20 Episode results for "Jordan Hall"

Game B in a Silicon Valley Context with Jordan Hall

Venture Stories

1:27:05 hr | 1 year ago

Game B in a Silicon Valley Context with Jordan Hall

"Hey everybody it's Eric. Torbert co-founder Partner village global aid network driven venture firm and this is your stories a podcast ask covering topics relating to tech business with world leading experts. Hey everybody welcome to another episode. Adventure stories vote global. I'm here today with special guests. Jordan Hall Georgia's founder of Neuro hacker collective as is one of the thinkers behind gained be since making web and as the other exciting ideas that are emerging in the mainstream right now Jordan welcome to the podcast thank you. It's it's it's GonNa be fun. I think I've been interested in seeing the things you've thrown out over the past little bit since we first degree dead this chat and notice it perfectly frank like the diversity of objects now you're putting out there that I've never heard of before and then when I delved into him as an order these links for so my own sense web is clearly missing stuff totally and some of those where sovereign individual Glenn Wells radical markets liberal radicalism and Robert Rights a non zero which the buying them so I just let's start with some introduction of the audience who may not be familiar. If you were to characterize the work you've you've done since the reading the writing the thinking if you were to try to find sort of the underlying thread what is the interest that that threads the work you've gotten into since since you were building companies hazard question so I think we can actually connected to that so the thing was the the most Jarrah to be perfectly frank to kind of kicked me into action was that there was something about the nature of the way that being successful in building companies ended ended up being distinctly unsatisfied and most notable in the way that there is almost inevitable breaking faith with the community of people whose it does hit mentally been the same that for a long time. You're connected with something to happen that as a company a corporation becomes more successful. It has weird weird almost incessantly to break Google's snippet kissing point that if they will land with everybody including employees and that was just individual like mocked in my eye or splinter in my mind is a problem that I was chewing on and I tried to figure out how to resolve that problem in the in the same time so we're talking about. It doesn't seven two thousand eight two thousand nine. I also happen to find myself in two contexts one context was because I actually had now both time and resources I interacting with lots and lots of different very interesting. People who had unique insights into diverse aspects of reality ranging from folks like Eric Weinstein Women that timeframe postings about aw say differential geometry physics and lots of stuff that as an example to people with expertise in say a culture evolution of computer science sort Santa Fe institute or pulled up lightboxes stuff there and then of course we had the financial crisis that for Berry self serving reasons I paid a lot of attention to in that timeframe and so these three elements kind of played with each other and led me into a process where I found myself just kind of pulling on the threat a sweater of reality and noticing that hey I could pull on it could ask questions of somebody who just really knew a particular domain and realized that most of it was understood stood in world in that domain wasn't actually literally with the people who are at the deepest experts in it. Stop was the backs of their domain and that most of what is I suppose Robert consensus reality was not particularly real and increasingly unstable and that this was tied and things that that I cared about myself quite deeply could save for example at this point the world that my children are going to be going to be growing up into you can't just double clicking on that so it's almost like a the thing that got into being an entrepreneur in the first place is like walking into blockbuster video realizing his socks could be better and then the same like my kids elementary school but recognizing recognize the to do a better. You can't just be asked racing after really think about. What does it really mean to really better so like if you think about education reform is an example and you say happened out of the back of your mind the whole discipline complex system science yet this initiative a basin of attraction and you're like oh well almost every effort to make education better fails because is education deep basins of attraction and all these different ostensibly we separate system dynamics for example the way the sat drives choice choice making all the way down to middle school and links up to college which links to getting a job in work which isn't necessary part of the educational system but it's so fundamentally part of the attractor actor dynamics that you can't do without the right to recognize that the whole web that's connected if you? WanNa move a little bit so this is the nuts thing inside a report on on wife wants. I just I'm one of those people for whom to solve a problem means to solve it in a way that ultimate resolve for everybody forever. You know you don't you don't solve the problem. If you write the software. That's just solved the problem complete as just dot. It's now you just put it in code. Repository people get access that kind of a mindset mindset sort of looked at my kids. Elementary School just kept looking regular guy. This fucked up fifty different ways to including mentioning be at school full. Stop for me to solve that problem okay. What does it really mean to truly solve that problem categorically and that ended up opening a can of words. I WANNA get yours but won't round that thread. There shouldn't be a school which would be is that okay. That's a good question and it's actually again actually requires a big can of worse so let me step back a little bit and take a look at so when we talk about the notion of school we should be aware of the fact we're actually dealing with a bunch of different things that are over that it was called different vectors vectors of forces so for example the relatively unconscious which is a relatively unintentionally for most people drifting into the dual income. I am household that began in the sixties and seventies abandoned accelerated enormous to eighties nineties had a real shift in the nature of the degree Jewish school is now also curing during a certain load as daycare answered mode as parenting because parents have less time to this is a piece as image drew the degree to which school is both with functioning as a daycare just occupying kids times during the day and at least ostensibly as a mechanism to cultivate increased capacity and and as a mechanism to train them how to participate in just the society we live in and then there's just add another which is some kind of curatorial filtering mechanism in service missile the employment sector as we've all these different debtors that are coordinated at the same location so serve different masters by the way and poorly so step back. Is it realistic to think about how we could actually decouple these and resolve each one of these in a way which is better is there a system designed the takes each one of these pieces and is able to hold each one in a more natural and more wholesome way within the answering more interested yes but it does actually acquire system designed to just make a tinkering change here because you'll notice that was it turns out you were solving problems say in Labor Space Space to get them better jobs space but the values of daycare space are actually righty their attention over time fill in the blank so so yes. The answer is yes. You can do something but requires that you do some crazy shit which is why ended up with the whole game making be problem. it is my considered perspective that there are ameliorative things that can be done in the context of the world that we live in and this probably one or two we. McCall system upgrades we could roll out but that now after two things on the one hand these will be relatively minor in the context of what is more broadly possible and in fact ultimately necessary and to be relatively short-lived for reasons that I can go into like but they will. They're half light will be not as long as you as previous upgrades have had so that from my perspective. This ends up being mostly transition so there's a way I've articulated that is the sort of gaming does a tradition and it is gaming and so we can focus in all three can focusing game eight in entirely sort of palliative care here. How do we do less harm in the context of game at or could be strategic. Had We unwind the degree which game is actually coercively controlling the choice making an energy allocation of the of the world or you could do design in transition expes. How do we actually do system upgrades that are quite possible now in are actually better in a meaningful way. There's lots and lots of possibilities for doing that but recognizing very conscious they were doing something that probably won't last more than a generation and a half org redesigning game vs base which is okay. What is a place we could move through could actually get a global like qualitative upgrade across all these different areas of human needs which happens to be also attributed. BP because the context requires that level of upgrade I like the word doing a few things when we're limiting examples with with education and we're also getting hat sort of the differences between gay the transition engage be and now I want to zoom out and for for listeners for whom those terms are new. I want to help. crystallize a crystallized some of them so of another way of asking it could be. Hey you're an entrepreneur just like a lot of our audience a- and still are what are some of the Aha moments that you had over the last decade of Hay this differently different or or put another way for people able to really understand what game is and what game he is with something that would would they really need to understand. Oh Nice. I like that frame. I think that's a really nice. I'm a I appreciate the notion that we're actually speaking with people who aren't preneurs on well. I will be disparaging but the certain Classes Look Valley Allie entrepreneur who right now I would like to disparage formerly and there's a whole group of people who would say our agenda or their intention incapacities oriented towards just having a sense of ration- and was the term was Caesar Critique for what damage it remember intending to do big things like moonshot shot. They're willing to throw themselves onto the under the gears of Big West. That's that's nice to be having that conversation. So does the biggest. Aha moment in it. Retrospectively actively. It's expected is predictable. You know let's take the phrase that has been put into the mouth of of injuries which I think was actually said earlier and better but he coined coined. The phrase software is eating the world wealth okay. Let's take that seriously and first of all is just double click on software instated softwares station but more fundamental class but that will fundamental classes eating the world. What does it mean to eat the world well it. It doesn't mean stopping at newspapers for sure we've already seen it blew past newspapers tapers. What is the actual Lebanon that limit on that. Is Literally the fabric of reality down to the quantum level. Okay what the fuck is that will it means is. We're not there yet. We're not down to the level worse. authories literally eating advocate quantum level for somewhere between newspapers in that but two points while we're somewhere was to begin to sense where byard there too. It seems like it's kind of occur and to the point where we are and where we will be you actually have to be doing a little bit Wayne Gretzky action to get ahead of the where the PUCK is GonNa be on where where we're GONNA be so for example you know. Was it ten years ago. When I was really thinking about this stuff intensely the notion ocean that money the that fundamental piece of the fabric of the nation state was about to be eaten by software or at least was going to begin the process be the software was laughable. No fucking wet bulb phase straight up stone phase. No questions asked laughable insane and now sort of trivial right. It's funny in my life. The degree to which things have moved from impossible to trivial in like within a timeframe that is a yawn like a long span. Dan well a decade from impossible driven of we in in a in a weekend essentially should went off near took. Some heavy drugs came back and bring them. Bam now money's just software. How crazy was that so that's like devil insight right there? One is where are we and the other is the pace at which those things that seem to be the fabric of reality because if you take for granted become fluid and eventually may become vaporous so okay so we're at a point where for example the the the stuff that was at what I would call. The social layer actually cut back a second. Does this bottle of articulate on youtube but I can do it quickly. It's useful. It is so twice to the first time is this just started the top. You've got a four layer model. The top layer would be finance so symbolic representations nations of economy then got economy. The real economy capital Labor people talented skills. Things are low that got society so they've got the political system legal system dress address institutional structures that we use to stuff so this is now the institutional structures that run relatively unconsciously to go about actually crossing crossing the mechanics of society to be things like the monetary system as a system the legal system the political system the juridical all this construct the educational systems below that level is the cultural level and this is the even offered more unconscious characteristics risks that are associated with things like deep axiomatic assumptions of what it means to be in group out group. Basil values that more or less are assumed to be shared across the entire field so that we can actually move into coordination space pretty quickly cultural life will that other ways the biological there and the Galway data at the center of the Earth again but the now. I said I was going to destroy it. I just did one kind of from the financial down and then just recognize that you can check this out of fear so did it is like a slice of cake slice slice through this fear that I can have other things at the surface level besides finance right now. He's GonNa focus on that because it's concrete music so if we say that software is eating the world can either from the outside in actually I think I've talked about this on video for draper university. So if anybody's interested I think actually did hope on that and we can time. It's okay as it's moving from the outside in can look at where it is progressive notice where it's whereas penetrating and in the past decade. It's penetrated straight through in shoes social. There were hitting things like money and governance and law like a theory of smart contracts like these things are now the beginning the process there were in the early early stages for those of us who are old enough to have lived through say dialup modems and build your own. PC's all with where we are the point where things are being done by guys ascribing beards and pizzas stains on their tee shirts to the point where it's a billion dollar company. You know you can kind of connect the dots it's not that hard to get ride. The S curve took took direct so were somewhere around this point of the esker in that face an probably not going to be happening so that's an element which just a up all these things around say the nation state for example the Westphalian political consensus is now moving into the liquid stage is about to be consumed and also also already noticing in the past say five years. The cultural face is now in that process and this is what I was largely writing about so. MSA's around situation assessment the trump election breakfasts and things like that is recognized cultural phases now in the software Gregor and to some extent things like crisper whisper pay a moment to recognize. I that notion the suffers eating the world needs to be taken dead seriously. The second is what's a Meta Meta concept of actually. What do you do when things are moving into that level of change Is there a wage actually orient your choice making that his resilient to the context itself itself being moving from solid liquid to guess quickly in your in the time horizon if you're on planning Barbara for example so if facebook's Komo transformation was move fast and break from for move fast and break things move slow and build infra and we can talk about how satisfying or not satisfying that is what is the software as the world's transformation into something more sustainable version about what I hear from you on gay is some version of what guy you here won't get you there. The facebook move as get your certain elements now. You need to do something different. You know we needed a game to a certain element. Now needs to something different yeah. That's that's a the You could say that about game. This game got us. Here is not gonNA get us there. Then we have to ask the question. What is what is. This would is gay if you if you don't want to if you want they use that to get to the next place you have to be careful. What is that to the answer to your questions very profound in court but it's something along the lines of how do we actually become capable as individuals in the ultras groups of individuals that those two moves important of having the the list issues determines terms of not very good but they're not terrible the intelligence. I'm here come invoke ver- vacancies definitions because his definition in Israel definition of rationality is stressed the rationality capable of having the level of rationality necessary to guide of design and implementation of the total field of the objects notice software advocate bigger concept in soccer using that as a symbol representations presentation so how do we become capable as individuals and as groups of having enough rationality to guide the design and implementation Asian of the totality of the oxygen software so as to deliver on something that is in fact actually sustainable at all over. YOU'RE A in this turns out to be an indefinite period of top can go to that last piece because it turns out to be quite a challenging conceptual landscape to walk into you but it's something like a under conditions of accelerating change. Things have to be awfully time at variant if that makes any sense and while we're I don't DEF- defining the terms for for what we do our best to crystallize three one so what is the best way you explain whether it's a metaphor analogy analogy or for you know technologist listening investors what is game as they can better understand it so that they can zoom out. If we're if we're going to say the thing we're not doing what is yeah. Let's give me challenged for everybody every single class you just mentioned so. I'm going to speak to you not as an investor but as a biological being happens to be in the world and then allied with be recognize recognize that distinction is a distinction. It's real so there's two ways of saying that I think are generally helpful. One way is it's literally everything the human beings he's not everything but ninety nine point nine nine seven percent of everything human beings have been doing to design our world for about the past thirty thousand years so it's not a small small thing. It's a big thing it covers a huge territory so it's include the totality of the agricultural revolution the industrial revolution all variations theme so so that unions game Azziz Eisenhower's Americans are all gays stanchions. Okay so that's one way of putting it kind of a historical experiential conceptually it seems to be mostly entire mostly around the application of the tools and methodologies of complicatedness to manage complex and we can really double click on that if you'd like but these are formal concepts that have been refined nicely with the plastic half of the philosophy lost via science here. Can you explain it a little bit so here. I'll reference alesia Guerrero aunt. Dave Snowden spins the personal actually she learned concepts from directly and of course have dealt into enormously but the basic framework assist divide the world is a two by it's divided into four but I'll just do to make it simpler on the right hand side washy too complicated I because we're as humans quietly with complicated and a complicated systems assistant at the end of the day is finite and bounded at which means that for example a number of in the causal causation calls relationships are ex livable. It may not in fact be explicit. They are at least in in principle explicable. You can identify a causal relationship between the units which is to say they are not a seven forty seven and assailants ship and the game of TIC TAC to are all all a relatively complicated snowden makes a distinction between simple uncomplicated and epistemological which is to stay within the context of your intelligence. If it's inside the boundaries of your intelligence eligible simple it's outside the boundaries is complicated so tic TAC two. It's simple go as complicated or at least chest is complicated. I think goes also complicated at enough about to say that with precision position and so one of the things about appointment for seven is that in principle I can take the whole thing apart all the way down to components and reassemble it and it's a steps as algorithms steps APPs like I could run a software program in public do that whole thing and it would work and I can affect point two particular component into ask. Was that about it can you. You can tell me they would do brick of. It's simple. It's simple. It's real easy. It's complicated. We have to get a whole crew of people to be able to handle the the complicatedness That's complicated complexity. Complexity is literally all wrestler Universe Right. It's it's reality as it really is and some of the things about complexity are that it's not a finite or bounded an conversation is strictly indeterminable meaning that you cannot actually identified the causal the we call the efficient cause of any given event and you can't precisely identify the specific effects of any given costs right so there's some notions causation going on but it's it's more than just like hard to figure out is somewhere in the zone of indeterminate. There's something about the inability to actually estimate at all that is intrinsic to the nature system and has evolved at this nursing of not finding unbounded means that it's the ball at the qualitative characteristics of the space literally Sir nominated did not exist at all in universe keep fucking popping up and changing the entire category to gain by the way at the microcosmic scale all the way up to the macrocosm Gasa so sometimes just the we might call mutations to changes in the characteristics on the interior of some complex system. do generally call emergencies which might be the emergence of entirely new quantitive system so you see it for example. I've got hydrogen helium and gravity and all of a sudden Annetta fucking newer. I've got a star. There's a point at which that didn't was the cases when it which was right and prior to the existence of star in reality won unofficial logical point might say yeah that was something that was possible reality but it was an actual reality but any event if you're sitting there as observer watching it the things that can happen in reality. It just really really changed a lot like for example you could have planets with Earth's Zeph this like the difference between the two and there's actually a really interesting history of the relationship between between the two because if you don't know if you know the the history of non linear and complex and often equilibriums related fascinating space of time where up until the sixties or so even with the categories of thought it's fascinating actress because so much of life is in the complex to make the most of the things we care about the complex likes to me but because Newton so good at actually doing useful stop like building cannonballs that we had this weird like centuries-long Myopia. We actually began to think of reality as only that portion of reality the linear science science could build engineering out so we kind of like sort of looked at say biology in evolution in sort of like ignore that for now. Let's let's is focused on. Say Trains does really kill it. We can build faster trains at that'll that'll give me later giving rich or powerful Ignore this problem which seems quite intractable and maybe put it in the epistemological category. I will figure it out tomorrow. And then of course the turnout is as the the the science begin to merge in the sixties and seventies really ramp to the eighties. Oh Shit with forgot almost everything that matters is in other domain which is strictly not linear for example and so none of that science can apply but we can actually the scientific about it we can actually couldn't entirely domain of science or many extra distinct domains of scientist and bring a lot more reality in to our consideration so so gay is is this really interesting problematic of against the whole newtonian stories interesting example of how problematic shows up that human beings can use semantic rationality language and some finite set of symbolic objects that are in a logical each other to zip line and collaborate. That's like the thing that we really figured out how to do well and it's great because it can be scaled sector. That could write shit down. You can read it at the instructions. Are The literature you then you can execute on on that plant can criticize write it down. You can execute on that schematic. Nabil's collaboration or coordination positives did very strong so the use deployment and refinement of complicatedness has been like a massive like is the mother of all inventions is the birthplace of techno Nokia. Ah in general is literally the Logie of technique and so it's like wow powerful cool leads to all kinds of stuff that's gaming and that we've reached the end of that instead of nested s curves that our technology in general as reaching the end of the bed s curve of technical gear games ritual point where its boundary conditions are fast fast approaching for wide variety of different reasons and this poses the what might else be and that's incense was real inquiry game was like more mortga designed space what is designed space that is not gay an adequate to be able to resolve the various problems that we can identify design constraints any viable game be like is actually in principle capable of managing the software in the world. That's like that's one design constraints as you spend time in that design speech you can actually begin we can get some real interesting answers the question but that's the distinction by actually literally theoretical distinction between a concrete definition of assistive designed toolkit gay all the things that it can be would it's where it's headed and then a sort of Meta's designed document of this sort of thing muscle click for to be a meaningful NFL endeavor at all and and Elena description I want to zoom out to talk about something you took an earlier which is somewhat of a frustration. I read the reviews about about your some element of of the Silk Valley Entrepreneur sect. Let's get into that sort of criticism or or or wish for change. There is a problem that it takes sophomores eating the world's in very seriously without fully thinking about or even understanding the repercussions they are good into what you wish the Selena entrepreneur you're frustrated with understood better nice all right so I'm going to bring out my but pitchforks yeah tortoise so let's start chart. I will start at the top and heroin vote the patron saints of Steve Jobs Bill Gates mimic a proposal on omitted proposition dishes the proposition to make that there is a vastly more sacred in meaningful thing that that archetype is intended for Emma that extra to the history of biological evolution so the proposition open places that way way back before gay may actually human species which is obligate band we are we are people in groups in family groups kin groups. We hit on a particular solution. The Division of Labor is coded into us in a meaningful level with genetic genetic. I'm not quite sure but there's something about different. People are actually designed for different aspects of being humid in in coordination with each other and in that I'm proposing and I've had proposed for one of time that it should have been thrown back in my face was way off so I'm going to say that it feels like reality is saying give me a nod here. If there's a particular typology apology I'm Gonna I'm GonNa just cultish demonic typology to invoke something the biltmore too. It's also showed the the poet the artists visionary but also also particular flavor of Entrepreneurs Steve Jobs is is a member of that typology and this particular typology is responsible for insight is responsible for actually being the SYS Admin of the source code of culture and that's a that's a sacred role right culture generally runs as your coat and people interact with that just kind of works okay and it probably has self modifying elements built into it but at the end of the day sometimes assisted ed minute to come in and do a major update or a patch or sometimes even a completely boot depending on the context right so if you're running Eskimo code and it turns turns out that for whatever reason you're going to need to migrate down to the Sahara your sister actions do comprehensive system redesign execunet expand bringing a whole bunch of other folks folks that typology building entire suffer architecture group a redesign your cultural deep deep deep goat and then you've got the works and then you're back in mechanisms right so I'm GonNa say that that's the thing saying the ultimate were holding entrust really powerful stuff that comes out of this model by the way which is the ability permission to actually generate bespoke protocols for communication and the capacity to do it. Many people critique take me for example for speaking with it sounds really weird both in terms of tone and in terms of vocabulary what noses that some people. It sounds very natural. They actually begin to nod their heads in the back of me with their variation Dolphin speaking of that I can understand what they're saying. Something really powerful happens and I think it's kind of part of this day that we're supposed to be doing something because it's time for a pretty significant system upgrade and that's what we're supposed to be doing that. I that's who you are you are you are and to not be carrying that sacred. Trust is a deeply ignoble that at one two you might not actually be that you may be a faker as lucky who've come in simulated that because that's a good game to play you know the kind of typology pobably should still be stealing. Everybody's money by virtue. Being an investment banker sometimes discovered the pretending to be an entrepreneur is maybe a better gig for some reason maybe it feels like they can get better social currency and and so there's a lot of folks out there who were actually just pretending to be distinct typology and of course the niche of entrepreneurs began to become it's complex complex had some people who are entrepreneurs debate positive sense are they are there for sure. There's a lot of people who are simulating it and you're you're playing the role of the artifact of the archetype and then you got the third which is I'm GONNA call them. The slavers is that a good term or the compilers also known as the venture capitalist so I'm looking at you guys. Let all of you the most which is how do I create a mechanism to capture say twenty two year old old Shaman. Jim Morrison is a similar different subbed embiid context harnesses in yields the potential attention of this thing but instead of pointing at what it's supposed to be doing at his most profound capacity you turns it into something that turns a water real degenerates generates this sort of more of an so instead of getting the thing that Peter Thiel constantly gets frustrated about is that we have done anything interesting. Your news like thirty ears The reason is that we keep pointing are interesting in new folks at more of x incident. We ended up getting what an infinite repetition. Whatever the SNAPCHAT instagram thing is as opposed to well frankly anything interesting valuable one of the things that the context of Silicon Valley broadly speaking because we have the history of the seventies and the eighties emergency technologist East Coast the migration of some of the west coast in it's it's a coordination ordination with hippies and with drugs and with a willingness to try new things and with the the the mother of all demos in the inside of Holy Shift beanbag chair things with work and in the evolution of a whole dinner so that context knows generative context for sure budget and stuff it has created a hill hill climbing niche. It should be valley crossing domain explain the difference just for the audience that might not be familiar yeah okay so this is coming out of evolutionary theory. Both Eric Brett wants US quite a bit at the guy. Actually specifically due to video on the concept is is like this feminist fitness expert landscape and I imagine imagined Z. Dimension is this thing on the fitness which we consider just say good awesome work what was probability of repetition reproductive success in the context right so if I've got a landscape and it's the Arctic and I'm doing bunny space and there's a white eight fuzzy small compact bunny is going to be really hi spike because White Fuzzy's compact bunny is very fit in the Arctic whereas say a Neon Green Jackrabbit is like zero really unfit fitness landscape with neon orange jackrabbits would on here and why Fuzzy bunnies up here now migrate that niche into Mono neon orange isn't going to help us go just regular background Jack Rabbit in to the desert southwest the fitness landscapes chips so now my white fuzzy bunnies done and my Jackrabbit is now fit does basically the relationship between the two was recognized by the way the fitness game is nothing bought the integration of the total title bion of particularly particular region so it's actually some integral of the organism so the White Bunny's Cardin is landscape say the polar bear and the polar bears part of the fittest landscaper the bunny and the snow everything else so hill climbing is changing yourself in an effort to become more and more like a hi local hill so I grey bunny and I began to become more white bunny says the climbing the hill of fitnesses of there's a location which were put compete and there may not be any given organism at that guy I'm kind of in bunny space and in the transition from being a Jack Rabbit some of the bunnies that are more white tend to be were successful in so the evolutionary functions selects its way to the top of that and that's one direction he'll climbing and it is kind of defined as almost a strategy of go upgrade yet. It's a very simple strategy during the direction that is slightly fit and if there's a hill there you're gonna find your way to the top now. One of the things that have happened in hill climbing is the begins to a competition for the top of the hill was the king of the hill and what are the characteristics the niches that to degree to which there is really relatively the static niche more and more organisms are going to begin to find themselves competing to be at the top of the hill socks was often optimization opponent so optum becoming a hill climber who sort of reference say a Sabertooth Tiger can see like going from Jaguar Sabertooth Tiger. Is this going from ninety ninety five percents of the ninety nine percents how any given hill of Feline Predator in the context of peel with North America is crucial because as you move more and more up the hill you become more and more optimized and less and less generalized so that's attention and verve accuweather invokes this in cognitive space. It's an interesting correlation there so that's how climate come back to these construction his second because it's important then you've got valley cross as the across the inverse direction. It's a actually go down in fitness seriously heading down some local gradient and possibly stayed out for some period your time under the long game expectations. There's a higher hill yonder right so his his classic example. I'm a bunny money in the Arctic. The things are warming up the Nisha is changing and I notice for whatever reason the anthropomorphized into evolution somehow notices that there's it's a strategy ear there where becoming less white which for a while actually is heading me down and the Arctic were still cold. It's news a lot is part of a longer Dane because if I make it through the Valley of death which socks right is not going to be easy but if I make it through that I'm the Brown Jack Rabbit as denise transitions into being the desert and now massive explosion inclusion on the other side and because this kind of a diner and it's just one example as many many other examples another example is just a strict for global I we we actually hit the local optimum of Grey bunny and we're all kind of like bouncing around that hill and it turns out to get to white bunny. We have to go through a downgrade because it's a shift in the plea trip actually get from gray to white printing has to clear trophy you got this weird like white and black patches to temporarily makes you fit but eventually you select out the black patches you become white so be it a global optimum. All the gray bunnies are like fuck that I'm not going anywhere near that. They're still focused on Oakland so that's too funny distinct relationships to evolutionary disability and each one of which is more or less adaptive under different contexts so when a particular niche is relatively concentrated for relative long period of time so if I have just drawn X. Y. I've got a big hill really tall and just stays there forever where welcome to hill condiment and if you've gone. I owed it invalid dollar crossing. You're just GONNA have bad day. You'll be either selected against are actually extinct by contrast if it's like a luxury ocean where there's just like minor hills rising in here they're going away while can develop crossing land of even spending an iota of energy or time going into. Hill Comey Motors again means. You'RE GONNA lose yet really good at the context of our so as here just have to add this last piece because it's such a fucking toolkit but anybody who has it in didn't watch other places. This is a good thing to have is a niche construction and we we organisms are not just receiving our niche. We are part of and infectious. Some extent can actually shake the director is a beavers quitting dance changed the riverbed into the river niche into sentence more amenable to beavers to this lot right in fact you might say this is one of our biggest problem gay as given his way too much power to construct and in particular is just kind of use a different metaphor this talk about in cultural evolution. The great moderation of the eighties to now ish has been a consequence of niche construction so that the cultural political economic niche the perhaps maybe should have gone through a big big change in the seventies didn't and so the guys who would climb the hill achieved a level of selective advantage in the social context of the of the seventies they were able to hold a niche is going into desert stayed so they can keep winning because they had a capacity control control. The nature of the niche and to happened was the valley crossing capacity in humanity began to get some sense artificially selected against a starting in the late seventies. Perhaps industrial proposed this ethic. era is does as well. We should have been going through a valley crossing exercise where the valley crossing typology Collagen a one like it actually saw it was more successful and then be countries renewed your renewed the cultural fabric into something that was more responsive to what was it really emerging but instead we engage in top down these construction we held a ruptured decades symptoms effectively increasingly super sealion hypertrophied and increasingly fragile SIMILAC of the fifties sixties and seventies and an insult doing we two things we artificially lifted for hyper excellence Hyper Hill Clinton and artificially selected against Valley Crossing Ryan so poor Steve Jobs instead of being able to be a true valley crosser had had to become a tech entrepreneur which is like the the the minimum viable characteristic take maximum capacity for True Valley crossing which is real by the indication of novel Technologies Definite Valley Crossing but still fundamentally in service of the machinery of the seventies and eighties and ultimately legible Jabbour to the capital machinery and the the the Congressmen shared the marketing machine or the educational missionary all that stuff flex service of that particular mechanism as opposed to actually being able to go down to the deeper code and renovate that deeper code in whether it was even more fundamentally adoptive to what could have been in that context and so what happens is is is you get a choice you can have as an entrepreneur particularly say around the turn of the Millennium and really twenty ten after the financial crisis became really really artificial. You could either go well. I'M GONNA try to trod while the path of authenticity and you're really do the work and valley crossed my way through this thing or I can ticket and take the elevator her straight to the top of the mountain. It's not just a hill. It's a mountain and a bunch of good folks named venture capitalists and Angel Investors and strategic advisers are lurking about looking looking for people to put on the elevator and if I can find a way out of the elevator I get to be the head of the unit I can if I can play the excellent can play the the hill coming game rob family. Even though I'm doing something truly meaningful in the world. I'm doing something that is perceived as super salient in a culture that is no longer deeply connected to reality and so I began to select for simulation as opposed to four reality and this is I think the last great seduction action in hyper problematic course and so paint me a picture a little bit of what it could have looked like if steve jobs in the other like like minded folks were actually valley crossers. How would the world have have changed or look different from Asthma Janet today and then different but related question. Is Let's say all the technologists investors listening say okay. You're we're on board. We we see history and the president the same way you do what you do and you're scrubbing here. What do we do now have voted with look different. If Valley crossing would have happened and for people who wanna a maybe valid cross now or or get on board. What can we even and I know it's early days where to start to think about it started so the answer to the first question is actually kind of a very interesting turn and what I've asked you to do is even sense. The the modality of expression the key 'cause remember what's actually going to happen is we're going to start at the cultural level and work our way up was a tendency and I would point out this tendency to think about the future in terms of the superficial superficial artifacts and death point or the president as of today is not today in a meaningful sense because we have cell phones and not see for example flying cars. It's not the answers. The question or the answer is not we'd have flying cars at a cellphone. Although that's not the point it would be a vastly simpler more wholesome wholesome and more meaningful world. That's the key distinction. That's what happens when you hit that fork. Is that you you take the stuff from the depths that bottle the depths before and you move it from the bottom up you actually debase cultural currency in exchange for maximizing were supporting corning financial currents and that can. I can do this to moves actually because I think the first movie was kind of concrete people can get the sense of it and then sip it back five decades because I think it's kind of the same has happened over overcame which is why we are where we are supposed to look at two thousand eight financial crisis and its compare that to nine hundred twenty nine Financial Crisis Economic Crisis Zan financial crisis commingled so and so when you have the financial crisis it hits at the top the financial system sees it first response I I do stock. Markets collapsed things like that now in some sense you got a choice in how you respond. You respond to the financial level. We can actually let the financial level burn like a forest fire. You can try to come in there with a bunch of stuff. Put out the fire or you can let the fire burn at that level. If you do the former summer you will in fact at least if you haven't of tools do you can actually put out the fire all the financial system but you're doing it at the cost of for example used constricts. Austrian economics is a model you get the cons at the cost of reducing the market's capacity to actually engage in efficient allocation of resources. You're injecting false signal into financial there and so now the the markets no longer is affected actually knowing where the resources should be allocated now. It's actually sensing whatever the choice making was that it was actually is now injecting false signal to the market as signal signal. It can't tell the difference. It's incapable of it. So now you started to get economic allocations that in fact are inefficient the wrong actually d state lesson economic layer in exchange for trying on to support the financial there but of course we can go deeper. If the crisis is a big one like ninety nine to two thousand and eight you might actually see penetrate from the financial into the economic into the social when people start getting whoa the choices that the political class are making are they increasing or decreasing the political currency so is now nineteen twenty nine Germany in eighteen twenty nine United States the way that the United States responded to the Great Depression broadly speaking increased political currents through obviously what of cultural responses to save confiscation gold but across the social field net net confidence in both the competence and good faith of the political class politics democracy democracy in America increased significantly during the art of the Great Depression whereas of course our Germany evaporated platelet at the way warmer Germany ended coulter being taken to the crisis penetrate find financial to economic to social and then ultimately actually took cultural so why Mar Germany's cultural layer evaporates into convergence into Nazi Germany not the kind of thing that you'd like to have happen ever get right in the US for sure the cultural air got stronger as you go back and actually read letters others and novels and sociology books set written in the purity rate depression or talk to old people who were alive. They will often often comment on how life day to day life even where it felt harder. Economic bubble actually felt more real at a social outlet communities pulled together. Eh depending your neighbor you trusted your French with your family like that is a warmth to it that will ultimately would give rise to American. The fifties they gave rise is to a deeper stronger cultural fabric with more confidence in its capacities the competence in the good bits of political level which then builds up right. It's from foundations up and that builds will power but of course you could do the opposite is to Germany then switched from four to two thousand and eight just what happened we made. I think the elites taste made a collective effort to debase the deeper currencies in exchange for supporting these more superficial currents and by the way across the world not just in the US in Europe in China and Japan the panic Cetera so what we have seen then is of course it debasement of the political currency nobody trusts political institutions at all and now debasement of cultural currency now or the process reaping what we do with that win win they to the tea party showed up that was response to a debasement of the political currency a political class. You fucked up somehow of course your habits. Something just isn't the signs the signal something is wrong occupy Wall Street something is wrong. It's a real sign. You've got a choice you can either respond to reality or you can double down on delusion mel down delusion but it doesn't go away it just goes doubt. Bieber genera dealing with the cultural level of course if power to the cultural level at least with the with human meets the Kremlin exist. You'RE GONNA be operating in the biological substrate. The biological substrates substrate for example is obligated tribal which is at new nationalism to beginning to rise because the cultural level of what has allowed us to actually be coordinated and relatively cosmopolitan sociology it is fabricated and if it goes away the baseline below that is that's McCain Bucky which by the way that's predictable you can predict that in fact I did predicted imagine from the rooftops back in two thousand nine but the folks I was talking to didn't care or didn't didn't didn't didn't change their behavior so we got here through many different stage of this game may stores so I WANNA say game at because but what would the world right now so if we hadn't engaged in that that top down niche construction which can also just called delusion can we can use the individual cognitive psychological model because vase associated closely monitored concepts like not not quite as warwick but they're very metaphorically connect universal lot so as a culture as a society we engaged in hardcore drug abuse to enable ourselves to not live the reality for decades with somewhat obvious consequences if you think about it in that fashion if we hadn't done that a lot of stuff would have broken a lot of stuff suffer broken in the seventies and the eighties would have been pretty scary pretty nasty like would have had deep cleansing economic crisis crashed probably the entire banking sector would have just gone away and any of that what you mean by drug abuse when you say you mean literal an metaphorically like economic actually yes literally and metaphorically so metaphorically metaphorically we did say like what do you call them. Fiat currency shifting from the gold standard if you are obligated different goals from obligate Fiat to Petrodollar Lorraine petrodollars toward the fucking thing. We're doing right now. self-conscious delusion kind of an interesting story we have right now and that actual drug abuse right both both causally and affected on the one hand a whole bunch of cocaine really helps fuel this sort of set of choices and a whole bunch of Oxycontin and Aqsa Kota is now part of what is enabling people to simply be not well in math and in the delusional landscape that is the the structure that we happen to have spilled onto so if you could imagine in does actually really Nice novels that were written back in the fifties and sixties that's just kind of like drop into those spaces feel the texture of it in fact even last night. I just find myself on youtube watching like nineteen fifty five hundred sixty five candid camera in black and white I feel the people on the camera fill the wholesomeness and even the innocence and the reality and the connectedness and the degree to which they feel like the kind of person of like wow that would actually be a friend quality of friendliness in those people this hard to feel now with people because you know we've spent a Lotta time buck when people up so so wholesome is a good point and connected and by the way vastly more well positioned to actually make the transition that we're talking about 'cause you wouldn't have to go back in recapitulate. You wouldn't have to recover. Wholesomeness fully could step forward? You'd have that as a foundation. Things like really hard complicated. The problems like how do we actually solve say the relationship between our complicated system in the complex ecological environment think about like the seventies. NASA mindset just upgrade by forty years of rack rail capacity sitting on top of the substrate of a culture that was deeply solid at a political economic systems functional not it focused hyper functional. Just take those things you'd have a bunch of can do smart people who knew how to collaborate without defection who can actually think about reality without marketing knows science and connect cooperate across distinctions like simple symbols. I guess but the kind anything you need when you're trying to tackle the problem and the problem with this really big Carter wicked problems require that kind of a constant. That's one side. I can go into more doubt if you'd like but sort of a division that that roddenberry put the Star Trek the next generation that spirit the spirit of it more than the artifacts of it would literally just be the world were actually living with a pretty high degree of confidence that we had the baby boomers really really amazingly despoiled their inheritance at a level that is if we make it through this. We'll go down as the single greatest since maybe run third century. Maybe full stop okay so next. What oh I do well then easy. There's about well this cut it to move to be perfectly frank and then the third thing that happens the first move is is what's the phrase recognize. You've got a problem. Let's just do a on this. In a big part of the problem is now. We're so we we are all running a lot of malware and this is not where either because it's just not fit. It was just bad code that is just Kinda stuck in the system because this actual our like it was actually she injected by Mellon actors to to jacker system in some way and variations in between like. There's safer example go to college is now our I think probably well-intentioned like. I don't think it was intended to mess you up but it's it's. It's it's it's that code runs way too much choice emission. Maybe she went sensuous. There's some people for whom nets still a valid good choice but it runs way too much choice and even to the point where like again like middle school kids are not spending their summers studying for the sat so they can't increase the bar with each other in a Queen Red Queen's race to do something that will definitely not be worth. Its while in at the right. That's what happens so malware while Shit. You're going to defray the hard drive. You'RE GONNA have to figure out how to actually read your own. Individuals individuals system vow our that is a non trivial problem personally into soluble problems can be done or at least it seems teams reasonably soluble and I myself have been endeavoring to do it for years to say that made progress again hacker. No this is one thing that Noor Acquis doc was created to help with the big fix vastly larger than Euro- Hacker nerd acquis created with that in mind and to the greatest hackers able to do more it would endeavor endeavoured to address that whole problem for sure such when peace and we can go into the in debt to some detail if you'd like to use the word malware because it connects with my own background is software internet person but we should be clear on the fact that is not purely cognitive effect most of it has to do with the body on the relationship between the mind and body such what to is reboot society at the level of relation -ality so make better friends get into relationships with your family or at least the aspects of your family where better relations with meaningful impossible practice the fine art of of discernment and relationship in all contexts so determine this in this particular sense is the ability to identify. What is the the the relationship that is possible now with this given individuals so you and I like to find out what is the highest possibility of our relationship determines the fine art of that and then right. Mike relationship is the practice of stepping into that and then enabling future frontier further frontier that relationship and then again discerning is available and continue to go into that so in the fabric of culture at the level of direct analogy at the level of getting better and better better at just being a good friend at being a good partner at being a good parent being good child and you notice there's a feedback loop here a lot of our malware getting in the way our religion -ality but also to degree which are relationships are more real and healthier. You really supports the difficult challenge of identifying and getting over the malware and those things are co co-created. There is a quarter okay so once you've got into that and by the way that becomes progressive as you do that more and more start to open up then you step into the next big piece piece which I would call something like maybe like your vocation or you're calling or your your Dharma and not actually having to explicitly use language guage from spiritualism religion even described the function and so to the degree to which they throwing a flag for you. I would suggest that smaller yes there is reality to the fact that religious and spiritual traditions have thrown a lot of mistake. Andalusian into society. I'm telling the story where we're sort of swimming up to you are eyeballs in mistaken delusion religion spirituality to be perfectly frank over the past century have not been the primary contributors to that that doesn't mean that much of anything it just need you just have to be careful and thoughtful fought for your dealing with shit so let's not stupid smart in so gay these concepts in calling Dharma they point to something we point to an abstract abstract operator in choice space that is a real thing and it's something along the lines of getting very very clear on the the Japanese would call your itchy guy aren't the overlap between your unique singular capacities the moment that which is really most needful now now and your joy your bliss that that which most fully feeds you're growing soul because you're not a thing you're not being become who you're being andrew becoming coming and the world in which are taking place. That's another way of looking at it. Get really clear on it and notice that most of your artifacts of what you think is your you're calling are probably driven by our probably driven by bottles that aren't yours bottles that other people have created tech entrepreneur as an example it very well be that it ain't that insure nature call. It may be something quite different. In fact you may not even have a word to describe it because gay has given a sin. It's really not subscribing the reality. We live in very well so you manage this process that all reinventing. We actually break it down into a lower level. Fundamentals like empathy or are discrimination between what is more what is less right or supporting people like basic stuff and then perhaps as you get better sense ants on that then you can begin to see how that shows it should have been doing in an actual kind of temporal spatial temporal relational bound resource movement process process that actually uses those capacities in the world and it sounds. Banal but I don't mean this Banal. I mean this like your cross to bear. I mean the the a piece of the puzzle of the bigger store that is yours and yours alone. Because the amount of bandwidth in the amount of energy that will flow through the total system to to make the transition from game to game be is enormous and you can think of almost like entity or you can wait as a good example so abusing the met for me older thors hammer and notice the thing about floors hammer. I think it's really important not heavy as a heavy hair. The whole can't lift thors hammer. The most strong can't thors hammer. It's infinitely heavy and this is exactly yours to carry but if you are worthy and we insecure identified like three people title then it's infinitely light. That's a really good metaphor the second archetype because if you're carrying something trying to do something it's not very very deeply specifically yours to do as more bandwidth is more energy flowing through the system it gets it is going to accelerate infinitely heavy. You'll become atlas holding the earth. It'll just flattening. She just GonNa fuck a drop in one way or another. GonNa drop you might as well drop it intentional and hopefully drop it on somebody for whom it is their job because it is suddenly becomes so this is like a lot of transformation right. You have to really have an enormous amount of humility and honesty see I would recommend infant humility or my personal perspective. I should say you probably don't know Jack Shit. You're probably GONNA fail. Every time you try anything is I don't. I don't mean I don't mean self. I'm saying this kind of harsh way by I don't. I don't mean a sense of like self loathing. I just need to really really recognize that the thing that got you hear. This is particularly true for say like the billionaire so the world do you happen to be truly successful type entrepreneur the the models the frameworks that have is the strategies and by the way a lot out of the relationships that got you to the top of the local. Hill are almost certainly not going to be in service of where it is. We actually need to go there just Oklahoman to help us develop cross so they're gonna get in the way you're give voice in the back of your head saying hey do. You need to a billion dollars that private jet I can you possibly with array but that Zo wrong. Just keep taking the drugs. Get Okay by the way oftentimes for real to burn just heading finish specific deal. I stepping off your high horse and recognizing that you may actually not you may have to actually go back in the child's. Child's went is no fun thing and Chow Mein is vulnerability innocence in radical incompetence in the face of a gigantic world a new parents found anywhere but to accept that step into it do the work that needs to be done to free yourself of all that which ostensibly may have actually gotten you to a to singular greatness but nonetheless no longer search you or anyone else rebuild the fabric of relations for real which by the way money and power and fame my brain the way and then begin to discover that piece which may in fact not be the least bit interesting or the least bit glorious it is nonetheless precisely exclusively pursue and with outlet humility. Bring it in with master recommendation a love it if you develops. Let's just say billionaire. Zeo that you're speaking with say hey ya just built this enormous company. I've built all these skills of of managing teams inspiring people of allocating resources I've all this charisma How are you gonNa tell me that. None of my skills are going to earn that. Most of my skills aren't going to apply yeah yeah well. There's really two pieces to that answer because in some sense it's not true right in some sense. Some portion portion is probably deeply fundamentally who you are right and so it's not forget that whatever the journey Gotcha here hopefully we're fucking faking it. The whole time and probably couldn't can be true is accessible. Were right. It's hard work being on box because there's no way that he is making it easy as pushing himself to the US that does two things two things to keep in mind in what is you probably have ignored other important stuff on the way you mean gauging in hill-climb which means you've been optimizing and a lot of that optimizations left a lot of stuff on the wayside. You're not whole you are. One of each is monstrous reverse cripples giant capacities in some areas and micro or a non existent capacities and other areas and those other areas are part of who you are as you can have to actually drop your amazing capacities ladies crawl into this other aspects of yourself really really inhabits. Do penance do the four steps of the twelve step program then from that place and from that perspective now with a lot more wisdom and humility then he can actually go back and reactivate those areas of true genius but now with something that is sacred acreage not cobain your longer abusing yourself in the world by using your genius Ed Bedroom Not Nick of neural lace navy in the case of tests. Maybe not specifically specifically call him for Helen gets an architect the Detroit lightning bolts but I'm speaking to the individual labs hearing what I'm saying. That's one side and the the other aside is just just context. The kind of thing that is needful is not the same kind of thing. Just raising children is not the same thing as climbing. Mount Everest and dumb reduce raising children than as like climbing Mount Everest and there are aspects of you that if given the care and the nutrition to truly develop and brought into right relationship with the whole of you will enable you to truly be agree parent not just a great leader of expeditions to the top of mountains. Let me ask you another question eight. You've said that I've been focusing Zingani optimizing a certain set of things things that I see oh been books. Optimizing are the things that that we measure the company or that our measure measurable legible and you'd have been taught a measure what matters so that that's why focused on and so is the solution to measure lots of other things that I'm not currently measuring nerve find better ways to measure them or is it to reprogram so I don't even care about measurements at all oh man so to continue with our our metaphor drugs you could choose Methadone and that that would be measuring lots of other things sir the worst thing I mean sometimes it's helpful but remember member complicated in the complex to measure is to render unto the complicated dome it in a deep sense right to to optimize around a metric top primaries around a a finite set of metrics is ultimate the end of the day to be complicated. I'm a distinction between the way that you might play a role in Gay Ama or in the transition or engaging in suggests by the way not to allow your ego to try to let you off the hook by saying Oh. I'll play the game because that's awfully easy to say y'all be the philanthropists. I'll do less harm with my billions not sorry you don't get to actually choose that. Fate has a role in mind for you which is to say there's something about the nature of the complex in which we find ourselves your particular life path and capacities are actually where it is needed and so if being part of game is ultimately part of your Dharma than muzzle just made up step into it and don't pretend but it may not be automate in fact be fighting fires game as is what you're here for certainly in that case metric expansion useful useful tool with because it's lids legible other people can get that in actually go to a lot of other people and say here is that these six metrics on the metrics cool phone six at met my she shifting puzzling meaning there will consider and even in the space transition. I think there's a lot of the stuff that we do in game a is necessary because remember this complicated machinery is current supporting supporting everybody. We can't just can't eat can't heat our homes. outside of game may right now and it's. GonNa take a while. I'm talking like generations. I'm talk about fifteen minutes to three generations before we truly are in a situation where the socio technical infrastructure the Meta psycho technologists in tight technologies of culture and the individuals. We'll just try to mix up thing are self supporting in game it could take awhile so the transition's. GonNa take a while and and we're going to have to be quite thoughtful again not delusional right not not letting ourselves off the hook but quite thoughtful about how we actually refine and use the best and the sort of feeling in the right direction aspects of Gamay to support a real transition that allows game be to have the womb that it needs to actually actually be able to develop the point where it can begin to take over and in take responsibility for the world so in some sense yes in another sense. No I in another sense. There are actually frankly deeper capacities and here again. I haven't invoked John. Vacant mutable can again his language. Here's quite strong so let us move ooh from the domain of proposition knowing down stack. It's moved down through procedural imprescriptible and into Participatory Participatory. Tori is not mattress. I can't be relevance. Realization is an incident domain. You can't generate even if s entirely finite system by the way bad news Jose guys we can go to that if you'd like can't do it can't do that job. fortunately the body that we live in was evolved to do that precise job so building good instincts learning the intuitions of real thing right. It's not a made up thing and it's not also a magical. It's just a real thing as anybody who's ever done anything meaningful knows and learning how to actually use the whole of your instrument the whole of your body mind in world to make effective choices is the real answer which by the way then computational analytics is apart with now. It's apart Brian to service of a larger whole will not an upstart first officer taking itself as the captain of the ship and so in in the game be sort of version of the world metrics metrics have a role but is significantly decreased role in terms of you fundamentally what they do it amen which motivate people and help allocate attention and resources yeah they do. They must right. It's impossible not to there's a a necessity of being able to actually take measure of the world and needs a assimilated with temperatures aside that we were going to use that but it's embedded into a context where to be perfectly frank using language from cybernetics to control structure is larger and outside of the metric structure to the metrics are inputs into a context that has more things than finite chimerical metrics as control system for example billions just use computational language so you can think about this week actually think about this quite doc rhythmically. I could try to build a system. That does something like analytically assesses. The temperature humidity wind direction the cloud cover her and chooses what clothes I should wear for example. It won't suck was actually going to be okay if I if if I if I artificial constraint the system to actually have four choices and it can actually do we could do that job right by the way this seems familiar. Welcome to like everything that we live in right now facebook. I can't give you real the Latian ships but I can give you like four motorcars. Choose one okay. Let's kind of a game may at its maximum axum direction her using the word real there were did. I use it. Sorry real relationships now okay so what I mean. Uh Relationships is renate relations on the basis of the death. The breadth and the the evolutionary duration of the increasing vector of sovereignty of the individuals involved right so that means is my relationship with you is a relationship where on the one hand I am endeavoring to support your your becoming often. That's the the intent of our relationship and you were different as becoming off them and write that by directionality analogy and there's a third the actual relationship is an ontological primitive it begins to have more and more depth and richness to it and so it it begins to have to have agreement to begin to have communications protocols when begin to have a history and connectedness that allows us to do deeper and harder things things with each other allows us to debrief our own selves rotter cover more categories that that's real nece relation out on one example. I could try to write gay computer. Algorithm could choose what I wear on the basis of the the environmental characteristics but notice in order to do it. I have to actually artificially constrain the space of possibility ability and even just the stuff I'm looking at and then I might be a really aspiring late. Nineties Co also hey adding like fashion and dating in a positive I e harmony figure out nor have had ed game to my other. you know the maximum says about the goggles approach would be the two things are very closely related related or I could be a person and that the person make the choice just give the personal data say was going to be ninety three degrees and sunny yeah you might you know that's it. That's really neat is a person who has some degree of biscuit address myself. I don't actually need that other stuff so that's kind of the idea like give us. The dated is is meaningful to choice making and don't go any further than that and August we may ask for so queries worries are crucial query space where I can explore the raw data and it's possible for me into always go all the way down to the raw data and and be able to build up my own to passage wish I want is actually a whole sort of design ethos. That's part of the story but I think we're getting pretty close to with my physical. Go ended the attention span of the average plummeted. Maybe a couple more questions. One is a what do you say to the sort of Tyler Cowen viewing talk and Patrick calls and just came out with sort of progress studies in a call to arms Would you say to the view of you is when economists say hey hey tyler you wrote a book praising or the need for economic growth and how it leads all these incredible things and GPS correlated with a lot of things that we care about you know infertility Talapity etc when they hey isn't it unsustainable he says yet for how many for how long you know maybe maybe thousands of year. I'll take a few two thousand more years of it and plus. It beats the alternative. which is you know stagnation I guess you could say hey. There's different alternatives but you've said that you you think by fifty percent by twenty one hundred or something like that. Would you believe different than what he believes which is reminiscent of a of of of of the larger view like what what is he not understand why don't know tither at all so I'm literally written interpolated based upon the set of words you just said and my own biases and stereotypes associate with tagged economists and so I'm projecting I think sentenced actually using Ken era as my standard which is kind of a bad one maybes comptes with absent near beat that it'd be easier if more first person but let me see what I can say so one piece is a typically missing from essentially all economic models is humans real actual living anthropologically Jackley real neurologically real humid and the ways that they actually go about making choices and what happens for example where meaningfulness is the fabric of reality also also it is the case that we actually have done quite an extraordinary job of giving ourselves what we want to agree. We can name it. this is real problem though because we're actually actually it's now quite proven in cognitive science. The people are quite poor at noon what they need. we tend to artifact or there's a sense of need simple like. I have a feeling in my body where it becomes thirsty but for whatever reason with popped up into my mind say a stimulant put a chocolate candy or maybe a beverage that won't necessarily actually give adoration I so my needs satisfying and my once articulation are actually not particularly well. Connected is a stumbling on happiness and other staff. Were Pretty Shitty it actually doing that for cognitive reasons culture the answer to that problem because we're way outside of our adaptive landscape are way over our data peds and our culture's not very effective culture actually giving us highquality needs meeting so the degree to which was actually hypertrophied both our capacity and our intensity of meeting our wants without being able to actually have full symmetry of that capacity to actually meet our needs is new. It's the scene from scarface with the pilot okay. Hey you have successfully been able to get a giant pile of cocaine. Well that's true it leads to scenes with machine guns just one piece right and I don't mean that to be superficial but it means just take a broader view of the cognitive neuroscience. Take Part of the answer apology for that matter. I'd say also ticket Robert View things like the way the conflict like the stuff that Jiffy Westport. Let's just take a look at that so when a city turns into a corporation two things will happen one is it will experience a brief golden age. The second is that it's already debt. When was the Golden Ages. Oh we will collapse and by city I just you could also just say a nation community even a body human. There's something about this dynamic relationship. It is the complex complicated thing. Once you have generated optimizing function action in a complex system you will for sure get that optimization you will have a a something that looks like a golden age but only within the face spaces as the metrics through actually optimizing for and you will for sure have killed the organism now. The question is how long will here's what's interesting again almost back to two west stuff. This is one of those things that happened. I actually interacted with with Jeffrey stuff back. In two thousand six. I think at a conference concerning the conference close group giving some of the first stuff was going on in the context of cities and he kinda passing because he's British and he's a physicist so he doesn't like to hang his hat on things that aren't able to be very micro agree or rigorous but you mentioned forty four thousand forty five. You mentioned that you as they were doing these curve. They noticed that no matter what you did even if you have created new esker Meta s curve kept going to infinity or in this termination aged twenty forty five as sort of paying attention. My ears perked up that paid a lot of attention. I spent a Lotta time at that fine engagement bunch of different groups and what I noticed I was that that Kinda thing kept popping up from different methods of analysis not exactly twenty forty five but like sings where different methods of analysis showed me collapse of at some sort of accelerating breakdown for multiple different directions it involves each other therefore declaration in that range just like twenty thirty five twenty five for like nine or ten distinct domains should that kind of thing so I kept paying more and more attention and kept working on okay. What's it's a broader theory that might explain this but I would just look at Jefferson knows something there something real about what happens if you stay on the game a train and how long you can continue to double down on the things of hypertrophic ation and trying take that metric space and Indu render try to make your your metric space increasingly large. China has done this as as far as I can tell China has made a intentional commitment to doubling down on micro complicated located seem to chosen to give over their complex cultural and social environment to a uncomplicated a micro hyper micro complicated system here. I'm speaking about the social credit currency in and both and the proposition is that's the end of that like they will experience according to buy the things I've just been saying and then of course new for your time again the experience a potentially quite spectacular golden age reluctantly and also already kill the organism like something deeply deeply bad will happen and death. I think kind of the unstaffed going on in in Silicon Valley like the the oath shits shits was just handed over to A. I was the only thing that can solve this problem. It's the same thing to the degree to which the building is strictly out on strictly. Click causal is strictly complicated. No matter how nuanced and fast you were your clock speed is there is a qualitative distinction between the complicated pitted complex and it will not get you there will actually ultimately need that when you finally do hit the wall that that hitting is the end. It is the last really bad the longer you delay actually kicking the habit the harder the dumbbell so that's the metaphor four and I see that as sort of China's like the Black Mirror come to life in some ways end game be describing his White Mirror look like what could be alternative. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the TV show Black Mirror. I've watched exactly two episodes so I have subsets okay last question. Let's get you out of here. Amid this is perfect segue actually because what would encourage me to reach out to Tyler who work I followed because it helped Wanna thought on an interesting intuit helped justify my work. I am a veteran capitalist. Economic growth is good. I'm contributing to that makes me feel good. Agra red scale. That's when I rent the towers at hey isn't this unsustainable whether it's two thousand years or twenty years they shouldn't we do something about this so the closing question is basically people like me who who who are on this train started do the work now questioning the work that they do and by his work. I mean you don't watch. All your interviews follow game. Be The movement any last words for them in terms of what more can they do besides be become aware they are become educated and then. Maybe it's a participate in community. Or what more do you want to say to me and the people that represent me yeah yeah so sue new prophylactic moves one is if game becomes a movement it has it's a disaster movements. Rabat movements our our wealth is a whole construct there but basically movements running the unconscious and they have a finite capacities actually the ultimate basically corporations at the end of the day meaning that they they have lost complexity so to degree to which game he becomes movement than it's done what it will do. It's over which I guess that might happen. If it happens. Hopefully it fails in in some four direction equally very very wary of sociopathic marketers. Somebody's put a link actually to a really good article. Kim Remember the name of an epidemic prefer mops and sociopathic think in terms of seeds so the game be seen gene as soon as it can actually be Hashtag. Gabi label is a label lots of folks that has any currency as a movement lots of folks are GonNa show up and start trying to turn that into their Air Brad and the tried to play off that brand so it'd be very wary of that think of it more like How would you be give it back to this notion of real relationship the whole fabric the whole intent the whole thing is. Donald discernment regionality so the fact that somebody has again be pin does not mean their game be player so tread carefully on that front as we didn't have the invitation to become a game be player and then to become discerning and then to learn how to be in relationship with other game be players which is very hyper local best done with real people can be done virtually as well but best real people and the way this thing will play out if it plays out will look like the way that ice crystals form on a glass which is that you will have a diverse set of stick casting nodes that will change the possibilities space of becoming more game being the local environment which will celebrate crystallization then you will see risa matic connections between crystal structures that will generate larger Richard Territories of possibilities space which will eventually tolerate into a very stiff elevation curve of crystallization. That's the pass tickets the fastest and the most the most coherence so it's something along those lines become very capable in yourself of learning only how to play game be in the context of gay non trivial very non-trivial doing that playing it performed ably ends up with you being a marketer or being. Do that's no good you have to actually recognize the game vs a higher game. The game may not a subsidiary or a sideways so being able to play the game and then once you begin to find other people who are game be players. The in the practice of skillfully learned this is more like Calvin ball like the rules are developed by the the players in real relationship in real context. Nonetheless is a real thick like it's not it's not a ephemeral and it also isn't what anybody wants a real fake. It's just it has to be discovered through this process. It can't be articulated. Discursive Leeann semantic actually lived not talked about. I think that's the perfect place to close. I guess today has been Jordan Hall Join. You've been more than generous time. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation beautiful. If you're an early stage entrepreneur we'd love to hear from you. Please hit us up village global dot. BC Slash at work catalyst.

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Game B, Liquid Democracy, and Complex Systems with Jim Rutt

Venture Stories

1:52:00 hr | 1 year ago

Game B, Liquid Democracy, and Complex Systems with Jim Rutt

"Hey everybody it's Eric. Torbert co-founder Partner Philip Global aid network driven venture firm and this is metro stories a podcast ask covering topics tech business with world leading experts. Everybody welcome to another episode of Inter Stories Ability Global here today with a very special guest Jim Rut. Jim Is an entrepreneur technologist thinker former chairman of the Santa Fe Institute now a research fellow Jim Welcome to podcast bags air great debris here Jim. I'm curious. What would you would add to that insurable but more more precisely? What do you think of the various different threads that underlie your career would what what do you think ties them together? You've done a lot of different and interesting things would sort of unifies though yeah it's funny that you mentioned that cause actually talking with that about that at lunch the other day someone inside yeah you gotta rather curious career all kinds of crazy shit right what possibly could organize all that stuff and the answer I believe honestly is. I've always had a essentially sub-conscious ability to sniff where the edge is and I want to be near the edge. If I find myself in an area that's too comfortable starting to settle down. It's time to move on. It's kind of like Daniel Boone. He'd always say when I can see the smoke from another man's man's cabins move on and used to drive people nuts and business soon as things got settled NARC startups were making money and or business units are making your money and everything was working reasonably well. It's time to pass this off on somebody. Else starts up mouths just to the point where we can enjoy it adds right. I find it boring so I think it's the old Daniel Boone Spirit that I'm never happy when things are to call and hence looking for where the ragged edges and where something new might be. There's a in terms of what guides where you spend your time now is sort of a top down. You'll mission that you're you're trying to adhere to or or or or accomplish serve or is it more bottoms up serve a year significant out where the where the interesting stuff is yeah both both both and that a uh basically just do what the hell I feel like and you know for instance my podcast the Jim Rome show by the way right. I just started on it sort of a Lark Art C. by like doing it and I did and I found it also then plugged into some my other missions which I wasn't clear that it would such as trying to think about what comes next I was respect to our social operating system. I started bringing some of the people from that world on my podcast which Kinda got me reengaged with those people so I would say I have no scheme neither top down or bottom up. I do want follow my news tend to drift toward where the action is and that's basically it. Let's get into the social operate system but let's start with the history Y- There's this concept game be seeming to gain steam that you helped how originator or were around early at twelve thirteen and edit manifested in you and and a colleague yours during hall came came up with Cul de Masturbation Party will get into some of the the history explain what this all means explain some of the history and and what what led to you guys coming up with that idea Jordan Hall and then Jordan Green Hall met. I think it was in two thousand seven or two thousand eight Trustees Santa Fe institute he was was a new trustee and I was trustee for about six years of that I think five years and after the meeting which decided to sit down and chat we have our conversation the holy Shit and here's another person who sees the world kind of like I do in a way of as a series of networks was signaling systems et Cetera Dreux and applying that point of view fairly critically occurrences both agreed. We did not like the current status quo and initially it was on on moral ethical grounds right. It was actually telling a story how my joined the Business World Nineteen seventy five. When I Graduate College I companies I worked for I would say we're actually honorable and ethical companies whip the good people running them etcetera but over time I saw the ethos of business being more and more cutthroat until sometime in the early nineties at least for the majority of company strictly larger companies the ethos was is it arguably legal and profitable if so I'll do it in Jordan about twenty years younger than I am a little bit less than that said shut when I joined the Business World Nineteen Ninety four that was exactly the right and I never liked it but you know it was what I had to confront and it doesn't that suck and then we then quickly developed I would say it's the foundational statement or two about our relationship? We do disagree agree on a fair number of things but we always find ways to cooperate work together. which is that it's a damn shame that society be structured such that an approach of honesty in good faith is a sucker strategy right and that by itself ought to be at the Monitor on whether it's a social operating system is a righteous one or not if the operate and honesty and good faith is a sucker strategy the then the society thoughts and that was essentially what we both agreed aren't society like we've now since updated you know arguably legal and profitable to argue legal or the calculated penalties for getting caught are smaller than the prophets so therefore do it right and that's it's the ethos of big business. Today we see it all the time I mean these guys are constantly getting caught. Certainly book surveillance capitalism goes again and again and again and how Google fucking lies everybody about their business practices right they get caught they get their hand slapped with eight hundred nine hundred and eighty million dollar fine or something and the process building a five hundred billion billion dollar company. That's just the way it goes you know Uber being the you know the probably the most extreme example one of they said fuck everybody fuck all the rules. We're just going to do with how we want. You can catch us after the fact but the meantime we're going to build a mega uniform and were right because they've had the political system. The political system is now upon a big business and big money right and so that's basically part of how we got there too but the other one is I think a cultural moral thing which emerged in the seventies and gain speed in the eighties these which was this concept that the only purpose of businesses to maximize shareholder value peered right and if you look at the history of the corporate form the limited liability entity whether it's escort Corp.. LLC anything that uses limited liability history of that is those charters were given out relatively sparingly typically by state legislatures or you know other places by the National Government for a specific specific purpose of social utility like building roads or canals or operating port or something like that later the corporate form was let off off the lead off the leash essentially to go and just do whatever the fuck it once so long as it the maximize shareholder value you know whether it's good for the people around or not and that was considered a edgy proposition when I was in college in the seventies that was advocated by the end Randy ins right and I'll confess I was an an randy and at one point smart fifteen year old wasn't right but hopefully you've said the time you're twenty five you see through that all right maybe it would work of everybody had an it at one thirty which forces oxymoronic this since I too is based on a bit cousy of distribution you gotta have everybody when you're one third anyway that bubbled up from there and if you look at some of the practitioners activity in the political space you know Newt Gingrich and Paul Ryan that's still confessed to worshipping at the altar of an brand and the idea that you know this fucking near business do dry. It sucks everybody. It makes it for themselves right. It was a minority view you in the seventies early seventies by the end of the seventies it was still a minority view in the country as a whole but may have been a majority view in the new entrepreneur Worl- and then gradually percolated out to the business world is also driven by some interesting technical innovations the junk bond debt raiders who took over the big bland corporations in downsize them chop them up with no by the way I I actually think that was good in many ways bland fifties and early sixties big corporate capitalism was a different kind of nightmare a nightmare of conformity in Horse Shit right and so the raiders broke that up but they then replaced the kind of bland managerial Azam with ruthless Sir red in blood and claw hyper capitalism and it wasn't the right bank to replace it with so those are some of the drivers you know the that seemed the Middle East to be what has led this very late in the day hyper capitalism to this current words essentially spinning running crazily out of control driven by a logic of its own. It's no longer the people in charge. It's money on money. Return you know think about somebody like Zuckerberg Berg I mean he had no reason to go public. Damn company was profitable. Get go yet all the money needed and initially. He sounded like he wanted to do good things the world weather but for reasons unknown he succumbed to taking his company public and then he's caught in the Goddamn world role in money on money return thickly short-term money on money return becomes the decider of everything right so no surprise he takes all Ali smart people who are going to build this platform for humans to level themselves up and instead turn it into a dopamine button pusher to capture as much much attention as possible to agitate people as much as possible to learn as much people as possible to sell your attention to the highest bidder for the most amount of money possible awesome so that's that's what happened is Burger bad guy. I don't know Zuckerberg probably not a bad guy but because of the game that he allowed himself to be sucked into the vortex of money on money return facebook has become probably on net a very bad influence lynch on our civilization before getting into game being the fifth attractor want do said so doc if you did to you to rephrase summarize the last forty years there's the game has gotten more rigged because because why because cultural changes is because because it worked people got rich or why did was it inevitable that things would would happen this way increasing financials ation or or sort of provide readiness. I guess as you say why did this happen wasn't inevitable that culture was part of it. The other technology right the invention of the junk bond on right the invention of venture capital the things came together perfect storm typically big things don't happen because of one 'cause this was oh you know multicultural and then another big one huge is that our political operating system got hacked by money right didn't didn't used to be that American politics was utterly dominated by big money and interestingly that era media ending but for the period safe from nineteen eighty the two thousand sixteen or a little before two thousand sixteen it was dominated truthfully still is the lower level races by money. I so for instance antitrust enforcement is set to become a joke since one thousand nine hundred with a few typically politically motivated exceptions and you know look at the concentration the Beer Industry Novak in the thirties the antitrust authorities basically rejected mergers that would have produced a single beer company that had more than three at three percent of the beer market. you know now we have inbev which has forty percent of the beer market and of course this kind of consolidation is really good for the people doing the consolidating and at least in the long haul is not likely to be too good for the consumers. Anybody knows price bears going up in the last couple years price of wheat hadn't gone on price corn on up riseborough at its monopoly or oligarchy rent extraction do to over-concentration in industry so I would say a number of things so he went back a little bit more of the history game be how this is sort of Mike. The earliest was the four our conversation with Jordan a stay in touch loosely by email you know every couple of months and in your community to our own independent research els going on. I happen to jump into a monetary thinking. I'd come the conclusion to thinking about don't our social operating system is a series of complex systems and signaling networks that the root of it all was that the actual nature of camera monetary system started researching and what is money right. Money's a very interesting thing your average person thinks that the you know frank the thing but assumes our current central banker mediated frank fractional reserve banking system was brought down from Mount Sinai by Moses Zor something right the truth is it's been a whole series of frozen accidents at apper bunch of weird reasons and it is what it is and it has very specific the functional attributes signaling system and its coupling to the economy very very specific attributes that aren't necessarily the sign a monetary system that very different attributes and it's also important to remember that until fairly recently a monetary policy monetary theory was a a big part of US politics right nine thousand nine hundred what's his name William Jennings Bryan ran on by metal. Thou shall not crucify mankind across the gold right you know carpenters and plumbers were talking about monetary theory at the pub right Now nobody talks. They think that are earned monetary system is just the monetary system and it's not so I ended up reading fifty books couple one hundred scientific papers on the topic related thoughts to how all coupled to society particular and then also to help finance the financial adult services industry had become a predatory beast that was essentially an industry that was manufacturing capacity for the purposes of increasing its share you're of the economy in fact that reached a high watermark grab two thousand six two thousand seven where according to some sources the financial will services industry including real estate and insurance was extracting forty percent of all corporate profits out of America right now. It's fucking nuts right. It's essentially a middleman ministerial industry that historically been taking ten to fifteen percent glow rich to me ahead now milk things up to forty percent and through that into my mixed too and I was thinking about all this for several years then late two thousand eleven I started writing it up a row ended up finishing it and I think in March two thousand twelve sixty five page fairly dense thing ah I called the tone at the time actually got called the root dot I circulated to a few folks including Jordan or other people. They all said Hey. There's something interesting thing here. What are we gonNA do about this? Let's get together so we all got together face to face in Stanton Virginia and said what the Hell should we do about this. I said well you know. One woman we could do is start political part in retrospect. It was kind of a naive idea. We didn't know about political parties and if anything we probably are exactly the wrong kinds of personality doing political parties you know more analytical thinkers and what have you not necessarily professional rabble-rousers. I I suppose I could probably be a pretty good professional rouser fiber so incline but I'm not so inclined and but then the last we went ahead and we recruited some other folks and through the summer and into the fall of twenty twelve we created this thing called the emancipation party interestingly it was was its website had been down. I don't know six months or a year but recently based on the conversation. Another podcast decided to bring the sucker back to life turned out. It was not nope twenty minute job and it's now back up a man's patient party Dot O. R. G. and we had a whole series of reforms that we proposing you know when you look at them. That's actually not a bad a bad group reforms to change the world we proposing in two thousand twelve something we call the citizenship citizenship wage which is now called that now called the universal basic income we were advocating a new money system right completely new trash thrashing current now very different Than Bitcoin blockchain public ledger type things but it was proposing time to actually fundamentally `and mentally change out our monetary system and we talked about sex money and politics we talked about radically reforming intellectual actual property. We talked about an end to the drug war we talked about universal healthcare talked about him in some detail. People WanNa see what some people were thinking about two thousand twelve and early two thousand thirteen go to the Mansa fasion party nine Oregon interesting stuff we also identified a a way to trigger such a transformation which is to start raising the idea of a debt jubilee McCain to a very interesting idea called the jubilee ratchet which works as follows as the fear of jubilee increases. Even if it's tiny people in financials in the financial markets markets think there's one tenth of one percent chance that a jubilee could occur in five years logically at least that Oughta eventually flow through to to a tenth of one percent divided by five point two percent increase in interest rates on five your debt over time as has swimming this political process then successful as the perceived risk of jubilee gets higher and higher than ought to raise interest rates and ratchet them up and up and up as they as interest rates go up due to fear of jubilee. Yes what more people get pissed off at the debt. Earn more people joined that do you believe movement which then raises interest rates again so you get a virtuous circle which I did some fairly humorous agent based modeling on I came came up with upper calculation that in eleven years it would crush the financial system obviously bullshit terms of an actual prediction but that dynamic model actually did work was implausible assumptions about recruitment than defection and things that are so anyway that was emancipation party we went out and tried to market it. we were abysmal failure like two hundred and fifty members or something and big business guys. It's not particularly good consumer marketers we said well. Let's find out why we didn't work. This didn't work too well so went out and talked to some of the people we've been talking to other people and we found that actually baby boomers kind of like this this thing Gen xers were okay on it. There was enough take their weekly backseat built out a pretty good size organization but was very discouraging was boomer. The millennials hated it hated it zero zero take great from millennials almost zero and we then decide hi. This is very interesting is obviously the future two thousand twelve was about millennials. Now it's about the next generation whatever they're being called and so he's not we drill into what millennials we're thinking we came to this big Aha the pure concept of a political party even in the head a bunch of righteous reforms which they mostly agreed with which are did did the idea itself political party was poisonous and they wanted nothing to do with something call political party and so that gets this is up to January twenty thirteen where we convened our group which is time was about twenty five people I think and how are we going to do here. Split the party. The idea doesn't appeal to millennials at all. He's not in the form that we're presenting. It and it's Kinda stupid to try to sell something. Just the boomers xers cancelled millennials. It's not the future so. Let's think about it at that. Point Jordan came up with an idea at the whiteboard he basically said more. We need is something that's not political critical at all but rather cultural and as an on ramp in his way of thinking about living that is different but nonetheless congruent ruined with the deeper ideas of the political party and we tested that very vague concept out with millennials and it was I guess out great and then we ask him. What did we just say? They didn't have any idea and that's actually been quite interesting to this day game. Be Is this karsulje empty bag that that people put their own beliefs hopes fears and the ambitions into so. It's kind of interesting so we started thinking when are some. I'm good things that might be in game be made some good work about it and then interestingly group itself kind of decided it was much more interested in this game. Be Whatever the hell was that it wasn't a political party and so the most of the energy probably seventy five percent eighty percent the people moved towards this game beeping and kind of all but we had some very interesting additional meetings face to face every six weeks in Little Old Stanton Virginia population twenty five thousand but truthfully we never made any great progress in rehabbing real specific about what game be it was other than it was the opposite of game which is the status quo all right another some basic agreement that would be different signalling systems intrinsically network based anti hierarchical peer based not hyper capitalistic mystic but probably market-driven. We're all mark. We believe the market is one of the great inventions of humanity but hyper financial is markets aren't I think we were unclear about what politics might be under gained be anyway so this thing starts to formula that runs into some problems which I have a heard from other people who've gone out. Some of the roads are not that unusual which we ended up with two dimensions of fissures in the group and this point the groom's maybe fifty people so it's not a huge group of people were actively working on this game be described the fissures to do you end up with four cells which that's weird over laugh. The first was the distinction between those people who thought that we need to be focusing on institutions. Like what is it better signaling network than money right or what's a better kind of money our money our was a better guy of societal governance market governance modality than first past the post elections with two political parties right so call `institutionalised tendency. It's a than the other was the personal change tendency says you know we can't even start to think about institutions. Still we change as people and that it's pretty strong division than there was a second division which basically were those who I don't know I guess you call the Woo Woo hoo source you know versus the scientific realists and of course there's some significant overlap between the personal changes Angel Wu's right but I will say that not all personal change people were Liu so again we had a complicated kind of fashion. Then turned ugly got real personal had to give people ninety day time outs screaming and yelling acquisitions accusations mutations of bad faith. I don't think there were actually any I do believe these were honest disagreements at least as far as I know but anyway after a while while we've got sick and tired of at least I did I think Jordan to we said fuck this shit right. If this group of fifty people can't go here then we need to step back raping and so I love Mike August two thousand thirteen. I'm like that we just said a aright There are some cool ideas here and basically communicate everybody think of game be as initial the thought about things that are different and away that could be that might save the world might be that social operating system that Avoids Avoids Ego side and you know mega collapse however we haven't got thought out each of you take these spores what we have laughingly left the base camp site up which was full of all stop including documents and videos powerpoint and invective all kinds of good arguments. It's all kinds of and feel free to hang out here and you know mine it for your own material but don't post anything. They're gonNA freeze them off. It's all there for three eight but the dissipation party or their mothers was game. This was the game be base camp site which still exists. I've kept it in frozen mode ever since it might it has some historical interest if game becomes life so take these spores go out in the world and if you're interested you know go do it you know or not and maybe in the future the spores will germinate and game be will turn into into something new and interesting and it's really not in many of the people did keep game be as part of their identity you'll see people here and there that have gained be on their twitter definition. It's a good friend of mine. Brett Weinstein is a game beer right basically on his own trajectory and I personally went off did other things to in January two thousand fourteen decided to deeply immersed myself in cognitive science cognitive neuroscience scientific study of consciousness and then soon got engaged in helping out projects in very advanced. Ai Ah artificial general intelligence and so I kind of went that way didn't think buck game be too much. I talked to Jordan talk this other people's octa Brat Ah no a couple of times a year and kind of let bay but they sports did continue to percolate out and I think in particular Jordan Hall met up with some new cast of characters and San Diego Daniel Schwarzenberger for slandering and a few others don't necessarily know you know who they are and I think they resonated with each other and they resonated with this core idea of gain be made done made a lot of progress in starting to fill out this what is it what the hell is this game no by no means even close the dot. It's still all right. Well you know everyone has their own kind of vision of what game bid but there's a a lot more to it now than there was before and somehow the call has gone out into the world tenuous fashion and I see the you know the game. NBA People start re coalesced what's resonated or it seems only recently last month or two like it seems to really picked up steam. Yeah I don't now I really don't have the I kept another thing going again mostly just as a crossroads for the old community game be group on facebook so type in game be in the search box. You'll find us. Something's happening. We had nine people apply for membership last night. It used to be like once a month. Something's happening. There's a group of people on twitter pulling together and trying to document gain be organized zoom meet ups and all kinds of stuff. I think Daniel Berger and Jordan have been moderately active doing a podcast and videos videos and stuff and I will say possibly my own podcast was a little ripple in space when I did back to back pretty deep interviews us on the Jim Rome show with Daniel Berger in Jordan Hall and Jordan at least believes that ripple may have been one of the little things that is caused as I said before a lot of different things going on at what seems caused something to start happening again but I would also not discount the real work for San Diego Group has been doing why only for a few years now actually have something to talk about and I think we have to talk about is interesting and valuable not not that I never even particularity but I think the fact that there is when people do say well. How is this the there's at least somebody out there who could start to answer? I think that makes a big difference as well and what have they figured out or what are they starting dance in is it more personal changes virtual faction or what what is it that this is of course you know punched myself right at the right answer in two thousand twelve two thousand thirteen is what it always is is in the social sciences both motherfucker. It's never nurture versus nature. It's nature and nurture in this case is personal change and its new institutions. I I will strongly credit the San Diego interpretation as they have really realize that and everything they do takes the two together right that we need new institutions but you know students aren't going to work at the people aren't right. you know the people aren't going to get the reinforcement they need to be right without the right institutions right in your the little bit of a chicken and egg problem but I do believe they sincerely understand both is the right answer. You mentioned breadline How do you think this game be compares in contrast to the intellectual dark web don't think they're calm? They're kind of been comparible incommensurate right they. They're compatible but they don't cover really the the same space I think of intellectual dark web as essentially fighting against stifling political correctness in serious discourse that is really the the core purpose and binding energy of intellectual dark web and we think that's important in Game Bay but other much more to gain be than a mere good faith discourse in you got habit but that's just the prerequisite and look if people involved in you know you'll actual dark web. It's from raving loony maniacs left-wing the right way and crazies very middle of the road people so I think it's an approach relatively narrow but important certain approach which is intellectual honesty irrespective what the you know the crowd thanks right and I support that but I would say it's a pretty it's touches Game Bay but it does nothing really wipe game bait and they might say that the one of my Zana that's sort of the Meta issue issue that if if you don't have intellectual honesty or the freedom to express views then figuring out a lot of these problems will be very difficult absolutely in fact. I'm working on a medium essay that it says that right now it's worth tolerating assholes like Neo Nazis and Isis to be able to have their say as long as Jordan Hall Daniel smarten Burger can also have their say the truth is if game be where to get some momentum the status quo it'd be fucking terrified right and they try to squelch so so you know we should tolerate free expression as long as little advocate violence or advocate illegal stuff to an amazing degree this. I'm I'm really pissed off at this emergence of the desire to censor everybody I think I think we used to have a consensus in the United States dates that as long as you're not threatening violence reading people dachshund or whatever you can say the most horrible advocate cannibalism go right ahead right but now there's there's this idea that we got to stifle it is well you know all those ideas are bat fucking hate Nazis anti vaccines that low the motherfuckers right happy with the cows come home on the other hand. I don't want our public speech. Platforms say oh you can't say anything. You can't be a you know face Nazi or all phase anti vaccine right instead. I like to see this not put my medium article a behavioral standards. Oh you can't advocate violence against any person or any group right you can't I would also go a little further and pick up on Karl Popper's poppers paradox of tolerance and say that at some limit you can't advocate eliminating freedom right at some point now of course it'd be pretty hard to be a an honest Nazi and not say you want to kill people eliminate freedom but that's all right if you can figure out a way to be an upbeat a Nazi and not advocate violence or taking away people's freedom have had it you talking to us is I don't care if you're an ass cloud by definition but you should have the right to your say so long as you don't violate behavioral norms and that's what I'm going to argue is what should be what the platforms are doing not picking and choosing the current favourite run favorite content based suppression of the day and Jordan's essays got suppressed by medium amazingly. If you saw that Brouhaha faulk I mean truthfully I disagree with Jordan ormat human on. I think it's an example of a schizophrenic insane collective intelligence network the baby we don't disagree but different perspective but yeah I don't think it was you know I am but absolutely without a doubt that was a good faith and intellectually deep attempt to explore the phenomenon and put it in the in in the context of distributed collective intelligence network and the medium should censor that and then even when Jordan appealed it turned the appeal appealed is an exemplary to me a what could happen if we let these Fox faces arbitrarily allowed to suppress things based on context set rather than the age limit. Let me ask you something of the game be go from here like how does it manifest. Would you predict what needs to happen. I don't know that's one of the things about game. Be It by definition emergent network base peer based and it'll be a little bit. I'm actually looking forward to see what will be here now. As new energy is suddenly showed up and intact I can announce was going to make official here later this afternoon. Jordan Hall has agreed to be the Admin on the game. Be Face Booker Awesome you you know he is you know until recently not been willing to take such a forward roll but I'm supposed to be on facebook's about anyway by Ebina such a good boy and appointing two new admins one of whom is Jordan and I think that maybe something interesting will come out of this this this interesting now cross wiring between the twitter a game the world who frankly Jordan. I didn't even know about right they somehow how existed out there and they've now discovered us and now we're showing up the facebook oils the game be based oil people are going over twitter her and forced the San Diego groups don't work away. Go very much work in progress and I think we'll see we'll see some interesting things. He's come up with over the next couple of years. I do think we need to have an stanchion at some point and we also I would argue about this is funny on the twitter. They're arguing about it. I think I'd throughout our I've been telling Jordan for a year. You ought to write a manifesto manifesto horrible. Maybe it's like a party to a millennial music festival. Catch it on a cracker. I don't know but I would like there to be some meat on the bones of what what Game Day is but doesn't control lock right. you know WanNa write a manifesto the right amount sesto three different manifestos get written great right. Nobody writes along the FDA right so I think we're at a moment where game be could form itself up in all kinds of ways and I don't really now what will happen. It's interesting to think about what what is the role of leaders in as a sort of pure German movement very interesting and this is something we learned from that game be World Jordan and I well we were clearly the leaders for a series of cultural reasons reasons decided to absolutely eschew the title right and in retrospect. I sort of think that that was a mistake or something. At least what we did wasn't right and you're trying to say there is no organization other than pure emergence agents from a pure peer based sort is naive. Humans don't work that way right. We look back at chimps chips. Don't work that way right now. I will say that classic Org Chart top down is anathema to gain be but one of the things one of the things game be has to you bet and this guy forced landry is no less well known than Jordan Daniel. He's been working on some extraordinarily interesting ideas is about how structure is created temporarily given considerable power but subject to veto at any time by the the by the community and ways to develop position in a sorority that comes and goes but at the end of the day is go under the control of the populace. I've also done some more for other reasons mostly up new crypto currency but then realize they also had some applicability doc ability to our political operating systems and a lot of work on the call liquid democracy written how many essays now three I think but the one on was really a good introductions actions called liquid introduction the liquid democracy on medium type them introduction to Liquid Democracy Jim Rod it'll pop up and the idea of liquid democracy is is we get rid of elected officials and instead everybody in theory can vote on every issue in something like a virtual legislature your head to practical just what it ain't but what makes it practical is that you can proxy your vote to other people presumably sleep more knowledgeable than you and they re proxy to people more knowledgeable than them and if this were to work correctly you'd end up with goats concentrated to people who are both knowledgeable and representing points of view that could then work out what the actual solutions would be in my own version of liquid democracy and by the way I did not invent liquid democracy. Some people think I did. I did not it's been floating around some guys in Germany I think Benedict Socio Pirate Party but I've added some twist to it for instance in my version you'd have multiple proxies maybe twenty five or thirty that may represent the equivalent of the cabinet level offices of the US government so education defense environment law and order healthcare etc and you'd have a separate proxy for each one of those could give your education proxy to your beloved Fourth Grade Teacher. Give your your healthcare proxy dear Dr. He'll give your defense proxy Sadie. Your uncle is a retired colonel airforce right and and see how that works right the other thing about democracy is you can retrieve your your your proxy. At any time you decide your uncle who is the retired Air Force Colonel Way too hawkish raise voting for bombing the shit out of people all the time for no good reason. Take that proxy away and give it the Noam Chomsky right or even if you want to and even on a very specific issue you personally can pull the proxy back and say I'm. I'm GonNa personally vote on whether we should go to war in Iran or not. I'm not GonNa let anybody have my vote for that. One issue and I'm thinking things like liquid democracy. He could be part of what helps game be actually coalesce. I'll warn people. I think. Democracy is a great idea but but it needs to be try. There's a whole lot of sociology amount that we don't know what would happen. I would be loath dried at the nation's at least the big nation state level anytime soon like the tried and cities counties Maybe a small country like Iceland population three hundred thousand. Maybe Ireland's someday then work your way out. If it works great we done so I do think that governance modalities need I need to be experimented with and this is where game can learn from the what's going on in the blockchain world a huge amount of work going on on things call the DA distributed autonomous organization now a lot of it's crazy shit right again driven by an ran hyper Libertarian fucking human haters in my opinion another and there's a lot of good work being done by good people that can be used in building social operating system. I would encourage their it'd be even more. There's a little bridge there. Today we'll see more bridge built between the Game Day community and the various interesting governance and signaling modality is being developed in the in the area of Blockchain Public Ledger smart contracts and distribute autonomous organizations and I think that would be a very important set of ingredients audience for looking looking for you really put some meat on the bones a game into that affected. We've we've left a lot of breadcrumbs in his episode. I'm excited or the the next hour so di Di di Di di. If Jordan said Hey Jim want you take the first stab at what the manifesto should be regained be. I'm curious how that would differ from the one you wrote in two thousand twelve twenty thirteen. If there's anything you'd add or editor or changer based on hooks. It'd be very different and frankly I'm not the right guy to pat to to write it. We talked about the fissures in game. Be Let me put my cards on the table right. I was and to a solid degree Still Zealand institutionalists and on the Wu versus scientific realists God's own scientific realists to to to coin a gross rose contradiction. Those are probably not the right polarities for Game B. is today and here. I'M GONNA I'm GonNa make a confession. 'cause I keep thinking. I say this. Not I'm going to say I'm going to say this anyway right. I MAY NOT ACTUALLY BE A game B. Personality right it may be that I will be a helper an advisor the game be but I may be too much of a crusty Alpha boomer to really be a good game be person right I don't have the kind of toleration for a a bunch of consensus Horse Shit right and blue stuff. We're spirituality. Spirituality makes me want to reach for my pistol. Uh Now I know Jordan has done some good work recently and redefining spirituality in a way that shouldn't cause me to reach for my pistol pistol but it's still causes me to reach for my pistol because it has the Goddamn words spirit in it right and I wish they would get rid of that word entirely because this I am a sworn enemy of metaphysical worship and when you start devere net direction I just think bad things come from it so for all those reasons probably have the right data right game be manifest that and I but I do look forward say who does right it not happy to be an adviser and I will say that there are some documents floating around which I've done some edits on and on the other hand there light edits and and by no means trying to say that my view the world right when I said my confession I may not be a game be person I may be a game Fan van boy right who's to set in his ways and and maybe just to Goddamn all to be a real game. Be Person Who I am. I got changed. Fuck that you're steel Mandy. we usually Jordan Zeneca job redefining spirituality How do you summarize his contribution or or have? I haven't looked at it as hard as I could but my a quick take is that he is essentially defining a spirituality U. S. Word of say the guy more they hate hate that fucking that what he's developing is interesting something not in two different from the earliest Buddhism of the Buddha the oldest halley cannon Buddhism before it got crusted with metaphysical for Shit you know the oldest surest Buddhism is essentially a tool kit from manipulating what we might now call our brain or our our consciousness or consciously small arbitrary but what we learn from a cognitive science and cognitive neuroscience managing all that shit to make casse more productive people. is what I think Jordan is getting at with the ass work with his new definitions of the S. word and I certainly hope so oh I just wish he'd brand differently. call it brain tolls right you know bring bringing tools for effective people what the Hell's wrong with that right but that's I think he's do I wouldn't swear to and in you in us into two thousand thirteen you you started focusing on cognitive science and doing research into consciousness business to where are you most interested they are what can we learn from your interest air. Wish more people knew about cognitive science. Were well one. I think the the work I've been doing is convinced me that sort of pop psychology is right most of the time it's wrong but in this case it is right that our conscious mind is only a tiny part of our mind right. It's very important a dozen things no other part mind can do but most of the neurons firing are not firing hiring in support of our consciousness there in vision or an auditory. They're keeping our memories alive. They're in consolidating memory and forgetting all kinds of stuff doc in a conscious cognition is a specific functional component which is absolutely so that's the pop culture version on on the other side. I take a strong view about what consciousness is salmon. John's sherline John Searle's philosopher from from Berkeley. His argument is that consciousness is a biological phenomenon that serves a purpose and there's I've learned more about the neural correlates of consciousness. It's after I come to conclusion that consciousness is both genetically and energetically expensive. Let's say most of the brain is in consciousness. Maybe fifteen or twenty percent of the brain is consciousness and that's a lot right and the genes to incur that is a lot and mother nature would not have preserve this consciousness thing if it wasn't damn used mad also been doing more and more research on the history of consciousness coming around to the view. The consciousness is probably existed at least from the days of the lizards right and maybe before that in fact the very interesting quote the title the ancient origins of consciousness how the brain created experience by hi Todd Feinberg and John J. O. N. Mallet M. A. L. L. Att this book does a great job of articulating dictating the history of consciousness taking aim explicitly surreal Ian this brand new book Civilian Perspective on consciousness and and explains what consciousness is for right and I think that's hugely important. I would also say that along with that is finally we know enough to say. Goddamn at Rutgers Rut was right all blue horse shit about consciousness fuck all that it's not necessary at all right. There's nothing magical agile here. Chalmers hard problem isn't actually hard not that I know the answer to it but it seems obvious to me that we when we understand functionally really how conscious cognition works is a biological system that has real work to do to preserve the life and and enhance the reproduction of animals animal starting with at least reptiles and maybe earlier it'll all become obvious and we won't need me Damn Woo about consciousness so that's that's some of my biggest takeaways and what are the implications of the of the pop culture that is only a small percentage of what's going on and why does that matter Why does that matter? I'm not sure does it but it is interesting that actually confirmed the pop culture of probably more importantly is the consciousness business is not a phenomenal right. It is there for a purpose in my particular model consciousness provides a series of conscious conscious contents falling Bernard baars will workspace model and probably more strongly than most. I argue that we then have the cursor of attention that jumps from one conscious content to another and what we think of his consciousness is really mostly. Just the motion ocean of this cursor of consciousness the can move about once every two hundred fifty milliseconds doesn't always move often it doesn't decide to stay on the same object but literally that what is the the playground of consciousness and when each item comes into attention that sends a whole bunch of signals from that object to memory memory frank the various memories we have and then they signal back up to the mechanism that uses the next item of attention that then there's a sign mechanism awesome which fires a affords or something you can do with an object right and initially those are kind of hard to learn to ride a bicycle but when you're like riding driving driving a car you know how to drive a car. The afford of being in your car is you can say okay brain. Call the program for drive my car and that's actually an unconscious damn close to unconscious just program with some exits to consciousness and so understanding how that architecture work does allow one teaches us how learn right you know teaches us that again. Some of the things we've heard from our teachers are indeed right. It's probably best not to jam rate solid hours. You probably ought to get up every two or three hours. Go take a break so awesome some consolidation you should also not be mad at yourself. You're bad at something when you're first starting it is initially you're forcing in your brain by horribly inefficient conscious cognition to do its thing right and the brain doesn't really want to like say learn how to take a bicycle parts of the first time six the shifter's right those west wind bikes ball done that the first time a fucking nightmare of obscure worship right but then you've done it six times. What are your is being doing while you're blocking your buddy? I'm your time with your eyes closed right and Bush's wishes just understand that that is how we learn and we should. I wish that more of this conscious kind of science kind of neuroscience was incorporated incorporated into the education departments that teach our teachers but unfortunately there forty or fifty years behind. It's sad actually we could be doing way better jobs with education if we knew about how the brain actually worked and and tip did apply things but I do believe that game be is GonNa do that game be has in its charter. You're a new kind of education. I would hope that they would be focused. I have heard about yet but I would hope that whoever's been cooking up or groups of people going up game be education make sure they saturate themselves in current state of the art knowledge about cognitive science and cognitive neuroscience and are there any other things that would be different if they fully understood that in terms of what else would be in that Education Charter Justin the Education Charter. I guess it would be different. If we fully understood cognitive. It'll be completely different true. I very much doubt it would be sausage factories right that the kids trade into like a little workers every morning and hop to in the bell rings all our expect to be extremely different and we'll go to school all time could be a lot more apprenticeship a lot more in the community Miam- see the return of the old community schoolhouse with kids of different ages who teach each other doc. I think it would be nothing like the current public school mop too. What are the other pillars of of game veto? He took a charter in general as understands of education is one of them. What are the other ones economics for sure and this one? I can definitely refer somebody to people to what place up some good thinking Daniel Sch Mountain Burger has written four essays called the new economic series one to four on his blog blog civilization emerging dot com. These things are great and they don't answer they cleaned a lot of picture picture about when it needs to be to be something that will you know revert to this race to death. Current cycle is in daylight about this lot you'll love I think we spoken for four hours about one era that this stuff is so I would say if if you want to see a wonderful exemplar of economic thinking which may or may not be right but it's a damn that exemplar go look back now and I was you you Oughta overlap with those folks where are your biggest disagreements with with Daniel and some of the tactical about the nature of economics for instance. Daniel believes that the new economics must not involve trade-offs that every move must make everybody better off. I say bullshit right right. Competition is natural normal the examples I gave imagine a town taking up the sport one plot and let's say this plumber is both expensive and this is not a good plumber and charges a lot. A new person shows up in town or just be traipsing by and happens to be good plumber and here's ears has downs got a expensive and incompetent Clark and so they come to town and they say hey. I'm happy to do plumbing at seventy five percent of what this Schmo the charges and I'll return your call with fifteen minutes and I do a good job right and very quickly one would hope good plumber drives bad plumber Outta tap right out of business lists now. That's a tradeoff bad plumber just lost his job and he and his kids guide finds up new to do and new plumber has benefit and the system as a whole I would argue has said it so it seems to me the idea they can eliminate trade. Offs is unrealistic but there's an example would what do you think this assertion or an analogy that maybe economic system needs to mirror how cells work in the human body. It's neither capitalism nor socialism elizabeth. Maybe what are the implications there are that we should get rid of private. Property is a well worth considering. He knows that a long time proponent of the market and he was actually a little bit afraid I think he thought that I would be a reflexive reaction against that idea. He tiptoed up to it very careful. I know out Daniel. I'm perfectly willing to consider that and I think it should be considered and whether that means eliminating every every single bit of private property or on one end maybe a moderate level is make all real estate common wheel Lakers are really good argument for that and there may be other things that that should not be private property so I think that's an idea well worth exploring. You should not say note that the idea but it needs work on how you do it whether it's Wrightson does it produce a society that we think is good and fair and congruent with human the nature now that carbon able to do believe there is human nature now on the other hand is way more flexible than some of these people we try to have a narrow human nature look policy. There's amazingly weird shit that humans have done to organizers society but the end of the day there are some sort of fundamentals seem seem to appear every society so gable would appear human nature and and what society's tend to be more congruent with the book called a human universals getting Donald Brown damn hard defy awesome at saw one five hundred bucks for it used on Amazon and he lays out hundreds of them but you know for instance parents are going to care about their children. There is not a lease the mother will care about their children in societies where sometimes if I don't even know his father right but mothers will care about their children attempts to work around that is really books in the early days or their ideological logical things with children should be raised taken from their parents raised together a peer group and I go visit their parents on Sunday afternoon for two hours but uh-huh we should truly try to break down relationship between the parent the child because all it does it replicate at patterns from previous generation well that didn't work at all right in Israel today on even the most severe bullets. It's still a nuclear family unit at everybody's much happier with that so so there is a there is an example another example is that there is in every known society a strong light veto to punish cheaters leaders right and there's actually even was called second order policing which they strongly veto to punish people who won't punish cheaters and sometimes unfortunately this could be co opted for quasi fascistic purposes but on the other hand. It's almost certainly a necessary necessary attribute of a coherent society that isn't Paris to ties by game theoretical problems like free writers right at the Santa Fe Institute Jessica Flack has done a lot of very interesting work on policing in the most general sense police doesn't mean dude in a blue suit with a night stick but it means a mechanism to do you know 'cause sanctions against people who break the Covenant to The the group norms in such a way as to yeah produce harm for others and benefit for themselves so there's two that stand out very clearly and you know again the the some of the more hippie type sue police was horrible knows you gotta have policing be cops but you don't have policing tear guarantee date or side's GonNa go to Shit Right. He went to any of those occupy sites. We I went to saw they've literally went to Shit Shit in the bushes. You Know Shit on the grass ratchet on the sidewalk. They were afraid of policing. They didn't want to be fascist. Fascist policing so human nature says has you gotta have policing in some fashion. There's just too and there's a bunch of young to education economics at any other elements of the charter that that are discussing a huge one is conviviality. I think this is the one that is closest to Jordan's heart. At the moment I think much I'm talking about explicitly talk to him about something he and I talked about is part of Dr Dialogue for how many years now eleven years is one of the worst things about our current. Society is the breakdown of Rich multi-modal face to face society nothing pisses me off worse the walk into a bar and see four millennials sitting around a table with beers in front of them on our fucking little fat right. I just want to smack him upside the head. I'm not exactly a game beat the personnel right now degree of Mike Base. I don't actually do a redneck. South wants ago asshole. You shouldn't be out here with your friends Tali in fucking texting conviviality how to be in the moment with other people have an everyday society so that every day many hours spent in enjoyable interaction face to face with other people who you hold in esteem and who you respect and who you lost and I think that is we get that door. That's GonNa attract people so strongly that the rest of the stop will be worked at it will be easier because I believe that people don't know it but they are starved for often authentic conviviality so go back to your if you may not be manifesto but if you edited your manifesto you're twenty twenty thirteen would be at different or added or changed based on either West happened the world slash. You've learnt occupy torn is not even commensurable truthfully that thing thing was aiming towards especially version I sent you which was the third edition which rose rewritten substantially after the emancipation party was birth those really short of a deep background on what political ideology in the form of a party might look like and that's not what game is going to be so it would be structurally emotionally every in every process why very different again I wouldn't attempt to try to you. Turn a helicopter into a donkey or something just make no sense right that will be even gaining gave me aside and we'll get some of this tendency in that manifesto have nephew radically changed your mind on from or have played out in different ways said Oh if I was trying to make a new political party today or if I was just edited in those ideas the one thing I would do is I would bring the game be flavor to them much more I would pay more attention to uh not hire our whole peer based Governance you know we don't really go into that and as original document in any great degree you know for instance you know in the new monetary system. There's a thing called the book interest rate which is key to how it works If if I were thinking about that today I would spend a shitload of time deciding. How is that set right? I think I just naively I'll use the Friedman rule right. Okay well who determines that's right our exceptions done. I was been much more time thinking about the end of the engines of governance things like liquid democracy things contribute autonomists organizations and pay much more attention to that rather than the substance of policy in addition to the substance of I think the I do think that the substances are important mostly right but but it needs a lot more work on how can this be governed governed in a way that's non catchable by bad actors and is perceived by most to be in their interest and fair and transparently sup another way you refer to the game be as the search for the fifth tractor. Get any talk a little about the main idea behind that the idea the of search of the fifth attractor nother essay by me type in fifth attractor Jim Rut into Google and you'll find it on medium and I will warn you. It's about five years old and even worse. It's mostly a transcription of a talk. I gave a year due before that so it doesn't represent state of the art version my thinking but still pretty good so the idea is the following that a social operating system is a basin of attraction. We call it in complexity science think of it as a series of bindings endings between Cultures Society media finance everything that constitutes our society and it is a bolt and imagine the current state of of our society is a marble in that all right and things are always jiggling around the marbles moving around in the bowl and and from time to time big shocks happen either exogenous shocks Yeah uh-huh Shit Mir big meteorite hitter huge electrical storm broke down on the grid across all kinds of weird shipped happened inside the bowl or endogenous things happens yeah suppose we have a financial collapse way bigger than the last one right Sposa Boese. US and China get into a nuclear war over Taiwan this fall Sunday start shaking and shake it happens in marble which is the current current state of our society and eventual Speights. Those fly out level also add is a metaphor that the bowl sides can come down and I would would argue that our depletion of ecosystem constitutes a reduction of the sides of the bowl. You know it's kind of scary that the mass ass of humans plus domestic animals is now way greater than the mass of all other mammals on earth put together and that's in an era where we're only eighteen percent of humanity is living in the OECD advanced countries if everybody else demands a middle class lifestyle we're fought right at least within the current paradigm. The what's another way of the other way that the bowl sides come down is supposed to turns out and I'll talk later on this not sure that it will but suppose social networks a social media turns out to have poisoned our ability to think right the world is so full of fake news bad faith discourse and Horse Shit that we literally stop being able to make good decisions as a polity not not as part of lowering the sides of the bowl and by itself alone because tomorrow fly out so we have gained just call it a bowl marble flopping around moving around. It's always changing but a big shock happens indulgence. I E interior executives. Some combination to ball goes flying lineout. Where does it land well? in a higher dimensional stage one could think of a whole series of dimples on a rubber sheet where the marble might land or a whole bunch of bowls laying around there at the bottom of dimples on a rubber sheet the bowl of bounce around for a while but eventually would fall into so when identified pre existing attractors are out there. I came out with Kim and four and I don't like any some review what I call. The four attractors actors are number one entering the I wrote this twelve two thousand twelve fourteen before China was quite the big deal it is now I is neo-fascism and I argue that China is actually neo-fascist call so causes self marxist-leninist but it's authoritarian militaristic mystic nationalistic dictatorial controls media. It's Aachen fashion straight and you know it SORTA works right at least so afar and it presents a possible alternative should the west lose faith in itself. Where might it go it could fall into neo-fascist weaker versions of it with Putin as an example Maybe a possible emergent ones in places like Hungary but let's call China the great example of neo-fascist another one definitely alive and there are millions billions of people know. Maybe a billion people in the world. I like it which is neo dark ages the Odyssey right and you know as a scientific realist. I think all religions were shit so I don't pick and choose amongst them. They go oh. You're anti Islamicists will also anti-christian anti-jew Anti Hindu. I hate them all right but anyway there are are fanatics and all those religions that would love to have at the Aussie and one could see extreme events that our society fall into a theocracy and and we saw what happened in the last time that happened we basically lost a thousand years of progress and that could happen again reading a book look right now but is good technology that walls white a lot on what happened and what didn't happen. During the Middle Ages the third one is neo feudalism. That's my name for hyper libertarianism hyper libertarianism connected with hyper finance and network effects right and when I would argue is that a very small number of people even smaller number than today essentially own everything force everybody else to the to the edge of existence they have a small cadre of nights. Maybe ten percent of people to enforce their will on the ninety percent surfs and you know Peter Thiel sitting there at the top lorded over everybody I nice and so I think that's a possibility particularly after a period of chaos I could you know these transitions aren't necessarily directly from one to the other but the marble may wander around for a while before it falls it so we might go into the fourth one which is chaos. I where it all just breaks down right right and that's happened from time to time in China plenty times a fair amount of it happened in Russia after the fall of Soviet Union didn't fall to all the way but it felt sorry ways to chaos and released a few months none of the entities that we're supposed to do things did anything when you call the Fire Department nobody game I right and let's say a bigger fall into chaos. my prediction is not some form of stable anarchy but by maybe me David Graeber convinced me on raw but more likely I criminal gangs then warlords than dictators right and then maybe neo feudalism controlled by so there's four attractors neo-fascism neo dark ages neo feudalism hyper libertarianism and chaos and I go I don't like any of those Goddamn and so therefore our duty as enlightened people is to build the fifth tractors why you tend to use this phrase in search of the fifth attractor of course it's totally arbitrary of lot more than four Batta detractors in more than one good attractor. Just keep it simple like all sorts of the tractor and that I think loosely speaking could be gained a hey by the way maybe somebody else does another better attractor and in my model the fifth attractor allows for that it just says somebody needs to ability better attractor so that when the marble flies out of all it has a place the Lan that had that produces a society and this is a Jordan Jim Ism I forgotten about this Jordan gymnast. I like this which is an other another people contribute to this as well coming up with this motto for the late e P I think thank netface party. which is we will create a society in which we are a happy to live in an proud to leave to our children right? If it's getting beat with grant Green Bay has a real chance it'd be that but somebody else could come up with the fifth attractor and I would just say generically. We need the tractor that has we're done I so it is ready to go at need and we're sir. Democratic neoliberalism fallen into this is one of the four or is it. I would say that the collapse scenario it fails goes away on the other hand. I have not given up all hope for Democratic Liberalism. Now Neil is neoliberalism. I do believe is done but before get internal contradictions are such in terms of ever-growing wealth inequality quality in terms of these things. We were just talking about earlier about the platform companies trying to suppress discourse that is art of Neo Liberalism Neoliberalism L. Liberalism is done. I hope it is but a reformed enlightenment liberalism that allows the marble not to fire out of the bowl could still happen not very optimistic about it. Particularly over the last couple years the whole world seems gone nuts but it's still a decent at still late acceptable path for people to work on but truthfully I would put it as a minority trajectory versus the marble flying out of the bowl sometime between tomorrow tomorrow afternoon in the year twenty one hundred totally deleted religion playing for second year era. You mentioned your Brett Weinstein. He has this view that religion legend has sort of a metaphorical truth that is not literally true but if you believe that your life is better I think surprising what he describes the metaphorical truth religions. Do you think that's hog wash or I think that's definitely true exactly the same way. four year old bleeding and Santa Claus makes the four year old. There's no there's no contradiction between something being utterly false and tactically useful. I just think it's a bad way to design a social urgel operating system and so what are you he described Moore you mean when you say social operating system this basin of attraction Gamay a social operating system it doesn't call itself that and it wasn't built by anybody and evolve right and game de will evolve and it was going to build game big right they singer too complicated implicated to build we kind of garden and nurture them to grow together highly multidimensional mentioned. It's the educational system. It's the culture it's this signaling systems. It's the Mark Steyn analysis. It's the ownership of the means of production. It's what do we have private property or not where it's a whole bunch of eggs is the social operates as you mentioned that you wanna see sort of no more political political parties that you wrote wrote a post about it. You said the group that you think is the most interesting stuff is Lawrence lessig. What do you think what what could replace political parties ladies are how'd you how'd you reform that? If we get less than it was in a particular context of particular time and I believe Leszek was doing the best good. I don't know what he's doing. Now and I wrote that was back a couple of years ago about getting money out of politics he had a really well designed plan and I think Elizabeth Warren is adopted part of to get money out of the current political system so let's put that to one side. That's the fix on the current shit show which might allow the current shit show to reform itself sufficiently to keep the marble in terms of my stronger analysis which led me to liquid democracy or potentially some form of distributed autonomous organization but I've yet to see one that passes ask my smell tasks but not safe enough. It seems to me a rather unnatural thing for us to get ourselves. Ultra agitated about politics and have elections like we do. It's not necessarily back and read that essay and you can see that every decision that's made by political entities could be made in a calm and and and continuous fashion without these cliffs all the time and these cliffs don't do us any good they bring out the worst in our nature team when I call him team red hadn't team blue and when you listen to these people on these social media networks it contradicted. There's no ideological consistency right. How can you be in favor of free speech? go how can be your favorite Increase patient opposed to for the right to keep and bear arms right for how can you be. How can you oppose abortion but be in favor of capital punishment? Yeah you can in some statistic way. Get there but the truth of the matter is the reason these these bizarre Dr Teams Form because their teams right there like soccer teams football teams team Eighteen B team red team blue and they have a game theoretical radical ability to attract approximately half the vote and that is a fucked up way to run a politics much better better to give your your proxies out to people who believe what you believe and vote on the issues you care mouth away you would vote if you vote yourself and they may be seemingly seemingly incoherent from the perspective of team red team blue but does not mean you are incoherent just means those teams seem reading team Bluer and go you're not you. The person into liquid democracy doesn't rely on on a public that is sort of epistemological modest about not what they do or do not know or or what would what needs to be successful. It needs only two things the bunch of control systems. It needs to avoid fraud but let's say at the core. I think you hit you hit on one of them. which is a general sense? Cancel Christopher logical modesty in. I'm more about more things that ninety nine point nine nine percent of people but I would proxy probably twenty eight you gotTa my thirty proxies right. which is I know that I don't know nearly as much as the experts in education and defense and healthcare do so festival article modesty and the ability to sense the gradient to people who know more than you did? That's all it also takes. Some people are sort of advocating for their utopia as sort of a a thousand Singapore's thousand Israels or smaller cities steady states or countries run from effectively by Israel was unlikely What do you think about Zeo driven countries where you have significant anything less voice but significantly higher exit and so you could just eat a company sort of our cities go to compete over you the way Apple Google compete over you just by making the the first first step to the nightmare of neo feudalism? Why is that because it's pure money driven right and the guys with the money make the rules that's right and remember feudalism with very diffuse Europe had five thousand sort of what you'd call legal entities in the year one vows yet so that's just that's the the road to fueling the inherent problems wasn't is increasing inequality UNIDOs impaired something hideous vile and evil emigrant and here's why because you can say oh? Yes you have the right to exit but that's theoretical. That's Libertarian think right in reality people are grounded to a place ace there grounded to their conviviality to their social network and those things matter a shitload more than some theoretical right to exit and so this is an inhumane humane inhuman ideology was should be rejected root and branch and in general go back to Iran the what do you think is sort of the crux of what they fundamentally misunderstand. Maybe they got some things right. But why would they not fully appreciate the just what I I said that life is more than economics number one way more than economics and in fact it's way way more than economics in fact in my contractor has said I came up with a little metaphor. I liked a lot and if the little graphic which is you know think of the market in a good way as a furnace heating eating your house right. We've constrained it. It has a little place in your house but your house is much bigger than the furnace but if you think about hyper unrestrained capitalism we think think of a fire burning down our house where the fire is the thing and the House is secondary to the fire and so I think that's the first biggest mistake that libertarians make the second and they all make it nine made it when I was a libertarian who was one. I'll say I'll fast to that for many years. Is that even if we understand I intellectually don't understand that gut level that humans live on a battle bell curve on every attribute you can possibly match right you know yes if everybody we had the cognitive ability of at the one hundred thirty is you had an MBA from fucking Harvard yeah let the law of contracts. Let's go. I still think we fucked up result but at least it wouldn't be fundamentally unfair. Today we have is IQ one thirty people designing sucked locked up traps the fuck over people with accuse of ninety. I can think of few things that are more immoral than that you know the whole banking system is goddamn overdraft or shit which is sucking money out of people's pockets point systems. It's all smart people designing ways to suck over dumb people and there are always going to we dump people and there's always gonna be lots up and People Libertarians forget that and we have to have a society in which everybody no matter what set of endowments announced they got can live a life of dignity honour productivity belonging and conviviality they completely forget about uh-huh and when people talk about the problems of democracy in Apol- The choice principle agent problem or just age Moxie seems to be fallen out of favor favor hasn't worked the Middle East etc when they talk about those problems with maxine. It'd probably underlined Godsey. Does this liquid democracy get those I think it does a luxury one. You don't have the release grossly attenuate the agents problem right because you can recreate you can retrieve your proxy at anytime I would expect appear to be services that would merge is all votes by everybody and every altria proxies be transparent and so he could get a service for two dollars a year which would essentially send you weekly how your proxies are doing right. Oh I've said these are my values. Are I mean this guy used to be there. Now now. He's drifting very much like in folio management style drift in a portfolio claim. They're a value stock but wait a minute. They're lording there or follow up with growth stocks right and if you've ever looked at institutional investment performance reporting key core is style drift in your refund managers and so I could see those kinds of services emerging naturally huge this. Maybe the biggest of all is is is the epistemological modesty problem. Jason Brennan has written a very fun book called Inst- democracy a great book a little bit tongue in cheek but I think actually means it. You know he goes in great details. Citing the research amazingly stupid in political issues your average America's you know like a majority of Americans believe close during couldn't even tell you whether the Democrats Republicans are more conservative right. It's it's just amazing and but we should just acknowledge that. Why should people care about that shit right? They WANNA live their lives. They don't want to be involved in the the inside baseball on how some six in the depreciation allowance says allow the oil companies rip off another ten billion dollars right why the hell would any normal person be interested in that or even being able to know how to evaluate something would be interested in that so I think that the argument against democracy that most people are clueless is actually a good argument but liquid democracy is at least in theory the answer assuming that some reasonable percentage adage people have a decent knows for the gradient for the person that knows more than they did and what gives you confidence that people who will be clueless will also be modest oddest about their closeness is people love having opinions about stuff that they know nothing of action you know a lot of education about some of the things that are in Brennan's book and in some of the other books on the topic and in Magin Public School education if you know we focus on the fact that this is what people actually know which ain't much and why in the world should maybe you know electing the guy with his finger on the nuclear trigger that unsee we have this new system called liquid democracy where it's your duty as a citizen to look around you and see who do you trust who you think knows more than you do about these issues and to in good faith if your proxy people who know more than you do and you believe represent. was that your bags so it'd be it's education culture. It's always those things ageless wisdom of the crowds more modesty for the crowds and the fact that there are people that know more than than as I said you know if there were thirty proxies I guarantee I talked to at least twenty eight up. Maybe all thirds and more than ninety nine point nine nine percent of Americans about right but I still don't know expert level things about a lot of it. I WANNA get into some of your thoughts lots of money in particular you in the last decade that seven years with the rise of Bitcoin has been arrived is in in Austrian economics or resurgent because I should say of Austrian economics and I'm curious where your views on money and and you know the financial system overlap in contrast with with and with Austrian economics well well well familiar with the Austrian economics sort of think how that works now in terms of my dividend money system mm-hmm what you can find on Youtube type in Jim Rut dividend money. I do propose the freemen role. which is that the money supply why grows at the average? GDP and you'd have to pick a number and say Plus Two plus two percents say GDP grows at two percent Ed plus two is four percents bylaw money supply growth or present. Nobody can change that now. As I mentioned I have not given sufficient thought to the governance mechanisms to make sure that would be true with some of the people in the blockchain world. Ask so I do believe that there is some real utility to taking the money supply lever away from government on the other hand. I don't like giving it to backs. I mean this is the dirty secret about our current system that most people most people don't own if they did there probably revolution tomorrow ninety percent ninety-five percent in the UK of the money that comes into circulation is created by banks on their own balance sheets with their pet right all new money except for a small amount is manufactured by commercial banks then loaned out four injuries right. Why should that be wouldn't it be much better to have the new money either we want to keep prices stable come into the economy as a dividend social dividend each citizen pro rata by my calculations a`reasonable level of GDP growth and the freemen role of rape plus to the Rock Friedman rule rate plus two people get out was or three thousand dollars a year per person a new money flowing into their account which were then disseminate into the into the system to provide demand stimulus in two ways one? It's to the people so they define what it is not to the banks and second it doesn't require any the interest that then becomes a burden on the whole economy to support the money supply not to say there was not to say that I'm supposed interest or should still be banking but it should be what's called one hundred Percent Reserve Bank right essentially investment pools right. I have some money I want to give to a bank to lend out the people I give them literally. Give them the money they lend it out at interest. They may be some lower interest rate and there's a whole bunch of really good work on one hundred percent reserve banking is named White George Mason University Lawrence h white he goes through a whole series this detailed recipes how you can do everything that financial services does today that at least is fraudulent or pernicious and do it in the hundred percent reserve banking model that were that were run plan calls for not in terms of the blockchain world. They're very different but the other hand. There's so many different prohibitions their airfreight. Let's take the first one bitcoin a brilliant bit of math. I mean read statistics paper her. Maybe three or four months after came out of Holy Shit and further it was kind of Darwin I go. Why didn't I think that it wasn't the hard right but it was brilliant thought of it and it was like however bitcoin itself I think is very pernicious? it's basically it's it's basically designed to be like gold and so it's like gold at worst essentially right and it only has one of the worst because of mining name right gold-mining Lee sometimes the goal line shut down in the in Bitcoin because the way they re set set the level the effort all is that the mining continues to accelerate the heat death of the universe all the time right without ridiculous five percent of the market cap of Bitcoin. Every the year goes up the smokestack electricity. It's insane even the US fractional reserve banking system. Is You know a percent that or or two at the most so you know bitcoin is way worse than even our own ineptly design a monetary system and and the other thing is it's terrible in that it's deflationary deflationary money supply again is a landline Brandon's the Austrian zoologist we'll just Algebra. I didn't do the out and you can do the relationship self through this humans down and Gresham's law is true and they will hoard money it grows over time they'll spend money that it's lights and so in the off the money will will collapse in a deflationary money system like Bitcoin so those two third. It's the exact opposite of what it ought to be which is potentially anonymous us and I think it should be the exact opposites be radically transparent. I'd like to see every bank account in the world to be real world readable when that the interesting right maybe have a small amount of vice money. It's not transfer that's that's not transparent but all the big money ought to be transparent. I like the literally watch the flow of thoughts from every single person I think you'd have a hell of a lot better society if people if that's what happened bitcoins quite the opposite and in fact when I think about the use cases of bitcoin joins there's only really one good one which is the collection of ransoms or pernicious computer hacking. It's perfect for that right but otherwise oh I don't see a good use case forbid point. It's expensive. It's slow it's cumbersome. It's It's a failure cronin. The mode of people losing their private keys which has been a huge amount of loss of the private ease already and will be more over time. It's just a not not useful for any real economic purpose except collecting ransom WH- value if you're in Venezuela Greece in you don't trust the just the currency eh temporarily it might be while the greater fools are greater fooling but I'd rather use goal and much stronger storable a pattern for being a store of value and what I frankly prefer people do is invest their money in useful productive assets right by Lan Dan Right now. You're going to have value land by business by apartment. Building right other people do the same you know storing value you sterile assets of money does no good for anybody we want our economic surplus to be spent on productive assets particularly on creating meeting new productive assets not in the sterile form of money which does nothing for anybody talking about having markets without having hyper financialisation financialisation of his markets. What does that look like? How would that work? I'm not sure but I would say one thing is there should be very strong counter-pressure to size we think about the theory of markets in a funny market purist. They've forget the Italian. Oh yeah all that mathis markets are highly efficient. They assumed some things that aren't true. Earn markets which is that everybody has complete an equal information and equal orchid power and that nobody has market power which essentially means there's lots of players we allow huge concentration markets. You know the inbev controls trolls forty percent of the beer market they control not only the price on the sail up here but they also control the price on ingredients so called Munaf cine which is the opposite it should be very rigorous counterforce to largeness in economic units. I have a very simplistic proposal may or may not be a good one but I'll just throw it out there which is the gigantism tax any company that reaches a billion in sales pays one percents of their revenue per billion of their revenue per year capped at twenty ninety percent so a company of fifteen billion era revenue is saying one is paying fifteen percents of their revenue or two point two five electrical five five billion tax on their gigantism right and that tax citizen's dividend and is recycled per capita. Go back to the citizenry and if you WANNA be big debate but you better be really good ad big outcompete smaller entities that are big hit by this gigantism Santa's tax. I'm involved with a bunch of some pretty big sized companies and I tell you the dirty little secret. Many big companies don't need to be big as there are not because you have to be big to be a media company. These are aggregations of a bunch of small properties. mostly using tax manipulation some the buying power in advertising and a few other things is there was even a modest ten percents gigantism maxim they would bullet right back up the it's the separate pieces instantly same Walmart. There's no reason a retail store needs to be gigantic reason the retail store business operated the level of your county right and there'd be some wholesalers hierarchy wholesalers. Maybe there's a big they can survive under the gigantism tax but maybe they wouldn't be and you know same with restaurants. You don't talk about that right. We got along fine for her. long-time gigantic multibillion dollar restaurant chains starbucks suck starbucks right in my little town. We ain't got no stinking starbucks. We've got four Independent. Maybe five now independent coffee shops down. We do have a starbucks Orbach's hop on the interstate but that's basically for the tourists that drive. Would you have antitrust How would you prevent this? Why an ad I the anti gigantism tax right and you know started starbucks survive you know seven or eight percent tax on its gross revenue growth rebel dachshund high fuck attacks right? It's it gets you where it hurts. The worst biggest survive against the little guy with that well maybe okay right but then I would also added much more rigorous antitrust it as a starting place unless there's a compelling reason I would say no company was sales over a billion dollars in by another company with sales over fifty billion dollars Barrett now that may be some cases word in the public good for that to happen but it'll be their duty proven guilty until proven innocent on big companies buying other companies period there to extract monopoly rents while the fuck. You think they're doing right another thing. You've you've got deep on is complex systems in complexity science and you guys up on it but obviously a lot of research. I don't think about it. What do you wish the public or just generally understood about complex systems are complex designs and my biggest takeaway way at the one? I hope that anybody who seriously studied complexity takes away is how unpredictable the future is right that by their very nature deep scientific reasons systems that consist of the dance of lots of lower level components are very difficult to predict very a far into the future particularly when their strategic I e social systems thing that makes social systems different than physical systems bunch of billiard balls bouncing around the table one of them suddenly decide that trick the other when you get the social systems humans are figuring out how to game the system there in all the time and when you add those elements into a complex system the ability to to say with any precision what's going to happen out really far. is very much so so I would say a predictive modesty is the biggest thing people should take away but they shouldn't give up they shouldn't become Niles on the other things that were learn from my own work and studying the work of others as agenda and they don't catch every detail they're not right and no one scenario. A model is correct. You'll be bill so casting mom how you can get some ideas about the variants of the ensemble results. Are we in a situation where results are fairly similar arena system or sometimes it goes like this and sometimes it goes like that. I think that's very much worth thinking about when it comes to apply systems thinking to operate social operating systems the again modesty is the first Rul yes. It's great to have an should stop for owned puts markers but maybe strongly on we stated but you hold it legally be ready to change have an experimentalist perspective try stuff and I don't think that you can predict three levels has been direction in a complex system. You People's Robert Wright has become non zero. We're talking about history has a direction and it goes towards increasing increasing social complexity over time and that his implication is that we either need to globalize effectively or they'll be utter chaos but what what do you think of the underlying principle history having a direction or or unlikely direction yeah. I think that's the way this is a likely direction. one of the things about evolution is that increased complexity is not a guaranteed result right and we know the creatures that become less complex which is quite interesting but it does seem to be an empirical fact that the universe has gotten more complex and once we transitioned transitioned over to our kind of life where we had high fidelity replication Darwinian evolution kicked in then there's been are definite ero towards more and more complexity and said. I don't believe it's a necessity but it is the way to Bet Daego league going forward what what are some of the biggest questions our biggest topics of interest that you are trying to answer for yourself and then you're on research in your own thinking while so thinking first wrench globalization. I think I've gloat one global governments about idea so we have at least these three planets right. I I liked competition. I like that you know the proof gauge it. Was You know it was wonderful that Marxist Leninism had to compete with liberal democracy. There have been one global government had been Marxist Leninist fuck you ever get out of that but the fact that liberal democracy could demonstrate over a period period years it was vastly superior was but on the other hand we are now confronting a whole series of global level questions. You can cook it all down to climate change. Dry can't solve climate change that we're fucked right so whatever it is we need to do at the global level has to be that would be demonstrably sufficiently strong to solve the solve climate change and I don't know the answer there you know it may be cooperation at the nation nation state level as a as a for instance you know a hefty and rising carbon tax but then also that has a carbon terrace earth so if my country has a twenty five percent carbon tax that's more explicit two hundred dollars a ton for carbon tax yours dozen. If you want to import anything into my country. I'M GONNA slap tariffs on your imports equal to more than two hundred dollars per tonne of carbon. Maybe you get emerging coercion that way. I'm not sure but it is a huge question to me. 'cause we don't solve that problem. We're fucked walk but I am not happy with the idea of a world government as the way to solve it. What's your punchline of why a liberal liberal democratic liberalism is is failing or is decreasing in popularity or asthma in working in other countries have been trying to there's been corrupted? Ah is people figuring out how to hack it with money and it's it's totally corrupt outside of the the advanced west and it's significantly corrupt in the advanced West globalism for instance was a con job done on the people for the benefit of the cap and and was done to our politics right of course people should be fucking pissed off. Amazing guillotines on the street has neo-fascism working not at all in China well one. They have the advantage of their in catch up mode right. We know that if your economy is less energetic they can advance than the most advanced countries in the world. You have a huge windfall of technology you could just imitate if you're also a very tightly controlled dictatorship an excellent spicer as he grabbed steal stuff and so they have had that advantage they also but but that may not be all it may be that particularly in this era of social media that being a dictatorship has some functional advantages. I'm not sure I hope I'm not but it might deter. They can do a better job of policing bad faith this course of course on the other hand they can be that fate this course so it's a young gang gang. They're completely benevolent dictator. Maybe it would be okay but of course we know from history of James Madison and others the idea of a benevolent dictator may happen for awhile but it's not the way to bet for the last in the Wachter so it's like it's too early towel. If the Chinese neo-fascist model is actually stable we won't know until they come closer to advanced Western country level of per capita income while to see how we choose to adapt to do the poisoning of our discourse and how we learned to police it in a way that's congruent with our social norms in our political. Let's see if we can we can't we might be up doc last punchline close what enabled capital to corrupt politics was deregulation was at the the rise love of markets just brought generally culturally would enable it to disrupt the political system. It's funny I think again multiple multiple pieces and it was evolutionary and I think interestingly and this is where Libertarians are right semi libertarian France as well. We wouldn't have to worry about the money dropping politics government were small when government got bigger after World War Two it became a much bigger win to corrupt right and as the regulatory state started to grow more intense in nineteen seventies and onward they became much more measurable economic benefit into suppressing or corrupting the regulatory process your personal story when I came in as CEO network solutions we are in the middle of quite a food fight with the US government about our contract to operate the domain name system berry political all kinds of factions fighting on Capitol Hill and that was not supposed to be my area four to I didn't know Dick Right but I looked into people that we're doing. We're doing so they're not fighting anywhere near art not because they all have a vested interest in careers in politics right. They can't be full lasts. All I could be apple last all right 'cause I don't give a shit by never been the good graces of a political local person again and I quickly realized we were understanding lobbying roasted I tripled are lobbying but one year sure because it was so cost effective to corrupt the institutions of politics it paid off so obviously well at least for software options. These were campaign contributions in return for listening to us but the matter is on an issue that the general public has no interest in understand understand in the slightest the

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Brooke speaks with Lulu Miller about her new book, "Why Fish Don't Exist."

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31:55 min | Last month

Brooke speaks with Lulu Miller about her new book, "Why Fish Don't Exist."

"WNYC studios is supported by Zuckerman spader a national litigation firm advising companies and business disputes, internal investigations, and commercial matters. When the lawyer you choose matters most online at Zuckerman DOT com. I'm Tansy Vega hosted the takeaway recovering issues that matter to let the voters right now, and we want to hear from you eight, seven, seven, eight, six, nine, eight to five, three John Nossa, Lotto CSI autrocities Norway, or those sink went by Thrace. Listener. supported. W. nyc studios. Hi. I'm Bob Garfield with an OT 'EM podcast extra. But I, this thought here we are rounding in government lawlessness trembling about political violence fearing for the future of democracy itself and on the media we frequently meditate over the role of the press amid such unprecedented mayhem whether by simply reporting on the outrages, we fulfill a reactionary narrative of bias whether we get distracted by daily tempests or get tricked into platforming scoundrels OTM explores these issues but. In so doing fulfills yet, another role listeners constantly tell us amid an epidemic of gas lighting that we help them feel saying we are watchdogs. Yes. But also emotional support dogs calming their anxieties with our mere company. You've told us over and over and over that we give you strength and so we ask intern that you help us stay strong please become a sustaining member. Now your contribution is essential. Here's how to help and thanks very much. Hi this is Caccia. Rojas executive producer on the media and I'm here with the details on how you can help on the media this pledge drive. So we have a brand new on the media branded mosque for eight dollars a month. This mask could be yours for ten dollars a month you'll get to see you can wear them even ones in the wash. Go on the media dot and go to donate or text. Two seven, zero, one, zero one. Thanks so much. In, reviewing the nation's continuing effort to take stock of the least lovely bits of our history and the so-called champions that enabled some of the ugly bits we turn briefly to Stanford University, which recently announced it would be renaming Jordan hall named for David Starr Jordan noted natural historian theologist and Sanford's founding president pack in eighteen ninety one Stanford also plans to relocate a statue of Jordan's mentor lose Agassi's from the building's facade Jordan's name has also coming up several sites at Indiana. University. where he also served his person. So who is this long heralded lately demoted David Starr Jordan. He was among many other things are great obsession of Blue Miller, Co host of Radio Lab author of the book why fish don't exist. Her book traces, the history of Jordan and her own obsession with him as a supreme taxonomy. St-. Who sought determinedly to order the natural world at least in part by finding naming its fish and later notoriously by ranking it's people. Lulu Miller was very much in need of some sense of natural order to fend off the sense of chaos in her own life. That's what first drew her to star his unstoppable drive to fend off his own demons by ordering the world even when his own mother of stern and Sturdy Puritan stock demeaned him for it. He is delicious person to write about because there are things that he does especially when he's a kid that just make you fall in love with him. When he gets bullied, he starts doing things alone like trying to a complete the task of clasping his hands and jump through them. So I can just a loner. Puritan parents especially his mother disapproved of his obsessions and his massive collections yet be sort of woke into the world. He had all these questions about what he saw around him, and so I he started putting names to every star in the sky he moved onto flowers and he started pinning them to the walls and writing their scientific names underneath them making topographical maps of every. Place around him and at one point, his mom just threw them away. His entire childhood was bound up in this stuff so much sweaty sweet careful labor and she just thought this is a waste of time. He should be out on the farm they were struggling to make ends meet and she told them to quote find something more relevant to do with his time according to his. Accounts taxonomy had sort of had its run. Carolina's the famous forefather of taxonomy had published his system Natera which was proposed to be this map of all life properly arranged about one hundred years before there was this sense that the world was known, we didn't need to look at it anymore his neighbors called him shiftless and a waste of time collecting and got sort of A. Bad Rap and as he grew older, he still loved doing it. His brother died when he was pretty young and he had been very close with him and right after that moment, he just goes back to drawing and his journals explode with color these drawing ivy drying carrots he's drawing pine branches like anything he can get his hands on your theory is that he was trying to. Impose order on chaos. Yeah. He talks about this urge even if he can't control the world at least he had naming if he could just order the world, there was some sense of agency. I don't WanNa go overly into like pathologising the very human impulse to collect no our world. But there are some people who have studied obsessive collectors. Often the habit will kick into gear after some sort of major deprivation tragedy or trauma each acquisition floods you would. This sense of fantasized omnipotence is how this one Guy Verner Burger puts it that you can kind of become addicted to in his early twenties he is. Perpetual student, he's also an educator he learns about a sort of camp for young natural historians an island off of Massachusetts called penalties yet this tiny little horseshoe-shaped island, an hour's ride away from the coast just horizon on every side of you Louis, Agassi the very famous Swiss geologist who by this teaching at Harvard decided that the way that Harvard professors were teaching science was all wrong. They wanted their students to learn to memorize beliefs out of books and he thought that beliefs were roadblocks because once you started to believe the beliefs you cease to observe. Yeah, you'd see stoops. And so he started this camp where he could train the future scientists of America in the right way to do science, which is climbing around nature getting dirty looking at things through microscopes, and that first summer he put out a call for applications. David Starr Jordan was miserable out at this college in the Midwest he was advised not to let his students touch microscopes. Chastised for teaching the Ice Age. Theory that there had been a time when the earth was covered in ice and Louis Agassi was the guy who discovered it blah blah blah. So he applies to this camp gets in he's one of fifty students, men and women all interested in taxonomy. Spends this blissed out summer. He's foster essence for the first time. He's twenty two years old and it's the first time he sees the ocean. And the impact of Louis Agassi can't be underrated. You wrote about a breakfast benediction that he gave it went like this. Said the master to the youth we have come in search of truth trying with uncertain key door. By door of mystery we are reaching through his laws to the garment hem of cause him the endless unbe gun, the unnamed. Though one as with fingers of the blind, we are groping here to find what the hieroglyphics mean of the unseen in the scene. Agassi literally thought that every single species was a thought of God, and that the work of taxonomy was to arrange those thoughts in their proper order and discover the divine plan of God and what the divine plan. Meant was this intricate communication of God's values and how to be in the world, and possibly if you read it right the path to further ascension. And so Agassi called the the work of taxonomy missionary work of the highest. David writes about that morning he said it was this transformational moment in his life because suddenly he had a response to all the people who said that his hobby was pointless. He traveled the globe to quote discover new species of fish catalogue them name them. Yeah. Starts Collecting for the Smithsonian. He gets promotions. He becomes the president. Of Indiana. University teams he throw dynamite into the water to unearth fish. He would use harpoons like any method he could think of and and poison. He would in tide pools he came up with this device strychnine, which plays a role later in his story, but we might not get to that the possibility that he murdered the head of Stanford. But never mind you became enamored with the idea of David Starr Jordan as a symbol of determination in the face of chaos. He lost his collection multiple times over the course of his life especially during the San Francisco quake of nineteen six, it was stored at Stanford a whole system of order obliterated and he and his team are credited with discovering a fifth of the fish species that were then known. Yeah. This first collection was struck by lightning and burnt to the ground. I mean it almost feels like a myth key thinks he can order the world chaos says. Can you he build it back up takes almost thirty years and an earthquake comes and he loses thousands of fish they're separated from their names and it was this moment where he did this gesture and this gesture is what pulled me into his tail I didn't even know who he was yet but I heard this anecdote and I know it is almost embarrassingly arcane. Why did this possessor life for ten years? Why did you write a book about this guy but this was the moment he took the fish off the ground and he started the practice of tying the label to the fish. Stitching them right into the flesh as if to say nature no matter what you throw at me, I can own you and I thought this is such a metaphor for our species and for our need to know the world and possess it the refusal to back down from these increasingly clear messages that chaos reigns that we live in a world. That we cannot control. When you learned darker and darker things about how he conducted. His life he had a shield of optimism which sounds like something great. But when you break it down, he was really good about lying to himself. Yes. A colleague of his said no matter how bad the day he could always be found a humming tuna down the arcade. But what is that shield comprised of and one of the key ingredients is to believe you're a little better than you actually are psychologists have studied this they call it positive illusions and it's this idea that if we can lie to ourselves a little bit, you actually see profound benefits in mental. Health even in relationships. It's kind of like a matter of how much delusion and there is clearly a slippery slope where you know you do get social punishment for being too deluded about yourself or your abilities but there is this weird spot. If you lie a little, it serves you really well right. But he was making judgments that he wasn't capable of making and like his mentor Louis Agasi he ranked what he found. And like his mentor he believed bad habits so to speak could cause species to devolve whether in. Molluscs. Orrin. Man. Yes. When Darwin came along David Starr Jordan did do away with the idea that there was a divine plan. He did let go of God but he still believed there was a somewhat divine piracy carved by time that more quote unquote complex such a thing as even measurable meant more evolved better as well. Darwin never did that he never ranked species from complex and closer to God to degenerate intrinsically evil. Yeah. I mean Darwin has his sins and he's complicated. But what really shocked me reading on the origin of species and rereading it and reading it with a pen? was just how clearly he warns against ranking then he says that hierarchies and even categories at all even edges in nature, and this is what really blew my mind that those are fabrication of the human mind. They're super imposition. Their proxy edges what you mean by edges that there are not hard lines even between species. One of the things he really hammers it gets a little technical, but it's cool. Of the things that taxonomic say is that two different species can't create fertile offspring. And he just shows time and time again, these examples where actually two different supposed- species do create fertile offspring. there. Aren't the hard blinds around species or around Genera- or going further up the tree filing even that that is a human way of parsing the world to feel safer in it. Darwin's disinclination to put species in boxes and especially to rank them did not communicate to star and a turning point for him was when he went to a ASTA. Sanctuary city in Italy a place where for centuries, the Catholic Church had provided shelter and food to people who had been rejected by their families because of their disabilities you might see in that town here's a place where people have safe harbor and are given the tools to flourish or what David Son he went three times. He called it quote a veritable chamber of horrors. People drooling or coming up to him begging and he said you know this is a subspecies of man and this is where the whole human race is going if we don't take action. And he becomes one of the earliest embrace of eugenics he thought that the people of a Asta were literally degenerating into a new species of man and he called this process animal populism. Yes. That laziness quote unquote basically the bad habits bad behaviors can cause not just a person but a species to sort of reverse evolve to slide down that ladder. He didn't believe in nurture much at all. It was all about nature for him. He actively in some of his books, he mocks education he's as education can never replace heredity and he begins to believe that. All kinds of traits are linked to the blood criminality poverty illiteracy what they call feeble mindedness that we could reduce all kinds of things by not allowing certain people to continue to live go over his efforts to enforce a better human race. Yeah. The simplest thought was that you could actually kill people he didn't think that was humane. So he suggested the idea of sterilization. Single. Out People he called quote unquote unfit. Again, you see him employing scientific to make his beliefs sound like a biological reality, but he starts advocating for these ideas as a great way to heal society into his lectures. At Stanford he talks to this really wealthy widow Mrs Harriman and gets her to. Hundreds of thousands of dollars to start the eugenics record office, which will become a huge player in claiming certain people are unfit based on their criminal records or their hospital records. Things like that. He joins political organizations. He's a huge pusher for these ideas and starting in one, thousand, nine, hundred seven the first eugenics law is passed in his one time stomping ground. Of Indiana, this law isn't just the first in the country it's the first in the world. There is resistance judges or governors who strike down there states attempted eugenics law and there are activists and even scientists calling the ideas behind eugenics quote unquote rot but it did sweep the country. There were these eugenics fares at small town festivals where they would have a tent where there'd be competitions among the babies who are sort of weighed and measured like Pumpkins, and there'd be the best babies or the fittest families. So growth it was so gross. I was just wondering if this is a good time to mention Hitler. Yes. The American movement predated Hitler's movement where some of the early posters to pass sterilization in Germany, said, we do not stand alone and there was a picture of the American. Flag. Americans. Had sterilized thousands of people, and then in nineteen thirty three Germany passed a law to allow the sterilization of what would eventually become hundreds of thousands of people and an American eugenicist Joseph. Darn it said the Germans are beating us at our own game. These ideas arise from different places Francis Golden Turn. Coined the term eugenics England and of course, like this idea of. Bettering heard. On your farm like that has been around for a long time. So these ideas are coming up from all over, but we were the first to legalize it in the world and to make real headway on these ideas that certain people in society should not be allowed to live and a lot of these. People Agassi David Starr. Jordan. The jarnet they're all over. Buildings, they've statues of them up but academic institutions and these were people really actively pushing. For the genetic death of certain kinds of people. And so Jordan becomes a cautionary tale about where the drive to impose order on the world can take us one of the. Big reveals in your book comes in the title fish don't exist. Tell me what you meant by that. So this is this amazing revelation in the biological community that taxonomic realized in about the. And it goes back to the Darwin thing that actually the edges in nature are not there. This group of scientists called Clayton. Came along and before he can into it, why are they called Clayton lists? Soak latest is Greek for branch. And then is the branches of the tree of life that they are interested in looking at accurately not based on this human centric sense what goes together You could lump together anything that has stripes. Then there'd be zebra fish and Zebra and those little furry caterpillars. But that is not a scientifically meaningful category of creatures if you're trying to group things in terms of how they're related. So, this is the whole puzzle of taxonomy. How do you decide who is closest to whom and around the eighties the latest kind of stumbled across this idea that certain characteristics gives you better clues. So they'd say you know look we got to not be distracted by things like skin or for we have to look deeper at the bone structure and the Oregon's so they would say. I'm going to hold up image of a cow. A salmon and a fish monkfish looks like a pretty fishy fish scaly tail. Which of these two things are most closely related? And inevitably, a biology student would. Hand and say the salmon on the lung fish. You know they're both fish swim in water that's my guess and then slowly the claytus would reveal why this isn't true and they'd say, well, look both the lung fish and the cow have lungs they both have this thing called an EPI gladys, which is this little flap of skin that goes. Over the throat that kind of came along later in time and they have more similarly structured heart, you can't deny that actually a cow and alum fish are more closely related to one another along fishing of salmon and what that means is that okay, if you WANNA. Keep fish together you'd have to include a cow in there and a human and a bird. You could keep all fish together but then it's it's more like the word vertebrate like it's so broad that actually the more scientifically sound thing to do is admit that fish is not a legitimate grouping of creatures that aren't actually close. And you can see it's very naturally carved out by the water. You know we just think they're they have these tales and they have these fins and so they're all fish. But that is obscuring a greater truth that there are things down there that are more closely related to us than to one another I learned this concept as I was researching. Jordan. Any completely blew my mind. and. It was this like violently counter intuitive. Thought I have a sense that it matters that this isn't just a nerdy linguistic party trick fish don't exist. Do. Then I set out to try to understand that I titled the Book that I, know people get annoyed they roll their eyes move fish don't exist. But my sincere hope is that you emerge from this story not only understanding and hopefully believing that idea but carrying it around with you as a reminder to have more doubt. In all categories around you one dismaying conclusion you came to dismaying man wonderful is that if you're claytus Te, you are far less inclined to other creatures if I'm using other as verb there, and especially you talk about fish. Some of whom have memory senses of Humor Pesky -Tarian are out of luck yeah. I think it's about having real vibrant curiosity about anything about any any category you're making whether it's in fish or whether it's in a type of student that you're not accepting to your institution. These eugenic sterilization laws that just kind of soberly allowed for the violent. Cutting off of your chance to carry on you know just because we say this word unfit that we think we have a grasp on and there are still laws on the books that now use slightly different terms like. Incompetent or unable to give informed consent or lacks mental capacity that allow for the mandatory sterilization of people and. Are We. So sure we're okay about that who is hiding under that language why fish don't exist is this absurd French surrealist painting? This is not a pipe kind of thing but my hope is that what that does to remind you that like we are bad at carving up our world, the work of being a good human. is to keep real vigilant curiosity about the creatures trapped underneath our categories and an even harder it seems to accomplish is to let go of your intuition. And you wrote that seeing the world trying to without intuition I mean, we can't obviously let it. All go was a peculiarly marvelous feeling. Yeah and it's hard. What do we have in the dark but our intuition to guide? US. I suck at it. Most days most moments. Can you find that place in the end of the book or or one of them where you write about going into nature? And being. Really conscious of what I don't know not doing what we're all wired to do. Yeah. Let me find one. Okay I. Think. Okay how So this is an epilogue. When I. Give up the fish I get a skeleton key. A fish shaped skeleton key that pops the grid of rules off this world and lets you step through to a wilder place the other world within this one. The grid list place out the window where fish don't exist in diamonds rain from the sky and each and every dandy. Lion is reverberating with Possibility to turn that key. All you have to do is stay wary of words. Don't exist. What else do we have wrong. Despite the fact, that science stands with Klay, vists with regard to the existence of fish nobody wants to go there. It is just not catching on obviously intuition as just implacably stronger. But could you tell me some of the marbles you encountered when you are able to let it go I mean you describing the button a lifelong existential elm. And suppressing that intuition seemed to be a means of. Dealing with it. Yeah I do think. With intuition comes a certainty of you know what's good for you? You know what you're bad at. What's scary all these things and when you can just suppress it a little and say, maybe let's go investigate. I have continued to. Be Wowed by surprises and things that existed outside of my intuition and my certainty from one of the biggest marvels. Was Meeting my now wife and still thinking she's younger than me. She shorted me she's a girl that's not what keeps me safe. That's not what is a mate you know these kind of silly criteria. Took a second to let go of I mean it was mostly guided by how freaking delightful she is to be around and how fun she makes the world but I think there was a little bit of all this research in their because I met her toward the end of writing this and I think she was this huge clear gift of of what you can welcome in when you do that that's an obvious one. But then even just little things the past several months have offered lots of chances to let go of preconceived notions of what's wire you started to see order it's self as a kind of violence. Yeah. The word itself order or denim comes from the Latin for loom, which is arranging of threads neatly in a loom and then it became to be used metaphorically as the way that people sit under the ranks of a King, an army general. Order itself. Know, it is based on the discounting of certain qualities within people to make them fit in this unnatural form on the loom. A think that. With all the rebellion and the unrest like people who have been trapped for so long. Under this violent order and no one has been listening. Look. I was I. was spat out near the top of this social hierarchy. I'm queer. So knocked me down a little but I'm a white woman I'm near the top and our world is so disorienting ensure that can feel frightening. But it is this moment for me I just keep thinking about the concept of order as this. Structure. And things have to change what is the most revelatory order overthrowing thing that you learned about a fish. They've done these studies that show that that they will actively seek out the soothing. Of either the touch of another fish or sometimes even the touch of a human hand that they've grown comfortable with and that like us when they are afraid when they are in some kind of physical pain. There is this strange power and being held and like. It's not some Whizbang if they can memorize ten thousand places which they can also do they have incredible skills, but there was something. So there's more similarity down there. There's more difference too but just that, there's more nuance. NERD more unexpected qualities down there so that yeah, that's the one for some reason that. Being with another being helps them wow Lulu. Thank you so much. Lulu. Miller is co host of Radio Lab and author of the book why fish don't exist. Thanks for listening to the podcast check out the big broadcast posted Friday around dinnertime and guess what the accent is on hilarity when on the media tries his hand at live coverage well, some coverage anyway. But mostly just keeping you company during election night November. Third on join US save the day. Of course you will. Death sex money is the podcast from WNYC studios about things. We think about a lot and need to talk about more and one of those things is aging by time is my own the getting cove it I duNno. I Bet I'm not the only one who's not being size. If you're over sixty, we WANNA hear from you about what your life is like now and how you're feeling your age differently this year than last find out more at death sex money dot org slash aging.

David Starr Jordan Stanford University Louis Agassi Indiana Blue Miller WNYC studios US Jordan hall president Bob Garfield Caccia W. nyc intern Thrace Rojas David Starr drooling Carolina Tansy Vega
Conversations with Tom | Daniel Schmachtenberger on What We Must Do Now to Stop the Destruction of Civilization

Impact Theory with Tom Bilyeu

1:55:18 hr | 6 months ago

Conversations with Tom | Daniel Schmachtenberger on What We Must Do Now to Stop the Destruction of Civilization

"What's up? Everybody welcome to another episode of conversations with Tom. I am here with Daniel Sch Makhdoom. Burger and dude. You're the guy that showed up on my feet when I started researching the end of the world which is a pretty fascinating thing to become known for and I'm super curious. How did you you touched so many different things from the neural hacker hacker, collective and self optimization and actually creating businesses. How did you end up getting so deep into civilizations and how fall? What a good civilization, as and how to improve things in our world, I'd say was my interest since I was young and kind of the center lines. How'd improve? How young are we talking? While I was very fortunate to be home, schooled growing up and home schooled in a way that's closer to what people would call unscrambling now. I didn't have curriculums. I got to you what I wanted, and so seeing the things it. Seemed like the biggest problems in the world and finding out. Why are these things like? This was actually what got to be my curriculum so very. Now are were you talk to your parents or did? They have the access to national teachers? My parents facilitated and sometimes they'd go to a public school or private school for a while, but they were very actively engaged in how I was processing the information, and then other times finding tutors and other times just working with books whose before Internet so? Couldn't pedia things, but we could certainly use books and encyclopedias. And for. What was their logic? Did they not like school? They didn't think it was going to be a good education. What was the reasoning? They were kind of educational philosophers intuitively. And had the sense that kids ask lots of questions. They have a deep curiosity. School mostly doesn't facilitate their questions. And so when the kid asks, why is the Sky Blue? And why is fire hot and what emotions and whatever questions they ask? They're actually the questions that if you want to address, why is the Sky Blue? There's atmospheric science. Understanding the wavelengths of light, there's understanding the nature of our solar system in astronomy, and what a son is, and then there's the neuroscience and optics is an is like a lot that goes into it. That naturally starts to unfold that helps. People understand a lot of topics and also an interconnected rather than fragmented way, if you follow the curiosity, but most parents and also most teachers don't know, have answer those things. And so then. I was GONNA. Ask how how did your parents to that like? If my kids asked me another, I have kids. Keep mind, but if my kids were to ask me a question that I didn't know the. I'd be like. Let's get you to public school. Real fast because I don't want to keep answering these questions so. One of your parents stay home, you have both of them worked to work from home as much as they could be pretty available and. If they didn't know the answer than it was. Let's go see how to figure that out. And, so that would be no going to the library and pulling out the cards to find the right book pulling up encyclopedias also something. was them asking me? Why do you think it might be? How do you think it might be so? My answer was not instantly just defer to outside authority was take the interest in facilitate my own thinking on it, but then to not just stay there, because he and come up with might be totally gibberish but investigate so it was. Facilitating interest and facilitating the process learning how to deepen the knowledge and deepen the interest as it goes, and of course as you learn some things, you become aware of how much other adjacent stuff it's interesting you don't know is. And so, if you do that, and you don't force a kid to focus on a memorize stuff with fear of punishment that they have no interest in then you don't break their interest in life, and yet she facilitate deepened. Interest and people tend to become good things. They really care about that. Yeah, that is a powerful thing when I think about part of getting good is building. Building Desire, and if you can capitalize on something that you're already on fire for and I've heard you talk about this in the perspective of how you create that next civilization it to an iphone. You don't have to convince people to get excited about technology like it works in. It brings some benefit to your life, and so people just adopt things that they're really into. I'm super curious you I. Think you have a right or by coincidence? There is a guy on the board of one of your companies with the exact same last name Is it just the two of you or they're more? So, how what's the age difference three years younger? So, how does your parents handled that? Was He just sort of forced to come up to your level? Did they split it up and talking to one of you at one time and the other day another? Like! I said they had kind of intuitions about. things that were wrong with society that related to how we develop humans, and that kind of was a sense of how to do education differently. Hundred parenting have family differently, but very experimental. They actually called her family Guinea pig four four of us in an experiment. and it didn't have the benefit of studying Montessori Waldorf and lots of other systems that had figured some things out there were a lot of. Mistakes could have been prevented, but they will also the benefit. They were in their own kind of authentic inquiry and interest. It happened that my learning style innately worked with what my parents knew how to do better than my brothers did. And so he had a bit of a rougher go because I think. They expected his half of being more similar mind, and it took a little while for them to figure out that he had a very different set of interests and learning style, he ended up excelling at entrepreneurialism and political activism and things that were not my areas of focus Once he can figure that up. Do you have kids? So. That would have been interesting to see like how you handle that. Have you given thought to how the way that you came up and the fact that it wasn't crushed out you? could be systematized and could be something that could be rolled out. Thought about a lot of course. So what does that in terms of the ideal school system? What does that look like? I think it's less to think about it as an ideal school system, and as a civilization, because by the time the kid goes to school. They've already been found imprinted. Night by the time they're five or six years old and they're going to first grade kindergarten. Wherever it is, they start. They've already fully learn the language in which they sink in all of the ways of that language predisposed patterns of thought they've already learned. The beginning of Emotional dispositions and social values and lots of things. And then obviously, if the educational system has to prepare kids for the workforce. so we think about economic says it is than it has to do certain things that are not necessarily what would make them the healthiest happiest people if it's preparing them for workforce. as the workforce changes technological automation. Peak resource issues of the planet and A automation and other things like that. Obviously, the role of education gets completely reconceptualized so instead. If you were to ask, how would we redesign civilization from scratch that included the thing we call education, but also. We mostly evolved in small bands and villages where we didn't just have two parents were influencing us. We had a whole crew of people that we had pretty deep connections with sub Dunbar and connections. is even the nuclear family. Within a very large city metropolis where you don't know, hardly anyone else have interactions with lots of people, and then the mostly have huge numbers of superficial interactions via social media platforms like is that how what does that do to develop human so this question of oncological design? We build environments whether it's schools or In the nature of the incentive of economics right as long as My To. As long as the forest, I go and enjoy the forest gives me no economic advantage, but if I cut down in commodities, it gives me a lot of economic advantage, the economic system itself the perverse incentive in the economic systems, conditioning, value systems and people, and whoever does better at getting value systems that go along with the economic incentive system will end up getting more power within the. The system and thus continuing to evolve the system in the direction that benefits them in the other people do well with it. If Cinco the let me ask you so that I can make sense of the world view so everything that gets designed has a goal in mind so when you first started talking I thought that the your punchline is going to be sort of happiness. Health of the individual. Is that accurate, or is it more? The perpetuation of the species is your. If you had to say a highest value would it be that a happy and healthy populist that you know like imagined the the movie? Was it children of men where there are no more kids, and so population is basically the world is ending, because they're not able to procreate anymore, but imagine that, but it was like everybody's having a great time right until the moment they died or a civilization where people are not exactly loving life, but we find a way to get him balanced with resources, and we're able to go on and on and on which of those to you is Better I think you set it up to make it obvious that those are both gibberish desires. that a civilization that is in an enduring hell. Like. Why won't go that far? I'm really trying to find the perfect way to ask a question where I can find out if it's more meaningful to you to find a way to continue on, and so because I'm looking for what to optimize for, and you can optimize for continuation. You can optimize for happiness you. Obviously I would assume wanted to both trying to I find it's. It is very edifying when you force. Force people to force rank things so that you can't have of two number ones because I I I now spent enough time in your world and sort of where you go I, know sort of the the ending point of some of the arguments but I'm super curious as to. What is the the big driver for you in terms of how you think about waking up in the morning and constructing civilization. Optimization theory itself is one of the underlying problems. This is actually super important to unfold me a moment here. If we do the thing you call, stack ranking, which is an idea that comes from computer science. If I think about computers and stack ranking, trying to optimize things in a software system at software system is a complicated system as opposed to a complex system and I'm going to define those formerly the difference. The software and the hardware on. Didn't self organize? Right, you didn't get spontaneous self. Of Hydrocarbons into Proto cells and cells. We got some buddy, did the? lithography to make the computer chips, and there's blueprint for the hardware blueprint for software. In a complicated system. You'll notice like this computer and the software doesn't repair itself if it gets harmed, doesn't self evolve and the phase space? All the things can do are fully explicatives, and it has formal causation. If I hit this Ki- this will happen necessary insufficient causation. In complex systems like biology. There isn't a blueprint. The genome isn't blueprints. It's a generator function to code new proteins under new environments where you can have it. Do things that it's never done before. If you expose it to a novel passage or novel environment, right so a generator, function and blueprint aren't the same thing. The IN A. In, a complex system it does self heal. And self repair it does also self evolve. It's it's different in type. So optimization theory from complicated systems metaphor where we thought our mind was o'clock when we figured out clocks before that native Americans might have thought of the mind as an ecosystem. then. We got o'clock. Now known the mind is a computer, so we pick whatever the metaphor that we're operating with where the metaphors wrong. It really fuck stuff up. And took can give you some grey partial insights, and also some really dreadful differences to the definition of a complex system is that it has some emergent properties beyond what any complicated model of it. Assumes that the complicated model doesn't show so basically if I take cell, and I try to model right so I. Try to make a software program for how that sell works. The cell will do some things that model doesn't do in as I keep making the model better. Look keep doing some things at the model doesn't do. As we call them merchant property rank. So! What that means is if I make model because the my model. Of, reality isn't reality. That's the first verse of the Dow Itching Right the Dow. The despicable is not the eternal Tao. My model of the thing isn't the actual thing, so if I think the models, the thing and then I try to optimize for the model where the model in the singer different I actually destroyed the real thing. Can you put that into real world example I make economic calculus and make an economic system for humans or these rational self serving agents, and they follow specific supply and demand. economic models and laws I can get more advanced things to be able to look at the laws of how they'll do things like derivative of black schools whatever, but they're basically simple mathematical laws and say here's how we optimize maximum. Activity in? For everyone and they don't work right like they kind of work. And then they also lead to environmental destruction, which wasn't part of the metric set. So this is where I'm wild. I'm trying to get you to stack rank things, which is interesting for you. That's where breaks down for me to understand what you mean when you say it doesn't work, I have to understand what you're trying to optimize for. So once I understand 'cause I, I in the beginning when I first started diving into you I thought okay. This is about optimizing for what all sort of round two human wellbeing, but I think there's an important caveat in there, which to you it. It is sort of. Beyond critical and I think the whole meaning and purpose view is that as long as it is not a hell that continuation is is a critical thing that that is sort of behind every word that you say but I'm not sure I'm interpreting that right. Okay, so let's say that we're maximizing for subjective happiness decoupled from objective measures, and so we're going to. Find, some types of states that we can subjectively report on within the Matrix might actually be the best optimize it. Raid. Disconnect from any kind of objective reality outside of brain stimulus, and just brings to make the fuck out of the dopamine, urgent response and say great. We optimized for Human Happiness and I don't think anyone actually thinks that's a maximally meaningful world. Or if we say maximized for the happiness at the individual level, while some individuals might be this and really get off on hurting other things. If, we say maximize continuance. A continuances really shitty. It's like why what is meaningful about life that you would want to have continue so what you're what I hear that you're trying to ask is what is fundamentally meaningful. What is if we cannot? I won't use the word optimize, but if we can. act in ways that benefit different. Things. We can say optimize, but what you're GONNA end up. Seeing is that it's on optimizing a single metric. Let me. Let me let you make that clear. Let's say that I value the life of rhinos and I. don't go extinct. And then I also value the life of coral, and they don't want it to sink also value kids that don't want to starve in the Third World. My also value. Subjective happiness of poets. Now. How many dead rhinos are worth? How much dead coral! How many did are worth? Much lack of happiness are worth. How many tons of CO Two? How do I commence rate those metrics to then be able to say what my optimization algorithms going to optimize for. I have to do some kind of waiting. And then I say well, but in the context where the Rhinos get below a certain number. They're worth more, but then when they get above a certain number, they get then I didn't even account for all things he soil microbes without which everything dies, and I didn't even account for them in this gotta bring soil microbes into it, and then I didn't account for the fact that subjective reporting we'll have these biases or Mris, things or Orient Towards addiction. So whatever my optimization said is there will be things that matter that are outside of it that I have to continuously bring in, so the optimization is for the. Evolutionary integrity of the whole or homeless itself. which is different than how we think of theory optimization? So, do we care about people's subjective experience? Yes, also care about objective metrics of the quality of their life like longevity and physical health and things like that. Yes, also care about that. Do Correlate one for one now there are some very happy people who are crippled in their some very physically. Able people miserable. There are some people who are happy who make other people miserable. And so. And, do we care about just individual life or also the relationships? What about happiness versus evolutionary rate? What if we could be happy, but stagnate versus quite quickly, but never enjoy the things we are evolving to. And we all have this our own life right like if do I want to be bettering myself, but in a way where I'm bettering myself because of the driver that I'm a piece of shit. Who's never enough so? I always have to get better, but I never actually enjoy any of it or do I. Accept Myself in a way that makes me complacent. Obviously, neither of those enjoy his fully and have my love of life. Have me want to keep growing? Not because of a dysfunctional driver right so I'm optimizing for if anything, the product of the dialectic of my experience of life now and my ability to experience life more deeply into the future. Now, if I take both sides, I say I want. I want to be able to enjoy the beauty of life fully as I can now. Out wanting to be able to add to the beauty of life for other people. Also want to deepen my capacity to experience the beauty of life and add to. Being doing and becoming, and then you say, how do we optimize for a virtuous cycle between the modes of being doing becoming individually and collectively now we start to get in the right direction. So basically, the Shit is complicated so when I think about So You I don't know how much you think of yourself as being tied to gain be, but certainly your name comes up a lot with This whole idea of game be a great if you can quickly sort of breakdown, what game as we game be is, and then what I find interesting is okay. Ken, WHAT ONE IT DO! We believe it to be conceivable that we can actually construct realistically game be by putting systems or whatever it is, it's going to be in place there but I think people have to understand what it is, and then we can go down the road of that conversation so if you don't mind really fast game a game be. Determined Game, view was coined by. Jordan Hall and the Weinstein's and. And the number of other people that were brought together at San suit back in the day to think about. A new civilization that had fundamentally new and better characteristics, and so in contradistinction to the idea that. this thing which is obviously the US civilization today one hundred years ago in the US versus Chinese, civilization are different, but they're all part of a Meta system that has certain system dispositions like environmental destructions happening across the whole thing, welcome qualities happening across the whole thing so game a is basically the idea, of Game Theory which is. Individual people, individual corporations, individual races, nations, whatever competing against each other in ways that. Maximize their benefit as much as they can. Even if it harms or externalize is harm to other players or the comments so roughly game a is to civilization that emerges dominated by Game Theory. Game, which is basically what we're living in right. And there was a recognition and I wasn't part of that crew. I made friends with them after they actually disbanded that thing in the kind of recycled and on similar things in a different context So game. Be Is the idea what the game be. What would the kind of game dynamics were how people show up in play a game that doesn't oriented toward self termination, so we'd have to unpack a bit why we would say gay dozen principally self terminate. What are the properties about it to say? What would categorical solutions to those look like? Yes, so I don't know all answer the question at least as I understand it. Basically, you have a world with finite resources where you are incentivized, so wailing is a great example I've heard you use before, if you. Capture that whale than you can sell it. You can monetize it if you it has basically valued to take it out of the ocean has zero value in the ocean, and even if you were to say no, no, no. I WanNa live in the world where the whale stays in the ocean. There's somebody else who goes out all right I'm GonNa get the whale then so now. It's like you're gonNA. Lose the whale. Anyway. You might as well be the one that takes it and a world of infinite resources. You could actually get away with that, but in the finite resources as you say, it ends itself eventually, so you will run out of resources specifically because. It's not the missing. The whale in the ocean doesn't provide any value to me that I call value. I might feel a sense of all seeing it right. I might feel a sense of interconnectedness or beauty or whatever it is. But that doesn't increase my game theoretic capacity to do anything. I can't extract and exchange that value that experiential value, but if I kill the whale and I sell it as meat and I, get that money that I can then go buy weapons building materials employ people with that actually increases my power, so there are kinds of value that are extractable and exchangeable, extractable, accumulatively exchangeable the. The increase power and their types of value that are appreciable, but don't increase power so those who orients to the power, increasing value in the getting more power, and then dominating the system. They Amex so then that creates a race to do that thing because like you said if I don't kill the whale. I I am not protecting the whale because somebody else is going to kill. Those guys might actually be my enemies and use that increased economic ability 'cause they're going to feed more people there population's GonNa grow, and then they're gonNA come kill US war so actually for my own security, not only do I have to kill the way I have to race to get them faster than that guy. Because now we're GONNA, growth race, which also means I'm going to advance wailing technologies to be able to take way more than I need grow my population base. Start exporting other population basis so that I can get the optionality of money to build other kinds of things with and so what we end up getting is being able to see. The industrialized fishing mechanisms that we have operating today that can fish more fish in a single net. Maybe all of human history could in a year in previous points of human history, and it's like the. That kind of. Arms, race multiplied by the ability to keep increasing the tech, and when everybody increases the tech whether it's military tech you build. A weapon I have to build weapons and I weapons or lose by default. And then I have to try to get an advantage on you. Because you probably have some advantage you're trying to get the secrets have to spy on you. I have to lie to your spies and hide the stuff. And I have to try to keep advancing it, but when you're advancing your weaponry, and so am I I'm advancing relative to you. You're advancing on the base of what exists. You get a compounding curve which is exponential curve and we've only recently started to get to. The vertical is in part of that curve started to go steep with the industrial revolution. And and it started to go very steep with the information. Revolution were just in phase of what has really been a process. It started since stone tools. It was just very slow curve from the stone tools thing for a long time now it is in the quickly vertical izing, so the thing is. When you look in nature, you see well. Animals compete. They don't increase their competitive capacity rapidly or irrespective of each other. Right, the tiger can't just become way better at hunting. it has a pretty fixed killing capacity, and it can only get better through natural selection, which is a pretty slow process, but the key is that it's a slow process that is evenly distributed across the whole forest. Because the things that lead to gene mutation in the tiger also lead gene mutation in the deer. And the slightly pastor tiger that eats the slightly slower years makes the better genes, the faster jeans, the in breed together until everything steps up together very slowly, and the whole environment does what happened with stone tools as humans unable to increase our productive capacity way faster than the environment could increase its resilience to. And so we could start extinct species and devastating whole environments, training them to desert moving on. That was the beginning of something very different so when we think of social darwinism where we try to model ourselves as apex predators. We're just not fucking APEX PREDATORS APEX Predator theory doesn't apply because in ORCA can kill a two at a time, and it misses mark crime. We can pull up one hundred thousand of them in a fishing that it wants. And so since the Orca can't destroy whole ecosystems, and we can, if we keep modeling ourselves with Apex Predator theory, and having to exponentially increase destructive capacity, exponential destruction, whether in the form of extraction, pollution or military destruction or disinformation, you start getting into the space of being able to win through information. Warfare ends up destroying the comments so. I WANNA. Put a fine point on that. You just said that I. I've heard you say this before I've missed until just now is what's causing that ever. Escalation is because you're doing that in concert with people who are essentially your enemies so like with a I it it almost certainly will be a winner. Take all game because if somebody can beat you by a month and for a computer. That's like one hundred years worth of learning. You can see how just being the first is. They're going to be the victor, and so now you've got this sort of ever escalating. Desire to either protect yourself or to monetize, and thus the tragedy of the comments So this is part of the reason. That I was trying to figure out sort of what you value most because for me, everything comes down to if you want. If you want to build a business. I will speak in those terms which I understand very well. You have to have a goal. You have to know what you're trying to accomplish and the clear of the goal, the more likely you are to hit it and if you don't have a clear goal, then you're just sort of steering by a vague sense of what you want to accomplish, and it's going to become very difficult, but there are what I call the physics of being human, and what I'm obsessed with this humans are a certain kind of way there. You're having a biological experience. Your brain is a certain way. It processes data in a certain way, and whatever you do has to align with the reality of what humans are like and so. Going to gain be and thinking about constructing that and building something. It's like when you were describing. How interconnected everything is how complicated it is? It. Really gives me pause about like thinking about Jesus man to really do something it is going to be. It's GonNa Really fucking difficult and when I when I go back through and look at the people that were a part of the game game. Be Conversation. It's like I'll be very interested to see if ideas keep coming out and their iterative, and we find a way to actually migrate to an entirely new approach I mean it would be a new financial system. It would be new architecture at every conceivable level of society and. My first question is what are we aiming at like? What? What is it that were? I WANNA. Say optimized, but I know that that. Trip's something that I don't fully understand yet But what are we steering towards I? Give you a very concrete set of examples will make this make more sense. Let's take covid and. When? where the CDC or the White House of the WHO or whatever institutions are trying to respond competency to it. What should our goal? What are we trying to optimize for? Well let's say we picked the goal of optimizing for the least deaths from covid. Okay so we will definitely institute quarantines and contact tracing and a bunch of things it will decrease total transmission. Well. There's a chunk of that that we did. That led to the breakdown of the supply chains for food. And we still in the middle of that rolling catastrophe in the new cyclists moved on to other parts of the rolling catastrophe, so we weren't paying attention to it, but. When we wanted to stop travel because the virus can travel with stuff, right? Will that meant that we stopped the. The show of pesticides areas that completely depend upon pesticides, fabric culture, so northern Africa and parts of the Middle East got covered win the worst locusts in recent history because they didn't have pesticides and they lost shoes monocrop. We've stopped the flow of fertilizer to places in India and other areas that make the food supply for hundreds of millions of people, and they lost crops. We also stop the ability to ship food from where they were to where they need to get a huge amounts of them just rotted. We were actually coaling animals, right killing thousands of pigs and millions of chickens, and whatever when people are going hungry in other parts of the world because. We couldn't send them to McDonald's. If people are going to McDonald's, we didn't know how to supply chain route them on the other side, and so we just were dealing with. No change in demand, no change in supply in a complete break of the food system right now. We damaged the food system in a way that pertains to about two billion people. Kobe could have never killed that many people. So if we're optimizing for, don't let the least people die from covid. We can destroy the world. or We. Example what I'd call a second order effect right? The wasn't the or an unintended consequence extra now the the solution that we implemented to a narrowly defined problem optimization goal caused a worst problem. So, when we define our goals and very narrow ways like make maximum amount of money from the thing I can do the whaling industry the ocean. But. Is that what you hear me saying because I'm not I I'm not saying it needs to be narrowly defined I'm saying. What is like? What is that as as somebody who is really fucking thoughtful about this topic? How do you think about those second order? Consequences third over consequences like that crazy biomass of interconnected things. Now now that how do we think about the interconnectedness? Not One thing that matters, but all the things in the relationships between them, and then think about how to make not just individual choices, but whole complex of choices that benefit all those things and the relationships is how we start to think about it properly, and it's a much higher level of complexity of thinking. So when I think about. COVID goal. Think okay. Well we want to. Minimize, the total number of covid related deaths are. But. There are people who can die and recall I mean there are people who can get not die, but have permanent disabilities in terms of damage to heart or lung or kidneys or whatever we'd also like to do something that. Preventing ICU overwhelm was actually a really critical goal before prevent total number of deaths, because the death spike would go up radically, so you have to think about upstream downstream months, but then we start to think about okay. Let's make sure that in doing that. We don't damage other things significantly, so when people are on quarantine. How much does domestic violence go up? What happens to addiction patterns for kids who don't have school and just have six months of solid screen time what happens to an economy where we have forty million jobs echo? That are lost now we see a lot of violence. We all be see more violence whether it was racism as the trigger or other triggers. Win We always eat more violence win. People are out of work. Yeah, right. So are being met by a system. They don't stay complacent with the system. That's failing them so if you think of this as like four or five dimensional chess, like where whereas the human animals capacity to deal with this like we actually going to be able to get people to think in many ways were already failing to do it with covid. Do you think that. That is when I go back to the physics of being human I begin my hypothesis I'm not sure I'm not sure that we'll be able to I a very optimistic view of most things, but on that one woo building a brand new civilization without people I having to suffer a level of intolerability seems tough. Seems tough to get them to believe the things that they would have to do to leave the whale in the ocean or whatever you know, example. We're GONNA use. Do. You have thoughts around how we? Give a simple enough narrative that people can latch on and understand. Okay. Cool I get what we have to do here. For the most part. We aren't even trying to think about second or third order effects currently. Like it's not even a thing we tried to. Do. You think nobody's thinking about it or the people aren't listening, because it's not sexy like when I think about what's going on right now. So with everything that was shaking down with the death of George, Floyd, and how everything sparked off that I started like really looking into I didn't want to say some bullshit to say bullshit like I wanted to actually understand like really truly. What's going on, so I end up seeing this discussion about the difference between Martin Luther King. King Junior and Malcolm X and Martin. Luther King Junior had a Meta narrative which was religion. It was about unity, but he was measured I mean he was very passionate? Obviously when he spoke, but it was like this sort of calming soothing thing about bringing people together, whereas Malcolm X. was black power, there was energy there was aggression. It was tapping into that anger. That was right there below the surface there was nothing counterintuitive about it, and so he was able to really get. People motivated in rallied, and I thought that's. When you think about Human Amas, there's something that pisses you off and it gives you the energy I mean literally. The world was burning last week and You Gay people, just a little bit of a justification to tap into that. There is something about tapping into that aggression that level of animation. There's an intoxication to rage, and when you can even just nudge people a little bit into that you get that, so my thing is I hear people talking. You're talking about this crazy eloquently. But is it giving people that sexy level of animation to to to get visceral to tap into something? That's aggressive in that feel so powerful. I think about the House that I'm in right now. It probably took about a year to build and I can take it down with a record ball in minutes. Or Fire. It takes twenty plus years to grow in adult humane a second. It's easier to break shit and the motivational complex is that break shed and motivational complexes that figure out how to build complex. Things aren't the same. So, yes, there's power, and can you give me a little bit about what the motivations are Y-? You've talked very well. And motivation status, seeking like earlier when you mentioned, power almost stopped you because I wanted you to actually define what is power. Why do we give a shit? I think it would help. People would help me I want to understand. What is the difference specifically in those motivation types? I can't stay enraged. For All that long and it certain amount of time I can say enrage long enough to break this house, but I couldn't stand rage long enough for that to be the motivation to build it Astrakhan yeah. And the rage wouldn't. Be The right frame of mind for me to learn the structural to make the blueprints. Or to try to evolve metallurgy to be able to make bigger buildings That had better trusses that requires a very different frame of mind that is. Doing planning over a longer period of time, and for the most part limbic processor, describing in the prefrontal process. I'm describing are inversely proportional in the brain. The degree to which you're in one is the degree to which were mostly not accessing the other. And so what kind of motives are? Useful for what kind of goals is an important question? And to the degree that we want to build things that have complexity long-term, we have to be able to access the places of our mind and capabilities that can think long term and complex. Can we nudge people in a direction? Okay. That's actually a great question. The I wanNA, take slightly different place. Can we nudge people in direction is a very interesting question. Which is? So who is the we that would be doing the nudging, and who is the people that? Some we as saying, we want to influence them we want to. We want them to think and feel differently and change their behaviors for some goals. We have that they may not have to. How can we change their goals and change their behavior and manipulate their emotions? You. Do you want me to answer that question? Short so. This is. Exactly what I have given my life to which is. I for a long time I tried to help my mother change and my mother smoked my entire life morbidly obese. She's amazing and I want her to live as long as humanly possible and I. as I say you can lead a horse water, be coming to drink, and then people say focus on making them thirsty, and I'm like Oh my God. This is all amazing. Yes, I just need to make my mom thirsty. This is GonNa be amazing maker. Want change and realized I can't and now it may be that I. Just Suck and I'm not able to find that thing in her, so it got me obsess. Oh! I people that are that followed me will have heard this many times. Forgive me, but I really I had my last company. A thousand employees group hard as hell in the inner cities, like crazy shit and shot, not my sister shot in the heart with an AK47 in my front yard I held my stepfather while the blood, the deaths from a gunshot wound to the head, another kid hid under a car while his best friend had to hold his intestines in from point blank. Range Shotgun blast I mean it's just story after story of two stories in Saint so I started thinking okay. How do I help them? Make change some people. You can just tell them think like this act like this they do it. It's radically transformative. It opens up avenues of learning and growth, and it's amazing, but I'll say that's about two percent of people at least with my skill level. Eight percent, do not. They hear the information. They may even get excited about. It might be spiritual entertainment, but they don't do anything and so over the course of a month like I remember so many of them would show up to a book club. Not put on me. Put other people. They will get amped up then they wouldn't read the books. They'd stop showing up, so it was just like it. It is just so short lived so I started asking myself the question, no bullshit. What would it take to? Give somebody a growth mindset even if they were antagonistic to a growth mindset. And I thought okay, if I can solve for that which by the way I have not, but if I can solve for that somebody who doesn't want to change. They're not apathetic. They're actively opposed to changing. If I can find the magic sequence of things of words whatever to get that person to be like Oh my God I can actually do something I can learn. I can express myself whatever, but now I moving in a positive direction where before I was moving in a negative direction so. It it is. I have come to the conclusion with my desires and skillset the storytelling his way to do that, so I think a lot about nudging people like how much can you shift the pop culture narrative in a non sinister way, but to have a kid, so the more I looked into it, the more I realized Yo I need to kids at the age of imprinting I'm. I'm not talented enough to do this with adults that are truly antagonistic, but if I can actually get somebody who is at that stage where they're a sponge, they're drinking things in, and I can introduce them to characters ideas thoughts the way. Yoda led me to the Dow design which I've heard you talk a lot about I became obsessed I. Self identified as a daoist. Of Yoda, so it was like when I read the first page of the Dow dishing, I was like Oh my God. This is iota so it was like I was so instantly connected to it, so that is given me that obsession to be like. Maybe you can people like. Maybe you can plant these ideas at the right time and. Things from there will blossom I don't know if I'm high on my own supply, or if that's actually real, but it gives me so much. Hope that that's why I'm keen so I. Am the this sort of we have like? I'm well intended, but maybe there's a second or third order consequence and I'm about fuck everybody up I I'm very open to that. But well-intentioned. The goal is to give An. What I think of an even playing field a game, a person I'm super open I want somebody to show me. There's a better way, but I'm. I'm sort of locked in game makes I don't know any better I'm again happy to admit that that's just part of an evolution and I'm stuck there, but I'm game may trying to find a way to get more people to play game a well in a way that is supportive and uplifting to other people. But. That is the we and the people that are antagonistic. Are they that I'm trying to nudge in a positive direction through story. You think the Chinese Communist. Party wants to nudge the worldview of people in the US in particular directions, yes. Through influencing media and what happened social media. Yes. You think Russia's. Yes Iran Turkey North Korea. Do you think they'll want him? I would assume. Steady Project MOCKINGBIRD, which was when the CIA start influencing Hollywood was when Hollywood started become a very powerful force coach Shit. We need to make sure these means do the right things and predispose particularly when the counterculture movement hard to take off, and they were parts of it that were dangerous to US interest, because people protesting against Vietnam and some of those ideas needed to be shifted. So. How do we use emotionally compelling things that used narrative, because our evolutionary biology were with story well to be able to control humans for the purposes that we care about is a very ancient story. We just have much better tools to do it now. And I would say that narrative warfare the war between controlling what people get emotionally riled up about so that they serve agenda whoever it is, it's creating the narrative friend. They don't even realize it think it's their own agenda 'cause they're being much narrative, warfare and mimetic warfare and Info, warfare is the brunt of. The unconventional worker happening in the world. I would say that. It's fair to say that today. And this is easier for people to hear today than it would have been three months ago because cities are on fire in the places where we didn't expect to these to be on fire. And, because the upcoming election the US. Currently stands that no matter who gets elected. A, solid third of the population will think it was stolen. The Democrats are freaked out by the way stealing it and the trump orders to think are trying to steal it so whether anyone steals it or not a third of the population. He was doing so what the fuck happens from that? So either you get massive violence. If you don't get massive violence, oh to want to steal elections now know fully that they can with no repercussions. and. Do we actually create the confidence both in the integrity of the elections and everyone knowing it? When the infamous landscape is as fractured in the narrative landscape is as fractured as it. Okay, so what I would say is that we are in world war three currently. Accessible statement. It's not a connecticut. Meaning bullets. It's an unconventional war. Go go read the doctrines on unrestricted warfare that CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY IN LA published or Or Fair that US published. Ninety nine percent of war isn't Connecticut. It's economic there. Its narrative and info warfare it's cyberwarfare is political and diplomatic and supply chain, and trade warfare and Connecticut kind of the last art that will back it up. Connecticut used to be a bigger percentage of the story than it is now because we didn't have powerful cyber attacks and we couldn't do narrative warfares powerful as we can. Now, because social media's fucking amazing for being able to control minds. Detour on that. Social media will control minds and move people into war, even with no one it to. As. So if you haven't had the Don, Harris on the show or discussed with him, the issues around facebook algorithms and twitter and the TIKTOK even worse. You should, but I'll do the. Very brief virgin here. You on facebook. The total amount of Info published on facebook. No one could ever possibly look at so your news feed. You can scroll for a long time and not see it all, and it represents almost no percentage of what's on Facebook, though when you see facebook and when I see facebook. We think we're seeing the world. We're not seeing the world. We're seeing very carefully curated AI. Algorithm curated world now. FACEBOOK wants to expose you up front to enough of the things to see your likes NC. Your patterns of your mouse 'cause your you're mouse's hovered. Nothing once you've liked a couple of hundred things. It can predict what you like better than your spouse count. And it's important. Understand that the kind of a is that are optimizing. The Social Algorithms are better than the. Is that Gary Kasparov Chess? That's nuts. And he's so much better at chest than you are at at any control online. and. He knew he was at war. When you don't even know when you're going on facebook that it's not just a tool that you're using. It's an agent that wants to control you that using you. and. So what happens is it's desire is to maximize the knowledge about you that it can sell to marketers. And to maximize your time on site that it can sell as attention to marketers. So, you will spend more time on site when your limbic system gets hijacked when you're prefrontal Cortex remembers your goals that you don't want to spend the much fucking time on facebook stays engaged. So the stuff that scares you and enrages you and illicit, your greed and your Hornets will make you spend more time on site than the things that make you think complexly about stuff. And so it ends up. Happening is people whatever it is, that would emotionally get them which appeal to their current biases is what they get more of they get driven and more extreme directions in all directions, so the right gets more right. The left gets left and you get both Tif Zan Google news coming out of it. As without any political. Really. Fast I've heard. People say Boo Glue I. Don't know what it means. A particular alright group that identifies acceleration as that war in the US to believe they're ready. They'll win that it's eminent until they want to accelerate the movement towards civil war to get on with rebuilding country. Why are they called Blues? Long Story. There's a bunch of names Google lose. Hawaiian shirts started his big igloo boys, but memes coming out of fortune okay. But they go from Portugal facebook. Now. So. It's important to understand this algorithm. That's happening on facebook. It's also happening on twitter and instagram talk and. Why did you see that Tiktok is the worst? As social media platforms evolve their evolving to be able to appeal to younger audiences more effectively in competing against the other one show, whatever is the most addictive it gets them to engage. The most is what it gets optimize for. It on the supply side right if I have an MBA, and I'm running company I know that I want to maximize the lifetime revenue customer I also want to maximize the total number of customer so multiple. The number of customers multiplied by lifetime revenue is my desire so on the supply side. There's nothing that would be better for me than addiction of my customers to my product, and then being able to make the whitest population addicted possible right, and this doesn't just happen with social media. This happened with fast food. Fast Food is extract the most addictive things from food from an evolutionary perspective salt fat sugar mix them together in the right combinations and palatability. Remove all the nutrients so that it doesn't even fill you up, so you keep eating it and you. You have what's called Hyper Normal Stimuli right? You get a bigger dopamine hit from that than you ever would from a salad and then the south doesn't. Get no joy from where you would have before because you're actually. desensitizing to normal stimuli through normalizing hyper normal stimuli, which is why when you watch enough porn, you can't arise with normal women right and so porn and fast food and social media and. Are All basically optimizing towards normal stimuli because from a supply side, it makes me more money. I maximize lifetime revenue in the people have to keep coming and getting hit. And what will appeal to everybody will social media knows that we're social primates and that we're lonely. And what we want spend all their time. Doing is looking at other people's faces. And like seeing other people in engaging and yet real interactions are vulnerable in difficult so to be able to the part of the interaction, which is where I get a like on thing I posted, and I get to see the photoshop versions of their faces. And then other limbic hijacks, and be able to optimize for that remove all the nutrients of actual authentic human interaction. That's what you get into. Each of the new platforms that has to emerge in the presence of the existing platforms has to offer some hyper normal stimuli. What is up impact invest hope you guys are enjoying. This episode wanted to give a quick shout out to our sponsors, and then we'll get right back to it. Remember our sponsors are all hand, and we love these guys, and that they have something incredibly valuable to offer, so be sure to listen. A lot of these guys are doing special offers just for you. I want to talk to you about mental health. 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Yeah the social media is is something that so it's weird because I've built my business around social media if if you'll grant me I, guess that Youtube falls into the social media category. Which is my primary focus? But that's rapidly become the only one that I really spend a lot of time on as an individual There is something about the way that it. The endless scrolling I'd do it enough when I fall asleep, I have this sense of like motion, almost like a very disquieting sense of motion almost like a fever dream. If you've ever had a fever dream that just fucking loops, so I was like I can't. I can't keep doing this, so yeah that the. What is happening to minds, especially of kids with the change in social media like I'm I'm always wary of being like the old fuddy Duddy, who like all kids today? But when I the the thing that freaks me out I want you to imagine a world with the porn and a device that moves in conjunction with what you're seeing in the VR porn. That of course is a fixed to the more sensitive bits that you have and when I. Think about I. I'm not kidding, Daniel I wouldn't have graduated high school. Certainly not with the GP that I did I. If my parents left, I would have had that out so fast like. Win. You can construct different people different partners. Every time you go in like exaggerate. Different features like peak shift, which I'm sure is something that you know about like you can just peak shift something until it is dismore Fiqh and your your brain is actually wiring to that thing, and when I think about like one of the recommendations that I have for couples. If you want like so my wife and I've been together almost twenty years. Years and my recommendation to couples always Yo you need to have more sex I can just tell you right now like if you want to a good long lasting relationship, the neuro chemistry that cocktail that you get from intimacy is crazy, but if you've been living in a VR, world that is like your brain has wired to it. It is normalized to it. And then so that was the first one that I sort of put my finger on. It was like ooh. I'm glad I don't have kids because that one. Really fuck scares me like hey. Parents I used to joke all the time with people that I knew that had kids like. Man When your kids fourteen should is gonNA get weird like where technology is going is going to get weird, and if you don't think that there are repercussions for that like men it is. That was worrisome, but now as I back into just social media in general, what what it must be like to be twelve or thirteen I remember as a kid if you gonNA, get. Sort of gossip bullied. They might spray paint something on the bridge that we all drove under to get to school. And that was like the height of Oh man like you just got burned. But now that people can create an anonymous account and gang up on somebody at the school. That is so gnarly. Ever across the terms to cast terrorism never. So. If you read Sun, sue, or you read the thirty six stratagems or any kind of text on military theory, and it doesn't have to be. Chinese can be anywhere. give the enemy to weaken. Himself is always one of the high principles. And so if you can see that, there's internal dissent within a people, our culture, or corporation, or whatever and you can increase that internal dissent. Great. If the goal is to be able to win. Gay May competitively relative to them because you're competing for the same scarce resources whether it's global control or Actual physical resources or whatever else? So. The cast of terrorism. You've got groups of people who are very disaffected who find each other online in a four Chan group or NHL Group or in a facebook group or in a chat room various kinds. And talk about hating blacks, hating whites are hitting police or whatever it is hitting the kids at school. Well. If I am a state actor or a non-state actor, Jihad terrorist or whatever I can make fake sock puppet accounts go in there, and Egged him on right share more stuff that pisses them off and get some upset. Tell them what hero they'll be if they do it. And it's what we call the CASSOCK terrorism because. I don't know exactly who will do what harm at what point, but I'm increasing. The statistical likelihood that more people will do more harm, and if the goal is to be able to de-legitimize the enemy or weaken them, or whatever that's, so he's. That's so easy at number used to be easy like that as easy as that is, it's also easy for any intelligence agency to just watch where the groups of people that are talking about stuff are and be able to share more interesting stuff to see what people are thinking as honeypots for information sharing so. The thing about the arms race. Is that the tools escalate right. But we don't have even distribution of the use of those tools. As a result, the total asymmetries get more severe. And the whole idea that this increase tech right now I have a computer that gives me access to more information than presidents had ten years ago. If I know how to use Google searches and that my phone has supercomputing power if I use Amazon cloud. That's mostly just silly. Because? Yes it's true that tech decentralized capacity in a way. But nobody's using their phone to use Amazon cloud for supercomputing capacities to do. What groups do it supercomputers, not that many people are using that. They're just talking scrolling facebook. Getting their mind hijacked and thinking. They believe things that they did. They wouldn't believe otherwise right or thinking or having emotions or whatever they're being nudged for agendas other than what is good for them. And so when they're so much information. These brick showed up in the protest. They were put there by the cops to incite people to Ryan to the cops could use violence, and they were put there by the far right, and to blame on ANTIFA now. They were really put there by ANTIFA. No, they were put there by Soros. They were put there by Chinese agents. They were put there by organized crime there. fucking expensive rights, look at your feet, and depending upon who you've curated. You get one of those things. If you try to do a good job, you'll get all of them. You'll get overwhelming and bail right so either you'll get. And cognitively hijacked into nonsense and be certain that it's true and be willing to go. Take that enraged action on it, or you'll just be overwhelmed him no idea. So when there's so much info and so much distance fo. And there's so much noise until little signal, but the signal there is a disaggregated I. Don't have all the signal in place while aggregated for actionable Intel. Access to Info isn't what empowers you. The ability to info process to parse the signal from the noise aggregate. The signal have actionable Intel. Will people don't really have that equally? If you think about a top tier quantitative, Hedge Fund. And their ability to do a empowered high-speed trading. With information that comes from lots of private intelligence agencies and big data analysis, and the ability to front run other large ones with Algorithm MC warfare in dark pools on derivatives. Compared to your ability to understand the market and try to invest, we're talking about. So many orders of magnitude difference the you have no ability at all to play their game when I hear Dallaglio talk about that and he's like look. You're trying to to play a game that I'm spending hundreds of millions of dollars to play and you. You can't win and he. I. I've met him a couple times, and he seems like sincere like I really think he's trying to keep people from putting their hand on the stove and getting burned, but it's like he has that peek behind the curtain of just the like you said that description. He's living, so my question becomes. How are you making sense of all this like? You're a just a ridiculously intelligent person. You can obviously prostate a very very well. So. The average person may be can't do exactly what you do, but I think it would be edifying to hear what you do. I would love to say things he ever person can do. Perfect plan is a term that doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know average people but something that anyone can start doing progressively more if they want to understand the world better. And the preface for that is. If my map is wrong and I'm trying to navigate I'm not going to get good results right so I my ability to make good choices. Depends upon my values, what I think is a good choice which you're asking about earlier, but also depends upon what I think. The actual reality is and the state of play, and then what I think, the effects of particular actions will be. Does it be the thing I want? Does it in Boca? Counter response of the other side that is that I'm trying to do something against. It's more intense as a great second and third order affects. That are worse. So like strategy, one. Oh One! If you aren't factoring counter response rate, you have a goal, you there. It's black lives, matter, or it's climate change whatever few recognize that you're not shared by everyone and you aren't factoring counter response. You aren't doing strategy. You're just being emotionally hijacked into playing a game for reasons you don't even understand. if you aren't factoring second third order consequences, you're probably make no worse. and. So that all means you need to slow the fuck. Down Now. This doesn't mean inaction. It means the possibility of effective action. Now feeling effective in being effective aren't the same thing. Truth! And so people have to get off the addiction of wanting to feel effective. And actually step back and say wait do I even know where what I'm going towards do I understand the lay of the land. I understand the various forces and do I have a path that makes any sense at all. So our ability to choice making well. Depends on our ability to sense make well. which is why controlling people sense making is the heart of the war. That's happening. And the forces that are said this is important thing in terms of narrative and info warfare. What is Power Power and a game? May Census Power over other people? And a lot of ways of getting it summer more evil than others. Slavery is particularly bad example, but the economic servitude of I can employ you and when I'm employing you, you are an extension of my will. You are no longer doing your own well. That's still an example of. How do I get power over people to enhance some goal that I have? And when we look at left, right, it's. Power of that political party, the control as many people as possible to get them to vote away, so there's the power over the left and right against each other and their power over their bases to then be able to have power as a nation over other nations and of classes over other classes and those types of trae. Because ultimately, if I didn't have other people that could do shit on my behalf. I couldn't do that much stuff. Like if I have to make everything with my own hands, I can't do that much stuff. So if I want to do more stuff, I'm looking at. How do I get more people to to be able to do that, okay? So. When we start to realize that. Rather than try to control people's behaviors directly influencing what they feel, and what they think, and what groups are engaging in, that will ongoingly us. Group think to affect what they think and feel is a much more powerful way than the brunt of the warfare The power game becomes control the hearts and minds of people. Now when you're talking about making more Yoda's. You aren't trying to control the hearts and minds of people to do your bidding. You're trying to say. How do I nudged them in a direction where they will become more sovereign and self determining as opposed to become more part of my in group. So what I would say is that that is trying to use the tools of power. To actually make the game of power less pathological. which is a legitimate thing to do and a good thing to do? Typically the tools of power, if if I have asymmetric power over somebody else, and I get a lot of benefit from that I have the capacity because of that asymmetric power to continue to get more of it and I have the motive to. So. any business is not just focused on providing the thing they provide increasing their capacity to do stuff, and in some places that will be on the positive, and in some places it will be the driving externalities I we celebrate, because we just cornered the market, which means we drove a lot of people out of business, and they can't feed their kids, and we manufactured demand for people to want shit that they didn't want before. That doesn't make them happier now all your logic, but how do people employ this to actually make sense that make sense, yes, okay? Understanding these things already will help. That's why I was starting to bring it up when you understand more about. That The as much more. Capacity is the top level. Economic players have than you. The top level narrative players and information players also do, and they're engaging in that and you realize that. People's minds are the battlefield. And also the treasure that is trying to be achieved and also the weapons. Right. And so it's important to be like Oh. Wait to what degree MIA sovereign self determining agent to what degree am I thinking? I'm a sovereign determining agent that is actually being influence in ways. They don't even recognize through. This is scary man. This is like some your mind has been hijacked, and you are now acting in the interests of somebody else. I don't know why but I just really hit me. As you were explaining that like arm ideas, my own there was a band back in the eighties called Queen's Reich and they were the first people that really got me to think. Critically so I definitely owe them a debt gratitude. And they had this whole concept album around this guy that was controlling people's minds by basically getting them addicted, and then helping them clean up, but then like hey I did this for us. You're going to do this for me, It's really terrifying when you couple that with what you were saying about social media, and how you've been essentially groomed to push. They've pushed you in a direction that you started right depending on what you hovered over and what you clicked on like some you're very involved in this process, but the them optimizing right second third order consequences them optimizing for time on site. The ability to leverage you to a marketer but to do that. They're optimizing you in a very specific direction and that that is allowing either bad actor. State Actors Algorithms whatever to hijack your emotions, your limbic brain to get you to. Do whatever like that should scary like when I think about the thing about what's kicked off with the riots like protesting a love I'm all for it. when it kicked off into like looking out my window and seeing things burning. It was like that's where I go. Okay like you that Shit. That gets really scary, really fast, and when you get into the weeds of like the complicated, who's actually breaking the windows? WHO's actually setting the fires and the the sort of swirl of? Very difficult to parse apart things. Presents itself to you. That's where like understanding how to begin to extract the information how to learn about something that you don't know about There was a lot of pressure to speak out, and I was like I'm not saying Shit until I understand what's actually going on, and even just going into that and beginning to realize okay, this is a big world is complicated. There's there isn't a party line like it's being presented. There are a lot of different thinkers across sort of every. Statement that's being made. There's somebody that disagrees with it quite vehemently. So. My strategy for that and be super curious to to hear what you think on this, so I've got what I what we talked about earlier. The physics of being human, so any data point that I take in Hasa Jive with what I know is true about humans in the way that humans act and think and process, and when I see people just repeating the medic statements over. The odds are that's not an original thought for you because you're just repeating the same thing and then also looking at both sides of the argument, so it's like I know how algorithms work because as a person with a youtube channel like you have to understand how it works to make sure that your stuff is getting presented people, so you learn real fast with the algorithm likes what it doesn't. Doesn't you learn what the Algorithm is using? As a barometer of whether this is something that should be pushed out more. See pay attention to that stuff, so Mike I know if I watch this type of voice I'm going to get more of that type of voice. Then you've got to actively seek out the other side and there's been so many times when I'm like Whoa like that's brilliant coming from. Day and well, this is brilliant coming from side be, and so it's like until I get a sense of like the edges right? Okay, this is edge case over here. This is case over here now. Actually understand filtered through what I know to be true of the way that the human mind works now I think I'm beginning to understand this thing and I can begin to sort of try out my own ideas, and that's what I do then the next thing so I've taken in all this data. Data the next thing I. DO I my poor family? One of the coolest things that come out of quarantine has been we now do these weekly calls with different people and I. Try out ideas on them and I'm like. Yeah, this is how I'm thinking about this. What do you think and I begin to realize where Oh shit I thought I understood this, but like my own logic is breaking down and having to articulate it I realized for the where the edges of my ignorance are and. That helps me okay. This is where I need to go. Research. I need to figure this out more but I don't have a particularly useful way of going Oh shit. That was all false propaganda to begin with. Do. You have a way of. Like. Are there certain outlets that you trust? How do you build trust me? That's the easiest way. Trust around information. I would say that. The idea that there are any. Authorities that I just trust enough that I can cognitively offload the process of coming to believe to them is not a real thing currently. And that if you think about legitimate authority. Whether whatever scenes legitimate for a while it was the Christian church or more, government, or then the academies, and the you know the Great Ivy League institutions. and. They're supposed to be the bastions of what is true. Let's fucking powerful. So everyone who wants power has maximum incentive to try to capture OP legitimate authority towards the purposes. And so you start funding the research institutes to research, certain things, and not others and. Even if So. I can easily manipulate statistics to say most anything I want. I can cherry pick data out of very large data sets to say everything's getting better. Everything's getting worse or whatever it is that I want to say. we can, of course do false method all lie, but we can even have information that is totally true. That is Miss Representative and will guide people in the wrong direction. Because let's say I have a face space of information. That's all this information, but I'm intentionally only doing research on this area over here in publishing a bunch of research on the preponderance of data points to such and such, because there was an uneven distribution of woke up funded based on those dollars came from somewhere in there seeking return on investment. And certain things are going to be. More useful. A patentable farm drug is going to get more research dollars than a plant based nutrient that no one can patent to ever be able to pay the money back, so preponderance of data will say nutrients don't work as well as Pharma Drugs Do. But the preponderance of data's gibberish. in that particular case, and then also what metrics was looking at well, it didn't cause any negative side effects because we looked for these four side effects while the body's pretty fucking complicated, you can cause lots of side effects that are outside of those who you measured. So as soon as you understand the process of legitimate authority, having a maximum incentive to get co opted. Then you start understanding okay. This idea that I can offload the cognitive complexity of the world thority can continue to have a child like consciousness and find the parent who will tell me how the world is in what to do stops being a desirable goal. And the desire to take the responsibility to make sense to increasingly make sense of the world myself now that doesn't become sole of cystic where I think I'm not going to pay attention to people who've spent lot of time studying, but let's say I'm looking at Kobe. And I'm looking at. The topic of viral origin did it come from a wet market. Naturally do not only did it come from gain of function, research, accidentally or intentionally bio, warfare, or let's look net conferred immunity. will getting it confer immunity, so will reach community will getting it confirm unity for some people, but not others, or for a short period of time where will not actually create enduring her immunity, or will it create a d. e. antibody? Dependent enhancements were then one of the normal krona. Viruses will kill you next time you get it. Nobody knows I can tell you from looking at the research. The answer to that is not known. And so all the stuff on Sweden's about to reach immunity or this. Is All just. People over extending what could actually be known so? One of the key things is being able to identify what things do. We have high confidence on based on what process and what things do we not have high confidence and just acknowledging that, so that's a question I'm always asking. What are the knowns? And what are the things that we know we don't know? or at least we end, the knowns are never one hundred percent certain right there some busy and confidence margin less than one hundred percent, but I can say high competence based on this process, but I'm still open to new data. And then here's the area of unknown, so I want no certainty at all here. Cause any certainty at all. Even a hunch can bias me in terms of what I pay attention to so just want to say I. Do you try to eliminate even your hunches like? Do you want all the hunches you try to what I try to run all of them I see? So, if I say, there's a barrage who thinks or an immunologist who thinks one thing we will get immunity and someone else thinks we won't based on different ways that they're waiting data. So do. I pay do I. think that experts who spent thirty years studying a field Moore smart. No things don't that I should listen to. That is different than like. TV personality WHO DOESN'T ANYTHING ABOUT IT? Thanks. Yes, fi like opined experts who disagree. But that seem ernest as opposed to seem like they are doing some piece of propaganda. And then I like to see the dialectic where I think possibly I have to tell people what a dialect! How does it different How is it different from a debate? So. Yeah this important topic I saw you and Eric Weinstein discussing this a bit so. Dialectic is the idea that you can have a couple of different perspectives that each have some truth value in them, but maybe neither of which are the whole truth, and the rather than a debate were the ideas. One of them is true. One isn't and there's going to be some kind of rhetorical warfare, and then someone will be the winner at the end. There's a CO exploration coming from different perspectives to see. Can we actually find the Higher Order Truth Together? I'm super obsessed with this. So the the idea of trying to find a higher order truth this this is you want to know what really grinds my gears the fact that. Do people give a shit about what actually works like I. Swear to God. People just want to be right and as somebody who used to be stuck in that loop I. Get it I. Have Empathy. I fucking have empathy, but man everything my life change when I stopped trying to be right and I started saying because my thing was, I was entrust me when I get the example I'm about to give you his game aid to the Max. But when I was younger, my focus was entirely on getting rich, but wasn't acting I wasn't acting like I. wanted to get rich I was acting like I wanted to be right. And so there was a day where they collided, and it was like I was arguing for an idea in the business, because it was mine, and there was a voice in my head, saying you know this is wrong. This isn't gonNA work. This is going to move the business backwards, but I needed to be right, and so I kept fighting for it I ended up getting my way. Way My partners left and I was like the fucking my doing like I. Know that what I just convinced them to do. We'll move us backwards, so do I want to be right or do. I want to be rich and finally I realized Jesus Man. If I could build myself a seem around something else then I could actually achieve my goals, but if I was focused on just. Being right that I was never going to get I wanted to go, and when I look at the screaming. That's happening right now. I don't think it ends in actually improving the situation. I don't think that by the rhetoric that I'm seeing about like defunding cops and all that were actually going to get to the beautiful place that I think people want to get to, so it's like. You're not going to be able to figure out how to actually solve the problem unless somebody can propose. Hey, let's defend the police. Okay, read this look at that Hey, no, this is what we need to do over here. Cool. Let's look at that like when you can actually stop and look at it you can get to. The goal, but like I said at the beginning, most people don't know their actual goal is, they can't state it, and then on top of that they're so worried about being right or sticking to the Party line, or whatever that they're? They're not in this dialectic where you're bringing like. Lincoln. With his team of rivals. I was like that's so powerful in a business I. I go way out of my way to make sure that my team challenges. My thinking that if you're an intern challenge. If you think I'm saying something stupid fucking, tell me because I might be actually being stupid and I have so much the line. All I. Care About is the truth. and. That's like one of those. It will be better for you. You will be happier if you focus on actually getting what you want. But it is, it's one of those things man the physics being human by default. People want to be right by default doesn't mean that they can't switch it up and change, but Jesus by Default People WanNa be right. Ted, talk, this woman gave this one of my favorite Ted talks and I think it's on being wrong as a choose describing a book she had written which was studying the psychology of humans experiencing wrong. And She asked the audience What is ability to be wrong and people said embarrassing shameful whatever? And she goes. No, that's what it feels like to find out. You're wrong. To be wrong is to feel right right. Typically, we're we're. We actually think we write about stuff wrong about that's an would like is righteousness. and. So you were fortunate in that. You knew you were full of Shit. Right that was actually fortunate. Most people when they are righteous and adamant filled with. You know passionate and certainty actually think they're right. That's much more dangerous because then it becomes harder to reflect on what the fuck my doing. Do, you think they have unease or they are are. Are there people who truly have no sense? Okay so. memes live in complex, the create worldviews that are self perpetuating itself reinforcing. So let's say we take a particular fundamentalist religious mean plex. and. There's a bunch of different ideas ideas about if I die in holy war than I go to heaven, there's attornal life in there's hell into I've got both I've got all of the evolutionary biology on punishment motives plus reward motives plus authority motives, plus the desire for certain plus in group stuff was the desire to not be out grouped at appealing to every level of maslow's hierarchy, every emotional aspect of evolutionary biology, but then. You've got core memes. You got supportive. memes protector means like a whole football team and the protector moves are anything that would fuck up believing that there is a way to deal with it right, so doubt comes from the devil. And will make you burn in hell forever and faith is the highest virtue. Basically says. Critical thinking is evil and creates maximum limbic fear for use of the prefrontal Cortex it would try and do. The critical thinking will end up stimulating the amid deliver shut off the prefrontal Cortex, and so that's actually a very neurologically advance protector, mean complex to make sure that the thing that could get you a question if all these beliefs are actually unfounded, gibberish won't be effective against you. And so most worldviews have protector means built in. And so that even if I'm feeling uncomfortable, I have a way of rationalizing it. Do you so I've heard you talk about this before and I thought this is so brilliant. How do you go from Jesus saying all the lovely things bringing people together. To fighting the Crusades in his name like how you do, the mental gymnastics deal like what was the protector meam in that mean complex that allowed people to pull that off. When the SS troops were being tried in the Hague for war crimes after World War Two. I. Don't remember the The exactly the questions were raised, but they were being asked questions to determine. To try to understand the phenomenon of what happened how Germany that had been berry actual liberal before moved into that place, and also the likelihood for those people to some more actions get. And so they were asked all the questions specific to the situation they were than were asked general questions of the type. Did you believe everything you're doing? What's right? And one of the things, so fascinating was something like ninety percent of the Nazi said No. I didn't believe everything I was doing with right. I did at the beginning when we were hearing about what an oppressed people! We were in the bad people that were trying to oppress us, and the juice seemed to be rich when we report faulk in the way Mar Republic and had to be selling our kids into slavery in like it seemed like they were doing it consciously in, and we were just standing up for ourselves, and so originally I did, but then we started getting the places that were really fucked up and so ninety percent of them, said No. I didn't think it's all right then they're asked. Did you ever try and stop and one hundred percent of them said no never tried to stop. And then when they were asked why they would quote German phrases that had been drilled into their heads or basically officers orders. And IF I. If I went against this I'd be put in the gas chamber. It and I wouldn't have made any difference like the whales saying if I don't do it, somebody else will right. And I have my kids deal with, and I didn't have the power to stop it in the and yet ninety percent of the people actually felt that way. So the same was true with the inquisition or the or the Crusades or the. And it's even a true today of if you grow up in a very religious area. What is what happens if you give up on the religion? Right so we know what the punishment for apostasy and fundamentalist Islam is but. If you grow up in Utah Strict, Mormon area and you give up on mormonism. Then you get excommunicated depending on how they relate to it. You lose all the benefits you're in group completely destroys maybe the idea that you're going to lose heaven, and all those kinds of things so. People believe things. Less because they are true and more because they are useful than they realize. Useful and staying in the group staying in the good, graces meeting some. Mostly people believe things because it seems like it will meet some need for them or believing something else will damage that need. And then they rationally backfill epistemology, but they didn't do a pistol molly to come to the belief, they emotionally came to the belief, and then they backfill epistemology. So, rationalizing is the opposite of being rational. Being rational is not starting in. Well! Being rationalist starting with I don't know. Let's go through the process. Let's try what are all the hypotheses? What is the evidence for all the hypotheses? Rationalizing is jumped straight to believe and now I'm going to try to create backfield. Rationale for it. And pretend that that's how I got. Give you actually a really interesting example. One of the things, the political left in the US likes to do is make fun of the political right for being stupid. You can see with Bill Maher or other kinds of COMEDIANS and. It's part of their narrative warfare strategy, feeling superior through being more educated and whatever. and. And the political right has its methods of narrative fair and. So I'm not commenting on the rightness or not of the underlying ideas, but the the weaponry that soon you. And nobody wants to feel really stupid, and so you actually stay in group. By laughing at the people who are on the out group as opposed to defending the people who are so obviously stupid that you're obviously stupid. If you even sympathized with them at all right, so that's actually appealing. To Bury. Not Rational, things in group out group desire not to seem stupid. in the name of higher intellect. So it's very tricky and sophisticated so. There's A. Left comedian, who went to some trump rallies recently and interviewed trump supporters made a compilation of how utterly stupid trump supporters are now. Of course, he didn't include any of the places where trump supporters that are well educated and have good philosophy, and there are other ones that will show right oriented people going to a bunch of left or Antifa people make them look like idiots so they they'll both use that tactic. Right, so of course the first thing we have to see as laughing at the dumb trump supporters in this thing. It was cherry picked for that purpose. Of the people to give the sense that that was acquitted that they're all that though right? Okay so you watch the thing and it's actually impressive how much these people have rejected! There's actually pride around anti-intellectualism within this population. There's a particular part of the right that has an anti intellectual pride. And so they the guys you know saying very. Basic things about government or how bill becomes law, whatever intentionally like showing how stupid the people are that they don't know the basics of politics in their certain of wrong things and whatever? And then tries to take it further and says if if if trump used the N. word. Would you vote for him? Yeah, I'd still vote for him if he whatever and they ran different things at at one point, and said something like if trump said, everyone needs to start fucking pigs. Would you vote for yeah, I'd still vote. And what it was trying to say. Is that guy who says he had so vote for saying? My mind is not open to new ideas. Like my mind has closed to new ideas I, have already made my decision. I'm going with it Jeff. Say what made him get their. Well one of the things it's actually insightful is. Key intuited in some place that he couldn't make sense of what was going on. The pundits were talking. It was above his head, and that they were trying to use intellectualism and. Data and statistics in whatever to say things that felt like they were gonNA fuck his world. That weren't in his interest. Right the teams against his interest. And so he basically said I know my mind. He's not sophisticated, but subconsciously I. Know my mind is a battleground. Of people more sophisticated than me who are going to try to convince me? What is true, but I don't think they have my interest in mind so this trump guy. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. Actually feel safer being on his side in a world that feels like it's in war. If feels more like me and he feels like he might win. I don't want this susceptibility of people trying to confuse me to be possible, so it's very interesting to see how the that anti intellectual thing was actually a compensating weapon. Of, intellectual weapons, being used to control people in ways that they could tell weren't fully in their interest. That that's really interesting, and this is where. Cognitive distribution to make it sound fancy the fact that sadly not all minds created equal. It's like man when you have like. When I look at people that are clearly smarter than me I'm just like do this is. Deeply problematic to try to make sense of what they're saying to engage with what they're saying it is. I get it man I i. feel for people when it you. You can tell you being moved around the board like a chesapeake and you're not sure where the trap is coming from, but you know that there is a trap coming. And hold on one second 'cause. I have an alarm going off. All right sorry about that I'm normally. I don't film this late, so I didn't even think to check my bad. So. Yeah, when you've got somebody that is just you know outperforming you and you can feel. You're being moved around that chessboard. It is so disconcerting. Thing that I can see how people would end up down. And, so this is why we like. Debate, says we think. That guy is saying something that I seem to disagree with, but he's smarter than me. I want to put my smart. Candidate up to battle with him. The higher angel of our nature. Is Wanting to actually understand by them going back and forth, and then being smart enough to come up with the counters that we wouldn't have now. The lower angels of our nature, just watching dogfight. And that's why you'll see SAM. Harris of rates Noam Chomsky whatever those? Of title that go around. It's really those people when they're watching aren't trying to learn. They're trying to, and that's why you'll see. In a debate, the people who were very very strong, fans of one of the people are sure that person one at the end on both sides mine really move because that's actually not appealing to the higher angels of their episode drive, but the lower angels of their desire. Because this is the thing, there isn't some way at the end to determine, which one is actually right clearly, so the guy who's making the arguments of the people who resonate with the type of arguments he likes his arguments. Resonate with him. Is True in the other one? Don't resonate is true, and ultimately my sense of truthfulness is kind of a felt sense. Dude, let me tell you as somebody who does a lot of public speaking I will tell you right now that I can move an audience by changing, not what I say, but how I say it and I learned very early on that by putting time and energy into getting good at the performance of layer of a talk. Made a huge difference, and so when I was young I wanted to be a stand up comic, and so I spent a lot of time in front of audiences. I spent a lot of time practicing what I was doing with my face, modulating my voice and. It is it is. A little. It's exciting when you feel like you're doing things for the right reasons, but it's a little unnerving when I think about like charisma goes a long way man just by the way that you make somebody feel. They always say you don't remember what somebody did or what they said. You remember how they made you feel and so of you can make somebody feel good if you can hide them up and. And I tell audiences all the time, and this is sort of core friction of my life. Is I have what I call a two hour declining arc of influence, so if you if you get a room, somebody, my whole thing is in the room. If you give me I will fucking make somebody feel something I can be very persuasive when I really believe in something and I'm really passionate because I can. Can bring that out I. Can Energy Infects of the people, and so you can infect them with your enthusiasm. You can get him hyped up, but as soon as I walk away. It's like that sense of like try to give. People sense that they can do it right whatever it is like you can do it. You can make it. Come true and let me tell you and I know that when I walk. Walk away that feeling begins to wane, and so it's like. How do you get beyond just the the ability to whip people into an emotional frenzy and actually get them to think critically to form an opinion to say okay I actually think. I understand how these pieces work together. And then it's like you can begin to form your own opinion, then you. Can you know how to move through the world, but? Otherwise. How to do that for your listeners right now. How? please. Because similar this conversation might have some impact on them for like a day. Maybe right, but the moment they have scrolled their facebook feed. They've forgotten about it and they're now fully inundated with other things and. So how why would why do we bother doing this at all? So if someone is feeling in particular kind of residents inspiration, they have to take some actions that will keep. Feeding nurturing that? And so let's talk about a few people can do because when you're in the room with them. Whether it's just that you're giving better information, or you're emotionally influencing them. They're influenced by what they're around. And, so if some, but then when you leave their influenced by whatever their next we're trying to do is make them have more of internal locus of control to be more self influencing. The the kind of influence. I would say illegitimate power. In a game be sense, illegitimate power is where I'm trying to influence people towards my agenda perpetually. Legitimate powers were I'm trying to influence them to be more self directed. which is basically what a good parent or a teacher is trying to do is to increase someone's capacity to make their own good sense making their own good decisions. And whereas to the degree them trying to convince them what to think that aligns with agenda. I HAVE THAT IS A. You know game theoretic thing that will then produce counter responses of other people who wanna come in some of some of the thing. But? As, people are seeking to become more. Self determined. The first thing is to recognize how much you're not self department to recognize how much information streams coming into your eyes and ears, and who you around influences and start Djing that one of the best acts of self determination is to change the things other than you that are influencing. And so we talked about the problem of social media. If you care about your own wellbeing enough, you'll just quit social media. Your, well, being your ability to understand the world and you'll start finding. Sources of news that are better than social media that aren't ai curated for Olympic optimization for you that you're curing based on what seems to be good information. And you'll find left sources and writes sources and sources from other countries and whatever to try to make sense of stuff. If you're going to stay on social media, there are some things you can do to do a better job which is, let's say that you are. Politically aligned in a direction. You're left aligned. Go find all of the right fingers and follow them. And join a bunch of those groups. If you're right line do that with the left. whatever your particular perspective is and find the ones that seemed to be the most actually smarten earnest. And then on, follow all the stuff that seems to be. SALACIOUS and not well-researched. So that. Your feed becomes the smartest from all of the perspectives. And if this is working, you'll become less certain about everything. You'll know that it is working because you will know more than you knew before, and you'll be less certain whereas right now. You know less than you're more sort. Yeah that I think that's a really powerful and the thing. I I'm really obsessed with this idea. I want people to understand that. What I normally say. Skills have utility, but information has utility and man I don't. From where on the political spectrum, an idea comes from if it's real, if it has real world implications and it leads me. Move Towards a goal that I have I'm GONNA. Take it and I actually cannot understand. Anything else so it's their. Their powerful I've in this all came for me. Because of building businesses like when your house is on the line. You don't have time to worry about whether you thought of the idea or somebody else side of the idea or somebody life out of it or somebody. You don't thought of it. It's just like Jesus Dude I. Don't WanNa have to go home and tell my wife that we have to move out because we lost a house like that was such a real thing for me, and that kicked me into just an I had already been sorta marching down that path, but that kicked me into a whole `nother level of like I need to know what works man. I need to know it works. I have a goal I need to know what's going to move towards that goal and. It also, it felt better like there's a sense of relaxing because I'm not trying to Posher I'm not trying to campaign. I used to say all the time and unfortunately I was wrong about this, but I used to say all the time. People just be good, because you can't campaign and convince people that you're good now. The sad reality is you actually can. You can bamboozle a lot of people with a lot of words, but. Being good itself is going to take you a lot farther and the getting people interested in that like. Game in themselves like okay cool I want this curated feed that is bringing me a diverse array of opinions so that I can actually function, and if people got into that idea of functioning, but the goal here is to function, it's to actually be useful to be able to so I power very differently than you, but the way that I defined power. Maybe it's just the wrong word. At least for this conversation is power is being able to closure is imagine a world better than this one. Open your eyes and actually have the skills to move towards that to make that real and. I have become so obsessed with that idea that it helps like that becomes almost the filter by which I make sense of the world like if I really think about like what's what's one of my highest level filters, it's like I. Only do and believe that which moves me towards my goals and. If you're good at choosing your goal. Then you suddenly become open to any good idea from wherever even if it contradicts like I came into it, thinking one thing, but like Whoa, that's actually more. That's real. That's actually going to take is not something I ever thought like. I never thought that and I don't know enough about game. Be Enough if like I'm behind it or not, but it's like hey, if he ends up being the most real thing and there is a way to deal with adjust freakish amount of complexity, and that we actually can consciously build something that moves us towards that. And it becomes A. My values would definitely be sustainability human wellbeing like those are sort of inextricably connected wanting the human race to go on long after I'm here wanting people to struggle, but struggle wells so that they can be tough and be resilient like those are all things that to me seem inherently good more than say happiness or something like that, which is very transient But like. Seeking out the things that will actually get me there and the process of iteration, and at the risk of just completely derailing tangents here that to me that sort of mixture of like iterating. Get it out there try. Be, sincere in pursuit of what's actually going to move you towards your goal like that is. If I had magic fairy dust that can sprinkle on people to get them to and accordance with that I think they would be happier. and it certainly would. Lead to a better world in my estimation, this is interesting and at the at the risk of opening a very big can of worms Did? The you said that it isn't necessarily true that improving the individual will improve society or Miss Remembering that. Is Not necessarily true that improving some subset of individuals in a particular. Way Will. Improve society like. Someone getting better violin is improving them improving their skills. Someone getting better at warfare. is improving their skills. So. Is Society the result of the quality of the members. Yes, but are the members, also the result of the quality of the civilization systems, the education and the economics and the culture and the governance that help condition and develop them also. Yes, so it's not just bottom-up individuals to society or just top down the quality of a society of oaks, different things from the individuals at there's a recreation there. so. I. Think. There's a tangent there I don't want to go down. I want to go back to something. You said a moment ago. When you were talking about the desire to be right, and how problematic that was, and when you let that go. Ego In that way. Makes you very easy to control? Because all I have to do is appeal to your desire to feel right and I can control you. I can give you information that I've taken more time than you have the process to frame it up. That will make you feel right and can pick what you believe. I can also inflame you into emotion by attacking your sense of rightness or whatever. So having a fragile, that wants to seem right, and that is fragile identified with certain positions. Makes you very vulnerable to control? That's an important thing having a mindset where. Anything can. Be brought up and your identities not attached to specific belief structures. The belief could change, and you don't crumble as a result of it. Makes you much more resilient? Yeah resiliency is Is One of those things from an intrinsic standpoint that if people want that in themselves, and they're actually willing to put that to us, You can begin to get anti fragile and anti fragility. In terms of building a new society I know is a is going to be a pretty important thing. Do you think that we have any ideas that could actually cause so anti fragility for anybody? That's never heard the phrase before the more you attack, the stronger it becomes so. What on Earth would that look like at the societal level? I, it is a failure of imagination for me. I can't imagine it. Capitalism has been empty pregil. as a system of resource, distribution, and etc it. It has continued to evolve. It's capacities. So we went from. Say Barter to Exchange mediated by currency to. Currency to fractional reserve currency attacks upon that made it stronger. Well if one. Capitalist Group say another nation, or whatever was trying to advance their overall share, the pie relative to a kept each strengthening their underlying capitalist base, becoming better at extraction exchange, those types of things. when Communism was emerging as an alternate system, it increased its capacity to be productive and defend itself, and whatever so that's an example of anti fragility. You were asking earlier. How does someone go from the forgiveness of Jesus? To the to the Crusades, there was a belief system. Christianity continued to get stronger and stronger men as it was attacked by other religious ideologies. Or political ideologies. It was increasing its. and. This actually interesting, because anti, not always good, because sometimes it just means the thing is getting. Better at warfare. I, actually WANNA bring the trump campaign. Has. Elements, of anti fragility. So whether it was stormy, Daniels or the Russia issue or the impeachment. His base actually got stronger through each of those. And so one of the things that the left has not recognized, they failed to recognize anti fragility and that they were logging tax. That would lose, but would actually strengthen. And so that's an important thing to recognize because if something is become anti-craft Joel and you think it's bad going instant. You have to think in a different way. And actually I'll use trump as an example here of the thing you were mentioning around. LISTENING TO DIVERSE OPINIONS The we we know that. he's a different kind of president than the politically trained ones that have been there before whether people think that he is saving the nation from the corrupt evil deep state, or whether he is destroying it to create his own evil dynasty. Is One of the classically polarized things that people have a hard time grounding enough. They grounded in the thing that resonates true without seeing the other things. But I think everyone knows he's been effective at a particular thing. I know a couple of people who have been who worked with them closely been on the security. Council or you know in his. VISOR board who said the same thing about their experience working with him in the presidential or said one thing I found very interesting. Is that. Where most of the president's previously had positions that were fairly. Consistent and predictable. Bush did kind of Bush things Obama did kind of Obama things and they got people around them that had a similar ideology in that had for some period of time, right? The Obama Democrats before they were Democrats, Clinton Democrats they were of a certain type. Seems Bush Focus? trump got people who were mostly not of that. Of a particular lineage system and he got people who disagreed with each other being mentally. And So if he would bring portray us into a room and Bannon into a room together to talk about China because they both knew more about it than he didn't. He knew that, but they disagreed vehemently than what they what I was told what happened in the room is that he would invite a group of people in without giving them any advance. Notice of what they were going to talk about. So they couldn't prepare how to manipulate winning, so he got their extemporaneous real sense brought in people who disagreed he would ask a question without giving an indication of what he thought it. Keep a poker face on the whole time to not indicate that what he believed, and you just keep asking questions and have them fight it out. And and he would actually sit there quietly and listen hours. And once he had heard enough then. He still wouldn't tell them what he thought he'd go straight to twitter. because. He didn't care if they agreed with him or not. He cared of his support base did in twitter gave him an instant way to communicate with the support basing real time analytics based on the big data analysis of the twitter feed of whether what he was saying was coalescing his support base Renault. While, and so that is an effective technology where what he's doing is listening to different viewpoints. Now what he was listening for is not necessarily what is true, but what will be affected for coalescing my support base? but he also had much more direct communication with people and much faster feedback now also when you don't have a position and of like Bruce Lee said about martial arts right when you don't have fixed form when you don't have rigorous positions, you can take the position that is coalescing the support base empirical more, which is both terrible and wonderful depending upon what your oldest. Man So yet this is I'm I'm. Not surprised by this conversation given that you are the person I came across when researching the end of the world and how civilizations crumble. Dude the way that you are taking the entire. Ecosystem of things have to be taken into consideration. Into consideration it is. It is very interesting I'm going to be watching you very carefully. with what you. Continue to put out in terms of game be and how we move forward intelligently I think we're in a super weird time. but dude. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for and maybe would warned me against us, but thank you for being a part of my sense making apparatus I will not take you literally. I will definitely look things up and form my own opinions, but man you definitely fall into the category of people that I think are saying things in a rational way. metered way that makes a lot of sense to me so. Word, thank you. It's good to be. Here is fun to have the conversation with you. Do No joke Hopefully we will connect again soon and thanks again, everybody. If you haven't already be sure to subscribe, so I can fuck up your algorithm and Intel national hands the legendary. Take care everybody. Thank you so much for listening. If this content is delivering value to you, please go to tunes go to. Rate and review that helps us build this community, and that is what we are all about right now. Buildings community as big as we can to help as many people as can deliver as much value as possible and you guys rating and reviewing really helps with that all right guys. Thank you again so much and until next time my friends, you legendary, take care.

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#127 Rian Dawson (All Time Low)

The 8123 Podcast

49:54 min | 9 months ago

#127 Rian Dawson (All Time Low)

"The other night after the show a second to some some girls that were friends and they wanted to start a podcast and they were asking me how we do it how we get it out there. How how we re and you know thankfully I was able to tell them about anchor. Which if we would have had. When I started out this would have been way way easier and how much easier it has now gotten super easy. you know so anchor is by far the easiest way to make a podcast It gives you everything you need on one place. So you don't have to get pro tools or any fancy recording quit or anything And you can literally make podcast and edited on your phone right. They're free it's free. It's free so it gives you all the creation tools you need to edit it to make it sound good which you know if we didn't have a background in courting you know. I it it it just makes it so easy I mean. We've we've recorded parts of podcast literally into my phone and then posted uploaded in some hotel room somewhere So anchor Gives you all those tools that you need all on your phone for free and the hardest part they will distribute it for you? They'll they'll get it to spotify apple podcast. Google podcast many more Which took us a long time to figure out how to get up there and they handle all that for you for free and you can make money off your podcast with Manti advertising And Cool. Yeah it doesn't matter if ten people own who listen to podcast or hundreds of thousands so yeah Download the anchor APP or go to anchor DOT FM to get started and start your own podcast. Or if you're ready to have a podcast make it way easier on yourself and we love and we appreciate it so Yeah thank you anchor onto the show. Hello There Hi. Hello and welcome wealth. Guide you on twenty three podcast phone four to I feel I feel better now. Like just yeah. I've the first one I was like. This is weird not having you in the same room but now I'm used to it. Yeah I think this is the first second. Sorry I just I just Affect this is the first second person meets the podcast to do like a full anyway. Yeah We how about the help. Oh Yeah I don't even know what everyone should that madness. Today we have Ryan Dolphin Guy. Yeah Great Awesome Talk Drink Mile. Yeah we we Deep into talking about recording and album and It'll it'll get a bit Suppose specific for people that Play instruments for a second but But if you'RE GONNA part but for the most part it'll be in Jordan Hall. It's yeah they have a record coming out and I guess about two weeks now Very beginning of April And I have had the privilege of hearing about eight songs and it is radical So I'm super excited to hear that and hopefully you'll get some more insight on that and then summer Which is something that I meant to to bring up. We're talking but it's like we. We have been on tour in the United States or candidate with all time. Low since like two thousand and nine or eight yeah. Yeah Holy Yeah that's weird ten ten years over twelve years over ten years. Yeah Jesus so that's exciting. Yeah it's it's it's so funny looking like we are way better friends with them now than we were like at that point when we toured with them. Yeah it's it's like I don't know when that happened like in the last I don't know what are we say? Five years or so or five years. Yeah Yeah we were like. We seem to like be hanging out with them quite often. Which is it's it's great. And they've got great great guys and Couldn't be more excited tour them in the summer Yeah it's it's GonNa be an awesome to her. Yeah crazy so Yeah we're pump so we're gonNA keep kicking these episodes here show you'll be hearing from US often. So what What Room do you do these in your house right now? I just outside Staying away from because He. I got a dog barking. Got A Baby maybe crying some I Am outside but I'm keeping my people. So Pat Pat Spring. It from the outside. I'm bringing it from the shed. We're doing it we're having fun. Yes heck yeah well here here. It is our Ryan. Dawson didn't in the next couple of days. Cool there's so many places now to listen to music and podcasts that yes like paid through all these different apps now to take what you're gonNA listen to. But now on spotify they have all your favorite podcasts. All of my favorite. Yes and music to who? Don't get it all in one place. He has modified. Yeah you can. You can listen to all your favorite podcasts on spotify without even having a premium account so if you dumb of APSOS ED free free free to listen to your favorite podcasts. It just free this one. Yes they have every type of podcast. You could want. Follow all your favorite podcasts. So you don't miss an episode. It'll just be in your feed premium users. Mike me me too. I- Dammam episodes that way when I'm on a plane airplane or any shower in the car on a road trip I have podcast already downloaded. I can listen to You can share the episodes on your instagram. That's cool she's cool. You know. This is what I'm listening to. And then you can send me some button and go. Joe A new sweetest podcast. So if you haven't done already dumb of the spotify APP and search for the eight hundred twentieth three podcast and follow us on the Your Library Tab. And IT'LL IT'LL BE. They're also make sure to follow us. See never miss an episode. Do it I'm GonNa do it all right governor here. Hey Hey it going out there. It's good we We A rough couple of weeks down. Because everyone's going. Oh Yeah just got power back about Like five or six days ago and my wife I about three days ago but I'm so lucky that that was the worst of it. So man power for like two weeks riddle man so whether it's NATO hit It was I mean why the worst damage done but literally less than point one miles away my house because basically across the street on my block And so I have like three down in my backyard on my front yard From my sense then like taking down but that was that was the extent of it and then no power obviously for about nine days. Ten days And then when the tree my backyard down my wife I thought and but again like you just shit. I've seen out here like and I'm very lucky very lucky. She's hard couple of weeks ago and I feel so bad for like because obviously shutdown tornado when they open back out for like a week and then that of course again. But that's the world. Yeah crazy kind of put into words. How fucking not? So every day gets a little river to it'd just be settled on a reality and a little bit more. Yeah okay now. This is their life for the teacher. Yeah Yeah it's just like accepting that over or yeah but I think like you just don't want to keep the podcast going. Keep keep everything as good as we can and Britain prepare provide entertainment. And I'm sure that people are just so sick of only thinking about that. You know I agree. I agree completely just like trying to try and any little bit of a break from only only of that and obviously you have so much going on now. Is it feel feel good to have many songs out for? Yeah I can kind of get a taste of of what is going to be like that so we started doing the record like writing for the record although to be fair we weren't even writing for the record and started writing for fun in January February of last year. Nineteen in my studio Nash. Smell and We can after like three weeks. It has maybe twenty songs and we're like. Oh this is fucking incredible. Then they got together and Palm Springs did the same thing out there to ban guys producer co-producer and like our flash. It's hard it's Kinda guy then swank And a house in Palm Springs and just we can dive into that a little bit more if you went to but So we're just sitting on the song for a year for a year and for me like the most nerve wracking part of being banned is releasing the first song from a new record from a new project. Oh Yeah Yeah it's just terrifying 'cause you know you love it you love it at that point you know anymore like there's no perspective you just use no you know it and And so we release that. I saw the penalty faster and the results were just like the reviews from fans and critics from the next. Everyone was like overwhelmingly positive. And that's you know that feeling of just that weight off the shoulders and that just huge release of breathless unbelievable And then do it again with a second song on the record called sleeping in kind of the same thing. And and just the same ban reacting which really drives bands like you and I but fan reaction to much more so than any kind of media or anything like that And that's San reaction just kept pushing us with the very direction and then again we get away during so so far. It's been incredible but of course now. You're like Oh God they're gonNa Release the person the best three songs. Mother's good how Were you guys like always sure that the some some kind of disaster. It's going to be the first that people here 'cause I like and that's always the hardest. They like I think like the past two two records. I've I've for like essentially the first couple of option you know like in the upper because it's always you can over over not only but like you kind of think we certainly have but also like it really does steer the ship in a certain direction and there are you. They could already be like oh they have nothing like this record. And then you're just you're pulling yourself up but funny enough. When we wrote that song that was probably the second or third song he wrote in national so it was you know and and the January and we allocate kept saying to each other. I cannot wait to open with this song during the set like it's such a cool energy bills so that first chorus when I love opening with a song like that. Yeah and that's what we just kept. Like we would just fantasize about playing it on stage and so we wrote you know the rest of the record and then be never get past the thought of like. Oh wait this does feel like an opening track. Yeah the live but also it's a great case of the record. It kind of encapsulates like the feel of the entire record so it wasn't like it wasn't obvious but looking back at our discussions about how we wanted to open with. Live it kind of makes sense that it was sit in the opening with on summer. Actually a fair point. I would hope you know how good it is and you get to play like that when you open with a new song and the crowd like that like that's the that's the just makes it so the show's doesn't matter it's like Oh it's going on. We had we've had a well. I was going. I re speaking about I songs. I remember putting weightless out on warped tour because you guys played. Those couples shows on warped tour over ten years ago. Amer but you gotTa opened with that song and it was fucking crazy. I remember standing with Pat me like they. Just put this out in. Everyone's going fucking wild. It was like I have a memory of that like it's such a man. That's really cool that you remember that. Yeah and that. That was a that was time. And I don't like to you know I don't like to speak ahead of myself. But the feeling of momentum and this record on everything that's happened around it. So far is I keep saying is like when we put out Mike. When we were touring on nothing personal just an overwhelming. It's like we're just riding his way from the fan base and just you know just pushing pushing from behind and a great feeling yeah. Yeah we've definitely put out songs before the pen rocking was good. Let me go to play it live. We opened with. You can just like here. The I roll like what's up. Let's see that'd be. It's so funny like earl how instantly you can tell you know it's like you can really tell if you know this is going to be record like just our core fans are really going to be in two or if this is something that everybody is you know. GonNa live and it's like you know. Sometimes it takes a second offer like that's what's happening but you you can feel it. I remember we talked about that When we were in the building was when we put out American candy then you guys put out all right. Yeah and it was. It was like both kind of like happening at the same time. It was like this. This just feels awesome right now And being in a band and with weird about that is that it's not like I could find bad reviews about this record or about nothing. I about future hearts and positive reviews of other records. But it's somehow like you're right. It's just a feeling like there's some sort of feel dislike force in one direction like okay. We're GONNA convince the fan base or obey their along for the ride and I don't really know how it's like Kendall like that but you're absolutely right I mean. Yeah it's it's such an instant thing to like in the first ten minutes of putting song on. I think it'd be like either. Oh this is going to happen or a kind of GONNA have to. We're going to put out. When can we we? We testified on the last time I was under the guise blackouts but Yeah I remember when Dirty laundry off of renegade. I like I think that that had a big feeling that that had the same feeling like I remember listening to it and I just wait like two minutes heavy guitars. They're coming and they're going to be there and everything like that and I remember the feeling like yeah. They're not gonNA take some convincing and I just don't have that right now. Yeah I mean what a better feeling have going on. Yeah for sure. And I mean Kevin seeking it ends up this certainly but yeah it is a lot in in your. You have this emotion from the past year of ups and downs and like you know the record son and not involved this feeling putting it out and having everyone accepted. Just like fucking yeah. Yeah was there. Was there any debate between some kind of disaster and sleeping in because I mean they're both awesome but the chorus I texted you about it when when you send it to me that I mean. That's that's momentum. It's your no oddly enough like that was actually sleeping and wasn't going to be a A freely song and oh well we had. I mean I was absolutely going to be on the record. The first day we wrote it but and it's like it's a lot of our favorites but yeah it was actually a little bit more indicative of the record as a whole and we didn't want to do that thing where you know sleeping pretty just class like pop punk song you know and the rest of the record isn't necessarily that whereas the rest of the record you know there's parts of it. There's the record sometimes disaster on you know there's parts of every song in that song where we can kind of like in its own world so we didn't WanNa like didn't want and then I got no mind. Yeah but that man playing that Song. Live 'cause you know what my weightless weightless song. Even though I was eleven years old I still love bring it live And Sleeping in. I feel like you know ten years from now. We're still playing but I feel like it's going to be like that. It's such a fun. Crowd Som- fun joining song and just the energy of it is. It's great how often so. Yeah I I you you you kind of mentioned it a bad that I guess have recorded just like in a house where you didn't go into a proper recording studio with without you know some big shot producer and stuff We did that with American candy. And and with Who was like the best thing that we ever did is just so so fun. Games like the environment and makes making an album it. You're like WHOA. Why the hell did we ever do it any other way? Yeah man it's so true and you kind of like you know we obviously were very similar bans on that we've been together forever. We all get along with one. Another but touring with each other is a lot different than created with each other. And you kind of forget the parts of your bandmates and their best friends that you you forget about that aspect of like Oh shit yeah. It's great to play music with these people but even greater create these people that was that was kind of lost on me for a while. And so. Yeah when you wake up in a house with your four bandmates for three and that day you're just you there's there's a blank slate just create and and there's no pressure there's no like there's no studio owner lording down on you know big shopper. Do me like I've got a meeting at five. We've got to wrap this up there. Were days that we'd work until three. I'm days that we'd go out to dinner at seven PM. Gets around? Come back with more? And they're just hang around the pool all day not working all if we weren't feeling it and it didn't feel like it didn't feel like we were creating a record. It just felt like we were hanging out and back in the basement and just writing for fun and I think that Kinda shows through on the on the whole record. Yeah that's that's that's awesome. So what was the intention to record the record in that house or do we just just going right I well. It started like I said in Nashville. What happened was That's been my studio and you know night studio and you could do anything. There and Alex just wanted to do everything in the control room so we would take scratch. Guitar Tracks Which for the listeners. Just like a demo guitar track not final. It's sloppy house would sit on the couch in the control room with like a three hundred dollar. Mike and the vocals. He didn't want vocal booth. He wanted instant feedback. He wanted to be able to be like. Oh it's out again. Talked to Servini right there and talk to me right there. Kilgore we're now like his process. Became the seamless. Little again was just more relaxed. If he had lyrics change you wanted to do we might be working on. Song for take me go back to and I just WANNA. I'm doing the chorus. And because there was just so much fluidity he could just do it from the couch. Fell in love with that so when we went to Palm Springs. It was the same thing. I mean we recorded in this marble house. And he's he listened to those vocal takes it out is brutal like all you hear is reverted echo and like you know. A blender in the background was like don't being a pool in the background and that was just Howard stuff. I mean it was hard parts a little sloppy. A lot of them are just like scratching our parts The only thing we went back in my overdubbed where The drums. Obviously we didn't record the drums so interesting for that And some of the vocal take really quiet and like you could hear the actual house like we do some of that but yet insensitive was just too. I think it. There's just too right. And then because of modern technology and things like you know tempers and just plug INS. You don't need a ton a partner. I mean it was just a macro and FM seven although six Mike. Seven all the percussion with an and And Kemper and that was pretty much it earned then base was denied in their right in the you know most of the base record back with a dripping bathing suit. No-shirt on Did he ever do that before? I feel like that'd be the only way you could probably fill in instead of most of the base part because most of the most most of the tax return. Yeah who knows that it just? It just was a lot. There was no deadline. Like the fan base didn't really know we were recording a record that they knew we were together and then we were writing. Maybe but there was no like stay tuned for. What's next so like when you hear this banner you know they were together so there was just zero pressure and then moving along was a really great experience. Did you actually record or write any stuff in palm springs like as your store. Yeah so On the record setting an example. There's probably a good record. Maybe a little bit more than Palm Springs And you know like some day. We wake up in Allen and be like math. I'm not really sure on that creative today. Like Ryan and you PROGRA. Drums is active Basic Jackie Guitar and then there are other days. He was just wake up and I had this idea and it started with just roll with that and it is just like again just fluid. We would just switch gears whenever it made sense. Now how How much mapping out the drum parts like on the on the computer before your according to fix the film and pretty much too Yeah so it's the way when I working on my producing the way that I've always on. It is just like by the time the drummer or me gets in there like the parts are already there if I'm the drummer especially And so yeah. There's a few things that I changed in the moment but for the most part I would with surveying program the drums. Exactly how I would like them to sound so that drums the last time you did on the records so there was no surprises. And there's no change of steel or anything like that. Yeah we put Pat through hell. We always have like we really hoops. And then when he's actually doing it we're like no no try. This birth weight. Don't like do like this and it's always people who don't play drums. That like say to do this. Absurd shit that's like impossible. You play in two minutes. I'll have it. It's it's always funny. I'm sorry we don't I? It's it's sucks so bad 'cause like like we'll get 'em like down pretty good like on on the computer in in in Salt Lake. Sit and listen to and then I got it and then on some action that every time like hey but like I said there's this great I think I think last night but I don't care if I didn't put the where Selwyn you know. How good vocals themselves like. Hey let's try this and hot. This goes yeah. That's not a bad idea. I'm just trying to think of what I would do. If I was a singer Blake would I be to say at some point as a drummer? Like just because you can mouse a drum part. Doesn't mean it should be fucking play but like you know and sometimes working good where there's like parts that. I wouldn't have thought of in taxi. There's like the like little drum like sutter kind of like like a triplet thing like yeah. I ended up a lot. Of course. It's like I wouldn't have done that and he's just like you know just like do this and then you know anti man part in the amount of fines after a drum bay where I got. Alex and I'm like you know having beers whatever and I'm like I'm sorry man again you're so right. Yeah 'cause they had an overhead view you know what I mean. You're so you're so laser focused when you're playing how you heard it that it's hard to accept anything out this being a better idea and there's so much like there's so much like pressure like everybody else is in a different room and it feels like they're like talking about you the whole time talking. She's wanting you pat flowers at the grave on the last course during the song I had squire. I told him to turn the MIC on and I said do the Jimmy. Fill and so there's this Jimi world fill that I love that it's like this. Tom Hit and while he's recording it. Because it's pretty much. That whole last chunk was one. Take Housing Jimmy. Fill the next like put it in and also so good at at being got so long. It's like at knows what the Jimmy Philly and by the way knowing that song and they'll give me. I know exactly what you're talking about. Oh band talk now thirty listeners. Minute left yeah. Let's talk more about pills on. I think the other interesting thing I did was to take that that that long of a of a break which is something that I've kind of always had an interest in. It'd been like what would happen if we just didn't do anything for a year. You know Was Kinda stop processing and that we're guys burnt out or just like wh- what do other things that are I- very choosy about like my wording with this. Because I know people like you guys but like we've seen poll quotes that have been like all time. Low was on the brink of a break-up reading like But no yeah we were we were. We were tired and we were. You know time renegade with a tough record cycle for us Worrying wising incredible. It was kind of bigger than we've ever been and the bigger than ever but the of my mom facing war But the you know the we had to kind of like you convince people like we talked about earlier like we had to put on shows like no these translate live these are bad and the idea of renegade was for it to be kind of look at separation of all time low like. It's an all time. Low records ruined through and unless they were songs on it w ever done but it was like it was a departure and that was a A deliberate departure from what we've been doing and so again about record cycle we were just kind of like gas and we're just record so long you can never take a break. We didn't really know where we wanted to go. Creatively and Alex you know simple created talking to mark and writing with mark about the Jack had wanted to try and and writing a little bit more different projects when we get studio stuff and so we finally will Saddam well. Let's just fucking chauffeur a year and not focus on pouring and not not you know just hammering in more like a records and because of all because I think because we were able to flex archaic things a little bit on langauge because Alex is able to write creatures and Jack. For who hurt you we were able to Kinda rejoin as one single focus for wake up sunshine. I don't think without renegade with sunshine would have been reading. I don't think about simple creatures without who hurt. You just wouldn't have happened so by the time we got back together and refocus and everything. We just missed all time world so much and that's what Sometimes it's born out of how how or how you a year off. Were you like vodka. Kinda WANNA go back out It was warmer than I thought. Probably about two weeks Yeah man it was not. It was not long probably around you know. We started Alexander Mark National on February And that really made me WanNa go play shows and then April comes around and undertake. Oh my God but it just it. The logic was to doesn't really puffier for me because you kind of forget. Just psychologically how much cory means to you and how much it becomes your purpose in life. You know what I mean and sure I could be produced and an engineer. But that's not that's not what I do I can do. What I do. And with touring being stripped away. I kind of felt like I was floating autopilot. I'd wake up. I do my thing. I go out with friends but I was like. I didn't have that purpose. And that like feeling of. Oh Yeah. You're doing the right thing in your life right now so yeah. It didn't take long before I realized that monthly Agana Friend Group. I had Good relationships that time buying and then more importantly it came time to get back to work. I'm just ready. Yeah totally yeah. I'm I'm sharing this town. They're like WHOA weird And seeing like simple creatures out doing doing festivals and yeah it was I. I wasn't jealous. I was envious like Y- ever Alex Alex following me outside of CIPPICO Brita. When you guys studio I think we'll we ordered It's Mexican place right near my studio and I remember being outside of their and Alex calling me and I was like. Oh this is gonNa be good like from people like. I talked to Alex every day but an unsolicited phone call. Like Oh God and he goes. Hey man you know what's going on how you doing. I'm Alex what's happening here now. And he's like so you know mark and I have been talking and we've been writing together and he wanted to start a band. Mcmahon and I was like yeah and and I remember being like waiting for like some bombshell music. I JUST WANNA make sure it's it's just going to this year. It will never interfere with all time. Low talking absolutely and I was like the my initial reaction. I say this without reservation was just so fucking crowd like no one. You Know Blake with the bandwagon. The blink and for mark wants to be in a band with our main songwriter. It was incredible. So I would see them touring it'd be like. I wish I could be doing that. But it was never like with any sort of negative emotion attached to and just again maybe even more I mean I can I can. I can only imagine how would feel like that's in the I I mean. Obviously it's kind of this weird thing where you have become friends and stuff and tourism so much that the segment isn't as insane as but if you just like think back to when you guys were sixteen. It's just like Oh that's like I mean my my my first drum cover our first and everything and then the only thing I was really jealous about throughout the whole process. We'll to hurt you being able to play with the main that actually the that'd be absolutely how did you feel about? I know you you've been in a long. You guys been together Thirteen years. Yeah so how? How did it feels not if the show but like I know? Obviously it was for the best in the world. But he'll be a little rough. I mean it was very weird like I would say the first like we can have half. I was really bummed And like looking up things on instagram. And like saying Oh my God like this is so weird but I just obviously kept having to remind myself that you know the best thing ever and left angle. Yeah exactly so yeah I mean it ended up being being fine and I I. I think you know more than anything. Like Kinda gave me some time and it ended up being the you know. My my baby was born too like the last three shows of the tour. So yeah I I had a long time and it really like a lot like. Take a second room. I put some things in perspective of like what I think we should do next year. The band. 'cause like just like you guys like we're always just in like what's next what's next what's next. Let's go you know so it was like for you like running into a Garrett and boys and playing for Leeds. Yeah Yeah and I you know I kinda also forget that and I think I can say this without. I think this is true. That's not on their drummer. But you're kind of show runner. You're kind of Larry finds about this like I think individually all of the dudes are like we don't know what the fuck are doing without pets drubbing wanting but you were very much so it was a funny It's and like my getting off now. I'm just like thinking about that summer and just like so excited to get get back out there and play that I mean. I'm like you know what I've got coming up Whenever we see I mean probably pretty soon. Yeah so I mean. Obviously we just put out that statement yesterday That'd be gone out as planned and that'll be obviously got the role punches. No matter what but I feel pretty confident that that might ray of light at the end of all this like you know. It's been a rough rough month for everyone but match got hit especially hard And that's been like my. That's that's still here. Like I get the tour with friends and some of my best friend and and just all throughout the summer and that's such a guiding light for myself against and I'm I'm I'm thinking that for for the for the fans to it's like it's come. Churn feels really good to have calendar. That's like I get this full day just to have fun. You Know Yup I think it's GonNa make the shows even better. Everybody can be so excited for it. I like it feels like it's you know. Obviously this is such a horrible thing happening right now. And that's all goes without saying but you're so right now more than ever people need a reason just to relax and to relieve the smile. I think that ironically is that some of the best settle exact change. I mean just for the year happy fast. Everyone gets happy healthy. But I'm it's so I. I feel like all the other bands on the lineup and I just like when you when you when you say it out loud like you know all the stories of the main movement scale and on and on and it's just like it just sounds insane. Oh yeah and and honestly like you know how worried about First Song relief my cow edgy. You get about like Fan. Response or touring is a whole another boat. Where like you love the lineup. Or maybe you don't. Sometimes you know what's right with this lineup. I know we were all like just and they were released it and without you know without fail. Fan Base is like Yes I'm fucking going sold out here. Seventeen five a couple of hours isn't sane and then one. Oh that's awesome okay. Here's here's almost four thousand tickets today. Like wow man good for all about yeah I so often I mean there's that kind of does the tour like also Kinda. I'm Kinda feel like a return is something I bit since you guys have done a tour with this big of a package you know. Oh for sure man. I think you know a lot of foreign career or more recently especially like we kind of try to go I don't know we tried to like bring bands that maybe we wouldn't remember four with or are they wanna talk with us and then the great experience and I got to meet some dance for this summer. We just wanted to fucking play shows with our friends and you know just have as many fans able to see the show as possible and so obviously you guys we were able to curate this thing that I remember and I listen to pretty much every time on the hill Listen to this kind of music all the time. I remember thinking I would probably pay to see this show which I don't a lot I'm jaded I don't like the show but Yeah man it's we're all there's like is not. There's not one of us that's like that's fine. Art Show up for were all there could be there all day so yeah and and I. I think there's something so fun about like being on this kind of a tour in the summer. Where it's just like everybody's GonNa be hanging out you know we're GONNA set up a far backstage and everybody is going to be playing cards and drinking a hanging out and like it's just gonNa feel I it it it. It makes the whole front as opposed to just like all right. Let's wait for ourselves. So yeah I just sit around this shitty dressing room and then that hasn't been touched since nineteen sixty four. Yeah and especially like the bands that are age grew up going to work for like spending a day out of Joe. You're bad and the bands that are younger. Wish they had that. And so you know you guys festival and because the fan base like depend base. That is too young to go to work for. They know about it and read about it and they wish they could have gone so you guys created all day affair where people get to experience that and get to see their back. Yeah and regarding the bar backstage we'll be blackout fire. Set everything up to me. What makes it so cool? It's like it has like spirit. And the energy of like. You're talking about the festivals. We grew up going to like oh to work but then it has this like. It's not so like every band just a half an hour and production and like and it's just like on uncomfortable discount and it's like it'd be such a better experience for fans and Matt go the watch. I Cup full head burning Alzheimer's or in the in the dark at night you know. Yeah no I think the point is I mean obviously the Oh fun to work but there were things that the fans did not like about it and they were anything. The band is not like about it but all of that. Kinda goes away when you have. You know incentive of fifty bands on the bill. You have between five and ten. You know what I mean. That's like sticking seven but But yeah you're right kind of caters to every bad? Make sure every person will take care of. You know everyone's name there's no anonymity girls. It's more of a family circus. Yeah Yeah on the fan base as well as hitters every single family make sure that every type of pan is taken. Care of so yeah. I can't wait so yeah so so can awesome. So what are you going to be the next Two two weeks to a month ago. I'm like all excited about that. Then and I didn't Wifi a day a day or two ago so I'm like rediscovering net flicks so my goal you can street curb your enthusiasm But Yeah I'm doing. Well I like you know for us for us for people being at home and not boring you kind of get used to not getting up and going to work like so. It's not too much to ship for. People like us. Obviously not their friends in bars. Cafes and stuff is here but I know that logically probably a lot harder for people that have spent their lives waking up and spending eight nine hours at work every single day going. You know. That's kind of the struggle. I can sit around drink. Coffee workout my garage places And then go to bed like that's not different than my normal day. So I'm doing okay. So far a Lotta facetime a Lotta time and pretend like we're at a bar all drinks. Oh my are you going to bring it on? I'm doing okay The only it's kind of like I had a bit of a cold like before all this began so I just like afraid. Fear around the baby all that our hearts all that much because of course with all the UN uncertain. I've got kinda been in the other other other under the house can earn my own. So yeah but I've got to be tough. Yeah so that's that's that's been it's hard it's like. I'm I'm a time in my wife Guy. They say like feels like I'm on the road messing with. I have shed in my backyard. That is kind of my studio vibe. And I've just got keyboards back there. And I'm like going full scientists for like hour I was I was gonna say like what a great time to be a creative person like I mean I sent back but like to be forced into a creative atmosphere or just before out of your mind has gotta be great imprisoned for equated by no yeah. I mean like that's why I think it's two branches which I mean our our band was supposed to be working on like writing songs right now so it's kind of like all right. We're just working on things but you know most of the idea. It's Kinda come from John from the beginning like a anyway. So he's he's just been working away on idea so yeah and you know you might. You might hit one of those things where you're like me did last. They're putting this record is like by the time you finally get together. It'll just be like explosion like that's probably not. Yeah yeah some who can't wait for people to your home album. I think I've heard eight thousand or so and they're all out issues I wanNA know and it's like I mean that's a wonderful. I mean it's a lot it's It's not something you'd never planned to do. But we literally shitty but we just couldn't cut another one. We all agreed on the fifteenth songs and there was probably another fifteen twenty to choose from Down all of those fifteen twenty each wanted like a different rate so it but these came. We're like yeah these beyond and then by the time he realized how many had to be on we were like. Oh well that's it. That's more than a full record. Yeah I think he will be down for the ride. I definitely it doesn't get boring and there's ups and downs to it so yeah I think. Senator everybody got cool. I it's a it's a problem is we are kind of the opposite thing where we're like with only Technically there's like seven or eight actual because those are the ones that are dead that we have. We listened to demos from that time. And we're like why the fuck didn't we record this song? There's a song that we've had for since then that we always go back. Oh we're GONNA put it on this record and then it just doesn't running weird I left. It happens man just so in the product that you have no respect you have no bird's eye view of what my you know. That's not the record. So funny man. L. Dubbing thanks for doing this guy's got me back anytime. Oh Yeah we'll do a week when we're even crazy absolutely true.

Alex Alex Palm Springs spotify Pat Pat Spring Mike Ryan United States Alexander Mark National Jordan Hall Joe Google Blake producer Drums Dawson UN apple Nashville Alzheimer
FTP112: Ken Wilber - Who Are The 2nd Tier Thinkers Today

Future Thinkers Podcast

51:55 min | 1 year ago

FTP112: Ken Wilber - Who Are The 2nd Tier Thinkers Today

"Welcome back to our interview with Ken. Wilber one of the most influential people in the field of consciousness studies in modern times. This is part two and today we talked about the transition to so called second tier stages human development can comments on the modernism movement and identifies the people who embody second tier thinking right. Now you can find all the links and show notes from this episode at future thinkers dot org slash one ten. Hey Welcome to future thinkers dot org a podcast about the evolution of Technology Society and consciousness. I'm Mike and I'm you there. If you need to the show and you WANNA get a list of our favorite books popular episodes and to join our community go to future thinkers dot org slash star. I'm I'm interested to know about Some of the transition points and what you see reflected in today's conversations in postmodernism and Meta modernism. There's one thing I've noticed. You brought up. Joran Peterson. Criticism of him is that he uses the language of green To attempt to deconstruct green and to me that seemed like an integrative thing to do but people seem to understand it as he's operating from green therefore that's it's a level he's ad so I wanted to know what your perspective was on the the tools of deconstruction for the level. That people are at that they use within that level. So using green to deconstruct struck green orange to deconstruct orange. Yeah yeah and that was You mentioned The people at rebel wisdom Which is I think a terrific site And they're an important part of this. Large things called an intellectual dark web And they had carried an article that said I in essence something like Ken. Wilber integral best explains the rise of intellectual dark web and so they wanted to do some interviews with me and I said fine and so they came out and we could a non stop five hour interview discussion and they put it up as sort of three individual presentations On their website. And probably the question that we spent the most time on and and that they were most concerned with is what I love. Their specific website was founded. Because of Jordan Peterson. So obviously they had an interest in his work on what he was saying but what bothered them is he what he really was emphasizing. Whether whether we say it sounds like he's he was using crane or even using second tier but the values he was particularly emphasizing terms equal opportunity and individual freedom were values. Came came from this Orange World Century Enlightenment Stage of development and they were concerned because they didn't think that was sounded integral enough and they thought that if he was coming from integral that he would have to include that green postmodern modern stage but all we did was attacked that so how so he was really coming from orange and because he didn't include green and now with the problem and so when I try to convey wicked I actually thought that Jordan and A very very large percentage of the people on the intellectual dark with I think they really are in in most cases coming from this integral second second tier stage at whatever degree of that but again the point about that whole second tier stage or stages of development is that it really does work with holes. I mean that's what it looks for is trying to find unity the way things stick together And doesn't have them Keleti galaxy almost every I cheer structure and by the way that first tier that's about ninety five percent of the world's population mm-hmm and and the single sort of common factor with all of those is need. I think I'm right. Everybody else is wrong. And so the common pursuit of a discipline at first year stage is let me gather the evidence showing I'm right and then everybody describes me is wrong. That is said how how that works but at second here is almost always questions. Like how can everybody be right. Everybody's got some. I mean the human brain isn't capable of producing one hundred percent error. I wishing nobody's smart enough to be wrong all the time. So the views views people have they have to be true but partial. And that's the problem so the question is how to get rid of them is how to take that truth and fit it with all all the other troops. What kind of framework continued that? 'cause they all exist out there already existing together. So how'd you ask that a kind of question and those kinds of questions that most of the people in the intellectual dark with those kinds of questions they ask and and one of the things that will happen if you move in at least cognitively who've into second tier integrated systemic structures is that. You're you'll not only start looking for wholeness yourself but you'll you'll you'll also look around out there and try to see what's absent. There was being taken away that if it was there it would help with this homes and the thing. That's getting short change a particularly way by post. Modern extreme left political orientation is orange values themselves equal opportunity. Free Chris Speech Individuality those values are being denied by Green postmodernism. And that will drive. Live that categorical attack. On orange values when orange values is so clearly need to be included in an overall framework. Now we'll just drive second tier slightly nuts and so it just can look out there and see this massive attack on horns who what are you guys doing I mean you're using all of those rights for every single thing you say and then all you're saying that those rights are important. I mean it's just a huge contradiction and so most people that are attacking postmodernism including Jordan. Peterson will see it. As just a byproduct of what usually recall is a type of neo Marxist infiltration of the culture that Marxism tried originally by talking about class structure sure that failed miserable miserable ways during World War One. I mean poor. French people fought against poor German. People fought against can sport Italian. There wasn't a work of the world unite kind of thing going on so the Marxist went wealth held that and so starting the sixties people like Herbert Makusa Makusa. They started infiltrating culture with this notion of identity. Politics just identify with that. The problem there. That particular view is first of all. That's very neo Marxism to the extent that has any meaning at all. That's a fairly sophisticated waited conceptual notion and it's not likely the number of people that have postmodern values. I mean if you actually look at studies in the United States for example you have upwards of twenty twenty three percent of the population at Green postmodern stages of development so that's where those postmodern values are coming from and that's why that fairly significant number people have those values if they had those values 'cause neo-marxism it just seeped out of higher college education and it's seeped out into the culture until it bushwack twenty percent of the population now. It'd be a really neat trip to pull off and I just don't think most people run around say okay. What's leading edge notion coming out of college that I can identify my values with today? Ed Oh look. Here's the screen postmodern values. Let me identify with those. But it's asked the stage of development and people have to go through on their own overall development element that will explain it much much better and also just the structure of green actually look at the test results of all of the different researchers. That have studied that you really get to see values that represent is extreme grand far left political views. So you really do get this kind of gallow Tehran orientation whereas Orange is near talk. CRECY IT I believe in equal outcome it was it. It looks at all groups and if it sees emmy grew ahead of any other group then it maintains the group ahead is oppressing the other is just power and that's all it is and that's the only way it's interpreted whereas Orange has equal equal opportunity and those of course the values that Jordan stresses and and even people like Ben Shapiro stress those values again Dan because they're getting bushwack from postmodern green with its radical replaces individual justice with social justice this replaces equal opportunity with equal outcome. So that can be explained much better than some sort of Cryptic Neo Neo Marxist viewpoint slipping out and infecting housewives in Minneapolis and So so so what is happening is in my opinion and this is what I tempted to get across in our discussions visit. Is that as people grow and develop so as you. Each stage becomes a part of the higher stage. It's actually the whole of one. Stage becomes a part of the whole of the next stage. And it's very much. You're going from Adam's. Two molecules molecules cells cells to organisms. Each one of those out whole atoms. Become part whole molecules molecules in part of whole cells that just continues it right into human development and in our interior stages As well and so if we hadn't gotten I'm to the point where we had denied a lot of these Aotearoa realities. Were reducing everything to its exterior. interlocken interwoven both in material systems. We would be tracking these interior stages. But what happens is even as somebody moves from orange through green into second tier into disintegrated stages they're actually including the basic elements of orange angry in their own makeup in their own structure. Orange increasing have become part of a larger whole a second tier and so they're confusing green. Even if they're not consciously aware of that. And even if they consciously don't like that because what they likes wholeness and you certainly see that. In Jordan Peterson for example. I mean he's even though he's a clinical psychologist and his job for most of his adult life has included seeing clients as as a therapist and working their emotional problems and then he taught psychology. Harvard taught at University of Toronto. So you'd expect him to be a kind of scientific guy who's the guy who gives like fifty hours of lectures on the meaning genesis. I mean he really and he's he argues very careful. He knows that there's a waking conscious knows knows this growing of pets so he's using all of these components and that's what I see happening on the intellectual darker too by the way and I think that's why as they pointed out that this integral background as kind of become the language of the intellectual dark web so reluctant to see right. Now is some way for this kind of awareness to become more more widespread spread of because again the the down afford the evidence for overwhelm and more importantly it ruin is showing adult human beings as long as they can continue their own groves and expansion and development and their own higher potentials. These are being robbed from people right now because the actual evidence we have for them is just not being put out there and this is really horrifying. I mean I don't care if you look at the whole entity framework and then go. I don't believe any of it. That's fine but you should know that you do have these potentials. They are out there and there are staggering a number of extremely confident researchers that have the evidence to prove it. And so this is something you might. You Might WanNa look into what's A lot out of our audience really wanted to hear your commentary on Letterman Modernism and Honsi Friday night and their claim that they are post integral integral that they transcend and include integral. What do you think of that? Well I haven't seen any believable the presentation that they're actually transcending and including a integral because there are aspects of integral that I don't think they're touching very well and the aspects that they claim they're introducing are once you can find in types for example in integral theory so one of the One of the difficulties that that I've found with the whole integral oh framework and I've been working on this now for about fifty years. I'm I've been doing this for a while so I have a lot of experience with how how people react to it and and How to respond to it and one of relatively common ways is that Because so many of the aspects of Enti Theory or of Call Indigo Meta theory is is that can. Most people just don't know about these various areas and we sometimes referred them with. Thanks Mike Waking up growing up showing up also have sort of names for some of the areas like quadrants and levels and minds stays in touch because the people a lot of people just aren't aware of these other areas of their own being their own potential there on awareness. They can get very very excited by and then One of the relatively common things and we see this and some of the professional journals is they would Take Integral Meta theory. And they would include dude implicitly about ninety five percent of it and then they would add sorta five percent something different and then claimed did that five percent was the new integral theory in the old. When you didn't need it anymore and I've seen that truly dozens of times the NETA modern response is not new I've seen it many many times and I have yet to see a case where it's turned out to be actually the case you could well. Something called approach. Oh yeah that's the new that's the new integral As I say I keep adding Aspects to the inaugural framework a- wherever I find them So so my stints. For example they actually named the various types of frameworks. That I've put forth as Wilbur. One will refer to over thirty Wilbur Four Wilbur. We're five and so we've gotten up to forty five and I hope to get at least Wilbur. Six or seven from the one good thing I can say about. All of them is that all of them are including the true aspects of the previous one. So Wilbur fide five includes all the good stuff in Wilbur for mobile and So I think that's what's important about it and whatever Nam we end up using for entities frameworks. I honestly don't care about that. What I care about is getting the trues that were incorporated canning the those that are well no because those are the uh not the niable aspects of these areas these Meta theories these models bottles and those are exactly the things that are not getting as I've been saying they're just not getting much attention nowadays even though there's something as as important as ultimate truth and I mean we just don't hear about that kind of stuff and it's like really really have a culture that has no bloody idea what ultimate ultimate truth is really just want to have a bunch of relative Cher's one just doesn't sound that excited to tax? It sounds like a big in mistake. And something's 'cause what above So I don't again I don't I don't care what mainly ended up calling. These is as long as we end up actually including all of these truths and and getting the word out on those. There's definitely the The problem of people wanting to kind of stand out by just adding that five you know standing on the shoulder of giants thing want us add that tiny little bit to and rebranded so that they build their own personal brand. I didn't really see a whole lot of new content from that Yeah I mean I that I would be delighted delighted if if I was a giant on whose shoulders future she the humanity sap. That'd be fine with me This sort of definition. WGN Is evolution just keeps going forward and one one of the ways that integral defines each stage of evolution is that it transcends and includes its predecessor and that's just a stunning realization And it really makes enormous amount of sense about so much of what happens and so the whole idea. I mean we're doing it moment. To moment homer were including our previous moments in them are adding something new in every single moment as Alfred knows what to say. There's a bit of novelty that's added added to our preemption so we engage all of our pass but in every moment and this includes every individual thing that exists including electrons and Protons Johnson atoms they not only are to some degree caused by their pass then even if they are largely caused they still add a little little bit of novelty. They had a bit of newness to that equation. And that's what gets past forward. Is that little bit of novelty and it's causality galaxy. And then that becomes the next event that's apprehended transcended m included and we see that happening from the moment of the Big Bang all the way up today and when human beings I emerge Homo Sapiens SAPIENS. We now have skeletal remains. We used to run two hundred thousand years old out. Looks like it's about three hundred thousand years old of course our ancestors sisters Homo hobble. Listen Nice folks like that may be back a million years. Modern humans are three hundred thousand years old and what happened. When that at brain physiology emerged are presents a bodily structure emerge is we kept growing and developing just as all sentient life? The Aura said by going to these interior stages of growth and and so we did go from an arcade says into a magic phase and then from that into a mythic stage aged rational rational basis maternity we moved into post modern stages and now we we have a leading edge of humanity is moving into second tier integrative integral stages and so those people are the ones ones that are asking these kinds of questions and they don't just want an okay which view is right and all the others who wrong they want to know how to put them all together because they all fit together. They're supposed to be together. And when you do that you get an over wellman amount of goodness and truth and and so. That's what just so astonishing and I think that would just continue Going forward as well. So I'm glad Part of the shoulders of giants such if we can get that half the brand a new future thinkers members portal is alive develop your sovereignty and self knowledge with our in depth courses gaxister our weekly since making calls join the QNA's even as with past podcasts guests and much more become a future thinkers member today at future thinkers dot org slash members to stay up to date with new episodes subscribe indicator thinkers on your favorite platform and leave us a review or alike. It really helps out the show and I forget to share this episode on social media. One thing I've been noticing a lot lately is First of all. Are you familiar with. Daniel Smarter Burgers work in Jordan Hall in these kind of sell since maker types. I believe so. Yeah Okay so they talk a lot about this idea of cognitive sovereignty your your ability to look out in the world cognitive sovereignty yeah Perceiving the world sense making an agency and one thing I've noticed quite a lot Coming to the West to go to conferences and stuff is that people seem to be increasingly willing to outsource their sense making and sovereignty to external agents and to me it seems to be just kind of a phenomenon or result of the increasing complexity in the world and the fact that we have all of these tools on the Internet to be able to filter information in pick and choose what we want to pay attention to him become experts and but as as a result a lot of people are are choosing not to learn certain things like these these more general connecting things. I can ago theory and in in doing so they get stuck in this I I don't know they get stuck in a in a way of thinking that is just Seems to be pretty orange. Rational Listrik stick with having a lot of problems transcending so I mean I. I'm curious to know your thoughts about what to do about that. This this the problem of over filtering in not being willing to Learn through you're making well uh-huh there are couple of Of Different ways of looking at that and of all those areas that I mentioned About Integral Ones that we've talked about growing up in waking up and then I said we also see things opening up and showing up at cleaning up on mm-hmm and all of these are having a type of impact on what you're talking about but one of the major ways is if we look at just the growing growing up aspect of that terms just a developmental component of. What's happened with some of those? Is what you if you look at that. People that have really studied an individual's cognitive development which is essentially. What we're what we're talking about here? some the best ones of for example include a researcher named Michael Calm. And what common does and I'll abbreviate this just just a little bit But starting at Orange it's what he calls it a systemic worldview and because orange rationality can do is it really can think globally so it can start to think about universal principles. And that's why it does start to create. Modern Sciences is universal principles of physics and biology. There's there's not Hindu biology versus Christian biology. This just biology. That's how orange rational systemic point of view and then when you move up to Green Post Mon- because each of the stages transcend and include another way to talk about that as differentiate and integrate differentiate integrators also. What's going on? And you see this if you look at you know just like as I go starts out as a single cell that divides him before. Cells differentiates those divided into a and sixteen and thirty to sixty four and a sense happening. They start to integrate into different organ systems. So the differentiating integrating different shades of integrating. And we find that human developments. Well so what happens as you continue. He didn't move up. The stages is each higher. Stage can reflect on the previous stage so it can differentiate and some point. You have to integrate those differentiations Chasen's so what happens with grain postmodernism is it differentiates all those systems that orange created and when it does that it will create a what Commons called Meta system and so medicine differentiates and she's all the orange systems. But it can't yet integrate and so what is differentiating. All these things is to look at like western Western Scientific Truth and nuke. Oh wait a minute. You can't just say that's truth. All these other countries exists and they have true said are just are as important as his ours are so they end up supporting things like multicultural and diversity in Seoul all of which is fine but the point is at this station the development they can differentiate all those but they don't know how to integrate and so they they really often will end up in this sort of well. Oh you know what strictly is from his for me and then you have this lead to second tier and Dan. Commons like most of typical western developmental models has has includes about two or or so major stages in second tier and the terms users are not exactly the best use of the terms. But you'll get the point fairly quickly two so the first stage she calls the could start to integrate these differentiations. He calls paradigmatic so what he means by. I paradigm is simply an actual activity in actual knowledge quest. That can intergrate what green has different. You see can actually start got to produce whole integrated bodies of knowledge not a paradigm is I as as the term and the nephew. You have all these individual paradyne's than the next and highest stage. A second year is when it goes cross dramatic. And that's where are you. Start Looking at all the paradoxes and attempt to bring them all to get and again. That's about less than one percent of population but some uh of the very very bright folks who are talking about cognitive sovereignty are pushing into second tier the pushing into paradigmatic which is sovereign into itself or even cross paramedic which is solving in the sense that now is working with a completely unified reality and you can get a a type of genuine Saban teeth out of both teams when you don't don get a sovereignty of almost anything is at Green Madda differentiated cheated reality and that's the real core of what we have with post modernism. And so that's a lot of the problem is that most of the leading edge of today's bright people there are three or four percent of them a second. Choose but there's twenty twenty five percent at green and that's postmodernism. That's the core of postmodernism. And that's the core of what a lot of that type of well. I don't want to assert any thin kind of statement comes just in looking at developmental terms there. Other factors factors that play into that but just in developmental terms. That's one of the main things the tap and what we find the whole postmodernism in general. Is that it is a great in netter. Systemic multicultural diversity. Egalitarian notions taken into extremes. And so and they become contradictory at that point. So it's common for postmodernism internists. For example the claim that there is no objective truth. That's just a cultural construction and it doesn't actually exist S. A. Reality but what they're claiming of course is that they're statement but there is no objective truth that those are cultural constructions. They're claiming that is true and the cleanliness universally true and are claiming. It's true for all people in all places it all time. She can't get more universal truth than that but they of course deny there's in universal truth if they were really they really meant what they were saying. They wouldn't believe anything they were saying. They're all the claiming truth but they said there is no true. That's just the START I mean. Is that Kinda performed to self contradiction. That is extremely extremely common. I mean even if you look at it's a great postmodern recognize postmodern philosophers like Gary Da or Fukumoto or board Jew and so on through Co.. Actually we wrote a book called the archaeology of Knowledge. And that was because he had started out as structuralist who somebody who actually studies these structures structures of these different stages of development. That's one of the things that Pinochet for example may very famous. PJ by the way. Got It from from James Mark Baldwin. The Guy who discovered growing up when Baldwin stopped teaching at Harvard and retired he went to Paris and taught a Paris for and one of the several famous students that he had was twisted and John. PJ METRO PJ. Learn a about these kinds of things so you have these types of postmodern philosophers and what coat was doing. He had originally been some books. They looking at these different EPSTEINS. These different worldviews that several major stages European development had created. And so he he who's curious about how different cultures could have these different worldviews so he wrote this book the archaeology of knowledge and he said he literally true is at the end of that book when he realized that the whole book was a self contradiction because when he was doing was he was saying. These are the elements pecan to structure that produce these different worldviews. So he's claiming that these elements are the sane and all these different worlds and in other words and as the plane. The book was that every culture has a different worldview. And you can't buy Guinea thing. They have in common. They all have in common is his book if his book look is correct. so He's contradicting himself. He's saying there is no common element to those cultures. Accept Everything I'm saying. Everything in this book is common to all of these cultures features and that's why they had hoops. Dow was the beginning of the post modernist rapid self contradiction. And it's a real problem and it doesn't assent to up until you get into second tier and start to realize. Hey can actually integrate all of those different types of cultural values and it turns out you can because some of them have more depth and so them have less step some more inclusive. Some are less implem- sooner than others. And that's of scale of more inclusiveness H- APPS be the same scale that an individual in today's world though to the same stage as an individual will go through as they grow and develop so we are finding some very important common things show up and these are these are one of them What we do the real problem right now is we have a leading edge of culture? That's essentially not just crane and gala -Tarian and multiplicity but it's a broken green. It's an extreme great it takes its own Jews. Absolute typically and. That's a huge problem because that is the leading edge starting in Well in nineteen fifty nine. For example in the United States three percent of the population was green he go Karen multiplicity multi coach by Nineteen seventy-two shocked Dariga was most frequently quoted academic in America and the percent of the population green had reached about thirteen or fourteen percent on its way to around twenty percent and so post modernism had become again sort of the leading edge. If you were smart and bright and you were born in the sixties seventies and you wanted to go to the head of the class you developed a grain that was for you stop and that was how you looked at the world and and that was what was so important by the way it was right when that happened an academia itself became green basically this leading edge edge. That's when developmental studies. Those were all thrown out by the extreme green is green does recognize higher or lower in anything. Everything's absolutely equal. So if you have stages even more inclusiveness you're racist or sexist for transphobic or xenophobic or misogynist. Your Dad you morally bad person. And they don't distinguish between dominator hierarchies which are all the bad things they say about. Higher and growth hierarchies which go from electrons to Adams to molecules to cells to organisms and human beings. They go from stage to Stage two siege. Stay and growth. Those higher. The higher you are the growth hierarchy the more inclusive the less oppressive the less marginalizing. You are so even green values themselves. You're not bore with green values. You have to go through at least six stages of development they get to a point where you think. Green values are great. But they didn't do that they. Just put all hierarchies together through them all out as being gene you know Nazi And that's the famous. That's the most common charge that you will get if you mentioned any sort of hierarchies orgies go you're a fascist Neo Nazi here Hitler. It's like some believable. So they cost all of that out so even people going through academia at that point like a lot of people in the intellectual dark web or even like Jordan. Peterson is developmental. Growth Developmental Studies which is not part of the academic curricula. And that's where they started to get left left out of the picture and that's part of the problem and again that's just part of what broken drain as part of the problem. That is left us with so you know it. It seems so interesting to me that a proper integration of orange in the application of orange to look at green and and figure out the inconsistencies would sat that people on a track to second tier consciousness kind of naturally. Yeah well It part of the difficulty difficulty right now is that well let me put the other words one of the things that we can essentially anticipate in an optimistic way is what happens when ten percent of the population starts to reach second tier because what appears to happen if you look back historically and can we just been talking about growing up stages a lot during this. There are a lot of other elements that of course an integral approaching clues but growing up is one that really gets left out a lot and part of the difficulty with doing that is it is It's simply cuts off access us to these over all increasing and more inclusive aspects of our own awareness so even something like green values values. Even even if you're going to say okay I'm going to look at least look at equal outcome and see if there's some sort of major disparities occurring there now remember. Somebody like Jordan Peterson or a large number. The intellectual dark web doesn't want include equal equal outcome at all it just wouldn't equal opportunity and that's that's not a product of development. That's that's their own conscious decision. Because that they've they've looked around and seeing orange values so and they started embracing those aren't values us then that's one of the choices that they make. But here's how something like equal outcome can be important in around nineteen eighteen seventy. The percentage of college degrees in the United States that were gone by men by males was about sixty nine percent and the percentage of the degrees got by women was about thirty one percent and as a country we sort of looked at that and said that. Something's not right about the US by that time. We had laws against if you discriminate against the woman getting into college. That was against the law. I mean you could be fine even go to jail as you did something like that so we didn't have laws specifically Holding women down but still this. Something just wasn't working here. So what what was that. If you're we had equal opportunity every law we. He had guaranteed equal opportunity. But still only thirty. One percents as subs all right so we pay attention to the outcome and we decided did that was an important area that we wanted he attention to so we started craving classes that would encourage women to take up some of these kinds of studies and did other social change maneuvers to help get a larger percentage of women sure the college population by Twenty fifteen. The percentage of women get in college degrees had moved almost seventy percent and percent of college students. That were man about thirty percents. So will obviously we changed that dramatically and many people say well oops Ubin a little bit too far we still have equal opportunity. The now equal outcome is just getting really jerked around Beth. So now it's common to find that there are books. Titles like the war against boys the boy crisis etc and in many cases it does appear that went just a little bit too far helped women along just a little bit too much while also holding males air. So what you WANNA do. When you're here and you're consciously paying attention this is you wanNA balance equal opportunity with equal outcome and that's a tricky maneuver is equal opportunity is often just called freedom? Even though both of these are forms of equality equal opportunities often called freedom means you have the freedom to attempt to do anything that she went to an equal outcome is called equality so you have freedom and equality and I think Alice to Tocqueville Phil was one of the first to point out that human beings are born with differences. Then you can either have freedom or equality but you can't have both now in a sense that that's correct because if you have just complete freedom let's say To sign up for the National Basketball a national basketball league and there's actual equal opportunity For various reasons including leading the way they were raised or any number of factors. You can mention on some seventy to eighty percent of the people playing that are Dr Atkins Americans and there's almost no little short Jewish players playing basketball so but that's because there's complete freedom freedom the Jewish short little Jewish but hit can try if he wants he's got an equal opportunity he can try to get on the team and occasionally some of them will l. but if you're gonNA force the same number then you're going to have to cut equal opportunity and you're not gonNa let as many glad on so you can have freedom or you can have a quality but you can't have exactly built their contradictory in terms of what they're trying to do so so what you do WanNa do as as just the example of college degrees if you do want to pay attention to both of those because those are orange values and green bags I use their equal opportunity and equal outcome their freedom and their quality and both of these clearly are important and the real trick from second career is it. You want to Dallas those In a s fair away as as possibly can and the thing that I was mentioned just about what we can find historically on stages is that when the leading edge of a stage of whatever the stages at that point in history when it reaches about ten percent of the population then there tends to be a tipping point. A kind of flip tends to occur so so the western and Mike Lynch the percentage of people at Orange when that happened was only about ten percent of the population but when that happened then and that rational universal rational stage became the leading edge of our overall evolution and that mythic thicke ethnocentric previous stage. That was no longer leading. Edge is orange rations dangerous and so that's where we tend to replace mythic religion with rational science and developed world century values. We ended slavery. This was still only about ten percent of the population. What had happened? Is that when it does reach. Ten percent is value seems to permeate the culture at least people heard of them and become a little bit more open into so the reason that slavery was ended for example is that this world century slavery is bad level had had reached ten percent. And that's about it just feels guilty the culture so they were open the end slavery. We already saw that postmodernism. That hit when about can percent of the population hit grain. Now what we have worldwide. Because that's still the highest stage hit ten percent so worldwide. We do have this sort of postmodern multicultural set of values and because of that were given the intense polarization and in part this polar stations coming because everybody has their own truth and so it to fly apart and they're still first year here so when a person has their own truth and they're a different from somebody else they often by these two are are sort of at war with each other. It really does look like there's something that a power hierarchies everywhere and and this is horrible. So we've just gotten more and more polarized really and you know certainly in the United States some people are saying at this adds polarized as Ben since the civil war and the promises we look around culture at large we don't see many polarizing her anti polarize our unifying defying forces on the horizon. All we see is just more polarization and so we get ten percent of a population starts starts at what we call Keel Begin. The second cheer often called an integrated stage or even on stage because of sovereignty. That's going to be an get that tipping point. Those values are going sorta see to the culture. And we're going to have a counter sir balancing force to this horrid polarization and I think that's one of the most important then it's going to happen on these interiors carriers that we no longer track much of this one of the most important thing just going to happen in the future and that can happen as soon as a ten Dan to fifteen years from now because it really is a leap cataclysmic monumental leap of meaning perverse tear the second year. That's going to be something close to cultural singularity and that's going to happen at about the same time people think there might be something like a technological singularity it's not an actual singularity than a damn big technological superintendence so we're GonNa get this sort of massive shift. That's coming in anywhere from fifteen twenty of years and Dan. Dat looks like it's just on track to happen and we don't really have to do anything. It's simply headed this way and death in being very very interesting. It also need by the learn that as at least ten percent of the population incur second tier integrator integrator status that more and more individuals including academics would find integral models attract and not as many the people would find. My truth is true for me. Your truth is true for you can never get the two together. They're all incommensurable value systems. And all they can do is have our caring's between each other that world views on the start dying down and more integrated world Jews Or very likely start at just depends on what the super intelligent machines. So you'RE GONNA have to program them to correct as much as possible or will definitely trump all right. That was it for the second part of our interview with Ken. Wilber stay stay tuned for the next part where we talk about useful practices for waking up growing up cleaning up and showing up for life to find all the links and shown us from this episode. Go Oh to future thinkers dot org slash one hundred ten enter the future thinkers giveaway and winner brand new community members showed including in the courses. PRIVA- It calls and more as well as the supply of quality a complete cognitive upgrade for your brain to enter the contest simply go to future thinkers dot org slash giveaway and sign up for a mailing list to instantly get fifty page guide on how to adapt to the future. There are many ways to increase your chances of winning. Enter the competition today. The the brand new future thinkers members portal now live develop your sovereignty and self knowledge with our in depth forces get access to our weekly since making calls joined the QNA's with past podcasts and much more become a future thinkers member today at future thinkers dot org slash members to stay up to date with new episodes subscribed to future thinkers on your favorite platform and leave us a review or alike. 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Complexity, Collective Intelligence, and New Ways of Thinking with Bonnitta Roy

Venture Stories

1:59:03 hr | 1 year ago

Complexity, Collective Intelligence, and New Ways of Thinking with Bonnitta Roy

"Hey everybody it's Eric. Torbert co-founder Partner village global aid network driven venture firm and this is metro stories a podcast ask covering topics relating to tech business with world leading experts. Hey everybody welcome to another episode Adventure Stories Village Global. I'm here today with very special guests. Benita Roy Bonnie welcomes the PODCASTS. Thanks for having having me when people ask you to define yourself or when you think these might be two different questions when you think of your own identity in a way that you want to express yourself to others there's or or to yourself how do you how do you think about that. Who are you well. I have I have a lot of different kinds of public personas. I am kind of ECLECTIC lactic different things so you may I show up as the person who does workshop so horses for example. I teach a Master's course unconscious oranges studies. I'm do organizational consulting so if I had to kind of read all those into one definition condition I would say that I like to call myself an insight guide which is a kind of approach to teaching or coaching or training in which were trying to move from teaching knowledge and fax walks in explanations to having insights into the way we experienced or perceived the world even insights into the way we told ourselves stories or explain things to ourselves in the past because to me an insight guide means that you are basically giving giving people are people inside of sneak preview a whole entirely different way of experiencing the world so moving moving them for maybe a scientific materialist reductionist to a person who understands the role of the body intuition. Let's say so that would be someone all of a sudden having insight so I like to try to meet people where they're at in in the process of working in any context saying if I can help them move to where they as a person or organism wants to go you know everybody it seems to me everybody's kind of listing listing from where they are to what Kaufman my call the you know the adjacent potential weight so I notice that in myself that that's kind of been consistent th-through along period of my life if you were to describe yourself self-serving third percent or in the in the wikipedia article of yourself and and there was the sort of unique contributions are your unique insight portion. Would it be to help people individually and UDOFIA institutions have more insights or be more insight basis like. Do you think that's your you what you've contributed or wants to have contributed yeah so to go on I would. I'd like to contribute the this whole approach to pedagogy as insight training instead of how else you WanNa describe what we do but we're this comes from is. Is that a long time ago. I Read Zone Gab Sir and he explained how the current type of mind we have at certain has earned architecture and it emerged merged around three thousand years ago and so we have reasons to believe in God sir predicted this that new minds would evolve over time and I started doing research and looking at what are the types of mines or writings or propositions or sciences that seemed not ought to have the same architecture as the mental structure of consciousness so to have an insight around the limitations of the current. The structure of consciousness architectural reasoning really is profound because it enables us to ask questions in a new way to see the world in in a different way in I believe we need a move like that a big radical leap in insight to solve the problems that we don't seem to be failed to solve so that would be my contribution that have moved humanity from discovering more and more and more in the same way hey we've been looking at the world to actually shifting to asking new kinds of questions developing new kinds of sciences reinventing what it means to think think and reason entirely so that that that would become the radical and I wanna get into their ship but I I want you to give some historical context for it. WHOA WHY is the sort of the scientific worldview praised as more perhaps high status than the maybe the intuitive would ever insight driven world view point to David Hume sort of different fax values. Th Book Seminar of Motorcycle Maintenance gets into this in different ways. How do you use it okay so the key characteristic of the mental structured consciousness is that it it handles discrepancies and Cesar paradoxes are opposites in it makes them more complex synthetic proposition right so it's all has to do with the structure of logic which is like set theories on the larger term at the top includes all its members. It's just an a basic architecture of that emerged merged around the age of Plato and this kind of architecture thought has been very helpful gave us the modern project in the modern enlightenment it was the kind of thinking that Kant described but everyone goes through western schooling thinks like this now the problem with this kind of thinking is like all structures of they have their limitations and we have made things so complex of the whole process of dealing with discrepancies or paradoxes and then going to a next higher level complexity has created what is called overmining these very large hyper objects. We can't get we can't they're not actionable. Type objects objects we don't the complexity is growing faster than our ability to manipulate or navigate them so if you see this this this structure of consciousness inherently escalates complexity so have escalating everything right and so my mate my recent quest is how do we release the complexity of of these things. How do we get beneath some of this EPA stack architecture sure and actually begin again to solve problems and just to bring that down to a metaphor. It's like because I use this in organizations. It's it's it's when when Ptolemy explained his system of EPI cycles of the planets moving around the earth it has very good explanatory power because he finally could explai- explain why plants like mercury seemed to go backwards in the night sky at certain times right so this was a very complex kind of system that took a long time to work out but then compare Carr's comes along you know there's a fake story component comes along and says why don't we just switch our view to the Sun as the center of the solar system and now all all of a sudden the explanation becomes much more elegant is not reduced complexity. It didn't reduce the complexity of what was but being able to handle it or talk about it or reason with became much less complicated but say more elegantly complex and if you think about it at the time we didn't fly out to outer space to see that the sun was a center of the Solar System Right. We actually had to make up a virtual perspective. That wasn't the center of the Earth. We actually had to do something with our mind. Create a perspective that was virtual his Nolan could actually see this from outer space and then recreate the model of the star of the solar system from there so so it's this notion of Ken we create a new virtual perspective from which we can reason and what other what is the architecture of the perspective that were constantly lock in today. You could argue that being locked into is paradigm or this architecture. It is why we don't seem to make progress on our our problems and engineers. US crystalize what is the current architecture a it okay so does a couple of features. The key feature is again. When we deal with discrepancies we tend to then explain them from a higher level perspective. We get more complex right so the model hierarchical complexity are thinking it's more and more and more complex so explain climate problems. It's IT'S A. It's an enormously complex. The way we approach cry climate. I'm it now you know there's millions of simulations and feedback loops and trophic cascades of so and then the longer we study climate the more complex it gets. It's almost like the epidemic challenge of just naming. The thing is moving faster than our ability to do something about it and people can say well. That's you know you're going to say well. That's because climate is complex and I'm going to say yes. That's it's complex because of a certain architecture thought and you can see people moving in a different direction from what I call does taking discrepancies Nikiel larger synthetic complex perspective. It's called It's synthetic move. It's it synthesizes things into a larger kind of conglomerate and then works works on it from there so it's kind of hard to understand but it it really is that if you notice every time you can't solve a problem then you you push up the complexity of your orientation to it and we've been doing that for a long time. It served us well until we're now we're facing the kinds of problems were facing. seemed to not be addressed by that. Kind of reasoning process of Jurists Wyatt stop serving us well was it does oozes too much information we can only handle certain level of complexity and when the problems handled that but then it got was the characteristic of when it doesn't serve as well when it did serve as well okay yeah so a lot of people have been looking at Bob Keegan has talked about moldable called Inova heads where the task ask them in in modern societies growing faster than her cognitive complexity to me that why it's happening you can describe in two ways one the way I did in the sense that just our our mode of reasoning is inadequate to the task or you can say the actual title types of problems that we're dealing with now are so complex that moving them up into a synthetic that it kind of understanding is not adequate to to that so you give some examples maybe on climate and I know it's hard or may maybe in another field where releasing complexity maybe it's this movie and other would would be vast difference. I'm curious for paint a picture of how things would be different. If we released instead of reduced yeah. Let's back down a little bit and just show how we do this in other ways so this notion of how we dress things seems escalate slate complexity so we can look at for example disease in antibiotics right so we have a disease. I move antibiotics and then now we're on the arms race right between the bacteria or the the antibiotic we escalate the complexity. LEXI pesticides and health right so we want to grow good food. We start our mind. Does something the way it does Komo but oh pesticides spray the pesticides now. The insects start creating resilience in pesticides us. It's bigger and more powerful and then then all of a sudden. We're not healthy. which was the original reason why we created pesticides? You see how I'm saying everything that way. We approach something creates great. This I move that escalates complexity and in the middle of that all we do is keep doing more of that until the net outcome is antipathetic ascetical to the task we were trying to do in the first place financial system same way we have made so many com- more more complex financial instruments that you know every time the economy gets fried. Gile we make a more complex financial instrument and then we and then you know L. This is so you can see everywhere. It says it's the exact same thing in management management science instead of becoming Oh. Let's just be humanly Java. We get into systems thinking and thinking of strategizing human systems and then you know. I say to managers. Don't strategize your employees. They're smart to and say a deviant behavior and you. Have you know so everywhere you look. This is how we reason ourselves into action. It inherently escalates complexity so once you start to see this in your process philosopher like mere. You're interested in the mind you say well. What can I do with my mind where I don't make that I move like how is it if I just to spend that if every time I see the in in the sense you know it's very it's very Meta theoretical but I learned this for thirty three years. Iran AH LANDSCAPE DESIGN BUILD Company gene and for some reason I always knew like that like whether you're negotiating with a supplier or vendor or an employee there were certain moves that if you make that move you know pay me now or pay more later it would just build complexity into the system and so people would come in China these big software packages that supposedly control your costs in your job costing and this and that and and they looked right but they were so beyond the human scale beyond what was actually needed and so during my whole career I'm business which was quite successful. I always was very keen on don't make that I move that I move is just gonNA escalate. SCHOLA- complexity same thing in relationships. You know you know when if you if you're going to say something that's just GonNa make it worse. It's just GONNA ask Great. It and you'll make a bigger nightmare bigger not to clean out and it's like but there's something about our minds that moves automatically moves in that direction and so it's also now. I'm explaining it more like a felt sense toward action but it's all the same thing it's all a propensity to think the solutions up the ladder and complexity in part of it's also you know the mental structure consciousness but then you know this is how our schooling is an it. Cetera et Cetera so so there's this point at which someone like me says what if I don't do that then. How does the world appear to me Dan what is possible? Can I live in inbetween cognitive complexity direct act action. Let's say can I live in this other kind of space. That seems to be like a way of living with more emergent. Potential around urban used to give you example you finance industry your relationships you education. What does it look like to to not make that I move like an invasion. Do I shut up or what does it look like defendant. Do does not regulate like what what is it. What are some implications of what we would do differently well it. It's Dif- It looks different in different situations and relationships yeah you just I mean I. I Teach Mike Coaching course you just you do just stop but of course just keeping her mouth. Close doesn't stop all the you know the internal. Oh processing state to stop in witness that and I tell people to that. It's a very strange period because you don't know what else to put in. Its place but if you stop if you start by stopping you like halfway there already right so there's a lot of that in gardening it's the same way it's it's like you'll feel the need to destroy something mean. You're gardening. You want more life and then they'll be a weed and you'll feel feel the need to destroy something and then you can say while look at the anger that's coming up in in me about a weed will what is a we'd actually and then you start to deconstruct the way you're holding it and then. Why do I feel that way about it and pretty soon. You'll realize that in many many cases that we'd is growing there because it's doing something like permeating through the soil in a way that the tomato grows better I mean I've done on this huge experiment with my my vegetable garden in the back. It's like an acre now and the less I the more I understand the less I do. I've we've got tomatoes growing crazy. I've got pumpkins in acorn squash growing in the trees and it's all because of understanding more and doing less right to know that the system has the capacities were zone regeneration so it's not reducing complexity. It's really starting learning to understand. It's like having energy for free. You know I teach people in organizations when an employee employee is yelling at you. Don't try to resist that. Don't try to squelch that energy. It's actually energy for free. Ask Ask yourself. How can I take energy input it where I wanted to go. It's also the way you train stallions. You know there's so much energy so you cannot push it down you know or else you're just building a bigger bomb. It's like this is energy for freight. How can I take this input. Put it where I want to go. It's the same in in teaching children you know all across America with children get excited and they are curious. We we have them. They'll just sit down and be quiet. You know we just saw so those. That's that those are all insights that had all of a sudden. He's Oh my God. It's energy for free. You know there's so much energy in this employee. How can I make it useful for both of US instead of squelching at first when I scratch it they just get now to build a bigger bomb. Eventually it just escalates so once you start to really see this. I mean so you know. This is more kapadia entry. This is what I really wish. I could translate more into the world. It's this huge potential. Just this one the inside of releasing complexity so you're not saying it's not it's not like one hundred percent. Do the thing we're going to do or zero percent do the thing you're going to find way to channel this energy to somewhere more productive. Basically yes yes so the inside here is instead of getting involved in a fight or competition which will increase the complexity say what is arising reform me. It's energy for free and then how can I work with that. I mean even just making the switch in your own mind. Changes completely changes a relationship on the other side. They're like the person like what what my bosses and yelling at me. I like it's just a real kind of Taichi. Move you know to to not fight not fight in win. Constantly escalates the problem we seem to be in this trap both in our behavior and decisions and I would argue ultimately it's because the architecture of our of our reasoning is if one is have somewhat major beef with a systems thinkers or or complex this complex science seinfield or I'm curious where you over Labra differ from from that whole body worked and I see what you're talking about on an individual level but I'm curious to know what he's into the the question like hey the climate or Wall Street. Aren't these complex really complex problems and and how do you even even approach them. are things different skills yeah so good question. The first is yes. There is systems thinking that's on the top of the highest kind of complexity the louder really conflict complex complexity so I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in complexity science which in in complexity science it really if you if you're actually doing complexity science then it will leases complexity so for example in real complexity science caused there. There's an issue with causality. You can't make an if then proposition and complexity science so you're not going to be able to make these propositions that if that Hansen than the third term gets higher. That's an so untrue conflicts thinking. It's funny anything called complexity science because without if then propositions there's no hypotheses which means there's no experimental set out so it's hardly a science at all but people like. Dave snowed in in Jordan Hall. They're moving toward like J. Snowden how do you how do you navigate advocate conflicts systems. You sense you respond. You observe you. Observe respond sense. This is not complex thinking this czar small actions that advance you forward. You use intuitive sensing right. You don't make big plans. You don't have big blueprints uh-huh in complex systems. That's you know that is impossible so you will see that people that are addressing complex science or a science of emergence are already naturally using a different type of mine it naturally looking at what. I Call Nunez causality. It's everywhere nowhere at the same time so these kinds of questions these kinds of attempts to solve some of our problems is moving moving us already to a different kind of mind. That's not gonNA synthetic minds not a medicine synthetic mind signed there actually six different ways to go. Meta and some of these are moving to a deconstructed or simplicity model and so you here sure you know Jordan. Hall call his work deep code looking at like units of agency. You know this is different than in a big complex. Thinking doesn't come across with these big huge complex approaches. He's trying to say Lenny reset myself. Let me see what what is actually happening. What is a signal from noise. You know this notion of trying to get something elegant and work from there a very clear and kind of Chris Way. It's not reductive because it's doesn't say these are all parts in this one fits into this part. It's releasing complexity in my work. I talk about protocols protocols that code for emergent patterns so in climate for example. I would say you can't can't work at the level of the emergent pattern emerging patterns what well even that in climates kind of hard to to think about you have to work at the level of the the protocols that code for that right so so it may be for example on the protocol that codes for climate is co two so then you reduce co two well. That's not that complex while the choruses other things in the climate issue that that make that conflicts but in reality you know that's why I love configured his name. He used to work at Google. Either Tom Tom you know he did not all the numbers and he's like. We need to plant the trees you know so. This is a different type of mind. It's a very pragmatic realistic approach so he invested in a company company has smart drones that are better at shooting the R- the ceiling into an area that has more promised the ceiling will survive so that's kind of different mind now if you then say well. Why don't we just do things like that will then because other parts of the kind of issue are filled with people who are only trying to manufacture complexity for different reasons. Maybe they have their own agenda under maybe they'll be losers in in in the new this choice field or something like that and so that you'll see you see these moves already being made made in in our society today this this move to use our minds in kind of a different minds and we'll get into the Meta moves but but I assuming it is interesting. There's a sort of anytime of market. Failure comes up is once. I WANNA group says okay we need. We need something different. We need regulation. or this area needs to be not market in some way and then another the market says no no no actually. We just need better markets. We just need better design markets. It'd be similarly clearly as we're talking about like different kinds of science. You'd people can say oh no no. We just need better science. We just need you to Science Museum saying just better more. Yeah more and we're saying is more better and faster. Yes and we're saying no. No we need something different that also includes parts of of that and this is where it gets tricky because everybody likes to say I am Einstein said that you can't solve the problem Llama the level of the mind consciousness that created it right but people just think okay we have to go to the next level which is just more better bigger quicker yeah so it lean level. I just level up the same thing. He really needs met like a whole new mind. You know like like you have to get off that mind in tirelessly so there's a real there's a real pickle. They're used that easy you teach consciousness and so I guess the House the way you think about consciousness different from sort of the mainstream main consensus academic view of consciousness as it relates to to either the evolution of minor. Is this certain need for new kind of mine which will Adzic well. I think that that we are talking about about a new line not because we're so smart but because a new mind is actually being evolving in front of our very eyes or or maybe a couple of different new mines so it's not like we are teaching ourselves to have a new mind. We are just the emergent pattern of the new of a new mind. Does that make sense. I mean the new lines not coming out because someone someone invented it and then started teaching people. It's just a given our existential concern situations in the technologies we we have people like myself and they've started enjoyed. Her and people in chows Eisenstein also working in this field if you read his new book climate you know I forget what the title is but it's a new approach on climate and he's like there's a lot of traps in thinking that climate change is this is a big problem out there. We have to fight it. In throw resources added that he saying that whole mindset is why we have climate problems and so in order to solve them. We have to redress the mindset that we have no choice but to redress the mindset you know these as a kind of the pickles we are now. One of the problems between how directly coupled the economy is with climate problems is that we have the US US economy. We have to fire up the economy to climate change intervention in it's all kinds of crazy because the the rat snakes snake eating its own tail here. That's something that needs to be looked at. You know people will complain about the economy and the devastation Asian of environment all in one sentence and you you can't have those two things in the same sentence right it and that's why it escalates complexity because because you're dealing with the pseudo entangled system instead of just saying now that we have to decouple these two situations you. I can't say those two things in the same sentence and so away will release complexity looks there is a we have to be okay with not having economic growth that WANNA better by. I'm trying to get this. What are some of the which trade offs. Do we have to make re releasing complexity on sort of a macro scale. One thing we could say is how do we D- a couple in the economy from environmental devastation that stone hard question but it's not as complex as the Geo Politics Hicks of climate change. is we see it on social media today and then though I mean these the reasons why these questions are tough is is because the top part of them is not an intellectual or cognitive task or challenge. It's you get down amount to send your why don't I want to really decouple the economy from environmental destruction. 'cause you might see that at some deep level. You actually choose the next the destruction of the earth at some level. That's what you actually aren't using every day. Now you have to face that so so a lot of this work comes down to like really being brutally honest one of the reasons why we try to keep maintain false complexity. The city is we don't want to be really face. What is actually our our lived experience. What's actually living in us. So this is the this you see this. It's everywhere so that's where the teaching consciousness studies teaching transformative education because all of these questions teams are not just pseudo at the stomach complexity there actually the inability to address this problem at the closest denominator which is your own actual south and coming to terms with that and and what is that process like for it's painful and it's liberating. I happen to think that is liberating operating. Even if what you end up with is pretty shitty news. It's liberating to finally get to square one. You know when you're like with a partner at is is going on and then finally you just realize you know what it is is just We don't really want to be together anymore. I mean it's Shitty knows but once you get down to square one at least you give yourself permission to see that perspective because then sometimes with partners that's when they realized is they stay together forever because they actually have been giving themselves permission to try this perspective on in so that's what the process feels like like big what if I just allow the snails to eat my garden and watch how angry that makes me and then I think why are snails making me history you know or something like that. You realize there's so much foolishness business in your own intelligence like Jordan. Hall closet malware. I mean is just so foolish. We just running these foolish scripts cups and then hyper complexity buying them and I don't see that we are going to solve our problems unless we get down to this level of intimate detail not out there in the complex universe but with us you know who do we wanna be who are we. Who Do we WANNA become. These things are complex in the sense that they're so close to us that we can't really see them and we're afraid of asking these as questions but at the stem complex like you don't need a huge words and all the systems of fans up to understand understand it you just need to be mindful and have the learned some kind of awareness practice in some kind of self enquiry which of course are technologies that we have and people becoming more interested in them again because of their power this way is the biggest mistake cystic snickers make that they see the world is complicated instead of complex that determine it exactly. I mean basically to me. There's two key features. I think I rolled out eleven but there's the two basic features to save. Someone's a complexities thinker. A systems thinker is a lot of high systems thinkers. I you know they'll put out these like these models and they just have a lot of linear causality going everywhere. You know my friend says there's still linear causality except the lines are curved. You know this thing goes here in this in and they they believe that if you could had capacity's day the whole system you could make all those lines you can fill out all the lines right so that's a system single. They believe there is linear causality thirty in the system. It just may be too complicated defined it so that's one but the other one that has fascinates me is that system's thinker are inherently de animate part of the system so do you think ecological management we humans are. GonNa manage the forest so the forest is a de animated part of the system as if as if there's not already eddie a larger complex engagement between the person in the forest managers will say they'll go to systems thinking management different systems and is as if the manager occupies a position outside of the participation of the people he's GonNa manage adage hence he can make a system about them of them and move them around like an object so systems thinking inherently de animates part of the system is actually animate actually has agency and this is part of why you have it escalates complexity okay because when you de animate an agent who's also rolling. We get this arms race. I want to talk about other examples of what you think are malware that may be people in that may not you can understand that you'd be escalate complexity or Thanks for example. Maybe is is like utilitarianism Pharma from our being able to reduce all of our yes. We still the greatest good for the greatest number of people and the nation is that you can if one that you can figure after that that out into you you can act even directional a on premise yeah. That's a reduction you know we making this distinction between reducing and releasing complex that that reduces the complexity of the system You're basically bracketing L. agents in the system right. You're saying okay well we're going to we're going to pretend that the system is The members of the systems are those those agents who behave according to our theory so once I start that proposition then it's easy for me to prove that the members of the system behave according to theory ah I started by bracketing out the rest you know so that's the kind of malware that you see a lot very building a lot of theory building like the the classic Spinoza Ian Argument. Is you start by constraint. Lakewood saints reader right right. You're reading US nosy and argument you start by constraining the definitions so they fit the propositions that you propose and then you assistant medically constrain the trajectory of the argument till you get to the conclusion that you four the previously designed designed in it. It's like a decision tree. You use those up. This was before the Internet obviously and you'd go out into the woods identified trees when you had those those things would be like okay is the leaf star rated R. smooth right so saturated you go here. If it's moving go there. Okay okay so now I'm bracketed out all those choices and then is this or that and then eventually you're. You're led to the identification of the trait. That's what a good the nosy argument actually does it constrained by definition your options and it keeps doing that very subtly until you are forced to see what the philosophers so. That's kind of malware. It's used a lot in Tom legal process you know and of course the way they do that is by being very specific question in what the the the with the witness cannot say and you know. They can't give anecdotal evidence or anything so this is kind of an architecture. Marina is is kind of now. Let's let's do our best to hard to crystallize what I can hear my for being. What is the alternative or Aquitaine Picture. What will turn it over. There looks like it's US zero. It's a combination of sense saying Anna Anna combination of reducing I would reserve yeah so there's a lot of experiments people experimenting with this out there so alternative would be to switch to complexity science in the signs of emergency ads and this is all of these things. I'm going to suggest are not well formed in the human consciousness yet. People are still trying to work it out. You know like Stewart Kaufman's. Early work was in this direction trying to say like with auto catalytic south sets. You could have the emergence of life without some of these other systems properties that we seem to think it life needs or something so his early work is in this direction. Dave snowden work in cognitive edges in this direction. Who else can I say. There's a there's a really cool little book by David Chandler called until politics and he shows that there are currently three directions that we are going to to as a species into Ns societies in order to try to solve these problems that one's called mapping. He talks about mapping on instead of this medicine Mapping is the attempt to reach a causal depth so I would say that Daniel smarten Burger is a map or he's always trying. We get like generator functions. The Causal Depths of things and how complexity emerges from that gentler says the second one is sensing sensing now. That's a bad word I won't call tracking because in this he's talking about the use of Ai to look at patterns is that our correlation all not causal so the whole Internet of things and a lot of what we do in sensing surveillance sensing terrorist networks and stuff is that form and the third one is hacking hacking is more like what I'm talking about like to really use our our minds in a different way such that we get more clear direct impact for insight into a problem blown in in a way that releases the complexity so is a really good job of explaining these streak directions in exists relate a very closely related to a series on on this six different ways to go. Meta is answer. Can you unpack some of those ways or if some people get the discipline of course they can you read the series and the suit your entire podcast yes so we already look at the medicine static which creates rates are a bigger conglomeration then there's the Meta deconstructed this is for those of your audience that know how to meditate your deconstructing instructing the story from the feeling and the perception from the experience and can even deconstruct time and space outfits vits. That's a Meta deconstructed or Meta subtractive then there's something called the orthogonal move that I say a atom Robert at the side view which is interesting as a decidedly res- and that is to create a a new kind of way of looking looking at things and see if it's profitable so for example the move from Newtonian physics to Stein when he was thinking about Oh maybe gravity is just the change in an inertial frame of reference because it was a thought experiment. He had these like well. If I think about it that way is that possible science it was Whitehead did the same thing with speculative realism and processed loss of E. He thought well what if we don't look at objects objects is things but we look as events and at events in relations instead what would that be a profitable way of looking at things with something interesting be borne out of that and there's been a lot of influence in his suggestion in the sciences and philosophy from there so that's a minute. We're conditional called the orthogonal. You say let's make up a different way of a different theory. we don't know if it works but let's see if something something profitable will happen if we think within this new construction so like. I have in writing on something called complex potential attention states as a potential alternative to thinking in terms of complex adaptive systems you know the Darwinian in the Darwinian notion of adaptive dynamics is also contributes to escalation of complexity so I'm saying what if I could could suspend that very difficult because it's if you're any kind of systems think you're like we are every permeates everything that everything everything is adapting to everything else so what if I suspend that and I think of think of reality as if it's constantly aged changing shape so new potentials are advancing into the future rather than agents are adapting to each other on some kind of I love competition and then we can blow in in my article I borrowed from Whitehead in this notion of how unmanifested potentials angels in threshold events can shape potential stade's and actually be a dynamic force in in ever change then get us out of thinking. Everything is adapting competitively to everything else. It's a way to d train her ourselves from this escalating complexity which is only way we can think right now so that's called an orthogonal move. You suspend the way you think. Can you make up something new and say is this. Is this have any potential is it relevant can be used for a profitable in addressing this problem in a new way. It was called off thermal so those are three three of them in. Some of the others are a little a little collecting. I referenced simplicity exited. Deep Code is is part of Alexa in my notion of building codes. Were can't the level of protocols another level emergent patterns. These are aw experiments in new mines that are happening on a lot of it's you know in in your audience in your field. Let's let's give one more line to the the staunch. Scientists is listening in and said Hey. Hey you know I hear the Einstein quote but the world is determinate. You know we will we'll oh find better. Metrics find better ways of understanding. We always have and and we always will and you can't understand it will. Ai Cam Dan or something. How do we create with great systems that can wise that wrong as it will. Arise in incorrect is determine that with enough tools you be bored systems any machines you know we we can we can present it so it's neither wrong or incorrect incorrect. It just doesn't seem to be working. It just doesn't seem to be working so I'm not you know. I'm not an ideolog. I'm just saying that not yeah if that which really would have solved these things already if we already knew how to do it it would only be done I don't. I don't think there's anything lack doc of for lack of connection lack of resources that is stopping us. I think the hands I would say that it's the approach that's that's one. It's doesn't seem to be working until it seems to be working against us like this whole thing every time the US economy to to climate change intervention. You're making climate change worse. They were these these there's ways in which things are so couples. The tasks six were working on don't work. I mean we all know this about the markets and the financial institutions and there's only staunch scientists that you're describing. It's not the top scientists go to spiritual. Communities and people are always being on the scientists but the scientists know. I know that a that the frame enrich you ask a question is a big part of the science that you're going to be capable of. It's pretty it's pretty pretty common knowledge for top scientists. You know it's like at one point. We thought there was an ether A. E. G. R. I think it was because light had got to propagate through space. The way sound propagated on airway so there was this term the ether and then we didn't have the author and now there's dark energy and dark matter which is kind of like serve the function but the ether used to also not these ideas is is EPA stomach tools us on our we partner with at the stomach tools to learn something about what is real in all scientists know that a big part heart of the understanding explanation the lies on episode tool you use it is interesting. We seem to be a ray fork in the road where where a lot of certain that you know the value audience listening leaves the are just not doing what we're doing well enough and just yet looks at war vigor at a faster and it is a child. Eisenstein Everest reading his book or just read sacred and says eight now we need and there's a whole if yeah well in in different thinkers. We need a radical re shit like we know we can't keep doing this and I don't know those are talking to each other. I mean it. It seems that God is more momentum. Maybe the child is incorrect momentum as much as that Islam momentum to more status quo incumbency adviser something but it seems like a real fork in the road yeah. Do you think we don't know and I think there's a lot of experiments. Experiments going on. I mean like the the Silicon Valley crowd or also into cryptocurrencies and distributed autonomous organizations. These are all orthogonal melt away. We think of governance currency and markets you know they're they're radical new ideas of how to Organize Society Society right so these aren't these. Let's make crypto currency so the nation state can continue to do what it's doing. It's like the nation's. Today's broken you know wing eat something like platforms in which people can organize around primary primary identities around digital platforms so this is this is radical re invention of something that they was not working. You don't hear any anyway. Let's just have more senators more representative and more Supreme Court justices and vote five times a year that affects the problem and we're not there yet with with markets and you're right but there's a lot of experimenting going on with markets and a lot of this experimenting is not because people necessarily want to be good kind people that because almost everybody realizes in-stat and there's a lot of risk in it. It's really their experiments that resembles or Charles is the scientists ideas or Costa well. I think he's he's an example. He's an exemplar of his own ideas and there's a lot of there's that's interesting what type of area because the bay the area there's there's groups of people that I know yes they were for Silicon Valley and make their quotas a lot of them but they doing a lot of experiments in in Co Housing Housing and Co ownership and you know co working and trying to really get off you know as as Jordan Hall closet you know Move Way from game. Hey and try to practice some of the principles of game be so there's a lot of experimenting going on with the principles that the people are learning in that process are Ille- interesting to collate them so the row look at it is I think that I had this vision that there's a forest in the trees role burning you know so this is like existential risk in climate catastrophe and stuff but if you're in some of these communities where a lot of these experiments was new ways of thinking are happening. Is Kinda like you also see the Michael Risa underneath. The forest floor is actually actually starting to explode. You know so that's how I experienced things right now. It's like you know of course if all the trees completely burn down down the Micalizzi will also die but I think there's a lot going on that doesn't make social media. There isn't on the twitter feed that is going to make a natter. I think they're going to reach threshold thresh. You know there there's certain threshold level at which more and more people we'll be doing this more and more people gain confidence and then try to experiment themselves and I think a lot of that is actually happening is just kinda hidden insight you'd part of this is I answer. Technology crowd is issuing. You're saying the saying okay we understand so the the inherent defaults of justice science-based approach but when you talk about set saying I don't really understand sort of the the justification for that or where that leads to insights or so. Let's explain more sort of not the intuitive approach justification for and maybe that could segue way into a collective intelligence yeah so that's a very hard question to answer so oh. I've maybe I'll take a cognitive neuroscience approach to answer it so when you study cognitive neuroscience lot of this researchers is cool in years ago thirty years ago. I was doing cognitive neuroscience at UC Berkeley Asia and I called that first wave cognitive neuroscience and it created like a pickle giant so much cruelty laws I. It's happening now that if people WANNA in a revisit it they really should if you mean you kind of gave up on it but for example there is something like Mike the Amount of information your neo cortex your compensation -tations line can handle is like sixteen forty two bits of information a second second but your whole body Vegas nerve system in your of neural electrical chemical system now you've got by homes and the the millions of species of bacteria in your got are creating neuro chemicals response to environmental all this is something like eleven million bits a sec so the embodied organism is a much larger sensor information processing capacity than what is was used to be studied cognitive neuroscience and so the question is can we hack that now people people have been hacking and not knowing it like soap example. If you look at chess players they do a lot of they study a lot of moves and stuff but when they're at at the top of their game they're just looking and not thinking they're just looking and then in the next move right so this kind of decision making this kind of processing is happening in the lower embodied victim. Basil Ganglia system down now. This is where the solutions are being thought about and the the answers are being discovered. It's not a cognitive. The process happens and so we've been studying this for example. There's this Guy Bob Bob Klein and he's an amazing ragtime lime pianist and he's he's considered really good because rod time you have all these funny rhythms like you might have a you know one eight over five sixteenths or something in the right hands playing something else and they're not resonate so they studied his brain and they found out that he could run no one symphonies by parallel tracks of known symphonies simultaneously in his background processing such that any given moment you could say now the Hayden now the show pat even though he had started them at different times in so just by Q. This awareness would be served up in his consciousness and he'd know where that track was at at that given point in time now this is not happening. He's not humming tunes. He's doesn't have spreadsheets sheets in front of his mind. There's no energing processing. There's no auto internal talk. Annoys is happening salvin unconsciously and then you ask the unconscious serve up the answer to your mind so vase are deep intuitive processes that people people have known about for a long time. My interest is can we make them if we know about them. Can we make them more conscious. Can we work with this stuff more consciously in so when I was in college I remember I was in physics. Class and physics was it's hard for me because I hadn't really a good enough understanding of math. I did well in math but he's really understand math. When you get into quantum mechanics annexing you know a lot of the problems are but one day I was working on a really tough design and I fell asleep in the queue and I woke up and I was in. I realized I knew the answer so then I was like this is really cool. Why don't I just like study blue awhile and go home and go to sleep and I used to start calling them. My elves and I realized like there was neural processing sophisticated neuro processing happening whether I was paying attention or not and then I realized that the paying attention was energy inefficient so I start hacking this. You know this a long time ago. I started. We're getting interested in the processing power of the lower the lower instrument we also know that the primitive mind is more primitive live but more complex than the the new structures of mind. The primitive minds are parallel processing very very refined distinction making the mind that we we teach at school. The mind that we school is a clumsy course instrument dependent upon course categories. We know this to be true. We should change change our education and our whole way of thinking about it the volving human potential and then these new mines will come online and they will solve the problems we have so it's all there so I answered in in terms of neuroscience. We could answer other kind of embodied practices but yeah to me. It's just all lined up now. I wonder if in as soon as a decade to the entire field of economics it would be like discredited that assumes specific type type of mine very typical way of decision-making yeah. No I agree with you that they're you know in a tumbling rolling and had people here in collective insight practice try to think of what is an economy without a currency and you realize how much much stuck in eliminating paradigm you are because you might say something like well gift economy and then someone will say but then. When do I get it back. Oh I'm back actor transactional economy like but this is a great topic for trying to work on these Meta moves oust to get outside of this malware. A lot of people are trying to answer. Just this one question and you know you. You have to try and different things like you might I'd say well. Maybe we have to decouple economy from the notion of scale and then say well. That's not useful. Maybe we have to do this well. This has just pro Oh. I think that we knew we need new definition of what economy is in my work. The protocol for the economy is all aw dynamic systems tend to try. I'M GONNA use anthropomorphic to lower the thresholds for action and this is what I think in economy is a human system. It's that wedge lower thresholds for action so if you think of every single economic instrument ever made over the time there may enable to lower the action thresholds in the system right so once you get credit load as it got you know you get distribution of labor lows the actions racial. So what if we start from there what if we say an economy is the dynamic phase in a complex complex system that ten stored lowering the thresholds for action so that's kind of an interesting way to try to get a reboot on what is an economy and so I work with that as one of the protocols for a collective collective take action emerging culture the picture a little bit of what would be different or what might change people really understood collective intelligence sir. What do you want people to really understand about about that concepts of the importance of it and and why essential portrait the way I described the difference between the cereal processing of the brain in the parallel processing of the body and how powerful parallel processing is when we try to Lauren together right now we rely on cereal processing we we don't we can't let a lot of different perspectives in we have to kind of control our words and this that so it's not very imaginative negative and there's not a lot of novelty is it's very hard to inject novelty into the system so collective intelligence as I I understand that collective insight practice is learning how to engage each other's intelligence. They kind of parallel processing way so there's you can. Jack Allot more novelty in the system which hypothetically or or theoretically can boost you over some kind of threshold of meaning making or sense making that is limiting us in the way we ask our questions today. You know it reminds me of course workshops. I do some people you know. People's People's attitudes attitudes and emotions are tied into their posture so if you're always like you know like this thing we there's attack on this in so there's a chicken and egg problem the recurring emotion change your body or vice versa. It's it's it's it's entangled and so in the horse workshops shops we work on getting people horses respond very very discreetly to posture so we try to walk like a p call. If yours is is different and people people have trouble using their body in a new way you know it's like an excellent just say I don't. Oh Care what you do is do something different with your body and it turns out for some people. It's really hard the they're so habituated and I think our minds are more encrusted or equally encrusted you. It's just really hard for people to do something different with their minds and I think that guts incredibly limiting. It's like those those little tests where you have three matched X. and you have a box of matches and something and you you have to solve a problem people. I can't see that you can use the tax in a different way. Then you know I forgot how it goes. They can't literally can't see what's in front of them. in any new light and can you imagine if up and billion people could see what's in violence in a billion different new ways that has to be much more information possibility in front of us. It is interesting because you one way to release. Complexity is to just have one dictator. One message just sexualize everything anything not decentralize everything but you come up with new minds to be able to process internalizing and work with all immigration. I'm curious how we a little bit about how that relates to coherence in one rebel wisdom interview where you you talk about coherence as distinctly local phenomenon. Here's what you mean by local wise locality a win for coherence. Is that related to Dunbar so we'll use your example so it seems like one big centralized. Dictatorship is releasing complexity but it's very expensive very expensive and costly you can think of it as trying to get once. Everyone aligned in a single coherence durance so again. I'm going to cheat and just use the laws of physics. I don't really usually do this but it just makes it. You get your just take it as a metaphor really really complex emergent structures when they cohere. They're dissipated structure so they always create more entropy or more turbulent somewhere else so for example waving look at it is that we've had a condition of relative peace in the World War One and World War Two but the military budgets of the world has escalated in enormously because it's really expensive to cohere at that level. It seems like low coherence on many many many instances of local coherence in and out of sense making gene will could liberate a lot of energy energy for free and now I don't want to trivialize because I really believe there's a direct correlation relation between the amount of human energy. We can liberate even like emotional energy and energy affirmative action law that intimacy you know you You're not exhausted when you are in those kinds of states and I think that's directly tied there. How much energy we extract from the Earth because then you have less needs and less hangups in less compulsions unless addictions so these things are directly tied up local coherence free energy in the system happy people intimate relationships less extraction from the Earth Global Markets Gogo Cobra herons more expensive more extraction from era. They just they're all. It's all very quite simple. Well we just don't seem to be able to enact what we already know and maybe bring this a little bit to organizations so you've written a lot about or any consulting organizations in talked about how management has of all in how we need to do some of the work we've been talking about generally in the context of organizations in and more participatory relations look and if someone's is reading this they might say oh you know we tried this with try this forms and and they haven't worked yet. I guess what might you what color might you say some of the central the principles of with how you wish organizations would change and and what do you say to the person says that bad worked out yeah so. I think that what we need aide in organizational theory. Let's side also has to move in these same directions of complex dynamics damage complex open systems haughey's built on medicine stomach thinking you know there's there's little subsystems inside enlarges of systems inside the larger subsystems. That's that's medicine. Senate thinking so I my working organizations works on protocols emergent patterns so let's say trust trust is emerging pattern in the human system who tries to I do these exercises where the people put these little circles concentric circles in innermost circle is who you trust the most little further out you know I chest down the they don't make my inner circle and you can see that we're walking around with these kind of like concentric circles of trust. That's who we are there. Patterns turns that emerge from the center of our being and change over time rate so when we could say well what are the how are are these patterns of trust emerging in natural human systems so that's a whole different language in something. I call out precede. One of one of the things that I look at in my work is patterns of trust action threshold in power and Dan how they actually form complex feed loops. So what do I mean by complex feedback loops. It's just like the brain in the brain nerves nerves when when some neurons are excited they inhibit other neurons but the non of they inhibit might inhibit other neurons so an ineffective they they also excite other neurons and they also directly excite other neurons so is complex feed lubes inhibition and expectation that a non linear linear so certain certain patterns caused the reverse very complex subsystems so when we look at organizations we we want to expect it. There's complex feed loops inside the natural arising dynamics and to give you an example in in an organization as as trust rises then action specials fall. This is very intuitive just like when you trust your child more you let them do more right so in this is all human systems. This is the way we are but as trust rises is an action thresholds fall then small asymmetries in skill will become exaggerated right because at this this time in place action special foul. Maybe Susan was on vacation and the whole project got way ahead of her okay so trust rises actions social fall power a symmetry go up with power symmetry. Go Up trust false. She had this kind kind of like two cycle engine. Now all natural systems all human systems have a third term and that is to directly redress the power symmetry to rebuild the trust and actions Rachelle system so we can look at emergent culture from Justice report protocols and as I said before the Actions Russell is the economy economies due to trust is the role of governance. That's what's what governments do in redressing the power symmetry is the role of the welfare state so health education. you know all kinds of affirmative action training. This is awesome. Scienties Hab these three institutions because they are just small also of organizing human dynamics at institutional scale so we can look we can potentially get a group of people with a lot of expertise in areas sitting around and looking at emerging culture from these protocols of collective action action and and their robust actually you can find them in ecological science ecological resilience dynamic systems under different terms. This is a sense of so. I didn't just do a whole lot Chrissy. Did I just outline how people should behave I said at this is how people are so. How can we work at the level of protocols in micro-states in threshold events so that we can read boot the emergence of a new system that that you know the old systems health for a while but that avoid some of the known traps at where Humanity Hannity is now so that's what I call it working with the level of the protocols of the emergent patterns and that's real different than I'm in with the other other organizational sciences management systems have been doing out gets really been done before and so. Let's say I'm I'm the net flicks or twitter or much smaller startup and I'm I'm growing whereas some of the biggest changes I would then spend today reading all all your work doing a lengthy session with you. You'll see this. August will what would of what are some of the biggest changes. I could make it a pretty pretty immediately. good question you know have to project on what I think twitter's doing our net flicks certainly what we were talking talking about earlier. Avoid this escalating complexity but I think you know this is. This is the kind of thing that when the Agile Movement I started understand itself. Hope was making explicit. You know like small p. Small teams where people acting like humans are very efficient powerful awful sense making and problem solving fence now I I suspect that twitter and that flips already know some of that one of the problems that twitter and Netflix have though is no matter how agile it's agents use it as a broad term. They want to be there inside. The economy which is is not agile at all. That's a real something that we really have to be remind ourselves of that that some of the financial Salaam and governmental restraints constraints on businesses compels them to take a certain shape also specially once they get to be a certain size I don't know I don't I really don't own. It looks like inside so we're talking about what it's like to work inside their order enough that we can use any any any company you Google facebook any sort of. Would you say that your last line earlier was it's different from some of it hasn't been tried yet server from the way we operate today but yeah okay so. I get it now so for example there's a lot of complaints about how so a lot of companies are allergic to hire. Any kind of power in this says well. Your system's going to be dead. If you don't have power asymmetries asymmetry it doesn't come be doesn't come from people being bad or they. WanNa grab power. It's a systems property of dynamic systems the question given that you're going to have power cemeteries over time because you want lower action thresholds and you have a Lotta Trust. Then what are you gonNA. Do was the third term term. How are you GonNa Ridge Rasta right or given could be the opposite in a lot of Scandinavian not Scandinavian but a lot of European countries there. They have very high actions. Rituals people can't do anything the decision pants are huge. Why well you'll find that there's a lot of trust the well. There's a lot of proceeds trust or confidence in those because they're you know there's a lot of law but then you realize that it's actually a low. Oh trust environment. That's why they have to have all the regulations so you can say how can we create a high trust environment without the regular regulations so we can lower the the actions rushes. You know so any situation you're in. You're either like you know. Stuck up or down or in our country. All we do all we do is lower action specials with economic decisions. We don't reestablish dress and we never addressed powys injury. We have more Ramana logical in the human donate right. It's all we ever do is low action thresholds so this is a formula for either fragmentation or stagnation and so the question is how do we keep all these phases running and they're not in a be just even steven all the time. But how do we keep the engine out like a three seconds you now you gotta get all the cylinders. Are we going up and down and up and down so yes as I can see in our country one eroding trust and we're not redressing power symmetry and the reason we have so many power as symmetry is because since the eighties eighties or seven thousand nine hundred seventy six we've just load actions specials every single time we get stopped. We just lowered the action freshfields. We don't increase trust. We don't redress the power of entries so the different countries have different different emphasis insist on on with their amplifying in where they're doing well and what they're doing and what they're not doing very well. Here's how you reacted. There is the debate on twitter I was. I was witnessing a few weeks ago where it basically people were talking about. How financial capital is positive. Some you know I I make whereas social capital they thought was was either a negative some or less positive sum in the sense that attention his finite and they'd be sociable and says of status. I guess and your number one that means I'm not number one where one tried to come in redefined defined so comparable to me. Trust Trust is is positive. SOM- if we if we build better solutions systems earth made their values the practices. Would you think about sort of social capital. It's positive some naked how that relates to just as you just defining it or now if you're so I think that human systems are complex systems which means they have to have complex feed. Luke's so sometimes they positively correlated that sometimes they're negatively correlated. Just zags described the brain. If you try to build a system or modern human systems and they don't have complex stayed lobes than than you might as well throw away your your idea it has to be at least as complex as a human brain worm. A rat's brain works zing way so complex feed loops means under certain thresholds things amplify each other in certain specials they damp and each other in these thresholds meet this is why it's non linear because things are neither positively or just negatively correlated they are correlated in conflicts ways in which an and the pattern that emerges emerges from a set of microstates all states reaching some micro-states reaches a threshold event and he doesn't stay there because there's the other pumps are working also sell the neither of those are interesting propositions because they're not complex enough the dynamics of the state proposition not conference enough the would be a better way. You need to have a model of so you said financial capital as is positive song or negative some and I'm saying no finance markets are are have to be complex system such that at certain times they're positive psalms sometimes their negative songs sometimes there are intermediate songs in the and what pushes them toward one or the other is not just a single correlation because a conflict system has conflicts feed loose not just us pas amplifying in that dampening. You know that cybernetics cybernetics is this amplifies. They're still going to have to regulate so dampens this and then so so all these are single dynamics in a conflict system. The conflict speed loose means the same thing will sometimes amplify bovine sometimes dampen depending upon what else is in the system and that's what makes it non linear that and and and so if people are asking themselves a question then the answer they have is not interesting or adequate if it doesn't display blade this very complex dynamic. That's neither positively or negatively. Correlated is correlated. didn't the relationship so much more conflicts that topic's going into an excellent minutes or so when is a density when his pedagogy algae is game veep. Maybe we start with pedagogy. You're close loop here. In terms of you talked about. I would like to have more insight driven pedagogy. Gadji people who have the power to influence how schools are designed were listening to this right now. What are Racial Organisation question. What are some practical things that that you'd like to see radical things that you'd like to see different about the early schools are education. Susan uh-huh I can say a practical thing I actually working with the Montessori schools in DC on creating something we call sense Cola and what it is. It's using sense maker Technology with great now we're using cognitive edges since May and having the students silence learn sense making technology to see Meta patterns behind meaning making to see that story's not only the way media media in surveys usually survey is that you see polarization and you say majority minority which is also always station with sense making scan you see our stories and the stories that bridge you can always see that the human system bridges itself along certain meaning making are sense making patterns so the students are learning this and it's called a call out because then they're designing instruments survey Sergei other schools into survey citizen. They become like what's called citizen journalists within their own community so instead of using technology. You know I call it right now. Children downstream from the algorithms the algorithms are changing their way their brains worth so we're going to teach them how to create with technology such as that go and independently discover and explore on their world old in how they themselves absense maker and other people make sense and to do iterative design in that so that then when they do that first first scans and information pounds back then different patterns will provoke them to ask you questions and literally advance dance themselves into the future no from the inside out this way of working creates reflective capacity the and children it makes has questions about their own beliefs and systems we are using scans. Ask questions about so other awareness this other Meta cognitive skills so this is a pilot program it deserves to be well funded and expanded across the country on so your listeners are interested. we've got a first pile. All set got to go. It's a very exciting program. Working with Andrew cut the at the one school in this in as as in Maryland in Chevy Chase and we know from cognitive research that children have medicated skills earlier on in childhood than we thought before we basically teach that out of them and then has thirty four year olds. We tried to train them at these higher higher levels. We want to people people in the workplace to be collaborate right and we want to ask new kinds of questions and explore options right nick but all through schooling tell them there's one right answer and if you work on it with somebody it's called cheating. It doesn't make any sense. It's another one of these crazy rats eating its own tail like we set up thirty years of education so we obstruct got from the humane system and then we throw up our the hands and wonder why we don't have collaborative innovative economies. It doesn't make any sense I mean. The whole thing is literally insane so we're trying to do a smoke. You know we're trying to make us one small. Step that we hope can become a giant leap frogging kind. I mean I'm being kind of silly here but uh-huh Mugabe excited about this doesn't that's one little initiative. Is Other things going on joke that I don't know that I'm not aware of the littler. Listen a little bit about where we started the competition which is identity of you can talk about some of the malware. We have about how we think about identities. Some examples may be you know we've had this concept of sort of one shoe south and you just listened to your authentic self then outcrops air answer bids one USA. Maybe someone obviously he's got another. Example is how we as a culture think about the projection of sort of identity politics is her with problematic ripe meeting literally about some of that it'd be some way around identity external identity and whatnot underdeveloped yeah. It's now I can give you my thoughts on it. identity identity politics in identity itself also should we we should we should have a campaign to study it more and for example. I've modeled out a sense making gene scan on identity where people have to rate for example. is my race. How important is is my racial identity to me right and so so my racial identity would say white how important is that to me from extremely important portent to not important and then how what kind of impact does my racial identity heavy from extremely family advantage advantages extremely disadvantage we were. I would like to know what the correlation between people's perceived identity around categories and their perceived advantageous or disadvantages. I think we will be be shocked to see how those results fall so because I can't answer that question. I think that's a very the easy survey to do or scan and I think that that got some research or institution should do that very large scale across many different countries so that's number one and number two is that when we look at identity we can't look look at identity and I'm an I'm thinking now of your interview. It's time we can't look at identity without understanding the Meta psychology of it. which is how does identity what role does identity play in the human psyche once you understand that you see it's not like you start to understand that if you and I have different identities like what they were fighting over male female identity so you know whatever classic postmodern thing if an outsider could show us that the function of that psychological structure is is the same for both of us than we see? It's not a concept. That's important. It's the role. The psychological structure is playing and then you work work at it on that so now I see that actually were in acting same psychological lead the content which is just the opposite doesn't sell so that doesn't make you better or worse than were in the same spot with the difference you know you have the measles mumps sick. I so this is true for all these vulgarities all these psychological structures are they look like clashes. If you look at the content the actually the similar psychological dynamics if you look at the process assist dynamics from which they emerge in that's the level that we need to investigate them and so how how do we get past this last. Do you see your your optimistic that we don't even can for me it. It's it's just a sad kinda. Uh unfortunate use of energy and then again if you're working as I do students and I say that and and they're stuck doc in identity politics it doesn't take long to die sucker deconstruct what's actually happening with their actual needs are and if they're willing to to look at it so but you know to do that on a large scale without actual pedagogy pedagogy or teachers or coaches or spiritual friends so many teachers and leaders are earn involved in identity politics or involved in polarization. I mean you can't count on the leaders to help with that. They're they're you know we don't need to name this. They're they're. They're caught up in themselves the last thing about identity. I'm only legally familiar but I haven't gotten deep like Martin Buber. I Thou work are are you. Are you familiar enough to explain what the major contribution of of that is about. I'm going to expand it. You know so. I also WANNA do us in we working with pronouns is really is really a Coleridge to work through some of these things the I thou relationship is in acknowledgement that there's an eye on the other side of the equation you now as opposed as an it me most me you okay now this. This is the Kanta war so aback so let's just work with the pronouns so there's I in me. George Torbert Mead American pragmatist did it does a really good job at talking about this. The ME is who I am in four as an object for others and most people today all people who are sucked into identity pojects wchs they lead with their me who I am in the eyes of the other so the me is the object that arises in the eyes of the other and when you lead with your me you always trying to shape shift the me in response to the perceived reaction of the other it basically three objective is yours you as an object for others. The I is what is arising spontaneously initially in authentically in myself for example if I'm talking to you and as I'm talking to you. I'm got to another descript running. We can do this. The script is should I use just before I say a word I should. I use this word and I make sure that it's the word I WANNA use for so you because basically the is not speaking the I is strategizing on me that should enter public space right so so as opposed to just talking expressing comes up. That's leading with the I now identity politics. People don't have an eye. They lead me construct there in the world of objects for others psychologically. This is problematic. They also intr- project that to themselves such that they are an object for judgment for themselves which is why fashion in in instagram and the social media is so important. I'm even in their own perception of themselves so this is kind of a malware l. where loop that were him so just getting people back down to the I which is the sense of sovereignty that word is harder this so then you had buber's how I mean. This is how far we've come. We just need I I so buber are a good he's probably happy. He's not alive because now the I vow is leading with your eye and not making it out of the other that there's another I on the other side not an it for you to evaluate or judge or prejudge which is prejudice or even taking a snapshot. I mean we do a lot of these things in trivial ways but it's like at work where something's funny and then we give someone a nickname and then they're snapshot shot it in as dot kind of archetype you know that's treating the prisoners and an air right so can we make the dynamic neom presence thing of everybody's. I in real time this would be. We would enact very novel spontaneous psyches 'cause that's the healthy psyche he's so that's the vow and then there's us in we so a we so just like we're almost all niece in the eyes. Were almost all us in no ways so in us is also a static identity like US versus them. It's a category it is not a dynamic structure so US Americans or US white people were US up women. It's just the category whereas a way is a unit of agency so a sports team is a we. If you're on the field together other you're a we because you need all those players to do the sport right so as we as a unit agency and so Y- we're we are we right now because we are making this interview and so what we are is in vows in lease. He's and less exclusionary. ME's us in it but it is interesting because the serve ethos today or these expressed. Those is all about inclusion right yes but it's categorical inclusion. It's generalized allies knees categorial. US categorized S.'s. They're abstractions to not units agency or authentic. Dynamics folks processes the dead not alive basically right so you're into a different kind of more dynamic back. To what extent do you think it's important to be exclusive air exclusionary relative to how other people may be included in Klis. What is the world. I'm not into inclusivity because you can't have inclusively without exclusivity. I'm you know this and this this goes a long way to where I was just talking to the other day workshop here in how organization see themselves as somehow bounded founded from the society. You know early on you know. It's like a picnic is an organization that you go to picnic. You become a wing. We had a picnic. You don't exhume society to become a we at a picnic but organizations are so inclusive exclusive that when you work you know Tesla Tesla makes cars. We don't make cars you know and then the the organization becomes so exclusive to society exists in it starts to defend itself from the society exists in starts to externalize costs to the society exists existent as if it is bounded entity we can separate itself from society doesn't make any sense but that's the mental model we have right so we say organizations organizations exteriorise costs exteriorise to what something exterior you know. They shouldn't their own water. They don't Shit in someone else's water so this is the problem with these mental models of inclusivity exclusivity that their their their mouth. They don't makes sense as Asian care. exteriorise costs talk to Mars. Maybe you know like it doesn't make any sense but we say these the things we take for granted because we're so we have these terms something I named earlier than the medical structure of consciousness business category set set category thinking and you can't use that for complex systems because they're open and and they don't end the beginning anywhere so the whole when you really asked me about identity politics of the whole thing doesn't make sense to me. The whole thing name is now wear however the fact that we are running malware means we have psych real psychological structures because because real suffering in real paint so that level you know the has to be attended to but the conversation itself or the the the notion of it is just is just like you know it just like running some kind of really bad understanding of it's kind of like thinking that you make a tree plant grow by pulling on it. It's just doesn't make sense Let's say hi how do you think about the difference between Mao aware that we are going west awesome beer additives as part of evolution of something but our verse the power that is culturally created or a like a bar a bar. Times do most of them our Arizona ladder or her. How do you think about that. I think they're inter penetrating. You know so like I called tumbling over you know from one perspective ones inside the other and that we the distinction that is important is you know a childhood thinking is not now where is is not adequate to really really difficult. Go casks. Let's say but it's adequate to the context in the world that is living in now if you take child simplistic childhood thinking and you try to apply to domain that's the is much more challenging sophisticated then it can look like like now where so that's that's part of it but then there's kind of like true conditioning gets intentionally programs the benefit of the person who can program or intentionally this informing people because that gives you a competitive edited advantage. That's just like in Chrome Magnum air era just being the stronger bully so you can punch the other personnel you know so except it scales more so you can have hundreds of thousands of people misinformed for your benefit so I think there's when I talked about the mental structure structure consciousness. It's it's not in itself malware. It's just an adequate to where we're going as a species in the problems that matter most to us it needs to be upgraded and then there's different. Those are the other definitions of malware. What he says is someone says hey our instincts are critical design to help us survive and reproduce environment that sort of was a long time ago and there's a lot of overlap with how that is today but there's also some differences is like road rage doesn't make more sensor or you thirst for sugar at a there are some things that even on the basis of survival and reproduction don't make sense in it's as environment but then also they're you know that doesn't necessarily what keeps. US surviving and reproducing doesn't necessarily make us happy or fulfilled and we need to be mindful of where there are differences there. I mean besides the porn of that phrasing. The general idea is resonant. AIDS are far too reductive or or just inaccurate or at you. I think it's kind of simplistic thinking so you know there's been many in many studies for example that show we don't decide by doing rational analysis we do a lot of rational analysis to constantly options and stuff like that but when we finally decide it's it's more embodied mechanisms in the Mazia call that the strange order of things as he you know as a cognitive neuroscientist admit that we use are lower embodied evolve system to make the decisions to work out complexity and so thank God we still have those systems and I think part of our problem. Today is is that we have atrophied are evolved like perceptual system. You know somebody that works in a pig factory. That is industrial farming. You don't have to be a genius to know. It's not healthy. You know Y- you have your own few chickens. You don't have to put your eggs in the freezer in the refrigerator. The reason why like what eggs in the refrigerator it 'cause they're filthy in their affected and you don't have to be a genius to know this but we just literally don't see anymore. We just don't see it. We don see how sad people are. We don't see how lonely people are. We don't see how lonely we are. We literally do not perceive. The raw reality of our existence is moorland about why we don't are arriving cancer the answer. I don't know I was a workshop in the bay area and it was a little different for me because you know we did some elective practices which usually here means. You look like you're meditating their laptops. They were seamless with the type and I was like Oh that's interesting so then I can't remember remember we had a question and answering and someone said you know when I do this and this and this and this and that makes me depressed and then I feel off on that so so what it should I do and I said stock and there wasn't being facetious. It wasn't like stop eating. It was something like something they do on social media and I said stop in there looking at me and I'm like it's not anymore conflicts and that like what do you want me to do. Make It more complex. It's not complex than that is funny way. Ah Sort of inside joke myself that when I look at all the things that bring me misery over the years like ninety nine percent of them are things that I actively did the accident commission like by just stopped talking stopped doing biggs by way better and of course it will get to the point. Why can't I stop and I'm not saying it's easy but at least now you're asking a real question and you can get to a really answer in solve the problem double but you know. What's the temptation is all? Let's do more social media. Make change the algorithm do something regardless of the fact that it's even proven now. There's problems with it so you know I'm not trying to be facetious. I know it's not easy easy but the solutions are not by asking a question of what more do we need to think about it. It's why can't we stop. Nell already know no. We're not but I can't we stop and you're saying he's just as important as a stop is is redirect. Yes yes the stopping gives you open the space for you to explore alternatives and at first they don't come and so at first not only only are you kind of suffering because you're not filling your time the way you used to but you also don't have anything to put in its brace so that is is a little. That's the training wheel period. It's difficult work but once it doesn't take forever it it takes time it takes and then the human system comes back online. The organism will serve up alternatives for you. You're on your way so you just need to survive that part. Where you stopped he would still like any sell the the impulse to do it and nothing else comes online for you but it they do it does the the system is not broken so the union system and who is one simplistic instrumentation of A? May possibly like you're compelled to you'll be getting in twitter wars with people. Maybe Journal instead of they are you know Jason Likes Instagram. Maybe it's the light go take graffiti or go. Draws is this channel that energy and things that are less likely to create unsustainable status dynamics. Are I mean if if you're doing that in you're not unhappy with it but the question is how is it a rising being in you know. Why is it that you? WanNa stop. If you WANNA stop because it's an idea and your friends think have all stopped. That's not good either. It's like why what is it that the root of why you're asking yourself this or not and the other thing is is to be honest. You might be kind of frustrated that you're in twitter orders but if you're honest with yourself I actually don't WanNa stop. I just you know doc in. How do we sense into. Where are we actually feeling about twitter. Well then the course is feeling thing. This is what we've evolved to be able to feel what we're feeling but this is not something we're good at anymore. These are these lower capacities custody that if you've all that aren't don't know supposedly don't help us in modern day life. I want to close by. Maybe just closing on on serve serve our third seed the game be phenomenon happening and where users see yourself in relation to some of these fingers that we were talking about earlier. Are Your Hall. Danish MOCKINGBIRD CETERA Chelsea the for me it just sort of came in my radar very early. If I had this idea for sort of like US stock market for years and not stock market incentive like financial currency or does made up really just a way to track the popularity have ideas over time and see things that are emerging and I think that existed on building the game be would be an exciting idea. I would hold her This wash the space It's gaining a lot of steam. Here's how you use your Jordan spots because he said as soon as it becomes movements. I'm curious how you see. The when I think is interesting game. Somebody asked it in different rail how the handsome gain and that is gang is a hedge right the hedge against gay so it's like Taylor's concept of the May maybe your Black Swan event or something and says something event is it won't gain the won't flourish unless game a day starts to dismantle itself to certain level right. It's kind of like those calms those trees in these forests that burn. They never actually seed themselves. They can't compete until the forest burns down and then the then the seeds get a little chart art and then they all outperformed the others right so game is like that so people who are interested in it should not feel despair because it's a sleeper oversell. It's just the opposite we should feel enthusiastic because it is gaining some steam even against the odds even in the age of gain a so the other thing to think about it is the more we despair they are that civilization is going to call. APPS or the paradigm is GonNa. Collapse that means they've more promising outcome for game be so the the question is whether there's enough capacity when they made starts to crumble for real or for good for something game be to thrive so just understand it. It's a hedge against game. It's not just something on its own. It's it's kind of like a hedge against Bay man and I'm curious how you think about the role of of leaders in in something like a a game being that I'm also curious what Hap- game be right now. That page is is three hundred members. I wouldn't be surprised if you've now. It's like thirty thousand what what happens when something like that becomes order and then even those opposed today like a is something. You're going to get lost like. Is it GonNa be over when it happened. Like how do you think about that within a maximum of growth. That's interesting thirty thousand game veers. This probably thirty thousand Game Beers in the world that don't know themselves under under the name more. I think that you know game be has to operate again under different. Principles is probably right now. still it's capacity has to be done by emergency. We nobody knows what it is what we're doing so became thirty eighty thousand because somebody had a successful me more successful way to promote it. It would probably begin anymore and then you'd have to have a game see all these things he going. Underground like inception wants to get out in the one level of the dream. You have to go into deeper dream so once you Elliott and gain after the game see and you know you don't know how deep you have to co so there's a little bit. I think that's maybe where Jordan homage about once. It's a movement. It's dead but yeah. I think there's there's. There's a lot that is actually in the same dynamic Emmett that doesn't dull by the name of game be and it's not in that facebook page so anything that's a hedge against gay may is or emerging merging capacity that is a applicable to future. Let's not yet here is is part part of that and you can capture it at this point but configure than you think like not like you were saying suspecting totally is. Is there any sort of interesting disagreements or note where the I say difference of opinion. You have with Jordan Daniel so these different styles but I I think we're all in the is is just like taped snowden and I we worked together. we have different flavors but I think we're in the same domain so I would say that's true of Daniel Jordan and Zack and one of the things that I think is cool about our our if we are a domain or field or a coherent ecology you know there's is a big are we are coherent. Ecology is that we all see as really important to have a unique perspectives effectives have our unique hunches our own kind of sent on the path but we all I think understand that we hold a piece but it is not the whole so that keeps us running more parallel in maybe less intersections but here's the coolest thing the biggest reason why we know we might be a great here. Ecology is because of people like you somehow here. We are starting to show up in the same space and so I think audience itself knows more about what might be there than perhaps perhaps we do. We don't really have an outside in perspective on ourselves. I think that's a place to to wrap up. I guess today's been of needs a Roy Bonnie. Thank you so much for for coming. PODCASTS has been a great episode for listeners who want to go deeper encourage you to to read all of her writing. She is a also the judge the rise podcast she's honorable wisdom emerged and others of an end as Dallas well anywhere else. You'd like to think you know we've got Google. You can find me awesome. Thank you so much for this. This isn't thank you so much. There's a great great pleasure. If you're an early stage entrepreneur we'd love to hear from you. Please hit US up at village global dot SPEC- slash catalyst.

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FTP110: Q&A with John Vervaeke

Future Thinkers Podcast

2:00:52 hr | 1 year ago

FTP110: Q&A with John Vervaeke

"Hi everyone this is the first video in our live. QNA series and today. We're very grateful to have John Ridicule with us. In as many of you know we've been doing the weekly watch parties Watching and discussing his awesome lecture series called awakening from the meaning crisis. And you can find those on our youtube channel. We also did an interview with John few months back. And if you want to you watch that you can go to future thinkers dot org slash ninety eight and So if you don't know John. He's a lecturer at the University of Toronto. Oh and actually he just got tenure congrats. I'm now officially an associate professor associate professor now. And so he's He works in the departments of psychology cognitive science and Buddhists psychology and So today we'll be discussing some some of those subjects as well as his lecture series on the meaning crisis and today in this Q. and A. We are joined by several of our future thinkers members who have been participating in our weekly group's making calls Where we practice collective intelligence and if you want to find out more about how to become a member you can go to members that future thinkers dot org so without much further ado? Let's jump into the questions. Hey and welcome to future thinkers dot org podcast about the evolution technology society and consciousness. I'm Michael and if you need to the show and you WANNA get a list of our favorite books popular episodes and to rejoin our community. Go to future dot org slash start could i. I just say thank you for inviting me and It's a great pleasure to be here. You're as I've already mentioned. I have dipped in and watch some of these watch parties already and I'm very greatly impressed by the caliber of the discussion and deeply appreciative of this is what I most want people to be doing with this series getting together discussing most what I want to be happening around this series. Miracle go thank you. We were hoping at one point you would just surprise the group and jump into one of the random discussion advice. I actually considered it a couple times times. Five I've talked to people and they said you might. That might not be good idea. You might suddenly intimidate people and interrupt the flow of the conversation so I thought God of this format was optimal. Because people come forewarned they know what the situation is and it doesn't feel like I'm a intrusive being some sort of intrusive authoritarian presents so that was sort of what I decided. Well since we didn't get any hands going up David I'm just GONNA throw it to you as always do all right. Yeah and I actually wrote it out But I will start with somebody. My question relates to wisdom of crowds ouds versus the madness of crowds and particularly related to collective relevance realization. It's something that I've been long curious about baton wondering about how that works but after watching the lecture series you know I've been really came melting collective relevance realization in it occurs to me that detecting collective bullshit is is a much harder problem than detecting personal bullshit is a different level problem there and it's a really interesting and I noticed example that you and Jordan got some pretty strong comets. It's back on your youtube. Video about religion is not a religion around the technology. Piece that you're cooperating. And some curious from your perspective what are the top opportunities. -TUNITIES and challenges of developing collective Practice wisdom practice but ideologically and as a really great question I mean it. It's kind of the central question of my work right now Some of you may know. I'm working on a follow up series after socrates the per- The pursuit of wisdom through authentic dialogue. And this is the central question about How how do we do something? Analogous with collective intelligence that you saw me argued for in this series so argued for individual cognition that intelligence is necessary but in no way sufficient proportionality and the rationality each mode of rationality is necessary but insufficient for wisdom. And that we have to do this. Very systematic education pedagogical project in order to get to something like wisdom. And so I. I'm arguing where I'm exploring going to craft an argument that I think we can do something analogous with distributed cognition. So there's a lot of discussion of collective intelligence right now that makes sense. Because that's what we can directly access but I think collective intelligence is similarly in a very strong analogy insufficient we need collective rationality. We need collective wisdom Now I don't think those two things are also separate what I mean by that is I do not think The progression with an individual cognition nation from intelligence to wisdom is separate from the progression within distributed cognition From intelligence up to his. So what I've been trying to do And so you'll have to forgive me if this sounds exploratory. But that's where it's at right now. you know this. This is The the cognitive science of distributed cognition is there. It's new I'm exploring on reading it. I'm trying to get into it. I'm so I'm trying to get a handle on what what The cognitive mechanisms are then. What are the what are the mechanisms of the dynamical system that forms and not doing that? Theoretically I'm also doing it in participant observation join various adjoining circling practices at engaged in other collective intelligence practices. I'm doing this. Peter Lindbergh and reading extensively through the literature. So I'm doing both theoretically radically in participant observation. So I'm trying to get Well good problem formulation all of this so the way I am trained signed for the way I have formulated the problem when when I've been discussing with others there's a lot of enthusiasm for My partners and prime stock in Jordan Hall who with Zoom Chris Master Pietro. These people like doing them is just Just so centrally centrally important to the work. I'm doing I couldn't be doing it without them. Indispensable so the idea is that We need something like a Amanda Psycho Technology For telling us how to curate and coordinate The Ecology Allergy practices the college cycle technologies for individuals and groups And that's an idea that that's not my idea that's Jordan halls idea the my ideal it was too that there's some relationship between higher order wisdom and This Meta psycho technology. I'm working on a book. Chapter offer offer Meta Modern Anthology with Christopher Max Metro on all of this right now. Sorry this is going to be a long answer because this is a very important question so I asked for everybody's patience on this and so the way I formulated the problem is to look for the best Because this is how I I think we should always pursue the problem formulation. Look for the strongest analogy edgy. I can find within history for such a medicine technology and they conclusion. I've come to something that did this. That deeply coupled coupled together the individual cultivation of wisdom and the transformation of collective intelligence towards collective wisdom whereas the anxious extra practice of dialectic. Now the problem with the term dialectic is we most of us only here that with through Hegelian ears and we therefore we hear as Hegel presented it as I as a logical ultimately as a logical practice between propositions and that's not what Neil taunt WEAP- platonic and Neo Poh chronic dialect. It was So what you try. What I'm trying to I'm trying to do is get very clear on that project and the relationship between The project of self knowledge and winds of cultivation and the project of transforming dialogue into dialectic process called the logos I That's necessary to while I don't know if it's necessary but it's the best example that I could find for coming up with. How did the ancients the ancients do this because they they basically put in centuries and millennia into this project? And what's really odd for us is if you read through the source. Sourced dialectic is held up as the ultimate practice but we know very very liberal about it Because of this Hegelian overlay. What's what's happening is? There's a lot of research on this. Both historically around the socratic practice and how it developed and then there is a lot of cognitive science about distributed cognition industry of problem solving. And I'm trying to put those together and get some clear picture. And then if you'll forgive the self-referential pun on but it is intended. I wanted to put that into dialogue with all of these emerging practices around collect intelligence. So if I could take a I mean so. This is crude Sir David so Is a little bit tolerant What I want to basically do estate? You know I want to get a pedagogical program of cake. Something like empathy circling insight dialogue. which I just did the other night and then circling take people through the those pedagogical practices where they can get into this upbringing? Some the ideas around you know The by Peter Limburg's idea about the The anti debate take all of that. Get people trained in that with them into something like super circling. I said Stop Calls Circling two point. Oh and drop drop failures via indirect drop into it. What what you see in something like the platonic dialogue? Where what you've got right is that what's happening is it's not only a circling practice? That's that's generating distributed cognition dynamical system of distributed cognition a collective intelligence. That's being put in the service of a collective reflection selection on the deep topics such that people are are being guided through sort of multiple perspectives multiple arguments in a highly coordinated fashion and the whole system is reflecting on. Its off. Because you have to remember. It's not just an individual dialogue. It's a dialogue. Set into a college of Meta dialogues are also all talking to each other and that's exemplified in federal work so we have a great model there to give the guy and the idea is Now this is where it's going to have to be like empirical investigation as we're doing this. But that we can create something that will ratchet collective intelligence at least in to collect the rationality or at least perhaps possibly also into collective wisdom And so I I mean this is very much what you see being modeled through the ancient traditions and I think this is A good way. The only way I can think of myself. That doesn't mean it's the best or the ultimate I'm just saying where it is for me this is a good way of formulating the problem. Problem that you're asking and how to try. And a step-by-step both theoretically rich and an empirically diverse way. Try to answer that question. So that that's how I'm formulating it. That's I'm trying to answer it. I'm trying to be as philosophically and scientifically at as experienced responsible as I can both in the formulation and in the answer and I will present that basically in the next series what the problem from relation turns to look out sort of jelled cold and wet the results of both the philosophical reflection and the empirical investigation are So I can't tell you what that what the answer is going to be to come from that. So but what I can do is is telling you I'm committed to that problem formulation and to that. That project of scientific investigation theorizing to try and address it as deeply as I can very good You know the the thing that stands out there. I'm curious about your your thoughts about the comments about technologies specifically about some sense that the way in which we can use technology specifically a I correct advising patterns. I think it really sets a lot of people on the easily set on edge. It's like this is a dangerous way. We don't want to go down there and I agree this this whole idea. Specifically Is a high capable bullshit and capable of rattle -ality. Oh very much. So I mean I have a talk there on my channel Why why they? Creation of artificial general intelligence white requires the requires the cultivation of wisdom them on our part. Because we're making artificially intelligence and therefore accelerated intelligence. What we are? I argue. What most positive is going to happen? His as we make these systems more economists they ended. This is in fact what is happening. We're going to start using a lot of the folks that we find in our general intelligence eligible going to be highly recruited self organizing. It's going to have multiple machines that operate in multiple is going to be very in a lot of ways analogous to a lot of the functionality of the human right and that's already happening and it's happening to convict Russia which means I think. This is a possible implication to draw that as we make those those machines more and more intelligent we will find that they like us are falling. More and more prey but in an accelerated fashion ought to self deceptive self-destructive behavior and and that we should be very seriously talking about artificial rationality and artificial wisdom. Here's the problem. We have lots of models of general intelligence. We have asked. We don't have similar models in our culture of of of rationality and of course even more so of wisdom so so we have to pay a lot more attention to this now. I've been working on this project. I've been working with eager at Grossman and Nick Weck Straight and Justin Brienza Hardness Bond are dealt the Tronto wisdom pass forces. We tried to get all the scientists together. And we're going to release a paper on a consensus definition Benicia of wisdom and its cultivation. So I think we do need to. If we're going to be doing stuff that jordan-iraq talking but we need to varied surplus attention to not just making not just bringing artificial intelligence Trying to get articles for rationality perhaps some some aspects of artificial wisdom Into into that. Now here's the thing I would say to you David. I'm we have no choice in this matter. This technology is gonNA come eh going to interact with us and it's going to interact with our problems or you know we can't we can say that's horrifying and I don't dismiss that but it's not an option to say let's not do that that that's not GonNa Happen so I think If we get a better understand I understanding of rationally wisdom and get that Involved in in in in the project of artificial intelligence rationality wisdom. I think that's the best we can do with this inevitable progression. That's going to happen It's certainly will make these machines hopefully fully More sappy essentially morally responsible as entities And it will also mean that we might alleviate any potential suffering that they would have to undergo so that's also a concern Bringing it into this project the way Jordan was suggestion suggesting I think this is a new. We already have the machine. Learning that can do is sort of the pattern recognition And that's very valuable and I think part of what's also going to happen And this this over into the discussion of the religion that's not religion is one of the things that collective intelligence is going to hopefully collect rationality is going allow us to do is to emulate the learning and what I mean by that is right we will go through stages where we're compressing and we're taking all these perspectives and compressing Watson variant and then we also let it go out and vary to all the different participants we can emulate deep learning on collective intelligence in a powerful away. I think The deep learning that we can Participate in in collective intelligence I think that deep learning and the deep learning in the I will talk to each other very nicely. That's my hope I get the concern But avoidance is not an option and so I propose that we leaked these two projects together in an ordinary fashion. Because I think that's the best way of constraining straining at all around towards the best possible outcomes. That's my answer for that. I'll thank you. Heather had a question hyneman similar rain. You WanNa hear assured the one about. Yeah so I was wondering the one about participatory knowing. Yeah so Yeah I'm curious about If we have a sort of an idea or a theory about what is actually happening in the sense that when the shaman becomes the deer if you kill the deer the Shaman doesn't die. He's not physically the deer doing more than imagining. He's the dear. He's somehow somehow identifying as the deer and I'm curious about if we understand how that works. We I mean we do and we you don't hear scientists always GonNa say that that's that's kind of. That's kind of the dodger answer right what I mean by that. Is this notion of participatory knowing. It's fairly new at and not to be self promotional one of the people. That's really trying to articulate it and develop a not because I don't think other people have talked about it but they've largely Ashley left at a very implicit. Although I think as the last four episodes of the series I talk about people that I think are for showers especially heidegger Eddie grow. So let's do the Shamanov. Let's do the participatory knowing Let's let's try and use something analogous so let's think about how you know your body is this is ultimately about a embodiment and how you identify with your body now you're not logistically identical with your body But your but your identity is also not separable from how you identify with your body what I mean by that is you. Can you get like an artificial heart. You might lose your left arm and those are tragedies. I'm not trying to dismiss that but you wouldn't say well that's it. I don't exist anymore right. Your identity wraps it because your identity is inherently developmental. So what. I'm trying to get you to see if there's this interesting way in which you identify with your body and that's bound doc with how you know your body so there are people that have various syndromes like hard syndrome where they feel like they're it's not their own it's not their body They could move their body. They control their body. But they don't identify with their body so they lose that artillery relationship. Now let's let's pay attention to something and this is something that comes out in Godesberg embodying world the way you. If you'll allow me this verb you inhabit your body your habits of your body the way you know your body body by identifying with it right in this non logical way but nevertheless deeply profound way has a deep impact on on false on how you structure So let me give you one of toads examples. I hope it's it's you'll be okay because it's it's a philosophical example but it's very very clear so when you read Hume's epistemology David Hume hume takes up the role and a role is a way of assuming and identity and knowing something something by identifying with it in a certain wall so he takes up the role of the passive spectator in his epistemology. Like a person who is sitting absolutely still a merely early looking out at the world so if you read as epistemology participatory knowing that's behind the argumentation is one somebody who's inhabiting putting their body as a still spectator not moving around. And when when you do that if I if I were to do that to you and you couldn't move your body and move around in the environment they could but how fragmented and static your experience because it's so right away hume's ontological. The structure that he sees in the world is going to be fragmented which is why he can't write everything breaks down for humidity's fragmented events that have no connection to each other. There's no continuity there's no continuum is famously. Can't find the causal connection in reality now. I'm not trying to argue. Here about Hume's oncology. I'm trying trying to make a psychological point about the way you inhabit your body the way you identify with it as the particular self structuring. You're doing automatically automatically constrained and limits the ontological what you know of your world and how you can know your world. That's participatory knowing that the way in which you identify with yourself and know yourself. And it's deeply embodied way and how that limits the grammar summer of possibility for your on Polish so when the Shaman is knowing the deer I take it that it's not just the not only is he or she transforming respectable. Oh respectable knowing so she salience landscaping knows. What is the state of mind of deer? who had like you know what it's like to be drunk or you know what it's like to be sober? They sort of know what it's like to be deer right. I think it's also that they are having their body. In a certain way they write at habit this ender. Structuring the the oncology. That's available to them. So the world is disclosing itself in a way that constrains strains that the perspective will know it so yeah when they kill the deer they don't die but they they don't if you if you notice Sean. Examining the killing wing of the year brings with it a degree of psychological trauma that has to be properly raff with ritual. You don't just killed your utility during Ashton's right you have to pay. Hey respect and reverence for safety because right you're knowing of yourself and your knowing of the deer were bound together in the way of just strike particularly was was that helpful food. Yeah and it's It's helpful because I have my own idea of how it might work. And that's completely different France from it so I'll have a lot to think about so thank you okay. The key thing of Oh participatory knowing is the knowing of yourself which is when you know yourself. It's not just knowing to know yourself is to become a particular kind of self it is it is to functionally. He's structurally functionally assume a role right. So the knowing of yourself and the knowing of what the self is in relationship are inherently bounded up other coupled together gathered mutually informing and transform each other. And I'm trying to show you how this is the idea but like Marco Ponti and Heidegger and Herbert Dreyfuss and toads. Is that this is. This is the Primor Joe Level of knowing that makes all the other kinds of also. Because if you don't have that attune admit you're GonNa have you faced faced with what you see in Ube you the fragmentation the disconnection can't very much can I can i. I WanNa take a specific acidic example. That's kind of interesting. I was talking to somebody earlier today. Actually Alexander this morning And in one of the things with participatory knowing that really kind of came out to me I haven't had an experience as a child writing by two people at the same time but people have having the hands on the steering wheel and noticing that when we would go to turn there was there was a dissonance in a vibration. Like oh wait. We're fighting US and as as a kid. I was wondering we know. Now interpretation of propositions we know where. We're going participatory. We don't part of it you know and perspectively. We can see something to but it wasn't until I was an adult that could see. The perspective of confusion was around around the center of gravity. It has something like that. I don't actually think about it. It's a habit and toads makes great use of that he makes use of the fact for example that The the the because of the way your body is structured. You have a forward backward orientation. It's so big. Because of how you inhabit your body your perspective will knowing has this particular structure to it and also the up down down because of gravity and we. So they're the participatory knowing studying. All of these constraints vary very implicitly but also very very powerfully on how our perspective knowing needs to configure needs to configure it and then with the because if the perspective of knowing is out of saying in your example with the Participatory Reynard. What does perspective will knowing if you? It gives you the situational awareness so you can learn and apply your skill so the perspective will knowing Iraq your procedural knowing will start to misfire and then you proposition knowing is basically what the hell what the hell without trying so hard removed like what's going on But yeah so I think did that make sense of your. You are examples. That's how I I would analyze it. I was just saying the other part of it is noticing again back to the collective bottle the Wyatt can become Jordan. Paul talks about ruler mega ability to give somebody else the leeway to have their argument but in some way it really contrasts with our own internal at deep knowing structures. You know so we have some and that kind of distance. I mean it's a metaphorical it's an. It's not exactly participatory in the same way and yet there's something that makes sense saying it gives me kind of empathy for the reason why people so adamantly defend specific ideal. Oh sure I think that's very well said David. I think that's why that's why you need to situate something like the argumentative aspect of electic into these practices in which are practices Practice in into which you get a coordinated participatory Tori no In fact a lot of what's going on in circling then this is not meant to be too specific. This is a hard at important thing right but a lot of them going on circling is getting. I think people into something like a collective flow so that they can have a shared nexus of participatory knowing. And then that that that that that affords awards a fluidity of respectable knowing so that you could very readily and what happens and this is the this is the interesting phenomenology And this is where it starts to lead over again if the topic of religion. It's our religion is you get like this third factor You get people start to end. I will report. Take get this sense of something above and beyond the individual people. That's their that's why call it the logos. That's the logos right there. There's some there you have to be you really careful here. And the ad people very secular people fall into very religious language which automatically when they start to describe this. We have to proceed very cautiously but also not dismissively because the reason why they're falling into this and it goes back to perhaps the older meaning of things like Teen Spirit right where that idea where you get this collective flow stage Ed's doing something very powerful and what I what I think it's doing so right and I've got a bit of an idea of you'll allow me to talk about this for part of what I think it's doing is it's creating this higher. Order shared participatory knowing an upgrade of rapid perspective. Hobble of fluidity. Here's what here's what did now. This is an hypothesis. Please take it as that that I'm exploring so when people are in this I've experienced asked me Other participants they get an experience I have to be careful what I'm disclosing or not disclosing gift. People report something that is similar to reports of when people are taking things like silent silent. So what you get is you get this super-stallions the person is glowing right. There's a sense of a doubt yes there and so what. I think that is a hypothesis but I think is going as the following so silent silent. We know what's happening areas of the brain that typically talk give each other are talking to each other a novel patterns it. What's trying to emerge is a new dynamical system out of that new communication? I think what's happening in things like circling you're getting novel patterns of Interpersonal Communication. And then they're getting internalized into the brain. It's something like novel patterns of Interest Repo Communication. Gatien that are then right right amp or them beating back to an amplifying. The novel patterns available in the and then you get this. Almost like an antibiotic August Cycle Happening in and I think that's very very important like as a way of prep intially. If if it's right lock linking the phenomenology of collective intelligence to the functionality. In some way and so I think what you see happening in there is is again the way your knowing yourself by how you're literally inhabiting your mind is being deeply coordinated by how this collective if things is coming to inhabit the space between you all. It's a D.. Kind of new participatory. Now are very excited about that because there's already some really terrifying a science around this I I've mentioned that a couple of the interviews. I have with people so they have just recently and this this is terrifying but to happen. Because there's all this conjecture basically said since hutchins walk on the wild cognition but the power of distributed cognition of research where they actually physically linked rat brains together and what are they able to show therefore too strict quantitative laboratory setting is that the collective formed Rains as computational power it can solve probably the individual rats can solve now that's really really terrifying But it's also good hard science that no no this is a real thing is a real. Oh thank you and you probably know that. They've done some preliminary stuff with some of the neuro chips with Human Beers. That's what I mean. This is coming. This is coming. And it's coming on as very rapidly rapidly. And that's why doing this as we have to do this as much as we can. And we have to do with is open that Cyborg is going to happen at collective Cyborg to not just individual side Oregon's very Maher Mar terrifying. Well that's that's definitely going to come and what's happening already The this is hard trying to turn artificial intelligence into artificial rationality is people are trying are starting to explorer distributed cognition amongst I robots to bring social cognition into and get it integrated with the individual cognition individual Watts And so they're already starting. They have some very interesting and powerful results about that so like I say this is. This is another reason why turning to the ancient model of dialectic to try and give us something something ought to know you know some some wet. Well vetted enroll reflected upon understanding Of a medicine technology we have something to bring into The dialogue with all this all these emerging practices and communities and technology. I think this actually relates to Alex's question about the Psycho technologies that are cornerstone for individuals and also collectives in the future. Alex so John Nice to meet you likewise the question that I posed There have been a lot of kickoffs For this question is like what what does end. Ecology of practices actresses look like for the individual to name what the practices are for the individual. And also for the connective intelligence collective percents making and then you know you know what those common cornerstones that makeup system of psychic technologies that make up the the fundamental building blocks and then obviously for the individual they a they tended an unspecific foyer example. Or how you nine and how you think. They're a little bit different for individuals but collectively what others and the stretches so the way. I would try the answer that Alex is for the individuals. I try to talk about types of practices as opposed to specific words Ed's though what what I do is I try to do this. Reverse engineering fashion. I try to say we need the if this these are the components of of of of intelligence. And this is how they need to be coordinated in rationality and how they need to be even further coordinated and wisdom. We could specify the at least practices in terms of what functions we need addressed. Does that make sense what I'm trying to do right so I think We definitely need practices. We need a practice that protects our influential processing from our tendon from the inside processing dressing in leaping into conclusions. And I think we need something analogous to active open-mindedness but there are many things that are analogous active open-mindedness cvt is analogous doctoral. Might I see a lot of what's happening in the story practices as a way of cultivating something deeply analogous to active open-mindedness in many of the exercise. So something that basically says okay. I need to. I need to protect my influential processing from for the part of me that wants to leap to conclusions collusion's and do all of that and so that's what active opened. maxine needs something like that but as I've tried to indicate there's a whole family of things that do that now now there they have family resemblance to each other but they're not identical and the end they bring with them different contexts. So active open-mindedness is very much. Something you sort of just can take up on your own one of the things. I do to cultivate it is I I every day. I read about a cognitive bias and then I had throughout the day I try to notice that and then I journal at the end of the day. That's a way of doing GEICO. But some people do they take a stoic practice and what the stoicism gives them Is it gives them a community and a history of people that they can read they can read markets are they can the F. Akitas right at stuff like that. Some people like it more cvt and what they can do is they. Can they can do that. In conjunction with a therapeutic practice. They're engaged so although these are similar. They're they're they're they're also have important differences that might be better suited to where the individuals act. So I think you need something like that. I think you also need something. Well I think it's a con. It's already a family practices. You need something from the mindfulness practice this because what you need is you need something that will shut off the influential machinery. So the insight machinery can be properly developed engaged And as you know I argue that I think you should always have both a meditative and contemplative mindfulness practice because that's what that's yet scaling down down on the scaling up Because that's what's going to best optimize. I think four mindfulness I think you do you need you. Need practices assist for your perspective learning And again this is a very very considerably people Leo and I will for our on. I talked about this. It says internalizing this age. You need to practice learning about and adopting the role and salience landscape of your particular escape yours particularly. We already do this in sports. Coaching you. You learn to take on The perspective of the coach until you internalize it and then you no longer need to coach you do it in Dojo you internalize censor until you don't or the Sif you're too you don't need Until you don't need that person anymore when you have your inner teacher feature so you I don't want to tell people whose sage or stages I would recommend multiple stages ages are. They should adopt I don't think you should just choose randomly I think you should deeply read and find somebody that has this sweet spot of you can sense identification with them but you can also said that they are capable of challenging you in a profound way So again that's going to vary widely amongst people. But I think it's a very important thing to do because this is this is primarily. It's going to train your flexibility perspective knowing. I think it's GonNa enhance your Meta cognition. It's going to get you out of EGOCENTRISM. I think he that also individually need to take up practices and this was much more tenuous because is this is something again. That's more towards the cutting edge of the work in the the the the series. You need to take practices of practicing. This implausibility is way but hand saying Your capacity for understanding I talked about this in I forget which episode I talk about. You need to practice seeing getting independent lines of thought and expand on experienced depending on what kind of knowing you're training getting getting them to converge to something and then see getting back to sing having them burying this is also a kind of deep learning So at the level of proposition theorising for example. I do that In this series. I tried to exemplify I try to show. How many convergent lines COM relevance realization position? And then how relevance realization can be applied to many topics but you also do something similar in the martial arts you learn all these different skills and then you try you learn sort sort of an orientation astaire's right that they all converge on that sort of multi apt for application. You have to cultivate A A lot of theoretical proposition all procedural and also respectable plausibility. Practice doing that so than you know. There's there's different practices again For doing that I see how people could could vary around that Then I I do think that what you need to do is at at the distributed cognition level. I do think you need a Meta cycle technology. And it's it's going to be. I'M GOING TO ARGUE I. I'm already crafting argue it has to be analogous to photonic neo platonic dialectic. It has to be something that integrates the set of practices like circling in a pedagogical program. Sort of you may be empathy circling the anti debate. Do insight dialoguing that you take that into sickly you get this you get this coordination love the third factor participatory in perspective annoying. And then you learn how to drop something something like Socratic the socratic incas discussion and debate with always respectful of in reverence to that so as always finally asked Afia never find the always the cultivation of wisdom never the pursuit of victory. And so you get people to so that they can and I need. Dissident deeply actress central sense they can identify with the functionality of the opponent processing with the end distributed competition as opposed to adversarial adversarial debating And so I think you need something like that in addition because this is all very head bang you need a good movement practice you need a movement practice that is because it's a movement practices not going to do much for the proposition although it will teach you a bit about what inner coaching feels like. You want something so for me. It's actually twad right in various cheek on you. The things that are really training in enhanced range of flexibility for your procedural but especially a perspective on your participatory. Now because you need a movement practice is to engage the Sara bellum frontal cortex loops because that's the best way to get the acceptation running now again. A lot of variation in the movement practices people are not saying everybody should do touch each one or or any of the things I do. I would recommend getting a a bunch of family of movement practices and get them talk to each other so so it's kind of a nested structure So I talk about types of that and I tried to tell you what I think the what what am ecology of practices looks like for the individual and then what the Meta cycle technology is that's going to bring in how we generate jury coordinate and that individuals technology's always sort of it. Is there a graph of their that that shows the entire ecology practices that you've been investigating talking talking about like something where people can visually look at this. That's a really good young. That's A. That's a really good idea I I think Chris and I might do something like that for the chapter writing. I'm not sure of but doing that. That is yeah but I I love to volunteer. Yeah yeah that'd be great and I'd be happy to work with you Mike on that so what I'll do right now is making a commitment to generating that with you if you want to work with me on. It's great very much. The brand new future thinkers members portal is now live develop your sovereignty and self knowledge with our index forces. Get access assist to our weekly since making calls join the QNA's with past podcast guests and much more. Become a future thinkers member today at future thinkers dot org slash members. Stay up to date with new episodes subscribe to future thinkers on your favorite platform and leave us a review or a like it really helps out the show and I forget to share this episode on social media. John was Started working in my own was sort of compiling sort of a tool. You both of what all the directives could potentially be an any framework that I'm familiar with. This is. Ken Will Bas a wake-up grab shop cleanup and placing the different practices into that structure. But I think finding almost imagine a little but like near waking up from the Matrix and then he's sitting there with morpheus like what programs do Donde and for this territory. Roy Writer occurs as you know we we need to have like certain skills enabled and with it we like some of us are going to go and propose new. These structures that have fee can work and be adopted an enlarged so we have to kind of get them going in Petrie dish. Where Eh we've got these little ecosystems running so that's what I tried to answer your question in detail because I think you're correct? I think that's a central thing Yeah very much getting that going. I would also recommend. This is also something that I'm finding useful bowl Recommend looking at existing religions because they are large Colleges practices that coordinate individual district cognition and they generally have some sort of Meta second technology. That's basically Dialectical in nature often for processing canal I just pissed off Jonathan Patio and Vanderkaay saying that But I do think the issue about making this headed Gotcha Glee and socially scalable is also something that needs to be constant kept in mind so looking to You know the Existing religions in diversity. By the way I think is also an aide a not are not recommending you any slavish attempt to copy but by paying very the attention Attention to things that did have good longevity and vitality to them that I think is also helpful. I mean you you can see that. Many of the religions are in fact inherently realistic in their origin. Like you get you get Zan by integrating Taoism With a form of Mahayana Buddhism right in China. And then you get that taken over into Japan where interacts with Chamonix Religion region Shinto or into with the schmuck bon religion and again becomes Rhianna into bat becomes then right in and and so you can see that in the history of Christianity. You've got you've got this This Jewish thing and then that's not meant to be suspicious. This Jewish tradition. That's better work. And then you see integrating with all these neil platonic practices and elements of stoicism. So you see that. The religions themselves are are doing kind of what I'm recommending in paying attention to their historical origins and their functional organizations. I think would also be helpful. I'm I'm curious I'd like to kind of extend a little bit. I'm imagining something. If you're familiar with John Jamie wheel and the flood genome project and kind of the work that they've done employees. It's a popularization of that area. All aspects of it and the idea of a flow Dojo. I'm also interested in kind of open. Sourced Risk Network of wisdom doges. That happens practices now. The thing that comes in the concern about that is a lot of people say. Be careful of the cafeteria style. Wisdom practices picking and so the but. It's necessary to some extent to be able to do that so again. This is the point where the the tendency for collectible ship is very important to watch to make sure that. We're actually matt a very careful way but I think it's so insular like you said it's it's it's necessary to go this direction just to be mindful of in transparent about how you're taking the rations. Totally Harry so I think that's thank you for bringing that up David So I mean I try to offer the idea of synoptic integration and a genuine pluralism as an alternative both to you. You know sort of an ECLECTIC relativism and some sort of monolithic modernism. Right a practice You know the example of the success of the midst martial arts defeating the traditional purist is something we should pay very good attention to go. No no you must stick with no no. The mixed martial. Artists kicked the ashes of the of the purest regularly and reliable okay. So let's pay attention to that. Stop pretending stop pretending right now. I think what I what I'm trying to argue is the way we get something like that. Is that we. We are always committed to the best scientific account of the functionality that is needed and that the choices we do not get choose the functionality the functionality that we're trying to address should be given to us by our best scientific accounts of individual industry big cognition. That's what I did with Alex. The this is what is the best account with the functionality. So although you have all kinds of choice in the variation you don't have choice about the functionality that needs to be present so that's as very strong on series set of constraints. It's very much argue about no we have to be there's a there's a universalism of the process. Even though there's GonNa be a lot of right Jerry is on a specific implementations and because a lot of these practices are not new. They've been around for thousands of years. We can actually look look at the society's at practice them to see what kinds of people they tend to produce. What kinds of society kinds of behavior and outcomes so there's actually a lot of data that we can look at yes very much so I think I think that's an extra point you be and what we can do is we could coordinate that with the science so that we can then and this is the neck? It's report of a higher order about the the notion of functionality that I mentioned the David we we we could note how various practices have complementary sets of strength and weaknesses like mindfulness and active open-mindedness right. And so that we can put them into a proper opponent processing so that we can get them to be as self corrective as possible in the functionality. They're and they're here. We and I'm not saying we can top down design this totally but we can make use of a lot more top down design than have happened in the historical Religions and that. That's why not take advantage of that possibility now. I'm very cognizant of an Jamie about this and a little bit of feedback on some some of his stuff because he's very concerned about what he calls. Ethical called the ethical cultivation and creating a code for ethical calls and and what he means by that is in addition to a commitment to The functionality of this higher order functionality that I mentioned the David I do think we need to very proactively. Have you know a a deep commitment to code of conduct That everybody asked You You know basically adhere to and that has to be non-negotiable because it's just too much history of spiritual teachers OP being deeply abusive to their adherence and Again let's stop pretending and let's stop pretending that enlightenment is is some kind of get out of Jail Free Card or claims to enlightenment for people's behavior. It's not it's immoral behavior and it's immoral behavior and it's immoral world behavior and we let's instead of pretending let's agree that we are part of what we're also not going to be putting into negotiation as a shared to conduct Jamie's working on that at getting him some feedback at again let's reversed designed this reverse engineer this from the history of of all this abuse youths and also the history me no of how people fall into self destructive self deceptive behaviour the best science and let's put in the best code of conduct. Is it going to be perfect. There are no algorithms for this but we can do is be really clearly proactive around the unwanted like a this is not just moral code of conduct this stomach code of conduct like everybody should be committed like to that what what is a value isn't your particular sacks but the shared sat. The shared commitment to opponent process shared commitment to the best science of the functionality of the machinery that were trying to educate and transform so there's also an epidemic code of conduct people would have to adhere to and. That's not something I want you right. I'm not I don't naught. It's not my job nor do I want that role. People keep casting the role of somebody WHO's trying to found a new religion which I find a horrifying proposal the prospect that is not what I'm trying to do. I look you guys and rebel wisdom. There's this immersion community. There's these immu emerging colleges. Oh Jesus practices. I'm talking to so many places where people like Rape Kelly right. They're they're putting together a college. He's a practice footing community. There's four e cognitive science telling us all about embodied embedded right enacted cognition. There's all these new practices for around our collective intelligence. It's like circling and this is all happening. I'm trying I'm not trying to found something. I'm trying to reflect and articulate on this so we can appropriate it in the wisest possible fashion. That's what we need to do it. We need to understand it so we can participate it and you know be guided by it but also guided united in an optimal way. We don't have tied. We don't have time to wait for the normal patterns of social evolution to work this out. I just don't have that you don't have that luxury John. I have a question for you. That's the guy. Hi Jessica Nice to be thank you so much for all the workday for it's been amazing thank can university classes at home or pre good good. That was one of the intent. One of the intent was I mean with a very delicate balance on my part I was trying to get to write something. That wasn't like academic in the sense that right you had to take aches within academia but nevertheless gave people the sense that they were participating in something like that that you know Joe so thank you for that feedback because I was very ah been continually concerned about that goal but whether or not I could hit that point I asked so awesome. Yeah so wanted to put a little bit of context to the the work that you're bringing forth like what prompted you to bring this whole series fourth and if you've had any mystical experiences in your life in how you've integrated down what the true. Yeah okay that's also a long answer so I'm just give you'll be if you'll be patient with me So part of it is hard it is to buy graphical of course that's normally where it starts so I You may have heard mentioned. I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian family and that sort of traumatized away Another Christianity and then coming out of that and and I think it's no coincidence that a lot of people are interested by series. Also have that similar kind of background because when you come out of that of course she rejecting a a lot but it also goes deeply into sort of the the way you inhabit your body the way you put your mind. That's how that the religion is directed to function and whether or not it functions properly. It still gets mashed with that so there was a personal project of first of all encountering a kind of existential void when I formally rejected all of the superstructure of the religion but all of that machinery was still running in me. If you WANNA if you WANNA put it does that sort of make sense. What I'm saying is so I'm looking for? I'm looking for to satisfy kind of eight hundred that I I. I also had formally disavowed And so that sent me on a personal quest and that coincided with knee encountering in university the figure of Socrates and Blah Sophy and then I saw I really I realized realized an alternative way of addressing that level of need that didn't commit me to that particular framework that I had rejected. And so I I gotTa to explore deeply then very quickly disappointed again because the topic of wisdom and self transcendence and transformation Once you've taken your Plato Gorse and maybe an aristotle course that's it. The topic disappears from academic philosophy. I at least ah when I when I was growing up and so I was deeply disappointed. I wanted I wanted. I wanted to continue down that pedagogy path. I wanted to know what it needs to cultivate wisdom so I then again. I took up an ecology practices I was living in bickering at the time. And it was a place called all the touch Meditation Center and they taught me a pass and Meta tie teach one and it slowly dawned on me what that ecology was doing for me and how powerful it it was and so I i. I drove into that very deeply. And of course I've continued that. That's not what a twenty eight years I've been practicing that and beyond and so that was deeply transforming warming me and then as I grew in that I finished my Undergrad so forth one in Grad school as I was doing that. The academic world shifted philosophers Veloce fers and psychologists started in the nineties the puck about wisdom and mindfulness and and a deeper notion of rationality other than just argumentative. So in a weird kind of lucky Cairo's for me the academic world and my world could now be join together and I started to see that many people were talking more. Broadly about something that is only sort of reflecting on within my own life life and you have to be really careful at that point narcissism can just grab your right so again was fortunate and then something took me out of urban narcissistic framing so my good friend. One of the premier figures in for a cognitive science. Thomas was to teach a course called Buddhism and cognitive dog new science and he could teach John Biegel persons teach that and so they recommended me. I took the course up. It was going to just do a survey of topics. Mindfulness and then unreal tobacco night because it had happened to me and I was seeing happening. Widest confluence. Why are people putting these things together? And why does it seem so natural. Children are appropriate to do so and then as I did that I started to make sense. I started to formulate this issue. Oh they're trying to bring the science and in ecology practices. This is together to address the meeting crisis. And and then when I started developing the site caught this course often multiple times a year sometimes three times a year right Out once or twice I think I did. I was developing this argument. In conjunction with my students and progressively with their help refining it and developing and seeing how it was really taking likely it was really thinking their teeth into and so that guided me to evolve the argument with their help over about. It's well to the twelve year periods and then that's where the place where I felt ready to present the argument to the world. That's talking about now as the aspect of it in my practices I have. I have had multiple and at times profound owned mystical experiences on even experiences that I would call awakening experiences. I'm not claiming to be enlightened because for me in order for somebody to be enlightened. They they have to have a reliable in systematic stater consciousness technician character so that they reliably systematically overcome the perennial problems. I don't think I can claim that in my life. Have those experiences inspired my aspiration and therefore afforded me to become if you'll allow me addictive wiser Yes they have been significant and contributory and one of the things that struck we in the project of the argument for the meeting. Crisis is precisely. How can we articulate these experiences so that they fit within and are legitimated intimated by a scientific worldview rather than being dismissed or hidden because people feel they need to dismiss or hide them because they feel they don't fit into the scientific worldview? I can we do that in a way that not only legitimates them but allows them to you know inspire people aspire to wisdom. How do we how can they? How how can they incorporate into their developmental trajectory these anomalous experiences to use a scientifically neutral term? Such that those experiences can reveal their functional potential of forty people deep self transcendence. Yes so what were some of your tools of integration. So cognitive science helped a lot helped a lot because not only in its content in terms of you know a an explanation. A non dismissive explanation of the phenomenology and the functionality of many states tried to articulate and in this series but also the practice of cutting science itself the practice of synoptic the integrated between radically different vocabularies adversaries on policies methodologies. Is You know the neuroscientist and the computer scientists and the psychologist linguists and the anthropologists there they they use different language different methods and gather different evidence and what you're doing a cognitive scientists. You practicing getting them. You're not trying to create the one discipline that will make them although away or found. And if that's not what you're doing you're not trying to replace them you're trying to afford a synoptic. Integration a avaiable viable bridging structure between them so that they can transformative Lii and reliably talk to each other so that we avoid eclecticism and instead of word something like a d a d district cognition between the disciplines so the practice of cognitive science and somatic integration also helped a lot. Because you you you you practice moving between different languages. Different discourses are different ways in which you pay attention to your empirical evidence even even how you constitute and label your evidence and so that's valuable when you're trying to move between right. The language of the oncology that people people generate often spontaneously around these experiences and the language on the analogy of you know of the scientific worldview the scientific picture of the nature of the mind I like using the metaphor of the API like we're looking for that application program programming interface yuckiness. Yeah yeah it doesn't. It doesn't mean that we change our own programming but we at least have a common language and can output and input data. So what what you want is if you want to afford the possibility of deep compression where the various disciplines could converge on something but then the but also deep variation they can bend glowed in very insight into their own particular oncology's their own particular methodologies and feedback in and feedback out feedback and feedback. That's again the analogy. I'm trying to get for what we need distributed cognition to do it and this is also actually really useful to you not just across different disciplines Like you know how does anthropology talk about this particular Mr History talk about hottest computer. Science talk about it at a psychology. Talk about it but also within the difference spiritual disciplines. I find that the practices or the experiences that that have consistency across different spiritual disciplines around the world tend tend to be the most stable in the most useful. So so I I agree. I think we can rely. I mean we can rely. I don't think I like not an unquestioning fashion him but we can. We can regard as possible. That's all he can regard as plausible a lot of these A lot of these practices. That show cross cultural convergence. It's I think that's a very very very good point. I think that that is definitely something. We should pay attention to. Now I would point out that many of these things cannot be understood stood in a purely papas fashion. So this this this is this is this is a this is a deeper thing requires a deep commitment. You need to really really. I mean you you need to really practice some Taoist practices if you WANNA Understan- with ours perspective and Saburo Practices Christian practices and STOIC practices decision and So you need to do that and this is again where you don't WanNa be a dilettante. You WanNa be a depot Tay And that's a different thing because you want to try again you don't go in slavishly remember my point about the mix martial arts but you go in with deep respect saying okay. I'm going to pursue this deeply. I'M GONNA SOAK DOC percent right and I'm going to put it into dialogue. Here's the dialectic again. With these other and see if I can watch the deep learning. What's the deep convergence that comes out of that? You GotTa put put deep devotion into your deep learning to get the practices out of it so this is a long process. I mean it's a long education. But that's what all the traditions say. By the way you know. So Plato said you know you. Shouldn't you should be basically school until you're thirty before you can even start talking in the dialect and things like that So for example one of the things. I'm trying to more responsible and I'm going to take this up probably next week. Is I think Plato had on the academy. You can't come in to the academy unless you could do geometry and that always sort of whatever but then and I thought wait a SEC. You see a lot of these thinkers showing a deep connection between training in geometry and the ability to practice. Dialectic of many of their metaphors are geometrical. Geometrical metaphors pulled China's uses the time. And then I realized hey especially when you understand. All of their math is geometry. There's no Algebra. There are no equation. Asian everything is done geometrically right and it's done constructively you participate lead you right so what I wanna do is work through. Euclid actually worked through the constructions do the sacred geometry. Because I think that kind of geometrical practice is a bridge between perspective and proposition knowing because what geometry does is it takes a lot of your perspective will machinery and deeply integrated with a proposition argumentation. And there's all sorts of because you're actually involved in the construction. The embodied act of constructing the figures is actually integral to the argumentation. Going to try and work my way through Euclid I in that fashion So guy sent stock might do that with me. So that's what I need about. You know you like you have to. You have to dive very deeply into these practices. Is I want to understand the NEO platonic. I understanding of dialectic. I've got I gotTa have that gotTa have that internalized or I'm just going to be reading their words and translating into stuff that Ah transformative for me. I'm not going to help anybody. There's also another point to it where by having the foundation of all these different perspectives and trainings The integration of whatever insight comes is much deeper and much more are persistent over time so just a couple of days ago when we did the watch party of your episode eleven We talked about whether a you no an awakening. As a result of skin of a spontaneous event without any prior practice is even useful at all are worth talking about and my point was that it's not because because it can't be integrated in deep and persistent fashion because the person doesn't have a foundation of where to link until the different things in their life. I agree I think that's right now what we have to do so first of all deep agreement with what you're saying and you see that very clearly. I mean you see for example Sahara going with multiple teachers in the six years deep again deep devotion to set a practices. And and yeah. I think that deeply afford it. The the deep insight that comes with Houston Enlightenment's experience So first of all deep agreement we do have to I I WANNA talk about. I WANNA be careful here people because I know this from the research people will have these experiences and They do you tend to overvalue them in kind of this psycho dynamic sense With good reason because often they've got a sense of the really real and and they're called towards that in some powerful. What we need to do is we need to create a way in which those people feel the invited to take that into the college of practices? So that if they have another one of those experiences it is taken right. So what I'm trying to say is get get them to re frame it as an invitation to a deep learning rather than as a final state that they're going to cherish rush and hold onto. I can't remember who who quote the Might just be kind of you know nameless ZAN quote but it's it's a real work of meditation begins after awakening. I really love that. Yeah Yeah and you also get the you know before four. I did send rivers rivers mountains just mountains while I was doing. Zen Rivers worked rivers and mountain works out and then after I was done notice he says that was done. To examine rivers were rivers and mountains or mount and so yeah very very much. There's that I that's why I'm trying to do. It's one motive. There are other motives other reasons but one of the reasons why I'm trying to you alter the sense of sacredness off of perfection completion finality right and back onto that notion from the Christian mystics of EPA cases of ongoing perpetual self transcendence And that the secret criticize the inexhaustible Coordi- of ongoing software incentives reconfigure sacredness and. That was precisely what you just said so that people always see this right as a process that should always be tied to ongoing learning. There was a question the Chad and actually this relates to a question that I also have About Shadow work whether in the union sense or more in the more modern sense from the integral model. You didn't mention that very much in the college. You have practices you put into it so it depends what you mean mean by that So they're they're the the the problem. I let me go very careful here. The promises we use a single term for something that again again we have multiple disciplines with multiple colors we have this term the unconscious And the second the way their psycho dynamic world talks about this is very different from how a AH cognitive psychology talks about it and coordinating. That is something that nobody's doing very well. As far as I can NC I touched I tried to touch upon it a little bit. Where did I try to do was provided bridging point in the notion of self deception? At because I thought that it was integral to a lot of the machinery of the psycho dynamic approach but nevertheless you can see it talked about very deeply in presupposed within a lot of our cognitive psychology so I tried to get a bridging point there. I'm not claiming that sufficient but I'm trying to explain. I tried to be responsible to that concern. I do. I mean I do. I Journal my dreams I put myself through unions therapy psychotherapy understand. I devoted myself to it. Went through at practice attended workshops went into therapy long term therapy. Happy did the dreamworks. I I met And I see I see value in it I feel a video soon with my good friend Anderson. Todd he he well. I taught him cognitive science but he was also he's also went through he's now practicing psychotherapists. JAGNA NYA WE'RE GONNA do a dialogue required about that to give more space in time to this he's also gonNA contrast His interpretation Dacian of young with Jordan Peterson's so critique in that sense right credit interactive dialogue. So I do I I am trying to he. Something that's responsible to that Why I'm reticent is although I've done all of that so I don't feel that I just a naive participants I I don't feel I have the requisite Expertise I do think so. Now if people will accept the caveat that now I'm speaking personally personally and I don't have the scientific evidence to claim to claim that this has the kind of functionality that I've claimed for some of the other practices that I recommended nevertheless within my personal experience keeping a dream journal and interacting with dreams and trying to sort of increasing lucidity Has Has has been beneficial to me. And so I have to bring a young and A framework to bear on that that has been beneficial to me I don't know what to say beyond that other than I'm going to give somebody who I trust has both the cognitive science and The Union psychotherapeutic background. An opportunity to talk about this and I will participate in an effort that I think that's the best best way that I would feel comfortable with Responding to that concern. I wonder if there's if it would be helpful to talk about the overlap between what we know of shadow work in union sense in stoicism which was basically like exposure. I would think I mean I like. I said it's a far as there are ways in which you are trying to extricate and then ameliorate through a systematic and reliable response mechanisms of self deception. I think there is serious. Overlap and I've already said that and that's where I feel comfortable sort of you it stating things I'm making claims The problem and so I wanna try very carefully ear. I've already indicated eight of my personal respect and my involvement. I was my first philosopher in yum. Was My psychologist. And they're like your first lovers right there templates for everything and so I have a reverential attitude. I don't criticize Plato. It doesn't mean I don't criticize the issue I have is one of the things I like about young. It's I like how right I liked. Liked the dynamical the idea of the psyche as dynamical system that self organizing and capable of complex affiliation. There's many things I find deeply concept. I just don't quite know what to do with some of the major union claims A scientist. I don't like I don't know what right so Jordan. Peterson makes a lot about architects protects. People talk about archetypes and sort of understand what that might mean. But I don't know how. How would you go about like what would what would make that acclaimed potentially false like the hero in people? But you know it's so general and and and malleable it. Well Luke is the hierarchy is gone. Although he's the roach well how do you know like how you do that. And so please in a repeat one more time. I'm not being dismissive here. I told you the respect. I I told you how I've committed. We're going to film this on the twentieth. It's going to be presented. I am responsible responsible to this just trying to share with you. I'm more hesitant about some of this language and what what to do about it So I to be fair to me. I see such variation amongst unions. Some people take with the archetypes as a deeper metaphysical truth other people take them as pragmatic tools that are sort of useful and helpful. But you're not deeply committed to their psychological optical reality I see all that variation and so. That's why I'm hesitant. I'M NOT TRYING TO I. I tried to explain to you my real commitment my real responsibility but also trying to explain to you. What my reticence and my education you know what I would love to see is That research that they did in New York where they put long term practicing Buddhist monks who've had an awakening experience into an MRI scanner and got them to enter the non dual awareness state. And then actually looked at the physiological markers of what that looks like so likewise there are practices for entering these kind of archetypal states that that some people practice. I'd love to see the same research being done with. That would be great if you've got somebody sorta into deep active imagination. And they were. We're having a sort of a confrontation with something that was numerous or them and what that looks like. I agree I would feel more comfortable talking about that stuff if that research was in place precisely because that research is a place for Buddhism and for things like active override. This and I feel much more comfortable talking about it because I could see grounded and things. It's undeniably universal. which is you know our physiology our brain functioning? That's where that's why again. There's much confidence like I said I. I don't want to recommend things for which I've tried to keep to a rule will where I don't speak deeply about things where I do not feel. I have the requisite expertise to many people are doing that today. Too frequently in too many ways. And that's again one of the ways in which collective intelligence can fall credible shitting When you get a lot of And punditry as opposed to Cheerful expertise the brand new future thinkers members for Dole is now live develop your sovereignty and self knowledge with our in depth courses get access to our weekly since making calls joined the QNA's with past podcast guests and much more become a future member today at future thinkers dot org slash members members to stay up to date with episodes subscribe to feature thinkers on your favorite platform and leave us a review or like. It really helps out the show and forget to the shares episode on Social Media. Guys we are coming up about an hour and a half already. We only had John for an hour. So maybe we can take one more one or two more questions here. Actually actually I don't. I won't trust your time. If you need to end I understand why slot it two hours for this the half Oh okay great then we can no I. I started eleven to one for this precisely because I mean I'm talking a lot. I asked for the forgiveness of fellow participants but I do want to make myself as available as possible to the people who have common. I WanNa ask you questions My I like my time. Is You know very challenged so I wanna give you guys a concentrated concentrated chunk of it right now cool. Thank you David. Of course inside out questions were we wouldn't be having conversations brought up. That movie Pat John You may you may have seen the emission. The movie inside out the Pixar movie looking at the medicine. The brain has been eh for in terms of framing. The questions and understanding. One of the things One of the key parts that I think makes a lot of sense to me. it that's kind of interesting is in the moment if you remember the movie. Have you seen it personality. I'm not claiming to remember it that clearly. I I definitely seen it at definitely. Yeah and I also I enjoyed it lately. There's something there's there's a couple of key points one of them that's really interesting. Is Noticing win win. A joy and sadness are victims from the control center and deep memory and long term memory and anger sadness anger Disgust and fear are running the show. Mix a lot of what the personality for teenagers but they try to figure out what makes us make sense of the world world with that limited perspective and at the point that anger finally has enough. He's like that's it. I'm taking control or stealing. Mom's credit hard. We're hopping on the bus. We're going back to Wisconsin. The last place was known to be good to us. And there's a something in that makes sense from that perspective widely widely while we might want to go back something and so it makes sense. I'm why I'M GONNA I'm GonNa say it makes sense. Why make America great again is a the female makes a lot of people and so there's a compassion for understanding bat? The desire to go back there and there's also it takes a deep understanding step back and say wait. Wait a minute that place you want to go back to doesn't exist anymore. There's nobody there. There's something similar with I would say and I say hey this respectfully trying to bring more compassion to this whole thing but there's something in which it seems to me and this is an oversimplification. So pardon me but but Jordan Peterson is doing something and also John Competitor. I think to some extent is makes religion. Great again in this other something. Very careful about the notion of yes. These traditions are wonderful and the place. We were developmentally when these came them into practice in the real world complexity of the world that we're dealing with now is no longer sufficiently complex that our worldview so the WHO pointed out is the necessity of the collapse of the islands of personality to grow a new sense of who we are and in some we we have to have a collapse of at least our ideological relationship to our institutions on from a from an authority as being a participatory Top down bottom up at the and it's a very powerful the same kinds of things where our emotion state charges they know. That's over writing. The participatory layer is the last thing we want to do. We don't WanNa do that unless it's the only choice. We have left because evolution early. We know. That's that's how we're you're messing with our survival. You must decode so again because a lot of sense of why we have such a challenge and I'm curious if you have additional thoughts about yeah go ahead. Sorry interrupted Glen. Just just about how we approach that. Respectfully I mean this is like a deeper in conjunction for what Jordan says really. Maybe we really need to understand how. How talented Kalisz and respect that Mrs Hardy Species I've ever done I prison? I'll comment David. I was just really beautifully. Articulated really really really beautifully articulated. So I want to go through this again carefully. I can bring my A.. Game Dolly questions. You guys are asking the I hope. I hope you feel that that's happening. First of all and this is why I'm very suspect I'm suspicious of both the nostalgia and the Utopia because they sort of make use of the same machinery in different waist. So the idea that You know the predictive processing model which I don't think he's completely comprehensive but it's a powerful model at at leads to this conclusion. There's two things that can really become super salient and Therefore come with a risk bullshit for our brain winding is familiarity. And I'll say this and I'm very comment about this. The brain prefers Sad or unpleasant familiarity over unexpected acted Prefer prefer side familiarity dysfunctional familiarity over. You know uneducated completely novel happiness on as we we have we we seek out. You see this A your give you many of you may have experienced Francis in your your relationship pads. You'll you'll go back to a familiar pattern. This is why attachment theory is so predictive of people's romantic relationships. Not because because they're not because of what they had with. Their parents was particularly functional or good it might have been dramatizing but nevertheless it's familiar. So that's what they look for in their relationship even though knowing at a proposition level. That's a disaster. Because what I had with my parents was it but they repeat it so this was a one thing is the intoxicating talks equating lure a familiarity which is often because we are predicted machines and with by go with what's familiar than I can make predictions right and so that is something we have the deeply be on guard but we also have the opposite which is right. We can be addicted to be the predictions How does that seem to totally nail down the future? That's the Utopia ripe it. It's it's it's inevitable the you know you get these utopic envision. This is if we just do this. Then it's inevitable that we'll get there when of course historically all the pursuits of Utopia have have been really. Okay does Astra's No different people to Alexander Bargain agree about utopias. I'll put that aside for now. He and are GonNa talk more about that so I think that is something first of all. Psychologically that steepening what you drew from inside out but I'm pointing in both directions action. We're we're tempted by both the style of Utopia and we have to be and we're tempted for similar reasons. Even those those seem so diametrically opposed. This is so progressive. Assert that so conservative. But they're both trying to do the same thing and they're both. They're both very dangerous in that way now. Making religion great again. Yeah that's So is is there some nostalgia and familiarity driving what all Jonathan are. I'm doing I think that's something that we should definitely consider as plausible I wouldn't WANNA reduce what they're doing that though I I just had a wonderful conversation with Jonathan. I've had several at to Jonathan a several with Paul. We're GONNA be together and I feel that well I've said this before. Even though we disagree on propositions I trust them because they come into these discussions in good faith and I mean that I mean that with multiple meanings of good faith they they come in And so I feel one of the things that's encouraged me a wade. You beat comments where I have discussions people who are clearly coming for example from from quite a variety of background sometimes Christian non-christian. They say that they feel that. The overall project is making progress that the distributed cognition is moving forward. And so as long as I'm getting that sense from my own sense and getting what objective or at least interest objective feedback that's happening. I think it's going well all right. And here's what I WANNA. I WANNA say more specifically I I have I just did it with you. I will challenge this dowager. I will challenge Utopia because I think it is such a place where we are so tempted for bullshitting are because of the the the brain just loves you know. It is predictions I nevertheless want to be careful about what I feel. I can claim it what I can't Clinton. I don't have an argument that forecloses on the possibility that Christianity might resurrect itself. The Way Paul and Jonathan Say I don't have of an argument that forecloses on that say no. No here it is. Here's my seven premises. That have the conclusion that Christianity is can't change itself because because man has Christianity like the other world religions reinvented itself in fundamental ways before yes it has and so for closing using like some of the way the new atheist do on this I think is there is no legitimate argument for that so I don't I wanna I wanNA always try to to make sure that I have not presenting a foreclosure position I think that Jordan Hall is correct that the Meta crisis to use Thomas Thomas Bjorkman's term the Meta crisis is complex defying at an increasing at an accelerating rate and what that means what that means is the differences of degree of their enough become differences inclined nine and I think what we're seeing is. We're seeing a very significant difference in kind in the type of problem that we need to solve. And for that reason I strongly wrongly suspect I do not foreclose but I strongly suspect that the established religions do not have the machinery to make themselves viable for most people in a way. That's going to be needed to address the Meta crisis. So that's what I take. The deduct answer you David. Yeah I did and I'm an WanNa really appreciate that That that nuance there of We just don't want to. I also want to appreciate that. It's not to disparage that. It really is to encourage us to be more open to the deep discussion and I loved that. We're moving forward. Even though we may disagree and in our bones in a way that feels like you know I don't want to give up the nostalgia or that Utopia and yet I really wanna find the place where we can work together so I appreciate it that new. What's what's very much like your your response to that figure but I would add one more element of nuance to it? which is the following? I do believe And and I I've talked to people That it's possible for people to return to the traditional religions perhaps with some degree of education from all of this but anyways to return to them at least some rejuvenated reformulated versions of them and find again outta cultivate meaning and wisdom and self transcendence that is happening. And I don't know if people can return to Christianity in a in a revitalised vitalized way revalorised way. It really works for them to help them. Significantly addressed the meeting crisis than great great. Like and I don't want to dismiss that and I I don't WanNa pay that with the brush of that somehow inauthentic I I think that's a mistake as well. I think it gets this now. I mean I think those people have a responsibility to follow the example given by Paul and Jonathan of entering into deep. Good faith dialogue with people who do not find those traditions viable for them anymore. So I'm not saying that people might not be able to return I think returning and then proclaiming to everybody. Oh you should just return I don't think that's a responsible to hi. I'm Hella question. I'm about to ten or eleven episodes into the serious Addressing this in later episodes but my question concerns in this ecology of practices and in calculating ginks meaning in wisdom was the role of humor. Genre here is sleep and also another. It connects another a question that you pretty much answered during this During this hour at the house In your research or travels a Do have some like really particular incensing this cultural culturally specific when stations of the meaning crisis Mrs Address Cultural Culture. A culture in Humor Dumi are like super connected. Life Sewer Ultra so. I wonder if that can be humor is is it regarded. This one is regarded as a practice. It can be a practice or like on the very meadowland. can can communicate with the whole geographical tactical structure. Yeah I don't know if I would call humor practice because I think it's It goes more into because chimps are capable of humor which leads me to believe that? It's not so much. An acquired skill that we have to refine it especially when we want narrative forms of humor and we have to learn narrative white extensively. Ah So I am not sure but your question is deeply intriguing to me. Because I'm interested I and I don't know yet so that's why haven't spoken about. Ibm I indicated examples of this degree to which like role playing an Improv. Might be cycle technologies that might be needed in ecology of practices. Because I'm aware of the fact like I mentioned the series. The jeep forming. That's arisen in the Scandinavian in countries. And it's clearly a response to secularization and the meeting crisis within the Scandinavian countries. I don't have a jeep forming. It's do you remember when a jeep for me. You know what you know what role playing yes engine and then you have live action role playing where you actually acted out. And then what you have in jeep forming is you take it up another notch you you dungeon masters basically director. They'll come in the setup a scene an interpersonal scene and they will sometimes cut the scene of sometimes. Get you to switch roles. Will they'll hand you an object can tell you to use it as a prophet. So you're acting now what you're trying to get is you're trying to get the phenomenon called bleed. So you're trying to do is you're trying to get this place in which your pretending and this is what I mean by serious play when I talk about serious play predict where the pretense of the role playing and what's actually actually happening in your real life the line between them blurs they bleed into each other so you can no longer tell if you're just playacting or actually activated a lot of of the processes that are effectively a real so they see this bleed state because it gives them a place in which they could play seriously play in this ritual. How distributed cognition context in improvisisation setting? They can play with new identities new perspectives and thereby afford a process is of self transcendence. Now I see that although that's taking place clearly in a very secular situation that's very much deeply analogous to a lot of religious behavior. It's it's is religious in a lot of ways the way you go you go into a separate space are non space non time like when you go into church you take on these identities you get it shifted around. There's a master of ceremonies that redirects things. It's supposed to allow you to play with different Identities different perspectives different patterns of interaction. It's affordable nauseous of Trent transformative participatory knowing and and I've talked to people had some students who wrote essays for me on this. Find a similar similar thing happening with Improv And so and humor plays a vital role in these kinds of technologies Because humor is often away in wit and so this is where I think it's important because when I talk about when you get laid on the sears. I talked about absurdity. Absurdity is when you have a perspective clash that you can't resolve humorous when you have a perspective of clash and you can resolve it with the kind of insight when you can resolve by gauging aging and kind of serious play. So they're those places that I just mentioned like deep form there so pregnant with a possibility for humor because people are seriously playing between bridge between we Perspectives and one of the things that does is what one of the if you if you can bring sort of humor. In few those practices it could help. Ameliorate eight the threat of absurdity seventy intruding on them. So I do think I do think we I knew more we were to be done so let me try new very cautious for. I suspect that those kinds of sex cycle technologies should be incorporated it into an ecology of practice because they act as significant bridging cycle technologies between individual practice and collective the practices of collective intelligence and they allow people that little place where they can play with Alternative things that they could play with they could bring humor and play lay serious play to bear on the experience of sort of absurdity so that they learn to address it more profound but did that. Answer your question. Yeah Yeah. It's not only that the dancers question did also makes me understand my question. Why this like I actually? I'm from theater backgrounds. So you go. There go wasn't the starting point from which I just wonder the humor but now I understand question yes and also go is that the other is the practices like fall under this of I'm doing Daniel. I'm Greg Right now. And he wants to sort of create The meaning temple. He calls it where Theater and arts both enacted and static are are being used to vet to create a place in which serious play is being pursued and various forms of serious Chris. Play are being put into you. Know a kind of type of dialogue with each other so that people can seriously play in in that space in the temple right. It's analogous to the sacred place because think about going to church again. There's all this stuff happening. There's drama and theater and there's is all this stuff happening again not in any kind of irreverence or a derogatory fashion but something analogous to that if he that's what he's is trying to work towards building and I'm working with him on that but he's he's undertaking not As something that he's GonNa vote a lot of his time and talent or it's a doing exactly that kind of thing where people can explore What it would be like to have a place for sacred play progressive amazing moments? That you guys. Can I just ask a question. I am I steaming. Okay to all of you The manures Domi- gear is acting acting up a little bit but still coming across is sort of sane and stable from an audio perspective active. You sound fine. Okay just to let you know That's what's happening getting a again Generally find better just to explain to people if that's happening so that they don't misinterpret and this attribute affectively that I'm not undergoing I should think about the risk. What do you think are the biggest risks to the meaning crisis right now? Currently they could. Could I ask you to be a little bit clear. There's two things you being. The the risk people are suffering from the meeting crisis or the risks. That doc Might come to us as we try to address the meeting Chris. So there's there's risks the risks in the sense that people are suffering more and more and then there's also risks that might accrue to as we attempt to address it. So which one of those did you neither do. I guess they kind of tying together a little bit but yet he the author so I think what's happening And so I started a letter wicky with David Chapman about this. Because I'm concerned that the mythology might be shifting and that might portend something so as argued with Christopher masterpiece MISCEVIC in the book. I think the primary mythology that the culture has used excessive meeting crisis is the SAMBA. And and then there's GonNa be apocalypse and for all kinds of reasons in you could. There's a video on that and there's the book so I won't go into that in detail. What I what I mentioned to David at an end and Chris supermassive petro and enter Sweeney? I've taking this up in their letter. Wicky or spout recommend is that the mythology might be shifting. You might be shifting from the Zombie to what we saw in movie joker which is a much much more worrying? Not He's aren't worrisome. But see what you what you have in joker is you have instead of the Amorphous. Drifting mass sort of being consumed by Meaningless you have You have a profound kind of narcissism that has internalize the meaning crisis and identified with an eye in in such a way that it has provided this possible response. which is I mean? Narcissism isn't inherently absurd state By if I could make my environment absurd around then my narcissism seeds legitimate. It seems to fit not because it fits but because everything is now equally absurd we we can see how this is being taken up in politics right the the just the the emotionally and sometimes I guess also physically violent attempt to normalize absurdity so that you know pernicious officious and completely self-serving narcissism is rendered normal And you can. You can see various political figures who have adopted that strategy clearly And what's what's very because that's what they would do. This is the last ditch stand relevance realization. Because they're holding onto. Is that that at least things are relevant to me. They're not actually relevant. They don't actually make sense. But at least there's that there's that inward word pointing this. That's all that's left And I particularly concerned that that's being now modeled back to the culture the by the logically by the by by the violent narcissist that you see portrayed in joker I'm in the fact that that movie resonated with so many people and that it's the movies very careful. The movie never prevent presents him as a hero. Louis very careful nevertheless you could see how deeply attracted people were ought to him how he comes to stop he is initially. He tries to respond to the absurdity An each tries to take up an X.. Central Project but not to do these spoiler ship but as that project collapses he shifts to identify with it and to to end to violently promoting as much absurdity around him as he possibly can and that represents a particular particularly threatening. Turn in how people I think might be starting to respond to the meeting crisis So instead of people people sort of shuffling in silence there now Shouting in a kind of I duNNo. It's not even anger. Its Hind Hind existential rage that is trying to salvage the last shards of of intelligibility of meaning making so that I find that very very very worrying. And so the fact that we're getting increases in the you know in virtual exodus people leaving the real world to spend more time in the virtual world e coordinated with mythological trail of that the real world should be made absurd. That's that's very frightening But to me I take that to be Something that means the meaning crisis might be shifting how the people how it is biting into people's lives And what kind of response it's driving people to make And so that's worry On the the the the biggest risks I think facing us as the ones that I think been articulated here. that We create situations. That are rife because people are gonNA come into this and try and game what we're trying to do gave it for their own personal exploitation. That will overlap with my concern. That I just met GONNA come in and be maybe jokers and A deeply disturbing fashion So there there's that concern. There's a concern that will be overwhelmed by Nostalgia That will that will be overwhelmed by utopianism as we try to address the crisis and centrally. And I'm glad many of you have But your finger on this. There's also the concern that We're we're we're putting ourselves in position. Where a lot of the machinery of self deception that we don't even know about is going to be activated until we have to? You have to make a serious Zephyr To increase our knowledge of of those self deceptive processes especially those that are existing in distributed cognition. So so we have to take that seriously and then finally And I've already mentioned this. Just repeat it. We need to address how all of this is going to interact Iraq with the with. Cyborg the CYBORG future because act also tremendous risk. Isn't the transition from. I'm the Zombie to the joker. The kind of collapse of meaning structures nihilism the narcissism is in that kind of for part of the transition. That goods is happening in needs to happen. It could be I mean I. I think that's an understood thing to say. The thing about I mean so a good way of understanding it Is that system is going critical right on. So criticality needs the structures of breaking down and the thing that criticality the structures need to break down. You need a break if you're GONNA make a new friend is self organized. Criticality is machinery of insight. So there's definitely up so that's why I was. I I think Legally a risk is the appropriate way of putting. It's not a certainty. There's not lost their but so the the criticality is a risk in that Jack It gives us the potential for restructuring. But the problem with criticality is can also just destroyed the system can just lose integrity and fall apart. You can get system collapsed Ed So Criticality has to have a very of of using a sort of vague Adjective that's a very good set of constraints so that it reliably goes to medicine ability rather than System collapse because you know very very sophisticated systems distributed cognition have hit have hit criticality at instead of restructuring civilizations have collapsed and so I think we need to take that seriously so That's why I'm concerned. I mean I agree with you so let me be very clear about that. I agree with you you that the the most neutral way of describing it as we might be seeing sort of an intensification of the Calorie by criticality has to be treated with rate sensitivity finesse. If it's going to go into restructuring and not a not enough collapse it seems to me uncovering in this is probably the Meta thing you're trying to accomplish with your video series but it seems to me focus on the individual transitioning that kind of Kasim Hasim Nihilism into something more whatever that might be self created meeting is is that should be a central focus rather than kind of the Meta societal level thing like every individual makes up the society and we need to every individual needs their own transition pass nihilism. Well I would hope yeah I mean I agree with you but I would hope what in this what I discussed with Jordan. I would hope that we would be doing both in an integrated manner That we would be top down and bottom up Out like how leading an Intel. How good problem solving generally works that? We're doing them in a dynamically integrative manner. That's what I'm actually trying to afford much as possible cool so we only have a couple more minutes left. I'm Eric has tested questionnaire. Do you have one. I had one coming Thank you for doing this. John early appreciate it. Thank you. I'd love to hear you speak a bit about what what progress in the space looks like. The I've a lot of people come through my life for like putting their foot in the water of personal work and self transformation and unlike something like accruing money or getting promotions. It can be somewhat difficult for people to feel like they're actually making some sort of tangible progress in the wayside wayside because you have you have your whole bodily system built around that like you get dopamine from seeing progress towards a goal Sherzer. What would would if someone asked you that? Like what would how do you define yourself making progress particularly towards for some ambiguous terms like wisdom system's self transformation So one piece of advice. Stop Looking for introspective phenomena logical accuse stop looking for now sensor now. I'm wise now. I'm good now. I mean I have a question. phenomenology is going to be Involved but stocktaking that Your touchstone The best thing to do it I mean is our other people people telling you in a fairly reliable basis that you seem to not be repeating your patterns of self deception and self destructive behavior. I mean way before four I saw phenomenologically any and I was look. Oh here's a wonderful experience it. Here's a wonderful experts at doing on all of those didn't indicate anything and then unbeknownst to me people came up to me and they said a one of them was my good friend. Dan Chaffee and he said you're you're talking differently and you're writing. Writing is changed and I got an idea. I wasn't aware of that. He said the way you presenting yourself. Since you've been doing the touchy about five years the way you present yourself and the way you're talking about things has changed. It's much more balanced and flowing and that was an I've been looking for all the little treasures right. There would indicate that but that was actually a genuine marker that progress at occurred so generally I tell people start looking introspectively for the phenomena logical marketer. Because it's an unreliable strategy you'll get phenomenal. Ethical markets. All over the place in some of them will track and some Komo instead. You know our other people telling you that you're more insightful. You're more flexible. You are more capable of Getting out of those patterns that you fall into or even of avoiding them that you actually seem to have not repeated this process when you get into this romantic relationship. This one seems to be going differently. That's what I mean so. This is what I tell people. Let me just what I do as a psychologist getting people to get a first of all shift off of what does it feel like to. What our actual behavioral markers I and are they noticeable in have been noticed by other people at especially if they haven't been noticed by you first so you get to three of your friends notice something about you? You haven't noticed I and it's a behavioral change. That's a clear. Figures should pay attention to so that's again why. Belonging longing to a community of distributor admission can also be valuable. This is one of the things often even see happening online. Encircling people will see see things about you that are much better into indications of how how you're progressing than all of the stuff you see about yourself that seems to to be your treasure trove telling you that you making progress. So yeah that's what I would say to that. Just just one quick thing as that was beautiful. Thank you immediately as you're speaking. What was coming up is like a lot of people start this to get more confidence within themselves right self strength like? I don't need the validation of others but now I'm tying my own progress to getting validation from others like having it mirrored back act having the arena demonstrate to me how could you avoid like the slippery slope there of just. Aw now putting all again my power and other people's recognition national okay. So part of it is recognize that the idea that you're going to do this on your own is largely not true so the stuff we have about behavioral change. This is why weightwatchers enough Alex anonymous significant change usually with wires. You joining a group of people who else committed to the same change. No I'll do it on my own no you I mean you might but it's like you know it's the same kind of might as on smoking and I won't get cancer. Yeah you might. You might not get cancer. But where's the probabilities. So we should calibrate our efforts where where the probabilities are. If you want real change you're going to have to get you're going to have to commit to a group that is people who are also committed to change. And that's where I would say I could answer your other concern. You know again we gotta be set up for all the reasons we've talked about. It can't just be echo chamber number. It has never all the commitment to the science of the functionality of a lot of what we discussed so I'm going to take that as granted what I'm going to say to you now but if we got a group group that has been vetted according to all those criteria then. We're not just seeking validation from people right. We're seeking feedback from them and that's not not the same thing as just seeking validation And like for example. Let me give you a I. I gave you an example but I wanNA remind you feedback from my students. When I was developing the argument for the Munich crisis over twelve years was enormously helpful? I got the places of the argument where I could not yet to on my this is also Sawai alike is why I do almost all my writing with other people because they give you feedback and they D- They give you critical feedback criticism in both constructive and and destructive sense of the word. So if you can if you can be one of the clear markers let me try to put it. This way is if the people in your community giving you feedback as opposed to just validation then. Your project is primarily narcissistic driven. This is why I make it a practice actors to talk to people in this community in this space. Who deeply disagree with because they you if Jonathan at Paul right and it's also going to be Very Cohen J. P. if they see something they disagree Reykdal? Tell me man they'll tell me say they'll tell me they'll if there's a weakness they'll they'll do they'll do it in love they'll do it in respect. They're not but they will give me real feedback and so you have to commit to that kind of community. Hope that answered your question. John thanks for doing this. This has been amazing and everyone else. Thank you for joining us you. Yes he asked. Thank you so much. The questions were really really good. That's why often had to give very extensive answers because the questions were deserving are very extensive response so I welcome the opportunity That's why don't late usually like commenting on videos now because he Most of the questions require this. Kind of deep responsiveness. Thank thank you very much for the great. We love to do this again with you sometime. In the future of Europe I I will commit I will commit to it again in the future with you. Committing radio right now. Google will work. We'll work it out while we're it's mutually convenient for the definitely committing to doing awesome great regular much honky and everybody who is watching Please check out John's series on youtube awakening from the meaning crisis You can just look that up and we do who Weekly Watch parties discussing the series on Mondays at ten A. M. P. S. T. Five PM GMT. We're taking a break for Christmas but will resume zoom in January and you can also check out our past interview with John and future thinkers dot org slash ninety eight mckeever March. I guys thanks because everyone into the future thinkers giveaway and win our brand new community membership including in depth courses private calls and more as well as the supply supply of quality a- a complete cognitive upgrade for your brain to enter the contest simply go to future thinkers dot org slash giveaway and sign up for a mailing list to instantly. We get our fifty page guide on how to adapt to the future. 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David Hume hume John Alex Jordan John Jamie youtube Ed Chris Master Pietro University of Toronto Jordan Hall John Ridicule Michael Peter Lindbergh lecturer associate professor Russia Godesberg Oregon
FTP105: Jim Rutt - Game B: The Fifth Attractor, A New Social OS

Future Thinkers Podcast

1:03:34 hr | 1 year ago

FTP105: Jim Rutt - Game B: The Fifth Attractor, A New Social OS

"Hey and welcome to future thinkers dot org podcast about the evolution of Technology Society in consciousness. I'm Michael and and I'm UvA Villanova. If you knew the show and you WANNA WANNA get a list of our favorite books popular episodes and to join our community go to future thinkers dot org slash start. Everyone will come back to future at your thinkers today on the show. We have Jim Rut complexity. Researcher System's thinker podcasts are and former key player in several technology companies. Jim was also previously the chairman of the Santa Fe Institute where he's been involved since two thousand two working in the scientific study of consciousness and evolutionary artificial intelligence halogens. He's also one of the thinkers behind big chain. DB The blockchain architecture start up in this episode. We talked about the concept of game. Be What it is and how it emerged the idea of network attractors complex systems like human society and how to prepare for potential collapse scenarios in the future to get all the links and show notes from this episode go to feature thinkers. Dot Org org slash one zero five get our fifty page guide on adapting to the future sign up at future thinkers dot org slash sign up upgrade your mental operating system the increase your personal sovereignty and gain deeper self knowledge with our courses and personal evolution register now at courses future thinkers dot org okay okay. Let's get started <hes> I would. I would say that the pattern which is most significant to me right now is that finally a a still small but growing number of people have started to realize that the <hes> epoch that were in the status quo game aim a whatever we want to call it is coming to an end sometime in the not too distant future whether it's tomorrow afternoon or twenty one hundred seems seems to me. The writing is on the wall. We have already exceeded the carrying capacity of the Earth's ecosystem for the level of extraction and dumping there were currently doing and that doesn't even consider the fact <hes> that the <hes> aspiring middle classes of the developing world are ramping up very very rapidly in their ownership ship of automobiles their consumption of actress ity etc and they should and indeed they ought to buy right the able to do that right <hes> so we if we extrapolate extrapolate <hes> the developed world's way of living it by itself is probably over its sustainability line and then we extend that to as you know one point three billion people in China billion to and India <hes> you know billions more across the world we clearly are driving the human race <music> over a cliff and numerous people <hes> are starting now to realize that <hes> and and it's causing some serious thinking way outside the box right <hes> and it's one of the reasons. I fight vehemently against Internet censorship people say oh we can't have radicals like Isis or neo-nazis on the Internet I go fuck that <hes> they're part of the status quo actually right <hes> both Isis and neo Nazis or just another flavor of the same old. Shit <hes> and and we need to allow them to say their crap so that really radical article thinkers <hes> to do examples. I like the US are Jordan Hall and Daniel Schwammberger who are way more radical than either arises or neo Nazis have space to bring forth their ideas and so <hes> what I'm tracking and what I <hes> hope continues. The news is that truly radical thinking <hes> be happening way outside the box on how to define a new social operating system that's consistent assistant with the limits of our ecosystem and even more and more way probably is congruent with our nature as human beings listening to those guys <hes> No. I was just finishing today listening to both of your episodes with them on your podcast and <hes> we've had them both on our podcast and it they've provided us with a ton uh-huh content over the years <hes> just through conversations between us and then you know with other people were familiar with their work and it's it's really quite a task to parse through the information what they're talking about and try to try to make sense of it as it is the vocabulary and the complexity of language that they use is fairly difficult. I would say A. and listening to you talk. I think you've fairly successfully brought it down into a simpler level more understandable level so I'd like to start actually asked by asking the question. What's your relationship to these guys as well as can you kind of unpack this idea of game a and Game B okay <hes> let's start first with the relationship <hes> Jordan Hall <hes> formerly Green Hall and I go back to. I don't know about two thousand seven or two thousand eight <hes> where we met Matt at at a <hes> Santa Fe Institute board of Trustees meeting where he was a brand new trustee and I was a <hes> ongoing trustee and we had a conversation conversation afterwards that went on for maybe four hours and it was like Holy Shit. Here's another person who starting to see the world more early alas I mean we still disagree a lot but <hes> in in ways that are close enough to lay. I see the world that it's really worth having a deep conversation and we continue then you'd have ongoing conversations for a few years and then <hes> two thousand twelve I finally published you know almost quote unquote informally and privately a sixty five page <hes> memorandum essentially which became known in pre-game be space ace as the Tome which laid out a <hes> whole series of ideas about what comes next right what could save the world then Jordan and I and a handful of others decided naively and as it turned out ineffectually <hes> to try to launch wants a new political party to <hes> Cherry these ideas forward we created something called the emancipation party <hes> and the writing on the Emancipation Mason Party platform is brilliant. It's amazing. Unfortunately there's something wrong with the old emancipation party website <hes> and it's not accessible at the moment but I'll see if I can get it up in the next couple of weeks <hes> and we spent some time marketing quote unquote not knowing what we were doing really <hes> got a few hundred followers <hes> but then we analyze the data and found something extremely interesting that despite the fact that the founding group was a mix of millennials. Dell's <hes> Gen xers baby boomers the people who were rallying to the flag of the Emancipation Party <hes> were strongly boomers mursal whole population had been boomers. We would've launched the party. <hes> next down were <hes>. Gen xers and then finally were millennials selenium with essentially zero. Take despite <hes> considerable exposure so we that we then being you know business people at Heart Orden and I <hes> <hes> <hes> let's go do some conversations with millennials and find out what the heck the problem is here and it became very clear that this was in two thousand twelve early two two thousand thirteen <hes> that the concept of a political party <hes> was poisonous with millennials <hes> even though this was utterly righteous stuff. You know it's amazing. I think back what we are advocating a completely new monetary system radical transparency and finance <hes> we we call the citizenship wage which was now called universal basic income <hes> <hes> Medicare for all and the drug wards awards <hes> you know it was amazing right. <hes> is stuff that <hes> <hes> really advanced thinking millennials tend to before but putting thing in the package of something called a political party by itself was poisons to millennials and so he said all right truthfully we have to appeal to millennials or the whole ideas debt and so we convened our group of twenty five or thirty four people and <hes> okay what are we going to do and Jordan came up with the idea that we really needed to do was to still keep the idea of the political party but create the concept of a series of on ramps <hes> that were more cultural in their manifestation and were not labeled party or politics until much later in the process and a Guy Guy Who's part of the group named Thor Muller <hes>. We're just throwing out names. He came up with game be and we all shit yeah. That's it that'll work and so oh <hes> this idea of the cultural on ramp to the emancipation party <hes> <hes> called game be that was a <hes> you know fairly explicit explicit repudiation of the way things are which by definition became gay <hes> took off and within a month or so <hes> the interest in trying trying to think through game be <hes> became much more of interest to the majority of people than the Party and the party. We basically just said forget that for for the time being. We don't really know how to do a party anyway. So <hes> we then explored the game B. Space <hes> for a while the group kept growing we continue to have <hes> face to face meetings in Stanton Virginia every six weeks or thereabouts <hes> your denier great relievers that <hes> social media online creates mostly what we call weak links and if you really want to build something you have to augment those with strong links and that it means face to face so whoever whoever self selected as the core team which I think by the end was close to fifty people most of them got together <hes> ah every six weeks in this little town in Rural Virginia where I happen to live <hes> and had like two two days and a half as of <hes> deep face to face jam and it's really interesting all those documents and many of the video from that still exists <hes> on a base camp <hes> site which I've continued would be paying the minimum bill just to keep it alive and at some point we might bring that <hes> bring that back <hes> for people to archive the early earliest histories of game aim big now this is where it gets interesting and a good lesson for the future sometime in mid twenty thirteen gene the game be group started to Fisher <hes> and eventually broke and it broke along <hes> basically eight two different dimensions <hes> one who I guess what I said is one key figure and I and it's interesting. I've talked to people subsequently gently and they said this has happened to them again and again and radical thinking organizations <hes> essentially became two different points of view one that personal change change was the first necessary step for the game be thing to emerge and the second <hes> faction was those who believed in this lobbyists lobbyists was inherited from the political party effort <hes> that what mattered more were better institutions right <hes> things like liquid democracy and the better monetary system as this is almost like a difference between top down or bottom up. Organiz night egg exactly and this and the <hes> and this human nature the arguments got very nasty and personal and name calling and we had to declare timeouts on a couple of people for ninety the days and all that stuff <hes> and eventually about your deny <hes> who are vaguely though not completely on opposite sides of this issue basically concluded fuck this right <hes>. This thing has become dysfunctional. It's a waste of time and we're just GONNA shut down <hes> Game Embi as a live entity but we did you know have some final communications to everybody. Say People <hes> this disagreement. <hes> seems this unbridgeable at the current time <hes> let's take these game be ideas out independently into the world and do something with them if we care too and and perhaps sometime in the future <hes> we will stitch this back enough <hes> to bring it back to life <hes> but frankly we're all tired tired of this group and were tired of this fighting and so people have your <hes> <hes> go about your life. Take our ideas. Take your ideas because it was always. It's a group effort and and bring them forth on an interestingly. That's actually what happened. <hes> there's numerous people who still label themselves as gain aimed people <hes> who are working either to a greater or lesser degree <hes> on on that <hes> the one thing we did keep going as has a very light linkage is there's a game B. Group on facebook <hes> that's publicly accessible <hes> that that is very minimal place for people to post communications and what they're doing or post warnings about the coming collapse or what have you etiquette now. Oh has a couple of hundred members more than was ever members of the interior game be group <hes> but <hes> I moved on in particular in in two thousand fourteen. I refocused my entrance on cognitive science <hes> and then soon closely related <hes> artificial general general intelligence and have spent a lot of my time <hes> subsequently in those fields <hes> and have not really done a tremendous amount of thinking king <hes> about the game the world while Jordan <hes> ended up <hes> connecting up with Daniel <hes> over business originally they <hes> got together or a nutritional supplements business. I think I'm not sure the details. I think Daniel and his brother had started. India and Jordan came in as a <hes> investor and business dude and they and they realized they had a bunch of other interests in common not just nutritional supplements and so I would say the San Diego <hes> flavor of game be Kinda came back to life around <hes> <hes> Jordan <hes> Daniel and a third guy <hes> houses name forests land or or Landry Landry who's also amazingly smart and interesting thinker. I hope to have on my pat on cast at some point and the three of them plus other people who they've connected in have continued to bake rate game be at a increasing rate and I would say that <hes> they are way further along than anybody else and having taken those original spores which were dispersed to the world and <hes> twenty thirteen and have created created something which may or may not be interested interesting yet <hes> so you know that's my relationships with Jordan first and then you have unspoken obviously the annual may times met him at Cetera very impressed with him <hes> but at this point I'm I am not actively involved in that cooking though so I <hes> do offer myself as a sounding board sometimes a skeptic <hes> and to your point I continually <hes> pound particularly on Jordan's the Fox the manifesto dude right. This pin headed shit. I can follow <hes> but <hes> you know the rest of the world is not going to sit down and listen into three hours of Daniel and Jordan. Try to figure out what the hell all that mean. Where's my three minute explainer video yeah. Oh you know being a boomer. I'm not quite so okay. Short attention span is that whereas my <hes> sixteen pages written manifest outright <hes> in fact another early one of the very earliest emancipation mance patient party members <hes> and gain be people <hes> Brent Weinstein a guy who from evergreen state <hes> he summed it up very nicely <hes> when we were struggling with why the hell can't we launch a political party and he said we are all Thomas Jefferson's. We need to recruit some Ben Franklin's Klutz. I'm not sure I know the context of that. Maybe can you and your joke that it's okay well. It's it's not it's not exactly a joke but it's more of an insight in the US <hes> founding fathers Thomas Jefferson James Madison were these great thinkers <hes> at great writers <hes>. I fortunately put Madison at the highest water even though he's less well known than others he's basically the one that wrote the US Constitution James Matt Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence <hes> to the greatest documents ever written <hes> by by human beings but both of them were retiring intellectual introspective people and the revolution never would have happened if it hadn't been for gregarious this network errors in communicators like Ben Franklin the polymath of the first water one of the world's greatest scientists <hes> a publicist assist writer a womanizer prodigious proportions <hes> he was the ambassador of the United States to France helped bring France in as the ally which actually secured our independence so ben Franklin was the activists that made it happen. He wasn't a by any means just a thinker <hes> so that was what it meant we had great thinking but we didn't have communicators and activists you know I'm fascinated by this this different generations and how they're approaching these problems and you brought up that one point about millennials being completely disinterested in the political party aspect and my inside on that would be they'd be more interested if they had a direct say say and don't want representative democracy anymore don't feel like they get their needs met or their their desires met that way. What did you find about. It seems like you you guys abandoned the game beefing and focused on the messaging that would actually appeal to them more <hes> but what did you find about you know from your perspective better ways as to connect with them rather than going this political party route. Yes so just to clarify. We didn't abandon game. Be We got abandoned. The emancipation party right and instead instead <hes> went with game be which is <hes> that is multilevel in yen down to the lowest level we always we said that it had to be a network of network of networks at every scale right and so <hes> one of things found from <hes> a talking talking with many millennials including some <hes> really really smart ones is that <hes> more more so than boomers they were interested in doing things in their local local communities right <hes> you know they were hands on <hes>. West theoretical <hes> and to your point <hes> generally speaking <hes> not very interested in the idea of formal representations <hes> and which I'll give you a little sidebar bar here <hes> I came to a similar view later and you may not know this but I have done a fair amount of writing on the topic of liquid democracy really yes. That's a fact document. <hes> introduction to liquid democracy on medium is now. I think the third or fourth <hes> <hes> highest ranked Google retrievable when you type in liquid democracy <hes> enter and I don't know what liquid democracy is by now get. It's it's an idea of delegating democracy where every person has a series of proxies which they pass off the people they trust more than themselves on given issues but they can always retrieve reverse proxies and cast a vote themselves if they want to and <hes> while at this point liquid democracy is still conceptually too hard hard for most people to understand <hes> it does resonate in his congruent with this idea that millennials do not like top down rigid structures <hes> such ask. I Pat past the post representative democracy and so while we have not formally merged. I can say we but <hes> the San Diego faction hasn't <hes> <hes> formerly merged liquid democracy into their <hes> new prescription for James Bay. It's certainly something they think about a no. That's out there as an alternative. Turn it way it's more likely to be accessible to <hes> millennials and basically anybody who's fed up with status quo so you've it. It seems like you've been kind of silent in this conversation up till recently when you started your podcast kind of jumped in a bit more on the public end of the conversation what what has caused you to want to participate more in a on that level and what he hoped to bring the table. I it's interesting. The podcast idea was more or less independent of <hes> game be <hes> I spent two thousand eighteen and twenty seventeen writing essays which got some decent level of attention engine but I will say I am naturally not a good writer. I struggle with it. You know to write a decent <hes> <hes> twenty two hundred word essay take me weeks right and I was bitching about this at the dinner around Christmas time with my family and my daughter said bad bad you may not be a great writer but you sure are a good talker and <hes> she said you should have a podcast right and that planet the seed. Did you know Christmas time twenty eighteen and I had some intentional downtime for a month in the spring of two thousand nineteen and during that time I said fucking where I could do a podcast. I listened to some of the other leading podcast. I said not only can I do a podcast but I can do a podcast at least as good as any of these other are leading podcasters right and I bet it would be fun and so I did. I am a planner. Having a person involved with the launch of seventeen venture start ups <hes> as either a principal a invest early early investor director advisor. I know what it takes to make something work so I spent you know several months studying how you built a podcast and I concluded that there were no insurmountable obstacles and I did a couple of I did <hes> the two tests <hes> interviews episodes make sure that I wasn't a completely inept at it now. The first two weren't great but they were good enough to convince me that would natural all learning curve. I would <hes> be as good as I thought I'd be which is fucking good right eventually and I'd say I'm not there yet but I'm I'm a good but not yet at fucking good and but I expect by the end of the year. I'll be really fucking guts. He says immodestly right <HES> and by the way for people. That's the gym. Rut that show out there podcast. I got to put a plug in there to our podcast on the evolution of society a <music> a spectrum would do you see as the kind of really major emerging patterns right now <hes> that kind of hint at what is to come so. Where do you think that's Society's going right now because it's changing obviously in which direction all right that's a great question. I would offer a much more more detailed version of this I would point people to my medium essay in search of the fifth attractor <hes> and that while while basically based on a talk I gave at twenty fourteen two thousand fifteen little obsolete but still <hes> the most comprehensive version of my view of what's going on and what could go on <hes> so here's what I believe is that from complexity science <hes> I take the view that a given society -IETY as we call it basin attraction whole series of forces and organizations and signaling networks that coherently hold the system more more or less together think of it as like a marble in a bowl and the bowl is always being shaken by events both internal external marbles always moving around but it stays inside the bowl however <hes> from time to time a big shakes occur and the marble goes flying out of the ball right and I think she tenant of the thinking that myself and many other people in our circle of been doing over the last ten years is that the shakes her getting bigger at the sides of the ball or getting lower actually not doing the old in the things like <hes> you know the depletion of the ecosystem right. Nothing's things spurs revolution like food shortages right and we are not far from massive shoot shortages in a climatic fluctuation combined with an economic fluctuation as an example of how the sides the bowl in a co evolutionary sense. I have got lower and it's quite possible that the marble will go flying flying out okay so now what happens in the marble comes flying out in complexity science viewed Leeson my version of a complexity science view there are other incipient basins of attraction out there <hes> which already have some actors <hes> working in them <hes> or you're planning for that and to give you an example of the <hes> of some other attractors which I believe are indeed out there. <hes> one is what I label neo-fascism and I think the most clean example of that despite despite claiming to be communists is China right. They really fascist ashes right there nationalism plus dictatorship plus capitalism <hes> in a very ugly <hes> combination however over one that term at least can be sold as working. It's produced an economic miracle produce stability in a country that <hes> for thousands of years has been wracked periodically by massive chaos so neo-fascism is an attractor and then we have other <hes> smaller neo-fascists out there like <hes> who who is a good example <hes> and and the current <hes> shape of Russia <hes> another tractor I would call neo dark ages <hes> <hes> which <hes> all the various forms of religious fanaticism fall into <hes> whether it's ultra Orthodox Judaism whether it's <hes> <hes> Islamicist Islam <hes> whether it's the more radical Christian identities <hes> in the United States mind. They're all equally bad and all equally the same thing which is why wishing for the return to theocracy <hes> and at and truthfully. There's a lot of people out there that want that so that attractor exists is right and in under chaos we could see the marble landing in <hes> and Neo Dark Ages horrible <hes> third bat attractor <hes> I I call neo feudalism <hes> which is to my view <hes> what will you debt at if <hes> radical libertarianism were to have its it's way <hes> Koch Brothers <hes> Peter Thiel those people right <hes> where money becomes everything becomes a hierarchical structure based based on wealth <hes> with the power of modern money management <hes> wealth is gonNA become much more tied in generational and we're GONNA end up with a futile structure <hes> were and particularly as advanced. Ai Comes in <hes> should advanced ai be captured by capital rather than shared <hes> <hes> equally by the the common wheel US <hes> they will lock in they could lock in a neo feudal at state or where all driven to the edge of survival while a tiny Hainanese <hes> fraction of one percent lorded over everybody and another ten percent are the equivalent of the knights of the late Middle Ages <hes> who produce feudalism awesome and then the fourth attractor bad attractor is the general one of chaos right <hes> one could imagine <hes> some bad combination of events since <hes> food famine loss you know let's say of a solar flare that knocks out power and <hes> you know number combination things that just break down the state rapidly you know our advanced society is hierarchical many many levels you think of the levels from <hes> mining sand <hes> sued the chip in your IFA right there are many many many levels of emerging technology <hes> and the most vulnerable of which is the electrical grid right <hes> and so of chaos starts to break out in an advanced country the first thing the many things will go but if the grid goes everything goes very very rapidly we can have a ninety percent die off in <hes> much of the advanced world probably not in the US because we are so overly productive and sued you'd even if we didn't have fertilizer us to produce enough food for itself but in many other countries <hes> there would be a massive die off. US probably fifty percent dial <hes> so the chaos attractor certainly exists so those are the four <hes> that I say <hes> are out there <hes> so we have <hes> neo-fascism Chisolm in the form of China and Russia <hes> we have neo dark ages in the form of the various religious fanatics of all sorts of the Hindus in there too rush on a fanatic Hindus out there. I consider them all equally bad you know. I have no dog at any fight for any religion all Hornet by opinion and and if they had their way many of them more extreme members of them at least love the theocracy <hes> neo feudalism <hes> radical unhinged libertarianism chaos and so the fifth tractor is what we need to build a new social operating system and again a social operating system is many many pieces including signaling systems the coherently hold together as a new bowl the hold the marble in the face of the inevitable <music> jiggling of any high scale system and that's what I hope people will built at n that essay. I lay out some of the ideas what needs to be built. I don't prescribe what the solutions are. <hes> though I do say that <hes> <hes> it has to be comprehensive and here are some of the things that you might think about and that's what I think of the San Diego <hes> <hes> tendency of gained be being is a good faith attempt to build the fifth attractor <hes> whether whether it's the right fit the tractor. I do not yet know <hes> I hope there are other people experimenting with the operating system of the future so that when the marble flies out of the bowl and it will that has a better place to land then the forbade attractors so that's my view what's going on. I love to dive in a little more to the fifth detractor but this is actually kind of interesting how relevant this specific conversation is to us in the last couple of weeks because we have been having this conversation about what a collapse scenario looks like and you know even just yesterday we were talking about a bunch of people coming back from Joe. Joe Brewers Lots Workshop Collapse Workshop in Costa Rica and how some of the people that attended that event had this feeling of like just grief grief sadness. You know how do I deal with this. Fuck fat man should not go there. It's so pisses me off assholes right going to grief and depression place is Horse Shit. Maybe you have to go there for three days <hes> but then you need to get mad right and and turn it around say what the hell you know. Don't just sit there and moat do something well this is that's an interesting interesting organized. That's an interesting point. That WanNa make is a lot of people that are kind of predicting this complex. Systems futures like collapse scenario. Kind of stuff are predicting thing what happens when you combine all of these events and there's the outcome but they're not necessarily talking about. What do people do to strategize to come out of that situation if it does happen it's just just like oats. Inevitable were powerless. Nothing can be done you know this is the collapse of human civilization and no one's talking about like you know we're talking about the marble analogy that that kind of tip and then the recovery move like what do we do to recover how readjusting and playing a role in our own evolution so you know that said. I'd love to hear more about the fifth attractor and maybe what you think is relevant in this sort of self recovery tendency that humans and nature have. I just wanted to interject a little bit because I think we've been talking talking about recovery and sustainability and trying to find ways to make the current system work for a very long time many decades and I think it's becoming quite obvious that that's just not going to work anymore and we need to <hes> well. We need to plan for a scenario where the marble does fly out of the bowl the hell do we do then and that's what I'm saying is like what what do we do to actually recover and there are many levels and you know. I've been thinking about <hes> collapsing survival Azam for I don't the oath forty years right and a lot of people are <hes> unsophisticated thinkers about this and <hes> again. We'll take our complexity exited science perspective. One of the things we find is in most complex social systems distribution of magnitude of events are our power law distributed <hes> which is which means that they're not bell curves they have very fat tails way more extreme of events <hes> than and you would predict from gallician or Belco type distribution <hes> and supplies to things like casualties in war movements in stock prices sizes of cities life span of corporations. It's amazing <hes> and this is one of the cutting edge areas and <hes> complexity science. Why is it that so many complex social phenomena are power law distributed and so my first and most important take is that collapse is power or law distributed <hes> so if you think that all collapse is to utter chaos. You're almost certainly wrong to utter. Chaos has a larger probability than cousy distribution would say right because if we're in our current world a galaxy and distribution of say you know what's happened in the last fifty fifty years would say it's almost impossible to have a full collapse but a power law distribution might tell you there's a one percent chance of a complete collapse of everything and so I have to look at <hes> recovery resilience and Survival Azam as against an ensemble of scenarios right power law distributed from a relatively modest but still big enough one for the marble to fly out of the bowl to utter and in complete chaos where most urban people will end up as Jerky cooked over a smoking tires right <hes> that's certainly a fought civility right <hes> and however because of the fact that it's instable distribution fortunately the less severe <hes> scenarios are are the more likely wants right so again. That's another reason not to get super depressed right. Probably Ninety nine percent of the people on Earth are not going to die so it might be the case I but we might be a scenario where ten percent or twenty or fifty percents <hes> all of which are survivable ninety nine percent yet survival survival in the very long term but I'm not sure I really WANNA waste my time planning for that one as an exemplar to punctuate the idea of <hes> how extreme things he's could be <hes> we all know that the earth was hit by a <hes> 10-kilometer-wide asteroid about sixty six million years ago <hes> that wiped <unk> out the dinosaurs and a bunch more <hes> fifty percent of life in the ocean. It's Adra and I tell people. Don't bother planning for that scenario. Just put your head between between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye. 'cause it's your dot right. <hes> if you happen to survive the initial firestorm civilization worth living in ain't gonNA recover anytime soon <hes> and and so basically you have to plan your resiliency and your recovery against a plausible Edison Arias and you know so and not over <hes> bill because it costs too much right <hes> you know to to to build a recovery and survival mechanism for the ninety nine th percentile <hes> is more than I'm willing to contemplate doing and <hes> on the other hand I I believe it quite likely that we will have a <hes> collapse of some sort and so it makes a lot of sense to prepare and <hes> my own preparation is thirty years ago. I bought a farm in a very remote place. That's at the top of the watershed. <hes> that has good agricultural soil has lots of hardwood and is embedded in a very good intact community of people and <hes>. I will say at the the time I had assessed. I was how old at that time thirty five I had assessed that there was maybe a two percent of a major <hes> social collapse in in my lifetime I'm and <hes> while I mostly bought this property for recreational purposes if do a little bit to make it resilient and <hes> you know a survival <hes> stronghold for <hes> for that two percent chance now interestingly thirty percent thirty years later or I'm now sixty five and so my life expectancy has gone from fifty years to twenty years I have nonetheless raised the probability of a catastrophic collapse from two percent the twenty percents <hes> so the rate per year has gone up even more than that <hes> and hands best at a bit more and making the <hes> yeah this <hes> stronghold stronger and more capability of <hes> surviving long enough <hes> to be able to meet the rising wave. Abe is the world recovers and I'd Say I can now survive you know a twenty year inflection something like that <hes> but probably not certainly certainly not a thousand year inflections <hes> and so I would suggest that those who are <hes> forward thinking <hes> should be thinking about out <hes> what they do if the if the shit really does hit the fan and to what extent to what degree and but it has to be congruent with their means right <hes> and and they're means can be greater if they pull their me. We'll say for instance. A part of the <hes> San Diego tendency of game be is to be thinking about <hes> <hes> building gain be at the level of twenty five hundred people immunities at least as far as I understand it <hes> that would be a remote from urban areas and would have an advocate ability to survive some level of inflection and I would say that's a good thing yeah. I think it's really useful to look at a <hes> previous collapses that have happened because you know historically even in recent history. We have examples to pull from for example. I grew up in Soviet Union collapsed ops and <hes> there was a lot of those kinds of different detractors that you're talking about. <hes> actually played out in Soviet Union so for the first couple of years it was this chaos and anarchy and there was no government to speak off and <hes> there was kind of just all kinds of different things going wrong and and then there was some sort of a mob emerged and it was the new feudalism you could say where a lot of people got extremely rich but most people just were horribly broke and there was starvation and all sorts of things and then <hes> you know over time this new <hes> <unk> neo-fascism emerge that is currently happening in Russia so and also the <hes> the religious extremism has increased without simultaneously so it's not like one of those things happens a lot of the time it's an interplay of multiple of these things competing for <hes> <hes> their share yep absolutely and they're better than each other right. neo-fascism and Russia has the much I don't I I saw I'm sure it's tactical you know. Putin hisself is aligned with the Orthodox hierarchy right <hes>. It's hard to believe that Putin believes any of that Horse Shit but <hes> he finds it useful all right and so <hes> religious fanaticism in Russia is in somehow <hes> inter interwoven and incorporated in Nia neo-fascist and that's what's going to happen and all these systems are not going to be pure plays at least not initial <hes> and I will say that Mike I'm glad you brought that example up because the Russian collapse Soviet collapse <hes> into <hes> The independent CIS initially and then into the Independent States <hes> is at the most mild end of collapse right. <hes> very few people starved that. I don't not sure you know any measurable number poorer people starved to death in the in the Soviet Union <hes> transition to Russia and I use that as a rough metric for how severe <hes> a transition it's and part of that of course is that <hes> the transition was made in the context of only one country the rest of the world <hes> didn't collapse in fact actually move forward. China was moving forward at that time the West was moving forward and the West <hes> could help Russia to a degree <hes> and a dead horse it also exploited Russia to a degree which it did I wish unfortunately in my view lead to Putin as right if we had been in more good faith unless naively trying to push <hes> Neo liberalism on the Russians <hes> Russia might have ended up in a much better place <hes> but a kind of soft collapsed in one country <hes> that led to essentially no deaths from starvation at least <hes> and very few deaths from police state Yup Putin and his France killed a few people. I'm sure but you know nothing like the Marxist Leninist revolutions which we know killed one hundred million people in twentieth century so that's what the baby side of a revolution <hes> the other extreme you might put <hes> the Chimera the extreme but another step `bout come here rouge right which killed twenty percent of their population. <hes> you know <hes> pretty crazy <hes> and we can get of course quite a bit a org bit worse than that yeah of course when it happens globally <hes> they're multiple systems that are upholding each other in one thing starts collapsing and another thing collapses on the new triggers five other things to collapse so it's a whole different magnitude of events exactly whether you say triggers five other this is for the complex systems modeling gets into it <hes> so let's say one thing gets triggered. Let's say a truly massive financial collapse that makes the two thousand eight two thousand thousand nine paying look like a picnic right <hes> by itself. It's just abstract symbols. No wealth is destroyed. I love to point this out that people money is an abstraction traction. Money is not factories. Money is not skills. Money is not a minds money is not bulldozers. Money is just an abstraction so we completely <hes> destroy our financial system in our monetary system <hes> and replace it with another one in in theory absolutely nothing would be lost however we also know that massive perturbations of that sort can produce all kinds of second order effects right. <HES> and those second order effects could could destroy factories could destroy communication lines could produce massive rioting across the globe as everybody's money disappears <hes>. You you know when super hackers decide to take down the banking system at the same time and as I said to my my and might take down several pieces of the supporting apparatus Rattus to my mind. The one to watch is the grid. If the grid gets taken down then we propagate out too much more <hes> major <hes> fall much further along the grid holds together <hes> or at least most the grit holds together enough of it that we can re <hes> can reach the grid back together in a year or two <hes> than advanced civilization can require a can recover in that five to twenty year timeframe. If we lose the grid for once and for all it may be a long while before we come back backs so what we have to think about <hes> propagation from one system failure to another to another and cascade of systems failures which then summed across the mall equals the depth of the collapse and we can do some things to make the grid for instance more resilient <hes> ah the movement to decentralize electrical power for instance is a huge thanks <hes> community solar community generation <hes> even if it's less the cost of fact that makes buys a tremendous amount of resilience you know let's. Say City of Stanton Virginia had its own <hes> generation capacity acidy with solar and water etc <hes> and that did forty percent of its electric electricity and the event of a you know a grade <hes> five centimeters shit storm we could just disconnect ourselves on the grid and operated forty percent of the electricity that we used to have and truth matter is what the fat Domin Lazy American lifestyle <hes> we could get by <hes> wonderfully on forty percent of you. Actress City will use the consumer <hes> and so <hes> strategies disease like that would make <hes> places considerably more resilient and then on the <hes> on the more macro scale. It's my mind a huge huge scandal that the advanced countries have not invested in redundancy for the major components of the grid as it is today for instance the transformers <hes> there's probably a <hes> half of one percent per year chance that assault solar flare of sufficient magnitude <hes> will maybe as little as point two percent per year but it's no less than that a solar flare of the magnitude of the Carrington event <hes> look it up when that occurred a giant solar flare occurred right before the Modern Age Carrington event eighteen fifty nine a <hes> truly massive <hes> solar floor flair and magnetic storm <hes> happen there was so powerful that telegraph operators which is our most technology advanced technology of the day <hes> few of them were killed by giant electrical surges that came along the transmission lines fires were started all over the place along transmission lights lights. It's estimated that if that would have fried every piece of electrical equipment that was <hes> tax to the grid today would have blown the grid out would have exploded all the transformers I and astronomers estimate that about one in front one <HES> <hes> every five hundred years such a thing occurred so <hes> point two percent per year her <hes> twenty percent her century that a Carrington event solar flare would occur would not cost all that much to build redundancy into the rid of unconnected components and that's the key. You must have the discipline to invest call it one hundred billion dollars. I e one year's cost the various you you ask external wars <hes> in redundant transformers <hes> generators etc.. They're not connected anything <hes> so then the event that flare a buzz destroy everything that's connected. We can reattach these components gradually over a couple of years. Bring the grid back <hes> so <hes> you know there's there's an example live where even nation state thinking could be <hes> far more resilient than it is today and by the way that would actually work in civil collapsed. The structure of the grid is well goes. Redundant components make the journey back to electrical world but faster so what are some of the other important factors actors to think about for resilience. Let's say on a community level. We'll talk about electricity <hes> food of course if a water actually is the next one right <hes> and this is where people need to think really hard about their infrastructure <hes> some water systems are pressure driven <hes> where the water source is much higher than the city. New York City for instance as a pressure driven water system system so even if it lost electricity <hes> it would <hes> still have water <hes> for a while at least <hes> other cities <hes> are not and they have to have electricity and plenty of it <hes> to pump their water and also to treat their New York is actually a pretty lucky in that its water resources sources very clean and they don't have to do any treatment of their water in most cases <hes> but many many many cities <hes> <hes> in the United States and around the world the water come <hes> <hes> downstream watery or think of Norrland's right they get their water at the Goddamn Mississippi River with a seventy five million people pissing and shitting ended up stream right <hes> A- and of course it's flat and they don't have any pressure to push their water <hes> so <hes> New Orleans whether more extreme examples <hes> without electricity either water system dies instantly and without water humans die within three days right <hes> so every community should look at their water system the NFL <hes> geographic geographically <hes> geometrically such that you absolutely need a lot of power than you better builds highly redundant power supply. That's disconnected from the grid. <hes> that sufficient to drive your water system whose of your water system goes down. SOBA collapse will ensue in twenty four route seventy two hours people be keeling over dead and of course there's the second order effects <hes> where if your water is untreated or if it's not pumped properly disease breeds and then a lot of people die that way. Yep Yep so we get you one way or the other either you die of thirst. I or you die of disease right. <hes> then the next circle out of course is food right. <HES> and that is why I would not want to be in a million impersonator above city when a medium size to large fluctuations occur and you know the typical large American city has <hes> forty eight forty eight hours supply of food within the city limits <hes> which is shocking to me right <hes> but apparently is true through <hes> in places. I live in Santa Fe New Mexico for ten years and apparently they're the numbers even last this at the very end of the food distribution <music> scheme now there are larger depots of food in the United States in particular being the Saudi Arabia of food we have vast supplies of grains and <hes> <hes> <hes> livestock animals living out in the hinterlands that represent <hes> at least many months worth of food available <hes> but as far as I know there's no plan Dan to mobilize that food and bring it to the city in time so if you think the big ones come and get the fuck out of cities of <hes> million plus cost probably five hundred thousand plus and get out to a place closer to food at the planning level every city ought to have a task force and one that has is real authority and some budget that says if the shit really hits the fan how quickly in the US and in parts of Western Europe like France which are pretty close agriculturally agriculture. Lee Self sufficient that and of course a lot of eastern Europe is economically. It's agriculturally self sufficient at least the survival level <hes> if if not the <hes> middle class level and should have a plan. How do we stitch the food in the countryside to the to our city in the vent above <hes> say a level six excursion yeah. It's <hes> it's interesting. I remember growing up in Soviet Union during the collapse and we actually <hes> lived in the countryside and we had our own garden and we had our own animals that we raise for food and there were several years where where you walk into a store and there's literally nothing on the shelves or they might have one thing like oh today they brought in a supply of bread or they brought in the supply of onions that are kind of half off rotting and you don't really get much choice over what you get and it was particularly bad in the cities because we lived about an hour away from Moscow and my dad worked in Moscow. Go so you go into a store in Moscow and it's just there's nothing there and I don't think yeah we didn't have that many deaths from starvation but there were a lot of second order effects. A lot of alcoholism suicides <hes> drug use just people were extremely depressed. <hes> because life life was terrible and in the countryside it was a lot better yep. That's a love that there's an empirical data point that reinforces my theoretical view always like to find those right right that <hes> <hes> in a middle tier collapsed life will be better in the countryside and so two degree you can have some arrangements with with people in the countryside and <hes> you know if you become two-thirds convinced the collapses about to happen. Get the fuck out of the big cities right because collapse happens. You won't be able to get out yeah because everybody will be trying to get out exactly right <hes> and so there are basically there's your hierarchy right <hes> and you know. I will add this as they <hes> good American Second Amendment Person. <hes> you know make sure you have some guns right here in the city <hes> because you may have to fight your way out or you may have to fight your way to your <hes> to your rural retreat <hes> and your role retreat obviously needs to be sufficiently. <hes> <hes> <hes> <hes> well armed to defend itself though I would say in if you are able to really think ahead like I have were embedded in a community that is you know fairly large and is very capable with guns and so it'd be a community defense of our own periphery which is about four hundred fifty square miles <hes> so which case this point protection is less important at least initially then collective <hes> self defense in the events in the event of say a magnitude seven or eight eight <hes> social collapse where are indeed gangs of criminals and small-scale warlords etcetera <hes> and so one must think about that and I know that's politically incorrect on some correct thinking people but hey those are the people that are turned into jerky smoked over burning burning tyres <hes> so really want to be comprehensive and thinking about your own <hes> your own and your group and your communities redundancy make sure not only do you have enough <hes> weaponry but you know how to use it. You have things like a tactical radios etc to be able to form a local militia. Protect your community yeah yeah interestingly enough. One of the things that <hes> was an advantage of being in Russia is that things were fairly low tech at the time so actually being being less technologically advanced was a good thing because things there were things that <hes> ran on batteries like radios there were a lot of tools that Ra manual and non digital. They didn't require any kind of like being hooked up to. Wi Fi or anything like that you know. They just worked independently so yeah a lot of that kind of old school you know rush attack that that was built like a tank came in extremely useful yeah the old. Belarus tractors right of those things you can't you can't kill them. They got no electronics at all even a massive soulard stormer. EMP attacks which fries all modern equipment <hes> would not hurt. I don't know Belarus truck tractor. Ambon keep on truckin right <hes> and <hes> <hes> you know it's important to have some of that technology available <hes> or the recovery and you know and every year that goes by we are <hes> become less and less capable of doing that recovery particularly in the advanced just west. Just you know I hate to think about this. Hopefully hopefully this is just goofy scenario but well. The millennials actually go insane if they don't have text-messaging for instance. I don't they become sober for the first time in their lives. I also wrote a another essay on this topic on MM. Cellphones called the hell that I call it <hes> reclaiming our cognitive sovereignty on medium and <hes> I would advise is people in particular. God Damn it but everybody to read that on how <hes> smartphones are unbelievably seductive and <hes> program. Graham you way more than you program them <hes> so I try to get yourself away from that but <hes> device if you get and you don't need to lay out a whole series of ways that you can replicate almost all the functionality that you actually might like the havoc without having one of those little devils in your pocket. Yeah I think it's it's it's become such an integral part of the <hes> cognitive operating system of young people that they actually completely helpless without it like people don't know how to cook without looking up a recipe on their phone. They don't know how to navigate without using Google maps. They don't know how to you know tell time just by looking at the Sun really basic things that you know having grown up where I did. Those are the kinds of things that you learned so love that like my father was great at that and he taught us how to tell time by looking at the Sun. My my dad was idiot savant. He could tell the time within five minutes looking at the sun anytime of the year I would say I've never never got that good but I can tell the time within twenty minutes which is good enough for most practical purposes. <hes> skills like that are are are lost. Perhaps now I do believe that. Humans <music> are relatively resilient and we won't actually have a bunch of zombies walking around like this. The <hes> grid goes down our let's say less severe than the grid is the the Internet going down <hes> which could happen just by hackers by the way <hes> as you guys made no. I actually ran <hes> some of the poor infrastructure for the Internet. <hes> <hes> the domain name system <hes> back in the right at the time of the switch over to the millennium. There was always crazy theories about when the years flipped over all the infrastructure would die and <hes> we were part of the National Critical Infrastructure Task Force. I had people that went to the White House and all that sort of stuff and we'll absolutely nothing happened. <hes> with today's hackers it's possible that it could <hes> that the grid doesn't go down but the Internet goes down hard and then come back for a few months <hes> but I don't believe people become zombies. I believe they'll be Kinda like <hes>. <hes> you know heavy drinkers who stopped drinking all of a sudden go through a a couple of weeks a hell and then they'll be sort of more or less okay they'll. They'll still be left somewhat damaged from the experience. They'll be able to get on with life. I think when the power goes out and you know it's coming back. It's actually a lot of people feel like it's vacation. You know the Wifi goes off out. It's like I can't go on my phone. I can't go on my computer so people actually have conversations nations and they they feel like it's quite a nice little break and certainly I would encourage that hugely and again <hes> the game be ethos news is to not depend only on weak links. <hes> weak links are weak links occasionally. You can build strong links over time <hes> online but it's the exception not the rule face to face you build strong links more or less instantly. That's what we do right. We are apes with close right. This cognitive symbolic like thing is very late in the day and Berry relatively light in our actual conscious cognition while things I've learned in my <hes>. How many years now is it five ear foray into cognitive science. Cognitive neuroscience is how late and how relatively shallow symbolic cognition is relative to the other part so get together with people find your people <hes> find an excuse to get together face to face and anyone pulls her phone out and start dealing with smack him upside the head and say that she had anal out right. We're here to interact human to human and not <hes> gets seduced by these stupid little device on that note. I think unless you've got any other questions. Russians we can kind of wrap up here well just is there anything else that we need to talk about to wrap up tied up in a tentative bow at least take. We hit on a lot of interesting things. <hes> you know I would say that this is a time when we should to those of us who are awake awake and I'm not gonNA use the woke her. That's Horse Shit but through understand what's going on or trying to reach out and try to hook up with other folks. I think good thoughts read good thinkers <hes> and <hes>. I hope the game be San Diego. Tendency will come forth with a manifesto sometime relatively soon and we'll see if that can serve as a catalyst for what comes next Jim. Thanks for joining us. This has been been fun really fun already guys. There's been fun talked later by my all right. That's it for this episode with Jim. Root for all the links in show notes from this episode. Go Go to future thinkers dot org slash one zero five get our fifty page guide on adapting to the future sign up at future thinks that org slash Sino upgrade your mental operating system increase your personal sovereignty and game deeper self knowledge with our forces and personal evolution register now at forces dot future thinkers dot org.

United States Russia San Diego Jordan Soviet Union Emancipation Party France Jordan Hall Daniel Schwammberger Santa Fe Institute Party writer China India representative China James Matt Thomas Jefferson Jim Rut
Show 360: Feat Jazz Pianist Fred Hersch and Guest Host Yuga Cohler

From the Top with Host Christopher O'Riley

1:00:34 hr | 2 years ago

Show 360: Feat Jazz Pianist Fred Hersch and Guest Host Yuga Cohler

"Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from internet essentials from Comcast. Connecting more than six million low income people to low cost high speed internet at home. So students are ready for homework class graduation and more. Now, they're ready for anything high and thanks for downloading from the Top's podcast on conductor. Yuga colour an alum of the show. And I had the honour of coming back as a guest host. It was an incredible experience to host the show especially thirteen years after I was first on it to see how far I had come. But also to get the experience these amazing young musicians who are on the show today. There was brilliant. Young seventeen year old pianist from Boston who showed how music can serve the cause of social Justice. There was a really bubbly thirteen year old violinist. And then there was also the incredible guest artists on the show jazz pianist red Hirsch, one of the great jazz musicians working today who has an equally extraordinary life. Story that is informed his compositions and its performance. So enjoy the show and thanks for listening. From NPR, Tom, celebrating the power of music in the hands of America's. Today's one of our country's visionary. Young conductors Colo. Welcome. It's an incredible thing for me to be hosting from the top today. I was fourteen years old and an oboe west the first time, I was on the show. I still remember it like it was yesterday. It was such an exhilarating experience being able to perform for such a large audience. Now, I've gone to Juilliard I've become an orchestral conductor, and I end the music director of the Ridgefield Symphony Orchestra. And so here we are today. At from the Top's home New England conservatories Jordan hall in Boston, a special thanks to the Massachusetts office of travel and tourism for helping to make today show possible. Now as an artist I'm always interested in exploring the parts of our humanity that we share that bring us together. One of the projects I'm known for is called Gaito van and orchestral concert that compares the music of Beethoven and Kanye west to artists that have more in common than you might think. And that's one of the themes running through today's show finding common ground. Whether that's in the identities, the John rose or the works of these wonderful musicians. Our guest artist Fred Hersch has lived this bridging many communities musical and otherwise. Now, most of you will know Fred as one of the great. Living jazz pianists, but he's also a groundbreaking composer of what can only be described as Fred Hersch music. He'll be joining our young musicians to perform one of his works. But he'll also perform something from the classical canon and speaking of the classical canon, let's get on with our show, ladies and gentlemen. Please welcome. Our first artist from New York City fourteen year old violinist INA Quang who. Welcome. Tell you're going to play Jinyan I will be playing the second of four pieces called a Pasha auto by Josef Suk, and we also want to welcome your collaborative pianist another from the top Lum Jing's, Ron Zang. All right, whenever you're ready. Take it from the top. Long. Fourteen from New York City from Joseph Suk, spor pieces for violin, piano. She was accompanied by from the top Jing Shawn's, I've gotten to know you over the past couple of days, I have to say that performance really who you are just a fireball energy. You're all ready to go this fantastic. And got to know each other. I realized that one of the things we have in common is our hodgepodge of ethnicities kind of going on. I'm half, Japanese and half Jewish. Tell everyone about your background. My mom is Japanese and my dad is half French and half yet. So that makes me half Japanese quarter French quarter of yet in AMIS, and I was born in the United States. So I have three nationalities. And we got to speak some Japanese backstage, but you also speak French, right and English. Trialing? Awesome. Now giving that very diverse background multi-national. Background. It's no surprise that you traveled to Geneva for the famous menu in competition. Competed in be Hootie menu in international violin competition, which is one of the most competitive in the world. She's fourteen years old. No biggie. But despite all that you're shocked to make it to the second round that well there's three rounds in this competition and in the first round, well, an accident happened. So I was playing my program. This was the last piece and the piece today is actually the second of the four, but in this competition, they require the third and fourth by the same composer, Josef Suk and the fourth movement about the last twenty seconds of the piece his about this much music left on the page, my fingers slipped, and I actually stopped for a brief moment. And that really made me doubt. Whether I would go to the second round because the first round they eliminate a lot of people, of course. But despite that mistake, which maybe not a lot of people noticed you went on to do really, well, you came in fifth place. So how are you able to rebound off of an experience like that? Well, I think what's really important is. Everybody can make this can happen to anybody. But it's how you recover. I think you want to you don't want everybody to know that it happened. Although most people can hear it. But you wanna just go on like nothing happened and try to make the time you stop as little as possible and just go on and finish the show Moscone show must go on. You're such a trooper. You know, I'm sure that I'm not sure, but I bet not a lot of people the mistake. I've had only audible your ears. But like, I said you're forms. So extraordinary. It's no surprise you got fifth place in that competition. Congratulations. And thank you for joining us today in key for having me. Long. Fourteen from New York. Online video series featuring music videos with our young musicians performing with artists from across the musical spectrum. Subscribe to our YouTube page YouTube slash from the top over the last thirteen years from the top and the Jack kente cook foundation have awarded over two and a half million dollars in scholarships to talented young musicians who have financial need. We still have more to give go to from the top dot org to learn more Yuga, thanks, JoAnne. Next up is a seventeen year old pianist from neighboring chestnut hill, Massachusetts, his name is Avak Sarkar and hill performed the first movement of Bela Bartok's, piano sonata. The first of our Keno. Performed by some chestnut hill, Massachusetts, frankly disturbing, but yet excellent performance that was really bombastic. Thank you. And I don't mean to brag on behalf advocate got this in one taken the rehearsal. So no problem for him. I love our talk. I can tell that you do too. I recently conducted Bartok's concerto for orchestra actually just last week. And one of the things I really love about Bartok is his use of folk melodies in his case eastern, European folk melodies and how incorporates that into own compositions yourself composer. And it seems like you draw inspiration from non western classical music too. Yeah. It's definitely my whole family is been golly. So I've always been surrounded by any classical music whether that was. Classical singers that my dad was listening to or you know, the Bollywood inspired soundtracks of TV shows, my mom was watching. But I don't think I ever really appreciated the beauty of this music. So once I started getting involved in classical music, obviously, all the music. I was listening to Chopin and Brahms and later twentieth century composers. So when I started composing, those were the composers, I was evaluating imitating. I liked for a while. But then quickly got boring if all the pieces, I was ready. We're just copies of what I've been listening to what had been studying. So that's why I wanted to do something original Crete, something freshman music. So that's what I decided to start using Indian classical influences my works. I mean that makes a lot of sense. I think when you draw from a variety of backgrounds and sources you can come up with something really fresh in innovative. Let's listen to a little bit of your Indian inspired music. Now, that's the Janacek philharmonic in the Czech Republic. Performing the opening of your peace corps v. You can tell just by listening to how the use of the Tam Tam the way the strings play it draws something very special to you in love the rest of the peace. Kind of bouncing off that both musically and otherwise than what is it about your Bengali heritage that so special to you? What do you want express about it? Yeah. Definitely. We'll both my parents are immigrants from India. And I'm also bilingual. So my Indian heritage is always played a really important part in my density. But of course, classical music being a pianist being composer that has also been really integral part of my identity. But I think oftentimes we think of classical music as something western something, that's really acceptable to only very small audience. And so. As a person of color, navigating the world of classical music. This was a challenge that I was facing. And the question that I wanted to answer. How could I reconcile these different parts of my any? So I guess that's what I'm seeking ju like art through my compositions find some kind of common ground between my Indian heritage and my classical training. Absolutely. I think that makes a lot of sense something we need more of this in this world. We're gonna talk more after we hear you're playing this next piece. It's a piano. And luckily, we just happen to have another pianist with us here in Jordan hall, ladies and gentlemen. Please. Welcome the fabulous jazz, pianist, composer and educator. Fred hersch. It's fantastic to have you with us. Fred. Now, you went here to New England conservatory to study jazz. But as a kid before that your studies weren't that much different than the kids on our show. Right. Yes. I was taught fury competition score reading and counterpoint as an elementary school started with classical music, but I always found that it was more fun to make stuff up. So I was very fortunate to find jazz, which is a great language for making things up and. I was very happy to have had the advantage of coming here in the mid seventies. When Gunther Schuller was still running the school was very special place in a special time. And so I feel like I have still have a connection to the classical music world totally and we're going to hear you perform something in the classical vein. Now, can you tell everyone what you an avid are to be performed together. We're going to be playing Uris little piece by Samuel barber from his souvenirs sweet is called the hesitation Tango, great whenever you're ready from the. Avic Sarkar seventeen guest artists perform hesitation tangled from souvenirs by Samuel barber arranged for two pianolas by Arthur gold, and Robert phys, Dale very stylish, very Alam owed performance by the two of you. I really enjoyed it. Avak you and Fred share an interest in activism, and using music effect social change, can you tell us about the benefit concert. You put together and your own musical contribution to it. Yeah. Definitely. So this past January, I organized a benefit concert that raised five thousand dollars for the Boston center for refugee, health and human rights. So the way that I thought of the idea for the project was when I was talking to my grandmother who has refugee from Bangladesh to India during the partition of India. And so one of the things that I noticed in her narrative was the struggles the chiefs to make yourself heard to credo voice for herself. And so as I was thinking about all these things I heard about from the top. Arts leadership grant, which supports projects, that's sort of communities through artistic endeavors. So I applied and I was very lucky to receive the Cran, and I'm very very grateful to from the top for providing the funds that allow me to put together the project, and so the central element of the project was my composition titled from voices in which I tried to combine the musical about drop of string quartet with recordings of interviews with refugees and immigrants from the Boston area. And so this quickly proved to be a talent I spend most of the summer of twenty seventeen posting fliers Craigslist odd, sending emails seeking material that I used for the peace initiatives like these. It's so easy to get lost in all the organizational details, but what really reminded me of why wanted to pursue the project in the first place was remembering my grandmother's story and that the whole purpose. Of doing the concert in the first place was to give refugees this March vice community, even a very very small way space other stories. That's wonderful. I think. Not just the music the musical of putting together piece like that which has multi task elements, but also the concert itself. It sounds like a pretty complex endeavor hats off to you. That's amazing. And Fred you've done, obviously, similar things you live through the fight of the aids crisis in nineteen eighty s New York you were diagnosed with having HIV yourself, and because of all that happened around that time you described becoming an accidental activists. Can you talk about that? Sure. In the eighties early nineties. It was very grim time in New York. Many of my friends were dying. We all felt like how can we be of help? And I took the example of actually very important person in the classical music world. Charles Hamlin who was a concert artist manager, some of the top concert artists in the eighties nineties and founded what became am artists and his partner passed away nineteen ninety two and he walked away from rather lucrative job to start an organization that he called classical action performing arts against aids which raised money for aids services and through house concerts, largely and through artists donating a percentage of their concert fees. I met him. I was so impressed by what he was doing. I said, well, what can I do? I thought about it. And of course, I know played with so many great jazz musicians in New York, I also know engineers and recording studios there. So I enlisted all my friends to put together a benefit album, which we called last night when we were young. It was all ballots, and I thought we're going to get this to a major label, and we're going to sell it. And they're going to give all the money to classical action didn't happen that way. So I said to Charley while we're in the record business, and we got some great publicity for it. And even with one eight hundred number before internet, we raised about one hundred fifty thousand dollars on the sale of album and when the album came out, I figured that. I needed to come out to there were no jazz musicians who are talking about being gay. And there were no performing artists talking about being HIV positive. So I just decided well this. Has fallen in my lap. And if I want to give the message everybody, if you wanna be artist person, you can be you have to be cool with yourself and stop paying the price for being and he kind of large closet. Maybe I can be helpful. And I didn't honestly know how long I had live and here I am twenty five use later while we're lucky to have you. I very much feel privileged to be on stage with two generations of pianist composers who are able to use the music so effectively towards such important causes Fred we're gonna hear more of your story in the second half of the program and AVIC. Thank you so much wonderful playing. Thank you. Avak Sarkar seventeen from nearby chestnut hill, Massachusetts and today's guest artist. Fred hersch. If you like from the top make sure you like us on Facebook. It's easiest way to stay in touch with everything from the top. You'll find daily videos articles photos and a thriving community of fans joined the fun by going to Facebook dot com slash from the top fans. Support for NPR comes from this station and from the Howard in Geraldine Pollinger family foundation, committed to nurturing the development of talented emerging artists and sharing the joy that the performing arts spring to live from the volt general foundation supporting programs that conserve natural resources educate children and promote classical music from the Jack Kent Cooke foundation, providing scholarships to high achieving students with financial need and from Americans for the arts. For men PR. It's from the top celebrating the power of music in the hands of America's kids this week. We're coming to you from our home New England conservatory Jordan hall in Boston. Coming up our guest artist. Fred Hersch, performs one of his own pieces with the young cellist today show our program here in Boston is made possible with support from the Massachusetts office of travel and tourism here again is today's guest host Yuga colour. Thanks, joanne. Joining us now is the Cairo's Cortez from the music institute of Chicago. Joshua brown. Thompson Wang both eighteen violence Julian re eighteen feel and Lydia Ray nineteen cello Joshua's at the Mike Joshua audience. What you'll be playing today, we're going to be playing Mendelssohn string quartet number six and minor and this pieces, and especially dark background tell us a little bit about that. Yes. This piece was written in a really hard time in. Since life. His sister who is really close to just passed away. And this was actually the last piece you would ever right before he died at the age of thirty eight. Cairo court music institute, Chicago. Round thompson. Eighteen in Lydia Ray nineteen cello. This quartet was coached by Rudolfo Vieira, and we want to care violence for loaning Julian this per Bill. We just heard Thompson linear Joan me at the mics that was mazing -gratulations. Well, folks, today's episode is stacked as you know, our first performer was prize winner at the menu in competition. And it turns out the Cairo Cortez won the gold medal in the junior division. This year's extremely prestigious off chamber music competition. Just for some context myself myself went to the fish off competition three times never came close to winning to these folks. But in all seriousness, I learned from you all what it takes to get that level of dedication needed to win a major competition like that. So for instance, Thompson, you'd leave home in California before even graduating high school to work with your teacher in the Chicago area. What was that like live with how does that even work? Yeah. So during my junior year, moved from California, and I had to find a place to live place to go to school. Did find myself a great teacher? And but in the end it worked out, well, it was probably the toughest time of my life. It was tough leaving friends and family in California to go to a totally new environment with people that I for one solid week. And you were in Chicago as well. How did how did you to kind of help each other out? Well, I had a car and he didn't it. So. She was my mother. I'm the resident Cairo's mom, so yeah, it was definitely difficult. I definitely would say that it paid off in the end. But we definitely bonded a lot over that experience of living away from home sort of being on our own not just that Lee in your case in training to get to this level. You've had some setbacks in the form of a major injury. Can you share it about that experience? Yes. And my junior high school, I was practicing and all of a sudden my hands are really Tinguely which is not good and I had major overuse injuries all throughout my body. And we just kept discovering more and more. And that was a really difficult time in my life because. As you're junior. You're usually preparing for college auditions, and I couldn't do that. I couldn't practice. Not just the physical toll though, what was the emotional toll of that? How did you deal with having that injury in operating in the musical world? Definitely really tough. It was really hard to see your friends accomplishing things when you aren't accomplishing things. And I think especially in the classical music world. There's definitely like a stigma surrounding it. We do train ourselves like athletes do practices just as much as athletes do. But when you're injured it's not something that's reported upon. It's not like, oh she's out for the season. You hide it. So I would like long sleeves, and nobody would know that. I was injured I would like ice my ours in the cars after performances and competition. Just like nobody knew that was going through it at the time links. There is no disabled list in classical music, well, Lydia. We're really glad you're back playing cello. So beautifully in your playing it, so brilliant. In fact, we're going to ask. To stay on stage to play a piece with our guest artist. Fred hersch. But we'll say goodbye Thompson. Thank you Thompson. Thompson eighteen studying at England conservative. Podcasts from the top featuring bonus content. Not heard on the radio broadcast are available every week at from the top dot org. Yuga, ladies and gentlemen. Please. Welcome back. Our special guest artist. Fred hersch. Fred, we touched on the fact that you studied classical music as a kid and a very young age, you gain some fame notoriety in your hometown of Cincinnati for winning Cincinnati music scholarship. Associations competition. How old were you in? What was that? Like, I was I was ten years old. And I played the required pieces for the competition. And then there was an optional piece. So I decided to play a piece that I had come posed called a windy night title. And basically, I improvised something and I won the competition. And then there was a concert for all the winners and I played a windy night again. But of course, it's hundred completely different. Oh, this is cool. I can kinda pull the wool over everybody's eyes. And maybe I don't have to practice. Double thirds perfectly. I can figure out a way to have a little more fun. Yeah. It sounds like you could very easily been from the top when you're kid too. And your music. Your music, but also your composed music has a lot of elements, for instance, of Jae Bach. And you talk a lot about his influence on your music. Can you describe that for us? I think Bacchus touchtone for pretty much everybody who plays classical music. I think the way that his influence has manifested itself in my playing is I use a lot of moving independent voices. Lots of contra Parnell things going on. I mean in jazz, piano. This is basically a big drum set with eight note. And but when I'm playing improvised, we that's a little more classical in nature always trying to find different parts that combined together and have a harmonic and rhythmic value. That's awesome. Well, now, we get to hear you perform composition of your own. And hopefully, we'll hear some of that influence, this is duo for cello, piano. Leah Ray the young on today's show has set herself up center states. Join you will you introduce this piece and tell us a little bit about. Yes, it's called Tango, bittersweet and. Fair. Warning, the piano, part is improvised and the cello. Part is not but they DEA plays it so elegantly, you think that she's. Improvising. It. Bitter sweet formed fights. Special guests. Nineteen year old video from the Chicago area job Lydia in. Thank you. Fred, it's an honor to share the stage with you have you on from the top. I've loved watching you work with leeann AVIC, and I hope you've enjoyed absolutely great musicians, and really lovely people. And now as an encore to take us out of the show, we have the privilege of experiencing Fred Hersch loan at the piano. So Fred, what do you feel like playing? Well, the F minor of the Mendelssohn put me in mine of competition by Thelonious monk in the same key. It's called in walked, bud. It was written by monk in tribute to one of the other great jazz pianist, bud Powell and. I just thought it'd be a nice way to go out. This is a real treat. I wanna thank all of our young performers in. Thank you for listening. I'm you colour, and Fred when you're ready. Ticking. From the top Whitman produce, Tim banker and Tom music director Aaron. David Balsam, the production manager is the systems from abbey. Enza state mandates from this week John Escobar technical direction, but Chris Rando damn palace and Dev REI executive directors Gretchen Wilson from the top independent nonprofit organization based in Boston conservatory outstanding young artists inspirationally teachers since forming fast. If you'd like to a pair. Apply online from the top dot org. From the top supported them from the National Endowment for the arts on the web at arts dot gov. Support for NPR comes from this station. And from the Rockefeller Foundation. Promoting the well-being of humanity throughout the world since nineteen thirteen more about Rockefellers work in food, health, power jobs and resilient cities at rock found dot org. From the public welfare foundation committed to advancing Justice and opportunity for people in need, more information public welfare dot org. And from the John D and Catherine T MacArthur foundation, MAC found dot org. Thanks for listening to this podcast. You know, well from the top is on NPR. It's not actually owned by NPR. It's an independent nonprofit company based in Boston in every year. It takes a huge push for us to make the show happened financially. So I ask you to please consider donating to our organization. So that we can bring you joy podcast after podcast go to from the top dot org and click on support.

Fred Hersch Boston New York City Massachusetts NPR Lydia Ray Thompson Wang America Chicago India Comcast John rose Avak Sarkar Cairo director Josef Suk HIV red Hirsch New England conservatories Jor Tom
On Working Smarter to Crush your Goals | Freelancing

The Road To A Billion

19:33 min | Last month

On Working Smarter to Crush your Goals | Freelancing

"Hi, you're listening to the road to a billion podcast. I'm your host step in Georgia since 2011. I've sold over seven hundred million dollars worth of products for both quiet and my own companies. I've also founded or co-founded eight different businesses that have grossed between 7 to 9 figures and revenue today. I focus a lot of my time on teaching training and mentoring the next generation of Freelancers and entrepreneurs and that's why I created the road to a billion a call in radio show style podcast where I answer people's questions on mindset business ownership scaling funnels, waiting in more if you want to submit a question then check out the show notes to learn how or visit me at Stephen Paul George. I subscribe to opt into my email lists and every week you'll get a link to join the live call-in show me and with that being said, let's go ahead and get started. Hey guys, in today's episode. You're going to learn how to avoid the struggle that even a less copywriters face by having this one thing why no one took over the throne in the office and ship Niche when Chris left the industry for a few years why it's important to know how to analyze the funnel and troubleshoot when it's not converting enjoy wage. I don't you have a question for you, but one interesting thing I think people should know that you know with your new the weight loss offer you recently did and you know, you were you had asked me to like take a look at it and some other people take a look at it and then you like shot me like a you know a message after it was launched and you're like, you know, it's not making sales in my like should I just retire like a my fraud and I was so amazing because like I feel the same way if I watch something that doesn't do well either and so I want everyone who watches this and looks at us and says wow, these guys are really good copywriters and I think we are good copywriters. What we should have the the the demons the insecurity never never leaves. Right? And I think I think it's incredibly important to be public about that person. Yeah, right cuz you know how it is. Like even when I was making millions, I don't I don't I don't make millions of dollars a year or several years because I've been dealing with really intense shit and coming back and luckily my ego was not attached to that anymore the way it used to be but I always got so fucking annoyed in our business cuz it's all like Rodger. Of all fucking times, right? It's like you on some and it's always funny people were talking about crushing it and you're promoting their shit and you're like this is twenty cents a click motherfuker. This isn't the worst part people in the past relationship advice based people be getting twenty cents a click and they're bragging and they're like that's really good for us and like who? Okay, that's that's great. Yeah, but at that particular offer directly hard on it and of course it took way longer to get out the doors than we wanted to we tested it and we got zeros. We got like a thousand clicks on our first two thousand place. We got zero sales and I went spiraling as you do because that's what we do is write down a spiral and eventually we figured out that it was a problem with the current page cuz I started digging into the data. I'm like, why are we getting 5% cart conversion why we're getting 5% car conversion? Cuz we usually get 15 to 20 is kind of our normal wage eventually figured that out. So now the card is converting it like 30% now instead of 5, but we're only getting like 1% conversion on the thing and we think it's because of the lead we'll talk about this people are asking how like Rob Was opening lines. Well, this is a case where the opening line isn't hitting the way it needs to because we're watching The Whiskey of data and it's like people are dropping off too quickly. So the next time we're going to be testing is rewriting that way my wife's can help me with that is awesome free copyright for two. That is awesome. Yeah, and but but I love you sharing that and then some people already saying that they appreciate that and but I agree man, I mean, yeah, I just had feedback from a client for something I did that. I thought was really good. And as soon as you it's in the mail space is not like a it's like it's not even testosterone. He was actually really didn't want to do that was like energy and vitality mitochondrial support supplement helps you have like energy and all that and it's like a really great product and I think a lot of copies good but you know, it's covering about 1% which is again like okay, right, but it's like not enough to hit out of the park and walk you can still that. Yeah, exactly and the email me and shared I think you know, he's like, I honestly feel like part of a story cuz I want a story about a kind of older guy dating the young younger woman and the younger woman basically said that you know off Like I like older men, but you're like more like like I have daddy issues, but you remind me more of my grandpa or something like that, which I thought was like a really good line at that could be like but gladly go with it. I miss you. So yeah this point being that yes, I think and and you know, and he pointed out to me is like I think a lot of the guys in my market. They don't want a day the younger woman there like that could be a lot of work. That's like not for me my face. They have like wives they have relationships all this kind of stuff and it was like, oh shit. Yeah. Those are really good points. So I didn't like, you know the way I thought about it was okay. I can I can do it differently in a different angle cuz I got this sort of from a forum like I do right now I show that story but this type of stories but but I think the important thing too is to we all have those moments of like, oh God I suck but it's like then when you come back to reality you're like no, I don't suck. I just need to tweak it like I miss I miss mark on it and I can that's an opportunity now and that's the most important things I think but that was used to be impossible for me. Right? So here's the issue that I ran into because this goes way my brain works cuz I'm a little bit crazy, you know back in the day when I was hitting it really hard literally dead. Re fucking thing. I did for like three or four years every single one first draft killed it every single one. I think I think there was one that didn't for whatever reason I wasn't really but whatever every single one and that was the worst fucking thing that ever could have happened to me because I didn't learn how to work it right? I was like I was like, oh, well, you know like I would just write a letter. I put it out. I'd go to the beach or something and all of a sudden billions of dollars were show up and get that started not happening because marketing got harder like marketing got harder over the last ten years. I couldn't just put something on and have Affiliates come flooding in especially cuz I was in the middle of my my mental stuff. I didn't know how to handle it. I had a couple of offers I didn't go right away and I look at them now and I say a couple of weeks of work, they would have been crushing it. They would have been great, but I just couldn't do it at that point because my ego was so attached as just really one couldn't really quick thing. I think I did wrong in that letter is making it about the younger woman thing instead of making it about competition with younger guys. Yeah love that cuz that's where it is. I did an offer. I did a console with Mike westerdal years ago and it off. Testosterone thing and the hook I gave him was your half the man your father was. All right, and after 9 your father was and it was about the greatest generation and it was about how those were fucking met. Right they wage war. They fought they were stoic they were protectors and what the fuck are you now, right and that's actually one from there, but I really feel like cuz I'm forty-three. I'm not the youngest guy anymore. But that that I even when I saw you coming up right like your this younger guy coming up doing great there. Is that part I mean, it's like bullshit is this and that's that's that's what everybody feels even the eyes of people in the world are going to feel that as your packaging mail and you're losing your vitality and using your bigger display. So that's what you did wrong, you know, millionaire, you know, I know no that's is actually great Insight. I'm like, okay, I'm going to casually write that down as we're talking. You're you're totally right. Yeah, and that's why I didn't bounce that that one off really anybody and to the point of like when you're writing yours and reaching out and and I tend to do that too. I think another thing for people who watch this, you know is dead. We'll reach out to people and have asked for their opinions on copy that I'm writing and I know you do the same thing and I never changes. I mean part of the reason copy of Sardar is valuable not to like the full version which is which is full is. I'm not trying to plug it on this call, but the values of that is like that feedback, right and even on the light version there's a group for the light members where they can give feedback and peer-review, but that is it's so easy to feel like you're on an island as a copywriter you write stuff and you have no idea if it's good or not or you like I think it's good and then the stuff you think is good doesn't go as well as you thought and the stuff that you think isn't that great like crushes it and you're like sitting there. Yeah, like what is happening? But but yeah just having that support network is super important one quick thing on that though is like cuz he might be on the level now where it's the same thing. Nobody wants to tell your shit sucks anymore. Yeah, like I should get to a level where you have a big name and it's like, oh, it's a step in George I later. It must be great, which is why I call people like you or I call people like Carlton or like other guys who I know who are really fucking good have birth. That right or willing to say yeah. Well this part sucks. Okay. It's like it's all right doesn't mean you could just make this process you can fix it. Yeah, that's a really good point actually and and I think about that too. Cuz even with with them back we give them copy accelerator when I try to still be really honest and enroll about it and Justins really good about that. Cuz Justin is not super cognizant of people's feelings. You know, it's true. It'll be like he's like this Parts, you're all inclusive, but it's actually like thank God he does that right? Cuz otherwise if he's just like super, you know, like a raw cheerleader the whole time. Yeah and of exit is super helpful. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So Chris and you have like the you have your offer on on ClickBank blinking the name right now the relationship one item and make it more. I heard that I was I was at the Titans ma'am and last make the virtual which was great cuz I could sit in my basement and play Divinity original sin 2. I would go into a mastermind, which was awesome instead of playing Mario on my on my Nintendo on actually I think yeah. I heard you picked that light off. Part on a good way to get away. Yeah, Emily. Somebody texted me and said hey if your ears are burning here's what I know. That's that's that's such a nice thing. Yeah, it's a really good one. Yeah, that one more mostly running cold traffic to you know back in the day with language desire and much of other ones. We just did he almost pure affiliate traffic and we just had Affiliates come running and and made a lot of money on it. And then we tried jumping out this one. We just couldn't get the Affiliates the same way. I think it's partly just because the affiliate base for the relationship advice Niche isn't what it used to be right? I think it is. It sounds like it's just, you know, maybe it is but I do think that part of it is that when I went away for a while there was really nobody pushing that Niche the same way that I had been for so long cuz I was putting out offers all the time and I was really I had the people that I kind of convinced the following all these ways and I dispatch and I think that kind of caused things to go down as well, but that might just be me thinking I'm more important than I actually am know. It's interesting. We've actually talked about this before in a conversation too though. How like when you left like in their wage Ship like no one really came in took your place and that surprised him right like with like the weight-loss stuff and click bank right now and like research is at the top and then there's proven and left these offers and now every offer owner a business owner. I know. And health is trying to create their new like it's like everyone's trying to pile into it. Right and but like it didn't really happen with relationship stuff as much and why do you think that is I am curious why nobody tried to take off when I entered that and it's the reason that I was able to go from zero to a hundred in my next besides having a PR agent came up to me after I spoke a Jeff Walker's event and say I want to put you on television because like or what like what you're so Charming whatever I'm like, okay cool. I can be Charming onstage sure was I came from Hardcore make money online, right? Like the authors that I wrote earlier in my career were I mean I did the language or Thursday for dinner appointment actually which made a ton of money. I did some kind of power for home one for Chris Fox which made me a lot of money and he made a lot more money than I did on that and a bunch of others, but largely I was doing real estate investor. Stuff and I was doing I am stuff and I did some help stuff. I've never had passion for the health stuff. That would say my abilities up but I came into the relationship marriage and I was like why the fuck is everyone just copying of Eden? Right? Cuz everyone was just copying. I've been paying it was all Craig Clemens very early structuring fantastic. I would never say anything away from him. But this is much earlier in his career and everybody was just doing the exact same formula letter. It wasn't video at all and I came in from I am where things were much more cutting-edge and all of a sudden I was getting you know marketing told me email text the romance back and he was getting several dollars a click when he was used to getting fifty or sixty cents. Right? And so I was able to just kind of blow things up at that point and I think part of the issue was like Jordan Hall is a good friend of mine. He's been doing very very well on that mature ages though. It's largely due to his whole traffic. He has one offer that's in really really well and he was never able to really make another one but he has that one offer that is incredibly well, but Jordans are more reserved characters, right? He's just not going to be as boisterous as I am and laughing That same way so I think there's nobody a lot of them just aren't really marketers their content people. They're people who are passionate about helping people with their relationships and have learned marketing as opposed to being a marketer who has a little niche and said Okay. I want to know what I can sell and then I'm going to create products that are based on what I can sell instead of writing. Here's what I really want people to know right? Like it doesn't matter what you want people to know what matters before I want to buy and have the emotional drive to actually bite. That's my theory on it. I could be wrong know that's really interesting and one more question on that cuz I know Justin has brought this up and I agree with him when it comes to him and I it's like we're both kind of mom who have and entrepreneurs happen to be really get a copy writing and I probably would I think that's a fair assessment. I really do enjoy writing copy when I'm in the zone and when the Muse is singing to me and all that. Do you consider yourself like thefts while you're doing it? Yeah when I'm not putting it off even even today I woke up early so I can write copy for this project put it off for like two hours and then finally for like an hour before this particular episode I started doing it and I'm like, this is so fun job. Why did I just put it off right 2 and 1/2 like doing all these other dumb things? So that never goes away. Sometimes it's like the whole veteran two days, but I'll put it on for a month-and-a-half, right so crazy thoughts when I was curious, you know, are you do you consider yourself the same way you feel like you're an entrepreneur or marketer who happens to be really good at copy or do you consider yourself and your kind of core identity as a copywriter as part of your day and that you're fired either and neither at this point, you know several again for a while. They're all of my self-esteem was built around being a gray copywriter or quote unquote the best copywriter a world-class copywriter Etc partly boss has almost that probably that was whatever these days. I just think of myself as Chris a dad who happens to be pretty good at selling things online and I'm more and that's a better way to be right. Yeah. That is a way to be a human being I had the experience of going from being at the very top or very close to the top two knobs and I had to learn how to adjust from being a big deal to a lot of people too. I thought I disappeared I was surfing Prize when I showed up again and people still knew who I was because I was like, I haven't done in years like what the fuck man, but I think of myself as I think I'm primarily a writer, you know, I've always been a that's kind of what I did and then I eventually figured out that I'm good at combining writing and the art aspect of it The Dramatics I used to do play writing used to do screenwriting things like that and combining that with sales. My dad was bought a hardware sales guy who died a long time ago, but he was very very good at it entrepreneurship. You know years ago, I used to have ideas all the time and I just wanted to create things all the time and I put the last several years. I've kind of been just I'm not driven in the same way. As I used to be. I didn't have any motivation at all for a long time, which was probably off dealing with some really personal stuff and it's slowly coming back. But I've never been one of those guys who thinks entrepreneurship will save the world. I think that's bullshit. I think that's largely people who want to feel really good about making money and not feel good about making money, but don't think you're in direct marketing. You're not really like fucking like changing the world in a positive way. No matter how much you want to tell yourself. You are. I think I'm largely a writer and I happen to have them how to make money off of that. It's very I I can't imagine getting into a project where I wouldn't at least be involved in the copywriting OR at least in the aviation and the brainstorming aspect of it cuz that's my biggest assets. I think nationally are my quick thinking and ideas and then I can be pretty funny on podcast if I need to so little Charming to I think Amber calling the Facebook live that you know how Charming you are in. If you're trying to you know, yeah, that seems like my sister. She's great. I know and if you're still watching I saw your text about tacos this Saturday, but we're going to Vegas on tonight. So that's why I didn't respond a Camaro for tacos. But I love you Amber. That's why you know, I should just not go to Vegas to talk more about or even though I am I know I know I know Tom Thumb dude. So yeah, so I want to get the questions on a second. I mean unless you answer a couple. So the way it works is Ed will pick questions. He'll kind of read them off a little bit then we'll let off some kind of come on live and asked a question provide context and we'll give insights and like, you know, it's not I think I told you it's like it should be really clear. Sometimes I have a really good opinion that I think is really valid sometimes I'm like, oh, you know, I don't know here's what I would do, but it's like we have all the answers of course, but it's fun to just be able to talk through and and use our experience, you know provide unique insights to people so with that, but I know for a fact Has been so quiet here at we we love you and time for you to unmute and come come say what up. And then let's let's answer some questions. Can I ask her out of my my hiding cake now has a cool. I'm just surprised you're wearing a shirt frankly, but I wore a shirt before I came on the call. Can you believe that that was a game-changer? Well, there you go. Well, hey, hold on. I'm not saying that either but Chris, I guess you don't know. I'm like its it doesn't matter what time of day it is the first call I ever have like any day. I will not be willing to share with the first three digits or I'll be put as I'm logging on the zoo. Yeah. I don't wear clothes. I mean I walk around the house. I work mostly naked most of the time or actually, right? Yeah. Why not? I need I need to have I need to have my dog testicles well-ventilated to be able to write great copy the free Syrian secret here working. You will make better copy. I promise. Damn. That's the hot tip, right? Yeah. I didn't know I didn't know him. You guys are funny though. It is interesting real quick. Cuz I like to draw I'm a little more casual stuff in today, but I actually like to dress nicely even when I'm just at home cuz I just feel like when I addressed and I started to feel more like I don't know motivated and stuff like that. So I tend to do that but you guys are in the other side of it where you're just not trust at all. So it's kind of fun. I hate clothes. I hate wearing clothes. I hate the fact that we have to do that. Yeah, that's interesting. All right, that's just about it for today before we finish. So let me share a little bit more about how you can stay in touch with me. I have a private email lists where I share high-level tricks strategies and gave us about copywriting entrepreneurship mindset and More. In fact often. My podcasts are based on topics. I first emailed out to my list weeks or even months earlier. So if you want to get brand new stuff for me am single day go to Stephen Paul George, I subscribe. These emails are often upwards of a thousand words. Can I send them every day? So make sure you really can commit to engage in with me off that level but as long as you can and you should because I do drop a ton of value in these emails go apply to join my list today. And again, the web address is Stephen Paul George, How's the crime and in case you don't know how to spell my name is okay. It is Stefan Paul and my last name is George i g e o r g i e Tom so Stephen Paul George, I subscribe and I will see you in my email.

5% 1% Stephen Paul George seven hundred million dollars 30% Mike westerdal Chris Rodger Craig Clemens Georgia Justin Rob Chris Fox four years Jeff Walker ten years Carlton Jordan Hall Mario Nintendo
The 'Tiger King' Of It's Time: Rob Kapilow On Cole Porter's Music

Radio Boston

13:58 min | 2 months ago

The 'Tiger King' Of It's Time: Rob Kapilow On Cole Porter's Music

"I'm to Tucson during. This Weekend Music Educator Rob Kapela will make his only trip all year to Boston to record a version of his what makes it great music series presented by the celebrity series. The show takes part classic songs and breaks down what makes them so great. His Boston show will focus on the works of Cole. Porter Porter was the American composer and songwriter behind early mid century popular musicals. Anything goes and Kiss Me Kate here he is singing his hit song. Feels like a weird time to be talking about pulled form in two thousand and twenty. So when we reached rob from New York I asked him why did he decide? It has one performance this year to focus on Cole Porter. Cole. Puerto is enormously popular and he's enormously popular interestingly enough right now for very similar reasons to he was popular then you know so many of Cole Porter's most famous songs were written in the middle of the depression I mean anything goes written in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, four, I mean the thirties was a fantastic decade for Cole porter the For almost no one else America you know in a way it was like the tiger king of its time only A. Much classier version but you know it provided a wonderful escape into this world where everybody is beautifully dressed has impeccable manners and speaks in perfect rhymed couplets. There was an enormous number of people who went to the movies in staggering numbers during the depression. This kind of escape was popular in. So many different ways miniature golf became hugely popular in the Nineteen Thirties. That's Cole Porter offers really is this fantastic escape into this wonderful world of a glittering possiblility that was somehow. In but not present how are we looking to entertainment to help us escape and and is there any part of reality that you find in this music to you either in the face of a horrific situation you either look you try to escape from it but I think is wonderful about Cole Porter is though it might seem because the surface is so glittering and so distant from. Those gritty realities of the depression as if he were avoiding it beneath that glittering surface are all these issues of love loss regret despair. So once you get past the glittering surface and the white tie inhales, there's all those fundamental human realities that are beneath the surface that make it much more than tiger king you know and I was a little kid I used to watch musicals. On Saturday mornings on TV and it was fred astaire and Ginger Rogers and was this wealthy elite exclusive club that you would escape into which Cole Porter not only presented. But really was apart of and I wonder in the comparisons that you're making is there a Cole Porter today do we have somebody out there in music right now that is sort of our Cole Porter in this. Moment well, I would say the closest to a Cole Porter in this moment though now he's near the end of his life with certainly Stephen Sondheim who has capturing in a way their own world. As you just mentioned, Cole, porter was not only transporting us to what to most people seem like fictional world that they weren't living in. It was the world that he was actually living in. For him, it wasn't a fiction he was wearing white tie and tails nearly every day for dinner less Fred astaire he was fred. ASTAIRE. whereas. Sometime also was really talking from his own world as well but somehow found even in his own unique world something that connected with everyone else's world. All right. So now in your concerts in your performances, you will sort of help us look beneath the curtain behind the music of a song and help us understand what makes it great and I understand you're gonNA walk us through the chorus of your the top from one thousand, nine, hundred four is anything goes I always Ethel Merman right who I hear in the back of my mind that sort of your Ta. which perfect that sounds? Radio thing doesn't work out I see. I. Would Have SORTA. Let you start to walk us through the magic of that song, Yeah I. Think First of all, if you really want to get a sense of what porter's world was like during the depression, there's this wonderful article by this New Yorker Writer Margaret Harriman at the time, and she talks about the composition of your the top. She says you're the top was composed quote during a separate booth sue. Twat when Cole and Miss Alastair McIntosh entertain themselves by making up. A list of superlatives that rind porter considered the song just a trick and thought people would soon be bored by it rather than being bored by it. People joined in and newspapers reported that the game around town in the winter of nineteen, thirty, four, thirty, five was writing new verses to you're the top sometimes loot ones I mean that's what porter and his social circle were doing in nineteen, thousand, nine, hundred, thirty, four, thirty, five at the height of the depression and in fact. This is A. Six game six degrees of Kevin Bacon, base areas exam, and in fact, it was not only him but he would get three hundred parodies a month in the mail from other people who joined it, and again talk about escape. So you just have to get that mill you before you even start hearing the incredible song itself. Now, to talk about the song itself, you know probably the most famous question that every great songwriter has ever been asked is what comes first the words or The music. Well, I'm not going to solve this once, and for all the truth is it makes absolutely no difference. It's the combination of the two that counts and often ported rhythmic genius is the key. So let's just look at the very beginning of the famous your top, and let's build up just the first three words you're the top from ordinary degrade in four stages. So let's start with the bad version that I rode with your. The top three even notes. This is not great. Your thought top now I haven't changed a note of quarter. All I've done is change the rhythm and now it's really boring. You're the TUMP. Now let's make it a little bit better by speeding up just the top and turning it into a syncopation. So not your got top, but you're the top like this. Your the top it starts to come to life Yeah Alison I'm wiggle in with you but now even better porter also syncopated your off the beat as well. So now it's actually You're the top and suddenly those words come alive just because of the way he said it and one more fantastic thing that's the key to at all. Now, you might have noticed that the piano is playing a little leap up before that vocal entrance and that leap up is the essence of you're the top. Now the truth is I've been cheating. I have actually been playing a simple opt of the same notes on bottom and top. but. Leaves higher to fantastic distance. Up to the top and the harmony under your, the top has one great note listen closely this is subtle. Ordinary would be this. You'll work the top but instead of. He changes one note to. Its these tiny changes that are the difference between Gordon. Great. Why does that feel? So different I mean it literally physically feels different to hear that because this has no tension. This is Oh, what's going to come next? Again, it's that tension beneath the socially perfect persona it all looks lovely on the surface you're the top and everything being neat and tidy. But beneath that, there's always this tension. Now remember the porter was married for thirty four years to a woman who was once described as the most beautiful woman in the world it was actually a marriage of convenience and he was a closeted homosexual and so there's so much tension beneath the surface of all the lyrics of Cole. Porter, this is a regular life with a regular marriage. This is porter. Now Porter is a mastered having lyrics unfold in the perfect pace for the audience to follow. So there's a little filler in the piano. Top piano goes. which gives the audience time to get ready to hear the witty description that follows. Now, here's how PORTA works follow closely we've got three notes for your the. He keeps those three notes as the core. The first three tough. What comes next? You're the top become the first three notes of Your Call Lust. What I call additive construction, you keep the three. And add more. Now even that first phrase, you now see how many great choices there are I'll slow it down. We got the first great leap. To a distance. We've got the great core that made you shiver under your the top with our double syncopation. We've got our little Phil. Getting US ready. And then we've got our new added version you're AKAL CEO in five seconds of music. It was so interesting to have you talk about you know he's a he was a popular as an escape right and yet there were all of these difficult things happening underneath and it and it really is interesting. It's like the listener at some visceral level understand it. That's what we're. Doing here, right. So you've got that dissonance in that tension, which is what everyone's living through, and then you get this little promise of now. We're GONNA have the escapist fun here comes the list and you get both at the same time, and in fact, what comes next is a perfect example of what you described. Now you just heard you're the top the first way. You're the top but when it repeats its lower and it's now in a minor key, which gives us a different side to the same word search. That time. There's more than we see on the surface and then even that little piano Phil changes accordingly the first time was in major and it was bright like this. Now. It's in minor and lower. Things are not always what they seem importer I'll just skip ahead to the. There's so much more if you come and listen to our program, the celebrities irs, but the ending is somehow the essence of quarter came. That's wonderfully new self deprecating ending to finish the song. But if baby I'm the bottom, you're the top but what could be more perfect way to end the song completely encapsulating the text? In the music then to have the highest note of the song, be the final note of the song as the singer sings that words you're the top at the top of the range of the singer and the range of the song it literally is the top. But if they be on the bottom, you're the top and the width continues to the final note, he takes that little opening Piano Phil. Does the exact same notes higher but with different cords underneath. And then instead of simply resolving an ending squarely on the beat, and here he delays to the last instant that tension we're talking about. Way Dow Gun. Port. resolution. I feel resolved wow we're win was the first time you found yourself thinking you know you sort of discovered Cole Porter as. One of these musical magicians that you teach us about. Well, you know I was writing a book at the last ten years. I was working on a book that came out in. November called listening for America inside the Great American songbook from Gershwin Tucson time, and over the ten years each year I would pick one composer to focus on that year when I spent on porter was truly discovery for me because I just always thought of the surface of porter and I had no idea how much was going on underneath us for example, I had no idea that one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, seven, he had this tragic riding accident. That for the last twenty, seven years of his life. He had thirty operations was crippled and in pain and only stopped writing the day after he finally had to have his leg amputated. I had no idea. So it was really during that your of research when I discovered, what was the neath the glittering surface and realized how powerful that is and that that's what really connects us because in the end as long as there is love loss yearning and regret, there will always be poured. That is composer Rab Capital Oh rob. Thank you so much for being with us today taking us into the world and the music of Porter. Thanks so much for having aiding as I'll probably miss. Aw. We will go out with your the top. This version is performed by Kaphalo and Broadway singers, Sally Wilford. And Michael Winther at Jordan Hall the two Singers Company Capital this weekend in for more on what makes it great presented by the celebrity series you can go to our website radio bossom data work from a symphony by Strauss you're at Ascott show for today. Radio Boston is produced by Jamie Bologna Zoe Mitchell Chris Citric Paris Allston. Tim spoke is our technical director with engineering today by Glenn Alexander, our executive producer is tash. TCI during. Thanks for listening. Join US again tomorrow for radio. Boston's like we can review. But if baby I'm the bottom, you're the top.

Porter Porter Cole Boston New York America Rob Kapela Nineteen Thirties Phil Puerto Tucson Fred astaire Kate Ethel Merman Kevin Bacon Stephen Sondheim US Jordan Hall Rab Capital ASTAIRE. TCI
FTP101: Rebel Wisdom - Who Are The Intellectual Deep Web?

Future Thinkers Podcast

1:01:19 hr | 1 year ago

FTP101: Rebel Wisdom - Who Are The Intellectual Deep Web?

"Hey and welcome to future thinkers dot org podcast about the evolution of Technology Society and consciousness. I Mike and I'm U._V._A.. Villanova if you need to the show and you want to get a list of our favorite books popular episodes and to join our community go to future thinkers dot org slash start guys and welcome to episode one one of the future thinkers podcast we recently met with David and Alex from rebel wisdom they've been exploring many similar subjects as us and have interviewed many of the same people oh like Daniel Smart and Burger Jordan Green Hall and Jamie Wheel so we recently had a round table style conversation with them about the intellectual dark web where that conversation seems to be heading wide needs to go deeper and how to find cohesion and unity in decentralized world so here is that conversation and for a laments from this episode you can go to future thinkers dot org slash one. Oh one checkup a new course in personal evolution part one is on cultivating sovereignty and is designed to support you in developing more clarity about your direction and purpose in life making better decisions and having more agency to live your life on your own terms. Partout is on integrating the shadow and is designed to support you overcoming nihilism and tapping tapping into inner source of energy creativity and wisdom to make meaningful progress towards actualising your full potential to learn more go to courses that future thinkers dot org. How'd you guys so we are joined by Mike and U._V.? U._v. of the future thinkers podcast and it's probably overdue to be honest that we connect because we're in very similar areas we speak to a lot of the same people I'm really interested to hear from you guys what you've learned from those conversations uh-huh and how that's influence what you're doing because I know that there's probably quite similar journeys and I'm really intrigued to hear how that's been and maybe if you could just start by introducing yourselves and how you feel that your the future thing 'cause podcast has evolved over the last few years since he started doing it sure and likewise it's <hes> we've been very intrigued by what you guys are doing and it's been actually really nice and refreshing to see you putting out this content but I think there's a huge necessity for it so yeah I I honestly think that the the more of the these conversations are out there the better because they need to be happening so <hes> as far as future thinkers goes we started in two thousand thirteen in the end of two thousand thirteen where recorded our first episode and <hes> it started because Mike and I were just having interesting conversations with each other every morning hang over coffee and we had a bunch of friends who had podcasts they were mostly business podcasts but <hes> we thought why not start our own podcast but that wasn't about business. It was just about us you know talking philosophy feud with each other navel-gazing philosophy yeah and we'd actually kind of started off doing this digital nomad thing we read that book for our workweek and kind of use that as a roadmap for running a business traveling and we we left bought one way tickets Thailand in two doesn't thirteen and then we'd all ten Farris both it is really but we were interested in a lot of the subjects you know the flaw philosophical psychedelic kind of those weird navel-gazing subject so we ended up having a lot of those conversations when we had kind of bought our time back through being digital nomads so read a lot more books had a lot more of those conversations than decided to start recording them. Did you guys have a background in philosophy or anything you study at university diversity. Well what what brought you did that specifically. We both had actually quite a series of really challenging events happening kind of in our late teens early twenties a lot of deaths around us a lot of just really challenging things is and for me. I'll speak about myself it kind of got me into meditation and I started to realize the fragility of life and got into a lot more philosophical subjects. There's a lot of the stuff I'd been doing at that. Time was a lot more related to just music and music production and I was trying to be recording engineer and so I just felt like I wanted to have some kind of bigger impact than just recording metal bands and in a basement studio and I wanted to travel and see the world in that kind of stuff so that not really started the the adventure for me. I grew up in during the collapse of the Soviet Union so I think just seeing the grit of the world and the problems of the world just served right in my face from an early childhood made me question. A lot of things made me question reality question why people on T._v. were saying one thing but I was seeing another thing in my everyday life and so I just I spent a lot of time alone. That was kind of a loner as a kid and you spend a lot of time thinking about nature of reality I didn't develop a formal meditation practice until later but <hes> that was also a big part of my path I studied psychology in the university and also trying to understand human nature and had had a lot of challenges the same as as Mike was saying and so I think it was just a natural progression for both of us that we he came to the subjects great so you both have a background in inner growth work of some kind meditation and philosophy so what what topics do you tend to cover on the show. We'll it's actually kind of blending of of our two interests like I'm a lot more techie. Jackie studied programming engineering that kind of stuff so I really like that stuff I was really interested in artificial intelligence and blockchain a lot of these technologies. We haven't really been covering that stuff lately. It's been more about personal development psychology sociology. We're really interested into the development of society and so we've been attracted to thinkers like you know Jordan Peterson joined Green Hall Daniel Schmuck number these guys who are trying to map out the territory have of the necessity of evolving society and so that's what our podcast is about the evolution of Technology Society consciousness yeah. I'd love to come back to that in a minute about I think probably we. We've all of us have a sense of kind of direction to this conversation that we're following the threat of the conversation and where it's going that the kind of emergence of Jordan Peterson was a real kind of exclamation point in that and then we've also got a sense we've also kind of honed in on some of the similar thing because we think have the really crucial pieces to add to that conversation you mentioned Jordan Green Hall or Jordan Hall is now is Daniel smacktalk Burger for example for Jamie wheel. Those kind of think is probably not as well known yet as the sort of intellectual dark web thinkers but we think have something really crucial to add to the conversation so just before before we get into that which is a little bit about our background so Elian. I actually met through the Psychedelic Festival Breaking Convention which is the biggest festival around psychedelic science in in the U._K.. In Europe and in Europe at least that's what we say yeah I know it is in Europe and so we've had a shared interest in psychology psychedelics personal growth and transformation and personally I I trained as a journalist I worked for about pretty twelve to fifteen years as a journalist at the BBC and then at Channel Four and then started making documentaries for the BBC and Channel Four to working inside a newsroom as well for there's a lot of people who work make documentaries but I think that experience of being inside a newsroom and being like immersed in the in the conversation for over ten years is is something that that is is quite a unique obviously is not unique lots of other people do it but but it gives you a different sense of kind of the ebb and flow of the of the news agenda and just getting very frustrated and very bored with the whole thing like how facile so much of the conversation is and how difficult it is to break out of certain ways of looking at the world and how much is is excluded from those the everyday perspectives and and what I what I really am hoping for from the the video side of rebel wisdom is that we're bringing a slightly Tapeh Lens on some of those questions and I'm also interested to see where that goes in the future. What are what would education policy or a health a health policy influenced by a much deeper a sense of who we are as people ruggedness materialist paradigm or this very transactional game a if people know that kind of terminology the terminology the Brit Weinstein Jordan Gordon Green whole often offer news and that's something that I think is really interesting? That's what I sort of see going. Forward is the interesting area to look at if we took it talking about systems change or the end end of one paradigm what does this New Paradigm look like and then just sort of round that off that has to go into the transformational that has to go into the limit of that has to go into the the the areas of. Of what you might call spirituality personal growth or and there's also not really a good language for it because all of those words contaminate to one degree or another just like how do you have the conversation wall all the terminology that you might use to talk about it has associations that you the kind of blocks many people from hearing what you have to say so yeah. That's why rebel wisdom with river wisdom we run events we run live. We live events and and then transformational workshops to try and bring those pieces together yeah a my background is maybe not so different to yours Mike in the sense. I started meditating quite early on in my life so I think I was maybe eighteen eighteen nineteen and I was really. I guess it's been two threads my own personal development was one was psychedelics which is the reason I actually started meditating because I was fascinated by that. Experience fascinated by really what what what'd opened up and so got quite into meditation and then was fascinated by just the whole philosophy around the psychedelic world so I see I used to spend lots and lots of times in forums arguing about free will versus versus determinism and any any kind of subject and that really felt like the cutting edge of the conversation to me. Maybe ten fifteen years ago even to this day. I have the feeling that a lot evolve coming out of the Psychedelic community twenty from twenty years ago onwards was still very relevant and maybe quite far ahead of its time I see a lot of the same ideas popping up so I got involved in. I started with my wife a meditation Asian School in London and also I'm one of the organizers of Breaking Convention this Psychedelic Conference David mentioned earlier which is happening now again in August so it's been really interesting to watch that strand grow I think think over the years I I kind of took a step back from the psychedelic world because I feel any community gets very insular and gets into a bubble and I didn't feel like all of the interesting conversations were happening there then as as well as all of that I was also working kind of leading a double life that was a very strange period where I was running a meditation studio and also freelancing and working in advertising agencies marketing agencies and having a foot very much in both worlds in the world where you have to explain things very simply to people and the world all inter development where it sometimes impossible to explain things at all so I've always found that intersection that crux point really fascinating too. I think Douglas Autumn said two F. The ineffable now how do you how do you translate what really is limited and can't be felt in a way that is useful for people in that people understand and so that's that's always been a fascination of mine and yeah and the growth th- work which it sounds like all of us share has been come increasingly important not just meditation but also group work and practices like for example breath work or embodied practices become another piece of the puzzle so it feels like like much like covering this conversation. There's always pieces of the puzzle that slot in and then there's the kind of growing emerging process both on the individual level and the collective level as well yeah what's fascinating to me is the layering of all all of these different <hes> kind of disciplines and I definitely reference <hes> spiral dynamics quite a bit because there are so many ways in developmental levels to look at the world and they become your lens whatever kind of level you're operating from and you could look through shamanism Buddhism the w all different ways of kind of understanding the world but I'm really interested in the connection points between all of them the similarities and overlap. It's been really interesting bringing integral. Hey girl into the conversation with the W because obviously we have interviewed quite a few of the figures and then talked about the idea w as an emergent integral conversation in a piece that Ken wilber read said a man got in touch to say I'd love to to to speak to you about this and then we did the interviews with him and that I think Johnny Whale put it well the a lot of people who currently breaking trail running an integral integral O._S.. It's very good operating system. I think the danger with it is the IT's easy to get caught in that. If you get caught in the operating system then suddenly you're only communicating with other people who are inside that system and you get lost in the map which ironically integral talks about how you must never get lost in the map and then promptly often gets lost in the map but there is this there is a sense for me. Certainly that the this ace I._D.. W Constellation really needs that map like Peterson. Obviously he talks a lot about Jean Piaget and Jean Piaget one of the originators of a whole of a developmental model but I really think I just look at some of the conversations being had for example the Sam Harris Children Peterson debate about the nature of truth and the nature of religious truth and it's like are they. They're in different quadrants just talking past each other and a little bit of integral theory Gary would've really helped them navigate that conversation and you wouldn't have had this sense of them just talking past each other infuriatingly for hours on end. This is so true. I think it's really interesting how something something is emerging right now where people are starting to understand that a single point of views insufficient to view the world and we need some sort of a collective consciousness or away to for multiple people to contribute contribute pieces to create a more whole picture of what is going on and I think that the intellectual dark web has kind of started on that path where they're trying to integrate different points of view but then they stalled a little bit it because maybe people got to famous or you know they're getting a lot of reinforcement for this kind of more polarized political stuff in a little bit got away from the sense making conversation and there are other thinkers that are now becoming more prominent who are picking up that trail well. I think that's the crux as the crux of what's going on and it's it's. It's something we talked about a lot and I've been wrestling with documentary for quite a while glitch in the matrix three which is about exactly this. I think the issue is partly that people in the w some of them were very attached to certain perspectives. If you've built a career on certain perspective. It's very hard then to unpick that and say there was this. There's a sense at the beginning thing especially the way it was originally framed as if you've got a better idea I'm happy to change my mind. This can be an evolving conversation and I think it's fair to say that that's not really been born out. I don't have a sense of real novelty. See Coming from that constellation for quite a while now yeah I think it's for me. It's interesting to compare the the W to the thinkers we kind of touched on earlier. We've all had channels Daniel schmuck burger Jordan whole Genre Vike who have an attitudinal difference than many of the C._W.. Figures do now at least you know maybe wasn't true at the beginning but the idea of being okay with not knowing the idea of the lentil all all of that is is so simple and yet so hugely important for the way the conversation moves and so much of it also maps onto what we know from the meditative with the contemplative traditions you know knowing how not to become attached knowing the dynamics and the phenomenology of attachment all of these things from the upper left quadrant. Let's say from the inner world are very important to translate into the way we communicate with each other and it's complex but I think hugely hugely important. Oh Yeah I've been very curious of where the influences have come from. If we WANNA use Jordan Peterson as an example like to me it felt like at the beginning my interpretation of him was that he was trying to be a demonstration of how to the debate properly and it seems now that when you look at the youtube headlines of anything to do with Jordan Peterson it's generally <hes> Jordan Peterson destroys so and so right and <hes> so and then there's the fame fame component with him as well that he's kind of blasted into the stratosphere of fame and so there's something about the controversy that has pushed him that high that is now maybe causing him to perpetuate some sort of controversy like there's there's generally nothing in kind of easy about what he says. It's very like finger point. He kind of like you need to do this. You're doing this wrong that kind of thing so it's very hard for me to separate him from this movement in the way that this this movement seems to be co opted by the sort of Click Beatty kind of headline grabbing attention grabbing oppositional exactly so let me speak to Jon. He said that he thought it was a mistake to to go down to the political level so he's talking about the meaning crisis and how Jordan Peterson success is directly related to the meaning crisis but he he personally would was much less comfortable with making political statements and bring it down into political realm but at the same time Joel Peterson has a lot of his success in a lot of his fame has been that he's willing to have those conversations and he's also when he's good at. He's very good at it. The Cathy Newman into the for example I think was a real case in point it was he kept his cool. He seemed very it really showed up a sort of a kind of. Simulated thinking in the media really really well because it was like she was running a program and it was like but there wasn't opportunity for dialogue and that I thought could have been had and I'd love to have seen him and Kathy for example have another conversation Asian. I was actually because I worked with Kathy and I also had done the documentary about Jordan. I was trying behind the scenes to get them to be able to talk to each other but it was already there was a lack of trust there and Channel Four News didn't WanNa go there. Cathy Newman didn't on a go there Jordan did and I see so many of the and then I have a sense since then that he is and he's actually talked about this himself in one of his Q._N._A.'s that he's felt a little little bit of battle-weariness and defensiveness coming up and I think that's probably true with a lot of the other people in the w the Sam Harris as well and Eric Weinstein's also said so many of the critiques were low. Oh quality that they've started to actually become immune and and death to some of the better critiques and I think that must be it must be almost impossible if you're that level of fame and you're getting so much critique and and so much of it is actually poor to then be able to differentiate okay. What's the good stuff from the bad stuff? I'm really curious of your guys perspective on the kind of shift in conversation in the I._D.. W. N. namely. I think I heard this term from you. Guys I the intellectual deep web wiser a necessity to switch or what what's with the new label. I don't really understand it. Allie came up with it so what's <hes> well. I think the initial impulse was a lot of what we're talking about now. Is that okay well. There's a couple of things firstly. I don't think the conversation that needs to be had and the movement that we need to make as individuals aw collectively is going to be solved from the intellectual level alone. I think the intellectual level is very important but if something gets stuck in the intellectual it just goes round and round and you need something I mean we know this even from research research into creativity an EMA Gilchrist who we've had on the channel a few times got great take on this with the left brain and the right brain as well the right hemisphere being largely responsible for what we don't know and if we're if we're not tapping into that and we just kind of shut down into reality tunnels so the intellectual I mean to be fair. The word intellectual should be out of the entire equation. I think rather than just intellectual deep web is just a little bit more punchy but that there needs to be again in an integral view on it. There's the intellect and then there's something that goes beyond the intellect and both of those need to be in the conversation and rarely do I see that in the intellectual dark web certainly gently not recently at all really and that's the missing piece I think and that's the piece that I think we're we're always on the lookout for and I think you guys to is who's holding who's holding that perspective contain many perspectives. I'm not say I don't know and that can let go and flow and also there is so I think it's also useful to think about who would be in an intellectual deep web. That wouldn't be an intellectual dark web because because I think for me intellectual dark web it's it's very if it's got Jordan Peterson in it certainly goes beyond the purely materialist but there is still quite a kind of materialist bias to it I think and I think the other thing is that need to be integrated into any sort of if what we're moving towards genuine synthesis then I think we need people standoff for example who who was doing some incredible depth psychology psychedelics back in the fifties and sixties came up with with some incredible models for personal transformation and you've got people at Richard Thanh ask do I think of some of the an incredible thing pretty something cold passionate the Western mind and then Cosmos and psyche who were the people who had just a little bit too esoteric for a an evolutionary ocean route and evolutionary biologists Brett Weinstein or a massive physicists like Eric to like who who's a little bit too hot to handle for someone who's still concerned about their standing in the academy and who who had who is holding those extra pieces. I'd say it's also the kind of esoteric tradition of people at Rudolf Steiner. It's Carl Young who thanks to Peterson is now becoming part of the conversation again but but even he was warned and not to go anywhere near car while he was when he was a unit was like this is this is intellectually toxic to go anywhere near him Freud just about but no young is is too far away is too Esoteric Eric now thankfully Yong's to be coming back in a really big way and I think he's absolutely crucial thinker but then you've got stand groff who goes even further than young in in many ways so who who are those people because I think there are if you look uh history is a kind of a river and a set of Eddie's who are the people in the keys to the side of that main intellectual current that are holding really really important pieces and I think some of those names. I've given us some of them. I'm sure we can come up with more if if we wanted onto that for me is the depth the depth peace and also that there's something about Don Light. There's an implicit. There's an implicit binary inflexible dark web that I think isn't so much there with the deep web. There's there's not really really a binary with depth and shallowness in the same way with dark and light so I think we need to get out of the binary. You need to get out of the sort of polarization in depth may be the way to get out of it. I have a question for you guys actually own this note <hes> thinkers that we talk about or speak to our thinkers you know they they're medium. Let's say is ideas and communicating those ideas usually with language <hes>. There's I'm very <music>. I'm often wondering where are the artists and the storytellers and the really you know. Maybe maybe there's a sculptor who's going to have some incredible explanation of the meaning crisis for example. Have you guys ever thought about these. These people these figures have you had any <hes> who had on who you would classes. Maybe a little bit more out there. I would one of my favorite bands tool. I would love to have maynard discuss these subjects. He's written so much but Carl young in the past transcendence experiences experiences. He's a brilliant thinker is boring as hell to interview but yeah I think that you're really onto something and actually as you were talking about this. I was thinking that it exactly that what you said it's not thinkers incurs. It's more the practitioners who are going to become important and we've noticed this pattern actually in our courses that people want to gain some sort of information some sort of knowledge or framework but they don't actually want to apply it and and this is a big problem with a lot of people hang out and kind of intellectual in the intellectual space that they're uncomfortable leaving it and the kinds of people that I think we desperately need in this new conversation are the people who who are comfortable in or at least have experienced the no mind no self limited space. Yes the problem with this space that a lot of these ideas actually they can only be described through language but you're describing like nick. How do you describe it D. M. T. trip language? It's just like it fails. We try. We did a whole series on M.. T. V. night took turns and then we would document the experience and both of us would just come out of the trip laughing because it's impossible to describe it. It's like you. I was like okay I know I've got to describe this now. And then all I could do is laugh. At least you go to story for when you go on Joe Rogan's podcast and he asked you the inevitable question yeah. He does a brilliant job of explaining it. I don't know how he puts words to it but yeah that's right. I think there's a huge vacuum a need for artists to come into this conversation and I just don't see it being filled at all like I would love to see he more graffiti and more music and all kinds of different digital art being done and that's something I think we've tried to do with our podcast. Cradle are the artwork for the for the podcast before we switched video and it was just an attempt to visualize the subjects right but I don't know. I don't know why there's not more out there. That's kind of more popular than it is well. I think it's that that point that some people are just good at practice but they're not good at putting into words and vice versa versa and even in saying that I see a huge need for bridging. It's like we need better integration again. An integral terms we need to integrate all the different faculties of the human experience that have become so separated for different cultural reasons so there's a there's a band that I'm really into at the moment called comment is coming and I might even post a link to the review of their latest just album and it's the music is the same story like what they're saying through. The music is exactly the same story as I'm hearing through the guys on the cutting edge. The DANIELSON ACTON burgers the Jamie wheel. I think the review said something like dancing in a it's like it's like hopeful- hopefully apocalyptic music in some sense that what they're what I hear in the music and why I'm sorry so. Enthused by this sort of aliveness of possibility with this sort of still sense of the overwhelm of the of the the moment at the same time and so I do think there are there there are people communicating very similar things in different mediums but possibly an I'd love to talk to the saxophonist about it and I I strongly suspect that that he would be trying to communicate through his music exactly the same <music>. I'm experiences probably throw a lot of the same substance as some of the some of the guys that we're thinking about have have also experienced and so it is a case of bridging building those bridges as he said you've. How do you build those bridges? What is the soundtrack to the kind of conversations that we're having actually? I just got reminded there. Is this short film that we really liked. Recently by Lubomir Arsov it is that his last name called in shadow and it's <hes> has a very trippy music soundtrack in just visuals. It's very beautiful kind of distortion demonstration of the <hes> the fakeness of current <hes> civilization and then at the end the hopeful twist that is very. I don't know how to describe it. It's esoteric typically optimistic somehow I didn't find it to be sarcastic. I found it to be very kind of mystical union of the feminine and the Masculine and they ascend and it's very super archetypal so I thought that was really cool. It's interesting that we had Eric Davis here yesterday. You Guys Know Eric Davis the the author he kind of He's written a few books that he wrote one techno CICIS the intersection Marine Technology Oh gee psychedelics the esoteric a really interesting guy but he had this phrase that stuck with me. He talked about we're living in a banal apocalypse just popped up as as everyone's talking because that is a common theme in the art that you're describing is there's a sense of there's a sense of banality and a sense of apocalyptic as an apocalyptic situation and I'm still trying to feel into that same question. You had mike while he goes like why aren't there lots of artists putting out stuff as in every other historical period I can think of it was the the push against the culture. The thing that helped a new thing emerge was driven by the artists and interestingly now it seems not to be driven by the artist and in fact. They seem to be absent not that they're not there at all but it's kind of hard to find them. You know we're we're talking right now. We're kind of figure out. Oh there's this a few things are tapping into it so I don't know whether that means we're headed for an explosion of a new era era of art or something else is going on. I hope so I mean one of our favorite subjects to talk about is <hes> basic income which is in the reason before I get into that that I love that subject so much is that I love art and I I love seeing art without the commercial means and I think a lot of corporations are really good at coopting art the second you put something really mind blowing great about their someone wants to hire you to make their explainer video so lumieres. I think a good example. I don't know what he's doing now but he made this brilliant art piece and we wanted to work with them and he's just booked up forever. There's no way to get him so yeah. I think something like a basic income. Even a small amount just to get expensive covered would be really interesting to see the effects on the art explosion that would happen after that you know how. How many times do you ask people what they would do? You probably asked this question at the retreats all the time. What what would you do if you could do anything you want if money was not an object exactly the in how how many answers do you get back? It's like arts or music or something like that. It's like most of the time that's what it is to make documentaries that kind of thing so I would love to see what would happen with the basic income as far as the art explosion goes. Take away the commercial incentive yeah. I wanted to just say something else just thinking about that bridge building. I was thinking maybe we talk about off to the cool but let's talk about it now and maybe it's something to be put out there as as a kind of open inquiry. How do we turn this conversation that we're all aware of as a kind of emergent phenomenon and we we're all I'm sure you're contacted by people in the same way that we are constantly saying? How can I get involved in this? I really recognize what it is. Is that you guys are doing. I've been following the same kind of threads how do we how do we turn this into a cultural movement. How do we how do we make it into more than the sum of its parts in a way that I mean? I don't know no well that is I don't know whether it's a it starts with a kind of dialogue in a an email thread or or a facebook group somewhere or something and we think about who are the other people who are part of this kind of emergent phenomenon on an untrimmed pool our resources. I don't know what it what it is but I do get the sense of that. We I mean I certainly feel it myself very teeny rebel wisdom. It's like if we're not a catalyst for something bigger than ourselves then. What are we doing this fall because we don't have time even even if we were able to build a really kind of we're barely sustainable sort of financially as it is but if we were able to create financially sustainable business and we're doing really well? I don't think that's enough. That's enough for what needs to happen in the near future and I think it has to be some form of catalyzing something bigger than ourselves in that way and and and in this game be world that we talk about as well that it it's about. It's a tragic OIK space. What does it look like to operate in this trans ago expand who the other people that are operating in it as well and I mean really operating all pricing it no? I'm just saying that they are and then when it comes to any crunch decisions they go back to the kind of a go at programming. How do you get beyond this and how how do we how do we scale or create more? The how do we create eight a movement around it. That's my question. That's my opening query. I think I've three kind of answers to that. The first is what we've attempted to do with our courses which is about kind of about the isolation that people who are writing those emails are asking <hes> the community to plug into but there's a lot of work that needs to be done just on your own. There's a lot of meditation. There's a lot of exploration. There's a lot of deconstruction of ego and identity that I think is necessary to establish I would I would probably term a collective intelligence like a global collective intelligence. There's a lot of ways that a collective intelligence can screw up. If someone you know is signaling how smart they are. You know wants to be the center of attention or is just kind of operating out of ego. Oh so there's there's that initial thing that people need to do before they should even attempt anything else do that in that self construction and deconstruction work. I think that's what Peterson talks about quite a lot. <hes> then there's the community Eh aspect which is parallel which I think you guys are trying to do as well as us so I think that means that we need to have people who are kind of training the trainers to go out there start their own. Nothing could be a podcast could be documentary could be art of any kind. We've talked about a lot of that stuff but just start their own community where they are so plug into online communities like what we're doing and then start your own thing as well so those are the three things I would say that practice is a huge part of it because it's not just that people need to be having conversations and I think that was one of the maybe failings of the integral movement does that it just became very intellectual. You know people are just we're yeah we're also integral. We're having these integral conversations but no change is actually happening so change comes through practice and you know accessing that luminol space where your previous sense of self your previous sense of the world can dissolve so that's something new can emerge and I think that giving people maybe a set of practices <hes> <hes> but something that they can do on their own without supervision without guidance and a way to self organize is going to be really useful something simple in ripley replicable the I agree with that I think there's also a big missing piece and and one of the big reasons that it's so difficult to get us all to go kind of posted go can stay there and be anti-fraud jawline that a not not crumble when when the stakes get higher is that we need something some higher order purpose which is higher within the ego that everyone is aimed towards and we used to have that and I feel often in the conversation the high level conversation. There's a lot of euphemisms for gold or for the divine or for the mystery or whatever it is and I don't think it needs needs necessarily to be named but I think you know you'll talk about this as well it just in terms of the EGO and the self if the EGO doesn't have the self to sit within the EGO thinks it's above the self then you get the narcissism then you get the confusion. You need something that contextualize as the ego go but I guess the complicated thing is. How do we find that thing or what is that thing? How do you even point people towards that thing in the way they agree to? You know because that I think is very important that needs to be some sense of. We are all working towards some higher purpose or some higher and I'm not sure what that higher purpose should be framed odd but it feels like a very important piece that's missing because that brings humility and it also brings shared focus on intention <hes> yeah I I struggle with that one actually to define that for myself because I mean I have worked really hard to to remove desire and remove ego from as much as I can in my day to day life. I'm not saying that's I that's mission accomplished but and I think to a degree what we're doing this future thinkers. I have done it in a way that cleans the purpose of it like we are. I want to have fun doing what I'm doing and I want to affect people but beyond that the day to day if it's not fun it's not going to be achieved. I'm not going to do it anymore. Not GonNa work on it. If if it affects people then that's just a byproduct and I think the fact that that's my one of my first priorities cleans the purpose of it where it's like. I'm not attached to some result. I don't need your money. I don't need your approval. I don't need your you know in respect. I just want to have fun and share what I'm passionate about. Some of these subjects that we're talking about. I think that's kind of the same you're more purpose driven than I am but but I think removing moving the desire to be something or signal something or achieve. Something has really cleaned the whole thing for me so I'm not chasing after money. I'm not chasing after approval anything like that like I used to but I think what Alex was saying thing is that <hes> there needs to be something greater for its to fall back on because not everybody can <hes> just exist in that void in that empty space like that's. It's a much more difficult. You know it's like a few steps down so something greater than yourself to rest on is a lot more achievable for the majority of people whether that's God or nature or the mystery or the universe divine whatever they call it but if people disagree on what that is then it can cause problems and bickering. I think it also allows for for those those kind of we talked about. Branches is is a metaphor history swinging from branch to branch like a monkey. It's like you go from one ideology and then that ideology collapses and you have to grab onto something else and what I'm attempting to do is just to let go altogether and see what happens and I think that's a big part of the problem in this conversation is people are operating from their different ideologies and trying to co-opt other people and or convert and I just think a lot of that needs to stop and for us to just kind of go both end like like accept all the positions and not really hold tightly to any position and that's been if I if I hadn't have let go completely. I think I probably will are probably would have still been pursuing money and that's that message and goal the future thinkers would have been bastardized in some way but there must be Mike there must be on say must be. I'm wondering is there in letting go psychologically is very difficult to do unless you feel. You're going to be caught unless you feel that say the the universe is a fundamentally supportive place that it's safe to let go into and I'm wondering if that is how you see things because I think that's partly what I mean by a sense of coherence and cohesion in reality that people agree on as well L.. It's quite important but and that was traditionally the role that religion would give people for example they would know that there is a higher order purpose. There's a reason to things and that creates a different kind of interaction now. We're well past. We're in. We're post modernity not so it's very difficult to just go back to that so I guess that's my inquiry is what does it look like now. How you know in a decentralized collective intelligence what does that shared thing like I think for Vicki talks about this in probably the most detail and says it in the best way I think we are in a meaning crisis and a lot of times in the past that meaning has been given from religion of some kind but it's also been provided by tribes in community and I think we lack both of those things generally in which is why people are are just so desperate you know if you kind of let go of the branches I think the tribe is meant to be there to support you through that and we don't really have that so that fall is potentially dangerous but I think that's that should be the goal like establish a community establish a tribe and then try and let go the problem that I have is that is that people tend to form Meam uh-huh tribes they formed tribes around ideology because they desperately need a tribe so <hes> to go back to the question of is there some shared higher purpose well because we are experiencing very serious existential control risks on this planet especially climate change which is becoming very <hes> accelerated and very evident? I think that for the time being that shared purpose or that something greater than ourselves could be earth nature then I think that's something that a lot of people can connect with quite easily and it's not very esoteric easer interesting. What do you guys think I concert for myself? I I don't know if I can answer it. In the general. I know what it is. That makes my life purposeful. I know what my particular skill set is. I know what that Ah what I have a sense of what kind of sense of a there's the Buddhist idea of awakening but I think there's a kind of deeper awakening which is where you awaken and and in some sense that means the universe is way more intelligent than than he's almost conceivable that you realize you kind of awakened into a place where you have exactly the right skills and the right you awaken in exactly the right place the we're all sort of and that's kind of what we're all trying to express in some in some sense like this and we all have to find that for ourselves and we have to find that kind of awakening into the place where we're meant to be with exactly the right history and having achieved all of giving ourselves exactly the right skills to do what we need to do next and that's something that we all have to come to ourselves. It's very difficult to generalize because when you start looking for this grand explanation what you're not stop doing is coming right back down to the level of the individual and right back down to the very almost microscopic I mean the the kind of clean your room is not a ridiculous place to start but the missing piece in that that I think a a lot of people react against enjoyed Peterson is he doesn't make the next step like clean your room sort yourself out first and then you'll know what to do next and then there's the when you break it down like it almost sounds like magical thinking and when you expect when you explain it in that way it does sound like magical thing is what do you mean how can that be when you look at the ice caps melting and the biodiversity loss and all all of these require structures to deal with this like all all I can do is say is trust the all of the people who have co been cold into making that particular area of because I'm not I'm not a climate scientist. I don't know anywhere near enough about all of these things to say anything. Definitive I sent that same level of existential threat and I think that the crisis that that is a manifestation of his far deeper. I'm interested in the philosophical roots of that crisis and that's what I think I'm personally speaking to the interviews and documentaries that I'm making and I know that I can do that and that's what I think are meant to be doing but all I can do is have faith that the people that are that are involved in those conversations are having similar awakening moments to the ones that I'm having an I see the people around me having that will be the thing that gets if not all of us but at least as many of us as possible through what is to come does that speak to the to that question or not yeah it does inspired the next train of thought here for me. which is you mention Peterson Peterson saying just clean up your room and that kind of like okay? What's the next step? I really feel that what the next step is there that in I kind of feel the reason he's not saying it because there is no roadmap that can just be he handed you you do have to just keep kind of climbing on your own and for a lot of people there freaked out by the state of the world but they're they're room isn't clean there in that that is a metaphor like their life isn't cleaned that they're kind of grasping onto one thing or another emotionally reacting to nearly everything and there's something about that in the way our society converses and tries to make decisions collectively that is is causing a lot of problems like the reason we can't collectivize devise solve some of these problems make policies that at least try and work towards reversing climate change and that's just one example. We're just not collectivize in having productive conversations and I think the idea w is attempting to show people how to have have productive conversations again so there's something about sovereignty individual mental sovereignty that is important here where I. I feel like if you if you're looking for meaning in these different things like meaning in as in I must contribute to the world. I must change the world and it's like you haven't done that. Individual quiet work of cleaning your room cleaning your life then you're you're not going to be prepared to make the right steps in the world. You might be responding to some sort of internal lack or fear and you're you're going to be taking actions. That aren't necessarily going to be the right thing for the world so that's why I think it's kind of self evident in what he saying what the next step will be. It's like there's so much work to be done individually and then the path every next step lays itself out for you as you go and I think there's another thing that's quite interesting about the idea w or the intellectual deep web specifically to what Jordan Green Hall or Jordan Hall in Daniel Stockton Burger have been saying in the not necessarily what they're saying but how they're saying it it's like they've climbed this mountain this intellectual mountain and have surveyed made the landscape surveyed the mountain they'd just finished climbing and there's a lot the rest of us are still climbing and we're trying to figure out how to get there and I'm not saying there's a plateau in it's done. There's still climbing as well but it's like they. They've turned around in our shouting instructions at us but those instructions are not really helpful in in the position that people are at generally they don't necessarily need the survey of the landscape they just need to be told keep going and this is climate claimable. You can do it like when you're climbing. You're just worried about the next step. Just keep going the next footing. It's almost like they're describing the landscape. That's upper up ahead but you don't need to know that together. Um Most people don't yeah and I think that's one of the reason Peterson's been so successful is because he has served the land and he's not really shouting back these detailed instructions that people he's just saying take the next step clean your room room do that next thing because people are so lost and they're basically stuck at their base camp and not moving so he's just saying start climbing again start climbing and I also want to just throw something more in here. Just in case people are watching this and haven't seen much of Peterson stuff because you calm breakdown like if you watch the maps of meaning lecture series compared to his twelve rules for life for example which I I have to admit I haven't finished reading the The maps of meaning lecture series is is an absolute absolute told the force. It's an absolute masterpiece of a coherent in theory of everything similar to can echoes came Wilbur for me in the kind of the breadth and the attempt to at linking together all all of these kinds of mythologies and stories into a coherent framework so it's not the it's not that all he's offering sort of clean your room and do the things you can do there is there is a much broader vision that that that I don't think I don't think as many people as I would like aware of but yeah I just want to throw that in there just give a little shout out to the maps of meaning series yeah. It was awesome. Actually it's it's what got me into Jordan Peterson as well <hes> I wanted to speak to the sovereignty piece and I think that it's in extremely important process and practice coming into the world that we're living in now and for the future so sovereignty as in having an internal compass having internal authority for where you going instead of looking for some External Person Authority figures system map to tell you what to do in order to go because the the ground is shifting beneath our feet even though authorities or so called authorities don't know whether going they're just doing their best and the people who seem to be making the most sense are in fact operating in that limited space where the ground is constantly shifting underneath our feet and I think that that is maybe the most useful thing that people can do is find their own internal compass so that only really need it is for somebody to just encourage them and say keep going and this is doable and nothing more they have to figure out everything else by themselves and I know that's extremely harsh and a dozen land well with a lot of people that we try to tell this to what I really deeply think that that's what's necessary right now and yet if you look at the Hero's journey that is the that is every story is the is the space of going from dependency and a lack of agency and lack of sovereignty having to make choices for yourself to decide who am I what kind of personnel and the hero or heroine makes those choices and then they are someone else at the end yeah and continuing with that metaphor there is usually in the hero's journey that wise character that hands the tool the sword the map the ring whatever ever to the hero that allows them across cross the threshold and achieve their goal but it's never like a full map traumatic yeah. That's another sort of jumping off point but I've heard it said many times. Where are the elders yeah? Our elders have not gone through what we've gone through they they were not born into the Internet they were not born in the transition of the Internet. They're barely keeping on keeping up with what's going on and and things are moving so fast that they'll never keep up so we're in need of new elders. We basically have to be the this Internet generation the millennials we have to kind of establish a system in our own own ranks to kind of push people through wisdom to be the elders for the next generation because we're we're basically in that crossing the threshold state. There's just not no one who's map this territory ahead of us. Barely I mean some people art but they're they're barely older than we are there any anything that you guys wanted to say before before we wrap up to give a shoutout to your course and the fact that you are doing some of the you're providing some of these tools that we've talked about yeah sure well the the courses can be divided into two parts. There is sovereignty so how to get clarity in in your perception your sense making your agency. There's a lot of stuff to do with deconstruction one of the mind and that one the second part is about shadow work which is about facing your demons facing the shadow union sense <hes> which I think is pretty much a necessity to be able to participate in the collective intelligence that you you know a lot of us are trying to converse about in these types of conversations and also to able to contribute meaningfully to the world without acting out those unconscious traumas or issues that you can find it <hes> courses dot future you think dot org and then our podcast future thinkers dot org yeah and we're also planning some retreats <hes> that are going to be probably in Bulgaria or Portugal to start and then who knows where else <hes> that put these things into practice and create the in person community for people to be able to participate in this work great and you guys I know are doing these retreats. I was hoping to talk about that a bit come come on one and then and then you'll definitely have most talk about yeah. We'll do cultural exchange yeah yeah the men the men's work we we've been doing for quite a long time since we we set up our men's group found it really useful and then and expanded into firstly daylong workshops and then a whole weekend based on the Hero's journey that I I genuinely think it's about as powerful a two-day processes there there is out there having done a lot of this kind of work quite a while it really it gives people an opportunity to a real opening to make changes in their lives which is ultimately all all we can do is create a kind of a space for people to make the change because it's up to them to to to put them into practice but it's also in the in the retreat is about empowering the guys to create the men's group to support each other off the woods to to use that space to <hes> to capitalize to empower them to support themselves. which is all we can do really? I think very cool yeah. We'll definitely come to those kill great. It's been a real pleasure and I look forward to the part two and saying where this conversation leads next. I'm sure we'll be all both of us will be kind of interviewing whoever the next people to surface in this evolving conversation wherever wherever they come from yeah yeah thank God. It's been really enjoyable yeah. This has been great all right. That's it for this episode for all the mentions and links from this episode good future dot org slash one on one. If you WANNA stay up to date with our latest episodes blog posts or news from future thinkers join our mailing list at future thinkers dot org slash mailing list to meet like minded people join our future thinkers discord community go to future thinkers dot org slash discord shutter new course in personal revolution part one is on cultivating sovereignty and is designed to support you in developing more clarity about your direction and purpose in life making better decisions and having more agency to live your life on your own terms partout is on integrating the shadow and is designed to support you in overcoming nihilism and tapping into inner source of energy creativity and wisdom to make meaningful progress towards actualising your full potential to learn more go to courses dot future thinkers dot org don't forget to subscribe and hit the Abell icon to get notified of new videos. You can also follow us on social media to stay connected if you'd like to get a t shirt like the new make America think again go to future thinkers dot org slash store if you like what we do you want to help us make more podcasts and videos.

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Violinist Tessa Lark and Bassist Michael Thurber Co-Host From the Top

From the Top with Host Christopher O'Riley

1:03:01 hr | 1 year ago

Violinist Tessa Lark and Bassist Michael Thurber Co-Host From the Top

"This message comes from NPR sponsor xfinity some things are slow like a snail races other things are fast like Xfinity X. by get get fast speeds even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply from NPR. It's from the top celebrating the power of music in the hands of America's here are today's co-hosts Violinist Tessa Lark and bassist composer. Michael Thurber the gum everybody how we doing today all right that was that was okay but this is an unbelievably monumental Dave for Tessa and I were here in this beautiful hall it's an Incredible Fall Day Ladies and gentlemen how you doing do it today we've got an incredible show in I personally think the most incredible part about it is that this is a major milestone tone for Tessa and I to be back here hosting from the top at New England conservatories Jordan Hall in Boston s right I'm going to tell you a little about why it's so exciting for us yes we were both forever changed by from the top as teenagers I was actually on the show for my first time when I was thirteen years old and I was on the show for the first time when I was seventeen and I'm not going to tell you what your that is because I don't want to reveal how old I am now as many moons let's just put it that way but a lot of of life has gone on in between and it's especially phenomenal for me to be here my Alma Mater New England conservatory in the stunning Jordan Hall being here for another from the top show but also that Michael and I have come full circle and from being alumni to being guest hosts on this show it's absolutely phenomenal and to be working with these incredible young artists is absolutely inspiring they really are incredible since we were their age a lot has happened contests that you've you've done all right for yourself one tons of major awards the number which is not the least of which and you're making this huge name for yourself recording all these albums and playing with major orchestras not only with classical music but staying true to your Kentucky bluegrass roots that's to kind of you Michael but I think a lot of credit goes into you and the amazing things that you've been doing for twenty percent of my checks say this stuff yeah same with the same thing over here but you've I've been my gosh playing bass on shows like the late show with Stephen Colbert in the house band playing classical and jazz bass and also composing along along the way some performance music as well as for Broadway musicals doing just incredible things out there we've tried to stay busy I try to pull my weight but did you know despite everything that's happened in the last ten years in our hearts we're still exactly like all of these kids that you're going to meet today on this show so so without any further ado let's bring some of them out shall we yes onstage getting ready to go is the COLECO quartet an amazing things string quartet made up of teenagers from the New York area and they're violinist Lena Marie Stoger is at the Mike and Lena congratulations you're receiving one of our Jack Kent Cooke Young Artists Awards thank you it's absolutely amazing and would you be kind enough to introduce us to the rest of your members of the Quartet of course so we have changed low on first violin myself on Second Violin Kevin Wallace on Viola and Andrew Wallis on cello what are you going to be playing we'll we'll be paying on Beethoven opus eighteen number four the first movement thank you so much and whenever you're ready go ahead and take it from the top yeah eh Jude They uh-huh Yeah yeah uh-huh they do uh-huh mm-hmm you ah and and the COLECO Lecoq court said ages seventeen eighteen years old from the New York area playing the opening movement from Beethoven's string quartet in C minor opus eighteen the number four Chang you low and Lina Marie Stober on the violins Kevin Wallace played viola and his twin brother Andrew Wallace performed armed on the cello. The COLECO Cortez appearance is supported by Associated Chamber music players guys are amazing phenomenal nominal yeah I know there's one set of twins amongst you all but I would be convinced by your ensemble that you all are quadruplets 'cause you just totally nailed it this Oh unbelievably moving and expressive and something that I don't get to hear that much in string quartet playing is that you have a great grounded nece and boldness and you're playing but at the same time very lean drive to you're playing and that's just so so difficult to do in a large ensemble like this of four four players so bravo to you all really really I have to send you a personal shoutout for your great work on First Violin just amazing precision and passionate at the same time playing all those crazy notes but I know when I'm in that hot seat I'm also freaking out about a bunch of other things including my colleagues traditionally they're looking for cues from you what what challenges if any have you found sitting I file in seat I think what's difficult about that specific role in the string quartet like other than note it is that there is a responsibility of having to keep everyone together and at the same time you have to make sure like you're part because it's in a higher register than everyone everyone else won't cover the other parts that are also important at the same time so it's like with difficult is maintaining a balance between having the role of something like a conductor but also making sure that you don't cover other parts and making sure that there's a balance in the group wearing many hats at the same time a really sophisticated way of looking at it no wonder you guys sound so mature and incredible it's it's really beautiful playing you also didn't arrive to this point by accident right I mean I know you guys rehearsed like crazy as a matter of fact if you don't mind I heard a story about one of the ways that you rehearse it was something kind of crazy like you guys play together in pitch black darkness is that right injured can you walk us through this one a little bit so we were playing the mendelssohn string quartet there was a very difficult part that we had to keep together and we had the eye contact I think we needed to go the next level to make it perfect so we had the icon died down but I think Cheney brought up the idea of going in the dark dark there were no windows in our practice room so we turn the lights it was pitch black and you're focused on sensing breath and our breaths and body language anguish and movements and turned out very well and we played very together gosh well I'll have to dry that being in the dark look for perfection that way I think we're GONNA we're gonNA steal that one would probably I mean that's one great story but you probably have a lot of and you've been playing together for a long time yeah we've been playing together for doc about nine years me engine Kevin and then chain you I'm I met a few years ago and so you can tell so you guys are incredible thank you so much for playing for for us the COLECO three teenagers from the New York area podcast from the top featuring interviews and music not heard on the radio broadcast are available at from the top dot org over the last thirteen years from the top and the Jack Kent and Cooke Foundation have awarded over three million dollars in scholarships to talented young musicians who have financial need we still have more to give go to from the top dot Org to learn more Tessa why thank you Joanne Michael and I now we get we get this great pleasure of collaborating with an amazing sixteen year old cellist from Radford Virginia his name is David Smith and the three of us are going to perform the Vivat j from the Viola Ola dicamba Sonata number three in g minor by Johann Sebastian Bach now Bach originally wrote this music for Viola dicamba as the title would imply and also for avocado which is sort of a secondary company mental part that's usually played on the Harpsichord so obviously it was not written for our instruments originally originally tested and I are kind of used to making Bach work for our two instruments because there's not allowed written for Bass and violin but to have David this incredible cellists here with us to play this is a real pleasure so we'll go get set up and do this uh-huh uh-huh Eh and yeah in that was the opening movement of the Viola Da Gama Sonata number three in G minor by J S Bach and though a sixteen in your old cellist David Smith from Radford Virginia and performing with me on the violin and my co host Michael Thurber on the Double Bass so amazing so good that is hard music man these hard for me you make it look we were startled cute credible that's not easy to play on unshowy recognized that coolness under pressure I think it might have to do with a little similarity that we have between each other we're both southern kids who writes I was born and raised in Kentucky and you're in from Radford Virginia which I think is in a rural part of Virginia is that right where exactly is that yeah Redford is in like the southwestern end Virginia now it's surrounded by mountains and it's on the new river and is a very beautiful place but it very rural so so then you're classical cellist from a rural rural parts of the US how in the world did that happen. How'd you get to the cello yes we'll since in the area I live there's no school orchestras is were anything like that it's very hard to get into classical music or music in general but my mom please the flu and he was part of a folk band that rehearsed in our house every week nick and when I was five I would just sit on the floor and just listen to the music and I was also mesmerized with the bassist and actually yeah I know how that is but whenever they would take a break and he'd put the base down I would go over and start plucking the strings and then my mom would look out the window later and I would be in in the yard with two sticks Boeing them together so she was like okay well we have to do something with him so it wasn't just just music and family and beautiful mountains for you in Virginia was it we heard that you guys had some unusual pets yeah we started good are exotic pet adventure with a poisonous toad is kind of useless because he couldn't hold it or anything 'cause it was poisonous and then so we treated raided the poisonous toad for a California king snake that wasn't very nice and then we got a corn snake which is we still have the corn snake and Severi Anjelica little snake and I had Pet Madagascar hissing cockroaches also have a Cockatiel and I have a pet towards so do you ever issues with these animals like interacting with the natural wildlife in Virginia or do you keep them contained well there was one incident president about two years ago when the California King Snake with a bad attitude managed to get out of its cage but we were terrified who's going to like leap out of the Sofa or something and bite us that's very understandable all right so in honor of this snake getting getting loose in the house we are going to play a little game so this is how it's GonNa work there's an old African saying about snakes and I'm going to start the expression in let's see if either of you can make a guess at how this expression ends okay so this is the way it starts if a snake is in the House Dot Dat Dat David let's start with you so if a snake is in the house so the housing give the problems someone else that's a good idea that's probably what I would do okay Tessa your turn if a snake is in the house if a snake snake is in the house it's worth two in the Bush Nice that was good you were reaching that's great okay okay okay here it is this is the real one if a snake is in the house there is no need to discuss its length it on that note David this was so amazing to have you here give him a round of applause David Smith the sixteen from Radford Virginia now we've got an original piece guitar up next on the show played by its composer composer please welcome from Dartmouth Massachusetts eighteen year old Thatcher Harrison it will you introduce this piece of yours it would be my pleasure. I will be performing an original composition entitled titled Iris At Sunrise ooh the Thatcher Harrison eighteen years old from Dartmouth Massachusetts performed performed his own composition iris at Sunrise Thatcher's performance is part of new music series supported in part by the amphion foundation and and the Aaron Copland Fund for Music That was unbelievable you're very kind to thank you so captivating and and so pure and it just takes me to a totally new world and extremely entrancing distances along the way really stunning so how how did such a gorgeous piece come come about for about a year I had a regular Gig once a month as a guitarist in a church in African Methodist Piscopo chairs and the functions of my job where that I were to arrive one hour early perform virtually one hour of Baugh and then perform the music for the service whenever the hymns were for that week so on one particular service the reverend was teaching Sunday school class and was late for whatever reason so I had to keep playing so I figured the best step would be simply to improvise so I basically improvise the peace in some form and I m provides all the time and a lot of what I write actually comes from improvisations at least on the guitar but at the end of the service my father came up to me and he said what what was that last piece that you played and it was I didn't actually remember that improvised improvised because the service had just gone on said what do you mean he said that that last piece I remembered Oh of course said what piece was that and I said your guess is as good as mine it's amazing ran around applaud Dr Harrison eighteen from Dartmouth Massachusetts checkup from the tops new video Docu Docu series where music lives hosted by Kevin Lucia of the Grammy Award winning Acapella group Pentatonic meet fantastic and musicians in their own communities at from the top dot org support for NPR comes from this station and from the bulge foundation supporting programs that conserve natural resources educate children and promote classical music from the Jack Kent Cooke Foundation Providing Scholarships to high I achieving students with financial need J. K. C. F. Dot Org and from the EC MC foundation celebrating five years of philanthropy and and supporting efforts to improve post-secondary education for underserved students learn more at Eighty C MC foundation dot Org It's I UH-HUH TOM FROM NPR we are it's from the top celebrating the power of music in the hands of America's kids this week we're coming to you from New England Conservatory Jordan all in Boston coming up our guest hosts Tessa Larkin Michael Thurber perform their own composition with the fantastic teenage and Sambol we heard earlier in the program the Coleco Coretec Tat Tessa Joanne thanks so much joining us now on the stage is an amazing very young long pianist from nearby Westford Massachusetts please help me in welcoming eleven-year-old Juliet Joe the Julia could you tell these fine people what you're about to play I'm going to be playing Chopin's nocturne In d flat the major Oprah's twenty-seven number two okay whenever you're ready you can take it from the top thank you mm-hmm Julia Joe Oh eleven from Westford Massachusetts Played Chopin's knocked turn his twenty-seven number two the Julia that was incredible just totally silent you could hear a pin drop in here it's amazing so beautiful yet always taken by your poise as a human in as a player and he'll behind a lot of wonderful young artists is an amazing teacher and that's no exception action rights you have a teacher you said that inspires you not just musically but also in life definitely my teacher Mr Ronald Back Not only does he teach teach me about piano he teaches me a lot otherwise to although he's in his seventies he has been running the Boston marathon every year sure I think for the past forty six years running his forty seventh this coming April his and I mean I mean he teaches me from running turn never give up and even when things are hard and just keep on doing what I love because I love it that's incredible so so glad that you love the music and that you have a teacher that inspires you to to keep going my gosh I don't think I'm going on thirty years of no running whatsoever so I A- amazing to me same same but he's the only overachiever you you also in addition to playing piano you play violent as well as that right yes in how do you find the balance like not only just for you as a player but also did you feel like they help each other they help you become a better musician let's say they complement each other I guess since I started playing violin I it made me like pickup generally easily because I could read the music and then likewise helps me read music for violin sure and I get exposed more styles that way not just classical music absolutely absolutely yeah that's a great repertoire but I've just got to know yes which is harder piano writer or as Viacom I I have to say the violence harder just before why is that Violin Carter I agree violence harder because you have to focus a lot on intonation and tone quality would you don't have to do on piano and that's really hard yeah I agree so I'm going to tell all my piano collaborators from now on that Julia Joe told me that violent is harder partner and piano seems like you have pretty much everything figured out between your your future as you're going to beat his record for forty seven years of marathon running right you're playing two instruments you've got most of it figured out but you did say that you had one really big goal yes something that you're really trying to accomplish what what what is that so my one big in very unlikely goal is to become the first human to play live music in Space Whoa Oh my God the idea toes in sixth grade we are studying astronomy and science class and Dan Six this year is the fiftieth anniversary of the Apollo Eleven. We've been studying a lot about that and I thought about it I was like Oh that'd be really interesting listings I'll say yeah so yeah getting to know you I'm pretty sure there's going to be a way for you to play on I don't know like the moon I I agree I I actually I can just see it commander Joe the Houston didn't report position and status of Lunar Performance Piano Pod Houston out a great day on the service Houston Lunar Piano Pawn position stabilized stabilized instrument reading par affirmative requesting permission to deep pressure is and initiate stage platform relief green light to depressurize commander Joe Good Luck tastic work the American people want to know what you're going to play can you report Houston out Houston I'm playing cleared alone of cars on the Moon Well defy the laws of physics by Julia. You're pretty amazing so I think you're GonNa make it happen give her a round of applause the Julia Joe Eleven years old from Westford Massachusetts Michael having just released a fantastic album as a duo titled Invention it combines their performances of two part inventions by J S Bach along with new music music of their own invention you can find it by going to Lark and Thurber dot com from the top musicians want to change the world for the better and we're here here to support them that's why from the top offers leadership training to all of our young musicians and we're out there with them doing community engagement projects across the country learn more about our programs that from the top dot org my name he's extrordinary turnoff I meeting years old I studied the interlocking art security I play the trumpet and I come from Macedonia your very professor in my old high school she told me about interlocking I didn't think I'd get in but I recorded everything and I was accepted Eh full scholarship my parents didn't have enough money for the tickets and for the visa fees I I I was decided that I was gonna come and that was when I decide something it's there is not it can change so I get to play in bars with my band and play folk songs in order to make money do labor work in grandparent's village I got the money and Dan I finally got to the summer camp at Interlocken interlocken everything was different. I'll never forget I was playing in the band and we had our first reverse even on the tuning naught I hear how the band sounds and I'm like Oh my God this is where I belong this is where I where I need to play and I grew up so much onced at some so I thought to myself why not try and apply to go to the interlock and Arts Academy for the whole year but I also didn't feel like I belong in the society I was leaving back in Macedonia in Sedonia life is only good for a small group of people for the other very large group almost ninety five percent of the people the life is rough my generation is is getting tricked by the government so so they will not focus on the real problems is that are going on in our society how everything is very corrupted and my generation is not even trying to fight that and musically your your parents had to have a lot of money or higher political start to she order for you to get promoted no matter how good or how bad it was they always told me that I was not good enough and they told me that I'll never make it and for me it seemed there was no hope you can live on very little food and water but what the person can leave without us After the summer camp they hit me to a special dish it was the best audition I've ever played in my life and they accepted me now I found a community that will accept me the way I am and who I am the professor Mr Larson is one of the best trumpet players in the war the piece I'm about to play for you now is the same piece I play it at the final edition for Interlocken Arts Academy his the last movement of the Sonata Not for trumpet and Piano Etiquette ways in and I'll be performing with pianist drunk a bank good evening the UH uh-huh in the uh the Alexander Ton Eighteen for Macedonia now studying at the Interlocken Art Academy performed the Third Movement from era the ways in Sinatra for trumpet and and a big thank you to my friend Joe Bong who collaborated berated with Alexander at the piano that was just amazing though we were getting to know each other a little bit the last few days you told me on a few occasions and also also the team here that you really wanted the opportunity on air to think many of the people that helped you get here today and we would love to give you that opportunity so please yes first of all I wanted to thank trump teachers Bacon Macedonia Professors what offends offended Alexander Nikolsky also I want to thank the Trumpet Teachers With who have studied here Professor Visiting Martino his son Governor Martinez you know Professor John Aly Maher crease and of course my amazing Professor Ken Laird who is in the audience today with us and I wanNA thank them I also want to thank all the people here in the United States I've met some truly fantastic and very good people people here I want to thank my friend Jake Appearin His Family Mr Joanne Ms Peggy period because they helped me here while I'm in the United States they provide me a place to stay on breaks and everything they helped me along and also I want to thank the whole interlocken a a center for tuition out of people who worked there always donors it's on amazing institution who helped me grow in these two a years I also want to say thanks to the from the top and twelve the organization who is behind these and through to the Jack Kent Cooke Doc Foundation because I wouldn't be here with all them and I want to thank my family my close family early and of course my mom and Dad who support me go through all of all of this and showed me he never way they can and is just I wouldn't be here without those people and this I feel so grateful and thank you

Tessa Lark NPR Julia Joe Eleven Houston Joe Good America commander Michael Thurber COLECO Cortez Houston Lunar Piano Pawn Interlocken interlocken Thatcher Harrison Massachusetts Macedonia Dartmouth Massachusetts J S Bach Westford Associated Chamber professor
The Fantastic Paquito D'Rivera joins From the Top / Show 383

From the Top with Host Christopher O'Riley

59:19 min | 8 months ago

The Fantastic Paquito D'Rivera joins From the Top / Show 383

"From NPR. It's from the top celebrating the power of music in the hands of America's here's our host pianist. Peter do bing everyone welcome. We're in New England Conservatory Jordan Hall in Boston and folks. We have a big show freon from the top. It's a special one because we have fourteen time Grammy Award winner the inimitable Kito Data. It has been an honor. It has been a privilege and it's just been a blast to collaborate with this legendary artists. The past few days he has this just incredible joy about him which is infectious in the best way possible. And he's going to be spreading that joy with all of you later in the program when he comes out to interview and collaborate with our young performers. But since we're in Boston we're going to start with a local hero. Please welcome fourteen year old. Benjamin Shar from Newton Massachusetts. Then will you please introduce what you're going to play to begin our program? Yeah sure I'm going to play Beethoven's G Major Sonata and I WANNA play the first movement and I know this piece really resonates with you right. Yeah it really does a Beethoven. Wrote it at a young age so I feel like it connects to me as well because I'm still very young. And it's a very delicate and energetic piece. Well whenever you're ready. Please take it from the top. Thank you Benjamin shed fourteen. Newton Massachusetts performed the Allegra from Beethoven Sonata in G major of his fourteen member to Ben. Thank you so much for that. Charming delightful performance. It's really a treat to have some early. Beethoven on the program and I thought you did a great job of bringing that sense of humor to the peace thank you. You seem to me quite confident when you're when performing do you ever get nervous or is that just not really an issue for you at some point we all do. Get nervous before my heart pumping and like it here during the performance but I do tend to let all my tensions flow of during the performance. Relax that's great going into that flow state. Yeah I sense that now. I know your dad has been especially influential to you musically. What does he play well? He plays all the John as you can name. Jazz Classic Rock even some Blues. He also plays a lot of instruments and he also composes. A lot of songs he even. Sometimes it makes me sing them with him nice but they're all really great songs. I Love Them. And sometimes you you guys jam out together like you play basis. Well Yeah I do. I play a little bit of base I Dabble Olympian the classic rock with him and he teaches me some new stuff on the base because he also plays Bass. I know you guys like jamming to Zeppelin and yeah all roses Zeppelin. Acdc classics right on now. I know that you know you love playing on stage. Obviously but also. I heard that you really value the way that you can have an emotional release with music in the sort of quiet solitary moments in life as well yeah. I do like to let my emotions going piano whenever I'm mad when it doesn't matter what mood I'm in. I always just go to the piano. I just love the instrument. You have this really touching story about a cathartic moment with Chopin nocturne. Yeah so my at the time my grandma has had recently passed. It was after the funeral and I just let my heart sing. Whatever like whatever I was feeling on during the nocturne it was really emotional moment. It was very sad. That's that's beautiful. I also recently lost my grandmother and she happened to be my first piano teacher. So you know I. I know how how important music can be in those emotional moments. And it's awesome that you have music as a way of expressing that and as an outlet. Thank you so much Ben for being with us today. Thank you for having me. Thank you for sharing that performance. It was a pleasure Benjamin. Show our age fourteen. Newton Massachusetts the Latin jazz giant Akita. They'd be better is with us today to meet and collaborate with from the top's wonderful young performers now. Why clarinetist famous for Latin jazz on a show. That's all about classically trained musicians. Well because Paquito could have and would have come on this show as a kid. By the age of ten he sold with a major orchestra and throughout his career. He's maintained that connection to classical music. Composing award-winning Works of Chamber and Symphonic Music for some of the world's top on Samba and players including an exciting new double concerto that he'll premier with Yo Yo ma in just a few months. Now wait till you hear this title. This is very typical paquito. It's called the rice and beans concerto and he explained to me that Yoyo is the rice and he's the beans so let's bring out the beans. Please welcome the one and only bucket though. Welcome welcome to the program and thank you so much for being with us wonderful. Spend a couple of days wonderful days around these wonderful. See Boston as you know. Becky brought back a superb alum guitarist to perform I with you. She was on the show last year and she's now doing the Harvard New England Conservatory Dual Degree program which is infamously difficult and she's thriving there. She's from New York City and her name is remote AC. It's so great to have you back on the program. It's been over a year since I last saw you. How are you feeling about getting to play with Book Ito? It is literally a dream. Come True Meister will introduce what you will be playing together. I don't remember what we're going to turn this is. I rolled inspired in an plan in a flower called the Florida. Am also known as Mar. Go My my my father used to plan those in the garden and home and is our is Venezuelan holborn. Any any of Minnesota's around here the Venezuela is the few over there. Yeah the out all over the place no welcome. Venezuela always is wonderful ribbon six eight. I call it the great. Whenever you're ready you can take it from the CIA. All right Uh-huh the top Remote Act Nineteen New York City with my guest co host clarinettist. Peter Rivera performed pepitas piece in the fluid and arranged by. Joel Louise Angie. This piece is part of from the tops. New Music series made possible with support from the ambient foundation and the Aaron Copland Fund for Music Paquito. You've learned quite a bit about rea- getting to know each other and rehearsing the past couple days. So I think you should talk joy rea- even before I met her musically. I admire in this young armies because coming from a totalitarian country. Yemen excited here. I appreciate very much the way you speak. What is your mind and that for me saying that Shiffman some. Sometimes we don't. We don't use the these these privileges that we have not to speak some people. Keep quiet you know. He's been not to say no. It's always good to save something. Am I the way that you use your your your art to to promote human rights and the rights of the people in? Can't you take you about that yet? So this winter break. I spent a month and a half in India which is where my family's from and political and economic climate there is pretty messed up to put it mildly the administration essentially enacted a bill that prohibits. Muslims from getting citizen ship status as refugees. So while I was there I was out on the streets protesting and the most beautiful thing to see. Was that the thing that was sustaining. All of these folks on the streets from all walks of life was art. The music the poetry that was being recited songs that were being sung so it was very powerful to be. There is interesting how you can remain family this by religious. Your one of your parents is Hindu and the other one is about. I hope Yeah I love my parents. My mom is suing made. I just Muslim but I was raised in a pretty secular way so I got to experience the most beautiful parts of each religion. I've really enjoyed hearing you to talk and even more so hearing you to play that incredible piece of music together Paquito. You'll be back in just a few minutes Andrea. I know. We're going to be hearing so much more from you in the future. Both musically and out in the community. Thank you so much our alum from New York City and superb our special guest today. Petito de Rivera has had a legendary career and has received countless honors for his work including the National Medal for the Arts and the Jazz Masters Award from the National Endowment for the arts PA- has been torn for over fifty years and he's written a wonderful book. It's called letters two years ago and it's a series of letters to a young student discussing music learning and life. It's available advocate. Odor Rivera Dot Com for the last fifteen years from the top and the Jack Kent. Cooke Foundation have awarded over. Three million dollars in scholarships to talented young musicians who have financial need. We still have more to give go to from the top dot Org to learn more Peter. Thanks Jim well if it wasn't for the fact that she plays a rather large instrument. Our next musician could've walked here. She lives just a few blocks away here in Boston. It's thirteen year old harpist. Olivia Lee and she's going to perform the minstrels ado to his native land by John. Thomas Uh-huh thirteen from here in Boston performed the minstrels Ado. To his native land by John a beautiful theme and variations and Olivia you played it with such poise and melodic elegance. It was really really wonderful. Thank you so who is this composer John Thomas and John? Thomas is a Welsh composer and he was a royal harpist for Queen. Victoria and I think that's very cool. I think so too and I felt like you. Totally transported as back to the Victorian Age that performance. Now we have a lot of kids from the top talk about how music teaches them discipline. But I know for you. You'll learn disciplined long before you even started playing the heart. Yeah I actually did figure skating competitively competitive figure skating and I practice three to four hours every day. Not only on. The iceberg are faced with workout and stretching. So and. How old were you when you started figure? Skating is four years old. I think it's really interesting because to me. Figure skating is like the most elegant of the sports and the harp in a way you could argue is the most elegant of the instruments but both require a tremendous amount of athleticism. So it seems fitting that you went from one to the other now. I've always thought of. The Harp is a rather solitary instrument but I know for you actually love the social aspect of it so talk about that. It seems like they're not a lot of people playing the harp. But when you go into competitions or other harpists. It's very interesting because you can see her. It's not an daily basis. You're saying you're too so harpists unite. Yeah I know you feel that way an orchestra to write like League Orchestra. I see another harpist and it's very exciting because I've never seen one before big orchestra with a lot of instrument so K. harpist bonding time. I love that. Thank you so much for being with us. Nubian thirteen here in Boston Massachusetts checkup from the tops video docu series where music lives hosted by Kevin Scholla of the Grammy Award Winning Capella Group. Penta tonics meet fantastic musicians in their own communities at from the top dot org support for. Npr comes from this station and from the Massachusetts Office Travel and tourism offering a new way to explore with itineraries for arts culture and history in Boston and beyond the journey begins at mass vacation dot com from the John. D and Catherine T. MacArthur foundation supporting creative people and effective institutions committed to building a more just verdant and peaceful world. More information is it. Mac FOUND DOT ORG and from Americans for the arts from NPR. It's from the top celebrating the power of music in the hands of America's kids this week we're coming to you from New England Conservatory Jordan. All in Boston coming up our special guests the Latin jazz virtuoso and composer paquito Rivera performs. The clarinet duo with a teenager from here in the Boston area. Here again is our host pianist. Peter Dugan joining us now is eighteen year old soprano will gina present. She's from Miami Florida. Jeannie hi I tell everyone what you're going to be singing today. I Will Sing Paul Record to Pal petty by ISA LEBRON AND COBRAS. Such an interesting composer. She has a wonderful story which is that. She was a star deavere. She was married for a time to Rossinian and was a great influence and inspiration to him and she also wrote songs and making her an early singer songwriter. So while I go over to the Piano. Will you share with everyone? What this song is all about? This song is about heartbreak Poor heart soul that that pouch tate's because they have lost their dear one Cool Who Heard positive twenty four tonnes teen by Isabella Engine Co. drawn performed by eighteen year old lady Gina present for Miami. Gina is one of our Jack. Kent Cooke Young Artists and I had the great privilege and joy of performing with you. That was so much fun and I love how you brought the text to life with the way he pronounced every word and just expressed it now to me. You know you're obviously an actress. You obviously have the voice. It's like you were born for opera. But I know that at first singing was a little scary for you yeah I had so many insecurities and singing is is I have to say. It's like a hard art to master because you're vulnerable in front of everyone. It's your body that you're using and everything that's internal including your experiences so for me. It's like I have an instrument that I can sort of hide behind so I have so much admiration for you to be able to put yourself out there like that now. I know that your elementary school years were also little tough with with confidence at times. Who can you talk about that? Yeah elementary sucked. I got bullied a lot for things that I couldn't help things that I couldn't change that Mother Nature wouldn't change the fact that I was black or Haitian or short Yeah so I got bullied. A lot and threw out those events Many insecurities built up but I always had my family then grounded me and really helped me to gain confidence and also my teachers who helped me as I started to sing in mastering like my nerves and it really helps me through that and I know that you also call your church your other family. Yeah so how does how does that work? And how does that help you through times like this? Church is a family because every time someone is in need or has a problem. We're always there to support. Always there to give even though we don't have a lot of a lot to give but we're always there supporting and helping each other up and it's it's just great. Isn't that where you first started singing? Yes began in the church choir and I. I made so many mistakes. I would make so many mistakes when I saying but it helped me to feel comfortable being raw and authentic. So Yeah and how wonderful that you were doing it in such a supportive environment and help you feel that same support here because from the top is a family for you now to thank you welcome? Thank you Gina. Gina has in the Miami from the top musicians. Want to change the world for the better. And we're here to support them. That's from the top offers leadership training to all of our young musicians and we're out there with them doing community engagement projects all across the country. Learn more about our programs at from the top dot. Org podcast of from the top include music talk not featured on the radio broadcast. They're available every week at from the top DOT ORG or wherever. You get your podcasts Peter. Thanks Joanne the fantastic Cuban American clarinetist and composer. Petito Rivera has been meeting and working with our young musicians on today's program. And he's back on stage with me right now. Partito before we have you meet and collaborate with our next young musician I wanted to just take a moment to ask you a question about your own childhood so happened a long time ago. Like some of the kids on from the top you were already performing professionally when when you were just a kid. So who is your greatest influence at that time? Well my father when I influenced classic Saxophone player he knew how the ability to improvise but he he loved the sound of Lesser Yawn. Stan Getz I cannot blame him for that. And so I grew up in a very music of environmental defense on my father was people like Chico or initially Qurna wonderful composer. Chow people that you know so I I got a happy childhood. A musically speaking there was no distinction on division of music. You know as I say before my follows a classic Bloomberg but he played Jazz. He came home with the with the An L. P. O. Benny Goodman. That was my first really heavy influence. Yup No it was a male be Albany that a famous constantly. Nineteen thirty eight Danny Hall. That it'll be came out in nineteen fifty-six and my father used to play that back to back to our Ben Goodman's rendition of the Mozambican. Charitable Graham wonderful. So it was a great communication because he played things. What is that well? This has been a good clean swing at Carnegie Hall. So wow we say Garni whole to Carney. Horn is a no no no no I said? The New York grew up listening to many different my advice to every student. Don't like these wonderful that we have here. Don't concentrate in. Just one type of music is just music are the same twelve. Sounds except for the union guys live read? I know they have more. This is just music is important to absorb the the absorb the influence on the beautiful. I'm version or different styles of music. Well I know that our next young performer also has a teacher who is encouraged him to explore into the jazz realm as well as classical. And we're going to get to talk to him in a moment but first let's hear him play ladies and gentlemen. Our next young player comes from nearby. Westwood Massachusetts his name is Noah Stone. He's a clarinetist. Just like the Maestro here and we're going to hear him play. Bass clarinet right now knows performing the fourth movement of a work called cookbook by the American composer Kenji Bunch. I'll be over at the piano and this movement has a great Spanish title but to avoid you having to hear my less than authentic Spanish accent in your would you please give us the name of this movement now all know chair in La Casa del Taco. Very very funny very funny. I see what you did there now for the sake of Radio. Can we have beautifully? Said one one more time just just with the perfect accent come on you know. I have my own accent now. Demar nausea in La Live Flamingo. Cassius Sim- impacted To ask took off from report Nineteen year old Noah stone from Westwood Massachusetts. Perform the fourth movement of cookbook by Kenji Bunch. And no himself adapted it for Bass Clarinet. This piece is part of from the tops. New Music series made possible with support from the amphion foundation and the Aaron Copland Fund. For Music. I'm Peter Dugan and I performed with no at the piano and on the phone. I was not sitting on a piano bench. I was sitting on this beautiful little Peruvian box which I then got to play a little which was a lot of fun. Thank you for letting me jam with you know. Of course thank you. That was bad man. Now takito when you heard that we're going to have musician on the show who plays regular B flat clarinet but also bass clarinet. You're quite impressed. So I want the two of you to talk a little bit. That is one of my favorite instrument either bass clarinet. Yeah is is is is sound so beautiful but it's so hard to to get a good sound out of it and how can you decide to become bass grenades east so in eighth grade? My clarinet teacher suggested I take base as a ways to improve my breath support so I started it then and I was really just using it as a tool than as an instrument and then in tenth grade I went to a concert. That former chamber coach had invited me to and she was bass clarinet there and they went and it was some of the most incredible playing. I've heard and made me realize that this instrument can actually do some amazing things and I thought to myself right then. Well I can't stay satisfied with how I am so I can neither learned to play this thing or give it up and I've chosen first option and as as I've gone more as played it more in orchestral rap. I'm realizing that bass clarinet parts. Especially significant parts are few and far between but you use this instrument only when nothing else can get that sound and you end up with some incredible lines blending adding to blend with the first fleet the English and the Tuba. You know you are a brother or the amazing. Classical music is seen here in Boston. What makes the training of these cities? So great wow well. There are a lot of things. I've been very fortunate to have a supportive family and incredible teachers to see me all the way through but the Boston has a lot to offer for middle and high school music groups so I was a part of the prep on Sunday and the Boston Youth symphony orchestras for several years and in India's groups. There's a cycle of your given very high expectations. So you go home and practice really hard to play better so the expectations just keep raising and just snowball effect over a number of years. But every ensemble I've been apart of has also just had this wonderfully supportive atmosphere so that it doesn't feel like work and that's a dream that's a great environment to be able to be learning in. Well now you're in your first year in college and so before the show. We asked if you'd give any advice to kids coming up behind you in high school and I love what you had to say. Okay maybe halfway. Through my first semester I was feeling overwhelmed over worked with my practice and then I had this thought where maybe I should try listening to music window which seems so stupid now but it's it's easy to forget the enjoyable part one thing about going into a music. School is that practice and playing become very separate. Things and practice is very important. It's also work so you have to take time to remember. You know why you're doing this in the first place and through listening to lots of different styles of music. I've been able to feel refreshed and energized but key to someone who performs all the time. Do you ever have to take a moment to just sit back and listen to something rather than be playing or and I do that all the time. The thing is many years ago. I was in Japan with dizzy. Gillespie and there was this wonderful thing about Carmen McRae. Oh yeah in that dime very young and talented baseball that he he played all over the all over the base all over the place anyway. Impress me very much. I was very young. I don't Carmen Perman. These these are basically. He plays a lot and she's a yeah. He plays a lot by he. Don't listen I am. I am Joy Reid. This basically out. He's all are now about that. With Carmen I learn. A lesson is important to listen to reason what other museum to say. Even if he's not as good as you are everybody has something to say and you decide to go and listen to listen to. Music is is the right decision. And isn't that great lesson that we can apply to the rest of of our lives and something that is so important to learn with as a musician to listen. But then how that makes you actually just a more open human being to as hasn't center you know and I think it's I think it's really great that you brought that up. Well No. I'm happy to say that we're going to hear you again right now as we close the show with finale. And this time you'll be on your regular old b-flat clarinet playing right alongside of our special guests Paquita Rivera and I'm going to take part as well over at the piano but before we introduced that final number. I want to first say thank you to you. But it's been an honor. It's been a pleasure to have you with us and to all the young musicians today. I want to thank you for your artistry for Sharing Your Artistry and for the bravery and the passion that it takes to pursue this art form. It's really inspiring to all of us and you listening at home or in your car or walking down the street or running on your treadmill. Thank you for joining us. I'm pianist Peter Dugan. Please join from the top next week and now Kito please introduce the peace. We're going to play and maybe tell us who wrote it. These are very special for me. I A- been fun over villain composer by the name of Antonio Lauro heroes. The Most Beautiful Wall says you can imagine I record most of them they don't allow and then one day. I feel that I absorb the The style or the walls and I wrote my own swollen was dedicated to my Antonio do all the Venezuelan people struggling for their freedom and this is called yours was located to a matter Antonio okay. Let's take it from the top a From the top is written and produced by Tim. Bangor Anton vaguely with music director. Meghan swung the production managers. Deichmann with assistance from Lebanon yet abby Renzo Technical Direction by Baron Villette with John Escobar. Chris Rando Endeavour Ray Executive Director is Gretchen Nielsen. I'm Joanne Robinson. From the top as an independent nonprofit organization based in Boston if you'd like to appear in our program apply online from the top dot org from the top is supported in part by an award from the National Endowment for the Arts on the web at Arts Dot Gov support for NPR. Comes from this station and from the Volkogonov Foundation supporting programs that conserve natural resources educate children and promote classical music from the Jack Kent. Cooke Foundation providing scholarships to high achieving students with financial need J. K. C. F. Dot Org and from the E. C. M. C. Foundation celebrating five years of philanthropy and supporting efforts to improve post-secondary education for underserved students learn more at Ease C. M. C. Foundation Dot Org. Thanks for listening to this podcast you know while from the top is on NPR. It's not actually owned by NPR. It's an independent nonprofit company based in Boston and every year it takes a huge push for us to make the show happen financially. So I ask you to please consider donating to our organization so that we can bring you joy podcast after podcast go to from the top dot org and Click on support thank you.

Boston Peter Dugan Petito de Rivera Npr New York City John Jack Kent Grammy Award Paquito America Gina John Thomas Miami Massachusetts Ben Goodman Cooke Foundation Olivia Lee Beethoven Joanne Robinson Benjamin Shar
Show 375 feat. guest host & cellist Paul Katz

From the Top with Host Christopher O'Riley

1:00:08 hr | 1 year ago

Show 375 feat. guest host & cellist Paul Katz

"This message comes from NPR sponsor xfinity some things are slow like a snail races other things are fast like xfinity X. by get fast speeds even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply welcome eighteen year old cellist Anthony Choi well welcome to Boston and the home of the world champion Red Sox thank you very much anthony all of those love and passion for music they're keeping me on from NPR Nick Bridge which is a month long Summer Music Institute for Outstanding Pre Collegiate Musicians Morningside Music Bridges International in Here in Boston's New England conservatory. All the young performers you'll meet today are attending the institute and they come from places as presented in Morningside Music Bridge all the kids selected attend completely free so you can be certain there's a lot of competition to get the students attending the Summer Institute Morningside Music Bridge these kids have been so much fun to work with inspiring talented full of energy and they have masterclasses Private Lessons Chamber Music Orchestra Training and all sorts of performance opportunities including today's show here on the stage scope it began twenty three years ago as an exchange program between Canada and China sponsored by the Calgary Philharmonic one of Canada's most important verse as Palestine Poland China Canada Israel and the United States all eleven different countries are New England Conservatory Jordan Hall. Let's meet our first young performer someone who just happens to play my favorite instrument fan of from the top I've been here many times to hear previous shows I've had numerous students play on the show so it's a really Carr's over the years the institute has taken place in several different countries but recently it's found new permanent home right where we are today the Anthony everybody seems to come from far away how about you I think you're the closest to home yeah I'm actually from New York City a kick for me to be here this evening and I've been having so much fun putting this together today's show is you know is presented by Morningside the Paul thank you thank you thank you for twenty years I've been a huge uh-huh Hi is going to play together the second movement of handled Sonata for Cello is in g minor you will be at the piano talk celebrating the power of music in the hands of America's our homes uh-huh Yeah Yeah Guy in fact I love the stories that I've heard that involve your mom so let's have a little mom okay sure let's have a little talk okay I know her she's a performer and piano professor right here at New England Conservatory so she travels a lot for even though she's a musician never pushed me so hard to do music and so I think my love for music developed slowly but very authentically at a really really grateful for that the number eight thanks for doing that with a lot of fun we have great rehearsals Oh yeah very you're easy to talk to thank you an interesting the Choi eighteen join me and music from Handel Sonata for Cello is in g minor opus music but you say that fact for travel has helped you actually develop your own love for music absolutely when I was younger my mother in fact you even thought about quitting at some point and I guess your mom helped you through that one yeah that too yeah so about that so your mom also implanted a strong sense of ethics in you and you have an interesting story about a project that you did so yeah that's really something about mom's isn't it there for sure even when they're not they're they're they're seriously and around and the voices can all be alone but they interact with each other so I sort of explained to these patients that the voices in the on the eighth grade as long time ago I was doing a project on soil quality in two different parks in New York City for yeah I'd be looking at my friends playing baseball out the window and say Mama I want to go play baseball I feel you know practice it had sold selling cello I went back to yeah it reminds me of how my mom used to make me practice is a never mind mom practice that's how you find out how much cello really means yeah absolutely yeah wasted the few sort of resonated with voices in his head and the voices around him in the clinic and that had been part of his inspiration to continue treatment and thanks for projects and I I was young I was stupid I chose like the winter to do this project and the ground had completely frozen over and like I I want to play baseball and she said your choice to go play baseball I'm calling your teacher in stopping your lessons and you can go to the telephone and yeah I think it was about a month before my juilliard pre college audition I think cello stressing me out so much put down and I was like mom not doing this anymore so I went out to Riverside Park at maybe ten or eleven pm with just thermoses a boiling water that I was just throwing on the ground because my Mama Tommy better than to lies Belo dot org a global online cello community and educational website the documentary talent has hunger which features Paul was shown this season on. Okay I'M GONNA I'M GONNA sell your cello because money right and I was like okay and she was like all right I'm selling it okay they woke up the next morning had nothing to do describe the few GonNa very interesting wait share that with us absolutely so I'm part of a program called salute music that gives a monthly the including twenty six years touring the world as the cellist of the Cleveland Quartet he's received numerous awards for his teaching and ten years ago he founded Cello To learn more Paul thanks Joanne we've got the music of Gus Bar Casado Nixed the Great Catalan cellist and composer took a few is a song in which a lot of voices come together to create one big melody like even row row row your boat sure could be a few because uh that was so important and so powerful for me to realize that music is could be so powerful in somebody else's life and that that matter a two hundred P. B. S. television stations check out our interview with Paul at our website from the top dot org over the last thirteen years from the top and the Jack Kent speaking of Ethics you've done a lot of community engagement projects in the New York area and I know it when you play Fugu for your audience and you'd Cooke Foundation have awarded over three million dollars in scholarships to talented young musicians who have financial need we still have more to give from the top dot org so much to me people react to music and so many different impersonal as absolutely hell so thanks for being here very Anthony Choi Eighteen you can pick each other up as as the few goes on even wants to stop beautiful and and patient came up to me afterwards and they told me that the from the first movement of Colorado's suite for Solo Cello the prelude fantasia yeah think about frozen ground like you can't really touch okay so I went and I got like I was thinking okay I could just falsified the data it's an eighth grade benefit performances at an addiction institute and I was playing the prelude from baugh sweet five of which is at first seemed like a very sad piece but the few of the early twentieth century and to play it a thirteen year old cellist from Israel name now har- Elliot's and we're now going to hear Nhar I'm from New York they thank you today's guest host Paul tax has had a fascinating life in music answer project it's not going to matter like okay but my mom's words rubbing my head and I was like Anthony Mamata you'd better and uh ooh uh-huh The Elliot's Thirteen shipped that was the first ship that brought Jewish survivors from the Second World War Two Palestine yeah that's quite a story in Israel studying this summer at Morningside Music Bridge Right here in Boston she just played the prelude fantasia from the suite for Cilla Cello by the first time you've played for me I remember I was only eight years old remember I played for you there the pollute from the second uh-huh Hi thanks for downloading from the top's podcast I'm cellist Paul cats and I was thrilled to guest host this week's show from Boston featuring from Auschwitz and my great grandmother escaped from Warsaw Ghetto so it was really special for me to play in Poland it's like I was playing for them and it was very emotional for me how did they meet oh on the boats to Israel well but not just any mom gaspar Casado that was so passionate and Imaginative High Level Bravo Yeah but do you remember this is to your family's connection to Poland well both of migrant grandparent's ruin pull on during the Holocaust Migrate Grandfather he escaped from back that's right I went to Israel with Pearlman and you came and played for me glad remember but I got to play for the president of the United States but I was a lot older than you played for your so but and though you played for the Prime Minister of Israel that is not your most powerful musical experience and it wasn't Israel but it was in Poland Poland uh-huh they met on the exodus yes yeah well that's one of the most famous ships in the world that was a historic Um hum Ishaq was so impressed with you yes cue to play somewhere else as well he asked me to pray for a minister in Israel and I finally in Jerusalem to mm-hmm confusing wonderful well thank you for your beautiful playing in for sharing such deep strong feelings with us what did it feel like to play in Poland it's felt like I was using my voice as a cellist to like play for all of those who suffers who suffered in the war and everything piano and when you're ready take it from the top Palestine sixteen year old pianist Muhammed I'll shake same depth of feeling from Palestine it's due to the power of music to bring people together and that's what Morningside Music Bridge the heart clearly has such a depth of feeling for her Judaism and for her homeland Israel. Now we're going to meet a young pianist conflict there here thoroughly enjoying each other and each other's music here in Boston so now please welcome from Ramallah West Bank the Muhammad introduced the piece you're going to perform I'm going to play Sapan number two and F manger to the does the festival that's presenting our show today it's due to this that these two wonderful kids whose countries Israel and Palestine are locked in et Morningside Music Bridge here at New England conservatory. The summer just played the ballade in F- by Chopin while you're honest lots of excitement but I loved intimate moments in the sincerity very touching benefit at some point I had to run but I forgot that there was a car parked right behind me so I ran into it and the Muhammed Al Shea Sixteen from Ramallah on the West Bank in Palestine studying a great mouth surgeon back home in Palestine because your teeth look perfect but speaking yeah I had an injury I just finished the first two rounds of the competition no I'm not the only person that loves your Chopin you went to Chopin competition and Estonia recently right yeah but something happened you had an accident point every time I go to Jerusalem even though it's like approximately fifteen kilometers far it takes one so all the competitors were throwing snowballs at each other well yeah at some point friendly's friendly fight yeah agr but you're aware of the Palestinian cause as an artist when I played so proud also yeah you should be and you told me that you're not particularly politically active not dot too many people here I believe music and music and bring people together and I actually believe it's a musicians duty as a citizen for how has it affected your life well yeah I go to Jerusalem to study music and play piano and I have to pass a check the Mohammed Al Shaykh Sixteen from Ramallah Palestine and that's been an honor to have you on the program and I wish you every success thank you very much home growing up on the West Bank that's a war-torn area has the political conflict affected your life celebrating five years of philanthropy and supporting efforts to improve post-secondary education for underserved students learn more at Ease C. M. C. Foundation dot concert and and my mom told me to hide my teeth like I was really moved by what you told me can you repeat that for everybody my father is Muslim and my half two hours to reach wow so you endure a lot for piano lessons or do you ever feel that your endanger broke my nose and teeth so you had to play after you broke your teeth yes there was like a God other is Christian and there are no contracts ever in the family and I'm I'm so happy about that from NPR it's from the top celebrating the power of music in the hands of America's kids this week we're coming to you from Morningside Music Pinault one of one of my goals is to prove that plus Tinians are also capable of playing music yeah and I think that's foundation providing scholarships to high achieving students with financial need jk cf dot org and from the E. C. M. C. Foundation refillers monarch and the Morningside Music Bridge Foundation next up on this from the top featuring teenagers from around the world is a fine to work at the beginning I felt that the but now I got used it I told you yesterday when we were talking that I wished your family could be a role model for the World Bridge the International Summer Institute taking place here and it's new home at New England Conservatory Jordan Hall in Boston coming up our guest host the power of moms that was good advice for mom but you must have had and from the Volkogonov foundation supporting programs that conserve natural resources educate children and promote classical music from the Jack Kent Cooke six meet fantastic and musicians in their own communities at from the top dot org support for NPR comes from this station help in that way I that music can build bridges between countries and cultures and that's what Morningside Music Bridge does cellist Paul Katz joins two teenagers and Beethoven's goes trio today's show from Morningside Music Bridge is made possible with support from the Calgary some were finding to well you you you represent them beautifully and one of the reasons I chose to become a musician is because the thing I know you're playing a sonata so it's a real partnership with Europe pianist Joni Huang tell everybody what you're and there's US out yet so we decided I mean me and the competitors decided to play with snow thing I will play brimstone in F minor the Third Movement thank you uh eighteen year old from Shanghai each lane Leong please welcome hurt checkup from the top new video docu series where music lives hosted by Kevin Lucia of the Grammy Award Winning Acapella group Pentatonic the hard elliot's thirteen from Soviet in Israel and UH like quote like when I was playing discharge not only about the power of music but it's starting to sound more and more like asked after podcast go to from the top dot org and Click on support and thank you Johnny Huang was the pianist that was a terrific performance beautiful viola sound thanks to both of you now we keep moving around the young from Shanghai played the third movement from the Brownsville Sonata Opus One hundred and twenty number one they Loeb from a veal in China we're going to go to a violinist from Gdansk Poland please welcome Hannah COMPLA- better that's what teachers are for my mom is also my teachers fifteen from Gdansk Poland. She's here in Boston this summer studying at Morningside Music Bridge She just performed the fountain of Artha by Shamanov. Uh please tell everybody what you're going that's quite a family well we've been talking a lot about mom's today you must miss your a long long ways from home that's wonderful and I know you're also missing Polish food most dump links out there ski and Akiko Toyonaga was at the piano that was really beautiful so so many moods and colors it's a mood piece I love that music KUSC my GRANDPA's accordeonist and yeah and my grandma Grandpa to Oh wow uh-huh Oh you must love Morningside Music Bridge because you give up pirogies again this is your this is your third time here I'm doing community engagement projects across the country learn more about our programs at from the top dot org podcasts from the top featuring bonus I play I'm going to play out from tearing of Tuesda by Kirsch Romanowski great and Kiko Tom Naga will collaborate at the piano with you yeah what do you love about this program this is a great program because our great professors agreed France I have really good tend not heard on the radio broadcast are available at from the top dot org or wherever you get your podcasts to take us out of the program I have the fun tonight ends here and I can teach also de for masterclasses from private lessons so there's a lot of thanks this is a busy program but it's really helpful to our playing wonderful wealth please just keep coming back grandma's just seeing nursery songs I understand mm-hmm of joining two very talented teenagers in a fantastic piece of chamber music welcome Anna Stupa Thirteen from Calgary of a whole family of musicians gear is avenged ditch in music school also shaved musician in on a scale AH GEICO fifteen from Poland thank you it's my mom she's very helpful for me because she's very new store and she al- always give me comments to my plank Dan Yeah I think all of us now Polish parodies it's very famous route mm HMM oh thinks she will be proud of me I pay to say as she beard grandma played this piece for you when you were a little girl while I mean most over seventy number one in d major this trio is named the ghost because of the second movement which is a little bit mysterious and scary however Thank you so of course you probably love it because to ski was polish composer but it also the piece has a family L. in and Henry from fifteen from Bellingham Washington pianist guys tell us what we're going to play together we will be playing Beethoven's warehouse in my debt is village I he's Degen and was called to and he's playing in Philharmonic Aw of tonight's performers I wanNA thank you for listening I'm Paul Katz cellist it's been a great pleasure hosting from the top and please join from the top again next week and now as they like to say on this program I'm GonNa get my cello and then we'll take it from the top

Morningside Music Bridge Boston Summer Institute Morningside M Morningside Music Bridges Inte New England conservatory Palestine Poland China Canada Summer Music Institute NPR Canada Nick Bridge New England Conservatory Jorda Anthony Choi Calgary Philharmonic Red Sox United States Ramallah Israel Chopin
Shock Value, Sideline Pt. 2

The Right Time with Bomani Jones

57:34 min | 1 year ago

Shock Value, Sideline Pt. 2

"The Ladies and gentlemen welcome to the right time my name is Bomani Jones thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast rate us didn't upon matchups basketball is very dependent upon individual players like that's the kind of thing that's going to get us to watch eh I N B a action is fantastic elegance and you don't have to put them all but take Zion right so that was a perfect play perfect perfect play because the problem for the raptors problems the right way no matter who the super bowl is right so be two teams ain't nobody ever heard of we still go watch the super bowl because that's what we do we watch the Super Bowl basketball is very have a very interesting roster they did as well with the Anthony Davis Trade is anybody has ever done in a trade for a superstar right like Kareem abdul-jabbar when the bucks a season this year we got the raptors and we got Pelicans and the expectation of course you got to put up on the Champs right and then you get the edged the season out on will be longer right you know you guys healthier more rested better quality basketball kind of caught snake eyes on the opening game NBA and the NFL and baseball here too is really the difference between the NFL and everybody else but the difference is it doesn't really matter what in NFL team you throw out here like you tell us Tober is banning even cold outside we already talking about basketball I'm not even fully in football swing we ain't even gone far enough in football tells good but it just sort of a reality of the situation which is that well really rock within the United States like Vince Carter I think he's watching them on TV then but otherwise man the America is ready to see them do you think America is ready to see Kyle Lowry Guitar Ryan Ready to see him shed some tears and what could be his final year Pelicans Raptors it's going to be a little tumble wheaty in some ways in watching a gain it will be up there in Toronto Games on weekend gone up him to the Lakers the bush got got pretty go hall for him I know they got at least two players whose jerseys were ultimately retired that's about as good as you could expect a franchise to do one of those thank the Astros what in the world they doing also we continue our sideline series on Busa culture in college sports in conjunction with Band Society we'll talk to Marcus Spears of ESPN today but basketball is here and this is necessary of course because you know low management stuff like that back to back games and everything so I get it right like we need to get going so we can Roemer you have not okay all right so I think this is actually a fairly interesting idea because like with sports we got like a chievements checklists that we basically which means that the physical low he would have to withstand of going to the basket he can take more that than say Vince Carter could when that was ryan has the torn meniscus and look man we all understand what we Zion is like against the physics of how this goes for him long term and I think that none of us expected necessarily be playing like this at thirty five or anything like that like guys normally Amana no is going to be bumping excited they got a championship anything we're going to treat them like they Americans hold on all of it going there but this is not playing so you know in the short time was enough there's no question that a hall of fame is the way we look at it there's some athletes that are rock and roll hall of famers Canadian coming back this is you know as we were recording this the season starts tonight I one of those basketball guys love love at the basketball is back but dammit feeler it all man this is jumping and landing bringing that much body weight on his joints we are all low fearful about like really be watching Toronto on television that's why in the playoffs they the NBA TV all-stars man ain't nobody GonNa Watch it put it on the channel nobody watch that's the way they go about this I'm trying to think how many years the average jumping jack gets this is the way that he plays because normally them catch figure out that this ain't the way to go and they start playing a lot more perimeter basketball jeff because they were so exciting in the moment when they exist right so Michael Vick for me would be an example of a rock and Roll Hall of Fame Josh do nothing else it was such an impactful moment sex pistols is another example in that one the three year recorded career Jimmy Hendrix enwrap B.'s malls man that career Radek about ninety four he's dating ninety seven right like we didn't have the super long career to talk about but the impact of what he did the way that he played you know I need to get out here and she with these threes Zion is like they can never stopped me from getting to the basket Al continue going to the basket like we have this concern going to be on the trade buck later in the year all there is that marcus they'll play for them he does you Kinda old he's still over there but you know they they nobody you really WanNa tune in and watch and I think the PELICANS better like overall NFL player to Michael Vick but nobody talking about Dan fouts the way that we talk about Michael Vick right there's a very particular impact that comes from that stat I can't make you get what this was entirely by talking about team success or record or anything like this right but the impact that Michael Vick had and kgo eight he was hot for a minute right I will remember talking about him in that way like Pedro Martinez never made the hall of fame or Pedro Martinez never did anything after the Year Two Thousand He Jefferson Zion and most of these guys that we think of in this context part of it again is that he's bigger and so we have a different concern about like wear and tear is going to be but the other part is bigger go through before we decide to put somebody in the hall of fame and one of them of course like for a lot of people is longevity it's very rare that you get a guy that has a really short career and they still made the hall of fame apples they're nobody would doubt a question Jimi Hendrix is some variety a hall of fame I would dispute on sex pistols anyway nobody would dispute that there you go you know if you want to look at it who says is the which mccollum's the Pelicans got a bunch and they got on fixing swaps and everything that's coming down the line but don't nobody watching them on television at night and the difference between the we're just the impacting what they did when they were hot what they did when they were on top is enough they even if they don't make actual hall of fame we go remember him forever you think close to that we will talk about that for ever ever and that'll mean more than getting into any Damn Hall of fame right now you know champion L. Memorable Michael Vick is to us I mean Dan fouts is in the hall of fame Dan fouts Ain't Michael Vick was definitely do that right there absolutely is because we are gonna even Zayn only plays for like two years if he literally two years if we got two years Zion being what we saw in arm but I wonder have I talked about this yet gave have I taught you about my concept that we need to have a breakdown for hall of famers in Sports for what I call rock and Roll Hall of fame but they had they got okay Kuku ain't got kuwano more if I gave do you know who they do have Pascal Jacques do Seattle I'm looking forward to seeing but kids and stuff like that I don't roofing under these teams I don't care about that sort of situation but like I think about Connie Hawkins Connie Hawkins is in the hall of fame clearly but like I think about the way my dad you get like gale Sayers Terrell Davis interro David there's a lot of controversy about whether or not he was gonNA wind up making the hall of fame because he did not have that longevity but Gaza rose is GonNa do appetite for destroy maybe it's a harbinger of things to come I don't know but we can appreciate this dude for what he is or what he will be in let us try to be careful to Nagy Boggs athlete I can't pull these stats up having make sense to you even if you look at what the Russian stats on you see he had two thousand yard season I can't make you get what this was we can lock ourselves into that right because it's not like Greg Oden was terrible you know you know you don't have a lot of you don't have no memories of Greg Oh here it is getting Sunde you don't have that but out into what he's not I will be back in a minute to talk about Michael Jordan you know being Michael Jordan I who doesn't want to stress is rates continue to rise your low rate won't budge the online application is quick and easy you can apply right from your phone and you can even get your money as soon as the day you apply rock and Roll Hall of Famer just because it away like how Pedro guy down like everything about it and I think Zion that may ultimately be what it is 'cause I don't know what the length of his dominant NBA player we have lotteries into think there's going to be something that isn't that long I do think that it is important for us to appreciate him for what he is all right so Michael Jordan has realized something in recent time I'm not get a rate as low as five point nine five percents. APR With Auto Pay This is much lower than the national average interest rate of over twenty percent APR plus your rate is fixed even get some guys like that in baseball like a giants fan right Madonna fans are your dodger fan but my man lintel he's on the list I love everything about it life if high interest credit card bills adding to your stress I gotTa Solution For pay off your credit card balances and save money with credit card consolidation loan from my friends at Light Street making him Greg Oden already we don't have to do that you guys had these kinds of injuries mysteres not you know this isn't that rare extreme believes that people with good credit deserve better loan experience and that's exactly what they deliver just remind listeners apply now to get a special interest rate discount the only way to get this Tulsa Balcony Hawk right and you can't you go talk to somebody who really cared about the NBA that is nope but it don't matter because these into Jones defamed am right he and alone in that is a bunch of 'em like that and Zion all the numbers seem to indicate that he could be includes point five zero percent auto pay discount terms and conditions apply offers a subject to change without notice visit livestream dot com slash Bomani for more information basketball because he was just so focused on basketball GSI yeah I feel like there's a whole lot of casinos with a different story than that discount is to go to livestream dot com slash Bomani L. I. G. H. T. S. T. R. E. A. M. dot com slash Bomani subject to credit approval speculate on this I notice it'd be true there's a generation that don't really know nothing about no Michael Jordan I they are aware of him but they don't really know and then he clicked a glass on it right now is it possible that Mike simply meant that Steph has not been in career is going to be my buddy Pablo made this point I'm just going to enjoy every single benefit that I get every single bit and there's something and with all these guys I'm going with who I know every single night responsibility to go out there and represent greatness every single night steph curry so what this Michael Jordan thing is they know shoes and all of that stuff but shoo man falls worth man Michael Jordan Chuck Taylor I don't know nothing about Chuck Taylor Action and ask them you know they they did the the lies ep after that the user losing stuff the Spaghetti Dinner Okay coup into rock and Roll Hall of fame based off appetite for in Hall of fame I did hear him say yet not a hall of Famer yet though Yeah Yeah but I'm wondering like does he think Stephanie's to work his way up to becoming a hall of Famer the case for him not being able to get it done in the NBA because all we talk about Greg Oden is in the context of what he wasn't granted we didn't get a whole lot of chance to see what he was but defame trying to figure out who else is in the Michael Jordan Hall of fame so if Steph is not is in not for what he is not like that do Greg Ode Man Greg Oden couldn't keep his body together right we talk about him as a bust and everything else and he really had a hard time coping with how in there like seventies eighties early eighties so if you talk to somebody that's of that age rage against you could even say sixty two but ask them about Connie Hawkins asked him about the Hawk Okay Mike Mike but Anyway Mike was on the today show and I I'm not even exactly sure how this came up about Steph curry today's show and you know the flu shot and talked about the hospital and everything else by the way might try to say that a reason he ain't never talk about none of this stuff outside of basketball when he was James Worthy to play against anyone with but this is what happened next would you keep the same for in a heartbeat when I'm going into trenches I've played against what Alantic City the night before a playoff game but he was just so focused on basketball you couldn't do for somebody larger than your cell he was focused right yeah he was focused and you just see their faces a whole nother ballgame baseball my daddy talking about Don Newcombe uses washes all over his face this is something completely different Dan Newman Hall of fame the Michael Jordan Hall of fame is Scottie Pippen Michael Jordan Hall of fame the Scotty on their four-man lists he did okay so okay maybe he lives Scotty into great job Paxton hit to win the ninety three finals yes album you've ever really watched it on that play but the play was designed for Horace Grant They actually this is what's funny about it let's think about this if he had said that about Bron we would automatically assume that he was saying that Lebron is simply not been done Michael Jordan Michael Jordan those guys like David Thompson because that was his childhood idol this is pretty strong for but it's for -ducted into the hall of fame is it possible that that's the only part that he met a did he really say that Steph curry has yet to reach the standard for the Michael Jordan right because there's no way you don't think Lebron James Hall of Famer at this point that's what we would have thought but since it Steph we raise the question as to whether by truly respect turn into what he thought we thought he was going to be as what he wasn't as disciplined man that's appreciate it is what it is like let us do that and by the way appreciate it for what it is means also basically because he doesn't want to wake up the Mazda inside of him that the the cutthroat competitor in him listeners that's right I forgot we had not aired that one yeah dude I bet might be at dues house while you're talking about him hating on Jordan possibly Minna maybe there's still a couple of things that steph needs to dunes career nerd reach that plateau yo how many people are in the Michael Jordan you must lay dormant if he if he pokes it then all of a sudden he's going to become that guy he can't be that guy anymore remember what we and what basically happened was Mike commanded a double team bringing the ball up the floor he whips it up Scottie Scottie whips as and athletes he kind of brought it Full Circle Zion's Jordan Brennan Athlete he is joined ran athlete. Oh I have a great Michael Jordan story it will so he was talking to Craig Melvin and the today show and it's he said he'd keep the same for guys Akeem Magic Scottie and she is a woman and I met her and apparently when she was younger as Jordan was was a rookie and Fifteen seconds thank you for your patience a representative from the bright time we'll be with you short your current whole time is on the championship this was not necessary but that is Mike being like the petty is human big in the world why you had to flexible Steph like that Oh wow can't let anything slide Michael Jordan getting that lit he thinks slide udo stairs news mike out here doing nice things for other people my gaze money doesn't hospitals so mike out here trying to tell people go get flu shots and so he went on the that Jordan had tried to get at her right during drought and so from one North Carolina Guy to another as you know what more I think about it eight definitely wasn't trying to say he's simply is not inducted into the hall of fame Ed he's still like this he's at like he's at a hospital and some how this comes up fame Scottie knows somebody you think he got Charles Barkley into Michael Jordan hotter fame betty don't wasn't on that list of four is is that is that the entirety is like yeah in the ball went to horse and horace passed up the shot which was unfortunate MBA keeps it moving which was unfortunate for you just that ain't happening the logo is him you know what I'm saying like that anyone is going to be but home i Mike Any Story About Mike being petty that interview last year which still hasn't seen the light of day because we are waiting for the right opportunity about the guy who'd be Jordan one on one Oh yes right for another day either one of them is that good at see what happens you think might got Obama in his in his hall of fame like the President Hall of fame you got it right out to John Packs and it's a good thing to John Packs made but anyway after the game adaptability but as Mike selecting a Jordan brand athlete in whether or not Mike has anything to do with guaranteed does guarantee he does you ain't nobody that might think is a sucker Jordan brand should be plenty busy with the Bob cats excuse me oh I remember that I remember that Yes yes yes I am here for always always here for any story about Mike via Betty 'cause I just can't figure out how he's at this point in his life to the weak side and I think that's when he gets the horse because now they got basically to all right you know they had the numbers horse head ball right by him and his booze so Mike is Dundas interview with MoD and might say that Obama was bad golfer right he's as they say nothing about him as a politician I'm just saying he's a golfer I don't know well what about do you think Phil Jackson's in the Michael Jordans Nova okay ask online Sports illustrated reported that after a game six of the American League Championship Series Array and all of that might be talking bad about Carmelo ban might also say by the way in this interview that he does not play pick up ball anymore wouldn't be offended when he watches this hope he's still a great blur not a hall of fame yet though to my friend doc don't let nothing slide steph curry need to remember that okay so story came across the Bulls started Gary Cole- smote Cigar shortstop Carlos Correa Gays Lovingly at the American League Championship Trophy and in the center of the Room Assistant General Manager Brandon Tubman earned to a group of three female reporters including one wearing a purple domestic violence awareness bracelets in yelled half a dozen times thank God we got Osuna I'm so glad you know like for for certain age groups are demographic of people man that's kind of what he is so Mike I want people to know a little bit more about him by Bi Lo more public Mike I hear doing awards underneath his word for word actually this is more than an hour after Jose altuve A1 the Astros dependent the Party and the Houston clubhouse still rage rightfielder Josh Ready was crushing vodka. Red Steph is out here doing what you think about Carmelo he's not an stop for Carmelo is Jordan Bradley don't Give Me Rob Carbel the closer he faced an allegation of domestic violence that seems very very credible the prosecution could not take place because the mother of his child you ever seen some of the back and forth between him and Obama because obamacare let none slide either as Omega done is interview with modern shot because of course right did not compel her to testify after she went back to Mexico and did not end plea bargain away goes right he was spending seventy five games for by majorly as ball did not include the postseason and the Astros went and got the most cynical open box special that there is they made the decision that they were going to trade for him and to feature and I say I've made peace with reality the good things happen to bad people you know if the Astros are willing to incur the PR hit that comes from it And I will let you gave decide what parts to play the whole music over I so I met a woman few years ago and I mean I like not like unmet woman right like that's what Mike said they asked Obama about this at a press briefing and Obama's like he's this goes at at at that he says well I think Michael and if they are willing to deal with what happens if this man does this again right if they are going to do that that's the risk that they are going to take almost it National League Championship series because I still can't believe the Astros in the American League but after this Stephanie Apps sports illustrated wrote a story that noted that three you need to do those things and I think that you can do those things in a way that can be deemed satisfactory that's how I see it I'm just not I am not a fan of the idea of banning auber deal is dead to might well was Jordan and the running at that time I fell ninety was yeah it was just a Nike female reporters were in the clubhouse and in the middle of the room the general manager turned toward the three I'm not offended by the idea that they would pick him up I don't look at that is something that they need to answer for an explain for the whole time mint under these circumstances however what is this guy doing throwing this up in people's faces right by the thing that I unbranded leak is my ain't really got no respect for his get down right what am I gonna get stuff it'd be like shut him down I would love to know the process of it's four why Michael Jordan like this tune Kukudong there's not even Dennis Rodman Dash Ain't no horse really just trying to be supportive of SUNA in this moment but it wasn't directed toward these women there have been other reporters who have said that this absolutely was being coldly cynical about this and you're the Astros and you've decided that winning world series or getting the world series is worth it directed toward these women and their two ways that I look at this when I see one is if you are you there about why not necessarily offended by the fact that the Astros would pick a guy like Osuna up I don't say that like totally absent of shame you know and what your standards are going to be from here on out because clearly you stated the fact that he beat one woman isn't going to stop you from keeping him on the team so what's going to happen if he beats a second you know like I think ring him to the team because a very close to cheap price is hard to find I am not offended by the idea that the astros there's that's how he rooms Yo Chuck said Mike wasn't doing a good job as an executive he's eating cut off for years honestly including me because I don't pay attention to baseball as closely as I used to I kind of forgotten all about that now here we are man we backing we talking about till I look at a group of women and taught them with the idea of your happiness behind the success breath I would imagine he does that's probably a different kind of hall of fame though Steph Curry K. Baked Basketball Hall Fay who else who else is wait outside the club but then there's the other side of this if this event went as the reporters have characterized it what kind of hey do you have to have in your heart and soul that he is there like I do think when you pick a guy up like that though you need to have a very honest sincere conversation with everyone the city fan base whole nine explaining that you have done this I understand why it is that they chose to do it I understand that people make decisions like this for those they find to be exceedingly talented I get all of those things so it's not yeah I think he's okay with that I I feel like I feel like it might be okay with that it's a film I mess around and say something about Mike you don't like it and he won't tell them for years so that you are willing to bring Osuna in okay but I would think that you would wanna lay low on that lots of people picked him up I wasn't offended by that I'm not offended by that now maybe part of it is because of Ibex defeated by a certain level of cynicism but I look at this enlargement I say that with an understanding of like there's a level of judgment that I could see that somebody would cast a pall me and I think there ways that somebody might shame and did this now the astros put out a statement that said that this event did not go in the way that it was characterized because as soon given up a home run in this game and he was yes 'cause neither one of those dudes can let eighty they lied I'd play Dominos I wanNA watch and see them do something moment right here in front of all these people what I'm thinking about when I see you is I am going to try to taunt you about something that any that ain't no kind I noticed this guy to be oh we're more Scottie Pippen said that Lebron might be was better than Jordan you see how quickly turned back around he's got his ears to the ground at all times you want to get this back cracking where people are discussing it again and now we're looking at you and you know all the good feelings that you have about this all of a sudden feel a little different when you think about the way that of someone accused of beating the mother of his children like if your thought process was I'm going to look at them and I'm gonNA stick this to them in get into the Michael Jordan Hall of fame here this guys were we can't be sure whether or not Mike is looked at them and said okay you may gain entry you didn't let Patrick Ewing in hostages made I think that's the case for a lot of people they ain't have the do that they could have got past that with no by thinking about how they won the world series no they do it very they didn't have to do it view US gives five stars the only give us four stars I'm inclined to believe you are a hater coming up on this episode of the right time Michael Jordan doing Michael Jordan got it why would you do that right maybe I don't know like what would they was doing to celebrate or whatever maybe to hit him out here in a little too loose I know asa for you on that but why in the world give me as a result and I wouldn't want that I can live with it but that's not something that I want that's the idea is that something that I feel good about and this dude just stood up with well I'm in your eight Nike's Jordan kind of the same thing but here's the thing but they do they compete you know the here's my thing no what if Steph had we got him now for those of you who do not know who will soon is he is Roberto Osuna he pitched for the Blue Jays very and on top of the fact that it's the indicated that you've got zero shame and just feels like an outright hatred for women it does funny really what like what are you seriously what are you about you have zero shame up and they're operating with an agenda those women are being subjected to unfathomable levels of harassment I really that that is being leveraged to manipulate a very particular group of people into feeling like this the fragility of being human and that's generally but specifically it was such a statement on the danger that women live under at all times even in the most intimate relationships with the people they love right like the idea that they are not what's safe with people who love them and you go stand there and you're gonNA throw that in their faces like that like if that's your get down I don't see how the dude has a job they had suffered in the circumstances that led them to stick around with these men who beat them and treated them horribly and you know just it it was such a statement on have a chance to get somebody who thought baseball like that you can't pass up on let's say that's how you feel about this right even if that's the way that you feel about it I would think that at all no matter how many of these reporters say in went another way you know Israel disturbing about this is I don't know if you guys have been paying attention to the news I'm just simply it's wrong to hit you know you're not supposed to hear girls which is I think just to kind of a basic axiom that people looked at it but I thought that after that happened for me at least as you look at that woman with the domestic violence awareness bracelet all gotta have little twins or something right you got to unless you totally find his just some giant lie that's out here and here's the worst part about that when you think about it if this went the way the report said I'm inclined to believe that it did I'm just cover my bases now five years ago and that happened and I think that it prompted a lot of really important discussions we had this cousins all over the place and I think therefore a lot of people they gained an awareness beyond did we get to the point of just how like inhumane that was but the astros got his back the Astros said this wasn't the way it went all these things got a much more human face to them you know like I was able to beyond thinking about them is just simply Ohau that's really messed up you had people tell their stories you had super but there's been a kind of widespread campaign going on of people who view journalists as being as a group not credible and I don't see the dude has the job on the cynical tip right like cynically like hey man we had gotten past this and then you came out here talking is noise that's enough to get you fired breath you to be something not of concerned I don't know how in the world you could possibly do they give an all the things that we've seen in the last five years we talked about that ray rice thing like it was recommended although those who were children in homes in violent men who beat women tell their stories about seeing those things and how awfully was the sea and women who created enough to come out and talk about the violence got this isn't general manager who thinks that's to throw in people's faces that's your call if you WanNa be the team that is so willing to tell a lie that you're GONNA put people in harm's way joining us with this we appreciate them the last installment we had was with Spencer Hall of Batted Society and now joining us from ESPN two SEC network. Okay Sue me for this stuff if this went the way to these reporters said that it did and then the team comes out and says that they just making this there's a level of stuff they ain't going to me there's eleven of things they're not gonna try with me that they will try with women and so if you WANNA be teams my sophomore year but my junior they saw flood in and then I feel about winter camp and supposedly this camp ranked all the high school players legitimately hoped that the Astros on doing that a lot like that would be a shameless as anything else if you would be willing to do that on a lot of people come at me crazy and stuff on the internet all the time but in the end Bobby Bowden and Nick Sabin and Lou Holtz at the time and I'm you know I'm a football junkie so I was like Ham Bobby Bowden came to southern lab offers as opposed to trying to get to know you and it was all for so they had the experience with my coaches of getting pulled out of class to meet if that's how things went the NASIO call too but we got a call it what it is and is indefensible China do I didn't know Nick Sabin from Adam I didn't even know Michigan State at a football team right by but when he came in I just respect it so much of what he say because he all right this is the return of sideline limited series we're doing on booster culture in College Football Batta Society but it'd be nations I knew I wanted to play big time college football so for me that was Florida State Miami Michigan Travis Mina Warrick Dunne had went to Florida state we had a bunch of thank you were big time recruit big time college football player now I wanted this with you when did you realize that like playing big time college ball was in your future at what point right I think it was my junior year high school man I started to You know you get letters and you get you get questionnaires I and I got a couple but as a group they are people who are not to be believed and it feels like with somebody comes out and says you know all these people are lying you're from Baton Rouge oh there's no way that they can let you go anywhere but Lsu Ryan Listen Bo it was so different is is only reason now that everybody is on the program what I'm telling you man it was I was southern university was the only college that existed for me right in Baton Rouge but campus like that just was a mild history my grandmother lived in North Baton Rouge Schuylerville Louisiana and that was right by southern campus and that was home for me as far as kids looking at Lsu and then when nick saving came in and the recruiting pitch with Jimbo in just talking about what he was try great players from Louisiana in general or Baton Rouge that went Reggie Wayne with the Miami like we do going Lsu like that right right I think Kevin Fog was he technically told me don't make a four year decision make a forty year decision that was number one I'll never forget that day as one of the first statements he said to me and he said look this is like the mall and people starting to recognize you and Lsu was just it seemed like something about Lsu came up every time I was in public and liked tired turn guy sign we others Kevin fog was like a God in Louisiana and football and he would lsu everybody eyebrows raised and was like two thousand three national champion Marc Spears my man bowl with some relit going Oh man glad to be here this time you hit me up excited it'd be honest it was funny man because for me I was I was a kid that grew up in southbound route which was three four minutes down the street from Ellison campus I never went on the live is this when you start here from grownups around town by others used the place you go questioned who every time you hit the grocery store you find yourself a new place the place for me how Harwood they trying to get you doing it was it was so crazy because here's the thing the thing that Nick Sabin change was he was he were saying if I let the number one tightening in and at the time we had the number two wire receiver which was Michael Clayton we had the number one defensive in Louisiana Marquees he'll Andrew Whitworth was like the number three offensive tackle and so this year was like all the players were Louise Baton Rouge with me so that's when I knew joey years when the mail crate store coming nasty this isn't you an interesting place at least in the way that I look at things in that the number one tight end in the country a play tight in high school and then I started getting mail crates a letter really right and then when the game chain it was like it was China so his whole mantra was man if I let them my wing ever recruit a good recruiting class right he just it was it was dispelled okay the empty we need to know Randy Moss was the number one recruit day yes Kevin Fall was no number two for sure so he he was the game changer I would say when you when it was like you could win a national championship you can always come back to Ben Rhodes you can do whatever you want to do in this city if you if you have success and if you guys put the honeyman where we had this conversation because you know a lot about Vr and you know I didn't grow up Lsu fan I really was like forget Lsu now you see that age though right away there I loved this is one of our favorite topics I love to talk about this all the time we're like mad booster stuff around college football is the most entertaining really most initated don't go play right so yeah man it was it's funny how they transition man because I was not ill as you lay you had the owners of these places were big LSU booster so you know we built a new log cook facility we built a hotel while all what is Tiger Athletic Foundation what is this right and then you start to see like millionaires in these dudes they got all kind of access to practice and being I know you are a all American high school I know you the number one tied in the country but you glad to earn your way to play in no other coach said it rarely coach is going to change they often able to be in games and on the sideline and you know as you become a player and I'm becoming all American of starting to look around especially my junior won national championship I'm like all these you have the the staples like I think I think in Louisiana you had moines company that was a big construction coming you had shaw group you had all star Chevron working so that was his pitch like don't make a four year decision right make a forty year decision right and I imagine once you get on campus housing start learn about these boost I'm like coaching through to the damn tight end like so now you found that guy so it just changed for me and never go as this question around that time I'll tell you some so you you you constantly try to figure out while this money coming from like while these new buildings coming from what the Hell is E. Lsu case Oh people mom and it was the dude supporters of the program and They just you know in whatever way they could support playing as we have these conversations I've always had in the back of my mind that we should be able to profit often it right cited you don't look at it like that what did they always gives me about it boosters are around is because they want to be around kids no question no question let this is not first of all if you don't think it's been going on you stupid right you've been around bought like I was comfortable I knew my whereabouts around everything southbound route or what my mom lives you know I was in the neighborhood I wasn't really doing much on Lsu campus that was like the you you pay enough attention to college football you know boosters player integral part and one thing I think the misconception is this boost is a hand in players know fix this I really happening like that I tell people all the time like I didn't get a dime to go to Lsu now if I knew other news getting damn sure would ask for some uh-huh and then I guess you get to meet a couple of was that do do all he runs a bank exactly like you know it was a bunch of a bunch of that you know and it was it is what it is and and I think a lot of times may you just you just I I kind of I've always had this and as we talk about this paper I allow players to work so I had a job and I worked I naming no names money 'cause I ain't throwing him under the bus but I worked does do this to a degree they just feel like doing it right because the same as what you already on campus they don't really have to do anything for you like he's really whatever you want more because you want to call you whatever you want and I never took it because I didn't want to be in bed with them what this mean right I was born to that like who it this is the deterrent and I tell the players this now do once you take breath from them you embiid with you yep like that the players have to understand but money to bro I got off a bags in college after I became an all American successful and like dude I think a Lotta Times that deters players more than anything and then you've got guys in desperate situations that's like man forget it I need this right like what was the weirdest thing that boosted wanted I didn't get a dime they go to Lsu I didn't there was no school that offered me a bag per se so I always feel a little bit like dues embellishing or lying flat out period I will go in and I literally do my hours because it was a job that I liked but I wasn't there it's hard and it happens I'm not saying it doesn't happen but to say that this coach came with a with fifty thousand suffer as you lying it was from those type of neighborhoods where people just don't give you the right went out of expectation for you to do something later or whatever so I think for me that's what kept me individually they get Eddie you ain't got that big it was somebody else that matriculated down to you But jobs you know I was in I was in school when the NCW is a little weird right because I bet you got some hang out invitations let me tell you this this is what this is actually a deterrent you got some dummies in college this transpire when I was on campus all of these new things and like these those given three million dollars to the program they given a million and a half you late let me get some of that bred man well that's the thing because they they try to keep on one level is he wants to keep the boosters away from the kids because they don't want to lose to give kids no money but the whole reason they expect you to do some when you make right that's that's understood like this is not just about the success you haven't in college so it was weird but you always get asked for you know birthday porter's come meet these guys that you know standing on the sideline or I got some guys on campus can you come sake the and is in my age demographic ain't that part and I'm like Damn Man I would love to go though I would love to go because she's gorgeous they'll know you know you they they can't no you right or you have those ones that's like super overzealous and they won't everybody reason inhale for me to be at the Party other than your daddy loves Lsu he got got me to come so it was it was that was probably the weirdest thing and then I thought he was out of it and I know a Lotta dues that I went to school with that's what kept them out of it like do it if a Doogie you're a six thousand dollar car if he give it to you and he wanted me to come to the door sweet sixteen point and I'm like I can't

Michael Jordan Bomani Jones Carmelo baseball giants Steph Mexico Obama Madonna Jordan Bradley Craig Melvin Rob Carbel two years five years forty year four year three million dollars six thousand dollar three four minutes
Consequences of COVID-19 Pandemic

Future Thinkers Podcast

1:00:31 hr | 8 months ago

Consequences of COVID-19 Pandemic

"Hey this is. Future thinkers where we talk about how to adapt to a changing World Gilmore zillions upgrade culture and society and create meaning and purpose with your host Mike land in UV. Hey guys so. This is our second livestream that we did on the second order effects of Corona Virus. All different societal political economic effects. That are already happening and could potentially happen. This is a livestream that went out on March sixteenth. So we're publishing it a little bit later on the podcast here. A lot of it is still super relevant and some of the things that we talk about here actually ended up happening in the world. So I hope you like it and for more resources on preparing for the lockdown which a lot of us are actually already experiencing I think two billion people in the world are on lockdown right. Now you can go to future thinkers dot org slash Cova. Prep and if you're having trouble processing the emotional followed of what's happening right. Now if you're experiencing grief you can go to future thinkers dot org slash Cova grief. Alright let's get into this yeah. This thing has unfolded very quickly and For anyone who has been paying attention to this for awhile. It's probably no surprise but for some people who kind of clued in that. This is a big deal recently. It might feel like Hitting them like a ton of bricks. But we're already starting to see societal effects happening. Obviously in Italy. Hospitals are overwhelmed. Doctors are having to choose who lives and who dies So they're doing triage because they're just simply not enough ventilators for people who can't breathe And if you look at the exponential charts of the growth of the virus and other countries A lot of countries are just a few days or maybe weeks behind Italy. And they're following the exact same exponential curve so unless country start taking measures shit is GonNa hit the fan. They're in the same way that it did and Wuhan and in Italy just in a matter of days speaking of Shit hitting the fan. We've been working on a lot more articles lately Wait that was great segue. Wasn't it The the most recent one that We put out. There was a covert grief or or how to respond to the kind of emotional followed of having things collapse around you. You can check that out. Teacher thinks dot org slash Kovic grief. Yeah and ice. You've got your prep because we did an article Last week and some of it might be already kind of late for that but there's still some relevant stuff and that's how to prepare and that's at future thinkers dot org slash qubit. Prep but yeah mean we have We've been talking to some people and some people have already started noticing cash shortages. You know some people have gone basically out of business because of the shutdowns or because people are afraid to travel Or afraid it's you know. Two they they don't go out and spend money so people who work in the restaurant industry or in any sort of industry where they it's in person Have really suffered and we're going to see that a lot more And especially for people who don't have any savings live paycheck to paycheck. That's going to impact them. In a massive way so you know people kind of obsess over the death rates. But we're probably going to see way more bankruptcies than deaths from this which has caused cascading effects in itself Depression rates suicide rates crime rates. I've even heard rumors that some countries are seeing increased rates in divorce. Yeah this is actually data that one of the Chinese provinces published That the the registry office noticed a spike in divorce rates because couples were locked together in quarantine and probably experiencing financial difficulties as well and you know divorces happen. I was talking with my dad the other day. And he's quite depressed about the whole change and social etiquette family's very social very like advice to get together in groups. Have some drinks hug that kind of stuff and that's it's already been quite depressing and affecting them just not able to do that. Yeah especially for people who are extroverted where they really get their energy from socializing. This is very very difficult. So Yeah I've known a lot of my family are in the service service industry as well like my my brother. Barton's and manages and service industries like that. My sister's a hairdresser. These things are already affecting them We've got some friends who joined the calls with us on feature thinkers who are now like their parents are both out of business now and they're going to you know Li live on a farm and just kind of exit in in Tap Out of city living. Yeah well and cities obviously are going to get much more strict measures because there is population density and just more people packed into a smaller piece of land. So you know. All these kinds of strict lockdowns are probably GONNA affect people a lot more in the city. So I understand. I mean if you have the ability to go live in the countryside you've if you've parents or or somebody who owns a cottage and you can do that awesome but not everybody can do that. So ours are Booking manager in podcast production person Has lives in. Serbia and they recently Gross Walk Down State of emergency yesterday. Yeah Yeah so she is having to Go Out and get groceries. I think the laws in Serbia are the restrict depending on the age range So if you're in the the more vulnerable category Which is like sixty or seventy years? Plus then you're really not allowed to leave quarantine. Our core measures measures quite strict. She's having success. Yeah so she's having to go out and get groceries. Run Errands for multiple people. Family members neighbors that kind of thing so just in that. There's a lot more of a demand for for kind of social care You know stepping back and helping out with the family kind of thing which also takes away your ability to make income so this whole this is a a lot of affects That in my mind for the last several years. I've been thinking this decision. This would happen as a result of Job Automation I cared a lot about the subject of universal basic income and I thought this stuff was going to be like ten years down the road going to deal with this. Be Dealing with this and suddenly here. We are and all of the problems are happening all at once. There's no one to blame. The whole concept of Uber has been de-politicized. It's now an emergency situation so I thought maybe we could talk about that a little bit too. Because I don't know I don't see a whole lot of other solutions if you're if for several years already we've been so close to the edge like our ability to live is dependent on our ability to be working all the time and now that that's gone we don't have the ability to live anymore. Yeah and also because people are not self sufficient in any way these days like they don't grow their own food and and they're very isolated from everybody else that it's precarious as Guy Standing has called it so people are in a very precarious situation. I think seventy percent of United States Lives paycheck to paycheck. And I don't know what those numbers are for other countries but this is just a stat that I saw yesterday and I think United States is actually going to be impacted very very badly by this pandemic worse than other countries because in Europe at least they have a socialized healthcare and so the as well in Canada and Australia but in the states if people don't go to work they don't make money in the health care is not covered by the government So they can't even get tested for covert so You were saying that you know emergency you. Bi Emergency Universal Basic. Income would really help in this situation and it would be a premise to institute. It yeah I was thinking this the other day I was actually partway through an article a few weeks ago and then all of this. Kobe stuff started coming up. And I just wasn't thinking about it as much but I was part part way through an article about you. Be I in the kind of the unexpected benefits. I thought there would be kind of explosions of art creativity and invention and that kind of stuff because even myself and I'm not claiming to be like a grand inventor of anything. We're doing anything that special. But it's like I was locked up in a fulltime forty fifty hour week job in Vancouver washing dishes and serving tables and stuff and could not make any more than was necessary to just pay my written feed myself and there was like a period of five years where I just trying to make ends meet and could have been working on the things that we're working on now. The only way I got out of that was just you and I left so I know that there's a lot of potential locked up in in the necessity to be working and now that potential I think is very precarious. It's been in some ways. It's been unlocked. Because people have a lot of time on their hands if they're in locked down so there are some immediate benefits as well to this. I think people can kind of collective is Craig Group intelligence collective intelligences and then start problem-solving around the stuff. There is potential I do see a lot of opportunities. In what the covert nineteen is has shown for us. Oh is he crying now? Yeah Years Okay we gotta take a break but you can. Maybe continue talking. Yeah lockdown parents life. Yeah just maybe you can bring him in here. David Talk to me. You're muted. I think all right and then needed now. So David you might have seen He's helping us with the camera movement today But he's been on he hasn't been on any podcast. But you've been on live. Streams and group calls the Watch parties so I can't exactly show your face without having to do a lot of technical setup but maybe can chat here. Sure your thoughts. I think I think what you what you've talked about. So far Israeli he The the biggest thing that I've been paying attention to I always go so I'm thinking about the broad scope of how do we make sense of this? I'm on a big scale and it's hard I mean the the practical so there. I think there are two things that I think about one is what does everybody need to know like practical day to day. Things were starting to talk about. Their near-term downstream impacts How do we deal with the financial at backs of this job? Impacts of this as well as in the medical aspect and like you said. I think that you're right. The United States is in a different kind of situation. I was impressed surprise. Actually that the current graph says the same trajectory in the United States and elsewhere pretty much the few Japanese countries that have dealt with SARS are the only ones who are really look looking like they're having Activity that slowing it down. So that so they down impacts are going to be large and trying to figure out. How do we deal with that? Creatively bringing our own individual. Sovereignty need to add to collective sovereignty is going to be the biggest challenge. And so those are my thoughts but that kind of informs that the reason that I pay attention to you guys is because you're really good about paying attention to the downstream impacts on the street level. Yeah so I think that's important. Yeah Yeah another thing that we've we touched on in in our last livestream the emotional and mental Consequences of this and we're already seeing this like we have a friend who is just so stressed like she's not sleeping. She's you know she saw. Somebody tried to commit suicide and it really impacted her I guess I don't know what this person's story is. Who but she saw somebody on the train and they were going to jump in front of the train and so she was really. You know stressed out by that and thinking about how much that's going to keep happening And there there are also other kind of hidden costs. You know people who they might be elderly or mentally ill Quarters isolated for whatever reason or maybe single moms like people who are going to need help but might not have anybody to help them. How challenging nuts going to be just with the schools being shut down? That's a big thing. Yeah suddenly and we're this is an example we we've our babysitter couldn't come and is afraid of infecting everyone. So it's like you know and this is happening. All over the states and Oliver all over the world basically any were there schools. Shut down now. Kids are have to. They have to be home and now parents have to deal with that. Yeah that's like it doesn't seem like that big of a problem. I wouldn't have thought it would be that big but now that I have him. I'm like Oh wait. Everything stops if you're if you have to be taken care of your kid the whole. Yeah he yeah and you know. We talked about the divorce rates increasing. So that's like a month into lockdown. Can you imagine the lockdown us three months or four months because we're just at the start of this pandemic doing Europe? You're already been. You've been so abusive with me already had to do it. Yeah just imagine you know for three or four months I saw some somebody posted like Pulled after this quarantine is over because in Bulgaria. We've been in lockdown since Friday. So it's been a few days After this quarantine is over which outcome do you think is most likely for you? Ten kilos overweight Alcoholic pregnant divorced all of the above. Yeah baby boom coming in nine months. Yeah so the thing. Do we want to keep going on that or well? Think it's a pretty obvious solution and especially for a place like United States. That is more at risk of being hit by this because there are so. Many people working paycheck to paycheck. And there's I don't know what the what the laws are for social security like if people get unemployment insurance if they're working on no contract deal. I don't think they do well. A lot of a lot of people have been moving to contract type employment instead of employees and being becoming an employee which means you're responsible for a lot of your own benefits and yeah and yet taxes. Everything no contract at all so they they don't even get guaranteed hours for the week. So yeah so in my mind I mean. Obviously we've talked about the grief thing the last time we did one of these live streams. That's pretty much all we talked about. I wrote this big article about this subject. I think that's a very important thing. How do we process the grief? Because things are changing. And it's GONNA get harder. We got to be able to deal with that because we cannot make good decisions. If we're you know panicked and angry and going through seven stages of grief and denial of the situation which is another thing. That's happening like people. I've noticed a lot of people not wanting to face the truth of this and therefore denying its existence and going about life is business as usual so that's a big But so that's number one. Learn how to process this stuff and then to me. I mean I'll speak for myself in my life. The number two three priorities take care of the family Deal with the grief stuff and help others deal with the grief stuff and then it out there in the world we've always been asking like what's the there in the world task. People have asked us that a lot related to like our future. The future thingers community to me. It's basic income it's like Hash tag emergency. Ub That's the best thing that can come out of this. This is giving us a lot of opportunity to to I don't want to say you know that old saying never let a good crisis go to waste. It's I know. There's opportunists out there. That are kind of jumping in like buying all the Sahan sanitizer off the shelves and stuff but this is also kind of a a moment for all of society to look at the situation. We're in and reflect and then because we're all in the same boat start to to take the action like we have the motivation to take action that we've never had before yeah crisis is always a catalyst for change so we have this great opportunity to create social change and I know that it's extremely stressful. Because people have stuff happening in their personal lives to but at the same time now is the time to make change. Because there's precedent for it and I've I've been in a number of situations where I've seen kind of public demonstrations I've never considered myself an activist. But I've always shown up to stop when there were demonstrations and I've seen riots unfold as well. You and I were both in Vancouver when the he's given any GEL hockey. Riots happened when Vancouver connects. We're going to lose when they lost the playoffs. It was like. Are You fucking kidding? Me were lighting for cars on fire and flipping cars and destroying windows and breaking apart businesses and stealing shit like what a mean to say about. This is people will flip into this insanity mode at at the drop of a hat like when things are not going well collectively. I don't know if you remember but it was just in the air but when we're on the skytrain riding into downtown for the last game like I don't know what's going to happen with the game if they win or lose but something's going down like people were people were wearing Like bandannas around their face or around their neck like being ready to put them over their face. People had backpacks on this like. Oh yeah you got a bunch? Molotov cocktails in there. I just know it. Yeah and it turned out that they did have Molotov cocktails. So what I mean to say. Is that like things will get bad for stupid reasons and this is actually a pretty good reason for things to get bad in my opinion like this is. This is the reason that people are going to be like fuck. Can't feed myself. This is a real emergency. It's not like past things that we've had an inkling of something to calm side. We're finally embodied in this problem now. We're having this problem now. And so the reason I wanted to talk about this you'd be I thing is that I've recognized a Lotta these different movements over time the occupy Wall Street. The was the latest latest one in London and the world extension rebellion and a lot of these are like angry responses without real solutions. What are what are the solutions being proposed? What's the actual list? That is going to be executed. Who's responsible for it? And this is the first time I've ever felt like what goes on the protest sign actually serious potential to be a real solution at least for the time being at least until yeah pantothenic. I'm glad you said that because there's a difference between the emergency and then what I feel about this because I care about this subject a lot. I feel like this is something that goes forward into the future That could take a lot of years if it weren't for this specific event happening now. So it's like what I think is going to happen as the emergency you be. I will give people a taste of it there. There will not need to be a ton of debate about whether it's necessary it's like do you want society to collapse or not okay. Well maybe this is a good solution. Not Saying that as a threat but saying it's highly likely it will collapse. Yeah just the combination of factors in United States is especially ripe for this because So many people work paycheck to paycheck. There is no socialized health care There are a lot of guns and there's been growing discontent for a longtime already and also huge prison population So if if for whatever reason. Those prisons can't be contained anymore. And all those people own free. Yeah yeah very true. Alex agrees thinks One of the things that was just mentioned recently trump had been planning to cut seven hundred thousand Americans from food. Stamps yes right. I heard that there's just recently I saw on Bloomberg that the cancelled that now. It's like okay. No we're not going to do that now. So this is kind of. That's the wrong direction. Obviously and of the UB is actually even further in the direction of. Let's take care of people rather than trying to cut you off. So it's an interesting change in perspective. Yeah and I mean. Sometimes people think of this as kind of a socialist solution but in this case. It's not it's not politicized de politicized. Yeah and there's nobody to point the finger at in this case is just like well unless you're conspiracy theorists and you think that somebody releases virus on purpose which still we don't know what the whether that's you know some people think that's the case but there's no solid evidence In in any case. Yeah it's de-politicized so Hopefully hopefully if this basic income instituted. Nobody's going to feel resentful about it. There's a lot of problems that exacerbate the situation Related to supply chains. I heard someone say recently that Antidepressants are going to be hard to come by. There's a lot of different medicines and drugs that we get from China and India. I know I heard. India is is not letting a lot of drugs come into the US now because they think they're going to need it for dependent mic Same thing China. I'm sure as well manufacturing's just fucked everywhere. Yeah they produce a lot of the generic cheaper versions so the like the brand name ones of might be produced in Western countries but the cheaper generics produced in China. Wood floors. Me About this whole thing is how perfect it is at every level to get us to reflect on the way we live. Yeah really you know. We've been living so precariously in so many different levels of society for so many years and this is suddenly highlighting all of those fragilities at once. And you know it's funny because it's it's been precarious but at the same time it's been optimized there on super convenience like people don't keep anything in their fridge because everything is available at the store and they can go get it any time and things are delivered to your door. You Know Amazon. Instant delivery in the states so people don't feel like they have to prepare. They don't feel like they have to stockpile. Everything is just on demand when they needed but those supply chains are super fragile. When something like this happens you know like are pretty much every generation before us had to have some sort of you know stockpile in their house in. That was just normal. One reason I've appreciated a lot of the countries we've traveled to over the years including the one we we now live in the kind of buffed polished surface of web western civilization hides an underbelly or Hides the inner workings of how things come together and how they really are. And I've always liked that kind of out there on the surface to be able to see yeah to to see where the problems are. I'd rather not. It's comes back to that example. Whenever we've got stopped by police in Asia versus in Canada the states. It's like you know that there's a cost to getting out of this. You don't know like you don't know how it's GonNa work behind the scenes and yeah yeah. There's kind of a unknown price for bribes the cops to get rather the corruption. What I'm saying is I'd rather see the corruption be out on out there in the open then behind you know some some wall that I can't see transparency. The in a lot of countries in the world corruption is very. Yeah it's very transparent and it's on the low levels like it's everyday life level whereas in somewhere like United States corruption is at the high level. So it's you know banks getting bailouts and billionaires hiding their money in offshore accounts and things like that don't pay taxes. Yeah speaking of which I mean. I was following the Andrew Yang presidential campaign. Unfortunately he was nowhere near getting close to being elected But the in One of the things he that people would ask him like well. Where's the money gonNA come from for you because that was the whole basis of his campaign and he was saying well look at Amazon? How much money they get away with not paying taxes and then. I saw that video of the rice representing like this guy had a table full of rice and he said each one of these grains represents a hundred thousand dollars. And he's like to me. That's a lot of money to you. That's probably a lot of money and he puts together POWs. Here's a million dollars with that. Looks like and he's like here is what Jeff bezos whole net worth and. It's just like a two pound bag or something like that of Rice. Billions upon billions of dollars. We don't have a concept of how much that is but man was that ever evident in that video Weren't going well the corruption at the high level. Yeah Yeah Well. There is the key. That is a question. I don't know if this is the right time to do it. Behooves US get paid for? That was one of his suggestions as like tax on the products to tax these companies. Yeah I don't know yeah. I think that's probably a another concept. Something I've been prepped for everyone just reminder that for five bucks a month you'll get access to all of our full podcast episodes unreleased material from past episodes and occasional extra content from our courses including guided meditations lessons and more plus. You'll be helping us. Keep the lights on. The brand new future thinkers members Is Now live. Develop your sovereignty and self knowledge with our in depth courses get access to our weekly sense making calls join the QNA's with past podcasts and much more become a future thinkers member today at future thinkers dot org slash members. I do have a sense that I mean I grew up being told that you should work for what you get worked for everything you get and I know that the people in my hometown still feel that way like there's no handouts. There's no freebies. This is not a welfare system but as I've gone through the last several years and looked at automation looked at the advancements. It's very easy to see that we are. We are wrapped up in a system of global centralized ways to get food and energy and and communication a lot of other things and we have to pay to be able to play any of these games. There's no such thing as like going off in your own farm and make you know starting garden and having your solar panels and all the stuff like they've this system kind of makes that really difficult and taxes it to a point where it's actually nearly impossible to do that in a lot of countries. So we are. We have this built in dependency on the system. And what we have to do now to get by is far more than we ever used to have to do to get by to just pay the bills to pay your tuition fees to get groceries to pay the rent all of that stuff It's fulltime work And I just think that's not right. That's not the same as you should work for what you get. We have the ability to feed people and and produce we overproduce enough for everybody. So I think this is Quite the opportunity to show people what that what life could be like just by having a taste of what this emergency relief would look like. Yeah Yeah just happened. One of the things to think about is it's the mindset shift is that we have been in a situation where the illusion of individual on the individual's primary as sovereign as an each person is like like you said you don't rely on handouts you make it on your own. But that's an illusion we can't we're not nobody's making. We're all really working together than the sense of it. Based on the relational component that we're all working together on this is is Bad parts hidden and so this is something in a seems like a frame shift and mindset. Shift of the relational component is more important than we knew if we only focus on individual making their own. We'RE NOT GONNA make it past this point. Yeah and it's interesting because The social distancing is now getting implemented by so many countries In order to stop the spread of the pandemic. But that doesn't mean that we're actually going to be isolated. It doesn't have to mean that. Anyway and a lot of the time in a crisis especially in a major existential crisis like this. That affects everybody. People people can become more altruistic. And you know they. They might be more likely to actually want help so. I think that's really important to remember that this social distancing doesn't have to mean that we're all going to be just alone in our apartment we can. We can connect with our loved ones and our neighbors and we can see what ways we can help others. I'm just checking out the comments. You some really tough. Someone says I can remember it anyway. Moyo there it is. My husband told me that the most popular AMMO was out of stock at large outdoor sportsman stores. Yeah I've seen that actually. I've seen that on twitter as well. People are saying that they like they've stocked up on Ammo but now they feel they don't have enough. Oh my God yeah I mean the. There's your sign I mean when we were on the skytrain that was the same kind of feeling it's like people are talking in such a way and prepping and taking action in such a way that you know something says this is. Something's going to go wrong here. I think this is an opportunity. To mitigate that by sharing this information one thing I would would be to tag MP's and presidents and prime ministers. Yeah I think is an emergency. You'd be going around on twitter. Yes urgency fist in mouth. Oh you know what I just heard today. So Bulgaria's unlocked downed and there's a going to be the largest military exercise. That American army has undertaken in. I don't know how long that's twenty five thousand military personnel. Doing some sort of an exercise around here while everybody's on lockdown like this is that not does not sound wrong suspicious. Something's up yeah. Yeah there's there's an airbase or something here American American airbase here. Yeah Yeah I think this is. This is kind of a get ahead of this moment. You know we have to get ahead of this moment. Not but I don't know I'm pessimistic. But that as well because look at how people have been responding especially in the West look people have been responding just just to deal with the the virus itself. Nevermind downstream effects yet. People are not taking seriously at all. Yeah Yeah I mean here here. People have started taking it seriously when the government shut everything down and imposed strict fines and even jail time for some for certain Breaking certain laws in regard to this by the way someone asks the question who is the other cousteau voice in the background. That's David swallow. He he's been in a lot of our videos before he's in. Our members area contributes a lot there. So Yeah David you were going to say I was just GonNa say we're talking a little bit about Authoritarian possibilities versus Disapplied possibilities and I think that it's really difficult to know what is most effective. You know there's a there's going to be. I think one of the things that's GonNa be right important as for citizens to be able to feed back To be able to use social media as much as possible to let people know what's happening. Yes yeah absolutely. Speaking of social media The mainstream media has been so useless in Newport on this accurately. I found buddy. Hey look you're on internet. Tv Yeah. I found the best sense making to be On twitter actually just different public intellectuals and people who are interested in complex systems and some epidemiologists. Some virologists you know. There's a that the doctor John Campbell on Youtube who's been doing daily updates Yeah just like there's a lot of good sense make up there but it's not coming from mainstream media or authorities or you know experts. You know yeah. I think that that was a really good thing to bring up the kind of because people are going to look at this and quite a binary way is this like liberal democratic way of running a country Working out in situations like this and clearly in the United States is not working out in the UK. It's not working out and candidates not really working out but we're kind of continually divided between this binary view of how we operate is society and I've been thinking that there's there's going to be like there's something we've never tried. Which is this decentralized totalitarian government. Careful I know but I mean related to what we've been interested in blockchain for soul for so long to have like decision making more distributed but in an electronic way we're not sending horses across the fucking continent to deliver messages like representative democracies broken. This is not working but we could do something new. That's like a little more efficient a little faster and decision-making there's lots of software out there to help us make decisions. We even know people in our community who are building these kinds of APPs like. We're we're still running democracies off of five hundred year old technology and that could change and this could make us still have the benefits of being democratic and being open and free and liberal but then when things need to happen we can have. Experts agree rather than politicians agreeing that something needs to be done and then action is taken like if if you know. Let's say that someone like Dr John Campbell. If you had a liquid democracy or distributed democracy in a situation like this he would have a lot more weight in his vote. And there'd be people I came that would have higher weight in what to do policies to institute so we might see instead of trying to fight with some politicians got his own set of agendas may be it would be better to have different. Different areas of our politics and government distributed depending on the people working in those fields. Yeah I have a lot of issues with liquid liquid democracy because people are not rational or logical especially under stress and you know people can be coerced and manipulated into giving up their votes if like liquid democracy system that relies on people giving up their votes to so-called experts and it can also turn into a popularity contest where you know people can pose as experts but actually not know what they're talking about in a crisis situation and make a bad decision. I don't have something to propose. I'm just saying that like maybe the five hundred year old tech were using. This is something to be updated. Maybe PAPER BALLOTS. Maybe voting on some dude represents an entire country is not the right thing you know. Yeah that's pretty obvious. Can we could agree on that. As far as what the solution is in. Maybe it's not binary maybe it's not communism or fascism or whatever this liberal version of government is right now. Maybe it's not those things. Maybe it's something that's never been tried. But it's pretty clear that in Western countries right now. The response has been pretty bad. Yeah it's been really inadequate and places that have had both exposure to hardships and or two related events who've had practice rounds and then have the ability to deploy sweeping changes and movements Quickly like that seems to be a winning factor here. Yeah so it seems that the countries that have had the best outcome so far. And that's actually not not even we can't conclusively say Yeah Good Job because it's not over yet is just starting so we'll see how plays out long-term but so far it's been Hong Kong Japan To a lesser degree South Korea. That have done a really good job. Singapore as well In slowing down the spread of the infection and in China they did it with these extreme lockdowns And you know. Basically they would arrest people who broke quarantine and in in Korea. They had Really widespread testing so they were able to trace the clusters of infections and isolate people. Really well In Singapore and this is kind of more surveillance option they actually like tag people who were infected and so you would know who was infected in your area see their name but you would their location and you know maybe case number or something I'm not sure exactly how it looked on the on the APP but they had a technological solution. And so that's how they were able to do very effective very specific social distancing. Yeah and in in Hong Kong. I'm not I think they closed things really early on like they closed schools and universities and they were able to slow things down that way But yeah like those. Those four countries I way better outcomes and slowing things down and therefore their hospitals weren't overloaded and they had a very low death rate because of that and low morbidity rate because it's not just death rate like there's a very sizeable chunk of the people who get infected who actually get lifelong complications from this. And because it's so new we don't even know what the outcomes are like five years down the road but so far we can already see that. There's like permanent lung damage. There's cases of infertility in men There's permanent heart damage like organ damage. They've found that it can even affect the nervous system. If it gets bad enough so old stuff is obviously GonNa have causes societally and also you know in people's lives for years to come so yeah just looking at the death rate is not enough. But it's still you know significant factor that we can see that slowing down. The infection helps reduce that and so this is Speaking of slowing things down in UK. They are trying to implement this completely. Different Strategy Where they just say okay. Let's get everybody infected and then we'll have heard immunity and then that's how we'll just get it over with quickly Which who yeah. I know it's a very very risky strategy. So if if you had a passage in that was already known like the flu. You know that we have Vaccines For we have treatments for we. You know it's it's a beast we know more or less whereas this is a completely new thing and if you've seen reports from Chinese doctors from the front front lines like we're actually dealing with this They say it's like SARS plus AIDS like it can have really really it really wrecks the body especially for people who are Have Weaker Immune system or have pre existing conditions But even in Italy. Now they're seeing young people get serious complications to this like long failure and other stuff so it's not just an old person's disease and it's it is very serious so when you just like Leonard ripped through the population their death rate is going to be huge and and the CO morbidity as. Well you know like because they're simply not going to have enough beds and enough ventilators enough doctors to deal with this so. I mean we're going to have to see and always had an and there's another thing so We don't even know if people develop immunity after they are done with this disease. We don't know that so yes. It's a corona virus which means it's similar to the flu. It's in the same family of diseases and people do develop an immunity to to the flu but the flu mutates every year so they develop an immunity to one strain then next year. There's a new strain. They don't have immunity so it's possible that the same thing could happen this so you know they let it rip through the population killing big chunk. some people get immunity and then it mutates and then what so. Yeah but we don't know the other. The other factor is that while they say that a lot of children's seemed to not get it. We don't know if maybe going into the body and doing something waiting and in the background to be expressed somehow differently at a later time. Exactly exactly and this is the The effects that are kind of HR similar to HIV. That the Chinese doctors noticed that it causes It can cause you know organ failure or Just 'cause you're systems to operate improperly or causes immunodeficiency In that kind of stuff can be very long term it can have long term consequences and you know with HIV. For example it takes a really long time to develop. It can take years before it really starts wrecking you. So this is a novel infection. We don't know what the long term effects are so we can't really be playing fast and loose with something like this. Yeah and whatever decisions we are making. We need to be tracking. We need to able to have the capacity to implement some sort of feedback loop about what visions were made. What sort of short term impacts on? What sort of long term impacts are we starting to see That's one of the things that's challenging right now. We're just reacting to the immediate needs and we need to start responding more broadly. And it's IT'S A it's a transition I mean. Obviously there are emergencies things to be doing right now but we need to start thinking about collecting the kind of data. That will help us make better long-term decisions. Yeah absolutely and they're always things happening in the background and a crisis like this Where you know while our attentions over here there are different entities. That might take that opportunity to do something over there. So it's it's I think it's really important for us to try to increase our individual and collective sovereignty and discernment to try to determine what is fake and what Israel and. That's really difficult. I know that but I think it is worth putting our attention onto. Yeah I mean that's what I mentioned earlier about the three priorities. That's a big one like. How do we process because becoming sovereign is so related to how you process your emotions? Yeah but this is not just sovereignty. It's also discernment like. Can you tell the quality of this information that's coming to you? Can you tell if Israel say can't though Like it's it's about not attaching to wanting one outcome over another. That's how you make better sense is just to not take your own desire out of it and observe. What is as much as possible without trying to filter your desire into it. People don't do that on purpose. But you know what I mean to try and remove your desire for the outcome so that you can see things a little more unbiased. But there's not much. Yeah Yeah my my point is like a there. Was this rumor circulating that. Us IS GOING TO GO ON. Full lock down and then The CDC came out and said no no. This is fake news so now we don't I mean we're not in the US but we have a Lotta friends in the US so nobody knows what the actual situation is where that information came was it you know disseminated through the networks on purpose to create some sort of a response. Was it just like a rumor that developed on its own Is it actually something that's going to happen? Is it not going to happen? It's consequential for people so yeah you can say like yeah. You know detached from from wanting a certain outcome but people might actually be making major life decisions based on the information. I know I'm not saying it's an easy thing but still doing. It produces better since making. That's pretty obvious. I'm not saying it's easy. I mean if I have to make hard decisions with with our family. It's not gonNA be like I have definite preferences but yeah I mean that that's what colors people's decisions the most. That's what makes hard. That's what makes people not want to face truth and make decisions that are counter to their well-being you know. That's why states have been so slow to respond because you've got an entire population that has not had a ton of exposure to real globe. Let's say global hardship in the last twenty years and suddenly they have to face him really hard truths individuals members of society have to face hard truths. And it's like a lot of people just not willing to do that. Yeah denied existence altogether. They don't WanNa change their life styles they don't want to give up conveniences. Yeah and we've known people like that. Who just outright said I'm just GONNA sit back and do nothing yet. Not You kiss busy. Comments said that the doctor Campbell recently noted that It looks like people do build immunity that in cases where it looked like somebody may have required it. It was a case where did Mexico way but again? And so. That's Dr Campbell. Who is pretty cautious with what he says. In a time. It's still early so it's like yeah you have to keep keep evaluating that but it does look like there may be a possibility that we're not best people are so they can be. I saw that as well. Yeah Yeah but that doesn't prevent people from getting reinfected by mutation by different strand exactly and it's Brian Spreading. It seems like it's likely that it's going to mutate. And there's already two strands circulating actually. Yeah so one is more severe than the other. Yep Yeah anything else that we want to talk about today. What are some of the other downstream effects one? Actually I'll mention this quickly One thing that could happen is that there are either copycat attacks or a pylon attacks. Says something that Jordan Hall? He wrote a really great article. summarizing a lot of these kinds of facts that are likely going to happen or could happen anyway And so you know with this kind of crisis if somebody wanted to do bio weapon attack or Cyberattack Because people are more vulnerable. They're not paying attention. And there's already this pathogen circulating you know now. It would be the time to do that. So it's possible that we might see kind of you know other things happening and Something that Joe Brewer mentioned. Does that A lot of the time in nature when you have one kind of natural disaster. There's often clusters of other natural disasters because it's the system right so things are connected so when one things off balance it causes other things to backfires well so We we could also see natural things going down that might further destabilize systems. I am curious in this would just be an exercise but I'm curious to to kind of visualize this outcomes. Let's say you know a certain amount of time passes and an emergency. Ub is utilized. What's which kind of Which of these downstream effects are actually rendered Ineffective or not a problem. Well the the the financial precarity is definitely At least it would take the edge off. Yeah and the the medical question as well it would potentially potentially produce better. It would only ever be a thousand bucks or maybe a little bit more of the American medical systems pretty messed up still. But that's that's probably not going to have much of an effect. I in specially because the medical System the choke point there is the number of Ventilators the number of doctors in the beds available. Which is limited? And it's not going to be improved by so it's mainly just thought. Yeah taking taking off the Financially precarious situation. So what that's going to improve as probably the mental wellbeing of people Which also has an effect on immunity? Yes yes absolutely people when they're under stress it Worsens their immunity also. It will probably have an effect on Domestic violence and things like that because when people are in a in a very precarious situation at always exasperates domestic violence and people's dependency on others who might not actually be good for them. So for example. Let's say you know. Single mom might have to go back to her abusive ex husband because he has resources if she has. Uba She doesn't have to do that. Yeah so the end the People might feel like They actually have hope they might feel like the they can survive this. If they see that light at the end of the tunnel that they have this bit of support it might reduce the rates of suicide and depression. And things like that. Y- theoretically anyway. What were some of the other deaths from effects that you've mentioned or that we've seen actually the one that Jordan Hall or the the Big List that George yes. Oh though it'd be worth the first one was medical system collapse Second is the financial issues. Third one is broad societal financial collapse. So you be. I might actually help for this because it keeps. The economy circulating keeps them money circulating so it might have some positive effects because a cash shortage so in in two thousand eight financial crisis it it was not a cash shortage. It was Like they were able to fix it at the bank level in this case. It's a cash shortage so there is simply people are not buying so it doesn't matter if you're selling things super cheap or if you're you know giving it away just people aren't buying so but if you inject cash into society with Hubei it might actually help. I mean the other questions like do you. Do we want to keep this financial system going or is it is a time for a renewal then again colon then again in a in a collapse it always has cascading effects so it's preferable to have a more smooth transition rather than you know. Just let things die Next okay so there was The copycat attacks Which a lot of that. A lot of that kind of the attack is related to the nihilism in joker kind of meam of wanting to reflect the world back at itself Jordan. Peterson has talked about this time. The young man that hits the bottom and then decide society is wrong and fucked and I want to destroy all of that. A lot of that would change if people weren't so stuck at the bottom so that's another thing I think would actually have a very positive effect prime rate. That's obvious Ryan Right. Yeah Yeah I mean we we can look at. The study is if you be. I that they've done in in different places and see the positive effects like you know Domestic abuse goes down significantly. Entrepreneurship goes up teenage pregnancies. Go Down Kids. Staying in schools goes up The entrepreneurship that that's a good one like the the ability to innovate pursue projects. People want to do but can't because their stock yeah. There's a lot of different things like that but I think we we can't predict how positive of an impact there would be. Yeah and especially now when a lot of people might be feeling more more altruistic or like they really want to help out In like they're going to be needed in if they have that bit of a a safety net. It might enable them to do that so it could. It may will produce a bunch of projects that might be very pro social and helpful. Let's see The next there was well authoritarianism. That's actually a risk of that is goes up when you have you. Bi because when you have people by the balls with a skew bi then. There is a precedent to increase surveillance increased. Different rules So that's a risk you know. I've mentioned that I've heard other people mentioned that before. But the the system like we mentioned before this system that were locked into already has by the bolts. So if you take away our slave wage and give us a free wage. It's not the outcome is not that much different. We're still depended except the in one of these scenarios. We have something in another in another one. We have nothing. It's different because the the entity that is providing the wages different so the feedback loop is very direct in the case of UB. I it's it's the government providing the money so the government can have rules that come along with that so you know they could institute some sort of a social credit score like if your social credit score goes below a certain range than you. Don't get the guy and they can include any number of rules in that like you know. This is how what they used to control people in China in this lockdown they. I'm sure they use the social credit score. Like if you leave Corentin if you get out of your house or if you like you know posted on social media about anything that's actually going down. Your Social Credit score goes down. Then you can't get a mortgage can get a job can get a plane ticket you know etc so it's it's very. I think it's very important that if this could be I goes into effect that People Review it people who understand these questions understand these possibilities Make sure that it's It doesn't come with these rules attached. That's still leaves the possibility that they might get attached later once. People are already receiving the money and that's going to be difficult to prevent but the so. I'm just saying this because people will just have to keep an eye on this. I think this is probably a place we should drop up starting to get cranky David thanks for doing the camera switching and adding some stuff to the to the conversation. Alex thank you for being mostly okay. he pretty wet. Does that gross? Thanks for doing what you do me. Thanks for looking so good and we'll see you next time. If you like this content you might WanNa check out our seven ways to adapt to the future guidebook. Get it for free at future thinkers dot org slash sign up. You might also want to check out. Our Future thinkers membership area. We have courses there to help you. Adapt to the changing world build resilience upgrade culture and society and create meaning and purpose in your life as well you'll get access to our community all of our unreleased content private zoom calls live. Cuny's with guests workshops and events and more just go to members dot future thinkers dot org every month. We ran a contest where we give away. One month of the future thinkers membership for free. Check that out at future thinkers dot org slash giveaway and if you enjoy this video please like Sharon comment. It really helps let our show more than you know. And if you want more likely than subscribe and hit that belly to be notified of new videos see next time.

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Show 365: Feat. Actor & Musician Lawrence Gilliard Jr.

From the Top with Host Christopher O'Riley

1:10:18 hr | 1 year ago

Show 365: Feat. Actor & Musician Lawrence Gilliard Jr.

"Support for this NPR podcast and the following message. Come from Columbia records presenting multi-platinum singer-songwriter hose ear holes ears in new album. Wasteland baby is available everywhere. Now, thanks for downloading from the tops podcast acting LARs Gillyard junior. And I'm taking a break from my work as an HBO is the deuce to be your from the top guest host this week. So believe it or not I grew up studying classical music, and it is amazing to be back around the discipline of classical musicians. It's been a while and what an honor to be selected as guest host for the show that celebrates walnut hill school for the arts easily one of the coolest places to study the arts as a teenager. I was amazed by the skill and artistry of all the performers, and I hope that you will be to enjoy. From NPR. It's from the Tom celebrating the power of music in the hands of America's kids. Today's guest host actor and clarinetist Lawrence Gillyard junior. Wow. Wow. It's been an amazing. It's just been a joy, it's been an amazing weekend. I've gotten to hear some amazing young talented musicians and professional musicians and putting the show together has been great and wonderful return to my roots in classical music. Most people know me now as an actor. You know, me from my roles is Bob stuckey on the Walking Dead or from my role is the Angelo Barksdale on the wire. Or if you go back, you know, me as Derek Wallace from the waterboy, or if you come forward, you know, me currently as Chris Allston on the HBO show, the deuce. But what a lot of people don't know about me is that before I was bitten by the acting bug. I was a classical clarinetist. Yes, I studied clarinet at the Baltimore school for the arts. And then I went on to study clarinet at the Juilliard school. So hosting this episode is extra special for me. Because today, I get to hang out with my music. Peeps. And it also makes it special for me today because I was chosen to host the show that celebrates the one hundred and twenty fifth anniversary of the walnut hill school for the arts. Those of you who aren't familiar the one at school for the arts is an independent boarding school in the town of Natick right outside of Boston. And because they're celebrating their one hundred and twenty fifth year all of the performance on the show today will be either turn students or alum of the school our first performers. I want you guys to welcome fourteen. Members of the walnut hill string chamber orchestra. One of the violinists is at the might eighteen year old Sean deal. I got a homie in Harlem, he prefers, Sean. So did you like, Sean, Sean sounds good Shawn's good shot? It is Sean. What are you guys going to be playing today? We're gonna be playing the last movement of verge rocks American string quartet, which of course, was originally written for string quartet, but we'll be playing it as a small string orchestra for you. So hope you enjoy awesome. Okay. Well, when you guys are ready take it from the top. Wong hills string chamber orchestra teenagers from one that hill for the arts playing the finale from voice string quartet number twelve American. Now, we have two of the members of the ensemble eighteen year old violin, Sean, don't call me. Sean deal. And bases. Jualita sign. They're both with me here at the Mike. So guys first of all my first question is why didn't divorce you think of that? Right. I mean that was just outstanding. It's so big and so full with that with the string orchestra, Sean as you said before it was originally written for Cortez, and you played it. And how does it feel to play it in a big band? It's completely different. When it's just a court. You're only working with the other musician. So you don't have to worry about getting your own part together with other musicians, but doing that with string orchestra. It's a lot different 'cause you have to balance both aspects. So it makes it much more difficult. However, I think the result is much more exciting. Definitely and DJ alita. I know you were especially excited to play the piece. Can you tell us why? Yeah. So this piece doesn't normally have base in it. It's just in chamber quartet setting so to violence Phelan cello, but I've actually loved this piece for really long time for a while. It was actually my morning alarm. So I would wake up to this piece every single day. That's how much I loved it. And so when I heard that I was going to get the opportunity to finally play it. I was just over the moon because it's just one of my favorite pieces. Awesome. And you're both committed to this really intense program at walnut hill, ju- leader of heard you say that the school is important to you. Yeah. Wall hill has quite frankly, changed my life. I've had the privilege of studying walnut hill for the entire for years of my high school, and it has made me such a passionate person about my art just being surrounded by such incredibly inspiring young musicians and being able to live with them and being able to spend my entire day with them just for her sing and making music together. It has shaped me into who. I am today. And I know I would not be as passionate about music as I am today. Had I not attended walnut hill and Sean for you. It was the teacher that you started with when you started at the school. Yes. So my first freshman year, walnut hill, I was with a teacher who's my fifth year with him. And he was he was a fantastic teacher. But five years is a lot of time when teacher so my sophomore year, I made the switch to current teachers even Kim which was got to be one of the best musical decisions. I've ever made. I've completely changed as an artist and a musician. I don't think I would be here. If it wasn't for his guidance, which of course, isn't to say that the school it self didn't change me as an artist, but he packed a lot. It's important. Just having a good teacher like, yeah. Teacher really affect you. Well, let me tell you. If it was up to me. I'd have everybody come back out and play that piece again, I love it like that everyone ju- lead us on and Sean don't call me, Sean deal. Members of the he'll stream chamber orchestra. Over the last thirteen years from the top and the Jack kente cook foundation have awarded over two and a half million dollars in scholarships to talented young musicians who have financial need. We still have more to give could from the top dot org to learn more Lawrence, thanks, JoAnne. So if you're just joining us today is the show where we're celebrating the one hundred and twenty fifth birthday of walnut hill school for the arts the celebrated arts high school outside of Boston. Now our second performer, graduated from walnut hill school. When did you graduate two thousand seven two thousand seven and you were also on from the top back when you were fifteen right? That's correct. So, ladies and gentlemen, please. Welcome back to from the top walnut hill. Elim Cellis, Tony Rymer. Now, Tony we've gotten to hang out a little bit over the weekend and chat. And I know that there's some guilt weighing heavy on your heart. I want to say that you know, right here. You're full of our house of walnut hill, faculty and staff as a matter of fact, the headmaster Antonio Viva is in the house Lawrence. Nope. Nope. Don't start me. Tony. I think now is the perfect time for you to let release. What is because I think it'll be better coming from you than me, bro released. What it is that you did when you were in school that was a private conversation, dude. I'm from Hollywood. There's nothing private Hollywood. Well, I guess I have to say it now. Ms castle and all the staff that on the hill. I'm sorry. When I was a student there. I used to break the curfew and sneak out of my dorm at five in the morning. And climate a window of Highland to practice scales. That's awesome. You got that off your chest. Oh. And I'm sure that now the one school is going to double down on that diploma after they hear you play. Or take it away. Please welcome Tony Rymer. And the excellent pianist Jong are bound. What do you guys are going to be performing? We're going through playing lest movement. The third movement of Schumann's fantasy pieces regionally for clarinet and piano, and in this version for cello, piano. Sony rhymer originally from the Boston area perform the third of Robert Schumann fantasy pieces along with Joe Bong. Now for those of you listening. ANC? I'm writing out. Tony second diploma. Which reads to Tony rhymer for being exceptional do the power and just the control that you have any instrument. That was just amazing. Can we give them another one? Now, you've play with some of the biggest iss