5 Burst results for "Jordan Keith Rawlings"
"jordan keith rawlings" Discussed on The Big Story
"Today's story is about a police investigation. That you won't believe is real. Why am I so confident when I say that because in this story reality is almost impossible to grasp even for the people involved? It's a story about a decades old murder but the ending if you can call it an ending came just a few years ago. It's a story about lease using tactic. That is so unusual around the world that it's known as the Canadian technique. It's a story about what happens when you are living in an alternate reality created just for you and you don't know it and that is just heart one this special two part episode. It gets even darker from there. I'm Jordan Keith. Rawlings this is the big story. Michael Linda is a contributing editor at Toronto Life. And the author of one of the strangest stories. We've read yet this year. I might go I. Why don't you start by telling US How and I guess also when in Wear Beverly Smith died. Sure so About two weeks before Christmas in Nineteen seventy-two Beverly Smith Was a twenty two year old young mother. She was married she lived in A little a brick house in a village called Raglan Ontario which is Just a little bit north of Oshawa and the ninth of December that year. She waved goodbye to her husband for the last time he worked his name's Doug and he worked at the GM Plant Shwe and She one day she Sat down at her kitchen table to write some some Christmas cards and She talked to some of her family and then sometime that evening someone went into her home. A apparently there was no forced entry. So it's likely that she knew the person and Shot her in the back of her head with a twenty two caliber bullet tell me about her body being discovered in the investigation that followed sure so dug Smith her husband Beverly's husband called in on his break at the plant. And you know he called home in the phone just coming and That alarmed him so he called across the street to two of his neighbors With whom he was friendly Man named Allendale Smith no relation to beverly and his wife Linda. And you know sort of said I'm concerned that Beverly isn't picking up the phone can can you? Can someone run on run across the street and and and see what's going on so Linda went across the street? Saab every laying on the ground and set to Doug. You need to call home right. Come home right now. they called They called the The authorities Alan Smith. He sort of worked A little bit for the humane society and he had a truck that he used For Work and he he actually brought the truck across the street into Beverly Doug's driveway to help. Illuminate for the authorities where to go and in a sort of colossal in case of bad timing. It just so happened to be the The Durham Regional Police Which was Just recently formed was their first murder investigation and it was. It was on the night of their first annual Christmas party So the officers arrive. Doug said that he could smell some booze on the officers breath and they begin their investigation. They knew that Doug would deal a little bit of pot on the side and he had about but have half dozen ounces of weed Which he later admitted to the authorities were stolen. So the motive in this case they think was that someone came to steal that that six or seven ounces of weed shot beverly in the process and they started trolling around for anyone. They they knew might have a motive. They looked at his supplier. They looked at some of his His clients And you know they opened up some wiretaps nothing really came of it and so you know that that year the case when cold for the first time how long did it stay cold It was it was sort of it was reopened a number of times over the decades Once I believe in the eighties and you know they would re interview people and nothing would really come of it. And then in the in the two thousands there was suddenly a a break in the case what had happened was that So Beverly Smith had a twin sister named Barbara. Identical twin be looked so similar that even their mother could only tell them apart by little freckle on the tip of. Beverly's knows and Barbara. You know as you can imagine her her grief. Her and her family's grief was You know was immeasurable. And she sort of stuck on the police's case to make sure that that the investigation would be cold but would not be forgotten right and so she went to the you know the the head of major crimes at the germ regional police one day and said you know. I'm losing my hope I need you to hold onto it for me. And she passed the inspector little stone with the word. Hope engraved auto and The inspector kept it by his desk and it was not long after that that there was a break in the case so they interviewed an old friend of Allendale Smith's Who said that on the day of the murder he had asked Alan if he could score him. Pot and Allen said Yeah I can get it from my neighbor and the day after the murder. Alan call this guy back and said I've got your pot for you. And he also said that Allen had a twenty two caliber rifle which we know was used in the in the murder and so the police all of a sudden are like That helpful neighbor. Who helped shine the light for US? So many years ago is all of a sudden and interesting suspect and so they interviewed. Allen's Allen's excellent now ex wife Linda. Linda admitted that Allen could have left her site very briefly on the night of the murder said that she heard this bang which she thought was a car backfiring but could have been a rifle and so later that year they charged Allendale Smith with With the second degree murder of his neighbor beverly and that's it right the stories. That's weird happened. No absolutely not. So when so when they arrested Allen he said he had nothing to do with it and when they put them in jail still at innocent man at this at this is when they put an undercover officer with him posing as another prisoner to try to elicit a confession and Alan refused. So what happened was that the police knew that Alan had since The Murderer Beverly Smith. All those years ago decades ago Alan had had a incredibly difficult life and he had a long history of mental illness and Psychiatric Care. You know so for example. He was an alcoholic who drank every day smoked weed. You know whenever he could get it took pills and coke if he could find it but you know most of all he was he he. I should say he also. He heard voices he had he had trouble. Sort of telling the difference between reality and And fiction and you know he once said that he had one of these voices that would haunt him. He had imprisoned it in a jail in scarborough and ran away from it he was diagnosed with mood disorders. And you know had had it very tenuous grip on reality but more than anything. What he really wanted more than anything was a friend. He was incredibly lonely and what he really wanted was someone to go fishing with. He loved fishing. But you know. He said he had no one to do it. With and so the prosecutors. And the and Allen's defense came to an agreement that if the were allowed to go over Alan psychiatric records from all those decades go through it and there was no confession by Alan than they would withdraw the murder charge. And so it's a huge gamble for a defendant right to to to do that. I mean you know. Can you remember everything you've said? In the course of you know thirty five years with your health professional I can't but Allan said go ahead and so they did so A warrant was issued for the police to be able to look at these records. They were remain sealed until the judge approved it all but On the way on the plane ride back from Calgary Where they collected some of these records. The police just opened up the records. Anyway and just started going through it and they turned every page and they saw his loneliness and they saw his his His inability to distinguish reality from fiction his wanting to go fishing but they never found a confession so they withdrew the murder charge but now they were sitting on this goldmine of someone else's imagination. This person that they still thought you know could be involved in this murder and so they decided to weaponize his his psychiatric records to do this incredibly controversial type of police investigation called Mr Big. This is where the story gets. Even further off the rails. So why don't you first explain sort of the concept of a Mr Big investigation? And then I'll get you to describe this. Specific instance sure so Mr big investigation. It's sometimes I've heard been referred to as the Canadian investigation because it's illegal in in a lot of other countries real Yeah AND THE FIRST MR. Big that we know of it wasn't called Mr Big happened in one thousand nine hundred one but the modern form of it arose in our seem rcmp investigations mostly in British Columbia in.
"jordan keith rawlings" Discussed on The Big Story
"Jordan Keith Rawlings and this is the big story. David Vidmar is the legislative reporter for the Saint John's telegram in Newfoundland where we head for our latest in our lay of the land series the Saint John's telegram is part of the Salt Wire Fire Network Hi David. How's it going. It is going very well. Thank you for joining us from the East Coast. How is the grand experiment of democracy going out there. Well things are I mean changes changes. The norm. I think is a is a quite frequently in Newfoundland Labrador typically. We just came out of a provincial election which is back on back on. May Sixteenth where there was this massive liberal majority where they had thirty one seats in the provincial legislature and that has cut down to twenty which gives them a one seat edge over the you know over the opposition parties and whatnot so that was a that was a big moment obviously for us out here to see that amount of seats being cut down in Atlantic Canada. Generally I mean there's been there's been I it's only Nova Oh Scotia that hasn't gone to gone to the polls fairly recently they went back in two thousand sixteen you know but but we're seeing the Greens obviously making some eat some interesting in roads and whatnot in an and in an MP and New Brunswick they didn't quite formed government but my God did they come close so you know being close to the water being close to you know relying so much a natural resources. I think is is starting to rear. Its head just a little bit here on the East Coast. What are the chances that you're provincial election earlier. This year is a microcosm of what will happen to the federal liberals in Newfoundland and Labrador which were a complete sweep last time yeah and that's always the question you know. How much can we really read it into provincial politics to federal politics. you know it's it's. It's it's not a one to one ratio. There's we'll see how that plays out but I I wrote a story. Worry about this. about you know we can have of course online that talking to pollster. Don Mills Search Area Whatnot and the way that he phrased in terms of whether or not the liberals can sweep across Atlantic on to Canada with all thirty two seats He said that there's zero percent chance that happened on October hangover twenty so couldn't really be more more definitive than that a you know there and in Newfoundland Labrador everyone is kind of pointing at Saint John's east as as really Kinda main battleground. Perhaps even the only battleground. I think the Liberals will still see some success here in Oakland lambreau because we I have never in our history sent sent no liberals. There's has always been at least one liberal. That's insane from Labrador to up to Ottawa but we've sent all seven easier as liberals at twice in our history so there might I don't to be one opportunity Lucy. you know an interesting thing about about. Saint John's is that it's a direct rematch from two thousand sixteen election Harris Yeah Yeah Yeah. It's it's a one to one Nick Whale on it is the incumbent and in two thousand fifteen he beat Jack Harris who was a he was first elected in nineteen eighty seven that he lost real quick in the in the election after that and then he was years for the as the DP leader in the province and became the d. n. p. once again. I believe in two thousand eight hundred I elected and and now they're just having another crack at it. You know in John's east. I remember Canada conventional wisdom at the time which I guess didn't turn out to be completely wise was saying that Saint John's was was the most safe seat in the country for the new Democrats on the federal scale and then you so yeah yeah there was another really tight race so at the time in two thousand fifteen Ryan cleary was was was the incumbent for the MVP going up against the shameless regan whose name we all know much more on the federal a federal thing these days so any kind of went all in on Ryan cleary and maybe kind of forgot about it was just a little bit but this around it does not look like they are forgetting about checkers. You know Jagmeet facing was here before the election was even called so they really seem to be kind of investing there so you know in this province if any district is going to not be liberal liberal by the time October twenty first. It's probably John's east but you know nick. Whale is not going to go down without a fight no question about that so what makes Newfoundland and Labrador because we're doing this with all of the provinces what makes Newfoundland Labrador different from the other Atlantic provinces first of all but from from voters and the rest of the country to the biggest thing for us is that most of the people who live in Newfoundland Labrador live on the island of Newfoundland and most of us who live in Newfoundland live on kind of the northeast avalon which which is you know I'm I'm speaking to you from Saint John's right now which is really about as like it. If you're going to look at what the geography tells you it's as though everyone in on the island roofing like gathered as far away from mainland Canada as humanly possible which is essential for something but yeah which you know we'll we'll get back to that one but the fact that we are such big island really doesn't make us unique. I guess be is obviously an island is in the it's in the name but we you know we really are massive expensive land with a with a with a relatively small population by five hundred twenty five thousand people according in the two thousand sixteen sentences counter counted here and one particular thing that makes us unique across the country is that that population is going down the demographics of Newfoundland Labrador. We are getting older faster than anybody else. I believe that the the average population or the average age of newfoundlander right now is like forty six years old and by twenty forty. That's GonNa that's GONNA go up to above above fifty yeah. It's you know so we're getting older and the fertility rate is is is downward. We're dying faster than we are being born for one thing and then on top of that to oil downturn turn in say twenty two thousand fourteen twenty fifty and really really hit this province hard we in the last provincial budgets and twenty eighteen. We made a billion dollars off oil and gas. Ask and you know that's that's all guests are inter. Inter the royalties one for the government you know and that's on a pretty average price of oil. You Know Beckon Twenty before early two thousand twelve twenty fourteen or something like that. was you know we're looking at over one hundred dollars for a barrel also so my God we had money and now we don't so we have people people who are literally dying and not being replaced and people are leaving so the demographic challenges for Newfoundland Labrador really what's it's top of mind. I think that at this point. How does that impact what voters want from their government. What are they looking for right. Now that other younger younger more prosperous provinces might not well. This is a maybe a little bit of Jason here but but but but the main thing that we're looking for I think right now is is support from the federal government when it comes to Muskrat falls because that's the other thing that makes particularly unique in the country you know we talk about large hydroelectric dams you. I heard a sightsee and whatnot but but Muskrat falls was started by the provincial government or sanctioned in two thousand ten and at the time that the the sanction to the to the population or the the number that was put out there for the cost was six point two billion dollars. Not You know not a small chunk of change at the time for a prophet to five hundred thousand people now. It's twelve point seven billion dollars and there's a real risk that electricity bills in this province are going to double as a result of this and you you know the provincial government people were trying to work in trying to figure out how to how to prevent that from happening and one of the direct ask that. I think it was a little while ago. The finance minister just made a direct call just before the election actually the finance minister. Tom Osborne made a direct call to all party. Leaders saying we need money. We need about two hundred million dollars a year from the federal government a direct federal subsidy to Newfoundland Labrador's power bills in addition to about another half billion dollars annually that the that the province is going to have to come up with on its own court to try to to try to keep electricity rates down but but you know we need a commitment of two hundred million dollars.
"jordan keith rawlings" Discussed on The Big Story
"So I have this fan and my window. That's supposed to bring the air in if it's a bit cooler outside it makes a huge difference if it's not cooler outside. It's really just blowing in more hot air. The heat has a weird way of making you feel really sleepy but also nauseous so like for instance on Friday. When I went home it was really hot and I was really tired and I take a nap and I just kind of kept waking up from the snap feeling really sick but tired and I was like in a daze days for like an hour and eventually just had to get up and take a freezing cold shower and even that freezing cold shower didn't feel cold because I was so hot everything inside of me was just like needed to be cooled down? What did you end up doing? I I did not stay home that weekend. My boyfriend's place through air conditioning. It's usually what they do or my parents lease warnings blanket areas of Ontario Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador this hour for even in Canada is being blamed for at least seventy deaths or it is going to be muggy tonight tomorrow tomorrow night Monday Monday. Officials are cautioning those especially vulnerable to extreme heat to be extra careful. I'm lucky I have air-conditioning. It's included in my condo fees. I can use as much of it as I want and believe me. I do even though it's making the problem worse but people who don't have air conditioning people like our producer there beside who you heard earlier I don't even I know how the live some of these days and Claire is a healthy young and she can't live and her apartment when the he gets really bad there are thousands of less healthy people with the same problem. A lot of those people are isolated Amerian real danger every time the temperature spikes and you probably knew this one was coming but it's also happening more frequently much more frequently solutions to climate change are nice to think about and they are worth chasing. They don't matter here. A certain amount of temperature increase is already baked into this scenario so even if we magic our way out of this hell tomorrow we're still going to have to live with heat. What does that due to our bodies? And what do we do about that. How do we prepare individually? But how do we prepare our infrastructure or social. Programs are public policy to deal with a world where it's going to be a lot hotter and humans are ready for Jordan Keith Rawlings and this is the big story. Dr Blair felt the head of the intact center on climate adaptation of the University of Waterloo Waterloo. I Blair. Thanks for joining us well. Thanks for having me so I because <hes> I think maybe we don't quantify at the right way. Sometimes what is a heatwave and how do we get this description right technically yeah there is.
Why impaired boating includes basically everything now
"The differently questions I'm about to ask our silly but the reason I'm asking them will become clear during today's episode so have you ever had a beer while paddling a canoe what about drinking and a Kayak what about cracking a cold one while lounging in your nearest lake on an inflatable mattress for those of US lucky enough to have cottages or cabins and that's kind of a summer weekend ritual and although you know by now or at least you really should you can't operate a motorboat after having a couple. A canoe is different right or at the very least a floating lounger certainly is right. Maybe right now it depends on the cops and the courts the judge a recent conviction that came about after a tragedy has now opened the door for just about anything involving watercraft and alcohol from canoes is to those loungers two pool noodles technically and yes an impaired boating conviction will cost you your driver's license and leave you with a permanent criminal record so yeah was questions not so silly anymore Jordan Keith Rawlings. This is the big story week. One of our Friday cottage in-cabin Specials Ryan Platt is an Ottawa based reporter with the National Post Brian. Hello why don't you start by <hes> just telling me because I hadn't seen it until the ruling came down the story of David Cillers and how all this began so this started in April twenty seventeen it was was originally a police call just about somebody who seemed to be in distress on a freeway ramp in Ontario's cottage country so it's near <unk> brace bridge in the Muskoka region of Ontario and when the police arrived the sky was shivering cold hold and he had no shoes on and he was soaking wet. It was just barely above zero that day and what eventually the police figured out from talking to him was he had been out on a canoe in the river. The canoe had tipped and a boy a young boy eight years old had been <hes> carried away on the river and they were very close to a waterfall and he went over as it turned out he went over the waterfall so the police quickly conducted a search found the young boy who was who was already dead in the water by that point and the police then turn to the question of intoxication breathalysed David Sellers who was thirty seven years old at the time he was over the legal limit and so he was charged with impaired operation of a vessel Russell and this ended up becoming the first case ever to go to court <hes> at least that anybody can find in any court records is the first ever time cases gone to court to test whether a canoe counts as a vessel in our impaired driving laws because doesn't tell this boats have counted on impaired driving laws since the nineteen sixty one but until this point had all been motorized boats powerboats and things like that this was the first time that edit ever been tried on a canoe and so the judge had to rule on whether canoe who counted and he ultimately ruled yes so tell me <hes> how the police have traditionally dealt with incidents like these if this had never been tested in court until now I think it really depends on the police force in the part of the country but in Ontario for whatever reason. Season Ontario police have been more likely this includes both the Ontario provincial police and I believe also the regional police forces in the G._T._A.. The Greater Toronto area so the Peel region police and I think even the Toronto Police have also taken in the stands but especially the Ontario provincial police who patrol cottage country and much of the Great Lakes areas and a lot of waterfronts in Ontario have long taken the stance that because vessel is not defined in the criminal code which the whole issue here. It's just been a unclear term for the decades that it's been in the criminal code. Ontario provincial police have long taken the view that canoes and Kayaks and paddleboats all count as a vessel but prosecute prosecute so then they have laid charges before we know I talked to <hes> -Tario police <hes> marine unit coordinator so in in coordinates a lot of the marine enforcement activities that they do. He said he knows that they charged three people who in twenty eleven but the prosecutors withdrew the charges because they didn't think there was a reasonable chance of conviction in court so basically police have been trying to make this happen for a while but prosecutors felt that they didn't have a very good chance of a conviction court in some ways. I think they he may have been waiting for the right case to come along because if you're looking to set a legal precedent you want what's called a good set of facts and so a case where an eight year old boy died because the person operating the canoe with him <hes> was intoxicated. That's the kind of case I think prosecutors decided this is a serious enough case that we're willing to take it to court so what had to happen. <hes> in the months between when the police investigated and decided to lay the charges and until it came in front of a judge for a ruling what was interesting was there was a parliamentary bill that was being debated kind of alongside this as a criminal case was was playing out in fact so Cillers was charged in April twenty seventeen and it was in April two thousand seventeen at the same time the government introduced an impaired driving bill bill c forty six this hiding of the bill was totally coincidental. It was actually meant to coincide with the introduction of their bill to legalize marijuana so the same time the government legalizing marijuana it wanted to make sure that it was taking public safety very seriously so it introduced an impaired driving bill to go with it but what's interesting is that the bill c forty six contained all kinds of changes to impaired driving laws including to allow police to start checking for marijuana at the side of the road but it also looked to fix up a bunch of areas of the law and one of the areas that it looked to fix up. Was this long-standing issue that there's no definition of what a vessel is so at the same time that you had this precedent setting in case potentially coming forward to court because prosecutors had decided to go forward with charges against Mister Solarz you had parliament with a bill where the Justice Department was proposing. They said they're information was that prosecutors. Don't go forward with this charge in so they were proposing to clarify the definition of vessel to say doesn't count as anything that's powered exclusively by muscle power which is basically to say that if you're just paddling you're not counted impaired driving loss so so you had this bill that was going to clear up this point at the same time that this case had just been started in M._p.'s were ultimately convinced. This was about six months later they there was protests. They heard about this case for one thing. which I do think played a role they also so how protests from safe boating advocates sane? We are are mass GINA's at any. If you're intoxicated you shouldn't go out on the water and so this bills a problem for us. If you're saying paddlers don't count M._p.'s were convinced by that. They took that clause. <unk> out of the bill and so the part that would have cleared up what a vessel council has was taken out of the bill and so the definition remained bag which meant the judge had to rule on it and so what did the judge rule uh specifically the judge it. There's an inch so there there was a separate ruling on this aspect of the case it came out in November twenty eighteen and the judge had to hid invited arguments for both sides from the crown about why canoe should counting are impaired driving laws and from the the defense about why it shouldn't and the judge had to because like it's just has vessels in the criminal code. It doesn't say what a vessel is and so the judge had to look through dictionary definitions through legal definitions from from other countries and the two things though that I think were the most <hes> influential in the judge is thinking was Howard vessels treated in other law laws in Canada so not the criminal code but like marine regulations said <hes> are based on <hes> customs regulations and things like that and also what happened at parliament because parliament the M._p.'s had the chance to remove paddling and chose not to and so based on those two factors the the judge ruled that essentially if you can use it to navigate on a waterway it's a vessel and <hes> so that would mean canoes count and it would also potentially include a lot of other things but particularly uh-huh kayaks and rowboats and things like that so that was a separate ruling and the trial had still not completed then which back came recently exactly so the crux of this is that slurs was charged with basically really two types of offenses the four charges and total but the two types of offenses were impaired driving offenses and then a criminal negligence causing death charge and so if the judge had ruled that canoes don't count the criminal negligence the charge would have gone forward but the other charges couldn't have because they were impaired driving offenses he ended up getting convicted of all four and so when this was being debated in parliament and justice officials were explaining why they were going to paneling out of impaired. We're driving charges. They said our understanding is that prosecutors. Don't use these charges anyway but even so at criminal negligence. Herge is is seems like the appropriate charge to us in a case where somebody is intoxicated about and causes either bodily godly harm or death the thing about an a negligent criminal negligence charge is that it there's a high burden on the crown to prove it. They have to prove that somebody was acting not just carelessly but in a marked departure from how a reasonable person person would act in those circumstances and recklessly endangered somebody's life and so it's not just carelessness. It's criminal action and in this case of course they were I think based on following the case they were easily easily able able to meet that threshold to say that he acted in a criminally negligent way and that's why this eight year old boy died the impaired driving charge though which he was also convicted of it's much easier for prosecutors to get that conviction because it it's the act it's not whether you endanger somebody's life or not it's it's actually simply the act of paddling while you're drunk or stoned that becomes illegal and once they've got the breathalyzer tests and they can show you were indeed paddling or controlling the canoe in any way. You're basically cooked. That is the illegal act right there unless you can find some kind of procedural error which defense lawyers are very good at doing but it is the reason why this is. I think an interesting legal conundrum is because impaired driving laws are extremely serious laws and have gotten it seems like almost every year governments are are increasing the penalties around them but they're meant. They're designed for motorized vehicles. That's why they're so serious because they endanger the public and so now if you have this applied to paddlers. Are we really saying that you are guilty of this very very serious criminal offence just for paddling we'll in there are mandatory minimums. I mean maybe not specifically but acceptable mandatory minimums minimums for any <hes> impaired driving conviction right Yup. It's <hes> so there's a judge's only have a certain amount of discretion under these laws because there are mandatory minimums and and having you know report a lot on the justice system in Ottawa and and <hes> you know legislation that would amend the Criminal Code. I personally don't believe that mandatory minimums unimpaired driving are ever going away. I think that this is one of the mandatory minimums that the government will always keep and and so it's a mandatory minimum fine for if it's just a basic I defense and you're driving of it's at least a thousand dollars. It might even be more than that. That's on a first offense on the second offense you quickly get into mandatory jail time and of course if there's any kind of bodily harm or death involved then jail time is almost given but this is the thing about impaired driving is that you don't even have to hurt anybody. If you get caught doing it. That's the criminal offense and so we now in the situation where even just paddling Adalina canoe or Kayak or almost anything else that you can use on the water you are subject to all these these mandatory minimum sentences and you don't even have to have heard anybody and so given the conviction and given the fluid the definition of vessel. What does this precedent actually opened the door for because I know I know paddlers and you could make a case for canoeing with children or row boating with children and putting people at serious risk of bodily harm but there are all sorts of other other vessels out there that I would have never imagined counting under this law yes and so the first thing that needs to be said here is that this was a decision of Ontario called the Ontario Court of Justice so it's the Lower Court Ontario okay with means it's not it's not a binding finding decision on other courts that doesn't Happen Front for the province of Ontario until it goes to a higher court such as the Ontario Court of Appeal and it wouldn't happen even for it wouldn't be binding on other provinces until the Supreme Court of Canada ruled on it so we may eventually get to that point but at this point a if a case comes to a different judge that judges
"jordan keith rawlings" Discussed on The Big Story
"There is a terrifying thing that happens to our technology in an abusive relationship, all those devices that people use in the course of their everyday lives from home security cameras to internet search histories to GPS data and find my phone features those become not useful information or helpful tack, but potential weapons, an abuser and the smartphone is potentially the worst of all the latest report from citizen lab, a Canadian research center calls it the predator in your pocket, and the organization has issued a warning about what's known as Stocker wear. And how helpful it can be facilitating cases of technology fueled violence and abuse. So what is stock wear. How easy is it for an abuser to install it on a victim's phone? How can you tell if it's been installed on yours, what options do the police, and the courts have to protect victims and how? How are these programs able to be sold on apps stores, when they are marketed specifically at people looking to keep watch over their partners without their knowledge? Jordan, Keith Rawlings. And this is the big story, Kate Robertson is a research fellow with citizen lab and also a criminal player for coming and Kate as for having me, can you start by explaining what is Stocker wear? What does the term referred? Well, it's my easiest to understand soccer wears a spectrum of different types.