and her eyes and everything cage into me and it's really horrible. Oh yeah that's the same thing that I experienced there. I just think she gets mad. And that is just. That's me right there. The little will body thirty pounder. Going going nuts and being stubborn. So but that's that's my traits Four mark is a pleasure talking to her name here and if if you can't come up to the shoulder there I'll be there come up in gained grabbing the OPO. Okay all right take care bye. Hey thanks for listening to the tapes. Archived podcasts please. Remember you can always find more information about the show and the individual episodes at a website the tape archive dot com until next time all closed.
Chapter 3: A Picture & A Search Warrant
"Simplisafe home security is getting commercial grade enterprise level security but for your own home think about the security fortune five hundred companies as us. They need to know police will be on scene immediately. This is exactly the kind of security you get with simplisafe. If there's a break in the US real video evidence to give police eyewitness accounts of the crime go to simplisafe dot com slash d t h today for a sixty day risk free trial and free shipping. If you want to see the people in places we're talking about in the story learn more about the investigation including how to submit tips or learn more about the town of Delphi. visit our website down the hill. PODCAST DOT COM. You said the last time we spoke to you that for you the woods will never be the same. I still feel that way even when I'm at home in my own woods yeah I think a lot of people feel that way. There's been a lot oughta violation here from the freedom and sanctity of a real place to the perception of safety and security. You won't bet most parents in this area. We can drop their kids off anymore for Shane. Lucia it's a beautiful area right now. This the whole community is really spectacular. Place retirement. Come through this you know and this is a very trail us. This is very this is a very trail and that was hard to get past. It's hard to get beyond that. You know Bush's trees talk if they if these trees could talk or stone or whatever it might be because they know exactly. Who did this everything we know about? What happened to Abby Williamson Libby? Chairman in those woods is a series of disconnected moments the in between each moments a blank space over the past three years State Police Superintendent Doug Carter like all of us has been trying to fill in those spaces. That's where the answers and now we're about to see some of those moments for the first time mm-hmm police are also examining this snapchat photo. It was taken just before both girls disappeared the announcement that the girls have been found not to a good end. We are investigating this as a trying. Seen we suspect foul play law enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iphone. They say it was right before she was murdered. Two we have thirty. We have a still photograph. We have sound. This person could be half the white males and Carroll County to the killer who may be in this room. We likely have interviewed you. We know that this is about power not here and you want to know what we know in one day you will this. This is down the hill the Delphi murders and we're back accurate the CNN center in Atlanta in our production room. I'm Barbara McDonnell and I'm Andrew. Aydin we WANNA thank you for coming along on this journey with us and and we're not trying to solve this case what we wanna do is make sense of it and part of that is understanding. What do we know right now? What we now is that two girls Abigail Williams and liberty German thirteen or fourteen years old had been murdered? We know that they were on a bridge moments before disappearing hiring and that their bodies were found some distance away along a creek and it's been described as a particularly gruesome crime scene and that triggered a massive response from law enforcement from the gecko including the FBI and coupled with. That is the things that we don't know which is pretty hefty amount of that at this point the first thing being how are these. Two girls killed the senior gruesome. What was it that triggered such a massive law enforcement response? I I mean we're talking about multiple jurisdictions multiple agencies state federal local everything and then. Finally we don't know the level of fear. This community humidity should have was the serial killer that will strike again. Was this a one off. Isolated incident isolated it crime. We don't know the level of concern that local should have all of that kind of funneled into the three big questions. We have. which are who did this? What the hell happened out there? And how hasn't this been solved and as we get back into our story. Law Enforcement Horseman is beginning to process the first bits of evidence and they are still at the crime scene. They are also beginning to fan out all all over the area to talk to people and to begin figuring out what happened like you said this is the first time law enforcement is able to really wrap their hands around and tangible evidence stuff things that will give them some insight on what in the world happened Art One to seven PM. I've noticed more and more the people who are walking the trails. You know. They're not walking alone. They're looking over their shoulders there. There you know that that innocence was taken from US Sir You should know the day. Okay after is an important benchmark in this case. It's where for the first time we see actual evidence. There are two snapchat photo circulating articulating. One of them shows Abbey on the bridge shortly before she went missing and before we get to the photos. There are a couple of things about the MON on hybrids. So you need to know. It's more than a century old and it stretches more than eight hundred feet long and Deer Creek is seventy feet below. It hasn't been used by train since the nineteen eighties. So the railroad ties are in pretty rough shape. There are large gaps in between. It's a tough walk and I can tell you from experience. It is not doc for those with a fear of heights in the snapchat picture of Abbey from February thirteenth. She's looking down as anyone who walks this bridge does and should in her hands appear to be in her pockets. She's wearing blue jeans. A Red t shirt with a gray hoodie and sneakers her hair is in a messy bun. She's already already crossed the portion of the bridge going over the creek and the photo appears to have been taken from one of the small platforms that extend from the side of the bridge. wjr Here's Erica Gibson. Again Abbey was Happy you can't really see it like she's trying to get like across the bridge in era little terrified looking down now. She's like you can tell that they would have gone there and stuff unless they wanted to. I don't know if he's ever been on the bridge before But it could have been abused first time. She gets a little scared sometimes so when she's well she probably wouldn't have walked across the bridge so at that point. She was probably scared but I I mean. She was probably excited after she got off herself. I'm guessing if she's never been on it and they were having fun. Maybe was taking photos like I said and Avenue is being a little model. The second snapchat photo is a black and white picture of just the bridge disappearing into the woods. There's no one in front one of her and we don't know what's happening behind her. Which of these two photos was taken? I we don't know that either but we do know the the timing here is significant. Now explain for me. I don't use snapchat. So when Libby took these two pictures she uploaded them which meant that all of her friends or whatever? Her privacy setting was all those people could see it. Yes everyone her privacy settings depending but then once they see it it's supposed to disappear. Is that right. I've twenty four hours. Okay unless you screen shot it unless you screen chart yes and then you can keep it on your device. Okay and does it automatically have the time stamp when libby out does it automatically to snapchat that if the date and time. It doesn't but If I'm thinking right now I screen shotted it when it said three hours and then I looked at the time I screen shot at. It was like I don't want to get this wrong but I forget what time but it was like eighty the math on that until when I gave my phone. They're like okay so you took the photo at this time and it said this many hours ago so my time say instead like to ten when I think it was like two seven so like they're just trying to see wherever he took it to try to get proximate time that it was posted. We talk about imagery in this case and it's important to the investigation. These two snapchat photos are the first clues that help establish a timeline and investigators need to get their hands on them. The FBI came to our school super nice people like I mean. They came a few times. The office people knew them really. Nice people I'd never met anybody the F. B. I. N.. From my experience with them they good people he called us and he was like listen. I got your name from either last student that you you may have the screen shy or that. You may be able to help us. He's a you don't have to say anything. You can walk out of here right now. But that wasn't what I'm here for. I'm not here to not give them what I know. The FBI is continuing to interview. Students and authorities authorities are getting ready to talk to the media. It's the first press conference since yesterday's announcement that the bodies were found So we're back here at C. N. N. Center and everyone in Delphi wants to see and hear what law enforcement is GonNa say. You know as we mentioned before messing strategies important especially this period the case the town is looking for answers. They're looking for information. And so this is the news conference the first one where they're going to speak with some definitive information. Let's take this thing bit by bit. Here's Sergeant Kim Riley highly basically we have identified the bodies of the two females. That were found out yesterday. Or yes yesterday The bodies bodies are of have been positive of dinovite as Abigail Jay Williams thirteen of the Delphi area and Liberty Rose Lynn German fourteen of the the fire. The two girls were reported missing on Monday February thirteenth. The bodies were discovered about twelve fifteen on the fourteenth in the woods. Just east the town here by volunteers that helped in the search the children after they were reported missing to the Carroll County Sheriff's Department family has been notified. This is considered a double homicide an investigation. We're asking for anyone to come forward. Who has information that were either on the Delphi? His Trachea there on Monday especially there were near the Monin high bridge that they might have been seen seeing somebody out there. They may have taken pictures. Somebody might be in that photograph if they were out there doing that kind of stuff. We need that information. We would love to have pictures of that more to just clarify. What what we got going on out there so so? They know the bridges significant at this point. And they're asking for anybody who is out there and we've heard that there were people out there. It was a nice day. There were people out walking and they're asking for all those people to come forward and tell them what they know. Is there anybody else in the community. I'm sorry what was there anybody else in the community. I'll let you answer that. At this time. We do not believe so sir. Does that mean you have a person of interest in custody or we do not sir. Okay this is a little bizarre. You have two girls found dead in the woods and a murderer who is on the loose and understandably understandably so the first question from the media is should people be afraid and the sheriff's response is at this time. No Sir. It's it's. It's a kind of a puzzling response. Part of it I think is not wanting to alarm your community. I mean you don't want to say yes. Everybody should parent pat but at the same time by saying not at this time it is sort of A. What do we do with that? It's a little bit of damned if you do damned if you don't if you think about it it's a tough message to here. I wonder if maybe that might be said differently today if they had a chance to do it over but it is a fine line. Can you tell us the cause. The manner of death. That'd be autopsy. No we cannot do that at this time because of the investigation is still still in its baby step so to speak and we don't want to put that information out yet. Can you describe for us. The the scope of the investigation the resources to people what's going on with Carol. County Sheriff's department is lead investigation They've also they've asked us to help the Delphi. Police Department is assisting We have the FBI what's called RT team. Which is the evidence collection team that it is here have and they're also providing other resources? At this time we have not put all together. You know we've mentioned this a bit previously see but now we know from this news conference that the F. B. I.. is involved and Sergeant Kim Riley says in that news conference it's the evidence response team and and other resources right so obviously leads to the question is what are those other resources. What's the scope of the FBI's involvement because they don't get involved in every murderer right? This is also where I think it sort of begins that cups in this kind of get a reputation for being tight tight-lipped. They're not revealing a lot of information they can't at this point and that's something that's going to be sort of a theme throughout this investigation and so we got a lot of new information out of that news conference but as we're about to find out they are not quite done for the day Hey everyone it's Dan simply safe home. Security is the highest level of security. You can have with. Police dispatch up to three hundred fifty percent. Had faster than a normal burglar alarm with simply safe. You get comprehensive protection for your home. Outdoor cameras and doorbells. Alert you to anyone approaching your your home at entry. Motion and glass break sensors guard the inside. If there's a break in the US real video evidence to give police an eyewitness accounts of the crime ride plus simply safe protects your home from fire water damage and carbon monoxide poisoning to and it's all monitored twenty four seven by live security charity professionals. You can set it up yourself no tolls needed or they can do it for you. It's only fifty cents per day with no contracts. You'll get free shipping dipping and a sixty day risk-free trial. You've got nothing to lose. Go Now Ambi sure you go to simplisafe dot com slash D T H so so that they know we sent you that simplisafe dot com slash d t h Part to a blurry picture and Barron Woods well and I think you know as more of the story came out and then you know the kind of learned where the picture came from. I don't think you you would find a classmate to say a bad word about abby our liberty they they were just great kids Liberty just one of the world to be kind and abby wanted everyone in the world to have things kappa gift at Christmas. We are following breaking news. Tonight out of Indiana. Someone has murdered two girls one just thirteen years old the other fourteen and in their search for information they are trying to locate anyone who was in the wooded area at the time time including a male subject seen on these photograph. They were just released minutes ago by the Indiana State Police. They say they would like to Ask this person what he might have seen. That's Gene Cassara. She's anchoring on H. L. N.. That night talking through what happened that day with her guests when and the photos are released the two photos in question are blurry they show a man walking on that same bridge around the same time as the girls. The Indiana State police said the photos quote appeared to depict a white male wearing blue jeans. A blue coat slash jacket and a Hoodie. Those are the broad strokes of the person in these photos beyond that you see a man with his hands in his pockets walking on the bridge looking down. He's framed by the kind of woods you see in winter bare branches dead trees. That was just one of the many things to talk doc about that night Christine Grillo. There was a press conference today and this is a small community. They're not used to this. They have called in the FBI to help with recovery. They are still processing the crime scene as we speak tonight. They haven't said if they've recovered the cell phones. How important is that? I think the cell phones are going to be very important. It's not too long before we learned. That is an understatement. As you see the snapchat photo that you put up there is a very telling photo it gives probably the last the person perhaps that saw them alive. The cell phones are going to give a lot of information there. Also not releasing certain information. They're probably taking this investigation very slowly and very he carefully. They're not releasing how girls died. Perhaps because they want to investigate further before saying something before tipping someone off so the cell phones are going to be very very important the information and the communication that might have been picked up on those cell phones right before their death. Christine Grillo is sitting in a New York. TV Studio Oh and she couldn't know this yet but she was absolutely right about that immediately after this picture was released everyone not involved in the investigation including TV. Legal analysts were asking the same questions and are starting to draw some conclusions. Listen at this picture again. That was just released. East of someone they say was walking along the trail. The Delphi trail. This is the modern high bridge possibly was a known own place first of all. I am shocked that there was a camera. I want to know where I wanNA know where that picture came from. And the thing about it that you were talking about genius this is broad daylight. Hi this is two o'clock in the afternoon and it's a small town in a small community and the benefits of living in the small town of the small community is someone there has yeah or if the person is not from there. We'll be able to see. Did anyone see him. Did you see some suspicious whether any cars are there cameras in the parking lot of the trail your hope if it's a state or government property that they have some semblance of surveillance that tracks who comes in and who goes out and I got to piece the puzzle together Christine. The bodies of these two young girls girls were not found actually on the trail. They were found off the trail actually on private property but close to a shoreline so kors couldn't get anywhere near where those bodies were found. So it could be that you're doing that so you're hoping no one does find them that there's more decomposition to the bodies less evidence found and I don't know what these murderers are thinking Christine when you when you look at the crime scene and they are continuing to process and the amount of evidence. Here's here's the cold hard fact. One of those two young girls most likely witnessed the murder of the second of her friend. Guess they're going to be able to find out a lot of information and you hope that there's going to be discretion attached to all of this that if that information is not going to lead them to a conviction of the murderer of these two girls girls that that is something that maybe they won't share and it won't be they won't say that it's clearly determined because that is a horrible thought it really is and they are. They should be afraid. You're right there is a killer on the loose. These are two young girls doing something that young girls do and somebody found them and killed them. as is a picture makes headlines in sparks more questions. The family is straddling two different emotions. Loss and optimism that the picture will start filling in some blanks. Here's how Libya's grandfather might patty sitting with his wife. Becky remember just sitting here. Both this is so such disbelief that this has happened so I don't know when they shared that information with this if it was before or if they just released that information out which was a picture of the we all refer to him now as bridge guy I I do recall. It seems like it was a person of interest that we WANNA talk to for Kerry Timmons. Liberty's mom it was just one more thing so there was suddenly all this speculation of is there a trail cam is there you know I think that was probably the biggest one there. There had been a trail came out there. So it's all caught on video and and then there are people wear whereas this trail cam and I'm just like we didn't know immediately. That had come from her phone but then I think they released within a few days after that that it had come from her phone but then then all the rumors started. We'll we'll do. They have her phone to they. Get it from my cloud. Where did this come from so that just it was all really crazy night and everything kind of happened and pretty quickly? I mean we were suddenly like planning a funeral planning of viewing and and it just grew it was. It was so big so when you look at the chronology of the story from in February two thousand seventeen to where we are now. It is littered with big moments and this is the biggest one to date. The picture is from video on her phone. And it's interesting because we know now that it's from video but at the time families the Media People Watch watch it like we didn't know that right they didn't say where I come from and people were wondering like was there a trail cam out. There is surveillance camera. Then we find out it's from Libya's he's phone she's called a hero for that. I remember when that photo came out. And they're saying this is just somebody we wanNA talk to and I remember being skeptical immediately immediately. That wait a minute. Is he just somebody you WanNa talk to or is he a little more than that. I remember Working Rachel and at the time and being in the control room I we were covering during this case and I turned to the producer to my left and I said look police are calling. This guy is suspect but I we all kind of know where this road is headed and this is also. Where are we learn a nickname for him? Because he is unnamed so people start calling him bridge guy which is sort of morphed into b g the initials. It's also where there begins. Laser focus on the bridge the dimensions geography which direction the Guy was coming from. Where on the bridge? That photo was taken. There is just a hiber focus and fascination and interest on the bridge itself there's a lot to dissect about that photo to. What does it actually show us? Our his hands in his pockets are his hands in his jacket. Let's see wearing exactly. Does he have something on his head. Is that a shirt tail. If the walls of this writer room could talk about the things we've speculated in that photo at least fifty five different things what they are what. They aren't what they could be what they can't be. I mean the speculation in the guessing of what's in that photo is literally endless. And you think when you hear that there's a photo of somebody party that you would be able to tell what they're wearing what they look like and in this photo you just can't and if you WanNa see these pictures you can go to our website which is down the hill podcast dot com. And we've got all of the materials there. See you can see everything yourself. There's a lot to look at it in the story three. So it's a great spot to find all of the visual elements maps photos. You know all of that stuff and when the photo was released everyone believed that someone must has to recognize this person. That was the early feeling since then that pictures been poured over. It's been analyzed and it's been picked apart by anyone and everyone with an interest in this case especially investigators here's ISP superintendent. Doug Carter as we've had a lot of work with the photograph and you can't make that better for the public. Can I ask when you look at that. Do you see a hat to DC hair. Do you see a hood do you know. Yeah I mean I I I do I do again a not a long time ago. I I don't look at the head anymore. Look everything else we know about this. I I am. We think what we feel about this person. We know what his body looks like. I Walk Talks While the people of Delphi wrap their heads around the photo of the man on the bridge. There's a wave of media on the way. Hey everyone. It's Dan over the last two chapters. We've taken a little time out to find some moments. Does that give us a sense of who abby libby were. And this time we're going to hear from Cynthia Rossi. You met her before earlier in our story. She and abby were a very close friends. So here's Cynthia with a memory of summertimes in Debbie. We would always spend our summers spy her pool and we just loved eating watermelon while sitting on her porch under an umbrella by the pool in we would always take are watermelon slices and set them out on the railing of her porch in wait for all the butterflies to come in. She loved watching the butterflies utter flies. She has always loved butterflies. They were just such a huge part of her life so huge symbol in her life. And I'll just never forget a sitting there for way too much time just staring at butterflies. I just remember whenever we spend our summers together. We just felt it free from school in responsibility in. We just felt like we could spend quality time together in. We wouldn't have to worry about homework or any assignments and I think she disliked the fact that they were free and they just flew wherever they wanted they can do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted and I think she she just liked that about them. We'll have more memories of Abbey Libyan the the people Delphi and upcoming chapters for now though let's get back to the show Hearts three a little beehive. Nobody smiled. I mean nobody smiled for days It was just just this. It gives me goosebumps. Still think about it just it was sad it was A very slow pace It wasn't wasn't that people were suspicious of others. I think that came later. It was just this era of I. Don't I don't even want to be here. You know I don't know what to do with myself. And we were flooded with media and so if anything you saw a lot of media trucks and people interviewing lean and people just stopping in wanting to say hey. Do you WANNA say a few words on camera and you know locals just we were all still trying to process what in the world it happened Barbara. I think the story is stuck out. I think there's a couple of different elements. It's a small town. Bits considered a safe place and then something really terrible happen there in broad daylight and then it only got more more bizarre from there right. I mean if this happened up the road in Chicago or an Indianapolis it wouldn't necessarily be the lead on every single news channel and I think the other thing. Is You know the media in a town like this. The story that they were coming to cover it wasn't necessarily the sore there. We're going to get or that. They're going to because of the twists and turns that continue to take place. Exactly IT'S A. It's a bizarre story. We generally know how these things are going to end and in this one. Nobody could have anticipated where we are today in a lot of that at at this point is falling on the shoulders of one man in that sargent came Riley from the Indiana state police. When did this release? Start this case. Start to really get the media attention outside of this area. I'M GONNA say late late that night or early. The next morning we started to get believe it or not we had the BBC showed up out of New York. Had A couple of the reporters. Here I was getting phone on calls from other countries. It was just starting to snowball. I mean I've dealt with national news on other another things but not to the way this this was and it was just a whole new experience for me and it was time to call in some help for me and I had some great other. Just they came in and assisted me and backed me up where I would do. One thing that we'd be doing something else behind the scenes so it was. It was nice to know that I had that kind of help. NOPE For the first month or so it just it just continued and the interest just kept rolling and growing. Why do you think there's that interest? I think once we kind of got out of what happened and the information that we did put out there. I know at first. We didn't put a whole lot and it was. There's reasons three aces on the ground. When you're looking for the fourth one in a card game and you know that's kind of what we're trying to do is hold all the information and we could But yet yet still feed the media as much as we could and I know there's a fine line between those two and it was and there was a couple of times I probably said something I should have not aww said but it was one of those things that it was just. It was hard to hold back and I always conferred with my lead detectives Both in the sheriff's department harm and and our guys and with the FBI when we did do news conferences or when we did when they knew I was getting this information was getting ready to put it out. I always ran up by them before. For most of the time before there was time I could not do that but ninety percent of the time I tried to run everything by them before I talk to the media because I didn't want to say something that was going to jeopardize or hurt the investigation. So it was. It was a fine line on what we were doing. But we try to do the best we could with the information we could put out there while Kim Riley is managing the onslaught of media the appeal for tips and leads at yesterday's press conference is clearly being answered. Hundreds of of them have already come in and while that's happening sheriff. Tobe Lazenby is managing his team of investigators in a community dealing with a sudden influx of. Well everyone is that sudden swarming. If you will that occurred in our our community were down by law enforcement media the governor himself you know coming on board. It's just the over initial overwhelming feeling on every yet You know where we currently are now. The DELPHI city building thing. It's like watching a little beehive. Oh main with all these investigators in and out the door all the time with a file in their hand and going to follow end window. Whomever I remember seeing that first couple days around the you know once? We were organized round the clock. I mean there were million million nights I was up there till maybe one or two in the morning and still seeing guys and now the door all the time following in things those those things they were following up on would lead them to a property on the southwest side of Carroll County. Here's h anchor. Gene Cassara is again with Lindsay eaten. She's a reporter based out of Indianapolis. We do have information to report. The state police are serving a search warrant at a home and Delphi. This is in in response to information. That police received through tips and through interviews giving probable cause to search the home. No word on whether there have been any arrests at this hour we do want to begin tonight with Lindsay eaten she is a reporter for CBS. Four Fox fifty nine in Indianapolis a Lindsey. You are at the seeing tonight. Tell us what you have seen with executing of this search warrant at a home correct correct. We've been out here for about an hour Eight phillies did service search warrant at his home within the past hour some of the authorities have left there is still quite a large presence of authorities out here we have been detected if is bringing them boxes from this home. There's a field next door to this home. We called detectives with flashlights looking through the field. at this point the the latest we have heard. No arrests have been made troopers are stored Riley actually just pulled us about an hour ago. That they don't anticipate any arrest to be made aid. This was sort of following up on a tip that they received in the he said. This is just another piece of the puzzle. They're following up at each. And every Lindsey. I want some more detail here. How many boxes have you seen a forties takeout tonight? Have they taken anything. Other than boxes. Any carpeting any mattresses Taurus's anything we have not we have not we saw. Maybe just a couple like I said we got here around seven o'clock we saw maybe a couple of boxes taken from the home. I can tell you there. There's no crime tape around the house There are a few authorities still out here. They were searching field next door. We saw them going around the house. Ah In and out of the door and asked about it at this point minutes later on the same show Kim Riley called in from the scene of that search. Okay so you went to a judge and judge signed off on this warrant. Why did you select this home and Delphi through the investigation with the Church and the Interviews we've had had caused To going ballots. Unisearch all that when you look at the time line of this case there are multiple blips on that time. Line of really significant events in February sixteenth. Eighteenth at dusk the search of this home outside of town which we just heard Kim Riley talking about I'm trying to imagine Agean Delphi resident and hear that there is a swarm of law enforcement on how you must think that this is it. We're GONNA get this solved. This is the end of it and that's not what happened. They were there for several hours. We saw boxes coming out. The media had gathered. I mean it was a big spectacle spectacle on the edge town. You know this is two days after the murders and I'm sure there had to be some feeling amongst the folks in town because as we've mentioned this is a small town so law enforcement activity of that scale on a house outside of town within in our everyone in town knows that this is happening there has to be a feeling of optimism. And hope that there's going to be some new information new answers searchers. The most optimistic being. We're going to wrap this thing up and figure it out right. That's what it looks like. This is the first big police response. We're seeing other than them out at the scene and I'm sure a lot of people did feel that way but that's not what happened. And instead the prosecutor Robert Ives takes to facebook page that night and this is what he wrote according to the Lafayette Journal and Courier and he wrote. Please do not harass bother or accuse anyone. There are no charges pending against anyone as a result of the pending investigation. No one at the home search is suspected of committing any crime. MM please please leave these people alone and let the police work. And at the time that the newspaper quoted that facebook post they said it had already been shared like six hundred time. So you have this huge response. But then you have this message from the officials that Nothing came of that Tom but it still leaves a question. Because we heard Kim Riley say a just a moment ago he said we had probable cause also go into the house and do a search on it in order to get a search warrant. You have to have probable cause so with Bravo. 'cause we don't know so who knows about probable cause us attorney right so we have one bread Semedo Vich. If the last name sounds familiar it is also the last name of our producer. Dan Summits Ovacik the brothers. Brad thanks for joining us. He's been on the phone many days many a times for us as we've kind of picked his legal brain. How are you today man? I'm doing well. How are you guys doing doing? Well doing well. Thanks for joining us. We call Brett all the time when we have questions just the first time. We're doing it with my correct. 'cause we've talked a lot about the legal side of this case you know. Obviously there's a lot of kind of criminal investigation stuff but you know at some point. We're GONNA hit some sort of legal phase so we've talked about a lot about this but Brett. I'm curious can you Kinda give us. Some understanding of what a search warrant entails what is probable. Cause give it to us in Layman's terms for the people that don't deal with US everyday. Sure it won't Layman's terms. Probably caused means that the police have a a reasonable belief that there is evidence of a crime in a place to be searched That's boiling away down of course but ultimately to get a search warrant As a former prosecutor I can tell you this my from my own experiences. What would happen? Is that a police officer or detective would come into our office. They would have an affidavit That would be a sworn statement in support of not only their experience but also why they believe that this property needs to be searched. And what they're looking for and if it meant that probable cause standard that there is a good faith basis to believe that there's evidence that the crime on this property or place to be searched. Then that would go to the judge. The judge reviewed for accuracy sufficiency. And if there is enough probable cause the judge would sign off on that search worn. Then it's off to the races for the police specific. Do they need to be in that statement. Do they need to say we're looking for a gun or we're looking for bloody clothes. Do they need to be that specific they should be. CBS specific as they possibly can because a search warrant needs to be limited in scope. And by that I mean you can't say I'm GONNA the entire state of Indiana right. You have to say I'm searching this house this property for this reason. And here's what I'm looking for. But more importantly why am I looking for there. You can't just say I picked this Random House I wanNA search. It has to be supported by competent evidence. And by that I mean this the police have to say well we have a tip from someone. We saw a bloody pretty shoes from across the way. And there it is we want to go in and get it right. There has to be more than just a wild goose chase. It has to be supported by competent evidence. And if you you don't have that you're not going to have probable cause to grant that search and what is your experience with how high this bar is for judges when they're looking at these. The statements is at a really high bar. They have to prove that they have reason to believe. This evidence exists there or is it a low bar because this this is just a search warrant. Well it's a high burden that's placed on the judges and on the on the police. I should say and it should be because you're trying to have the police enter your private property to search for something. There's a relatively high burden that being said there's no defendant. That's arguing against why the police should not be able to go in there. The person who's the subject of the search doesn't have the ability to contest a search warrant at the outset so it's a one sided game in that regards but you still have to have enough to reach that that probably 'cause Threshold so Brent. You're saying that there's there's generally a high bar that has to be cleared in terms of probable cause there has to be a narrow scope of what you're looking for this search specifically on this property two days after these girls are murdered. Is it unusual to you that asserts. There's like this ended with nothing this soon after the crime yes generally speaking of course in my experience. If you're getting a search warrant that is really close to the crime then usually or should be supported by competent evidence. There's a reason that you're looking so quickly and you feel like it's necessary to get a search warrant within a couple of days for that property information in theory of crime is still fresh right all. That's happening really quickly. If you're getting a search warrant maybe a couple of years after crime occurred and you're trying to go back and piece things together. Well No. It's a little bit more common. The ERA GONNA strike out for lack of better term but when it's so close in time to the crime I yes I think it is surprising and usually usually pretty rare that you're just gonNA come up at the end. That's interesting real interesting bread cemetery. Thanks for joining US man. We really really appreciate it. Thank you for having me Sabar. I know that Robert is the prosecutor in Delphi. In Carroll County at the time said as you mentioned known at the home searched the suspected of committing any crime. That doesn't mean that law enforcement can't then revisit later right. But it's been three years. We've had a recent conversations with Kim Riley from the Indiana state police and he says bet search is not as significant to the investigation now as it seemed that night to them and that they went to that property they thought there could be somebody at that property. who was was the suspect and apparently the investigation revealed that wasn't the case and he also told us it's not as important of an asset set as it was that night so the property in that search warrant it would appear as it stands now? They've moved on but for the people of Delphi for property to be searched and combed over and picked through with the vigor that this police force was using using had to been some optimism. Thinking that they're going to be making an arrest but this is also part of what they're doing is they're are also trying to figure out where their attention is not needed. They're looking at people out there looking at evidence they're looking at all the different things that are coming their way and figuring out what matters letters to this investigation and what doesn't and it certainly looks like right now. That search is not a big part of this investigation and it should also be mentioned. You know we tried to get the paperwork related to that search warrant but as the ISP or any law enforcement agency will do in an ongoing going investigation that is their their justification for denying the request documents so we did did do our due diligence but unfortunately they were not stories and also because ruling out in a Lotta ways is just as important as ruling it in our next chapter. I have trouble saying those words. It's I eighty here. It would. He really remembers but that very very first time that that recording was played couldn't really understand what he was saying. It was all like computerized computerised sounding and then they were able to clean it up and suddenly it was D. T. H.. And it was like is he saying like why and I remember thinking. It doesn't even sound like urgent. He's not yelling he. He's so calm down. The Hill is written and produced by Dan San Mateo Vich Andrew Ayden and me Barbara McDonald old with original music and scoring by shoe. Sir Michael Dudley and Calen- chassis are associate producers. If you WANNA see the people places and things were talking about visit our website down the hill. PODCAST DOT COM Sherry. Selby's is H. L. N.. Senior production manager manager. Brian Bell is H. L. N.. Senior director of programming and Tyler Moody is the vice president of the Warner media. PODCAST network a special thanks to the people of Delphi and the members of law enforcement who are in charge of solving this crime and most important of all a big thank you to you. Of Of course we appreciate your listening. This podcast is brought to you by simply safe home. Security for a sixty day risk free trial we'll visit simplisafe dot com slash d t h get the best security system and most comprehensive protection for your home with the use of outdoor cameras doorbells in motion sensors. You'll see and be notified of anyone approaching your home with twenty four seven live surveillance by security professionals simply safe also so protect your home from fires water damage and carbon monoxide poisoning to no contracts and no tools are needed for installation. And it's only fifty cents per day. Go to simplisafe dot com slash D t h today for free shipping and a sixty day risk free trial at simplisafe dot Com Slash D._t.. H so they we sent you. That's simplisafe dot com slash T T H.
Marty McDonald (BOV) Bad Rhino Social that Works
"Recording sarah okay. Now i'm recording. So let's see if he can do it twice. Are we ready. I'm ready are you ready. I'm ready okay. Go hey this is mukunda from your wellness yogi dot com and you're listening to myth from broome beer whoo good job and not go all right. I'll be. I'll go away for a second. I'll be right back. Yes sir. are you ready to thoughtfully. Steer away from your revved up frenzied and far too often scripted life. Then welcome to room room. Veer with jeff smith where he guides you down. The road differently traveled by sharing unique experiences with guests who have managed to shift away from a life stuck on cruise control and veered their way into a more authentic and fulfilling one all sorts of interesting and kind of remarkable ways. Get ready to remove room beer with your differently. Traveled road chauffeured. Jaffa smith barney mcdonald. Thank you so much for being very very welcome to the show. How's it going man was going great. I'm really looking forward to a jeff. And i always have a great time soon. All sorts of podcast formats. Got me a little fired up today. Looks in just to have a great chat and we'll go from there. Yeah so talk. A little bit about Bad rhino inc dot com. And and what you've got going on that you're excited about today There's lots of stuff that i've gone It seems that way. Once you take a plunge into entrepreneurial land jer Everyday's always feel like that. And it's pretty much why i've been that is i like Of variety and the challenges that come up all the time. But you know we've been in business for seven years and social media. Marketing were in that focuses and leads with social media. That we don't do everything else that kind of releases to a digital marketing agency but we focused primarily on the social aspect. And how it fits into your marketing plan and we've had great success over the last seven years and hope to continue that in the future and Right now i'm super excited. 'cause i just put my first book out there yesterday. Wow wow for you So i just got a big box of them in in the office in in getting them out the door and it's called great beer not enough as we had a great crappier client for a while. And we've taken that knowledge and turn it into a few other clients but wanted to put a book out there One of my passions is craft beer. I don't know what that tells you about me but allows me out of tells me a lot because i used to homebrew so a cool. A couple buddies that did it. And it's a good batches. And some bad batches i i like it from the aspect of pulling communities together and people together and that's really what social media is all about is why it's drawn me into having my own agency within social media and i liked that aspect of community building small business arena as well as online. Yeah okay so this is room from vir. So part of what broom broom. Beer is all about talking about transitions but we also like tip toe through the tulips of your life. So let's go back in time and talk about Marnie mc donald's childhood. So where did you. where did you grow up. And and what sort of things did you do as a youngster sal. Back momo's forty two so we're in two thousand seventeen. I was born in one thousand nine hundred ninety five To great parents. I don't you know you can always talk about your parents. Like oh they're perfect. And ignore the worse but i saw the words. I saw the good stuff. I saw the bad stuff in two great people that always tried their best. And that was really instilled in me. All the time is you have to try your best and But no i mean. I was normal shy kid. I broke my arm when i was five. I have always one leg shorter than the other. So i had a lift in in a cast walking in the first grade or no kindergarten You know so. You have like those things that stick with the memories. But i was quiet kid. At times i was also allowed kid now. That sounds like totally different right. Yeah for the most part. I was like you know this little quiet. Shy kid in At school but you know outside of school. I think i was little bit different and grew up in did normal things. I played soccer I always would play street hockey. It was outside quite often de would always make go outside generation x. thing really because nowadays it's like every- everything's overly scheduled and require safety equipment for when we were kids right they were would kick us out of the house and and not leave at seven. Am and come back to me for lunch. Yeah no we had to check in once a day. That was the rule right swing by at some time between like a around lunchtime. I'm not only where you hungry. But you had to check in and we just go off in a lot of that stuff. You know Walking in the woods and riding bike through things and riding a bike not supposed to and then playing baseball and pick up football games and you were pennsylvania to just outside of philadelphia. Okay gotcha see. I was in. I was in michigan. So yeah our childhoods were very similar. I was born in sixty nine. So we're pretty close. I didn't see the big difference until they say like the late eighties early nineties. When i start meeting people that were born in that where they seem to be more structured. Like my sister. Who is eight years younger than i am. She had a little bit more structure in terms of activities. That she did she was she did different activities like dance and things like that she was like a little bit more structured in that but not much more she still did the same stuff for hanging out with friends 'til all hours of the day and night. It seems like even the most probably like eight thirty at night. Not like ten or eleven but doing all those things and hanging out in the neighborhood and you know having fun that way where all the neighborhood kids would hang out during the day and even in the early evening different it was before video games and vcr's and dvd babysitters get into. I didn't really even get into video games until i was like in high school. The basic ones were still around and we were. We had the atari and in television but they were never something that they could never really pull you in one hundred percent in the games got more advanced pretty quickly in the early nineties and right and they just kept going you know now look at the game feels like i'm like controlling a real person on a football field of the right right right. Well they they. Games got so much more amazing i remember having like a coleco head to head football and things like that those those little like single purpose electronic games that were kind of like pong. I'll just little led lights. You know that you move around and it's green good times so okay so you grow up and you're kind of a quiet shy kit right for the most part. Okay so then. Who did you hang out when you got the high school where you still like a quiet shy guy or did you come out of your shell a little bit. Yeah you know. It's funny. Is i look back on it as i was a quiet shy guy and then i i was. I was friends with everybody. You know. I was friends with everybody but it was never really like into hanging out with everybody. And it's interesting when my high school experience which i liked i wasn't like i hated high school. I was goes miserable keeping like my friends. Pretty close. And i never like get involved in any drama. You know. okay. Yeah i get you. I learned i was i wouldn't say it was. You know super mature for my age but a little bit more And not knocking anybody who went to high school with who might be listening to this But i always felt like. I would rather read a book or hang out quietly on a friday night. I still did a lot of the other stuff. It wasn't like i was a hermit. And but i started to grow out of that when i got in the senior in high school and getting out into a quote unquote real world. I had jobs through high school on. Begins i I enjoyed like quiet time. i still do. I still like to be alone with my own thoughts. And i don't know whether it's a sign of maturity craziness or you like yourself. But that's a combination thereof. I liked to be You need to injury. But i do. I knew i need quite often. Gotcha so that was kind of like high school. I was a little bit like that. I i know what you're talking about with With the drama thing. I remember when i was in high school I had one girlfriend in in the four years of high school that was from my own school and it was such a pain in the butt Because there was like now all of a sudden. I had this job called the girlfriend that i had to see in between i had to meet her. Like you know every every break in between class we had to meet you know and catch up and i was like oh sucks to learn. That wasn't too upset when that didn't that didn't last forever. I was like hugh. And then i made a rule never date women from your own high school so there were like two other schools. You know then. I only had the after school commitment right and this is before cell phones so young and i was a bit of an ambassador to so i had like my core group of nerd friends and then and then but we would hang out in different groups. Yeah and that. I went to a smaller private high school. So there's only like a hundred and fifty of us. I think it was the number a little tiny bit than it's pretty small. Yeah yeah In a big area too. You know like it's not like i lived in the middle of nowhere lived just outside of a major city in the united states. And right right I think it. When i did interact with people. I never really saw lake Will joe plays football or you know. Chris plays hockey. And or you know somebody was doing this as always friendly with everybody I didn't necessarily want to be involved with any of the bs drama. Like we just talked about. And i avoided it. And i think when i look back on it sometimes. I'm like ask probably a little weird at times but everybody is. You know you're growing up you know you're not mature you're learning things and do i wish maybe i was a little bit more. Social time saw a tiny bit. But i don't regret it because it made me who i was today. Sure no you know. There's always a cost right to anything you you get involved in you know So i always like whenever. I got involved in anything. I was always like this is cool. I like the. I'm hanging out with people because i'm gregarious and social but then i was. I had to go to stupid meeting. Always like there was a pro con thing right so i can definitely sympathize with your I don't want to you know. Get into that. Because i know die persons a drama queen. This guy's just you know. I get it. Yeah and then to the loud part Like i said has allowed interesting when i was. You know it out and about or involved with other people wasn't like i was shy like i might have come off that to a stranger but with my friends and other people that i would let in it was totally opposite but i just didn't want to be like out and about with like all that other stuff like it just seemed trite to me a little bit and then Kind of like what you said you like got a job with this. I don't really want that right now. He's booker watch a movie or go. Listen to music in and figure those things out so Yeah i think we're we're on the same page it was like we're always sort of like Outside the core group of friends we were like to win. Do we like this right right. Yes i'm with you okay. So i'm assuming there was a college experience somewhere. After high school. it was yes. There was a college experience. that's for sure. Let's talk about us so My entire family had gone to penn state. Okay now. I did very well as a high school. Student think is because the school i went to a very good high and had a lot of structure from a standpoint of getting ready for college right But i hated being in a classroom. Like i just i was just like You know like it was a chore like for me to sit there and there are certain classes. I love certain classes. I hate this like everybody else. But i like. The structure was so stifling. Sometimes that was just like You know. I don't know what i'm gonna do with college thing. My parents especially my mother never thought that i would get make it past one year school room. Wow i did not. I was not really good. I don't like people telling me what to do. Hence owning my own business ever yes. It is never really big on anybody telling me what to do. Not that i was not at all. I mean there's certain things when you're growing up that you feel like you know it. All right quickly earned those things not that. I wasn't open but she was like man in. She said like after my first year college. And i was definitely going back for year two. I remember we out to lunch and she was just like i'm really shocked. I was like oh why she's like. I'm just shocked that you're still you're still going to school. She's like. I thought that after your first year you were gonna come. Tell me that you wanted to work for your uncle and landscape in to sleep school behind and i was sitting there thinking. Well i was up a really good time at college because okay. I my college experience. I went back to speak to the business club. After i graduated years after i graduated and i just remembered it after everybody laughed like professors and everything. And they just like okay. You know here. We go the introduction and it was the students that was like you guys wanted to hear like how i got out of this place. Do you wanna hear like what. I figured out what i'd figured out was i had one professor Early on dr verney. And he had said you know he'd scindia's for diploma and he said tongue in cheek. Okay i remember. There were discussed already. I know i know. Afterwards i went and i just kind of santo like this is pretty interesting. Why are you say that all the time. And he's like well he's like you know he's like you think about grades and you think about that and he's like you want to think about your experience but you also want to learn what you want to do so i started looking at it from a standpoint of like how do i get out of college but then how do i just you know graduate because all your electives like biology and chemistry and all these other things part of it was. I learned a lot of in high school because it was pretty advanced in my high school. When i got to college. I went to shippensburg. And i'm not knocking ship. But the state school from a university level wasn't advanced as high school. Right right right. I was frustrated because a lot of those kids are in catch up mode basically. Yeah i had the same experience. Yes yeah. I was kind of like this. You know like you can say the arm if you want okay. Good was this. Because why am i going to do this and i. He'd said he's like you know just to really well and what you wanna do and then figure out the math and graduate and that's basically hacked college. I act eleven. I if you look at my you can look at my transcripts. It's kind of funny. You'll see as bs and a sprinkling season my business courses for the most graduated with like a three something so like a b. plus average right. And then if you look at the other stuff that i did. It's like wow like. Is this guy even functioning as a human. I figure out. Like i need like fifty two on this exam. Like how do i get the fifty two and just to keep the average get like a c. or even a d. and then it was like for diploma and it worked out and it worked out in worked out to be. I like all that side. That's kind of a hack and joking right was i was very social in college I hung out with a ton of different people of all different backgrounds. I met so many different people. But i went into my adviser and i said look. I'm like my grades are what they are. How do i make sure. I get a job. And he was like well. He's like what do you like. Do i like to work. You know like i'm landscaping. I'm not shy of hard work. And he had said okay well ply for these internships and i was one of the few people that are applying that had like real work experience. I locked the only way i can think of is. I looked in. I did really well in the interview. They just like me. Because i was talking about real stuff about showing up to work rather than what experience or you're going to give me and i got internship. Turn into the second internship that turned into third the fourth and the fifth. Okay without the internships. I would have probably had a tough time getting a job even in a hot job market in the late nineties because my grades were lousy and i just like appeared as like a lousy student. If someone looked at my transcripts internships doing doing really well. I like once. I figured out how i was going to graduate. I actually extended one of the internship. So i could work closer to thirty hours a week and took two classes and just strung out my senior year to a full year rather than a half year. Okay and went to five full years but completed all these internships so when i started sending my resume out i was like you had tons of spam. Yeah that's how. I college and outside of that. You know just to close the loop when i went back and i spoke to the students and it was so funny i was laughing for the first three or four minutes. And they're like well. Why are you laughing. And i'm like. I can't believe they asked me to come back here to speak and There's two buildings. I spent most of my time in in neither of our on campus. And they're like oh where were they. Anime one was or keys in the other. One was maxi's near the two bars. And i'm a shot pool and talk to people and hung out and yeah. Have you been a like a blast. They were laughing about it. And i said well the reality was you know and they say this but i figured out how to graduate but i also worked my ass off to get the internships and i worked a ton during those internships to get the right experience. Then when i was interviewing people and at the time i was a head hunter and head of talent acquisition was speaking back to the students mike. That's what we look for and we don't really care what your favorite class was. We're going to ask that question what we don't give a shit like loose warmer. Yeah in terms of putting this with You know with like your life experience to date model to leave. It means somebody that got a to just barely graduated and had like three or four internships versus somebody that was a student had no real experience leaning towards the student as a potential person right And that was i opening for them and they had a blast talking about it. And i i i sat there for about another hour. Almost an hour and a half afterwards asked answering questions and i was like this is pretty cool like resonated with them and it was just ruth right right. That's great though. I i can imagine all the college professors are cringing. Great shit you know what. That's where i will say. The college professors that did have in my management classes. Were not full of shit okay. Well that's good. They came from real world. I had to give credit there They came from real world jobs. They all had jobs for many many years before they were college. Professors and and that part really. It was cool because they taught from experience not from theory or book every other class. That was basically theory book. She's like my guide. You might as well just so quiet. The helmet you've been here this i don't need. I went to university of phoenix. And the and they're one of those the first on-line slash On a for profit schools so they take a lot of crap about being you know like a a diploma factory and you know they are a little i because they basically accept anybody that can pay but but but on the on the good side. I'll i'll say that they have a policy that says all the instructors must be working in the field idea. Remember that from their marketing. That is amazing. So i finished my a my bachelor's degree in psychology. After i retired from the air force. So i had you know way more than the first two years of college done already through to twenty years of messing around taking college classes here and there so they accepted all of those transfer credits so i basically in a year and a half finished the core of a psychology degree but all of those people had jobs in psychology. One way or the other so most of what we did in class was just pick their brain about their jobs which was great you know except for maybe the the stats class that was about. It is hard to full. Check your way through math right kind of basically just have to learn how to do but she was extra cool because she let me she let all of the class. I was only the one that take advantage of it. Use excel as long as as long as she could look at the formula. And you know that we had figured it out. That was cool right. And i was like one of the first ones going through because obviously similar age not too far off that we were allowed to do the same thing which i was like. We're going to study this stuff like in the future. Because you're just gonna have this available to understand no right exactly which you know. The thing is though. I think it's important because somebody will come up to you someday. If you're in that scenario and say hey who can set up stats in using excel. And now you've done it before you know. It's not brand new. You know you know. Yeah a good friend of mine. Old college roommate. Who's actually a professor now in dot. He worked in ton of different things he was explained to me Common core right right okay. I'm familiar okay. Like i'm watching some of this stuff online. I didn't get it when he explained it to me from the theory behind it which i can't explain norm. I going to do on this podcast right. But when he explained theory i was like. Oh that's not much different than when we were taught to do this. This and this he goes exactly. He's like where it it gets out of shape is people's people aren't looking at it. It's another way to explain the theory of twelve marbles. If you take away three you have nine. But what if i take away six and add five you know like and start to get more complex but you have to understand the theory behind it. And he's like certain people resonate with certain people won't but when he explained the teaching theory behind it so that you would know in the future. I was like oh so people are just explaining this wrong. And he goes. That's the issue. And i'm like So your point. Like i'm sitting here like hey m pro this or pro that. I'm just when when you start to dive into that theory. And not just relying people on utilizing their computers or their phones have to reach people in different ways and this might be part of the evolution night. I'm by no means an expert but to your point about explaining on the excel and all that leads to theory needed to understand that you need to really work through that so always interesting when you hear about people's different experience in education and where leads them. Oh yeah you know. I lucked out I took i up in michigan. And i think my senior year i had a class that was called business. Cluster and the my major prod project for the year and my senior year was the the instructor that was in charge of the computer people. He just had a bunch of books. You know those big ass computer books that you get in bookstores and they're all about one thing and it's like you know he was like so we. Each all of our computers computer geeks had to grab a book and then use the book to teach sell that thing and then and then make something cool. That was that was our big project so mine was lotus one two three on your profitably. Although which is learn that's why i learned all spreadsheets and all that stuff on there were like whoa. I forget why we were using lotus because it was the thing where is it was. It was the first spreadsheet Right ain't that that really got major adoption. I think. And i think it's the one that had the most Function built in and all that for complex business stuff right right it just turned accounting and all that complicated math crap on the ted. It was awesome. So yeah so that i mean to this day in every job i ever get that is still beneficial and mostly because there was no structure outside of that book you know just like read the thing do a thing to do to think back when you learn software from hook right right. It was fun. I remember that it was fine. Actually if you were interested in becoming really really good with that Any you would be able to take in read the book and then start implementing piece by piece. There's part of me as much as i love. My iphone intuitive and get into it. There's part of me that does miss that in the fact that right. You don't have the foundation. And i find that in in working with small businesses Sometimes where i'm like okay. It's not just as simple as logging onto facebook and twitter and instagram. And then just starting this like you need some of these basic principles to get started. It would essentially be going into lotus one. Two three and being like okay. I'm just gonna dump all of my business data in here and not know a damn thing about any of the functions or what. It's supposed to just be like okay. Here's all the data just threw it all up in here now. What and expecting it to work and it's fascinating because right go back and think about it and nowadays you don't even get any booker instructions with anything right Riley's like jewish where you started taking outright in. There's something to be said about technology there but at the same time It's pretty fascinating to me that when you go back and you think about like i remember those books and they were thick and they weren't even dummies books. They were gino. Worrying boring. ya every little every little thing you could do. And in a in a spreadsheet there was like an exercise you know step by step all you have to do is read it and then you had a functional spreadsheet with you know and you kind of learn the concepts as you were doing it you know it. It was fun it was you know. Learn by doing basically absolutely yeah okay. So what was your. What was your first job if you had one after college is probably came from one of those internships. Bet it kinda did so. I graduated in eighty degree in business administration with a concentration in Basic management and human resource management which was relatively new in the nineties. I'm coming out of personal but personnel. Or whatever you wanna call it But i liked it because of The the the people aspect of it not from dealing with people but from the psychology piece and i gravitated towards that and they took. I wanted to find a job my first job. I was a little bit picky about. I just wanna take a sales job or didn't want do Something that was just like your quote unquote will pretend. The management trainee program and i went to franklin mint federal credit union and there was a small credit union. But i got to do so many things for a young professional. I got to do payroll and learn about benefits and interview people and hire people and workers comp and get to do all these neat little things. I was great about it. In the reason i wanted. That type of job is. I wanted to learn what i liked in that profession and what a hated in that profession took about six months to figure out what i liked. What eight right right and that was like. But that was the purpose of the job. I turned down some some pretty cool jobs. It's pretty neat. Little potential companies In the late nineties. And i just looked for this little thing and i look back on that Because i left there to pursue more recruiting. Which is what. I gravitate towards okay but i had a lot of great managers and people that were looking out for me. Not just as a Professional but a person in it was a nice first job. didn't pay much But that's like everybody's first job right right gave like mini foundation to at least a start off my career for sure what you learned what you wanted to not be good at right was payroll this in the thing. Is everybody's so sensitive about Payroll stuff and then when you're in it you know it's just like any mistake is just like you know you could get everything right for years and years and years and years and years and you make one stake. It's like it right then they never tell me. Never say thank you for keeping the network three hundred and sixty four days but on that on the three hundred sixty fifth day. When there's a hiccup you're an asshole. I made after doing so i did payroll on my own. So twenty nine times So year in a few urine. Six weeks Every other week and I remember i made one mistake. Big mistake jared. I miss some minor ones which are easily rectified. Like hey missed the one over time. Our by you know by one hour. It's okay. Do you mind if i just throw the extra hour on next week. And then i'll just write it and let your manager know and oh yeah that's no problem. One day screwed up was with one of the executives and it was with the bonus and then 401k where it was going and this is a big tax ramifications when when max out your 401k and all this other stuff and i'll never forget like that was like the last straw for me. I just like i did this for so many weeks. Like perfectly minus these little teeny tiny mistakes that were easily rectify that anybody would s right and i just remember him like being unhappy rightfully so like it's a big deal and it was one of his first one's coming up in within the company but just remember walking out of that meeting. I'm like you know like like bent. Like i was getting i love it. It's like one one one little thing. But then i went back and i was thinking but you told me you wanted it the other way and then make which one is it you know and they went back and i was thinking and then i look at my notes which i keep a notebook with me all the time so when somebody says something i take a lot of notes and i went back and looked and i'm like no he wanted it this way and then told me i did it wrong and it was like. I'm okay if you need it fixed. But then like my manager. Was there like the president of the company. Was there like all these your. It's all my fault. They're going to throw me under the bus. best way. Possible to make sure this smoothed out. And i was like you know what now and i was like. That's really figuring you got to focus on what you're good at. Because life's too short to worry about like mundane stuff like this where you know. You're gonna make mistakes and anything you do. Nobody's perfect but right. Let's start thinking about things on a broader perspective and it was that moment where i was like all right. It's time to to change gears here. Yeah no sure. There's definitely jobs out there. That are typically like i said you know like every day you never get credit for doing it perfectly right and then you're a war criminal with the right mistake. Yeah i know. It's not the happened to my wife just recently. So and they actually got so upset at her that And it was just you know just like a minor thing. It was her fault. I mean really. But i mean she's been working in like thirteen years doing payroll and this is like the first major mistake and of course again. No thank you. So yeah i get it. Yeah and you know. Not that i look for a pat on the back on everything that you do. I don't or do i want that. But they're nice. Yeah but it's like the basic stuff. It actually applies to more and more. I see it in business and in stuff that we do is people when things are perfect. He'll say peop- right and things are rolling like ask is great At the end this is cool. And then you start doing something good or even better on top and then it's like. Hey this is like a one time thing that we're going to do Are you okay with it. Sure you know. And we like look. There could be some different types of responses. There could be some things but we think it'll really work out out now. That sounds great. Okay awesome then. It works out great. Let's say and then they're like well. Why can't we replicate this each month. And then you're like well we just went above and beyond to do it as a test like we'd like to do that but you know it's gonna cost you x. If we continue to do that and we kind of told you that before we wanted to do it. And we'll see what happens all the and then it's like it turns into this whole thing like you upset and easy and it's the same analogy. It's just always interesting to hear right. Yeah no right you get you get a whole different dynamic win client Client out whatever you know service provider client relationship. Yeah you get you get like so many different things on both sides it's it doesn't necessarily matter whether it's a client relationship or an employee employer relationship because at the same time. There's a lot of things that go in there like everybody. Everybody carries their own baggage. Good better indifferent into it right and then they have different expectations even after you get off the phone with them. Even if it's illustrated powerpoint presentation dog and pony power. You know youtube videos right right. They leap that and they say is going to be awesome their own page in. It's never the same we leave. Because we're like this is going to be awesome. Because of this right and they come back in their expectation is totally different based on what we thought it would be. But we're on the same page and is this like wait. What were you expecting versus what we did man. A lot of times it just relates back to the payroll thing going. Well here in my notes you said that you wanted forty five percent dumped into the 401k. And then the other fifty five percent you wanted to be paid out in two pieces but now you're telling me you want it all to go in the 401k to mac like and then you're like okay well where we miss on the same page here because you told me this versus this and it's like oh you wanted fifty five percent versus forty four. I'm sorry that's just a misunderstanding. But the expectation is that you would figure that out for them. i'm not. I'm not a mind reader for your expectation so eight that clearly right right. It's just asking extra. Follow up questions and nothing's ever perfect button. You can develop that with any relationship and it just comes back to creating those communication lines for sure. So how many jobs did you work before you Ended up starting your business. So i started I left the credit union. I went to a engineering firm where it was kind of a quasi head of their college recruiting. Okay i did that for about eight months and Who's now a friend of mine. Tapped me on the shoulder Said hey we'll have a start up Staffing firm in information technology world and It just had been like cross pass. He went to shippensburg. Graduated about nine years before i did. And there's a couple of the common themes and we just hit it off one night talking over dinner is like a mini interview and then I started there and it was genuinely a startup and we went from zero to twelve million spent five years there. wow yeah it was a long lizard. Aiding right and it was exciting and fun and a lot of work. I learned a tiny. I talked to those guys regularly and It was fun but the end of five years was time for me to go for a variety reasons. I went into consulting for three years. And that was kind of like being my own boss and right in two thousand and two is where. I really started side. Businesses I had the side-hustle before it was called the side-hustle sure. Because i knew i didn't wanna work They want to work for somebody for my entire life. and when i was with In source which was the name of the company with a staffing company. When i was there it was nice to see like people. Were actually doing what i what i originally really wanted to do. And i just started doing marketing on the side. And when i went to doing consulting doing more marketing on the side then after my consulting engagements wrapped up in i was laid off i Did more marketing on the side ryan. I took one last gig At a company called click click. Click view when i joined them in the business intelligence off first base. I joined them right before they went public and was Again in talent acquisition role. And i traveled. The world saw a lot of different things and met a lot of different people. And right when i started their march of twenty ten. We started bad rhino in august. Twenty ten in me and my partner. worked so that he would do the bulk of the work in getting. It started but i would lend my expertise. He had a lot of expertise in certain other areas and i basically worked like mad For about a year. And a half. So that i could leave I didn't know when i was gonna leave. Unfortunately i had some personal issues come up where like forced my hand a little bit which is a good thing but it was like a little bit unexpected and then You know. I was off to the races with a bad rhino ever. Since so how did you. What's the story of coming up with. The name bad rhino. That's gonna be interesting. Isn't that we keep. It is because people ask that question right like one of the reasons i kept it in capita should say not just me Wait a minute. Now that that means there's two stories here because there must have been a time where you didn't want to keep it entirely true okay a face the whole i'll tell you the whole story and a lot more sense. Yeah so my Rich is my business partner is awesome. He and i had met each other in source. He was really young. You still in college. He just started graduate school when we hired him and he and i kept in touch after i graduated and he went and worked at Oracle and once he got laid off there because he was with another company at oracle acquired and then they laid everybody off. He started a blog and the blog was going. Well that's when we reconnected. Like around two thousand seven just talking about like what he was doing in high was like keeping everything rolling since he got laid off and then With the blog he did really well and got mentioned in wall street. Journal and courier journal was on readers in reader's digest on sirius. Xm started like one of the biggest twitter chats at the time. He did a lot of cool things. And i when i started at click. I needed somebody to help me out. Because there's a ton of work and i got approval to hire somebody so called rich. I said. hey. I know you're looking for part time work while you're trying to figure stuff out a. Why you come work for me and you know you know it'll be easier to work for me etc Because he know me and it just worked out so then we started talking. One day came in my office and this is where the name starts come in and he said hey i got this idea for a business and at the time i was like i saw my side thing by kind of put that on the shelf a little bit but i was like i was already thinking about what my next plan would be but i was also thinking more one. What rich has to say. Because i do respect him and i know he had a lot of things going on in terms of his blog and he said keep asking me how i developed and built this thing and build an audience and built A crazy big following on social media. And he's like to be honest with you. I know but i don't know and i said okay. What do you think he's like. Why keep having these people ask me. And i need to have a response. But i'm thinking about forming a company in. This would be my business. And i'm looking down at my desk and on desk is. How do you formulate a social media marketing plan for employment opportunities within click how to leverage social media. How to do all this. And he's talking and i'm looking at that on my desk and i'm like huh. This might be something and they said. Look ever luma amount of time. I'm traveling all over the place but if you come up with a cool name i'll help you get started at that point. I was like. I'll help him just like map. It out in his mind into all that who knows like so richest very thorough which makes him a great business partner for me. Because i'm not at times. I think another aspects of not right so he goes all right cool. He's like well. That sounds good. And i'm thinking he's gonna be in his theros. He is two weeks for him to just come up with the perfect set of names to really start talking about. He comes back and forty five minutes. He writes down twelve names on my whiteboard and to them. I can remember the other. I can't remember for the life of me. One was bad rhino and the other one was moose horn fat right now and we started from there. We started building everything we had our first client in november and then we start really putting some pieces excuse me pieces together shortly thereafter to build what has become today and about a year into it you know. I said the rich when we first started and kind of put the pieces together to be formal. I said i don't know if we're going to keep bad rhino to you. He's like. I don't know and fast forward. I was at a marketing conference with some old agency heads and some highfalutin people in the marketing agency world and this guy pulls me aside and he's like i just wanna say like all the stuff that you did to really come up with your name your color scheme your logo all this stuff. He's like it's just phenomenal. How did you do that. You must have spent so much time. You have a a rhino. It's hard charging you put a bad in front of it. You logo reflects that that color scheme works that you must spend hours of market research and all that in america my mind. I was like if this guy is telling me this. And here's what we did. Is we sat in office. We came up with the name and forty five minutes. We said okay. Black and red. It looks kinda cool. We've favored our logo. Which we still have we keep up with a handful of cool things to wrap around the some of the story and some of the rhino pieces. I was like That's pretty good. You know like we're on something in terms of what we're doing right and we've rolled with that ever since so that's the whole story a it's some people like you need to come up with something. That's really cool like you're on safari and make up a story. I liked that story more. Because it's real into the truth there for sure. I heard the story of Of mail chimp right It's not as good as yours to tell you the truth. But i when when they when they came up with the mail chimp idea the chimpanzees were on tv a lot so the chimps were just really popular right and they wanted mail in there so they just said male chimp right and then fast forward they kinda like thought it was silly you know and kind of not very grown up but they were kind of stuck with it and then you know of course. Now they're happy with it because they're used to it but there was a time where they just hated it a little bit. You didn't get there right. You were you. Were just like me right. Maybe we'll change it. Maybe we'll keep it until you got feedback and people actually really dug it. I really like it. I have a buddy another guy that was on the show He is nuclear chowder. Marketing right and it's nonsensical but it makes a really big image right right. Yeah no hey. I love it good story. So thanks before we wrap. Let's talk a little bit you and how you got into craft beer. Because that's just. I did too but everybody's got a different story so did. Did you like bad beer for awhile. I'm a drunk. No good for you. Yeah drinking right now. How in the craft beer is a great great little thing so it was it was i was always the guy that would Try new beers all the time. Where i was like some are good summer bad always. I just I would always try a different things. Like i never wanted. Just have like. Oh everybody's having a miller laid off norway. Oh what's this beer and they're like. Oh that's like our local brewery. That was you know not really the best beer but hey they make this lagers. Pretty good right and then In the nineties member that first boom of craft beer Came through that first. Wave where you had all these little brew houses popped up which they were good but they were. They were just kind of capitalizing more on a theme for a restaurant. But i remember coming out of that like Having a handful beers that had been around since the late seventies which were like true craft beers like sierra nevada spin around and So around the two thousand seven ish. A friend of mine Brought over case anchor steam interesting. It's you know it's like it's i wouldn't call. It's you know smaller brewery. I don't know like be craft per se at the time like because there was always craft brewers around but it wasn't like this phenomenon that you see now right right and with victory brewing which is local to me and a couple of others that were floating around like yards and philadelphia and dogfish down in delaware. They've all been around for a long time but there was like any mass appeal. Like i would show up at a restaurant big. Oh my god they have. They have victory on tap. I'm getting one you know right okay. It was more like that. You know and i just started drinking these things and i just try and different things and i really like just trying beer like much like you do wine you know and right okay i was. I just wanted to taste. And then they did like food pairings and it just got into it and it was a passion to try new beers. You know wasn't like hey. I wanna go drink. Twenty of them right right. Just wanted to try them all like in. Have the different things in in different tastes in after doing it now and you know trying all these different beers An all over the country. I've had a blast like just learning the stories by them in right like logging is if you've ever read the guy that started logging nita's i think his name is tony. I can't remember his last. Check it out grateful because you listen to on on audible and It's great because it's kinda like the guy. I don't know whether he read it or somebody else but it feels like it's coming right from him you know it's a blast lake. Listen to and was just like yeah. This is really cool in terms of you know how they came about and like how they're naming beers and the company culture and the good things bad things and the risk see took in All that you know you know fun like to listen to. What i find was small business. I'm a big my achilles heel in businesses. I love small business and then i wanna help too much right and they may not be set up in a lot of the time that i look at craft. Brewing is like ban. If you guys just had like this little bit of direction here this could take off. And that's where like the. I wanted the research more beers. Not only drink them learn where their story came from. I never really thought about from a business aspect. And i was speaking at an event for pennsylvania restaurant and lodging association and i started talking about social media and how it can help your restaurant in the crowd was a bill kovalevsky in some other people from victory bills founder of it. Wow in a week and a half later. I got a call from their marketing team in about another week and a half later from that. They're hiring us as a consultant. And that's i the business part together to a passion of mine. And i have the book. That's out great. Beer is not enough and been working slowly working with some other small breweries and we're going to launch a little league campaign. We don't wanna work with hundreds of them. We wanna work with a handful and help them get started and really interact with their community appropriately. But also you know be profitable. No nobody likes to see a business coming. Go now for sure. Wow so so. What's your favorite style of beard. You have a favorite style or do you like to just mix it up a lot. Yeah i mean. I do mix it up a lot i do. It sounds crazy. 'cause this is just like when you read about everything i do like. Ipa's of course. And i've always have. Yeah but like the straight up like just pale ales now. I really like that have. They're just happy enough but they don't have all the heavy heavy hops scheme example like l. smith has a great ip a one of my favorites right kahlil. That's very very similar. But just a little bit lighter. Okay and it's just like and i've been really into pale ales a lot in drinking those because i enjoy all the taste with you. Know you don't feel like just eight ten sandwiches. Yeah you know. And i don't know you probably know this but So i kind of like have fallen in love with the west coast style out definitely. Ip right so there are east coast ipa's and the taste a lot different alive. I mean you know. They're the same style but you know. The the hops are the hop flavor in the hop aroma. On the on the west coast are like through the roof. Little crazy sometimes right and then also the The bitterness factor a little bit of really beefed up over here in the west coast. So i i tried some of the i know for sure. I had a couple of the The dogfish east coast. Ipa's and i like them but to me that is like it's almost like a different animal. It's so different. It's like oh yeah east coast west coast of which one year. It's like they're they're different. You know different I guess brothers or siblings in the same family right one hundred percent. And that's what i love about it that When you have different beers like that there's so many things that you can try and taste in. That's what is like am in a you for anybody out days when you're wondering like hey you wanna go out and get a buzz on. Go ahead try like session. I a as a little bit lighter in you. Don't think four percent alcohol and like a normal beer so to speak. And then you have like your other ones you know. It's a regular ip like eight percent. There's a huge difference drinking right to session ipa's as versus drinking like a a percent beer and You know it to me. Like i love the food pairing and some of the other stuff we can really taste it I did take a little break for a little while because my palate was like all over the map lake rows. Drinking something like. I don't know what this tastes like entering something else my dad. I don't know what this tastes like. Either and somebody told me that happens in wine and whiskey to you so you have to cleanse in between if you're if you actually want to taste it which is hard to do when you're when you're sitting in a brewery in sampling really dear. It's also hard to do. Now have a book out bing consulting with a couple of other breeze. And then you gotta try this and like this is what we're trying to convey and then you're like okay. I guess i got to try this. You know right right right. No i get it but that's how it all came about. That's amazing so yeah we go a thing. We share craft beer love well. This has been a blast. So let's talk a little bit more about what you've got going on. So your website is bad rano inc dot com and And you're helping small businesses mostly with social but it's a full service marketing operation. That's correct and then say we specialize small business but we also have quite a few mid size and even in the fortune five hundred we'd been involved with an consulting area so we've had a wide variety of people ask why we have a wide variety and simple answers we haven't really marketed our services that much We're actually just skating into it. You're seven you know doing things like podcasts and doing some other things because we based on referral and we've been able to work with a variety companies and it's really hard when somebody says. Hey there you know hairdresser and they turned to a local restaurant. Say hey these guys really killed it for us in a good way you should use them. And next year you're doing social for russia and then they turned somebody else in referral to refer all so it's a testament of the work that we've done but also makes it difficult to define niche. Sometimes that's okay. you know. i'm not a fan of niching so you know it's okay as a whole other podcast. We talk about good and bad. I know it works. it's just boring. You can't argue the effectiveness of a niche. But i would just it would just drive me crazy if i mitch. So i are brother. This has been a blast and thank you so much for being on the show. You have a good one youtube gray. Hit a blast doing it as well as great format in a fun time. That went by fast. Yeah it was pretty quick our thank you thanks for taking the time to ride along with us on another episode of bruise revered for podcast info and show notes. Be sure to head over to vv. Veer dot com. That's triple double e. r. dot com. Man that's fun to say and we'll catch up with you next time here on rooms.
Case 119: Abigail Williams and Liberty German
"Next week case Paul will be releasing the second episode of companion podcast from the files special guest journalist team clock joins us to discuss a notorious cold-case from back catalogue so there's not many events that would basically stop newsroom needs tracks but when news first started a filter through on this Thursday evening that someone has been arrested that was stunning enough the Dan on the Friday morning when when the confirmation officially came through via first by email and then w light police skuld I sort of hasty press conference and for about nine o'clock that morning when the within police commissioner Collar Callahan we stood up and said the words and Dave News to the city that they'd be waiting full for more than twenty s that someone being not only being arrested but being charged download and subscribe but searching searching for from the files on your favorite podcast APP or listen early at patron dot com slash case fall mm-hmm Arab besides deal with serious and often distressing incidents if you feel it anytime you need support please contact your local crosses Santo. I suggested phone numbers for confidential support play the shy nights for this episode on Europe or an hour abso- February two thousand seventeen presented an unseasonably. I believe warm winter for the residents of Delphi a small midwestern city in the American state of Indiana. This season was typically mad with freezing cold weather with the snowy period beginning in early January that could last for several months local schools were required to schedule a set amount of days off in anticipation of the snowfall that the young characteristically high temperatures in Delphi that year meant the predetermined snow days had gone on amused as it was compulsory for administrators to close schools down for the accumulated Tom off regardless of the weather. Delphi's students gained an extra long weekend to that month beginning on Thursday February a non with classes set to resume on Tuesday the fourteenth on the second to last day of the short winter break thirteen year old Abigail Williams packed her belongings in preparation for a slate by at the home of her best best friend fourteen year old liberty German the two goals had established a close friendship from a young age and nail attended eighth grade together at Delphi community middle school with the bunged described a stronger than most the pair were inseparable. They played Alto Sax together in the school. Band competed on the same volleyball team and liberty had recently convinced Abigail to join her on their school softball team. They both had a love for the outdoors and shared many other interests to including camping fishing rotting all-terrain vehicles and talking despite the numerous similarities sent mutual Joel hobbies. The girls had their own unique qualities abigail number friends is abby was the quieter of the two but was still very sociable and avid rada with the creative flat her mother Rana remarked doc that I beg who had more craft than she knew what to do with and there wasn't a form of odd that she hadn't tried. She spent most of her. Tom Making an assortment of creations including rubber band bracelets and debated jewelry which he often gifted to her friends she had also recently begun meeting. Tony colorful hats for newborn babies at the local hospital liberty that are known as Libby was the morale going the pair with a reputation for being Jogo de Honor Roll student dreamed of becoming a science teacher and had already light defend Daishin to achieve her goal by attending several classes at a local university enthusiastic athlete Libya also participated in many sports including volleyball Soka swimming and softball liberty lived at the home of her grandparents mark and Becky Patty along with Geraldo Sista seventeen year old Kelsey and their father Derek. She often begged batches of cookies for her family. In shoring there were always some left Daiva for her grandfather when he returned home from work <music> on Sunday February twelve Abigail and liberty spent the afternoon in the Patty's backyard practicing swing in preparation for the upcoming softball season that naught the pair emptied Abigail kroft soft box onto liberties bedroom floor and stayed up light painting peaches when they woke up the following morning of Monday February to attain liberties Father Derek made the goals a pancake breakfast the warm home weather had persisted and Abigail and liberty decided to make the most of it but spending the afternoon walking along one of their favourite walking tracks the Monan harbory trial they both shared interest in photography and in deigned to capture some senior Canadian shots along the secluded wooded track Liberty Sister Kelsey often to draw the teens to their hawking destination and at one forty five pm she dropped Abigail Gal lender liberty off at the lodge wooden sign the marked the beginning of the MON on hybrid trial in the early nineteen nineties. The development of a half mile track known as the fan is towpath trial paved the way for what would eventually they become the Delphi historic trials ten miles of groomed talking trials that stretched throughout the town the trials tight visitors pasta various architectural landmarks with two miles wanting through the town itself off while the remainder cold through the wooded outskirts forming an important element of dofas identity the trials provide a popular spot for campus fishermen trial Bach Rod as and hockey's boaters Mrs into Kayak is also tied to the waterways that law in some of the pause damone on hybrid trial. He's one of the longest trials in the network spinning of a one and a half miles like hey did on the eastern aspect town need Adelphi symmetry. It's trial head sits alongside a parking area at a dead end driveway as zero point eight five mile southeasterly Hawk leads to an eight hundred fifty three foot long historic star Corrales Road Trestle Bridge that Tau is sixty three fate about the shallow waters of de Craik. It is bad of commission since not ninety seven with the train tracks and guardrails since removed so that just the wooden railroad planks remain despite its remote rural setting the moon on harbory trial is frequently traversed by like his dog walkers and tourists as the bridge also provides a picturesque risk backdrop for wedding photos and toss school senior peaches. It's not unusual to encounter other people visiting it at any time of year from the drop off point at the trial head Abigail Williams into liberty German said Eh dan the Wad crushed Stein path that led to the bridge framed by draw fallen leaves and toll thing trays stripped bare by the winter season. The flat spacious path was easy to track making making for allegedly hawked eventually depair raged the Mon on high bridge when liberty stopped for a moment to hold up a smartphone and take a photo of the old splintered railroad of the pass ahead wanting to share their adventure with her friends and family voice social media liberty uploaded deem each to hurry can't with pitcher messaging APP snapchat the girls continued on with liberty leading leading the way as Abigail followed close behind after walking roughly ninety eight liberty turned around and took a second voter this Tom Capturing Abigail lean mid step on the bridge mm-hmm. The candidate photo displayed the teenager in her billowy burgundy top blue jeans and black sneakers with her hands talked into the pockets of the gray sweatshirt she had borrowed from liberty with her head slightly lowered. How would she was positioned in the wrought full grand of the image with the bridge stretching behind her against the dense background of baron trays at two o seven P._M.? Liberty also posted this picture to her snap chat account less than one Elida liberties bothe- Derek German was returning from enough noon of running errands in the nearby city of Frankfurt and Plan Don picking the goes up from the Monan harboring trial on his white own. Although they hadn't organized a specific amazing arm the trial didn't take long to navigate and it was presumed the goals would be finished by the time he arrived as he approached Derek sent his daughter a text message to let her know he was on his way at three four tame pay. 'em Derek pulled up at the trail head parking lot too fond that neither of the goals were there. He sent liberty several follow up text messages but received no response and he's Kohl's went unanswered going straight through to voicemail Dheri said off in search of the girls presuming he would. Intercept them along the trial having failed to cross pods with the girls by three thirty PM Derek considered the possibility that the goals had just wandered too far all lost track of time he he contacted his mother to explain the situation and word quickly spread that the girls were missing as further attempts to establish contact with attains were met with silence concerns began to shift to more serious scenarios including the girls had fallen from the bridge or otherwise sustained a severe injury has search party was quickly established with the group on the lookout for Abigail who was forefoot four with long blond hair and Hazel laws and liberty who was of similar heart with shoulder length blond hair and blue eyes she had left home wearing todd t-shirt with fringing at the him grace where pins went and Black Nike sneakers by Five P._M.. There was still no sauna vader of the girls and as daylight was starting to fade. The families decided it was tom to rebuild them. As missing Delphi police reacted immediately and officers arrived at the trial within minutes soon joined by members of the Delphi Fire Department Carroll County Sheriff's Department the Natural Resources Department and two local volunteers hundreds of people with flesh lot scale at the side while others matched the local straits looking for any sign of the missing girls at six thirty PM. Dan Volunteers visited a forty Acre property on Carroll County Road that backed onto de Craig which belonged to longtime Delphi resident seventy seven year old Ronald Logan who lived on the property for over Fifty Years Logan was informed of the incident and granted the surge potty access to comb his massive property. When non fell the search was postponed as the rugged surroundings Dane too far too dangerous to navigate in the dark but several members of the goals families remained to destroy the slave and continue to looking throughout the naught in a statement released to the community Cairo County Sheriff Tobe herbalism be maintained? There was nothing to indicate that the girls were in imminent danger and stated the police had no reason to suspect foul play the search resumed at dawn. The following morning of Tuesday February ury fourteen members of the local community turned up in droves joined concerned citizens from surrounding Dan's who wanted to lend a hand tough to sing the social media posts circulating about the missing teens and the hundreds of volunteers would divided into groups of ten to twelve with data quipped with maps and instructed to cover designated areas ranging from twenty to twenty five miles volunteers is tricked through muddy fields and roadsides checking bonds and adjacent plots of land for any indication. The girls may have been there they looked for clothing discarded drink bodos or any other belongings pay might have dropped back at police headquarters investigators said about scrutinizing CICI TV footage pooled from local businesses and security cameras positioned to need the trials but failed to discover anything of note at two PM. A press conference was cold at Delphi city. Ho with law enforcement present from DILFORD's local police department the Carroll County Sheriff's Department and and the Indiana State police officers revealed that at Twelve fifteen pm search bruce had found two buddies at the bottom of a hill in a wooded area of privately owned property fifty feet north both of the banks of the creek. The discovery was made one mile upstream from the MON on high bridge an area characterized by rough sloped terrain only accessible on foot. They refused to disclose the exact location the identities of the deceased or the cause of their death with Delphi Police Chief Steve Mullen simply stating based on the way the bodies were fanned foul. L. Play is suspected as to whether or not local residents should be concerned for their safety Chafe Mullen said he would leave it to the community to decide how they should react but advised them to avoid loyd the MONIN hybrid trial and to maintain awareness of their surroundings. The following day Wednesday February fifteen police held a second press conference to confirm that the two bodies van wearing day to those about Gail Williams Center Liberty German the pair had been located at the rear of the Carroll County Road property belonging to run over to Logan roughly half a mile laced of the Delphi symmetry mm-hmm police announced that trading case a double homicide the first Indo fi in more than twenty years though they declined to comment on the cause of death chrome saint findings all whether the murders had been a random anthem or targeted attack Indiana State Police Sajjan Kim Raleigh stated there. Is Somebody out there. Did this and we're going to track them down. Oh police released two small pixelated images. They believed Khuda their investigation. The pitches depicted alone Caucasian male wearing brown cap a scoff a hooded sweatshirt and zipped up navy blue windbreaker he was walking along with his head tilted. Dan Woods and his left hand talked into the front pocket of his baggy. Blue Jeans Dini had been captured on the moon on high bridge at at the time that Abigail lent liberty were hawking in the area but the police refused to comment on who took the photo they didn't name the men in the photo as a suspect but stated they wished to speak with him. Regarding the investigation rest Gatien efforts to identify the unnamed man were hindered by the fact that blood photo was taken from a considerable distance and his face was obstructed by his posture and attire the image was widely circulated on social media resulting in hundreds of tips to police but none led to his identification nor did the man himself contact authorities that evening seven hundred people gathered at the Delphi United Methodist Church to attend a prayer vigil showed for Abigail Liberty and the grieving families a low crime rate had once cemented the small towns communal sense of trust. I bet NASA suspicion anxiety and panic would providing dough fire local Moscow student Katie told a newspaper or just look at everyone on no now when wonder what if that was then there is only around three thousand people he so. There's an extremely good chain city. Someone a lot of people know who did it. The monin hybrid trial at along long been considered a safe place to track but one of its developer's Dane McCain believed this sense of safety would change as a result of the murders stating on no people will be afraid to now. I just know that and for that on devastated two clauses had resumed at Delphi community middle school but Olaf the school activities were cancelled for the remainder under the wake a therapy dog and cancel is but brought in to assist students struggling to cope with the loss of their classmates as school administrators implemented tougher restrictions to limit who was permitted to enter the campus campus and have contact with students. The following nod of Thursday February seeks Dane police executed a search warrant for residential property on West Bossy will bridge road along rural road on on the West any outskirts of Delphi. The Mayo homeowner was interviewed. He's premises searched and some items seized the police left without placing anyone under arrest nevertheless the the investigative spotlight caught the attention of the local community compelling some justice seeking townsfolk to flock to the address while others made threats against a man online in order to quell the harassment police publicly announced that the man had been cleared the full warning the public to leave the investigation to law enforcement professionals on Saturday February R._e._i.. Eighteen a fundraiser benefit rod held in support of Abigail and delivered these families sore an anticipated crowd of several hundred people grow to more than three thousand cars and motorcycles packed downtown. John DOE far with traffic pouring in from nearby towns into Canis raffle draws in the bake sales also took place while bracelets were sold bearing abigail liberties names along with the message Hashtag doc pray for Dole fire at four P._M.. Thousands of mourners gathered at the dough for Community Hospital Gymnasium to pay their respects during a memorial service for the girls video footage of Abigail and delete played on screening Saud and tables would covered in memorabilia paying homage to their short yet impactful lives at eight P._M.. The crowds grouped together together outside to release dozens of Golden Lane tunes into Delphi's not scar the next day of Sunday February nineteen the dough for United Methodist Church clergy invited the town's residents lynch to come in to ride their anxieties down on colorful post it notes and stick them to to lodge crosses on display inside some notes featured a single word such as sympathy fee or disbelief. Off while others contain to Lunga messages expressing Rodas anger and grief that same morning separate funerals were held for Abigail Williams into Liberty German with traffic in downtown Delphi coming to a standstill as the processions rolled through forty five minutes Bob on the day of the funerals police held another press conference in which they officially named the male who was photographed on Mon on high bridge as a suspect in abigail lender liberties murders they refused to comment on the origin of the pizza that explained that it's poor quality was due to it having been cropped from lottery meech. This update prompted a flood of Tibbs but none that immediately identified the suspect leading police to believe he may have been a loner or DRIFTA who left though fof following the crown some witnesses has reported seeing a heat shock passing through Dell fly on the day of the murders via the full lane hoosier heartland highway which connects the cities of Lafayette and Fort Wayne and Pastas directly by the MON on why Bridge Trial Oh following these reports police appealed for information about any strangers saying walking out of town the day the girls went missing up until til this point law enforcement had taken a cautious approach in their efforts to publicize the case and fond the Killa endeavoring to share crucial information without compromising the integrity of their investigation. The Public Blake quick kept in the dark about how Abigail Linda Liberty had been killed and what evidence if any had been obtained at the crime sane although the absence of information led to public speculation and rumors withholding these details was a strategic move by police to ensure that only the killer new specifics of the crime that way if a confession was ever obtained they could easily determine its legitimacy Wednesday February twenty two mocked non days since Abigail into liberties bodies were found crowds packed into the Delphi United Methodist Church in anticipation of a police press conference which as promised to unveil additional details of the Investigation Indiana State Police Sergeant Tony Slogan began the conference by thanking the community and media for their patience and support the spot having being kept in the dark stating this investigation is too important to make any mistakes and give out the wrong information the lodge group of investigators flanking Sajjan. I liked him provided an indication of the massive. A man of La Google canty state and federal resources dedicated to solving the case police provided to K- revelations the first was that the blurred images released the suspect crossing Monin High Bridge had been obtained from Liberty German smartphone. It was not established whether the police had recovered the device itself or if I had accessed its contents contents via the cloud as she crossed the bridge on February thirteen liberty had turned on her Feigns Video Camera to film The man as he was following them. Although police did not reveal the full extent of the footage or how long at went for the second revelation was the liberty had also managed to record audio of the suspects Boyce police played a segment of the Odia said those present him which a man with a gruff authoritative tone could be heard saying down the hill Talia the according to investigators additional footage had been obtained from liberties mobile phone along with other undisclosed evidence but would remain classified sergeant tiny slogan praised to liberty for her quick thinking and courage quite liberty. Germany's a hero. There's no doubt to have enough presence of mind to activate that video system on her cell phone to record what what we believe is criminal behavior. That's about to occur an extended version of the audio was played exclusively to liberty and WWL's families according to state police the longer recording recording included the ghost talking about quite stuff goes Toca about but the pair also mentioned the men walking behind them what transpired between these interaction and the publicly released audio segment segment of the suspect making the demand down the hill remained undisclosed the community were urged to report anyone they knew had abruptly missed work or cancelled plans on February thirty eight or had changed their appearance behavior treble clans sleep patterns or substance use in the days following the murders in addition to studying the suspects clothing investigators the gate is encouraged the public to consider his posture and mannerisms such as the way he seemed was placed in his pants pocket as as Mon habits may appear familiar to those who knew him police reiterated that no Dato Haitao was too small and employed citizens to name all possible persons of interest haven if they believed that individual was incapable of committing such crimes a forty one thousand dollar award was launched for information leading to an arrest with F._B._I.. Special Agent Greg Messa firmly stating he was confident that the case will be solved Indiana State Police Superintendent Douglas Khada said we must keep our resolve the Libyan Dahbi for this community and frankly to ensure the good trump's evil. He ended the conference with a message to the perpetrate off warning and if you're watching we'll find you though I march detectives from two dozen agencies would diligently making their way through nearly eight thousand tips provided via the cases phone hotline and email account in an effort to better support the large number of offices actively working on the case the investigation had orders were relocated from the Delphi municipal municipal building to the R._M._C. Building in downtown Cairo. canty messages of support were hung up in saw to motivate detectives with one rating when you feel like quitting think about why why you started a framed photograph of Abigail into liberty featured this statement some people come into our lives and quickly go some stay for awhile late footprints on our hearts and do we never have the same a nationwide campaign sore six thousand electronic billboards crop up across forty eight states featuring photographs of Abigail Liberty Liberty alongside the image of this suspected Killa with a call to action from the F._B._i.. Meanwhile disturbing audio clip of the suspects voice was broadcast extensively of a national radio stations the notoriety of the unsolved case coupled with its many unanswered questions provoked rampant rumors and speculation among citizens lose who used social media to wrongfully accused men across the country country of banging the unknown suspect this behavior prompted police to issue a warning that individuals who made such accusations were participating in defamation and opening themselves up to a potential lawsuit suit others spread online fee but theorising that the motives of the work of a serial Killa and attempted to establish connections to other run solve crimes will Reysen deaths in Indiana police asserted the murders did not share any link to other known homicides and to requested members of the public to avoid buying into any news wasn't official information provided by law enforcement agencies. The delphi community remained vigilant with many believing the suspect live amongst them local women and children saw out facility defense classes to better protect themselves while the task force was established to feel recommendations from the public as the house safety could be improved on Delphi's historic trial system Abigail and delivered these families were inundated with ongoing support with businesses and Organizations Association's holding fundraisers to provide them with financial assistance and to increase the amount of the reward pool A so unplaced on the door of one participating restaurant Delphi paid to king read in your community when bad happens we been together twenty four days after his granddaughter's Moda Mock Patty appeared at the Carroll County courthouse in Delphi to speak publicly about the case for the first time supported by his wife mark delivered a statement on behalf of liberty and WWL's families which read this horrible crime raw has to in a hallway now families that will never heal. It's the small things that seemed to hurt the most it's just natural to Hullah for them to come to dinner or in the morning to get up and get ready for school then expect them to come through the door after school the silence when we don't he voice mock explained that there was a running joke within their household that whenever Ebba Liberty was asked to do something a response would be in a minute. Hey employed the public to follow his granddaughter's sentiment in catching a killa standing on the league if she were able to speak. She would ask people to please give her the one minute she always asked for to really study the picture of the suspect and listen to the audio clip mark candidly defined the unshakable bond between Abigail and liberty quote the the goes a heroes. They stuck together on Diet now exactly what happened out there that day but I imagine there was probably an opportunity unity for one old both to separate and try to make a break in different ways that does bills loved each other. They were good friends nor the one of them left h others sawed following mark patties emotional play tips to police increased two hundred percent with the total number provided now exceeding eleven thousand despite the number of tips and hundreds of subsequent interviews the lack of major breakthroughs led to several police departments scaling back their involvement in the investigation pledging to return when their resources were required Indiana state a police Sergeant John Payroll explained. This is emotional for all of us. I can tell you that it's not easy and a lot of people of putting a lot of work into this. We're hoping that the tips there and we're going to find it on Saturday. March eighteen fifteen law enforcement offices executed a search warrant at the Karaoke Anti Road property where Abigail lent liberties buddies buffet on a little over a month earlier that the tom the search warrant was carried out the lane. Darna seventy seven year old Ronald Logan had been in custody for a week after the meeting to- violating probation for an unrelated drink driving conviction from two thousand fourteen court mandated conditions forbade logan from operating a vehicle and to win required to provide an alibi for the K. date of February thirteen two thousand and seventeen he admitted to driving two miles south to the Carroll County waste transfer station to discard some garbage he had fully cooperated with search efforts allowing volunteers and police to inspect inspect these property for the missing teens later describing the grim outcome has locked being hit with a bolt of lightning two weeks later he further violated the terms of his probation when he was spotted drinking king a beer at a pizza restaurant and was placed into custody. The inspection of Ronald Elegance home was just one of approximately a dozen search warrants that had been executed so far in the investigation detectives ultimately ruled ally Guinea out as a suspect in the murders that he nevertheless found himself funded the harsh scrutiny of Internet salutes whose efforts to Lincoln to the mood is made a profound impact on his reputation as he awaited trial for his probation violations Logan had to be transferred to a different canty jail. He had a fees that he safety. He's attorney issued a press release that read I have known Ronald Reagan for several years and have represented him in unrelated legal matters stated simply he had no involvement in this heinous crime. I would like to caution the public to avoid loyd jumping to conclusions before law enforcement has completed the ongoing investigation Logan was subsequently sentenced to three and a half years in prison for being a habitual traffic offender but he sentence tints was later reduced to home detention four and a half months after the murders have been gale's mother. Anna Williams posted a video tribute to her daughter online and featuring photos of her from infancy through childhood with the Caption Tomorrow June twenty third two thousand seventeen have a guy will joyce Williams would be turning fourteen. It is still unbelievable believable to me that I'll wind be making a cake and planning her party not these she not next G. Please remember her tomorrow and every day hello to one our rabbi goals birthday family and friends gathered at the Delphi United Methodist Church to release dozens of colorful lanterns into the sky after five months of dedicated investigation with no arrests tips from the public had slightly dwindled to less than ten per day on Monday July seventeen in N._F._l.. To Rig not the case police released a composite sketch of the suspected had killa diskette had been created using descriptions provided by witnesses who traversed on or near the Mon on hybrid trial on the day of the murders the sketch had taken months to construct due to the gradual agile pace at which these witnesses came forward coupled with tawny took for investigators to verify and Colli details between this statements the Mayo suspect was described as Caucasian between four AH foot six and five foot ten inches tall weighing one hundred ninety two two hundred and twenty pounds with Reddish Brown hair and an unknown Oi Cola. The sketch depicted him as middle aged with a square face short here small wad said is and a lodge knows with a neatly trimmed goatee in the drawing. He wore a flat cap but investigators established. This data will not be accurate has multiple multiple witnesses were unable to agree on it. They advised the sketch. Should I be viewed as a God and not as a one hundred percent accurate representation of the suspect Indiana State Police Sajjan lodging came Riley stated. We're going to get to the bottom of this sooner or later if the composite sketch helps us get there sooner. That's what we're hoping for. Following the release of the sketch investigators were inundated with information from the public with one thousand tips coming through in the first twenty four hours alone the new enquiries led to over twenty arrests for unrelated crimes including including a decade long unsolved murder case but none that pertained to Abigail and liberty the schedule so fueled Internet's fluids has uses began sharing the image alongside photos on mount shots of men they believed matched its description. Police issued yet another play in an effort to occur tau the speculation explaining that unfounded rumors and gossip offered no value in their investigation and the only served to waste everyone's gone as the six month anniversary of Abigail liberties deaths drew knee the case was starting to languish six thousand electronic billboards that had once broadcast the suspect she made you across the country would no longer active and Dole died the total number of tips from the public had reached twenty four thousand the team of investigators actively working on the case dwindled in dude regardless Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Lesin be remained optimistic that the killer would be caught telling a local news reporter by still operate on the theory that good outweighs is evil when liberties grandparents mark and Becky Patty meant some Indiana residents who had never heard of the case or seeing the suspects image before they decided to front their own awareness campaign pain they set to work distributing wanted posters depicting a suspect and soon thousands were on display. You'll live in the country Becky Patty told Indiana newspaper Journal and Courier we are asking everyone will live at the United States to help us. We want to cover Dean Toya U._S.. With this pitcher so he cannot go into a town where there is not a fly US daring him in the face her husband husband Mark added police are not giving up and neither away almost spend every day of my life trying to catch this guy still believe someone out. There knows something on Monday September twenty five two thousand seventeen roughly one thousand miles west of Delphi in the state of Colorado thirty one year old Daniel nations and his wife Caitlin were pulled over by police the red Chevrolet prison they were driving matched descriptions of a vehicle that had been involved in a racing incident according to witnesses a couple in a red car had vein threatening passes by with a hatchet along tribal neither Colorado Tan of monument nations denied being involved but a subsequent search of his car yielded a hatchet in the trunk along with a twenty two caliber Abbas semiautomatic rifle offices ran Daniel nations name through the police Dada base and discovered he had a criminal history spanning a decade which included convictions for public indecency driving violations relations and domestic battery in the presence of a child as a convicted felon he was prohibited from owning a firearm and police took him into custody. Daniel nations arrest is to call the attention of Internet sloughs who speculated whether he could also be responsible for the murder of local sock list. Tim Watkins who had been shot and killed on monument trial ten days earlier on September fifteen. They also noticed that nation's bore a resemblance to the composite sketch of the unidentified suspect wanted in the double homicide of Abigail Williams into liberty German blocked the sketch nations had a goatee short hair and similar facial features including a thin math brute nose and a wide said is this loch ness combined with these violent criminal record and the fact he had been. Living in Indiana had the tone of Abigail lent liberties murders led many Dacosta suspicious saw towards Daniel Nations on Thursday September twenty eight investigators from Indiana flew to Colorado to interview nations and dancing. He was the first named person of interest in the case but the breakthrough many were hoping for never came as he was soon ruled out as a suspect in November the same year fifty-three-year-old Fulmer Pasta Thomas Bruce was arrested off to sexually assaulting two women and murdering at third in a Catholic supply store in Bulwer in Missouri Lock Doc the suspect being sought for Abigail lent liberties motives bruce was between foot seven and foot nine inches tall and wore a flat cap and a navy blue jacket during the bull when attack investigators looked into into the possible connection but at led to another dead end similarly forty six year old sex offender Charles Aldridge was also compared to the sketch of Abigail Liberty Suspected Killa after the bank arrested in Union City Indiana on charges of child molestation and solicitation but hey to was promptly ruled out of the investigation as Indiana State police continued continued to review and exclude persons of interest they were forced to release a statement via social media discarding the public from sharing unsubstantiated theories or naming hypothetical suspects explaining quite art but doing so you take away from the investigation by slandering and possibly hurting those people and their families. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. If you feel you'll someone may be the suspect please notify the tip line. Liberties Grandfather Mark Patty echoed they sentiments in a news follow up urging the public to leave it to the professionals to to do their job getting in Shite. I isn't just about losing white. It's about learning habits so you can live a healthy happy. LAWF- neum is a habit changing APP that helps us develop a new relationship with food by offering personalized choices. It's easy to use news and can help boost your energy improve your mood and build your confidence to get started. You can play questionnaire about you'll gulls lost. All and dating habits are recently took the survey and as you progress through the questions noon noon provides information graphics and evidence to illustrate how the APP works and within a couple of minutes you have a pilot program. That's ready to use new means based in psychology and use as a cognitive behavioral approach to take while you make certain decisions while also providing you with the tools to break unhealthy habits. No food is labelled as good bad or off limits and you'll be assigned a team of coaches who can provide support and gardens. You done have to change it. Only one day small steps make big progress saw the trial today at noon and a m dot com slash case ball. What do you have to lose visit? NEUM DOT com slash case ball all to start your trial today. That's NEUM DOT com slash case ball the loss the weight loss program. You'll nate. Did you know that most break ins take place in the middle of the day between six A._M.. And six P._M.. And according to studies just over ten percent of break ins a plan to beforehand that means the rest the spur of the moment crimes of opportunity yet. Only one in five homes have home security. Perhaps that's because most companies don't make it easy home. 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Go now and to be sure you go to simplisafe dot com slash case fall so they know l.. Show sent you. That's simplisafe dot com slash case for a press conference was held on the one year anniversary of Abigail Abigail lent liberties murders at the entrance point of the Monan hybrid trial flowers replaced that the soy has Indiana State Police Superintendent Douglas Cada fronted attending media praising citizens across the city state and country for the support they had provided over the past T. saying showed the very best in humanity in the worst of times since the investigation had commenced thirty thousand tips had been passed on to detectives who worked to exhaust all leads in their queue. If they failed to find the answer their plan was to start all over again. Superintendent Khada said how Al World is completely out of balance and we cannot allow able to prevail refused to accept evil as a standard bearer in American society not here these two young goes where everybody's be stored as he went on to explain that this was the first case where he's department had both image and voice recording of the unknown Killa before claiming. I believe where one piece of the puzzle away from figuring out who this individual is that evening at candlelit vigil was held in memorial of the slain teens without the gale's mother Rana stating annot people are frustrated. Nobody ever believed it would take this long and it has and we don't understand why when not happy about it it would be nice but this part to be over but it's not yet and we will white as long as it takes two months later in May two thousand Eighteen Anna traveled to Nashville Tennessee with liberties grandparent's mark and Becky to attend the True Crime Convention Krepon the trio spent the weekend speaking with the thousands of attendees and made an onstage appearance to discuss the case alongside Indiana State Police Sajjan Jerry Holman mm-hmm various matters that had surfaced over the course of the investigation were raised including the prevalence of Internet sleuthing although acknowledging these people mostly meant well the group spoke of having been accosted the bus strange's intent on divulging. They're wild theories and of experiencing the torment of social media accusations firsthand when police initially released the sketch of the suspect online controls claimed at Lutfullah mock patty and accused him of being his granddaughter's Killa. Mark had a proven alibi for the time of the murders but it didn't stop the hateful messages or allegations levelled against him an experience he described as hop breaking the panel Los. I discussed the Internet's habit of latching onto suspects who had already been cleared boy investigators studying such behaviour gave the false impression that the case was solved and Tom lauria enforcements ability to fond the real perpetrator becky encouraged the audience to join facebook page created by the goals families todd brainstorming for abby and Delib mm-hmm which instead of discussing the motors provided a space to come up with Oh I._D.'s to assist the progression of the investigation and bring attention to the case Sajjan Jerry hallman would neither confirm nor knaw the existence of D._N._A.. Evidence but remarked in a crime lock this very rarely. Do we not come up with day. He made it clear that despite police keeping details of the murders close to their chest it was still a very active in toy priority investigation black abigail liberties families they were unwilling to give up and mark the crime as a cold case as to what motivated the families families to carry on Mark Patty explained quite the anger of the fact that liberties gone that somebody's taken out goals from us. That's what drives me why have to the font they score. I'll do whatever it takes. Go to whatever place I'll have to go to on not going to stop until we catch this guy or of exhausted every effort or humanly possibly can we all it to how does community state nation somebody out. There knows this guy but two thousand nineteen to second anniversary adversary of the case came into win with no major breakthroughs two months later on Monday April twenty two superintendent Douglas Cada fronted a packed press conference delivering an emotional address to the crowd <music> quite of gut to say to the dough for community hell grateful lion you inspire people and she dined even understand why you did everything you could to support us but most. Importantly you Saranda the family of these two little goes. I will never forget it. He announced that police were now seeking the public so to identify any vehicles witnessed in the parking in lot of the Format Department of Child Protective Services Headquarters on six nine three one west three hundred north thing Delphi between noon and five pm on Monday February thirteen two thousand seventeen the time Abigail and lily will hawking the mon on Hybrid Trial Superintendent Cada expressed the opinion of police that the unidentified suspect a the currently or previously leave worked in Delphi or visited the area on a regular basis in addition he was luckily aged between eighteen and forty years old but may appear younger than his true age so he then addressed the kill directly stating we believe you hiding in plain saw it for more than two years. You never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy. They thought we have we. Luckily have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about Peyot at to you and you want to know what we know and one day you will <music> a question to you. What will those closest to us think when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls to children only a cow would would do such a thing? We're confident that you have told someone what you've done or at the very least they know because how different you are since the motives. I believe you have just a little bit of conscience left you following this statement. Police unveiled a new composite sketch of the prime suspect which looked significantly different to the original it depicted a much younger clean-shaven Caucasian man with narrow facial features and short nate wavy hair unlock the original sketch which was reportedly generated by an assortment of eyewitness descriptions. The new sketch was based the person filmed by Liberty German. It was accompanied by the release of a silent to second video exa that the footage showing the suspect in motion as he walked along the bridge with these head down and he ends in East pockets leads and updated audio clip of him speaking was also released in the extended audio file. He can be heard saying the word guys at the outset of the previously released snippet down the hill. Some members of dofas community were rattled by the possibility the murderer may be among them others were not surprised having long concluded to kill a must have some level of familiarity with the area as the Mona Nhar art bridge was not a location out so it could easily stumble across as with the release of the first sketch the second also led to an influx of amateur sleuthing on Tuesday April thirty the Carroll County Sheriff's Office posted a message on their facebook page which read play stop posting sawed by Szott pitches of papal. You think did this. You are ruining innocent. People's lives before posting Assad by Saad and legend that he's your son Bra Bowl Fava by the end of May two thousand nineteen police had received four thousand new tips with Superintendent intendant Douglas Cada Telling A._B._C. News reporters that they needed just one fauna pace if information to solve the case and were quite one tip away from success he he believed there was someone acquainted with the Killa or who knew a crucial Dato but was too afraid to come forward in the two and a half years since Abigail Williams into liberty German and worded the reward for information that leads to an arrest has increased to two hundred forty thousand dollars the loss continues to impact the dough for community with small things serving as a constant reminder the tragedy posters of the two best friends astute displayed in the windows of local businesses who vow to keep them there until the suspect is apprehended in response to a request from taints families porch lots throughout town now gleason orange and the lampposts that Boorda the Carroll County Courthouse Square a still tied with ribbons in the girl's favorite Khalas Teal and purple to remind the townspeople that justice is yet to be served when Abigail and liberties families I started receiving donations from supporters around the country that considered using the money to purchase new equipment for the softball self both field where the girls had played together but as the funds steadily increased the family said their saw it's higher and by mid two thousand nineteen construction had begun on the Abbey and to Lee Memorial Park the outdoor recreation area Adelphi residents to appreciate nature and sport for generations to come built on a conspicuous twenty-one go lot at the southeast corner of the hoosier heartland land highway and Indiana State Road to one opponent completion DB and deliver memorial Bach will incorporate three self bow fields an amphitheater two playgrounds and a walking trial in preparation for construction liberties grandfather. Mark Patty used a backhoe to begin clearing the land himself telling a local newspaper it will be a tribute to those goes long long long after I'm gone on not resting until that happens in addition to assisting with the memorial pox development and Williams has taken up a course that was closed to her daughter's heart odd and the guy who had been passionate about helping those less fortunate and one of her favourite projects was putting together care packages for children in nayed she would feel shoe boxes with school supplies and personal hygiene Jane products then sent to charities that worked with disadvantaged overseas communities and has since created Abbey's angels to carry on her daughters tradition a g in the laid up to Christmas she bands together with students from Dafa community middle school and other members of the community to organize postles to send to charities he navigates name and told a reporter that she feels fuel so during his presence with as she does. I quite disposs something that was really important to abby. She'd loved his project. It was something we looked forward to doing together and I'm glad that was still doing it in her own. AH LIBERTIES ODA sister Kelsey German does anything to Cape Sisters Story in the public consciousness speaking candidly to reporters and podcast as often and while making appearances at true crime conventions and campaigning via her twitter account that Liberty J. underscore sister a tattoo of liberties name etched onto her back pays tribute view to her youngest sister and is accompanied by the words. I can't see you but I can feel you. Liberties brave decision to record the suspect on her smartphone has since helped others facing facing therein threats during the families two thousand eighteen cronkite appearance an audience member informed the panel that he's nice was attacked in a park and because she was aware of Liberty Germans actions had the four so to record evidence on her phone which ultimately led to the capture and prosecution of her perpetrator liberties grandparents run an official news information website Todd Abby into libby dot org where you can find up to date credible information on the case anyone with information regarding the unsolved murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German in Delphi Indiana on Monday Sunday February thirteen two thousand seventeen. He's encouraged to send an email to the Carroll County sheriff's Department using Abby and libby tip at C. A. C. O. S. H.. R. RAFF DOT COM or to call the phone tip line on eight double four four five nine five seven eight six inscription on liberties gravestone nine reads the Lord took you WanNa February day to a wonderful place so far away not a day goes by we don't cross the although we know you would did not want us to Hell Haas will heal health thoughts will clear but in our hearts will keep you need the God has woken you with open arms with these love and without any more harm Cape you memories in our minds but happiness with that you he's awful hard to find you will always be a blessing. No one can replace l love for you but living without you is the hottest thing we do. We'll walk out tees for your in a better place and Cape Your memories of you that no one they can erase.
MURDERED: Pamela Milam // Vickie Lynn Harrell
"Support for this podcast comes from Microsoft teams. The world has changed and Microsoft teams is there to help us stay connected teams as the safe and secure way to chat, meet call and collaborate to learn more visit Microsoft dot com slash teams. High Crime Junkies I'm your host Ashley Flowers and I'm Brett and today I. WanNa Tell You two stories that actually happened here in our own backyard of Indiana to women with their whole lives. Ahead of them, that vanished from public places leaving behind only a tiny handful of clues. These are the stories of Pamela Milem and Vicki. Lynn Harrell. September Fifteenth Nineteen seventy-two is a big Friday. Night for the women of Sigma Kappa Sorority at Indiana. State University in Tara hoped Russia's deputies are in full swing and they've got some tough choices to make about who's GonNa make the cut this year. So the sorority sisters all meet up in their sweet and homestead hall near Lincoln Quad to talk over you know what's going to happen how it's GonNa go maybe some decorating. You know judge the place a little bit the meeting wraps. Around. Eleven PM and the girls decide to grab a quick bite before going their separate ways for the night. Now, one of the sisters a young woman named Pamela says that she's actually going to run out super quick and move her car closer to the building Pamelas a sophomore, and since she's from Tara Hokey she actually lives at home instead of staying on campus all the time. But since it's rush, she's actually staying at the Sigma Kappa Sweet for the weekend just to help out. On her way out of the house, she grabs a box of decorating stuff to put in her trunk to kind of get it out of the way to help clean up the suite and she tells her sisters that she's going to be back in just a few minutes and then they can all eat the sorority sisters wait and wait and wait eventually they start kind of. Looking at each other and getting a little worried like it should've only been a few minutes but because she is in back, they eventually just decide to eat and call it a night without her I. Mean How long are we talking? We're they like after two minutes. Let's just eat or with us like a considerable amount of time. So because this is an old case and Pretty local, Tara. A Ho-. There's not a whole lot of information out there in terms of like a precise time line of what happened on that Friday night like totally speculating here. But remember she lives off campus. So I, wonder if maybe her friends thought, she just made a last minute decision to head back to her parents house or just decided to bail last minute on. This dinner I. Mean there was no need for her to come back that night. Yeah I mean it's pretty late, and this is back in the days before cell phones. So someone changing their plan and just kind of being no shows I think is something that was just kind of more accepted back then. So no one was worried about pam that night to her sorority sisters. Maybe she just went home to her parents and to her parents they knew that that night she was going to be staying at the Sorority House. So they weren't worried about her not coming home either. But when Pamela doesn't show up for her shift at work the next morning, that's when alarm bells start going off for the people who knew her right away her friends and Family Start Looking for her and they report her missing on September sixteenth finally at seven o'clock on that Saturday night to Pamela sorority sisters actually spot her car in the back end of a parking lot across from the Lincoln Quad and it is definitely Pamelas car no question. She drives this big boat of thing this old red pontiac from the nineteen sixties with a big license. Plate on the front that says Jesus in all caps you can't miss it or really mistake it for someone else's this time of year, is already pretty dark out. So the girls actually go back to the sweet and get a flashlight. So they can take a closer look at the car and what might be inside they're going around the car shining light in the windows and. Nothing really jumps out at them until someone catches a flash of reflection on the rear window and sitting there are Pamelas glasses right away. This is troubling because her friends know pamelas vision isn't great without her glasses she wouldn't just leave them I mean she was always wearing that. So they know now that they had to call panel is family and tell them what they found. Pamelas Dad Charles, and her younger sister Sheila get to the parking lot as quickly as they can with the spare keys to the car heart pounding Sheila helps her dad's search inside of Pamelas car looking for any clue of where she might be in the first thing that they spot is the last thing they want to see they find pamelas purse according to crystal bound volumes piece in the springfield new son it had been completely emptied out keys wallet everything it becomes obvious early on it there's nothing else inside the car that's going to actually lead them to Pamela or tell them where she may have gone but before they give up on the car entirely. Heads back to check one more area the car that they haven't looked at yet the trump. He puts the key in the lock takes a deep breath, and as soon as he pops the trunk and sees what's inside Charles. Just screams because inside the trunk is his daughter's lifeless body. Now pamelas sister Sheila is next to her dad's seeing this too, and she wants more than anything to look away but. Can't through her whore she sees Pamelas hands have been tied behind her back. Her face is all cut up. There's a ligature around her neck and there's a piece white tape over her mouth. Pamela Dad manages to pull himself together long enough to call the issue campus police who according to the Tara Tribune call the city police in right away as soon as they arrive, the investigation kicks into high gear when they first see Pamela. They think that she may have been beaten or there was some kind of severe struggle because of those scratch marks and cuts all over her face. It's also clear to them from the onset that whoever killed Pamela used the theory items from the decorating box that she had brought out to her car to bind and gag her. So go. It didn't tell them much about their killer. It did kind of tell them that he didn't come. Prepared with his own items, he used what was already around the only other real piece of evidence found in or around the car itself were a few partial fingerprints that they collected and sent off for testing. Pamelas body is then taken off by the corner for an autopsy and what they learn at the actual autopsy kind of changes, some of their assumptions. So the autopsy shows that all of those cuts and scratches on her face. Weren't made from like fingernails and a struggle. They were actually made by the tail lights from inside her trump like the actual nuts and bolts that hold them in place and the corner thought that those injuries were most likely caused by being kind of jostled against those sharp pieces. So do we know if those cuts happened before or after she died? So based on the evidence it looks like she went into the trunk after she died. But here's the thing I didn't see anything about Pamelas body being transported in her car or what kind of assumptions police made about how exactly be scratches got there I don't know if she got them as she was being placed in the trunk or if she was placed there and the assumption is he drove around a lot and it was the movement that actually caused those. We don't know that for sure ultimately pamelas cause of. Death was determined to be strangulation from a thin white clothesline type rope that was still around her neck when her body was found and it was the same type of rope that the killer had used to tie up her hands as well. No she did have some scratches and bruises elsewhere on her body in addition to the marks on her face showing that their assumption was kind of right at the beginning there had been a struggle. With her attacker interestingly, the corner actually puts her time of death kind of at a specific moment. He thinks it happened around midnight on Friday night, and since Pam was last seen by her sorority sisters around eleven that gives police a pretty Niro timeframe to focus their investigation. So did the corner find any evidence of sexual assault? The coroner actually said, no, there wasn't sexual assault, but I did read in the Indy Star that there. was like some sticks and some other nature debris between Pamelas pants and her pantyhose. So police think that the killer must have taken her into a wooded area at some point and at the very least at least pulled down her pants, which kind of makes it seem to me at least like the killer plan to sexually assault Pamela and and maybe even started but he was maybe they're spooked or interrupted or ran a time or something. Now according to the Tara Tribune's coverage on September eighteenth local police send Pamelas close off to Indianapolis to be analyzed at the Indiana state police lab since this is way before DNA. The crime lab. Is probably just looking for trace fibres hair anything unusual that might lead them to Pamelas killer that same day when Pamelas clothes are on their way to Indianapolis Tara Hope Police get there first potential lead. They find out that someone reported a break in at a building near the parking lot where Pamelas car and Pamelas body were found and they're wondering if maybe this break in might have something to do with panel could somehow be connected to painless murder I thought you said that the killer likely took her into like a wooded area. What does this have to do with it? They actually don't know right. But at this point, the investigation is just super broad there literally looking into kind of. Every call every complaint from around campus for the entire weekend looking for anything else that stands out as extraordinary that might have been loosely connected to Pamelas murder basically anything to point them in a direction of suspect. But ultimately, what they end up finding is that the break in ends up being a dead end and it turned out to just be some kids looking for a place to party and other than that initial little bit of a lead there's really nothing no witness reports no complaints nothing connected to Pamela in the really don't know where to go. But while they're not having a ton of luck in Tara coat, they do have a little bit better luck with the Indiana? State Police Latte. SORTA technicians at the lab find a strange stain on Pamelas Blouse. What do you mean by strange? Well, they don't know what it is at the time, but they think it might be seeming however in nineteen seventy, two police don't have the technology to even confirm that it is that if they could they don't have the technology to prove who it belonged to but what they do have is. The foresight to preserve it and the rest pamelas clothing to the crime lab. Find anything else honestly that's pretty much it. At this point, it feels like police are hitting a brick wall they have talked to dozens of people and Tara. Hope to guys who knew Pamela guys who on campus that night according to the Springfield News Sun at least a handful of them even take polygraph tests but. They couldn't lead police anywhere and there's really nothing out there to suggest how many people actually took it or how many people even passed or failed desperate to keep some momentum in the investigation and to reassure the public like, Hey, we got this police take to the papers, but there isn't a whole lot. They can say they don't know who killed Pamela. No one is in custody and they. Don't have any real suspects and witnesses and very little physical evidence. It's hard for law enforcement even know where to start to figure out what and who they're looking for. It's kind of a bit like trying to find a needle in a haystack at this point and police were just at a loss but then just four days after Pamelas body was found police get a call that changes everything. This episode was made possible by Caserta by Lutron. Cossiga is the smart light switch that I never knew I needed but now I can't live without. Here's something I didn't know I thought you had to have special dimmer bulbs to get dimmed lighting. You just have to have the right switch and you might be like man like vulgar switch. What's the difference? It's a huge difference because think about all the places in your house where one switch controls multiple bulbs doing by three four, maybe more light bulbs or one dimmer switch, and you want to know my favorite part I feel like I'm in that like Old Disney movies smart, house, which is like, are you guys with me? That's a callback, but you can actually use your voice assist on the lights to change them or to turn them off or on your hands or full or if you're just a little bit lazy like me so get smart lighting the Smart Way with casino by. SMART. Switches learn more about Caserta at Lutron dot com slash crime junkie. That's Lutron. Dot Com slash crime junkie. The call comes in from the Indiana state police who tell officers and Tara. Hope that they're actually investigating another woman's murder from just a month prior one that they think could be linked to Pamelas. This victims name is Vicki Lynn Harrell and she was killed just a little more than a month before Pamela and Light Pamela Vicky was last seen in public at the Kmart store where she worked but this was not in Tara coach. She was actually in Bloomington. Bloomington is about an hour and a half like southeast ish of Terror Hotel, and it's another Indian college town for listeners outside of Indiana Bloomington is. Home to Indiana. University and the university itself really is the heart of the city was Vicky a student. So she wasn't at least not that I could find and I have to say there just isn't a ton out there about bickies personal life and not a ton of coverage on her case. Really. So it's hard to say a lot about her before her death. What we do know though is that she Was Twenty. Five years old. So a bit older than Pamela and we know that she had been divorced and it's interesting and a little disgusting off pudding that the media coverage on her case back in seventy two made very sure to point out that she was divorced and also how she liked to bars and listen to rock music and the way they did this especially when you compare it to the coverage. Of Pamela you can see they're almost making it seem like what happened to Vicky was her own fault like a divorced woman out on the town. Would you expect kind of thing right like a total assassination of her character? Yeah and you know as I was trying to find out more about her I did find that she may have also been a single mom. So one of the articles I found in the Tara Tribune called her quote, an unwed mother but that detail doesn't appear everywhere and there's just so little information about Vicky in general that I don I truly just don't know what's real and what's not but I do know how differently they were talked about. So on. Saturday August. Twelfth Nineteen, seventy-two Vicki headed from her apartment to her job at the local Kmart according to the Indianapolis. Star her room waited for. Her to come home at her normal time. But she just never showed up some light was fading and it was pouring down rain outside and with still no sign of Vicky Jeremy started to worry she called around a few places looking for her thinking. Maybe Vicki had gone over to a friend's house to wait out the rain before heading home or maybe she decided to meet up with someone for a drink or. Something, but no one had seen or heard from Vicky. So later, that night her roommate called the police and reported her missing but the weekend came and went with no sign of her and then on Monday the fourteenth, some highway workers were out on a country road near Spencer Indian, which is about a half hour from Bloomington win they spot a young woman's naked body laying face down in a ditch surrounded. By water they call in police right away and when officers arrived, they quickly realize just how disturbing this crime scene really was while the women's cause of debt wasn't overtly obvious. There was no sign of a struggle, no murder weapon or anything near her body. But when they moved her body, they were shocked to find something carved into her chest carved into the front of this woman's body were the initials K. and. Now police take the victim back to Bloomington for an autopsy and it was here that they finally identified her as Vicky linhares based on with found the crime scene or. What they didn't find like clothing or signs of a struggle police figured that was probably a secondary crime scene where they found her that Vicky was probably killed somewhere else and then just dumped at that site. But just like Pamela Vicky had died after being strangled with a rope but unlike Pamela Vicki's body showed clear signs of sexual assault according to cover it in the Lafayette Journal and Courier Okay but back to these letters on the chest like what does Cayenne stand for girl I wish high new police couldn't find any significance to the letters and it's not that they thought the letters. Were irrelevant it just that nothing really fit or made sense. Now for a moment police are thinking this feels a little bit ritualistic, not like satanic but almost like with Syria coach, how they have this pattern there's this secondary site, the carvings in her chest, the sexual assault and they're thinking maybe this is what's happening here. Maybe a serial killer on our hands and this is an Indiana state police like once they learn about Pamela reach out to tear hope and say, Hey, like we just had this happen in a college town you have kind of similar case in yours maybe they're connected. I mean you have to make a contact like that but? I guess I'm having trouble connecting them like the scene seemingly different. The actual acts like one has a body carving one doesn't one was sexually assaulted. One was in. Yeah. I mean again I think you have to cases where There's just like no idea what could have happened there at least enough similarities that they're kind of wondering I mean obviously, they recognize the differences but I think they were wondering if maybe pamelas killer ran out of time before he could finish his whole plan because again I mean he had pulled her pants there was some intent there I mean, maybe he got interrupted who knows but that would explain why their bodies were found in such different ways so Law Enforcement in both Owen and Monroe counties kind of come together to investigate Vicki and Pamelas debts together to try and figure this thing out. Now you would think because this was such a brutal crime. It would have gotten a lot of media attention but that'll be wrong. Instead kind of the opposite happens like yet Vicki's case got some press in the first few days after her body was discovered but then it was kind of like her murder just. Got Shrugged off not by the police but by the public whereas they covered pamelas murder extensively because Pamela, she was the all American. College Girl Bride Bright Future and when her body was discovered one month and one town away because she was getting so much attention at kind of renewed interest in Vicki's case just a little bit because of the potential connection. But aside from that initial like burst a couple of articles maybe they're connected, there was really just. Nothing else it was like no one seemed to care that Vicki had lived or that she had died such a brutal death and actually the apathy got so bad in her case that by early October nineteen seventy, two visits, you know after two months of investigating her murder the Indiana state police detective who was working with law enforcement from Owen. Roe counties actually went on record with our Stevens in the Tarot Tribune said, and this is a direct quote. I've never seen a case marked by less sympathy for murder victim than this. What end quote so I know you mentioned that Vicky was divorced and may have had a child? I. Really Wonder if the stigma of that time had anything to do with. Like why? Being, a divorced woman especially that young and a quote unwed mother who maybe wasn't sitting at home and dreaming of a husband. It kind of feels like that's why people in that Arrow just couldn't be bothered to care. Yeah. I mean that's kind of exactly what the media coverage reflects is that kind of stigma. And like I said when I was doing this research for both of these stories I mean it was really a stark contrast in how the papers talked about Vicky compared to Pamela because it was literally like Pamela loves Jesus Vicki. Loved to Party and it's just Really, sad to see because he's always contrast it against each other even though they were potentially connected. So with no clues, no clothes, no murder weapons no witnesses in Vicki's case there just wasn't anything for law enforcement to really go on when it came to solving her murder, and though they look closely at both cases, the basically end up finding that there really wasn't anything to connect Vicki to. Pamela. So without that connection and the attention that came with it law enforcement kind of ended their joint efforts in the cases got worked separately. So while while Pam's was. Still getting picked up by the media Vicki's case started to fade away in the public's eye, and though police had done something like thirty polygraph tests, they cleared more than twenty people through interrogation. None of those people were able to give any hints about the weirdest and most twisted part of this whole crime. Those mysterious initials carved into his chest and then by October nineteen, seventy, two, I read in the Terre Haute Tribune that police were saying they weren't even one hundred percent sure anymore that it was even k. an end on her chest at all wait what will. After months of searching, they couldn't find any link between Vicky and anything or one with Cayenne initials. So they started wondering if maybe it wasn't a K. and after all maybe they were reading it wrong like from what I've read I guess depending on how you Orient the markings vertically horizontally. Maybe they could mean something totally different though no one gives us specific example of like what like you know when we we talked about the update in the Gilgo beach they released that belt that you know one way look he's actually about to ask is it is it one of those things where like if it's upside down, it looks like this or if it's Right side up. It looks like this. I can't even tell you that much because I don't even know what something different could be I went all over trying to find pictures or re-creations because I can't let this go but there's nothing out there. That gives more information like some articles describe it as looking like it was scratched on other say was carved some say it was on her upper stomach others describe it on her lower chest like there's so many discrepancies like. that. So maybe it's a K. N. or as an but just like the act of carving into someone like that feels way more distinctive than even the letters themselves like that seems so significant, it has to be a huge clue woman. It is a clue definitely, but just not enough of a clue to move the investigation along. So a year after Vicki's death even with no concrete leads detectives were still working the case I mean they still wanted justice for Vicki so. They started like kind of rethinking this. She's not connected to Pam but they do you think that she still could be a victim of serial killer. So here's the interesting thing according to the Indianapolis. Star in something that they put out in nineteen seventy-three, there were several murders between nineteen sixty-nine and nineteen seventy-one that were eerily similar according to this article. These victims were all women all from college towns, all located within forty miles of interstate seventy and get this all with initials carved into their chest that seems like a lot with a very distinct similarity worthy initials all Cayenne or possibly even similar to k n if that makes sense. So. Not. All keihin apparently they were different initials but listen this is literally all I know. I wish I could tell you more about these women or who they were when they were found where they were found how they would found. I have so many questions myself but there isn't. Anything out there like literally nothing I did crazy Internet deep dives looking for other cases from each year and in the specific states that were mentioned and I can't find anything, and again in article they give a sixty nine to seventy one they even give a state land and Pennsylvania and I thought that that would help narrow down like again you know girl found with carving in her. Chest College, it seems like so much information but every time I got nothing. So if any of our listeners out, there are from those areas and know of any cases way back. Then that match let us know because this is something that's literally keeping me up at night. What I can tell you is that as far as I know none of those murders were solved and neither was Vicki's. By November of Nineteen, seventy, two, any trail pointing to Vicki's killer was ice cold but Pamelas case was about to get. Red, hot. Today's episode was possible with Third Love folks. Is there anything worse than ill-fitting Broth? 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Go to third love dot com slash crime donkey right now to find your perfect fitting Bra and get fifteen percent off your first purchase. That's their love dot com slash crime Janke for fifteen percent off today. In November of Nineteen, seventy, two, two months after Pamelas murder two women to Indiana state. University students report being abducted and sexually assaulted by a stranger on. Friday. November tenth Tara Hope Police and issue security officers arrest a man named Robert Wayne Austin for both crimes according to the Ho Tribune B.'s assaults happened within just two blocks of where Pamelas body was found back in September now, police won't say at the time if they think Roberts connected to Pamelas. But that Same Tribune article reported that the police took him to. India for a polygraph. Arrested I mean I feel like this guy is you know kidnapping women assaulting them. In the same area of the same campus, you have to explore that. Oh, I totally agree. I. Mean Robert. was literally attacking these two women one right after the other either Monday Tuesday or Tuesday Wednesday depending on which source you read but either way to kidnappings and sexual assaults on two consecutive days. Roberts thing that he would snatch women take them into the woods assault then and then let them go and this brings me back to all of this stuff that. was found between Pam's pants and her pantyhose police thought that she had been taken into the woods right? So Robert is arrested and charged with kidnapping and sexual assault related to those two victims that he attacked a November and according to Chris Essex Article. For W. T. H. I., News Robert Readily admits to the rapes and abductions. But when they asked him point blank about painless murder, which they do many times. He's adamant that he had nothing to do with it. But police don't believe this for a second and neither does the media partly because I mean, what are the odds of having two different predators operating in exact same small area in such a short period of time and in almost a similar way at this point, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that he's responsible for Pamela Death to everyone in the media and the public. But try as they might investigators aren't actually able to connect him to the crime scene or Pamela with any kind. Of physical evidence but that doesn't stop the media and the public from wild speculation. It gets so loud and out of hand by the time, Robert gets to trial in early nineteen seventy-three his lawyer asked the judge to set some rules that the media members covering case can't say that Roberts, even a suspect in Pamelas murder because it could taint the jury pool against him in hurt his chances of getting a fair and impartial trial has he officially been named a suspect in her murder? Though no not officially but we've seen this before where police are so sure they have their guy even if there's no way to actually prove that it's a hundred percent true. That kind of continues to get reported as fact. So when he was first charged, Robert Actually pled not guilty by reason of insanity. But by the time he goes to trial he pulls back on the insanity piece and just pleads not guilty. The jury doesn't buy it and in the end they find him guilty. On all charges on April Ninth Nine thousand nine hundred, seventy three, he sentenced to a life term in prison. So now the police investigation into Pamelas murderer goes into this odd state of limbo like they have this gut feeling that Roberts, the one who killed her, but they don't have the evidence to actually charge him with murder and I guess, as long as he's sitting in jail, people are just feeling like the dangerous man is off the street and there's nothing necessarily to worry about. So Wall Robert Sits in jail Pamelas case sits on a cold-case shelf all through the seventies the eighties even through the ninety s nothing moves on her case at all. Until. Two thousand one almost thirty years after her murder, the Tara Hope Police decided to give Pamelas another look forensic technology in the early two thousands I mean is light years ahead of what they had back in seventy two and DNA in particular his huge. The investigator working the case decided to see if there's anything they have in evidence that might provide them with enough DNA test anything that they can compare specifically to Robert Wayne Austin to see once and for all if they're gut was right and he was there guy this whole time, please tell me they come back to the stain. Yes. So according to the Springfield New Sun investigators go back to the Shirt Pamela was wearing that one with a small. Stain that they couldn't really place before and sure enough there is enough genetic material in that stain to test for DNA. But that's not all police are also able to grab a fingerprint off a Pamelas glasses using technology that wasn't around in the seventies. So armed with this new. DNA profile for comparison police look. Robert. Up and find that he's actually out on parole they track him down. It's not super difficult thankfully, and they get their DNA sample from him. They send it off to the lab. They wait and I mean so much anticipation here right? Because he's their guy that's a thirty year old murder salt in a high profile case off their books. But if he's not I, mean they're back to square one but thirty years later. When the results come back, they are not the slam dunk that police had been hoping for robber was not their guy after all they're able to confirm that the DA pamelas blouse did come from a man, but it just wasn't Robert and the fingerprint isn't his either. So back to square one, they run the DNA through Kotas and get nothing they were on the fingerprint and the two parcels pulled from her car through Apis, which is basically the fingerprint version of Codex hoping that they'll find an answer there. But once again, they come up empty and once again Pamelas case goes back on the shelf. Seven long years pass and in two thousand eight, a man named Sean Keane Becomes Chief of detectives for the Tara. Hope Police and one of the first things he does is start passing out coal cases to his team since it doesn't seem fair to pass them out to others and not take for himself. Sean decides to take on Pamelas case because it is the oldest in their files according to the Tribune Star Sean spends hours reviewing the case files in the office during his shift and even after hours at home, and he's tracking down more than fifty men who were interviewed in connection with Pamelas murder back in nineteen seventy two, which is a hard job. I. Mean not only having to find these people, which is probably a monumental undertaking all these years later, but also having to try and get those people to remember something about a crime that happened at this point almost forty years ago. Right so desperate for a break, Sean decides to try some out of the box method to heat this case up according to the Springfield new son one of the things Sean does is he takes pamelas picture along with a little blurb on the case and his contact information and puts all of that on decks of cards that go out to prisoners all throughout Indiana on the off chance that may be an inmate with information would see. It and come forward and as creative as that was I mean, I, know that's been done continuously since then unfortunately nothing comes of it no one comes forward. So he looks back to DNA the last time Pamelas murder case was investigated closely was two, thousand one and Sean knows how far DNA technology has come and even just those few years by two thousand, eight touch DNA is starting to emerge where DNA can be tested from skin cells that the killer leaves behind something that they touched something like a murder weapon or the rope that police found rump Pamelas neck and listen like they already have a profile of the killer, but if there's DNA on that piece. Of. Rope. That doesn't match what's on Pam's Blouse. Suddenly, Sean would be looking for more than one suspect like this is something that could change the course of the investigation. SO WITH NOTHING TO LOSE SEAN decides to give it a try and sure enough his hunch was spot on there is some DNA rope, but it's just a partial profile. So it's another dead end. Yeah. Kind because really what this partial profile tells us is it's not a hundred percent match to the steam, but it also can't be ruled out as not a match. So it doesn't really help in one way or another we're kind of like you said dead and right back to where we started. After about a year on Pamelas case Sean. Starts to again try and think outside of the box and he's starting to hear about how in other states they're using familial testing to get to unknown killers, and this isn't the genealogy testing that we've been talking so much about in the last couple of years this one is using genealogy but at the time you just test against other family members who were already in cody. So he thinks like, oh, this could be great. Maybe the DNA samples will match someone in like a distant family member who's in prison, and then that will lead us to our perpetrator. This could be the ticket, but the thing was in two thousand nine when this is going on when he's having this idea, it's actually illegal to do that in the end, you can't use a family member WHO's had. To submit DNA because they've committed a crime to get to a another family member who hasn't already. So schon is back at square one again and it starting to feel like this early work on this investigation kind of like a roller coaster army really up down he's two steps forward one step back but Shawn knows the answer to this puzzle is somewhere in the case and he refuses to give a Year after year after year until eight years later in two, thousand seventeen, the investigation gets a boost yet another advance Indiana technology. This is when genetic pheno typing release starts. Now, we talked about this before how incredible pheno typing can be, and it basically just uses a DNA sample to predict what a person with this DNA might look like i. mean what color hair will is we're color skin tone I mean this is a big level up from your basic composite sketch. Yeah. According to w teach our news SEAN GETS A phenotype composite. Made from the Indiana State Police lab based on the DNA from Pamelas file. So what he learns is the person that they're looking for has dark hair dark eyes and like a medium skinned home until finally he's like okay I can actually narrow down my search and he starts going through the file and only focusing on people who matched the description he starts pulling arrest records from the late sixties early seventies searching for suspects who had been arrested for violent sexual crimes that search yielded one hundred and six potential suspects one, hundred and six. This creates almost a full year of work for Sean looking for suspects. phenotype composite but he ends up having no luck and he's starting to feel like he's running out of options and he's wondering if maybe this case. Isn't solvable after all because every year that passes is another year further from anyone who might have memories pamelas murder, but it's also another year of advances in DNA technology but here's the thing even as that potential like keeps growing. So much of the DNA sample from Hams Blouse has been used for that tests that the state police lab actually did and the lab warned Sean like listen. You might only have one usable piece of DNA left like one more chance to use this precious clue to try and figure out who killed Pamela. So knowing that he has one last chance this might be it might be his only way to nail this guy responsible down for murder Sean things long and hard about what to do next and where to play his very last card. 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In two, thousand eighteen, Sean decides to send the DNA sample from Pamelas blouse out of state to this lab down in Virginia called Paraben Nanno labs and we've talked about paramount on the show of the Yes we love at paramount they are a DNA technology company and they're huge in the field of forensic genealogy and their best known for helping identify the Golden State Killer California for cracking the equal Tinsley case right here in Indiana I mean, they have been involved in tons and tons of cases and one of the things in two thousand eighteen that Paraben was doing genealogy was still just brand new to them but they were deep into this process called snapshot, which takes pheno typing. Up a couple of notches basically. So this seems really promising, but Sean knows that he has to be so careful here the milem family has waited so long for answers and this responsibility is weighing heavy on him again, I mean, this could be his last chance. So at first, he wants to split the difference. He tried just sending on half of the sample that. He had left just in case it doesn't work like maybe you'll have a backup, but paraben comes back in and tells him. It's not enough like if you want to do this, we need the whole sample. Sean agonizes over what to do according to Fox, twenty three news he turns it over and over and over in his head, and then he decides to go for. It this is his hail Mary Pass. He sends the full sample the very last bit of DNA to pair bond in praise that he's made the right call one parent gets it. They do two things. First, they create a phenotype composite for Sean their best guess what the suspect is, GonNa look like what is DNA, profile is and here's the totally crazy part their phenotype. Snapshot Comes Back Completely Different From the one Sean Got Indiana state police lab like how different so if you remember the guy that Shawn's been looking for for the last year has brown hair Brown eyes and medium skin tone right holly. Hayes. Reported for the Indianapolis Star that the pair bond composite had blond hair blue green eyes and light skin sean is just totally stunned. Again he's been going through all of the case files by hand pulling arrest records by hand ruling out people who didn't fit this original phenotype only to learn that basically, he can throw away all the work he's done for the last here. How did they get it? So wrong I don't know. So from what I can tell, it seems like the Indiana state police lab used a smaller sample than the one sean sent a pair bond and it seems like maybe a bigger sample lead to better results. But truthfully, I'm a little fuzzy on the details more truthfully on a little concerned because I think it. Proves something that we've kind of suggested before I. There is still so much about DNA and especially these new technologies that we still don't fully understand but that new composite is actually only part of what Paraben does. So they actually run DNA through the Gen match system, which is a database that we've talked about before. So they into doesn't eighteen making these snapshots was pretty well no but this is just when they were really starting to get into that genealogy familial matching and incredibly when they do that when they put it into the system and do some tracking, they get a hit the don't find their suspect. But they do find a distant relative of their suspect again, not a slam dunk, but it's enough to get the ball rolling again Inchon's investigation according to Paraben this instant relative a woman is actually still in Indiana living in the town of Washington about an hour due south of Tara hold, and this is finally the lead Shawn's been waiting for genealogists get to work plotting out this woman's family tree honing in on the men in the family who'd be the right age range the lived in the area, and they start collecting more DNA samples and getting more and more detailed with his whole huge family line as they go. Until two thousand and nineteen when they get down to just one name. Jeffrey Lynn Hand. Okay who is this guy? So Jeffrey was a traveling deliveryman with roots in Indiana who working out of Chicago at the time he basically drove all around Indiana and Illinois delivering records to music stores. He would have been twenty three in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, two when Pamela died. So really nothing about him would have stuck out on a college campus. He would've looked possibly just like any other stewed, right but he wasn't a student what he was sean found out was a violent sexual offender and murderer, and you want to know what else he was, what a dead ringer for the pair bond composite. Right, down heart in his hair, you're gonNA, send you a picture of Jeffrey and a picture of the composite. Oh my gosh. Yeah. They're so similar like the face shapes and knows like the eye shape and the eyebrows it's really really wild will according to Fox fifty, nine news Jeffrey had a violent criminal record for kidnapping and murder I. Mean this guy is a prime example why we have this don't hitchhike role as a crime junkie wife rule when police look more closely at him and his background, they learned that he had a history with the legal system which on paper started in nineteen seventy-three less than a year after Pamelas. That year he picked up Carol and Jeff Thomas. This young newlywed couple that were hitchhiking near Tara. Hope they were trying to get back home to Evansville which is about two hours away and Jeffrey offered them a right now they're driving along in Jeffrey said Hey I'm GonNa make a quick stop over at my sister's house to get some cash except he actually Took them to his house out in the country, pulled a gun on them, and then demanded five hundred dollars before tying them up in a grain silo Jeffrey ended up leaving with the husband and while they were gone, Carol was able to make a run for it. When police finally caught up to Jeffrey, he led them straight to jeff the husband's dead body. Jeffrey was arrested and tried for murder, but ended up in the Indiana state reformatory after being found not guilty. By reason of insanity he spent three years there before his lawyer got him out in Nineteen, seventy, six on a technicality I. Guess the lawyer claimed Jeffrey should have been found not guilty for kidnapping to even though according to the Tribune Star Jeffrey. was never actually tried for. The kidnapping I'm sorry what I guess there's some jurisdictional issues that really got in the way here I. Think it was because he kidnapped Jeff Carroll in one county then committed the murder in another because as I was researching I found some legal back and forth about okay you know where exactly do we prosecute him for this? Do we combine the charges? Do we split them do we? Do is fist in a second trial. Do even do a second trial if he's not fit like I mean there was all of this stuff eventually, I think it kind of all contributed to him getting out of custody just three years after such a violent crime. So whereas Jeff now, Jeffrey has actually been dead since nineteen seventy he was shot by police in Kokomo after he tried to. Kidnap. Yet another woman and he left behind a wife and two young sons they actually give Sean samples of their DNA to do a reverse paternity test of sorts and when they do those tests, the results come back positive ninety nine point nine percent probability that yes their father Jeffrey Lynn hand was the person who murdered Pamela all those years ago in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, two. pamelas older sister Charlene thought that she would die before she ever learned who killed her sister it took forty six years, seven months and twenty days. But pamelas family finally had the answers that they'd weeded a lifetime four. Is there any chance that Jeffrey could've been Vicki's murderers well so I haven't seen anything that connects Jeffrey and Vicky or even mentioned like, Hey, there might be a connection because truthfully no one has written about Vicky or spoke in her name in a long time I mean. Really she's been forgotten all over again the way she was back in Nineteen, seventy two but I truly believe if Pamela and her family can get justice. So many years later, there is still hope for Vicki. If you have any information that could help lead to solving her case, please call the Indiana state police at one, eight, hundred, four, two, three, one, two, eight, six. If you want to see the pictures or source material for this episode, you can find all that information on our website Crime Junkie podcast, Dot Com, and be sure to follow us on. INSTAGRAM got crime junkie podcast will be back next week with a special episode but stick around for a bit of the month. Kranji is an audio chuck production. So what do you think? Chuck, D approve. Okay actually I have made an official decision regarding the proper of the month segments. You're not GonNa make me cry anymore. Well, here's the thing I feel like we need a tier scale like okay. Put these segments together I'm gonNA give it a tier scale rating from one to ten to prepare I like that. You're going to be fine at one. It's literally literally puppies and rainbows. Okay. At a ten you will be growing so much that your tears will have shorted out your computer we. May Have killed you sorrow and now crime junkies no more so Based on that rating system, I'm going to try really really hard to stay under an eight. Consistently okay but what's today? So today I have and we'll probably have to revisit this at the end just to see you on the same page wavelength but I'm giving it a six point five. Maybe seven but I personally think it ends closer to six. Okay. All right let's hear it. So yes, I'm telling you this and so all of our listeners can also be prepared just a little bit. I know last month we had a surprise s in the middle of the segment which. Couldn't have been accounted for even if I had it but I just wanted to give you guys a heads up we're looking at six and a half I. Think. So today I want to tell you about our listeners Sydney and how she came to know her best friend. The truly incredible Kelly Sydney was in college which I feel like is how so many of these elements start? The worst time to get a dog, but also has worked out so well for so many people right but Sydney wasn't doing great. She had opted to get her degree in three years instead of four which I don't think I know any overachievers, but it certainly sounds when to be like when to me on my goodness and the pressure was really. Taking toll on her mental health and she just kind of floundering and really struggling to feel like her life had purpose or like she even had anything to live for. So she decided that she needed something to distract her from where she was mentally something to take care of and give her life some sort of meeting. So she went out and got. A bunch of. Plants. I've totally been there. Her outcome was just as successful as mine. Every single plant suffered a tragic ruling. R.I.P plan. I'm all about fake news. I cannot keep one allowed exactly and Sydney figured like what was the next logical step dog and obviously like we all do she started poking around the local shelter website and thugging her boyfriend about all the cute dogs that were available but she was never really able to take the leap like in the back of reminds us like what if you're already not doing? What if the responsibility of a dog was going to be too much and make her feel even worse if she was not only feeling herself but she was also feeling. Help us dog that you kind of forced into the situation but one day they were driving around town together and her boyfriend basically was tired of hearing about all these dogs. Like. Greece breaks turns around and takes Sydney to the shelter. You're kidding no, I love this so much and they go down you know all aisles and looking at all these. adorable. And obviously like Sydney like us loves all of them but. She wasn't really connecting with them and her boyfriend would even suggest like a look at this one I think this will be really good fit and she was never really like this is the one until she looked into the eyes of this beautiful Mutt. Yes the mud was sick and underweight and look sad but she was steering in the Sydney Soul. WHO's the congress is Sydney had ever seen and it was at that moment she knew her life was about. To completely change and that sad mutt which Sydney didn't really define her breeds or like what she thinks she is I based on the pictures thinks he's probably like an American bulldog mix or what? What embark calls supermarket like when you do your testing. Definitely Superman like she's she's gorgeous I'm GonNa, send you pictures here in a little bit and she was then known as Michelle but from that day forward was Sydney's best friend Kelly Kelly and five years after that day. Kelly Sydney have had a wild ride together the day after Sydney graduated from college. She and Kelly drove for eight days straight world on Kansas to seward Alaska because my Gosh Sydney was like I need something completely different than the life I've always known. Let's go to Alaska and holy cow. She's so brave I love her. Like. I am fine young I'm so I'm so down I will go to Alaska with you Sydney and Kelly and Sydney learned to hike and camp and fish together, and this is like so cute to me that Sydney brought this up. But she was like we saw our first wail and see salons otters together and it's so real. That's how you talk about a relationship with significant other right like. Monster. or I I just so cute and Kelly was the proudest dog in all of Alaska. She would always hold her head up high when they'd walk down the street and tourists which are kind of Weird Alaska I guess I would be weird in Alaska to just like wanting to soak it all in but tourists would ask to pet her and take pictures with her and. Kelly was just like Frene with pride and Kelly would even like wait dutifully outside like the grocery store or the post office will Sydney was inside and new said a lot of times when she came back, kids would be like hugging Kelly and hanging all over her and Clayton was on the sidewalk and Sydney made a point to say like Kelly sounds like the perfect dog. She also has angered a few Moose and bear in her day. More than once has almost gotten them both like attacked killed. Yeah. That sounds like Charlie to me and I'm so get this. So. Over three years. Alaska Sydney actually started getting sick and was. Day I thought they drove up there for a trip. They moved their own. No they were therefore like a long time like she was lear's Literally Union Alaska over for over three years Lao I'm back here with you. So Sydney started getting sick and was actually diagnosed with early stages of cancer and with a diagnosis you know she kinda wanted to be. Closer to home for her treatment. So she packed up and Kelly once again hopped in the front seat and took the eighth day road trip back to Kansas with her and Sydney said Kelly was so amazing through it all let her cry in her after every doctor's appointment and just Kelly was really a huge part of Sydney's support system through all of this. And back in January Sydney. Actually got the all clear from cancer. SIPPY. And as amazing as that news wise sitting also considered to be the hardest day of her life because that was the day that it was also discovered that Kelly had cancer frigging. And at that point in time the Vet Steve Kelly two months to live. But Sydney said, they didn't know her Kelly and if we aren't at a seven yet, this might be where we hid it. I was I wanted to. Eight or directly from my conversation with Sydney now, who wants and he said. Are you going be okay? No, your system is whack. Go on. Okay so Sydney said quote you see. I know that she took my cancer from me Oh my God. The type of thing Mike Kelly Allie. Do She's pulled me out of the deepest depressions of my life. She pulled me up ten thousand foot mountains in this now because she knew to get outside. She's warning of coyotes and Moose and bear and made sure I never left the house alone. She is the protector I didn't know I need it, and now I get to be hers. Her last act is to save me from something I. Didn't even know I had lurking within me. And she's doing a great job. Okay that's like our at least our seven I thought. You said it later at the end. Well, that's the thing. Sydney said that Kelly is doing amazing to this day I just a couple of days ago. She does so well, that vets are like in our in amazed with how well she's. Living with diagnosis and living with this treatment and. She's defying all odds Sydney said you wouldn't even be able to tell she was sick. That's how. SPRY and healthy any. Well, she's doing and now that Sydney is working from home recently, she is thrilled that she gets a front row seat to see just how strong and resilient Kelly is and Sydney said Kelly never been one to give up easily and is. Just, a living beautiful reminder of that every single day and you know what? Talk. What like a good blessing I know like there has been so much. Sadness and change and grief that I think has come along with covert I. Mean we've we've lost people people have lost jobs. It has it has been hard on everyone, but I do think it's important to always try and find like the bright spot of where you are because you can't change where you are. Right like we're all going to be in this situation no matter what like looking at their situation I think this can apply to all of us is like how great that? You know even though Kelly's during great with her diagnosis. The even dogs dogs have no diagnosis like we only get them for so much time exactly and how great that that she can not be at work you know what I mean like she gets to spend so much more equality time. Yes. Like bonding and reigniting their like incredibly special bond like I truly believe their bond is incredible just like secure and Charlie and just like so many other listeners and their dogs so. I think you hey, my rating system at been rated worse but again I feel like we need like you said like look at the bright side look at how this story is still unfolding for Kellyanne Sydney. And I think that brings it down to the six point five. Wrong and all all taint count of of our blessings and so even if even if everything feels a little terrible if the one bright light in your life is that you get to be at home with your best friend for however long this is going to be. that. That's truly a gift because we don't have forever with them. And as always, we love featuring shelters and rescues at the segments and this one that I'm going to today was actually sent to us as a recommendation completely randomly from a listener. It's called Shadows Fund and they're located in Lompoc California and they focus on senior dog. So obviously. Totally in it but they also have programs for adoption and fostering even fostering litters of puppies, and one of their biggest focuses is rescuing what can serve vulnerable or at risk dogs in shelters that have histories of bleak outcomes breathe pity's which obviously you know have my heart I did a little bit of reading on them. They seem to be an awesome organization. With a ton of ways to support and engage in all of their different programs that aren't just even just adopting and fostering. So there are located out of where they're located out of LOMPOC California. Okay, and willing to shadows fund on our website as always, and obviously we're going to include some pictures of the strongest pop in Kansas if you ask me Kelly.
Brittany Runs A Marathon, Brain Raftery, 1999 Films
"In in Brittany runs a marathon is a film not so much about how others see you but how you view yourself it's a movie about body shape and weight and the notions created by people who mostly judge us by how we look that's from Bobby Bloom Journal and Courier of Lafayette Indiana. One of the fellows reviewing this week Britney runs a marathon marathon. We'll talk all about it. Thank you so much for checking in as always appreciate you guys giving us some law. Please do go to apple and not only subscribe unsubscribe subscribe again. Tell some other people subscribe spread the word here as much as you can't. Please get subscriptions up. It's now fall movie season. Let's go ahead and do this. Here's a couple of reviews here from apple podcast. This is from Jay goods twenty seven amazing missy old crew though it's okay rec- t I don't really like movies that much but I love Adnan Indian five stars yeah go ahead. I rank movies by the way too for me police but you can rank yours at five stars now. Here's one from drake. Walker can't get enough five stars adding Joran absolute riot there. Tasteful commentary gives me a reason to afford to Wednesday mornings each week. I'll admit I wrote this to hopefully hear you read it next week blatantly obvious so while I have your attention could you please as tell me each of your favorite movies under Kofsky and Bella Tar and why hopeless not too much to ask him if drake on obscure here Tarkovsky I will go with the sacrifice just because I think it's a very humanist fable and remember seeing years ago. unappreciated Tarkovsky is very deliberate. Style Solaris obviously very famously clooney remade age so that's when the more people would know I can't speak to Bela Tarr. I do not know the filmography Bela Tarr jody. Do you WanNa talk about either. Cops Your Tar Turkovsky Kia bullying seen the movie The killers in college about ten years ago so I will have to make that my number one and then I'm yeah the other one ED. No I do not inhabits speaking points for that. We're going to Bass Guitar. We dig it a previous comment here about I'd like to review past movies. People have missed so I do want to talk about which I watched the first time in a long time. We came about thirty seven years ago I mean this is one thousand nine hundred to the movie was released and I watched it again and I found it thoroughly thoroughly enjoyable for those who are unaware of what it is. It's Dustin Hoffman dressing up as a woman okay. That's the entire movie it's two hours Othman dressed up as a woman. Did you want the actual story yeah yeah he plays an actor named Michael cannot get cast in a rule. He's increasingly frustrated upset with his agent played brilliantly by Sydney Pollack who directed the film and it's also very good could actor and they've got a sequence back and forth where pollock is admonishing him for the we played it tomato and your tomato. What kind of direction did you want opposite with what he told called me and it's amazing because it works on multiple levels doesn't hop and has a reputation for being very difficult actor for a guy who's not combative but can be temperamental until in the service of the stories nothing difficult to be difficult but he's difficult in that he wants to get right and he's very stubborn and hard headed and people love him because he's such a great actors? I wouldn't put it in the movie but he's not easy on directors and in fact it's Meta commentary because not only is hopping playing an actor who can be difficult but apparently he was difficult on this sort of tootsie and Sydney Pollack pollock who is sparring with playing his agent was actually the director of the film and he spoke with the fact. Yes we had a lot of arguments about it and it was challenging but Hoffman comes from a good place and ultimately we're making the best movie possible so you don't mind as much as you may mind it from other actors so you've got that whole sequence there one of the funniest lines as efforts when hockey first dresses up as a woman and he fools Sydney Pollack into thinking that you know he's somebody else and then when he goes in there he drops his boise goes to his regular voice. He's like it's me it's me it's Michael J. favorite favorite client and runaway Paulikas Olicas Michael. I beg you to get some therapy. Such funny lied at such a good script Larry. Gelbart steersman is less than two sinophile. Steve is a good friend. I'm from my days. ESPN he always listens in the other day. When I said I watched footsie said Gilbert the guy you're also wrote mash how talented see the funniest line? I think people have seen definitely and the reason why I watched them. We watched the CNN at the movies and so when I saw the eighty sequences you know I haven't seen Tutsi in forever so go revisit that happened to be on and the line is where hop and I going in for the audition dressed up as daddy and the casting director says. Can you pull back a little to make maker look a little more attractive as a camera guy says. How do you feel about Cleveland so it's funny lie? There's so many great one liners and the sequence were hop and finally reveals himself that he's a man dressed up as a woman that whole sequence is amazing because it actually services the story and it's also a great scene like he's giving us monologue as southern character and eventually drops his voice to a man as he rips the wig off and it's perfect directed by Pollack. He cuts all these days I think every PASA GAL directors reaction Dabney Coleman's. I knew it that's why she wasn't into me. Bill Murray who wraps up with the best friend who says that is one nutty hospital if you haven't seen Tutsi before like I said top and dressing up as a woman and it's really funny and it really plays Walter Day Teri Garr just language and academy award for supporting actress Dabney Coleman minority mentioned. There's only one real notable weakness that is the musical montage and the music in general is a horrific. This is nine hundred eighty two pop music at its worst. I mean it is so painful. There's one sequence where Hoffman Goes Far Jessica lying. It is just atrocious the sympathizers and the Museo my God. What did you get reedited does is he? Let's take the music out. It's not GonNa work for the story or put some other generic movie music in there I would have preferred that as far as newer releases. Oh boy also saw Jim Carey's as I love you Phillip Morris it never seen the movie on this Jim Carey kicking. I never saw me myself and Irene until about a month ago and that was funnier than expected. I avoided it because I've heard mixed reviews off offer from Kerry and the fairly brothers together but actually thought it was pretty funny. Maybe I'm just in Jim Carey mode and I just missed the fact all those broad comedies that he used to make in the nineties but actually thought there was some inspired moments and especially when he turns into Hank who's schizophrenic who gets all in your in his digging goth and I thought he'd Cameroon Zellwegger wasn't surprised in the fact those to an item especially with a carry looks at her on screen. You could tell this is clearly smitten. I love the sons in the movie the other really funny as well so already enjoyed me myself and Irene eighteen years years after it was released I watched ace Ventura which spoke about recently in the pod and got a lot of comments on twitter as well so the Nice. Let Me Watch. I love you. Phillip Morris had never seen it's Jim. I'm Carrie playing a gay conman who falls in love with you and McGregor so this is the tenth anniversary of that film had never seen us. Check it out and I didn't thank you. I didn't think it added up to the sum of its parts did think it was very well acted by Carey and by McGregor there. Here's The synopsis if you like Stephen Russell becomes a cop gets married a family after a terrible car accident evaluate shoot himself it comes out of the closet moves to Florida finances luxurious lifestyle bad checks and credit cards imprisoned Stephen Meets Philip A mild-mannered mannered inmate who becomes the love of his life determined to build a beautiful life with his lover embarks on another crime spree again if it's notable if you like those actors and I think I would definitely recommend it. certainly was in your face with the gay content especially at that time you go okay it was definitely forward thinking and explicit remember Jim Carey Zometa Letterman Letterman kind of system to them like you know how hard was it. The Planet Curie was so annoyed with Dave questions. What do you mean how hard is it to play complaint Geico like what what do you mean? I have to go back and look at the interview or whatever it was like. CRINGE-WORTHY I mean Kerry very would not let letterman off the hook for asking question what you thought was completely inappropriate ridiculous but as far as self if you've never seen it before. If you're a fan of Jim Carey I I would recommend it. It's got elements of comments tragic at times probably give it three maple leafs. I didn't think it was great but I didn't enjoy it as it completes my carry filmography next to pick it up to watch Mr Mr poppers penguins which was critically reviled film. I think at twenty eleven it was like all right broad comedies and make no it doesn't have it takes it's not to it's not exactly inspired comedy of Liar Liar and speaking of comedies I also watch Dave Chapelle sticks and stones. My cousin Salim recommended it to me. He's a loyal listener cinemas right five the recommends it to me. I'll watch them and they'll okay on Chapelle all right. I wasn't a devoted fan of the show I didn't lose ten pounds and all of a sudden. They announced that networks are going to have his the pack but I do think he's funny. Whenever I see good decent actor too I liked him in a star is born but I think sticks and stones was all right? I wasn't crazy about my brother liked it a lot too but either was all right I mean a I did like the fact tackling present day issues the funniest part of it was the whole reaction to the Jussie smollet case which I thought was very funny but I thought the LGBT jokes rather than be funny. We're just kind of mean spirited and kind of tread the same path you did before he got in trouble. The previous now Netflix stamp that was released offers comments about transsexuals. stuff on abortion was a little bit cutting edge in the Michael Jackson. Material Filthy didn't find it funny. I was just like he's talking with the documentary which you've you've seen it as revolting and then Chapelle talk about it was it wasn't I I was really sick and by actually watching the documentary don't need him now talking about it as well so I wasn't crazy about it sticks and stones a couple of Maple leafs unless you're Chapelle Fan. I don't think it's one of the best stand ups I've seen in a while. The movie that I wanted to talk about those Britney runs a marathon that movie came out in limited release in August twenty third and it's now opening wide and I hope it's a success and I hope that people see because it's been a tough summer for indie movie releases in the case of Brittany runs marathon. This is a crowd pleaser which was released at Sundance and was snatched up for fourteen million dollars. I think there's GonNa be a tough amount of money to recoup the box offices these days but the story is quite straightforward. It's an inspirational comedy. The twenty something woman who turns your life around which is is a hard partying lifestyle and take up running New York City empowerment fable. It's based on the experiences of a party hearty friend of writer director actor Paul Downes Collazo and the actual character pops up under the health under the end credits and should say Britney is held really in check by Jillian bail. She's a comic comic actress best known for the Comedy Central Series workaholics for stealing a good portion of twenty two jump street from Jonah Hill and channing tatum Tiber. WHO's one of my favorite film crazy patterns found the passes a film on credit for the Boston Globe? He writes in his review Bell's character here is best positioned as a toned-down indie movie version of an Amy Schumer heroin a generous body coupled with ungenerous self-esteem office team that is dead ended her life in lousy choices and allows your men. It doesn't help that Brittany's nearing thirty and her roommate Gretchen Alice Lee doing what she can. The shallow rule is derail things social media influencer whose instagram fewer make Gwyneth paltrow turn green and New York City gym membership proving too much for her budget. Britney sets a very tentative the foot on the sidewalk outside our apartment door just one block she mutters Q. The Vertigo Camera Effects. How good is Tiber loves loves vertigo more than I do? He had the biggest vertigo fancy includes Vertigo and a review of printing your runs a marathon checkout ties full review as far as Meyer view the movie listen. I thought it was very good. I thought it was funny. Jillian Bell I thought was very good in the role. I mean listen to item. There's so many women so many men out there who struggle with weight and know how frustrating it is the way that people judge them and the she's going to visit the doctor and she's using sarcasm sarcasm to try to shield the fact that this doctor said listen. You're not living a healthy lifestyle five seven order but it is one hundred eighty seven pounds and you've got to lose some weight here because you you know your liver's high blood pressure etc and anybody who knows who's tried to lose weight of every single person listen. This podcast tried to lose weight. It's the first step that's the hardest and so it's commendable commendable that Brittany elise laces on the shoes and goes from there and like I said the stormy seem predictable. What is unpredictable is the cast? She's got the gay best friend. She's got an Asian Asian best friend who ends up being the shrew. Who's being a real painter thorn? She's got a divorce say French ends up falling in love with an Indian guy. That storyline comes to know where I was like okay okay. I didn't think it was going in that direction. I'm happy to do that so good to see a brown man getting in the film and it's not sorry because I thought his performance is really good. He's it's actor. I've never heard before going to find his name. In a second as I keep talking but the meantime Brittany sisters played by Kate Arrington the brother-in-laws little ray how're and then journey and is the star casting slack or who is house sitting along with Britney and he's the Indian guy what Karsh embiid car is his name and he's really funny and they've got some real chemistry together and of course there's some detours along the way and the whole story tells you Brittany runs a marathon but what's this all about. It's about self discovery about overcoming self loathing. It's about being happy with who you are are and I think it's important with the movie that you don't necessarily want to say Oh if you're fat. You're unhappy if you lose weight. You're all good living a healthier lifestyle but there's a really good team of supporting in character who's overweight and I really liked her. Contribution the film because I think it's important to say that this isn't a movie saying hey fat people lose weight. It's just be happy with yourself and try to live as healthy as you can and just makes steps to do whatever you need to but just because you lose the weight doesn't mean that all of a sudden you're happy with your life and there's this one really cutting scene with the Lee and Jillian bell which is going to tell her listen fat girls. Don't we don't throw away your clothes okay. You'RE GONNA get fat again and also all those images and insecurities ought to stay with you you so I think it's definitely a timely film. I'm sure a lot of people can appreciate what Collazo's going for here and like a Jillian Bell. WHO's supporting acts getting a lead role? It's it's nice to see her getting some love here. I get the film three Maple leafs. Are there is a detour in the third act. I didn't think it was necessary but I guess that's kind of the storyline you kind of looking for some surprises along the way but Brittany he runs a marathon. I hope that people will check it out. It's a crowd pleaser and I'm giving it. Three police know people see or wherever the indy theaters can be found job. You heard much about Brittany runs marathons thoughts tootsie Dave Chapelle whatever you like the floor is yours really really excited to see Brittany runs marathon. I've always liked Julian Bell. She I think has always been a scene stealer dealer and a lot of project she's done. She's in a later season of eastbound and down tuber. She's really funny and so I'm really excited that she's finally stepping out and taking the lead role in a movie so it seems very funny. Bruni runs a marathon. Yeah definitely check out the film right now and we'll talk our main Carlton we can get Collazo Jillian Ballard somebody from film here to talk about the movie because like I said it's timely and I think people can appreciate whether you're running a five K or the New York City Marathon. It is something certainly to be appreciated and something that is very very very difficult to do all right now time for some entertainment news billy crystal he's right Orca Tiffany haddish. That's right astute films announcing Golden Globe nominated Commie legible team up with girls girl's trip breakout starring comedian for a new feature titled Here Today Crystal Screenplay for the film with Palestinian it live Allen's weeble who I love because he used to work on it's Garry Shannon's show and this is based on the ladder twenty seven short story the prize with Haddish for lead role is as crystals eight time directing his third on a feature film he previously previously held the movies like Mr Saturday night with real labor love for crystal and the romantic comedy forget Paris as an actor he recently appeared the Tribeca Film Festival standout standing up falling down last month on some drama to the kitchen a release date for here today yet to be announced production slated to begin this October New York City. I've always liked billy crystal lot joe happy to see him working with Tiffany haddish. It seems to be the rather interesting pairing. Wouldn't you say yes definitely but my hope is that after this movie maybe they host host the Oscars together. I would really really cosign on that. Do that's a great call you know for all of us hosts out there. You can't just keep canceling hosts. I heard rich Eisen talking about the SL media podcast hosts are important dammit. We can't do this a so. The EMMYS got rid of the host. The officers got rid of the host on host are invaluable also shortly after Sony the Open Quentin Tarantino's once upon a time in Hollywood in theaters nationwide the summer rumors circling the writer director is thinking about putting back in the footage he removed the films the actual cut and releasing an extended version of Hollywood as Nepal's miniseries Tarantino did just that with the hateful eight early this year it turns out the rumors true at least according to Brad Pitt the actor confirming turn team had discussed. That's the idea pitts says it's a pretty arousing idea as India previously reported Tarantino's first assembly cut up Hollywood ramp four hours and twenty minutes the film's theatrical we'll cut came and it's just over two hours and forty minutes Pitt told the New York Times too excited by extended once upon a time in Hollywood release while Pitt did not confirm it the minister as it would be for Netflix turns turns you know go through the idea it appears likely given Tarantino's release of hateful eight pitch set. It's almost the best of both worlds you have the cinema experience that exists but you can actually put more content content in the series formats four to that also pierce Brosnan endorsing a female bond. He's saved the world four times James Bond now he'd said about a female bond. Yes I think we watched the guys do over the last forty years ago. Guys put a woman up there. I think it would be exhilarating. It would be exciting however he expresses doubt change. We'll play onscreen producers. I don't think that's going to happen with the Broccolis. I don't think that's going to happen under their watch but he subodh will have to change the times as well because of the seductive atmosphere around him without question yes the metoo movement has been relevant and significant and well needed in our society so we'll have to address that bond Kansas go around there gallivanting with all these women and lastly Eddie Murphy going into stand up tour in two thousand twenty. Oh Yeah next year and twenty twenty. I'm going to go on the road and do some stand up. He said that recent episode of the Net flicks podcast present company with Krista Smith did not not reveal further details but he's hosting SNL December twenty first first time he's hosted in thirty five years. He's also starring in the upcoming Netflix. BIO-PIC DOLEMITE is my name as a comedian and self-styled godfather of rap Rudy Ray Moore who became a sensation. Thanks to his one thousand nine hundred seventies blaxploitation character dolemite film follows Moore's mission to make dolemite movie unlike anything that came before that one enough Murphy's reuniting with his Dolemite is my name cry Br for coming to America which is slated for release in December two thousand nine hundred ninety s a new coming out this year it'd be an SNL December twenty first. He's doing stand up next year and coming to America to next year by the way Murphy was negotiations with Net flicks for upwards of seventy million dollars to do a series of stand up specials stream of previously made similarly have to deal with comedians including Dave Chapelle and Chris Rock specials does and Murphy's previous projects still in the highest grossing comedy films of All Time Joe. This is like J D Salinger decided to write another book. It's Eddie Murphy filing understand. It's been thirty five five years for God's sake since we've seen him. Out of the states can't wait for this. Oh me too I can't I mean some of its standard from the eightieth still prolific and I just wondered if he's going to bring the red jumpsuit back find out. We'll find out but hopefully at some point. I'm sure there will be many references to delirious Robert. You're right the red jumpsuit comes back that would definitely be awesome. See All right. I am so pumped. Talk for a special. Guest is one of the best books I've read all year our talk the author right now seriously. I know all of your dedicated listeners this podcast you know my thanks Brett Baker. GP Murrieta Travis Bradshaw Mike Rob Lumley. I guess I'm GonNa tell you guys. Here's a really simple. Oh I dea and it's from Mac Weldon founded Mac Walden because it's better whenever you're wearing right now seriously. I'm talking to you guys right now Brett. JP Travis Mike Lamb. I'm telling you right now macworld. 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It's great so honestly they've got on a mission statement which also makes sense because they got a great selection design and premium fabrics as well so honestly right now for twenty percent off your first order visit Mac Weldon Alden Dot com and enter Promo Code sinophile seriously MAC WELDON DOT com. Mac K. W. E. L. Dot com enter the Promo Code Sinophile C. I any P. H. I l. e. seriously right now. For All the things that I mentioned underwear socks shorts you name it you get twenty percents off your first order visit Mac Walden Dot com enter for the Promo Code Sinophile a real pleasure bringing Brian Rockaway. He's the author throw by favorite book of the year. It's called best movie ever how nine hundred ninety nine blew up the big screen to give some perspective here. I was born in seventy eight so the my favorite movies always of my lifetime where those movies the Nineties Ages Twelve to twenty two so this takes you back to twenty one years old finishing up college and it's that time where you know it really is in your formative years in many ways. It's shaping experiences. I always felt like those movies really special and now that I've read Brian Book. I have confirmation that movie. Your was indeed remarkable year Brian. Thanks for coming Edson file today. Oh thanks for having me I appreciate it. I want to start with Magnolia which is one of my favorite movies and I loved what you wrote. In the book about. It's the chapter after tennis called the Goddamn regret which of course Jason Robards that great monologue he's given PT Anderson's my favorite filmmakers. I think he's Uber talented and I loved reading leading the Baxter. You told about where he was in his life with this book because Boogie nights is this enormous success and you've got Francis Ford Coppola going Optima restaurant. Tell me listen. What do I do next makes you swing for the fences okay? You're never gonna get this chance again. So whatever you WanNa do this is it after this things are going to change again and he always friends with Tom Cruise now and cruise it invited him to see eyes wide shut and like it sounds incredible the the life that this guy was on at the time. PT Anderson said relatively young man Dan. He's made this huge success. Although boogie nights wasn't exactly winning Oscars but within the movie circles it's made a real hit and then talk about the way that PT Anderson you know kind of put the story together and the fact that he wrote about. Tom Cruise's Baxter without even realizing what Tom was going through with his own father. Yeah I mean it's it's a big swing movie in a Lotta ways and he was certainly in this very rare position that I don't know if any young filmmaker would get now where you know he'd made one movie hard eight which was kind kind of barely released. He made boogie nights which was a movie everyone you know we all love and saw the and got them Oscar nominations that was certainly not a smash hit but that movie was so exciting fighting that you know he gets people like Warren Beatty thinking about the dinner and that's why Francis Ford Coppola kind of approaches them and tells them this big shot kid and he he took it I mean he he was. This was his first really big budget film and he got Tom Cruise who was the biggest star in the world. At that point. He got a you know a budget around forty forty five million in dollars. He got he got final cut. which is you know those are just three huge gets for someone his age and he decided to tell the story of all these interlocking lives in Los Angeles and there's a there's a little bit of through line of cancer and a family problems but he writes this pretty remarkable character Tom Cruise who's this very ski? TV seeming pickup artist Guru who is sort of pulled out of his world to go visit with his father on on his father's deathbed and he's very oh you know he's been estranged from years and Baltimore centers and Kinda wrote this with cruise in mind but I don't think he even realized that point that you know crews had his own some problems with his own father and then Tom Cruise had kind of severed relations with his father had only seen him in when his father had cancer towards the end so it's a pretty remarkable scene being for those who've made it through Magnolia which was a long movie and a and a tough one for some people I mean watching cruise onscreen kind of reconcile with his character's father is a remarkably actively moving moment and I think one of the reasons kind of grounded and cruises own life away yeah. I don't really care for cruise like on a personal level like I don't. I don't like scientology and all the stuff he stands up for but I admit when I remove that as film critic in a film fan I seem particularly remarkable the way that he just shows vulnerability l. e. stripped away and all that emotion comes cascading over the entire cast is unreal. I mean you got Philip. Seymour Hoffman who I adore playing a very kind empathetic aid need to Jason Robards is dying man. You've got obviously Philip Acre Hall is so good as a talk show hosts. You've got John C Reilly get more water. I've Julianne Moore like at that point. He felt like all right. There's this real stock company. PT Anderson People Louise Gutmann there in boogie nights gonNA work with the rest of his life but he just keeps taking chances you mentioned William. It's macy's character here's WanNa Anna read from your book specifically and that's The seamer everyone sings a line from ab lands Ab man's wise up like the plastic bags in American beauty which by the way a hater Brian. Thank God you mentioned that scene because that's the worst scenes of any movie in nineteen ninety nine. I like American beauty. I think it's a really good movie. I don't think it should invest picture because of all these other movies that came up gotta hit that sequence anyways like the plastic packs American beauty the wise up sequence would split critics moviegoer some Sun as an indulgence others as a moment of uneasy harmony among discombobulated discombobulated souls that the sing along was nowhere near as divisive was what followed and that was of course the massive army of frogs tumbling from the sky. I remember talking on college just on the phone. All who is essentially Tommy. There was no way that my dad was going to make it Anderson said and one of the first things that popped in my mind was you're telling me frogs are falling from The Sky hearing that your dad has been a dis bizarre frogs are falling from the sky and one of my favorite film critics own Gleiberman from E W who's now at variety said he found that sequence the directors grandiosity taking over elbowing everything else aside ride. I think it's a great sequence because the fact it's got so much to it but I can imagine as you said re watching it now. We're talking to people about it. Some just go. Hey what the hell was with the frogs. I have no idea what the going on yeah I never. I didn't mind at the time and I I actually I love to sing along seen and you know when I watched that movie now parts of it it does feel a little long and I think. PT Anderson himself said that he would cut maybe twenty twenty five minutes out of it which which maybe wouldn't be the worst idea but you know in that case. The grandiosity is is what makes Magnolia so fascinating. I mean you think think about it in two thousand nineteen if a studio says hey young filmmaker. Do you want to make your own movie. That's not going to say Yeah I have a huge movie star and a lot of money and make the movie about death and frogs falling from the sky that never gonna be explained. I mean those kind of films and those kind of stories. Just don't get told nowadays so I think twenty years after Magnolia came out. It seems all the more remarkable even if even if it doesn't quite gel in some ways it's still a pretty amazing movie to watch and it's very hypnotic. If it comes on on you kind of can't stop watching it. That's a great description of it by the Philip Baker Hall said I'll vouch for the frogs. I don't want to give it away. I want people read the books or read the Book and he tells his story specifically quickly of when Germany postwar Germany. He's got his own Fox which is amazing when you actually read that story I also have the first ten minutes movie to your point about the hypnotic I pull of it like that that whole nation there ricky Jay this is not just one of those things this is not by chance and then boom you go to that song was loneliest number Miami man. I'm completely with you that that we'll be hooked sure right out of the gate. I really really startling which brings you to being John. Malkovich God I love that movie and I love that you mentioned of all the movies that you went through that year. EPA Perspective folks if you want to go look them up seriously the matrix the six cents election Rushmore Magnolia. There's so many great comes out that year but as you mentioned being John Malkovich was the best reviewed film of that year and that's all that really critics jumped on and just give us the backstory per charlie COPP and right in this idea and Spike Jones and to me. It's always marvelous reading your book. The fact that the title was being John Malkovich. This was not hey. Let's just find some avant-garde Tronoh. They specifically wanted Malkovich. It had to be Malkovich. L. Quits because as you perfectly wrote his famous enough that you'd nobody's not that famous it's like okay. That's the guy from the line of fire dangerous liaisons but they literally wrote a title with him in it and the fact they actually got him to do it and the film was great as it was is nothing short of a miracle yeah had to be Malkovich and I think certain point they were shopping around the studios and there was one famous the story where an executive a new line which was the studio that made Magnolia was basically like hey. Why can't this be called being Tom Cruise which is kind of shows that this is this is a very tough movie to sell but if you look at those two filmmakers Charlie Kaufman who wrote the screenplay and Spike Jones directed it and this was Spike Jones's first movie they're they're kind of the perfect people to make that movie and the only ones who really could if they were both complete in a way sort of complete outsiders Charlie Kaufman has had written being John Malkovich the screenplay play starting in the mid ninety s when he was a very frustrated sitcom writer and TV writer who could not hold he could not hide his disdain for the succumb medium very well and you know Spike Jones had spent the nineties making these kind of remarkable using videos I mean he was sort of the only name brand I mean he and hype Williams to the only really sort of name-brand brand music video directors where if MTV says here's the new spike Jones video I mean in college we would take those on? VHS and try to collect them all because they were you know the the sweater song song by Weezer Buddy Holly there was so inventive so you have these guys who were completely not part of the studio system at all and they sort of sort overstay their claim and said no this movie WanNa make and we WANNA make it specifically with John. Malkovich movie works as as being Tom Cruise it has to be eight is actor. Who you kind of think you know but who you can possibly do you can also buy just in this weird fantasy version where people are taking a portal into the back of was that and and having his body brief moments of time and you know that was as you said it was the best movie that year that an election I think I mean I think election top the premier critics poll and I think being John Malkovich top the village voice critics poll so those are the two most beloved movies that year but Malkovich was just has that kind of movie that you you sort of had to see it as soon as it opened because people were talking about it and it made no sense if someone described that still you absolutely had to sort of see it for yourself great great mentioned here you put in your book page to forty two about Cusak who is upset after conor SICOM agent told me he had to give me something to read? That wasn't crap in a whisper voice. Kusak swept told them you've you've got to read being John Malkovich. He sound like it was some kind of a drug deal. The actor recalled so I read it and thought the only way this will ever get made of some Kid Max his dad's credit card and sh- van and Cusak also told his agency that if by chance movie did get made and he wasn't he would hire new representatives. How good is that? It's great and you know He. He's right. Though you know five years earlier in if you've made in the early nineties mid nineties you probably would have had to shoot it with abandon the maxed out credit card but one of the things are so fast thing about ninety nine is that you had had all these years of buildup in the independent scene where you had all these new filmmakers breaking out you know whether it was like Allison Anders or Tarantino broken out by Kevin Commits so the the big studios were willing to look at a script like being John Malkovich and instead of just throwing it in the trash. They were like wait a minute. This might be what people want nowadays we can actually they make big we can make movies like this with bigger budgets and well-known stars and you didn't have to shoot them out of the back of a van you could really I mean that was being John. Malkovich was a with for for the most part a studio movie was small studio subset of you know that a lot of money went into that it was it was a very big deal came out speaking of a very big deal. We'll just ask sixty minutes where they thought the insider the fact that Michael Man was willing to take on some big time names including Mike Wallace that movies remarkable. I remember watching I think in all my God it's so dense it is so well researched and is so taught and it's so much tension like it's perfectly Michelman captors it and of course those performances by Russell Crowe Pacino and I love that seem you know where Pitino says Ronin heroes man like he's just he's to the fact that it's such a good scene with those two guys is play. Tell me a little bit about the insider because again what I found amazing reading. Your book was the fact that you'll expensive. That movie was and they knew this is not a commercial movie. This is not going to make hundred million dollars yet. Get there is a studio willing to make pay fifty million dollars. Seeing this is an important to make 'em we'll do put critics and we'll do it for hopefully some Oscars but if not what the Hell Michael Man we trust you. Go ahead. Make the movie you WanNa to make that's amazing Studio Disney. It was which is crazy. It's you know of all the studios that you look back. Now of kind of what Disney put out twenty years ago I mean they they they did the insider and they did the David Lynch movie straight story which I don't think those movies would even be allowed to. I don't think you could drive those scripts on the Disney lot at this point being thrown out but yeah I mean it was it was a movie that had no franchise possibilities had no sequel possibilities and it was going to be an R. rated movie about a guy who tries to take down the tobacco industry and and the you know the frustrated sixty minutes producer helps them a lot of movies just two guys talking I mean it's a lot of scenes just Russell Crowe and Al Pacino Chino these two kind of very different men circling each other and it's it's really really tense. it is a very interesting kind of cat and mouse thriller were were. We're frankly very little really truly happened. I mean there's definitely a lot of watt too but a lot of best movie I mean I think the best thing that movie is the suspense of Al Pacino waiting to get a facts from someone you know just sort of what we know. What will what will this source? Tell them that it's remarkably well made movie and the fact that people sometimes forget that the insider came ninety nine when they're listening all these movies I think testament to just how many remarkable films came out that you kind of you can't really contain that list top ten and I'm GonNa Accuse Your Bryant of cheating on one of these because Rushmore I always think of ninety eight and I think he came out in December of ninety eight and your including ninety nine because I guess that was more the wide releases that you're thinking on Rushmore Watch more yeah rushmore had a had a award season run in a couple of coast to coast sorry I think on the coast and then a couple of cities in late ninety eight but a touchstone and released in February of ninety nine and that's when the cast actually did press for it and everything so it's it's a little bit of a cheat I mean you know the virgin suicides title also premiered a Canon Nine but didn't come out with two thousand but you know they all sort of. They also feel of the same year. Even you're not shooting the calendar. I was GONNA say and I'LL L. Let it slide because I love that movie so much and it's coming of age movie and I had no idea I had no idea the friction between Murray and Jason Schwartzman if you can indulge your audience what you disclosing the book yeah I mean. I don't think they got along. I I think they had you know. Apparently they and they both what's so funny is they both talked about this Schwartzman. Mary both talked about this at length. When the movie came out it was actually part of the press tour was talking about this remarkably uncomfortable sort of first real rehearsal rehearsal they'd had with Wes Anderson and hotel in Texas and they did not get along and you know it's also those I have a feeling that you know slightly Cranky Bill Bill Murray at that point is life meeting with Whiteley? You know probably a little too enthusiastic and sarcastic. He needs Jason Schwartzman. It was probably not an easy an easy mix it first but you know they. They kinda quickly got over that but I also think it's kind of remarkable that there's also a little bit of tension in the movie between them. I mean it's a very warm movie ultimately but they have to be adversaries and there's something very fun about. The idea of this young is young Kinda Bratty kid trying trying to take down as the older guy he sees kind of you know as as a weird sort of father figure when there was something probably similar to that happening in real life onset but you know those two are Let's do a really really good onscreen together and I think you know that was probably for. Wes Anderson directed a lot of difficult actors. Since then. I have a feeling that was probably the movie that really helped him understand actress because you can make those two performances worked so well out of those two very different performers you. Can you really know how to talk to actors yeah page to your book. You talk the night before filling the spent that uncomfortable our rehearsing when the hour is up Murray said I went and got really drunk in Texas hotel bar. It was not a good week for me not not long after the hotel Humphry ESCO remembered bill took us off to a respiratory ate chicken fried steak after that everything was fine so that of course is the recipe for all sorts things the sixth sense offense is an incredible movie because it's like how in the world of this thing work how did and this is the best point your book makes Brian is that in today's age that secret not have been held the people would have spoiled it on twitter instagram and said he's actually did he sees dead. People Blah Blah Blah but for some reason. I don't know why this is what people saw the I didn't see initially in August remember it came out. I didn't see it initially and I remember nobody spoke for me like I saw it on DVD. If you went sentiment Oh my God. I can't believe it what I want you to retail. If you remember it is a story about Bruce and m night Shamlan a critical sequence. I'll jog your memory page. One seventy one year when Shamlan asked the actor to just one his line readings he demurred. I think we got it will told them Shamlan steel themselves. I'm like this is it. This is the moment I leaned in whispered. Here's what I was thinking. Blah Blah Blah he looks at me and before he has a chance to what I thought I roll sound here we go and after this was completed. Shallow is walking to his car when he got word that will want to meet him. What happened then yeah I mean in for people who who are sort of forget Bruce's late nineties was not in a great place career wise for a while and was kind of reputation as being very very cranky frankie onset and John had only done one very small movie that head or sorry a pair of very small movies that had barely been seen he had the biggest actor actor he worked with that point was Rosie O'Donnell so he has to get someone like willows who is not only kind of a force of nature on con- camera but also behind the scene so he gets called back to the trail gets caught wills his trailer and Shamlan as he told me was was terrified that he you know he had blown it basically and it turns out that Willis who had been corrected directors that much of that point was actually complimentary and said this actually feels really good? This feels like I'm I haven't felt this way since pulp fiction which I think kind of cemented their relationship and you know I think Shamlan is also someone I think is underrated as a actress director. If you watch we watch the six cents Willis Louis is really good and I I actually would say it's probably the best thing he's done decides Pulp Fiction Navy and I think he and Chaumont and whatever reason in the movies they did subsequently they they have a very good rapport and but I can't imagine being young basically first time studio filmmaker WHO's getting called call to the principal's office and the principal Bruce Willis that would be absolutely terrified fight club and my roommate Jon. Allan God's Love Tony How great that movie was and I must admit I I'd like to the time I wasn't crazy about it. I feel like I have to watch it again now after reading what you wrote about it because it felt like it was ahead of its time it's still gets reference all the time by people oh I love the fact that at one point fincher gave Edward Norton some direction as a little less jerry a little more dean knew exactly meant there was reference and here's the best part uh well the funniest parts of your entire book page two or three to the World Premiere Fight Cup was held in early September Italy's prestigious Venice Film Festival. It was the first indicator of the not everyone felt Mr tre finches opus especially funny it gets to one lane and scandalous lines. I haven't been F- like that since grade school and the guy running the festival got up and left recalled pit it the only ones laughing you could hear two idiots up in the balcony crackling through the whole thing adds Nordic got booed. It wasn't playing all Brad turns looks at me and says that's the best movie ever going to be and he was so happy. Yeah I mean it was that movie was controversial from pretty much. What's the moment they decided to make it but yeah I mean it's important or it was like which is as you mentioned? Some people don't really love it. It's very controversial. It has a and has a cult following and also who has a following people who think that called following the bedside for society but you know it it was definitely a movie that came out of very troubled time it was supposed to come out it was supposed to come out of the same weekend that summer of Eyes Wide Shut but after the columbine shooting in April nine Fox the studio decided to put some distance between because it's a very you know it's it's it's considered by many kind of dangerous movie. It's asking a lot of big questions about consumerism and corporate were life and all sorts the things that are in some of the answers that it has are are fairly destructive but I always founded. I have to say I found that movie pretty funny when I first saw it except for the last twenty minutes I remember being very floored floored by it but I think what's so funny now is that I don't know if I dunno some the ideas and find cover quite as controversial anymore. I mean the movie ends with you know credit card our company buildings being destroyed so that everyone's credit will will go back to zero and that's that's actually a variation. That's kind of a talking point in the presidential campaign in America could this year so I think some of the radical idea the fight club but now seem a little bit more. I don't WanNa say appropriate but they certainly seem a little more relevant a little more timely to that point when you mentioned that the guys are brainstorming and he said and I love mammoth. They said that they had a long silly dubbed Mamat rant as if to inspire the greatness of David Mamat. It was stuff like you're not the content of your wallet. Some of their nurse session conversations were incorporated along Anti Peptide Tyler gives the narrator early on f. off with your Sopa a units and green striped patterns. I say never be complete. I say stop being perfect. It definitely has a DNA mammoth doesn't it. Oh certainly I mean there's a lot of and and it's it's it's it's also just so wonderful that they can get all those rants in the movie. I mean there was I think you know the the the dialogue in that film is really remarkable. It's based on Chuck Palahniuk Book but You know Jim did a fantastic job adapting it and Andrew Kevin Walker who wrote seventy two and it's a pretty it's a very funny he's very smart screenplay and the movie they were kind of thinking of was the graduate which is another very. It's a very different but also another kind of very radical movie about a young man trying to I forgot his direction in life and like the graduate has a lot of really good one liner very very movie very dark anaylyst. It's got a lot of good lines yeah. I've got to see it again because especially reading your book and I said Okay. Maybe missed the boat on how great this was like. I liked it but I'm with you. I think it's a lot probably funnier than I realized last awesome for you. I've never seen three kings and I've got to see it for reading your book and especially this story about George Clooney and David Russell who courses reputation taste very very very difficult but in March of nineteen ninety eight filming almost completed deep Buenaventura got a call from a producer Arizona set of three kings he goes. We've got a problem George. I'm just trying to pound David and data's choking George. I'm like are you kidding me. The executive nervous about the movie which had gone from sixty shooting days to seventy eight. It was well the few times I was told this is on it doesn't work literally. Clooney and Russell are coming to blows on the set. How crazy is this? Yeah I mean it's I urge you to see three games and you're listening. It's it's pretty wonderful it's it's an absolutely dark funny incredibly repulsive action. It's like an action shouldn't movie comedy Thriller Political Drama War Film which they don't really make any more if they've made it all but it was also a very tough shoe David a russell you know in the late nineties especially nine nine the studios were giving a lot of filmmakers from the indie world. Whether it's David Russell Paul Thomas Anderson they're giving them access to these really big budgets and these big stars and these were big steps up for a lot of these filmmakers and I think David Russell and George Clooney who was at the time absolutely you know a huge movie star and at the end of TV star. I don't think they're working styles. went together pretty well so and it was a very intense shoot a lot of outdoor in the heat in Arizona and it was it's a very tense set the whole time and finally Kinda came to blows and you know it in a way it's almost unfortunate that it happened because when three kings came out the stories as of the fight between Clooney and Russell really kind of overshadowed just how fantastic the movie was but I think it's also sometimes make a movie that has that kind of tension attention you sometimes. The attention actually helps in a way I don't think people are getting the fistfights when they're making movies but I do think that you can see a lot of attention attention behind the scenes play out in that movie in a really remarkable way. I think it's a I think if you see it you'll love it. It's visceral movie. It's it's a lot along the lines of Mash just a very interesting movie that no studio today would make in any way whatsoever this this right here is really fascinating. The actor was commuting back and forth for days. I sometimes leaving the ER set up four thirty. AM flying straight to Arizona for three kings only to find that Russell had rewritten the script the constant dialogue adjustments many sources of tension in between Clooney in the director he was specific but everything down to the movement of a finger said Clooney. David feelings was what am I supposed to do shoot the way I don't like in my thing was what am I supposed to do. I don't know Oh my lines yeah. I don't think they got together very well. I think they have since the Dave Russell me when I remember the book that they have since made up up but I you know I don't I wouldn't expect three king to for for a Lotta reason at last point here and this is a great point. You made Brian because there's a movie lover through and through ago has a podcast called sinophile. Everybody tells you what movies aren't good anymore. Buddy everything good is on TV now and I understand as a golden age of television streaming the quality is never been better etcetera Cetera by love the we ended. You're back because you point out the fact that there's been this feeling before. The people say hey man movies. The magic is because they used to be an instead. You get this incredible edible year like ninety nine and maybe just maybe we can get a resurgence when it comes to films just like we did back twenty years ago I think so and I really hope so I mean I certainly think when I look at those movies and nine nine it's a long list of of really culturally important really dazzling really sort of seminal movies that have hung around for twenty years. I don't know if you've ever had a year that feels quitely quite as a as densely populated that one but look I mean people people have been predicting the end of movies since TV came around they they were predicting it with. VHS came around. It's just this is a very different scenario now where we have franchises and streaming so it does feel a little more perilous maybe they did in the past but you know when I was working on a book you know get out came out and lady bird phantom thread and call you by your name and a lot of there's a lot of movies this year too and I just feel like maybe we don't maybe maybe we only get like ten or twelve really amazing kind of really smart films a year but I'll I'll take twelve. I mean I'm not worry about movies going anywhere I worry about the audience is kind of going somewhere but I certainly do feel that you know we do. I think the big studios need to take a few more chances because as as he everyone saw the summer just pumping pumping out sequels is is not going to work for a lot of these franchises and I think that I think they're slowly starting to realize it. which is what happened late? Nineties studios saw that people weren't quite showing up for for what they were doing. They're doing a lot of TV. Movie had a lot of TV adaptations or doing a lot of sequels. No one asks for and then you get a year like ninety nine you get a fight club where the matrix or or boys don't cry because the city does decide to take some chances yeah other great moves even touch The limy great soderbergh film The Blair Witch Project Egypt is white shut which is Divisive Star Wars episode one which you wrote perfectly. That's the most critically reviled successful movie ever the thing billion dollars people crap on all the time because the jar thanks Yeah Yeah Y'all virgin suicides as well even the teen stuff like American Pie I e Blues Intentions following go and one that I should've should've mentioned closer this actually office space. Could anybody who predicted the space. It'd be one of the greatest comedies of all time yeah no into the time because even some the cast members went to go see on opening opening weekend and there was no one else in the theater at least two to cast members from office base went to two different theaters that weekend and we're pretty much the only ones there it was it was a huge ball it it was just sort of dumped in February but you know back then movie could get the afterlife partly because of cable runs partly because the DVD and also partly because of the Internet you know the Internet has kept Office Space Alive for twenty years now the and you know and I don't think the Matrix or club necessarily needed the Internet but keep them going but those movies are also just they're. They're brought up every day. I mean there's a new there's a new morpheus meam every day. I think the Internet so I think the web has certainly really helped a lot of these movies have a much longer sort sort of cultural shelf life than they might have. you know had they come out ten twenty years earlier. You can follow me on twitter at Brian Raftery B. R. A. N. Raf T. Fiar y once again his fabulous book is called best movie year ever nine thousand nine blew up a big screen phenomena work Brian. Certainly it's a great great book and thank you for reminding joining me of wildlife that you're so much and why my college you so much continued success autocad. Thank you definitely see three king. You'll love it all right lots of the list. Thanks man all right. Take Care Mount Rushmore. Thanks Brian God. He was fantastic talking about and as I said listen right now you're listening going. How could you not talk about the Matrix? A how could you not talk about election. Trust me those movies are definitely worthy of a claim as well. I just talked lose that were to my personal taste. It's why it should not be surprised for the Mount Rushmore Ninety nine. I'M GONNA go with the following Magnolia being John Malkovich rushmore and sixth sense hence I like Brian's point about sham lumping underrated working with actress because if you look now eligible Osmond Toni Collette Willis all fantastic and that movie and he's pretty good not only with the Hitchcock Ian Twists and the look of the picture and the you know the feel of it but also recall those actors as well as my four Joel mortgage stiffer your four which are the ones that really intrigued you from that year oh boy I feel like there's no wrong answers this week and I agree with you being John Malkovich beyond that list fight club to you. That's such a cool movie. It still looks cool holds up. I'm throwing on the Matrix I worry that about three months ago and the CGI the I'd technology that they use in that movie revolutionary really and then I also have the iron giant directed by Brad Bird before ready-to-eat we before the incredible is is really heart warming story about a guy who finds a robot so those are my four. I like your young guy. No kids but I like back. You've got a child's heart here. You're Brad Bird Gun that is you know what I'm going to see. I think iron China's mentioned I think it's only mentioned in passing the book so good for you for giving it. Some acclaim. People need to skiied more. Go where you're watching people. Yeah listen raftery gave more time to talking about. She's all that cruel intentions ten things I hate about you the iron giant so I like the factor willing to die on what it does get mentioned because it's in the chapter seven with stars episode one Phantom Menace and Galaxy Quest. He does actually have a few pages in iron giant so you have been vindicated vindicated in your decision awesome great everyone by the book then the Bata Ebbing and now it's time for the body binge once again. If you're just listening to send a for the first time we always go through the sopranos episodes right now. We're up to season five five episodes. Four five and six this to me is one of the strongest seasons of the Sopranos we focus on episode four all happy families. You've got Asia here blaming. I'm in Carmella for kicking Tony Out. One of my favorite actors shows up. That's right guidance counselor Robert Wexler played by the Great Davis drew there from the book by Matt Zoller Sites and Alan Simple Wall the Sopranos sessions sure there is one of the shows most recognizable guest stars with no real history and mob movies having first one notices preparatory company of India Director John Sales Eight men out before taking memorable roles in more mainstream films like a League of their own sneakers l. a. confidential and good night and good luck which got him an Oscar nomination for playing Edward R Murrow oh I love strong there because he's the love interest now of Carmelo is also helping. Aj and then you've got each gone that's right and it's so good Robert Loggia Asia in the in the show but then he's prematurely gone and what triggers the decision to get rid of features less thefts than Tony Recalling a moment earlier in the episode he told a stupid joke at the executive game and ever. We were laughing except for each wants Tony Can admit that has Carmelo warns adulation deserved that features scowl even in this context just a genuine threat to his reign and he has Christopher set up with a parole violation we did we get denied more losure ABS and Non Violent Checkmate Him also got Frankie Valli showing up little carmine advisor iser rusty millio values the front man for the legendary and mob door ban. The four seasons was a plot point in season four's Christopher as rusty. He's very much presented is the Dick Cheney too little cards Malapropism spouting George W Bush and allied carmine senior pushing toward neither seem prepared for episode five is Orlea favorites. It's called irregular around the margins and it's about a near affair between Tony and Adriana with Chris out scored Tony An aide in a couple of drinks wanted skurdal coke hoc after the crash in an SUV well look in a score cocaine. It doesn't matter they didn't have sex because the mob has its own version of the telephone game expands I want to happen until speculation. Folly Ali choirs a narrative followed by two million made up details Adrian sustaining a severe blow to the head becomes Tony Blow job and on and on to uncle junior's marveling apparently came over the sun visor. This goes back to the fact that soprano is telling Melfi about having sex with Adrian or starting a serious relationship with her would be a Astra for them both ruining relationship heir apparent incursion Carmella to get more brutal divorce settlement and yet we know Tony when he wants he wants he's going to go and get get it and the reason why I love all this episode so much is that not only they have the strong element of comedy but it's a real showcase for not only Michael in Portland is Christopher especially the scene where he's telling them. You know listen. Everyone's talking about everyone's thinking about it doesn't even matter if fooled around with my girlfriend everyone thinks it happened and now you're making me look like a loser and an embarrassment humiliated and eventually it culminates in Christopher grabbing a gun and he goes in the being a couple of funnier feels like nothing to see it other senior meantime Christopher waving a gun around threatening to shoot Tony because he thinks he slept slept with his girlfriend as the guys right irregular around the margins among the sopranos most purely farcical episodes. The episode applies a series core idea recognizable family problems. Tom Mafia level stakes as a rural of gossip innuendo. Let the captain's act like eighth graders passing notes a whole ever was upset legiter room for comedy including the scene gene. We're Carmel Throws the Pizza Tony Bras a piece off the floor followed by Tony Scooping a backup for leaves the tail between his legs after Tony B's quick thinking gets Christopher off the warpath the most pressing issues suddenly being the fact that Chris through food at veto Tony quotes. That's gotta be resolved like I said it's a great episode because it shows that it's all about codes an honor and these guys are like anybody else man. If all of a sudden someone thinks that they're boyfriend or girlfriend cheated on them with the boss they're going after the boss even though Chris realizes if he does anything Tony to kill kill him and he should thanks Debauche Emmy for getting him out of the hot water because he's able to discern the fact that yes nothing happened between the two and the real knockout punch comes actually from Adriana the Anna when she's talking to a friend and says you know Chris was lucky it wasn't him it was him I would have killed him you know even though she sustained horrible accident and the pain and suffering she's as incurred she completely freely admits if the shoe is on the other foot absolutely execute Christopher if he was out at night three. Am with some girl looking score cocaine so it's a good punch at the end we'll more absolute talk about rhythm by Matthew Weiner and directed by Peter Bogdanovich. That's right Ben mink of it's his favorite one of the great director of the seventies he was a recurring Sopranos Elliott. This is actually episode which he directed and it's a good episode. It's about more about within because Mr Regular here is using Carmella at least as much as using him. He's Helping Ages College Grades Walt in addition the bag sleeping her and get this real sense sense of longing in both the fact that Carmella finally likes to talk to somebody because you know he's this really smart guy. He's the diametric opposite of her husband's cultured saw spoken vocal generous of spirit. He loves literature. LX Madame bovery maybe this could be about as different as as anybody could imagine from Tony Soprano leaders on. She's telling father fills. Something in me has been reawakened. You've never happening this man. Just knowing that feeling passion again I don't offer ever go away and later on it's way cooler who breaks it off as he tells you that Oh you stronger me using the only weapon you have and Carmella has that sad realization that whatever I say whatever I do because I was married to Manley Tony my motives will always be called into into question so you've got Carmella sad to sent in her sad plight and also Tony be WHO's trying to go straight but all of a sudden bad lock manny finds a bunch of money and I get sect in the back to being wiseguy Gandhi buys everyone drinks the being gets a new suit and shoes goes ahead blows away the exective game and that's why you realize you know what going straight here. This is not fun work on some massage parlor. You're eventually as a violent explosion against him and his former employers bloodied and it's just a big old mess and Abbas Tony be then goes to Tony Soprano's. I'm ready to go back got a business and I was Tony. Soprano says it's hard doing business with strangers as he's delighted at Tony B is going to go back now into crime syndicate that takes us halfway through season five live of the Sopranos. Thank you so much Brian raftery seriously go by his book best movie. You're ever had one thousand nine hundred nine big-screen. Keep those subscriptions failing police do subscribe. I tell all your friends and go ahead and rate and review on Apple podcasts. It's fall movie season the mets while see you
On the Third Day It Rose Again - Insanity Check #647
"Ooh Man not only McDonald's school more leaped ahead. It's Rainbow Freddy Kruger. Had Spoken Bets Future. Now we back these losers Brayson that like they use the pocket they just listen now you leak in the future. So who's the suit up his. It was it a fan hole was it stayed and house. I bet you he say he was not a nigger. Plus Biggie. Smalls was just minding his business. Show smoking in the mall together. Dropped dropped me big east and they know how did they world needs say man. I wish that we have a former four is blue ripples on the floor is moms in the wake hope with another dead and the gone deal the old man. Oh man go Sunday only Ara George which WanNa be what you WANNA do so hot do what I. I wanted to rich rich rich. Did it in an awesome updated coming out. Just one refugee and talk about how the Fox cut. Just I just want your own. This look on the chat. Plus this mike is bleeding bro. The whole this is a no no no no plus for Netball Talk Talk. TALK SMOKE IN SOMEBODY AUTO VOLVO SWEATY SO-SO Game Tracy is he the Knicks Shays. I put on May be welcome back to the PODCAST. Is your host Chris here and we're here with episode seven. It's seven forty seven. I mean six forty seven of the tantric podcast. We're talking with some of the Clinton had in the last couple of weeks because we've Taken how taking a couple. Aw couple of weeks off join today Bob. A man all live on the West Coast Tim People's critic what's going on was up man. I just saw the Harriet Tubman movie. And I'm shocked that her. Kill Abraham Lincoln not accurate. Well he was a Zombie so it meets what you murdered him. We're GONNA WE'RE GONNA. We're GONNA talk more about that. We talked about that. It's insane. It's one of those things where he sent you see a movie. You might have some feelings about a movie and then you are seeing. Maybe we haven't seen the movie started talking about things you don't like but that's not what happened in the way though that's got me defend this movie. It didn't happen that way. I Ah Yeah I know. We'll get into Harry around this before we get into that. I do want to say because we we have a couple of weeks off. I'm put up with the schedule for for most of the MTR Network of what we're what will be having coming out over the next month so we are officially in November I just did the mailbag with Deepen we'll get that out soon. Probably around the same time this comes out it'll be on the supervisory feed. It was so funny. This feels like both the year has gone. Two thousand nine hundred feels like gone by really fast and also really really slow in both of those i. Don't you see that was me house me. I saw people like cost us for Halloween. That was this year old. I was telling him. Zam came out this year. Suzanne was this year I was like Oh shit was just so many things I do. I do track my year. Buy Movies because how many movies I see when they come amount but it feels like it's such a long twenty nine hundred and then also same son's like it's November already really g ally. What the hell? Yeah so So just because I got so much stuff going on here and I want to get some kind of scheduled for you all so we have the show today. We'll have an insanity sanity check. I believe coming up on the ninth and tenth with Jeff Might Get pushed a week depending on what schedules like. We'll have those and then we'll be one more sandy check episode six forty nine will come sometime in December. I'm working on lining the guests for that right now. But there's only going to be after this episode only to Mauritania checks for Twenty nine thousand nine hundred and that's just because honestly I know it's kind of crazy because it's like the race for for the elections heating up and things are happening. I don't give a shit about any of that I honestly is just. I'm tired I am tired between work. getting this house built The movies that we have coming up because they're going to be AH shit ton of stuff coming on the movie trailer feed just so we can watch movies. There's TV shows. I gotta get caught up tonight. On watchmen I got a gotTA finish I want to at least try to finish Jack Ryan season two like between all in the fucking in nine in days or something like that or shorter. We got Actually it's nine days exactly because it's the third right. Yes as the third. We got nine days until Disney plus drops demand laureate. So yeah I just in Star Trek's I'm like yeah. I need a break. So you're going to we're going to we're going to take the brakes for these handy checks so we'll be doing more shows this year and then we'll come back in January with episode six fifty at the beginning of twenty twenty. We'll do that On the care to Cornerside We'll have next week Department Oregon we we were going to do to part two of new mutants we. We decided because of the Claremont stuff twenty more issues. We're going to roll that into the Claremont x-men part four recording that next next week in as well so we'll have that that'll be the last numbered care to corner of twenty nine thousand nine then we'll have to pull this comes out in December sometime hopefully after doomsday clock comes out and then that will also give us some time to rest. Relax read about some of the stuff and then we'll come back back hitting hard with some some shows we have. We have some ideas for shows we're going to do for the cared corner Coming in twenty twenty. So but yeah that's the and then Obviously Super Tuesday recap. We'll just follow the shows Schedule those shows I think December tenth is the last crossover until so they go on break until January. So we'll be an irregular schedule for that show then and then unfortunately the movies eight we just review movies when they come out and we got a ton of that stuff so if you are a premium ever you already got two premium episodes this month with Terminator Dark Fate and Harriet. We put but those of their reviews and two because we were so many movies where we doing that more often. We're food were removed where we WANNA have a larger. Discussions will do a quick twenty minutes or less for movie trailer US fee. Put that up there. So you guys in here that and then if you're a premium you can come back and we'll talk a little bit longer on the spoiler reviews and that's allows US support for you. Faster also get premium content for faster. So that'll be happening. Hopefully I haven't scheduled this yet. We'll get tim joy a row and myself together and we'll be having a black critic roundtable to discuss some of the stuff out there. 'cause I know I would love to get it was me Rome brandin talking about Harry I would definitely love to get you enjoy and other kind of talk about then some other films that we saw this year because it the is a lot of films this year a lot of good ones. There's a lot of good ones. Yeah I'm saying I said this to Sensible joy in row is a lot of good fills. I feel like there's even better performances. Maybe maybe the film itself is one that I would nominate for best pitcher but there's performances out there that have been really really good. Good that I kind of wish that the best actor best supporting actor actresses Category was larger than just five. Because I have L. Larger list for that. I do best pitcher I know I know we do our voting in about a month for our Chris Association some Tron alike. Start Tearing down that I've seen in performances that I've liked. I don't like showing up soon for my laptop trying to plow two hundred movies. I'm trying to do some of that. Now it's tough. There's a lot of good performances this year. Yeah like I wouldn't necessarily say that to a great movie because because of some of the new review about that just you know kind of downplaying. Some of the evilness of Pope Benedict but those performance between Anthony Hopkins. Jonathan Pryce a really really good though like their performances. So there's a lot of that you know there's all thing thing you know people have muzzle feelings on the joker film and everybody says that or convenience has a great performance in that film so because a lot of good in that yeah right so there's a lot. There's a lot of that going going on where there might not be a film that you WanNa do but the performances themselves but this has been a really good performance year out there I have feel. I don't know if you saw. I have feelings on clemency but free Woodard is rough brandon. That ran for just mercy and I was like that so bad idea. That's the bad news too heavy right back and forth there but Yeah so we kind of mentioned a here Harriet there's yeah it's a movie about Harriet Tubman about Harriet Tubman and people have various various various opinions on it. You know when they go see like my thing is it's it's a fine movie as good performances is. It's the safe it's a safe. Harriet Tubman film right what I was saying I watched it was like this is the kind of movie I could see someone showing my nephew middle school to teach them about yes like a history teacher would just put on into the yearbook is watch movie and at the worry about nudity. Any like extreme violence silence. It's not sort of the the slavery torture porn stuff that we see usually. It's none of that is just sort of like. Here's the store probably historically inaccurate but hit some of the high points. Yeah isn't doesn't really doesn't drill down in anything like this is the thing that happened. Was the film that you could that you can. You can let your your class watch without having to send them home with the permission slip right because we've seen that before the movies that they can show you in the movie they'd be like we we ask your mom to sign this permission to say you can watch this and if you don't get the signature then you gotta go watch like the land before time and the other room while we watch this you know so title. It's not that right and I think the frustrating thing is the title card at the end seems like the more interesting move. It's its heritage as a spy. Harriet leading a troop during the civil war. Like like. That's the more interesting story that is that was one of the more if you're eating things for me when you get into the thing and they show you yeah. She was a spy for the Union. She worked at the spot for the Union army and then also she was one of three women to ever lead armed expedition Shen of an armed exhibition period in the US. I'm just like that should remind it reminded me of when you're sitting there you're in episode four and you're reading the title of four and you're going like wait. Show me that 'cause I WANNA be. That was rogue one not episode so four watches little you know whiny whiny kids skywalker. Go through like would show me that film. So yeah yeah I mean it is as what is now. The problem is there are two things right. Well there's one thing the whole thing and I'm not going to go deep down to it because as I said before I come to the point in my life I don't give a fuck anymore. it's the whole scenario commentary on you know Black Americans. And she's the anti-black American and all that other stuff guys. Look maybe. This is being problematic. Whatever here's the thing I don't care and also I don't know she's Anti-black Anti-black America? I think she said some dump stuff and I think I think her sentiment is something that people carry. She just tweeted it which I wouldn't have done right but But also that was a while ago right like this was and so on the press run. This isn't like Liam Neeson talking about hunting down black people right right right. I had I UH-HUH FANTASIES about hunting down black who Liam Liam calms down a little bit. So you're right and and and I'm not GonNa try to tell people how they feel about that. You feel how you feel if you feel certain you cannot support her on these films following that do that right. I honestly though at this point. Don't care and the reason I don't care because that's everyone. Everyone has something I can find something on everyone and so I've had to just to survive all right. I had to make certain certain certain allowances and certain choices. All Right Arcos are the world. They're raping little girls. I'm not going to allow that right. I'm not gonNA allow the Kanye West. Who clearly having a mental breakdown or if somebody's going on with him while also living up a white supremacist? I'm going to draw a line there. I'M NOT GONNA. I'm I'm just can't get all the way down to d into the tweets of Cynthia Repo and give initiate about I would've but that's the line for you. That's that's a line. Does that align live that line. Stay with that line that you do you. You got your thing right and I'm fine with that. The problem problem than came down to people then worrying about the movie right late lies like blatant lies. which and again if you have a pro their legitimate problems with this film with it being safe are eight? There are legitimate problems within. You don't have to go and lie about the film home and saying things like I think. The first one I saw was that she had a love affair with the they had a romance between her. And the slave owner the white guy. I can't remember the the white actor who replaces slave owner he was he. He was the primary love interest in film. Yeah who the primary Levinger Film and I'm like. Oh Ah okay so my question to you is. Where do you think someone would get that from? So I think what people got it from is and they were. They were the people that were. He's eight the people that were sitting the the screen shots of the reviews. I think it would. They were showing was There are quoting lines from any other reviews that said the relationship relationship between the two characters and I think people immediately went from relationship to our love interest. which is that is is is a huge leap the stretch? It's like a throwaway line when they talk about how friendly they were as kids and now she prayed for him when he was sick right. But that's let's cut it. There's no it's not lusting after her. There's never own moment. Like the first moment they have alone. He tells her. Why are you praying? God is listening to Niggers. That's what he tells her. There's no like moment of like they're alone he's like I'm sorry right there and it's like in maybe we'll everybody said that his love for her. It's like I said there's some Tonto On my on my facebook like this is love for like is that both love that abusers have right that he's a slave owner and he sees her as part of his property Operti and he's trying to entice her to come back to being a slave because he has is not a love is not he loves her is not this is not some Thomas Jefferson secret lovechild type deal type. Love Hear Sally Him is that that's not what this is right now. No not at all and they don't even try to go down. That path of she clearly has a husband she clearly they deal with that as a whole big thing on that so the the the whole thing and I and also sort of context right because because the context of the film is they're losing money and his mom tells him the only standing we have is the stage that we have and so that's that's that's that's what's motivating him to try to persuade her to come back right not a love her. The fact that they're they're going broke an and people pressuring them to sell their land. Yes that is so so when you add the Contin they're made even dumber right so there's that then there is a whole thing of they made The Black Baron bounty hunter who was hunting down runaway slaves the main antagonist antagonist of the film. And I was like. Oh that's true either. I WANNA say he might he. He's there but he's hired by the main antagonist of which is the white slave owner is there and I don't want to go into more detail. The film digits come out but there's another piece to that to the people sit there and say and I'm like again going back to the first part is like you're missing. Important context there and now I do know somebody were like like they feel like the that. That was Stretching the because Harry Tom and never interacted with a black bounty hunter of runaway slaves adding creative license and added into the film and for that. I'm like fine if that's the way you want to draw your line on these type of films uh-huh and that's okay but I honestly feel like most people don't draw the line on these kind of films. The don't cause some you know what movie had a white savior here. And it was historically inaccurate. Putting the film to save the day hidden figures but people didn't pile on hidden figures about that. That Kevin Costner care does not a real person that never mention of three different three three other different People right it's like right you know and and there were still support behind that that film to go see that film and and get it so and honestly to be fair. That's also better feel very very clear. There's also a better film so it was able to do that and I'm fine. I'm with that and I'm fine. If you have these problems with accuracy okay but then saw gonNA write about this on my time on and I just had this things like I think a lot of people awesome. You just have have this unique moment yourself to figure out. Maybe he's done to these films. I know I'm not the only reason why I saw. Harry is because literally I was killing time. I and I had time at the Middleburg film fessel. Had I not been there. I probably never would have seen Harry because honestly I'm not personally films. The Pike is just not my thing and it's not the whole well could is how the white people why people feel about these films and how they portrayed. Es Nova lie that it's like they fall into categories of me right. The first one is how Harry falls in which is they in order to make them more palatable film it is is watered down right and so it's more entertainment value than actual historic value. And in that case what happens you. I'm not telling the more interesting stories because I feel like if you told the story of her being a spy for the army of her being leading the more interesting aspects of of of Harry Shum in aren't as a palatable to wider audiences as being told here and then the second piece is if you didn't tell them to be more orderly accurate. I think they're harder to swallow. I still have not seen twelve. Oh Years Asleep yes I still have not. I refuse to see twelve years to sleep because I just like I'm good. I don't need to see that Shit. I was not going to go see birth a nation. Even before the whole nate Parker thing. I was not going to go see the nation. I do not need to see that stuff. I don't want to see that stuff. I understand that this history underhanded stuff there but honestly real real. I don't need to see it I'm good form of entertainment. It's not my entertainment and it's not even though about about the idea of Oh well could've slave round and it's just like honestly. I just is like romantic comedies. Romantic comedies. I don't know what last Christmas is coming now this week and I'm like yeah I told brand he was like why are you gonNA sounds like you're right. Why am I going to see this? I don't WanNa see this shit. Thankfully dexterously comes on the same night so I can easily make that choice but like Yeah Yeah No. I don't want to see that film so I'm like I don't go to see them so I feel that same way comes with these types of slave films. I feel like they were really sh- give you the the Harriet Tubman store you need and you WanNa see. That's historically accurate. One is a hormone right. 'cause I mean honestly Yada Yatta Yatta. The fact that she ran went over one hundred miles to freedom but like one hundred miles in the dark with no street lamps with no flashlight can't read nothing like that. Because that's a horror story like self like a nightmare. I ain't walking the street the through the woods. Of course my dad's house to to do a road I know is there. I'm not walking through that at night with no fucking flashlight. A hundred miles doing that. Shit like actually like like here trying to survive the purge what what did you eat how did you. I don't want to go into that level of detail. Turn something like I don't know of anybody. That's that's going to be hard to watch right and also I don't know how cinematic it is story but like you I mean there's a certain level of skill telling that story and making interesting right right exactly so and not the director not skilled. But you know it's a certain level of skill this this doesn't necessarily between story in a in a in a in a history history in a history book and then making story something that people want to sit for two hours and watch it is right now. Right and I'm honest and having seen films like just mercy and Clemency Agan Tell you man I don't know how much of these black pain stories I can sit through in the I. Just I don't know I honestly Detroit. Detroit was well made film but also it was black torture porn at times and I was like absolutely not not doing that from bail station. Her is a great film. Never have seen fruitvale station. 'cause absolutely not. I know how that ends not doing that to myself. So I think a lot of people fall in that category and they don't they feel guilty by saying that You know and so oh I think you should own that. Also the flip side of that is don't shame people and telling them they have to see this shit. I was seeing people go. Will you need to go support. Report this film or don't say that you can't support other black belt. Who Don't don't be surprised? What other black films? Don't get made all right pause that that argument doesn't fly no more it. Does it right in the in the years following you know. Get Out of us all Black Panther and all the strata Outta Compton and all these other things that have made money in a major theaters. You don't get to make that argument that I have to see this this torture porn or the slave movie in order for these black films again made tyler. Perry did open up a huge can theater right. I say what you want about Perry. He has a whole own. Theater of theater has hormone studio lot. Now that we you made it so you don't get this. Make that argument. I have to see these films in order for For the eighth the same argument about a red tails wasn't a good film. But you have to go see retails are they're not gonNa make these stories anymore. I'm like I'll be okay. I don't buy that argument But yeah it's just been it was. It was funny watching people. Take these two engines on this film. People lied and said like the craziest live will i. I saw which was accompanied by a clip that was out of context and sort of cut off at the right moment was there. Harry needed saving from the White White Man from the black bounty hunter and and then he forgave her. She forgave him and I was like. That's not even remotely. What happens in the film home and they just put the clip of him telling Harry I'm going to kill you and then getting bigger getting shot And cutting it off L. like well. Yeah if you watch the rest of that Cla he chases after Harry and then Harry. It's not killing. Him is more to do with her faith in like absolving him of slavery is not as often people shouldn't own other people like God's unlimited for their own people like that. I'm sorry from the dialogue in the film is often. Shoot him in the hand right so. It's not like Dan off like it's like come on like like. Oh Massa I forgive you. And he's not trying to save it from him killing his his Negro who disobeyed him because because he told people a million times I want her taking the live right so big along goes to kill her. Obviously he's like no. I'm shooting you in the head because you're just another Negro and who's is GonNa stop me from shooting you 'cause I want her alive because she's my property right that's it. It's the trump we've seen in all kind of action movies where the underlying is doing something. The big boss doesn't doesn't want and the big boss kills them Yeah it's it but framing is like he's saved her again. It's it's the frame anything and the thing that got me to in this is this. Is it a bother me. The most about all of this was especially when we're leading into a an election year is how easy people went with ally. Yeah man over in like I learned people come in and we're trying to tell me that when I'm like the film but I have and I'm telling you I'm telling you that's what would have happened and then there was no are my bad. Let me delete that tweet. We let me do that. It was just kind of going on and kind of or moving onto well well. Cynthia really doesn't like black Americans so that's really my issue with no. Oh see near just trying to search for an issue maybe you do have a feeling about her with that way but you pushing allies on that you know listen listens and yeah that was my takeaway is the same as yours is like I. I watched it happen in real time which this is really scary. I had never seen a lie like that travel in real time and people just re tweet and and quote tweet quote. We tweet something that they hadn't and seen and it's taking people's work for and people who I imagine. They trust to tell them. The truth are telling them lies or spreading lies. I've seen people make the ship readiness. Veto you know this girl may refer going on a rant. Nils apparent from the rant. She hadn't seen the movie of. Oh you haven't seen it because you're saying about stuff is not true She's not saying Hanson Dancing. The movie she just telling people why should boycott. But here's the thing. These people will never have to apologize for what they've done they'll just move onto the next outrage orig- yeah you'll never going to have to be like. Oh you know what man I was one hundred percent wrong about the thing. I didn't like about this film. The stuff that I will spreading wasn't true no videos and everything and the thing that got me about it was I was telling me what it was like. I was saying this like listen. There are plenty of things like about this film. You don't have to make things things up like you're not that far off in saying if you want to go the route of it doesn't do a Harriet Tubman. Just as I'm an agreement with you on that one you can go down that route and actually seen the film who tell you that you are a hundred percent right on that but to go down this path of Oh these things which again you said are purposely taken out of order and out of context to to trend. In and get people riled up and then people win with people went with. It's so hard in in guessing about it is. There wasn't just a Harry thing right. It's it seeing how especially as we get into the election season like to this day I still I'll see people complaining about Making making the jokes in the comments about how Hillary Clinton tried to appease a black people by carrying hot sauce in her bag of. Yeah Yeah and and it drives me crazy because I'm like but like because to me. It shows you the staying power of ally in in how it can go and how hard it is combat. That I'm like I can show you. I can show you newspaper clippings from her back in when she was the the first lady talking about how she has a thing for hot sauce. That is her thing. Everybody who knows who apparently person knows. That's her thing right isn't it was not some Trying to appease the black people it is everyone knows. Hillary Clinton is a hot sauce. Phen- she carries a case of hot sauce with her everywhere she goes does that is just what she does but because people will have an opinion about her already they would rather go with that lie and discredit and keep going with it versus going all right cool. That's fine and I'm like that's the problem you face right. That is a problem always going to face is that it's always it's easier for the lie to stick is easy for people to go with Crooked Hillary that then go. Oh no actually this this this same thing with his hairy movie. I'm sitting of the entire going like guys. If there's things you want do this I went to a whole. I had to hold threats. Ask Me like I'm hearing you say that this is wrong. But you're not giving any rebuttal about the enterprise back up like I have to fucking threads and I have a whole as written review and audio review and premium for members who go into the exact details pills of this. You're not trying to find the answers. You don't WanNa you don't WanNa hear the truth because it didn't fit into the narrative the trying to push is easy to slam. I'm doug get these jokes off the news it'd be like well actually that's not. That's not factual I mean there's told people today that I know for a fact we're pushing that Hillary Clinton in Donald Trump with Two sides of the same coin. Bullshit then now as we're ramping up this time again is all that. Don't don't shame people voting don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this. y'All blaming us for this and this and this and my yes. You don't seem to understand that again that goes into the whole thing with facebook and we're kind jumping around here but facebook hole of not wanting to deny Political as they know are false right. I'm like you guys realize how dangerous that is but so many of you will push dangerous and false things during the election cycle last time and then took no responsibility for it. So which way is is ro thanks. So is it that the false ads at politic- politics running basil because allowing are wrong in that we shouldn't allow the pushing of lies or is it just not okay when politicians pay for visit. Okay when you do it right right right. Yeah it's fascinating to watch people just like you said no responsibility and they'll just move on. They will just casually acquis if we've the same people who are on TV all the time push that you know Hillary's no different than than trump and within be outraged by the stuff trump is doing and I want to be like. Did you think Hillary was on and do any of this kind of stuff. It's it's do you generally think she was GonNa do any of this. No probably not. It's interesting to me watching all the moderate and republican conservative commentators like Joe Scarborough in in Mika presents all them about how all them laughed laughed at at Cornell Liberals who were claiming that that Donald Trump would would would would wreck the constitution and would be a travesty with a lot of people love and do all these things how they used to back in Twenty fifteen in two thousand sixteen mock people who were saying those things saying that would never happen and we have checks and balances and never happen. Now we're here. We're looking in two thousand. Nineteen them all going. Oh this is a constitutional crisis and all this other stuff. Who have seen that happening? I'm like everyone we all everyone. Everyone told you we on the debate stage. Yeah and you you laugh. You said that it was impossible in. That wouldn't happen but we told you that was going to happen because it didn't happen right at that moment you let it go and here we are so I think people people because Hillary was right. They let that their dislike of her cloud the fact that she was on point about a lot of stuff she said about this guy. Yeah Yeah Yeah people actual about it. Absolutely but they don't like her so it's like you know what it is some see not Harry for yourself. I was glad to see people on twitter. Be Like Hey. I'm glad I saw it for myself. A lot of what I read on here wasn't true. Yeah Yeah I mean again if you come in with the knowledge of what the kind of film and honestly having seen the trailer. I don't know how you could be. That surprised surprised. Surprised by the film it is. I mean I feel like it'd probably did live up to the trailer. I also know personally myself. This is these films for me there. They're just not. I don't in care to see them. I just don't know but I know that about myself and a lot of people need would do a lot better by knowing themselves and I mean there's a reason why you'll oh see joker I know myself. I don't need to sit. Don't need to sit through that and torture myself. I don't have I don't have fair missing out I really. Don't they really really do movies to see I can. I can trust me I can. I can afford to miss out on some things I do want to say one thing. Can we kind of jumped jumped some more heavy stuff and I do WanNa kind of ring back because This is This is the third day and You know he has arisen the public sandwiches back. He's back. I saw that the lines are already around wrapped around Papa's brought the chicken. Sandwich is back on a Sunday by the way just to kind of poke. Poke poke it at a Chick-fil-a who is not open on Sundays and Yeah I'm I'm hoping one time because I did not get one less. Have you had one. I have not had one yet home. This time around I can grab one. Yeah I'm I'M GONNA try tomorrow at work. I'm I'M GONNA try to see leave. Leave the office and go over. The Papa's around the corner from me because in trying to get one. I'm hoping they won't have the lines I see. I live in a pretty black area so I hate to say we love our fried fried chicken but it's just like that's his stereotype is real. I know this is one of those areas I feel like we. We Accept Yo. No it's just accept it accept it like I never forget this story. I told her I would live in back in Atlanta and I walked into this The Chinese food place else. You know Chinese food place have great fried chicken. Some sitting the Chinese food plays in this. Why do walks in behind? Hi Me it was a data pill skit he has. He was good here before answering. The chicken isn't Elvis was like damn motor of five. I was on the order of five wings and fries and I was like. Yeah the chickens. Good God damn it. I felt like such a stereotype. That day But Yeah Yeah so get your get your PA chicken sandwich. I'm hoping I've seen the reports that apparently they have a Popeye's Popeye's has hired more base surge staff to handle this Wow I would hope that to me. This is one of the things of maybe pay them a little bit more or to make a little bit more maybe pay them a living wage. Possibly you know working Popeye's he had to deal with people in all people getting mad because they didn't get the chicken sandwich they wanted Pay paying a little more and set it up so we have that because November. We've also reached the point where Christian Christian music is already playing for trump now to trace amounts of Christmas music and I have to say folks Thanksgiving here there is. There is a holiday in between Halloween and Christmas Mike I guess the problem is there is no Thanksgiving music when he they've given music. I don't know what it would be though what it would be up. The back of my mind immediately went to the sounds Anita American screaming so that probably is why it probably isn't there. Yeah Yeah probably we don't have. We don't have Thanksgiving Music But yeah we are now in the point of yeah. Cursing music is are is czar. Playing everywhere you go And we now have the rest of sales from now until the end of the year so oh I saw trees trees and stuff up at target before Halloween. That's all the decoration. Yeah it was already up crazy. That is when you can't even respect colleen you know went from strength from Labor Day to Christmas eight Labor Day right to Christmas but yeah we got two Two months left Timing of that stuff in Yeah I'm it I'm just never prepared. I feel like Christmas clan. sneaks up on me every year. Even though they are planning the Christmas music earlier and earlier I swear to God is going to get to the point. It's going to be delighted. They're going to be playing Christmas music in July. Yeah Christmas it's going to happen and then eventually is going to that point. The teen titans they were Santa Claus. Nineteen Times it's kind of a villain and he was post-christmas twenty four seven and all all year around Christmas time because that point we're going to be Easter and we're GONNA be selling back. Listen I have some friends who love Christmas they will would not mind that at all that will love it. Yeah I mean yeah it's thing is the thing is the thing so just want to make sure everybody's aware. Yeah just you know at this point. Even though I'm mad about it just stop fighting it. Embrace it just embrace it like I'm. I'm leery talk about this I they're either. TV or little Christmas commercial on right now. Yeah man I wonder. It's probably target target commercial. This is literally literally at Christmas commercial happening right now with people in Christmas pajamas. I cannot believe it it is November third is target target. Is Doing Christmas commercials roles already. UN fucking believable. I'm discussing Larry involved. Everyone involves discussing Spinner Keno Discussing Bill. Maher says the dumbest things I saw that I don't watch his show. I haven't avenue in years. I wish mm auto. I don't even know he's on anymore. I only his name pop up when he's either says something stupid or does something stupid or has somebody stupid on. Yeah that's generally wear Bill Maher. You're right now so bill Morris vaccine a vaccine autism link is not crazy we don't know shit. Of course the scientists do no shit. But you know I if you talk show host. Bill Maher allowed vaccine vaccine- vaccinations skeptic to air his views on the discredited link between vaccines and autism on Friday night and many points appear to agree with him skeptic. Dr J. Gordon was the first guest on the on the real time with Bill Maher episode. Enjoy no real pushback. From his repeated esser assertion that vaccine axiom could cause autism mar contributed to the conversation by sharing his medical history. Melissa airs a modern medicine. I'm just saying we don't know Shit Maher said we don't know a lot about how the body works. So how do vaccines fitting in with it. I don't know all the new chemicals. There's thousand new chemicals pollutants irritant. We didn't use to have all this corn syrup in our bodies antibiotics. Could it be any combination combination. I'm just curious your fucking comedian. You're not a scientist. That's why you don't fucking know. Oh yeah he's literally comedian. Turn talk show hosts like that's why and he probably vast vaccinated on imagine magic. Yes yes we also have like we. There's also we have a global measles outbreaks happening happening and a record setting year in two thousand nineteen. Why is measles making a comeback? 'CAUSE motherfuckers aren't vaccinating like that's why bye bye. Don't listen to these dumb asses who don't know science. Nearly the entire medical community agrees accent vaccine. Gene do not cause autism as shown by large cities and just as past year some patient parents refusal to vaccinate their children and places like California and New York that to rise in in preventable illnesses that alarm public health officials and lead to some drastic measures and accounting north of New York City unvaccinated Myers were barred from public basis for several weeks wchs although mar analogy the vaccines work. He does audience which appeared to be two largely support. What he was saying that the idea that the cause autism still marriage debate? You know to call this. This is crazy person. He told born. Really what you're saying to you know to call you this crazy person. He told Gordon really what you're just saying is a slower vaccination timetable maybe less numbers and also take into account individuals. People are different family. History stuff like that. I don't think that crazy more than the lent credence to vaccinations sentiment. There's all these parents who say I have a normal child go I had a normal child. Got The vaccine in this story. Keeps coming up is seems to be more realistic to me. We're just going to be realistic about this. Like it probably happens so rarely but you can't you can't say it happens one the million times because then somebody could be millions one so you scare people you can. You can't say when might be the more real option. Might be the more more realistic opinion. You know what. Let's play devil's advocate right. I hate doing that ballistic that. Let's let's say that there is a link to autism autism and vaccine in his one in a million Vaccinate your fucking kids. It's one in a million pure that million if you're that million parent look at the fucking draw you gotta suck it up. Autism is in a deficit. And you'll be fine autism like that's the other thing that bothered me about this whole thing too. Is People make. It seem like autism. Is the death sentence like your kids getting cancer or HIV or something. Yeah so your. Your kid has autism okay. You know there's plenty of people while here living just fine with autism there's varying varying stages in burying somebody has autism is there is a wide range of of where that person fold in and having autism so already that break. You saying that you're not going to do this because there's a one in a million chances. You're kicking have autism. I'm like my instrument and it'd be somewhere on that spectrum somewhere on the spectrum somewhere mice within his and and you have a Byu heavy better one in a million chance. You better chance of being of being struck by lightning. You don't stop going outside do you. So you know what your kid is. When he has autism he's alive? I didn't want to go that far. I didn't want it. I didn't even bring that aspect of well in the beginning of the vaccine. My kid wouldn't have autism but they might be dead. Yeah the might have measles some other the disease because you didn't want to get them tested these at least they're not somewhere on the spectrum of autism right but also again this one million chant again one million million. Let's say one million you. That is the things that could affect your child their less odds than that. You don't stop you. Don't you. Don't go outside Kigali get bit by a tick in get lime disease you anything about that. You're not something that you kick start by lightning. Don't you know know dog. I remember going to Africa and I had all these different vaccines and of course people do this. They don't even question it. They don't don't do them because she was like listen. You cannot get these vaccinations but if you get sick when you come back we're going to quarantine you now that well all right let me get let me sit through it. All and other countries won't let you in without. You can't get in without this thing Gordon for his part advise parents vaccines precaution while announcing a lack of scientific evidence stance. I can't prove anything so I talked quietly. Maybe talk at all fucker to shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up more rounded up as we all right bigger. Dennis Prager prager university. That turned out youtube videos. Full of prager opinions. He joined University of California Journalism. Professor Christina Ebola Tony and former NBA ministry a station official Richard St for a panel discussion discussing which he falsely asserted that Russia did not attempt to undermine that democracy in two thousand sixteen. If this Dennis Prager on your show why was the point. I don't understand to this point and why people are watching Bill Maher show also affect. Why are you gonNA show what does it? What does he adding to it? Well how does whole debate at work with this guy about these types of the people who end up like it was you know candace Owens and and and the you know Katrina Pierce around that revolt panel and I was like what's the point of having them on because they're not going to be honest about anything that's happening then. At the moment you backed into a corner with actual facts. They'll just spew off a bunch of stuff. That's not an accurate and so what's the point of having them on because it's not like you're actually having the debate of of ideas it. Someone spreading lies in not I haven't ever repent for them or back up and just to spread misinformation and move on hits and so why so why have yeah. That's what I came. Naturally it's people want want hits in clinics the Joe Rogan's Bill Myers even puffy. Like the one thing I was telling my friends about it was like we've all known there've been even doing this. Show one episode six forty six forty seven hundred thirty seven so you covered politics for a while we both know there have been tons of black Republicans out there who very conservative and very much. Gop led right but what they don't do some of them is dive into this nonsense. Is that we've seen in the past four five years This always trump Conspiracy Theory Bs that that that sort of lane but the reason these people are on these panels. Because they won't do that. Oh well look put it this way not GonNa do that have rational conversations but there's no space space for that put it this way the there's a reason why you see abundant people asking for brand Kenya's OEM's on to represent black Republicans. But Not Colin Powell. Exactly even Michael Steele's crisis Brent. That'd be was or even. Yeah Michael Steele. You know. With a reason why his own. Because you know you're gonna GonNa say something that's going to generate conflict is going to generate controversy in controversy sells like that is what you're doing here and I'd rather people just admit that versus this whole idea of warm doing it to have both sides of conversation bubble of of well. That's not a nobody. No mind that you know. It's not a real conversation. It's not on news workers as do all the time it's like. Why did you hire like there is I can't remember seeing in higher camera guy they hired but you do that then. Later went on and then Should it on one of the military guy who gave the some testimony against trump trying to say on American. Or something like that. If you got to come out and be like why did you even bring this guy on. Why are you why are you? Why are you paying with dude to have these opinions? When he's clearly he's clearly making Sharon having been being divisive it because what happened? You got a bunch of responses to that controversy. Got People watching whether it's a small clubs things afterwards right and that's what keeps it. Going is just what it is controversy sells you know if everything wasn't that way then it'd be NPR correct. Yeah so more of that leading up to the election more information more of this. We've got to hear both sides and let's bring this person on and I wasn't. I'm okay with hearing both. Oh sides if both sides are honest in the discussion that they're having they're just not if the other side is legit side right and let's be honest here. There are a lot of the other side they are not. They're not aside their opportunistic. They should that's why they have no. They have no morals they they have no no foundation which is why there was this. Why you can't really trip up can is Owen? Because she doesn't believe in anything no yes so so just sort of tap dancing around anything right exactly so you switch or or do they do like what we were talking about. What the Harry people? Just move to something else. You have a legit issue. You have an issue with Cynthia Rio okay fine and you just pay everything around that and so when you're found to be wrong you just go back to the fact well Severo said so. That's why I'm really upset. All right cool fine. Whatever I at this point I just can't anymore? I'm I'm done with these people because I feel I do feel like I feel like this is true I feel like a lot of people are religious. Really Unhappy Yeah. I feel like like I used to argue with people would not because I was unhappy because I was just like Some do board gotta do it now and not only that. But it's like I genuinely wanted to have. I am generally going like no. You guys are wrong on this. Why are you not seeing? How wrong you are on this stuff But I've realized that I think are really just in it just to trend order to get things out or they literally just have nothing going on there. They're really unhappy with their lives. Like I see so optimism people and I'm like yeah. You know what I would just I told you before any point I can walk away kind of started doing that. I'm just GonNa walk away and let y'all have this because it means more to you than a dozen me so y'all have that because I can't I moved on into another story. I call this. The white people need in Natural Predator Natural predators are thing Python found quote around the drowned the dead woman's Brown Dead Woman's Neck Indiana home owned by sheriff with one hundred forty snakes. Hurry a wait. Hyphen found coiled around dead. Woman's Nick in Indiana home owned by Shariff with one hundred and forty snakes. Thirty six year old woman died Wednesday after he was found with an eight foot snake wrapped around her neck and Indiana House owned by the Benton County. Share Don Munson and set up specifically for a collection site in the Indiana state. Police said the woman who police have not named at As of twelve forty five pm Thursday notification a Fam Fam family apparently kept one hundred forty snakes in the house starting Kim Riley and any in a state police will I said Munson who lives next door to the House told Journal told the Journal and courier Thursday afternoon that he found the woman in the blue ranch with snakes on Wednesday evening rally that the cause of death will be determined during autopsy She appeared to be strangled by the snake. We do not know for a fact until we have the autopsy Z.. Results told the Journal on carrier. That hurts her staff's was attacked with so I think this is this is up. Do they actually did find out the lease name. Name was something. Hearst that hearst's death with a traffic accident with a loss of human life being fully cooperative with everybody the corner owner. There's another ORKLA had on this basis said that She curled up in the bed with the snake and the snake wrapped around her encounter. I would you skirl was a python. It's up yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yeah but they they basically set up a a house with For one hundred forty saints for it was basically a rescue house for snakes. Oh that's nice in theory. Athlete practices not working out. Yeah he look terrible win at Di she's a terrible horrible way to die World League it's a python curled up next to it took so out there. Was this a horrible way to die. Like her name was Laura Hearst this is a battleground any in a owned about twenty six snakes kept in the house And this e says apparently visited the House about twice twice a week and the house was made for keeping snakes. Nobody else lived there. The snakes an apparently being taken from that killed her apparently been taken from its closure the other than the House version on the cages when the police arrive after getting a call on nine pm just before nine pm on Wednesday in this article says legal had had that many snakes there are no law jurisdiction house with so many snakes said can rally engine any state police. The UNIT EH in Indiana Department of Natural Resources did not regulate the position of any species of python. Four constrictor are regarded as length the DNR spokes person. Marty Benson in Indiana does not also does not regulate python because they aren't Does not regulate pythons. Good they're not native to Indiana state. Regulators are requiring permits for venomous snakes and endangered species pieces of snakes lizards. Hold the RENOVA mistakes in the house just ones that could grow eight feet long and kill you buy string leader deaf. Yeah Yeah In two thousand fourteen in the report found that any in his rules were wild and exotic pets more lenient than most surrounding states. Who can own just about any animal as a pet? As long as they have a proper a permit for it. Why people need Why why people need a he'd natural predators they do? I really do another reason. Why people need natural predators? Listen I do not give a shit about the gender of your baby. I WANNA be the gender of your baby. Oh Yeah I saw. The people died in a gender reveal. I absolutely I don't talk about it. Normally I definitely don't give them the fuck of enough about it to die. Woman killed in Gender Jenner reveal. Explosion was forty five forty five feet away from the device but died instantly. Yeah they said it. Put gunpowder authorities authorities on money. Is Iowa authorities on Monday released. The name of the woman killed after she was struck by debris during a gender reveal announcement Saturday in Iowa. The was identified as Pamela. Cry Cry Cormier. Fifty six in a news release Monday from Marin County Johny shares office share Jason Assembled Office said in a investigation showed the family members working on ways to Make Fun Making Fun Fund announcement of Charles Ginger for social media inadvertently created a pipe. Bomb Dinner Ville pipebomb members of describe. The Myer family were experimenting with different types of explosive materials. On Friday and Saturday the news release said six people including Primera and the mother gather Saturday and put gunpowder inside of a homemade. Stand that was wheel to a metal base They put a piece of wouldn't of the gunpowder and some colored gun powder on top of that. Stan had a hole drilled inside it for fuse finally table fucking bomb. Mom What are you doing. How do you think bombs work so fucking stupid stupid like all just simeon email? I don't care about the gender your gender your baby. I really don't but if you need to do that send me a fucking email email like this whole like this. When did this? Jinnah reveal thing. Become a thing. I didn't even know when I don't have kids so I don't know gyn reveals can become a thing. I didn't know this was the thing going my God. Finally they put the finally tape was wrapped over the top of the assembly. The idea was for the gunpowder to blast the color powers cave general top of the stand of sorry. I shouldn't be laughing at. This woman did die but God but she died instantly. This is so stupid it it is dumb it is like I don't. What did they find on the Internet? Like a pipe bomb decided. I mean it won't be a pipe bomb because because we added pink we added food color. Yes blue powder to the to the gunpowder. So it's not going to be a bomb anymore. It's GonNa be a reveal A smoke bomb GIZMO but Yeah you can definitely folk MOMS right. There's this easy and they don't they don't expose. I like that quote. The colored smoke comes out what is the desired effect. It's not you don't WanNa Big Bang. Jesus man but the explosion instead middle shrapnel flying Kramer who was standing family members about forty-five feet away with truck instantly with a piece of metal talking on the head the news release. They could have all died. They all of them all of them could have died. I'm sorry I hate to say it this way but they are lucky. Only one person died all of them all all of them could've died. The debris continue flying for well over a hundred more yards central. It made a bomb bomb. The actual bomb also released a statement. This family got together for what they thought was going to be a happy event with no intention for anyone to get it hurt. You built a bomb. You build a bomb you billabong only only Americans can do something like this to build a bomb. I thought nobody was going to get hurt. Ended up having having with Pamela Crimea. Ca Meyer a wife. Mother and grandmother was killed by piece of metal where middle stand gunpowder and color powder were involved. There's reminded anytime someone makes it these. I think there's a high potential first series injury or death. Please take unnecessary risks. CAJOLES go out to the family. So that's one right. Here's the thing that wasn't the only one so it's another one. The walkie fire department also in Iowa announced Tuesday that Jinnah reveal explosion over the weekend shook homes more than two miles away. Forty said the incident took place on. They thought to walk walk. He said he limits on a vacant lot of St. The losing occurred one day after a gender reveal in in Knoxville. The kill fifty six year old if hamlet primary so the second one key fire department captain Tommy ties. Dole says that the property owner using a ten right. I gender reveal boombox kit. They shot with a rifle which is legal there in the county and so they are not in city limousine key so as far as we know is legal or well. He residents felt the blast so that the galaxy of the reveal kit brings brings little comfort around the back trying to figure it out. I looked at my neighbors. Does your everyone behind me. Looked at me like a look like they were intact. My wife and I stared at each other like what was what was that Says Resident Kelsey Malone. I thought it was something in the basement looked at the basement took the stairs took the garage title said. No injuries were reported in the explosion with the injury is always possible. Anytime you're dealing with any type of explosion in dangerous now awesome. I gotTa look and see what this do. They actually have a kit for this. You use the kit to make Jin reveal thing and people were are people like just you're kind of spice it up a bit and then blowing themselves up. I don't know I'm not the remember doing this. PODCAST in your folks so this is how you find the stuff out we. Yeah we do this right now because I probably hit it before but I didn't look it up so I just assumed people were buying reveal stuff from like a party store. Okay make not making them at home all right so the boombox. It's kind of always before it already comes with the power so they don't mix themselves with other eighty s did It contains cornstarch might on fire due to friction. Please be careful to place your target in locating the does not have anything flammable nearby See here It is yeah so the tin arrived gender. Reveal boombox everything you need for a gender reveal with the color blades color powder and one pound ten right brand binary rifle target all wrapped in one. Beautiful package the packers. Conceal powder conceals color inside just opened the Flap on the front. The box mixed target. According to the directions the box contained a color blues Color Blazes Pink or blue collar powder and one pound ten right brand targets on assuming that's one pound and a basically gunpowder then explodes while direction are printed on the box in the targeted. Please note if they say they actually have video of this explosion. Yeah hold on let me see. Yeah it's I'm looking at this go. Yeah the God these are so fucking dumb so basically you have a rifle you shoot at it and it explodes. God knows what I'm thinking of. I'm seeing these it doesn't it. It didn't look. It made a lot of noise but I'm wondering if what they did. The WHO did is probably maybe spice it up a little bit I try to addicts or stuff to it. God this is so that doesn't sound dangerous from what you're reading out of maddening. They tried to like you know augmented in some way to make it more a bigger reveal and ended up creating a bigger bomb instead of a bigger smoking to smoke bomb. Or just. Don't do it but we just don't do it. People warn them for the Internet for facebook and Instagram. And you know we'RE GONNA record the gender of our baby and we're we're going to find out and it's I'd imagine it's fun fun. Hopefully for the people having a child but not making a bomb. Here's thing here's the thing. No no one gives a fuck about the ginger your baby. I know you need to hear that you need to hear that. Nobody talk about the gender of your baby baby. Nobody not even you really. Because what's going to happen if your baby. You're expecting a boy. But you get a girl or you get a non-binding what is fucking manner. You having a baby are growing fucking human being in Saudi. Is your baby healthy. Is your baby healthy. And even if it's not what are you going to do. I mean like who the fuck cares. There's not enough one to lose your life over in to scare some people in the middle of fucking nowhere in Iowa and the thing and they're under a terrorist attack all right just fucking stop. Yeah don't worry it's not a terrorist. We're just having a boy. Oh Okay Cool Outta. Aw Jesus Christ folks like what is Jesus they won't. They won't stop I just I just can't Um So we got that Speaking of Dumb Home Corp that's up not coming up all of a sudden I had this trying to read them off line because my husband that dies. I'm trying to read them on my phone. Does it from a few weeks ago. We miss this one. There's a lot of stories in trump land and stuff like that going on with the impeachment process of that. I'll be honest folk not going to cover any of that shit. Let me know we. All we know is bad. Let me he know when he if he gets impeached and removed from office until that point. I'll be honest. None of the Shit bought none of the ship moves me none of the like you. I wonder why it doesn't move me. I'll say rock. We'd why doesn't move me. Nothing that anybody's saying right now is getting fully on record and stuff like that anything that anybody should be remotely surprised is by. Now you're at so in. The rubbings are already showing that they were going to do everything in their power to be idiots in and try to support a Muslim cancel at this point. I'm just like vote. You WanNa talk about of office. You want held accountable vote. That's what that's what. I'm betting my game on. If somehow impeachment does work and they get out that way I I'll take it. I'm not gonNA take it. I'll eat that I'll be wrong with them when our I'll be happily wrong on on that one but I'd rather just putting that I know would would would would definitely work voting and getting that of office. I also don't give the shit right now but the different I know Beto dropped out airland. There's some news the Buddha Gig. The the mayor of Albin I've been is now kind of surging. Oil was like that. But he's polling at zero percent with Black People Latino voters so that means he's also not a real candidate so I don't give a shit. What about him either Apparently some people are trying to blame again once again blamed black people for being homophobic. And that's why they're not voting for him. Well we don't own homophobia it's bright and it can't be possibly be the fact that he also has a terrible history of by people in his own take as a real thing so there's that so you know Yeah so I don't give a shit I don't don't care you will let me know. I know a lot of people are working on that stuff. You let me know what happens by the time Maryland votes. Hopefully it'll be a new house of that point above us how Maryland Votes We'll probably know who the the the nominees anyway. So I'll do then at this point. None of the shit moves me matters manners to me. I don't care I just doubt just tell me who I need to vote for Donald Trump. I'm there so not bringing this up but I do want to cover the The fact that the are really dumb criminals all of them around them are idiots and I love anything that makes the former mayor of New York. Look bad rudy. Giuliani Johnny Butt dials. NBC reporter Heard cussing trashing the Biden's a late night on October sixteenth rudy. Giuliani made a phone call to this reporter. The fact that Johnny was reaching out wasn't remarkable he then reporter spoken earlier that evening for a story about all his ties to the Iranian opposition group. But this call it was soon become clear. Wasn't a book of a source following up with reporter. The call came in eleven zero seven PM. The and went to voicemail and the poor sleep then if more than the message exactly. Three minutes long was sitting in the reporters male and the recording. The words to tumbled out of Julia's mall offer not directly reporter. He's someone else in the room. Giulani could be heard discussing overseas dealings lamenting the need for cash though diggle during the full content of the conversation the call all appears to be one of the most unfortunate Faux Pas which is known as the casual a butt dial. It wasn't the first time happen. Julianne said at the start of the recording Charles would have a hard time with a fraud case because he didn't doing any due diligence wasn't Charles's or who may have been implemented fraud in fact much of the message first minute difficult to comprehend cameron in part because the calm voice other of the man in the conversation is muffled and barely intelligible Yeah So Rudy Doc. Giuliani Is An idiot. And but dialed a reporter. That basically kind of went into dealing about how he doesn't have any cash and also the it's like yeah. Of course he did. I think what bothers me. The most is not even like it goes. It's leaving all about the George W we can go further back about just with the George W. Bush era too so not even smart criminals. That's what drove me crazy crazy right. They're not even smart criminals like dress. It up pretend lie to me right. Don't don't don't make it so fucking easy and then have your cronies come out and try to tell me that what I heard and when I saw is it real clearly Israel just this is why so tired of me. This is why I refuse to cover that much. Because what's the point is exhausted to set a lease. It's exhausting hearing the news. I can imagine trying to talk about it in a real way. Yeah yeah no fuck them. So that was interesting. Let's see has one other story here. They were GONNA be. Who is it Oh yeah then also because because they're also horrible people So Treasury was at the at the White House at a Halloween party. Children were to build the wall at the Halloween White House. Halloween party a Halloween Louima party on October. Twenty fifth at the Eisenhower also building. Peter Candy era planes people airplane in there for some ten dis a station where children were encouraged to help build the wall with your own personalized bricks. That scene funnier tournament are over with the paper wall. Were provided a Yahoo News. The party which took place inside the office building used by the White House staff included the families of the decorative brand employees by VIP. He gets inside and outside of the government even though many of the attorneys remember trump president trump administration never went thought. The Halloween game was a treat horrified. We were horrified. That a person who was is there a question on amity to Avoid Professional Ra retaliation. Here's the problem his problem. Why are you horrified? If you are working with his administration you should. I know this is par for the course. The Eisenhower executive office building across from the White House as large portion on the West Lean support staff is home Sununu the build the build. The Wall Mural was the I was on the first floor outside saw the speech writers office next to the Office of Digital Strategy and Beecher red paper breaks each bearing the name of a child alarms on the vice bill. Build the wall uh-huh kids dressed as superheroes Ninjas were given brick colored paper cars until it right the name with marker and take them to the wall along the paper will were signs including the ones that right America America first slogan often used by president. Prompt that have been criticized because it was previously employed by the KKK. Wow again it's exhausting. Why are you bringing up kids to the White House to do that? They don't want to be building. A wall on. Halloween gives a free candidates in them on their way to a costume contest. I got nothing I. It's it's it's a mess Saab. Stop doing that to your kids man. Let them let them live speaking of a mess and this weekend no one's cancelled a apparently Harvey Weinstein made appearance at a comedy club. Job and the women who heckled him were kicked out Harvey Weinstein turned up events for young actors. They woman confronted him thrown when out. Woman comedian was booed and kicked out after they protested. The errands disgrace Hollywood producer. Harvey Weinstein Performance in Lower Manhattan on Wednesday night night wanting turned up with with an entourage. Watch actors our a monthly event dedicated artists downtime bar and lower east side one comedian. Kelly Bachmann called him out interstate. Interact on stage referring to him as the elephant in the room in Freddie Cougar. I didn't know we had to bring her mason rape whistles through the actress with our pretty good pretty good Eh. Somehow some members mostly men booing shut up said one person kills at group therapy for rape survivors reply. Bachmann herself was a rape survivor. Bobby and said Fuck you to wind seen before continuing with set. I'm comfortable enough to talk about my experience when I'm sitting in a room with a Mazda people supporting to suck the air out of my chest. Bachman told Buzzfeed News. News doesn't women including many of the prominent actors who have come for many prominent actor come forward with allegations of sexual assault against movie mogul Weinstein is due to stand trial in January in New York City over rape allegations Bob until a bus we knew that she had previously nightmares Weinstein and that seen him in an audience with a nightmare come to life is Kinda. NFL like an old school harvey to me having his table. Lower East side bar surrounded by actors elmo during her comedy set in which which is about sexual consent is important stare directly a Weinstein gene. I don't want to make everyone comfortable. I didn't WanNa make light of this person to make everyone feel good about it. He's frustrated by with wanting the president's had factor ability lead to perform the stand ups since they've been was going to be recorded nor that she didn't call him out further moei-salween Reject Satan Maui. I wish I had said more zoe. stuckless a twenty one year. Old Actor told buzzfeed they were they were. They were horrified after recognizing nineteen at the booth across from them. Use Them Pronoun Weinstein enter the venue using a walker so this is a he so wait so is he is. He is the because Okapi faunal. 'cause we now all of a sudden he has fucking ailments and he needs to use a walker into walker initially didn't suspect anything unusual but as but as a booth began filling up with younger act women and older men in suits. Douglas said it became clear that it was disgraceful. Hollywood mogul as a little booth filled out. His interchanging became apparent that it was who thought he was stuck list. When Bach mentioned windings president was grateful that someone had someone was acknowledging what the entire room was wishing I was sitting there? It was like surely there have been organised. Say something now. She brought it up and can't be denied hi. The show's. Mc made no mention of later a male comedian joked about boxing bringing a wising Ip address. The elven room said Andrew Be Silence Comedian visiting from Roy who in this room produce goodwill hunting because that shit was great wow What a terrible piece of shit thought this whole buffy the Shirley before performing one of the show performers as performance dimension president sites that he did not mean for his goodwill hunting cracked and support Weinstein and say it was intended playoff and remind people at Bachman earlier joke? You did a terrible job. At that came across her courage wasn't credible via DM. I didn't want to feel alone. I didn't didn't want to tread on her honestly and if he didn't want attention I was going to give him attention and father's Day. He had three times before before and said he planned to joke about where to obtain chloroform. If someone told me that it would be in poor taste I swear amount a piece of shit sounds like you are a pizza schick. That is that is in poor taste. That actually was now. That's terrible. It's not even funny. saw this video pass warranty organic bit but the to speak how that watching the male can meeting engaged with his joke upset them. That's when I thought such the anger and shame and fear bubbling gut that Simon was allowed to be in that space. That'd be laughing at the comic was able to demean. The person that went went up before him that they could not believe that support for Weinstein that have been encouraging. I mean but honestly I'll push back on this and say how can you not believe the support. The same thing happened Kate. Louis C.. CK right now is also doing like a fourteen city tour so like yeah like. I'm not not to demean This person actors Feelings or though the community before That was the Nisa something for the female comedian before them but like yeah this is like people are going to ride that. Weinstein train until Taylor falls off today. No these officially gone. They're going to do that right. So but but yeah like I don't understand I don't understand how as an actor actress you're still sitting around and you're gonna sit at a table. Harvey Weinstein exactly. Yeah I think did you watch that next Netflix. Show about the girl who was raped. No I heard about it though is really good though. It's great right but this one scene in the show where they're they're talking about this. FBI guys working on the case with them and how he cares but One of the character says something I think is reminds me of the Harvey Weinstein Story. Oy was she asked. Where's his outrage like? He's not outraged by any of this. He knows what is wrong and he can say stuff. There's no real outrage and if men were assaulted at the same clip as women there would be outraged from them and these jokes and and being funny about Weistein wouldn't be good like you do do that because you would understand why people are outraged about this behavior but since men don't care that same level outrage they can do this stuff and say oh I thought it was. You know in good taste thirty. You know what I mean. Make all these concessions while they're joking or or you know saying hello to him in a booth and not understand why the women comedians up on stage or absolutely outraged arrays. He's even in the room. It's funny you mentioned that there's a ad going around now. I think it's four underwear company. I can't remember what it is. And they have this ad where basically it's Talking about periods but all the men and boys talking about having periods and things like that and it basically makes us any argument. You're making it was like you know if if if men get got period we wouldn't we talk about this. More often is is a really good ad and I was like it was a AH data had my peer and we're looking at. Is this a trend inclusive ad or something like that and it was like that level but it's like basically if men got periods if it was was something that both men and women got then we would have more conversation about this things would be different so it was a very some of that. Caught me off guard but it goes right writing which were saying Going back to this stuff did confront Weinstein. What your name when they asked Weinstein videotape? Hey My buzzfeed. Why does he plays his table while Min while another man Nixon was hurt? Speaking of Stuccos they said the man the they said the manically winds he told them it was another business they had no right to ask. Nobody's going to anything. Wow this isn't a video filmed later posted on facebook. Nobody's really going to say anything so there was an absolutely the venue I'll get outta here. That's fine I'm happy. But nobody's GONNA say anything. I'M GONNA stay in four feet from a fucking rapists and no one is going to say anything so they were they were out of the room by a woman and a man the guy leading me up the stairs repeated just repeating due process due process to me who has a man if he worked at the bar. He did not respond. The downtown Bart has not responded to the bus request request for comment but posted a note on his facebook page. Apparently referring to us as a heckler shortly in the evening one geeky heckling another causing a determined to everyone to everyone in the attendance for several requests. Stop where ignore we commonly asked to leave the moment that deserves confront wising. I seen so the Amber Rollo a thirty one year old comedian head attendant of the show disorder friend Bachmann. She's right roller total wine thing. You're fucking Mosser. What are you doing here? Fuck you also you said one of the men are coming. Weinstein called her son in response while another woman had wisey table guided her outside. Rolo said she disappointed that Weinstein was welcoming event and that those who question is present wasn't rude and removed from the venue rate of myself. Said Rollo. I thought that everyone agreed that while he was a bad person. Other people were are questionable. He's the worst the worst. I thought we all knew then. Alexandra Liberal Libert liberty over tar the organizer Actors our Toll Buzzfeed News. The second meantime wanting to turn up to one of our events added. She doesn't have a security team rather than turn onto your weight shift to the community would address them. Walk them all walks of life in my space pats not an answer. You want to know when asked why walks of life when asked why she allow winds in the event intended to support encourage young actors actress when she had been when he's been accused of sexually assaulting interesting. There's a dozen of them Alexandra's toll buzzy opportunity them by freedom of speech communities COMEDIANS. Make Fun of him said that twenty six year old actor this one screen and people walked out which was fantastic but you guys also forced out the woman in a euphoria one woman and in one one person out before to people who confronted him when it followed state statement Saving shared on the actress. Our facebook page the ordination of opposite apologize wholeheartedly for away. The situation was handled. Yeah of course I apologize. They messed up There you guys have it. I just I don't know I'm yeah says it's disheartening to hear the got escorted escort out the only recourse at that point them out but I would leave the thing the thing we may be better for me at this point Many start taking that burden right it would. It would have more effect if they were men who came up in in and took that weight just like when we would rather have white people come up and stand up and fight when there's some racism going on on. That's how you'd be an actual ally Sydney Randall in Linden others do this work. No no no yeah all right all right lesson for we gotta hear you know what time it is grown conflict and this one is going to be a really short one is. It's not long is pretty easy as pretty short. I might even just read the headline Lygo plus released from prison prison before ending fourteen days emissions game. Yeah desperate housewife. Dr Phil Huffman was released from prison on Friday and in northern California for just under her two weeks in and and and cause a mission scandal them toward the wealthy parents will go to get their children. The top university Her her fourteen days sentenced on October Fifteenth and in Federal Correctional Institution in Dublin A low security prison for women in the San Francisco Bay area to release as part of the policy regarding in May two are set to be released on on weekends according to prison officials. I mean that's it. That's that's story. I mean just like well Gotcha right. Right she's served her hard. I guess but thirteen days. How long this is back on? TV right right talking about how how. How prison changed her? You getting some interview on the view. Maybe you'll go the Martha tour route outside Iran. Everybody Martha Stewart is a convicted Felon Vermont. I pulled out that ms of her and and and snoop by each other. And everybody's like what are these people. ooh Is convicted felon and the other. One is a rapper chick so good I the rebrand. Yeah I mean who knows who WHO's the other one the other who pleaded not guilty who might get the book thrown at her Oh you can't remember her but I doubt any of the all. These people are fucking walk. It's all right cool. Whatever I'm just I'm over it I'm over over it anyway? That's all I got a manteaux folks where they can find you and what you got coming up on your side. The People's food blog dot com people's it was critic on twitter instagram views. Coming up Master GonNa be on good a new north west. I'm beyond television the third time to a TV this year So I'm GonNa Television November twenty fifth talking about for movies. Oh Yeah saw uncles. Is that clip when it when it shows up awesome Here again. We told you what the schedule going to be like Coming out we We are moving the Arrow in and flash reviews this week to Sunday This week for me. You'll you'll get something for Dr Sleep in force variety so stay tuned for those. Who have those coming out and Yeah make sure you got subscribes check and and we're listening. We'll be back in a week. We're out of here piece